1 Division of Administrative Hearings
2 Department of Administration, State of Florida
3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE)
OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; )
4 and WEDGEWORTH FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, )
5 V ) DOAH Case No.:92-3038
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT)
6 DISTRICT, an agency of the )
State of Florida, et al., )
7 _____________Respondents._____)
8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, )
INC.; UNITED STATES SUGAR )
9 CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE )
SOUTH, INC., )
10 Petitioners, )
V ) DOAH Case No.:92-3039
11 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT)
DISTRICT, an agency of the )
12 State of Florida, et al., )
_____________Respondents._____)
13
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
14 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;)
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )
15 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, )
16 V ) DOAH Case No.:92-3040
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT)
17 DISTRICT, an agency of the )
State of Florida, et al., )
18 _____________Respondents._____)
19
Deposition of Jose Vidal, Ph.D.
20
Taken before Robin L. Merker, Court
21 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of
Florida at large, pursuant to notice of taking
22 deposition filed by the Petitioners in the above cause.
23 - - -
Thursday, October 1, 1992
24 319 Clematis Street
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
25 9:05 - 12:00 p.m.
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Petitioners Florida Sugar
Cane League, Inc., United States Sugar Corp,
3 and New Hope, Inc.:
4 Peeples, Earl & Blank, P.A.
215 South Monroe Street
5 Suite 350
Tallahassee, Florida 32301
6 By: WILLIAM HYDE, ESQUIRE
7 On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD:
8 South Florida Water Management District
3301 Gun Club Road
9 West Palm Beach, Florida 33146-4680
By: RUTH P. CLEMENTS, ESQUIRE
10
On behalf of the Intervenor, United States of
11 America:
12 THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQUIRE
Assistant United States Attorney
13 155 South Miami Avenue
Suite 600
14 Miami, Florida 33130-1693
15 ALSO PRESENT:
16 CURTIS D. POLLMAN
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 - - -
2 I N D E X
3 - - -
4 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
5 JOSE VIDAL, Ph.D.
6 BY MR. HYDE: 4
7
- - -
8
E X H I B I T S
9
- - -
10 Vidal Exb. No. 1 7
Curriculum vitae of Jose L. Vidal
11
Vidal Exb. No. 2 48
12 Memorandum dated 2-20-92 from Jose Vidal to
Thomas Fontaine
13
Vidal Exb. No. 3 86
14 Total Phosphorus procedures
15 Vidal Exb. No. 4 90
4500-P Phosphorus methods
16
Vidal Exb. No. 5 99
17 Phosphorus, All forms
18 Vidal Exb. No. 6 117
Orthophosphate Procedure
19
Vidal Exb. No. 7 118
20 Everglades Nutrient Removal
21
22
23
24
25
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 - - -
4 MS. CLEMENTS: I'd like to make a
5 statement here as to the expertise he will be
6 testifying to. It will be as to assessing the
7 methodology used to analyze water for nutrient
8 concentrations and the QA/QC procedures for --
9 procedures for water quality analyses. We will
10 be providing an expert as to soil analysis at a
11 later time.
12 You can go ahead and swear in the witness.
13 Thereupon,
14 JOSE VIDAL, Ph.D.
15 being by the undersigned Notary Public first duly
16 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
17 THE WITNESS: I do.
18 DIRECT (JOSE VIDAL, Ph.D.)
19 BY MR. HYDE:
20 Q. Okay.
21 Would you please state your full name and
22 home address for the record, please?
23 A. Yes. Jose L. Vidal. 12220 Southwest
24 103rd Terrace, Miami, Florida, 33186.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Vidal.
5
1 Do you prefer being addressed as Dr.
2 Vidal?
3 A. No, that's fine. Call me Jose. That will
4 be fine.
5 Q. Okay.
6 I'd like to start off with a few questions
7 about your educational background, particularly
8 relating to the area of expertise that your counsel
9 said you would be offered in.
10 Would you please begin with your college
11 degree and the area or your major?
12 A. Okay. Yes.
13 I go to -- got my doctor in science degree
14 in Spain in 1974 -- excuse me, 1969. And after that my
15 Ph.D. degree at the University of Florida, Gainesville,
16 in 1974.
17 Q. When you --
18 A. The major -- I'm sorry.
19 Q. Which institution in Spain?
20 A. University of Santiago, Spain.
21 Q. Okay.
22 What was your undergraduate major there?
23 A. Undergraduate was in chemistry.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. And my Ph.D., again, was inorganic with a
6
1 minor in analytical chemistry.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Just to make sure, you said you had --
4 your Ph.D. is in inorganic?
5 A. Inorganic.
6 Q. And a minor in organic?
7 A. In analytical chemistry.
8 Q. Oh, excuse me. Okay.
9 Did you obtain a masters degree anywhere?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. It was not required in the University of
13 Florida.
14 Q. Okay.
15 Have you done any postgraduate studies?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Have you engaged in any teaching
19 activities --
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. -- since your obtaining your degrees?
22 Perhaps it would be a good opportunity,
23 just to give me a copy of your resume?
24 A. I just have my copy. You're welcome to
25 it.
7
1 (A short off-the-record discussion was
2 held.)
3 (Thereupon, the document was marked Vidal
4 Exb. No. 1 for Identification.)
5 BY MR. HYDE:
6 Q. Dr. Vidal, is Exhibit No. 1 your personal
7 C.V.?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And is the information contained in this
11 C.V. true and accurate to the best of your
12 recollection?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay.
15 I believe before we took our short break
16 that I had just asked you if you held any teaching
17 positions. Are those positions set forth in detail on,
18 I believe, the third page of Exhibit 1?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Let me ask you a few questions about your
22 1986 to 1987 tenure as director-lecturer for Corporate
23 Coal Chemistry seminars. What specifically was that
24 job?
25 A. Okay.
8
1 I was director of the research center for
2 Westmoreland Coal Company. That's an analytical
3 support group conducting testing in coal and water for
4 the -- for the corporation.
5 Now, with respect to the teaching
6 assignment or teaching task there, I organized coal
7 seminars across the company for the employees,
8 management of the company, and, on this specific detail
9 here, I'm referring that I was the organizer, director
10 and lecturer at that seminar.
11 Q. Okay.
12 And I believe page two indicates that you
13 were a research scientist for Union Carbide for the
14 years 1974 to 1986?
15 A. Yes. My last title there was lecturer
16 there.
17 Q. And it was from Union Carbide that you
18 went to the Corporate Coal Chemistry seminars?
19 A. That's correct. West -- to Westmoreland
20 Coal Company.
21 Q. Okay.
22 Why did you move from Union Carbide
23 Corporation to Westmoreland Coal Company?
24 A. The position I had was eliminated after
25 the Bhopal incident. When the company eliminated
9
1 across -- 6,000 positions, I was the last one.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Do you recall who your supervisor was
4 while you were there at that time?
5 A. Yeah, sure. George -- Dr. George L.
6 O'Connor, Sr., research fellow of Union Carbide
7 Corporation.
8 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is he still
9 at Union or --
10 A. No. He retired in 1987.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Moving on now to your position with
13 Westmoreland Coal Company, what did you do for them?
14 A. Describing -- it's described on page two.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Would that statement there be a fair and
17 accurate summary of what you actually did during that
18 time?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And from Westmoreland Coal Company, where
22 did you go?
23 A. I came here.
24 Q. Okay.
25 That was in 1987?
10
1 A. That's correct, sir.
2 Q. Okay.
3 What was your first position with the
4 South Florida Water Management District?
5 And just for purposes of our subsequent
6 questions, I'll just refer to it as being the District.
7 A. Yes. I started as a senior chemist.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. That's supervising the day shift.
10 Q. Okay.
11 There's a night shift too?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 What did your duties as laboratory
15 supervisor of the day shift entail?
16 A. It was, you know, control of the staff
17 with respect to administrative and technical duties is
18 the best way to summarize.
19 Q. Did you do any hands-on work yourself, or
20 was your position more of a supervisory one?
21 A. It was more of a supervisory one.
22 Q. Okay.
23 I note that in 1990 you became a
24 supervising professional chemist?
25 A. Yes.
11
1 Q. How did that position differ from the
2 senior chemist status?
3 A. The senior chemist reports to the
4 supervising professional chemist.
5 Q. Okay.
6 So you, in effect, became the supervisor
7 of the senior chemist?
8 A. That's correct. That's a good --
9 Q. What does a supervising professional
10 chemist do?
11 A. It's more responsibility than a senior
12 chemist, intake the data.
13 Q. To whom did you report in that role?
14 A. To the director of the laboratory.
15 Q. And that is whom?
16 A. Mary Lou Daniels.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And I note now that I guess you're interim
19 division director?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Is that correct?
22 A. No. After -- that's not correct now.
23 After Mary Lou Daniels left in 1991,
24 October 25th, I became the acting or interim division
25 director and I have been still up to September 21st.
12
1 Q. Okay.
2 Who is now the division director?
3 A. Maxine Cheesman. She joined us on
4 September 23rd, or something like that.
5 Q. Okay.
6 You will continue to report to her at this
7 point?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. What were your responsibilities as the
10 interim division director?
11 A. Well, I have to take care of all overall
12 administrative managerial duties of the laboratory,
13 hiring new personnel, participate in the policies of
14 the director who followed -- you mean that --
15 Q. While you were in that interim position,
16 to whom did you report?
17 A. To Dr. Leslie Wedderburn.
18 Q. Who is Dr. Wedderburn?
19 A. That's the Department's director for the
20 Water Research and Evaluation Department.
21 Q. Okay.
22 Let's move on now to, I guess, page four
23 of your C.V. under a subheading of professional
24 activities, societies, invited lectures.
25 A. Okay.
13
1 Q. I note here a National Science Foundation
2 position of -- from 1977 to 1986. What did that
3 include?
4 A. Well, a correction. That's not a
5 position.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. It describes a series of activities
8 during -- done under the National Science Foundation
9 while working at Union Carbide Corporation.
10 Q. Were you paid by the National Science
11 Foundation?
12 A. No, sir. No, sir.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Was this something that you were expected
15 to do as part of your employment for Union Carbide?
16 A. No, sir. You are selected on the basis of
17 your publications and, quote, unquote, reputation in
18 the field in order to help in the National Science
19 Foundation to award grants and money to the different
20 proposals.
21 Q. Okay.
22 So this is, in effect, a professional
23 honor being accorded to you to do this?
24 A. I would call it that way if you want to.
25 Q. Okay.
14
1 And it says here that you evaluated
2 personally 20 academic proposals during that time.
3 A. Yes. I don't know how many. It could be
4 16 to 24.
5 Q. Okay.
6 (Thereupon, Mr. Fitzgerald entered the
7 deposition room.)
8 BY MR. HYDE:
9 Q. I note also that you were a reviewer of
10 scientific publications during that approximate time
11 frame?
12 A. Um-hum. That's correct.
13 Q. Are the three publications listed here,
14 the Journal of Organometallic Chemistry, Inorganic
15 Chemistry and Journal of the American Chemical Society,
16 are those three separate publications?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Again, were you compensated for any of
20 that work?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. Okay.
23 And then I see a series of invited
24 lectures from 1977 to 1986.
25 A. That's correct.
15
1 Q. Is that an all-inclusive list of lectures
2 you delivered during that time frame?
3 A. I think most of them would be there.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Have you done any work for the National
6 Science Foundation since 1986?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Or for other scientific publications?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Or invited lectures?
12 A. Yes. I have two here at the bottom.
13 Q. Why did you cease doing work for the
14 National Science Foundation?
15 A. Because I went out of the field where I
16 was working with them.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And what was the field that you were
19 working with them?
20 A. Organometallic chemistry in catalytic
21 application of the transition metal carbonyl clusters.
22 And when I went from Carbide to Westmoreland Coal
23 Company I stopped working in that field.
24 Q. Okay.
25 So that was the only reason for the cutoff
16
1 then that you just sort of switched disciplines at that
2 time?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Tell me a bit about your invited lecture
6 number 15 concerning water quality in South Florida,
7 January 1992.
8 A. Yes. It was a professor from the South
9 Broward Community College that called the
10 communications office of the District, you know, trying
11 to get somebody to give a talk there on water quality.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And they suggested my name. He called me,
14 invited me. I had agreed and I went there and gave the
15 talk.
16 Q. Okay.
17 What kind of lecture was this?
18 A. It was on pesticides in groundwater --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. -- and so forth.
21 Q. Was this a lecture to chemistry students
22 or was --
23 A. It was a lecture to chemistry students.
24 Basically he was the director of a club, environmental
25 club or environmental organization there, and he wanted
17
1 his students to be exposed to, you know, to this kind
2 of talk. And I gave the talk for him.
3 Q. And could -- can you identify the name of
4 that instructor?
5 A. I don't remember, but it's easy to locate
6 if -- I think that he's still the director of the
7 environmental student organization.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Do you recall whether other professors
10 were in attendance at that, or was it mainly a student
11 oriented type of lecture?
12 A. He was present, and I think it was mainly
13 students. I don't know who was in the audience.
14 Q. Okay.
15 I see a second listing here, Item 16,
16 water analyses techniques at the University of Miami in
17 March of 1991.
18 A. Yes. That was -- I was an adjunct
19 professor, an associate adjunct professor at the
20 University of Miami and in the research group where I
21 was one time I presented, you know, the techniques that
22 we do, and so it was sort of a -- what do you call
23 it -- a group seminar, whatever.
24 Q. Okay.
25 These are the same type of water analysis
18
1 techniques that you employ in your performance at the
2 District?
3 A. Yes. But -- although the presentation was
4 from a different point of view. In this case, on
5 number 16, I was talking about from the point of view
6 of the organometallic chemistry so away from the...
7 Q. What is an adjunct associate professor as
8 opposed to an associate professor?
9 A. It's a person that is not paid for the --
10 by the University, and you put a lot of hours of work
11 in there.
12 Q. Okay.
13 But they still accord the title of
14 professor?
15 A. Yes. That's what they gave me on the
16 paper.
17 Q. Okay.
18 (Thereupon, Curtis Pollman entered the
19 deposition room and a discussion was held off
20 the record.)
21 MR. HYDE: Let's go back on the record.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
23 BY MR. HYDE:
24 Q. While we were off the record I believe you
25 noted that you were actually compensated for your
19
1 service as an adjunct associate professor at Miami
2 Dade?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Approximately how much?
6 A. I don't know. It was about -- I don't
7 remember, but I would say $400 a month, or something
8 like that. No more than that.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And for -- is that for all 12 months of
11 the year?
12 A. If I was teaching in the summer, yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Let's move on now to the list of
15 publications -- publications on your C V.
16 MR. HYDE: Tom, we're going through the
17 C.V. right now, but we don't have an extra copy
18 for you.
19 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
20 record.)
21 BY MR. HYDE:
22 Q. I note here a list of U.S. patents. Are
23 these patents that have been obtained through the, I
24 guess, Federal Patent Office --
25 A. Yes, sir.
20
1 Q. -- that you're referring to?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Give me an idea of some of these patents
5 particularly, excuse me, as they might relate to the
6 opinions that you might be rendering in this
7 litigation. Are there any that specifically relate to
8 that, or are directly related to your employer's
9 efforts in preparation for this upcoming hearing?
10 A. I would say directly not. Indirectly,
11 probably, you may -- no, not really. None of these are
12 related.
13 Q. Does that hold true for the category of
14 molten salts?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And boron too?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Okay.
19 What about transition metals, metal
20 clusters, inorganic synthesis and homogeneous
21 catalysis?
22 A. They're not related to environmental
23 problems.
24 Q. Okay. Okay.
25 Are there any other publications that you
21
1 have that are not listed in this list of publications
2 of your C.V.?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So this is an all-inclusive list at this
5 point?
6 A. I think so, sir.
7 Q. Okay. Okay.
8 Have you ever been involved in any
9 lawsuits as a party or a witness before?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Have you ever been involved in any prior
13 depositions preparatory to actual litigation?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay.
16 So I take it that you've never -- never
17 offered any expert testimony in any administrative or
18 judicial proceeding?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Okay. Okay.
21 Let me ask you a few questions about your
22 involvement with the development of the current
23 Everglades SWIM plan.
24 You know what I'm referring to when I say
25 the current Everglades SWIM plan, do you not?
22
1 A. That's correct, sir.
2 Q. What, if anything, have you had to do with
3 the development of that plan?
4 A. Directly, perhaps supervising the group
5 when we analyze some parts related to the ideas covered
6 by SWIM plan, but that's actually -- I didn't -- I did
7 not have any participation in other activities of the
8 SWIM plan.
9 Q. Did you write of the effects of the SWIM
10 plan?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Did you contribute directly toward anyone
13 else's effort at writing a portion of the SWIM plan?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Do you anticipate that you will be doing
17 anything in the future concerning the development of
18 the SWIM plan or additional drafts or amendments of it?
19 A. I have no idea.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Who are the other persons that you've been
22 working with who have assisted in the District's work
23 towards the development of the SWIM plan?
24 A. (No response.)
25 Q. You said that you had been supervising the
23
1 staff?
2 A. It was somebody that worked with me.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. That as -- as a senior chemist or
5 supervising professional also later on that was
6 attending in 1989 SWIM project related meetings, and
7 that's all.
8 Q. Okay.
9 And who was that person?
10 A. Dr. Bill Donovan.
11 Q. Donovan?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Is Dr. Donovan still with the District?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 In what capacity does he currently serve?
18 A. He's in the regulation department.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Is that a separate branch of the agency
21 from your --
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. -- department?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. What does his office do as opposed to what
24
1 your office does?
2 A. I don't know his present duties.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Identify for me, if you will, some other
5 persons whom you would consider to be very
6 knowledgeable in your field of endeavor.
7 A. Define my field of endeavor as?
8 Q. I guess it would be inorganic chemistry
9 and/or analytic chemistry.
10 A. Well, really very good people like
11 Professor Albert Cotton.
12 Q. Where is he employed?
13 A. Texas A&M University.
14 Jeffrey Wilkinson in London, in London
15 Queens College in Imperial College in London. You have
16 at the University of Florida, Gus Palenik, who was a
17 professor of mine at the department of chemistry and,
18 you know, on and on.
19 Q. Are any of those persons involved directly
20 or indirectly in development of the Everglades SWIM
21 plan?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Are there any people that you know to be
25 involved in the development of the Everglades SWIM plan
25
1 that you would consider to be very knowledgeable in
2 either of those fields that I just mentioned?
3 A. Actually the people that I know are
4 involved with the SWIM plan work for the District in
5 different positions. And I don't know what they do for
6 the SWIM plan, or whatever, what their representative
7 assignments are in that respect.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Have you discussed the SWIM plan with any
10 of the scientists that are representing outside
11 interests, such as the agricultural community,
12 regarding the SWIM plan?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Not even within, anybody at the District.
16 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the
17 identities of some of these scientists or their
18 professional positions?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Okay.
21 I've been advised that the District
22 sometimes employs outside firms, private firms to
23 conduct water quality analyses on behalf of the
24 District. Is that a correct statement?
25 A. Up to this point I don't know of any firms
26
1 that have done water analysis for the District.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. There are plans for that, but not up to
4 this point.
5 Q. Okay.
6 You said there are plans for that. Why
7 are there plans?
8 A. Overflow.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Of the current capacity.
11 Q. Do you have any idea of which of those --
12 strike that.
13 Do you have any idea which firms you are
14 going to look to to perform that work, or is this more
15 or less a conceptual stage?
16 A. No, it's not a conceptual stage as such.
17 It was an open proposal request by the District.
18 Several people bid on that or send open proposals. And
19 three companies were selected. PBSJ was one. Toxikon
20 was the other, and the third one was Flowers
21 Laboratory.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Is PBSJ Post, Buckley, Schuh and Jernigan?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Were you involved in that selection
27
1 process?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Who would have been the person or persons
5 at the District that would do that, to the best of your
6 knowledge?
7 A. You mean the selection?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. It was a committee, as far as I recall,
10 that examined the proposals, I mean the response to the
11 proposals request. That was in 19 -- should have been
12 '90 or 1991. And the persons involved, at least some
13 person, I don't know all persons involved, but were
14 Mary Lou Daniels, Richard Pfeuffer, and I assume
15 somebody from procurement were people that I know were
16 involved.
17 Q. That's procurement?
18 A. Procurement.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Do you know whether this outside
21 consulting servicing is to be implemented any time
22 soon?
23 A. I would not call it a consulting service.
24 The service that is contracted is to test, conduct
25 analytical testing in case the number of tests or
28
1 samples sent to the lab overflows our work capacity.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. So how soon, it depends when that point is
4 reached.
5 Now, that's with respect to -- I don't
6 want to -- I want to keep things very objective.
7 That's with respect to water quality samples, what I
8 just mentioned.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Is there some other testing that's
11 contemplated for other parameters?
12 A. The information you may have been
13 referring to was they were -- there are firms that have
14 conducted analysis for the District on organic
15 compounds, or say in other words, pesticides,
16 herbicides and fragments on test soils.
17 Q. Who might some of those firms be?
18 A. That -- the best person to ask about those
19 is Richard Pfeuffer.
20 Q. Okay.
21 How do you spell Mr. Pfeuffer's last name?
22 A. Good question. P F E F F E R, I think.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Actually, it's
24 P F E U F F E R.
25 THE WITNESS: Good for you. Appreciate
29
1 it.
2 BY MR. HYDE:
3 Q. I'd glad I asked, because I've never seen
4 it spelled that way, so...
5 Do you know why the District has looked to
6 outside firms to perform this testing of organic
7 compounds?
8 A. Because we don't have an organic
9 laboratory in-house.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Is that the only reason, to your
12 knowledge?
13 A. As far as I know.
14 Q. Okay.
15 Prior -- I think at the beginning of our
16 deposition your counsel stated that you would be
17 offering expert testimony on -- in the areas of
18 inorganic chemistry and analytic chemical industry. Is
19 that --
20 MS. CLEMENTS: No, no. I said he'd be
21 offering testimony as to water analysis, QA/QC
22 procedures as to water analysis.
23 MR. HYDE: I stand corrected.
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. The interrogatory answers that were
30
1 provided by the District identify you, as your general
2 area of expertise, as being chemistry, analytical
3 chemistry and environmental chemistry.
4 Do you intend to offer any expert
5 testimony in any other areas of expertise?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Differentiate for me, if you will,
9 chemistry from analytical chemistry.
10 A. Chemistry is -- when you're talking about
11 chemistry you're covering all different applications of
12 chemical concepts. That could go from the non-carbon
13 related, non-carbon containing materials to carbon
14 containing materials.
15 In other words, that's going from
16 inorganic to organic chemistry and analytical chemistry
17 is application of techniques to know in composition,
18 elemental composition or any other type of properties
19 that you want on those terms.
20 Q. And what is environmental chemistry?
21 A. Environmental chemistry is related to the
22 effect or the presence of any of these materials that
23 we mentioned before on the different aspects of the
24 environment. That could be atmospheric to water to
25 soils.
31
1 Q. Okay.
2 Can one obtain an undergraduate or
3 graduate degree in the area of, quote, analytical
4 chemistry?
5 A. Sure.
6 Q. What about environmental chemistry?
7 A. Sure.
8 Q. Do any of your degrees pertain to those
9 two fields?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay.
12 As clarified by your counsel, I believe
13 you're going to be offering some testimony, some
14 testimony as to the methodology to sample water for
15 nutrient concentration, concentration and QA/QC
16 procedures for water quality sampling; is that correct?
17 MS. CLEMENTS: Objection. That's not what
18 I said. He is not going to be testifying as to
19 sampling. There will be later experts as to
20 sampling.
21 MR. HYDE: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
23 MS. CLEMENTS: He's going to testify as
24 only to the QA/QC procedures used for analyzing
25 water samples.
32
1 MR. HYDE: I'm sorry.
2 MS. CLEMENTS: That's quite all right.
3 BY MR. HYDE:
4 Q. Just for purposes of the record, what does
5 the phrase QA/QC mean?
6 A. Quality assurance/quality control.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Would you run down the basic opinions that
9 you intend to offer regarding that subject matter?
10 A. What do you mean by run down?
11 Q. Well, list for me what general opinions
12 you intend to offer in that regard.
13 A. My opinion is -- you want a summary of my
14 opinion concerning what?
15 Q. Well, I presume that you will be offering
16 some testimony as to -- some expert testimony as to
17 quality assurance/quality control procedures for water
18 quality sampling.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And what I'm trying to do --
21 MS. CLEMENTS: Excuse me.
22 MR. HYDE: Water quality analysis.
23 MS. CLEMENTS: (Shakes head up and down.)
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. I would just like to, you know, get a
33
1 general synopsis of what that testimony would be, and
2 then go into the specific facts or basis for your
3 opinions in that regard. I mean it may be something
4 very simple, such as the District employees do great
5 water quality sampling.
6 A. Okay.
7 I was missing what -- I knew you were
8 asking me my overall testimony, but I was missing to --
9 in what respect you wanted that testimony to be; in
10 other words, concerning what is what I cannot
11 understand, your question in that respect.
12 Q. Well, concerning in preparation for this
13 upcoming hearing, what kind of testimony do you intend
14 to offer in this hearing?
15 A. It depends on the questions. If you
16 want -- if you are talking about the quality of the
17 work done by the chemistry lab of the District, is that
18 your question?
19 Q. Yes. Start out with that subject matter.
20 A. Well, I didn't know. I did not understand
21 your question. I would say that my testimony could be
22 summarized I consider our work and work done by the
23 chemistry lab of the District to be of good to
24 excellent quality.
25 Q. Okay.
34
1 Will you testify as to the actual analytic
2 procedures utilized by the District?
3 A. Yes, I could.
4 Q. Okay.
5 What are those analytical procedures?
6 A. Depends what tests you're talking about.
7 Q. Okay.
8 How long have you been employed by the
9 District?
10 A. Since 1987.
11 Q. Okay.
12 How far back can you testify or -- how far
13 back does your knowledge as to the QA/QC procedures of
14 the District go?
15 A. Okay.
16 Let's describe for 1987 up to now and then
17 from 1987 back.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. From 1987 up to 1991, as supervisor, I
20 have to apply or be sure that my technicians or my
21 staff apply quality assurance plan, quality control
22 aspects of the plan. From 1987 back I was not there.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Did you review -- excuse me.
25 A. Go ahead.
35
1 Q. Did you review --
2 A. Sorry.
3 Q. -- QA/QC plans that had been promulgated
4 by the District prior to that time?
5 MS. CLEMENTS: Prior to what time?
6 MR. HYDE: 1987.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am aware there was a
8 genetic plan, generic plan approved by DER and
9 issued by the District in 1987, and another one
10 in 1990.
11 BY MR. HYDE:
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And --
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Go ahead.
16 Q. Did you review the QA/QC plans during your
17 tenure with the District to -- prior to their adoption
18 to ensure their accuracy and acceptability?
19 A. No. That was not my responsibility.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Whose responsibility was that?
22 A. Quality assurance officer of the lab at
23 that time.
24 Q. Who was that person?
25 A. Leslie, Mrs. Leslie Teets, T E E T S.
36
1 Q. Okay.
2 Did you assist in the promulgation of
3 those QA/QC plans during that tenure since 1987?
4 A. Go ahead and explain your question. I
5 cannot understand.
6 Q. Did you assist the authors, drafters of
7 those plans --
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. -- in your responsibilities?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Okay.
12 How do you know that the current plans
13 being utilized by the District staff are good, accurate
14 and acceptable plans?
15 A. Okay.
16 I participated in writing, or at least
17 co-authoring the present plan. We used the DER and
18 federal indications we expanded with from the previous
19 plans, and we have followed the quality of the data as
20 it's been generated.
21 Q. Okay.
22 What was the date of that current plan; do
23 you recall?
24 A. January '92.
25 Q. All right.
37
1 I'd like to show you a document, which I'm
2 not going to attach because of its thickness, but it's
3 dated, or it's styled Generic Quality Assurance Plan,
4 July 1987.
5 And on its face it appears to be the
6 document that you're referring to. Could you identify
7 that and see whether it is the document you were
8 referring -- you were just referring to?
9 MS. CLEMENTS: I believe he was
10 referring to 1992 plan, this is the 1987 plan.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is.
12 BY MR. HYDE:
13 Q. I'm sorry, I gave you the wrong one.
14 A. Yes. This is one of those I told you
15 about.
16 Q. I'm sorry, I'll get back to that in a
17 minute. I'm sorry. I gave you the wrong one.
18 A. Okay.
19 Yes, I think this is it. Yes, sir, this
20 is it.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
22 And this is the plan that you were
23 involved in the drafting of?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.
38
1 Who were some other persons who assisted
2 you in that effort?
3 A. Okay.
4 That plan started being drafted by Mary
5 Lou Daniels and Leslie Teets before they left the
6 District. Then they, David Struve and myself, you
7 know, have to get it and ready in shape to pass the DER
8 approval.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Why did one -- or why did the District
11 develop this 1992 comprehensive quality assurance plan?
12 A. To go over, to put together in a single
13 document all the procedures involved from sample
14 collection to sample testing.
15 Q. Okay.
16 By whom has this plan been reviewed to
17 assure its integrity, accuracy and acceptability?
18 A. Florida Department of Environmental
19 Regulation has to approve. I think that the quality
20 assurance officer for the Florida Department of
21 Environmental Regulation.
22 Q. And what is the identity of that person?
23 A. Sylvia Labie.
24 Q. Labie?
25 MR. FITZGERALD: L A B I E.
39
1 BY MR. HYDE:
2 Q. Okay. Good.
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Do you know whether it was reviewed by any
5 other entity or organization?
6 A. (Shakes head side to side.)
7 Q. Okay.
8 Why do you submit it to DER for their
9 review?
10 A. It's a requirement for the plan to be
11 approved and validated.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Is that a requirement of state law, to
14 your knowledge?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Is that requirement found in Chapter 403
18 or Chapter 373, Florida Statutes?
19 A. That I cannot answer.
20 Q. Okay.
21 But it is your understanding that it is a
22 requirement of Florida law?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Okay.
25 How do you ensure, as a supervisor, that
40
1 the methodologies set forth in the Comprehensive
2 Quality Assurance Plan of January 1992 are actually
3 implemented on a day-to-day basis?
4 A. Okay.
5 The supervisors, we have two supervisors
6 in the lab and there's a series of control solutions
7 that technicians or analysts have to use to ensure that
8 their measurements are reliable. Then they have to
9 report those results to their supervisors and they
10 compare the spectral results of those control solutions
11 with, you know, a previously defined acceptability
12 range. And if those results are within those ranges,
13 the measurements are accepted.
14 Q. You mentioned the term acceptability
15 ranges. What do you mean by that?
16 A. Okay.
17 There are, for those solutions that we are
18 talking about, there are expected values, or we call,
19 quote, unquote, true, true values. And they are
20 deviations from those true values, plus or minus
21 deviations that define with, up to a certain extent
22 based on standard deviations the range of
23 acceptability, and that, if parallel with that, this is
24 the acceptability range that you ascribe to that
25 measurement.
41
1 Q. Okay.
2 Is that, in effect, an acknowledgment that
3 there is some variability in scientific analysis of
4 this sort, such that one can't be absolutely precise in
5 each and every regard?
6 A. Absolutely precise, you mean that by
7 precision, you mean that you always obtain the same
8 value?
9 Q. Right.
10 A. Well, that's logically not, you know, not
11 very possible.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Do these acceptability ranges vary by
14 constituents or by testing methodology?
15 A. The ranges themselves numerically, it's
16 absolute value, yes, because it depends on the standard
17 deviation for that test. But what we have in
18 comparison it will not vary because we are taking plus
19 or minus to an extent standard deviation from true
20 value for most of the testing that we conduct.
21 Q. Do you look to some recognized text or
22 guidelines for determining those absolute values and
23 acceptability ranges?
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. Okay.
42
1 A. I myself was not involved in how it was
2 done in 1987, from '87 to 1990, but there are quality
3 assurance tests that are -- I follow, that are followed
4 to the letter.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Can you identify some of those tests?
7 A. Um-hum. It's a test done by Professor
8 Taylor for quality assurance measurement that, you
9 know, we have followed.
10 Q. And what -- do you know where Professor
11 Taylor is employed?
12 A. No, I don't know. I think it-- he is of
13 the -- of the book with the National Bureau Office of
14 Standards, or something like that.
15 Q. Well, there is a published text, I guess?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recall the title of that text?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Are there any other texts that you might
21 look to in that regard?
22 A. I -- we have, you know, several quality
23 assurance tests in the lab.
24 Q. Could you give me a couple more ideas of
25 those books if you --
43
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. -- could, titles or authors?
3 A. I don't remember. No, sir.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Are the control solutions submitted to the
6 analysts as blind samples?
7 A. It depends. The QC, quality control
8 solution, not what we call spikes, no. But the
9 performance samples from independent institutions, yes.
10 Q. What is a spike?
11 A. It's a -- it's a sample that is prepared
12 by adding known concentrations to a previous sample, to
13 a sample that is in that batch. And it's
14 representative of the matrix in the batch.
15 Q. Why would one do that, for what purpose?
16 A. To be sure that your results are accurate,
17 that they reflect exactly the value of the analyzed
18 statistic.
19 Q. And I believe you mentioned that spikes
20 and quality control tests are not submitted to the --
21 as blind samples; isn't that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Why do you not submit them as blind
24 samples?
25 A. Because you want the analyst, when he's
44
1 generating the measurement, to have a way to gauge the
2 quality of the measurement before accepting it.
3 Q. Okay.
4 And is that why the other categories are
5 submitted as blind samples to test and compare?
6 A. The other category is an external check,
7 in addition to all internal in-house checks.
8 Q. Okay.
9 What do you, or more generally, what does
10 the District do to keep or maintain reports on its
11 QA/QC performance?
12 A. Okay.
13 We have -- let's go back to the simple way
14 and then we'll elaborate.
15 There are quality control charts that are
16 kept on the -- for the correct water on the District on
17 the laboratory hallways where the technicians are
18 coming and reporting on a daily basis. There is
19 results that they generate for those quality control
20 samples, understanding by that the spikes and all that,
21 plus the QC's. Then that is reviewed by the
22 supervisor, as I said before, by the quality assurance
23 officer, and those are compiled at the end of the
24 quarter in that quality assurance quarterly report and
25 those are kept in the files.
45
1 Q. Okay.
2 How long are those files maintained?
3 A. At the laboratory we have it up to -- it
4 depends on the storage capacity that we have. And we
5 are getting pretty full, to tell you the truth, and we
6 maintain it at least several years back. And then
7 after that they go to the storage section of the
8 District. And they are stored there, I would say they
9 store it for several years. Exactly, I don't know. I
10 cannot mention.
11 Q. To your knowledge, are those records at
12 some point destroyed or disposed of?
13 A. I am not involved in that, no.
14 Q. How many persons, technical persons work
15 under your employ in the -- as lab technicians, or sort
16 of persons who do this kind of testing?
17 A. Okay. The laboratory staff, is that the
18 question?
19 Q. Yes. I'm excluding from that clerical or
20 secretarial --
21 A. Okay.
22 The --
23 Q. -- persons.
24 A. Okay.
25 We have the laboratory, the division
46
1 director. Then you have the supervising professional.
2 At this moment that's the position I have. As I told
3 you before, there is two laboratory supervisors, and
4 each of those supervisors may have four to five people
5 each at different levels, from analysts to entry
6 technician. And then there is quality assurance group.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Quality assurance group is, of course,
9 headed by a quality assurance officer.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Who are your two lab supervisors at this
12 time?
13 A. Now?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. David Struve and a new person we're
16 hiring.