STATE OF FLORIDA
DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
CASE NOS. 92-3038
92-3039
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE 92-3040
OF FLORIDA, a Florida agricultural
cooperative marketing association,
ROTH FARMS, INC., and WEDGWORTH
FARMS, INC.,
-and-
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.,
and UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION,
-and-
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE VOLUME I
ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, Page 1 through 149
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and
HUNDLEY FARMS, INC.,
Petitioners,
vs.
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT, an agency of the State
of Florida,
Respondent,
MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF
FLORIDA, THE UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA, and the FLORIDA
DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION, the FLORIDA WILDLIFE
FEDERATION, the FLORIDA AUDUBON
SOCIETY, and the SIERRA CLUB,
Intervenors.
_______________________________/
DEPOSITION OF: EARL SHANNON, Ph.D.
TAKEN AT THE INSTANCE OF Attorneys for United States
DATE: March 3, 1994
TIME: Commenced at 9:00 a.m.
Adjourned at 4:00 p.m.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 Salem Court
Tallahassee, Florida 32301
(904) 878-2221
(800) 934-9090
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
2
LOCATION: 315 South Calhoun Street
4th Floor
Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: Carolyn L. Rankine
Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at
Large
* * *
APPEARANCES:
REPRESENTING THE PETITIONERS
SUGAR, ROTH & WEDGWORTH:
GARY PERKO, ESQUIRE
Hopping Boyd Green & Sams
123 South Calhoun Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32301
REPRESENTING THE INTERVENOR UNITED STATES:
SUZAN H. PONZOLI, ESQUIRE, and
LISA HOGAN, ESQUIRE
Assistant United States Attorneys
Southern District of Florida
99 Northeast 4th Street, 3rd Floor
Miami, Florida 33132
REPRESENTING THE INTERVENOR DEP:
DONNA LAPLANTE, ESQUIRE, and
ED STEINMEYER, ESQUIRE
Department of Environmental Protection
2600 Blair Stone Road
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400
ALSO PRESENT:
RONALD D. JONES, Ph.D.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
3
I N D E X
WITNESS PAGE
EARL SHANNON, Ph.D.
Direct Examination by Ms. Ponzoli 4
EXHIBITS:
Number
1 Notice of deposition, duces tecum 14
2 Letter dated February 9, 1994 14
3 1993 SFWMD monitoring data 97
4 Proposal for microfiltration pilot 106
5 Result report on pilot microfiltration 106
6 Concept design - Flor-Ag site 106
7 Technical memo 106
8 Proposal for pilot - Flor-Ag site 106
9 Sign-up sheet for April 29 meeting 108
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
4
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 The following deposition of
3 EARL SHANNON, Ph.D., was taken on oral examination,
4 pursuant to notice, for purposes of discovery, and for
5 use as evidence, and for other uses and purposes as may
6 be permitted by the applicable and governing rules.
7 Reading and signing is not waived.
8 * * *
9 Thereupon,
10 EARL SHANNON, Ph.D.,
11 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn,
12 was examined and testified as follows:
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. PONZOLI:
15 Q Dr. Shannon, I'm Suzan Ponzoli and I represent
16 the United States in these proceedings. And I'll be
17 taking your deposition in order to determine what your
18 testimony is expected to be in the DOAH proceeding.
19 I assume you've had your deposition taken
20 before, is that accurate?
21 A Yes, two or three times.
22 Q Is that precise or has it been more than two or
23 three times?
24 A It's probably somewhere in the order of five
25 times.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
5
1 Q Have you testified on behalf of the cooperative
2 in court before, Dr. Shannon?
3 A No; I haven't.
4 Q And in whose behalf have you testified those
5 five times?
6 A Some of these were a while ago, but I believe
7 the one situation was Beardsley Farms.
8 Q Was that a 120 DOAH hearing also?
9 A I'm not sure.
10 Q Was it in state court?
11 A I'm not sure of that either.
12 Q How long ago was it?
13 A It was probably around '77, '78, in there
14 somewhere.
15 Q And the issue at that time?
16 A Was water quality standards in canals. At
17 least that's what I was speaking to.
18 Q Right. And the precise issue about the water
19 quality standards was what?
20 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
21 Q You can answer.
22 A Could you ask the question again.
23 Q What was the precise issue regarding the water
24 quality standards in that case?
25 A To the best of my recollection -- and I haven't
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
6
1 reviewed my testimony in that particular situation -- I
2 was commenting on the classification proposed for the
3 canals which I believe was Class III Waters, and that the
4 canals could not meet those -- some of those standards
5 consistently, particularly, dissolved oxygen.
6 Q How about phosphorus or other nutrients, did
7 you comment on their ability to meet --
8 A May have commented on those, but there was no
9 particular standards for nutrients, numerical standards,
10 so I think it was mainly focused on dissolved oxygen.
11 Q And the other times you've testified,
12 Dr. Shannon?
13 A I appeared as a witness in the -- involving the
14 Deseret Ranch. And, again, that would have been around
15 1978.
16 Q And in the Deseret case, what was the heart of
17 your testimony?
18 A We collected some water quality samples in the
19 ranch and compared our results to the water quality
20 standards.
21 Q That the state had in place?
22 A Yes.
23 Q That involved nutrients, though, did it not?
24 A I believe we included nitrogen and phosphorus
25 in our monitoring program and made comments on the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
7
1 relevance of that information. And, again, I haven't
2 reviewed the court records of my testimony there.
3 Q Were both of these through CH2M Hill?
4 A Yes. I was with CH2M Hill at the time,
5 although it may still have been called Black Crow &
6 Eidsness, which was a predecessor company acquired by
7 CH2M Hill in 1978.
8 Q Black, Crow, and what was that other?
9 A Eidsness, E-I-D-S-N-E-S-S.
10 Q And your other testimony. I guess that's about
11 three of them. Dr. Shannon, the other times you've
12 testified was when?
13 A The other times I've testified were in Ontario,
14 Province of Ontario, as an expert witness. Two of them
15 related to -- two related to a hearing, and an appeal
16 hearing on a water quality issue, and the third one was
17 on a water quality issue.
18 Q Were these, again, nutrient water quality
19 issues?
20 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
21 A Nutrients were involved in both situations.
22 Q Nitrogen and phosphorus?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And what type of party -- on whose behalf were
25 you testifying?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
8
1 A In the first -- well, actually in both cases
2 our client was Maple Leaf Foods.
3 Q Were they processing something that discharged
4 into a water stream?
5 A Yes, in one situation. The first situation
6 that I referred to. It was a discharge of a treated
7 effluent to a receiving stream.
8 Q Now, Dr. Shannon, as you will recall from those
9 times, if you don't understand my question, which you've
10 already demonstrated, if you don't, you let me know, and
11 I'll try to rephrase it so that it is understood.
12 Because the record is to reflect that if you answer my
13 question, it's presumed you understood it and that's your
14 answer. I'm sure you've been advised of all of that.
15 A Yes.
16 Q You received a notice of taking deposition,
17 duces tecum, in association with this deposition, did you
18 not?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q I'd like to just briefly go through that and
21 make sure that --
22 A Do you have a copy of that?
23 Q Yes, sir, I do. I certainly do.
24 A Okay.
25 Q That you believe that you responded to all of
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
9
1 our requests. I'm just going to call out the categories,
2 Dr. Shannon, without reading them into the record so we
3 can go faster. Your CV, I believe Mr. Perko has
4 indicated will be sent on over. I, supposedly, had
5 received one earlier with your designation, but I don't
6 have it, so he's going to send a new one over. Is that
7 CV that will be coming an updated one?
8 A The CV is relevant to '93. I haven't updated
9 it for '94, but there would be very little change in it.
10 Q Second category. Would you just look at that
11 and make sure that you have produced all documents that
12 I've requested?
13 A Item B?
14 Q I'm on page 7. Documents include all
15 documents, and your attorney went over that with you, did
16 he not?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Category 2.
19 A The question is?
20 Q Have you produced all documents.
21 A Yes, I have.
22 Q You've produced a list of your technical
23 publications?
24 A I don't believe we did develop a list, but we
25 provided the publications, reports, articles, and
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
10
1 anything that we thought was relevant. We also included
2 a list of primarily documents that had been distributed
3 at SAGE meetings that I referred to in some of my work.
4 Q Let me just show you a letter and make sure
5 that is in fact that list. This is a letter of February
6 the 9th from Bill Green signed by his secretary. If
7 you'd look at the list on the second and third page.
8 A This is the list that I referred to that was a
9 list of other documents that we had in our files, but
10 they were available publicly.
11 Q Category 3. You responded to 3 as your
12 response to 2, is that accurate?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Number 4. Have you responded to number 4?
15 A Yes, I have.
16 Q Did you withhold any documents in category 4?
17 A No.
18 Q Have you withheld documents from your
19 production, Dr. Shannon?
20 A Not to my knowledge. We gave you everything we
21 had in our file.
22 MR. PERKO: Counsel, I'll provide a privilege
23 list after lunch break. There are some documents.
24 It's mainly correspondence from counsel.
25 Q And then category 5.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
11
1 A Category 5. I believe we've provided
2 everything requested there except for maybe some
3 photographs that were taken from the microfiltration
4 studies that we did. I would have to check to see
5 whether we provided those photographs or not.
6 Q Are you able to provide those photographs while
7 we're here these two days?
8 A We could -- I could call the office and request
9 that they courier down, and we may get them tomorrow.
10 It's not guaranteed.
11 Q These are photographs of how the
12 microfiltration works and what it looks like?
13 A Really, they're photographs of the site, the
14 equipment setup, pictures of the microfiltration unit
15 itself. Some of the photographs are included in the
16 report, or the technical memorandum that we prepared on
17 the microfiltration.
18 Q If you have them couriered down, is that like
19 Federal Express or something?
20 MS. PONZOLI: Would you have a problem with
21 that, Mr. Perko?
22 MR. PERKO: No.
23 MS. PONZOLI: It might help me to understand
24 it, if you could. When we take a break this
25 morning, if you could call and ask them if they
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
12
1 would Fed Ex them down.
2 BY MS. PONZOLI:
3 Q Do you have any idea if you intend to use those
4 at the time of trial, Dr. Shannon to explain to the court
5 how the microfiltration would work?
6 A If we did use any photographs, they would be
7 the same photographs that are already in the report.
8 Q I recall that there was, at one time, a
9 designated person to demonstrate the microfiltration. Do
10 you remember that? Were you a part of that decision that
11 there would be someone to demonstrate the
12 microfiltration?
13 A At the trial?
14 Q Yes, sir.
15 A Yes, we had some discussions about that. I
16 believe the individuals that will be demonstrating the
17 microfiltration would be myself and Kevin Boehmer, who is
18 on your list of people to be deposed.
19 Q Certainly. And that's why you pulled the
20 person, the other, the demonstration person will be you
21 or Mr. Boehmer?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. PERKO: Dr. Shannon, just so the record is
24 clearer, you should wait until Ms. Ponzoli has
25 finished her question before you answer it. Makes
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
13
1 better reading.
2 MS. PONZOLI: I try to remember that, too,
3 Dr. Shannon.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to be too
5 helpful, that's all.
6 MS. PONZOLI: I need all the help I can get,
7 Dr. Shannon.
8 BY MS. PONZOLI:
9 Q So the only documents left from -- we were at
10 5, Dr. Shannon, I believe, relating to research?
11 A Yes.
12 Q The only documents were those photographs that
13 we're going to have Fed Ex'd down tomorrow?
14 A Yes.
15 Q In category 6, it's a pretty broad category.
16 Have you reread that and feel comfortable that you have
17 produced everything in category 6?
18 A Yes, I do feel comfortable that we've covered
19 that area.
20 Q Is a lot of category 6 -- just so I'm clear.
21 Is that covered by these publicly available documents
22 that you've listed?
23 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
24 A I believe that's a fair assessment of the
25 situation, yes.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
14
1 Q Category 7. Again, you've produced all
2 documents in category 7?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And, again, category 7 is covered, in some
5 large part, by the list of documents in the publicly
6 available documents?
7 A Yes.
8 MS. PONZOLI: Ms. Court Reporter, do you have
9 stickers to mark the exhibits?
10 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes.
11 MS. PONZOLI: I think we might -- should
12 include -- I guess at this point, I would like to
13 just go ahead and be sure that we attach his notice
14 of taking deposition, duces tecum, and the letter
15 with the list of documents.
16 (Deposition Exhibits 1 and 2 marked for
17 identification.)
18 Q Dr. Shannon, I'm returning to you EES Number 1,
19 which was your notice, duces tecum, and I think I'm going
20 to hold on for a minute, EES Number 2, which is the
21 letter with the publicly available documents that we have
22 been discussing. Had you told me whether you had
23 produced all documents in 7?
24 A Yes, I have.
25 Q And then as to number 8, have you produced all
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
15
1 documents?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And number 9. I think some of these are
4 duplicative, if you've answered another one, you've
5 answered these, but in an abundance of caution, I think
6 we may get carried away asking for the same thing three
7 different ways.
8 Number 10. All laboratory notes, hard copies
9 of computer disks, et cetera. Those have been produced?
10 A Yes, they have. If I could just add, on some
11 of the work that was done in '77-78 in the nitrogen and
12 phosphorus water balance studies, some of the original
13 data, and so on, I have not been able to relocate, so I
14 couldn't produce it.
15 Q So it appears in the reports in a summarized
16 form?
17 A Yes, it's summarized in the report.
18 Q Let me ask you, while I'm thinking of it,
19 Dr. Shannon, you produced disks of data in response to
20 this request, did you not?
21 A Yes, we did.
22 Q We have not had easy access. Would you explain
23 to me how to access the data? It may just be something
24 simple that we didn't do appropriately, but we were not
25 able to access it. Can you tell us how to access it on
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
16
1 the disks?
2 A I can talk to Kevin Boehmer who set up the
3 disks and worked with them, and get that information, or
4 I could have him talk directly to whoever you have trying
5 to do that.
6 MS. PONZOLI: What we will actually have,
7 during the course of this deposition, is someone
8 from DEP has the disks presently and is trying -- we
9 had tried to access it and had not been successful,
10 and so we turned it over to DEP who had several
11 people and they were going to try today. Is there a
12 phone number? Could that person call Boehmer
13 directly? How do you want to handle that,
14 Mr. Perko?
15 MR. PERKO: I don't have a problem with that.
16 THE WITNESS: I would like some clarification
17 on what disks we're talking about.
18 MS. PONZOLI: These are the disks that you
19 produced in response to the notice, duces tecum.
20 MR. PERKO: It's my understanding we produced
21 three disks, is that right?
22 DR. JONES: They might be duplicated. There's
23 three or six.
24 MS. PONZOLI: Frequently, when something comes
25 in my office, they will automatically make a second
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
17
1 set.
2 MR. PERKO: It's my understanding they have
3 three disks, and I don't want to testify on the
4 record, but it's my understanding that was the early
5 base-line data that we received from the South
6 Florida Water Management District.
7 MS. PONZOLI: Is that all that's on there, is
8 the early base-line data?
9 MR. PERKO: That's my understanding.
10 THE WITNESS: I believe there may also be the
11 early base-line data, the co-op farms early
12 base-line data in another disk. And there also may
13 be another disk that has the spread sheet
14 information that we developed, spread sheets that we
15 developed from that sugar cane growers' data.
16 That's why I needed some clarification of what disk
17 you were referring to, or what data set you were
18 referring to.
19 BY MS. PONZOLI:
20 Q Of course, our problem we haven't seen what's
21 on the disk so we don't know what we're referring to.
22 Can you give us Mr. Boehmer's number and we'll phone it
23 over to DEP and let someone -- do you have it?
24 A Yes, it's a 519 area code.
25 Q Is that Canada?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
18
1 A 579-3500.
2 Q 579-3900?
3 A 3500.
4 Q I'm sorry. (519)579-3500. And you think he'll
5 be there today?
6 A I believe he is, yes.
7 MR. PERKO: I don't have a problem with DEP
8 calling Mr. Boehmer as long as there are no
9 attorneys involved. If there is an attorney, I
10 would like to have one of our attorneys on the line.
11 MS. PONZOLI: We'll take a break in a little
12 while and we'll relay that information.
13 BY MS. PONZOLI:
14 Q Now, you said that you thought what appears on
15 those disks, to the best of your recollection,
16 Dr. Shannon, is early base-line data from the South
17 Florida Water Management District, this is for the BMP
18 Rule?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And the early base-line data from the co-op
21 farm for that same purpose?
22 A Co-op farms.
23 Q Farms. I'm sorry, yes, sir. And then spread
24 sheet information, and I didn't understand what it meant
25 by the co-op's data?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
19
1 A That would be the co-op's farms' data that I
2 referred to.
3 Q It's the same. There's not three different
4 categories. It's really only the two.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Is there anything else that you believe is
7 there?
8 A No. I think that covers it.
9 Q There's no data from your microfiltration --
10 A Not in a computer data base.
11 Q That's on the hard sheets that you gave us?
12 A The data from the microfiltration is in the
13 report.
14 Q Then we have all the proposals in category 11?
15 A Again, on the proposals, I wasn't able to
16 locate the proposal for our original study that we did on
17 nitrogen, phosphorus, and water balances in the EAA.
18 Q This was '78?
19 A Yes. The proposal would have been made in '77
20 or late '76.
21 Q But all others were provided?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And then your field notes in number 12. And I
24 assume those were all provided.
25 A Yes. We provided the field notes from the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
20
1 microfiltration work that we had done recently. And,
2 again, I don't have the field notes for the '77-78
3 studies in the EAA.
4 Q Number 13. 13 would appear to have a word
5 processing typo in it. I think they cannibalize these
6 from one expert to the next. You're not Dr. Davis. But
7 assuming it's written to apply to Dr. Shannon.
8 A Yes, I would say that I had provided that
9 information.
10 Q And number 14.
11 A Yes.
12 Q Number 15.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Number 16.
15 A Yes.
16 Q And number 17.
17 A Yes.
18 Q 18.
19 A Yes.
20 Q 19.
21 A Yes.
22 Q 20.
23 A I'm not sure I had anything in that regard in
24 my files, but if there was, we would certainly provide
25 it.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
21
1 Q And how about 21?
2 A Yes.
3 Q To your knowledge, was it documents from 21
4 that were withheld or not?
5 A Documents from number 21?
6 Q Well, documents that would fit into the
7 category of number 21, were those the kinds of documents
8 that you believe were withheld?
9 A I'm not sure of the question. I'm sorry.
10 MR. PERKO: Counsel, I'll provide a privilege
11 list after lunch break. I think you'll see there
12 were no documents in that category.
13 Q Dr. Shannon, let me -- on the privilege, then,
14 we can look at the list and talk about it then. Did you
15 make the decision or did your attorney make the decision
16 what was appropriate to pull back?
17 A We gave our attorney everything.
18 Q And the attorney made the decision?
19 A Made the decision, yes.
20 Q Number 22.
21 A I must have skipped a page here. Again, on 22,
22 some of the earlier correspondence files and so on
23 relating to the '77-78 study, I couldn't produce those,
24 because I didn't have them, and couldn't locate them.
25 Q How long, Dr. Shannon, have you done work on
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
22
1 behalf of the Florida Sugar Cane League or the Sugar Cane
2 Growers Cooperative?
3 A Started -- initial work with Florida Sugar Cane
4 League started in 1975.
5 Q And when they began, you began to be a
6 consultant for them?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Were you hired, originally, or contracted by
9 Mr. Wedgworth?
10 A No; I was not. I was hired by the Florida
11 Sugar Cane League, and the executive director at the time
12 was Nelson Fairbanks.
13 Q So your initial contact with them was through
14 Mr. Fairbanks?
15 A The best that I can recollect, it was with
16 Nelson Fairbanks.
17 Q Do you continue to work on behalf of
18 Mr. Fairbanks, or U.S. Sugar, or the league at present?
19 A I'm working for the Sugar Cane Growers
20 Cooperative at present.
21 Q So the answer to my other question is really
22 no; you're not presently working?
23 A No.
24 Q When was the last time that you were under a
25 contract with Mr. Fairbanks, U.S. Sugar, or the league?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
23
1 A Last involvement with the Florida Sugar Cane
2 League was probably around 1989.
3 Q And do you recall what that contract was?
4 A I worked on an as-needed basis for the league
5 from the period of 1975 to 1989. There were some periods
6 of time that there wasn't a lot of activity, and then
7 there were other periods of time that there was.
8 Q Were these frequently with Lake
9 Okeechobee-related issues?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you serve on LOTC on behalf of the league?
12 A Yes, I was on LOTC water quality subcommittee.
13 Q Were all of your efforts between '75 and '89
14 water quality efforts on behalf of the league?
15 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
16 A In a broad sense, they were all related to
17 water quality.
18 Q Were there any that you would prefer to
19 categorize as a different area of consultation for them?
20 A No. I would stick with the water quality
21 designation.
22 Q Were they nutrient or dissolved oxygen related?
23 A Primarily nutrient related.
24 Q Category 23, Dr. Shannon.
25 A Yes.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
24
1 Q You've produced all of those?
2 A Yes, I have.
3 Q And category 24.
4 A Yes.
5 Q And 25.
6 A Yes.
7 Q To the best of your recollection, Dr. Shannon,
8 whose work have you reviewed, either of witnesses on
9 behalf of the petitioners, or witnesses on behalf of the
10 respondents -- or respondent and intervenors? Do you
11 want me to break those into two separate categories?
12 A Yes.
13 Q On behalf of the petitioners, either the co-op,
14 the league, or the fruit and vegetable association, whose
15 work do you recall having reviewed?
16 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
17 A You're referring to actual records of
18 depositions?
19 Q No, sir. I'm referring to any reports, data,
20 any work, either in the large or the smaller sense.
21 A Would you --
22 Q If it's everyone I'll get you a list and we can
23 tick them off.
24 A Well, maybe you should get me a list, because
25 there certainly was a preponderance of information
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
25
1 presented through the SAGE deliberations and -- I could
2 go from memory, but I'm certain that I would miss some of
3 it.
4 Q Putting aside what was reviewed through SAGE,
5 have you done other evaluations on behalf of the co-op of
6 the petitioners' work?
7 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
8 Q Do you understand the question, Dr. Shannon?
9 A Yes, I understand the question. I'm just
10 trying to think if I have. There may have been some --
11 one or two instances.
12 Q Who do you think those might have been?
13 A I have commented on some of the progress
14 reports that Dr. Richardson's group has produced.
15 Q Anything else?
16 A Through my comments -- or my summaries of SAGE
17 meetings, I've commented on information that's been
18 presented at SAGE, but I think your question excluded
19 that information.
20 Q Well, you pretty much provided those working
21 reports, and they frequently refer to whose work you were
22 reporting on, and maybe there's a little capsule of what
23 you thought, or attached to the reports. At least, for
24 the present, I have a pretty good record of whose work
25 you've looked at. I may want to take you through some of
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
26
1 that in a little more detail later, if we have time, but
2 my question had gone, really, at that point to the
3 petitioners. So to the best of your recollection, you
4 looked at experts from the petitioners whose work was
5 presented to SAGE and to some progress reports of
6 Dr. Richardson's, is that accurate?
7 A That is accurate.
8 Q Have you ever reviewed, on behalf of the
9 cooperative, mercury data, for example?
10 A I have seen one set of mercury data, but I have
11 not reviewed it or commented on it.
12 Q Whose mercury data was that?
13 A There was mercury data collected as part of the
14 microfiltration study.
15 Q You have not really reviewed that data, is that
16 what you're telling me?
17 A I have seen the data, but I have not been asked
18 or did not volunteer any comments on the interpretation
19 of the data.
20 Q Is it your understanding that someone else will
21 interpret that data?
22 A Yes, it is.
23 Q Who will that be?
24 A My understanding was that it would have been
25 Dr. Pollman, KBN.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
27
1 Q You must be aware that Dr. Pollman is not going
2 to testify on mercury. Do you have any idea --
3 MS. PONZOLI: That's accurate, Mr. Perko, is
4 that right? Well, I mean in the sense of -- how do
5 we say this -- a voluntary witness.
6 MR. PERKO: I think that's accurate that
7 Dr. Pollman will not voluntarily testify regarding
8 mercury.
9 MS. PONZOLI: And the cooperative has reserved
10 its right to solicit his involuntary testimony?
11 MR. PERKO: Right.
12 BY MS. PONZOLI:
13 Q So we're safe in assuming that Dr. Pollman will
14 continue to interpret the mercury data, is that accurate?
15 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
16 A I don't think we are -- speaking from my
17 knowledge of the situation, I'm not sure that is a safe
18 assumption.
19 Q Do you have any idea who else will interpret
20 the data?
21 A I have no idea.
22 Q Do you think it's possible that in the end you
23 might be asked to interpret the data?
24 A No; I would not even attempt to delve into the
25 mercury area. It's outside of my area of expertise.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
28
1 Q So you do not consider yourself an expert on
2 that?
3 A No. Definitely not; definitely not.
4 Q Have you heard expressed, Dr. Shannon, what any
5 of the opinions on the mercury issue are?
6 A Yes, I have.
7 Q What have you heard?
8 A And these have been discussions primarily with
9 Dr. Pollman.
10 Q Right.
11 A And what I've heard is that there is potential
12 for STAs to release methyl mercury.
13 Q Did he express anything else in regard to that
14 potential for STAs to release methyl mercury?
15 A No. Our discussions on mercury were --
16 probably encompassed no more than five minutes of
17 discussion.
18 Q Did Dr. Pollman express any opinion on water
19 conservation areas releasing methyl mercury?
20 A Not to my knowledge. Our discussion was
21 focused on what might happen in a STA.
22 Q From your knowledge of the STAs and the water
23 conservation areas, do you see a distinction between them
24 that would affect --
25 MR. PERKO: I'm going to object to the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
29
1 question. Dr. Shannon said he's not an expert in
2 mercury.
3 MS. PONZOLI: That's all right. He can answer
4 my question.
5 BY MS. PONZOLI:
6 Q Dr. Shannon, from your knowledge of the STAs
7 and the water conservation areas, do you see a
8 distinction between them in regard to the release of
9 methyl mercury?
10 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
11 A I see some differences between STAs and
12 conservation areas. Whether these differences are
13 relevant to mercury or not, I just don't feel comfortable
14 commenting on mercury issues.
15 Q What are the differences you see between them?
16 Between the STAs and the water conversation areas.
17 A Well, the obvious difference is that the STAs
18 would be constructed primarily on farm or agricultural
19 land; whereas, the conservation areas have been vegetated
20 for a long period of time.
21 Q And you see that as the primary difference
22 between the two?
23 A I see that as probably the most -- or to me
24 that's the most obvious difference between a STA and a
25 conservation area.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
30
1 Q And how will that affect their functioning, in
2 the broadest sense?
3 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
4 A Again, I'm -- I feel my area of expertise is in
5 the area of water quality, nutrient problems, primarily
6 as related to lakes. I feel that I'm not particularly
7 qualified to comment on what happens in STAs from a
8 biological or nutrient standpoint, or conservation areas.
9 Wetlands is definitely not an area of expertise for me.
10 Q I had started down this road asking if you had
11 reviewed work of other experts for the petitioners, so
12 I'd like to return to the cross in the road where I'll
13 ask you if you have reviewed the work of experts for the
14 respondent or the intervenors.
15 A In answer to that question, I believe almost
16 exclusively any reviews I've done have been within the
17 context of SAGE, either sitting around the table at SAGE
18 meetings or follow-up comments that I made to the co-op
19 through my SAGE meeting summaries. I'm having difficulty
20 trying to remember if there's anything at all that fell
21 outside that general --
22 Q So the best of your recollection is that you
23 reviewed what was presented at SAGE, reported on it, but
24 you haven't, to the best of your recollection, been asked
25 to review any other work of the respondent/intervenors'
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
31
1 experts?
2 A You may find something. To the best of my
3 recollection, I don't think I have.
4 Q If you had, I wanted to know what you said and
5 what you thought.
6 Number 26.
7 A Yes, I did provide.
8 Q And then number 27, I think -- I somehow think
9 that was covered by another question, but I assume you've
10 produced everything in 27?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Number 28 is -- you produced those, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And number 29.
15 A Yes.
16 Q These look awfully the same to me.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Number 30.
19 A Yes.
20 (Brief recess.)
21 Q Dr. Shannon, I would like to go over -- you've
22 been designated as an expert witness for the cooperative,
23 and I'm going to tell you what the cooperative has
24 designated you as testifying.
25 A Do you have an extra copy of that, or could I
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
32
1 look at yours?
2 Q You can look at mine. You're certainly welcome
3 to. That you are expected to testify on analysis of EAA
4 nutrient run-off data, and I guess fitting with that
5 would be evaluation of historical and recent trends in
6 EAA phosphorus discharges, is that accurate?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And then a second area of testimony is
9 evaluation of phosphorus treatment alternatives.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Is that also accurate that you will be
12 testifying on that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And I guess, in a substance of expected
15 testimony, that you're going to give testimony on a
16 comparison of proposed STAs and potentially viable
17 phosphorus treatment alternatives including but not
18 limited to microfiltration prototype testing and EAA, is
19 that accurate?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Are there any other areas that you intend or
22 believe that you will be asked to testify on,
23 Dr. Shannon, at the time of trial?
24 A I believe those are the three main areas.
25 Q I had broken them really into two, so you --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
33
1 how are you breaking them into three?
2 A Well, just subject matter of expected
3 testimony: analysis of EAA nutrient run-off data,
4 evaluation of phosphorus treatment alternatives, and
5 generally accepted engineering practices.
6 Q That's right. I had not read the last one,
7 generally accepted engineering practices.
8 A I was being helpful again.
9 Q I'd like to know what the heart of your
10 analysis of EAA nutrient run-off data testimony will be.
11 A I've looked at that aspect on two different
12 levels. One is the overall loadings from the EAA from
13 the major pumping stations.
14 Q Yes.
15 A And then the trends that have occurred in that
16 period of record. I think from 19 -- I'm not sure of the
17 period of the record, but it's back into the '70s to
18 date. And then the second level that I've looked at --
19 looked at that area from is the mass balance, material
20 balance data from our 1977-78 studies, IFAS, BMP study
21 data, and other sources.
22 Q In regard to anything else?
23 A This is in regard to the first area.
24 Q In regard to the first area, analysis of EAA
25 nutrient run-off data.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
34
1 A Should be phosphorus data, not nutrient.
2 Q And what will you be testifying, Dr. Shannon?
3 What opinions do you have?
4 A Looking at the historical data, the overall
5 phosphorus loading data from the EAA, it appears to be
6 in, recently, decline in the overall phosphorus loadings.
7 Q Have you quantified the decline, Dr. Shannon?
8 A I've relied primarily on other experts or
9 consultants' analysis of that information, and the
10 decline appears to be in the order somewhere around 30
11 percent.
12 Q And on whose work have you relied?
13 A Can I just ask Gary a question here?
14 Q You have to ask it on the record.
15 A Well, it's Info Tech.
16 Q Info Tech?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And who has done this work for Info Tech?
19 A I'm not exactly sure who did the work.
20 Q Have you looked at any other analysis of the
21 data that reflected a decline?
22 A No; I haven't.
23 Q So you are --
24 A I believe in the Info Tech information, and it
25 also has a comparison to the water management district's
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
35
1 data also, South Florida Water Management District's
2 data.
3 Q Did Info Tech come to this conclusion of the
4 30-percent decline, and so you're simply accepting their
5 analysis?
6 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
7 A Could you -- because of the interruption there,
8 I lost the train of the question.
9 Q In regard to the decline of 30 percent, where
10 you relied upon Info Tech, did you rely upon their
11 analysis that there has been a 30-percent decline?
12 A I relied on their analysis, and also the water
13 management district data showed the same sort of trend,
14 and should establish to what extent I used this
15 information, it really was an overall look at what's
16 happening from an EAA phosphorus loadings. And then once
17 it was apparent that there was something happening, then
18 I focused in on the second level of analysis.
19 Q The trends in the period, is that what you
20 mean?
21 A No. The second -- this is part of point 1, and
22 the second one was looking at other information as to try
23 to explain why that was happening. More on a smaller
24 scale basis of what's happening on individual farms.
25 Q Let me return for a moment to the phosphorus
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
36
1 loading from the EAA. The period of decline dates from
2 when to when, Dr. Shannon?
3 A It would be helpful if I could have that
4 particular material in front of me, because I'm going
5 from memory --
6 Q Do you know which --
7 A The Info Tech. I know your number, it's number
8 30 --
9 Q Well, I don't have them numbered that way.
10 A -- and it's been produced.
11 Q Well, the Info Tech information is in a large
12 box. I mean, I would have to have you go through the box
13 to find it, if you could put your hands on it faster?
14 A I can give you my --
15 Q To the best of your recollection at the time
16 frame.
17 A I can give you the best recollection of what
18 the time frames are. The time frame that the
19 comparisons, the recent trends are being made to is the
20 time frame -- the same time frame that was used by Burns
21 and McDonnell, in their established historical phosphorus
22 loads for the area. So I believe they went from '77 to
23 '91. And then the 30-percent reduction, or the apparent
24 30-percent reduction, or the reduction has been evidenced
25 in that period after 1991. And I haven't seen '93 data.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
37
1 Q So the trend is a trend that covers two years
2 of data, to the best of your recollection?
3 A Yes. There may even be part of '93 data in
4 there, but I haven't seen the complete record for '93.
5 Q Had there been an increase over time up to '91,
6 Dr. Shannon, an increasing trend prior to '91?
7 MR. PERKO: You mean in phosphorus loading?
8 MS. PONZOLI: In phosphorus loading.
9 A There was -- again, my recollection, there was
10 one unusually high loading year, but the other -- and I
11 believe that was '83. It stood out as a high loading
12 amongst the other years, and then there wasn't any
13 apparent trend in the data, either upward or downward,
14 other than that blip that stood out on the chart.
15 BY MS. PONZOLI:
16 Q So other than -- if you were to remove the year
17 '83, pull that year's data out of from '77-78 through
18 '91, you believe there was no apparent trend in the data?
19 In the phosphorus loading data.
20 A Yes, there was. There did not appear to be any
21 trend.
22 Q And do you recall what particularly happened in
23 '83 that would cause '83 to be unusually high --
24 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
25 Q -- in phosphorus loading?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
38
1 A I didn't actually look at a comparison of
2 rainfall for those periods, but I would expect it was
3 probably a fairly wet year.
4 Q Do you have any particular knowledge of '91 and
5 '92 in regard to the weather that would cause '91 and '92
6 to produce a reduced phosphorus loading?
7 A I have some rainfall data for '92. I believe
8 '92 was a wet year. '91, I'm not sure whether the
9 weather was above normal or below normal rainfall in that
10 period.
11 Q So a wet year doesn't necessarily make it a
12 higher loading or a lower loading, is that accurate?
13 A Amount of rainfall is certainly a factor in
14 loading, observed loadings, but the degree of wetness is
15 also a factor of how much is it above a normal year, how
16 much is it below a normal year.
17 Q But in the '83 instance, you believe that a wet
18 year produced unusually high loading, but in '92, we're
19 seeing a trend downward, even though it's a wet year, is
20 that accurate?
21 A Before I'd comment on how wet '93 was compared
22 to '83, I would like to refer to the actual rainfall
23 numbers. But the degree of rainfall is certainly a
24 factor in the loadings.
25 Q Do you have any way of knowing, Dr. Shannon, if
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
39
1 this two-year downward trend that you're referring to in
2 phosphorus loading into the EPA will continue?
3 A I have no way of knowing at present whether
4 this will continue.
5 Q Do you have an opinion as to what has caused
6 the two-year downward trend?
7 A Yes, I do.
8 Q What is your opinion on what has caused the
9 two-year downward trend?
10 A My opinion is that at least some of this
11 reduction is due to implementation of best management
12 practices within the EAA.
13 Q Can you tell me any other causes that you
14 believe have contributed to the 30-percent downward
15 trend?
16 A Again, referring to the degree of rainfall in
17 comparison to the normal or average rainfall, it could be
18 a factor either causing a downward trend or upward trend.
19 Q Have you done any of that comparison?
20 A No; I haven't.
21 Q Do you intend to?
22 A As I mentioned, there was -- I was satisfied,
23 in my analysis, looking at the data, that there was a
24 downward trend, and that it didn't appear to be due to --
25 entirely due to rainfall factors, so then I started
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
40
1 looking at the BMP factor.
2 Q If you were to assign some range of the 30
3 percent that might be due to rainfall, do you have an
4 opinion as to what that range might be? Do you
5 understand my question?
6 A Yes, I understand your question. I really
7 didn't attempt that sort of analysis. But rainfall
8 certainly does enter into the trend, but whether it's
9 five percent or --
10 Q Ten percent --
11 A -- 10 percent, I'm just speculating.
12 Q In regard to the BMPs, tell me the BMPs that
13 you believe have been implemented during this two-year
14 period -- or maybe even prior to the two-year period. I
15 don't want to be so precise that you say, well, they
16 started on this date -- but the BMPs that had been
17 implemented in the recent time in the EAA that you
18 believe have contributed to this 30 percent.
19 A Well, I think the main BMP that has been
20 implemented is that -- is the so-called pump BMP, where
21 individual operations make a concerted effort to reduce
22 the amount of water that's pumped off their farms.
23 Q Do you have an opinion as to what part of the
24 30 percent could be attributable to just the reduced
25 pumping?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
41
1 A I can express an opinion. I think it could
2 vary as low as -- and let me establish the base would be,
3 say, some condition where there is no BMPs. That's what
4 I'm going to be comparing to. A pump BMP could reduce
5 phosphorus loadings by as much as 40 percent, or as
6 little as five or 10 percent. Depends on what the farm
7 was doing under the base-line condition.
8 Q Just so I'm completely clear, in order to
9 obtain something like the 40-percent reduction, you might
10 have had a farm that was exercising very little
11 discretion on its pumping, just really pumping pretty
12 much at will, in order to obtain the 40 percent, is that
13 what you're implying?
14 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
15 Q I can ask it a different way. I mean, what are
16 you talking about what the farm was doing under the base
17 line? What do you mean? What are the factors that a
18 farm might be doing under the base line that, in order to
19 change, then it could go to the maximum?
20 A Well, that's a difficult question to answer.
21 But I would say that the real base-line conditions in the
22 EAA probably go back to the period when we were doing our
23 initial studies maybe '77, '78, when there was -- really,
24 there was no focus on BMPs. Probably most farmers hadn't
25 even heard the words "best management practices." So in
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
42
1 our analysis, we tried to do some of those kinds of
2 comparisons. So I think a real, true base-line condition
3 probably goes back a long ways. And if you take the
4 base-line conditions that existed, say, before 1980, and
5 you compare present pump BMPs to those, you probably
6 would achieve a 40-percent reduction in phosphorus
7 loading.
8 Q But the base line would have to go back to the
9 phosphorus loading that was at that frame of the late
10 '70s, early '80s?
11 A And, again, it depends on the individual
12 operation. It's very site specific?
13 Q And that --
14 A Some farmers may have been a lot more concerned
15 about the amount of water pumped than others. It's
16 really impossible for me to determine when their attitude
17 changed about that.
18 Q What would cause some of the farmers to pump
19 more than others?
20 A I would say, in general, the more sensitive
21 agricultural operations such as vegetables would tend to
22 pump more water than the other major land use in the
23 area, sugar cane, because their crops are more sensitive
24 to water damage. I've seen instances on vegetable farms
25 where they pump in anticipation of rain back in our early
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
43
1 studies.
2 Q I remember our griping about that. Just so I'm
3 understanding this in the kind of broad-brush fashion
4 that you and I are doing this, you had noticed no upward
5 trend in phosphorus loading into the EAA over that same
6 time frame, so we've got pretty much a constant in
7 phosphorus loading, by your belief, into the EAA from the
8 late '70s through the early '90s, but for the one year
9 you would like to exclude?
10 A Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, I didn't say I would
11 like to exclude it. I just said it was obviously a very
12 large loading. It was apparent to me.
13 Q And on an average that loading was how much per
14 year in phosphorus tons?
15 A On average from -- and I would be referring to
16 probably the most detailed analysis of the loading, and
17 that's in the Burns and McDonnell report for the '77
18 through '91 record. The actual loading from the EAA,
19 discounting for pass throughs from the lake, that would
20 be water that's released from the lake and passed through
21 the area, I think around 205 or 206 tons a year, metric
22 tons.
23 Q And the lake would contribute an additional
24 amount of how much?
25 A I believe it's around nine or 10 tons, the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
44
1 pass-through water from the lake.
2 Q I'm confused, Dr. Shannon, because, if the
3 tonnage is pretty much the same over time from the late
4 '70s to the early '90s, in order to see the 30-percent
5 decline, why would you need to go back so far in time, I
6 mean, if it's the same over time, in order to get an
7 appropriate base line?
8 A Well, I didn't say that it has been the same
9 over time, that 205-tons-per-year, 206-tons-a-year number
10 that I gave you is the average annual loading over that
11 period, and there certainly was fluctuation around that
12 average.
13 Q But largely -- I mean, we're looking at an
14 average, over time, and we're looking at a 30-percent
15 reduction, why do you need to go so far back for the base
16 line? That's the part that's confusing me.
17 A Well, maybe what you're having difficulty with
18 is that I'm trying to establish a base line condition for
19 an individual farm.
20 Q Right.
21 A And individual farming operations have become
22 aware of BMPs over a number of years. I would say when
23 most farmers had to actually apply for their permits,
24 then they become particularly aware of BMPs, and it might
25 explain an additional awareness into BMP practices.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
45
1 Q Let's go to other BMPs. Do you believe there
2 are other BMPs that contribute significantly to the
3 phosphorus load reduction?
4 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q Which are those?
7 A Well, based on some of the presentations that
8 were made at SAGE by IFAS, and by U.S. Sugar, and I
9 believe there are other presentations on BMPs, Brown and
10 Caldwell summarized BMP information and made some
11 projections on the degree of BMP implementation. Things
12 like banning, fertilizer banning; in general, water table
13 control, retention of water on farm, transferring from
14 one field to another in a way to avoid pumping --
15 Q You don't --
16 A -- cleaning canals on a regular basis so that
17 you get that material that could be resuspended by the
18 pump or by flows in the canal, soil testing in applying
19 fertilizer according to the soil test results. I think
20 that's probably covered.
21 Q Water table control and the movement of water
22 on a farm, or retention on a farm, you don't place with
23 the pumping practice as in the same basic category?
24 A No. But they are related, yes.
25 Q I think I asked you this before, but I honestly
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
46
1 can't recall if I got the answer, and I apologize. The
2 percentage of the reduction that you can attribute to
3 water control, are you able to say that 90 percent of
4 your reduction will be in your water control?
5 A In water table control?
6 Q Well, in pumping and in water table control.
7 A Ninety percent of reduction from any BMPs,
8 total BMPs?
9 Q Yes, sir.
10 A No; I don't think so.
11 Q You don't think it's that high?
12 A I don't think that pump control would
13 contribute across the board, 90 percent of the potential
14 BMP reduction.
15 Q It's the primary way you can reduce your
16 phosphorus export, right?
17 A It's probably the -- on a broad generalization
18 basis across the EAA, it's probably the most easily
19 implementable practice, and it's probably the one that's
20 going to give you the most immediate impact.
21 Q Not too expensive either, is it?
22 A No; it's not.
23 Q But you don't want to assign some percentage of
24 the estimated reduction that farmers can achieve to that
25 particular primary way?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
47
1 A No; I don't.
2 Q Do you think that these others combined: soil
3 testing, cleaning canals, and banning arguably could
4 equal water control?
5 A In my opinion, BMPs, combining a suite of BMPs
6 across the EAA, across land uses, and so on could reduce
7 loadings by as much as 50 percent.
8 Q Combining all that you had mentioned: the
9 water control, the banning, the cleaning the canals, the
10 soil testing, all of those together?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Do you believe that you will testify to that at
13 the time of trial?
14 A To the 50 percent?
15 Q Yes, sir.
16 A As high as 50 percent?
17 Q Yes, sir.
18 A Yes.
19 Q How long do you think it would take us before
20 we could know that we could achieve 50-percent reduction
21 by BMPs?
22 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
23 A In terms of overall, the overall EAA?
24 Q Yes, sir.
25 A Or have it demonstrated at an individual site?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
48
1 Q In terms of certainty -- there are two kinds of
2 certainty. Maybe certainty for the farmer so that he
3 would be willing to be committed to that type of
4 reduction, and maybe certainty as to the governmental
5 regulatory agency so they could reasonably expect that
6 kind of reduction. Let's take it first as to the farmer.
7 When do you think we would be able to know so the farmer
8 would be comfortable with that type of obligation?
9 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
10 A I would say that the farmer would -- in order
11 for them to be comfortable that they can consistently
12 achieve these kinds of reductions, they're probably going
13 to need probably two or three years of data.
14 Q From now, from the present time, or from the
15 beginning of their base line?
16 A From the period that they actually implemented
17 the BMPs.
18 Q And you're speaking theoretically, not
19 specifically?
20 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
21 Q Do you understand what I mean? We've got a BMP
22 program out there, and we've got a 25-percent reduction
23 going on out there. Are you saying that from the time a
24 farmer began collecting the data for that period, he
25 would be able to commit to whether he could be
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
49
1 comfortable with being obligated to reach 50 percent?
2 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
3 A I feel that the two-year period is reasonable.
4 The farmers are going to rely a lot on the results of the
5 IFAS program. They're going to want to see what the
6 program showed for their particular type of operation.
7 Q Is it also safe for me to assume that there
8 will be some farmers who theoretically will be
9 comfortable committing to that type of reduction and
10 other farmers who won't --
11 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
12 Q -- even if they had applied the same degree of
13 effort to achieving BMPs?
14 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
15 A Farmers being farmers, and people being people,
16 I'm sure you'll find some that won't be comfortable with
17 that and some that will.
18 Q Putting aside their comfort and just looking at
19 objective ability to achieve, will there still be
20 differences?
21 A Differences between individual farmers?
22 Q Yes, sir.
23 A Oh, I think there will be.
24 Q And will that go to things such as vegetable
25 farmers versus sugar farmers?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
50
1 MR. PERKO: Object to form.
2 A Well, I think the vegetable farmers have a lot
3 more -- their zone of improvement is considerably wider
4 than sugar cane.
5 Q Oh. They can improve, tremendously, but still
6 be exporting more phosphorus than a sugar cane farmer?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you think that the regulatory agencies
9 within that same two-year period could be comfortable
10 that farmers could achieve a 50-percent reduction?
11 MR. PERKO: Objection; speculation and/or legal
12 conclusion.
13 A I wouldn't want to comment on how comfortable
14 the regulators might be with this.
15 Q I could suggest regulators could get real
16 comfortable real fast. I thought the first group would
17 be the hard ones. Do you have an intention to testify,
18 additionally, on loading from the EAA other than what
19 we've been discussing?
20 A No; not as far as the overall EAA loads go.
21 Q Do you intend to testify as to other sources of
22 loading into the EAA?
23 A Other sources? Such as?
24 Q Of phosphorus loading.
25 A Such as -- you mean nonagricultural sources?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
51
1 Q Yes, sir.
2 A No.
&