1

1 Division of Administrative Hearings

2 Department of Administration, State of Florida

SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )

4 of FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and )

WEDGWORTH FARMS, Inc., )

5 Petitioners )

V ) DOAH Case

6 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) No. 92-3038

DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

7 of Florida; et al., )

Respondents. )

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; )

9 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )

and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )

10 Petitioners, )

V ) DOAH Case

11 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) No. 92-3039

DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

12 of Florida; et al., )

Respondents. )

FLORIDA FRUIT and VEGETABLE )

14 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )

W. E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )

15 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

Petitioners, )

16 V ) DOAH Case

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) No. 92-3040

17 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

18 Respondents. )

Deposition of Fritz Stein

20 VOLUME I

21 Taken before Elaine V. Williams,

Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for

22 the State of Florida at large, pursuant to notice of

taking deposition filed by the Department of

23 Environmental Regulation in the above cause.

- - -

24 Tuesday, March 9, 1993

331 Gun Club Road

25 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401

11:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.

1 APPEARANCES:

On behalf of the Petitioners:

3 Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams P.A.

123 S. Calhoon St.

4 Tallahassee, Florida 32314

By: WILLIAM GREEN, ESQUIRE

6 On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD:

South Florida Water Management District

7 3301 Gun Club Road

West Palm Beach, Florida 33416-4680

8 By: No appearance

9 On behalf of the Intervenor, United States of America:

Department of Justice

10 155 South Miami Avenue, Suite 627

Miami, Florida 33130-1693

11 BY: KATHY A. STARK, ESQUIRE

12 On behalf of the State of Florida:

Department of Environmental Regulation

13 Twin Towers Office Building

2600 Blair Stone Road

14 Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400

By: LEE M. KILLINGER, ESQUIRE

Also Present: Jeffrey J. Ward

16 Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative

17 - - -

1 - - -

2 I N D E X

3 - - -

5 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

6 Fritz Stein

BY MR. KILLINGER: 4

9 - - -

10 E X H I B I T S

11 - - -

13 NUMBER PAGE NO. DESCRIPTION

14 EXB. NO. 1 6 Notice, Duces Tecum

EXB. NO. 2 6 Expert witness Disclosure

15 EXB. NO. 3 9 Witness list

EXB. NO. 4 10 resume' of F. Stein

16 EXB. NO. 5 15 Old map

EXB. NO. 6 108 30th Crop celebration program

17 EXB. NO. 7 113 Water management table

EXB. NO. 8 120 Sugar & Sweetener Yearbook

18 EXB. NO. 9 152 Draft Comments, F. Stein

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 - - -

3 Thereupon,

4 Fritz Stein,

5 being by the undersigned Notary Public first duly

6 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

7 THE WITNESS: I do.

8 DIRECT (Fritz Stein)

9 BY MR. KILLINGER:

10 Q. Mr. Stein, my name is Lee Killinger, and I

11 am here on behalf of the Florida Department of

12 Environmental Regulation to take your deposition in

13 the case which is known generally as the Everglades

14 SWIM Plan litigation. Are you generally familiar

15 with what is going on in that lawsuit, what the

16 allegations are and who the parties are?

17 A. I know who, yeah.

18 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken

19 before?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. So I'll just tell you again for the

22 record that if I ask you a question which is unclear

23 or you don't understand or you think you'll have a

24 hard time answering, please ask me to rephrase it so

25 that I ask it correctly. I don't want you to try to

1 answer a question you don't feel is appropriate. And

2 we'll just go on.

3 You say you have been deposed before. In

4 connection with what?

5 A. An accident a long time ago back in the

6 early '60's.

7 Q. Automobile accident?

8 A. Well, it was a bus accident, but --

9 Q. Oh, okay. Is that the only occasion?

10 A. That comes to mind, yes.

11 Q. Okay. That's fine. Let me hand you what

12 I'll mark as Exhibit 1 -- and counsel, I didn't bring

13 extra copies of this to the deposition, you all can

14 all look at it -- and ask you if you have seen that.

15 A. I don't believe I have seen this one. Yes,

16 I have seen this, yeah. Yes, I have seen this one.

17 Q. Okay. I notice you are looking at the

18 attachment with regard to documents to be produced.

19 Did you look at that prior to today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Have you in fact produced documents

22 pursuant to that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. We have received a packet of

25 documents from Mr. Ward, I believe. Did you help him

1 assemble that packet of documents to send to us?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. GREEN: Excuse me. Mr. Killinger, is

4 this Exhibit 1, did you say?

5 MR. KILLINGER: Yes, it is. She hasn't got

6 a sticker on it yet.

7 (The document was marked

8 Exb. No. 1.)

9 BY MR. KILLINGER:

10 Q. Have you held back any documents that you

11 would have otherwise produced on the basis that those

12 documents are privileged or reflect some

13 attorney/client work product, to your knowledge?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. And do the documents, generally

16 speaking, that you have produced reflect the opinions

17 and statements, your opinions, as stated in them?

18 A. Yes.

19 (The document was marked

20 Exb. No. 2.)

21 BY MR. KILLINGER:

22 Q. Okay, thank you. I guess I will hand you

23 what I'll have marked as Exhibit 2.

24 I'll explain to counsel for the record what

25 that is. It is the front page and the relevant page

1 of this to this deposition of the witness designation

2 for the League and related parties.

3 I would like to ask you if you have ever

4 seen that document.

5 A. I haven't seen this document before.

6 Q. Have not?

7 MS. STARK: I'm sorry. Was that from the

8 League or the Co-op?

9 MR. KILLINGER: That's the League.

10 MS. STARK: Okay.

11 BY MR. KILLINGER:

12 Q. Are you aware that the League had put you

13 on their witness list as a witness to testify on

14 their behalf?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have you discussed testifying as a witness

17 with anyone from the Sugar Cane League or any of

18 their related parties?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could I borrow that back from you just for

21 a second? Okay. If you could look at the subject

22 matter of expected testimony, it indicates that you

23 are expected to testify on behalf of the League

24 regarding SWIM plan development, water quality in

25 EPA, water supply, other general areas of testimony

1 may be added as issues in the case develop. Do you

2 consider yourself to be knowledgeable about SWIM plan

3 development?

4 MR. GREEN: Object to the form.

5 You may answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I was involved in a SWIM plan

7 development program when I was on the Board of

8 the South Florida Water Management District.

9 BY MR. KILLINGER:

10 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself to be

11 knowledgeable with regard to water quality in the

12 EPA?

13 A. What about EPA now? I don't understand

14 EPA.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Would that be the EAA?

17 Q. If you heard the designation EPA, referring

18 to the Everglades Protection Area --

19 A. No.

20 Q. -- are you familiar with that acronym?

21 A. No.

22 MR. KILLINGER: Okay. That's all for that

23 one. I think you can mark it and we can put

24 that one aside.

1 (The document was marked

2 Exb. No. 3.)

3 BY MR. KILLINGER:

4 Q. I'll show what we have marked as Exhibit 3.

5 For the record, this is the witness designation of

6 the Co-op, the initial page, and the page on which

7 you are referenced, Mr. Stein, and I wanted to ask

8 you if you have ever seen that document before.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When did you first review that document?

11 A. A week or two ago.

12 Q. Why did you review the document? Was it

13 presented to you by your attorneys to review?

14 A. You had this. Not this one. This one.

15 You want the subject matter?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Development of the EAAs.

18 Q. Yes. Again, if we can put that down in the

19 center so we can read off the designation, you're

20 designated as having -- "subject matter of expected

21 testimony is agricultural practices and development

22 in the EAA and an overview of the Florida sugar

23 industry". Do you consider yourself to be

24 knowledgeable about agricultural practices and

25 development in the EAA?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you consider yourself to be

3 knowledgeable about an overview of the Florida sugar

4 industry?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Did you help draft this statement

7 about what the subject matter of your expected

8 testimony would be?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay.

11 (The document was marked

12 Exb. No. 4.)

13 BY MR. KILLINGER:

14 Q. I would like to show you Exhibit 4 that I

15 have marked and ask you if you recognize that.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us what it is?

18 A. It is a resume' is what it is.

19 Q. Okay. It doesn't seem to be dated. Can

20 you tell me when it was prepared originally?

21 A. Oh, let me think back. In the spring of --

22 let me do a little counting here.

23 Q. That's fine.

24 A. I believe it would have been 1987. It is

25 prior to me becoming a member of the Governing Board

1 of the South Florida Water Management District.

2 Q. Okay. That's close enough.

3 A. I don't even remember now when I went in.

4 Q. That's fine.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Why was it prepared?

7 A. That was the purpose.

8 Q. That was the purpose?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That was the objective?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. It has been -- there are some marks on -- I

13 believe the P.O. Box has been changed and the

14 telephone number has been changed and something on

15 the back page has one change to it. When were those

16 changes made? Approximately. I'm not looking for a

17 date and time.

18 A. In the last couple years.

19 Q. Okay. Okay. I would like to sort of go

20 down the resume' and have you fill me in on a little

21 bit about your background.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. Just going down the list, I guess we have

24 the first thing, University of Florida; you got a

25 Bachelor of Science of Agricultural in 1954?

1 A. Right.

2 Q. What was your major? Was that agriculture?

3 A. It was in animal husbandry in those days.

4 Q. That's what I wondered. I didn't know if

5 that was a different major. And what courses were

6 involved, sort of broadly, in that degree?

7 A. Soils, fertilizers, crop production,

8 genetics. You are going back a long time in my life.

9 Q. Okay. That's fine.

10 A. And a lot of other courses.

11 Q. I don't think I could answer that question

12 myself.

13 A. I could have produced my --

14 Q. No, I don't need a transcript.

15 A. Transcript is what I was trying to think.

16 I guess you could ask for that.

17 Q. Let's talk a little bit about the business

18 experience you have got. You put down there Fritz

19 Stein Farms, and in parentheses cattle, and then the

20 owner.

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. Are you the sole owner of Fritz Stein

23 Farms?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it a corporation?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Where does Fritz Stein Farms do business?

3 A. Belle Glade, Florida.

4 Q. Is all of the land owned by Fritz Stein

5 Farms in or around Belle Glade?

6 A. The land is owned by me individually.

7 Q. The land is owned by you.

8 A. Uh-huh. The cattle operation is in

9 Highlands County.

10 Q. Highlands County?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Can you describe for me briefly what the

13 operation is?

14 A. Cow, calf operation. We sell the calves

15 for produce.

16 Q. How many do you have, approximately?

17 A. I should have more than a thousand. I

18 don't have an exact count.

19 Q. How much land do you have out there?

20 A. There's 3300 acres involved in the

21 Highlands County operation, about 750 acres in the

22 Belle Glade area.

23 Q. Is the 750 related to cattle?

24 A. No. Just maybe 50 acres of it.

25 Q. Okay.

1 A. The majority is sugar production.

2 Q. Would that lead us into Stein Sugar Farms,

3 Incorporated?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. About 700 acres?

6 A. 750. Somewhere in that area.

7 Q. Also in Belle Glade?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you the founder of Fritz Stein Farms,

10 the cattle operation?

11 A. I won't say I was the founder of it. It is

12 a carryover from my dad's operation.

13 Q. Okay. Do you know how long it's been in

14 existence?

15 A. Well, my people came here in 1915.

16 Q. Did they come here to ranch cattle?

17 A. To farm.

18 Q. To farm. Was the cattle operation part of

19 the original setup that they had when they first

20 moved here, or do you know?

21 A. Well, from what I have been told they had

22 one cow, just a milk cow, and from that point, it

23 evolved.

24 Q. All right. Tell me about the Stein Sugar

25 Farms. When did that get started?

1 A. 1967.

2 Q. Did you start that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that's a corporation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it a publicly held corporation?

7 A. No, it is a family corporation.

8 Q. And it operates about 750 acres?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you give me an approximate physical

11 location of where the land is in relation to, for

12 instance, Lake Okeechobee?

13 A. Most of it borders Lake Okeechobee --

14 Hoover Dike.

15 Q. I think in the bowels of these documents I

16 have a map.

17 (The document was marked

18 Exb. No. 5.)

19 BY MR. KILLINGER:

20 Q. I'll mark this map as Exhibit 5. I'll mark

21 both of them. It is two maps. And I'll ask you if

22 you can review these and point out for us where the

23 land is that Stein Farms, Incorporated is on.

24 In fact, if you want to take this yellow

25 highlighter and do your thing on it.

1 A. I don't think these are exactly to scale,

2 but here is the end of this piece. The end of this

3 is right here. This is two right here.

4 Q. Okay. While you are looking at those

5 documents, one of them -- I'll make it a composite

6 exhibit, and it will be Number 5, and ask you to

7 explain to me approximately how many acres are in the

8 area you have just outlined on the map that has the

9 exhibit sticker on it.

10 A. What would you like for me to do?

11 Q. I just didn't know if you could give me a

12 ballpark about how many acres are on each map. I

13 don't need specifics, I just wanted to know if you

14 knew how they were divided up.

15 A. About 250 acres in this one, about 100

16 acres in this one, 108 acres in this one, about 300

17 in this one.

18 Q. So all but about three hundred acres is on

19 the map with the sticker on it?

20 A. Uh-huh.

21 Q. Okay. That's fine.

22 A. We are talking approximate.

23 Q. Right. That's fine.

24 When you started Stein Sugar Farms,

25 Incorporated in 1967, did you start it with this

1 amount of land?

2 A. Stein Sugar Farms is not the only --

3 MR. GREEN: Excuse me. Let me just ask you

4 to clarify, to make the record clear, what land

5 you are talking about.

6 BY MR. KILLINGER:

7 Q. The land that you have described, the

8 approximately 750 acres of sugar cane that you

9 presently have in sugar cane operations one way or

10 the other, which is reflected on the outlined maps of

11 Exhibit 5, when you started Stein Sugar Farms,

12 Incorporated in 1967, did you start it by purchasing

13 this amount of land, did you already own the land, or

14 did you start with some smaller amount and increase

15 later on?

16 A. I owned the land individually.

17 Q. Okay. Then what were you doing?

18 A. I would say probably less than what there

19 is there now.

20 Q. Okay. What were you using the lands for

21 before you started Stein Sugar Farms, Incorporated?

22 A. To grow crops.

23 Q. To grow crops? Was it sugar?

24 A. No. It could have been corn, sweet corn,

25 green beans, some lettuce.

1 Q. Why did you decide to make the switch to

2 sugar cane?

3 A. It is a more stable crop.

4 Q. Did you make the changeover all at once or

5 did you phase it in?

6 A. Gradually.

7 Q. What would be just about the first year

8 that you had this entire acreage in production of

9 sugar cane and not the former row crops?

10 A. I don't know. I would just have to go back

11 and review the history.

12 Q. Do you grow anything besides sugar cane

13 now?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I guess we'll go back to the resume'

16 briefly, and let me ask you about the Experience in

17 Responsibility section. It shows that you were

18 involved in the South Florida Conservancy District,

19 '68 to present. Now, this resume' was done, I think

20 you said, a couple years ago and updated. Are you

21 still involved in the South Florida Conservancy

22 District?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what capacity?

25 A. Board member.

1 Q. What are your responsibilities and duties

2 as a board member at the South Florida Conservancy

3 District?

4 A. Well, we set policy is basically what we

5 do.

6 Q. Set policy with regard to what? Well, let

7 me back up a little bit. What does the South Florida

8 Conservancy District govern; what does it do, what's

9 its purpose?

10 A. It is a sub Drainage District is what it

11 is; managing water.

12 Q. Okay. And does the board establish,

13 itself, drainage and water management policies? Are

14 those the policies you are referring to?

15 A. Yes, we do.

16 Q. Okay. What else does the board do?

17 A. Well, we have a crew of people we have to

18 work with. We have a general manager. We direct

19 him.

20 Q. Okay. What does he do?

21 A. He is a day-to-day manager. He manages the

22 personnel, he manages the pump system.

23 Q. How many board members are there?

24 A. Three.

25 Q. Who are the others?

1 A. Frank Pohill and James Chamblee.

2 Q. What does Frank Pohill do?

3 A. He's Vice-president, U. S. Sugar

4 Corporation.

5 Q. And what does James Chamblee do?

6 A. He is a farmer and landowner.

7 Q. I believe the resume' indicates that the

8 acreage covered by the Conservancy District is

9 approximately 32,540 acres; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where is that acreage located,

12 approximately?

13 A. It goes from Hendry County, back to the

14 east; to the Belle Glade area.

15 Q. What water management functions and

16 responsibilities does the Conservancy District have

17 to set policies about? Do they regulate farmers, is

18 it some urban runoff; what water policies do they

19 have?

20 A. We have farm runoff and urban runoff.

21 Q. So I guess -- explain to me the management

22 policies that you're required to deal with; with

23 regard to the farms, for instance.

24 A. We provide the drainage for these areas.

25 Q. Okay. The drainage from the farm lands?

1 A. And urban lands.

2 Q. Okay. Where does the water get drained to?

3 A. In the Works of the District, South Florida

4 Water Management District.

5 Q. Okay. Looking down at the next item, it

6 says "Palm Beach County Soil and Water Conservation

7 District, past chairman and supervisor". What dates

8 were you involved with Palm Beach County Soil and

9 Water Conservation District?

10 A. Way back in the '60's, I think.

11 Q. What were the responsibilities of the Palm

12 Beach County Soil and Water Conservation District?

13 A. We provide technical help to farmers in the

14 county.

15 Q. What sort of technical help?

16 A. Helping them to lay out systems and to --

17 Q. Would that be drainage systems?

18 A. Right. Drainage and irrigation; both.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. They also had responsibility in the urban

21 areas over here on the east coast; beach work, and

22 provided assistance to homeowners and so forth.

23 Q. Okay. Flipping over to the next page, it

24 shows that you were involved with the Environmental

25 Land Management Study Commission I from 1971-72.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was that study commission about?

3 A. You go way back, don't you? Environmental

4 Land Management.

5 Q. So it was about pretty much what the title

6 describes?

7 A. Yes, that's exactly right.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. In fact, Allan Milledge was chairman.

10 Q. Did it concern itself with a particular

11 location or area?

12 A. Statewide.

13 Q. Did it address water quality issues?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you remember what its primary focus was?

16 A. DRIs and things like that. I think

17 agriculture was exempt.

18 Q. Okay. Next, I believe, we have the Palm

19 Beach County Area Planning Board that you were a

20 member of from 1966 to '73.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell me what that area planning

23 board does?

24 A. Well, it was responsible for land use

25 planning in Palm Beach County and transportation

1 systems, such as that.

2 Q. Was that primarily urban?

3 A. Urban, yes.

4 Q. Next we have the Sugar Cane Growers

5 Cooperative of Florida. It says you were founding

6 director, vice-president, member of the executive

7 committee. I guess what I would like to hear is a

8 little bit of your history with the Co-op. When was

9 it founded?

10 A. 1960.

11 Q. And you were a founding director?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know who the other founding

14 directors were?

15 A. No, I can't recall all of them. Some of

16 them maybe.

17 Q. Do you recall how many of them there were?

18 A. 11.

19 Q. Okay. I understand. It says on your

20 resume' that you are the vice-president and member of

21 the executive committee. Is that still the case --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- today?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How long have you been a vice-president?

1 A. Probably ten years or so.

2 Q. How long have you been a member of the

3 executive committee?

4 A. Same length of time.

5 Q. Are you on the executive committee by

6 virtue of being a vice-president?

7 A. Not necessarily.

8 Q. It says that the Co-op is a 52-member

9 farmer-owned cooperative engaged in the harvesting,

10 transportation and processing of sugar cane, and it

11 goes on and talks a little bit more about it. The

12 number's been changed to 52. Is that number accurate

13 today?

14 A. I don't think it is today, no.

15 Q. How many members do you think there are?

16 A. I don't know exactly, but I would say 54.

17 Q. Skipping to the next one, the Federal Land

18 Bank of South Florida; do you recall what dates you

19 were associated with the Federal Land Bank?

20 A. No, I don't know the exact dates that I

21 served there.

22 Q. Do you know approximate dates?

23 A. I have been off five or six years now.

24 Q. What does Federal Land Bank of South

25 Florida do?

1 A. Make loans, long-term loans, to farmers.

2 Q. The next one down is the Columbia Bank for

3 Cooperatives.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know what dates you were involved

6 with them?

7 A. No. I was just on the advisory committee

8 with them, and it's been more than five years ago.

9 Q. What did you do when you were sitting on

10 the advisory committee?

11 A. We didn't do very much. In fact, we only

12 had a few meetings.

13 Q. What were you supposed to be advising

14 about?

15 A. We were more or less the sounding board for

16 the outside, for the borrowers.

17 Q. The next entry down is the Florida State

18 Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Service.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall when your involvement was

21 with that organization?

22 A. 11 years. And that 11 years ended January

23 the 20th, 1993.

24 Q. Can you tell me what that service does?

25 A. Yes. We administered all the farm programs

1 in the State of Florida. All federal farm programs.

2 Q. Does that include any programs which affect

3 the sugar industry?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What programs?

6 A. Well, the loan program, administration.

7 Q. Anything else?

8 A. Not that I can think of offhand.

9 Q. Do you know what the dollar volume of the

10 loan program involving the sugar industry is that is

11 administered by ASCS?

12 A. It would vary from year to year. Probably

13 from 100 million to 200 million. That range.

14 Q. The next entry is the Florida Sugar Cane

15 League, Inc. It indicates that you are past president

16 and past member of the board. Can you clear me up on

17 some of the dates on this since one of the "pasts"

18 has been added in there?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. When did you first get involved with the

21 League?

22 A. The Cooperative was a member of the League

23 and I don't remember what year we created the League,

24 but --

25 Q. The Cooperative was in existence before the

1 League?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the Co-op was a member of the League?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you, individually, a member of the

6 League?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is Fritz Stein Farms, Incorporated a member

9 of the League?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Have you or Fritz Stein Farms,

12 Incorporated, either party, been members of the

13 League?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So your connection with the League has been

16 through your participation in the Co-op?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Do you recall when you were the president

19 of the League?

20 A. 1984 I think; the best I can remember.

21 Q. Do you recall how long you were on the

22 board? Here it says "since 1974", but I'm not sure

23 when that terminated.

24 A. We terminated our membership in the League --

25 can we go off the record a minute?

1 Q. Sure.

2 (Discussion held off the record.)

3 THE WITNESS: Best of my recollection,

4 sometime in 1991.

5 BY MR. KILLINGER:

6 Q. That's fine. I'm not trying to catch you

7 on it.

8 A. Okay.

9 MR. GREEN: I think the record has some

10 statements concerning that, that we may or may

11 not agree with, but I just wanted to bring that

12 to your attention, Mr. Killinger. When I say

13 "the record", I mean the pleadings in this case.

14 MR. KILLINGER: I gather it is from certain

15 prior depositions that had been discussed.

16 MR. GREEN: Yeah.

17 BY MR. KILLINGER:

18 Q. This says that the League represents

19 growers and processors of sugar cane in Florida. How

20 many growers and processors does the League

21 represent?

22 A. I have no idea.

23 Q. You have no approximation?

24 A. No, I have none,

25 Q. Okay. Looking down, next, at the Florida

1 Molasses Exchange, can you give me some approximate

2 dates you were involved with that?

3 A. I'm still a member of that board.

4 Q. And it says that it is a cooperative

5 marketing association that markets the molasses

6 produced at the sugar mills. How long has that been

7 in existence; do you know?

8 A. No, I don't. I don't recall.

9 Q. Do you recall when you became a board

10 member?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Do you recall approximately how long ago?

13 A. More than ten years.

14 Q. The next entry is the Florida Division of

15 the American Society of Sugar Cane Technologists,

16 past president. What is that organization or

17 society?

18 A. It is made up mostly of people who work in

19 the mills and in the agricultural end of the cane

20 operations.

21 Q. Is it a technical organization?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is its reason for existence; do you

24 know?

25 A. It gives the guys, and especially in

1 Louisiana and Florida, the opportunity to exchange

2 information, bill information, and how to make a

3 boiler run better or to --

4 Q. Technical information?

5 A. Things like that. More the operation of

6 the mills.

7 Q. Technical and engineering knowledge;

8 information?

9 A. Yeah. Having to do with the mills.

10 Q. Are you an engineer?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Have you got any specialized training in

13 any technical fields, like engineering?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Have you taken any specialized courses

16 since college?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Next is Belle Glade Housing Authority,

19 chairman. Do you have any approximate dates for your

20 involvement with that?

21 A. I think since the early '60's.

22 Q. Are you still involved with it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It says here that administers 630 housing

25 units. That was, I'm sure, correct at the time the

1 resume' was prepared. Do you know if that's still

2 approximately correct?

3 A. That's approximately correct.

4 Q. Are there any organizations or affiliations

5 that you have a connection with that aren't listed on

6 your resume'?

7 MR. GREEN: Object to the form.

8 You may answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Not that I can think of.

10 BY MR. KILLINGER:

11 Q. Earlier you said that you made the switch

12 from vegetable crops to sugar cane because it was a

13 more stable crop. Can you fill me in on what you

14 mean by that the word "stable"?

15 A. The produce business, or the growing of

16 perishable crops, is up and down. There is no

17 stability to it whatsoever. It is just a supply and

18 demand situation.

19 Q. You mean price stability?

20 A. Price stability, weather, everything.

21 Q. And sugar is more stable?

22 A. Sugar is more stable, yeah.

23 Q. Can you tell me why that is?

24 A. Well, from the weather standpoint, it takes

25 a lot of cold weather to kill it; from the price

1 standpoint, when we got in the sugar business, it was

2 administered by the Federal Government under a quota

3 system, so we knew what we were going to get for a

4 crop. It is less labor intensive.

5 Q. Is all the land that you have set aside for

6 sugar, cultivations in sugar, in cultivation all the

7 time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you rotate crops and let fields lie

10 fallow?

11 A. I let them lay fallow, but for a short

12 period of time.

13 Q. Okay. In connection with your operation of

14 your sugar cane farm, do you have permits that you

15 are required to get from governmental authorities?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Who do you have permits with?

18 A. South Florida Water Management District.

19 Q. Anybody else?

20 A. None that I can think of.

21 Q. Any Drainage District; do you have permits

22 with them?

23 A. Huh-uh.

24 Q. Okay. What sort of permits do you have

25 with the district? Water related permits?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you have any non-water related permits

3 with any agency?

4 A. No.

5 MR. KILLINGER: Let's go off the record.

6 (Discussion held off the record.)

7 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)

8 BY MR. KILLINGER:

9 Q. All right, I guess we are back on the

10 record. Okay. Before we took a break, you mentioned

11 the Cooperative's resignation from the League. Could

12 you tell me the details of that split or resignation

13 or however you want to phrase it; what caused it and

14 how it occurred, and the timing of it?

15 MR. GREEN: Object to the form. I think

16 you asked about three questions.

17 BY MR. KILLINGER:

18 Q. I did. It was asking for a narrative

19 answer.

20 Do you know about the split between the

21 Sugar Cane League and the Co-op?

22 A. I am familiar with that split, yes.

23 Q. Okay. Can you fill me in on the details of

24 how it transpired? Do you know what caused it, to

25 start with?

1 A. Well, what caused it, basically, was that

2 we found ourselves in a position --

3 Q. Let me stop you for a second. Who is "we"?

4 I just want to make sure.

5 A. Sugar Cane Growers Co-op.

6 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

7 A. -- that we were outside the decision-making

8 loop, and we didn't like to be in that position.

9 Q. The decision-making loop being at the

10 League?

11 A. As far as the League is concerned, right.

12 Q. Approximately when was this?

13 A. I don't remember any exact dates. Your

14 question was --

15 Q. Do you remember the approximate date? Was

16 it during the Federal litigation?

17 MR. GREEN: I think the question was asked

18 and answered.

19 MR. KILLINGER: I was just trying to get

20 him to go back into it.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, I think the answer I

22 gave before was sometime in 1991.

23 BY MR. KILLINGER:

24 Q. That's fine. What decisions were being

25 made that the Co-op disagreed with?

1 MR. GREEN: Object to the form.

2 You may answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't know of any specific

4 decisions that caused us to do that. It was

5 just the general direction it was going without

6 our involvement.

7 BY MR. KILLINGER:

8 Q. Okay. Well, do you recall what direction

9 it was going at the time?

10 A. We had some disagreement with

11 representation. Mainly, we were just outside of the

12 decision-making process.

13 Q. Who was the representation at that time?

14 A. Earl.

15 Q. Peeples, Earl & Blank?

16 A. I assume that's the name of the company.

17 Q. Is that Bill Earl?

18 A. Bill Earl.

19 Q. Do you recall what problems you had --

20 disagreement -- I'm sorry -- with the representation?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. When you say decisions were being made with

23 the Co-op outside the loop, who was making the

24 decisions?

25 A. The Fanjul interests in U. S. Sugar

1 Corporation.

2 Q. Do you know whether the Fanjuls and

3 U. S. Sugar comprised particularly a large percentage

4 of the League in terms of control?

5 A. They can control it.

6 Q. They can control it? I am a little bit

7 curious. You say there were decisions being made

8 that you disagreed with or that were going on without

9 your input, I suppose. Can you remember anything

10 about the direction or the type of decisions that

11 were being made that you disagreed with about the

12 representation? Was it a matter of publicity or

13 settlement negotiations or do you recall anything

14 specific about it at all?

15 MR. GREEN: Let me object to this extent;

16 to the extent that that question seeks to elicit

17 litigation strategy that the League might have

18 been developing, I think it would be

19 inappropriate for Mr. Stein to answer that

20 question based on the attorney/client privilege

21 of those who are not present. However, for the

22 rest of that, he's welcome to answer, even

23 though I believe it is irrelevant.

24 MR. GREEN: To the best of his knowledge.

25 MR. KILLINGER: For the record, are you

1 instructing him not to answer with regard to --

2 MR. GREEN: Depends on the question you

3 ask.

4 MR. KILLINGER: -- with regard to questions

5 which may impact attorney/client privilege of

6 the League and its attorneys?

7 MR. GREEN: I might. It depends on the

8 question you ask.

9 MR. KILLINGER: Well, you objected to the

10 most recent question, so I am wondering.

11 MR. GREEN: Just ask it and I'll respond.

12 MR. KILLINGER: Can you read it back?

13 (Thereupon, a portion of the record

14 was read by the reporter.)

15 MR. GREEN: I think that's asking Mr. Stein

16 questions about settlement negotiations and

17 potentially litigation strategy that occurred

18 when the Co-operative was a member of the League

19 and, therefore, I think is protected about it

20 attorney/client privilege and I would instruct

21 him not to answer that; at least to the extent

22 that it relates to litigation strategy.

23 MR. KILLINGER: Well, without trying to

24 depose you, Mr. Green, are you here representing

25 the League today?

1 MR. GREEN: No, sir.

2 MR. KILLINGER: Okay. Then I think that if

3 the League needs or wants to be represented, to

4 raise objections, the League needs to be here to

5 do that, and they are not, so I guess I will --

6 if you are going to instruct him not to answer

7 the question I can't get him to answer it.

8 That's fine.

9 MR. GREEN: I think if you ask your

10 questions one at a time, very specifically, we

11 may not have a problem.

12 MR. KILLINGER: Okay. Well, I will

13 continue, and I will note the objection you have

14 to that, although I think it should be answered.

15 BY MR. KILLINGER:

16 Q. Mr. Stein, are you familiar, or were you

17 familiar at the time, with the litigation strategy of

18 the League?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. GREEN: That solves that.

22 BY MR. KILLINGER:

23 Q. Can you give me a specific example of a

24 decision, or a direction, of the League with which

25 the Co-op disagreed?

1 A. Specifically? No, I can't.

2 Q. Can you give me a subject matter of

3 disagreement?

4 A. One was public relations.

5 Q. Okay. What was the disagreement about

6 public relations?

7 A. The way the League was going the direction

8 they were going.

9 Q. What direction, what way, was the League

10 going?

11 A. We had our own in-house public relations

12 people there at the time, and two major companies

13 decided they wanted to go with outside organization.

14 We disagreed with that.

15 Q. Fair enough. Can you think of any other

16 disagreements that you had with the League? And by

17 "you" I mean the Co-op; I don't mean you

18 specifically, necessarily.

19 A. The way it was being managed and those

20 kinds of things.

21 Q. What I am trying to find out is a little

22 bit more specifics about the way it was being

23 managed, that would cause a split off.

24 A. We were not in the decision-making process.

25 Q. Are you saying that the decisions were made

1 without your approval?

2 A. Exactly.

3 Q. And that you eventually disagreed with?

4 A. We would have liked to have been consulted.

5 Q. Are you saying that you didn't necessarily

6 agree with them, but the fact that you weren't

7 consulted was a problem?

8 A. Sometimes we may not have agreed with them,

9 yes. I don't know of any instances, but --

10 Q. Did the League amend its charter or its

11 bylaws?

12 A. I don't know whether they have or not.

13 Q. Was there a discussion about it?

14 A. There was discussion.

15 Q. Do you recall what the discussion was

16 about? Was it a proposed amendment?

17 A. No, I don't recall.

18 Q. Was that one of the areas of disagreement?

19 A. It could have been an area of disagreement.

20 Q. Okay. After the Co-op tendered its

21 resignation from the League, did it retain its own

22 counsel at that point?

23 A. I don't remember if it was at that point or

24 we had counsel retained prior to that.

25 Q. Okay. Do you think it was prior to that?

1 A. I just don't remember. I wouldn't even

2 guess at it.

3 Q. Can you tell me how the League derives its

4 income from its members?

5 A. It is based on a tonnage basis.

6 Q. How does that work?

7 A. So much a ton of sugar.

8 Q. Does the League buy cane from --

9 A. No.

10 Q. -- growers?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How does the League get its money?

13 A. From the processor.

14 Q. Okay. Why does the processor pay the

15 League?

16 A. Because it is the association; it is their

17 association.

18 Q. I'm not sure I understand it. Maybe I'll

19 come back to it later on. I think I would like to

20 just go back on my outline and go back up to the

21 overview of the cane industry in Florida, since

22 that's one of your designated areas.

23 I would like you to sort of take me through

24 the process of how cane is grown from basically a

25 fallow field through the production and harvesting

1 process of the crop. Would that be a safe place to

2 start with; a field that is fallow, as the beginning

3 of a sugar cane crop?

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. Okay. Why would you let a field lie fallow

6 in the first place?

7 A. Well, first of all, I would have to prepare

8 the land for the next crop.

9 Q. Okay. What does that involve?

10 A. Well, killing out the old stubble.

11 Q. How is that done?

12 A. With a harrow; a disc harrow.

13 Q. So you just disc it in?

14 A. We disc it in and then let it lay a couple

15 weeks and then disc it again and just keep it clean;

16 keep the weeds killed off.

17 Q. How is that done?

18 A. With the same thing.

19 Q. With the harrow?

20 A. Yeah. Just discing it.

21 Q. Right.

22 A. And then about two weeks prior to planting

23 I'll come in and mole drain the land.

24 Q. Let me slow you down. For example, how

25 long would a field normally lie fallow before you --

1 A. One of my fields?

2 Q. Yes.

3 Q. -- before you put it back into production

4 and plant a new crop --

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. -- after the harvest of the prior crop?

7 A. Okay. This year my cane will be -- the

8 harvest will be completed probably the first week in

9 April. I may wait up to a month to see what kind of

10 stand I might have coming back --

11 Q. From the old stubble?

12 A. -- from the old stubble-- before I

13 determine which fields I'll take out.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I'll determine which fields I'm going to

16 take out at that time, and I won't do anything to

17 them, and that's when I'll start the process I

18 described to you earlier.

19 Q. Okay. So you would wait a month or so to

20 see what you would get, and you would take the ones

21 out if you decide they weren't going to be productive

22 the following year?

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. Okay. I'll come back to the stubble, I

25 think, in a minute. Is that standard practice for

1 most sugar farmers; to your knowledge?

2 A. To my knowledge, yes.

3 Q. Letting it lie fallow about that long while

4 determining?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does anybody allow their fields to lie

7 fallow for longer than that?

8 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with other

9 operations to that extent.

10 Q. Do you know whether or not anybody -- I

11 assume -- I am going to ask you this question: Do

12 you rotate any crops through your fields?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You just grow sugar cane?

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. Do you know whether any agricultural area

17 farmers do rotate their crops?

18 A. Some of them do, yes.

19 Q. Do you know what crops are normally

20 rotated?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. So, assume you have decided the

23 stubble is not going to be productive the following

24 year, the first thing you do is you go out there and

25 disc it in and --

1 A. Try to kill out the old stubble, yes.

2 Q. -- keep it clear for about a month; is that

3 what it takes?

4 A. To kill it.

5 Q. Do you level the field during that time --

6 A. If it is needed.

7 Q. -- or does the discing do that?

8 A. If it is needed.

9 Q. How do you level it, if it is needed?

10 A. Well, there's laser level; there is

11 Sarasota level.

12 Q. What is that; Sarasota?

13 A. It is just a name of a level.

14 Q. Oh, okay.

15 A. It was developed in Sarasota.

16 Q. Okay. How does it work? I assume a laser

17 works with --

18 A. You know what a laser is.

19 Q. Yes, I know what a laser is.

20 A. This does not work with a laser.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. This is two offset pieces of channel iron,

23 usually with a roller behind them, that leaves it

24 level.

25 Q. Oh, okay. I see. How do you determine

1 whether it needs to be leveled?

2 A. Knowledge.

3 Q. You look at it?

4 A. I've been farming my whole life.

5 Q. Is flooding ever used to determine whether

6 it needs to be leveled?

7 A. No. Not in my case.

8 Q. Not in your case. While the field is open

9 and things are disced in, do you do any canal

10 maintenance?

11 A. Just before we plant, we usually clean the

12 ditches; yeah.

13 Q. What does that involve? What does cleaning

14 the ditches involve?

15 A. Just bringing in a backhoe, or a drag line

16 with a clam shell bucket on it, and just taking the

17 sediment out of the ditches and pitching it out on

18 the land.

19 Q. What is the sediment that's in the ditches?

20 A. Dirt.

21 Q. Is it from the wall of the bank collapsing?

22 A. Just dirt. If you get heavy rainfall it

23 will run in there.

24 Q. Okay. The ditches out on sugar cane

25 property, are they combined drainage, as well as

1 irrigation ditches?

2 A. The same. One and the same.

3 Q. It is the same system?

4 A. One and the same.

5 Q. You irrigate by raising the water level in

6 the ditch, and you drain it by lowering it, and you

7 drain or raise it by seepage?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. The mole drain will drain it; that I

11 mentioned earlier. That's a subterranean tunnel.

12 Q. Okay. Is a mole drain -- how does -- what

13 does the device look like?

14 A. It is a different animal. My animal is an

15 athey traction; a single bullet. I'll drop this

16 bullet down in the ditch, and then I pull it through

17 the field --

18 Q. I see.

19 A. -- to about 36 to 42 inches below the

20 surface.

21 Q. Below the surface. And that leaves

22 essentially a tunnel underneath there?

23 A. There is a rat trail. Water comes down and

24 out.

25 Q. Why do you do it so deep?

1 A. If I don't, the equipment running over will

2 seal it.

3 Q. Do mole drains work in all kinds of soil?

4 A. If the soils are deep enough. I have some

5 soils I can't mole drain.

6 Q. Okay. How deep a soil do you need,

7 generally?

8 A. Probably 42 inches.

9 Q. What do you do on the soils that you can't

10 mole drain? Do you work on something else?

11 A. I either plow them or chisel them.

12 Q. What is chiseling?

13 A. Just that. Chisel. Drag a device through

14 there with different, you know, standards on them.

15 Q. And what does that do?

16 A. Just breaks up the soil.

17 Q. Oh, okay.

18 A. We have a lot of compaction in cane fields.

19 Q. From the equipment?

20 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

21 Q. Do you ever apply pesticides before you

22 plant?

23 A. Thimet at planting.

24 Q. How do you spell that?

25 A. T-h-i-m-e-t.

1 Q. What does that do?

2 A. Soil insects.

3 Q. Hematoids and things?

4 A. Not necessarily hematoids. You might get a

5 little bit of control, but not a whole lot. Most are

6 wire worms and insects.

7 Q. Okay. Do you apply fertilizer before you

8 plant?

9 A. At planting.

10 Q. At planting?

11 A. I band it in firm.

12 Q. How do you decide whether or not you need

13 to fertilize? Do you fertilize in every case?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Do you know whether it's standard practice

16 for growers generally to fertilize at planting, every

17 time?

18 A. I think it is, yes.

19 Q. Do you get any soil tests or anything to

20 tell you whether or not you need it, or is that just

21 a matter of experience?

22 A. Mine is mostly experience.

23 Q. You said you band it in at planting. Can

24 you explain what that means?

25 A. Okay. I have a furrow plow. I furrow

1 three rows at a time. Over each row I have a

2 fertilizer hopper.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And as I furrow, I plow the fertilizer in

5 the furrow.

6 Q. Okay. Do you do that at the same moment;

7 does the same device plant for you as it goes along?

8 A. No. We hand plant.

9 Q. Okay. Is the normal procedure, as far as

10 you know, in the EAA to apply fertilizer banded?

11 A. I think it is now.

12 Q. Is broadcast the other option?

13 A. Yeah, broadcast is the other option.

14 Q. Is broadcast essentially where it is just

15 sort of spread evenly over the surface of the land?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How is that normally done?

18 A. By truck.

19 Q. Why do most people band fertilize?

20 A. I don't know if most of them do.

21 Q. Okay. That's fine. I thought you said you

22 felt like it was probably standard practice now, and

23 I sort of made a lead. I don't want to

24 mischaracterize. You think most people do band

25 fertilize; do you have an idea as to why?

1 A. I think that is a BMP in today's standards.

2 Q. Did you band before the BMP came into

3 effect as a requirement?

4 A. I have always banded.

5 Q. Why have you always banded?

6 A. I think I get better utilization.

7 Q. You use less to get the same effect?

8 A. I don't know. I don't know what others

9 use.

10 Q. I mean, in your case, are you assuming that

11 you use less by banding it than if you broadcast it?

12 A. I think I get better utilization.

13 Q. I guess I don't know what you mean by that.

14 A. By fertilizing the plants.

15 Q. Okay. All right. That's fine. So is

16 there any other preparation you do on a fallow field

17 before you get to the actual planting?

18 A. Okay. I did the harrowing.

19 Q. Right.

20 A. I have done the mole draining where I

21 could.

22 Q. Right.

23 A. I have done leveling where I could.

24 Q. Right.

25 A. I go in and chisel even where I mole

1 drained and I break the soil up.

2 Q. Okay. How deep does that chisel go?

3 A. Probably two feet.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. I go over the field probably twice, two

6 different directions. It gives you a well prepared

7 seed bed there.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Then you furrow, plow my fertilizer in the

10 furrow, load my seed cane on a wagon, bring it to the

11 field, drop the seed piece in the furrow. Then I

12 come back with a covering rig, which will cover the

13 cane, and apply the thimet.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And that's it. I get out of the field and

16 start cultivating.

17 Q. You said you plant by hand. You do that

18 from the back of a truck?

19 A. Trailer.

20 Q. Back of a trailer?

21 A. Wagon; farm wagon.

22 Q. Somebody puts the seed cane, that you call

23 it, in the ground, and then you come back with a

24 mechanical thing that covers it up?

25 A. Uh-huh.

1 Q. What is seed cane?

2 A. It is just cane that you decide what field

3 you want to take your seed out of, variety.

4 Q. Is it actual seed?

5 A. No. In cane it is vegetated. The stock is

6 what you plant.

7 Q. Okay. So after you get it all planted and

8 covered and put the thimet on it, you say you get out

9 of the field. What happens to the crop next?

10 A. We start cultivating, I said.

11 Q. Okay. And what does that involve?

12 A. Well, in my case, I'll probably cultivate

13 mine heavier than most people. I have some tines

14 that go in the ground probably six inches deep, and

15 that keep my ground loosened up, air down the roots.

16 Sometimes I use herbicides to kill grass.

17 Q. How do you use the tines in the area that

18 you just planted without digging up what you just

19 planted?

20 A. Because I plant in rows.

21 Q. Right.

22 A. Five foot rows.

23 Q. You do that between the rows?

24 A. I straddle the row.

25 Q. Straddle the row?

1 A. So I am cultivating the middle on each side

2 of that row.

3 Q. Right. Why do you do that?

4 A. For weed control and to break that soil

5 surface up and the soil, to let air get to the root

6 system.

7 Q. Okay. And you said sometimes you use a

8 herbicide; is that what you said?

9 A. Yes, to kill weeds. Weeds and grass.

10 Q. Same? What herbicide do you use?

11 A. Evic would be one, Ashulox would be one,

12 Atrazine would be one, 24D would be one.

13 Q. Okay. How long does that go on in the life

14 of the crop?

15 A. Well, usually I'll plant as soon as I can

16 in August.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. And by November I'll be out of the field

19 and I'll have that field laid by, in our terms.

20 Q. I'm sorry. Out by when?

21 A. November.

22 Q. Why do you get out of the field then? Is

23 the cane grown up?

24 A. Laid by the field. I'm through with it.

25 Q. Okay. So you just let it grow at that

1 point?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. I back off and watch.

5 Q. Okay. Do you, during that process, apply

6 any more pesticides --

7 A. No.

8 Q. -- or fertilizers, or anything else?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. That crop will generally be harvested the

12 following March. I plant in August of this year, my

13 cane will be harvested in probably March of 1995. If

14 I plant this coming August, it will be March of 1995

15 when my crop will be harvested.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. My plant crop.

18 Q. Do the canals run through the field where

19 your cane is?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you need to maintain the canals during

22 the growth period where the field is laid by?

23 A. I can't get into them.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. I'm not supposed to volunteer stuff to you,

1 but I am going to volunteer this to you; I do put out

2 rat poison during that crop.

3 Q. I believe you are not the only person who

4 has been known to do that. Are rats a serious

5 problem?

6 A. At times.

7 Q. What kinds of problems do rats cause in the

8 field?

9 A. They just destroy the cane. They'll chew

10 the cane stock like a beaver cutting a tree.

11 Q. Do you put out rat poison as matter of

12 course or do you wait until you see some evidence of

13 damage before you get out there and do it?

14 A. No. We put it out usually heavy in the

15 fall.

16 Q. Is fall rat season?

17 A. You get a little sweetness in the cane and

18 then they show up.

19 Q. Yeah. Okay. So I guess if you're out of

20 it by November and the harvest is the following March --

21 A. Two March's.

22 Q. The following two March's?

23 A. That is on a plant field.

24 Q. I'm sorry?

25 A. That is on a plant field.

1 Q. What is that?

2 A. Just what we went through. That's a plant

3 field.

4 Q. Okay. A plant field. That means you

5 planted the crop instead of using last year's?

6 A. The first crop is called a plant crop.

7 Q. Great. Thank you.

8 How do you manage the water in the field

9 during the life of the cane, from the time you plant

10 it to the time you harvest it? Do you maintain the

11 water level at about the same place or do you raise

12 it and lower it, generally speaking, at certain phase

13 of the life of the cane? And this is a multiple,

14 compound question you are going to answer, but can

15 you give me a rundown on how you manage the water

16 levels in your fields from the time the cane is

17 planted?

18 THE WITNESS: Go ahead?

19 MR. GREEN: Sure. If you understand the

20 question.

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Right after I plant

22 it, I try to maintain a high water table until I

23 get it established -- get the root germinated

24 and get a root system started.

1 BY MR. KILLINGER:

2 Q. What do you mean by a high water table?

3 A. I try to bring it up where I have moisture

4 around the seed piece.

5 Q. So how far below the surface would that be?

6 A. Probably 12 inches. And then as the plant

7 gets established and gets it's roots, you know,

8 embedded in the soil real good, then I try to

9 maintain a constant water table -- that's what I like

10 to do --

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. -- 12 to 18 inches at the top of the

13 ground.

14 Q. Do you know whether that's a standard

15 practice for growers in the EAA; to try to maintain a

16 constant water table?

17 A. I have no idea.

18 Q. Okay. Do you know if there is a general

19 water table at which sugar cane is generally thought

20 to thrive?

21 A. None that I know of. I base mine on my

22 experience on my farm.

23 Q. How do you keep the water table at a

24 constant level?

25 A. Electric pump with a float switch on it.

1 Q. Okay. In the EAA, is having too much water

2 generally the problem? You need to pump water out of

3 the water table to keep it low, or do you often need

4 to put water into your fields?

5 A. In my case, I have to pump it out.

6 Q. Okay. What would happen to your fields, I

7 guess, if you didn't pump it at all; would they

8 flood?

9 A. The crop would drown.

10 Q. Okay. Would the water table come up over

11 the top of your land --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- or would it be so close it would damage

14 the root system?

15 A. My farm lies next to Hoover Dike. I have a

16 tremendous amount of seepage in there.

17 Q. Do you know whether other farms, generally

18 speaking, in the EAA, need to lower their water table

19 as opposed to rise it in their fields? They

20 generally have a problem with too much water?

21 A. Farming is not an exact science, so I can't

22 speak for those guys. I don't know really what they

23 do. And most of it is done by what we have

24 experienced.

25 Q. Okay.

1 A. My experience may be different than

2 somebody else's.

3 Q. That's fine. I just didn't know if there

4 was a standard that people generally use.

5 A. Not that I know of.

6 Q. You said you use float switches on electric

7 pumps. How do you determine where to set those float

8 switches?

9 A. Well, it's easy. If I want to keep it 12

10 or 18 inches, I just move a little adjusting collar

11 on a shaft; on a steel shaft.

12 Q. It is in one of your canals?

13 A. Yeah, it floats in the canal. And when

14 water comes up, it turns the pump on, and when it

15 gets down a way, that float will pull that shaft

16 down. And when it gets there, it will trip the

17 switch off.

18 Q. Right. Can you turn the pumps on or off

19 manually?

20 A. Yes, in storm events.

21 Q. Okay. Is that an anticipatory pumping; if

22 you see it is going to rain a lot or the forecast is

23 bad, you drop down, anticipating that?

24 A. That has been one of my practices in the

25 past.

1 Q. I didn't know if the pumps were capable of

2 keeping up with atmospheric pressure. That's really

3 what I am trying to find out. Do you normally need

4 to pump ahead of time if you anticipate a storm

5 event?

6 A. Depending on the event.

7 Q. Okay. I believe you said you grew

8 vegetables before sugar cane. How did you manage the

9 water table when were you growing vegetables?

10 A. It's been so long ago -- 20 years ago now --

11 since I was in it. It's probably the same basis.

12 Just you know plants that can tolerate more water

13 than others and you just keep moisture that you know

14 is enough in the soil to produce a crop.

15 Q. Just based on experience?

16 A. Based on experience.

17 Q. Different crops require different water

18 tables; essentially?

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. Do you have the same water table management

21 on your cattle land?

22 A. The cattle land; I just depend on the good

23 Lord to irrigate me there.

24 Q. But you don't need to pump water away from

25 the land?

1 A. No, not away from it; no.

2 Q. Okay. Is the water depth that a farmer

3 would maintain in his field, generally, is it

4 affected by the type of soil or the depth of the soil

5 that he has got on his farm?

6 A. I don't know whether it would be so much to

7 the depth. Type -- it could be a little bit

8 different.

9 Q. Okay. Can you elaborate on that a little

10 bit for me?

11 A. Not really. Just we have different soil

12 types, and even within the organic soil we have

13 different soil types and sand, which we don't have in

14 our part of the EAA, although I do have some marl

15 land, and it has a tendency to be a little bit dry.

16 Q. It drains better?

17 A. No, I don't think it drains any better

18 because it is basically the silt that ran off the

19 dike when they were building the dike.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. It overflowed organic soils, and it is

22 very, very fine. And if we get an inch of rain

23 there, it will stop us harvesting. We are on muck

24 lands, where it would go on through it. You could

25 probably keep going; but in my case, it gets real

1 slick.

2 Q. Do you ever change the location of your

3 drainage and irrigation canals?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How did you determine how to space them and

6 how they are laid out on your property?

7 A. Well, that's the way it was.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. My dad laid them out in some cases and the

10 other people laid them out in other cases.

11 Q. All right. Do you use sight gauges in your

12 property, on your land, to determine the water level?

13 A. Sight gauges for water, no.

14 Q. Do you know of farmers who do?

15 A. I have heard the Soil Conservation Service

16 put some sight gauges out. I don't know who might

17 have them.

18 Q. Can you explain to me what a sight gauge

19 is?

20 A. What I understand is it's just a piece of

21 PVC pipe with a floating stick in it that's colored

22 red or green or something like that.

23 Q. So when they say sight gauge, that means

24 s-i-g-h-t; you look at it and tell?

25 A. Uh-huh.

1 Q. Where does most of the water that you

2 usually pump away from your crops come from?

3 A. Rainfall and seepage.

4 Q. Rainfall and seepage. Would that be

5 seepage under the dike from Lake Okeechobee?

6 A. Yes, or from the canals, and District

7 canals.

8 Q. And where does the water go when you pump

9 it away?

10 A. Into the Works of the District.

11 Q. Do you know where it goes once it gets into

12 Works of the District?

13 A. Depends on where they pump it.

14 Q. Does it generally go north or south?

15 A. Depends on where they want to pump it. If

16 they want to backpump into the lake, it will go west

17 and north, from my property; if they pump it to the

18 south, it will head out to Hillsboro Canal, which

19 runs east, then turns south, and then North New River

20 would go directly south.

21 Q. Do you know whether the District often

22 pumps north or south?

23 A. Only in certain events will they pump into

24 the lake.

25 Q. Do you know what those events are?

1 A. I guess when their criteria dictate they

2 pump.

3 Q. Do you know what those criteria are?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Has the water always gone the same

6 direction from your property? Did it formerly go

7 primarily north into the lake?

8 A. At one time I'd say it went toward the

9 lake, yeah.

10 Q. Do you know about when that stopped?

11 A. When they stopped backpumping as a general

12 practice.

13 Q. Do you know when that happened?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was it in connection with the IAP?

16 A. The IAP is exactly when it was. Whenever

17 that was.

18 Q. Okay. Can you explain to me how the IAP

19 developed? Do you know when it was put in?

20 A. I don't know when it was put in.

21 Q. Do you know the reasons for its

22 development?

23 A. Other than to divert water away from the

24 lake.

25 Q. Do you know why they wanted to divert water

1 away from the lake?

2 A. Only reason I know, they said we were

3 putting too much phosphorus in the lake when they

4 backpumped.

5 Q. Who is "they"?

6 A. "They" in that case -- I don't know. I

7 don't think the Water Management District. I think

8 it was other than the Water Management District.

9 Q. Do you know if it was the Department of

10 Environmental Regulation? Do you think it was

11 environmental groups, the United States?

12 A. Combination of all those. United States

13 probably wasn't into it, but all of the others.

14 Q. So you think it was -- you would feel

15 comfortable with the year of 1978 for the IAP,

16 approximately?

17 MR. GREEN: Objection. He's already

18 testified he didn't recall when it was.

19 MR. KILLINGER: I am trying to refresh his

20 recollection.

21 BY MR. KILLINGER:

22 Q. Would that help you?

23 A. No, that wouldn't help me at all. The

24 public records should show when it was.

25 Q. I am just trying to let you --

1 A. Is that when it was?

2 Q. That's my understanding. I just wanted to

3 let you tie it into other events should it come up.

4 I just didn't want to assure you of a particular date

5 and have that be incorrect in your recollection.

6 Do you think it was implemented to reduce

7 phosphorus inflow into the lake; is that correct?

8 A. That was my understanding.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know what the contributing

10 factors to the phosphorus in the water that

11 eventually wound up in the lake are considered to be?

12 Did they claim it came from the agricultural runoff?

13 A. Well, it had to. They had to say it came

14 from runoff. Now, I don't know whether it was just

15 agriculture runoff, urban runoff, or all runoff. It

16 should have been all runoff.

17 Q. Okay. Do you know whether -- did you have

18 any feeling about the IAP at the time, whether it was

19 a good idea or a bad idea?

20 A. I thought it was a bad idea.

21 Q. Why is that?

22 A. Water supply.

23 Q. Okay. What effect do you think it had on

24 the water supply or what did you think?

25 A. It reduced the water supply to all of South

1 Florida.

2 Q. How did it do that?

3 A. By pumping the water out to tide.

4 Q. So it put water in the canals that

5 eventually went out into the ocean?

6 A. Tide water.

7 Q. As opposed to being retained in Lake

8 Okeechobee?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Did the level of Lake Okeechobee drop as a

11 result?

12 A. I wouldn't say it exactly dropped. It had

13 an effect on the level of Lake Okeechobee.

14 Q. Do you know what effect?

15 A. Rainfall affects Lake Okeechobee. The

16 pumping has very little effect on Lake Okeechobee.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Rainfall and inflows. I should put it that

19 way.

20 Q. Well, what effect do you think it had on

21 the level of Lake Okeechobee? Just whatever?

22 A. It had to be a negative effect.

23 Q. Because the water simply wasn't going where

24 it was going before?

25 A. Wasn't going where it should be stored.

1 Q. Okay. At the time, do you recall agreeing

2 or disagreeing with the perceived problem that was

3 used as a justification for pumping the water south?

4 A. Did I agree with the perceived problem?

5 Q. Yes. Did you agree at the time there was a

6 problem with Okeechobee and that therefore something

7 needed to be done?

8 A. No, there wasn't a problem with Lake

9 Okeechobee.

10 Q. Do you know what the problem was asserted

11 as being?

12 A. Algae blooms.

13 Q. Well, what was the perceived problem with

14 Okeechobee that justified the IAP?

15 MR. GREEN: Well, I guess I'll object to

16 the form. When you say "justified", are you

17 asking this witness whether he believes it was

18 justified or --

19 MR. KILLINGER: I'll rephrase it if you

20 need it rephrased.

21 MR. GREEN: Please do.

22 BY MR. KILLINGER:

23 Q. Okay. What was the perceived problem with

24 Lake Okeechobee which was used as the reason for

25 implementing the IAP?

1 A. The perceived problem was nutrients going

2 into the lake.

3 Q. And what problem would the nutrients cause?

4 I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

5 MR. GREEN: I know you are trying to move

6 this along.

7 BY MR. KILLINGER:

8 Q. I'll let you finish. I'm sorry.

9 A. But the nutrients going into lake was a

10 perceived problem. The other perceived problem was

11 that these nutrients were causing algae blooms in the

12 lake and the other perceived problem was that Lake

13 Okeechobee was going to go belly up in the next year

14 or two. Those were all perceived problems.

15 Q. Okay. Do you know who was making the

16 predictions?

17 A. Most of them that I knew anything about was

18 coming from environmental organizations.

19 Q. Okay. Do you recall which ones?

20 A. FADE is one of them.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Wayne Nelson's group. I think Audubon was

23 making some of them. The fellow who -- I can't

24 recall -- that lived on the north end of the lake,

25 Scott Driver was his name -- dead and gone now -- was

1 another one.

2 Q. Did the sugar industry have any scientists

3 review the situation with the lake and analyze

4 whether the science was correct?

5 MR. GREEN: Object to the form.

6 Go ahead.

7 THE WITNESS: Go ahead and answer?

8 MR. GREEN: Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: The League did do a lot of

10 studies, and one of them was a study of the

11 lake.

12 BY MR. KILLINGER:

13 Q. Do you know who the League had do the

14 study?

15 A. Earl Shannon, I believe.

16 Q. Earl Shannon. Did Dr. Shannon conclude

17 that phosphorus was a problem for Lake Okeechobee?

18 A. It was controlling nutrients.

19 Q. It was? Phosphorus is controlling

20 nutrients?

21 A. I think that's what his findings will show.

22 Q. By controlling nutrients, do you mean --

23 have you ever heard the term "limiting nutrients"?

24 A. I have heard the term but controlling,

25 limiting, it might be the same thing.

1 Q. Why don't you explain what you think of --

2 A. By controlling nutrients, my perception or

3 my idea, in my eyes, is the way we can control this

4 element.

5 Q. I see. So it is a nutrient that's subject

6 to being controlled. Okay. How could it be

7 controlled?

8 A. Well, the way you apply it to the land,

9 diverting water other places.

10 Q. So the way you apply it to the land, Fritz,

11 would that be through some sort of a best management

12 practice; like banding fertilizer?

13 A. Sure. Banding versus --

14 Q. Versus broadcast?

15 A. Versus broadcast.

16 Q. How would diversion control it?

17 A. You would shift the problem.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. You don't do away with it, you just shift

20 it.

21 Q. Okay. Well, they diverted the water. The

22 water is now being diverted south rather than north,

23 and not into Lake Okeechobee. Do you know whether

24 any treatment of that water is being performed now

25 that was not being performed back then?

1 MR. GREEN: Object to the form.

2 You may answer.

3 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.

4 BY MR. KILLINGER:

5 Q. Okay. Does the water that formerly flowed

6 north into Okeechobee and now which flows south, does

7 all or part of that wind up in the water conservation

8 areas and eventually Everglades National Park?

9 MR. GREEN: Object to form.

10 Go ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: The water does.

12 BY MR. KILLINGER:

13 Q. Okay. So when you said that if you divert

14 the water, you shift the problem elsewhere, do you

15 think it is a possibility that the water is causing a

16 problem in the area to where it is being diverted

17 now?

18 MR. GREEN: Object to the form.

19 You may answer when I do that. That's a

20 legalism.

21 THE WITNESS: Okay. The question again?

22 (Thereupon, a portion of the record

23 was read by the reporter.)

24 THE WITNESS: No.

1 BY MR. KILLINGER:

2 Q. Okay. Then how can I reconcile what you

3 said a moment ago -- about shifting the water and

4 diverting it doesn't solve the problem, it just moves

5 it someplace else -- with what you just told me?

6 A. I never said there was a problem to start

7 with.

8 Q. Okay. Why do you think that diversion of

9 the water can shift the problem someplace else?

10 A. It can carry. If you have a problem, it

11 can move it to a different area.

12 Q. Okay. Is it your opinion that the water

13 which is being diverted to the south is not causing

14 any problems?

15 A. There has been no scientific evidence to

16 show it has.

17 Q. Okay. There we go. When we use the

18 phrase, or the word "problem" that might be caused by

19 water, how would you define the word "problem"? Can

20 you define for me what you would consider to be a

21 problem?

22 A. I don't understand your question.

23 Q. Okay. If waters flowing into the water

24 conservation areas, for instance, was causing a shift

25 in the species from their native species to other

1 species, causing a change to the ecosystem, would you

2 consider that to be a problem?

3 MR. GREEN: Object to form.

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 BY MR. KILLINGER:

6 Q. Okay. Why not?

7 A. Again, there is no scientific proof to show

8 this has happened. See, my opinions are the change

9 is probably due more to hydroperiod than it is to

10 nutrients.

11 Q. Okay. Do you think any changes are

12 occurring to the south, where the agricultural water

13 is being received?

14 MR. GREEN: Object to form.

15 THE WITNESS: There is no doubt there is

16 changes to the south.

17 BY MR. KILLINGER:

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. But I do not think that they have anything

20 to do with nutrients.

21 Q. Okay. That's fine. Can you tell me what

22 changes you're aware of that are occurring to the

23 south?

24 MR. GREEN: Changes to what? That's why I

25 am objecting. I mean, if you could be more

1 specific -- that's why I am objecting to form.

2 I am really not trying to be disruptive.

3 MR. KILLINGER: I recognize that.

4 MR. GREEN: You're welcome to answer, if

5 you wish.

6 BY MR. KILLINGER:

7 Q. You said there is no doubt that changes are

8 occurring to the south.

9 A. Change is going to happen every day.

10 Nothing you or I can do about changes. They are

11 going to happen. Every day there's changes in

12 everything.

13 Q. I can appreciate that. Can you tell me

14 what sort of changes you are aware of that are

15 occurring down south?

16 A. South is a long ways.

17 Q. Okay. Well --

18 A. Conservation Area 1, Area 2, Area 3?

19 Q. You used the phrase "down south". Why

20 don't we just go through it. What do you know that's

21 changed in Water Conservation Area 1?

22 A. The only thing I know that's changed in

23 Conservation Area 1 is places where man has disturbed

24 the soil and there has been a growth of cattails in

25 those areas along the western boundary.

1 Q. Okay. Now, you say, "in places where man

2 has disturbed the soil". Is that the same thing as

3 saying hydroperiod is the problem?

4 A. It could be related to it.

5 Q. Okay. What do you mean by "man has

6 disturbed the soil"? How has man disturbed the soil

7 along the eastern edge of Area 1?

8 A. Okay. I think history will show that the

9 dike on the eastern area, western dike on

10 Conservation Area 1, was dredged with a hydraulic

11 dredging.

12 Q. Meaning? Can you explain what a hydraulic

13 dredge is?

14 A. One of those that has a boom that goes down

15 with an auger on it. First thing, they went in there

16 on that sawgrass and they ran down what we refer to

17 as a right-of-way, okay, where they are going to

18 build that levee, where they were going to take the

19 spoils from, and had an area to the east of that that

20 they ran down also. And I think it is evident out

21 there, if you go and look, where there was a little

22 toe levee out in the Conservation Area 1.

23 Q. A toe levee?

24 A. Yeah. T-o-e. I guess that's close enough.

25 Q. Do you know about when this occurred?

1 A. When the project was in construction.

2 Probably in the 50's.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. But anyway, that dredge operates with

5 anchors and cables. In other words, you take an

6 anchor out here, and the cable runs back to that

7 dredge, and that allows that dredge to pull it like

8 this, as it is pumping, building the levee. When men

9 went in, they ran that down with a chopper; that

10 entire right-of-way.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Choppers are drums with blades on it. They

13 disturbed it at that point. And when those cables

14 were in there, when they were anchoring it and

15 pulling it back in, they were doing a lot of damage

16 to the soil.

17 Q. So it is your assertion that when,

18 essentially, WCA1 was constructed, when the levee

19 around the western side of it was constructed, that

20 the soil disturbance at that time is what has led to

21 the present changes with the invasion of cattails in

22 the area?

23 A. With the invasion of cattails, yes.

24 Q. Yes. Okay. Is hydroperiod also a factor?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Does that enter into --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How does that affect the stability of the

4 cattails in Conservation Area 1?

5 A. Cattail is an opportunistic plant. When

6 everything gets right, the seed will be there, and it

7 will germinate. A cattail is a, you know, a very

8 light seed, and when it lets the seed loose, the wind

9 determines where it is going to take it, and it is

10 going to either fall in water or it is going to fall

11 in -- it's going to fall in something. And if it

12 finds a place it likes, it will germinate and expand

13 from that.

14 Q. Do you know what kind of conditions

15 cattails like?

16 A. I really don't. You know, I find them in a

17 lot of places. I found them on sand that had no

18 phosphorus, no nitrogen, no nothing, and here he is

19 growing. I think he found enough moisture there and

20 he liked it.

21 Q. Do you know whether cattails usually

22 propagate by seed or whether they are rhizomatic?

23 A. I really don't know much about that part of

24 the cattail. The cattail, in looking at it, I think

25 it probably could shoot up blossoms as well as from

1 seed, but then I'm not positive. I'm not a cattail

2 grower.

3 Q. Do you know how hydroperiod is different in

4 WCA1 now from what the hydroperiod was back when the

5 project was constructed and between and since that

6 date?

7 A. It is higher now. I'd say it is maintained

8 at a higher level now.

9 Q. Higher now than when they constructed it?

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. Has it been consistently that way since

12 they constructed it, to your knowledge?

13 A. I think only in periods of time when they

14 didn't have water drought.

15 Q. During periods of extreme drought?

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Why would that be?

18 A. Vary.

19 Q. Why would it dry up?

20 A. If there is no water.

21 Q. Okay. What are the sources of water that

22 go into WCA1, as far you know?

23 A. A few pump station situations, S5, S1, and

24 then there is, I think, some on the -- well, at one

25 time there was some on the west side, but I think

1 those have been taken out, and some on the east side.

2 I don't know how many inflows are on the east side.

3 Q. I am assuming you're including rain.

4 A. Rain is one. Yeah, rain is one. But then

5 the pumps also contribute.

6 Q. Can you think of any other man-induced

7 changes to WCA1 which might be causing the changes

8 you discussed?

9 A. Man induced digging that canal, and seems

10 like the water from S-5A has a tendency to flow in

11 the canals rather than across the conservation area.

12 It would have been better to have designed it where

13 it was sheet flow across there rather than channel

14 flow.

15 Q. What do you think the dredging of that

16 canal and the way it was done -- how do you think

17 that disturbance to the soil -- made it more suitable

18 for cattails?

19 A. Knocked the sawgrass down.

20 Q. And the fact of just knocking the sawgrass

21 down allowed the cattails to colonize?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So are you saying the cattails have been in

24 their present location essentially since shortly

25 after the levee was built around the west side of

1 Water Conservation Area 1?

2 A. No, I think there were cattails when they

3 built it. Cattails have been part of this whole

4 Everglades.

5 Q. I recognize that. But have they been at

6 the locations where they are now in the density and

7 concentrations?

8 A. No, they are more dense now than they were.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know if that's a recent

10 occurrence?

11 A. I don't think it is a recent occurrence.

12 It's been over time.

13 Q. Do you think they have just been growing

14 since the thing?

15 A. Growing and expanding since they put the

16 project in place.

17 Q. Since they put the levee around WCA1, do

18 you know whether the level of nutrients in the water

19 that's being run, for instance, through the S5 pump

20 station have increased?

21 A. No, I don't know.

22 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any changes in

23 Water Conservation Area 2 -- or 2A I guess we could

24 start with?

25 A. There used to be a lot of tree islands in

1 there, and I think they flooded those out and killed

2 them; "they" being the District; Water Management

3 District. Then they took it extremely low and I

4 think this is where you got your cattails.

5 Q. So, originally it was flooded out deeper

6 than it was used to and then it got dryer?

7 A. It was deeper than normal, yeah.

8 Q. Do you know about what time period that

9 occurred in?

10 A. No, I don't. No, I don't. Since the

11 '50's.

12 Q. Okay. What do you think the ultimate

13 result of that has been?

14 A. The result of lowering and raising the

15 water and lowering it?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I think you have a whole lot of change in

18 the growth in that area.

19 Q. Okay. Did that result in the establishment

20 of a cattail community there?

21 A. I'd say the hydroperiod did, on the ends.

22 Cattails are always on the high end of the

23 conservation area.

24 Q. What do you mean by high end?

25 A. The elevation is higher -- the soil is

1 higher on the north end than it is the south end.

2 Q. So the water would be shallower?

3 A. There would be either no water on it or it

4 would be very shallow. It would give a cattail a

5 good place to take hold and grow.

6 Q. Cattails don't like deeper water?

7 A. It depends. If they are caught out there,

8 as long as they keep their head above water, they'll

9 like it. If he could get his head above the water,

10 he will stay there, just like a rice plant will.

11 Q. Do you know of any disturbances to the soil

12 in 2A that are analogous to the disturbances that you

13 were discussing in 1?

14 A. Yes. On any of the canals, any of the

15 canals and levees, that same would apply. They ran

16 down those right-of-ways and got them prepared to put

17 the levees in place. Same is true in 3.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Miami Canal, which is disturbance, you'll

20 find them on the spoils, spoil banks and things like

21 that. You'll find them in trails; half track trails.

22 In the Holey Land you'll find them where the soil has

23 been disturbed.

24 Q. Do you know of any specific locations in

25 the Holey Land where the soils have been disturbed

1 where you can find them?

2 A. Most of those craters.

3 Q. What do you mean by "craters"?

4 A. Used to be a bombing range out there.

5 Q. Just wanted to make sure it was clear.

6 (Discussion held off the record.)

7 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)

8 BY MR. KILLINGER:

9 Q. Before we took a break, you said that the

10 same conditions that were leading to problems in

11 Water Conservation Area 2 were the same in 3. By

12 that statement do you mean that the water levels in

13 three are deeper now than they were historically or

14 prior to the creation of the WCAs?

15 A. No, I think what I alluded to there was the

16 disturbance by man --

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. -- and cattails, and I think we were

19 talking about the bomb craters in the Holey Land

20 having cattails around.

21 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, has any research

22 been done in or around the areas you are referring

23 to, like the bomb craters in the Holey Land and

24 cattails that are there?

25 A. Not to my knowledge, no. I just observed

1 it. My observations.

2 Q. Are you aware of any changes that are

3 occurring in Everglades National Park?

4 MR. GREEN: Object to the form.

5 THE WITNESS: No.

6 BY MR. KILLINGER:

7 Q. We have been discussing the disturbance by

8 man, and alteration of the hydroperiod has, in your

9 opinion, I think, led to intrusion of cattails in

10 WCA1, 2 and 3. Do you think that the level of

11 phosphorus in the water which is flowing into those

12 areas has any effect on that change?

13 A. I don't think it would have any effect, no.

14 I think because the disturbance is when you have the

15 cattails there. I don't think nutrients had anything

16 to do with it.

17 Q. Okay. You think the nutrients just simply

18 were not a factor in whether or not the cattails got

19 established or grew faster than they normally would

20 have?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Are you aware of any research results or

23 data or ongoing research which supports the

24 conclusion that nutrients play no role in the changes

25 being observed in the water conservation areas?

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Are you aware of any research being

3 performed in the water conservation areas or the Park

4 by anyone right now?

5 A. Dr. Richardson, I think, is doing some

6 research in Conservation Area 2.

7 Q. Do you know what research Dr. Richardson is

8 doing?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. When you say you don't know what research

11 he's doing, do you mean you don't know the specifics

12 of it or do you know the general areas of research he

13 is working on?

14 A. I know he's out there working, and I have

15 seen periodic reports to the Environmental Protection

16 District.

17 Q. Okay. Do you recall when you have seen

18 reports to the EPD?

19 A. I attended their last meeting, and he was

20 supposed to have been there and they were supposed to

21 have a report, but he wasn't there and neither was

22 the report.

23 Q. When was that?

24 A. The last Friday of the month. A week ago

25 last Friday.

1 Q. Do you recall reviewing or hearing about

2 the results of any EPD reports prior to that date

3 from Dr. Richardson?

4 A. Any final product?

5 Q. No. Any interim reports, any reports to

6 the EPD?

7 A. I have heard of them, yeah.

8 Q. Do you recall what the results were?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know, generally, what

11 Dr. Richardson's research is designed to investigate?

12 A. I assume it is cause and effect.

13 Q. Why do you assume it is cause and effect?

14 A. I visited the site before, and that's the

15 way I interpreted what he was trying to do, which I

16 don't understand all this scientific lingo, but --

17 Q. Well, do you know whether his cause and

18 effect research involves different factors, such as

19 hydroperiod and phosphorus or, whether it is focused

20 on a single factor?

21 A. I would assume it is going to include

22 hydroperiod.

23 Q. Do you assume it includes phosphorus levels

24 at different concentrations?

25 A. Yeah, I would assume that.

1 Q. Do you know who is funding his research?

2 A. The EPD.

3 Q. Do you know where the EPD derives its

4 money?

5 A. Tax.

6 Q. What is the EPD?

7 A. Everglades Agricultural Area Environmental

8 Protection District.

9 Q. Who are its members?

10 A. Board members or taxpayers? The taxpayers

11 of the EAA.

12 Q. Who are its board members?

13 A. Arthur Kerstein, David Beardsley, Wayne

14 Brownie, John Schlechter, and Robert Buker.

15 Q. And the EPD is funding research with

16 Dr. Richardson?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know how long they have been funding

19 research with Dr. Richardson?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Do you know if anyone else is funding

22 Dr. Richardson?

23 A. Not that I know of.

24 Q. Do you know how long Dr. Richardson's study

25 regime will be? Do you know how long he's intending

1 to study?

2 A. I had heard originally it was five years.

3 Q. But I think you told me you weren't sure

4 when it started.