DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 401

 

 

DOCUMENTS TO THE UNIVERSITY. AND WE HAVE A

 

 

FORMALIZED PROCEDURE AT THE UNIVERSITY HOW TO

 

 

CREATE CENTERS. AND SOME TIME DURING THE MID

 

 

'80'S, WE WORKED TOWARDS DEVELOPMENT OF A CENTER,

 

 

AND I FOLLOWED THOSE GUIDELINES AND THE CENTER

 

 

CAME INTO EXISTENCE. I THINK IT WAS FORMALLY

 

 

APPROVED -- IT WAS EITHER LATE 189 OR 190. I

 

 

CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE. IT WAS A CENTER;

 

 

THERE WAS A LETTER FROM THE PROVOST APPROVING IT,

 

 

BUT IT HAD TO GO BEFORE THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF

 

 

THE UNIVERSITY.

 

 

Q. WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES FOR FORMING A CENTER? DO

 

 

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FUNDING IN

 

 

ORDER TO BEGIN A CENTER?

 

 

A. THE FUNDING IS NOT THE MAJOR CRITERIA. YOU HAVE

 

 

TO HAVE A -- THE COLLEGIALITY REQUIREMENTS ARE

 

 

SUCH THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ACADEME WORKING

 

 

GROUP, A FACULTY, CROSS CAMPUSES. THERE'S A

 

 

GUIDEBOOK PROVIDED BY THE UNIVERSITY. YOU HAVE

 

 

TO HAVE A PLAN, AN OBJECTIVE, A SERIES OF GOALS,

AN EDUCATIONAL FORMAT, A RESEARCH FORMAT. YOU

HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THIS WILL PROVIDE THE

 

 

UNIVERSITY A -- IT HAS THE BASIS FOR BECOMING A

 

 

CENTER OF EXCELLENCE. SO, THERE ARE A NUMBER

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 402

 

 

OF ITEM -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE CRITERIA,

BUT THERE IS A FAIRLY LENGTHY PROCEDURE BY

WHICH YOU MOVE FROM STEP "A" TO STEP "B" AND

STEP "C".

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND YOU FILED YOUR FIRST PAPERS FOR THE

 

 

VARIOUS STEPS WHEN?

 

 

A. SOMETIME IN THE MID '80'S, 185, 186, SOMEWHERE IN

 

 

THERE.

 

 

Q. ARE THOSE DOCUMENTS DOCUMENTS THAT, IF I WERE TO

 

 

SEND A SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM WITHOUT DEPOSITION,

 

 

THAT THE UNIVERSITY WOULD ALLOW ME TO OBTAIN?

 

 

A. YOU'D HAVE TO ASK THE UNIVERSITY.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: EXCUSE ME, WOULD YOU

 

 

REPEAT THE FIRST PART OF THAT?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IF I WERE TO ASK FOR THE

 

 

DOCUMENTS ESTABLISHING THE DUKE WETLAND

 

 

CENTER, WOULD THE UNIVERSITY OBJECT TO THE

 

 

PRODUCTION OF THOSE DOCUMENTS?

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: LET ME ASK YOU WHAT

 

 

THE PURPOSE WOULD BE. LIKE ALL INTERNAL

 

 

DOCUMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY, IF THERE'S A,

 

 

YOU KNOW, IF YOU FEEL LIKE THERE'S A VALID

 

 

DISCOVERY---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 403

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: --- FILED, WE WOULDN'T

 

 

OBJECT TO IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: CERTAINLY. I THINK I

 

 

HAVE CORRESPONDENCE INDICATING THERE WERE

 

 

PEOPLE IN FLORIDA WHO FELT THAT THE CENTER

 

 

WAS FORMED REALLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THE

 

 

PARTICULAR INDUSTRY'S RESEARCH. I REALIZE

 

 

FROM OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT IT SERVES MANY

 

 

OTHER PURPOSES TODAY. BUT THAT ITS FORMATION

 

 

CAME DIRECTLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THIS INITIAL

 

 

FUNDING. AND IF THAT'S TRUE, IT'S TRUE; IF

 

 

IT'S NOT TRUE, IT'S NOT TRUE. BUT I HAVE NO

 

 

WAY OF ESTABLISHING THAT WITHOUT THAT

 

 

INFORMATION.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: GO AHEAD AND SUBMIT IT,

 

 

THE SUBPOENA.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. YOU WANT TO THINK

 

 

ABOUT IT, OKAY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. I GUESS THE SIMPLEST

 

 

THING IS JUST SIMPLY TO ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON,

 

 

WAS THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE'S INITIAL GRANT,

 

 

I GUESS, THE SPARK THAT LIT THE FIRE THAT GOT YOU

 

 

TO WHERE YOU COULD HAVE A CENTER?

 

 

A. NO, NOT DIRECTLY. IT WASN'T THE PRIMARY PIECE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 404

 

 

THERE WAS -- THAT MAY BE ONE OF MANY PIECES. BUT

 

 

THE CENTER ACTUALLY, AS I SAID, HAD TO HAVE A

 

 

NUMBER OF CRITERIA. IT HAD TO HAVE FACULTY --

 

 

CRITICAL MASS OF FACULTY WHO AGREED; IT HAD TO

 

 

HAVE SOME GOALS; IT HAD TO HAVE SOME PURPOSE IN

 

 

THE SCHOOL AT THE TIME; AND, ESSENTIALLY, THE

 

 

UNIVERSITY HAD TO COMMIT SOME RESOURCES ITSELF,

 

 

WHICH IT DID, TO ESTABLISHING THIS CENTER. SO,

 

 

THE CENTER WAS ACTUALLY ESTABLISHED BY THE DEAN

 

 

OF THE SCHOOL OF FORESTRY WHO COMMITTED FUNDS TO

 

 

THIS. AND THERE WERE SOME PRIVATE DONORS WHO GAVE

 

 

TO HELP ESTABLISH THIS. THERE'S AN ENDOWMENT FUND

 

 

THAT WAS ESTABLISHED FOR THE CENTER. AND THERE

 

 

ARE SOME STUDENT SCHOLARSHIP FUNDS THAT ARE UNDER

 

 

MY DIRECTION RELATED TO THE CENTER THAT, AGAIN,

 

 

CAME FROM VARIOUS SOURCES.

 

 

SO, THAT -- THAT ALL HAD TO BE PUT IN PLACE.

 

 

IT HAPPENED ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS THE RESEARCH

 

 

PROJECT TOOK PLACE, SO IT WAS SORT OF A NORMAL

 

 

MELDING OF THIS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IN THE DESCRIPTION OF THE DUKE UNIVERSITY

 

 

WETLAND CENTER, YOU LIST -- IS THIS THE INITIAL

 

 

ONE? IS THIS -- THIS TYPEWRITTEN VERSION---

 

 

A. NO. I BELIEVE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 405

 

 

Q. --- THAT'S RICHARDSON---

 

 

A. --- THERE ARE SEVERAL EARLIER DRAFTS. IN FACT, AS

 

 

I MENTIONEDI IN THE MID '80'S, WE HAD TO PRODUCE

 

 

SOME EARLY DOCUMENTS THAT WOULD BE WHAT THE

 

 

CENTER -- WOULD BE -- ORIGINALLY, IT WAS CALLED

 

 

WETLANDS ECOLOGY AND COASTAL SOMETHING CENTER, AND

 

 

THEN WENT THROUGH SEVERAL ITERATIONS.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN THIS ONE WAS WRITTEN?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. IT WAS OBVIOUSLY AFTER THE

 

 

ONE IN THE MID '80'S, SO IT WAS PROBABLY 189,

 

 

MAYBE 188.

 

 

Q. MAY I RETRIEVE RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE FROM YOU.

 

 

IT'S THE ONLY COPY I HAVE. I BELIEVE THAT -- JUST

 

 

A CURSORY GLANCE -- THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR

 

 

AND RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE ARE VERY, VERY SIMILAR.

 

 

IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I THINK THEY'RE FAIRLY CLOSE. I---

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT I CAN REALLY

 

 

SEE OF SUBSTANCE IS, IS THE SELECTED RESEARCH

 

 

PROJECTS CONDUCTED AT DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND

 

 

CENTER, AND THEN THERE'S A LIST OF PROJECTS. AND

 

 

THEN -- I GUESS I'D JUST LIKE TO ASK YOU. THAT

 

 

DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE IN RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE,

 

 

DOES IT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 406

 

 

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SOME OF IT DOES, YES. BUT THE PROBLEM

 

 

IS THE COST OF PRINTING---

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. --- IS QUITE HIGH---

 

 

Q. I CAN IMAGINE.

 

 

A. ---AND THAT BROCHURE WAS NOT CHEAP.

 

 

Q. IT'S A VERY HANDSOME BROCHURE.

 

 

A. I TOOK SOME OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS MYSELF.

 

 

Q. DID YOU TAKE THE ONE ON THE FRONT, OF THE

 

 

EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. SUNSET IN THE FLORIDA EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. NO, THAT WAS -- THAT WAS ACTUALLY A COMMERCIAL

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHER WHO DID THAT.

 

 

Q. CATTAILS OR SAWGRASS?

 

 

A. OH, IT'S HARD TO TELL IN THE SUNSET.

 

 

Q. THE LIGHTING IS NOT GOOD, HUH? ALL RIGHT. WHERE

 

 

ARE THE RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT ARE LISTED?

 

 

A. IF YOU'D OPEN TO THE INSIDE AND LOOK AROUND THE

 

 

BORDER---

 

 

Q. THE INSIDE SEEMS TO BE A LANDSAT.

 

 

A. NO, IF YOU'D LOOK AT THE BORDER---

 

 

Q. OHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

 

 

A. --- WHICH NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER DISCOVERED EITHER.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 407

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

A. IT WAS MY IDEA TO PLACE THOSE ON THE BORDER, WHICH

 

 

ACCORDING TO THE PERSON WHO DOES THE LAYOUT, WHO'S

 

 

A PROFESSIONAL IN THE SCHOOL, IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.

 

 

BUT THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE I COULD FIT IT IN, AND

 

 

IT TURNED OUT TO BE NOT A GOOD IDEA. AND NO ONE

 

 

HAS DISCOVERED THIS.

 

 

Q. MORE EMPIRICAL DATA RIGHT HERE. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

THERE'S JUST A COUPLE OF PROJECTS. I DON'T KNOW

 

 

IF THEY'RE LISTED, AND MAYBE YOU CAN POINT ME TO

 

 

THEM.

 

 

A. I'M NOT ---

 

 

Q. YOU HAVE ---

 

 

A. EXCUSE ME.

 

 

Q. GO AHEAD. NO, GO AHEAD.

 

 

A. NO. YOU ASK YOUR QUESTION.

 

 

Q. YOU'RE NOT SURE, WHAT?

 

 

A. NOPE, GO AHEAD. FINISH YOUR QUESTION.

 

 

Q. TWO PROJECTS -- "ECOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE

 

 

EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS AND HYDROPERIOD ON CATTAIL

 

 

REGENERATION AND NUTRIENT RETENTION IN THE WATER

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 408

 

 

 

 

CONSERVATION AREAS OF SOUTH FLORIDA." DID YOU

 

 

PRINT THAT AROUND THE BORDER?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. THE -- LISA PHELPS, MY ASSISTANT,

 

 

JUDICIOUSLY WENT THROUGH, BY SPACE, AND JUST

 

 

KNOCKED OUT SOME THAT DIDN'T FIT. THERE WAS NO --

 

 

I TOLD HER -- I SAID, JUST MAKE THEM FIT. AND SHE

 

 

JUST -- SHE SAID, "I CAN'T FIT THEM ALL," AND I

 

 

SAID, "FIT WHAT YOU CAN FIT."

 

 

Q. AND SINCE NO ONE EVER READ THEM, IT DIDN'T MATTER

 

 

ANYWAY.

 

 

A. WELL, I THOUGHT THEY WOULD, BUT APPARENTLY THEY

 

 

DIDN'T; BECAUSE WE GET REQUESTS, "THANKS FOR THE

 

 

BROCHURE, BUT WHAT TYPES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS HAVE

 

 

YOU EVER DONE?"

 

 

Q. AND YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM LOOK AROUND THE BORDER

 

 

OF NORTH CAROLINA. AND THEN "THE NUTRIENT AND

 

 

CONTAMINANT TRANSPORT IN SATURATED AND UNSATURATED

 

 

SOILS." IS THAT ALSO REFERRING TO YOUR EVERGLADES

 

 

WORK?

 

 

I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE; WHERE ARE YOU NOW?

 

 

Q. THE SECOND -- ON PAGE NUMBER 7.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. THAT MAY REFER MORE TO THE TVA PROJECT THAT WE

 

 

HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH. AND THAT ALSO COULD

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 409

 

 

 

 

BE -- I -- THAT MAY BE A GENERIC TITLE. I CANFT

 

 

REMEMBER. I ASKED INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATORS --

 

 

THESE ARE NOT ALL MY INDIVIDUAL TITLES. YOU HAVE

 

 

TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I DID WAS I WENT TO

 

 

INDIVIDUALS IN MY GROUP IN THE CENTER AND ASKED

 

 

THEM FOR VARIOUS TITLES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT

 

 

THEY WERE DOING CURRENTLY OR -- AND SO. BUT THAT

 

 

ONE, I THINK, IS MINE, RELATED PROBABLY TO TVA, OR

 

 

MAYBE THE NORTH CAROLINA STUDY.

 

 

Q. SURE. ALL RIGHT. ON RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR,

 

 

YOU HAVE A FACULTY LISTED. THESE ARE PEOPLE

 

 

WHO EITHER ARE DOING RESEARCH ASSOCIATED WITH

 

 

THE CENTER, OR WHAT? HOW ARE THESE FACULTY

 

 

LISTED?

 

 

A. THESE ARE FACULTY WHO HAVE AGREED, BY UNIVERSITY

 

 

POLICY, TO BE LISTED HERE AND IN THE BULLETINS; TO

 

 

PARTICIPATE; TO WORK WITH STUDENTS ON WETLANDS

 

 

ISSUES; TO HELP WRITE GRANTS; TO SERVE ON

 

 

COMMITTEES; TO TEACH COURSES; ETCETERA.

 

 

Q. SO, WOULD THEY BELONG -- SO, I SEE THEY DO BELONG

 

 

TO VARIOUS OTHER DEPARTMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY,

 

 

BUT THEN THEY JUST SORT OF JOIN TOGETHER IN THIS

 

 

CENTER CONCEPT ---

 

 

A. THAT'S THE WAY ---

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 410

 

 

Q. --- TO SUPERVISE GRADUATE STUDENTS, AND PERFORM

 

 

OTHER TASKS.

 

 

A. --- THAT IS THE WAY MOST CENTERS FUNCTION IN MOST

 

 

UNIVERSITIES. WELL, THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WE SEE THAT DR. RECKHOW IS LISTED AS

 

 

PART OF YOUR FACULTY.

 

 

A. THAT IS CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S REALLY ALL I HAVE

 

 

ON THAT. I'D LIKE TO---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, I'D LIKE TO HAND

 

 

YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT AND ASK IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY

 

 

THAT.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. IT'S A -- THE FIRST ONE HERE IS A LETTER TO IN

 

 

FACT, IT LOOKS LIKE SEVERAL LETTERS TO NAT REED.

 

 

DID I ANSWER THAT FOR YOU?

 

 

Q. DO YOU IDENTIFY THESE AS YOUR DOCUMENTS---

 

 

A. YES, THESE ARE---

 

 

Q. --- IT'S A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 411

 

 

 

 

A. --- THESE ARE LETTERS -- A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT. I

 

 

BELIEVE, AS I SAID, THESE ARE LETTERS THAT --

 

 

CORRESPONDENCE THAT I SENT. ONE OF THEM, I DIDN'T

 

 

SIGN, BUT I THINK I DICTATED TO LISA---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- THAT I SENT TO NAT REED.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MAKE THIS

 

 

COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: CAN I JUST GET SOME

 

 

CLARIFICATION FOR THE RECORD? WHEN YOU

 

 

REFER TO COMPOSITE EXHIBIT, IS THAT THE

 

 

MANNER THAT HE'S PRODUCED IT TO YOU, OR

 

 

IS THAT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU'RE SHOWING

 

 

IT TO HIM?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: NO, THAT'S THE MANNER IN

 

 

WHICH IT WAS PRODUCED TO ME. AND DUE TO THE

 

 

RATHER TIGHT TIME CONSTRAINTS OF RECEIVING

 

 

THE DOCUMENTS AND COMING UP HERE, I HAVE NOT

 

 

REALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO PULL OUT OF A

 

 

LOT OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS THE SINGLE

 

 

ONE OR TWO DOCUMENTS THAT I WISH TO DEAL

 

 

WITH. BECAUSE BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO ME,

 

 

THEY WERE ALREADY STAPLED TOGETHER. AND

 

 

SORT OF UNSTAPLING THEM AND REASSEMBLING

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 412

 

 

 

 

THEM WAS A TASK THAT TIME WOULD NOT ALLOW.

 

 

SO, IN MANY OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS---

 

 

WITNESS: WELL, ON THE FRONT PAGE,

 

 

YOU'RE---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN

 

 

A SINGLE, OR MAYBE TWO DOCUMENTS, BUT THEY

 

 

WERE ALREADY PUT TOGETHER. SO, THAT'S ALL I

 

 

CAN -- THAT'S ALL I COULD DO WITH IT.

 

 

LET'S MARK THIS COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER

 

 

SIX.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 6 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU, IT APPEARS

 

 

THAT YOU INVITED MR. REED TO SERVE ON SOME KIND OF

 

 

A COUNCIL FOR THE WETLAND CENTER. CAN YOU TELL ME

 

 

WHAT THAT WAS?

 

 

A. YES. WE -- THE WETLAND CENTER WAS DEVELOPING A

 

 

COUNCIL. AS PART OF THE MISSION, AS I MENTIONED

 

 

TO YOU, THE UNIVERSITY REQUIRED THAT WE HAVE

 

 

CERTAIN GOALS AND MISSIONS. AND ONE OF THE

 

 

ASPECTS OF THAT WOULD BE TO -- THAT WE MENTIONED

 

 

WAS, IN FACT, BECOME INVOLVED WITH ENVIRONMENTAL

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 413

 

 

 

 

WETLAND ISSUES AROUND THE COUNTRY. AND TO HELP US

 

 

IN OVERSEEING AND SELECTING PROJECTS AND DOING

 

 

THINGS, WE WERE TO ESTABLISH A COUNCIL. AND SO WE

 

 

STARTED THAT PROCESS IN 1990.

 

 

Q. DID YOU, IN FACT, FORM A COUNCIL?

 

 

A. NO, WE HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE FORMATION OF A

 

 

COUNCIL, AS A MATTER OF FACT.

 

 

Q. IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON?

 

 

A. WELL, SEVERAL. ONE, WE DID HAVE A NUMBER OF

 

 

INDIVIDUALS FROM BOTH PRIVATE SECTOR, AND

 

 

GOVERNMENT, AND INDUSTRY LINED UP; HOWEVER, OUR

 

 

ADMINISTRATION CHANGED IN THE SCHOOL, AND THEY

 

 

DECIDED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO CREATE A SCHOOL OF

 

 

THE ENVIRONMENT COUNCIL, WHICH THEY HAVE DONE.

 

 

I'M NOT SURE IT'S CALLED A COUNCIL, BUT THEY HAVE

 

 

A LARGER -- AND THERE WAS A RE -- COMPLETE

 

 

REORGANIZATION OF THE SCHOOL. A NEW BUILDING WAS

 

 

BEING DEVELOPED; NUMBERS OF INDIVIDUALS WERE BEING

 

 

ASKED TO SERVE ON DUPLICATE BOARDS; AND SO,

 

 

ALLY, THIS WAS PUT ON HOLD UNTIL THE SCHOOL

 

 

BASIC COULD RE-SORT AND REORGANIZE. AND IT'S OUR

 

 

INTENTION TO COMPLETE THIS, BUT WE HAVE NOT -- IN

 

 

FACT, WE HAVE MADE SEVERAL ATTEMPTS SINCE THAT

 

 

POINT. THE NEW DEAN HAS GIVEN ME THE GO-AHEAD TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 414

 

 

SAY THAT WE PROBABLY WILL DO THIS IN THE NEAR

 

 

FUTURE, BUT WE HAVEN'T.

 

 

Q. DID MR. REED EVER ACCEPT OR DECLINE YOUR

 

 

INVITATION?

 

 

A. HE -- I THINK HIS WORDS TO ME WERE -- WHEN I MET

 

 

WITH HIM AT HOBE SOUND WAS, IT WAS A GOOD IDEA; HE

 

 

WAS APPRECIATIVE OF BEING CONSIDERED; HE WAS

 

 

EXTREMELY BUSY; HE MIGHT CONSIDER IT SOME TIME IN

 

 

THE FUTURE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU MENTION IN HERE THAT YOU

 

 

INTEND TO WORK WITH THE DISTRICT TO DEVELOP BEST

 

 

MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS, AND I THINK

 

 

I'VE SEEN THAT IN YOUR WRITING SEVERAL PLACES. IN

 

 

RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, WHEN YOU TALK

 

 

ABOUT RESEARCH, YOU TALK ABOUT DOING RESEARCH FOR

 

 

BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR FORESTRY AND

 

 

AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO WETLANDS.

 

 

A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)

 

 

Q. IS THIS A -- SORT OF A UNIQUE CONCEPT THAT YOU

 

 

WOULD DO BMPIS FOR A WETLAND ITSELF? FOR THE

 

 

NATURAL AREA, YOU WOULD DO THE BMP AS OPPOSED TO

 

 

THE, LET'S SAY, INDUSTRIAL OR OTHER USE ADJACENT

 

 

TO THE NATURAL AREA. DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY

 

 

QUESTION?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 415

 

 

 

 

A. ARE YOU -- NOT COMPLETELY. ARE YOU ASKING -- GO

 

 

AHEAD, REPHRASE IT, PLEASE.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

A. CAN I SEE THE DOCUMENT THAT YOU'RE---

 

 

Q. SURE. SURE. I'M REFERRING TO OVER HERE, RESEARCH

 

 

IS NEEDED TO -- AND IT'S THE ONE, TWO -- THIRD

 

 

BULLET DOWN.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. YES. "DEVELOP BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR

 

 

FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO

 

 

WETLANDS."

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. BUT YOU HAVE PROPOSED IN YOUR LETTER TO

 

 

MR. REED, AND ELSEWHERE -- I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN

 

 

HONEST IN YOUR DEPOSITION -- THAT'S WHAT YOU

 

 

PROPOSED TO DO WAS BMP'S FOR THE ACTUAL NATURAL

 

 

AREAS THEMSELVES.

 

 

A. ARE YOU ASKING WHAT'S SO, WHAT IS YOUR

 

 

QUESTION?

 

 

Q. THE QUESTION IS, ISN'T THAT A RATHER UNIQUE

 

 

CONCEPT THAT YOU WOULD DO A BMP FOR A NATURAL

 

 

AREA?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 416

 

 

 

 

A. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT SAYS NATURAL AREA HERE, IT

 

 

SAYS---

 

 

Q. NO. IT SAYS NATURAL AREA IN YOUR LETTER TO

 

 

MR. REED AND IN OTHER DOCUMENTS.

 

 

A. WELL, LET ME -- WHERE DO WE SEE THAT? SHOW ME

 

 

THAT, PLEASE.

 

 

Q. THAT'S IN RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX.

 

 

A. OKAY. WHERE IS THAT?

 

 

Q. THE END OF THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. "REST ASSURED

 

 

THAT OUR RESEARCH FINDINGS WILL BE AVAILABLE TO

 

 

ALL AND MADE PUBLIC AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IN

 

 

ADDITION, WE WILL WORK WITH THE SOUTH FLORIDA

 

 

WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT TO DEVELOP THE BEST

 

 

MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS.''

 

 

A. WELL---

 

 

Q. BUT, IN FAIRNESS, DR. RICHARDSON, LET ME TELL YOU

 

 

THE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES APPEARS THROUGHOUT

 

 

YOUR DOCUMENTS. I MEAN, I CAN FIND IT OTHER

 

 

PLACES.

 

 

A. OH, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. I JUST---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- YOU SAID -- I THOUGHT YOU SAID FOR NATURAL

 

 

WETLANDS. I DON'T SEE WHERE IT SAYS NATURAL

 

 

WETLANDS HERE. THAT'S MY POINT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 417

 

 

 

 

Q. OH, YOU DON'T CONSIDER THE WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREAS NATURAL AREAS?

 

 

A. NOT ANY MORE.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. I MEAN, THEY ARE WETLANDS, BUT THEY ARE NOT---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- IN THEIR ORIGINAL NATURAL STATE. THAT'S WHY I

 

 

WAS LOOKING FOR THE WORD NATURAL. FOR A WETLANDS,

 

 

YOU CAN HAVE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR

 

 

WETLANDS AS WELL AS YOU HAVE FOREST LANDS. A

 

 

PERFECT CASE IN POINT IS WE HAVE BEEN WORKING

 

 

WITH WEYERHAEUSER. AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW,

 

 

PINE PLANTATIONS ARE TECHNICALLY WETLANDS, AND

 

 

BOTTOM LAND HARDWOOD FORESTS AND SO FORTH, WHICH

 

 

ARE FORESTRY PRACTICES. THERE ARE -- THEY ARE

 

 

SYSTEMS THAT CAN BE NATURAL, OR MANAGED, OR

 

 

MANMADE, AND THEY ARE CONSIDERED WETLANDS, AND YOU

 

 

CAN COME UP WITH BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR

 

 

THOSE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS, AND THEY ARE LEGALLY

 

 

DEFINED AS WETLANDS.

 

 

Q. THE FORESTRY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, ARE THOSE

 

 

INDUSTRY-RELATED ACTIVITIES WHERE A CERTAIN AMOUNT

 

 

OF TIMBER IS REMOVED FROM THE LAND, A CERTAIN

 

 

AMOUNT IS LEFT, A CERTAIN AMOUNT IS REPLANTED?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 418

 

 

 

 

A. IN SOME CASES, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT IN ANY PLACES WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO

 

 

MAINTAIN NATURAL AREAS, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH,

 

 

LIKE, BMP'S FOR THOSE NATURAL AREAS? THAT WAS MY

 

 

QUESTION, REALLY.

 

 

A. WELL, WE HOPE TO DEVELOP SOME BMP'S RELATED TO --

 

 

THERE IS NO REASON THAT YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH

 

 

MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR WETLANDS SYSTEMS.

 

 

Q. SO, THIS IS SORT OF A UNIQUE IDEA AT THE CENTER

 

 

THAT HASNFT REALLY---

 

 

A. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF -- PROBABLY ONE OF THE AREAS

 

 

WE WOULD LIKE TO PURSUE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. OVER IN YOUR LETTER OF JULY 1990, AGAIN TO

 

 

MR. REED, YOU'VE SENT HIM A COPY OF YOUR FIRST

 

 

ANNUAL REPORT, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE GOING

 

 

TO QUANTIFY THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL, AND

 

 

DETERMINE IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES FOR THE

 

 

ECOSYSTEM. AND I GUESS I WOULD ASK YOU WHAT THE

 

 

IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE

 

 

DEVELOPED FOR THE EVERGLADES ARE?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I -- THE INFORMATION I HAVE TO DATE, WE,

 

 

BASICALLY, IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES,

 

 

WOULD BE TO LOOK AT THE -- THE PRIMARY ONE WOULD

 

 

BE HOW TO REDISTRIBUTE THE WATER RELATED TO THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 419

 

 

 

 

SURFACE FLOW OF THESE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS. THAT

 

 

WOULD BE ONE AS RELATES TO SORT OF THIS LANDSCAPE

 

 

REVIEW.

 

 

Q. YOU'RE JUST BEGINNING THAT, THOUGH, AREN'T YOU?

 

 

A. WELL, I'VE COMPILED INFORMATION ON IT; I HAVEN'T

 

 

PULLED THAT ALL TOGETHER. AND THEN, IN TERMS OF

 

 

MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES, I THINK WE WILL TRY TO --

 

 

WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT PHOSPHORUS STORAGE

 

 

POTENTIAL, AND, AS IT RELATES TO MANAGEMENT OF

 

 

THESE SYSTEMS, I BELIEVE ONE OF THE IMPORTANT

 

 

ASPECTS WAS TO DETERMINE IF AND HOW LONG

 

 

PHOSPHORUS COULD BE STORED IN THOSE SYSTEMS,

 

 

AS I FELT THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT AREA TO TAKE A

 

 

LOOK AT.

 

 

Q. AND YOU'VE DECIDED HOW LONG CAN IT BE STORED?

 

 

A. WELL, I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT YEAR OR DATE ON HOW

 

 

LONG IT CAN BE STORED. IT SEEMS TO BE -- IF

 

 

IT'S -- I THINK I CAME UP WITH A FAIRLY INFORMED

 

 

APPROACH ON HOW TO BASICALLY LOOK AT PEAT

 

 

ACCRETION AND PHOSPHORUS STORAGE FOR THAT SYSTEM,

 

 

AND A MECHANISM THAT BASICALLY INDICATES THAT IF

 

 

YOU CAN MAINTAIN REASONABLE HYDROLOGY, YOU CAN

 

 

STORE IT FOR AN INFINITE LONG PERIOD OF TIME. I

 

 

CAN'T SAY EXACTLY HOW LONG.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 420

 

 

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU DONE THE MODELING FOR THE HYDROLOGY SO

 

 

THAT YOU COULD SAY TO THE DISTRICT THIS IS THE

 

 

PRECISE HYDROLOGY THAT YOU WOULD NEED TO USE WITH

 

 

THESE AREAS TO MAINTAIN THEM IN AT LEAST THEIR

 

 

CURRENT CONDITION?

 

 

A. WE HAVE STARTED TO DO SOME OF THAT MODELING.

 

 

Q. WHO IS DOING THAT MODELING FOR YOU?

 

 

A. I'M HAVING A STUDENT WORK PRIMARILY ON THAT

 

 

MODELING.

 

 

Q. WHICH STUDENT IS THIS?

 

 

A. WELL, IT'S A CO-STUDENT OF MINE AND DR. RECKHOW'S,

 

 

SONG.

 

 

Q. SONG. OKAY. WHEN WILL THAT WORK BE COMPLETED?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE. HE IS -- HE'S COMPLETED THE

 

 

LITERATURE REVIEW AND SOME DATA COMPILATIONS, AND

 

 

I THINK HE HAS DONE SOME FIRST OR SECOND CUTS ON

 

 

SOME OF THE DATA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT MODEL ARE YOU GOING TO USE FOR THIS?

 

 

A. WELL, RIGHT NOW, THE FIRST CUT ON IT IS MORE OF A

 

 

BEYSIAN STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AS IT RELATES TO THE

 

 

ACTUAL WATER QUALITY DATA, AND THE HYDROLOGY, AND

 

 

THE INPUTS AND OUTPUTS, AND FOR THE SPECIFICS OF

 

 

THAT. I COULD GIVE YOU SOME TERMS, BUT IT

 

 

WOULDN'T MEAN A WHOLE LOT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 421

 

 

 

 

Q. NO, YOU CAN DO THAT, BUT I WOULD ASK YOU TO PLEASE

 

 

DO IT IN LAYMAN'S LANGUAGE. I MEAN, I IMAGINE

 

 

THERE IS A SPECIFIC HYDROLOGIC MODEL THAT YOU

 

 

WOULD NEED TO USE.

 

 

A. WELL, WE'RE DEVELOPING A HYDROLOGIC MODEL---

 

 

Q. YOU'RE GOING TO BUILD YOUR OWN MODEL---

 

 

A. --- AND THEY'RE DEVELOP---

 

 

Q. --- FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

DISTRICT?

 

 

A. NO, NO, FOR A SPECIFIC COMPONENT. WE ARE

 

 

DEVELOPING SOMETHING FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA

 

 

2A, PRIMARILY.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU ARE DEVELOPING A WATER MODEL FOR 2A, THAT

 

 

YOU BELIEVE THAT IF THIS WATER MODEL WERE USED --

 

 

I MEAN, JUST SO I'M -- SO I MAKE SURE WE'RE ON THE

 

 

SAME WAVELENGTH -- 2A WOULD REMAIN, IN YOUR

 

 

OPINION, IN ITS PRESENT STATE. IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. THAT'S NOT THE OVERALL GOAL. THE GOAL OF THE

 

 

MODEL AT THE PRESENT STAGE RIGHT NOW IS TO TRY TO

 

 

UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HYDROLOGY AND

 

 

WATER QUALITY. AND THE SECOND PHASE, THE SPECIFIC

 

 

GOALS OF THAT MODEL, WHICH ARE TO BE DETERMINED --

 

 

THERE MAY BE ANOTHER PHASE -- REALLY ARE UNDER THE

 

 

DIRECTION OF DR. RECKHOW, NOT MYSELF.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 422

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, THE FIRST PHASE IS YOU'RE STILL TRYING

 

 

TO SEPARATE OUT THIS ISSUE THAT YOU'RE NOT EVEN

 

 

SURE WE CAN SEPARATE OUT, HYDROLOGY AND WATER

 

 

QUALITY, IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME -- WE'RE TRYING TO TEASE OUT

 

 

SOME COMPONENTS WITH A LIMITED DATABASE THAT IS

 

 

AVAILABLE. WE'RE TRYING TO BASICALLY SEE IF

 

 

THERE'S A RELATIONSHIP, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN WATER

 

 

DEPTH AND WATER QUALITY, AND FLOW AND WATER

 

 

QUALITY, AND SOME OTHER ASPECTS OF THAT.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU'RE REALLY AT A VERY EARLY STAGE OF A

 

 

RESEARCH PROJECT?

 

 

A. FAIRLY EARLY IN THAT, YEAH. HE'S BEEN WORKING ON

 

 

THAT A NUMBER OF MONTHS, BUT---

 

 

Q. DO YOU THINK THIS WILL TAKE SEVERAL YEARS?

 

 

A. I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA. DR. RECKHOW WOULD HAVE A

 

 

BETTER IDEA, BECAUSE THE LAST FEW MEETINGS THAT

 

 

SONG HAS MADE UPDATES ON HIS PROGRESS, I HAVE NOT

 

 

ATTENDED; I HAVE BEEN AT DEPOSITIONS.

 

 

Q. DR. RECKHOWFS WORK THAT HE'S DOING ON THIS, DO YOU

 

 

BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL BE USED IN THESE PARTICULAR

 

 

PROCEEDINGS IF IT'S COMPLETED, PHASE TWO?

 

 

A. WHAT'S THE LAST PART, PHASE TWO? YOU'VE GOT ME ON

 

 

THAT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 423

 

 

 

 

Q. WELL, YOU SAID PHASE ONE WAS BEING DONE BY---

 

 

A. OH, PHASE TWO.

 

 

Q. --- SONG ON HYDROLOGY AND WATER QUALITY. YOU

 

 

HAVEN'T REALLY TOLD ME WHAT DR. RECKHOW IS DOING

 

 

ON PHASE TWO, I DON'T THINK; OR IF YOU DID, I

 

 

MISSED IT SOMEHOW.

 

 

A. I AM -- AS I SAID, I'VE MISSED -- WE HAD SOME

 

 

EARLY MEETINGS TO -- MY ROLE IN THIS HAS BEEN

 

 

PRIMARILY TO HELP SONG UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM,

 

 

AND TO PROVIDE WHAT DATA I COULD, AND TO HELP

 

 

HIM LOCATE SOME OTHER DATA.

 

 

DR. RECKHOW HAS BEEN PRIMARILY THE MODELING

 

 

PERSON FOCUSING ON THIS. AND I HAVE BEEN --

 

 

WELL, I'VE BEEN THERE SORT OF AS A -- AS AN

 

 

EXPERIMENTALIST AND AS AN ECOLOGIST, TO TRY TO

 

 

BASICALLY GUIDE THEM IN TERMS OF WHETHER THIS

 

 

MAKES ANY REASONABLE -- AS YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW,

 

 

REASONABLE SENSE. MODELERS CAN MAKE MODELS,

 

 

BUT THEY MAY NOT SIMULATE THE SYSTEM ACCURATELY.

 

 

Q. OH, I COULD SAY WITH SOME CERTAINTY THEY MAY NEVER

 

 

MAKE SENSE TO SOME OF US, BUT---

 

 

A. BUT, IN ANY CASE -- SO HE IS -- HE HAS MADE SOME

 

 

PROGRESS, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN THE LAST TWO

 

 

PRESENTATIONS, SO I DON'T---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 424

 

 

 

 

Q. SO, REALLY, THERE'S NOT LIKE TWO PHASES IN THE

 

 

SENSE THAT YOU DO ONE TASK, AND THEN THERE'S A

 

 

WHOLE SEPARATE SET OF TASKS. IT'S ALL THE

 

 

BUILDING OF THIS MODEL, AND YOU'RE JUST SIMPLY

 

 

DOING THE DATA INPUT AND THE ECOLOGICAL CONCERNS,

 

 

AND THEN DR. RECKHOW---

 

 

A. INTERPRETATION.

 

 

Q. --- IS GOING TO DO -- INTERPRETATION OF WHAT, THE

 

 

DATA?

 

 

A. WELL, INTERPRETATION OF WHICH DATA WOULD BE

 

 

APPROPRIATE, AND WHETHER IT MAKES ECOLOGICAL

 

 

SENSE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHICH DATA ARE YOU DIRECTING MR. SONG TO

 

 

IS IT DR. SONG OR MR. SONG?

 

 

A. MR. SONG.

 

 

Q. MR. SONG.

 

 

A. QIAN.

 

 

Q. MR. QIAN SONG?

 

 

A. NO -- WELL, IT WOULD BE QIAN SONG IN CHINA, BUT

 

 

IT'S SONG QIAN HERE.

 

 

Q. SORRY. MR. QIAN. WHICH DATA?

 

 

A. MOST OF IT COMES FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER

 

 

MANAGEMENT DISTRICT'S FILES.

 

 

Q. ARE THEY IN THE SWIM PLAN?

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 425

 

 

A. THIS DATA?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. SOME COMPONENTS OF IT ARE, I THINK.

 

 

Q. COULD I HAND YOU THE SWIM PLAN AND YOU COULD TELL

 

 

ME WHICH ONES YOU'RE DIRECTING HIM TO USE?

 

 

A. THE RAW DATA WOULD NOT BE, I DON'T BELIEVE, IN THE

 

 

SWIM PLAN.

 

 

Q. I'M HANDING YOU -- LET ME JUST PUT IT ON THE

 

 

RECORD -- THE SUPPORTING INFORMATION DOCUMENT AND

 

 

THE APPENDICES. TAKE YOUR CHOICE WHERE YOU THINK

 

 

THIS DATA MIGHT APPEAR.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

A. WELL, THE RAW DATA -- MY CURSORY VIEW OF THESE

 

 

DOCUMENTS---

 

 

Q. WELL, TAKE YOUR TIME, BECAUSE WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT

 

 

YOU'RE BUILDING THIS MODEL -- THE DATA YOU'RE

 

 

BUILDING IT FROM, BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT THIS IS

 

 

SOMETHING THAT WILL BE USED. AT LEAST FROM THE

 

 

NAMES YOU'RE NAMING AND THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING

ABOUT, I WOULD ASSUME THIS IS GOING TO BE USED IN

OUR SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDINGS ---

 

 

A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE---

 

 

Q. --- AND NOBODY'S SAYING NO AROUND THE TABLE,

 

 

SO ---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 426

 

 

 

 

A. --- TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IT WILL NOT BE. THIS IS

 

 

SOME---

 

 

Q. THEY'RE NOT SAYING NO, DR. RICHARDSON. THAT'S A

 

 

PRETTY GOOD SIGN, IT'S FREE AIM---

 

 

A. WELL, TO MY---

 

 

Q. --- THERE ARE CLUES HERE.

 

 

A. THIS PROJECT IS PRIMARILY BEING RUN, FIRST OF ALL,

 

 

AS A GRADUATE STUDENT PROJECT TO BASICALLY DO A

 

 

Ph.D. DISSERTATION ON---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- SO---

 

 

Q. WELL, I MEAN, IF MR. GREEN OR MR. BURGESS WANT TO

 

 

TELL ME THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TESTIFY FROM THE

 

 

BASIS OF IT, OR THAT DR. RECKHOW ISN'T GOING TO,

 

 

THEN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T NEED TO GO SO FAR DOWN

 

 

THIS ROAD---

 

 

A. WELL, I---

 

 

Q. --- THEY'RE LETTING ME CHASE A BLIND ALLEY, IS WHAT

 

 

IT LOOKS LIKE. BUT, ANYWAY---

 

 

A. IN ANY CASE, THE RAW DATA TO SUPPORT THIS IS NOT

 

 

HERE -- SOME OUTPUT DATA. THE ONE THING I DO

 

 

KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ONE OF OUR EARLY MEETINGS

 

 

WAS, I GAVE SONG A CHARGE, COULD YOU TAKE THE

 

 

ORIGINAL DATA FROM THE SWIM PLAN, APPENDIX B, FOR

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 427

 

 

EXAMPLE, LIKE, ON PAGE -- THIS IS NOT THE -- I'M

 

 

NOT GIVING YOU THE -- ANYTHING MORE THAN A TEST

 

 

THAT I GAVE HIM TO SEE IF HE COULD START WITH,

 

 

COULD YOU REPRODUCE, FOR EXAMPLE, ON PAGE B-148---

 

 

Q. I DON'T NEED HIS TEST. I NEED THE ACTUAL DATA,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

A. BUT IT'S -- THE DATA'S NOT HERE.

 

 

Q. IT'S NOT IN THE SWIM PLAN?

 

 

A. NO. THIS IS THE OUTPUT; THIS IS NOT THE DATA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. TELL ME WHICH DATA AT THE

 

 

DISTRICT YOU DIRECTED HIM TO USE, OR SUGGESTED

 

 

THAT HE USE, OR APPROVE THAT HE USE -- THE NAME

 

 

OF IT.

 

 

A. OH. THE DATA WOULD BE THE INFLOWS AND OUTFLOWS,

 

 

ALL OF THOSE FROM WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, THE

 

 

RAINFALL DATA.

 

 

Q. FROM 2A?

 

 

A. FROM 2A. ANY SURFACE WATER DATA THAT WE COULD

 

 

OBTAIN IN TERMS OF SURFACE WATER QUALITY; SOME OF

 

 

MY DATA THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE RELATED TO

 

 

THE---

 

 

Q. WHICH OF YOUR DATA?

 

 

A. SOME SURFACE WATER QUALITY. HE IS NOW PERUSING

 

 

THAT AT THIS POINT, I BELIEVE, BUT I'M NOT SURE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 428

 

 

 

 

WHAT HE'S GOING TO INCLUDE OR NOT INCLUDE OF MY

 

 

DATA.

 

 

Q. IS YOURS ORTHO? IS YOUR SURFACE WATER

 

 

ORTHOPHOSPHATE?

 

 

A. IT IS MOSTLY ORTHO.

 

 

Q. AND THEIRS IS TOTAL PHOSPHORUS FOR THE DISTRICT --

 

 

THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT?

 

 

A. I THINK IT'S BOTH, IN SOME CASES. THERE ARE

 

 

SOME -- IT'S BOTH. SO---

 

 

Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE? YOUR SURFACE WATER QUALITY,

 

 

ORTHOPHOSPHATE DATA. WHAT ELSE?

 

 

A. WELL, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ALL ASPECTS OF OUR

 

 

DATA. WE MAY LOOK AT SOME PORE WATER DATA. WE

 

 

MAY LOOK -- WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ACCRETION

 

 

INFORMATION. SO, WE ARE TRYING TO BASICALLY GET

 

 

A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREA 2A FUNCTIONS, AND SEE IF WE CAN DEVELOP---

 

 

Q. IS THIS PART OF YOUR -- ARE YOU GOING TO BASE PART

 

 

OF YOUR LANDSCAPE REVIEW ON THIS OR IS THIS A

 

 

SEPARATE -- TOTALLY SEPARATE ISSUE?

 

 

A. IT'S ONLY ONE PIECE. I DOUBT -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T

 

 

KNOW IF IT WILL BE FAR ENOUGH ALONG TO DO ANYTHING

 

 

WITH AT THAT TIME. AND THIS IS TRULY A Ph.D.

 

 

DISSERTATION.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 429

 

 

Q. WHAT PARAMETERS IS THE MODEL GOING TO TRY AND

 

 

PREDICT?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE CURRENT VERSION IS GOING TO

 

 

PREDICT. THAT'S UNDER DR. RECKHOW'S CHARGE. WE

 

 

ORIGINALLY -- I THINK THE ORIGINAL ONE THAT I TOLD

 

 

YOU WAS TO LOOK AT SURFACE WATER QUALITY IN

 

 

RELATIONSHIP TO WATER CHARACTERISTICS.

 

 

Q. DID YOU TALK ABOUT THE DEPTH AND FLOW?

 

 

A. DEPTH AND FLOW; INFLOW, OUTFLOW, RAINFALL.

 

 

Q. SO -- JUST SO I'M STRAIGHT, YOUR IMPORTANT

 

 

MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY

 

 

DETERMINED BASICALLY INVOLVE FOCUSING ON THE TYPE

 

 

OF RESEARCH AND THE TYPE OF MODELING THAT YOU

 

 

BELIEVE WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR THE MANAGEMENT

 

 

OF 2A, REALLY?

 

 

A. YES. IT'S GOING TO BE BASED, TO A LARGE DEGREE,

 

 

ON OUR -- WHEN WE FINISH OUR FIVE- TO SIX-YEAR

 

 

STUDY, WE EXPECT TO HAVE SPECIFIC MANAGEMENT

 

 

RECOMMENDATIONS THAT COULD INCLUDE, AS YOU KNOW,

 

 

FROM THE DOSING STUDY, WHAT MIGHT BE INAPPROPRIATE

 

 

RANGE OF VALUES. WE MAY HAVE THE EFFECTS OF MASS

 

 

LOADING, THE STORAGE CAPACITIES.

 

 

IT'S HOPED THAT WE WILL HAVE SOME HYDROLOGY

 

 

INFORMATION. AND IT IS ALSO -- AND, AS I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 430

 

 

MENTIONED TO YOU, IT WAS HOPED TO HAVE A FIREWATER

 

 

NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY, WHICH WE OBVIOUSLY

 

 

HAVE NOT DONE AT THIS POINT, BUT I THINK THAT IS

 

 

CRITICAL TO UNDERSTANDING HOW TO MANAGE THESE

 

 

SYSTEMS.

 

 

Q. YOU SAID APPROPRIATE RANGE OF VALUES. FOR WHAT?

 

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

 

 

A. NUTRIENT VALUES, PRIMARILY, LOOKING AT BOTH THE

 

 

GRADIENT STUDY, THE FERTILIZER STUDY AND THE

 

 

DOSING STUDY, TO TRY TO PIECE TOGETHER THE

 

 

INFORMATION TO COME UP WITH WHAT I THINK WOULD BE

 

 

PREDICTIVE OR REPRESENTATIVE VALUES FOR HOW THE

 

 

SYSTEM RESPONDS TO THOSE, BOTH LOADS AND

 

 

CONCENTRATION.

 

 

Q. TOWARD WHAT GOAL, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. TOWARDS WHAT GOAL?

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. TO TRY TO DETERMINE, PROBABLY IN ONE CASE, A DOSE

 

 

RESPONSE; IN ONE CASE, TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE

 

 

LEVELS THAT WOULD CAUSE A CHANGE -- A SIGNIFICANT

 

 

CHANGE IN THE SYSTEM.

 

 

Q. BUT TOWARD WHAT GOAL? WHY DO WE EVEN CARE WHAT

 

 

LEVELS ARE COMING IN? I MEAN, I THINK BEFORE

 

 

LUNCH, WE CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT WE HAD

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 431

 

 

 

 

SOME AREAS THAT HAD CHANGED BECAUSE OF NUTRIENT

 

 

ENRICHMENT, BUT THEY HAD BENEFITS AND THEY HAD

 

 

VALUE AS HABITAT, AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE

 

 

ANYTHING NECESSARILY INAPPROPRIATE OR NEGATIVE

 

 

ABOUT THOSE. I MEAN, IT SEEMED TO ME FROM OUR

 

 

DISCUSSION THIS WAS OKAY, THAT A HUNDRED AND FIFTY

 

 

PARTS PER BILLION TOTAL PHOSPHORUS WAS COMING IN,

 

 

THAT IT HAD CAUSED CERTAIN CHANGES IN THE SYSTEM

 

 

AND SO WHAT?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I JOIN IN THAT TOO.

 

 

A. YEAH. I'M NOT SURE -- THE QUESTION. I DONFT

 

 

BELIEVE I SAID---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: "SO WHAT."

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) "SO WHAT"-;'

 

 

A. SO WHAT, OR A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION

 

 

WAS GOOD OR ANYTHING.

 

 

Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THOSE NUTRIENT LOADS NEED TO

 

 

BE REDUCED FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY?

 

 

A. I THINK I SAID FAIRLY CLEARLY THAT I THOUGHT THAT

 

 

I HAD RECOMMENDED EARLY ON THAT THE BMP SHOULD BE

 

 

PUT IN PLACE AND THAT PHOSPHORUS SHOULD BE REDUCED

 

 

TO AS LOW A LEVEL AS POSSIBLE TO THE SYSTEM, BUT

 

 

WHAT LEVEL THAT IS, I DO NOT KNOW.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 432

 

 

Q. OKAY. THAT'S THE -- SO LOWERING THE NUTRIENT

 

 

INPUT, YOU WILL AGREE, IS AN APPROPRIATE GOAL?

 

 

A. YES, I AGREE THAT'S A GOAL.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT WE ARE IN DISAGREEMENT ABOUT IS TO

 

 

WHAT LEVEL IT SHOULD BE LOWERED.

 

 

A. I DON'T PARTICULARLY DISAGREE. I DON'T KNOW THE

 

 

ANSWER TO THAT AT THE MOMENT, BUT WHEN WE FIND OUT

 

 

WHAT WE THINK THE RANGE IS, WE MAY THEN BE IN

 

 

DISAGREEMENT. I'M NOT SURE. WE MAY BE IN

 

 

AGREEMENT.

 

 

Q. BUT I ALSO UNDERSTOOD YOU TO SAY BEFORE LUNCH THAT

 

 

YOU FEEL NO URGENCY OR IMMEDIACY TO OBTAINING THIS

 

 

ANSWER?

 

 

A. WELL, I EXPECT TO DO IT WITHIN THE TIME FRAME IN

 

 

WHICH THE ORIGINAL GRANT WAS SET UP. I DON'T

 

 

EXPECT -- THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS DOES NOT,

 

 

UNFORTUNATELY, BEND TO THE LEGAL SYSTEM VERY

 

 

EASILY. SO, AS WE GET INFORMATION ALONG THE WAY,

 

 

WE WILL PROVIDE IT WITH THE ESTIMATOR -- THE SORT

 

 

OF COMFORT INTERVALS WE HAVE AROUND IT, AND I

 

 

THINK WE HAVE DONE SO. WHEN WE DON'T HAVE IT, I

 

 

THINK THAT'S WHERE THE HESITANCY IS, AS IT WOULD

 

 

BE FOR MOST SCIENTISTS, IS SIMPLY GUESS AS TO WHAT

 

 

IT WOULD BE. SO, I THINK WE ARE MAKING EXTREMELY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 433

 

 

 

 

GOOD PROGRESS TOWARDS THIS.

 

 

Q. AND WHY IS IT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD

 

 

REDUCE THESE NUTRIENT INPUTS OR PHOSPHORUS --

 

 

SPECIFICALLY, PHOSPHORUS INPUTS TO, LET'S SAY,

 

 

WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, FOR EXAMPLE?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I THINK I SAID, TO 2A, YOU KNOW, AS I

 

 

SAID, I'M NOT SURE IF YOU REDUCED THEM

 

 

SIGNIFICANTLY, IT WOULD MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE IN

 

 

THE LONG RUN TO THE SYSTEM RIGHT NOW. I THINK YOU

 

 

COULD CONTINUE -- I THINK THEY SHOULD BE REDUCED

 

 

FROM THE SOURCE IN THE SENSE THAT THE AGRICULTURAL

 

 

COMMUNITY PROBABLY HAS THE ABILITY TO DO SOME OF

 

 

THAT, AND THEY COULD DO IT WITHIN SITE. AND

 

 

THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A VERY LARGE PUBLIC PERCEPTION

 

 

IN THE NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE IDEA

 

 

THAT, IN FACT, THESE SYSTEMS ARE BEING DISTURBED

 

 

BY THIS.

 

 

Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THESE SYSTEMS ARE DISTURBED BY THE

 

 

NUTRIENT INPUT?

 

 

I BELIEVE THERE IS SOME ALTERATION THAT TAKES

 

 

PLACE, YES.

Q. IS THAT A DISTURBANCE?

 

 

A. IT COULD BE CONSIDERED DISTURBANCE IN SOME CASES.

 

 

Q. DO YOU CONSIDER IT A DISTURBANCE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 434

 

 

 

 

 

 

A. YES. BUT, AS I MENTIONED, I DON'T THINK IT'S A

 

 

MAJOR PROBLEM. IT'S A MUCH -- IT'S A LOCALIZED

 

 

PROBLEM.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID TODAY

 

 

THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NUTRIENTS SHOULD BE

 

 

CONTROLLED AT THE SOURCE. IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS -- ONE OF THE

 

 

WAYS TO DO THAT IS TO CONTROL IT AT THE SOURCE.

 

 

THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVE LIMITED POSSIBILITIES

 

 

OF HOW TO DO THAT. THAT RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE

 

 

DONE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IN YOUR OPINION, HAS THAT RESEARCH BEEN

 

 

DONE?

 

 

A. TO DO IT AT THE SOURCE?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. I'M NOT AWARE OF -- I KNOW OF SOME ONGOING

 

 

STUDIES, BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY ANSWERS THAT

 

 

HAVE COME OUT OF THAT RESEARCH.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU DONE, IN THE PAST -- IN ANY OF YOUR

 

 

OTHER EXPERIENCE OR EVEN IN THIS, IN LOOKING AT

 

 

IT, HAVE YOU DONE ANY THOUGHT ABOUT ECONOMIES OF

 

 

SCALE WHERE IT MIGHT BE CHEAPER TO DO IT IN MAYBE

 

 

ONE LARGE AREA AS OPPOSED TO AT EVERY SOURCE

 

 

OUTPUT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 435

 

 

 

 

A. YES. I'M NOT SURE IF I UNDERSTAND, THOUGH. I

 

 

DON'T THINK I'D RECOMMEND THAT IT BE DONE AT EVERY

 

 

SOURCE, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EVERY FIELD. I'm

 

 

NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SOURCE." DO YOU MEAN

 

 

EVERY SINGLE FIELD IT WOULD BE DONE AT, OR EVERY

 

 

SINGLE---

 

 

Q. WELL, WHERE DO YOU RECOMMEND? WHEN YOU SAY "AT

 

 

THE SOURCE," I GUESS I THINK OF THE INDIVIDUAL

 

 

LANDOWNER BECOMING RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DISCHARGE.

 

 

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT REGIONAL TREATMENT SYSTEMS?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING

 

 

WITHIN REGIONS. IT COULD BE SOMETHING IN -- IF IT

 

 

WAS AN URBAN AREA THAT WAS DOING SOMETHING, THEY

 

 

WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A REGIONAL SYSTEM. IF IT WAS

 

 

AN AGRICULTURAL AREA, THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE

 

 

SOMETHING THAT WAS THERE.

 

 

ALL RIGHT. AND I ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED

 

 

THIS TO THE INDUSTRY---

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.

 

 

Q. --- FOLLOWING YOUR INITIAL RECOMMENDATIONS EARLY

 

 

ON, BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU HAD RECOMMENDED THIS IN

 

 

THE VERY BEGINNING, DID YOU NOT?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YEAH.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 436

 

 

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. I THINK I SAID I RECOMMENDED THAT THEY LOOK INTO

 

 

BMP'S TO REDUCE THE SOURCE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT I MEANT WHEN I SAID

 

 

YOU HAD RECOMMENDED IT. HAVE YOU CONTINUED OR AT

 

 

ANY TIME SINCE THEN RECOMMENDED IT AGAIN TO THE

 

 

INDUSTRY?

 

 

A. THE BMP'S?

 

 

Q. YES.

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. AND YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED THAT THEY TRY TO CONTROL

 

 

THEIR NUTRIENTS AT THE SOURCE?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. AND WHAT HAVE THEY SAID?

 

 

A. THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO AS FAST AS THEY POSSIBLY

 

 

CAN.

 

 

Q. AND HOW DO YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO?

 

 

A. WELL, I BELIEVE THEY'VE STARTED MONITORING ALL

 

 

OF THEIR OUTPUT SITES SO THEY GET A BETTER HANDLE

 

 

ON THE FORMS AND SOURCES OF PHOSPHORUS. I BELIEVE

 

 

THEY'VE STARTED TO UNDERTAKE A SERIES OF RESEARCH

 

 

PROJECTS TO LOOK AT SOME REMEDIAL METHODS. I

 

 

THINK THEY ARE LOOKING AT WATER PUMPING AND

 

 

REROUTING OF WATER. I---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 437

 

 

 

 

Q. REGARDING WATER PUMPING AND REROUTING OF WATER,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY WIDESPREAD

 

 

USE OF WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITHIN THE EAA?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THERE MAY BE A NETWORK. I HAVE NOT

 

 

PERSONALLY SEEN THEM NOR HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH

 

 

THEM.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT CONTROL OF

 

 

THE WATER TABLE WITHIN THE EAA MIGHT BE ONE OF THE

 

 

PRIMARY BMPIS THAT THEY COULD USE TO CONTROL THEIR

 

 

NUTRIENT OUTPUT?

 

 

A. BY RAISING -- ARE YOU ASKING ME TO RAISE AND LOWER

 

 

THE WATER LEVELS WITHIN THE EAA? IS THAT WHAT---

 

 

Q. WELL, TO RAISE THEM AND NOT TO PUMP AS MUCH, NOT

 

 

TO DISCHARGE AS MUCH, TO PUMP AS LITTLE AS

 

 

POSSIBLE.

 

 

A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED AT

 

 

THAT. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW, BUT, I MEAN, THAT'S A

 

 

POSSIBILITY.

 

 

Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT MIGHT BE A MAJOR BMP THAT

 

 

COULD BE USED?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK IF YOU -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THEY

 

 

ARE UNDER RESTRICTIONS. THEY CANNOT REDUCE FLOWS

 

 

BY MORE THAN A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE. SO, I THINK

 

 

THERE MUST BE A BOUND WHICH THEY CAN DO THAT ONLY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 438

 

 

 

 

IN WHAT THEY---

 

 

Q. SO, YOU THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT EXCEEDING

 

 

THEIR TWENTY PERCENT (20%), AND SO THEY ARE NOT

 

 

HOLDING BACK WATER?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU KNOW, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I DON'T -- I'M NOT PRIVY TO ANY INFORMATION ON THE

 

 

EAA. I'VE NOT BEEN AT THE EAA IN -- OTHER THAN

 

 

PROBABLY BEING CLOSE, AND I'VE NOT BEEN IN THE

 

 

FIELD IN THE EAA IN MAYBE TWO YEARS.

 

 

Q. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE FIELD EVER IN

 

 

THE EAA?

 

 

A. MAYBE A HALF A DOZEN.

 

 

Q. SIX TIMES IN---

 

 

A. MAYBE. SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

 

 

Q. --- THREE AND A HALF YEARS? HAVE YOU EVER

 

 

DISCUSSED THESE WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITH THE

 

 

INDUSTRY?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY ACTUAL BMPIS THAT YOU

 

 

KNOW FOR A FACT ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED?

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I THINK I WAS AT THAT MEETING,

 

 

THE SAGE MEETING WHERE SOME BMPIS WERE PROPOSED.

 

 

AND I, QUITE FRANKLY, CAN'T TELL YOU WHICH ONES

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 439

 

 

 

 

THEY WERE IMPLEMENTING AND WHICH ONES THEY WERE

 

 

PROPOSING TO IMPLEMENT. BUT THERE WERE A NUMBER

 

 

LISTED. I BELIEVE FOREST IZUNO MENTIONED AT ONE

 

 

OF THE MEETINGS -- I QUITE OFTEN GET

 

 

PRESENTATIONS, AS YOU KNOW, TO THE EVERGLADES

 

 

PROTECTION DISTRICT. AND HE QUITE OFTEN COMPLAINS

 

 

ABOUT FOLLOWING ME, I GUESS. BUT HE ALSO, THEN --

 

 

HE QUITE OFTEN TALKS ABOUT THE PROJECTS THAT HE

 

 

HAS AND SOME BMP'S AND MATERIALS AND THINGS

 

 

THEY'RE DOING.

 

 

Q. THESE ARE PROPOSALS, THOUGH. THESE ARE NOT THINGS

 

 

THAT YOU KNOW ARE ACTUALLY BEING IMPLEMENTED?

 

 

A. MY LAST UNDERSTANDING IS, IN A MEETING I MADE

 

 

AT A PRESENTATION I MADE IN NOVEMBER, HE WAS

 

 

THERE TALKING ABOUT -- THIS IS A RECOLLECTION

 

 

THAT HE HAD IN PLACE THESE RECORDERS AND THEY

 

 

WERE DOING COLLECTIONS, AND HAD BEEN DOING

 

 

COLLECTIONS.

 

 

Q. I WOULD LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT THAT WAS

 

 

PRODUCED AMONG YOUR FILES---

 

 

WITNESS: WOULD YOU LIKE THESE BACK?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: SURE.

 

 

WITNESS: JUST GIVE ME SOME BREATHING

 

 

ROOM OVER HERE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 440

 

 

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. THIS IS A RESEARCH NEWS BULLETIN FROM OUR SCHOOL

 

 

OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW THE APPROXIMATE DATE OF THIS? I DONFT

 

 

THINK IT'S ON HERE ANYWHERE, THAT I COULD -- MAYBE

 

 

I JUST DIDN'T LOOK HARD ENOUGH, BUT I COULDN'T

 

 

FIND IT.

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. IT'S SEVERAL YEARS OLD.

 

 

Q. WOULD IT HAVE COME OUT IN 188, BECAUSE IT MENTIONS

 

 

THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED A THREE HUNDRED AND

 

 

THIRTY-ONE THOUSAND ($331,000.00) GRANT FROM THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.

 

 

A. IT WOULDN'T BE '88, THEN.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN '89?

 

 

A. I THINK IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETIME IN 189, AT

 

 

THE EARLIEST.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU MET WITH MR. WEDGWORTH IN LATE

 

 

SUMMER, VERY EARLY FALL OF 188, BUT YOU DIDNFT GET

 

 

YOUR GRANT UNTIL SOMETIME INTO 189?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. WHEN IN 189 DID YOU RECEIVE THE GRANT?

 

 

A. THE FIRST QUARTER -- SOMETIME IN THE FIRST

 

 

QUARTER. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 441

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WAS IT FOR THIS AMOUNT? IS THIS AMOUNT

 

 

ACCURATE?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE THIS ARTICLE?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MARK THIS AS

 

 

RICHARDSON NUMBER 7, IS IT?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 7 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

A. DID I SEE THIS ARTICLE?

 

 

Q. DID YOU SEE IT WHEN IT CAME OUT?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. IS IT ACCURATE? WAS THE ARTICLE ACCURATE? DID

 

 

YOU READ IT BEFORE IT WAS PRINTED?

 

 

A. MARY MATTHEWS, WHO IS OUR PUBLICATION EDITOR,

 

 

WROTE THIS ARTICLE, AND HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH ME.

 

 

I MAY HAVE -- IN FACT, I THINK I DID -- I PROVIDED

 

 

HER SOME PICTURES. I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE THE MAP

 

 

CAME FROM, BUT I MAY HAVE ALSO PROVIDED THAT. BUT

 

 

SHE -- SHE BASICALLY WROTE THIS AS A NEWS ITEM,

 

 

WHICH SHE DOES FOR -- IF YOU LOOK AT OUR FORMS FOR

 

 

OUR POLICY CENTER ON ECONOMICS, AND OUR FORESTRY

 

 

CENTER, AND THE WHOLE SERIES OF OUR CENTERS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 442

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. IS THIS LIKE A DUKE PUBLICATION THAT

 

 

IS---

 

 

A. IT'S A QUARTERLY---

 

 

Q. --- SENT AROUND?

 

 

A. --- PUBLICATION FOR THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

 

 

Q. IS IT SENT AROUND TO THE ALUMNI?

 

 

A. IT'S SENT OUT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, TO THREE TO FIVE

 

 

THOUSAND PEOPLE---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- ALUMNI, CONTRIBUTORS, FRIENDS.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. IT PRESENTS IN HERE THAT YOU HAVE SAID

 

 

THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING LET'S LOOK ON

 

 

THE FAR RIGHT COLUMN, THE MIDDLE THAT YOU'RE

 

 

GOING TO LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS

 

 

OF CHANGED HYDROPERIOD AND INCREASED NUTRIENT

 

 

LOADINGS, THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN QUANTIFIED.

 

 

THIS WAS IN '89.

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. AND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER THREE MAJOR

 

 

QUESTIONS: WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF INCREASED

 

 

NUTRIENTS IN WATER PUT -- INPUTS ON THE NATIVE

 

 

PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS;

 

 

TWO, WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM NUTRIENT STORAGE

 

 

CAPACITY; AND, THREE, HOW CAN WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 443

 

 

 

 

BE IMPROVED. ARE THOSE STILL THE SAME QUESTIONS

 

 

THAT YOU'RE SEEKING TO ANSWER?

 

 

A. FOR THE -- THOSE COVER THE GENERAL OVERVIEW OF THE

 

 

QUESTIONS.

 

 

Q. AND I TAKE IT THAT, AT PRESENT, YOU ONLY PARTIAL

 

 

ANSWERS TO ANY OF THESE -- IS THAT ACCURATE -- THE

 

 

ONES YOU'VE GIVEN ME OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS?

 

 

A. RIGHT. I'M SURE WE'LL GET INTO MORE DETAILS ON

 

 

SOME OF THESE, BUT WE HAVE COLLECTED AND ARE NOW

 

 

SUMMARIZING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF INFORMATION,

 

 

ESPECIALLY ON THOSE QUESTIONS.

 

 

Q. WILL THERE BE ANOTHER REPORT, OTHER THAN THE '92

 

 

ANNUAL REPORT, THAT WILL HAVE MORE ANSWERS IN IT,

 

 

IN THE NEAR FUTURE?

 

 

A. NOT IN THE NEAR FUTURE. I MEAN, THERE WILL BE

 

 

SOME QUARTERLY REPORTS AS THEY'RE DUE, AND THERE

 

 

WILL BE SOME PUBLICATIONS THAT WILL BE COMING

 

 

FORTH.

 

 

Q. LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THESE QUARTERLY REPORTS. I

 

 

REALLY HAVE A QUESTION ON THOSE. I HAVE A COUPLE

 

 

OF QUARTERLY REPORTS HERE THAT WERE PRODUCED AMONG

 

 

YOUR EXPERT DOCUMENTS, SO I WON'T BE PASSING THESE

 

 

OUT. THEY'RE JANUARY 1992 AND SEPTEMBER 1992.

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 444

 

 

 

 

Q. THOSE WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. DO YOU

 

 

RECALL WHY?

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T THE FAINTEST IDEA WHY.

 

 

Q. WELL---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WELL, I THINK -- FOR

 

 

THE RECORD, I THINK THAT I WROTE YOU A

 

 

LETTER, SUZAN, AND SAID THOSE ARE THE

 

 

LETTER -- THOSE ARE THE DOCUMENTS THAT

 

 

CURTIS HAS IDENTIFIED FOR ME AS CONTAINING

 

 

DATA, WHICH HE WILL CONSIDER IN FORMING HIS

 

 

EXPERT OPINIONS.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THE QUARTERLY REPORTS DON'T

 

 

CONTAIN DATA, DO THEY, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. VERY LITTLE. THEY WOULD HAVE MOSTLY UPDATES ON

 

 

PROJECTS THAT WOULD SAY THAT NUTRIENT SOIL SAMPLES

 

 

ARE CONTINUING TO BE ANALYZED, AND WE'VE COMPLETED

 

 

THE WATER SAMPLES. THEY WOULD -- THEY MAY HAVE A

 

 

FEW, WHAT I WOULD CALL, TIDBITS.

 

 

Q. ARE THEY -- ARE QUARTERLY REPORTS JUST MOSTLY,

 

 

LIKE, REPORT CARDS YOU SEND BACK TO THE CLIENT

 

 

I'M STILL WORKING ON YOUR PROJECT; THIS IS WHAT

 

 

I'M DOING?

 

 

A. BY AND LARGE. THERE MAY BE AN OCCASIONAL -- WELL,

 

 

IT DOES TWO THINGS FOR THEM. IT KEEPS THEM UP TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 445

 

 

 

 

 

 

WHAT WE'RE DOING ON PROJECTS. IT ALSO NOW -- AT

 

 

THE REQUEST OF THE EPD, I BELIEVE -- IN THE

 

 

QUARTERLY REPORTS, IT SAYS, IF WE GAVE ANY

 

 

PRESENTATIONS OR PUBLICATIONS, WE ARE TO INCLUDE

 

 

THOSE IN THE BACK. AND WE'VE TRIED TO NOW DO

 

 

THAT. SO, IT'S A LITTLE MORE FORMALIZED WAY

 

 

FOR THEM TO BE KEPT INFORMED OF WHAT'S GOING ON,

 

 

AS THE EPD HAS ASKED THAT THEY AT LEAST BE

 

 

NOTIFIED NOW BEFORE WE -- IF WE WERE GOING TO

 

 

MAKE PRESENTATIONS, THEY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW

 

 

ABOUT IT.

 

 

Q. I GUESS WHEN WE GET TO THOSE IN TIME, I WOULD ASK

 

 

YOU TO LOOK AT THEM AND SEE WHAT CLUES AS TO WHAT

 

 

YOU BELIEVE YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL YOUR CLIENTS,

 

 

BECAUSE THEY WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. I

 

 

ASSUME THERE'S SOMETHING -- SOME TIDBIT IS IN

 

 

THERE THAT I NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO, BUT I DON'T

 

 

KNOW. I'M -- THEY JUST -- THE TIDBITS WEREN'T

 

 

LEAPING OUT.

 

 

WHAT STUDIES ARE YOU DOING TO STUDY THE

 

 

EFFECT OF INCREASED WATER INPUTS ON THE NATIVE

 

 

PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREAS? THAT WAS UNDER NUMBER ONE, YOUR MAJOR

 

 

QUESTIONS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 446

 

 

 

 

A. WELL, WHEN WE ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED THIS PROJECT,

 

 

AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAD THE IDEA TO DO A

 

 

FIRE-WATER-NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY. AND SO

 

 

THERE WERE SOME IDEAS OF WHAT WE WOULD DO IN TERMS

 

 

OF PUTTING WATER INTO THE SYSTEM. ONE, IT BECAME

 

 

VERY COMPLEX. AND TWO, WE DECIDED TO LOOK AT

 

 

THESE PROBLEM AREAS AS INDIVIDUALS. IN OTHER

 

 

WORDS, LOOK AT, SAY, PHOSPHORUS AND NITROGEN.

 

 

AND, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, AS FATE WOULD HAVE IT,

 

 

AS SOON AS WE TOOK THIS PROJECT, FOR THE FIRST TWO

 

 

YEARS THAT WE WERE IN THIS PROJECT, WE HAD RECORD

 

 

DROUGHTS. WE HAD NO WATER. I WORKED IN TENNIS

 

 

SHOES. AND SO THE CONCEPT OF SETTING UP A

 

 

HYDROLOGY STUDY TO PUMP WATER INTO AN AREA THAT

 

 

HAD NO WATER TABLE WITHIN FORTY CENTIMETERS TO

 

 

SEVENTY CENTIMETERS OF THE SURFACE WAS PRETTY

 

 

UNREACHABLE.

 

 

SO, I DID ESTABLISH THE DISTURBANCE STUDY AND

 

 

SET THAT UP FAIRLY EARLY. AND THAT STUDY IS NOW

 

 

ONGOING. THAT'S THE RECOLONIZATION WATER DEPTH

 

 

STUDY. I SET UP THE FERTILIZER STUDIES, WHICH HAS

 

 

A WATER COMPONENT TO IT. AND WE DO HAVE PLANS TO

 

 

ACTUALLY -- WE HAVE THE DOSING STUDY, OF COURSE.

 

 

WE HAVE WATER BEING PUMPED AS A CONTROL INTO ONE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 447

 

 

 

 

SYSTEM COMPARED TO NO WATER BEING PUMPED. AND WE

 

 

HAVE FULL INTENTIONS TO GO BACK TO WHERE WE

 

 

STARTED AND LOOK AT WATER AND NUTRIENTS, AND

 

 

ESPECIALLY WATER INPUTS.

 

 

Q. ON YOUR DOSING STUDY, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO TURN

 

 

THAT INTO A STUDY THAT LOOKS AT HYDROLOGY, IN

 

 

ADDITION TO NUTRIENTS, BY CLOSING OFF YOUR

 

 

CHANNELS AND HOLDING THEM AT DIFFERENT WATER

 

 

DEPTHS?

 

 

A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF

 

 

RETROFITTING, BUT IT'S A POSSIBILITY, BECAUSE

 

 

THOSE ARE NOT -- THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE POSITIVE

 

 

PRESSURE -- IN OTHER WORDS, THEY KEEP WATER FROM

 

 

COMING IN, BUT IT -- I'M NOT SURE, IF THE WATER

 

 

GOES DOWN ON THE OUTSIDE, HOW -- THEY'RE NOT

 

 

TOTALLY SEALED, AND---

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU GIVEN THOUGHT TO DOING THAT?

 

 

A. WE'VE GIVEN SOME THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY -- WE

 

 

ACTUALLY HAVE -- IN PLANNING THIS SPRING -- SOME

 

 

THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY DO A HYDROLOGY EXPERIMENT,

 

 

BUT NOT WITH THAT SITE. I'M NOT GOING TO TAMPER

 

 

WITH THAT SITE AT THE PRESENT TIME. IT'S BEEN SO

 

 

DIFFICULT TO GET GOING.

 

 

YOU JUST WANT TO KEEP IT GOING, HUH?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 448

 

 

 

 

A. I WOULD LIKE IT TO JUST KEEP FLOWING.

 

 

Q. TO JUST GO? ALL RIGHT. PHASE ONE, YOU WERE GOING

 

 

TO -- AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE -- REESTABLISH --

 

 

YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK FOR MEANS OF REESTABLISHING

 

 

SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE PLANTS, AND WATER

 

 

IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES THAT WOULD IMPROVE

 

 

WATER QUALITY. HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT?

 

 

A. WHERE ARE YOU NOW?

 

 

Q. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. "IN PHASE ONE OF THIS

 

 

PROJECT, RICHARDSON WILL LOOK AT FACTORS

 

 

RESPONSIBLE FOR CATTAIL EXPANSION AND MEANS OF

 

 

REESTABLISHMENT OF SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE

 

 

PLANTS AND WATER IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES

 

 

THAT WOULD IMPROVE WATER QUALITY AS WELL AS

 

 

MAINTAIN NATIVE SPECIES."

 

 

A. WE HAVE DONE PORTIONS OF THAT WHERE WE HAVE LOOKED

 

 

AT FACTORS RELATED TO CATTAIL. WE HAVE -- AS I

 

 

SAID, WE HAVE A VEGETATION EXPANSION STUDY. THE

 

 

FERTILIZER STUDY WAS AN ATTEMPT TO LOOK AT THAT.

 

 

SINCE WE HAVE THREE SITES REPLICATED WITH

 

 

DIFFERENT WATER REGIMES, WE FELT WE COULD GET A

 

 

HANDLE ON THAT. THE---

 

 

HAVE YOU FOUND A MEANS OF REESTABLISHING SAWGRASS

 

 

AND NATIVE PLANTS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 449

 

 

 

 

A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAVE -- IN THE GRADIENT

 

 

STUDY, WE HAVE THOSE TRANSECTS AND -- AND WE

 

 

HAVEN'T REMOVED THE VEGETATION. MOTHER NATURE

 

 

MORE, IN A SENSE, DID THAT BY FIRE AND FREEZING,

 

 

BUT WE HAVE BEEN MONITORING VERY CAREFULLY THE

 

 

REESTABLISHMENT OF SOME OF THOSE PLANT

 

 

COMMUNITIES. AND THE DISTURBANCE STUDY IS SET

 

 

UP TO HAVE KILLED BASICALLY THE NATIVE SEED

 

 

BANK, AND, THEN, BASICALLY TO DETERMINE WHAT

 

 

WOULD AFFECT THE REESTABLISHMENT OF PLANTS IN

 

 

THAT AREA.

 

 

Q. SO YOU'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH ON HOW TO

 

 

REESTABLISH SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVES PLANTS.

 

 

is---

 

 

A. RIGHT.

 

 

Q. ---THAT FAIR?

 

 

A. YEAH, WE'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH. AND WE HAVE

 

 

SOME INFORMATION. BUT I THINK, AS I SAY, IN THE

 

 

NEXT PHASES OF THIS, OUR NEXT -- WE'RE NOW INTO

 

 

THE FOURTH YEAR OF A SIX-YEAR STUDY, SO WE WILL

 

 

START PULLING THIS INFORMATION TOGETHER.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, I JUST WANT TO

 

 

MAKE SURE WHAT YOUR TESTIMONY IS ON FIRE AND

 

 

FROST. WHERE YOU HAVE FIRE AND FROST, AND THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 450

 

 

 

 

SEED BANK IS NOT DESTROYED, DO YOU BELIEVE -- OR,

 

 

IN YOUR OPINION, DOES THE CATTAIL COME BACK, OR

 

 

WILL SAWGRASS REESTABLISH THAT AREA? THE CATTAIL

 

 

SEEDBANK IS STILL THERE.

 

 

A. RIGHT. AND YOU SAY, NOW, IF YOU HAVE FIRE AND

 

 

FROST, OR---

 

 

Q. RIGHT. WE CAN TAKE THEM SEPARATELY. IF YOU HAVE

 

 

ONLY ---

 

 

A. WELL ---

 

 

Q. --- FIRE, WILL THE CATTAIL COME BACK?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: AT THE SAME TIME -- I

 

 

WAS GOING TO ASK YOU.

 

 

A. I THINK TO UNDERSTAND RECOLONIZATION OF ANY SITE,

 

 

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE

 

 

THE ORDER OF WHICH IT HAPPENS. IF YOU HAD FIRE

 

 

AND FROST, IT IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN HAVING FROST

 

 

AND FIRE---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- AND---

 

 

Q. AND WHICH IS WORSE FOR THE CATTAIL, IN YOUR

 

 

OPINION?

 

 

A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE WE'VE HAD A TEST OF BOTH OF

 

 

THOSE, BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS, WE HAD SEVERAL

 

 

SEVERE FROSTS, WHICH KNOCKED BACK THE CATTAIL.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 451

 

 

 

 

Q. IS IT COMING BACK? IS IT REGENERATING IN THOSE

 

 

AREAS?

 

 

A. TO SOME DEGREE, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE CATTAIL IS

 

 

REGENERATING STRONGER THAN THE SAWGRASS?

 

 

A. INITIALLY, THE SITES WERE ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

SAWGRASS AND MAYBE NINETY-NINE PERCENT. AND NOW

 

 

THEY ARE MOVING BACK TOWARDS FIVE PERCENT CATTAIL,

 

 

MAYBE MORE. WE HAVEN'T -- I HAVENFT SEEN THAT

 

 

DATA -- I HAVEN'T ANALYZED THAT LAST BIT OF DATA

 

 

THAT WE TOOK THIS SUMMER. I HAVEN'T SEE IT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WERE THEY BEFORE IN CATTAIL; WHAT

 

 

PERCENTAGE WERE THEY BEFORE?

 

 

A. THE SITES THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?

 

 

Q. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT CATTAIL.

 

 

Q. THESE WERE AT THE FAR NORTHERN END OF WATER

 

 

CONSERVATION AREA 2A?

 

 

A. RIGHT.

 

 

Q. AND WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED BELOW? WHICH STRUCTURE

 

 

ARE WE NOW FINDING SAWGRASS WHERE WE ONCE HAD A

 

 

NEARLY COMPLETE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE,@

 

 

A. WELL, THESE ARE SMALL PLOTS, REMEMBER. I'M NOT

 

 

TALKING IN A HUGE AREA. I'M TALKING ABOUT NEAR

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 452

 

 

 

 

OUR STATION. SO, IT'S ON THE D-LINE. I WOULD

 

 

HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE DATA TO SEE WHICH

 

 

D-LINE.

 

 

Q. SO -- BUT AT THE TOP OF THE D-LINE, WE COULD FIND

 

 

SITES THAT HAD BEEN NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

CATTAIL THAT ARE NOW NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

SAWGRASS?

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. I SAID IN 189 WHEN

 

 

THEY FROZE AND THEN BURNED, THE NEXT YEAR WE HAD

 

 

ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT SAWGRASS COME BACK. AND,

 

 

THEN, WE'VE ANALYZED THOSE SITES SINCE THAT TIME,

 

 

AND I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THE MOST RECENT DATA, BUT I

 

 

THINK THE SECOND YEAR THERE WAS AN INDICATION THAT

 

 

CATTAIL WAS COMING BACK IN AT SOME PERCENTAGE. I

 

 

DON'T REMEMBER THE PERCENTAGE.

 

 

OKAY. BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE NOW, IN 193, IN THOSE

 

 

SITES?

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER?

 

 

I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU ONLY KNOW THE INITIAL RESPONSE?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT. BUT I---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I JUST HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA. I JUST

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 453

 

 

HAVEN'T HAD TIME.

 

 

Q. OKAY. I HAD A QUESTION THAT -- DO THESE SITES

 

 

DOMINATE THE REGION?

 

 

A. WHICH SITES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT---

 

 

Q. THE ONES THAT---

 

 

A. --- THE BURN SITES OR THE---

 

 

Q. WELL, NO, THE ONES THAT YOU'RE SAYING REGENERATED

 

 

IN SAWGRASS THAT PREVIOUSLY WERE A HUNDRED PERCENT

 

 

CATTAIL.

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT IN DETAIL. MY GUESS WAS

 

 

FROM THE AREA THAT BURNED, IT WAS ONLY A SECTION

 

 

OF THE D-LINE. WE ONLY LOST ONE SECTION. SO, THE

 

 

AREA THAT BURNED WAS ONLY A SMALL PIECE. SO I

 

 

DON'T BELIEVE THEY WOULD DOMINATE THE AREA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, IF I INFER FROM THIS WHAT YOU -- WHAT

 

 

YOU WOULD SAY IS, THAT, IF YOU COULD HAVE A GOOD

 

 

FROST AND THEN GO IN AND BURN, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE

 

 

TO WHAT?

 

 

A. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT IF YOU -- THIS GIVES US

 

 

SOME INDICATION FOR THE FIRST TIME, IN AN AREA

 

 

THAT SHOWS SOIL NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, THAT, IN

 

 

FACT, YOU CAN MANAGE SOME OF THOSE SPECIES. IT

 

 

APPEARS, OBVIOUSLY, THE FROST KNOCKED THE CATTAILS

 

 

BACK---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 454

 

 

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- FIRST. BUT, ALSO, AS THEY MANAGE IN THE NORTH

 

 

WITH CATTAILS, YOU CAN BURN THEM ON SEVERAL

 

 

SUCCESSIONS. THERE ARE CERTAIN WAYS TO PROGRAM

 

 

THAT. THERE MAY VERY WELL BE WAYS IN WHICH YOU

 

 

CAN MANAGE THE CATTAILS AND PRODUCE SAWGRASS WITH

 

 

FIRE.

 

 

Q. IN THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. IN THE EVERGLADES.

 

 

Q. ON THOSE MUCK SOILS?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO.

 

 

Q. YOU COULD HAVE CONTROLLED FIRES THAT WOULD TAKE

 

 

OUT THE CATTAILS SUCCESSFULLY WITHOUT CAUSING THE

 

 

MUCK TO BURN?

 

 

A. WELL, THEY BURN SAWGRASS. WE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN

 

 

OUT THERE A NUMBER OF TIMES WHEN THE STATE WARNS

 

 

US. THEY BURN ALMOST CONTINUALLY. THE FISH AND

 

 

WILDLIFE SERVICE OF STATE OF FLORIDA BURN YEAR

 

 

AFTER YEAR. IN FACT, THEY FEEL, IF FIRE IS NOT

 

 

AN INTEGRAL PART OF THAT COMMUNITY, IT HELPS

 

 

RELEASE NUTRIENTS AND REGENERATE THE SAWGRASS, AND

 

 

SO FIRE IS A VERY INTEGRAL PART. AND SO I WOULD

 

 

SEE VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE OF BURNING SAWGRASS AND

 

 

CATTAIL.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 455

 

 

Q. DO YOU INTEND TO RUN EXPERIMENTS TO SEE IF THIS

 

 

IS, IN FACT, SUCCESSFUL?

 

 

A. THAT'S ONE OF THE HOPES WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IN THE

 

 

VERY NEAR FUTURE.

 

 

Q. ARE YOU GOING DO THAT IN 3B, 2B?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHERE WE'D DO IT. AND WE, OF COURSE,

 

 

WOULD NOT HAVE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO GAIN PERMISSION

 

 

TO DO THAT. WE WOULD NOT BE GOING OUT THERE

 

 

SETTING FIRES. I THINK THAT WOULD CAUSE GREAT

 

 

CONCERN FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

 

 

Q. I THINK YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT. I WOULD ADVISE YOU

 

 

TO CLEAR IT WITH SOMEBODY HIGHER THAN THE FEDERAL

 

 

GOVERNMENT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: BUT NOT AT THE TOP.

MS. PONZOLI: BUT NOT AT THE TOP,

YOU'RE RIGHT.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I HAD ONE MORE QUESTION ON THIS,

 

 

AND I'LIL LET IT GO. WELL, I HAVE TWO MORE

 

 

QUESTIONS. I'M SORRY. THERE'S ANOTHER ONE. I

 

 

HAVE A CONTINUING PROBLEM, DR. RICHARDSON, WITH,

 

 

WHEN YOU SAY YOUR PRIMARY GOAL IS TO MAINTAIN

 

 

BIOTIC DIVERSITY -- I'M GOING TO PUT ASIDE

 

 

ECOSYSTEM FUNCTION BECAUSE I THINK I KNOW WHAT

 

 

YOU'LL SAY -- BUT BIOTIC DIVERSITY IN THE

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 456

 

 

EVERGLADES AND AT THE SAME TIME MANAGE IT AS A

 

 

PERMANENT SINK FOR NUTRIENTS, AND I WOULD LIKE YOU

 

 

TO TELL ME HOW YOU BELIEVE THOSE TWO ARE

 

 

COMPATIBLE.

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF SOME

 

 

MANAGEMENT REGIMES WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED. BUT, AS

 

 

I SAID BEFORE, I THINK FROM SOME OF THE WORK OF

 

 

DR. RADER, THAT THERE'S SOME INDICATION THAT THERE

 

 

IS AN INCREASE IN SOME COMPONENTS OF THE

 

 

ECOSYSTEM. AND IT RELATES TO THE FACT THAT

 

 

PHOSPHORUS AT CERTAIN LEVELS WOULD BE A SUBSIDY,

 

 

WHICH COULD CAUSE AN INCREASE. OUR STUDIES FROM

 

 

THE FERTILIZER STUDY FROM DR. VYMAZAL SHOWS THAT,

 

 

IN FACT, YOU GET CHANGES IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER

 

 

AND DIVERSITY OF SPECIES FROM THE PERIPHYTON. AND

 

 

WE MAY FIND THAT ON THE DOSING STUDY. SO, I THINK

 

 

IT HAS TO DO WITH THE -- OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE TALKING

 

 

ABOUT SOME RELATIVE CONCENTRATION AND THRESHOLD.

 

 

THERE'S NO -- AND, AS LONG AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

A NONTOXIC NUTRIENT MATERIAL, IN A HIGHLY STRESSED

 

 

ENVIRONMENT THAT IS LIMITED FOR THAT NUTRIENT,

 

 

YOU'LL GET AN INCREASE.

 

 

YEAH, BUT, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK THAT'S A VERY

 

 

TROUBLING ANSWER, AND LET ME TELL YOU WHY, BECAUSE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 457

DR. RADER'S WORK WAS IN OPEN WATER, ENRICHED

SITES, WHICH YOU TELL ME YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY, BUT

 

 

YOU WILL CONCEDE ARE VERY SMALL IN THE EVERGLADES.

AND A VERY SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SCIENTISTS

BELIEVE THAT THESE OPEN WATER AREAS ARE CLOSING IN

 

 

WITH THE CATTAILS THAT SURROUND THEM, SO THEY

 

 

DON'T EXIST FOR VERY LONG. SO, WHILE THEY MAY

 

 

HAVE A LOT OF MACROINVERTEBRATES IN THEM FOR THE

 

 

LIMITED PERIOD OF TIME THAT THEY'RE AVAILABLE TO

 

 

THIS SYSTEM, IT'S FAIRLY FAIRLY SHORT DURATION.

 

 

NOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM

 

 

WITH THESE OPEN WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSING IN?

 

 

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT AS AN

 

 

ECOLOGIST IN THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. AM I LOOKING AT THE RATE AT WHICH THOSE OPEN SITES

 

 

ARE CLOSING IN?

 

 

Q. NOT EVEN JUST THE RATE, THE FACT THAT THEY CLOSE

 

 

IN. DO YOU ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE OPEN WATER,

 

 

WITH ENRICHED SITES HAVE A TENDENCY TO CLOSE IN

 

 

THE CATTAILS?

A. I HAVE NOT QUANTIFIED THE OPEN SITES CLOSING IN.

 

 

I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THAT.

 

 

Q. NOW, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QUANTIFYING AND

 

 

ESTABLISHING A RATE AND BEING AWARE OF A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 458

 

 

 

 

PHENOMENON. DO YOU AGREE?

 

 

A. YES, I THINK WE DID.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE OPEN

 

 

WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSE IN IN THE EVERGLADES

 

 

WITH THE CATTAILS AT SOME POINT? NOT AT SOME

 

 

RATE, NOT AT SOME RATE OF INCREASE. I'M NOT GOING

 

 

TO -- I HAVEN'T QUANTIFIED IT AND I DON'T KNOW

 

 

ANYONE WHO HAS. I JUST -- THAT IT HAPPENS.

 

 

A. RIGHT. AT SOME POINT, BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY

 

 

"SOME POINT"?

 

 

Q. YES. I GUESS THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO GO OUT THERE

 

 

AND DO RESEARCH ON, IS WHAT THE RATE OF CLOSING IN

 

 

IS, AND, THEN, WE'LL HAVE THEM ALL CLOSED IN AND

 

 

WE'LL KNOW THE RATE.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: AND THAT'S EXACTLY HOW

 

 

HE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. HE HASN'T

 

 

LOOKED AT IT.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU NEED MORE RESEARCH. IS THAT

 

 

RIGHT?

 

 

A. WELL, I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT PARTICULAR

 

 

QUESTION.

 

 

Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT HAPPENS?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THOSE AREAS TO DO

 

 

THAT. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 459

 

 

 

 

OPEN UP WITH FIRES. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE

 

 

TO CREATE OPEN AREAS BY CHANGING THE WATER LEVELS.

 

 

MY POINT IS, I THINK THE SYSTEMS CAN BE MANAGED.

 

 

THEY ARE BEING MISMANAGED HORRIBLY AT THIS STAGE

 

 

FOR THE EVERGLADES PURPOSES. SO, I MEAN, I THINK

 

 

THAT WE CAN COME UP WITH SOME POSITIVE MANAGEMENT,

 

 

DEPENDING UPON THE GOALS THAT PEOPLE SET FORWARD

 

 

FOR WHAT THEY WANT. I THINK MY RESEARCH AND MY

 

 

TEAM'S RESEARCH WILL HELP PROVIDE SOME OF THAT

 

 

INFORMATION. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE END-ALL.

 

 

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EVERY PIECE, BUT IT WILL

 

 

PROVIDE SOME INFORMATION, ESPECIALLY IF WE GET TO

 

 

DO THE THINGS I THINK THAT ARE APPROPRIATE, THAT

 

 

SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO.

 

 

Q. AND THOSE THINGS THAT YOU THINK ARE APPROPRIATE

 

 

AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO ARE TO OFFER

 

 

THE ENTIRE WATER SUPPLY TO THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. THE DISTRIBUTION PATTERN---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- TO STOP PUTTING WATER IN THE OCEAN; TO FLOW THE

 

 

WATER OVER THE SURFACE RATHER THAN MAKE IT POINT

 

 

SOURCES; TO---

 

 

Q. OVER THE EVERGLADES, TO PUT THE WATER OVER THE

 

 

EVERGLADES? A SHEET FLOW -- IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 460

 

 

SAYING?

 

 

A. TO ESSENTIALLY TRY TO REESTABLISH A NORMAL

 

 

HYDROPERIOD AND DISTRIBUTION OF THE WATER. IT IS

 

 

NOW A SERIES OF HOLDING PONDS.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY MODELING OF THE WATER OF THE

 

 

WHOLE SYSTEM?

 

 

A. I HAVE NOT PUT TOGETHER, IF YOU'RE ASKING, A

 

 

HYDROLOGIC MODEL OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM, NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE WHO IS?

 

 

A. THEY'RE -- I'M SURE THE DISTRICT AND SOME OTHER

 

 

PEOPLE ARE DOING THAT. I BELIEVE I WAS AT SOME

 

 

MEETINGS THAT CARL WALTERS ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER A

 

 

FIRST-CUT MODEL. HE'S AT THE UNIVERSITY OF

 

 

BRITISH COLUMBIA. AND HE PUBLISHED A -- ONE OF

 

 

THE FIRST PIECES ON THAT. I THINK TOM MacVICAR

 

 

WORKED ON SOME PIECES OF THAT AT ONE TIME.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A HYDROLOGIC

 

 

MODEL?

 

 

A. NO. I'VE NOT WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A

 

 

HYDROLOGIC MODEL.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF HIS DOING ONE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE HE'S DOING SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES

 

 

IN TERMS OF NUTRIENTS OR WATER OR SOMETHING, BUT I

 

 

AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HE IS DOING.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 461

 

 

 

 

Q. SO, YOU'VE OFFERED NO ADVICE IN THAT REGARD.

 

 

A. I HAVE OFFERED NO ADVICE. I MAY HAVE SUPPLIED

 

 

REPORTS TO HIM AND---

 

 

Q. YOUR ANNUAL REPORTS?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I WOULD HAVE TO

 

 

GO BACK. I DON'T -- ACTUALLY, I'M NOT EVEN SURE

 

 

WE -- WE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE KEPT RECORDS TO ALL

 

 

THE HUNDREDS OF THOSE THINGS WE SENT OUT, BUT I

 

 

DON'T. SO I CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE -- YOU KNOW,