STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATION HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, A FLORIDA AGRICULTURAL COOPERATIVE MARKETING ASSOCIATION, CASE NOs. 92-3038 ROTH FARMS, INC., AND WEDGWORTH 92-3039 FARMS, INC., 92-3040 and FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., and FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., Petitioners, vs. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, an AGENCY of the STATE OF FLORIDA, Respondent, and MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, THE FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, the FLORIDA AUDUBON SOCIETY, and the SIERA CLUB, Intervenors. -------------------------------------------/ DEPOSITION OF JOHN O. SCHLECHTER 2 1 One Clearlake Center Suite 1403 2 West Palm Beach, Florida November 12, 1992 3 9:00 o'clock P.M. 4 5 APPEARANCES: 6 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 7 ENVIRONMENT & NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION BY: GEOFFREY GARVER, ESQUIRE 8 appearing on behalf of the Plaintiff. 9 OERTEL, HOFFMAN, FERNANDEZ & COLE, P.A., BY: KENNETH F. HOFFMAN, ESQUIRE 10 appearing on behalf of Fruit & Vegetable Association. 11 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, P.A., 12 BY: RICHARD RUSSELL, ESQUIRE appearing on behalf of Sugar Cane League. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 3 1 The deposition of JOHN O. SCHLECHTER, a witness 2 of lawful age, taken for the purpose of discovery as 3 evidence in the above-styled cause, pending in the United 4 States District Court, Southern District of Florida, 5 pursuant to notice, before Brenda Weinerth, Notary Public 6 in and for the State of Florida at Large, at the time and 7 place aforesaid. 8 -------------------- 9 I N D E X 10 WITNESS 11 JOHN O. SCHLECHTER 12 Direct Examination by Mr. Garver 3 13 E X H I B I T S 14 SCHLECHTER FOR IDENTIFICATION 15 No. Page 16 1 5 2 21 {___ 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 THEREUPON: 2 JOHN O. SCHLECHTER 3 Was called as a witness by the Plaintiff having been first 4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. GARVER: 7 Q Sir, please, state your name for the record 8 and spell your last name? 9 A My name is John O. Schlechter. 10 Q Mr. Schlechter, my name is Jeff Garver. I am 11 an attorney with the Department of Justice and I represent 12 the United States in this deposition. Have you ever had 13 your deposition taken before? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. GARVER: You have. Before we get going I 16 want to state for the record that the United States 17 noticed simultaneously depositions at this time for 18 Mr. Schlechter and Mr. Pope. We have here in this 19 room Mr. Schlechter and Mr. Pope. Mr. Ken Hoffman 20 on behalf of those witnesses and also Richard 21 Russell of Peeples, Earl & Blank on behalf of Sugar 22 Cane League, et. al. while the United States has 23 agreed to conduct the depositions of Mr. Schlechter 24 and Mr. Pope sequentially the United States does not 25 waive any future right it may have to conduct 5 1 simultaneous depositions for any participating party 2 as may be needed to complete discover in this 3 matter. Mr. Hoffman, I would propose that we 4 preserve all objections accept as to form at this 5 time. 6 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, I have the right to do 7 that. The Rules of Civil Procedure of Florida allow 8 me to preserve objections other than those dealing 9 with form or they can not be corrected otherwise, 10 but sometimes I pop off objections and if I do so I 11 will make them short and sweet. 12 Q (By Mr. Garver) Mr. Schlechter, I'm going to 13 be asking you a series of questions. I simply ask that you 14 give me your honest and complete answers to those questions 15 and if you don't understand any question I ask you, please 16 let me know and I will try to rephrase it and put it in a 17 better way. I will probably be asking you about a lot of 18 things that you know more about then I do and please feel 19 free to correct me if I state things in a way that doesn't 20 make sense. 21 Ms. Court Reporter, can you mark this as 22 Schlechter Exhibit Number one. 23 (Thereupon, Schlechter Exhibit 1 was marked 24 for identification by the court reporter.) 25 Q Mr. Schlechter, I have handed you what has 6 1 been marked as Schlechter Exhibit Number 1. Do you 2 recognize this document? 3 A Yes, I recognize it as a document. I assume 4 it is one that I have a like copy of. 5 Q So, have you reviewed the notice of deposition 6 that was provided with respect to this deposition? 7 A Say that again. 8 Q Have you reviewed this document before? 9 A I believe so, yes. 10 Q On pages 5 and 6 of this document there is a 11 list of documents to be produced in connection with this 12 deposition, have you provided all the documents that 13 respond to that list of documents? 14 A To the best of my understanding, yes. 15 Q Do you have any additional documents to 16 provide today in connection with that list? 17 A Not that I know of. 18 Q So, you didn't bring any additional documents 19 with you? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Mr. Schlechter, what do you understand to be 22 the areas on which you will be testifying at a final 23 hearing in this matter? 24 A That as I understand it, it's an economic 25 hardship and that I would be in an adversarial position 7 1 under the way it is presently written and whatever it took 2 to implement it. 3 MR. HOFFMAN: Explain what that means. 4 THE WITNESS: As being economically impacted 5 by this that if it could have been mitigated or 6 changed in a manner that would not be so non 7 adversely effecting. That was the only thing. As I 8 presently understand it, it does economically impact 9 me. 10 Q (By Mr. Garver) When you say it, are you 11 referring to the Everglades Swim Plan? 12 A Right, and it's different ramifications. 13 Q Mr. Schlechter, where do you live? 14 A In Belle Glade. 15 Q How long have you lived in Belle Glade? 16 A Almost continually for six or seven years. 17 Q Were you born in or around Belle Glade? 18 A My parents resided in Belle Glade. I was born 19 in West Palm Beach. 20 Q So, you have lived in Belle Glade pretty much 21 all of your life; is that right? 22 A Except when I went to college. 23 Q Where did you go to college? 24 A The University of Florida. 25 Q What did you study? 8 1 A Agriculture. 2 Q There was a major course of study called 3 agriculture? 4 A There are different colleges at the University 5 of Florida. Agriculture is one of them. My graduates 6 degree -- My degree is in the School of Agriculture with 7 engineering. They had a curriculum labeled engineering 8 under that school. 9 Q What types of course work did you take in that 10 degree? 11 A Those normally associated with a degree in 12 Bachelor of Science and Agricultural Engineering under 13 the -- it's 30 years, it's 30 some years ago. 14 Q Can you remember some of the courses? 15 A Physics, math, a little bit of Chemistry, 16 fertilizers, just normal stuff. 17 Q Where do you work at the present time? 18 A I'm self-employed. 19 Q Is your self-employment incorporated in any 20 manner? 21 A I own W.E. Schlechter & Sons Inc., yes. 22 Q And what is W.E. Schlechter & Sons 23 Incorporated? 24 A A farming corporation. 25 Q I want to ask I don't mean to make you 9 1 uncomfortable. It's important for the transcript here that 2 I finish my questions even if you understand where I am 3 going. 4 How long have you been self-employed? 5 A Right at 30 years. 6 Q Did you commence self-employment immediately 7 after college? 8 A No. 9 Q When? 10 A I worked for my father. I graduated in '58. 11 Worked for my father for five years. He retired and I 12 incorporated, bought some land, went through a diaster and 13 somehow I survived for 30 years. 14 Q What diaster are you referring to? 15 A A storm. The economic realities of living, I 16 suppose you say. 17 Q When was this storm? 18 A In '63, '64, I think. A small storm. 19 Q And what happened that was disastrous in that 20 storm? 21 A I lost my crops. 22 Q What happened to destroy your crops? 23 A Four inches of rain fell in about an hour and 24 a half. 25 Q Your crops were flooded; is that correct? 10 1 A That's right. 2 Q Other than the college courses that you 3 mentioned earlier, have you taken since college any courses 4 or seminars? 5 A Not on a formal basis, no. 6 Q Have you taken any on an informal basis? 7 A Life itself is a course. When you adjust and 8 survive for 30 years, I should have a doctorate degree. I 9 don't mean to be facetious, I am deadly serious. 10 Q I am not trying to -- 11 A When you have to adjust the pretzels so you 12 have some left you have done something right. 13 Q I think that was a good answer, Mr. 14 Schlechter. I'm sure you learned a lot in 30 years. 15 A I went to school we had a slide ruler for 16 calculations and now you have a computer. I would say that 17 is a big difference, but you still come up with the same 18 number. 19 Q Have you done any work at any instruction or 20 seminars through Agricultural Extension Services that sort 21 of thing since college? 22 A No. I do a lot of reading probably, the 23 published information this type of stuff for application. 24 But other than that, no. 25 Q Mr. Schlechter, have you read the March 13, 11 1 1992 Everglades Swim Plan? 2 A When? 3 Q March 13th of '92. It's the Swim Plan that is 4 being challenged in this? 5 A Yes, I have read several. They kind of run 6 together in my mind to be honest with you and per se this 7 document or that document, no, but the implementation of a 8 hypothetical situation -- Is that the one that enumerates 9 80 some uncontested accusations? 10 Q I think you may be referring to one of the 11 petitions challenging the plan. I'm talking -- 12 A This is the one that incorporates the 13 Governor's statements that these are unfinished facts - 14 asinine statements that are supposed to be considered 15 intelligent. 16 Q I am not sure where this list you're referring 17 to. Can you try to remember. 18 A I don't remember. It was just in one of the 19 suits and you're probably very more familiar with them then 20 me. These are the type of things that make me very 21 uncomfortable. 22 Q With respect to the Swim Plan itself that's 23 been written by the South Florida Water Management 24 District, have you read, do you recall reading specifically 25 that document? 12 1 A Probably I have, yes, but I'm not verbatim 2 familiar with it, no. 3 Q And there were also several drafts that 4 proceeded the final draft. Going back I think possibly to 5 1989? 6 A Yes, I saw you at several of the hearings, the 7 workshop hearings, and me being part of CARE were there and 8 certain things we were okay to. 9 Q Have you or has anyone on your behalf ever 10 sent any comments to EAA on the draft of the Everglades 11 Swim Plan to the South Florida Management District? 12 A I voiced concerns personally at their workshop 13 sessions, but other than that as far as directly from W.E. 14 Schlechter & Sons, Inc., no. 15 Q On what occasion have you voiced concerns? 16 A Several of the workshops that I attended. 17 Q Do you recall what the nature of the workshops 18 were? 19 A No, I don't. Implementation of it and when 20 they try to formulate the Rule. 21 Q When you mention the Rule, are you talking 22 about the BMP Rule that was passed in the spring? 23 A Part of that, yes, that would be implemented, 24 yes. 25 Q Have you been to any workshops for other 13 1 actions that the Water Management District was proposing 2 other than for the BMP Rule? 3 A I really don't remember. 4 Q Have you been to any of the workshops that the 5 South Florida Water Management District Board has held with 6 respect to the Everglades Swim Plan itself? 7 A I believe I have, yes. The specific dates, I 8 do not know. 9 Q Do you recall any of the comments or concerns 10 that you voiced with respect to the Rule? 11 A Not really. 12 Q You didn't file a formal challenge to the 13 Rule, did you? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you still have concerns with respect to the 16 Rule? 17 A I would doubt that anybody that would be in my 18 position would have some reservations or concerns. 19 Especially, looking at the way it's written and how it's 20 substantiated or collaborated. I think if you were in the 21 position you would be concerned too. 22 Q We're still just talking about the Rule when 23 you say that; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When was W.E. Schlechter & Son, Incorporated? 14 1 A I believe in the fall of '63. 2 Q And who's W.E. Schlechter? 3 A He was my father. 4 Q How long has the Schlechter family farmed in 5 the Everglades Agricultural area? 6 A Early 20's, late teens. 7 Q Did your father begin the farm? 8 A My grandfather farmed there in the late teens 9 and early 20's. 10 Q What crops does W.E. Schlechter & Sons grow? 11 A It varies, but beans, corns, leaf stuff, cane. 12 We have had celery. 13 Q Is that the same types of crops that the 14 Schlechter family has been farming since -- 15 A It probably varied originally when we started. 16 Probably beans were the big crop. 17 Q Do you have any crop now that you would call 18 the big crop that you grow? 19 A Not really. 20 Q How much land does Schlechter Incorporated 21 farm? 22 A Somewhere around one thousand acres. 23 Q Is that leased land or land that the 24 corporation owns? 25 A They lease a little bit of land, I mean, they 15 1 own a little bit of land, but they lease most of it. 2 Q How much land does the corporation own? 3 A I think sixty acres or in that neighborhood. 4 Q So, the remainder up to one thousand acres or 5 so many would be leased land; is that correct? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. HOFFMAN: Can I make sure this is W.E. 8 Schlechter & Sons Incorporated; is that what your 9 asking? 10 MR. GARVER: Yes. 11 Q (By Mr. Garver) Did W.E. Schlechter & Sons 12 Inc. ever own more land then it owns now? 13 A No. In fact, they own less. The 60 acres was 14 just acquired in the last year or so and some changing 15 around. 16 Q When did W.E. Schlechter & Sons begin leasing 17 land for farming in the EAA? 18 A Let me back up. All right. I am not sure 19 thirty years ago is a long time and I don't have the 20 document. When I had a major financial difficulty in '63, 21 '64, and '65 where W.E. Schlechter & Sons owned land I'm 22 really not sure, but because of the pressure we had to 23 liquidate some land and they could have owned it, but since 24 that time they haven't owned it, from that period of time. 25 Q Is the land that you leased the same from year 16 1 to year or has it varied? 2 A It varies. 3 Q How long are the leases that you have on the 4 land that you farm? 5 A Some of them are five years or seven years. 6 Some of them are year to year or crop to crop. 7 Q I think I should explain when I say, in light 8 of Mr. Hoffman's comments, when I say you, I'm referring 9 primarily to W.E. Schlechter & Sons. 10 A That is the way I'm understanding it, W.E. 11 Schlechter & Sons Incorporated, that is my understanding. 12 Q Do you know how many leases W.E. Schlechter & 13 Sons currently has? 14 A I think two written and two by conveyance - 15 that they have with conveyance or one with conveyance. 16 Q So, is that three all together then? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How does the lease by conveyance work? 19 A They rent some land from me personally and 20 it's my conveyance to make the land available as I rotate 21 cane. 22 Q How many acres do you lease by conveyance 23 under that? 24 A In the neighborhood of seven hundred acres. 25 Q And the two other leases you have, what kind 17 1 of leases are those? 2 A They are like five year leases. I think 3 one -- I believe both of them are about five year leases. 4 Q Where's the land that you, W.E. Schlechter, 5 currently farms located in the EAA? 6 A You've got a chart. 7 MR. HOFFMAN: This is a document that you got. 8 I think you sent it to us or Ms. Ponzoli. Have you 9 seen that? 10 MR. GARVER: I think I'll move on. 11 Q (By Mr. Garver) What types of crops are you 12 currently growing? 13 A The same ones that I mentioned earlier. It 14 varies. Today, what's growing today? Corn, leaf stuff, 15 and cane. 16 Q When you say leaf stuff, what are you 17 referring to? 18 A The salad crops; endive, romaine, red lettuce, 19 iceberg lettuce, beets, Chinese cabbage, you know, the 20 multitude, but you know we're just a little redneck farm. 21 Q Is there a growing season associated with the 22 crops? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What is the growing season? 25 A Generally, planting it in August and usually 18 1 finished by the first of June. 2 Q Would that be true for all the crops that you 3 grow? 4 A With cane you rotate and you and I both 5 know -- 6 Q And how does the cane growing rotations work? 7 A Since, it's annual it grows annually. The 8 rest of them would be sequential from the time their 9 planted from the date of maturity. 10 Q For crops other than sugar cane, do you 11 typically get more than one cultivation per year? 12 A Harvesting per year, yes. Cultivating you do 13 that for weed control. 14 Q This is probably one of those instances I'm 15 getting my terms mixed up. Make sure I am understanding 16 what you are saying. I am glad you corrected me. 17 How many harvests do you get per growing 18 season for the different crops you grow? 19 A Twenty-two, twenty-three depending on the 20 crops. Some crops are 60-day maturity. Some of them grow 21 through the winter some of them don't and then the leaf 22 crops would be when you vacate. So, there could be as much 23 as three crops. 24 Q For each crop harvest, from the preparation of 25 the soil through the harvest, what kind of farming 19 1 operations are required? 2 A You plant, you cultivate, and you harvest and 3 spray, I suppose it to be. I guess any crop would follow 4 in that type of situation. 5 Q What is entailed before you actually plant the 6 crop to the soil preparation? 7 A Somehow the land has to be prepared for 8 harvest whether it's maintained through disks or you disk 9 down and plow whatever you have to do to make a seed bed 10 and it varies with different things depending on the 11 situation you're in. 12 Q Well, what kind of factors would you take into 13 account in considering how to prepare? 14 A Most people would consider a seed bed to be 15 black, fluffy, loose, in that kind of condition. 16 Q And what sort of things would you do to get 17 the soil? 18 A Either plow or disk or ripping. 19 Q What is ripping? 20 A Metal teeth put down in the ground to loosen 21 it up and aerate it or whatever you wish to call it. 22 Q And after you plant a crop, what kind of 23 operations are necessary for cultivating the crop before 24 harvesting? 25 A You cultivate it whether you use a herbicide 20 1 to cultivate it or you use mechanical cultivation whatever 2 it takes to control the weeds you do that to the best of 3 your ability. 4 Q When would you use herbicide and when would 5 you use mechanical cultivation? 6 A I suppose it's a judgment call on what you 7 think would do the best job. 8 Q What sort of factors go into that judgment 9 call? 10 A The weather, the location, the crop and the 11 weeds that are there. 12 Q And what type of situation would you decide to 13 use a herbicide or whether it would be a mechanical 14 cultivation? 15 A A lot of time with the leafy crops we use 16 herbicides and sometimes young cane we use herbicides. 17 Then, if the weeds are larger, we use mechanical 18 cultivation. 19 Q What kind of herbicides do you use? 20 A Atrazine is the only one that comes to mind 21 right off. 22 Q How is atrazine applied? 23 A Ground. A liquid. 24 Q It's a liquid and sprayed from the ground? 25 A Yes. 21 1 Q Is that using trucks or how exactly is that 2 done? 3 A A spray cart or you could do it by air, but 4 the result is basically the same thing. We are so small 5 most of ours is done by ground. 6 Q What are the fertilizer requirements for the 7 various crops that you grow? 8 A They vary. And we generally use the criteria 9 of the IFIS a local station of ours after they run a soil 10 analysis. You got some copies. 11 (Whereupon, Schlechter Exhibit No. 2 was 12 marked for Identification by the Court Reporter.) 13 Q Mr. Schlechter, I have handed you a copy of 14 what's been marked as Schlechter Number 2. You were just 15 referring to a page in here? 16 A The one that says Agricultural Research and 17 Education Center Results and Recommendations and the result 18 of their soil and sampling. 19 Q Could you turn to the one -- to the first of 20 these two Agricultural Research and Education Center 21 documents. There is one that has a signature that says 22 1/17/85 on it. I just want to try and understand what's 23 going on in this. Can you explain the different columns? 24 A The one in the block is enumerations. The 25 next is -- Well, the first is their sample. The first 22 1 column is their sample. 2 Q In the first column, it's their sample? 3 A Their sample. It doesn't say the lab number. 4 Q It's just the designation they have given to a 5 sample of soil taken from land farming? 6 A A sample. Their enumeration of a sample we 7 took into them as they prepared to run a lab analysis, 8 that's that first column. The next one would reflect our 9 field number. The next would be the texture of the mud. 10 The next would be the pH of the soil. Next phosphorus, 11 magnesium, the crop, and then the next is the 12 recommendation and as you see down at the bottom Ken Shuler 13 signed that. He is an extension agent with the Palm Beach 14 Extension Service. 15 Q Now, look at this document I see that under 16 several of these recommended columns. There is a 17 designation zero, does that indicate they recommend no use 18 of fertilizer on those? 19 A That's right. You also see the time of year 20 that is. 21 Q What time of year? 22 A January 15, 1985. 23 Q On the second one of these IFIS reports it has 24 a telephone number near the top of the page handwritten and 25 that appears not to have a recommendation? 23 1 A I think that's where we faxed it too. 2 Q That's my number. I just noted that for 3 identification it appears that there are no recommendations 4 on it? 5 A You notice that is September which would have 6 been the starting of the season and we couldn't determine 7 what crop that we wanted to know the availability of the 8 fertilizer of the fertility of the soil. Also you notice 9 those are different numbers. 10 Q What are different numbers? 11 A The availability of the nutrients. 12 Q I am not sure where I am looking on here to 13 find out what numbers you are referring to. Under the soil 14 test values? 15 A Yes. 16 Q These two reports refer to the same locations? 17 A If you see the field number, it would be the 18 same fields, yes. 19 Q Why would the numbers there be different? 20 A That's what you would expect when you started, 21 you would expect a lower fertility. When you are in the 22 middle of a season you already applied fertilizer. In 23 other words, we were not over fertilizing as some of the 24 literary glimpses of the news that I read. 25 Q I am not sure I've seen those. What have you 24 1 read that is saying that you over fertilized? 2 A I'm a nasty guy. 3 Q Would this second IFIS report that we're 4 looking at, this soil analysis, was done before planting or 5 before any fertilization; is that correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And on the basis of this report, did you make 8 a decision to apply fertilizer? 9 A This is like six years ago and I really can't 10 remember. I suspect we adjusted it based on what was 11 there, yes, but I don't have the supporting material to say 12 what we did do. I put that in there to primarily show you. 13 I think we told you that is in our permit application to 14 show them we were utilizing analysis of soil and adjusting 15 application as according. 16 Q There is another set of documents in here 17 entitled produced by A & L Southern Agricultural 18 Laboratories. 19 A You see there are different type numbers. 20 There is an indication beside them how they would correlate 21 to a standard and then the numbers that you see on the 22 front page are an agronomist's interpretation of what 23 should be there and what he would recommend. 24 Q The first page you're referring to the several 25 pages that have handwritten -- 25 1 A Yes. 2 Q Is the soil analysis that is reflected hereby 3 A & L Southern, the same generally as the report, the soil 4 tests that were done by IFIS and those other reports? 5 A As I understand it they use different types of 6 retraction purposes but they ultimately come up with the 7 same thing. I'm not an agronomist. That's how I 8 understand it and that's what I have been told. 9 Q What types of fertilizers do you use? 10 A What do you mean by types? 11 Q What fertilizers do you use? 12 A As far as I understand your question, we use 13 two types, a liquid and we use a dry. The materials within 14 those is based on recommendation. Other than that, I 15 wouldn't know. 16 Q What types of elements or compounds in the 17 soil are you trying to increase by use of fertilizers? 18 A Are you familiar with soil fertility levels at 19 all? 20 Q I'm afraid I can't. I'm afraid this is an 21 unfair situation. Mr. Schlechter, I only get to answer -- 22 I am sorry if I ask some questions that may seem obvious. 23 A These are what we are testing for and if it's 24 low in these we are going to try to bring those up. They 25 have a bracket that they try to put, I believe, if you were 26 1 to depose Ken Shuler he would say this is what I recommend, 2 it's this. But you have three majors and then you have 3 some minors based on what he thinks or a rule of thumb 4 which supposedly has been documented by IFIS. 5 Q What are the three majors? 6 A N, P, and K. 7 Q Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Are 8 there different fertilizers for phosphorus, nitrogen and 9 potassium, and for the minor elements that you mentioned? 10 A What I understand you to say is there 11 different sources. I'm not an agronomist, but I understand 12 there are different sources or different combinations that 13 you need to get that one. We are an organic soil and we 14 generally apply very little nitrogen otherwise we do based 15 on profile that the experience station has established. 16 Q How do you apply fertilizer to your crops? 17 A I understand you to ask me where do I apply 18 fertilizer. Do I apply it by the crop or broadcast it? I 19 do some of both that is my understanding of the different 20 applications on the fertilizer. Whether we put it under 21 the ground on different crops, we do it different ways. We 22 are moving under our BMP's to be exclusively under a banded 23 application with the hypothetical situation that it takes 24 less for fertilizer to acquire that. I think the jury is 25 still out on that, but we are moving that way. 27 1 Q Why do you believe the jury is still out on 2 and that question? 3 A Such things as phytotoxicity. The plants with 4 certain fertilizers, the chance of making an error in 5 proximity to the root zone, a poor crop. I mean, these are 6 things that we are working on, but I don't believe that has 7 been shown. 8 Q What is phytotoxicity? 9 A A phytotoxicity is exemplified by the plants 10 whether it be chlorotic or dying back or poor yield or poor 11 growth. 12 Q Is that a toxicity that is caused by the 13 fertilizer? 14 A It could be caused by the fertilizer, yes. It 15 could be, you know, any number of things and again we are 16 talking about something that I know nothing about. 17 Q I'm trying to understand. Is there a question 18 that or possibility that banded fertilization will increase 19 phytotoxicity? 20 A There is a question of hot shots or mechanical 21 realities of soil not being homogenous in the sense they 22 might have a rock in it or might be where the man puts the 23 implement down and he may move it. There is no room for 24 error if you put it in band. I am familiar with the 25 condition or location of liquid fertilizer that decreased a 28 1 crop about 30 percent which was at that time of harvest 2 which was a bunch of money so I know it happens. 3 Q Now, is it attributed to using banded 4 fertilization? 5 A Absolutely. No question. In a hypothetical 6 situation, you can go and pick the row out. 7 Q How is fertilizer applied in banded 8 fertilization? 9 A It's put in a bag and then you determine 10 whether you want it by the crop or close proximity to the 11 crop. 12 Q In a band that means it is put in a specific 13 strip on the soil rather than applied evenly over the 14 entire soil; is that correct? 15 A Right, sure. 16 Q And the problem that you just described with a 17 30 percent crop lost, what exactly went wrong with banded 18 fertilization that resulted in that, if you know? 19 A The band application moved over about three 20 inches and got right on the road and just wiped it out. 21 Q When banded fertilization is used, when is the 22 fertilizer applied? 23 A The simplest answer is when you plant it and 24 it is banded you put it in then. If it's a growing crop 25 you grow it. And a banded -- it's not a clear question in 29 1 my understanding. 2 Q In terms of the quantity of fertilizer that is 3 applied, is there any generalization you can make in terms 4 of the comparison between broadcasting and banded 5 fertilization? 6 A My personal preference on banded is for the 7 convenience and also you can put more fertilizer there. In 8 my mind, and again we are talking about my mind, is 9 available to the crop when you stop fertilizer. When you 10 move the soil, you move some of the fertilizer over to the 11 crop as opposed to concentrating in an area that could be 12 detrimental to the root development. 13 Q What's that say in the terms of the quantity 14 of fertilizer you're employing? 15 A I don't think you can band as much as you can 16 broadcast. 17 Q Is that the same as saying when you band you 18 use less fertilizer then when you broadcast? 19 A I think you probably would. You would 20 broadcast a heavily application. We are talking about my 21 understanding and nobody has tested me. 22 Q What do you mean nobody has tested you? They 23 haven't done soil? 24 A No, but they don't pay my bills. When I pass 25 my test, I pay my bills. I am my judge. I am moving it to 30 1 another area that somebody else will be judging me. I have 2 to recognize that this is part of what we are discussing 3 here today. 4 Q When you say you're moving into an area where 5 somebody else will be judging you, who are you referring 6 to? 7 A I guess, I'm referring to you. I think you're 8 the strongest motivater of what is going on there and that 9 is a political reality instead of a scientific realty in my 10 understanding. 11 Q In your experience in farming in the EAA have 12 you noticed any subsidence in the land that W.E. Schlechter 13 has farmed? 14 A What is subsidence? 15 Q Have you noticed any loss of soil or 16 compression of soil or lowering of elevation of the soil? 17 A There is a difference in elevation. I am 18 familiar with the difference in the elevation of the soil. 19 What constituted it, I am not really sure. 20 Q I understand there is a lot of questions about 21 that. 22 What in particular have you noticed in terms 23 of the elevation of soil? 24 A Well, that it's lower. That there is from the 25 bedrock to the top of the soil is lower than it was 20, 30 31 1 years ago. 2 Q Do you know roughly what the difference in 3 elevation is? 4 A I wouldn't. It's a significant amount. 5 Q Would it be under five feet or can you give a 6 rough -- 7 A I don't know. 8 Q -- estimate that way? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q More than one foot? 11 MR. RUSSELL: It has been asked and answered. 12 THE WITNESS: I am not being evasive, I don't 13 know. 14 Q (By Mr. Garver) Do you have any belief as to 15 what's caused the elevation of the soil to go down? 16 A I just don't know. 17 MR. HOFFMAN: I think it was asked and answer. 18 Go ahead, if you have an answer. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. 20 Q (By Mr. Garver) Is W.E. Schlechter & Sons in 21 the Florida Fruit & Vegetable Association? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What is the Florida Fruit & Vegetable 24 Association? 25 A A group of people with light background 32 1 seeking to go together to maximize their like interest in 2 whatever they might be. 3 Q Do you know when the Florida Fruit & Vegetable 4 Association was formed? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q How long has W.E. Schlechter & Sons been 7 formed? 8 A I am not being evasive, but I don't know. 9 Q I appreciate it. I don't know is a perfectly 10 fine answer. 11 A One time we were with them and we stopped 12 because I had a different point of view and I don't 13 remember when we went back with them. 14 Q What was the nature of that disagreement? 15 A I didn't have any money. 16 Q And they required you to pay money for 17 membership? 18 A I was getting workmen's compensation through 19 them and I couldn't pay my bills and so we had to work out 20 a different deal and it was with different people. I did 21 pay my bills. 22 Q What types of services does the Florida Fruit 23 & Vegetable Association provide for members you just 24 mentioned, worker's compensation? 25 A I think a self insurance fund and I think they 33 1 articulate agriculture on a national level which they are 2 affected for. 3 Q Other than lobbying and insuring, are there 4 any other services they provide? 5 A Some of the marketing orders they are the 6 vehicle for it. And I don't remember if they were the 7 vehicle for corn marketing order or not, which we were a 8 part of. 9 Q What would be different about the marketing 10 than traditional marketing? 11 A Well, normally in our area we are familiar 12 with marketing, you know, on a pack analysis level opposed 13 to a state level where you are a controlled market. 14 Q What exactly does the Florida Fruit & 15 Vegetable Association do to facilitate marketing for its 16 farmers? 17 A Again, I'm talking about what I know, 18 absolutely about what I observed. They apparently have the 19 facility to do it. I don't know about the research of what 20 holds a bus up. 21 MR. HOFFMAN: What holds the bus up? I have 22 to catch all these things. 23 Q (By Mr. Garver) What is required for a 24 membership in the Florida Fruit & Vegetable Association? 25 A Dues, based on value of whatever commodities 34 1 that you have and pay dues on. 2 Q Do you know who the largest members of Florida 3 Fruit & Vegetable Association are? 4 A No, sir, I don't. 5 Q Is W.E. Schlechter & Sons a member of any 6 other agricultural organization? 7 A I am sure they are, but none come to mind at 8 this point. 9 Q Are you a member of the Florida Sugar Cane 10 Growers Co-op in Florida? 11 A Sugar Cane Growers Co-op is a member of Sugar 12 Cane League. W.E. Schlechter is a member, yes. 13 Q And do you rely on either the Florida Sugar 14 Cane League or Sugar Cane Co-op for marketing your sugar 15 cane? 16 A Sugar Cane Growers markets my sugar cane just 17 as Pioneer Growers markets my vegetables. 18 Q What is pioneer, I didn't catch the name? 19 A Pioneer is a Co-op in the vegetable arena like 20 Sugar Cane Growers are in the sugar industry. 21 Q What services does Pioneer -- 22 A Marketing. 23 Q What permits are required by W.E. Schlechter 24 to farm in the EAA? 25 A I don't believe W.E. Schlechter & Sons has to 35 1 have any permits to farm in the EAA. 2 Q Does W.E. Schlechter have any permits? 3 A They have to have a license, I think, by the 4 state of Florida, but I don't think it designates the EAA. 5 Q Does W.E. Schlechter have any water management 6 for water related permits? 7 A No, the land they own is in the 298 District. 8 The 298 District might have it which would take care of the 9 land they own. 10 Q And the 298 District, the permits they have, 11 would that include any consumptive use permits or service 12 water permits? 13 A I am not sure. 14 Q W.E. Schlechter & Sons itself has no service 15 water management permit; is that correct? 16 A Right. 17 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons applied for permits 18 under the new BMP Rule? 19 A No. 20 Q Why? 21 A They were not required to. 22 Q Why are they not required to? 23 A As I understand the Rule the landowner is 24 required, and the land they own is covered by 298 District. 25 Q Is it correct to the extent, the land that 36 1 W.E. Schlechter & Sons farms requires a permit under that 2 new BMP Rule or somebody else applying for a permit; is 3 that correct? 4 A Right. 5 Q Do you know if such a permit has been applied 6 for? 7 A Yes, it has been applied for. 8 Q Who made the application? 9 A I did. 10 Q You did? 11 A I personally 12 Q Now, we are talking about W.E. Schlechter & 13 Sons Incorporated or John O. Schlechter? 14 A You know that I own land and you know the land 15 that was starred is my land personally and you probably 16 know that I made an application. 17 Q Do you know how much land you own and now I'm 18 talking about, you, John O. Schlechter not, you, W.E. 19 Schlechter & Sons Incorporated? 20 A My wife and myself own 19 hundred and some odd 21 acres and myself as a member of the corporation own another 22 25 -- I mean 640 acres and as an aggregate group we own 25 23 hundred. And I made application to the Water Management 24 under that and I have a consumptive use permit as an 25 individual as a discharge under that previous to that. 37 1 Q Do you lease land to W.E. Schlechter & Sons? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How much land do you lease them? 4 A It varies, as I told you earlier, as I rotate 5 cane in and around. We will be moving to implement a 6 certain amount of BMP to both of our mutual advantages. 7 Q When you applied for a permit under the new 8 BMP Rule, did you do the early base on options? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What is your understanding of how the early 11 base on options works? 12 A At 25 percent deduction after monitoring the 13 first year it has to be 96. I don't know if it's the first 14 or the lateral or whatever. 15 Q Do you have any consultants help you prepare 16 that application? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you do it yourself? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And other than W.E. Schlechter & Sons is your 21 application under the new BMP Rule made in conjunction with 22 any other land owners or farmers? 23 A Who are we talking about now? 24 Q I'm talking about the permits that you applied 25 for? 38 1 A Which, you as an individual or as a 2 corporation? 3 Q When I say, you, I'd like to refer to either 4 you or the corporation unless that's confusing. 5 A You know, it is and there is several other 6 things. I am here to be deposed on W.E. Schlechter. I am 7 not being argumentative, but -- 8 MR. HOFFMAN: I think he answered the question 9 before that that there was more than one entity. I 10 don't understand the question either. 11 Q (By Mr. Garver) My question, I guess, is 12 related to you since you made the permits? 13 A As an individual? 14 Q Right. 15 A If you read my application to the Water 16 Management District, I have a supporting document that on 17 my application the back section is observed by A.J. 18 Sullivan which I am part owner in and they subordinated it 19 there on the back. So, that corporation and me as an 20 individual have went together to make one application for a 21 master permit. 22 Q Are you a part owner of or an owner of any 23 other corporations besides the one you just mentioned. 24 What was the name of that one again? 25 MR. HOFFMAN: I will object. I instruct the 39 1 witness not to answer about any other work in the 2 corporations he might own. I don't think that is 3 relative to anything. I was letting him answer. To 4 ask him broad questions of what he owns or any 5 corporations he has an interest in that is beyond 6 whether this Swim Plan is a valid document or not. 7 I will instruct the witness not to answer. I have 8 no idea what his answer would be. It's way beyond. 9 MR. GARVER: You're instructing him not to 10 answer? 11 MR. HOFFMAN: I will make it very straight. 12 You asked him a broad question what other 13 corporations does he have any interest in? I don't 14 know, we can read it back and I instruct the witness 15 not to answer that. You have no interest in any 16 businesses that he owns, in general, in the world. 17 It's not relevant to this case and so I instruct him 18 not to answer the question. I didn't think whatever 19 else he owns in the world is a matter before this 20 tribunal. 21 MR. GARVER: Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Schlechter said 22 right at the beginning of the deposition that he was 23 primarily here to testify regarding the economic 24 hardships that would result from the Swim Plan. I 25 believe that creates quite a wide range of 40 1 relevance. I think your instruction is uncalled for 2 given the nature of Mr. Schlechter's proposed 3 testimony. 4 MR. HOFFMAN: I will give you one more comment 5 W.E. Schlechter & Sons Incorporated is petitioner in 6 the case. He was an officer with W.E. Schlechter & 7 Sons Incorporated. What you asked him, what he was 8 going to testify to, he doesn't know that because he 9 and I didn't go over that. When you say economics, 10 I am sure we can talk about the matters we talked in 11 briefs and matters dealing with the spending of tax 12 buyers money which would be his money. The 13 potential of taking his property or taking 14 properties so they couldn't use it those kind of 15 economic things, you didn't get into those and those 16 are the economic things we are talking about. What 17 corporations he has an interest in has no bearing on 18 W.E. Schlechter & Sons Incorporated. My statement 19 stands. We can take it to the hearing officer and 20 decide. I'm telling you that question is too broad 21 and has nothing to do with why we are here. If you 22 think it does then fine we will argue it in brief. 23 You're a great guy and I have no problem with you I 24 just -- 25 MR. GARVER: I just wanted to get all those 41 1 words on the record. 2 MR. HOFFMAN: I have more words, I will put in 3 writing. I am a formal journalist. 4 MR. GARVER: Are we ready to take a short 5 break? 6 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 7 MR. GARVER: Back on the record. 8 Q (By Mr. Garver) Mr. Schlechter, you were 9 describing earlier the diaster that occurred back in 1963 10 or 4 and you lost a crop to flooding. Can you describe to 11 me exactly what happened during that flood that caused the 12 crop to be lost? 13 A A hurricane passed over and passed something 14 like -- it was a small hurricane from the west - the 15 southwest to the northeast and dropped about four inches of 16 rain. I had a polrain (phonetic) of radishes and four 17 inches of rain is more than they could swallow. Having 18 just started out on my own, I didn't have the financial 19 resource to liquidate it. I sold the land and did whatever 20 had to be done. 21 Q Did you do anything to try and get the water 22 off of your crops when the hurricane was coming over? 23 A All that I was allowed to do, you know, the 24 discharge you're only allowed to discharge one acre per 24 25 hour period and you have four acre inches that means that 42 1 surplus is standing on the top of the ground, under 2 management. 3 Q Do you know or have you heard that that storm 4 described in terms of its frequency? 5 A No, sir, but it was a small storm in how they 6 were rating it. I don't think you appreciate the fact that 7 the thunderstorms can drop four or five inches over a small 8 area in a relative short period of time. Three years ago 9 we were going through a drought and I had a two to three 10 weeks apart with two inches of rain, that will annihilate 11 you. 12 Q That was another storm or something back in 13 January 1991; isn't that right? 14 A January of '91, oh, yeah. Yeah, a frontal of 15 water. But that was large I'm talking about smaller. I'm 16 talking about something that would be a like two or three 17 mile square deal. 18 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons ever lost a crop to 19 flooding other than back in 1963? 20 A Sure. If you farm, you will lose it to the 21 water. 22 Q How often has that happened? 23 A Less often. In other words, I survived so it 24 has happened less often then I succeeded. 25 Q Do you know about how many floods you have had 43 1 that cause you to lose a crop? 2 A I don't know how familiar you are with the 3 area, but it's not unusual to get a couple of inches of 4 rain over a very short period of time, and I mean it's not 5 something that would be charted or anything, but the 6 thunderstorms will kick out a bunch of water and, I mean, 7 if you get flooded you get flooded. 8 Q Do you know how much rain you would have to 9 get per hour before you get flooding that will cause crop 10 damage? 11 A We generally can handle a couple inches. 12 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons lost a crop due to 13 drought conditions? 14 A No. 15 Q I would like you to describe if you could how 16 water is managed on the farm which W.E. Schlechter & Sons 17 farms in terms of pumps and the size of the acre you are 18 serving? 19 A The land that's owned by W.E. Schlechter & 20 Sons -- 21 Q When you say owned or leased? 22 A That's owned by W.E. Schlechter & Sons is 298 23 District and that's the water elevation that is leased by 24 W.E. Schlechter & Sons. Heretofore, should it start 25 raining we kick the water out. Within the last couple of 44 1 years we were striving to move the water around the inside. 2 Inside of our pumping capabilities we have three miles or 3 four miles of main laterals with another 8 or 10 miles of 4 supporting laterals and we are putting pumpings on half 5 sections to control the water independently. 6 Q So, if I understand you correctly, you're 7 adding pumpings to your Water Management System to enable 8 you to control the water better? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q How many pumps will you be adding? 11 A I really don't know the total. We are making 12 the pumps portable and so it might be two or three or four 13 I just don't know. That's one of the things we are working 14 with IFIS on to see what we need to do. 15 Q At the present time, what's the smallest unit 16 of land in size that you use for water management? 17 A What do you mean? 18 Q What size area would the last pump in the 19 chain of pumps serve in terms of moving water on and off? 20 A As small as a block for planting or 21 transplanting or something where you would elevate the 22 water in a lateral to pump out. We have some overhead 23 irrigation, we can put water on the top of the ground so if 24 we want to raise the water in a lateral, you have a 20 inch 25 block would be the smallest way you have created an 45 1 artificial field. 2 Q I think that's what I meant. Do you manage 3 the water differently for different crops? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What would be some of those differences? 6 A As I just enumerated, we elevate the water 7 when we are trying to plant so we can get germination, and 8 once we get germination we drop the water down, and when we 9 get near harvest we drop the water even lower than we need 10 to. 11 Q Does that sequence of lowering the water table 12 apply to any crop that you grow? 13 A It probably applies to all of them. I mean 14 there would be the normal thing that depending on the 15 characteristics of the weather. The reverse of it could be 16 true at this time of the year when it's raining every day 17 you're pumping. When it's dry you're elevating. You know, 18 the best place to get a crop is go to the grocery store, 19 but if you get outside the grocery store you have to 20 control some of the environment. 21 Q How do you gauge the water table elevation on 22 your fields? 23 A By guessing and by-goly, I suppose. 24 Q Do you have any water table elevation 25 monitors? 46 1 A Generally, the rock is relatively the same 2 elevation. I don't know if you are familiar with our area, 3 but we have a limestone rock area then we have muck on top 4 of it and elevation would generally be the same if you were 5 down to the rock and you were getting maximized drainings, 6 and then you eyeball it and that's what I get paid for, I 7 guess, to make that determination through experience, color 8 of the dirt, and this type of thing. 9 Q What types of things other than color of the 10 dirt would you look at to try to decide that? 11 A The response to the plants. 12 Q What in particular do you look in terms of the 13 response of the plants to decide whether you are going to 14 raise the water table or lower it? 15 A The age of the plant, the color of the plant, 16 the position of the plant. Again, I'm talking in an area 17 that I don't have the qualifications to talk specifically, 18 but I rely on my experience and those are the criterias 19 that I use. 20 Q How often would you go out to a field and look 21 at the crop and look at the soil to decide? 22 A Daily. 23 Q So, you make daily adjustments in the water 24 level if necessary; is that correct? 25 A If necessary. 47 1 Q Does W.E. Schlechter & Sons retain any of 2 their drainage water it has on any of the fields or make 3 arrangements for use on other types of fields? 4 A You probably don't want to hear that. In the 5 infinite wisdom of some of these people in the Water 6 Management decided there is too much evaporation in the 7 summertime. When we are trying to flood, they said you 8 can't flood you have to pump it off. I guess, we're yet to 9 determine how much we are gonna retain. We are operating 10 under the situation we will retain however much we can. We 11 don't know how much we can retain. 12 Q You feel like the Water Management District is 13 telling you conflicting things? 14 A Let's be honest, they didn't know what they 15 were talking about. We had a chairman fly over all and say 16 hey all this water is bad, yakity, yakity, yak. It didn't 17 cost them anything, it cost me some money. 18 Q Does W.E. Schlechter & Sons Incorporated do 19 any water quality monitoring at the time? 20 A W.E. Schlechter & Sons does no water quality 21 monitoring. 22 Q Is there any water quality monitoring that's 23 done in connection with the land that W.E. Schlechter & 24 Sons farms? 25 A You bet. 48 1 Q What type of water quality monitoring is done 2 on those fields? 3 A That is made to comply with a Swim Rule, I 4 believe, it is and for the early base line. Both the 5 calibration and discharge of water and the nutrient 6 discharge is my understanding. And we were running both 7 flow portionally and time portionally. 8 Q Who's doing that monitoring? 9 A IFIS is doing one, and the Co-op has a 10 contract to do the other. 11 Q Do you know who the Co-op's contract is with? 12 A They are doing it themselves. I don't know 13 who they contracted with. They were doing the lateral and 14 physical parameters, but you have that information with 15 water management it's all in that application. 16 Q I am just asking if you know. 17 A No. 18 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons changed any of its 19 agricultural practices or water management practices for 20 water quality reasons in the last four years? 21 A Yes, sir, they are enumerated in that 22 application also, but we've moved towards the retaining of 23 water, the elevation of the water, the passing through of 24 the water, and the releasing of the water. I don't think 25 you appreciate the fact that if your whole life was out on 49 1 that farm and it started raining and you would pump. I 2 know you're from a city and you don't understand that, but 3 there is no other repository in the assets that I have, 4 other than, what's growing out there. When it starts 5 raining heretofore I discharge water. Now, I guess I will 6 be better educated when I discharge water. It might not be 7 economically, but that remains to be seen. 8 Q Are you or have you ever been an officer with 9 the Florida Fruit and Vegetable Association? 10 A W.E. Schlechter & Sons has never been an 11 officer. Now, where do we go from there? In my capacity 12 with W.E. Schlechter & Sons, I have never been. 13 Q Have you yourself? 14 A As an individual in conjunction with another 15 corporation, I have been officer in and I am not sure what 16 their relation -- Again, we are talking about nothing that 17 has pertinency to this. I'm not hiding it, I was chairman 18 of the celery - Florida Celery Committee for several years, 19 I think. 20 Q Were you either on behalf of yourself or 21 another entity every an officer on any other agricultural 22 organization? 23 A CARE which is an affiliate that it's 24 instituted in this suit, I think, I am chairman. 25 Q What is that organization? 50 1 A CARE, Concerned Agricultural Reserve -- or 2 whatever the acronym name is. CARE, and it's the vegetable 3 growers in the Everglades and trying to implement their 4 position in compliance with whatever is coming out of this. 5 Q What impact do you believe or implementation 6 of Everglades Swim Plan will have on W.E. Schlechter & Sons 7 Inc? 8 A From the worse to the best. From the worse, 9 they'll put us out of business. I mean, you have heard 10 some of those babbling idiots. Now, you know as to say 11 this is what they say I think you read the economic study 12 and you have seen their hypothetical situation. You know, 13 we carry a certain tax load and it's heavy and if you 14 triple that tax load which would amount to it would put you 15 in a position you would not make a living. 16 Q You said that is the worse; is that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you said worse to the best. What would be 19 the best? 20 A The best is some reasonable application to 21 monitoring and controlling and meet the objects, but I 22 think that this thing is so politically motivated that they 23 don't know what their objects are. They have depicted big 24 sugar as horrible as it is to have money and it's a 25 necessity in a capitalistic society to have money, but yet 51 1 they kick them as it is some disease that they have. So, 2 any application of that is, you know, I don't mind you 3 kicking them, but let me alone. 4 Q Your petition challenging the Swim Plan states 5 that the use of stormwater treatment areas to achieve 6 environment protection goals almost require use of your 7 real property. Do you agree with that statement? 8 A Yes, I believe so. 9 Q In what way do you believe using STAs would 10 require use of your property? 11 A Where are they gonna build the STAs? 12 Q Will the STAs as you understand them be built 13 in areas where W.E. Schlechter & Sons Inc. is farmed? 14 A If they're built where they are designed now 15 they will not be, but if I can't reach the 25 percent 16 reduction I will have to retain the water which by its very 17 nature would require taking out of production some of our 18 land, yes. 19 Q At the present time, do you have land that's 20 not in production? 21 A No. 22 Q The land that you lease or own for farming is 23 used a hundred percent other than drains and canals and 24 levies? 25 A Every acre that I own or that W.E. Schlechter 52 1 leases produces a cane crop. It produces at least one and 2 generally two crops and sometimes three crops. You know, I 3 don't mean to be privy, but we have to make a living, you 4 know, and that doesn't seem to be a valid point. In my 5 position, it's a necessity. 6 Q How much of the property that you want to 7 lease do you believe you will have to take out of 8 production at this one? 9 A I don't know because there are so many 10 variables. When they talk about land in charging one 11 hundred dollars an acre and I can't rent land for one 12 hundred dollars an acre this is almost one hundred percent 13 of taking of land, in my opinion. 14 Q How many employees does W.E. Schlechter have? 15 A Year round or sporadic? We are a small 16 agricultural crop that use harvesting labor that drives our 17 payroll up, but I would think we would have 15 employees 18 year round and our payroll is over one million dollars in a 19 year with harvesting and everything. So, somewhere between 20 that if that helps. 21 Q Does W.E. Schlechter & Sons participate in any 22 federal programs, support programs, or other programs? 23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. And this gets into 24 an area that the hearing officer said that is not 25 part of this case. Whether they get into support 53 1 programs or not I instruct the witness not to answer 2 and take it to the hearing officer to see whether 3 it's an appropriate question or not. 4 Q (By Mr. Garver) Do you provide any information 5 regarding operations at W.E. Schlechter to the Department 6 of Agriculture? 7 A Land use, I think, we do. 8 Q What type of land use information do you 9 provide? 10 A I think ASC has its crop production in grains 11 and cane. 12 Q Just so I understand this correctly. You 13 provide information on the land use that you use for grain 14 and sugar cane production; is that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is there any other particular information that 17 you provide to the Agricultural Department? 18 A There is some statistical, but I'm not sure. 19 And most of it doesn't say by law so I throw it in the 20 garage. I'm not a corporate person. 21 Q In other words, the Department of Agriculture 22 sometimes asks for information that you would only give 23 voluntarily, in that case, you don't? 24 A I don't give voluntarily. 25 Q The land use information that you mention 54 1 that's required; is that correct? 2 A There is a hidden implementation, yes. 3 Q What's the hidden implementation? 4 A At some future date. 5 Q At some future date what? 6 A The information could be pertinent. I don't 7 know what it means. I told you I'm not a lawyer. You 8 asked why, and I told you why that's it. 9 Q So, to understand, the US Agriculture didn't 10 require information on crop production or other 11 information; is that correct? 12 A I think my understanding is that in 13 conjunction with an application to use their programs, they 14 require a determination I have not used it, but yes I 15 comply because at some future date I may want to use it. 16 It's very foolish now to let them pay you and turn around 17 and pay taxes back on all your swapping money. So, I just 18 do it. 19 Q Your partition contains 85 allegedly disputed 20 issues in fact, are you familiar with those? 21 A Not verbatim. 22 Q I am not going to go through all 85 of these. 23 There are a few that I want to ask you some questions 24 about. One issue your partition identifies is whether 25 hydroperiod is the primary source of vegetative changes 55 1 purportedly identified in the Park, EPA and the Refuge by 2 the Plan. Do you have any beliefs or knowledge regarding 3 that issue? 4 A I think the hydroperiods are a significant 5 part of it, and from my advantage point, they are all of 6 it. It is a prejudice point of view, but I don't know and 7 I don't think the reverse no, sir. 8 Q Why do you believe that hydroperiod is all the 9 problem? 10 A Apparently, Dr. Richardson makes it a very, 11 very significant part of it, and I think the implementation 12 is why did the hydroperiod if we are not supposed to have 13 to pay it why is the hydroperiod itself a problem. So, if 14 it wants to be done say it's hydroperiod and you all pay 15 for it. 16 Q So, you would rely primarily on 17 Dr. Richardson's studies; is that correct? 18 A I think Dr. Richardson has voiced a position 19 that implies that it has a substantial part of effect, yes. 20 Q Have you read any of Dr. Richardson's studies? 21 A I'm also on the EPD Board, what do you think? 22 MR. HOFFMAN: Answer his question. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 Q (By Mr. Garver) What is the EPD? 25 A Everglades Protection District. 56 1 Q And you're a board member of EPD? 2 A Yes, a supervisor. 3 Q What does the EPD do? 4 A Collected taxes to help you all build your ENR 5 Project. 6 Q What else does EPD do? 7 A It does research, I think, it's an 8 implementation, legislative implementation. 9 Q Did the EPD also hire Dr. Richardson to do 10 study of the Everglades? 11 A They funded him, yes. 12 Q Another issue that you identify in the 13 partition is whether there is environmental damage in or 14 threatening the Park, EPA or the Refuge as a result of 15 nutrient levels in surface water flowing into those areas 16 from the EAA? 17 A You bet your sweetie I have an opinion. 18 Q What is that opinion? 19 A That it hasn't. I looked at the report that 20 was given to the Water Management District and it said for 21 the past year there was no phosphorus within their criteria 22 of established level year after year after year and we are 23 specifically talking about phosphorus. It makes me very 24 unhappy. 25 Q What report in particular? 57 1 A Every month the managers at the water 2 department get an analysis of what went on and it makes a 3 statement and it enumerates several items and phosphorus is 4 one of them. It enumerates those that violate them in the 5 preceding months. 6 Q Another issue you identified is whether the 7 vegetative changes the Plan finds are caused by the 8 introduction of nutrients from the EAA. Do you have an 9 opinion with respect to that? 10 A I do not think that there is significant 11 information to support contention, right. I think it is a 12 political - it's mainly motivated for politicians. There 13 is no Florida scientist only. There is nobody doing work 14 in the EAA except Dr. Richardson. 15 Q What do you believe is the political 16 motivation behind those findings? 17 A To perpetuate a political career. 18 Q Whose political career? 19 A The attorney general. 20 Q U.S. Attorney Dexter Layton? 21 A U.S. Attorney or acting U.S. Attorney. 22 Q Was it Dexter Layton? 23 A You bet your sweetie. 24 Q At the present time in the capacity as U.S. 25 Attorney? 58 1 A I don't think so. 2 Q Now, that Dexter Layton is no longer in that 3 capacity you believe that the findings in the Swim Plan are 4 politically motivated still? 5 MR. HOFFMAN: Excuse me, as they say on 6 television counsel you can make these things go on 7 for days. I think, if you are trying to increase 8 our attorney fees that may be one thing. You asked 9 the questions about that and brought it. I think 10 that we are off field when you are asking a serious 11 of questions about Dexter Layton whether this 12 witness likes him or dislikes him. I don't 13 understand the point of it and I object. You can 14 answer the question, but I think we are wasting our 15 money here. 16 MR. GARVER: For clarification, I'm asking 17 follow up questions. I realize Mr. Schlechter isn't 18 an expert. 19 THE WITNESS: I am not an expert on anything. 20 MR. HOFFMAN: If he makes you one maybe you 21 will be. Whether Dexter Layton is a jerk or not a 22 jerk or an officer or not an officer I agree with 23 that more strongly then Mr. Schlechter. My 24 objection -- I am taking time too, so I will quit. 25 Q (By Mr. Garver) My question was whether you 59 1 still believe that the Swim Plan is politically motivated? 2 A Yes, sure. 3 Q What other than the role of Dexter Layton 4 makes you believe that the Swim Plan is politically 5 motivated? 6 A The areas that it has taken to solve it. 7 There is no peculation. If they were serious about 8 straightening them out, they could be straightened out. 9 Q How could they be straightened out? 10 A Try to straighten them out instead of paying 11 taxes on somebody that is almost Hercules. 12 Q How without putting that strain on other 13 people? 14 A For nothing I am going to tell you this, they 15 spend five million dollars on the ER Project to build a 16 canal and had a pump sitting within a half mile. Whatever 17 those pumps do is artificial. To move that water they 18 build the canal one half mile over. They would have saved 19 five million dollars. Do you think they were serious about 20 moving water time after time after time. You see that I 21 mean they are just not serious. 22 Q Getting back to what we were talking about. 23 I'm just understanding your answer to be that they could -- 24 A They could reach what they want to reach 25 realistic, if they want to. They didn't want to. 60 1 Q I'm trying to understand how you believe that 2 problem could be fixed. I am just trying to understand if 3 they were serious about straightening it out how you 4 believe doing it? 5 A Use some resources in the water watchment 6 areas. 7 Q In the water conservation areas? 8 A Sure. 9 MR. HOFFMAN: I want to pose another 10 objection. The Swim Plan says that STAs are 11 required. The word "required "is used. There is no 12 flexibility about the Swim Plan unless the Justice 13 Department is now telling us that there are 14 alternatives to the Swim Plan which are not in it. 15 This is totally irrelevant asking this gentleman 16 what thoughts he might have as to alternatives and I 17 just object to this continual wasting of time trying 18 to delay this deposition and dragging it on and 19 cost. I think it's planned. I think it's 20 definitely planned to make this thing last long as 21 possible. I think you are trying to force us out of 22 the case. I think that's what I think, sir, and I 23 am not kidding. I don't find you funny any more. I 24 think you need to proceed and get this done and stop 25 jerking my client. 61 1 MR. GARVER: You could believe whatever you 2 want. 3 MR. HOFFMAN: I want you to know whoever told 4 you to do this -- Maybe we can find out. Go ahead. 5 Q (By Mr. Garver) Mr. Schlechter, another issue 6 whether it is feasible to collect and treat stormwater from 7 the EAA to the levels "required" by the Plan to better than 8 rainfall purity. Do you have any opinions with respect to 9 that? 10 A I don't think any rational person would expect 11 it. 12 Q Another issue identified in the in your 13 partition is whether the programs "required" by the Plan 14 will result in adverse environmental impacts to other 15 areas. Do you have an opinion with respect to that? 16 A No. 17 Q Another issue identified is whether the Water 18 Conservation Area reservoirs may be operated for 19 environmental purposes as required by the Plan and still 20 perform regional flood control and water supply functions 21 necessary to protect the lands in the EAA and other parts 22 of South Florida. Do you have a belief with respect to 23 that area? 24 A As to what position? 25 Q As to what the correct response of that issue 62 1 would be? 2 A I think they are run prejudicial right now. I 3 think they are in fact filtering. 4 Q In what way? 5 A Because water in and because the Everglades 6 National Park is clear. 7 Q Another issue you have identified whether the 8 effects of the urbanized lower east coast is a cause of the 9 environmental conditions the Plan purports to address. Do 10 you of have an opinion or belief with respect to that 11 issue? 12 A I think they're caused, yes. 13 Q What makes you believe they are caused? 14 MR. HOFFMAN: Excuse me. Are the next few 15 questions going to be from the petition? 16 MR. GARVER: Yes, they are. 17 MR. HOFFMAN: Go ahead and answer that I am 18 going to take a break. 19 THE WITNESS: They are self-evident that they 20 are there. I think I pointed out in one of those 21 flood fields they had 14 inches of rain in Fort 22 Lauderdale and the water went to the water 23 assessment area you know it and I know it. 24 Q (By Mr. Garver) Another issue you identified 25 is whether the agency's actions and programs "required" by 63 1 the Plan will cause adverse effects on the water supply and 2 flood control in the region. Do you have a belief as to 3 this issue? 4 A Very possibly could, yes. 5 Q What adverse effects do you believe might be 6 caused by the Plan? 7 A That the water would not be available. 8 Q Might not be available for what? 9 A You understand I know nothing about this. 10 I'll be glad to spend the time to talk to you. We are 11 talking about evaluations. When you expose more to 12 evaluations that might not be the case, you know, but I 13 understand that the more water you expose the more you 14 evaporate. I understand it's lost if it evaporates. 15 Q I'm trying to save time by not going through 16 everyone of these issues but W.E. Schlechter is a 17 petitioner here. 18 MR. RUSSELL: If you are asking for 19 speculation or if it's based on something that your 20 experts are going to say short circuit everything, 21 but everything is being said so you might want to do 22 that instead of going into speculation obviously 23 that is. 24 THE WITNESS: I already said -- 25 MR. RUSSELL: Answer it that way and short 64 1 circuit it. 2 Q (By Mr. Garver) Another issue in your 3 partition is whether the EAA drainage waters contain excess 4 nutrients. Do you have a belief with respect to that 5 issue? 6 A Do I have an opinion of whether they contain 7 excess? I don't think they contain excess I think they 8 contain some nutrients. 9 Q Why don't you believe those are excess 10 nutrients? 11 A Who's to determine what's excess? 12 Q Do you believe it's a certain 13 characterization; is that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Another issue you identified is whether the 16 levels of phosphorus in waters flowing from the EAA are the 17 most immediate water quality concern facing the Everglades 18 system, include the EPA. Do you have a belief with respect 19 to that issue? 20 A I think the jury is out. 21 Q Does that mean that the levels of phosphorus 22 maybe the most immediate it has not been determined yet; is 23 that correct? 24 A It could be. Again, I'm not an expert and I 25 don't know, but the information I have seen has not been 65 1 documented that that is the criteria. 2 Q Again, Mr. Schlechter, I have tried to be 3 selective in what I am going to cover here. So, I don't 4 take up more time then is necessary. Another issue you 5 identified is whether EAA drainage flows directly into the 6 Refuge. Do you have a belief with respect to this issue? 7 A Out of the Wildlife Refuge? 8 Q Yes, that's correct. 9 A I'm sure some of it does. Do I think the 10 Wildlife Refuge is a natural resource? No, I think it's a 11 reservoir. 12 MR. HOFFMAN: Try not to volunteer off the top 13 of your head thoughts. We will be here longer. 14 Q (By Mr. Garver) Another issue you identified 15 whether the water quality within the water conservation 16 areas is adversely affecting the ecology of the park. Do 17 you have a belief with respect to that issue? 18 A The park? I don't think there is any 19 degregation there. 20 Q Another issue is whether the unique flora and 21 fauna of the Park are in need of restoration. Do you have 22 a belief with respect to that issue? 23 A Come see, come sye (phonetic). 24 Q I am not sure I understand what you mean? 25 A I don't think the conditions are out of the 66 1 ordinary which you respect in the environment they were 2 built is my position. 3 Q Another issue you have identified is whether 4 the district may alter or otherwise limit the use of 5 private agricultural lands in order to provide regional 6 environmental filtration function. Do you have a belief 7 with respect to that issue? 8 A I think we discussed that earlier when I told 9 you I might have to retain some water on my land. I guess, 10 that's what that statement is saying. 11 Q I guess what the statement is saying whether 12 that kind of alteration is permissible for the district to 13 do? 14 A I don't think that's in my judgment. 15 Q Mr. Schlechter, when we were speaking earlier 16 you mentioned some comments that you believe that I had 17 made at some of the Water Management District workshops and 18 do you recall that conversation which we just had earlier 19 today? 20 A Yes, we were discussing whether you could fine 21 tune a percentage of phosphorus as much as one percent. I 22 told you I did not think I could or that the industry could 23 or the people could. 24 Q When I made that comment at the workshop, did 25 you voice any concern? 67 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you recall what you said? 3 A Basically I didn't think it existed. I didn't 4 think that degree of technology exists. 5 Q Do you recall at this time any other comments 6 that you made at those workshops? 7 A That is the basic essence of it. We were 8 discussing the implementation of BMP whether BMP could 9 facilitate a reduction. I believe that is what the whole 10 thing was about it has to do with more. 11 Q The BMP that W.E. Schlechter & Sons 12 Incorporated is planning to implement so called BMP as a 13 result of the new BMP Rule; is that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Do believe that implementation of those BMP's 16 will cause an economic hardship? 17 A I explained to you how it could, yes. 18 Q I didn't understand your earlier answer to be 19 applying only to BMP Rule. Is it your belief then that 20 implementation of the BMP rule alone could cause W.E. 21 Schlechter & Sons to go out of business? 22 A There is a possibility, yes. 23 Q Has W.E. Schlechter & Sons done any financial 24 assessments in connection with the permanent application 25 made on the BMP Rule? 68 1 A No. 2 Q Are you aware of any financial assessments at 3 all made with respect to farming in the EAA as going to the 4 economic hardships from the BMP Rule? 5 A No. 6 MR. GARVER: I will state for the record here 7 that I believe the United States has been quite 8 accommodating to Mr. Hoffman in agreeing to do these 9 depositions sequentially. In no way are we 10 attempting to drag out these depositions or ask any 11 questions that we believe to be irrelevant or 12 unnecessary, given that Mr. Hoffman has instructed 13 the witness on at least one or two occasions during 14 this deposition not to answer questions. 15 I have no further questions at this time, but 16 I reserve my right to continue this deposition. 17 MR. RUSSELL: I object to continuation of the 18 deposition. The depo has been scheduled, you asked 19 questions, the area that you try to delve into has 20 already been heard by the hearing officer. The 21 hearing officer in fact stated at that time that 22 economic issues and the type of information you're 23 trying to get out of him have nothing to do with the 24 Swim Challenge and at such time they do we will 25 entertain a motion at that time that has not been 69 1 done by the U.S. This deposition should be 2 concluded. 3 MR. GARVER: I suppose your objection is 4 noted. 5 MR. HOFFMAN: For the record, since I'm his 6 lawyer I should state a similar objection and I mean 7 on the basis that there is no need to continue the 8 deposition. If the people taking depositions would 9 like to move to compel on an issue that I did 10 instruct my client not to answer of course that 11 would be something that could be brought before the 12 hearing officer by motion. I object to a broad 13 continuing of the objection. I think that you did 14 culture your statement in that request. The record 15 might reflect, but I want to make my objection. 16 MR. GARVER: I have no further questions at 17 this time. 18 MR. HOFFMAN: You have a right to read this 19 deposition. In this case, it might be worth reading 20 to see that there isn't any problem. 21 THE WITNESS: Read. 22 (Thereupon, the deposition was concluded at 23 11:30 o'clock p.m.) 24 25 70 1 _______________________________ Witness. 2 3 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME THIS DAY 4 OF 1992. 5 __________________________________ Notary Public in and for the State 6 of Florida at Large. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 1 STATE OF FLORIDA ) :SS 2 COUNTY OF BROWARD ) 3 I, Brenda Weinerth, a Shorthand Reporter and 4 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, do 5 hereby certify that I reported the deposition of JOHN O. 6 SCHLECHTER, a witness called by the Plaintiff in the 7 above-styled cause; that the witness was duly sworn by me 8 to tell the whole truth; that the foregoing pages, numbered 9 1 to 71, inclusive, constitute a true record of the 10 deposition of said witness as stenographically recorded by 11 me; and that this transcript was prepared under my 12 supervision. 13 I further certify that I am not an attorney or 14 counsel of any of the parties, nor a relative or employee 15 of any attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor 16 financially interested in the action. 17 WITNESS my hand and official seal in the City of 18 Fort Lauderdale, County of BROWARD, State of Florida, this 19 20th day of November 1992. 20 ____________________________________________ 21 Brenda Weinerth Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, 22 State of Florida at Large My Commission Expires: October 31, 1995 23 24 25 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25