1

1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA

SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )

3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and )

WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )

4 )

Petitioners, )

5 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

6 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

7 Respondents. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., )

UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )

9 and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )

Petitioners, )

10 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

11 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

12 Respondents. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

13 FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )

ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )

14 W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )

and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

15 Petitioners, )

vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040

16 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

17 of Florida; et al., )

Respondents. )

18 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

100 Southeast 2nd Street

19 Miami, Florida

November 23, 1992

20 9:15 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.

21 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD GETTINGS RING

22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered

23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for

24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of

25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause.

1 APPEARANCES

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and

3 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC.

4 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, P.A.

One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636

5 Two South Biscayne Boulevard

Miami, Florida

6 BY: JONATHAN L. GAINES, ESQ.

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR

8 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

9 SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, ESQ.

THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQ.

10 Assistant United States Attorneys

155 North Miami Avenue

11 Suite 600

Miami, Florida 33130

13 INDEX

14 Witness Direct

RICHARD GETTINGS RING

By Mr. Gaines: 3

EXHIBIT PAGE DESCRIPTION

1 26 November 22, 1992 editorial from the

19 Miami Herald

1 Thereupon --

2 RICHARD GETTINGS RING

3 was called as a witness and having been duly sworn,

4 was examined and testified as follows:

5 DIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. GAINES:

7 Q. Sir, please state your name.

8 A. My name is Richard Gettings Ring.

9 Q. You are currently the superintendent of

10 Everglades National Park, is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Ring, my name is Jonathan Gaines. We

13 are here today to take your deposition in the

14 administrative proceedings which are a challenge to

15 the SWIM plan, SWIM plan of the South Florida Water

16 Management District. I represent the petitioners

17 Florida Sugar Cane League, Inc., United States Sugar

18 Corporation and New South Hope, Inc. I will be

19 asking you some questions today about the park and

20 your involvement there and with the SWIM plan. Let

21 me ask you if you ever have had your deposition taken

22 before.

23 A. Yes, once.

24 Q. When was that?

25 A. I believe 1977.

1 Q. Where did that occur?

2 A. In Washington, D.C.

3 Q. What type of proceeding was that done in

4 association with?

5 A. A civil proceeding against the United

6 States and the National Park Service.

7 Q. Do you recall who the parties to that

8 proceeding were, who the plaintiff was?

9 A. I recall the individual's name. I don't

10 necessarily recall the corporate entity that he was

11 operating under.

12 Q. What was the name?

13 A. Robert Van Klyve, I believe it is K L Y V E.

14 Q. Can you recall generally what that case in

15 1977 had to do with?

16 A. It had to do with a termination of a

17 cooperative agreement between the National Park

18 Service and Mr. Van Klyve.

19 Q. What kind of agreement was that?

20 A. It was a cooperative agreement.

21 Q. What did it provide for? What was the

22 subject matter of it?

23 A. It provided for the use and occupancy of

24 park-owned facilities in exchange for provision of

25 arts instruction and public demonstrations, arts or

1 crafts instructions, public demonstrations and

2 programs.

3 Q. What park was that associated with?

4 A. The administrative unit was the George

5 Washington Memorial Parkway. It was a site within

6 that.

7 Q. Do you know if that deposition was ever

8 transcribed?

9 A. I do not.

10 Q. Did you ever testify in court in that

11 case?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. Do you know what the resolution was of

14 that case?

15 A. The termination decision was upheld.

16 Q. That is the only previous occasion in

17 which you have had your deposition taken, is that

18 correct?

19 A. That's all I recall.

20 Q. Let me just ask you during the deposition

21 if you don't understand any of my questions or you

22 need me to rephrase it, make it clearer, please let

23 me know and I will try to do so.

24 And I would also ask that you answer out

25 loud, that you don't speculate, just give me your

1 factual knowledge and your opinions as an expert, but

2 I will ask you not to speculate.

3 When did you become superintendent of

4 Everglades National Park?

5 A. The official date on the records or the

6 day that I actually began duty?

7 Q. Give me both.

8 A. I believe the date on the records where I

9 came on to the payroll of Everglades National Park

10 was April 6.

11 Q. Of what year, sir?

12 A. 1992.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. And the day that I actually arrived and

15 began to work was -- I will refer to a calendar and I

16 will give it to you exactly.

17 (Pause)

18 A. April 20.

19 Q. If you could, please, I would like to go

20 through a rundown of your educational and

21 professional background. So I think the easiest way

22 to do this would be to start with where and when you

23 graduated from high school and we will take it

24 forward from there.

25 A. I graduated from high school in June of

1 1965 at Nether Providence High School in Delaware

2 County, Pennsylvania.

3 Q. Upon graduation from high school, what did

4 you do next?

5 A. Aside from working a summer job, I entered

6 college in the fall of 1965.

7 Q. What was the summer job, if you can

8 recall?

9 A. I don't recall exactly. I believe it was

10 working in a restaurant.

11 Q. Where did you attend college, sir?

12 A. Penn State University at the main campus

13 and state college.

14 Q. You graduated from Penn State?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. In June of 1969.

18 Q. What degree did you obtain there?

19 A. I obtained a degree of bachelor of arts in

20 political science.

21 Q. In your undergraduate education did you

22 have any courses of a scientific nature?

23 A. Very few.

24 Q. Did you specialize or concentrate in that

25 area at all in your education, the scientific area?

1 A. No. Insofar -- excuse me, I would like to

2 ask for some clarification. What do you mean by

3 scientific area? The degree I received was in

4 political science.

5 Q. I am referring more to chemistry, biology,

6 environmental --

7 A. Physical science.

8 Q. Physical sciences.

9 A. I did not specialize in physical sciences.

10 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a

11 scientist?

12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

13 Q. Taking out the political science meaning

14 of science, would you describe yourself as a

15 scientist?

16 A. I would describe myself as a national park

17 manager.

18 Q. Upon your graduation from Penn State what

19 did you do next?

20 A. I worked in England.

21 Q. Was that during the summer after your

22 graduation?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. What employment did you have there?

25 A. I worked for the Third US Air Force in a

1 capacity of counselor in charge of aquatics programs

2 at a camp for military dependents.

3 Q. This was like a summer camp for children

4 of military personnel, is that correct?

5 A. Primarily.

6 Q. When you say aquatics program, is that

7 like swimming and boating and fishing and that type

8 of thing?

9 A. Those and in addition I was involved in

10 supervising whitewater canoe excursions to Wales and

11 also supervised horse riding excursions in the New

12 Forest.

13 Q. Where is the New Forest?

14 A. South central England, north of the Isle

15 of White.

16 Q. Is that near Stonehenge?

17 A. South and somewhat east of Stonehenge.

18 Q. Sounds like a great job. How long did

19 that last?

20 A. It lasted until the fall of 1969.

21 Q. And then you left that job and moved on to

22 something else?

23 A. I returned to the United States.

24 Q. What did you do at that time?

25 A. I was drafted.

1 Q. Did you serve in the military?

2 A. Rather than report for induction I

3 enlisted into the United States Army into the officer

4 candidate program.

5 Q. How long were you in the Army?

6 A. From November 1969 to November 1971.

7 Q. During the two-year tour of duty there

8 what rank did you attain?

9 A. The highest enlisted rank I attained was

10 specialist fourth class.

11 Q. Where does that fit in on the hierarchy of

12 ranks in the Army?

13 A. It is a technical grade comparable in pay

14 to a corporal.

15 Q. Did you specialize in any particular area

16 in your service in the Army?

17 A. Small arms and demolitions as part of a

18 combat engineer unit.

19 Q. I take it you received training in that

20 area from the Army?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Where were you stationed during your

23 tenure in the Army?

24 A. Several locations.

25 Q. Briefly tell me what they were.

1 A. Fort Dix, New Jersey, Fort Leonard Wood,

2 Missouri, Fort Gordon, Georgia, Fort Benning,

3 Georgia, Fort Carson, Colorado.

4 Q. As a result of the training you received

5 from the Army did you receive any additional degree

6 beyond your bachelor of arts degree?

7 A. I received no university degree. I

8 certainly received certifications attesting to the

9 training that I received while I was in the Service.

10 Q. Are there different areas where you are

11 certified or were certified by the Army?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you recall what they are?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Would it have been several different

16 areas?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did they all have to do with the small

19 arms and demolitions area?

20 A. They had to do with a variety of different

21 military skills for a combat unit.

22 Q. In November of 1971 you received an

23 honorable discharge from the Army or you left the

24 Army in some fashion?

25 A. I was released from active duty.

1 Q. What does that mean?

2 A. Exactly what it says.

3 Q. Were you no longer in the Army at that

4 point? Were you a member of the Reserves?

5 A. I was a member of the active Reserves.

6 Q. How long were you a member in the active

7 Reserves?

8 A. Two years.

9 Q. Were you ever called up to duty during

10 that two-year period?

11 A. Once.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. It was one of 1972 or 1973, I don't recall

14 which year.

15 Q. Where were you stationed during that

16 period?

17 A. Camp Drum, New York.

18 Q. How long did that last?

19 A. It was a two-week call-up.

20 Q. What was the purpose of that? What did

21 you do during the two weeks?

22 A. I trained National Guard and Reserve

23 personnel.

24 Q. Other than this two-week call-up what were

25 you doing with yourself during that two years when

1 you came back from the Army? Let's start with the

2 fall of 1971. You arrived back in the US. What did

3 you do then?

4 A. I visited and stayed with family.

5 Q. For how long?

6 A. Through the holidays.

7 Q. Where are you from, incidentally,

8 originally?

9 A. I was born in Paterson, New Jersey. Both

10 my families are from upstate New York.

11 Q. Prior to April of 1992 have you ever lived

12 in Florida before?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Had you ever been to Florida before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On how many occasions?

17 A. I don't know exactly. I would say in the

18 range of a dozen times.

19 Q. For what purposes were these visits to

20 Florida? Vacations or something to do with your

21 employment with the Park Service or can you describe

22 for me that?

23 A. A combination of family vacations when I

24 was a child, visits to family members who lived in

25 Florida and visits to friends employed in the

1 National Park Service working in Florida.

2 Q. Would those include friends employed at

3 Everglades National Park?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you have occasion to visit the park on

6 those visits?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was the first time you ever visited

9 Everglades National Park?

10 A. In the early eighties.

11 Q. Who were you down here to see at that

12 time?

13 A. Several individuals.

14 Q. Can you tell me who they were? I am

15 talking about friends employed by the Park Service,

16 not family members.

17 A. Maureen Finnerty, I recall.

18 Q. She was employed by the Park Service?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In what capacity?

21 A. Assistant superintendent of Everglades

22 National Park.

23 Q. This visit in the early eighties when you

24 first visited Everglades National Park, how much time

25 did you actually spend at the park during that visit?

1 A. A day.

2 Q. Did you get a tour of the park?

3 A. I toured some facilities.

4 Q. Any other visits to the park prior to

5 1992?

6 A. Could you be more specific in terms of

7 prior to the calendar year 1992, prior to my arrival

8 to assume the duties?

9 Q. I am saying prior to calendar year 1992

10 because I am assuming there might have been some

11 process where you came down and visited in connection

12 with taking over the duties. I didn't want to

13 include that in this question.

14 A. Then the answer is no.

15 Q. Am I correct in assuming that there were

16 some visits to the park by you, a visit or visits

17 prior to you assuming the duties in 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. We will get to that. Let's go back to the

20 fall of 1971 when you a came back from the Army and

21 spent the holidays with your family.

22 What did you do next either professionally

23 or with regard to your education?

24 A. I enrolled in a graduate program at the

25 University of Rhode Island.

1 Q. In what area?

2 A. In political science.

3 Q. Was this to work toward your master's?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Did you receive a master's degree?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. I left the University of Rhode Island

9 after one semester to accept temporary employment

10 with the National Park Service.

11 Q. Have you been employed by the National

12 Park Service since that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So much for temporary employment, I guess.

15 So you did one semester of work toward

16 your master's at that time. Did you ever go back and

17 complete it?

18 A. I did not go back and do any further

19 graduate work at the University of Rhode Island.

20 Q. Did you do further graduate work at other

21 institutions?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was that?

24 A. George Washington University.

25 Q. During what time period?

1 A. Between June of 1972 and I believe the

2 summer of 1975. I am not entirely sure. I don't

3 recall the exact semesters in which I took course

4 work.

5 Q. Was that on a sporadic basis while you

6 were doing other work for the Park Service?

7 A. It was on a part-time basis while I was

8 employed full time with the National Park Service.

9 Q. At that time were you able to complete

10 your master's?

11 A. I did not complete a degree program at

12 George Washington University.

13 Q. Is that what you were working toward there

14 at George Washington, was your master's in political

15 science?

16 A. No, I was working towards a master's in

17 public administration.

18 Q. You had changed your area?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. You stated you didn't receive that degree

21 at that time from GW. Did you at any time receive a

22 degree?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you still have any intention to

25 complete that work?

1 A. No, I do not.

2 Q. Have you had any other postgraduate work

3 or education beyond what you have told me about,

4 Rhode Island and GW?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was that?

7 A. I have had a significant amount of course

8 work associated with my employment with the National

9 Park Service.

10 Q. Are those listed on your CV, those

11 courses?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. GAINES: Do we have a copy of his CV?

14 MS. PONZOLI: All expert witnesses'

15 personal resumes or CVs or whatever they have were

16 provided when we exchanged expert witness lists.

17 And, yes, his was provided.

18 BY MR. GAINES:

19 Q. Was the course work that you have had

20 associated with your employment with the National

21 Park Service, was that done at any one institution or

22 numerous institutions?

23 A. Numerous.

24 Q. Have these courses occurred over the past

25 20 years?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many, ballpark figure, courses are we

3 talking about?

4 A. Off the top of my head, I don't know the

5 exact number. I would say 30 to 40.

6 Q. Among those 30 to 40 courses were they

7 mainly concentrating on management and administration

8 type subjects or were there other subjects as well

9 that you took courses in?

10 A. They were a variety.

11 Q. Did you take any courses related to

12 scientific issues such as we discussed earlier, water

13 quality issues, environmental issues, biological

14 issues?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell me what courses you took of a

17 scientific nature?

18 A. I can't give you specific course titles.

19 I took a number of courses associated with the

20 management of national park natural and cultural

21 resources.

22 Q. What types of scientific areas did you get

23 into in any of those courses?

24 A. Areas pertaining to the full range of

25 natural and cultural issues confronting the National

1 Park Service.

2 Q. Were the courses specifically geared

3 toward the National Park Service perspective,

4 managing national parks?

5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.

6 You may answer.

7 Q. You can answer.

8 A. Primarily.

9 Q. Did you take any courses, what I would

10 call hard science courses, like let's say on water

11 chemistry, for example, did you take any courses

12 where you covered areas concerning water chemistry?

13 A. There were portions of a number of courses

14 that pertained to specific natural resource

15 conditions.

16 Q. Including water chemistry? I am just

17 using that as an example. It is not a magic

18 question.

19 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean

20 when you say, was a topic like that a part of the

21 course work. The answer is -- my answer is that,

22 yes, that and many other topics related to physical

23 resource conditions and issues were topics of various

24 training courses that I participated in.

25 Q. The reason I am asking these questions on

1 this particular area, you have testified that your

2 background is primarily in management and

3 administration and those types of areas and that you

4 wouldn't describe yourself as a scientist.

5 A. I did not say that.

6 Q. You did not say that.

7 Would you describe yourself as a

8 scientist?

9 A. Certainly. Excuse me, I would say that I

10 certainly have significant amount of scientific

11 training.

12 Q. Are you including in that political

13 science?

14 A. Certainly.

15 Q. Other than your political science

16 training, which I am certainly not downgrading, but

17 other than that training would you say that you have

18 a significant amount of scientific training?

19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

20 You may answer.

21 A. I have a significant amount of training in

22 scientific method, regardless of what topic that is

23 applied to.

24 Q. What do you mean when you say scientific

25 method?

1 A. The process by which facts are discovered.

2 Q. When you talk about that, scientific

3 method, are you talking about the process of

4 conducting experiments or gathering empirical data

5 and obtaining results that can be reproduced by

6 others, that type of thing?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is the scientific method as we are just

9 talking about it, is that applicable to the area of

10 political science as well as the physical sciences?

11 A. Scientific methodology is applicable to

12 both.

13 Q. So you received training in the scientific

14 method both in your undergraduate political science

15 studies and in your postgraduate courses taken in

16 connection with the national park issues, is that

17 accurate?

18 A. I would say that to varying degrees I

19 received training in scientific method and the

20 application of that method throughout the training

21 that I received in college and with the Park Service.

22 Q. Are you a proponent of the use of the

23 scientific method in approaching issues and problems

24 facing the national parks, Everglades National Park

25 in particular?

1 A. Certainly.

2 Q. As the superintendent of Everglades

3 National Park would you insist that the scientific

4 method be utilized and applied in addressing the

5 issues and problems of the park?

6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

7 You may answer.

8 A. I would desire that it be applied.

9 Q. Why is that?

10 A. The scientific process has a significant

11 potential for bringing all available facts to bear on

12 administrative and policy decisions.

13 Q. Have you in your tenure with the National

14 Park Service had occasion to observe instances where

15 the scientific method is displaced or competes with

16 politically driven solutions to problems?

17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

18 You may answer.

19 A. In my experience, all public policy

20 decisions that I have been associated with usually

21 have some element of both.

22 Q. Have you ever had occasion to observe

23 instances where the political aspects of a decision

24 have outweighed the scientific aspects and produced

25 what you felt was an inappropriate result?

1 A. There have been a number of occasions

2 where I have not personally agreed with a policy

3 decision that has been made.

4 Q. Can you give me any examples of that?

5 A. I can give you an example from Alaska.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. Where a decision was made to exchange

8 lands within the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

9 subsurface estate or surface estate within the Gates

10 of the Arctic National Park and Reserve and the

11 decision was made to do it by the Department of

12 Interior in discussions with the Arctic Slope

13 Regional Corporation and the National Park Service

14 was then informed of the decision and told to proceed

15 with the selection of lands to accomplish it.

16 Q. What was your disagreement with that

17 decision?

18 A. The decision to exchange the lands was

19 made before any assessment was accomplished of the

20 implications or the impacts of such an exchange

21 either on the national park, the local village

22 corporation around which the lands were being

23 selected within the park or on the Arctic National

24 Wildlife Refuge.

25 Q. Did the exchange occur?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Your feeling was that the decision to make

3 that exchange was politically driven, is that

4 correct?

5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

6 A. I have no idea what drove the decision.

7 Q. But you didn't --

8 A. And I wouldn't speculate.

9 Q. Was it your feeling at the time that there

10 hadn't been an adequate scientific assessment of the

11 impact, is that what you stated?

12 A. There had been none that I was aware of.

13 There had been no assessment of the impact at all,

14 scientific or otherwise, prior to the decision being

15 made.

16 Q. Do you know why the Department of the

17 Interior supported a decision like this when there

18 was no assessment of these impacts taking place?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with

21 anyone in Interior about that?

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. What was the tenor of those discussions,

24 what was their response?

25 A. I can't recall specifics of those

1 discussions. The basic thrust was that the decision

2 to proceed with the exchange had been made and our

3 responsibilities were narrow insofar as selecting

4 specific acreage to be involved and to provide an

5 assessment of the impact to support the decision.

6 MR. GAINES: I want to mark this as

7 Exhibit 1, please.

8 (November 22, 1992 editorial from the

9 Miami Herald was marked as Ring Deposition Exhibit 1

10 for identification)

11 BY MR. GAINES:

12 Q. Let me show you, Superintendent Ring, what

13 we have just marked as Exhibit No. 1. While we were

14 on the issue of the interrelationship of science and

15 politics, this came to mind.

16 This is a copy of an editorial in

17 yesterday's Miami Herald concerning a wetlands manual

18 being proposed by Vice President Quayle's Council on

19 Competitiveness and the underlined portion here

20 notes, "Tossing aside scientific definitions of

21 wetlands, they substituted political definitions.

22 Parts of Everglades National Park can't meet the

23 Council's political definition of wetlands."

24 Did you see this editorial yesterday?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. Are you familiar with the issues being

2 discussed in here?

3 A. Somewhat.

4 Q. Have you had any input into this Council

5 on Competitiveness manual on wetlands?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Have you had any communication with

8 anybody associated with that manual?

9 A. My staff.

10 Q. Your staff has had communication or you

11 have had communication with your staff?

12 A. I have had communication with my staff.

13 Q. Is your staff involved in the manual being

14 discussed here?

15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

16 A. Could you clarify that?

17 Q. I asked if you had communications with

18 anybody associated with that manual and you said your

19 staff. You discussed the manual with your staff?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is your staff providing any kind of input

22 or communication to the Council on Competitiveness

23 regarding this manual?

24 A. I believe at the time the manual was being

25 developed and proposed there was a solicitation of

0*0*0*

1 review comments from the field units of the National

2 Park Service and that comments were developed and

3 submitted.

4 Q. Are you aware of the statement that parts

5 of Everglades National Park can't meet the Council's

6 political definition of wetlands, are you aware of

7 that fact or is that true as far as you know?

8 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I mean,

9 this sentence, Mr. Gaines, makes an assumption that I

10 don't think you have established in the record.

11 MR. GAINES: I am asking him if it is true

12 as far as he knows.

13 MS. PONZOLI: You are asking him the

14 physical fact, can the Everglades National Park not

15 meet the manual's definition of wetlands, is that the

16 question?

17 MR. GAINES: Yes, that is the current

18 question.

19 MS. PONZOLI: Okay.

20 BY MR. GAINES:

21 Q. If you know.

22 A. If you are referring to the definition

23 that was published for public comment last year, I

24 believe the assessment of the park staff was that a

25 number of areas within Everglades National Park would

0*0*0*

1 not qualify as wetlands under the proposed

2 definitions.

3 Q. Do you recall what that proposed

4 definition was? Did you see it at the time?

5 A. I saw the proposal, but at that time I was

6 not at Everglades National Park and the wetlands

7 issue was not a critical issue for my attention. So

8 I have a general understanding of it but I don't know

9 the specifics.

10 Q. So you don't recall the specific

11 definition as we sit here today?

12 A. No. I only recall that in being briefed

13 by my staff at Everglades, they indicated to me that

14 an assessment of that definition in relation to the

15 Everglades was done and that a determination that

16 certain areas within the park would no longer qualify

17 as wetlands was made and those comments were

18 forwarded.

19 Q. Is there a definition of wetlands that you

20 would prefer or do you have a definition of wetlands

21 that you use?

22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

23 A. We use the current definition established

24 by EPA and the Corps of Engineers.

25 Q. Do you know what that definition is?

0*0*0*

1 A. I can't recite the definition for you.

2 Q. If you wanted to go and look it up, how

3 would you do it?

4 A. I would request my research and resource

5 management staff to pull it from our files.

6 Q. What is your understanding of the

7 percentage of Everglades National Park that meets the

8 current definition of wetlands established by the EPA

9 and Corps of Engineers?

10 A. Almost all of it.

11 Q. Close to a hundred percent?

12 A. Close. There are areas of developed use

13 and there may be higher areas of pine forest and tree

14 islands that may not be considered wetlands.

15 Q. Other than those areas, do you know or do

16 you recall what types of areas of the park would not

17 be considered wetlands under this wetlands manual

18 discussed in the editorial?

19 A. My understanding is that it would be those

20 areas which were not -- which did not have standing

21 water on them or were fully saturated with water, the

22 soils were fully saturated with water for significant

23 periods of the year.

24 Q. Was there to your recollection a specific

25 time frame included in the definition, time period

0*0*0*

1 for saturation in order to qualify as wetlands?

2 A. I believe there was a definition that

3 characterized that time period, but I couldn't tell

4 you specifically what it was.

5 Q. Would it be your understanding that under

6 that type of definition of wetlands the

7 characterization of certain areas of the park as

8 wetlands or not would depend on the amount of water

9 delivered to those areas through the Central and

10 South Florida Flood Control Project?

11 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

12 A. I believe the definition is as I stated.

13 It made a distinction on the period of time during

14 the year there was water saturation or standing water

15 on those lands.

16 Q. I understand that. My question is, to

17 your knowledge are there areas of the park that are

18 now dry or don't have standing water that

19 historically would have but for the operation of the

20 Central and South Florida Flood Control Project.

21 MS. PONZOLI: May I have that question

22 again, please.

23 (The question referred to was

24 thereupon read by the reporter

25 as above recorded)

0*0*0*

1 A. It is my understanding that the operation

2 of the Central and South Florida Flood Control

3 Project has altered natural water flows affecting the

4 Everglades system including the national park.

5 Q. Is it also your understanding that this

6 alteration of the natural water flows has resulted in

7 some portions of the park being dry when previously

8 they would have been wet?

9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

10 A. I would say that it has altered historical

11 wet and dry patterns.

12 Q. What is your current understanding of the

13 status of this wetlands manual that is discussed in

14 the editorial?

15 A. My understanding is that the proposed

16 redefinitions were issued for public comment by EPA.

17 Those comments were received and have undergone

18 assessment, and that EPA will address those comments

19 and issue final definitions as part of a ruling in

20 process.

21 Q. If the proposed definition of wetlands is

22 enacted such that some portions of the park are no

23 longer defined as wetlands, what is your

24 understanding as to the significance of that event

25 for the park?

0*0*0*

1 A. I think it would be a significant event

2 and at the very least it would affect the regulatory

3 evaluation of any action or activity that occurred on

4 those lands.

5 Q. Would it in your mind open up portions of

6 the park to development?

7 A. It would not open any federally-owned

8 property within the boundaries of the national park.

9 Q. What about property within the area, the

10 proposed expansion area for the park, would any of

11 that property be subject to development as you

12 understand it under this wetlands manual?

13 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to

14 form. I think we are going further and further

15 afield from where we started.

16 A. I wouldn't want to speculate on the

17 actions or intentions or prerogatives of a private

18 landowner.

19 Q. Have you and your staff analyzed this

20 proposed manual and the proposed new definition of

21 wetlands to the extent that you have evaluated what

22 the impact would be if it was adopted?

23 A. Again, the assessment of the proposal and

24 the comments on it occurred prior to my arrival here

25 so an assessment did occur and it specifically

0*0*0*

1 addressed what areas of the park would fall within

2 the definitions.

3 Q. Do you know whether that analysis

4 addressed the expansion area as well?

5 A. I assume it did.

6 Q. Have you yourself looked at that analysis

7 or studied it?

8 A. Briefly.

9 Q. I assume that was in the process of

10 studying a number of items and documents as you came

11 on board at the park, is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Is it your feeling based on what you have

14 learned from your staff and from what you have read

15 and analyzed with regard to this issue that the

16 wetlands definition in this manual is as the paper

17 here says, a political definition as opposed to a

18 scientific one?

19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't

20 think that he was called as an expert to start

21 issuing opinions on which are political and which are

22 scientific or which mix they are, by the National

23 Park Service. It is a relatively narrow area of

24 expertise, in one sense. And we have had pretty

25 lengthy questioning on this particular line.

0*0*0*

1 MR. GAINES: My understanding is that

2 Superintendent Ring is listed as an expert as to

3 objectives and priorities and identification of

4 specific external threats to Everglades National Park

5 and its resources.

6 And my question in this area is whether a

7 political definition of wetlands such as this, if in

8 fact that is what it is, would constitute an external

9 threat to the resources of Everglades National Park

10 in Superintendent Ring's opinion.

11 MS. PONZOLI: I think you failed to

12 establish a very necessary predicate. My objection

13 is on the record. I am not telling him not to

14 answer, Mr. Gaines, but I do think that you are

15 pushing this to the outer limits.

16 BY MR. GAINES:

17 Q. Do you recall the pending question, Mr.

18 Supertintendent?

19 A. I would appreciate it being repeated.

20 MR. GAINES: Okay.

21 (The question referred to was

22 thereupon read by the reporter

23 as above recorded)

24 A. It is a proposal that has not been issued

25 in a final form. I have not analyzed it in any

0*0*0*

1 detail. I assume it has elements of both science and

2 political values associated with it.

3 Q. Has Everglades National Park provided

4 comments to the proposal?

5 A. My understanding is that comments were

6 forwarded within the National Park Service and the

7 Department of Interior.

8 Q. Have you seen those comments or did you

9 participate in the drafting or the accumulation of

10 those comments in any way?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Have you seen them?

13 A. I have seen them.

14 Q. Can you tell me what basically the

15 comments are? Are they against this proposal?

16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

17 A. I can tell you that they assessed and

18 reported how the definition would apply to lands

19 within the park and categorizes areas as either

20 wetlands or non-wetlands.

21 Q. My question is more basic. Does

22 Everglades National Park have an official position on

23 the issue of whether this definition of wetlands

24 proposed in the manual should be adopted or not?

25 A. We provided internal comment to the

0*0*0*

1 Department of Interior and I assume that the

2 Department of the Interior provided official comments

3 to EPA.

4 Q. And the internal comment you said a minute

5 ago it broke down what lands would be affected. Did

6 the internal comment have a component of, we are

7 against this or we are for this or did it not get

8 into that kind of a comment?

9 A. I didn't participate in the development of

10 them. I guess I have to tell you I don't know

11 specifically what the recommendation was. And those

12 are internal review comments in developing an

13 official position.

14 Q. Who on your staff would have the best

15 knowledge of this issue, the issue being the park's

16 position on the proposed redefinition of wetlands?

17 A. In terms of its scientific basis and

18 application to the physical resources of the park, I

19 would say my research director.

20 Q. Who is that?

21 A. Dr. Michael Soukup.

22 Q. Dr. Soukup, was he the person responsible

23 for preparing the internal comments that were passed

24 on to Interior?

25 A. I am sure that he and his staff had a

0*0*0*

1 significant role to play in the preparation of those

2 comments.

3 Q. Are you aware of any other individuals

4 that played a role there?

5 A. Those comments would have been signed out

6 by the, whoever was acting as superintendent of the

7 park at the time.

8 Q. Do you know who that was?

9 A. I don't know the time that those comments

10 were sent, off the top of my head.

11 Q. Your predecessor at the park was whom?

12 A. My predecessor was Bob Chandler.

13 Q. Was there an acting superintendent after

14 Mr. Chandler's tenure and prior to your arrival?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was that?

17 A. Durand Jones.

18 Q. Do you know what period of time Mr. Jones

19 was the acting superintendent?

20 A. I believe August of 1991 through my

21 arrival in mid-April of 1992.

22 Q. Is Mr. Jones still with the park?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what capacity?

25 A. He is the assistant superintendent of the

0*0*0*

1 park.

2 MR. GAINES: Off the record.

3 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

4 after which the following proceedings

5 were had)

6 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

7 Can you read back the last question and

8 answer.

9 (The portion referred to was

10 thereupon read by the reporter

11 as above recorded)

12 BY MR. GAINES:

13 Q. Just to sum up this area, Superintendent

14 Ring, I take it from your previous answers that you

15 have not obtained a sufficient level of detail on the

16 park's comments on this wetlands manual issue to make

17 an independent determination as to whether you feel

18 the definition is political as opposed to scientific

19 or some mix of the two?

20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

21 Q. Is that correct?

22 A. The comment period on the proposed

23 definitions closed before I arrived. I have not had

24 to look into this issue in any great detail to

25 respond or provide any further comments on the

0*0*0*

1 implication of the proposed definition change. So

2 aside from a briefing on the issue, I've not gone

3 into it in any great detail with my staff.

4 Q. Have you apprised yourself as to whether

5 there is some real chance that this definition would

6 be approved by EPA or have you attempted to find out

7 what the thinking and status of EPA is on this issue?

8 A. I have read the papers and listened to and

9 read any status reports coming out of our Washington

10 office. But beyond that, I am waiting for EPA's

11 final action like everyone else is.

12 Q. Would it surprise you at this point if the

13 EPA approved the redefinition of wetlands as

14 contained in this manual?

15 A. I've been with the federal government 20

16 years. I am not surprised by much anymore.

17 Q. Would it disturb you as the superintendent

18 of this park if this redefinition which is at least

19 alleged to be politically driven put at risk portions

20 of the park resources that you are overseeing in your

21 role as superintendent?

22 A. I would be concerned by anything that put

23 at risk park resources and made fulfilling our

24 legislative obligations towards them more difficult.

25 Q. You stated earlier that you would desire

0*0*0*

1 that the scientific method be applied to problems and

2 issues facing Everglades National Park. Would that

3 desire be true in this case where we are talking

4 about the definition of wetlands?

5 A. I would hope that all available scientific

6 information would be collected and utilized in the

7 decision-making process.

8 Q. You said that in the fall of 1971 you

9 obtained part-time employment with the National Park

10 Service. What was that employment?

11 A. That was in a seasonal position as a

12 recreation aide.

13 Q. Where was that?

14 A. In the George Washington Memorial Parkway

15 in Washington, D.C. area.

16 Q. What is the George Washington Memorial

17 Parkway? It sounds like a highway to me. Is that a

18 highway?

19 A. It is a unit of the national park system

20 that stretches from Mt. Vernon to Great Falls and

21 incorporates as an administrative unit a variety of

22 different natural, recreational and historic sites.

23 Q. How large an area is that?

24 A. In acreage, approximately 7,000 acres.

25 Q. As a recreation aide, what did that

0*0*0*

1 entail? You said you had a position as a recreation

2 aide?

3 A. I was involved in assisting in the

4 presentation of outdoor recreation programs directed

5 toward urban inner city youth.

6 Q. In the Washington, D.C. area?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. How long were you in that position?

9 A. Until December of 1972.

10 Q. And then what happened next? What did you

11 do next?

12 A. I was converted into a career conditional

13 position with the National Park Service.

14 Q. Does that mean you were now a full-time

15 employee, no longer temporary but still probationary

16 in some way?

17 A. I was a full-time employee while I was a

18 temporary. I was placed into a career status

19 position.

20 Q. What does the conditional refer to?

21 A. A normal probationary period for all

22 initial career placements of federal employees.

23 Q. How long did that last?

24 A. At the time that conditional status

25 extended for approximately ten months after the

0*0*0*

1 career appointment.

2 Q. When you were converted to this career

3 conditional position, were you still doing the youth

4 outreach programs?

5 A. No. I was appointed to a higher graded

6 career position in the administrative office of the

7 headquarters of the George Washington Memorial

8 Parkway.

9 Q. What type of duties did you have in that

10 position?

11 A. A variety of duties in that position

12 primarily having to do with procurement and

13 contracting.

14 Q. How long did you remain in that position?

15 A. Approximately one year.

16 Q. Until the end of 1973?

17 A. Yes. A little bit longer than one year.

18 Q. Early 1974?

19 A. That's what I recall.

20 Q. Sometime late 1973 or early 1974, what did

21 you do then?

22 A. I was competitively selected into a higher

23 graded position in the same office.

24 Q. In that position what were your duties?

25 A. I was a budget analyst.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Did this office only oversee issues with

2 regard to the George Washington Parkway or was it

3 other parks as well?

4 A. It oversaw budget issues related to the

5 administrative unit of the George Washington Memorial

6 Parkway which included a number of National Park

7 Service sites.

8 Q. All in the Washington, D.C. area?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. How long did you remain in the budget

11 analysis position there?

12 A. A little over one year.

13 Q. What was next?

14 A. I was competitively selected into a higher

15 graded position in the same office.

16 Q. What was that position?

17 A. That position title was program analyst.

18 Q. What did that entail?

19 A. All responsibilities for budget analysis,

20 recommendation of fund allocations and the analysis

21 and recommendation on organizational funding and

22 operating program priorities to the superintendent of

23 the park.

24 Q. Who was that, who was the superintendent

25 at the time?

0*0*0*

1 A. Good question.

2 Q. I knew I would hit one sooner or later

3 A. I believe it was Charles Vietl.

4 Q. Vietl?

5 A. I believe so.

6 Q. V I T A L?

7 A. V I E T L.

8 Q. How long was your tenure as a program

9 analyst?

10 A. Until June of 1975.

11 Q. In June of 1975 what occurred?

12 A. I was reassigned as a site manager at one

13 of the operating sites under the supervision of the

14 George Washington Memorial Parkway.

15 Q. What site was that?

16 A. It was actually two sites which were

17 co-located, Glen Echo Park and the Clara Barton

18 National Historic Site.

19 Q. They were located together?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What are the duties of a site manager?

22 A. Basically the planning and the oversight

23 of all day-to-day operations. That includes public

24 programs, protection of visitor, maintenance and

25 repair of facilities and long-term programming for

0*0*0*

1 all of those functions.

2 Q. What kind of facility was the Clara Barton

3 National Historic Site? Is that a home?

4 A. That was a house that was the last home of

5 Clara Barton and at one point was the headquarters of

6 the American Red Cross.

7 Q. And Glen Echo Park, what kind of facility

8 is that?

9 A. That was a former Chautauqua center at the

10 turn of the century and was subsequently developed as

11 an amusement park, and after its acquisition by the

12 National Park Service as part of the Potomac

13 Palisades along the George Washington Parkway the

14 facilities were rehabilitated and utilized to

15 accommodate public arts and educational programs.

16 Q. As the site manager at those two sites did

17 you have to deal with any water quality issues?

18 A. I had responsibility for assuring that the

19 public water supplies were maintained and tested and

20 repaired from the point of delivery from the

21 Washington water supply system to the various

22 sanitary and drinking facilities around the site.

23 Q. How long did you remain there as site

24 manager?

25 A. Until 1978.

0*0*0*

1 Q. And in 1978 --

2 A. I was detailed from that position to the

3 C&O Canal National Historical Park.

4 Q. Is that also in the Washington, D.C. area?

5 A. It extends from Georgetown to Cumberland,

6 Maryland and basically represents 184 miles of the

7 Maryland shoreline of the Potomac River.

8 Q. And you say you were detailed there. What

9 was your position there?

10 A. I was the acting assistant

11 superintendent.

12 Q. How long did you hold that position?

13 A. Several months, just between four and six

14 months. I can't remember exactly the time period.

15 Q. What were the duties, what were your

16 duties as acting assistant superintendent?

17 A. I was the chief deputy to the

18 superintendent. I had line responsibility for the

19 supervision of day-to-day park operations and

20 personnel.

21 Q. You said this was 180 miles of shoreline

22 along the Potomac?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Is that all undeveloped land or what does

25 it consist of?

0*0*0*

1 A. It is a narrow corridor of primarily

2 natural land through which a historic canal system

3 had been constructed in the early 1800s.

4 Q. Is that canal part of the Potomac River?

5 A. It is separate from the Potomac River.

6 Q. Does it flow into the Potomac?

7 A. It doesn't flow as a canal system.

8 Portions of it no longer hold water. Portions have

9 been rewatered, primarily 20 to 30 miles from

10 Washington, D.C., from Georgetown north out of

11 Washington, D.C., the tow path structure is

12 essentially intact and used for a variety of public

13 and recreational purposes and there are a significant

14 number of historic ruins and structures that are

15 maintained along the length of the park.

16 Q. The tow path, is that the path that

17 animals or some conveyance would pull barges up and

18 down the canal?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Did you have any occasion to deal with

21 water quality issues in that position other than

22 drinking water for the public?

23 A. One of my responsibilities was to assure

24 that wells and hand pumps providing drinking water to

25 the public were kept in good repair and tested for

0*0*0*

1 potability.

2 Q. How long did you remain in that position?

3 A. As I said, approximately four to six

4 months.

5 Q. Okay, sorry. Then after that, did you

6 move on elsewhere?

7 A. That was a detailed assignment. I

8 returned to the Glen Echo and Clara Barton site and

9 then was subsequently competitively promoted to the

10 position of chief of visitor services and resource

11 management at the headquarters of the George

12 Washington Memorial Parkway.

13 Q. And that takes us to approximately early

14 1979?

15 A. Late 1978 or early 1979, I believe.

16 Q. What were your duties as the chief of

17 visitor services and resource management?

18 A. I had direct line supervisory oversight

19 for approximately a half dozen program sites along

20 the George Washington Memorial Parkway similar in

21 scope and scale to the site that I had managed at

22 Glen Echo and Clara Barton. So I had six site

23 managers reporting to me and was responsible for the

24 general direction and oversight of their operations.

25 In addition, I had a functional staff and

0*0*0*

1 was the chief staff advisor to the superintendent on

2 matters pertaining to public interpretation and

3 visitor services and resource management and

4 protection of both natural and cultural resources

5 throughout the park unit.

6 Q. How long did you remain in that position?

7 A. Until May of 1981.

8 Q. During your tenure as the resource manager

9 there did you have any occasion to deal with water

10 quality issues beyond the drinking water for park

11 visitors?

12 A. We had responsibility to assess and work

13 cooperatively with various state and local

14 jurisdictions on the public contact conditions, water

15 quality conditions of the Potomac River insofar as

16 they had an effect on public health.

17 We had a responsibility for oversight and

18 assessment of several marsh and wetlands systems

19 extending along the Potomac River and estuary from

20 Alexandria south to Mt. Vernon.

21 Q. What marsh wetlands systems were included

22 in that? Did they have names?

23 A. Some did, some didn't.

24 Q. Can you recall any of the names?

25 A. Dike marsh was one.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Any others?

2 A. Off the top of my head, I don't recall

3 specific names. As I said, they were a variety of

4 sizes and configurations.

5 Q. How would you compare the wetlands that

6 you managed in that situation with the ones you are

7 currently charged with managing in the Everglades in

8 terms of type of wetlands?

9 A. They certainly had significant

10 characteristic differences. They were nowhere near

11 as extensive.

12 They were affected in significantly

13 different ways by the estuarine river flows of the

14 Potomac River compared to the flows occurring in the

15 Everglades system. The biological communities were

16 significantly different.

17 Q. Were those wetlands nutrient poor

18 environments such as the Everglades?

19 A. I would not characterize them in that

20 manner.

21 Q. Were there any major issues that came up

22 during your tenure there concerning the viability or

23 any threats to those wetlands?

24 A. Siltation associated with man-caused

25 alterations of the river shoreline, encroachment of

0*0*0*

1 exotic plant species into wetlands areas, water

2 quality issues related to surface and runoff and

3 leaching of septic material from residential

4 facilities; a variety of issues had a bearing and an

5 effect on the condition of those wetlands to varying

6 degrees.

7 Q. Siltation you mentioned, is that the

8 accumulation of silt?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you talk about the encroachment of

11 exotic plants, vegetation, what type of exotic plants

12 were you talking about there?

13 A. There were several, chief among them were

14 Hydrilla and Kudzu. Kudzu was more, created more of

15 an encroachment on the shoreline. Hydrilla was a

16 wetlands species that was encroaching into those

17 areas.

18 Q. What was the primary native vegetation in

19 those wetlands?

20 A. I don't think there was one. There was a

21 diversity of vegetation.

22 Q. When you talk about surface runoff, that

23 was from urban runoff or agricultural?

24 A. Primarily urban.

25 Q. During your tenure there were any of these

0*0*0*

1 issues addressed and dealt with that you can recall?

2 A. There was an awareness of the issues and

3 some coordination with local governmental agencies on

4 the, to ascertain the nature and extent of the

5 conditions associated with them. And based on what

6 information could be obtained, an attempt to comment

7 on for both state and county and city zoning and

8 permitting decisions insofar as they might create a

9 positive or an adverse effect on conditions within

10 the park.

11 Q. Were you dealing with those kinds of

12 issues directly yourself or someone on your staff?

13 A. I had a resource management specialist on

14 my staff who was primarily involved with those

15 issues, but I gave him guidance on both priorities

16 and the approach, his approach in dealing with

17 various government agencies.

18 Q. You said you were there until May of 1981.

19 What occurred in May of 1981?

20 A. I was competitively selected and promoted

21 into the position of superintendent of Gates of the

22 Arctic National Park and Reserve.

23 Q. Where is that located?

24 A. In the central Brooks Range of Alaska.

25 Q. Is that above the Arctic Circle?

0*0*0*

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you say you were competitively

3 selected, this is a position you applied for?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. As the superintendent of that national

6 park, what were your duties? What are the duties of

7 a superintendent?

8 A. The oversight of all park resources and

9 public uses, the direction of all personnel and staff

10 associated with the operation of the park and the

11 responsibility to initiate and guide long-term

12 assessment and planning efforts associated with the

13 protection and use and operation of the park.

14 Q. How large a facility or area is

15 encompassed by the Gates of the Arctic Park and

16 Preserve?

17 A. It is approximately 8 and a half million

18 acres.

19 Q. What type of terrain does that consist of?

20 A. On the south slopes of the Brooks Range it

21 consists of boreal forest, the central areas it

22 consists of very rugged mountainous terrain above

23 tree line, and on the north slope it consists of

24 transition from mountainous terrain through foothills

25 to open Arctic tundra.

0*0*0*

1 Q. I take it there are visitor facilities at

2 the park there?

3 A. There are no visitor facilities within the

4 boundaries of the park.

5 Q. No, there are not. Are visitors welcome

6 to the park?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. Camping allowed in the park?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But there are no permanent structures

11 there?

12 A. No, not inside the boundaries.

13 Q. What about administration building,

14 something like that?

15 A. Not inside the boundary.

16 Q. Is there one outside the boundary?

17 A. Several.

18 Q. Am I correct in assuming there are no

19 wetlands associated with this park?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I am not correct. There are wetlands?

22 A. There are.

23 Q. What is a wetland? We have been talking

24 about definitions of wetlands. How do you define it?

25 A. I define it in terms of its meeting the

0*0*0*

1 criteria published by EPA and the Corps of Engineers,

2 the primary agencies involved in the regulation of

3 wetlands.

4 So from the standpoint of my fulfilling my

5 responsibilities as a park manager I define it in

6 terms of the definitions that are legally

7 established.

8 Q. Without asking you to sit here and try to

9 give me a verbatim account of what that definition

10 is, because I don't think that is fair to do, can you

11 just give me a general idea of what the definition

12 is?

13 A. They are areas characterized by the

14 presence of water either in a standing surface

15 condition or in, from the standpoint of saturation in

16 soils, and they are also characterized by a variety

17 of water tolerant and water dependent biological

18 communities.

19 Q. Does the definition include areas where

20 the water is frozen, for example, tundra? Do you

21 consider the frozen tundra areas to be wetlands?

22 A. Insofar as your characterization implies

23 the presence of water, then, yes, it is very likely

24 that those locales would come under the established

25 definitions of wetlands.

0*0*0*

1 Q. I certainly don't claim any expertise

2 about tundra and whether or not it has water in it.

3 When you said there were wetlands in the Gates of the

4 Arctic park, what type of areas were you referring

5 to?

6 A. A significant number of rivers and

7 tributaries, significant numbers of marsh areas and

8 tundra, if you will, that were routinely water

9 saturated or had standing water on them. A number of

10 lakes.

11 Q. Do you consider lakes and rivers

12 themselves to be within the definition of wetlands?

13 A. Within the established legal definitions,

14 they are water bodies requiring the same kinds of

15 sensitivity and treatment.

16 Q. I am asking, is a water body like that

17 considered a wetland or part of a wetland?

18 A. I believe it is.

19 Q. Were there areas there in the Gates of the

20 Arctic that were perpetually frozen wetlands? Is

21 that a proper label to put on some of that land?

22 A. Are you referring to surface conditions?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 Q. Why not?

0*0*0*

1 A. There is no area in the Gates of the

2 Arctic that was perpetually frozen.

3 Q. What about soil saturation? I think one

4 of your definitions or characteristics of wetlands,

5 you said it was by the presence of standing surface

6 water or soil saturated with water.

7 Would soil that is saturated and frozen

8 constitute a wetland under your definition?

9 A. In the context of those areas of Gates of

10 the Arctic, yes.

11 Q. I have heard the term permafrost. Is that

12 descriptive of what I just asked about, soil with

13 water in it that is perpetually frozen, is that

14 permafrost?

15 A. What you were just asking about didn't

16 specify a state of perpetual frozen condition.

17 Q. I don't really need to beat this to death

18 but can a wetland be perpetually frozen and still be

19 a wetland in your mind?

20 A. I suppose it could. None of the resources

21 that I was dealing with at Gates of the Arctic were

22 perpetually frozen except for subsurface areas,

23 permafrost as you characterized it.

24 Q. Did you have water quality issues to deal

25 with in your tenure at Gates of the Arctic?

0*0*0*

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long was that tenure, by the way?

3 A. Five years.

4 Q. So that was until 1986?

5 A. 1986.

6 Q. What types of water quality issues did you

7 deal with up in Alaska?

8 A. Ascertaining baseline conditions of

9 various water resources within the park including the

10 inventory of those resources, the identification of

11 any issues that might be problematic and require

12 research, planning or management intervention, in the

13 case of several instances in pursuit of that planning

14 and management activity.

15 Q. Did you have problems up there with

16 disturbances by man affecting the water quality in

17 the park?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kind of problems were those? What

20 kinds of disturbances?

21 A. The primary area of disturbance and

22 concern was associated with placer gold mining

23 operation.

24 Q. What is that, placer gold mining

25 operation?

0*0*0*

1 A. It is basically the processing of gravels

2 in stream and river beds for the retrieval of gold or

3 other minerals.

4 Q. What water quality problems were

5 associated with that?

6 A. The most significant and visual problem

7 associated with that was turbidity and the dispersion

8 of suspended solids into the water column of a

9 natural stream or river. Associated with that, with

10 the disturbance out of the sediments of heavy metals

11 and other potential toxic substances and the

12 distribution of them into the water column and the

13 effect on natural occurring, naturally occurring

14 biological communities and natural conditions in

15 those streams and rivers.

16 Q. Was there a documented effect on the

17 biological communities as a result of that problem?

18 A. There were generically documented effects

19 of those kinds of conditions on microorganisms and

20 fish communities.

21 Q. What do you mean by generically

22 documented?

23 A. Placer gold mining and its effect on

24 stream courses and biological communities was studied

25 in a variety of locations around Alaska. Those

0*0*0*

1 studies supported the substance of those kinds of

2 effects wherever those kinds of disturbances

3 occurred.

4 Q. When you say generically documented, does

5 that mean that there are a large number of studies

6 which support this or that directly support this or

7 that there was a body of work which taken together

8 would support this?

9 A. I would say both.

10 Q. Was there a key study or studies, one or

11 two that you could point to and say, here's where we

12 can document these effects?

13 A. I could not off the top of my head make

14 such a reference.

15 Q. Were there people on your staff who would

16 be more familiar with that, more directly involved?

17 A. There were people on my staff and on the

18 staff of the regional office that were involved in

19 the monitoring and testing and evaluation of specific

20 conditions at various claims in placer mining

21 operations.

22 Q. What if anything was done during your

23 tenure there to address this problem or correct this

24 problem of the gold mining operations?

25 A. Under existing regulations anyone desiring

0*0*0*

1 to conduct mining operations within the boundaries of

2 a unit of the national park system had to conform

3 with the Mining in the Parks Act, all of which -- and

4 the regulations implementing it, all of which

5 required that a plan of operations be proposed,

6 reviewed and approved by the National Park Service

7 prior to the commencement of any mining operations on

8 valid patented or unpatented mining claims.

9 Q. Was this approval process undertaken with

10 regard to the mining activity which then later was

11 documented to cause these problems?

12 A. The approval process looked at all aspects

13 of the mining operation of potential disturbance and

14 adverse effect on park resources, including water

15 quality.

16 Q. I guess my question is, you have mining

17 going on in the park as I understand it which is

18 causing these problems with the biological

19 communities. Was that mining that caused these

20 problems approved in advance by the Park Service?

21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.

22 A. In some cases we came upon mining

23 operations on valid claims that had not been approved

24 as part of a required plan of operations by the

25 National Park Service and in those instances we

0*0*0*

1 intervened and required that such a plan be submitted

2 and approved.

3 In some cases those plans were submitted

4 and were reviewed and approved in an attempt to

5 approve only those operations which were required for

6 the claimant to exercise his valid property rights

7 and would minimize any and all intrusion on park

8 resources and would subsequently require reclamation

9 of those resources.

10 Q. So in dealing with this issue you were

11 faced with a balance, as I understand it, between

12 property rights on one hand and preserving the park

13 resources on the other?

14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

15 A. In every instance we were faced with a

16 responsibility to exercise the rights of the United

17 States to their fullest in protecting park resources.

18 Q. I take it that, based on your previous

19 answer, that in some instances the rights of the

20 United States when exercised to their fullest had to

21 be balanced against the private property rights of

22 the gold miners in these instances to mine their

23 claims or their mines?

24 MS. PONZOLI: Same objection as before.

25 Q. Is that correct?

0*0*0*

1 A. In some instances when the rights of the

2 United States were exercised to their fullest some

3 mining operation had to be permitted.

4 Q. And that mining operation which had to be

5 permitted was documented to cause some problems with

6 the park resources, the biological communities, water

7 quality?

8 A. In every instance we attempted to place

9 requirements on the operation that would avoid those

10 effects. In the time that I was in Alaska a whole

11 series of new units of the national park system had

12 just been established and were all confronting the

13 fact of these operations.

14 Every time a permit was issued it was

15 expected that known adverse effects would be

16 mitigated. Monitoring of those operations often led

17 to the awareness of previously -- awareness and

18 documentation of previously unknown effects and the

19 subsequent addition of requirements to mitigate those

20 effects.

21 Q. And the mitigation under those permits was

22 the responsibility of the owners of the mining

23 operations, is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. How was the mitigation accomplished?

0*0*0*

1 A. In a variety of ways, chief among them was

2 the use of settling ponds and recirculating ponds

3 with reference to water quality mitigation.

4 Q. And I take it that those were structures

5 built for the water to pass through so that the

6 sediments would have a chance to settle prior to

7 entering or reentering the system?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. You specified there that was with regard

10 to water quality mitigation. Was there some other

11 type of mitigation also involved?

12 A. The nature of a mining operation, placer

13 or otherwise, in a remote area of the bush implied

14 disturbance to gain access for the transport of

15 equipment and supplies. It implied disturbance

16 associated with support and housing facilities for

17 the operators. And it implied generation of waste

18 that had to be removed.

19 Q. At the time that you left Alaska, your

20 tenure at the Gates of the Arctic, was this issue an

21 ongoing problem?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you kept up with the developments in

24 that area as far as how that issue is being dealt

25 with now?

0*0*0*

1 A. Only in a general fashion.

2 Q. Do you know if there has been any

3 significant changes in how that issue is being dealt

4 with since you left?

5 A. I know that there has been litigation and

6 significant commitment of personnel and resources by

7 the National Park Service to document and assess in a

8 comprehensive fashion the effects and then necessary

9 mitigation measures associated with placer mining

10 operations. And I believe there has been some

11 attempt to extinguish -- to review the validity of

12 claims to assure that valid rights do exist and in

13 some instances I believe actions have been undertaken

14 to extinguish those rights.

15 Q. Do you have any connection or involvement

16 with those efforts or the litigation?

17 A. I have had no connection with those

18 efforts in any official or detailed fashion since

19 leaving Alaska in May of 1986.

20 Q. When you left Alaska in May of 1986 where

21 did you go do?

22 A. I went to Delaware Water Gap National

23 Recreation Area.

24 Q. In what position?

25 A. As the assistant superintendent.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Did you apply for that job?

2 A. I was offered that job and agreed to

3 accept it.

4 Q. You were willing to go from a position of

5 superintendent to one of assistant superintendent?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Why is that?

8 A. I viewed that position as an opportunity

9 to expand my management and operational experience.

10 I had completed the primary task, tasks

11 that I had set out to accomplish in the position in

12 Alaska.

13 MR. GAINES: Do you want to take a break

14 now?

15 MS. PONZOLI: Yes.

16 MR. GAINES: It is 11:45.

17 MS. PONZOLI: 12:30?

18 MS. PONZOLI: Let's make it an hour.

19 (Luncheon recess)

0*0*0*

1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 12:45 p.m.

3 MR. GAINES: We are back on the record.

4 BY MR. GAINES:

5 Q. Superintendent Ring, Ms. Ponzoli was just

6 advising me while we were off the record that there

7 are additional documents that you brought with you

8 today responsive to the deposition subpoena which we

9 did not previously receive in the document

10 production.

11 Can you identify for me what documents you

12 have with you here today so we can see what we need

13 to do with them?

14 A. Sure.

15 Code of Federal Regulations, Title 36,

16 Parks, Forests and Public Property; Public Law

17 101-229 titled the Everglades National Park

18 Protection and Expansion Act of 1989, along with

19 committee reports; Master Plan for Everglades

20 National Park dated May of 1979; Title 16 of the US

21 Code; Management Policies of the National Park

22 Service dated 1988; and a Draft Resource Management

23 Plan for Everglades National Park Recommended October

24 1991.

25 Q. What was that last one, draft?

0*0*0*

1 A. Resource Management Plan for Everglades

2 National Park.

3 Q. Can I see that last document you referred

4 to, please?

5 A. Yes.

6 (Pause)

7 Q. Are you aware of why these documents were

8 not produced along with the other documents when they

9 were produced in response to the subpoena?

10 MS. PONZOLI: Superintendent Ring and I

11 discussed the subpoena. He gathered all of his

12 documents he thought were responsive. In sitting and

13 preparing for his deposition it became apparent, some

14 of these are just legal provisions which you readily

15 recognized would not have been produced but the

16 management plans to my way of thinking did seem

17 appropriate.

18 This one is a draft, that is sort of a

19 close call whether that should be available to the

20 public or not.

21 BY MR. GAINES:

22 Q. So these were documents that you realized

23 as you prepared for your deposition they were perhaps

24 responsive to the subpoena as well?

25 A. They would be documents upon which I would

0*0*0*

1 draw on dealing with a variety of management issues

2 including those pertaining to the matters at hand.

3 Again, understanding the resource

4 management plan, it is a draft and it is still

5 subject to review and revision.

6 Q. Are you directing any of the review and

7 revision of this plan?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. GAINES: Let's go off the record one

10 minute.

11 (Discussion off the record)

12 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

13 BY MR. GAINES:

14 Q. Superintendent Ring, we were speaking

15 about your move to the Delaware Water Gap national

16 resource area?

17 A. Recreation area.

18 Q. Recreation area.

19 You mentioned that one of the reasons that

20 you made that move was that you had completed the

21 primary tasks that you set out to complete in Alaska.

22 What were those tasks?

23 A. Basically to establish the park and its

24 operation, because it was authorized only several

25 months before I arrived in Alaska.

0*0*0*

1 Q. Were you the first superintendent?

2 A. Yes, I was. And to take it through its

3 first general management planning process.

4 Q. What does a general management planning

5 process entail?

6 A. It is basically a process that culminates

7 in a document called a general management plan which

8 provides the basic guidance for the management and

9 development of any park operations and activities.

10 Q. Would that include a research plan as

11 well?

12 A. It would have components in it addressing

13 a variety of issues in a very broad and general

14 fashion that would provide direction for a variety of

15 operational or implemental planning efforts.

16 Q. Did you have a research staff or

17 department in Alaska?

18 A. We had researchers based in our regional

19 office in Alaska that we drew on --

20 Q. Where was the regional office?

21 A. In Anchorage.

22 (Continuing) as needed for the management

23 and planning efforts that we were undertaking.

24 Q. There were no researchers associated

25 specifically with your park?

0*0*0*

1 A. At different times a variety of them.

2 Q. On a detailed basis, as-needed basis?

3 A. On a project-by-project basis.

4 Q. Am I correct that in Everglades National

5 Park there is an in-house or on-site research center

6 and staff?

7 A. There is a unit of the organization that I

8 supervise called the South Florida Research Center.

9 Q. And that's headed up by Dr. Soukup?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Before we get too deeply into the

12 Everglades, tell me about the Delaware Water Gap

13 recreation area. What did that area consist of?

14 A. Roughly 70,000 acres of land on either

15 side of the Delaware River in Pennsylvania and New

16 Jersey along approximately a 40 mile segment of the

17 Delaware River from Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania where

18 Interstate 80 crosses from New Jersey to Pennsylvania

19 to approximately Port Jervis, New York where

20 Interstate 84 crosses the Delaware River from New

21 York into Pennsylvania.

22 Q. Were you at the Delaware Water Gap area,

23 recreation area from May of 1986 until you came to

24 Everglades Park?

25 A. Yes, I was.

0*0*0*

1 Q. So it would have been through April of

2 1992?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. At some point in your tenure there did you

5 rise from assistant superintendent to superintendent?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did you become the superintendent?

8 A. In an acting capacity the beginning of

9 July 1988, in a permanent capacity in early October

10 of 1988.

11 Q. When you came on board as the assistant

12 superintendent who was the superintendent?

13 A. Albert Hawkins.

14 Q. Did he remain in that position until July

15 of 1988?

16 A. Officially, yes.

17 Q. Why do you qualify it with officially?

18 A. In December of 1986 he was given the

19 additional responsibilities of project manager for

20 Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton and his

21 duty station was established, relocated to Scranton.

22 Q. Did you starting then in December of 1986

23 assume the day-to-day duties that a superintendent

24 would be expected to assume? Is that accurate?

25 A. No. The assistant superintendent

0*0*0*

1 basically has line responsibility over the

2 organization and operations of the park very similar

3 to an executive officer in a military or naval

4 situation. Depending upon the individuals involved

5 there could be almost a tag team relationship between

6 them over who deals with what issues. They are both

7 expected to cover the broad range, though primarily

8 assistant handles day-to-day operations.

9 I filled that role from the outset in

10 December when Mr. Hawkins' duty station was changed

11 to Scranton and the additional responsibilities of

12 the project at Steamtown were added.

13 I took on more of the long-term planning

14 and external relations responsibilities that

15 typically he would have had primary involvement in.

16 Q. So I guess that was sort of the thrust of

17 my question, that when he left for Scranton the

18 transition from assistant superintendent to acting

19 superintendent began to evolve at that time for you?

20 A. Yes. It certainly took on -- I certainly

21 took on a greater role with regard to handling areas

22 that Mr. Hawkins would have handled. We were still

23 in close contact and periodically sat down to discuss

24 the issues related to both operations. And he was

25 still my supervisor.

0*0*0*

1 Q. What is the distinction between a national

2 park and a national recreation area?

3 A. Each are units of the national park

4 system. Each has a purpose that includes the

5 preservation of unique national resources and the

6 provision for the use and enjoyment of those

7 resources.

8 The titles typically characterize a

9 different mixture of those resources and preservation

10 versus use objectives.

11 Q. I would like to try to understand that

12 distinction and I also throw into the mix a preserve

13 because we had the Gates of the Arctic, was it

14 national park and preserve?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And then there is the Delaware Water Gap

17 National Recreation Area. So can you draw for me the

18 distinction among those three, a park, a recreation

19 area and a preserve?

20 A. In the case of Gates of the Arctic there

21 was approximately 7.6 million acres of area that was

22 designated as national park and approximately 900,000

23 acres of area that was designated as national

24 preserve.

25 The primary distinctions between those two

0*0*0*

1 designations in the case of Gates of the Arctic were

2 that in the preserve portion of the unit sport

3 hunting was permitted.

4 Q. Was permitted?

5 A. Was permitted by law and whereas in the

6 park, in an area designated as a national park sport

7 hunting is prohibited.

8 And the other distinction was that the

9 national park was also designated wilderness under

10 the provisions of the wilderness act so it had an

11 additional designation on it, the national preserve

12 was not.

13 Q. And then other than sport hunting, is

14 there any other activity that was allowed in the

15 preserve that wasn't allowed in the national park?

16 A. In the case of Gates of the Arctic, no.

17 The purpose established for both units was identical

18 and that was to preserve wilderness conditions and

19 values.

20 Q. Is there some generic, and you keep

21 specifying in the case of Gates of the Arctic, is

22 there a more general definition that the Park Service

23 uses when talking of a park, a recreation area or a

24 preserve? Is there a set definition of those terms?

25 A. There is a more generic description of

0*0*0*

1 what the various designations of units of the

2 national park system typically represent, but

3 ultimately Congress designates each of those areas,

4 and in the authorizing legislation specifies any

5 particular mix or provision that they wish to apply

6 specifically to that area.

7 Q. So in other words, if I understand what

8 you are testifying, you could have a national park

9 where hunting is allowed or you could have a preserve

10 where hunting is not allowed, it all depends on how

11 it is set up by Congress?

12 A. Ultimately that's true, though no national

13 park has ever been authorized that I am aware of by

14 Congress that provides for sport hunting.

15 Q. There is no hunting allowed in Everglades

16 National Park, I take it?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. What about fishing?

19 A. Fishing is permitted within Everglades

20 National Park, sport fishing.

21 Q. Is the fishing in the park limited in some

22 way?

23 A. In a variety of ways. Commercial fishing

24 is not permitted and sport fishing is only permitted

25 insofar as it is determined that it can occur without

0*0*0*

1 adversely affecting park resources.

2 Q. What about a recreation area, what does

3 that term indicate as far as usage of an area that we

4 wouldn't find with park or preserve?

5 A. It typically indicates that there are, in

6 addition to outstanding natural and cultural features

7 associated with it are, there are outstanding outdoor

8 recreation opportunities and resources to support

9 those activities.

10 Q. What is Loxahatchee designated, if you

11 know?

12 A. My understanding is that Loxahatchee is

13 designated as a National Wildlife Refuge.

14 Q. So that's neither a park nor a recreation

15 area nor a preserve, is that right?

16 A. It is not a unit of the national park

17 system.

18 Q. Who has jurisdiction or authority over

19 Loxahatchee?

20 A. A different agency of the Department of

21 Interior, US Department of Interior.

22 Q. Would that be the US Fish and Wildlife

23 Service?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Have you been up to Loxahatchee?

0*0*0*

1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. Toured it, did you take a tour of it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Just to leave this area, if I understood

5 your testimony, the terms of art, park, recreation

6 area, preserve, are generally descriptive but not

7 necessarily a hundred percent indicator of what kind

8 of activity we can expect to find in those areas; is

9 that accurate?

10 A. They are generally descriptive of a

11 mixture of resources and uses but in individual cases

12 some may have specific unique provisions for either

13 preservation or use as established by Congress.

14 Q. During your tenure in Delaware at the

15 Water Gap, were there water quality issues that arose

16 there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you describe what those were for me?

19 A. The areas in the immediately adjacent

20 portions of the Delaware River watershed were subject

21 to significant development pressures. The

22 implications from both increased point source and

23 non-point pollution to the main stem of the Delaware

24 within the national recreation area were significant.

25 Q. What activities were undertaken by the

0*0*0*

1 park or the Park Service during your tenure there to

2 address those issues?

3 A. An assessment of the Service's obligation

4 toward maintaining water quality conditions, given

5 the provisions of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, and

6 increasingly extensive water quality monitoring

7 program conducted in cooperation with the Delaware

8 River Basin Commission and other individuals and

9 organizations, the advocacy of a -- excuse me, the

10 assessment of the conditions ascertained through that

11 monitoring program compared to the water quality

12 standards that were in existence and ultimately the

13 advocacy of comprehensive revisions to those

14 standards to protect existing high quality conditions

15 in the main stem and the tributaries of the Delaware

16 and the tributaries within the park.

17 Q. What kind of pollutants were you

18 monitoring for there?

19 A. We were monitoring for a variety of

20 pollutants and water conditions that included both

21 chemical and biological parameters, including fecal

22 coliform, fecal strep, dissolved oxygen,

23 macroinvertebrates. I believe there were somewhere

24 between 15 and 20 indicator parameters that were

25 settled on.

0*0*0*

1 Q. I believe you stated as a result of the

2 monitoring efforts eventually you became involved in

3 advocating revisions to the water quality standards

4 up there?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Was that effort successful? Were the

7 standards revised?

8 A. I believe they are very shortly pending

9 final regulatory action.

10 Q. So they are in the process of being

11 revised as of now?

12 A. That process has gone on for several

13 years. It is almost complete.

14 Q. What standards, for what parameters what

15 standards are being revised?

16 A. Comprehensive water quality standards for

17 that portion of the river insofar as they would

18 address any point source and non-point discharges.

19 Q. Were you personally involved in those

20 efforts to obtain revisions to the standards up

21 there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did your personal involvement entail?

24 A. I was briefed by the staff at the park

25 upon my arrival with regard to areas of resource

0*0*0*

1 concern and issues. I provided direction to that

2 staff to undertake and expand data collection and

3 research in cooperation with Delaware River Basin

4 Commission, I prioritized and allocated funds to

5 support those efforts.

6 I was briefed on the progress of those

7 efforts, the results, encouraged the attention on the

8 part of local property owners municipal governments,

9 county governments, state regulatory agencies and the

10 Delaware River Basin Commission concerning the

11 implications of that data, directed the development

12 cooperatively of recommendations and agency positions

13 based on that data and advocated the adoption of a

14 regulatory package that would meet or exceed the

15 ambient water quality conditions that that data

16 described.

17 Q. Were you involved in briefing or providing

18 testimony to government entities up there with regard

19 to these issues?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you talk about the water quality data

22 in a briefing by your staff up there, how did that

23 work? You came in to the Delaware Gap position and

24 the staff gave you a briefing to bring you up to

25 speed on what the issues were in that area?

0*0*0*

1 A. Part of my responsibility in arriving and

2 beginning the work at the national recreation area

3 included obtaining from all elements of the

4 organization a comprehensive review and assessment of

5 their operation and program and understanding from

6 them the issues that they were attempting to deal

7 with in all aspects of park operations.

8 So in pursuing that orientation and

9 briefing I was provided information in regards to

10 water quality issues.

11 Q. In that type of situation did you accept

12 the conclusions presented to you by staff as to what

13 the problems were and what the data reflected or did

14 you engage in some kind of independent evaluation of

15 your own to arrive at a conclusion?

16 A. When I heard from my staff that there were

17 issues of concern I asked them to brief me on what

18 they knew about those issues and I conducted an

19 investigation using my staff to obtain additional

20 information having a bearing on the issue until I

21 felt knowledgeable enough to reach a conclusion

22 regarding further action.

23 Q. Then I take it at some point in 1992 you

24 applied for the superintendent's position in

25 Everglades National Park, is that correct?

0*0*0*

1 A. Actually it was in late 1991.

2 Q. Do you remember what month?

3 A. November, October or November. November,

4 I believe.

5 Q. How did you learn that that position was

6 available to be applied for?

7 A. There is a weekly publication of

8 opportunities based on vacant positions around the

9 National Park Service that is published and provided

10 to all units of the national park system.

11 Q. Was your friend, Maureen Finnerty, still

12 at the park at that time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When did she leave?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Do you still have any contact with her?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where is she now?

19 A. She is superintendent of Olympic National

20 Park.

21 Q. Is that in Washington?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After applying for the position in late

24 1991, what was the process that you had to go through

25 before you ultimately received the position and

0*0*0*

1 became the superintendent?

2 A. My written application was submitted by

3 the deadline established. I had phone conversation

4 with the selecting official.

5 Q. Who was that?

6 A. The regional director for the southeast

7 region of the National Park Service, Jim Coleman, and

8 I was offered the job by phone.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. In early February. Actually the middle of

11 February 1992.

12 Q. As of that time, the time you were offered

13 the job by phone, had you traveled down to the park

14 as part of this process?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you accept the job during that phone

17 conversation?

18 A. Yes. Let me clarify, I accepted the job in

19 the second phone conversation when it was offered to

20 me.

21 Q. Other than Jim Coleman, was there any

22 other person that you discussed your application

23 with?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was that?

0*0*0*

1 A. The person foremost, my wife.

2 Q. I take it your wife is not a superior of

3 yours in the National Park Service but you just spoke

4 to her as --

5 A. She is a superior of mine, not in the

6 National Park Service at the moment.

7 Q. Was your wife at one time employed by the

8 National Park Service?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In what capacity?

11 A. She was a regional chief of concessions

12 management for the national capital region.

13 Q. She is no longer with the Park Service?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Other than your family members and Mr.

16 Coleman, was there anyone else, and when I say did

17 you discuss with anyone, I mean in terms of screening

18 procedure or interview process, whatever you had to

19 go through to obtain the position, or was Mr. Coleman

20 the only person?

21 A. In terms of the interviewing and selection

22 process?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As I understand it, you had two phone

0*0*0*

1 conversations with him during the process?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Did you meet with him personally at all

4 prior to accepting the job?

5 A. After applying for it?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. I believe we may have had one encounter at

8 a conference during the process.

9 Q. What conference was that?

10 A. An annual conference of the Association of

11 National Park Rangers.

12 Q. When was that and where?

13 A. It was in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

14 sometime during the late fall of 1991.

15 Q. When you say you had an encounter, was

16 there a substantial discussion that you had with him

17 at that time about your application and position at

18 the park?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Or just a hello, how are you doing kind of

21 encounter or something in between?

22 A. We both happened to be at the conference.

23 We talked briefly in a social gathering.

24 I basically acknowledged that I had

25 applied and he acknowledged that he knew it.

0*0*0*

1 Q. And then there was this, I guess the first

2 telephone conversation that you had with him, was

3 that before or after this encounter?

4 A. I believe after.

5 Q. Was that phone conversation basically the

6 interview process that you went through?

7 A. We discussed the job.

8 Q. In the second phone conversation, was that

9 for him to call you up and tell you that you were

10 offered the position and you accepted it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the first phone conversation can you

13 recall the date of that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. The month?

16 A. It was sometime between the beginning of

17 December and the end of January, 1991 to 1992 but I

18 am not sure I can be any more specific than that

19 without going back and checking.

20 Q. As of the time of that conversation what

21 familiarity if any did you have with the issues

22 concerning Everglades National Park in the federal

23 litigation that had been going on down here since

24 1988?

25 A. I had a general awareness of the issues

0*0*0*

1 relating to the park and of the litigation.

2 Q. What was the source of that awareness?

3 A. Constant communication with a variety of

4 professionals and managers within the National Park

5 Service regarding issues pertaining to the service

6 and the system as a whole.

7 Q. So you are talking about an awareness of

8 these issues and the litigation because you were

9 connected with the Park Service and this was an issue

10 that was significant to the Park Service so you were

11 at least attuned to it to that level?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Did you at the time of applying for the

14 superintendent's job do any more in depth research or

15 analysis as to what that litigation was about and the

16 current status of it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was that? What did you do? What was

19 that process?

20 A. I communicated with as many acquaintances

21 as I felt reasonable to gain additional perspective

22 on issues related to the Everglades including the

23 litigation.

24 Q. Were these acquaintances within the

25 National Park Service?

0*0*0*

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Any outside the National Park Service?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who did you communicate with outside the

5 National Park Service?

6 A. I am not sure I recall individuals. I

7 have a wide range of acquaintances related to

8 conservation issues.

9 Q. Did you undertake this effort prior to

10 submitting your written application or after?

11 A. Prior.

12 Q. Can you remember the names of any of the

13 individuals that you communicated with on these

14 issues?

15 A. I can remember some.

16 Q. Can you tell me those?

17 A. I believe I communicated with several of

18 the prior superintendents.

19 Q. Mr. Chandler?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Finley?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Anyone else?

24 A. I may have talked to Mr. Morehead. I

25 talked to a variety of acquaintances within the

0*0*0*

1 management structure of the National Park Service,

2 some members of the conservation community and some

3 members of the -- some staff acquaintances with the

4 Congress.

5 Q. Who in the conservation community did you

6 confer with?

7 A. I don't recall specifically.

8 Q. You have acquaintances with various

9 conservation or environmental groups?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Sierra Club, would that be one of the

12 groups?

13 A. In the course of 20 years I have met,

14 dealt with and maintained contact with a variety of

15 individuals who are focused on conservation issues.

16 They aren't all working at the same locations and for

17 the same people that they were originally so I would

18 not characterize them in terms of one organization or

19 another.

20 Q. Can you recall the names of any of these

21 individuals that you spoke to about Everglades issues

22 prior to your application?

23 A. None stands out in terms of an in depth

24 conversation. I know I did speak to several but I

25 speak to a number of those folks on a variety of

0*0*0*

1 issues on a continuing basis, so I don't recall

2 particulars of one conversation relating to

3 Everglades.

4 Q. Did you have occasion to speak with

5 anybody connected with the agricultural community

6 down here?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Other than prior Superintendents Chandler,

9 Finley and Morehead and conservation community people

10 who you can't recall specifically, were there other

11 people outside the Park Service that you sought input

12 from on Everglades issues prior to your application?

13 A. I believe that the questions regarding the

14 status of Everglades came up in or may have come up

15 with discussions I had with staff members from the

16 National Park Service authorizing committees in

17 Congress.

18 Q. Can you recall any of those individuals?

19 A. No. They weren't of -- I know who those

20 individuals are as a matter of position but I don't

21 recall -- I didn't contact any one of them and say,

22 let's talk about the Everglades. I have had routine

23 contact with them on variety of issues in relation to

24 my employment at the Delaware Water Gap and as

25 ongoing Service-wide issues and I know in the context

0*0*0*

1 of those discussions that the topic of Everglades

2 came up.

3 Q. Who within the Park Service other than the

4 people we already discussed did you seek to get this

5 additional perspective on the Everglades and

6 litigation from?

7 A. I remember having one conversation with a

8 manager named Bob Cunningham.

9 Q. Where is he located?

10 A. He's the general superintendent of the

11 southern Arizona group.

12 Q. Do you recall what he told you about the

13 Everglades?

14 A. He told me that his general sense was that

15 the system was under severe stress. I took that to

16 mean under biological stress from a variety of

17 sources.

18 Q. What was his background that enabled him

19 to give you that opinion? What contact did he have

20 with the Everglades?

21 A. Bob is an individual that I worked closely

22 with in Alaska. He was the superintendent of Denali

23 National Park. He has extensive contacts with and

24 experience with national resources issues within the

25 course of his career in the National Park Service. I

0*0*0*

1 place a great deal of weight in his counsel.

2 Q. Was there anyone else that you spoke to

3 that you can recall?

4 A. Again, I am sure there was. In terms of

5 specific conversations related to the Everglades, I

6 really couldn't single them out. I make it a

7 business and a habit of staying in touch with a

8 variety of people on issues pertaining to the

9 significant problems that the units of the system and

10 the service are having.

11 Q. In addition to your communications with

12 these various individuals, did you do any other type

13 of research to further acquaint yourself with the

14 Everglades and its problems at the time of your

15 application?

16 A. I gathered what written material and

17 publications were readily available on the area.

18 Q. Was that a lot of material?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Can you recall what it was that you were

21 able to gather?

22 A. I have some books describing the resource

23 in the context of other national parks, I have some

24 information, maps and publicly available publications

25 that are sold to the public that I obtained and

0*0*0*

1 reviewed. That's primarily it.

2 Q. What about the litigation itself that was

3 pending at the time and is still pending concerning

4 the park and other areas of the Everglades? What did

5 you do if anything to further acquaint yourself with

6 that and those issues?

7 A. Again, at the time I had a general

8 awareness from continuing discussions with my peers.

9 I acquainted myself through conversations with the

10 general status. But beyond that, nothing.

11 Q. Did you have any conversations at that

12 time with anybody from Ms. Ponzoli's office, the US

13 Attorney's Office?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you aware of the fact that there had

16 been a settlement agreement entered into in the

17 litigation at that time?

18 A. I was aware that settlement negotiations

19 were going on and had reached some sort of consensus

20 but I was also aware that no final settlement had

21 been approved.

22 Q. This was as you understood it prior to the

23 federal judge's approval of the settlement agreement?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. Did you see a copy of the proposed

0*0*0*

1 settlement agreement at that time?

2 A. Prior to my application?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No.

5 Q. When did you first see a copy of the

6 settlement agreement?

7 A. After I accepted the position, I asked

8 that some materials be sent to me.

9 Q. And that was among them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So based on these conversations and the

12 reading of these general materials you acquainted

13 yourself, I guess, somewhat more fully with the

14 Everglades and went ahead and applied and received

15 the position, is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you knew what you were getting into?

18 Or maybe not.

19 A. I will say that the only thing that's

20 truly surprised me since making the decision to apply

21 has been Hurricane Andrew.

22 Q. That surprised a lot of people.

23 A. I definitely wasn't expecting that.

24 Q. I definitely want to get into Hurricane

25 Andrew at some point but while we are in this area,

0*0*0*

1 let me kind of keep on this track.

2 After you accepted the position of

3 superintendent you then, I take it, tried to continue

4 to expand your familiarity and knowledge about the

5 park and the Everglades and all the related issues

6 and as a result of that effort requested that some

7 materials be sent to you, correct?

8 A. Prior to applying for and accepting the

9 position I needed a sufficient and got a sufficient

10 background on the issues here to determine whether or

11 not this was something I wanted to personally get

12 involved in. Subsequent to accepting the position I

13 began a process of briefing myself in preparation for

14 having to fulfill the responsibilities of

15 superintendent.

16 MS. PONZOLI: Off the record.

17 (Discussion off the record)

18 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

19 BY MR. GAINES:

20 Q. Among the materials that you stated you

21 asked for was the settlement agreement in the federal

22 lawsuit. Can you recall what other materials you

23 requested or that were sent to you after you accepted

24 the position?

25 A. I can't recall specifically. I asked that

0*0*0*

1 materials like the general management plan, the

2 legislation for the park, the settlement agreement,

3 things like that, be passed along to me.

4 Q. What about the then current working draft

5 of the SWIM plan for the Everglades, did you also

6 review that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you aware at that time of the SWIM

9 plan or the SWIM planning process?

10 A. Not in any specific detail.

11 Q. Who was it that you communicated with to

12 obtain those materials?

13 A. My initial discussions were with Diane

14 East who was the secretary from my office and with

15 Durand Jones who was the acting superintendent at the

16 time.

17 Q. Did you review any other documents or

18 pleadings from the federal lawsuit other than the

19 settlement agreement?

20 A. When?

21 Q. During this initial post-acceptance self-

22 briefing phase where you had these documents sent to

23 you?

24 A. I participated in one orientation and

25 briefing trip down to the Everglades during the time

0*0*0*

1 between accepting the position and coming on duty.

2 Q. When was that?

3 A. Late March.

4 Q. How long did that last, that trip?

5 A. I believe it was approximately three days.

6 Q. Can you tell me what occurred during that

7 time?

8 A. No, probably not.

9 MS. PONZOLI: Counsel, I don't mind that

10 he tells you things that occurred between his staff

11 and himself. To the extent -- I don't honestly

12 recall, but if he were briefed by attorneys during

13 that time he would not be free to discuss those

14 meetings.

15 MR. GAINES: Obviously or maybe not

16 obviously --

17 MS. PONZOLI: I can't recall if he were at

18 that time or not so if he wasn't briefed by attorneys

19 at that time I have no problem with him discussing

20 what went on and discussions that took place outside

21 the presence of attorneys, if there were attorneys

22 there, that is perfectly fine.

23 MR. GAINES: Is it your position, can he

24 answer as to whether or not he had discussions with

25 attorneys without getting into the substance?

0*0*0*

100

1 MS. PONZOLI: Sure. I am telling you

2 right now I can't remember. He clearly has been

3 briefed by me at some point and I don't remember

4 when.

5 BY MR. GAINES:

6 Q. During that three-day period do you recall

7 whether you had any contact with Ms. Ponzoli or

8 anyone else from the US Attorney's Office?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I take it you did have such contact?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did they give you some more detail and

13 briefing on the status of the litigation?

14 A. That was the topic of discussion.

15 Q. Was it Ms. Ponzoli you met with?

16 MS. PONZOLI: You may answer.

17 A. Yes, she was one of them.

18 Q. Do you recall who else if anyone was

19 involved in that briefing?

20 A. I am not certain in terms of, are you

21 referring to legal staff?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I am not certain.

24 Q. Who else from the park staff was involved

25 in that?

0*0*0*

101

1 A. Durand Jones.

2 Q. During that discussion --

3 A. I believe Mike Soukup was also involved.

4 Q. As a result of that discussion did you

5 obtain an increasing level of familiarity with the

6 issues in the federal litigation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review

9 portions of the pleadings or documents in addition to

10 the settlement agreement?

11 A. Some were discussed.

12 Q. This was in March of 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall whether you had any

15 awareness at that time of the proceeding that we are

16 here on today, which is the administrative challenge

17 to the Water Management District's SWIM plan?

18 A. No.

19 Q. No, you don't recall, or no, you didn't

20 have any --

21 A. No, I didn't have any awareness.

22 Q. During that three-day period in late March

23 did you have occasion at that time to review the SWIM

24 plan?

25 A. Not as a document.

0*0*0*

102

1 Q. Have you at some point had an occasion to

2 review the SWIM plan? When I say the SWIM plan, I am

3 talking about the March 1992 version of the South

4 Florida Water Management District's SWIM plan for the

5 Everglades.

6 A. My office received a copy of the final

7 document. I skimmed through it and forwarded it to

8 my staff.

9 Q. Who did you forward it to on your staff?

10 A. My Research Center staff.

11 Q. Dr. Soukup?

12 A. And his staff.

13 Q. How long did you take to skim through it?

14 A. Only a matter of five or ten minutes.

15 Q. What was the purpose of that, just to get

16 a general feeling as to what the document looked like

17 and the way it generally handled certain issues?

18 A. I wanted to get a sense of the scope of

19 content and the depth of treatment in a very cursory

20 fashion.

21 Q. What was your impression of it at that

22 time?

23 A. It's voluminous.

24 Q. Other than it is voluminous, did you form

25 some impression then of the depth of treatment of the

0*0*0*

103

1 issues in the SWIM plan?

2 A. That by actual treatment and by reference

3 it had dealt extensively with the issues it was

4 addressing.

5 Q. I take it that in the five or ten minutes,

6 whatever it was that you took to skim through it, you

7 did not or would not have had the opportunity to

8 critically analyze the documents or its conclusions

9 or its underlying bases or anything like that. Would

10 that be an accurate statement?

11 A. It was certainly not my intent to do so.

12 Q. Did you focus in at all during your look

13 at the SWIM plan on the Everglades National Park

14 sections of the plan?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Since that time have you had occasion to

17 go back to the SWIM plan and look at it more

18 carefully?

19 A. Do you mean, have I personally gone back

20 and waded through the document? No.

21 Q. Have you gone back and skimmed it again?

22 Have you looked at it? Have you opened the SWIM plan

23 other than that one five or ten minute skim you gave

24 it when it first came in?

25 A. No.

0*0*0*

104

1 Q. Is there a reason for that?

2 A. Several.

3 Q. Can you tell me what those are?

4 A. First, I don't presume to have the time

5 nor the expertise to wade through a document that

6 voluminous and complicated.

7 I do as I would normally do, I referred it

8 to my knowledgeable staff.

9 Secondly, in the seven months that I have

10 been here during three I have been somewhat occupied.

11 Q. With Hurricane Andrew?

12 A. And the results.

13 Q. What understanding, if any, do you have of

14 the purpose of the SWIM plan where it fits into the

15 management, preservation of the Everglades?

16 A. My understanding is that the SWIM plan is

17 a document produced by the South Florida Water

18 Management District to frame the need for and the

19 method of implementing a Water Management program for

20 an area within the Water Management District, and in

21 the case of this particular SWIM plan, significant

22 components were effectively addressing correction of

23 water quality problems emanating from the Everglades

24 Agricultural Area.

25 Q. What is your understanding of the

0*0*0*

105

1 connection if any between the federal lawsuit

2 settlement agreement which you previously reviewed

3 and the components of the SWIM plan?

4 A. The settlement agreement -- in accepting

5 the settlement agreement the South Florida Water

6 Management District accepted a positive

7 responsibility to correct specific water quality

8 problems and the SWIM plan is the normal process for

9 developing and implementing actions that would

10 implement such responsibilities.

11 Q. So then am I correct is it your

12 understanding that a portion at least of the

13 substance of the SWIM plan is dictated by the terms

14 of the settlement agreement?

15 A. No.

16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. That is

17 not what he said. That is your client's position,

18 Mr. Gaines. We understand that.

19 MR. GAINES: No, it is my question.

20 BY MR. GAINES:

21 Q. Let me ask that question. Do you have an

22 understanding one way or the other as to whether

23 portions of the SWIM plan, substance of certain

24 portions of the SWIM plan are dictated by the

25 contents of the settlement agreement?

0*0*0*

106

1 MS. PONZOLI: Would you read the question

2 back again, please.

3 (The question referred to was

4 thereupon read by the reporter

5 as above recorded)

6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

7 A. It is my understanding that the SWIM plan

8 of the South Florida Water Management District as

9 adopted acts to fulfill responsibilities that they

10 have agreed to.

11 Q. In the settlement agreement?

12 A. As a part of the settlement agreement. I

13 would not characterize it as dictating anything.

14 Q. Why not?

15 A. My understanding is that the parties to

16 the settlement agreement are willing parties and that

17 they have each accepted the responsibilities

18 associated with that agreement and will pursue

19 fulfilling those responsibilities as they each see

20 fit.

21 Q. When I use the word dictated, I think

22 maybe you took it differently than I intended.

23 A. I took it the way I understood it.

24 Q. I wasn't talking about a party to that

25 litigation dictating what would be in the SWIM plan

0*0*0*

107

1 but the contents of the settlement agreement itself

2 determining, whether the agreement was entered into

3 freely by these parties or however it occurred, the

4 settlement agreement was entered into and my question

5 was did the contents of that settlement agreement,

6 what was agreed to by those parties, determine,

7 that's how I meant the word dictate, the contents of

8 the SWIM plan.

9 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to continue my

10 objection to form. I don't believe there is any real

11 distinction, but I understand you have made one, Mr.

12 Gaines. I understand what you said. I still object

13 to the form.

14 A. I think that the settlement agreement, in

15 joining into the settlement agreement the South

16 Florida Water Management District accepted a number

17 of positive responsibilities and they -- the SWIM

18 plan is a creature of their own procedure and process

19 and it is entirely up to the South Florida Water

20 Management District how it fulfills those

21 responsibilities.

22 Q. At the time you got the settlement

23 agreement to review, after you had accepted the

24 position, how much time did you spend going over the

25 settlement agreement?

0*0*0*

108

1 A. I read it and discussed it at some length

2 during the briefings in late March when I came down

3 to see the area.

4 Q. Let's approach it just a slightly

5 different way and maybe we can get out of this

6 particular quagmire.

7 Is it your understanding that the SWIM

8 planning process is the vehicle that the Water

9 Management District has chosen to fulfill the

10 obligations it assumed in connection with the

11 settlement agreement?

12 A. I think it is part of the process that

13 they have chosen.

14 Q. What other parts of the process are there

15 as far as your understanding goes?

16 A. I'm not comprehensively familiar with all

17 of the South Florida Water Management District's

18 procedures.

19 Q. Did you have something specific in mind

20 when you said it was part of the process? I mean,

21 without requiring you to be exhaustive with this

22 answer, are there other activities that the District

23 is undertaking outside the SWIM planning process to

24 your knowledge or understanding in order to fulfill

25 its settlement obligations?

0*0*0*

109

1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

2 A. I presume that the SWIM plan is nothing

3 more than that. It is a plan. In that regard it is

4 a road map for action.

5 Q. In other words, in order to fulfill its

6 obligations more than just a plan is required by the

7 District, you need to have action take place pursuant

8 to that plan?

9 A. I think the settlement agreement speaks

10 for itself.

11 Q. Can you recall the date, and I might have

12 just asked this a minute ago, but the date on which

13 you accepted the position of superintendent?

14 A. Sometime around the 20th of February.

15 Q. And then you physically started at the

16 park on April 20?

17 A. Yes. Saturday, the 22nd of February is the

18 date I accepted the position.

19 Q. During your three days down here in late

20 March, other than your briefings with Ms. Ponzoli on

21 the litigation, what other types of briefings or

22 exposure to Everglades issues did you have?

23 A. Before coming down in April?

24 Q. Yes, during that three days in March that

25 we spoke about.

0*0*0*

110

1 A. I had a wide variety of discussions and

2 orientations to the resource and general issues

3 associated with it, both resource related and

4 operation.

5 Q. You met with a lot of people during that

6 three days?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you tour the park?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was that by helicopter, airboat or how did

11 you do that?

12 A. Helicopter and vehicle.

13 Q. Did there come a point in time prior to

14 the April 20 starting date where you had obtained

15 enough information to reach an independent conclusion

16 concerning whether the settlement agreement that you

17 had been provided was an effective means to address

18 the problems facing the park?

19 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

20 A. I have not reached an independent

21 conclusion that it is not.

22 Q. Have you reached any independent

23 conclusion one way or the other on that issue?

24 A. My judgments represent the National Park

25 Service on behalf of Everglades National Park. I

0*0*0*

111

1 wouldn't characterize them as independent. And I am

2 still learning a great deal about all the issues

3 associated with the park.

4 Q. Let me see if I understand that.

5 MR. GAINES: Off the record.

6 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

7 after which the following proceedings

8 were had)

9 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

10 Read back the last question and answer,

11 please.

12 (The portion referred to was

13 thereupon read by the reporter

14 as above recorded)

15 BY MR. GAINES:

16 Q. In your previous answer you stated that

17 your judgments represent the National Park Service on

18 behalf of Everglades National Park. And I believe

19 you also stated you hadn't reached an independent

20 conclusion that the settlement agreement is not an

21 effective means to address the problems facing the

22 park.

23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. I

24 think that is a somewhat distorted characterization

25 of what Superintendent Ring said.

0*0*0*

112

1 MR. GAINES: I hadn't even finished the

2 question yet.

3 MS. PONZOLI: I apologize.

4 MR. GAINES: Just so I am clear, Mr. Court

5 Reporter, could you read back the prior question and

6 answer to the one that you just read us.

7 (The portion referred to was

8 thereupon read by the reporter

9 as above recorded)

10 BY MR. GAINES:

11 Q. When you say your judgments represent the

12 National Park Service and you wouldn't characterize

13 them as independent, can you explain to me what you

14 mean by that?

15 A. I have a responsibility in my position to

16 evaluate issues, set management direction and

17 objectives and to advocate and support or oppose

18 certain solutions or policies. I typically don't

19 reach conclusions independently, I reach them with

20 the help, support of my staff who provide me a

21 significant amount of data, insight and discussion

22 related to any key issue or decision I am focusing

23 on.

24 I feel that when I have reached a

25 judgment, it is not so much an independent judgment

0*0*0*

113

1 but it is a judgment that brings together all the

2 issues, concerns and recommendations that my staff

3 has provided and oftentimes public input and the

4 assessment of it and the input and discussion

5 resulting from contacts and communications with a

6 wide variety of agencies and organizations.

7 Q. Maybe the problem here is my use of the

8 phrase independent conclusion to describe your

9 statements concerning the settlement agreement.

10 Based on what you just testified to I take

11 it that in your position as the superintendent you

12 are not called upon or you do not see your role as

13 requiring that you reach an independent conclusion on

14 an issue such as this. Is that correct?

15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

16 A. I think you are correct in that we may

17 have a different view and interpretation of the term

18 independent.

19 Q. For example, when we talked about your

20 review of the SWIM plan that was sent to you, you

21 stated that you skimmed it for five or ten minutes

22 and then sent it on to the appropriate person on your

23 staff who was knowledgeable in the area and who would

24 be the person to really read it and take a detailed

25 look at it. Is that correct?

0*0*0*

114

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So that you would rely on that person or

3 other people on your staff to do the analytical

4 analysis, to take the hard look at something like the

5 SWIM plan and make a determination as to whether the

6 staff agreed with it or had problems with it or had

7 comments to offer on it, you wouldn't get into that

8 level of scientific detail, is that correct?

9 A. Typically, no.

10 Q. So that now with regard to this issue we

11 are talking about on the settlement agreement and

12 whether or not you have concluded independently as I

13 put it that it is an effective means to address the

14 problems facing the park --

15 MS. PONZOLI: Counsel, I just want to make

16 something clear. I have objected to your fundamental

17 underlying principle here and will continue and would

18 seek a continuing objection that there is any

19 implication that the settlement agreement was ever

20 intended to address all the colossal problems facing

21 Everglades National Park.

22 And your whole line of questioning is

23 built on that foundation. And having such a

24 fundamental objection to that premise, I will

25 continue to object for the rest of the day as you

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1 continue this line of questioning, if you are going

2 to assume that that settlement agreement was intended

3 to address all problems facing the park.

4 So maybe that is the source of our gordian

5 knot here.

6 MR. GAINES: I don't think that my premise

7 is as sweeping as you stated it to be. I am happy to

8 give you a continuing objection.

9 I don't think I ever put in the question

10 that this was the means to address all, any and all

11 problems facing the park.

12 MS. PONZOLI: Your basic, the problems

13 facing the park, you have not qualified it in any

14 way, the problems facing the park. I mean, I don't

15 know how to interpret it as his attorney any other

16 way.

17 If I have made a mistake then I would be

18 happy to withdraw the objections. But that is a

19 broad statement.

20 MR. GAINES: I think our real problem here

21 is more centered on whether or not the superintendent

22 feels that it is his position, his duty to reach an

23 independent conclusion on issues like this or whether

24 he necessarily relies upon input from his staff that

25 take a more detailed look at the underlying issues

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1 and science and I wanted to get into the word

2 judgment that he used in his previous answer. That

3 is where I am going with this.

4 MS. PONZOLI: You certainly are free to

5 pursue any line of questioning that you want but I

6 don't know that I accept your characterization of how

7 he reaches decisions or that you have adequately

8 pursued how he makes judgments on behalf of the park.

9 So I am not conceding that you are in fact

10 reflecting the process by which he makes his

11 decisions.

12 MR. GAINES: Hopefully as we will continue

13 we will adequately reflect that process.

14 MS. PONZOLI: We will try, I am sure.

15 BY MR. GAINES:

16 Q. Would it be more accurate, sir, to state

17 that, to answer that your statements represent the

18 National Park Service on behalf of Everglades

19 National Park rather than to say that your judgments

20 do on issues such as this?

21 A. My statements, letters that I sign, both

22 from an oral and written communication, can represent

23 the position of the National Park Service on behalf

24 of Everglades National Park, depending upon what they

25 contain and what they purport to convey.

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1 Q. Would there be occasions where as

2 superintendent you are in the position of making a

3 statement or signing a letter that contains positions

4 that are the positions of the Park Service on behalf

5 of the park that you may not personally have reached

6 that conclusion through any intellectual process?

7 MS. PONZOLI: I will object to form.

8 A. There are occasions when I would tell you

9 what the statutory requirements are with regard to a

10 particular issue and they are clear. I wouldn't

11 purport to tell you that those were in place as a

12 result of my judgment or actions.

13 I operate within the constraints of

14 statutes and federal regulations and federal policy.

15 Q. Let me give you an example of what I am

16 asking about.

17 There was a board meeting of the Water

18 Management District, South Florida Water Management

19 District on May 14, 1992 at which you spoke and the

20 issue at that time was the challenge, the

21 administrative challenge to this, to the SWIM plan

22 and how that was going to be processed by the

23 governing board.

24 MS. PONZOLI: Counsel, may he see a copy

25 of the statement?

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1 MR. GAINES: It is just one sentence I

2 want to read and I will show to it him if he wants to

3 see it.

4 Q. But at that point as part of your

5 presentation to the board you stated, "The settlement

6 agreement represents a joining together of the state,

7 the Water Management District and the entire federal

8 community to correct these problems with a solution

9 that has every chance of success if it is done in

10 time."

11 Do you recall that meeting and making that

12 statement to the board?

13 A. I recall the meeting, I recall speaking to

14 the board and I generally recall my comments.

15 Q. Do you recall making this statement that

16 the settlement agreement has a solution that has

17 every chance of success if it is done in time?

18 A. I remember words to that effect.

19 Q. Did that statement to that effect, was

20 that your own independent conclusion regarding the

21 settlement agreement or was that the position of the

22 Park Service or the Everglades National Park as you

23 understood it at the time based on your exposure to

24 briefings from staff and other sources?

25 A. I believe that at that meeting I was

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1 standing in front of the board in the same uniform

2 you see me here today, and I think the implications

3 of the statements I had made and on whose behalf they

4 were made and what they represented are pretty

5 obvious.

6 Q. They may be pretty obvious but I am a

7 little slow in some of this stuff.

8 Just so we are clear, by that answer you

9 mean that you are in your --

10 A. I spoke in an official capacity on behalf

11 of Everglades National Park.

12 Q. In speaking in such a capacity, it is not

13 necessary in your mind that you had independently

14 looked at the settlement agreement, looked at the

15 problems it was trying to address and come to a

16 scientific conclusion that it was a solution that had

17 every chance of success if it was done in time, is

18 that correct?

19 MS. PONZOLI: I really object to this

20 whole line of questioning, somehow trying to

21 discredit the statements --

22 MR. GAINES: Well --

23 MS. PONZOLI: Let me finish.

24 (Continuing) that Superintendent Ring

25 makes as though they were made in a parroting fashion

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1 on behalf of the park or the Park Service or any

2 other federal entity that might have briefed him. I

3 think there is a clear implication here of, he's just

4 parroting what someone else told him.

5 I think that is wrong. You have gone on

6 at great length about independent judgments and the

7 capacity in which he speaks.

8 I think, you know, I am not going to stop

9 you, Mr. Gaines, but it reaches harassment at some

10 point.

11 MR. GAINES: Let me just assure you I am

12 not trying to harass the superintendent here. And

13 you are the one who is putting a pejorative spin on

14 these questions. That is not my intention.

15 That last question could be the last

16 question in this area if I could get an answer to it.

17 MS. PONZOLI: You have gotten many

18 answers. You have asked the same question probably

19 20 times and every time you have gotten an answer. I

20 haven't instructed this man not to answer once.

21 MR. GAINES: Could you read back the last

22 question, please. And maybe we could move on.

23 (The question referred to was

24 thereupon read by the reporter

25 as above recorded)

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1 MS. PONZOLI: That is the pending

2 question, Superintendent Ring.

3 (Pause)

4 MS. PONZOLI: My objections will be on the

5 record in between.

6 You are not compelled to answer a question

7 that you can't answer. There is a long period going

8 on here where you are not answering. I don't want to

9 imply that somehow you have to give him an answer.

10 A. I mean, that's -- the position I gave and

11 comments that I made at that meeting were the

12 position of the National Park Service on behalf of

13 the Everglades National Park at that juncture related

14 to that issue. That's about as good as I can give

15 you.

16 BY MR. GAINES:

17 Q. I am certainly not the one trying to

18 impart some negative spin to this.

19 I think you can understand from where I am

20 sitting that if your answer is that you

21 independently, intellectually came to this conclusion

22 rather than in the role of superintendent expressing

23 the position of the National Park Service, it opens

24 up a whole other line of inquiry that we need to go

25 into.

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1 MR. GAINES: Ms. Ponzoli, if you think

2 there is some negative to this, that is fine, but

3 that's not my intention.

4 Q. Is there any problem in your experience as

5 acting as a superintendent for a park in expressing

6 an opinion such as this one based upon staff

7 briefings or other information that you obtained that

8 is short of actually intellectually processing the

9 information and coming to this conclusion

10 independently yourself? Is there any problem with

11 that? Is that common? Is that what was done here?

12 MS. PONZOLI: I have my continuing

13 objection to this. It is as though your question

14 implies, and I am sorry if you think I am reading

15 more into it than you intend, but it is as though

16 your question implies either superintendents stand up

17 and are sort of mouthpieces for the National Park

18 Service or they are required to do the function of

19 virtually everyone on their staff, process it like

20 some master computer and then sit and be able to

21 answer as a hydrologist, as a botanist, as a water

22 quality expert person, based upon all that incredible

23 technical information that would be required to make

24 what I at least as an attorney interpret your

25 independent judgment to be. And that's the problem I

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1 am having with this whole line of inquiry.

2 MR. GAINES: The superintendent is not the

3 only profession where you get referred to as a

4 mouthpiece once in a while.

5 MS. PONZOLI: But the rest of us

6 mouthpieces don't normally have our depositions

7 taken, Mr. Gaines.

8 MR. GAINES: That also remains to be seen,

9 I guess.

10 MS. PONZOLI: Yes, it does, but what goes

11 around comes around, doesn't it?

12 MR. GAINES: Yes, absolutely.

13 BY MR. GAINES:

14 Q. Superintendent Ring, I don't intend to

15 make this a threatening line of questioning. I don't

16 think that you are taking it that way.

17 A. No.

18 Q. I am just trying to get this final answer

19 to this final question. I think it is evident enough

20 but if we could just get that one question answered

21 we can move on to something else

22 MS. PONZOLI: And if we don't we will just

23 go on for hours, is that right? We are here, we have

24 nowhere else to go.

25 A. Insofar as, though, comments before the

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1 board on that issue, I was completely and

2 professionally comfortable and confident making those

3 comments, and they were entirely within my purview

4 and discretion as the superintendent of Everglades

5 National Park to make or I would not have made them.

6 Q. Is it accurate to state that it would be

7 entirely within the purview of a superintendent of

8 Everglades National Park to make a comment such as

9 this based upon input from staff or other sources as

10 opposed to having independently reached this

11 conclusion?

12 A. I'd offer the same answer I gave to the

13 last question.

14 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Gaines, I am sorry, this

15 is harassment. If you want something special and you

16 are not getting it, you are certainly entitled to try

17 for a while but after a while you have to let go. I

18 really think you are coming to that point.

19 MR. GAINES: I appreciate that, but I

20 don't think it is that difficult of an area.

21 MS. PONZOLI: He gave you the answer. You

22 don't like the answer but you are not entitled to an

23 answer you like, you are entitled to an answer.

24 MR. GAINES: I like the answer fine. I

25 love the answer that we have got.

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1 MS. PONZOLI: Then why don't we let it go.

2 MR. GAINES: Because we have another

3 question.

4 MS. PONZOLI: If another question is the

5 same one as the last one I have a problem with it,

6 but let's see if it is a different question.

7 BY MR. GAINES:

8 Q. I guess the problem here is I am trying to

9 understand the position of the superintendent. I

10 understand you are at the apex of a very large

11 organization with many responsibilities and a lot of

12 territory and issues that you are trying to deal with

13 and manage and express opinions in public about.

14 Obviously you have to rely on your staff to give you

15 input into the opinions that you express in public.

16 Is that much true? Would you agree with that, at

17 least, that you have to rely on your staff --

18 A. I do rely on my staff extensively.

19 Q. And this particular statement, were you

20 relying on your staff in making that statement?

21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. You

22 have asked this question again and again and he has

23 answered it again and again, the extent to which he

24 relied on his staff and the extent to which he relied

25 upon his position as a spokesman for National Park

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1 Service and to the extent to which he was comfortable

2 with it. Now are we going to get down to

3 quantitative percentages of which one it was, is that

4 where we are headed?

5 MR. GAINES: I am willing to.

6 MS. PONZOLI: I am sure you are, we have

7 gone on with this for quite sometime.

8 Why don't you read back the question

9 again.

10 MR. GAINES: Let's go with another

11 question, same basic question.

12 BY MR. GAINES:

13 Q. What were you relying on in making that

14 statement? What information were you relying on when

15 you said that the settlement agreement is a solution

16 that has every chance of success if it is done in

17 time?

18 A. My own assessment of a variety of

19 information and counsel that I had received from a

20 variety of sources.

21 Q. Can you tell me what those sources were?

22 A. Certainly staff input, a general

23 understanding of the mission and purposes of the

24 National Park Service, my role and responsibilities

25 as a representative of the agency, general background

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1 understanding of the issues involved, discussions

2 with other affected federal agencies and with

3 counsel, my own reading and evaluation of various

4 documents that I had been exposed to.

5 Q. Do you know which documents those were,

6 can you recall?

7 A. I cannot give you a list. I am telling

8 you that I drew on the totality of experience I had

9 with the issue.

10 Q. Have you acquainted yourself in your time

11 dealing with these issues with the STA concept?

12 A. I am aware of the STA concept.

13 Q. Can you tell me generally what the STAs

14 are and how they are intended to work?

15 A. That is an acronym for stormwater

16 treatment areas. The areas are intended to function

17 in a manner to hold and remove phosphorus from water

18 coming out of the Everglades Agricultural Area prior

19 to its being delivered into the conservation portions

20 of the remaining Everglades.

21 Q. Are the STAs to your knowledge the primary

22 mechanism called for in the settlement agreement and

23 in the SWIM plan to meet the water quality standards

24 that had been determined by those two documents?

25 A. They are a mechanism.

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1 Q. Are they the primary mechanism, to your

2 knowledge?

3 A. They are one of several.

4 Q. What are the others?

5 A. A requirement for best management

6 practices on the agricultural lands within the EAA.

7 Q. Any others?

8 A. Those are the two principal.

9 Q. Are you aware of any scientific debate

10 that is ongoing about the STA concept and whether it

11 will work or how well it will work?

12 A. I am aware that there has been some.

13 Q. Have you followed that in any detail?

14 A. I have asked my staff to keep me apprised

15 of those discussions as they proceed. And they have

16 done so.

17 Q. What is your current understanding of

18 where that debate stands or what the current

19 viability of the STA concept is?

20 A. That they are entirely as viable as they

21 were when the settlement agreement was signed.

22 Q. I guess that brings the question, how

23 viable is that?

24 A. They are entirely viable according to the

25 information we know of and our assessment of it.

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1 Q. When you say entirely viable, by that you

2 mean that the STAs in the size called for in the SWIM

3 plan configuration will achieve the nutrient goals

4 that are set forth in there?

5 A. Based on the scientific evidence that we

6 have available to us and as the result of the

7 discussions that have gone on in the critiques that

8 we have heard related to them we still believe that

9 the they are going to accomplish what they were

10 designed to accomplish.

11 Q. Can you specify what the scientific

12 evidence is that you are referring to?

13 A. I cannot give you chapter and verse. I

14 can give you a general sense of it.

15 Q. Can you give me that?

16 A. General literature on the use of these

17 kinds of systems for filtering nutrients.

18 Q. Do you know any author?

19 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Gaines, I have to tell

20 you --

21 A. No.

22 MS. PONZOLI: This is pretty silly.

23 A. I cannot quote you an author.

24 MS. PONZOLI: We have not offered him as

25 an expert on STA design nor was that anywhere in his

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1 designation.

2 Q. Have you had occasion to review any of the

3 work being done by consultants of the Water

4 Management District recently with regard to the

5 ongoing STA design issues?

6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. It is

7 pretty vague.

8 A. Do you mean, have I given it a scientific

9 and technical review?

10 Q. Let's ask that question. Have you given

11 it and scientific and technical review?

12 A. I do rely on my scientific staff for that.

13 Q. Have you been made aware either through

14 your own reading or by the staff, your staff, of a

15 report by Nolte & Associates, a group called Nolte &

16 Assoicates doing work on behalf of the Water

17 Management District on this issue?

18 A. I am aware that a draft was submitted from

19 Nolte & Associates.

20 Q. Did you have occasion to read that?

21 A. I was briefed on it.

22 Q. What were you told about that?

23 A. I was told that it disputed the

24 calculations and the conclusions that we had felt,

25 the National Park Service had felt, were supportable

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1 in conjunction with the effectiveness of the

2 stormwater treatment areas.

3 I was also briefed that there were

4 potentially a number of flaws in the draft.

5 Q. Who provided you with that briefing?

6 A. My scientific staff.

7 Q. Dr. Soukup?

8 A. Primarily.

9 Q. Anyone else that you can recall?

10 A. Mr. Soukup is primarily responsible for

11 briefing me on the issues of the staff there.

12 Q. Is it doctor or mister?

13 A. Doctor.

14 MS. PONZOLI: It is doctor now.

15 Q. As the superintendent of the park does it

16 trouble you that there are these possible problems

17 with the STA concept identified by Nolte &

18 Associates?

19 A. It doesn't trouble me that there are

20 criticisms and questions that come up associated with

21 any scientific body of information associated with a

22 project we are involved in.

23 Q. Is it important to you as the

24 superintendent that those criticisms and questions be

25 resolved prior to implementing a program like that?

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1 A. It would be my desire to see them

2 addressed professionally and objectively.

3 Q. I think you stated earlier when we started

4 down that road on the independent conclusion about

5 the settlement agreement being effective or not that

6 you hadn't reached a conclusion that it was not an

7 effective means to address the problems it was

8 seeking to address, not all the problems of the

9 Everglades system.

10 If --

11 MS. PONZOLI: Which ones are we talking

12 about then? Have we narrowed it some?

13 MR. GAINES: It is not my settlement

14 agreement.

15 MS. PONZOLI: It is not my question.

16 BY MR. GAINES:

17 Q. If in the course of staff briefing,

18 evaluating new information that comes to your

19 attention you do reach an independent conclusion that

20 the settlement agreement does not effectively deal

21 with the water quality issues for Everglades National

22 Park, as the superintendent what would your duty be

23 in that instance with regard to that situation?

24 A. In coming into a position there are always

25 a number of issues and actions that are well

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1 underway. It is my duty to become briefed on those

2 issues and those actions to the point where I can

3 ascertain whether or not I have questions or concerns

4 that need to be addressed in order to continue to

5 provide direction and pursue those actions.

6 In the case of the settlement agreement

7 and all the briefing and reviews that I have had to

8 date, I have found nothing that causes me any

9 significant concern or question. If I had such

10 questions or concerns of either a minor or

11 fundamental nature, I would raise them with my staff

12 and with cooperating agencies and ask that they be

13 addressed. I would attempt to evaluate a response to

14 those questions and concerns and either ask further

15 questions or be satisfied.

16 If as a result of asking a series of

17 questions related to a decision, course of action, a

18 body of information, I felt that the answers were

19 either inadequate or insufficient, I would feel an

20 obligation to set in motion a course of action that

21 would obtain the necessary information or act

22 differently upon it if there was such a need.

23 Q. I believe you stated earlier also that you

24 are still learning, still in the learning process

25 about these issues and the Everglades, is that

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1 correct?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. Let me ask you, we talked a little bit

4 about the things you did before you got here to

5 acquaint yourself with the Everglades and the park

6 and some of the issues.

7 Once you arrived did you implement some

8 type of formal mechanism or procedure to educate

9 yourself on these issues and commence your learning?

10 How have you gone about doing that?

11 A. I asked my staff to develop a series of --

12 an agenda, a series of agenda to walk me through

13 their various programs in a logical fashion.

14 I also asked the staff in my immediate

15 office to identify for me those issues which I would

16 have to deal with immediately and those aspects of

17 those issues that I would have to meet with others or

18 take some action on immediately so that I could begin

19 to learn enough about them to be knowledgeable in

20 acting on them.

21 MR. GAINES: Did you need to take a break?

22 MS. PONZOLI: I would like to but I can

23 wait. Are you at a logical point to break?

24 MR. GAINES: I don't know if I have any

25 logical points left.

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135

1 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

2 after which the following proceedings

3 were had)

4 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

5 BY MR. GAINES:

6 Q. We were talking about the staff briefings

7 and how you became acquainted or started acquainting

8 yourself with the various bodies of information as

9 necessary for you to digest I guess in your position.

10 Has this series of agenda walk-through

11 programs been completed at this point?

12 A. Not at all.

13 Q. Can you tell me where it stands, how far

14 into it are you? I understand the hurricane probably

15 disrupted that process quite a bit.

16 A. I was here not quite four months trying to

17 deal with a series of immediate issues and decisions

18 ranging from personnel and operating kinds of issues

19 to resource and related issues and legislative

20 issues. So I had many, many topics and concerns that

21 were on my agenda as a result of others, others'

22 schedules. And I had begun comprehensive briefings

23 with different elements of my operation and hadn't in

24 four months' time, even given all the time in the

25 world, it is not possible to get on top of everything

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1 in a park that size.

2 When the hurricane came along, certainly

3 for two and a half months it has been a significant

4 diversion from a number of those topics. So I

5 consider myself to be still very early on in the

6 learning curve relating to a lot of --

7 Q. Let me ask you, have you had a specific

8 briefing on the SWIM plan challenge that we are

9 involved in here?

10 A. I have had a number of discussions about

11 it with counsel and other agency representatives

12 jointly.

13 Q. What is it that you understand your role

14 to be in this administrative process that we are

15 involved in here?

16 A. I am part of a team that is responsible

17 for formulating, advocating and supporting the United

18 States position in pursuit of implementing the

19 settlement agreement and resolving the water quality

20 issues originating from the EAA.

21 Q. What do you understand to be the impacts

22 to Everglades National Park of water quality issues

23 originating from the EAA?

24 A. Elevated levels of nutrients, particularly

25 phosphorus, and the resultant changes that is

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1 precipitating in biotic communities.

2 Q. Do you understand that such elevated

3 levels of nutrients have been documented within the

4 park?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you familiar with the specifics of

7 that?

8 A. Somewhat.

9 Q. For example, do you know where within the

10 park these elevations have been documented?

11 A. I know that the effects attributable to

12 elevated nutrient levels have been documented at and

13 adjacent to Water Management delivery structures on

14 the upstream boundaries of the park.

15 Q. The S-12 structures?

16 A. Beats me. I haven't figured out the

17 numbers yet.

18 (Pause)

19 Q. Is that the Water Management District map

20 there? I take it that is your own personal copy of

21 that?

22 A. It is mine.

23 Q. You have taken out your own copy of the

24 South Florida Water Management District system map

25 dated September 1985.

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1 (Pause)

2 Q. I have my own copy of the same map.

3 Can you indicate on the map there for me

4 where you are talking about that there have been the

5 effects attributable to nutrient elevations

6 documented in the park?

7 A. Basically all along the Tamiami Trail

8 including areas south of the Tamiami Trail and the

9 east Everglades addition. I have seen several

10 structures from the air personally and my

11 understanding from staff briefings is that documented

12 changes in biological communities have been recorded

13 in those areas due to elevated nutrient levels.

14 Q. When you say you have seen structures from

15 the air personally, are you indicating that you saw

16 personally from the air effects attributable to

17 nutrient elevations?

18 A. I have seen effects in changes in plant

19 communities that I understand from my staff are

20 attributable to those elevated nutrient levels.

21 Q. For example, what type of vegetative

22 changes are you talking about?

23 A. Basically cattail communities replacing

24 sawgrass communities in the vicinity downstream of

25 the delivery structures into the park.

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1 Q. Do you have any knowledge or opinion as to

2 whether that type of change can be caused by changed

3 hydroperiod as opposed to nutrient elevations?

4 A. My understanding is that they are

5 basically driven by nutrient, increased nutrient

6 levels.

7 Q. Do you have an understanding of the impact

8 of hydroperiod on that type of change if any?

9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

10 A. I have an understanding that water issues

11 have significant interrelationships with each other.

12 Q. That being said, with regard to the

13 replacement of sawgrass by cattails, do you have any

14 knowledge that that can be a result of hydroperiod

15 changes as opposed to nutrient elevation?

16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. It is

17 asked and answered. I think it is the same question

18 you asked before. If I am wrong --

19 MR. GAINES: It is very similar but I

20 think he didn't really answer it.

21 MS. PONZOLI: We are going to start

22 another two hour hydroperiod versus water quality?

23 You know we see these things differently.

24 If you have a different answer you are

25 certainly are free but if at this time you have the

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1 same answer as before, then --

2 BY MR. GAINES:

3 Q. I am not trying to be tricky. It is just

4 I asked you the question and you said that water

5 issues are interrelated so I am just trying to get a

6 little more specific on this particular vegetative

7 change you are discussing.

8 Do you have an understanding as to whether

9 hydroperiod plays any role at all in that?

10 MS. PONZOLI: I think that that is a

11 different question.

12 A. My understanding is that the change in the

13 type of communities is nutrient related. The rate of

14 change certainly has a connection to the rate of

15 water delivery.

16 Q. In terms of problems facing Everglades

17 National Park as we sit here today, what do you feel

18 is a greater problem, if you can answer it in this

19 way, water quality or water quantity?

20 A. I think they are separate and critical

21 aspects of the water issue with regards to the

22 Everglades. They are simply two different components

23 of a larger issue.

24 Q. So you treat them as separate issues,

25 quantity and quality?

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141

1 A. They are two different components of the

2 overall water issue.

3 Q. Are you able to say that one is a more

4 immediate problem than the other in terms of danger

5 to the park or damage to the park?

6 A. No.

7 Q. One of the topics that you have been

8 listed as an expert with regard to, as I understand

9 it, is identification of specific external threats to

10 Everglades National Park's resources. Is that

11 correct?

12 A. That's what I understand.

13 Q. That being said, can you identify for me

14 what are the external threats as you see them to

15 Everglades National Park's resources?

16 A. Fundamentally the effects of human-caused

17 alteration in the natural processes that sustain --

18 that are necessary to sustain the Everglades

19 ecosystem. Fundamental to that is water,

20 manipulation of the quality, quantity, timing and

21 distribution of water flows through the Everglades,

22 probably one of the most significant man-caused

23 alterations.

24 The effect of the introduction of exotic

25 species into the Everglades which compete with and

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1 replace native biological communities is another

2 significant alteration that is of major concern to

3 the sustaining of natural processes in the park.

4 Q. Are there any other ones that you can

5 think of?

6 A. I would say there are a variety, but those

7 two broad areas really top the priority list.

8 Q. When you speak of water quality concerns,

9 do you include within that heading in addition to

10 nutrients which we have talked about a little bit

11 already, things such as pesticides, mercury and other

12 pollutants?

13 A. I would include in it anything that

14 changes the ambient water characteristics of the

15 natural and functioning Everglades.

16 Q. What about just development, people in

17 general, continued population growth in the South

18 Florida area, is that a threat as you see it to the

19 park?

20 A. The effects of that growth can cause

21 significant problems, but to call the development

22 itself a threat, I think is reaching a bit.

23 Q. What effects of that growth are you

24 talking about that can cause significant problems?

25 A. I think that the manipulation of the water

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1 system, the introduction of exotic species, water

2 quality issues related to runoff --

3 Q. Are you talking about urban runoff,

4 agricultural, industrial or all of those?

5 A. It is all related to a developed human

6 use.

7 I think those all have had significant

8 effects on the Everglades.

9 Q. What about airboats in Everglades National

10 Park, are they permitted?

11 A. They are not permitted within the portions

12 of the park, within the portions of the park

13 predating the east Everglades addition. Some

14 provision is made that in the east Everglades

15 addition, as a result of analysis by the National

16 Park Service some airboat use may be permitted.

17 Q. Where is the east Everglades addition?

18 A. Here (indicating).

19 Q. That is the area sort of bordered by the

20 S-347 structure on the west and the L-31N on the east

21 and L-29 on the north, is that basically correct?

22 A. Basically correct.

23 Q. What is the status of acquiring that area

24 for the park?

25 A. I'd say it is approaching 50 percent

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1 acquired.

2 Q. What is the target date, if there is one,

3 for completing the acquisition?

4 A. We anticipate it will take a number of

5 years, I'd say five to seven years to complete. That

6 is entirely dependent on the rate at which

7 appropriations are made available for acquisition.

8 Q. Does the park staff itself have airboats

9 inside the park?

10 A. We do use some airboats for

11 administrative, some administrative and emergency

12 purposes.

13 Q. Do you know how many there are?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do they cause damage to the park, is that

16 why they are not allowed?

17 A. They can.

18 Q. What kind of damage can they cause?

19 A. They can create basically trails where

20 vegetation has been crushed and as a result

21 eliminated from a track over which an airboat rides

22 and that can be particularly quick in occurring when

23 airboats are used at moderate to low water levels.

24 Q. When you say crushed vegetation, are you

25 talking about sawgrass primarily?

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145

1 A. Primarily.

2 Q. What else? What other kind of vegetation?

3 A. For a variety of vegetation, native

4 vegetation occurring in the park.

5 Q. Do airboats have an effect on periphyton

6 communities?

7 A. I am sure they have an effect on, can have

8 an effect on any plant communities where they are

9 used depending upon how frequently they are used and

10 under what conditions they are used.

11 Q. When you observed the vegetative changes

12 south of the S-12 stuctures we were talking about,

13 how do you know that those nutrient, that nutrient

14 elevation that you described there emanated from the

15 EAA?

16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form because I

17 think it was asked and answered.

18 MR. GAINES: I don't think I asked him

19 that.

20 MS. PONZOLI: I think he answered it

21 buried in his other answers. If it wasn't in a

22 single question it was in several questions. But he

23 is welcome to answer again.

24 A. We know they are related to higher levels

25 of nutrients, we know that the plumbing system of the

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146

1 CNFS can and does often deliver water directly from

2 the Everglades Agricultural Area as well as into the

3 conservation areas and the Loxahatchee Refuge and we

4 have seen a consistency of change associated with

5 those delivery points.

6 Q. You are saying there are occasions when

7 water is delivered directly from the EAA into the

8 park, is that correct?

9 A. I am saying there are occasions when the

10 canal system down through the conservation area is

11 used to transport water quickly down to the southern

12 end of those areas as opposed to being introduced to

13 sheet flow across these conservation areas.

14 Q. Do you have any idea or knowledge as to

15 the length of time it takes water to travel from the

16 EAA down into the park when it flows down the canals

17 as you have just described?

18 A. No, I don't. And I think that can vary

19 dramatically based on conditions.

20 Q. Do you know the range of time?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. Do you know the pathway through this canal

23 system that water can take from the EAA to the park?

24 I have a map, I will turn yours back

25 toward you.

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147

1 A. It can take whatever combination of

2 pathways exist based on the canals, levee and pump

3 structure system.

4 Q. Do I understand you to be saying it

5 depends on how the system is operated and what pumps

6 are turned on and what gates are opened or shut to

7 determine what course the water takes?

8 A. That has a large effect on it, that's

9 true.

10 Q. Who do you understand to be operating this

11 plumbing system here that we are looking at?

12 A. The South Florida Water Management

13 District and the Corps of Engineers.

14 Q. Do you know who makes the decisions about

15 when water is, for example, discharged from the EAA

16 into a Water Conservation Area on one hand or down a

17 canal directly into the park on the other hand, do

18 you know who makes that kind of a decision?

19 A. I know that there are established

20 operating and emergency schedules that have been

21 worked out in discussions with the Corps and Water

22 Management District and other involved and affected

23 parties.

24 Q. And these sets of protocol determine how

25 the pumps are operated under given sets of

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148

1 circumstances?

2 A. They are intended to.

3 Q. Do you know how far it is from the EAA, I

4 guess the southern end of the EAA to the northern end

5 of Everglades National Park?

6 A. Not exactly.

7 Q. Could you estimate?

8 MS. PONZOLI: I don't think he has to

9 guess.

10 MR. GAINES: I didn't ask him to guess.

11 MS. PONZOLI: You told him not to

12 speculate in the beginning.

13 (Pause)

14 A. It looks like something just under 40

15 miles as the crow flies north to south. That's in

16 accordance with the scale on the map that we have

17 been using as a reference.

18 Q. Is it your understanding that the

19 agricultural in the EAA is the closest in distance,

20 closest agricultural activity in distance to

21 Everglades National Park?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What other agricultural activity is there

24 closer to the park?

25 A. There's agricultural activity to the east

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1 of the park in the Homestead-Florida City area.

2 Q. Does that activity to your knowledge

3 create any runoff into the park?

4 A. It is not immediately upstream in the

5 natural flow system as the Everglades Agricultural

6 Area is. It is adjacent and to the east.

7 There are some waters -- there is some

8 water that can end up in Taylor Slough from those

9 areas and ultimately Florida Bay and Barnes Sound.

10 Q. Have there been any documented problems in

11 the park as a result of that agricultural activity or

12 the runoff from it?

13 A. I'm not aware of significant nutrient

14 related problems associated with that activity in

15 that area.

16 Q. Are you aware of any other agricultural

17 activity upstream of the park other than that in the

18 EAA?

19 MS. PONZOLI: You mean anywhere in

20 Florida? Anywhere in the United States? What do you

21 mean?

22 Q. That is closer than the EAA.

23 MS. PONZOLI: Below the lake and closer to

24 the park? I mean, it just seems awfully broad.

25 A. I am not familiar with the agricultural

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150

1 uses to the west side of the peninsula, north and

2 northwest of Everglades City, and there may be some

3 uses and activities there that on a straight line

4 crow-fly basis may be physically closer than the

5 Everglades Agricultural Area.

6 Q. What about activity within Water

7 Conservation Area No. 3 north of the park there? Are

8 you aware of any agriculture taking place in that

9 area?

10 A. In Water Conservation Area 3A or 3B?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I am not personally aware of any

13 significant level of activity there.

14 Q. Have you ever been made aware or advised

15 that there is agricultural activity in that area

16 being undertaken in the Miccosukee Indian

17 reservation?

18 A. Specifically within the Water Conservation

19 Area?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I have not been given any detailed

22 information relating to that activity.

23 Q. How about any general information?

24 A. I have been given some general information

25 about the Miccosukee Reservation activity, and I have

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151

1 to be frank with you, that I am still on the early

2 part of the learning curve with a great many of their

3 uses.

4 Q. Are you aware or have you heard any talk

5 about any water quality threats to the park from the

6 Miccosukee Reservation?

7 A. Within the Water Conservation Area?

8 Q. Any water quality threats from the

9 Miccosukee Reservation?

10 A. I am aware of developed uses by the

11 Miccosukee along Tamiami Trail and there is, of

12 course, a potential for effect from developed

13 residential uses and activities along in that

14 immediate area.

15 Q. Would cattle grazing within that Water

16 Conservation Area create a potential water quality

17 threat?

18 A. You are asking me to speculate?

19 Q. No. I am asking you based on your

20 knowledge and expertise and experience in dealing

21 with water quality issues and your knowledge about

22 the Everglades in general.

23 A. Is there such a use and can you describe

24 it to me?

25 Q. I am here to ask the questions. But

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152

1 assume that there is cattle grazing. I can't

2 describe for you the extent of it. But assume that

3 there are significant amounts of cattle grazing

4 associated with the Miccosukee Reservation.

5 A. I guess I would characterize that as a

6 speculative answer and I wouldn't, in line with your

7 instructions earlier, I wouldn't care to speculate.

8 Q. My more recent instruction is that for

9 this question assume that this is true and assuming

10 that as an expert witness you can answer a

11 hypothetical question like this, assuming that there

12 is cattle grazing activity going on in the Miccosukee

13 Indian reservation, is that a potential water quality

14 threat to the park in your mind?

15 A. It certainly is an activity that I would

16 want to assess.

17 Q. What kind of water quality problems can

18 emanate from cattle grazing activity?

19 A. I personally have not been involved in

20 managing any grazing uses before so aside from saying

21 that that is an activity that I would want to have my

22 staff assess and I would want to evaluate, I wouldn't

23 care to speculate.

24 Q. I take it you have heard no report on

25 cattle grazing in this area at least up until now?

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153

1 A. Within the Water Conservation Areas?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No. Are you saying there is such an

4 activity going on?

5 MR. GAINES: Off the record.

6 (Discussion off the record)

7 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

8 BY MR. GAINES:

9 Q. I notice that the park boundary extends

10 beyond the end of the land here out into the Florida

11 Bay area and the, I guess it is the Gulf of Mexico

12 over here on the west. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is this area of the park that is out in

15 the water here, is that considered an estuary area?

16 Or how would you describe it?

17 A. You are referring to Florida Bay?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. That is considered an estuary.

20 Q. What is the meaning of that? What is an

21 estuary? What makes an area an estuary?

22 A. It is an area that is significantly

23 affected by an interrelationship between a marine

24 environment and a riverine environment.

25 Q. I am sorry, what was the second part,

154

1 marine environment and --

2 A. Riverine environment.

3 Q. Riverine?

4 A. Yes, basically the mouth of a river.

5 Q. Is another way to say it, that it is an

6 area where fresh water and salt water are mixing or

7 is that less accurate?

8 A. That is characteristic of an estuary

9 environment.

10 Q. Is the area of the park over on the west

11 above Cape Sable also an estuary environment?

12 MS. PONZOLI: Above Cape Sable?

13 MR. GAINES: Yes.

14 MS. PONZOLI: And below the Highland

15 Point?

16 MR. GAINES: This area here above Cape

17 Sable all the way up through the northwestern

18 boundaries of the park in Everglades City?

19 A. I don't believe it is characterized as

20 such, if you are referring to the areas immediately

21 off the coast.

22 Q. What would that be characterized as in

23 that area?

24 A. I would assume a marine environment.

25 Q. In the Florida Bay, the estuary area we

155

1 talked about, you said an area significantly affected

2 by the interrelationship between a marine and a

3 riverine environment. The word riverine to me

4 suggests a river. Is that a safe assumption?

5 A. That's what it was meant to be.

6 Q. On the map here I don't see a river. So

7 where, can you explain the process here by which this

8 is an estuary?

9 A. I believe the bay captures -- has

10 traditionally captured water, fresh water from Taylor

11 Slough, Shark Slough and possibly some water from the

12 west area of Cape Sable in the bay.

13 Q. Is the bay -- does this water reach the

14 bay through what is called sheet flow across the park

15 or does it enter it in channels?

16 A. Are you referring to what traditionally

17 occurred or historically occurred or are you

18 referring to what occurs today?

19 Q. Start with what historically occurred and

20 then tell me what occurs today.

21 A. I believe that historically most of the

22 water coming into Florida Bay occurred as a result of

23 sheet flow across the Everglades down Shark Slough

24 and Taylor Slough.

25 Q. When you talk about Shark Slough, what

156

1 area are you referring to here on the map?

2 A. Turn it over and look at the map that is

3 basically a part of the park brochure.

4 MR. GAINES: Can I get one of these from

5 you, by the way?

6 (Pause)

7 A. I would like to note in the expanding on

8 your question about the area up along the West Coast

9 that the entire area could not be characterized as an

10 estuary, though there may be some localized estuary

11 environments associated with some of the outfalls

12 along that stretch of the coast.

13 Q. Looking at this map I see that Taylor

14 Slough just north of Florida Bay there, it looks to

15 me as though the Shark River Slough flows more out to

16 the west and would spread water to the north on to

17 Cape Sable. Is that historically what occurred?

18 A. I think when you are looking at Shark

19 River Slough and Taylor Slough, you are looking at

20 the, the dark colors there represent the deeper

21 portions of the slough, not necessarily the entire

22 breadth of it. One of the things that was

23 traditionally a character of the flows across the

24 Everglades was broad sheet flow.

25 Some of that fresh water may have exited

157

1 in the vicinity of Cape Sable, currents may have

2 brought it into, either directly down through

3 Whitewater Bay into the Florida Bay or around Cape

4 Sable into the east and into the western portions of

5 the bay.

6 Q. That was the historical path. What is

7 today, what is occurring today with regard to water

8 entering Florida Bay?

9 A. I think there is some water traveling the

10 historical paths but it is significantly altered from

11 what occurred both in, well, in several aspects and

12 particularly in regard to Taylor Slough there are

13 significant diversions of water going down the C-111

14 canal and have exited into Barnes Sound which is not

15 a part of Florida Bay, and not traditionally an

16 estuary environment.

17 Q. Is it an important goal for the park to

18 have steps taken to try to restore the broad natural

19 sheet flow you were talking about?

20 A. It is an important goal of the park to

21 restore a natural system of water into the entire

22 park. That includes quantity, quality, timing and

23 distribution.

24 Q. What benefits will be obtained from

25 restoring the quantity, timing and distribution,

158

1 leaving quality out of it for the moment?

2 MS. PONZOLI: Benefits to the entire park

3 or to Florida Bay?

4 MR. GAINES: To the park.

5 A. I cannot leave quality out of it. It is

6 an integrally, interrelated factor that must be

7 resolved along with quantity, timing and distribution

8 issues.

9 Q. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Let's

10 put it this way: Assuming the lack of a water

11 quality problem for this question, what problems,

12 environmental problems would you expect to find in

13 the park based upon the disruption of quantity,

14 timing and distribution that we are talking about?

15 A. Any significant alteration of the -- of a

16 more natural rain driven water system would cause

17 significant ecological alterations throughout the

18 park and --

19 Q. Such as what?

20 A. Such as changes in the number of the

21 biological communities. Wading birds are probably

22 the most frequently mentioned indicator of change.

23 There are significantly fewer in number today than

24 there were several decades ago.

25 Q. What is the mechanism that has impacted

159

1 wading birds? Is it too much water, too little

2 water? How are they impacted by changes in the

3 natural quantity, timing, distribution of water?

4 A. They are affected by significant

5 alterations from a natural process of water dynamics

6 and conditions.

7 Q. Is it correct then that too much or too

8 little water can impact wading birds?

9 A. Yes, and too sudden a change and water at

10 the wrong location.

11 Again, I come back to the fact that the

12 water issue is an integrated one. It is quantity,

13 quality, timing and distribution, and any significant

14 alteration in any direction of what occurred

15 naturally when the Everglades as a whole system

16 functioned would have an adverse effect on the

17 natural and native communities, biological

18 communities that we are charged to preserve.

19 Q. I understand your testimony that these

20 issues are all interrelated including quality and

21 quantity.

22 My question, just focusing on this one

23 issue, assumes that quality is not a problem, but for

24 whatever reason --

25 A. I cannot make that assumption.

160

1 Q. You can, you can make that assumption

2 because I am asking you to. That quality has been

3 addressed, let's say, for example, it is ten years in

4 the future and the STAs have been put into effect and

5 it turns out that they work and there is no more

6 water quality problem and all the water entering the

7 park is of whatever quality you as the superintendent

8 would like it to be, but that it is still entering

9 the park through this plumbing system and this

10 artificial timing, distribution and quantity of

11 water.

12 My question is what effects, what adverse

13 environmental effects would you expect to find

14 occurring in the park as a result of that?

15 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object. It

16 has been asked and answered.

17 Q. We have talked about wading birds and

18 changes in biological communities. Are there any

19 others?

20 MS. PONZOLI: Other than changes in

21 biological communities?

22 Q. Any others besides wading birds. I think

23 you said that was a sensitive bioindicator. What

24 other communities would you expect to be indicated?

25 A. I would expect the entire biological,

161

1 native biological community to be impacted if the

2 water system was not functioning in a manner

3 consistent with traditional natural processes that

4 occurred.

5 Q. In fact, have such problems been observed

6 in the park as of now?

7 A. Certainly. We just see different fire

8 regimes which have impacts on biological communities

9 as well.

10 Q. What is the role of fire in the natural

11 Everglades?

12 A. Wildfire is a natural part of the

13 processes that occur.

14 Q. When a wildfire occurs what does that do

15 to the system? Is fire something that is necessary

16 for the perpetuation of the Everglades system?

17 A. Yes. It was traditionally an integral

18 process, part of the processes that occurred there.

19 Q. What role did it play?

20 A. It depends on where and when the fire

21 occurred.

22 Q. Can you give me an example of some of the

23 impacts that fire would have naturally in the

24 Everglades?

25 A. It can eliminate cover and thin out and

162

1 open up some vegetated areas which can change habitat

2 for other communities dependent upon certain

3 vegetative conditions, for example, I am very

4 familiar with fire as a natural part of a system. I

5 do not have a detailed understanding of the role and

6 effects of fire at Everglades. I am learning that.

7 Q. Who on your staff do you consider to be

8 knowledgeable in that area?

9 A. We have ecologists on the research staff.

10 Q. Anybody in particular that comes to mind?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Someone under Dr. Soukup's --

13 A. Yes. Well --

14 Q. Let me ask you -- I am sorry. Go ahead.

15 A. I also have a fire management staff.

16 Q. Who is in charge of fire management staff?

17 A. My chief ranger.

18 Q. Who is that?

19 A. At the moment Ken Morgan. And there is a

20 fire management officer working for him. He deals

21 more with the operative ends of fire behavior and

22 suppression, control and monitoring.

23 Q. Has the change in the timing, quantity and

24 distribution of water in the Everglades altered the

25 role that fire plays in the Everglades?

163

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What has that alteration been?

3 A. Among other things, it has altered fire

4 behavior and effects when areas are dryer or wetter

5 than they traditionally were, and even part and time

6 of the year a natural ignition from a lightning

7 strike can cause either a much retarded or much

8 expanded burn.

9 Q. When there is a fire in the Everglades now

10 in the park, for example, is there an effort made to

11 extinguish that fire or are there occasions when the

12 fire is allowed to burn itself out?

13 A. We have both circumstances occur.

14 Q. What determines how you treat a fire?

15 A. Whether we feel the natural conditions are

16 altered and whether we feel there is any potential

17 threat to people or property. Basically those are

18 the key parameters.

19 Q. Leaving out the people or property aspect

20 of it for a minute, is it correct then that if a

21 judgment is made that a fire that is occurring in the

22 park is the type of fire which would naturally have

23 occurred and would serve this natural, beneficial

24 purpose that fires serve, it is allowed to burn,

25 absent some threat to people or property?

164

1 A. No fire that is artificially ignited is

2 allowed to burn. Fires that are naturally ignited

3 are monitored and evaluated on a continuous basis to

4 determine whether or not they fall within the

5 prescription for the area that they are occurring in.

6 And if they fall within the prescribed conditions

7 under which natural fire occurred, they are not

8 suppressed but they are monitored, and if they appear

9 to be -- if conditions appear to be moving to the

10 limit of that prescription, either in terms of

11 weather conditions or the area that is being burned,

12 additional steps are taken to contain, control or

13 suppress the -- may be taken to contain, control or

14 suppress the fire.

15 Q. Would it be your expectation that if

16 natural quantity, timing, distribution of water could

17 be reestablished in the park and throughout the

18 Everglades, that the number of fires that would meet

19 that prescription that would be naturally occurring

20 fires under conditions which historically existed

21 would increase? Maybe I shouldn't say the number but

22 the proportion of the fires that you see.

23 A. I don't think it is a numerical thing.

24 Natural conditions can vary dramatically from year to

25 year and the number of fires that would naturally

165

1 occur could numerically vary in accordance with those

2 conditions. There are high rainfall years and there

3 are drought years.

4 What we would likely see is, I would

5 assume again, not having had a detailed -- an

6 opportunity to acquaint myself in detail with the

7 fire ecology and planning here at the park, but I

8 would assume that a greater percentage of those fires

9 that did occur naturally would fall within a

10 prescription.

11 Q. I understand you haven't gotten into the

12 detail of the entire regime, but could you also have

13 a situation where there are fires occurring in a

14 portion of the park that may meet the natural

15 criteria you are talking about but due to the fact

16 that other portions of the park are dryer than they

17 should be and more prone to risk that you might take

18 actions to extinguish what otherwise would be a

19 naturally acceptable fire because you only have so

20 much scarce resources to deal with and the other part

21 of the park isn't acting the way you would like it to

22 -- you have to compensate for that in the portion

23 where the fire is? Is that a potential scenario?

24 MS. PONZOLI: You mean by extinguishing

25 the fire, that is what you are saying?

166

1 MR. GAINES: Yes.

2 A. With any fire that occurs there is a

3 continuous process of evaluation and risk assessment

4 that could result in altered response or treatment.

5 Q. And the types of issues I was just asking

6 about, that would be part of the overall risk

7 assessment?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Let's talk for a little while about the

10 hurricane and the impact that has had on the park.

11 We all know the hurricane occurred about

12 three months ago now. Can you tell me what impacts

13 the park suffered from the hurricane?

14 A. The park as an organization suffered

15 tremendous impacts. It was as devastating in human

16 terms to the park organization as it was to the rest

17 of the community.

18 Approximately 101 employees either had

19 their homes destroyed or severely damaged. Another

20 76 employees -- and when I say these numbers, I mean

21 employees of the South Florida parks including Big

22 Cypress National Preserve, Biscayne National Park,

23 Everglades National Park and Fort Jefferson National

24 Monument.

25 But an additional 76 employees had

167

1 significant damage occur to their homes.

2 Q. I understand you are one of those people

3 that had your home damaged.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In addition to the human equation and the

6 large number of park staff that suffered personally,

7 has the park staff been able at this point to

8 evaluate what ecological impacts the park suffered as

9 a result of the hurricane? I say suffered, maybe a

10 better word would be experienced.

11 A. In response to the hurricane our emergency

12 and recovery efforts focused first on employees and

13 their families, their health and safety; secondly on

14 protecting the property, facilities and property of

15 the park; and then subsequently, the conduct of as

16 thorough an assessment as possible of both facilities

17 and resources as could be done in an expeditious

18 manner.

19 Q. Where does that assessment stand

20 currently? Is that being completed or is that

21 ongoing?

22 A. It is, the effort has been completed, it

23 occurred over a two to three week period of over the

24 latter part of September and early October. Teams of

25 architects and engineers did a building by building

168

1 condition assessment and a team of approximately 25

2 scientists were brought in to do a survey of resource

3 conditions.

4 They have provided their initial briefing

5 on that and their report is close to being final.

6 Q. When do you expect to receive that?

7 A. We have received some drafts of it so far,

8 and I would anticipate certainly having the final

9 documents by Christmastime, and an executive summary

10 within a week.

11 There is a one-page summary that has been

12 made available to the press and other individuals

13 that is a preliminary summation of some of the

14 findings.

15 Q. How would you describe overall based on

16 these drafts and preliminary reports that you have

17 seen what the impact has been?

18 A. Vegetatively there was a significant

19 amount of damage across the main path of the

20 hurricane. Broadly, vegetation was stripped bare.

21 Many trees were uprooted and pushed over. Others

22 were snapped off. Various types of vegetation

23 sustained different degrees of damage.

24 The vegetation is -- that was not killed

25 outright is re-leafing and coming back and even trees

169

1 that were pushed over on their root balls where some

2 roots are still attached, most of the trees in that

3 condition are anticipated to re-leaf.

4 Very, very little mortality of wildlife

5 occurred in Everglades. The largest mortality was a,

6 we found in the three parks was at the south end of

7 Biscayne National Park, there was one localized area

8 where there were a hundred or so birds killed, water

9 birds killed, but very, very little mortality

10 discovered as a result of the storm. They either

11 weathered the storm or got out of its path and for

12 the most part have come back into their traditional

13 areas.

14 Q. Other than the trees which were uprooted

15 or snapped, what other types of vegetation was

16 affected, for example, was sawgrass impacted by the

17 hurricane?

18 A. Not visibly, and that's a point I would

19 like to stress.

20 This was a first blush analysis on what

21 visible damage had occurred. There are a number of

22 questions that only several years of monitoring will

23 tell in terms of long-term effects on vegetation

24 communities and specific wildlife habitat.

25 For instance, a concern given the wind

170

1 nature of the hurricane was the degree to which

2 exotics like Melaleucca, Casuarina and Brazilian

3 pepper were, had seeds spread across the park at a

4 time when the native vegetation was under significant

5 levels of stress. It will be several years before we

6 can tell the extent of that occurring. There were

7 some exotic animals like monkeys from companies

8 raising them for laboratory purposes and some exotic

9 pets from the built up areas to the east that we know

10 were set loose during the storm and we know that

11 within a week of the storm we had spotted a monkey at

12 East Cape here in the park.

13 The degree to which, the variety and the

14 number of exotic animals escaped into the park, the

15 degree to which they will survive and begin to

16 compete with other native species is a somewhat

17 unknown factor right now and only monitoring over the

18 next several years will begin to tell that story.

19 Q. How wide is the area that was directly

20 affected by the storm from north to south?

21 A. 25 to 35 miles.

22 MR. GAINES: Off the record.

23 (Discussion off the record)

24 MR. GAINES: Let's go back on the record.

25 A. The path of major destruction for the

171

1 storm literally hit Biscayne National Park. The

2 northern end of the park was at the northern end of

3 the main path of destruction. The southern end of

4 the park where it comes in contact with Pennecamp

5 State Park was at the southern end of the main path

6 of destruction. It took a generally westerly course

7 but moved slightly to the north as it moved across

8 the peninsula.

9 The southern -- Homestead was in the eye,

10 park headquarters, however, missed the eye, it was

11 just in the southern wall of the eye and of course

12 the area just south of Tamiami Airport where Country

13 Walk is just missed the eye in the north wall of the

14 storm and it tracked at a slightly north of due west

15 path as it crossed the peninsula.

16 By the time it got over the Everglades

17 City area a good deal of the force of the storm had

18 diminished so that we did not receive significant

19 structural damage to facilities at that location.

20 But everything from the east boundary of the park

21 through to the west coast received, along that

22 corridor, received a significant amount of damage.

23 Q. Was there a significant amount of rainfall

24 received by the park in the storm?

25 A. No. It was a relatively dry event for a

172

1 storm -- for a hurricane. We received more rainfall

2 in the several days following the hurricane than we

3 received during the hurricane itself.

4 The storm moved through the area

5 relatively quickly.

6 Q. Is there a particular person or group

7 charged with preparing this report?

8 A. Dr. Gary Davis headed the group up.

9 Q. Is he employed by the park?

10 A. He is employed by the National Park

11 Service. The emergency response to the hurricane was

12 accomplished through what we call the incident

13 command system, and we brought in an overhead

14 management team and began to draw in trained

15 emergency response personnel from all over the

16 country and from several different federal and state

17 agencies.

18 It is a system that was developed

19 associated with the interagency fire, while fire

20 suppression system, the management team that was

21 brought in was the same that handled the Yellowstone

22 fire several years ago and when we reached the stage

23 of damage assessment, the teams that were brought in

24 were again the best experts we could find from all

25 over the country, and by no means were they all

173

1 National Park Service employees.

2 Q. Is Dr. Davis the one preparing the overall

3 report on this?

4 A. Dr. Davis has the overall responsibility

5 for seeing that the report is prepared. He is

6 preparing the executive summary. He is responsible

7 for assuring that each of the members of the

8 assessment group finish and file their reports.

9 Q. Is there a planned monitoring program

10 going into the future for the next few years to

11 determine the long-term effects of the storm?

12 A. Part of the report that we are getting

13 includes recommendations on what actions need to be

14 taken in response to the storm.

15 We are developing a research and

16 monitoring program proposal based on those

17 recommendations and we will be implementing it once

18 it is approved.

19 Q. A storm such as Hurricane Andrew, although

20 I guess a storm of that magnitude occurs only rarely,

21 is it correct to state that that is a natural event

22 that the Everglades area has suffered many times over

23 throughout history?

24 A. Hurricanes in this region are certainly a

25 natural part of the system.

174

1 Q. In fact --

2 A. They have a significant impact on park

3 resources and put it under a significant level of

4 stress. That in and of itself is not considered

5 unnatural. That added to other stresses that the

6 resource may be under may be far more problematic.

7 Q. In fact, I noted in your description of

8 the problems, a lot of them related to man-induced

9 problems already existing such as exotic plants and

10 exotic animals that are scattered more widely by a

11 storm such as this.

12 MS. PONZOLI: Off the record.

13 (Discussion off the record)

14 MR. GAINES: Back on the record.

15 BY MR. GAINES:

16 Q. Are there any other hurricane impacts that

17 you can think of that we haven't discussed that you

18 are aware of at this point?

19 A. No.

20 MS. PONZOLI: Did you describe structure

21 damage?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I mentioned it.

23 BY MR. GAINES:

24 Q. Was there any damage to any of the Central

25 and South Florida Flood Control Project structures

175

1 that you are aware of?

2 A. I know there was some damage. I don't

3 know the nature and extent of it. The general

4 impression I have from the Corps and the Water

5 Management District is that that damage was not

6 severe.

7 Q. Can you give me an idea, shifting gears

8 here a little bit, how the park staff is organized?

9 I assume it is a triangular type of organization with

10 you at the top of it. I want to get an idea of how

11 you are organized there and how you report up the

12 chain of command to the Park Service and beyond.

13 A. Which would you like to handle first?

14 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Gaines, how is this

15 relevant to his expert testimony? We spent all day

16 ranging in a whole lot of fields and the

17 organizational structure of the park has been covered

18 fairly extensively in other depositions. I am not

19 saying he can't answer it but it just seems to me

20 that we are covering the same ground multiple times.

21 MR. GAINES: Suzan, I understand what you

22 are saying, you have been doing this for five years

23 and you may have sat through this particular topic

24 numerous occasions, I never have.

25 MS. PONZOLI: Four. But your law firm has

176

1 sat with me and asked these questions and those

2 depositions are available to read and review.

3 I just mention that by way of saving time

4 and expense and not subjecting people to be covering

5 every inch of the Everglades in every deposition.

6 MR. GAINES: I don't feel capable of

7 covering every inch of the Everglades but certainly

8 when you have the superintendent of Everglades

9 National Park who is being offered as an expert on

10 objectives and priorities and external threats to the

11 park, I would like to know what his staff, how it is

12 organized and where he fits into the National Park

13 Service and who he reports to. I think that is a

14 very basic kind of question. I don't think that is

15 very far afield from anything.

16 So I apologize to you if it is tedious to

17 you at this point but to me it is very simple basic

18 type of questioning.

19 MS. PONZOLI: It could have been much

20 easier had you asked for an organizational chart, we

21 could have done that much faster.

22 MR. GAINES: These are the things I learn

23 as I go.

24 BY MR. GAINES:

25 Q. Anyway, I will ask you to give me

177

1 essentially an organizational chart, if you will,

2 sir, starting with, why don't you start with who is

3 your direct superior and how that works going up the

4 chain.

5 A. I report directly to the regional director

6 of the southeast region of the National Park Service.

7 Q. Where is that person located?

8 A. Atlanta, Georgia.

9 Q. Who is that?

10 A. James Coleman.

11 Q. That is the gentleman who hired you for

12 this job, correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Who is his superior?

15 A. His superior is the director of the

16 National Park Service.

17 Q. And that is in Washington?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Who is that?

20 A. The current director of the National Park

21 Service is James Ridenour.

22 Q. Who would Mr. Ridenour report to?

23 A. The Assistant Secretary of the Interior

24 for Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

25 Q. Do you know who that is?

178

1 A. Mike Hayden.

2 Q. And Mr. Hayden would report to the

3 Secretary of the Interior?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Who is the Secretary of the Interior

6 currently here?

7 A. Manuel Lujan.

8 Q. He would report to the President?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Are you expecting your superiors to be

11 affected by the change in administration?

12 MS. PONZOLI: Come on, Mr. Gaines. I

13 mean, really.

14 MR. GAINES: What? I am sure that the

15 Secretary --

16 MS. PONZOLI: There are basic functions to

17 the federal government when there is a shift in

18 administration that are known by grade school and

19 middle school children and to sit here and question a

20 park superintendent on them I think is harassment.

21 A. I would refer you to my superiors in that

22 regard.

23 BY MR. GAINES:

24 Q. I am sure that we can expect the Secretary

25 of the Interior to change. Would the change go down

179

1 as far as in your experience as your direct superior,

2 the regional director?

3 A. I wouldn't presume to speculate.

4 Q. Have you been superintendent of a national

5 park during prior changes of administrations?

6 A. I have been a superintendent of a national

7 park continuously since May of 1981.

8 Q. Did you ever experience having the

9 regional director replaced when the administration

10 changed?

11 A. Not that I recall.

12 Q. Can you tell me, sir, how many employees

13 are there at Everglades National Park?

14 A. I can only give you an approximation.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. Approximately 200, career status

17 employees, and up to a similar amount of temporary

18 and seasonal employees.

19 Q. You say a similar amount?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How is your staff arranged?

22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

23 A. I have an assistant superintendent.

24 Q. Is that Mr. --

25 A. Jones.

180

1 Q. -- Jones?

2 A. Yes.

3 I have several staff specialists in my

4 immediate office. I have divisions with

5 responsibility for administration, visitor and

6 resource protection, visitor services, facilities

7 management and I have a South Florida Research

8 Center.

9 In addition, I am the superintendent of

10 Dry Tortugas National Park, formerly Fort Jefferson

11 National Monument. I have a site supervisor in

12 charge of operations stationed there.

13 Q. Did you say former Fort Jefferson and

14 changed now to Dry Tortugas National Park?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Is that an automatic, if you are a

17 superintendent of Everglades National Park are you

18 superintendent of Dry Tortugas as well?

19 A. I am superintendent of both areas.

20 Q. Do they always go together like that?

21 A. That is an administrative determination by

22 the National Park Service.

23 Q. The staff specialists that you have in

24 your office, how many of those do you have and what

25 are they specializing in?

181

1 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Gaines, if this

2 continues for three days I will move for sanctions.

3 This is ridiculous. This is not necessary to

4 understand his testimony as an expert witness, nor to

5 qualify him. This is harassment. That's all it is.

6 I really think it is unprofessional and I

7 think it is unnecessary. We have been here since

8 9:00 this morning. It is now 5:10 and we are going

9 to go through every person on his staff? It is not

10 necessary.

11 MR. GAINES: Number one, we are not going

12 through every person on the staff --

13 MS. PONZOLI: That's where it seems we are

14 heading.

15 MR. GAINES: Number two, what is

16 unprofessional is this long speaking objection over

17 very basic questions in a deposition that I am moving

18 very quickly through and I am not coming close to

19 harassing anybody.

20 So if you want to move for sanctions over

21 me asking the superintendent to describe what his

22 staff is, you know, I invite you to do so.

23 MS. PONZOLI: I am sorry, I don't think

24 that it is true that you are moving very fast. We

25 spent the morning going through the job he had had

182

1 between high school and college and then virtually

2 every place he had ever been assigned throughout his

3 entire life. I mean, I think we have covered every

4 I, he dotted every I and crossed every T today.

5 You can continue to go through his staff

6 but I am placing you under a warning, I think you are

7 asking very unnecessary and irrelevant questions.

8 MR. GAINES: I will consider myself warned

9 and I will be comfortable with someone else making

10 that judgment at any rate.

11 MS. PONZOLI: Hearing Officer Menton

12 indicated at the last hearing that we did not need

13 extensive depositions that went on and on on

14 irrelevant points. I suggest you read that

15 transcript and use it for guidance.

16 BY MR. GAINES:

17 Q. Your staff specialists are who, sir?

18 A. I have a public information specialist, a

19 management assistant and a concessions specialist

20 assigned to my immediate office.

21 Q. Who is the management assistant?

22 A. That position is currently vacant.

23 Q. Are you attempting to fill that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The South Florida Research Center, that is

183

1 headed up by Dr. Soukup?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. How many people does he have on his staff

4 working under him in that Research Center?

5 A. You mean positions assigned or employees

6 on board at the moment?

7 Q. How many employees on board at the moment?

8 A. I'd say 35 to 40.

9 Q. How many positions assigned are there?

10 A. Somewhere in the vicinity of 70.

11 Q. Why are there so many unfilled positions?

12 A. A combination of normal turnover on a

13 staff that large and lack of sufficient funding to

14 support all those positions.

15 Q. Is funding the bigger problem there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does the South Florida Research Center do

18 research only within the park?

19 A. The center does research pertaining to

20 management issues identified, associated with the

21 South Florida parks.

22 Q. Is that all four of the South Florida

23 parks?

24 A. Primarily it is Everglades National Park.

25 Q. Who determines or what process is there

184

1 that determines what research is undertaken by the

2 Research Center?

3 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Gaines, I will refer you

4 to Dr. Michael Soukup's deposition which your firm

5 participated in through Mr. Burgess. It took place

6 over three days and I believe the questions that you

7 are asking are all covered at great length in that

8 deposition.

9 MR. GAINES: Thank you.

10 Read back the question, please.

11 (The question referred to was

12 thereupon read by the reporter

13 as above recorded)

14 A. I cannot give you a detailed description

15 of the process by which that occurs. I have not been

16 here long enough to have participated in all aspects

17 of it.

18 It is primarily a process by which Dr.

19 Soukup recommends a program based on his professional

20 assessment, based on my general direction pertaining

21 to issues and priorities.

22 Q. Does the park ever employ outside

23 consultants to perform research?

24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

25 A. Yes.

185

1 Q. Does Dr. Soukup coordinate the research in

2 those instances as well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you receive research project requests

5 from outside the park, from other branches of the

6 government, other agencies?

7 A. Can you clarify that?

8 Q. I understood you to testify that primarily

9 Dr. Soukup recommends projects based on his

10 professional assessment and with your guidance. Are

11 there ever projects that originate some other way?

12 A. I would not characterize what I described

13 as Dr. Soukup's and my role as originating projects.

14 Q. How do projects originate?

15 A. They originate from as many sources and as

16 many individuals as there are out there.

17 Q. Are you familiar enough with the Research

18 Center and the work that is ongoing now to know what

19 are the current research projects being undertaken by

20 the center?

21 A. I know some of them.

22 Q. Do you know whether any of those projects

23 are being undertaken directly related to the

24 litigation here that we are in the midst of or

25 directly as a result, I should say, of the

186

1 litigation?

2 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

3 Are you saying are they litigation

4 related, Mr. Gaines, is that what you want to know?

5 You are not going to answer my question to clarify

6 your question?

7 BY MR. GAINES:

8 Q. Do you understand my question, Mr.

9 Superintendent?

10 MS. PONZOLI: His understanding and my

11 ability to object to it are two separate issues, Mr.

12 Gaines. Does your question go to litigation related

13 or do you wish it to stand just precisely as you

14 stated it?

15 MR. GAINES: I don't know what litigation

16 related means.

17 MS. PONZOLI: I don't know what your

18 question means. Would you like to ask it again?

19 MR. GAINES: Since neither one of us knows

20 what each other's question mean, you may object to it

21 if you like.

22 BY MR. GAINES:

23 Q. Mr. Superintendent, if you understand it,

24 I would request that you answer it. If you don't,

25 let me know and I will try to help you.

187

1 A. Why don't we read it back.

2 (The question referred to was

3 thereupon read by the reporter

4 as above recorded)

5 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to

6 form. I tried to clarify it.

7 A. No, I guess I could not say that I know of

8 projects that are being undertaken as a direct result

9 of the litigation.

10 BY MR. GAINES:

11 Q. Do you know of any research projects that

12 are ongoing that were requested to be initiated by

13 Ms. Ponzoli or her office, the US Attorney's Office?

14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think

15 you are going into privileged areas, Mr. Gaines. I

16 really do.

17 MR. GAINES: Without giving me the

18 substance of what that research is.

19 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to the

20 form of the question, beyond the point that it goes

21 into privileged areas, I think it assumes something

22 that has not been established, nor could it be

23 established because of privilege issues.

24 A. Are you asking about research that my

25 staff is conducting as a direct result of a request

188

1 from the US Attorney's Office?

2 Q. Yes, your staff or outside consultants

3 coordinated by your staff.

4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.

5 A. I know of no research project -- I have

6 triggered no research project as a direct result of a

7 request from the US Attorney's Office.

8 Q. Are you aware as to whether any such

9 project was ongoing that you did not trigger upon

10 your arrival in April of 1992?

11 A. I could not answer that, not knowing what

12 did trigger a given project.

13 Q. Would Dr. Soukup be more knowledgeable in

14 this area than yourself?

15 A. I would assume so.

16 Q. Have you ever discussed this issue with

17 Dr. Soukup?

18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form as to what

19 issue you are talking about.

20 A. I am sorry, could you clarify that.

21 Q. The issue of whether or not the South

22 Florida Research Center or outside consultants under

23 its coordination or direction are engaged in any

24 research projects at the request of the US Attorneys?

25 A. My discussions with Dr. Soukup typically

189

1 revolve around what projects are ongoing and what

2 they are intended to accomplish, not what motivated

3 their initiation.

4 Q. So I take it then you haven't discussed

5 this issue with him?

6 A. Not that I specifically recall.

7 MR. GAINES: This is a logical breaking

8 point for me. 9:00 tomorrow.

9 (Deposition adjourned until 9 a.m.,

10 November 24, 1992)

190

1 I, RICHARD GETTINGS RING, do hereby

2 certify that I have read the foregoing depostion and

3 that the same is a true and accurate transcript of my

4 testimony, except for attached amendments, if any.

13 The signature above of RICHARD GETTINGS RING

14 was subscribed and sworn to before me this

15 day of , 1992. __________

21 Notary Public

22 My commission expires

191

1 CERTIFICATE

2 STATE OF FLORIDA:

: SS.

3 COUNTY OF DADE

5 I, Richard Bursky, a Registered

Professional Reporter and Notary Public for the State

6 of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that I was

authorized to and did report the deposition of

7 RICHARD GETTINGS RING in stenotype; that the said

witness was first duly sworn to testify the whole

8 truth; that the reading and subscribing of the

deposition were not waived by the witness; and that

9 the foregoing pages numbered from 1 to 189,

inclusive, constitute a true and correct

10 transcription of my shorthand notes of the deposition

by said witness.

I further certify that the said deposition

12 was taken at the time and place hereinabove set forth

and that the taking of said deposition was commenced

13 and completed as hereinabove set out.

14 I further certify that I am not an

attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor a

15 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel

connected with the action, nor financially interested

16 in the action.

17 The foregoing certification of this

transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the

18 same by any means unless under the direct control

and/or direction of the certifying reporter.

Witness my hand in the City of Miami,

20 County of Dade, State of Florida, this 5th day of

December, 1992.

_________________________

23 RICHARD BURSKY, RPR, CM

NOTARY PUBLIC AT LARGE

24 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:

July 18, 1994