220
1 Division of Administrative Hearings
2 Department of Administration, State of Florida
3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE)
OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; )
4 and WEDGEWORTH FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, )
5 V ) DOAH
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3038
6 DISTRICT, an agency of the )
State of Florida, et al., )
7 _____________Respondents._____)
) VOLUME II
8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, )
INC.; UNITED STATES SUGAR )
9 CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE )
SOUTH, INC., )
10 Petitioners, )
V ) DOAH
11 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3039
DISTRICT, an agency of the )
12 State of Florida, et al., )
_____________Respondents._____)
13 )
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
14 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;)
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )
15 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, )
16 V ) DOAH
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT) Case 92-3040
17 DISTRICT, an agency of the )
State of Florida, et al., )
18 _____________Respondents._____)
19
Deposition of Kenneth Rutchey
20
Taken before Robin L. Merker, Court
21 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of
Florida at large, pursuant to notice of taking
22 deposition filed by the Petitioners in the above cause.
23 - - -
Monday, February 7, 1992
24 319 Clematis Street
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
25 9:10 - 4:00 p.m.
221
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Petitioners Florida Sugar
Cane League, Inc., United States Sugar Corp,
3 and New Hope, Inc.:
4 Earl, Blank, Kavanaugh & Stotts
One Biscayne Tower
5 Suite 3636
Two South Biscayne Boulevard
6 Miami, Florida 33131
BY: MARK KOBELINSKI, ESQUIRE
7
On behalf of the Petitioners Sugar Cane Growers
8 Cooperative, Roth Farms, Inc., and WEDGEWORTH
Farms, Inc.:
9
Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams
10 123 South Calhoun Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32314
11 BY: WILLIAM H. GREEN, ESQUIRE and
CAROLYN S. RAEPPLE
12
On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD:
13
Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, Ltd.
14 100 Southeast 2nd Street
Miami, Florida 33131
15 BY: GREGORY M. CESARANO, ESQUIRE
16
On behalf of the Intervenor, United States of
17 America:
18 THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQUIRE
Assistant United States Attorney
19 155 South Miami Avenue
Suite 600
20 Miami, Florida 33130-1693
21 ALSO PRESENT:
22 EDWARD DOWNING
MICHAEL SOUKUP
23 MICHAEL STORY
24
25
222
1 - - -
2 I N D E X
3 - - -
4 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
5 Kenneth Rutchey
6 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 5
BY MS. RAEPPLE: 226
7
- - -
8
E X H I B I T S
9
- - -
10 Rutchey Exb. No. 1 8
Development of an Everglades Vegetation Map
11 Using a SPOT Image and the Global Positioning System
12 Rutchey Exb. No. 2 33
WCA-2A Field Data Collection Sites for 30
13 classes 10-2-91 to 1-13-92
14 Rutchey Exb. No. 3 56
WCA-2A Tree Islands
15
Rutchey Exb. No. 4 67
16 WCA-2A Accuracy Assessment 3-23 to 4-24-92.
17 Rutchey Exb. No. 5 80
Laboratory Notebook
18
Rutchey Exb. No. 6 105
19 WCA 3S for SPOT 5-11-92
20 Rutchey Exb. No. 7 105
WCA 3N for SPOT 5-11-92
21
Rutchey Exb. No. 8 108
22 Inland Wetland Change Detection in the
Everglades Water Conservation Area 2A Using a Time
23 Series of Normalized Remotely Sensed Data
24 Rutchey Exb. No. 9 196
Holeyland file, Bates Nos. 1220441 through
25 1220572
223
1
Rutchey Exb. No. 10 228
2 Color Map of WCA-2A, using SPOT image 4-4-87
3 Rutchey Exb. No. 11 273
Satellite imagery as of 1-25-93
4
Rutchey Exb. No. 12 278
5 Resume of Ken Rutchey
6 Rutchey Exb. No. 13 298
Memorandum dated 11-5-92 from Ken Rutchey
7
Rutchey Exb. No. 14 316
8 Memorandum dated 3-30-1990 from Michael Maceina
9 Rutchey Exb. No. 15 354
Latitudes and longitudes, coordinates
10
Rutchey Exb. No. 16 355
11 Review of Remote Sensing activities by John
Jensen.
12
Rutchey Exb. No. 17 357
13 Phosphorus data
14 Rutchey Exb. No. 18 364
Memorandum from Ken Rutchey and Les Vilchek
15 dated 10-22-92
16 Rutchey Exb. No. 19 370
Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 7-29-91
17
Rutchey Exb. No. 20 370
18 Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 6-18-90
19 Rutchey Exb. No. 21 373
Memorandum from Ken Rutchey dated 10-30-89.
20
Rutchey Exb. No. 22 382
21 WCA-2A fire records
22 Rutchey Exb. No. 23 384
Draft page of Everglades SWIM Plan with
23 handwritten note on back.
24
25
224
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 - - -
4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would remind Mr.
5 Rutchey that you're still under oath.
6 Let me just make a comment here. As I
7 explained just a few moments ago, prior to going
8 on the record, I have not completed my direct
9 testimony of the witness. And, in fact, given
10 the fact that we still don't have the electronic
11 data and some other documents we identified
12 yesterday, including the photos, I would have
13 difficulty doing so. However, Ms. Raepple, from
14 the Cooperative, has spoken with me and,
15 essentially, if I do not pass the baton at this
16 point in time, we're pretty much guaranteed not
17 to be able to finish Mr. Rutchey today and have
18 to call him back.
19 If I do pass the baton there is a
20 possibility that either A, I might need
21 additional redirect or we perhaps would ask
22 those questions of a different witness. So I
23 will at this time halt my direct testimony or
24 questioning. Ms. Raepple will commence, but I
25 will reserve the right to redirect or to
225
1 question Mr. Rutchey further, particularly after
2 we receive his electronic data if that need
3 arises.
4 The other comment I need to make is that
5 Mr. Rutchey is involved, or at least Dr.
6 Jensen's paper is based in part on the 2A study
7 that Mr. Rutchey did. The Jensen deposition is
8 set, I believe, for what, two weeks from
9 tomorrow or something? Is that everyone's
10 recollection?
11 MS. RAEPPLE: Um-hum.
12 MR. KOBELINSKI: He's been noticed by both
13 sides and his documents have been due. Given
14 this fact if paper is finalized, we need those
15 documents or we probably will not able to be
16 able to start. I was told there's only two days
17 he's available. He's the U.S.'s witness --
18 MR. CESARANO: No, he's the District's
19 witness. He assured me that his documents were
20 with Federal Express yesterday, they should be
21 getting in today.
22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay. All right.
23 MR. CESARANO: We'll send them out
24 immediately --
25 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- to you and transmit
226
1 that.
2 MR. KOBELINSKI: The only problem
3 accommodating this witness is if those are the
4 only two days we need really need to get those
5 as soon as possible.
6 MR. CESARANO: I understand.
7 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will -- under those
8 conditions, I will pass the baton to Ms.
9 Raepple.
10 If you have an objection to that, Greg, I
11 can go on, but as I said, we're guaranteed to
12 have to call him back another time.
13 MR. CESARANO: I don't think that's an
14 unreasonable request. We'll give it a try and
15 see how it develops.
16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay.
17 Thereupon,
18 Ken Rutchey
19 being by the undersigned Notary Public previously
20 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
21 CROSS (Ken Rutchey)
22 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
23 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I'm Carolyn Raepple. I'm
24 representing the Sugar Cane Grower's Cooperative of
25 Florida, Roth Farms and Wedgeworth Farms. I'm going to
227
1 ask you a number of questions today similar to what you
2 had yesterday with Mr. Kobelinski. If you don't
3 understand any of the questions I ask you, let me know,
4 I'll restate them. I'm not an expert in satellite
5 imagery interpretation. If I use a term incorrectly,
6 let me know, I'll try to restate the question in an
7 appropriate fashion. Do you understand?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay.
10 In the document which has been marked as
11 Exhibit 1 to this deposition, there are some vegetative
12 maps of WCA-2 A. Has the Water Management District
13 ever created a vegetative map for WCA-2 A prior to
14 those maps?
15 A. I did a preliminary map based on an April
16 1987 SPOT satellite image which was referenced a number
17 of times in other people's work.
18 Q. Was that map produced for this deposition?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where is it?
21 A. It -- what I produced was a folder on
22 that, the data of that map and also a big hard copy,
23 color hard copy.
24 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as -- two
25 page map as Exhibit 10.
228
1 (Thereupon, the document was marked
2 Rutchey Exb. No. 10 for Identification.)
3 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
4 Q. Is this the preliminary map to which you
5 just referenced?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When was Exhibit 10 created?
8 A. I'd say late 1987, 1988.
9 Q. Did you ground truth this map?
10 A. I went out in the field and got
11 information for the classes obtained in the map, yes.
12 Q. Would you explain the procedure that you
13 utilized to ground truth this map?
14 A. Back then we didn't have GPS. So I used
15 photography and went out in the field and visited the
16 sites and tried my best to find them in the satellite
17 imagery and extracted that information from each of
18 those types of vegetation classes, and performed a
19 supervised classification with that data.
20 Q. How could you tell whether you were at the
21 location on the ground that you thought you were at
22 when you did that site visit?
23 A. Accurately I couldn't. It's probably why
24 this piece of work has never been published. It had
25 its faults and it was more of a learning process to me
229
1 in the creation of this map. I basically did the best
2 I could from looking at the photography going out in
3 the field, and trying to determine those locations in
4 the satellite imagery.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Then you used no mechanical assistance to
7 locate yourself on the ground when you visited the site
8 for this map?
9 A. Basically at that time GPS wasn't in
10 existence and Loran is pretty inaccurate in the
11 Everglades. I would have been more accurate using
12 aerial photography then to try to use the Loran system
13 at that time.
14 Q. What type of aerial photography did you
15 utilize when you were creating Exhibit 10?
16 A. Boy, this is going back in time now.
17 We're talking five, six years.
18 I had a data set, but don't ask me what
19 date it was, I don't remember. It was close to that
20 time of Area 2.
21 Q. Was it color infrared?
22 A. It was color infrared.
23 Q. Are you familiar with the SWIM Plan for
24 the Everglades?
25 A. I've heard about it, yes.
230
1 Q. Are you familiar with the vegetative maps
2 for WCA-2 A that appear in that document?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you have any involvement in creating
5 maps for utilization in the Everglades SWIM Plan?
6 A. They might have been utilized, but it
7 was -- I didn't have any direct input to it or know
8 about it, you know, they -- that happens sometimes.
9 Q. When I reference the Everglades SWIM Plan,
10 do you understand that I'm referring to the three
11 volume set?
12 A. No. I don't have anything to do with the
13 SWIM Plan.
14 Q. Do you know how many volumes there are in
15 the Everglades SWIM Plan?
16 A. Nope.
17 Q. Have you ever seen the Everglades SWIM
18 Plan?
19 A. I might have seen the cover, but I didn't
20 take the time to read it or anything.
21 Q. Do you know whether Exhibit 10 was
22 utilized by anyone else to create a map of WCA-2A for
23 inclusion in the Everglades SWIM Plan?
24 A. Not for certain, no.
25 Q. In your judgment, would it be appropriate
231
1 to utilize Exhibit 10 for the creation of a vegetative
2 map showing the vegetation in existence in WCA-2A in
3 1987?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Why would it be appropriate?
6 A. A number of people have looked at this
7 map, taken it in the helicopter and flown with it. A
8 number of us have long term knowledge of the area, been
9 out there literally hundreds of times and know the area
10 well. And this was a good representation of that area
11 at that time.
12 Q. Who have you discussed Exhibit 10 with, in
13 which they indicated that it is a good representation
14 of the vegetation in WCA-2A as it existed in the spring
15 of '87?
16 A. I would say Steve Davis, Nancy Urban, Dave
17 Swift. Those I believe are the three major -- Dewey
18 Worth.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And you yourself believe it's a good
21 representation; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have all of those individuals spent a fair
24 amount of time in WCA-2A?
25 A. Yes.
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232
1 Q. About how many times have you visited
2 WCA-2A either on the ground or in a helicopter?
3 A. I would say four to 600 days, many of
4 those for one stretch period from when I officially was
5 hired at the District in 1981 to 1985. We went out
6 almost every week and spent overnight trips there three
7 days a week.
8 Q. About how many days did you spend in
9 WCA-2A during the spring of '87?
10 A. I can't recall that. I don't know. I'd
11 have to look go back and look.
12 Q. What would you look at?
13 A. Hopefully they kept records of our -- of
14 our field trips. I'm sure the County somewhere
15 probably did that.
16 Q. Can you estimate how many days you spent
17 in WCA-2A prior to the spring of 1987?
18 A. I would say that's basically most of time
19 was prior to 1987 as opposed to after.
20 Q. Most of your four to 600 days?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you estimate how much of those four to
23 600 days were spent on the ground or in an air boat as
24 opposed to in a helicopter?
25 A. These are highly speculative numbers. I
233
1 mean without records I'm really -- four to 600
2 hopefully, in that range. What percentage, I'd be
3 guessing.
4 Q. When you went into the field to verify the
5 vegetation for the creation of Exhibit 10, do you
6 recall whether you went into the field in an air boat
7 or in a helicopter?
8 A. Most of the time it was in a air boat.
9 Q. Did you keep any field notes from those
10 visits?
11 A. No, other than the report that was
12 produced for Dewey Worth for all the transects that we
13 had established in this area.
14 Q. Which report is that?
15 A. I turned it over yesterday. It's in the
16 green folder. It's the response of the drawdown study
17 response of the vegetation -- I can't recall the exact
18 name of it.
19 Q. Are you referencing Technical Publication
20 88-2 of March 1988, titled Environmental Response of
21 WCA-2A to Reduction in Regulation Schedule and Marsh
22 Drawdown?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where are your field notes reflected in
25 that report?
234
1 A. I don't think the field notes are actually
2 in the report. I think all the data that was used to
3 produce this is available in field notes. You'd have
4 talk to Dewey Worth about it, because he was the
5 primary author and he kept all that information.
6 Q. Did Dewey Worth accompany you on that
7 field trip to verify the vegetation in WCA-2A for the
8 creation of Exhibit 10?
9 A. Yes, on a few times, yes. I mean we
10 worked out there for four or five years together.
11 Q. Was he participating in the verification
12 of vegetation or was he simply along with you on the
13 trip?
14 A. I think he was just along on the trip.
15 And part -- I mean he knew about this map and that I
16 was working on it and he saw how things were moving
17 along as I was progressing and making the map. And
18 he'd have comments well, maybe this area doesn't, you
19 know, jive or look quite right and you need to work on
20 this and...
21 Q. When he made those kinds of statement, did
22 you make adjustments to Exhibit 10?
23 A. Again, this is going back a long time and
24 this is a very preliminary piece of work. I don't
25 recall, unless I go through my folder and start reading
235
1 through, how I actually produced this map other than
2 knowing I remember it was a supervised classification,
3 I used aerial photography and going out in the field to
4 ground truth. Other than that I don't remember any of
5 the details of the creation of this map.
6 Q. Did you ever speak with anyone familiar
7 with the vegetation in WCA-2A who felt Exhibit 10 was a
8 poor representation of the vegetation in WCA-2A in the
9 spring of '87?
10 A. No.
11 Q. In your judgment, is Exhibit 10 the best
12 reflection of vegetative conditions in WCA-2A in the
13 spring of '87 that exists today?
14 A. It's the best that's available, yes.
15 Q. You mentioned that you and Dewey Worth
16 worked on some transects in WCA-2A; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Where were those transects?
19 A. They were all over the area from north to
20 south, east to west.
21 Q. How were those transects developed?
22 A. You're going have to talk to Dewey Worth
23 about that.
24 Q. Where is Dewey Worth now?
25 A. Boise, Idaho.
236
1 Q. Can you be more specific?
2 A. More specific than Boise, Idaho?
3 Q. Yes. Do you know where he works?
4 A. Department of Environmental Quality.
5 Q. Do you know whether the transects were
6 ever surveyed?
7 A. I don't think they were. I would say that
8 there's -- they've been staked, you know, they're
9 still -- they're still there basically.
10 Q. When were the stakes put in place?
11 A. Back when we actually did our initial
12 biological survey.
13 Q. In which year was that?
14 A. What year?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. It was during a period of years from '81
17 to, I'd say, approximately '85.
18 Q. And those stakes remain today up to 10, 12
19 years later?
20 A. Some of them.
21 Q. Do all the stakes remain?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What have those transects been used for by
24 the South Florida Water Management District?
25 A. I don't think they have been used since
237
1 that report.
2 Q. That report is a reference to the
3 technical publication we just referenced?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were the stakes the method utilized to
6 locate the transects when you went into the field or
7 did you have some other mechanical means of locating
8 those transects?
9 A. They -- well, we wanted to know where the
10 beginning and ending part of a transect was each time
11 we went back exactly and that was only way to do that.
12 We know where all those areas are just from our
13 familiarity with Area 2, how to get there. It's just
14 that we wanted an exact beginning point, we ran our
15 transect.
16 Q. Would you then traverse along the
17 transects to the ending point?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How did you do that? Did you have
20 anything to assist you in staying on a straight course?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What?
23 A. Basically the transects were, I think the
24 longest one might have been a thousand feet, and just
25 tried to -- we biologists, you have a long tape
238
1 measure, you have a -- one pole to the other pole, you
2 got your straight line.
3 Q. Have you established the location of any
4 of those stakes in your GPS work?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Who else within the Water Management
7 District creates vegetative maps besides yourself?
8 A. Les Vilchek. I'd say Patti Sime.
9 Q. How do you spell her last name?
10 A. S I M E.
11 There might be others, but I'm not aware
12 of them.
13 Q. Is there any one department that has the
14 overall responsibilities for vegetative mapping within
15 the District?
16 A. I'd say no.
17 Q. There's no overall coordination of
18 vegetative mapping within the District?
19 A. I'd say no.
20 Q. Does Les Vilchek work in your department?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What about Patti Sime, where does she
23 work?
24 A. It's either up in Lower District Planning
25 or Upper District Planning.
239
1 Q. Has Patti Sime assisted you in the
2 creation of any vegetative maps?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know who was responsible for the
5 creation of the vegetative maps that were included in
6 the Everglades SWIM Plan?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Based on your experience in WCA-2A since
9 1981, have the cattail which are located south of the
10 10 structures advanced as a solid monoculture or have
11 they spread by mixing in with the native vegetation and
12 sawgrass?
13 A. My personal observance is they definitely
14 have spread. And the way I have observed is initially
15 they go into slough areas which are lower, more water,
16 and they don't have vegetation. Once they get into the
17 slough areas then they encroach on the surrounding
18 sawgrass ridges and eventually out compete the sawgrass
19 and eventually form a monoculture of cattail.
20 Q. Does that pattern of cattail spread apply
21 to all locations within WCA-2A that are cattail today
22 or is that just south of the S-10's?
23 A. I can't -- I'm not sure, because I don't
24 know all locations within the -- within Area 2. I mean
25 this is the things that I've observed. I think that
240
1 they'll come in, you know, in other areas where there's
2 no sloughs, you know. I've seen that happen too when
3 they just come in thick, the sloughs aren't there,
4 they'll invade a sawgrass ridge. I mean just if we
5 have a monotypic stand of cattail, a wall moving along,
6 and there's a sawgrass ridge in the way and there's no
7 slough in between then they'll encroach on that
8 sawgrass ridge also. But most -- most of my
9 observations, if there's a slough available they'll
10 move into the slough area first and then encroach on
11 the surrounding sawgrass ridges.
12 Q. Where within WCA 2A have you seen the
13 cattail encroachment occur first in the slough and then
14 progress into a sawgrass ridge?
15 A. A number of places south of the S-10
16 structures and all the way on the southern end in along
17 L-35 all along.
18 Q. Any other areas?
19 A. Those are the two that I -- that I have
20 noticed it.
21 Q. Where have you seen cattails come into an
22 area where there was no slough?
23 A. I would say up in the north, very
24 northeast section and in the very west section adjacent
25 to the S-7 inflow structure.
241
1 Q. When did you first observe cattails on the
2 southern end of WCA-2A along L-35?
3 A. I think there's always been some cattail
4 there since I was there. I wouldn't say they were
5 always there, but as far as back as I can remember
6 there was always some.
7 Q. How far back is that?
8 A. 1981. When I say some, I -- that means --
9 I mean a little bunch here and there. That's how I
10 remember it.
11 Q. When did you first observe cattail in the
12 very northeast section of WCA-2A?
13 A. Since 1981.
14 Q. When did you first observe cattail in the
15 west section adjacent to the S-7 inflow structure?
16 A. I would say it was during that period, '81
17 to '85, that I started -- I mean there was some there.
18 Q. There was some there in '81 when you first
19 went into the area?
20 A. I can't tell you the exact date when I
21 observed. I mean this is -- all numbers I'm giving you
22 are real approximate. I'd say somewhere between '81
23 and '85 for that area.
24 Q. For the two areas that you've testified
25 cattail was in existence when you first saw them, and
242
1 that's the southern end along the L-35 and the very
2 northeast section, is it fair to say that you don't
3 know how cattail first came into the area?
4 A. I think, you know, cattail has always been
5 in the Everglades at one point in time. It's --
6 they're a native species. It's just they're
7 proliferating, that is the problem.
8 Q. Why is cattail proliferation a problem in
9 your judgment?
10 A. It's out of balance. It takes away from
11 the biodiversity of the fauna, the benthic community,
12 algae communities. It disrupts, basically, the whole
13 food chain, which extend, basically, to higher trophic
14 levels.
15 Q. In what way does the proliferation of
16 cattail disrupt the whole food chain?
17 A. Well, basically, when you form a dense
18 stand of monotypic cattail and there's nothing else, it
19 tends to shade everything out, light reaching the
20 water, then you don't have algae production. You don't
21 have algae production, you don't have benthics. You
22 don't have benthics, fish don't utilize it as much.
23 Fish don't utilize it as much, birds don't utilize it
24 as much. Birds don't utilize it as much, alligators
25 don't tend to hang out in those areas. They depend on
243
1 birds a lot for their food, you know.
2 Q. Have you ever seen fish in a monoculture
3 of cattail?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have you ever seen birds in a monoculture
6 of cattail?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Have you ever seen wading birds in a
9 monoculture of cattail?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you ever seen wading birds feeding on
12 fish in a monoculture of cattail?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever seen alligators in a
15 monoculture of cattail?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you ever seen an alligator feeding on
18 birds in a monoculture of cattail?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You indicated previously that Exhibit 10
21 is a preliminary map. Was a final vegetative map of
22 the WCA-2A vegetation in the spring of '87 ever created
23 by someone else?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever calculate the acreages for
244
1 each of the vegetative classes shown on Exhibit 10?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where are those acreages?
4 A. They were given in a folder.
5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just for clarity, is it
6 one of the folders we marked yesterday, or is it
7 one that we have not as yet marked?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't
9 recall if that -- it was in one of those, no.
10 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
11 Q. I'll pass that over for the time being,
12 and perhaps we can find it on a break.
13 Other than Exhibit 10, have any other
14 vegetative maps of the WCA-2A been created prior to
15 your 1991 map?
16 A. Not that I'm aware of.
17 Q. Are you aware of all of the remote sensing
18 imagery that the District has of the WCAs, the
19 Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge and Everglades
20 National Park?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell me what images the District
23 has of those areas?
24 A. There's probably hundreds, and I've
25 provided that in a -- in a document. I'm not going to
245
1 try to guess all the dates that we have of all those
2 areas.
3 Q. In the documents you produced there is a
4 list of all the remotely sensed data which the District
5 has?
6 A. It's basically a listing of the database I
7 put together describing all the satellite imagery that
8 the District has in its possession.
9 Q. Was that a hard copy list, or was it
10 digitized?
11 A. It's a hard copy listing. I'm pretty sure
12 you got that folder.
13 Q. Do you know Mark Maffei?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who is he?
16 A. He's -- my description of him, he's a
17 scientist/bureaucrat for the National Park Service and
18 Water Conservation Area 1 specifically.
19 Q. Why do you call him a
20 scientist/bureaucrat?
21 A. He's -- because he's not a -- he looks at
22 everything scientifically, but he's involved in the a
23 lot of the bureaucratic processes that go on. I'm not
24 sure of all the details of what that means, but I know
25 that he's not strictly a field biologist.
246
1 Q. Have you ever spoken with him about remote
2 sensing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know whether he has ever done any
5 mapping of the Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge
6 using remote sensing?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No, he hasn't or no, you don't know?
9 A. No, I don't know.
10 Q. Has he ever asked you to assist him in
11 mapping WCA-1 using remote sensing?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you aware of any mapping effort for
14 WCA-1 that is ongoing?
15 A. Nope.
16 Q. Do you have any maps of the vegetation in
17 WCA-1?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where are those maps?
20 A. They're all in digital form.
21 Q. Are those included in the digitized
22 records that we have yet to receive?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many maps of WCA-1 do you have in
25 digitized form?
247
1 A. One.
2 Q. What year does it represent?
3 A. I believe it's 1987.
4 Q. How was that map created?
5 A. You'd have to ask John Richardson.
6 Q. Was it created by John Richardson?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Have you ever discussed with John
9 Richardson how he created that map?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is your recollection of his
12 methodology based on that conversation?
13 A. I don't recall the details. What I do
14 recall is I looked at the finished product and my
15 observances of Area 1, it looked, from what I know of
16 the area, it looked good.
17 Q. When did you look at that map?
18 A. I look at it periodically since it's been
19 produced.
20 Q. When did you first look at it?
21 A. Oh, probably late 1989, 1990.
22 Q. How did you look at it, was it hard copy
23 at that time?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What happened to that hard copy, do you
248
1 know?
2 A. The original hard copy was a promotional
3 thing that SPOT was using to showcase their satellite
4 imagery. That's what I saw. I have that in a folder.
5 I don't think you got that as it was just promotional
6 stuff by SPOT Corporation.
7 Q. What else is in that folder?
8 A. Other people's work that they've done
9 around the country using SPOT satellite imagery.
10 Q. Any other maps of the Everglades area?
11 A. No.
12 Q. When you say that map looked good based on
13 what you knew of WCA-1, how well did you know WCA-1?
14 A. I don't know it as good as Area 2, but
15 I've flown over it a number of times in the helicopter.
16 I know what the interior structure is like and what the
17 outer levee structure is like, and from my personal
18 observations I thought it was a good reflection of the
19 area.
20 Q. When you will say good, can you put a
21 percent accuracy on that or a range of percent
22 accuracy?
23 A. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that.
24 Q. How many maps of the Everglades area do
25 you have in digital form, do you know?
249
1 A. Can you repeat that question?
2 Q. How many maps of the Everglades area do
3 you have in digital form, do you know?
4 A. The way you asked the question, hundreds.
5 Q. What was it about the way that I asked the
6 question that made you answer --
7 A. You said just digital maps, that means
8 original satellite imagery.
9 Q. How many maps of vegetation in the
10 Everglades area do you have in digital form?
11 A. I'd say five or six.
12 Q. What areas are covered by those digital
13 maps?
14 A. Keep in mind some of these papers are just
15 preliminary, but 2, 1, Holeyland, Area 3, and ENR
16 project.
17 Q. And all of those vegetation maps will be
18 in digitized files that we have yet to obtain?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were all of those vegetation maps created
21 using remotely sensed data?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Going back to the map that you indicated
24 John Richardson created of WCA-1, was that created
25 utilizing SPOT imagery, do you know?
250
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These five or six vegetation maps that you
3 have in digital form, did you create all of them?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know how many vegetation maps you
6 have of WCA-2?
7 A. Two
8 Q. Are those the two we've already discussed
9 in this deposition?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How many digital maps of WCA-1 do you
12 have?
13 A. One.
14 Q. Is that the John Richardson map?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How many digital maps of the Holeyland do
17 you have? And that's -- excuse me, that's digital
18 vegetation maps of the Holeyland.
19 A. There's probably half a dozen.
20 Q. Did you create all of those vegetation
21 maps?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you recall the dates of those maps?
24 A. I can give you a span of time, 1980 to
25 current.
251
1 Q. Who created the earliest of those
2 vegetation maps, do you know?
3 A. I believe -- I believe it was the
4 Department of Transportation.
5 Q. Who created the subsequent maps, do you
6 know?
7 A. Game and Fish and South Florida Water
8 Management District.
9 Q. How many have been created by the South
10 Florida Water Management District?
11 A. One and one preliminary.
12 Q. The one that is in final form, what is the
13 date of that map, do you know?
14 A. We talked about it yesterday. It's
15 cattail work.
16 Q. That was the cattail work where you and
17 Sue Newman and Les Vilchek flew in a helicopter, all
18 estimated the coverage of cattail in an area, then you
19 averaged those estimates --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- is that correct? All right.
22 What about the preliminary map, who
23 created that?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. When was that created?
252
1 A. I would say it was 12 to 18 months ago.
2 Q. For what purpose was that created?
3 A. Basically I was just trying to look at
4 land patterns and do a preliminary look at the data,
5 see what I could pull out as far as vegetation, and I
6 sort of got pulled off to -- onto another project and
7 never finished.
8 Q. Was anyone assisting you in that mapping
9 effort?
10 A. Les Vilchek.
11 Q. When I get these digital maps, will the
12 digitized file indicate which of the maps are final and
13 which ones are preliminary?
14 A. No.
15 Q. I'd have to ask you which ones were
16 preliminary?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How far along were you in your vegetation
19 mapping effort 12 to 18 months ago for the Holeyland?
20 A. If I recall, I separated some things out,
21 but basically I wasn't looking to do a final product
22 with satellite imagery. I wanted to use that as an aid
23 for using aerial photography.
24 Q. What kind of aerial photography?
25 A. We went over this yesterday, but the
253
1 November, December NASA flight that was flown.
2 Q. I believe it was in regard to that prior
3 discussion in yesterday's deposition that you testified
4 that you believe using aerial photography would be more
5 accurate. Do you recall that testimony?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why do you believe aerial photography
8 would be more accurate than satellite imagery?
9 A. Well, this latest effort, if you look at
10 just the overall map accuracy, you have 81 percent for
11 this area, which is excellent for this particular work.
12 Using photography you can probably get up around 95
13 percent. It's a much more detailed and a longer effort
14 in producing, but more accurate. But -- never mind.
15 Q. In this deposition whenever you are
16 referencing aerial photography, I'm assuming you mean
17 color infrared aerial photography. Is that a correct
18 assumption?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Will you tell me if we start talking about
21 aerial photography where you're not referencing color
22 infrared?
23 A. All I use is color infrared.
24 (Mr. Green left the room.)
25
254
1 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
2 Q. Okay.
3 How much vegetation mapping have you
4 personally done using color infrared photography?
5 A. I would say right now we have a good
6 effort going on in the ENR project.
7 Q. When will that be complete?
8 A. It's an ongoing project for, from what I
9 hear, from now till eternity. I'm not told a dead drop
10 date.
11 Q. Are you intending to produce a final map
12 from that ongoing project?
13 A. There'll be a map produced every three
14 months, approximately.
15 Q. Do you know the purpose of creating a map
16 every three months?
17 A. To show a trend analysis of the vegetation
18 communities of 1.
19 Q. How many of those maps have been generated
20 to date?
21 A. None.
22 Q. When do you project the first map being
23 complete?
24 A. Within the next four weeks, three to four
25 weeks.
255
1 Q. Who is assisting you in that mapping
2 effort?
3 A. Les Vilchek.
4 Q. Going back to the digital maps that you
5 have, you indicated that you have some vegetation maps
6 for WCA-3; is that correct?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. How many do you have?
9 A. Again, it's same as the Holeyland area,
10 it's preliminary, and same -- it was used for the same
11 purposes using the NASA aerial photography, just
12 basically trying to find land patterns.
13 Q. Is there just one map, vegetation map of
14 WCA-3?
15 A. There's really -- at this point there's no
16 map, it's preliminary data.
17 Q. How many vegetation maps in digital form
18 do you have for the ENR project?
19 A. None.
20 Q. What other types of digital maps do you
21 have other than vegetation maps?
22 A. Boy, I mean does that include graphs
23 and --
24 Q. Let me be more specific. Do you have any
25 digital maps of the Everglades area that show
256
1 topography?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the
4 Everglades area that show soils?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the
7 Everglades area that show water quality?
8 A. Not that I recall. I'll take that back,
9 yes.
10 Q. What kind of water quality, surface water
11 or interstitial?
12 A. What is your definition of those two
13 terms?
14 Q. Well, why don't you tell me what kind of
15 water quality digital maps you have for the Everglades
16 area?
17 A. Basically I have all of John Richardson's
18 data that he did, and some of the things he did was, I
19 believe, water quality when he went out and collected
20 samples.
21 Q. Do you have any digital maps of the
22 Everglades area that show water depth?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are there any other digital maps of the
25 Everglades area similar to the types we've just
257
1 described that you have?
2 A. Not to my knowledge. That doesn't mean
3 there isn't out of all the time I've been out at the
4 District.
5 Q. What about a digital map of fire
6 locations, do you have any of those?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the digitized files that you will be
9 producing, will all of these digital maps be included?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are all of the digital maps that are for
12 not vegetation maps final maps or are there any -- are
13 there some preliminary maps in there as well?
14 A. I don't -- could you repeat that again?
15 Q. Okay.
16 When we talked about your digital
17 vegetation maps you indicated that some of them are
18 final, some of them are preliminary.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And that the digitized file will not
21 indicate which ones are final or preliminary, I'll have
22 to talk to you about which ones are. Do you remember
23 that testimony?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Now I'm asking you about these other
258
1 digital maps, the topographic maps, the soils, the
2 water quality, the water depths, and fire locations,
3 are some of those preliminary maps, do you know?
4 A. I think most of those are final.
5 Q. Do you know whether any of them are
6 preliminary?
7 A. I think those are mostly final. To the
8 best of my knowledge they're all final.
9 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
10 record and Mr. Green returned.)
11 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
12 Q. Who created topographic digital maps that
13 you'll be producing?
14 A. I created one.
15 Q. Are there any other topographic digital
16 maps that you'll be producing?
17 A. Not to my knowledge.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Who created the soil digital maps that
20 you'll be producing?
21 A. John Richardson.
22 Q. Do you know how many soil digital maps
23 you'll be producing?
24 A. I think that's just one.
25 Q. Do you know the date of that map?
259
1 A. It -- I think it was in the period of
2 around 1987-88.
3 Q. You indicated that the water quality
4 digital maps are all John Richardson's; is that
5 correct?
6 A. (Shakes head up and down.)
7 Q. Do you know how many maps there are?
8 A. No, there's many files.
9 Q. Do you know what time span they cover?
10 A. I think it's all around '87, 87-88.
11 Q. Do you know what area of coverage the
12 water quality maps are for?
13 A. Area 1.
14 Q. All of them?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What about the soils map, what area is
17 covered by that map?
18 A. Area 1.
19 Q. What about the topographic map that you
20 created, what area is covered by that?
21 A. Holeyland.
22 Q. When did you create that map?
23 A. I'd say approximately three months ago.
24 Q. For what purpose?
25 A. It's one of the parameters to be looked as
260
1 for the reason why cattail has expanded so rapidly
2 within that area.
3 Q. What methodology did you utilize to create
4 that topographic map?
5 A. I was provided information from Game and
6 Fish of 196 points evenly -- pretty evenly distributed
7 through out the area. I took that data and created a
8 TIN and then created a contour from that within
9 ARC/INFO.
10 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
11 record.)
12 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
13 Q. How many water depth digital maps will you
14 producing?
15 A. Well, if -- the way that I work, if you
16 know the elevations and you have water, you can produce
17 water depth maps basically if you know the bottom
18 contour and you know how deep it is. So maybe many. I
19 have, you know --
20 Q. When you say many, would that require the
21 merging of two databases to create a water depth map?
22 A. The one I will be providing is one by --
23 Game and Fish gave us.
24 Q. What was the area of coverage for that
25 map?
261
1 A. The Holeyland.
2 Q. What is the date of that map?
3 A. I would say sometime in 1993.
4 Q. Do you know why that water depth map for
5 the Holeyland was created?
6 A. I think they were concerned that the --
7 that we didn't have a good handle on the water depths
8 within that area. That's just one more parameter to
9 look at in trying to figure out why cattail established
10 so rapidly within that area.
11 Q. Do you know why the Game and Freshwater
12 Fish Commission felt the District doesn't have a good
13 handle on water depths in the area?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How many fire location digital maps will
16 be produced?
17 A. One.
18 Q. What is the area of coverage for that map?
19 A. Holeyland.
20 Q. When was that produced?
21 A. Basically it shows muck fires from 1990 to
22 present, I believe.
23 Q. Who created that map?
24 A. I guess I did.
25 Q. Where did you obtain the data to create
262
1 that map?
2 A. Game and Fish.
3 Q. You testified that you created a
4 topographic map of the Holeyland using the 196 points
5 of data given to you by the Game and Freshwater Fish
6 Commission. Did you make any attempt to ground truth
7 that topographic map?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know whether anyone has?
10 A. I -- I have, to a point, looking at an old
11 survey. It's not that old, but a survey that was done
12 in the Holeyland on ground survey, and I looked at
13 those numbers and -- to see if they were reasonable.
14 Q. What -- were you able to form a judgment
15 as to the accuracy of the topographic map that you
16 created?
17 A. Yeah, I think it's an excellent
18 representation of -- topographically of that area.
19 That's a lot of points to have work with in creating a
20 topographic map.
21 (Mr. Green left the room.)
22 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
23 Q. Could you estimate the percent accuracy of
24 that mapping effort?
25 A. No.
263
1 Q. How did you come into possession of all of
2 these digital maps that you've described?
3 A. All the digital maps that I've described?
4 Q. Yes. Or, in other words, are you the
5 District custodian for digital maps?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Who is the custodian for the digital maps?
8 A. Everyone at the District.
9 Q. So that there is no single entity that's
10 in control of all the digital maps at the District?
11 A. (No response.)
12 Q. Is there any index of all the digital maps
13 that exist at the District?
14 A. Not that I know of. That would be nice.
15 Q. Do you know whether any of the witnesses
16 testifying in this proceeding will be relying on any of
17 the digital maps that you have in your files?
18 A. Can you repeat that again?
19 Q. Do you know whether any of the witnesses
20 testifying in this proceeding will be relying on any of
21 the digitized maps from your files?
22 A. I'm not sure.
23 Q. Do you have any digital maps on soil
24 phosphorus in the Everglades area?
25 A. Yes.
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264
1 Q. How many of those do you have?
2 A. Well, two that I know of.
3 Q. Who created those maps?
4 A. John Richardson and --
5 Q. What -- oh, excuse me, were there other
6 authors?
7 A. No.
8 Q. John Richardson created both of those
9 digital maps?
10 A. No, John Richardson and John Jensen.
11 Q. What area of coverage is the John
12 Richardson soil phosphorus map?
13 A. Area 1.
14 Q. What area of coverage is the soil
15 phosphorus map created by John Jensen?
16 A. Area 2.
17 Q. Do you know the date of the John
18 Richardson Area 1 map?
19 A. I think it's '87, '88.
20 Q. Do you know the date of John Jensen Area 2
21 soil phosphorus map?
22 A. I believe it was '92 or '93 data.
23 Q. Where did John Jensen get that '92 or '93
24 soil phosphorus data, do you know?
25 A. Marguerite Koch.
265
1 Q. Do you know whether either of those maps
2 are preliminary in form or whether they're both final?
3 A. I think they're both final products.
4 Q. If the Water Management District was
5 coordinated with Mark Maffei on the creation of a WCA-1
6 map, who would be doing that coordination, do you know?
7 A. Can you say that again?
8 (Thereupon, Messrs. Fitzgerald and Soukup
9 joined the deposition.)
10 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
11 Q. If the District were coordinated with Mark
12 Maffei to create a WCA-1 map, who would be doing that
13 coordinating on behalf of the District, do you know?
14 A. I'm not sure.
15 Q. But you're not doing any such
16 coordination; is that correct?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I can't recall if I asked you this,
19 forgive me if I'm repeating myself.
20 Are you able to place any percentage of
21 accuracy on Exhibit 10?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are you able to place a range of
24 percentage for accuracy of Exhibit 10?
25 A. No.
266
1 (Mr. Green returned.)
2 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
3 Q. When I get the digital maps that you've
4 described, will the date of the data used to create
5 those maps be included in the digitized file?
6 A. The only way it might be included is if
7 it's printed on the map.
8 Q. On the hard copy map?
9 A. Or what you're viewing digitally on the
10 screen.
11 (Mr. Downing left.)
12 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
13 Q. Do you know whether all of the digital
14 maps will have a date on them?
15 A. I think a lot of them won't.
16 Q. Will there be any way to determine the
17 date of the data used to create those maps for which no
18 date is shown?
19 A. Probably not.
20 Q. Would you know the date of the data used
21 to create those maps?
22 A. The ones I produced.
23 Q. Do you know the date of the data used to
24 create the one preliminary map for WCA 3?
25 A. May 1992.
267
1 Q. Do you know the date of the data used to
2 create the one preliminary map of the Holeyland that
3 you created?
4 A. May 1992.
5 Q. Do you know the date of the data used for
6 John Richardson to create the WCA-1 map?
7 A. April 1987.
8 Q. For the two WCA-2 maps that you created, I
9 believe we've already discussed this in deposition, the
10 date of that data, haven't we?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay.
13 And you said there will be no digital maps
14 on the ENR project; is that correct?
15 A. No. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. How are the vegetation maps that are going
17 to be produced every three months for the ENR project
18 being created? What is the methodology you and Les
19 Vilchek are using?
20 A. They're being flown at two different
21 scales, one 6,000, one at 36,000. We're having
22 1:36,000 digitally scanned into the computer and
23 creating -- we're rectifying that imagery and using it
24 as -- and making a hard copy output and using it as a
25 base map on a zoom transfer scope -- zoom transfer
268
1 scope, it's a stereoscope. And we're actually looking
2 at the photography stereoscopically and drawing on a
3 Mylar overlay over the base map the boundaries of
4 signatures that we see. And we go out in the field and
5 we determine what those boundaries are on the ground.
6 Take that map, that base map once we have all the
7 ground truth information, and digitize it into ARC/INFO
8 to create a final map.
9 Q. How is the 1:6,000 aerial photography
10 used?
11 A. It's what we're actually using to
12 delineate what we're seeing in the area.
13 Q. So the stereoscopic analysis is done on
14 1:6,000?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who is doing the stereoscopic analysis?
17 A. Les Vilchek and myself.
18 Q. What training do you have in stereoscopic
19 analysis?
20 A. I have no training, but it's not that --
21 it's not that difficult of a task. I believe just
22 about anybody could do it.
23 Q. Is the stereoscopic analysis for the
24 purpose of identifying vegetation species?
25 A. Or mixed communities.
269
1 Q. You said that during the stereoscopic
2 analysis you draw boundaries on the map or on Mylar
3 over the base map; is that correct?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Are those the boundaries between two
6 signatures?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then when you go in the field, do you
9 ascertain what is within those boundaries or do you
10 simply verify what you thought you saw in the
11 stereoscopic analysis?
12 A. You ascertain what you believe that
13 signature to be. You go out in the field and you
14 ground truth it.
15 Q. Talk me about me a little bit about the
16 ground truthing. Do you do it in a helicopter or in an
17 air boat?
18 A. So far it's been air boat.
19 Q. How do you locate -- when you are on the
20 ground do you use GPS?
21 A. Nope.
22 Q. How do you locate where you are on the
23 ground?
24 A. At a 1:6,000 scale I could see something
25 probably size of that folder there, so I could go
270
1 pretty much anywhere I want in that area looking at
2 that photography, know exactly where I'm at.
3 Q. You could see something about 10 inches by
4 14 inches?
5 A. Well, let's say -- let's say 18 by 18.
6 That's being conservative.
7 Q. What kind of things do you see in the
8 1:6,000 that are 18 by 18 inches or larger that help
9 you position yourself on the ground?
10 A. I'm not looking for things that are 18 by
11 18. I'm just looking for general patterns. I'm
12 telling you that you can go -- 1:6,000, it's a real
13 luxury to work with. I can go anywhere I want in the
14 photography and know where I'm at, it's very simple.
15 Q. With what level of precision can you
16 locate yourself on the ground using 1:6,000 aerials?
17 A. If you mean from the point of view when
18 I'm looking at that photo I go to the signature and I
19 go there and standing on, looking at the photo, I'm
20 looking around, I'd say a hundred percent.
21 Q. Can you locate yourself within some number
22 of meters using that methodology?
23 A. Well, after you go back and you transfer
24 it to the base map you know within a certain number of
25 meters where you were.
271
1 Q. Explain that to me.
2 A. Well, when you see a raw photo out in the
3 field, it's not any real world map projection, it's
4 just a raw photo. So I go out in the field, I go to a
5 location, the signature polygon region that I'm
6 uncertain, I go there, we determine what it is, we mark
7 it, we go back. Now put it to the base map, and the
8 base map has been rectified so I can transfer what I'm
9 seeing on the photo on that base map if it's rectified.
10 I now have a location of where that area is at.
11 This is all state of the art
12 photogrammetric -- I'm not inventing the wheel here.
13 It's been used since 1920, 1900's. I mean it's there's
14 volumes and volumes of books written on it, I'm not
15 doing anything out of the ordinary here.
16 Q. How small of a signature area are you able
17 to map using that methodology?
18 A. Well, you know, it's possible to go down
19 to, I'd say, about 18 inches by 18 inches.
20 Q. Are you mapping to that level of accuracy
21 for the ENR project?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How small of an area are you trying to map
24 for the ENR project?
25 A. Our minimum mapping unit is 25 meters by
272
1 25 meters. That was where -- we're doing a little bit
2 more than that, but that was our established minimum
3 map unit.
4 Q. When you go out into the ENR to ground
5 truth these maps with Les Vilchek, describe for me what
6 you do.
7 A. Well, initially we create a bunch of
8 polygon regions within the color infrared 1:6,000 scale
9 photography. And we go out in the field, visit all
10 these sites, write down what we think it is, mark it on
11 the -- over on the Mylar, over the color infrared
12 photography and that's it. It's a fairly simple
13 process.
14 Q. Have you and Les Vilchek split up the
15 responsibilities for that ground truthing effort in any
16 way?
17 A. No, I think we're working on it together
18 pretty much.
19 Q. Do you split up the work or do you do
20 every step as a team?
21 A. We're doing all steps as a team.
22 MS. RAEPPLE: Why don't we take about a
23 five minute break.
24 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
25 record.)
273
1 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
2 Q. Is that the file?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. The whole thing?
5 A. (No response.)
6 Q. We need the whole thing to identify all of
7 the remotely sensed imagery that the District has?
8 That's fine.
9 A. Well, take that out.
10 (Thereupon, the document was marked
11 Rutchey Exb. No. 11 for Identification.)
12 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
13 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I show you this document
14 which has been marked as Exhibit 11. Can you identify
15 that document?
16 A. Yes, this is a database of imagery that's
17 available at the District that I put together.
18 Q. Is that the most current listing of all of
19 the remotely sensed data that the District has?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Who would have an up-to-date listing of
22 all the remotely sensed data in the possession of the
23 District?
24 A. I would.
25 Q. Do you have a more current listing in your
274
1 digitized files?
2 A. No.
3 Q. That document which is Exhibit 11, says at
4 the top it's as of January 25, '93 is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All of the remotely sensed data that the
7 District had as of that date are reflected on Exhibit
8 11; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many scenes of remotely sensed data,
11 approximately, has the District acquired since that
12 date?
13 A. I would say -- let me just look. 30 to
14 40.
15 Q. How could I identify what those 30 or 40
16 additional scenes are that have been acquired since the
17 date of Exhibit 11?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Who has possession of those 30 to 40
20 scenes?
21 A. Lower District Planning.
22 Q. Do you know why Lower District Planning
23 has those scenes?
24 A. Basically they go out and buy the whole
25 District every year, SPOT specific.
275
1 Q. By SPOT specific, do you mean from the
2 SPOT satellite?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know whether the Lower District
5 Planning s purchase of the entire District from SPOT is
6 all of the additional remotely sensed imagery that has
7 been acquired since Exhibit 11 was created?
8 A. It's the only imagery that I'm aware of.
9 Q. When referencing remotely sensed imagery,
10 are you referencing only satellite imagery; is that
11 your understanding of the term?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would that include color infrared?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is there a listing of all of the color
16 infrared aerial photography available in the District?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Who has possession of the color infrared
19 photography in the District's possession?
20 A. It's spread out throughout the District.
21 Q. Do you have some of that color infrared
22 photography in your files?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Has that been produced?
25 A. It's -- I've talked to our attorneys about
276
1 it, and I think they're going have to have you come.
2 There's cabinets and cabinets full of it. It would be
3 very expensive to reproduce.
4 Q. When did you have that discussion with
5 your attorneys about the cabinets of color infrared
6 photography?
7 A. It was Sharron Follins, and it was, I
8 would say, approximately the last -- mid last week.
9 Q. Do you know whether any of the color
10 infrared photography that is in your files will be
11 relied on by witnesses testifying in this proceeding?
12 A. I'm not sure.
13 Q. Have you made copies -- well, first of all
14 when someone within the District wants to utilize color
15 infrared photography from your files do you give them
16 the original or do you make copies for them?
17 A. No. We give them the original.
18 Q. In the last six months have you sent
19 original color infrared photography to anyone within
20 the District?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What about in the six months prior to
23 that?
24 A. No.
25 Yes, there was one. Boy.
277
1 Q. Who was that?
2 A. Somebody in Upper District Planning. I
3 don't recall the exact area.
4 Q. Do you recall what scene they requested?
5 A. It was an area, a photography -- it's
6 not -- it's -- I remember it was north of Lake
7 Okeechobee somewhere.
8 Q. In the last six months has anyone come to
9 review aerial photography from your files?
10 A. I think so. I'm not sure if it's
11 borderline, six months, yeah, somewhere around six
12 months ago.
13 Q. Who came around six months ago to review
14 color infrared photography from your files?
15 A. Steve Coughlin with Game and Fish.
16 Q. Do you know what photography he reviewed?
17 A. If I remember, it was Water Conservation
18 Area 3.
19 Q. Do you know for what purpose he was
20 reviewing that photography?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. In the period of time of six months to 12
23 months ago, did anyone come and review the color
24 infrared photography in your files?
25 A. No, I don't think so.
278
1 Q. In the documents that you've produced
2 there was included a resume. I'm going to mark that as
3 Exhibit 12.
4 (Thereupon, the document was marked
5 Rutchey Exb. No. 12 for Identification.)
6 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
7 Q. Is that a current resume?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It indicates that from about 1981 to 1986
10 you worked on the WCA-2A drawdown study with Dewey
11 Worth?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What does what drawdown study entail?
14 A. All that it detailed is written in a
15 report that was done by Dewey worth.
16 Q. Is that technical publication 88-2, dated
17 March 1988?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was your involvement in that study?
20 A. Basically I went out in the field with
21 Dewey and we collected the data together. I analyzed a
22 lot of the data. Basically a lot of graphs in the
23 final report are mine.
24 Q. What type of data did you collect as part
25 of that study?
279
1 A. Biological surveillance of vegetation.
2 Q. Do you know the purpose of collecting that
3 kind of data?
4 A. It was to -- there was a change in the
5 regulation schedule and we were monitoring the results
6 of that.
7 Q. When did that change in the regulation
8 schedule occur?
9 A. I don't recall the exact date. It's in --
10 it's in the report.
11 Q. Do you know what the water stage was
12 before the drawdown?
13 A. Again, it's in the report. There's
14 hydrographs showing throughout the project what the
15 hydrology was within the area.
16 Q. What about the water stage after the
17 drawdown, do you know what that was?
18 A. Not off top of my head, no.
19 Q. Would that also be shown in technical
20 publication 88-2?
21 A. I don't believe so.
22 Q. Where could I find data showing the water
23 stage after the drawdown study?
24 A. Well, if I had to go find it right now I'd
25 talk to Robb Startzman.
280
1 Q. Would you spell his last name, please?
2 A. S T A R T Z M A N.
3 Q. How did you collect the biological data
4 and conduct surveillance of vegetation?
5 A. Basically all the methods that are in that
6 paper. Basically we just set up transects in basically
7 three types of areas, slough, sawgrass ridges and tree
8 islands. And along the transect line, every so many
9 feet, a predetermined amount, we put out a transect, a
10 quadrat out to the side and we measure percent cover of
11 species that were within that coverage or presence or
12 absence. And sometimes we take out a biomass cutting,
13 bring it back to the lab and dry it out, and we took
14 soil cores. Everything's in that report.
15 Q. Did you create maps from that data
16 collection?
17 A. Just the graphical depictions that are
18 within that report.
19 Q. Were those transects ever surveyed?
20 A. Not my knowledge, no. I don't think so.
21 Q. Were those transects ever located within
22 any degree of precision on a map?
23 A. I wouldn't say so, no. It depends on your
24 definition of precision.
25 Q. How precisely have those transect
281
1 locations been recorded on a map?
2 A. Oh, I'd say they're probably pretty
3 accurate to about a mile, a mile or two.
4 Q. And those are maps shown in technical
5 publication 88-2?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you collected data as part of this
8 drawdown study, did you do it in an air boat?
9 A. Yes. And we used helicopters sometimes.
10 Q. What would a helicopter be used for?
11 A. When you couldn't get out there in an air
12 boat.
13 Q. Then you would go out in a helicopter and
14 land; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you collected the biological data and
17 surveillance of vegetation, did you keep field notes?
18 A. I didn't.
19 Q. Did you take any photographs?
20 A. Yes, there was photographs taken.
21 Q. Are those still available?
22 A. You'd have to talk to Dewey Worth. I have
23 some that were taken from helicopter.
24 Q. Would Dewey Worth have taken those photos
25 with him to Boise, Idaho?
282
1 A. He took a lot of stuff with him. You'd
2 have to ask Dewey Worth.
3 Q. Is it standard practice for the District
4 to allow original data to be taken by employees when
5 they leave the District, do you know?
6 A. I'm not sure.
7 Q. Do you know whether that happens?
8 A. I'm not sure. You know, I know Dewey
9 left. I'm not surely if he made duplicates. I'm not
10 surely of all the facts.
11 Q. Are you the custodian of Dewey Worth's
12 files now that he's no longer with the District?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Who has Dewey Worth's old files?
15 A. I think a number of people have some of
16 those files.
17 Q. Who are those people?
18 A. I'm not sure.
19 Q. Do you have any of Dewey's old
20 photographic files?
21 A. I have some, yes.
22 Q. Do you know whether you have the
23 photographs that were taken during your data collection
24 for the drawdown study?
25 A. Not without going through them.
283
1 Q. Have those photographs been produced?
2 A. No. They're, you know, slides at this
3 point. There's some photos too.
4 Q. Do you know why the photographs and slides
5 were not produced?
6 A. Well, I -- like I said, I talked to
7 Sharron. Basically the request that she gave me is
8 that you wanted a hard copy of every satellite image
9 that we ever acquired at the District. I told her that
10 would take me about a year and a half to complete. And
11 you wanted a duplication of the photography. And I
12 said that would cost many thousands, maybe tens of
13 thousand of dollars so maybe you should ask them if
14 they want to do that. I haven't heard anything since.
15 Q. When you used a helicopter to obtain the
16 biological sampling and reconnaissance of the
17 vegetation, you testified that that was when it was
18 difficult or impossible to use an air boat; is that
19 correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Would that have been in dry periods?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would that have included the 1985 drought
24 period?
25 A. It might have.
284
1 Q. Were you continuing to gather data in the
2 1985 time frame?
3 A. We were getting toward the end there of
4 collecting data.
5 Q. Will technical publication 88-2 indicate
6 the dates on which data was collected?
7 A. I believe it did.
8 Q. Would you please show me where that
9 occurs?
10 A. Here, this is -- it tells you -- you have
11 to read. I mean it's not all in one place. It tells
12 you year, and then it tells you the period and then
13 keep going on.
14 Q. Can you tell from this discussion in
15 technical publication 88-2 whether you were collecting
16 data during the 1985 drought period?
17 A. It doesn't appear so from reading that,
18 but then again, I don't remember the exact date of the
19 drought period of when it started.
20 Q. Um-hum.
21 What conclusions were drawn from the
22 drawdown study?
23 A. I'd like to say that Dewey is probably the
24 best person to ask these questions. What I got from it
25 was that the regulation schedule needed to be -- should
285
1 be readjusted, and I believe it was as a result of that
2 drawdown study.
3 Q. In what way did you believe that the
4 regulation schedule should be readjusted?
5 A. I think we showed that many of the tree
6 islands in the southern region were impacted from
7 hydrology, basically the -- basically the bigger trees
8 were dying out, or had died out. They were basically
9 what I would call remnant tree islands.
10 Q. In what way did you recommend the
11 regulation schedule be readjusted, further up or
12 further down?
13 A. Down.
14 Q. Do you know whether any follow-up studies
15 have been conducted in WCA-2A to determine whether the
16 regulation schedule should be readjusted again?
17 A. Not to my knowledge.
18 Q. Did the drawdown study result in any
19 conclusions about whether vegetative changes were
20 nutrient induced?
21 A. To my knowledge, no.
22 Q. Other than the tree islands dying out in
23 the south end of WCA-2A, did the drawdown study result
24 in any conclusions about hydroperiod induced changes to
25 vegetation?
286
1 A. I'd say yes.
2 Q. What were those conclusions?
3 A. Well, like I just previously stated, prior
4 to the study the water -- it was an impounded area and
5 we believe the water was too high, drowned out a lot of
6 bigger trees on the island.
7 Q. When you say the water was too high, are
8 you talking about during the '70's it was too high or
9 after the drawdown it was too high?
10 A. After, in the '70's.
11 Q. Perhaps I misunderstood your testimony. I
12 thought you had told me that as a result of the study
13 you and Dewey Worth recommended that the regulation
14 scheduled be readjusted. Was that readjustment after
15 the initial drawdown?
16 A. You know, I'm going to refer all these
17 questions to Dewey, because this was his project. And
18 it wasn't, you know, I was just more -- at that time it
19 was -- I was just a technician. And the answers I'm
20 giving you, I feel like a lot of them I just think you
21 should ask Dewey. It's his paper, I'm not going to try
22 to answer the questions for what he wrote.
23 Q. Did you not draw any personal conclusions
24 from those five years of work?
25 A. Yeah, I've already stated one thing that I
287
1 got out of it, which is basically I think the water was
2 kept at too high an elevation during the '70's and that
3 the regulation schedule needed to be readjusted to try
4 to bring some of these tree islands back.
5 Q. Did you draw any other conclusions about
6 vegetative changes as a result of hydroperiod, as
7 result of that work?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You testified that some of the graphics in
10 technical publication 88-2 were your own; is that
11 correct?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Could you tell me which of the graphics
14 you created?
15 A. I would say Figure 2, Figure 3, Figure 4,
16 Figure 5, Table 1, Figure 6, Figure 7, Figure 8, Figure
17 9, Figure 10, Figure 11, Figure 12, Figure 14, Figure
18 17, Figure 18, Appendix Figure 1, 2, 3.
19 Q. Figure 4 is a predrawdown dominant plant
20 community in WCA-2A. How did you create that figure?
21 A. Basically I'm going tell you the same
22 answer for all those. Dewey directed me to create this
23 graph. That's how I did it, so you have to ask Dewey
24 on why or how he got the data.
25 Q. When you created figure 4, data was given
288
1 to you by Dewey Worth; is that correct?
2 A. He basically said how he wanted the figure
3 to look like, yeah. The data was given to me by Dewey.
4 Q. Did he tell you where to draw the
5 boundaries between different vegetation types?
6 A. Yes. This is Dewey's work, that's why his
7 name is on the paper. I was just a technician at this
8 time. You're asking the wrong person.
9 Q. Then when you say you created these
10 figures you mean you put pen to paper?
11 A. Basically.
12 Q. But you did not analyze the data to create
13 the figures; is that correct?
14 A. I analyzed some of the data.
15 Q. But not for Figure 4?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know what the vegetation
18 communities in WCA-2A were in the predrawdown time
19 period?
20 A. I personally don't, no.
21 Q. In your summary it says, under the summary
22 of experience, I believe it's the last sentence, that
23 basically for the past six years you've been doing
24 detection of wetlands use GIS and image
25 processing/remote sensing applications; is that
289
1 correct?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Do you consider yourself an expert in
4 detection of wetlands using GIS and image
5 processing/remote sensing applications?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you keep up with the literature on
8 image processing and remote sensing applications?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In what way do you keep up with the
11 literature?
12 A. I read the Journal of Photogrammetric
13 Engineering and Remote Sensing, International Journal
14 of Remote Sensing, Remote Sensing of the Environment,
15 and there's another one, Geocarto, those are the major
16 ones that I --
17 Q. For how long have you been reading those
18 journals?
19 A. I would say since I started reading them,
20 around '87, '88.
21 Q. Do you also consider yourself to be an
22 expert in biology?
23 A. Expert, what's your definition of an
24 expert.
25 Q. Do you consider yourself to have special
290
1 knowledge of the area that would assist someone who
2 does not have that knowledge in understanding the area?
3 A. Which area?
4 Q. Well, biology.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 How do you define an expert?
8 A. Excuse me?
9 Q. Well, you told me you thought you were an
10 expert in --
11 A. I don't --
12 Q. -- detection of wetlands using GIS and
13 image processing/remote sensing applications.
14 A. I think I would -- somebody who's now at
15 level where they're publishing their work and they're
16 being accepted by their peers is approaching or is at
17 expert level.
18 Q. By accepted by peers, who are the peers
19 that you're referencing?
20 A. Well, when you publish, you know, a number
21 people read your manuscript. And they could be turned
22 down or accepted. They just don't take in it and put
23 it in the magazine or, you know, the journal.
24 Especially in the District it's even
25 tougher, because we have a whole order of process that
291
1 we go through to get it even out the door, before it
2 can even get to the journal. We start off, just within
3 our division, there's already half a dozen other
4 scientists who review your work and it goes outside of
5 the division to all departments in the building,
6 probably have another dozen people review your work.
7 It has to be signed off by your department director, by
8 the board, and then finally it can go outside the
9 District to a journal.
10 Q. Is that internal review process applied to
11 all journal publications by District employees?
12 A. I think so.
13 Q. That's before the document is submitted to
14 a journal for consideration?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was Exhibit 1 to this deposition subjected
17 to that internal review process?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who all reviewed Exhibit 1 prior to
20 publication within the District?
21 A. I'm not sure I'm going to recall all the
22 names, but Rick Alleman, Garth Redfield, Tom Fontaine,
23 Tony Federico, Pete Rhoads, Brent Moll. I think Steve
24 Davis. There's probably other people I'm not even
25 aware of. Maybe I don't remember all the names. Those
292
1 are the major ones I can remember.
2 Q. And then did you say the board has to
3 review and approve the publication as well?
4 A. Right. It goes before the board, and they
5 each get a copy. Whether they read it or not, I'm not
6 sure. And, you know, they have a lot of things on
7 their agenda. I doubt if they seriously read the whole
8 thing from cover to cover. But they have to give their
9 nod that it's okay.
10 Q. Were you in attendance when the board
11 approved Exhibit 1 for publication?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did they ask you any questions about it?
14 A. Nope.
15 Q. Did any of the other reviewers ask you any
16 questions or make comments about Exhibit 1?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you make any changes to Exhibit 1 in
19 reaction to those comments?
20 A. Nothing in regard to procedures. More
21 probably structure, the way it was structured.
22 Q. By structured, you mean editorial changes?
23 A. Right, like results should really be or
24 you have some results in the discussion or in the
25 conclusion, you should move those to results, something
293
1 like that.
2 Q. None of the internal reviewers suggested
3 substantive changes; is that correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Have you received the peer review comments
6 for Exhibit 1 from the journal reviewers?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were those comments produced?
9 A. I'm not -- they might have. I'm not even
10 sure I still have all those. I mean everybody who
11 reviews your paper, you know, once the paper is finally
12 accepted for publication I tend to throw that kind of
13 stuff away. I mean, I just don't save it. But I might
14 have kept those that were reviewed by the journal. I
15 think I did. But if I did you have them.
16 Q. Did you make any changes to Exhibit 1 as a
17 result of those peer review comments?
18 A. Again, it was -- they were favorable
19 reviews and basically it was structure again.
20 Q. Do you know who the reviewers were?
21 A. No, it's a blind.
22 Q. What about Exhibit 8, did that undergo the
23 internal review at the District?
24 A. Exhibit 8 being?
25 Q. It should be right there, it's the paper
294
1 written by John Jensen, you, Marguerite Koch --
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. -- and another individual.
4 A. That's his paper.
5 Q. You're listed as an author on that paper;
6 isn't that correct?
7 A. Yeah, but he's the primary author.
8 Q. Why didn't you submit Exhibit 8 for an
9 internal review under the District process?
10 A. It's basically his work and all I did was
11 provide my data set. He did all the work, it's -- he's
12 not -- I mean someone outside the District isn't going
13 to -- he's going to go his own -- I'm not going to say
14 you can't publish your work, you have to first give
15 people your paper. It's just not, you know, it's his
16 work. He's just using my data set to do it.
17 Q. Why are you listed as an author?
18 A. I would list somebody if I had gotten all
19 my data for my analysis from them I would list them as
20 an author, that's...
21 Q. Using your definition of expert do you
22 consider yourself as an expert in biology?
23 A. Again, I -- you tell me your definition
24 and I'll tell you if I think that I fit it.
25 Q. I'm asking for your definition of biology,
295
1 the same one that you used.
2 A. If an expert means that I know something
3 that someone else doesn't know about biology, yes, I'm
4 an expert.
5 Q. What about under your definition of expert
6 such as you used when you said you were an expert in
7 the detection of wetlands using GIS image processing
8 remote sensing application?
9 A. I would say that I'm not to the extent
10 that I am in remote sensing. I'm not at the same level
11 in biology.
12 Q. Have you ever published in the peer review
13 journals in biology?
14 A. Nope.
15 Q. What about ecology, are you an expert in
16 ecology?
17 A. Not to the same level as I am in remote
18 sensing.
19 Q. What about botany, are you an expert in
20 botany?
21 A. If botany means identification of plants
22 in the Everglades, yeah, I would consider myself an
23 expert.
24 Q. Have you ever published in peer review
25 journals on botany?
296
1 A. Nope.
2 Q. Zoology, are you an expert in zoology?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever attempted to interpret
5 historical wetland vegetation using image processing
6 and remote sensing applications?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever attempted to interpret
9 historical wetland vegetation using color infrared
10 aerial photography?
11 A. No.
12 Q. With which satellite platforms are you
13 familiar?
14 A. MSS, LandSat, LandSat TM, SPOT, and I have
15 looked at low altitude multispectral, mainly Daedulus
16 and Cassi, Cassi system. Boy, I got, I think AVHRR.
17 I've looked at some weather satellites, that's about
18 it.
19 Q. Which of those satellite platforms have
20 you obtained data from to create vegetative maps?
21 A. I'd say two.
22 Q. Which two?
23 A. LandSat TM and SPOT.
24 (Mr. Green left the room.)
25
297
1 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
2 Q. Have you ever created a vegetative map
3 using LandSat MSS?
4 A. No.
5 Q. But you're familiar with LandSat MSS?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Have you ever used LandSat MSS data for
8 any purpose?
9 A. I used it basically when I first started
10 using image processing on the I2S system as preliminary
11 data sets just to learn the system and sort of like my
12 training data set.
13 Q. Did you create any training vegetation
14 maps during that exercise?
15 A. I think I made around -- with making
16 vegetation maps and in urban areas.
17 Q. Focusing on LandSat MSS, SPOT, and LandSat
18 thematic, can you tell me the relative strength and
19 weaknesses of each of those platforms?
20 A. MSS is four bands, SPOT is three band,
21 thematic mapper is seven bands. MSS probably, for
22 trying to derive information for classifying land
23 features, is probably the worst, it's resolution is 79
24 meters per 79 meters.
25 LandSat TM and SPOT are almost, I almost
298
1 consider on the same level. They each have their pros
2 and cons. SPOT only has three band and doesn't cover
3 quite the wave band length that LandSat has. However
4 the resolution is 20 meters for the multispectral, and
5 10 meters for the panchromatic. LandSat, on the other
6 hand, had a -- covers a larger wave band length of
7 information, wave band length of information, but the
8 resolution is 30 meters. And there is no panchromatic
9 data to go along with that. And it also has one other
10 thing, it has a thermal band and some play around with
11 that.
12 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as the next
13 exhibit.
14 (Thereupon, the document was marked
15 Rutchey Exb. No. 13 for Identification.)
16 (Mr. Kobelinski left the room.)
17 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
18 Q. I'm showing you now a document marked as
19 Exhibit 12, which is a memorandum to the files dated
20 November 5, 1990 written by you regarding vegetation
21 mapping using satellite imagery analysis.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Excuse me, what, was the
23 exhibit number on the resume?
24 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
25 record.)
299
1 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
2 Q. Do you recall this memorandum?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. For what purpose did you prepare this
5 memorandum?
6 A. I'll going to have to read it.
7 I think it was just a summary of where we
8 were at the District in regards to satellite imagery
9 analysis.
10 (Thereupon, Mr. Green returned.)
11 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
12 Q. Is the method for satellite imagery
13 analysis described in this memo one that you've used?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you still use this methodology?
16 A. Currently I'm moving towards aerial
17 photography.
18 Q. Aerial photography for vegetation mapping
19 rather than satellite imagery?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why is that?
22 A. It's more accurate in my opinion.
23 Q. What is the basis for that opinion?
24 A. Well, my overall map accuracy was
25 approximately 81 percent, which was excellent for this
300
1 type of work. I mean if you look at the literature you
2 can see that within aerial photography, depending on
3 the scale that you obtain, you can get to the 95
4 percent level. There's two differences. Satellite
5 imagery, it's totally objective, which means that I can
6 give you original digital imagery, you should be able
7 to reproduce exactly what I have given you through my
8 methods and check everything. Whereas, if I create a
9 map from aerial photography, it's totally subjective.
10 So either way you can't win in this deal. It's going
11 to be challenged because you're going to, you know,
12 it's just the way it is. But as a final map product
13 it's been shown, and it's in the literature, that
14 aerial photography is -- you can produce a more
15 accurate end product probably at the 95 percent level.
16 Q. When you create a vegetation map using
17 color infrared aerial photography, is it necessary to
18 conduct ground truthing to get that 95 percent
19 accuracy?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What level of accuracy can you achieve
22 utilizing color infrared aerial photography without
23 ground truthing, do you know?
24 A. No, I wouldn't attempt to do that.
25 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether
301
1 historical aerial photography, color infrared aerial
2 photography, would be superior to satellite imagery to
3 create historical vegetation maps?
4 A. In that respect I would almost have to go
5 to -- with satellite imagery, if you want to go back in
6 time.
7 Q. Why is that?
8 A. Because I have no way to derive the
9 information from aerial photography from the past
10 because I have no ground truth information. But if I
11 have a current scene that's already been done and it's
12 accurate, I can use the information from that the
13 statistical information and go back to past scenes and
14 create vegetation maps or maps depicting representation
15 of the earth's features.
16 Q. Returning to Exhibit 13, on the second
17 page, on the fourth full paragraph, and the last
18 sentence, it says the amount of field verification and
19 resolution of color infrared photography directly
20 correspond to the amount of spectral separability of
21 unique Class 1, can be discerned within an image.
22 Do you know how much spectral separability
23 there is between sawgrass and cattail?
24 A. You're having to -- I don't know how to
25 answer that question. Ask it a different way or -- I
302
1 don't understand the question.
2 Q. Do you agree that sawgrass and cattail are
3 unique classes of vegetation?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Do you agree that classes of vegetation
7 have some degree of spectral separability?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is that why you can discern differences
10 between those vegetation classes on color infrared
11 aerial photography?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Can the amount or degree of spectral
15 separability between unique classes of vegetation be
16 quantified?
17 A. It might, but it's not my field of
18 expertise and I don't know how to do it. Not -- not
19 putting a percentage number on it or ....
20 Q. Have you ever attempted to differentiate
21 between sawgrass and cattail by using color infrared
22 aerial photography?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you been successful in
25 differentiating between sawgrass and cattail using
303
1 color infrared aerial photography?
2 A. Yes, I believe I have. It's pretty --
3 it's really obvious if you have good photography.
4 Q. Why is it obvious?
5 A. It's totally two different signatures. I
6 mean, it's clear as day when you're looking at it.
7 Q. In what way are they different signatures
8 on color infrared photography between sawgrass and
9 cattail?
10 A. To me it's almost like this one particular
11 data set, it's -- it's like looking at black and white.
12 I mean it's -- it's...
13 Q. Can you describe what the sawgrass
14 signature looks like on color infrared photography?
15 A. No, it's just a different -- it's just
16 different from other things that -- other vegetation
17 types, different color.
18 Q. Can you tell me a color it appears?
19 A. Well, it's going depend on the emulsion
20 process of the photography that you're obtaining it
21 from.
22 Q. When you look at color infrared
23 photography in an attempt to differentiate between
24 sawgrass and cattail, do the signatures for these two
25 vegetative communities appear as two distinct colors or
304
1 are they shades of the same color?
2 A. I would say they are shades of the same
3 color.
4 Q. Is the spectral separability of sawgrass
5 and cattail through color infrared aerial photography
6 better during certain periods of year than others?
7 A. I think so.
8 Q. During what period is spectral
9 separability between sawgrass and cattail the best on
10 color infrared aerial photography?
11 A. It's going to depend -- I answered this
12 yesterday, but I'll answer it again.
13 It's going to depend on what the previous
14 conditions of the winter was, if there hasn't been any
15 real hard freeze. I think as early as mid to late
16 March to as late as September, November, is the best
17 time to acquire, with the optimum being probably spring
18 to summer.
19 Q. Have you ever conducted a study to
20 determine that the spring and summer are the optimum
21 period of the year to obtain the best spectral
22 separability between sawgrass and cattail on color
23 infrared aerial photography?
24 A. No, it's just my personal observance and
25 knowing that in the winter things tend to brown out and
305
1 look all the same or they just die out altogether.
2 Q. Have you ever attempted to create a
3 vegetative map from color infrared aerial photography
4 in which you differentiated between sawgrass and
5 cattail when the photography was taken in the winter
6 months?
7 A. No. I don't recall ever -- we don't
8 hardly ever obtain photography during the winter
9 months.
10 Q. Have you ever attempted to create a
11 vegetative map of sawgrass and cattail using color
12 infrared aerial photography that was taken in the fall?
13 A. No, but I mean both -- the two maps I've
14 produced were produced in April and August.
15 Q. Are those the two maps that we've
16 discussed in deposition that you created from SPOT
17 imagery?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How was color infrared photography
20 utilized in creation of those maps?
21 A. It was just used as a -- as an aid
22 basically.
23 Q. In what way was it used as an aid?
24 A. This was already asked and answered, but
25 in this particular map that's what I used it for, the
306
1 color infrared data set as my ground truthing
2 mechanism. I also had one available for this effort.
3 It didn't come into play as much as this effort, but we
4 did see things like the periphyton problem in the
5 southern region within there with aerial photography.
6 Q. That's not going to be real clear on the
7 record. The first map you referenced was to Exhibit
8 10; is that correct?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And the second map you were referring to
11 was the one that appears in Exhibit 1; is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. If you used color infrared aerial
14 photography in the creation of the map that is included
15 in Exhibit 1, why were you not able to achieve the 95
16 percent accuracy that you've testified you can achieve
17 with color infrared aerial photography?
18 A. Because I didn't -- because this was
19 totally a digitally driven process, and I just used the
20 aerial photography as a side aid, I didn't use it to
21 drive the process.
22 Q. At the time you created the map that's
23 included in Exhibit 1, did you know that aerial
24 photography interpretation would result in a more
25 accurate map than the use of satellite imagery?
307
1 A. I would say, yes, I did know.
2 Q. Why did you use the satellite imagery then
3 to create the map?
4 A. Because photointerpretation takes a long
5 time and that's the whole beauty of remote sensing,
6 it's -- it's much faster, but I believe it's not as
7 accurate.
8 Q. How much longer would it have taken to
9 create the map in Exhibit 1 if you used color infrared
10 aerial photography rather than satellite imagery?
11 A. I'd be guessing. Till I do it I won't
12 know that answer.
13 Q. Can you give us an approximation?
14 A. I'd rather not. It would be longer.
15 Q. Can you give me a range of additional
16 time? In other words, can you say whether it would
17 take up to a year longer or two to three years longer
18 or six months longer?
19 A. I'd really -- I'd be guessing. Yeah,
20 okay, it would be maybe one to three years longer.
21 It's a guess. And I'd have to sit down, and it all
22 depends on the quality of the photography you have, the
23 scale of photography, there's a number of variables in
24 here so I don't have all variables, so it would be a
25 guess.
308
1 Q. Would there be any way to shorten the time
2 period that it would take to create a vegetative map
3 using color infrared aerial photography?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What would that be?
6 A. Have a bunch of people working on it, a
7 whole shop. And there's people in shops that do that.
8 Q. Are there independent contractors that do
9 that kind of work?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know how much it would cost to have
12 an independent contractor create a vegetative map of
13 WCA-2A using color infrared aerial photography?
14 A. I did get one quote for the conservation
15 areas from Geonex Corporation, which is probably the
16 biggest commercial map makers in different land
17 features in the world and they -- we gave them a
18 minimum mapping unit of basically an acre and they
19 basically said it would probably cost millions.
20 Q. Millions to do what?
21 A. Map the vegetation at that minimum mapping
22 unit of all the conservation areas. They didn't give
23 me the exact million dollar figure, but we got the idea
24 that it would be expensive.
25 Q. On the third page of Exhibit 13, in the
309
1 paragraph with a subtitle Method 3, the last sentence
2 it indicates there is still a problem of actually
3 acquiring a satellite image and color infrared
4 photography within an acceptable time frame. What is
5 an acceptable time frame?
6 A. Well, a lot of people would disagree with
7 what that actual time frame is, but I don't like to be
8 any further than six months to a year.
9 (Thereupon, Mr. Green left.)
10 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
11 Q. Why?
12 A. Things change. I'd rather have them both
13 on the same exact day, that's the optimum.
14 Q. Would that also be optimal to ground truth
15 satellite imagery, to be in the field on the same day
16 that the satellite imagery was taken?
17 A. Yes, but that's an almost impossible task.
18 Q. On the next page of Exhibit 13, which is
19 the fourth page, in the paragraph numbered 1, it states
20 that preliminary work has been started using a LandSat
21 scene of March 18, 1988 for vegetation mapping of the
22 Conservation Areas. Was that map ever created?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where is that map?
25 A. We found out that there was a problem in
310
1 the satellite image for that particular -- is that the
2 one -- wait, let me... I believe that satellite
3 imagery we found was corrupt and we sent it back and we
4 got refunded our money. There was a problem with the
5 line running down the middle of it and basically it
6 didn't -- it was unusable.
7 Q. Is that a reference to LandSat thematic
8 mapper in that paragraph?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The last sentence in that paragraph states
11 my conclusion is either SPOT or LandSat satellite data
12 will be acceptable for vegetation mapping with
13 preference going to LandSat because it is easier to
14 work with in an image analysis system. Is that still
15 your preference?
16 A. I would say no. I would say that since
17 then I've changed my opinion.
18 Q. What is your preference now?
19 A. Aerial photography.
20 Q. For the reasons we've already discussed?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Between SPOT and LandSat Thematic Mapper,
23 what would be your reference?
24 A. SPOT.
25 Q. Why is that?
311
1 A. It has better resolution.
2 Q. Any other reason?
3 A. That's the primary one.
4 Q. Is that the most important characteristic
5 of satellite imagery in trying to accurately create a
6 vegetation map?
7 A. No, I think there's two things. I think
8 resolution, and the amount of bands and the amount of
9 wave length, spectrum that's covered, optimumly
10 (phonetic) I'd like to have, you know, two meter data
11 with about 50 bands of information covering everywhere
12 from visible to, you know, infrared and that would be
13 optimum, but we're not there yet. We're getting there,
14 future satellites.
15 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
16 record and Mr. Kobelinski returned.)
17 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
18 Q. Which of those two satellites, SPOT and
19 LandSat Thematic Mapper has more bands in the spectral
20 range covered?
21 A. That's been asked and answered, but SPOT
22 has three, LandSat has seven, and one of those being a
23 thermal band.
24 Q. And you just testified that you'd prefer
25 to have better resolution and maximum coverage of the
312
1 spectral range; is that correct?
2 A. Yeah, that's what I would. It's not
3 available.
4 Q. But you can't have both with the available
5 satellites; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, I would say that's correct.
7 Q. So you have to chose between better
8 resolution or better coverage of the spectral range; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Um-hum.
11 Q. At this time you chose better resolution;
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why?
15 A. Because the Everglades is a highly complex
16 system, very heterogenous, and I think that resolution
17 benefits you, having it available. This is not just my
18 conclusion. This is many people's work, people who
19 published and reading in the literature. But this
20 argument is ongoing, which is better, which is better,
21 LandSat or SPOT. And I think it depends on the area
22 that you're working in. I think this work that I did
23 shows for SPOT what you can, the best that you can
24 obtain. Maybe someone should try LandSat now and see
25 if they can do better.
313
1 Q. Have you conducted a study to determine
2 whether LandSat Thematic Mapper or SPOT is better for
3 creating a vegetative map in the Everglades?
4 A. No, but the problem is that there's hardly
5 has been any LandSat scenes that have not been cloudy
6 for the Everglades, so the driving force for this
7 Exhibit 1 was basically availability of a scene with no
8 clouds.
9 (Thereupon, Mr. Green returned.)
10 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
11 Q. Other than the corrupt LandSat scene for
12 March 18, 1988, have you ever attempted to create a
13 vegetative map of the Everglades using LandSat Thematic
14 Mapper?
15 A. I think that was my only attempt with that
16 scene. In fact -- as a matter of fact -- well, I --
17 there's another one since then, but that was the last
18 scene that was acquired up till about 1993, '92.
19 Q. Given the high complexity and
20 heterogeneity of Everglades vegetation, is it your
21 opinion that the 79 by 79 meter pixel of the LandSat
22 MSS is sufficient to differentiate between the mixed
23 vegetation in that area?
24 A. Can you --
25 Q. Sure.
314
1 You're familiar with the LandSat MSS
2 resolution; is that correct?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. 79 by 79 meters?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. You've testified you prefer SPOT because
7 it has better --
8 A. Resolution.
9 Q. -- because of the 20 by 20 resolution that
10 it affords over the LandSat Thematic Mapper; isn't that
11 correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And you feel that resolution is more
14 important than spectral coverage; is that correct?
15 A. In my opinion, yes. Like I said, there's
16 other people who disagree and it really depends on what
17 area you're working in and what you're trying to
18 derive.
19 Q. Given the complexity of the vegetation in
20 the Everglades and the heterogeneity of that
21 vegetation, do you believe the 79 by 79 meter pixel
22 size for the LandSat MSS is sufficient to differentiate
23 between the vegetation in the Everglades area?
24 A. I've never tried it, so I -- you know, it
25 would be a nice test to acquire it and try it, see what
315
1 happens.
2 Q. Do you know whether anyone has obtained a
3 LandSat MSS scene and attempted to create a current
4 vegetation map within the Everglades area?
5 A. I'm not aware of it. The last work that I
6 know of, I believe it was Lance Gunderson did some work
7 in the Everglades National Park. I believe it was MSS
8 data. That was a while back.
9 Q. Do you know when that was?
10 A. I'll tell you in a minute.
11 No, it was LandSat TM.
12 Q. Then you're aware of no mapping of current
13 vegetation in the Everglades area using LandSat MSS; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Current, no.
16 Q. By current, I mean current as of the time
17 it was made?
18 A. Oh, well, just the work that Dr. Jensen
19 has just done.
20 Q. He used LandSat MSS to create historical
21 vegetation maps, didn't he?
22 A. Right, right.
23 Q. I'm asking whether you're aware of anyone
24 who attempted to create a current vegetation map of
25 Everglades vegetation using LandSat MSS?
316
1 A. No.
2 MS. RAEPPLE: It's a little bit after 12,
3 how about a lunch break at this point.
4 (Thereupon, a luncheon recess was taken
5 from 12:05 - 1:20 p.m..)
6 (Thereupon, the document was marked
7 Rutchey Exb. No. 14 for Identification.).
8 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
9 Q. I'm showing you a document now that's been
10 marked as Exhibit 14 to this deposition. It's a memo
11 dated March 30, 1990 from Mike Maceina to a
12 distribution list. Do you remember receiving this
13 memo?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you have any involvement with Michael
16 Maceina for the preparation of this memo?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was your involvement?
19 A. I basically consolidated two data sets for
20 the analysis.
21 Q. Which two data sets were they?
22 A. It contained, to the best of my
23 recollection, water quality phosphorus data, location
24 of sites where data was collected over time, distance
25 from the S-10 structures. That's all I remember that
317
1 was in there.
2 Q. Where did you get the data sets that you
3 consolidated for him?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry, can I have a
5 data on the memo?
6 MR. CESARANO: March 30, 1990.
7 THE WITNESS: I calculated the location of
8 the sites and their distance from the S-10's and
9 the water quality data came from the District
10 database at that time. That contained water
11 quality information, at that time I think it was
12 called DB Hydro.
13 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
14 Q. Do you have still have copies of the data
15 that you provided to Michael Maceina?
16 A. Yeah, you got a copy of it.
17 Q. How could I recognize it?
18 A. It's a big folder. It's about that big
19 and it has all the phosphorus data in there. It's
20 called phosphorus.
21 Q. I'll try to identify that on a break.
22 Was that data the best available at the
23 time it was given to Michael Maceina?
24 A. I'm not in a position to know.
25 Q. Do you know whether there's any QAQC of
318
1 data before it goes into the DB Hydro database?
2 A. I have very little to do with water
3 quality data. I -- basically I was asked to put this
4 together because I knew how to at least access it and I
5 could figure out, you know, the site locations and the
6 distance from the S-10 structures.
7 Q. Who asked you to put the data together for
8 him?
9 A. I believe it was Walt Dineen.
10 (Thereupon, Mr. Green left.)
11 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
12 Q. Have you been requested to put together
13 similar data subsequent to that time?
14 A. I -- yeah, I think at one time I had to
15 put something together for one of the board members.
16 That's in the folder also. I don't even recall what
17 that was, it was something to do with P data.
18 Q. Do you know whether the analysis reflected
19 in that memorandum has been updated?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Is the 1991 vegetative map the most
22 current vegetative map of the WCA-2A that's available
23 to your knowledge?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is there a more current map being created
319
1 at this time?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Is there a more current map in preliminary
4 form to your knowledge?
5 A. No.
6 Q. With regard to Exhibit 8 and the mapping
7 that is reflected in that paper, do you know whether
8 similar mapping had been done for Loxahatchee National
9 Wildlife Refuge or the Everglades National Park?
10 A. I don't know if it is.
11 Q. Who would know?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. How did John Jensen become involved in the
14 mapping of vegetation in WCA-2A?
15 A. I think he was hired as an expert by our
16 attorneys.
17 Q. Did anyone ever ask you if you would be
18 able to create historical vegetation maps for WCA-2A?
19 A. Yeah, to this day I'm asked to go back in
20 time and create maps. I just say sure, free up some of
21 my time and I'll do my best. Basically I'm all over
22 the map on projects and, yeah, I've been asked. But
23 that's basically no time.
24 MR. KOBELINSKI: All over the map, we
25 liked that.
320
1 MR. FITZGERALD: We liked that geographic
2 comment.
3 MR. DOWNING: It's remotely funny.
4 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
5 Q. Was your unavailability to create
6 historical vegetation map the reason John Jensen was
7 retained to create those maps?
8 A. Well, I'm sure if it had already been down
9 by me or somebody else we wouldn't have went to John
10 Jensen, but it just never happened.
11 Q. How did you become involved with John
12 Jensen?
13 A. My initial involvement with him was that
14 he's on -- we have an expert assistance pool that's a
15 listing of people who we consider experts in their --
16 in their field. It's compiled by Garth Redfield's
17 group. That's basically what his division does.
18 And they wanted someone to come in
19 independently and review our remote sensing activities
20 at the District. Also they wanted to have him review
21 John Richardson's work for the Lake Okeechobee
22 vegetation map project using SPOT satellite data. And
23 Dr. Jensen came down and sat with me for probably a
24 day. We took him out in the field one day, and we went
25 up to the University of Florida to see John Richardson
321
1 and go through his stuff for about a day. And he
2 compiled a report and sent it back and it was reviewed
3 by a number of people and that was my initial
4 involvement. Then I found out he was working on this
5 paper and he requested data and I submitted it to him.
6 Q. When did you first become involved with
7 John Jensen, when you spent that day with him?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When was that?
10 A. It's here in the memo somewhere. I don't
11 remember the exact date. There's actually a memo
12 written about it and what happened basically.
13 Q. When you spent that day with him what did
14 you do?
15 A. We went over all aspects of how we're
16 looking at vegetation using digital remotely sensed
17 data, and we even got into some photography. And he
18 just went through everything, you know, the steps that
19 we were using and he wrote a synopsis and made
20 recommendations based on what we told him.
21 Q. Was Jensen involved in the development of
22 the methodology that you used to create the map that's
23 reflected in Exhibit 1?
24 A. I think the only part that he actually
25 influenced was the cluster busting techniques that we
322
1 used to break out the periphyton and tree islands.
2 That were pretty much on his suggestion, we decided
3 that was the best way to attack that particular
4 problem.
5 Q. Since becoming involved with John Jensen
6 have you changed any of your methodology for
7 interpreting remotely sensed data?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Other than the one day that you spent with
10 John Jensen, how many times have you met with him?
11 A. Oh, maybe one other day he was down there.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. Again, I can't recall the exact -- the
14 exact day. I'm not even sure that day what he was
15 actually here for. He came by and saw me and he knew
16 other people in the District too, Brent Moll in the
17 Lower District Planning Department.
18 Q. Did you ever take John Jensen out into the
19 field in the Everglades?
20 A. I personally didn't. We flew a helicopter
21 from the District up to the University of Florida and I
22 guess he did see some Everglades, I don't know -- we
23 made the flight going from the District to the
24 University of Florida and we flew over the northern end
25 of Water Conservation Area 1, the EAA and Lake
323
1 Okeechobee and up the Kissimmee River.
2 (Thereupon, Mr. Kobelinski left and Mr.
3 Green returned.)
4 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
5 Q. Was the purpose of that helicopter flight
6 to view Everglades type vegetation?
7 A. I think that particular flight was more to
8 look at the Lake Okeechobee littoral zone that
9 particular flight.
10 Q. Have you been with John Jensen out into
11 the field in the Everglades subsequent to that date?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know whether he has spent any other
14 time in the Everglades?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. The subsequent day that you spent with
17 John Jensen, what was the purpose of that visit?
18 A. Which now? Which day?
19 Q. The second day that you spent with him.
20 A. Oh, that was basically to -- he met with
21 myself and Marguerite Koch and we provided him what
22 data we had for him that -- to do Exhibit 8.
23 Q. How was it determined what data you would
24 give John Jensen for the development of Exhibit 8?
25 A. It was his decision, so you'd have to ask
324
1 him.
2 Q. Did he review all of the data that the
3 District had available?
4 A. You're going to have to ask John Jensen.
5 Q. What data did you show John Jensen?
6 A. He already knew what he wanted at that
7 point. He was in contact with Brent Moll who was his
8 graduate student before he got involved, and so he had
9 a pretty good handle on what we already had, so he must
10 have got it from Brent Moll.
11 Q. So you had no involvement in deciding what
12 data to give John Jensen for the analysis reflected in
13 Exhibit 8; is that correct?
14 A. Not -- no. He chose what he wanted and
15 asked me. I mean he knew about my first work so he
16 knew exactly what he wanted.
17 Q. Did he ever indicate to you his assessment
18 of the quality of work reflected in Exhibit 1?
19 A. He thought it was a solid piece of work.
20 Very few people have the luxury of spending this kind
21 of money to come up with a map this accurate with all
22 the map accuracy assessment that we included. Most
23 people can't afford it.
24 Q. Did he ever suggest that you modify the
25 analysis in any way other than the cluster busting?
325
1 A. Not to my recollection, no. It was a
2 pretty favorable synopsis or write-up that he did of
3 our methods that we were using at the District.
4 Q. Other than the two days that you have
5 spent with John Jensen, have you had any other
6 communications with him?
7 A. Yeah, I've talked to him on the phone.
8 Q. How frequently have you spoken with him on
9 the telephone?
10 A. It's very occasionally. He would call me,
11 say the paper got accepted in PERS, let me know. I
12 think he sent me a copy of the letter that it got
13 accepted. I think one time he called me -- this was a
14 while back -- about, you know, this was the first time,
15 I guess, when we getting back in the lawsuit, he was
16 just concerned what it was about. I didn't know a
17 whole lot so I didn't have a lot to tell him. It's
18 just general -- that's about it, that's all I can
19 remember.
20 Q. Has he ever requested additional data to
21 the original set that he obtained from you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Precisely what data did you provide to
24 John Jensen?
25 A. The District provided all the satellite
326
1 imagery, I provided the 1991 satellite imagery and the
2 final classified map and 129 ground truth sites along
3 with the 241 ground truth map accuracy assessment
4 sites.
5 Q. When you say you provided him the 129
6 sites and 241 sites, what data related to those sites
7 did you provide to him?
8 A. All he wanted was an X Y location and what
9 we saw there.
10 Q. In what form did you provide him that
11 data?
12 A. It was already -- it's in the stack right
13 here.
14 Q. Can you identify for me in what form you
15 provided him that data?
16 A. Well, you just wanted to know form, it
17 was, you know, basically X Y and site location and
18 species.
19 Q. In which exhibit to this deposition is the
20 data that you gave John Jensen regarding the 129 sites
21 and 241 sites, reflected in which exhibit?
22 A. Exhibit 1 -- let me make sure. I believe
23 it's 1202232 to 1202236. That was one. I'm getting
24 these mixed up. Well, there's more if you want me to
25 sit here and go through. It's part of the record of
327
1 what was discussed yesterday.
2 Q. I'd like to know what the pages are for
3 other sites.
4 A. Okay. It may take a while. Okay.
5 And the other one is 1202882 to 1202884.
6 (Thereupon, Mr. Soukup left.)
7 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
8 Q. That last set of pages, what Exhibit do
9 they appear in?
10 A. Exhibit No. 2.
11 Q. And the first set of pages, what Exhibit
12 do they appear in?
13 A. Exhibit 4.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 Did you send that data to John Jensen in
16 hard copy as they exist in this record?
17 A. I sent it as hard copy and as digital.
18 Q. When you said the District sent John
19 Jensen all the satellite imagery, what did you mean by
20 that?
21 A. Well, I don't recall if I had originally
22 sent him the original satellite imagery or whether
23 Brent Moll actually sent it to him. It was either me
24 or him at that point. I don't remember.
25 Q. Did you send him all of the satellite
328
1 imagery that the District has or just the satellite
2 imagery that's reflected in Exhibit 8?
3 A. Just the five dates that are in Exhibit 8.
4 (Thereupon, Mr. Kobelinski returned.)
5 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
6 Q. That's the two SPOT scenes and three
7 LandSat MSS images?
8 A. I have to look at it again, I'm not sure
9 if that's exactly what it was.
10 Yeah, there's two MSS and two SPOT -- I
11 mean three MSS and two SPOT, I'm sorry.
12 Q. What about aerial photography, did you
13 provide him any color infrared aerial photography?
14 A. Nope.
15 Q. Do you know where Jensen obtained the
16 color infrared photography that's reflected in Exhibit
17 8?
18 A. I wasn't aware that there was.
19 Q. I'm referring to the first set of images
20 that appear after the generalized map of South Florida
21 at the back of the map.
22 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
23 record.)
24 THE WITNESS: That's satellite data. It's
25 just a color infrared composite of satellite
329
1 data.
2 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
3 Q. And you sent this to Jensen; is that
4 correct?
5 A. He didn't even get that clean, he got the
6 raw -- raw stuff. This is raw, but it's rectified.
7 Q. Do you know who rectified it?
8 A. I think he used, probably, my base map as
9 the -- in the rectification.
10 Q. Is that all the data you sent Jensen?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Have you read Exhibit 8?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you read and edit it before it was
15 submitted for consideration for publication?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you read it before it was submitted
18 for publication?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you suggest any changes to it?
21 A. Not much. I verbally talked to him on the
22 phone and they were more editorial structure, nothing
23 in the way he was doing it.
24 Q. Do you understand the analysis that Jensen
25 did as reflected in Exhibit 8?
330
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you ever attempted to do this type of
3 analysis?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What normalization targets did Jensen use
6 for Exhibit 8?
7 A. You're going to have to ask John Jensen.
8 Q. Did you have any involvement in the choice
9 of those normalization targets?
10 A. Nothing, nope.
11 Q. Did you discuss the normalization targets
12 with him when you talked to him about the paper after
13 you read it?
14 A. Nope.
15 Q. Did you provide him any data related to
16 normalization targets?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know how many normalization targets
19 were used?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You did not provide Jensen with the field
22 inspection sheets for the 129 and 241 sites that you
23 had visited?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you reviewed the historical
331
1 vegetation maps that are included in Exhibit 8?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have you made any determination as to
4 their accuracy in reflecting vegetative communities in
5 the time periods indicated?
6 A. No.
7 (Thereupon, Mr. Soukup returned.)
8 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
9 Q. Why have you not made any determination of
10 accuracy?
11 A. Because I've been working on other
12 projects and, you know, I'm just having -- I don't know
13 if I ever will. I've been given other priorities to
14 work on.
15 Q. Do you know whether anyone has reviewed
16 the vegetative maps reflected in Exhibit 8 to determine
17 whether they are accurate reflections of the vegetation
18 at the time shown?
19 A. Not that I'm aware of. A number of people
20 have seen that map now, it's a matter of -- it's in our
21 manuscript listing. Anybody can ask for and request
22 it, so I don't know what everybody is doing with it.
23 Q. Based on the extensive amount of time that
24 you spent in WCA-2A in the early '80's -- early and mid
25 '80's, would you be in a position to evaluate the
332
1 accuracy of the January 17, 1982 and April 4, 1987
2 vegetative maps reflected in Exhibit 8?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why not?
5 A. I didn't collect ground truth information
6 at that period of time.
7 Q. Is the collection of ground truth
8 information the only way to assess the accuracy of an
9 historical vegetation map?
10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. Have you made any attempt to compare the
12 map reflected in Exhibit 10 to any of the historical
13 maps created by John Jensen?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know if anyone else has?
16 A. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. Have you ever provided Exhibit 10 to John
18 Jensen?
19 A. He saw it in -- he realized that it was
20 just, at that time a, you know, a vegetation map that I
21 had done of that particular satellite imagery. I think
22 we concluded that it wasn't a publishable piece of work
23 just because we didn't go through the rigors that we
24 went with Exhibit 1.
25 Q. You indicated that a lot of people have
333
1 seen the maps reflected in Exhibit 8. Have any of
2 those people indicated to you that they agree with the
3 historical representation of vegetation in that
4 document?
5 A. I think Steve Davis is one that I can
6 remember.
7 Q. Has anyone who reviewed Exhibit 8
8 indicated to you that they disagreed with the
9 historical representation of vegetation in that
10 document?
11 A. No.
12 Q. When did Steve Davis indicate to you that
13 he agrees with the historical representation of
14 vegetation in WCA-2A in Exhibit 8?
15 A. I guess it was maybe six months ago or
16 seven months ago.
17 Q. Do you intend to use Jensen's method to
18 create historical maps for any other areas in the
19 Everglades?
20 A. I have no plans to do that right now, no.
21 Q. Do you know whether anyone else has such
22 plans?
23 A. Not that I know of.
24 Q. Do you know whether there are any plans to
25 update the analysis in Jensen's paper which is
334
1 reflected in Exhibit 8?
2 A. I'm not aware of it if it's happening.
3 Q. If you were asked to create an updated
4 vegetation map for WCA-2A for the '94 time frame, how
5 would you go about creating that map?
6 A. It's going to depend on a lot of variables
7 and in the request.
8 Q. Like what?
9 A. What's the minimum mapping unit, how fast
10 do you want it. It's just a process that has to be
11 digitally driven. That's about it that I could think
12 of.
13 Q. If you could use any process you wanted,
14 what would you use?
15 A. Right now I would tell you aerial
16 photography.
17 Q. That's because of the superior quality of
18 such maps in your judgment?
19 A. Right. After I complete a whole one then
20 I might change my mind, depending on how long it takes
21 and how much money it costs and...
22 Q. To your knowledge, has Jensen done any
23 work related to the Everglades other than that
24 reflected in Exhibit 8?
25 A. Yes, he has.
335
1 Q. What?
2 A. He did some mangrove work over in Marco
3 Island. He's also a world renowned expert in wetland
4 delineation using remotely sensed data. He's probably
5 the No. 1 guy, in my opinion, he's got over 150
6 publications --
7 Q. Do you know whether he did any wetland
8 mapping in the Everglades prior to the work reflected
9 in Exhibit 8?
10 A. Not that I'm aware, but then again, I
11 didn't read every one of those papers either.
12 Q. With regard to the work that you did which
13 is reflected in Exhibit 1, how did you establish the
14 exact location of the base station?
15 A. It was surveyed with conventional GPS
16 survey grade equipment.
17 Q. What were coordinates of the bay station?
18 A. I don't know off the top of my head.
19 Q. Are they reflected in any of the files
20 that you've produced?
21 A. They might be. I'm not sure. It's
22 available, it's out in the computer.
23 Q. Will it be in the digitized files that we
24 receive?
25 A. I'm not sure. Out of all of those files
336
1 I'm not sure if it's reflected there somewhere.
2 Q. Who could I obtain the coordinates of the
3 base station from?
4 A. Me.
5 Q. It's reflected somewhere in your files?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What base station GPS unit did you use?
8 A. It's a Trimble -- this was asked and
9 answered yesterday, but it was a Trimble PathFinder
10 community base station.
11 Q. How many channels does it have?
12 A. It had -- it was capable of tracking up to
13 eight satellites. Now it's capable of tracking -- it's
14 been upgraded and is currently is capable of tracking
15 up to 12 satellites.
16 Q. What amount of memory does that base
17 station unit have?
18 A. It doesn't -- the actual base station
19 doesn't have any memory so to speak, it's not a
20 computer.
21 Q. How is the data that the base station
22 collects reflected in output?
23 A. It -- there's a box and it's hooked to an
24 antenna, the antenna receives the signals from the
25 satellite, it goes to the box, the box goes to the
337
1 computer and the computer logs the data.
2 Q. How much memory is in the computer that
3 the base station unit is connected to?
4 A. I'm not sure exactly off the top of my
5 head, I'd say about 60 mg.
6 Q. Do you know the level of accuracy of the
7 base station unit?
8 A. The survey is accurate to less than a
9 centimeter.
10 Q. You testified yesterday, I believe, that
11 in locating your ground truth sites you were able to
12 come within three to seven meters of accuracy; is that
13 correct?
14 A. No.
15 Q. No. What were you able to locate within
16 three to seven meters of accuracy?
17 A. That's not what I said yesterday. What I
18 said is -- this has been asked and answered -- I go to
19 a site, navigate it based on the way point. The
20 military's been jamming the signals since the Gulf
21 crisis, it could be off up to a 100 meters, depending
22 on how they're scrambling the satellites. I take that
23 recovery unit data back to the District and correct it
24 differentially, correct it based on the community base
25 station logging the satellite information, and I
338
1 checked that by going to known survey markers out in
2 the field and collecting data there and bring it back
3 in. And my range during Exhibit 1's project life was
4 an accuracy of three to seven meters.
5 Q. I'm still not understanding. What was
6 accurate within three to seven meters?
7 A. My position on the ground.
8 Q. Let me make sure that I understand.
9 After you adjust the GPS coordinates back
10 at the District based on the information that you
11 obtain from the base station unit, the adjusted
12 coordinates are accurate within three to seven meters;
13 is that correct?
14 A. Differentially corrected data from the
15 field averaged together is accurate to three to seven
16 meters. Trimble claims it's even more, but my actual
17 field experience has shown me that it's three to seven.
18 Q. How do you know that it's accurate within
19 three to seven meters?
20 A. Because I went to known benchmarks and sat
21 on it with the unit. I know what the benchmark is, and
22 it has been surveyed with conventional survey grade
23 equipment and...
24 Q. When you went to a benchmark how long did
25 you sit on that benchmark?
339
1 A. Two to three minutes.
2 I've tried various things, just taking
3 single readings, averaging improves it somewhat. By
4 sitting on it longer you collect more data, so there's
5 a little scatter around three to seven meters, you get
6 on one point, but it improves it somewhat, not a whole
7 lot.
8 Q. How many readings do you get in two to
9 three minutes?
10 A. It's going to depend on your log interval
11 that you set on the GPS unit. You log it every 15
12 seconds, 10 or 12, you know, you can do it every second
13 if you want to.
14 Q. What log interval were you using during
15 the ground truthing for the work reflected in Exhibit
16 1?
17 A. This was asked and answered yesterday.
18 Basically in the helicopter, if I remember correctly,
19 it was either five or 10 seconds over a period of no
20 more than probably 30 seconds. You can't make
21 helicopter hover it one spot for more than 30 seconds
22 or their engines start overheating, you feel like
23 crashing. I don't feel like crashing.
24 When I'm in an air boat I usually do it
25 over a period of two to three minutes at 15 second
340
1 intervals.
2 Q. How many channels were on the GPS recovery
3 unit that you were utilizing in your field work?
4 A. It's a three channel unit.
5 Q. What amount of memory does the recovery
6 unit have?
7 A. I think it's 64 K.
8 Q. Do you know the accuracy of that unit?
9 A. It's been asked and answered.
10 Basically, if you take it out in the field
11 it can be off as much as a hundred meters, but if you
12 take the data back and differentially correct it. In
13 my analysis of using known benchmarks you can
14 differentially correct it to three to seven meters.
15 Q. When you were sitting on the benchmark,
16 what was the log interval that you were using?
17 A. That's been asked and answered.
18 THE WITNESS: Do I have to? I mean she
19 just asked.
20 MR. CESARANO: She did two minutes ago.
21 Every 15 seconds, right?
22 THE WITNESS: It's been asked and
23 answered.
24 MR. CESARANO: You know, really.
25 MS. RAEPPLE: Well, he's said that when he
341
1 was in a helicopter, his log interval was for
2 five -- every five to ten seconds for 30
3 seconds. When he's in an air boat it was every
4 15 seconds over a over two to three minute
5 period. But benchmarks, he sat on benchmarks.
6 I don't know, that -- that doesn't sound to me
7 like he was in a helicopter or air boat.
8 THE WITNESS: I also said that I tried
9 various time sequences, such as every second,
10 every five seconds, a number of different ways.
11 I also said that I took an average or I looked
12 at a single point. I said that there wasn't
13 much difference between the two and it improved
14 your accuracy somewhat.
15 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
16 Q. So you didn't use a uniform log interval
17 for the benchmarks; is that correct?
18 A. I think at the end basically I stuck with,
19 basically, taking data over two minutes and every 15
20 seconds, two to three minutes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Were all of the sites visited in the field
23 for the work reflected in Exhibit 1 located using GPS?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you believe you've identified each of
342
1 those locations within three to seven meters; isn't
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. During your field work were you in contact
5 with the base station?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Then am I correct in understanding that
8 you did not process the data for each site while you
9 were on-site, you waited until you returned to the
10 District?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. How many hours did you stay in the field
13 each day that you were doing the field work for Exhibit
14 1?
15 A. That could vary. If it rained I went back
16 to the truck and I went home. If it was a nice day I
17 stayed out all day.
18 Q. Are there any notes that would indicate
19 the days you were out and it started to rain, you came
20 back quickly and days you stayed out for a long time?
21 A. Basically every day that I went out
22 there's a log of the time along with the data of all
23 the 241 sites and the 129 sites. It shows you what
24 actual time I logged that data and the date.
25 Q. Okay.
343
1 You indicated that the base station had a
2 capacity of -- for tracking eight satellites. Do you
3 know how many satellites it was tracking when you were
4 doing this field work?
5 A. We didn't -- at that time we didn't have a
6 full ephemeris window. The system wasn't fully
7 deployed at the time. But it has to track up to fur
8 satellites and we -- now this was -- you have -- you
9 check an almanac, it tells your window of opportunity
10 during those periods that you go out in the field when
11 you have at least four satellites that you have good
12 geometry and you can get accurate 3-D information.
13 Q. How many satellites was the base station
14 tracking on the days that you did your field work, do
15 you know?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Does that data exist anywhere?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where?
20 A. It's in the digital files.
21 Q. Do you recall whether at least four
22 satellites were being tracked on days you did your
23 field work?
24 A. Well, they weren't -- if we weren't we
25 didn't use the data. It had to be. That was a
344
1 requirement that we made that of the system, always
2 check to ensure that at least four satellites were
3 being tracked, you had to have four.
4 Q. In the base station how many satellite
5 were being tracked by your recovery unit, do you know?
6 A. It has to be four, and it has to be the
7 same four.
8 MR. KOBELINSKI: May I ask a quick
9 question?
10 MS. RAEPPLE: (Indicating.)
11 MR. KOBELINSKI: You said something that
12 confused me. Given what you told me yesterday
13 about the recovery unit, you have -- you said it
14 had no memory, but I thought you said it
15 automatically was recording that. Maybe I just
16 misunderstood that
17 THE WITNESS: No, the community base
18 station doesn't have any memory.
19 MR. KOBELINSKI: I probably wasn't -- the
20 recovery unit itself was recording, it had
21 memory that you then downloaded?
22 THE WITNESS: It has memory built in the
23 recovery unit, right, that you can store data.
24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Right.
25
345
1 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
2 Q. What is the significance of the recovery
3 unit having three channels?
4 A. Well, some units have one channel, some
5 units have three, some have five, some have up to eight
6 now. Most people are -- really, in South Florida, you
7 don't need any more than three channels. Five channels
8 are -- well, three channels, it actually is in contact
9 simultaneously with three satellites, but actually it
10 can log up to six satellites. You can -- they're
11 looking at six satellites very fast, it switches
12 between the different satellites.
13 So in South Florida three satellites, if
14 you're out in the open and there's no overhead
15 vegetation, three satellites is just plenty enough.
16 There's six channel receivers. Five channel receivers
17 are helpful if you're in a tree canopy with just spaces
18 of lights that are getting through where the satellite
19 can reach the unit and it helps somewhat in that
20 respect, but, you know, you don't in South Florida --
21 in my opinion you don't need a six channel receiver.
22 Q. Am I corrected then in understanding that
23 a channel tracks a satellite at any one time?
24 A. Yeah, but it's quickly switching from one
25 to another very, very quickly.
346
1 Q. How quickly is very quickly?
2 A. Split seconds.
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Nanoseconds?
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. This is a proven
5 system. The military was shooting missiles down
6 chimney stacks. This is an accurate system,
7 very accurate.
8 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
9 Q. Did they use three channel recovery units
10 for that operation?
11 A. I have no idea. I'm sure it was ...
12 MR. FITZGERALD: We'll talk about that
13 later.
14 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
15 Q. What was the ephemeris window available on
16 the days you did your field work, do you know?
17 A. It's available. I don't -- it's digitally
18 it's available.
19 Q. Will that window be reflected in the
20 digitized files we have yet to receive?
21 A. I think so. It -- go ahead.
22 Q. What is an ephemeris window?
23 A. Do you know the definition of ephemeris?
24 Q. No.
25 A. It's a constellation of stars, in this
347
1 case the constellation of satellites.
2 Q. Okay.
3 What is the definition of ephemeris
4 window?
5 A. The window of opportunity where -- that
6 you have enough -- you have the right constellation of
7 satellites to acquire the data.
8 MR. GREEN: Have a good day everybody.
9 (Thereupon, Mr. Green left the
10 deposition.)
11 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
12 Q. During your field work, did you download
13 any data while you were out in the field from your
14 recovery unit?
15 A. Out in the field? Ask that question
16 again.
17 Q. During the days that you were doing field
18 work, did you download any data from your recovery unit
19 during the course of that day?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So you would collect data in your recovery
22 unit for the entire day that you were in the field and
23 download it at the end of the day when you returned to
24 the District, just once per day?
25 A. Yes.
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348
1 Q. Approximately how many sites would you
2 visit each of those days, if you were out for a full
3 day?
4 A. This was asked and answered yesterday.
5 If I went by air boat it could be as low
6 as 15. If I went by helicopter it could be possibly as
7 high as 35 to 40.
8 Q. I'm trying to understand the accuracy of
9 your map that is in Exhibit 1. And you testified
10 yesterday that you -- doing the rectification the root
11 mean square was .4 and you had accuracy to within eight
12 meters. Do you remember that testimony?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then you've indicated that you were
15 able to locate sites within three to seven meters of
16 accuracy; is that correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Am I correct then in understanding that
19 the map is actually accurate within 11 to 15 meters?
20 A. No. The map is accurate to eight meters
21 through the rectification process.
22 Q. Is the three to seven meter differential
23 not reflected in the mapping in any way?
24 A. Not -- not in the actual map itself, no.
25 Q. Why not?
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349
1 A. The three to seven is reflected in the
2 ground truth sites which we took into account, because
3 we looked at three by three pixels. That was covered.
4 That -- that altogether eight meters within the
5 rectification process and up to seven meters within the
6 error, the ground truth data or the error analysis
7 data, so that gives you 15 meters. I could -- possibly
8 my ground point could possibly be off by 15 meters, it
9 could be better than that too. It could be as good as
10 three meters -- six meters, so six to 15 meters.
11 Q. Have you ever attempted to create a map
12 that overlaid several data sets such as vegetation and
13 hydrology, soil phosphorus, those kind of data sets?
14 A. Not that I can remember.
15 Q. Do you know whether anyone at the District
16 or anyone working for the District has attempted to
17 create such maps?
18 A. Overlays, there's many possibilities. I
19 mean that's what GIS does. The -- we have 51 ARC/INFO
20 licenses distributed throughout the District and there
21 could be numerous people working on doing applications
22 like that. And I'm not sure who would be and who's
23 not.
24 Q. John Jensen created a 3-D map overlaying
25 two sets of data in Exhibit 8, didn't he?
350
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Have you ever seen a similar 3-D map
4 created by anyone else for one of the WCAs, Loxahatchee
5 or the Everglades National Park?
6 A. A 3-D of what? Say that question one more
7 time.
8 Q. Have you ever seen a similar map to this
9 3-D map created by John Jensen?
10 A. Similar to?
11 Q. For the any of WCAs, Loxahatchee or the
12 Everglades National Park?
13 A. I have seen a 3-D topographic map of the
14 Everglades of the Conservation Areas that was created a
15 while back.
16 Q. Is that the only one?
17 A. That I can recall.
18 Q. If someone wanted to create a map which
19 overlaid several data sets, would they come to you to
20 request that mapping?
21 A. It's possible, yeah. I mean I'm capable
22 of doing it.
23 Q. And no one's ever made that request of
24 you?
25 A. No.
351
1 Q. Who else might they go to?
2 A. Oh, there's many people capable at the
3 District. It's not a very hard feat if you know GIS,
4 like I said, and there's 51 floating licenses.
5 Probably in excess of a 150 people who know GIS at the
6 District.
7 Q. So anyone with access to the ARC/INFO
8 stations would be able to create such a map?
9 A. Or ERDAS, now called Imagine Software.
10 Q. Have you done any analysis to support or
11 establish a correlation between the vegetation changes
12 and either hydroperiod manipulation or nutrient influx?
13 A. Say that again.
14 Q. Have you done any analysis to support or
15 establishment a correlation between vegetation changes
16 and hydroperiod manipulation or nutrient influxes?
17 A. Yeah, I would say I have.
18 Q. What have you done?
19 A. Well, I think the work that I helped Dewey
20 work through was partly looking at hydroperiod. I
21 think the work we're doing in the Holeyland looking at
22 all parameters to figure why the cattail has expanded
23 so quickly. And I believe those were the two ones that
24 I can recall.
25 Q. Are you aware of such correlation analysis
352
1 being done by anyone else at the District?
2 A. Yeah, I'm not the only one working on this
3 project.
4 Q. Other than the people who are working with
5 you in the Holeyland and other than Dewey Worth, are
6 there other people at the District who are doing
7 correlation analysis to support or establish a
8 correlation between vegetation changes and either
9 hydroperiod manipulation or nutrient influxes?
10 A. Yes. This was asked and answered
11 yesterday, but there's a number people working on
12 transects within Area 2 to show those very same things.
13 Q. Any others?
14 A. Not as far as I know.
15 Q. When you met with John Jensen were any
16 federal government officials present?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Who was present with you at your meetings
19 with John Jensen?
20 A. Dewey Worth, Les Vilchek, Brent Moll, John
21 Richardson, I don't remember his first name, his last
22 name was Perlman, he's with the University of Florida,
23 and Marguerite Koch. That's all I can recall.
24 Q. What was Mr. or Dr. Perlman's function in
25 those meetings?
353
1 A. He was just giving Dr. Jensen an overview
2 of some of the classification schemes that they were
3 looking at, such as Florida Natural Areas Inventory for
4 doing a classification for the whole state. I can't
5 remember -- he was doing working with somebody, but I'm
6 not -- I can't remember. This is when we visited John
7 Richardson up at the University of Florida.
8 Q. Why was Jensen being briefed on the
9 classification schemes being used to classify the
10 entire state?
11 A. I think it was more of a -- just a general
12 thing. I think the main purpose he was there for was
13 to review John Richardson's techniques for developing
14 vegetation map using multispectral data sets in the
15 Lake Okeechobee littoral zone.
16 Q. Do you recall whether Jensen had any
17 criticisms of the way Dr. Richardson had been
18 proceeding with his mapping?
19 A. It's all -- you have the peer review here
20 somewhere. It was handed over. It's all within that.
21 MS. RAEPPLE: Why don't we take about a
22 five minute break at this point.
23 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
24 record.)
25
354
1 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
2 Q. Mr. Rutchey, before I have this document
3 marked, can you identify what that is so I can
4 determine whether it's worth making it an exhibit or
5 not?
6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Carolyn, did you ever
7 find the folder that had the phosphorus data he
8 prepared for Mike Maceina?
9 MS. RAEPPLE: No.
10 MR. CESARANO: Go ahead and answer.
11 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
12 Q. Go ahead, I'm listening.
13 A. To the best of my knowledge, this is like
14 the very raw input data into a program that converts
15 lat longs to the state planning coordinate system.
16 Sites that were worked up and given to Mike Maceina in
17 the memo that was previously handed out, Exhibit 14.
18 Q. Let's have it marked then as Exhibit 15.
19 (Thereupon, the document was marked
20 Rutchey Exb. No. 15 for Identification.)
21 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
22 Q. Do you know how the information shown in
23 Exhibit 15 was used by Mike Maceina?
24 A. It was -- first thing he did is rename the
25 whole descriptions, because these are other people's
355
1 names that they've used. I think some of these are
2 Dave Swift sites, Nancy Urban, Steve Davis. And he
3 named it so that he could better understand it in his
4 data analysis. Basically what he used -- this was the
5 location of the sites so he can determine how far or --
6 I really determined how far they were from the S-10
7 structures and provided them -- that information to him
8 in one of the data sets that I gave him.
9 Q. Can you identify this document?
10 A. I really don't recall where this came
11 from, but my best -- I don't even want to guess. I
12 don't recall it.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. Might not even be me.
15 Q. This is from your files. Since you don't
16 recall it I won't have it marked as an exhibit.
17 A. Okay.
18 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as Exhibit
19 16.
20 (Thereupon, the document was marked
21 Rutchey Exb. No. 16 for Identification.)
22 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
23 Q. Can you identify Exhibit 16?
24 A. This is the synopsis that, or the critique
25 or the summary of Dr. Jensen's day spent with me
356
1 reviewing our remote sensing efforts at the District
2 along with another separate review done of John
3 Richardson's remote sensing efforts for mapping
4 vegetation, littoral zone of Lake Okeechobee.
5 Q. Did Dr. Jensen meet with you for the
6 purpose of reviewing the remote sensing at the District
7 prior to obtaining the data that he utilized to create
8 Exhibit 8?
9 A. I believe it was prior to that but I'm not
10 positive on that, but I think it was.
11 Q. Okay.
12 And the first page of this Exhibit
13 indicates that he met with you during the week of
14 February 24th; is that accurate?
15 A. 25th through the 28th, yeah.
16 Q. On the page numbered 1, it's the second
17 page of this Exhibit 16, the last sentence in the first
18 paragraphs indicates that a final detailed report shall
19 be submitted. Is this Exhibit 16 that final detailed
20 report or is there a subsequent detailed report?
21 A. This is it.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Could you explain the format of this
24 report to me? That first paragraph on the second page
25 in the exhibit is in quotes. Is that quote from
357
1 another document, do you know?
2 A. Well, you'll have to ask Dr. Jensen why he
3 put it in quotes, I'm not sure.
4 Q. But you're confident that the report
5 referenced in that last sentence is this Exhibit 16; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Let me show you another document and ask
10 you if this is the phosphorus data that you submitted
11 to Mike Maceina.
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. RAEPPLE: I'd like to mark that is
14 that as Exhibit 17.
15 (Thereupon, the document was marked
16 Rutchey Exb. No. 17 for Identification.)
17 MS. RAEPPLE: Let's mark this as Exhibit
18 18.
19 (Thereupon, the document was marked
20 Rutchey Exb. No. 18 for Identification.)
21 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
22 Q. Can you identify Exhibit 18?
23 A. It's a memo that I wrote to Tony Federico.
24 Q. Whose handwriting is in the upper
25 right-hand corner of the first page of this Exhibit?
358
1 A. Tom Fontaine.
2 Q. Why does this memo with Tom Fontaine's
3 handwriting on it appear in your files?
4 A. Well, basically when people make comments
5 on memos, as a courtesy our secretary usually gives us
6 a copy and I usually file it, so that when I go back
7 and pull out an old memo that I need to look at to
8 remember something I can see any comments that someone
9 may have made.
10 Q. The handwriting indicates that you and Les
11 feel that digital approaches to mapping are not as
12 satisfactory as other techniques. Is that reference to
13 Les Les Vilchek?
14 A. Yeah, his name is on the memo.
15 Q. Did you voice the same concern to Tom
16 Fontaine that you advised here in this deposition with
17 regard to digital mapping?
18 A. I think this memo does that and it's
19 through him -- I don't -- I think I did it in a written
20 way.
21 Q. But my question, those concerns are the
22 same as the concerns that you voiced in deposition is
23 that correct?
24 A. (No response.)
25 Q. Your opinion has not changed since you
359
1 wrote this memo; is that correct?
2 A. Basically I think this memo -- let me read
3 this again. I would say I still agree with this memo,
4 yes.
5 Q. In the second paragraph on the first page
6 of this memo you reference there being better ways of
7 making accurate maps. Are those better ways the
8 interpretation of aerial photography that you've
9 described in this deposition?
10 A. Yes, in my opinion I think that is a
11 better way.
12 Q. In your opinion, is the interpretation of
13 aerial photography better than the interpretation of
14 satellite imagery for the purpose of differentiating
15 between cattail and sawgrass?
16 A. I think it will be more accurate, yes.
17 Q. On the second page in the first full
18 paragraph, you indicate that there are complicating
19 factors -- this is the second sentence in that first
20 full paragraph, "Complicating factors are mainly
21 variation of hydroperiod, periphyton (algal mats) and
22 mixed vegetation communities."
23 Could you go through each of these
24 complicating factors and explain to me why they are
25 complicating factors?
360
1 A. Hydroperiod and periphyton are sort of
2 linked. If we have high water and the periphyton is at
3 the bottom on any given day the satellite imagery is
4 going to look at that and look at it in a different way
5 than on a day where we have high water and periphyton
6 is floating. Those are complicating factors when you
7 actually start analyzing the data. I think I've
8 explained those pretty well in my paper and how they
9 complicate things.
10 And mixed vegetation communities have
11 always been a complicated issue on digitally remote
12 sensed data because everybody wants to know exactly how
13 everything is mixed and I -- that's a very hard number
14 to come up with. They want to know exactly how much
15 cattail is mixed with the sawgrass, and I don't think
16 you're going to derive exactly how much through
17 remotely sensed data. I think you can tell that that's
18 a mixed community, but the percentage of mixture is --
19 I would say at this point in time impossible, an
20 impossible task.
21 Q. Would it be possible to create more
22 classes of mixed communities than you created in the
23 mapping effort reflected in Exhibit 1?
24 A. Is more possible?
25 Q. Yes.
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361
1 A. Using what technique?
2 Q. Using the techniques that you used to
3 create the map in Exhibit 1.
4 A. Could I come up with more classes?
5 Q. More classes of mixed communities.
6 A. It might be possible.
7 Q. Did you attempt to come up with more
8 classes of mixed communities when you were creating the
9 map reflected in Exhibit 1?
10 A. No. I didn't attempt to, no.
11 Q. Why didn't you attempt to?
12 A. Basically, I let the ground truth
13 information determine the types of classes that would
14 be -- drive the process. I -- you know, as this is a
15 fairly expensive effort, going out and collecting the
16 data and 129 sites, I mean I guess I could have
17 collected 300 more sites and maybe a thousand more and
18 maybe I would got a little more, a bit more
19 information, but the point is how much more accuracy do
20 you -- do you gain for the dollar spent. It's all part
21 of the overall process. I mean if the map becomes five
22 percent more accurate is it worth doubling the price of
23 the effort? I don't think so.
24 Q. Is that what it would have cost to --
25 A. I don't know.
362
1 Q. -- create more classes of mixed
2 communities?
3 A. I don't know, I have no idea.
4 Q. In the next to last paragraph there's
5 mention of an inter-agency agreement with the National
6 Park Service to acquire multispectral scanner data and
7 color infrared photography of Florida south of Lake
8 Okeechobee. Has a map been created from that mission?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know whether there are plans to
11 create a map from that photography?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What are those plans?
14 A. There's a contract from -- through the
15 Park to Roy Welch at the University of Georgia, I
16 can't -- I don't know -- I don't think it's a signed
17 off deal yet, but Welch is charged with a -- creating a
18 map, at least of Everglades National Park and Big
19 Cypress and Biscayne National Preserve using this NASA
20 photography.
21 Q. What is your involvement in that mapping
22 effort?
23 A. As part of the process he's going to use
24 satellite imagery as his rectification base and I
25 believe the District is going to provide that to him as
363
1 long as he can work out the licensing agreement with
2 SPOT Image Corporation.
3 Q. Is that the extent of your involvement in
4 that mapping effort?
5 A. There's talk that Area 3, that we might
6 let him do Area 3 also through the District as a
7 separate contract or in cooperation through the Park,
8 or as an add-on through the Park.
9 Q. And if he maps WCA-3, the cost of that
10 mapping will be born by the District; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This other mapping is being funded by the
13 U.S. government?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When will Mr. Welch begin that mapping, do
16 you know?
17 A. I'm not -- I know he hasn't signed the
18 dotted line. This photography data set is the poorest
19 I've ever seen and he hasn't even looked at it yet. I
20 think when he looks at it he's going change his mind.
21 Maybe not, I don't know. But I think it's poor.
22 Q. What makes it poor?
23 A. I think what I'm hearing, it's the
24 emulsion process, it's very dark. It's the darkest
25 photography data set I've ever seen. I actually
364
1 haven't taken it out in the field and started looking
2 at differences in the vegetation. Well, that's ...
3 Q. Do you know whether there are plans to fly
4 another mission to obtain a better data set?
5 A. Not that I know of.
6 Q. Is that what would be required to improve
7 the photography?
8 A. Well, it's not to improve that
9 photography, in order to replace it, yeah.
10 Q. That's what I'm asking. I don't know
11 enough about photography to know if you could reprocess
12 the available photography and get a better data set.
13 A. I am not -- that might a possibility, also
14 it might go back to NASA and say this emulsion process,
15 you need make this stuff lighter, I'm not sure.
16 MS. RAEPPLE: Mark this please as 19.
17 (Thereupon, the document was marked
18 Rutchey Exb. No. 19 for Identification.)
19 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
20 Q. I'm now showing you a document which has
21 been marked as Exhibit 19, which is a memo from you to
22 Garth Redfield dated July 29, 1991. In the second
23 paragraph, the first sentence, it states that to obtain
24 an expected accuracy of 85 percent with an allowable
25 error of five percent the minimum number of points
365
1 necessary for reliable results is 204. Could you
2 explain to me why 204 points are needed?
3 A. This is all in the paper.
4 Q. The paper being a reference to Exhibit 1?
5 A. Exhibit 1.
6 It's -- okay. I'm going to read it. It
7 says number of points --
8 Q. Well, it's not necessary to read it if you
9 could show me where it is.
10 A. Page 5, last paragraph.
11 Q. All right.
12 At the bottom of Page 5 it says this is
13 based on the binomial probability formula. Are you
14 familiar with those formulas?
15 A. Not off the top of my head, but I have
16 that book, and if I sit down with it it will recollect
17 my memory.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Why were you unable to achieve this
20 mapping accuracy level of 85 percent?
21 A. I don't really think that's what it means.
22 It's just the number of points required in order to
23 test for that. Again, I'll have to go back and read
24 this. This section, this gets into statistics. I'm --
25 I don't know statistics right off the top of my head.
366
1 I know that I followed those procedures based on
2 experts in this field who have written and published
3 many papers, such as Congalton, Russell Congalton,
4 Rosenfield, Fitzpatrick, Michael Story, these are all
5 people who have done rigorous testing of map accuracy
6 standards for remotely sensed data. And I didn't do
7 anything out of ordinary. I based it all on previous
8 work. And then -- I think that is the best I could
9 possibly do.
10 Q. In the first sentence of the next
11 paragraph it states that for WCA-2A the total number of
12 points necessary for ground truthing and error analysis
13 is 470. Did you collect 470 points?
14 A. I collected 241 and 129, so whatever that
15 is.
16 Q. My math indicates it's 370.
17 A. That's fine.
18 I think this was a preliminary thing that
19 Garth had asked me to do to get an idea of how much
20 helicopter time I was going to need at that time.
21 Q. Why did you not collect the full 470
22 points?
23 A. I think at that time it was just a rough
24 estimate. I knew, you know, I needed 204. I went
25 beyond that. And, like I said, he just wanted a rough
367
1 estimate. So I always side with going with a little
2 more just in case.
3 Q. What was the basis for your estimate of
4 470 points being needed?
5 A. Well, personally what I think I did is I
6 knew that I needed 204 as a minimum and I needed a
7 hundred and -- well, if I had the 30 initial clusters I
8 needed -- I was going to try for five within each
9 cluster, that would be 150. I probably added a 120
10 because, you know, he's looking at it from the point
11 he's going to go to someone, say Ken needs this much
12 time in helicopter time. Well, I like to go on side of
13 getting more time than I really need just in case I
14 need it. And so that's -- I fudged a number basically.
15 Q. In the next to last sentence of that final
16 paragraph it states that we believe we are scarring the
17 land and stressing certain bird species. Was that
18 occurring in WCA-2A?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How were you scarring the land?
21 A. Well, basically Everglades has air boat
22 trails and they are well-used trails that people have
23 used over the years and there's a trail. But when you
24 head directly to a site that you're, you know your
25 ground truth site that you picked off a map, it might
368
1 not be along a trail. So if a line goes across the
2 land when you're doing that you're creating another --
3 well, I consider it a scar on the land even though
4 there's been a lot of research showing that air boats
5 really don't have a lot of effect on the Everglades
6 vegetation, that it comes back.
7 But I -- just when I'm flying over I can
8 see new trails that are being blazed. Sometimes when
9 you start a trail, the next boat comes along, oh, gee,
10 there's another, let's go, then you start another
11 trail. So I don't want to start any new trails. I
12 want to keep on the same trails that other people have
13 used over the years and I don't want to blaze trails
14 over -- all over Everglades until finally it's just a
15 crisscross of trails and so that's ...
16 Q. What about bird species, what bird species
17 were you stressing?
18 A. When you're going along in an air boat,
19 you're going cross country often on a boat trail, but I
20 know -- see a lot of birds are pretty smart, you know,
21 they know, figure out probably with a air boat it's a
22 main trail, they go off to seek a more secluded area.
23 But if you're picking a point and one of their secluded
24 areas happens to be right where they are perching or
25 nesting or whatever and you have to go there, you're
369
1 scaring them away. I consider that stressing the
2 birds.
3 Q. Were you making this point because you
4 wanted permission to use helicopters rather than air
5 boats for the ground truthing?
6 A. That's right. It's dangerous going
7 cross-country in a helicopter. I actually have flipped
8 a helicopter in the Everglades going cross-country, so
9 it's not -- it's not a safe thing.
10 Q. A helicopter or an air boat?
11 A. Excuse me, an air boat.
12 Q. Do helicopters not scar the land?
13 A. Well, they never land. They probably
14 stress birds also though. But, you know, probably my
15 major thing was our safety.
16 Q. And you felt you would be safer because a
17 helicopter could go cross-country without flipping
18 over?
19 A. Yeah. I'll add to that, on the helicopter
20 I think you get a better perspective of the ground that
21 you're looking at also for your ground truthing
22 techniques.
23 Q. Why is that?
24 A. Because you're up off the ground and, you
25 know, you can get higher than you can by standing on
370
1 top of the cage of the air boat. So most of our work
2 involved for ground truthing did involve a helicopter,
3 I'd say the majority of it.
4 Q. And in that ground truthing from a
5 helicopter, you didn't land at the site, just hovered;
6 is that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. How high you were when you hovered?
9 A. It could be 25 to 100 feet, in that range.
10 It could do anything. If you want to see a species on
11 the ground, he'd take you down two feet off the ground.
12 I mean it's depending on what you wanted to see.
13 MS. RAEPPLE: Would you mark this document
14 as Exhibit 20?
15 (Thereupon, the document was marked
16 Rutchey Exb. No. 20 for Identification.)
17 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
18 Q. In the files that you've produced, Mr.
19 Rutchey, there were several documents like this. They
20 appeared to be status reports. Is that an accurate
21 assessment?
22 A. Yeah. I wouldn't call this one a status
23 report, but...
24 Q. What is this document which has been
25 marked as Exhibit 20?
371
1 A. We used to have what we call program
2 documents or project documents, and I was asked to
3 update a project document and here they are and there's
4 my comments.
5 I was -- by reading this, I was pretty
6 optimistic.
7 Q. The section titled progress to date, do
8 those three paragraphs reflect work that was already
9 completed at this time this document with written?
10 A. No. 1 was. No. 2, the first sentence
11 was. The second sentence never really happened,
12 because basically the LandSat scene that I was
13 referring to ended up being corrupt as stated in No. 1.
14 And No. 3, it hasn't -- at that point we weren't even
15 started on it.
16 Q. What about the items listed under product,
17 are those products that had already been produced at
18 the time this memo was written?
19 A. Yes, for the third quarter. Fourth
20 quarter, No. 2 was -- that was never done. Again, it
21 was based on that one LandSat TM scene being corrupt
22 and having to be sent back.
23 Q. And a new scene was not obtained?
24 A. There hadn't -- recently I heard there was
25 another clean scene of LandSat data, but I haven't seen
372
1 it.
2 Q. When does the quarter, quarter of the
3 fiscal year 89-90 end, do you know?
4 A. Yes. Last September 30 would be the
5 fourth quarter.
6 Q. Fiscal year ends on September 30?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The map referenced in Paragraph 1, the
9 final supervised classification of LandSat satellite
10 scene for March 15, 1988 for Water Conservation Area 2
11 A, have we seen that map in this deposition?
12 A. It was never produced because if you look
13 at the progress to date in No. 1, it was going to be
14 taken from that satellite imagery. And this imagery
15 was sent back, it was corrupt. It was sent back to
16 SPOT. Oh -- oh, wait a second. This is something
17 different. Well, -- I never did it. And I never
18 produced anything like that, never produced that, no.
19 Q. Was a preliminary map created of WCA-2A
20 from this LandSat satellite scene from March 18, 1988?
21 A. No.
22 Q. On the next page of this exhibit, it's
23 Page 2 of the exhibit at the top right-hand corner it
24 says District-wide, Attachment B, in Paragraph 3-B, it
25 talks about the Holeyland and northeast WCA-3A, annual
373
1 vegetation map starting in 1989. Were those maps ever
2 created?
3 A. This is -- I -- you know, I know this was
4 all, you know, direction by Dewey Worth and we were, I
5 think some of the managers were very optimistic of what
6 we were going to obtain from satellite imagery. I
7 wrote up this report, and basically I've been all over
8 the map and working on a number of projects and pulled
9 off on this, do this for me and produce this map for me
10 and so I think you have a good handle on what I haven't
11 been working on.
12 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
13 record.)
14 (Thereupon, the document was marked
15 Rutchey Exb. No. 21 for Identification.)
16 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
17 Q. Mr. Rutchey, I'm now showing you an
18 exhibit which has been marked as Exhibit 21. It's a
19 memo from you to Walt Dineen dated October 30, 1989.
20 Do you recall the Everglades symposium referenced in
21 this memo?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the first paragraph of that memo you
24 make the point -- it's the last part of that
25 paragraph -- you make the point that it was reinforced
374
1 in your mind that research efforts such as was done for
2 the Everglades symposium are what is needed and
3 essential for sound management decisions to be made.
4 Is that still your feeling?
5 A. I think there was, at that symposium and
6 there's now a book coming out about it, there was a lot
7 of good papers presented and basically, yeah, what I
8 would like to see is management decisions that are good
9 for the Everglades based on good research and not so
10 much politics. In fact, I'd like politics to totally
11 stay out of it.
12 Q. Why is research needed for sound
13 management decisions?
14 A. Well, research tells you -- well, for
15 instance, you -- what I consider research, one, just on
16 research thing, you could look at vegetation over time
17 and if you see certain trends you might order a
18 hydroperiod based on what you're seeing. So that
19 research has helped you readjust hydroperiod such as
20 like on, let's say the north end of the Everglades
21 National Park.
22 You know, there's been people monitoring
23 or personal observations of vegetation in that area and
24 realize that it's not getting enough water. So
25 that's -- like that's what I consider, and that
375
1 personal observances isn't research, but it's someone
2 had been monitoring that with rigorous biological
3 ground control and wrote a report and submitted it to
4 management and then they could say hey, look, they're
5 showing that we need more water, let's give them more
6 water. But probably somehow when we started giving
7 more water somebody would sue us. That seems to be
8 what always happens whenever we want to do something
9 major. That's just the way it is down here.
10 Q. Do you feel that the decisions that are
11 being made with regards to the Everglades by the
12 District presently are being driven by politics rather
13 than research?
14 A. I can't answer that confidently. I hope
15 not. But my -- I think my view of life is most things
16 are driven by economics and, you know, the way I look
17 at it, Mother Nature doesn't have a way to generate
18 money. It takes a good steward of the land to come out
19 and battle the confrontations of people with money in
20 order to make things right.
21 Q. On the third page of this document, the
22 first full paragraph, there's a reference to rising sea
23 levels being a problem, specifically a problem for
24 water management. What problems were you referencing
25 in that paragraph, do you recall?
376
1 A. Well, basically if -- I mean we're talking
2 maybe in geologic time, if this trend continues
3 eventually Florida will be under water, that would be a
4 major water management problem.
5 Q. In the next paragraph at the bottom, you
6 talk about the desirability of a Melaleuca maintenance
7 program, and I saw a reference to that in several of
8 the documents that you produced to us. Has such a
9 Melaleuca maintenance program been instituted?
10 A. Yeah, there's actually a Melaleuca task
11 force to combat the problem of Melaleuca in South
12 Florida.
13 Q. Do you have any involvement with that
14 program?
15 A. I initially did. In fact, Dewey and I
16 were one of the first ones in -- at least in Area 2, to
17 actually go after this problem. We literally treated
18 thousand of tree islands out there. We came up with a
19 method of hack and squirt, which is still being used
20 because they haven't found anything else that works.
21 We actually figured out how much application of
22 herbicide to apply to a tree based on diameter. We
23 kept meticulous records. And I think a lot of people
24 are still using that data for the treatment of
25 Melaleuca. It's one of the worst, one of the major
377
1 economic problems facing South Florida. I think the
2 only long term solution going to be probably some time
3 of biological control. I don't think we're ever going
4 to win it using herbicides and they're -- well...
5 Q. In the next paragraph you talk about
6 Curtis Richardson's presentation. And you state all I
7 could think of when Curtis Richardson was speaking was
8 he is going to be a thorn in the District's side. What
9 is that a reference to?
10 A. Well, I -- if I was -- had the -- let's
11 say I did a study that showed that 2 plus 2 equals 4.
12 I wouldn't want to debate Curtis Richardson that that
13 was the truth, because somehow he could twist it or he
14 make me look stupid because he's a very good speaker.
15 And I wouldn't want to have to defend myself against
16 him. He has -- well, let's just say he's a very good
17 speaker, and convincing and sometimes, well, that's a
18 good, that's good about a person.
19 Q. Did you feel that the position he was
20 advocating or presenting at that symposium was a
21 equivalent to 2 plus 2 does not equal 4?
22 A. No. In fact, I even referenced a Curtis
23 Richardson work in my Exhibit 1. And I basically think
24 some of his reports have actually supported what I've
25 shown in my work documenting the spread of cattail and
378
1 in Conservation Area 2.
2 Q. Why were you concerned that he was going
3 to be a thorn in the District's side?
4 A. At the time there were rumors about him
5 and he was a biostitute and, you know, I probably
6 should ignore the rumors because I haven't personally
7 observed that about him. But having that prior
8 knowledge, and then seeing him speak, I said this guy
9 could, if he really is twisting the data, he's a really
10 good speaker and he gets up in front of a group of
11 people, he could -- he's good.
12 Q. Have you had occasion since you've wrote
13 this memo to review Curtis Richardson's work?
14 A. No, just that one piece of work that I've
15 referenced in my publication.
16 Q. Based on the work of Curtis Richardson
17 that you have reviewed, what is your assessment of his
18 work?
19 A. That, you know, that particular piece of
20 work I -- that's the only one that I recall that I've
21 seen. I thought it was -- I thought it was fair. I
22 thought he made an objective -- did an objective work
23 based on that one piece.
24 Q. Has anyone at the District indicated to
25 you that some of Curtis Richardson's work has not been
379
1 good quality?
2 A. Back then I think where I heard that was
3 maybe Walt Dineen. There again, I mean the way I view
4 life basically, and maybe this time I put too much into
5 what Walt was telling me, but I usually let -- when you
6 talk to me I usually let it go in one ear and out the
7 other if it's about another person. I usually try to
8 draw my own conclusions. And I think as far as that
9 one work of Curtis Richardson, I thought of it as a
10 fair piece of work. And it didn't seem like it was
11 being biased to me.
12 Q. What about since you wrote this memo?
13 Have you heard of anyone at the District who felt
14 Curtis Richardson's work was not accurate?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Has his reputation around the District
17 improved then?
18 MR. CESARANO: Well, do you know what his
19 reputation around the District is? I think that
20 you need a foundation.
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
22 MS. RAEPPLE: I'll withdraw the question.
23 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
24 record.)
25
380
1 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
2 Q. On the last page of this exhibit, the last
3 sentence in the first partial paragraph, talks about
4 there having been growth that's already occurred in the
5 east Everglades and it's too late to do anything about
6 it, so put a levee system around those people to afford
7 them protection.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Was that your opinion or was that the
10 opinion of someone at the symposium?
11 A. I'm going to have -- because I definitely
12 have my opinions now. Well -- okay, that was my
13 statement. That was my statement.
14 Q. Do you still agree with that statement?
15 A. Well, it's a problem. These people have
16 gone out there, basically squatted and built those
17 houses. When you fly over you see houses right on the
18 edge of the Everglades. And if we flood that
19 Everglades they're going to get flooded. So what do we
20 do? We put -- they'll come to the board meeting,
21 they're going to threaten to sue us. They're somewhat
22 organized. They probably -- if they get a good enough
23 lawyer, you know, they could probably win. I don't
24 know. I don't guess we want to fight it.
25 The other option is to put a levee around
381
1 them, because that, you know, that the Park has bought
2 the east Everglades. Basically that area is suffering
3 from a loss of hydrology, hydroperiod. It needs water
4 to -- it makes sense, you can just see it when you look
5 at the satellite imagery that -- you can see Shark
6 River Slough, but you can see this part that looked
7 different, it looks different because it doesn't get
8 enough water, it needs water. So it's a problem.
9 Personally at this point, it's a complicated issue and
10 I'm not sure -- something needs to be done but what,
11 I'm not sure.
12 Q. These people who have built homes in the
13 east Everglades have built homes on public land; is
14 that correct?
15 A. I think it was their land and, you know,
16 lot of Everglades is, even the entire Water
17 Conservation Area is privately owned by people so --
18 but do we give them a permit to build a house out there
19 and afford them flood protection? I don't think so.
20 Q. Then when you say they're squatters --
21 A. They didn't get a permit --
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. -- to build their house. That's my
24 understanding of the problem.
25 MS. RAEPPLE: Mark this as Exhibit 22.
382
1 (Thereupon, the document was marked
2 Rutchey Exb. No. 22 for Identification.)
3 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
4 Q. I'm now showing you a document which has
5 been marked as Exhibit 22 to this deposition. Why are
6 these fire records for WCA-2A in your files?
7 A. Basically I -- I scavenged these files
8 from Dewey's files when he left.
9 Q. Have you used them in any fashion?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How have you used them?
12 A. I've provided them to Yegang Wu, who is
13 making a fire model within Water Conservation Area 2A.
14 Q. When is that fire model proposed to be
15 complete?
16 A. I don't think there's an actual date that
17 I know of for completion. He's working on it.
18 Q. These records appear to only go through
19 about 1988.
20 A. I just got in the mail -- go ahead.
21 Q. Has this data been updated?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where is the updated data?
24 A. I just got it.
25 MS. RAEPPLE: Can we obtain a copy of that
383
1 updated fire data, please?
2 MR. CESARANO: Do you have it in your
3 office?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 MR. CESARANO: Can you pull it out?
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
8 Q. Let me show you two documents before I
9 have them marked, and see if one is an update of the
10 other, or if they're the same.
11 A. I'm -- I'm not sure I didn't -- well, go
12 ahead.
13 Q. Why are these annual average material
14 budgets for WCA-2, WCA-2A and WCA-3 combined for 1979
15 through -- 1978 in your files through '83?
16 A. To my best of my knowledge this was used
17 for the data that was provided to Mike Maceina for the
18 WCA-2A phosphorus analysis. I -- go ahead.
19 Q. Do you know why the one document which
20 doesn't have the cover sheet on it in the upper right
21 hand column in handwriting says new Dave Sobel's, was
22 that updated data?
23 A. I really don't know.
24 Q. Do you know which of these two documents
25 reflects the data given to Mike Maceina?
384
1 A. No.
2 MS. RAEPPLE: Mark this please as Exhibit
3 No. 23.
4 (Thereupon, the document was marked
5 Rutchey Exb. No. 23 for Identification.).
6 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
7 Q. Do you know why this document, which has
8 been marked as Exhibit 23 appears in your files?
9 A. Yeah, yeah. It looks like -- basically
10 you should be looking at this side. I think it looks
11 like Pete Rhoads scribbled on the back of a piece of
12 the SWIM Plan and said Walt, please have Ken do this.
13 Q. Do you recall whether you ever did plot
14 out the individual sample dates for these two years?
15 A. I think I did for Jim Moll.
16 Q. Which two years did the handwritten note
17 on back of this document reference?
18 A. I'm going to have to go back and look at
19 that data.
20 Q. Do you know what the purpose of plotting
21 out the individual sample dates for those two years
22 would have been?
23 A. No, this was just one of the assignments
24 that I get handed and I put it together and --
25 Q. Do you know whether this analysis has been
385
1 updated?
2 A. I'm not aware of it.
3 Q. Do you know who wrote the portion of the
4 SWIM Plan that discusses this analysis?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Before I have this marked as an exhibit,
7 would you identify this stack of documents, please?
8 A. This came out of a folder that I call
9 phosphorus data, and I think a lot of it was compiled
10 into the two -- three files that was given to Mike
11 Maceina.
12 Q. It also looks like there's another file
13 here that was done as part of a request to Walt from
14 Pete Rhoads for Jim Noll.
15 If I mark this as an exhibit, can you
16 identify which portion of it was data given to Mike
17 Maceina?
18 A. Well, it was, you know, all combined. The
19 only exception would be this. This might have been
20 given to Mike Maceina also.
21 Q. That --
22 A. It says Jim Noll right on it.
23 Q. The three page document stapled together
24 which says at the top data used for Jim Noll in
25 handwriting may or may not have gone to Mike Maceina,
386
1 but the rest of it did go to Mike Maceina in compiled
2 fashion?
3 A. Yes, in those data files that you already
4 have as an exhibit.
5 Q. Then this information is a duplicate of
6 the documents that we've already put into the record,
7 Or the data is duplicative of that data?
8 A. Yeah, it's a duplicate.
9 Q. All right. Let's not mark it as an
10 exhibit.
11 (Thereupon, a discussion was held off the
12 record.)
13 BY MS. RAEPPLE:
14 Q. Before I mark that as an exhibit, can you
15 identify it?
16 A. Yeah, these are part of the CAWQ water
17 quality collection network that was collected in Water
18 Conservation Area 2 from 1978 to 1984 and their
19 locations.
20 Q. Are these related to the transects that
21 you've previously described that you and Dewey Worth
22 worked on?
23 A. He looked at this data as part of that
24 report, I believe. I don't recall how he actually used
25 it. You'd have to ask Dewey.
387
1 Q. Did you ever use the data reflected in
2 this document?
3 A. I might have pulled the chemical
4 constituents for those sites and compiled them and
5 given them to Dewey. Other than that I don't recall.
6 Q. All right. Then I won't mark it as an
7 exhibit.
8 MS. RAEPPLE: It's 4 o'clock. As I
9 indicated earlier I will need to stop at this
10 point to catch an airplane. I'd like to reserve
11 the right to call Mr. Rutchey back once we've
12 received the digitized files and had an
13 opportunity to review all of these photographs
14 that he's described today and to determine
15 whether we need to make further inquiry.
16 MR. CESARANO: If, after you get that
17 information, if you'll contact us and if there's
18 some way we can do it without inconveniencing
19 him again, we'd prefer to do it that way. But
20 if you'll be in touch with us we'll work it out
21 the best way we can.
22 MS. RAEPPLE: Thank you. I'll go along
23 with that.
24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same with us, right.
25 MR. FITZGERALD: I would suggest, in view
388
1 of the hearing officer's rulings over the last
2 month and a half about concluding discovery that
3 it would behoove the parties to try more than
4 just avoiding inconveniencing the witness by
5 bringing this to a swift conclusion by telling
6 them what they need out of the data or what they
7 need specifically identified. And I'm sure he
8 will try and accommodate them to avoid causing
9 any loss of time in evaluating and reviewing the
10 data.
11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Well, that was great.
12 Thank you, Mr. Rutchey.
13 Reading or waiving?
14 MR. CESARANO: What do we usually do?
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Read.
16 (Witness excused.)
17
18 (Thereupon, at 4:00 p.m.,
19 the deposition was concluded.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF PALM BEACH. )
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8 I hereby certify that I have read the
9 foregoing deposition by me given, and that the
10 statements contained therein are true and correct to
11 the best of my knowledge and belief.
12
13
14 Dated this_______day of___________, 1994.
_
15
16
17 ___________________________
18 Ken Rutchey
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390
1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2
The State Of Florida )
3 County Of Palm Beach. )
4
I, the undersigned authority, certify that
5 Ken Rutchey personally appeared before me and was duly
sworn.
6
7 WITNESS my hand and official seal this
22nd day of February, 1994.
8
9 _____________________________
Robin L. Merker, RPR
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
The State Of Florida )
3 County Of Palm Beach. )
4
I, Robin L. Merker, Registered
5 Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that I was
authorized to and did report said deposition in
6 stenotype; and that the foregoing pages, numbered from
1 to 390, inclusive, are a true and correct
7 transcription of my shorthand notes of said deposition.
8 I further certify that I am not attorney
or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative
9 or employee of any attorney or counsel or party
connected with the action, nor am I financially
10 interested in the action.
11 The foregoing certification of this
transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the
12 same by any means unless under the direct control
and/or direction of the certifying reporter.
13
Dated this 22nd day of February, 1994.
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16 Robin L. Merker, RPR
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19 The State Of Florida )
County Of Palm Beach. )
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21 The foregoing certificate was acknowledged
before me this 22nd day of February, 1994 by
22 Robin L. Merker, who is personally known to me.
23
24 _______________________________
Notary Public - State of Florida
25 My commission expires: