192

 

 

 

 

1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA

2

SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )

3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and )

WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )

4 )

Petitioners, )

5 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

6 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

7 Respondents. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., )

UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )

9 and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )

Petitioners, )

10 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

11 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

12 Respondents. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

13 FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )

ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )

14 W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )

and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

15 Petitioners, )

vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040

16 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

17 of Florida; et al., )

Respondents. )

18 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

100 Southeast 2nd Street

19 Miami, Florida

November 23, 1992

20 9:10 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.

21 CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF RICHARD GETTINGS RING

22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered

 

 

23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for

 

 

24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of

 

 

25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause.

 

193

 

 

 

 

1 APPEARANCES

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and

3 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC.

4 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, P.A.

One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636

5 Two South Biscayne Boulevard

Miami, Florida

6 BY: JONATHAN L. GAINES, ESQ.

7 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

8

SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, ESQ.

9 THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQ.

Assistant United States Attorneys

10 155 North Miami Avenue

Suite 600

11 Miami, Florida 33130

12 INDEX

13 Witness Direct

RICHARD GETTINGS RING

14

By Mr. Gaines: 194

15

EXHIBIT PAGE DESCRIPTION

16

2 217 A document entitled Master Plan, May

17 1979, Everglades National Park, Florida

3 217 A document entitled Management

18 Policies, US Department of the

Interior, National Park Service,1988

19 4 219 A document entitled Resource

Management Plan, Everglades National

20 Park, dated September 1991

5 224 A document entitled South Florida

21 Research Center, allocation of $1.1M

base increase for FY 93

22 6 285 A three-page document dated

November 16, 1992 to Dr. Qualls

23 7 356 A two-page document, the first

page handwritten, the second page

24 addressed to Mr. Tidwell

8 360 A multi-page document, the top

25 page containing the date June 29, 1992

 

194

 

 

 

 

1 RICHARD GETTINGS RING, resumed.

 

 

2 THE COURT REPORTER: Superintendent Ring,

 

 

3 I remind you you are still under oath. Do you

 

 

4 understand that?

 

 

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

 

 

6 MS. PONZOLI: Just a housekeeping matter,

 

 

7 Mr. Gaines.

 

 

8 Superintendent Ring has requested that we

 

 

9 have a copy of his whole statement. You had said

 

 

10 yesterday you had no problem with showing him that.

 

 

11 So on one of the breaks if we can have a copy of that

 

 

12 made.

 

 

13 MR. GAINES: You are talking about the

 

 

14 statement to the Water Management District?

 

 

15 MS. PONZOLI: Right, just his portion

 

 

16 before the Water Management Board.

 

 

17 MR. GAINES: All right.

 

 

18 MS. PONZOLI: Thank you.

 

 

19 MR. GAINES: It is about two pages long.

 

 

20 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

 

 

21 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Superintendent.

 

 

23 A. Good morning.

 

 

24 Q. Yesterday we were talking about problems

 

 

25 in Everglades National Park and you mentioned that

 

195

 

 

 

 

1 you had observed some vegetative changes south of the

 

 

2 Water Management control structures at the northern

 

 

3 border of the Park during a helicopter flight. Is

 

 

4 that basically correct?

 

 

5 A. I mentioned that I had seen vegetative

 

 

6 changes associated with the water delivery structures

 

 

7 at the north end of the Park.

 

 

8 Q. And I believe you were of the opinion or

 

 

9 are of the opinion that these are associated with

 

 

10 increased nutrients in the water from the EAA runoff.

 

 

11 Is that also correct?

 

 

12 A. I believe my testimony yesterday was to

 

 

13 that effect.

 

 

14 Q. Are you aware of any other areas of the

 

 

15 Park besides what we just were discussing that have

 

 

16 been impacted by what you believe to be increased

 

 

17 nutrients from EAA activities?

 

 

18 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to the

 

 

19 form. Are you referring to nutrient additions to the

 

 

20 water alone, Mr. Gaines, or just any activity in the

 

 

21 EAA?

 

 

22 MR. GAINES: I am not referring to timing,

 

 

23 distribution of water delivery but to nutrient

 

 

24 loading.

 

 

25 MS. PONZOLI: Okay.

 

196

 

 

 

 

1 A. I am still being briefed on the nature and

 

 

2 extent of the data and concerns that my research

 

 

3 staff has with regards to those issues.

 

 

4 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

5 Q. Is it true then that as of this stage in

 

 

6 your briefing you haven't been made aware of any

 

 

7 other specific areas of the Park that are impacted by

 

 

8 nutrients from the EAA?

 

 

9 A. I have generally been made aware that

 

 

10 there are a number of impacts associated with higher

 

 

11 levels of nutrients coming from the EAA on the

 

 

12 Everglades system.

 

 

13 Q. Focusing just on the Park itself, I want

 

 

14 to determine what your current level of awareness or

 

 

15 knowledge is of any impacts inside the Park that have

 

 

16 been observed up until now which are purported to be

 

 

17 related to nutrients from the EAA.

 

 

18 A. My general understanding is that impact

 

 

19 due to elevated levels of nutrients creates a

 

 

20 progression of impact in the biotic communities and

 

 

21 that visible changes in plant communities such as the

 

 

22 presence of cattails is a relatively advanced stage

 

 

23 on that chain of changes.

 

 

24 I would assume from that and imply from

 

 

25 that that there are changes driven by the presence of

 

197

 

 

 

 

1 nutrients that are more extensive in scope than just

 

 

2 the cattail communities south of some of the Water

 

 

3 Management structures.

 

 

4 Q. If I understand what your answer just was,

 

 

5 you are saying that cattails have been observed and

 

 

6 as you understand it this signifies an advanced stage

 

 

7 of biotic change and therefore you assume that there

 

 

8 are other changes that have also occurred because you

 

 

9 can see the cattails. Is that a fair statement of

 

 

10 what you just said?

 

 

11 A. I rely on the statement I just made.

 

 

12 Q. Have any changes or impacts from nutrients

 

 

13 other than cattails south of the S-12 structures been

 

 

14 observed or documented in the park to your knowledge

 

 

15 as a result of nutrients from the EAA?

 

 

16 A. It is my understanding that they have.

 

 

17 Q. Can you tell me what those are?

 

 

18 A. Not specifically.

 

 

19 Q. Can you give me a general idea?

 

 

20 A. I believe I already have.

 

 

21 Q. And that would be changes in lower trophic

 

 

22 levels of the biotic community, lower than cattails,

 

 

23 not as readily observable from a helicopter, is that

 

 

24 what you are saying?

 

 

25 A. Certainly those.

 

198

 

 

 

 

1 Q. Would the changes you are talking about be

 

 

2 confined to the areas you are talking about where the

 

 

3 cattails were observed?

 

 

4 A. I don't specifically know.

 

 

5 Q. Who on your staff would be the person with

 

 

6 the most expertise or knowledge of this area?

 

 

7 A. I would rely on Dr. Soukup for information

 

 

8 relating to the specific nature and extent of our

 

 

9 data and research.

 

 

10 Q. So the only specific impact that you can

 

 

11 testify to here today is the cattail growth south of

 

 

12 the S-12 structures?

 

 

13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the

 

 

14 question. I think you are recharacterizing his

 

 

15 answer, I guess I would say that his answer stands

 

 

16 for itself.

 

 

17 I think he has given other specific

 

 

18 impacts. So I guess I object to the way you formed

 

 

19 your question.

 

 

20 MR. GAINES: I think I missed that then.

 

 

21 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

22 Q. Tell me one other specific impact that you

 

 

23 are aware of beside the cattail growth that you

 

 

24 observed? And when I say something specifically that

 

 

25 you are aware of, not something you have to imply or

 

199

 

 

 

 

1 infer from the fact that cattails are present but

 

 

2 something that you are aware of that has been

 

 

3 observed or documented.

 

 

4 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to the

 

 

5 form of the question.

 

 

6 A. I've stated the specific changes that I

 

 

7 personally observed.

 

 

8 Q. The cattails themselves that you observed

 

 

9 or that have been observed south of the S-12, are you

 

 

10 aware of how large an area of cattail growth we are

 

 

11 talking about?

 

 

12 A. In the areas that I have observed?

 

 

13 Q. Yes.

 

 

14 A. From the air I could not be precise. I

 

 

15 would say possibly as much as several hundred acres

 

 

16 at a given structure.

 

 

17 Q. When you say at a given structure, the

 

 

18 S-12 structures which I believe what we are talking

 

 

19 about which are on the northern border of the Park

 

 

20 there, there are four of those. Did you observe

 

 

21 cattail growth associated with each of the four

 

 

22 structures or one area of cattails associated

 

 

23 generally with the structures or what was it?

 

 

24 A. I saw obvious cattail communities from the

 

 

25 air at several locations. I could not tell you which

 

200

 

 

 

 

1 structures they were.

 

 

2 Q. Were you able to observe whether the

 

 

3 locations had some relation orientation to the

 

 

4 structures?

 

 

5 A. They were immediately downstream of the

 

 

6 structures.

 

 

7 Q. How far from the inflow point of the

 

 

8 structures did the cattail growth begin?

 

 

9 A. Within feet.

 

 

10 Q. Did they extend out in a fan-shaped

 

 

11 pattern or some other --

 

 

12 A. In a fan-shaped pattern.

 

 

13 Q. Can you give me your best estimate of how

 

 

14 far from the structures until the cattails stopped,

 

 

15 where growth was no longer observed?

 

 

16 MS. PONZOLI: It has been asked and

 

 

17 answered. I object to form.

 

 

18 MR. GAINES: He said several hundred acres

 

 

19 but I don't know what the configuration is.

 

 

20 A. Well, I believe I have just addressed the

 

 

21 configuration as to the size I would: I would rely

 

 

22 on the approximate acreage figure that I gave you

 

 

23 earlier.

 

 

24 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

25 Q. I think you stated you saw several areas

 

201

 

 

 

 

1 of cattail growth. Just to clear it up, those were

 

 

2 several hundred acres each?

 

 

3 A. I said I would say they may be as much as

 

 

4 several hundred acres.

 

 

5 Q. But you are talking about each one

 

 

6 separately may be as much as that?

 

 

7 A. Correct. I certainly could not tell

 

 

8 precisely from the air.

 

 

9 Q. Are you aware as to whether that has been

 

 

10 quantified by research that the staff or outside

 

 

11 contractors have done?

 

 

12 A. I do not know.

 

 

13 Q. Dr. Soukup would probably know the answer

 

 

14 to that?

 

 

15 A. You could ask him.

 

 

16 Q. If you wanted to know the answer to that,

 

 

17 is he the one you would ask?

 

 

18 A. If I wanted to know the answer to that I

 

 

19 would ask him to find out.

 

 

20 Q. Other than the S-12 cattail growth, are

 

 

21 you aware of any other cattail areas in the park?

 

 

22 A. I am aware that cattails can generally

 

 

23 occur at any location where there are elevated levels

 

 

24 of nutrients.

 

 

25 Q. Given that, are you aware of any other

 

202

 

 

 

 

1 cattail growth in the Park?

 

 

2 A. I have seen other areas where there were

 

 

3 cattails present.

 

 

4 Q. Can you tell me where that was?

 

 

5 A. In the vicinity of rookeries.

 

 

6 Q. Rookeries?

 

 

7 A. Yes.

 

 

8 Q. Where in the park exactly?

 

 

9 A. In a variety of locations.

 

 

10 Q. Do you attribute those cattails to the EAA

 

 

11 runoff?

 

 

12 A. No.

 

 

13 Q. What do you attribute those to?

 

 

14 A. Elevated level of nutrients.

 

 

15 Q. The source of those nutrients would be

 

 

16 what?

 

 

17 A. The birds nesting at the rookeries.

 

 

18 Q. What is the mechanism by which birds

 

 

19 nesting elevate nutrient levels?

 

 

20 A. Fecal material.

 

 

21 Q. Other than EAA or increased nutrient

 

 

22 levels in bird nesting activities, are there any

 

 

23 other causes that you are aware of that cause cattail

 

 

24 growth?

 

 

25 A. My understanding is that cattail growth

 

203

 

 

 

 

1 can occur in aquatic conditions at any location where

 

 

2 elevated levels of proper nutrients occur.

 

 

3 Q. So it is only elevated nutrients that

 

 

4 trigger cattail growth as opposed to other potential

 

 

5 causes, disturbance of the soil and that type of

 

 

6 thing?

 

 

7 A. Disturbance of soils can cause elevated

 

 

8 levels of nutrients to be released into the aquatic

 

 

9 system.

 

 

10 Q. Are there other causes of elevated

 

 

11 nutrient that you are aware of besides agricultural

 

 

12 activity, bird nesting activity, disturbance of

 

 

13 soils, any other causes?

 

 

14 A. I am sure there are.

 

 

15 Q. Are you aware of any of them?

 

 

16 A. Within the park?

 

 

17 Q. Yes, let's start with that.

 

 

18 A. I am aware that the primary occurrences of

 

 

19 elevated level of nutrients leading to the growth of

 

 

20 cattail communities are associated with either

 

 

21 quality of water being delivered to the park or

 

 

22 concentrations of animal communities.

 

 

23 Q. Such as the bird nesting?

 

 

24 A. Such as the bird nesting.

 

 

25 Q. When you talk about the quality of water

 

204

 

 

 

 

1 being delivered to the park, it indicates that

 

 

2 something has occurred to elevate the nutrients in

 

 

3 that water?

 

 

4 A. Correct.

 

 

5 Q. Other than agricultural activities,

 

 

6 disturbance of soils and the bird nesting, are you

 

 

7 aware of any other factors that can lead to such an

 

 

8 increase of nutrients in the water?

 

 

9 A. I am aware that in the case of Everglades

 

 

10 National Park those are the primary factors.

 

 

11 Q. Outside the context of the park itself,

 

 

12 are you aware of any other factors that can cause an

 

 

13 elevation in the nutrient level?

 

 

14 A. I would assume that there are a variety of

 

 

15 ways elevated levels of nutrients can be released

 

 

16 into the biotic system. That can either occur by the

 

 

17 release of nutrients that are already present but not

 

 

18 available for use by the plant communities or they

 

 

19 can be artificially introduced, and with regards to

 

 

20 artificial introduction, there are probably as many

 

 

21 ways as you and I have in our imagination.

 

 

22 Q. Can fire cause an elevation in the

 

 

23 nutrient level in water?

 

 

24 A. Fire can and often serves to break down

 

 

25 organic material into components that are available

 

205

 

 

 

 

1 for reuse in the biological system.

 

 

2 Q. So is that a yes, it can cause or lead to

 

 

3 an elevation in the nutrient level?

 

 

4 MS. PONZOLI: I will object to the form of

 

 

5 the question.

 

 

6 A. I will stand on my answer.

 

 

7 Q. When you say that fire can break down

 

 

8 organic material into components available for use in

 

 

9 the biological system, would those components include

 

 

10 nutrients?

 

 

11 A. They would include whatever compounds are

 

 

12 available in the material being burned.

 

 

13 Q. Do you have any awareness of or knowledge

 

 

14 as to whether or not fire can serve to elevate the

 

 

15 nutrient level of water?

 

 

16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

 

 

17 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the

 

 

18 question?

 

 

19 (The question referred to was

 

 

20 thereupon read by the reporter

 

 

21 as above recorded)

 

 

22 Q. Just to clarify it, I mean in a system

 

 

23 like the Everglades.

 

 

24 A. I understand that fire can release

 

 

25 elevated levels of organic and other compounds into

 

206

 

 

 

 

1 the air which can affect the quality of rainfall, for

 

 

2 instance, as in the instance of burning of sugar

 

 

3 cane.

 

 

4 Q. Given your general knowledge about the

 

 

5 ability of fire to break down organic material into

 

 

6 component parts, have you ever observed or been

 

 

7 exposed to the concept of fire serving to elevate the

 

 

8 phosphorus level of water?

 

 

9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think

 

 

10 it has been asked and answered several times here.

 

 

11 MR. GAINES: I can't seem to get beyond

 

 

12 some generic reference to organic material. I am

 

 

13 just trying to finish up the thought.

 

 

14 MS. PONZOLI: I understand, Mr. Gaines.

 

 

15 But I think we have offered Superintendent Ring in

 

 

16 some pretty confined areas and you are going far

 

 

17 afield from those. I have been letting him answer

 

 

18 but you want a certain answer and he answers your

 

 

19 question and answers your question the best way he

 

 

20 can.

 

 

21 And if it isn't the answer you want you

 

 

22 continue asking the same question. I think that is

 

 

23 improper.

 

 

24 MR. GAINES: The only answers I want are

 

 

25 complete and honest ones and that's my only goal

 

207

 

 

 

 

1 here.

 

 

2 As I understand it, Superintendent Ring is

 

 

3 offered to identify external threats to the park.

 

 

4 One of the main ones he has identified is

 

 

5 nutrient-rich water entering the park. And I am just

 

 

6 trying to explore the way that the water can become

 

 

7 nutrient enriched and I don't think that is far

 

 

8 afield at all.

 

 

9 MS. PONZOLI: I do think you won't

 

 

10 question but that he is giving you complete and

 

 

11 honest answers.

 

 

12 MR. GAINES: I certainly don't intend to

 

 

13 do that and I think the record will speak for itself

 

 

14 on that.

 

 

15 MR. GAINES: Could you read back the last

 

 

16 question.

 

 

17 (The question referred to was

 

 

18 thereupon read by the reporter

 

 

19 as above recorded)

 

 

20 A. I believe I indicated that I understood

 

 

21 that elevated levels of a variety of compounds

 

 

22 including nutrients could affect rainfall.

 

 

23 Q. Have you ever considered with your staff

 

 

24 the issue of the funneling effect that the S-12

 

 

25 structures create for the water flowing into the

 

208

 

 

 

 

1 park, the fact that it flows through four discrete

 

 

2 structures and the concentrating effect that has on

 

 

3 whatever nutrients there are in the water?

 

 

4 A. I know we have long had concerns with

 

 

5 regards to the concentration of delivery points of

 

 

6 water. Sheet flow was the naturally occurring

 

 

7 process of distribution.

 

 

8 Q. Have you ever discussed this issue

 

 

9 specifically with regard to the S-12 structures?

 

 

10 A. I've discussed it specifically with

 

 

11 regards to all of the delivery structures on the

 

 

12 upstream end of the park.

 

 

13 Q. Have you discussed the fact that if a more

 

 

14 natural sheet flow was established in the area of the

 

 

15 S-12 structures so that the water entered the park

 

 

16 over a broader range rather than through four

 

 

17 concentrated points, that that would address to a

 

 

18 large extent any elevated nutrients contained in the

 

 

19 water by disbursing it out over a wide area?

 

 

20 A. I am aware that such a distribution of

 

 

21 water with elevated levels of nutrients would create

 

 

22 a much more widespread effect.

 

 

23 Q. So if I understand what you are saying,

 

 

24 that would make the problem worse and not better, is

 

 

25 that correct?

 

209

 

 

 

 

1 A. If the quality of water being delivered

 

 

2 had levels of nutrients significantly higher than

 

 

3 what naturally occurred, it would make the problem

 

 

4 much more widespread.

 

 

5 Q. So assuming for a minute that the quality

 

 

6 of the water doesn't change from what it is right

 

 

7 now, if we were able to implement a regime whereby

 

 

8 the water entered the park on the northern end there

 

 

9 over that entire expanse of the park through sheet

 

 

10 flow rather than through the discrete structures

 

 

11 there, it is your opinion that that would worsen the

 

 

12 problem rather than improve the situation?

 

 

13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. It is the

 

 

14 same question you asked before. He answered it.

 

 

15 Q. Let me just --

 

 

16 A. It is my opinion that it would distribute

 

 

17 the effect.

 

 

18 Q. Would the effect that is distributed be

 

 

19 diluted as well or would it be the same effect that

 

 

20 is observed but just over the entire area?

 

 

21 A. It would be the same net effect on the

 

 

22 park, and as a result equally as problematic.

 

 

23 Q. When you say the same net effect, you mean

 

 

24 the same volume of nutrients would be entering the

 

 

25 park, just in different areas?

 

210

 

 

 

 

1 A. Under the scenario you described --

 

 

2 Q. Under my scenario, yes.

 

 

3 A. -- you described that -- you described as

 

 

4 I understand it, that is correct.

 

 

5 Q. Is it a goal or desire of the park or of

 

 

6 you as the superintendent, to try to address the

 

 

7 sheet flow issue in the area of the S-12s?

 

 

8 A. It is our desire to reestablish sheet flow

 

 

9 distribution of water wherever we can in a manner

 

 

10 that approximates the naturally occurring system.

 

 

11 Q. Are you aware of any specific goal or plan

 

 

12 with regard to the area we have been talking about?

 

 

13 A. I believe we are working with the Corps of

 

 

14 Engineers and the South Florida Water Management

 

 

15 District on modified water deliveries plan for the --

 

 

16 for Shark Slough.

 

 

17 Q. That is the general design memorandum for

 

 

18 modified water deliveries?

 

 

19 A. That is correct.

 

 

20 Q. Do you know what the current status is of

 

 

21 that?

 

 

22 A. My understanding is that the general

 

 

23 design memorandum has been approved and that work is

 

 

24 now proceeding on what they call the detailed design

 

 

25 memorandum. I may be off on the exact title. The

 

211

 

 

 

 

1 acronym I believe is DDM.

 

 

2 Q. Do you have any idea when that is supposed

 

 

3 to be ready, completed?

 

 

4 A. I don't know the particular schedule. I

 

 

5 do know that it is proceeding over the next year to

 

 

6 two years.

 

 

7 Q. What is the current regime for water

 

 

8 deliveries to the park? Is there a document that

 

 

9 contains that?

 

 

10 A. I am not sure I understand what you mean

 

 

11 by regime.

 

 

12 Q. The current plan, the current practice for

 

 

13 how water is delivered to the park, quantity, timing,

 

 

14 distribution.

 

 

15 A. If you are referring to an operating plan,

 

 

16 I believe there are operating plans and schedules

 

 

17 developed and in place between the South Florida

 

 

18 Water Management District and the Corps of Engineers.

 

 

19 Q. Have you had occasion to review the

 

 

20 current operating plan in detail?

 

 

21 A. No.

 

 

22 Q. Have you generally reviewed it?

 

 

23 A. I generally understand that there is a

 

 

24 minimum water delivery schedule on the books and that

 

 

25 there are experimental water deliveries occurring

 

212

 

 

 

 

1 which supersede minimum water delivery schedule on an

 

 

2 iterative basis.

 

 

3 Q. And the minimum water delivery schedule, I

 

 

4 take it, is just what it sounds like, it determines

 

 

5 the minimum amount of water that can be -- that must

 

 

6 be delivered to the park at certain times?

 

 

7 A. I only referred to the title of the

 

 

8 document, not to its effectiveness.

 

 

9 Q. Is that what the intent of the document is

 

 

10 to your understanding?

 

 

11 A. I wasn't here when it was put together. I

 

 

12 understand that was developed in the early 1970s.

 

 

13 Q. As far as the experimental water delivery

 

 

14 model, is that what is referred to as the rainfall

 

 

15 model, rainfall driven model?

 

 

16 A. We are talking -- you have now

 

 

17 transitioned into reference to a model which is an

 

 

18 entirely different concept and an item than an

 

 

19 operating schedule or agreement.

 

 

20 Q. Is the current experimental water delivery

 

 

21 schedule based upon a rainfall model?

 

 

22 A. My understanding that information

 

 

23 developed utilizing such a model has been used in

 

 

24 establishing experimental deliveries.

 

 

25 Q. Who on your staff has the most contact

 

213

 

 

 

 

1 with this issue and the most expertise?

 

 

2 A. On --

 

 

3 Q. Water deliveries to the park and also

 

 

4 coordinating with the District and the Corps on that

 

 

5 issue?

 

 

6 A. Again, I would refer to my research

 

 

7 director and his staff.

 

 

8 Q. Yesterday at the deposition there were

 

 

9 several documents that were produced that we didn't

 

 

10 see previously. One of them is a master plan dated

 

 

11 May 1979, Everglades National Park.

 

 

12 Can you tell me generally what is the

 

 

13 purpose of the master plan?

 

 

14 A. First I would explain that the term master

 

 

15 plan is a term that was typically used for broad

 

 

16 management planning for national park system units

 

 

17 prior to the late 1970s. Since that time with

 

 

18 Congressional guidance those documents are now

 

 

19 referred to as general management plans. And they

 

 

20 are intended to be -- to outline a broad management

 

 

21 framework responsive to Congressional mandates,

 

 

22 resource and visitor conditions and external

 

 

23 influences. They establish a strategy for management

 

 

24 of the unit intended to cover roughly a ten-year

 

 

25 period of time.

 

214

 

 

 

 

1 Q. You gave me several documents yesterday

 

 

2 but one is the master plan dated May 1979, and

 

 

3 another is called resource management plan,

 

 

4 Everglades National Park, a draft of that, with a

 

 

5 date of September 1991.

 

 

6 Is the resource management plan a current

 

 

7 version of what was called the master plan in 1979?

 

 

8 A. No.

 

 

9 Q. Two different kinds of documents?

 

 

10 A. Yes.

 

 

11 Q. Sticking with this master plan for a

 

 

12 minute, who would these master plans or general

 

 

13 management plans be prepared by, the park staff?

 

 

14 A. Typically a team made up of professional

 

 

15 planners and appropriately knowledgeable employees

 

 

16 capable of addressing the issues and needs of a given

 

 

17 area would be pulled together as a team.

 

 

18 Typically the superintendent would be the

 

 

19 primary management official working with that team,

 

 

20 providing it its guidance and support. And there may

 

 

21 be members of park staff, regional office,

 

 

22 professional service center or national office

 

 

23 assigned as members of the team.

 

 

24 Q. Is there a subsequent master plan or

 

 

25 general management plan in effect or that has been

 

215

 

 

 

 

1 drafted for Everglades National Park?

 

 

2 A. No.

 

 

3 Q. So is the 1979 version still in effect?

 

 

4 A. It is the most recent official document on

 

 

5 the books.

 

 

6 Q. Does a master plan that is 13 years old

 

 

7 still provide you with meaningful guidance in

 

 

8 managing the park?

 

 

9 A. It can.

 

 

10 Q. Do you make use of this master plan in

 

 

11 your management of the park?

 

 

12 A. I would refer to it routinely along with

 

 

13 other documents in understanding and addressing

 

 

14 management problems.

 

 

15 Q. As I understand the purpose of this, it

 

 

16 gives you a broad direction or guidepost for

 

 

17 management activities in connection with your

 

 

18 Congressional mandate and the resource needs and the

 

 

19 public needs and that sort of thing?

 

 

20 A. It is a general strategy to guide the

 

 

21 management of the unit intended to cover

 

 

22 approximately a decade.

 

 

23 Q. I guess that brings up the question, is

 

 

24 there another one in the works?

 

 

25 A. Not at the moment.

 

216

 

 

 

 

1 Q. Do you intend or is it intended that a new

 

 

2 master plan or general management plan will be

 

 

3 drafted up for Everglades National Park?

 

 

4 A. It is the practice of the service to

 

 

5 periodically review and undertake new general

 

 

6 management planning process for all units of the

 

 

7 national Park system.

 

 

8 Q. So you would expect at some point there

 

 

9 will be a new plan?

 

 

10 A. Absolutely.

 

 

11 Q. Have you had any indication as to when

 

 

12 that might be?

 

 

13 A. It would largely be my responsibility to

 

 

14 trigger it.

 

 

15 Q. Do you have any current intention to

 

 

16 trigger that process?

 

 

17 A. It is typical practice, and certainly my

 

 

18 intention, to review the status of plans for the park

 

 

19 along with all other aspects of the management

 

 

20 program and to set in motion appropriate efforts to

 

 

21 follow through on critical commitments and to

 

 

22 precipitate reviews and revisions of specific

 

 

23 programs and strategies and plans where I feel it is

 

 

24 necessary.

 

 

25 Q. As we sit here today do you have any

 

217

 

 

 

 

1 specific time frame in mind as to when you might or

 

 

2 when you will trigger this process of coming up with

 

 

3 a new general management plan?

 

 

4 A. No.

 

 

5 MR. GAINES: Why don't we go ahead and

 

 

6 mark this as an exhibit. Make it No. 2.

 

 

7 (A document entitled Master Plan, May

 

 

8 1979, Everglades National Park, Florida, was marked

 

 

9 Ring Deposition Exhibit 2 for identification)

 

 

10 MR. GAINES: Another document we received

 

 

11 yesterday is entitled Management Policies, US

 

 

12 Department of the Interior, National Park Service,

 

 

13 1988 which we will mark as Exhibit 3.

 

 

14 (A document entitled Management Policies,

 

 

15 US Department of the Interior, National Park Service,

 

 

16 1988 was marked Ring Deposition Exhibit 3 for

 

 

17 identification)

 

 

18 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

19 Q. Superintendent Ring, how is this

 

 

20 management policies document used by you, if at all,

 

 

21 in managing the park?

 

 

22 A. It is one of a variety of documents I

 

 

23 refer to for guidance in reaching decisions related

 

 

24 to the management of the area.

 

 

25 Q. Is this a standard management policies

 

218

 

 

 

 

1 manual for Park superintendents, national Park

 

 

2 superintendents?

 

 

3 A. It is the management policies manual for

 

 

4 the National Park Service.

 

 

5 Q. I notice this one is dated 1988. Is that

 

 

6 the most current manual that there is?

 

 

7 A. To the best of my knowledge, that's the

 

 

8 most current comprehensive edition.

 

 

9 Q. Have there been any changes to this since

 

 

10 1988 that you are aware of?

 

 

11 A. There has not been any updated version of

 

 

12 it published.

 

 

13 Q. Is this a document that you use on a

 

 

14 regular basis?

 

 

15 A. It is one of several documents that

 

 

16 provide me with guidance on any and all decisions

 

 

17 that I make.

 

 

18 Q. I am just trying to get a feel. Is this

 

 

19 something you would look at every day of the week or

 

 

20 once a month or how integral to your function is the

 

 

21 management policies document?

 

 

22 A. The policies established in the document

 

 

23 are policies that routinely guide my actions.

 

 

24 Q. Are these policies that -- I am sorry?

 

 

25 A. I worked with some version of this for 20

 

219

 

 

 

 

1 years so I don't sleep with it under my pillow.

 

 

2 Q. In other words, some of the policies you

 

 

3 are so familiar with at this point through repeated

 

 

4 exposure to them and through your experience that you

 

 

5 don't have to look it up every time you make a move?

 

 

6 A. Correct.

 

 

7 MR. GAINES: The third document or another

 

 

8 document we got yesterday is what is called Resource

 

 

9 Management Plan, Everglades National Park, and on the

 

 

10 interior page it states, Draft, Resource Management

 

 

11 Plan for Everglades National Park, September 1991.

 

 

12 Mark this please as Exhibit 4.

 

 

13 (A document entitled Resource Management

 

 

14 Plan, Everglades National Park, dated September 1991

 

 

15 was marked Ring Deposition Exhibit 4 for

 

 

16 identification)

 

 

17 MS. PONZOLI: Off the record.

 

 

18 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

 

 

19 after which the following proceedings

 

 

20 were had)

 

 

21 MR. GAINES: Back on the record

 

 

22 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

23 Q. What has been marked as Exhibit 4, the

 

 

24 resource management plan, what is this document?

 

 

25 A. It is a draft of a programatic document

 

220

 

 

 

 

1 which provides a more detailed approach to the

 

 

2 management of natural and cultural resources within

 

 

3 the park.

 

 

4 Q. More detailed than the master plan that we

 

 

5 were talking about?

 

 

6 A. Yes. It is considered in our planning

 

 

7 process a subsidiary or implementing type of a plan

 

 

8 for the general management strategy that would be

 

 

9 outlined in a master plan or a general management

 

 

10 plan.

 

 

11 Q. How often is a resource management plan

 

 

12 done?

 

 

13 A. It is done initially and then routinely

 

 

14 reviewed every two to three years, and where

 

 

15 necessary, updated.

 

 

16 Q. I notice on the inside page here there is

 

 

17 a signature, recommended by, looks like Mr. Chandler

 

 

18 signed it as the superintendent on October 2, 1991.

 

 

19 A. Yes.

 

 

20 Q. There is also a signature line for the

 

 

21 regional director which is blank. Do you know if

 

 

22 this was passed on to the regional director for

 

 

23 approval?

 

 

24 A. Yes, it was.

 

 

25 Q. Has it been approved?

 

221

 

 

 

 

1 A. My understanding is that there was staff

 

 

2 review within our regional office and comments and

 

 

3 suggestions communicated back to the park regarding

 

 

4 the draft, and that a final document has not yet been

 

 

5 transmitted, a revised final document.

 

 

6 Q. Is that in the process of being prepared

 

 

7 now?

 

 

8 A. Yes.

 

 

9 Q. Who is in charge of that effort?

 

 

10 A. I am.

 

 

11 Q. Who are the primary staff people that you

 

 

12 are utilizing to do that work?

 

 

13 A. I have resource management staff within

 

 

14 the South Florida Research Center that would be the

 

 

15 coordinators, but would draw on comment and input

 

 

16 from several divisions and a variety of staff

 

 

17 members.

 

 

18 Q. Are there any particular individuals that

 

 

19 are the most heavily involved with this?

 

 

20 A. Certainly the research director.

 

 

21 Q. Dr. Soukup?

 

 

22 A. Dr. Soukup.

 

 

23 Q. If the regional director had just gone

 

 

24 ahead and signed it and approved it would there just

 

 

25 have been a final plan and not a draft, is that what

 

222

 

 

 

 

1 is necessary for it to become a final plan?

 

 

2 A. Yes. But it was transmitted as a draft

 

 

3 for review with an expectation of comments and

 

 

4 revisions prior to finalization.

 

 

5 Q. So there was no expectation that it would

 

 

6 be sent up and approved and you would have a final

 

 

7 plan without further revisions?

 

 

8 A. No.

 

 

9 Q. Does this plan relate primarily to

 

 

10 research efforts at the park or more broad issues

 

 

11 than that?

 

 

12 A. Broader issues than that.

 

 

13 Q. Let me ask you to turn to a section -- I

 

 

14 don't have the dividers -- it is kind of in the

 

 

15 middle here -- it has a series of what are called

 

 

16 project statement sheets.

 

 

17 A. Yes.

 

 

18 Q. I believe the name of the section is --

 

 

19 A. Project statements.

 

 

20 Q. There are a handful, about 20 or 30 of

 

 

21 these project statement sheets. What are the

 

 

22 purposes of these documents?

 

 

23 A. They are a -- they represent a compilation

 

 

24 of resource management projects that the park has

 

 

25 identified as being appropriate to undertake in order

 

223

 

 

 

 

1 to accomplish the programatic objectives of the plan.

 

 

2 Q. It appears that there are various studies

 

 

3 or research projects or other activities described in

 

 

4 the project statement sheets in the form of a

 

 

5 statement of a problem, a description of recommended

 

 

6 action and a brief budget, some budget information.

 

 

7 Are these sheets essentially an

 

 

8 application to somebody for authorization or funding

 

 

9 to do these projects?

 

 

10 A. No.

 

 

11 Q. For example, the first one, project No.

 

 

12 001 here entitled the East Everglades Exotic

 

 

13 Vegetation Control, it says, Funding Status,

 

 

14 unfunded.

 

 

15 Is that still the status of that, if you

 

 

16 know?

 

 

17 A. I'm not sure I can give you the specifics

 

 

18 with regards to what activities under this project

 

 

19 were funded in fiscal year 1992 and fund allocation

 

 

20 for projects for fiscal year 1993 have not yet been

 

 

21 made.

 

 

22 Q. If these sheets are not a mechanism by

 

 

23 which funding or approval is requested for these

 

 

24 projects, what is that mechanism?

 

 

25 A. There are routine budget submittals.

 

224

 

 

 

 

1 Q. Who are they submitted to?

 

 

2 A. Any that I submit are submitted to the

 

 

3 regional director in Atlanta.

 

 

4 Q. Would those budget submittals have a

 

 

5 breakdown of the various projects such as we see on

 

 

6 the project statement sheet, describing what they

 

 

7 are, how much should be budgeted for them and why

 

 

8 they are necessary, that kind of thing?

 

 

9 A. In any funding request I would identify

 

 

10 those priority projects or needs and provide

 

 

11 justification for the funds requested.

 

 

12 MR. GAINES: While we are talking about

 

 

13 this let's make this No. 5.

 

 

14 (A document entitled South Florida

 

 

15 Research Center, allocation of $1.1M base increase

 

 

16 for FY 93 was marked Ring Deposition Exhibit 5 for

 

 

17 identification)

 

 

18 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

19 Q. What has been marked as Exhibit No. 5 is

 

 

20 two pages relating to, as I see it, funding for the

 

 

21 South Florida Research Center. The first page

 

 

22 references allocation of $1.1 million base increase

 

 

23 for fiscal year '93.

 

 

24 Was there a $1.1 million base increase in

 

 

25 the funding for the Research Center for fiscal year

 

225

 

 

 

 

1 '93?

 

 

2 A. No.

 

 

3 Q. What does this refer to? Was this a

 

 

4 proposed increase?

 

 

5 A. Yes.

 

 

6 Q. Has that been approved?

 

 

7 A. No.

 

 

8 Q. Has it been declined or is it still

 

 

9 pending?

 

 

10 A. A base increase as described was proposed

 

 

11 as part of the President's budget proposal to

 

 

12 Congress in January of 1992 for fiscal year 1993. It

 

 

13 included a $1.1 million increase for research at

 

 

14 Everglades National Park. It was part of a targeted

 

 

15 parks program proposal for the National Park Service.

 

 

16 It was not funded in the -- as proposed in

 

 

17 the final appropriations bill.

 

 

18 Q. Was there any increase funded in the final

 

 

19 appropriations bill?

 

 

20 A. Specific to Everglades National Park?

 

 

21 Q. Yes.

 

 

22 A. No.

 

 

23 Q. When you have your budget funded each

 

 

24 year, each fiscal year, is there a specific amount

 

 

25 that is allocated to the Research Center, South

 

226

 

 

 

 

1 Florida Research Center?

 

 

2 A. I have allocated an operating budget

 

 

3 within which I fund all aspects of continuing Park

 

 

4 operations, including the Research Center.

 

 

5 Q. So you are provided with essentially a

 

 

6 lump sum by Congress and as superintendent you have

 

 

7 the authority and discretion to determine how to best

 

 

8 allocate those funds in carrying out your function?

 

 

9 A. Within those base funding levels I have

 

 

10 discretion to set fund allocations for the various

 

 

11 aspects of park operation.

 

 

12 Q. So the funding for the Research Center,

 

 

13 whether it was increased or decreased, it was up to

 

 

14 you within your base fund allocation, is that

 

 

15 correct?

 

 

16 A. To a degree.

 

 

17 Q. How were you treated for fiscal year '93

 

 

18 by Congress? Did you receive any increased funds

 

 

19 from the prior year?

 

 

20 A. For operations?

 

 

21 Q. Operations as opposed to what?

 

 

22 A. As opposed to any other sources of funding

 

 

23 that Congress might appropriate for activities not

 

 

24 contained within normal Park operations.

 

 

25 Q. Can you give me an example of something

 

227

 

 

 

 

1 that would be not within normal Park operations that

 

 

2 Congress would appropriate funds for?

 

 

3 A. Land acquisition.

 

 

4 Q. Anything else?

 

 

5 A. A variety.

 

 

6 Q. From your answer, for fiscal year '93 did

 

 

7 Congress appropriate certain funds for operations,

 

 

8 certain funds for land acquisition and certain funds

 

 

9 for other items relating to the park?

 

 

10 A. They appropriated funds in a variety of

 

 

11 categories for the National Park Service.

 

 

12 Q. In each of those categories or for the

 

 

13 National Park Service as a whole?

 

 

14 A. Yes.

 

 

15 Q. Would Congress deal specifically with what

 

 

16 piece of that pie goes to Everglades National Park or

 

 

17 is that someone within the Park Service?

 

 

18 A. Yes.

 

 

19 Q. Both?

 

 

20 A. Yes.

 

 

21 Q. In terms of operations, did you receive an

 

 

22 increase for '93?

 

 

23 A. No.

 

 

24 Q. Did you receive a decrease?

 

 

25 A. Yes.

 

228

 

 

 

 

1 Q. How much were you decreased?

 

 

2 A. I believe there was some portion of one

 

 

3 percent across the board naturally that was reduced

 

 

4 from Park operating budgets.

 

 

5 Q. And that was some portion of one percent

 

 

6 decrease of the operating funds that were allocated

 

 

7 to the National Park Service as a whole?

 

 

8 A. Correct.

 

 

9 Q. What authority determines how those

 

 

10 operating funds are distributed among the various

 

 

11 national parks?

 

 

12 A. Usually the director of the National Park

 

 

13 Service consistent with whatever language is in the

 

 

14 appropriations bill.

 

 

15 Q. Are you aware whether in this instance did

 

 

16 the director have the authority to decrease some

 

 

17 parks more and increase some depending on need or was

 

 

18 it just an across the board, some fraction of one

 

 

19 percent decrease in operating budgets for all parks?

 

 

20 A. My understanding is that Congress reduced

 

 

21 all operating accounts by that percentage in order to

 

 

22 meet their target funding levels.

 

 

23 Q. And whatever happened at other parks, you

 

 

24 know your operating budget decreased by some portion

 

 

25 of one percent?

 

229

 

 

 

 

1 A. Correct, that's what I have been informed.

 

 

2 Q. Do you recall what the amount allocated is

 

 

3 for your operating budget for fiscal year '93?

 

 

4 A. I don't know the specific figure.

 

 

5 Q. Can you give me an order of magnitude?

 

 

6 A. Between 8 and $9 million.

 

 

7 Q. And fiscal year '93, when does that begin?

 

 

8 A. It began on the 1st of October 1991 and

 

 

9 ends on September 30, 1992.

 

 

10 Q. Do you recall how much was allocated for

 

 

11 land acquisition for fiscal year '93 roughly?

 

 

12 A. I believe 7 and a half million dollars was

 

 

13 appropriated by Congress for land acquisition at

 

 

14 Everglades National Park.

 

 

15 Q. Is that primarily targeted to the east

 

 

16 Everglades area?

 

 

17 A. Primarily.

 

 

18 Q. Other than land acquisition and

 

 

19 operations, are there any other categories of funding

 

 

20 that were allocated to the park for '93?

 

 

21 A. By Congress?

 

 

22 Q. By Congress.

 

 

23 A. Construction funds were allocated.

 

 

24 Q. How much was that?

 

 

25 A. $7 million.

 

230

 

 

 

 

1 Q. What is intended to be constructed with

 

 

2 those funds?

 

 

3 A. Those funds are supporting the

 

 

4 implementation by the Corps of Engineers of modified

 

 

5 water deliveries to the park.

 

 

6 Q. Are they already in the construction phase

 

 

7 on the modified water deliveries?

 

 

8 A. No.

 

 

9 Q. So what do those funds, are those for

 

 

10 further studies in that area?

 

 

11 A. The category of appropriation is line item

 

 

12 construction by title. The funds appropriated are

 

 

13 the funds specifically necessary to accomplish that

 

 

14 project identified.

 

 

15 Q. Is that to support the detailed design

 

 

16 memorandum effort that is ongoing?

 

 

17 A. Funds appropriated for that project

 

 

18 support all aspects of the project including design

 

 

19 stages.

 

 

20 Q. So just because the line item is entitled

 

 

21 construction doesn't necessarily indicate that

 

 

22 anything is going to be built with those funds,

 

 

23 right?

 

 

24 A. It implies that the project is one that

 

 

25 will be built.

 

231

 

 

 

 

1 Q. At some point?

 

 

2 A. At some point.

 

 

3 Q. But not necessarily fiscal year '93?

 

 

4 A. Correct.

 

 

5 Q. I take it that at this point, given the

 

 

6 still ongoing design, you don't have any awareness of

 

 

7 what structures are intended to be built in

 

 

8 connection with that project, is that right?

 

 

9 A. I believe the general design memorandum

 

 

10 outlines those structures.

 

 

11 Q. Can you tell me generally what structures

 

 

12 are included in that?

 

 

13 A. I would refer you to the Corps of

 

 

14 Engineers at the Jacksonville District.

 

 

15 Q. Is there an individual at the park who is

 

 

16 primarily coordinating with them on this?

 

 

17 A. It would fall between my office and the

 

 

18 research center.

 

 

19 Q. Dr. Soukup, and in your office you are the

 

 

20 individual?

 

 

21 A. Dr. Soukup and I would direct the

 

 

22 coordination with the Corps of Engineers on the -- on

 

 

23 that project.

 

 

24 Q. Any other categories of funds allocated by

 

 

25 Congress for fiscal year '93?

 

232

 

 

 

 

1 A. Specifically providing funds to the

 

 

2 Everglades National Park?

 

 

3 Q. Yes.

 

 

4 A. Not that I am aware of.

 

 

5 Q. Are there other funds available to the

 

 

6 park for fiscal year '93 that have not been allocated

 

 

7 by Congress?

 

 

8 A. Aside from the base funds that I referred

 

 

9 to?

 

 

10 Q. We spoke about operations, land

 

 

11 acquisition and construction funds that have been

 

 

12 appropriated by Congress. Is that the sum total of

 

 

13 the funds that you have in your checkbook for this

 

 

14 fiscal year or are there other funds available?

 

 

15 A. Those are the only funds that have been

 

 

16 allocated to the park.

 

 

17 Q. The only reason I am asking this question

 

 

18 is when I asked you if there were other funds

 

 

19 allocated you asked, by Congress, which indicated to

 

 

20 me there might be some other source of funding. Are

 

 

21 there other sources of funding that the park has?

 

 

22 A. That the park has?

 

 

23 Q. Yes.

 

 

24 A. Not at this moment.

 

 

25 Q. At some prior moment were there other

 

233

 

 

 

 

1 sources of funding or do you anticipate other sources

 

 

2 of funding? I am just trying to be clear.

 

 

3 A. You have asked several things. Could you

 

 

4 be specific?

 

 

5 Q. Here is the basic thrust of my question.

 

 

6 You seem to be qualifying your answer in some way

 

 

7 when I am trying to pin down what funds are

 

 

8 available.

 

 

9 When I asked what was funded you said by

 

 

10 Congress indicating there might be some other source.

 

 

11 When I said was there another source you said not at

 

 

12 this moment which indicates at some other time there

 

 

13 might be other sources.

 

 

14 What other types of sources are there

 

 

15 available to the park for funding?

 

 

16 A. At any given time a variety of other fund

 

 

17 sources can be made available.

 

 

18 Q. Can you give me an example of that variety

 

 

19 of sources?

 

 

20 A. From other programs within the National

 

 

21 Park Service operation, from other agencies of

 

 

22 government, from other governments, from other

 

 

23 academic and private institutions, from the visitor

 

 

24 who spends time in the park. That would be a sample.

 

 

25 Q. Beyond the base funds that we have

 

234

 

 

 

 

1 discussed, does the park have available to it

 

 

2 currently any other funds from the National Park

 

 

3 Service for other programs?

 

 

4 A. For fiscal year '93?

 

 

5 Q. Yes.

 

 

6 A. Not at this time.

 

 

7 Q. Do you have any reason to anticipate any

 

 

8 such funding?

 

 

9 A. Yes.

 

 

10 Q. What is that? Why is that?

 

 

11 A. There are a variety of park programs and

 

 

12 offices that are administered regionally and

 

 

13 centrally in support of specific functional

 

 

14 objectives, and priorities are set in support of park

 

 

15 activities on an annual basis and either staff time

 

 

16 or funding can be allocated in support of specific

 

 

17 projects and objectives at different parks as a

 

 

18 result of those decisions.

 

 

19 Q. Do you currently anticipate any specific

 

 

20 funding with regard to any specific such program or

 

 

21 objective?

 

 

22 A. I believe that would be speculation.

 

 

23 Q. I don't want to rise to the level of

 

 

24 speculation. Have you been advised by anybody that

 

 

25 there is going to be such a program? Are you aware

 

235

 

 

 

 

1 of any such programs or objectives that are imminent?

 

 

2 A. I told you that there are a variety of

 

 

3 those, of such programs and decisions are made in

 

 

4 support of specific field projects.

 

 

5 Q. Among that variety, do you have any

 

 

6 specific awareness of any of them?

 

 

7 A. I know of most of those offices and

 

 

8 programs.

 

 

9 Q. Do you know of any one program for which

 

 

10 the park will receive funding on this basis during

 

 

11 fiscal year '93, just as an example?

 

 

12 A. I know of no allocations that have been

 

 

13 made.

 

 

14 Q. Can you tell me one program that you think

 

 

15 is the most likely to be funded and allocated to the

 

 

16 park?

 

 

17 A. With regards to budget matters, I would

 

 

18 not speculate on funding allocations until they have

 

 

19 been made.

 

 

20 Q. How did you become aware of these various

 

 

21 programs that are not yet funded or haven't yet been

 

 

22 allocated?

 

 

23 A. I started to work with them as a budget

 

 

24 and program analyst 18 years ago and have been

 

 

25 dealing with them as a park manager ever since.

 

236

 

 

 

 

1 Q. And in your experience are these types of

 

 

2 programs funded each fiscal year?

 

 

3 A. Some combination of them to varying

 

 

4 degrees, yes.

 

 

5 Q. Can you give me some examples of just

 

 

6 several of the types of programs you are talking

 

 

7 about so I can understand the parameters of this type

 

 

8 of program?

 

 

9 A. There is a program called lump sum

 

 

10 construction. It is intended to provide

 

 

11 project-related construction funds in small

 

 

12 quantities -- in small amounts to areas that have

 

 

13 emergency needs that cannot be met through the normal

 

 

14 budget cycle.

 

 

15 There is cyclic maintenance funding which

 

 

16 is allocated to provide larger cost for typically

 

 

17 contractually accomplished maintenance projects like

 

 

18 roof replacements and major rebuilds of facilities.

 

 

19 Q. Would you expect some funding along those

 

 

20 lines in connection with the damage from the

 

 

21 hurricane?

 

 

22 A. Funding from those sources could be used

 

 

23 in response to some of those things.

 

 

24 Q. Would funding of this type be used for

 

 

25 research projects undertaken by the Research Center?

 

237

 

 

 

 

1 A. Not of the programs I have described.

 

 

2 Q. Not lump sum construction or cyclic

 

 

3 maintenance but funding from the National Park

 

 

4 Service from other programs within it beside the base

 

 

5 funds that have been allocated, could that

 

 

6 potentially generate funds for the Research Center?

 

 

7 A. There are programs that could.

 

 

8 Q. Are you aware of what those are?

 

 

9 A. Certainly.

 

 

10 Q. What are they?

 

 

11 A. There is a water resources program

 

 

12 administered by the service, an inventory and

 

 

13 monitoring program administered by the service, a

 

 

14 science program administered by the region. A

 

 

15 variety.

 

 

16 Q. Are you aware as to whether or not any of

 

 

17 those types of programs for the research component

 

 

18 generated any funding to the Research Center or the

 

 

19 park in the prior fiscal year?

 

 

20 A. Yes.

 

 

21 Q. What was that with regard to, if you know?

 

 

22 A. I believe there was a water resources

 

 

23 program provision of support for work in Florida Bay.

 

 

24 Q. Do you know how much that was?

 

 

25 A. No.

 

238

 

 

 

 

1 Q. Another source you mentioned was other

 

 

2 agencies of government.

 

 

3 A. Yes.

 

 

4 Q. Have other agencies of government provided

 

 

5 any funding to the park for fiscal year '93?

 

 

6 A. Fiscal year '93?

 

 

7 Q. Or '92, if you know.

 

 

8 A. Other federal agencies, I believe, have

 

 

9 included, yes, the answer is we have received funds

 

 

10 from other federal agencies that I am aware of.

 

 

11 Q. For '93 or '92?

 

 

12 A. '92, I believe.

 

 

13 Q. What agencies were those?

 

 

14 A. Corps of Engineers, EPA.

 

 

15 Q. Any others?

 

 

16 A. There may have been.

 

 

17 Q. Is that two different agencies you just

 

 

18 mentioned?

 

 

19 A. Yes.

 

 

20 Q. What do they provide funding for?

 

 

21 A. I believe that the EPA provided some funds

 

 

22 for work to occur in the park associated with

 

 

23 monitoring global climate change, and I believe that

 

 

24 the Corps of Engineers provided some funds associated

 

 

25 with biological research into the effects and

 

239

 

 

 

 

1 implications of changes to the C-111 canal drainage

 

 

2 in preparation for a revised GDM for that basin.

 

 

3 Q. Has the Department of Justice provided any

 

 

4 funding, for example, to the Research Center for

 

 

5 research projects that might be of use in the water

 

 

6 quality litigation?

 

 

7 MS. PONZOLI: Counsel, let me think about

 

 

8 this, if you are going to into privileged areas. I

 

 

9 want to think about it. Just give me a minute.

 

 

10 (Pause)

 

 

11 MS. PONZOLI: I think you are in a very

 

 

12 difficult area, Mr. Gaines, in the relationship

 

 

13 between what basically I guess is the law firm for

 

 

14 the client and the client.

 

 

15 I don't honestly have a real good feel for

 

 

16 whether this is a privileged area or not. I feel it

 

 

17 is but I am not sure that you aren't entitled to some

 

 

18 information.

 

 

19 I would prefer, if you would hold your

 

 

20 question on this until after lunch, I would honestly

 

 

21 like to speak with someone at my office and get like

 

 

22 a second opinion before stopping you and just saying,

 

 

23 no, you can't answer this or letting you just go

 

 

24 forward, I would be more comfortable if I could have

 

 

25 that opportunity to confer with someone.

 

240

 

 

 

 

1 MR. GAINES: Just so I understand, is it

 

 

2 correct that you would object and instruct the

 

 

3 witness not to answer as to the substance or the

 

 

4 subject matter of any research programs that are

 

 

5 going on currently with regard to this litigation

 

 

6 that haven't yet been completed? Is that a correct

 

 

7 understanding of what your position is?

 

 

8 MS. PONZOLI: No. This is an odd way for

 

 

9 this to come up. I don't know that it has ever come

 

 

10 up this way before. And I really don't have in my

 

 

11 own mind a good feel for the parameters of what you

 

 

12 would be entitled to and what you are not. I really

 

 

13 would prefer a second opinion.

 

 

14 Normally you can go so far but not

 

 

15 further. Where that so far is, I am having real

 

 

16 difficulty. I am deciding.

 

 

17 MR. GAINES: The scope of my current

 

 

18 question is limited to whether the DOJ has provided

 

 

19 any funding to the Research Center for research to

 

 

20 the litigation, it doesn't go --

 

 

21 MS. PONZOLI: That is the first step.

 

 

22 Before we go, first step or step and a half, on to

 

 

23 step two, I would like to sort out the scope of what

 

 

24 we feel is appropriate and then let you go as far as

 

 

25 we feel you have a right to go.

 

241

 

 

 

 

1 MR. GAINES: I will take that at least for

 

 

2 now as a temporary instruction to the witness not to

 

 

3 answer that question and we will determine after

 

 

4 lunch if that instruction is a permanent one or

 

 

5 retracted.

 

 

6 MS. PONZOLI: Sure, and then you will be

 

 

7 allowed to go as far as we think it is appropriate

 

 

8 and we will sort it out however we have to

 

 

9 downstream. But that is only a couple of hours and I

 

 

10 don't think we will be finished by lunchtime. Do

 

 

11 you?

 

 

12 MR. GAINES: No.

 

 

13 MS. PONZOLI: I didn't either.

 

 

14 MS. PONZOLI: Would you read back to me

 

 

15 the precise question so I will know the first step, I

 

 

16 will have it accurate.

 

 

17 (The question referred to was

 

 

18 thereupon read by the reporter

 

 

19 as above recorded)

 

 

20 MR. GAINES: And just to cure any possible

 

 

21 infirmity with that question, the phrase "might be of

 

 

22 use," I understand, is vague and potentially

 

 

23 objectionable but I think you understand what I am

 

 

24 driving at here.

 

 

25 MS. PONZOLI: I think I understand too. I

 

242

 

 

 

 

1 am dealing more with the substantive issue of what

 

 

2 you can get into between the client and the law firm.

 

 

3 BY MR. GAINES:

 

 

4 Q. Let me ask you, Superintendent Ring, to

 

 

5 look at the second page of Exhibit No. 5, and there

 

 

6 is a list of projects here, it has two titles, one is

 

 

7 remaining unfunded projects after $1.1 million

 

 

8 increase and it appears to be, it is table 3 from

 

 

9 some publication or document, it states, partial list

 

 

10 of underfunded projects from pre-proposal list. Do

 

 

11 you have any familiarity with this list of projects?

 

 

12 A. Some.

 

 

13 Q. Where it says remaining unfunded projects

 

 

14 after $1.1 million increase, I take it that means

 

 

15 that with the $1.1 million increase these projects

 

 

16 would still not be funded with what was the proposed

 

 

17 $1.1 million increase, is that correct?

 

 

18 A. I believe it characterizes that kind of

 

 

19 relationship with the preceding page.

 

 

20 Q. Did you have any connection with the

 

 

21 preparation of this Exhibit No. 5?

 

 

22 A. It was prepared by others on my staff.

 

 

23 Q. During your tenure, I mean, after you came

 

 

24 on board at the park?

 

 

25 A. I don't know that.

 

243

 

 

 

 

1 Q. Do you know whether this Exhibit No. 5 was

 

 

2 transmitted to --

 

 

3 A. Are you referring to the entire exhibit or

 

 

4 just the one page of it?

 

 

5 Q. I was referring to both pages. And my

 

 

6 understanding was they were connected in some way but

 

 

7 maybe you can clear it up for me.

 

 

8 Do you know, what, for example, the first

 

 

9 page, what is this page? Where did it go? What was

 

 

10 its purpose?

 

 

11 A. It was prepared at my request.

 

 

12 Q. What was done with it? Was this

 

 

13 transmitted to the region or to Congress or someone

 

 

14 considering the request for additional funding?

 

 

15 A. It provided me with a summary of

 

 

16 information with regards to the implications of the

 

 

17 base increase proposal in the President's budget for

 

 

18 fiscal year '93.

 

 

19 Q. Was this transmitted to anyone outside the

 

 

20 park in connection with the request for additional

 

 

21 funding?

 

 

22 A. I used it in conjunction with a variety of

 

 

23 discussions I had concerning the proposal in the

 

 

24 President's budget.

 

 

25 Q. So this was a document that enabled you to

 

244

 

 

 

 

1 say, here's the extra funding we are requesting and

 

 

2 here is how we are going to use it or here is how we

 

 

3 propose to use it?

 

 

4 A. In a very summary fashion, yes.

 

 

5 Q. And was page 2 of this Exhibit 5 also used

 

 

6 in the same fashion by you?

 

 

7 A. Yes.

 

 

8 Q. Is there a relationship between --

 

 

9 A. Excuse me, I have a question. You

 

 

10 referred to page 5.

 

 

11 Q. No, page 2 of Exhibit 5. That is the page

 

 

12 that states remaining unfunded projects after $1.1

 

 

13 million increase.

 

 

14 A. Sorry. Obviously the caffeine hasn't

 

 

15 connected yet.

 

 

16 Q. Would you like to take a break?

 

 

17 A. No, that is fine. Let's continue.

 

 

18 Q. There is a list of projects under category

 

 

19 B here on the first page that would be intended to

 

 

20 benefit from the increased funding for fiscal year

 

 

21 '93 and then another list of projects on the second

 

 

22 page that would still remain unfunded.

 

 

23 Can you tell me what the relationship is

 

 

24 between that list, those two lists of projects taken

 

 

25 together and the project statement sheets contained

 

245

 

 

 

 

1 in the resource management plan which is Exhibit 4?

 

 

2 A. No.

 

 

3 Q. No, you don't know what the relationship

 

 

4 is, if any?

 

 

5 A. I cannot describe the relationship between

 

 

6 them.

 

 

7 Q. Let me ask you this: If I was to list all

 

 

8 of the projects here from the resource management

 

 

9 plan and put it down next to these two combined lists

 

 

10 on the fiscal year '93 Exhibit 5, would projects that

 

 

11 are from the management plan that aren't contained on

 

 

12 either one of these lists, can I assume those were

 

 

13 funded or would that not be a safe assumption?

 

 

14 THE WITNESS: Could you read that back to

 

 

15 me?

 

 

16 (The question referred to was

 

 

17 thereupon read by the reporter

 

 

18 as above recorded)

 

 

19 A. It would not be a safe assumption.

 

 

20 Q. The reason I am asking is, it seems to me

 

 

21 that if you take the Exhibit 5 projects, these are

 

 

22 all projects that remain unfunded absent a $1.1

 

 

23 million increase and even with the $1.1 million

 

 

24 increase the second page is still unfunded.

 

 

25 So that brings up the question, what

 

246

 

 

 

 

1 happened with the projects in the resource management

 

 

2 plan? Would some of them have justed dropped out of

 

 

3 the picture altogether and been abandoned as proposed

 

 

4 projects?

 

 

5 A. I don't know.

 

 

6 Q. Who would know the answer to that?

 

 

7 A. With regard to any specific project?

 

 

8 Q. Yes.

 

 

9 A. My research staff.

 

 

10 Q. Dr. Soukup and his staff?

 

 

11 A. Yes.

 

 

12 Q. With regard to the first one here on the

 

 

13 project statement sheets, the East Everglades Exotic

 

 

14 Vegetation Control.

 

 

15 A. Yes.

 

 

16 Q. Did you already state you don't know

 

 

17 whether that has gone forward or not?

 

 

18 A. No, I didn't state -- I don't believe I

 

 

19 stated that I did not know whether it has gone

 

 

20 forward. I believe I stated I did not know whether

 

 

21 or not any funds had been allocated for it.

 

 

22 Q. Maybe I have been making an assumption.

 

 

23 Is there a relationship between a project being

 

 

24 funded and a project actually going forward?

 

 

25 A. Is there a relationship? Of course.

 

247

 

 

 

 

1 Q. Do you know whether or not this project

 

 

2 has gone forward?

 

 

3 A. I believe funds have been requested to

 

 

4 accomplish aspects of this project.

 

 

5 Q. Has that request been granted?

 

 

6 A. We have not received any Park Service

 

 

7 funds this year associated with this project.

 

 

8 Q. As I understand it, the resource

 

 

9 management plan relates to fiscal year '92, is that

 

 

10 correct?

 

 

11 A. No.

 

 

12 Q. It relates to fiscal year '93?

 

 

13 A. No.

 

 

14 Q. What does it relate to, any particular

 

 

15 fiscal year?

 

 

16 A. The management of resources

 

 

17 programatically within the national park.

 

 

18 Q. When it says proposal date at the bottom

 

 

19 of this first page, '92, what does that indicate?

 

 

20 A. I would assume that it is a reference to

 

 

21 the time at which the project was first proposed.

 

 

22 Q. With regard to funding of projects to the

 

 

23 Research Center, you talked about some categories of

 

 

24 base funds that are provided to the park. Out of the

 

 

25 base funds, we had three categories, land

 

248

 

 

 

 

1 acquisition, operations and construction. Am I

 

 

2 correct in assuming that neither the land acquisition

 

 

3 nor the construction funds are available for the

 

 

4 Research Center to do research projects with?

 

 

5 A. It is incorrect to refer to all three

 

 

6 categories as base funds.

 

 

7 Q. The base funds are the operations?

 

 

8 A. Correct.

 

 

9 Q. Am I correct in assuming that only the

 

 

10 operations funds among the funds allocated by