1

 1           Division of Administrative Hearings
 2      Department of Administration, State of Florida
 3 
      SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE      )
 4    of FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and   )
      WEDGWORTH FARMS, Inc.,              )
 5              Petitioners               )
         V                                )  DOAH Case
 6    SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT      )  No. 92-3038
      DISTRICT, an agency of the State    )
 7    of Florida; et al.,                 )
                Respondents.              )
 8 
      FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.;    )
 9    UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION;    )
      and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC.,           )
10                Petitioners,            )
         V                                )  DOAH Case
11    SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT      )  No. 92-3039
      DISTRICT, an agency of the State    )
12    of Florida; et al.,                 )
                  Respondents.            )
13 
      FLORIDA FRUIT and VEGETABLE         )
14    ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;      )
      W. E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC.,      )
15    and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC.,            )
                    Petitioners,          )
16        V                               )   DOAH Case
      SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT      )   No. 92-3040
17    DISTRICT, an agency of the State    )
      of Florida; et al.,                 )
18                  Respondents.          )
   
19 
                     Deposition of Fritz Stein
20                        VOLUME I
   
21             Taken before Elaine V.  Williams,
     Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for
22   the State of Florida at large, pursuant to notice of
     taking deposition filed by the Department of
23   Environmental Regulation in the above cause.
                             -  -  -
24   Tuesday, March 9, 1993
     331 Gun Club Road
25   West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
     11:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.
                                                 2

 1    APPEARANCES:
 2 
          On behalf of the Petitioners:
 3             Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams P.A.
               123 S. Calhoon St.
 4             Tallahassee, Florida  32314
               By:  WILLIAM GREEN, ESQUIRE
 5 
   
 6        On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD:
               South Florida Water Management District
 7             3301 Gun Club Road
               West Palm Beach, Florida  33416-4680
 8             By:  No appearance
   
 9        On behalf of the Intervenor, United States of America:
              Department of Justice
10            155 South Miami Avenue, Suite 627
              Miami, Florida  33130-1693
11            BY:  KATHY A. STARK, ESQUIRE
   
12        On behalf of the State of Florida:
              Department of Environmental Regulation
13            Twin Towers Office Building
              2600 Blair Stone Road
14            Tallahassee, Florida  32399-2400
              By:  LEE M. KILLINGER, ESQUIRE
15 
          Also Present:  Jeffrey J. Ward
16                       Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative
   
17                         -  -  -
                                                 3

 1                         -  -  -
 2                      I  N  D  E  X
 3                         -  -  -
 4 
 5  WITNESS:            DIRECT  CROSS  REDIRECT  RECROSS
 6  Fritz Stein
 7 
    BY MR. KILLINGER:     4
 8 
   
 9                         -  -  -
10                     E X H I B I T S
11                         -  -  -
12 
13  NUMBER          PAGE NO.         DESCRIPTION
14  EXB. NO. 1       6            Notice, Duces Tecum
    EXB. NO. 2       6            Expert witness Disclosure
15  EXB. NO. 3       9            Witness list
    EXB. NO. 4      10            resume' of F. Stein
16  EXB. NO. 5      15            Old map
    EXB. NO. 6     108            30th Crop celebration program
17  EXB. NO. 7     113            Water management table
    EXB. NO. 8     120            Sugar & Sweetener Yearbook
18  EXB. NO. 9     152            Draft Comments, F. Stein
   
                                                 4

 1                    P R O C E E D I N G S
 2                       -  -  -
 3   Thereupon,
 4              Fritz Stein,
 5   being by the undersigned Notary Public first duly
 6   sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
 7              THE WITNESS:  I do.
 8                      DIRECT (Fritz Stein)
 9  BY MR. KILLINGER:
10       Q.    Mr. Stein, my name is Lee Killinger, and I
11   am here on behalf of the Florida Department of
12   Environmental Regulation to take your deposition in
13   the case which is known generally as the Everglades
14   SWIM Plan litigation.  Are you generally familiar
15   with what is going on in that lawsuit, what the
16   allegations are and who the parties are?
17       A.    I know who, yeah.
18       Q.    Have you ever had your deposition taken
19   before?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    Okay.  So I'll just tell you again for the
22   record that if I ask you a question which is unclear
23   or you don't understand or you think you'll have a
24   hard time answering, please ask me to rephrase it so
25   that I ask it correctly.  I don't want you to try to
                                                 5

 1   answer a question you don't feel is appropriate.  And
 2   we'll just go on.
 3             You say you have been deposed before.  In
 4   connection with what?
 5       A.    An accident a long time ago back in the
 6   early '60's.
 7       Q.    Automobile accident?
 8       A.    Well, it was a bus accident, but --
 9       Q.    Oh, okay.  Is that the only occasion?
10       A.    That comes to mind, yes.
11       Q.    Okay.  That's fine.  Let me hand you what
12   I'll mark as Exhibit 1 -- and counsel, I didn't bring
13   extra copies of this to the deposition, you all can
14   all look at it -- and ask you if you have seen that.
15       A.    I don't believe I have seen this one.  Yes,
16   I have seen this, yeah.  Yes, I have seen this one.
17       Q.    Okay.  I notice you are looking at the
18   attachment with regard to documents to be produced.
19   Did you look at that prior to today?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    Have you in fact produced documents
22   pursuant to that?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    Okay.  We have received a packet of
25   documents from Mr. Ward, I believe.  Did you help him
                                                 6

 1   assemble that packet of documents to send to us?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3             MR. GREEN:  Excuse me.  Mr. Killinger, is
 4        this Exhibit 1, did you say?
 5             MR. KILLINGER:  Yes, it is.  She hasn't got
 6        a sticker on it yet.
 7             (The document was marked
 8             Exb. No. 1.)
 9   BY MR. KILLINGER:
10       Q.    Have you held back any documents that you
11   would have otherwise produced on the basis that those
12   documents are privileged or reflect some
13   attorney/client work product, to your knowledge?
14       A.    No.
15       Q.    Okay.  And do the documents, generally
16   speaking, that you have produced reflect the opinions
17   and statements, your opinions, as stated in them?
18       A.    Yes.
19             (The document was marked
20             Exb. No. 2.)
21   BY MR. KILLINGER:
22       Q.    Okay, thank you.  I guess I will hand you
23   what I'll have marked as Exhibit 2.
24             I'll explain to counsel for the record what
25   that is.  It is the front page and the relevant page
                                                 7

 1   of this to this deposition of the witness designation
 2   for the League and related parties.
 3             I would like to ask you if you have ever
 4   seen that document.
 5       A.    I haven't seen this document before.
 6       Q.    Have not?
 7             MS. STARK:  I'm sorry.  Was that from the
 8        League or the Co-op?
 9             MR. KILLINGER:  That's the League.
10             MS. STARK:  Okay.
11   BY MR. KILLINGER:
12       Q.    Are you aware that the League had put you
13   on their witness list as a witness to testify on
14   their behalf?
15       A.    No.
16       Q.    Have you discussed testifying as a witness
17   with anyone from the Sugar Cane League or any of
18   their related parties?
19       A.    No.
20       Q.    Could I borrow that back from you just for
21   a second?  Okay.  If you could look at the subject
22   matter of expected testimony, it indicates that you
23   are expected to testify on behalf of the League
24   regarding SWIM plan development, water quality in
25   EPA, water supply, other general areas of testimony
                                                 8

 1   may be added as issues in the case develop.  Do you
 2   consider yourself to be knowledgeable about SWIM plan
 3   development?
 4             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 5             You may answer.
 6             THE WITNESS:  I was involved in a SWIM plan
 7        development program when I was on the Board of
 8        the South Florida Water Management District.
 9   BY MR. KILLINGER:
10       Q.    Okay.  Do you consider yourself to be
11   knowledgeable with regard to water quality in the
12   EPA?
13       A.    What about EPA now?  I don't understand
14   EPA.
15       Q.    Okay.
16       A.    Would that be the EAA?
17       Q.    If you heard the designation EPA, referring
18   to the Everglades Protection Area --
19       A.    No.
20       Q.    -- are you familiar with that acronym?
21       A.    No.
22             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.  That's all for that
23        one.  I think you can mark it and we can put
24        that one aside.
                                                 9

 1             (The document was marked
 2             Exb. No. 3.)
 3   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 4       Q.    I'll show what we have marked as Exhibit 3.
 5   For the record, this is the witness designation of
 6   the Co-op, the initial page, and the page on which
 7   you are referenced, Mr. Stein, and I wanted to ask
 8   you if you have ever seen that document before.
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    When did you first review that document?
11       A.    A week or two ago.
12       Q.    Why did you review the document?  Was it
13   presented to you by your attorneys to review?
14       A.    You had this.  Not this one.  This one.
15   You want the subject matter?
16       Q.    Yes.
17       A.    Development of the EAAs.
18       Q.    Yes.  Again, if we can put that down in the
19   center so we can read off the designation, you're
20   designated as having -- "subject matter of expected
21   testimony is agricultural practices and development
22   in the EAA and an overview of the Florida sugar
23   industry".  Do you consider yourself to be
24   knowledgeable about agricultural practices and
25   development in the EAA?
                                                 10

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    And do you consider yourself to be
 3   knowledgeable about an overview of the Florida sugar
 4   industry?
 5       A.    Yes.
 6       Q.    Okay.  Did you help draft this statement
 7   about what the subject matter of your expected
 8   testimony would be?
 9       A.    No.
10       Q.    Okay.
11             (The document was marked
12             Exb. No. 4.)
13   BY MR. KILLINGER:
14       Q.    I would like to show you Exhibit 4 that I
15   have marked and ask you if you recognize that.
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    Can you tell us what it is?
18       A.    It is a resume' is what it is.
19       Q.    Okay.  It doesn't seem to be dated.  Can
20   you tell me when it was prepared originally?
21       A.    Oh, let me think back.  In the spring of --
22   let me do a little counting here.
23       Q.    That's fine.
24       A.    I believe it would have been 1987.  It is
25   prior to me becoming a member of the Governing Board
                                                 11

 1   of the South Florida Water Management District.
 2       Q.    Okay.  That's close enough.
 3       A.    I don't even remember now when I went in.
 4       Q.    That's fine.
 5       A.    Okay.
 6       Q.    Why was it prepared?
 7       A.    That was the purpose.
 8       Q.    That was the purpose?
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    That was the objective?
11       A.    Uh-huh.
12       Q.    It has been -- there are some marks on -- I
13   believe the P.O. Box has been changed and the
14   telephone number has been changed and something on
15   the back page has one change to it.  When were those
16   changes made?  Approximately.  I'm not looking for a
17   date and time.
18       A.    In the last couple years.
19       Q.    Okay.  Okay.  I would like to sort of go
20   down the resume' and have you fill me in on a little
21   bit about your background.
22       A.    Okay.
23       Q.    Just going down the list, I guess we have
24   the first thing, University of Florida; you got a
25   Bachelor of Science of Agricultural in 1954?
                                                 12

 1       A.    Right.
 2       Q.    What was your major?  Was that agriculture?
 3       A.    It was in animal husbandry in those days.
 4       Q.    That's what I wondered.  I didn't know if
 5   that was a different major.  And what courses were
 6   involved, sort of broadly, in that degree?
 7       A.    Soils, fertilizers, crop production,
 8   genetics.  You are going back a long time in my life.
 9       Q.    Okay.  That's fine.
10       A.    And a lot of other courses.
11       Q.    I don't think I could answer that question
12   myself.
13       A.    I could have produced my --
14       Q.    No, I don't need a transcript.
15       A.    Transcript is what I was trying to think.
16   I guess you could ask for that.
17       Q.    Let's talk a little bit about the business
18   experience you have got.  You put down there Fritz
19   Stein Farms, and in parentheses cattle, and then the
20   owner.
21       A.    Uh-huh.
22       Q.    Are you the sole owner of Fritz Stein
23   Farms?
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    Is it a corporation?
                                                 13

 1       A.    No.
 2       Q.    Where does Fritz Stein Farms do business?
 3       A.    Belle Glade, Florida.
 4       Q.    Is all of the land owned by Fritz Stein
 5   Farms in or around Belle Glade?
 6       A.    The land is owned by me individually.
 7       Q.    The land is owned by you.
 8       A.    Uh-huh.  The cattle operation is in
 9   Highlands County.
10       Q.    Highlands County?
11       A.    Uh-huh.
12       Q.    Can you describe for me briefly what the
13   operation is?
14       A.    Cow, calf operation.  We sell the calves
15   for produce.
16       Q.    How many do you have, approximately?
17       A.    I should have more than a thousand.  I
18   don't have an exact count.
19       Q.    How much land do you have out there?
20       A.    There's 3300 acres involved in the
21   Highlands County operation, about 750 acres in the
22   Belle Glade area.
23       Q.    Is the 750 related to cattle?
24       A.    No.  Just maybe 50 acres of it.
25       Q.    Okay.
                                                 14

 1       A.    The majority is sugar production.
 2       Q.    Would that lead us into Stein Sugar Farms,
 3   Incorporated?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    About 700 acres?
 6       A.    750.  Somewhere in that area.
 7       Q.    Also in Belle Glade?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    Were you the founder of Fritz Stein Farms,
10   the cattle operation?
11       A.    I won't say I was the founder of it.  It is
12   a carryover from my dad's operation.
13       Q.    Okay.  Do you know how long it's been in
14   existence?
15       A.    Well, my people came here in 1915.
16       Q.    Did they come here to ranch cattle?
17       A.    To farm.
18       Q.    To farm.  Was the cattle operation part of
19   the original setup that they had when they first
20   moved here, or do you know?
21       A.    Well, from what I have been told they had
22   one cow, just a milk cow, and from that point, it
23   evolved.
24       Q.    All right.  Tell me about the Stein Sugar
25   Farms.  When did that get started?
                                                 15

 1       A.    1967.
 2       Q.    Did you start that?
 3       A.    Yes.
 4       Q.    And that's a corporation?
 5       A.    Yes.
 6       Q.    Is it a publicly held corporation?
 7       A.    No, it is a family corporation.
 8       Q.    And it operates about 750 acres?
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    Can you give me an approximate physical
11   location of where the land is in relation to, for
12   instance, Lake Okeechobee?
13       A.    Most of it borders Lake Okeechobee --
14   Hoover Dike.
15       Q.    I think in the bowels of these documents I
16   have a map.
17             (The document was marked
18             Exb. No. 5.)
19   BY MR. KILLINGER:
20       Q.    I'll mark this map as Exhibit 5.  I'll mark
21   both of them.  It is two maps.  And I'll ask you if
22   you can review these and point out for us where the
23   land is that Stein Farms, Incorporated is on.
24             In fact, if you want to take this yellow
25   highlighter and do your thing on it.
                                                 16

 1       A.    I don't think these are exactly to scale,
 2   but here is the end of this piece.  The end of this
 3   is right here.  This is two right here.
 4       Q.    Okay.  While you are looking at those
 5   documents, one of them -- I'll make it a composite
 6   exhibit, and it will be Number 5, and ask you to
 7   explain to me approximately how many acres are in the
 8   area you have just outlined on the map that has the
 9   exhibit sticker on it.
10       A.    What would you like for me to do?
11       Q.    I just didn't know if you could give me a
12   ballpark about how many acres are on each map.  I
13   don't need specifics, I just wanted to know if you
14   knew how they were divided up.
15       A.    About 250 acres in this one, about 100
16   acres in this one, 108 acres in this one, about 300
17   in this one.
18       Q.    So all but about three hundred acres is on
19   the map with the sticker on it?
20       A.    Uh-huh.
21       Q.    Okay.  That's fine.
22       A.    We are talking approximate.
23       Q.    Right.  That's fine.
24             When you started Stein Sugar Farms,
25   Incorporated in 1967, did you start it with this
                                                 17

 1   amount of land?
 2       A.    Stein Sugar Farms is not the only --
 3             MR. GREEN:  Excuse me.  Let me just ask you
 4        to clarify, to make the record clear, what land
 5        you are talking about.
 6   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 7       Q.    The land that you have described, the
 8   approximately 750 acres of sugar cane that you
 9   presently have in sugar cane operations one way or
10   the other, which is reflected on the outlined maps of
11   Exhibit 5, when you started Stein Sugar Farms,
12   Incorporated in 1967, did you start it by purchasing
13   this amount of land, did you already own the land, or
14   did you start with some smaller amount and increase
15   later on?
16       A.    I owned the land individually.
17       Q.    Okay.  Then what were you doing?
18       A.    I would say probably less than what there
19   is there now.
20       Q.    Okay.  What were you using the lands for
21   before you started Stein Sugar Farms, Incorporated?
22       A.    To grow crops.
23       Q.    To grow crops?  Was it sugar?
24       A.    No.  It could have been corn, sweet corn,
25   green beans, some lettuce.
                                                 18

 1       Q.    Why did you decide to make the switch to
 2   sugar cane?
 3       A.    It is a more stable crop.
 4       Q.    Did you make the changeover all at once or
 5   did you phase it in?
 6       A.    Gradually.
 7       Q.    What would be just about the first year
 8   that you had this entire acreage in production of
 9   sugar cane and not the former row crops?
10       A.    I don't know.  I would just have to go back
11   and review the history.
12       Q.    Do you grow anything besides sugar cane
13   now?
14       A.    No.
15       Q.    I guess we'll go back to the resume'
16   briefly, and let me ask you about the Experience in
17   Responsibility section.  It shows that you were
18   involved in the South Florida Conservancy District,
19   '68 to present.  Now, this resume' was done, I think
20   you said, a couple years ago and updated.  Are you
21   still involved in the South Florida Conservancy
22   District?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    In what capacity?
25       A.    Board member.
                                                 19

 1       Q.    What are your responsibilities and duties
 2   as a board member at the South Florida Conservancy
 3   District?
 4       A.    Well, we set policy is basically what we
 5   do.
 6       Q.    Set policy with regard to what?  Well, let
 7   me back up a little bit.  What does the South Florida
 8   Conservancy District govern; what does it do, what's
 9   its purpose?
10       A.    It is a sub Drainage District is what it
11   is; managing water.
12       Q.    Okay.  And does the board establish,
13   itself, drainage and water management policies?  Are
14   those the policies you are referring to?
15       A.    Yes, we do.
16       Q.    Okay.  What else does the board do?
17       A.    Well, we have a crew of people we have to
18   work with.  We have a general manager.  We direct
19   him.
20       Q.    Okay.  What does he do?
21       A.    He is a day-to-day manager.  He manages the
22   personnel, he manages the pump system.
23       Q.    How many board members are there?
24       A.    Three.
25       Q.    Who are the others?
                                                 20

 1       A.    Frank Pohill and James Chamblee.
 2       Q.    What does Frank Pohill do?
 3       A.    He's Vice-president, U. S. Sugar
 4   Corporation.
 5       Q.    And what does James Chamblee do?
 6       A.    He is a farmer and landowner.
 7       Q.    I believe the resume' indicates that the
 8   acreage covered by the Conservancy District is
 9   approximately 32,540 acres; is that correct?
10       A.    Yes.
11       Q.    Where is that acreage located,
12   approximately?
13       A.    It goes from Hendry County, back to the
14   east; to the Belle Glade area.
15       Q.    What water management functions and
16   responsibilities does the Conservancy District have
17   to set policies about?  Do they regulate farmers, is
18   it some urban runoff; what water policies do they
19   have?
20       A.    We have farm runoff and urban runoff.
21       Q.    So I guess -- explain to me the management
22   policies that you're required to deal with; with
23   regard to the farms, for instance.
24       A.    We provide the drainage for these areas.
25       Q.    Okay.  The drainage from the farm lands?
                                                 21

 1       A.    And urban lands.
 2       Q.    Okay.  Where does the water get drained to?
 3       A.    In the Works of the District, South Florida
 4   Water Management District.
 5       Q.    Okay.  Looking down at the next item, it
 6   says "Palm Beach County Soil and Water Conservation
 7   District, past chairman and supervisor".  What dates
 8   were you involved with Palm Beach County Soil and
 9   Water Conservation District?
10       A.    Way back in the '60's, I think.
11       Q.    What were the responsibilities of the Palm
12   Beach County Soil and Water Conservation District?
13       A.    We provide technical help to farmers in the
14   county.
15       Q.    What sort of technical help?
16       A.    Helping them to lay out systems and to --
17       Q.    Would that be drainage systems?
18       A.    Right.  Drainage and irrigation; both.
19       Q.    All right.
20       A.    They also had responsibility in the urban
21   areas over here on the east coast; beach work, and
22   provided assistance to homeowners and so forth.
23       Q.    Okay.  Flipping over to the next page, it
24   shows that you were involved with the Environmental
25   Land Management Study Commission I from 1971-72.
                                                 22

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    What was that study commission about?
 3       A.    You go way back, don't you?  Environmental
 4   Land Management.
 5       Q.    So it was about pretty much what the title
 6   describes?
 7       A.    Yes, that's exactly right.
 8       Q.    Okay.
 9       A.    In fact, Allan Milledge was chairman.
10       Q.    Did it concern itself with a particular
11   location or area?
12       A.    Statewide.
13       Q.    Did it address water quality issues?
14       A.    No.
15       Q.    Do you remember what its primary focus was?
16       A.    DRIs and things like that.  I think
17   agriculture was exempt.
18       Q.    Okay.  Next, I believe, we have the Palm
19   Beach County Area Planning Board that you were a
20   member of from 1966 to '73.
21       A.    Yes.
22       Q.    Can you tell me what that area planning
23   board does?
24       A.    Well, it was responsible for land use
25   planning in Palm Beach County and transportation
                                                 23

 1   systems, such as that.
 2       Q.    Was that primarily urban?
 3       A.    Urban, yes.
 4       Q.    Next we have the Sugar Cane Growers
 5   Cooperative of Florida.  It says you were founding
 6   director, vice-president, member of the executive
 7   committee.  I guess what I would like to hear is a
 8   little bit of your history with the Co-op.  When was
 9   it founded?
10       A.    1960.
11       Q.    And you were a founding director?
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    Do you know who the other founding
14   directors were?
15       A.    No, I can't recall all of them.  Some of
16   them maybe.
17       Q.    Do you recall how many of them there were?
18       A.    11.
19       Q.    Okay.  I understand.  It says on your
20   resume' that you are the vice-president and member of
21   the executive committee.  Is that still the case --
22       A.    Yes.
23       Q.    -- today?
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    How long have you been a vice-president?
                                                 24

 1       A.    Probably ten years or so.
 2       Q.    How long have you been a member of the
 3   executive committee?
 4       A.    Same length of time.
 5       Q.    Are you on the executive committee by
 6   virtue of being a vice-president?
 7       A.    Not necessarily.
 8       Q.    It says that the Co-op is a 52-member
 9   farmer-owned cooperative engaged in the harvesting,
10   transportation and processing of sugar cane, and it
11   goes on and talks a little bit more about it.  The
12   number's been changed to 52.  Is that number accurate
13   today?
14       A.    I don't think it is today, no.
15       Q.    How many members do you think there are?
16       A.    I don't know exactly, but I would say 54.
17       Q.    Skipping to the next one, the Federal Land
18   Bank of South Florida; do you recall what dates you
19   were associated with the Federal Land Bank?
20       A.    No, I don't know the exact dates that I
21   served there.
22       Q.    Do you know approximate dates?
23       A.    I have been off five or six years now.
24       Q.    What does Federal Land Bank of South
25   Florida do?
                                                 25

 1       A.    Make loans, long-term loans, to farmers.
 2       Q.    The next one down is the Columbia Bank for
 3   Cooperatives.
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    Do you know what dates you were involved
 6   with them?
 7       A.    No.  I was just on the advisory committee
 8   with them, and it's been more than five years ago.
 9       Q.    What did you do when you were sitting on
10   the advisory committee?
11       A.    We didn't do very much.  In fact, we only
12   had a few meetings.
13       Q.    What were you supposed to be advising
14   about?
15       A.    We were more or less the sounding board for
16   the outside, for the borrowers.
17       Q.    The next entry down is the Florida State
18   Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Service.
19       A.    Yes.
20       Q.    Do you recall when your involvement was
21   with that organization?
22       A.    11 years.  And that 11 years ended January
23   the 20th, 1993.
24       Q.    Can you tell me what that service does?
25       A.    Yes.  We administered all the farm programs
                                                 26

 1   in the State of Florida.  All federal farm programs.
 2       Q.    Does that include any programs which affect
 3   the sugar industry?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    What programs?
 6       A.    Well, the loan program, administration.
 7       Q.    Anything else?
 8       A.    Not that I can think of offhand.
 9       Q.    Do you know what the dollar volume of the
10   loan program involving the sugar industry is that is
11   administered by ASCS?
12       A.    It would vary from year to year.  Probably
13   from 100 million to 200 million.  That range.
14       Q.    The next entry is the Florida Sugar Cane
15   League, Inc. It indicates that you are past president
16   and past member of the board.  Can you clear me up on
17   some of the dates on this since one of the "pasts"
18   has been added in there?
19       A.    Yeah.
20       Q.    When did you first get involved with the
21   League?
22       A.    The Cooperative was a member of the League
23   and I don't remember what year we created the League,
24   but --
25       Q.    The Cooperative was in existence before the
                                                 27

 1   League?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    And the Co-op was a member of the League?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    Are you, individually, a member of the
 6   League?
 7       A.    No.
 8       Q.    Is Fritz Stein Farms, Incorporated a member
 9   of the League?
10       A.    No.
11       Q.    Have you or Fritz Stein Farms,
12   Incorporated, either party, been members of the
13   League?
14       A.    No.
15       Q.    So your connection with the League has been
16   through your participation in the Co-op?
17       A.    Right.
18       Q.    Do you recall when you were the president
19   of the League?
20       A.    1984 I think; the best I can remember.
21       Q.    Do you recall how long you were on the
22   board?  Here it says "since 1974", but I'm not sure
23   when that terminated.
24       A.    We terminated our membership in the League --
25   can we go off the record a minute?
                                                 28

 1       Q.    Sure.
 2             (Discussion held off the record.)
 3             THE WITNESS:  Best of my recollection,
 4        sometime in 1991.
 5   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 6       Q.    That's fine.  I'm not trying to catch you
 7   on it.
 8       A.    Okay.
 9             MR. GREEN:  I think the record has some
10        statements concerning that, that we may or may
11        not agree with, but I just wanted to bring that
12        to your attention, Mr. Killinger.  When I say
13        "the record", I mean the pleadings in this case.
14             MR. KILLINGER:  I gather it is from certain
15        prior depositions that had been discussed.
16             MR. GREEN:  Yeah.
17   BY MR. KILLINGER:
18       Q.    This says that the League represents
19   growers and processors of sugar cane in Florida.  How
20   many growers and processors does the League
21   represent?
22       A.    I have no idea.
23       Q.    You have no approximation?
24       A.    No, I have none,
25       Q.    Okay.  Looking down, next, at the Florida
                                                 29

 1   Molasses Exchange, can you give me some approximate
 2   dates you were involved with that?
 3       A.    I'm still a member of that board.
 4       Q.    And it says that it is a cooperative
 5   marketing association that markets the molasses
 6   produced at the sugar mills.  How long has that been
 7   in existence; do you know?
 8       A.    No, I don't.  I don't recall.
 9       Q.    Do you recall when you became a board
10   member?
11       A.    No, I don't.
12       Q.    Do you recall approximately how long ago?
13       A.    More than ten years.
14       Q.    The next entry is the Florida Division of
15   the American Society of Sugar Cane Technologists,
16   past president.  What is that organization or
17   society?
18       A.    It is made up mostly of people who work in
19   the mills and in the agricultural end of the cane
20   operations.
21       Q.    Is it a technical organization?
22       A.    Yes.
23       Q.    What is its reason for existence; do you
24   know?
25       A.    It gives the guys, and especially in
                                                 30

 1   Louisiana and Florida, the opportunity to exchange
 2   information, bill information, and how to make a
 3   boiler run better or to --
 4       Q.    Technical information?
 5       A.    Things like that.  More the operation of
 6   the mills.
 7       Q.    Technical and engineering knowledge;
 8   information?
 9       A.    Yeah.  Having to do with the mills.
10       Q.    Are you an engineer?
11       A.    No.
12       Q.    Have you got any specialized training in
13   any technical fields, like engineering?
14       A.    No.
15       Q.    Have you taken any specialized courses
16   since college?
17       A.    No.
18       Q.    Next is Belle Glade Housing Authority,
19   chairman.  Do you have any approximate dates for your
20   involvement with that?
21       A.    I think since the early '60's.
22       Q.    Are you still involved with it?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    It says here that administers 630 housing
25   units.  That was, I'm sure, correct at the time the
                                                 31

 1   resume' was prepared.  Do you know if that's still
 2   approximately correct?
 3       A.    That's approximately correct.
 4       Q.    Are there any organizations or affiliations
 5   that you have a connection with that aren't listed on
 6   your resume'?
 7             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 8             You may answer.
 9             THE WITNESS:  Not that I can think of.
10   BY MR. KILLINGER:
11       Q.    Earlier you said that you made the switch
12   from vegetable crops to sugar cane because it was a
13   more stable crop.  Can you fill me in on what you
14   mean by that the word "stable"?
15       A.    The produce business, or the growing of
16   perishable crops, is up and down.  There is no
17   stability to it whatsoever.  It is just a supply and
18   demand situation.
19       Q.    You mean price stability?
20       A.    Price stability, weather, everything.
21       Q.    And sugar is more stable?
22       A.    Sugar is more stable, yeah.
23       Q.    Can you tell me why that is?
24       A.    Well, from the weather standpoint, it takes
25   a lot of cold weather to kill it; from the price
                                                 32

 1   standpoint, when we got in the sugar business, it was
 2   administered by the Federal Government under a quota
 3   system, so we knew what we were going to get for a
 4   crop.  It is less labor intensive.
 5       Q.    Is all the land that you have set aside for
 6   sugar, cultivations in sugar, in cultivation all the
 7   time?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    Do you rotate crops and let fields lie
10   fallow?
11       A.    I let them lay fallow, but for a short
12   period of time.
13       Q.    Okay.  In connection with your operation of
14   your sugar cane farm, do you have permits that you
15   are required to get from governmental authorities?
16       A.    Yes, sir.
17       Q.    Who do you have permits with?
18       A.    South Florida Water Management District.
19       Q.    Anybody else?
20       A.    None that I can think of.
21       Q.    Any Drainage District; do you have permits
22   with them?
23       A.    Huh-uh.
24       Q.    Okay.  What sort of permits do you have
25   with the district?  Water related permits?
                                                 33

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    Do you have any non-water related permits
 3   with any agency?
 4       A.    No.
 5             MR. KILLINGER:  Let's go off the record.
 6             (Discussion held off the record.)
 7             (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
 8   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 9       Q.    All right, I guess we are back on the
10   record.  Okay.  Before we took a break, you mentioned
11   the Cooperative's resignation from the League.  Could
12   you tell me the details of that split or resignation
13   or however you want to phrase it; what caused it and
14   how it occurred, and the timing of it?
15             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.  I think
16        you asked about three questions.
17   BY MR. KILLINGER:
18       Q.    I did.  It was asking for a narrative
19   answer.
20             Do you know about the split between the
21   Sugar Cane League and the Co-op?
22       A.    I am familiar with that split, yes.
23       Q.    Okay.  Can you fill me in on the details of
24   how it transpired?  Do you know what caused it, to
25   start with?
                                                 34

 1       A.    Well, what caused it, basically, was that
 2   we found ourselves in a position --
 3       Q.    Let me stop you for a second.  Who is "we"?
 4   I just want to make sure.
 5       A.    Sugar Cane Growers Co-op.
 6       Q.    Okay.  I'm sorry.  Go ahead.
 7       A.    -- that we were outside the decision-making
 8   loop, and we didn't like to be in that position.
 9       Q.    The decision-making loop being at the
10   League?
11       A.    As far as the League is concerned, right.
12       Q.    Approximately when was this?
13       A.    I don't remember any exact dates.  Your
14   question was --
15       Q.    Do you remember the approximate date?  Was
16   it during the Federal litigation?
17             MR. GREEN:  I think the question was asked
18        and answered.
19             MR. KILLINGER:  I was just trying to get
20        him to go back into it.
21             THE WITNESS:  Well, I think the answer I
22        gave before was sometime in 1991.
23   BY MR. KILLINGER:
24       Q.    That's fine.  What decisions were being
25   made that the Co-op disagreed with?
                                                 35

 1             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 2             You may answer.
 3             THE WITNESS:  I don't know of any specific
 4        decisions that caused us to do that.  It was
 5        just the general direction it was going without
 6        our involvement.
 7   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 8       Q.    Okay.  Well, do you recall what direction
 9   it was going at the time?
10       A.    We had some disagreement with
11   representation.  Mainly, we were just outside of the
12   decision-making process.
13       Q.    Who was the representation at that time?
14       A.    Earl.
15       Q.    Peeples, Earl & Blank?
16       A.    I assume that's the name of the company.
17       Q.    Is that Bill Earl?
18       A.    Bill Earl.
19       Q.    Do you recall what problems you had --
20   disagreement -- I'm sorry -- with the representation?
21       A.    No, I don't.
22       Q.    When you say decisions were being made with
23   the Co-op outside the loop, who was making the
24   decisions?
25       A.    The Fanjul interests in U. S. Sugar
                                                 36

 1   Corporation.
 2       Q.    Do you know whether the Fanjuls and
 3   U. S. Sugar comprised particularly a large percentage
 4   of the League in terms of control?
 5       A.    They can control it.
 6       Q.    They can control it?  I am a little bit
 7   curious.  You say there were decisions being made
 8   that you disagreed with or that were going on without
 9   your input, I suppose.  Can you remember anything
10   about the direction or the type of decisions that
11   were being made that you disagreed with about the
12   representation?  Was it a matter of publicity or
13   settlement negotiations or do you recall anything
14   specific about it at all?
15             MR. GREEN:  Let me object to this extent;
16        to the extent that that question seeks to elicit
17        litigation strategy that the League might have
18        been developing, I think it would be
19        inappropriate for Mr. Stein to answer that
20        question based on the attorney/client privilege
21        of those who are not present.  However, for the
22        rest of that, he's welcome to answer, even
23        though I believe it is irrelevant.
24             MR. GREEN:  To the best of his knowledge.
25             MR. KILLINGER:  For the record, are you
                                                 37

 1        instructing him not to answer with regard to --
 2             MR. GREEN:  Depends on the question you
 3        ask.
 4             MR. KILLINGER:  -- with regard to questions
 5        which may impact attorney/client privilege of
 6        the League and its attorneys?
 7             MR. GREEN:  I might.  It depends on the
 8        question you ask.
 9             MR. KILLINGER:  Well, you objected to the
10        most recent question, so I am wondering.
11             MR. GREEN:  Just ask it and I'll respond.
12             MR. KILLINGER:  Can you read it back?
13             (Thereupon, a portion of the record
14              was read by the reporter.)
15             MR. GREEN:  I think that's asking Mr. Stein
16        questions about settlement negotiations and
17        potentially litigation strategy that occurred
18        when the Co-operative was a member of the League
19        and, therefore, I think is protected about it
20        attorney/client privilege and I would instruct
21        him not to answer that; at least to the extent
22        that it relates to litigation strategy.
23             MR. KILLINGER:  Well, without trying to
24        depose you, Mr. Green, are you here representing
25        the League today?
                                                 38

 1             MR. GREEN:  No, sir.
 2             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.  Then I think that if
 3        the League needs or wants to be represented, to
 4        raise objections, the League needs to be here to
 5        do that, and they are not, so I guess I will --
 6        if you are going to instruct him not to answer
 7        the question I can't get him to answer it.
 8        That's fine.
 9             MR. GREEN:  I think if you ask your
10        questions one at a time, very specifically, we
11        may not have a problem.
12             MR. KILLINGER:  Okay.  Well, I will
13        continue, and I will note the objection you have
14        to that, although I think it should be answered.
15   BY MR. KILLINGER:
16       Q.    Mr. Stein, are you familiar, or were you
17   familiar at the time, with the litigation strategy of
18   the League?
19       A.    No.
20       Q.    Okay.
21             MR. GREEN:  That solves that.
22   BY MR. KILLINGER:
23       Q.    Can you give me a specific example of a
24   decision, or a direction, of the League with which
25   the Co-op disagreed?
                                                 39

 1       A.    Specifically?  No, I can't.
 2       Q.    Can you give me a subject matter of
 3   disagreement?
 4       A.    One was public relations.
 5       Q.    Okay.  What was the disagreement about
 6   public relations?
 7       A.    The way the League was going the direction
 8   they were going.
 9       Q.    What direction, what way, was the League
10   going?
11       A.    We had our own in-house public relations
12   people there at the time, and two major companies
13   decided they wanted to go with outside organization.
14   We disagreed with that.
15       Q.    Fair enough.  Can you think of any other
16   disagreements that you had with the League?  And by
17   "you" I mean the Co-op; I don't mean you
18   specifically, necessarily.
19       A.    The way it was being managed and those
20   kinds of things.
21       Q.    What I am trying to find out is a little
22   bit more specifics about the way it was being
23   managed, that would cause a split off.
24       A.    We were not in the decision-making process.
25       Q.    Are you saying that the decisions were made
                                                 40

 1   without your approval?
 2       A.    Exactly.
 3       Q.    And that you eventually disagreed with?
 4       A.    We would have liked to have been consulted.
 5       Q.    Are you saying that you didn't necessarily
 6   agree with them, but the fact that you weren't
 7   consulted was a problem?
 8       A.    Sometimes we may not have agreed with them,
 9   yes.  I don't know of any instances, but --
10       Q.    Did the League amend its charter or its
11   bylaws?
12       A.    I don't know whether they have or not.
13       Q.    Was there a discussion about it?
14       A.    There was discussion.
15       Q.    Do you recall what the discussion was
16   about?  Was it a proposed amendment?
17       A.    No, I don't recall.
18       Q.    Was that one of the areas of disagreement?
19       A.    It could have been an area of disagreement.
20       Q.    Okay.  After the Co-op tendered its
21   resignation from the League, did it retain its own
22   counsel at that point?
23       A.    I don't remember if it was at that point or
24   we had counsel retained prior to that.
25       Q.    Okay.  Do you think it was prior to that?
                                                 41

 1       A.    I just don't remember.  I wouldn't even
 2   guess at it.
 3       Q.    Can you tell me how the League derives its
 4   income from its members?
 5       A.    It is based on a tonnage basis.
 6       Q.    How does that work?
 7       A.    So much a ton of sugar.
 8       Q.    Does the League buy cane from --
 9       A.    No.
10       Q.    -- growers?
11       A.    No.
12       Q.    How does the League get its money?
13       A.    From the processor.
14       Q.    Okay.  Why does the processor pay the
15   League?
16       A.    Because it is the association; it is their
17   association.
18       Q.    I'm not sure I understand it.  Maybe I'll
19   come back to it later on.  I think I would like to
20   just go back on my outline and go back up to the
21   overview of the cane industry in Florida, since
22   that's one of your designated areas.
23             I would like you to sort of take me through
24   the process of how cane is grown from basically a
25   fallow field through the production and harvesting
                                                 42

 1   process of the crop.  Would that be a safe place to
 2   start with; a field that is fallow, as the beginning
 3   of a sugar cane crop?
 4       A.    Okay.
 5       Q.    Okay.  Why would you let a field lie fallow
 6   in the first place?
 7       A.    Well, first of all, I would have to prepare
 8   the land for the next crop.
 9       Q.    Okay.  What does that involve?
10       A.    Well, killing out the old stubble.
11       Q.    How is that done?
12       A.    With a harrow; a disc harrow.
13       Q.    So you just disc it in?
14       A.    We disc it in and then let it lay a couple
15   weeks and then disc it again and just keep it clean;
16   keep the weeds killed off.
17       Q.    How is that done?
18       A.    With the same thing.
19       Q.    With the harrow?
20       A.    Yeah.  Just discing it.
21       Q.    Right.
22       A.    And then about two weeks prior to planting
23   I'll come in and mole drain the land.
24       Q.    Let me slow you down.  For example, how
25   long would a field normally lie fallow before you --
                                                 43

 1       A.    One of my fields?
 2       Q.    Yes.
 3       Q.    -- before you put it back into production
 4   and plant a new crop --
 5       A.    Okay.
 6       Q.    -- after the harvest of the prior crop?
 7       A.    Okay.  This year my cane will be -- the
 8   harvest will be completed probably the first week in
 9   April.  I may wait up to a month to see what kind of
10   stand I might have coming back --
11       Q.    From the old stubble?
12       A.    -- from the old stubble-- before I
13   determine which fields I'll take out.
14       Q.    Okay.
15       A.    I'll determine which fields I'm going to
16   take out at that time, and I won't do anything to
17   them, and that's when I'll start the process I
18   described to you earlier.
19       Q.    Okay.  So you would wait a month or so to
20   see what you would get, and you would take the ones
21   out if you decide they weren't going to be productive
22   the following year?
23       A.    Uh-huh.
24       Q.    Okay.  I'll come back to the stubble, I
25   think, in a minute.  Is that standard practice for
                                                 44

 1   most sugar farmers; to your knowledge?
 2       A.    To my knowledge, yes.
 3       Q.    Letting it lie fallow about that long while
 4   determining?
 5       A.    Yes.
 6       Q.    Does anybody allow their fields to lie
 7   fallow for longer than that?
 8       A.    I don't know.  I'm not familiar with other
 9   operations to that extent.
10       Q.    Do you know whether or not anybody -- I
11   assume -- I am going to ask you this question:  Do
12   you rotate any crops through your fields?
13       A.    No.
14       Q.    You just grow sugar cane?
15       A.    Uh-huh.
16       Q.    Do you know whether any agricultural area
17   farmers do rotate their crops?
18       A.    Some of them do, yes.
19       Q.    Do you know what crops are normally
20   rotated?
21       A.    No.
22       Q.    Okay.  So, assume you have decided the
23   stubble is not going to be productive the following
24   year, the first thing you do is you go out there and
25   disc it in and --
                                                 45

 1       A.    Try to kill out the old stubble, yes.
 2       Q.    -- keep it clear for about a month; is that
 3   what it takes?
 4       A.    To kill it.
 5       Q.    Do you level the field during that time --
 6       A.    If it is needed.
 7       Q.    -- or does the discing do that?
 8       A.    If it is needed.
 9       Q.    How do you level it, if it is needed?
10       A.    Well, there's laser level; there is
11   Sarasota level.
12       Q.    What is that; Sarasota?
13       A.    It is just a name of a level.
14       Q.    Oh, okay.
15       A.    It was developed in Sarasota.
16       Q.    Okay.  How does it work?  I assume a laser
17   works with --
18       A.    You know what a laser is.
19       Q.    Yes, I know what a laser is.
20       A.    This does not work with a laser.
21       Q.    Okay.
22       A.    This is two offset pieces of channel iron,
23   usually with a roller behind them, that leaves it
24   level.
25       Q.    Oh, okay.  I see.  How do you determine
                                                 46

 1   whether it needs to be leveled?
 2       A.    Knowledge.
 3       Q.    You look at it?
 4       A.    I've been farming my whole life.
 5       Q.    Is flooding ever used to determine whether
 6   it needs to be leveled?
 7       A.    No.  Not in my case.
 8       Q.    Not in your case.  While the field is open
 9   and things are disced in, do you do any canal
10   maintenance?
11       A.    Just before we plant, we usually clean the
12   ditches; yeah.
13       Q.    What does that involve?  What does cleaning
14   the ditches involve?
15       A.    Just bringing in a backhoe, or a drag line
16   with a clam shell bucket on it, and just taking the
17   sediment out of the ditches and pitching it out on
18   the land.
19       Q.    What is the sediment that's in the ditches?
20       A.    Dirt.
21       Q.    Is it from the wall of the bank collapsing?
22       A.    Just dirt.  If you get heavy rainfall it
23   will run in there.
24       Q.    Okay.  The ditches out on sugar cane
25   property, are they combined drainage, as well as
                                                 47

 1   irrigation ditches?
 2       A.    The same.  One and the same.
 3       Q.    It is the same system?
 4       A.    One and the same.
 5       Q.    You irrigate by raising the water level in
 6   the ditch, and you drain it by lowering it, and you
 7   drain or raise it by seepage?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    Okay.
10       A.    The mole drain will drain it; that I
11   mentioned earlier.  That's a subterranean tunnel.
12       Q.    Okay.  Is a mole drain -- how does -- what
13   does the device look like?
14       A.    It is a different animal.  My animal is an
15   athey traction; a single bullet.  I'll drop this
16   bullet down in the ditch, and then I pull it through
17   the field --
18       Q.    I see.
19       A.    -- to about 36 to 42 inches below the
20   surface.
21       Q.    Below the surface.  And that leaves
22   essentially a tunnel underneath there?
23       A.    There is a rat trail.  Water comes down and
24   out.
25       Q.    Why do you do it so deep?
                                                 48

 1       A.    If I don't, the equipment running over will
 2   seal it.
 3       Q.    Do mole drains work in all kinds of soil?
 4       A.    If the soils are deep enough.  I have some
 5   soils I can't mole drain.
 6       Q.    Okay.  How deep a soil do you need,
 7   generally?
 8       A.    Probably 42 inches.
 9       Q.    What do you do on the soils that you can't
10   mole drain?  Do you work on something else?
11       A.    I either plow them or chisel them.
12       Q.    What is chiseling?
13       A.    Just that.  Chisel.  Drag a device through
14   there with different, you know, standards on them.
15       Q.    And what does that do?
16       A.    Just breaks up the soil.
17       Q.    Oh, okay.
18       A.    We have a lot of compaction in cane fields.
19       Q.    From the equipment?
20       A.    Uh-huh.  Yes.
21       Q.    Do you ever apply pesticides before you
22   plant?
23       A.    Thimet at planting.
24       Q.    How do you spell that?
25       A.    T-h-i-m-e-t.
                                                 49

 1       Q.    What does that do?
 2       A.    Soil insects.
 3       Q.    Hematoids and things?
 4       A.    Not necessarily hematoids.  You might get a
 5   little bit of control, but not a whole lot.  Most are
 6   wire worms and insects.
 7       Q.    Okay.  Do you apply fertilizer before you
 8   plant?
 9       A.    At planting.
10       Q.    At planting?
11       A.    I band it in firm.
12       Q.    How do you decide whether or not you need
13   to fertilize?  Do you fertilize in every case?
14       A.    Yes, I do.
15       Q.    Do you know whether it's standard practice
16   for growers generally to fertilize at planting, every
17   time?
18       A.    I think it is, yes.
19       Q.    Do you get any soil tests or anything to
20   tell you whether or not you need it, or is that just
21   a matter of experience?
22       A.    Mine is mostly experience.
23       Q.    You said you band it in at planting.  Can
24   you explain what that means?
25       A.    Okay.  I have a furrow plow.  I furrow
                                                 50

 1   three rows at a time.  Over each row I have a
 2   fertilizer hopper.
 3       Q.    Okay.
 4       A.    And as I furrow, I plow the fertilizer in
 5   the furrow.
 6       Q.    Okay.  Do you do that at the same moment;
 7   does the same device plant for you as it goes along?
 8       A.    No.  We hand plant.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Is the normal procedure, as far as
10   you know, in the EAA to apply fertilizer banded?
11       A.    I think it is now.
12       Q.    Is broadcast the other option?
13       A.    Yeah, broadcast is the other option.
14       Q.    Is broadcast essentially where it is just
15   sort of spread evenly over the surface of the land?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    How is that normally done?
18       A.    By truck.
19       Q.    Why do most people band fertilize?
20       A.    I don't know if most of them do.
21       Q.    Okay.  That's fine.  I thought you said you
22   felt like it was probably standard practice now, and
23   I sort of made a lead.  I don't want to
24   mischaracterize.  You think most people do band
25   fertilize; do you have an idea as to why?
                                                 51

 1       A.    I think that is a BMP in today's standards.
 2       Q.    Did you band before the BMP came into
 3   effect as a requirement?
 4       A.    I have always banded.
 5       Q.    Why have you always banded?
 6       A.    I think I get better utilization.
 7       Q.    You use less to get the same effect?
 8       A.    I don't know.  I don't know what others
 9   use.
10       Q.    I mean, in your case, are you assuming that
11   you use less by banding it than if you broadcast it?
12       A.    I think I get better utilization.
13       Q.    I guess I don't know what you mean by that.
14       A.    By fertilizing the plants.
15       Q.    Okay.  All right.  That's fine.  So is
16   there any other preparation you do on a fallow field
17   before you get to the actual planting?
18       A.    Okay.  I did the harrowing.
19       Q.    Right.
20       A.    I have done the mole draining where I
21   could.
22       Q.    Right.
23       A.    I have done leveling where I could.
24       Q.    Right.
25       A.    I go in and chisel even where I mole
                                                 52

 1   drained and I break the soil up.
 2       Q.    Okay.  How deep does that chisel go?
 3       A.    Probably two feet.
 4       Q.    Okay.
 5       A.    I go over the field probably twice, two
 6   different directions.  It gives you a well prepared
 7   seed bed there.
 8       Q.    Okay.
 9       A.    Then you furrow, plow my fertilizer in the
10   furrow, load my seed cane on a wagon, bring it to the
11   field, drop the seed piece in the furrow.  Then I
12   come back with a covering rig, which will cover the
13   cane, and apply the thimet.
14       Q.    Okay.
15       A.    And that's it.  I get out of the field and
16   start cultivating.
17       Q.    You said you plant by hand.  You do that
18   from the back of a truck?
19       A.    Trailer.
20       Q.    Back of a trailer?
21       A.    Wagon; farm wagon.
22       Q.    Somebody puts the seed cane, that you call
23   it, in the ground, and then you come back with a
24   mechanical thing that covers it up?
25       A.    Uh-huh.
                                                 53

 1       Q.    What is seed cane?
 2       A.    It is just cane that you decide what field
 3   you want to take your seed out of, variety.
 4       Q.    Is it actual seed?
 5       A.    No.  In cane it is vegetated.  The stock is
 6   what you plant.
 7       Q.    Okay.  So after you get it all planted and
 8   covered and put the thimet on it, you say you get out
 9   of the field.  What happens to the crop next?
10       A.    We start cultivating, I said.
11       Q.    Okay.  And what does that involve?
12       A.    Well, in my case, I'll probably cultivate
13   mine heavier than most people.  I have some tines
14   that go in the ground probably six inches deep, and
15   that keep my ground loosened up, air down the roots.
16   Sometimes I use herbicides to kill grass.
17       Q.    How do you use the tines in the area that
18   you just planted without digging up what you just
19   planted?
20       A.    Because I plant in rows.
21       Q.    Right.
22       A.    Five foot rows.
23       Q.    You do that between the rows?
24       A.    I straddle the row.
25       Q.    Straddle the row?
                                                 54

 1       A.    So I am cultivating the middle on each side
 2   of that row.
 3       Q.    Right.  Why do you do that?
 4       A.    For weed control and to break that soil
 5   surface up and the soil, to let air get to the root
 6   system.
 7       Q.    Okay.  And you said sometimes you use a
 8   herbicide; is that what you said?
 9       A.    Yes, to kill weeds.  Weeds and grass.
10       Q.    Same?  What herbicide do you use?
11       A.    Evic would be one, Ashulox would be one,
12   Atrazine would be one, 24D would be one.
13       Q.    Okay.  How long does that go on in the life
14   of the crop?
15       A.    Well, usually I'll plant as soon as I can
16   in August.
17       Q.    Okay.
18       A.    And by November I'll be out of the field
19   and I'll have that field laid by, in our terms.
20       Q.    I'm sorry.  Out by when?
21       A.    November.
22       Q.    Why do you get out of the field then?  Is
23   the cane grown up?
24       A.    Laid by the field.  I'm through with it.
25       Q.    Okay.  So you just let it grow at that
                                                 55

 1   point?
 2       A.    Uh-huh.
 3       Q.    Okay.
 4       A.    I back off and watch.
 5       Q.    Okay.  Do you, during that process, apply
 6   any more pesticides --
 7       A.    No.
 8       Q.    -- or fertilizers, or anything else?
 9       A.    No.
10       Q.    Okay.
11       A.    That crop will generally be harvested the
12   following March.  I plant in August of this year, my
13   cane will be harvested in probably March of 1995.  If
14   I plant this coming August, it will be March of 1995
15   when my crop will be harvested.
16       Q.    Okay.
17       A.    My plant crop.
18       Q.    Do the canals run through the field where
19   your cane is?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    Do you need to maintain the canals during
22   the growth period where the field is laid by?
23       A.    I can't get into them.
24       Q.    Okay.
25       A.    I'm not supposed to volunteer stuff to you,
                                                 56

 1   but I am going to volunteer this to you; I do put out
 2   rat poison during that crop.
 3       Q.    I believe you are not the only person who
 4   has been known to do that.  Are rats a serious
 5   problem?
 6       A.    At times.
 7       Q.    What kinds of problems do rats cause in the
 8   field?
 9       A.    They just destroy the cane.  They'll chew
10   the cane stock like a beaver cutting a tree.
11       Q.    Do you put out rat poison as matter of
12   course or do you wait until you see some evidence of
13   damage before you get out there and do it?
14       A.    No.  We put it out usually heavy in the
15   fall.
16       Q.    Is fall rat season?
17       A.    You get a little sweetness in the cane and
18   then they show up.
19       Q.    Yeah.  Okay.  So I guess if you're out of
20   it by November and the harvest is the following March --
21       A.    Two March's.
22       Q.    The following two March's?
23       A.    That is on a plant field.
24       Q.    I'm sorry?
25       A.    That is on a plant field.
                                                 57

 1       Q.    What is that?
 2       A.    Just what we went through.  That's a plant
 3   field.
 4       Q.    Okay.  A plant field.  That means you
 5   planted the crop instead of using last year's?
 6       A.    The first crop is called a plant crop.
 7       Q.    Great.  Thank you.
 8             How do you manage the water in the field
 9   during the life of the cane, from the time you plant
10   it to the time you harvest it?  Do you maintain the
11   water level at about the same place or do you raise
12   it and lower it, generally speaking, at certain phase
13   of the life of the cane?  And this is a multiple,
14   compound question you are going to answer, but can
15   you give me a rundown on how you manage the water
16   levels in your fields from the time the cane is
17   planted?
18             THE WITNESS:  Go ahead?
19             MR. GREEN:  Sure.  If you understand the
20        question.
21             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Right after I plant
22        it, I try to maintain a high water table until I
23        get it established -- get the root germinated
24   and get a root system started.
                                                 58

 1   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 2       Q.    What do you mean by a high water table?
 3       A.    I try to bring it up where I have moisture
 4   around the seed piece.
 5       Q.    So how far below the surface would that be?
 6       A.    Probably 12 inches.  And then as the plant
 7   gets established and gets it's roots, you know,
 8   embedded in the soil real good, then I try to
 9   maintain a constant water table -- that's what I like
10   to do --
11       Q.    Okay.
12       A.    -- 12 to 18 inches at the top of the
13   ground.
14       Q.    Do you know whether that's a standard
15   practice for growers in the EAA; to try to maintain a
16   constant water table?
17       A.    I have no idea.
18       Q.    Okay.  Do you know if there is a general
19   water table at which sugar cane is generally thought
20   to thrive?
21       A.    None that I know of.  I base mine on my
22   experience on my farm.
23       Q.    How do you keep the water table at a
24   constant level?
25       A.    Electric pump with a float switch on it.
                                                 59

 1       Q.    Okay.  In the EAA, is having too much water
 2   generally the problem?  You need to pump water out of
 3   the water table to keep it low, or do you often need
 4   to put water into your fields?
 5       A.    In my case, I have to pump it out.
 6       Q.    Okay.  What would happen to your fields, I
 7   guess, if you didn't pump it at all; would they
 8   flood?
 9       A.    The crop would drown.
10       Q.    Okay.  Would the water table come up over
11   the top of your land --
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    -- or would it be so close it would damage
14   the root system?
15       A.    My farm lies next to Hoover Dike.  I have a
16   tremendous amount of seepage in there.
17       Q.    Do you know whether other farms, generally
18   speaking, in the EAA, need to lower their water table
19   as opposed to rise it in their fields?  They
20   generally have a problem with too much water?
21       A.    Farming is not an exact science, so I can't
22   speak for those guys.  I don't know really what they
23   do.  And most of it is done by what we have
24   experienced.
25       Q.    Okay.
                                                 60

 1       A.    My experience may be different than
 2   somebody else's.
 3       Q.    That's fine.  I just didn't know if there
 4   was a standard that people generally use.
 5       A.    Not that I know of.
 6       Q.    You said you use float switches on electric
 7   pumps.  How do you determine where to set those float
 8   switches?
 9       A.    Well, it's easy.  If I want to keep it 12
10   or 18 inches, I just move a little adjusting collar
11   on a shaft; on a steel shaft.
12       Q.    It is in one of your canals?
13       A.    Yeah, it floats in the canal.  And when
14   water comes up, it turns the pump on, and when it
15   gets down a way, that float will pull that shaft
16   down.  And when it gets there, it will trip the
17   switch off.
18       Q.    Right.  Can you turn the pumps on or off
19   manually?
20       A.    Yes, in storm events.
21       Q.    Okay.  Is that an anticipatory pumping; if
22   you see it is going to rain a lot or the forecast is
23   bad, you drop down, anticipating that?
24       A.    That has been one of my practices in the
25   past.
                                                 61

 1       Q.    I didn't know if the pumps were capable of
 2   keeping up with atmospheric pressure.  That's really
 3   what I am trying to find out.  Do you normally need
 4   to pump ahead of time if you anticipate a storm
 5   event?
 6       A.    Depending on the event.
 7       Q.    Okay.  I believe you said you grew
 8   vegetables before sugar cane.  How did you manage the
 9   water table when were you growing vegetables?
10       A.    It's been so long ago -- 20 years ago now --
11   since I was in it.  It's probably the same basis.
12   Just you know plants that can tolerate more water
13   than others and you just keep moisture that you know
14   is enough in the soil to produce a crop.
15       Q.    Just based on experience?
16       A.    Based on experience.
17       Q.    Different crops require different water
18   tables; essentially?
19       A.    Uh-huh.
20       Q.    Do you have the same water table management
21   on your cattle land?
22       A.    The cattle land; I just depend on the good
23   Lord to irrigate me there.
24       Q.    But you don't need to pump water away from
25   the land?
                                                 62

 1       A.    No, not away from it; no.
 2       Q.    Okay.  Is the water depth that a farmer
 3   would maintain in his field, generally, is it
 4   affected by the type of soil or the depth of the soil
 5   that he has got on his farm?
 6       A.    I don't know whether it would be so much to
 7   the depth.  Type -- it could be a little bit
 8   different.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Can you elaborate on that a little
10   bit for me?
11       A.    Not really.  Just we have different soil
12   types, and even within the organic soil we have
13   different soil types and sand, which we don't have in
14   our part of the EAA, although I do have some marl
15   land, and it has a tendency to be a little bit dry.
16       Q.    It drains better?
17       A.    No, I don't think it drains any better
18   because it is basically the silt that ran off the
19   dike when they were building the dike.
20       Q.    Okay.
21       A.    It overflowed organic soils, and it is
22   very, very fine.  And if we get an inch of rain
23   there, it will stop us harvesting.  We are on muck
24   lands, where it would go on through it.  You could
25   probably keep going; but in my case, it gets real
                                                 63

 1   slick.
 2       Q.    Do you ever change the location of your
 3   drainage and irrigation canals?
 4       A.    No.
 5       Q.    How did you determine how to space them and
 6   how they are laid out on your property?
 7       A.    Well, that's the way it was.
 8       Q.    Okay.
 9       A.    My dad laid them out in some cases and the
10   other people laid them out in other cases.
11       Q.    All right.  Do you use sight gauges in your
12   property, on your land, to determine the water level?
13       A.    Sight gauges for water, no.
14       Q.    Do you know of farmers who do?
15       A.    I have heard the Soil Conservation Service
16   put some sight gauges out.  I don't know who might
17   have them.
18       Q.    Can you explain to me what a sight gauge
19   is?
20       A.    What I understand is it's just a piece of
21   PVC pipe with a floating stick in it that's colored
22   red or green or something like that.
23       Q.    So when they say sight gauge, that means
24   s-i-g-h-t; you look at it and tell?
25       A.    Uh-huh.
                                                 64

 1       Q.    Where does most of the water that you
 2   usually pump away from your crops come from?
 3       A.    Rainfall and seepage.
 4       Q.    Rainfall and seepage.  Would that be
 5   seepage under the dike from Lake Okeechobee?
 6       A.    Yes, or from the canals, and District
 7   canals.
 8       Q.    And where does the water go when you pump
 9   it away?
10       A.    Into the Works of the District.
11       Q.    Do you know where it goes once it gets into
12   Works of the District?
13       A.    Depends on where they pump it.
14       Q.    Does it generally go north or south?
15       A.    Depends on where they want to pump it.  If
16   they want to backpump into the lake, it will go west
17   and north, from my property; if they pump it to the
18   south, it will head out to Hillsboro Canal, which
19   runs east, then turns south, and then North New River
20   would go directly south.
21       Q.    Do you know whether the District often
22   pumps north or south?
23       A.    Only in certain events will they pump into
24   the lake.
25       Q.    Do you know what those events are?
                                                 65

 1       A.    I guess when their criteria dictate they
 2   pump.
 3       Q.    Do you know what those criteria are?
 4       A.    No, I don't.
 5       Q.    Has the water always gone the same
 6   direction from your property?  Did it formerly go
 7   primarily north into the lake?
 8       A.    At one time I'd say it went toward the
 9   lake, yeah.
10       Q.    Do you know about when that stopped?
11       A.    When they stopped backpumping as a general
12   practice.
13       Q.    Do you know when that happened?
14       A.    No.
15       Q.    Was it in connection with the IAP?
16       A.    The IAP is exactly when it was.  Whenever
17   that was.
18       Q.    Okay.  Can you explain to me how the IAP
19   developed?  Do you know when it was put in?
20       A.    I don't know when it was put in.
21       Q.    Do you know the reasons for its
22   development?
23       A.    Other than to divert water away from the
24   lake.
25       Q.    Do you know why they wanted to divert water
                                                 66

 1   away from the lake?
 2       A.    Only reason I know, they said we were
 3   putting too much phosphorus in the lake when they
 4   backpumped.
 5       Q.    Who is "they"?
 6       A.    "They" in that case -- I don't know.  I
 7   don't think the Water Management District.  I think
 8   it was other than the Water Management District.
 9       Q.    Do you know if it was the Department of
10   Environmental Regulation?  Do you think it was
11   environmental groups, the United States?
12       A.    Combination of all those.  United States
13   probably wasn't into it, but all of the others.
14       Q.    So you think it was -- you would feel
15   comfortable with the year of 1978 for the IAP,
16   approximately?
17             MR. GREEN:  Objection.  He's already
18        testified he didn't recall when it was.
19             MR. KILLINGER:  I am trying to refresh his
20        recollection.
21   BY MR. KILLINGER:
22       Q.    Would that help you?
23       A.    No, that wouldn't help me at all.  The
24   public records should show when it was.
25       Q.    I am just trying to let you --
                                                 67

 1       A.    Is that when it was?
 2       Q.    That's my understanding.  I just wanted to
 3   let you tie it into other events should it come up.
 4   I just didn't want to assure you of a particular date
 5   and have that be incorrect in your recollection.
 6             Do you think it was implemented to reduce
 7   phosphorus inflow into the lake; is that correct?
 8       A.    That was my understanding.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Do you know what the contributing
10   factors to the phosphorus in the water that
11   eventually wound up in the lake are considered to be?
12   Did they claim it came from the agricultural runoff?
13       A.    Well, it had to.  They had to say it came
14   from runoff.  Now, I don't know whether it was just
15   agriculture runoff, urban runoff, or all runoff.  It
16   should have been all runoff.
17       Q.    Okay.  Do you know whether -- did you have
18   any feeling about the IAP at the time, whether it was
19   a good idea or a bad idea?
20       A.    I thought it was a bad idea.
21       Q.    Why is that?
22       A.    Water supply.
23       Q.    Okay.  What effect do you think it had on
24   the water supply or what did you think?
25       A.    It reduced the water supply to all of South
                                                 68

 1   Florida.
 2       Q.    How did it do that?
 3       A.    By pumping the water out to tide.
 4       Q.    So it put water in the canals that
 5   eventually went out into the ocean?
 6       A.    Tide water.
 7       Q.    As opposed to being retained in Lake
 8   Okeechobee?
 9       A.    That's right.
10       Q.    Did the level of Lake Okeechobee drop as a
11   result?
12       A.    I wouldn't say it exactly dropped.  It had
13   an effect on the level of Lake Okeechobee.
14       Q.    Do you know what effect?
15       A.    Rainfall affects Lake Okeechobee.  The
16   pumping has very little effect on Lake Okeechobee.
17       Q.    Okay.
18       A.    Rainfall and inflows.  I should put it that
19   way.
20       Q.    Well, what effect do you think it had on
21   the level of Lake Okeechobee?  Just whatever?
22       A.    It had to be a negative effect.
23       Q.    Because the water simply wasn't going where
24   it was going before?
25       A.    Wasn't going where it should be stored.
                                                 69

 1       Q.    Okay.  At the time, do you recall agreeing
 2   or disagreeing with the perceived problem that was
 3   used as a justification for pumping the water south?
 4       A.    Did I agree with the perceived problem?
 5       Q.    Yes.  Did you agree at the time there was a
 6   problem with Okeechobee and that therefore something
 7   needed to be done?
 8       A.    No, there wasn't a problem with Lake
 9   Okeechobee.
10       Q.    Do you know what the problem was asserted
11   as being?
12       A.    Algae blooms.
13       Q.    Well, what was the perceived problem with
14   Okeechobee that justified the IAP?
15             MR. GREEN:  Well, I guess I'll object to
16        the form.  When you say "justified", are you
17        asking this witness whether he believes it was
18        justified or --
19             MR. KILLINGER:  I'll rephrase it if you
20        need it rephrased.
21             MR. GREEN:  Please do.
22   BY MR. KILLINGER:
23       Q.    Okay.  What was the perceived problem with
24   Lake Okeechobee which was used as the reason for
25   implementing the IAP?
                                                 70

 1       A.    The perceived problem was nutrients going
 2   into the lake.
 3       Q.    And what problem would the nutrients cause?
 4   I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to interrupt.
 5             MR. GREEN:  I know you are trying to move
 6        this along.
 7   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 8       Q.    I'll let you finish.  I'm sorry.
 9       A.    But the nutrients going into lake was a
10   perceived problem.  The other perceived problem was
11   that these nutrients were causing algae blooms in the
12   lake and the other perceived problem was that Lake
13   Okeechobee was going to go belly up in the next year
14   or two.  Those were all perceived problems.
15       Q.    Okay.  Do you know who was making the
16   predictions?
17       A.    Most of them that I knew anything about was
18   coming from environmental organizations.
19       Q.    Okay.  Do you recall which ones?
20       A.    FADE is one of them.
21       Q.    Okay.
22       A.    Wayne Nelson's group.  I think Audubon was
23   making some of them.  The fellow who -- I can't
24   recall -- that lived on the north end of the lake,
25   Scott Driver was his name -- dead and gone now -- was
                                                 71

 1   another one.
 2       Q.    Did the sugar industry have any scientists
 3   review the situation with the lake and analyze
 4   whether the science was correct?
 5             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 6             Go ahead.
 7             THE WITNESS:  Go ahead and answer?
 8             MR. GREEN:  Yes.
 9             THE WITNESS:  The League did do a lot of
10        studies, and one of them was a study of the
11        lake.
12   BY MR. KILLINGER:
13       Q.    Do you know who the League had do the
14   study?
15       A.    Earl Shannon, I believe.
16       Q.    Earl Shannon.  Did Dr. Shannon conclude
17   that phosphorus was a problem for Lake Okeechobee?
18       A.    It was controlling nutrients.
19       Q.    It was?  Phosphorus is controlling
20   nutrients?
21       A.    I think that's what his findings will show.
22       Q.    By controlling nutrients, do you mean --
23   have you ever heard the term "limiting nutrients"?
24       A.    I have heard the term but controlling,
25   limiting, it might be the same thing.
                                                 72

 1       Q.    Why don't you explain what you think of --
 2       A.    By controlling nutrients, my perception or
 3   my idea, in my eyes, is the way we can control this
 4   element.
 5       Q.    I see.  So it is a nutrient that's subject
 6   to being controlled.  Okay.  How could it be
 7   controlled?
 8       A.    Well, the way you apply it to the land,
 9   diverting water other places.
10       Q.    So the way you apply it to the land, Fritz,
11   would that be through some sort of a best management
12   practice; like banding fertilizer?
13       A.    Sure.  Banding versus --
14       Q.    Versus broadcast?
15       A.    Versus broadcast.
16       Q.    How would diversion control it?
17       A.    You would shift the problem.
18       Q.    Okay.
19       A.    You don't do away with it, you just shift
20   it.
21       Q.    Okay.  Well, they diverted the water.  The
22   water is now being diverted south rather than north,
23   and not into Lake Okeechobee.  Do you know whether
24   any treatment of that water is being performed now
25   that was not being performed back then?
                                                 73

 1             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 2             You may answer.
 3             THE WITNESS:  Not to my knowledge.
 4   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 5       Q.    Okay.  Does the water that formerly flowed
 6   north into Okeechobee and now which flows south, does
 7   all or part of that wind up in the water conservation
 8   areas and eventually Everglades National Park?
 9             MR. GREEN:  Object to form.
10             Go ahead.
11             THE WITNESS:  The water does.
12   BY MR. KILLINGER:
13       Q.    Okay.  So when you said that if you divert
14   the water, you shift the problem elsewhere, do you
15   think it is a possibility that the water is causing a
16   problem in the area to where it is being diverted
17   now?
18             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
19             You may answer when I do that.  That's a
20        legalism.
21             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  The question again?
22             (Thereupon, a portion of the record
23              was read by the reporter.)
24             THE WITNESS:  No.
                                                 74

 1   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 2       Q.    Okay.  Then how can I reconcile what you
 3   said a moment ago -- about shifting the water and
 4   diverting it doesn't solve the problem, it just moves
 5   it someplace else -- with what you just told me?
 6       A.    I never said there was a problem to start
 7   with.
 8       Q.    Okay.  Why do you think that diversion of
 9   the water can shift the problem someplace else?
10       A.    It can carry.  If you have a problem, it
11   can move it to a different area.
12       Q.    Okay.  Is it your opinion that the water
13   which is being diverted to the south is not causing
14   any problems?
15       A.    There has been no scientific evidence to
16   show it has.
17       Q.    Okay.  There we go.  When we use the
18   phrase, or the word "problem" that might be caused by
19   water, how would you define the word "problem"?  Can
20   you define for me what you would consider to be a
21   problem?
22       A.    I don't understand your question.
23       Q.    Okay.  If waters flowing into the water
24   conservation areas, for instance, was causing a shift
25   in the species from their native species to other
                                                 75

 1   species, causing a change to the ecosystem, would you
 2   consider that to be a problem?
 3             MR. GREEN:  Object to form.
 4             THE WITNESS:  No.
 5   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 6       Q.    Okay.  Why not?
 7       A.    Again, there is no scientific proof to show
 8   this has happened.  See, my opinions are the change
 9   is probably due more to hydroperiod than it is to
10   nutrients.
11       Q.    Okay.  Do you think any changes are
12   occurring to the south, where the agricultural water
13   is being received?
14             MR. GREEN:  Object to form.
15             THE WITNESS:  There is no doubt there is
16        changes to the south.
17   BY MR. KILLINGER:
18       Q.    Okay.
19       A.    But I do not think that they have anything
20   to do with nutrients.
21       Q.    Okay.  That's fine.  Can you tell me what
22   changes you're aware of that are occurring to the
23   south?
24             MR. GREEN:  Changes to what?  That's why I
25        am objecting.  I mean, if you could be more
                                                 76

 1        specific -- that's why I am objecting to form.
 2        I am really not trying to be disruptive.
 3             MR. KILLINGER:  I recognize that.
 4             MR. GREEN:  You're welcome to answer, if
 5        you wish.
 6   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 7       Q.    You said there is no doubt that changes are
 8   occurring to the south.
 9       A.    Change is going to happen every day.
10   Nothing you or I can do about changes.  They are
11   going to happen.  Every day there's changes in
12   everything.
13       Q.    I can appreciate that.  Can you tell me
14   what sort of changes you are aware of that are
15   occurring down south?
16       A.    South is a long ways.
17       Q.    Okay.  Well --
18       A.    Conservation Area 1, Area 2, Area 3?
19       Q.    You used the phrase "down south".  Why
20   don't we just go through it.  What do you know that's
21   changed in Water Conservation Area 1?
22       A.    The only thing I know that's changed in
23   Conservation Area 1 is places where man has disturbed
24   the soil and there has been a growth of cattails in
25   those areas along the western boundary.
                                                 77

 1       Q.    Okay.  Now, you say, "in places where man
 2   has disturbed the soil".  Is that the same thing as
 3   saying hydroperiod is the problem?
 4       A.    It could be related to it.
 5       Q.    Okay.  What do you mean by "man has
 6   disturbed the soil"?  How has man disturbed the soil
 7   along the eastern edge of Area 1?
 8       A.    Okay.  I think history will show that the
 9   dike on the eastern area, western dike on
10   Conservation Area 1, was dredged with a hydraulic
11   dredging.
12       Q.    Meaning?  Can you explain what a hydraulic
13   dredge is?
14       A.    One of those that has a boom that goes down
15   with an auger on it.  First thing, they went in there
16   on that sawgrass and they ran down what we refer to
17   as a right-of-way, okay, where they are going to
18   build that levee, where they were going to take the
19   spoils from, and had an area to the east of that that
20   they ran down also.  And I think it is evident out
21   there, if you go and look, where there was a little
22   toe levee out in the Conservation Area 1.
23       Q.    A toe levee?
24       A.    Yeah.  T-o-e.  I guess that's close enough.
25       Q.    Do you know about when this occurred?
                                                 78

 1       A.    When the project was in construction.
 2   Probably in the 50's.
 3       Q.    Okay.
 4       A.    But anyway, that dredge operates with
 5   anchors and cables.  In other words, you take an
 6   anchor out here, and the cable runs back to that
 7   dredge, and that allows that dredge to pull it like
 8   this, as it is pumping, building the levee.  When men
 9   went in, they ran that down with a chopper; that
10   entire right-of-way.
11       Q.    Okay.
12       A.    Choppers are drums with blades on it.  They
13   disturbed it at that point.  And when those cables
14   were in there, when they were anchoring it and
15   pulling it back in, they were doing a lot of damage
16   to the soil.
17       Q.    So it is your assertion that when,
18   essentially, WCA1 was constructed, when the levee
19   around the western side of it was constructed, that
20   the soil disturbance at that time is what has led to
21   the present changes with the invasion of cattails in
22   the area?
23       A.    With the invasion of cattails, yes.
24       Q.    Yes.  Okay.  Is hydroperiod also a factor?
25       A.    Yes.
                                                 79

 1       Q.    Does that enter into --
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    How does that affect the stability of the
 4   cattails in Conservation Area 1?
 5       A.    Cattail is an opportunistic plant.  When
 6   everything gets right, the seed will be there, and it
 7   will germinate.  A cattail is a, you know, a very
 8   light seed, and when it lets the seed loose, the wind
 9   determines where it is going to take it, and it is
10   going to either fall in water or it is going to fall
11   in -- it's going to fall in something.  And if it
12   finds a place it likes, it will germinate and expand
13   from that.
14       Q.    Do you know what kind of conditions
15   cattails like?
16       A.    I really don't.  You know, I find them in a
17   lot of places.  I found them on sand that had no
18   phosphorus, no nitrogen, no nothing, and here he is
19   growing.  I think he found enough moisture there and
20   he liked it.
21       Q.    Do you know whether cattails usually
22   propagate by seed or whether they are rhizomatic?
23       A.    I really don't know much about that part of
24   the cattail.  The cattail, in looking at it, I think
25   it probably could shoot up blossoms as well as from
                                                 80

 1   seed, but then I'm not positive.  I'm not a cattail
 2   grower.
 3       Q.    Do you know how hydroperiod is different in
 4   WCA1 now from what the hydroperiod was back when the
 5   project was constructed and between and since that
 6   date?
 7       A.    It is higher now.  I'd say it is maintained
 8   at a higher level now.
 9       Q.    Higher now than when they constructed it?
10       A.    Uh-huh.
11       Q.    Has it been consistently that way since
12   they constructed it, to your knowledge?
13       A.    I think only in periods of time when they
14   didn't have water drought.
15       Q.    During periods of extreme drought?
16       A.    Uh-huh.
17       Q.    Why would that be?
18       A.    Vary.
19       Q.    Why would it dry up?
20       A.    If there is no water.
21       Q.    Okay.  What are the sources of water that
22   go into WCA1, as far you know?
23       A.    A few pump station situations, S5, S1, and
24   then there is, I think, some on the -- well, at one
25   time there was some on the west side, but I think
                                                 81

 1   those have been taken out, and some on the east side.
 2   I don't know how many inflows are on the east side.
 3       Q.    I am assuming you're including rain.
 4       A.    Rain is one.  Yeah, rain is one.  But then
 5   the pumps also contribute.
 6       Q.    Can you think of any other man-induced
 7   changes to WCA1 which might be causing the changes
 8   you discussed?
 9       A.    Man induced digging that canal, and seems
10   like the water from S-5A has a tendency to flow in
11   the canals rather than across the conservation area.
12   It would have been better to have designed it where
13   it was sheet flow across there rather than channel
14   flow.
15       Q.    What do you think the dredging of that
16   canal and the way it was done -- how do you think
17   that disturbance to the soil -- made it more suitable
18   for cattails?
19       A.    Knocked the sawgrass down.
20       Q.    And the fact of just knocking the sawgrass
21   down allowed the cattails to colonize?
22       A.    Yes.
23       Q.    So are you saying the cattails have been in
24   their present location essentially since shortly
25   after the levee was built around the west side of
                                                 82

 1   Water Conservation Area 1?
 2       A.    No, I think there were cattails when they
 3   built it.  Cattails have been part of this whole
 4   Everglades.
 5       Q.    I recognize that.  But have they been at
 6   the locations where they are now in the density and
 7   concentrations?
 8       A.    No, they are more dense now than they were.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Do you know if that's a recent
10   occurrence?
11       A.    I don't think it is a recent occurrence.
12   It's been over time.
13       Q.    Do you think they have just been growing
14   since the thing?
15       A.    Growing and expanding since they put the
16   project in place.
17       Q.    Since they put the levee around WCA1, do
18   you know whether the level of nutrients in the water
19   that's being run, for instance, through the S5 pump
20   station have increased?
21       A.    No, I don't know.
22       Q.    Okay.  Are you aware of any changes in
23   Water Conservation Area 2 -- or 2A I guess we could
24   start with?
25       A.    There used to be a lot of tree islands in
                                                 83

 1   there, and I think they flooded those out and killed
 2   them; "they" being the District; Water Management
 3   District.  Then they took it extremely low and I
 4   think this is where you got your cattails.
 5       Q.    So, originally it was flooded out deeper
 6   than it was used to and then it got dryer?
 7       A.    It was deeper than normal, yeah.
 8       Q.    Do you know about what time period that
 9   occurred in?
10       A.    No, I don't.  No, I don't.  Since the
11   '50's.
12       Q.    Okay.  What do you think the ultimate
13   result of that has been?
14       A.    The result of lowering and raising the
15   water and lowering it?
16       Q.    Yes.
17       A.    I think you have a whole lot of change in
18   the growth in that area.
19       Q.    Okay.  Did that result in the establishment
20   of a cattail community there?
21       A.    I'd say the hydroperiod did, on the ends.
22   Cattails are always on the high end of the
23   conservation area.
24       Q.    What do you mean by high end?
25       A.    The elevation is higher -- the soil is
                                                 84

 1   higher on the north end than it is the south end.
 2       Q.    So the water would be shallower?
 3       A.    There would be either no water on it or it
 4   would be very shallow.  It would give a cattail a
 5   good place to take hold and grow.
 6       Q.    Cattails don't like deeper water?
 7       A.    It depends.  If they are caught out there,
 8   as long as they keep their head above water, they'll
 9   like it.  If he could get his head above the water,
10   he will stay there, just like a rice plant will.
11       Q.    Do you know of any disturbances to the soil
12   in 2A that are analogous to the disturbances that you
13   were discussing in 1?
14       A.    Yes.  On any of the canals, any of the
15   canals and levees, that same would apply.  They ran
16   down those right-of-ways and got them prepared to put
17   the levees in place.  Same is true in 3.
18       Q.    Okay.
19       A.    Miami Canal, which is disturbance, you'll
20   find them on the spoils, spoil banks and things like
21   that.  You'll find them in trails; half track trails.
22   In the Holey Land you'll find them where the soil has
23   been disturbed.
24       Q.    Do you know of any specific locations in
25   the Holey Land where the soils have been disturbed
                                                 85

 1   where you can find them?
 2       A.    Most of those craters.
 3       Q.    What do you mean by "craters"?
 4       A.    Used to be a bombing range out there.
 5       Q.    Just wanted to make sure it was clear.
 6             (Discussion held off the record.)
 7             (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
 8   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 9       Q.    Before we took a break, you said that the
10   same conditions that were leading to problems in
11   Water Conservation Area 2 were the same in 3.  By
12   that statement do you mean that the water levels in
13   three are deeper now than they were historically or
14   prior to the creation of the WCAs?
15       A.    No, I think what I alluded to there was the
16   disturbance by man --
17       Q.    Okay.
18       A.    -- and cattails, and I think we were
19   talking about the bomb craters in the Holey Land
20   having cattails around.
21       Q.    Okay.  To your knowledge, has any research
22   been done in or around the areas you are referring
23   to, like the bomb craters in the Holey Land and
24   cattails that are there?
25       A.    Not to my knowledge, no.  I just observed
                                                 86

 1   it.  My observations.
 2       Q.    Are you aware of any changes that are
 3   occurring in Everglades National Park?
 4             MR. GREEN:  Object to the form.
 5             THE WITNESS:  No.
 6   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 7       Q.    We have been discussing the disturbance by
 8   man, and alteration of the hydroperiod has, in your
 9   opinion, I think, led to intrusion of cattails in
10   WCA1, 2 and 3.  Do you think that the level of
11   phosphorus in the water which is flowing into those
12   areas has any effect on that change?
13       A.    I don't think it would have any effect, no.
14   I think because the disturbance is when you have the
15   cattails there.  I don't think nutrients had anything
16   to do with it.
17       Q.    Okay.  You think the nutrients just simply
18   were not a factor in whether or not the cattails got
19   established or grew faster than they normally would
20   have?
21       A.    That's right.
22       Q.    Are you aware of any research results or
23   data or ongoing research which supports the
24   conclusion that nutrients play no role in the changes
25   being observed in the water conservation areas?
                                                 87

 1       A.    No, I don't.
 2       Q.    Are you aware of any research being
 3   performed in the water conservation areas or the Park
 4   by anyone right now?
 5       A.    Dr. Richardson, I think, is doing some
 6   research in Conservation Area 2.
 7       Q.    Do you know what research Dr. Richardson is
 8   doing?
 9       A.    No, I don't.
10       Q.    When you say you don't know what research
11   he's doing, do you mean you don't know the specifics
12   of it or do you know the general areas of research he
13   is working on?
14       A.    I know he's out there working, and I have
15   seen periodic reports to the Environmental Protection
16   District.
17       Q.    Okay.  Do you recall when you have seen
18   reports to the EPD?
19       A.    I attended their last meeting, and he was
20   supposed to have been there and they were supposed to
21   have a report, but he wasn't there and neither was
22   the report.
23       Q.    When was that?
24       A.    The last Friday of the month.  A week ago
25   last Friday.
                                                 88

 1       Q.    Do you recall reviewing or hearing about
 2   the results of any EPD reports prior to that date
 3   from Dr. Richardson?
 4       A.    Any final product?
 5       Q.    No.  Any interim reports, any reports to
 6   the EPD?
 7       A.    I have heard of them, yeah.
 8       Q.    Do you recall what the results were?
 9       A.    No.
10       Q.    Do you know, generally, what
11   Dr. Richardson's research is designed to investigate?
12       A.    I assume it is cause and effect.
13       Q.    Why do you assume it is cause and effect?
14       A.    I visited the site before, and that's the
15   way I interpreted what he was trying to do, which I
16   don't understand all this scientific lingo, but --
17       Q.    Well, do you know whether his cause and
18   effect research involves different factors, such as
19   hydroperiod and phosphorus or, whether it is focused
20   on a single factor?
21       A.    I would assume it is going to include
22   hydroperiod.
23       Q.    Do you assume it includes phosphorus levels
24   at different concentrations?
25       A.    Yeah, I would assume that.
                                                 89

 1       Q.    Do you know who is funding his research?
 2       A.    The EPD.
 3       Q.    Do you know where the EPD derives its
 4   money?
 5       A.    Tax.
 6       Q.    What is the EPD?
 7       A.    Everglades Agricultural Area Environmental
 8   Protection District.
 9       Q.    Who are its members?
10       A.    Board members or taxpayers?  The taxpayers
11   of the EAA.
12       Q.    Who are its board members?
13       A.    Arthur Kerstein, David Beardsley, Wayne
14   Brownie, John Schlechter, and Robert Buker.
15       Q.    And the EPD is funding research with
16   Dr. Richardson?
17       A.    Yes.
18       Q.    Do you know how long they have been funding
19   research with Dr. Richardson?
20       A.    No, I don't.
21       Q.    Do you know if anyone else is funding
22   Dr. Richardson?
23       A.    Not that I know of.
24       Q.    Do you know how long Dr. Richardson's study
25   regime will be?  Do you know how long he's intending
                                                 90

 1   to study?
 2       A.    I had heard originally it was five years.
 3       Q.    But I think you told me you weren't sure
 4   when it started.
 5       A.    I'm not sure when it started.
 6       Q.    Have you heard or do you think he's close
 7   to the end of his study period or do you have any
 8   idea?
 9       A.    I don't have any idea.
10       Q.    Do you know whether Dr. Richardson is
11   studying any potential solutions to the changes or
12   the problems that are perceived by some to exist in
13   the Everglades?
14       A.    I don't know.
15       Q.    Do you know whether Dr. Richardson is
16   studying mercury in the Everglades?
17       A.    No, I don't know.
18       Q.    Do you know whether he's ever made any
19   proposals to do so?
20       A.    I had heard that he made proposals.
21       Q.    Who did you hear that from?
22       A.    I think in the Palm Beach Post.
23       Q.    Do you know who he made the proposals to?
24       A.    Was it EPD?  DPA, I mean.
25       Q.    I'm asking you what you heard.
                                                 91

 1       A.    I'm not even sure what I read.
 2       Q.    Okay.
 3       A.    I don't know whether it was EPD.  He had
 4   made a proposal to or somebody anyway.
 5       Q.    Let's go way back to the sugar industry, if
 6   we can.  I believe we have gotten all the way to the
 7   point where you left the fields alone and you were
 8   going to wait to harvest the cane.  What happened
 9   before the harvest?  How do you prepare the field for
10   harvest?  Do you do anything to it?
11       A.    Only thing I do to it usually is put
12   Dessican to kill the foliage.
13       Q.    Okay.  And when do you apply that?
14       A.    Just a short period of time before harvest;
15   a couple weeks.
16       Q.    And what does that do?
17       A.    Kills the leaves; and when we burn, it
18   burns.
19       Q.    So you kill the leaves and the dessican
20   dries it out?
21       A.    Uh-huh.
22       Q.    And then you burn the fields.  What is left
23   after you burn it?
24       A.    Stalks.
25       Q.    Just the cane stalks?
                                                 92

 1       A.    Yeah.  And then we come in and harvest.
 2       Q.    And how do you harvest your cane?
 3       A.    Mechanically.
 4       Q.    Is it that the majority of the growers in
 5   the EPA harvest mechanically or by hand?
 6       A.    The majority?
 7       Q.    If you know.
 8       A.    I don't really know when you ask the
 9   majority.  Most all of them have some mechanical
10   harvesting.
11       Q.    Would you say most of the acreage would be
12   harvested mechanically --
13       A.    I'd say probably half of the acreage is.
14       Q.    Are there any advantages to doing it
15   mechanically over doing it by hand?
16       A.    Well, you don't have to worry about a whole
17   lot of labor.
18       Q.    Okay.  Are there any drawbacks to
19   harvesting it mechanically?
20       A.    Some field damage.
21       Q.    Some field damage?
22       A.    Yeah.
23       Q.    What is the field damage?
24       A.    Pulled up stubble or something like that.
25   A few here and there.
                                                 93

 1       Q.    Does the machinery tend to compact the
 2   soil?
 3       A.    Somewhat.  Not very bad.  Our machine
 4   system is on a track, so it is minimal.
 5       Q.    It is on tracks, so it spreads the load
 6   out?
 7       A.    Uh-huh.  The harvester is built to
 8   transport it.  That does more on compaction.
 9       Q.    I assume you haven't always harvested
10   mechanically.
11       A.    No.
12       Q.    When did you go to mechanical harvesting?
13       A.    We have been working on it since the early
14   '70's, and I have been doing some every year since we
15   put in our research and development program at Sugar
16   Cane Growers Co-op.
17       Q.    Was it the main motivating force to cut
18   labor cost?  Was that the real advantage to it?
19       A.    That's the main advantage, yeah.
20       Q.    In the areas where cane cutters are still
21   used to cutting by hand, how do they do their job?
22   What do they do; how do they actually go out there
23   and physically harvest the cane?
24       A.    Take them to the field, and they have a
25   task assignment, and they get out and they start
                                                 94

 1   cutting the cane.
 2       Q.    They cut it with machetes?
 3       A.    Machetes, yeah.
 4       Q.    And then what happens to the cane after
 5   that?  Is it taken to the edge of the field and put
 6   on a truck?
 7       A.    No, it is in pile rows.  A cut row is two
 8   rows, a pile row is four rows.  Just mechanically
 9   taken to a wagon and transported to the mill.
10       Q.    Okay.  What happens at the mill?  What do
11   you do with the cane?
12       A.    Crush the juice out of it, reduce that
13   juice to sugar.
14       Q.    How do you do that?  With heat?
15       A.    Just like you make fudge.
16       Q.    Okay.
17       A.    You are taking the water out of it.
18       Q.    Okay.  How long does it take to get the
19   cane from the field to the mill?
20       A.    In the case of mechanical harvesting, we
21   haul it the same day.
22       Q.    Is that important?  Is timing important?
23       A.    It is an advantage for us to do it that
24   way.  It used to lay in the field probably two days.
25       Q.    Does it tend to lose some of its sugar
                                                 95

 1   content if you leave it longer?
 2       A.    Sometimes.
 3       Q.    How long does it take once you get it to
 4   the mill to get it processed, or get it into the
 5   process, I suppose.
 6       A.    What is hauled in a day will be gone by
 7   daylight in the morning.
 8       Q.    So it is a 24 hour-a-day operation?
 9       A.    Uh-huh.
10       Q.    Okay.  What by-products of the processing
11   are there?
12       A.    Molasses.  I guess you could say bagasse.
13       Q.    What is bagasse?
14       A.    It is the pulp.
15       Q.    After the cane is crushed?
16       A.    After we have taken the juice out of the
17   pulp, we use it for fuel.  I guess it could be
18   classed as a by-product.  I don't know.
19       Q.    So you wind up with sugar, molasses and
20   bagasse, and the bagasse is burned for fuel?
21       A.    Well, we use the bagasse for fuel, like I
22   said.
23       Q.    Okay.
24       A.    Or by-products that we get rid of.  There's
25   two products we get rid of; sugar and molasses.
                                                 96

 1       Q.    Are any chemicals used in the process?
 2       A.    A little bit of lime maybe.
 3       Q.    What is the lime used for?
 4       A.    pH adjustments.
 5       Q.    Is that added?  When is that added to the
 6   process?
 7       A.    That's added to the juice prior to the
 8   evaporation process.
 9       Q.    Okay.  Can you explain to me what furfural
10   is?
11       A.    It is an organic solvent.
12       Q.    Okay.  Where does that come from?
13       A.    Bagasse.
14       Q.    Okay.  So if you don't use the bagasse for
15   fuel, you can use it to make --
16       A.    Go to furfural.
17       Q.    How is that done?
18       A.    I don't know.  That's a secret process that
19   Quaker Oats had, and I have absolutely no idea.
20       Q.    Do you know where it is done?
21       A.    Yeah.  There is a chemical plant right
22   north of the sugar cane.
23       Q.    So it is out in the same area.  Okay.
24             What kind of sugar do you wind up with
25   after?
                                                 97

 1       A.    Raw sugar.
 2       Q.    What is the difference between raw sugar
 3   and refined sugar?
 4       A.    Just that.
 5       Q.    Okay.
 6       A.    Our raw sugar comes out with a little bit
 7   of molasses in it, and it goes to the refineries.
 8   That is our sale product; raw sugar.
 9       Q.    So what you sell is raw sugar?
10       A.    We sell raw sugar.
11       Q.    And you transport that to what; a railhead,
12   or you truck it out, or how do you get it to where
13   you distribute it?
14       A.    Most of it goes by oceangoing vessel and is
15   transported out of West Palm Beach.
16       Q.    And how is it distributed?
17       A.    We have a sales agency.
18       Q.    What is the name of that sales agency?
19       A.    Florida Sugar Marketing and Terminal
20   Association.
21       Q.    Okay.  Leaving that aside and going back to
22   the field that you had -- where you harvested it --
23   and you got the stubble left; how do you decide
24   whether you're going to use that stubble again next
25   year?
                                                 98

 1       A.    Well, the age of it, the stand.  Those two
 2   things, principally.
 3       Q.    Okay.  How do you look at the age of it?
 4   What is the -- what do you consider?  Just how long
 5   it is in the ground?
 6       A.    Well, I generally rotate mine on a six-year
 7   basis.  I have had it as high as 13 years and
 8   probably as low as 2 years.
 9       Q.    So that means you're using the same basic
10   root stock for six years?
11       A.    Uh-huh.  The average, yeah.
12       Q.    Okay.  And what is the other consideration
13   you looked at?
14       A.    Age and stool count.
15       Q.    What is that?
16       A.    The shoots coming back.
17       Q.    Okay.  Is that what you do to determine
18   whether or not you are going to use it again next
19   year?
20       A.    That's one of the factors.
21       Q.    How do you determine that?  You go out and
22   physically look at it?
23       A.    Yes, we look at it.  Yeah.  And not only
24   that; we refer back to the tonnage that was harvested
25   off of it.
                                                 99

 1       Q.    Okay.
 2       A.    Age, knowledge, the tonnage that came off
 3   of it, and then we look at the stool count.
 4       Q.    If you decide to go ahead and leave it in
 5   the ground --
 6       A.    Keep it.  Uh-huh.
 7       Q.    -- what do you do with the field then?
 8       A.    Okay.  We'll let it start coming back and
 9   we'll look at it and try to determine which ones we
10   are going to keep.  Okay?  We decide which ones we
11   are going to get rid of and which ones we are going
12   to keep.
13       Q.    Right.
14       A.    Then I come in with my fertilizer.
15       Q.    Okay.  On the ones you plan to keep?
16       A.    Uh-huh.
17       Q.    Okay.  I think earlier you told me that
18   when you had a furrow field, you have a furrowing
19   machine that furrows the fertilizer in.  Do you have
20   a different machine that applies the fertilizer to a
21   stubble field?
22       A.    Uh-huh.  We steel band it.
23       Q.    Steel band it?
24       A.    It is a banding machine.  We band it
25   alongside a row of cane.
                                                 100

 1       Q.    You just don't plow it now?
 2       A.    It's not in the ground, it's laying on top
 3   of the ground.
 4       Q.    Okay.  Do you do anything with the water
 5   level in the field when the stubble's in the ground?
 6       A.    If we have plenty of soil moisture, no.
 7       Q.    Okay.
 8       A.    One thing we do like to do on the fields --
 9   well, all fields we do it before we even determine
10   which ones we are going to take out -- and that's
11   behind a mechanical harvester we roll it with a heavy
12   roller and we immediately go in and break the middle
13   out.  In other words, letting air get to the root
14   system.  See, the old root system is still on the
15   stubble.
16       Q.    Right.  Right.  Okay.  And what -- say on
17   cropping year two, do you manage that any differently
18   from the way you managed it the first year once it
19   comes back up?
20       A.    Same way.
21       Q.    Pretty much the same process?
22       A.    Same cultivation process.
23       Q.    Same application of pesticides and things
24   like that?
25       A.    Herbicides.  No more pesticides.  Just that
                                                 101

 1   one time on pesticides when we plant the crop.
 2       Q.    Right.  Do the individual farms keep their
 3   statistics of how much tonnage they are getting from
 4   their stubble stock?
 5       A.    I don't know whether they do or not.  It is
 6   available for them.
 7       Q.    Do you normally keep your own, or where do
 8   you get your statistics to determine what you pulled?
 9       A.    From the Co-op.
10       Q.    How do they determine it?  Is it based on
11   the amount that was harvested and taken to their
12   mill, is it weighed?
13       A.    It is actually weighed.  Every load is
14   actually weighed.
15       Q.    Okay.  So the Co-op keeps the statistics,
16   and they are available to Co-op members?
17       A.    Uh-huh.
18       Q.    Okay.  Let me ask you a few questions about
19   the Co-op.  Can you give me a little bit of
20   background about the history of how the Co-op was
21   founded; when it was founded?
22       A.    It was organized in 1960.  There was a
23   group of us farmers out there, like I said, wanting
24   to get some stability into their lives, and there was
25   sod farmers, there were cattle ranchers, there were
                                                 102

 1   row crop and produce, and like I said, they wanted to
 2   get some stability in their life, so here came the
 3   opportunity.  We had not had that opportunity in the
 4   past.  There was two mills in there.  It was a closed --
 5   it was closed to outsiders at that time.
 6       Q.    I see.
 7       A.    So the Co-op -- in fact, a lot of the
 8   things I am associated with are Co-ops -- it gives
 9   the little man kind of the same footing as the big
10   man's got.
11       Q.    So was the concept to start something where
12   everyone would contribute to the capital expenditures
13   that no single person could afford to do?
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    Like plants and machinery and things like
16   that?
17       A.    Yes.  And to get financing.
18       Q.    Okay.  Who were the original founders of
19   the Co-op?
20       A.    There was 50 some of us, but I don't
21   remember.  It's changed.
22       Q.    You don't need to name them all.  50 some
23   odd?
24       A.    Yeah.  Over 50.  Maybe 52.  Our membership
25   is very, very little.
                                                 103

 1       Q.    I believe you told me earlier there are
 2   probably about 54.
 3       A.    That's what I was guessing, yeah.
 4       Q.    Are they basically the same members or --
 5       A.    We have had some changes.
 6       Q.    What does the Co-op do for its members?
 7   What services does it provide?
 8       A.    Harvesting their crop.
 9       Q.    How does it provide that service?  Does it
10   provide the machinery to harvest or the hand
11   harvesters or --
12       A.    They provide the entire service for us.
13   Me, as a grower, my only obligation is to grow the
14   crop.
15       Q.    Okay.
16       A.    When it comes to harvest, they take over.
17       Q.    Do you have a say over when your crop gets
18   harvested?
19       A.    I can make a request.
20       Q.    Does the Co-op own the harvesting machines?
21       A.    Yes.
22       Q.    As a Co-op?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    Does it own real estate?
25       A.    The mills.  Oh, yes.  And some farms.
                                                 104

 1       Q.    Who farms the land that the Co-op owns?
 2       A.    We do.  The Co-op.
 3       Q.    How is it physically done?  Is it a
 4   collective farm?
 5       A.    No, it is not collective.  The Co-op itself
 6   uses its people during the off season.
 7       Q.    Okay.  By virtue of membership in the
 8   Co-op, do members have any kind of ownership interest
 9   in the machinery and the plants and the real estate
10   that the Co-op owns?
11       A.    They have an ownership interest, yes.
12       Q.    How is that determined?
13       A.    By the amount of Class C stock, in this
14   case, or class B stock.  We have two classes of stock
15   outstanding right now.  Three, in fact.  One is Class
16   A voting stock.
17       Q.    So it is by purchase of stock.  Okay.  What
18   are the qualifications required to be a Co-op member?
19       A.    U.S. citizen.  If it's a corporate
20   membership, it has to be a Florida corporation,.
21       Q.    Okay.  Are there different types of Co-op
22   memberships?
23       A.    Individuals and corporate.
24       Q.    Okay.  For instance, could I join the Co-op
25   if I wanted to?
                                                 105

 1       A.    If we accepted you.
 2       Q.    Okay.  Do you think there is much
 3   likelihood of that?
 4       A.    If you have a piece of land, come to us.
 5   Get some of the states RICO land and come to us.
 6       Q.    Is there a membership fee or do you have to
 7   buy into it by buying a certain amount of stock?
 8       A.    You can buy one share of -- Class A stock
 9   is voting stock.  One share of Class C stock for
10   every ton of cane you are going to produce.
11       Q.    Now, the stock is not publicly traded, is
12   it?
13       A.    No.
14       Q.    You have to have approval of anyone who
15   wants to buy the stock?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    Is there a right of first refusal of the
18   Co-op to buy the stock of someone who wants to sell
19   stock or do they have shares that they could issue?
20       A.    No.  No to your first question.  What is
21   the second question?
22       Q.    I'm sorry.  If I wanted to buy some stock
23   and become a Co-op member, who would I seek to buy
24   that stock from?
25       A.    You make application to the Co-op board of
                                                 106

 1   directors.
 2       Q.    And if they decided to accept me as a
 3   member, where would the stock that I purchase come
 4   from?
 5       A.    We would encourage it to come from another
 6   grower.
 7       Q.    I see.  And if no other grower was willing
 8   to --
 9       A.    Then that would present another problem.
10   We have some minute shares.  It would come from
11   there.
12       Q.    That's what I wondered.  Okay.  If I was a
13   member of the Co-op for a while and then decided I
14   didn't want to be a member of the Co-op, what would I
15   do to leave and secure my investment back?  Would I
16   offer my --
17       A.    You would probably offer it for sale to
18   either the Co-op or to another grower.  You would
19   have to circulate to other growers.  In other words,
20   if you wanted to sell out your stock, you would
21   circulate a notice to the growers saying you know you
22   have a thousand shares of Class C stock for sale.
23       Q.    Is there a right of first refusal; am I
24   required to do that?
25       A.    No.  No.
                                                 107

 1       Q.    Okay.  Does the Co-op do anything else for
 2   it's members?  Does it provide any insurance?
 3       A.    No.
 4       Q.    Does it operate any pension plans?
 5       A.    For members.
 6       Q.    Yes?
 7       A.    No.
 8       Q.    Does it invest; does it make investment
 9   decisions about Co-op funds?  Are there any excess
10   funds left over at the ends of the year?
11       A.    They are distributed to the members.
12             MR. GREEN:  Let me request that counsel ask
13        one question at a time.
14             MR. KILLINGER:  That's fine.  I'm sorry.
15        I'll do that.
16   BY MR. KILLINGER:
17       Q.    Does the Co-op make loans to it's members?
18       A.    No.  Let's go back a minute on that
19   question.  We offered to buy stock back in from our
20   members' surplus stock.  We did make a stock offer to
21   our members.  You can purchase and we will arrange
22   the financing through the Bank Of co-ops.
23       Q.    Okay.
24       A.    Which we have done.  I guess you could
25   technically say that we have made loans to our
                                                 108

 1   members.  This is the first time that's happened.
 2       Q.    Okay.
 3       A.    This past year.
 4       Q.    Thank you.
 5             (Discussion held off the record.)
 6             (The document was marked
 7             Exb. No. 6.)
 8   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 9       Q.    I would like to show you what I have marked
10   as Exhibit 6 and ask you if you recognize it.
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    Can you tell me what it is?
13       A.    Are you talking about this on the front?
14       Q.    Yes.  Well you can look at the whole thing
15   and you see if you recognize it.
16       A.    Yes.  This is the Thirtieth Crop
17   Celebration.
18       Q.    Okay.  That was Saturday, April 11, 1992?
19       A.    Yeah.
20       Q.    Was this a program for -- this is a program
21   for the events that you had?
22       A.    Yes.  The Celebration, yeah.
23       Q.    If you could flip back into the next-to-the
24   last page, please; there is a section that sets forth
25   member-stockholders.
                                                 109

 1       A.    Uh-huh.
 2       Q.    I wonder if you could help me determine who
 3   these member-stockholders are.  And by that I mean,
 4   can you give me any information about whether, for
 5   instance, as an example, how many of these member-
 6   stockholders are corporations which are owned or
 7   controlled by Flo-Sun?
 8       A.    Okay.  Closter Farms.  That's the only one.
 9       Q.    Can you tell me whether any of these
10   member-stockholders are also members of the Florida
11   Sugar Cane League?
12       A.    Don't have any idea who's members of the
13   Sugar Cane League.  I speak for myself only on that
14   case.
15       Q.    That's fine.  I am just asking if you know.
16   No need for you to speculate.
17             Can you tell me whether any of these --
18   whether there are any member-stockholders on this
19   list who, despite their different names, are owned or
20   controlled by a single corporation; for instance,
21   U. S. Sugar?
22             MR. GREEN:  If you know, answer.
23             THE WITNESS:  I know the answer.  South Bay
24        Growers, Incorporated.
                                                 110

 1   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 2       Q.    Is that the only one?
 3       A.    That's the only one.
 4       Q.    Okay.  Can you tell me whether any of these
 5   member-stockholders, to your knowledge, are also
 6   members of the Florida Fruit and Vegetable
 7   Association?
 8             MR. GREEN:  I'm sorry.  Would you repeat
 9        that?
10             MR. KILLINGER:  I wondered if he could tell
11        me whether any of the member-stockholders, to
12        his knowledge, are also members of the Florida
13        Fruit and Vegetable Association.
14             MR. GREEN:  Okay.
15             THE WITNESS:  I can tell you some that are,
16        but I don't know -- I really don't know --
17   BY MR. KILLINGER:
18       Q.    Can you tell me some that are?
19       A.    I can tell you Stein Sugar Farms is a
20   member.
21       Q.    Okay.
22       A.    Let me see:  I need to talk with one of you
23   guys a minute somewhere.
24       Q.    Well, I would appreciate not taking a break
25   while there is a question pending.
                                                 111

 1             MR. GREEN:  I think you need to answer to
 2        the best of your knowledge.  Unless there is
 3        something that you know is attorney/client
 4        privilege or confidential business information
 5        type thing.
 6             THE WITNESS:  I just need to get it -- it
 7        could be that all of us are.
 8   BY MR. KILLINGER:
 9       Q.    Okay.  Why do you say it could be?
10       A.    I think all of us are.
11       Q.    Okay.
12       A.    I think it.
13       Q.    Okay.  That's fine.  I'm not trying to bind
14   you to it?
15       A.    There are some of them that may not be --
16   may be members in two or three places, but I think
17   every member of our Co-op is a member of Florida
18   Fruit.