DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 401 DOCUMENTS TO THE UNIVERSITY. AND WE HAVE A FORMALIZED PROCEDURE AT THE UNIVERSITY HOW TO CREATE CENTERS. AND SOME TIME DURING THE MID '80'S, WE WORKED TOWARDS DEVELOPMENT OF A CENTER, AND I FOLLOWED THOSE GUIDELINES AND THE CENTER CAME INTO EXISTENCE. I THINK IT WAS FORMALLY APPROVED -- IT WAS EITHER LATE 189 OR 190. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE. IT WAS A CENTER; THERE WAS A LETTER FROM THE PROVOST APPROVING IT, BUT IT HAD TO GO BEFORE THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE UNIVERSITY. Q. WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES FOR FORMING A CENTER? DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FUNDING IN ORDER TO BEGIN A CENTER? A. THE FUNDING IS NOT THE MAJOR CRITERIA. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A -- THE COLLEGIALITY REQUIREMENTS ARE SUCH THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ACADEME WORKING GROUP, A FACULTY, CROSS CAMPUSES. THERE'S A GUIDEBOOK PROVIDED BY THE UNIVERSITY. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN, AN OBJECTIVE, A SERIES OF GOALS, AN EDUCATIONAL FORMAT, A RESEARCH FORMAT. YOU HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THIS WILL PROVIDE THE UNIVERSITY A -- IT HAS THE BASIS FOR BECOMING A CENTER OF EXCELLENCE. SO, THERE ARE A NUMBER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 402 OF ITEM -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE CRITERIA, BUT THERE IS A FAIRLY LENGTHY PROCEDURE BY WHICH YOU MOVE FROM STEP "A" TO STEP "B" AND STEP "C". Q. OKAY. AND YOU FILED YOUR FIRST PAPERS FOR THE VARIOUS STEPS WHEN? A. SOMETIME IN THE MID '80'S, 185, 186, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. ARE THOSE DOCUMENTS DOCUMENTS THAT, IF I WERE TO SEND A SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM WITHOUT DEPOSITION, THAT THE UNIVERSITY WOULD ALLOW ME TO OBTAIN? A. YOU'D HAVE TO ASK THE UNIVERSITY. MR. McCAUGHAN: EXCUSE ME, WOULD YOU REPEAT THE FIRST PART OF THAT? MS. PONZOLI: IF I WERE TO ASK FOR THE DOCUMENTS ESTABLISHING THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, WOULD THE UNIVERSITY OBJECT TO THE PRODUCTION OF THOSE DOCUMENTS? MR. McCAUGHAN: LET ME ASK YOU WHAT THE PURPOSE WOULD BE. LIKE ALL INTERNAL DOCUMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY, IF THERE'S A, YOU KNOW, IF YOU FEEL LIKE THERE'S A VALID DISCOVERY--- MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 403 MR. McCAUGHAN: --- FILED, WE WOULDN'T OBJECT TO IT. MS. PONZOLI: CERTAINLY. I THINK I HAVE CORRESPONDENCE INDICATING THERE WERE PEOPLE IN FLORIDA WHO FELT THAT THE CENTER WAS FORMED REALLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THE PARTICULAR INDUSTRY'S RESEARCH. I REALIZE FROM OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT IT SERVES MANY OTHER PURPOSES TODAY. BUT THAT ITS FORMATION CAME DIRECTLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THIS INITIAL FUNDING. AND IF THAT'S TRUE, IT'S TRUE; IF IT'S NOT TRUE, IT'S NOT TRUE. BUT I HAVE NO WAY OF ESTABLISHING THAT WITHOUT THAT INFORMATION. MR. McCAUGHAN: GO AHEAD AND SUBMIT IT, THE SUBPOENA. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT, OKAY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. I GUESS THE SIMPLEST THING IS JUST SIMPLY TO ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, WAS THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE'S INITIAL GRANT, I GUESS, THE SPARK THAT LIT THE FIRE THAT GOT YOU TO WHERE YOU COULD HAVE A CENTER? A. NO, NOT DIRECTLY. IT WASN'T THE PRIMARY PIECE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 404 THERE WAS -- THAT MAY BE ONE OF MANY PIECES. BUT THE CENTER ACTUALLY, AS I SAID, HAD TO HAVE A NUMBER OF CRITERIA. IT HAD TO HAVE FACULTY -- CRITICAL MASS OF FACULTY WHO AGREED; IT HAD TO HAVE SOME GOALS; IT HAD TO HAVE SOME PURPOSE IN THE SCHOOL AT THE TIME; AND, ESSENTIALLY, THE UNIVERSITY HAD TO COMMIT SOME RESOURCES ITSELF, WHICH IT DID, TO ESTABLISHING THIS CENTER. SO, THE CENTER WAS ACTUALLY ESTABLISHED BY THE DEAN OF THE SCHOOL OF FORESTRY WHO COMMITTED FUNDS TO THIS. AND THERE WERE SOME PRIVATE DONORS WHO GAVE TO HELP ESTABLISH THIS. THERE'S AN ENDOWMENT FUND THAT WAS ESTABLISHED FOR THE CENTER. AND THERE ARE SOME STUDENT SCHOLARSHIP FUNDS THAT ARE UNDER MY DIRECTION RELATED TO THE CENTER THAT, AGAIN, CAME FROM VARIOUS SOURCES. SO, THAT -- THAT ALL HAD TO BE PUT IN PLACE. IT HAPPENED ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS THE RESEARCH PROJECT TOOK PLACE, SO IT WAS SORT OF A NORMAL MELDING OF THIS. Q. OKAY. IN THE DESCRIPTION OF THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER, YOU LIST -- IS THIS THE INITIAL ONE? IS THIS -- THIS TYPEWRITTEN VERSION--- A. NO. I BELIEVE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 405 Q. --- THAT'S RICHARDSON--- A. --- THERE ARE SEVERAL EARLIER DRAFTS. IN FACT, AS I MENTIONEDI IN THE MID '80'S, WE HAD TO PRODUCE SOME EARLY DOCUMENTS THAT WOULD BE WHAT THE CENTER -- WOULD BE -- ORIGINALLY, IT WAS CALLED WETLANDS ECOLOGY AND COASTAL SOMETHING CENTER, AND THEN WENT THROUGH SEVERAL ITERATIONS. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN THIS ONE WAS WRITTEN? A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. IT WAS OBVIOUSLY AFTER THE ONE IN THE MID '80'S, SO IT WAS PROBABLY 189, MAYBE 188. Q. MAY I RETRIEVE RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE FROM YOU. IT'S THE ONLY COPY I HAVE. I BELIEVE THAT -- JUST A CURSORY GLANCE -- THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR AND RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE ARE VERY, VERY SIMILAR. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I THINK THEY'RE FAIRLY CLOSE. I--- Q. ALL RIGHT. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT I CAN REALLY SEE OF SUBSTANCE IS, IS THE SELECTED RESEARCH PROJECTS CONDUCTED AT DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER, AND THEN THERE'S A LIST OF PROJECTS. AND THEN -- I GUESS I'D JUST LIKE TO ASK YOU. THAT DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE IN RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE, DOES IT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 406 A. I BELIEVE SOME OF IT DOES, YES. BUT THE PROBLEM IS THE COST OF PRINTING--- Q. SURE. A. --- IS QUITE HIGH--- Q. I CAN IMAGINE. A. ---AND THAT BROCHURE WAS NOT CHEAP. Q. IT'S A VERY HANDSOME BROCHURE. A. I TOOK SOME OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS MYSELF. Q. DID YOU TAKE THE ONE ON THE FRONT, OF THE EVERGLADES? A. NO. Q. SUNSET IN THE FLORIDA EVERGLADES? A. NO, THAT WAS -- THAT WAS ACTUALLY A COMMERCIAL PHOTOGRAPHER WHO DID THAT. Q. CATTAILS OR SAWGRASS? A. OH, IT'S HARD TO TELL IN THE SUNSET. Q. THE LIGHTING IS NOT GOOD, HUH? ALL RIGHT. WHERE ARE THE RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT ARE LISTED? A. IF YOU'D OPEN TO THE INSIDE AND LOOK AROUND THE BORDER--- Q. THE INSIDE SEEMS TO BE A LANDSAT. A. NO, IF YOU'D LOOK AT THE BORDER--- Q. OHHHHHHHHHHHHH! A. --- WHICH NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER DISCOVERED EITHER. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 407 (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. IT WAS MY IDEA TO PLACE THOSE ON THE BORDER, WHICH ACCORDING TO THE PERSON WHO DOES THE LAYOUT, WHO'S A PROFESSIONAL IN THE SCHOOL, IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. BUT THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE I COULD FIT IT IN, AND IT TURNED OUT TO BE NOT A GOOD IDEA. AND NO ONE HAS DISCOVERED THIS. Q. MORE EMPIRICAL DATA RIGHT HERE. ALL RIGHT. THERE'S JUST A COUPLE OF PROJECTS. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE LISTED, AND MAYBE YOU CAN POINT ME TO THEM. A. I'M NOT --- Q. YOU HAVE --- A. EXCUSE ME. Q. GO AHEAD. NO, GO AHEAD. A. NO. YOU ASK YOUR QUESTION. Q. YOU'RE NOT SURE, WHAT? A. NOPE, GO AHEAD. FINISH YOUR QUESTION. Q. TWO PROJECTS -- "ECOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS AND HYDROPERIOD ON CATTAIL REGENERATION AND NUTRIENT RETENTION IN THE WATER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 408 CONSERVATION AREAS OF SOUTH FLORIDA." DID YOU PRINT THAT AROUND THE BORDER? A. I DON'T KNOW. THE -- LISA PHELPS, MY ASSISTANT, JUDICIOUSLY WENT THROUGH, BY SPACE, AND JUST KNOCKED OUT SOME THAT DIDN'T FIT. THERE WAS NO -- I TOLD HER -- I SAID, JUST MAKE THEM FIT. AND SHE JUST -- SHE SAID, "I CAN'T FIT THEM ALL," AND I SAID, "FIT WHAT YOU CAN FIT." Q. AND SINCE NO ONE EVER READ THEM, IT DIDN'T MATTER ANYWAY. A. WELL, I THOUGHT THEY WOULD, BUT APPARENTLY THEY DIDN'T; BECAUSE WE GET REQUESTS, "THANKS FOR THE BROCHURE, BUT WHAT TYPES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS HAVE YOU EVER DONE?" Q. AND YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM LOOK AROUND THE BORDER OF NORTH CAROLINA. AND THEN "THE NUTRIENT AND CONTAMINANT TRANSPORT IN SATURATED AND UNSATURATED SOILS." IS THAT ALSO REFERRING TO YOUR EVERGLADES WORK? I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE; WHERE ARE YOU NOW? Q. THE SECOND -- ON PAGE NUMBER 7. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. THAT MAY REFER MORE TO THE TVA PROJECT THAT WE HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH. AND THAT ALSO COULD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 409 BE -- I -- THAT MAY BE A GENERIC TITLE. I CANFT REMEMBER. I ASKED INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATORS -- THESE ARE NOT ALL MY INDIVIDUAL TITLES. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I DID WAS I WENT TO INDIVIDUALS IN MY GROUP IN THE CENTER AND ASKED THEM FOR VARIOUS TITLES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT THEY WERE DOING CURRENTLY OR -- AND SO. BUT THAT ONE, I THINK, IS MINE, RELATED PROBABLY TO TVA, OR MAYBE THE NORTH CAROLINA STUDY. Q. SURE. ALL RIGHT. ON RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR, YOU HAVE A FACULTY LISTED. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO EITHER ARE DOING RESEARCH ASSOCIATED WITH THE CENTER, OR WHAT? HOW ARE THESE FACULTY LISTED? A. THESE ARE FACULTY WHO HAVE AGREED, BY UNIVERSITY POLICY, TO BE LISTED HERE AND IN THE BULLETINS; TO PARTICIPATE; TO WORK WITH STUDENTS ON WETLANDS ISSUES; TO HELP WRITE GRANTS; TO SERVE ON COMMITTEES; TO TEACH COURSES; ETCETERA. Q. SO, WOULD THEY BELONG -- SO, I SEE THEY DO BELONG TO VARIOUS OTHER DEPARTMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY, BUT THEN THEY JUST SORT OF JOIN TOGETHER IN THIS CENTER CONCEPT --- A. THAT'S THE WAY --- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 410 Q. --- TO SUPERVISE GRADUATE STUDENTS, AND PERFORM OTHER TASKS. A. --- THAT IS THE WAY MOST CENTERS FUNCTION IN MOST UNIVERSITIES. WELL, THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS. Q. OKAY. AND WE SEE THAT DR. RECKHOW IS LISTED AS PART OF YOUR FACULTY. A. THAT IS CORRECT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S REALLY ALL I HAVE ON THAT. I'D LIKE TO--- MS. PONZOLI: LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, I'D LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT AND ASK IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. IT'S A -- THE FIRST ONE HERE IS A LETTER TO IN FACT, IT LOOKS LIKE SEVERAL LETTERS TO NAT REED. DID I ANSWER THAT FOR YOU? Q. DO YOU IDENTIFY THESE AS YOUR DOCUMENTS--- A. YES, THESE ARE--- Q. --- IT'S A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 411 A. --- THESE ARE LETTERS -- A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT. I BELIEVE, AS I SAID, THESE ARE LETTERS THAT -- CORRESPONDENCE THAT I SENT. ONE OF THEM, I DIDN'T SIGN, BUT I THINK I DICTATED TO LISA--- Q. OKAY. A. --- THAT I SENT TO NAT REED. MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MAKE THIS COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX. MR. BURGESS: CAN I JUST GET SOME CLARIFICATION FOR THE RECORD? WHEN YOU REFER TO COMPOSITE EXHIBIT, IS THAT THE MANNER THAT HE'S PRODUCED IT TO YOU, OR IS THAT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU'RE SHOWING IT TO HIM? MS. PONZOLI: NO, THAT'S THE MANNER IN WHICH IT WAS PRODUCED TO ME. AND DUE TO THE RATHER TIGHT TIME CONSTRAINTS OF RECEIVING THE DOCUMENTS AND COMING UP HERE, I HAVE NOT REALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO PULL OUT OF A LOT OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS THE SINGLE ONE OR TWO DOCUMENTS THAT I WISH TO DEAL WITH. BECAUSE BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO ME, THEY WERE ALREADY STAPLED TOGETHER. AND SORT OF UNSTAPLING THEM AND REASSEMBLING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 412 THEM WAS A TASK THAT TIME WOULD NOT ALLOW. SO, IN MANY OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS--- WITNESS: WELL, ON THE FRONT PAGE, YOU'RE--- MS. PONZOLI: --- I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN A SINGLE, OR MAYBE TWO DOCUMENTS, BUT THEY WERE ALREADY PUT TOGETHER. SO, THAT'S ALL I CAN -- THAT'S ALL I COULD DO WITH IT. LET'S MARK THIS COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 6 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU, IT APPEARS THAT YOU INVITED MR. REED TO SERVE ON SOME KIND OF A COUNCIL FOR THE WETLAND CENTER. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS? A. YES. WE -- THE WETLAND CENTER WAS DEVELOPING A COUNCIL. AS PART OF THE MISSION, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, THE UNIVERSITY REQUIRED THAT WE HAVE CERTAIN GOALS AND MISSIONS. AND ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF THAT WOULD BE TO -- THAT WE MENTIONED WAS, IN FACT, BECOME INVOLVED WITH ENVIRONMENTAL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 413 WETLAND ISSUES AROUND THE COUNTRY. AND TO HELP US IN OVERSEEING AND SELECTING PROJECTS AND DOING THINGS, WE WERE TO ESTABLISH A COUNCIL. AND SO WE STARTED THAT PROCESS IN 1990. Q. DID YOU, IN FACT, FORM A COUNCIL? A. NO, WE HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE FORMATION OF A COUNCIL, AS A MATTER OF FACT. Q. IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON? A. WELL, SEVERAL. ONE, WE DID HAVE A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS FROM BOTH PRIVATE SECTOR, AND GOVERNMENT, AND INDUSTRY LINED UP; HOWEVER, OUR ADMINISTRATION CHANGED IN THE SCHOOL, AND THEY DECIDED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO CREATE A SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT COUNCIL, WHICH THEY HAVE DONE. I'M NOT SURE IT'S CALLED A COUNCIL, BUT THEY HAVE A LARGER -- AND THERE WAS A RE -- COMPLETE REORGANIZATION OF THE SCHOOL. A NEW BUILDING WAS BEING DEVELOPED; NUMBERS OF INDIVIDUALS WERE BEING ASKED TO SERVE ON DUPLICATE BOARDS; AND SO, ALLY, THIS WAS PUT ON HOLD UNTIL THE SCHOOL BASIC COULD RE-SORT AND REORGANIZE. AND IT'S OUR INTENTION TO COMPLETE THIS, BUT WE HAVE NOT -- IN FACT, WE HAVE MADE SEVERAL ATTEMPTS SINCE THAT POINT. THE NEW DEAN HAS GIVEN ME THE GO-AHEAD TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 414 SAY THAT WE PROBABLY WILL DO THIS IN THE NEAR FUTURE, BUT WE HAVEN'T. Q. DID MR. REED EVER ACCEPT OR DECLINE YOUR INVITATION? A. HE -- I THINK HIS WORDS TO ME WERE -- WHEN I MET WITH HIM AT HOBE SOUND WAS, IT WAS A GOOD IDEA; HE WAS APPRECIATIVE OF BEING CONSIDERED; HE WAS EXTREMELY BUSY; HE MIGHT CONSIDER IT SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU MENTION IN HERE THAT YOU INTEND TO WORK WITH THE DISTRICT TO DEVELOP BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS, AND I THINK I'VE SEEN THAT IN YOUR WRITING SEVERAL PLACES. IN RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT RESEARCH, YOU TALK ABOUT DOING RESEARCH FOR BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO WETLANDS. A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. IS THIS A -- SORT OF A UNIQUE CONCEPT THAT YOU WOULD DO BMPIS FOR A WETLAND ITSELF? FOR THE NATURAL AREA, YOU WOULD DO THE BMP AS OPPOSED TO THE, LET'S SAY, INDUSTRIAL OR OTHER USE ADJACENT TO THE NATURAL AREA. DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 415 A. ARE YOU -- NOT COMPLETELY. ARE YOU ASKING -- GO AHEAD, REPHRASE IT, PLEASE. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. CAN I SEE THE DOCUMENT THAT YOU'RE--- Q. SURE. SURE. I'M REFERRING TO OVER HERE, RESEARCH IS NEEDED TO -- AND IT'S THE ONE, TWO -- THIRD BULLET DOWN. A. OKAY. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. YES. "DEVELOP BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO WETLANDS." Q. RIGHT. A. OKAY. Q. RIGHT. BUT YOU HAVE PROPOSED IN YOUR LETTER TO MR. REED, AND ELSEWHERE -- I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN HONEST IN YOUR DEPOSITION -- THAT'S WHAT YOU PROPOSED TO DO WAS BMP'S FOR THE ACTUAL NATURAL AREAS THEMSELVES. A. ARE YOU ASKING WHAT'S SO, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION? Q. THE QUESTION IS, ISN'T THAT A RATHER UNIQUE CONCEPT THAT YOU WOULD DO A BMP FOR A NATURAL AREA? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 416 A. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT SAYS NATURAL AREA HERE, IT SAYS--- Q. NO. IT SAYS NATURAL AREA IN YOUR LETTER TO MR. REED AND IN OTHER DOCUMENTS. A. WELL, LET ME -- WHERE DO WE SEE THAT? SHOW ME THAT, PLEASE. Q. THAT'S IN RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX. A. OKAY. WHERE IS THAT? Q. THE END OF THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. "REST ASSURED THAT OUR RESEARCH FINDINGS WILL BE AVAILABLE TO ALL AND MADE PUBLIC AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IN ADDITION, WE WILL WORK WITH THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT TO DEVELOP THE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS.'' A. WELL--- Q. BUT, IN FAIRNESS, DR. RICHARDSON, LET ME TELL YOU THE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES APPEARS THROUGHOUT YOUR DOCUMENTS. I MEAN, I CAN FIND IT OTHER PLACES. A. OH, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. I JUST--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- YOU SAID -- I THOUGHT YOU SAID FOR NATURAL WETLANDS. I DON'T SEE WHERE IT SAYS NATURAL WETLANDS HERE. THAT'S MY POINT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 417 Q. OH, YOU DON'T CONSIDER THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS NATURAL AREAS? A. NOT ANY MORE. Q. OKAY. A. I MEAN, THEY ARE WETLANDS, BUT THEY ARE NOT--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- IN THEIR ORIGINAL NATURAL STATE. THAT'S WHY I WAS LOOKING FOR THE WORD NATURAL. FOR A WETLANDS, YOU CAN HAVE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR WETLANDS AS WELL AS YOU HAVE FOREST LANDS. A PERFECT CASE IN POINT IS WE HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH WEYERHAEUSER. AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW, PINE PLANTATIONS ARE TECHNICALLY WETLANDS, AND BOTTOM LAND HARDWOOD FORESTS AND SO FORTH, WHICH ARE FORESTRY PRACTICES. THERE ARE -- THEY ARE SYSTEMS THAT CAN BE NATURAL, OR MANAGED, OR MANMADE, AND THEY ARE CONSIDERED WETLANDS, AND YOU CAN COME UP WITH BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THOSE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS, AND THEY ARE LEGALLY DEFINED AS WETLANDS. Q. THE FORESTRY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, ARE THOSE INDUSTRY-RELATED ACTIVITIES WHERE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIMBER IS REMOVED FROM THE LAND, A CERTAIN AMOUNT IS LEFT, A CERTAIN AMOUNT IS REPLANTED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 418 A. IN SOME CASES, YES. Q. OKAY. BUT IN ANY PLACES WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO MAINTAIN NATURAL AREAS, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH, LIKE, BMP'S FOR THOSE NATURAL AREAS? THAT WAS MY QUESTION, REALLY. A. WELL, WE HOPE TO DEVELOP SOME BMP'S RELATED TO -- THERE IS NO REASON THAT YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR WETLANDS SYSTEMS. Q. SO, THIS IS SORT OF A UNIQUE IDEA AT THE CENTER THAT HASNFT REALLY--- A. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF -- PROBABLY ONE OF THE AREAS WE WOULD LIKE TO PURSUE. Q. OKAY. OVER IN YOUR LETTER OF JULY 1990, AGAIN TO MR. REED, YOU'VE SENT HIM A COPY OF YOUR FIRST ANNUAL REPORT, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE GOING TO QUANTIFY THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL, AND DETERMINE IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES FOR THE ECOSYSTEM. AND I GUESS I WOULD ASK YOU WHAT THE IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE DEVELOPED FOR THE EVERGLADES ARE? A. WELL, AS I -- THE INFORMATION I HAVE TO DATE, WE, BASICALLY, IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES, WOULD BE TO LOOK AT THE -- THE PRIMARY ONE WOULD BE HOW TO REDISTRIBUTE THE WATER RELATED TO THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 419 SURFACE FLOW OF THESE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS. THAT WOULD BE ONE AS RELATES TO SORT OF THIS LANDSCAPE REVIEW. Q. YOU'RE JUST BEGINNING THAT, THOUGH, AREN'T YOU? A. WELL, I'VE COMPILED INFORMATION ON IT; I HAVEN'T PULLED THAT ALL TOGETHER. AND THEN, IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES, I THINK WE WILL TRY TO -- WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL, AND, AS IT RELATES TO MANAGEMENT OF THESE SYSTEMS, I BELIEVE ONE OF THE IMPORTANT ASPECTS WAS TO DETERMINE IF AND HOW LONG PHOSPHORUS COULD BE STORED IN THOSE SYSTEMS, AS I FELT THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT AREA TO TAKE A LOOK AT. Q. AND YOU'VE DECIDED HOW LONG CAN IT BE STORED? A. WELL, I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT YEAR OR DATE ON HOW LONG IT CAN BE STORED. IT SEEMS TO BE -- IF IT'S -- I THINK I CAME UP WITH A FAIRLY INFORMED APPROACH ON HOW TO BASICALLY LOOK AT PEAT ACCRETION AND PHOSPHORUS STORAGE FOR THAT SYSTEM, AND A MECHANISM THAT BASICALLY INDICATES THAT IF YOU CAN MAINTAIN REASONABLE HYDROLOGY, YOU CAN STORE IT FOR AN INFINITE LONG PERIOD OF TIME. I CAN'T SAY EXACTLY HOW LONG. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 420 Q. HAVE YOU DONE THE MODELING FOR THE HYDROLOGY SO THAT YOU COULD SAY TO THE DISTRICT THIS IS THE PRECISE HYDROLOGY THAT YOU WOULD NEED TO USE WITH THESE AREAS TO MAINTAIN THEM IN AT LEAST THEIR CURRENT CONDITION? A. WE HAVE STARTED TO DO SOME OF THAT MODELING. Q. WHO IS DOING THAT MODELING FOR YOU? A. I'M HAVING A STUDENT WORK PRIMARILY ON THAT MODELING. Q. WHICH STUDENT IS THIS? A. WELL, IT'S A CO-STUDENT OF MINE AND DR. RECKHOW'S, SONG. Q. SONG. OKAY. WHEN WILL THAT WORK BE COMPLETED? A. I'M NOT SURE. HE IS -- HE'S COMPLETED THE LITERATURE REVIEW AND SOME DATA COMPILATIONS, AND I THINK HE HAS DONE SOME FIRST OR SECOND CUTS ON SOME OF THE DATA. Q. OKAY. WHAT MODEL ARE YOU GOING TO USE FOR THIS? A. WELL, RIGHT NOW, THE FIRST CUT ON IT IS MORE OF A BEYSIAN STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AS IT RELATES TO THE ACTUAL WATER QUALITY DATA, AND THE HYDROLOGY, AND THE INPUTS AND OUTPUTS, AND FOR THE SPECIFICS OF THAT. I COULD GIVE YOU SOME TERMS, BUT IT WOULDN'T MEAN A WHOLE LOT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 421 Q. NO, YOU CAN DO THAT, BUT I WOULD ASK YOU TO PLEASE DO IT IN LAYMAN'S LANGUAGE. I MEAN, I IMAGINE THERE IS A SPECIFIC HYDROLOGIC MODEL THAT YOU WOULD NEED TO USE. A. WELL, WE'RE DEVELOPING A HYDROLOGIC MODEL--- Q. YOU'RE GOING TO BUILD YOUR OWN MODEL--- A. --- AND THEY'RE DEVELOP--- Q. --- FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT? A. NO, NO, FOR A SPECIFIC COMPONENT. WE ARE DEVELOPING SOMETHING FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, PRIMARILY. Q. SO, YOU ARE DEVELOPING A WATER MODEL FOR 2A, THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT IF THIS WATER MODEL WERE USED -- I MEAN, JUST SO I'M -- SO I MAKE SURE WE'RE ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH -- 2A WOULD REMAIN, IN YOUR OPINION, IN ITS PRESENT STATE. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. THAT'S NOT THE OVERALL GOAL. THE GOAL OF THE MODEL AT THE PRESENT STAGE RIGHT NOW IS TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HYDROLOGY AND WATER QUALITY. AND THE SECOND PHASE, THE SPECIFIC GOALS OF THAT MODEL, WHICH ARE TO BE DETERMINED -- THERE MAY BE ANOTHER PHASE -- REALLY ARE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF DR. RECKHOW, NOT MYSELF. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 422 Q. OKAY. SO, THE FIRST PHASE IS YOU'RE STILL TRYING TO SEPARATE OUT THIS ISSUE THAT YOU'RE NOT EVEN SURE WE CAN SEPARATE OUT, HYDROLOGY AND WATER QUALITY, IS THAT RIGHT? A. WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME -- WE'RE TRYING TO TEASE OUT SOME COMPONENTS WITH A LIMITED DATABASE THAT IS AVAILABLE. WE'RE TRYING TO BASICALLY SEE IF THERE'S A RELATIONSHIP, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN WATER DEPTH AND WATER QUALITY, AND FLOW AND WATER QUALITY, AND SOME OTHER ASPECTS OF THAT. Q. SO, YOU'RE REALLY AT A VERY EARLY STAGE OF A RESEARCH PROJECT? A. FAIRLY EARLY IN THAT, YEAH. HE'S BEEN WORKING ON THAT A NUMBER OF MONTHS, BUT--- Q. DO YOU THINK THIS WILL TAKE SEVERAL YEARS? A. I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA. DR. RECKHOW WOULD HAVE A BETTER IDEA, BECAUSE THE LAST FEW MEETINGS THAT SONG HAS MADE UPDATES ON HIS PROGRESS, I HAVE NOT ATTENDED; I HAVE BEEN AT DEPOSITIONS. Q. DR. RECKHOWFS WORK THAT HE'S DOING ON THIS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL BE USED IN THESE PARTICULAR PROCEEDINGS IF IT'S COMPLETED, PHASE TWO? A. WHAT'S THE LAST PART, PHASE TWO? YOU'VE GOT ME ON THAT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 423 Q. WELL, YOU SAID PHASE ONE WAS BEING DONE BY--- A. OH, PHASE TWO. Q. --- SONG ON HYDROLOGY AND WATER QUALITY. YOU HAVEN'T REALLY TOLD ME WHAT DR. RECKHOW IS DOING ON PHASE TWO, I DON'T THINK; OR IF YOU DID, I MISSED IT SOMEHOW. A. I AM -- AS I SAID, I'VE MISSED -- WE HAD SOME EARLY MEETINGS TO -- MY ROLE IN THIS HAS BEEN PRIMARILY TO HELP SONG UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM, AND TO PROVIDE WHAT DATA I COULD, AND TO HELP HIM LOCATE SOME OTHER DATA. DR. RECKHOW HAS BEEN PRIMARILY THE MODELING PERSON FOCUSING ON THIS. AND I HAVE BEEN -- WELL, I'VE BEEN THERE SORT OF AS A -- AS AN EXPERIMENTALIST AND AS AN ECOLOGIST, TO TRY TO BASICALLY GUIDE THEM IN TERMS OF WHETHER THIS MAKES ANY REASONABLE -- AS YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW, REASONABLE SENSE. MODELERS CAN MAKE MODELS, BUT THEY MAY NOT SIMULATE THE SYSTEM ACCURATELY. Q. OH, I COULD SAY WITH SOME CERTAINTY THEY MAY NEVER MAKE SENSE TO SOME OF US, BUT--- A. BUT, IN ANY CASE -- SO HE IS -- HE HAS MADE SOME PROGRESS, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN THE LAST TWO PRESENTATIONS, SO I DON'T--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 424 Q. SO, REALLY, THERE'S NOT LIKE TWO PHASES IN THE SENSE THAT YOU DO ONE TASK, AND THEN THERE'S A WHOLE SEPARATE SET OF TASKS. IT'S ALL THE BUILDING OF THIS MODEL, AND YOU'RE JUST SIMPLY DOING THE DATA INPUT AND THE ECOLOGICAL CONCERNS, AND THEN DR. RECKHOW--- A. INTERPRETATION. Q. --- IS GOING TO DO -- INTERPRETATION OF WHAT, THE DATA? A. WELL, INTERPRETATION OF WHICH DATA WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, AND WHETHER IT MAKES ECOLOGICAL SENSE. Q. OKAY. WHICH DATA ARE YOU DIRECTING MR. SONG TO IS IT DR. SONG OR MR. SONG? A. MR. SONG. Q. MR. SONG. A. QIAN. Q. MR. QIAN SONG? A. NO -- WELL, IT WOULD BE QIAN SONG IN CHINA, BUT IT'S SONG QIAN HERE. Q. SORRY. MR. QIAN. WHICH DATA? A. MOST OF IT COMES FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT'S FILES. Q. ARE THEY IN THE SWIM PLAN? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 425 A. THIS DATA? Q. YES, SIR. A. SOME COMPONENTS OF IT ARE, I THINK. Q. COULD I HAND YOU THE SWIM PLAN AND YOU COULD TELL ME WHICH ONES YOU'RE DIRECTING HIM TO USE? A. THE RAW DATA WOULD NOT BE, I DON'T BELIEVE, IN THE SWIM PLAN. Q. I'M HANDING YOU -- LET ME JUST PUT IT ON THE RECORD -- THE SUPPORTING INFORMATION DOCUMENT AND THE APPENDICES. TAKE YOUR CHOICE WHERE YOU THINK THIS DATA MIGHT APPEAR. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. WELL, THE RAW DATA -- MY CURSORY VIEW OF THESE DOCUMENTS--- Q. WELL, TAKE YOUR TIME, BECAUSE WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE BUILDING THIS MODEL -- THE DATA YOU'RE BUILDING IT FROM, BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BE USED. AT LEAST FROM THE NAMES YOU'RE NAMING AND THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, I WOULD ASSUME THIS IS GOING TO BE USED IN OUR SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDINGS --- A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE--- Q. --- AND NOBODY'S SAYING NO AROUND THE TABLE, SO --- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 426 A. --- TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IT WILL NOT BE. THIS IS SOME--- Q. THEY'RE NOT SAYING NO, DR. RICHARDSON. THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD SIGN, IT'S FREE AIM--- A. WELL, TO MY--- Q. --- THERE ARE CLUES HERE. A. THIS PROJECT IS PRIMARILY BEING RUN, FIRST OF ALL, AS A GRADUATE STUDENT PROJECT TO BASICALLY DO A Ph.D. DISSERTATION ON--- Q. OKAY. A. --- SO--- Q. WELL, I MEAN, IF MR. GREEN OR MR. BURGESS WANT TO TELL ME THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TESTIFY FROM THE BASIS OF IT, OR THAT DR. RECKHOW ISN'T GOING TO, THEN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T NEED TO GO SO FAR DOWN THIS ROAD--- A. WELL, I--- Q. --- THEY'RE LETTING ME CHASE A BLIND ALLEY, IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. BUT, ANYWAY--- A. IN ANY CASE, THE RAW DATA TO SUPPORT THIS IS NOT HERE -- SOME OUTPUT DATA. THE ONE THING I DO KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ONE OF OUR EARLY MEETINGS WAS, I GAVE SONG A CHARGE, COULD YOU TAKE THE ORIGINAL DATA FROM THE SWIM PLAN, APPENDIX B, FOR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 427 EXAMPLE, LIKE, ON PAGE -- THIS IS NOT THE -- I'M NOT GIVING YOU THE -- ANYTHING MORE THAN A TEST THAT I GAVE HIM TO SEE IF HE COULD START WITH, COULD YOU REPRODUCE, FOR EXAMPLE, ON PAGE B-148--- Q. I DON'T NEED HIS TEST. I NEED THE ACTUAL DATA, DR. RICHARDSON. A. BUT IT'S -- THE DATA'S NOT HERE. Q. IT'S NOT IN THE SWIM PLAN? A. NO. THIS IS THE OUTPUT; THIS IS NOT THE DATA. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. TELL ME WHICH DATA AT THE DISTRICT YOU DIRECTED HIM TO USE, OR SUGGESTED THAT HE USE, OR APPROVE THAT HE USE -- THE NAME OF IT. A. OH. THE DATA WOULD BE THE INFLOWS AND OUTFLOWS, ALL OF THOSE FROM WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, THE RAINFALL DATA. Q. FROM 2A? A. FROM 2A. ANY SURFACE WATER DATA THAT WE COULD OBTAIN IN TERMS OF SURFACE WATER QUALITY; SOME OF MY DATA THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE RELATED TO THE--- Q. WHICH OF YOUR DATA? A. SOME SURFACE WATER QUALITY. HE IS NOW PERUSING THAT AT THIS POINT, I BELIEVE, BUT I'M NOT SURE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 428 WHAT HE'S GOING TO INCLUDE OR NOT INCLUDE OF MY DATA. Q. IS YOURS ORTHO? IS YOUR SURFACE WATER ORTHOPHOSPHATE? A. IT IS MOSTLY ORTHO. Q. AND THEIRS IS TOTAL PHOSPHORUS FOR THE DISTRICT -- THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT? A. I THINK IT'S BOTH, IN SOME CASES. THERE ARE SOME -- IT'S BOTH. SO--- Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE? YOUR SURFACE WATER QUALITY, ORTHOPHOSPHATE DATA. WHAT ELSE? A. WELL, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ALL ASPECTS OF OUR DATA. WE MAY LOOK AT SOME PORE WATER DATA. WE MAY LOOK -- WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ACCRETION INFORMATION. SO, WE ARE TRYING TO BASICALLY GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A FUNCTIONS, AND SEE IF WE CAN DEVELOP--- Q. IS THIS PART OF YOUR -- ARE YOU GOING TO BASE PART OF YOUR LANDSCAPE REVIEW ON THIS OR IS THIS A SEPARATE -- TOTALLY SEPARATE ISSUE? A. IT'S ONLY ONE PIECE. I DOUBT -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WILL BE FAR ENOUGH ALONG TO DO ANYTHING WITH AT THAT TIME. AND THIS IS TRULY A Ph.D. DISSERTATION. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 429 Q. WHAT PARAMETERS IS THE MODEL GOING TO TRY AND PREDICT? A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE CURRENT VERSION IS GOING TO PREDICT. THAT'S UNDER DR. RECKHOW'S CHARGE. WE ORIGINALLY -- I THINK THE ORIGINAL ONE THAT I TOLD YOU WAS TO LOOK AT SURFACE WATER QUALITY IN RELATIONSHIP TO WATER CHARACTERISTICS. Q. DID YOU TALK ABOUT THE DEPTH AND FLOW? A. DEPTH AND FLOW; INFLOW, OUTFLOW, RAINFALL. Q. SO -- JUST SO I'M STRAIGHT, YOUR IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY DETERMINED BASICALLY INVOLVE FOCUSING ON THE TYPE OF RESEARCH AND THE TYPE OF MODELING THAT YOU BELIEVE WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF 2A, REALLY? A. YES. IT'S GOING TO BE BASED, TO A LARGE DEGREE, ON OUR -- WHEN WE FINISH OUR FIVE- TO SIX-YEAR STUDY, WE EXPECT TO HAVE SPECIFIC MANAGEMENT RECOMMENDATIONS THAT COULD INCLUDE, AS YOU KNOW, FROM THE DOSING STUDY, WHAT MIGHT BE INAPPROPRIATE RANGE OF VALUES. WE MAY HAVE THE EFFECTS OF MASS LOADING, THE STORAGE CAPACITIES. IT'S HOPED THAT WE WILL HAVE SOME HYDROLOGY INFORMATION. AND IT IS ALSO -- AND, AS I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 430 MENTIONED TO YOU, IT WAS HOPED TO HAVE A FIREWATER NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY, WHICH WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT DONE AT THIS POINT, BUT I THINK THAT IS CRITICAL TO UNDERSTANDING HOW TO MANAGE THESE SYSTEMS. Q. YOU SAID APPROPRIATE RANGE OF VALUES. FOR WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? A. NUTRIENT VALUES, PRIMARILY, LOOKING AT BOTH THE GRADIENT STUDY, THE FERTILIZER STUDY AND THE DOSING STUDY, TO TRY TO PIECE TOGETHER THE INFORMATION TO COME UP WITH WHAT I THINK WOULD BE PREDICTIVE OR REPRESENTATIVE VALUES FOR HOW THE SYSTEM RESPONDS TO THOSE, BOTH LOADS AND CONCENTRATION. Q. TOWARD WHAT GOAL, DR. RICHARDSON? A. TOWARDS WHAT GOAL? Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. TO TRY TO DETERMINE, PROBABLY IN ONE CASE, A DOSE RESPONSE; IN ONE CASE, TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE LEVELS THAT WOULD CAUSE A CHANGE -- A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN THE SYSTEM. Q. BUT TOWARD WHAT GOAL? WHY DO WE EVEN CARE WHAT LEVELS ARE COMING IN? I MEAN, I THINK BEFORE LUNCH, WE CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT WE HAD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 431 SOME AREAS THAT HAD CHANGED BECAUSE OF NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, BUT THEY HAD BENEFITS AND THEY HAD VALUE AS HABITAT, AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ANYTHING NECESSARILY INAPPROPRIATE OR NEGATIVE ABOUT THOSE. I MEAN, IT SEEMED TO ME FROM OUR DISCUSSION THIS WAS OKAY, THAT A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION TOTAL PHOSPHORUS WAS COMING IN, THAT IT HAD CAUSED CERTAIN CHANGES IN THE SYSTEM AND SO WHAT? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: I JOIN IN THAT TOO. A. YEAH. I'M NOT SURE -- THE QUESTION. I DONFT BELIEVE I SAID--- MR. BURGESS: "SO WHAT." Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) "SO WHAT"-;' A. SO WHAT, OR A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION WAS GOOD OR ANYTHING. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THOSE NUTRIENT LOADS NEED TO BE REDUCED FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY? A. I THINK I SAID FAIRLY CLEARLY THAT I THOUGHT THAT I HAD RECOMMENDED EARLY ON THAT THE BMP SHOULD BE PUT IN PLACE AND THAT PHOSPHORUS SHOULD BE REDUCED TO AS LOW A LEVEL AS POSSIBLE TO THE SYSTEM, BUT WHAT LEVEL THAT IS, I DO NOT KNOW. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 432 Q. OKAY. THAT'S THE -- SO LOWERING THE NUTRIENT INPUT, YOU WILL AGREE, IS AN APPROPRIATE GOAL? A. YES, I AGREE THAT'S A GOAL. Q. OKAY. WHAT WE ARE IN DISAGREEMENT ABOUT IS TO WHAT LEVEL IT SHOULD BE LOWERED. A. I DON'T PARTICULARLY DISAGREE. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT AT THE MOMENT, BUT WHEN WE FIND OUT WHAT WE THINK THE RANGE IS, WE MAY THEN BE IN DISAGREEMENT. I'M NOT SURE. WE MAY BE IN AGREEMENT. Q. BUT I ALSO UNDERSTOOD YOU TO SAY BEFORE LUNCH THAT YOU FEEL NO URGENCY OR IMMEDIACY TO OBTAINING THIS ANSWER? A. WELL, I EXPECT TO DO IT WITHIN THE TIME FRAME IN WHICH THE ORIGINAL GRANT WAS SET UP. I DON'T EXPECT -- THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS DOES NOT, UNFORTUNATELY, BEND TO THE LEGAL SYSTEM VERY EASILY. SO, AS WE GET INFORMATION ALONG THE WAY, WE WILL PROVIDE IT WITH THE ESTIMATOR -- THE SORT OF COMFORT INTERVALS WE HAVE AROUND IT, AND I THINK WE HAVE DONE SO. WHEN WE DON'T HAVE IT, I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE HESITANCY IS, AS IT WOULD BE FOR MOST SCIENTISTS, IS SIMPLY GUESS AS TO WHAT IT WOULD BE. SO, I THINK WE ARE MAKING EXTREMELY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 433 GOOD PROGRESS TOWARDS THIS. Q. AND WHY IS IT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD REDUCE THESE NUTRIENT INPUTS OR PHOSPHORUS -- SPECIFICALLY, PHOSPHORUS INPUTS TO, LET'S SAY, WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, FOR EXAMPLE? A. WELL, AS I THINK I SAID, TO 2A, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, I'M NOT SURE IF YOU REDUCED THEM SIGNIFICANTLY, IT WOULD MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE IN THE LONG RUN TO THE SYSTEM RIGHT NOW. I THINK YOU COULD CONTINUE -- I THINK THEY SHOULD BE REDUCED FROM THE SOURCE IN THE SENSE THAT THE AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY PROBABLY HAS THE ABILITY TO DO SOME OF THAT, AND THEY COULD DO IT WITHIN SITE. AND THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A VERY LARGE PUBLIC PERCEPTION IN THE NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE IDEA THAT, IN FACT, THESE SYSTEMS ARE BEING DISTURBED BY THIS. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THESE SYSTEMS ARE DISTURBED BY THE NUTRIENT INPUT? I BELIEVE THERE IS SOME ALTERATION THAT TAKES PLACE, YES. Q. IS THAT A DISTURBANCE? A. IT COULD BE CONSIDERED DISTURBANCE IN SOME CASES. Q. DO YOU CONSIDER IT A DISTURBANCE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 434 A. YES. BUT, AS I MENTIONED, I DON'T THINK IT'S A MAJOR PROBLEM. IT'S A MUCH -- IT'S A LOCALIZED PROBLEM. Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID TODAY THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NUTRIENTS SHOULD BE CONTROLLED AT THE SOURCE. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I BELIEVE THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS -- ONE OF THE WAYS TO DO THAT IS TO CONTROL IT AT THE SOURCE. THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVE LIMITED POSSIBILITIES OF HOW TO DO THAT. THAT RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE. Q. OKAY. IN YOUR OPINION, HAS THAT RESEARCH BEEN DONE? A. TO DO IT AT THE SOURCE? Q. YES, SIR. A. I'M NOT AWARE OF -- I KNOW OF SOME ONGOING STUDIES, BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY ANSWERS THAT HAVE COME OUT OF THAT RESEARCH. Q. HAVE YOU DONE, IN THE PAST -- IN ANY OF YOUR OTHER EXPERIENCE OR EVEN IN THIS, IN LOOKING AT IT, HAVE YOU DONE ANY THOUGHT ABOUT ECONOMIES OF SCALE WHERE IT MIGHT BE CHEAPER TO DO IT IN MAYBE ONE LARGE AREA AS OPPOSED TO AT EVERY SOURCE OUTPUT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 435 A. YES. I'M NOT SURE IF I UNDERSTAND, THOUGH. I DON'T THINK I'D RECOMMEND THAT IT BE DONE AT EVERY SOURCE, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EVERY FIELD. I'm NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SOURCE." DO YOU MEAN EVERY SINGLE FIELD IT WOULD BE DONE AT, OR EVERY SINGLE--- Q. WELL, WHERE DO YOU RECOMMEND? WHEN YOU SAY "AT THE SOURCE," I GUESS I THINK OF THE INDIVIDUAL LANDOWNER BECOMING RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DISCHARGE. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT REGIONAL TREATMENT SYSTEMS? A. WELL, I THINK THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING WITHIN REGIONS. IT COULD BE SOMETHING IN -- IF IT WAS AN URBAN AREA THAT WAS DOING SOMETHING, THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A REGIONAL SYSTEM. IF IT WAS AN AGRICULTURAL AREA, THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT WAS THERE. ALL RIGHT. AND I ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED THIS TO THE INDUSTRY--- MR. GREEN: OBJECTION. Q. --- FOLLOWING YOUR INITIAL RECOMMENDATIONS EARLY ON, BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU HAD RECOMMENDED THIS IN THE VERY BEGINNING, DID YOU NOT? MR. GREEN: OBJECTION. MR. BURGESS: YEAH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 436 MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM. A. I THINK I SAID I RECOMMENDED THAT THEY LOOK INTO BMP'S TO REDUCE THE SOURCE. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT I MEANT WHEN I SAID YOU HAD RECOMMENDED IT. HAVE YOU CONTINUED OR AT ANY TIME SINCE THEN RECOMMENDED IT AGAIN TO THE INDUSTRY? A. THE BMP'S? Q. YES. A. YES. Q. AND YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED THAT THEY TRY TO CONTROL THEIR NUTRIENTS AT THE SOURCE? A. YES. Q. AND WHAT HAVE THEY SAID? A. THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO AS FAST AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN. Q. AND HOW DO YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO? A. WELL, I BELIEVE THEY'VE STARTED MONITORING ALL OF THEIR OUTPUT SITES SO THEY GET A BETTER HANDLE ON THE FORMS AND SOURCES OF PHOSPHORUS. I BELIEVE THEY'VE STARTED TO UNDERTAKE A SERIES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS TO LOOK AT SOME REMEDIAL METHODS. I THINK THEY ARE LOOKING AT WATER PUMPING AND REROUTING OF WATER. I--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 437 Q. REGARDING WATER PUMPING AND REROUTING OF WATER, DR. RICHARDSON, ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY WIDESPREAD USE OF WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITHIN THE EAA? A. I BELIEVE THERE MAY BE A NETWORK. I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY SEEN THEM NOR HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH THEM. Q. HAVE YOU EVER -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT CONTROL OF THE WATER TABLE WITHIN THE EAA MIGHT BE ONE OF THE PRIMARY BMPIS THAT THEY COULD USE TO CONTROL THEIR NUTRIENT OUTPUT? A. BY RAISING -- ARE YOU ASKING ME TO RAISE AND LOWER THE WATER LEVELS WITHIN THE EAA? IS THAT WHAT--- Q. WELL, TO RAISE THEM AND NOT TO PUMP AS MUCH, NOT TO DISCHARGE AS MUCH, TO PUMP AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED AT THAT. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW, BUT, I MEAN, THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT MIGHT BE A MAJOR BMP THAT COULD BE USED? A. WELL, I THINK IF YOU -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THEY ARE UNDER RESTRICTIONS. THEY CANNOT REDUCE FLOWS BY MORE THAN A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE. SO, I THINK THERE MUST BE A BOUND WHICH THEY CAN DO THAT ONLY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 438 IN WHAT THEY--- Q. SO, YOU THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT EXCEEDING THEIR TWENTY PERCENT (20%), AND SO THEY ARE NOT HOLDING BACK WATER? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU KNOW, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I DON'T -- I'M NOT PRIVY TO ANY INFORMATION ON THE EAA. I'VE NOT BEEN AT THE EAA IN -- OTHER THAN PROBABLY BEING CLOSE, AND I'VE NOT BEEN IN THE FIELD IN THE EAA IN MAYBE TWO YEARS. Q. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE FIELD EVER IN THE EAA? A. MAYBE A HALF A DOZEN. Q. SIX TIMES IN--- A. MAYBE. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. --- THREE AND A HALF YEARS? HAVE YOU EVER DISCUSSED THESE WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITH THE INDUSTRY? A. NO. Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY ACTUAL BMPIS THAT YOU KNOW FOR A FACT ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I THINK I WAS AT THAT MEETING, THE SAGE MEETING WHERE SOME BMPIS WERE PROPOSED. AND I, QUITE FRANKLY, CAN'T TELL YOU WHICH ONES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 439 THEY WERE IMPLEMENTING AND WHICH ONES THEY WERE PROPOSING TO IMPLEMENT. BUT THERE WERE A NUMBER LISTED. I BELIEVE FOREST IZUNO MENTIONED AT ONE OF THE MEETINGS -- I QUITE OFTEN GET PRESENTATIONS, AS YOU KNOW, TO THE EVERGLADES PROTECTION DISTRICT. AND HE QUITE OFTEN COMPLAINS ABOUT FOLLOWING ME, I GUESS. BUT HE ALSO, THEN -- HE QUITE OFTEN TALKS ABOUT THE PROJECTS THAT HE HAS AND SOME BMP'S AND MATERIALS AND THINGS THEY'RE DOING. Q. THESE ARE PROPOSALS, THOUGH. THESE ARE NOT THINGS THAT YOU KNOW ARE ACTUALLY BEING IMPLEMENTED? A. MY LAST UNDERSTANDING IS, IN A MEETING I MADE AT A PRESENTATION I MADE IN NOVEMBER, HE WAS THERE TALKING ABOUT -- THIS IS A RECOLLECTION THAT HE HAD IN PLACE THESE RECORDERS AND THEY WERE DOING COLLECTIONS, AND HAD BEEN DOING COLLECTIONS. Q. I WOULD LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT THAT WAS PRODUCED AMONG YOUR FILES--- WITNESS: WOULD YOU LIKE THESE BACK? MS. PONZOLI: SURE. WITNESS: JUST GIVE ME SOME BREATHING ROOM OVER HERE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 440 Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. THIS IS A RESEARCH NEWS BULLETIN FROM OUR SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT. Q. DO YOU KNOW THE APPROXIMATE DATE OF THIS? I DONFT THINK IT'S ON HERE ANYWHERE, THAT I COULD -- MAYBE I JUST DIDN'T LOOK HARD ENOUGH, BUT I COULDN'T FIND IT. A. I DON'T KNOW. IT'S SEVERAL YEARS OLD. Q. WOULD IT HAVE COME OUT IN 188, BECAUSE IT MENTIONS THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED A THREE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-ONE THOUSAND ($331,000.00) GRANT FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. A. IT WOULDN'T BE '88, THEN. Q. OKAY. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN '89? A. I THINK IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETIME IN 189, AT THE EARLIEST. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU MET WITH MR. WEDGWORTH IN LATE SUMMER, VERY EARLY FALL OF 188, BUT YOU DIDNFT GET YOUR GRANT UNTIL SOMETIME INTO 189? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. WHEN IN 189 DID YOU RECEIVE THE GRANT? A. THE FIRST QUARTER -- SOMETIME IN THE FIRST QUARTER. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 441 Q. OKAY. AND WAS IT FOR THIS AMOUNT? IS THIS AMOUNT ACCURATE? A. YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE THIS ARTICLE? MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MARK THIS AS RICHARDSON NUMBER 7, IS IT? (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 7 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) A. DID I SEE THIS ARTICLE? Q. DID YOU SEE IT WHEN IT CAME OUT? A. YES. Q. IS IT ACCURATE? WAS THE ARTICLE ACCURATE? DID YOU READ IT BEFORE IT WAS PRINTED? A. MARY MATTHEWS, WHO IS OUR PUBLICATION EDITOR, WROTE THIS ARTICLE, AND HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH ME. I MAY HAVE -- IN FACT, I THINK I DID -- I PROVIDED HER SOME PICTURES. I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE THE MAP CAME FROM, BUT I MAY HAVE ALSO PROVIDED THAT. BUT SHE -- SHE BASICALLY WROTE THIS AS A NEWS ITEM, WHICH SHE DOES FOR -- IF YOU LOOK AT OUR FORMS FOR OUR POLICY CENTER ON ECONOMICS, AND OUR FORESTRY CENTER, AND THE WHOLE SERIES OF OUR CENTERS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 442 Q. OKAY. IS THIS LIKE A DUKE PUBLICATION THAT IS--- A. IT'S A QUARTERLY--- Q. --- SENT AROUND? A. --- PUBLICATION FOR THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT. Q. IS IT SENT AROUND TO THE ALUMNI? A. IT'S SENT OUT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, TO THREE TO FIVE THOUSAND PEOPLE--- Q. OKAY. A. --- ALUMNI, CONTRIBUTORS, FRIENDS. Q. ALL RIGHT. IT PRESENTS IN HERE THAT YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING LET'S LOOK ON THE FAR RIGHT COLUMN, THE MIDDLE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF CHANGED HYDROPERIOD AND INCREASED NUTRIENT LOADINGS, THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN QUANTIFIED. THIS WAS IN '89. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER THREE MAJOR QUESTIONS: WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF INCREASED NUTRIENTS IN WATER PUT -- INPUTS ON THE NATIVE PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS; TWO, WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY; AND, THREE, HOW CAN WATER MANAGEMENT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 443 BE IMPROVED. ARE THOSE STILL THE SAME QUESTIONS THAT YOU'RE SEEKING TO ANSWER? A. FOR THE -- THOSE COVER THE GENERAL OVERVIEW OF THE QUESTIONS. Q. AND I TAKE IT THAT, AT PRESENT, YOU ONLY PARTIAL ANSWERS TO ANY OF THESE -- IS THAT ACCURATE -- THE ONES YOU'VE GIVEN ME OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS? A. RIGHT. I'M SURE WE'LL GET INTO MORE DETAILS ON SOME OF THESE, BUT WE HAVE COLLECTED AND ARE NOW SUMMARIZING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF INFORMATION, ESPECIALLY ON THOSE QUESTIONS. Q. WILL THERE BE ANOTHER REPORT, OTHER THAN THE '92 ANNUAL REPORT, THAT WILL HAVE MORE ANSWERS IN IT, IN THE NEAR FUTURE? A. NOT IN THE NEAR FUTURE. I MEAN, THERE WILL BE SOME QUARTERLY REPORTS AS THEY'RE DUE, AND THERE WILL BE SOME PUBLICATIONS THAT WILL BE COMING FORTH. Q. LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THESE QUARTERLY REPORTS. I REALLY HAVE A QUESTION ON THOSE. I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUARTERLY REPORTS HERE THAT WERE PRODUCED AMONG YOUR EXPERT DOCUMENTS, SO I WON'T BE PASSING THESE OUT. THEY'RE JANUARY 1992 AND SEPTEMBER 1992. A. UH-HUH (YES). DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 444 Q. THOSE WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. DO YOU RECALL WHY? A. I HAVEN'T THE FAINTEST IDEA WHY. Q. WELL--- MR. BURGESS: WELL, I THINK -- FOR THE RECORD, I THINK THAT I WROTE YOU A LETTER, SUZAN, AND SAID THOSE ARE THE LETTER -- THOSE ARE THE DOCUMENTS THAT CURTIS HAS IDENTIFIED FOR ME AS CONTAINING DATA, WHICH HE WILL CONSIDER IN FORMING HIS EXPERT OPINIONS. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THE QUARTERLY REPORTS DON'T CONTAIN DATA, DO THEY, DR. RICHARDSON? A. VERY LITTLE. THEY WOULD HAVE MOSTLY UPDATES ON PROJECTS THAT WOULD SAY THAT NUTRIENT SOIL SAMPLES ARE CONTINUING TO BE ANALYZED, AND WE'VE COMPLETED THE WATER SAMPLES. THEY WOULD -- THEY MAY HAVE A FEW, WHAT I WOULD CALL, TIDBITS. Q. ARE THEY -- ARE QUARTERLY REPORTS JUST MOSTLY, LIKE, REPORT CARDS YOU SEND BACK TO THE CLIENT I'M STILL WORKING ON YOUR PROJECT; THIS IS WHAT I'M DOING? A. BY AND LARGE. THERE MAY BE AN OCCASIONAL -- WELL, IT DOES TWO THINGS FOR THEM. IT KEEPS THEM UP TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 445 WHAT WE'RE DOING ON PROJECTS. IT ALSO NOW -- AT THE REQUEST OF THE EPD, I BELIEVE -- IN THE QUARTERLY REPORTS, IT SAYS, IF WE GAVE ANY PRESENTATIONS OR PUBLICATIONS, WE ARE TO INCLUDE THOSE IN THE BACK. AND WE'VE TRIED TO NOW DO THAT. SO, IT'S A LITTLE MORE FORMALIZED WAY FOR THEM TO BE KEPT INFORMED OF WHAT'S GOING ON, AS THE EPD HAS ASKED THAT THEY AT LEAST BE NOTIFIED NOW BEFORE WE -- IF WE WERE GOING TO MAKE PRESENTATIONS, THEY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT IT. Q. I GUESS WHEN WE GET TO THOSE IN TIME, I WOULD ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THEM AND SEE WHAT CLUES AS TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL YOUR CLIENTS, BECAUSE THEY WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. I ASSUME THERE'S SOMETHING -- SOME TIDBIT IS IN THERE THAT I NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO, BUT I DON'T KNOW. I'M -- THEY JUST -- THE TIDBITS WEREN'T LEAPING OUT. WHAT STUDIES ARE YOU DOING TO STUDY THE EFFECT OF INCREASED WATER INPUTS ON THE NATIVE PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS? THAT WAS UNDER NUMBER ONE, YOUR MAJOR QUESTIONS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 446 A. WELL, WHEN WE ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED THIS PROJECT, AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAD THE IDEA TO DO A FIRE-WATER-NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY. AND SO THERE WERE SOME IDEAS OF WHAT WE WOULD DO IN TERMS OF PUTTING WATER INTO THE SYSTEM. ONE, IT BECAME VERY COMPLEX. AND TWO, WE DECIDED TO LOOK AT THESE PROBLEM AREAS AS INDIVIDUALS. IN OTHER WORDS, LOOK AT, SAY, PHOSPHORUS AND NITROGEN. AND, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, AS FATE WOULD HAVE IT, AS SOON AS WE TOOK THIS PROJECT, FOR THE FIRST TWO YEARS THAT WE WERE IN THIS PROJECT, WE HAD RECORD DROUGHTS. WE HAD NO WATER. I WORKED IN TENNIS SHOES. AND SO THE CONCEPT OF SETTING UP A HYDROLOGY STUDY TO PUMP WATER INTO AN AREA THAT HAD NO WATER TABLE WITHIN FORTY CENTIMETERS TO SEVENTY CENTIMETERS OF THE SURFACE WAS PRETTY UNREACHABLE. SO, I DID ESTABLISH THE DISTURBANCE STUDY AND SET THAT UP FAIRLY EARLY. AND THAT STUDY IS NOW ONGOING. THAT'S THE RECOLONIZATION WATER DEPTH STUDY. I SET UP THE FERTILIZER STUDIES, WHICH HAS A WATER COMPONENT TO IT. AND WE DO HAVE PLANS TO ACTUALLY -- WE HAVE THE DOSING STUDY, OF COURSE. WE HAVE WATER BEING PUMPED AS A CONTROL INTO ONE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 447 SYSTEM COMPARED TO NO WATER BEING PUMPED. AND WE HAVE FULL INTENTIONS TO GO BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED AND LOOK AT WATER AND NUTRIENTS, AND ESPECIALLY WATER INPUTS. Q. ON YOUR DOSING STUDY, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO TURN THAT INTO A STUDY THAT LOOKS AT HYDROLOGY, IN ADDITION TO NUTRIENTS, BY CLOSING OFF YOUR CHANNELS AND HOLDING THEM AT DIFFERENT WATER DEPTHS? A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF RETROFITTING, BUT IT'S A POSSIBILITY, BECAUSE THOSE ARE NOT -- THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE POSITIVE PRESSURE -- IN OTHER WORDS, THEY KEEP WATER FROM COMING IN, BUT IT -- I'M NOT SURE, IF THE WATER GOES DOWN ON THE OUTSIDE, HOW -- THEY'RE NOT TOTALLY SEALED, AND--- Q. HAVE YOU GIVEN THOUGHT TO DOING THAT? A. WE'VE GIVEN SOME THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY -- WE ACTUALLY HAVE -- IN PLANNING THIS SPRING -- SOME THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY DO A HYDROLOGY EXPERIMENT, BUT NOT WITH THAT SITE. I'M NOT GOING TO TAMPER WITH THAT SITE AT THE PRESENT TIME. IT'S BEEN SO DIFFICULT TO GET GOING. YOU JUST WANT TO KEEP IT GOING, HUH? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 448 A. I WOULD LIKE IT TO JUST KEEP FLOWING. Q. TO JUST GO? ALL RIGHT. PHASE ONE, YOU WERE GOING TO -- AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE -- REESTABLISH -- YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK FOR MEANS OF REESTABLISHING SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE PLANTS, AND WATER IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES THAT WOULD IMPROVE WATER QUALITY. HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT? A. WHERE ARE YOU NOW? Q. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. "IN PHASE ONE OF THIS PROJECT, RICHARDSON WILL LOOK AT FACTORS RESPONSIBLE FOR CATTAIL EXPANSION AND MEANS OF REESTABLISHMENT OF SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE PLANTS AND WATER IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES THAT WOULD IMPROVE WATER QUALITY AS WELL AS MAINTAIN NATIVE SPECIES." A. WE HAVE DONE PORTIONS OF THAT WHERE WE HAVE LOOKED AT FACTORS RELATED TO CATTAIL. WE HAVE -- AS I SAID, WE HAVE A VEGETATION EXPANSION STUDY. THE FERTILIZER STUDY WAS AN ATTEMPT TO LOOK AT THAT. SINCE WE HAVE THREE SITES REPLICATED WITH DIFFERENT WATER REGIMES, WE FELT WE COULD GET A HANDLE ON THAT. THE--- HAVE YOU FOUND A MEANS OF REESTABLISHING SAWGRASS AND NATIVE PLANTS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 449 A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAVE -- IN THE GRADIENT STUDY, WE HAVE THOSE TRANSECTS AND -- AND WE HAVEN'T REMOVED THE VEGETATION. MOTHER NATURE MORE, IN A SENSE, DID THAT BY FIRE AND FREEZING, BUT WE HAVE BEEN MONITORING VERY CAREFULLY THE REESTABLISHMENT OF SOME OF THOSE PLANT COMMUNITIES. AND THE DISTURBANCE STUDY IS SET UP TO HAVE KILLED BASICALLY THE NATIVE SEED BANK, AND, THEN, BASICALLY TO DETERMINE WHAT WOULD AFFECT THE REESTABLISHMENT OF PLANTS IN THAT AREA. Q. SO YOU'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH ON HOW TO REESTABLISH SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVES PLANTS. is--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---THAT FAIR? A. YEAH, WE'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH. AND WE HAVE SOME INFORMATION. BUT I THINK, AS I SAY, IN THE NEXT PHASES OF THIS, OUR NEXT -- WE'RE NOW INTO THE FOURTH YEAR OF A SIX-YEAR STUDY, SO WE WILL START PULLING THIS INFORMATION TOGETHER. Q. ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WHAT YOUR TESTIMONY IS ON FIRE AND FROST. WHERE YOU HAVE FIRE AND FROST, AND THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 450 SEED BANK IS NOT DESTROYED, DO YOU BELIEVE -- OR, IN YOUR OPINION, DOES THE CATTAIL COME BACK, OR WILL SAWGRASS REESTABLISH THAT AREA? THE CATTAIL SEEDBANK IS STILL THERE. A. RIGHT. AND YOU SAY, NOW, IF YOU HAVE FIRE AND FROST, OR--- Q. RIGHT. WE CAN TAKE THEM SEPARATELY. IF YOU HAVE ONLY --- A. WELL --- Q. --- FIRE, WILL THE CATTAIL COME BACK? MR. BURGESS: AT THE SAME TIME -- I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU. A. I THINK TO UNDERSTAND RECOLONIZATION OF ANY SITE, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE THE ORDER OF WHICH IT HAPPENS. IF YOU HAD FIRE AND FROST, IT IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN HAVING FROST AND FIRE--- Q. OKAY. A. --- AND--- Q. AND WHICH IS WORSE FOR THE CATTAIL, IN YOUR OPINION? A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE WE'VE HAD A TEST OF BOTH OF THOSE, BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS, WE HAD SEVERAL SEVERE FROSTS, WHICH KNOCKED BACK THE CATTAIL. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 451 Q. IS IT COMING BACK? IS IT REGENERATING IN THOSE AREAS? A. TO SOME DEGREE, YES. Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE CATTAIL IS REGENERATING STRONGER THAN THE SAWGRASS? A. INITIALLY, THE SITES WERE ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT SAWGRASS AND MAYBE NINETY-NINE PERCENT. AND NOW THEY ARE MOVING BACK TOWARDS FIVE PERCENT CATTAIL, MAYBE MORE. WE HAVEN'T -- I HAVENFT SEEN THAT DATA -- I HAVEN'T ANALYZED THAT LAST BIT OF DATA THAT WE TOOK THIS SUMMER. I HAVEN'T SEE IT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WERE THEY BEFORE IN CATTAIL; WHAT PERCENTAGE WERE THEY BEFORE? A. THE SITES THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT? Q. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES). A. ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT CATTAIL. Q. THESE WERE AT THE FAR NORTHERN END OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A? A. RIGHT. Q. AND WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED BELOW? WHICH STRUCTURE ARE WE NOW FINDING SAWGRASS WHERE WE ONCE HAD A NEARLY COMPLETE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE,@ A. WELL, THESE ARE SMALL PLOTS, REMEMBER. I'M NOT TALKING IN A HUGE AREA. I'M TALKING ABOUT NEAR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 452 OUR STATION. SO, IT'S ON THE D-LINE. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE DATA TO SEE WHICH D-LINE. Q. SO -- BUT AT THE TOP OF THE D-LINE, WE COULD FIND SITES THAT HAD BEEN NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT CATTAIL THAT ARE NOW NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT SAWGRASS? A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. I SAID IN 189 WHEN THEY FROZE AND THEN BURNED, THE NEXT YEAR WE HAD ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT SAWGRASS COME BACK. AND, THEN, WE'VE ANALYZED THOSE SITES SINCE THAT TIME, AND I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THE MOST RECENT DATA, BUT I THINK THE SECOND YEAR THERE WAS AN INDICATION THAT CATTAIL WAS COMING BACK IN AT SOME PERCENTAGE. I DON'T REMEMBER THE PERCENTAGE. OKAY. BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE NOW, IN 193, IN THOSE SITES? A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA. Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER? I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU ONLY KNOW THE INITIAL RESPONSE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. BUT I--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I JUST HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA. I JUST DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 453 HAVEN'T HAD TIME. Q. OKAY. I HAD A QUESTION THAT -- DO THESE SITES DOMINATE THE REGION? A. WHICH SITES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT--- Q. THE ONES THAT--- A. --- THE BURN SITES OR THE--- Q. WELL, NO, THE ONES THAT YOU'RE SAYING REGENERATED IN SAWGRASS THAT PREVIOUSLY WERE A HUNDRED PERCENT CATTAIL. A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT IN DETAIL. MY GUESS WAS FROM THE AREA THAT BURNED, IT WAS ONLY A SECTION OF THE D-LINE. WE ONLY LOST ONE SECTION. SO, THE AREA THAT BURNED WAS ONLY A SMALL PIECE. SO I DON'T BELIEVE THEY WOULD DOMINATE THE AREA. Q. OKAY. SO, IF I INFER FROM THIS WHAT YOU -- WHAT YOU WOULD SAY IS, THAT, IF YOU COULD HAVE A GOOD FROST AND THEN GO IN AND BURN, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO WHAT? A. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT IF YOU -- THIS GIVES US SOME INDICATION FOR THE FIRST TIME, IN AN AREA THAT SHOWS SOIL NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, THAT, IN FACT, YOU CAN MANAGE SOME OF THOSE SPECIES. IT APPEARS, OBVIOUSLY, THE FROST KNOCKED THE CATTAILS BACK--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 454 Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- FIRST. BUT, ALSO, AS THEY MANAGE IN THE NORTH WITH CATTAILS, YOU CAN BURN THEM ON SEVERAL SUCCESSIONS. THERE ARE CERTAIN WAYS TO PROGRAM THAT. THERE MAY VERY WELL BE WAYS IN WHICH YOU CAN MANAGE THE CATTAILS AND PRODUCE SAWGRASS WITH FIRE. Q. IN THE EVERGLADES? A. IN THE EVERGLADES. Q. ON THOSE MUCK SOILS? A. I BELIEVE SO. Q. YOU COULD HAVE CONTROLLED FIRES THAT WOULD TAKE OUT THE CATTAILS SUCCESSFULLY WITHOUT CAUSING THE MUCK TO BURN? A. WELL, THEY BURN SAWGRASS. WE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN OUT THERE A NUMBER OF TIMES WHEN THE STATE WARNS US. THEY BURN ALMOST CONTINUALLY. THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE OF STATE OF FLORIDA BURN YEAR AFTER YEAR. IN FACT, THEY FEEL, IF FIRE IS NOT AN INTEGRAL PART OF THAT COMMUNITY, IT HELPS RELEASE NUTRIENTS AND REGENERATE THE SAWGRASS, AND SO FIRE IS A VERY INTEGRAL PART. AND SO I WOULD SEE VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE OF BURNING SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 455 Q. DO YOU INTEND TO RUN EXPERIMENTS TO SEE IF THIS IS, IN FACT, SUCCESSFUL? A. THAT'S ONE OF THE HOPES WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE. Q. ARE YOU GOING DO THAT IN 3B, 2B? A. I'M NOT SURE WHERE WE'D DO IT. AND WE, OF COURSE, WOULD NOT HAVE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO GAIN PERMISSION TO DO THAT. WE WOULD NOT BE GOING OUT THERE SETTING FIRES. I THINK THAT WOULD CAUSE GREAT CONCERN FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE. Q. I THINK YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT. I WOULD ADVISE YOU TO CLEAR IT WITH SOMEBODY HIGHER THAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. MR. GREEN: BUT NOT AT THE TOP. MS. PONZOLI: BUT NOT AT THE TOP, YOU'RE RIGHT. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I HAD ONE MORE QUESTION ON THIS, AND I'LIL LET IT GO. WELL, I HAVE TWO MORE QUESTIONS. I'M SORRY. THERE'S ANOTHER ONE. I HAVE A CONTINUING PROBLEM, DR. RICHARDSON, WITH, WHEN YOU SAY YOUR PRIMARY GOAL IS TO MAINTAIN BIOTIC DIVERSITY -- I'M GOING TO PUT ASIDE ECOSYSTEM FUNCTION BECAUSE I THINK I KNOW WHAT YOU'LL SAY -- BUT BIOTIC DIVERSITY IN THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 456 EVERGLADES AND AT THE SAME TIME MANAGE IT AS A PERMANENT SINK FOR NUTRIENTS, AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TELL ME HOW YOU BELIEVE THOSE TWO ARE COMPATIBLE. A. WELL, I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF SOME MANAGEMENT REGIMES WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED. BUT, AS I SAID BEFORE, I THINK FROM SOME OF THE WORK OF DR. RADER, THAT THERE'S SOME INDICATION THAT THERE IS AN INCREASE IN SOME COMPONENTS OF THE ECOSYSTEM. AND IT RELATES TO THE FACT THAT PHOSPHORUS AT CERTAIN LEVELS WOULD BE A SUBSIDY, WHICH COULD CAUSE AN INCREASE. OUR STUDIES FROM THE FERTILIZER STUDY FROM DR. VYMAZAL SHOWS THAT, IN FACT, YOU GET CHANGES IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER AND DIVERSITY OF SPECIES FROM THE PERIPHYTON. AND WE MAY FIND THAT ON THE DOSING STUDY. SO, I THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH THE -- OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOME RELATIVE CONCENTRATION AND THRESHOLD. THERE'S NO -- AND, AS LONG AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A NONTOXIC NUTRIENT MATERIAL, IN A HIGHLY STRESSED ENVIRONMENT THAT IS LIMITED FOR THAT NUTRIENT, YOU'LL GET AN INCREASE. YEAH, BUT, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK THAT'S A VERY TROUBLING ANSWER, AND LET ME TELL YOU WHY, BECAUSE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 457 DR. RADER'S WORK WAS IN OPEN WATER, ENRICHED SITES, WHICH YOU TELL ME YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY, BUT YOU WILL CONCEDE ARE VERY SMALL IN THE EVERGLADES. AND A VERY SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SCIENTISTS BELIEVE THAT THESE OPEN WATER AREAS ARE CLOSING IN WITH THE CATTAILS THAT SURROUND THEM, SO THEY DON'T EXIST FOR VERY LONG. SO, WHILE THEY MAY HAVE A LOT OF MACROINVERTEBRATES IN THEM FOR THE LIMITED PERIOD OF TIME THAT THEY'RE AVAILABLE TO THIS SYSTEM, IT'S FAIRLY FAIRLY SHORT DURATION. NOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM WITH THESE OPEN WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSING IN? IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT AS AN ECOLOGIST IN THE EVERGLADES? A. AM I LOOKING AT THE RATE AT WHICH THOSE OPEN SITES ARE CLOSING IN? Q. NOT EVEN JUST THE RATE, THE FACT THAT THEY CLOSE IN. DO YOU ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE OPEN WATER, WITH ENRICHED SITES HAVE A TENDENCY TO CLOSE IN THE CATTAILS? A. I HAVE NOT QUANTIFIED THE OPEN SITES CLOSING IN. I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THAT. Q. NOW, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QUANTIFYING AND ESTABLISHING A RATE AND BEING AWARE OF A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 458 PHENOMENON. DO YOU AGREE? A. YES, I THINK WE DID. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE OPEN WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSE IN IN THE EVERGLADES WITH THE CATTAILS AT SOME POINT? NOT AT SOME RATE, NOT AT SOME RATE OF INCREASE. I'M NOT GOING TO -- I HAVEN'T QUANTIFIED IT AND I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO HAS. I JUST -- THAT IT HAPPENS. A. RIGHT. AT SOME POINT, BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "SOME POINT"? Q. YES. I GUESS THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO GO OUT THERE AND DO RESEARCH ON, IS WHAT THE RATE OF CLOSING IN IS, AND, THEN, WE'LL HAVE THEM ALL CLOSED IN AND WE'LL KNOW THE RATE. MR. BURGESS: AND THAT'S EXACTLY HOW HE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. HE HASN'T LOOKED AT IT. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU NEED MORE RESEARCH. IS THAT RIGHT? A. WELL, I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT HAPPENS? A. I BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THOSE AREAS TO DO THAT. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 459 OPEN UP WITH FIRES. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE TO CREATE OPEN AREAS BY CHANGING THE WATER LEVELS. MY POINT IS, I THINK THE SYSTEMS CAN BE MANAGED. THEY ARE BEING MISMANAGED HORRIBLY AT THIS STAGE FOR THE EVERGLADES PURPOSES. SO, I MEAN, I THINK THAT WE CAN COME UP WITH SOME POSITIVE MANAGEMENT, DEPENDING UPON THE GOALS THAT PEOPLE SET FORWARD FOR WHAT THEY WANT. I THINK MY RESEARCH AND MY TEAM'S RESEARCH WILL HELP PROVIDE SOME OF THAT INFORMATION. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE END-ALL. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EVERY PIECE, BUT IT WILL PROVIDE SOME INFORMATION, ESPECIALLY IF WE GET TO DO THE THINGS I THINK THAT ARE APPROPRIATE, THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO. Q. AND THOSE THINGS THAT YOU THINK ARE APPROPRIATE AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO ARE TO OFFER THE ENTIRE WATER SUPPLY TO THE EVERGLADES? A. THE DISTRIBUTION PATTERN--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- TO STOP PUTTING WATER IN THE OCEAN; TO FLOW THE WATER OVER THE SURFACE RATHER THAN MAKE IT POINT SOURCES; TO--- Q. OVER THE EVERGLADES, TO PUT THE WATER OVER THE EVERGLADES? A SHEET FLOW -- IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 460 SAYING? A. TO ESSENTIALLY TRY TO REESTABLISH A NORMAL HYDROPERIOD AND DISTRIBUTION OF THE WATER. IT IS NOW A SERIES OF HOLDING PONDS. Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY MODELING OF THE WATER OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM? A. I HAVE NOT PUT TOGETHER, IF YOU'RE ASKING, A HYDROLOGIC MODEL OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM, NO. Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE WHO IS? A. THEY'RE -- I'M SURE THE DISTRICT AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING THAT. I BELIEVE I WAS AT SOME MEETINGS THAT CARL WALTERS ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER A FIRST-CUT MODEL. HE'S AT THE UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA. AND HE PUBLISHED A -- ONE OF THE FIRST PIECES ON THAT. I THINK TOM MacVICAR WORKED ON SOME PIECES OF THAT AT ONE TIME. Q. HAVE YOU WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A HYDROLOGIC MODEL? A. NO. I'VE NOT WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A HYDROLOGIC MODEL. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF HIS DOING ONE? A. I BELIEVE HE'S DOING SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES IN TERMS OF NUTRIENTS OR WATER OR SOMETHING, BUT I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HE IS DOING. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 461 Q. SO, YOU'VE OFFERED NO ADVICE IN THAT REGARD. A. I HAVE OFFERED NO ADVICE. I MAY HAVE SUPPLIED REPORTS TO HIM AND--- Q. YOUR ANNUAL REPORTS? A. I BELIEVE SO. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK. I DON'T -- ACTUALLY, I'M NOT EVEN SURE WE -- WE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE KEPT RECORDS TO ALL THE HUNDREDS OF THOSE THINGS WE SENT OUT, BUT I DON'T. SO I CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE -- YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WRITE THE CENTER AND ASK FOR ONE, AND LISA COMES AND SAYS WE HAVE TO, UNFORTUNATELY, PRODUCE ANOTHER FORTY OF THESE HORRIBLE DOCUMENTS. SO, WE MAY HAVE PRODUCED -- WE MAY HAVE PRODUCED FOR HIM SOME DOCUMENTS, AND PROBABLY THE APPENDICES TO THE DATABASE. Q. DID YOU PROVIDE ANY DISKS OF WATER QUALITY DATA? A. I DON'T REMEMBER OFFHAND. I'M PRETTY SURE WE PROVIDED THE APPENDICES. WE MAY HAVE PROVIDED A DISK. I'M NOT SURE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU CLEARLY DID NOT PROVIDE ANY ECOLOGICAL APPROACH ADVICE? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. ANY ECOLOGICAL APPROACH ADVICE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 462 Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, I MEAN, I THINK I'VE HEARD YOU SAY SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS THAT YOU APPROACH THESE THINGS AS AN ECOLOGICAL ANALYST OR AN ECOLOGICAL -- OR A WETLANDS ECOLOGIST, ETCETERA, ETCETERA, ETCETERA. AND I THINK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN REGARD TO DR. RECKHOWIS MODELING THAT -- AND SONG QIAN--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- QIAN SONG -- THAT YOU'RE PROVIDING ECOLOGICAL INPUT. IS THAT RIGHT? A. TO DR. RECKHOW? Q. NO, NO, NO. TO DR. QIAN SONG -- SONG QIAN. A. YES. I HAVE TRIED TO GIVE HIM A BETTER--- MR. GREEN: COULD WE GET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON THIS, PLEASE? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IT'S SONG QIAN? A. YES. Q. ALL RIGHT. MR. GREEN: POOR SONG. WITNESS: POOR SONG. A. I HAVE TRIED TO HELP SONG UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS OF THE EVERGLADES AND SOMETHING ABOUT PHOSPHORUS. AND SO HE COMES IN QUITE OFTEN AND, YOU KNOW, ASKS ME QUESTIONS, DOES THIS MAKE SENSE AND THIS MAKE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 463 SENSE, AND I PROVIDE HIM WITH WRITTEN MATERIAL AND PAPERS TO READ AND SO FORTH. Q. BUT YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED THAT TYPE OF ADVICE TO MR. GHERINI. A. I'M GETTING READY TO ANSWER THAT. Q. OKAY. A. NOT TO THAT DETAIL. THE ONLY ADVICE THAT I HAVE DONE IS MAYBE OVER SEVERAL PHONE CALLS, BUT MOST OF THAT WAS SIMPLY WHICH DATA SOURCES MIGHT BE AVAILABLE. AND HE MAY HAVE ASKED ME A FEW QUESTIONS, BUT NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THE DEGREE THAT I'VE DONE WITH SONG. Q. SO, YOU'VE HAD A FEW PHONE CALLS WITH MR. GHERINI DISCUSSING DATA SETS? A. CORRECT. Q. I HAVE TO TELL YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK WHEN I ASKED IF YOU WERE WORKING WITH MR. GHERINI, YOU SAID NO. A. WELL, I'M NOT. I DIDN'T EVEN PROVIDE THE DATA SETS. Q. WHAT DID YOU DO? A. I GAVE THEM TO LISA AND SAID JUST, YOU KNOW, GIVE THEM OUR DATA. I DO THAT FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE. Q. SURE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 464 A. I DON'T CONSIDER THAT, YOU KNOW, A GREAT--- Q. WORKING WITH HIM. ON THE TELEPHONE, WHAT DID YOU DISCUSS? A. HE'D ASKED ME, I GOT, I THINK, THE APPENDICES. I'M NOT CLEAR AS TO WHAT THIS IS--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- WHAT IS IT? SO I BASICALLY TRIED TO TELL HIM WHAT IT IS, SO--- Q. AND, THEN, WHAT ECOLOGICAL ADVICE DID YOU GIVE HIM ON THE TELEPHONE AS TO HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS? A. I TOLD HIM IT WAS COMPLEX. GOOD LUCK WITH HIS MODEL. THAT'S TRUTHFULLY ABOUT WHAT I TOLD HIM. Q. I COULD HAVE TOLD HIM THAT. MS. PONZOLI: LET'S TAKE A BREAK FOR FIVE MINUTES AND START AGAIN. (THEREUPON, A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU READY? WITNESS: I'M READY. EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. DR. RICHARDSON, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU, WE ESTABLISHED IN THE LAST DOCUMENT THAT YOUR FIRST GRANT FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS FOR THREE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-ONE THOUSAND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 465 ($331,000.00), AND YOU SAID YOU'RE LOOKING FOR THAT PROPOSAL FOR ME, THAT LISA PHELPS MAY BE ABLE TO LOCATE IT. IS THAT RIGHT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. IF YOU DO FIND THAT, I'D APPRECIATE IT; AND ALSO THE JANE RAIKES GREENHOUSE WORK. I WOULD LIKE TO HAND YOU A LETTER TO MR. BARBER AND ASK YOU IF THIS BASICALLY OUTLINES WHAT YOU PROPOSED IN THAT PROPOSAL TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. YES, I'VE REVIEWED THIS. THIS IS A LETTER THAT I SENT, MAY 9, 1989, TO ED BARBER, PRIMARILY BRINGING HIM UP TO SPEED ON SOME OF THE ACTIVITIES FROM THAT FIRST GRANT. A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION IS STAFFING AND ORGANIZATIONAL. AND IT RELATES TO, AS IT SAYS IN THE FIRST PART, TRYING TO ESTABLISH WHICH, UNFORTUNATELY, NOW BECOMES CONFUSING BUT AT THAT TIME I WAS REFERRING TO THAT AS A GRADIENT -- AN EXTENDED GRADIENT MIGHT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 466 BE A BETTER WAY TO PUT IT -- A GRADIENT ALL THROUGH 2A AND 3A. Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GRADIENT AND AN EXTENDED GRADIENT? A. WELL, AS I SAID, THAT'S WHY I NO LONGER REFER TO THAT. THE GRADIENT STUDY, THE ONE THAT I REFER TO AS WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A; HAD NOT BEEN SET UP AT THAT TIME. THIS WAS SORT OF A REGIONAL ANALYSIS OF THE AREAS THAT I COULD GET INTO. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. Q. THIS IS WHERE YOU WENT INTO--- A. 3 AND 3 AND--- Q. --- 2 AND 3 AND DOWN NEAR THE PARK--- A. --- THE PARK. Q. AND--- A. --- AND I WAS TRYING TO GET A HANDLE ON--- Q. SURE. A. --- SURVEYING THE AREA FOR MY OWN EDIFICATION TO DETERMINE WHAT WAS WHAT. Q. I'M FAMILIAR WITH YOUR REGIONAL YOUR FIRST REGIONAL EFFORT. IT WAS ONLY A VERY FEW CORES--- A. VERY FEW CORES--- Q. --- THAT WERE PULLED. A. ---SOME PRELIMINARY WATER SAMPLES. IT WAS JUST DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 467 FOR ME--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND MY PEOPLE TO GET SOME IDEA RATHER THAN TO TRY TO RELY ON--- Q. YOU REFER ON PAGE 2--- MS. PONZOLI: WELL, LET'S MARK THIS AS RICHARDSON NUMBER 8, AND THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 8 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHILE SHE'S MARKING THAT, DR. RICHARDSON, I HAD ONE MORE QUESTION ABOUT THE MODELING. ARE YOU -- HAVE YOU GIVEN DATA TO A MODELING EFFORT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND UNDER A CASTANZA? A. I HAVE NOT. Q. YOU HAVE NOT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT MODELING GOING ON? A. I HAVE HEARD FROM SOME PEOPLE THAT BOB CASTANZA MAY BE DOING A MODEL. Q. RIGHT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 468 A. I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT, NOR HAVE I DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM IN ANY WAY. Q. OKAY. THE SECOND PAGE, PARAGRAPH (C), "I HAVE MADE TENTATIVE ARRANGEMENTS WITH ESP" -- IS THAT ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES AND PERMITTING? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. "FOR HELPING US COLLECT A SECOND SET OF GRADIENT SAMPLES DURING JUNE." THESE ARE THESE REGIONAL SAMPLES--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- THAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO? A. CORRECT. Q. DID THEY HELP YOU COLLECT THE FIRST SET OF REGIONAL SAMPLES -- ESP? A. I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME I WENT INTO THE FIELD I WENT WITH SAM JOHNSON. SINCE THEY HAD -- I THINK IT'S JOHNSON OR JOHNSTON. THAT WAS A PERSON WHO WORKED FOR ESP. THEY HAD BEEN COLLECTING SAMPLES IN THE FIELD, AND I'M NOT SURE OF THE ARRANGEMENTS. I DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I TALKED TO ED BARBER. BUT I SAID IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF, FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE COULD GO OUT WITH SOMEONE WHO HAD ACTUALLY COLLECTED SOME SAMPLES. AND SO THE FIRST TIME, WE MADE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 469 ARRANGEMENTS AND -- AIRBOAT ARRANGEMENTS -- I MEAN, I COULD HAVE MADE THESE. BUT, LONG DISTANCE, THEY WERE QUITE DIFFICULT TO GET EVERYTHING -- I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHO TO CALL -- AND CONTACT WITH THE MICCOSUKEE INDIANS TO MAKE SURE IF WE COULD, YOU KNOW, HAVE ACCESS TO WHAT WE NEEDED. AND SO ES&P HAD A PERSON WHO HAD DONE SOME OF THAT. SO, ON THE FIRST TRIP, WE DID COLLECT SOME WATER SAMPLES WITH THEM. WE BASICALLY COLLECTED OUR OWN SAMPLES. THEY WENT ALONG AND PRIMARILY -- I DON'T BELIEVE THEY COLLECTED ANY SAMPLES. WE BROUGHT OUR OWN SAMPLING CORES AND WATER SAMPLERS. AND THEY MAY HAVE DONE SOME VEGETATION -- GENERAL VEGETATION WORK AT THAT TIME. I DON'T REMEMBER IT, BUT THEY DIDN'T -- WE BASICALLY COLLECTED OUR OWN SAMPLES, AND TOOK THEM BACK FOR OUR OWN ANALYSES. SO THEY PRIMARILY WERE LOGISTICS. THEY PRIMARILY GOT US CONTACTS WITH THE AIRBOAT PEOPLE. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 470 WITNESS: BACK ON THE RECORD. A. OKAY, SO, ANYWAYS, ES&P HELPED US WITH THIS. AND ALSO WITH THE -- I THINK THEY MAY HAVE MADE THE ARRANGEMENTS, THE ORIGINAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR -- OR THEY MAY HAVE HAD A HELICOPTER, AS I MENTIONED HERE, BECAUSE THE AREA WAS SO DRY WE COULD BARELY MOVE TO CERTAIN PORTIONS OF THIS. Q. SAM JOHNSON WENT ON THE FIRST TRIP WITH YOU. YOU AND CHRIS CRAFT AND SAM JOHNSON AND A HELICOPTER PILOT -- IS THAT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE FIRST HELICOPTER TRIP? A. I BELIEVE SO. I -- THAT SOUNDS REASONABLE. I CAN'T QUITE REMEMBER. Q. OKAY. THE SECOND TRIP -- DID MR. LARSON GO WITH YOU? A. HE MAY VERY WELL HAVE. Q. AND WAS HE DOING THE VEGETATION WORK AT THAT TIME? A. NO, NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. AT LEAST, HE DIDN'T DO IT ON THAT TRIP. HE MAY HAVE BEEN DOING IT. Q. DID MR. DAVIS GO WITH YOU? A. NOW, THERE ARE SEVERAL DAVISES. YOU TALKING ABOUT STEVE DAVIS OR JOHN DAVIS? Q. JOHN DAVIS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 471 A. JOHN DAVIS WAS ALONG ON ONE OF THE EARLY TRIPS, I REMEMBER, BECAUSE -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH -- IF HE WAS IN THAT ONE OR NOT. I REMEMBER ONE HELICOPTER TRIP THAT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT TRIP BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WERE CRAMMED IN AND CHRIS CRAFT GOT ILL, AND HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE. AND--- Q. WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THAT TRIP. A. --- AND HE -- AND WE HAD TO MAKE EMERGENCY PROCEDURES. Q. OUT THE WINDOW? A. NO. WE LANDED. I THINK WE MADE IT. WE DID. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, YOU THINK -- HOW MANY EARLY TRIPS WERE THERE? A. THERE -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN, "HOW MANY EARLY TRIPS." I MEAN--- Q. WHEN YOU SAID IN ONE OF THE EARLY TRIPS, AND I WAS JUST WONDERING--- A. OH. Q. ---HOW MANY EARLY TRIPS WERE THERE? A. WE HAD ONLY--- Q. THESE ARE LIKE RECONNAISSANCE, ALMOST, TRIPS. A. RECONNAISSANCE. WELL, THERE WAS ONLY -- TO MY KNOWLEDGE -- ONE OR TWO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 472 Q. ALL RIGHT. WEFVE GONE UP -- SO WE WENT ON ONE WITH SAM JOHNSON. NOW, WE'RE GOING ON ONE POSSIBLY WITH JOHN DAVIS AND MR. LARSON AND CHRIS CRAFT AND YOURSELF AND THE HELICOPTER PILOT. THAT'S BEGINNING TO SOUND PRETTY CROWDED. WAS IT A FOUR-PERSON HELICOPTER, OR SIX? COULD HAVE BEEN--- A. IT COULD -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIX. Q. A LONG RANGER? A. COULD HAVE BEEN A LONG RANGER. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. A. WHEN YOU SAID "EARLY," I WASN'T SURE, BECAUSE I CONSIDER ALL OF THESE EARLY TRIPS BECAUSE WHEN WE WERE TAKING THEM, IT WAS EARLY IN THE PROJECT, SO--- Q. SURE, SURE. DID MR. EARL GO ON ANY OF THESE TRIPS WITH YOU? A. LATER ON, WE HAD -- WHEN WE WERE ESTABLISHING SOME OF OUR SAMPLINGS, WE HAD, I GUESS, THE -- AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE CHRONOLOGY EXACTLY, BECAUSE WE'VE GONE THROUGH SORT OF THE FIRST TWO. AND, THEN, AFTER THAT, WE WERE ON OUR OWN. WE BASICALLY--- Q. RIGHT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 473 A. --- TOOK OFF AND--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND MADE OUR OWN ARRANGEMENTS AND STARTED TO DO OUR OWN ANALYSIS. WE SIMPLY WERE IN THE FIELD WAY TOO MUCH AND HAD TOO MANY THINGS. WE NEEDED TO HAVE OUR OWN OPERATING BASE. SO, DR. CRAFT AND I WERE SAMPLING. AND I FORGET, AT SOME POINT, WE WERE CONTACTED. I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER BY WHO, BUT THEY WANTED TO BASICALLY COME ALONG AND SEE IF THEY COULD -- MAYBE ED BARBER CALLED -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO IT WAS -- OR SOMEBODY -- AND SAID WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER WHO THE CONTACT PERSON WAS -- COULD THEY GO ON A TOUR AND SEE WHAT WE WERE DOING. Q. THAT WAS MR. EARL. A. MR. -- WHO CALLED ME? I'M NOT SURE WHO--- Q. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. WHO WENT WITH YOU? A. YES. HE--- Q. THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING. A. YES. HE -- ON ONE OF THE TRIPS, HE DEFINITELY WENT WITH US. YES, THAT IS CORRECT. Q. OKAY. DID DR. PATRICK GO ON ONE OF THESE EARLY TRIPS WITH YOU? A. YEAH, I BELIEVE HE WAS ON THE SAME TRIP. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 474 Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF DR. PATRICK GOING WITH YOU ON THAT EARLY TRIP? A. I THINK AS MUCH FOR HIM WAS CURIOSITY TO SEE WHAT WE WERE DOING. HE WAS QUITE INTERESTED. AND I THINK AT THAT TIME THEY WERE JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHAT WE WERE GOING TO SET UP AND WHAT WE WERE GOING TO DO. SO, AS DR. CRAFT HAS ALLUDED TO IN HIS DEPOSITION, I BELIEVE, INCORRECTLY, HE AND I BOTH COLLECTED SAMPLES THAT TRIP. I BELIEVE HE TOOK FULL CREDIT FOR THE SAMPLING. Q. DID HE INDICATE THAT HE WAS THE ONLY WORKER BEE ON THE TRIP? A. I THINK HE MADE THAT AS AN INCORRECT STATEMENT. BUT, ANYWAYS, WE BOTH COLLECTED SAMPLES. AND, SO, AS WE WOULD GO FROM PLACE TO PLACE, THAT BASICALLY WE WOULD JUST LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE WANDERING AROUND LOOKING AT THINGS. SO, THERE WAS LITERALLY -- IT WAS PRETTY MUCH A WORK TRIP FOR CHRIS AND I. WE WERE COLLECTING SAMPLES. Q. ALL RIGHT. WAS DR. PATRICK, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, AT THAT TIME A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. I DO NOT KNOW IF HE WAS A CONSULTANT AT THAT TIME. HE MAY HAVE -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED -- I DO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 475 NOT KNOW WHETHER HE HAD ANY FORMAL -- I DO NOT KNOW WHEN HE WAS FORMALLY -- I DON'T KNOW HIS ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I REALLY DON'T. Q. WERE YOU ALREADY A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AT THAT TIME? A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO AT THAT TIME. MS. PONZOLI: ONE SECOND. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WAS THAT MID-1989 THAT THIS TRIP WAS TAKEN? A. I BELIEVE SO. Q. DR. RICHARDSON, I HAVE A PRIVILEGED LIST THAT'S BEEN PRODUCED BY MR. BURGESS. MS. PONZOLI: WHY DON'T YOU GIVE ME THOSE? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I GUESS WE CAN ATTACH THIS TO THE DEPOSITION. I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY IT, BUT IT'S A PLEADING IN THE CASE, OR IT'S AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT. I'D LIKE TO POINT YOU TO THE FIRST ENTRY ON THIS PRIVILEGED LIST PROVIDED BY MR. BURGESS TO THE UNITED STATES. AND IT INDICATES ON THIS PRIVILEGE LIST THAT THEY'RE HANDWRITTEN NOTES OF YOURS FROM A MEETING WITH COUNSEL REGARDING LITIGATION DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 476 ISSUES, 1/12/89. SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WERE YOU A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AT THIS TIME? A. IT WOULD APPEAR SO FROM THIS INFORMATION. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, REALLY, FROM YOUR EARLIEST FORAYS INTO THE EVERGLADES, YOU WERE ALREADY A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? MR. BURGESS: WELL, LET ME JUST STATE THAT I DID DO THIS PRIVILEGE LIST. I DID FORMULATE THIS PRIVILEGE LIST. I DID DECIDE THAT THAT DOCUMENT WAS PRIVILEGED. I WILL REVIEW THE DOCUMENT IN LIGHT OF THIS TESTIMONY TODAY. PERHAPS THERE IS SOME WAY TO NAIL DOWN WHEN DR. RICHARDSON, IN FACT, BECAME A CONSULTANT TO THE LEAGUE. BUT THIS WAS MY DECISION, NOT HIS. I DON'T THINK YOU CAN PREDICATE WHEN HE DID BECOME OR DID NOT BECOME A CONSULTANT BY THIS DATE ON THIS DOCUMENT. BUT I'LL EXAMINE IT. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. MR. REID: THAT'S THREE YEARS AGO TODAY. MS. PONZOLI: THE DAY AFTER YOUR BIRTHDAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 477 MR. REID: RIGHT. MR. McCAUGHAN: THEY DIDN'T KNOW. THEY FORGOT THAT THEN. MR. NEARHOOF: THAT'S FOUR YEARS AGO. WITNESS: FOUR YEARS AGO. MR. REID: OH, IT'S '93. THAT'S RIGHT. TIME FLIES. MS. PONZOLI: SHAVING YEARS ALREADY, ARE YOU? ALL RIGHT. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID MR. DAVIS AND/OR MR. LARSON MORE OR LESS SHOW YOU AROUND WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A OR THE EVERGLADES -- ORIENT YOU TO THE EVERGLADES? WITNESS: MR. DAVIS OR MR. LARSON? MR. BURGESS: DR. DAVIS. MS. PONZOLI: RIGHT. DR. DAVIS. I APOLOGIZE. A. I DON'T BELIEVE DR. DAVIS EVER DID. I BELIEVE MR. LARSON, IN THE HELICOPTER TRIPS, MAY HAVE SHOWN US. HE WAS MORE FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE STRUCTURES. WE WANTED TO GET A HANDLE ON SOME OF THE STRUCTURES. AND SO HE WAS ABLE TO ORIENT US TOWARDS THE STRUCTURES IN THE VARIOUS PUMPING STATIONS. MY INITIAL SORT OF ECOLOGICAL SURVEY OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 478 THE AREA WAS REALLY BENEFITTED BY SAMMY TIGERTAIL, WHO WAS A MICCOSUKEE INDIAN, IN TERMS--- Q. WHEN--- A. --- TERMS OF -- HE WAS ACTUALLY THE BOAT -- AIRBOAT DRIVER ON SEVERAL OF THE TRIPS. ARE YOU SMILING AT SAMMY TIGERTAIL? Q. WHEN IN 189 DID MR. TIGERTAIL TAKE YOU AROUND THE EVERGLADES? (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. SAMMY TOOK ME AROUND, THE FIRST TRIP, WITH SAM JOHNSON. ON OUR VERY FIRST TRIP, HE WAS THE GUIDE, AND ALSO SAM JOHNSON, TO SOME DEGREE, AND THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER PERSON FROM ES&P. I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO THAT WAS. BUT -- AND THERE WERE DR. CRAFT AND MYSELF. AND SO WE HAD -- YOU KNOW, WE HAD SEVERAL PEOPLE TAKE US AROUND. LARSON PRIMARILY--- Q. THAT WAS THE FIRST TRIP MR. TIGERTAIL WENT AROUND WITH YOU? A. YES. YOU KNOW, HE WENT TO SEVERAL TRIPS. WE BASICALLY UTILIZED HIS SERVICES OVER SEVERAL TIME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 479 PERIODS BECAUSE OF HIS -- THE AIRBOAT, HIS ACCESS. I MEAN, THERE WAS NO PROBLEM TRAVELING WITH MR. TIGERTAIL. WE COULD GO PRETTY MUCH WHERE WE WANTED TO GO. NOBODY SEEMED TO BOTHER. THE INDIANS HAVE A VERY FREE REIN IN THOSE AREAS, SO THEY CAN GO PRETTY -- THEY KNOW THE AREA, THEY GO PRETTY MUCH WHERE THEY WANT TO GO AND NOBODY BOTHERS THEM. Q. OKAY. THIS WAS A TRIP WHERE YOU WENT BY HELICOPTER, AND THEN YOU GOT OUT AND WENT IN A AIRBOAT--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- ON A SECOND PART OF IT? A. WELL, I THINK, FIRST, WE WENT -- THE ONE TIME WE SIMPLY WENT STRICTLY BY AIRBOAT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. IN FACT, SEVERAL TIMES WE WENT STRICTLY BY AIRBOAT. BUT, THEN, THERE -- THE WATER GOT SO LOW WE HAD TO GO BY HELICOPTER. Q. RIGHT. OKAY. AND YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE TWO EXPERTS -- THAT YOU HAVE CONTACTED TWO EXPERTS ON AQUATIC PLANT CONTROL. WHO WERE THESE TWO EXPERTS? A. I'M SORRY. WHERE ARE WE NOW? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 480 Q. I'M SORRY. THE PARAGRAPH 4B. A. 4B? Q. YES, SIR. A. I CAN'T REMEMBER AT THIS STAGE. I THINK I TALKED TO -- AND I CAN'T BE POSITIVE -- I THINK I TALKED TO JOHN GRACE AT LSU. AND I CAN'T--- Q. IS HE THE ONE REFERRED TO IN 5-2, LSU, WETLAND SOILS GROUP? A. NO, NO, NO, NO. Q. OKAY. YOU THINK YOU TALKED TO JOHN GRACE? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE SECOND PERSON. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND THINK ABOUT THAT. I DONFT REMEMBER. Q. IS IT JIM GRACE? A. AH, JIM GRACE, YOU'RE CORRECT. Q. YEAH, OKAY. DO YOU RECALL, DR. RICHARDSON, WHEN YOU THINK YOU BECAME AN EXPERT? DO YOU HAVE A MENTAL RECOLLECTION OF WHEN YOU WERE HIRED AS A CONSULTANT FOR TliE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? YOU REMEMBER WE WERE SORTING THAT THROUGH? A. I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT RECOLLECTION, BECAUSE -- WHAT HAPPENED, IF YOU -- I WAS TRYING TO TELL YOU IS, THAT EARLY ON THAT THERE WERE SOME OF THESE I GUESS THE MEETINGS THAT I ATTENDED RELATED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 481 FIRST ONE I'D FORGOTTEN ABOUT WAS RELATED TO LITIGATION. I ATTENDED A COUPLE OF THOSE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND THE ESSENCE OF THOSE WAS RELATED TO WHAT I WOULD BE DOING FOR RESEARCH, BUT THERE WAS SOME LITIGATION, I GUESS, STUFF. IT WAS IN THE VERY EARLY STAGES RELATED TO THIS CASE -- SORT OF GENERAL INFORMATION. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. BUT IT BECAME VERY APPARENT VERY QUICKLY THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN THAT COMPONENT. GEORGE WEDGWORTH, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, STATED TO ME ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS -- AND THAT WAS THE WAY I WANTED IT -- THAT I WOULD NOT BECOME A LITIGATION EXPERT EARLY ON, AND THEY WOULD HAVE TO GO OTHER WAYS. SO, I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. EVEN THOUGH I ATTENDED ONE OR TWO OF THOSE EARLY MEETINGS, I CANNOT REMEMBER EXACTLY DOING MUCH OF ANYTHING, OTHER THAN LISTENING AND GIVING A LITTLE BIT 0F OVERVIEW WHERE WE WERE GOING. OKAY. WAS MR. WEDGWORTH IN ATTENDANCE AT THOSE MEETINGS? A. SINCE -- WELL, HE WOULD -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK MR. WEDGWORTH HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION OF HOW DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 482 SOME OF THIS SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE. I DON'T BELIEVE HE WAS IN TOO MANY OF THE MEETINGS THAT I--- Q. WAS MR. EARL IN ATTENDANCE AT THOSE MEETINGS? A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN. Q. WHO ELSE WAS AT THESE MEETINGS? WAS MR. DAVIS? A. I'M NOT SURE WHICH MEETINGS YOU'RE REFERRING TO, NOW. Q. DR. DAVIS. I'M SORRY. A. NO, BUT WHICH MEETINGS, I MEAN? Q. WELL, THESE EARLY LITIGATION MEETINGS. A. WELL, AS I SAID, I DID NOT ATTEND VERY MANY OF THESE. I MAY HAVE GONE TO ONE OR MAYBE TWO. Q. RIGHT. A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. Q. RIGHT. A. BUT--- Q. THAT'S OKAY. A. --- FROM THAT SINCE WE WERE JUST STARTING THE PROJECT, OR EARLY ON, THIS THING CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER WHERE THIS MEETING WAS, SO I CAN HARDLY REMEMBER WHO WAS AT THIS MEETING. WAS MR. -- WAS DR. DAVIS THERE, THOUGH, TO THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 483 BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION, AT ONE OR SEVERAL OF THEM? A. HE HAS BEEN AT SEVERAL THAT I HAVE BEEN AT, YES. BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER IF HE WAS AT THIS MEETING. I --- Q. AT THE EARLY ONES. A. --- I DON'T -- I DON'T EVEN--- Q. CAN YOU SEPARATE OUT THAT VERY FIRST MEETING IN YOUR MEMORY, DR. RICHARDSON? EVEN IF YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS, CAN YOU SEPARATE OUT SOME RECOLLECTION OF THE BODY OF PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE? A. I CANNOT. Q. YOU CANNOT? A. IN ALL HONESTY, I CANNOT. Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON? WAS MR. LARSON AT THAT MEETING? A. I DON'T KNOW. HE COULD HAVE BEEN. I DON'T REMEMBER, IN ALL HONESTY. Q. OKAY. HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK WERE AT THAT FIRST LITIGATION MEETING? A. SINCE I CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS -- MY RECOLLECTION ON SOME OF THESE MEETINGS, AND I WOULD SAY THE FIRST ONE OR TWO, AS I SAID, AND I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 484 CAN'T REMEMBER HOW -- SEE, I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS IN CLEWISTON OR WHERE IT WAS, SO I CAN'T -- I WOULD SAY AT LEAST ONE THING -- AT LEAST, IN THE EARLY MEETINGS, THERE WAS A MUCH SMALLER GROUP OF PEOPLE. I MEAN, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TWO OR THREE. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. Q. I'M WILLING TO BELIEVE THAT. EVERYTHING IN THIS CASE WAS SMALLER. BUT YOU HAD BEEN HIRED AS A CONSULTANT AT THAT TIME? A. AT THE TIME OF THIS MEETING? Q. YES, SIR. A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK MY FILES. THERE WAS SOME POINT IN WHICH -- I WAS NOT HIRED AS A LITIGATION PERSON AT THAT TIME; WAS NOT HIRED AS AN EXPERT AT THAT TIME FOR ANYTHING RELATED TO LITIGATION. FOR THE FIRST THREE-PLUS YEARS, I HAD LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO WITH LITIGATION. I WAS NOT PART OF THAT. Q. YOU WERE A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. CANE LEAGUE. Q. BUT YOU SAY THAT YOU JUST GAVE THEM ADVICE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. AND WE HAD -- AS I SAID BEFORE, GEORGE AND I HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS, AND I DID NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 485 WISH TO PARTICIPATE NOR DID I PARTICIPATE IN -- OTHER THAN SOME -- I GUESS , ON AN AS-NEED-TO-KNOW BASIS FOR SOME THINGS, I DID NOT I THINK, AS I SAID IN THIS FIRST MEETING, MAYBE WHICH I CAN'T REMEMBER MUCH ABOUT IT. I CAN'T REMEMBER EVEN WHO WAS THERE. THERE MAY HAVE -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY EVEN PLANNED AT THAT EARLY STAGE. BUT--- Q. WELL, I DIDN'T ASK YOU WHAT THEY PLANNED. I JUST ASKED YOU WHO WAS THERE. A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. BUT I WAS NOT--- Q. WERE THERE LAWYERS THERE? THERE MUST HAVE BEEN LAWYERS, IF IT WAS A LITIGATION MEETING. A. I ASSUME SO. Q. AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF THERE WERE LAWYERS THERE? A. WELL, OH, NO. I WOULD ASSUME THERE WERE SOME LAWYERS THERE. OBVIOUSLY, IF IT WAS RELATED TO LITIGATION, I ASSUME THERE WERE SOME LAWYERS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- BUT I WAS NOT -- AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER, IN ALL HONESTY, I TRIED TO KEEP THAT PRETTY CLEAR, THAT I DID NOT WANT TO BECOME INVOLVED WITH THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 486 COMPONENT OF IT. AND, AS I SAID, MR. WEDGWORTH HAD, AT THAT TIME, CONCURRED FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. Q. WHEN -- DO YOU REMEMBER TAKING THE NOTES? A. NO. Q. DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING THE NOTES WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH YOUR DOCUMENTS? A. NO. Q. WHO FOUND THE NOTES? A. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT MYSELF. I DID NOT HAVE -- SOME OF THOSE FILES, BECAUSE OF THE VOLUME OF MATERIAL, I DID NOT SIT DOWN AND GO THROUGH EVERY SEIEET OF PAPER. Q. SURE. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IN REGARD TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. WEDGWORTH AND HIS EFFORTS TO KEEP YOUR SCIENCE IN A CERTAIN POSTURE, FOR HOW LONG AFTER THE BEGINNING OF 1989 DID THAT GO ON? THERE HAD TO COME A SPLIT. THERE CAME A SPLIT AT SOME TIME, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT MR. WEDGWORTH LEFT THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND THERE WAS SOME INTERNAL DIVISION AT THAT POINT. WHEN DID--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- YOU BECOME AWARE OF CHANGES IN THE WAY THAT YOU WOULD BE HANDLED AND/OR THIS DIVISION OF THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 487 COOPERATIVE AND MR. WEDGWORTH FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. WHEN GEORGE LEFT THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, YOU ARE CORRECT, THERE WAS A DIFFERENT TENOR INTO THE ORGANIZATION. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN HE LEFT. I BELIEVE IT WAS IN f9O SOMETIME. Q. IN 1990? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS SOMETIME IN 1990. Q. OKAY. A. I THINK THAT'S RIGHT. Q. EARLY 190? A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN HE LEFT, BUT IT WAS -- THINK -- I BELIEVE IT WAS 190, I THINK. BUT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LEAGUE DID NOT CHANGE. I DISCUSSED THIS WITH ANDY RACKLEY AND WITH PHIL PARSONS AND SOME OTHER INDIVIDUALS. THIS MATTER WAS DISCUSSED IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT I WOULD BECOME INVOLVED WITH THE LITIGATION COMPONENT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. MY POSITION HAD NOT CHANGED ON THIS. THERE WERE INDIVIDUALS, I TliINK, IN THE ORGANIZATION WHO HAD DIFFERENT POSITIONS ON THIS IN TERMS OF MY INVOLVEMENT, WHETHER I SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T. SOME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 488 WERE STILL FOLLOWING GEORGE'S LINE. I DON'T HAVE THE SPECIFICS OF WHO WAS WHAT. BUT, ANYWAYS, WE CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSIONS FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS, THAT I WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE IN A DIRECT WAY WITH THE LITIGATION OTHER THAN THROUGH THE LEAGUE IN A -- AN ADVISORY ROLE. NOW, THERE MAY BE ONE EXCEPTION TO THAT. Q. WHO'S THE ONE EXCEPTION? A. I BELIEVE WHEN I WROTE A REVIEW RELATED TO WALKER'S PIECE OF INFORMATION, AND SOME OTHER -- I THINK A MEETING OR TWO RELATED TO THAT. BUT, ESSENTIALLY, I STILL--- Q. SO, YOU DID CONTINUE TO ATTEND LITIGATION MEETINGS FROM TIME TO TIME? A. VERY FEW. Q. MAYBE TWO TIMES A YEAR? A. AT MOST, TO MY RECOLLECTION. Q. WHEN, IN YOUR MIND, DID YOU BECOME A LITIGATION EXPERT? A. THAT WAS DISCUSSED THIS LAST YEAR. AGAIN, THERE WAS SOME QUESTION OF -- I, OBVIOUSLY, WAS TRYING TO DO AS MUCH RESEARCH AS POSSIBLE AND KEEP MY HEAD LOW IN THIS PARTICULAR OPERATION. AND SINCE THE INFORMATION WAS PUBLIC, AND SINCE THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 489 INFORMATION WAS OF VALUE TO THIS CASE, IT BECAME APPARENT THAT, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, THIS WAS NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE -- SO CAME TO SOME AGREEMENT ON THAT. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN THE DATE WAS, BUT I THINK IT WAS THIS LAST YEAR. Q. BUT YOUR CONTRACT DIDN'T CHANGE? I MEAN, YOUR CONTRACT, CONSULTING FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, JUST CONTINUED ON AN HOURLY, DAILY BASIS--- A. ON A PROJECT--- Q. --- THAT IT ALWAYS HAD? A. --- PER-PROJECT BASIS, WHATEVER THEY ASKED ME TO DO IN TERMS THAT WE CONTINUE TO DO SOME OF THAT, YEAH. Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU EVER DISCUSS MR. WEDGWORTH'S DEPARTURE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND, I GUESS TO SOME EXTENT, A DISASSOCIATION, I WOULD ASSUME, WITH MR. WEDGWORTH -- WITH HIM PERSONALLY? A. HIS LEAVING THE LEAGUE? Q. WELL, I MEAN, DID YOU SPEAK WITH MR. WEDGWORTH ON A CONTINUING BASIS ABOUT YOUR RESEARCH WHILE HE WAS STILL WITH THE LEAGUE? A. OH, YES. FROM TIME TO TIME, I WOULD -- HE WOULD CALL ME UP AND SAY, HOW ARE THINGS, AND HOW ARE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 490 THINGS GOING--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND WHEN HE WAS WITH THE LEAGUE AT THE EQC, HE WOULD ATTEND THOSE MEETINGS AND--- Q. WASN'T HE CHAIRMAN OF THE EQC? A. HE WAS CHAIRMAN. Q. RIGHT. A. AND MR. WEDGWORTH COMES TO ALMOST ALL PUBLIC PRESENTATIONS. I DON'T THINK THAT I HAVE BEEN IN SOUTH FLORIDA AT A DISTRICT MEETING OR A PUBLIC MEETING THAT HE HAS NOT ATTENDED. SO HE WOULD JUST -- HE WOULD ALWAYS -- HE WAS VERY CORDIAL, SAY HI AFTERWARDS AND TALK. SO WE HAVE KEPT IN SOME CONTACT. Q. BUT DID THE CONTACT BREAK TO SOME EXTENT WHEN HE LEFT THE LEAGUE? A. WELL, I HAD LESS CONTACT WITH HIM, YES. I HAD LESS CONTACT WITH HIM, ALTHOUGH, HE -- I HAD LESS CONTACT WITH HIM. I WOULDN'T SEE HIM IN THAT CAPACITY. BUT HE--- UH-HUH (YES). SO I TAKE IT YOU TWO NEVER DISCUSSED THIS BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU BY TELEPHONE OR OTHERWISE? A. DISCUSSED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 491 Q. THE FACT THAT YOU WOULD NOT CONTINUE IN THAT MORE INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WHERE HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY COMMITTEE AND YOU WERE DOING GRANT RESEARCH UNDER THAT COMMITTEE. YOU NEVER DISCUSSED THAT WITH HIM? A. MAYBE YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION IN TERMS OF -- MAYBE -- DID WE DISCUSS -- WELL, GIVE ME THE QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE. MAYBE I'LL -- I'LL TRY TO--- Q. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE TRICKY. I JUST--- A. NO, NO. I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. Q. --- I JUST -- IT JUST SEEMED TO ME THERE WAS A WORKING RELATIONSHIP FOR A PERIOD OF TIME THAT BROKE OFF, TO SOME EXTENT. AND MAYBE TO SOME EXTENT REESTABLISH ITSELF DOWNSTREAM. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I WOULD SAY THAT'S ACCURATE. HE IS THE HEAD OF THE CO-OP. AND, SO, HE BASICALLY -- WE HAD CONTACTS UNDER HIS, I GUESS, CHAIRMANSHIP OR WHATEVER HIS -- PRESIDENCY OF THE CO-OP. WE'D HAVE THAT. Q. WELL, I THINK WHAT I'M CONFUSED ABOUT IS, IS THAT YOU NEVER DISCUSSED THIS WITH MR. WEDGWORTH. YOU HAVEN'T SAID YOU NEVER DISCUSSED IT, BUT--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 492 A. WHEN YOU -- WELL, "THIS" -- THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CLARIFY. Q. THE "THIS" IS THE LEAVING OF THE LEAGUE AND THE CEASING TO BE CHAIRMAN OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY--- A. AH, YES. Q. --- COMMITTEE AND THE CEASING TO HAVE A--- A. YES. Q. --- CONTINUING RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU--- A. YES, YES. Q. --- AND IT'S MY IMPRESSION THAT--- A. YES. Q. --- MR. WEDGWORTH IS A VERY COURTEOUS PERSON--- A. YES. Q. --- AND WOULD HAVE PROBABLY DISCUSSED IT AT SOME LEVEL WITH YOU AT SOME POINT. A. THAT'S TRUE. Q. OKAY. WHEN DID THAT CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE? A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE OF THAT CONVERSATION, OBVIOUSLY. I DON'T REMEMBER -- I DON'T--- Q. OKAY. A. --- REMEMBER WHEN HE LEFT BECAUSE I COULDNFT REMEMBER--- Q. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 493 A. OKAY. WE HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- PASSING IN THE HALLWAY; HE MAY HAVE CALLED ME. I CAN'T REMEMBER. ONE, I GUESS, HE TOLD ME HE WAS LEAVING THE LEAGUE, AND I WAS -- I WAS AWARE OF THE FACT HE HAD BEEN HAVING SOME DIFFICULTIES WITH HIS HEART, AND HE TOLD ME SOMETHING RELATED TO, I BELIEVE -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE DETAILS -- RELATED TO HIS HEALTH, AND THAT WAS ONE AVENUE. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THE SPECIFIC DETAILS. HE DIDN'T GO INTO GREAT DETAIL ON THAT. AND, THEN, HE WAS STEPPING ASIDE FROM THAT. AND I BELIEVE HE ALSO MENTIONED THAT HE WOULD BE DOING MORE WORK IN THE FUTURE STRICTLY THROUGH THE CO-OP AND THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THE RELATIONSHIP, IF WE COULD, THROUGH THE CO-OP. Q. SO, THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT MR. WEDGWORTH GAVE YOU FOR HIS LEAVING WAS REALLY A HEALTH-RELATED EXPLANATION? A. WELL, HE ALSO MENTIONED THE FACT THAT HE DID NOT LIKE ALL THESE LEGAL ACTIVITIES. HE HAS A FAIRLY HIGH DISDAIN FOR LAWYERS. FOLLOWING UP ON THAT, WHAT WERE THE LEGAL ACTIVITIES THAT HE DID NOT LIKE FROM THESE PEOPLE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 494 HE DISDAINED? A. HE DID NOT REALLY ELABORATE. HE SAID IT WAS BECOMING A VERY CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THAT HE THOUGHT COULD BE SETTLED BY SCIENCE. I THINK GEORGE HAS ALWAYS FELT THAT SCIENCE, IF BROUGHT TO BEAR -- THE RIGHT SCIENCE, COULD ANSWER SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS, BUT THAT THE LEGAL PROFESSION PRIMARILY OBFUSCATED THE ISSUE. AND THAT, IN FACT, AS FAR AS HE WAS CONCERNED, I THINK, IS -- ABOUT THE ONLY OTHER COMMENT I HEARD HIM EVER MAKE RELATED TO THAT WAS THAT LAWYERS PRIMARILY TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN'T DO AND WHY THIS AND BASICALLY DELAY THINGS FOR AD INFINITUM, AND HE WAS NOT PARTICULARLY PLEASED BY THAT. Q. DID HE EVER TIE THAT TO ANY PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS OR JUST THE GENERIC CLASS OF LAWYERS? A. MOSTLY AS -- I THINK AS HE PUTS IT, AS A CLASS. I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH, BUT I BELIEVE AS A GENERAL CLASS. Q. OKAY. IS THAT ABOUT THE EXTENT OF YOUR CONVERSATION? A. ON THAT MATTER, YES. Q. OKAY. YOU SAY THAT THE TENOR, OR THE TONE OF THE LEAGUE CHANGED AFTER MR. WEDGWORTH AND THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 495 COOPERATIVE LEFT AND HE NO LONGER WAS HEAD OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY COMMITTEE. HOW DID IT CHANGE? A. WELL, WE HAD A NEW PERSON AS THE HEAD OF IT. AND I THINK THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE RESEARCH ACTIVITIES THAT WOULD BE VIEWED BY THAT GROUP CHANGED. Q. OKAY. WHO BECAME HEAD AFTER MR. WEDGWORTH? A. I BELIEVE ONE OF THE FANJUL. I THINK IT'S ALEX OR--- Q. OKAY. AND, THEN, HOW DID THE RESEARCH CHANGE? A. MY RESEARCH DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL. BASICALLY, THEY'VE KEPT PRETTY MUCH AN OFF-HANDS POLICY OR HANDS-OFF POLICY ON MY RESEARCH--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- BUT BASICALLY A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING OF THAT RESEARCH. Q. OH, OKAY. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO MISQUOTE YOU. HOW DID THE UNDERSTANDING CHANGE? A. WELL, ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT FROM SOME EARLY PRESENTATIONS AT THE EQC AS TO WHAT WE WERE DOING TO LATER PRESENTATIONS, THE QUESTIONS WERE OF A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING LEVEL. AND I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE PRIMARY AREAS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 496 AND, ALSO, I THINK AT THAT TIME, THERE WAS LESS INTEREST IN THE RESEARCH AND MORE INTEREST IN -- SINCE MY WORK WAS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO LITIGATION -- MORE INTEREST IN, AT THAT TIME, OTHER TYPES OF RESEARCH. SO I STARTED HAVING LESS CONTACT WITH EQC. Q. WHEN YOU SAY THERE WAS A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING LEVEL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? A. GEORGE ASKED VERY GOOD, TOUGH QUESTIONS. HE UNDERSTOOD HOW THINGS WORK, AND--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---HAS A BACKGROUND AS A SOILS PERSON AND AS AN AGRONOMIST, AND SO HAS AN -- AND HAS READ EXTENSIVELY. SO, HE UNDERSTANDS THE SYSTEM QUITE WELL. SO, HE WOULD ASK A NUMBER OF VERY GOOD QUESTIONS. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND AS WERE SOME OTHER INDIVIDUALS THERE. BUT I'M PRINCIPALS WHO RUN THE EQC, SAYING IN TERMS OF THE LET'S SAY THAT MR. FANJUL DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME UNDERSTANDING OF ECOSYSTEMS AND ENVIRONMENTS. Q. WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE. A. YES. Q. MR. WEDGWORTH HAD BEEN RAISED THERE AND--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 497 A. YES, HE -- RAISED THERE; HE GREW UP -- YES. Q. SURE, SURE. ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU INVITED TO LESS EQC MEETINGS FROM THAT POINT ON? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. BEFORE THEN, YOU HAD GONE HOW OFTEN? A. NOT KEEPING TRACK OF THEM, I WOULD SAY MAYBE I WAS ATTENDING THREE PER YEAR, MAYBE FOUR. I'M NOT SURE. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, IT'S HARD TO SAY BECAUSE, AS I SAID, I DON'T KEEP TRACK. I WOULD BE IN SOUTH FLORIDA, SO THERE WOULD BE A MEETING AND THEY WOULD CALL AND SAY, ARE YOU GOING TO BE HERE. WOULD YOU COME FOR AN HOUR AND EXPLAIN WHERE YOU ARE AT THIS POINT, OR SOMETHING. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. SO, IT HAS DROPPED OFF IN NUMBER. I CAN'T GIVE YOU THE EXACT NUMBER. IT MAY BE TWO PER YEAR. IT MAY BE THREE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. BUT AT ONE POINT, THERE WAS -- WHEN GEORGE AND WE -- STARTING EARLY AND WHEN WE WERE WORKING, THERE SEEMED TO BE MORE OF THOSE EARLY ON THAN THERE WERE LATER. THEY BECAME, I THINK, VERY BUSY WITH OTHER ACTIVITIES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 498 Q. WERE THESE OTHER RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT THEY WERE DOING? A. THAT ONE WAS MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I WAS IN THE HALLWAY. Q. WELL, NOW, DID THAT BECOME A PROCEDURE, ONCE THERE WAS THE SHIFT IN THE EQC, THE HALLWAY BUSINESS -- OR HAD THAT EXISTED PRIOR TO THE CHANGE IN THE CHAIRMANSHIP? A. I AM -- NO. WHEN -- I THINK THE VERY FIRST TIME I WENT TO EQC, I WAS LEFT STANDING IN THE HALLWAY FOR A WHILE BECAUSE THEY WERE DISCUSSING BUSINESS MATTERS. THEY DIDN'T KNOW ME, AND I WAS INVITED IN FOR MY TIME PERIOD AND I LEFT. Q. OKAY. A. AND SO THAT'S A -- I THINK IT'S A STANDARD PROCEDURE. Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S--- A. THEY PROVIDE NO CHAIRS, BY THE WAY. Q. I ASSUMED THAT. NOW, I THOUGHT MY EMPLOYER WAS BAD. RICHARDSON NUMBER 8 -- LET'S GO TO PAGE NUMBER 2. A. WHICH DOCUMENT ARE WE ON, WHICH ONE ARE WE ON, NOW? Q. RICHARDSON NUMBER 8, PAGE NUMBER 2. YOU'RE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 499 TALKING ABOUT PHASE II WILL INCLUDE A COMPREHENSIVE GIS ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION, SOIL NUTRIENT SORPTION CAPACITY, CATTAIL MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES, AND PEAT ACCRETION RATES AS EFFECTUATED BY NUTRIENT INPUTS. IS THIS THE LANDSCAPE BUSINESS THAT YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT TODAY? IS THIS WHAT'S GOING ON? A. NO. Q. THIS WAS SOMETHING DIFFERENT? A. YES. REMEMBER--- Q. DID YOU DO THIS? A. NO. Q. THIS WAS NEVER DONE? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. WHY? A. WE -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, WITH PHASE II, WHICH ACTUALLY TURNED OUT, MY RECOLLECTION, TO BE THE FIRST EPD PROPOSAL, HAD A FAIRLY EXTENSIVE CATTAIL EXPANSION. WELL, WHAT IS LISTED THERE AS ONE OF OUR GOALS BECAUSE, EVEN THOUGH I AT THE TIME DIDN'T THINK CATTAILS -- CATTAIL EXPANSION WAS THE KEY ISSUE, AFTER MY HALF A YEAR OF MOVING THROUGH THE EVERGLADES, WHEN THAT WAS PRESENTED TO THE -- WHEN THAT PROPOSAL WAS PRESENTED TO, I BELIEVE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 500 THE EPD, THAT'S WHEN TOM MacVICAR MADE HIS STATEMENTS REGARDING, I BELIEVE -- I DON'T WANT TO MISQUOTE HIM -- BUT IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR IN MY MIND THAT THE CATTAIL ISSUE WAS NOT -- THIS WAS NOT THE PUBLIC ENTITY AND THIS WAS NOT THE CORRECT USE AND THAT THE DISTRICT DID NOT FEEL CATTAILS WERE THE PROBLEM AT THE TIME. AND SO THAT PARTICULAR COMPONENT -- THE GIS -- WHICH I THOUGHT WAS IMPORTANT TO DO, AND THAT THAT WAS NOT DONE. Q. THAT WAS THE -- THAT WAS -- IS THAT YOUR FIRST PROPOSAL -- EPD, FIRST PROPOSAL--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- IN 1990? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. AND YOU -- IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY THAT BASICALLY IT WAS MR. MacVICAR WHO DEEP-SIXED THAT? A. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION OF THAT, YES, THAT AT THAT PARTICULAR MEETING, IT WAS -- THERE WERE SOME VERY STRONG STATEMENTS MADE ON THAT. AND ALSO I THINK IN THAT PROPOSAL, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WE HAD PROPOSED TO STUDY THE HOLEYLAND. AND WE HAD STARTED ACTUALLY UNDER THE PILOT STUDY TO LOOK AT PIECES OF THE HOLEYLAND. WE HAD ACTUALLY TAKEN A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 501 FEW SAMPLES IN THE HOLEYLAND, AND IT WAS ALSO MADE VERY CLEAR TO ME AT THAT TIME THAT WE DID NOT WANT THE HOLEYLAND STUDIED. Q. WELL, NOW, WAS MR. MacVICAR DIRECTING YOUR RESEARCH OR WAS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT AND MR. WEDGWORTH AND/OR MR. FANJUL AND THAT COMMITTEE? A. NO. MR. BURGESS: WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. Q. I MEAN, WHO WAS MAKING THE DECISIONS? MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I'M SORRY. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. IN TERMS OF ACTUAL WHAT'S DONE, I MADE THE DECISIONS. BUT, IN TERMS OF PRESENTING MY PROPOSAL, I WROTE MY PROPOSAL AT -- THAT WAS THE FIRST FORMAL MEETING OF THE EPD. YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THAT WAS A NEW ENTITY, A NEW STATE BODY. AND, AT THAT POINT, THE THERE WAS A BOARD--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND GEORGE WEDGWORTH WASN'T ON THAT BOARD, NOR DID HE HAVE REPRESENTATIVES ON THAT BOARD, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. THERE WERE MEMBERS. THERE WERE APPOINTED MEMBERS. I BELIEVE ART KIRSTEIN WAS THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 502 HEAD OF THAT BOARD, I BELIEVE. Q. RIGHT. A. BUT THAT BOARD, AT THAT FIRST MEETING, WHEN WE MADE -- WHEN I MADE MY PRESENTATION, ESSENTIALLY, TOM MacVICAR SAT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT BOARD AT THE TOP OF THE TABLE AND SAID THAT HE FELT THAT THIS PROPOSAL WAS PLACING WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON CATTAILS AND THE HOLEYLAND. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION. Q. OKAY. WHAT -- YOU KNOW WHAT I HAVEN'T COVERED WITH YOU IS HOW WE GET FROM THE EQC AND THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE OVER TO THE EPD--- A. WELL--- Q. --- YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. MR. BURGESS: IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION. IS THAT A QUESTION? MS. PONZOLI: NO, IT PROBABLY WASN'T A QUESTION, MR. BURGESS. I CAN FRAME ONE, THOUGH, EVEN AT THIS HOUR. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU WERE FIRST EMPLOYED BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IS THAT RIGHT? A. I HAVE -- DUKE UNIVERSITY HAD A CONTRACT WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. DUKE UNIVERSITY. ALL RIGHT. THEN, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 503 SUBSEQUENTLY, YOUR RESEARCH CAME TO BE FUNDED BY THE EPD? A. THAT IS CORRECT. Q. AND I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT MR. WEDGWORTH IS THE ONE WHO SET UP THE EPD? A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE EPD CAME TO BE FORMED? A. WELL, I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL THE INTRICACIES, BUT IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT IT WENT THROUGH THE STATE LEGISLATURE IN FLORIDA, AND THAT IT WAS--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE AND PUT INTO AS A PUBLIC SUNSHINE-LAWED ENTITY FOR ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH. Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHO THE MAIN PEOPLE IN THE AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY WERE WHO PROMOTED THIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT OR EVERGLADES PROTECTION DISTRICT? A. I HAD HEARD THAT THERE WAS THIS GROUP THAT DID IT, BUT I WAS NOT FAMILIAR I WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH THIS -- ANY OF THAT WORK. SO I DON'T -- CAN'T SAY WHO DID WHAT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 504 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE WERE? DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHO THE PEOPLE WERE? A. WELL, I ASSUME THEY WERE PEOPLE RELATED TO THE INDUSTRY, BUT I DON'T KNOW SPECIFICALLY WHO WENT, WHO WROTE, WHO DID, WHO DRAFTED. Q. OKAY. SURE. A. I DON'T KNOW. Q. HOW DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOUR WORK SHOULD BE DONE THROUGH THE EPD, AS OPPOSED TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? WHEN DID THAT IDEA FIRST EMERGE? DID SOMEONE COME TO YOU AND SUGGEST IT, OR DID YOU SUGGEST IT TO THEM? I MEAN, HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT? A. I BELIEVE ED BARBER TOLD ME THAT THERE WOULD BE A NEW ENTITY -- A PUBLIC ENTITY THAT I SHOULD BE VERY HAPPY WITH, THAT I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING IN THE FUTURE TO APPLY TO THAT WOULD BE -- WOULD HAVE ALL OF THE ASPECTS THAT I HAD BEEN WANTING IN TERMS OF MAINTAINING A GRANT, AN INDEPENDENCE, AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. THAT WAS THE -- THIS NEW ENTITY. AND THAT, IN FACT, THE LEAGUE WOULD NO LONGER DO THIS TYPE OF WORK. THEY WERE MOVING INTO OTHER ACTIVITIES, AND THAT I SHOULD APPLY A GRANT THROUGH THE EPD. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 505 Q. OKAY. BUT YOU DID CONTINUE THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS TIME TO HAVE THIS SEPARATE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WHEREBY YOU RECEIVED MONIES FOR DOING VARIOUS TASKS? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. THAT BEGAN IN '89 AND HAS CONTINUED THROUGH THE PRESENT? A. TO BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YES. Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN DID THIS SHIFT OCCUR? DO YOU REMEMBER? A. WHICH SHIFT? Q. FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE TO THE EPD. A. I BELIEVE THAT TOOK PLACE, LIKE WELL, THE FIRST FUNDING FOR THE EPD TOOK PLACE I BELIEVE WAS APPROVED IN JANUARY OF '90. Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU SUBMITTED YOUR PROPOSAL? A. OBVIOUSLY, SOMETIME IN THE FALL OF '89. Q. HOW OFTEN DID THE EPD MEET? A. IT USUALLY MEETS, IN MY UNDERSTANDING, ONCE A MONTH. Q. IT MET ON A MONTHLY BASIS? OKAY. LET ME SHOW YOU AN EXHIBIT OF AN EPD MEETING THAT YOU'RE MENTIONED AT. I THINK YOU HAD COPIES OF THIS IN YOUR FILES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 506 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS DOCUMENT? CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. GIVE ME A MOMENT TO PLEASE--- (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. YES, THIS APPEARS TO BE ABOUT THE RIGHT TIME IN RELATIONSHIP TO -- AS I THINK I JUST MENTIONED EARLIER, THE PROPOSAL WAS SUBMITTED SOMETIME IN THE FALL OF '89. Q. OKAY. WAS THIS THE MEETING AT WHICH YOU BELIEVE MR. MacVICAR INDICATED HE WASN'T INTERESTED IN CATTAILS OR THE DISTRICT WASN'T INTERESTED IN CATTAILS? YOU WERE AT THE MEETING WHERE MR. MacVICAR SAID, WE DO NOT CONSIDER CATTAILS A PROBLEM. IS THAT RIGHT? A. I WAS AT THAT MEETING. AND, AS I SAID, I'M NOT SURE THAT'S THE EXACT PHRASEOLOGY. I BELIEVE -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE ANY WRITTEN NOTES ON THAT. MY RECOLLECTION IS, I DIDN'T SAY HE SAID IT WAS NO PROBLEM. I THINK HE SAID THERE WAS AN OVEREMPHASIS IN THIS PROPOSAL TO STUDY CATTAILS, AND HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE EMPHASIS ON THAT. DID HE ACTUALLY SEE YOUR PROPOSAL TO THE EPD? HE ACTUALLY SAW THE ONE YOU WERE SUBMITTING? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 507 A. I'M QUITE SURE HE DID. I CAN'T SWEAR TO THAT. I MEAN--- Q. OKAY. A. --- HE SEEMED TO ASK QUESTIONS RELATED TO THAT, I BELIEVE. Q. I GUESS I'D LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR -- WHAT I BELIEVE IS YOUR PROPOSAL THAT YOU'RE REFERENCING. IT'S JANUARY 1, 1990, AMOUNT REQUESTED, SEVEN HUNDRED AND THIRTY-TWO THOUSAND, SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIVE ($732,705.00). IS THAT RIGHT? WELL, THIS IS AN EXPERT DOCUMENT YOUR LAWYER'S GOT TO--- A. THAT'S PRODUCIBLE FOR ME? Q. YEAH, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE ONE FOR YOU. MR. BURGESS: ARE WE GOING TO MARK THE MINUTES AS NINE, JUST SO WE STAY IN SUCCESSION? MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, LET'S MARK THE MINUTES AS NINE. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL SEEING THESE MINUTES, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I MAY HAVE. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THESE SINCE AND THIS IS A LONG TIME AGO. I MAY HAVE. I MEAN, I GET SO MUCH INFORMATION. Q. THESE WERE PRODUCED FROM AMONG YOUR DOCUMENTS, NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 5O8 FROM MR. BURGESS' FIRM, BUT AMONG THE DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY THE DUKE--- A. I UNDERSTAND. AND THEY--- Q. --- CENTER. A. --- I'M SORRY. TtiEY PROBABLY, AGAIN, CAME FROM LISA'S FILES. WifEN SHE HAS SOME FILES RELATED TO EPD, SHE FILES IT. AND SO I HAVEN'T -- YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT IT IN AGES. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S MARK THOSE AS RICHARDSON NUMBER NINE, AND LET'S MARK YOUR PROPOSAL AS RICHARDSON NUMBER TEN. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS REFERRED TO ABOVE WERE MARKED AS EXHIBIT NUMBERS 9 & 10 - DR. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) WITNESS: THEY DIDN'T KNOW ME VERY WELL THEN. THEY HAVE ME DOWN AS--- MR. BURGESS: DO YOU HAVE COPIES OF THAT? MS. PONZOLI: NO. WITNESS: --- THEY MISSPELLED MY NAME. MS. PONZOLI: I PROBABLY HAVE ONE FOR HIM. MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE CHANGING NUMBERS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 509 MS. PONZOLI: DID I CHANGE NUMBERS? MR. REID: NINE WAS THE EXHIBIT ABOUT ALL THE--- MR. BURGESS: SHE NEVER MARKED THEM. MR. REID: --- PRIVILEGED DOCUMENTS. MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK IT WAS EVER MARKED. MS. PONZOLI: WE DIDN'T ATTACH IT. MR. REID: OH. MS. PONZOLI: WE DIDN'T ATTACH IT. MR. REID: THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO. OKAY. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MS. PONZOLI: WE CAN. I MEAN, DID YOU REALLY WANT TO? I THINK--- MR. REID: NO. MS. PONZOLI: --- WE'VE ALREADY DONE THIS ONE AS NINE. WE ALREADY IDENTIFIED THIS ONE AS NINE. ALL RIGHT. LET'S DO NINE AS THE MINUTES. WITNESS: NO, WE'VE ALREADY DONE THIS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 510 ONE. MS. PONZOLI: AND TEN. MR. REID: THAT'S RIGHT. AND THIS IS EIGHT. MR. BURGESS: OFF THE RECORD. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MS. PONZOLI: BACK ON THE RECORD. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IS RICHARDSON NUMBER TEN YOUR PROPOSAL THAT WAS DISCUSSED AT THE MEETING WHERE MR. MacVICAR INDICATED THAT, AT LEAST IN HIS VIEW, THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT WAS NOT THAT CONCERNED ABOUT CATTAIL EXPANSION? A. THIS IS THE PROPOSAL. YES, I BELIEVE THAT I DISCUSSED THAT. WHETHER I CAN ATTEST TO THE FACT THAT THIS WAS THE EXACT MEETING, I DO NOT KNOW. Q. OKAY. I UNDERSTAND, I UNDERSTAND. A. IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANOTHER MEETING, BUT IT WAS ONE MEETING. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WE NOW HAVE I THINK IN TRUTH, THAT MR. REID WAS RIGHT. I THINK WE SHOULD ATTACH THE PRIVILEGED LIST. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 511 MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO TURN YOURS BACK TO YOU? MR. REID: NO, THANK YOU. MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. I THINK WE SHOULD MAKE THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER ELEVEN. MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M ALWAYS AHEAD OF MY TIME. MS. PONZOLI: YES. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 11- CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU EVER SEE THIS PRIVILEGED LIST, RICHARDSON NUMBER 11, DR. RICHARDSON, BEFORE IT WAS SENT TO UNITED STATES OR WAS THAT JUST DONE BY YOUR LAWYER? A. IT WAS DONE BY THE LAWYER, PRIMARILY. I THINK I MAY HAVE GOTTEN A COPY OF IT YESTERDAY. Q. OKAY. BUT--- A. I DIDN'T SEE IT BEFORE THEN. Q. SURE. I'M GOING TO APOLOGIZE, BUT I HAVE TO DO SOME JUMPING AMONG THE DOCUMENTS. SO I'LL TELL YOU WHICH ONE I'M REFERENCING AND GIVE YOU MY QUESTION AND ASK YOU TO BEAR WITH ME. YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 512 PROBABLY--- A. OKAY. WHICH ONES ARE WE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT, 8, 9, 10? Q. WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT--- A. 9? Q. --- 8 AND 11, FIRST. A. 8 AND 11. I GRABBED THE WRONG TWO. OKAY. Q. RIGHT. OKAY. A. 8 AND 11. OKAY. Q. IT'S SORT OF IN THIS WHOLE SERIES OF DOCUMENTS. THEY'RE FEEDING TOGETHER. YOU REMEMBER IN RICHARDSON NUMBER 8 THE PROPOSAL TO DO GIS ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION, WHICH YOU SAID WAS--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- WAS PULLED BACK AND NOT DONE, AT YOUR DECISION? A. YES. Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU PLEASE LOOK AT RICHARDSON NUMBER 11 AND TELL ME IF NUMBER 63 ON PAGE 7 IS, IN FACT, A PROPOSAL TO DO THAT WORK? MR. BURGESS: I CAN TELL YOU THAT IT'S NOT. I DID THE WORK. MS. PONZOLI: IT'S NOT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 513 MR. BURGESS: NO. A. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. I DON'T REMEMBER EVER SEEING A PROPOSAL TO DO THAT WORK. Q. OKAY. OKAY. THIS DOES DAY IT'S BY ES&P. SO YOU DID NOT SEND YOUR PROPOSALS THROUGH ES&P OR DO A JOINT EFFORT WITH ES&P? A. I DID NOT. Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU--- A. I THINK THAT'S A YEAR EARLIER THAN THIS. Q. WELL, IT IS; BUT, I MEAN, PIECING THIS WHOLE THING BACK TOGETHER--- A. SURE. Q. --- IS SIMILAR TO PIECING THE EVERGLADES BACK TOGETHER. IT'S JUST ABOUT AS DIFFICULT. I'D LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT REGARDING GIS SATELLITE IMAGERY AND ASK YOU IF, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IT'S EITHER ONE OF THESE EFFORTS? MS. PONZOLI: IT'S -- WE'LL MAKE THIS RICHARDSON NUMBER 12. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 514 (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 12 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. HERE'S 102. CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. 102. Q. THIS WOULD BE RICHARDSON NUMBER 11. MR. GREEN: NO, NUMBER 12. MS. PONZOLI: 12. I'M SORRY. I'm SORRY. I CAN'T COUNT. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I JUST -- CAN YOU IDENTIFY THE DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. IT LOOKS LIKE A LETTER FROM CHARLES SCHOECH TO ME IN '89, AWARDING THE PROPOSAL. Q. OKAY. A. THE REST OF THE DOCUMENTATION, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS. Q. WELL, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK BACK TO THE ERIM, E-R-I-M, CORRESPONDENCE AND ASK YOU IF THIS IS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 515 CORRESPONDENCE RELATED TO RICHARDSON NUMBER 8, YOUR GIS ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION. A. IS IT RELATED TO THIS? Q. WELL, WAS THIS A PROPOSAL THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER, AT YOUR REQUEST, FOR 5/1? A. LET ME JUST LOOK AT THIS AND SEE WHAT HE SAID HERE. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. WHILE HE'S LOOKING, YOU SAID HIS REQUEST FOR 5/1. WHAT WERE YOU REFERRING TO? MS. PONZOLI: 5/1 IS IN RICHARDSON NUMBER 8 ON THE SECOND PAGE--- MR. GREEN: THANK YOU. MS. PONZOLI: --- WHERE HE HAS TALKED ABOUT HAVING ERIM DO REMOTE SENSING AND GIS ANALYSIS. MR. GREEN: RIGHT. A. OKAY. THIS -- INITIALLY, I THINK YOU SEE FROM I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER HERE -- 8, I HAD PROPOSED THAT UNDER NUMBER 1 5(a)(1), IF YOU'RE WITH ME, ON PAGE 2, ERIM, THAT THEY HAD AGREED TO WORK WITH US TO ASSESS THE EXPANSION OF CATTAILS OVER BOTH TIME AND AREA. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 516 Q. RIGHT. A. OKAY. THE PERSON THAT WAS CONTACTED WAS ERIC KASISCHKE, WHO WAS A RESEARCH SCIENTIST FOR ERIM. OKAY? Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. SO I INITIALLY CONTACTED ERIC. AS I SAID, I THINK YESTERDAY, I HAD HAD CONTACT WITH ERIM FOR -- WHEN I WAS ON THE FACULTY AT MICHIGAN, SO I KNEW SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, AND ASKED THEM IF THEY WOULD BE INTERESTED TO WORK WITH US SINCE REMOTE SENSING REQUIRES A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF EQUIPMENT AND ALGORITHM SOFTWARE PACKAGES THAT TYPICAL -- TYPICALLY WE DO NOT HAVE AT DUKE--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND THAT I WANTED TO WORK WITH SOMEONE WHO REALLY KNEW THE BUSINESS. SO THAT LETTER STARTED OUT -- BASICALLY, I THINK I TALKED TO HIM. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. THIS LETTER IS ACTUALLY TO PAUL LARSON, NOT TO ME. THAT'S--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- FROM ERIC. Q. RIGHT. A. AND WE STARTED OUT ON SORT OF A TRACK. AND THAT'S DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 517 MY LETTER TO BARBARA, WHO WAS SAYING -- I THINK IT WAS BARBARA -- SAYING THAT I HAD CONTACTED THEM AND THEY WOULD AGREE TO BE INTERESTED TO CONSIDER DOING THAT WORK. Q. DID THEY DO THAT WORK? A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, YES, THEY DID DO THAT WORK. Q. THIS WORK HAS BEEN DONE, AND IT'S IN THE POSSESSION OF MR. LARSON, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE? A. I'M NOT SURE WHOSE POSSESSION IT IS, BUT I WOULD ASSUME IT IS. Q. BUT YOU KNOW THAT THE WORK -- YOU BELIEVE THE WORK TO HAVE BEEN DONE? A. I BELIEVE THE WORK TO HAVE BEEN DONE. IT WAS NOT DONE FOR ME. Q. HAVE YOU SEE IT? A. I HAVE SEEN PORTIONS OF IT. Q. ARE THESE THE SATELLITE IMAGES THAT YOU WERE REFERENCING BEFORE? A. SOME OF THEM, YES. Q. WERE THESE PRODUCED TO THE UNITED STATES AMONG YOUR DOCUMENTS? A. NO, THEY WERE NOT. Q. WHY NOT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 518 A. I WAS INSTRUCTED NOT TO PRODUCE THEM. Q. HOW MANY ARE THERE? A. I DON'T KNOW. FOUR OR FIVE, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, PHOTOGRAPHS, IMAGES. Q. AND YOU HAVE THEM IN YOUR POSSESSION AS FULL-SIZED SATELLITE IMAGES? A. I HAVE NONE OF THE RAW DATA. I HAVE SLIDES. Q. YOU ONLY POSSESS SLIDES? A. I ONLY POSSESS SLIDES. I HAVE SOME POSTERS RELATED TO THESE. I HAVE NO RAW DATA. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU HAVE A BIG PHOTOGRAPH. YOU JUST DON'T HAVE THE RAW DATA THAT GOES WITH THE PHOTOGRAPH. IS THAT RIGHT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO THESE SHOW? MR. BURGESS: INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER. MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER? MR. BURGESS: YES. MS. PONZOLI: BUT HE'S FORMING OPINIONS ON THIS. HE SAID SO. HIS LANDSCAPE DESIGN IS BEING BASED PARTIALLY ON THIS, MR. BURGESS. HOW CAN YOU KEEP ME FROM DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 519 DISCOVERING THIS? HE'S ALREADY SAID THAT HE ANTICIPATES GIVING TESTIMONY. HE'S DEVELOPING IT FOR TRIAL. MR. BURGESS: I DON'T RECALL -- I'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES. I DON'T RECALL HIM SAYING THAT HE'S DEVELOPING TESTIMONY THAT HE ANTICIPATES GIVING AT TRIAL BASED UPON THESE LANDSAT PHOTOGRAPHS. MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S PART OF HIS LANDSCAPE DESIGN FOR HOW THE EVERGLADES OUGHT TO BE MANAGED, I THOUGHT. YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO TELL ME WHAT THE PHOTOGRAPHS SHOW? MR. BURGESS: THAT'S CORRECT. MS. PONZOLI: BASED ON WHAT? MR. BURGESS: I THINK I WENT INTO THIS YESTERDAY. THEY'RE MY WORK PRODUCT. HE JUST SAID THEY WEREN'T DONE FOR HIM. THAT'S THE WAY THE PROPOSAL ORIGINALLY READS. THAT'S NOT THE WAY THE PROPOSAL WAS CONDUCTED. MS. PONZOLI: AND WHEN, IN YOUR THEORY, MR. BURGESS, ARE THEY GOING TO BECOME DISCOVERABLE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 520 MR. BURGESS: IFLL TELL YOU IN THE MORNING. I THINK I'VE ALREADY SAID FOUR TO SIX WEEKS. I'D LIKE TO REVIEW THIS IN LIGHT OF HIS TESTIMONY TODAY. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT ON THE RECORD, MR. BURGESS, THAT I AM A VERY PERSISTENT AND A RELATIVELY PATIENT PERSON. AND I HAVE A CLIENT THAT IS REALLY THE SAME. BUT THESE DEPOSITIONS AND THESE TRIPS TO NORTH CAROLINA ARE EXCEEDINGLY EXPENSIVE. AND THE PUBLIC IS PAYING FOR A LARGE AMOUNT OF EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON AT THIS TABLE. AND I THINK THAT IT IS A COLOSSAL WASTE OF THE PUBLIC'S MONEY THAT I HAVE TO RETURN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN TO NORTH CAROLINA TO CONDUCT DISCOVERY THAT COULD, QUITE HONESTLY, BE DONE IN A MUCH SIMPLER, LESS EXPENSIVE WAY. AND I THINK THAT'S WRONG. MR. BURGESS: NO ONE'S FORCED YOU TO TAKE ALL THE DEPOSITIONS UP HERE THAT YOU'VE TAKEN. MS. PONZOLI: YES, I BELIEVE--- MR. BURGESS: NO ONEFS FORCED YOU TO--- MS. PONZOLI: --- I BELIEVE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 521 MR. BURGESS: --- COPY BOXES AND BOXES AND BOXES OF DOCUMENTS. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, IT'S ACTUALLY BEEN QUITE A REFRESHING EXPERIENCE, SINCE THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE HAS, FOR ALL THE TIME THAT WE HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED SINCE BELLE GLADE AND CLEWISTON WERE ALLOWED INTO THE FEDERAL LITIGATION, REFUSED TO TURN OVER ANY DOCUMENTS DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT'S VERY CLEAR FROM DR. RICHARDSON'S TESTIMONY, HIS DOCUMENTS, YOUR PRIVILEGE LIST AND EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS, INCLUDING A FEDERAL ORDER FROM JUDGE HOEVELER, THAT YOU HAVE NOT TURNED OVER DISCOVERY FOR A PROTRACTED PERIOD OF TIME. MR. BURGESS: I DONFT AGREE AT ALL. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK THE RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. I'M GOTNG TO CERTIFY THE QUESTION. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ITEM SIXTY-THREE ON THE PRIVILEGED LIST IS DATED 5/06/88. IS THAT AN ACCURATE DATE, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I WOULD ASSUME SO. I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE IT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 522 IS NOT AN ACCURATE DATE. MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S ACCURATE, MR. BURGESS? MR. BURGESS: PROMISES TO TELL THE TRUTH, YES, I DO. YES, IT IS ACCURATE. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, NO, I MEAN, I'M ASKING. MR. BURGESS: YES, MA'AM. MS. PONZOLI: YOU KNOW, IF IT WER