220 1 Division of Administrative Hearings 2 Department of Administration, State of Florida 3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE) OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; ) 4 and WEDGEWORTH FARMS, INC., ) Petitioners, ) 5 V ) DOAH SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3038 6 DISTRICT, an agency of the ) State of Florida, et al., ) 7 _____________Respondents._____) ) VOLUME II 8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, ) INC.; UNITED STATES SUGAR ) 9 CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE ) SOUTH, INC., ) 10 Petitioners, ) V ) DOAH 11 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3039 DISTRICT, an agency of the ) 12 State of Florida, et al., ) _____________Respondents._____) 13 ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) 14 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) 15 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) Petitioners, ) 16 V ) DOAH SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3040 17 DISTRICT, an agency of the ) State of Florida, et al., ) 18 _____________Respondents._____) 19 Deposition of Kenneth Rutchey 20 Taken before Robin L. Merker, Court 21 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at large, pursuant to notice of taking 22 deposition filed by the Petitioners in the above cause. 23 - - - Monday, February 7, 1992 24 319 Clematis Street West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 25 9:10 - 4:00 p.m. 221 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of the Petitioners Florida Sugar Cane League, Inc., United States Sugar Corp, 3 and New Hope, Inc.: 4 Earl, Blank, Kavanaugh & Stotts One Biscayne Tower 5 Suite 3636 Two South Biscayne Boulevard 6 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: MARK KOBELINSKI, ESQUIRE 7 On behalf of the Petitioners Sugar Cane Growers 8 Cooperative, Roth Farms, Inc., and WEDGEWORTH Farms, Inc.: 9 Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams 10 123 South Calhoun Street Tallahassee, Florida 32314 11 BY: WILLIAM H. GREEN, ESQUIRE and CAROLYN S. RAEPPLE 12 On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD: 13 Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, Ltd. 14 100 Southeast 2nd Street Miami, Florida 33131 15 BY: GREGORY M. CESARANO, ESQUIRE 16 On behalf of the Intervenor, United States of 17 America: 18 THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQUIRE Assistant United States Attorney 19 155 South Miami Avenue Suite 600 20 Miami, Florida 33130-1693 21 ALSO PRESENT: 22 EDWARD DOWNING MICHAEL SOUKUP 23 MICHAEL STORY 24 25 222 1 - - - 2 I N D E X 3 - - - 4 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 5 Kenneth Rutchey 6 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 5 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 226 7 - - - 8 E X H I B I T S 9 - - - 10 Rutchey Exb. No. 1 8 Development of an Everglades Vegetation Map 11 Using a SPOT Image and the Global Positioning System 12 Rutchey Exb. No. 2 33 WCA-2A Field Data Collection Sites for 30 13 classes 10-2-91 to 1-13-92 14 Rutchey Exb. No. 3 56 WCA-2A Tree Islands 15 Rutchey Exb. No. 4 67 16 WCA-2A Accuracy Assessment 3-23 to 4-24-92. 17 Rutchey Exb. No. 5 80 Laboratory Notebook 18 Rutchey Exb. No. 6 105 19 WCA 3S for SPOT 5-11-92 20 Rutchey Exb. No. 7 105 WCA 3N for SPOT 5-11-92 21 Rutchey Exb. No. 8 108 22 Inland Wetland Change Detection in the Everglades Water Conservation Area 2A Using a Time 23 Series of Normalized Remotely Sensed Data 24 Rutchey Exb. No. 9 196 Holeyland file, Bates Nos. 1220441 through 25 1220572 223 1 Rutchey Exb. No. 10 228 2 Color Map of WCA-2A, using SPOT image 4-4-87 3 Rutchey Exb. No. 11 273 Satellite imagery as of 1-25-93 4 Rutchey Exb. No. 12 278 5 Resume of Ken Rutchey 6 Rutchey Exb. No. 13 298 Memorandum dated 11-5-92 from Ken Rutchey 7 Rutchey Exb. No. 14 316 8 Memorandum dated 3-30-1990 from Michael Maceina 9 Rutchey Exb. No. 15 354 Latitudes and longitudes, coordinates 10 Rutchey Exb. No. 16 355 11 Review of Remote Sensing activities by John Jensen. 12 Rutchey Exb. No. 17 357 13 Phosphorus data 14 Rutchey Exb. No. 18 364 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey and Les Vilchek 15 dated 10-22-92 16 Rutchey Exb. No. 19 370 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 7-29-91 17 Rutchey Exb. No. 20 370 18 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 6-18-90 19 Rutchey Exb. No. 21 373 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 10-30-89. 20 Rutchey Exb. No. 22 382 21 WCA-2A fire records 22 Rutchey Exb. No. 23 384 Draft page of Everglades SWIM Plan with 23 handwritten note on back. 24 25 224 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 - - - 4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would remind Mr. 5 Rutchey that you're still under oath. 6 Let me just make a comment here. As I 7 explained just a few moments ago, prior to going 8 on the record, I have not completed my direct 9 testimony of the witness. And, in fact, given 10 the fact that we still don't have the electronic 11 data and some other documents we identified 12 yesterday, including the photos, I would have 13 difficulty doing so. However, Ms. Raepple, from 14 the Cooperative, has spoken with me and, 15 essentially, if I do not pass the baton at this 16 point in time, we're pretty much guaranteed not 17 to be able to finish Mr. Rutchey today and have 18 to call him back. 19 If I do pass the baton there is a 20 possibility that either A, I might need 21 additional redirect or we perhaps would ask 22 those questions of a different witness. So I 23 will at this time halt my direct testimony or 24 questioning. Ms. Raepple will commence, but I 25 will reserve the right to redirect or to 225 1 question Mr. Rutchey further, particularly after 2 we receive his electronic data if that need 3 arises. 4 The other comment I need to make is that 5 Mr. Rutchey is involved, or at least Dr. 6 Jensen's paper is based in part on the 2A study 7 that Mr. Rutchey did. The Jensen deposition is 8 set, I believe, for what, two weeks from 9 tomorrow or something? Is that everyone's 10 recollection? 11 MS. RAEPPLE: Um-hum. 12 MR. KOBELINSKI: He's been noticed by both 13 sides and his documents have been due. Given 14 this fact if paper is finalized, we need those 15 documents or we probably will not able to be 16 able to start. I was told there's only two days 17 he's available. He's the U.S.'s witness -- 18 MR. CESARANO: No, he's the District's 19 witness. He assured me that his documents were 20 with Federal Express yesterday, they should be 21 getting in today. 22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay. All right. 23 MR. CESARANO: We'll send them out 24 immediately -- 25 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- to you and transmit 226 1 that. 2 MR. KOBELINSKI: The only problem 3 accommodating this witness is if those are the 4 only two days we need really need to get those 5 as soon as possible. 6 MR. CESARANO: I understand. 7 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will -- under those 8 conditions, I will pass the baton to Ms. 9 Raepple. 10 If you have an objection to that, Greg, I 11 can go on, but as I said, we're guaranteed to 12 have to call him back another time. 13 MR. CESARANO: I don't think that's an 14 unreasonable request. We'll give it a try and 15 see how it develops. 16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay. 17 Thereupon, 18 Ken Rutchey 19 being by the undersigned Notary Public previously 20 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 21 CROSS (Ken Rutchey) 22 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 23 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I'm Carolyn Raepple. I'm 24 representing the Sugar Cane Grower's Cooperative of 25 Florida, Roth Farms and Wedgeworth Farms. I'm going to 227 1 ask you a number of questions today similar to what you 2 had yesterday with Mr. Kobelinski. If you don't 3 understand any of the questions I ask you, let me know, 4 I'll restate them. I'm not an expert in satellite 5 imagery interpretation. If I use a term incorrectly, 6 let me know, I'll try to restate the question in an 7 appropriate fashion. Do you understand? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. 10 In the document which has been marked as 11 Exhibit 1 to this deposition, there are some vegetative 12 maps of WCA-2 A. Has the Water Management District 13 ever created a vegetative map for WCA-2 A prior to 14 those maps? 15 A. I did a preliminary map based on an April 16 1987 SPOT satellite image which was referenced a number 17 of times in other people's work. 18 Q. Was that map produced for this deposition? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Where is it? 21 A. It -- what I produced was a folder on 22 that, the data of that map and also a big hard copy, 23 color hard copy. 24 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as -- two 25 page map as Exhibit 10. 228 1 (Thereupon, the document was marked 2 Rutchey Exb. No. 10 for Identification.) 3 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 4 Q. Is this the preliminary map to which you 5 just referenced? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When was Exhibit 10 created? 8 A. I'd say late 1987, 1988. 9 Q. Did you ground truth this map? 10 A. I went out in the field and got 11 information for the classes obtained in the map, yes. 12 Q. Would you explain the procedure that you 13 utilized to ground truth this map? 14 A. Back then we didn't have GPS. So I used 15 photography and went out in the field and visited the 16 sites and tried my best to find them in the satellite 17 imagery and extracted that information from each of 18 those types of vegetation classes, and performed a 19 supervised classification with that data. 20 Q. How could you tell whether you were at the 21 location on the ground that you thought you were at 22 when you did that site visit? 23 A. Accurately I couldn't. It's probably why 24 this piece of work has never been published. It had 25 its faults and it was more of a learning process to me 229 1 in the creation of this map. I basically did the best 2 I could from looking at the photography going out in 3 the field, and trying to determine those locations in 4 the satellite imagery. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Then you used no mechanical assistance to 7 locate yourself on the ground when you visited the site 8 for this map? 9 A. Basically at that time GPS wasn't in 10 existence and Loran is pretty inaccurate in the 11 Everglades. I would have been more accurate using 12 aerial photography then to try to use the Loran system 13 at that time. 14 Q. What type of aerial photography did you 15 utilize when you were creating Exhibit 10? 16 A. Boy, this is going back in time now. 17 We're talking five, six years. 18 I had a data set, but don't ask me what 19 date it was, I don't remember. It was close to that 20 time of Area 2. 21 Q. Was it color infrared? 22 A. It was color infrared. 23 Q. Are you familiar with the SWIM Plan for 24 the Everglades? 25 A. I've heard about it, yes. 230 1 Q. Are you familiar with the vegetative maps 2 for WCA-2 A that appear in that document? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you have any involvement in creating 5 maps for utilization in the Everglades SWIM Plan? 6 A. They might have been utilized, but it 7 was -- I didn't have any direct input to it or know 8 about it, you know, they -- that happens sometimes. 9 Q. When I reference the Everglades SWIM Plan, 10 do you understand that I'm referring to the three 11 volume set? 12 A. No. I don't have anything to do with the 13 SWIM Plan. 14 Q. Do you know how many volumes there are in 15 the Everglades SWIM Plan? 16 A. Nope. 17 Q. Have you ever seen the Everglades SWIM 18 Plan? 19 A. I might have seen the cover, but I didn't 20 take the time to read it or anything. 21 Q. Do you know whether Exhibit 10 was 22 utilized by anyone else to create a map of WCA-2A for 23 inclusion in the Everglades SWIM Plan? 24 A. Not for certain, no. 25 Q. In your judgment, would it be appropriate 231 1 to utilize Exhibit 10 for the creation of a vegetative 2 map showing the vegetation in existence in WCA-2A in 3 1987? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why would it be appropriate? 6 A. A number of people have looked at this 7 map, taken it in the helicopter and flown with it. A 8 number of us have long term knowledge of the area, been 9 out there literally hundreds of times and know the area 10 well. And this was a good representation of that area 11 at that time. 12 Q. Who have you discussed Exhibit 10 with, in 13 which they indicated that it is a good representation 14 of the vegetation in WCA-2A as it existed in the spring 15 of '87? 16 A. I would say Steve Davis, Nancy Urban, Dave 17 Swift. Those I believe are the three major -- Dewey 18 Worth. 19 Q. Okay. 20 And you yourself believe it's a good 21 representation; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have all of those individuals spent a fair 24 amount of time in WCA-2A? 25 A. Yes. 232 1 Q. About how many times have you visited 2 WCA-2A either on the ground or in a helicopter? 3 A. I would say four to 600 days, many of 4 those for one stretch period from when I officially was 5 hired at the District in 1981 to 1985. We went out 6 almost every week and spent overnight trips there three 7 days a week. 8 Q. About how many days did you spend in 9 WCA-2A during the spring of '87? 10 A. I can't recall that. I don't know. I'd 11 have to look go back and look. 12 Q. What would you look at? 13 A. Hopefully they kept records of our -- of 14 our field trips. I'm sure the County somewhere 15 probably did that. 16 Q. Can you estimate how many days you spent 17 in WCA-2A prior to the spring of 1987? 18 A. I would say that's basically most of time 19 was prior to 1987 as opposed to after. 20 Q. Most of your four to 600 days? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you estimate how much of those four to 23 600 days were spent on the ground or in an air boat as 24 opposed to in a helicopter? 25 A. These are highly speculative numbers. I 233 1 mean without records I'm really -- four to 600 2 hopefully, in that range. What percentage, I'd be 3 guessing. 4 Q. When you went into the field to verify the 5 vegetation for the creation of Exhibit 10, do you 6 recall whether you went into the field in an air boat 7 or in a helicopter? 8 A. Most of the time it was in a air boat. 9 Q. Did you keep any field notes from those 10 visits? 11 A. No, other than the report that was 12 produced for Dewey Worth for all the transects that we 13 had established in this area. 14 Q. Which report is that? 15 A. I turned it over yesterday. It's in the 16 green folder. It's the response of the drawdown study 17 response of the vegetation -- I can't recall the exact 18 name of it. 19 Q. Are you referencing Technical Publication 20 88-2 of March 1988, titled Environmental Response of 21 WCA-2A to Reduction in Regulation Schedule and Marsh 22 Drawdown? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where are your field notes reflected in 25 that report? 234 1 A. I don't think the field notes are actually 2 in the report. I think all the data that was used to 3 produce this is available in field notes. You'd have 4 talk to Dewey Worth about it, because he was the 5 primary author and he kept all that information. 6 Q. Did Dewey Worth accompany you on that 7 field trip to verify the vegetation in WCA-2A for the 8 creation of Exhibit 10? 9 A. Yes, on a few times, yes. I mean we 10 worked out there for four or five years together. 11 Q. Was he participating in the verification 12 of vegetation or was he simply along with you on the 13 trip? 14 A. I think he was just along on the trip. 15 And part -- I mean he knew about this map and that I 16 was working on it and he saw how things were moving 17 along as I was progressing and making the map. And 18 he'd have comments well, maybe this area doesn't, you 19 know, jive or look quite right and you need to work on 20 this and... 21 Q. When he made those kinds of statement, did 22 you make adjustments to Exhibit 10? 23 A. Again, this is going back a long time and 24 this is a very preliminary piece of work. I don't 25 recall, unless I go through my folder and start reading 235 1 through, how I actually produced this map other than 2 knowing I remember it was a supervised classification, 3 I used aerial photography and going out in the field to 4 ground truth. Other than that I don't remember any of 5 the details of the creation of this map. 6 Q. Did you ever speak with anyone familiar 7 with the vegetation in WCA-2A who felt Exhibit 10 was a 8 poor representation of the vegetation in WCA-2A in the 9 spring of '87? 10 A. No. 11 Q. In your judgment, is Exhibit 10 the best 12 reflection of vegetative conditions in WCA-2A in the 13 spring of '87 that exists today? 14 A. It's the best that's available, yes. 15 Q. You mentioned that you and Dewey Worth 16 worked on some transects in WCA-2A; is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Where were those transects? 19 A. They were all over the area from north to 20 south, east to west. 21 Q. How were those transects developed? 22 A. You're going have to talk to Dewey Worth 23 about that. 24 Q. Where is Dewey Worth now? 25 A. Boise, Idaho. 236 1 Q. Can you be more specific? 2 A. More specific than Boise, Idaho? 3 Q. Yes. Do you know where he works? 4 A. Department of Environmental Quality. 5 Q. Do you know whether the transects were 6 ever surveyed? 7 A. I don't think they were. I would say that 8 there's -- they've been staked, you know, they're 9 still -- they're still there basically. 10 Q. When were the stakes put in place? 11 A. Back when we actually did our initial 12 biological survey. 13 Q. In which year was that? 14 A. What year? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. It was during a period of years from '81 17 to, I'd say, approximately '85. 18 Q. And those stakes remain today up to 10, 12 19 years later? 20 A. Some of them. 21 Q. Do all the stakes remain? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What have those transects been used for by 24 the South Florida Water Management District? 25 A. I don't think they have been used since 237 1 that report. 2 Q. That report is a reference to the 3 technical publication we just referenced? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were the stakes the method utilized to 6 locate the transects when you went into the field or 7 did you have some other mechanical means of locating 8 those transects? 9 A. They -- well, we wanted to know where the 10 beginning and ending part of a transect was each time 11 we went back exactly and that was only way to do that. 12 We know where all those areas are just from our 13 familiarity with Area 2, how to get there. It's just 14 that we wanted an exact beginning point, we ran our 15 transect. 16 Q. Would you then traverse along the 17 transects to the ending point? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How did you do that? Did you have 20 anything to assist you in staying on a straight course? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What? 23 A. Basically the transects were, I think the 24 longest one might have been a thousand feet, and just 25 tried to -- we biologists, you have a long tape 238 1 measure, you have a -- one pole to the other pole, you 2 got your straight line. 3 Q. Have you established the location of any 4 of those stakes in your GPS work? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Who else within the Water Management 7 District creates vegetative maps besides yourself? 8 A. Les Vilchek. I'd say Patti Sime. 9 Q. How do you spell her last name? 10 A. S I M E. 11 There might be others, but I'm not aware 12 of them. 13 Q. Is there any one department that has the 14 overall responsibilities for vegetative mapping within 15 the District? 16 A. I'd say no. 17 Q. There's no overall coordination of 18 vegetative mapping within the District? 19 A. I'd say no. 20 Q. Does Les Vilchek work in your department? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What about Patti Sime, where does she 23 work? 24 A. It's either up in Lower District Planning 25 or Upper District Planning. 239 1 Q. Has Patti Sime assisted you in the 2 creation of any vegetative maps? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know who was responsible for the 5 creation of the vegetative maps that were included in 6 the Everglades SWIM Plan? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Based on your experience in WCA-2A since 9 1981, have the cattail which are located south of the 10 10 structures advanced as a solid monoculture or have 11 they spread by mixing in with the native vegetation and 12 sawgrass? 13 A. My personal observance is they definitely 14 have spread. And the way I have observed is initially 15 they go into slough areas which are lower, more water, 16 and they don't have vegetation. Once they get into the 17 slough areas then they encroach on the surrounding 18 sawgrass ridges and eventually out compete the sawgrass 19 and eventually form a monoculture of cattail. 20 Q. Does that pattern of cattail spread apply 21 to all locations within WCA-2A that are cattail today 22 or is that just south of the S-10's? 23 A. I can't -- I'm not sure, because I don't 24 know all locations within the -- within Area 2. I mean 25 this is the things that I've observed. I think that 240 1 they'll come in, you know, in other areas where there's 2 no sloughs, you know. I've seen that happen too when 3 they just come in thick, the sloughs aren't there, 4 they'll invade a sawgrass ridge. I mean just if we 5 have a monotypic stand of cattail, a wall moving along, 6 and there's a sawgrass ridge in the way and there's no 7 slough in between then they'll encroach on that 8 sawgrass ridge also. But most -- most of my 9 observations, if there's a slough available they'll 10 move into the slough area first and then encroach on 11 the surrounding sawgrass ridges. 12 Q. Where within WCA 2A have you seen the 13 cattail encroachment occur first in the slough and then 14 progress into a sawgrass ridge? 15 A. A number of places south of the S-10 16 structures and all the way on the southern end in along 17 L-35 all along. 18 Q. Any other areas? 19 A. Those are the two that I -- that I have 20 noticed it. 21 Q. Where have you seen cattails come into an 22 area where there was no slough? 23 A. I would say up in the north, very 24 northeast section and in the very west section adjacent 25 to the S-7 inflow structure. 241 1 Q. When did you first observe cattails on the 2 southern end of WCA-2A along L-35? 3 A. I think there's always been some cattail 4 there since I was there. I wouldn't say they were 5 always there, but as far as back as I can remember 6 there was always some. 7 Q. How far back is that? 8 A. 1981. When I say some, I -- that means -- 9 I mean a little bunch here and there. That's how I 10 remember it. 11 Q. When did you first observe cattail in the 12 very northeast section of WCA-2A? 13 A. Since 1981. 14 Q. When did you first observe cattail in the 15 west section adjacent to the S-7 inflow structure? 16 A. I would say it was during that period, '81 17 to '85, that I started -- I mean there was some there. 18 Q. There was some there in '81 when you first 19 went into the area? 20 A. I can't tell you the exact date when I 21 observed. I mean this is -- all numbers I'm giving you 22 are real approximate. I'd say somewhere between '81 23 and '85 for that area. 24 Q. For the two areas that you've testified 25 cattail was in existence when you first saw them, and 242 1 that's the southern end along the L-35 and the very 2 northeast section, is it fair to say that you don't 3 know how cattail first came into the area? 4 A. I think, you know, cattail has always been 5 in the Everglades at one point in time. It's -- 6 they're a native species. It's just they're 7 proliferating, that is the problem. 8 Q. Why is cattail proliferation a problem in 9 your judgment? 10 A. It's out of balance. It takes away from 11 the biodiversity of the fauna, the benthic community, 12 algae communities. It disrupts, basically, the whole 13 food chain, which extend, basically, to higher trophic 14 levels. 15 Q. In what way does the proliferation of 16 cattail disrupt the whole food chain? 17 A. Well, basically, when you form a dense 18 stand of monotypic cattail and there's nothing else, it 19 tends to shade everything out, light reaching the 20 water, then you don't have algae production. You don't 21 have algae production, you don't have benthics. You 22 don't have benthics, fish don't utilize it as much. 23 Fish don't utilize it as much, birds don't utilize it 24 as much. Birds don't utilize it as much, alligators 25 don't tend to hang out in those areas. They depend on 243 1 birds a lot for their food, you know. 2 Q. Have you ever seen fish in a monoculture 3 of cattail? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Have you ever seen birds in a monoculture 6 of cattail? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you ever seen wading birds in a 9 monoculture of cattail? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you ever seen wading birds feeding on 12 fish in a monoculture of cattail? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever seen alligators in a 15 monoculture of cattail? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you ever seen an alligator feeding on 18 birds in a monoculture of cattail? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You indicated previously that Exhibit 10 21 is a preliminary map. Was a final vegetative map of 22 the WCA-2A vegetation in the spring of '87 ever created 23 by someone else? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you ever calculate the acreages for 244 1 each of the vegetative classes shown on Exhibit 10? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Where are those acreages? 4 A. They were given in a folder. 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just for clarity, is it 6 one of the folders we marked yesterday, or is it 7 one that we have not as yet marked? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't 9 recall if that -- it was in one of those, no. 10 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 11 Q. I'll pass that over for the time being, 12 and perhaps we can find it on a break. 13 Other than Exhibit 10, have any other 14 vegetative maps of the WCA-2A been created prior to 15 your 1991 map? 16 A. Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q. Are you aware of all of the remote sensing 18 imagery that the District has of the WCAs, the 19 Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge and Everglades 20 National Park? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you tell me what images the District 23 has of those areas? 24 A. There's probably hundreds, and I've 25 provided that in a -- in a document. I'm not going to 245 1 try to guess all the dates that we have of all those 2 areas. 3 Q. In the documents you produced there is a 4 list of all the remotely sensed data which the District 5 has? 6 A. It's basically a listing of the database I 7 put together describing all the satellite imagery that 8 the District has in its possession. 9 Q. Was that a hard copy list, or was it 10 digitized? 11 A. It's a hard copy listing. I'm pretty sure 12 you got that folder. 13 Q. Do you know Mark Maffei? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who is he? 16 A. He's -- my description of him, he's a 17 scientist/bureaucrat for the National Park Service and 18 Water Conservation Area 1 specifically. 19 Q. Why do you call him a 20 scientist/bureaucrat? 21 A. He's -- because he's not a -- he looks at 22 everything scientifically, but he's involved in the a 23 lot of the bureaucratic processes that go on. I'm not 24 sure of all the details of what that means, but I know 25 that he's not strictly a field biologist. 246 1 Q. Have you ever spoken with him about remote 2 sensing? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know whether he has ever done any 5 mapping of the Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge 6 using remote sensing? 7 A. No. 8 Q. No, he hasn't or no, you don't know? 9 A. No, I don't know. 10 Q. Has he ever asked you to assist him in 11 mapping WCA-1 using remote sensing? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you aware of any mapping effort for 14 WCA-1 that is ongoing? 15 A. Nope. 16 Q. Do you have any maps of the vegetation in 17 WCA-1? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where are those maps? 20 A. They're all in digital form. 21 Q. Are those included in the digitized 22 records that we have yet to receive? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How many maps of WCA-1 do you have in 25 digitized form? 247 1 A. One. 2 Q. What year does it represent? 3 A. I believe it's 1987. 4 Q. How was that map created? 5 A. You'd have to ask John Richardson. 6 Q. Was it created by John Richardson? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you ever discussed with John 9 Richardson how he created that map? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is your recollection of his 12 methodology based on that conversation? 13 A. I don't recall the details. What I do 14 recall is I looked at the finished product and my 15 observances of Area 1, it looked, from what I know of 16 the area, it looked good. 17 Q. When did you look at that map? 18 A. I look at it periodically since it's been 19 produced. 20 Q. When did you first look at it? 21 A. Oh, probably late 1989, 1990. 22 Q. How did you look at it, was it hard copy 23 at that time? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What happened to that hard copy, do you 248 1 know? 2 A. The original hard copy was a promotional 3 thing that SPOT was using to showcase their satellite 4 imagery. That's what I saw. I have that in a folder. 5 I don't think you got that as it was just promotional 6 stuff by SPOT Corporation. 7 Q. What else is in that folder? 8 A. Other people's work that they've done 9 around the country using SPOT satellite imagery. 10 Q. Any other maps of the Everglades area? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When you say that map looked good based on 13 what you knew of WCA-1, how well did you know WCA-1? 14 A. I don't know it as good as Area 2, but 15 I've flown over it a number of times in the helicopter. 16 I know what the interior structure is like and what the 17 outer levee structure is like, and from my personal 18 observations I thought it was a good reflection of the 19 area. 20 Q. When you will say good, can you put a 21 percent accuracy on that or a range of percent 22 accuracy? 23 A. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. 24 Q. How many maps of the Everglades area do 25 you have in digital form, do you know? 249 1 A. Can you repeat that question? 2 Q. How many maps of the Everglades area do 3 you have in digital form, do you know? 4 A. The way you asked the question, hundreds. 5 Q. What was it about the way that I asked the 6 question that made you answer -- 7 A. You said just digital maps, that means 8 original satellite imagery. 9 Q. How many maps of vegetation in the 10 Everglades area do you have in digital form? 11 A. I'd say five or six. 12 Q. What areas are covered by those digital 13 maps? 14 A. Keep in mind some of these papers are just 15 preliminary, but 2, 1, Holeyland, Area 3, and ENR 16 project. 17 Q. And all of those vegetation maps will be 18 in digitized files that we have yet to obtain? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Were all of those vegetation maps created 21 using remotely sensed data? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Going back to the map that you indicated 24 John Richardson created of WCA-1, was that created 25 utilizing SPOT imagery, do you know? 250 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. These five or six vegetation maps that you 3 have in digital form, did you create all of them? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know how many vegetation maps you 6 have of WCA-2? 7 A. Two 8 Q. Are those the two we've already discussed 9 in this deposition? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How many digital maps of WCA-1 do you 12 have? 13 A. One. 14 Q. Is that the John Richardson map? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How many digital maps of the Holeyland do 17 you have? And that's -- excuse me, that's digital 18 vegetation maps of the Holeyland. 19 A. There's probably half a dozen. 20 Q. Did you create all of those vegetation 21 maps? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you recall the dates of those maps? 24 A. I can give you a span of time, 1980 to 25 current. 251 1 Q. Who created the earliest of those 2 vegetation maps, do you know? 3 A. I believe -- I believe it was the 4 Department of Transportation. 5 Q. Who created the subsequent maps, do you 6 know? 7 A. Game and Fish and South Florida Water 8 Management District. 9 Q. How many have been created by the South 10 Florida Water Management District? 11 A. One and one preliminary. 12 Q. The one that is in final form, what is the 13 date of that map, do you know? 14 A. We talked about it yesterday. It's 15 cattail work. 16 Q. That was the cattail work where you and 17 Sue Newman and Les Vilchek flew in a helicopter, all 18 estimated the coverage of cattail in an area, then you 19 averaged those estimates -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- is that correct? All right. 22 What about the preliminary map, who 23 created that? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. When was that created? 252 1 A. I would say it was 12 to 18 months ago. 2 Q. For what purpose was that created? 3 A. Basically I was just trying to look at 4 land patterns and do a preliminary look at the data, 5 see what I could pull out as far as vegetation, and I 6 sort of got pulled off to -- onto another project and 7 never finished. 8 Q. Was anyone assisting you in that mapping 9 effort? 10 A. Les Vilchek. 11 Q. When I get these digital maps, will the 12 digitized file indicate which of the maps are final and 13 which ones are preliminary? 14 A. No. 15 Q. I'd have to ask you which ones were 16 preliminary? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How far along were you in your vegetation 19 mapping effort 12 to 18 months ago for the Holeyland? 20 A. If I recall, I separated some things out, 21 but basically I wasn't looking to do a final product 22 with satellite imagery. I wanted to use that as an aid 23 for using aerial photography. 24 Q. What kind of aerial photography? 25 A. We went over this yesterday, but the 253 1 November, December NASA flight that was flown. 2 Q. I believe it was in regard to that prior 3 discussion in yesterday's deposition that you testified 4 that you believe using aerial photography would be more 5 accurate. Do you recall that testimony? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Why do you believe aerial photography 8 would be more accurate than satellite imagery? 9 A. Well, this latest effort, if you look at 10 just the overall map accuracy, you have 81 percent for 11 this area, which is excellent for this particular work. 12 Using photography you can probably get up around 95 13 percent. It's a much more detailed and a longer effort 14 in producing, but more accurate. But -- never mind. 15 Q. In this deposition whenever you are 16 referencing aerial photography, I'm assuming you mean 17 color infrared aerial photography. Is that a correct 18 assumption? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Will you tell me if we start talking about 21 aerial photography where you're not referencing color 22 infrared? 23 A. All I use is color infrared. 24 (Mr. Green left the room.) 25 254 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Okay. 3 How much vegetation mapping have you 4 personally done using color infrared photography? 5 A. I would say right now we have a good 6 effort going on in the ENR project. 7 Q. When will that be complete? 8 A. It's an ongoing project for, from what I 9 hear, from now till eternity. I'm not told a dead drop 10 date. 11 Q. Are you intending to produce a final map 12 from that ongoing project? 13 A. There'll be a map produced every three 14 months, approximately. 15 Q. Do you know the purpose of creating a map 16 every three months? 17 A. To show a trend analysis of the vegetation 18 communities of 1. 19 Q. How many of those maps have been generated 20 to date? 21 A. None. 22 Q. When do you project the first map being 23 complete? 24 A. Within the next four weeks, three to four 25 weeks. 255 1 Q. Who is assisting you in that mapping 2 effort? 3 A. Les Vilchek. 4 Q. Going back to the digital maps that you 5 have, you indicated that you have some vegetation maps 6 for WCA-3; is that correct? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. How many do you have? 9 A. Again, it's same as the Holeyland area, 10 it's preliminary, and same -- it was used for the same 11 purposes using the NASA aerial photography, just 12 basically trying to find land patterns. 13 Q. Is there just one map, vegetation map of 14 WCA-3? 15 A. There's really -- at this point there's no 16 map, it's preliminary data. 17 Q. How many vegetation maps in digital form 18 do you have for the ENR project? 19 A. None. 20 Q. What other types of digital maps do you 21 have other than vegetation maps? 22 A. Boy, I mean does that include graphs 23 and -- 24 Q. Let me be more specific. Do you have any 25 digital maps of the Everglades area that show 256 1 topography? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the 4 Everglades area that show soils? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the 7 Everglades area that show water quality? 8 A. Not that I recall. I'll take that back, 9 yes. 10 Q. What kind of water quality, surface water 11 or interstitial? 12 A. What is your definition of those two 13 terms? 14 Q. Well, why don't you tell me what kind of 15 water quality digital maps you have for the Everglades 16 area? 17 A. Basically I have all of John Richardson's 18 data that he did, and some of the things he did was, I 19 believe, water quality when he went out and collected 20 samples. 21 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the 22 Everglades area that show water depth? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Are there any other digital maps of the 25 Everglades area similar to the types we've just 257 1 described that you have? 2 A. Not to my knowledge. That doesn't mean 3 there isn't out of all the time I've been out at the 4 District. 5 Q. What about a digital map of fire 6 locations, do you have any of those? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In the digitized files that you will be 9 producing, will all of these digital maps be included? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Are all of the digital maps that are for 12 not vegetation maps final maps or are there any -- are 13 there some preliminary maps in there as well? 14 A. I don't -- could you repeat that again? 15 Q. Okay. 16 When we talked about your digital 17 vegetation maps you indicated that some of them are 18 final, some of them are preliminary. 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And that the digitized file will not 21 indicate which ones are final or preliminary, I'll have 22 to talk to you about which ones are. Do you remember 23 that testimony? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Now I'm asking you about these other 258 1 digital maps, the topographic maps, the soils, the 2 water quality, the water depths, and fire locations, 3 are some of those preliminary maps, do you know? 4 A. I think most of those are final. 5 Q. Do you know whether any of them are 6 preliminary? 7 A. I think those are mostly final. To the 8 best of my knowledge they're all final. 9 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 10 record and Mr. Green returned.) 11 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 12 Q. Who created topographic digital maps that 13 you'll be producing? 14 A. I created one. 15 Q. Are there any other topographic digital 16 maps that you'll be producing? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Who created the soil digital maps that 20 you'll be producing? 21 A. John Richardson. 22 Q. Do you know how many soil digital maps 23 you'll be producing? 24 A. I think that's just one. 25 Q. Do you know the date of that map? 259 1 A. It -- I think it was in the period of 2 around 1987-88. 3 Q. You indicated that the water quality 4 digital maps are all John Richardson's; is that 5 correct? 6 A. (Shakes head up and down.) 7 Q. Do you know how many maps there are? 8 A. No, there's many files. 9 Q. Do you know what time span they cover? 10 A. I think it's all around '87, 87-88. 11 Q. Do you know what area of coverage the 12 water quality maps are for? 13 A. Area 1. 14 Q. All of them? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What about the soils map, what area is 17 covered by that map? 18 A. Area 1. 19 Q. What about the topographic map that you 20 created, what area is covered by that? 21 A. Holeyland. 22 Q. When did you create that map? 23 A. I'd say approximately three months ago. 24 Q. For what purpose? 25 A. It's one of the parameters to be looked as 260 1 for the reason why cattail has expanded so rapidly 2 within that area. 3 Q. What methodology did you utilize to create 4 that topographic map? 5 A. I was provided information from Game and 6 Fish of 196 points evenly -- pretty evenly distributed 7 through out the area. I took that data and created a 8 TIN and then created a contour from that within 9 ARC/INFO. 10 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 11 record.) 12 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 13 Q. How many water depth digital maps will you 14 producing? 15 A. Well, if -- the way that I work, if you 16 know the elevations and you have water, you can produce 17 water depth maps basically if you know the bottom 18 contour and you know how deep it is. So maybe many. I 19 have, you know -- 20 Q. When you say many, would that require the 21 merging of two databases to create a water depth map? 22 A. The one I will be providing is one by -- 23 Game and Fish gave us. 24 Q. What was the area of coverage for that 25 map? 261 1 A. The Holeyland. 2 Q. What is the date of that map? 3 A. I would say sometime in 1993. 4 Q. Do you know why that water depth map for 5 the Holeyland was created? 6 A. I think they were concerned that the -- 7 that we didn't have a good handle on the water depths 8 within that area. That's just one more parameter to 9 look at in trying to figure out why cattail established 10 so rapidly within that area. 11 Q. Do you know why the Game and Freshwater 12 Fish Commission felt the District doesn't have a good 13 handle on water depths in the area? 14 A. No. 15 Q. How many fire location digital maps will 16 be produced? 17 A. One. 18 Q. What is the area of coverage for that map? 19 A. Holeyland. 20 Q. When was that produced? 21 A. Basically it shows muck fires from 1990 to 22 present, I believe. 23 Q. Who created that map? 24 A. I guess I did. 25 Q. Where did you obtain the data to create 262 1 that map? 2 A. Game and Fish. 3 Q. You testified that you created a 4 topographic map of the Holeyland using the 196 points 5 of data given to you by the Game and Freshwater Fish 6 Commission. Did you make any attempt to ground truth 7 that topographic map? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know whether anyone has? 10 A. I -- I have, to a point, looking at an old 11 survey. It's not that old, but a survey that was done 12 in the Holeyland on ground survey, and I looked at 13 those numbers and -- to see if they were reasonable. 14 Q. What -- were you able to form a judgment 15 as to the accuracy of the topographic map that you 16 created? 17 A. Yeah, I think it's an excellent 18 representation of -- topographically of that area. 19 That's a lot of points to have work with in creating a 20 topographic map. 21 (Mr. Green left the room.) 22 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 23 Q. Could you estimate the percent accuracy of 24 that mapping effort? 25 A. No. 263 1 Q. How did you come into possession of all of 2 these digital maps that you've described? 3 A. All the digital maps that I've described? 4 Q. Yes. Or, in other words, are you the 5 District custodian for digital maps? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Who is the custodian for the digital maps? 8 A. Everyone at the District. 9 Q. So that there is no single entity that's 10 in control of all the digital maps at the District? 11 A. (No response.) 12 Q. Is there any index of all the digital maps 13 that exist at the District? 14 A. Not that I know of. That would be nice. 15 Q. Do you know whether any of the witnesses 16 testifying in this proceeding will be relying on any of 17 the digital maps that you have in your files? 18 A. Can you repeat that again? 19 Q. Do you know whether any of the witnesses 20 testifying in this proceeding will be relying on any of 21 the digitized maps from your files? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 Q. Do you have any digital maps on soil 24 phosphorus in the Everglades area? 25 A. Yes. 264 1 Q. How many of those do you have? 2 A. Well, two that I know of. 3 Q. Who created those maps? 4 A. John Richardson and -- 5 Q. What -- oh, excuse me, were there other 6 authors? 7 A. No. 8 Q. John Richardson created both of those 9 digital maps? 10 A. No, John Richardson and John Jensen. 11 Q. What area of coverage is the John 12 Richardson soil phosphorus map? 13 A. Area 1. 14 Q. What area of coverage is the soil 15 phosphorus map created by John Jensen? 16 A. Area 2. 17 Q. Do you know the date of the John 18 Richardson Area 1 map? 19 A. I think it's '87, '88. 20 Q. Do you know the date of John Jensen Area 2 21 soil phosphorus map? 22 A. I believe it was '92 or '93 data. 23 Q. Where did John Jensen get that '92 or '93 24 soil phosphorus data, do you know? 25 A. Marguerite Koch. 265 1 Q. Do you know whether either of those maps 2 are preliminary in form or whether they're both final? 3 A. I think they're both final products. 4 Q. If the Water Management District was 5 coordinated with Mark Maffei on the creation of a WCA-1 6 map, who would be doing that coordination, do you know? 7 A. Can you say that again? 8 (Thereupon, Messrs. Fitzgerald and Soukup 9 joined the deposition.) 10 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 11 Q. If the District were coordinated with Mark 12 Maffei to create a WCA-1 map, who would be doing that 13 coordinating on behalf of the District, do you know? 14 A. I'm not sure. 15 Q. But you're not doing any such 16 coordination; is that correct? 17 A. No. 18 Q. I can't recall if I asked you this, 19 forgive me if I'm repeating myself. 20 Are you able to place any percentage of 21 accuracy on Exhibit 10? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Are you able to place a range of 24 percentage for accuracy of Exhibit 10? 25 A. No. 266 1 (Mr. Green returned.) 2 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 3 Q. When I get the digital maps that you've 4 described, will the date of the data used to create 5 those maps be included in the digitized file? 6 A. The only way it might be included is if 7 it's printed on the map. 8 Q. On the hard copy map? 9 A. Or what you're viewing digitally on the 10 screen. 11 (Mr. Downing left.) 12 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 13 Q. Do you know whether all of the digital 14 maps will have a date on them? 15 A. I think a lot of them won't. 16 Q. Will there be any way to determine the 17 date of the data used to create those maps for which no 18 date is shown? 19 A. Probably not. 20 Q. Would you know the date of the data used 21 to create those maps? 22 A. The ones I produced. 23 Q. Do you know the date of the data used to 24 create the one preliminary map for WCA 3? 25 A. May 1992. 267 1 Q. Do you know the date of the data used to 2 create the one preliminary map of the Holeyland that 3 you created? 4 A. May 1992. 5 Q. Do you know the date of the data used for 6 John Richardson to create the WCA-1 map? 7 A. April 1987. 8 Q. For the two WCA-2 maps that you created, I 9 believe we've already discussed this in deposition, the 10 date of that data, haven't we? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 And you said there will be no digital maps 14 on the ENR project; is that correct? 15 A. No. Yes, that's correct. 16 Q. How are the vegetation maps that are going 17 to be produced every three months for the ENR project 18 being created? What is the methodology you and Les 19 Vilchek are using? 20 A. They're being flown at two different 21 scales, one 6,000, one at 36,000. We're having 22 1:36,000 digitally scanned into the computer and 23 creating -- we're rectifying that imagery and using it 24 as -- and making a hard copy output and using it as a 25 base map on a zoom transfer scope -- zoom transfer 268 1 scope, it's a stereoscope. And we're actually looking 2 at the photography stereoscopically and drawing on a 3 Mylar overlay over the base map the boundaries of 4 signatures that we see. And we go out in the field and 5 we determine what those boundaries are on the ground. 6 Take that map, that base map once we have all the 7 ground truth information, and digitize it into ARC/INFO 8 to create a final map. 9 Q. How is the 1:6,000 aerial photography 10 used? 11 A. It's what we're actually using to 12 delineate what we're seeing in the area. 13 Q. So the stereoscopic analysis is done on 14 1:6,000? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who is doing the stereoscopic analysis? 17 A. Les Vilchek and myself. 18 Q. What training do you have in stereoscopic 19 analysis? 20 A. I have no training, but it's not that -- 21 it's not that difficult of a task. I believe just 22 about anybody could do it. 23 Q. Is the stereoscopic analysis for the 24 purpose of identifying vegetation species? 25 A. Or mixed communities. 269 1 Q. You said that during the stereoscopic 2 analysis you draw boundaries on the map or on Mylar 3 over the base map; is that correct? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Are those the boundaries between two 6 signatures? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then when you go in the field, do you 9 ascertain what is within those boundaries or do you 10 simply verify what you thought you saw in the 11 stereoscopic analysis? 12 A. You ascertain what you believe that 13 signature to be. You go out in the field and you 14 ground truth it. 15 Q. Talk me about me a little bit about the 16 ground truthing. Do you do it in a helicopter or in an 17 air boat? 18 A. So far it's been air boat. 19 Q. How do you locate -- when you are on the 20 ground do you use GPS? 21 A. Nope. 22 Q. How do you locate where you are on the 23 ground? 24 A. At a 1:6,000 scale I could see something 25 probably size of that folder there, so I could go 270 1 pretty much anywhere I want in that area looking at 2 that photography, know exactly where I'm at. 3 Q. You could see something about 10 inches by 4 14 inches? 5 A. Well, let's say -- let's say 18 by 18. 6 That's being conservative. 7 Q. What kind of things do you see in the 8 1:6,000 that are 18 by 18 inches or larger that help 9 you position yourself on the ground? 10 A. I'm not looking for things that are 18 by 11 18. I'm just looking for general patterns. I'm 12 telling you that you can go -- 1:6,000, it's a real 13 luxury to work with. I can go anywhere I want in the 14 photography and know where I'm at, it's very simple. 15 Q. With what level of precision can you 16 locate yourself on the ground using 1:6,000 aerials? 17 A. If you mean from the point of view when 18 I'm looking at that photo I go to the signature and I 19 go there and standing on, looking at the photo, I'm 20 looking around, I'd say a hundred percent. 21 Q. Can you locate yourself within some number 22 of meters using that methodology? 23 A. Well, after you go back and you transfer 24 it to the base map you know within a certain number of 25 meters where you were. 271 1 Q. Explain that to me. 2 A. Well, when you see a raw photo out in the 3 field, it's not any real world map projection, it's 4 just a raw photo. So I go out in the field, I go to a 5 location, the signature polygon region that I'm 6 uncertain, I go there, we determine what it is, we mark 7 it, we go back. Now put it to the base map, and the 8 base map has been rectified so I can transfer what I'm 9 seeing on the photo on that base map if it's rectified. 10 I now have a location of where that area is at. 11 This is all state of the art 12 photogrammetric -- I'm not inventing the wheel here. 13 It's been used since 1920, 1900's. I mean it's there's 14 volumes and volumes of books written on it, I'm not 15 doing anything out of the ordinary here. 16 Q. How small of a signature area are you able 17 to map using that methodology? 18 A. Well, you know, it's possible to go down 19 to, I'd say, about 18 inches by 18 inches. 20 Q. Are you mapping to that level of accuracy 21 for the ENR project? 22 A. No. 23 Q. How small of an area are you trying to map 24 for the ENR project? 25 A. Our minimum mapping unit is 25 meters by 272 1 25 meters. That was where -- we're doing a little bit 2 more than that, but that was our established minimum 3 map unit. 4 Q. When you go out into the ENR to ground 5 truth these maps with Les Vilchek, describe for me what 6 you do. 7 A. Well, initially we create a bunch of 8 polygon regions within the color infrared 1:6,000 scale 9 photography. And we go out in the field, visit all 10 these sites, write down what we think it is, mark it on 11 the -- over on the Mylar, over the color infrared 12 photography and that's it. It's a fairly simple 13 process. 14 Q. Have you and Les Vilchek split up the 15 responsibilities for that ground truthing effort in any 16 way? 17 A. No, I think we're working on it together 18 pretty much. 19 Q. Do you split up the work or do you do 20 every step as a team? 21 A. We're doing all steps as a team. 22 MS. RAEPPLE: Why don't we take about a 23 five minute break. 24 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 25 record.) 273 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Is that the file? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. The whole thing? 5 A. (No response.) 6 Q. We need the whole thing to identify all of 7 the remotely sensed imagery that the District has? 8 That's fine. 9 A. Well, take that out. 10 (Thereupon, the document was marked 11 Rutchey Exb. No. 11 for Identification.) 12 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 13 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I show you this document 14 which has been marked as Exhibit 11. Can you identify 15 that document? 16 A. Yes, this is a database of imagery that's 17 available at the District that I put together. 18 Q. Is that the most current listing of all of 19 the remotely sensed data that the District has? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Who would have an up-to-date listing of 22 all the remotely sensed data in the possession of the 23 District? 24 A. I would. 25 Q. Do you have a more current listing in your 274 1 digitized files? 2 A. No. 3 Q. That document which is Exhibit 11, says at 4 the top it's as of January 25, '93 is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All of the remotely sensed data that the 7 District had as of that date are reflected on Exhibit 8 11; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How many scenes of remotely sensed data, 11 approximately, has the District acquired since that 12 date? 13 A. I would say -- let me just look. 30 to 14 40. 15 Q. How could I identify what those 30 or 40 16 additional scenes are that have been acquired since the 17 date of Exhibit 11? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Who has possession of those 30 to 40 20 scenes? 21 A. Lower District Planning. 22 Q. Do you know why Lower District Planning 23 has those scenes? 24 A. Basically they go out and buy the whole 25 District every year, SPOT specific. 275 1 Q. By SPOT specific, do you mean from the 2 SPOT satellite? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know whether the Lower District 5 Planning s purchase of the entire District from SPOT is 6 all of the additional remotely sensed imagery that has 7 been acquired since Exhibit 11 was created? 8 A. It's the only imagery that I'm aware of. 9 Q. When referencing remotely sensed imagery, 10 are you referencing only satellite imagery; is that 11 your understanding of the term? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would that include color infrared? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Is there a listing of all of the color 16 infrared aerial photography available in the District? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Who has possession of the color infrared 19 photography in the District's possession? 20 A. It's spread out throughout the District. 21 Q. Do you have some of that color infrared 22 photography in your files? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Has that been produced? 25 A. It's -- I've talked to our attorneys about 276 1 it, and I think they're going have to have you come. 2 There's cabinets and cabinets full of it. It would be 3 very expensive to reproduce. 4 Q. When did you have that discussion with 5 your attorneys about the cabinets of color infrared 6 photography? 7 A. It was Sharron Follins, and it was, I 8 would say, approximately the last -- mid last week. 9 Q. Do you know whether any of the color 10 infrared photography that is in your files will be 11 relied on by witnesses testifying in this proceeding? 12 A. I'm not sure. 13 Q. Have you made copies -- well, first of all 14 when someone within the District wants to utilize color 15 infrared photography from your files do you give them 16 the original or do you make copies for them? 17 A. No. We give them the original. 18 Q. In the last six months have you sent 19 original color infrared photography to anyone within 20 the District? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What about in the six months prior to 23 that? 24 A. No. 25 Yes, there was one. Boy. 277 1 Q. Who was that? 2 A. Somebody in Upper District Planning. I 3 don't recall the exact area. 4 Q. Do you recall what scene they requested? 5 A. It was an area, a photography -- it's 6 not -- it's -- I remember it was north of Lake 7 Okeechobee somewhere. 8 Q. In the last six months has anyone come to 9 review aerial photography from your files? 10 A. I think so. I'm not sure if it's 11 borderline, six months, yeah, somewhere around six 12 months ago. 13 Q. Who came around six months ago to review 14 color infrared photography from your files? 15 A. Steve Coughlin with Game and Fish. 16 Q. Do you know what photography he reviewed? 17 A. If I remember, it was Water Conservation 18 Area 3. 19 Q. Do you know for what purpose he was 20 reviewing that photography? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. In the period of time of six months to 12 23 months ago, did anyone come and review the color 24 infrared photography in your files? 25 A. No, I don't think so. 278 1 Q. In the documents that you've produced 2 there was included a resume. I'm going to mark that as 3 Exhibit 12. 4 (Thereupon, the document was marked 5 Rutchey Exb. No. 12 for Identification.) 6 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 7 Q. Is that a current resume? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. It indicates that from about 1981 to 1986 10 you worked on the WCA-2A drawdown study with Dewey 11 Worth? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What does what drawdown study entail? 14 A. All that it detailed is written in a 15 report that was done by Dewey worth. 16 Q. Is that technical publication 88-2, dated 17 March 1988? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What was your involvement in that study? 20 A. Basically I went out in the field with 21 Dewey and we collected the data together. I analyzed a 22 lot of the data. Basically a lot of graphs in the 23 final report are mine. 24 Q. What type of data did you collect as part 25 of that study? 279 1 A. Biological surveillance of vegetation. 2 Q. Do you know the purpose of collecting that 3 kind of data? 4 A. It was to -- there was a change in the 5 regulation schedule and we were monitoring the results 6 of that. 7 Q. When did that change in the regulation 8 schedule occur? 9 A. I don't recall the exact date. It's in -- 10 it's in the report. 11 Q. Do you know what the water stage was 12 before the drawdown? 13 A. Again, it's in the report. There's 14 hydrographs showing throughout the project what the 15 hydrology was within the area. 16 Q. What about the water stage after the 17 drawdown, do you know what that was? 18 A. Not off top of my head, no. 19 Q. Would that also be shown in technical 20 publication 88-2? 21 A. I don't believe so. 22 Q. Where could I find data showing the water 23 stage after the drawdown study? 24 A. Well, if I had to go find it right now I'd 25 talk to Robb Startzman. 280 1 Q. Would you spell his last name, please? 2 A. S T A R T Z M A N. 3 Q. How did you collect the biological data 4 and conduct surveillance of vegetation? 5 A. Basically all the methods that are in that 6 paper. Basically we just set up transects in basically 7 three types of areas, slough, sawgrass ridges and tree 8 islands. And along the transect line, every so many 9 feet, a predetermined amount, we put out a transect, a 10 quadrat out to the side and we measure percent cover of 11 species that were within that coverage or presence or 12 absence. And sometimes we take out a biomass cutting, 13 bring it back to the lab and dry it out, and we took 14 soil cores. Everything's in that report. 15 Q. Did you create maps from that data 16 collection? 17 A. Just the graphical depictions that are 18 within that report. 19 Q. Were those transects ever surveyed? 20 A. Not my knowledge, no. I don't think so. 21 Q. Were those transects ever located within 22 any degree of precision on a map? 23 A. I wouldn't say so, no. It depends on your 24 definition of precision. 25 Q. How precisely have those transect 281 1 locations been recorded on a map? 2 A. Oh, I'd say they're probably pretty 3 accurate to about a mile, a mile or two. 4 Q. And those are maps shown in technical 5 publication 88-2? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When you collected data as part of this 8 drawdown study, did you do it in an air boat? 9 A. Yes. And we used helicopters sometimes. 10 Q. What would a helicopter be used for? 11 A. When you couldn't get out there in an air 12 boat. 13 Q. Then you would go out in a helicopter and 14 land; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When you collected the biological data and 17 surveillance of vegetation, did you keep field notes? 18 A. I didn't. 19 Q. Did you take any photographs? 20 A. Yes, there was photographs taken. 21 Q. Are those still available? 22 A. You'd have to talk to Dewey Worth. I have 23 some that were taken from helicopter. 24 Q. Would Dewey Worth have taken those photos 25 with him to Boise, Idaho? 282 1 A. He took a lot of stuff with him. You'd 2 have to ask Dewey Worth. 3 Q. Is it standard practice for the District 4 to allow original data to be taken by employees when 5 they leave the District, do you know? 6 A. I'm not sure. 7 Q. Do you know whether that happens? 8 A. I'm not sure. You know, I know Dewey 9 left. I'm not surely if he made duplicates. I'm not 10 surely of all the facts. 11 Q. Are you the custodian of Dewey Worth's 12 files now that he's no longer with the District? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Who has Dewey Worth's old files? 15 A. I think a number of people have some of 16 those files. 17 Q. Who are those people? 18 A. I'm not sure. 19 Q. Do you have any of Dewey's old 20 photographic files? 21 A. I have some, yes. 22 Q. Do you know whether you have the 23 photographs that were taken during your data collection 24 for the drawdown study? 25 A. Not without going through them. 283 1 Q. Have those photographs been produced? 2 A. No. They're, you know, slides at this 3 point. There's some photos too. 4 Q. Do you know why the photographs and slides 5 were not produced? 6 A. Well, I -- like I said, I talked to 7 Sharron. Basically the request that she gave me is 8 that you wanted a hard copy of every satellite image 9 that we ever acquired at the District. I told her that 10 would take me about a year and a half to complete. And 11 you wanted a duplication of the photography. And I 12 said that would cost many thousands, maybe tens of 13 thousand of dollars so maybe you should ask them if 14 they want to do that. I haven't heard anything since. 15 Q. When you used a helicopter to obtain the 16 biological sampling and reconnaissance of the 17 vegetation, you testified that that was when it was 18 difficult or impossible to use an air boat; is that 19 correct? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Would that have been in dry periods? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Would that have included the 1985 drought 24 period? 25 A. It might have. 284 1 Q. Were you continuing to gather data in the 2 1985 time frame? 3 A. We were getting toward the end there of 4 collecting data. 5 Q. Will technical publication 88-2 indicate 6 the dates on which data was collected? 7 A. I believe it did. 8 Q. Would you please show me where that 9 occurs? 10 A. Here, this is -- it tells you -- you have 11 to read. I mean it's not all in one place. It tells 12 you year, and then it tells you the period and then 13 keep going on. 14 Q. Can you tell from this discussion in 15 technical publication 88-2 whether you were collecting 16 data during the 1985 drought period? 17 A. It doesn't appear so from reading that, 18 but then again, I don't remember the exact date of the 19 drought period of when it started. 20 Q. Um-hum. 21 What conclusions were drawn from the 22 drawdown study? 23 A. I'd like to say that Dewey is probably the 24 best person to ask these questions. What I got from it 25 was that the regulation schedule needed to be -- should 285 1 be readjusted, and I believe it was as a result of that 2 drawdown study. 3 Q. In what way did you believe that the 4 regulation schedule should be readjusted? 5 A. I think we showed that many of the tree 6 islands in the southern region were impacted from 7 hydrology, basically the -- basically the bigger trees 8 were dying out, or had died out. They were basically 9 what I would call remnant tree islands. 10 Q. In what way did you recommend the 11 regulation schedule be readjusted, further up or 12 further down? 13 A. Down. 14 Q. Do you know whether any follow-up studies 15 have been conducted in WCA-2A to determine whether the 16 regulation schedule should be readjusted again? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Did the drawdown study result in any 19 conclusions about whether vegetative changes were 20 nutrient induced? 21 A. To my knowledge, no. 22 Q. Other than the tree islands dying out in 23 the south end of WCA-2A, did the drawdown study result 24 in any conclusions about hydroperiod induced changes to 25 vegetation? 286 1 A. I'd say yes. 2 Q. What were those conclusions? 3 A. Well, like I just previously stated, prior 4 to the study the water -- it was an impounded area and 5 we believe the water was too high, drowned out a lot of 6 bigger trees on the island. 7 Q. When you say the water was too high, are 8 you talking about during the '70's it was too high or 9 after the drawdown it was too high? 10 A. After, in the '70's. 11 Q. Perhaps I misunderstood your testimony. I 12 thought you had told me that as a result of the study 13 you and Dewey Worth recommended that the regulation 14 scheduled be readjusted. Was that readjustment after 15 the initial drawdown? 16 A. You know, I'm going to refer all these 17 questions to Dewey, because this was his project. And 18 it wasn't, you know, I was just more -- at that time it 19 was -- I was just a technician. And the answers I'm 20 giving you, I feel like a lot of them I just think you 21 should ask Dewey. It's his paper, I'm not going to try 22 to answer the questions for what he wrote. 23 Q. Did you not draw any personal conclusions 24 from those five years of work? 25 A. Yeah, I've already stated one thing that I 287 1 got out of it, which is basically I think the water was 2 kept at too high an elevation during the '70's and that 3 the regulation schedule needed to be readjusted to try 4 to bring some of these tree islands back. 5 Q. Did you draw any other conclusions about 6 vegetative changes as a result of hydroperiod, as 7 result of that work? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You testified that some of the graphics in 10 technical publication 88-2 were your own; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Could you tell me which of the graphics 14 you created? 15 A. I would say Figure 2, Figure 3, Figure 4, 16 Figure 5, Table 1, Figure 6, Figure 7, Figure 8, Figure 17 9, Figure 10, Figure 11, Figure 12, Figure 14, Figure 18 17, Figure 18, Appendix Figure 1, 2, 3. 19 Q. Figure 4 is a predrawdown dominant plant 20 community in WCA-2A. How did you create that figure? 21 A. Basically I'm going tell you the same 22 answer for all those. Dewey directed me to create this 23 graph. That's how I did it, so you have to ask Dewey 24 on why or how he got the data. 25 Q. When you created figure 4, data was given 288 1 to you by Dewey Worth; is that correct? 2 A. He basically said how he wanted the figure 3 to look like, yeah. The data was given to me by Dewey. 4 Q. Did he tell you where to draw the 5 boundaries between different vegetation types? 6 A. Yes. This is Dewey's work, that's why his 7 name is on the paper. I was just a technician at this 8 time. You're asking the wrong person. 9 Q. Then when you say you created these 10 figures you mean you put pen to paper? 11 A. Basically. 12 Q. But you did not analyze the data to create 13 the figures; is that correct? 14 A. I analyzed some of the data. 15 Q. But not for Figure 4? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know what the vegetation 18 communities in WCA-2A were in the predrawdown time 19 period? 20 A. I personally don't, no. 21 Q. In your summary it says, under the summary 22 of experience, I believe it's the last sentence, that 23 basically for the past six years you've been doing 24 detection of wetlands use GIS and image 25 processing/remote sensing applications; is that 289 1 correct? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Do you consider yourself an expert in 4 detection of wetlands using GIS and image 5 processing/remote sensing applications? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you keep up with the literature on 8 image processing and remote sensing applications? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In what way do you keep up with the 11 literature? 12 A. I read the Journal of Photogrammetric 13 Engineering and Remote Sensing, International Journal 14 of Remote Sensing, Remote Sensing of the Environment, 15 and there's another one, Geocarto, those are the major 16 ones that I -- 17 Q. For how long have you been reading those 18 journals? 19 A. I would say since I started reading them, 20 around '87, '88. 21 Q. Do you also consider yourself to be an 22 expert in biology? 23 A. Expert, what's your definition of an 24 expert. 25 Q. Do you consider yourself to have special 290 1 knowledge of the area that would assist someone who 2 does not have that knowledge in understanding the area? 3 A. Which area? 4 Q. Well, biology. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. 7 How do you define an expert? 8 A. Excuse me? 9 Q. Well, you told me you thought you were an 10 expert in -- 11 A. I don't -- 12 Q. -- detection of wetlands using GIS and 13 image processing/remote sensing applications. 14 A. I think I would -- somebody who's now at 15 level where they're publishing their work and they're 16 being accepted by their peers is approaching or is at 17 expert level. 18 Q. By accepted by peers, who are the peers 19 that you're referencing? 20 A. Well, when you publish, you know, a number 21 people read your manuscript. And they could be turned 22 down or accepted. They just don't take in it and put 23 it in the magazine or, you know, the journal. 24 Especially in the District it's even 25 tougher, because we have a whole order of process that 291 1 we go through to get it even out the door, before it 2 can even get to the journal. We start off, just within 3 our division, there's already half a dozen other 4 scientists who review your work and it goes outside of 5 the division to all departments in the building, 6 probably have another dozen people review your work. 7 It has to be signed off by your department director, by 8 the board, and then finally it can go outside the 9 District to a journal. 10 Q. Is that internal review process applied to 11 all journal publications by District employees? 12 A. I think so. 13 Q. That's before the document is submitted to 14 a journal for consideration? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was Exhibit 1 to this deposition subjected 17 to that internal review process? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who all reviewed Exhibit 1 prior to 20 publication within the District? 21 A. I'm not sure I'm going to recall all the 22 names, but Rick Alleman, Garth Redfield, Tom Fontaine, 23 Tony Federico, Pete Rhoads, Brent Moll. I think Steve 24 Davis. There's probably other people I'm not even 25 aware of. Maybe I don't remember all the names. Those 292 1 are the major ones I can remember. 2 Q. And then did you say the board has to 3 review and approve the publication as well? 4 A. Right. It goes before the board, and they 5 each get a copy. Whether they read it or not, I'm not 6 sure. And, you know, they have a lot of things on 7 their agenda. I doubt if they seriously read the whole 8 thing from cover to cover. But they have to give their 9 nod that it's okay. 10 Q. Were you in attendance when the board 11 approved Exhibit 1 for publication? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did they ask you any questions about it? 14 A. Nope. 15 Q. Did any of the other reviewers ask you any 16 questions or make comments about Exhibit 1? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you make any changes to Exhibit 1 in 19 reaction to those comments? 20 A. Nothing in regard to procedures. More 21 probably structure, the way it was structured. 22 Q. By structured, you mean editorial changes? 23 A. Right, like results should really be or 24 you have some results in the discussion or in the 25 conclusion, you should move those to results, something 293 1 like that. 2 Q. None of the internal reviewers suggested 3 substantive changes; is that correct? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Have you received the peer review comments 6 for Exhibit 1 from the journal reviewers? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Were those comments produced? 9 A. I'm not -- they might have. I'm not even 10 sure I still have all those. I mean everybody who 11 reviews your paper, you know, once the paper is finally 12 accepted for publication I tend to throw that kind of 13 stuff away. I mean, I just don't save it. But I might 14 have kept those that were reviewed by the journal. I 15 think I did. But if I did you have them. 16 Q. Did you make any changes to Exhibit 1 as a 17 result of those peer review comments? 18 A. Again, it was -- they were favorable 19 reviews and basically it was structure again. 20 Q. Do you know who the reviewers were? 21 A. No, it's a blind. 22 Q. What about Exhibit 8, did that undergo the 23 internal review at the District? 24 A. Exhibit 8 being? 25 Q. It should be right there, it's the paper 294 1 written by John Jensen, you, Marguerite Koch -- 2 A. No, no. 3 Q. -- and another individual. 4 A. That's his paper. 5 Q. You're listed as an author on that paper; 6 isn't that correct? 7 A. Yeah, but he's the primary author. 8 Q. Why didn't you submit Exhibit 8 for an 9 internal review under the District process? 10 A. It's basically his work and all I did was 11 provide my data set. He did all the work, it's -- he's 12 not -- I mean someone outside the District isn't going 13 to -- he's going to go his own -- I'm not going to say 14 you can't publish your work, you have to first give 15 people your paper. It's just not, you know, it's his 16 work. He's just using my data set to do it. 17 Q. Why are you listed as an author? 18 A. I would list somebody if I had gotten all 19 my data for my analysis from them I would list them as 20 an author, that's... 21 Q. Using your definition of expert do you 22 consider yourself as an expert in biology? 23 A. Again, I -- you tell me your definition 24 and I'll tell you if I think that I fit it. 25 Q. I'm asking for your definition of biology, 295 1 the same one that you used. 2 A. If an expert means that I know something 3 that someone else doesn't know about biology, yes, I'm 4 an expert. 5 Q. What about under your definition of expert 6 such as you used when you said you were an expert in 7 the detection of wetlands using GIS image processing 8 remote sensing application? 9 A. I would say that I'm not to the extent 10 that I am in remote sensing. I'm not at the same level 11 in biology. 12 Q. Have you ever published in the peer review 13 journals in biology? 14 A. Nope. 15 Q. What about ecology, are you an expert in 16 ecology? 17 A. Not to the same level as I am in remote 18 sensing. 19 Q. What about botany, are you an expert in 20 botany? 21 A. If botany means identification of plants 22 in the Everglades, yeah, I would consider myself an 23 expert. 24 Q. Have you ever published in peer review 25 journals on botany? 296 1 A. Nope. 2 Q. Zoology, are you an expert in zoology? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever attempted to interpret 5 historical wetland vegetation using image processing 6 and remote sensing applications? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever attempted to interpret 9 historical wetland vegetation using color infrared 10 aerial photography? 11 A. No. 12 Q. With which satellite platforms are you 13 familiar? 14 A. MSS, LandSat, LandSat TM, SPOT, and I have 15 looked at low altitude multispectral, mainly Daedulus 16 and Cassi, Cassi system. Boy, I got, I think AVHRR. 17 I've looked at some weather satellites, that's about 18 it. 19 Q. Which of those satellite platforms have 20 you obtained data from to create vegetative maps? 21 A. I'd say two. 22 Q. Which two? 23 A. LandSat TM and SPOT. 24 (Mr. Green left the room.) 25 297 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Have you ever created a vegetative map 3 using LandSat MSS? 4 A. No. 5 Q. But you're familiar with LandSat MSS? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you ever used LandSat MSS data for 8 any purpose? 9 A. I used it basically when I first started 10 using image processing on the I2S system as preliminary 11 data sets just to learn the system and sort of like my 12 training data set. 13 Q. Did you create any training vegetation 14 maps during that exercise? 15 A. I think I made around -- with making 16 vegetation maps and in urban areas. 17 Q. Focusing on LandSat MSS, SPOT, and LandSat 18 thematic, can you tell me the relative strength and 19 weaknesses of each of those platforms? 20 A. MSS is four bands, SPOT is three band, 21 thematic mapper is seven bands. MSS probably, for 22 trying to derive information for classifying land 23 features, is probably the worst, it's resolution is 79 24 meters per 79 meters. 25 LandSat TM and SPOT are almost, I almost 298 1 consider on the same level. They each have their pros 2 and cons. SPOT only has three band and doesn't cover 3 quite the wave band length that LandSat has. However 4 the resolution is 20 meters for the multispectral, and 5 10 meters for the panchromatic. LandSat, on the other 6 hand, had a -- covers a larger wave band length of 7 information, wave band length of information, but the 8 resolution is 30 meters. And there is no panchromatic 9 data to go along with that. And it also has one other 10 thing, it has a thermal band and some play around with 11 that. 12 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as the next 13 exhibit. 14 (Thereupon, the document was marked 15 Rutchey Exb. No. 13 for Identification.) 16 (Mr. Kobelinski left the room.) 17 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 18 Q. I'm showing you now a document marked as 19 Exhibit 12, which is a memorandum to the files dated 20 November 5, 1990 written by you regarding vegetation 21 mapping using satellite imagery analysis. 22 MR. FITZGERALD: Excuse me, what, was the 23 exhibit number on the resume? 24 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 25 record.) 299 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Do you recall this memorandum? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. For what purpose did you prepare this 5 memorandum? 6 A. I'll going to have to read it. 7 I think it was just a summary of where we 8 were at the District in regards to satellite imagery 9 analysis. 10 (Thereupon, Mr. Green returned.) 11 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 12 Q. Is the method for satellite imagery 13 analysis described in this memo one that you've used? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you still use this methodology? 16 A. Currently I'm moving towards aerial 17 photography. 18 Q. Aerial photography for vegetation mapping 19 rather than satellite imagery? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Why is that? 22 A. It's more accurate in my opinion. 23 Q. What is the basis for that opinion? 24 A. Well, my overall map accuracy was 25 approximately 81 percent, which was excellent for this 300 1 type of work. I mean if you look at the literature you 2 can see that within aerial photography, depending on 3 the scale that you obtain, you can get to the 95 4 percent level. There's two differences. Satellite 5 imagery, it's totally objective, which means that I can 6 give you original digital imagery, you should be able 7 to reproduce exactly what I have given you through my 8 methods and check everything. Whereas, if I create a 9 map from aerial photography, it's totally subjective. 10 So either way you can't win in this deal. It's going 11 to be challenged because you're going to, you know, 12 it's just the way it is. But as a final map product 13 it's been shown, and it's in the literature, that 14 aerial photography is -- you can produce a more 15 accurate end product probably at the 95 percent level. 16 Q. When you create a vegetation map using 17 color infrared aerial photography, is it necessary to 18 conduct ground truthing to get that 95 percent 19 accuracy? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What level of accuracy can you achieve 22 utilizing color infrared aerial photography without 23 ground truthing, do you know? 24 A. No, I wouldn't attempt to do that. 25 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether 301 1 historical aerial photography, color infrared aerial 2 photography, would be superior to satellite imagery to 3 create historical vegetation maps? 4 A. In that respect I would almost have to go 5 to -- with satellite imagery, if you want to go back in 6 time. 7 Q. Why is that? 8 A. Because I have no way to derive the 9 information from aerial photography from the past 10 because I have no ground truth information. But if I 11 have a current scene that's already been done and it's 12 accurate, I can use the information from that the 13 statistical information and go back to past scenes and 14 create vegetation maps or maps depicting representation 15 of the earth's features. 16 Q. Returning to Exhibit 13, on the second 17 page, on the fourth full paragraph, and the last 18 sentence, it says the amount of field verification and 19 resolution of color infrared photography directly 20 correspond to the amount of spectral separability of 21 unique Class 1, can be discerned within an image. 22 Do you know how much spectral separability 23 there is between sawgrass and cattail? 24 A. You're having to -- I don't know how to 25 answer that question. Ask it a different way or -- I 302 1 don't understand the question. 2 Q. Do you agree that sawgrass and cattail are 3 unique classes of vegetation? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Do you agree that classes of vegetation 7 have some degree of spectral separability? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is that why you can discern differences 10 between those vegetation classes on color infrared 11 aerial photography? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. 14 Can the amount or degree of spectral 15 separability between unique classes of vegetation be 16 quantified? 17 A. It might, but it's not my field of 18 expertise and I don't know how to do it. Not -- not 19 putting a percentage number on it or .... 20 Q. Have you ever attempted to differentiate 21 between sawgrass and cattail by using color infrared 22 aerial photography? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Have you been successful in 25 differentiating between sawgrass and cattail using 303 1 color infrared aerial photography? 2 A. Yes, I believe I have. It's pretty -- 3 it's really obvious if you have good photography. 4 Q. Why is it obvious? 5 A. It's totally two different signatures. I 6 mean, it's clear as day when you're looking at it. 7 Q. In what way are they different signatures 8 on color infrared photography between sawgrass and 9 cattail? 10 A. To me it's almost like this one particular 11 data set, it's -- it's like looking at black and white. 12 I mean it's -- it's... 13 Q. Can you describe what the sawgrass 14 signature looks like on color infrared photography? 15 A. No, it's just a different -- it's just 16 different from other things that -- other vegetation 17 types, different color. 18 Q. Can you tell me a color it appears? 19 A. Well, it's going depend on the emulsion 20 process of the photography that you're obtaining it 21 from. 22 Q. When you look at color infrared 23 photography in an attempt to differentiate between 24 sawgrass and cattail, do the signatures for these two 25 vegetative communities appear as two distinct colors or 304 1 are they shades of the same color? 2 A. I would say they are shades of the same 3 color. 4 Q. Is the spectral separability of sawgrass 5 and cattail through color infrared aerial photography 6 better during certain periods of year than others? 7 A. I think so. 8 Q. During what period is spectral 9 separability between sawgrass and cattail the best on 10 color infrared aerial photography? 11 A. It's going to depend -- I answered this 12 yesterday, but I'll answer it again. 13 It's going to depend on what the previous 14 conditions of the winter was, if there hasn't been any 15 real hard freeze. I think as early as mid to late 16 March to as late as September, November, is the best 17 time to acquire, with the optimum being probably spring 18 to summer. 19 Q. Have you ever conducted a study to 20 determine that the spring and summer are the optimum 21 period of the year to obtain the best spectral 22 separability between sawgrass and cattail on color 23 infrared aerial photography? 24 A. No, it's just my personal observance and 25 knowing that in the winter things tend to brown out and 305 1 look all the same or they just die out altogether. 2 Q. Have you ever attempted to create a 3 vegetative map from color infrared aerial photography 4 in which you differentiated between sawgrass and 5 cattail when the photography was taken in the winter 6 months? 7 A. No. I don't recall ever -- we don't 8 hardly ever obtain photography during the winter 9 months. 10 Q. Have you ever attempted to create a 11 vegetative map of sawgrass and cattail using color 12 infrared aerial photography that was taken in the fall? 13 A. No, but I mean both -- the two maps I've 14 produced were produced in April and August. 15 Q. Are those the two maps that we've 16 discussed in deposition that you created from SPOT 17 imagery? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How was color infrared photography 20 utilized in creation of those maps? 21 A. It was just used as a -- as an aid 22 basically. 23 Q. In what way was it used as an aid? 24 A. This was already asked and answered, but 25 in this particular map that's what I used it for, the 306 1 color infrared data set as my ground truthing 2 mechanism. I also had one available for this effort. 3 It didn't come into play as much as this effort, but we 4 did see things like the periphyton problem in the 5 southern region within there with aerial photography. 6 Q. That's not going to be real clear on the 7 record. The first map you referenced was to Exhibit 8 10; is that correct? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And the second map you were referring to 11 was the one that appears in Exhibit 1; is that correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. If you used color infrared aerial 14 photography in the creation of the map that is included 15 in Exhibit 1, why were you not able to achieve the 95 16 percent accuracy that you've testified you can achieve 17 with color infrared aerial photography? 18 A. Because I didn't -- because this was 19 totally a digitally driven process, and I just used the 20 aerial photography as a side aid, I didn't use it to 21 drive the process. 22 Q. At the time you created the map that's 23 included in Exhibit 1, did you know that aerial 24 photography interpretation would result in a more 25 accurate map than the use of satellite imagery? 307 1 A. I would say, yes, I did know. 2 Q. Why did you use the satellite imagery then 3 to create the map? 4 A. Because photointerpretation takes a long 5 time and that's the whole beauty of remote sensing, 6 it's -- it's much faster, but I believe it's not as 7 accurate. 8 Q. How much longer would it have taken to 9 create the map in Exhibit 1 if you used color infrared 10 aerial photography rather than satellite imagery? 11 A. I'd be guessing. Till I do it I won't 12 know that answer. 13 Q. Can you give us an approximation? 14 A. I'd rather not. It would be longer. 15 Q. Can you give me a range of additional 16 time? In other words, can you say whether it would 17 take up to a year longer or two to three years longer 18 or six months longer? 19 A. I'd really -- I'd be guessing. Yeah, 20 okay, it would be maybe one to three years longer. 21 It's a guess. And I'd have to sit down, and it all 22 depends on the quality of the photography you have, the 23 scale of photography, there's a number of variables in 24 here so I don't have all variables, so it would be a 25 guess. 308 1 Q. Would there be any way to shorten the time 2 period that it would take to create a vegetative map 3 using color infrared aerial photography? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What would that be? 6 A. Have a bunch of people working on it, a 7 whole shop. And there's people in shops that do that. 8 Q. Are there independent contractors that do 9 that kind of work? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know how much it would cost to have 12 an independent contractor create a vegetative map of 13 WCA-2A using color infrared aerial photography? 14 A. I did get one quote for the conservation 15 areas from Geonex Corporation, which is probably the 16 biggest commercial map makers in different land 17 features in the world and they -- we gave them a 18 minimum mapping unit of basically an acre and they 19 basically said it would probably cost millions. 20 Q. Millions to do what? 21 A. Map the vegetation at that minimum mapping 22 unit of all the conservation areas. They didn't give 23 me the exact million dollar figure, but we got the idea 24 that it would be expensive. 25 Q. On the third page of Exhibit 13, in the 309 1 paragraph with a subtitle Method 3, the last sentence 2 it indicates there is still a problem of actually 3 acquiring a satellite image and color infrared 4 photography within an acceptable time frame. What is 5 an acceptable time frame? 6 A. Well, a lot of people would disagree with 7 what that actual time frame is, but I don't like to be 8 any further than six months to a year. 9 (Thereupon, Mr. Green left.) 10 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 11 Q. Why? 12 A. Things change. I'd rather have them both 13 on the same exact day, that's the optimum. 14 Q. Would that also be optimal to ground truth 15 satellite imagery, to be in the field on the same day 16 that the satellite imagery was taken? 17 A. Yes, but that's an almost impossible task. 18 Q. On the next page of Exhibit 13, which is 19 the fourth page, in the paragraph numbered 1, it states 20 that preliminary work has been started using a LandSat 21 scene of March 18, 1988 for vegetation mapping of the 22 Conservation Areas. Was that map ever created? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where is that map? 25 A. We found out that there was a problem in 310 1 the satellite image for that particular -- is that the 2 one -- wait, let me... I believe that satellite 3 imagery we found was corrupt and we sent it back and we 4 got refunded our money. There was a problem with the 5 line running down the middle of it and basically it 6 didn't -- it was unusable. 7 Q. Is that a reference to LandSat thematic 8 mapper in that paragraph? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The last sentence in that paragraph states 11 my conclusion is either SPOT or LandSat satellite data 12 will be acceptable for vegetation mapping with 13 preference going to LandSat because it is easier to 14 work with in an image analysis system. Is that still 15 your preference? 16 A. I would say no. I would say that since 17 then I've changed my opinion. 18 Q. What is your preference now? 19 A. Aerial photography. 20 Q. For the reasons we've already discussed? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Between SPOT and LandSat Thematic Mapper, 23 what would be your reference? 24 A. SPOT. 25 Q. Why is that? 311 1 A. It has better resolution. 2 Q. Any other reason? 3 A. That's the primary one. 4 Q. Is that the most important characteristic 5 of satellite imagery in trying to accurately create a 6 vegetation map? 7 A. No, I think there's two things. I think 8 resolution, and the amount of bands and the amount of 9 wave length, spectrum that's covered, optimumly 10 (phonetic) I'd like to have, you know, two meter data 11 with about 50 bands of information covering everywhere 12 from visible to, you know, infrared and that would be 13 optimum, but we're not there yet. We're getting there, 14 future satellites. 15 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 16 record and Mr. Kobelinski returned.) 17 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 18 Q. Which of those two satellites, SPOT and 19 LandSat Thematic Mapper has more bands in the spectral 20 range covered? 21 A. That's been asked and answered, but SPOT 22 has three, LandSat has seven, and one of those being a 23 thermal band. 24 Q. And you just testified that you'd prefer 25 to have better resolution and maximum coverage of the 312 1 spectral range; is that correct? 2 A. Yeah, that's what I would. It's not 3 available. 4 Q. But you can't have both with the available 5 satellites; is that correct? 6 A. Yes, I would say that's correct. 7 Q. So you have to chose between better 8 resolution or better coverage of the spectral range; is 9 that correct? 10 A. Um-hum. 11 Q. At this time you chose better resolution; 12 is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Why? 15 A. Because the Everglades is a highly complex 16 system, very heterogenous, and I think that resolution 17 benefits you, having it available. This is not just my 18 conclusion. This is many people's work, people who 19 published and reading in the literature. But this 20 argument is ongoing, which is better, which is better, 21 LandSat or SPOT. And I think it depends on the area 22 that you're working in. I think this work that I did 23 shows for SPOT what you can, the best that you can 24 obtain. Maybe someone should try LandSat now and see 25 if they can do better. 313 1 Q. Have you conducted a study to determine 2 whether LandSat Thematic Mapper or SPOT is better for 3 creating a vegetative map in the Everglades? 4 A. No, but the problem is that there's hardly 5 has been any LandSat scenes that have not been cloudy 6 for the Everglades, so the driving force for this 7 Exhibit 1 was basically availability of a scene with no 8 clouds. 9 (Thereupon, Mr. Green returned.) 10 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 11 Q. Other than the corrupt LandSat scene for 12 March 18, 1988, have you ever attempted to create a 13 vegetative map of the Everglades using LandSat Thematic 14 Mapper? 15 A. I think that was my only attempt with that 16 scene. In fact -- as a matter of fact -- well, I -- 17 there's another one since then, but that was the last 18 scene that was acquired up till about 1993, '92. 19 Q. Given the high complexity and 20 heterogeneity of Everglades vegetation, is it your 21 opinion that the 79 by 79 meter pixel of the LandSat 22 MSS is sufficient to differentiate between the mixed 23 vegetation in that area? 24 A. Can you -- 25 Q. Sure. 314 1 You're familiar with the LandSat MSS 2 resolution; is that correct? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. 79 by 79 meters? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. You've testified you prefer SPOT because 7 it has better -- 8 A. Resolution. 9 Q. -- because of the 20 by 20 resolution that 10 it affords over the LandSat Thematic Mapper; isn't that 11 correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And you feel that resolution is more 14 important than spectral coverage; is that correct? 15 A. In my opinion, yes. Like I said, there's 16 other people who disagree and it really depends on what 17 area you're working in and what you're trying to 18 derive. 19 Q. Given the complexity of the vegetation in 20 the Everglades and the heterogeneity of that 21 vegetation, do you believe the 79 by 79 meter pixel 22 size for the LandSat MSS is sufficient to differentiate 23 between the vegetation in the Everglades area? 24 A. I've never tried it, so I -- you know, it 25 would be a nice test to acquire it and try it, see what 315 1 happens. 2 Q. Do you know whether anyone has obtained a 3 LandSat MSS scene and attempted to create a current 4 vegetation map within the Everglades area? 5 A. I'm not aware of it. The last work that I 6 know of, I believe it was Lance Gunderson did some work 7 in the Everglades National Park. I believe it was MSS 8 data. That was a while back. 9 Q. Do you know when that was? 10 A. I'll tell you in a minute. 11 No, it was LandSat TM. 12 Q. Then you're aware of no mapping of current 13 vegetation in the Everglades area using LandSat MSS; is 14 that correct? 15 A. Current, no. 16 Q. By current, I mean current as of the time 17 it was made? 18 A. Oh, well, just the work that Dr. Jensen 19 has just done. 20 Q. He used LandSat MSS to create historical 21 vegetation maps, didn't he? 22 A. Right, right. 23 Q. I'm asking whether you're aware of anyone 24 who attempted to create a current vegetation map of 25 Everglades vegetation using LandSat MSS? 316 1 A. No. 2 MS. RAEPPLE: It's a little bit after 12, 3 how about a lunch break at this point. 4 (Thereupon, a luncheon recess was taken 5 from 12:05 - 1:20 p.m..) 6 (Thereupon, the document was marked 7 Rutchey Exb. No. 14 for Identification.). 8 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 9 Q. I'm showing you a document now that's been 10 marked as Exhibit 14 to this deposition. It's a memo 11 dated March 30, 1990 from Mike Maceina to a 12 distribution list. Do you remember receiving this 13 memo? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you have any involvement with Michael 16 Maceina for the preparation of this memo? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What was your involvement? 19 A. I basically consolidated two data sets for 20 the analysis. 21 Q. Which two data sets were they? 22 A. It contained, to the best of my 23 recollection, water quality phosphorus data, location 24 of sites where data was collected over time, distance 25 from the S-10 structures. That's all I remember that 317 1 was in there. 2 Q. Where did you get the data sets that you 3 consolidated for him? 4 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry, can I have a 5 data on the memo? 6 MR. CESARANO: March 30, 1990. 7 THE WITNESS: I calculated the location of 8 the sites and their distance from the S-10's and 9 the water quality data came from the District 10 database at that time. That contained water 11 quality information, at that time I think it was 12 called DB Hydro. 13 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 14 Q. Do you have still have copies of the data 15 that you provided to Michael Maceina? 16 A. Yeah, you got a copy of it. 17 Q. How could I recognize it? 18 A. It's a big folder. It's about that big 19 and it has all the phosphorus data in there. It's 20 called phosphorus. 21 Q. I'll try to identify that on a break. 22 Was that data the best available at the 23 time it was given to Michael Maceina? 24 A. I'm not in a position to know. 25 Q. Do you know whether there's any QAQC of 318 1 data before it goes into the DB Hydro database? 2 A. I have very little to do with water 3 quality data. I -- basically I was asked to put this 4 together because I knew how to at least access it and I 5 could figure out, you know, the site locations and the 6 distance from the S-10 structures. 7 Q. Who asked you to put the data together for 8 him? 9 A. I believe it was Walt Dineen. 10 (Thereupon, Mr. Green left.) 11 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 12 Q. Have you been requested to put together 13 similar data subsequent to that time? 14 A. I -- yeah, I think at one time I had to 15 put something together for one of the board members. 16 That's in the folder also. I don't even recall what 17 that was, it was something to do with P data. 18 Q. Do you know whether the analysis reflected 19 in that memorandum has been updated? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Is the 1991 vegetative map the most 22 current vegetative map of the WCA-2A that's available 23 to your knowledge? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is there a more current map being created 319 1 at this time? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Is there a more current map in preliminary 4 form to your knowledge? 5 A. No. 6 Q. With regard to Exhibit 8 and the mapping 7 that is reflected in that paper, do you know whether 8 similar mapping had been done for Loxahatchee National 9 Wildlife Refuge or the Everglades National Park? 10 A. I don't know if it is. 11 Q. Who would know? 12 A. I have no idea. 13 Q. How did John Jensen become involved in the 14 mapping of vegetation in WCA-2A? 15 A. I think he was hired as an expert by our 16 attorneys. 17 Q. Did anyone ever ask you if you would be 18 able to create historical vegetation maps for WCA-2A? 19 A. Yeah, to this day I'm asked to go back in 20 time and create maps. I just say sure, free up some of 21 my time and I'll do my best. Basically I'm all over 22 the map on projects and, yeah, I've been asked. But 23 that's basically no time. 24 MR. KOBELINSKI: All over the map, we 25 liked that. 320 1 MR. FITZGERALD: We liked that geographic 2 comment. 3 MR. DOWNING: It's remotely funny. 4 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 5 Q. Was your unavailability to create 6 historical vegetation map the reason John Jensen was 7 retained to create those maps? 8 A. Well, I'm sure if it had already been down 9 by me or somebody else we wouldn't have went to John 10 Jensen, but it just never happened. 11 Q. How did you become involved with John 12 Jensen? 13 A. My initial involvement with him was that 14 he's on -- we have an expert assistance pool that's a 15 listing of people who we consider experts in their -- 16 in their field. It's compiled by Garth Redfield's 17 group. That's basically what his division does. 18 And they wanted someone to come in 19 independently and review our remote sensing activities 20 at the District. Also they wanted to have him review 21 John Richardson's work for the Lake Okeechobee 22 vegetation map project using SPOT satellite data. And 23 Dr. Jensen came down and sat with me for probably a 24 day. We took him out in the field one day, and we went 25 up to the University of Florida to see John Richardson 321 1 and go through his stuff for about a day. And he 2 compiled a report and sent it back and it was reviewed 3 by a number of people and that was my initial 4 involvement. Then I found out he was working on this 5 paper and he requested data and I submitted it to him. 6 Q. When did you first become involved with 7 John Jensen, when you spent that day with him? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. When was that? 10 A. It's here in the memo somewhere. I don't 11 remember the exact date. There's actually a memo 12 written about it and what happened basically. 13 Q. When you spent that day with him what did 14 you do? 15 A. We went over all aspects of how we're 16 looking at vegetation using digital remotely sensed 17 data, and we even got into some photography. And he 18 just went through everything, you know, the steps that 19 we were using and he wrote a synopsis and made 20 recommendations based on what we told him. 21 Q. Was Jensen involved in the development of 22 the methodology that you used to create the map that's 23 reflected in Exhibit 1? 24 A. I think the only part that he actually 25 influenced was the cluster busting techniques that we 322 1 used to break out the periphyton and tree islands. 2 That were pretty much on his suggestion, we decided 3 that was the best way to attack that particular 4 problem. 5 Q. Since becoming involved with John Jensen 6 have you changed any of your methodology for 7 interpreting remotely sensed data? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Other than the one day that you spent with 10 John Jensen, how many times have you met with him? 11 A. Oh, maybe one other day he was down there. 12 Q. When was that? 13 A. Again, I can't recall the exact -- the 14 exact day. I'm not even sure that day what he was 15 actually here for. He came by and saw me and he knew 16 other people in the District too, Brent Moll in the 17 Lower District Planning Department. 18 Q. Did you ever take John Jensen out into the 19 field in the Everglades? 20 A. I personally didn't. We flew a helicopter 21 from the District up to the University of Florida and I 22 guess he did see some Everglades, I don't know -- we 23 made the flight going from the District to the 24 University of Florida and we flew over the northern end 25 of Water Conservation Area 1, the EAA and Lake 323 1 Okeechobee and up the Kissimmee River. 2 (Thereupon, Mr. Kobelinski left and Mr. 3 Green returned.) 4 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 5 Q. Was the purpose of that helicopter flight 6 to view Everglades type vegetation? 7 A. I think that particular flight was more to 8 look at the Lake Okeechobee littoral zone that 9 particular flight. 10 Q. Have you been with John Jensen out into 11 the field in the Everglades subsequent to that date? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know whether he has spent any other 14 time in the Everglades? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. The subsequent day that you spent with 17 John Jensen, what was the purpose of that visit? 18 A. Which now? Which day? 19 Q. The second day that you spent with him. 20 A. Oh, that was basically to -- he met with 21 myself and Marguerite Koch and we provided him what 22 data we had for him that -- to do Exhibit 8. 23 Q. How was it determined what data you would 24 give John Jensen for the development of Exhibit 8? 25 A. It was his decision, so you'd have to ask 324 1 him. 2 Q. Did he review all of the data that the 3 District had available? 4 A. You're going to have to ask John Jensen. 5 Q. What data did you show John Jensen? 6 A. He already knew what he wanted at that 7 point. He was in contact with Brent Moll who was his 8 graduate student before he got involved, and so he had 9 a pretty good handle on what we already had, so he must 10 have got it from Brent Moll. 11 Q. So you had no involvement in deciding what 12 data to give John Jensen for the analysis reflected in 13 Exhibit 8; is that correct? 14 A. Not -- no. He chose what he wanted and 15 asked me. I mean he knew about my first work so he 16 knew exactly what he wanted. 17 Q. Did he ever indicate to you his assessment 18 of the quality of work reflected in Exhibit 1? 19 A. He thought it was a solid piece of work. 20 Very few people have the luxury of spending this kind 21 of money to come up with a map this accurate with all 22 the map accuracy assessment that we included. Most 23 people can't afford it. 24 Q. Did he ever suggest that you modify the 25 analysis in any way other than the cluster busting? 325 1 A. Not to my recollection, no. It was a 2 pretty favorable synopsis or write-up that he did of 3 our methods that we were using at the District. 4 Q. Other than the two days that you have 5 spent with John Jensen, have you had any other 6 communications with him? 7 A. Yeah, I've talked to him on the phone. 8 Q. How frequently have you spoken with him on 9 the telephone? 10 A. It's very occasionally. He would call me, 11 say the paper got accepted in PERS, let me know. I 12 think he sent me a copy of the letter that it got 13 accepted. I think one time he called me -- this was a 14 while back -- about, you know, this was the first time, 15 I guess, when we getting back in the lawsuit, he was 16 just concerned what it was about. I didn't know a 17 whole lot so I didn't have a lot to tell him. It's 18 just general -- that's about it, that's all I can 19 remember. 20 Q. Has he ever requested additional data to 21 the original set that he obtained from you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Precisely what data did you provide to 24 John Jensen? 25 A. The District provided all the satellite 326 1 imagery, I provided the 1991 satellite imagery and the 2 final classified map and 129 ground truth sites along 3 with the 241 ground truth map accuracy assessment 4 sites. 5 Q. When you say you provided him the 129 6 sites and 241 sites, what data related to those sites 7 did you provide to him? 8 A. All he wanted was an X Y location and what 9 we saw there. 10 Q. In what form did you provide him that 11 data? 12 A. It was already -- it's in the stack right 13 here. 14 Q. Can you identify for me in what form you 15 provided him that data? 16 A. Well, you just wanted to know form, it 17 was, you know, basically X Y and site location and 18 species. 19 Q. In which exhibit to this deposition is the 20 data that you gave John Jensen regarding the 129 sites 21 and 241 sites, reflected in which exhibit? 22 A. Exhibit 1 -- let me make sure. I believe 23 it's 1202232 to 1202236. That was one. I'm getting 24 these mixed up. Well, there's more if you want me to 25 sit here and go through. It's part of the record of 327 1 what was discussed yesterday. 2 Q. I'd like to know what the pages are for 3 other sites. 4 A. Okay. It may take a while. Okay. 5 And the other one is 1202882 to 1202884. 6 (Thereupon, Mr. Soukup left.) 7 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 8 Q. That last set of pages, what Exhibit do 9 they appear in? 10 A. Exhibit No. 2. 11 Q. And the first set of pages, what Exhibit 12 do they appear in? 13 A. Exhibit 4. 14 Q. Thank you. 15 Did you send that data to John Jensen in 16 hard copy as they exist in this record? 17 A. I sent it as hard copy and as digital. 18 Q. When you said the District sent John 19 Jensen all the satellite imagery, what did you mean by 20 that? 21 A. Well, I don't recall if I had originally 22 sent him the original satellite imagery or whether 23 Brent Moll actually sent it to him. It was either me 24 or him at that point. I don't remember. 25 Q. Did you send him all of the satellite 328 1 imagery that the District has or just the satellite 2 imagery that's reflected in Exhibit 8? 3 A. Just the five dates that are in Exhibit 8. 4 (Thereupon, Mr. Kobelinski returned.) 5 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 6 Q. That's the two SPOT scenes and three 7 LandSat MSS images? 8 A. I have to look at it again, I'm not sure 9 if that's exactly what it was. 10 Yeah, there's two MSS and two SPOT -- I 11 mean three MSS and two SPOT, I'm sorry. 12 Q. What about aerial photography, did you 13 provide him any color infrared aerial photography? 14 A. Nope. 15 Q. Do you know where Jensen obtained the 16 color infrared photography that's reflected in Exhibit 17 8? 18 A. I wasn't aware that there was. 19 Q. I'm referring to the first set of images 20 that appear after the generalized map of South Florida 21 at the back of the map. 22 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 23 record.) 24 THE WITNESS: That's satellite data. It's 25 just a color infrared composite of satellite 329 1 data. 2 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 3 Q. And you sent this to Jensen; is that 4 correct? 5 A. He didn't even get that clean, he got the 6 raw -- raw stuff. This is raw, but it's rectified. 7 Q. Do you know who rectified it? 8 A. I think he used, probably, my base map as 9 the -- in the rectification. 10 Q. Is that all the data you sent Jensen? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Have you read Exhibit 8? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you read and edit it before it was 15 submitted for consideration for publication? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you read it before it was submitted 18 for publication? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you suggest any changes to it? 21 A. Not much. I verbally talked to him on the 22 phone and they were more editorial structure, nothing 23 in the way he was doing it. 24 Q. Do you understand the analysis that Jensen 25 did as reflected in Exhibit 8? 330 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Have you ever attempted to do this type of 3 analysis? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What normalization targets did Jensen use 6 for Exhibit 8? 7 A. You're going to have to ask John Jensen. 8 Q. Did you have any involvement in the choice 9 of those normalization targets? 10 A. Nothing, nope. 11 Q. Did you discuss the normalization targets 12 with him when you talked to him about the paper after 13 you read it? 14 A. Nope. 15 Q. Did you provide him any data related to 16 normalization targets? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know how many normalization targets 19 were used? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You did not provide Jensen with the field 22 inspection sheets for the 129 and 241 sites that you 23 had visited? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Have you reviewed the historical 331 1 vegetation maps that are included in Exhibit 8? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Have you made any determination as to 4 their accuracy in reflecting vegetative communities in 5 the time periods indicated? 6 A. No. 7 (Thereupon, Mr. Soukup returned.) 8 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 9 Q. Why have you not made any determination of 10 accuracy? 11 A. Because I've been working on other 12 projects and, you know, I'm just having -- I don't know 13 if I ever will. I've been given other priorities to 14 work on. 15 Q. Do you know whether anyone has reviewed 16 the vegetative maps reflected in Exhibit 8 to determine 17 whether they are accurate reflections of the vegetation 18 at the time shown? 19 A. Not that I'm aware of. A number of people 20 have seen that map now, it's a matter of -- it's in our 21 manuscript listing. Anybody can ask for and request 22 it, so I don't know what everybody is doing with it. 23 Q. Based on the extensive amount of time that 24 you spent in WCA-2A in the early '80's -- early and mid 25 '80's, would you be in a position to evaluate the 332 1 accuracy of the January 17, 1982 and April 4, 1987 2 vegetative maps reflected in Exhibit 8? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Why not? 5 A. I didn't collect ground truth information 6 at that period of time. 7 Q. Is the collection of ground truth 8 information the only way to assess the accuracy of an 9 historical vegetation map? 10 A. I believe so. 11 Q. Have you made any attempt to compare the 12 map reflected in Exhibit 10 to any of the historical 13 maps created by John Jensen? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know if anyone else has? 16 A. Not to my knowledge. 17 Q. Have you ever provided Exhibit 10 to John 18 Jensen? 19 A. He saw it in -- he realized that it was 20 just, at that time a, you know, a vegetation map that I 21 had done of that particular satellite imagery. I think 22 we concluded that it wasn't a publishable piece of work 23 just because we didn't go through the rigors that we 24 went with Exhibit 1. 25 Q. You indicated that a lot of people have 333 1 seen the maps reflected in Exhibit 8. Have any of 2 those people indicated to you that they agree with the 3 historical representation of vegetation in that 4 document? 5 A. I think Steve Davis is one that I can 6 remember. 7 Q. Has anyone who reviewed Exhibit 8 8 indicated to you that they disagreed with the 9 historical representation of vegetation in that 10 document? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When did Steve Davis indicate to you that 13 he agrees with the historical representation of 14 vegetation in WCA-2A in Exhibit 8? 15 A. I guess it was maybe six months ago or 16 seven months ago. 17 Q. Do you intend to use Jensen's method to 18 create historical maps for any other areas in the 19 Everglades? 20 A. I have no plans to do that right now, no. 21 Q. Do you know whether anyone else has such 22 plans? 23 A. Not that I know of. 24 Q. Do you know whether there are any plans to 25 update the analysis in Jensen's paper which is 334 1 reflected in Exhibit 8? 2 A. I'm not aware of it if it's happening. 3 Q. If you were asked to create an updated 4 vegetation map for WCA-2A for the '94 time frame, how 5 would you go about creating that map? 6 A. It's going to depend on a lot of variables 7 and in the request. 8 Q. Like what? 9 A. What's the minimum mapping unit, how fast 10 do you want it. It's just a process that has to be 11 digitally driven. That's about it that I could think 12 of. 13 Q. If you could use any process you wanted, 14 what would you use? 15 A. Right now I would tell you aerial 16 photography. 17 Q. That's because of the superior quality of 18 such maps in your judgment? 19 A. Right. After I complete a whole one then 20 I might change my mind, depending on how long it takes 21 and how much money it costs and... 22 Q. To your knowledge, has Jensen done any 23 work related to the Everglades other than that 24 reflected in Exhibit 8? 25 A. Yes, he has. 335 1 Q. What? 2 A. He did some mangrove work over in Marco 3 Island. He's also a world renowned expert in wetland 4 delineation using remotely sensed data. He's probably 5 the No. 1 guy, in my opinion, he's got over 150 6 publications -- 7 Q. Do you know whether he did any wetland 8 mapping in the Everglades prior to the work reflected 9 in Exhibit 8? 10 A. Not that I'm aware, but then again, I 11 didn't read every one of those papers either. 12 Q. With regard to the work that you did which 13 is reflected in Exhibit 1, how did you establish the 14 exact location of the base station? 15 A. It was surveyed with conventional GPS 16 survey grade equipment. 17 Q. What were coordinates of the bay station? 18 A. I don't know off the top of my head. 19 Q. Are they reflected in any of the files 20 that you've produced? 21 A. They might be. I'm not sure. It's 22 available, it's out in the computer. 23 Q. Will it be in the digitized files that we 24 receive? 25 A. I'm not sure. Out of all of those files 336 1 I'm not sure if it's reflected there somewhere. 2 Q. Who could I obtain the coordinates of the 3 base station from? 4 A. Me. 5 Q. It's reflected somewhere in your files? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What base station GPS unit did you use? 8 A. It's a Trimble -- this was asked and 9 answered yesterday, but it was a Trimble PathFinder 10 community base station. 11 Q. How many channels does it have? 12 A. It had -- it was capable of tracking up to 13 eight satellites. Now it's capable of tracking -- it's 14 been upgraded and is currently is capable of tracking 15 up to 12 satellites. 16 Q. What amount of memory does that base 17 station unit have? 18 A. It doesn't -- the actual base station 19 doesn't have any memory so to speak, it's not a 20 computer. 21 Q. How is the data that the base station 22 collects reflected in output? 23 A. It -- there's a box and it's hooked to an 24 antenna, the antenna receives the signals from the 25 satellite, it goes to the box, the box goes to the 337 1 computer and the computer logs the data. 2 Q. How much memory is in the computer that 3 the base station unit is connected to? 4 A. I'm not sure exactly off the top of my 5 head, I'd say about 60 mg. 6 Q. Do you know the level of accuracy of the 7 base station unit? 8 A. The survey is accurate to less than a 9 centimeter. 10 Q. You testified yesterday, I believe, that 11 in locating your ground truth sites you were able to 12 come within three to seven meters of accuracy; is that 13 correct? 14 A. No. 15 Q. No. What were you able to locate within 16 three to seven meters of accuracy? 17 A. That's not what I said yesterday. What I 18 said is -- this has been asked and answered -- I go to 19 a site, navigate it based on the way point. The 20 military's been jamming the signals since the Gulf 21 crisis, it could be off up to a 100 meters, depending 22 on how they're scrambling the satellites. I take that 23 recovery unit data back to the District and correct it 24 differentially, correct it based on the community base 25 station logging the satellite information, and I 338 1 checked that by going to known survey markers out in 2 the field and collecting data there and bring it back 3 in. And my range during Exhibit 1's project life was 4 an accuracy of three to seven meters. 5 Q. I'm still not understanding. What was 6 accurate within three to seven meters? 7 A. My position on the ground. 8 Q. Let me make sure that I understand. 9 After you adjust the GPS coordinates back 10 at the District based on the information that you 11 obtain from the base station unit, the adjusted 12 coordinates are accurate within three to seven meters; 13 is that correct? 14 A. Differentially corrected data from the 15 field averaged together is accurate to three to seven 16 meters. Trimble claims it's even more, but my actual 17 field experience has shown me that it's three to seven. 18 Q. How do you know that it's accurate within 19 three to seven meters? 20 A. Because I went to known benchmarks and sat 21 on it with the unit. I know what the benchmark is, and 22 it has been surveyed with conventional survey grade 23 equipment and... 24 Q. When you went to a benchmark how long did 25 you sit on that benchmark? 339 1 A. Two to three minutes. 2 I've tried various things, just taking 3 single readings, averaging improves it somewhat. By 4 sitting on it longer you collect more data, so there's 5 a little scatter around three to seven meters, you get 6 on one point, but it improves it somewhat, not a whole 7 lot. 8 Q. How many readings do you get in two to 9 three minutes? 10 A. It's going to depend on your log interval 11 that you set on the GPS unit. You log it every 15 12 seconds, 10 or 12, you know, you can do it every second 13 if you want to. 14 Q. What log interval were you using during 15 the ground truthing for the work reflected in Exhibit 16 1? 17 A. This was asked and answered yesterday. 18 Basically in the helicopter, if I remember correctly, 19 it was either five or 10 seconds over a period of no 20 more than probably 30 seconds. You can't make 21 helicopter hover it one spot for more than 30 seconds 22 or their engines start overheating, you feel like 23 crashing. I don't feel like crashing. 24 When I'm in an air boat I usually do it 25 over a period of two to three minutes at 15 second 340 1 intervals. 2 Q. How many channels were on the GPS recovery 3 unit that you were utilizing in your field work? 4 A. It's a three channel unit. 5 Q. What amount of memory does the recovery 6 unit have? 7 A. I think it's 64 K. 8 Q. Do you know the accuracy of that unit? 9 A. It's been asked and answered. 10 Basically, if you take it out in the field 11 it can be off as much as a hundred meters, but if you 12 take the data back and differentially correct it. In 13 my analysis of using known benchmarks you can 14 differentially correct it to three to seven meters. 15 Q. When you were sitting on the benchmark, 16 what was the log interval that you were using? 17 A. That's been asked and answered. 18 THE WITNESS: Do I have to? I mean she 19 just asked. 20 MR. CESARANO: She did two minutes ago. 21 Every 15 seconds, right? 22 THE WITNESS: It's been asked and 23 answered. 24 MR. CESARANO: You know, really. 25 MS. RAEPPLE: Well, he's said that when he 341 1 was in a helicopter, his log interval was for 2 five -- every five to ten seconds for 30 3 seconds. When he's in an air boat it was every 4 15 seconds over a over two to three minute 5 period. But benchmarks, he sat on benchmarks. 6 I don't know, that -- that doesn't sound to me 7 like he was in a helicopter or air boat. 8 THE WITNESS: I also said that I tried 9 various time sequences, such as every second, 10 every five seconds, a number of different ways. 11 I also said that I took an average or I looked 12 at a single point. I said that there wasn't 13 much difference between the two and it improved 14 your accuracy somewhat. 15 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 16 Q. So you didn't use a uniform log interval 17 for the benchmarks; is that correct? 18 A. I think at the end basically I stuck with, 19 basically, taking data over two minutes and every 15 20 seconds, two to three minutes. 21 Q. Thank you. 22 Were all of the sites visited in the field 23 for the work reflected in Exhibit 1 located using GPS? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you believe you've identified each of 342 1 those locations within three to seven meters; isn't 2 that correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. During your field work were you in contact 5 with the base station? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Then am I correct in understanding that 8 you did not process the data for each site while you 9 were on-site, you waited until you returned to the 10 District? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. How many hours did you stay in the field 13 each day that you were doing the field work for Exhibit 14 1? 15 A. That could vary. If it rained I went back 16 to the truck and I went home. If it was a nice day I 17 stayed out all day. 18 Q. Are there any notes that would indicate 19 the days you were out and it started to rain, you came 20 back quickly and days you stayed out for a long time? 21 A. Basically every day that I went out 22 there's a log of the time along with the data of all 23 the 241 sites and the 129 sites. It shows you what 24 actual time I logged that data and the date. 25 Q. Okay. 343 1 You indicated that the base station had a 2 capacity of -- for tracking eight satellites. Do you 3 know how many satellites it was tracking when you were 4 doing this field work? 5 A. We didn't -- at that time we didn't have a 6 full ephemeris window. The system wasn't fully 7 deployed at the time. But it has to track up to fur 8 satellites and we -- now this was -- you have -- you 9 check an almanac, it tells your window of opportunity 10 during those periods that you go out in the field when 11 you have at least four satellites that you have good 12 geometry and you can get accurate 3-D information. 13 Q. How many satellites was the base station 14 tracking on the days that you did your field work, do 15 you know? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Does that data exist anywhere? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where? 20 A. It's in the digital files. 21 Q. Do you recall whether at least four 22 satellites were being tracked on days you did your 23 field work? 24 A. Well, they weren't -- if we weren't we 25 didn't use the data. It had to be. That was a 344 1 requirement that we made that of the system, always 2 check to ensure that at least four satellites were 3 being tracked, you had to have four. 4 Q. In the base station how many satellite 5 were being tracked by your recovery unit, do you know? 6 A. It has to be four, and it has to be the 7 same four. 8 MR. KOBELINSKI: May I ask a quick 9 question? 10 MS. RAEPPLE: (Indicating.) 11 MR. KOBELINSKI: You said something that 12 confused me. Given what you told me yesterday 13 about the recovery unit, you have -- you said it 14 had no memory, but I thought you said it 15 automatically was recording that. Maybe I just 16 misunderstood that 17 THE WITNESS: No, the community base 18 station doesn't have any memory. 19 MR. KOBELINSKI: I probably wasn't -- the 20 recovery unit itself was recording, it had 21 memory that you then downloaded? 22 THE WITNESS: It has memory built in the 23 recovery unit, right, that you can store data. 24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Right. 25 345 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. What is the significance of the recovery 3 unit having three channels? 4 A. Well, some units have one channel, some 5 units have three, some have five, some have up to eight 6 now. Most people are -- really, in South Florida, you 7 don't need any more than three channels. Five channels 8 are -- well, three channels, it actually is in contact 9 simultaneously with three satellites, but actually it 10 can log up to six satellites. You can -- they're 11 looking at six satellites very fast, it switches 12 between the different satellites. 13 So in South Florida three satellites, if 14 you're out in the open and there's no overhead 15 vegetation, three satellites is just plenty enough. 16 There's six channel receivers. Five channel receivers 17 are helpful if you're in a tree canopy with just spaces 18 of lights that are getting through where the satellite 19 can reach the unit and it helps somewhat in that 20 respect, but, you know, you don't in South Florida -- 21 in my opinion you don't need a six channel receiver. 22 Q. Am I corrected then in understanding that 23 a channel tracks a satellite at any one time? 24 A. Yeah, but it's quickly switching from one 25 to another very, very quickly. 346 1 Q. How quickly is very quickly? 2 A. Split seconds. 3 MR. FITZGERALD: Nanoseconds? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. This is a proven 5 system. The military was shooting missiles down 6 chimney stacks. This is an accurate system, 7 very accurate. 8 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 9 Q. Did they use three channel recovery units 10 for that operation? 11 A. I have no idea. I'm sure it was ... 12 MR. FITZGERALD: We'll talk about that 13 later. 14 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 15 Q. What was the ephemeris window available on 16 the days you did your field work, do you know? 17 A. It's available. I don't -- it's digitally 18 it's available. 19 Q. Will that window be reflected in the 20 digitized files we have yet to receive? 21 A. I think so. It -- go ahead. 22 Q. What is an ephemeris window? 23 A. Do you know the definition of ephemeris? 24 Q. No. 25 A. It's a constellation of stars, in this 347 1 case the constellation of satellites. 2 Q. Okay. 3 What is the definition of ephemeris 4 window? 5 A. The window of opportunity where -- that 6 you have enough -- you have the right constellation of 7 satellites to acquire the data. 8 MR. GREEN: Have a good day everybody. 9 (Thereupon, Mr. Green left the 10 deposition.) 11 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 12 Q. During your field work, did you download 13 any data while you were out in the field from your 14 recovery unit? 15 A. Out in the field? Ask that question 16 again. 17 Q. During the days that you were doing field 18 work, did you download any data from your recovery unit 19 during the course of that day? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So you would collect data in your recovery 22 unit for the entire day that you were in the field and 23 download it at the end of the day when you returned to 24 the District, just once per day? 25 A. Yes. 348 1 Q. Approximately how many sites would you 2 visit each of those days, if you were out for a full 3 day? 4 A. This was asked and answered yesterday. 5 If I went by air boat it could be as low 6 as 15. If I went by helicopter it could be possibly as 7 high as 35 to 40. 8 Q. I'm trying to understand the accuracy of 9 your map that is in Exhibit 1. And you testified 10 yesterday that you -- doing the rectification the root 11 mean square was .4 and you had accuracy to within eight 12 meters. Do you remember that testimony? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then you've indicated that you were 15 able to locate sites within three to seven meters of 16 accuracy; is that correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Am I correct then in understanding that 19 the map is actually accurate within 11 to 15 meters? 20 A. No. The map is accurate to eight meters 21 through the rectification process. 22 Q. Is the three to seven meter differential 23 not reflected in the mapping in any way? 24 A. Not -- not in the actual map itself, no. 25 Q. Why not? 349 1 A. The three to seven is reflected in the 2 ground truth sites which we took into account, because 3 we looked at three by three pixels. That was covered. 4 That -- that altogether eight meters within the 5 rectification process and up to seven meters within the 6 error, the ground truth data or the error analysis 7 data, so that gives you 15 meters. I could -- possibly 8 my ground point could possibly be off by 15 meters, it 9 could be better than that too. It could be as good as 10 three meters -- six meters, so six to 15 meters. 11 Q. Have you ever attempted to create a map 12 that overlaid several data sets such as vegetation and 13 hydrology, soil phosphorus, those kind of data sets? 14 A. Not that I can remember. 15 Q. Do you know whether anyone at the District 16 or anyone working for the District has attempted to 17 create such maps? 18 A. Overlays, there's many possibilities. I 19 mean that's what GIS does. The -- we have 51 ARC/INFO 20 licenses distributed throughout the District and there 21 could be numerous people working on doing applications 22 like that. And I'm not sure who would be and who's 23 not. 24 Q. John Jensen created a 3-D map overlaying 25 two sets of data in Exhibit 8, didn't he? 350 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Have you ever seen a similar 3-D map 4 created by anyone else for one of the WCAs, Loxahatchee 5 or the Everglades National Park? 6 A. A 3-D of what? Say that question one more 7 time. 8 Q. Have you ever seen a similar map to this 9 3-D map created by John Jensen? 10 A. Similar to? 11 Q. For the any of WCAs, Loxahatchee or the 12 Everglades National Park? 13 A. I have seen a 3-D topographic map of the 14 Everglades of the Conservation Areas that was created a 15 while back. 16 Q. Is that the only one? 17 A. That I can recall. 18 Q. If someone wanted to create a map which 19 overlaid several data sets, would they come to you to 20 request that mapping? 21 A. It's possible, yeah. I mean I'm capable 22 of doing it. 23 Q. And no one's ever made that request of 24 you? 25 A. No. 351 1 Q. Who else might they go to? 2 A. Oh, there's many people capable at the 3 District. It's not a very hard feat if you know GIS, 4 like I said, and there's 51 floating licenses. 5 Probably in excess of a 150 people who know GIS at the 6 District. 7 Q. So anyone with access to the ARC/INFO 8 stations would be able to create such a map? 9 A. Or ERDAS, now called Imagine Software. 10 Q. Have you done any analysis to support or 11 establish a correlation between the vegetation changes 12 and either hydroperiod manipulation or nutrient influx? 13 A. Say that again. 14 Q. Have you done any analysis to support or 15 establishment a correlation between vegetation changes 16 and hydroperiod manipulation or nutrient influxes? 17 A. Yeah, I would say I have. 18 Q. What have you done? 19 A. Well, I think the work that I helped Dewey 20 work through was partly looking at hydroperiod. I 21 think the work we're doing in the Holeyland looking at 22 all parameters to figure why the cattail has expanded 23 so quickly. And I believe those were the two ones that 24 I can recall. 25 Q. Are you aware of such correlation analysis 352 1 being done by anyone else at the District? 2 A. Yeah, I'm not the only one working on this 3 project. 4 Q. Other than the people who are working with 5 you in the Holeyland and other than Dewey Worth, are 6 there other people at the District who are doing 7 correlation analysis to support or establish a 8 correlation between vegetation changes and either 9 hydroperiod manipulation or nutrient influxes? 10 A. Yes. This was asked and answered 11 yesterday, but there's a number people working on 12 transects within Area 2 to show those very same things. 13 Q. Any others? 14 A. Not as far as I know. 15 Q. When you met with John Jensen were any 16 federal government officials present? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Who was present with you at your meetings 19 with John Jensen? 20 A. Dewey Worth, Les Vilchek, Brent Moll, John 21 Richardson, I don't remember his first name, his last 22 name was Perlman, he's with the University of Florida, 23 and Marguerite Koch. That's all I can recall. 24 Q. What was Mr. or Dr. Perlman's function in 25 those meetings? 353 1 A. He was just giving Dr. Jensen an overview 2 of some of the classification schemes that they were 3 looking at, such as Florida Natural Areas Inventory for 4 doing a classification for the whole state. I can't 5 remember -- he was doing working with somebody, but I'm 6 not -- I can't remember. This is when we visited John 7 Richardson up at the University of Florida. 8 Q. Why was Jensen being briefed on the 9 classification schemes being used to classify the 10 entire state? 11 A. I think it was more of a -- just a general 12 thing. I think the main purpose he was there for was 13 to review John Richardson's techniques for developing 14 vegetation map using multispectral data sets in the 15 Lake Okeechobee littoral zone. 16 Q. Do you recall whether Jensen had any 17 criticisms of the way Dr. Richardson had been 18 proceeding with his mapping? 19 A. It's all -- you have the peer review here 20 somewhere. It was handed over. It's all within that. 21 MS. RAEPPLE: Why don't we take about a 22 five minute break at this point. 23 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 24 record.) 25 354 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. Mr. Rutchey, before I have this document 3 marked, can you identify what that is so I can 4 determine whether it's worth making it an exhibit or 5 not? 6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Carolyn, did you ever 7 find the folder that had the phosphorus data he 8 prepared for Mike Maceina? 9 MS. RAEPPLE: No. 10 MR. CESARANO: Go ahead and answer. 11 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 12 Q. Go ahead, I'm listening. 13 A. To the best of my knowledge, this is like 14 the very raw input data into a program that converts 15 lat longs to the state planning coordinate system. 16 Sites that were worked up and given to Mike Maceina in 17 the memo that was previously handed out, Exhibit 14. 18 Q. Let's have it marked then as Exhibit 15. 19 (Thereupon, the document was marked 20 Rutchey Exb. No. 15 for Identification.) 21 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 22 Q. Do you know how the information shown in 23 Exhibit 15 was used by Mike Maceina? 24 A. It was -- first thing he did is rename the 25 whole descriptions, because these are other people's 355 1 names that they've used. I think some of these are 2 Dave Swift sites, Nancy Urban, Steve Davis. And he 3 named it so that he could better understand it in his 4 data analysis. Basically what he used -- this was the 5 location of the sites so he can determine how far or -- 6 I really determined how far they were from the S-10 7 structures and provided them -- that information to him 8 in one of the data sets that I gave him. 9 Q. Can you identify this document? 10 A. I really don't recall where this came 11 from, but my best -- I don't even want to guess. I 12 don't recall it. 13 Q. All right. 14 A. Might not even be me. 15 Q. This is from your files. Since you don't 16 recall it I won't have it marked as an exhibit. 17 A. Okay. 18 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as Exhibit 19 16. 20 (Thereupon, the document was marked 21 Rutchey Exb. No. 16 for Identification.) 22 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 23 Q. Can you identify Exhibit 16? 24 A. This is the synopsis that, or the critique 25 or the summary of Dr. Jensen's day spent with me 356 1 reviewing our remote sensing efforts at the District 2 along with another separate review done of John 3 Richardson's remote sensing efforts for mapping 4 vegetation, littoral zone of Lake Okeechobee. 5 Q. Did Dr. Jensen meet with you for the 6 purpose of reviewing the remote sensing at the District 7 prior to obtaining the data that he utilized to create 8 Exhibit 8? 9 A. I believe it was prior to that but I'm not 10 positive on that, but I think it was. 11 Q. Okay. 12 And the first page of this Exhibit 13 indicates that he met with you during the week of 14 February 24th; is that accurate? 15 A. 25th through the 28th, yeah. 16 Q. On the page numbered 1, it's the second 17 page of this Exhibit 16, the last sentence in the first 18 paragraphs indicates that a final detailed report shall 19 be submitted. Is this Exhibit 16 that final detailed 20 report or is there a subsequent detailed report? 21 A. This is it. 22 Q. Okay. 23 Could you explain the format of this 24 report to me? That first paragraph on the second page 25 in the exhibit is in quotes. Is that quote from 357 1 another document, do you know? 2 A. Well, you'll have to ask Dr. Jensen why he 3 put it in quotes, I'm not sure. 4 Q. But you're confident that the report 5 referenced in that last sentence is this Exhibit 16; is 6 that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 Let me show you another document and ask 10 you if this is the phosphorus data that you submitted 11 to Mike Maceina. 12 A. Yes. 13 MS. RAEPPLE: I'd like to mark that is 14 that as Exhibit 17. 15 (Thereupon, the document was marked 16 Rutchey Exb. No. 17 for Identification.) 17 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as Exhibit 18 18. 19 (Thereupon, the document was marked 20 Rutchey Exb. No. 18 for Identification.) 21 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 22 Q. Can you identify Exhibit 18? 23 A. It's a memo that I wrote to Tony Federico. 24 Q. Whose handwriting is in the upper 25 right-hand corner of the first page of this Exhibit? 358 1 A. Tom Fontaine. 2 Q. Why does this memo with Tom Fontaine's 3 handwriting on it appear in your files? 4 A. Well, basically when people make comments 5 on memos, as a courtesy our secretary usually gives us 6 a copy and I usually file it, so that when I go back 7 and pull out an old memo that I need to look at to 8 remember something I can see any comments that someone 9 may have made. 10 Q. The handwriting indicates that you and Les 11 feel that digital approaches to mapping are not as 12 satisfactory as other techniques. Is that reference to 13 Les Les Vilchek? 14 A. Yeah, his name is on the memo. 15 Q. Did you voice the same concern to Tom 16 Fontaine that you advised here in this deposition with 17 regard to digital mapping? 18 A. I think this memo does that and it's 19 through him -- I don't -- I think I did it in a written 20 way. 21 Q. But my question, those concerns are the 22 same as the concerns that you voiced in deposition is 23 that correct? 24 A. (No response.) 25 Q. Your opinion has not changed since you 359 1 wrote this memo; is that correct? 2 A. Basically I think this memo -- let me read 3 this again. I would say I still agree with this memo, 4 yes. 5 Q. In the second paragraph on the first page 6 of this memo you reference there being better ways of 7 making accurate maps. Are those better ways the 8 interpretation of aerial photography that you've 9 described in this deposition? 10 A. Yes, in my opinion I think that is a 11 better way. 12 Q. In your opinion, is the interpretation of 13 aerial photography better than the interpretation of 14 satellite imagery for the purpose of differentiating 15 between cattail and sawgrass? 16 A. I think it will be more accurate, yes. 17 Q. On the second page in the first full 18 paragraph, you indicate that there are complicating 19 factors -- this is the second sentence in that first 20 full paragraph, "Complicating factors are mainly 21 variation of hydroperiod, periphyton (algal mats) and 22 mixed vegetation communities." 23 Could you go through each of these 24 complicating factors and explain to me why they are 25 complicating factors? 360 1 A. Hydroperiod and periphyton are sort of 2 linked. If we have high water and the periphyton is at 3 the bottom on any given day the satellite imagery is 4 going to look at that and look at it in a different way 5 than on a day where we have high water and periphyton 6 is floating. Those are complicating factors when you 7 actually start analyzing the data. I think I've 8 explained those pretty well in my paper and how they 9 complicate things. 10 And mixed vegetation communities have 11 always been a complicated issue on digitally remote 12 sensed data because everybody wants to know exactly how 13 everything is mixed and I -- that's a very hard number 14 to come up with. They want to know exactly how much 15 cattail is mixed with the sawgrass, and I don't think 16 you're going to derive exactly how much through 17 remotely sensed data. I think you can tell that that's 18 a mixed community, but the percentage of mixture is -- 19 I would say at this point in time impossible, an 20 impossible task. 21 Q. Would it be possible to create more 22 classes of mixed communities than you created in the 23 mapping effort reflected in Exhibit 1? 24 A. Is more possible? 25 Q. Yes. 361 1 A. Using what technique? 2 Q. Using the techniques that you used to 3 create the map in Exhibit 1. 4 A. Could I come up with more classes? 5 Q. More classes of mixed communities. 6 A. It might be possible. 7 Q. Did you attempt to come up with more 8 classes of mixed communities when you were creating the 9 map reflected in Exhibit 1? 10 A. No. I didn't attempt to, no. 11 Q. Why didn't you attempt to? 12 A. Basically, I let the ground truth 13 information determine the types of classes that would 14 be -- drive the process. I -- you know, as this is a 15 fairly expensive effort, going out and collecting the 16 data and 129 sites, I mean I guess I could have 17 collected 300 more sites and maybe a thousand more and 18 maybe I would got a little more, a bit more 19 information, but the point is how much more accuracy do 20 you -- do you gain for the dollar spent. It's all part 21 of the overall process. I mean if the map becomes five 22 percent more accurate is it worth doubling the price of 23 the effort? I don't think so. 24 Q. Is that what it would have cost to -- 25 A. I don't know. 362 1 Q. -- create more classes of mixed 2 communities? 3 A. I don't know, I have no idea. 4 Q. In the next to last paragraph there's 5 mention of an inter-agency agreement with the National 6 Park Service to acquire multispectral scanner data and 7 color infrared photography of Florida south of Lake 8 Okeechobee. Has a map been created from that mission? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know whether there are plans to 11 create a map from that photography? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What are those plans? 14 A. There's a contract from -- through the 15 Park to Roy Welch at the University of Georgia, I 16 can't -- I don't know -- I don't think it's a signed 17 off deal yet, but Welch is charged with a -- creating a 18 map, at least of Everglades National Park and Big 19 Cypress and Biscayne National Preserve using this NASA 20 photography. 21 Q. What is your involvement in that mapping 22 effort? 23 A. As part of the process he's going to use 24 satellite imagery as his rectification base and I 25 believe the District is going to provide that to him as 363 1 long as he can work out the licensing agreement with 2 SPOT Image Corporation. 3 Q. Is that the extent of your involvement in 4 that mapping effort? 5 A. There's talk that Area 3, that we might 6 let him do Area 3 also through the District as a 7 separate contract or in cooperation through the Park, 8 or as an add-on through the Park. 9 Q. And if he maps WCA-3, the cost of that 10 mapping will be born by the District; is that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. This other mapping is being funded by the 13 U.S. government? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When will Mr. Welch begin that mapping, do 16 you know? 17 A. I'm not -- I know he hasn't signed the 18 dotted line. This photography data set is the poorest 19 I've ever seen and he hasn't even looked at it yet. I 20 think when he looks at it he's going change his mind. 21 Maybe not, I don't know. But I think it's poor. 22 Q. What makes it poor? 23 A. I think what I'm hearing, it's the 24 emulsion process, it's very dark. It's the darkest 25 photography data set I've ever seen. I actually 364 1 haven't taken it out in the field and started looking 2 at differences in the vegetation. Well, that's ... 3 Q. Do you know whether there are plans to fly 4 another mission to obtain a better data set? 5 A. Not that I know of. 6 Q. Is that what would be required to improve 7 the photography? 8 A. Well, it's not to improve that 9 photography, in order to replace it, yeah. 10 Q. That's what I'm asking. I don't know 11 enough about photography to know if you could reprocess 12 the available photography and get a better data set. 13 A. I am not -- that might a possibility, also 14 it might go back to NASA and say this emulsion process, 15 you need make this stuff lighter, I'm not sure. 16 MS. RAEPPLE: Mark this please as 19. 17 (Thereupon, the document was marked 18 Rutchey Exb. No. 19 for Identification.) 19 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 20 Q. I'm now showing you a document which has 21 been marked as Exhibit 19, which is a memo from you to 22 Garth Redfield dated July 29, 1991. In the second 23 paragraph, the first sentence, it states that to obtain 24 an expected accuracy of 85 percent with an allowable 25 error of five percent the minimum number of points 365 1 necessary for reliable results is 204. Could you 2 explain to me why 204 points are needed? 3 A. This is all in the paper. 4 Q. The paper being a reference to Exhibit 1? 5 A. Exhibit 1. 6 It's -- okay. I'm going to read it. It 7 says number of points -- 8 Q. Well, it's not necessary to read it if you 9 could show me where it is. 10 A. Page 5, last paragraph. 11 Q. All right. 12 At the bottom of Page 5 it says this is 13 based on the binomial probability formula. Are you 14 familiar with those formulas? 15 A. Not off the top of my head, but I have 16 that book, and if I sit down with it it will recollect 17 my memory. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Why were you unable to achieve this 20 mapping accuracy level of 85 percent? 21 A. I don't really think that's what it means. 22 It's just the number of points required in order to 23 test for that. Again, I'll have to go back and read 24 this. This section, this gets into statistics. I'm -- 25 I don't know statistics right off the top of my head. 366 1 I know that I followed those procedures based on 2 experts in this field who have written and published 3 many papers, such as Congalton, Russell Congalton, 4 Rosenfield, Fitzpatrick, Michael Story, these are all 5 people who have done rigorous testing of map accuracy 6 standards for remotely sensed data. And I didn't do 7 anything out of ordinary. I based it all on previous 8 work. And then -- I think that is the best I could 9 possibly do. 10 Q. In the first sentence of the next 11 paragraph it states that for WCA-2A the total number of 12 points necessary for ground truthing and error analysis 13 is 470. Did you collect 470 points? 14 A. I collected 241 and 129, so whatever that 15 is. 16 Q. My math indicates it's 370. 17 A. That's fine. 18 I think this was a preliminary thing that 19 Garth had asked me to do to get an idea of how much 20 helicopter time I was going to need at that time. 21 Q. Why did you not collect the full 470 22 points? 23 A. I think at that time it was just a rough 24 estimate. I knew, you know, I needed 204. I went 25 beyond that. And, like I said, he just wanted a rough 367 1 estimate. So I always side with going with a little 2 more just in case. 3 Q. What was the basis for your estimate of 4 470 points being needed? 5 A. Well, personally what I think I did is I 6 knew that I needed 204 as a minimum and I needed a 7 hundred and -- well, if I had the 30 initial clusters I 8 needed -- I was going to try for five within each 9 cluster, that would be 150. I probably added a 120 10 because, you know, he's looking at it from the point 11 he's going to go to someone, say Ken needs this much 12 time in helicopter time. Well, I like to go on side of 13 getting more time than I really need just in case I 14 need it. And so that's -- I fudged a number basically. 15 Q. In the next to last sentence of that final 16 paragraph it states that we believe we are scarring the 17 land and stressing certain bird species. Was that 18 occurring in WCA-2A? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How were you scarring the land? 21 A. Well, basically Everglades has air boat 22 trails and they are well-used trails that people have 23 used over the years and there's a trail. But when you 24 head directly to a site that you're, you know your 25 ground truth site that you picked off a map, it might 368 1 not be along a trail. So if a line goes across the 2 land when you're doing that you're creating another -- 3 well, I consider it a scar on the land even though 4 there's been a lot of research showing that air boats 5 really don't have a lot of effect on the Everglades 6 vegetation, that it comes back. 7 But I -- just when I'm flying over I can 8 see new trails that are being blazed. Sometimes when 9 you start a trail, the next boat comes along, oh, gee, 10 there's another, let's go, then you start another 11 trail. So I don't want to start any new trails. I 12 want to keep on the same trails that other people have 13 used over the years and I don't want to blaze trails 14 over -- all over Everglades until finally it's just a 15 crisscross of trails and so that's ... 16 Q. What about bird species, what bird species 17 were you stressing? 18 A. When you're going along in an air boat, 19 you're going cross country often on a boat trail, but I 20 know -- see a lot of birds are pretty smart, you know, 21 they know, figure out probably with a air boat it's a 22 main trail, they go off to seek a more secluded area. 23 But if you're picking a point and one of their secluded 24 areas happens to be right where they are perching or 25 nesting or whatever and you have to go there, you're 369 1 scaring them away. I consider that stressing the 2 birds. 3 Q. Were you making this point because you 4 wanted permission to use helicopters rather than air 5 boats for the ground truthing? 6 A. That's right. It's dangerous going 7 cross-country in a helicopter. I actually have flipped 8 a helicopter in the Everglades going cross-country, so 9 it's not -- it's not a safe thing. 10 Q. A helicopter or an air boat? 11 A. Excuse me, an air boat. 12 Q. Do helicopters not scar the land? 13 A. Well, they never land. They probably 14 stress birds also though. But, you know, probably my 15 major thing was our safety. 16 Q. And you felt you would be safer because a 17 helicopter could go cross-country without flipping 18 over? 19 A. Yeah. I'll add to that, on the helicopter 20 I think you get a better perspective of the ground that 21 you're looking at also for your ground truthing 22 techniques. 23 Q. Why is that? 24 A. Because you're up off the ground and, you 25 know, you can get higher than you can by standing on 370 1 top of the cage of the air boat. So most of our work 2 involved for ground truthing did involve a helicopter, 3 I'd say the majority of it. 4 Q. And in that ground truthing from a 5 helicopter, you didn't land at the site, just hovered; 6 is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. How high you were when you hovered? 9 A. It could be 25 to 100 feet, in that range. 10 It could do anything. If you want to see a species on 11 the ground, he'd take you down two feet off the ground. 12 I mean it's depending on what you wanted to see. 13 MS. RAEPPLE: Would you mark this document 14 as Exhibit 20? 15 (Thereupon, the document was marked 16 Rutchey Exb. No. 20 for Identification.) 17 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 18 Q. In the files that you've produced, Mr. 19 Rutchey, there were several documents like this. They 20 appeared to be status reports. Is that an accurate 21 assessment? 22 A. Yeah. I wouldn't call this one a status 23 report, but... 24 Q. What is this document which has been 25 marked as Exhibit 20? 371 1 A. We used to have what we call program 2 documents or project documents, and I was asked to 3 update a project document and here they are and there's 4 my comments. 5 I was -- by reading this, I was pretty 6 optimistic. 7 Q. The section titled progress to date, do 8 those three paragraphs reflect work that was already 9 completed at this time this document with written? 10 A. No. 1 was. No. 2, the first sentence 11 was. The second sentence never really happened, 12 because basically the LandSat scene that I was 13 referring to ended up being corrupt as stated in No. 1. 14 And No. 3, it hasn't -- at that point we weren't even 15 started on it. 16 Q. What about the items listed under product, 17 are those products that had already been produced at 18 the time this memo was written? 19 A. Yes, for the third quarter. Fourth 20 quarter, No. 2 was -- that was never done. Again, it 21 was based on that one LandSat TM scene being corrupt 22 and having to be sent back. 23 Q. And a new scene was not obtained? 24 A. There hadn't -- recently I heard there was 25 another clean scene of LandSat data, but I haven't seen 372 1 it. 2 Q. When does the quarter, quarter of the 3 fiscal year 89-90 end, do you know? 4 A. Yes. Last September 30 would be the 5 fourth quarter. 6 Q. Fiscal year ends on September 30? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. The map referenced in Paragraph 1, the 9 final supervised classification of LandSat satellite 10 scene for March 15, 1988 for Water Conservation Area 2 11 A, have we seen that map in this deposition? 12 A. It was never produced because if you look 13 at the progress to date in No. 1, it was going to be 14 taken from that satellite imagery. And this imagery 15 was sent back, it was corrupt. It was sent back to 16 SPOT. Oh -- oh, wait a second. This is something 17 different. Well, -- I never did it. And I never 18 produced anything like that, never produced that, no. 19 Q. Was a preliminary map created of WCA-2A 20 from this LandSat satellite scene from March 18, 1988? 21 A. No. 22 Q. On the next page of this exhibit, it's 23 Page 2 of the exhibit at the top right-hand corner it 24 says District-wide, Attachment B, in Paragraph 3-B, it 25 talks about the Holeyland and northeast WCA-3A, annual 373 1 vegetation map starting in 1989. Were those maps ever 2 created? 3 A. This is -- I -- you know, I know this was 4 all, you know, direction by Dewey Worth and we were, I 5 think some of the managers were very optimistic of what 6 we were going to obtain from satellite imagery. I 7 wrote up this report, and basically I've been all over 8 the map and working on a number of projects and pulled 9 off on this, do this for me and produce this map for me 10 and so I think you have a good handle on what I haven't 11 been working on. 12 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 13 record.) 14 (Thereupon, the document was marked 15 Rutchey Exb. No. 21 for Identification.) 16 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 17 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I'm now showing you an 18 exhibit which has been marked as Exhibit 21. It's a 19 memo from you to Walt Dineen dated October 30, 1989. 20 Do you recall the Everglades symposium referenced in 21 this memo? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In the first paragraph of that memo you 24 make the point -- it's the last part of that 25 paragraph -- you make the point that it was reinforced 374 1 in your mind that research efforts such as was done for 2 the Everglades symposium are what is needed and 3 essential for sound management decisions to be made. 4 Is that still your feeling? 5 A. I think there was, at that symposium and 6 there's now a book coming out about it, there was a lot 7 of good papers presented and basically, yeah, what I 8 would like to see is management decisions that are good 9 for the Everglades based on good research and not so 10 much politics. In fact, I'd like politics to totally 11 stay out of it. 12 Q. Why is research needed for sound 13 management decisions? 14 A. Well, research tells you -- well, for 15 instance, you -- what I consider research, one, just on 16 research thing, you could look at vegetation over time 17 and if you see certain trends you might order a 18 hydroperiod based on what you're seeing. So that 19 research has helped you readjust hydroperiod such as 20 like on, let's say the north end of the Everglades 21 National Park. 22 You know, there's been people monitoring 23 or personal observations of vegetation in that area and 24 realize that it's not getting enough water. So 25 that's -- like that's what I consider, and that 375 1 personal observances isn't research, but it's someone 2 had been monitoring that with rigorous biological 3 ground control and wrote a report and submitted it to 4 management and then they could say hey, look, they're 5 showing that we need more water, let's give them more 6 water. But probably somehow when we started giving 7 more water somebody would sue us. That seems to be 8 what always happens whenever we want to do something 9 major. That's just the way it is down here. 10 Q. Do you feel that the decisions that are 11 being made with regards to the Everglades by the 12 District presently are being driven by politics rather 13 than research? 14 A. I can't answer that confidently. I hope 15 not. But my -- I think my view of life is most things 16 are driven by economics and, you know, the way I look 17 at it, Mother Nature doesn't have a way to generate 18 money. It takes a good steward of the land to come out 19 and battle the confrontations of people with money in 20 order to make things right. 21 Q. On the third page of this document, the 22 first full paragraph, there's a reference to rising sea 23 levels being a problem, specifically a problem for 24 water management. What problems were you referencing 25 in that paragraph, do you recall? 376 1 A. Well, basically if -- I mean we're talking 2 maybe in geologic time, if this trend continues 3 eventually Florida will be under water, that would be a 4 major water management problem. 5 Q. In the next paragraph at the bottom, you 6 talk about the desirability of a Melaleuca maintenance 7 program, and I saw a reference to that in several of 8 the documents that you produced to us. Has such a 9 Melaleuca maintenance program been instituted? 10 A. Yeah, there's actually a Melaleuca task 11 force to combat the problem of Melaleuca in South 12 Florida. 13 Q. Do you have any involvement with that 14 program? 15 A. I initially did. In fact, Dewey and I 16 were one of the first ones in -- at least in Area 2, to 17 actually go after this problem. We literally treated 18 thousand of tree islands out there. We came up with a 19 method of hack and squirt, which is still being used 20 because they haven't found anything else that works. 21 We actually figured out how much application of 22 herbicide to apply to a tree based on diameter. We 23 kept meticulous records. And I think a lot of people 24 are still using that data for the treatment of 25 Melaleuca. It's one of the worst, one of the major 377 1 economic problems facing South Florida. I think the 2 only long term solution going to be probably some time 3 of biological control. I don't think we're ever going 4 to win it using herbicides and they're -- well... 5 Q. In the next paragraph you talk about 6 Curtis Richardson's presentation. And you state all I 7 could think of when Curtis Richardson was speaking was 8 he is going to be a thorn in the District's side. What 9 is that a reference to? 10 A. Well, I -- if I was -- had the -- let's 11 say I did a study that showed that 2 plus 2 equals 4. 12 I wouldn't want to debate Curtis Richardson that that 13 was the truth, because somehow he could twist it or he 14 make me look stupid because he's a very good speaker. 15 And I wouldn't want to have to defend myself against 16 him. He has -- well, let's just say he's a very good 17 speaker, and convincing and sometimes, well, that's a 18 good, that's good about a person. 19 Q. Did you feel that the position he was 20 advocating or presenting at that symposium was a 21 equivalent to 2 plus 2 does not equal 4? 22 A. No. In fact, I even referenced a Curtis 23 Richardson work in my Exhibit 1. And I basically think 24 some of his reports have actually supported what I've 25 shown in my work documenting the spread of cattail and 378 1 in Conservation Area 2. 2 Q. Why were you concerned that he was going 3 to be a thorn in the District's side? 4 A. At the time there were rumors about him 5 and he was a biostitute and, you know, I probably 6 should ignore the rumors because I haven't personally 7 observed that about him. But having that prior 8 knowledge, and then seeing him speak, I said this guy 9 could, if he really is twisting the data, he's a really 10 good speaker and he gets up in front of a group of 11 people, he could -- he's good. 12 Q. Have you had occasion since you've wrote 13 this memo to review Curtis Richardson's work? 14 A. No, just that one piece of work that I've 15 referenced in my publication. 16 Q. Based on the work of Curtis Richardson 17 that you have reviewed, what is your assessment of his 18 work? 19 A. That, you know, that particular piece of 20 work I -- that's the only one that I recall that I've 21 seen. I thought it was -- I thought it was fair. I 22 thought he made an objective -- did an objective work 23 based on that one piece. 24 Q. Has anyone at the District indicated to 25 you that some of Curtis Richardson's work has not been 379 1 good quality? 2 A. Back then I think where I heard that was 3 maybe Walt Dineen. There again, I mean the way I view 4 life basically, and maybe this time I put too much into 5 what Walt was telling me, but I usually let -- when you 6 talk to me I usually let it go in one ear and out the 7 other if it's about another person. I usually try to 8 draw my own conclusions. And I think as far as that 9 one work of Curtis Richardson, I thought of it as a 10 fair piece of work. And it didn't seem like it was 11 being biased to me. 12 Q. What about since you wrote this memo? 13 Have you heard of anyone at the District who felt 14 Curtis Richardson's work was not accurate? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Has his reputation around the District 17 improved then? 18 MR. CESARANO: Well, do you know what his 19 reputation around the District is? I think that 20 you need a foundation. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 MS. RAEPPLE: I'll withdraw the question. 23 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 24 record.) 25 380 1 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 2 Q. On the last page of this exhibit, the last 3 sentence in the first partial paragraph, talks about 4 there having been growth that's already occurred in the 5 east Everglades and it's too late to do anything about 6 it, so put a levee system around those people to afford 7 them protection. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Was that your opinion or was that the 10 opinion of someone at the symposium? 11 A. I'm going to have -- because I definitely 12 have my opinions now. Well -- okay, that was my 13 statement. That was my statement. 14 Q. Do you still agree with that statement? 15 A. Well, it's a problem. These people have 16 gone out there, basically squatted and built those 17 houses. When you fly over you see houses right on the 18 edge of the Everglades. And if we flood that 19 Everglades they're going to get flooded. So what do we 20 do? We put -- they'll come to the board meeting, 21 they're going to threaten to sue us. They're somewhat 22 organized. They probably -- if they get a good enough 23 lawyer, you know, they could probably win. I don't 24 know. I don't guess we want to fight it. 25 The other option is to put a levee around 381 1 them, because that, you know, that the Park has bought 2 the east Everglades. Basically that area is suffering 3 from a loss of hydrology, hydroperiod. It needs water 4 to -- it makes sense, you can just see it when you look 5 at the satellite imagery that -- you can see Shark 6 River Slough, but you can see this part that looked 7 different, it looks different because it doesn't get 8 enough water, it needs water. So it's a problem. 9 Personally at this point, it's a complicated issue and 10 I'm not sure -- something needs to be done but what, 11 I'm not sure. 12 Q. These people who have built homes in the 13 east Everglades have built homes on public land; is 14 that correct? 15 A. I think it was their land and, you know, 16 lot of Everglades is, even the entire Water 17 Conservation Area is privately owned by people so -- 18 but do we give them a permit to build a house out there 19 and afford them flood protection? I don't think so. 20 Q. Then when you say they're squatters -- 21 A. They didn't get a permit -- 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- to build their house. That's my 24 understanding of the problem. 25 MS. RAEPPLE: Mark this as Exhibit 22. 382 1 (Thereupon, the document was marked 2 Rutchey Exb. No. 22 for Identification.) 3 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 4 Q. I'm now showing you a document which has 5 been marked as Exhibit 22 to this deposition. Why are 6 these fire records for WCA-2A in your files? 7 A. Basically I -- I scavenged these files 8 from Dewey's files when he left. 9 Q. Have you used them in any fashion? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How have you used them? 12 A. I've provided them to Yegang Wu, who is 13 making a fire model within Water Conservation Area 2A. 14 Q. When is that fire model proposed to be 15 complete? 16 A. I don't think there's an actual date that 17 I know of for completion. He's working on it. 18 Q. These records appear to only go through 19 about 1988. 20 A. I just got in the mail -- go ahead. 21 Q. Has this data been updated? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where is the updated data? 24 A. I just got it. 25 MS. RAEPPLE: Can we obtain a copy of that 383 1 updated fire data, please? 2 MR. CESARANO: Do you have it in your 3 office? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 MR. CESARANO: Can you pull it out? 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 8 Q. Let me show you two documents before I 9 have them marked, and see if one is an update of the 10 other, or if they're the same. 11 A. I'm -- I'm not sure I didn't -- well, go 12 ahead. 13 Q. Why are these annual average material 14 budgets for WCA-2, WCA-2A and WCA-3 combined for 1979 15 through -- 1978 in your files through '83? 16 A. To my best of my knowledge this was used 17 for the data that was provided to Mike Maceina for the 18 WCA-2A phosphorus analysis. I -- go ahead. 19 Q. Do you know why the one document which 20 doesn't have the cover sheet on it in the upper right 21 hand column in handwriting says new Dave Sobel's, was 22 that updated data? 23 A. I really don't know. 24 Q. Do you know which of these two documents 25 reflects the data given to Mike Maceina? 384 1 A. No. 2 MS. RAEPPLE: Mark this please as Exhibit 3 No. 23. 4 (Thereupon, the document was marked 5 Rutchey Exb. No. 23 for Identification.). 6 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 7 Q. Do you know why this document, which has 8 been marked as Exhibit 23 appears in your files? 9 A. Yeah, yeah. It looks like -- basically 10 you should be looking at this side. I think it looks 11 like Pete Rhoads scribbled on the back of a piece of 12 the SWIM Plan and said Walt, please have Ken do this. 13 Q. Do you recall whether you ever did plot 14 out the individual sample dates for these two years? 15 A. I think I did for Jim Moll. 16 Q. Which two years did the handwritten note 17 on back of this document reference? 18 A. I'm going to have to go back and look at 19 that data. 20 Q. Do you know what the purpose of plotting 21 out the individual sample dates for those two years 22 would have been? 23 A. No, this was just one of the assignments 24 that I get handed and I put it together and -- 25 Q. Do you know whether this analysis has been 385 1 updated? 2 A. I'm not aware of it. 3 Q. Do you know who wrote the portion of the 4 SWIM Plan that discusses this analysis? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Before I have this marked as an exhibit, 7 would you identify this stack of documents, please? 8 A. This came out of a folder that I call 9 phosphorus data, and I think a lot of it was compiled 10 into the two -- three files that was given to Mike 11 Maceina. 12 Q. It also looks like there's another file 13 here that was done as part of a request to Walt from 14 Pete Rhoads for Jim Noll. 15 If I mark this as an exhibit, can you 16 identify which portion of it was data given to Mike 17 Maceina? 18 A. Well, it was, you know, all combined. The 19 only exception would be this. This might have been 20 given to Mike Maceina also. 21 Q. That -- 22 A. It says Jim Noll right on it. 23 Q. The three page document stapled together 24 which says at the top data used for Jim Noll in 25 handwriting may or may not have gone to Mike Maceina, 386 1 but the rest of it did go to Mike Maceina in compiled 2 fashion? 3 A. Yes, in those data files that you already 4 have as an exhibit. 5 Q. Then this information is a duplicate of 6 the documents that we've already put into the record, 7 Or the data is duplicative of that data? 8 A. Yeah, it's a duplicate. 9 Q. All right. Let's not mark it as an 10 exhibit. 11 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the 12 record.) 13 BY MS. RAEPPLE: 14 Q. Before I mark that as an exhibit, can you 15 identify it? 16 A. Yeah, these are part of the CAWQ water 17 quality collection network that was collected in Water 18 Conservation Area 2 from 1978 to 1984 and their 19 locations. 20 Q. Are these related to the transects that 21 you've previously described that you and Dewey Worth 22 worked on? 23 A. He looked at this data as part of that 24 report, I believe. I don't recall how he actually used 25 it. You'd have to ask Dewey. 387 1 Q. Did you ever use the data reflected in 2 this document? 3 A. I might have pulled the chemical 4 constituents for those sites and compiled them and 5 given them to Dewey. Other than that I don't recall. 6 Q. All right. Then I won't mark it as an 7 exhibit. 8 MS. RAEPPLE: It's 4 o'clock. As I 9 indicated earlier I will need to stop at this 10 point to catch an airplane. I'd like to reserve 11 the right to call Mr. Rutchey back once we've 12 received the digitized files and had an 13 opportunity to review all of these photographs 14 that he's described today and to determine 15 whether we need to make further inquiry. 16 MR. CESARANO: If, after you get that 17 information, if you'll contact us and if there's 18 some way we can do it without inconveniencing 19 him again, we'd prefer to do it that way. But 20 if you'll be in touch with us we'll work it out 21 the best way we can. 22 MS. RAEPPLE: Thank you. I'll go along 23 with that. 24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same with us, right. 25 MR. FITZGERALD: I would suggest, in view 388 1 of the hearing officer's rulings over the last 2 month and a half about concluding discovery that 3 it would behoove the parties to try more than 4 just avoiding inconveniencing the witness by 5 bringing this to a swift conclusion by telling 6 them what they need out of the data or what they 7 need specifically identified. And I'm sure he 8 will try and accommodate them to avoid causing 9 any loss of time in evaluating and reviewing the 10 data. 11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Well, that was great. 12 Thank you, Mr. Rutchey. 13 Reading or waiving? 14 MR. CESARANO: What do we usually do? 15 MR. FITZGERALD: Read. 16 (Witness excused.) 17 18 (Thereupon, at 4:00 p.m., 19 the deposition was concluded.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 389 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PALM BEACH. ) 6 7 8 I hereby certify that I have read the 9 foregoing deposition by me given, and that the 10 statements contained therein are true and correct to 11 the best of my knowledge and belief. 12 13 14 Dated this_______day of___________, 1994. _ 15 16 17 ___________________________ 18 Ken Rutchey 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 390 1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 2 The State Of Florida ) 3 County Of Palm Beach. ) 4 I, the undersigned authority, certify that 5 Ken Rutchey personally appeared before me and was duly sworn. 6 7 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 22nd day of February, 1994. 8 9 _____________________________ Robin L. Merker, RPR 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 391 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 The State Of Florida ) 3 County Of Palm Beach. ) 4 I, Robin L. Merker, Registered 5 Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did report said deposition in 6 stenotype; and that the foregoing pages, numbered from 1 to 390, inclusive, are a true and correct 7 transcription of my shorthand notes of said deposition. 8 I further certify that I am not attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative 9 or employee of any attorney or counsel or party connected with the action, nor am I financially 10 interested in the action. 11 The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the 12 same by any means unless under the direct control and/or direction of the certifying reporter. 13 Dated this 22nd day of February, 1994. 14 15 __________________________________ 16 Robin L. Merker, RPR 17 18 19 The State Of Florida ) County Of Palm Beach. ) 20 21 The foregoing certificate was acknowledged before me this 22nd day of February, 1994 by 22 Robin L. Merker, who is personally known to me. 23 24 _______________________________ Notary Public - State of Florida 25 My commission expires: