220 1 Division of Administrative Hearings 2 Department of Administration, State of Florida 3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE) OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; ) 4 and WEDGEWORTH FARMS, INC., ) Petitioners, ) 5 V ) DOAH SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3038 6 DISTRICT, an agency of the ) State of Florida, et al., ) 7 _____________Respondents._____) ) VOLUME II 8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, ) INC.; UNITED STATES SUGAR ) 9 CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE ) SOUTH, INC., ) 10 Petitioners, ) V ) DOAH 11 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3039 DISTRICT, an agency of the ) 12 State of Florida, et al., ) _____________Respondents._____) 13 ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) 14 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) 15 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) Petitioners, ) 16 V ) DOAH SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3040 17 DISTRICT, an agency of the ) State of Florida, et al., ) 18 _____________Respondents._____) 19 Deposition of Kenneth Rutchey 20 Taken before Robin L. Merker, Court 21 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at large, pursuant to notice of taking 22 deposition filed by the Petitioners in the above cause. 23 - - - Monday, February 7, 1992 24 319 Clematis Street West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 25 9:10 - 4:00 p.m. 221 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of the Petitioners Florida Sugar Cane League, Inc., United States Sugar Corp, 3 and New Hope, Inc.: 4 Earl, Blank, Kavanaugh & Stotts One Biscayne Tower 5 Suite 3636 Two South Biscayne Boulevard 6 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: MARK KOBELINSKI, ESQUIRE 7 On behalf of the Petitioners Sugar Cane Growers 8 Cooperative, Roth Farms, Inc., and WEDGEWORTH Farms, Inc.: 9 Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams 10 123 South Calhoun Street Tallahassee, Florida 32314 11 BY: WILLIAM H. GREEN, ESQUIRE and CAROLYN S. RAEPPLE 12 On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD: 13 Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, Ltd. 14 100 Southeast 2nd Street Miami, Florida 33131 15 BY: GREGORY M. CESARANO, ESQUIRE 16 On behalf of the Intervenor, United States of 17 America: 18 THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQUIRE Assistant United States Attorney 19 155 South Miami Avenue Suite 600 20 Miami, Florida 33130-1693 21 ALSO PRESENT: 22 EDWARD DOWNING MICHAEL SOUKUP 23 MICHAEL STORY 24 25 222 1 - - - 2 I N D E X 3 - - - 4 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 5 Kenneth Rutchey 6 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 5 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 226 7 - - - 8 E X H I B I T S 9 - - - 10 Rutchey Exb. No. 1 8 Development of an Everglades Vegetation Map 11 Using a SPOT Image and the Global Positioning System 12 Rutchey Exb. No. 2 33 WCA-2A Field Data Collection Sites for 30 13 classes 10-2-91 to 1-13-92 14 Rutchey Exb. No. 3 56 WCA-2A Tree Islands 15 Rutchey Exb. No. 4 67 16 WCA-2A Accuracy Assessment 3-23 to 4-24-92. 17 Rutchey Exb. No. 5 80 Laboratory Notebook 18 Rutchey Exb. No. 6 105 19 WCA 3S for SPOT 5-11-92 20 Rutchey Exb. No. 7 105 WCA 3N for SPOT 5-11-92 21 Rutchey Exb. No. 8 108 22 Inland Wetland Change Detection in the Everglades Water Conservation Area 2A Using a Time 23 Series of Normalized Remotely Sensed Data 24 Rutchey Exb. No. 9 196 Holeyland file, Bates Nos. 1220441 through 25 1220572 223 1 Rutchey Exb. No. 10 228 2 Color Map of WCA-2A, using SPOT image 4-4-87 3 Rutchey Exb. No. 11 273 Satellite imagery as of 1-25-93 4 Rutchey Exb. No. 12 278 5 Resume of Ken Rutchey 6 Rutchey Exb. No. 13 298 Memorandum dated 11-5-92 from Ken Rutchey 7 Rutchey Exb. No. 14 316 8 Memorandum dated 3-30-1990 from Michael Maceina 9 Rutchey Exb. No. 15 354 Latitudes and longitudes, coordinates 10 Rutchey Exb. No. 16 355 11 Review of Remote Sensing activities by John Jensen. 12 Rutchey Exb. No. 17 357 13 Phosphorus data 14 Rutchey Exb. No. 18 364 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey and Les Vilchek 15 dated 10-22-92 16 Rutchey Exb. No. 19 370 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 7-29-91 17 Rutchey Exb. No. 20 370 18 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 6-18-90 19 Rutchey Exb. No. 21 373 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 10-30-89. 20 Rutchey Exb. No. 22 382 21 WCA-2A fire records 22 Rutchey Exb. No. 23 384 Draft page of Everglades SWIM Plan with 23 handwritten note on back. 24 25 224 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 - - - 4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would remind Mr. 5 Rutchey that you're still under oath. 6 Let me just make a comment here. As I 7 explained just a few moments ago, prior to going 8 on the record, I have not completed my direct 9 testimony of the witness. And, in fact, given 10 the fact that we still don't have the electronic 11 data and some other documents we identified 12 yesterday, including the photos, I would have 13 difficulty doing so. However, Ms. Raepple, from 14 the Cooperative, has spoken with me and, 15 essentially, if I do not pass the baton at this 16 point in time, we're pretty much guaranteed not 17 to be able to finish Mr. Rutchey today and have 18 to call him back. 19 If I do pass the baton there is a 20 possibility that either A, I might need 21 additional redirect or we perhaps would ask 22 those questions of a different witness. So I 23 will at this time halt my direct testimony or 24 questioning. Ms. Raepple will commence, but I 25 will reserve the right to redirect or to 225 1 question Mr. Rutchey further, particularly after 2 we receive his electronic data if that need 3 arises. 4 The other comment I need to make is that 5 Mr. Rutchey is involved, or at least Dr. 6 Jensen's paper is based in part on the 2A study 7 that Mr. Rutchey did. The Jensen deposition is 8 set, I believe, for what, two weeks from 9 tomorrow or something? Is that everyone's 10 recollection? 11 MS. RAEPPLE: Um-hum. 12 MR. KOBELINSKI: He's been noticed by both 13 sides and his documents have been due. Given 14 this fact if paper is finalized, we need those 15 documents or we probably will not able to be 16 able to start. I was told there's only two days 17 he's available. He's the U.S.'s witness -- 18 MR. CESARANO: No, he's the District's 19 witness. He assured me that his documents were 20 with Federal Express yesterday, they should be 21 getting in today. 22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay. All right. 23 MR. CESARANO: We'll send them out 24 immediately -- 25 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- to you and transmit 226 1 that. 2 MR. KOBELINSKI: The only problem 3 accommodating this witness is if those are the 4 only two days we need really need to get those 5 as soon as possible. 6 MR. CESARANO: I understand. 7 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will -- under those 8 conditions, I will pass the baton to Ms. 9 Raepple. 10 If you have an objection to that, Greg, I 11 can go on, but as I said, we're guaranteed to 12 have to call him back another time. 13 MR. CESARANO: I don't think that's an 14 unreasonable request. We'll give it a try and 15 see how it develops. 16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay. 17 Thereupon, 18 Ken Rutchey 19 being by the undersigned Notary Public previously 20 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 21 CROSS (Ken Rutchey) 22 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 23 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I'm Carolyn Raepple. I'm 24 representing the Sugar Cane Grower's Cooperative of 25 Florida, Roth Farms and Wedgeworth Farms. I'm going to 227 1 ask you a number of questions today similar to what you 2 had yesterday with Mr. Kobelinski. If you don't 3 understand any of the questions I ask you, let me know, 4 I'll restate them. I'm not an expert in satellite 5 imagery interpretation. If I use a term incorrectly, 6 let me know, I'll try to restate the question in an 7 appropriate fashion. Do you understand? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. 10 In the document which has been marked as 11 Exhibit 1 to this deposition, there are some vegetative 12 maps of WCA-2 A. Has the Water Management District 13 ever created a vegetative map for WCA-2 A prior to 14 those maps? 15 A. I did a preliminary map based on an April 16 1987 SPOT satellite image which was referenced a number 17 of times in other people's work. 18 Q. Was that map produced for this deposition? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Where is it? 21 A. It -- what I produced was a folder on 22 that, the data of that map and also a big hard copy, 23 color hard copy. 24 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as -- two 25 page map as Exhibit 10. 228 1 (Thereupon, the document was marked 2 Rutchey Exb. No. 10 for Identification.) 3 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 4 Q. Is this the preliminary map to which you 5 just referenced? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When was Exhibit 10 created? 8 A. I'd say late 1987, 1988. 9 Q. Did you ground truth this map? 10 A. I went out in the field and got 11 information for the classes obtained in the map, yes. 12 Q. Would you explain the procedure that you 13 utilized to ground truth this map? 14 A. Back then we didn't have GPS. So I used 15 photography and went out in the field and visited the 16 sites and tried my best to find them in the satellite 17 imagery and extracted that information from each of 18 those types of vegetation classes, and performed a 19 supervised classification with that data. 20 Q. How could you tell whether you were at the 21 location on the ground that you thought you were at 22 when you did that site visit? 23 A. Accurately I couldn't. It's probably why 24 this piece of work has never been published. It had 25 its faults and it was more of a learning process to me 229 1 in the creation of this map. I basically did the best 2 I could from looking at the photography going out in 3 the field, and trying to determine those locations in 4 the satellite imagery. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Then you used no mechanical assistance to 7 locate yourself on the ground when you visited the site 8 for this map? 9 A. Basically at that time GPS wasn't in 10 existence and Loran is pretty inaccurate in the 11 Everglades. I would have been more accurate using 12 aerial photography then to try to use the Loran system 13 at that time. 14 Q. What type of aerial photography did you 15 utilize when you were creating Exhibit 10? 16 A. Boy, this is going back in time now. 17 We're talking five, six years. 18 I had a data set, but don't ask me what 19 date it was, I don't remember. It was close to that 20 time of Area 2. 21 Q. Was it color infrared? 22 A. It was color infrared. 23 Q. Are you familiar with the SWIM Plan for 24 the Everglades? 25 A. I've heard about it, yes. 230 1 Q. Are you familiar with the vegetative maps 2 for WCA-2 A that appear in that document? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you have any involvement in creating 5 maps for utilization in the Everglades SWIM Plan? 6 A. They might have been utilized, but it 7 was -- I didn't have any direct input to it or know 8 about it, you know, they -- that happens sometimes. 9 Q. When I reference the Everglades SWIM Plan, 10 do you understand that I'm referring to the three 11 volume set? 12 A. No. I don't have anything to do with the 13 SWIM Plan. 14 Q. Do you know how many volumes there are in 15 the Everglades SWIM Plan? 16 A. Nope. 17 Q. Have you ever seen the Everglades SWIM 18 Plan? 19 A. I might have seen the cover, but I didn't 20 take the time to read it or anything. 21 Q. Do you know whether Exhibit 10 was 22 utilized by anyone else to create a map of WCA-2A for 23 inclusion in the Everglades SWIM Plan? 24 A. Not for certain, no. 25 Q. In your judgment, would it be appropriate 231 1 to utilize Exhibit 10 for the creation of a vegetative 2 map showing the vegetation in existence in WCA-2A in 3 1987? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why would it be appropriate? 6 A. A number of people have looked at this 7 map, taken it in the helicopter and flown with it. A 8 number of us have long term knowledge of the area, been 9 out there literally hundreds of times and know the area 10 well. And this was a good representation of that area 11 at that time. 12 Q. Who have you discussed Exhibit 10 with, in 13 which they indicated that it is a good representation 14 of the vegetation in WCA-2A as it existed in the spring 15 of '87? 16 A. I would say Steve Davis, Nancy Urban, Dave 17 Swift. Those I believe are the three major -- Dewey 18 Worth. 19 Q. Okay. 20 And you yourself believe it's a good 21 representation; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have all of those individuals spent a fair 24 amount of time in WCA-2A? 25 A. Yes. 232 1 Q. About how many times have you visited 2 WCA-2A either on the ground or in a helicopter? 3 A. I would say four to 600 days, many of 4 those for one stretch period from when I officially was 5 hired at the District in 1981 to 1985. We went out 6 almost every week and spent overnight trips there three 7 days a week. 8 Q. About how many days did you spend in 9 WCA-2A during the spring of '87? 10 A. I can't recall that. I don't know. I'd 11 have to look go back and look. 12 Q. What would you look at? 13 A. Hopefully they kept records of our -- of 14 our field trips. I'm sure the County somewhere 15 probably did that. 16 Q. Can you estimate how many days you spent 17 in WCA-2A prior to the spring of 1987? 18 A. I would say that's basically most of time 19 was prior to 1987 as opposed to after. 20 Q. Most of your four to 600 days? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you estimate how much of those four to 23 600 days were spent on the ground or in an air boat as 24 opposed to in a helicopter? 25 A. These are highly speculative numbers. I 233 1 mean without records I'm really -- four to 600 2 hopefully, in that range. What percentage, I'd be 3 guessing. 4 Q. When you went into the field to verify the 5 vegetation for the creation of Exhibit 10, do you 6 recall whether you went into the field in an air boat 7 or in a helicopter? 8 A. Most of the time it was in a air boat. 9 Q. Did you keep any field notes from those 10 visits? 11 A. No, other than the report that was 12 produced for Dewey Worth for all the transects that we 13 had established in this area. 14 Q. Which report is that? 15 A. I turned it over yesterday. It's in the 16 green folder. It's the response of the drawdown study 17 response of the vegetation -- I can't recall the exact 18 name of it. 19 Q. Are you referencing Technical Publication 20 88-2 of March 1988, titled Environmental Response of 21 WCA-2A to Reduction in Regulation Schedule and Marsh 22 Drawdown? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where are your field notes reflected in 25 that report? 234 1 A. I don't think the field notes are actually 2 in the report. I think all the data that was used to 3 produce this is available in field notes. You'd have 4 talk to Dewey Worth about it, because he was the 5 primary author and he kept all that information. 6 Q. Did Dewey Worth accompany you on that 7 field trip to verify the vegetation in WCA-2A for the 8 creation of Exhibit 10? 9 A. Yes, on a few times, yes. I mean we 10 worked out there for four or five years together. 11 Q. Was he participating in the verification 12 of vegetation or was he simply along with you on the 13 trip? 14 A. I think he was just along on the trip. 15 And part -- I mean he knew about this map and that I 16 was working on it and he saw how things were moving 17 along as I was progressing and making the map. And 18 he'd have comments well, maybe this area doesn't, you 19 know, jive or look quite right and you need to work on 20 this and... 21 Q. When he made those kinds of statement, did 22 you make adjustments to Exhibit 10? 23 A. Again, this is going back a long time and 24 this is a very preliminary piece of work. I don't 25 recall, unless I go through my folder and start reading 235 1 through, how I actually produced this map other than 2 knowing I remember it was a supervised classification, 3 I used aerial photography and going out in the field to 4 ground truth. Other than that I don't remember any of 5 the details of the creation of this map. 6 Q. Did you ever speak with anyone familiar 7 with the vegetation in WCA-2A who felt Exhibit 10 was a 8 poor representation of the vegetation in WCA-2A in the 9 spring of '87? 10 A. No. 11 Q. In your judgment, is Exhibit 10 the best 12 reflection of vegetative conditions in WCA-2A in the 13 spring of '87 that exists today? 14 A. It's the best that's available, yes. 15 Q. You mentioned that you and Dewey Worth 16 worked on some transects in WCA-2A; is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Where were those transects? 19 A. They were all over the area from north to 20 south, east to west. 21 Q. How were those transects developed? 22 A. You're going have to talk to Dewey Worth 23 about that. 24 Q. Where is Dewey Worth now? 25 A. Boise, Idaho. 236 1 Q. Can you be more specific? 2 A. More specific than Boise, Idaho? 3 Q. Yes. Do you know where he works? 4 A. Department of Environmental Quality. 5 Q. Do you know whether the transects were 6 ever surveyed? 7 A. I don't think they were. I would say that 8 there's -- they've been staked, you know, they're 9 still -- they're still there basically. 10 Q. When were the stakes put in place? 11 A. Back when we actually did our initial 12 biological survey. 13 Q. In which year was that? 14 A. What year? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. It was during a period of years from '81 17 to, I'd say, approximately '85. 18 Q. And those stakes remain today up to 10, 12 19 years later? 20 A. Some of them. 21 Q. Do all the stakes remain? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What have those transects been used for by 24 the South Florida Water Management District? 25 A. I don't think they have been used since 237 1 that report. 2 Q. That report is a reference to the 3 technical publication we just referenced? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were the stakes the method utilized to 6 locate the transects when you went into the field or 7 did you have some other mechanical means of locating 8 those transects? 9 A. They -- well, we wanted to know where the 10 beginning and ending part of a transect was each time 11 we went back exactly and that was only way to do that. 12 We know where all those areas are just from our 13 familiarity with Area 2, how to get there. It's just 14 that we wanted an exact beginning point, we ran our 15 transect. 16 Q. Would you then traverse along the 17 transects to the ending point? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How did you do that? Did you have 20 anything to assist you in staying on a straight course? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What? 23 A. Basically the transects were, I think the 24 longest one might have been a thousand feet, and just 25 tried to -- we biologists, you have a long tape 238 1 measure, you have a -- one pole to the other pole, you 2 got your straight line. 3 Q. Have you established the location of any 4 of those stakes in your GPS work? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Who else within the Water Management 7 District creates vegetative maps besides yourself? 8 A. Les Vilchek. I'd say Patti Sime. 9 Q. How do you spell her last name? 10 A. S I M E. 11 There might be others, but I'm not aware 12 of them. 13 Q. Is there any one department that has the 14 overall responsibilities for vegetative mapping within 15 the District? 16 A. I'd say no. 17 Q. There's no overall coordination of 18 vegetative mapping within the District? 19 A. I'd say no. 20 Q. Does Les Vilchek work in your department? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What about Patti Sime, where does she 23 work? 24 A. It's either up in Lower District Planning 25 or Upper District Planning. 239 1 Q. Has Patti Sime assisted you in the 2 creation of any vegetative maps? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know who was responsible for the 5 creation of the vegetative maps that were included in 6 the Everglades SWIM Plan? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Based on your experience in WCA-2A since 9 1981, have the cattail which are located south of the 10 10 structures advanced as a solid monoculture or have 11 they spread by mixing in with the native vegetation and 12 sawgrass? 13 A. My personal observance is they definitely 14 have spread. And the way I have observed is initially 15 they go into slough areas which are lower, more water, 16 and they don't have vegetation. Once they get into the 17 slough areas then they encroach on the surrounding 18 sawgrass ridges and eventually out compete the sawgrass 19 and eventually form a monoculture of cattail. 20 Q. Does that pattern of cattail spread apply 21 to all locations within WCA-2A that are cattail today 22 or is that just south of the S-10's? 23 A. I can't -- I'm not sure, because I don't 24 know all locations within the -- within Area 2. I mean 25 this is the things that I've observed. I think that 240 1 they'll come in, you know, in other areas where there's 2 no sloughs, you know. I've seen that happen too when 3 they just come in thick, the sloughs aren't there, 4 they'll invade a sawgrass ridge. I mean just if we 5 have a monotypic stand of cattail, a wall moving along, 6 and there's a sawgrass ridge in the way and there's no 7 slough in between then they'll encroach on that 8 sawgrass ridge also. But most -- most of my 9 observations, if there's a slough available they'll 10 move into the slough area first and then encroach on 11 the surrounding sawgrass ridges. 12 Q. Where within WCA 2A have you seen the 13 cattail encroachment occur first in the slough and then 14 progress into a sawgrass ridge? 15 A. A number of places south of the S-10 16 structures and all the way on the southern end in along 17 L-35 all along. 18 Q. Any other areas? 19 A. Those are the two that I -- that I have 20 noticed it. 21 Q. Where have you seen cattails come into an 22 area where there was no slough? 23 A. I would say up in the north, very 24 northeast section and in the very west section adjacent 25 to the S-7 inflow structure. 241 1 Q. When did you first observe cattails on the 2 southern end of WCA-2A along L-35? 3 A. I think there's always been some cattail 4 there since I was there. I wouldn't say they were 5 always there, but as far as back as I can remember 6 there was always some. 7 Q. How far back is that? 8 A. 1981. When I say some, I -- that means -- 9 I mean a little bunch here and there. That's how I 10 remember it. 11 Q. When did you first observe cattail in the 12 very northeast section of WCA-2A? 13 A. Since 1981. 14 Q. When did you first observe cattail in the 15 west section adjacent to the S-7 inflow structure? 16 A. I would say it was during that period, '81 17 to '85, that I started -- I mean there was some there. 18 Q. There was some there in '81 when you first 19 went into the area? 20 A. I can't tell you the exact date when I 21 observed. I mean this is -- all numbers I'm giving you 22 are real approximate. I'd say somewhere between '81 23 and '85 for that area. 24 Q. For the two areas that you've testified 25 cattail was in existence when you first saw them, and 242 1 that's the southern end along the L-35 and the very 2 northeast section, is it fair to say that you don't 3 know how cattail first came into the area? 4 A. I think, you know, cattail has always been 5 in the Everglades at one point in time. It's -- 6 they're a native species. It's just they're 7 proliferating, that is the problem. 8 Q. Why is cattail proliferation a problem in 9 your judgment? 10 A. It's out of balance. It takes away from 11 the biodiversity of the fauna, the benthic community, 12 algae communities. It disrupts, basically, the whole 13 food chain, which extend, basically, to higher trophic 14 levels. 15 Q. In what way does the proliferation of 16 cattail disrupt the whole food chain? 17 A. Well, basically, when you form a dense 18 stand of monotypic cattail and there's nothing else, it 19 tends to shade everything out, light reaching the 20 water, then you don't have algae production. You don't 21 have algae production, you don't have benthics. You 22 don't have benthics, fish don't utilize it as much. 23 Fish don't utilize it as much, birds don't utilize it 24 as much. Birds don't utilize it as much, alligators 25 don't tend to hang out in those areas. They depend on 243 1 birds a lot for their food, you know. 2 Q. Have you ever seen fish in a monoculture 3 of cattail? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Have you ever seen birds in a monoculture 6 of cattail? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you ever seen wading birds in a 9 monoculture of cattail? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you ever seen wading birds feeding on 12 fish in a monoculture of cattail? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever seen alligators in a 15 monoculture of cattail? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you ever seen an alligator feeding on 18 birds in a monoculture of cattail? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You indicated previously that Exhibit 10 21 is a preliminary map. Was a final vegetative map of 22 the WCA-2A vegetation in the spring of '87 ever created 23 by someone else? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you ever calculate the acreages for 244 1 each of the vegetative classes shown on Exhibit 10? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Where are those acreages? 4 A. They were given in a folder. 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just for clarity, is it 6 one of the folders we marked yesterday, or is it 7 one that we have not as yet marked? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't 9 recall if that -- it was in one of those, no. 10 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 11 Q. I'll pass that over for the time being, 12 and perhaps we can find it on a break. 13 Other than Exhibit 10, have any other 14 vegetative maps of the WCA-2A been created prior to 15 your 1991 map? 16 A. Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q. Are you aware of all of the remote sensing 18 imagery that the District has of the WCAs, the 19 Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge and Everglades 20 National Park? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you tell me what images the District 23 has of those areas? 24 A. There's probably hundreds, and I've 25 provided that in a -- in a document. I'm not going to 245 1 try to guess all the dates that we have of all those 2 areas. 3 Q. In the documents you produced there is a 4 list of all the remotely sensed data which the District 5 has? 6 A. It's basically a listing of the database I 7 put together describing all the satellite imagery that 8 the District has in its possession. 9 Q. Was that a hard copy list, or was it 10 digitized? 11 A. It's a hard copy listing. I'm pretty sure 12 you got that folder. 13 Q. Do you know Mark Maffei? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who is he? 16 A. He's -- my description of him, he's a 17 scientist/bureaucrat for the National Park Service and 18 Water Conservation Area 1 specifically. 19 Q. Why do you call him a 20 scientist/bureaucrat? 21 A. He's -- because he's not a -- he looks at 22 everything scientifically, but he's involved in the a 23 lot of the bureaucratic processes that go on. I'm not 24 sure of all the details of what that means, but I know 25 that he's not strictly a field biologist. 246 1 Q. Have you ever spoken with him about remote 2 sensing? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know whether he has ever done any 5 mapping of the Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge 6 using remote sensing? 7 A. No. 8 Q. No, he hasn't or no, you don't know? 9 A. No, I don't know. 10 Q. Has he ever asked you to assist him in 11 mapping WCA-1 using remote sensing? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you aware of any mapping effort for 14 WCA-1 that is ongoing? 15 A. Nope. 16 Q. Do you have any maps of the vegetation in 17 WCA-1? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where are those maps? 20 A. They're all in digital form. 21 Q. Are those included in the digitized 22 records that we have yet to receive? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How many maps of WCA-1 do you have in 25 digitized form? 247 1 A. One. 2 Q. What year does it represent? 3 A. I believe it's 1987. 4 Q. How was that map created? 5 A. You'd have to ask John Richardson. 6 Q. Was it created by John Richardson? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you ever discussed with John 9 Richardson how he created that map? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is your recollection of his 12 methodology based on that conversation? 13 A. I don't recall the details. What I do 14 recall is I looked at the finished product and my 15 observances of Area 1, it looked, from what I know of 16 the area, it looked good. 17 Q. When did you look at that map? 18 A. I look at it periodically since it's been 19 produced. 20 Q. When did you first look at it? 21 A. Oh, probably late 1989, 1990. 22 Q. How did you look at it, was it hard copy 23 at that time? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What happened to that hard copy, do you 248 1 know? 2 A. The original hard copy was a promotional 3 thing that SPOT was using to showcase their satellite 4 imagery. That's what I saw. I have that in a folder. 5 I don't think you got that as it was just promotional 6 stuff by SPOT Corporation. 7 Q. What else is in that folder? 8 A. Other people's work that they've done 9 around the country using SPOT satellite imagery. 10 Q. Any other maps of the Everglades area? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When you say that map looked good based on 13 what you knew of WCA-1, how well did you know WCA-1? 14 A. I don't know it as good as Area 2, but 15 I've flown over it a number of times in the helicopter. 16 I know what the interior structure is like and what the 17 outer levee structure is like, and from my personal 18 observations I thought it was a good reflection of the 19 area. 20 Q. When you will say good, can you put a 21 percent accuracy on that or a range of percent 22 accuracy? 23 A. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. 24 Q. How many maps of the Everglades area do 25 you have in digital form, do you know? 249 1 A. Can you repeat that question? 2 Q. How many maps of the Everglades area do 3 you have in digital form, do you know? 4 A. The way you asked the question, hundreds. 5 Q. What was it about the way that I asked the 6 question that made you answer -- 7 A. You said just digital maps, that means 8 original satellite imagery. 9 Q. How many maps of vegetation in the 10 Everglades area do you have in digital form? 11 A. I'd say five or six. 12 Q. What areas are covered by those digital 13 maps? 14 A. Keep in mind some of these papers are just 15 preliminary, but 2, 1, Holeyland, Area 3, and ENR 16 project. 17 Q. And all of those vegetation maps will be 18 in digitized files that we have yet to obtain? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Were all of those vegetation maps created 21 using remotely sensed data? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Going back to the map that you indicated 24 John Richardson created of WCA-1, was that created 25 utilizing SPOT imagery, do you know? 250 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. These five or six vegetation maps that you 3 have in digital form, did you create all of them? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know how many vegetation maps you 6 have of WCA-2? 7 A. Two 8 Q. Are those the two we've already discussed 9 in this deposition? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How many digital maps of WCA-1 do you 12 have? 13 A. One. 14 Q. Is that the John Richardson map? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How many digital maps of the Holeyland do 17 you have? And that's -- excuse me, that's digital 18 vegetation maps of the Holeyland. 19 A. There's probably half a dozen. 20 Q. Did you create all of those vegetation 21 maps? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you recall the dates of those maps? 24 A. I can give you a span of time, 1980 to 25 current. 251 1 Q. Who created the earliest of those 2 vegetation maps, do you know? 3 A. I believe -- I believe it was the 4 Department of Transportation. 5 Q. Who created the subsequent maps, do you 6 know? 7 A. Game and Fish and South Florida Water 8 Management District. 9 Q. How many have been created by the South 10 Florida Water Management District? 11 A. One and one preliminary. 12 Q. The one that is in final form, what is the 13 date of that map, do you know? 14 A. We talked about it yesterday. It's 15 cattail work. 16 Q. That was the cattail work where you and 17 Sue Newman and Les Vilchek flew in a helicopter, all 18 estimated the coverage of cattail in an area, then you 19 averaged those estimates -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- is that correct? All right. 22 What about the preliminary map, who 23 created that? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. When was that created? 252 1 A. I would say it was 12 to 18 months ago. 2 Q. For what purpose was that created? 3 A. Basically I was just trying to look at 4 land patterns and do a preliminary look at the data, 5 see what I could pull out as far as vegetation, and I 6 sort of got pulled off to -- onto another project and 7 never finished. 8 Q. Was anyone assisting you in that mapping 9 effort? 10 A. Les Vilchek. 11 Q. When I get these digital maps, will the 12 digitized file indicate which of the maps are final and 13 which ones are preliminary? 14 A. No. 15 Q. I'd have to ask you which ones were 16 preliminary? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How far along were you in your vegetation 19 mapping effort 12 to 18 months ago for the Holeyland? 20 A. If I recall, I separated some things out, 21 but basically I wasn't looking to do a final product 22 with satellite imagery. I wanted to use that as an aid 23 for using aerial photography. 24 Q. What kind of aerial photography? 25 A. We went over this yesterday, but the 253 1 November, December NASA flight that was flown. 2 Q. I believe it was in regard to that prior 3 discussion in yesterday's deposition that you testified 4 that you believe using aerial photography would be more 5 accurate. Do you recall that testimony? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Why do you believe aerial photography 8 would be more accurate than satellite imagery? 9 A. Well, this latest effort, if you look at 10 just the overall map accuracy, you have 81 percent for 11 this area, which is excellent for this particular work. 12 Using photography you can probably get up around 95 13 percent. It's a much more detailed and a longer effort 14 in producing, but more accurate. But -- never mind. 15 Q. In this deposition whenever you are 16 referencing aerial photography, I'm assuming you mean 17 color infrared aerial photography. Is that a correct 18 assumption? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Will you tell me if we start talking about 21 aerial photography where you're not referencing color 22 infrared? 23 A. All I use is color infrared. 24 (Mr. Green left the room.) 25 254 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Okay. 3 How much vegetation mapping have you 4 personally done using color infrared photography? 5 A. I would say right now we have a good 6 effort going on in the ENR project. 7 Q. When will that be complete? 8 A. It's an ongoing project for, from what I 9 hear, from now till eternity. I'm not told a dead drop 10 date. 11 Q. Are you intending to produce a final map 12 from that ongoing project? 13 A. There'll be a map produced every three 14 months, approximately. 15 Q. Do you know the purpose of creating a map 16 every three months? 17 A. To show a trend analysis of the vegetation 18 communities of 1. 19 Q. How many of those maps have been generated 20 to date? 21 A. None. 22 Q. When do you project the first map being 23 complete? 24 A. Within the next four weeks, three to four 25 weeks. 255 1 Q. Who is assisting you in that mapping 2 effort? 3 A. Les Vilchek. 4 Q. Going back to the digital maps that you 5 have, you indicated that you have some vegetation maps 6 for WCA-3; is that correct? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. How many do you have? 9 A. Again, it's same as the Holeyland area, 10 it's preliminary, and same -- it was used for the same 11 purposes using the NASA aerial photography, just 12 basically trying to find land patterns. 13 Q. Is there just one map, vegetation map of 14 WCA-3? 15 A. There's really -- at this point there's no 16 map, it's preliminary data. 17 Q. How many vegetation maps in digital form 18 do you have for the ENR project? 19 A. None. 20 Q. What other types of digital maps do you 21 have other than vegetation maps? 22 A. Boy, I mean does that include graphs 23 and -- 24 Q. Let me be more specific. Do you have any 25 digital maps of the Everglades area that show 256 1 topography? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the 4 Everglades area that show soils? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the 7 Everglades area that show water quality? 8 A. Not that I recall. I'll take that back, 9 yes. 10 Q. What kind of water quality, surface water 11 or interstitial? 12 A. What is your definition of those two 13 terms? 14 Q. Well, why don't you tell me what kind of 15 water quality digital maps you have for the Everglades 16 area? 17 A. Basically I have all of John Richardson's 18 data that he did, and some of the things he did was, I 19 believe, water quality when he went out and collected 20 samples. 21 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the 22 Everglades area that show water depth? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Are there any other digital maps of the 25 Everglades area similar to the types we've just 257 1 described that you have? 2 A. Not to my knowledge. That doesn't mean 3 there isn't out of all the time I've been out at the 4 District. 5 Q. What about a digital map of fire 6 locations, do you have any of those? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In the digitized files that you will be 9 producing, will all of these digital maps be included? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Are all of the digital maps that are for 12 not vegetation maps final maps or are there any -- are 13 there some preliminary maps in there as well? 14 A. I don't -- could you repeat that again? 15 Q. Okay. 16 When we talked about your digital 17 vegetation maps you indicated that some of them are 18 final, some of them are preliminary. 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And that the digitized file will not 21 indicate which ones are final or preliminary, I'll have 22 to talk to you about which ones are. Do you remember 23 that testimony? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Now I'm asking you about these other 258 1 digital maps, the topographic maps, the soils, the 2 water quality, the water depths, and fire locations, 3 are some of those preliminary maps, do you know? 4 A. I think most of those are final. 5 Q. Do you know whether any of them are 6 preliminary? 7 A. I think those are mostly final. To the 8 best of my knowledge they're all final. 9 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 10 record and Mr. Green returned.) 11 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 12 Q. Who created topographic digital maps that 13 you'll be producing? 14 A. I created one. 15 Q. Are there any other topographic digital 16 maps that you'll be producing? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Who created the soil digital maps that 20 you'll be producing? 21 A. John Richardson. 22 Q. Do you know how many soil digital maps 23 you'll be producing? 24 A. I think that's just one. 25 Q. Do you know the date of that map? 259 1 A. It -- I think it was in the period of 2 around 1987-88. 3 Q. You indicated that the water quality 4 digital maps are all John Richardson's; is that 5 correct? 6 A. (Shakes head up and down.) 7 Q. Do you know how many maps there are? 8 A. No, there's many files. 9 Q. Do you know what time span they cover? 10 A. I think it's all around '87, 87-88. 11 Q. Do you know what area of coverage the 12 water quality maps are for? 13 A. Area 1. 14 Q. All of them? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What about the soils map, what area is 17 covered by that map? 18 A. Area 1. 19 Q. What about the topographic map that you 20 created, what area is covered by that? 21 A. Holeyland. 22 Q. When did you create that map? 23 A. I'd say approximately three months ago. 24 Q. For what purpose? 25 A. It's one of the parameters to be looked as 260 1 for the reason why cattail has expanded so rapidly 2 within that area. 3 Q. What methodology did you utilize to create 4 that topographic map? 5 A. I was provided information from Game and 6 Fish of 196 points evenly -- pretty evenly distributed 7 through out the area. I took that data and created a 8 TIN and then created a contour from that within 9 ARC/INFO. 10 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 11 record.) 12 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 13 Q. How many water depth digital maps will you 14 producing? 15 A. Well, if -- the way that I work, if you 16 know the elevations and you have water, you can produce 17 water depth maps basically if you know the bottom 18 contour and you know how deep it is. So maybe many. I 19 have, you know -- 20 Q. When you say many, would that require the 21 merging of two databases to create a water depth map? 22 A. The one I will be providing is one by -- 23 Game and Fish gave us. 24 Q. What was the area of coverage for that 25 map? 261 1 A. The Holeyland. 2 Q. What is the date of that map? 3 A. I would say sometime in 1993. 4 Q. Do you know why that water depth map for 5 the Holeyland was created? 6 A. I think they were concerned that the -- 7 that we didn't have a good handle on the water depths 8 within that area. That's just one more parameter to 9 look at in trying to figure out why cattail established 10 so rapidly within that area. 11 Q. Do you know why the Game and Freshwater 12 Fish Commission felt the District doesn't have a good 13 handle on water depths in the area? 14 A. No. 15 Q. How many fire location digital maps will 16 be produced? 17 A. One. 18 Q. What is the area of coverage for that map? 19 A. Holeyland. 20 Q. When was that produced? 21 A. Basically it shows muck fires from 1990 to 22 present, I believe. 23 Q. Who created that map? 24 A. I guess I did. 25 Q. Where did you obtain the data to create 262 1 that map? 2 A. Game and Fish. 3 Q. You testified that you created a 4 topographic map of the Holeyland using the 196 points 5 of data given to you by the Game and Freshwater Fish 6 Commission. Did you make any attempt to ground truth 7 that topographic map? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know whether anyone has? 10 A. I -- I have, to a point, looking at an old 11 survey. It's not that old, but a survey that was done 12 in the Holeyland on ground survey, and I looked at 13 those numbers and -- to see if they were reasonable. 14 Q. What -- were you able to form a judgment 15 as to the accuracy of the topographic map that you 16 created? 17 A. Yeah, I think it's an excellent 18 representation of -- topographically of that area. 19 That's a lot of points to have work with in creating a 20 topographic map. 21 (Mr. Green left the room.) 22 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 23 Q. Could you estimate the percent accuracy of 24 that mapping effort? 25 A. No. 263 1 Q. How did you come into possession of all of 2 these digital maps that you've described? 3 A. All the digital maps that I've described? 4 Q. Yes. Or, in other words, are you the 5 District custodian for digital maps? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Who is the custodian for the digital maps? 8 A. Everyone at the District. 9 Q. So that there is no single entity that's 10 in control of all the digital maps at the District? 11 A. (No response.) 12 Q. Is there any index of all the digital maps 13 that exist at the District? 14 A. Not that I know of. That would be nice. 15 Q. Do you know whether any of the witnesses 16 testifying in this proceeding will be relying on any of 17 the digital maps that you have in your files? 18 A. Can you repeat that again? 19 Q. Do you know whether any of the witnesses 20 testifying in this proceeding will be relying on any of 21 the digitized maps from your files? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 Q. Do you have any digital maps on soil 24 phosphorus in the Everglades area? 25 A. Yes. 264 1 Q. How many of those do you have? 2 A. Well, two that I know of. 3 Q. Who created those maps? 4 A. John Richardson and -- 5 Q. What -- oh, excuse me, were there other 6 authors? 7 A. No. 8 Q. John Richardson created both of those 9 digital maps? 10 A. No, John Richardson and John Jensen. 11 Q. What area of coverage is the John 12 Richardson soil phosphorus map? 13 A. Area 1. 14 Q. What area of coverage is the soil 15 phosphorus map created by John Jensen? 16 A. Area 2. 17 Q. Do you know the date of the John 18 Richardson Area 1 map? 19 A. I think it's '87, '88. 20 Q. Do you know the date of John Jensen Area 2 21 soil phosphorus map? 22 A. I believe it was '92 or '93 data. 23 Q. Where did John Jensen get that '92 or '93 24 soil phosphorus data, do you know? 25 A. Marguerite Koch. 265 1 Q. Do you know whether either of those maps 2 are preliminary in form or whether they're both final? 3 A. I think they're both final products. 4 Q. If the Water Management District was 5 coordinated with Mark Maffei on the creation of a WCA-1 6 map, who would be doing that coordination, do you know? 7 A. Can you say that again? 8 (Thereupon, Messrs. Fitzgerald and Soukup 9 joined the deposition.) 10 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 11 Q. If the District were coordinated with Mark 12 Maffei to create a WCA-1 map, who would be doing that 13 coordinating on behalf of the District, do you know? 14 A. I'm not sure. 15 Q. But you're not doing any such 16 coordination; is that correct? 17 A. No. 18 Q. I can't recall if I asked you this, 19 forgive me if I'm repeating myself. 20 Are you able to place any percentage of 21 accuracy on Exhibit 10? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Are you able to place a range of 24 percentage for accuracy of Exhibit 10? 25 A. No. 266 1 (Mr. Green returned.) 2 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 3 Q. When I get the digital maps that you've 4 described, will the date of the data used to create 5 those maps be included in the digitized file? 6 A. The only way it might be included is if 7 it's printed on the map. 8 Q. On the hard copy map? 9 A. Or what you're viewing digitally on the 10 screen. 11 (Mr. Downing left.) 12 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 13 Q. Do you know whether all of the digital 14 maps will have a date on them? 15 A. I think a lot of them won't. 16 Q. Will there be any way to determine the 17 date of the data used to create those maps for which no 18 date is shown? 19 A. Probably not. 20 Q. Would you know the date of the data used 21 to create those maps? 22 A. The ones I produced. 23 Q. Do you know the date of the data used to 24 create the one preliminary map for WCA 3? 25 A. May 1992. 267 1 Q. Do you know the date of the data used to 2 create the one preliminary map of the Holeyland that 3 you created? 4 A. May 1992. 5 Q. Do you know the date of the data used for 6 John Richardson to create the WCA-1 map? 7 A. April 1987. 8 Q. For the two WCA-2 maps that you created, I 9 believe we've already discussed this in deposition, the 10 date of that data, haven't we? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 And you said there will be no digital maps 14 on the ENR project; is that correct? 15 A. No. Yes, that's correct. 16 Q. How are the vegetation maps that are going 17 to be produced every three months for the ENR project 18 being created? What is the methodology you and Les 19 Vilchek are using? 20 A. They're being flown at two different 21 scales, one 6,000, one at 36,000. We're having 22 1:36,000 digitally scanned into the computer and 23 creating -- we're rectifying that imagery and using it 24 as -- and making a hard copy output and using it as a 25 base map on a zoom transfer scope -- zoom transfer 268 1 scope, it's a stereoscope. And we're actually looking 2 at the photography stereoscopically and drawing on a 3 Mylar overlay over the base map the boundaries of 4 signatures that we see. And we go out in the field and 5 we determine what those boundaries are on the ground. 6 Take that map, that base map once we have all the 7 ground truth information, and digitize it into ARC/INFO 8 to create a final map. 9 Q. How is the 1:6,000 aerial photography 10 used? 11 A. It's what we're actually using to 12 delineate what we're seeing in the area. 13 Q. So the stereoscopic analysis is done on 14 1:6,000? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who is doing the stereoscopic analysis? 17 A. Les Vilchek and myself. 18 Q. What training do you have in stereoscopic 19 analysis? 20 A. I have no training, but it's not that -- 21 it's not that difficult of a task. I believe just 22 about anybody could do it. 23 Q. Is the stereoscopic analysis for the 24 purpose of identifying vegetation species? 25 A. Or mixed communities. 269 1 Q. You said that during the stereoscopic 2 analysis you draw boundaries on the map or on Mylar 3 over the base map; is that correct? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Are those the boundaries between two 6 signatures? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then when you go in the field, do you 9 ascertain what is within those boundaries or do you 10 simply verify what you thought you saw in the 11 stereoscopic analysis? 12 A. You ascertain what you believe that 13 signature to be. You go out in the field and you 14 ground truth it. 15 Q. Talk me about me a little bit about the 16 ground truthing. Do you do it in a helicopter or in an 17 air boat? 18 A. So far it's been air boat. 19 Q. How do you locate -- when you are on the 20 ground do you use GPS? 21 A. Nope. 22 Q. How do you locate where you are on the 23 ground? 24 A. At a 1:6,000 scale I could see something 25 probably size of that folder there, so I could go 270 1 pretty much anywhere I want in that area looking at 2 that photography, know exactly where I'm at. 3 Q. You could see something about 10 inches by 4 14 inches? 5 A. Well, let's say -- let's say 18 by 18. 6 That's being conservative. 7 Q. What kind of things do you see in the 8 1:6,000 that are 18 by 18 inches or larger that help 9 you position yourself on the ground? 10 A. I'm not looking for things that are 18 by 11 18. I'm just looking for general patterns. I'm 12 telling you that you can go -- 1:6,000, it's a real 13 luxury to work with. I can go anywhere I want in the 14 photography and know where I'm at, it's very simple. 15 Q. With what level of precision can you 16 locate yourself on the ground using 1:6,000 aerials? 17 A. If you mean from the point of view when 18 I'm looking at that photo I go to the signature and I 19 go there and standing on, looking at the photo, I'm 20 looking around, I'd say a hundred percent. 21 Q. Can you locate yourself within some number 22 of meters using that methodology? 23 A. Well, after you go back and you transfer 24 it to the base map you know within a certain number of 25 meters where you were. 271 1 Q. Explain that to me. 2 A. Well, when you see a raw photo out in the 3 field, it's not any real world map projection, it's 4 just a raw photo. So I go out in the field, I go to a 5 location, the signature polygon region that I'm 6 uncertain, I go there, we determine what it is, we mark 7 it, we go back. Now put it to the base map, and the 8 base map has been rectified so I can transfer what I'm 9 seeing on the photo on that base map if it's rectified. 10 I now have a location of where that area is at. 11 This is all state of the art 12 photogrammetric -- I'm not inventing the wheel here. 13 It's been used since 1920, 1900's. I mean it's there's 14 volumes and volumes of books written on it, I'm not 15 doing anything out of the ordinary here. 16 Q. How small of a signature area are you able 17 to map using that methodology? 18 A. Well, you know, it's possible to go down 19 to, I'd say, about 18 inches by 18 inches. 20 Q. Are you mapping to that level of accuracy 21 for the ENR project? 22 A. No. 23 Q. How small of an area are you trying to map 24 for the ENR project? 25 A. Our minimum mapping unit is 25 meters by 272 1 25 meters. That was where -- we're doing a little bit 2 more than that, but that was our established minimum 3 map unit. 4 Q. When you go out into the ENR to ground 5 truth these maps with Les Vilchek, describe for me what 6 you do. 7 A. Well, initially we create a bunch of 8 polygon regions within the color infrared 1:6,000 scale 9 photography. And we go out in the field, visit all 10 these sites, write down what we think it is, mark it on 11 the -- over on the Mylar, over the color infrared 12 photography and that's it. It's a fairly simple 13 process. 14 Q. Have you and Les Vilchek split up the 15 responsibilities for that ground truthing effort in any 16 way? 17 A. No, I think we're working on it together 18 pretty much. 19 Q. Do you split up the work or do you do 20 every step as a team? 21 A. We're doing all steps as a team. 22 MS. RAEPPLE: Why don't we take about a 23 five minute break. 24 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 25 record.) 273 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Is that the file? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. The whole thing? 5 A. (No response.) 6 Q. We need the whole thing to identify all of 7 the remotely sensed imagery that the District has? 8 That's fine. 9 A. Well, take that out. 10 (Thereupon, the document was marked 11 Rutchey Exb. No. 11 for Identification.) 12 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 13 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I show you this document 14 which has been marked as Exhibit 11. Can you identify 15 that document? 16 A. Yes, this is a database of imagery that's 17 available at the District that I put together. 18 Q. Is that the most current listing of all of 19 the remotely sensed data that the District has? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Who would have an up-to-date listing of 22 all the remotely sensed data in the possession of the 23 District? 24 A. I would. 25 Q. Do you have a more current listing in your 274 1 digitized files? 2 A. No. 3 Q. That document which is Exhibit 11, says at 4 the top it's as of January 25, '93 is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All of the remotely sensed data that the 7 District had as of that date are reflected on Exhibit 8 11; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How many scenes of remotely sensed data, 11 approximately, has the District acquired since that 12 date? 13 A. I would say -- let me just look. 30 to 14 40. 15 Q. How could I identify what those 30 or 40 16 additional scenes are that have been acquired since the 17 date of Exhibit 11? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Who has possession of those 30 to 40 20 scenes? 21 A. Lower District Planning. 22 Q. Do you know why Lower District Planning 23 has those scenes? 24 A. Basically they go out and buy the whole 25 District every year, SPOT specific. 275 1 Q. By SPOT specific, do you mean from the 2 SPOT satellite? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know whether the Lower District 5 Planning s purchase of the entire District from SPOT is 6 all of the additional remotely sensed imagery that has 7 been acquired since Exhibit 11 was created? 8 A. It's the only imagery that I'm aware of. 9 Q. When referencing remotely sensed imagery, 10 are you referencing only satellite imagery; is that 11 your understanding of the term? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would that include color infrared? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Is there a listing of all of the color 16 infrared aerial photography available in the District? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Who has possession of the color infrared 19 photography in the District's possession? 20 A. It's spread out throughout the District. 21 Q. Do you have some of that color infrared 22 photography in your files? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Has that been produced? 25 A. It's -- I've talked to our attorneys about 276 1 it, and I think they're going have to have you come. 2 There's cabinets and cabinets full of it. It would be 3 very expensive to reproduce. 4 Q. When did you have that discussion with 5 your attorneys about the cabinets of color infrared 6 photography? 7 A. It was Sharron Follins, and it was, I 8 would say, approximately the last -- mid last week. 9 Q. Do you know whether any of the color 10 infrared photography that is in your files will be 11 relied on by witnesses testifying in this proceeding? 12 A. I'm not sure. 13 Q. Have you made copies -- well, first of all 14 when someone within the District wants to utilize color 15 infrared photography from your files do you give them 16 the original or do you make copies for them? 17 A. No. We give them the original. 18 Q. In the last six months have you sent 19 original color infrared photography to anyone within 20 the District? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What about in the six months prior to 23 that? 24 A. No. 25 Yes, there was one. Boy. 277 1 Q. Who was that? 2 A. Somebody in Upper District Planning. I 3 don't recall the exact area. 4 Q. Do you recall what scene they requested? 5 A. It was an area, a photography -- it's 6 not -- it's -- I remember it was north of Lake 7 Okeechobee somewhere. 8 Q. In the last six months has anyone come to 9 review aerial photography from your files? 10 A. I think so. I'm not sure if it's 11 borderline, six months, yeah, somewhere around six 12 months ago. 13 Q. Who came around six months ago to review 14 color infrared photography from your files? 15 A. Steve Coughlin with Game and Fish. 16 Q. Do you know what photography he reviewed? 17 A. If I remember, it was Water Conservation 18 Area 3. 19 Q. Do you know for what purpose he was 20 reviewing that photography? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. In the period of time of six months to 12 23 months ago, did anyone come and review the color 24 infrared photography in your files? 25 A. No, I don't think so. 278 1 Q. In the documents that you've produced 2 there was included a resume. I'm going to mark that as 3 Exhibit 12. 4 (Thereupon, the document was marked 5 Rutchey Exb. No. 12 for Identification.) 6 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 7 Q. Is that a current resume? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. It indicates that from about 1981 to 1986 10 you worked on the WCA-2A drawdown study with Dewey 11 Worth? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What does what drawdown study entail? 14 A. All that it detailed is written in a 15 report that was done by Dewey worth. 16 Q. Is that technical publication 88-2, dated 17 March 1988? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What was your involvement in that study? 20 A. Basically I went out in the field with 21 Dewey and we collected the data together. I analyzed a 22 lot of the data. Basically a lot of graphs in the 23 final report are mine. 24 Q. What type of data did you collect as part 25 of that study? 279 1 A. Biological surveillance of vegetation. 2 Q. Do you know the purpose of collecting that 3 kind of data? 4 A. It was to -- there was a change in the 5 regulation schedule and we were monitoring the results 6 of that. 7 Q. When did that change in the regulation 8 schedule occur? 9 A. I don't recall the exact date. It's in -- 10 it's in the report. 11 Q. Do you know what the water stage was 12 before the drawdown? 13 A. Again, it's in the report. There's 14 hydrographs showing throughout the project what the 15 hydrology was within the area. 16 Q. What about the water stage after the 17 drawdown, do you know what that was? 18 A. Not off top of my head, no. 19 Q. Would that also be shown in technical 20 publication 88-2? 21 A. I don't believe so. 22 Q. Where could I find data showing the water 23 stage after the drawdown study? 24 A. Well, if I had to go find it right now I'd 25 talk to Robb Startzman. 280 1 Q. Would you spell his last name, please? 2 A. S T A R T Z M A N. 3 Q. How did you collect the biological data 4 and conduct surveillance of vegetation? 5 A. Basically all the methods that are in that 6 paper. Basically we just set up transects in basically 7 three types of areas, slough, sawgrass ridges and tree 8 islands. And along the transect line, every so many 9 feet, a predetermined amount, we put out a transect, a 10 quadrat out to the side and we measure percent cover of 11 species that were within that coverage or presence or 12 absence. And sometimes we take out a biomass cutting, 13 bring it back to the lab and dry it out, and we took 14 soil cores. Everything's in that report. 15 Q. Did you create maps from that data 16 collection? 17 A. Just the graphical depictions that are 18 within that report. 19 Q. Were those transects ever surveyed? 20 A. Not my knowledge, no. I don't think so. 21 Q. Were those transects ever located within 22 any degree of precision on a map? 23 A. I wouldn't say so, no. It depends on your 24 definition of precision. 25 Q. How precisely have those transect 281 1 locations been recorded on a map? 2 A. Oh, I'd say they're probably pretty 3 accurate to about a mile, a mile or two. 4 Q. And those are maps shown in technical 5 publication 88-2? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When you collected data as part of this 8 drawdown study, did you do it in an air boat? 9 A. Yes. And we used helicopters sometimes. 10 Q. What would a helicopter be used for? 11 A. When you couldn't get out there in an air 12 boat. 13 Q. Then you would go out in a helicopter and 14 land; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When you collected the biological data and 17 surveillance of vegetation, did you keep field notes? 18 A. I didn't. 19 Q. Did you take any photographs? 20 A. Yes, there was photographs taken. 21 Q. Are those still available? 22 A. You'd have to talk to Dewey Worth. I have 23 some that were taken from helicopter. 24 Q. Would Dewey Worth have taken those photos 25 with him to Boise, Idaho? 282 1 A. He took a lot of stuff with him. You'd 2 have to ask Dewey Worth. 3 Q. Is it standard practice for the District 4 to allow original data to be taken by employees when 5 they leave the District, do you know? 6 A. I'm not sure. 7 Q. Do you know whether that happens? 8 A. I'm not sure. You know, I know Dewey 9 left. I'm not surely if he made duplicates. I'm not 10 surely of all the facts. 11 Q. Are you the custodian of Dewey Worth's 12 files now that he's no longer with the District? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Who has Dewey Worth's old files? 15 A. I think a number of people have some of 16 those files. 17 Q. Who are those people? 18 A. I'm not sure. 19 Q. Do you have any of Dewey's old 20 photographic files? 21 A. I have some, yes. 22 Q. Do you know whether you have the 23 photographs that were taken during your data collection 24 for the drawdown study? 25 A. Not without going through them. 283 1 Q. Have those photographs been produced? 2 A. No. They're, you know, slides at this 3 point. There's some photos too. 4 Q. Do you know why the photographs and slides 5 were not produced? 6 A. Well, I -- like I said, I talked to 7 Sharron. Basically the request that she gave me is 8 that you wanted a hard copy of every satellite image 9 that we ever acquired at the District. I told her that 10 would take me about a year and a half to complete. And 11 you wanted a duplication of the photography. And I 12 said that would cost many thousands, maybe tens of 13 thousand of dollars so maybe you should ask them if 14 they want to do that. I haven't heard anything since. 15 Q. When you used a helicopter to obtain the 16 biological sampling and reconnaissance of the 17 vegetation, you testified that that was when it was 18 difficult or impossible to use an air boat; is that 19 correct? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Would that have been in dry periods? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Would that have included the 1985 drought 24 period? 25 A. It might have. 284 1 Q. Were you continuing to gather data in the 2 1985 time frame? 3 A. We were getting toward the end there of 4 collecting data. 5 Q. Will technical publication 88-2 indicate 6 the dates on which data was collected? 7 A. I believe it did. 8 Q. Would you please show me where that 9 occurs? 10 A. Here, this is -- it tells you -- you have 11 to read. I mean it's not all in one place. It tells 12 you year, and then it tells you the period and then 13 keep going on. 14 Q. Can you tell from this discussion in 15 technical publication 88-2 whether you were collecting 16 data during the 1985 drought period? 17 A. It doesn't appear so from reading that, 18 but then again, I don't remember the exact date of the 19 drought period of when it started. 20 Q. Um-hum. 21 What conclusions were drawn from the 22 drawdown study? 23 A. I'd like to say that Dewey is probably the 24 best person to ask these questions. What I got from it 25 was that the regulation schedule needed to be -- should 285 1 be readjusted, and I believe it was as a result of that 2 drawdown study. 3 Q. In what way did you believe that the 4 regulation schedule should be readjusted? 5 A. I think we showed that many of the tree 6 islands in the southern region were impacted from 7 hydrology, basically the -- basically the bigger trees 8 were dying out, or had died out. They were basically 9 what I would call remnant tree islands. 10 Q. In what way did you recommend the 11 regulation schedule be readjusted, further up or 12 further down? 13 A. Down. 14 Q. Do you know whether any follow-up studies 15 have been conducted in WCA-2A to determine whether the 16 regulation schedule should be readjusted again? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Did the drawdown study result in any 19 conclusions about whether vegetative changes were 20 nutrient induced? 21 A. To my knowledge, no. 22 Q. Other than the tree islands dying out in 23 the south end of WCA-2A, did the drawdown study result 24 in any conclusions about hydroperiod induced changes to 25 vegetation? 286 1 A. I'd say yes. 2 Q. What were those conclusions? 3 A. Well, like I just previously stated, prior 4 to the study the water -- it was an impounded area and 5 we believe the water was too high, drowned out a lot of 6 bigger trees on the island. 7 Q. When you say the water was too high, are 8 you talking about during the '70's it was too high or 9 after the drawdown it was too high? 10 A. After, in the '70's. 11 Q. Perhaps I misunderstood your testimony. I 12 thought you had told me that as a result of the study 13 you and Dewey Worth recommended that the regulation 14 scheduled be readjusted. Was that readjustment after 15 the initial drawdown? 16 A. You know, I'm going to refer all these 17 questions to Dewey, because this was his project. And 18 it wasn't, you know, I was just more -- at that time it 19 was -- I was just a technician. And the answers I'm 20 giving you, I feel like a lot of them I just think you 21 should ask Dewey. It's his paper, I'm not going to try 22 to answer the questions for what he wrote. 23 Q. Did you not draw any personal conclusions 24 from those five years of work? 25 A. Yeah, I've already stated one thing that I 287 1 got out of it, which is basically I think the water was 2 kept at too high an elevation during the '70's and that 3 the regulation schedule needed to be readjusted to try 4 to bring some of these tree islands back. 5 Q. Did you draw any other conclusions about 6 vegetative changes as a result of hydroperiod, as 7 result of that work? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You testified that some of the graphics in 10 technical publication 88-2 were your own; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Could you tell me which of the graphics 14 you created? 15 A. I would say Figure 2, Figure 3, Figure 4, 16 Figure 5, Table 1, Figure 6, Figure 7, Figure 8, Figure 17 9, Figure 10, Figure 11, Figure 12, Figure 14, Figure 18 17, Figure 18, Appendix Figure 1, 2, 3. 19 Q. Figure 4 is a predrawdown dominant plant 20 community in WCA-2A. How did you create that figure? 21 A. Basically I'm going tell you the same 22 answer for all those. Dewey directed me to create this 23 graph. That's how I did it, so you have to ask Dewey 24 on why or how he got the data. 25 Q. When you created figure 4, data was given 288 1 to you by Dewey Worth; is that correct? 2 A. He basically said how he wanted the figure 3 to look like, yeah. The data was given to me by Dewey. 4 Q. Did he tell you where to draw the 5 boundaries between different vegetation types? 6 A. Yes. This is Dewey's work, that's why his 7 name is on the paper. I was just a technician at this 8 time. You're asking the wrong person. 9 Q. Then when you say you created these 10 figures you mean you put pen to paper? 11 A. Basically. 12 Q. But you did not analyze the data to create 13 the figures; is that correct? 14 A. I analyzed some of the data. 15 Q. But not for Figure 4? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know what the vegetation 18 communities in WCA-2A were in the predrawdown time 19 period? 20 A. I personally don't, no. 21 Q. In your summary it says, under the summary 22 of experience, I believe it's the last sentence, that 23 basically for the past six years you've been doing 24 detection of wetlands use GIS and image 25 processing/remote sensing applications; is that 289 1 correct? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Do you consider yourself an expert in 4 detection of wetlands using GIS and image 5 processing/remote sensing applications? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you keep up with the literature on 8 image processing and remote sensing applications? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In what way do you keep up with the 11 literature? 12 A. I read the Journal of Photogrammetric 13 Engineering and Remote Sensing, International Journal 14 of Remote Sensing, Remote Sensing of the Environment, 15 and there's another one, Geocarto, those are the major 16 ones that I -- 17 Q. For how long have you been reading those 18 journals? 19 A. I would say since I started reading them, 20 around '87, '88. 21 Q. Do you also consider yourself to be an 22 expert in biology? 23 A. Expert, what's your definition of an 24 expert. 25 Q. Do you consider yourself to have special 290 1 knowledge of the area that would assist someone who 2 does not have that knowledge in understanding the area? 3 A. Which area? 4 Q. Well, biology. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 How do you define an expert? 8 A. Excuse me? 9 Q. Well, you told me you thought you were an 10 expert in -- 11 A. I don't -- 12 Q. -- detection of wetlands using GIS and 13 image processing/remote sensing applications. 14 A. I think I would -- somebody who's now at 15 level where they're publishing their work and they're 16 being accepted by their peers is approaching or is at 17 expert level. 18 Q. By accepted by peers, who are the peers 19 that you're referencing? 20 A. Well, when you publish, you know, a number 21 people read your manuscript. And they could be turned 22 down or accepted. They just don't take in it and put 23 it in the magazine or, you know, the journal. 24 Especially in the District it's even 25 tougher, because we have a whole order of process that 291 1 we go through to get it even out the door, before it 2 can even get to the journal. We start off, just within 3 our division, there's already half a dozen other 4 scientists who review your work and it goes outside of 5 the division to all departments in the building, 6 probably have another dozen people review your work. 7 It has to be signed off by your department director, by 8 the board, and then finally it can go outside the 9 District to a journal. 10 Q. Is that internal review process applied to 11 all journal publications by District employees? 12 A. I think so. 13 Q. That's before the document is submitted to 14 a journal for consideration? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was Exhibit 1 to this deposition subjected 17 to that internal review process? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who all reviewed Exhibit 1 prior to 20 publication within the District? 21 A. I'm not sure I'm going to recall all the 22 names, but Rick Alleman, Garth Redfield, Tom Fontaine, 23 Tony Federico, Pete Rhoads, Brent Moll. I think Steve 24 Davis. There's probably other people I'm not even 25 aware of. Maybe I don't remember all the names. Those 292 1 are the major ones I can remember. 2 Q. And then did you say the board has to 3 review and approve the publication as well? 4 A. Right. It goes before the board, and they 5 each get a copy. Whether they read it or not, I'm not 6 sure. And, you know, they have a lot of things on 7 their agenda. I doubt if they seriously read the whole 8 thing from cover to cover. But they have to give their 9 nod that it's okay. 10 Q. Were you in attendance when the board 11 approved Exhibit 1 for publication? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did they ask you any questions about it? 14 A. Nope. 15 Q. Did any of the other reviewers ask you any 16 questions or make comments about Exhibit 1? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you make any changes to Exhibit 1 in 19 reaction to those comments? 20 A. Nothing in regard to procedures. More 21 probably structure, the way it was structured. 22 Q. By structured, you mean editorial changes? 23 A. Right, like results should really be or 24 you have some results in the discussion or in the 25 conclusion, you should move those to results, something 293 1 like that. 2 Q. None of the internal reviewers suggested 3 substantive changes; is that correct? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Have you received the peer review comments 6 for Exhibit 1 from the journal reviewers? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Were those comments produced? 9 A. I'm not -- they might have. I'm not even 10 sure I still have all those. I mean everybody who 11 reviews your paper, you know, once the paper is finally 12 accepted for publication I tend to throw that kind of 13 stuff away. I mean, I just don't save it. But I might 14 have kept those that were reviewed by the journal. I 15 think I did. But if I did you have them. 16 Q. Did you make any changes to Exhibit 1 as a 17 result of those peer review comments? 18 A. Again, it was -- they were favorable 19 reviews and basically it was structure again. 20 Q. Do you know who the reviewers were? 21 A. No, it's a blind. 22 Q. What about Exhibit 8, did that undergo the 23 internal review at the District? 24 A. Exhibit 8 being? 25 Q. It should be right there, it's the paper 294 1 written by John Jensen, you, Marguerite Koch -- 2 A. No, no. 3 Q. -- and another individual. 4 A. That's his paper. 5 Q. You're listed as an author on that paper; 6 isn't that correct? 7 A. Yeah, but he's the primary author. 8 Q. Why didn't you submit Exhibit 8 for an 9 internal review under the District process? 10 A. It's basically his work and all I did was 11 provide my data set. He did all the work, it's -- he's 12 not -- I mean someone outside the District isn't going 13 to -- he's going to go his own -- I'm not going to say 14 you can't publish your work, you have to first give 15 people your paper. It's just not, you know, it's his 16 work. He's just using my data set to do it. 17 Q. Why are you listed as an author? 18 A. I would list somebody if I had gotten all 19 my data for my analysis from them I would list them as 20 an author, that's... 21 Q. Using your definition of expert do you 22 consider yourself as an expert in biology? 23 A. Again, I -- you tell me your definition 24 and I'll tell you if I think that I fit it. 25 Q. I'm asking for your definition of biology, 295 1 the same one that you used. 2 A. If an expert means that I know something 3 that someone else doesn't know about biology, yes, I'm 4 an expert. 5 Q. What about under your definition of expert 6 such as you used when you said you were an expert in 7 the detection of wetlands using GIS image processing 8 remote sensing application? 9 A. I would say that I'm not to the extent 10 that I am in remote sensing. I'm not at the same level 11 in biology. 12 Q. Have you ever published in the peer review 13 journals in biology? 14 A. Nope. 15 Q. What about ecology, are you an expert in 16 ecology? 17 A. Not to the same level as I am in remote 18 sensing. 19 Q. What about botany, are you an expert in 20 botany? 21 A. If botany means identification of plants 22 in the Everglades, yeah, I would consider myself an 23 expert. 24 Q. Have you ever published in peer review 25 journals on botany? 296 1 A. Nope. 2 Q. Zoology, are you an expert in zoology? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever attempted to interpret 5 historical wetland vegetation using image processing 6 and remote sensing applications? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever attempted to interpret 9 historical wetland vegetation using color infrared 10 aerial photography? 11 A. No. 12 Q. With which satellite platforms are you 13 familiar? 14 A. MSS, LandSat, LandSat TM, SPOT, and I have 15 looked at low altitude multispectral, mainly Daedulus 16 and Cassi, Cassi system. Boy, I got, I think AVHRR. 17 I've looked at some weather satellites, that's about 18 it. 19 Q. Which of those satellite platforms have 20 you obtained data from to create vegetative maps? 21 A. I'd say two. 22 Q. Which two? 23 A. LandSat TM and SPOT. 24 (Mr. Green left the room.) 25 297 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Have you ever created a vegetative map 3 using LandSat MSS? 4 A. No. 5 Q. But you're familiar with LandSat MSS? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you ever used LandSat MSS data for 8 any purpose? 9 A. I used it basically when I first started 10 using image processing on the I2S system as preliminary 11 data sets just to learn the system and sort of like my 12 training data set. 13 Q. Did you create any training vegetation 14 maps during that exercise? 15 A. I think I made around -- with making 16 vegetation maps and in urban areas. 17 Q. Focusing on LandSat MSS, SPOT, and LandSat 18 thematic, can you tell me the relative strength and 19 weaknesses of each of those platforms? 20 A. MSS is four bands, SPOT is three band, 21 thematic mapper is seven bands. MSS probably, for 22 trying to derive information for classifying land 23 features, is probably the worst, it's resolution is 79 24 meters per 79 meters. 25 LandSat TM and SPOT are almost, I almost 298 1 consider on the same level. They each have their pros 2 and cons. SPOT only has three band and doesn't cover 3 quite the wave band length that LandSat has. However 4 the resolution is 20 meters for the multispectral, and 5 10 meters for the panchromatic. LandSat, on the other 6 hand, had a -- covers a larger wave band length of 7 information, wave band length of information, but the 8 resolution is 30 meters. And there is no panchromatic 9 data to go along with that. And it also has one other 10 thing, it has a thermal band and some play around with 11 that. 12 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as the next 13 exhibit. 14 (Thereupon, the document was marked 15 Rutchey Exb. No. 13 for Identification.) 16 (Mr. Kobelinski left the room.) 17 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 18 Q. I'm showing you now a document marked as 19 Exhibit 12, which is a memorandum to the files dated 20 November 5, 1990 written by you regarding vegetation 21 mapping using satellite imagery analysis. 22 MR. FITZGERALD: Excuse me, what, was the 23 exhibit number on the resume? 24 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 25 record.) 299 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Do you recall this memorandum? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. For what purpose did you prepare this 5 memorandum? 6 A. I'll going to have to read it. 7 I think it was just a summary of where we 8 were at the District in regards to satellite imagery 9 analysis. 10 (Thereupon, Mr. Green returned.) 11 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 12 Q. Is the method for satellite imagery 13 analysis described in this memo one that you've used? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you still use this methodology? 16 A. Currently I'm moving towards aerial 17 photography. 18 Q. Aerial photography for vegetation mapping 19 rather than satellite imagery? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Why is that? 22 A. It's more accurate in my opinion. 23 Q. What is the basis for that opinion? 24 A. Well, my overall map accuracy was 25 approximately 81 percent, which was excellent for this 300 1 type of work. I mean if you look at the literature you 2 can see that within aerial photography, depending on 3 the scale that you obtain, you can get to the 95 4 percent level. There's two differences. Satellite 5 imagery, it's totally objective, which means that I can 6 give you original digital imagery, you should be able 7 to reproduce exactly what I have given you through my 8 methods and check everything. Whereas, if I create a 9 map from aerial photography, it's totally subjective. 10 So either way you can't win in this deal. It's going 11 to be challenged because you're going to, you know, 12 it's just the way it is. But as a final map product 13 it's been shown, and it's in the literature, that 14 aerial photography is -- you can produce a more 15 accurate end product probably at the 95 percent level. 16 Q. When you create a vegetation map using 17 color infrared aerial photography, is it necessary to 18 conduct ground truthing to get that 95 percent 19 accuracy? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What level of accuracy can you achieve 22 utilizing color infrared aerial photography without 23 ground truthing, do you know? 24 A. No, I wouldn't attempt to do that. 25 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether 301 1 historical aerial photography, color infrared aerial 2 photography, would be superior to satellite imagery to 3 create historical vegetation maps? 4 A. In that respect I would almost have to go 5 to -- with satellite imagery, if you want to go back in 6 time. 7 Q. Why is that? 8 A. Because I have no way to derive the 9 information from aerial photography from the past 10 because I have no ground truth information. But if I 11 have a current scene that's already been done and it's 12 accurate, I can use the information from that the 13 statistical information and go back to past scenes and 14 create vegetation maps or maps depicting representation 15 of the earth's features. 16 Q. Returning to Exhibit 13, on the second 17 page, on the fourth full paragraph, and the last 18 sentence, it says the amount of field verification and 19 resolution of color infrared photography directly 20 correspond to the amount of spectral separability of 21 unique Class 1, can be discerned within an image. 22 Do you know how much spectral separability 23 there is between sawgrass and cattail? 24 A. You're having to -- I don't know how to 25 answer that question. Ask it a different way or -- I 302 1 don't understand the question. 2 Q. Do you agree that sawgrass and cattail are 3 unique classes of vegetation? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Do you agree that classes of vegetation 7 have some degree of spectral separability? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is that why you can discern differences 10 between those vegetation classes on color infrared 11 aerial photography? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. 14 Can the amount or degree of spectral 15 separability between unique classes of vegetation be 16 quantified?