DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 401

 

 

DOCUMENTS TO THE UNIVERSITY. AND WE HAVE A

 

 

FORMALIZED PROCEDURE AT THE UNIVERSITY HOW TO

 

 

CREATE CENTERS. AND SOME TIME DURING THE MID

 

 

'80'S, WE WORKED TOWARDS DEVELOPMENT OF A CENTER,

 

 

AND I FOLLOWED THOSE GUIDELINES AND THE CENTER

 

 

CAME INTO EXISTENCE. I THINK IT WAS FORMALLY

 

 

APPROVED -- IT WAS EITHER LATE 189 OR 190. I

 

 

CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE. IT WAS A CENTER;

 

 

THERE WAS A LETTER FROM THE PROVOST APPROVING IT,

 

 

BUT IT HAD TO GO BEFORE THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF

 

 

THE UNIVERSITY.

 

 

Q. WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES FOR FORMING A CENTER? DO

 

 

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FUNDING IN

 

 

ORDER TO BEGIN A CENTER?

 

 

A. THE FUNDING IS NOT THE MAJOR CRITERIA. YOU HAVE

 

 

TO HAVE A -- THE COLLEGIALITY REQUIREMENTS ARE

 

 

SUCH THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ACADEME WORKING

 

 

GROUP, A FACULTY, CROSS CAMPUSES. THERE'S A

 

 

GUIDEBOOK PROVIDED BY THE UNIVERSITY. YOU HAVE

 

 

TO HAVE A PLAN, AN OBJECTIVE, A SERIES OF GOALS,

AN EDUCATIONAL FORMAT, A RESEARCH FORMAT. YOU

HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THIS WILL PROVIDE THE

 

 

UNIVERSITY A -- IT HAS THE BASIS FOR BECOMING A

 

 

CENTER OF EXCELLENCE. SO, THERE ARE A NUMBER

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 402

 

 

OF ITEM -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE CRITERIA,

BUT THERE IS A FAIRLY LENGTHY PROCEDURE BY

WHICH YOU MOVE FROM STEP "A" TO STEP "B" AND

STEP "C".

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND YOU FILED YOUR FIRST PAPERS FOR THE

 

 

VARIOUS STEPS WHEN?

 

 

A. SOMETIME IN THE MID '80'S, 185, 186, SOMEWHERE IN

 

 

THERE.

 

 

Q. ARE THOSE DOCUMENTS DOCUMENTS THAT, IF I WERE TO

 

 

SEND A SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM WITHOUT DEPOSITION,

 

 

THAT THE UNIVERSITY WOULD ALLOW ME TO OBTAIN?

 

 

A. YOU'D HAVE TO ASK THE UNIVERSITY.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: EXCUSE ME, WOULD YOU

 

 

REPEAT THE FIRST PART OF THAT?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IF I WERE TO ASK FOR THE

 

 

DOCUMENTS ESTABLISHING THE DUKE WETLAND

 

 

CENTER, WOULD THE UNIVERSITY OBJECT TO THE

 

 

PRODUCTION OF THOSE DOCUMENTS?

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: LET ME ASK YOU WHAT

 

 

THE PURPOSE WOULD BE. LIKE ALL INTERNAL

 

 

DOCUMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY, IF THERE'S A,

 

 

YOU KNOW, IF YOU FEEL LIKE THERE'S A VALID

 

 

DISCOVERY---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 403

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: --- FILED, WE WOULDN'T

 

 

OBJECT TO IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: CERTAINLY. I THINK I

 

 

HAVE CORRESPONDENCE INDICATING THERE WERE

 

 

PEOPLE IN FLORIDA WHO FELT THAT THE CENTER

 

 

WAS FORMED REALLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THE

 

 

PARTICULAR INDUSTRY'S RESEARCH. I REALIZE

 

 

FROM OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT IT SERVES MANY

 

 

OTHER PURPOSES TODAY. BUT THAT ITS FORMATION

 

 

CAME DIRECTLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THIS INITIAL

 

 

FUNDING. AND IF THAT'S TRUE, IT'S TRUE; IF

 

 

IT'S NOT TRUE, IT'S NOT TRUE. BUT I HAVE NO

 

 

WAY OF ESTABLISHING THAT WITHOUT THAT

 

 

INFORMATION.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: GO AHEAD AND SUBMIT IT,

 

 

THE SUBPOENA.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. YOU WANT TO THINK

 

 

ABOUT IT, OKAY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. I GUESS THE SIMPLEST

 

 

THING IS JUST SIMPLY TO ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON,

 

 

WAS THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE'S INITIAL GRANT,

 

 

I GUESS, THE SPARK THAT LIT THE FIRE THAT GOT YOU

 

 

TO WHERE YOU COULD HAVE A CENTER?

 

 

A. NO, NOT DIRECTLY. IT WASN'T THE PRIMARY PIECE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 404

 

 

THERE WAS -- THAT MAY BE ONE OF MANY PIECES. BUT

 

 

THE CENTER ACTUALLY, AS I SAID, HAD TO HAVE A

 

 

NUMBER OF CRITERIA. IT HAD TO HAVE FACULTY --

 

 

CRITICAL MASS OF FACULTY WHO AGREED; IT HAD TO

 

 

HAVE SOME GOALS; IT HAD TO HAVE SOME PURPOSE IN

 

 

THE SCHOOL AT THE TIME; AND, ESSENTIALLY, THE

 

 

UNIVERSITY HAD TO COMMIT SOME RESOURCES ITSELF,

 

 

WHICH IT DID, TO ESTABLISHING THIS CENTER. SO,

 

 

THE CENTER WAS ACTUALLY ESTABLISHED BY THE DEAN

 

 

OF THE SCHOOL OF FORESTRY WHO COMMITTED FUNDS TO

 

 

THIS. AND THERE WERE SOME PRIVATE DONORS WHO GAVE

 

 

TO HELP ESTABLISH THIS. THERE'S AN ENDOWMENT FUND

 

 

THAT WAS ESTABLISHED FOR THE CENTER. AND THERE

 

 

ARE SOME STUDENT SCHOLARSHIP FUNDS THAT ARE UNDER

 

 

MY DIRECTION RELATED TO THE CENTER THAT, AGAIN,

 

 

CAME FROM VARIOUS SOURCES.

 

 

SO, THAT -- THAT ALL HAD TO BE PUT IN PLACE.

 

 

IT HAPPENED ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS THE RESEARCH

 

 

PROJECT TOOK PLACE, SO IT WAS SORT OF A NORMAL

 

 

MELDING OF THIS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IN THE DESCRIPTION OF THE DUKE UNIVERSITY

 

 

WETLAND CENTER, YOU LIST -- IS THIS THE INITIAL

 

 

ONE? IS THIS -- THIS TYPEWRITTEN VERSION---

 

 

A. NO. I BELIEVE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 405

 

 

Q. --- THAT'S RICHARDSON---

 

 

A. --- THERE ARE SEVERAL EARLIER DRAFTS. IN FACT, AS

 

 

I MENTIONEDI IN THE MID '80'S, WE HAD TO PRODUCE

 

 

SOME EARLY DOCUMENTS THAT WOULD BE WHAT THE

 

 

CENTER -- WOULD BE -- ORIGINALLY, IT WAS CALLED

 

 

WETLANDS ECOLOGY AND COASTAL SOMETHING CENTER, AND

 

 

THEN WENT THROUGH SEVERAL ITERATIONS.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN THIS ONE WAS WRITTEN?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. IT WAS OBVIOUSLY AFTER THE

 

 

ONE IN THE MID '80'S, SO IT WAS PROBABLY 189,

 

 

MAYBE 188.

 

 

Q. MAY I RETRIEVE RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE FROM YOU.

 

 

IT'S THE ONLY COPY I HAVE. I BELIEVE THAT -- JUST

 

 

A CURSORY GLANCE -- THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR

 

 

AND RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE ARE VERY, VERY SIMILAR.

 

 

IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I THINK THEY'RE FAIRLY CLOSE. I---

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT I CAN REALLY

 

 

SEE OF SUBSTANCE IS, IS THE SELECTED RESEARCH

 

 

PROJECTS CONDUCTED AT DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND

 

 

CENTER, AND THEN THERE'S A LIST OF PROJECTS. AND

 

 

THEN -- I GUESS I'D JUST LIKE TO ASK YOU. THAT

 

 

DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE IN RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE,

 

 

DOES IT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 406

 

 

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SOME OF IT DOES, YES. BUT THE PROBLEM

 

 

IS THE COST OF PRINTING---

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. --- IS QUITE HIGH---

 

 

Q. I CAN IMAGINE.

 

 

A. ---AND THAT BROCHURE WAS NOT CHEAP.

 

 

Q. IT'S A VERY HANDSOME BROCHURE.

 

 

A. I TOOK SOME OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS MYSELF.

 

 

Q. DID YOU TAKE THE ONE ON THE FRONT, OF THE

 

 

EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. SUNSET IN THE FLORIDA EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. NO, THAT WAS -- THAT WAS ACTUALLY A COMMERCIAL

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHER WHO DID THAT.

 

 

Q. CATTAILS OR SAWGRASS?

 

 

A. OH, IT'S HARD TO TELL IN THE SUNSET.

 

 

Q. THE LIGHTING IS NOT GOOD, HUH? ALL RIGHT. WHERE

 

 

ARE THE RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT ARE LISTED?

 

 

A. IF YOU'D OPEN TO THE INSIDE AND LOOK AROUND THE

 

 

BORDER---

 

 

Q. THE INSIDE SEEMS TO BE A LANDSAT.

 

 

A. NO, IF YOU'D LOOK AT THE BORDER---

 

 

Q. OHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

 

 

A. --- WHICH NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER DISCOVERED EITHER.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 407

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

A. IT WAS MY IDEA TO PLACE THOSE ON THE BORDER, WHICH

 

 

ACCORDING TO THE PERSON WHO DOES THE LAYOUT, WHO'S

 

 

A PROFESSIONAL IN THE SCHOOL, IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.

 

 

BUT THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE I COULD FIT IT IN, AND

 

 

IT TURNED OUT TO BE NOT A GOOD IDEA. AND NO ONE

 

 

HAS DISCOVERED THIS.

 

 

Q. MORE EMPIRICAL DATA RIGHT HERE. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

THERE'S JUST A COUPLE OF PROJECTS. I DON'T KNOW

 

 

IF THEY'RE LISTED, AND MAYBE YOU CAN POINT ME TO

 

 

THEM.

 

 

A. I'M NOT ---

 

 

Q. YOU HAVE ---

 

 

A. EXCUSE ME.

 

 

Q. GO AHEAD. NO, GO AHEAD.

 

 

A. NO. YOU ASK YOUR QUESTION.

 

 

Q. YOU'RE NOT SURE, WHAT?

 

 

A. NOPE, GO AHEAD. FINISH YOUR QUESTION.

 

 

Q. TWO PROJECTS -- "ECOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE

 

 

EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS AND HYDROPERIOD ON CATTAIL

 

 

REGENERATION AND NUTRIENT RETENTION IN THE WATER

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 408

 

 

 

 

CONSERVATION AREAS OF SOUTH FLORIDA." DID YOU

 

 

PRINT THAT AROUND THE BORDER?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. THE -- LISA PHELPS, MY ASSISTANT,

 

 

JUDICIOUSLY WENT THROUGH, BY SPACE, AND JUST

 

 

KNOCKED OUT SOME THAT DIDN'T FIT. THERE WAS NO --

 

 

I TOLD HER -- I SAID, JUST MAKE THEM FIT. AND SHE

 

 

JUST -- SHE SAID, "I CAN'T FIT THEM ALL," AND I

 

 

SAID, "FIT WHAT YOU CAN FIT."

 

 

Q. AND SINCE NO ONE EVER READ THEM, IT DIDN'T MATTER

 

 

ANYWAY.

 

 

A. WELL, I THOUGHT THEY WOULD, BUT APPARENTLY THEY

 

 

DIDN'T; BECAUSE WE GET REQUESTS, "THANKS FOR THE

 

 

BROCHURE, BUT WHAT TYPES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS HAVE

 

 

YOU EVER DONE?"

 

 

Q. AND YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM LOOK AROUND THE BORDER

 

 

OF NORTH CAROLINA. AND THEN "THE NUTRIENT AND

 

 

CONTAMINANT TRANSPORT IN SATURATED AND UNSATURATED

 

 

SOILS." IS THAT ALSO REFERRING TO YOUR EVERGLADES

 

 

WORK?

 

 

I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE; WHERE ARE YOU NOW?

 

 

Q. THE SECOND -- ON PAGE NUMBER 7.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. THAT MAY REFER MORE TO THE TVA PROJECT THAT WE

 

 

HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH. AND THAT ALSO COULD

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 409

 

 

 

 

BE -- I -- THAT MAY BE A GENERIC TITLE. I CANFT

 

 

REMEMBER. I ASKED INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATORS --

 

 

THESE ARE NOT ALL MY INDIVIDUAL TITLES. YOU HAVE

 

 

TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I DID WAS I WENT TO

 

 

INDIVIDUALS IN MY GROUP IN THE CENTER AND ASKED

 

 

THEM FOR VARIOUS TITLES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT

 

 

THEY WERE DOING CURRENTLY OR -- AND SO. BUT THAT

 

 

ONE, I THINK, IS MINE, RELATED PROBABLY TO TVA, OR

 

 

MAYBE THE NORTH CAROLINA STUDY.

 

 

Q. SURE. ALL RIGHT. ON RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR,

 

 

YOU HAVE A FACULTY LISTED. THESE ARE PEOPLE

 

 

WHO EITHER ARE DOING RESEARCH ASSOCIATED WITH

 

 

THE CENTER, OR WHAT? HOW ARE THESE FACULTY

 

 

LISTED?

 

 

A. THESE ARE FACULTY WHO HAVE AGREED, BY UNIVERSITY

 

 

POLICY, TO BE LISTED HERE AND IN THE BULLETINS; TO

 

 

PARTICIPATE; TO WORK WITH STUDENTS ON WETLANDS

 

 

ISSUES; TO HELP WRITE GRANTS; TO SERVE ON

 

 

COMMITTEES; TO TEACH COURSES; ETCETERA.

 

 

Q. SO, WOULD THEY BELONG -- SO, I SEE THEY DO BELONG

 

 

TO VARIOUS OTHER DEPARTMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY,

 

 

BUT THEN THEY JUST SORT OF JOIN TOGETHER IN THIS

 

 

CENTER CONCEPT ---

 

 

A. THAT'S THE WAY ---

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 410

 

 

Q. --- TO SUPERVISE GRADUATE STUDENTS, AND PERFORM

 

 

OTHER TASKS.

 

 

A. --- THAT IS THE WAY MOST CENTERS FUNCTION IN MOST

 

 

UNIVERSITIES. WELL, THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WE SEE THAT DR. RECKHOW IS LISTED AS

 

 

PART OF YOUR FACULTY.

 

 

A. THAT IS CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S REALLY ALL I HAVE

 

 

ON THAT. I'D LIKE TO---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, I'D LIKE TO HAND

 

 

YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT AND ASK IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY

 

 

THAT.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. IT'S A -- THE FIRST ONE HERE IS A LETTER TO IN

 

 

FACT, IT LOOKS LIKE SEVERAL LETTERS TO NAT REED.

 

 

DID I ANSWER THAT FOR YOU?

 

 

Q. DO YOU IDENTIFY THESE AS YOUR DOCUMENTS---

 

 

A. YES, THESE ARE---

 

 

Q. --- IT'S A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 411

 

 

 

 

A. --- THESE ARE LETTERS -- A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT. I

 

 

BELIEVE, AS I SAID, THESE ARE LETTERS THAT --

 

 

CORRESPONDENCE THAT I SENT. ONE OF THEM, I DIDN'T

 

 

SIGN, BUT I THINK I DICTATED TO LISA---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- THAT I SENT TO NAT REED.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MAKE THIS

 

 

COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: CAN I JUST GET SOME

 

 

CLARIFICATION FOR THE RECORD? WHEN YOU

 

 

REFER TO COMPOSITE EXHIBIT, IS THAT THE

 

 

MANNER THAT HE'S PRODUCED IT TO YOU, OR

 

 

IS THAT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU'RE SHOWING

 

 

IT TO HIM?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: NO, THAT'S THE MANNER IN

 

 

WHICH IT WAS PRODUCED TO ME. AND DUE TO THE

 

 

RATHER TIGHT TIME CONSTRAINTS OF RECEIVING

 

 

THE DOCUMENTS AND COMING UP HERE, I HAVE NOT

 

 

REALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO PULL OUT OF A

 

 

LOT OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS THE SINGLE

 

 

ONE OR TWO DOCUMENTS THAT I WISH TO DEAL

 

 

WITH. BECAUSE BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO ME,

 

 

THEY WERE ALREADY STAPLED TOGETHER. AND

 

 

SORT OF UNSTAPLING THEM AND REASSEMBLING

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 412

 

 

 

 

THEM WAS A TASK THAT TIME WOULD NOT ALLOW.

 

 

SO, IN MANY OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS---

 

 

WITNESS: WELL, ON THE FRONT PAGE,

 

 

YOU'RE---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN

 

 

A SINGLE, OR MAYBE TWO DOCUMENTS, BUT THEY

 

 

WERE ALREADY PUT TOGETHER. SO, THAT'S ALL I

 

 

CAN -- THAT'S ALL I COULD DO WITH IT.

 

 

LET'S MARK THIS COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER

 

 

SIX.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 6 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU, IT APPEARS

 

 

THAT YOU INVITED MR. REED TO SERVE ON SOME KIND OF

 

 

A COUNCIL FOR THE WETLAND CENTER. CAN YOU TELL ME

 

 

WHAT THAT WAS?

 

 

A. YES. WE -- THE WETLAND CENTER WAS DEVELOPING A

 

 

COUNCIL. AS PART OF THE MISSION, AS I MENTIONED

 

 

TO YOU, THE UNIVERSITY REQUIRED THAT WE HAVE

 

 

CERTAIN GOALS AND MISSIONS. AND ONE OF THE

 

 

ASPECTS OF THAT WOULD BE TO -- THAT WE MENTIONED

 

 

WAS, IN FACT, BECOME INVOLVED WITH ENVIRONMENTAL

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 413

 

 

 

 

WETLAND ISSUES AROUND THE COUNTRY. AND TO HELP US

 

 

IN OVERSEEING AND SELECTING PROJECTS AND DOING

 

 

THINGS, WE WERE TO ESTABLISH A COUNCIL. AND SO WE

 

 

STARTED THAT PROCESS IN 1990.

 

 

Q. DID YOU, IN FACT, FORM A COUNCIL?

 

 

A. NO, WE HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE FORMATION OF A

 

 

COUNCIL, AS A MATTER OF FACT.

 

 

Q. IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON?

 

 

A. WELL, SEVERAL. ONE, WE DID HAVE A NUMBER OF

 

 

INDIVIDUALS FROM BOTH PRIVATE SECTOR, AND

 

 

GOVERNMENT, AND INDUSTRY LINED UP; HOWEVER, OUR

 

 

ADMINISTRATION CHANGED IN THE SCHOOL, AND THEY

 

 

DECIDED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO CREATE A SCHOOL OF

 

 

THE ENVIRONMENT COUNCIL, WHICH THEY HAVE DONE.

 

 

I'M NOT SURE IT'S CALLED A COUNCIL, BUT THEY HAVE

 

 

A LARGER -- AND THERE WAS A RE -- COMPLETE

 

 

REORGANIZATION OF THE SCHOOL. A NEW BUILDING WAS

 

 

BEING DEVELOPED; NUMBERS OF INDIVIDUALS WERE BEING

 

 

ASKED TO SERVE ON DUPLICATE BOARDS; AND SO,

 

 

ALLY, THIS WAS PUT ON HOLD UNTIL THE SCHOOL

 

 

BASIC COULD RE-SORT AND REORGANIZE. AND IT'S OUR

 

 

INTENTION TO COMPLETE THIS, BUT WE HAVE NOT -- IN

 

 

FACT, WE HAVE MADE SEVERAL ATTEMPTS SINCE THAT

 

 

POINT. THE NEW DEAN HAS GIVEN ME THE GO-AHEAD TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 414

 

 

SAY THAT WE PROBABLY WILL DO THIS IN THE NEAR

 

 

FUTURE, BUT WE HAVEN'T.

 

 

Q. DID MR. REED EVER ACCEPT OR DECLINE YOUR

 

 

INVITATION?

 

 

A. HE -- I THINK HIS WORDS TO ME WERE -- WHEN I MET

 

 

WITH HIM AT HOBE SOUND WAS, IT WAS A GOOD IDEA; HE

 

 

WAS APPRECIATIVE OF BEING CONSIDERED; HE WAS

 

 

EXTREMELY BUSY; HE MIGHT CONSIDER IT SOME TIME IN

 

 

THE FUTURE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU MENTION IN HERE THAT YOU

 

 

INTEND TO WORK WITH THE DISTRICT TO DEVELOP BEST

 

 

MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS, AND I THINK

 

 

I'VE SEEN THAT IN YOUR WRITING SEVERAL PLACES. IN

 

 

RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, WHEN YOU TALK

 

 

ABOUT RESEARCH, YOU TALK ABOUT DOING RESEARCH FOR

 

 

BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR FORESTRY AND

 

 

AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO WETLANDS.

 

 

A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)

 

 

Q. IS THIS A -- SORT OF A UNIQUE CONCEPT THAT YOU

 

 

WOULD DO BMPIS FOR A WETLAND ITSELF? FOR THE

 

 

NATURAL AREA, YOU WOULD DO THE BMP AS OPPOSED TO

 

 

THE, LET'S SAY, INDUSTRIAL OR OTHER USE ADJACENT

 

 

TO THE NATURAL AREA. DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY

 

 

QUESTION?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 415

 

 

 

 

A. ARE YOU -- NOT COMPLETELY. ARE YOU ASKING -- GO

 

 

AHEAD, REPHRASE IT, PLEASE.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

A. CAN I SEE THE DOCUMENT THAT YOU'RE---

 

 

Q. SURE. SURE. I'M REFERRING TO OVER HERE, RESEARCH

 

 

IS NEEDED TO -- AND IT'S THE ONE, TWO -- THIRD

 

 

BULLET DOWN.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. YES. "DEVELOP BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR

 

 

FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO

 

 

WETLANDS."

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. BUT YOU HAVE PROPOSED IN YOUR LETTER TO

 

 

MR. REED, AND ELSEWHERE -- I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN

 

 

HONEST IN YOUR DEPOSITION -- THAT'S WHAT YOU

 

 

PROPOSED TO DO WAS BMP'S FOR THE ACTUAL NATURAL

 

 

AREAS THEMSELVES.

 

 

A. ARE YOU ASKING WHAT'S SO, WHAT IS YOUR

 

 

QUESTION?

 

 

Q. THE QUESTION IS, ISN'T THAT A RATHER UNIQUE

 

 

CONCEPT THAT YOU WOULD DO A BMP FOR A NATURAL

 

 

AREA?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 416

 

 

 

 

A. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT SAYS NATURAL AREA HERE, IT

 

 

SAYS---

 

 

Q. NO. IT SAYS NATURAL AREA IN YOUR LETTER TO

 

 

MR. REED AND IN OTHER DOCUMENTS.

 

 

A. WELL, LET ME -- WHERE DO WE SEE THAT? SHOW ME

 

 

THAT, PLEASE.

 

 

Q. THAT'S IN RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX.

 

 

A. OKAY. WHERE IS THAT?

 

 

Q. THE END OF THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. "REST ASSURED

 

 

THAT OUR RESEARCH FINDINGS WILL BE AVAILABLE TO

 

 

ALL AND MADE PUBLIC AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IN

 

 

ADDITION, WE WILL WORK WITH THE SOUTH FLORIDA

 

 

WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT TO DEVELOP THE BEST

 

 

MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS.''

 

 

A. WELL---

 

 

Q. BUT, IN FAIRNESS, DR. RICHARDSON, LET ME TELL YOU

 

 

THE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES APPEARS THROUGHOUT

 

 

YOUR DOCUMENTS. I MEAN, I CAN FIND IT OTHER

 

 

PLACES.

 

 

A. OH, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. I JUST---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- YOU SAID -- I THOUGHT YOU SAID FOR NATURAL

 

 

WETLANDS. I DON'T SEE WHERE IT SAYS NATURAL

 

 

WETLANDS HERE. THAT'S MY POINT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 417

 

 

 

 

Q. OH, YOU DON'T CONSIDER THE WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREAS NATURAL AREAS?

 

 

A. NOT ANY MORE.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. I MEAN, THEY ARE WETLANDS, BUT THEY ARE NOT---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- IN THEIR ORIGINAL NATURAL STATE. THAT'S WHY I

 

 

WAS LOOKING FOR THE WORD NATURAL. FOR A WETLANDS,

 

 

YOU CAN HAVE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR

 

 

WETLANDS AS WELL AS YOU HAVE FOREST LANDS. A

 

 

PERFECT CASE IN POINT IS WE HAVE BEEN WORKING

 

 

WITH WEYERHAEUSER. AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW,

 

 

PINE PLANTATIONS ARE TECHNICALLY WETLANDS, AND

 

 

BOTTOM LAND HARDWOOD FORESTS AND SO FORTH, WHICH

 

 

ARE FORESTRY PRACTICES. THERE ARE -- THEY ARE

 

 

SYSTEMS THAT CAN BE NATURAL, OR MANAGED, OR

 

 

MANMADE, AND THEY ARE CONSIDERED WETLANDS, AND YOU

 

 

CAN COME UP WITH BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR

 

 

THOSE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS, AND THEY ARE LEGALLY

 

 

DEFINED AS WETLANDS.

 

 

Q. THE FORESTRY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, ARE THOSE

 

 

INDUSTRY-RELATED ACTIVITIES WHERE A CERTAIN AMOUNT

 

 

OF TIMBER IS REMOVED FROM THE LAND, A CERTAIN

 

 

AMOUNT IS LEFT, A CERTAIN AMOUNT IS REPLANTED?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 418

 

 

 

 

A. IN SOME CASES, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT IN ANY PLACES WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO

 

 

MAINTAIN NATURAL AREAS, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH,

 

 

LIKE, BMP'S FOR THOSE NATURAL AREAS? THAT WAS MY

 

 

QUESTION, REALLY.

 

 

A. WELL, WE HOPE TO DEVELOP SOME BMP'S RELATED TO --

 

 

THERE IS NO REASON THAT YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH

 

 

MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR WETLANDS SYSTEMS.

 

 

Q. SO, THIS IS SORT OF A UNIQUE IDEA AT THE CENTER

 

 

THAT HASNFT REALLY---

 

 

A. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF -- PROBABLY ONE OF THE AREAS

 

 

WE WOULD LIKE TO PURSUE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. OVER IN YOUR LETTER OF JULY 1990, AGAIN TO

 

 

MR. REED, YOU'VE SENT HIM A COPY OF YOUR FIRST

 

 

ANNUAL REPORT, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE GOING

 

 

TO QUANTIFY THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL, AND

 

 

DETERMINE IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES FOR THE

 

 

ECOSYSTEM. AND I GUESS I WOULD ASK YOU WHAT THE

 

 

IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE

 

 

DEVELOPED FOR THE EVERGLADES ARE?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I -- THE INFORMATION I HAVE TO DATE, WE,

 

 

BASICALLY, IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES,

 

 

WOULD BE TO LOOK AT THE -- THE PRIMARY ONE WOULD

 

 

BE HOW TO REDISTRIBUTE THE WATER RELATED TO THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 419

 

 

 

 

SURFACE FLOW OF THESE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS. THAT

 

 

WOULD BE ONE AS RELATES TO SORT OF THIS LANDSCAPE

 

 

REVIEW.

 

 

Q. YOU'RE JUST BEGINNING THAT, THOUGH, AREN'T YOU?

 

 

A. WELL, I'VE COMPILED INFORMATION ON IT; I HAVEN'T

 

 

PULLED THAT ALL TOGETHER. AND THEN, IN TERMS OF

 

 

MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES, I THINK WE WILL TRY TO --

 

 

WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT PHOSPHORUS STORAGE

 

 

POTENTIAL, AND, AS IT RELATES TO MANAGEMENT OF

 

 

THESE SYSTEMS, I BELIEVE ONE OF THE IMPORTANT

 

 

ASPECTS WAS TO DETERMINE IF AND HOW LONG

 

 

PHOSPHORUS COULD BE STORED IN THOSE SYSTEMS,

 

 

AS I FELT THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT AREA TO TAKE A

 

 

LOOK AT.

 

 

Q. AND YOU'VE DECIDED HOW LONG CAN IT BE STORED?

 

 

A. WELL, I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT YEAR OR DATE ON HOW

 

 

LONG IT CAN BE STORED. IT SEEMS TO BE -- IF

 

 

IT'S -- I THINK I CAME UP WITH A FAIRLY INFORMED

 

 

APPROACH ON HOW TO BASICALLY LOOK AT PEAT

 

 

ACCRETION AND PHOSPHORUS STORAGE FOR THAT SYSTEM,

 

 

AND A MECHANISM THAT BASICALLY INDICATES THAT IF

 

 

YOU CAN MAINTAIN REASONABLE HYDROLOGY, YOU CAN

 

 

STORE IT FOR AN INFINITE LONG PERIOD OF TIME. I

 

 

CAN'T SAY EXACTLY HOW LONG.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 420

 

 

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU DONE THE MODELING FOR THE HYDROLOGY SO

 

 

THAT YOU COULD SAY TO THE DISTRICT THIS IS THE

 

 

PRECISE HYDROLOGY THAT YOU WOULD NEED TO USE WITH

 

 

THESE AREAS TO MAINTAIN THEM IN AT LEAST THEIR

 

 

CURRENT CONDITION?

 

 

A. WE HAVE STARTED TO DO SOME OF THAT MODELING.

 

 

Q. WHO IS DOING THAT MODELING FOR YOU?

 

 

A. I'M HAVING A STUDENT WORK PRIMARILY ON THAT

 

 

MODELING.

 

 

Q. WHICH STUDENT IS THIS?

 

 

A. WELL, IT'S A CO-STUDENT OF MINE AND DR. RECKHOW'S,

 

 

SONG.

 

 

Q. SONG. OKAY. WHEN WILL THAT WORK BE COMPLETED?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE. HE IS -- HE'S COMPLETED THE

 

 

LITERATURE REVIEW AND SOME DATA COMPILATIONS, AND

 

 

I THINK HE HAS DONE SOME FIRST OR SECOND CUTS ON

 

 

SOME OF THE DATA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT MODEL ARE YOU GOING TO USE FOR THIS?

 

 

A. WELL, RIGHT NOW, THE FIRST CUT ON IT IS MORE OF A

 

 

BEYSIAN STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AS IT RELATES TO THE

 

 

ACTUAL WATER QUALITY DATA, AND THE HYDROLOGY, AND

 

 

THE INPUTS AND OUTPUTS, AND FOR THE SPECIFICS OF

 

 

THAT. I COULD GIVE YOU SOME TERMS, BUT IT

 

 

WOULDN'T MEAN A WHOLE LOT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 421

 

 

 

 

Q. NO, YOU CAN DO THAT, BUT I WOULD ASK YOU TO PLEASE

 

 

DO IT IN LAYMAN'S LANGUAGE. I MEAN, I IMAGINE

 

 

THERE IS A SPECIFIC HYDROLOGIC MODEL THAT YOU

 

 

WOULD NEED TO USE.

 

 

A. WELL, WE'RE DEVELOPING A HYDROLOGIC MODEL---

 

 

Q. YOU'RE GOING TO BUILD YOUR OWN MODEL---

 

 

A. --- AND THEY'RE DEVELOP---

 

 

Q. --- FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

DISTRICT?

 

 

A. NO, NO, FOR A SPECIFIC COMPONENT. WE ARE

 

 

DEVELOPING SOMETHING FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA

 

 

2A, PRIMARILY.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU ARE DEVELOPING A WATER MODEL FOR 2A, THAT

 

 

YOU BELIEVE THAT IF THIS WATER MODEL WERE USED --

 

 

I MEAN, JUST SO I'M -- SO I MAKE SURE WE'RE ON THE

 

 

SAME WAVELENGTH -- 2A WOULD REMAIN, IN YOUR

 

 

OPINION, IN ITS PRESENT STATE. IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. THAT'S NOT THE OVERALL GOAL. THE GOAL OF THE

 

 

MODEL AT THE PRESENT STAGE RIGHT NOW IS TO TRY TO

 

 

UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HYDROLOGY AND

 

 

WATER QUALITY. AND THE SECOND PHASE, THE SPECIFIC

 

 

GOALS OF THAT MODEL, WHICH ARE TO BE DETERMINED --

 

 

THERE MAY BE ANOTHER PHASE -- REALLY ARE UNDER THE

 

 

DIRECTION OF DR. RECKHOW, NOT MYSELF.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 422

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, THE FIRST PHASE IS YOU'RE STILL TRYING

 

 

TO SEPARATE OUT THIS ISSUE THAT YOU'RE NOT EVEN

 

 

SURE WE CAN SEPARATE OUT, HYDROLOGY AND WATER

 

 

QUALITY, IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME -- WE'RE TRYING TO TEASE OUT

 

 

SOME COMPONENTS WITH A LIMITED DATABASE THAT IS

 

 

AVAILABLE. WE'RE TRYING TO BASICALLY SEE IF

 

 

THERE'S A RELATIONSHIP, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN WATER

 

 

DEPTH AND WATER QUALITY, AND FLOW AND WATER

 

 

QUALITY, AND SOME OTHER ASPECTS OF THAT.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU'RE REALLY AT A VERY EARLY STAGE OF A

 

 

RESEARCH PROJECT?

 

 

A. FAIRLY EARLY IN THAT, YEAH. HE'S BEEN WORKING ON

 

 

THAT A NUMBER OF MONTHS, BUT---

 

 

Q. DO YOU THINK THIS WILL TAKE SEVERAL YEARS?

 

 

A. I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA. DR. RECKHOW WOULD HAVE A

 

 

BETTER IDEA, BECAUSE THE LAST FEW MEETINGS THAT

 

 

SONG HAS MADE UPDATES ON HIS PROGRESS, I HAVE NOT

 

 

ATTENDED; I HAVE BEEN AT DEPOSITIONS.

 

 

Q. DR. RECKHOWFS WORK THAT HE'S DOING ON THIS, DO YOU

 

 

BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL BE USED IN THESE PARTICULAR

 

 

PROCEEDINGS IF IT'S COMPLETED, PHASE TWO?

 

 

A. WHAT'S THE LAST PART, PHASE TWO? YOU'VE GOT ME ON

 

 

THAT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 423

 

 

 

 

Q. WELL, YOU SAID PHASE ONE WAS BEING DONE BY---

 

 

A. OH, PHASE TWO.

 

 

Q. --- SONG ON HYDROLOGY AND WATER QUALITY. YOU

 

 

HAVEN'T REALLY TOLD ME WHAT DR. RECKHOW IS DOING

 

 

ON PHASE TWO, I DON'T THINK; OR IF YOU DID, I

 

 

MISSED IT SOMEHOW.

 

 

A. I AM -- AS I SAID, I'VE MISSED -- WE HAD SOME

 

 

EARLY MEETINGS TO -- MY ROLE IN THIS HAS BEEN

 

 

PRIMARILY TO HELP SONG UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM,

 

 

AND TO PROVIDE WHAT DATA I COULD, AND TO HELP

 

 

HIM LOCATE SOME OTHER DATA.

 

 

DR. RECKHOW HAS BEEN PRIMARILY THE MODELING

 

 

PERSON FOCUSING ON THIS. AND I HAVE BEEN --

 

 

WELL, I'VE BEEN THERE SORT OF AS A -- AS AN

 

 

EXPERIMENTALIST AND AS AN ECOLOGIST, TO TRY TO

 

 

BASICALLY GUIDE THEM IN TERMS OF WHETHER THIS

 

 

MAKES ANY REASONABLE -- AS YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW,

 

 

REASONABLE SENSE. MODELERS CAN MAKE MODELS,

 

 

BUT THEY MAY NOT SIMULATE THE SYSTEM ACCURATELY.

 

 

Q. OH, I COULD SAY WITH SOME CERTAINTY THEY MAY NEVER

 

 

MAKE SENSE TO SOME OF US, BUT---

 

 

A. BUT, IN ANY CASE -- SO HE IS -- HE HAS MADE SOME

 

 

PROGRESS, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN THE LAST TWO

 

 

PRESENTATIONS, SO I DON'T---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 424

 

 

 

 

Q. SO, REALLY, THERE'S NOT LIKE TWO PHASES IN THE

 

 

SENSE THAT YOU DO ONE TASK, AND THEN THERE'S A

 

 

WHOLE SEPARATE SET OF TASKS. IT'S ALL THE

 

 

BUILDING OF THIS MODEL, AND YOU'RE JUST SIMPLY

 

 

DOING THE DATA INPUT AND THE ECOLOGICAL CONCERNS,

 

 

AND THEN DR. RECKHOW---

 

 

A. INTERPRETATION.

 

 

Q. --- IS GOING TO DO -- INTERPRETATION OF WHAT, THE

 

 

DATA?

 

 

A. WELL, INTERPRETATION OF WHICH DATA WOULD BE

 

 

APPROPRIATE, AND WHETHER IT MAKES ECOLOGICAL

 

 

SENSE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHICH DATA ARE YOU DIRECTING MR. SONG TO

 

 

IS IT DR. SONG OR MR. SONG?

 

 

A. MR. SONG.

 

 

Q. MR. SONG.

 

 

A. QIAN.

 

 

Q. MR. QIAN SONG?

 

 

A. NO -- WELL, IT WOULD BE QIAN SONG IN CHINA, BUT

 

 

IT'S SONG QIAN HERE.

 

 

Q. SORRY. MR. QIAN. WHICH DATA?

 

 

A. MOST OF IT COMES FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER

 

 

MANAGEMENT DISTRICT'S FILES.

 

 

Q. ARE THEY IN THE SWIM PLAN?

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 425

 

 

A. THIS DATA?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. SOME COMPONENTS OF IT ARE, I THINK.

 

 

Q. COULD I HAND YOU THE SWIM PLAN AND YOU COULD TELL

 

 

ME WHICH ONES YOU'RE DIRECTING HIM TO USE?

 

 

A. THE RAW DATA WOULD NOT BE, I DON'T BELIEVE, IN THE

 

 

SWIM PLAN.

 

 

Q. I'M HANDING YOU -- LET ME JUST PUT IT ON THE

 

 

RECORD -- THE SUPPORTING INFORMATION DOCUMENT AND

 

 

THE APPENDICES. TAKE YOUR CHOICE WHERE YOU THINK

 

 

THIS DATA MIGHT APPEAR.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. WELL, THE RAW DATA -- MY CURSORY VIEW OF THESE

 

 

DOCUMENTS---

 

 

Q. WELL, TAKE YOUR TIME, BECAUSE WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT

 

 

YOU'RE BUILDING THIS MODEL -- THE DATA YOU'RE

 

 

BUILDING IT FROM, BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT THIS IS

 

 

SOMETHING THAT WILL BE USED. AT LEAST FROM THE

 

 

NAMES YOU'RE NAMING AND THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING

ABOUT, I WOULD ASSUME THIS IS GOING TO BE USED IN

OUR SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDINGS ---

 

 

A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE---

 

 

Q. --- AND NOBODY'S SAYING NO AROUND THE TABLE,

 

 

SO ---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 426

 

 

 

 

A. --- TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IT WILL NOT BE. THIS IS

 

 

SOME---

 

 

Q. THEY'RE NOT SAYING NO, DR. RICHARDSON. THAT'S A

 

 

PRETTY GOOD SIGN, IT'S FREE AIM---

 

 

A. WELL, TO MY---

 

 

Q. --- THERE ARE CLUES HERE.

 

 

A. THIS PROJECT IS PRIMARILY BEING RUN, FIRST OF ALL,

 

 

AS A GRADUATE STUDENT PROJECT TO BASICALLY DO A

 

 

Ph.D. DISSERTATION ON---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- SO---

 

 

Q. WELL, I MEAN, IF MR. GREEN OR MR. BURGESS WANT TO

 

 

TELL ME THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TESTIFY FROM THE

 

 

BASIS OF IT, OR THAT DR. RECKHOW ISN'T GOING TO,

 

 

THEN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T NEED TO GO SO FAR DOWN

 

 

THIS ROAD---

 

 

A. WELL, I---

 

 

Q. --- THEY'RE LETTING ME CHASE A BLIND ALLEY, IS WHAT

 

 

IT LOOKS LIKE. BUT, ANYWAY---

 

 

A. IN ANY CASE, THE RAW DATA TO SUPPORT THIS IS NOT

 

 

HERE -- SOME OUTPUT DATA. THE ONE THING I DO

 

 

KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ONE OF OUR EARLY MEETINGS

 

 

WAS, I GAVE SONG A CHARGE, COULD YOU TAKE THE

 

 

ORIGINAL DATA FROM THE SWIM PLAN, APPENDIX B, FOR

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 427

 

 

EXAMPLE, LIKE, ON PAGE -- THIS IS NOT THE -- I'M

 

 

NOT GIVING YOU THE -- ANYTHING MORE THAN A TEST

 

 

THAT I GAVE HIM TO SEE IF HE COULD START WITH,

 

 

COULD YOU REPRODUCE, FOR EXAMPLE, ON PAGE B-148---

 

 

Q. I DON'T NEED HIS TEST. I NEED THE ACTUAL DATA,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

A. BUT IT'S -- THE DATA'S NOT HERE.

 

 

Q. IT'S NOT IN THE SWIM PLAN?

 

 

A. NO. THIS IS THE OUTPUT; THIS IS NOT THE DATA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. TELL ME WHICH DATA AT THE

 

 

DISTRICT YOU DIRECTED HIM TO USE, OR SUGGESTED

 

 

THAT HE USE, OR APPROVE THAT HE USE -- THE NAME

 

 

OF IT.

 

 

A. OH. THE DATA WOULD BE THE INFLOWS AND OUTFLOWS,

 

 

ALL OF THOSE FROM WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, THE

 

 

RAINFALL DATA.

 

 

Q. FROM 2A?

 

 

A. FROM 2A. ANY SURFACE WATER DATA THAT WE COULD

 

 

OBTAIN IN TERMS OF SURFACE WATER QUALITY; SOME OF

 

 

MY DATA THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE RELATED TO

 

 

THE---

 

 

Q. WHICH OF YOUR DATA?

 

 

A. SOME SURFACE WATER QUALITY. HE IS NOW PERUSING

 

 

THAT AT THIS POINT, I BELIEVE, BUT I'M NOT SURE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 428

 

 

 

 

WHAT HE'S GOING TO INCLUDE OR NOT INCLUDE OF MY

 

 

DATA.

 

 

Q. IS YOURS ORTHO? IS YOUR SURFACE WATER

 

 

ORTHOPHOSPHATE?

 

 

A. IT IS MOSTLY ORTHO.

 

 

Q. AND THEIRS IS TOTAL PHOSPHORUS FOR THE DISTRICT --

 

 

THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT?

 

 

A. I THINK IT'S BOTH, IN SOME CASES. THERE ARE

 

 

SOME -- IT'S BOTH. SO---

 

 

Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE? YOUR SURFACE WATER QUALITY,

 

 

ORTHOPHOSPHATE DATA. WHAT ELSE?

 

 

A. WELL, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ALL ASPECTS OF OUR

 

 

DATA. WE MAY LOOK AT SOME PORE WATER DATA. WE

 

 

MAY LOOK -- WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ACCRETION

 

 

INFORMATION. SO, WE ARE TRYING TO BASICALLY GET

 

 

A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREA 2A FUNCTIONS, AND SEE IF WE CAN DEVELOP---

 

 

Q. IS THIS PART OF YOUR -- ARE YOU GOING TO BASE PART

 

 

OF YOUR LANDSCAPE REVIEW ON THIS OR IS THIS A

 

 

SEPARATE -- TOTALLY SEPARATE ISSUE?

 

 

A. IT'S ONLY ONE PIECE. I DOUBT -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T

 

 

KNOW IF IT WILL BE FAR ENOUGH ALONG TO DO ANYTHING

 

 

WITH AT THAT TIME. AND THIS IS TRULY A Ph.D.

 

 

DISSERTATION.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 429

 

 

Q. WHAT PARAMETERS IS THE MODEL GOING TO TRY AND

 

 

PREDICT?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE CURRENT VERSION IS GOING TO

 

 

PREDICT. THAT'S UNDER DR. RECKHOW'S CHARGE. WE

 

 

ORIGINALLY -- I THINK THE ORIGINAL ONE THAT I TOLD

 

 

YOU WAS TO LOOK AT SURFACE WATER QUALITY IN

 

 

RELATIONSHIP TO WATER CHARACTERISTICS.

 

 

Q. DID YOU TALK ABOUT THE DEPTH AND FLOW?

 

 

A. DEPTH AND FLOW; INFLOW, OUTFLOW, RAINFALL.

 

 

Q. SO -- JUST SO I'M STRAIGHT, YOUR IMPORTANT

 

 

MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY

 

 

DETERMINED BASICALLY INVOLVE FOCUSING ON THE TYPE

 

 

OF RESEARCH AND THE TYPE OF MODELING THAT YOU

 

 

BELIEVE WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR THE MANAGEMENT

 

 

OF 2A, REALLY?

 

 

A. YES. IT'S GOING TO BE BASED, TO A LARGE DEGREE,

 

 

ON OUR -- WHEN WE FINISH OUR FIVE- TO SIX-YEAR

 

 

STUDY, WE EXPECT TO HAVE SPECIFIC MANAGEMENT

 

 

RECOMMENDATIONS THAT COULD INCLUDE, AS YOU KNOW,

 

 

FROM THE DOSING STUDY, WHAT MIGHT BE INAPPROPRIATE

 

 

RANGE OF VALUES. WE MAY HAVE THE EFFECTS OF MASS

 

 

LOADING, THE STORAGE CAPACITIES.

 

 

IT'S HOPED THAT WE WILL HAVE SOME HYDROLOGY

 

 

INFORMATION. AND IT IS ALSO -- AND, AS I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 430

 

 

MENTIONED TO YOU, IT WAS HOPED TO HAVE A FIREWATER

 

 

NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY, WHICH WE OBVIOUSLY

 

 

HAVE NOT DONE AT THIS POINT, BUT I THINK THAT IS

 

 

CRITICAL TO UNDERSTANDING HOW TO MANAGE THESE

 

 

SYSTEMS.

 

 

Q. YOU SAID APPROPRIATE RANGE OF VALUES. FOR WHAT?

 

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

 

 

A. NUTRIENT VALUES, PRIMARILY, LOOKING AT BOTH THE

 

 

GRADIENT STUDY, THE FERTILIZER STUDY AND THE

 

 

DOSING STUDY, TO TRY TO PIECE TOGETHER THE

 

 

INFORMATION TO COME UP WITH WHAT I THINK WOULD BE

 

 

PREDICTIVE OR REPRESENTATIVE VALUES FOR HOW THE

 

 

SYSTEM RESPONDS TO THOSE, BOTH LOADS AND

 

 

CONCENTRATION.

 

 

Q. TOWARD WHAT GOAL, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. TOWARDS WHAT GOAL?

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. TO TRY TO DETERMINE, PROBABLY IN ONE CASE, A DOSE

 

 

RESPONSE; IN ONE CASE, TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE

 

 

LEVELS THAT WOULD CAUSE A CHANGE -- A SIGNIFICANT

 

 

CHANGE IN THE SYSTEM.

 

 

Q. BUT TOWARD WHAT GOAL? WHY DO WE EVEN CARE WHAT

 

 

LEVELS ARE COMING IN? I MEAN, I THINK BEFORE

 

 

LUNCH, WE CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT WE HAD

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 431

 

 

 

 

SOME AREAS THAT HAD CHANGED BECAUSE OF NUTRIENT

 

 

ENRICHMENT, BUT THEY HAD BENEFITS AND THEY HAD

 

 

VALUE AS HABITAT, AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE

 

 

ANYTHING NECESSARILY INAPPROPRIATE OR NEGATIVE

 

 

ABOUT THOSE. I MEAN, IT SEEMED TO ME FROM OUR

 

 

DISCUSSION THIS WAS OKAY, THAT A HUNDRED AND FIFTY

 

 

PARTS PER BILLION TOTAL PHOSPHORUS WAS COMING IN,

 

 

THAT IT HAD CAUSED CERTAIN CHANGES IN THE SYSTEM

 

 

AND SO WHAT?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I JOIN IN THAT TOO.

 

 

A. YEAH. I'M NOT SURE -- THE QUESTION. I DONFT

 

 

BELIEVE I SAID---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: "SO WHAT."

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) "SO WHAT"-;'

 

 

A. SO WHAT, OR A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION

 

 

WAS GOOD OR ANYTHING.

 

 

Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THOSE NUTRIENT LOADS NEED TO

 

 

BE REDUCED FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY?

 

 

A. I THINK I SAID FAIRLY CLEARLY THAT I THOUGHT THAT

 

 

I HAD RECOMMENDED EARLY ON THAT THE BMP SHOULD BE

 

 

PUT IN PLACE AND THAT PHOSPHORUS SHOULD BE REDUCED

 

 

TO AS LOW A LEVEL AS POSSIBLE TO THE SYSTEM, BUT

 

 

WHAT LEVEL THAT IS, I DO NOT KNOW.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 432

 

 

Q. OKAY. THAT'S THE -- SO LOWERING THE NUTRIENT

 

 

INPUT, YOU WILL AGREE, IS AN APPROPRIATE GOAL?

 

 

A. YES, I AGREE THAT'S A GOAL.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT WE ARE IN DISAGREEMENT ABOUT IS TO

 

 

WHAT LEVEL IT SHOULD BE LOWERED.

 

 

A. I DON'T PARTICULARLY DISAGREE. I DON'T KNOW THE

 

 

ANSWER TO THAT AT THE MOMENT, BUT WHEN WE FIND OUT

 

 

WHAT WE THINK THE RANGE IS, WE MAY THEN BE IN

 

 

DISAGREEMENT. I'M NOT SURE. WE MAY BE IN

 

 

AGREEMENT.

 

 

Q. BUT I ALSO UNDERSTOOD YOU TO SAY BEFORE LUNCH THAT

 

 

YOU FEEL NO URGENCY OR IMMEDIACY TO OBTAINING THIS

 

 

ANSWER?

 

 

A. WELL, I EXPECT TO DO IT WITHIN THE TIME FRAME IN

 

 

WHICH THE ORIGINAL GRANT WAS SET UP. I DON'T

 

 

EXPECT -- THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS DOES NOT,

 

 

UNFORTUNATELY, BEND TO THE LEGAL SYSTEM VERY

 

 

EASILY. SO, AS WE GET INFORMATION ALONG THE WAY,

 

 

WE WILL PROVIDE IT WITH THE ESTIMATOR -- THE SORT

 

 

OF COMFORT INTERVALS WE HAVE AROUND IT, AND I

 

 

THINK WE HAVE DONE SO. WHEN WE DON'T HAVE IT, I

 

 

THINK THAT'S WHERE THE HESITANCY IS, AS IT WOULD

 

 

BE FOR MOST SCIENTISTS, IS SIMPLY GUESS AS TO WHAT

 

 

IT WOULD BE. SO, I THINK WE ARE MAKING EXTREMELY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 433

 

 

 

 

GOOD PROGRESS TOWARDS THIS.

 

 

Q. AND WHY IS IT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD

 

 

REDUCE THESE NUTRIENT INPUTS OR PHOSPHORUS --

 

 

SPECIFICALLY, PHOSPHORUS INPUTS TO, LET'S SAY,

 

 

WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, FOR EXAMPLE?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I THINK I SAID, TO 2A, YOU KNOW, AS I

 

 

SAID, I'M NOT SURE IF YOU REDUCED THEM

 

 

SIGNIFICANTLY, IT WOULD MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE IN

 

 

THE LONG RUN TO THE SYSTEM RIGHT NOW. I THINK YOU

 

 

COULD CONTINUE -- I THINK THEY SHOULD BE REDUCED

 

 

FROM THE SOURCE IN THE SENSE THAT THE AGRICULTURAL

 

 

COMMUNITY PROBABLY HAS THE ABILITY TO DO SOME OF

 

 

THAT, AND THEY COULD DO IT WITHIN SITE. AND

 

 

THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A VERY LARGE PUBLIC PERCEPTION

 

 

IN THE NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE IDEA

 

 

THAT, IN FACT, THESE SYSTEMS ARE BEING DISTURBED

 

 

BY THIS.

 

 

Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THESE SYSTEMS ARE DISTURBED BY THE

 

 

NUTRIENT INPUT?

 

 

I BELIEVE THERE IS SOME ALTERATION THAT TAKES

 

 

PLACE, YES.

Q. IS THAT A DISTURBANCE?

 

 

A. IT COULD BE CONSIDERED DISTURBANCE IN SOME CASES.

 

 

Q. DO YOU CONSIDER IT A DISTURBANCE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 434

 

 

 

 

 

 

A. YES. BUT, AS I MENTIONED, I DON'T THINK IT'S A

 

 

MAJOR PROBLEM. IT'S A MUCH -- IT'S A LOCALIZED

 

 

PROBLEM.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID TODAY

 

 

THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NUTRIENTS SHOULD BE

 

 

CONTROLLED AT THE SOURCE. IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS -- ONE OF THE

 

 

WAYS TO DO THAT IS TO CONTROL IT AT THE SOURCE.

 

 

THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVE LIMITED POSSIBILITIES

 

 

OF HOW TO DO THAT. THAT RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE

 

 

DONE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IN YOUR OPINION, HAS THAT RESEARCH BEEN

 

 

DONE?

 

 

A. TO DO IT AT THE SOURCE?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. I'M NOT AWARE OF -- I KNOW OF SOME ONGOING

 

 

STUDIES, BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY ANSWERS THAT

 

 

HAVE COME OUT OF THAT RESEARCH.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU DONE, IN THE PAST -- IN ANY OF YOUR

 

 

OTHER EXPERIENCE OR EVEN IN THIS, IN LOOKING AT

 

 

IT, HAVE YOU DONE ANY THOUGHT ABOUT ECONOMIES OF

 

 

SCALE WHERE IT MIGHT BE CHEAPER TO DO IT IN MAYBE

 

 

ONE LARGE AREA AS OPPOSED TO AT EVERY SOURCE

 

 

OUTPUT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 435

 

 

 

 

A. YES. I'M NOT SURE IF I UNDERSTAND, THOUGH. I

 

 

DON'T THINK I'D RECOMMEND THAT IT BE DONE AT EVERY

 

 

SOURCE, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EVERY FIELD. I'm

 

 

NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SOURCE." DO YOU MEAN

 

 

EVERY SINGLE FIELD IT WOULD BE DONE AT, OR EVERY

 

 

SINGLE---

 

 

Q. WELL, WHERE DO YOU RECOMMEND? WHEN YOU SAY "AT

 

 

THE SOURCE," I GUESS I THINK OF THE INDIVIDUAL

 

 

LANDOWNER BECOMING RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DISCHARGE.

 

 

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT REGIONAL TREATMENT SYSTEMS?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING

 

 

WITHIN REGIONS. IT COULD BE SOMETHING IN -- IF IT

 

 

WAS AN URBAN AREA THAT WAS DOING SOMETHING, THEY

 

 

WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A REGIONAL SYSTEM. IF IT WAS

 

 

AN AGRICULTURAL AREA, THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE

 

 

SOMETHING THAT WAS THERE.

 

 

ALL RIGHT. AND I ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED

 

 

THIS TO THE INDUSTRY---

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.

 

 

Q. --- FOLLOWING YOUR INITIAL RECOMMENDATIONS EARLY

 

 

ON, BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU HAD RECOMMENDED THIS IN

 

 

THE VERY BEGINNING, DID YOU NOT?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YEAH.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 436

 

 

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. I THINK I SAID I RECOMMENDED THAT THEY LOOK INTO

 

 

BMP'S TO REDUCE THE SOURCE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT I MEANT WHEN I SAID

 

 

YOU HAD RECOMMENDED IT. HAVE YOU CONTINUED OR AT

 

 

ANY TIME SINCE THEN RECOMMENDED IT AGAIN TO THE

 

 

INDUSTRY?

 

 

A. THE BMP'S?

 

 

Q. YES.

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. AND YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED THAT THEY TRY TO CONTROL

 

 

THEIR NUTRIENTS AT THE SOURCE?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. AND WHAT HAVE THEY SAID?

 

 

A. THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO AS FAST AS THEY POSSIBLY

 

 

CAN.

 

 

Q. AND HOW DO YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO?

 

 

A. WELL, I BELIEVE THEY'VE STARTED MONITORING ALL

 

 

OF THEIR OUTPUT SITES SO THEY GET A BETTER HANDLE

 

 

ON THE FORMS AND SOURCES OF PHOSPHORUS. I BELIEVE

 

 

THEY'VE STARTED TO UNDERTAKE A SERIES OF RESEARCH

 

 

PROJECTS TO LOOK AT SOME REMEDIAL METHODS. I

 

 

THINK THEY ARE LOOKING AT WATER PUMPING AND

 

 

REROUTING OF WATER. I---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 437

 

 

 

 

Q. REGARDING WATER PUMPING AND REROUTING OF WATER,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY WIDESPREAD

 

 

USE OF WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITHIN THE EAA?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THERE MAY BE A NETWORK. I HAVE NOT

 

 

PERSONALLY SEEN THEM NOR HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH

 

 

THEM.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT CONTROL OF

 

 

THE WATER TABLE WITHIN THE EAA MIGHT BE ONE OF THE

 

 

PRIMARY BMPIS THAT THEY COULD USE TO CONTROL THEIR

 

 

NUTRIENT OUTPUT?

 

 

A. BY RAISING -- ARE YOU ASKING ME TO RAISE AND LOWER

 

 

THE WATER LEVELS WITHIN THE EAA? IS THAT WHAT---

 

 

Q. WELL, TO RAISE THEM AND NOT TO PUMP AS MUCH, NOT

 

 

TO DISCHARGE AS MUCH, TO PUMP AS LITTLE AS

 

 

POSSIBLE.

 

 

A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED AT

 

 

THAT. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW, BUT, I MEAN, THAT'S A

 

 

POSSIBILITY.

 

 

Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT MIGHT BE A MAJOR BMP THAT

 

 

COULD BE USED?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK IF YOU -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THEY

 

 

ARE UNDER RESTRICTIONS. THEY CANNOT REDUCE FLOWS

 

 

BY MORE THAN A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE. SO, I THINK

 

 

THERE MUST BE A BOUND WHICH THEY CAN DO THAT ONLY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 438

 

 

 

 

IN WHAT THEY---

 

 

Q. SO, YOU THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT EXCEEDING

 

 

THEIR TWENTY PERCENT (20%), AND SO THEY ARE NOT

 

 

HOLDING BACK WATER?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU KNOW, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I DON'T -- I'M NOT PRIVY TO ANY INFORMATION ON THE

 

 

EAA. I'VE NOT BEEN AT THE EAA IN -- OTHER THAN

 

 

PROBABLY BEING CLOSE, AND I'VE NOT BEEN IN THE

 

 

FIELD IN THE EAA IN MAYBE TWO YEARS.

 

 

Q. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE FIELD EVER IN

 

 

THE EAA?

 

 

A. MAYBE A HALF A DOZEN.

 

 

Q. SIX TIMES IN---

 

 

A. MAYBE. SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

 

 

Q. --- THREE AND A HALF YEARS? HAVE YOU EVER

 

 

DISCUSSED THESE WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITH THE

 

 

INDUSTRY?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY ACTUAL BMPIS THAT YOU

 

 

KNOW FOR A FACT ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED?

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I THINK I WAS AT THAT MEETING,

 

 

THE SAGE MEETING WHERE SOME BMPIS WERE PROPOSED.

 

 

AND I, QUITE FRANKLY, CAN'T TELL YOU WHICH ONES

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 439

 

 

 

 

THEY WERE IMPLEMENTING AND WHICH ONES THEY WERE

 

 

PROPOSING TO IMPLEMENT. BUT THERE WERE A NUMBER

 

 

LISTED. I BELIEVE FOREST IZUNO MENTIONED AT ONE

 

 

OF THE MEETINGS -- I QUITE OFTEN GET

 

 

PRESENTATIONS, AS YOU KNOW, TO THE EVERGLADES

 

 

PROTECTION DISTRICT. AND HE QUITE OFTEN COMPLAINS

 

 

ABOUT FOLLOWING ME, I GUESS. BUT HE ALSO, THEN --

 

 

HE QUITE OFTEN TALKS ABOUT THE PROJECTS THAT HE

 

 

HAS AND SOME BMP'S AND MATERIALS AND THINGS

 

 

THEY'RE DOING.

 

 

Q. THESE ARE PROPOSALS, THOUGH. THESE ARE NOT THINGS

 

 

THAT YOU KNOW ARE ACTUALLY BEING IMPLEMENTED?

 

 

A. MY LAST UNDERSTANDING IS, IN A MEETING I MADE

 

 

AT A PRESENTATION I MADE IN NOVEMBER, HE WAS

 

 

THERE TALKING ABOUT -- THIS IS A RECOLLECTION

 

 

THAT HE HAD IN PLACE THESE RECORDERS AND THEY

 

 

WERE DOING COLLECTIONS, AND HAD BEEN DOING

 

 

COLLECTIONS.

 

 

Q. I WOULD LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT THAT WAS

 

 

PRODUCED AMONG YOUR FILES---

 

 

WITNESS: WOULD YOU LIKE THESE BACK?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: SURE.

 

 

WITNESS: JUST GIVE ME SOME BREATHING

 

 

ROOM OVER HERE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 440

 

 

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. THIS IS A RESEARCH NEWS BULLETIN FROM OUR SCHOOL

 

 

OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW THE APPROXIMATE DATE OF THIS? I DONFT

 

 

THINK IT'S ON HERE ANYWHERE, THAT I COULD -- MAYBE

 

 

I JUST DIDN'T LOOK HARD ENOUGH, BUT I COULDN'T

 

 

FIND IT.

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. IT'S SEVERAL YEARS OLD.

 

 

Q. WOULD IT HAVE COME OUT IN 188, BECAUSE IT MENTIONS

 

 

THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED A THREE HUNDRED AND

 

 

THIRTY-ONE THOUSAND ($331,000.00) GRANT FROM THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.

 

 

A. IT WOULDN'T BE '88, THEN.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN '89?

 

 

A. I THINK IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETIME IN 189, AT

 

 

THE EARLIEST.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU MET WITH MR. WEDGWORTH IN LATE

 

 

SUMMER, VERY EARLY FALL OF 188, BUT YOU DIDNFT GET

 

 

YOUR GRANT UNTIL SOMETIME INTO 189?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. WHEN IN 189 DID YOU RECEIVE THE GRANT?

 

 

A. THE FIRST QUARTER -- SOMETIME IN THE FIRST

 

 

QUARTER. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 441

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WAS IT FOR THIS AMOUNT? IS THIS AMOUNT

 

 

ACCURATE?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE THIS ARTICLE?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MARK THIS AS

 

 

RICHARDSON NUMBER 7, IS IT?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 7 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

A. DID I SEE THIS ARTICLE?

 

 

Q. DID YOU SEE IT WHEN IT CAME OUT?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. IS IT ACCURATE? WAS THE ARTICLE ACCURATE? DID

 

 

YOU READ IT BEFORE IT WAS PRINTED?

 

 

A. MARY MATTHEWS, WHO IS OUR PUBLICATION EDITOR,

 

 

WROTE THIS ARTICLE, AND HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH ME.

 

 

I MAY HAVE -- IN FACT, I THINK I DID -- I PROVIDED

 

 

HER SOME PICTURES. I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE THE MAP

 

 

CAME FROM, BUT I MAY HAVE ALSO PROVIDED THAT. BUT

 

 

SHE -- SHE BASICALLY WROTE THIS AS A NEWS ITEM,

 

 

WHICH SHE DOES FOR -- IF YOU LOOK AT OUR FORMS FOR

 

 

OUR POLICY CENTER ON ECONOMICS, AND OUR FORESTRY

 

 

CENTER, AND THE WHOLE SERIES OF OUR CENTERS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 442

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. IS THIS LIKE A DUKE PUBLICATION THAT

 

 

IS---

 

 

A. IT'S A QUARTERLY---

 

 

Q. --- SENT AROUND?

 

 

A. --- PUBLICATION FOR THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

 

 

Q. IS IT SENT AROUND TO THE ALUMNI?

 

 

A. IT'S SENT OUT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, TO THREE TO FIVE

 

 

THOUSAND PEOPLE---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- ALUMNI, CONTRIBUTORS, FRIENDS.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. IT PRESENTS IN HERE THAT YOU HAVE SAID

 

 

THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING LET'S LOOK ON

 

 

THE FAR RIGHT COLUMN, THE MIDDLE THAT YOU'RE

 

 

GOING TO LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS

 

 

OF CHANGED HYDROPERIOD AND INCREASED NUTRIENT

 

 

LOADINGS, THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN QUANTIFIED.

 

 

THIS WAS IN '89.

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. AND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER THREE MAJOR

 

 

QUESTIONS: WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF INCREASED

 

 

NUTRIENTS IN WATER PUT -- INPUTS ON THE NATIVE

 

 

PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS;

 

 

TWO, WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM NUTRIENT STORAGE

 

 

CAPACITY; AND, THREE, HOW CAN WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 443

 

 

 

 

BE IMPROVED. ARE THOSE STILL THE SAME QUESTIONS

 

 

THAT YOU'RE SEEKING TO ANSWER?

 

 

A. FOR THE -- THOSE COVER THE GENERAL OVERVIEW OF THE

 

 

QUESTIONS.

 

 

Q. AND I TAKE IT THAT, AT PRESENT, YOU ONLY PARTIAL

 

 

ANSWERS TO ANY OF THESE -- IS THAT ACCURATE -- THE

 

 

ONES YOU'VE GIVEN ME OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS?

 

 

A. RIGHT. I'M SURE WE'LL GET INTO MORE DETAILS ON

 

 

SOME OF THESE, BUT WE HAVE COLLECTED AND ARE NOW

 

 

SUMMARIZING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF INFORMATION,

 

 

ESPECIALLY ON THOSE QUESTIONS.

 

 

Q. WILL THERE BE ANOTHER REPORT, OTHER THAN THE '92

 

 

ANNUAL REPORT, THAT WILL HAVE MORE ANSWERS IN IT,

 

 

IN THE NEAR FUTURE?

 

 

A. NOT IN THE NEAR FUTURE. I MEAN, THERE WILL BE

 

 

SOME QUARTERLY REPORTS AS THEY'RE DUE, AND THERE

 

 

WILL BE SOME PUBLICATIONS THAT WILL BE COMING

 

 

FORTH.

 

 

Q. LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THESE QUARTERLY REPORTS. I

 

 

REALLY HAVE A QUESTION ON THOSE. I HAVE A COUPLE

 

 

OF QUARTERLY REPORTS HERE THAT WERE PRODUCED AMONG

 

 

YOUR EXPERT DOCUMENTS, SO I WON'T BE PASSING THESE

 

 

OUT. THEY'RE JANUARY 1992 AND SEPTEMBER 1992.

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 444

 

 

 

 

Q. THOSE WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. DO YOU

 

 

RECALL WHY?

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T THE FAINTEST IDEA WHY.

 

 

Q. WELL---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WELL, I THINK -- FOR

 

 

THE RECORD, I THINK THAT I WROTE YOU A

 

 

LETTER, SUZAN, AND SAID THOSE ARE THE

 

 

LETTER -- THOSE ARE THE DOCUMENTS THAT

 

 

CURTIS HAS IDENTIFIED FOR ME AS CONTAINING

 

 

DATA, WHICH HE WILL CONSIDER IN FORMING HIS

 

 

EXPERT OPINIONS.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THE QUARTERLY REPORTS DON'T

 

 

CONTAIN DATA, DO THEY, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. VERY LITTLE. THEY WOULD HAVE MOSTLY UPDATES ON

 

 

PROJECTS THAT WOULD SAY THAT NUTRIENT SOIL SAMPLES

 

 

ARE CONTINUING TO BE ANALYZED, AND WE'VE COMPLETED

 

 

THE WATER SAMPLES. THEY WOULD -- THEY MAY HAVE A

 

 

FEW, WHAT I WOULD CALL, TIDBITS.

 

 

Q. ARE THEY -- ARE QUARTERLY REPORTS JUST MOSTLY,

 

 

LIKE, REPORT CARDS YOU SEND BACK TO THE CLIENT

 

 

I'M STILL WORKING ON YOUR PROJECT; THIS IS WHAT

 

 

I'M DOING?

 

 

A. BY AND LARGE. THERE MAY BE AN OCCASIONAL -- WELL,

 

 

IT DOES TWO THINGS FOR THEM. IT KEEPS THEM UP TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 445

 

 

 

 

 

 

WHAT WE'RE DOING ON PROJECTS. IT ALSO NOW -- AT

 

 

THE REQUEST OF THE EPD, I BELIEVE -- IN THE

 

 

QUARTERLY REPORTS, IT SAYS, IF WE GAVE ANY

 

 

PRESENTATIONS OR PUBLICATIONS, WE ARE TO INCLUDE

 

 

THOSE IN THE BACK. AND WE'VE TRIED TO NOW DO

 

 

THAT. SO, IT'S A LITTLE MORE FORMALIZED WAY

 

 

FOR THEM TO BE KEPT INFORMED OF WHAT'S GOING ON,

 

 

AS THE EPD HAS ASKED THAT THEY AT LEAST BE

 

 

NOTIFIED NOW BEFORE WE -- IF WE WERE GOING TO

 

 

MAKE PRESENTATIONS, THEY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW

 

 

ABOUT IT.

 

 

Q. I GUESS WHEN WE GET TO THOSE IN TIME, I WOULD ASK

 

 

YOU TO LOOK AT THEM AND SEE WHAT CLUES AS TO WHAT

 

 

YOU BELIEVE YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL YOUR CLIENTS,

 

 

BECAUSE THEY WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. I

 

 

ASSUME THERE'S SOMETHING -- SOME TIDBIT IS IN

 

 

THERE THAT I NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO, BUT I DON'T

 

 

KNOW. I'M -- THEY JUST -- THE TIDBITS WEREN'T

 

 

LEAPING OUT.

 

 

WHAT STUDIES ARE YOU DOING TO STUDY THE

 

 

EFFECT OF INCREASED WATER INPUTS ON THE NATIVE

 

 

PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREAS? THAT WAS UNDER NUMBER ONE, YOUR MAJOR

 

 

QUESTIONS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 446

 

 

 

 

A. WELL, WHEN WE ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED THIS PROJECT,

 

 

AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAD THE IDEA TO DO A

 

 

FIRE-WATER-NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY. AND SO

 

 

THERE WERE SOME IDEAS OF WHAT WE WOULD DO IN TERMS

 

 

OF PUTTING WATER INTO THE SYSTEM. ONE, IT BECAME

 

 

VERY COMPLEX. AND TWO, WE DECIDED TO LOOK AT

 

 

THESE PROBLEM AREAS AS INDIVIDUALS. IN OTHER

 

 

WORDS, LOOK AT, SAY, PHOSPHORUS AND NITROGEN.

 

 

AND, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, AS FATE WOULD HAVE IT,

 

 

AS SOON AS WE TOOK THIS PROJECT, FOR THE FIRST TWO

 

 

YEARS THAT WE WERE IN THIS PROJECT, WE HAD RECORD

 

 

DROUGHTS. WE HAD NO WATER. I WORKED IN TENNIS

 

 

SHOES. AND SO THE CONCEPT OF SETTING UP A

 

 

HYDROLOGY STUDY TO PUMP WATER INTO AN AREA THAT

 

 

HAD NO WATER TABLE WITHIN FORTY CENTIMETERS TO

 

 

SEVENTY CENTIMETERS OF THE SURFACE WAS PRETTY

 

 

UNREACHABLE.

 

 

SO, I DID ESTABLISH THE DISTURBANCE STUDY AND

 

 

SET THAT UP FAIRLY EARLY. AND THAT STUDY IS NOW

 

 

ONGOING. THAT'S THE RECOLONIZATION WATER DEPTH

 

 

STUDY. I SET UP THE FERTILIZER STUDIES, WHICH HAS

 

 

A WATER COMPONENT TO IT. AND WE DO HAVE PLANS TO

 

 

ACTUALLY -- WE HAVE THE DOSING STUDY, OF COURSE.

 

 

WE HAVE WATER BEING PUMPED AS A CONTROL INTO ONE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 447

 

 

 

 

SYSTEM COMPARED TO NO WATER BEING PUMPED. AND WE

 

 

HAVE FULL INTENTIONS TO GO BACK TO WHERE WE

 

 

STARTED AND LOOK AT WATER AND NUTRIENTS, AND

 

 

ESPECIALLY WATER INPUTS.

 

 

Q. ON YOUR DOSING STUDY, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO TURN

 

 

THAT INTO A STUDY THAT LOOKS AT HYDROLOGY, IN

 

 

ADDITION TO NUTRIENTS, BY CLOSING OFF YOUR

 

 

CHANNELS AND HOLDING THEM AT DIFFERENT WATER

 

 

DEPTHS?

 

 

A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF

 

 

RETROFITTING, BUT IT'S A POSSIBILITY, BECAUSE

 

 

THOSE ARE NOT -- THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE POSITIVE

 

 

PRESSURE -- IN OTHER WORDS, THEY KEEP WATER FROM

 

 

COMING IN, BUT IT -- I'M NOT SURE, IF THE WATER

 

 

GOES DOWN ON THE OUTSIDE, HOW -- THEY'RE NOT

 

 

TOTALLY SEALED, AND---

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU GIVEN THOUGHT TO DOING THAT?

 

 

A. WE'VE GIVEN SOME THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY -- WE

 

 

ACTUALLY HAVE -- IN PLANNING THIS SPRING -- SOME

 

 

THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY DO A HYDROLOGY EXPERIMENT,

 

 

BUT NOT WITH THAT SITE. I'M NOT GOING TO TAMPER

 

 

WITH THAT SITE AT THE PRESENT TIME. IT'S BEEN SO

 

 

DIFFICULT TO GET GOING.

 

 

YOU JUST WANT TO KEEP IT GOING, HUH?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 448

 

 

 

 

A. I WOULD LIKE IT TO JUST KEEP FLOWING.

 

 

Q. TO JUST GO? ALL RIGHT. PHASE ONE, YOU WERE GOING

 

 

TO -- AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE -- REESTABLISH --

 

 

YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK FOR MEANS OF REESTABLISHING

 

 

SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE PLANTS, AND WATER

 

 

IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES THAT WOULD IMPROVE

 

 

WATER QUALITY. HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT?

 

 

A. WHERE ARE YOU NOW?

 

 

Q. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. "IN PHASE ONE OF THIS

 

 

PROJECT, RICHARDSON WILL LOOK AT FACTORS

 

 

RESPONSIBLE FOR CATTAIL EXPANSION AND MEANS OF

 

 

REESTABLISHMENT OF SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE

 

 

PLANTS AND WATER IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES

 

 

THAT WOULD IMPROVE WATER QUALITY AS WELL AS

 

 

MAINTAIN NATIVE SPECIES."

 

 

A. WE HAVE DONE PORTIONS OF THAT WHERE WE HAVE LOOKED

 

 

AT FACTORS RELATED TO CATTAIL. WE HAVE -- AS I

 

 

SAID, WE HAVE A VEGETATION EXPANSION STUDY. THE

 

 

FERTILIZER STUDY WAS AN ATTEMPT TO LOOK AT THAT.

 

 

SINCE WE HAVE THREE SITES REPLICATED WITH

 

 

DIFFERENT WATER REGIMES, WE FELT WE COULD GET A

 

 

HANDLE ON THAT. THE---

 

 

HAVE YOU FOUND A MEANS OF REESTABLISHING SAWGRASS

 

 

AND NATIVE PLANTS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 449

 

 

 

 

A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAVE -- IN THE GRADIENT

 

 

STUDY, WE HAVE THOSE TRANSECTS AND -- AND WE

 

 

HAVEN'T REMOVED THE VEGETATION. MOTHER NATURE

 

 

MORE, IN A SENSE, DID THAT BY FIRE AND FREEZING,

 

 

BUT WE HAVE BEEN MONITORING VERY CAREFULLY THE

 

 

REESTABLISHMENT OF SOME OF THOSE PLANT

 

 

COMMUNITIES. AND THE DISTURBANCE STUDY IS SET

 

 

UP TO HAVE KILLED BASICALLY THE NATIVE SEED

 

 

BANK, AND, THEN, BASICALLY TO DETERMINE WHAT

 

 

WOULD AFFECT THE REESTABLISHMENT OF PLANTS IN

 

 

THAT AREA.

 

 

Q. SO YOU'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH ON HOW TO

 

 

REESTABLISH SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVES PLANTS.

 

 

is---

 

 

A. RIGHT.

 

 

Q. ---THAT FAIR?

 

 

A. YEAH, WE'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH. AND WE HAVE

 

 

SOME INFORMATION. BUT I THINK, AS I SAY, IN THE

 

 

NEXT PHASES OF THIS, OUR NEXT -- WE'RE NOW INTO

 

 

THE FOURTH YEAR OF A SIX-YEAR STUDY, SO WE WILL

 

 

START PULLING THIS INFORMATION TOGETHER.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, I JUST WANT TO

 

 

MAKE SURE WHAT YOUR TESTIMONY IS ON FIRE AND

 

 

FROST. WHERE YOU HAVE FIRE AND FROST, AND THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 450

 

 

 

 

SEED BANK IS NOT DESTROYED, DO YOU BELIEVE -- OR,

 

 

IN YOUR OPINION, DOES THE CATTAIL COME BACK, OR

 

 

WILL SAWGRASS REESTABLISH THAT AREA? THE CATTAIL

 

 

SEEDBANK IS STILL THERE.

 

 

A. RIGHT. AND YOU SAY, NOW, IF YOU HAVE FIRE AND

 

 

FROST, OR---

 

 

Q. RIGHT. WE CAN TAKE THEM SEPARATELY. IF YOU HAVE

 

 

ONLY ---

 

 

A. WELL ---

 

 

Q. --- FIRE, WILL THE CATTAIL COME BACK?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: AT THE SAME TIME -- I

 

 

WAS GOING TO ASK YOU.

 

 

A. I THINK TO UNDERSTAND RECOLONIZATION OF ANY SITE,

 

 

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE

 

 

THE ORDER OF WHICH IT HAPPENS. IF YOU HAD FIRE

 

 

AND FROST, IT IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN HAVING FROST

 

 

AND FIRE---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- AND---

 

 

Q. AND WHICH IS WORSE FOR THE CATTAIL, IN YOUR

 

 

OPINION?

 

 

A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE WE'VE HAD A TEST OF BOTH OF

 

 

THOSE, BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS, WE HAD SEVERAL

 

 

SEVERE FROSTS, WHICH KNOCKED BACK THE CATTAIL.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 451

 

 

 

 

Q. IS IT COMING BACK? IS IT REGENERATING IN THOSE

 

 

AREAS?

 

 

A. TO SOME DEGREE, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE CATTAIL IS

 

 

REGENERATING STRONGER THAN THE SAWGRASS?

 

 

A. INITIALLY, THE SITES WERE ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

SAWGRASS AND MAYBE NINETY-NINE PERCENT. AND NOW

 

 

THEY ARE MOVING BACK TOWARDS FIVE PERCENT CATTAIL,

 

 

MAYBE MORE. WE HAVEN'T -- I HAVENFT SEEN THAT

 

 

DATA -- I HAVEN'T ANALYZED THAT LAST BIT OF DATA

 

 

THAT WE TOOK THIS SUMMER. I HAVEN'T SEE IT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WERE THEY BEFORE IN CATTAIL; WHAT

 

 

PERCENTAGE WERE THEY BEFORE?

 

 

A. THE SITES THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?

 

 

Q. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT CATTAIL.

 

 

Q. THESE WERE AT THE FAR NORTHERN END OF WATER

 

 

CONSERVATION AREA 2A?

 

 

A. RIGHT.

 

 

Q. AND WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED BELOW? WHICH STRUCTURE

 

 

ARE WE NOW FINDING SAWGRASS WHERE WE ONCE HAD A

 

 

NEARLY COMPLETE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE,@

 

 

A. WELL, THESE ARE SMALL PLOTS, REMEMBER. I'M NOT

 

 

TALKING IN A HUGE AREA. I'M TALKING ABOUT NEAR

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 452

 

 

 

 

OUR STATION. SO, IT'S ON THE D-LINE. I WOULD

 

 

HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE DATA TO SEE WHICH

 

 

D-LINE.

 

 

Q. SO -- BUT AT THE TOP OF THE D-LINE, WE COULD FIND

 

 

SITES THAT HAD BEEN NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

CATTAIL THAT ARE NOW NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

SAWGRASS?

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. I SAID IN 189 WHEN

 

 

THEY FROZE AND THEN BURNED, THE NEXT YEAR WE HAD

 

 

ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT SAWGRASS COME BACK. AND,

 

 

THEN, WE'VE ANALYZED THOSE SITES SINCE THAT TIME,

 

 

AND I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THE MOST RECENT DATA, BUT I

 

 

THINK THE SECOND YEAR THERE WAS AN INDICATION THAT

 

 

CATTAIL WAS COMING BACK IN AT SOME PERCENTAGE. I

 

 

DON'T REMEMBER THE PERCENTAGE.

 

 

OKAY. BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE NOW, IN 193, IN THOSE

 

 

SITES?

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER?

 

 

I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU ONLY KNOW THE INITIAL RESPONSE?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT. BUT I---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I JUST HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA. I JUST

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 453

 

 

HAVEN'T HAD TIME.

 

 

Q. OKAY. I HAD A QUESTION THAT -- DO THESE SITES

 

 

DOMINATE THE REGION?

 

 

A. WHICH SITES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT---

 

 

Q. THE ONES THAT---

 

 

A. --- THE BURN SITES OR THE---

 

 

Q. WELL, NO, THE ONES THAT YOU'RE SAYING REGENERATED

 

 

IN SAWGRASS THAT PREVIOUSLY WERE A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

CATTAIL.

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT IN DETAIL. MY GUESS WAS

 

 

FROM THE AREA THAT BURNED, IT WAS ONLY A SECTION

 

 

OF THE D-LINE. WE ONLY LOST ONE SECTION. SO, THE

 

 

AREA THAT BURNED WAS ONLY A SMALL PIECE. SO I

 

 

DON'T BELIEVE THEY WOULD DOMINATE THE AREA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, IF I INFER FROM THIS WHAT YOU -- WHAT

 

 

YOU WOULD SAY IS, THAT, IF YOU COULD HAVE A GOOD

 

 

FROST AND THEN GO IN AND BURN, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE

 

 

TO WHAT?

 

 

A. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT IF YOU -- THIS GIVES US

 

 

SOME INDICATION FOR THE FIRST TIME, IN AN AREA

 

 

THAT SHOWS SOIL NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, THAT, IN

 

 

FACT, YOU CAN MANAGE SOME OF THOSE SPECIES. IT

 

 

APPEARS, OBVIOUSLY, THE FROST KNOCKED THE CATTAILS

 

 

BACK---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 454

 

 

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- FIRST. BUT, ALSO, AS THEY MANAGE IN THE NORTH

 

 

WITH CATTAILS, YOU CAN BURN THEM ON SEVERAL

 

 

SUCCESSIONS. THERE ARE CERTAIN WAYS TO PROGRAM

 

 

THAT. THERE MAY VERY WELL BE WAYS IN WHICH YOU

 

 

CAN MANAGE THE CATTAILS AND PRODUCE SAWGRASS WITH

 

 

FIRE.

 

 

Q. IN THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. IN THE EVERGLADES.

 

 

Q. ON THOSE MUCK SOILS?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO.

 

 

Q. YOU COULD HAVE CONTROLLED FIRES THAT WOULD TAKE

 

 

OUT THE CATTAILS SUCCESSFULLY WITHOUT CAUSING THE

 

 

MUCK TO BURN?

 

 

A. WELL, THEY BURN SAWGRASS. WE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN

 

 

OUT THERE A NUMBER OF TIMES WHEN THE STATE WARNS

 

 

US. THEY BURN ALMOST CONTINUALLY. THE FISH AND

 

 

WILDLIFE SERVICE OF STATE OF FLORIDA BURN YEAR

 

 

AFTER YEAR. IN FACT, THEY FEEL, IF FIRE IS NOT

 

 

AN INTEGRAL PART OF THAT COMMUNITY, IT HELPS

 

 

RELEASE NUTRIENTS AND REGENERATE THE SAWGRASS, AND

 

 

SO FIRE IS A VERY INTEGRAL PART. AND SO I WOULD

 

 

SEE VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE OF BURNING SAWGRASS AND

 

 

CATTAIL.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 455

 

 

Q. DO YOU INTEND TO RUN EXPERIMENTS TO SEE IF THIS

 

 

IS, IN FACT, SUCCESSFUL?

 

 

A. THAT'S ONE OF THE HOPES WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IN THE

 

 

VERY NEAR FUTURE.

 

 

Q. ARE YOU GOING DO THAT IN 3B, 2B?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHERE WE'D DO IT. AND WE, OF COURSE,

 

 

WOULD NOT HAVE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO GAIN PERMISSION

 

 

TO DO THAT. WE WOULD NOT BE GOING OUT THERE

 

 

SETTING FIRES. I THINK THAT WOULD CAUSE GREAT

 

 

CONCERN FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

 

 

Q. I THINK YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT. I WOULD ADVISE YOU

 

 

TO CLEAR IT WITH SOMEBODY HIGHER THAN THE FEDERAL

 

 

GOVERNMENT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: BUT NOT AT THE TOP.

MS. PONZOLI: BUT NOT AT THE TOP,

YOU'RE RIGHT.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I HAD ONE MORE QUESTION ON THIS,

 

 

AND I'LIL LET IT GO. WELL, I HAVE TWO MORE

 

 

QUESTIONS. I'M SORRY. THERE'S ANOTHER ONE. I

 

 

HAVE A CONTINUING PROBLEM, DR. RICHARDSON, WITH,

 

 

WHEN YOU SAY YOUR PRIMARY GOAL IS TO MAINTAIN

 

 

BIOTIC DIVERSITY -- I'M GOING TO PUT ASIDE

 

 

ECOSYSTEM FUNCTION BECAUSE I THINK I KNOW WHAT

 

 

YOU'LL SAY -- BUT BIOTIC DIVERSITY IN THE

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 456

 

 

EVERGLADES AND AT THE SAME TIME MANAGE IT AS A

 

 

PERMANENT SINK FOR NUTRIENTS, AND I WOULD LIKE YOU

 

 

TO TELL ME HOW YOU BELIEVE THOSE TWO ARE

 

 

COMPATIBLE.

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF SOME

 

 

MANAGEMENT REGIMES WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED. BUT, AS

 

 

I SAID BEFORE, I THINK FROM SOME OF THE WORK OF

 

 

DR. RADER, THAT THERE'S SOME INDICATION THAT THERE

 

 

IS AN INCREASE IN SOME COMPONENTS OF THE

 

 

ECOSYSTEM. AND IT RELATES TO THE FACT THAT

 

 

PHOSPHORUS AT CERTAIN LEVELS WOULD BE A SUBSIDY,

 

 

WHICH COULD CAUSE AN INCREASE. OUR STUDIES FROM

 

 

THE FERTILIZER STUDY FROM DR. VYMAZAL SHOWS THAT,

 

 

IN FACT, YOU GET CHANGES IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER

 

 

AND DIVERSITY OF SPECIES FROM THE PERIPHYTON. AND

 

 

WE MAY FIND THAT ON THE DOSING STUDY. SO, I THINK

 

 

IT HAS TO DO WITH THE -- OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE TALKING

 

 

ABOUT SOME RELATIVE CONCENTRATION AND THRESHOLD.

 

 

THERE'S NO -- AND, AS LONG AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

A NONTOXIC NUTRIENT MATERIAL, IN A HIGHLY STRESSED

 

 

ENVIRONMENT THAT IS LIMITED FOR THAT NUTRIENT,

 

 

YOU'LL GET AN INCREASE.

 

 

YEAH, BUT, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK THAT'S A VERY

 

 

TROUBLING ANSWER, AND LET ME TELL YOU WHY, BECAUSE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 457

DR. RADER'S WORK WAS IN OPEN WATER, ENRICHED

SITES, WHICH YOU TELL ME YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY, BUT

 

 

YOU WILL CONCEDE ARE VERY SMALL IN THE EVERGLADES.

AND A VERY SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SCIENTISTS

BELIEVE THAT THESE OPEN WATER AREAS ARE CLOSING IN

 

 

WITH THE CATTAILS THAT SURROUND THEM, SO THEY

 

 

DON'T EXIST FOR VERY LONG. SO, WHILE THEY MAY

 

 

HAVE A LOT OF MACROINVERTEBRATES IN THEM FOR THE

 

 

LIMITED PERIOD OF TIME THAT THEY'RE AVAILABLE TO

 

 

THIS SYSTEM, IT'S FAIRLY FAIRLY SHORT DURATION.

 

 

NOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM

 

 

WITH THESE OPEN WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSING IN?

 

 

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT AS AN

 

 

ECOLOGIST IN THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. AM I LOOKING AT THE RATE AT WHICH THOSE OPEN SITES

 

 

ARE CLOSING IN?

 

 

Q. NOT EVEN JUST THE RATE, THE FACT THAT THEY CLOSE

 

 

IN. DO YOU ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE OPEN WATER,

 

 

WITH ENRICHED SITES HAVE A TENDENCY TO CLOSE IN

 

 

THE CATTAILS?

A. I HAVE NOT QUANTIFIED THE OPEN SITES CLOSING IN.

 

 

I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THAT.

 

 

Q. NOW, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QUANTIFYING AND

 

 

ESTABLISHING A RATE AND BEING AWARE OF A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 458

 

 

 

 

PHENOMENON. DO YOU AGREE?

 

 

A. YES, I THINK WE DID.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE OPEN

 

 

WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSE IN IN THE EVERGLADES

 

 

WITH THE CATTAILS AT SOME POINT? NOT AT SOME

 

 

RATE, NOT AT SOME RATE OF INCREASE. I'M NOT GOING

 

 

TO -- I HAVEN'T QUANTIFIED IT AND I DON'T KNOW

 

 

ANYONE WHO HAS. I JUST -- THAT IT HAPPENS.

 

 

A. RIGHT. AT SOME POINT, BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY

 

 

"SOME POINT"?

 

 

Q. YES. I GUESS THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO GO OUT THERE

 

 

AND DO RESEARCH ON, IS WHAT THE RATE OF CLOSING IN

 

 

IS, AND, THEN, WE'LL HAVE THEM ALL CLOSED IN AND

 

 

WE'LL KNOW THE RATE.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: AND THAT'S EXACTLY HOW

 

 

HE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. HE HASN'T

 

 

LOOKED AT IT.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU NEED MORE RESEARCH. IS THAT

 

 

RIGHT?

 

 

A. WELL, I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT PARTICULAR

 

 

QUESTION.

 

 

Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT HAPPENS?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THOSE AREAS TO DO

 

 

THAT. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 459

 

 

 

 

OPEN UP WITH FIRES. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE

 

 

TO CREATE OPEN AREAS BY CHANGING THE WATER LEVELS.

 

 

MY POINT IS, I THINK THE SYSTEMS CAN BE MANAGED.

 

 

THEY ARE BEING MISMANAGED HORRIBLY AT THIS STAGE

 

 

FOR THE EVERGLADES PURPOSES. SO, I MEAN, I THINK

 

 

THAT WE CAN COME UP WITH SOME POSITIVE MANAGEMENT,

 

 

DEPENDING UPON THE GOALS THAT PEOPLE SET FORWARD

 

 

FOR WHAT THEY WANT. I THINK MY RESEARCH AND MY

 

 

TEAM'S RESEARCH WILL HELP PROVIDE SOME OF THAT

 

 

INFORMATION. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE END-ALL.

 

 

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EVERY PIECE, BUT IT WILL

 

 

PROVIDE SOME INFORMATION, ESPECIALLY IF WE GET TO

 

 

DO THE THINGS I THINK THAT ARE APPROPRIATE, THAT

 

 

SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO.

 

 

Q. AND THOSE THINGS THAT YOU THINK ARE APPROPRIATE

 

 

AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO ARE TO OFFER

 

 

THE ENTIRE WATER SUPPLY TO THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. THE DISTRIBUTION PATTERN---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- TO STOP PUTTING WATER IN THE OCEAN; TO FLOW THE

 

 

WATER OVER THE SURFACE RATHER THAN MAKE IT POINT

 

 

SOURCES; TO---

 

 

Q. OVER THE EVERGLADES, TO PUT THE WATER OVER THE

 

 

EVERGLADES? A SHEET FLOW -- IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 460

 

 

SAYING?

 

 

A. TO ESSENTIALLY TRY TO REESTABLISH A NORMAL

 

 

HYDROPERIOD AND DISTRIBUTION OF THE WATER. IT IS

 

 

NOW A SERIES OF HOLDING PONDS.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY MODELING OF THE WATER OF THE

 

 

WHOLE SYSTEM?

 

 

A. I HAVE NOT PUT TOGETHER, IF YOU'RE ASKING, A

 

 

HYDROLOGIC MODEL OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM, NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE WHO IS?

 

 

A. THEY'RE -- I'M SURE THE DISTRICT AND SOME OTHER

 

 

PEOPLE ARE DOING THAT. I BELIEVE I WAS AT SOME

 

 

MEETINGS THAT CARL WALTERS ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER A

 

 

FIRST-CUT MODEL. HE'S AT THE UNIVERSITY OF

 

 

BRITISH COLUMBIA. AND HE PUBLISHED A -- ONE OF

 

 

THE FIRST PIECES ON THAT. I THINK TOM MacVICAR

 

 

WORKED ON SOME PIECES OF THAT AT ONE TIME.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A HYDROLOGIC

 

 

MODEL?

 

 

A. NO. I'VE NOT WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A

 

 

HYDROLOGIC MODEL.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF HIS DOING ONE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE HE'S DOING SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES

 

 

IN TERMS OF NUTRIENTS OR WATER OR SOMETHING, BUT I

 

 

AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HE IS DOING.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 461

 

 

 

 

Q. SO, YOU'VE OFFERED NO ADVICE IN THAT REGARD.

 

 

A. I HAVE OFFERED NO ADVICE. I MAY HAVE SUPPLIED

 

 

REPORTS TO HIM AND---

 

 

Q. YOUR ANNUAL REPORTS?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I WOULD HAVE TO

 

 

GO BACK. I DON'T -- ACTUALLY, I'M NOT EVEN SURE

 

 

WE -- WE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE KEPT RECORDS TO ALL

 

 

THE HUNDREDS OF THOSE THINGS WE SENT OUT, BUT I

 

 

DON'T. SO I CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE -- YOU KNOW,

 

 

PEOPLE WRITE THE CENTER AND ASK FOR ONE, AND LISA

 

 

COMES AND SAYS WE HAVE TO, UNFORTUNATELY, PRODUCE

 

 

ANOTHER FORTY OF THESE HORRIBLE DOCUMENTS. SO, WE

 

 

MAY HAVE PRODUCED -- WE MAY HAVE PRODUCED FOR HIM

 

 

SOME DOCUMENTS, AND PROBABLY THE APPENDICES TO THE

 

 

DATABASE.

 

 

Q. DID YOU PROVIDE ANY DISKS OF WATER QUALITY DATA?

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER OFFHAND. I'M PRETTY SURE WE

 

 

PROVIDED THE APPENDICES. WE MAY HAVE PROVIDED A

 

 

DISK. I'M NOT SURE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I'D HAVE

 

 

TO GO BACK.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT YOU CLEARLY DID NOT PROVIDE ANY

 

 

ECOLOGICAL APPROACH ADVICE?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. ANY ECOLOGICAL APPROACH ADVICE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 462

 

 

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, I MEAN, I THINK I'VE HEARD

 

 

YOU SAY SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS

 

 

THAT YOU APPROACH THESE THINGS AS AN ECOLOGICAL

 

 

ANALYST OR AN ECOLOGICAL -- OR A WETLANDS

 

 

ECOLOGIST, ETCETERA, ETCETERA, ETCETERA. AND I

 

 

THINK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN REGARD TO

 

 

DR. RECKHOWIS MODELING THAT -- AND SONG QIAN---

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. --- QIAN SONG -- THAT YOU'RE PROVIDING ECOLOGICAL

 

 

INPUT. IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. TO DR. RECKHOW?

 

 

Q. NO, NO, NO. TO DR. QIAN SONG -- SONG QIAN.

 

 

A. YES. I HAVE TRIED TO GIVE HIM A BETTER---

 

 

MR. GREEN: COULD WE GET THE RECORD

 

 

STRAIGHT ON THIS, PLEASE?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IT'S SONG QIAN?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: POOR SONG.

WITNESS: POOR SONG.

 

 

A. I HAVE TRIED TO HELP SONG UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS

 

 

OF THE EVERGLADES AND SOMETHING ABOUT PHOSPHORUS.

 

 

AND SO HE COMES IN QUITE OFTEN AND, YOU KNOW, ASKS

 

 

ME QUESTIONS, DOES THIS MAKE SENSE AND THIS MAKE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 463

 

 

 

 

SENSE, AND I PROVIDE HIM WITH WRITTEN MATERIAL AND

 

 

PAPERS TO READ AND SO FORTH.

 

 

Q. BUT YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED THAT TYPE OF ADVICE TO

 

 

MR. GHERINI.

 

 

A. I'M GETTING READY TO ANSWER THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. NOT TO THAT DETAIL. THE ONLY ADVICE THAT I HAVE

 

 

DONE IS MAYBE OVER SEVERAL PHONE CALLS, BUT MOST

 

 

OF THAT WAS SIMPLY WHICH DATA SOURCES MIGHT BE

 

 

AVAILABLE. AND HE MAY HAVE ASKED ME A FEW

 

 

QUESTIONS, BUT NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THE DEGREE THAT

 

 

I'VE DONE WITH SONG.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU'VE HAD A FEW PHONE CALLS WITH MR. GHERINI

 

 

DISCUSSING DATA SETS?

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. I HAVE TO TELL YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK WHEN I

 

 

ASKED IF YOU WERE WORKING WITH MR. GHERINI, YOU

 

 

SAID NO.

 

 

A. WELL, I'M NOT. I DIDN'T EVEN PROVIDE THE DATA

 

 

SETS.

 

 

Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?

 

 

A. I GAVE THEM TO LISA AND SAID JUST, YOU KNOW, GIVE

 

 

THEM OUR DATA. I DO THAT FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 464

 

 

 

 

A. I DON'T CONSIDER THAT, YOU KNOW, A GREAT---

 

 

Q. WORKING WITH HIM. ON THE TELEPHONE, WHAT DID YOU

 

 

DISCUSS?

 

 

A. HE'D ASKED ME, I GOT, I THINK, THE APPENDICES.

 

 

I'M NOT CLEAR AS TO WHAT THIS IS---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- WHAT IS IT? SO I BASICALLY TRIED TO TELL HIM

 

 

WHAT IT IS, SO---

 

 

Q. AND, THEN, WHAT ECOLOGICAL ADVICE DID YOU GIVE HIM

 

 

ON THE TELEPHONE AS TO HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS?

 

 

A. I TOLD HIM IT WAS COMPLEX. GOOD LUCK WITH HIS

 

 

MODEL. THAT'S TRUTHFULLY ABOUT WHAT I TOLD HIM.

 

 

Q. I COULD HAVE TOLD HIM THAT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S TAKE A BREAK FOR

 

 

FIVE MINUTES AND START AGAIN.

 

 

(THEREUPON, A SHORT

 

 

BREAK WAS TAKEN.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU READY?

 

 

WITNESS: I'M READY.

 

 

EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:

 

 

Q. DR. RICHARDSON, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU, WE

 

 

ESTABLISHED IN THE LAST DOCUMENT THAT YOUR FIRST

 

 

GRANT FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS FOR

 

 

THREE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-ONE THOUSAND

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 465

 

 

($331,000.00), AND YOU SAID YOU'RE LOOKING FOR

 

 

THAT PROPOSAL FOR ME, THAT LISA PHELPS MAY BE ABLE

 

 

TO LOCATE IT. IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IF YOU DO FIND THAT, I'D APPRECIATE IT;

 

 

AND ALSO THE JANE RAIKES GREENHOUSE WORK. I

 

 

WOULD LIKE TO HAND YOU A LETTER TO MR. BARBER AND

 

 

ASK YOU IF THIS BASICALLY OUTLINES WHAT YOU

 

 

PROPOSED IN THAT PROPOSAL TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR

 

 

CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. YES, I'VE REVIEWED THIS. THIS IS A LETTER THAT I

 

 

SENT, MAY 9, 1989, TO ED BARBER, PRIMARILY

 

 

BRINGING HIM UP TO SPEED ON SOME OF THE ACTIVITIES

 

 

FROM THAT FIRST GRANT. A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION

 

 

IS STAFFING AND ORGANIZATIONAL. AND IT RELATES

 

 

TO, AS IT SAYS IN THE FIRST PART, TRYING TO

 

 

ESTABLISH WHICH, UNFORTUNATELY, NOW BECOMES

 

 

CONFUSING BUT AT THAT TIME I WAS REFERRING TO

 

 

THAT AS A GRADIENT -- AN EXTENDED GRADIENT MIGHT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 466

 

 

 

 

BE A BETTER WAY TO PUT IT -- A GRADIENT ALL

 

 

THROUGH 2A AND 3A.

 

 

Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GRADIENT AND AN

 

 

EXTENDED GRADIENT?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I SAID, THAT'S WHY I NO LONGER REFER TO

 

 

THAT. THE GRADIENT STUDY, THE ONE THAT I REFER TO

 

 

AS WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A; HAD NOT BEEN SET UP

 

 

AT THAT TIME. THIS WAS SORT OF A REGIONAL

 

 

ANALYSIS OF THE AREAS THAT I COULD GET INTO.

 

 

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

 

 

Q. THIS IS WHERE YOU WENT INTO---

 

 

A. 3 AND 3 AND---

 

 

Q. --- 2 AND 3 AND DOWN NEAR THE PARK---

 

 

A. --- THE PARK.

 

 

Q. AND---

 

 

A. --- AND I WAS TRYING TO GET A HANDLE ON---

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. --- SURVEYING THE AREA FOR MY OWN EDIFICATION TO

 

 

DETERMINE WHAT WAS WHAT.

 

 

Q. I'M FAMILIAR WITH YOUR REGIONAL YOUR FIRST

 

 

REGIONAL EFFORT. IT WAS ONLY A VERY FEW CORES---

 

 

A. VERY FEW CORES---

 

 

Q. --- THAT WERE PULLED.

 

 

A. ---SOME PRELIMINARY WATER SAMPLES. IT WAS JUST

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 467

 

 

FOR ME---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND MY PEOPLE TO GET SOME IDEA RATHER THAN TO

 

 

TRY TO RELY ON---

 

 

Q. YOU REFER ON PAGE 2---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, LET'S MARK THIS

 

 

AS RICHARDSON NUMBER 8, AND THEN WE CAN

 

 

TALK ABOUT IT.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 8 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

(BY MS. PONZOLI) WHILE SHE'S MARKING THAT,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, I HAD ONE MORE QUESTION ABOUT THE

 

 

MODELING. ARE YOU -- HAVE YOU GIVEN DATA TO A

 

 

MODELING EFFORT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND

 

 

UNDER A CASTANZA?

 

 

A. I HAVE NOT.

 

 

Q. YOU HAVE NOT?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT MODELING GOING ON?

 

 

A. I HAVE HEARD FROM SOME PEOPLE THAT BOB CASTANZA

 

 

MAY BE DOING A MODEL.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 468

 

 

 

 

A. I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT, NOR HAVE I DISCUSSED IT

 

 

WITH HIM IN ANY WAY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. THE SECOND PAGE, PARAGRAPH (C), "I HAVE

 

 

MADE TENTATIVE ARRANGEMENTS WITH ESP" -- IS THAT

 

 

ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES AND PERMITTING?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. "FOR HELPING US COLLECT A SECOND SET OF GRADIENT

 

 

SAMPLES DURING JUNE." THESE ARE THESE REGIONAL

 

 

SAMPLES---

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- THAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO?

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. DID THEY HELP YOU COLLECT THE FIRST SET OF

 

 

REGIONAL SAMPLES -- ESP?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME I WENT INTO THE FIELD

 

 

I WENT WITH SAM JOHNSON. SINCE THEY HAD -- I

 

 

THINK IT'S JOHNSON OR JOHNSTON. THAT WAS A PERSON

 

 

WHO WORKED FOR ESP. THEY HAD BEEN COLLECTING

 

 

SAMPLES IN THE FIELD, AND I'M NOT SURE OF THE

 

 

ARRANGEMENTS. I DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I

 

 

TALKED TO ED BARBER. BUT I SAID IT WOULD BE

 

 

HELPFUL IF, FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE COULD GO OUT

 

 

WITH SOMEONE WHO HAD ACTUALLY COLLECTED SOME

 

 

SAMPLES. AND SO THE FIRST TIME, WE MADE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 469

 

 

 

 

 

 

ARRANGEMENTS AND -- AIRBOAT ARRANGEMENTS -- I

 

 

MEAN, I COULD HAVE MADE THESE. BUT, LONG

 

 

DISTANCE, THEY WERE QUITE DIFFICULT TO GET

 

 

EVERYTHING -- I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHO TO CALL --

 

 

AND CONTACT WITH THE MICCOSUKEE INDIANS TO MAKE

 

 

SURE IF WE COULD, YOU KNOW, HAVE ACCESS TO WHAT WE

 

 

NEEDED. AND SO ES&P HAD A PERSON WHO HAD DONE

 

 

SOME OF THAT.

 

 

SO, ON THE FIRST TRIP, WE DID COLLECT SOME

 

 

WATER SAMPLES WITH THEM. WE BASICALLY COLLECTED

 

 

OUR OWN SAMPLES. THEY WENT ALONG AND PRIMARILY --

 

 

I DON'T BELIEVE THEY COLLECTED ANY SAMPLES. WE

 

 

BROUGHT OUR OWN SAMPLING CORES AND WATER SAMPLERS.

 

 

AND THEY MAY HAVE DONE SOME VEGETATION -- GENERAL

 

 

VEGETATION WORK AT THAT TIME. I DON'T REMEMBER

 

 

IT, BUT THEY DIDN'T -- WE BASICALLY COLLECTED OUR

 

 

OWN SAMPLES, AND TOOK THEM BACK FOR OUR OWN

 

 

ANALYSES. SO THEY PRIMARILY WERE LOGISTICS.

 

 

THEY PRIMARILY GOT US CONTACTS WITH THE AIRBOAT

 

 

PEOPLE.

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 470

 

 

 

 

WITNESS: BACK ON THE RECORD.

 

 

A. OKAY, SO, ANYWAYS, ES&P HELPED US WITH THIS. AND

 

 

ALSO WITH THE -- I THINK THEY MAY HAVE MADE THE

 

 

ARRANGEMENTS, THE ORIGINAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR -- OR

 

 

THEY MAY HAVE HAD A HELICOPTER, AS I MENTIONED

 

 

HERE, BECAUSE THE AREA WAS SO DRY WE COULD BARELY

 

 

MOVE TO CERTAIN PORTIONS OF THIS.

 

 

Q. SAM JOHNSON WENT ON THE FIRST TRIP WITH YOU. YOU

 

 

AND CHRIS CRAFT AND SAM JOHNSON AND A HELICOPTER

 

 

PILOT -- IS THAT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE

 

 

FIRST HELICOPTER TRIP?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO. I -- THAT SOUNDS REASONABLE. I

 

 

CAN'T QUITE REMEMBER.

 

 

Q. OKAY. THE SECOND TRIP -- DID MR. LARSON GO WITH

 

 

YOU?

 

 

A. HE MAY VERY WELL HAVE.

 

 

Q. AND WAS HE DOING THE VEGETATION WORK AT THAT

 

 

TIME?

 

 

A. NO, NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. AT LEAST, HE DIDN'T DO

 

 

IT ON THAT TRIP. HE MAY HAVE BEEN DOING IT.

 

 

Q. DID MR. DAVIS GO WITH YOU?

 

 

A. NOW, THERE ARE SEVERAL DAVISES. YOU TALKING ABOUT

 

 

STEVE DAVIS OR JOHN DAVIS?

 

 

Q. JOHN DAVIS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 471

 

 

 

 

A. JOHN DAVIS WAS ALONG ON ONE OF THE EARLY TRIPS, I

 

 

REMEMBER, BECAUSE -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH -- IF

 

 

HE WAS IN THAT ONE OR NOT. I REMEMBER ONE

 

 

HELICOPTER TRIP THAT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT TRIP

 

 

BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WERE CRAMMED IN AND

 

 

CHRIS CRAFT GOT ILL, AND HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE.

 

 

AND---

 

 

Q. WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THAT TRIP.

 

 

A. --- AND HE -- AND WE HAD TO MAKE EMERGENCY

 

 

PROCEDURES.

 

 

Q. OUT THE WINDOW?

 

 

A. NO. WE LANDED. I THINK WE MADE IT. WE DID.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, YOU THINK -- HOW MANY EARLY TRIPS

 

 

WERE THERE?

 

 

A. THERE -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN, "HOW MANY

 

 

EARLY TRIPS." I MEAN---

 

 

Q. WHEN YOU SAID IN ONE OF THE EARLY TRIPS, AND I WAS

 

 

JUST WONDERING---

 

 

A. OH.

 

 

Q. ---HOW MANY EARLY TRIPS WERE THERE?

 

 

A. WE HAD ONLY---

 

 

Q. THESE ARE LIKE RECONNAISSANCE, ALMOST, TRIPS.

 

 

A. RECONNAISSANCE. WELL, THERE WAS ONLY -- TO MY

 

 

KNOWLEDGE -- ONE OR TWO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 472

 

 

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. WEFVE GONE UP -- SO WE WENT ON ONE

 

 

WITH SAM JOHNSON. NOW, WE'RE GOING ON ONE

 

 

POSSIBLY WITH JOHN DAVIS AND MR. LARSON AND CHRIS

 

 

CRAFT AND YOURSELF AND THE HELICOPTER PILOT.

 

 

THAT'S BEGINNING TO SOUND PRETTY CROWDED. WAS IT

 

 

A FOUR-PERSON HELICOPTER, OR SIX? COULD HAVE

 

 

BEEN---

 

 

A. IT COULD -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIX.

 

 

Q. A LONG RANGER?

 

 

A. COULD HAVE BEEN A LONG RANGER.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

A. WHEN YOU SAID "EARLY," I WASN'T SURE, BECAUSE I

 

 

CONSIDER ALL OF THESE EARLY TRIPS BECAUSE WHEN WE

 

 

WERE TAKING THEM, IT WAS EARLY IN THE PROJECT,

 

 

SO---

 

 

Q. SURE, SURE. DID MR. EARL GO ON ANY OF THESE TRIPS

 

 

WITH YOU?

 

 

A. LATER ON, WE HAD -- WHEN WE WERE ESTABLISHING SOME

 

 

OF OUR SAMPLINGS, WE HAD, I GUESS, THE -- AND I

 

 

DON'T REMEMBER THE CHRONOLOGY EXACTLY, BECAUSE

 

 

WE'VE GONE THROUGH SORT OF THE FIRST TWO. AND,

 

 

THEN, AFTER THAT, WE WERE ON OUR OWN. WE

 

 

BASICALLY---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 473

 

 

A. --- TOOK OFF AND---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND MADE OUR OWN ARRANGEMENTS AND STARTED TO DO

 

 

OUR OWN ANALYSIS. WE SIMPLY WERE IN THE FIELD WAY

 

 

TOO MUCH AND HAD TOO MANY THINGS. WE NEEDED TO

 

 

HAVE OUR OWN OPERATING BASE. SO, DR. CRAFT AND I

 

 

WERE SAMPLING. AND I FORGET, AT SOME POINT, WE

 

 

WERE CONTACTED. I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER BY WHO, BUT

 

 

THEY WANTED TO BASICALLY COME ALONG AND SEE IF

 

 

THEY COULD -- MAYBE ED BARBER CALLED -- I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER WHO IT WAS -- OR SOMEBODY -- AND SAID

 

 

WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER WHO THE CONTACT PERSON

 

 

WAS -- COULD THEY GO ON A TOUR AND SEE WHAT WE

 

 

WERE DOING.

 

 

Q. THAT WAS MR. EARL.

 

 

A. MR. -- WHO CALLED ME? I'M NOT SURE WHO---

 

 

Q. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. WHO WENT WITH YOU?

 

 

A. YES. HE---

 

 

Q. THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING.

 

 

A. YES. HE -- ON ONE OF THE TRIPS, HE DEFINITELY

 

 

WENT WITH US. YES, THAT IS CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID DR. PATRICK GO ON ONE OF THESE EARLY

 

 

TRIPS WITH YOU?

 

 

A. YEAH, I BELIEVE HE WAS ON THE SAME TRIP.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 474

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF DR. PATRICK GOING

 

 

WITH YOU ON THAT EARLY TRIP?

 

 

A. I THINK AS MUCH FOR HIM WAS CURIOSITY TO SEE WHAT

 

 

WE WERE DOING. HE WAS QUITE INTERESTED. AND I

 

 

THINK AT THAT TIME THEY WERE JUST CURIOUS AS TO

 

 

WHAT WE WERE GOING TO SET UP AND WHAT WE WERE

 

 

GOING TO DO. SO, AS DR. CRAFT HAS ALLUDED TO IN

 

 

HIS DEPOSITION, I BELIEVE, INCORRECTLY, HE AND I

 

 

BOTH COLLECTED SAMPLES THAT TRIP. I BELIEVE HE

 

 

TOOK FULL CREDIT FOR THE SAMPLING.

 

 

Q. DID HE INDICATE THAT HE WAS THE ONLY WORKER BEE ON

 

 

THE TRIP?

 

 

A. I THINK HE MADE THAT AS AN INCORRECT STATEMENT.

 

 

BUT, ANYWAYS, WE BOTH COLLECTED SAMPLES. AND, SO,

 

 

AS WE WOULD GO FROM PLACE TO PLACE, THAT BASICALLY

 

 

WE WOULD JUST LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE

 

 

WANDERING AROUND LOOKING AT THINGS. SO, THERE WAS

 

 

LITERALLY -- IT WAS PRETTY MUCH A WORK TRIP FOR

 

 

CHRIS AND I. WE WERE COLLECTING SAMPLES.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. WAS DR. PATRICK, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, AT

 

 

THAT TIME A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE?

 

 

A. I DO NOT KNOW IF HE WAS A CONSULTANT AT THAT TIME.

 

 

HE MAY HAVE -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED -- I DO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 475

 

 

 

 

NOT KNOW WHETHER HE HAD ANY FORMAL -- I DO NOT

 

 

KNOW WHEN HE WAS FORMALLY -- I DON'T KNOW HIS

 

 

ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I REALLY

 

 

DON'T.

 

 

Q. WERE YOU ALREADY A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AT THAT TIME?

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO AT THAT TIME.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ONE SECOND.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WAS THAT MID-1989 THAT THIS TRIP

 

 

WAS TAKEN?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO.

 

 

Q. DR. RICHARDSON, I HAVE A PRIVILEGED LIST THAT'S

 

 

BEEN PRODUCED BY MR. BURGESS.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WHY DON'T YOU GIVE

 

 

ME THOSE?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I GUESS WE CAN ATTACH THIS TO

 

 

THE DEPOSITION. I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING

 

 

TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY IT, BUT IT'S A PLEADING

 

 

IN THE CASE, OR IT'S AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT. I'D

 

 

LIKE TO POINT YOU TO THE FIRST ENTRY ON THIS

 

 

PRIVILEGED LIST PROVIDED BY MR. BURGESS TO THE

UNITED STATES. AND IT INDICATES ON THIS PRIVILEGE

 

 

LIST THAT THEY'RE HANDWRITTEN NOTES OF YOURS FROM

 

 

A MEETING WITH COUNSEL REGARDING LITIGATION

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 476

 

 

 

 

ISSUES, 1/12/89. SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WERE

 

 

YOU A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE

 

 

AT THIS TIME?

 

 

A. IT WOULD APPEAR SO FROM THIS INFORMATION.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, REALLY, FROM YOUR EARLIEST FORAYS

 

 

INTO THE EVERGLADES, YOU WERE ALREADY A CONSULTANT

 

 

FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WELL, LET ME JUST STATE

 

 

THAT I DID DO THIS PRIVILEGE LIST. I DID

 

 

FORMULATE THIS PRIVILEGE LIST. I DID DECIDE

 

 

THAT THAT DOCUMENT WAS PRIVILEGED. I WILL

 

 

REVIEW THE DOCUMENT IN LIGHT OF THIS

 

 

TESTIMONY TODAY. PERHAPS THERE IS SOME WAY

 

 

TO NAIL DOWN WHEN DR. RICHARDSON, IN FACT,

 

 

BECAME A CONSULTANT TO THE LEAGUE. BUT THIS

 

 

WAS MY DECISION, NOT HIS. I DON'T THINK YOU

 

 

CAN PREDICATE WHEN HE DID BECOME OR DID NOT

 

 

BECOME A CONSULTANT BY THIS DATE ON THIS

 

 

DOCUMENT. BUT I'LL EXAMINE IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

MR. REID: THAT'S THREE YEARS AGO

 

 

TODAY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THE DAY AFTER YOUR

 

 

BIRTHDAY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 477

 

 

MR. REID: RIGHT.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: THEY DIDN'T KNOW. THEY

 

 

FORGOT THAT THEN.

 

 

MR. NEARHOOF: THAT'S FOUR YEARS AGO.

 

 

WITNESS: FOUR YEARS AGO.

 

 

MR. REID: OH, IT'S '93. THAT'S RIGHT.

 

 

TIME FLIES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: SHAVING YEARS ALREADY,

 

 

ARE YOU? ALL RIGHT.

 

 

(BY MS. PONZOLI) DID MR. DAVIS AND/OR MR. LARSON

 

 

MORE OR LESS SHOW YOU AROUND WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREA 2A OR THE EVERGLADES -- ORIENT YOU TO THE

 

 

EVERGLADES?

 

 

WITNESS: MR. DAVIS OR MR. LARSON?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: DR. DAVIS.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: RIGHT. DR. DAVIS. I

 

 

APOLOGIZE.

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE DR. DAVIS EVER DID. I BELIEVE

 

 

MR. LARSON, IN THE HELICOPTER TRIPS, MAY HAVE

 

 

SHOWN US. HE WAS MORE FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE

 

 

STRUCTURES. WE WANTED TO GET A HANDLE ON SOME OF

 

 

THE STRUCTURES. AND SO HE WAS ABLE TO ORIENT US

 

 

TOWARDS THE STRUCTURES IN THE VARIOUS PUMPING

 

 

STATIONS. MY INITIAL SORT OF ECOLOGICAL SURVEY OF

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 478

 

 

 

 

THE AREA WAS REALLY BENEFITTED BY SAMMY TIGERTAIL,

 

 

WHO WAS A MICCOSUKEE INDIAN, IN TERMS---

 

 

Q. WHEN---

 

 

A. --- TERMS OF -- HE WAS ACTUALLY THE BOAT -- AIRBOAT

 

 

DRIVER ON SEVERAL OF THE TRIPS. ARE YOU SMILING

 

 

AT SAMMY TIGERTAIL?

 

 

Q. WHEN IN 189 DID MR. TIGERTAIL TAKE YOU AROUND THE

 

 

EVERGLADES?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

A. SAMMY TOOK ME AROUND, THE FIRST TRIP, WITH SAM

 

 

JOHNSON. ON OUR VERY FIRST TRIP, HE WAS THE

 

 

GUIDE, AND ALSO SAM JOHNSON, TO SOME DEGREE, AND

 

 

THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER PERSON FROM ES&P. I

 

 

CAN'T REMEMBER WHO THAT WAS. BUT -- AND THERE

 

 

WERE DR. CRAFT AND MYSELF. AND SO WE HAD -- YOU

 

 

KNOW, WE HAD SEVERAL PEOPLE TAKE US AROUND.

 

 

LARSON PRIMARILY---

 

 

Q. THAT WAS THE FIRST TRIP MR. TIGERTAIL WENT AROUND

 

 

WITH YOU?

 

 

A. YES. YOU KNOW, HE WENT TO SEVERAL TRIPS. WE

 

 

BASICALLY UTILIZED HIS SERVICES OVER SEVERAL TIME

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 479

 

 

 

 

PERIODS BECAUSE OF HIS -- THE AIRBOAT, HIS ACCESS.

 

 

I MEAN, THERE WAS NO PROBLEM TRAVELING WITH

 

 

MR. TIGERTAIL. WE COULD GO PRETTY MUCH WHERE WE

 

 

WANTED TO GO. NOBODY SEEMED TO BOTHER. THE

 

 

INDIANS HAVE A VERY FREE REIN IN THOSE AREAS, SO

 

 

THEY CAN GO PRETTY -- THEY KNOW THE AREA, THEY GO

 

 

PRETTY MUCH WHERE THEY WANT TO GO AND NOBODY

 

 

BOTHERS THEM.

 

 

Q. OKAY. THIS WAS A TRIP WHERE YOU WENT BY

 

 

HELICOPTER, AND THEN YOU GOT OUT AND WENT IN A

 

 

AIRBOAT---

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- ON A SECOND PART OF IT?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK, FIRST, WE WENT -- THE ONE TIME WE

 

 

SIMPLY WENT STRICTLY BY AIRBOAT.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. IN FACT, SEVERAL TIMES WE WENT STRICTLY BY

 

 

AIRBOAT. BUT, THEN, THERE -- THE WATER GOT SO LOW

 

 

WE HAD TO GO BY HELICOPTER.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. OKAY. AND YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE TWO

 

 

EXPERTS -- THAT YOU HAVE CONTACTED TWO EXPERTS ON

 

 

AQUATIC PLANT CONTROL. WHO WERE THESE TWO

 

 

EXPERTS?

 

 

A. I'M SORRY. WHERE ARE WE NOW?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 480

 

 

 

 

Q. I'M SORRY. THE PARAGRAPH 4B.

 

 

A. 4B?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER AT THIS STAGE. I THINK I TALKED

 

 

TO -- AND I CAN'T BE POSITIVE -- I THINK I TALKED

 

 

TO JOHN GRACE AT LSU. AND I CAN'T---

 

 

Q. IS HE THE ONE REFERRED TO IN 5-2, LSU, WETLAND

 

 

SOILS GROUP?

 

 

A. NO, NO, NO, NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. YOU THINK YOU TALKED TO JOHN GRACE?

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE SECOND PERSON. I WOULD HAVE

 

 

TO GO BACK AND THINK ABOUT THAT. I DONFT

 

 

REMEMBER.

 

 

Q. IS IT JIM GRACE?

 

 

A. AH, JIM GRACE, YOU'RE CORRECT.

 

 

Q. YEAH, OKAY. DO YOU RECALL, DR. RICHARDSON, WHEN

 

 

YOU THINK YOU BECAME AN EXPERT? DO YOU HAVE A

 

 

MENTAL RECOLLECTION OF WHEN YOU WERE HIRED AS A

 

 

CONSULTANT FOR TliE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? YOU

 

 

REMEMBER WE WERE SORTING THAT THROUGH?

 

 

A. I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT RECOLLECTION, BECAUSE --

 

 

WHAT HAPPENED, IF YOU -- I WAS TRYING TO TELL YOU

 

 

IS, THAT EARLY ON THAT THERE WERE SOME OF THESE

I GUESS THE

 

 

MEETINGS THAT I ATTENDED RELATED

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 481

 

 

FIRST ONE I'D FORGOTTEN ABOUT WAS RELATED TO

 

 

LITIGATION. I ATTENDED A COUPLE OF THOSE---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- AND THE ESSENCE OF THOSE WAS RELATED TO WHAT I

 

 

WOULD BE DOING FOR RESEARCH, BUT THERE WAS SOME

 

 

LITIGATION, I GUESS, STUFF. IT WAS IN THE VERY

 

 

EARLY STAGES RELATED TO THIS CASE -- SORT OF

 

 

GENERAL INFORMATION.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. BUT IT BECAME VERY APPARENT VERY QUICKLY THAT I

 

 

WAS NOT GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN THAT COMPONENT.

 

 

GEORGE WEDGWORTH, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, STATED TO

 

 

ME ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS -- AND THAT WAS THE

 

 

WAY I WANTED IT -- THAT I WOULD NOT BECOME A

 

 

LITIGATION EXPERT EARLY ON, AND THEY WOULD HAVE TO

 

 

GO OTHER WAYS. SO, I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.

 

 

EVEN THOUGH I ATTENDED ONE OR TWO OF THOSE EARLY

 

 

MEETINGS, I CANNOT REMEMBER EXACTLY DOING MUCH OF

 

 

ANYTHING, OTHER THAN LISTENING AND GIVING A LITTLE

 

 

BIT 0F OVERVIEW WHERE WE WERE GOING.

 

 

OKAY. WAS MR. WEDGWORTH IN ATTENDANCE AT THOSE

 

 

MEETINGS?

 

 

A. SINCE -- WELL, HE WOULD -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I

 

 

THINK MR. WEDGWORTH HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION OF HOW

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 482

 

 

 

 

 

 

SOME OF THIS SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE. I

 

 

DON'T BELIEVE HE WAS IN TOO MANY OF THE MEETINGS

 

 

THAT I---

 

 

Q. WAS MR. EARL IN ATTENDANCE AT THOSE MEETINGS?

 

 

A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN.

 

 

Q. WHO ELSE WAS AT THESE MEETINGS? WAS MR. DAVIS?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHICH MEETINGS YOU'RE REFERRING TO,

 

 

NOW.

 

 

Q. DR. DAVIS. I'M SORRY.

 

 

A. NO, BUT WHICH MEETINGS, I MEAN?

 

 

Q. WELL, THESE EARLY LITIGATION MEETINGS.

 

 

A. WELL, AS I SAID, I DID NOT ATTEND VERY MANY OF

 

 

THESE. I MAY HAVE GONE TO ONE OR MAYBE TWO.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. BUT---

 

 

Q. THAT'S OKAY.

 

 

A. --- FROM THAT SINCE WE WERE JUST STARTING THE

 

 

PROJECT, OR EARLY ON, THIS THING CAME INTO

 

 

EXISTENCE, I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER WHERE THIS

 

 

MEETING WAS, SO I CAN HARDLY REMEMBER WHO WAS AT

 

 

THIS MEETING.

 

 

WAS MR. -- WAS DR. DAVIS THERE, THOUGH, TO THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 483

 

 

 

 

BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION, AT ONE OR SEVERAL OF

 

 

THEM?

 

 

A. HE HAS BEEN AT SEVERAL THAT I HAVE BEEN AT, YES.

 

 

BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER IF HE WAS AT THIS MEETING.

 

 

I ---

 

 

Q. AT THE EARLY ONES.

 

 

A. --- I DON'T -- I DON'T EVEN---

 

 

Q. CAN YOU SEPARATE OUT THAT VERY FIRST MEETING IN

 

 

YOUR MEMORY, DR. RICHARDSON? EVEN IF YOU DON'T

 

 

REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS, CAN YOU SEPARATE OUT SOME

 

 

RECOLLECTION OF THE BODY OF PEOPLE WHO WERE

 

 

THERE?

 

 

A. I CANNOT.

 

 

Q. YOU CANNOT?

 

 

A. IN ALL HONESTY, I CANNOT.

 

 

Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON? WAS MR. LARSON AT THAT

 

 

MEETING?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. HE COULD HAVE BEEN. I DON'T

 

 

REMEMBER, IN ALL HONESTY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK WERE AT THAT

 

 

FIRST LITIGATION MEETING?

 

 

A. SINCE I CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS -- MY

 

 

RECOLLECTION ON SOME OF THESE MEETINGS, AND I

 

 

WOULD SAY THE FIRST ONE OR TWO, AS I SAID, AND I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 484

 

 

 

 

CAN'T REMEMBER HOW -- SEE, I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT

 

 

WAS IN CLEWISTON OR WHERE IT WAS, SO I CAN'T -- I

 

 

WOULD SAY AT LEAST ONE THING -- AT LEAST, IN THE

 

 

EARLY MEETINGS, THERE WAS A MUCH SMALLER GROUP OF

 

 

PEOPLE. I MEAN, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TWO OR THREE.

 

 

I JUST DON'T REMEMBER.

 

 

Q. I'M WILLING TO BELIEVE THAT. EVERYTHING IN THIS

 

 

CASE WAS SMALLER. BUT YOU HAD BEEN HIRED AS A

 

 

CONSULTANT AT THAT TIME?

 

 

A. AT THE TIME OF THIS MEETING?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK MY FILES. THERE

 

 

WAS SOME POINT IN WHICH -- I WAS NOT HIRED AS A

 

 

LITIGATION PERSON AT THAT TIME; WAS NOT HIRED AS

 

 

AN EXPERT AT THAT TIME FOR ANYTHING RELATED TO

 

 

LITIGATION. FOR THE FIRST THREE-PLUS YEARS, I HAD

 

 

LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO WITH LITIGATION. I WAS

 

 

NOT PART OF THAT.

 

 

Q. YOU WERE A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE?

 

 

A. CANE LEAGUE.

 

 

Q. BUT YOU SAY THAT YOU JUST GAVE THEM ADVICE?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT. AND WE HAD -- AS I SAID BEFORE,

 

 

GEORGE AND I HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS, AND I DID NOT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 485

 

 

 

 

WISH TO PARTICIPATE NOR DID I PARTICIPATE IN --

 

 

OTHER THAN SOME -- I GUESS , ON AN AS-NEED-TO-KNOW

 

 

BASIS FOR SOME THINGS, I DID NOT I THINK, AS I

 

 

SAID IN THIS FIRST MEETING, MAYBE WHICH I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER MUCH ABOUT IT. I CAN'T REMEMBER EVEN WHO

 

 

WAS THERE. THERE MAY HAVE -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW

 

 

WHAT THEY EVEN PLANNED AT THAT EARLY STAGE.

 

 

BUT---

 

 

Q. WELL, I DIDN'T ASK YOU WHAT THEY PLANNED. I JUST

 

 

ASKED YOU WHO WAS THERE.

 

 

A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. BUT I WAS

 

 

NOT---

 

 

Q. WERE THERE LAWYERS THERE? THERE MUST HAVE BEEN

 

 

LAWYERS, IF IT WAS A LITIGATION MEETING.

 

 

A. I ASSUME SO.

 

 

Q. AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF THERE WERE LAWYERS

 

 

THERE?

 

 

A. WELL, OH, NO. I WOULD ASSUME THERE WERE SOME

 

 

LAWYERS THERE. OBVIOUSLY, IF IT WAS RELATED TO

 

 

LITIGATION, I ASSUME THERE WERE SOME LAWYERS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- BUT I WAS NOT -- AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER, IN

 

 

ALL HONESTY, I TRIED TO KEEP THAT PRETTY CLEAR,

 

 

THAT I DID NOT WANT TO BECOME INVOLVED WITH THAT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 486

 

 

 

 

COMPONENT OF IT. AND, AS I SAID, MR. WEDGWORTH

 

 

HAD, AT THAT TIME, CONCURRED FOR A NUMBER OF

 

 

YEARS.

 

 

Q. WHEN -- DO YOU REMEMBER TAKING THE NOTES?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING THE NOTES WHEN YOU WENT

 

 

THROUGH YOUR DOCUMENTS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. WHO FOUND THE NOTES?

 

 

A. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT MYSELF. I

 

 

DID NOT HAVE -- SOME OF THOSE FILES, BECAUSE OF

 

 

THE VOLUME OF MATERIAL, I DID NOT SIT DOWN AND GO

 

 

THROUGH EVERY SEIEET OF PAPER.

 

 

Q. SURE. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IN REGARD TO YOUR

 

 

RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. WEDGWORTH AND HIS EFFORTS TO

 

 

KEEP YOUR SCIENCE IN A CERTAIN POSTURE, FOR HOW

 

 

LONG AFTER THE BEGINNING OF 1989 DID THAT GO ON?

 

 

THERE HAD TO COME A SPLIT. THERE CAME A SPLIT AT

 

 

SOME TIME, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT MR. WEDGWORTH LEFT

 

 

THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND THERE WAS SOME

 

 

INTERNAL DIVISION AT THAT POINT. WHEN DID---

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- YOU BECOME AWARE OF CHANGES IN THE WAY THAT YOU

 

 

WOULD BE HANDLED AND/OR THIS DIVISION OF THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 487

 

 

 

 

COOPERATIVE AND MR. WEDGWORTH FROM THE FLORIDA

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. WHEN GEORGE LEFT THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, YOU ARE

 

 

CORRECT, THERE WAS A DIFFERENT TENOR INTO THE

 

 

ORGANIZATION. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN HE

 

 

LEFT. I BELIEVE IT WAS IN f9O SOMETIME.

 

 

Q. IN 1990?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE IT WAS SOMETIME IN 1990.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

 

 

Q. EARLY 190?

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN HE LEFT, BUT IT

 

 

WAS -- THINK -- I BELIEVE IT WAS 190, I THINK.

 

 

BUT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LEAGUE DID NOT

 

 

CHANGE. I DISCUSSED THIS WITH ANDY RACKLEY AND

 

 

WITH PHIL PARSONS AND SOME OTHER INDIVIDUALS.

 

 

THIS MATTER WAS DISCUSSED IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR

 

 

NOT I WOULD BECOME INVOLVED WITH THE LITIGATION

 

 

COMPONENT.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. MY POSITION HAD NOT CHANGED ON THIS. THERE WERE

 

 

INDIVIDUALS, I TliINK, IN THE ORGANIZATION WHO HAD

 

 

DIFFERENT POSITIONS ON THIS IN TERMS OF MY

 

 

INVOLVEMENT, WHETHER I SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T. SOME

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 488

 

 

 

 

WERE STILL FOLLOWING GEORGE'S LINE. I DON'T HAVE

 

 

THE SPECIFICS OF WHO WAS WHAT. BUT, ANYWAYS, WE

 

 

CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSIONS FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL

 

 

YEARS, THAT I WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE IN A DIRECT

 

 

WAY WITH THE LITIGATION OTHER THAN THROUGH THE

 

 

LEAGUE IN A -- AN ADVISORY ROLE. NOW, THERE MAY

 

 

BE ONE EXCEPTION TO THAT.

 

 

Q. WHO'S THE ONE EXCEPTION?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE WHEN I WROTE A REVIEW RELATED TO

 

 

WALKER'S PIECE OF INFORMATION, AND SOME OTHER --

 

 

I THINK A MEETING OR TWO RELATED TO THAT. BUT,

 

 

ESSENTIALLY, I STILL---

 

 

Q. SO, YOU DID CONTINUE TO ATTEND LITIGATION MEETINGS

 

 

FROM TIME TO TIME?

 

 

A. VERY FEW.

 

 

Q. MAYBE TWO TIMES A YEAR?

 

 

A. AT MOST, TO MY RECOLLECTION.

 

 

Q. WHEN, IN YOUR MIND, DID YOU BECOME A LITIGATION

 

 

EXPERT?

 

 

A. THAT WAS DISCUSSED THIS LAST YEAR. AGAIN, THERE

 

 

WAS SOME QUESTION OF -- I, OBVIOUSLY, WAS TRYING

TO DO AS MUCH RESEARCH AS POSSIBLE AND KEEP MY

 

 

HEAD LOW IN THIS PARTICULAR OPERATION. AND SINCE

 

 

THE INFORMATION WAS PUBLIC, AND SINCE THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 489

 

 

INFORMATION WAS OF VALUE TO THIS CASE, IT BECAME

 

 

APPARENT THAT, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, THIS WAS NOT

 

 

GOING TO BE THE CASE -- SO CAME TO SOME AGREEMENT

 

 

ON THAT. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN THE DATE

 

 

WAS, BUT I THINK IT WAS THIS LAST YEAR.

 

 

Q. BUT YOUR CONTRACT DIDN'T CHANGE? I MEAN, YOUR

 

 

CONTRACT, CONSULTING FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE, JUST CONTINUED ON AN HOURLY, DAILY

 

 

BASIS---

 

 

A. ON A PROJECT---

 

 

Q. --- THAT IT ALWAYS HAD?

 

 

A. --- PER-PROJECT BASIS, WHATEVER THEY ASKED ME TO DO

 

 

IN TERMS THAT WE CONTINUE TO DO SOME OF THAT,

 

 

YEAH.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU EVER DISCUSS MR. WEDGWORTH'S

 

 

DEPARTURE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND,

 

 

I GUESS TO SOME EXTENT, A DISASSOCIATION, I WOULD

 

 

ASSUME, WITH MR. WEDGWORTH -- WITH HIM PERSONALLY?

 

 

A. HIS LEAVING THE LEAGUE?

 

 

Q. WELL, I MEAN, DID YOU SPEAK WITH MR. WEDGWORTH ON

 

 

A CONTINUING BASIS ABOUT YOUR RESEARCH WHILE HE

 

 

WAS STILL WITH THE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. OH, YES. FROM TIME TO TIME, I WOULD -- HE WOULD

 

 

CALL ME UP AND SAY, HOW ARE THINGS, AND HOW ARE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 490

 

 

 

 

THINGS GOING---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND WHEN HE WAS WITH THE LEAGUE AT THE EQC, HE

 

 

WOULD ATTEND THOSE MEETINGS AND---

 

 

Q. WASN'T HE CHAIRMAN OF THE EQC?

 

 

A. HE WAS CHAIRMAN.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. AND MR. WEDGWORTH COMES TO ALMOST ALL PUBLIC

 

 

PRESENTATIONS. I DON'T THINK THAT I HAVE BEEN IN

 

 

SOUTH FLORIDA AT A DISTRICT MEETING OR A PUBLIC

 

 

MEETING THAT HE HAS NOT ATTENDED. SO HE WOULD

 

 

JUST -- HE WOULD ALWAYS -- HE WAS VERY CORDIAL,

 

 

SAY HI AFTERWARDS AND TALK. SO WE HAVE KEPT IN

 

 

SOME CONTACT.

 

 

Q. BUT DID THE CONTACT BREAK TO SOME EXTENT WHEN HE

 

 

LEFT THE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. WELL, I HAD LESS CONTACT WITH HIM, YES. I HAD

 

 

LESS CONTACT WITH HIM, ALTHOUGH, HE -- I HAD LESS

 

 

CONTACT WITH HIM. I WOULDN'T SEE HIM IN THAT

 

 

CAPACITY. BUT HE---

 

 

UH-HUH (YES). SO I TAKE IT YOU TWO NEVER

 

 

DISCUSSED THIS BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU BY TELEPHONE

 

 

OR OTHERWISE?

 

 

A. DISCUSSED?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 491

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. THE FACT THAT YOU WOULD NOT CONTINUE IN THAT MORE

 

 

INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WHERE HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE

 

 

ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY COMMITTEE AND YOU WERE DOING

 

 

GRANT RESEARCH UNDER THAT COMMITTEE. YOU NEVER

 

 

DISCUSSED THAT WITH HIM?

 

 

A. MAYBE YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION IN TERMS

 

 

OF -- MAYBE -- DID WE DISCUSS -- WELL, GIVE ME THE

 

 

QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE. MAYBE I'LL -- I'LL TRY

 

 

TO---

 

 

Q. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE TRICKY. I JUST---

 

 

A. NO, NO. I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.

 

 

Q. --- I JUST -- IT JUST SEEMED TO ME THERE WAS A

 

 

WORKING RELATIONSHIP FOR A PERIOD OF TIME THAT

 

 

BROKE OFF, TO SOME EXTENT. AND MAYBE TO SOME

 

 

EXTENT REESTABLISH ITSELF DOWNSTREAM. IS THAT

 

 

ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I WOULD SAY THAT'S ACCURATE. HE IS THE HEAD OF

 

 

THE CO-OP. AND, SO, HE BASICALLY -- WE HAD

 

 

CONTACTS UNDER HIS, I GUESS, CHAIRMANSHIP OR

 

 

WHATEVER HIS -- PRESIDENCY OF THE CO-OP. WE'D

 

 

HAVE THAT.

 

 

Q. WELL, I THINK WHAT I'M CONFUSED ABOUT IS, IS THAT

 

 

YOU NEVER DISCUSSED THIS WITH MR. WEDGWORTH. YOU

 

 

HAVEN'T SAID YOU NEVER DISCUSSED IT, BUT---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 492

 

 

 

 

A. WHEN YOU -- WELL, "THIS" -- THAT'S WHAT I WAS

 

 

TRYING TO CLARIFY.

 

 

Q. THE "THIS" IS THE LEAVING OF THE LEAGUE AND THE

 

 

CEASING TO BE CHAIRMAN OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL

 

 

QUALITY---

 

 

A. AH, YES.

 

 

Q. --- COMMITTEE AND THE CEASING TO HAVE A---

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. --- CONTINUING RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU---

 

 

A. YES, YES.

 

 

Q. --- AND IT'S MY IMPRESSION THAT---

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. --- MR. WEDGWORTH IS A VERY COURTEOUS PERSON---

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. --- AND WOULD HAVE PROBABLY DISCUSSED IT AT SOME

 

 

LEVEL WITH YOU AT SOME POINT.

 

 

A. THAT'S TRUE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHEN DID THAT CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE?

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE OF THAT CONVERSATION,

 

 

OBVIOUSLY. I DON'T REMEMBER -- I DON'T---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- REMEMBER WHEN HE LEFT BECAUSE I COULDNFT

 

 

REMEMBER---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 493

 

 

 

 

A. OKAY. WE HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- PASSING IN THE HALLWAY; HE MAY HAVE CALLED ME.

 

 

I CAN'T REMEMBER. ONE, I GUESS, HE TOLD ME HE WAS

 

 

LEAVING THE LEAGUE, AND I WAS -- I WAS AWARE OF

 

 

THE FACT HE HAD BEEN HAVING SOME DIFFICULTIES WITH

 

 

HIS HEART, AND HE TOLD ME SOMETHING RELATED TO, I

 

 

BELIEVE -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE DETAILS --

 

 

RELATED TO HIS HEALTH, AND THAT WAS ONE AVENUE. I

 

 

DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THE SPECIFIC DETAILS. HE

 

 

DIDN'T GO INTO GREAT DETAIL ON THAT. AND, THEN,

 

 

HE WAS STEPPING ASIDE FROM THAT. AND I BELIEVE HE

 

 

ALSO MENTIONED THAT HE WOULD BE DOING MORE WORK IN

 

 

THE FUTURE STRICTLY THROUGH THE CO-OP AND THAT HE

 

 

WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THE RELATIONSHIP, IF WE

 

 

COULD, THROUGH THE CO-OP.

 

 

Q. SO, THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT MR. WEDGWORTH GAVE

 

 

YOU FOR HIS LEAVING WAS REALLY A HEALTH-RELATED

 

 

EXPLANATION?

 

 

A. WELL, HE ALSO MENTIONED THE FACT THAT HE DID NOT

 

 

LIKE ALL THESE LEGAL ACTIVITIES. HE HAS A FAIRLY

 

 

HIGH DISDAIN FOR LAWYERS.

 

 

FOLLOWING UP ON THAT, WHAT WERE THE LEGAL

 

 

ACTIVITIES THAT HE DID NOT LIKE FROM THESE PEOPLE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 494

 

 

HE DISDAINED?

 

 

A. HE DID NOT REALLY ELABORATE. HE SAID IT WAS

 

 

BECOMING A VERY CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THAT HE THOUGHT

 

 

COULD BE SETTLED BY SCIENCE. I THINK GEORGE HAS

 

 

ALWAYS FELT THAT SCIENCE, IF BROUGHT TO BEAR --

 

 

THE RIGHT SCIENCE, COULD ANSWER SOME OF THESE

 

 

QUESTIONS, BUT THAT THE LEGAL PROFESSION PRIMARILY

 

 

OBFUSCATED THE ISSUE. AND THAT, IN FACT, AS FAR

 

 

AS HE WAS CONCERNED, I THINK, IS -- ABOUT THE ONLY

 

 

OTHER COMMENT I HEARD HIM EVER MAKE RELATED TO

 

 

THAT WAS THAT LAWYERS PRIMARILY TELL YOU WHAT YOU

 

 

CAN'T DO AND WHY THIS AND BASICALLY DELAY THINGS

 

 

FOR AD INFINITUM, AND HE WAS NOT PARTICULARLY

 

 

PLEASED BY THAT.

 

 

Q. DID HE EVER TIE THAT TO ANY PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS

 

 

OR JUST THE GENERIC CLASS OF LAWYERS?

 

 

A. MOSTLY AS -- I THINK AS HE PUTS IT, AS A CLASS. I

 

 

DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH, BUT I

 

 

BELIEVE AS A GENERAL CLASS.

Q. OKAY. IS THAT ABOUT THE EXTENT OF YOUR

 

 

CONVERSATION?

 

 

A. ON THAT MATTER, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. YOU SAY THAT THE TENOR, OR THE TONE OF THE

 

 

LEAGUE CHANGED AFTER MR. WEDGWORTH AND THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 495

 

 

 

 

COOPERATIVE LEFT AND HE NO LONGER WAS HEAD OF THE

 

 

ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY COMMITTEE. HOW DID IT

 

 

CHANGE?

 

 

A. WELL, WE HAD A NEW PERSON AS THE HEAD OF IT. AND

 

 

I THINK THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE RESEARCH

 

 

ACTIVITIES THAT WOULD BE VIEWED BY THAT GROUP

 

 

CHANGED.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHO BECAME HEAD AFTER MR. WEDGWORTH?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE ONE OF THE FANJUL. I THINK IT'S ALEX

 

 

OR---

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND, THEN, HOW DID THE RESEARCH CHANGE?

 

 

A. MY RESEARCH DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL. BASICALLY,

 

 

THEY'VE KEPT PRETTY MUCH AN OFF-HANDS POLICY OR

 

 

HANDS-OFF POLICY ON MY RESEARCH---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- BUT BASICALLY A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING OF THAT

 

 

RESEARCH.

 

 

Q. OH, OKAY. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO MISQUOTE

 

 

YOU. HOW DID THE UNDERSTANDING CHANGE?

 

 

A. WELL, ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT FROM SOME EARLY

 

 

PRESENTATIONS AT THE EQC AS TO WHAT WE WERE DOING

 

 

TO LATER PRESENTATIONS, THE QUESTIONS WERE OF A

 

 

SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING LEVEL. AND I

 

 

THINK THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE PRIMARY AREAS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 496

 

 

 

 

AND, ALSO, I THINK AT THAT TIME, THERE WAS LESS

 

 

INTEREST IN THE RESEARCH AND MORE INTEREST IN --

 

 

SINCE MY WORK WAS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO

 

 

LITIGATION -- MORE INTEREST IN, AT THAT TIME,

 

 

OTHER TYPES OF RESEARCH. SO I STARTED HAVING LESS

 

 

CONTACT WITH EQC.

 

 

Q. WHEN YOU SAY THERE WAS A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING

 

 

LEVEL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

 

 

A. GEORGE ASKED VERY GOOD, TOUGH QUESTIONS. HE

 

 

UNDERSTOOD HOW THINGS WORK, AND---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. ---HAS A BACKGROUND AS A SOILS PERSON AND AS AN

 

 

AGRONOMIST, AND SO HAS AN -- AND HAS READ

 

 

EXTENSIVELY. SO, HE UNDERSTANDS THE SYSTEM QUITE

 

 

WELL. SO, HE WOULD ASK A NUMBER OF VERY GOOD

 

 

QUESTIONS.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. AND AS WERE SOME OTHER INDIVIDUALS THERE. BUT I'M

 

 

PRINCIPALS WHO RUN THE EQC,

 

 

SAYING IN TERMS OF THE

 

 

LET'S SAY THAT MR. FANJUL DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME

 

 

UNDERSTANDING OF ECOSYSTEMS AND ENVIRONMENTS.

Q. WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE.

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. MR. WEDGWORTH HAD BEEN RAISED THERE AND---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 497

 

 

 

 

A. YES, HE -- RAISED THERE; HE GREW UP -- YES.

 

 

Q. SURE, SURE. ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU INVITED TO LESS

 

 

EQC MEETINGS FROM THAT POINT ON?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. BEFORE THEN, YOU HAD GONE HOW OFTEN?

 

 

A. NOT KEEPING TRACK OF THEM, I WOULD SAY MAYBE I WAS

 

 

ATTENDING THREE PER YEAR, MAYBE FOUR. I'M NOT

 

 

SURE.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. AND FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, IT'S HARD TO SAY

 

 

BECAUSE, AS I SAID, I DON'T KEEP TRACK. I WOULD

 

 

BE IN SOUTH FLORIDA, SO THERE WOULD BE A MEETING

 

 

AND THEY WOULD CALL AND SAY, ARE YOU GOING TO BE

 

 

HERE. WOULD YOU COME FOR AN HOUR AND EXPLAIN

 

 

WHERE YOU ARE AT THIS POINT, OR SOMETHING.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. SO, IT HAS DROPPED OFF IN NUMBER. I CAN'T GIVE

 

 

YOU THE EXACT NUMBER. IT MAY BE TWO PER YEAR. IT

 

 

MAY BE THREE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. BUT AT ONE

 

 

POINT, THERE WAS -- WHEN GEORGE AND WE -- STARTING

 

 

EARLY AND WHEN WE WERE WORKING, THERE SEEMED TO BE

 

 

MORE OF THOSE EARLY ON THAN THERE WERE LATER.

 

 

THEY BECAME, I THINK, VERY BUSY WITH OTHER

 

 

ACTIVITIES.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 498

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. WERE THESE OTHER RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT THEY WERE

 

 

DOING?

 

 

A. THAT ONE WAS MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I WAS IN THE

 

 

HALLWAY.

 

 

Q. WELL, NOW, DID THAT BECOME A PROCEDURE, ONCE THERE

 

 

WAS THE SHIFT IN THE EQC, THE HALLWAY BUSINESS --

 

 

OR HAD THAT EXISTED PRIOR TO THE CHANGE IN THE

 

 

CHAIRMANSHIP?

 

 

A. I AM -- NO. WHEN -- I THINK THE VERY FIRST TIME I

 

 

WENT TO EQC, I WAS LEFT STANDING IN THE HALLWAY

 

 

FOR A WHILE BECAUSE THEY WERE DISCUSSING BUSINESS

 

 

MATTERS. THEY DIDN'T KNOW ME, AND I WAS INVITED

 

 

IN FOR MY TIME PERIOD AND I LEFT.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. AND SO THAT'S A -- I THINK IT'S A STANDARD

 

 

PROCEDURE.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S---

 

 

A. THEY PROVIDE NO CHAIRS, BY THE WAY.

 

 

Q. I ASSUMED THAT. NOW, I THOUGHT MY EMPLOYER WAS

 

 

BAD. RICHARDSON NUMBER 8 -- LET'S GO TO PAGE

 

 

NUMBER 2.

 

 

A. WHICH DOCUMENT ARE WE ON, WHICH ONE ARE WE ON,

 

 

NOW?

 

 

Q. RICHARDSON NUMBER 8, PAGE NUMBER 2. YOU'RE

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 499

 

 

TALKING ABOUT PHASE II WILL INCLUDE A

 

 

COMPREHENSIVE GIS ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION,

 

 

SOIL NUTRIENT SORPTION CAPACITY, CATTAIL

 

 

MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES, AND PEAT ACCRETION RATES AS

 

 

EFFECTUATED BY NUTRIENT INPUTS. IS THIS THE

 

 

LANDSCAPE BUSINESS THAT YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT

 

 

TODAY? IS THIS WHAT'S GOING ON?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. THIS WAS SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

 

 

A. YES. REMEMBER---

 

 

Q. DID YOU DO THIS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. THIS WAS NEVER DONE?

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHY?

 

 

A. WE -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, WITH PHASE II, WHICH

 

 

ACTUALLY TURNED OUT, MY RECOLLECTION, TO BE THE

 

 

FIRST EPD PROPOSAL, HAD A FAIRLY EXTENSIVE CATTAIL

 

 

EXPANSION. WELL, WHAT IS LISTED THERE AS ONE OF

 

 

OUR GOALS BECAUSE, EVEN THOUGH I AT THE TIME

 

 

DIDN'T THINK CATTAILS -- CATTAIL EXPANSION WAS THE

 

 

KEY ISSUE, AFTER MY HALF A YEAR OF MOVING THROUGH

 

 

THE EVERGLADES, WHEN THAT WAS PRESENTED TO THE --

 

 

WHEN THAT PROPOSAL WAS PRESENTED TO, I BELIEVE,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 500

 

 

THE EPD, THAT'S WHEN TOM MacVICAR MADE HIS

 

 

STATEMENTS REGARDING, I BELIEVE -- I DON'T WANT TO

 

 

MISQUOTE HIM -- BUT IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR IN MY MIND

 

 

THAT THE CATTAIL ISSUE WAS NOT -- THIS WAS NOT THE

 

 

PUBLIC ENTITY AND THIS WAS NOT THE CORRECT USE AND

 

 

THAT THE DISTRICT DID NOT FEEL CATTAILS WERE THE

 

 

PROBLEM AT THE TIME. AND SO THAT PARTICULAR

 

 

COMPONENT -- THE GIS -- WHICH I THOUGHT WAS

 

 

IMPORTANT TO DO, AND THAT THAT WAS NOT DONE.

 

 

Q. THAT WAS THE -- THAT WAS -- IS THAT YOUR FIRST

 

 

PROPOSAL -- EPD, FIRST PROPOSAL---

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- IN 1990?

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND YOU -- IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY THAT

 

 

BASICALLY IT WAS MR. MacVICAR WHO DEEP-SIXED

 

 

THAT?

 

 

A. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION OF THAT, YES, THAT AT THAT

 

 

PARTICULAR MEETING, IT WAS -- THERE WERE SOME VERY

 

 

STRONG STATEMENTS MADE ON THAT. AND ALSO I THINK

 

 

IN THAT PROPOSAL, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WE HAD

PROPOSED TO STUDY THE HOLEYLAND. AND WE HAD

STARTED ACTUALLY UNDER THE PILOT STUDY TO LOOK AT

PIECES OF THE HOLEYLAND. WE HAD ACTUALLY TAKEN A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 501

FEW SAMPLES IN THE HOLEYLAND, AND IT WAS ALSO MADE

 

 

VERY CLEAR TO ME AT THAT TIME THAT WE DID NOT WANT

 

 

THE HOLEYLAND STUDIED.

 

 

Q. WELL, NOW, WAS MR. MacVICAR DIRECTING YOUR

 

 

RESEARCH OR WAS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

 

 

DISTRICT AND MR. WEDGWORTH AND/OR MR. FANJUL AND

 

 

THAT COMMITTEE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WHOA, WHOA, WHOA.

 

 

Q. I MEAN, WHO WAS MAKING THE DECISIONS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I'M SORRY. I

 

 

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.

 

 

A. IN TERMS OF ACTUAL WHAT'S DONE, I MADE THE

 

 

DECISIONS. BUT, IN TERMS OF PRESENTING MY

 

 

PROPOSAL, I WROTE MY PROPOSAL AT -- THAT WAS THE

 

 

FIRST FORMAL MEETING OF THE EPD. YOU HAVE TO

 

 

REALIZE THAT THAT WAS A NEW ENTITY, A NEW STATE

 

 

BODY. AND, AT THAT POINT, THE THERE WAS A

 

 

BOARD---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND GEORGE WEDGWORTH WASN'T ON THAT BOARD, NOR

DID HE HAVE REPRESENTATIVES ON THAT BOARD, TO MY

 

 

KNOWLEDGE. THERE WERE MEMBERS. THERE WERE

 

 

APPOINTED MEMBERS. I BELIEVE ART KIRSTEIN WAS THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 502

 

 

 

 

HEAD OF THAT BOARD, I BELIEVE.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. BUT THAT BOARD, AT THAT FIRST MEETING, WHEN WE

 

 

MADE -- WHEN I MADE MY PRESENTATION, ESSENTIALLY,

 

 

TOM MacVICAR SAT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT BOARD AT

 

 

THE TOP OF THE TABLE AND SAID THAT HE FELT THAT

 

 

THIS PROPOSAL WAS PLACING WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS

 

 

ON CATTAILS AND THE HOLEYLAND. THAT'S MY

 

 

RECOLLECTION.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT -- YOU KNOW WHAT I HAVEN'T COVERED

 

 

WITH YOU IS HOW WE GET FROM THE EQC AND THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE OVER TO THE EPD---

 

 

A. WELL---

 

 

Q. --- YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: IN RESPONSE TO A

 

 

QUESTION. IS THAT A QUESTION?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: NO, IT PROBABLY WASN'T

 

 

A QUESTION, MR. BURGESS. I CAN FRAME ONE,

 

 

THOUGH, EVEN AT THIS HOUR.

 

 

(BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU WERE FIRST EMPLOYED BY THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. I HAVE -- DUKE UNIVERSITY HAD A CONTRACT WITH THE

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DUKE UNIVERSITY. ALL RIGHT. THEN,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 503

 

 

 

 

SUBSEQUENTLY, YOUR RESEARCH CAME TO BE FUNDED BY

 

 

THE EPD?

 

 

A. THAT IS CORRECT.

 

 

Q. AND I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT MR. WEDGWORTH IS THE

 

 

ONE WHO SET UP THE EPD?

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HOW

 

 

THE EPD CAME TO BE FORMED?

 

 

A. WELL, I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL THE INTRICACIES,

 

 

BUT IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT IT WENT THROUGH

 

 

THE STATE LEGISLATURE IN FLORIDA, AND THAT IT

 

 

WAS---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE AND PUT INTO AS A

 

 

PUBLIC SUNSHINE-LAWED ENTITY FOR ENVIRONMENTAL

 

 

RESEARCH.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHO THE MAIN PEOPLE IN THE

 

 

AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY WERE WHO PROMOTED THIS

 

 

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT OR EVERGLADES

 

 

PROTECTION DISTRICT?

 

 

A. I HAD HEARD THAT THERE WAS THIS GROUP THAT DID

 

 

IT, BUT I WAS NOT FAMILIAR I WAS NOT INVOLVED

 

 

WITH THIS -- ANY OF THAT WORK. SO I DON'T --

 

 

CAN'T SAY WHO DID WHAT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 504

 

 

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE WERE? DO YOU HAVE

 

 

ANY IDEA WHO THE PEOPLE WERE?

 

 

A. WELL, I ASSUME THEY WERE PEOPLE RELATED TO THE

 

 

INDUSTRY, BUT I DON'T KNOW SPECIFICALLY WHO WENT,

 

 

WHO WROTE, WHO DID, WHO DRAFTED.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SURE.

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

Q. HOW DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOUR WORK SHOULD BE DONE

 

 

THROUGH THE EPD, AS OPPOSED TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR

 

 

CANE LEAGUE? WHEN DID THAT IDEA FIRST EMERGE?

 

 

DID SOMEONE COME TO YOU AND SUGGEST IT, OR DID YOU

 

 

SUGGEST IT TO THEM? I MEAN, HOW DID THAT COME

 

 

ABOUT?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE ED BARBER TOLD ME THAT THERE WOULD BE A

 

 

NEW ENTITY -- A PUBLIC ENTITY THAT I SHOULD BE

 

 

VERY HAPPY WITH, THAT I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING IN

 

 

THE FUTURE TO APPLY TO THAT WOULD BE -- WOULD HAVE

 

 

ALL OF THE ASPECTS THAT I HAD BEEN WANTING IN

 

 

TERMS OF MAINTAINING A GRANT, AN INDEPENDENCE,

 

 

AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. THAT WAS THE -- THIS NEW

 

 

ENTITY. AND THAT, IN FACT, THE LEAGUE WOULD NO

LONGER DO THIS TYPE OF WORK. THEY WERE MOVING

 

 

INTO OTHER ACTIVITIES, AND THAT I SHOULD APPLY A

 

 

GRANT THROUGH THE EPD.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 505

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT YOU DID CONTINUE THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS

 

 

TIME TO HAVE THIS SEPARATE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WHEREBY YOU RECEIVED

 

 

MONIES FOR DOING VARIOUS TASKS?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. THAT BEGAN IN '89 AND HAS CONTINUED THROUGH

 

 

THE PRESENT?

 

 

A. TO BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN DID THIS SHIFT OCCUR? DO YOU

 

 

REMEMBER?

 

 

A. WHICH SHIFT?

 

 

Q. FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE TO THE EPD.

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THAT TOOK PLACE, LIKE WELL, THE FIRST

 

 

FUNDING FOR THE EPD TOOK PLACE I BELIEVE WAS

 

 

APPROVED IN JANUARY OF '90.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU SUBMITTED YOUR

 

 

PROPOSAL?

 

 

A. OBVIOUSLY, SOMETIME IN THE FALL OF '89.

 

 

Q. HOW OFTEN DID THE EPD MEET?

 

 

A. IT USUALLY MEETS, IN MY UNDERSTANDING, ONCE A

 

 

MONTH.

 

 

Q. IT MET ON A MONTHLY BASIS? OKAY. LET ME SHOW YOU

 

 

AN EXHIBIT OF AN EPD MEETING THAT YOU'RE MENTIONED

 

 

AT. I THINK YOU HAD COPIES OF THIS IN YOUR FILES.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 506

 

 

 

 

DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS DOCUMENT? CAN YOU IDENTIFY

 

 

THIS DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. GIVE ME A MOMENT TO PLEASE---

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. YES, THIS APPEARS TO BE ABOUT THE RIGHT TIME IN

 

 

RELATIONSHIP TO -- AS I THINK I JUST MENTIONED

 

 

EARLIER, THE PROPOSAL WAS SUBMITTED SOMETIME IN

 

 

THE FALL OF '89.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WAS THIS THE MEETING AT WHICH YOU BELIEVE

 

 

MR. MacVICAR INDICATED HE WASN'T INTERESTED IN

 

 

CATTAILS OR THE DISTRICT WASN'T INTERESTED IN

 

 

CATTAILS? YOU WERE AT THE MEETING WHERE

 

 

MR. MacVICAR SAID, WE DO NOT CONSIDER CATTAILS A

 

 

PROBLEM. IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. I WAS AT THAT MEETING. AND, AS I SAID, I'M

 

 

NOT SURE THAT'S THE EXACT PHRASEOLOGY. I

 

 

BELIEVE -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE ANY WRITTEN

 

 

NOTES ON THAT. MY RECOLLECTION IS, I DIDN'T SAY

 

 

HE SAID IT WAS NO PROBLEM. I THINK HE SAID THERE

 

 

WAS AN OVEREMPHASIS IN THIS PROPOSAL TO STUDY

 

 

CATTAILS, AND HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE EMPHASIS ON

 

 

THAT.

 

 

DID HE ACTUALLY SEE YOUR PROPOSAL TO THE EPD? HE

 

 

ACTUALLY SAW THE ONE YOU WERE SUBMITTING?

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 507

 

 

 

 

A. I'M QUITE SURE HE DID. I CAN'T SWEAR TO THAT. I

 

 

MEAN---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- HE SEEMED TO ASK QUESTIONS RELATED TO THAT, I

 

 

BELIEVE.

 

 

Q. I GUESS I'D LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR -- WHAT I

 

 

BELIEVE IS YOUR PROPOSAL THAT YOU'RE REFERENCING.

 

 

IT'S JANUARY 1, 1990, AMOUNT REQUESTED, SEVEN

 

 

HUNDRED AND THIRTY-TWO THOUSAND, SEVEN HUNDRED AND

 

 

FIVE ($732,705.00). IS THAT RIGHT? WELL, THIS IS

 

 

AN EXPERT DOCUMENT YOUR LAWYER'S GOT TO---

 

 

A. THAT'S PRODUCIBLE FOR ME?

 

 

Q. YEAH, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE ONE FOR YOU.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: ARE WE GOING TO MARK

 

 

THE MINUTES AS NINE, JUST SO WE STAY IN

 

 

SUCCESSION?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, LET'S MARK THE

 

 

MINUTES AS NINE.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL SEEING THESE

 

 

MINUTES, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I MAY HAVE. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THESE SINCE

 

 

AND THIS IS A LONG TIME AGO. I MAY HAVE. I MEAN,

 

 

I GET SO MUCH INFORMATION.

 

 

Q. THESE WERE PRODUCED FROM AMONG YOUR DOCUMENTS, NOT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 5O8

 

 

 

 

FROM MR. BURGESS' FIRM, BUT AMONG THE DOCUMENTS

 

 

PRODUCED BY THE DUKE---

 

 

A. I UNDERSTAND. AND THEY---

 

 

Q. --- CENTER.

 

 

A. --- I'M SORRY. TtiEY PROBABLY, AGAIN, CAME FROM

 

 

LISA'S FILES. WifEN SHE HAS SOME FILES RELATED TO

 

 

EPD, SHE FILES IT. AND SO I HAVEN'T -- YOU KNOW,

 

 

I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT IT IN AGES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S MARK THOSE AS

 

 

RICHARDSON NUMBER NINE, AND LET'S MARK YOUR

 

 

PROPOSAL AS RICHARDSON NUMBER TEN.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS REFERRED

 

 

TO ABOVE WERE MARKED AS EXHIBIT

 

 

NUMBERS 9 & 10 - DR. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

WITNESS: THEY DIDN'T KNOW ME VERY WELL

 

 

THEN. THEY HAVE ME DOWN AS---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: DO YOU HAVE COPIES OF

 

 

THAT?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: NO.

 

 

WITNESS: --- THEY MISSPELLED MY NAME.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I PROBABLY HAVE ONE FOR

 

 

HIM.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE CHANGING NUMBERS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 509

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: DID I CHANGE NUMBERS?

 

 

MR. REID: NINE WAS THE EXHIBIT ABOUT

 

 

ALL THE---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: SHE NEVER MARKED THEM.

 

 

MR. REID: --- PRIVILEGED DOCUMENTS.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK IT WAS EVER

 

 

MARKED.

MS. PONZOLI: WE DIDN'T ATTACH IT.

 

 

MR. REID: OH.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WE DIDN'T ATTACH IT.

 

 

MR. REID: THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO.

 

 

OKAY.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WE CAN. I MEAN, DID YOU

 

 

REALLY WANT TO? I THINK---

MR. REID: NO.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- WE'VE ALREADY DONE THIS

 

 

ONE AS NINE. WE ALREADY IDENTIFIED THIS ONE

 

 

AS NINE. ALL RIGHT. LET'S DO NINE AS THE

 

 

MINUTES.

 

 

WITNESS: NO, WE'VE ALREADY DONE THIS

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 510

 

 

 

 

ONE.

MS. PONZOLI: AND TEN.

 

 

MR. REID: THAT'S RIGHT. AND THIS IS

 

 

EIGHT.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OFF THE RECORD.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: BACK ON THE RECORD.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IS RICHARDSON NUMBER TEN YOUR

 

 

PROPOSAL THAT WAS DISCUSSED AT THE MEETING WHERE

 

 

MR. MacVICAR INDICATED THAT, AT LEAST IN HIS VIEW,

 

 

THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT WAS NOT THAT

 

 

CONCERNED ABOUT CATTAIL EXPANSION?

 

 

A. THIS IS THE PROPOSAL. YES, I BELIEVE THAT I

 

 

DISCUSSED THAT. WHETHER I CAN ATTEST TO THE FACT

 

 

THAT THIS WAS THE EXACT MEETING, I DO NOT KNOW.

 

 

Q. OKAY. I UNDERSTAND, I UNDERSTAND.

 

 

A. IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANOTHER MEETING, BUT IT WAS ONE

 

 

MEETING.

 

 

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WE NOW HAVE I THINK IN

 

 

TRUTH, THAT MR. REID WAS RIGHT. I THINK WE SHOULD

 

 

ATTACH THE PRIVILEGED LIST.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 511

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO

 

 

TURN YOURS BACK TO YOU?

 

 

MR. REID: NO, THANK YOU.

MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. I THINK WE

SHOULD MAKE THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER ELEVEN.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M ALWAYS AHEAD OF

 

 

MY TIME.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YES.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 11- CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU EVER SEE THIS PRIVILEGED

 

 

LIST, RICHARDSON NUMBER 11, DR. RICHARDSON, BEFORE

 

 

IT WAS SENT TO UNITED STATES OR WAS THAT JUST DONE

 

 

BY YOUR LAWYER?

 

 

A. IT WAS DONE BY THE LAWYER, PRIMARILY. I THINK I

 

 

MAY HAVE GOTTEN A COPY OF IT YESTERDAY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT---

 

 

A. I DIDN'T SEE IT BEFORE THEN.

 

 

Q. SURE. I'M GOING TO APOLOGIZE, BUT I HAVE TO DO

 

 

SOME JUMPING AMONG THE DOCUMENTS. SO I'LL TELL

 

 

YOU WHICH ONE I'M REFERENCING AND GIVE YOU MY

 

 

QUESTION AND ASK YOU TO BEAR WITH ME. YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 512

 

 

PROBABLY---

 

 

A. OKAY. WHICH ONES ARE WE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT,

 

 

8, 9, 10?

 

 

Q. WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT---

 

 

A. 9?

 

 

Q. --- 8 AND 11, FIRST.

 

 

A. 8 AND 11. I GRABBED THE WRONG TWO. OKAY.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. OKAY.

 

 

A. 8 AND 11. OKAY.

 

 

Q. IT'S SORT OF IN THIS WHOLE SERIES OF DOCUMENTS.

 

 

THEY'RE FEEDING TOGETHER. YOU REMEMBER IN

 

 

RICHARDSON NUMBER 8 THE PROPOSAL TO DO GIS

 

 

ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION, WHICH YOU SAID

 

 

WAS---

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- WAS PULLED BACK AND NOT DONE, AT YOUR

 

 

DECISION?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU PLEASE LOOK AT RICHARDSON

 

 

NUMBER 11 AND TELL ME IF NUMBER 63 ON PAGE 7 IS,

 

 

IN FACT, A PROPOSAL TO DO THAT WORK?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I CAN TELL YOU THAT

IT'S NOT. I DID THE WORK.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT'S NOT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 513

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: NO.

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. I DON'T REMEMBER EVER

 

 

SEEING A PROPOSAL TO DO THAT WORK.

 

 

Q. OKAY. OKAY. THIS DOES DAY IT'S BY ES&P. SO YOU

 

 

DID NOT SEND YOUR PROPOSALS THROUGH ES&P OR DO A

 

 

JOINT EFFORT WITH ES&P?

 

 

A. I DID NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU---

 

 

A. I THINK THAT'S A YEAR EARLIER THAN THIS.

 

 

Q. WELL, IT IS; BUT, I MEAN, PIECING THIS WHOLE THING

 

 

BACK TOGETHER---

 

 

A. SURE.

 

 

Q. --- IS SIMILAR TO PIECING THE EVERGLADES BACK

 

 

TOGETHER. IT'S JUST ABOUT AS DIFFICULT.

 

 

I'D LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT

 

 

REGARDING GIS SATELLITE IMAGERY AND ASK YOU IF,

 

 

TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IT'S EITHER ONE OF THESE

 

 

EFFORTS?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT'S -- WE'LL MAKE

 

 

THIS RICHARDSON NUMBER 12.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 514

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 12 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. HERE'S 102. CAN YOU

 

 

IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. 102.

 

 

Q. THIS WOULD BE RICHARDSON NUMBER 11.

 

 

MR. GREEN: NO, NUMBER 12.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: 12. I'M SORRY. I'm

 

 

SORRY. I CAN'T COUNT.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I JUST -- CAN YOU IDENTIFY THE

 

 

DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. IT LOOKS LIKE A LETTER FROM CHARLES SCHOECH TO ME

 

 

IN '89, AWARDING THE PROPOSAL.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. THE REST OF THE DOCUMENTATION, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT

 

 

IT IS.

 

 

Q. WELL, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK BACK TO THE ERIM,

 

 

 

 

 

 

E-R-I-M, CORRESPONDENCE AND ASK YOU IF THIS IS

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 515

 

 

 

 

CORRESPONDENCE RELATED TO RICHARDSON NUMBER 8,

 

 

YOUR GIS ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION.

 

 

A. IS IT RELATED TO THIS?

 

 

Q. WELL, WAS THIS A PROPOSAL THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER,

 

 

AT YOUR REQUEST, FOR 5/1?

 

 

A. LET ME JUST LOOK AT THIS AND SEE WHAT HE SAID

 

 

HERE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. WHILE HE'S

 

 

LOOKING, YOU SAID HIS REQUEST FOR 5/1.

 

 

WHAT WERE YOU REFERRING TO?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: 5/1 IS IN RICHARDSON

 

 

NUMBER 8 ON THE SECOND PAGE---

 

 

MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- WHERE HE HAS TALKED

 

 

ABOUT HAVING ERIM DO REMOTE SENSING AND

 

 

GIS ANALYSIS.

 

 

MR. GREEN: RIGHT.

 

 

A. OKAY. THIS -- INITIALLY, I THINK YOU SEE FROM

 

 

I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER HERE -- 8, I HAD PROPOSED

 

 

THAT UNDER NUMBER 1 5(a)(1), IF YOU'RE WITH ME, ON

PAGE 2, ERIM, THAT THEY HAD AGREED TO WORK WITH US

 

 

TO ASSESS THE EXPANSION OF CATTAILS OVER BOTH TIME

 

 

AND AREA.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 516

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. OKAY. THE PERSON THAT WAS CONTACTED WAS ERIC

 

 

KASISCHKE, WHO WAS A RESEARCH SCIENTIST FOR ERIM.

 

 

OKAY?

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. SO I INITIALLY CONTACTED ERIC. AS I SAID, I THINK

 

 

YESTERDAY, I HAD HAD CONTACT WITH ERIM FOR -- WHEN

 

 

I WAS ON THE FACULTY AT MICHIGAN, SO I KNEW SOME

 

 

OF THESE PEOPLE, AND ASKED THEM IF THEY WOULD BE

 

 

INTERESTED TO WORK WITH US SINCE REMOTE SENSING

 

 

REQUIRES A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF EQUIPMENT AND

 

 

ALGORITHM SOFTWARE PACKAGES THAT TYPICAL --

 

 

TYPICALLY WE DO NOT HAVE AT DUKE---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND THAT I WANTED TO WORK WITH SOMEONE WHO

 

 

REALLY KNEW THE BUSINESS. SO THAT LETTER STARTED

 

 

OUT -- BASICALLY, I THINK I TALKED TO HIM.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. THIS LETTER IS ACTUALLY TO PAUL LARSON, NOT TO ME.

 

 

THAT'S---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- FROM ERIC.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. AND WE STARTED OUT ON SORT OF A TRACK. AND THAT'S

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 517

 

 

 

 

 

 

MY LETTER TO BARBARA, WHO WAS SAYING -- I THINK IT

 

 

WAS BARBARA -- SAYING THAT I HAD CONTACTED THEM

 

 

AND THEY WOULD AGREE TO BE INTERESTED TO CONSIDER

 

 

DOING THAT WORK.

 

 

Q. DID THEY DO THAT WORK?

 

 

A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, YES, THEY DID DO THAT WORK.

 

 

Q. THIS WORK HAS BEEN DONE, AND IT'S IN THE

 

 

POSSESSION OF MR. LARSON, TO THE BEST OF YOUR

 

 

KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHOSE POSSESSION IT IS, BUT I WOULD

 

 

ASSUME IT IS.

 

 

Q. BUT YOU KNOW THAT THE WORK -- YOU BELIEVE THE WORK

 

 

TO HAVE BEEN DONE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THE WORK TO HAVE BEEN DONE. IT WAS NOT

 

 

DONE FOR ME.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU SEE IT?

 

 

A. I HAVE SEEN PORTIONS OF IT.

 

 

Q. ARE THESE THE SATELLITE IMAGES THAT YOU WERE

 

 

REFERENCING BEFORE?

 

 

A. SOME OF THEM, YES.

 

 

Q. WERE THESE PRODUCED TO THE UNITED STATES AMONG

 

 

YOUR DOCUMENTS?

 

 

A. NO, THEY WERE NOT.

 

 

Q. WHY NOT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 518

 

 

 

 

A. I WAS INSTRUCTED NOT TO PRODUCE THEM.

 

 

Q. HOW MANY ARE THERE?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. FOUR OR FIVE, OR SOMETHING LIKE

 

 

THAT, PHOTOGRAPHS, IMAGES.

 

 

Q. AND YOU HAVE THEM IN YOUR POSSESSION AS FULL-SIZED

 

 

SATELLITE IMAGES?

 

 

A. I HAVE NONE OF THE RAW DATA. I HAVE SLIDES.

 

 

Q. YOU ONLY POSSESS SLIDES?

 

 

A. I ONLY POSSESS SLIDES. I HAVE SOME POSTERS

 

 

RELATED TO THESE. I HAVE NO RAW DATA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU HAVE A BIG PHOTOGRAPH. YOU JUST

 

 

DON'T HAVE THE RAW DATA THAT GOES WITH THE

 

 

PHOTOGRAPH. IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO THESE SHOW?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: INSTRUCT HIM NOT

 

 

TO ANSWER.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM

 

 

NOT TO ANSWER?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: BUT HE'S FORMING OPINIONS

 

 

ON THIS. HE SAID SO. HIS LANDSCAPE DESIGN

 

 

IS BEING BASED PARTIALLY ON THIS,

 

 

MR. BURGESS. HOW CAN YOU KEEP ME FROM

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 519

 

 

DISCOVERING THIS? HE'S ALREADY SAID THAT HE

 

 

ANTICIPATES GIVING TESTIMONY. HE'S

 

 

DEVELOPING IT FOR TRIAL.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DON'T RECALL -- I'LL

 

 

HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES. I DON'T RECALL

 

 

HIM SAYING THAT HE'S DEVELOPING TESTIMONY

 

 

THAT HE ANTICIPATES GIVING AT TRIAL BASED

 

 

UPON THESE LANDSAT PHOTOGRAPHS.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S PART OF HIS

 

 

LANDSCAPE DESIGN FOR HOW THE EVERGLADES

 

 

OUGHT TO BE MANAGED, I THOUGHT. YOU'RE

 

 

INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO TELL ME WHAT THE

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHS SHOW?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: BASED ON WHAT?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I THINK I WENT INTO

 

 

THIS YESTERDAY. THEY'RE MY WORK PRODUCT.

 

 

HE JUST SAID THEY WEREN'T DONE FOR HIM.

 

 

THAT'S THE WAY THE PROPOSAL ORIGINALLY READS.

 

 

THAT'S NOT THE WAY THE PROPOSAL WAS

 

 

CONDUCTED.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: AND WHEN, IN YOUR THEORY,

 

 

MR. BURGESS, ARE THEY GOING TO BECOME

 

 

DISCOVERABLE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 520

 

 

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: IFLL TELL YOU IN THE

 

 

MORNING. I THINK I'VE ALREADY SAID FOUR TO

 

 

SIX WEEKS. I'D LIKE TO REVIEW THIS IN LIGHT

 

 

OF HIS TESTIMONY TODAY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT

 

 

ON THE RECORD, MR. BURGESS, THAT I AM A VERY

 

 

PERSISTENT AND A RELATIVELY PATIENT PERSON.

 

 

AND I HAVE A CLIENT THAT IS REALLY THE SAME.

 

 

BUT THESE DEPOSITIONS AND THESE TRIPS TO

 

 

NORTH CAROLINA ARE EXCEEDINGLY EXPENSIVE.

 

 

AND THE PUBLIC IS PAYING FOR A LARGE AMOUNT

 

 

OF EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON AT THIS TABLE.

 

 

AND I THINK THAT IT IS A COLOSSAL WASTE OF

THE PUBLIC'S MONEY THAT I HAVE TO RETURN

 

 

AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN TO NORTH CAROLINA

 

 

TO CONDUCT DISCOVERY THAT COULD, QUITE

 

 

HONESTLY, BE DONE IN A MUCH SIMPLER, LESS

 

 

EXPENSIVE WAY. AND I THINK THAT'S WRONG.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: NO ONE'S FORCED YOU TO

 

 

TAKE ALL THE DEPOSITIONS UP HERE THAT YOU'VE

 

 

TAKEN.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YES, I BELIEVE---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: NO ONEFS FORCED YOU TO---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- I BELIEVE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 521

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: --- COPY BOXES AND BOXES

 

 

AND BOXES OF DOCUMENTS.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, IT'S ACTUALLY BEEN

 

 

QUITE A REFRESHING EXPERIENCE, SINCE THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE HAS, FOR ALL THE

 

 

TIME THAT WE HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED SINCE

 

 

BELLE GLADE AND CLEWISTON WERE ALLOWED INTO

 

 

THE FEDERAL LITIGATION, REFUSED TO TURN OVER

 

 

ANY DOCUMENTS DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT'S VERY

 

 

CLEAR FROM DR. RICHARDSON'S TESTIMONY, HIS

 

 

DOCUMENTS, YOUR PRIVILEGE LIST AND EVERYTHING

 

 

THAT EXISTS, INCLUDING A FEDERAL ORDER FROM

 

 

JUDGE HOEVELER, THAT YOU HAVE NOT TURNED

 

 

OVER DISCOVERY FOR A PROTRACTED PERIOD OF

 

 

TIME.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DONFT AGREE AT ALL.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK THE RECORD

 

 

SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. I'M GOTNG TO CERTIFY THE

 

 

QUESTION.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ITEM SIXTY-THREE ON THE

 

 

PRIVILEGED LIST IS DATED 5/06/88. IS THAT AN

 

 

ACCURATE DATE, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I WOULD ASSUME SO. I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE IT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 522

 

 

 

 

IS NOT AN ACCURATE DATE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S

 

 

ACCURATE, MR. BURGESS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: PROMISES TO TELL THE

 

 

TRUTH, YES, I DO. YES, IT IS ACCURATE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, NO, I MEAN, I'M

 

 

ASKING.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YES, MA'AM.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU KNOW, IF IT WERE A

 

 

TYPO, YOU CAN SAVE US SOME DIFFICULTY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THEN, WERE YOU A CONSULTANT IN

 

 

'88 FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. I WAS NOT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THEN, I DON'T SEE HOW

 

 

IT COULD BE PRIVILEGED.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OH, IT VERY -- IT VERY

 

 

EASILY COULD BE PRIVILEGED. IT DOESN'T

 

 

MATTER WHETliER HE WAS A CONSULTANT OR NOT.

 

 

IF IT STARTS OUT AS MY WORK PRODUCT, NO

 

 

MATTER WHERE IT'S FOUND, IT'S NOT WAIVED IF

 

 

SOMEONE WITH AN UMBRELLA OF COMMON INTEREST

 

 

HAS A DOCUMENT. I DON'T TREAT THE WORK

 

 

PRODUCT PRIVILEGE THE SAME AS ATTORNEY-CLIENT

 

 

PRIVILEGE WITH RESPECT TO WAIVER.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE S23

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU JUST GRAB IT BACK

 

 

AND KEEP IT, HUH?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, IS

 

 

MR. KASISCHKE, AT ERIM, WORKING WITH THE LEAGUE

 

 

NOW, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

A. DR. KASISCHKE IS STILL EMPLOYED BY ERIM, TO MY

 

 

KNOWLEDGE.

 

 

Q. AND ARE THEY STILL DOING WORK FOR THE LEAGUE, TO

 

 

YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY ARE NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WAS HE AT ANY OF THESE LITIGATION MEETINGS

 

 

THAT YOU ATTENDED OVER TIME?

 

 

A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN AT ONE MEETING.

 

 

Q. WHICH MEETING WAS THAT?

 

 

A. IT WAS A MEETING, I BELIEVE, TO REVIEW SOME OF THE

 

 

WORK RELATED TO THIS PROPOSAL.

 

 

Q. ARE YOU USING IN YOUR PRESENT EFFORTS TO PREPARE

 

 

YOUR -- WHAT DID YOU CALL IT -- A LANDSCAPE? WHAT

 

 

WAS IT? WHAT'S THE PROPER TITLE?

 

 

A. LANDSCAPE ECOLOGY VIEW.

 

 

Q. OKAY. YOUR LANDSCAPE ECOLOGY VIEW ARE YOU

 

 

USING THESE SATELLITE IMAGES AS PART OF THAT

 

 

INFORMATION?

 

 

A. THEY'RE NOT AN INTEGRAL PART OF THAT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 524

 

 

 

 

Q. WELL, NOT JUST AN INTEGRAL PART. ARE YOU USING

 

 

THEM?

 

 

A. I MEAN, I -- THEY'RE SORT OF LOCKED IN MY DATA

 

 

BANK UP HERE IN TERMS OF HOW THEYFRE USED. I'm

 

 

NOT USING THEM IN A---

 

 

Q. YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THEM OUT FROM ALL YOUR OTHER

 

 

KNOWLEDGE OF THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. I'M NOT USING THEM IN A QUANTIFYING -- QUANTIFIED

 

 

WAY. I USE THEM IN CERTAIN WAYS FOR CERTAIN

 

 

ASPECTS.

 

 

Q. IN WHAT WAYS?

 

 

A. IN WHAT WAYS, RELATED TO?

 

 

Q. WHAT WAYS ARE YOU USING THEM?

 

 

A. WELL, PRIMARILY, I UTILIZED THESE AS AN EARLY -- I

 

 

NEEDED TO GET SOME TYPE OF A -- AS MOST ECOLOGISTS

 

 

DO, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, YOU NEED TO GET SOME

 

 

TYPE OF A PERSPECTIVE ON THE SYSTEM. AND SO,

 

 

FROM MY LOW-ELEVATION FLIGHTS AND MY PLOT

 

 

ESTABLISHMENTS AND SO FORTH, WHEN THESE WERE DONE,

 

 

I BASICALLY SINCE I WAS WORKING IN SOME OF THE

 

 

SAME AREAS UTILIZED SOME OF THIS INFORMATION TO

 

 

DETERMINE SOME GENERAL AREAS THAT HAD -- PRIMARILY

 

 

IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A -- THAT HAD BEEN

 

 

RECEIVING WATER AND NUTRIENTS. I UTILIZED THOSE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 525

 

 

 

 

TO SEE IF PATTERNS CAN BE DETERMINED; TO SEE IF

 

 

VEGETATION RESPONSES WERE EVIDENT; AND TO TRY TO

 

 

GIVE ME A BETTER HANDLE ON WHAT THE SYSTEM LOOKED

 

 

LIKE, OF COURSE, FROM COLOR-ENHANCED AND

 

 

COMPUTER-ENHANCED SYSTEMS THAT WOULD BE FOCUSED TO

 

 

GROUND TRUTHING.

 

 

Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DR. RICHARDSON, YOU TOLD US

 

 

EARLIER TODAY THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE CATTAIL

 

 

EXPANSION AREA IS NOT REALLY EXPANDING AT ANY

 

 

DISTURBING RATE. IS THAT A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION

 

 

OF YOUR TESTIMONY?

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE STUDIED RATES. IT JUST

 

 

APPEARS THAT, TO ME, FROM MY EVIDENCE THAT I THINK

 

 

I SAID, NUMBER ONE, I DON'T THINK IT IS A

 

 

SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM FOR THE EVERGLADES. IT'S A

 

 

LOCALIZED PROBLEM. AND, NUMBER TWO, I DON'T THINK

 

 

IT'S EXPANDING AT THIS ALARMING RATE THAT PEOPLE

 

 

HAVE PROPOSED.

 

 

Q. HAVE THESE LANDSAT -- SATELLITE IMAGES -- OR THESE

 

 

SATELLITE IMAGES HELPED YOU COME TO THAT

 

 

CONCLUSION?

 

 

A. THEY HAVE GIVEN ME SOME INSIGHTS INTO THAT, YES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: MR. BURGESS, I THINK

 

 

THESE ARE HIGHLY DISCOVERABLE DOCUMENTS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 526

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: FOR THE THIRD TIME, I'LL

 

 

TELL YOU AGAIN, I TOLD YOU I WOULD REVIEW

 

 

THAT IN LIGHT OF HIS TESTIMONY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU DO ANY GROUND TRUTHING

FOR THESE SATELLITE IMAGES, DR. RICHARDSON, OR DID

ANY OF YOUR PEOPLE DO GROUND TRUTHING?

 

 

A. AS I SAID, SOME OF THE AREAS THAT ARE COVERED BY

 

 

THESE LANDSAT PHOTOS ARE DIRECTLY IN LINE OF OUR

 

 

PLOTS. SO, I WOULD HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THESE TO THE

 

 

LANDSAT. I DID NOT DO AN EXTENSIVE GROUND

 

 

TRUTHING TO THESE SITES. I USED -- I DID A

 

 

CURSORY ANALYSIS, AS WE WERE MOVING THROUGH OUR

 

 

GRADIENT STUDY SO THAT WE WOULD HAVE SOME IDEA IF

 

 

THERE WAS SOME CORRESPONDENCE. THE GROUND

 

 

TRUTHING TO DO THIS WAS DONE BY ERIM -- THE EXTENT

 

 

OF GROUND TRUTHING TO---

 

 

Q. THEY ACTUALLY WENT ON THE GROUND AND DID

 

 

APPROPRIATE GROUND TRUTHING---

 

 

A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY DID---

 

 

Q. ---TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

 

 

A. ---EXTENSIVE GROUND TRUTHING TO PRODUCE THE TYPES

 

 

OF REMOTE SENSING PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WOULD BE

 

 

USEFUL.

 

 

OKAY. DID YOU DO ANY CONSULTATION WITH THEM TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE S27

 

 

 

 

SAY THAT YOU AGREED WITH THEIR RESULTS -- THEIR

 

 

INTERPRETATIONS OF THE SATELLITE IMAGES?

 

 

A. I MAY HAVE HAD SOME VERBAL CONVERSATION. I HAD NO

 

 

WRITTEN ANALYSES OF THIS.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. BUT YOU CONFIRMED THAT YOUR INTERPRETATION

 

 

FROM YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE GROUND EITHER CONFORMED

 

 

OR DIDN'T CONFORM TO THEIR---

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- INTERPRETATION?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. AND DID YOU FIND THAT IT DID CONFORM TO YOUR

 

 

EXPERIENCE ON THE GROUND?

 

 

A. REASONABLY WELL, YES, FOR THE AREAS I LOOKED AT.

 

 

I DID NOT LOOK AT ALL THE AREAS, SINCE---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- THESE ARE EXTENSIVE AREAS THAT ARE COVERED. I

 

 

WAS NOT DOING RESEARCH IN ALL THE AREAS.

 

 

Q. DID THEY DO ALL THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS?

 

 

A. I THINK PRETTY MUCH. I CAN'T REMEMBER. THE

 

 

REASON I HESITATE, I CAN'T REMEMBER IF THERE'S A

 

 

LITTLE -- BECAUSE THEY COME ON -- THESE

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHS COME IN -- PLATES IS NOT THE CORRECT

 

 

WORD -- BUT THEY COME IN SCENES, AND YOU BUY

 

 

SCENES. AND SO I -- SOMETIMES A SCENE WILL COME,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 528

 

 

YOU HAVE TO BUY TWO SCENES, AND YOU MAY HAVE JUST

 

 

A LITTLE PIECE NOT THERE. AND I CAN'T REMEMBER

 

 

IF A LITTLE PIECE IS MISSING OR NOT IN ONE OF

 

 

THEM. BUT I BELIEVE IT COVERS ALL OF THE

 

 

CONSERVATION AREAS.

 

 

Q. DOES IT COVER ALL THE EVERGLADES, INCLUDING THE

 

 

PARK?

 

 

A. IT DOES NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION BACK TO

 

 

ERIM TO HELP THEM IN DOING THIS?

 

 

A. NO, OTHER THAN JUST, AS I SAID, OCCASIONAL

 

 

COMMENTS THAT WERE MADE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IS THIS YOUR 12, OR MY 12?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YEAH, MINE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT'S YOURS? WHERE'S MINE?

 

 

IN MY LAP?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE YOU TO LOOK

 

 

IN RICHARDSON NUMBER 12.

 

 

A. DO I HAVE 12, HERE?

 

 

Q. I JUST FOUND MINE. NOW, YOU HAVE TO FIND YOURS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 529

 

 

 

 

A. WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? OH, IS THAT THE---

 

 

Q. IT'S THIS ONE. IT'S 102 AT THE TOP, AND IT'S

 

 

RICHARDSON NUMBER 12.

 

 

A. OH, OKAY.

 

 

Q. OKAY?

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. IF YOU WOULD, LOOK AT THE SECOND PAGE FROM THE

 

 

END.

 

 

A. OKAY. THIS IS A PLATE, OR FIGURE.

 

 

Q. YES, SIR. YES, SIR. DOES THIS HAVE ANYTHING

 

 

TO DO WITH THESE LANDSAT IMAGES THAT WE'RE

 

 

DISCUSSING?

 

 

A. WELL, I HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THIS PROPOSAL IN A

 

 

LONG TIME. SO, IT'S -- JUST LET ME SEE. I REALLY

 

 

HAVEN'T REVIEWED THIS.

 

 

Q. TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND LOOK AT IT.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT IS, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. WELL, FROM A VERY CURSORY LOOK AT THIS, IT WOULD

 

 

APPEAR THAT THIS FIGURE 1 IS AN AREA THAT --

 

 

WHERE EOASAT PHOTOS OR SATELLITE IMAGERY WOULD

 

 

BE AVAILABLE FOR THAT REGION. IT WOULD BE MY

 

 

GUESS -- AS I SAID, I WOULD -- I HAD NOT -- THEY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 530

 

 

 

 

DID NOT SEND THIS PROPOSAL TO ME, NOR DID I HELP

 

 

WRITE THIS PROPOSAL.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. THAT THAT WAS AN AREA THAT WAS AVAILABLE FROM

 

 

CERTAIN LANDSAT IMAGERY AND THAT COVERED THOSE

 

 

PARTICULAR AREAS, AND THAT THAT'S THE AREA THAT

 

 

THEY PROPOSED THAT THEY COULD OBTAIN SATELLITE

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHS OR IMAGERY FROM, BECAUSE THEY'RE

 

 

TECHNICALLY NOT PHOTOGRAPHS.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. AND ARE THESE THE AREAS THAT YOU BELIEVE

 

 

ARE REPRESENTED, FROM WHAT YOU RECALL?

 

 

A. THOSE AREAS WILL BE INCLUDED IN THERE. I BELIEVE

 

 

SO.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW THE TYPE OF GROUND TRUTHING THAT WAS

 

 

DONE, HOW THE DATA WAS COLLECTED?

 

 

A. I HAVE LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF THAT. IN FACT, I HAVE

 

 

NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT. I WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH

 

 

THAT. THE ONLY COMMENT -- I SAY I HAVE LITTLE

 

 

KNOWLEDGE. ALL I KNOW IS THAT DISCUSSIONS WERE

 

 

MADE THAT THEY WERE DOING THIS.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU AWARE OF OTHER SATELLITE

 

 

IMAGERY WORK BEING DONE ON BEHALF OF PERHAPS A

 

 

COOPERATIVE?

 

 

A. I AM NOT. I DON'T THINK SO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 531

 

 

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU REVIEWED ANY OTHER SATELLITE IMAGERY,

 

 

OTHER THAN THIS SATELLITE IMAGERY?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM

 

 

OF THE QUESTION.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) FOR THIS -- FOR THE EVERGLADES

 

 

ISSUES?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION.

 

 

A. WELL, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, I HAVE PROVIDED YOU

 

 

WITH SOME GENERAL LANDSATS THAT ARE MORE GENERAL.

 

 

I MAY -- OH, I WAS IN THE PARK FOR PART OF A DAY

 

 

ACTUALLY REVIEWING SOME OF THE PARK'S IMAGERY

 

 

WORK.

 

 

Q. WHEN WAS THAT?

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS EARLY '89, MAYBE, AND

 

 

I ---

 

 

Q. AS A TOURIST?

 

 

A. NO, I WAS INVITED.

 

 

Q. OH.

 

 

A. IT WAS A WORKSHOP.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. AND I'VE SEEN SOME IMAGERY-AIDING ANALYSIS, SOME

 

 

SPECIES OF IT. I BELIEVE THE DISTRICT EVEN SENT

 

 

ME ONE ONE TIME, OR I SAW PART OF IT.

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 532

 

 

 

 

 

 

A. SO IFVE SEEN VARIOUS PIECES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I GUESS

 

 

WE'LL REVISIT THIS AFTER MR. BURGESS ALLOWS

 

 

US TO IN THE MORNING, OR DOESN'T ALLOW US TO,

 

 

OR WHATEVER.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) GOING BACK TO RICHARDSON NUMBER

 

 

EIGHT, THE LSU WETLAND SOILS GROUP DID NOT WORK

 

 

WITH YOU, OR DID WORK WITH YOU? YOU SAID THEY HAD

 

 

AGREED TO, BUT I THINK YOU SAID THEY DIDN'T. is

 

 

THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. THEY HAD AGREED TO WORK WITH US. I BELIEVE I

 

 

TALKED TO DR. RON DELON ON THAT. BUT IN THE END,

 

 

WE SIMPLY DIDN'T WORK WITH HIM.

 

 

Q. WHY NOT?

 

 

A. WE BASICALLY -- I HIRED DR. CRAFT, AND HE HAD SOME

 

 

OF THOSE SKILLS. ALSO WE DECIDED THAT IT WAS JUST

 

 

TOO DIFFICULT. THEIR LABORATORY WAS OVERLOADED

 

 

WITH SAMPLES. IT'D BE MORE APPROPRIATE IF WE

 

 

ACTUALLY DID THEM IN-HOUSE, AND SO WE JUST DIDN'T

 

 

WORK WITH THEM.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT RONNIE BEST WORKING ON CERTAIN

 

 

ASPECTS OF THE CATTAIL WORK? DID THAT COME TO

 

 

PASS?

 

 

A. NO, IT DID NOT COME TO PASS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 533

 

 

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU WORKED WITH MR. BEST SUBSEQUENTLY ON

 

 

THOSE ISSUES?

 

 

A. RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

Q. YES.

 

 

A. YES, RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. NO, I HAVE NOT WORKED WITH RONNIE BEST ON CATTAIL

 

 

WORK.

 

 

Q. WAS THE CESIUM ONE -- WAS THE CESIUM EQUIPMENT

 

 

VERY EXPENSIVE -- THE EQUIPMENT TO DO THAT

 

 

ANALYSIS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I OBJECT TO THE FORM

 

 

OF THE QUESTION.

 

 

A. WAS IT VERY EXPENSIVE? IT'S---

 

 

Q. YEAH. WAS IT EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT? WHAT DID IT

 

 

COST? DO YOU RECALL?

 

 

A. WE GOT A PRETTY GOOD DEAL ON IT. WE GOT A

 

 

UNIVERSITY DEMONSTRATION FOR THAT PIECE OF

 

 

EQUIPMENT -- DISCOUNT, SO I DON'T REMEMBER. IT'S

 

 

THIRTY THOUSAND ($30,000.00). I THINK THE, YOU

 

 

KNOW, LIST PRICE IS, LIKE, SIXTY-FIVE

 

 

($65,000.00), BUT WE GOT A GOOD PRICE ON IT.

 

 

Q. IS THAT SO OTHER UNIVERSITIES CAN COME AND SEE

 

 

WHAT YOU'RE DOING OR---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 534

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. WE WOULD TRAIN STUDENTS, AND THEY WOULD GO OUT AND

 

 

BUY THE SAME PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. LET'S RETURN TO RICHARDSON NUMBER 9. THIS

 

 

IS THE EPD BOARD MEETING AT WHICH YOU AND, IT

 

 

APPEARS, MR. MacVICAR WERE BOTH IN ATTENDANCE. I

 

 

HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ON THAT DOCUMENT, AND

 

 

THEN WE'LL GO TO YOUR PROPOSAL. IT SAYS THAT ALL

 

 

THE MEETINGS ARE TAPE RECORDED. IS THAT YOUR --

 

 

IS THAT YOUR -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE TAPE

 

 

RECORDED?

 

 

A. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.

 

 

Q. MAYBE WE NEED TO DO A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST.

 

 

EVIDENTLY, YOU DID A PRESENTATION AT THIS MEETING.

 

 

IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND DID YOU PRESENT YOUR PROPOSAL, TO THE

 

 

BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE I DID.

 

 

Q. SO THIS PROBABLY WAS THE MEETING THAT MR. MacVICAR

 

 

WOULD HAVE MADE HIS COMMENTS, DON'T YOU THINK?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECTION. ASKED AND

 

 

ANSWERED.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 535

 

 

A. SO, DO I ANSWER?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I MEAN---

 

 

A. I THINK SO. I'M NOT -- I JUST ---

 

 

Q. --- YOU THINK SO. MAYBE IT JUST ---

 

 

A. --- I JUST DON'T WANT TO---

 

 

Q. I KNOW, I KNOW. I'M NOT -- MY ONLY POINT IS -- IS

 

 

THAT WERE -- DID -- YOU DIDN'T GO TO THESE

 

 

MONTHLY, DID YOU, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I WENT TO SEVERAL, BUT I DIDN'T -- I MAY GO THREE,

 

 

FOUR MONTHS BEFORE I WOULD GO TO ANOTHER ONE.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. BUT I MAY HAVE GONE TO SEVERAL BACK-TO-BACK,

 

 

AND---

 

 

Q. RIGHT, RIGHT.

 

 

A. ---THAT'S THE ONLY REASON I HESITATE. I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER IF, AFTER -- BECAUSE THIS IS A LONG TIME

 

 

AGO -- IF, AFTER---

 

 

Q. RIGHT, I KNOW.

 

 

A. --- PRESENTING THIS ONE, THEY CALLED ME BACK THE

 

 

NEXT MONTH. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER.

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. BUT THIS IS THE LOGICAL---

 

 

Q. TIME THAT HE WOULD HAVE MADE THESE COMMENTS. AND

 

 

THIS IS THE PROPOSAL, THE SEVEN HUNDRED AND

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 536

 

 

 

 

THIRTY-TWO THOUSAND, SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIVE

 

 

($732,705.00).

 

 

A. THAT IS CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU WORKING WITH RONNIE

 

 

BEST IN ANY CAPACITY IN THE EVERGLADES, NOW?

 

 

A. NO, I AM NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU IN THE PAST?

 

 

A. WE PROPOSED SOME JOINT STUDIES.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. TO THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE OR THE EPD OR

 

 

WHAT?

 

 

A. NO. I -- WE PROPOSED TO WORK TOGETHER ON THIS

 

 

PARTICULAR PROJECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY, OKAY. I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT YOUR PROPOSAL FOR

 

 

JUST A SECOND. DID YOU AMEND THIS PROPOSAL TO

 

 

REFLECT THE CHANGES THAT YOU MADE AS A RESULT OF

 

 

MR. MacVICARIS COMMENTS?

 

 

A. DID I CHANGE THIS PROPOSAL?

 

 

Q. DID YOU AMEND IT AND---

 

 

A. AMEND IT?

 

 

Q. --- RESUBMIT IT?

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE WE MAY WE MAY HAVE ADDED AN

 

 

ADDENDUM -- THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION -- TO THIS. I

 

 

CAN'T REMEMBER. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION. WE HAD

 

 

AN ADDENDUM.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 537

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. I COULD BE WRONG ON THAT, BUT I---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I BELIEVE AFTER THAT WE DID HAVE AN ADDENDUM---

 

 

Q. SURE, SURE.

 

 

A. --- BECAUSE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WERE RAISED.

 

 

Q. OKAY. I HAVE AN ADDENDUM. IT'S A 1990 ADDENDUM,

 

 

IN SEPTEMBER 1990. DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE

 

 

WHAT YOUFRE REFERRING TO?

 

 

A. I COULD LOOK AT IT AND ---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- MAYBE GIVE YOU SOME ---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT IS THIS EXPERT

 

 

DOCUMENT?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY

THIS DOCUMENT?

A. YES. IT LOOKS LIKE AN ADDENDUM TO THE PROPOSAL TO

 

 

THE EPD.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S CALL THIS

 

 

RICHARDSON NUMBER 13, IS IT?

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 538

 

 

 

 

COURT REPORTER: (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WE'LL LET HER MARK IT,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

WITNESS: I'M SORRY. IT WAS -- I'M

FALLING BEHIND HERE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 13 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

MR. REID: I'M SORRY, WOULD YOU DESCRIBE

 

 

IT AGAIN?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT IS "EFFECTS OF NITROGEN

 

 

AND PHOSPHORUS ON SAWGRASS, SAWGRASS-CATTAIL

 

 

AND SLOUGH COMMUNITIES (ADDENDUM ONE, TO THE

 

 

PROPOSAL TO THE EVERGLADES AGRICULTURAL AREA,

 

 

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT)

 

 

SEPTEMBER 14, 1990.

 

 

WITNESS: OKAY.

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DOES THIS ADDENDUM INCLUDE AN

AMENDMENT, AS REFLECTED IN THE COMMENTS FROM

 

 

MR. MacVICAR?

 

 

A. I THINK THIS DOCUMENT IS A COLLECTION OF -- YOU

 

 

SAY COMMENTS -- DOES IT -- OH, EXCUSE ME. DOES IT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 539

 

 

 

 

REFLECT COMMENTS DIRECTLY?

 

 

Q. NO. DOES IT REFLECT A CHANGING OF THE DOMINANT

 

 

GOALS OF THE RESEARCH, WHICH HAD BEEN REFLECTED

 

 

IN THE OBJECTIVES IN THE RICHARDSON EXHIBIT

 

 

NUMBER 10?

 

 

A. RIGHT. THE OBJECTIVES ARE STILL THE SAME. THE

 

 

APPROACHES HAVE ALTERED SLIGHTLY. AND, AS I

 

 

MENTIONED BEFORE, IN THE ORIGINAL PROPOSAL,

 

 

OBJECTIVE 3, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS TO ANALYZE THE

 

 

EFFECTIVENESS OF THE HOLEYLAND AS A NUTRIENT

 

 

SINK---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- AND THAT WAS -- WE WERE ASKED BY MacVICAR,

 

 

IN NOT SO MANY WORDS, TO REMOVE THE HOLEYLAND

 

 

FROM CONSIDERATION. WE DID. AND, AT THAT TIME

 

 

I THINK THERE ARE SOME LETTERS IN THE FILE -- I

 

 

ACTUALLY MET, I THINK, WITH WOODY WODRASKA AND

WITH MacVICAR AND SAID THAT I WANTED TO COOPERATE

 

 

AND WORK WITH THEM AND TRY TO WORK OUT A

 

 

REASONABLE WORKING RELATIONSHIP, WHICH I THOUGHT

 

 

WE WERE ON THE ROAD TO DOING. SO---

 

 

Q. RIGHT. DID THAT REASONABLE WORKING RELATIONSHIP

 

 

EVOLVE, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. NOT TO THE DEGREE THAT I THOUGHT IT WOULD, BUT I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 540

 

 

THINK THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE LEGAL -- ALL THE

 

 

LEGAL ENTANGLEMENTS THAT GOT INVOLVED. AND I

 

 

DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS PARTICULARLY AS A RESULT

 

 

OF ANYTHING THE INDIVIDUAL SCIENTISTS IN THE

 

 

DISTRICT WERE DOING. I THINK IT WAS JUST A RESULT

 

 

OF ALL THE MACHINATIONS REGARDING THE LEGAL

 

 

HASSLES.

 

 

Q. DID YOU EVER MEET WITH MR. ROGERS -- SKADDEN,

 

 

ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER AND FLOM?

 

 

A. MR. ROGERS?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

A. NO, I'VE NOT BEEN IN MR. ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD, AS

 

 

FAR AS -- IS THAT AN ATTORNEY?

 

 

Q. YES.

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. YOU NEVER MET WITH ---

 

 

A. I DON'T -- MY KNOWLEDGE.

 

 

Q. --- THE ATTORNEYS FOR THE WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

DISTRICT?

 

 

A. NO. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, I DID NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 541

MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD.

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. WELL, I GUESS MY

 

 

QUESTION TO YOU IS, DO YOU CONTINUE TO HAVE A GOOD

 

 

WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

DISTRICT OR DO YOU FEEL THAT THERE'S BEEN SOME

 

 

DISTANCING?

 

 

A. YEAH, I THINK DISTANCING MIGHT BE AN APPROPRIATE

 

 

WORD.

 

 

Q. WHEN DID THAT DISTANCING OCCUR, TO THE BEST OF

 

 

YOUR RECOLLECTION?

 

 

A. I THINK WHEN THE SUITS AND THE COUNTERSUITS

 

 

BEGAN TO BE FILED, THERE WERE SOME PROBLEMS

 

 

RELATED TO THAT. AND, ALSO, I THINK EARLY ON

 

 

THERE WAS SOME -- POSSIBLY SOME OF MY EARLY

 

 

PRESENTATIONS THAT BASICALLY -- BASICALLY MAY

 

 

HAVE STEPPED ON THE TOES OF SOME OF THE DISTRICT'S

 

 

POSITIONS THAT SAID THAT SOME DATA WAS MAYBE NOT

 

 

APPROPRIATE, OR WAS, IN MY OPINION AT LEAST, NOT

 

 

APPROPRIATELY UTILIZED. SO, I'M SURE THAT HAD

 

 

SOME FACTORS. AND SO I'M SURE THERE'S A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 542

 

 

 

 

COMBINATION OF AREAS THAT RELATED TO THAT.

 

 

BUT WITH THE DISTRICT, IN THEIR DEFENSE, THE

 

 

PEOPLE HAVE PROVIDED US ACCESS TO THOSE AREAS,

 

 

AND CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN QUITE

 

 

COOPERATIVE.

 

 

Q. WHICH INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN QUITE COOPERATIVE?

 

 

A. WELL, INITIALLY, STEVE DAVIS TOOK US AROUND

 

 

AND GAVE US SOME INSIGHT.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

A. GARTH REDFIELD HAS BEEN -- AND SUE NEWMAN HAVE

 

 

BEEN HELPFUL AND REASONABLY COOPERATIVE ON NUMBERS

 

 

OF THINGS. IN TERMS OF FIELD SCIENTISTS, THE ONLY

 

 

FIELD SCIENTIST WHO HAD -- WHO I'VE HAD MUCH

 

 

CONTACT WITH WAS ORIGINALLY STEVE DAVIS, AND

 

 

THEN A LITTLE BIT ON MARGARITE KOCH, WHO HAS

 

 

GONE FROM HOT TO COLD, TO COLD TO HOT TO -- IN

 

 

TERMS OF HER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S GOING ON,

 

 

WHAT'S BEING DONE. SO I -- YOU KNOW, WE HAVE AT

 

 

LEAST, I THINK, A PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP AT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 543

 

 

 

 

THIS MOMENT. I WOULD SAY THAT. AT LEAST, IT'S

 

 

CORDIAL. SO, THERE -- YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN

 

 

SOME OF THIS. I'VE BEEN INVITED, FOR EXAMPLE, TO

 

 

SIT IN ON THE ENR REVIEW BOARD, THAT REVIEW

 

 

WORKSHOP. SO I WAS INVITED TO DO THAT. I WAS

 

 

INVITED BY GARTli REDFIELD TO PARTICIPATE IN A

 

 

WORKSHOP AT CORNELL. AND SO WE HAVE HAD -- WE'VE

 

 

HAD SOME PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS, YOU KNOW,

 

 

THAT CONTINUE.

 

 

Q. ARE THERE ANY SCIENTISTS WHO REFUSE TO COOPERATE

 

 

WITH YOU AT THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT?

 

 

A. NOT AT THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, THAT I CAN

 

 

THINK OF. NO. WE'VE HAD SOME DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT

 

 

MAYBE INTERPRETATION OR SOMETHING, BUT THEY'VE

 

 

NOT---

 

 

Q. SURE, SURE.

 

 

A. --- THEY'VE NOT DISAGREED OR THEY'VE NOT, NOT

 

 

WORKED WITH ME.

 

 

Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAS ANYONE DONE AN ANALYSIS OF

 

 

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE HOLEYLAND AS A NUTRIENT

 

 

SINK?

A. I BELIEVE THE DISTRICT TOOK THIS -- SOME OF THESE

 

 

IDEAS IN HERE AND HAS SINCE CO-FUNDED SOME SIMILAR

 

 

TYPES OF WORK. THE HOLEYLAND WORK, I THINK, HAS

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 544

 

 

 

 

 

 

BEEN DONE BY DR. REDDY, THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA,

 

 

I BELIEVE, AT LEAST TO SOME ASPECTS OF IT.

 

 

Q. I WOULD LIKE TO REFER YOU TO PAGE 28 OF RICHARDSON

 

 

NUMBER 10, YOUR PROPOSAL IN 1990.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: NO, THAT'S NOT --

 

 

THAT'S 13.

 

 

WITNESS: THAT'S 13.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THAT'S IT.

 

 

WITNESS: OKAY. WHAT PAGE -- I'M

 

 

SORRY -- 28?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: PAGE 28, RIGHT.

 

 

WITNESS: OKAY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU HAVE, UNDER NUMBER 6, AN

 

 

ECOSYSTEM ESTIMATE OF 0.56 GRAMS PER METER SQUARED

 

 

PER YEAR FROM YOUR CESIUM STUDY. IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

AM I READING IT RIGHT?

 

 

A. MY ECOSYSTEM ESTIMATE?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. YEAH, IT APPEARS TO BE SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

 

 

Q. IS THAT A NUMBER THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY ADJUSTED

 

 

DOWNWARD TO 0.46? IS THAT THE SAME NUMBER?

 

 

A. THAT -- THIS WAS A DIFFERENT -- THIS IS A

 

 

PRELIMINARY ESTIMATE, AND IT WAS A DIFFERENT

 

 

APPROACH.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 545

 

 

 

 

Q. UH-HUH, UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. I WAS BASICALLY USING A -- ONE APPROACH TO LOOK AT

 

 

THIS, I THINK, THREE YEARS AGO.

 

 

Q. AND THE DIFFERENCE IN THE APPROACH WAS WHAT?

 

 

A. WELL, THIS APPROACH IS SIMPLY LOOKING AT THE

 

 

LOADING END AND LOOKING AT THE AREA THAT WAS

 

 

ESTIMATED TO BE -- AND THAT WAS SORT OF A

 

 

PRELIMINARY ESTIMATE OF THE AREA -- AND

 

 

ESSENTIALLY MAKING SOME -- I THINK I HAD SOME

 

 

DISCLAIMERS IN THE FRONT OF THIS, SIMPLY SAYING

 

 

THAT THIS WAS A -- THIS WAS ACTUALLY A SECOND LINE

 

 

OF EVIDENCE. IT SIMPLY SAID THAT, IF YOU ASSUMED

 

 

DISTRIBUTION OF THIS MATERIAL UNIFORMLY, WHICH IT

 

 

WOULD NOT BE, AS WE NOW KNOW, BUT IT WOULD GIVE

 

 

YOU A REASONABLE PROXIMATION THAT YOU WOULD HAVE

 

 

SOME IDEA , IF WE WERE IN THE BALLPARK, OF WHAT THE

 

 

STORAGE RATE WOULD BE PER UNIT AREA PER YEAR,

 

 

WHICH IS 0.56, AND IT'S DEFINITELY IN THE

 

 

BALLPARK; RELATES TO OUR HIGHEST NUMBER, I

 

 

BELIEVE, WHICH WAS 0.6 AT THAT TIME FROM OUR

 

 

CESIUM STUDY. SO, IT'S WITHIN THE BALLPARK.

Q. HAS THE 0.56, THEN, BEEN REVISED?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. AND IT'S NOW?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 546

 

 

 

 

A. POINT FOUR -- SOMETHING 44, I BELIEVE. IT MAY

 

 

BE 0.46. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER,

 

 

BUT---

 

 

Q. WELL, NOW, THE 0.46, DOES THAT INVOLVE YOUR

 

 

DISTANCE WEIGHTING TO ARRIVE AT THAT NUMBER?

 

 

A. YOU WOULD HAVE TO SHOW ME SPECIFICALLY WHERE

 

 

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH 46. AND WHERE ARE YOU

 

 

NOW? I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU'RE GETTING THE 46

 

 

FROM.

 

 

Q. WELL, I JUST ASKED YOU, HAD THAT NUMBER NOW

 

 

BECOME -- HAD THE 56 NUMBER BEEN ADJUSTED

 

 

DOWNWARD, AND YOU SAID, YES, IT HAD BEEN ADJUSTED

 

 

DOWN TO THE 0.46. AND I WAS JUST ASKING YOU THAT

 

 

IT WAS PART---

 

 

A. OR 0.44. I'M---

 

 

Q. --- OR 0.44, OR WHATEVER. IS THE 0.44 WHAT

 

 

DR. DAVIS PRESENTS IN HIS PAPER -- HIS EXPLANATION

 

 

OF YOUR---

 

 

A. DR. DAVIS DOES NOT PRESENT NO AN EXPLANATION

 

 

FOR THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY, OKAY. ALL RIGHT. BUT, WHEN YOU ARRIVE AT

 

 

YOUR 0.46, IS TIIAT USING YOUR DISTANCE WEIGHTING

 

 

ON THE GRADIENT?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT DISTANCE WEIGHTING YOU'RE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 547

 

 

 

 

REFERRING TO.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?

 

 

A. NOT MY DISTANCE WEIGHTING, I DON'T. I---

 

 

Q. WELL, DR. CRAFT? DR. QUALLS, I GUESS IT IS.

 

 

DR. QUALLS IS THE ONE WHO DID THAT?

 

 

A. I DID NOT -- DR. QUALLS DID -- IN HIS SECTION ON

 

 

WATER QUALITY, HE DID SOME DISTANCE WEIGHTING.

 

 

I DID NOT UTILIZE THAT DISTANCE WEIGHTING IN

 

 

MINE.

 

 

Q. TO ARRIVE AT THE 0.46?

 

 

A. NO, I DID NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET ME TURN YOU -- REFER YOU TO

 

 

PAGE 36, AND I THINK WE CAN FINISH FOR TODAY.

 

 

EXPERIMENT 2 TALKS ABOUT TRANSPLANTING SAWGRASS

 

 

AND CATTAIL TO PLOTS OF BELLE GLADE. DID THAT

 

 

EVER OCCUR?

 

 

A. IT DID NOT.

 

 

Q. NOR DID THE FIRE REGIME PLOTS OCCUR?

 

 

A. IT DID NOT.

 

 

Q. NOR THE BIOMASS AND SPECIES COMPOSITION?

 

 

A. THEY ARE UNDER 3, OR IN YOUR -- WERE YOU UNDER

 

 

THE 3?

 

 

Q. UNDER 3, YES, SIR.

 

 

A. WELL, THIS, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, WAS A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 548

 

 

 

 

HYDROPERIOD NUTRIENTS FIRE INTERACTION STUDY.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THE DISCUSSION WAS, THIS WAS TOO COMPLEX

 

 

TO DO EARLY ON; THAT IT SHOULD BE LOOKED AT IN

 

 

PIECES. AND, AS YOU MAY REMEMBER, IN '89-190, WE

 

 

WERE IN A SEVERE DROUGHT. AND TO PROPOSE SETTING

 

 

PARTS OF THE EVERGLADES ON FIRE WITH NO WATER FOR

 

 

TWO YEARS WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO CONTROL. AND

 

 

SO WE HAD TO COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE PLAN ON

THAT. WE DID MEASURE SOME SPECIES COMPOSITION ON

 

 

THE FIRE PLOT WE TALKED ABOUT, BUT IT WAS NOT AN

 

 

EXPERIMENT. THAT'S THE ONE I WAS TELLING YOU

 

 

ABOUT EARLIER.

 

 

Q. IN THE FERTILIZER STUDY IN 2B?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. I THOUGHT YOU SAID -- OH, OH, IT WAS -- I'M SORRY.

 

 

IT WAS A LONGER GRADIENT STUDY THAT---

 

 

A. THE GRADIENT STUDY WHERE---

 

 

Q. --- THAT PORTIONS OF IT BURNED.

 

 

A. ---WHERE THERE WAS A PIECE OF IT BURNED ONE

 

 

EDGE.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. BUT THIS EXPERIMENT, WHICH I STILL THINK NEEDS TO

 

 

BE DONE, HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 549

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT, ACTUALLY, WHAT YOU WERE LEFT WITH WAS

 

 

EVEN A LESS DESIRABLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE, BECAUSE

 

 

YOU SAID IT WAS TOO COMPLICATED TO SET UP A

 

 

CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT AND FIRE AND YOU WERE LEFT

 

 

WITH A TOTALLY UNCONTROLLED EXPERIMENT AND WITH

 

 

IN FIRE TO---

 

 

A. WELL---

 

 

Q. --- DRAW DATA FROM?

 

 

A. IT CAN BE UTILIZED FOR SOME MANAGEMENT PURPOSES.

 

 

AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, YOU CAN USE SOME DATA

 

 

LIKE THAT AS INFERENCES.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO ESSENTIALLY DO PARTS OF THIS

 

 

EXPERIMENT.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. ISN'T THAT REALLY OBSERVATIONAL DATA,

 

 

THOUGH, DR. RICHARDSON, WHERE YOU JUST WRITE DOWN

 

 

WHAT HAPPENED?

 

 

A. NO. WE'RE QUANTIFYING, TO SOME DEGREE, IF YOU

 

 

IT ISN'T---

 

 

Q. YOU HAD NO CONTROLS. I MEAN, IT JUST BURNED BY

 

 

CHANCE?

 

 

A. WELL, WE ARE GOING TO USE SOME AREAS TO COMPARE IT

 

 

TO. BUT THE BEST WAY TO DO THIS WOULD BE TO SET

 

 

UP A CONTROLLED FIRE EXPERIMENT TO---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 55O

 

 

 

 

Q. SO, YOUR FIRE INFORMATION IS UNCONTROLLED? ISN'T

 

 

THAT ACCURATE? YOU DIDN'T SET THE FIRE---

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM.

 

 

Q. --- DID YOU, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I DID NOT START THE FIRE.

 

 

Q. THANK YOU. SO, IT WAS UNCONTROLLED?

 

 

A. IT WAS AN UNCONTROLLED FIRE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THANK YOU. NINE O'CLOCK

 

 

IN THE MORNING?

 

 

WITNESS: FINE.

MS. PONZOLI: THANK YOU.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

 

(THEREUPON, THIS PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON WAS RECESSED AT 5:52 P.M. TO

 

 

BE RESUMED AT 9:00 A.M. ON JANUARY 13, 1993.)

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 551

 

 

 

 

NORTH CAROLINA

 

 

DURHAM COUNTY

 

 

 

 

I, DR. JOHN CURTIS RICHARDSON, HAVE

 

 

READ THE FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT OF MY

 

 

DEPOSITION, VOLUME I, AND DO HEREBY CERTIFY

 

 

THAT THE PRECEDING PAGES 1 THROUGH 550

 

 

CONSTITUTE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPTION

 

 

OF MY TESTIMONY.

 

 

 

 

___________________________

JOHN CURTIS RICHARDSON, Ph.D.

 

 

 

 

 

 

SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED

 

 

BEFORE ME, A NOTARY PUBLIC,

 

 

THIS THE _____ DAY OF_________,

 

 

1993.

 

 

______________________________

NOTARY PUBLIC

 

 

MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PAGE 552

 

 

 

 

 

 

NORTH CAROLINA

 

 

WAKE COUNTY

 

 

C E R T I F I C A T E

 

 

I, PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY PUBLIC, DO HEREBY

 

 

CERTIFY THAT CURTIS RICHARDSON WAS DULY SWORN

 

 

BY ME PRIOR TO THE TAKING OF THE FOREGOING DEPOSITION,

 

 

AND THAT THE FOREGOING --@-50 PAGES CONSTITUTE A TRUE

 

 

AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPTION OF THE TESTIMONY OF THE SAID

 

 

WITNESS.

 

 

I DO FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE PERSONS WERE PRESENT

 

 

AS STATED IN THE CAPTION.

 

 

I DO FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NOT OF COUNSEL FOR,

 

 

OR IN THE EMPLOYMENT OF EITHER OF THE PARTIES TO THIS

 

 

ACTION, NOR AM I INTERESTED IN THE RESULTS OF THIS

 

 

ACTION.

 

 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I HAVE HEREUNTO SUBSCRIBED MY

 

 

NAME, THIS THE 4TH DAY OF FEBRUARY 1992

 

 

 

 

___________________________

PAMELA S. LILES

CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES

2551 ALBEMARLE AVENUE

RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27610

 

 

 

 

 

 

MY COMMISSION EXPIRES

 

 

JUNE 15, 1997