DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 401
DOCUMENTS TO THE UNIVERSITY. AND WE HAVE A
FORMALIZED PROCEDURE AT THE UNIVERSITY HOW TO
CREATE CENTERS. AND SOME TIME DURING THE MID
'80'S, WE WORKED TOWARDS DEVELOPMENT OF A CENTER,
AND I FOLLOWED THOSE GUIDELINES AND THE CENTER
CAME INTO EXISTENCE. I THINK IT WAS FORMALLY
APPROVED -- IT WAS EITHER LATE 189 OR 190. I
CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATE. IT WAS A CENTER;
THERE WAS A LETTER FROM THE PROVOST APPROVING IT,
BUT IT HAD TO GO BEFORE THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF
THE UNIVERSITY.
Q. WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES FOR FORMING A CENTER? DO
YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FUNDING IN
ORDER TO BEGIN A CENTER?
A. THE FUNDING IS NOT THE MAJOR CRITERIA. YOU HAVE
TO HAVE A -- THE COLLEGIALITY REQUIREMENTS ARE
SUCH THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ACADEME WORKING
GROUP, A FACULTY, CROSS CAMPUSES. THERE'S A
GUIDEBOOK PROVIDED BY THE UNIVERSITY. YOU HAVE
TO HAVE A PLAN, AN OBJECTIVE, A SERIES OF GOALS,
AN EDUCATIONAL FORMAT, A RESEARCH FORMAT. YOU
HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THIS WILL PROVIDE THE
UNIVERSITY A -- IT HAS THE BASIS FOR BECOMING A
CENTER OF EXCELLENCE. SO, THERE ARE A NUMBER
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 402
OF ITEM -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE CRITERIA,
BUT THERE IS A FAIRLY LENGTHY PROCEDURE BY
WHICH YOU MOVE FROM STEP "A" TO STEP "B" AND
STEP "C".
Q. OKAY. AND YOU FILED YOUR FIRST PAPERS FOR THE
VARIOUS STEPS WHEN?
A. SOMETIME IN THE MID '80'S, 185, 186, SOMEWHERE IN
THERE.
Q. ARE THOSE DOCUMENTS DOCUMENTS THAT, IF I WERE TO
SEND A SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM WITHOUT DEPOSITION,
THAT THE UNIVERSITY WOULD ALLOW ME TO OBTAIN?
A. YOU'D HAVE TO ASK THE UNIVERSITY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: EXCUSE ME, WOULD YOU
REPEAT THE FIRST PART OF THAT?
MS. PONZOLI: IF I WERE TO ASK FOR THE
DOCUMENTS ESTABLISHING THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER, WOULD THE UNIVERSITY OBJECT TO THE
PRODUCTION OF THOSE DOCUMENTS?
MR. McCAUGHAN: LET ME ASK YOU WHAT
THE PURPOSE WOULD BE. LIKE ALL INTERNAL
DOCUMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY, IF THERE'S A,
YOU KNOW, IF YOU FEEL LIKE THERE'S A VALID
DISCOVERY---
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 403
MR. McCAUGHAN: --- FILED, WE WOULDN'T
OBJECT TO IT.
MS. PONZOLI: CERTAINLY. I THINK I
HAVE CORRESPONDENCE INDICATING THERE WERE
PEOPLE IN FLORIDA WHO FELT THAT THE CENTER
WAS FORMED REALLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THE
PARTICULAR INDUSTRY'S RESEARCH. I REALIZE
FROM OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT IT SERVES MANY
OTHER PURPOSES TODAY. BUT THAT ITS FORMATION
CAME DIRECTLY AS AN OUTGROWTH OF THIS INITIAL
FUNDING. AND IF THAT'S TRUE, IT'S TRUE; IF
IT'S NOT TRUE, IT'S NOT TRUE. BUT I HAVE NO
WAY OF ESTABLISHING THAT WITHOUT THAT
INFORMATION.
MR. McCAUGHAN: GO AHEAD AND SUBMIT IT,
THE SUBPOENA.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. YOU WANT TO THINK
ABOUT IT, OKAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. I GUESS THE SIMPLEST
THING IS JUST SIMPLY TO ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON,
WAS THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE'S INITIAL GRANT,
I GUESS, THE SPARK THAT LIT THE FIRE THAT GOT YOU
TO WHERE YOU COULD HAVE A CENTER?
A. NO, NOT DIRECTLY. IT WASN'T THE PRIMARY PIECE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 404
THERE WAS -- THAT MAY BE ONE OF MANY PIECES. BUT
THE CENTER ACTUALLY, AS I SAID, HAD TO HAVE A
NUMBER OF CRITERIA. IT HAD TO HAVE FACULTY --
CRITICAL MASS OF FACULTY WHO AGREED; IT HAD TO
HAVE SOME GOALS; IT HAD TO HAVE SOME PURPOSE IN
THE SCHOOL AT THE TIME; AND, ESSENTIALLY, THE
UNIVERSITY HAD TO COMMIT SOME RESOURCES ITSELF,
WHICH IT DID, TO ESTABLISHING THIS CENTER. SO,
THE CENTER WAS ACTUALLY ESTABLISHED BY THE DEAN
OF THE SCHOOL OF FORESTRY WHO COMMITTED FUNDS TO
THIS. AND THERE WERE SOME PRIVATE DONORS WHO GAVE
TO HELP ESTABLISH THIS. THERE'S AN ENDOWMENT FUND
THAT WAS ESTABLISHED FOR THE CENTER. AND THERE
ARE SOME STUDENT SCHOLARSHIP FUNDS THAT ARE UNDER
MY DIRECTION RELATED TO THE CENTER THAT, AGAIN,
CAME FROM VARIOUS SOURCES.
SO, THAT -- THAT ALL HAD TO BE PUT IN PLACE.
IT HAPPENED ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS THE RESEARCH
PROJECT TOOK PLACE, SO IT WAS SORT OF A NORMAL
MELDING OF THIS.
Q. OKAY. IN THE DESCRIPTION OF THE DUKE UNIVERSITY
WETLAND CENTER, YOU LIST -- IS THIS THE INITIAL
ONE? IS THIS -- THIS TYPEWRITTEN VERSION---
A. NO. I BELIEVE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 405
Q. --- THAT'S RICHARDSON---
A. --- THERE ARE SEVERAL EARLIER DRAFTS. IN FACT, AS
I MENTIONEDI IN THE MID '80'S, WE HAD TO PRODUCE
SOME EARLY DOCUMENTS THAT WOULD BE WHAT THE
CENTER -- WOULD BE -- ORIGINALLY, IT WAS CALLED
WETLANDS ECOLOGY AND COASTAL SOMETHING CENTER, AND
THEN WENT THROUGH SEVERAL ITERATIONS.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN THIS ONE WAS WRITTEN?
A. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. IT WAS OBVIOUSLY AFTER THE
ONE IN THE MID '80'S, SO IT WAS PROBABLY 189,
MAYBE 188.
Q. MAY I RETRIEVE RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE FROM YOU.
IT'S THE ONLY COPY I HAVE. I BELIEVE THAT -- JUST
A CURSORY GLANCE -- THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR
AND RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE ARE VERY, VERY SIMILAR.
IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. I THINK THEY'RE FAIRLY CLOSE. I---
Q. ALL RIGHT. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT I CAN REALLY
SEE OF SUBSTANCE IS, IS THE SELECTED RESEARCH
PROJECTS CONDUCTED AT DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND
CENTER, AND THEN THERE'S A LIST OF PROJECTS. AND
THEN -- I GUESS I'D JUST LIKE TO ASK YOU. THAT
DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE IN RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE,
DOES IT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 406
A. I BELIEVE SOME OF IT DOES, YES. BUT THE PROBLEM
IS THE COST OF PRINTING---
Q. SURE.
A. --- IS QUITE HIGH---
Q. I CAN IMAGINE.
A. ---AND THAT BROCHURE WAS NOT CHEAP.
Q. IT'S A VERY HANDSOME BROCHURE.
A. I TOOK SOME OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS MYSELF.
Q. DID YOU TAKE THE ONE ON THE FRONT, OF THE
EVERGLADES?
A. NO.
Q. SUNSET IN THE FLORIDA EVERGLADES?
A. NO, THAT WAS -- THAT WAS ACTUALLY A COMMERCIAL
PHOTOGRAPHER WHO DID THAT.
Q. CATTAILS OR SAWGRASS?
A. OH, IT'S HARD TO TELL IN THE SUNSET.
Q. THE LIGHTING IS NOT GOOD, HUH? ALL RIGHT. WHERE
ARE THE RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT ARE LISTED?
A. IF YOU'D OPEN TO THE INSIDE AND LOOK AROUND THE
BORDER---
Q. THE INSIDE SEEMS TO BE A LANDSAT.
A. NO, IF YOU'D LOOK AT THE BORDER---
Q. OHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
A. --- WHICH NO ONE ELSE HAS EVER DISCOVERED EITHER.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 407
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
A. IT WAS MY IDEA TO PLACE THOSE ON THE BORDER, WHICH
ACCORDING TO THE PERSON WHO DOES THE LAYOUT, WHO'S
A PROFESSIONAL IN THE SCHOOL, IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.
BUT THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE I COULD FIT IT IN, AND
IT TURNED OUT TO BE NOT A GOOD IDEA. AND NO ONE
HAS DISCOVERED THIS.
Q. MORE EMPIRICAL DATA RIGHT HERE. ALL RIGHT.
THERE'S JUST A COUPLE OF PROJECTS. I DON'T KNOW
IF THEY'RE LISTED, AND MAYBE YOU CAN POINT ME TO
THEM.
A. I'M NOT ---
Q. YOU HAVE ---
A. EXCUSE ME.
Q. GO AHEAD. NO, GO AHEAD.
A. NO. YOU ASK YOUR QUESTION.
Q. YOU'RE NOT SURE, WHAT?
A. NOPE, GO AHEAD. FINISH YOUR QUESTION.
Q. TWO PROJECTS -- "ECOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE
EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS AND HYDROPERIOD ON CATTAIL
REGENERATION AND NUTRIENT RETENTION IN THE WATER
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 408
CONSERVATION AREAS OF SOUTH FLORIDA." DID YOU
PRINT THAT AROUND THE BORDER?
A. I DON'T KNOW. THE -- LISA PHELPS, MY ASSISTANT,
JUDICIOUSLY WENT THROUGH, BY SPACE, AND JUST
KNOCKED OUT SOME THAT DIDN'T FIT. THERE WAS NO --
I TOLD HER -- I SAID, JUST MAKE THEM FIT. AND SHE
JUST -- SHE SAID, "I CAN'T FIT THEM ALL," AND I
SAID, "FIT WHAT YOU CAN FIT."
Q. AND SINCE NO ONE EVER READ THEM, IT DIDN'T MATTER
ANYWAY.
A. WELL, I THOUGHT THEY WOULD, BUT APPARENTLY THEY
DIDN'T; BECAUSE WE GET REQUESTS, "THANKS FOR THE
BROCHURE, BUT WHAT TYPES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS HAVE
YOU EVER DONE?"
Q. AND YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM LOOK AROUND THE BORDER
OF NORTH CAROLINA. AND THEN "THE NUTRIENT AND
CONTAMINANT TRANSPORT IN SATURATED AND UNSATURATED
SOILS." IS THAT ALSO REFERRING TO YOUR EVERGLADES
WORK?
I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE; WHERE ARE YOU NOW?
Q. THE SECOND -- ON PAGE NUMBER 7.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. THAT MAY REFER MORE TO THE TVA PROJECT THAT WE
HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH. AND THAT ALSO COULD
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 409
BE -- I -- THAT MAY BE A GENERIC TITLE. I CANFT
REMEMBER. I ASKED INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATORS --
THESE ARE NOT ALL MY INDIVIDUAL TITLES. YOU HAVE
TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I DID WAS I WENT TO
INDIVIDUALS IN MY GROUP IN THE CENTER AND ASKED
THEM FOR VARIOUS TITLES OF RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT
THEY WERE DOING CURRENTLY OR -- AND SO. BUT THAT
ONE, I THINK, IS MINE, RELATED PROBABLY TO TVA, OR
MAYBE THE NORTH CAROLINA STUDY.
Q. SURE. ALL RIGHT. ON RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR,
YOU HAVE A FACULTY LISTED. THESE ARE PEOPLE
WHO EITHER ARE DOING RESEARCH ASSOCIATED WITH
THE CENTER, OR WHAT? HOW ARE THESE FACULTY
LISTED?
A. THESE ARE FACULTY WHO HAVE AGREED, BY UNIVERSITY
POLICY, TO BE LISTED HERE AND IN THE BULLETINS; TO
PARTICIPATE; TO WORK WITH STUDENTS ON WETLANDS
ISSUES; TO HELP WRITE GRANTS; TO SERVE ON
COMMITTEES; TO TEACH COURSES; ETCETERA.
Q. SO, WOULD THEY BELONG -- SO, I SEE THEY DO BELONG
TO VARIOUS OTHER DEPARTMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY,
BUT THEN THEY JUST SORT OF JOIN TOGETHER IN THIS
CENTER CONCEPT ---
A. THAT'S THE WAY ---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 410
Q. --- TO SUPERVISE GRADUATE STUDENTS, AND PERFORM
OTHER TASKS.
A. --- THAT IS THE WAY MOST CENTERS FUNCTION IN MOST
UNIVERSITIES. WELL, THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS.
Q. OKAY. AND WE SEE THAT DR. RECKHOW IS LISTED AS
PART OF YOUR FACULTY.
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S REALLY ALL I HAVE
ON THAT. I'D LIKE TO---
MS. PONZOLI: LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, I'D LIKE TO HAND
YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT AND ASK IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY
THAT.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. IT'S A -- THE FIRST ONE HERE IS A LETTER TO IN
FACT, IT LOOKS LIKE SEVERAL LETTERS TO NAT REED.
DID I ANSWER THAT FOR YOU?
Q. DO YOU IDENTIFY THESE AS YOUR DOCUMENTS---
A. YES, THESE ARE---
Q. --- IT'S A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 411
A. --- THESE ARE LETTERS -- A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT. I
BELIEVE, AS I SAID, THESE ARE LETTERS THAT --
CORRESPONDENCE THAT I SENT. ONE OF THEM, I DIDN'T
SIGN, BUT I THINK I DICTATED TO LISA---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- THAT I SENT TO NAT REED.
MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MAKE THIS
COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX.
MR. BURGESS: CAN I JUST GET SOME
CLARIFICATION FOR THE RECORD? WHEN YOU
REFER TO COMPOSITE EXHIBIT, IS THAT THE
MANNER THAT HE'S PRODUCED IT TO YOU, OR
IS THAT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU'RE SHOWING
IT TO HIM?
MS. PONZOLI: NO, THAT'S THE MANNER IN
WHICH IT WAS PRODUCED TO ME. AND DUE TO THE
RATHER TIGHT TIME CONSTRAINTS OF RECEIVING
THE DOCUMENTS AND COMING UP HERE, I HAVE NOT
REALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO PULL OUT OF A
LOT OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS THE SINGLE
ONE OR TWO DOCUMENTS THAT I WISH TO DEAL
WITH. BECAUSE BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO ME,
THEY WERE ALREADY STAPLED TOGETHER. AND
SORT OF UNSTAPLING THEM AND REASSEMBLING
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 412
THEM WAS A TASK THAT TIME WOULD NOT ALLOW.
SO, IN MANY OF THESE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS---
WITNESS: WELL, ON THE FRONT PAGE,
YOU'RE---
MS. PONZOLI: --- I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN
A SINGLE, OR MAYBE TWO DOCUMENTS, BUT THEY
WERE ALREADY PUT TOGETHER. SO, THAT'S ALL I
CAN -- THAT'S ALL I COULD DO WITH IT.
LET'S MARK THIS COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER
SIX.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 6 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU, IT APPEARS
THAT YOU INVITED MR. REED TO SERVE ON SOME KIND OF
A COUNCIL FOR THE WETLAND CENTER. CAN YOU TELL ME
WHAT THAT WAS?
A. YES. WE -- THE WETLAND CENTER WAS DEVELOPING A
COUNCIL. AS PART OF THE MISSION, AS I MENTIONED
TO YOU, THE UNIVERSITY REQUIRED THAT WE HAVE
CERTAIN GOALS AND MISSIONS. AND ONE OF THE
ASPECTS OF THAT WOULD BE TO -- THAT WE MENTIONED
WAS, IN FACT, BECOME INVOLVED WITH ENVIRONMENTAL
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 413
WETLAND ISSUES AROUND THE COUNTRY. AND TO HELP US
IN OVERSEEING AND SELECTING PROJECTS AND DOING
THINGS, WE WERE TO ESTABLISH A COUNCIL. AND SO WE
STARTED THAT PROCESS IN 1990.
Q. DID YOU, IN FACT, FORM A COUNCIL?
A. NO, WE HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE FORMATION OF A
COUNCIL, AS A MATTER OF FACT.
Q. IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON?
A. WELL, SEVERAL. ONE, WE DID HAVE A NUMBER OF
INDIVIDUALS FROM BOTH PRIVATE SECTOR, AND
GOVERNMENT, AND INDUSTRY LINED UP; HOWEVER, OUR
ADMINISTRATION CHANGED IN THE SCHOOL, AND THEY
DECIDED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO CREATE A SCHOOL OF
THE ENVIRONMENT COUNCIL, WHICH THEY HAVE DONE.
I'M NOT SURE IT'S CALLED A COUNCIL, BUT THEY HAVE
A LARGER -- AND THERE WAS A RE -- COMPLETE
REORGANIZATION OF THE SCHOOL. A NEW BUILDING WAS
BEING DEVELOPED; NUMBERS OF INDIVIDUALS WERE BEING
ASKED TO SERVE ON DUPLICATE BOARDS; AND SO,
ALLY, THIS WAS PUT ON HOLD UNTIL THE SCHOOL
BASIC COULD RE-SORT AND REORGANIZE. AND IT'S OUR
INTENTION TO COMPLETE THIS, BUT WE HAVE NOT -- IN
FACT, WE HAVE MADE SEVERAL ATTEMPTS SINCE THAT
POINT. THE NEW DEAN HAS GIVEN ME THE GO-AHEAD TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 414
SAY THAT WE PROBABLY WILL DO THIS IN THE NEAR
FUTURE, BUT WE HAVEN'T.
Q. DID MR. REED EVER ACCEPT OR DECLINE YOUR
INVITATION?
A. HE -- I THINK HIS WORDS TO ME WERE -- WHEN I MET
WITH HIM AT HOBE SOUND WAS, IT WAS A GOOD IDEA; HE
WAS APPRECIATIVE OF BEING CONSIDERED; HE WAS
EXTREMELY BUSY; HE MIGHT CONSIDER IT SOME TIME IN
THE FUTURE.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU MENTION IN HERE THAT YOU
INTEND TO WORK WITH THE DISTRICT TO DEVELOP BEST
MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS, AND I THINK
I'VE SEEN THAT IN YOUR WRITING SEVERAL PLACES. IN
RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, WHEN YOU TALK
ABOUT RESEARCH, YOU TALK ABOUT DOING RESEARCH FOR
BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR FORESTRY AND
AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO WETLANDS.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. IS THIS A -- SORT OF A UNIQUE CONCEPT THAT YOU
WOULD DO BMPIS FOR A WETLAND ITSELF? FOR THE
NATURAL AREA, YOU WOULD DO THE BMP AS OPPOSED TO
THE, LET'S SAY, INDUSTRIAL OR OTHER USE ADJACENT
TO THE NATURAL AREA. DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY
QUESTION?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 415
A. ARE YOU -- NOT COMPLETELY. ARE YOU ASKING -- GO
AHEAD, REPHRASE IT, PLEASE.
Q. ALL RIGHT.
A. CAN I SEE THE DOCUMENT THAT YOU'RE---
Q. SURE. SURE. I'M REFERRING TO OVER HERE, RESEARCH
IS NEEDED TO -- AND IT'S THE ONE, TWO -- THIRD
BULLET DOWN.
A. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. YES. "DEVELOP BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR
FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE IN OR ADJACENT TO
WETLANDS."
Q. RIGHT.
A. OKAY.
Q. RIGHT. BUT YOU HAVE PROPOSED IN YOUR LETTER TO
MR. REED, AND ELSEWHERE -- I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN
HONEST IN YOUR DEPOSITION -- THAT'S WHAT YOU
PROPOSED TO DO WAS BMP'S FOR THE ACTUAL NATURAL
AREAS THEMSELVES.
A. ARE YOU ASKING WHAT'S SO, WHAT IS YOUR
QUESTION?
Q. THE QUESTION IS, ISN'T THAT A RATHER UNIQUE
CONCEPT THAT YOU WOULD DO A BMP FOR A NATURAL
AREA?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 416
A. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT SAYS NATURAL AREA HERE, IT
SAYS---
Q. NO. IT SAYS NATURAL AREA IN YOUR LETTER TO
MR. REED AND IN OTHER DOCUMENTS.
A. WELL, LET ME -- WHERE DO WE SEE THAT? SHOW ME
THAT, PLEASE.
Q. THAT'S IN RICHARDSON EXHIBIT NUMBER SIX.
A. OKAY. WHERE IS THAT?
Q. THE END OF THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. "REST ASSURED
THAT OUR RESEARCH FINDINGS WILL BE AVAILABLE TO
ALL AND MADE PUBLIC AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IN
ADDITION, WE WILL WORK WITH THE SOUTH FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT TO DEVELOP THE BEST
MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR THE WETLANDS.''
A. WELL---
Q. BUT, IN FAIRNESS, DR. RICHARDSON, LET ME TELL YOU
THE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES APPEARS THROUGHOUT
YOUR DOCUMENTS. I MEAN, I CAN FIND IT OTHER
PLACES.
A. OH, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. I JUST---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- YOU SAID -- I THOUGHT YOU SAID FOR NATURAL
WETLANDS. I DON'T SEE WHERE IT SAYS NATURAL
WETLANDS HERE. THAT'S MY POINT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 417
Q. OH, YOU DON'T CONSIDER THE WATER CONSERVATION
AREAS NATURAL AREAS?
A. NOT ANY MORE.
Q. OKAY.
A. I MEAN, THEY ARE WETLANDS, BUT THEY ARE NOT---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- IN THEIR ORIGINAL NATURAL STATE. THAT'S WHY I
WAS LOOKING FOR THE WORD NATURAL. FOR A WETLANDS,
YOU CAN HAVE BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR
WETLANDS AS WELL AS YOU HAVE FOREST LANDS. A
PERFECT CASE IN POINT IS WE HAVE BEEN WORKING
WITH WEYERHAEUSER. AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW,
PINE PLANTATIONS ARE TECHNICALLY WETLANDS, AND
BOTTOM LAND HARDWOOD FORESTS AND SO FORTH, WHICH
ARE FORESTRY PRACTICES. THERE ARE -- THEY ARE
SYSTEMS THAT CAN BE NATURAL, OR MANAGED, OR
MANMADE, AND THEY ARE CONSIDERED WETLANDS, AND YOU
CAN COME UP WITH BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR
THOSE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS, AND THEY ARE LEGALLY
DEFINED AS WETLANDS.
Q. THE FORESTRY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, ARE THOSE
INDUSTRY-RELATED ACTIVITIES WHERE A CERTAIN AMOUNT
OF TIMBER IS REMOVED FROM THE LAND, A CERTAIN
AMOUNT IS LEFT, A CERTAIN AMOUNT IS REPLANTED?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 418
A. IN SOME CASES, YES.
Q. OKAY. BUT IN ANY PLACES WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO
MAINTAIN NATURAL AREAS, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH,
LIKE, BMP'S FOR THOSE NATURAL AREAS? THAT WAS MY
QUESTION, REALLY.
A. WELL, WE HOPE TO DEVELOP SOME BMP'S RELATED TO --
THERE IS NO REASON THAT YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH
MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR WETLANDS SYSTEMS.
Q. SO, THIS IS SORT OF A UNIQUE IDEA AT THE CENTER
THAT HASNFT REALLY---
A. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF -- PROBABLY ONE OF THE AREAS
WE WOULD LIKE TO PURSUE.
Q. OKAY. OVER IN YOUR LETTER OF JULY 1990, AGAIN TO
MR. REED, YOU'VE SENT HIM A COPY OF YOUR FIRST
ANNUAL REPORT, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE GOING
TO QUANTIFY THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL, AND
DETERMINE IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES FOR THE
ECOSYSTEM. AND I GUESS I WOULD ASK YOU WHAT THE
IMPORTANT MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE
DEVELOPED FOR THE EVERGLADES ARE?
A. WELL, AS I -- THE INFORMATION I HAVE TO DATE, WE,
BASICALLY, IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES,
WOULD BE TO LOOK AT THE -- THE PRIMARY ONE WOULD
BE HOW TO REDISTRIBUTE THE WATER RELATED TO THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 419
SURFACE FLOW OF THESE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS. THAT
WOULD BE ONE AS RELATES TO SORT OF THIS LANDSCAPE
REVIEW.
Q. YOU'RE JUST BEGINNING THAT, THOUGH, AREN'T YOU?
A. WELL, I'VE COMPILED INFORMATION ON IT; I HAVEN'T
PULLED THAT ALL TOGETHER. AND THEN, IN TERMS OF
MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES, I THINK WE WILL TRY TO --
WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT PHOSPHORUS STORAGE
POTENTIAL, AND, AS IT RELATES TO MANAGEMENT OF
THESE SYSTEMS, I BELIEVE ONE OF THE IMPORTANT
ASPECTS WAS TO DETERMINE IF AND HOW LONG
PHOSPHORUS COULD BE STORED IN THOSE SYSTEMS,
AS I FELT THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT AREA TO TAKE A
LOOK AT.
Q. AND YOU'VE DECIDED HOW LONG CAN IT BE STORED?
A. WELL, I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT YEAR OR DATE ON HOW
LONG IT CAN BE STORED. IT SEEMS TO BE -- IF
IT'S -- I THINK I CAME UP WITH A FAIRLY INFORMED
APPROACH ON HOW TO BASICALLY LOOK AT PEAT
ACCRETION AND PHOSPHORUS STORAGE FOR THAT SYSTEM,
AND A MECHANISM THAT BASICALLY INDICATES THAT IF
YOU CAN MAINTAIN REASONABLE HYDROLOGY, YOU CAN
STORE IT FOR AN INFINITE LONG PERIOD OF TIME. I
CAN'T SAY EXACTLY HOW LONG.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 420
Q. HAVE YOU DONE THE MODELING FOR THE HYDROLOGY SO
THAT YOU COULD SAY TO THE DISTRICT THIS IS THE
PRECISE HYDROLOGY THAT YOU WOULD NEED TO USE WITH
THESE AREAS TO MAINTAIN THEM IN AT LEAST THEIR
CURRENT CONDITION?
A. WE HAVE STARTED TO DO SOME OF THAT MODELING.
Q. WHO IS DOING THAT MODELING FOR YOU?
A. I'M HAVING A STUDENT WORK PRIMARILY ON THAT
MODELING.
Q. WHICH STUDENT IS THIS?
A. WELL, IT'S A CO-STUDENT OF MINE AND DR. RECKHOW'S,
SONG.
Q. SONG. OKAY. WHEN WILL THAT WORK BE COMPLETED?
A. I'M NOT SURE. HE IS -- HE'S COMPLETED THE
LITERATURE REVIEW AND SOME DATA COMPILATIONS, AND
I THINK HE HAS DONE SOME FIRST OR SECOND CUTS ON
SOME OF THE DATA.
Q. OKAY. WHAT MODEL ARE YOU GOING TO USE FOR THIS?
A. WELL, RIGHT NOW, THE FIRST CUT ON IT IS MORE OF A
BEYSIAN STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AS IT RELATES TO THE
ACTUAL WATER QUALITY DATA, AND THE HYDROLOGY, AND
THE INPUTS AND OUTPUTS, AND FOR THE SPECIFICS OF
THAT. I COULD GIVE YOU SOME TERMS, BUT IT
WOULDN'T MEAN A WHOLE LOT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 421
Q. NO, YOU CAN DO THAT, BUT I WOULD ASK YOU TO PLEASE
DO IT IN LAYMAN'S LANGUAGE. I MEAN, I IMAGINE
THERE IS A SPECIFIC HYDROLOGIC MODEL THAT YOU
WOULD NEED TO USE.
A. WELL, WE'RE DEVELOPING A HYDROLOGIC MODEL---
Q. YOU'RE GOING TO BUILD YOUR OWN MODEL---
A. --- AND THEY'RE DEVELOP---
Q. --- FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT?
A. NO, NO, FOR A SPECIFIC COMPONENT. WE ARE
DEVELOPING SOMETHING FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA
2A, PRIMARILY.
Q. SO, YOU ARE DEVELOPING A WATER MODEL FOR 2A, THAT
YOU BELIEVE THAT IF THIS WATER MODEL WERE USED --
I MEAN, JUST SO I'M -- SO I MAKE SURE WE'RE ON THE
SAME WAVELENGTH -- 2A WOULD REMAIN, IN YOUR
OPINION, IN ITS PRESENT STATE. IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. THAT'S NOT THE OVERALL GOAL. THE GOAL OF THE
MODEL AT THE PRESENT STAGE RIGHT NOW IS TO TRY TO
UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HYDROLOGY AND
WATER QUALITY. AND THE SECOND PHASE, THE SPECIFIC
GOALS OF THAT MODEL, WHICH ARE TO BE DETERMINED --
THERE MAY BE ANOTHER PHASE -- REALLY ARE UNDER THE
DIRECTION OF DR. RECKHOW, NOT MYSELF.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 422
Q. OKAY. SO, THE FIRST PHASE IS YOU'RE STILL TRYING
TO SEPARATE OUT THIS ISSUE THAT YOU'RE NOT EVEN
SURE WE CAN SEPARATE OUT, HYDROLOGY AND WATER
QUALITY, IS THAT RIGHT?
A. WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME -- WE'RE TRYING TO TEASE OUT
SOME COMPONENTS WITH A LIMITED DATABASE THAT IS
AVAILABLE. WE'RE TRYING TO BASICALLY SEE IF
THERE'S A RELATIONSHIP, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN WATER
DEPTH AND WATER QUALITY, AND FLOW AND WATER
QUALITY, AND SOME OTHER ASPECTS OF THAT.
Q. SO, YOU'RE REALLY AT A VERY EARLY STAGE OF A
RESEARCH PROJECT?
A. FAIRLY EARLY IN THAT, YEAH. HE'S BEEN WORKING ON
THAT A NUMBER OF MONTHS, BUT---
Q. DO YOU THINK THIS WILL TAKE SEVERAL YEARS?
A. I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA. DR. RECKHOW WOULD HAVE A
BETTER IDEA, BECAUSE THE LAST FEW MEETINGS THAT
SONG HAS MADE UPDATES ON HIS PROGRESS, I HAVE NOT
ATTENDED; I HAVE BEEN AT DEPOSITIONS.
Q. DR. RECKHOWFS WORK THAT HE'S DOING ON THIS, DO YOU
BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL BE USED IN THESE PARTICULAR
PROCEEDINGS IF IT'S COMPLETED, PHASE TWO?
A. WHAT'S THE LAST PART, PHASE TWO? YOU'VE GOT ME ON
THAT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 423
Q. WELL, YOU SAID PHASE ONE WAS BEING DONE BY---
A. OH, PHASE TWO.
Q. --- SONG ON HYDROLOGY AND WATER QUALITY. YOU
HAVEN'T REALLY TOLD ME WHAT DR. RECKHOW IS DOING
ON PHASE TWO, I DON'T THINK; OR IF YOU DID, I
MISSED IT SOMEHOW.
A. I AM -- AS I SAID, I'VE MISSED -- WE HAD SOME
EARLY MEETINGS TO -- MY ROLE IN THIS HAS BEEN
PRIMARILY TO HELP SONG UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM,
AND TO PROVIDE WHAT DATA I COULD, AND TO HELP
HIM LOCATE SOME OTHER DATA.
DR. RECKHOW HAS BEEN PRIMARILY THE MODELING
PERSON FOCUSING ON THIS. AND I HAVE BEEN --
WELL, I'VE BEEN THERE SORT OF AS A -- AS AN
EXPERIMENTALIST AND AS AN ECOLOGIST, TO TRY TO
BASICALLY GUIDE THEM IN TERMS OF WHETHER THIS
MAKES ANY REASONABLE -- AS YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW,
REASONABLE SENSE. MODELERS CAN MAKE MODELS,
BUT THEY MAY NOT SIMULATE THE SYSTEM ACCURATELY.
Q. OH, I COULD SAY WITH SOME CERTAINTY THEY MAY NEVER
MAKE SENSE TO SOME OF US, BUT---
A. BUT, IN ANY CASE -- SO HE IS -- HE HAS MADE SOME
PROGRESS, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN THE LAST TWO
PRESENTATIONS, SO I DON'T---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 424
Q. SO, REALLY, THERE'S NOT LIKE TWO PHASES IN THE
SENSE THAT YOU DO ONE TASK, AND THEN THERE'S A
WHOLE SEPARATE SET OF TASKS. IT'S ALL THE
BUILDING OF THIS MODEL, AND YOU'RE JUST SIMPLY
DOING THE DATA INPUT AND THE ECOLOGICAL CONCERNS,
AND THEN DR. RECKHOW---
A. INTERPRETATION.
Q. --- IS GOING TO DO -- INTERPRETATION OF WHAT, THE
DATA?
A. WELL, INTERPRETATION OF WHICH DATA WOULD BE
APPROPRIATE, AND WHETHER IT MAKES ECOLOGICAL
SENSE.
Q. OKAY. WHICH DATA ARE YOU DIRECTING MR. SONG TO
IS IT DR. SONG OR MR. SONG?
A. MR. SONG.
Q. MR. SONG.
A. QIAN.
Q. MR. QIAN SONG?
A. NO -- WELL, IT WOULD BE QIAN SONG IN CHINA, BUT
IT'S SONG QIAN HERE.
Q. SORRY. MR. QIAN. WHICH DATA?
A. MOST OF IT COMES FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT'S FILES.
Q. ARE THEY IN THE SWIM PLAN?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 425
A. THIS DATA?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. SOME COMPONENTS OF IT ARE, I THINK.
Q. COULD I HAND YOU THE SWIM PLAN AND YOU COULD TELL
ME WHICH ONES YOU'RE DIRECTING HIM TO USE?
A. THE RAW DATA WOULD NOT BE, I DON'T BELIEVE, IN THE
SWIM PLAN.
Q. I'M HANDING YOU -- LET ME JUST PUT IT ON THE
RECORD -- THE SUPPORTING INFORMATION DOCUMENT AND
THE APPENDICES. TAKE YOUR CHOICE WHERE YOU THINK
THIS DATA MIGHT APPEAR.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. WELL, THE RAW DATA -- MY CURSORY VIEW OF THESE
DOCUMENTS---
Q. WELL, TAKE YOUR TIME, BECAUSE WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT
YOU'RE BUILDING THIS MODEL -- THE DATA YOU'RE
BUILDING IT FROM, BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT THIS IS
SOMETHING THAT WILL BE USED. AT LEAST FROM THE
NAMES YOU'RE NAMING AND THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT, I WOULD ASSUME THIS IS GOING TO BE USED IN
OUR SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDINGS ---
A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE---
Q. --- AND NOBODY'S SAYING NO AROUND THE TABLE,
SO ---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 426
A. --- TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IT WILL NOT BE. THIS IS
SOME---
Q. THEY'RE NOT SAYING NO, DR. RICHARDSON. THAT'S A
PRETTY GOOD SIGN, IT'S FREE AIM---
A. WELL, TO MY---
Q. --- THERE ARE CLUES HERE.
A. THIS PROJECT IS PRIMARILY BEING RUN, FIRST OF ALL,
AS A GRADUATE STUDENT PROJECT TO BASICALLY DO A
Ph.D. DISSERTATION ON---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- SO---
Q. WELL, I MEAN, IF MR. GREEN OR MR. BURGESS WANT TO
TELL ME THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TESTIFY FROM THE
BASIS OF IT, OR THAT DR. RECKHOW ISN'T GOING TO,
THEN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T NEED TO GO SO FAR DOWN
THIS ROAD---
A. WELL, I---
Q. --- THEY'RE LETTING ME CHASE A BLIND ALLEY, IS WHAT
IT LOOKS LIKE. BUT, ANYWAY---
A. IN ANY CASE, THE RAW DATA TO SUPPORT THIS IS NOT
HERE -- SOME OUTPUT DATA. THE ONE THING I DO
KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ONE OF OUR EARLY MEETINGS
WAS, I GAVE SONG A CHARGE, COULD YOU TAKE THE
ORIGINAL DATA FROM THE SWIM PLAN, APPENDIX B, FOR
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 427
EXAMPLE, LIKE, ON PAGE -- THIS IS NOT THE -- I'M
NOT GIVING YOU THE -- ANYTHING MORE THAN A TEST
THAT I GAVE HIM TO SEE IF HE COULD START WITH,
COULD YOU REPRODUCE, FOR EXAMPLE, ON PAGE B-148---
Q. I DON'T NEED HIS TEST. I NEED THE ACTUAL DATA,
DR. RICHARDSON.
A. BUT IT'S -- THE DATA'S NOT HERE.
Q. IT'S NOT IN THE SWIM PLAN?
A. NO. THIS IS THE OUTPUT; THIS IS NOT THE DATA.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. TELL ME WHICH DATA AT THE
DISTRICT YOU DIRECTED HIM TO USE, OR SUGGESTED
THAT HE USE, OR APPROVE THAT HE USE -- THE NAME
OF IT.
A. OH. THE DATA WOULD BE THE INFLOWS AND OUTFLOWS,
ALL OF THOSE FROM WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, THE
RAINFALL DATA.
Q. FROM 2A?
A. FROM 2A. ANY SURFACE WATER DATA THAT WE COULD
OBTAIN IN TERMS OF SURFACE WATER QUALITY; SOME OF
MY DATA THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE RELATED TO
THE---
Q. WHICH OF YOUR DATA?
A. SOME SURFACE WATER QUALITY. HE IS NOW PERUSING
THAT AT THIS POINT, I BELIEVE, BUT I'M NOT SURE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 428
WHAT HE'S GOING TO INCLUDE OR NOT INCLUDE OF MY
DATA.
Q. IS YOURS ORTHO? IS YOUR SURFACE WATER
ORTHOPHOSPHATE?
A. IT IS MOSTLY ORTHO.
Q. AND THEIRS IS TOTAL PHOSPHORUS FOR THE DISTRICT --
THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT?
A. I THINK IT'S BOTH, IN SOME CASES. THERE ARE
SOME -- IT'S BOTH. SO---
Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE? YOUR SURFACE WATER QUALITY,
ORTHOPHOSPHATE DATA. WHAT ELSE?
A. WELL, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ALL ASPECTS OF OUR
DATA. WE MAY LOOK AT SOME PORE WATER DATA. WE
MAY LOOK -- WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT ACCRETION
INFORMATION. SO, WE ARE TRYING TO BASICALLY GET
A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW WATER CONSERVATION
AREA 2A FUNCTIONS, AND SEE IF WE CAN DEVELOP---
Q. IS THIS PART OF YOUR -- ARE YOU GOING TO BASE PART
OF YOUR LANDSCAPE REVIEW ON THIS OR IS THIS A
SEPARATE -- TOTALLY SEPARATE ISSUE?
A. IT'S ONLY ONE PIECE. I DOUBT -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T
KNOW IF IT WILL BE FAR ENOUGH ALONG TO DO ANYTHING
WITH AT THAT TIME. AND THIS IS TRULY A Ph.D.
DISSERTATION.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 429
Q. WHAT PARAMETERS IS THE MODEL GOING TO TRY AND
PREDICT?
A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE CURRENT VERSION IS GOING TO
PREDICT. THAT'S UNDER DR. RECKHOW'S CHARGE. WE
ORIGINALLY -- I THINK THE ORIGINAL ONE THAT I TOLD
YOU WAS TO LOOK AT SURFACE WATER QUALITY IN
RELATIONSHIP TO WATER CHARACTERISTICS.
Q. DID YOU TALK ABOUT THE DEPTH AND FLOW?
A. DEPTH AND FLOW; INFLOW, OUTFLOW, RAINFALL.
Q. SO -- JUST SO I'M STRAIGHT, YOUR IMPORTANT
MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY
DETERMINED BASICALLY INVOLVE FOCUSING ON THE TYPE
OF RESEARCH AND THE TYPE OF MODELING THAT YOU
BELIEVE WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR THE MANAGEMENT
OF 2A, REALLY?
A. YES. IT'S GOING TO BE BASED, TO A LARGE DEGREE,
ON OUR -- WHEN WE FINISH OUR FIVE- TO SIX-YEAR
STUDY, WE EXPECT TO HAVE SPECIFIC MANAGEMENT
RECOMMENDATIONS THAT COULD INCLUDE, AS YOU KNOW,
FROM THE DOSING STUDY, WHAT MIGHT BE INAPPROPRIATE
RANGE OF VALUES. WE MAY HAVE THE EFFECTS OF MASS
LOADING, THE STORAGE CAPACITIES.
IT'S HOPED THAT WE WILL HAVE SOME HYDROLOGY
INFORMATION. AND IT IS ALSO -- AND, AS I
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 430
MENTIONED TO YOU, IT WAS HOPED TO HAVE A FIREWATER
NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY, WHICH WE OBVIOUSLY
HAVE NOT DONE AT THIS POINT, BUT I THINK THAT IS
CRITICAL TO UNDERSTANDING HOW TO MANAGE THESE
SYSTEMS.
Q. YOU SAID APPROPRIATE RANGE OF VALUES. FOR WHAT?
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
A. NUTRIENT VALUES, PRIMARILY, LOOKING AT BOTH THE
GRADIENT STUDY, THE FERTILIZER STUDY AND THE
DOSING STUDY, TO TRY TO PIECE TOGETHER THE
INFORMATION TO COME UP WITH WHAT I THINK WOULD BE
PREDICTIVE OR REPRESENTATIVE VALUES FOR HOW THE
SYSTEM RESPONDS TO THOSE, BOTH LOADS AND
CONCENTRATION.
Q. TOWARD WHAT GOAL, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. TOWARDS WHAT GOAL?
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. TO TRY TO DETERMINE, PROBABLY IN ONE CASE, A DOSE
RESPONSE; IN ONE CASE, TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE
LEVELS THAT WOULD CAUSE A CHANGE -- A SIGNIFICANT
CHANGE IN THE SYSTEM.
Q. BUT TOWARD WHAT GOAL? WHY DO WE EVEN CARE WHAT
LEVELS ARE COMING IN? I MEAN, I THINK BEFORE
LUNCH, WE CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT WE HAD
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 431
SOME AREAS THAT HAD CHANGED BECAUSE OF NUTRIENT
ENRICHMENT, BUT THEY HAD BENEFITS AND THEY HAD
VALUE AS HABITAT, AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE
ANYTHING NECESSARILY INAPPROPRIATE OR NEGATIVE
ABOUT THOSE. I MEAN, IT SEEMED TO ME FROM OUR
DISCUSSION THIS WAS OKAY, THAT A HUNDRED AND FIFTY
PARTS PER BILLION TOTAL PHOSPHORUS WAS COMING IN,
THAT IT HAD CAUSED CERTAIN CHANGES IN THE SYSTEM
AND SO WHAT?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
MR. BURGESS: I JOIN IN THAT TOO.
A. YEAH. I'M NOT SURE -- THE QUESTION. I DONFT
BELIEVE I SAID---
MR. BURGESS: "SO WHAT."
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) "SO WHAT"-;'
A. SO WHAT, OR A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION
WAS GOOD OR ANYTHING.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THOSE NUTRIENT LOADS NEED TO
BE REDUCED FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY?
A. I THINK I SAID FAIRLY CLEARLY THAT I THOUGHT THAT
I HAD RECOMMENDED EARLY ON THAT THE BMP SHOULD BE
PUT IN PLACE AND THAT PHOSPHORUS SHOULD BE REDUCED
TO AS LOW A LEVEL AS POSSIBLE TO THE SYSTEM, BUT
WHAT LEVEL THAT IS, I DO NOT KNOW.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 432
Q. OKAY. THAT'S THE -- SO LOWERING THE NUTRIENT
INPUT, YOU WILL AGREE, IS AN APPROPRIATE GOAL?
A. YES, I AGREE THAT'S A GOAL.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WE ARE IN DISAGREEMENT ABOUT IS TO
WHAT LEVEL IT SHOULD BE LOWERED.
A. I DON'T PARTICULARLY DISAGREE. I DON'T KNOW THE
ANSWER TO THAT AT THE MOMENT, BUT WHEN WE FIND OUT
WHAT WE THINK THE RANGE IS, WE MAY THEN BE IN
DISAGREEMENT. I'M NOT SURE. WE MAY BE IN
AGREEMENT.
Q. BUT I ALSO UNDERSTOOD YOU TO SAY BEFORE LUNCH THAT
YOU FEEL NO URGENCY OR IMMEDIACY TO OBTAINING THIS
ANSWER?
A. WELL, I EXPECT TO DO IT WITHIN THE TIME FRAME IN
WHICH THE ORIGINAL GRANT WAS SET UP. I DON'T
EXPECT -- THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS DOES NOT,
UNFORTUNATELY, BEND TO THE LEGAL SYSTEM VERY
EASILY. SO, AS WE GET INFORMATION ALONG THE WAY,
WE WILL PROVIDE IT WITH THE ESTIMATOR -- THE SORT
OF COMFORT INTERVALS WE HAVE AROUND IT, AND I
THINK WE HAVE DONE SO. WHEN WE DON'T HAVE IT, I
THINK THAT'S WHERE THE HESITANCY IS, AS IT WOULD
BE FOR MOST SCIENTISTS, IS SIMPLY GUESS AS TO WHAT
IT WOULD BE. SO, I THINK WE ARE MAKING EXTREMELY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 433
GOOD PROGRESS TOWARDS THIS.
Q. AND WHY IS IT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD
REDUCE THESE NUTRIENT INPUTS OR PHOSPHORUS --
SPECIFICALLY, PHOSPHORUS INPUTS TO, LET'S SAY,
WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, FOR EXAMPLE?
A. WELL, AS I THINK I SAID, TO 2A, YOU KNOW, AS I
SAID, I'M NOT SURE IF YOU REDUCED THEM
SIGNIFICANTLY, IT WOULD MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE IN
THE LONG RUN TO THE SYSTEM RIGHT NOW. I THINK YOU
COULD CONTINUE -- I THINK THEY SHOULD BE REDUCED
FROM THE SOURCE IN THE SENSE THAT THE AGRICULTURAL
COMMUNITY PROBABLY HAS THE ABILITY TO DO SOME OF
THAT, AND THEY COULD DO IT WITHIN SITE. AND
THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A VERY LARGE PUBLIC PERCEPTION
IN THE NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE IDEA
THAT, IN FACT, THESE SYSTEMS ARE BEING DISTURBED
BY THIS.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THESE SYSTEMS ARE DISTURBED BY THE
NUTRIENT INPUT?
I BELIEVE THERE IS SOME ALTERATION THAT TAKES
PLACE, YES.
Q. IS THAT A DISTURBANCE?
A. IT COULD BE CONSIDERED DISTURBANCE IN SOME CASES.
Q. DO YOU CONSIDER IT A DISTURBANCE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 434
A. YES. BUT, AS I MENTIONED, I DON'T THINK IT'S A
MAJOR PROBLEM. IT'S A MUCH -- IT'S A LOCALIZED
PROBLEM.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID TODAY
THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NUTRIENTS SHOULD BE
CONTROLLED AT THE SOURCE. IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. I BELIEVE THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS -- ONE OF THE
WAYS TO DO THAT IS TO CONTROL IT AT THE SOURCE.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVE LIMITED POSSIBILITIES
OF HOW TO DO THAT. THAT RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE
DONE.
Q. OKAY. IN YOUR OPINION, HAS THAT RESEARCH BEEN
DONE?
A. TO DO IT AT THE SOURCE?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. I'M NOT AWARE OF -- I KNOW OF SOME ONGOING
STUDIES, BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY ANSWERS THAT
HAVE COME OUT OF THAT RESEARCH.
Q. HAVE YOU DONE, IN THE PAST -- IN ANY OF YOUR
OTHER EXPERIENCE OR EVEN IN THIS, IN LOOKING AT
IT, HAVE YOU DONE ANY THOUGHT ABOUT ECONOMIES OF
SCALE WHERE IT MIGHT BE CHEAPER TO DO IT IN MAYBE
ONE LARGE AREA AS OPPOSED TO AT EVERY SOURCE
OUTPUT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 435
A. YES. I'M NOT SURE IF I UNDERSTAND, THOUGH. I
DON'T THINK I'D RECOMMEND THAT IT BE DONE AT EVERY
SOURCE, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EVERY FIELD. I'm
NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "SOURCE." DO YOU MEAN
EVERY SINGLE FIELD IT WOULD BE DONE AT, OR EVERY
SINGLE---
Q. WELL, WHERE DO YOU RECOMMEND? WHEN YOU SAY "AT
THE SOURCE," I GUESS I THINK OF THE INDIVIDUAL
LANDOWNER BECOMING RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DISCHARGE.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT REGIONAL TREATMENT SYSTEMS?
A. WELL, I THINK THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING
WITHIN REGIONS. IT COULD BE SOMETHING IN -- IF IT
WAS AN URBAN AREA THAT WAS DOING SOMETHING, THEY
WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A REGIONAL SYSTEM. IF IT WAS
AN AGRICULTURAL AREA, THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE
SOMETHING THAT WAS THERE.
ALL RIGHT. AND I ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED
THIS TO THE INDUSTRY---
MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.
Q. --- FOLLOWING YOUR INITIAL RECOMMENDATIONS EARLY
ON, BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU HAD RECOMMENDED THIS IN
THE VERY BEGINNING, DID YOU NOT?
MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.
MR. BURGESS: YEAH.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 436
MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM.
A. I THINK I SAID I RECOMMENDED THAT THEY LOOK INTO
BMP'S TO REDUCE THE SOURCE.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT I MEANT WHEN I SAID
YOU HAD RECOMMENDED IT. HAVE YOU CONTINUED OR AT
ANY TIME SINCE THEN RECOMMENDED IT AGAIN TO THE
INDUSTRY?
A. THE BMP'S?
Q. YES.
A. YES.
Q. AND YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED THAT THEY TRY TO CONTROL
THEIR NUTRIENTS AT THE SOURCE?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHAT HAVE THEY SAID?
A. THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO AS FAST AS THEY POSSIBLY
CAN.
Q. AND HOW DO YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE TRYING TO DO SO?
A. WELL, I BELIEVE THEY'VE STARTED MONITORING ALL
OF THEIR OUTPUT SITES SO THEY GET A BETTER HANDLE
ON THE FORMS AND SOURCES OF PHOSPHORUS. I BELIEVE
THEY'VE STARTED TO UNDERTAKE A SERIES OF RESEARCH
PROJECTS TO LOOK AT SOME REMEDIAL METHODS. I
THINK THEY ARE LOOKING AT WATER PUMPING AND
REROUTING OF WATER. I---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 437
Q. REGARDING WATER PUMPING AND REROUTING OF WATER,
DR. RICHARDSON, ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY WIDESPREAD
USE OF WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITHIN THE EAA?
A. I BELIEVE THERE MAY BE A NETWORK. I HAVE NOT
PERSONALLY SEEN THEM NOR HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH
THEM.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT CONTROL OF
THE WATER TABLE WITHIN THE EAA MIGHT BE ONE OF THE
PRIMARY BMPIS THAT THEY COULD USE TO CONTROL THEIR
NUTRIENT OUTPUT?
A. BY RAISING -- ARE YOU ASKING ME TO RAISE AND LOWER
THE WATER LEVELS WITHIN THE EAA? IS THAT WHAT---
Q. WELL, TO RAISE THEM AND NOT TO PUMP AS MUCH, NOT
TO DISCHARGE AS MUCH, TO PUMP AS LITTLE AS
POSSIBLE.
A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED AT
THAT. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW, BUT, I MEAN, THAT'S A
POSSIBILITY.
Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT MIGHT BE A MAJOR BMP THAT
COULD BE USED?
A. WELL, I THINK IF YOU -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THEY
ARE UNDER RESTRICTIONS. THEY CANNOT REDUCE FLOWS
BY MORE THAN A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE. SO, I THINK
THERE MUST BE A BOUND WHICH THEY CAN DO THAT ONLY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 438
IN WHAT THEY---
Q. SO, YOU THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT EXCEEDING
THEIR TWENTY PERCENT (20%), AND SO THEY ARE NOT
HOLDING BACK WATER?
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU KNOW, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I DON'T -- I'M NOT PRIVY TO ANY INFORMATION ON THE
EAA. I'VE NOT BEEN AT THE EAA IN -- OTHER THAN
PROBABLY BEING CLOSE, AND I'VE NOT BEEN IN THE
FIELD IN THE EAA IN MAYBE TWO YEARS.
Q. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE FIELD EVER IN
THE EAA?
A. MAYBE A HALF A DOZEN.
Q. SIX TIMES IN---
A. MAYBE. SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q. --- THREE AND A HALF YEARS? HAVE YOU EVER
DISCUSSED THESE WATER LEVEL RECORDERS WITH THE
INDUSTRY?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY ACTUAL BMPIS THAT YOU
KNOW FOR A FACT ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I THINK I WAS AT THAT MEETING,
THE SAGE MEETING WHERE SOME BMPIS WERE PROPOSED.
AND I, QUITE FRANKLY, CAN'T TELL YOU WHICH ONES
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 439
THEY WERE IMPLEMENTING AND WHICH ONES THEY WERE
PROPOSING TO IMPLEMENT. BUT THERE WERE A NUMBER
LISTED. I BELIEVE FOREST IZUNO MENTIONED AT ONE
OF THE MEETINGS -- I QUITE OFTEN GET
PRESENTATIONS, AS YOU KNOW, TO THE EVERGLADES
PROTECTION DISTRICT. AND HE QUITE OFTEN COMPLAINS
ABOUT FOLLOWING ME, I GUESS. BUT HE ALSO, THEN --
HE QUITE OFTEN TALKS ABOUT THE PROJECTS THAT HE
HAS AND SOME BMP'S AND MATERIALS AND THINGS
THEY'RE DOING.
Q. THESE ARE PROPOSALS, THOUGH. THESE ARE NOT THINGS
THAT YOU KNOW ARE ACTUALLY BEING IMPLEMENTED?
A. MY LAST UNDERSTANDING IS, IN A MEETING I MADE
AT A PRESENTATION I MADE IN NOVEMBER, HE WAS
THERE TALKING ABOUT -- THIS IS A RECOLLECTION
THAT HE HAD IN PLACE THESE RECORDERS AND THEY
WERE DOING COLLECTIONS, AND HAD BEEN DOING
COLLECTIONS.
Q. I WOULD LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT THAT WAS
PRODUCED AMONG YOUR FILES---
WITNESS: WOULD YOU LIKE THESE BACK?
MS. PONZOLI: SURE.
WITNESS: JUST GIVE ME SOME BREATHING
ROOM OVER HERE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 440
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. THIS IS A RESEARCH NEWS BULLETIN FROM OUR SCHOOL
OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW THE APPROXIMATE DATE OF THIS? I DONFT
THINK IT'S ON HERE ANYWHERE, THAT I COULD -- MAYBE
I JUST DIDN'T LOOK HARD ENOUGH, BUT I COULDN'T
FIND IT.
A. I DON'T KNOW. IT'S SEVERAL YEARS OLD.
Q. WOULD IT HAVE COME OUT IN 188, BECAUSE IT MENTIONS
THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED A THREE HUNDRED AND
THIRTY-ONE THOUSAND ($331,000.00) GRANT FROM THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
A. IT WOULDN'T BE '88, THEN.
Q. OKAY. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN '89?
A. I THINK IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETIME IN 189, AT
THE EARLIEST.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU MET WITH MR. WEDGWORTH IN LATE
SUMMER, VERY EARLY FALL OF 188, BUT YOU DIDNFT GET
YOUR GRANT UNTIL SOMETIME INTO 189?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. WHEN IN 189 DID YOU RECEIVE THE GRANT?
A. THE FIRST QUARTER -- SOMETIME IN THE FIRST
QUARTER. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 441
Q. OKAY. AND WAS IT FOR THIS AMOUNT? IS THIS AMOUNT
ACCURATE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE THIS ARTICLE?
MS. PONZOLI: LET'S MARK THIS AS
RICHARDSON NUMBER 7, IS IT?
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 7 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
A. DID I SEE THIS ARTICLE?
Q. DID YOU SEE IT WHEN IT CAME OUT?
A. YES.
Q. IS IT ACCURATE? WAS THE ARTICLE ACCURATE? DID
YOU READ IT BEFORE IT WAS PRINTED?
A. MARY MATTHEWS, WHO IS OUR PUBLICATION EDITOR,
WROTE THIS ARTICLE, AND HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH ME.
I MAY HAVE -- IN FACT, I THINK I DID -- I PROVIDED
HER SOME PICTURES. I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE THE MAP
CAME FROM, BUT I MAY HAVE ALSO PROVIDED THAT. BUT
SHE -- SHE BASICALLY WROTE THIS AS A NEWS ITEM,
WHICH SHE DOES FOR -- IF YOU LOOK AT OUR FORMS FOR
OUR POLICY CENTER ON ECONOMICS, AND OUR FORESTRY
CENTER, AND THE WHOLE SERIES OF OUR CENTERS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 442
Q. OKAY. IS THIS LIKE A DUKE PUBLICATION THAT
IS---
A. IT'S A QUARTERLY---
Q. --- SENT AROUND?
A. --- PUBLICATION FOR THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
Q. IS IT SENT AROUND TO THE ALUMNI?
A. IT'S SENT OUT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, TO THREE TO FIVE
THOUSAND PEOPLE---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- ALUMNI, CONTRIBUTORS, FRIENDS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. IT PRESENTS IN HERE THAT YOU HAVE SAID
THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING LET'S LOOK ON
THE FAR RIGHT COLUMN, THE MIDDLE THAT YOU'RE
GOING TO LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS
OF CHANGED HYDROPERIOD AND INCREASED NUTRIENT
LOADINGS, THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN QUANTIFIED.
THIS WAS IN '89.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER THREE MAJOR
QUESTIONS: WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS OF INCREASED
NUTRIENTS IN WATER PUT -- INPUTS ON THE NATIVE
PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS;
TWO, WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM NUTRIENT STORAGE
CAPACITY; AND, THREE, HOW CAN WATER MANAGEMENT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 443
BE IMPROVED. ARE THOSE STILL THE SAME QUESTIONS
THAT YOU'RE SEEKING TO ANSWER?
A. FOR THE -- THOSE COVER THE GENERAL OVERVIEW OF THE
QUESTIONS.
Q. AND I TAKE IT THAT, AT PRESENT, YOU ONLY PARTIAL
ANSWERS TO ANY OF THESE -- IS THAT ACCURATE -- THE
ONES YOU'VE GIVEN ME OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS?
A. RIGHT. I'M SURE WE'LL GET INTO MORE DETAILS ON
SOME OF THESE, BUT WE HAVE COLLECTED AND ARE NOW
SUMMARIZING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF INFORMATION,
ESPECIALLY ON THOSE QUESTIONS.
Q. WILL THERE BE ANOTHER REPORT, OTHER THAN THE '92
ANNUAL REPORT, THAT WILL HAVE MORE ANSWERS IN IT,
IN THE NEAR FUTURE?
A. NOT IN THE NEAR FUTURE. I MEAN, THERE WILL BE
SOME QUARTERLY REPORTS AS THEY'RE DUE, AND THERE
WILL BE SOME PUBLICATIONS THAT WILL BE COMING
FORTH.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THESE QUARTERLY REPORTS. I
REALLY HAVE A QUESTION ON THOSE. I HAVE A COUPLE
OF QUARTERLY REPORTS HERE THAT WERE PRODUCED AMONG
YOUR EXPERT DOCUMENTS, SO I WON'T BE PASSING THESE
OUT. THEY'RE JANUARY 1992 AND SEPTEMBER 1992.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 444
Q. THOSE WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. DO YOU
RECALL WHY?
A. I HAVEN'T THE FAINTEST IDEA WHY.
Q. WELL---
MR. BURGESS: WELL, I THINK -- FOR
THE RECORD, I THINK THAT I WROTE YOU A
LETTER, SUZAN, AND SAID THOSE ARE THE
LETTER -- THOSE ARE THE DOCUMENTS THAT
CURTIS HAS IDENTIFIED FOR ME AS CONTAINING
DATA, WHICH HE WILL CONSIDER IN FORMING HIS
EXPERT OPINIONS.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THE QUARTERLY REPORTS DON'T
CONTAIN DATA, DO THEY, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. VERY LITTLE. THEY WOULD HAVE MOSTLY UPDATES ON
PROJECTS THAT WOULD SAY THAT NUTRIENT SOIL SAMPLES
ARE CONTINUING TO BE ANALYZED, AND WE'VE COMPLETED
THE WATER SAMPLES. THEY WOULD -- THEY MAY HAVE A
FEW, WHAT I WOULD CALL, TIDBITS.
Q. ARE THEY -- ARE QUARTERLY REPORTS JUST MOSTLY,
LIKE, REPORT CARDS YOU SEND BACK TO THE CLIENT
I'M STILL WORKING ON YOUR PROJECT; THIS IS WHAT
I'M DOING?
A. BY AND LARGE. THERE MAY BE AN OCCASIONAL -- WELL,
IT DOES TWO THINGS FOR THEM. IT KEEPS THEM UP TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 445
WHAT WE'RE DOING ON PROJECTS. IT ALSO NOW -- AT
THE REQUEST OF THE EPD, I BELIEVE -- IN THE
QUARTERLY REPORTS, IT SAYS, IF WE GAVE ANY
PRESENTATIONS OR PUBLICATIONS, WE ARE TO INCLUDE
THOSE IN THE BACK. AND WE'VE TRIED TO NOW DO
THAT. SO, IT'S A LITTLE MORE FORMALIZED WAY
FOR THEM TO BE KEPT INFORMED OF WHAT'S GOING ON,
AS THE EPD HAS ASKED THAT THEY AT LEAST BE
NOTIFIED NOW BEFORE WE -- IF WE WERE GOING TO
MAKE PRESENTATIONS, THEY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW
ABOUT IT.
Q. I GUESS WHEN WE GET TO THOSE IN TIME, I WOULD ASK
YOU TO LOOK AT THEM AND SEE WHAT CLUES AS TO WHAT
YOU BELIEVE YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL YOUR CLIENTS,
BECAUSE THEY WERE PRODUCED AS EXPERT DOCUMENTS. I
ASSUME THERE'S SOMETHING -- SOME TIDBIT IS IN
THERE THAT I NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO, BUT I DON'T
KNOW. I'M -- THEY JUST -- THE TIDBITS WEREN'T
LEAPING OUT.
WHAT STUDIES ARE YOU DOING TO STUDY THE
EFFECT OF INCREASED WATER INPUTS ON THE NATIVE
PLANT COMMUNITIES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION
AREAS? THAT WAS UNDER NUMBER ONE, YOUR MAJOR
QUESTIONS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 446
A. WELL, WHEN WE ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED THIS PROJECT,
AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAD THE IDEA TO DO A
FIRE-WATER-NUTRIENT INTERACTION STUDY. AND SO
THERE WERE SOME IDEAS OF WHAT WE WOULD DO IN TERMS
OF PUTTING WATER INTO THE SYSTEM. ONE, IT BECAME
VERY COMPLEX. AND TWO, WE DECIDED TO LOOK AT
THESE PROBLEM AREAS AS INDIVIDUALS. IN OTHER
WORDS, LOOK AT, SAY, PHOSPHORUS AND NITROGEN.
AND, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, AS FATE WOULD HAVE IT,
AS SOON AS WE TOOK THIS PROJECT, FOR THE FIRST TWO
YEARS THAT WE WERE IN THIS PROJECT, WE HAD RECORD
DROUGHTS. WE HAD NO WATER. I WORKED IN TENNIS
SHOES. AND SO THE CONCEPT OF SETTING UP A
HYDROLOGY STUDY TO PUMP WATER INTO AN AREA THAT
HAD NO WATER TABLE WITHIN FORTY CENTIMETERS TO
SEVENTY CENTIMETERS OF THE SURFACE WAS PRETTY
UNREACHABLE.
SO, I DID ESTABLISH THE DISTURBANCE STUDY AND
SET THAT UP FAIRLY EARLY. AND THAT STUDY IS NOW
ONGOING. THAT'S THE RECOLONIZATION WATER DEPTH
STUDY. I SET UP THE FERTILIZER STUDIES, WHICH HAS
A WATER COMPONENT TO IT. AND WE DO HAVE PLANS TO
ACTUALLY -- WE HAVE THE DOSING STUDY, OF COURSE.
WE HAVE WATER BEING PUMPED AS A CONTROL INTO ONE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 447
SYSTEM COMPARED TO NO WATER BEING PUMPED. AND WE
HAVE FULL INTENTIONS TO GO BACK TO WHERE WE
STARTED AND LOOK AT WATER AND NUTRIENTS, AND
ESPECIALLY WATER INPUTS.
Q. ON YOUR DOSING STUDY, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO TURN
THAT INTO A STUDY THAT LOOKS AT HYDROLOGY, IN
ADDITION TO NUTRIENTS, BY CLOSING OFF YOUR
CHANNELS AND HOLDING THEM AT DIFFERENT WATER
DEPTHS?
A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF
RETROFITTING, BUT IT'S A POSSIBILITY, BECAUSE
THOSE ARE NOT -- THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE POSITIVE
PRESSURE -- IN OTHER WORDS, THEY KEEP WATER FROM
COMING IN, BUT IT -- I'M NOT SURE, IF THE WATER
GOES DOWN ON THE OUTSIDE, HOW -- THEY'RE NOT
TOTALLY SEALED, AND---
Q. HAVE YOU GIVEN THOUGHT TO DOING THAT?
A. WE'VE GIVEN SOME THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY -- WE
ACTUALLY HAVE -- IN PLANNING THIS SPRING -- SOME
THOUGHTS TO ACTUALLY DO A HYDROLOGY EXPERIMENT,
BUT NOT WITH THAT SITE. I'M NOT GOING TO TAMPER
WITH THAT SITE AT THE PRESENT TIME. IT'S BEEN SO
DIFFICULT TO GET GOING.
YOU JUST WANT TO KEEP IT GOING, HUH?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 448
A. I WOULD LIKE IT TO JUST KEEP FLOWING.
Q. TO JUST GO? ALL RIGHT. PHASE ONE, YOU WERE GOING
TO -- AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE -- REESTABLISH --
YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK FOR MEANS OF REESTABLISHING
SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE PLANTS, AND WATER
IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES THAT WOULD IMPROVE
WATER QUALITY. HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT?
A. WHERE ARE YOU NOW?
Q. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. "IN PHASE ONE OF THIS
PROJECT, RICHARDSON WILL LOOK AT FACTORS
RESPONSIBLE FOR CATTAIL EXPANSION AND MEANS OF
REESTABLISHMENT OF SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVE
PLANTS AND WATER IMPOUNDMENT AND RELEASE REGIMES
THAT WOULD IMPROVE WATER QUALITY AS WELL AS
MAINTAIN NATIVE SPECIES."
A. WE HAVE DONE PORTIONS OF THAT WHERE WE HAVE LOOKED
AT FACTORS RELATED TO CATTAIL. WE HAVE -- AS I
SAID, WE HAVE A VEGETATION EXPANSION STUDY. THE
FERTILIZER STUDY WAS AN ATTEMPT TO LOOK AT THAT.
SINCE WE HAVE THREE SITES REPLICATED WITH
DIFFERENT WATER REGIMES, WE FELT WE COULD GET A
HANDLE ON THAT. THE---
HAVE YOU FOUND A MEANS OF REESTABLISHING SAWGRASS
AND NATIVE PLANTS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 449
A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, WE HAVE -- IN THE GRADIENT
STUDY, WE HAVE THOSE TRANSECTS AND -- AND WE
HAVEN'T REMOVED THE VEGETATION. MOTHER NATURE
MORE, IN A SENSE, DID THAT BY FIRE AND FREEZING,
BUT WE HAVE BEEN MONITORING VERY CAREFULLY THE
REESTABLISHMENT OF SOME OF THOSE PLANT
COMMUNITIES. AND THE DISTURBANCE STUDY IS SET
UP TO HAVE KILLED BASICALLY THE NATIVE SEED
BANK, AND, THEN, BASICALLY TO DETERMINE WHAT
WOULD AFFECT THE REESTABLISHMENT OF PLANTS IN
THAT AREA.
Q. SO YOU'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH ON HOW TO
REESTABLISH SAWGRASS AND OTHER NATIVES PLANTS.
is---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---THAT FAIR?
A. YEAH, WE'RE STILL DOING RESEARCH. AND WE HAVE
SOME INFORMATION. BUT I THINK, AS I SAY, IN THE
NEXT PHASES OF THIS, OUR NEXT -- WE'RE NOW INTO
THE FOURTH YEAR OF A SIX-YEAR STUDY, SO WE WILL
START PULLING THIS INFORMATION TOGETHER.
Q. ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, I JUST WANT TO
MAKE SURE WHAT YOUR TESTIMONY IS ON FIRE AND
FROST. WHERE YOU HAVE FIRE AND FROST, AND THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 450
SEED BANK IS NOT DESTROYED, DO YOU BELIEVE -- OR,
IN YOUR OPINION, DOES THE CATTAIL COME BACK, OR
WILL SAWGRASS REESTABLISH THAT AREA? THE CATTAIL
SEEDBANK IS STILL THERE.
A. RIGHT. AND YOU SAY, NOW, IF YOU HAVE FIRE AND
FROST, OR---
Q. RIGHT. WE CAN TAKE THEM SEPARATELY. IF YOU HAVE
ONLY ---
A. WELL ---
Q. --- FIRE, WILL THE CATTAIL COME BACK?
MR. BURGESS: AT THE SAME TIME -- I
WAS GOING TO ASK YOU.
A. I THINK TO UNDERSTAND RECOLONIZATION OF ANY SITE,
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE
THE ORDER OF WHICH IT HAPPENS. IF YOU HAD FIRE
AND FROST, IT IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN HAVING FROST
AND FIRE---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- AND---
Q. AND WHICH IS WORSE FOR THE CATTAIL, IN YOUR
OPINION?
A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE WE'VE HAD A TEST OF BOTH OF
THOSE, BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS, WE HAD SEVERAL
SEVERE FROSTS, WHICH KNOCKED BACK THE CATTAIL.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 451
Q. IS IT COMING BACK? IS IT REGENERATING IN THOSE
AREAS?
A. TO SOME DEGREE, YES.
Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE CATTAIL IS
REGENERATING STRONGER THAN THE SAWGRASS?
A. INITIALLY, THE SITES WERE ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT
SAWGRASS AND MAYBE NINETY-NINE PERCENT. AND NOW
THEY ARE MOVING BACK TOWARDS FIVE PERCENT CATTAIL,
MAYBE MORE. WE HAVEN'T -- I HAVENFT SEEN THAT
DATA -- I HAVEN'T ANALYZED THAT LAST BIT OF DATA
THAT WE TOOK THIS SUMMER. I HAVEN'T SEE IT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WERE THEY BEFORE IN CATTAIL; WHAT
PERCENTAGE WERE THEY BEFORE?
A. THE SITES THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?
Q. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES).
A. ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT CATTAIL.
Q. THESE WERE AT THE FAR NORTHERN END OF WATER
CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. RIGHT.
Q. AND WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED BELOW? WHICH STRUCTURE
ARE WE NOW FINDING SAWGRASS WHERE WE ONCE HAD A
NEARLY COMPLETE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE,@
A. WELL, THESE ARE SMALL PLOTS, REMEMBER. I'M NOT
TALKING IN A HUGE AREA. I'M TALKING ABOUT NEAR
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 452
OUR STATION. SO, IT'S ON THE D-LINE. I WOULD
HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE DATA TO SEE WHICH
D-LINE.
Q. SO -- BUT AT THE TOP OF THE D-LINE, WE COULD FIND
SITES THAT HAD BEEN NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT
CATTAIL THAT ARE NOW NEARLY A HUNDRED PERCENT
SAWGRASS?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. I SAID IN 189 WHEN
THEY FROZE AND THEN BURNED, THE NEXT YEAR WE HAD
ALMOST A HUNDRED PERCENT SAWGRASS COME BACK. AND,
THEN, WE'VE ANALYZED THOSE SITES SINCE THAT TIME,
AND I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THE MOST RECENT DATA, BUT I
THINK THE SECOND YEAR THERE WAS AN INDICATION THAT
CATTAIL WAS COMING BACK IN AT SOME PERCENTAGE. I
DON'T REMEMBER THE PERCENTAGE.
OKAY. BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE NOW, IN 193, IN THOSE
SITES?
A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA.
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER?
I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU ONLY KNOW THE INITIAL RESPONSE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT. BUT I---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I JUST HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE DATA. I JUST
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 453
HAVEN'T HAD TIME.
Q. OKAY. I HAD A QUESTION THAT -- DO THESE SITES
DOMINATE THE REGION?
A. WHICH SITES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT---
Q. THE ONES THAT---
A. --- THE BURN SITES OR THE---
Q. WELL, NO, THE ONES THAT YOU'RE SAYING REGENERATED
IN SAWGRASS THAT PREVIOUSLY WERE A HUNDRED PERCENT
CATTAIL.
A. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT IN DETAIL. MY GUESS WAS
FROM THE AREA THAT BURNED, IT WAS ONLY A SECTION
OF THE D-LINE. WE ONLY LOST ONE SECTION. SO, THE
AREA THAT BURNED WAS ONLY A SMALL PIECE. SO I
DON'T BELIEVE THEY WOULD DOMINATE THE AREA.
Q. OKAY. SO, IF I INFER FROM THIS WHAT YOU -- WHAT
YOU WOULD SAY IS, THAT, IF YOU COULD HAVE A GOOD
FROST AND THEN GO IN AND BURN, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE
TO WHAT?
A. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT IF YOU -- THIS GIVES US
SOME INDICATION FOR THE FIRST TIME, IN AN AREA
THAT SHOWS SOIL NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, THAT, IN
FACT, YOU CAN MANAGE SOME OF THOSE SPECIES. IT
APPEARS, OBVIOUSLY, THE FROST KNOCKED THE CATTAILS
BACK---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 454
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- FIRST. BUT, ALSO, AS THEY MANAGE IN THE NORTH
WITH CATTAILS, YOU CAN BURN THEM ON SEVERAL
SUCCESSIONS. THERE ARE CERTAIN WAYS TO PROGRAM
THAT. THERE MAY VERY WELL BE WAYS IN WHICH YOU
CAN MANAGE THE CATTAILS AND PRODUCE SAWGRASS WITH
FIRE.
Q. IN THE EVERGLADES?
A. IN THE EVERGLADES.
Q. ON THOSE MUCK SOILS?
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. YOU COULD HAVE CONTROLLED FIRES THAT WOULD TAKE
OUT THE CATTAILS SUCCESSFULLY WITHOUT CAUSING THE
MUCK TO BURN?
A. WELL, THEY BURN SAWGRASS. WE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN
OUT THERE A NUMBER OF TIMES WHEN THE STATE WARNS
US. THEY BURN ALMOST CONTINUALLY. THE FISH AND
WILDLIFE SERVICE OF STATE OF FLORIDA BURN YEAR
AFTER YEAR. IN FACT, THEY FEEL, IF FIRE IS NOT
AN INTEGRAL PART OF THAT COMMUNITY, IT HELPS
RELEASE NUTRIENTS AND REGENERATE THE SAWGRASS, AND
SO FIRE IS A VERY INTEGRAL PART. AND SO I WOULD
SEE VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE OF BURNING SAWGRASS AND
CATTAIL.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 455
Q. DO YOU INTEND TO RUN EXPERIMENTS TO SEE IF THIS
IS, IN FACT, SUCCESSFUL?
A. THAT'S ONE OF THE HOPES WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IN THE
VERY NEAR FUTURE.
Q. ARE YOU GOING DO THAT IN 3B, 2B?
A. I'M NOT SURE WHERE WE'D DO IT. AND WE, OF COURSE,
WOULD NOT HAVE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO GAIN PERMISSION
TO DO THAT. WE WOULD NOT BE GOING OUT THERE
SETTING FIRES. I THINK THAT WOULD CAUSE GREAT
CONCERN FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
Q. I THINK YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT. I WOULD ADVISE YOU
TO CLEAR IT WITH SOMEBODY HIGHER THAN THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
MR. GREEN: BUT NOT AT THE TOP.
MS. PONZOLI: BUT NOT AT THE TOP,
YOU'RE RIGHT.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I HAD ONE MORE QUESTION ON THIS,
AND I'LIL LET IT GO. WELL, I HAVE TWO MORE
QUESTIONS. I'M SORRY. THERE'S ANOTHER ONE. I
HAVE A CONTINUING PROBLEM, DR. RICHARDSON, WITH,
WHEN YOU SAY YOUR PRIMARY GOAL IS TO MAINTAIN
BIOTIC DIVERSITY -- I'M GOING TO PUT ASIDE
ECOSYSTEM FUNCTION BECAUSE I THINK I KNOW WHAT
YOU'LL SAY -- BUT BIOTIC DIVERSITY IN THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 456
EVERGLADES AND AT THE SAME TIME MANAGE IT AS A
PERMANENT SINK FOR NUTRIENTS, AND I WOULD LIKE YOU
TO TELL ME HOW YOU BELIEVE THOSE TWO ARE
COMPATIBLE.
A. WELL, I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF SOME
MANAGEMENT REGIMES WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED. BUT, AS
I SAID BEFORE, I THINK FROM SOME OF THE WORK OF
DR. RADER, THAT THERE'S SOME INDICATION THAT THERE
IS AN INCREASE IN SOME COMPONENTS OF THE
ECOSYSTEM. AND IT RELATES TO THE FACT THAT
PHOSPHORUS AT CERTAIN LEVELS WOULD BE A SUBSIDY,
WHICH COULD CAUSE AN INCREASE. OUR STUDIES FROM
THE FERTILIZER STUDY FROM DR. VYMAZAL SHOWS THAT,
IN FACT, YOU GET CHANGES IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER
AND DIVERSITY OF SPECIES FROM THE PERIPHYTON. AND
WE MAY FIND THAT ON THE DOSING STUDY. SO, I THINK
IT HAS TO DO WITH THE -- OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT SOME RELATIVE CONCENTRATION AND THRESHOLD.
THERE'S NO -- AND, AS LONG AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
A NONTOXIC NUTRIENT MATERIAL, IN A HIGHLY STRESSED
ENVIRONMENT THAT IS LIMITED FOR THAT NUTRIENT,
YOU'LL GET AN INCREASE.
YEAH, BUT, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK THAT'S A VERY
TROUBLING ANSWER, AND LET ME TELL YOU WHY, BECAUSE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 457
DR. RADER'S WORK WAS IN OPEN WATER, ENRICHED
SITES, WHICH YOU TELL ME YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY, BUT
YOU WILL CONCEDE ARE VERY SMALL IN THE EVERGLADES.
AND A VERY SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SCIENTISTS
BELIEVE THAT THESE OPEN WATER AREAS ARE CLOSING IN
WITH THE CATTAILS THAT SURROUND THEM, SO THEY
DON'T EXIST FOR VERY LONG. SO, WHILE THEY MAY
HAVE A LOT OF MACROINVERTEBRATES IN THEM FOR THE
LIMITED PERIOD OF TIME THAT THEY'RE AVAILABLE TO
THIS SYSTEM, IT'S FAIRLY FAIRLY SHORT DURATION.
NOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM
WITH THESE OPEN WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSING IN?
IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT AS AN
ECOLOGIST IN THE EVERGLADES?
A. AM I LOOKING AT THE RATE AT WHICH THOSE OPEN SITES
ARE CLOSING IN?
Q. NOT EVEN JUST THE RATE, THE FACT THAT THEY CLOSE
IN. DO YOU ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE OPEN WATER,
WITH ENRICHED SITES HAVE A TENDENCY TO CLOSE IN
THE CATTAILS?
A. I HAVE NOT QUANTIFIED THE OPEN SITES CLOSING IN.
I'VE NOT LOOKED AT THAT.
Q. NOW, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QUANTIFYING AND
ESTABLISHING A RATE AND BEING AWARE OF A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 458
PHENOMENON. DO YOU AGREE?
A. YES, I THINK WE DID.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE OPEN
WATER, ENRICHED SITES CLOSE IN IN THE EVERGLADES
WITH THE CATTAILS AT SOME POINT? NOT AT SOME
RATE, NOT AT SOME RATE OF INCREASE. I'M NOT GOING
TO -- I HAVEN'T QUANTIFIED IT AND I DON'T KNOW
ANYONE WHO HAS. I JUST -- THAT IT HAPPENS.
A. RIGHT. AT SOME POINT, BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
"SOME POINT"?
Q. YES. I GUESS THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO GO OUT THERE
AND DO RESEARCH ON, IS WHAT THE RATE OF CLOSING IN
IS, AND, THEN, WE'LL HAVE THEM ALL CLOSED IN AND
WE'LL KNOW THE RATE.
MR. BURGESS: AND THAT'S EXACTLY HOW
HE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. HE HASN'T
LOOKED AT IT.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU NEED MORE RESEARCH. IS THAT
RIGHT?
A. WELL, I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT PARTICULAR
QUESTION.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT HAPPENS?
A. I BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THOSE AREAS TO DO
THAT. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 459
OPEN UP WITH FIRES. I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE
TO CREATE OPEN AREAS BY CHANGING THE WATER LEVELS.
MY POINT IS, I THINK THE SYSTEMS CAN BE MANAGED.
THEY ARE BEING MISMANAGED HORRIBLY AT THIS STAGE
FOR THE EVERGLADES PURPOSES. SO, I MEAN, I THINK
THAT WE CAN COME UP WITH SOME POSITIVE MANAGEMENT,
DEPENDING UPON THE GOALS THAT PEOPLE SET FORWARD
FOR WHAT THEY WANT. I THINK MY RESEARCH AND MY
TEAM'S RESEARCH WILL HELP PROVIDE SOME OF THAT
INFORMATION. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE END-ALL.
IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EVERY PIECE, BUT IT WILL
PROVIDE SOME INFORMATION, ESPECIALLY IF WE GET TO
DO THE THINGS I THINK THAT ARE APPROPRIATE, THAT
SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO.
Q. AND THOSE THINGS THAT YOU THINK ARE APPROPRIATE
AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YEARS AGO ARE TO OFFER
THE ENTIRE WATER SUPPLY TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. THE DISTRIBUTION PATTERN---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- TO STOP PUTTING WATER IN THE OCEAN; TO FLOW THE
WATER OVER THE SURFACE RATHER THAN MAKE IT POINT
SOURCES; TO---
Q. OVER THE EVERGLADES, TO PUT THE WATER OVER THE
EVERGLADES? A SHEET FLOW -- IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 460
SAYING?
A. TO ESSENTIALLY TRY TO REESTABLISH A NORMAL
HYDROPERIOD AND DISTRIBUTION OF THE WATER. IT IS
NOW A SERIES OF HOLDING PONDS.
Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY MODELING OF THE WATER OF THE
WHOLE SYSTEM?
A. I HAVE NOT PUT TOGETHER, IF YOU'RE ASKING, A
HYDROLOGIC MODEL OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM, NO.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE WHO IS?
A. THEY'RE -- I'M SURE THE DISTRICT AND SOME OTHER
PEOPLE ARE DOING THAT. I BELIEVE I WAS AT SOME
MEETINGS THAT CARL WALTERS ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER A
FIRST-CUT MODEL. HE'S AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
BRITISH COLUMBIA. AND HE PUBLISHED A -- ONE OF
THE FIRST PIECES ON THAT. I THINK TOM MacVICAR
WORKED ON SOME PIECES OF THAT AT ONE TIME.
Q. HAVE YOU WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A HYDROLOGIC
MODEL?
A. NO. I'VE NOT WORKED WITH MR. GHERINI ON A
HYDROLOGIC MODEL.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF HIS DOING ONE?
A. I BELIEVE HE'S DOING SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES
IN TERMS OF NUTRIENTS OR WATER OR SOMETHING, BUT I
AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HE IS DOING.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 461
Q. SO, YOU'VE OFFERED NO ADVICE IN THAT REGARD.
A. I HAVE OFFERED NO ADVICE. I MAY HAVE SUPPLIED
REPORTS TO HIM AND---
Q. YOUR ANNUAL REPORTS?
A. I BELIEVE SO. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I WOULD HAVE TO
GO BACK. I DON'T -- ACTUALLY, I'M NOT EVEN SURE
WE -- WE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE KEPT RECORDS TO ALL
THE HUNDREDS OF THOSE THINGS WE SENT OUT, BUT I
DON'T. SO I CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE -- YOU KNOW,
PEOPLE WRITE THE CENTER AND ASK FOR ONE, AND LISA
COMES AND SAYS WE HAVE TO, UNFORTUNATELY, PRODUCE
ANOTHER FORTY OF THESE HORRIBLE DOCUMENTS. SO, WE
MAY HAVE PRODUCED -- WE MAY HAVE PRODUCED FOR HIM
SOME DOCUMENTS, AND PROBABLY THE APPENDICES TO THE
DATABASE.
Q. DID YOU PROVIDE ANY DISKS OF WATER QUALITY DATA?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER OFFHAND. I'M PRETTY SURE WE
PROVIDED THE APPENDICES. WE MAY HAVE PROVIDED A
DISK. I'M NOT SURE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I'D HAVE
TO GO BACK.
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU CLEARLY DID NOT PROVIDE ANY
ECOLOGICAL APPROACH ADVICE?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
A. ANY ECOLOGICAL APPROACH ADVICE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 462
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, I MEAN, I THINK I'VE HEARD
YOU SAY SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS
THAT YOU APPROACH THESE THINGS AS AN ECOLOGICAL
ANALYST OR AN ECOLOGICAL -- OR A WETLANDS
ECOLOGIST, ETCETERA, ETCETERA, ETCETERA. AND I
THINK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN REGARD TO
DR. RECKHOWIS MODELING THAT -- AND SONG QIAN---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. --- QIAN SONG -- THAT YOU'RE PROVIDING ECOLOGICAL
INPUT. IS THAT RIGHT?
A. TO DR. RECKHOW?
Q. NO, NO, NO. TO DR. QIAN SONG -- SONG QIAN.
A. YES. I HAVE TRIED TO GIVE HIM A BETTER---
MR. GREEN: COULD WE GET THE RECORD
STRAIGHT ON THIS, PLEASE?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IT'S SONG QIAN?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT.
MR. GREEN: POOR SONG.
WITNESS: POOR SONG.
A. I HAVE TRIED TO HELP SONG UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS
OF THE EVERGLADES AND SOMETHING ABOUT PHOSPHORUS.
AND SO HE COMES IN QUITE OFTEN AND, YOU KNOW, ASKS
ME QUESTIONS, DOES THIS MAKE SENSE AND THIS MAKE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 463
SENSE, AND I PROVIDE HIM WITH WRITTEN MATERIAL AND
PAPERS TO READ AND SO FORTH.
Q. BUT YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED THAT TYPE OF ADVICE TO
MR. GHERINI.
A. I'M GETTING READY TO ANSWER THAT.
Q. OKAY.
A. NOT TO THAT DETAIL. THE ONLY ADVICE THAT I HAVE
DONE IS MAYBE OVER SEVERAL PHONE CALLS, BUT MOST
OF THAT WAS SIMPLY WHICH DATA SOURCES MIGHT BE
AVAILABLE. AND HE MAY HAVE ASKED ME A FEW
QUESTIONS, BUT NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THE DEGREE THAT
I'VE DONE WITH SONG.
Q. SO, YOU'VE HAD A FEW PHONE CALLS WITH MR. GHERINI
DISCUSSING DATA SETS?
A. CORRECT.
Q. I HAVE TO TELL YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK WHEN I
ASKED IF YOU WERE WORKING WITH MR. GHERINI, YOU
SAID NO.
A. WELL, I'M NOT. I DIDN'T EVEN PROVIDE THE DATA
SETS.
Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
A. I GAVE THEM TO LISA AND SAID JUST, YOU KNOW, GIVE
THEM OUR DATA. I DO THAT FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
Q. SURE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 464
A. I DON'T CONSIDER THAT, YOU KNOW, A GREAT---
Q. WORKING WITH HIM. ON THE TELEPHONE, WHAT DID YOU
DISCUSS?
A. HE'D ASKED ME, I GOT, I THINK, THE APPENDICES.
I'M NOT CLEAR AS TO WHAT THIS IS---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- WHAT IS IT? SO I BASICALLY TRIED TO TELL HIM
WHAT IT IS, SO---
Q. AND, THEN, WHAT ECOLOGICAL ADVICE DID YOU GIVE HIM
ON THE TELEPHONE AS TO HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS?
A. I TOLD HIM IT WAS COMPLEX. GOOD LUCK WITH HIS
MODEL. THAT'S TRUTHFULLY ABOUT WHAT I TOLD HIM.
Q. I COULD HAVE TOLD HIM THAT.
MS. PONZOLI: LET'S TAKE A BREAK FOR
FIVE MINUTES AND START AGAIN.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU READY?
WITNESS: I'M READY.
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. DR. RICHARDSON, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU, WE
ESTABLISHED IN THE LAST DOCUMENT THAT YOUR FIRST
GRANT FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS FOR
THREE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-ONE THOUSAND
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 465
($331,000.00), AND YOU SAID YOU'RE LOOKING FOR
THAT PROPOSAL FOR ME, THAT LISA PHELPS MAY BE ABLE
TO LOCATE IT. IS THAT RIGHT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. IF YOU DO FIND THAT, I'D APPRECIATE IT;
AND ALSO THE JANE RAIKES GREENHOUSE WORK. I
WOULD LIKE TO HAND YOU A LETTER TO MR. BARBER AND
ASK YOU IF THIS BASICALLY OUTLINES WHAT YOU
PROPOSED IN THAT PROPOSAL TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR
CANE LEAGUE?
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. YES, I'VE REVIEWED THIS. THIS IS A LETTER THAT I
SENT, MAY 9, 1989, TO ED BARBER, PRIMARILY
BRINGING HIM UP TO SPEED ON SOME OF THE ACTIVITIES
FROM THAT FIRST GRANT. A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION
IS STAFFING AND ORGANIZATIONAL. AND IT RELATES
TO, AS IT SAYS IN THE FIRST PART, TRYING TO
ESTABLISH WHICH, UNFORTUNATELY, NOW BECOMES
CONFUSING BUT AT THAT TIME I WAS REFERRING TO
THAT AS A GRADIENT -- AN EXTENDED GRADIENT MIGHT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 466
BE A BETTER WAY TO PUT IT -- A GRADIENT ALL
THROUGH 2A AND 3A.
Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GRADIENT AND AN
EXTENDED GRADIENT?
A. WELL, AS I SAID, THAT'S WHY I NO LONGER REFER TO
THAT. THE GRADIENT STUDY, THE ONE THAT I REFER TO
AS WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A; HAD NOT BEEN SET UP
AT THAT TIME. THIS WAS SORT OF A REGIONAL
ANALYSIS OF THE AREAS THAT I COULD GET INTO.
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.
Q. THIS IS WHERE YOU WENT INTO---
A. 3 AND 3 AND---
Q. --- 2 AND 3 AND DOWN NEAR THE PARK---
A. --- THE PARK.
Q. AND---
A. --- AND I WAS TRYING TO GET A HANDLE ON---
Q. SURE.
A. --- SURVEYING THE AREA FOR MY OWN EDIFICATION TO
DETERMINE WHAT WAS WHAT.
Q. I'M FAMILIAR WITH YOUR REGIONAL YOUR FIRST
REGIONAL EFFORT. IT WAS ONLY A VERY FEW CORES---
A. VERY FEW CORES---
Q. --- THAT WERE PULLED.
A. ---SOME PRELIMINARY WATER SAMPLES. IT WAS JUST
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 467
FOR ME---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND MY PEOPLE TO GET SOME IDEA RATHER THAN TO
TRY TO RELY ON---
Q. YOU REFER ON PAGE 2---
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, LET'S MARK THIS
AS RICHARDSON NUMBER 8, AND THEN WE CAN
TALK ABOUT IT.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 8 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
(BY MS. PONZOLI) WHILE SHE'S MARKING THAT,
DR. RICHARDSON, I HAD ONE MORE QUESTION ABOUT THE
MODELING. ARE YOU -- HAVE YOU GIVEN DATA TO A
MODELING EFFORT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND
UNDER A CASTANZA?
A. I HAVE NOT.
Q. YOU HAVE NOT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT MODELING GOING ON?
A. I HAVE HEARD FROM SOME PEOPLE THAT BOB CASTANZA
MAY BE DOING A MODEL.
Q. RIGHT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 468
A. I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT, NOR HAVE I DISCUSSED IT
WITH HIM IN ANY WAY.
Q. OKAY. THE SECOND PAGE, PARAGRAPH (C), "I HAVE
MADE TENTATIVE ARRANGEMENTS WITH ESP" -- IS THAT
ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES AND PERMITTING?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. "FOR HELPING US COLLECT A SECOND SET OF GRADIENT
SAMPLES DURING JUNE." THESE ARE THESE REGIONAL
SAMPLES---
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- THAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO?
A. CORRECT.
Q. DID THEY HELP YOU COLLECT THE FIRST SET OF
REGIONAL SAMPLES -- ESP?
A. I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME I WENT INTO THE FIELD
I WENT WITH SAM JOHNSON. SINCE THEY HAD -- I
THINK IT'S JOHNSON OR JOHNSTON. THAT WAS A PERSON
WHO WORKED FOR ESP. THEY HAD BEEN COLLECTING
SAMPLES IN THE FIELD, AND I'M NOT SURE OF THE
ARRANGEMENTS. I DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I
TALKED TO ED BARBER. BUT I SAID IT WOULD BE
HELPFUL IF, FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE COULD GO OUT
WITH SOMEONE WHO HAD ACTUALLY COLLECTED SOME
SAMPLES. AND SO THE FIRST TIME, WE MADE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 469
ARRANGEMENTS AND -- AIRBOAT ARRANGEMENTS -- I
MEAN, I COULD HAVE MADE THESE. BUT, LONG
DISTANCE, THEY WERE QUITE DIFFICULT TO GET
EVERYTHING -- I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHO TO CALL --
AND CONTACT WITH THE MICCOSUKEE INDIANS TO MAKE
SURE IF WE COULD, YOU KNOW, HAVE ACCESS TO WHAT WE
NEEDED. AND SO ES&P HAD A PERSON WHO HAD DONE
SOME OF THAT.
SO, ON THE FIRST TRIP, WE DID COLLECT SOME
WATER SAMPLES WITH THEM. WE BASICALLY COLLECTED
OUR OWN SAMPLES. THEY WENT ALONG AND PRIMARILY --
I DON'T BELIEVE THEY COLLECTED ANY SAMPLES. WE
BROUGHT OUR OWN SAMPLING CORES AND WATER SAMPLERS.
AND THEY MAY HAVE DONE SOME VEGETATION -- GENERAL
VEGETATION WORK AT THAT TIME. I DON'T REMEMBER
IT, BUT THEY DIDN'T -- WE BASICALLY COLLECTED OUR
OWN SAMPLES, AND TOOK THEM BACK FOR OUR OWN
ANALYSES. SO THEY PRIMARILY WERE LOGISTICS.
THEY PRIMARILY GOT US CONTACTS WITH THE AIRBOAT
PEOPLE.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 470
WITNESS: BACK ON THE RECORD.
A. OKAY, SO, ANYWAYS, ES&P HELPED US WITH THIS. AND
ALSO WITH THE -- I THINK THEY MAY HAVE MADE THE
ARRANGEMENTS, THE ORIGINAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR -- OR
THEY MAY HAVE HAD A HELICOPTER, AS I MENTIONED
HERE, BECAUSE THE AREA WAS SO DRY WE COULD BARELY
MOVE TO CERTAIN PORTIONS OF THIS.
Q. SAM JOHNSON WENT ON THE FIRST TRIP WITH YOU. YOU
AND CHRIS CRAFT AND SAM JOHNSON AND A HELICOPTER
PILOT -- IS THAT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE
FIRST HELICOPTER TRIP?
A. I BELIEVE SO. I -- THAT SOUNDS REASONABLE. I
CAN'T QUITE REMEMBER.
Q. OKAY. THE SECOND TRIP -- DID MR. LARSON GO WITH
YOU?
A. HE MAY VERY WELL HAVE.
Q. AND WAS HE DOING THE VEGETATION WORK AT THAT
TIME?
A. NO, NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. AT LEAST, HE DIDN'T DO
IT ON THAT TRIP. HE MAY HAVE BEEN DOING IT.
Q. DID MR. DAVIS GO WITH YOU?
A. NOW, THERE ARE SEVERAL DAVISES. YOU TALKING ABOUT
STEVE DAVIS OR JOHN DAVIS?
Q. JOHN DAVIS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 471
A. JOHN DAVIS WAS ALONG ON ONE OF THE EARLY TRIPS, I
REMEMBER, BECAUSE -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH -- IF
HE WAS IN THAT ONE OR NOT. I REMEMBER ONE
HELICOPTER TRIP THAT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT TRIP
BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WERE CRAMMED IN AND
CHRIS CRAFT GOT ILL, AND HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE.
AND---
Q. WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THAT TRIP.
A. --- AND HE -- AND WE HAD TO MAKE EMERGENCY
PROCEDURES.
Q. OUT THE WINDOW?
A. NO. WE LANDED. I THINK WE MADE IT. WE DID.
Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, YOU THINK -- HOW MANY EARLY TRIPS
WERE THERE?
A. THERE -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN, "HOW MANY
EARLY TRIPS." I MEAN---
Q. WHEN YOU SAID IN ONE OF THE EARLY TRIPS, AND I WAS
JUST WONDERING---
A. OH.
Q. ---HOW MANY EARLY TRIPS WERE THERE?
A. WE HAD ONLY---
Q. THESE ARE LIKE RECONNAISSANCE, ALMOST, TRIPS.
A. RECONNAISSANCE. WELL, THERE WAS ONLY -- TO MY
KNOWLEDGE -- ONE OR TWO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 472
Q. ALL RIGHT. WEFVE GONE UP -- SO WE WENT ON ONE
WITH SAM JOHNSON. NOW, WE'RE GOING ON ONE
POSSIBLY WITH JOHN DAVIS AND MR. LARSON AND CHRIS
CRAFT AND YOURSELF AND THE HELICOPTER PILOT.
THAT'S BEGINNING TO SOUND PRETTY CROWDED. WAS IT
A FOUR-PERSON HELICOPTER, OR SIX? COULD HAVE
BEEN---
A. IT COULD -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIX.
Q. A LONG RANGER?
A. COULD HAVE BEEN A LONG RANGER.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
A. WHEN YOU SAID "EARLY," I WASN'T SURE, BECAUSE I
CONSIDER ALL OF THESE EARLY TRIPS BECAUSE WHEN WE
WERE TAKING THEM, IT WAS EARLY IN THE PROJECT,
SO---
Q. SURE, SURE. DID MR. EARL GO ON ANY OF THESE TRIPS
WITH YOU?
A. LATER ON, WE HAD -- WHEN WE WERE ESTABLISHING SOME
OF OUR SAMPLINGS, WE HAD, I GUESS, THE -- AND I
DON'T REMEMBER THE CHRONOLOGY EXACTLY, BECAUSE
WE'VE GONE THROUGH SORT OF THE FIRST TWO. AND,
THEN, AFTER THAT, WE WERE ON OUR OWN. WE
BASICALLY---
Q. RIGHT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 473
A. --- TOOK OFF AND---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND MADE OUR OWN ARRANGEMENTS AND STARTED TO DO
OUR OWN ANALYSIS. WE SIMPLY WERE IN THE FIELD WAY
TOO MUCH AND HAD TOO MANY THINGS. WE NEEDED TO
HAVE OUR OWN OPERATING BASE. SO, DR. CRAFT AND I
WERE SAMPLING. AND I FORGET, AT SOME POINT, WE
WERE CONTACTED. I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER BY WHO, BUT
THEY WANTED TO BASICALLY COME ALONG AND SEE IF
THEY COULD -- MAYBE ED BARBER CALLED -- I CAN'T
REMEMBER WHO IT WAS -- OR SOMEBODY -- AND SAID
WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER WHO THE CONTACT PERSON
WAS -- COULD THEY GO ON A TOUR AND SEE WHAT WE
WERE DOING.
Q. THAT WAS MR. EARL.
A. MR. -- WHO CALLED ME? I'M NOT SURE WHO---
Q. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. WHO WENT WITH YOU?
A. YES. HE---
Q. THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING.
A. YES. HE -- ON ONE OF THE TRIPS, HE DEFINITELY
WENT WITH US. YES, THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. DID DR. PATRICK GO ON ONE OF THESE EARLY
TRIPS WITH YOU?
A. YEAH, I BELIEVE HE WAS ON THE SAME TRIP.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 474
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF DR. PATRICK GOING
WITH YOU ON THAT EARLY TRIP?
A. I THINK AS MUCH FOR HIM WAS CURIOSITY TO SEE WHAT
WE WERE DOING. HE WAS QUITE INTERESTED. AND I
THINK AT THAT TIME THEY WERE JUST CURIOUS AS TO
WHAT WE WERE GOING TO SET UP AND WHAT WE WERE
GOING TO DO. SO, AS DR. CRAFT HAS ALLUDED TO IN
HIS DEPOSITION, I BELIEVE, INCORRECTLY, HE AND I
BOTH COLLECTED SAMPLES THAT TRIP. I BELIEVE HE
TOOK FULL CREDIT FOR THE SAMPLING.
Q. DID HE INDICATE THAT HE WAS THE ONLY WORKER BEE ON
THE TRIP?
A. I THINK HE MADE THAT AS AN INCORRECT STATEMENT.
BUT, ANYWAYS, WE BOTH COLLECTED SAMPLES. AND, SO,
AS WE WOULD GO FROM PLACE TO PLACE, THAT BASICALLY
WE WOULD JUST LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
WANDERING AROUND LOOKING AT THINGS. SO, THERE WAS
LITERALLY -- IT WAS PRETTY MUCH A WORK TRIP FOR
CHRIS AND I. WE WERE COLLECTING SAMPLES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WAS DR. PATRICK, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, AT
THAT TIME A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. I DO NOT KNOW IF HE WAS A CONSULTANT AT THAT TIME.
HE MAY HAVE -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED -- I DO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 475
NOT KNOW WHETHER HE HAD ANY FORMAL -- I DO NOT
KNOW WHEN HE WAS FORMALLY -- I DON'T KNOW HIS
ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I REALLY
DON'T.
Q. WERE YOU ALREADY A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AT THAT TIME?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO AT THAT TIME.
MS. PONZOLI: ONE SECOND.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WAS THAT MID-1989 THAT THIS TRIP
WAS TAKEN?
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. DR. RICHARDSON, I HAVE A PRIVILEGED LIST THAT'S
BEEN PRODUCED BY MR. BURGESS.
MS. PONZOLI: WHY DON'T YOU GIVE
ME THOSE?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I GUESS WE CAN ATTACH THIS TO
THE DEPOSITION. I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING
TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY IT, BUT IT'S A PLEADING
IN THE CASE, OR IT'S AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT. I'D
LIKE TO POINT YOU TO THE FIRST ENTRY ON THIS
PRIVILEGED LIST PROVIDED BY MR. BURGESS TO THE
UNITED STATES. AND IT INDICATES ON THIS PRIVILEGE
LIST THAT THEY'RE HANDWRITTEN NOTES OF YOURS FROM
A MEETING WITH COUNSEL REGARDING LITIGATION
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 476
ISSUES, 1/12/89. SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WERE
YOU A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE
AT THIS TIME?
A. IT WOULD APPEAR SO FROM THIS INFORMATION.
Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, REALLY, FROM YOUR EARLIEST FORAYS
INTO THE EVERGLADES, YOU WERE ALREADY A CONSULTANT
FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
MR. BURGESS: WELL, LET ME JUST STATE
THAT I DID DO THIS PRIVILEGE LIST. I DID
FORMULATE THIS PRIVILEGE LIST. I DID DECIDE
THAT THAT DOCUMENT WAS PRIVILEGED. I WILL
REVIEW THE DOCUMENT IN LIGHT OF THIS
TESTIMONY TODAY. PERHAPS THERE IS SOME WAY
TO NAIL DOWN WHEN DR. RICHARDSON, IN FACT,
BECAME A CONSULTANT TO THE LEAGUE. BUT THIS
WAS MY DECISION, NOT HIS. I DON'T THINK YOU
CAN PREDICATE WHEN HE DID BECOME OR DID NOT
BECOME A CONSULTANT BY THIS DATE ON THIS
DOCUMENT. BUT I'LL EXAMINE IT.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. REID: THAT'S THREE YEARS AGO
TODAY.
MS. PONZOLI: THE DAY AFTER YOUR
BIRTHDAY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 477
MR. REID: RIGHT.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THEY DIDN'T KNOW. THEY
FORGOT THAT THEN.
MR. NEARHOOF: THAT'S FOUR YEARS AGO.
WITNESS: FOUR YEARS AGO.
MR. REID: OH, IT'S '93. THAT'S RIGHT.
TIME FLIES.
MS. PONZOLI: SHAVING YEARS ALREADY,
ARE YOU? ALL RIGHT.
(BY MS. PONZOLI) DID MR. DAVIS AND/OR MR. LARSON
MORE OR LESS SHOW YOU AROUND WATER CONSERVATION
AREA 2A OR THE EVERGLADES -- ORIENT YOU TO THE
EVERGLADES?
WITNESS: MR. DAVIS OR MR. LARSON?
MR. BURGESS: DR. DAVIS.
MS. PONZOLI: RIGHT. DR. DAVIS. I
APOLOGIZE.
A. I DON'T BELIEVE DR. DAVIS EVER DID. I BELIEVE
MR. LARSON, IN THE HELICOPTER TRIPS, MAY HAVE
SHOWN US. HE WAS MORE FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE
STRUCTURES. WE WANTED TO GET A HANDLE ON SOME OF
THE STRUCTURES. AND SO HE WAS ABLE TO ORIENT US
TOWARDS THE STRUCTURES IN THE VARIOUS PUMPING
STATIONS. MY INITIAL SORT OF ECOLOGICAL SURVEY OF
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 478
THE AREA WAS REALLY BENEFITTED BY SAMMY TIGERTAIL,
WHO WAS A MICCOSUKEE INDIAN, IN TERMS---
Q. WHEN---
A. --- TERMS OF -- HE WAS ACTUALLY THE BOAT -- AIRBOAT
DRIVER ON SEVERAL OF THE TRIPS. ARE YOU SMILING
AT SAMMY TIGERTAIL?
Q. WHEN IN 189 DID MR. TIGERTAIL TAKE YOU AROUND THE
EVERGLADES?
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
A. SAMMY TOOK ME AROUND, THE FIRST TRIP, WITH SAM
JOHNSON. ON OUR VERY FIRST TRIP, HE WAS THE
GUIDE, AND ALSO SAM JOHNSON, TO SOME DEGREE, AND
THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER PERSON FROM ES&P. I
CAN'T REMEMBER WHO THAT WAS. BUT -- AND THERE
WERE DR. CRAFT AND MYSELF. AND SO WE HAD -- YOU
KNOW, WE HAD SEVERAL PEOPLE TAKE US AROUND.
LARSON PRIMARILY---
Q. THAT WAS THE FIRST TRIP MR. TIGERTAIL WENT AROUND
WITH YOU?
A. YES. YOU KNOW, HE WENT TO SEVERAL TRIPS. WE
BASICALLY UTILIZED HIS SERVICES OVER SEVERAL TIME
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 479
PERIODS BECAUSE OF HIS -- THE AIRBOAT, HIS ACCESS.
I MEAN, THERE WAS NO PROBLEM TRAVELING WITH
MR. TIGERTAIL. WE COULD GO PRETTY MUCH WHERE WE
WANTED TO GO. NOBODY SEEMED TO BOTHER. THE
INDIANS HAVE A VERY FREE REIN IN THOSE AREAS, SO
THEY CAN GO PRETTY -- THEY KNOW THE AREA, THEY GO
PRETTY MUCH WHERE THEY WANT TO GO AND NOBODY
BOTHERS THEM.
Q. OKAY. THIS WAS A TRIP WHERE YOU WENT BY
HELICOPTER, AND THEN YOU GOT OUT AND WENT IN A
AIRBOAT---
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- ON A SECOND PART OF IT?
A. WELL, I THINK, FIRST, WE WENT -- THE ONE TIME WE
SIMPLY WENT STRICTLY BY AIRBOAT.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. IN FACT, SEVERAL TIMES WE WENT STRICTLY BY
AIRBOAT. BUT, THEN, THERE -- THE WATER GOT SO LOW
WE HAD TO GO BY HELICOPTER.
Q. RIGHT. OKAY. AND YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE TWO
EXPERTS -- THAT YOU HAVE CONTACTED TWO EXPERTS ON
AQUATIC PLANT CONTROL. WHO WERE THESE TWO
EXPERTS?
A. I'M SORRY. WHERE ARE WE NOW?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 480
Q. I'M SORRY. THE PARAGRAPH 4B.
A. 4B?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER AT THIS STAGE. I THINK I TALKED
TO -- AND I CAN'T BE POSITIVE -- I THINK I TALKED
TO JOHN GRACE AT LSU. AND I CAN'T---
Q. IS HE THE ONE REFERRED TO IN 5-2, LSU, WETLAND
SOILS GROUP?
A. NO, NO, NO, NO.
Q. OKAY. YOU THINK YOU TALKED TO JOHN GRACE?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE SECOND PERSON. I WOULD HAVE
TO GO BACK AND THINK ABOUT THAT. I DONFT
REMEMBER.
Q. IS IT JIM GRACE?
A. AH, JIM GRACE, YOU'RE CORRECT.
Q. YEAH, OKAY. DO YOU RECALL, DR. RICHARDSON, WHEN
YOU THINK YOU BECAME AN EXPERT? DO YOU HAVE A
MENTAL RECOLLECTION OF WHEN YOU WERE HIRED AS A
CONSULTANT FOR TliE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? YOU
REMEMBER WE WERE SORTING THAT THROUGH?
A. I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT RECOLLECTION, BECAUSE --
WHAT HAPPENED, IF YOU -- I WAS TRYING TO TELL YOU
IS, THAT EARLY ON THAT THERE WERE SOME OF THESE
I GUESS THE
MEETINGS THAT I ATTENDED RELATED
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 481
FIRST ONE I'D FORGOTTEN ABOUT WAS RELATED TO
LITIGATION. I ATTENDED A COUPLE OF THOSE---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND THE ESSENCE OF THOSE WAS RELATED TO WHAT I
WOULD BE DOING FOR RESEARCH, BUT THERE WAS SOME
LITIGATION, I GUESS, STUFF. IT WAS IN THE VERY
EARLY STAGES RELATED TO THIS CASE -- SORT OF
GENERAL INFORMATION.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. BUT IT BECAME VERY APPARENT VERY QUICKLY THAT I
WAS NOT GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN THAT COMPONENT.
GEORGE WEDGWORTH, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, STATED TO
ME ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS -- AND THAT WAS THE
WAY I WANTED IT -- THAT I WOULD NOT BECOME A
LITIGATION EXPERT EARLY ON, AND THEY WOULD HAVE TO
GO OTHER WAYS. SO, I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.
EVEN THOUGH I ATTENDED ONE OR TWO OF THOSE EARLY
MEETINGS, I CANNOT REMEMBER EXACTLY DOING MUCH OF
ANYTHING, OTHER THAN LISTENING AND GIVING A LITTLE
BIT 0F OVERVIEW WHERE WE WERE GOING.
OKAY. WAS MR. WEDGWORTH IN ATTENDANCE AT THOSE
MEETINGS?
A. SINCE -- WELL, HE WOULD -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I
THINK MR. WEDGWORTH HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION OF HOW
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 482
SOME OF THIS SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE. I
DON'T BELIEVE HE WAS IN TOO MANY OF THE MEETINGS
THAT I---
Q. WAS MR. EARL IN ATTENDANCE AT THOSE MEETINGS?
A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN.
Q. WHO ELSE WAS AT THESE MEETINGS? WAS MR. DAVIS?
A. I'M NOT SURE WHICH MEETINGS YOU'RE REFERRING TO,
NOW.
Q. DR. DAVIS. I'M SORRY.
A. NO, BUT WHICH MEETINGS, I MEAN?
Q. WELL, THESE EARLY LITIGATION MEETINGS.
A. WELL, AS I SAID, I DID NOT ATTEND VERY MANY OF
THESE. I MAY HAVE GONE TO ONE OR MAYBE TWO.
Q. RIGHT.
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q. RIGHT.
A. BUT---
Q. THAT'S OKAY.
A. --- FROM THAT SINCE WE WERE JUST STARTING THE
PROJECT, OR EARLY ON, THIS THING CAME INTO
EXISTENCE, I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER WHERE THIS
MEETING WAS, SO I CAN HARDLY REMEMBER WHO WAS AT
THIS MEETING.
WAS MR. -- WAS DR. DAVIS THERE, THOUGH, TO THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 483
BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION, AT ONE OR SEVERAL OF
THEM?
A. HE HAS BEEN AT SEVERAL THAT I HAVE BEEN AT, YES.
BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER IF HE WAS AT THIS MEETING.
I ---
Q. AT THE EARLY ONES.
A. --- I DON'T -- I DON'T EVEN---
Q. CAN YOU SEPARATE OUT THAT VERY FIRST MEETING IN
YOUR MEMORY, DR. RICHARDSON? EVEN IF YOU DON'T
REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS, CAN YOU SEPARATE OUT SOME
RECOLLECTION OF THE BODY OF PEOPLE WHO WERE
THERE?
A. I CANNOT.
Q. YOU CANNOT?
A. IN ALL HONESTY, I CANNOT.
Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON? WAS MR. LARSON AT THAT
MEETING?
A. I DON'T KNOW. HE COULD HAVE BEEN. I DON'T
REMEMBER, IN ALL HONESTY.
Q. OKAY. HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK WERE AT THAT
FIRST LITIGATION MEETING?
A. SINCE I CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS -- MY
RECOLLECTION ON SOME OF THESE MEETINGS, AND I
WOULD SAY THE FIRST ONE OR TWO, AS I SAID, AND I
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 484
CAN'T REMEMBER HOW -- SEE, I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT
WAS IN CLEWISTON OR WHERE IT WAS, SO I CAN'T -- I
WOULD SAY AT LEAST ONE THING -- AT LEAST, IN THE
EARLY MEETINGS, THERE WAS A MUCH SMALLER GROUP OF
PEOPLE. I MEAN, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TWO OR THREE.
I JUST DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. I'M WILLING TO BELIEVE THAT. EVERYTHING IN THIS
CASE WAS SMALLER. BUT YOU HAD BEEN HIRED AS A
CONSULTANT AT THAT TIME?
A. AT THE TIME OF THIS MEETING?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK MY FILES. THERE
WAS SOME POINT IN WHICH -- I WAS NOT HIRED AS A
LITIGATION PERSON AT THAT TIME; WAS NOT HIRED AS
AN EXPERT AT THAT TIME FOR ANYTHING RELATED TO
LITIGATION. FOR THE FIRST THREE-PLUS YEARS, I HAD
LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO WITH LITIGATION. I WAS
NOT PART OF THAT.
Q. YOU WERE A CONSULTANT FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. CANE LEAGUE.
Q. BUT YOU SAY THAT YOU JUST GAVE THEM ADVICE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT. AND WE HAD -- AS I SAID BEFORE,
GEORGE AND I HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS, AND I DID NOT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 485
WISH TO PARTICIPATE NOR DID I PARTICIPATE IN --
OTHER THAN SOME -- I GUESS , ON AN AS-NEED-TO-KNOW
BASIS FOR SOME THINGS, I DID NOT I THINK, AS I
SAID IN THIS FIRST MEETING, MAYBE WHICH I CAN'T
REMEMBER MUCH ABOUT IT. I CAN'T REMEMBER EVEN WHO
WAS THERE. THERE MAY HAVE -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW
WHAT THEY EVEN PLANNED AT THAT EARLY STAGE.
BUT---
Q. WELL, I DIDN'T ASK YOU WHAT THEY PLANNED. I JUST
ASKED YOU WHO WAS THERE.
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. BUT I WAS
NOT---
Q. WERE THERE LAWYERS THERE? THERE MUST HAVE BEEN
LAWYERS, IF IT WAS A LITIGATION MEETING.
A. I ASSUME SO.
Q. AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF THERE WERE LAWYERS
THERE?
A. WELL, OH, NO. I WOULD ASSUME THERE WERE SOME
LAWYERS THERE. OBVIOUSLY, IF IT WAS RELATED TO
LITIGATION, I ASSUME THERE WERE SOME LAWYERS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- BUT I WAS NOT -- AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER, IN
ALL HONESTY, I TRIED TO KEEP THAT PRETTY CLEAR,
THAT I DID NOT WANT TO BECOME INVOLVED WITH THAT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 486
COMPONENT OF IT. AND, AS I SAID, MR. WEDGWORTH
HAD, AT THAT TIME, CONCURRED FOR A NUMBER OF
YEARS.
Q. WHEN -- DO YOU REMEMBER TAKING THE NOTES?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING THE NOTES WHEN YOU WENT
THROUGH YOUR DOCUMENTS?
A. NO.
Q. WHO FOUND THE NOTES?
A. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT MYSELF. I
DID NOT HAVE -- SOME OF THOSE FILES, BECAUSE OF
THE VOLUME OF MATERIAL, I DID NOT SIT DOWN AND GO
THROUGH EVERY SEIEET OF PAPER.
Q. SURE. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IN REGARD TO YOUR
RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. WEDGWORTH AND HIS EFFORTS TO
KEEP YOUR SCIENCE IN A CERTAIN POSTURE, FOR HOW
LONG AFTER THE BEGINNING OF 1989 DID THAT GO ON?
THERE HAD TO COME A SPLIT. THERE CAME A SPLIT AT
SOME TIME, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT MR. WEDGWORTH LEFT
THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND THERE WAS SOME
INTERNAL DIVISION AT THAT POINT. WHEN DID---
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- YOU BECOME AWARE OF CHANGES IN THE WAY THAT YOU
WOULD BE HANDLED AND/OR THIS DIVISION OF THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 487
COOPERATIVE AND MR. WEDGWORTH FROM THE FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. WHEN GEORGE LEFT THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, YOU ARE
CORRECT, THERE WAS A DIFFERENT TENOR INTO THE
ORGANIZATION. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN HE
LEFT. I BELIEVE IT WAS IN f9O SOMETIME.
Q. IN 1990?
A. I BELIEVE IT WAS SOMETIME IN 1990.
Q. OKAY.
A. I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. EARLY 190?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN HE LEFT, BUT IT
WAS -- THINK -- I BELIEVE IT WAS 190, I THINK.
BUT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LEAGUE DID NOT
CHANGE. I DISCUSSED THIS WITH ANDY RACKLEY AND
WITH PHIL PARSONS AND SOME OTHER INDIVIDUALS.
THIS MATTER WAS DISCUSSED IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR
NOT I WOULD BECOME INVOLVED WITH THE LITIGATION
COMPONENT.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. MY POSITION HAD NOT CHANGED ON THIS. THERE WERE
INDIVIDUALS, I TliINK, IN THE ORGANIZATION WHO HAD
DIFFERENT POSITIONS ON THIS IN TERMS OF MY
INVOLVEMENT, WHETHER I SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T. SOME
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 488
WERE STILL FOLLOWING GEORGE'S LINE. I DON'T HAVE
THE SPECIFICS OF WHO WAS WHAT. BUT, ANYWAYS, WE
CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSIONS FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL
YEARS, THAT I WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE IN A DIRECT
WAY WITH THE LITIGATION OTHER THAN THROUGH THE
LEAGUE IN A -- AN ADVISORY ROLE. NOW, THERE MAY
BE ONE EXCEPTION TO THAT.
Q. WHO'S THE ONE EXCEPTION?
A. I BELIEVE WHEN I WROTE A REVIEW RELATED TO
WALKER'S PIECE OF INFORMATION, AND SOME OTHER --
I THINK A MEETING OR TWO RELATED TO THAT. BUT,
ESSENTIALLY, I STILL---
Q. SO, YOU DID CONTINUE TO ATTEND LITIGATION MEETINGS
FROM TIME TO TIME?
A. VERY FEW.
Q. MAYBE TWO TIMES A YEAR?
A. AT MOST, TO MY RECOLLECTION.
Q. WHEN, IN YOUR MIND, DID YOU BECOME A LITIGATION
EXPERT?
A. THAT WAS DISCUSSED THIS LAST YEAR. AGAIN, THERE
WAS SOME QUESTION OF -- I, OBVIOUSLY, WAS TRYING
TO DO AS MUCH RESEARCH AS POSSIBLE AND KEEP MY
HEAD LOW IN THIS PARTICULAR OPERATION. AND SINCE
THE INFORMATION WAS PUBLIC, AND SINCE THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 489
INFORMATION WAS OF VALUE TO THIS CASE, IT BECAME
APPARENT THAT, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, THIS WAS NOT
GOING TO BE THE CASE -- SO CAME TO SOME AGREEMENT
ON THAT. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN THE DATE
WAS, BUT I THINK IT WAS THIS LAST YEAR.
Q. BUT YOUR CONTRACT DIDN'T CHANGE? I MEAN, YOUR
CONTRACT, CONSULTING FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, JUST CONTINUED ON AN HOURLY, DAILY
BASIS---
A. ON A PROJECT---
Q. --- THAT IT ALWAYS HAD?
A. --- PER-PROJECT BASIS, WHATEVER THEY ASKED ME TO DO
IN TERMS THAT WE CONTINUE TO DO SOME OF THAT,
YEAH.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU EVER DISCUSS MR. WEDGWORTH'S
DEPARTURE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND,
I GUESS TO SOME EXTENT, A DISASSOCIATION, I WOULD
ASSUME, WITH MR. WEDGWORTH -- WITH HIM PERSONALLY?
A. HIS LEAVING THE LEAGUE?
Q. WELL, I MEAN, DID YOU SPEAK WITH MR. WEDGWORTH ON
A CONTINUING BASIS ABOUT YOUR RESEARCH WHILE HE
WAS STILL WITH THE LEAGUE?
A. OH, YES. FROM TIME TO TIME, I WOULD -- HE WOULD
CALL ME UP AND SAY, HOW ARE THINGS, AND HOW ARE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 490
THINGS GOING---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND WHEN HE WAS WITH THE LEAGUE AT THE EQC, HE
WOULD ATTEND THOSE MEETINGS AND---
Q. WASN'T HE CHAIRMAN OF THE EQC?
A. HE WAS CHAIRMAN.
Q. RIGHT.
A. AND MR. WEDGWORTH COMES TO ALMOST ALL PUBLIC
PRESENTATIONS. I DON'T THINK THAT I HAVE BEEN IN
SOUTH FLORIDA AT A DISTRICT MEETING OR A PUBLIC
MEETING THAT HE HAS NOT ATTENDED. SO HE WOULD
JUST -- HE WOULD ALWAYS -- HE WAS VERY CORDIAL,
SAY HI AFTERWARDS AND TALK. SO WE HAVE KEPT IN
SOME CONTACT.
Q. BUT DID THE CONTACT BREAK TO SOME EXTENT WHEN HE
LEFT THE LEAGUE?
A. WELL, I HAD LESS CONTACT WITH HIM, YES. I HAD
LESS CONTACT WITH HIM, ALTHOUGH, HE -- I HAD LESS
CONTACT WITH HIM. I WOULDN'T SEE HIM IN THAT
CAPACITY. BUT HE---
UH-HUH (YES). SO I TAKE IT YOU TWO NEVER
DISCUSSED THIS BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU BY TELEPHONE
OR OTHERWISE?
A. DISCUSSED?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 491
Q. THE FACT THAT YOU WOULD NOT CONTINUE IN THAT MORE
INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WHERE HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE
ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY COMMITTEE AND YOU WERE DOING
GRANT RESEARCH UNDER THAT COMMITTEE. YOU NEVER
DISCUSSED THAT WITH HIM?
A. MAYBE YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION IN TERMS
OF -- MAYBE -- DID WE DISCUSS -- WELL, GIVE ME THE
QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE. MAYBE I'LL -- I'LL TRY
TO---
Q. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE TRICKY. I JUST---
A. NO, NO. I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.
Q. --- I JUST -- IT JUST SEEMED TO ME THERE WAS A
WORKING RELATIONSHIP FOR A PERIOD OF TIME THAT
BROKE OFF, TO SOME EXTENT. AND MAYBE TO SOME
EXTENT REESTABLISH ITSELF DOWNSTREAM. IS THAT
ACCURATE?
A. I WOULD SAY THAT'S ACCURATE. HE IS THE HEAD OF
THE CO-OP. AND, SO, HE BASICALLY -- WE HAD
CONTACTS UNDER HIS, I GUESS, CHAIRMANSHIP OR
WHATEVER HIS -- PRESIDENCY OF THE CO-OP. WE'D
HAVE THAT.
Q. WELL, I THINK WHAT I'M CONFUSED ABOUT IS, IS THAT
YOU NEVER DISCUSSED THIS WITH MR. WEDGWORTH. YOU
HAVEN'T SAID YOU NEVER DISCUSSED IT, BUT---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 492
A. WHEN YOU -- WELL, "THIS" -- THAT'S WHAT I WAS
TRYING TO CLARIFY.
Q. THE "THIS" IS THE LEAVING OF THE LEAGUE AND THE
CEASING TO BE CHAIRMAN OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL
QUALITY---
A. AH, YES.
Q. --- COMMITTEE AND THE CEASING TO HAVE A---
A. YES.
Q. --- CONTINUING RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU---
A. YES, YES.
Q. --- AND IT'S MY IMPRESSION THAT---
A. YES.
Q. --- MR. WEDGWORTH IS A VERY COURTEOUS PERSON---
A. YES.
Q. --- AND WOULD HAVE PROBABLY DISCUSSED IT AT SOME
LEVEL WITH YOU AT SOME POINT.
A. THAT'S TRUE.
Q. OKAY. WHEN DID THAT CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE OF THAT CONVERSATION,
OBVIOUSLY. I DON'T REMEMBER -- I DON'T---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- REMEMBER WHEN HE LEFT BECAUSE I COULDNFT
REMEMBER---
Q. OKAY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 493
A. OKAY. WE HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- PASSING IN THE HALLWAY; HE MAY HAVE CALLED ME.
I CAN'T REMEMBER. ONE, I GUESS, HE TOLD ME HE WAS
LEAVING THE LEAGUE, AND I WAS -- I WAS AWARE OF
THE FACT HE HAD BEEN HAVING SOME DIFFICULTIES WITH
HIS HEART, AND HE TOLD ME SOMETHING RELATED TO, I
BELIEVE -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE DETAILS --
RELATED TO HIS HEALTH, AND THAT WAS ONE AVENUE. I
DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THE SPECIFIC DETAILS. HE
DIDN'T GO INTO GREAT DETAIL ON THAT. AND, THEN,
HE WAS STEPPING ASIDE FROM THAT. AND I BELIEVE HE
ALSO MENTIONED THAT HE WOULD BE DOING MORE WORK IN
THE FUTURE STRICTLY THROUGH THE CO-OP AND THAT HE
WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THE RELATIONSHIP, IF WE
COULD, THROUGH THE CO-OP.
Q. SO, THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT MR. WEDGWORTH GAVE
YOU FOR HIS LEAVING WAS REALLY A HEALTH-RELATED
EXPLANATION?
A. WELL, HE ALSO MENTIONED THE FACT THAT HE DID NOT
LIKE ALL THESE LEGAL ACTIVITIES. HE HAS A FAIRLY
HIGH DISDAIN FOR LAWYERS.
FOLLOWING UP ON THAT, WHAT WERE THE LEGAL
ACTIVITIES THAT HE DID NOT LIKE FROM THESE PEOPLE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 494
HE DISDAINED?
A. HE DID NOT REALLY ELABORATE. HE SAID IT WAS
BECOMING A VERY CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THAT HE THOUGHT
COULD BE SETTLED BY SCIENCE. I THINK GEORGE HAS
ALWAYS FELT THAT SCIENCE, IF BROUGHT TO BEAR --
THE RIGHT SCIENCE, COULD ANSWER SOME OF THESE
QUESTIONS, BUT THAT THE LEGAL PROFESSION PRIMARILY
OBFUSCATED THE ISSUE. AND THAT, IN FACT, AS FAR
AS HE WAS CONCERNED, I THINK, IS -- ABOUT THE ONLY
OTHER COMMENT I HEARD HIM EVER MAKE RELATED TO
THAT WAS THAT LAWYERS PRIMARILY TELL YOU WHAT YOU
CAN'T DO AND WHY THIS AND BASICALLY DELAY THINGS
FOR AD INFINITUM, AND HE WAS NOT PARTICULARLY
PLEASED BY THAT.
Q. DID HE EVER TIE THAT TO ANY PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS
OR JUST THE GENERIC CLASS OF LAWYERS?
A. MOSTLY AS -- I THINK AS HE PUTS IT, AS A CLASS. I
DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH, BUT I
BELIEVE AS A GENERAL CLASS.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT ABOUT THE EXTENT OF YOUR
CONVERSATION?
A. ON THAT MATTER, YES.
Q. OKAY. YOU SAY THAT THE TENOR, OR THE TONE OF THE
LEAGUE CHANGED AFTER MR. WEDGWORTH AND THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 495
COOPERATIVE LEFT AND HE NO LONGER WAS HEAD OF THE
ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY COMMITTEE. HOW DID IT
CHANGE?
A. WELL, WE HAD A NEW PERSON AS THE HEAD OF IT. AND
I THINK THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE RESEARCH
ACTIVITIES THAT WOULD BE VIEWED BY THAT GROUP
CHANGED.
Q. OKAY. WHO BECAME HEAD AFTER MR. WEDGWORTH?
A. I BELIEVE ONE OF THE FANJUL. I THINK IT'S ALEX
OR---
Q. OKAY. AND, THEN, HOW DID THE RESEARCH CHANGE?
A. MY RESEARCH DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL. BASICALLY,
THEY'VE KEPT PRETTY MUCH AN OFF-HANDS POLICY OR
HANDS-OFF POLICY ON MY RESEARCH---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- BUT BASICALLY A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING OF THAT
RESEARCH.
Q. OH, OKAY. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO MISQUOTE
YOU. HOW DID THE UNDERSTANDING CHANGE?
A. WELL, ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT FROM SOME EARLY
PRESENTATIONS AT THE EQC AS TO WHAT WE WERE DOING
TO LATER PRESENTATIONS, THE QUESTIONS WERE OF A
SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING LEVEL. AND I
THINK THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE PRIMARY AREAS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 496
AND, ALSO, I THINK AT THAT TIME, THERE WAS LESS
INTEREST IN THE RESEARCH AND MORE INTEREST IN --
SINCE MY WORK WAS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO
LITIGATION -- MORE INTEREST IN, AT THAT TIME,
OTHER TYPES OF RESEARCH. SO I STARTED HAVING LESS
CONTACT WITH EQC.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY THERE WAS A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING
LEVEL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
A. GEORGE ASKED VERY GOOD, TOUGH QUESTIONS. HE
UNDERSTOOD HOW THINGS WORK, AND---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. ---HAS A BACKGROUND AS A SOILS PERSON AND AS AN
AGRONOMIST, AND SO HAS AN -- AND HAS READ
EXTENSIVELY. SO, HE UNDERSTANDS THE SYSTEM QUITE
WELL. SO, HE WOULD ASK A NUMBER OF VERY GOOD
QUESTIONS.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND AS WERE SOME OTHER INDIVIDUALS THERE. BUT I'M
PRINCIPALS WHO RUN THE EQC,
SAYING IN TERMS OF THE
LET'S SAY THAT MR. FANJUL DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME
UNDERSTANDING OF ECOSYSTEMS AND ENVIRONMENTS.
Q. WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE.
A. YES.
Q. MR. WEDGWORTH HAD BEEN RAISED THERE AND---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 497
A. YES, HE -- RAISED THERE; HE GREW UP -- YES.
Q. SURE, SURE. ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU INVITED TO LESS
EQC MEETINGS FROM THAT POINT ON?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. BEFORE THEN, YOU HAD GONE HOW OFTEN?
A. NOT KEEPING TRACK OF THEM, I WOULD SAY MAYBE I WAS
ATTENDING THREE PER YEAR, MAYBE FOUR. I'M NOT
SURE.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, IT'S HARD TO SAY
BECAUSE, AS I SAID, I DON'T KEEP TRACK. I WOULD
BE IN SOUTH FLORIDA, SO THERE WOULD BE A MEETING
AND THEY WOULD CALL AND SAY, ARE YOU GOING TO BE
HERE. WOULD YOU COME FOR AN HOUR AND EXPLAIN
WHERE YOU ARE AT THIS POINT, OR SOMETHING.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. SO, IT HAS DROPPED OFF IN NUMBER. I CAN'T GIVE
YOU THE EXACT NUMBER. IT MAY BE TWO PER YEAR. IT
MAY BE THREE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. BUT AT ONE
POINT, THERE WAS -- WHEN GEORGE AND WE -- STARTING
EARLY AND WHEN WE WERE WORKING, THERE SEEMED TO BE
MORE OF THOSE EARLY ON THAN THERE WERE LATER.
THEY BECAME, I THINK, VERY BUSY WITH OTHER
ACTIVITIES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 498
Q. WERE THESE OTHER RESEARCH PROJECTS THAT THEY WERE
DOING?
A. THAT ONE WAS MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I WAS IN THE
HALLWAY.
Q. WELL, NOW, DID THAT BECOME A PROCEDURE, ONCE THERE
WAS THE SHIFT IN THE EQC, THE HALLWAY BUSINESS --
OR HAD THAT EXISTED PRIOR TO THE CHANGE IN THE
CHAIRMANSHIP?
A. I AM -- NO. WHEN -- I THINK THE VERY FIRST TIME I
WENT TO EQC, I WAS LEFT STANDING IN THE HALLWAY
FOR A WHILE BECAUSE THEY WERE DISCUSSING BUSINESS
MATTERS. THEY DIDN'T KNOW ME, AND I WAS INVITED
IN FOR MY TIME PERIOD AND I LEFT.
Q. OKAY.
A. AND SO THAT'S A -- I THINK IT'S A STANDARD
PROCEDURE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S---
A. THEY PROVIDE NO CHAIRS, BY THE WAY.
Q. I ASSUMED THAT. NOW, I THOUGHT MY EMPLOYER WAS
BAD. RICHARDSON NUMBER 8 -- LET'S GO TO PAGE
NUMBER 2.
A. WHICH DOCUMENT ARE WE ON, WHICH ONE ARE WE ON,
NOW?
Q. RICHARDSON NUMBER 8, PAGE NUMBER 2. YOU'RE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 499
TALKING ABOUT PHASE II WILL INCLUDE A
COMPREHENSIVE GIS ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION,
SOIL NUTRIENT SORPTION CAPACITY, CATTAIL
MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES, AND PEAT ACCRETION RATES AS
EFFECTUATED BY NUTRIENT INPUTS. IS THIS THE
LANDSCAPE BUSINESS THAT YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT
TODAY? IS THIS WHAT'S GOING ON?
A. NO.
Q. THIS WAS SOMETHING DIFFERENT?
A. YES. REMEMBER---
Q. DID YOU DO THIS?
A. NO.
Q. THIS WAS NEVER DONE?
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. WHY?
A. WE -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, WITH PHASE II, WHICH
ACTUALLY TURNED OUT, MY RECOLLECTION, TO BE THE
FIRST EPD PROPOSAL, HAD A FAIRLY EXTENSIVE CATTAIL
EXPANSION. WELL, WHAT IS LISTED THERE AS ONE OF
OUR GOALS BECAUSE, EVEN THOUGH I AT THE TIME
DIDN'T THINK CATTAILS -- CATTAIL EXPANSION WAS THE
KEY ISSUE, AFTER MY HALF A YEAR OF MOVING THROUGH
THE EVERGLADES, WHEN THAT WAS PRESENTED TO THE --
WHEN THAT PROPOSAL WAS PRESENTED TO, I BELIEVE,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 500
THE EPD, THAT'S WHEN TOM MacVICAR MADE HIS
STATEMENTS REGARDING, I BELIEVE -- I DON'T WANT TO
MISQUOTE HIM -- BUT IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR IN MY MIND
THAT THE CATTAIL ISSUE WAS NOT -- THIS WAS NOT THE
PUBLIC ENTITY AND THIS WAS NOT THE CORRECT USE AND
THAT THE DISTRICT DID NOT FEEL CATTAILS WERE THE
PROBLEM AT THE TIME. AND SO THAT PARTICULAR
COMPONENT -- THE GIS -- WHICH I THOUGHT WAS
IMPORTANT TO DO, AND THAT THAT WAS NOT DONE.
Q. THAT WAS THE -- THAT WAS -- IS THAT YOUR FIRST
PROPOSAL -- EPD, FIRST PROPOSAL---
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- IN 1990?
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU -- IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY THAT
BASICALLY IT WAS MR. MacVICAR WHO DEEP-SIXED
THAT?
A. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION OF THAT, YES, THAT AT THAT
PARTICULAR MEETING, IT WAS -- THERE WERE SOME VERY
STRONG STATEMENTS MADE ON THAT. AND ALSO I THINK
IN THAT PROPOSAL, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WE HAD
PROPOSED TO STUDY THE HOLEYLAND. AND WE HAD
STARTED ACTUALLY UNDER THE PILOT STUDY TO LOOK AT
PIECES OF THE HOLEYLAND. WE HAD ACTUALLY TAKEN A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 501
FEW SAMPLES IN THE HOLEYLAND, AND IT WAS ALSO MADE
VERY CLEAR TO ME AT THAT TIME THAT WE DID NOT WANT
THE HOLEYLAND STUDIED.
Q. WELL, NOW, WAS MR. MacVICAR DIRECTING YOUR
RESEARCH OR WAS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
DISTRICT AND MR. WEDGWORTH AND/OR MR. FANJUL AND
THAT COMMITTEE?
A. NO.
MR. BURGESS: WHOA, WHOA, WHOA.
Q. I MEAN, WHO WAS MAKING THE DECISIONS?
MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I'M SORRY. I
OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
A. IN TERMS OF ACTUAL WHAT'S DONE, I MADE THE
DECISIONS. BUT, IN TERMS OF PRESENTING MY
PROPOSAL, I WROTE MY PROPOSAL AT -- THAT WAS THE
FIRST FORMAL MEETING OF THE EPD. YOU HAVE TO
REALIZE THAT THAT WAS A NEW ENTITY, A NEW STATE
BODY. AND, AT THAT POINT, THE THERE WAS A
BOARD---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND GEORGE WEDGWORTH WASN'T ON THAT BOARD, NOR
DID HE HAVE REPRESENTATIVES ON THAT BOARD, TO MY
KNOWLEDGE. THERE WERE MEMBERS. THERE WERE
APPOINTED MEMBERS. I BELIEVE ART KIRSTEIN WAS THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 502
HEAD OF THAT BOARD, I BELIEVE.
Q. RIGHT.
A. BUT THAT BOARD, AT THAT FIRST MEETING, WHEN WE
MADE -- WHEN I MADE MY PRESENTATION, ESSENTIALLY,
TOM MacVICAR SAT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT BOARD AT
THE TOP OF THE TABLE AND SAID THAT HE FELT THAT
THIS PROPOSAL WAS PLACING WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS
ON CATTAILS AND THE HOLEYLAND. THAT'S MY
RECOLLECTION.
Q. OKAY. WHAT -- YOU KNOW WHAT I HAVEN'T COVERED
WITH YOU IS HOW WE GET FROM THE EQC AND THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE OVER TO THE EPD---
A. WELL---
Q. --- YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.
MR. BURGESS: IN RESPONSE TO A
QUESTION. IS THAT A QUESTION?
MS. PONZOLI: NO, IT PROBABLY WASN'T
A QUESTION, MR. BURGESS. I CAN FRAME ONE,
THOUGH, EVEN AT THIS HOUR.
(BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU WERE FIRST EMPLOYED BY THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IS THAT RIGHT?
A. I HAVE -- DUKE UNIVERSITY HAD A CONTRACT WITH THE
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. DUKE UNIVERSITY. ALL RIGHT. THEN,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 503
SUBSEQUENTLY, YOUR RESEARCH CAME TO BE FUNDED BY
THE EPD?
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. AND I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT MR. WEDGWORTH IS THE
ONE WHO SET UP THE EPD?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HOW
THE EPD CAME TO BE FORMED?
A. WELL, I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL THE INTRICACIES,
BUT IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT IT WENT THROUGH
THE STATE LEGISLATURE IN FLORIDA, AND THAT IT
WAS---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE AND PUT INTO AS A
PUBLIC SUNSHINE-LAWED ENTITY FOR ENVIRONMENTAL
RESEARCH.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHO THE MAIN PEOPLE IN THE
AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY WERE WHO PROMOTED THIS
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT OR EVERGLADES
PROTECTION DISTRICT?
A. I HAD HEARD THAT THERE WAS THIS GROUP THAT DID
IT, BUT I WAS NOT FAMILIAR I WAS NOT INVOLVED
WITH THIS -- ANY OF THAT WORK. SO I DON'T --
CAN'T SAY WHO DID WHAT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 504
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE WERE? DO YOU HAVE
ANY IDEA WHO THE PEOPLE WERE?
A. WELL, I ASSUME THEY WERE PEOPLE RELATED TO THE
INDUSTRY, BUT I DON'T KNOW SPECIFICALLY WHO WENT,
WHO WROTE, WHO DID, WHO DRAFTED.
Q. OKAY. SURE.
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. HOW DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOUR WORK SHOULD BE DONE
THROUGH THE EPD, AS OPPOSED TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR
CANE LEAGUE? WHEN DID THAT IDEA FIRST EMERGE?
DID SOMEONE COME TO YOU AND SUGGEST IT, OR DID YOU
SUGGEST IT TO THEM? I MEAN, HOW DID THAT COME
ABOUT?
A. I BELIEVE ED BARBER TOLD ME THAT THERE WOULD BE A
NEW ENTITY -- A PUBLIC ENTITY THAT I SHOULD BE
VERY HAPPY WITH, THAT I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING IN
THE FUTURE TO APPLY TO THAT WOULD BE -- WOULD HAVE
ALL OF THE ASPECTS THAT I HAD BEEN WANTING IN
TERMS OF MAINTAINING A GRANT, AN INDEPENDENCE,
AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. THAT WAS THE -- THIS NEW
ENTITY. AND THAT, IN FACT, THE LEAGUE WOULD NO
LONGER DO THIS TYPE OF WORK. THEY WERE MOVING
INTO OTHER ACTIVITIES, AND THAT I SHOULD APPLY A
GRANT THROUGH THE EPD.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 505
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU DID CONTINUE THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS
TIME TO HAVE THIS SEPARATE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WHEREBY YOU RECEIVED
MONIES FOR DOING VARIOUS TASKS?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. THAT BEGAN IN '89 AND HAS CONTINUED THROUGH
THE PRESENT?
A. TO BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.
Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN DID THIS SHIFT OCCUR? DO YOU
REMEMBER?
A. WHICH SHIFT?
Q. FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE TO THE EPD.
A. I BELIEVE THAT TOOK PLACE, LIKE WELL, THE FIRST
FUNDING FOR THE EPD TOOK PLACE I BELIEVE WAS
APPROVED IN JANUARY OF '90.
Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU SUBMITTED YOUR
PROPOSAL?
A. OBVIOUSLY, SOMETIME IN THE FALL OF '89.
Q. HOW OFTEN DID THE EPD MEET?
A. IT USUALLY MEETS, IN MY UNDERSTANDING, ONCE A
MONTH.
Q. IT MET ON A MONTHLY BASIS? OKAY. LET ME SHOW YOU
AN EXHIBIT OF AN EPD MEETING THAT YOU'RE MENTIONED
AT. I THINK YOU HAD COPIES OF THIS IN YOUR FILES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 506
DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS DOCUMENT? CAN YOU IDENTIFY
THIS DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. GIVE ME A MOMENT TO PLEASE---
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. YES, THIS APPEARS TO BE ABOUT THE RIGHT TIME IN
RELATIONSHIP TO -- AS I THINK I JUST MENTIONED
EARLIER, THE PROPOSAL WAS SUBMITTED SOMETIME IN
THE FALL OF '89.
Q. OKAY. WAS THIS THE MEETING AT WHICH YOU BELIEVE
MR. MacVICAR INDICATED HE WASN'T INTERESTED IN
CATTAILS OR THE DISTRICT WASN'T INTERESTED IN
CATTAILS? YOU WERE AT THE MEETING WHERE
MR. MacVICAR SAID, WE DO NOT CONSIDER CATTAILS A
PROBLEM. IS THAT RIGHT?
A. I WAS AT THAT MEETING. AND, AS I SAID, I'M
NOT SURE THAT'S THE EXACT PHRASEOLOGY. I
BELIEVE -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE ANY WRITTEN
NOTES ON THAT. MY RECOLLECTION IS, I DIDN'T SAY
HE SAID IT WAS NO PROBLEM. I THINK HE SAID THERE
WAS AN OVEREMPHASIS IN THIS PROPOSAL TO STUDY
CATTAILS, AND HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE EMPHASIS ON
THAT.
DID HE ACTUALLY SEE YOUR PROPOSAL TO THE EPD? HE
ACTUALLY SAW THE ONE YOU WERE SUBMITTING?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 507
A. I'M QUITE SURE HE DID. I CAN'T SWEAR TO THAT. I
MEAN---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- HE SEEMED TO ASK QUESTIONS RELATED TO THAT, I
BELIEVE.
Q. I GUESS I'D LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR -- WHAT I
BELIEVE IS YOUR PROPOSAL THAT YOU'RE REFERENCING.
IT'S JANUARY 1, 1990, AMOUNT REQUESTED, SEVEN
HUNDRED AND THIRTY-TWO THOUSAND, SEVEN HUNDRED AND
FIVE ($732,705.00). IS THAT RIGHT? WELL, THIS IS
AN EXPERT DOCUMENT YOUR LAWYER'S GOT TO---
A. THAT'S PRODUCIBLE FOR ME?
Q. YEAH, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE ONE FOR YOU.
MR. BURGESS: ARE WE GOING TO MARK
THE MINUTES AS NINE, JUST SO WE STAY IN
SUCCESSION?
MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, LET'S MARK THE
MINUTES AS NINE.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL SEEING THESE
MINUTES, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I MAY HAVE. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THESE SINCE
AND THIS IS A LONG TIME AGO. I MAY HAVE. I MEAN,
I GET SO MUCH INFORMATION.
Q. THESE WERE PRODUCED FROM AMONG YOUR DOCUMENTS, NOT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 5O8
FROM MR. BURGESS' FIRM, BUT AMONG THE DOCUMENTS
PRODUCED BY THE DUKE---
A. I UNDERSTAND. AND THEY---
Q. --- CENTER.
A. --- I'M SORRY. TtiEY PROBABLY, AGAIN, CAME FROM
LISA'S FILES. WifEN SHE HAS SOME FILES RELATED TO
EPD, SHE FILES IT. AND SO I HAVEN'T -- YOU KNOW,
I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT IT IN AGES.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S MARK THOSE AS
RICHARDSON NUMBER NINE, AND LET'S MARK YOUR
PROPOSAL AS RICHARDSON NUMBER TEN.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENTS REFERRED
TO ABOVE WERE MARKED AS EXHIBIT
NUMBERS 9 & 10 - DR. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
WITNESS: THEY DIDN'T KNOW ME VERY WELL
THEN. THEY HAVE ME DOWN AS---
MR. BURGESS: DO YOU HAVE COPIES OF
THAT?
MS. PONZOLI: NO.
WITNESS: --- THEY MISSPELLED MY NAME.
MS. PONZOLI: I PROBABLY HAVE ONE FOR
HIM.
MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE CHANGING NUMBERS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 509
MS. PONZOLI: DID I CHANGE NUMBERS?
MR. REID: NINE WAS THE EXHIBIT ABOUT
ALL THE---
MR. BURGESS: SHE NEVER MARKED THEM.
MR. REID: --- PRIVILEGED DOCUMENTS.
MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK IT WAS EVER
MARKED.
MS. PONZOLI: WE DIDN'T ATTACH IT.
MR. REID: OH.
MS. PONZOLI: WE DIDN'T ATTACH IT.
MR. REID: THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO.
OKAY.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
MS. PONZOLI: WE CAN. I MEAN, DID YOU
REALLY WANT TO? I THINK---
MR. REID: NO.
MS. PONZOLI: --- WE'VE ALREADY DONE THIS
ONE AS NINE. WE ALREADY IDENTIFIED THIS ONE
AS NINE. ALL RIGHT. LET'S DO NINE AS THE
MINUTES.
WITNESS: NO, WE'VE ALREADY DONE THIS
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 510
ONE.
MS. PONZOLI: AND TEN.
MR. REID: THAT'S RIGHT. AND THIS IS
EIGHT.
MR. BURGESS: OFF THE RECORD.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
MS. PONZOLI: BACK ON THE RECORD.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IS RICHARDSON NUMBER TEN YOUR
PROPOSAL THAT WAS DISCUSSED AT THE MEETING WHERE
MR. MacVICAR INDICATED THAT, AT LEAST IN HIS VIEW,
THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT WAS NOT THAT
CONCERNED ABOUT CATTAIL EXPANSION?
A. THIS IS THE PROPOSAL. YES, I BELIEVE THAT I
DISCUSSED THAT. WHETHER I CAN ATTEST TO THE FACT
THAT THIS WAS THE EXACT MEETING, I DO NOT KNOW.
Q. OKAY. I UNDERSTAND, I UNDERSTAND.
A. IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANOTHER MEETING, BUT IT WAS ONE
MEETING.
OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WE NOW HAVE I THINK IN
TRUTH, THAT MR. REID WAS RIGHT. I THINK WE SHOULD
ATTACH THE PRIVILEGED LIST.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 511
MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO
TURN YOURS BACK TO YOU?
MR. REID: NO, THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. I THINK WE
SHOULD MAKE THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER ELEVEN.
MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M ALWAYS AHEAD OF
MY TIME.
MS. PONZOLI: YES.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 11- CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU EVER SEE THIS PRIVILEGED
LIST, RICHARDSON NUMBER 11, DR. RICHARDSON, BEFORE
IT WAS SENT TO UNITED STATES OR WAS THAT JUST DONE
BY YOUR LAWYER?
A. IT WAS DONE BY THE LAWYER, PRIMARILY. I THINK I
MAY HAVE GOTTEN A COPY OF IT YESTERDAY.
Q. OKAY. BUT---
A. I DIDN'T SEE IT BEFORE THEN.
Q. SURE. I'M GOING TO APOLOGIZE, BUT I HAVE TO DO
SOME JUMPING AMONG THE DOCUMENTS. SO I'LL TELL
YOU WHICH ONE I'M REFERENCING AND GIVE YOU MY
QUESTION AND ASK YOU TO BEAR WITH ME. YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 512
PROBABLY---
A. OKAY. WHICH ONES ARE WE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT,
8, 9, 10?
Q. WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT---
A. 9?
Q. --- 8 AND 11, FIRST.
A. 8 AND 11. I GRABBED THE WRONG TWO. OKAY.
Q. RIGHT. OKAY.
A. 8 AND 11. OKAY.
Q. IT'S SORT OF IN THIS WHOLE SERIES OF DOCUMENTS.
THEY'RE FEEDING TOGETHER. YOU REMEMBER IN
RICHARDSON NUMBER 8 THE PROPOSAL TO DO GIS
ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION, WHICH YOU SAID
WAS---
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- WAS PULLED BACK AND NOT DONE, AT YOUR
DECISION?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. WOULD YOU PLEASE LOOK AT RICHARDSON
NUMBER 11 AND TELL ME IF NUMBER 63 ON PAGE 7 IS,
IN FACT, A PROPOSAL TO DO THAT WORK?
MR. BURGESS: I CAN TELL YOU THAT
IT'S NOT. I DID THE WORK.
MS. PONZOLI: IT'S NOT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 513
MR. BURGESS: NO.
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. I DON'T REMEMBER EVER
SEEING A PROPOSAL TO DO THAT WORK.
Q. OKAY. OKAY. THIS DOES DAY IT'S BY ES&P. SO YOU
DID NOT SEND YOUR PROPOSALS THROUGH ES&P OR DO A
JOINT EFFORT WITH ES&P?
A. I DID NOT.
Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU---
A. I THINK THAT'S A YEAR EARLIER THAN THIS.
Q. WELL, IT IS; BUT, I MEAN, PIECING THIS WHOLE THING
BACK TOGETHER---
A. SURE.
Q. --- IS SIMILAR TO PIECING THE EVERGLADES BACK
TOGETHER. IT'S JUST ABOUT AS DIFFICULT.
I'D LIKE TO HAND YOU ANOTHER DOCUMENT
REGARDING GIS SATELLITE IMAGERY AND ASK YOU IF,
TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IT'S EITHER ONE OF THESE
EFFORTS?
MS. PONZOLI: IT'S -- WE'LL MAKE
THIS RICHARDSON NUMBER 12.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 514
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 12 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. HERE'S 102. CAN YOU
IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. 102.
Q. THIS WOULD BE RICHARDSON NUMBER 11.
MR. GREEN: NO, NUMBER 12.
MS. PONZOLI: 12. I'M SORRY. I'm
SORRY. I CAN'T COUNT.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I JUST -- CAN YOU IDENTIFY THE
DOCUMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. IT LOOKS LIKE A LETTER FROM CHARLES SCHOECH TO ME
IN '89, AWARDING THE PROPOSAL.
Q. OKAY.
A. THE REST OF THE DOCUMENTATION, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT
IT IS.
Q. WELL, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK BACK TO THE ERIM,
E-R-I-M, CORRESPONDENCE AND ASK YOU IF THIS IS
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 515
CORRESPONDENCE RELATED TO RICHARDSON NUMBER 8,
YOUR GIS ANALYSIS OF CATTAIL EXPANSION.
A. IS IT RELATED TO THIS?
Q. WELL, WAS THIS A PROPOSAL THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER,
AT YOUR REQUEST, FOR 5/1?
A. LET ME JUST LOOK AT THIS AND SEE WHAT HE SAID
HERE.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. WHILE HE'S
LOOKING, YOU SAID HIS REQUEST FOR 5/1.
WHAT WERE YOU REFERRING TO?
MS. PONZOLI: 5/1 IS IN RICHARDSON
NUMBER 8 ON THE SECOND PAGE---
MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: --- WHERE HE HAS TALKED
ABOUT HAVING ERIM DO REMOTE SENSING AND
GIS ANALYSIS.
MR. GREEN: RIGHT.
A. OKAY. THIS -- INITIALLY, I THINK YOU SEE FROM
I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER HERE -- 8, I HAD PROPOSED
THAT UNDER NUMBER 1 5(a)(1), IF YOU'RE WITH ME, ON
PAGE 2, ERIM, THAT THEY HAD AGREED TO WORK WITH US
TO ASSESS THE EXPANSION OF CATTAILS OVER BOTH TIME
AND AREA.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 516
Q. RIGHT.
A. OKAY. THE PERSON THAT WAS CONTACTED WAS ERIC
KASISCHKE, WHO WAS A RESEARCH SCIENTIST FOR ERIM.
OKAY?
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. SO I INITIALLY CONTACTED ERIC. AS I SAID, I THINK
YESTERDAY, I HAD HAD CONTACT WITH ERIM FOR -- WHEN
I WAS ON THE FACULTY AT MICHIGAN, SO I KNEW SOME
OF THESE PEOPLE, AND ASKED THEM IF THEY WOULD BE
INTERESTED TO WORK WITH US SINCE REMOTE SENSING
REQUIRES A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF EQUIPMENT AND
ALGORITHM SOFTWARE PACKAGES THAT TYPICAL --
TYPICALLY WE DO NOT HAVE AT DUKE---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND THAT I WANTED TO WORK WITH SOMEONE WHO
REALLY KNEW THE BUSINESS. SO THAT LETTER STARTED
OUT -- BASICALLY, I THINK I TALKED TO HIM.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. THIS LETTER IS ACTUALLY TO PAUL LARSON, NOT TO ME.
THAT'S---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- FROM ERIC.
Q. RIGHT.
A. AND WE STARTED OUT ON SORT OF A TRACK. AND THAT'S
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 517
MY LETTER TO BARBARA, WHO WAS SAYING -- I THINK IT
WAS BARBARA -- SAYING THAT I HAD CONTACTED THEM
AND THEY WOULD AGREE TO BE INTERESTED TO CONSIDER
DOING THAT WORK.
Q. DID THEY DO THAT WORK?
A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, YES, THEY DID DO THAT WORK.
Q. THIS WORK HAS BEEN DONE, AND IT'S IN THE
POSSESSION OF MR. LARSON, TO THE BEST OF YOUR
KNOWLEDGE?
A. I'M NOT SURE WHOSE POSSESSION IT IS, BUT I WOULD
ASSUME IT IS.
Q. BUT YOU KNOW THAT THE WORK -- YOU BELIEVE THE WORK
TO HAVE BEEN DONE?
A. I BELIEVE THE WORK TO HAVE BEEN DONE. IT WAS NOT
DONE FOR ME.
Q. HAVE YOU SEE IT?
A. I HAVE SEEN PORTIONS OF IT.
Q. ARE THESE THE SATELLITE IMAGES THAT YOU WERE
REFERENCING BEFORE?
A. SOME OF THEM, YES.
Q. WERE THESE PRODUCED TO THE UNITED STATES AMONG
YOUR DOCUMENTS?
A. NO, THEY WERE NOT.
Q. WHY NOT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 518
A. I WAS INSTRUCTED NOT TO PRODUCE THEM.
Q. HOW MANY ARE THERE?
A. I DON'T KNOW. FOUR OR FIVE, OR SOMETHING LIKE
THAT, PHOTOGRAPHS, IMAGES.
Q. AND YOU HAVE THEM IN YOUR POSSESSION AS FULL-SIZED
SATELLITE IMAGES?
A. I HAVE NONE OF THE RAW DATA. I HAVE SLIDES.
Q. YOU ONLY POSSESS SLIDES?
A. I ONLY POSSESS SLIDES. I HAVE SOME POSTERS
RELATED TO THESE. I HAVE NO RAW DATA.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU HAVE A BIG PHOTOGRAPH. YOU JUST
DON'T HAVE THE RAW DATA THAT GOES WITH THE
PHOTOGRAPH. IS THAT RIGHT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO THESE SHOW?
MR. BURGESS: INSTRUCT HIM NOT
TO ANSWER.
MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM
NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. BURGESS: YES.
MS. PONZOLI: BUT HE'S FORMING OPINIONS
ON THIS. HE SAID SO. HIS LANDSCAPE DESIGN
IS BEING BASED PARTIALLY ON THIS,
MR. BURGESS. HOW CAN YOU KEEP ME FROM
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 519
DISCOVERING THIS? HE'S ALREADY SAID THAT HE
ANTICIPATES GIVING TESTIMONY. HE'S
DEVELOPING IT FOR TRIAL.
MR. BURGESS: I DON'T RECALL -- I'LL
HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES. I DON'T RECALL
HIM SAYING THAT HE'S DEVELOPING TESTIMONY
THAT HE ANTICIPATES GIVING AT TRIAL BASED
UPON THESE LANDSAT PHOTOGRAPHS.
MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S PART OF HIS
LANDSCAPE DESIGN FOR HOW THE EVERGLADES
OUGHT TO BE MANAGED, I THOUGHT. YOU'RE
INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO TELL ME WHAT THE
PHOTOGRAPHS SHOW?
MR. BURGESS: THAT'S CORRECT.
MS. PONZOLI: BASED ON WHAT?
MR. BURGESS: I THINK I WENT INTO
THIS YESTERDAY. THEY'RE MY WORK PRODUCT.
HE JUST SAID THEY WEREN'T DONE FOR HIM.
THAT'S THE WAY THE PROPOSAL ORIGINALLY READS.
THAT'S NOT THE WAY THE PROPOSAL WAS
CONDUCTED.
MS. PONZOLI: AND WHEN, IN YOUR THEORY,
MR. BURGESS, ARE THEY GOING TO BECOME
DISCOVERABLE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 520
MR. BURGESS: IFLL TELL YOU IN THE
MORNING. I THINK I'VE ALREADY SAID FOUR TO
SIX WEEKS. I'D LIKE TO REVIEW THIS IN LIGHT
OF HIS TESTIMONY TODAY.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT
ON THE RECORD, MR. BURGESS, THAT I AM A VERY
PERSISTENT AND A RELATIVELY PATIENT PERSON.
AND I HAVE A CLIENT THAT IS REALLY THE SAME.
BUT THESE DEPOSITIONS AND THESE TRIPS TO
NORTH CAROLINA ARE EXCEEDINGLY EXPENSIVE.
AND THE PUBLIC IS PAYING FOR A LARGE AMOUNT
OF EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON AT THIS TABLE.
AND I THINK THAT IT IS A COLOSSAL WASTE OF
THE PUBLIC'S MONEY THAT I HAVE TO RETURN
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN TO NORTH CAROLINA
TO CONDUCT DISCOVERY THAT COULD, QUITE
HONESTLY, BE DONE IN A MUCH SIMPLER, LESS
EXPENSIVE WAY. AND I THINK THAT'S WRONG.
MR. BURGESS: NO ONE'S FORCED YOU TO
TAKE ALL THE DEPOSITIONS UP HERE THAT YOU'VE
TAKEN.
MS. PONZOLI: YES, I BELIEVE---
MR. BURGESS: NO ONEFS FORCED YOU TO---
MS. PONZOLI: --- I BELIEVE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 521
MR. BURGESS: --- COPY BOXES AND BOXES
AND BOXES OF DOCUMENTS.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, IT'S ACTUALLY BEEN
QUITE A REFRESHING EXPERIENCE, SINCE THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE HAS, FOR ALL THE
TIME THAT WE HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED SINCE
BELLE GLADE AND CLEWISTON WERE ALLOWED INTO
THE FEDERAL LITIGATION, REFUSED TO TURN OVER
ANY DOCUMENTS DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT'S VERY
CLEAR FROM DR. RICHARDSON'S TESTIMONY, HIS
DOCUMENTS, YOUR PRIVILEGE LIST AND EVERYTHING
THAT EXISTS, INCLUDING A FEDERAL ORDER FROM
JUDGE HOEVELER, THAT YOU HAVE NOT TURNED
OVER DISCOVERY FOR A PROTRACTED PERIOD OF
TIME.
MR. BURGESS: I DONFT AGREE AT ALL.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK THE RECORD
SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. I'M GOTNG TO CERTIFY THE
QUESTION.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ITEM SIXTY-THREE ON THE
PRIVILEGED LIST IS DATED 5/06/88. IS THAT AN
ACCURATE DATE, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I WOULD ASSUME SO. I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE IT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 522
IS NOT AN ACCURATE DATE.
MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S
ACCURATE, MR. BURGESS?
MR. BURGESS: PROMISES TO TELL THE
TRUTH, YES, I DO. YES, IT IS ACCURATE.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, NO, I MEAN, I'M
ASKING.
MR. BURGESS: YES, MA'AM.
MS. PONZOLI: YOU KNOW, IF IT WERE A
TYPO, YOU CAN SAVE US SOME DIFFICULTY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THEN, WERE YOU A CONSULTANT IN
'88 FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. I WAS NOT.
MS. PONZOLI: THEN, I DON'T SEE HOW
IT COULD BE PRIVILEGED.
MR. BURGESS: OH, IT VERY -- IT VERY
EASILY COULD BE PRIVILEGED. IT DOESN'T
MATTER WHETliER HE WAS A CONSULTANT OR NOT.
IF IT STARTS OUT AS MY WORK PRODUCT, NO
MATTER WHERE IT'S FOUND, IT'S NOT WAIVED IF
SOMEONE WITH AN UMBRELLA OF COMMON INTEREST
HAS A DOCUMENT. I DON'T TREAT THE WORK
PRODUCT PRIVILEGE THE SAME AS ATTORNEY-CLIENT
PRIVILEGE WITH RESPECT TO WAIVER.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE S23
MS. PONZOLI: YOU JUST GRAB IT BACK
AND KEEP IT, HUH?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, IS
MR. KASISCHKE, AT ERIM, WORKING WITH THE LEAGUE
NOW, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. DR. KASISCHKE IS STILL EMPLOYED BY ERIM, TO MY
KNOWLEDGE.
Q. AND ARE THEY STILL DOING WORK FOR THE LEAGUE, TO
YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY ARE NOT.
Q. OKAY. WAS HE AT ANY OF THESE LITIGATION MEETINGS
THAT YOU ATTENDED OVER TIME?
A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN AT ONE MEETING.
Q. WHICH MEETING WAS THAT?
A. IT WAS A MEETING, I BELIEVE, TO REVIEW SOME OF THE
WORK RELATED TO THIS PROPOSAL.
Q. ARE YOU USING IN YOUR PRESENT EFFORTS TO PREPARE
YOUR -- WHAT DID YOU CALL IT -- A LANDSCAPE? WHAT
WAS IT? WHAT'S THE PROPER TITLE?
A. LANDSCAPE ECOLOGY VIEW.
Q. OKAY. YOUR LANDSCAPE ECOLOGY VIEW ARE YOU
USING THESE SATELLITE IMAGES AS PART OF THAT
INFORMATION?
A. THEY'RE NOT AN INTEGRAL PART OF THAT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 524
Q. WELL, NOT JUST AN INTEGRAL PART. ARE YOU USING
THEM?
A. I MEAN, I -- THEY'RE SORT OF LOCKED IN MY DATA
BANK UP HERE IN TERMS OF HOW THEYFRE USED. I'm
NOT USING THEM IN A---
Q. YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THEM OUT FROM ALL YOUR OTHER
KNOWLEDGE OF THE EVERGLADES?
A. I'M NOT USING THEM IN A QUANTIFYING -- QUANTIFIED
WAY. I USE THEM IN CERTAIN WAYS FOR CERTAIN
ASPECTS.
Q. IN WHAT WAYS?
A. IN WHAT WAYS, RELATED TO?
Q. WHAT WAYS ARE YOU USING THEM?
A. WELL, PRIMARILY, I UTILIZED THESE AS AN EARLY -- I
NEEDED TO GET SOME TYPE OF A -- AS MOST ECOLOGISTS
DO, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, YOU NEED TO GET SOME
TYPE OF A PERSPECTIVE ON THE SYSTEM. AND SO,
FROM MY LOW-ELEVATION FLIGHTS AND MY PLOT
ESTABLISHMENTS AND SO FORTH, WHEN THESE WERE DONE,
I BASICALLY SINCE I WAS WORKING IN SOME OF THE
SAME AREAS UTILIZED SOME OF THIS INFORMATION TO
DETERMINE SOME GENERAL AREAS THAT HAD -- PRIMARILY
IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A -- THAT HAD BEEN
RECEIVING WATER AND NUTRIENTS. I UTILIZED THOSE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 525
TO SEE IF PATTERNS CAN BE DETERMINED; TO SEE IF
VEGETATION RESPONSES WERE EVIDENT; AND TO TRY TO
GIVE ME A BETTER HANDLE ON WHAT THE SYSTEM LOOKED
LIKE, OF COURSE, FROM COLOR-ENHANCED AND
COMPUTER-ENHANCED SYSTEMS THAT WOULD BE FOCUSED TO
GROUND TRUTHING.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DR. RICHARDSON, YOU TOLD US
EARLIER TODAY THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE CATTAIL
EXPANSION AREA IS NOT REALLY EXPANDING AT ANY
DISTURBING RATE. IS THAT A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION
OF YOUR TESTIMONY?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE STUDIED RATES. IT JUST
APPEARS THAT, TO ME, FROM MY EVIDENCE THAT I THINK
I SAID, NUMBER ONE, I DON'T THINK IT IS A
SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM FOR THE EVERGLADES. IT'S A
LOCALIZED PROBLEM. AND, NUMBER TWO, I DON'T THINK
IT'S EXPANDING AT THIS ALARMING RATE THAT PEOPLE
HAVE PROPOSED.
Q. HAVE THESE LANDSAT -- SATELLITE IMAGES -- OR THESE
SATELLITE IMAGES HELPED YOU COME TO THAT
CONCLUSION?
A. THEY HAVE GIVEN ME SOME INSIGHTS INTO THAT, YES.
MS. PONZOLI: MR. BURGESS, I THINK
THESE ARE HIGHLY DISCOVERABLE DOCUMENTS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 526
MR. BURGESS: FOR THE THIRD TIME, I'LL
TELL YOU AGAIN, I TOLD YOU I WOULD REVIEW
THAT IN LIGHT OF HIS TESTIMONY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU DO ANY GROUND TRUTHING
FOR THESE SATELLITE IMAGES, DR. RICHARDSON, OR DID
ANY OF YOUR PEOPLE DO GROUND TRUTHING?
A. AS I SAID, SOME OF THE AREAS THAT ARE COVERED BY
THESE LANDSAT PHOTOS ARE DIRECTLY IN LINE OF OUR
PLOTS. SO, I WOULD HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THESE TO THE
LANDSAT. I DID NOT DO AN EXTENSIVE GROUND
TRUTHING TO THESE SITES. I USED -- I DID A
CURSORY ANALYSIS, AS WE WERE MOVING THROUGH OUR
GRADIENT STUDY SO THAT WE WOULD HAVE SOME IDEA IF
THERE WAS SOME CORRESPONDENCE. THE GROUND
TRUTHING TO DO THIS WAS DONE BY ERIM -- THE EXTENT
OF GROUND TRUTHING TO---
Q. THEY ACTUALLY WENT ON THE GROUND AND DID
APPROPRIATE GROUND TRUTHING---
A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY DID---
Q. ---TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE.
A. ---EXTENSIVE GROUND TRUTHING TO PRODUCE THE TYPES
OF REMOTE SENSING PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WOULD BE
USEFUL.
OKAY. DID YOU DO ANY CONSULTATION WITH THEM TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE S27
SAY THAT YOU AGREED WITH THEIR RESULTS -- THEIR
INTERPRETATIONS OF THE SATELLITE IMAGES?
A. I MAY HAVE HAD SOME VERBAL CONVERSATION. I HAD NO
WRITTEN ANALYSES OF THIS.
Q. RIGHT. BUT YOU CONFIRMED THAT YOUR INTERPRETATION
FROM YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE GROUND EITHER CONFORMED
OR DIDN'T CONFORM TO THEIR---
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. --- INTERPRETATION?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND DID YOU FIND THAT IT DID CONFORM TO YOUR
EXPERIENCE ON THE GROUND?
A. REASONABLY WELL, YES, FOR THE AREAS I LOOKED AT.
I DID NOT LOOK AT ALL THE AREAS, SINCE---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- THESE ARE EXTENSIVE AREAS THAT ARE COVERED. I
WAS NOT DOING RESEARCH IN ALL THE AREAS.
Q. DID THEY DO ALL THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS?
A. I THINK PRETTY MUCH. I CAN'T REMEMBER. THE
REASON I HESITATE, I CAN'T REMEMBER IF THERE'S A
LITTLE -- BECAUSE THEY COME ON -- THESE
PHOTOGRAPHS COME IN -- PLATES IS NOT THE CORRECT
WORD -- BUT THEY COME IN SCENES, AND YOU BUY
SCENES. AND SO I -- SOMETIMES A SCENE WILL COME,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 528
YOU HAVE TO BUY TWO SCENES, AND YOU MAY HAVE JUST
A LITTLE PIECE NOT THERE. AND I CAN'T REMEMBER
IF A LITTLE PIECE IS MISSING OR NOT IN ONE OF
THEM. BUT I BELIEVE IT COVERS ALL OF THE
CONSERVATION AREAS.
Q. DOES IT COVER ALL THE EVERGLADES, INCLUDING THE
PARK?
A. IT DOES NOT.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION BACK TO
ERIM TO HELP THEM IN DOING THIS?
A. NO, OTHER THAN JUST, AS I SAID, OCCASIONAL
COMMENTS THAT WERE MADE.
MS. PONZOLI: IS THIS YOUR 12, OR MY 12?
MR. BURGESS: YEAH, MINE.
MS. PONZOLI: IT'S YOURS? WHERE'S MINE?
IN MY LAP?
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE YOU TO LOOK
IN RICHARDSON NUMBER 12.
A. DO I HAVE 12, HERE?
Q. I JUST FOUND MINE. NOW, YOU HAVE TO FIND YOURS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 529
A. WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? OH, IS THAT THE---
Q. IT'S THIS ONE. IT'S 102 AT THE TOP, AND IT'S
RICHARDSON NUMBER 12.
A. OH, OKAY.
Q. OKAY?
A. OKAY.
Q. IF YOU WOULD, LOOK AT THE SECOND PAGE FROM THE
END.
A. OKAY. THIS IS A PLATE, OR FIGURE.
Q. YES, SIR. YES, SIR. DOES THIS HAVE ANYTHING
TO DO WITH THESE LANDSAT IMAGES THAT WE'RE
DISCUSSING?
A. WELL, I HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THIS PROPOSAL IN A
LONG TIME. SO, IT'S -- JUST LET ME SEE. I REALLY
HAVEN'T REVIEWED THIS.
Q. TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND LOOK AT IT.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. OKAY.
Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT IS, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. WELL, FROM A VERY CURSORY LOOK AT THIS, IT WOULD
APPEAR THAT THIS FIGURE 1 IS AN AREA THAT --
WHERE EOASAT PHOTOS OR SATELLITE IMAGERY WOULD
BE AVAILABLE FOR THAT REGION. IT WOULD BE MY
GUESS -- AS I SAID, I WOULD -- I HAD NOT -- THEY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 530
DID NOT SEND THIS PROPOSAL TO ME, NOR DID I HELP
WRITE THIS PROPOSAL.
Q. RIGHT.
A. THAT THAT WAS AN AREA THAT WAS AVAILABLE FROM
CERTAIN LANDSAT IMAGERY AND THAT COVERED THOSE
PARTICULAR AREAS, AND THAT THAT'S THE AREA THAT
THEY PROPOSED THAT THEY COULD OBTAIN SATELLITE
PHOTOGRAPHS OR IMAGERY FROM, BECAUSE THEY'RE
TECHNICALLY NOT PHOTOGRAPHS.
Q. RIGHT. AND ARE THESE THE AREAS THAT YOU BELIEVE
ARE REPRESENTED, FROM WHAT YOU RECALL?
A. THOSE AREAS WILL BE INCLUDED IN THERE. I BELIEVE
SO.
Q. DO YOU KNOW THE TYPE OF GROUND TRUTHING THAT WAS
DONE, HOW THE DATA WAS COLLECTED?
A. I HAVE LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF THAT. IN FACT, I HAVE
NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT. I WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH
THAT. THE ONLY COMMENT -- I SAY I HAVE LITTLE
KNOWLEDGE. ALL I KNOW IS THAT DISCUSSIONS WERE
MADE THAT THEY WERE DOING THIS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU AWARE OF OTHER SATELLITE
IMAGERY WORK BEING DONE ON BEHALF OF PERHAPS A
COOPERATIVE?
A. I AM NOT. I DON'T THINK SO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 531
Q. HAVE YOU REVIEWED ANY OTHER SATELLITE IMAGERY,
OTHER THAN THIS SATELLITE IMAGERY?
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) FOR THIS -- FOR THE EVERGLADES
ISSUES?
MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION.
A. WELL, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, I HAVE PROVIDED YOU
WITH SOME GENERAL LANDSATS THAT ARE MORE GENERAL.
I MAY -- OH, I WAS IN THE PARK FOR PART OF A DAY
ACTUALLY REVIEWING SOME OF THE PARK'S IMAGERY
WORK.
Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS EARLY '89, MAYBE, AND
I ---
Q. AS A TOURIST?
A. NO, I WAS INVITED.
Q. OH.
A. IT WAS A WORKSHOP.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND I'VE SEEN SOME IMAGERY-AIDING ANALYSIS, SOME
SPECIES OF IT. I BELIEVE THE DISTRICT EVEN SENT
ME ONE ONE TIME, OR I SAW PART OF IT.
Q. SURE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 532
A. SO IFVE SEEN VARIOUS PIECES.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I GUESS
WE'LL REVISIT THIS AFTER MR. BURGESS ALLOWS
US TO IN THE MORNING, OR DOESN'T ALLOW US TO,
OR WHATEVER.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) GOING BACK TO RICHARDSON NUMBER
EIGHT, THE LSU WETLAND SOILS GROUP DID NOT WORK
WITH YOU, OR DID WORK WITH YOU? YOU SAID THEY HAD
AGREED TO, BUT I THINK YOU SAID THEY DIDN'T. is
THAT RIGHT?
A. THEY HAD AGREED TO WORK WITH US. I BELIEVE I
TALKED TO DR. RON DELON ON THAT. BUT IN THE END,
WE SIMPLY DIDN'T WORK WITH HIM.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. WE BASICALLY -- I HIRED DR. CRAFT, AND HE HAD SOME
OF THOSE SKILLS. ALSO WE DECIDED THAT IT WAS JUST
TOO DIFFICULT. THEIR LABORATORY WAS OVERLOADED
WITH SAMPLES. IT'D BE MORE APPROPRIATE IF WE
ACTUALLY DID THEM IN-HOUSE, AND SO WE JUST DIDN'T
WORK WITH THEM.
Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT RONNIE BEST WORKING ON CERTAIN
ASPECTS OF THE CATTAIL WORK? DID THAT COME TO
PASS?
A. NO, IT DID NOT COME TO PASS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 533
Q. HAVE YOU WORKED WITH MR. BEST SUBSEQUENTLY ON
THOSE ISSUES?
A. RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES?
Q. YES.
A. YES, RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. NO, I HAVE NOT WORKED WITH RONNIE BEST ON CATTAIL
WORK.
Q. WAS THE CESIUM ONE -- WAS THE CESIUM EQUIPMENT
VERY EXPENSIVE -- THE EQUIPMENT TO DO THAT
ANALYSIS?
MR. BURGESS: I OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
A. WAS IT VERY EXPENSIVE? IT'S---
Q. YEAH. WAS IT EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT? WHAT DID IT
COST? DO YOU RECALL?
A. WE GOT A PRETTY GOOD DEAL ON IT. WE GOT A
UNIVERSITY DEMONSTRATION FOR THAT PIECE OF
EQUIPMENT -- DISCOUNT, SO I DON'T REMEMBER. IT'S
THIRTY THOUSAND ($30,000.00). I THINK THE, YOU
KNOW, LIST PRICE IS, LIKE, SIXTY-FIVE
($65,000.00), BUT WE GOT A GOOD PRICE ON IT.
Q. IS THAT SO OTHER UNIVERSITIES CAN COME AND SEE
WHAT YOU'RE DOING OR---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 534
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY.
A. WE WOULD TRAIN STUDENTS, AND THEY WOULD GO OUT AND
BUY THE SAME PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.
Q. OKAY. LET'S RETURN TO RICHARDSON NUMBER 9. THIS
IS THE EPD BOARD MEETING AT WHICH YOU AND, IT
APPEARS, MR. MacVICAR WERE BOTH IN ATTENDANCE. I
HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ON THAT DOCUMENT, AND
THEN WE'LL GO TO YOUR PROPOSAL. IT SAYS THAT ALL
THE MEETINGS ARE TAPE RECORDED. IS THAT YOUR --
IS THAT YOUR -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE TAPE
RECORDED?
A. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.
Q. MAYBE WE NEED TO DO A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST.
EVIDENTLY, YOU DID A PRESENTATION AT THIS MEETING.
IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. I BELIEVE THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. AND DID YOU PRESENT YOUR PROPOSAL, TO THE
BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION?
A. I BELIEVE I DID.
Q. SO THIS PROBABLY WAS THE MEETING THAT MR. MacVICAR
WOULD HAVE MADE HIS COMMENTS, DON'T YOU THINK?
MR. BURGESS: OBJECTION. ASKED AND
ANSWERED.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 535
A. SO, DO I ANSWER?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I MEAN---
A. I THINK SO. I'M NOT -- I JUST ---
Q. --- YOU THINK SO. MAYBE IT JUST ---
A. --- I JUST DON'T WANT TO---
Q. I KNOW, I KNOW. I'M NOT -- MY ONLY POINT IS -- IS
THAT WERE -- DID -- YOU DIDN'T GO TO THESE
MONTHLY, DID YOU, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I WENT TO SEVERAL, BUT I DIDN'T -- I MAY GO THREE,
FOUR MONTHS BEFORE I WOULD GO TO ANOTHER ONE.
Q. RIGHT.
A. BUT I MAY HAVE GONE TO SEVERAL BACK-TO-BACK,
AND---
Q. RIGHT, RIGHT.
A. ---THAT'S THE ONLY REASON I HESITATE. I CAN'T
REMEMBER IF, AFTER -- BECAUSE THIS IS A LONG TIME
AGO -- IF, AFTER---
Q. RIGHT, I KNOW.
A. --- PRESENTING THIS ONE, THEY CALLED ME BACK THE
NEXT MONTH. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. OKAY.
A. BUT THIS IS THE LOGICAL---
Q. TIME THAT HE WOULD HAVE MADE THESE COMMENTS. AND
THIS IS THE PROPOSAL, THE SEVEN HUNDRED AND
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 536
THIRTY-TWO THOUSAND, SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIVE
($732,705.00).
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU WORKING WITH RONNIE
BEST IN ANY CAPACITY IN THE EVERGLADES, NOW?
A. NO, I AM NOT.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU IN THE PAST?
A. WE PROPOSED SOME JOINT STUDIES.
Q. RIGHT. TO THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE OR THE EPD OR
WHAT?
A. NO. I -- WE PROPOSED TO WORK TOGETHER ON THIS
PARTICULAR PROJECT.
Q. OKAY, OKAY. I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT YOUR PROPOSAL FOR
JUST A SECOND. DID YOU AMEND THIS PROPOSAL TO
REFLECT THE CHANGES THAT YOU MADE AS A RESULT OF
MR. MacVICARIS COMMENTS?
A. DID I CHANGE THIS PROPOSAL?
Q. DID YOU AMEND IT AND---
A. AMEND IT?
Q. --- RESUBMIT IT?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE WE MAY WE MAY HAVE ADDED AN
ADDENDUM -- THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION -- TO THIS. I
CAN'T REMEMBER. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION. WE HAD
AN ADDENDUM.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 537
Q. OKAY.
A. I COULD BE WRONG ON THAT, BUT I---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I BELIEVE AFTER THAT WE DID HAVE AN ADDENDUM---
Q. SURE, SURE.
A. --- BECAUSE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WERE RAISED.
Q. OKAY. I HAVE AN ADDENDUM. IT'S A 1990 ADDENDUM,
IN SEPTEMBER 1990. DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE
WHAT YOUFRE REFERRING TO?
A. I COULD LOOK AT IT AND ---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- MAYBE GIVE YOU SOME ---
MS. PONZOLI: IT IS THIS EXPERT
DOCUMENT?
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY
THIS DOCUMENT?
A. YES. IT LOOKS LIKE AN ADDENDUM TO THE PROPOSAL TO
THE EPD.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S CALL THIS
RICHARDSON NUMBER 13, IS IT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 538
COURT REPORTER: (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MS. PONZOLI: WE'LL LET HER MARK IT,
DR. RICHARDSON.
WITNESS: I'M SORRY. IT WAS -- I'M
FALLING BEHIND HERE.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 13 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. REID: I'M SORRY, WOULD YOU DESCRIBE
IT AGAIN?
MS. PONZOLI: IT IS "EFFECTS OF NITROGEN
AND PHOSPHORUS ON SAWGRASS, SAWGRASS-CATTAIL
AND SLOUGH COMMUNITIES (ADDENDUM ONE, TO THE
PROPOSAL TO THE EVERGLADES AGRICULTURAL AREA,
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT)
SEPTEMBER 14, 1990.
WITNESS: OKAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DOES THIS ADDENDUM INCLUDE AN
AMENDMENT, AS REFLECTED IN THE COMMENTS FROM
MR. MacVICAR?
A. I THINK THIS DOCUMENT IS A COLLECTION OF -- YOU
SAY COMMENTS -- DOES IT -- OH, EXCUSE ME. DOES IT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 539
REFLECT COMMENTS DIRECTLY?
Q. NO. DOES IT REFLECT A CHANGING OF THE DOMINANT
GOALS OF THE RESEARCH, WHICH HAD BEEN REFLECTED
IN THE OBJECTIVES IN THE RICHARDSON EXHIBIT
NUMBER 10?
A. RIGHT. THE OBJECTIVES ARE STILL THE SAME. THE
APPROACHES HAVE ALTERED SLIGHTLY. AND, AS I
MENTIONED BEFORE, IN THE ORIGINAL PROPOSAL,
OBJECTIVE 3, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS TO ANALYZE THE
EFFECTIVENESS OF THE HOLEYLAND AS A NUTRIENT
SINK---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND THAT WAS -- WE WERE ASKED BY MacVICAR,
IN NOT SO MANY WORDS, TO REMOVE THE HOLEYLAND
FROM CONSIDERATION. WE DID. AND, AT THAT TIME
I THINK THERE ARE SOME LETTERS IN THE FILE -- I
ACTUALLY MET, I THINK, WITH WOODY WODRASKA AND
WITH MacVICAR AND SAID THAT I WANTED TO COOPERATE
AND WORK WITH THEM AND TRY TO WORK OUT A
REASONABLE WORKING RELATIONSHIP, WHICH I THOUGHT
WE WERE ON THE ROAD TO DOING. SO---
Q. RIGHT. DID THAT REASONABLE WORKING RELATIONSHIP
EVOLVE, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. NOT TO THE DEGREE THAT I THOUGHT IT WOULD, BUT I
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 540
THINK THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE LEGAL -- ALL THE
LEGAL ENTANGLEMENTS THAT GOT INVOLVED. AND I
DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS PARTICULARLY AS A RESULT
OF ANYTHING THE INDIVIDUAL SCIENTISTS IN THE
DISTRICT WERE DOING. I THINK IT WAS JUST A RESULT
OF ALL THE MACHINATIONS REGARDING THE LEGAL
HASSLES.
Q. DID YOU EVER MEET WITH MR. ROGERS -- SKADDEN,
ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER AND FLOM?
A. MR. ROGERS?
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
A. NO, I'VE NOT BEEN IN MR. ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD, AS
FAR AS -- IS THAT AN ATTORNEY?
Q. YES.
A. NO.
Q. YOU NEVER MET WITH ---
A. I DON'T -- MY KNOWLEDGE.
Q. --- THE ATTORNEYS FOR THE WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT?
A. NO. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, I DID NOT.
Q. OKAY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 541
MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. WELL, I GUESS MY
QUESTION TO YOU IS, DO YOU CONTINUE TO HAVE A GOOD
WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT OR DO YOU FEEL THAT THERE'S BEEN SOME
DISTANCING?
A. YEAH, I THINK DISTANCING MIGHT BE AN APPROPRIATE
WORD.
Q. WHEN DID THAT DISTANCING OCCUR, TO THE BEST OF
YOUR RECOLLECTION?
A. I THINK WHEN THE SUITS AND THE COUNTERSUITS
BEGAN TO BE FILED, THERE WERE SOME PROBLEMS
RELATED TO THAT. AND, ALSO, I THINK EARLY ON
THERE WAS SOME -- POSSIBLY SOME OF MY EARLY
PRESENTATIONS THAT BASICALLY -- BASICALLY MAY
HAVE STEPPED ON THE TOES OF SOME OF THE DISTRICT'S
POSITIONS THAT SAID THAT SOME DATA WAS MAYBE NOT
APPROPRIATE, OR WAS, IN MY OPINION AT LEAST, NOT
APPROPRIATELY UTILIZED. SO, I'M SURE THAT HAD
SOME FACTORS. AND SO I'M SURE THERE'S A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 542
COMBINATION OF AREAS THAT RELATED TO THAT.
BUT WITH THE DISTRICT, IN THEIR DEFENSE, THE
PEOPLE HAVE PROVIDED US ACCESS TO THOSE AREAS,
AND CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN QUITE
COOPERATIVE.
Q. WHICH INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN QUITE COOPERATIVE?
A. WELL, INITIALLY, STEVE DAVIS TOOK US AROUND
AND GAVE US SOME INSIGHT.
Q. RIGHT.
MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
A. GARTH REDFIELD HAS BEEN -- AND SUE NEWMAN HAVE
BEEN HELPFUL AND REASONABLY COOPERATIVE ON NUMBERS
OF THINGS. IN TERMS OF FIELD SCIENTISTS, THE ONLY
FIELD SCIENTIST WHO HAD -- WHO I'VE HAD MUCH
CONTACT WITH WAS ORIGINALLY STEVE DAVIS, AND
THEN A LITTLE BIT ON MARGARITE KOCH, WHO HAS
GONE FROM HOT TO COLD, TO COLD TO HOT TO -- IN
TERMS OF HER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S GOING ON,
WHAT'S BEING DONE. SO I -- YOU KNOW, WE HAVE AT
LEAST, I THINK, A PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP AT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 543
THIS MOMENT. I WOULD SAY THAT. AT LEAST, IT'S
CORDIAL. SO, THERE -- YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN
SOME OF THIS. I'VE BEEN INVITED, FOR EXAMPLE, TO
SIT IN ON THE ENR REVIEW BOARD, THAT REVIEW
WORKSHOP. SO I WAS INVITED TO DO THAT. I WAS
INVITED BY GARTli REDFIELD TO PARTICIPATE IN A
WORKSHOP AT CORNELL. AND SO WE HAVE HAD -- WE'VE
HAD SOME PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS, YOU KNOW,
THAT CONTINUE.
Q. ARE THERE ANY SCIENTISTS WHO REFUSE TO COOPERATE
WITH YOU AT THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT?
A. NOT AT THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, THAT I CAN
THINK OF. NO. WE'VE HAD SOME DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT
MAYBE INTERPRETATION OR SOMETHING, BUT THEY'VE
NOT---
Q. SURE, SURE.
A. --- THEY'VE NOT DISAGREED OR THEY'VE NOT, NOT
WORKED WITH ME.
Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAS ANYONE DONE AN ANALYSIS OF
THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE HOLEYLAND AS A NUTRIENT
SINK?
A. I BELIEVE THE DISTRICT TOOK THIS -- SOME OF THESE
IDEAS IN HERE AND HAS SINCE CO-FUNDED SOME SIMILAR
TYPES OF WORK. THE HOLEYLAND WORK, I THINK, HAS
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 544
BEEN DONE BY DR. REDDY, THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA,
I BELIEVE, AT LEAST TO SOME ASPECTS OF IT.
Q. I WOULD LIKE TO REFER YOU TO PAGE 28 OF RICHARDSON
NUMBER 10, YOUR PROPOSAL IN 1990.
MR. BURGESS: NO, THAT'S NOT --
THAT'S 13.
WITNESS: THAT'S 13.
MR. BURGESS: THAT'S IT.
WITNESS: OKAY. WHAT PAGE -- I'M
SORRY -- 28?
MS. PONZOLI: PAGE 28, RIGHT.
WITNESS: OKAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU HAVE, UNDER NUMBER 6, AN
ECOSYSTEM ESTIMATE OF 0.56 GRAMS PER METER SQUARED
PER YEAR FROM YOUR CESIUM STUDY. IS THAT RIGHT?
AM I READING IT RIGHT?
A. MY ECOSYSTEM ESTIMATE?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. YEAH, IT APPEARS TO BE SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q. IS THAT A NUMBER THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY ADJUSTED
DOWNWARD TO 0.46? IS THAT THE SAME NUMBER?
A. THAT -- THIS WAS A DIFFERENT -- THIS IS A
PRELIMINARY ESTIMATE, AND IT WAS A DIFFERENT
APPROACH.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 545
Q. UH-HUH, UH-HUH (YES).
A. I WAS BASICALLY USING A -- ONE APPROACH TO LOOK AT
THIS, I THINK, THREE YEARS AGO.
Q. AND THE DIFFERENCE IN THE APPROACH WAS WHAT?
A. WELL, THIS APPROACH IS SIMPLY LOOKING AT THE
LOADING END AND LOOKING AT THE AREA THAT WAS
ESTIMATED TO BE -- AND THAT WAS SORT OF A
PRELIMINARY ESTIMATE OF THE AREA -- AND
ESSENTIALLY MAKING SOME -- I THINK I HAD SOME
DISCLAIMERS IN THE FRONT OF THIS, SIMPLY SAYING
THAT THIS WAS A -- THIS WAS ACTUALLY A SECOND LINE
OF EVIDENCE. IT SIMPLY SAID THAT, IF YOU ASSUMED
DISTRIBUTION OF THIS MATERIAL UNIFORMLY, WHICH IT
WOULD NOT BE, AS WE NOW KNOW, BUT IT WOULD GIVE
YOU A REASONABLE PROXIMATION THAT YOU WOULD HAVE
SOME IDEA , IF WE WERE IN THE BALLPARK, OF WHAT THE
STORAGE RATE WOULD BE PER UNIT AREA PER YEAR,
WHICH IS 0.56, AND IT'S DEFINITELY IN THE
BALLPARK; RELATES TO OUR HIGHEST NUMBER, I
BELIEVE, WHICH WAS 0.6 AT THAT TIME FROM OUR
CESIUM STUDY. SO, IT'S WITHIN THE BALLPARK.
Q. HAS THE 0.56, THEN, BEEN REVISED?
A. YES.
Q. AND IT'S NOW?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 546
A. POINT FOUR -- SOMETHING 44, I BELIEVE. IT MAY
BE 0.46. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER,
BUT---
Q. WELL, NOW, THE 0.46, DOES THAT INVOLVE YOUR
DISTANCE WEIGHTING TO ARRIVE AT THAT NUMBER?
A. YOU WOULD HAVE TO SHOW ME SPECIFICALLY WHERE
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH 46. AND WHERE ARE YOU
NOW? I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU'RE GETTING THE 46
FROM.
Q. WELL, I JUST ASKED YOU, HAD THAT NUMBER NOW
BECOME -- HAD THE 56 NUMBER BEEN ADJUSTED
DOWNWARD, AND YOU SAID, YES, IT HAD BEEN ADJUSTED
DOWN TO THE 0.46. AND I WAS JUST ASKING YOU THAT
IT WAS PART---
A. OR 0.44. I'M---
Q. --- OR 0.44, OR WHATEVER. IS THE 0.44 WHAT
DR. DAVIS PRESENTS IN HIS PAPER -- HIS EXPLANATION
OF YOUR---
A. DR. DAVIS DOES NOT PRESENT NO AN EXPLANATION
FOR THAT.
Q. OKAY, OKAY. ALL RIGHT. BUT, WHEN YOU ARRIVE AT
YOUR 0.46, IS TIIAT USING YOUR DISTANCE WEIGHTING
ON THE GRADIENT?
A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT DISTANCE WEIGHTING YOU'RE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 547
REFERRING TO.
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?
A. NOT MY DISTANCE WEIGHTING, I DON'T. I---
Q. WELL, DR. CRAFT? DR. QUALLS, I GUESS IT IS.
DR. QUALLS IS THE ONE WHO DID THAT?
A. I DID NOT -- DR. QUALLS DID -- IN HIS SECTION ON
WATER QUALITY, HE DID SOME DISTANCE WEIGHTING.
I DID NOT UTILIZE THAT DISTANCE WEIGHTING IN
MINE.
Q. TO ARRIVE AT THE 0.46?
A. NO, I DID NOT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET ME TURN YOU -- REFER YOU TO
PAGE 36, AND I THINK WE CAN FINISH FOR TODAY.
EXPERIMENT 2 TALKS ABOUT TRANSPLANTING SAWGRASS
AND CATTAIL TO PLOTS OF BELLE GLADE. DID THAT
EVER OCCUR?
A. IT DID NOT.
Q. NOR DID THE FIRE REGIME PLOTS OCCUR?
A. IT DID NOT.
Q. NOR THE BIOMASS AND SPECIES COMPOSITION?
A. THEY ARE UNDER 3, OR IN YOUR -- WERE YOU UNDER
THE 3?
Q. UNDER 3, YES, SIR.
A. WELL, THIS, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, WAS A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 548
HYDROPERIOD NUTRIENTS FIRE INTERACTION STUDY.
Q. RIGHT.
A. I BELIEVE THE DISCUSSION WAS, THIS WAS TOO COMPLEX
TO DO EARLY ON; THAT IT SHOULD BE LOOKED AT IN
PIECES. AND, AS YOU MAY REMEMBER, IN '89-190, WE
WERE IN A SEVERE DROUGHT. AND TO PROPOSE SETTING
PARTS OF THE EVERGLADES ON FIRE WITH NO WATER FOR
TWO YEARS WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO CONTROL. AND
SO WE HAD TO COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE PLAN ON
THAT. WE DID MEASURE SOME SPECIES COMPOSITION ON
THE FIRE PLOT WE TALKED ABOUT, BUT IT WAS NOT AN
EXPERIMENT. THAT'S THE ONE I WAS TELLING YOU
ABOUT EARLIER.
Q. IN THE FERTILIZER STUDY IN 2B?
A. NO.
Q. I THOUGHT YOU SAID -- OH, OH, IT WAS -- I'M SORRY.
IT WAS A LONGER GRADIENT STUDY THAT---
A. THE GRADIENT STUDY WHERE---
Q. --- THAT PORTIONS OF IT BURNED.
A. ---WHERE THERE WAS A PIECE OF IT BURNED ONE
EDGE.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. BUT THIS EXPERIMENT, WHICH I STILL THINK NEEDS TO
BE DONE, HAS NOT BEEN DONE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 549
Q. OKAY. BUT, ACTUALLY, WHAT YOU WERE LEFT WITH WAS
EVEN A LESS DESIRABLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE, BECAUSE
YOU SAID IT WAS TOO COMPLICATED TO SET UP A
CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT AND FIRE AND YOU WERE LEFT
WITH A TOTALLY UNCONTROLLED EXPERIMENT AND WITH
IN FIRE TO---
A. WELL---
Q. --- DRAW DATA FROM?
A. IT CAN BE UTILIZED FOR SOME MANAGEMENT PURPOSES.
AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, YOU CAN USE SOME DATA
LIKE THAT AS INFERENCES.
Q. RIGHT.
A. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO ESSENTIALLY DO PARTS OF THIS
EXPERIMENT.
Q. RIGHT. ISN'T THAT REALLY OBSERVATIONAL DATA,
THOUGH, DR. RICHARDSON, WHERE YOU JUST WRITE DOWN
WHAT HAPPENED?
A. NO. WE'RE QUANTIFYING, TO SOME DEGREE, IF YOU
IT ISN'T---
Q. YOU HAD NO CONTROLS. I MEAN, IT JUST BURNED BY
CHANCE?
A. WELL, WE ARE GOING TO USE SOME AREAS TO COMPARE IT
TO. BUT THE BEST WAY TO DO THIS WOULD BE TO SET
UP A CONTROLLED FIRE EXPERIMENT TO---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 55O
Q. SO, YOUR FIRE INFORMATION IS UNCONTROLLED? ISN'T
THAT ACCURATE? YOU DIDN'T SET THE FIRE---
MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM.
Q. --- DID YOU, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I DID NOT START THE FIRE.
Q. THANK YOU. SO, IT WAS UNCONTROLLED?
A. IT WAS AN UNCONTROLLED FIRE.
MS. PONZOLI: THANK YOU. NINE O'CLOCK
IN THE MORNING?
WITNESS: FINE.
MS. PONZOLI: THANK YOU.
------------------------------------------------------
(THEREUPON, THIS PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF
DR. RICHARDSON WAS RECESSED AT 5:52 P.M. TO
BE RESUMED AT 9:00 A.M. ON JANUARY 13, 1993.)
------------------------------------------------------
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 551
NORTH CAROLINA
DURHAM COUNTY
I, DR. JOHN CURTIS RICHARDSON, HAVE
READ THE FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT OF MY
DEPOSITION, VOLUME I, AND DO HEREBY CERTIFY
THAT THE PRECEDING PAGES 1 THROUGH 550
CONSTITUTE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPTION
OF MY TESTIMONY.
___________________________
JOHN CURTIS RICHARDSON, Ph.D.
SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED
BEFORE ME, A NOTARY PUBLIC,
THIS THE _____ DAY OF_________,
1993.
______________________________
NOTARY PUBLIC
MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:
PAGE 552
NORTH CAROLINA
WAKE COUNTY
C E R T I F I C A T E
I, PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY PUBLIC, DO HEREBY
CERTIFY THAT CURTIS RICHARDSON WAS DULY SWORN
BY ME PRIOR TO THE TAKING OF THE FOREGOING DEPOSITION,
AND THAT THE FOREGOING --@-50 PAGES CONSTITUTE A TRUE
AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPTION OF THE TESTIMONY OF THE SAID
WITNESS.
I DO FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE PERSONS WERE PRESENT
AS STATED IN THE CAPTION.
I DO FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NOT OF COUNSEL FOR,
OR IN THE EMPLOYMENT OF EITHER OF THE PARTIES TO THIS
ACTION, NOR AM I INTERESTED IN THE RESULTS OF THIS
ACTION.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I HAVE HEREUNTO SUBSCRIBED MY
NAME, THIS THE 4TH DAY OF FEBRUARY 1992
___________________________
PAMELA S. LILES
CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES
2551 ALBEMARLE AVENUE
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27610
MY COMMISSION EXPIRES
JUNE 15, 1997