1

1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA

SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )

3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and )

WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )

4 )

Petitioners, )

5 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

6 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

7 Respondents. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., )

UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )

9 and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )

Petitioners, )

10 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

11 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

12 Respondents. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

13 FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )

ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )

14 W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )

and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

15 Petitioners, )

vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040

16 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

17 of Florida; et al., )

Respondents. )

18 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

100 Southeast 2nd Street

19 Miami, Florida

November 23, 1992

20 9:15 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.

21 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD GETTINGS RING

22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered

23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for

24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of

25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause.

1 APPEARANCES

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and

3 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC.

4 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, P.A.

One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636

5 Two South Biscayne Boulevard

Miami, Florida

6 BY: JONATHAN L. GAINES, ESQ.

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR

8 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

9 SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, ESQ.

THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQ.

10 Assistant United States Attorneys

155 North Miami Avenue

11 Suite 600

Miami, Florida 33130

13 INDEX

14 Witness Direct

RICHARD GETTINGS RING

By Mr. Gaines: 3

EXHIBIT PAGE DESCRIPTION

1 26 November 22, 1992 editorial from the

19 Miami Herald

1 Thereupon --

2 RICHARD GETTINGS RING

3 was called as a witness and having been duly sworn,

4 was examined and testified as follows:

5 DIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. GAINES:

7 Q. Sir, please state your name.

8 A. My name is Richard Gettings Ring.

9 Q. You are currently the superintendent of

10 Everglades National Park, is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Ring, my name is Jonathan Gaines. We

13 are here today to take your deposition in the

14 administrative proceedings which are a challenge to

15 the SWIM plan, SWIM plan of the South Florida Water

16 Management District. I represent the petitioners

17 Florida Sugar Cane League, Inc., United States Sugar

18 Corporation and New South Hope, Inc. I will be

19 asking you some questions today about the park and

20 your involvement there and with the SWIM plan. Let

21 me ask you if you ever have had your deposition taken

22 before.

23 A. Yes, once.

24 Q. When was that?

25 A. I believe 1977.

1 Q. Where did that occur?

2 A. In Washington, D.C.

3 Q. What type of proceeding was that done in

4 association with?

5 A. A civil proceeding against the United

6 States and the National Park Service.

7 Q. Do you recall who the parties to that

8 proceeding were, who the plaintiff was?

9 A. I recall the individual's name. I don't

10 necessarily recall the corporate entity that he was

11 operating under.

12 Q. What was the name?

13 A. Robert Van Klyve, I believe it is K L Y V E.

14 Q. Can you recall generally what that case in

15 1977 had to do with?

16 A. It had to do with a termination of a

17 cooperative agreement between the National Park

18 Service and Mr. Van Klyve.

19 Q. What kind of agreement was that?

20 A. It was a cooperative agreement.

21 Q. What did it provide for? What was the

22 subject matter of it?

23 A. It provided for the use and occupancy of

24 park-owned facilities in exchange for provision of

25 arts instruction and public demonstrations, arts or

1 crafts instructions, public demonstrations and

2 programs.

3 Q. What park was that associated with?

4 A. The administrative unit was the George

5 Washington Memorial Parkway. It was a site within

6 that.

7 Q. Do you know if that deposition was ever

8 transcribed?

9 A. I do not.

10 Q. Did you ever testify in court in that

11 case?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. Do you know what the resolution was of

14 that case?

15 A. The termination decision was upheld.

16 Q. That is the only previous occasion in

17 which you have had your deposition taken, is that

18 correct?

19 A. That's all I recall.

20 Q. Let me just ask you during the deposition

21 if you don't understand any of my questions or you

22 need me to rephrase it, make it clearer, please let

23 me know and I will try to do so.

24 And I would also ask that you answer out

25 loud, that you don't speculate, just give me your

1 factual knowledge and your opinions as an expert, but

2 I will ask you not to speculate.

3 When did you become superintendent of

4 Everglades National Park?

5 A. The official date on the records or the

6 day that I actually began duty?

7 Q. Give me both.

8 A. I believe the date on the records where I

9 came on to the payroll of Everglades National Park

10 was April 6.

11 Q. Of what year, sir?

12 A. 1992.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. And the day that I actually arrived and

15 began to work was -- I will refer to a calendar and I

16 will give it to you exactly.

17 (Pause)

18 A. April 20.

19 Q. If you could, please, I would like to go

20 through a rundown of your educational and

21 professional background. So I think the easiest way

22 to do this would be to start with where and when you

23 graduated from high school and we will take it

24 forward from there.

25 A. I graduated from high school in June of

1 1965 at Nether Providence High School in Delaware

2 County, Pennsylvania.

3 Q. Upon graduation from high school, what did

4 you do next?

5 A. Aside from working a summer job, I entered

6 college in the fall of 1965.

7 Q. What was the summer job, if you can

8 recall?

9 A. I don't recall exactly. I believe it was

10 working in a restaurant.

11 Q. Where did you attend college, sir?

12 A. Penn State University at the main campus

13 and state college.

14 Q. You graduated from Penn State?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. In June of 1969.

18 Q. What degree did you obtain there?

19 A. I obtained a degree of bachelor of arts in

20 political science.

21 Q. In your undergraduate education did you

22 have any courses of a scientific nature?

23 A. Very few.

24 Q. Did you specialize or concentrate in that

25 area at all in your education, the scientific area?

1 A. No. Insofar -- excuse me, I would like to

2 ask for some clarification. What do you mean by

3 scientific area? The degree I received was in

4 political science.

5 Q. I am referring more to chemistry, biology,

6 environmental --

7 A. Physical science.

8 Q. Physical sciences.

9 A. I did not specialize in physical sciences.

10 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a

11 scientist?

12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

13 Q. Taking out the political science meaning

14 of science, would you describe yourself as a

15 scientist?

16 A. I would describe myself as a national park

17 manager.

18 Q. Upon your graduation from Penn State what

19 did you do next?

20 A. I worked in England.

21 Q. Was that during the summer after your

22 graduation?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. What employment did you have there?

25 A. I worked for the Third US Air Force in a

1 capacity of counselor in charge of aquatics programs

2 at a camp for military dependents.

3 Q. This was like a summer camp for children

4 of military personnel, is that correct?

5 A. Primarily.

6 Q. When you say aquatics program, is that

7 like swimming and boating and fishing and that type

8 of thing?

9 A. Those and in addition I was involved in

10 supervising whitewater canoe excursions to Wales and

11 also supervised horse riding excursions in the New

12 Forest.

13 Q. Where is the New Forest?

14 A. South central England, north of the Isle

15 of White.

16 Q. Is that near Stonehenge?

17 A. South and somewhat east of Stonehenge.

18 Q. Sounds like a great job. How long did

19 that last?

20 A. It lasted until the fall of 1969.

21 Q. And then you left that job and moved on to

22 something else?

23 A. I returned to the United States.

24 Q. What did you do at that time?

25 A. I was drafted.

1 Q. Did you serve in the military?

2 A. Rather than report for induction I

3 enlisted into the United States Army into the officer

4 candidate program.

5 Q. How long were you in the Army?

6 A. From November 1969 to November 1971.

7 Q. During the two-year tour of duty there

8 what rank did you attain?

9 A. The highest enlisted rank I attained was

10 specialist fourth class.

11 Q. Where does that fit in on the hierarchy of

12 ranks in the Army?

13 A. It is a technical grade comparable in pay

14 to a corporal.

15 Q. Did you specialize in any particular area

16 in your service in the Army?

17 A. Small arms and demolitions as part of a

18 combat engineer unit.

19 Q. I take it you received training in that

20 area from the Army?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Where were you stationed during your

23 tenure in the Army?

24 A. Several locations.

25 Q. Briefly tell me what they were.

1 A. Fort Dix, New Jersey, Fort Leonard Wood,

2 Missouri, Fort Gordon, Georgia, Fort Benning,

3 Georgia, Fort Carson, Colorado.

4 Q. As a result of the training you received

5 from the Army did you receive any additional degree

6 beyond your bachelor of arts degree?

7 A. I received no university degree. I

8 certainly received certifications attesting to the

9 training that I received while I was in the Service.

10 Q. Are there different areas where you are

11 certified or were certified by the Army?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you recall what they are?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Would it have been several different

16 areas?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did they all have to do with the small

19 arms and demolitions area?

20 A. They had to do with a variety of different

21 military skills for a combat unit.

22 Q. In November of 1971 you received an

23 honorable discharge from the Army or you left the

24 Army in some fashion?

25 A. I was released from active duty.

1 Q. What does that mean?

2 A. Exactly what it says.

3 Q. Were you no longer in the Army at that

4 point? Were you a member of the Reserves?

5 A. I was a member of the active Reserves.

6 Q. How long were you a member in the active

7 Reserves?

8 A. Two years.

9 Q. Were you ever called up to duty during

10 that two-year period?

11 A. Once.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. It was one of 1972 or 1973, I don't recall

14 which year.

15 Q. Where were you stationed during that

16 period?

17 A. Camp Drum, New York.

18 Q. How long did that last?

19 A. It was a two-week call-up.

20 Q. What was the purpose of that? What did

21 you do during the two weeks?

22 A. I trained National Guard and Reserve

23 personnel.

24 Q. Other than this two-week call-up what were

25 you doing with yourself during that two years when

1 you came back from the Army? Let's start with the

2 fall of 1971. You arrived back in the US. What did

3 you do then?

4 A. I visited and stayed with family.

5 Q. For how long?

6 A. Through the holidays.

7 Q. Where are you from, incidentally,

8 originally?

9 A. I was born in Paterson, New Jersey. Both

10 my families are from upstate New York.

11 Q. Prior to April of 1992 have you ever lived

12 in Florida before?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Had you ever been to Florida before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On how many occasions?

17 A. I don't know exactly. I would say in the

18 range of a dozen times.

19 Q. For what purposes were these visits to

20 Florida? Vacations or something to do with your

21 employment with the Park Service or can you describe

22 for me that?

23 A. A combination of family vacations when I

24 was a child, visits to family members who lived in

25 Florida and visits to friends employed in the

1 National Park Service working in Florida.

2 Q. Would those include friends employed at

3 Everglades National Park?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you have occasion to visit the park on

6 those visits?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was the first time you ever visited

9 Everglades National Park?

10 A. In the early eighties.

11 Q. Who were you down here to see at that

12 time?

13 A. Several individuals.

14 Q. Can you tell me who they were? I am

15 talking about friends employed by the Park Service,

16 not family members.

17 A. Maureen Finnerty, I recall.

18 Q. She was employed by the Park Service?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In what capacity?

21 A. Assistant superintendent of Everglades

22 National Park.

23 Q. This visit in the early eighties when you

24 first visited Everglades National Park, how much time

25 did you actually spend at the park during that visit?

1 A. A day.

2 Q. Did you get a tour of the park?

3 A. I toured some facilities.

4 Q. Any other visits to the park prior to

5 1992?

6 A. Could you be more specific in terms of

7 prior to the calendar year 1992, prior to my arrival

8 to assume the duties?

9 Q. I am saying prior to calendar year 1992

10 because I am assuming there might have been some

11 process where you came down and visited in connection

12 with taking over the duties. I didn't want to

13 include that in this question.

14 A. Then the answer is no.

15 Q. Am I correct in assuming that there were

16 some visits to the park by you, a visit or visits

17 prior to you assuming the duties in 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. We will get to that. Let's go back to the

20 fall of 1971 when you a came back from the Army and

21 spent the holidays with your family.

22 What did you do next either professionally

23 or with regard to your education?

24 A. I enrolled in a graduate program at the

25 University of Rhode Island.

1 Q. In what area?

2 A. In political science.

3 Q. Was this to work toward your master's?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Did you receive a master's degree?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. I left the University of Rhode Island

9 after one semester to accept temporary employment

10 with the National Park Service.

11 Q. Have you been employed by the National

12 Park Service since that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So much for temporary employment, I guess.

15 So you did one semester of work toward

16 your master's at that time. Did you ever go back and

17 complete it?

18 A. I did not go back and do any further

19 graduate work at the University of Rhode Island.

20 Q. Did you do further graduate work at other

21 institutions?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was that?

24 A. George Washington University.

25 Q. During what time period?

1 A. Between June of 1972 and I believe the

2 summer of 1975. I am not entirely sure. I don't

3 recall the exact semesters in which I took course

4 work.

5 Q. Was that on a sporadic basis while you

6 were doing other work for the Park Service?

7 A. It was on a part-time basis while I was

8 employed full time with the National Park Service.

9 Q. At that time were you able to complete

10 your master's?

11 A. I did not complete a degree program at

12 George Washington University.

13 Q. Is that what you were working toward there

14 at George Washington, was your master's in political

15 science?

16 A. No, I was working towards a master's in

17 public administration.

18 Q. You had changed your area?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. You stated you didn't receive that degree

21 at that time from GW. Did you at any time receive a

22 degree?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you still have any intention to

25 complete that work?

1 A. No, I do not.

2 Q. Have you had any other postgraduate work

3 or education beyond what you have told me about,

4 Rhode Island and GW?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was that?

7 A. I have had a significant amount of course

8 work associated with my employment with the National

9 Park Service.

10 Q. Are those listed on your CV, those

11 courses?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. GAINES: Do we have a copy of his CV?

14 MS. PONZOLI: All expert witnesses'

15 personal resumes or CVs or whatever they have were

16 provided when we exchanged expert witness lists.

17 And, yes, his was provided.

18 BY MR. GAINES:

19 Q. Was the course work that you have had

20 associated with your employment with the National

21 Park Service, was that done at any one institution or

22 numerous institutions?

23 A. Numerous.

24 Q. Have these courses occurred over the past

25 20 years?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many, ballpark figure, courses are we

3 talking about?

4 A. Off the top of my head, I don't know the

5 exact number. I would say 30 to 40.

6 Q. Among those 30 to 40 courses were they

7 mainly concentrating on management and administration

8 type subjects or were there other subjects as well

9 that you took courses in?

10 A. They were a variety.

11 Q. Did you take any courses related to

12 scientific issues such as we discussed earlier, water

13 quality issues, environmental issues, biological

14 issues?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell me what courses you took of a

17 scientific nature?

18 A. I can't give you specific course titles.

19 I took a number of courses associated with the

20 management of national park natural and cultural

21 resources.

22 Q. What types of scientific areas did you get

23 into in any of those courses?

24 A. Areas pertaining to the full range of

25 natural and cultural issues confronting the National

1 Park Service.

2 Q. Were the courses specifically geared

3 toward the National Park Service perspective,

4 managing national parks?

5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.

6 You may answer.

7 Q. You can answer.

8 A. Primarily.

9 Q. Did you take any courses, what I would

10 call hard science courses, like let's say on water

11 chemistry, for example, did you take any courses

12 where you covered areas concerning water chemistry?

13 A. There were portions of a number of courses

14 that pertained to specific natural resource

15 conditions.

16 Q. Including water chemistry? I am just

17 using that as an example. It is not a magic

18 question.

19 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean

20 when you say, was a topic like that a part of the

21 course work. The answer is -- my answer is that,

22 yes, that and many other topics related to physical

23 resource conditions and issues were topics of various

24 training courses that I participated in.

25 Q. The reason I am asking these questions on

1 this particular area, you have testified that your

2 background is primarily in management and

3 administration and those types of areas and that you

4 wouldn't describe yourself as a scientist.

5 A. I did not say that.

6 Q. You did not say that.

7 Would you describe yourself as a

8 scientist?

9 A. Certainly. Excuse me, I would say that I

10 certainly have significant amount of scientific

11 training.

12 Q. Are you including in that political

13 science?

14 A. Certainly.

15 Q. Other than your political science

16 training, which I am certainly not downgrading, but

17 other than that training would you say that you have

18 a significant amount of scientific training?

19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

20 You may answer.

21 A. I have a significant amount of training in

22 scientific method, regardless of what topic that is

23 applied to.

24 Q. What do you mean when you say scientific

25 method?

1 A. The process by which facts are discovered.

2 Q. When you talk about that, scientific

3 method, are you talking about the process of

4 conducting experiments or gathering empirical data

5 and obtaining results that can be reproduced by

6 others, that type of thing?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is the scientific method as we are just

9 talking about it, is that applicable to the area of

10 political science as well as the physical sciences?

11 A. Scientific methodology is applicable to

12 both.

13 Q. So you received training in the scientific

14 method both in your undergraduate political science

15 studies and in your postgraduate courses taken in

16 connection with the national park issues, is that

17 accurate?

18 A. I would say that to varying degrees I

19 received training in scientific method and the

20 application of that method throughout the training

21 that I received in college and with the Park Service.

22 Q. Are you a proponent of the use of the

23 scientific method in approaching issues and problems

24 facing the national parks, Everglades National Park

25 in particular?

1 A. Certainly.

2 Q. As the superintendent of Everglades

3 National Park would you insist that the scientific

4 method be utilized and applied in addressing the

5 issues and problems of the park?

6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

7 You may answer.

8 A. I would desire that it be applied.

9 Q. Why is that?

10 A. The scientific process has a significant

11 potential for bringing all available facts to bear on

12 administrative and policy decisions.

13 Q. Have you in your tenure with the National

14 Park Service had occasion to observe instances where

15 the scientific method is displaced or competes with

16 politically driven solutions to problems?

17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

18 You may answer.

19 A. In my experience, all public policy

20 decisions that I have been associated with usually

21 have some element of both.

22 Q. Have you ever had occasion to observe

23 instances where the political aspects of a decision

24 have outweighed the scientific aspects and produced

25 what you felt was an inappropriate result?

1 A. There have been a number of occasions

2 where I have not personally agreed with a policy

3 decision that has been made.

4 Q. Can you give me any examples of that?

5 A. I can give you an example from Alaska.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. Where a decision was made to exchange

8 lands within the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

9 subsurface estate or surface estate within the Gates

10 of the Arctic National Park and Reserve and the

11 decision was made to do it by the Department of

12 Interior in discussions with the Arctic Slope

13 Regional Corporation and the National Park Service

14 was then informed of the decision and told to proceed

15 with the selection of lands to accomplish it.

16 Q. What was your disagreement with that

17 decision?

18 A. The decision to exchange the lands was

19 made before any assessment was accomplished of the

20 implications or the impacts of such an exchange

21 either on the national park, the local village

22 corporation around which the lands were being

23 selected within the park or on the Arctic National

24 Wildlife Refuge.

25 Q. Did the exchange occur?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Your feeling was that the decision to make

3 that exchange was politically driven, is that

4 correct?

5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

6 A. I have no idea what drove the decision.

7 Q. But you didn't --

8 A. And I wouldn't speculate.

9 Q. Was it your feeling at the time that there

10 hadn't been an adequate scientific assessment of the

11 impact, is that what you stated?

12 A. There had been none that I was aware of.

13 There had been no assessment of the impact at all,

14 scientific or otherwise, prior to the decision being

15 made.

16 Q. Do you know why the Department of the

17 Interior supported a decision like this when there

18 was no assessment of these impacts taking place?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with

21 anyone in Interior about that?

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. What was the tenor of those discussions,

24 what was their response?

25 A. I can't recall specifics of those

1 discussions. The basic thrust was that the decision

2 to proceed with the exchange had been made and our

3 responsibilities were narrow insofar as selecting

4 specific acreage to be involved and to provide an

5 assessment of the impact to support the decision.

6 MR. GAINES: I want to mark this as

7 Exhibit 1, please.

8 (November 22, 1992 editorial from the

9 Miami Herald was marked as Ring Deposition Exhibit 1

10 for identification)

11 BY MR. GAINES:

12 Q. Let me show you, Superintendent Ring, what

13 we have just marked as Exhibit No. 1. While we were

14 on the issue of the interrelationship of science and

15 politics, this came to mind.

16 This is a copy of an editorial in

17 yesterday's Miami Herald concerning a wetlands manual

18 being proposed by Vice President Quayle's Council on

19 Competitiveness and the underlined portion here

20 notes, "Tossing aside scientific definitions of

21 wetlands, they substituted political definitions.

22 Parts of Everglades National Park can't meet the

23 Council's political definition of wetlands."

24 Did you see this editorial yesterday?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. Are you familiar with the issues being

2 discussed in here?

3 A. Somewhat.

4 Q. Have you had any input into this Council

5 on Competitiveness manual on wetlands?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Have you had any communication with

8 anybody associated with that manual?

9 A. My staff.

10 Q. Your staff has had communication or you

11 have had communication with your staff?

12 A. I have had communication with my staff.

13 Q. Is your staff involved in the manual being

14 discussed here?

15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

16 A. Could you clarify that?

17 Q. I asked if you had communications with

18 anybody associated with that manual and you said your

19 staff. You discussed the manual with your staff?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is your staff providing any kind of input

22 or communication to the Council on Competitiveness

23 regarding this manual?

24 A. I believe at the time the manual was being

25 developed and proposed there was a solicitation of

0*0*0*

1 review comments from the field units of the National

2 Park Service and that comments were developed and

3 submitted.

4 Q. Are you aware of the statement that parts

5 of Everglades National Park can't meet the Council's

6 political definition of wetlands, are you aware of

7 that fact or is that true as far as you know?

8 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I mean,

9 this sentence, Mr. Gaines, makes an assumption that I

10 don't think you have established in the record.

11 MR. GAINES: I am asking him if it is true

12 as far as he knows.

13 MS. PONZOLI: You are asking him the

14 physical fact, can the Everglades National Park not

15 meet the manual's definition of wetlands, is that the

16 question?

17 MR. GAINES: Yes, that is the current

18 question.

19 MS. PONZOLI: Okay.

20 BY MR. GAINES:

21 Q. If you know.

22 A. If you are referring to the definition

23 that was published for public comment last year, I

24 believe the assessment of the park staff was that a

25 number of areas within Everglades National Park would

0*0*0*

1 not qualify as wetlands under the proposed

2 definitions.

3 Q. Do you recall what that proposed

4 definition was? Did you see it at the time?

5 A. I saw the proposal, but at that time I was

6 not at Everglades National Park and the wetlands

7 issue was not a critical issue for my attention. So

8 I have a general understanding of it but I don't know

9 the specifics.

10 Q. So you don't recall the specific

11 definition as we sit here today?

12 A. No. I only recall that in being briefed

13 by my staff at Everglades, they indicated to me that

14 an assessment of that definition in relation to the

15 Everglades was done and that a determination that

16 certain areas within the park would no longer qualify

17 as wetlands was made and those comments were

18 forwarded.

19 Q. Is there a definition of wetlands that you

20 would prefer or do you have a definition of wetlands

21 that you use?

22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

23 A. We use the current definition established

24 by EPA and the Corps of Engineers.

25 Q. Do you know what that definition is?

0*0*0*

1 A. I can't recite the definition for you.

2 Q. If you wanted to go and look it up, how

3 would you do it?

4 A. I would request my research and resource

5 management staff to pull it from our files.

6 Q. What is your understanding of the

7 percentage of Everglades National Park that meets the

8 current definition of wetlands established by the EPA

9 and Corps of Engineers?

10 A. Almost all of it.

11 Q. Close to a hundred percent?

12 A. Close. There are areas of developed use

13 and there may be higher areas of pine forest and tree

14 islands that may not be considered wetlands.

15 Q. Other than those areas, do you know or do

16 you recall what types of areas of the park would not

17 be considered wetlands under this wetlands manual

18 discussed in the editorial?

19 A. My understanding is that it would be those

20 areas which were not -- which did not have standing

21 water on them or were fully saturated with water, the

22 soils were fully saturated with water for significant

23 periods of the year.

24 Q. Was there to your recollection a specific

25 time frame included in the definition, time period

0*0*0*

1 for saturation in order to qualify as wetlands?

2 A. I believe there was a definition that

3 characterized that time period, but I couldn't tell

4 you specifically what it was.

5 Q. Would it be your understanding that under

6 that type of definition of wetlands the

7 characterization of certain areas of the park as

8 wetlands or not would depend on the amount of water

9 delivered to those areas through the Central and

10 South Florida Flood Control Project?

11 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

12 A. I believe the definition is as I stated.

13 It made a distinction on the period of time during

14 the year there was water saturation or standing water

15 on those lands.

16 Q. I understand that. My question is, to

17 your knowledge are there areas of the park that are

18 now dry or don't have standing water that

19 historically would have but for the operation of the

20 Central and South Florida Flood Control Project.

21 MS. PONZOLI: May I have that question

22 again, please.

23 (The question referred to was

24 thereupon read by the reporter

25 as above recorded)

0*0*0*

1 A. It is my understanding that the operation

2 of the Central and South Florida Flood Control

3 Project has altered natural water flows affecting the

4 Everglades system including the national park.

5 Q. Is it also your understanding that this

6 alteration of the natural water flows has resulted in

7 some portions of the park being dry when previously

8 they would have been wet?

9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

10 A. I would say that it has altered historical

11 wet and dry patterns.

12 Q. What is your current understanding of the

13 status of this wetlands manual that is discussed in

14 the editorial?

15 A. My understanding is that the proposed

16 redefinitions were issued for public comment by EPA.

17 Those comments were received and have undergone

18 assessment, and that EPA will address those comments

19 and issue final definitions as part of a ruling in

20 process.

21 Q. If the proposed definition of wetlands is

22 enacted such that some portions of the park are no

23 longer defined as wetlands, what is your

24 understanding as to the significance of that event

25 for the park?

0*0*0*

1 A. I think it would be a significant event

2 and at the very least it would affect the regulatory

3 evaluation of any action or activity that occurred on

4 those lands.

5 Q. Would it in your mind open up portions of

6 the park to development?

7 A. It would not open any federally-owned

8 property within the boundaries of the national park.

9 Q. What about property within the area, the

10 proposed expansion area for the park, would any of

11 that property be subject to development as you

12 understand it under this wetlands manual?

13 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to

14 form. I think we are going further and further

15 afield from where we started.

16 A. I wouldn't want to speculate on the

17 actions or intentions or prerogatives of a private

18 landowner.

19 Q. Have you and your staff analyzed this

20 proposed manual and the proposed new definition of

21 wetlands to the extent that you have evaluated what

22 the impact would be if it was adopted?

23 A. Again, the assessment of the proposal and

24 the comments on it occurred prior to my arrival here

25 so an assessment did occur and it specifically

0*0*0*

1 addressed what areas of the park would fall within

2 the definitions.

3 Q. Do you know whether that analysis

4 addressed the expansion area as well?

5 A. I assume it did.

6 Q. Have you yourself looked at that analysis

7 or studied it?

8 A. Briefly.

9 Q. I assume that was in the process of

10 studying a number of items and documents as you came

11 on board at the park, is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Is it your feeling based on what you have

14 learned from your staff and from what you have read

15 and analyzed with regard to this issue that the

16 wetlands definition in this manual is as the paper

17 here says, a political definition as opposed to a

18 scientific one?

19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't

20 think that he was called as an expert to start

21 issuing opinions on which are political and which are

22 scientific or which mix they are, by the National

23 Park Service. It is a relatively narrow area of

24 expertise, in one sense. And we have had pretty

25 lengthy questioning on this particular line.

0*0*0*

1 MR. GAINES: My understanding is that

2 Superintendent Ring is listed as an expert as to

3 objectives and priorities and identification of

4 specific external threats to Everglades National Park

5 and its resources.

6 And my question in this area is whether a

7 political definition of wetlands such as this, if in

8 fact that is what it is, would constitute an external

9 threat to the resources of Everglades National Park

10 in Superintendent Ring's opinion.

11 MS. PONZOLI: I think you failed to

12 establish a very necessary predicate. My objection

13 is on the record. I am not telling him not to

14 answer, Mr. Gaines, but I do think that you are

15 pushing this to the outer limits.

16 BY MR. GAINES:

17 Q. Do you recall the pending question, Mr.

18 Supertintendent?

19 A. I would appreciate it being repeated.

20 MR. GAINES: Okay.

21 (The question referred to was

22 thereupon read by the reporter

23 as above recorded)

24 A. It is a proposal that has not been issued

25 in a final form. I have not analyzed it in any

0*0*0*

1 detail. I assume it has elements of both science and

2 political values associated with it.

3 Q. Has Everglades National Park provided

4 comments to the proposal?

5 A. My understanding is that comments were

6 forwarded within the National Park Service and the

7 Department of Interior.

8 Q. Have you seen those comments or did you

9 participate in the drafting or the accumulation of

10 those comments in any way?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Have you seen them?

13 A. I have seen them.

14 Q. Can you tell me what basically the

15 comments are? Are they against this proposal?

16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

17 A. I can tell you that they assessed and

18 reported how the definition would apply to lands

19 within the park and categorizes areas as either

20 wetlands or non-wetlands.

21 Q. My question is more basic. Does

22 Everglades National Park have an official position on

23 the issue of whether this definition of wetlands

24 proposed in the manual should be adopted or not?

25 A. We provided internal comment to the

0*0*0*

1 Department of Interior and I assume that the

2 Department of the Interior provided official comments

3 to EPA.

4 Q. And the internal comment you said a minute

5 ago it broke down what lands would be affected. Did

6 the internal comment have a component of, we are

7 against this or we are for this or did it not get

8 into that kind of a comment?

9 A. I didn't participate in the development of

10 them. I guess I have to tell you I don't know

11 specifically what the recommendation was. And those

12 are internal review comments in developing an

13 official position.

14 Q. Who on your staff would have the best

15 knowledge of this issue, the issue being the park's

16 position on the proposed redefinition of wetlands?

17 A. In terms of its scientific basis and

18 application to the physical resources of the park, I

19 would say my research director.

20 Q. Who is that?

21 A. Dr. Michael Soukup.

22 Q. Dr. Soukup, was he the person responsible

23 for preparing the internal comments that were passed

24 on to Interior?

25 A. I am sure that he and his staff had a

0*0*0*

1 significant role to play in the preparation of those

2 comments.

3 Q. Are you aware of any other individuals

4 that played a role there?

5 A. Those comments would have been signed out

6 by the, whoever was acting as superintendent of the

7 park at the time.

8 Q. Do you know who that was?

9 A. I don't know the time that those comments

10 were sent, off the top of my head.

11 Q. Your predecessor at the park was whom?

12 A. My predecessor was Bob Chandler.

13 Q. Was there an acting superintendent after

14 Mr. Chandler's tenure and prior to your arrival?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was that?

17 A. Durand Jones.

18 Q. Do you know what period of time Mr. Jones

19 was the acting superintendent?

20 A. I believe August of 1991 through my

21 arrival in mid-April of 1992.

22 Q. Is Mr. Jones still with the park?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what capacity?

25 A. He is the assistant superintendent of the

0*0*0*

1 park.

2 MR. GAINES: Off the record.

3 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

4 after which the following proceedings

5 were had)

6 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

7 Can you read back the last question and

8 answer.

9 (The portion referred to was

10 thereupon read by the reporter

11 as above recorded)

12 BY MR. GAINES:

13 Q. Just to sum up this area, Superintendent

14 Ring, I take it from your previous answers that you

15 have not obtained a sufficient level of detail on the

16 park's comments on this wetlands manual issue to make

17 an independent determination as to whether you feel

18 the definition is political as opposed to scientific

19 or some mix of the two?

20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

21 Q. Is that correct?

22 A. The comment period on the proposed

23 definitions closed before I arrived. I have not had

24 to look into this issue in any great detail to

25 respond or provide any further comments on the

0*0*0*

1 implication of the proposed definition change. So

2 aside from a briefing on the issue, I've not gone

3 into it in any great detail with my staff.

4 Q. Have you apprised yourself as to whether

5 there is some real chance that this definition would

6 be approved by EPA or have you attempted to find out

7 what the thinking and status of EPA is on this issue?

8 A. I have read the papers and listened to and

9 read any status reports coming out of our Washington

10 office. But beyond that, I am waiting for EPA's

11 final action like everyone else is.

12 Q. Would it surprise you at this point if the

13 EPA approved the redefinition of wetlands as

14 contained in this manual?

15 A. I've been with the federal government 20

16 years. I am not surprised by much anymore.

17 Q. Would it disturb you as the superintendent

18 of this park if this redefinition which is at least

19 alleged to be politically driven put at risk portions

20 of the park resources that you are overseeing in your

21 role as superintendent?

22 A. I would be concerned by anything that put

23 at risk park resources and made fulfilling our

24 legislative obligations towards them more difficult.

25 Q. You stated earlier that you would desire

0*0*0*

1 that the scientific method be applied to problems and

2 issues facing Everglades National Park. Would that

3 desire be true in this case where we are talking

4 about the definition of wetlands?

5 A. I would hope that all available scientific

6 information would be collected and utilized in the

7 decision-making process.

8 Q. You said that in the fall of 1971 you

9 obtained part-time employment with the National Park

10 Service. What was that employment?

11 A. That was in a seasonal position as a

12 recreation aide.

13 Q. Where was that?

14 A. In the George Washington Memorial Parkway

15 in Washington, D.C. area.

16 Q. What is the George Washington Memorial

17 Parkway? It sounds like a highway to me. Is that a

18 highway?

19 A. It is a unit of the national park system

20 that stretches from Mt. Vernon to Great Falls and

21 incorporates as an administrative unit a variety of

22 different natural, recreational and historic sites.

23 Q. How large an area is that?

24 A. In acreage, approximately 7,000 acres.

25 Q. As a recreation aide, what did that

0*0*0*

1 entail? You said you had a position as a recreation

2 aide?

3 A. I was involved in assisting in the

4 presentation of outdoor recreation programs directed

5 toward urban inner city youth.

6 Q. In the Washington, D.C. area?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. How long were you in that position?

9 A. Until December of 1972.

10 Q. And then what happened next? What did you

11 do next?

12 A. I was converted into a career conditional

13 position with the National Park Service.

14 Q. Does that mean you were now a full-time

15 employee, no longer temporary but still probationary

16 in some way?

17 A. I was a full-time employee while I was a

18 temporary. I was placed into a career status

19 position.

20 Q. What does the conditional refer to?

21 A. A normal probationary period for all

22 initial career placements of federal employees.

23 Q. How long did that last?

24 A. At the time that conditional status

25 extended for approximately ten months after the

0*0*0*

1 career appointment.

2 Q. When you were converted to this career

3 conditional position, were you still doing the youth

4 outreach programs?

5 A. No. I was appointed to a higher graded

6 career position in the administrative office of the

7 headquarters of the George Washington Memorial

8 Parkway.

9 Q. What type of duties did you have in that

10 position?

11 A. A variety of duties in that position

12 primarily having to do with procurement and

13 contracting.

14 Q. How long did you remain in that position?

15 A. Approximately one year.

16 Q. Until the end of 1973?

17 A. Yes. A little bit longer than one year.

18 Q. Early 1974?

19 A. That's what I recall.

20 Q. Sometime late 1973 or early 1974, what did

21 you do then?

22 A. I was competitively selected into a higher

23 graded position in the same office.

24 Q. In that position what were your duties?

25 A. I was a budget analyst.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Did this office only oversee issues with

2 regard to the George Washington Parkway or was it

3 other parks as well?

4 A. It oversaw budget issues related to the

5 administrative unit of the George Washington Memorial

6 Parkway which included a number of National Park

7 Service sites.

8 Q. All in the Washington, D.C. area?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. How long did you remain in the budget

11 analysis position there?

12 A. A little over one year.

13 Q. What was next?

14 A. I was competitively selected into a higher

15 graded position in the same office.

16 Q. What was that position?

17 A. That position title was program analyst.

18 Q. What did that entail?

19 A. All responsibilities for budget analysis,

20 recommendation of fund allocations and the analysis

21 and recommendation on organizational funding and

22 operating program priorities to the superintendent of

23 the park.

24 Q. Who was that, who was the superintendent

25 at the time?

0*0*0*

1 A. Good question.

2 Q. I knew I would hit one sooner or later

3 A. I believe it was Charles Vietl.

4 Q. Vietl?

5 A. I believe so.

6 Q. V I T A L?

7 A. V I E T L.

8 Q. How long was your tenure as a program

9 analyst?

10 A. Until June of 1975.

11 Q. In June of 1975 what occurred?

12 A. I was reassigned as a site manager at one

13 of the operating sites under the supervision of the

14 George Washington Memorial Parkway.

15 Q. What site was that?

16 A. It was actually two sites which were

17 co-located, Glen Echo Park and the Clara Barton

18 National Historic Site.

19 Q. They were located together?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What are the duties of a site manager?

22 A. Basically the planning and the oversight

23 of all day-to-day operations. That includes public

24 programs, protection of visitor, maintenance and

25 repair of facilities and long-term programming for

0*0*0*

1 all of those functions.

2 Q. What kind of facility was the Clara Barton

3 National Historic Site? Is that a home?

4 A. That was a house that was the last home of

5 Clara Barton and at one point was the headquarters of

6 the American Red Cross.

7 Q. And Glen Echo Park, what kind of facility

8 is that?

9 A. That was a former Chautauqua center at the

10 turn of the century and was subsequently developed as

11 an amusement park, and after its acquisition by the

12 National Park Service as part of the Potomac

13 Palisades along the George Washington Parkway the

14 facilities were rehabilitated and utilized to

15 accommodate public arts and educational programs.

16 Q. As the site manager at those two sites did

17 you have to deal with any water quality issues?

18 A. I had responsibility for assuring that the

19 public water supplies were maintained and tested and

20 repaired from the point of delivery from the

21 Washington water supply system to the various

22 sanitary and drinking facilities around the site.

23 Q. How long did you remain there as site

24 manager?

25 A. Until 1978.

0*0*0*

1 Q. And in 1978 --

2 A. I was detailed from that position to the

3 C&O Canal National Historical Park.

4 Q. Is that also in the Washington, D.C. area?

5 A. It extends from Georgetown to Cumberland,

6 Maryland and basically represents 184 miles of the

7 Maryland shoreline of the Potomac River.

8 Q. And you say you were detailed there. What

9 was your position there?

10 A. I was the acting assistant

11 superintendent.

12 Q. How long did you hold that position?

13 A. Several months, just between four and six

14 months. I can't remember exactly the time period.

15 Q. What were the duties, what were your

16 duties as acting assistant superintendent?

17 A. I was the chief deputy to the

18 superintendent. I had line responsibility for the

19 supervision of day-to-day park operations and

20 personnel.

21 Q. You said this was 180 miles of shoreline

22 along the Potomac?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Is that all undeveloped land or what does

25 it consist of?

0*0*0*

1 A. It is a narrow corridor of primarily

2 natural land through which a historic canal system

3 had been constructed in the early 1800s.

4 Q. Is that canal part of the Potomac River?

5 A. It is separate from the Potomac River.

6 Q. Does it flow into the Potomac?

7 A. It doesn't flow as a canal system.

8 Portions of it no longer hold water. Portions have

9 been rewatered, primarily 20 to 30 miles from

10 Washington, D.C., from Georgetown north out of

11 Washington, D.C., the tow path structure is

12 essentially intact and used for a variety of public

13 and recreational purposes and there are a significant

14 number of historic ruins and structures that are

15 maintained along the length of the park.

16 Q. The tow path, is that the path that

17 animals or some conveyance would pull barges up and

18 down the canal?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Did you have any occasion to deal with

21 water quality issues in that position other than

22 drinking water for the public?

23 A. One of my responsibilities was to assure

24 that wells and hand pumps providing drinking water to

25 the public were kept in good repair and tested for

0*0*0*

1 potability.

2 Q. How long did you remain in that position?

3 A. As I said, approximately four to six

4 months.

5 Q. Okay, sorry. Then after that, did you

6 move on elsewhere?

7 A. That was a detailed assignment. I

8 returned to the Glen Echo and Clara Barton site and

9 then was subsequently competitively promoted to the

10 position of chief of visitor services and resource

11 management at the headquarters of the George

12 Washington Memorial Parkway.

13 Q. And that takes us to approximately early

14 1979?

15 A. Late 1978 or early 1979, I believe.

16 Q. What were your duties as the chief of

17 visitor services and resource management?

18 A. I had direct line supervisory oversight

19 for approximately a half dozen program sites along

20 the George Washington Memorial Parkway similar in

21 scope and scale to the site that I had managed at

22 Glen Echo and Clara Barton. So I had six site

23 managers reporting to me and was responsible for the

24 general direction and oversight of their operations.

25 In addition, I had a functional staff and

0*0*0*

1 was the chief staff advisor to the superintendent on

2 matters pertaining to public interpretation and

3 visitor services and resource management and

4 protection of both natural and cultural resources

5 throughout the park unit.

6 Q. How long did you remain in that position?

7 A. Until May of 1981.

8 Q. During your tenure as the resource manager

9 there did you have any occasion to deal with water

10 quality issues beyond the drinking water for park

11 visitors?

12 A. We had responsibility to assess and work

13 cooperatively with various state and local

14 jurisdictions on the public contact conditions, water

15 quality conditions of the Potomac River insofar as

16 they had an effect on public health.

17 We had a responsibility for oversight and

18 assessment of several marsh and wetlands systems

19 extending along the Potomac River and estuary from

20 Alexandria south to Mt. Vernon.

21 Q. What marsh wetlands systems were included

22 in that? Did they have names?

23 A. Some did, some didn't.

24 Q. Can you recall any of the names?

25 A. Dike marsh was one.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Any others?

2 A. Off the top of my head, I don't recall

3 specific names. As I said, they were a variety of

4 sizes and configurations.

5 Q. How would you compare the wetlands that

6 you managed in that situation with the ones you are

7 currently charged with managing in the Everglades in

8 terms of type of wetlands?

9 A. They certainly had significant

10 characteristic differences. They were nowhere near

11 as extensive.

12 They were affected in significantly

13 different ways by the estuarine river flows of the

14 Potomac River compared to the flows occurring in the

15 Everglades system. The biological communities were

16 significantly different.

17 Q. Were those wetlands nutrient poor

18 environments such as the Everglades?

19 A. I would not characterize them in that

20 manner.

21 Q. Were there any major issues that came up

22 during your tenure there concerning the viability or

23 any threats to those wetlands?

24 A. Siltation associated with man-caused

25 alterations of the river shoreline, encroachment of

0*0*0*

1 exotic plant species into wetlands areas, water

2 quality issues related to surface and runoff and

3 leaching of septic material from residential

4 facilities; a variety of issues had a bearing and an

5 effect on the condition of those wetlands to varying

6 degrees.

7 Q. Siltation you mentioned, is that the

8 accumulation of silt?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you talk about the encroachment of

11 exotic plants, vegetation, what type of exotic plants

12 were you talking about there?

13 A. There were several, chief among them were

14 Hydrilla and Kudzu. Kudzu was more, created more of

15 an encroachment on the shoreline. Hydrilla was a

16 wetlands species that was encroaching into those

17 areas.

18 Q. What was the primary native vegetation in

19 those wetlands?

20 A. I don't think there was one. There was a

21 diversity of vegetation.

22 Q. When you talk about surface runoff, that

23 was from urban runoff or agricultural?

24 A. Primarily urban.

25 Q. During your tenure there were any of these

0*0*0*

1 issues addressed and dealt with that you can recall?

2 A. There was an awareness of the issues and

3 some coordination with local governmental agencies on

4 the, to ascertain the nature and extent of the

5 conditions associated with them. And based on what

6 information could be obtained, an attempt to comment

7 on for both state and county and city zoning and

8 permitting decisions insofar as they might create a

9 positive or an adverse effect on conditions within

10 the park.

11 Q. Were you dealing with those kinds of

12 issues directly yourself or someone on your staff?

13 A. I had a resource management specialist on

14 my staff who was primarily involved with those

15 issues, but I gave him guidance on both priorities

16 and the approach, his approach in dealing with

17 various government agencies.

18 Q. You said you were there until May of 1981.

19 What occurred in May of 1981?

20 A. I was competitively selected and promoted

21 into the position of superintendent of Gates of the

22 Arctic National Park and Reserve.

23 Q. Where is that located?

24 A. In the central Brooks Range of Alaska.

25 Q. Is that above the Arctic Circle?

0*0*0*

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you say you were competitively

3 selected, this is a position you applied for?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. As the superintendent of that national

6 park, what were your duties? What are the duties of

7 a superintendent?

8 A. The oversight of all park resources and

9 public uses, the direction of all personnel and staff

10 associated with the operation of the park and the

11 responsibility to initiate and guide long-term

12 assessment and planning efforts associated with the

13 protection and use and operation of the park.

14 Q. How large a facility or area is

15 encompassed by the Gates of the Arctic Park and

16 Preserve?

17 A. It is approximately 8 and a half million

18 acres.

19 Q. What type of terrain does that consist of?

20 A. On the south slopes of the Brooks Range it

21 consists of boreal forest, the central areas it

22 consists of very rugged mountainous terrain above

23 tree line, and on the north slope it consists of

24 transition from mountainous terrain through foothills

25 to open Arctic tundra.

0*0*0*

1 Q. I take it there are visitor facilities at

2 the park there?

3 A. There are no visitor facilities within the

4 boundaries of the park.

5 Q. No, there are not. Are visitors welcome

6 to the park?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. Camping allowed in the park?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But there are no permanent structures

11 there?

12 A. No, not inside the boundaries.

13 Q. What about administration building,

14 something like that?

15 A. Not inside the boundary.

16 Q. Is there one outside the boundary?

17 A. Several.

18 Q. Am I correct in assuming there are no

19 wetlands associated with this park?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I am not correct. There are wetlands?

22 A. There are.

23 Q. What is a wetland? We have been talking

24 about definitions of wetlands. How do you define it?

25 A. I define it in terms of its meeting the

0*0*0*

1 criteria published by EPA and the Corps of Engineers,

2 the primary agencies involved in the regulation of

3 wetlands.

4 So from the standpoint of my fulfilling my

5 responsibilities as a park manager I define it in

6 terms of the definitions that are legally

7 established.

8 Q. Without asking you to sit here and try to

9 give me a verbatim account of what that definition

10 is, because I don't think that is fair to do, can you

11 just give me a general idea of what the definition

12 is?

13 A. They are areas characterized by the

14 presence of water either in a standing surface

15 condition or in, from the standpoint of saturation in

16 soils, and they are also characterized by a variety

17 of water tolerant and water dependent biological

18 communities.

19 Q. Does the definition include areas where

20 the water is frozen, for example, tundra? Do you

21 consider the frozen tundra areas to be wetlands?

22 A. Insofar as your characterization implies

23 the presence of water, then, yes, it is very likely

24 that those locales would come under the established

25 definitions of wetlands.

0*0*0*

1 Q. I certainly don't claim any expertise

2 about tundra and whether or not it has water in it.

3 When you said there were wetlands in the Gates of the

4 Arctic park, what type of areas were you referring

5 to?

6 A. A significant number of rivers and

7 tributaries, significant numbers of marsh areas and

8 tundra, if you will, that were routinely water

9 saturated or had standing water on them. A number of

10 lakes.

11 Q. Do you consider lakes and rivers

12 themselves to be within the definition of wetlands?

13 A. Within the established legal definitions,

14 they are water bodies requiring the same kinds of

15 sensitivity and treatment.

16 Q. I am asking, is a water body like that

17 considered a wetland or part of a wetland?

18 A. I believe it is.

19 Q. Were there areas there in the Gates of the

20 Arctic that were perpetually frozen wetlands? Is

21 that a proper label to put on some of that land?

22 A. Are you referring to surface conditions?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 Q. Why not?

0*0*0*

1 A. There is no area in the Gates of the

2 Arctic that was perpetually frozen.

3 Q. What about soil saturation? I think one

4 of your definitions or characteristics of wetlands,

5 you said it was by the presence of standing surface

6 water or soil saturated with water.

7 Would soil that is saturated and frozen

8 constitute a wetland under your definition?

9 A. In the context of those areas of Gates of

10 the Arctic, yes.

11 Q. I have heard the term permafrost. Is that

12 descriptive of what I just asked about, soil with

13 water in it that is perpetually frozen, is that

14 permafrost?

15 A. What you were just asking about didn't

16 specify a state of perpetual frozen condition.

17 Q. I don't really need to beat this to death

18 but can a wetland be perpetually frozen and still be

19 a wetland in your mind?

20 A. I suppose it could. None of the resources

21 that I was dealing with at Gates of the Arctic were

22 perpetually frozen except for subsurface areas,

23 permafrost as you characterized it.

24 Q. Did you have water quality issues to deal

25 with in your tenure at Gates of the Arctic?

0*0*0*

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long was that tenure, by the way?

3 A. Five years.

4 Q. So that was until 1986?

5 A. 1986.

6 Q. What types of water quality issues did you

7 deal with up in Alaska?

8 A. Ascertaining baseline conditions of

9 various water resources within the park including the

10 inventory of those resources, the identification of

11 any issues that might be problematic and require

12 research, planning or management intervention, in the

13 case of several instances in pursuit of that planning

14 and management activity.

15 Q. Did you have problems up there with

16 disturbances by man affecting the water quality in

17 the park?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kind of problems were those? What

20 kinds of disturbances?

21 A. The primary area of disturbance and

22 concern was associated with placer gold mining

23 operation.

24 Q. What is that, placer gold mining

25 operation?

0*0*0*

1 A. It is basically the processing of gravels

2 in stream and river beds for the retrieval of gold or

3 other minerals.

4 Q. What water quality problems were

5 associated with that?

6 A. The most significant and visual problem

7 associated with that was turbidity and the dispersion

8 of suspended solids into the water column of a

9 natural stream or river. Associated with that, with

10 the disturbance out of the sediments of heavy metals

11 and other potential toxic substances and the

12 distribution of them into the water column and the

13 effect on natural occurring, naturally occurring

14 biological communities and natural conditions in

15 those streams and rivers.

16 Q. Was there a documented effect on the

17 biological communities as a result of that problem?

18 A. There were generically documented effects

19 of those kinds of conditions on microorganisms and

20 fish communities.

21 Q. What do you mean by generically

22 documented?

23 A. Placer gold mining and its effect on

24 stream courses and biological communities was studied

25 in a variety of locations around Alaska. Those

0*0*0*

1 studies supported the substance of those kinds of

2 effects wherever those kinds of disturbances

3 occurred.

4 Q. When you say generically documented, does

5 that mean that there are a large number of studies

6 which support this or that directly support this or

7 that there was a body of work which taken together

8 would support this?

9 A. I would say both.

10 Q. Was there a key study or studies, one or

11 two that you could point to and say, here's where we

12 can document these effects?

13 A. I could not off the top of my head make

14 such a reference.

15 Q. Were there people on your staff who would

16 be more familiar with that, more directly involved?

17 A. There were people on my staff and on the

18 staff of the regional office that were involved in

19 the monitoring and testing and evaluation of specific

20 conditions at various claims in placer mining

21 operations.

22 Q. What if anything was done during your

23 tenure there to address this problem or correct this

24 problem of the gold mining operations?

25 A. Under existing regulations anyone desiring

0*0*0*

1 to conduct mining operations within the boundaries of

2 a unit of the national park system had to conform

3 with the Mining in the Parks Act, all of which -- and

4 the regulations implementing it, all of which

5 required that a plan of operations be proposed,

6 reviewed and approved by the National Park Service

7 prior to the commencement of any mining operations on

8 valid patented or unpatented mining claims.

9 Q. Was this approval process undertaken with

10 regard to the mining activity which then later was

11 documented to cause these problems?

12 A. The approval process looked at all aspects

13 of the mining operation of potential disturbance and

14 adverse effect on park resources, including water

15 quality.

16 Q. I guess my question is, you have mining

17 going on in the park as I understand it which is

18 causing these problems with the biological

19 communities. Was that mining that caused these

20 problems approved in advance by the Park Service?

21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.

22 A. In some cases we came upon mining

23 operations on valid claims that had not been approved

24 as part of a required plan of operations by the

25 National Park Service and in those instances we

0*0*0*

1 intervened and required that such a plan be submitted

2 and approved.

3 In some cases those plans were submitted

4 and were reviewed and approved in an attempt to

5 approve only those operations which were required for

6 the claimant to exercise his valid property rights

7 and would minimize any and all intrusion on park

8 resources and would subsequently require reclamation

9 of those resources.

10 Q. So in dealing with this issue you were

11 faced with a balance, as I understand it, between

12 property rights on one hand and preserving the park

13 resources on the other?

14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

15 A. In every instance we were faced with a

16 responsibility to exercise the rights of the United

17 States to their fullest in protecting park resources.

18 Q. I take it that, based on your previous

19 answer, that in some instances the rights of the

20 United States when exercised to their fullest had to

21 be balanced against the private property rights of

22 the gold miners in these instances to mine their

23 claims or their mines?

24 MS. PONZOLI: Same objection as before.

25 Q. Is that correct?

0*0*0*

1 A. In some instances when the rights of the

2 United States were exercised to their fullest some

3 mining operation had to be permitted.

4 Q. And that mining operation which had to be

5 permitted was documented to cause some problems with

6 the park resources, the biological communities, water

7 quality?

8 A. In every instance we attempted to place

9 requirements on the operation that would avoid those

10 effects. In the time that I was in Alaska a whole

11 series of new units of the national park system had

12 just been established and were all confronting the

13 fact of these operations.

14 Every time a permit was issued it was

15 expected that known adverse effects would be

16 mitigated. Monitoring of those operations often led

17 to the awareness of previously -- awareness and

18 documentation of previously unknown effects and the

19 subsequent addition of requirements to mitigate those

20 effects.

21 Q. And the mitigation under those permits was

22 the responsibility of the owners of the mining

23 operations, is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. How was the mitigation accomplished?

0*0*0*

1 A. In a variety of ways, chief among them was

2 the use of settling ponds and recirculating ponds

3 with reference to water quality mitigation.

4 Q. And I take it that those were structures

5 built for the water to pass through so that the

6 sediments would have a chance to settle prior to

7 entering or reentering the system?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. You specified there that was with regard

10 to water quality mitigation. Was there some other

11 type of mitigation also involved?

12 A. The nature of a mining operation, placer

13 or otherwise, in a remote area of the bush implied

14 disturbance to gain access for the transport of

15 equipment and supplies. It implied disturbance

16 associated with support and housing facilities for

17 the operators. And it implied generation of waste

18 that had to be removed.

19 Q. At the time that you left Alaska, your

20 tenure at the Gates of the Arctic, was this issue an

21 ongoing problem?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you kept up with the developments in

24 that area as far as how that issue is being dealt

25 with now?

0*0*0*

1 A. Only in a general fashion.

2 Q. Do you know if there has been any

3 significant changes in how that issue is being dealt

4 with since you left?

5 A. I know that there has been litigation and

6 significant commitment of personnel and resources by

7 the National Park Service to document and assess in a

8 comprehensive fashion the effects and then necessary

9 mitigation measures associated with placer mining

10 operations. And I believe there has been some

11 attempt to extinguish -- to review the validity of

12 claims to assure that valid rights do exist and in

13 some instances I believe actions have been undertaken

14 to extinguish those rights.

15 Q. Do you have any connection or involvement

16 with those efforts or the litigation?

17 A. I have had no connection with those

18 efforts in any official or detailed fashion since

19 leaving Alaska in May of 1986.

20 Q. When you left Alaska in May of 1986 where

21 did you go do?

22 A. I went to Delaware Water Gap National

23 Recreation Area.

24 Q. In what position?

25 A. As the assistant superintendent.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Did you apply for that job?

2 A. I was offered that job and agreed to

3 accept it.

4 Q. You were willing to go from a position of

5 superintendent to one of assistant superintendent?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Why is that?

8 A. I viewed that position as an opportunity

9 to expand my management and operational experience.

10 I had completed the primary task, tasks

11 that I had set out to accomplish in the position in

12 Alaska.

13 MR. GAINES: Do you want to take a break

14 now?

15 MS. PONZOLI: Yes.

16 MR. GAINES: It is 11:45.

17 MS. PONZOLI: 12:30?

18 MS. PONZOLI: Let's make it an hour.

19 (Luncheon recess)

0*0*0*

1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 12:45 p.m.

3 MR. GAINES: We are back on the record.

4 BY MR. GAINES:

5 Q. Superintendent Ring, Ms. Ponzoli was just

6 advising me while we were off the record that there

7 are additional documents that you brought with you

8 today responsive to the deposition subpoena which we

9 did not previously receive in the document

10 production.

11 Can you identify for me what documents you

12 have with you here today so we can see what we need

13 to do with them?

14 A. Sure.

15 Code of Federal Regulations, Title 36,

16 Parks, Forests and Public Property; Public Law

17 101-229 titled the Everglades National Park

18 Protection and Expansion Act of 1989, along with

19 committee reports; Master Plan for Everglades

20 National Park dated May of 1979; Title 16 of the US

21 Code; Management Policies of the National Park

22 Service dated 1988; and a Draft Resource Management

23 Plan for Everglades National Park Recommended October

24 1991.

25 Q. What was that last one, draft?

0*0*0*

1 A. Resource Management Plan for Everglades

2 National Park.

3 Q. Can I see that last document you referred

4 to, please?

5 A. Yes.

6 (Pause)

7 Q. Are you aware of why these documents were

8 not produced along with the other documents when they

9 were produced in response to the subpoena?

10 MS. PONZOLI: Superintendent Ring and I

11 discussed the subpoena. He gathered all of his

12 documents he thought were responsive. In sitting and

13 preparing for his deposition it became apparent, some

14 of these are just legal provisions which you readily

15 recognized would not have been produced but the

16 management plans to my way of thinking did seem

17 appropriate.

18 This one is a draft, that is sort of a

19 close call whether that should be available to the

20 public or not.

21 BY MR. GAINES:

22 Q. So these were documents that you realized

23 as you prepared for your deposition they were perhaps

24 responsive to the subpoena as well?

25 A. They would be documents upon which I would

0*0*0*

1 draw on dealing with a variety of management issues

2 including those pertaining to the matters at hand.

3 Again, understanding the resource

4 management plan, it is a draft and it is still

5 subject to review and revision.

6 Q. Are you directing any of the review and

7 revision of this plan?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. GAINES: Let's go off the record one

10 minute.

11 (Discussion off the record)

12 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

13 BY MR. GAINES:

14 Q. Superintendent Ring, we were speaking

15 about your move to the Delaware Water Gap national

16 resource area?

17 A. Recreation area.

18 Q. Recreation area.

19 You mentioned that one of the reasons that

20 you made that move was that you had completed the

21 primary tasks that you set out to complete in Alaska.

22 What were those tasks?

23 A. Basically to establish the park and its

24 operation, because it was authorized only several

25 months before I arrived in Alaska.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Were you the first superintendent?

2 A. Yes, I was. And to take it through its

3 first general management planning process.

4 Q. What does a general management planning

5 process entail?

6 A. It is basically a process that culminates

7 in a document called a general management plan which

8 provides the basic guidance for the management and

9 development of any park operations and activities.

10 Q. Would that include a research plan as

11 well?

12 A. It would have components in it addressing

13 a variety of issues in a very broad and general

14 fashion that would provide direction for a variety of

15 operational or implemental planning efforts.

16 Q. Did you have a research staff or

17 department in Alaska?

18 A. We had researchers based in our regional

19 office in Alaska that we drew on --

20 Q. Where was the regional office?

21 A. In Anchorage.

22 (Continuing) as needed for the management

23 and planning efforts that we were undertaking.

24 Q. There were no researchers associated

25 specifically with your park?

0*0*0*

1 A. At different times a variety of them.

2 Q. On a detailed basis, as-needed basis?

3 A. On a project-by-project basis.

4 Q. Am I correct that in Everglades National

5 Park there is an in-house or on-site research center

6 and staff?

7 A. There is a unit of the organization that I

8 supervise called the South Florida Research Center.

9 Q. And that's headed up by Dr. Soukup?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Before we get too deeply into the

12 Everglades, tell me about the Delaware Water Gap

13 recreation area. What did that area consist of?

14 A. Roughly 70,000 acres of land on either

15 side of the Delaware River in Pennsylvania and New

16 Jersey along approximately a 40 mile segment of the

17 Delaware River from Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania where

18 Interstate 80 crosses from New Jersey to Pennsylvania

19 to approximately Port Jervis, New York where

20 Interstate 84 crosses the Delaware River from New

21 York into Pennsylvania.

22 Q. Were you at the Delaware Water Gap area,

23 recreation area from May of 1986 until you came to

24 Everglades Park?

25 A. Yes, I was.

0*0*0*

1 Q. So it would have been through April of

2 1992?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. At some point in your tenure there did you

5 rise from assistant superintendent to superintendent?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did you become the superintendent?

8 A. In an acting capacity the beginning of

9 July 1988, in a permanent capacity in early October

10 of 1988.

11 Q. When you came on board as the assistant

12 superintendent who was the superintendent?

13 A. Albert Hawkins.

14 Q. Did he remain in that position until July

15 of 1988?

16 A. Officially, yes.

17 Q. Why do you qualify it with officially?

18 A. In December of 1986 he was given the

19 additional responsibilities of project manager for

20 Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton and his

21 duty station was established, relocated to Scranton.

22 Q. Did you starting then in December of 1986

23 assume the day-to-day duties that a superintendent

24 would be expected to assume? Is that accurate?

25 A. No. The assistant superintendent

0*0*0*

1 basically has line responsibility over the

2 organization and operations of the park very similar

3 to an executive officer in a military or naval

4 situation. Depending upon the individuals involved

5 there could be almost a tag team relationship between

6 them over who deals with what issues. They are both

7 expected to cover the broad range, though primarily

8 assistant handles day-to-day operations.

9 I filled that role from the outset in

10 December when Mr. Hawkins' duty station was changed

11 to Scranton and the additional responsibilities of

12 the project at Steamtown were added.

13 I took on more of the long-term planning

14 and external relations responsibilities that

15 typically he would have had primary involvement in.

16 Q. So I guess that was sort of the thrust of

17 my question, that when he left for Scranton the

18 transition from assistant superintendent to acting

19 superintendent began to evolve at that time for you?

20 A. Yes. It certainly took on -- I certainly

21 took on a greater role with regard to handling areas

22 that Mr. Hawkins would have handled. We were still

23 in close contact and periodically sat down to discuss

24 the issues related to both operations. And he was

25 still my supervisor.

0*0*0*

1 Q. What is the distinction between a national

2 park and a national recreation area?

3 A. Each are units of the national park

4 system. Each has a purpose that includes the

5 preservation of unique national resources and the

6 provision for the use and enjoyment of those

7 resources.

8 The titles typically characterize a

9 different mixture of those resources and preservation

10 versus use objectives.

11 Q. I would like to try to understand that

12 distinction and I also throw into the mix a preserve

13 because we had the Gates of the Arctic, was it

14 national park and preserve?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And then there is the Delaware Water Gap

17 National Recreation Area. So can you draw for me the

18 distinction among those three, a park, a recreation

19 area and a preserve?

20 A. In the case of Gates of the Arctic there

21 was approximately 7.6 million acres of area that was

22 designated as national park and approximately 900,000

23 acres of area that was designated as national

24 preserve.

25 The primary distinctions between those two

0*0*0*

1 designations in the case of Gates of the Arctic were

2 that in the preserve portion of the unit sport

3 hunting was permitted.

4 Q. Was permitted?

5 A. Was permitted by law and whereas in the

6 park, in an area designated as a national park sport

7 hunting is prohibited.

8 And the other distinction was that the

9 national park was also designated wilderness under

10 the provisions of the wilderness act so it had an

11 additional designation on it, the national preserve

12 was not.

13 Q. And then other than sport hunting, is

14 there any other activity that was allowed in the

15 preserve that wasn't allowed in the national park?

16 A. In the case of Gates of the Arctic, no.

17 The purpose established for both units was identical

18 and that was to preserve wilderness conditions and

19 values.

20 Q. Is there some generic, and you keep

21 specifying in the case of Gates of the Arctic, is

22 there a more general definition that the Park Service

23 uses when talking of a park, a recreation area or a

24 preserve? Is there a set definition of those terms?

25 A. There is a more generic description of

0*0*0*

1 what the various designations of units of the

2 national park system typically represent, but

3 ultimately Congress designates each of those areas,

4 and in the authorizing legislation specifies any

5 particular mix or provision that they wish to apply

6 specifically to that area.

7 Q. So in other words, if I understand what

8 you are testifying, you could have a national park

9 where hunting is allowed or you could have a preserve

10 where hunting is not allowed, it all depends on how

11 it is set up by Congress?

12 A. Ultimately that's true, though no national

13 park has ever been authorized that I am aware of by

14 Congress that provides for sport hunting.

15 Q. There is no hunting allowed in Everglades

16 National Park, I take it?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. What about fishing?

19 A. Fishing is permitted within Everglades

20 National Park, sport fishing.

21 Q. Is the fishing in the park limited in some

22 way?

23 A. In a variety of ways. Commercial fishing

24 is not permitted and sport fishing is only permitted

25 insofar as it is determined that it can occur without

0*0*0*

1 adversely affecting park resources.

2 Q. What about a recreation area, what does

3 that term indicate as far as usage of an area that we

4 wouldn't find with park or preserve?

5 A. It typically indicates that there are, in

6 addition to outstanding natural and cultural features

7 associated with it are, there are outstanding outdoor

8 recreation opportunities and resources to support

9 those activities.

10 Q. What is Loxahatchee designated, if you

11 know?

12 A. My understanding is that Loxahatchee is

13 designated as a National Wildlife Refuge.

14 Q. So that's neither a park nor a recreation

15 area nor a preserve, is that right?

16 A. It is not a unit of the national park

17 system.

18 Q. Who has jurisdiction or authority over

19 Loxahatchee?

20 A. A different agency of the Department of

21 Interior, US Department of Interior.

22 Q. Would that be the US Fish and Wildlife

23 Service?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Have you been up to Loxahatchee?

0*0*0*

1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. Toured it, did you take a tour of it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Just to leave this area, if I understood

5 your testimony, the terms of art, park, recreation

6 area, preserve, are generally descriptive but not

7 necessarily a hundred percent indicator of what kind

8 of activity we can expect to find in those areas; is

9 that accurate?

10 A. They are generally descriptive of a

11 mixture of resources and uses but in individual cases

12 some may have specific unique provisions for either

13 preservation or use as established by Congress.

14 Q. During your tenure in Delaware at the

15 Water Gap, were there water quality issues that arose

16 there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you describe what those were for me?

19 A. The areas in the immediately adjacent

20 portions of the Delaware River watershed were subject

21 to significant development pressures. The

22 implications from both increased point source and

23 non-point pollution to the main stem of the Delaware

24 within the national recreation area were significant.

25 Q. What activities were undertaken by the

0*0*0*

1 park or the Park Service during your tenure there to

2 address those issues?

3 A. An assessment of the Service's obligation

4 toward maintaining water quality conditions, given

5 the provisions of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, and

6 increasingly extensive water quality monitoring

7 program conducted in cooperation with the Delaware

8 River Basin Commission and other individuals and

9 organizations, the advocacy of a -- excuse me, the

10 assessment of the conditions ascertained through that

11 monitoring program compared to the water quality

12 standards that were in existence and ultimately the

13 advocacy of comprehensive revisions to those

14 standards to protect existing high quality conditions

15 in the main stem and the tributaries of the Delaware

16 and the tributaries within the park.

17 Q. What kind of pollutants were you

18 monitoring for there?

19 A. We were monitoring for a variety of

20 pollutants and water conditions that included both

21 chemical and biological parameters, including fecal

22 coliform, fecal strep, dissolved oxygen,

23 macroinvertebrates. I believe there were somewhere

24 between 15 and 20 indicator parameters that were

25 settled on.

0*0*0*

1 Q. I believe you stated as a result of the

2 monitoring efforts eventually you became involved in

3 advocating revisions to the water quality standards

4 up there?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Was that effort successful? Were the

7 standards revised?

8 A. I believe they are very shortly pending

9 final regulatory action.

10 Q. So they are in the process of being

11 revised as of now?

12 A. That process has gone on for several

13 years. It is almost complete.

14 Q. What standards, for what parameters what

15 standards are being revised?

16 A. Comprehensive water quality standards for

17 that portion of the river insofar as they would

18 address any point source and non-point discharges.

19 Q. Were you personally involved in those

20 efforts to obtain revisions to the standards up

21 there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did your personal involvement entail?

24 A. I was briefed by the staff at the park

25 upon my arrival with regard to areas of resource

0*0*0*

1 concern and issues. I provided direction to that

2 staff to undertake and expand data collection and

3 research in cooperation with Delaware River Basin

4 Commission, I prioritized and allocated funds to

5 support those efforts.

6 I was briefed on the progress of those

7 efforts, the results, encouraged the attention on the

8 part of local property owners municipal governments,

9 county governments, state regulatory agencies and the

10 Delaware River Basin Commission concerning the

11 implications of that data, directed the development

12 cooperatively of recommendations and agency positions

13 based on that data and advocated the adoption of a

14 regulatory package that would meet or exceed the

15 ambient water quality conditions that that data

16 described.

17 Q. Were you involved in briefing or providing

18 testimony to government entities up there with regard

19 to these issues?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you talk about the water quality data

22 in a briefing by your staff up there, how did that

23 work? You came in to the Delaware Gap position and

24 the staff gave you a briefing to bring you up to

25 speed on what the issues were in that area?

0*0*0*

1 A. Part of my responsibility in arriving and

2 beginning the work at the national recreation area

3 included obtaining from all elements of the

4 organization a comprehensive review and assessment of

5 their operation and program and understanding from

6 them the issues that they were attempting to deal

7 with in all aspects of park operations.

8 So in pursuing that orientation and

9 briefing I was provided information in regards to

10 water quality issues.

11 Q. In that type of situation did you accept

12 the conclusions presented to you by staff as to what

13 the problems were and what the data reflected or did

14 you engage in some kind of independent evaluation of

15 your own to arrive at a conclusion?

16 A. When I heard from my staff that there were

17 issues of concern I asked them to brief me on what

18 they knew about those issues and I conducted an

19 investigation using my staff to obtain additional

20 information having a bearing on the issue until I

21 felt knowledgeable enough to reach a conclusion

22 regarding further action.

23 Q. Then I take it at some point in 1992 you

24 applied for the superintendent's position in

25 Everglades National Park, is that correct?

0*0*0*

1 A. Actually it was in late 1991.

2 Q. Do you remember what month?

3 A. November, October or November. November,

4 I believe.

5 Q. How did you learn that that position was

6 available to be applied for?

7 A. There is a weekly publication of

8 opportunities based on vacant positions around the

9 National Park Service that is published and provided

10 to all units of the national park system.

11 Q. Was your friend, Maureen Finnerty, still

12 at the park at that time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When did she leave?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Do you still have any contact with her?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where is she now?

19 A. She is superintendent of Olympic National

20 Park.

21 Q. Is that in Washington?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After applying for the position in late

24 1991, what was the process that you had to go through

25 before you ultimately received the position and

0*0*0*

1 became the superintendent?

2 A. My written application was submitted by

3 the deadline established. I had phone conversation

4 with the selecting official.

5 Q. Who was that?

6 A. The regional director for the southeast

7 region of the National Park Service, Jim Coleman, and

8 I was offered the job by phone.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. In early February. Actually the middle of

11 February 1992.

12 Q. As of that time, the time you were offered

13 the job by phone, had you traveled down to the park

14 as part of this process?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you accept the job during that phone

17 conversation?

18 A. Yes. Let me clarify, I accepted the job in

19 the second phone conversation when it was offered to

20 me.

21 Q. Other than Jim Coleman, was there any

22 other person that you discussed your application

23 with?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was that?

0*0*0*