174

 1           Division of Administrative Hearings
 2      Department of Administration, State of Florida
 3 
      SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE      )
 4    of FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and   )
      WEDGWORTH FARMS, Inc.,              )
 5              Petitioners               )
         V                                )  DOAH Case
 6    SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT      )  No. 92-3038
      DISTRICT, an agency of the State    )
 7    of Florida; et al.,                 )
                Respondents.              )
 8 
      FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.;    )
 9    UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION;    )
      and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC.,           )
10                Petitioners,            )
         V                                )  DOAH Case
11    SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT      )  No. 92-3039
      DISTRICT, an agency of the State    )
12    of Florida; et al.,                 )
                  Respondents.            )
13 
      FLORIDA FRUIT and VEGETABLE         )
14    ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;      )
      W. E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC.,      )
15    and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC.,            )
                    Petitioners,          )
16        V                               )   DOAH Case
      SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT      )   No. 92-3040
17    DISTRICT, an agency of the State    )
      of Florida; et al.,                 )
18                  Respondents.          )
   
19 
                     Deposition of Fritz Stein
20                            VOLUME II
   
21             Taken before Elaine V.  Williams,
     Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for
22   the State of Florida at large, pursuant to notice of
     taking deposition filed by the Department of
23   Environmental Regulation in the above cause.
                             -  -  -
24   Wednesday, March 10, 1993
     3301 Gun Club Road
25   West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
     9:00 a.m.  - 4:10 p.m.
                                                 175

 1    APPEARANCES:
 2 
          On behalf of the Petitioners
 3             Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams, P.A.
               123 S. Calhoon St.
 4             Tallahassee, Florida 32314
               By:  WILLIAM GREEN, ESQUIRE
 5 
          On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD:
 6             South Florida Water Management District
               3301 Gun Club Road
 7             West Palm Beach, Florida  33416-4680
               By:  No appearance
 8 
          On behalf of the Intervenor, United States of America:
 9            Department of Justice
              155 South Miami Avenue, Suite 627
10            Miami, Florida  33130-1693
              BY:  KATHY A. STARK, ESQUIRE
11 
          On behalf of the State of Florida:
12            Department of Environmental Regulation
              Twin Towers Office Building
13            2600 Blair Stone Road
              Tallahassee, Florida  32399-2400
14            By:  LEE M. KILLINGER, ESQUIRE
   
15         Also Present:  Jeffrey J. Ward
                          Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative
16 
                           -  -  -
                                                 176

 1                         -  -  -
 2                      I  N  D  E  X
 3                         -  -  -
 4 
 5  WITNESS:            DIRECT  CROSS  REDIRECT  RECROSS
 6  Fritz Stein
 7 
 8 
 9  BY MR. KILLINGER:    178 (continued)  346
10  BY MS. STARK:                305
11  BY MR. GREEN:                346
12 
13 
                                                 177

 1                         -  -  -
 2                     E X H I B I T S
                           -  -  -
 3 
    NUMBER         PAGE NO.    DESCRIPTION
 4  EXB. NO. 10     180      Fertilizer purchases
    EXB. NO. 11     187      11/10/83 memo to Tschinkel
 5  EXB. NO. 12     195      11/3/87 letter to Finley, etc.
             13     201      Wedgworth statement to Board
 6           14     211      9/1/92 letter to Reckhow, etc.
                              Re: gifts
 7           15     224      7/6/92 letter to Wedgworth,
                              Re: Bion Technologies
 8           16     233      3/18/88 memo to Graydon,
                              Re: BMP pump criteria
 9           17     236      Draft position paper
             18     238      Agenda, Re: CH2MHill meeting
10           19     245      Stein comments, Re: Farm Credit
             20     258      2/6/91 letter to Chiles
11           21     259      Stein comments, Re: SWIM plan
             22     264      3/7/91 letter to Gainesville Sun
12           23     276      8/4/91 letter to congressmen
             24     283      12/31/91 letter to Chiles
13           25     296      open letter, Re: Everglades
             26     326      Surface Water Permit
14           27     334      5/8/87 letter to Fearington,
                               Re: Recommended appointments
                                                 178

 1                    P R O C E E D I N G S
 2                       -  -  -
 3   Thereupon,
 4              Fritz Stein,
 5   being by the undersigned Notary Public previously duly
 6   sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
 7              THE WITNESS:  I do.
 8                      CONTINUED DIRECT (Fritz Stein)
 9   BY MR. KILLINGER:
10       Q.    Yesterday I asked you a fair number of
11   questions and we discussed a lot about farming
12   practices as you know them in the agricultural area,
13   and a lot of your answers were stated from your
14   understanding about what you do on your land, and I
15   gathered from that that you are not necessarily
16   familiar with what other producers do.  Is that a
17   fair statement?
18       A.    That's a fair statement.
19       Q.    How much do you feel like you know about
20   agricultural practices that other farmers in the
21   agricultural area use?  Do you think you are familiar
22   with them?  Do you think they are the same as yours?
23       A.    No, I know they are not the same as mine at
24   present; a year ago, say.  I imagine they are going
25   to be close to mine now.
                                                 179

 1       Q.    You think they are changing their practices
 2   towards yours?
 3       A.    I think they are; not because mine are
 4   better, I think that's just the way the program's
 5   heading.
 6       Q.    What do you think, generally speaking
 7   again, that they do differently or have been doing
 8   differently; that they are changing so that they are
 9   more similar to your method of operation?
10       A.    I don't know these things definitely, but I
11   feel that most of them are going to go to banding
12   like I have been doing.
13       Q.    Do you think most of them do banding now?
14       A.    They may this year.
15       Q.    Did they last year?
16       A.    Probably not as many last year as there are
17   this year.
18       Q.    Do you think that the change is due to BMP
19   requirements?
20       A.    That's one reason, yes; BMP requirements.
21       Q.    Do you know at what level cane growers
22   other than yourself generally tend to maintain their
23   water level in their fields during the crop?
24       A.    No, I don't.
25       Q.    You spoke some yesterday about putting
                                                 180

 1   fertilizer on when you first started the crop.  How
 2   much fertilizer do you generally use?
 3       A.    Me?
 4       Q.    Yes.
 5       A.    I put about 500 pounds in my plant crop.
 6       Q.    Is that per acre?
 7       A.    Per acre.
 8       Q.    What kind of fertilizer is that?
 9       A.    If I can.  You have some records there.  I
10   would rather refer to them.
11             MR. KILLINGER:  We might as well mark this.
12        This will be Exhibit 10.
13             (The document was marked
14             Exb. No. 10.)
15   BY MR. KILLINGER:
16       Q.    All right I have just handed you what I
17   have marked as Exhibit 10.  Do you recognize that?
18       A.    Yes.
19       Q.    What is it, please?
20       A.    It is statements and invoices on fertilizer
21   purchased from Wedgworth, Incorporated.
22       Q.    Were these documents produced by you in
23   connection with this deposition?
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    What do these, at least the first portion
                                                 181

 1   of documents, show?
 2       A.    This shows the type fertilizer I purchased
 3   and used on my farm.
 4       Q.    Okay.  And on certain invoices, and we need
 5   to specify which ones, there are indications of the
 6   contents of the fertilizer; is that correct?
 7       A.    Yes.
 8       Q.    Do you normally use the same kind of
 9   fertilizer on all of your fields?
10       A.    Yes.
11       Q.    What different types of soil preparation do
12   you apply?
13       A.    My plant crop -- I use -- if you are
14   looking at one, 0-7-73, that's my plant fertilizer
15   mix.
16       Q.    And what is that made up of?  Do you know?
17       A.    The ingredients?  The seven there would be
18   triple super phosphate, the 37 would be muriate of
19   potash, the rest are minor elements.
20       Q.    Okay.  So the 0-7-37 is the chemical makeup
21   of the primary components?
22       A.    Right.  Major components.
23       Q.    Why is the zero in the beginning of it?
24       A.    We don't use nitrogen in the Everglades
25   Agricultural Area.
                                                 182

 1       Q.    And in fertilizer terminology usually the
 2   first of the three numbers is for nitrogen?
 3       A.    Right.  N, P and K.  Nitrogen, phosphorus
 4   and potash.
 5       Q.    Okay.
 6       A.    I apply that at the rate of 500 pounds per
 7   acre.  We do this -- this is applied one time every
 8   six years.  Only at the time I plant.
 9       Q.    All right.
10       A.    The amount of phosphorus per acre that I
11   use would equate out to about two-and-a-half pounds
12   per acre on an annual basis.
13       Q.    And that is on a plant crop?
14       A.    That is on my plant crop.
15       Q.    Okay.  Do you use a different fertilizer
16   on --
17       A.    Stubble?
18       Q.    On stubble.  Yes, sir.
19       A.    I think the first ticket shows muriate
20   potash.
21       Q.    Is that the second sheet in?
22       A.    Second sheet, yes.  Muriate potash, that's
23   a 0-0-60.  I apply that at a rate of 350 pounds per
24   acre on my stubble.
25       Q.    Why do you use different fertilizers for
                                                 183

 1   the stubble and plant crop?
 2       A.    Well, on my plant crop I try to get the
 3   minor elements in the soil and from then on I just
 4   use the muriate of potash because, in my experience,
 5   I have been able to grow a decent crop with just that
 6   mix.
 7             MR. GREEN:  Counsel, just for
 8        clarification, my copy of Exhibit 10, on the
 9        back few pages, appears to contain another
10        document besides.  I just wanted to be sure that
11        everyone else had that and that you intended
12        that.
13             MR. KILLINGER:  Yes, I was going to ask a
14        couple of questions about it.  It came to us
15        that way, I believe.  They don't seem to be
16        inherently connected.
17             MR. GREEN:  Fine.
18             THE WITNESS:  The exhibit's coming apart.
19   BY MR. KILLINGER:
20       Q.    If you will turn down in the document, down
21   through to -- I guess we'll identify it by ticket
22   number.  The bottom of the ticket indicates 22431.
23   It is fairly far back in.
24             MS. STARK:  Is there a date on it?
                                                 184

 1   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 2       Q.    There is a date of 9/11/91.  22431.  It is
 3   about in the middle of the invoices.
 4             MR. GREEN:  Where is the number?
 5             THE WITNESS:  At the bottom.
 6   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 7       Q.    The date is up at the top, right beneath
 8   the phone number.
 9       A.    431?
10       Q.    431, yes, sir.
11       A.    Uh-huh.
12       Q.    Can you tell me what that -- I'm sorry.
13   I'll let counsel find it first.
14             MR. GREEN:  I can see it here.  Thank you.
15        Go ahead.
16   BY MR. KILLINGER:
17       Q.    Can you tell me what that invoice is for?
18       A.    That was soil sample that I assume a
19   salesman took and took to South Bay Growers.
20       Q.    Okay.  Why would a salesman take a soil
21   sample?
22       A.    They normally do.
23       Q.    Is that after they fertilize or before?
24       A.    What is the date?  9/11?  I don't know.
25   September '91.  I don't know why they would be taking
                                                 185

 1   one.  Cane had been planted since the middle of
 2   August.  I don't know.
 3       Q.    Well, I believe you told me yesterday that
 4   you don't normally --
 5       A.    Test.
 6       Q.    -- have your soil tested.
 7       A.    Uh-huh.
 8       Q.    Do you know why he would be taking a soil
 9   sample at all?
10       A.    No, I don't.
11       Q.    Do you know why he would be charging you
12   for it?
13       A.    Well, I guess he took it and maybe he and
14   my son might have talked about it.  My son authorized
15   it.  I don't know.
16       Q.    Okay.  But you are not sure?
17       A.    The month doesn't make any sense because
18   that's after it's been planted and before I do any
19   stubble fertilization.
20             MR. GREEN:  Just for clarification, the
21        date you have been talking about Mr. Killinger,
22        is the day of the invoice; is that correct?
23             MR. KILLINGER:  That is correct, yes.
24             MR. GREEN:  But we don't know what the day
25        of the sampling was from this, do we?
                                                 186

 1             THE WITNESS:  No, you don't.
 2             MR. KILLINGER:  My question was more to why
 3        it was being tested, primarily.
 4             MR. GREEN:  Right.
 5   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 6       Q.    There are several invoices in this exhibit
 7   regarding that.  There is another one farther back,
 8   but it appears to be undated, so I just thought I
 9   would pull a representative sample.
10             Okay.  If you would, could you flip back to
11   the other document in this composite exhibit which we
12   just discussed --
13             MR. KILLINGER:  Mr. Green, if you would
14        like me to pull this off and make it a separate
15        exhibit, I don't have any objection to it.
16             MR. GREEN:  Doesn't matter to me.
17             MR. KILLINGER:  I just have a couple
18        questions with about it.
19             MR. GREEN:  Go ahead.
20   BY MR. KILLINGER:
21       Q.    Can you tell me what this document is?
22       A.    It is an application for a permit.
23       Q.    Do you recognize it?
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    Okay.  What kind of permit is it applying
                                                 187

 1   for?
 2       A.    The Works of the District permit.
 3       Q.    Why do you apply for a Works of the
 4   District permit?
 5       A.    This is a permit that we are required to
 6   apply for now under the SWIM Plan.
 7       Q.    And do you have assistance with filing
 8   these applications?
 9       A.    Assistance?
10       Q.    Yes.  It says prepared by Ed Barber and
11   Associates?
12       A.    Yeah, Ed Barber.
13       Q.    What do they do for you?
14       A.    He is a consultant.
15       Q.    That's all I have about that.
16             (The document was marked
17             Exb. No. 11.)
18   BY MR. KILLINGER:
19       Q.    I would like to show you what I have just
20   marked as Exhibit 11 and ask you if you have ever
21   seen that document.
22       A.    Yes, I attended this meeting.  I hadn't
23   seen this document before.
24       Q.    I'm sorry?
25       A.    I attended this meeting, but I have never
                                                 188

 1   seen this document before.
 2       Q.    What does the document describe?
 3       A.    A meeting with Governor Graham.
 4       Q.    Okay.  If you look at paragraph 1, I
 5   believe the remarks say there were two separate
 6   meetings.  Were you at one meeting or both meetings?
 7       A.    One meeting.
 8       Q.    Okay.  Can you tell me approximately when
 9   that meeting occurred?
10       A.    In 1983, apparently; meeting November the
11   fourth.
12       Q.    Can you tell me why it occurred?
13       A.    We had asked for a meeting with the
14   governor.
15       Q.    Okay.  Who's "we"?
16       A.    Kerstein, Wedgworth, Boy, myself.  Supposed
17   to be Ed Duda instead of A. Duda.
18       Q.    Supposed to be Ed Duda?
19       A.    Yeah.  And Joe Marginhiggert (phonetic) and
20   Jack Campbell from Homestead, I believe.
21       Q.    Why did you ask for a meeting?
22       A.    We had to -- SOE -- SOE program?  Refresh
23   my memory.
24       Q.    SOE program?
25       A.    Uh-huh.
                                                 189

 1       Q.    I'm not sure I can tell you what the SOE
 2   program is.
 3       A.    I can't either.  Anyway, we had some
 4   problems with press releases that the governor had
 5   made about on-site containment.
 6       Q.    Okay.  Let's discuss on-site containment
 7   for a second.  What is on site containment?
 8       A.    My interpretation of on-site containment is
 9   containing your stormwater on site.
10       Q.    Is that stormwater from your farm land?
11       A.    Right.
12       Q.    How is that done or how would that be done?
13       A.    Well, you would have to set aside land to
14   contain it on.
15       Q.    Essentially, create sort of a stormwater
16   holding pond?
17       A.    Exactly.
18       Q.    And you had to pump into that?
19       A.    Exactly.
20       Q.    What was the problem with the press
21   releases that the governor had been --
22       A.    Well, the governor, in his press release
23   said that, you know, EAA growers can do it if I can
24   do it on my dairy.  When we confronted him with this
25   issue, he said he just had some misinformation.
                                                 190

 1       Q.    What was the misinformation?
 2       A.    He does not have on site containment on his
 3   dairy.  He his stormwater run off his farm into a
 4   roadside canal along US-27 into C-19 in the
 5   Caloosahatchee River.
 6       Q.    Did he back off his statement?
 7       A.    No.  Although he told us he just had bad
 8   information, he never retracted his statement.
 9       Q.    He had bad information about what he had on
10   his on own dairy farm?
11       A.    Exactly.  He had bad information on what he
12   had on his own farm.
13             (Discussion held off the record.)
14             MR. KILLINGER:  Back on the record.
15   BY MR. KILLINGER:
16       Q.    Why was on-site containment being
17   discussed?
18       A.    That was one of the options that had been
19   floated politically.  It was the hot item.
20       Q.    Okay.
21       A.    In reality, it wasn't worth a damn.
22       Q.    Why was it is an option that was being
23   floated?  I mean, what was the problem it was
24   designed to address?
25       A.    The runoff.
                                                 191

 1       Q.    Okay.  Runoff to where?
 2       A.    Nutrient runoff into the Works of the
 3   District.
 4       Q.    And it was a hot item back then?
 5       A.    At that time.
 6       Q.    This was 1983; correct?
 7       A.    Apparently, November of '83.
 8       Q.    Okay.  Is that prior to any of the SWIM
 9   planning process?
10       A.    Yes.
11       Q.    Is that prior to the federal lawsuit?
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    Do you recall who it was who was mostly
14   concerned about nutrient runoff?
15       A.    No.  Best of my recollection, DER and
16   possibly the governor.
17       Q.    Do you know why they were concerned?
18       A.    At that time, no.  Oh, there it is.  SOE:
19   Save our Everglades program.
20       Q.    Do you know why they might have been
21   concerned about nutrients runoff?
22             MR. GREEN:  Asked and answered.  You just
23        asked him that.
24             MR. KILLINGER:  I don't think I got an
25        answer.  Maybe I missed it.
                                                 192

 1             MR. GREEN:  I think you did.  You may want
 2        to ask that it be read back.
 3             MR. KILLINGER:  Can you read it back,
 4        please?
 5             (Thereupon, a portion of the record
 6              was read by the reporter.)
 7   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 8       Q.    Is your answer then that they were
 9   concerned because of the Save Our Everglades program?
10       A.    I have no idea why that was an issue at
11   that time.  It may have been because of Save Our
12   Everglades program.
13       Q.    Okay.  Do you know what the Save Our
14   Everglades program was all about?
15       A.    I don't remember.  I probably did in 1983
16   but today I couldn't tell you.
17       Q.    Okay.  Let's discuss on site detention a
18   little bit.  I gather from your comments a few
19   moments ago that you weren't too thrilled with the
20   idea; is that correct?
21       A.    That is correct.
22       Q.    Why is that?
23       A.    You're asking me, a private landowner, to
24   store water for the state at my expense when, in
25   fact, it is taking my property; takes land out of
                                                 193

 1   production.  It will not add to the water supply.  In
 2   fact, it will take away from the water supply.
 3       Q.    Why will it take away from the water
 4   supply?
 5       A.    ET.  Evapotranspiration.
 6       Q.    Which is?
 7       A.    Evaporation that takes moisture into the
 8   air, and when you spread it out over a thin area --
 9   if you spread an inch of water out over this table,
10   or you put the same amount of water in that cup, you
11   are going to have a whole lot less in that cup than
12   you are out here when you expose more area to the
13   air.
14       Q.    ET is evapotranspiration.  What is
15   transpiration?
16       A.    It goes up into the air.
17       Q.    If you look at the page 2 of the letter --
18       A.    Apparently it is a memorandum from Pat
19   McCaffrey to Tschinkel.
20       Q.    I'm sorry.  Page 2 of the memorandum.
21       A.    Uh-huh.
22       Q.    In the first paragraph, the second sentence
23   indicates that, "EAA interests maintain there are no
24   such facilities on the Graham property and that such
25   facilities have been proven inappropriate for the
                                                 194

 1   EAA."  How were they proven inappropriate for the
 2   EAA?
 3       A.    Costs.
 4       Q.    Was a study performed?
 5       A.    There was a study performed I think by
 6   Hutcheon Engineers.
 7       Q.    Who commissioned that study?
 8       A.    I believe it was the Sugar Cane League.
 9       Q.    Do you recall when?
10       A.    No.  Prior to this date.  Prior to November
11   4, 1983.
12       Q.    Do you recall the grounds for the statement
13   that the facilities were proven inappropriate for the
14   EAA?
15             MR. GREEN:  Asked and answered.
16   BY MR. KILLINGER:
17       Q.    Is cost the only issue?
18       A.    Mainly.
19       Q.    Next-to-the-last paragraph of the
20   memorandum indicates that, "The EAA contingent
21   characterized the Holey Land/Rotenberger as "a battle
22   we have already lost and don't support, but aren't
23   interested in fighting anymore"; can you tell me what
24   the battle was about?  The Holey Land and Rotenberger
25   tract?
                                                 195

 1       A.    It was a feeling by the EAA people that
 2   Holey Land/Rotenberger should be on the table and
 3   included in the Save Our Everglades situation.
 4       Q.    What should it be on the table and included
 5   for?
 6       A.    Like something similar to STAs now as we
 7   know them today.
 8       Q.    Was it the EAA growers contention that the
 9   Holey Land and Rotenberger tract should be used to
10   treat the EAA runoff?
11             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
12             THE WITNESS:  It could be used to store the
13        runoff.  There were modifications I think the
14        EAA group felt were feasible and should be
15        considered.
16             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.  Thank you.
17             (The document was marked
18             Exb. No. 12.)
19   BY MR. KILLINGER:
20       Q.    I'll hand you what I have just marked as
21   Exhibit 12 and ask you if you recognize that
22   document.
23             MR. GREEN:  Just for the record, Exhibit 12
24        I think is more than one letter.
25             MR. KILLINGER:  Yes, it is.
                                                 196

 1             MR. GREEN:  So I guess you're requesting
 2        Mr. Stein review all those and see if he can
 3        identify them.
 4             MR. KILLINGER:  Yes, I am.
 5             MR. GREEN:  Thank you.
 6             THE WITNESS:  Some of these I have seen.  I
 7        am looking at some for the first time, but those
 8        I was copied on; I remember those.
 9   BY MR. KILLINGER:
10       Q.    Okay.  Well, since it is a composite
11   exhibit and there are a number of them, why don't we
12   just go through and identify them from the top down,
13   and you can tell us whether you have seen them
14   before.
15       A.    Okay.  I have seen the first letter dated
16   November 3rd, 1987.
17       Q.    Okay.
18       A.    I have seen the letter dated December 23,
19   1987.
20       Q.    Okay.  Have you seen the second letter?
21       A.    No.
22       Q.    Is the second letter --
23       A.    From Finley.
24       Q.    -- from Finley to George Wedgworth, and
25   there is a stamp on it which says December 17, 1987
                                                 197

 1   up in the right-hand corner.
 2       A.    Uh-huh.
 3       Q.    Have you seen that document?
 4       A.    No.
 5       Q.    Okay.  The third document is a letter from
 6   the Cooperative dated December 23.
 7       A.    Yes, I was copied on that letter.
 8       Q.    Okay.
 9       Q.    The fourth document is another letter from
10   the Cooperative to Mr. Finley dated December 23?
11       A.    No, I hadn't seen that one.
12       Q.    The fifth document is a memorandum from
13   Sugar Cane League.
14       A.    From Ed Barber to Mike Finley dated
15   February the 3rd; first time I have seen it.
16       Q.    Hang on just a second.  Yes, it is dated
17   February 3rd.  You are correct.  I'm sorry.
18             MR. GREEN:  It is from Ed Barber to the
19        Environmental Quality Committee.
20             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  It is a memorandum.
21        Okay.
22   BY MR. KILLINGER:
23       Q.    Yes.
24       A.    I'm sorry.
25       Q.    The next document is a --
                                                 198

 1       A.    Dated February 4th, memorandum from Ed
 2   Barber to the Environmental Quality Committee.  I had
 3   not seen that before.
 4       Q.    And the next document is a letter from the
 5   Cooperative, dated June 6, 1989, to Mike Finley.
 6   Have you seen that?
 7       A.    That's the first time I have seen it;
 8   today.
 9       Q.    The next document is a letter dated April
10   19, 1989 from the Cooperative to Mike Finley.
11       A.    Yes.  That's the first I have seen it.
12       Q.    Okay.
13       A.    I had not seen a copy of the Sun-Sentinel
14   article.
15       Q.    The June 13, 1989 Cooperative letter?
16       A.    I had not seen it.  Dated June 13.
17       Q.    Yes.  To the Florida Sugar Cane League?
18       A.    No.
19       Q.    And the last document is a Department of
20   the Interior letter, dated June 9, to Mr. Wedgworth.
21   Had you seen that?
22       A.    No, I had not seen that.
23       Q.    Okay.  Let's flip back to the front page,
24   if you would, please.  Can you tell me what the
25   Environmental Quality Committee of the Florida Sugar
                                                 199

 1   Cane League is?
 2       A.    Their job was to deal with environmental
 3   issues; both air, water and any others that might
 4   come up.
 5       Q.    When was that committee established?
 6       A.    I don't have any idea.  Probably in the
 7   '60's.  That's a guess.
 8       Q.    That's fine.  Thank you.  Do you know
 9   whether the membership of the Environmental Quality
10   Committee has changed since it was organized?
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    Do you know who is on it now?
13       A.    No.
14       Q.    Do you know who how many members are on the
15   Environmental Quality Committee?
16       A.    I don't recall.
17       Q.    Can you give me some names of people who
18   have been on the EQC in the past?
19       A.    I know George Wedgworth as chairman for
20   many years.  This was called -- now each company made
21   recommendations for those committee assignments and I
22   just don't recall.
23       Q.    Were you ever on it?
24       A.    On the EQC?  I don't think I was.
25       Q.    Okay.  This letter contains a number of
                                                 200

 1   proposals for discussion with Everglades National
 2   Park personnel; is that correct?
 3       A.    That's my interpretation.
 4       Q.    Okay.  You were shown as having received a
 5   copy of it.  Did you have any hand in helping draft
 6   the letter?
 7       A.    None at all.
 8       Q.    Do you have any idea what would have
 9   prompted Mr. Wedgworth to send a letter such as this
10   to Mr. Finley?
11       A.    I have no idea other than the way I
12   interpret the letter.  It was putting out hands to
13   cooperate and to find common grounds for settlement
14   apparently.
15       Q.    Was there an ongoing dialogue regarding the
16   issues that are listed in the letter?
17       A.    Ongoing dialogue with --
18       Q.    With National Park personnel?
19       A.    I don't have any idea.
20       Q.    You said it looks like it might have been
21   sort of extending a hand in settlement.  Settling of
22   what issue?
23       A.    Well, apparently Finley had made some
24   statements in front of this board, the board that I
25   served on over here, and I think that's probably what
                                                 201

 1   prompted --
 2       Q.    Water Management District Board?
 3       A.    Yes.
 4       Q.    Do you know what those statements were?
 5       A.    No, I don't remember.
 6       Q.    Do you think it would be -- strike that.
 7   Never mind.  Okay.  Thank you.
 8             (The document was marked
 9             Exb. No. 13.)
10   BY MR. KILLINGER:
11       Q.    I'll hand you what I have marked as Exhibit
12   13 and ask you if you recognize that.
13       A.    Yes.
14       Q.    Can you tell me what it is?
15       A.    Apparently this is a draft of a statement
16   that George Wedgworth was going to make to the
17   Governing Board of the South Florida Water Management
18   District.
19       Q.    Did you produce this in the documents you
20   produced for this deposition?
21       A.    Yes.  This was produced.
22       Q.    Can you tell me why you produced this
23   document?
24             MR. GREEN:  Excuse me.  You may answer, but
25        I think this is the one I was going to clarify.
                                                 202

 1             When we went back through Mr. Stein's
 2        documents, Mr. Ward reviewed the documents with
 3        him, and I believe this was the document that he
 4        uncovered that inadvertently was not produced
 5        for Mr. Wedgworth's deposition and so he wanted
 6        to be sure you got it.  I could be wrong on
 7        that.
 8             MR. KILLINGER:  I think you are, and I
 9        think I can clear it up.  Maybe this particular
10        document was not, but I think the final draft of
11        it was.
12             MR. GREEN:  There was one document in that
13        category.  If this isn't it, there is another
14        one.
15             THE WITNESS:  Somehow this had gotten in my
16        files, but I heard him, when he did appear
17        before the board, make his comments.
18   BY MR. KILLINGER:
19       Q.    That's fine.  How long have you known
20   Mr. Wedgworth?
21       A.    Oh, probably 50 years.
22       Q.    Have you all served on as officers of the
23   Co-op for some time together?
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    Have you all worked closely together for a
                                                 203

 1   number of years?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    Have you read this statement recently?
 4       A.    No.
 5       Q.    Do you recall having it presented to you,
 6   or reading it when it was reasonably promulgated,
 7   either one?
 8       A.    I was furnished a copy, as all board
 9   members were, the day he gave the presentation.
10       Q.    If you flip to page 2, the last full
11   paragraph --
12       A.    Second page?
13       Q.    Yes, sir?
14       A.    Uh-huh.
15       Q.    The last sentence of that paragraph says
16   that you will also "express our recommendations
17   followed by a proposal to have the property owners
18   and farmers in the EAA share in the cost of funding
19   and implementing solutions."
20       A.    Uh-huh.
21       Q.    Do you know what he meant by that?
22       A.    I don't know what he meant by it, but from
23   this comment, I would say that it says what it says;
24   that the EAA farmers would share in the cost of
25   funding and implementing solutions.
                                                 204

 1       Q.    Can you describe what the Co-op's position
 2   on the EAA farmers assisting in funding and
 3   implementing solutions is?
 4       A.    No.  I think the Co-op's position is this:
 5   When the problems are scientifically identified and
 6   the solutions are scientifically determined, at that
 7   point in time we will look at it and see what we can
 8   do and what our equitable costs should be.
 9       Q.    And as of this date, is it your opinion
10   that the problems have not been scientifically
11   identified?
12       A.    That is correct.
13       Q.    Is it your contention that the solutions
14   have not been scientifically determined?
15       A.    That is correct.
16       Q.    Turn to page 3, please.  The first full
17   sentence at the top states that, "Premature efforts
18   to force the Department of Environmental Regulation
19   to act on water quality violations in the WCAs before
20   technical solutions were found" and then it goes on.
21   Do you know what water quality violations were being
22   referred to?
23       A.    No, I don't.
24       Q.    If you could turn to page 4, please,
25   reading from the top down getting near the end of the
                                                 205

 1   fourth line down, there is a reference to "The
 2   primary purpose of the WCAs is for flood control and
 3   water retention".  I believe yesterday you made a
 4   comment regarding the primary purpose of the WCAs
 5   being for flood control and water retention.  Is that
 6   your understanding of the purpose of the WCAs?
 7       A.    Yes.  Water retention.  I used "supply" I
 8   think; the best I can remember.
 9       Q.    Are there other purposes for WCAs in your
10   opinion?
11       A.    It is multipurpose.  It is multipurpose,
12   yes.
13       Q.    Do you think that the flood control and
14   water retention purposes are paramount over the other
15   purposes?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    What other purposes are there or were there
18   intended to be -- strike that whole thing.
19       A.    I agree.
20       Q.    What other purposes of the WCAs are there?
21       A.    Can I ask you a question?  I know I am the
22   guy being questioned.  Can I ask you a question.
23       Q.    You may ask me for clarification of your
24   question?
25       A.    Would you give me a copy of House Document
                                                 206

 1   643 and let me refer to it.
 2       Q.    If I have a copy of House Document 643.
 3       A.    One of you should have.  That should be
 4   your outline.
 5       Q.    I don't know if I have it with me.
 6       A.    Well, I prefer to have document 643 and the
 7   language in 643.
 8       Q.    Okay.  That's fine.  The reference there is
 9   a reference to House Document 643 at the top of page
10   4; is that correct?
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    I think I have a copy of it someplace in my
13   documents, but I don't know where I can drag it out
14   right now.  Would the purposes include recreation?
15       A.    I think that's one of them.
16       Q.    Would it include wildlife habitat?
17       A.    Wildlife benefits, I think, or something
18   like that.
19       Q.    Right.  In your opinion, how should the
20   varying uses be balanced for WCAs?
21             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
22             You may answer.
23             THE WITNESS:  Well, with my opinion and a
24        dollar, you got a dollar, for whatever that's
25        worth.  I feel that it is clear in House
                                                 207

 1        Document 643, as to the priorities; one being
 2        flood control and water supply, those being the
 3        top two priorities, the others are benefits that
 4        hopefully will evolve from that.
 5   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 6       Q.    Okay.  So just let me take as an example.
 7   If it were necessary for water retention to flood
 8   WCA-2A, for instance, to a depth of three feet, would
 9   you think that would be an acceptable use of 2A ?
10             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
11             THE WITNESS:  It would be what type use?
12   BY MR. KILLINGER:
13       Q.    For water retention.
14       A.    For water supply.  That's one of the
15   purposes for Water Conservation Area 2, 3 and 1, as
16   far as that's concerned.
17       Q.    Okay.  If water supply or water retention
18   or flood control results in destruction of natural
19   habitat, do you find that to be a problem?
20             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
21             THE WITNESS:  I don't understand the
22        question.  Could you phrase it in a different
23        way?
24             MR. KILLINGER:  Yes, I think I can.
                                                 208

 1   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 2       Q.    If management of the WCAs were driven by
 3   flood control and water retention and those two
 4   considerations had an adverse impact on the other
 5   potential purposes of the WCAs, would that be an
 6   acceptable management strategy in your opinion?
 7       A.    In my opinion that's the intent and purpose
 8   of House Document 643 as the Congress intended.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Down toward the bottom of the second
10   paragraph is a sentence that begins with "The packing
11   houses and sugar mills cannot survive with a loss of
12   their supply of vegetables or sugar cane".
13             Do you know how many acres of sugar cane it
14   takes to supply a sugar mill and keep it operating?
15       A.    There is no way acres can -- it is not a
16   number of acres, it is tons of sugar cane.
17       Q.    Okay.  Do you know how many tons of sugar
18   cane?
19       A.    No, I don't.  I have no idea what is
20   involved in other companies.
21       Q.    Are there certain economies of scale
22   involved in operating a sugar cane mill?
23       A.    As in other businesses.
24       Q.    But you don't know what tonnage it takes to
25   make it economical to operate a sugar cane mill?
                                                 209

 1       A.    No.
 2       Q.    If you flip to page 5 please, the first
 3   full sentence in that paragraph at the top of the
 4   page says that "Loss of productive land in the EAA is
 5   not acceptable and it is questionable if it would
 6   result in a solution".  To whom is loss of productive
 7   lands in the EAA not acceptable?
 8       A.    To all the food producers of that area.
 9       Q.    The next paragraph commences with the
10   sentence, "The implementation of the Interim Action
11   Plan (IAP) is an example of premature action which
12   has placed high hydraulic loads and additional
13   nutrient loads on the WCAs and disrupted the N-P
14   ratios in the Lake which contributed to the
15   production of blue-green algae blooms".  Do you agree
16   with that statement?
17       A.    To the best of my knowledge.  But I'm not a
18   scientist, so --
19       Q.    If you could please flip to page 8, the
20   second full paragraph, the last sentence of that
21   paragraph reads that, "We have to have time to
22   conduct research to learn more about not only removal
23   at low concentrations but also downstream effects of
24   these low levels".  Have you got any opinion about
25   how much time is needed to conduct research that
                                                 210

 1   would satisfy the agricultural industry about
 2   problems and cause and effect in EAA?
 3             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 4             You may answer.
 5             THE WITNESS:  In time, I have no idea.  But
 6        I'm sure that when the cause and effect science
 7        has been done, however long that might take, and
 8        the people that keep throwing obstacles in front
 9        of that process will allow it to be done and
10        whatever time that takes, I don't know how long
11        that might take.
12   BY MR. KILLINGER:
13       Q.    What obstacles are being thrown in front of
14   that process?
15       A.    Well, the refusal to let the scientists go
16   into the Water Conservation Area 1 and into the park.
17   That's two of them.
18       Q.    Okay.  Do you know whether a refusal --
19   whether permission was granted voluntarily to
20   research scientists, to go into the agricultural area
21   to conduct testing?
22       A.    As far as I know.
23       Q.    As far as you know, it was voluntarily
24   granted?
25       A.    As far as I know.  They are in there.
                                                 211

 1       Q.    Is the Co-op presently funding research in
 2   the Everglades?
 3       A.    The Co-op presently funding research in the
 4   Everglades?  Yes, we are.
 5       Q.    With who?
 6       A.    Jere Northrop, Bion Tech or something like
 7   that.
 8       Q.    Okay.  Anybody else?
 9       A.    I think that's the only one that I can
10   think of at the moment.
11       Q.    Is Jere Northrop with Bion Tech?
12       A.    Yes.  I think it is Bion Tech.  Don't hold
13   me to that name exactly.
14       Q.    Okay.  I believe it is.
15       A.    Is it?
16       Q.    Is the Cooperative funding any research at
17   Duke University?
18       A.    I think that's through the taxing agency.
19   EPD.  Whatever taxes our growers pay our Co-op pays
20   to the EPD, I'm sure that's part of it.
21             (Discussion held off the record.)
22             (The document was marked
23             Exb. No. 14.)
24   BY MR. KILLINGER:
25       Q.    Let me hand you what I have marked as
                                                 212

 1   Exhibit 14 and ask you if you can identify that.  Can
 2   you identify what the composite exhibit is for me?
 3       A.    This is a letter dated September 1 to
 4   Dr. Ken Reckhow, School of The Environment, Duke
 5   University.  "Enclosed is our check" -- this is a
 6   letter from George Wedgworth to Dr. Reckhow --
 7   "Enclosed is our check in the amount of $20,000 made
 8   payable to the Duke Wetland Center representing an
 9   unrestricted gift in support of Wetland Center's work
10   in the Everglades".
11       Q.    Can you identify the next document for me,
12   please?
13       A.    Letter dated June 2nd to Dr. Curtis
14   Richardson, Duke University Wetland Center, School of
15   Forestry and Environmental Sciences, 212 Biological
16   Sciences Building, Durham, North Carolina, and it is
17   a letter to him, "In accordance with our discussions
18   of your letter dated May 28, 1992, we are forwarding
19   our check for $20,000 to support a proposed graduate
20   student that you have selected for his studies of one
21   year".
22       Q.    Can you identify the next document?
23       A.    Next is a letter from Duke University, from
24   Curtis Richardson to George Wedgworth dated May 28,
25   1992.  "It is my understanding that the Sugar Co-op
                                                 213

 1   of Florida is interested in supporting a graduate
 2   student in research in the Duke Wetland Center.  To
 3   expedite the appointment of this student and to
 4   provide support for his salary and expenses, it will
 5   be necessary to submit a check for $20,000 to the
 6   Duke University Wetland Center, account number
 7   391-9011.  This direct payment will cover the
 8   expenses for one year for the proposed graduate
 9   student study.  If you have any questions please give
10   me a call.  Sincerely yours, Curtis Richardson."
11             Next is a copy of a check from Sugar Cane
12   Growers Co-Op in the amount of $20,000 made out to
13   Duke University Wetland Center.
14             Next is a cover page of a fax transmittal
15   from Duke School of the Environment to George
16   Wedgworth from C. J. Richardson.  Comments:  "Here is
17   the letter and mechanism to support the student,
18   original sent by mail".
19             Next is a letter from Sugar Cane Growers
20   Co-Op from George Wedgworth to Curtis Richardson
21   dated June 11, 1992.  "In further clarification of my
22   letter to you on our grant forwarded June 2, 1992, it
23   is our intention that the funds are to be used for
24   the purposes outlined in your letter to me dated May
25   28, 1992, on an unrestricted basis".
                                                 214

 1       Q.    Does this exhibit indicate, in your
 2   opinion, that the Cooperative has given at least some
 3   money to Duke University School of the Environment
 4   for Everglades related research?
 5       A.    It appears that way.
 6       Q.    Are you aware, prior to seeing this
 7   exhibit, that the Cooperative had funded the
 8   university?
 9       A.    As far as a graduate student is concerned,
10   yes.
11       Q.    Okay.  Did you vote on the funding as a
12   board and decide to --
13       A.    I think it was probably the executive
14   committee.
15             MR. GREEN:  Excuse me.  Are you about at a
16        convenient breaking point?
17             MR. KILLINGER:  Yes.  Just hang on a
18        second.
19   BY MR. KILLINGER:
20       Q.    Do you know of any other funding from the
21   Cooperative to the Duke University School of the
22   Environment in connection --
23       A.    There may be other funding, but I'm not
24   sure of it.
25       Q.    Okay.  Are you formally involved in those
                                                 215

 1   decisions?
 2       A.    Sometimes, if I am available.
 3       Q.    Okay.  But it is entirely possible --
 4       A.    It could be.
 5       Q.    -- that monies been spent without your
 6   knowledge?
 7             MR. KILLINGER:  Do you need to take a break
 8        right now?
 9             MR. GREEN:  Yeah, we would like to.
10             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.  We'll take a break.
11             (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
12   BY MR. KILLINGER:
13       Q.    Who at the Cooperative makes decisions
14   about funding of scientific research by the Co-op?
15       A.    Generally Mr. Wedgworth.
16       Q.    I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
17       A.    Mr. Wedgworth.
18       Q.    Does he do that with any advice or
19   discussion with anyone else?
20       A.    It could be the executive committee, and
21   from the executive committee to the board.
22       Q.    I think I may have asked you before whether
23   you knew where the Co-op was funding any research in
24   the Everglades.  Let me broaden that a little bit and
25   ask you if you know whether the Co-op has funded in
                                                 216

 1   the past, or is funding now, any Everglades related
 2   research?
 3       A.    Other than what we have talked about here
 4   today, I can't think of any.
 5       Q.    Okay I just wanted to make sure I wasn't
 6   narrow in my question.  Do you know whether the
 7   League has in the past, or is now, funding any
 8   Everglades related research?
 9       A.    They have funded some in the past and what
10   they are doing today, I don't know.
11       Q.    Do you know what they funded in the past?
12       A.    I don't know if it directly related to the
13   Everglades.  There were studies done in the past on
14   the lake, there were studies done on some farms.
15       Q.    Do you know approximately when these
16   studies occurred?
17       A.    In the '70's.
18       Q.    Could I get you to go back to Exhibit 13 a
19   little bit, please.  If you could turn to page 9,
20   paragraph number 1 states that, "Involvement with the
21   legislative process is necessary to get water
22   management back into the hands of the SFWMD's staff
23   and Board".  Is it your opinion that water management
24   is not in the hands of the District staff and board?
25             MR. GREEN:  Let me just object to the form
                                                 217

 1        to the extent that, you know, it is fine for you
 2        to ask Mr. Stein these questions, but you're
 3        asking him questions based on a document that's
 4        five years old that he didn't prepare, and, you
 5        know, I just question whether that's going to be
 6        really helpful to you, but you can certainly
 7        pursue whatever line you think is --
 8             MR. KILLINGER:  Well, I recognize it is a
 9        older document, and I recognize that he didn't
10        write it, but it is a presentation that was
11        given by the President of the Cooperative, and
12        it contains statements, so I am trying to find
13        out whether he agrees with those statements.
14             MR. GREEN:  I understand.  That's fine.
15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I agree with that
16        statement.
17   BY MR. KILLINGER:
18       Q.    Okay.  Why do you feel it is not in the
19   Water Management District staff and board's hands?
20       A.    Today?
21       Q.    Yes.
22       A.    Because of the involvement of DER, which is
23   supervisory to the District.  It is in the hands of
24   the governor and being influenced a great deal by the
25   Justice Department.
                                                 218

 1       Q.    Do you think that the --
 2       A.    That might not have been true in those
 3   days, but that's true today.
 4       Q.    Do you think it is inappropriate for DER to
 5   have a hand in water management?
 6       A.    Not at all.  That's the way the legislature
 7   designed it and I don't think they should dictate to
 8   the board.  I think they should give the board the
 9   authority to do their job.
10       Q.    Do you think at this point they are
11   dictating the job?
12       A.    At this point in time that's my
13   observation.
14       Q.    Okay.  What is that observation based on?
15       A.    Experience.
16       Q.    Can you give me a specific example?
17       A.    Not exactly, it is just the observations
18   that I have that apparently they are under the
19   influence of DER more so than they were when I was on
20   the board.
21       Q.    Do you think that the board is making
22   decisions that it would not make were it not for the
23   influence of the DER?
24       A.    They are making decisions now because of
25   DER positions.
                                                 219

 1       Q.    Can you give me an idea about what those
 2   decisions are?
 3       A.    Well, the settlement agreement is one of
 4   them.
 5       Q.    Do you think that DER influenced the
 6   District into signing the settlement agreement?
 7       A.    The governor, Governor Chiles and DER and
 8   the Justice Department.
 9       Q.    Do you think it is in appropriate for the
10   governor to be involved in water management?
11             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
12             THE WITNESS:  He's the one that makes the
13        appointments to the board.  He has to be
14        involved in it.  It was wrong to settle the
15        lawsuit because he gave up the state's right to
16        control its water issues.
17   BY MR. KILLINGER:
18       Q.    Why do you feel that he gave up the state's
19   right to control water issues?
20       A.    Because he did in fact.
21       Q.    In what way?
22       A.    In the settlement agreement.  He gave it to
23   the federal judge.  I see in today's paper too we
24   have got our prison back after ten years.
25       Q.    I think that happened a day or two ago.  I
                                                 220

 1   think I read that.
 2       A.    Well, I was just reading the paper that
 3   accumulated while I was gone, I guess.
 4       Q.    The second numbered paragraph on page 9
 5   suggests that -- well, I'll just read it -- it says,
 6   "Defer any action that will lead toward the taking of
 7   private and/or public productive agricultural land
 8   out of production until such time as all other
 9   options have been exhausted" and then the sentence
10   goes on, and I won't read the rest of it because it
11   is an exhibit.  Do you have any idea how long it
12   might be until all other options have been exhausted?
13       A.    No, I don't because no one is willing to
14   let science prevail.  They want politics to prevail.
15       Q.    Do you have any idea about how long it
16   might take to conduct the required scientific
17   research?
18       A.    No, I don't.
19       Q.    The paragraph five reads that, "Best
20   management practices do not offer high expectations
21   to finding solutions".  This was written in 1988.  Do
22   you agree with that statement?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    Today?
25       A.    Yes.
                                                 221

 1       Q.    Why do you think that's an accurate
 2   statement?
 3       A.    Some of the BMPs I have seen offered
 4   standard practices in some cases.
 5       Q.    Such as?
 6       A.    Well, an example I use is, I band
 7   fertilizer, some people broadcast.
 8       Q.    So are you saying that they don't offer
 9   high expectations to finding solutions because they
10   are already being done?
11       A.    Well, they are already being done in some
12   cases, right, but the results are going to be
13   minuscule I think by the change.
14       Q.    On the following page numbered paragraph 10
15   states that "The Holey Land, Rotenberger Snail Farm,
16   Browns Farm tract land offered adequate sites for
17   nutrient removal research" and it says, "They are all
18   in the agricultural area".  Is the Holey Land
19   privately owned?
20       A.    Parcels in it.  No, I don't think.  The
21   Holey Land is owned by the state.
22       Q.    Is the Rotenberger tract privately owned?
23       A.    Partially owned by the state.
24       Q.    Do you know how much of it is owned by the
25   state?
                                                 222

 1       A.    No.
 2       Q.    Do you know if the majority of it's owned
 3   by the state?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    Is Snail Farm privately owned?
 6       A.    Owned by U. S. Fish and Wildlife I think.
 7   There are signs on it.  I'll put it that way.  And it
 8   is outside of Water Conservation Area 1.
 9       Q.    Is the Browns Farm tract private land?
10       A.    State land.
11       Q.    State land.  Do you think state lands
12   should be used for nutrient removal research?
13       A.    Yes.
14       Q.    Do you think state lands should be used
15   exclusively for nutrient removal research?
16             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
17             THE WITNESS:  That's one option.
18   BY MR. KILLINGER:
19       Q.    Okay.
20       A.    Depends how serious you are at solving the
21   problem.
22       Q.    Do you know whether the agricultural
23   community has offered any of their land for nutrient
24   removal research?
25       A.    I don't know of any that's been offered.
                                                 223

 1   There are private lands being used for research.
 2       Q.    Do you know what private lands?
 3       A.    Well, we talked about that earlier.  Bion
 4   Tech I think is the one that we were talking about,
 5   Sugar Cane Growers Co-Op.
 6       Q.    Do you know what Bion Tech is doing, what
 7   research they are doing?
 8       A.    I am familiar with it, yeah.
 9       Q.    Can you tell me about it?
10       A.    We are trying to reduce the phosphorus
11   levels in stormwater.
12       Q.    Do you know what Bion Tech's process or
13   proposal is?
14       A.    It is with the injection of iron sulfate or
15   ferrous sulfate and then it goes through an echo
16   reactor, which is a grassy area, and it is then
17   treated water.  Injections of iron sulfate causes the
18   solid to flocculate and become more available to
19   microorganisms in the bioreactor or the grassy area
20   that the water flows through, making it more
21   available to them.
22       Q.    Is the grassy area you referred to, the
23   bio, is that the echo reactor?
24       A.    Yes, I think that's what it is called.
25       Q.    Is that analogous to an STA?
                                                 224

 1       A.    Not to me, but --
 2       Q.    Okay.  Can you tell me how you think they
 3   differ?
 4       A.    Well, an STA is a great big area, and the
 5   water going into it is not treated.
 6       Q.    And?
 7       A.    This is a small area.  In our case, it is
 8   probably 15, 16 acres.
 9       Q.    What is supposed to happen in the echo
10   reactor?
11       A.    The microorganism take the solid -- the
12   phosphorus would come out in solid form -- and they
13   digest it, and then water coming out the other end is
14   a whole lot lower.  But, the only problem we have
15   found is there is not enough phosphorus in the water
16   to take out.
17             (The document was marked
18             Exb. No. 15.)
19   BY MR. KILLINGER:
20       Q.    Let me show you what I have marked as
21   Exhibit 15 and ask you if you recognize that.  It is
22   a composite exhibit with several documents.
23             MR. GREEN:  When you're asking Mr. Stein to
24        identify, are you asking him basically if he is
25        ever seen the document before?
                                                 225

 1             MR. KILLINGER:  Yes.
 2             MR. GREEN:  I mean, I think he feels
 3        obliged to review them carefully, which is fine,
 4        but if you don't have any specific questions, we
 5        might save time if you're just asking him if
 6        he's seen it.
 7             MR. KILLINGER:  Well, my specific question
 8        will be whether the documents in this composite
 9        exhibit reflect his understanding of the Bion
10        Technologies work proposal.
11             MR. GREEN:  Well, I think he may need to
12        read them then.
13             MR. KILLINGER:  I don't think I'll get any
14        more detailed than that.
15             MR. GREEN:  Again, all I am doing is
16        suggesting, just to save time.  If that
17        particular question -- it may be that he can
18        answer it without carefully reviewing it.  On
19        the other hand, if it requires him to read the
20        documents, then of course he needs to do that.
21             MR. KILLINGER:  I understand.
22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.
23   BY MR. KILLINGER:
24       Q.    If you look at the top document in Exhibit
25   Number 15, can you tell me what it appears to be?
                                                 226

 1       A.    A letter of agreement.
 2       Q.    Have you seen it before?
 3       A.    Yes.
 4       Q.    When did you see it?
 5       A.    I don't remember, but from the date on it,
 6   probably a month or so prior to it.
 7       Q.    Is this letter of agreement essentially a
 8   contract as you understand it with Bion Technologies?
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    Is it in force at this date?
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    Do you know how long the Bion Technologies
13   letter of agreement will continue?
14       A.    I don't think it has a time.  No, it
15   doesn't.
16       Q.    I didn't see one.  That is why I'm asking.
17       A.    No, I don't think so.
18       Q.    Do you think that the agreement will go on
19   as long as the work progresses?
20       A.    Yes, I do.
21       Q.    Do you have an understanding of how long it
22   might take Bion Technologies to complete their
23   proposed study?
24       A.    No, I don't.
25       Q.    Okay.  I believe that after Exhibit B is
                                                 227

 1   Exhibit A, so they may be out of order, but do you
 2   recognize Exhibit A?  It is labeled, up at the top,
 3   as Exhibit A.  I'm sorry.  It is after the legal
 4   descriptions which follow the letter of agreement.  I
 5   believe it is a letter dated May 12, 1992 from Jere
 6   Northrop to Mr. Wedgworth.
 7       A.    Uh-huh.
 8       Q.    Have you seen that before?
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    When did you see that?
11       A.    I guess sometime shortly after we received
12   it at the Co-op.
13       Q.    Who showed it to you?
14       A.    It was shown to me by George Wedgworth.
15       Q.    Okay.  Did you discuss it with him?
16       A.    This?
17       Q.    Yes.
18       A.    We have discussed the whole process, yeah,
19   and we visited sites in Okeechobee County.  This is a
20   evolutionary thing.
21       Q.    The next document is dated May 12 and it
22   appears to be a proposal to apply Bion Technologies
23   Nutrients Management System to low phosphorus
24   agricultural runoff from sugar cane; is that correct?
25       A.    Yes.
                                                 228

 1       Q.    The next document is a letter from John
 2   Northrop at Bion Technologies to George Wedgworth
 3   dated September 11, 1992; is that correct?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    And immediately following that is an
 6   invoice; is that accurate?
 7       A.    Yes.
 8       Q.    The next document appears to be a fax
 9   transmitted document which appears to be another
10   letter of agreement; is that correct?
11       A.    That was a proposed letter of agreement.
12       Q.    The date on this fax copy is June 22, 1992.
13       A.    23, the one I am looking at.
14       Q.    Yours says the 23rd.
15       A.    Uh-huh.
16       Q.    On the letterhead, or on the fax
17   transmittal?
18       A.    Fax transmittal.
19       Q.    Okay.  That is correct.  If you flip back
20   over to the beginning of the exhibit, the letter of
21   agreement there is dated July 6, 1992.
22       A.    This is in effect now.  The others were
23   proposed.
24       Q.    The other was proposed after you signed the
25   July 6th one?
                                                 229

 1       A.    No.  This was signed in July.  The other
 2   one is dated June 23.
 3       Q.    Oh, I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  You're
 4   absolutely right.  The next document?
 5       A.    This is the binding document here on top.
 6       Q.    That was my question.
 7       A.    Yeah.
 8       Q.    The next document is dated June 26, '92.
 9   It is a letter from Mr. Wedgworth to Mr. Northrop.
10       A.    Uh-huh.
11       Q.    Have you seen that document?
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    Just to shorten things up, have you seen
14   the remaining documents in the exhibit?
15       A.    I may have scanned them before.
16       Q.    When did you first get involved with Bion
17   Technologies?  "You", meaning the Co-op.  I'm sorry.
18       A.    I had heard about them from the folks that
19   owned Dry Lake Dairy.
20       Q.    Dry Lake Dairy?
21       A.    Yeah.  And in fact, I think they had --
22   George had seen some of the guys that run -- people
23   that owned that dairy, and they mentioned it to him
24   too.  They had not yet had one set up on their dairy
25   at the time, but there was one on Ferrell Dairy, and
                                                 230

 1   they were set up to treat barn wash water where you
 2   have a very high concentrations of phosphorus and low
 3   volumes of water.  So we, George Wedgworth, Jeff Ward
 4   and I, visited the Ferrell Dairy site along with Jere
 5   Northrop, and what we observed there was very
 6   interesting.  If I were a dairyman, I would be really
 7   looking at this.  It's cost effective and does the
 8   job.  Excuse me.
 9       Q.    Do you recall when, approximately, this
10   was?
11       A.    Sometime in the spring of '92.
12       Q.    Okay.  You indicate that it is used to
13   treat barn wash water?
14       A.    At the Ferrell Dairy.
15       Q.    At the Ferrell Dairy.  And you indicate
16   that you visited some sites in Okeechobee County?
17       A.    That's in Okeechobee County.
18       Q.    Is that where Ferrell Dairy is?
19       A.    Yes.
20       Q.    Do you know if the technology is being used
21   to treat agricultural runoff?
22       A.    That is agricultural runoff.
23       Q.    Well, I'm sorry.  Farm land runoff?
24       A.    No.  We didn't.  But from what we have seen
25   here, we thought that there was a possibility that we
                                                 231

 1   could glean something from it.
 2       Q.    Okay.  Is that what the letter agreement is
 3   trying to do; is to see if it is applicable to --
 4       A.    Exactly.  See, the opposite thing is true
 5   in our case.  Large volumes of water.
 6       Q.    Low concentrations of phosphorous?
 7       A.    No phosphorus.
 8       Q.    Have you been discussing the progress of
 9   the work with Bion Technologies personnel?
10       A.    Yes.  I was in a meeting.  Jere Northrop
11   came in one day and said, "You know, we don't have
12   any phosphorus out there to take out.  Can we find a
13   site that may have more phosphorus concentrations?"
14   And that's the last contact I have had with him.
15       Q.    Do you know where the site is that he's
16   referring to?
17       A.    Yes.
18       Q.    Where is that?
19       A.    You want to refer to Exhibit B.
20       Q.    Sure.
21       A.    Exhibit B, in Exhibit 15, page 4 of 5,
22   Glades Sugar Farm, Hillsboro.
23       Q.    Okay.  So the location where Bion
24   Technologies is doing their work is on the Glades
25   Sugar Farm?
                                                 232

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    What is it they are doing there?
 3       A.    What are they doing?
 4       Q.    Yes.
 5       A.    We are taking water out of the pump canal,
 6   treating it with ferrous sulfate, and discharging it
 7   into cells, bio reactors or whatever these proper
 8   terms are, and it comes out on the other end, where
 9   they are sampling the water.  They are sampling the
10   water.  I haven't seen any results, but they are
11   sampling the water at the discharge points on every
12   cell.  There is a thin layer of water that goes
13   through these cells and discharges out.
14       Q.    Do you know what kind of volumes they are
15   working with out there?
16       A.    Not exactly, but it is in thousands of
17   gallons per minute.
18       Q.    Are there any preliminary results?
19       A.    I haven't seen them other than just orally
20   talking to Jere.
21       Q.    What does he relate to you?
22       A.    He says we can't find enough phosphorus to
23   take out of the water.
24       Q.    Oh, okay.  Does he give you any indication
25   about what "enough" phosphorus would be?
                                                 233

 1       A.    No, he has not given us any indication.  He
 2   just needs something to work with.
 3       Q.    Do you know how much phosphorus he's
 4   looking for?
 5       A.    No.  I think he is going to let science
 6   take care of it, or the results take care of
 7   themselves.  It is very interesting, though.  Water
 8   Management District is watching that in Okeechobee
 9   County very close.
10             (The document was marked
11             Exb. No. 16.)
12   BY MR. KILLINGER:
13       Q.    I hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 16
14   and ask you if you recognize that document.  Again,
15   it is a composite so there may be multiple pages of
16   the draft.  "BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICE PUMP OPERATION
17   CRITERIA".  I believe they are all the same, though.
18             MR. GREEN:  What is -- counsel, excuse me.
19        What is the question pending, counsel?  I'm
20        sorry.
21             MR. KILLINGER:  I am just asking if he's
22        seen the documents in the composite exhibit.
23             THE WITNESS:  I am familiar with most of
24        the documents.  There is one letter from Scott
25        Benyon to Woody.  I had never seen a copy of
                                                 234

 1        that letter before, although I knew that
 2        question had been asked and raised.
 3   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 4       Q.    Okay.  The first page is a memo to the
 5   Everglades Agricultural Area Water Management
 6   Advisory Committee from Ron Graydon; is that correct?
 7       A.    Yes.
 8       Q.    Who is Ron Graydon?
 9       A.    He's the manager of nine or ten water
10   management districts in the subdistrict in the
11   Everglades Ag Area.
12       Q.    Okay.  Did you attend the meeting that's
13   referred to in this memo?
14       A.    I'm sure I did.
15       Q.    Do you recall what it was about?
16       A.    This was an advisory group to 298 District.
17       Q.    Okay.  What was the advisory group advising
18   about?
19       A.    Mainly advice on directions that the 298
20   should take; strategies and so forth.
21       Q.    Why were BMPs being evaluated with regard
22   to the 298 District?
23       A.    The BMPs were proposals being made by the
24   farm interests to the District; things that we could
25   live with possibly.
                                                 235

 1       Q.    Okay.  Were the BMPs intended to control
 2   phosphorus in agricultural runoff?
 3       A.    Secondly.
 4       Q.    Secondly.  What was their primary --
 5       A.    Divert stormwater away from Lake
 6   Okeechobee.
 7       Q.    Why was diversion of stormwater away from
 8   Lake Okeechobee seen as important?
 9       A.    It is important for us to get a permit.
10   298 District pumps the urban areas as well as the
11   farm areas out there.
12       Q.    Okay.  Was stormwater runoff causing a
13   problem in Okeechobee?
14       A.    A perceived problem.
15       Q.    Okay.  And what was that?
16       A.    Phosphorus loadings.
17       Q.    Have the 298s, in fact, diverted their
18   runoff, to your knowledge?
19       A.    No.
20       Q.    Does it still go into the lake?
21       A.    Yes.
22       Q.    Are you still advising the 298 District?
23       A.    This committee was dissolved a couple years
24   ago.
25       Q.    What were the committees conclusions?
                                                 236

 1       A.    We never got to the conclusions.
 2       Q.    Okay.
 3             (The document was marked
 4             Exb. No. 17.)
 5   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 6       Q.    I'll give you an exhibit I have marked 17
 7   and ask you if you recognize it, despite the fact
 8   that some of the Xeroxing is not very clear.
 9       A.    What was the question on this?
10       Q.    Have you seen this document before?
11       A.    Not that I can remember.
12       Q.    If you look at the front page, over to the
13   right-hand side of the "TO:" line; does that appear
14   to be your name?
15       A.    That's my name.  I was probably copied on
16   it, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have read it.
17   In 1989 my shirttail wasn't hitting my butt too
18   often.  I was on the Water Management board.
19       Q.    If you look at the first page of the actual
20   typing, down at the bottom of the last paragraph,
21   about five lines up, there is a sentence that reads,
22   "Generally accepted scientific evidence proves that
23   the Water Conservation Areas serve as a nutrient sink
24   greatly reducing nutrients concentrations long before
25   they reach the park boundaries".  Do you agree with
                                                 237

 1   that statement?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    Can you point me to the generally accepted
 4   scientific evidence which proves that?
 5       A.    Only thing I think, they are probably
 6   referring to their readings; that the Water
 7   Management District has this in their records.
 8       Q.    Water Management District records prove
 9   that?
10       A.    As far as I know.
11       Q.    And if you flip to the top of the next
12   page, I believe portions of the same lines of that
13   paragraph are retyped, but it says, "It makes no
14   sense to set equally stringent standards for water
15   entering systems designed for flood control and water
16   conservation as for waters entering Everglades
17   National Park".  I think this harkens back to the
18   discussion we had earlier today.  Does that state
19   your opinion about what the water quality standards
20   should be?
21       A.    I would agree with that opinion.
22       Q.    Okay.  The last sentence of the next
23   paragraph makes reference to the League's standing
24   ready to bring in recognized scientific experts who
25   will assist in identifying any problems.  Do you know
                                                 238

 1   who those League experts might be?
 2       A.    No, I don't.
 3       Q.    Do you know whether the League has, in
 4   fact, brought in recognized experts?
 5       A.    No, I don't.
 6       Q.    Thank you.
 7       A.    Can you till me who sent this?  It says
 8   "TO:", and I can't read it.  Have you got a better
 9   copy?
10       Q.    Mine doesn't, I don't think, read any
11   better than yours.
12       A.    I see Jeff Ward sent it out.
13       Q.    It looks to me, just speculating, that it
14   might be George Wedgworth.  Just the same sort of
15   handwriting.  It looks like it's got a curve to it.
16       A.    Okay.  It came from the Sugar Cane League
17   in Clewiston.  I guess Jeff was at a meeting --
18       Q.    I'm not sure who it went to originally.
19       A.    -- and faxed it over.  I'd say you're
20   right.
21             (The document was marked
22             Exb. No. 18.)
23   BY MR. KILLINGER:
24       Q.    I give you what I have marked as Exhibit 18
25   and I would ask you to scan the document and let me
                                                 239

 1   know if you're familiar with it.
 2       A.    No, I'm not familiar with this one.
 3       Q.    Okay.
 4             MR. GREEN:  Excuse me, counsel.  Just for
 5        the record, can you tell me where you got this
 6        document?  I mean, I just want to know whether
 7        it came out of the production of Mr. Stein.
 8             MR. KILLINGER:  No, it did not come from
 9        Mr. Stein's production.
10             MR. GREEN:  Did it come from Mr. Wedgworth?
11             MR. KILLINGER:  I believe it came from
12        Mr. Wedgworth's production, but I'm not certain.
13             MR. GREEN:  I'm not either.  I just want to
14        ask.  It is not a big point.  I just don't think
15        it did from either.
16   BY MR. KILLINGER:
17       Q.    Can you tell me, Mr. Stein, who is on the
18   Environmental Quality Committee?
19       A.    Today?
20       Q.    Yes.
21       A.    I have no idea.
22       Q.    This says at the top, "Environmental
23   Quality Committee/EAA/WCA Management Committee".  Is
24   that all one committee?
25       A.    No, it is the League.  I assume they have
                                                 240

 1   added on two other areas of concern.
 2       Q.    This is a committee of the League?
 3       A.    The eastern Environmental Quality Committee
 4   is.
 5       Q.    Do you know who was on it at the time
 6   January of 1990?
 7       A.    No, I don't.
 8       Q.    Have you ever been a member of it?
 9       A.    No.
10       Q.    If you could turn back into the document
11   with me, 11 or 12 pages in there is a page numbered 9
12   at the top.  It reads "Goals and Requirements of the
13   WCA/ENP SWIM plan".  The bottom bullet says "Set 0.03
14   mg/l for annual average (P) for each basin total
15   discharge to WCAs."  And then, at the bottom, it has
16   "(From fig. 2 Draft Everglades SWIM Plan Volume I,
17   8/9/89)".  Can you tell me what the point 0.03
18   milligrams per liter number refers to?
19             MR. GREEN:  Well, counsel, let me just
20        object.  More of a clarification.
21             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.
22             MR. GREEN:  Have you asked Mr. Stein
23        whether he's ever seen this document?
24   BY MR. KILLINGER:
25       Q.    Have you ever seen this document,
                                                 241

 1   Mr. Stein?
 2       A.    No.
 3             MR. KILLINGER:  I was assuming he had not
 4        seen it because he said he hadn't when he
 5        scanned through it.
 6             MR. GREEN:  If he knows the answer, he's
 7        welcome to answer it.
 8             MR. KILLINGER:  I'll rephrase it.  It is
 9        poorly stated anyway.
10   BY MR. KILLINGER:
11       Q.    Do you recall what the annual average
12   phosphorus discharge level, or limit, was going to be
13   in the SWIM Plan draft that was dated 8/9/1989?
14       A.    I think this is -- I really don't know -- I
15   think the 0.03 is the rainfall that was taken from a
16   gauge in Everglades National Park, and a gauge right
17   close to this building we are in here now.
18       Q.    So you think the 0.03 was determined by
19   measuring rainfall?
20       A.    I think that was the rainfall reading at
21   Everglades National Park and at the District
22   headquarters.
23       Q.    Was the SWIM Plan of that draft date going
24   to use that as an annual average discharge level?
25       A.    To the best of my knowledge.  That never
                                                 242

 1   came to be, so --
 2       Q.    Okay.
 3             MR. GREEN:  Excuse me.  What was the
 4        question?  I'm sorry.  Would you read back the
 5        question again?
 6             (Thereupon, a portion of the record
 7              was read by the reporter.)
 8   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 9       Q.    Are you familiar with the SWIM Plan which
10   was ultimately adopted by the Water Management
11   District?
12       A.    No.
13       Q.    Have you read it?
14       A.    No.
15       Q.    Have you discussed it with anyone?
16       A.    Very vaguely.
17       Q.    Okay.  Who have you discussed it with?
18       A.    Possibly Jeff Ward and Mr. Wedgworth.
19       Q.    Do you recall the context of those
20   discussions, why you were discussing it?
21       A.    What comes to mind, basically, and it is
22   not any great detail, but that it was based on the
23   settlement agreement.
24       Q.    Do you know what the annual average
25   phosphorus discharge level, or limit for discharge to
                                                 243

 1   the WCAs, is set to be in the present --
 2       A.    No.
 3       Q.    -- SWIM Plan?
 4       A.    No.
 5       Q.    If you'll continues to turn back in that
 6   document to the page which reads number 14 at the
 7   top, number three down there says, "Cost effective
 8   WMAs on Non-ag property".
 9             I recognize you haven't seen this before,
10   but if we assume that WMAs means water management
11   areas, can you tell me whether you have been involved
12   in any discussions regarding water management areas
13   on nonagricultural property?
14       A.    I haven't been involved in any, huh-uh.
15   See, this is titled Florida Sugar Cane League SWIM
16   plan.
17       Q.    I recognize that.
18       A.    I had no input in there.  In fact, I was
19   kind of a bastard child during this time.
20       Q.    Why is that?
21       A.    Because I served on the board over here.
22   I'd say that's probably the reason I never knew
23   anything about this document.
24       Q.    That could be.  Well, if we continue to
25   flip back, you'll find a sheet that has the number 19
                                                 244

 1   at the top.  That refers to cost effective WMAs on
 2   non ag lands, and the next line down reads, "Use
 3   public lands as WMAs (Nutrient Sinks)".  Do you
 4   recall whether that was a concept that was being
 5   discussed by the League or the Co-op around the date
 6   of this document, 1990?
 7       A.    I wasn't involved in any discussions.
 8       Q.    Okay.  Just as an aside, number 4 on that
 9   sheet indicates -- it says, "WCA-2A:  Use existing
10   cattail-invaded and overdrained areas".  Again
11   recognizing this is not a document you are familiar
12   with, do you know whether the League considers that
13   there are areas in WCA-2A that are cattail invaded?
14       A.    I imagine they do.  I do.
15       Q.    Okay.  Would those be the areas that we
16   discussed yesterday?
17       A.    I'm sure.
18             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
19             THE WITNESS:  I'm sure it is.
20   BY MR. KILLINGER:
21       Q.    We were discussing cattails in WCA-2A.  I
22   believe you made reference to --
23       A.    Yesterday.
24       Q.    Yes.
25       A.    Uh-huh.
                                                 245

 1       Q.    That's all I'm going to do with that one.
 2             (The document was marked
 3             Exb. No. 19.)
 4   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 5       Q.    I'll show you what I have marked as Exhibit
 6   19 and ask you if you have seen it.
 7       A.    Yes, I have seen it.
 8       Q.    Can you identify it for me?
 9       A.    Yes.  This is a presentation that -- I was
10   on a panel that appeared before the Farm Credit
11   System, National Directors Conference, held in
12   Orlando, Florida, September 24, 1990.
13       Q.    Okay.  And is this, essentially, a
14   transcript of a presentation that you gave?
15       A.    This is it in total.
16       Q.    Okay.
17       A.    You want to know the other people that were
18   on it?
19       Q.    Yes.
20       A.    You got a guy named Richard Harvey in your
21   organization, Woody Wodraska, Louis "Red" Larson,
22   Doyle O'Conner, Andy Rackley, Charlie Lee.
23       Q.    Of the Audubon Society?
24       A.    Yes.  Myself.  I think that's it.
25       Q.    On the second page, about midway down in
                                                 246

 1   that paragraph, is a line that says, "I am speaking
 2   of those who would have government tell the farmer
 3   when and on how much of his land to plant, when to
 4   irrigate, what fertilizers and pesticides can be used
 5   and in what quantities, even dictating what crops to
 6   plant".  Would it be safe to say that you object to
 7   government regulation of farming?
 8             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 9             THE WITNESS:  I told you, I think
10        yesterday, that farming is not an exact science
11        and probably the people furtherest away from the
12        ground are the regulators, and what they know
13        about fertilizers, pesticides and all that I
14        could probably write it on my little fingernail,
15        and you should leave producing food to food
16        producers that know what they are doing, because
17        this is no place for government to get into
18        telling what you crops, how to do it and all
19        that.  I farm different than my neighbor --
20   BY MR. KILLINGER:
21       Q.    Okay.
22       A.    -- as you have already determined.
23       Q.    Well, do you think that any regulation by
24   the government of the farming industry is a good
25   thing?
                                                 247

 1             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 2             THE WITNESS:  I'm against regulation.
 3   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 4       Q.    Could you flip to the next page, please?
 5   The last line of the first paragraph says, "The state
 6   may, and often does, impose more stringent standards
 7   than those at the federal level, and the local
 8   standards can be, and often are, more stringent than
 9   state standards".  Do you see that as a problem; that
10   the standards may be different from states, working
11   its way to federal level?
12             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
13             You may answer.
14             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Would you read the
15        question --
16   BY MR. KILLINGER:
17       Q.    I can just reask it.  That's fine.
18       A.    Okay.
19       Q.    What problems, what headaches, does it
20   cause you, as a farmer, to have local standards be
21   more stringent than state standards, and state
22   standards be more stringent than federal standards?
23       A.    Because I am against regulations.  I don't
24   want to get tied up where I can't move and each step
25   you make, the more stringent.  You're binding me
                                                 248

 1   tighter.
 2       Q.    Okay.  Three lines then into the beginning
 3   of the next paragraph there is a reference to a
 4   chart.
 5       A.    Yeah.
 6       Q.    I don't believe you produced that chart.
 7   Do you recall what it showed?
 8       A.    There it is right here.
 9       Q.    That's the chart?  Okay.  That's fine.
10   I'll ask you --
11       A.    In fact, it was a slide.
12       Q.    A slide?  Okay.
13       A.    That's it right here.
14       Q.    Okay.  It is attached.  It says "phosphorus
15   concentrations".
16       A.    Yes.  And it has the backup information;
17   sources and everything.
18       Q.    Right.  Okay.  Going down to that
19   paragraph, you make the statement that "sugar cane
20   field discharges contain five times less phosphorus
21   than that found by an EPA study to be the national
22   average discharge from urban residential lawns"; is
23   that correct?
24             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.  Is what
25        correct?
                                                 249

 1   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 2       Q.    Did I correctly read that sentence?  I
 3   guess the document speaks for itself.
 4       A.    The document should speak for itself.  It
 5   is referred to here.  "Urban residential national
 6   mean runoff."
 7       Q.    All right.  Does most of the national
 8   average discharge, urban residential runoff,
 9   eventually wind up in the Everglades?
10       A.    I'm sure some of it does.  I'm not sure all
11   of it does, no.
12       Q.    Do you consider the Everglades to be
13   unique?
14       A.    Yes, they sure are unique.
15       Q.    Do you know whether the Everglades are even
16   generally thought of as being susceptible to
17   increased levels of nutrients?
18             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
19             MR. KILLINGER:  I'm sorry.  I'll just
20        restate it.
21   BY MR. KILLINGER:
22       Q.    Would you agree with the statement that
23   increased levels of nutrients in the Everglades cause
24   the ecosystem of the Everglades to change?
25             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
                                                 250

 1             THE WITNESS:  No.
 2   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 3       Q.    You would not agree with that?
 4       A.    No.
 5       Q.    Okay.  On the next page it says that "we
 6   have been repeatedly" -- first full paragraph -- "we
 7   have been repeatedly assured that best management
 8   practices are being developed by our experiment
 9   stations which will make it possible for farmers to
10   meet stringent standards to be imposed on
11   agricultural stormwater runoff".  Who has repeatedly
12   assured you of that?
13       A.    What is the date of this presentation?
14   September 24, 1990.  Forrest Izuno.
15       Q.    How has he made those assurances?
16       A.    I don't understand your question.
17       Q.    Has he called you on the telephone and
18   said, "This is what we are working on," or has he
19   given you written reports?
20       A.    No, these are comments that he makes
21   offhandedly.
22       Q.    Okay.  The next sentence says, "But the
23   scientist who head up the BMP research efforts in our
24   area" and it goes on -- who is that scientist?
25       A.    Forrest Izuno.
                                                 251

 1       Q.    When I asked you who had assured you, you
 2   asked for the date of the document.  Does that mean
 3   Mr. Izuno is not presently working with you?
 4       A.    He is working for IFAS.
 5       Q.    For IFAS.  Okay.
 6       A.    He is an IFAS scientist and he's doing BMP
 7   work today.  That's the reason I wanted to go back to
 8   that date.  At that point in time, that statement was
 9   a good statement.
10       Q.    Okay.  Towards the end of that paragraph it
11   says, "Indeed, the Department of Justice recently
12   blocked a National Academy of Sciences study of the
13   Everglades controversy".  Can you fill me in on the
14   details of your background for that statement?
15       A.    Uh-huh.  It was our board.  It was
16   recommended by our board that we go to the National
17   Academy of Sciences and bring it in, because we felt
18   that they were a qualified body to review U.S.
19   Justice Department stuff.  Dexter stopped that.
20       Q.    How did they stop it?
21       A.    Told them you can't go.
22       Q.    How did he tell them that?
23       A.    I imagine in a letter.  I imagine it is
24   documented somewhere.  There ought to be something in
25   the bowels of this organization here to find out, or
                                                 252

 1   Cathy's organization, somewhere.
 2       Q.    Do you know what why he said that?
 3       A.    Why he stopped them?
 4       Q.    Yes.
 5       A.    I have no idea.  I think he stopped the guy
 6   from the Smithsonian the same way.
 7       Q.    Why do you think that?
 8       A.    I don't understand it.  I don't know.
 9       Q.    No.  But why do you think he stopped
10   somebody from the Smithsonian?
11       A.    Why do I think?
12       Q.    Yes.
13       A.    I don't know what he is afraid of, what
14   they might do or might uncover, but he said he would
15   not allow another governmental agency, U.S.
16   government agency, to get in here and do any
17   research.
18       Q.    So someone from the Smithsonian proposed to
19   do some research?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    And he vetoed that?
22       A.    He vetoed that.
23       Q.    Could we turn to the exhibit, the chart
24   that went with this.  I guess working from the top
25   down, the first bar graph you have shows advanced
                                                 253

 1   waste water plant effluents.
 2       A.    Uh-huh.
 3       Q.    Then it shows a certain phosphorus
 4   concentration.
 5       A.    Uh-huh.
 6       Q.    Can you tell me what the horizontal axis of
 7   that graph indicates; point one, point two and on up
 8   the scale?  Is it milligrams per liter?
 9       A.    One milligram per liter.  The urban
10   highway -- you want to go down them?
11       Q.    Well, I want to ask you a question about
12   this.  Do you know any waste water treatment plants
13   which discharge into the Everglades?
14       A.    No, I don't.
15       Q.    Do you know whether waste water treatment
16   plants exist for the purpose of trying to treat
17   sewage effluent?  Is that the purpose of the waste
18   water treatment plants?
19       A.    Yes; to treat.
20       Q.    Okay.  Is agricultural runoff from the EAA
21   treated at all at this point?
22       A.    No.
23       Q.    The next line down urban roadway runoff --
24       A.    Okay.  Point 70 milligrams per liter.
25       Q.    Points 07 milligrams per liter.  Do you
                                                 254

 1   know whether any urban roadway runoff makes its way
 2   to the Everglades?
 3       A.    I'm sure it does.
 4       Q.    Okay.  Do you know where that would come
 5   from?
 6       A.    Urban areas.
 7       Q.    Such as Miami?
 8       A.    Such as Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm
 9   Beach, Delray, and all the way down the eastern
10   seaboard.
11       Q.    Do you have any idea how much?
12       A.    No, I don't.
13       Q.    The next line down is urban residential
14   runoff.  Do you have any idea --
15       A.    Point 62 milligrams per liter.
16       Q.    Point 62.  The next line down is Walt
17   Disney Epcot runoff.
18       A.    Roadway runoff.
19       Q.    Is that roadway runoff at Epcot?
20       A.    Point 22 milligrams per liter.
21       Q.    And then the next line is sugar cane
22   runoff, which you have set at --
23       A.    Point 126 milligrams per liter.
24       Q.    Do you know whether that is still the
25   present level?
                                                 255

 1       A.    I am quoting 1978.
 2       Q.    Okay.  That's why I wondered if it was
 3   still the present level, if you know.
 4       A.    I don't know.
 5       Q.    The next line is rainfall.
 6       A.    Uh-huh.
 7       Q.    And what is --
 8       A.    Point 10 milligrams per liter.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Do you know where that rainfall
10   reference was, where the sample was taken from?
11       A.    Concentration of rainfall Florida Statewide
12   average.
13       Q.    Okay.
14       A.    There's a document that would have that in
15   it.
16       Q.    Do you know whether the statewide average
17   is the same as the average rainfall that falls in the
18   Everglades?
19       A.    I don't know.  I haven't seen any figures
20   on the rainfall in the Everglades.
21       Q.    Okay.  Do you know whether agriculture has
22   any effect on the level of phosphorus which comes
23   back out of the rainfall?
24             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
25             THE WITNESS:  Would you ask the question
                                                 256

 1        again?
 2   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 3       Q.    Do you know whether agricultural practices
 4   have any effect on the level of phosphorus which
 5   comes back down in rainfall?
 6       A.    In rainfall, no.
 7       Q.    You don't know?
 8       A.    I don't know.
 9       Q.    Okay.  And then you have South Florida
10   Water Management District proposed runoff goal --
11       A.    Uh-huh.
12       Q.    -- of point 03 milligrams per liter.
13       A.    Uh-huh.
14       Q.    And that's still from the draft.  That's
15   from the draft SWIM plan, dated August 9, '89?
16       A.    Uh-huh.
17       Q.    Is that the proposed ultimate goal from
18   that SWIM plan or is that an interim standard?
19       A.    That was a goal.  Runoff goal in the
20   original SWIM plan.
21       Q.    Did the original SWIM plan have an interim
22   level --
23       A.    Not that I remember.
24       Q.    -- that they were trying to reach?
25       A.    Not that I remember.
                                                 257

 1       Q.    Okay.  And finally we have the
 2   U. S. Attorneys' proposed runoff standard of point 01
 3   milligrams per liter; is that correct?
 4       A.    Correct.
 5       Q.    This may already have been asked and
 6   answered, but do you know where he came up with that
 7   number?
 8       A.    No, I don't.
 9       Q.    Have you asked where he came up with that
10   number?
11       A.    No.
12             (Thereupon, a luncheon recess was taken.)
13 
                                                 258

 1                    AFTERNOON SESSION
 2 
 3   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 4       Q.    I think that I was finished with the last
 5   exhibit, so I'll just go on to the next exhibit.  I
 6   hand you what I'll have marked as Exhibit Number 20
 7   and ask you if you can identify it for me.
 8             (The document was marked
 9             Exb. No. 20.)
10   BY MR. KILLINGER:
11       Q.    Do you recognize that document?
12       A.    No.  It is copied to me, apparently.  I
13   don't remember the document.  I don't recall the
14   document.  I do know that there was a meeting here
15   with Governor Chiles.
16       Q.    That's what I wanted to ask you about.  Did
17   you attend the meeting?
18       A.    No.
19       Q.    Do you know who did attend the meeting?
20       A.    No, not totally.  I know Mr. Wedgworth
21   attended.
22       Q.    Do you know anybody else aside from the
23   governor?
24       A.    I think.  I'm not sure, but I think Nelson
25   Fairbanks was there also.  Beyond that, I don't know
                                                 259

 1   who was there.  Probably somebody from the Fanjul
 2   organization.  Probably Carson.  I wasn't there and I
 3   really don't know.
 4       Q.    Do you know -- I know you weren't there,
 5   but do you know if a presentation was made to the
 6   governor at that meeting?
 7       A.    All I know is they had a meeting with the
 8   governor.  I don't know what transpired.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Did you get a report about the
10   meeting after the attendees, Mr. Wedgworth, et al
11   returned?  Do you know the outcome; the result?
12       A.    No.  He might have mentioned it to me, but
13   I don't recall anything about it.
14             (The document was marked
15             Exb. No. 21.)
16   BY MR. KILLINGER:
17       Q.    I hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 21
18   and ask you if you can identify that document.
19       A.    Yes.  This was some questions and comments
20   that I was going to make at the workshop on the
21   Everglades SWIM Plan February 13, 1991.
22       Q.    This is a transcript of questions and
23   comments that you read aloud at the meeting?
24       A.    No.
25       Q.    Did you actually post these questions and
                                                 260

 1   comments at the meeting?
 2       A.    No.
 3       Q.    Why not?
 4       A.    Governor Chiles called down and told our
 5   chairman we would not consider the Everglades SWIM
 6   Plan.
 7       Q.    Do you know why he did that?
 8       A.    He took control.  I assume he wanted his
 9   board to do what he told them to do.
10       Q.    So what discussion -- were you at the
11   meeting on February 13?
12       A.    Sure was.
13       Q.    What discussion of the Everglades SWIM plan
14   was there at that meeting?
15       A.    Absolutely none.
16       Q.    Was there an announcement made that the
17   board was not going to consider it?
18       A.    Yes.
19       Q.    Were you in favor of the SWIM plan which
20   was going to be voted on that day?
21       A.    Was I in favor?
22       Q.    Yes.
23       A.    No.
24       Q.    Okay.  Why not?
25       A.    I did not think that we had the problem
                                                 261

 1   pinpointed and I know we didn't have a solution
 2   pinpointed.
 3       Q.    Are the concerns that you had at that time
 4   set forth in these questions and comments?
 5       A.    Probably some of them.  I might have had
 6   more.
 7       Q.    In paragraph 1 of this exhibit it states
 8   that, "For the last two years we have been told time
 9   and time again that Everglades National Park is
10   receiving excellent quality water".  Do you recall
11   who had been telling you that time and time again?
12       A.    On our board package there is always a
13   water quality report, and in that was a chart
14   specifically for Everglades National Park.
15       Q.    Okay.  Was it a chart that listed water
16   samples that were tested for certain parameters?
17       A.    Yes.
18       Q.    Was it interpreted?  Was there a narrative
19   report that Everglades National Park was receiving
20   excellent quality water?
21       A.    Yes.
22       Q.    Okay.  If you flip to the second page,
23   paragraph three, it indicates that the board had been
24   given a Post Buckley study of the ENR project.  Do
25   you recall reviewing that study?
                                                 262

 1       A.    I imagine I did.  I don't recall
 2   specifically, but I imagine I did.  The point there
 3   that I wanted to make was that had it been subject to
 4   peer review, which it had not.
 5       Q.    It had not?
 6       A.    No, it had not.  And the staff -- at that
 7   particular time the staff had told us that it would
 8   be subject to peer review, and my question was when
 9   are they going to do it and what are the results?
10       Q.    Do you know if it is being done now?
11       A.    No, I don't know.
12       Q.    In paragraph 5, the last sentence makes a
13   reference to permitting vegetable production to
14   continue despite certain SWIM plan requirements.  Do
15   you have any evidence or any indication that
16   vegetable production will be forced to cease because
17   of the SWIM plan requirements?
18       A.    It could have.  You know, as far as that
19   SWIM plan is concerned, that's not the SWIM plan
20   that's there today.
21       Q.    Right.  I understand that.
22       A.    This was another SWIM plan that was
23   involved.
24       Q.    Right.  Did you have any evidence that that
25   SWIM plan was going to cause vegetable production to
                                                 263

 1   cease because they couldn't comply with the
 2   requirements?
 3       A.    No, other than just experience.
 4       Q.    On, I suppose it is the last page, down at
 5   the bottom, last two lines, you make the statement
 6   that you would urge the board, I suppose it is, to
 7   "proceed with caution and wait for the science to
 8   come in before doing the politically expedient thing
 9   and throwing into jeopardy the jobs of many thousands
10   of people and threatening the livelihood of several
11   communities with a total population in excess of
12   40,000 people".  Do you know of any estimates of the
13   numbers of people that the SWIM plan requirements,
14   and by that I mean the SWIM plan that was being
15   discussed here, how many thousands of people the SWIM
16   plan requirements would have jeopardized with that
17   work?
18             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
19             THE WITNESS:  Loss of jobs or number of
20        people in the community?
21   BY MR. KILLINGER:
22       Q.    You say, "throwing into jeopardy the jobs
23   of many thousands of people".
24       A.    "And threatening the lives of several
25   communities, with a total population in excess of
                                                 264

 1   40,000."
 2       Q.    So are you saying the SWIM plan --these
 3   requirements were going to throw into jeopardy the
 4   jobs of 40,000 people?
 5       A.    It could.
 6       Q.    Do you have any more specific economic
 7   projections than that?
 8       A.    No.
 9             (The document was marked
10             Exb. No. 22.)
11   BY MR. KILLINGER:
12       Q.    I would like to give you Exhibit 22 and ask
13   you if you can identify it for me.
14       A.    Yes.  This is a letter written to the
15   editor of the Gainesville Sun, dated March the 7th,
16   1991.
17       Q.    What prompted you to write this letter?
18       A.    They had an editorial in there, so I
19   decided to comment, because they jumped on me in
20   particular.
21       Q.    Do you recall what they said about you?
22       A.    Not in exact words.  They indicated I was a
23   sugar grower and should not be sitting on the board
24   of the South Florida Water Management District.
25       Q.    In the first paragraph it says that the
                                                 265

 1   article claimed that you helped determine how much
 2   cane farmers will pay into the Everglades SWIM Plan.
 3   You disputed that; is that correct?
 4       A.    Uh-huh.
 5       Q.    To your knowledge, has there been any
 6   determination made to this day about how much the
 7   cane farmers will pay under the Everglades SWIM Plan?
 8       A.    No.
 9       Q.    Do you know when that determination is
10   supposed to be made?
11       A.    The way this whole process moves, like a
12   flying duck, when that duck gets shot down, that will
13   be determined.
14       Q.    Do you know what procedures are supposed to
15   be used to make the determination of how much cane
16   farmers will pay?
17       A.    No, I don't, but it changes every time they
18   have a meeting.
19       Q.    Okay.  When you say "it changes every time
20   we have a meeting" --
21       A.    "They."
22       Q.    "They" have a meeting?  The board?
23       A.    The Water Management Board.
24       Q.    Do you know whether the Marjory Stoneman
25   Douglas Act sets forth any requirements for
                                                 266

 1   allocating costs?
 2             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 3             THE WITNESS:  I think it does, but I don't
 4        recall it specifically.  What did I say in here?
 5        Maybe I should have read this document before I
 6        started answering.
 7   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 8       Q.    Take your time.  That's fine.
 9       A.    Okay.
10       Q.    Have you ever reviewed the text of the
11   Everglades SWIM Act?
12       A.    The original SWIM Act?
13       Q.    The original SWIM Act.
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    Have you ever reviewed the original of the
16   text of the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas Act?
17       A.    I reviewed it, but I don't have it in front
18   of me to recall anything from it.
19       Q.    I guess I'll ask this question again:  Do
20   you recall whether the Act sets forth any guidelines
21   on allocation of cost?
22       A.    I think there was some mentioned, but I
23   would have to review the Act.
24       Q.    The next line in that first paragraph says
25   that in all instances you abstained from voting for
                                                 267

 1   or against any of the various drafts.  I believe you
 2   told me yesterday that you had abstained from voting,
 3   but I have seen some exhibits that we have put out
 4   here that indicate that you did make comments on the
 5   SWIM plan.  Did you make public comments to the board
 6   on the record about the SWIM plan?
 7       A.    I'm sure I did.
 8       Q.    So do you think the board knew your views?
 9       A.    I imagine they did.
10       Q.    In the next full paragraph, about four
11   lines down, the sentence begins with, "Indeed, well
12   before the SWIM plan development process began, a
13   District scientist made this allegation and claimed
14   that a cattail monoculture covered 20,000 acres of
15   the Water Conservation Areas".  When you say, "Well
16   before the SWIM plan development process began", can
17   you tell me about when that was?
18       A.    It was probable prior to me coming on the
19   board, and it was made by Walt Dineen.
20       Q.    You don't recall the year, though?
21       A.    No.
22       Q.    Do you disagree with his allegations?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    Why do you disagree with his allegations?
25       A.    They are not true.
                                                 268

 1       Q.    What do you base your knowledge that they
 2   are not true on?
 3       A.    I have been out there several times.
 4       Q.    So it is based on personal observation?
 5       A.    Personal observation and also somewhere
 6   there was a drawing made cross-sections and so forth,
 7   that showed that this was untrue.
 8       Q.    Do you know who made the drawings?
 9       A.    No, I don't remember.
10       Q.    Do you know where the drawing might be?
11       A.    I don't know whether it is in the District
12   files or it could be in the Sugar Cane League files.
13   I'm not sure.  One place or the other.
14       Q.    What about the statement that "there is a
15   cattail monoculture covering 20,000 acres" do you
16   disagree with?  Is it the acreage or the fact that it
17   is a monoculture or what?
18       A.    You have got a mixed marsh out there.  You
19   do have some areas of monoculture, but I don't agree
20   with the 20,000 acres.
21       Q.    Would you be comfortable with a 10,000 acre
22   figure?
23       A.    No, I would be comfortable with none other
24   than what can be determined by a competent engineer
25   or scientist.
                                                 269

 1       Q.    Well, by your answer do you mean you're
 2   just not willing to speculate on the acreage or do
 3   you mean you are not willing to admit that there are
 4   any acres of cattail monoculture?
 5       A.    There may be a few acres of monoculture,
 6   which monoculture means no other vegetation is there
 7   but cattails.
 8       Q.    Okay.  Can you give me a rough estimate
 9   without --
10       A.    No, I can't.  All I can do is disagree with
11   that number.
12       Q.    In the next paragraph you make reference to
13   a physical inspection.  Who did the physical
14   inspection?
15       A.    Meanwhile, what did the physical evidence
16   on the ground show?
17       Q.    Yes.
18       A.    Physical inspection showed there was no
19   20,000 acre monoculture of cattail.
20       Q.    Do you know who did the physical
21   inspection?
22       A.    No.  That's the one I am talking about.
23       Q.    Right.
24       A.    That exists somewhere.
25       Q.    So that's the one from which they did a
                                                 270

 1   drawing or cross-section?
 2       A.    Yes.  Did cross-sections.
 3       Q.    Okay.  Going on in the document, you
 4   indicate -- it says, "The cattails were not expanding
 5   at all, much less at a rate of five acres per day".
 6   What is the basis for your statement that the
 7   cattails were not expanding at all?
 8       A.    I gave you the answer just before this.  On
 9   that field visit, that was cross-sectioned and so
10   forth.
11       Q.    Was it a single field visit or was it a
12   study over time, the physical inspection?
13       A.    I don't think it was a single field visit.
14   It was the result of many visits probably.
15       Q.    Okay.
16       A.    By "over time", I don't know whether you
17   mean one day, two days, ten days or ten years.
18       Q.    I guess what I am wondering is how you know
19   from visits that were compiled into a drawing which
20   shows a fixed point in time whether or not there was
21   an expansion.
22       A.    It would be over time, yeah.
23       Q.    In the next paragraph you indicate that
24   cattail native to the Everglades "was found to exist
25   in abundance in certain areas unimpacted by any
                                                 271

 1   agricultural nutrients during the first vegetative
 2   mapping of the Everglades".
 3       A.    That's a record.
 4       Q.    Which map is that?
 5       A.    I don't know exactly which one it is, but
 6   it is --
 7       Q.    Would you recognize it if you saw it?
 8       A.    Probably.
 9       Q.    There is a map that I believe was done in
10   1943 by a man named Davis.
11       A.    I don't remember whether that was it or
12   not.  Could have been.
13       Q.    Well, hang on for a second.  I guess what I
14   would like to do is show you this map and see if you
15   think this is the map that you're making reference to
16   in this article.  I'm not sure whether that's it or
17   not.  It does show cattails in there, doesn't it?
18       Q.    I believe it shows an area of sawgrass
19   marsh with some abundant cattails.
20       A.    Cattails here now.
21       Q.    That's the legend right there.
22       A.    Uh-huh.  This is prior to Central and South
23   Florida.
24       Q.    Now, looking at this map, looking at the
25   areas on the map right next to Lake Okeechobee, this
                                                 272

 1   area with the crosshatched lines --
 2       A.    Sawgrass marshes.
 3       Q.    Okay.  What's the next band out?
 4       A.    Willow, elders.  Elderberries.  Willow and
 5   elderberry.
 6       Q.    Is that area mostly cultivated?
 7       A.    It is all cultivated.  You mean today?
 8       Q.    Well, at the time of the map.
 9       A.    It is mostly cultivated, but that was not
10   true because --
11       Q.    Why don't we just take back the part you
12   just characterized as sawgrass marsh.  Would you look
13   again at the legend right under your finger?  I think
14   it may not be sawgrass marsh.
15       A.    Okay.  Custard apples, mostly cultivated.
16       Q.    Mostly cultivated at the time of the map?
17       A.    Uh-huh.
18       Q.    And then I think that the area immediately
19   south and east of that may be sawgrass.  Is that how
20   you would characterize it?
21       A.    Yeah.
22       Q.    Okay.  You say this may be the map that
23   you're thinking of?
24       A.    It could be the map.
25             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.  I suppose, Bill, if
                                                 273

 1        you would like, I could make this an exhibit.
 2        Not this, but I have a copy.
 3             MR. GREEN:  Can you tell from the copy what
 4        is what?
 5             MR. KILLINGER:  Well, you can tell it
 6        doesn't have color, but it is otherwise the
 7        same.
 8             MR. GREEN:  Well --
 9             MR. KILLINGER:  The spacing of the lines is
10        the determinative --
11             MR. GREEN:  It is illegible.
12             MR. KILLINGER:  I am trying to get a copy
13        of this made.
14             MR. GREEN:  It is up to you.  I think if
15        you're going to attach it, you'll have to attach
16        the original or some better copy of it in order
17        to make any sense out of it.
18             MR. KILLINGER:  I won't attach it then.  I
19        don't think it is that critical.
20             Okay.  I am just trying to find out how
21        many of these old maps there are, see if
22        everybody is talking about the same one when
23        they refer to the "old" map.
24   BY MR. KILLINGER:
25       Q.    In the last two lines on that first page it
                                                 274

 1   reads that, "Exaggerated claims of ecological harm to
 2   the Everglades have been made by scientists based on
 3   inadequate scientific investigation".  Which
 4   scientists were you referring to?
 5       A.    Mainly staff scientists here.  Walt Dineen
 6   mainly.
 7       Q.    Were there any federal scientists?
 8       A.    Not to my knowledge.
 9       Q.    Do you know how long those claims of
10   ecological harm had been made?
11       A.    No, I don't.  Best of my recollection, Walt
12   Dineen was the only one.
13       Q.    What was your basis for saying they were
14   based on inadequate scientific investigation?
15       A.    It has just been some observations and just
16   opinions.
17       Q.    Is it Mr. Dineen or Dr. Dineen?
18       A.    Wasn't doctor, I don't think.
19       Q.    Is it Walt Dineen's opinions and
20   observations?
21       A.    Walt Dineen, yeah.
22       Q.    It is his opinions and observations --
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    -- as opposed to a scientific analysis of a
25   problem?
                                                 275

 1       A.    Exactly, uh-huh.
 2       Q.    Okay.  Were his opinions and observations
 3   reduced to writing?
 4       A.    I think they were, yes.
 5       Q.    Were they presented to the board?
 6       A.    I don't remember if they were exactly
 7   presented to our board.  They were presented to one
 8   board somewhere along the line.
 9       Q.    Are those the only scientific claims, to
10   your knowledge, that the District has?
11       A.    In those days.
12       Q.    Okay.
13       A.    I don't know what's happened since then.
14   I'm sure they probably got more sophisticated than
15   just opinions and looking.
16       Q.    On the second page, again in the last
17   paragraph, you make a reference to thousands of
18   precious jobs being unnecessarily eliminated.  Can
19   you tell me how many jobs?
20       A.    No, I can't.
21       Q.    Can you tell me what the basis for your
22   statement is that thousands of jobs will be
23   eliminated?
24       A.    Based on taking a productive land and all,
25   that's the only basis you have.
                                                 276

 1       Q.    Okay.  Have you or the Co-op, to your
 2   knowledge, commissioned or reviewed any studies that
 3   would indicate how many jobs would be lost?
 4       A.    No.  We have an economist working on that
 5   now.
 6       Q.    Who would that be?
 7       A.    Dr. Ron Luke.
 8       Q.    Has he reached any conclusions?
 9       A.    I have not seen any conclusions.
10       Q.    Do you know when he is going to reach any
11   conclusions?
12       A.    No, I don't.
13       Q.    Has he got any preliminary conclusions?
14       A.    I haven't seen them.
15       Q.    Do you know how long he has been working on
16   it?
17       A.    Speculation is all.  Four or five months.
18             (The document was marked
19             Exb. No. 23.)
20   BY MR. KILLINGER:
21       Q.    I hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 23
22   and ask you if you have ever seen that document
23   before.
24       A.    I have seen the attachment.  I'm not sure
25   that I have seen the letter.
                                                 277

 1       Q.    Do you know who prepared the attachment?
 2       A.    I think Mr. Wedgworth prepared it.
 3       Q.    Do you know where he got his numbers?
 4       A.    No, I don't.
 5       Q.    On the second page of the letter, the first
 6   line in the last paragraph says, "As you can see,
 7   this Settlement Agreement will put many, if not all,
 8   small farmers out of business".  Do you know what
 9   Mr. Wedgworth might have meant by "small farmers"?
10       A.    Well, I think earlier on he refers to 52
11   small to medium-sized sugar cane farmers.
12       Q.    So is he essentially saying, you think --
13       A.    Referring to his growers, I think.
14       Q.    Okay.  Do you agree with that statement?
15       A.    Based on those figures, yes, and the
16   attachment.
17       Q.    Okay.  Well, then do you agree with those
18   figures?
19       A.    Roughly, yes.
20       Q.    Okay.  You don't know where the figures
21   came from?
22       A.    No.  I can see where some of them came
23   from.  SWIM plan.
24       Q.    All right.
25       A.    Settlement agreement.
                                                 278

 1       Q.    Can you tell me where the estimated project
 2   cost came from?
 3       A.    Settlement agreement.  What now?
 4       Q.    Were the estimated project cost number
 5   comes from.
 6       A.    It comes out of the settlement agreement
 7   apparently.  Up at the top of the page, there is a
 8   reference up there.
 9       Q.    Okay.
10       A.    The figures are based upon South Florida
11   Water Management District Staff Presentation of July
12   26, '91 board meeting.
13       Q.    Do you agree with the cost per ton of sugar
14   cane at 35 tons/net acre, $4.83?
15       A.    I imagine that's close.
16       Q.    What does that number mean?  What is cost
17   per ton of sugar cane?  Whose cost?
18       A.    Okay.  That's based on a ton -- the annual
19   cost per year per net acre, annual cost per year per
20   net acre at $169 assumes 15 percent of acreage for
21   roads, canals, levees, et cetera.
22       Q.    Is that the cost of the SWIM project per
23   net acre?
24       A.    Let's trace it right down the line.
25       Q.    Okay.
                                                 279

 1       A.    Estimated project cost, $600 million.
 2       Q.    Right.
 3       A.    Present acreage devoted to agriculture,
 4   559,000 acres; acreage to be removed from
 5   agricultural for STAs, 34,700 acres; gross acreage,
 6   to initially stay in agriculture, 524,300 acres.
 7             MR. GREEN:  Excuse me.  If I may interject,
 8        are you basically asking Mr. Stein to read this
 9        document into the record?
10             MR. KILLINGER:  No, I'm not.  I am just
11        asking him if the annual cost per year per net
12        acre refers to the cost that a landowner owning
13        that net acre would have to pay for the SWIM
14        programs that are proposed.
15             MR. GREEN:  Well, I guess he's testified he
16        didn't prepare this.
17             MR. KILLINGER:  No.  I know.  I am just
18        asking him how he interprets it.
19             MR. GREEN:  Fine.  If he knows.
20             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So the way I want to
21        interpret it is read the whole thing, and then I
22        think the bottom line will come out.
23             MR. GREEN:  Okay.
24             THE WITNESS:  So project capital cost per
25        gross acre, 600,000.  Divide -- $600 million
                                                 280

 1        divided by 524,300 acres equals $1,144 per acre.
 2        Farmers cost proposed to be 90 percent or $1,030
 3        per gross acres.  Assume 12-year bond issue at
 4        nine percent, interest cost per gross acre,
 5        $696.  Total principal and interest will equal
 6        $1726 per gross acre.  Annual cost per year per
 7        gross acre would be $144.  That's the cost that
 8        you were asking me?
 9   BY MR. KILLINGER:
10       Q.    Yes.
11       A.    Annual cost per year per net acre assumes
12   15 percent of acreage for roads, canals, levees and
13   so forth, would be 169 -- would jump that 144 to 169.
14       Q.    Right.
15       A.    Cost per ton of cane at 35 tons per acre
16   equals $4.83.
17       Q.    Would that cost per ton of sugar cane at 35
18   tons per net acre put Fritz Stein Farms, Incorporated
19   out of business?
20             MR. GREEN:  Object to the question.
21             And you are not required to answer that.
22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.
23             MR. GREEN:  In other words, do not answer
24        that, please.
25             MR. KILLINGER:  Well, I guess I would again
                                                 281

 1        ask you to reconsider, counselor.  This is a
 2        letter written to two representatives in
 3        Washington stating that it is going to put sugar
 4        growers out of business, citing a whole bunch of
 5        numbers, and I am trying to find out whether
 6        Mr. Stein, as a farmer, agrees with those
 7        numbers.  I'm not asking him what his cost of
 8        production is, I'm asking him whether it would
 9        be exceeded by the cost per ton of sugar cane
10        that's set forth in this document right here.
11        I'm not sure that hits too close to home.
12             MR. GREEN:  I think that the hearing
13        officer has indicated he is not going to hear
14        testimony in this hearing concerning the
15        economic impacts to any individual farmer or
16        sugar mill; okay?  To the extent that responding
17        to that question would require that Mr. Stein
18        get into his own individual economic situation,
19        I think that's beyond the scope of what the
20        hearing officer has determined to be permissible
21        discovery.
22             MR. KILLINGER:  Then I guess I'll state for
23        the record that I'm going to be mighty upset
24        when we get to the hearing and allegations are
25        made that one of the general regional
                                                 282

 1        socioeconomic impacts of the SWIM plan as it is
 2        presently stated is going to put growers out of
 3        business --
 4             MR. GREEN:  You may be upset.
 5             MR. KILLINGER:  -- if we are not allowed to
 6        ask questions on that, because I think we are
 7        entitled to discovery on that.
 8             MR. GREEN:  Well, let me respond.  As I
 9        understand it, the Hazen & Sawyer analysis is a
10        generic analysis which talks about generic farms
11        and numbers of jobs and farms that might go out
12        of business.  And that's fine.  That's the level
13        of economic impact analysis that the hearing
14        officer has deemed to be relevant to the
15        hearing.  As soon as you go through the generic
16        analysis and get to the point will Farm A go out
17        or Farm B or Mill A or B, I think he's made it
18        very clear that that's beyond the scope of these
19        proceedings.
20             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.
21             MR. GREEN:  And I think your question --
22             MR. KILLINGER:  Then I'll perhaps ask the
23        question a different way.
24   BY MR. KILLINGER:
25       Q.    Mr. Stein, can you tell me whether, at
                                                 283

 1   $4.83 cost per ton of sugar cane at 35 tons per net
 2   acre, most small to medium-sized sugar growers will
 3   be forced to cease doing business?
 4             MR. GREEN:  Object to the