DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 201 Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WE HAVE A PENDING QUESTION THAT, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT COULD BE IMPROVED OVER TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT? A. AS I THINK I SORT OF HINTED, IF I DIDN'T, WITHOUT REVIEWING THE DOCUMENTS IN MORE DETAIL, AND LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DATA IN THE EAA, MORE SPECIFIC DATA, I REALLY -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE SOME POSSIBILITIES THAT THEY COULD DO SO. I THINK THERE MAY BE SOME OTHER MECHANISMS, THAT I MENTIONED IN MY SECOND REPORT, THAT I THINK SHOULD BE LOOKED AT, AND I STILL THINK THEY SHOULD BE LOOKED AT, BUT WHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF REDUCTIONS ARE, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN--- Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO OPINION AS TO HOW MUCH MORE THEY COULD RAISE OVER TWENTY-FIVE--- A. RAISE? MR. BURGESS: RAISE? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, LOWER -- I'M SORRY. LOWER. RAISE THE PERCENTAGE OF REDUCTION, OR WHATEVER. ANYWAY, LOWER THEIR PHOSPHORUS? A. I DON'T HAVE A PERCENTAGE NUMBER IN MIND. I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME OBVIOUS CHOICES IN SOME CASES, BUT THE FARMERS HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, DECIDE, I MEAN, SOME OF THOSE COMPONENTS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 202 Q. WHAT ARE THE OBVIOUS CHOICES? A. WELL, I SUPPOSE THERE IS A SERIES OF STUDIES THAT COULD BE DONE ON REDUCTIONS FOR, YOU KNOW, VEGETABLE CROPS, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MUCH NUTRIENT MATERIAL THEY COULD GET BY WITH. THERE ARE STUDIES THAT COULD BE RECYCLING AND RECIRCULATING WATER. THERE COULD BE SOME HOLDING PONDS THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED. THERE COULD BE A VARIETY -- I MEAN, THERE ARE A WHOLE LIST OF TECHNIQUES, MOST OF WHICH PEOPLE DON'T HAVE NUMBERS ON. Q. THIS IS IN YOUR REPORT, YOU SAID? A. SOME OF THOSE GENERIC AREAS ARE IN THE -- ARE IN MY RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WAS IN MY SECOND REPORT. Q. WHEN YOU SAY YOUR SECOND REPORT, I THINK WE'RE A LITTLE CONFUSED. DO YOU MEAN YOUR ANNUAL REPORT? A. MY ANNUAL REPORT. Q. OKAY. AND WHICH CHAPTER WAS THIS? A. IT'S IN THE BACK. Q. IN THE CONCLUSIONS? A. I THINK THERE'S A SECTION CALLED RECOMMENDATIONS OR SOMETHING. Q. OKAY. AND THESE, REDUCTION OF VEGETABLE CROPS AND THE HOLDING PONDS AND WHATEVER ELSE YOU HAD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 203 LISTED, WERE ALL -- YOU BELIEVE WERE LISTED THERE, TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION WERE THERE? A. I JUST SAID BMP'S IN A GENERIC SENSE. Q. OKAY, OKAY. A. I DIDN'T SAY WHICH SPECIFIC ONES. MY POINT THERE IS SIMPLY THAT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER ALTERNATIVES THAT CAN BE LOOKED AT. AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ALL SIDES SHOULD BE LOOKING AT OTHER ALTERNATIVES. Q. SUCH AS? NOW, YOU SAID THERE ARE OTHER POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVES, BUT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD US WHAT THEY ARE. YOUFVE MENTIONED THE BMP'S, AND YOU SAID THAT YOU THOUGHT DR. PATRICK'S PROPOSAL SHOULD BE FUNDED AND FOLLOWED THROUGH ON, BUT WHAT OTHER ALTERNATIVES DO YOU BELIEVE ARE VIABLE? A. WELL, I THINK I MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE SOME HOLDING POND SCENARIOS, RECYCLING OF WATER WITHIN THE SYSTEM, A REDUCTION OF UTILIZATION OF NUTRIENTS. I THINK I MENTIONED THAT ONE. THERE COULD BE TESTS DONE ON FORMS OF NUTRIENTS. BUT THESE ARE -- THESE ARE NOT THINGS THAT YOU SIMPLY ONE DAY TURN ON THE ANSWER AND GET THE ANSWER. YOU NEED TO HAVE SOME SPECIFIC RESEARCH TAILORED TO DO THIS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 204 Q. AND YOU RECOMMENDED AS FAR BACK AS 1989 THAT THE INDUSTRY START DOING THAT? A. I RECOM -- I'M SORRY. MR. BURGESS: I OBJECT TO 'I'HE CHARACTERIZATION OF HIS TESTIMONY -- "DOING THAT." Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DOING RESEARCH ON 'I'HESE BMP OR ALTERNATE REMOVAL FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS. A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS, BUT I -- IT MAY BE SOMETIME IN LATE 189 OR 190. AS I SAID, I THINK THAT WAS MY -- SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. BUT I DID NOT GIVE SPECIFIC -- SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS. I MEAN, I WAS NOT ASKED TO, BUT I WAS TELLING THEM THAI' I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO APPROACH THIS, THAT THEY SHOULD DO SO. Q. IF YOU'RE CHECKING YOUR RECORDS, YOU MEAN YOUR CALENDAR OF EVENTS--- A. UH--- Q. --- HOW DO YOU MEAN CHECK YOUR RECORDS? DO YOU KEEP -- DO YOU KEEP LOGS THAT TELL YOU WHEN YOU MET WITH PEOPLE? A. NO, NOT PARTICULARLY. BUT I -- BUT I' MAY HAVE, IF I WENT THROUGH AND LOOKED AT MY CORRESPONDENCE OR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 205 SOMETHING, I MAY HAVE A WAY OF LOOKING TO SEE WHAT -- YOU KNOW, I AM ACTUALLY NOT QUITE AS GOOD AT THAT AS I SHOULD BE. Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR MEETING WITH MR. WEDGWORTH IN 1988, FOLLOWING MR. BARBER RECOMMENDING YOU, HAVING MET YOU AT A WETLANDS CONFERENCE, AND MR. WEDGWORTH AT THAT TIME WAS IN THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. AFTER OUR MEETING, OR DURING OUR MEETING, HE SAID TO ME THAT, IN FACT, WHAT WE -- WHAT THAT -- MEANING THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS INTERESTED IN WAS TO -- TO CONDUCT SOME RESEARCH. GEORGE HAS ALWAYS BEEN FAIRLY, AT LEAST TO ME, STRAIGHTFORWARD, IN THAT WE HAD TO FIND OUT THE FACTS. WITHOUT THE FACTS, NO ONE COULD WE'D BE ACTING BLINDLY ON THIS INFORMATION, 130 AND I TOLD HIM THAT IF WE DID THIS RESEARCH, ONE, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PUBLISH THIS INFORMATION. WE DID NOT DO THIS INFORMATION ANY OTHER WAY. HE SAID THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM, AND -- BUT HE ALSO TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE VISITING THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND SOME OTHER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 206 INSTITUTIONS, AND SO THAT WE'D HAVE TO BASICALLY DEVELOP A PROPOSAL, AND THEN THEY WOULD MAKE A DECISION AFTER WE PRESENTED OUR PROPOSALS, WHAT WE WOULD DO, AND THEN PROCEED FROM THERE. SO, WE THEN WENT BACK -- I WENT BACK -- I SAY WE -- I WENT BACK AND BASICALLY DEVELOPED A PROPOSAL TO LOOK AT THE CATTAIL ISSUE. AND BASICALLY I CALLED IT A PILOT STUDY, BECAUSE AT THAT TIME I FELT THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION, AS ANY ECOLOGIST WOULD, YOU NEED TO -- I NEEDED TO GET MY OWN BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON THE WHOLE STATE OF THE EVERGLADES--- Q. OKAY. A. --- SO, I PROCEEDED TO DO SO. AND--- Q. YOU DID A PROPOSAL TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND DO YOU BELIEVE YOU PROVIDED THAT TO US AMONG YOUR DOCUMENTS? A. I BELIEVE SO. IF I DIDN'T, I CAN SURELY PRODUCE IT. Q. WOULD YOU DO THAT? I WAS UNABLE TO LOCATE IT, AND I JUST MUST HAVE PASSED BY IT, BUT THERE WERE A FAIR NUMBER--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 207 A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---AND THEY CAME IN TONS A DAY, FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. A. YEAH. Q. OKAY. I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT IF YOU COULD BRING THAT, ALONG WITH YOUR CURRENT CV--- A. OKAY. Q. --- AND MS. RAIKES' PAPER, IF YOU CAN GET THAT FROM WHEREVER IT IS. A. OKAY. Q. OKAY. MR. GREEN: HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT, SUZAN. I MISSED THAT DEPO--- MS. PONZOLI: RAIKES? MR. GREEN: YEAH. MS. PONZOLI: R-A-I-K-E-S. MR. GREEN: OKAY. WITNESS: I DON'T BELIEVE HERE WAS A DEPOSITION. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, HER NAME CAME UP IN A PRIOR DEPOSITION. WITNESS: RIGHT, BUT I--- MS. PONZOLI: THAT MR. GREEN WAS HERE. MR. GREEN: THANK YOU. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 208 MS. PONZOLI: IT WAS JANE RAIKES. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. I WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING, FROM YOUR PROPOSAL, PROBABLY FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK, DR. RICHARDSON, TO THE LINE I HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN PURSUING, AS TO WHICH EXPERT WITNESSES YOU HAD BEEN WORKING WITH ON BEHALF OF THE LEAGUE AND THE COOPERATIVE, AND TRY TO FINISH THAT UP TODAY. A. OKAY. Q. BECAUSE THATFS WHERE -- IT'S HOW WE ENDED UP GOING DOWN THIS ROAD. A. OKAY. Q. AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO FINISH UP THAT DISCRETE AREA. I DON'T RECALL YOUR -- YOUR EXACT PREVIOUS ANSWER AS TO WHOM YOU WERE WORKING WITH. I THINK WE HAD GONE INTO -- YOU HAD DONE SOME LITERATURE SEARCHES AND YOU'D MET WITH SOME PEOPLE. I'D LIKE TO KNOW SPECIFICALLY, ARE THERE EXPERTS WITH WHOM YOU CONSULT TO PREPARE EITHER PRESENTATIONS, WHICH I THINK YOU DID SAY YOU HAD DONE SOME OF THAT, DID YOU NOT? A. DONE SOME PRESENTATIONS. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, WHOM HAVE YOU CONSULTED WITH TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 209 DO PRESENTATIONS? MR. BURGESS: PRESENTATIONS TO WHOM? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHOM HAVE YOU DONE PRESENTATIONS TO, DR. RICHARDSON? A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN I MAKE PRESENTATIONS, I PRETTY MUCH DO THEM MYSELF, OR WITH MY STAFF. AND WE DON'T -- WHAT WE PRESENT NORMALLY IS WHERE WE -- USUALLY WE ARE ASKED TO -- AND IFLL TELL YOU WHO IN A MINUTE -- WE ARE ASKED TO PRESENT OUR CURRENT STATE OF KNOWLEDGE AND WHERE WE ARE ON RESEARCH. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND, SO, I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY AUDUBON SOCIETY, SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, SOUTHERN FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, NUMEROUS NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL MEETINGS TO PRESENT INFORMATION. Q. WETLANDS CONFERENCES OF ALL DIFFERENT--- A. WETLAND CONFERENCES ALL DIFFERENT TYPES. Q. SIZES, SORTS AND SHAPES? A. LECTURES AT VARIOUS UNIVERSITIES--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). UH-HUH (YES). A. --- HALF A DOZEN OF THOSE -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER -- AROUND THE COUNTRY, SPECIFICALLY ON THIS EVERGLADES ISSUE, SO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 210 Q. HOW OFTEN DO YOU MEET -- WELL, WHOM 1)0 YOU MEET WITH BEFORE YOU DO THESE? WHICH OF THE EXPERTS FOR THE LEAGUE, OR THE COOPERATIVE, 1)0 YOU MEET WITH PRIOR TO ANY OF THESE, SAGE OR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, OR AUDUBON OR FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, ANY OF THEM, WHOM HAVE YOU MET WITH? A. OCCASIONALLY, I MEET ON SOME OF THOSE PRESENTATIONS -- YOU KNOW, YOU WANT SPECIFIC PEOPLE? Q. I WANT SPECIFIC PEOPLE. A. MOST OF THE TIME, I'D -- I'D HAVE TO GO IN CHRONOLOGY, IT'S -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S USUALLY TO -- TO BASICALLY GIVE AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY. SECONDLY, IT'S PEOPLE LIKE ANDY RACKLEY. AT ONE TIME, IT WAS ED BARBER. OCCASIONALLY, IT WAS BOB BUKER. AND SOME OF THE OTHER PEOPLE, I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES. I OCCASIONALLY HAVE MADE PRESENTATIONS TO THE EQC ON MY RESEARCH. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER HAD -- HAS DR. DAVIS EVER PARTICIPATED IN--- A. OH, YES. Q. --- ANY OF THESE MEETINGS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 211 A. OH, YES, JOHN DAVIS. YES, DR. JOHN DAVIS HAS BEEN AT THOSE MEETINGS. Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON? A. OH, NOT -- NOT VERY MANY OF THE MEETINGS THAT I'VE BEEN AT THAT -- HAS HE BEEN AT. HE WAS -- HE MAY HAVE BEEN AT ONE OR TWO, BUT NOT VERY MANY. I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT MOST OF THESE MEETINGS. Q. OKAY. DR. PATRICK, HAS HE EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY OF THESE? A. HE HAS PARTICIPATED OCCASIONALLY. Q. DR. POLLMAN? A. ON -- I HAVE MET WITH -- MET WITH HIM OCCASIONALLY, BUT NOT ON THESE MEETINGS--- Q. OKAY. WHAT--- A. --- NOT ON THOSE MEETINGS, NO. Q. WHAT HAVE YOU MEET WITH DR. POLLMAN ON? A. WE HAVE HAD SOME MEETINGS -- ONE IN GAINESVILLE, AND ONE, I BELIEVE, OR MAYBE TWO AT DUKE. Q. ON WHAT? A. SPECIFICALLY TO -- TO -- TO LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING. THEY PRIMARILY -- IN FACT, BILL GREEN CAME TO ONE OF THOSE MEETINGS, OR MAYBE TWO OF THEM, TO -- BASICALLY, THEY WANTED TO BE BROUGHT UP TO SPEED AS TO WHERE OUR RESEARCH WAS. AND, IN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 212 FACT, THAT IS PART AND PARCEL -- MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I MEET WITH PEOPLE, I'D SAY EIGHTY PERCENT -- I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT FIGURE -- THAT IS WHAT I'M DOING. I AM BRINGING THIS GROUP UP TO SPEED OF WHAT WE'RE FINDING. Q. DO THEY EVER OFFER COMMENTS ON THE TONE OF YOUR PRESENTATION, OR MAKE SUGGESTIONS AS TO THE VISUALS THAT YOU MIGHT USE? A. NOT REALLY. THEY'RE MOSTLY CONFUSED BY IT, I THINK. Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THEM QUOTE WHAT YOU DID IN THE PRESENTATIONS? A. HAVE I EVER HEARD THEM? NO. Q. HAVE YOU EVER READ REPRESENTATIONS IN PRESS RELEASES AS TO WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THE CURRENT STATE OF YOUR RESEARCH? A. I HAVE--- MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM, JUST WHO THEM IS. I DON'T KNOW WHO THEM IS. WITNESS: YEAH, WHO IS THEM? WHO BE THEM? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, ONE OF THE THEMS IS MR. BUKER. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 213 A. YES. AND HAVE I EVER HEARD OR--- Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OR READ MR. BUKERIS CHARACTERIZATIONS OF THE CURRENT STATE OF YOUR RESEARCH? A. I'VE READ, I BELIEVE -- AS YOU KNOW, I DO GET SOME NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS FROM DOWN THERE, TO TRY TO KEEP ABREAST OF WHAT'S GOING ON. Q. I'VE GOT A FEW. A. WELL, IF YOU READ THE BACK--- Q. YOURS AND MINE. A. IF YOU -- IF YOU READ THE BACKSIDE, THERE'S DEAR ABBY AND MORE INTERESTING READING ON THE BACK. PARDON ME. I HAVE READ SOME, I BELIEVE -- I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW MANY -- BUT SOME COMMENTS THAT HE HAS MADE RELATED TO OUR RESEARCH. Q. HAVE YOU EVER FOUND MISCHARACTERIZATIONS OF YOUR RESEARCH? A. I'D SAY AT LEAST MISUNDERSTANDINGS OF SOME COMPONENTS OF IT. Q. OKAY. DID YOU FIND THAT DR. PATRICK AND DR. POLLMAN WERE CONFUSED BY THE STATE OF YOUR RESEARCH? A. NO. Q. OKAY. NOR DR. DAVIS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 214 A. NO. HOWEVER, YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT IN SOME ASPECTS, THE DEPTH OF WHICH YOU DISCUSS CERTAIN COMPONENTS OF RESEARCH CAN BE, TO ALMOST ANYONE, CONFUSING UNLESS YOU HAVE THE MATERIAL TO READ OR GO THROUGH IT. IT CAN BE. AND, ALSO, IT ALSO MAY BE THAT I SPEAK RAPIDLY AND AM NOT QUITE AS CLEAR ON SOME THINGS AS I SHOULD BE. Q. IN PREPARATION FOR YOUR PRESENTATIONS AT, LET'S SAY WHATEVER, A WETLANDS CONFERENCE OR WHATEVER, ANY OF THESE -- THESE MEETINGS, HAVE YOU HAD JOINT MEETINGS THAT INCLUDED ATTORNEYS AND OTHER EXPERTS? A. NO. Q. THEY HAVE ONLY INCLUDED OTHER EXPERTS OR CONSULTANTS? A. NO ONE -- LIKE FOR, SAY, A WETLANDS MEETING? Q. FOR SAGE -- FOR SAGE. LET'S SAY SPECIFICALLY FOR THE SAGE PRESENTATION. A. I'M SORRY, BUT I THOUGHT I THOUGHT YOU HAD SAID WETLANDS MEETINGS. Q. WELL, NO, I'VE SORT OF MADE THEM ALL GENERIC. I'VE INCLUDED ALL OF THESE, SAGE, AUDUBON, U.S. SUGAR OR SOUTH FLORIDA. I SORT OF LUMPED THEM ALL TOGETHER. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 215 MR. BURGESS: THEN I'LL OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, BASED UPON ITS OVERBREADTH AND AMBIGUITY. AND, ON THAT BASIS, I THINK THAT YOU'RE IMPLICATING POTENTIALLY SOME ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT AND/OR ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRESENTATIONS AS FAR AS THE LEAGUE AND U.S. SUGAR ARE CONCERNED, WITH OTHER PRESENTATIONS SUCH AS SAGE, AUDUBON, AND WETLANDS CONFERENCE, AND I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO THAT. A. SO --- MS. PONZOLI: I CAN ASK HIM IF HE MET WITH EXPERTS AND ATTORNEYS PRIOR. MR. BURGESS: OH, SURE. MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT QUESTION IS IMPROPER. MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER. I JUST THINK IT'S CONFUSING. A. FIRST OF ALL, I WOULDN'T LUMP ALL THOSE TOGETHER, BECAUSE -- BUT WE CAN GO THROUGH. YOU SAID SPECIFICALLY SAGE? Q. THE LAST SAGE PRESENTATION, THE ONE THAT WE'RE GOING TO--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 216 A. CORRECT. Q. --- YOU KNOW, DISCUSS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE YOU'VE REFERRED TO IT SEVERAL TIMES TODAY, AND I HAVE, TOO. LET'S TAKE THAT ONE SPECIFICALLY. DID YOU MEET WITH OTHER EXPERTS, AND/OR ATTORNEYS, PRIOR TO THAT PRESENTATION? A. YES. Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU MEET WITH BOTH OTHER EXPERTS AND ATTORNEYS? A. YES. Q. OKAY. WHOM DID YOU MEET WITH? A. I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHO WAS -- THERE WAS ACTUALLY -- JUST PRIOR TO THE ACTUAL SAGE MEETING ITSELF, I WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SCIENCE ADVISORY REVIEW BOARD FOR EPA, AND I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS, AND SO I ACTUALLY PREPARED THAT PRESENTATION, WHICH I DID MYSELF. I DO ALL OF MY OWN PRESENTATIONS, WITH THE HELP OF MY STAFF--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND MET JUST BRIEFLY -- BECAUSE I ACTUALLY HAD VERY DIFFICULT CONNECTIONS, I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS, AND I FLEW TO MIAMI, AND ACTUALLY ROI)E UP WITH RICK. AND I MET IN MIAMI -- THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM WHO WERE HAVING A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 217 CONSULTANT'S MEETING. OKAY, SO -- AND I DON'T -- I DID NOT SIT IN THAT MEETING, PER SE. I COULDN'T TELL YOU ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THERE. THEY WERE DOING WHATEVER THEY WERE DOING, AND I SAT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY FINISHED THEIR PRESENTATIONS, AND THEN I CAME IN AND MADE A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT I WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE NEXT DAY, AND THEN DROVE UP. AND THEN WE -- I MADE THE PRESENTATION, SO. Q. ARE YOU -- YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT MR. BURGESS AND MR. GREEN WERE THERE? MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. BUT I DON"T --- MR. GREEN MAY HAVE BEEN THERE, AND MAY HAVE LE-FT. I CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE LEFT EARLY OR NOT. I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE STAYED FOR THE PRESENTATION OR NOT. Q. YOU'RE NOT IMPLYING THAT ANYONE ON THIS SIDE OF THE TABLE WAS THERE? A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER, BUT THERE WERE SOME OTHER PEOPLE THERE. I BELIEVE PHIL--- MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. MS. PONZOLI: OH, HE CAN ANSWER WHO WAS THERE. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL HIM HE CAN'T TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING, MR. BURGESS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 218 MR. BURGESS: RIGHT. RIGHT. MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING? MR. BURGESS: YES. MS. PONZOLI: ON WHAT BASIC? MR. BURGESS: ON THE BASIS THAT HE IDENTIFIED IT, AND I KNOW IT AS AN ATTORNEY CONSULTANT MEETING. THE MAN CONSULTS FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. HE SHARES A COMMON INTEREST WITH RESPECT TO THE ATTORNEYS AND CONSULTANTS THAT CONSULT WITH THE LEAGUE. I MEAN, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE IDENTIFIES PERSONS THAT WERE THERE MAY IMPLICATE MY LITIGATION STRATEGY WITH RESPECT TO THE PEOPLE THAT I CALL TOGETHER. HE HAS TESTIFIED HE WAS NOT AT THE MEETING; HE SAT IN THE HALLWAY. MS. PONZOLI: BUT HE ENTERED THE ROOM AND HE SAW THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM AND PARTICIPATED IN THE MEETING TO THAT EXTENT. MR. BURGESS: YES, WITH RESPECT TO MAKING HIS BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO THE NEXT DAY, AND IF THAT'S YOU'RE ASKING WHO WAS THERE FOR THAT MEETING, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 219 THAT'S FINE, BUT NOT WITH RESPECT TO THE PREVIOUS MEETING WHICH HE SAID FIE DIDN'T ATTEND. MS. PONZOLI: HE CAN'T TELL ME WHO WAS THERE FOR THE PREVIOUS MEETING? MR. BURGESS: THATTS RIGHT. MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER? MR. BURGESS: YES. MS. PONZOLI: BECAUSE IT REVEALS ATTORNEY/CLIENT PRIVILEGE? MR. BURGESS: DO WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE THIS TETE A TETE ON THE RECORD, MS. PONZOLI? MS. PONZOLI: OH, YES. WE MOST CERTAINLY DO NEED TO HAVE THIS TETE-A-TETE ON THE RECORD, BECAUSE THIS IS PRECISELY THE TYPE OF INFORMATION THAT BOTH THE LEAGUE AND THE COOPERATIVE ARE SEEKING FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ON SOME SIGNIFICANT MEETINGS THAT I'VE BELIEVE REFLECT ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGES, AND I FIND IT VERY, VERY AMAZING THAT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO SEEK THIS TYPE OF INFORMATION. SO, I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT VERY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 220 CLEAR WHAT I AM BEING PROHIBITED FROM OBTAINING, BECAUSE I HAVE THIS STINKY LITTLE FEELING THAT THESE THINGS CUT BOTH WAYS, SO I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT. MR. BURGESS: IT'S CLARIFIED. CONSIDER IT VERY CLEAR. I'M INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER TO TELL YOU WHO WAS AT THE MEETING, THAT HE'S IDENTIFIED AS THE ATTORNEY- CONSULTANT MEETING, WHICH PRECEDED HIS BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE NEXT DAY. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. MR. GREEN: I GUESS I NEED TO SAY SOMETHING FOR THE RECORD, SINCE IT'S ALMOST FIVE. MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T CARE WHO'S AT THE NEXT--- MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, I DON'T RECALL THE INSTANCE IN WHICH YOU MADE A SIMILAR STATEMENT THAT I -- I HAVENFT BEEN TO ALL THE DEPOSITIONS WITH REGARD TO YOUR WITNESSES. I'LL JUST SAY, ONE, I DON'T RECALL THAT. NUMBER TWO, FOR THE RECORD, I WAS NOT AT THE MEETING IN MIAMI THAT YOU'RE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 221 TALKING ABOUT. I'D LIKE TO JUST STATE THAT. WE CAN GO AHEAD. MR. KILLINGER: NOR WAS I. WITNESS: I SAID I DIDN'T -- I WASN'T SURE WHETHER HE WAS THERE. I THINK I -- HE APPARENTLY CLARIFIED THAT. MS. PONZOLI: SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, MR. GREEN IS YOU WOULD CONTINUE TO ASSERT YOUR RIGHT TO OBTAIN THE -- THE ATTENDEES AT SUCH MEETINGS? MR. GREEN: IF IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO OBTAIN THEM, AND AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW THE FACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF WHICH YOU'RE SPEAKING. SURE. THAT'S WHY I'M STATING THIS. I'M NOT WAIVING ANY RIGHT TO OBTAIN WHATEVER DISCOVERY WE'RE ENTITLED TO, BUT I DON'T HAVE THE HISTORY OF THIS THAT YOU AND MR. BURGESS HAVE. I JUST WANTED TO STATE THAT SO IT WOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A WAIVER IN LIGHT OF WHAT YOU SAID. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK -- I THINK THAT IT MAY BE THAT IT IS THE COOPERATIVE THAT IS SEEKING THE MEMBERS OF CERTAIN MEETINGS, AND--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 222 MR. GREEN: THAT MAY BE. MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, IT MAY BE. MR. GREEN: I CAN'T DEBATE THAT WITH YOU, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS OF THE MATTER. MS. PONZOLI: YOUR INTERROGATORIES, YOU DON'T REMEMBER YOUR INTERROGATORIES? MR. GREEN: I'LL GO BACK AND LOOK AT THOSE. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY, YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED. MR. GREEN: SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA, THOUGH. MR. REID: WHO WAS AT THE NEXT MEETING IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. MS. PONZOLI: I KNOW. MR. REID, I WILL ASK. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU HAVE NOT, DR. RICHARDSON, BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING WHERE YOU WALKED INTO THE ROOM AND PEOPLE WERE SITTING THERE. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WAS NOT THERE, SO WHO WAS? MR. BURGESS, I ASSUME WAS THERE. A. MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. JOHN DAVIS WAS THERE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 223 Q. OKAY. A. IT WAS ACTUALLY VERY SPARSE BY THAT TIME, BECAUSE IT WAS VERY LATE IN THE DAY. THERE WAS NOT AS MUCH INTEREST AS YOU MIGHT THINK. MR. REID: CAN WE ASK WHO HE PASSED AS HE WALKED IN THE ROOM, SINCE THE MEETING WAS TECHNICALLY OVER, AND THE PRIVILEGE ENDED? A. UH--- MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU GOING TO INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO INDICATE WHO PASSED HIM IN THE HALL, MR. BURGESS? MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT. MR. REID: IT MUST BE GETTING NEAR FIVE O'CLOCK. A. I'M NOT SURE. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER PERSON, BUT I'M JUST NOT--- Q. YOU DID IT TO AN AUDIENCE OF TWO, DR. RICHARDSON? A. IT MAY HAVE FALL -- IT WAS VERY FEW. I MEAN, IT WASN'T MORE THAN FOUR. IT MAY HAVE BEEN THREE, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS VERY FEW. IT WAS--- Q. WAS MR. LARSON THERE? A. NO, I DO NOT--- Q. MR. PARSONS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 224 A. HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT I'M THINKING OF, BUT I HAVE A RECOLLECTION THAT HE MAY HAVE HAD TO LEAVE EARLY FOR A FLIGHT CONNECTION--- Q. HOW DID--- A. --- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW -- THEY PROBABLY GET TIRED OF HEARING THIS INFORMATION. Q. WHO ELSE DID PRESENTATIONS AT THAT MEETING? A. AT MY MEETING? Q. AT THE ONE THAT YOU WAITED IN LINE TO DO YOUR PRESENTATION. A. I WAS THE ONLY ONE. I WAS THE TAIL-E:ND. I CAME IN LATE. IT WAS -- IT WAS IN THE EVENING. IT WAS PAST SUPPER TIME, IF MY RECOLLECTION IS CORRECT. Q. SO, YOU DID THE PRESENTATION THAT YOU WERE OFFERING AT SAGE THE NEXT DAY? A. CORRECT. Q. WAS IT CRITIQUED OR COMMENTED ON? A. NOT MUCH. Q. APPLAUDED? A. NO. Q. NONE OF THE ABOVE? A. NO. Q. I THINK YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE HAD OTHER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 225 MEETINGS IN THIS -- IN THIS REGARD. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THOSE HAVE BEEN. A. IN WHICH REGARD? Q. WHERE YOU HAVE MET WITH OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE LEAGUE, AND/OR THE COOPERATIVE. A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, I HAVE MET A NUMBER OF TIMES FOR EQC, WHICH THERE COULD HAVE BEEN -- WELL, THERE WERE IN CERTAIN INSTANCES, CONSULTANTS THERE. Q. WHO WAS THERE? A. WELL, DR. PATRICK AND DR. DAVIS PRIMARILY ARE THE TWO. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER PEOPLE, BUT SOME OF THESE MEETINGS ARE TWO OR THREE YEARS OLD, SO ITTS HARD TO SAY. Q. MR. BARBER? A. OH, YES. MR. BARBER WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE. Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON? A. AS I SAID, MR. LARSON AND I HAVE CROSSED PATHS VERY LITTLE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, OTHER THAN MAYBE AT A SAGE MEETING WHERE HE'S I14 ONE PLACE AND I'M IN ANOTHER. Q. SURE. A. WE'VE NOT -- WE'VE NOT MET. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW OFTEN YOU HAVE MET WITH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 226 DR. DAVIS? A. UH, A FEW TIMES. I DON'T KNOW, A HALF A DOZEN TIMES, BUT NOT -- NOT SINGLY. PRIMARILY IN THESE MEETINGS, HE WOULD BE IN THE SAME ROOM THAT I WOULD BE IN. Q. HAS DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE LEAGUE OR THE COOPERATIVE EVER PREPARED VISUALS OR SLIDES OR EXHIBITS FOR YOU' TO USE AT A PRESENTATION? A. I BELIEVE IN '89, WHEN I WAS WORKING FOR THE LEAGUE, SOME GENERAL 3-D GRAPHICS WERE PRODUCED PRIMARILY OF BACKGROUNDS, WATER MANAGEMENT DATA. NONE OF MY DATA, PER SE, THAT I CAN REMEMBER. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OR TWO INSTANCES. MOST OF IT WAS WHAT I CALL GENERIC RAINFALL DATA, SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DAI'A, BECAUSE, AT THAT TIME, WE DID NOT HAVE THE COMPUTER SYSTEM AVAILABLE TO PRODUCE SLIDES--- Q. WAS THIS--- A. --- AND HE DID. Q. OKAY. WAS THIS FOR A PRESENTATION TO THE WATER MANAGEMENT BOARD? A. ONE OF THEM, YES, IT WAS. Q. HAD DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 227 SUBSEQUENTLY PREPARED VISUALS OR SLIDES OR GRAPHICS FOR YOU TO USE? A. IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, I HAVE PRODUCED ALL OF MY OWN SLIDES, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. THERE MAY BE ONE OR TWO SLIDES THAT ARE AN EXCEPTION TO THAT. BUT I'VE GOT OVER, AS YOU KNOW, FIFTEEN HUNDRED SLIDES. I CAN'T REALLY ATTEST TO THAT. I ACTUALLY HAVE TEN THOUSAND SLIDES, BUT IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO SEPARATE THOSE FROM THE EVERGLADES SLIDES. MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK WE'RE A LITTLE PAST FIVE AND I FEEL THE ROOM GROWING RESTLESS, SO WE HAD BETTER--- WITNESS: THE ANIMALS ARE HUNGRY. MS. PONZOLI: WE'LL START AGAIN IN THE MORNING AT NINE. WITNESS: AT NINE? MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES). ------------------------------------------------------ (THEREUPON, THIS PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. RICHARDSON WAS RECESSED AT 5:06 P.M., TO BE RESUMED AT 9:00 A.M. ON JANUARY 12, 1993.) ------------------------------------------------------ DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 228 THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON WAS TAKEN ON THE 4TH DAY OF JANUARY, 1993, BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 9:00 A.M. IN THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE WALKER SUITE, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, AND WAS REPORTED BY PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY PUBLIC. MS. PONZOLI: MR. McCAUGHAN -- I WOULD LIKE TO PUT ON THE RECORD -- MR. McCAUGHAN PHONED AND SAID THAT HE'S TIED UP IN A CONFERENCE CALL, AND THAT WE COULD START WITHOUT HIM, AND THAT HE WOULD BE HERE AS SOON AS HE WAS ABLE. MR. BURGESS: SUZAN, I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE RECORD, IF I MAY. YES? MS. PONZOLI: (GESTURES.) MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE GESTURING MY WAY. IN MAKING MY OBJECTIONS YESTERDAY CONCERNING INSTRUCTING THE WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER WHO WAS PRESENT AT VARIOUS LITIGATION, CONSULTANT AND OTHER MEETINGS, I WAS FOLLOWING THE LEAD OF THE UNITED STATES SET IN THE FEDERAL SUIT, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 229 SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO THE FINLEY AND WALKER DEPOSITIONS. HOWEVER, SINCE THE STATEMENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES YESTERDAY ON THE RECORD THAT DISCLOSURE IS A TWO-WAY STREET, I AM NOT GOING TO INSTRUCT DR. RICHARDSON NOT TO ANSWER SUCH QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE NAMES OF PERSONS WHO WERE IN ATTENDANCE AT THESE MEETINGS, INCLUDING THE MEETINGS ABOUT WHICH HE SPOKE YESTERDAY, WITH ONE EXCEPTION THAT I AM AWARE OF, ONE MEETING THAT DR. RICHARDSON ATTENDED, THAT I ALSO ATTENDED, WAS ATTENDED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT NOW A LISTED TESTIFYING EXPERT FOR THE LEAGUE, AND I THINK PURSUANT TO CASE LAW UNTIL HE IS, IF EVER, LISTED AS A TESTIFYING WITNESS, HIS IDENTITY MAY NOT BE DISCLOSED THROUGH THIS WITNESS. THANK YOU. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I GUESS -- THAT'S QUITE AN INTERESTING CONCESSION, BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY DIDN'T CONCEDE MUCH, YOU KEPT BACK THE ONE THING THAT WE HAD ARGUED OVER YESTERDAY. BUT IF I HEAR YOU CORRECTLY, YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT I MAY ASK HIM WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT THE PRIOR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 230 MEETING. I WILL NOT, HOWEVER, IN REFERENCE TO THE ISSUES THAT MR. GREEN AND I WERE ALLUDING TO IN REGARD TO THE SETTLEMENT DISCUSSION MEETINGS, WAIVE ANY OBJECTIONS OR PRIVILEGES THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO ASSERT. SO, I WANT TO BE FAIR WITH YOU IN THAT REGARD. OUR POSITION REGARDING THOSE MEETINGS IS NOT GOING TO BE ALTERED BY YOUR STATEMENT. BUT IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT YOU HAVE WITHDRAWN YOUR INSTRUCTION TO YOUR WITNESS TO ANSWER, EXCEPT AS TO THE ONE INDIVIDUAL YOU INDICATE IS A -- I THINK I CAN HAVE THE IDENTITY OF A CONSULTANT; I JUST DON'T THINK I CAN HAVE HIS DEPOSITION, MR. BURGESS, SO I THINK I WOULD ASK YOU TO RECONSIDER THAT. MR. BURGESS: I DISAGREE. MS. PONZOLI: SO, YOU ARE INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO GIVE ME THAT PARTICULAR CON -- YOU'RE CALLING THIS A CONSULTANT, IS THAT ACCURATE? MR. BURGESS: RIGHT, A NON-TESTIFYING CONSULTANT. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 231 MR. BURGESS: AND I DISAGREE. I THINK IT IS A MAJOR CONCESSION ON OUR PART, WHICH I UNDERSTAND IS GOING TO OPERATE AS A QUID PRO QUO WITH RESPECT TO CONSULTANT MEETINGS AND THE NAMES OF PERSONS IN ATTENDANCE AT CONSULTANT MEETINGS, IF THOSE PERSONS ARE EITHER ATTORNEYS, CLIENTS, OR LISTED AS TESTIFYING EXPERT WITNESSES. AND I WOULD EXPECT THAT IF YOU HAVE NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT CONSULTANTS YOU WOULD ALSO REFRAIN FROM IDENTIFYING THEM BASED UPON THE INSTANCE THAT I JUST MENTIONED. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, SINCE YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY SPENT THE EVENING DISCUSSING THIS WITH MR. GREEN AND HAD A PREPARED STATEMENT TO READ, I SUGGEST WE GO OFF THE RECORD AND I HAVE BRIEF MEETING WITH MY CO-RE:SPONDENTS AND SEE IF WE WANT TO COME BACK WITH A POSITION THAT WE'LL PUT ON THE RECORD. MR. BURGESS: OKAY. (THEREUPON, A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) MS. PONZOLI: GOING BACK ON THE RECORD. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO WANT TO TAKE THIS ON DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 232 A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT WILLING TO ENTER SOME GLOBAL STIPULATION AT THIS POINT, MR. BURGESS. BUT SINCE YOU HAVE NARROWED YOUR INSTRUCTION ABOUT NOT ANSWERING, THEN I THINK I WILL ASK DR. RICHARDSON. EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. YOU WERE WAITING IN THE HALL AT THIS MEETING IN PREPARATION FOR SORT OF A DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE PRESENTATION, DR. RICHARDSON? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE INDIVIDUAL YOUR LAWYER HAS INSTRUCTED YOU NOT TO REVEAL -- I ASSUME YOU KNOW WHO THIS PERSON WAS, DO YOU? A. THE PERSON THAT I'M--- Q. THAT YOU'VE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO REVEAL. A. YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THAT PERSON, PLEASE TELL ME WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT THAT PRE-MEETING. A. AT THE PRE-MEETING? Q. YES, SIR. A. WELL, SINCE I SAID I ONLY JUST SORT OF POPPED IN AND SAID I WAS -- "I'M HERE." AND THEY SAID, "GO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 233 OUT, WAIT IN THE HALLWAY." AND THEN, OF COURSE, WHEN THE MEETING BROKE UP, I SAW SOME PEOPLE IN THE ROOM. I DID NOT SEE ALL THE PEOPLE. THERE WERE -- I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T TELL YOU THE TOTAL NUMBER. Q. TEN, MAYBE? A. MAYBE TEN, MAYBE TWELVE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE TOTAL. I DIDN'T COUNT THEM. Q. WAS MR. WEDGWORTH ONE OF THEM? A. I DON'T REMEMBER, SERIOUSLY. Q. OKAY. A. THE PEOPLE I CAN REMEMBER IN THAT ROOM WERE PHIL PARSONS, JOHN DAVIS, RICK BURGESS, DE, BREEDLOVE--- Q. DENNIS BREEDLOW? A. BREEDLOVE, I THINK IT IS. Q. OH. A. COURTNEY HACKNEY. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER ATTORNEYS THERE FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHICH ONES THEY WERE. I JUST DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER. Q. MS. CAVANAUGH OR MR. EARL? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 234 A. I THINK BILL EARL WAS THERE. Q. MR. BUKER? A. YES, HE WAS THERE. Q. ANYONE FROM FLO SUN? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. AS I SAID, I REALLY DIDN'T -- I REALLY--- Q. PETE ROSENDAHL? A. YEAH, I THINK PETE ROSENDAHL WAS THERE. Q. WE'VE GOT EIGHT. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WASN'T THERE. A. I THINK I TOLD YOU YESTERDAY I WASN'T SURE IF HE WAS OR HE WASN'T. Q. HE TOLD US. MR. GREEN: NOT THAT I WOULDN'T HAVE ENJOYED BEING THERE. MS. PONZOLI: THEY DIDN'T INVITE ME EITHER. WITNESS: THEY DIDN'T INVITE ME EITHER; I HAD TO WAIT IN THE HALLWAY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WAS THERE A REASON FOR THAT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I THINK -- WELL, THEY'VE HAD A NUMBER OF CONSULTANT MEETINGS WHICH I AM NOT INVOLVED WITH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 235 Q. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT MEETING, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? A. I BELIEVE SO. Q. OKAY. AND WERE THEY HAVING A PRESENTATION BY THIS OTHER PERSON WHOM YOUFVE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO IDENTIFY? A. I WAS NOT AT THAT MEETING. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW IF THE OTHER PERSON DID A PRESENTATION OR NOT, YOU HAD NO EVIDENCE THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE ONE? A. NO. Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S ALL THE PEOPLE YOU CAN REMEMBER AT THAT MEETING? A. THAT'S ALL I CAN REMEMBER. AND I'D BE SPECULATING, I MEAN, YOU KNOW. AND I MAY NOT BE A HUNDRED PERCENT ACCURATE ON THOSE, -.1 MEAN. BUT I -- YOU KNOW, IT'S REASONABLE -- IT'S A REASONABLE LIST. Q. OKAY. AND I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY THAT MISTER -- YOU THINK, TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION, APPROXIMATELY, MR. PARSONS, MR. BURGESS, MR. DAVIS, MAY HAVE REMAINED BEHIND TO HEAR YOUR DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE PRESENTATION, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. YES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 236 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU WERE EXCLUDED FROM THAT FIRST MEETING? A. WELL, AS I SAID, IT'S -- FOR THE FIRST -- WELL, SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THE GRANT, WHILE I HAVE ADVISED THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE ON SOME MATTERS AS TO THE EXPERTS THEY MIGHT CONSIDER, OR SOME SPECIFIC MATTERS, OR DOCUMENTS, OR OTHER TYPES OF INFORMATION, I HAVE NOT BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE CONSULTANTS; I HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING IN THE FIELD WITH THEM, NOR HAVE I -- THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS TO THAT RELATED TO REVIEWING, AS I MENTIONED THE OTHER DAY, THE ENTRY INTO THE PARK; I HAVE LOOKED AT SOME OF THAT DOCUMENTATION. BUT IN TERMS OF THE WORK THAT THE CONSULTANTS ARE DOING, I'M REALLY -- OTHER THAN A VERY CURSORY WAY, I'M REALLY NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND THAT'S BEEN KEPT THAT WAY, BOTH FROM 'THEIR POINT OF VIEW AND FROM MY POINT OF VIEW. IT'S ONLY DONE, I GUESS, AS A WAY TO KEEP SEPARATE THE A. RESEARCH COMPONENT AND WHAT CONSULTANCIES I DO FOR THEM. AND, SO, I THINK BASICALLY IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE, I MEAN, I'M JUST NOT -- I'M NOT PRIVY TO THE INFORMATION OR WHAT THEY'VE DISCUSSED IN TERMS OF THEIR CONSULTANCY WORK. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 237 Q. WAS THIS EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU AS AN ACTUAL STRATEGY THAT THE VARIOUS CONSULTANTS WOULD BE KEPT SEPARATE, EXCEPT IN CERTAIN FORMAL LINES OF COMMUNICATION? A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU EARLIER, WHEN I STARTED WITH GEORGE -- WORKING WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH, WHO AT THAT TIME WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INITIALLY, I BASICALLY POINTED OUT THAT THE UNIVERSITY WOULD WORK ON THE BASIS THAT THE INFORMATION WE WOULD GATHER WOULD BE OPEN AND IN OPEN FORUM; THAT WE WOULD HAVE STUDENTS INVOLVED; AND THAT WE WOULD HAVE JUNIOR FACULTY MEMBERS INVOLVED, AND THEY MUST BE ALLOWED TO PUBLISH; AND -- OTHERWISE, THE UNIVERSITY -- WE WOULD BE INTERESTED MORE IN THE BASIC RESEARCH THAN WHAT'S GOING ON. AND GEORGE WAS ABSOLUTELY 'INSISTENT, WHILE HE WAS HEAD OF THE LEAGUE, AND ALSO EARLY ON, AND STILL, AS FAR AS I KNOW IN MY EVEN MORE RECENT CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM, THAT THAT IS THE APPROPRIATE TACK TO TAKE. SO, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, I THINK IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE; AND FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE. SO, FOR THE RESEARCH PART, WE'VE TRIED TO KEEP THOSE AS SEPARATE AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE KEPT THEM DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 238 ABREAST, AND I DO THAT CONTINUALLY WHEN THEY ASK, OR ANY ORGANIZATION ASKS WHAT ARE MY FINDINGS TO DATE, I DO MAKE THOSE PRESENTATIONS. BUT I THINK IT WAS -- SO, I THINK I'VE ANSWERED -- DID I ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? Q. NO, SIR, I DON'T THINK YOU DID. I THINK I ASKED YOU WAS IT EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY -- OR THAT THERE WOULD BE FORMAL LINES OF COMMUNICATION REGARDING KEEPING THE CONSULTANTS SEPARATE. YOU'VE EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT MR. WEDGWORTH WANTED, WHICH HE HAS EXPLAINED TO ME. AND YOU HAVE EXPLAINED TO ME WHY YOU FIND IT AN APPEALING PROCEDURE/PROTOCOL FOR YOUR PURPOSES AND FOR THE UNIVERSITY'S PURPOSES. BUT MY QUESTION WAS, DID MR. EARL, OR ANY OTHER ATTORNEY OR CONSULTANT ON BEHALF OF THAT FIRM OR THOSE CLIENTS, EXPLAIN TO YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE A PROTOCOL OF THIS TYPE? A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY SPECIFICS, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT I THINK FROM SEVERAL MEETINGS THAT WERE HELD, I MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR IN TERMS OF MY AREAS OF RESEARCH THAT THEY WERE OPEN TO PUBLIC FORUM. AND I THINK THE ATTORNEYS, IN CERTAIN AREAS, FELT THAT THEY NEEDED TO HAVE, I GUESS, ATTORNEY/CLIENT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 239 PRIVILEGE, AND SO THEREFORE THEY MADE A DECISION EARLY ON TO GO A SEPARATE WAY, AND USE A DIFFERENT SET OF CONSULTANTS TO DO SOME TYPES OF WORK. AND SINCE MY -- ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WENT TO THE EPD, SINCE MY WORK WAS GOING TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC ANYWAYS, THEY COULD USE THAT WORK AND THEN USE -- UTILIZE MY EXPERTISE TO HELP THEM SIMPLY SELECT OTHER PEOPLE, AND TO REVIEW DOCUMENTS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- SO, I'M SURE -- I MEAN, QUITE SURE THAT BY UTILIZING THAT STRATEGY, ESSENTIALLY, THAT IT KEPT ME SOMEWHAT IN THE DARK AS TO WHAT THEY WERE DOING, WHICH AT TIMES, YOU KNOW, FOR THEM, I SUPPOSE, WAS A BENEFIT. Q. OKAY. SO, THESE WERE MEETINGS HELD IN 188, 189, WHERE THIS SEPARATION OF SOME CONSULTANTS TO DO SOME TASKS, AND THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, AND YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE TO DO OTHER TASKS WAS DISCUSSED, AND THE INTERFACE BETWEEN THE TWO? A. WELL, THEY WEREN'T DISCUSSED WITH MY STAFF. I MEAN, BASICALLY, THEY DISCUSSED IT WITH ME. MY STAFF HAS ALWAYS BEEN KEPT ABSOLUTELY -- THEY HAVE NOT BEEN INVOLVED VERY MUCH WITH THAT. Q. WHEN YOU SAY "VERY MUCH," WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 240 A. THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED MEETINGS. THE EXCEPTION TO THAT, I THINK, MAY BE DR. RADER, WHO MAY HAVE ATTENDED A MEETING OR TWO. BUT DR. QUALLS AND MY STUDENTS AND DR. CRAFT, AND BOB JOHNSON, OTHER THAN JUST, SAY, MAYBE AN OCCASIONAL MEETING OR A LUNCH OR SOMETHING, THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED FORMAL MEETINGS, AND THAT WAS THE WAY -- WE HAVE HAD SOME -- WE HAVE HAD -- THEY'VE HAD SOME CONTACT WHEN, IN FACT, THEY WOULD BE OUT IN THE FIELD -- AS WE'VE HAD WITH ALMOST ANYONE -- THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, THE CO-OP, THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. ALL SORTS OF VISITORS COME TO OUR SITE AND ASK CAN WE GO ALONG ON A BOAT RIDE AND SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, OR CAN WE TAKE -- CAN YOU TAKE US OUT IN THE FIELD. AND SO WE'VE HAD A HOST OF PEOPLE, EPD PEOPLE, WHO ON SOME REGULAR BASIS -- WE JUST DON'T -- WE'RE NOT A TOUR OUTFIT, SO WE BASICALLY KEEP THAT A -- SO, I'M SAYING THEY MAY HAVE BEEN OUT IN THE FIELD WITH THEM FOR AN AFTERNOON WHEN THEY WERE DOING SOME WORK. Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND THE PERSON, DR. RICHARDSON, WHO HAS -- YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO NAME AT THAT ONE MEETING. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT YOU HAD RECOMMENDED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 241 A. ARE WE BACK TO--- Q. YEAH, WE'RE BACK TO -- I THINK THIS MAY BE THE LAST QUESTION ON THAT ONE. MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE RIGHT. A. YES, I BELIEVE SO. Q. OH. OF THE EXPERTS THAT THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND/OR THE CO-OP ARE USING IN THIS MATTER, I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHICH OF THEM YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED TO THEM. A. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL OF THE EXPERTS THEY ARE USING, SO. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET ME READ THEM TO YOU. A. I THINK--- Q. I'LL JUST READ THEM--- A. ALL RIGHT. Q. --- IT WON'T TAKE THAT LONG. WE'LL GO THROUGH THE LEAGUE'S LIST FIRST, AND THEN WE'LL GO THROUGH THE CO-OP'S LIST. A. OKAY. Q. DO YOU RECALL WHY YOU RECOMMENDED THE SECRET EXPERT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. DO I RECALL WHY? Q. YES, UH-HUH (YES). A. YES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 242 Q. WHY? MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER IT. MS. PONZOLI: BASED ON THAT WOULD REVEAL SOME STRATEGY OF THE LEAGUE? MR. BURGESS: YES. THIS IN RESPONSE TO MY QUESTION. YOU'VE GOT IT. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. POLOPOLUS, DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. POLOPOLUS? I'M JUST GOING TO GIVE THEIR NAMES, AND YOU CAN TELL ME YES OR NO. A. I'D LIKE TO -- DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS ONE? LOOKING AT IT AT THE SAME TIME, IT WOULD HELP ME WITH THAT. Q. NO, I HAVE A SINGLE COPY. I DON'T KNOW. MS. PONZOLI: DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE A LIST OF THE LEAGUE'S EXPERT WITNESSES AND THE CO-OP'S EXPERT WITNESSES? MR. KILLINGER: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM I CAN GO GET IT. MR. GREEN: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM. A. DOES SOMEONE NEED ONE? MS. PONZOLI: WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT -- DO YOU MIND GETTING YOURS AND I'LL JUST START CALLING THEM OUT, THEN, UNTIL YOU GET HERE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 243 WITNESS: THIS SOMETIMES HELPS ME. MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU MIND IF WE DO THAT? DO YOU WANT US TO WAIT FOR YOU, LEE? MR. KILLINGER: YEAH, IT'LL JUST BE A BRIEF SECOND. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. (MR. KILLINGER LEAVES THE ROOM BRIEFLY TO GO GET A DOCUMENT.) MS. PONZOLI: YOU CAN START LOOKING SO THAT IT'LL GO FASTER. WITNESS: NOW, THE QUESTION IS, WHICH ONES--- MS. PONZOLI: I'M GOING TO WANT TO KNOW WHICH OF THESE PEOPLE YOU RECOMMENDED. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MR. KILLINGER: IS THAT THE RIGHT DATE ON THERE? MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT ONE. MR. KILLINGER: IT MAY NOT BE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 244 MS. PONZOLI: IT'S THE PRELIMINARY DISCLOSURE. THERE'S ABOUT THREE OF THEM, LEE. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, WE CAN -- CAN WE STAND TOGETHER AND JUST GO OVER THEM PRETTY RAPIDLY, DR. RICHARDSON; WOULD THAT WORK FOR YOU? A. DO YOU HAVE A LIST YOURSELF NOW, OR NO? Q. UH-HUH (YES). WELL, NO, I DON'T HAVE A LIST, I'LL JUST STAND--- A. OH, OKAY. YOU WANT TO--- Q. YOU KNOW, I'LL JUST COVER--- A. --- OKAY. YOU WANT TO LOOK OVER MY SHOULDER HERE. OKAY. I'LL LOOK OVER YOUR SHOULDER, SURE, WE'LL JUST MOVE RIGHT THROUGH THIS, BECAUSE I CAN'T IMAGE YOU RECOMMENDED ALL THESE PEOPLE, YEAH. DR. RICHARDSON, MY QUESTION IS, IS WHICH OF THESE EXPERTS DID YOU RECOMMEND TO THE LEAGUE, AND I'LL JUST CALL OUT THE NAME AND YOU CAN SAY YES OR NO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 245 A. OKAY. Q. DR. LEO POLOPOLUS? A. NO. Q. DR. JAMES RICHARDSON? A. NO. Q. DR. JOHN DAVIS? A. NO. Q. DR. MICHAEL DENNIS? A. NO. Q. DOC -- NO -- MR. HOWELL? A. NO. Q. MR. LARSON? A. NO. Q. DR. PATRICK? A. I MENTIONED HIS NAME. Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU -- YOU WERE THE ONE WHO INTRODUCED DR. PATRICK, OR YOU JUST MENTIONED HIS NAME? A. WELL, THEY'VE ASKED -- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, I HAVE BEEN ASKED FROM TIME TO TIME CERTAIN PEOPLE, AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY CONTACTED THEM FIRST, I DON'T KNOW. I CAN ONLY SAY WHETHER I RECOMMENDED THEM OR NOT. Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. PATRICK FOR? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 246 MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. HE NEVER SAID HE RECOMMENDED HIM FOR ANYTHING. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT DID YOU MENTION DR. PATRICK FOR--- A. I SAID--- Q. --- DR. RICHARDSON? A. --- I SAID HE WAS ONE OF THE LEADING WETLANDS SOIL SCIENTISTS IN THE COUNTRY IN BIOGEOCHEMICAL CYCLING. Q. OKAY. IS HE BEING USED FOR THOSE PURPOSES, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? A. I ONLY KNOW IN GENERAL TERMS OF WHAT HE'S DOING. Q. WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE DR. PATRICK IS DOING? A. SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THAT I'M DOING. IN GENERAL, HE'S REVIEWING DOCUMENTS FOR THE GROUP. I THINK HE MADE A PRESENTATION ON -- AT THE SAGE MEETING -- ON THE CALCIUM WORK HE WAS DOING. AND HE ORIGINALLY DID THE CESIUM 137 WORK FOR A. DR. REDDY SINCE DR. REDDY CANNOT DO THAT WORK IN HIS LABORATORY. Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK DONE ANY MERCURY WORK, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IN THE EAA? A. I SAW A PRESENTATION THAT HE GAVE, I BELIEVE, AT A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 247 MERCURY CONFERENCE IN FLORIDA WHERE HE PRESENTED SOME DATA. AND I BELIEVE THAT DATA WAS TAKEN ON SOME CROP SPECIES, AND I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN THE EAA. SO, HE HAD -- HIS LABORATORY HAD ANALYZED SOME MERCURY. Q. HAVE YOU EVER COLLABORATED WITH DR. PATRICK ON ANY MERCURY WORK? A. NO, I HAVE NOT. Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK EVER REVIEWED ANY MERCURY WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE? A. THAT'S HARD TO SAY. Q. WELL, THAT YOU KNEW THAT HE WAS REVIEWING, NOT THAT HE -- YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF? A. NOTHING HE'S EVER INFORMED ME. Q. RIGHT. OR, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU SENT TO HIM FOR REVIEW? A. NO. Q. OKAY. IS TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS DR. PATRICK DOING ANY FIELDWORK ON LIMESTONE DITCHES? A. I THINK HE HAS A PROJECT THAT HE-S WORKING WITH, I THINK, IN CONJUNCTION WITH ONE OF THE SUGAR COMPANIES. I BELIEVE HE HAS A FIELD PROJECT THAT HE'S WORKING ON. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 248 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT'S LOCATED? A. I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE; I HAVE NOT SEEN IT. Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT'S BEEN GOING ON? A. I'D SAY YOU'RE PROBABLY TALKING A YEAR MAYBE, SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. IT COULD BE A LITTLE LONGER; IT COULD BE A LITTLE SHORTER, BUT THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION. Q. SURE. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY RESULTS FROM THAT FIELDWORK? A. I DON'T THINK I'VE SEEN -- THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME GENERAL COMMENTS MADE ABOUT IT, BUT I DON'T THINK I'VE SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT. I DONFT -- TO MY KNOWLEDGE, I HAVEN'T. I'M TRYING THINK. I'VE NOT SEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN ON THAT. MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, WE WOULDN'T OBJECT TO YOU READING FROM THE LIST AND PASSING BACK AND FORTH AND SITTING IN THE SEAT THAT YOU BEGAN THE DEPOSITION FROM. MS. PONZOLI: OH, I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM DOING IT THAT WAY, EITHER. DR. RICHARDSON HAD WANTED TO READ FROM THE LIST, MR. GREEN. IF YOU WOULD RATHER I--- MR. GREEN: I UNDERSTAND. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 249 MS. PONZOLI: --- RETURN, I'LL BE HAPPY TO. MR. GREEN: I WOULD RATHER YOU RETURN, THANK YOU. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT WERE THE GENERAL COMMENTS, DR. RICHARDSON, THAT YOU REFERRED TO OF DR. PATRICK OR ABOUT DR. PATRICK? MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU LIFE TO GET YOUR LIST, MR. GREEN, SO THAT WE WOULD BE ABLE TO EACH HAVE ONE, OR WOULD YOU RATHER YOUR WITNESS JUST ANSWER ME FROM, MY READING OUT THE NAMES? MR. GREEN: I THOUGHT HE HAD A COPY OF THE LIST THERE? MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S MY COPY. MR. GREEN: OH. MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S THE PROBLEM. MR. GREEN: SURE, I'LL GET IT. GIVE ME A. FIVE MINUTES. WITNESS: ARE WE STILL ON THE RECORD, OR ARE WE OFF THE RECORD? MS. PONZOLI: NO, WE'RE OFF THE RECORD. MR. BURGESS: WEFRE OFF THE RECORD. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 250 (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) WITNESS: OKAY, WHERE ARE WE? OH, WE NEVER GOT -- WE'RE STILL -- I ASSUME WE'RE STILL ON PATRICK. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. WE'RE UP TO DR. PATRICK, THE COMMENTS, THE QUESTION -- THE PENDING--- MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU READ BACK THE PENDING QUESTION TO DR. RICHARDSON--- Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE PENDING QUESTION? A. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? Q. WHAT'S THE MATTER? WHAT WERE THE GENERAL COMMENTS? DO YOU REMEMBER, DR. RICHARDSON, THE QUESTION? (THEREUPON, THE QUESTION APPEARING ON PAGE 249, LINES 7-9, INCLUSIVE, WAS REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. THE GENERAL COMMENTS WERE -- AS I SAID, I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT THE PROJECT. MY RECOLLECTION WAS THE PROJECT WAS -- WAS BEING PUT INTO PLACE, OR WAS IN PLACE, AND THAT THEY WERE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 251 STARTING TO COLLECT DATA AT THIS ONE FIELD LOCATION, I BELIEVE IT WAS, AND SOME GENERAL THINGS, I THINK, ABOUT THE SIZE OF IT AND SO FORTH. Q. WAS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT IT WAS BEING SUCCESSFUL OR NOT? A. I THINK THERE WAS SOME OPTIMISM, YES, THAT IT WAS SUCCESSFUL. Q. IS THIS ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES? REMEMBER, I KEPT TRYING TO GET YOU TO TELL ME WHAT ALTERNATIVES YOU WERE IN FAVOR OF? A. I THINK THE USE OF LIMESTONE OR CALCIUM WAS MENTIONED AS A POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE, NOT THE SPECIFIC RESEARCH PROJECT. I THINK I WOULD HAVE RECOMMENDED RESEARCH BE DONE ON THIS TYPE OF TOPIC FOR SURE. BUT I CAN'T SAY THAT I SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THE EXACT APPROACH THEY'RE USING, BUT IT WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I ASSUM@E. Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT ENDORSING THIS PARTICULAR ALTERNATIVE AT THIS TIME? A. NO, NOT AS -- I'M ENDORSING THE IDEA OF DOING AND TRYING AS MANY OF THESE TECHNIQUES AS POSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH AS GOOD A SOLUTION AS POSSIBLE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 252 Q. IS THIS FIELD STUDY, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS IT A FIELD APPLICATION OF LABORATORY WORK THAT DR. PATRICK HAS DONE? A. IT MAY VERY WELL BE AN EXTENSION OF WHAT HE PRESENTED AS SOME LABORATORY WORK THAT HE HAD DONE. THAT WOULD BE THE WAY THAT I WOULD ASSESS THAT. Q. OKAY. DR. RADER IS THE NEXT PERSON ON MY LIST. DID YOU RECOMMEND THAT DR. RADER BE INCLUDED AMONG THEIR TESTIFYING WITNESSES? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I DID OR DIDN'T. I THINK IN TERMS--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION BEFORE HE ANSWERS IT. MS. PONZOLI: WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE FORM? MR. BURGESS: THAT HE SOMEHOW OBJECTED AS TO WHO -- THAT HE SOMEHOW RECOMMENDED AS TO WHO SHOULD TESTIFY IN THIS CASE. A. WITNESS: SO, THE QUESTION IS, DID I RECOMMEND HIM? MS. PONZOLI: YES, SIR. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM, IF THAT'S THE QUESTION. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 253 A. AS AN EXPERT, I THINK I MAY HAVE BEEN ASKED WHETHER DR. RADER -- WAS IT MY OPINION WHETHER DR. RADER -- I GUESS -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'D SAY -- HIS WORK IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA WAS. YOU KNOW, A LARGE -- WAS IT A LARGE DATABASE, HOW IT WAS DONE, WHETHER HE WAS AN EXPERT IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA; AND I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT HE WOULD BE. Q. ARE YOU INDICATING THAT THE ATTORNEYS SOLICITED THE USE OF DR. RADER FROM YOU, IS THAT YOUR TESTIMONY? A. I THINK THEY -- NO, I'M NOT SURE -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT WAY IN WHICH THIS WAS DONE, WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT -- AND I'M JUST TRYING TO THINK OF HOW THAT WAS DONE. I THINK THEY ACTUALLY WENT TO DR. RADER AND ASKED WHETHER HE WOULD BE WILLING TO BE AN EXPERT IN THIS PARTICULAR AREA. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, DID YOU EVER SIT AND HELP PUT THE BIG PICTURE TOGETHER, AND FIGURE OUT WHAT KINDS OF EXPERTS WERE NEEDED, AND REBUTTAL EXPERTS, EXPERTS THAT HAD BEEN LISTED BY OTHER PARTIES, DID YOU EVER PERFORM--- A. NO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 254 Q. --- THAT FUNCTION? A. NO. Q. HOW DID YOU COME ABOUT RECOMMENDING EXPERTS TO THE ATTORNEYS? A. WELL, ACTUALLY, I DID NOT GO IN WITH A PERCEIVED IDEA OF RECOMMENDING EXPERTS. WHAT HAPPENS IS, WHEN I WOULD MAKE PRESENTATIONS FROM TIME TO TIME, THE WAY IT NORMALLY WOULD OCCUR IS PEOPLE WOULD SAY WHAT DO I PERCEIVE AS AN AREA; WHAT IS AN AREA OF INTEREST; WHAT IS AN AREA OF UNKNOWN; WHAT IS AN AREA OF A POTENTIAL PROBLEM; WHAT IS -- AND AS I WOULD REVIEW DOCUMENTS, WHAT IS AN AREA -- IN SOME CASES, WHO MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE. LIKE I MENTIONED THE OTHER DAY, BMPIS, WHO MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE. AND I THINK -- WHEN I TALKED TO THEM, I SAID IT WOULD BE MY RECOMMENDATION THAT BMP'S WOULD BE LOOKED AT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. AND THEY -- OF COURSE, THEN THEIR NEXT QUESTION IS, IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHO WOULD DO THIS; AND I GAVE A. THEM SOME NAMES. AND I WOULD QUITE OFTEN GIVE THEM A LIST OF NAMES. AND THEY WOULD SELECT FROM THAT LIST OF NAMES. QUITE OFTEN, THAT WAS A VERBAL LIST. SOMETIMES IT WAS ONE NAME, SOMETIMES IT WAS A LIST OF NAMES. BUT AFTER THEY WERE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 255 SELECTED, SOMETIMES I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THEY HAD SELECTED. IN FACT, SOME OF THESE, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE SEEN ACTUALLY A FULL, COMPLETE LIST. Q. RIGHT. HAS THIS BEEN SORT OF AN ITERATIVE PROCESS SINCE 1988, 1989, WHERE YOU HAVE REVIEWED DOCUMENTS AND MADE RECOMMENDATIONS OVER TIME? A. NO. IN THE BEGINNING, AS I SAID, WHEN WE STARTED THIS, I DON'T -- I DON'T BELIEVE THE CASE HAD EVEN BEEN FILED. Q. WELL, IT WAS FILED NOT TOO LONG AFTER--- A. NOT TOO LONG AFTER THAT. Q. --- YOUR EARLY DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. WEDGWORTH. A. BUT EARLY ON, I DID NOT -- I THINK, AS I SAID BEFORE, WHAT HAPPENED IN SOME OF THOSE EARLY MEETINGS, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO BE WORKING PRIMARILY AS A CONSULTANT ON THE LITIGATION CASE. I WAS NOT DOING THE: -- AND THAT WAS NOT MY ROLE, AND I HAD MY RESEARCH TO DO. I HAD TOO MUCH TO DO AS IT WAS. SO, FROM TIME TO TIME, I BASICALLY WOULD MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS, AS I SAID, FROM THESE PRESENTATIONS. IT WASN'T -- IT WASN'T A FORMALIZED PROCESS; THEY WERE MORE SERENDIPITY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 256 Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DO YOU RECALL IS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU MADE THESE TYPES OF RECOMMENDATIONS, WHAT YEAR? A. PROBABLY -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN LATE f8@), '90, SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. I CAN'T SAY ONE MONTH OR ANOTHER. IT'S HARD TO SAY. AS I SAID, THERE WAS NO FORMAL -- THERE WAS NO FORMAL, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS NO FORMAL MEETING. Q. YOU DIDN'T MEET TWICE A YEAR TO GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS--- A. NO. Q. --- IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? A. NO. I WOULD MEET WITH EQC, OR I WOULD MEET WITH -- PRESENTATIONS THAT I WOULD MAKE, AND THEN SOMEONE WOULD ASK, BY THE WAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS, OR, OH, WE HADN'T REALIZED ABOUT THAT. Q. DID THE EQC AND/OR ANY OF THESE OTHER COMMITTEES MEET MAYBE ONCE A YEAR, AT LEAST? A. OH, I THINK THEY MEET SEVERAL -- WELL,, I THINK THEY MEET -- I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT SURE HOW OFTEN THEY MEET. THEY MAYBE MEET ONCE A MONTH, ONCE EVERY OTHER MONTH, I'M NOT SURE. BUT I DID NOT ATTEND VERY MANY OF THOSE MEETINGS. I WOULD ONLY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 257 BE ASKED TO ATTEND -- MAKE A PRESENTATION MAYBE TWICE A YEAR. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE. IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THAT MUCH. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE -- I DIDN'T REALLY KEEP A CLOSE PRACK. USUALLY I'D BE IN THE FIELD WORKING AND THEY WOULD SAY, COULD YOU COME BY ON THURSDAY AFTERNOON, AND THEY WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, A MEETING GOING ON, AND THEN I WOULD SIT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY FINISHED THEIR MEETING, AND THEN I WOULD COME FOR MY HOUR OR WHATEVER THE PRESENTATION--- Q. SURE. SURE. A. --- AND THEN THEY WOULD ASK ME TO LEAVE AGAIN, SINCE THEY WERE DISCUSSING. Q. SURE. AND WHO WOULD NORMALLY ATTEND THE EQC MEETINGS? A. THE EQC BOARD, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL IT. Q. BUT WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? A. ED BARBER; BOB BUKER; GEORGE WEDGWORTH, IN THE BEGINNING; FANJUL--- Q. WHICH ONE? A. ALEX. SOME PEOPLE -- BILL TARR; PHII, PARSONS; OCCASIONALLY BILL EARL. THERE ARE OTHER REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE LEAGUE, SOME OF THE SMALLER GROWERS, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 258 Q. MR. STEIN, FRITZ STEIN? A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN AT SOME OF THE EARLY MEETINGS. I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT ANY RECENT MEETINGS THAT I HAVE BEEN TO, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN TO ANY OF THOSE MEETINGS IN, GOSH, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHEN. Q. MR. BEARDSLEY? A. MR. BEARDSLEY. Q. RIGHT. A. I DON'T KNOW MR. BEARDSLEY. Q. MR. HUNDLEY? A. HUNDLEY. THE NAME SOUNDS FAMILIAR, BUT I DON'T KNOW. THERE ARE SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS WHO SIT ON THAT COMMITTEE WHO SAY ALMOST NOTHING. SO, I DON'T--- Q. MR. SCHLECHTER? A. THAT NAME -- I MEAN, THAT NAME DOESN'T RING A BELL, BUT--- Q. OKAY. WHAT DOES EQC STAND FOR? A. I BELIEVE IT'S THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY CONTROL, OR ENVIRONMENTAL SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. COMMITTEE? A. COMMITTEE. Q. AND WHAT'S THE PURPOSE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 259 A. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PURPOSE OF THAT MEETING IS -- AS IT WAS EXPLAINED TO ME BY GEORGE WEDGWORTH, WHICH I BELIEVE HE FOUNDED IT -- WAS TO MEET WITH THE PRINCIPALS OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVES TO TRY TO PREDETERMINE PENDING ENVIRONMENTAL AREAS OF CONCERN; TO TRY TO COME UP WITH THE RECOMMENDATIONS; TO TRY TO GATHER INFORMATION SO THAT THEY MAY BE ABLE TO RECTIFY PROBLEMS THAT MAY OCCUR. I WAS TOLD, FOR EXAMPLE, THAI' SOME OF THE EARLY WORK THEY HAD WORKED ON WAS AIR QUALITY IN ONE OF THE AREAS. I'VE NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT, BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY -- APPARENTLY ONE OF THE FIRST PROJECTS THEY WORKED ON. Q. ALL RIGHT. DID MR. GREEN EVER ATTEND ANY OF THESE MEETINGS, OR LAWYERS ATTEND ANY OF THESE MEETINGS? A. WELL, I THINK I SAID BILL EARL WAS AT--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- SOME OF THESE MEETINGS. Q. RIGHT. A. RICK BURGESS WAS AT SOME OF THESE MEETINGS. BILL TARR. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. I DON'T REMEMBER IF BILL GREEN ATTENDED. HE MAY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 260 HAVE ATTENDED ONE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE DID OR NOT. AS YOU KNOW, THE CO-OP IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE LEAGUE AT THE MOMENT, SO HE MAY NOT BE INVITED TO THOSE MEETINGS. I'M NOT PRIVY TO WHO GETS INVITED AND WHO DOESNFT. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU SAY YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE EQC WAS TO PREDETERMINE -- WHAT -- ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES OR THE -- NOW, THIS IS THE LEAGUE, THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE--- A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. --- IT'S A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. RIGHT. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. GATHER INFORMATION, RECTIFY PROBLEMS. WHAT -- IF IT WAS AN INFORMATION GATHERING, PROBLEM RECTIFYING, FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE, WHY THIS BUSINESS OF SEPARATING OUT WHO COULD ATTEND THE MEETING; ONE PERSON COULD COME III AT A TIME; HOW DID THAT COME TO BE? A. WELL, I'M, AGAIN, NOT PRIVY TO ALL OF THAT, BUT IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING -- I WAS TOLD NOT TO BE INSULTED, THAT MANY PEOPLE WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THE ROOM AT VARIOUS TIMES. AND PART OF THAT HAD TO DO, I THINK, WHEN INDIVIDUAL CONSULTANTS WERE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 261 BEING -- WERE PRESENTING INFORMATION. PART OF IT HAD TO DO WHEN THEY WOULD GO INTO, I THINK, SOME EXECUTIVE SESSION ON FUNDING, WHICH MOST ORGANIZATIONS DO. I BELIEVE--- Q. THE EQC HAD FUNDING RESPONSIBILITIES? A. WELL, I THINK THEY HAVE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL FUND. THEY GET REVIEWS ON MATERIALS, PROPOSALS, AND I THINK THEY HAVE TO MAKE INTERNAL DECISIONS, LIKE ANY ORGANIZATION, AND I BELIEVE WHEN THEY MAKE THOSE DECISIONS, THEY DO THAT -- AS I SAID, I'VE NEVER BEEN IN THERE WHEN THEY'VE DONE THAT, BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT AS AN EXECUTIVE SESSION THEY BASICALLY DO THAT. Q. RIGHT. IS IT THE EQC THAT FUNDS THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, WHEN THEY WERE FIRST FUNDED? WHEN THEY DID--- A. WELL, THE LEAGUE--- Q. --- THEIR FIRST--- A. --- THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- FUNDED IT. Q. BUT WAS IT THE EQC THAT WOULD APPROVE YOUR FIRST PROPOSAL, AND FUND--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 262 A. I BELIEVE SO. Q. --- YOUR FIRST YEAR'S WORK? A. I BELIEVE SO. THE PILOT PROJECT, I BELIEVE--- Q. THE PILOT PROJECT, OKAY. A. --- WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED THROUGH THE EQC COMMITTEE. Q. OKAY. DID YOU PRESENT IT TO THE EQC, AS YOU RECALL? A. YES, I -- WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, I MADE: AN ORAL PRESENTATION IN MY FIRST MEETING WITH SEVERAL MEMBERS, AND THEN -- THAT'S SO LONG AGO, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK I MADE A FORMAL ORAL PRESENTATION, AND, OF COURSE, A WRITTEN -- THEY HAD WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION. Q. ALL RIGHT. I HAD ASKED YOU TO BRING ME THAT FIRST PROPOSAL. WERE YOU ABLE TO LOCATE ONE, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I WAS BARELY ABLE TO GET MY CV. I HAVE LISA LOOKING TO FIND IT. Q. I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. AND JANE RAIKES, ARE WE STILL TRACKING THAT ONE DOWN? A. I AM NOW TRYING TO GET THAT FOR YOU, ALSO. Q. THANK YOU. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 263 A. I WILL DO MY BEST. Q. DOES THE EQC, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE -- DC) THEY ACTUALLY FUND DIRECTLY FROM THAT COMMITTEE, IF -- LIKE, SUCH AS YOUR PILOT PROJECT? WOULD THEY ACTUALLY FUND DIRECTLY THROUGH THAT ('OMMITTEE, OR WOULD IT BE FUNDED THROUGH THE ENTIRE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT INTERNALLY WORKS, HOW THEY DO THAT. I DO KNOW IT'S A RECOMMENDING BODY, AND IT -- OBVIOUSLY SOME OF THE PRIN(,IPLES INVOLVED. Q. OKAY. AND WHO TOLD YOU NOT TO BE INSULTED THAT YOU WERE BEING EXCLUDED FROM CERTAIN PORTIONS OF THE MEETINGS? A. OH, I THINK THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE. PEOPLE WHO WERE ALSO STANDING IN THE HALLWAY; PEOPLE WHO WERE COMING AND GOING HAVE BEEN TOLD AT VARIOUS TIMES, DON'T BE INSULTED, MANY PEOPLE ARE ASKED TO LEAVE. SOME ARE NOT ASKED TO RETURN. Q. DO YOU RECALL WHO ANY OF THESE OTHER PEOPLE STANDING OUT IN THE HALL WAITING WERE? A. NOT REALLY, IT WAS SO LONG AGO. BUT, I MEAN--- Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS SORT OF DIRECTLY, DR. RICHARDSON, JUST--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 264 MR. BURGESS: I HOPE ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ARE DIRECT. MS. PONZOLI: I THINK THEY ARE; I TRY TO BE. IT'S ONE OF MY FAULTS. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RADER IS A PAIL) CONSULTANT FOR ENVIRONMENTAL PERMITTING SERVICES, I GUESS. HE RECEIVES A MONTHLY STIPEND OR SALARY OR WHATEVER FOR SEVERAL YEARS. DO YOU ALSO RECEIVE A TYPE OF ONGOING CONSULTANT FEE? A. FROM? Q. ANY ENTITY. A. I MEAN, IT'S--- Q. DO YOU RECEIVE ONE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE -- I WOULD ASSUME WOULD BE MY MORE LIKELY GUESS? A. I AM PAID FOR MY SERVICES AS RENDEREE) ON A TASK BASIS, OR ON AN HOURLY BASIS. Q. BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. MANY PEOPLE. I DO CONSULTING NOT ONLY FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, BUT FOR--- Q. SURE. A. --- THE EPA, AND THE GOVERNMENT--- Q. SURE, I UNDERSTAND THAT, THAT YOU PROBABLY DO CONSULTING WORK FOR MANY DIFFERENT ENTITIES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 265 A. --- THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA. Q. RIGHT. WHEN I GO THROUGH YOUR CV, I'LL GO THROUGH THOSE OTHERS. BUT RIGHT NOW I'M REALLY FOCUSING ON THE EVERGLADES. AND I WOULD LIKE TO FOCUS ON, DOES THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE PAY YOU, ON AN HOURLY OR A DAILY BASIS, A CONSULTING FEE? A. YES. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT IS THAT? A. WELL, IT DEPENDS, AGAIN, ON THE TASK. I COULD BE PAID BY THE HOUR. Q. RIGHT. AND THAT WOULD BE HOW MUCH PER HOUR? A. IT DEPENDS ON THE JOB. IT RANGES FROM A HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS ($100.00 TO $150.00) AN HOUR FOR SCIENTIFIC WORK. Q. OKAY. AND THEN ARE YOU ALSO PAID ON A DAILY BASIS SOME CERTAIN TIMES? A. OCCASIONALLY. OCCASIONALLY, IT'S DONE -- DEPENDING ON HOW I DO CONSULTANCY WORK. CERTAIN TASKS SOMETIMES REQUIRE ONLY A COUPLE OF HOURS, BUT I HAVE TO LEAVE, YOU KNOW, AT SIX IN THE MORNING, AND DON'T GET HOME TILL TEN AT NIGHT, AND THERE MAY ONLY BE TWO HOURS OF ACTUAL WORK, BUT -- SO, I DO THAT, MAKE MORE ON A DAILY BASIS BECAUSE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 266 Q. SURE. A. ---IT WOULD NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO DO IT OTHERWISE, SO. Q. AND WHAT WOULD THE DAILY FEE BE? A. I GENERALLY CHARGE SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF -- IT DEPENDS -- A THOUSAND TO TWO THOUSAND A DAY. Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE THOUSAND TO TWO THOUSAND? A. WHETHER I HAVE TO DO WEEKENDS; WHETHER I HAVE TO DO LEGAL TESTIFYING, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THINGS LIKE THAT. Q. OKAY. WHEN WERE YOU FIRST -- WHEN DID YOU FIRST ENTER THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? IN WHICH YEAR? A. PROBABLY '89, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL. Q. OKAY. AND THEN WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, DR. RICHARDSON, IS FOR THE YEARS THAT YOU HAVE WORKED ON THESE MATTERS, I WOULD LIKE THE AMOUNT THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED FOR THIS CONSULTANT FEE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IN 1989, YOU RECEIVED HOW MUCH TOTAL CONSULTANT FEE? A. I DON'T HAVE IT BROKEN DOWN BY INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES, SO I REALLY WOULDN'T -- I REALLY DON'T DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 267 KNOW. Q. YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF YOU RECEIVED TEN THOUSAND OR TWENTY THOUSAND--- A. IN '89? Q. --- SIXTY THOUSAND, EIGHTY THOUSAND, A HUNDRED THOUSAND? A. WELL, I'M TRYING TO THINK. I REALLY DONFT KNOW. I HAVE NOT LOOKED AT MY TAX RECORDS FOR 189, SO I COULDNFT REALLY TELL YOU. I COULD SAY IT VARIES FROM QUARTER TO QUARTER; AND IT VARIES FROM TIME TO TIME, SO I REALLY DON'T KNOW, IN ALL HONESTY. WELL, I'M REALLY ENTITLED TO KNOW. CAN YOU CHECK THOSE RECORDS TONIGHT AND ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS TOMORROW, YOUR TAX RETURNS? MR. BURGESS: I DONFT THINE HE HAS AN OBLIGATION TO DO THAT, MS. PONZOLI. MS. PONZOLI: OH, I THINK HE DOES, MR. BURGESS; I THINK ABSOLUTELY I HAVE A A. RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT HE HAS RECEIVED IN CONSULTANT FEES. MR. BURGESS: YOU CAN'T GIVE MY WITNESSES HOMEWORK, MA'AM. YOU CANNOT GIVE MY WITNESSES HOMEWORK. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 268 MS. PONZOLI: I CAN REQUIRE THAT YOU TELL ME WHAT HE HAS BEEN PAID AS A CONSULTANT--- MR. BURGESS: YOU CAN ASK HIM QUESTIONS--- MS. PONZOLI: --- FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. MR. BURGESS: --- AND HE CAN ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS, BUT YOU CAN'T ASK HIM TO GO HOME AND DO HOMEWORK AND YOU KNOW IT. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, MR. BURGESS, WHAT HE MADE -- YOU'RE GOING TO ASK EVERY ONE OF MY PEOPLE, AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK YOURS. THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT'S UNKNOWN. IT ISN'T AN UNHEARD OF THING THAT PEOPLE ARE PAID FOR THESE TASKS, SO. MR. BURGESS: AND HE CAN ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY--19 MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. YOU'RE TELLING--- MR. BURGESS: --- WHICH HEFS TRYING TO DO. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, IS IT CLOSER TO A HUNDRED THOUSAND, DR. RICHARDSON, THAN TEN THOUSAND, FOR 589? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 269 A. WELL -- FOR 189? Q. YES, SIR. A. THE REASON I'M HESITATING, I CAN'T REMEMBER IN '89 EXACTLY, BECAUSE I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS '89 OR '90--- Q. WELL--- A. ---I DID -- BASICALLY, AS I SAID, I HAVE A NUMBER OF CONSULTANCIES, I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY THE AMOUNT--- Q. SURE. A. --- SO, IF YOU SAY -- IF YOU GIVE ME THAT RANGE, TEN TO A HUNDRED, IT'S PROBABLY CLOSER TO A HUNDRED THAN TEN, BUT. Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT 1990? A. AGAIN, THE SAME THING. Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK A HUNDRED IS PROBABLY A FAIR APPROXIMATION? A. NOT FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, NO. IT MAY BE FOR SOME OF THOSE YEARS. Q. IS IT LOW OR HIGH? A. WHAT? Q. THE HUNDRED. A. I DON'T KNOW. I--- Q. YOU DON'T KNOW? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 270 A. NO. Q. ALL RIGHT. FOR 1991, IS IT THE SAME? A. IT'S APPROXIMATELY IN THAT BALLPARK. Q. THE SAME IN 192? A. AGAIN, AS I SAID, I DONFT -- IT MAY BE IN THAT RANGE OF TEN TO A HUNDRED. Q. WELL, NO, WE HAD SAID, WAS IT CLOSER TO TEN OR CLOSER TO A HUNDRED, AND YOU SAID IT WOULD PROBABLY BE CLOSER TO A HUNDRED. SO, I'M ASSUMING IT'S CLOSER TO A HUNDRED FOR EACH OF THOSE YEARS SHORT OF YOUR MEMORY THAT IT WAS NOT. A. RIGHT. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. AS I SAID, IT VARIES FROM TIME TO TIME--- Q. SURE. A. --- SO, IF--- Q. DO YOU RECALL OVER THE PERIOD FROM 189 TO THE PRESENT WHAT YOUR CONSULTING FEES FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WOULD APPROXIMATELY TOTAL? A. NO. Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF IT'S FORTY THOUSAND OR FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND? A. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND. Q. AND YOU DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE FORTY THOUSAND? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 271 A. NO. Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE -- HAVE YOU ALREADY PREPARED YOUR TAX RETURN FOR APRIL? A. NO. Q. HAVE YOU RECEIVED YOUR W-2'S BACK? A. I DON'T KNOW. Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE RECEIVED YOUR FORMS BACK FROM YOUR VARIOUS EMPLOYERS? A. OH, THEY SELDOM -- THOSE SELDOM COME TILL ALMOST -- SOME OF THOSE COME A MONTH BEFORE THE DEADLINE. I HAVE FILED MY TAXES ON THE 15TH OF APRIL FOR YEARS. Q. OKAY. WELL, DR. RICHARDSON, WHETHER YOU ARE COMPELLED TO DO HOMEWORK OR NOT, I THINK I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO PLEASE REVIEW YOUR RECORDS AND GIVE ME AS ACCURATE AN ANSWER AS YOU CAN IN THE FOLLOWING DAYS. ALL RIGHT. YOU HAVE DONE THESE CONSULTANT HOURS, DAYS, FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I WOULD ASSUME THAT JUST AS DR. RADER HAS ALSO BEEN PAID A SEPARATE SALARY FOR BEING AN EXPERT WITNESS FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, THAT YOU ALSO, IS THAT ACCURATE OR NOT? MR. BURGESS: THAT YOU ALSO WHAT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 272 Q. ARE YOU ALSO PAID A SEPARATE FEE AS AN EXPERT WITNESS, OR IS THAT BURIED INTO THIS CONSULTANCY FEE? HE RECEIVES THREE SALARIES, DR. RICHARDSON. HE RECEIVES HIS DUKE WETLAND SALARY, HE RECEIVES A MONTHLY--- MR. BURGESS: IS THIS TESTIMONY; WHAT IS THIS? MS. PONZOLI: IT'S A QUESTION, MR. BURGESS--- MR. BURGESS: OKAY. LET'S GET TO IT. MS. PONZOLI: --- AND I'M NOT GETTING ANSWERS. Q. --- HE RECEIVES THREE SALARIES, AND I AM TRYING TO DETERMINE IF YOU RECEIVE THREE SEPARATE SALARIES, OR ONLY TWO--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- ONE THROUGH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER FOR THE WORK THAT'S DONE ON THE GRANT FOR THE EPD, AND FIRST FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND THEN ONE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. DID I CONFUSE YOU? A. YEAH, YOU -- START OVER AGAIN. Q. LET'S GO THROUGH YOUR SOURCES OF INCOME, THEN. YOU GET INCOME AS AN EMPLOYEE OF DUKE AS A TENURED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 273 PROFESSOR? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. THAT'S HOW MUCH? A. WELL--- MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK HE NEEDS TO ANSWER THAT. MS. PONZOLI: OH, I THINK HE DOES. MR. BURGESS: I DON'T. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, ARE YOU INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER? MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT. IT'S UP TO HIM. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. MR. GREEN: WELL, JUST AS A POINT OF ORDER, WITHOUT AGREEING OR DISAGREEING WITH ANYONE, I'D LIKE TO NOTE THAT MR. McCAUGHAN, THE COUNSEL FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY, IS NOT PRESENT, AND IT WOULD PROBABLY BE BEST TO WAIT UNTIL HE IS TO ASK THESE QLJESTIONS, BECAUSE TO THE EXTENT THAT SOME OF THIS INFORMATION MAY BE PRIVILEGED, HE WOULD BE THE ONE, AT LEAST IN PART, THAT WOULD BE ENTITLED TO MAKE OBJECTIONS AS OPPOSED TO ME, FOR EXAMPLE. MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES). WELL, THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 274 DEPOSITION BEGAN AT NINE, AND IT'S NEARLY TEN-THIRTY, AND MR. McCAUGHAN SAID THAT WE COULD START WITHOUT HIM, MR. GREEN, AND I HAVE BEEN ENORMOUSLY PATIENT WITH WAITING FOR OTHER COUNSEL FOR MY DEPOSITIONS TO BEGIN, SO. MR. GREEN: I AGREE THAT YOU HAVE, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT WE'VE BEEN IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE BEFORE IN THIS DEPOSITION, AND IT IS SCHEDULED FOR UP TO FIVE DAYS, AND I THINK OUT OF RESPECT FOR OTHER COUNSEL, THAT IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO DELAY THIS UNTIL HE'S PRESENT. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, THEN I'LL ASK YOUR SALARY AS A TENURED PROFESSOR WHEN MR. McCAUGHAN RETURNS IN DEFERENCE TO MR. GREEN'S SENSITIVITY. MR. GREEN: THANK YOU. WITNESS: OKAY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) BUT, I WOULD LIKE 9'0 GO ON TO YOUR OTHER SOURCES OF INCOME. I WANT TO KNOW -- ALL RIGHT, SO YOU RECEIVE A TENURED FIROFESSORIS SALARY, IS THAT RIGHT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 275 Q. OKAY. AND THEN THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER PROVIDES YOU WITH -- DOES IT PROVIDE YOU WITH A SEPARATE SALARY, OR DOES EACH GRANT THAT'S DONE UNDER THERE PROVIDE YOU WITH A SALARY? A. NO, YOU HAVE -- WE HAVE A SINGLE SALARY FROM THE UNIVERSITY. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO, NOW, THE GRANT FROM THE EPD WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH A SALARY, IS THAT RIGHT? A. NO. NO. WHEN YOU'RE A PROFESSOR AT A UNIVERSITY, YOU HAVE ONE SALARY. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND THE SALARY IS A BASE SALARY. Q. RIGHT. A. AND HOW YOU RECEIVE THAT SALARY -- IN OTHER WORDS, IF I GET TEN BILLION DOLLARS ($10,000,000,000.00) OF GRANTS--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. Q. RIGHT. A. I GET A BASE SALARY. OKAY. NOW, THE SOURCE OF WHERE THE SALARIES COME FROM CAN VARY, BUT THAT'S ALL YOU CAN GET. ALL RIGHT. SO, WHATEVER YOUR BASE SALARY IS -- EVEN IF IT'S PROVIDED BY THE EPD -- THE UNIVERSITY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 276 JUST SORT OF GETS A FREE RIDE--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE--- Q. --- IS THAT ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENS? MR. BURGESS: --- OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. NOT A FREE RIDE. I MEAN, BASICALLY, THIS IS A STANDARD WAY UNIVERSITIES OPERATE. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY FREE RIDE. Q. WELL, IF -- WELL, I CAN GO THROUGH YOUR DOCUMENTS WITH YOU AND SHOW YOU THAT THERE'S A SALARY ALLOTTED TO YOU--- A. YES. Q. --- IN FACT, I CAN GIVE YOU THAT NUMBER, IF THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO THIS DISCUSSION, AND MAYBE THAT WOULD SAVE US WAITING FOR MR. McCAUGHAN. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE AMOUNT I'M TALKING ABOUT? IT'S FORTY-EIGHT THOUSAND, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I CAN'T REMEMBER. WITNESS: COULD YOU JUST SHOW ME WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO? A. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. PROJECT DIRECTOR, DR. RICHARDSON -- THIS IS THE 193 BUDGET FROM DOCUMENT NUMBER ONE. DO I HAVE THESE? IFLL PASS THEM OUT. LET ME GIVE YOU ONE, DR. RICHARDSON, AND YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 277 CAN START LOOKING AT IT, AND SEE IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY IT. MR. GREEN: WILL THIS BE EXHIBIT ONE? MR. REID: NO, IT'LL BE EXHIBIT THREE. MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE RIGHT. MR. GREEN: THANK YOU. MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE RIGHT. NO, YOU'RE RIGHT, MR. REID. WITNESS: I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE HERE. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT? A. THIS DOCUMENT? Q. YES, SIR. A. LET ME LOOK AT IT HERE. Q. OKAY. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) Q. WELL, JUST SO THIS WILL BE ORDERLY AND I WON'T FORGET, DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT--- A. THIS--- Q. --- IT'S A COMPOSITE DOCUMENT. A. WELL, I WAS GOING TO SAY -- BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF PIECES THAT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 278 I MEAN, YOU'RE SAYING A PIECE OF IT. AND THE FIRST PIECE -- THE FIRST PIECE THAT I CAN RECOGNIZE IS OBVIOUSLY A LETTER FROM APRIL 20, '92, TO CHARLES HAAS. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO? Q. NO, SIR. THIS IS -- I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I BELIEVE THIS IS, AND THEN YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT YOU CAN IDENTIFY AND WHAT YOU CAN'T. THESE ARE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE PRODUCED TO THE UNITED STATES. YOU WILL NOTICE AT THE BOTTOM THEY ARE BATES NUMBERED, A SERIES FROM 0009422 THROUGH 0009439. AND IT IS -- AT LEAST MY BELIEF AS I SIT HERE -- THAT THIS WAS A FILE FROM YOUR FILES, BECAUSE IT WAS PRODUCED WITH YOUR DOCUMENTS TO THE UNITED STATES AND BATES STAMPED. NOW, IN ORDER FOR ME TO HAVE IT ATTACHED TO THE RECORD, I NEED FOR YOU TO IDENTIFY IT, AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO MARK IT AS A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT. I GUESS WHAT WOULD BE USEFUL IS IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE WHOLE FILE AS YOURS, IF YOU WOULD JUST SIMPLY TELL US THAT, AND THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE VERY FEW DOCUMENTS I'M INTERESTED IN. OTHERWISE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO IDENTIFY WHAT IS AND WHAT ISN'T YOURS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 279 A. I UNDERSTAND. AND I'M TRYING TO LOOK AT IT. I HAVEN'T SEEN THIS. THE REASON I'M SAYING THIS IS THIS APPEARS TO BE ACTUALLY OUT OF MY ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT'S FILE. Q. RIGHT. A. AND SO -- SHE KEEPS RECORDS -- SHE KEEPS THOSE RECORDS FOR ME, SO I -- I AM NOT INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH EVERY SINGLE FILE THAT SHE HAS, AND IN WHAT ORDER. IN FACT, AS I TOLD YOU THIS MORNING, SHE HAD TO FIND THE CURRICULUM VITAE. IT APPEARS TO BE -- I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHICH PARTICULAR FILE IT IS. IT APPEARS TO BE A FILE THAT'S RELATED TO THE EPD. AND IF YOU'LL NOTICE, LIKE THE FIRST LETTER, I DIDN'T EVEN SIGN IT; THAT WAS SIGNED BY LISA PHELPS, AND THAT WAS SENT ON MY BEHALF. SO, THAT -- AND THE SECOND ONE ARE SOME HAND NOTES, THAT ARE NOT MINE. THE SAME WITH THE THIRD, THE FOURTH; THOSE -- NONE OF THOSE ARE MY NOTES. THE NEXT LETTER IS A LETTER THAT I SENT TO ART KIRSTEIN. SO, I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS A EPD FILE. I'D HAVE TO READ THE LETTERS IN DETAIL TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT IT IS, BUT IT'S CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN MYSELF AND ART KIRSTEIN AND CHUCK HAAS FOR THE EPD. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 280 MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S MARK THIS AS RICHARDSON COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER THREE. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 3 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHERE WE WERE WAS I WAS TRYING TO GET AT THE VARIOUS SALARIES, OR STIPENDS, OR WHATEVER THAT YOU RECEIVE--- A. OKAY. Q. --- AND I SEE THAT THERE IS UNDER THE BUDGET FOR '93, A TOTAL BUDGET OF NINE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-THREE THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED AND EIGHTY-SEVEN DOLLARS ($923,787.00). A PROJECT DIRECTOR'S SALARY AND WAGE OF FORTY-SEVEN THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE ($47,979.00). A. CORRECT. NOW, DO YOU RECEIVE THAT MONEY DR. RICHARDSON? A. AS PART OF MY TOTAL UNIVERSITY SALARY, I RECEIVE SOME PORTION OF THAT SALARY. Q. YOU DON'T GET THE WHOLE FORTY-SEVEN NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE? A. IT'S VERY LIKELY THAT I WOULD NOT RECEIVE THE WHOLE FORTY-SEVEN NINE SEVENTY-NINE, BUT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 281 REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I DID OR I DIDN'T, IF MY BASE SALARY -- LETFS JUST SAY HYPOTHETICALLY -- WAS SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- I WOULD GET SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND FROM THE UNIVERSITY. Q. AND THEN THEY WOULD, LIKE, PRORATE YOUR VARIOUS SALARIES AND WAGES FROM YOUR VARIOUS GRANTS TOWARD THAT SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- OR WHAT? A. CORRECT--- Q. OKAY. A. --- THEY COULD DO THAT. BUT I -- MY BASE SALARY FROM THE UNIVERSITY IS -- AND THAT IS ON A NINE-MONTH BASIS, AND THAT IS PRIMARILY PAID BY THE UNIVERSITY FOR DIRECTOR RESPONSIBILITIES, FOR TEACHING, FOR GUIDANCE STUDENTS, FOR THE NORMAL PROFESSORIAL ACTIVITIES. AND THERE ARE AN ADDITIONAL AT DUKE UNIVERSITY, THERE'S AN ADDITIONAL SINCE WE'RE NOT PAID IN THE SUMMERTIME -- AN ADDITIONAL PERIOD OF TIME WHICH WE'RE ALLOWED TO DO RESEARCH GRANTS TO SUPPLEMENT OUR BASE SALARY. THIS IS WHAT PART DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 282 OF THIS WOULD COME FROM. Q. WOULD THIS GO INTO YOUR SUMMER RESEARCH GRANT SALARY, IS THAT THE WAY--- A. PART OF IT COULD--- Q. ---YOU THINK IT MIGHT WORK? A. --- PART OF IT COULD. AND PART OF IT COULD-BE BASED BACK TOWARDS MY BASE SALARY. I DON'T -- AND THE REASON -- I'M NOT HESITATING -- THE REASON THAT I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT IS BECAUSE IT SHIFTS FROM SEMESTER TO SEMESTER DEPENDING UPON THE UNIVERSITY'S ACCOUNTING, MY ACTIVITIES. SO, AT ANY ONE PARTICULAR TIME IF YOU ASK ME WHERE MY BASE SALARY COMES FROM, I COULDN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY PENNY FOR PENNY WHERE IT COMES FROM. WELL, DESPITE WHERE YOUR BASE SALARY COMES FROM, IF I HEAR YOU RIGHT, YOU'RE TELLING ME THE NINE-MONTH SALARY CAN EXCEED THIS, FOR EXAMPLE, SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND, IF THAT WERE YOU BASE SALARY. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I'M NOT SURE I FOLLOWED YOU. REPEAT THAT, PLEASE. DR. RICHARDSON, I'M NOT MAKING THIS HARD; THIS COULD BE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 283 A. I KNOW. Q. --- VERY EASY. A. I UNDERSTAND, BUT I'M JUST TRYING TO BE CLEAR. Q. I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE UNIVERSITY REIMBURSES YOU; I WANT To KNOW HOW MUCH THE EPD REIMBURSES YOU FOR THE SERVICES THAT YOU PROVIDE; I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE REIMBURSES YOU; I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE COOPERATIVE AND/OR IF THE LEAGUE GIVES YOU A SEPARATE ADDITIONAL SALARY. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO KNOW. A. OKAY. WELL, ASK THEM IN ORDER. I MEAN, I'VE TOLD YOU I HAVE A BASE SALARY, AND I HAVE--- Q. AND YOU WON'T TELL -- AND COUNSEL BELIEVE I CANNOT GET--- A. I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO WAIT FOR RALPH McCAUGHAN TO APPEAR. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU'RE EXPLAINING TO ME THAT THAT BASE SALARY WORKS IN SOME FAIRLY ESOTERIC WAYS AT LEAST A. TO LAYMEN WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM? A. BUT ITTS A VERY STANDARD WAY. I THINK IF YOU ASK DR. KADLEC OR ANY OTHER PROFESSOR, IT'S A VERY STANDARD PROCEDURE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 284 Q. OKAY. A. --- FOR MOST UNIVERSITIES WHO ARE MAJOR RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES. IT'S A VERY STANDARD PROCEDURE. Q. OKAY. A. SO, THERE'S NOTHING MAGIC ABOUT IT, BUT--- Q. I ACCEPT THAT. I ACCEPT THAT IT'S DONE THAT WAY. I REALIZE THERE'S SOME WAY THEY DO THESE THINGS, AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND. I GUESS IF YOU CAN EXPLAIN IT TO ME -- IF YOU WERE ALLOWED TO GIVE ME THE ACTUAL FIGURES, THAT WOULD PROBABLY HELP. ALL RIGHT. MAYBE -- WAIT A MINUTE. (THEREUPON, MS. PONZOLI CONFERS WITH HER EXPERTS.) (BY MS. PONZOLI) I HAVE BEEN ADVISED THAT I'M GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME DOING THIS WITHOUT YOUR BASE SALARY, BUT I'M GOING TO KEEP TRYING. DO YOU RECEIVE BY THE END OF THE YEAR THIS FORTY-SEVEN NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE ($47,979.00), ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, IN THE SUMMER OR IT'S APPLIED TO YOUR BASE SALARY DURING THE YEAR, DR. RICHARDSON? A. WELL, THIS IS '93, SO I HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER I WILL OR WILL NOT RECEIVE THIS. Q. WAS IT SIMILAR IN '92, YOUR BASE SALARY? BECAUSE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 285 I CAN RECONSTRUCT IT FROM OTHER DOCUMENTS IF YOU WANT ME TO. A. WELL, IT GOES UP BY SOME PERCENTAGE, BUT WHETHER--- Q. FIVE PERCENT (5%)? A. I THINK IT'S FIVE PERCENT (5%) --- Q. RIGHT. A. --- SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. OKAY. SO, IF WE TOOK FIVE PERCENT (5%) OFF OF THIS, WE'D HAVE LAST YEAR'S--- A. NOT NECESSARILY, BECAUSE WHAT I DO IS -- ON THIS PARTICULAR SALARY -- I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS MORE DIFFICULT -- BUT WHAT I DO FOR THIS PARTICULAR THING IS WE BASICALLY -- I HAVE A BASE SALARY, AND I MAY GO IN AND, SAY, TAKE FIVE PERCENT (5%) FROM THIS, CARRY THIS OVER, I NEED TO COVER -- IN THE SALARIES AND WAGES COMPARTMENT, AND THE WAY GRANTS WORK, I CAN TELL YOU, FOR INSTANCE, THAT THE SALARIES THAT ARE LISTED THERE FOR THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT EXACT. IN FACT, IN SOME CASES, THEY'RE CONSIDERABLY HIGHER THAN THE TIME THAT THEY HAVE SPENT ON THOSE, IT JUST DEPENDS. SOME PEOPLE MAY BE GETTING MORE; SOME PEOPLE MAY BE GETTING LESS OF THOSE SALARIES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 286 Q. IS WHAT YOUTRE TELLING ME IS THAT WITHIN THE GRANT, YOU HAVE CERTAIN FREEDOM TO SHIFT THE FUNDS AROUND, AND--- A. YES. AND, QUITE OFTEN, I WILL TAKE PORTIONS OF MY SALARY AND GIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE, ESPECIALLY IF THEY THREATEN TO LEAVE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH MONEY--- Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S JUST ASSUME -- LET'S ASSUME THAT FOR PURPOSES OF--- A. --- OR HAVE A BETTER OFFER. Q. --- OUR DISCUSSION THAT YOU HAVE NOT NEEDED TO SHIFT FUNDS, OKAY, THAT YOU'VE LEFT THEM PRETTY MUCH IN PLACE, THE BUDGET, YOU KNOW, IS FENCED, AND WE'RE LEAVING THINGS AS THEY'VE BEEN STATED. AND WE TAKE FIVE PERCENT (5%) OFF, AND THATFS ROUGHLY--- A. THAT'S THE MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOCATED, ROUGHLY, TOWARDS MY SALARY. Q. WOULD YOU BY THE END OF '92 HAVE RECEIVED THAT, EITHER IN YOUR SUMMER GRANT MONEY, OR AS APPLIED TO YOUR BASE SALARY? A. I WOULD HAVE RECEIVED A PORTION OF IT, BUT I CANNOT TELL YOU THE PROPORTION, IN ALL HONESTY. Q. OKAY. THE OTHER PORTION OF IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 287 SOME OTHER PART OF WHERE YOU SPENT THE GRANT MONEY? A. IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO SOME OTHER -- SOME OTHER NEEDS. WE'VE HAD PRETTY EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH NEEDS FOR OTHER PERSONNEL, FOR PEOPLE. I HIRE A LOT OF STUDENT ASSISTANTS. SO, IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO SOMEONE'S SALARY. Q. OKAY. OKAY. IS IT FENCED AS TO SALARY, YOU CAN'T MOVE SALARIES OUT OF SALARIES TO FIELDWORK OR LABORATORY? A. THIS PARTICULAR GRANT, IN ITS CONCEPTION -- WE HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH VARIOUS ITERATIONS -- HAS BEEN REASONABLY FLEXIBLE. THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF THIS, IN THAT WE COULD--- Q. OKAY. OKAY. A. ---WE COULD MOVE IT FROM SOME CATEGORIES TO OTHERS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- BUT I TRY TO KEEP IT WITHIN A CERTAIN REALM. Q. ALL RIGHT. BUT AM I CORRECT THAT ON TOP OF YOUR BASE SALARY, SOME PORTION OF THIS GRANT SALARY AND WAGE WOULD BE APPLIED TO YOUR SUMMER INCOME--- A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. --- IS THAT ACCURATE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 288 A. THAT IS CORRECT. Q. OKAY. THAT IS CORRECT. OKAY. SO, YOU'RE RECEIVING A BASE SALARY, AND YOU'RE RECEIVING A GRANT FROM THIS ONE, AND/OR OTHER GRANTS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- YOU'RE RECEIVING THAT? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. YOU ARE RECEIVING A CONSULTING FEE THAT YOU CANNOT RECALL--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- WHAT IT IS? A. I'M RECEIVING MANY CONSULTING FEES, 'THOUGH. Q. WELL, I UNDERSTAND, BUT WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE ONE WE'RE INTERESTED IN. A. BUT YOU PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER WHEN YOU DO YOUR TAX RETURNS, PUT THEM IN THE SUM--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND THEN YOU ASK FOR WHAT PARTICULAR PARTS ARE, IT'S NOT EASY, IF I HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT A. THOSE, AND I DON'T DO IT THAT WAY. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T ASK YOU TO SIMPLY LIST THE THING, BUT PUT YOUR TOTAL INCOME DOWN. AND SO IN THE END, YOU END UP WITH A NUMBER. SURE. SURE. WHAT IS THE TOTAL NUMBER FOR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 289 CONSULTING FEES THAT YOU END UP WITH? A. WELL, THAT -- IT'S HARD TO SAY FROM YEAR TO YEAR, I DON'T KNOW. Q. WHAT DID YOU END UP WITH, ROUGHLY, IN '92 FOR CONSULTING FEES? A. I HAVEN'T SUMMARIZED IT FOR 192. Q. YOU HAVE NO IDEA? A. I HAVEN'T -- I DON'T DO THAT UNTIL SOME TIME IN APRIL. Q. DO YOU HANDLE THE FINANCIAL MATTERS IN YOUR FAMILY, DR. RICHARDSON? A. PRETTY MUCH. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECEIVE AN ADDITIONAL INCOME FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK, THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AS AN EXPERT WITNESS FOR, LIKE, SITTING HERE OR TESTIFYING AT TRIAL? A. I WILL BE PAID FOR MY TIME TO TESTIFY AT TRIAL, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. BUT IS THAT AN ADDITIONAL TO THIS CONSULTING FEE THAT YOU CANNOT RECALL HOW MUCH IT IS? A. WELL, IT WOULD BE -- IT WOULD BE -- I'LL BE PAID FOR MY TIME. I DON'T KNOW WHAT AN ADDITIONAL TO IT. I'M NOT PAID A STANDARD FEE. I DON'T HAVE A STANDARD RETAINING FEE, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 290 ASKING. I HAVE NO--- Q. LIKE DR. RADER GETS HUNDRED DOLLARS ($800.00) --- A. I HAVE NO--- Q. --- MONTH, YOU DON'T GET THAT TYPE OF--- A. --- I HAVE NO STANDARD RETAINER FEE. IF THAT -- MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- I HAVE NO RETAINING FEE. Q. OKAY. A. OKAY. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE ASKING THAT. MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD. Q. WELL, THAT WAS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN--- A. NO, NO. Q. --- HE HAS THREE SEPARATE SOURCES--- A. NO, I DON'T HAVE A--- Q. --- OF INCOME --- A. --- I HAVE NO --- Q. --- REGARDING THIS SAME ISSUE. A. --- I DO IT ON PER JOB BASIS--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- PER TASK, OR PER HOUR. Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND THAT HAS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE '88, '89? A. I HAVE NEVER HAD A RETAINING FEE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 291 Q. OKAY. OKAY. A. I'M SORRY IF I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU. Q. THAT'S FINE. ARE YOU ALSO PAID A SEPARATE EXPERT WITNESS FEE BY THE COOPERATIVE? A. I WILL BE PAID FOR MY SERVICES RELATED TO INFORMATION I PROVIDED TO THE CO-OP, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. ON A CONSULTING BASIS? A. ON A CONSULTING BASIS. Q. CONSULTING EXPERT WITNESS BASIS. NOW, AND WHAT IS YOUR SALARY RANGE FOR THAT? A. MY SCIENTIFIC SALARY RANGE IS A HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS ($100.00 TO $150.00) AN HOUR. I THINK IT CURRENTLY IS A HUNDRED AND FIFTY. Q. OKAY. AND THE DAILY RATE? A. IT WOULD BE THE SAME AS I MENTIONED BEFORE. Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, ON A DAY SUCH AS TODAY, DR. RICHARDSON, WHERE YOU ARE APPEARING ON BEHALF OF BOTH OF THEM, DO THEY, LIKE, SPLIT THE COST FOR THE DAY, OR DO YOU GET DOUBLE? A. I BELIEVE -- I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT. Q. AFTER TODAY--- A. GOOD SUGGESTION. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 292 Q. --- THEY SHOULD PAY YOU DOUBLE, DR. RICHARDSON. MR. GREEN: WELL, I'D JUST LIKE TO INSERT FOR THE RECORD, IF IT'S RELEVANT, THAT I THINK COUNSEL FOR ALL--- WITNESS: HE ONLY WANTS HALF. MR. GREEN: --- COUNSEL FOR ALL PARTIES AGREED TO PROVIDE THEIR WITNESSES AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE FOR DEPOSITIONS. JUST FOR THE RECORD, I'D LIKE TO STATE THAT. MS. PONZOLI: WAS THAT PERSONAL EXPENSE OR AT CLIENT'S EXPENSE? MR. GREEN: WAS WHAT PERSONAL OR CLIENT? MS. PONZOLI: I'M JUST TEASING. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE BEING PAID DOUBLE WHEN YOU--- A. OH, I -- I WOULD NOT BE BILLING DOUBLE FOR THIS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I WOULD BE IT WOULD BE PRORATED. WE HAVE NOT DISCUSSED HOW THAT WOULD BE DONE. OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU TESTIFY AT TRIAL,, YOU'LL RECEIVE PROBABLY THE SAME FEE, BUT JUST SPLIT BETWEEN TWO CLIENTS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 293 A. THEY WILL HAVE TO--- Q. AND WHEN YOU--- A. ---AGREE OR DISAGREE HOW THEY DO THAT. Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU PERFORM A TASK THAT GOES TO BOTH OF THEM, THEN YOU DO THE SAME THING, OR DO YOU DOUBLE BILL? A. OH, NO, I WOULD DO -- I'VE DONE VERY LITTLE THE SAME FOR BOTH OF THEM IN TERMS OF THAT. NORMALLY, AS I SAID BEFORE, WHAT WILL HAPPEN -- SINCE THE CO-OP IS NO LONGER PART OF THE LEAGUE -- THE LEAGUE WILL SAY, PLEASE COME AND TELL ME WHAT THE PROJECT SUMMARY IS TO DATE, AND THEN THE CO-OP, SINCE THEY ARE LEFT OUT, THEY WILL CALL ME AND SAY, PLEASE COME AND TELL ME THE SUMMARY OF WHAT IT IS TO DATE. SO, I HAVE TO DO IT TWICE. Q. SO YOU GET PAID TWICE? A. IF I HAVE TO DO THAT TWICE. Q. SURE. A. IF THEY WERE AT THE SAME MEETING, THEN YOU WOULDN'T DO IT THAT WAY. BUT THEY MAKE ME COME TWO DIFFERENT TIMES, SO, IN TERMS OF -- IF THEY WANT THAT INFORMATION. ALL RIGHT. WHEN WERE YOU FIRST HIRED BY THE CO-OP AS AN EXPERT WITNESS CONSULTANT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 294 A. OH, THAT WAS VERY -- I -- THAT WAS VERY RECENT -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE. MAYBE IT' WAS -- IT COULD HAVE BEEN '92. Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR SALARY TO DATE FROM THEM OR CONSULTING EXPERT WITNESS FEE HAS BEEN FOR 192? A. NO. AS I SAID, IT'S ALL LUMPED IN THAT GROUP. Q. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU GET IN CONSULTANT FEES PER YEAR? DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU GET ON AN AVERAGE YEAR FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS? A. I'D HAVE TO MAKE A ROUGH GUESS, BUT I COULD -- YOU KNOW--- Q. WHAT'S THE ROUGH GUESS? A. WELL, IT'S PROBABLY CLOSE TO THAT HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLAR ($100,000.00) FIGURE, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. OKAY. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR CONSULTANT WORK IS DONE IN RELATION TO EVERGLADES ISSUES, LET'S JUST SAY THE COOPERATIVE, THE LEAGUE, WHATEVER? A. WHAT PERCENTAGE IS WHAT, NOW, OF MY CONSULTANCY IS DONE? Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, IT AGAIN VARIES BY YEAR. ONE 'YEAR, I WAS YOU KNOW, I'D HAVE TO GO BACK. ONE YEAR, I HAD VERY HEAVY CONSULTANCIES WITH THE GOVERNMENT. I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 295 WAS A CONSULTANT FOR EPA. I RAN THE USDA GRANTS PROGRAM FOR A YEAR. I WAS PAID A FAIRLY HEFTY PREMIUM TO RUN THAT PARTICULAR PROGRAM FOR A YEAR, SO. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT AMOUNT, BUT IT WAS IN -- YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, SO I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THAT -- YOU KNOW. SOME YEARS, IT MAY HAVE BEEN HALF FROM OTHER SOURCES; SOME YEARS IT MAY HAVE BEEN ONLY TWENTY PERCENT. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK, AND, AGAIN, I DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE SOME OF THE YEARS OVERLAP; THEY DON'T RUN CONCURRENT. IN OTHER WORDS, SOME RUN IN, YOU KNOW, HALF THE YEARS; AND, SOMETIMES, DEPENDING ON WHEN YOU GET THE PARTICULAR CHECK, IT RUNS IN ONE YEAR OR THE OTHER. Q. UNCLE SAM HAS A WAY OF LUMPING IT INTO YEARS, THOUGH. A. YES. BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, IN MY OWN MIND, WHICH YEAR IT FELL INTO. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO, YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT EIGHTY PERCENT -- FIFTY TO EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE ESTIMATED HUNDRED THOUSAND ($100,000.00) WOULD BE ATTRIBUTABLE TO THESE CONSULTANCIES, BUT YOU'RE NOT--- A. DEPENDING UPON THE YEAR, I MEAN, AS I SAID. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 296 Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE THERE ANY OTHER SOURCES OF INCOME THAT YOU HAVE FROM THIS, DR. RICHARDSON, FROM THESE EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES? ARE YOU PAID FOR ANY OF THE SPEECHES THAT YOU GIVE AS YOU GO AROUND THE COUNTRY, THE WORLD? A. USUALLY EXPENSES. OCCASIONALLY, I GET AN HONORARIA. Q. OKAY. BUT THOSE ARE NOT OF ANY REAL SIGNIFICANCE, ARE THEY? A. A FEW THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON HOW MANY YOU GIVE, I GUESS. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DERIVED ANY PARTICULAR INCOME REGARDING THE EVERGLADES FROM THESE HONORARIA THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED IN SPEAKING ON EVERGLADES ISSUES? A. NO, NOT REALLY. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THEN WE'LL WAIT FOR MR. McCAUGHAN, TO FINISH THAT LINE OF QUESTIONING. A. OKAY. Q. YOU HAD INDICATED -- WE HAD NOT FINISHED GOING THROUGH THE LIST, BUT YOU HAD INDICATED TO ME--- A. ARE YOU FINISHED OFF THIS, NOW? Q. NO, I'M NOT. THE LIST, I'M NOT FINISHED WITH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 297 A. NO, NO. I MEAN, DO YOU WANT ME TO CLOSE THIS UP, NOW? Q. YES, SIR. I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT WITH SOME OTHER QUESTIONS. A. WELL, LET ME SET THAT OVER HERE FOR NOW. Q. YES, SIR. LET ME ASK YOU JUST ONE QUESTION. WHAT FRACTION OF YOUR DUKE SALARY IS RECHARGED BACK TO THAT GRANT? CAN YOU ANSWER THAT? A. I DON'T KNOW. AS I SAID, IT VARIES FROM SEMESTER TO SEMESTER. Q. OKAY. A. ON A YEARLY BASIS, I DON'T KNOW. ON A SEMESTER BASIS, ACADEMIC SEMESTER BASIS, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE A SMALL PERCENTAGE, IF ANYTHING. I'M NOT SURE BECAUSE IT VARIES. Q. ALL RIGHT. I THINK WE WERE GOING THROUGH THE EXPERT WITNESSES, WHY DON'T WE RETURN TO THAT. WE WERE AT DR. RADER. DR. RECKHOW IS ON YOUR DUKE WETLAND CENTER. WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP OF DR. RECKHOW TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? A. HE'S A PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT, AND HE IS A PARTICIPANT IN THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. RECKHOW? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 298 A. YES, I DID. Q. OKAY. AND YOU RECOMMENDED HIM FOR WHAT? A. I RECOMMENDED HIM AS A STATISTICAL CONSULTANT, A PERSON WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH PHOSPHORUS ISSUES, WATER QUALITY ISSUES, BAYESIAN STATISTICS, PROBABILITY ANALYSIS, AND UNCERTAINTY. Q. WHAT TYPE OF WORK DOES DR. RECKHOW DO WITH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? A. HE TEACHES COURSES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO STUDENTS IN THE WETLAND CENTER AND IN THE SCHOOL. HE ACTS ON COMMITTEES; HE CO-ADVISES STUDENTS IN THE CENTER; HE WORKS ON GRANTS THROUGH THE CENTER; HE HELPS WRITE PROPOSALS FOR THE CENTER; AND WE WORK ON JOINT PROJECTS TOGETHER. Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. RECKHOW TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. IT PROBABLY WAS IN '89, MAYBE. Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE BECAME RETAINED AT THAT TIME BY A. THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, OR SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME, '89, '90? A. I BELIEVE HE WAS. Q. OKAY. AND HAS REMAINED RETAINED BY THEM SINCE THEN, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 299 A. I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE ONCE HE BECAME,' RETAINED AS A CONSULTANT, THEN WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS THAT IN TERMS OF THAT. HE SIMPLY REFUSED TO DISCUSS THAT COMPONENT OF IT. Q. WAS THAT BY INSTRUCTIONS FROM YOUR ATTORNEYS? A. I DON'T KNOW. HE SIMPLY SAID THAT HE WAS -- HE WAS WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, I BELIEVE--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND SO HE BASICALLY -- I MEAN, WE HAVE MANY CONVERSATIONS ON MANY THINGS. OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE LUNCH TOGETHER QUITE OFTEN, BUT WHEN IT--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- ANY OF THAT PART OF IT, IT WAS SORT OF A PROFESSIONAL AGREEMENT THAT WE SIMPLY WOULDN'T DISCUSS THAT. Q. BUT WHY? I MEAN, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT SCIENTIFIC ISSUES WITHIN A MASSIVE ECOSYSTEM UNDER STRESS, IT WOULD BE A NATURAL TOPIC OF DISCUSSION. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MS. PONZOLI: YOU MAY ANSWER, DR. RICHARDSON. A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOUR QUESTION IS. DID WE DISCUSS--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 300 Q. YEAH, WHY AREN'T YOU DISCUSSING A VERY NATURAL TOPIC OF DISCUSSION AT LUNCH? A. WELL, ONE, I'M NOT WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, AND THAT'S WHAT HE WAS WORKING PRIMARILY ON, SO I -- I MEAN--- Q. BUT NOW HE'S WORKING ON THE EVERGLADES, ISN'T HE, SINCE 189, 190? A. NOT -- AS FAR AS I KNOW, HE'S NOT WORKING ON THE EVERGLADES SINCE 189 OR 190. THAT IS NOT MY UNDER--- Q. HE'S ONLY WORKING WITH NUMBERS, CRUNCHING NUMBERS? A. WELL, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING HE HAS NOT BEEN WORKING THE EVERGLADES NUMBERS SINCE '89 OR '90. Q. OH, WHAT DID HE DO IN THE BEGINNING, 189, 190? A. HE WAS WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE. Q. OH, WHEN THEY RETAINED HIM, IT WAS--- A. YES, HE--- Q. --- FOR LAKE OKEECHOBEE AND NOT--- A. --- HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EVERGLADES, RIGHT. HE WORKING ON -- I RECOMMENDED HIM FOR LAKE OKEECHOBEE PROBLEMS--- Q. I SEE. A. --- CAUSE HE'S A LAKE PERSON; HE WORKS A LOT WITH LAKE AND, YOU KNOW--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 301 Q. IS HE A LIMNOLOGIST? A. HE'S A WATER -- HE'S AN ENGINEER BY TRAINING, A STATISTICIAN, AND HE DEALS A LOT WITH WATER QUALITY. HE'S WRITTEN SOME OF THE BOOKS -- THE TEXTBOOKS THAT THEY USE ON THAT. Q. WHEN DID HE BEGIN WORKING ON EVERGLADES RELATED PROBLEMS, AS YOU YOU ARE DISASSOCIATING THE LAKE FROM IT, BUT I'M USING YOUR---- A. RIGHT. Q. --- DISTINCTION, NOT MINE. A. RIGHT. WELL, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. WHEN DID HE--- Q. WHEN DID HE BEGIN TO WORK ON WHAT YOU CONSIDER EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES? A. THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY IN 192. Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND HIM ALSO TO THE COOPERATIVE? A. YES. Q. AND HE WOULD HAVE BEEN RETAINED BY THEM IN '92, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE? A. THAT WOULD BE CORRECT. Q. OKAY. FOR SIMILAR PURPOSES? A. I'M NOT SURE. WELL, IN GENERAL TERMS, YES. I'm NOT SURE WHAT ARRANGEMENTS THEY HAVE MADE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 302 Q. IN 192, FROM THE TIME HE'S BEEN WORKING ON MORE EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES, YOU STILL DO NOT HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS, IS THAT RIGHT? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION? I THINK--- A. DO WE HAVE WHAT CONVERSATIONS? Q. THE CONVERSATIONS AT LUNCH REGARDING WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES? A. OH, WE HAVE SOME GENERAL -- WE HAVE -DOME GENERAL CONVERSATIONS, BUT NOTHING OF SPECIFICS. Q. DOES HE EVER DO STATISTICS ON YOUR DATA? A. ON MY DATA -- HE HAS SEEN SOME OF MY DATA. AS FAR AS I KNOW -- I'M NOT SURE IF HE IS DOING THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ON MY DATA OR NOT AT THE MOMENT. Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF HE'S DOING THE STATISTICAL--- A. NO. Q. --- ANALYSIS ON YOUR DATA? A. NO. Q. IS THIS PART OF THIS ONGOING JUST DICHOTOMY BETWEEN--- A. NO, I'M NOT -- I JUST DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAS BEEN ASKED TO DO -- WHAT TO DO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 303 RELATED TO THAT. HE'S BEEN ASKED SOME ASPECTS OF IT, BUT -- AND, ALSO, HE'S EXTREMELY BUSY, SO I KNOW HE'S BEEN WORKING ON A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS, SO HE HASN'T--- Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DOCTOR -- NOT DOCTOR, MR. WALLER--- A. NO. Q. --- HE'S ON PAGE 11? A. NO. Q. OR DR. HACKNEY? A. I MAY HAVE RECOMMENDED -- AND I'M VAGUE ON THIS AS -- DR. HACKNEY A LONG TIME AGO. BUT, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID BEFORE, I SOMETIMES PRODUCED LISTS OF PEOPLE IN CERTAIN AREAS, YOU KNOW, WETLANDS ECOLOGY. I DON'T KNOW. Q. HE WAS AT THAT ONE PARTICULAR MEETING, WASN'T HE, WHERE YOU NAMED THE PEOPLE PRE-SAGE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. DID HE ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS -- OH, HE HAD LEFT BY THE TIME YOU GAVE YOUR PRESENTATION? A. HE HAD LEFT. Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. COLLINS? A. NO. Q. DO YOU WORK WITH DR. HACKNEY ON ANY OF HIS ISSUES? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 304 A. WHAT ISSUES ARE YOU REFERRING TO? Q. WELL, THE ONES THAT ARE LISTED, OR ANY OTHER ISSUES REGARDED TO EVERGLADES. A. NO. I HAVE WORKED ON COMMITTEES WITH DR. HACKNEY IN ACADEMIC MATTERS, BUT I HAVE NOT WORKED WITH HIM ON THE EVERGLADES ISSUES. Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. COLLINS'? A. NO. Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND MR. STRICKER? A. NO. Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. HILL? A. NO. Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. JONES, LIMNOLO(;IST? A. NO. Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. MANGARELLA? A. NO. Q. DR. SMART? A. NO. Q. DR. PRATT? MR. GREEN: I'M SORRY, WHICH NAME DID YOU READ? MR. BURGESS: PRATT. MR. GREEN: PRATT. MS. PONZOLI: PRATT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 305 MR. GREEN: THANK YOU. A. NO. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU RECOMMEND MR. ARMSTRONG? A. NO. Q. DR. HORNE? A. NO. Q. DR. LETTENMAIER? A. NO. Q. DR. MILLARD? A. NO. Q. DR. LOFTUS? A. NO. Q. DR. EXUM -- WORKS WITH DR. HACKNEY? A. NO. Q. DR. DZURIK? A. NO. Q. MR. BRAUER? A. ARE YOU SAYING DONALD BRAUER? Q. YES, SIR. A. NO. Q. DR. LEFOHN? A. NO. Q. MR. KRUPA? A. NO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 306 Q. DR. MEDINA? A. I MAY HAVE MENTIONED HIS NAME TO THEM. Q. OKAY. FOR WHAT PURPOSES DID YOU POTENTIALLY OR POSSIBLY RECOMMEND DR. MEDINA? A. IF -- AS I -- WE MAY HAVE HAD SOME CONVERSATIONS, I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY. HIS NAME HAD BEEN MENTIONED A NUMBER OF TIMES. IT WOULD BE RELATED TO HYDROLOGY; HYDROLOGY MODELING--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). WHEN? A. --- PRIMARILY. Q. WHEN DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED? A. HIS NAME HAS BEEN BATTED AROUND FOR SEVERAL YEARS, SO I CAN'T GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC DATE, BUT IT MAY HAVE BEEN DONE, YOU KNOW, 191 SOMEWHERE--- Q. 1190, AS EARLY AS 190 POSSIBLY? A. POSSIBLY--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- BUT I AM NOT SURE OF THAT. Q. RIGHT. MR. STEWART? A. NO. Q. DR. DUNCKELMAN? A. NO. Q. YOU HAVE WORKED WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN, THOUGH, BACK AND FORTH ON CERTAIN ISSUES REGARDED TO THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 307 EVERGLADES, HAVE YOU NOT? A. NO. Q. HAVE YOU HAD CORRESPONDENCE WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN? A. HE HAS OCCASIONALLY SENT ME A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING OR AN ARTICLE. I'VE HAD NO SCIENTIFIC INTERACTIONS WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN, OTHER THAN HIM OCCASIONALLY ATTENDING A MEETING. HE MAY HAVE BEEN IN AN EQC MEETING ONE TIME OR TWO. I CANFT REMEMBER. I'VE HAD VIRTUALLY NO CONTACT WITH HIM. Q. WOULD YOU BE IN THE ROOM AT THE SAME TIME AS DR. DUNCKELMAN, OR WOULD YOU BE WAITING IN THE HALL? A. IT'S HARD TO SAY. I THINK SOMETIMES OBVIOUSLY HE WAS IN THE ROOM, AND HE MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE HALLWAY. I DON'T REMEMBER WHO WAS PUT INTO PURGATORY. Q. WHERE ARE THESE MEETINGS HELD GENERAIJLY? THEY'RE AT VARIOUS PLACES. THEY COULD BE AT A HOTEL, OR THEY COULD BE AT FLO SUN, OR THEY COULD BE A CLEWISTON, IT JUST DEPENDS. Q. WHEN YOU MEET IN CLEWISTON, WHERE DO YOU MEET? A. THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. OH, IN THEIR OFFICES? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 308 A. THEIR OFFICES. WE STAND IN THEIR HALLWAYS. Q. DOES FLO SUN HAVE NICE HALLWAYS? A. THEYFRE DARK. Q. MR. JENNINGS? A. NO. Q. MR. OWENS? A. NO. Q. MR. MYHRE? A. NO. Q. DR. ANDERSON? A. NO. Q. DR. STURM? A. NO. Q. I'D LIKE TO MOVE TO THE COOPERATIVE'S LIST. SOME OF IT OVERLAPS, BUT--- A. WHERE ARE WE ON THE -- GOING TO BE AT? Q. PETITIONERS' WITNESS LIST. THIS IS -- I DONFT KNOW MR. GREEN'S BOOK. MR. BURGESS: I THINK IT'S NUMBER ONE. MR. GREEN: THE PRECEDING TAB. MS. PONZOLI: MAYBE I SHOULD LOOK AT IT. MR. GREEN: YOU'RE WELCOME TO. A. OKAY. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 309 A. IT SAYS "FACT WITNESS" AT THE TOP? Q. I ASSUME YOU--- A. NO, NO. Q. --- DID NOT RECOMMEND MYSELF OR OTHERS. DID YOU RECOMMEND MR. COLE? A. NO. Q. MR. HORVATH? A. NO. Q. MR. MESSIMER? A. NO. Q. HOW ABOUT MR. GHERINI -- IS IT DR. GHERINI? I DON'T KNOW. THESE DON'T SEEM TO HAVE -- NO, IT DOESN'T HAVE Ph.D. BEHIND IT. MR. GHERINI? A. NO. Q. DR. HAITH? A. NO. Q. DID YOU MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE COOPERATIVE? I THINK YOU SAID YOU DID, DIDN'T YOU? A. YES. Q. OKAY. SO, I HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE LIST. DR. HERBERT? A. NO. Q. DR. LUKE? A. NO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 310 Q. DR. LEISTRITZ? A. NO. Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEEM TO BE ON THIS LIST, DR. RICHARDSON? A. THERE MAY BE SOME. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, OFFHAND, TILL WE GO THROUGH THE LIST, I WON'T--- Q. OKAY. DR. McCLAVE? A. NO. Q. DR. POLLMAN? A. NO. Q. DO YOU WORK WITH DR. POLLMAN? A. OCCASIONALLY. Q. HAVE YOU WORKED ON ANY MERCURY ISSUES WITH DR. POLLMAN? A. NO. Q. OKAY. DR. RECKHOW, WE KNOW YOU'VE WORKED WITH. THERE'S A SUPPLEMENTAL LIST--- A. I DIDN'T RECOMMEND MYSELF EITHER. Q. I THINK WE'VE COVERED THAT ONE. I THINK THAT'S WELL, WAIT A SECOND. SINCE THIS CASE GOES ON FOREVER, I THINK THAT'S ALL. WERE THERE OTHER PEOPLE YOU RECOMMENDED, DR. RICHARDSON, TO THE COOPERATIVE? A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I'M TRYING TO THINK. THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 311 DIFFICULTY THERE IS THE FACT THAT ORIGINALLY GEORGE WEDGWORTH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE HEAD OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND SO I WOULD HAVE RECOMMENDED SOME PEOPLE WHEN -- IN HIS CAPACITY WITH THE LEAGUE--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE. AND ALSO ED BARBER WAS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND AS YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOW PART OF THE COOPERATIVE. AT LEAST GEORGE IS, AND ED WORKS -- OR HAD WORKED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME -- HE MAY STILL BE, I DON'T KNOW -- AS A CONSULTANT TO THE CO-OP. AND SO IT'S HARD TO SAY, YOU KNOW, IF THEY DID OR DIDN'T CONSIDER SOMEBODY UNDER ONE OF THOSE. Q. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS ENDED UP? A. NO. I RECOMMENDED SOME PEOPLE, AS I SAID BEFORE, AND WHETHER THEY TOOK THEM OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW. Q. SURE. HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED, AS PART OF YOUR CONSULTANT WORK ON BEHALF OF THE COOPERATIVE AND/OR THE LEAGUE TO REVIEW THE WORK OF FEDERAL EXPERTS? A. I THINK I'VE HAD SOME REQUESTS TO DO SOME OF THAT, YES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 312 Q. OKAY. WHICH FEDERAL EXPERTS HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED TO REVIEW WORK? A. I RECEIVED SO MANY DOCUMENTS I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHICH ONES. YOU KNOW, JUST GIVE ME A MOMENT HERE. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE THAT I'VE BEEN ASKED TO DO, I THINK, AND I CAN'T SAY THE MAJORITY, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE LISTED AS FEDERAL EXPERTS OR WITNESSES, OR WHATEVER, BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME, WITH THE EXCEPTIONS OF ONE OR TWO, WHO THEY WERE. THEY WERE JUST DOCUMENTS. I HAVE NOT HAD THE TIME TO REVIEW VERY MANY DOCUMENTS. THE MAIN ONE THAT I THINK I HAVE REVIEWED, IN TERMS OF EXPERT -- THAT I UNDERSTAND NOW IS AN EXPERT WITNESS -- IS ONE COMPONENT OF DR. WALKERIS. Q. WHAT COMPONENT WAS THAT? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS AN EARLY COMPONENT WHERE HE WAS LOOKING AT WATER QUALITY INPUTS TO THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE CRITICISM OF THAT WORK? A. IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I LOOKED AT THAT. YES, I DID GO THROUGH THAT AND LOOK AT THAT PARTICULAR DOCUMENT. Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAD CRITICISMS OF IT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 313 A. YES, I HAD SOME, FROM AN ECOLOGIST'S POINT OF VIEW, YES. Q. OKAY. DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT AT TRIAL YOU MIGHT BE CALLED TO REBUT OR CRITIQUE THOSE -- THAT WORK OF WALKER AND/OR OTHER FEDERAL EXPERTS OR STATE EXPERTS, FOR THAT MATTER? A. WELL--- MR. BURGESS: LET ME OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, DR. RICHARDSON? A. YOU'LL HAVE TO BREAK IT DOWN, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT--- Q. FEDERAL AND STATE, IS THAT THE PART THAT CONFUSED YOU? A. WELL, FEDERAL AND STATE AND OTHER, AND I MEAN WHICH -- I'M NOT SURE--- Q. WELL, I WANT TO KNOW--- A. --- JUST START OUT ONE AT A TIME OR PIECE--- Q. --- IS PART OF YOUR CONSULTING EFFORT TO REVIEW, CRITIQUE, AND POTENTIALLY TESTIFY ABOUT THE WORK OF FEDERAL EXPERTS, LET'S SAY, FIRST? A. THE MAJORITY OF IT IN THE BEGINNING HAS NOT BEEN TO DO THAT. I HAVE BEEN DOING OTHER THINGS. IN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 314 MORE RECENT TIMES, I MAY BE ASKED TO DO SOME OF THAT. AS I SAID, I HAVE ONLY REVIEWED SEVERAL DOCUMENTS IN THAT LIGHT. AND I THINK WALKERFS MAY BE THE ONLY ONE -- THAT DOCUMENT MAY BE THE ONLY ONE, TO MY RECOLLECTION, THAT I HAVE REVIEWED IN THAT LIGHT. I HAVE NOT BEEN ASKED TO REVIEW OTHER DOCUMENTS FOR THAT, THAT I KNOW, FOR THE FEDERAL. OKAY. Q. BUT THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS, YES, AS TO DR. WALKERIS, YOU MIGHT BE CALLED IN THAT CAPACITY? A. I'M NOT SURE I -- I'M NOT SURE I'M GOING TO BE CALLED IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE. IT'S NOT--- Q. HOW ABOUT--- A. --- I THINK THEY MAY HAVE OTHER PEOPLE DOING THAT; I THINK THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING NOW, THAT I MAY NOT BE CALLED TO DO THAT. Q. WOULD DR. DAVIS BE DOING THAT? A. I HAVE NO IDEA. Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IT WOULD BE? A. I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WOULD BE. Q. OKAY. IT WOULDN'T BE DR. RECKHOW? A. I HAVE NO IDEA. I REALLY DON'T. Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT DR. JONES, DR. KADLEC, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 31S MR. DOREN, HAVE YOU REVIEWED THEIR WORK? A. DR. KADLEC; DOCTOR, WHO? Q. JONES. A. JONES. Q. MR. DOREN. A. MR. DOREN. MR. DOREN, NO; I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHO MR. DOREN IS, BUT. Q. AT THE PARK, AT THE RESEARCH CENTER. A. BUT I'M NOT SURE WHICH DOCUMENT. I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE REVIEWED ANY OF HIS DOCUMENTS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I MEAN, I CAN'T SAY I HAVEN'T PICKED IT UP AND LOOKED AT THE COVER, BUT I HAVE NOT--- Q. YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT IT WASN'T SENT TO YOU AND THAT IT WASN'T PRODUCED BACK TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT; YOU'RE JUST SAYING YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION, AS YOU SIT HERE, HAVING REVIEWED IT? A. BACK TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. YOU MEAN BACK TO--- Q. I WAS PRODUCED A NUMBER OF MY OWN DOCUMENTS--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- BACK, DR. RICHARDSON. A. YES, I WAS SENT A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF THOSE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 316 DOCUMENTS, I REALIZE THAT. Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. A. AND THEY WERE IN MY FILES, AND I--- Q. AND I GOT THEM BACK. A. YES, I REALIZE THAT. MR. BURGESS: BECAUSE YOU ASKED FOR THEM. A. YOU WANTED--- MS. PONZOLI: I ONLY GET WHAT I ASK FOR. I UNDERSTAND, MR. BURGESS. A. --- AND I'M TELLING YOU THAT FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THAT INFORMATION, I DIDN'T REVIEW THOSE DOCUMENTS FOR EXPERT TESTIMONY. I HAVE NOT -- MOST OF THAT WAS FOR MY INFORMATION. THAT'S WHAT I WAS SENT SO THAT I COULD KEEP UP WITH WHAT WAS GOING ON. ALSO, THOSE DOCUMENTS CONTAIN IMPORTANT INFORMATION THAT GIVE ME INSIGHTS AS TO HOW THE EVERGLADES WORKS; SOME DO, SOME DON'T. SOME ARE TRASH, AND SOME ARE QUITE GOOD. Q. SURE. SURE. BUT YOU--- MR. BURGESS: BUT--- MS. PONZOLI: YES. MR. BURGESS: --- LET ME JUST STATE FOR THE RECORD THAT ON BEHALF OF THE LEAGUE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 317 WE HAVE NO INTENTION, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, IN REQUESTING DR. RICHARDSON TO TESTIFY CONCERNING THE EARLY COMPONENT OF DR. WALKER'S WORK THAT HE REVIEWED WITH RESPECT TO EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. AND THAT'S THE REASON THAT THE DOCUMENT IS ON OUR PRIVILEGED LIST. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, WITH THE "AT THIS TIME" AND THE "EARLY COMPONENT" LIMITATIONS, I'M NOT SURE I GOT MUCH OUT OF THAT ONE, BUT I APPRECIATE YOUR INFORMING ME. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL REVIEWING ANY OTHER FEDERAL EXPERTS' WORK, EITHER FOR PURPOSES OF YOUR OWN INFORMATION ABOUT THE EVERGLADES, OR ON A CONSULTANT BASIS? MR. BURGESS: I'M JUST GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, I'M SORRY, FROM THE STANDPOINT OF OTHER CONSULTANTS' WORK. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHETHER YOU ARE REFERRING TO SOMETHING THAT I GAVE THEM, SOMETHING THAT YOU GAVE THEM, SOMETHING THAT'S AVAILABLE PUBLICLY. THEIR PUBLICATIONS IN THEIR RESUME, OR SPECIFIC ITEMS. AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE MIGHT BE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 318 CONFUSED BY THAT. I CERTAINLY KNOW WITH RESPECT TO THE NAMES THAT YOU AIJREADY GAVE, THAT HE'S READ THINGS THAT -- THAT THEY MAY HAVE PUBLISHED. BUT WHEN YOU REFER TO OTHER ASPECTS OF THEIR WORK, I'M NOT CLEAR ON WHAT YOU MEAN. THANK YOU. WITNESS: SO, WHERE ARE WE, I'M SORRY? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I ASSUME YOU'RE NOT CLEAR, EITHER? A. WELL, IF YOU ASK ME SPECIFICALLY REALLY TO WHO, I MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO BETTER ON THAT, BUT GO AHEAD, GIVE ME--- Q. DO YOU WANT ME TO GO THROUGH THE LIST OF FEDERAL EXPERTS? I WAS TRYING TO AVOID THAT, DR. RICHARDSON. A. WELL, I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT EITHER, BUT YOU MUST HAVE ONE, OR TWO, OR SOME PEOPLE IN MIND. I MEAN, I'VE TOLD YOU, BY AND LARGE, I HAVE NOT REVIEWED FORMALLY -- I BELIEVE I SAID THE ONLY FEDERAL EXPERT THAT I REVIEWED A DOCUMENT, WHICH I, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, AM NOT GOING TO BE TESTIFYING TO, WAS DR. WALKER. Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT WERE YOUR COMMENTS CONCERNING HIS WORK ON THE S-12'S? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 319 MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER AT THAT POINT. AT THIS POINT, THE DOCUMENTS ARE ON OUR PRIVILEGE LIST. WE HAVE NO INTENTION OF ASKING DR. RICHARDSON ANY QUESTIONS AS AN EXPERT AT THE TIME OF TRIAL, AND -- ON THAT AREA OF WORK, AND THUS THE DOCUMENT DOESNFT CONSTITUTE A DOCUMENT THAT HE HAS REVIEWED OR RELIED UPON IN EXPRESSING OPINIONS. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DR. RICHARDSON, WILL YOUR TESTIMONY AT TRIAL BE THE SAME AS YOU HAVE WRITTEN ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS THAT EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK HAS AND IS RECEIVING HIGH QUALITY WATER? A. UNLESS I RECEIVE NEW INFORMATION TO THE CONTRARY. SINCE I HAVEN'T HAD ACCESS TO THE PARK, I CAN'T SAY WHAT'S INSIDE THE PARK, I CAN ONLY SAY WHAT I'VE ANALYZED AND WHAT I'VE LOOKED AT. SO, I DON'T SEE ANY MAJOR CHANGES. Q. SO, YES, YOU WOULD -- THE ANSWER IS, YES, YOU ANTICIPATE THAT YOU WOULD GIVE THAT TESTIMONY? A. I ANTICIPATE THAT I WOULD GIVE THAT TESTIMONY ON THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I THINK, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 320 MR. BURGESS, GIVEN THAT THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL PIECE OF HIS TESTIMONY, AND CERTAINLY A CRITICAL ELEMENT, I THINK HIS OPINION OF DR. WALKER'S S-12 WATER QUALITY WORK WOULD BE VERY RELEVANT. MR. BURGESS: WELL, I DISAGREE. MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER? MR. BURGESS: WITH RESPECT TO WHAT HIS CRITICISMS WERE THAT WERE -- MAY HAVE BEEN CONCERNING THAT DOCUMENT, WHICH WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY COUNSEL AND REQUESTED FOR REVIEW, YES, THAT'S MY WORK PRODUCT. AND UNTIL -- REALLY NOT UNTIL, BUT UNLESS I WERE TO TELL YOU THAT HE WERE TO TESTIFY CONCERNING HIS REVIEW OF DR. WALKER'S PAPER, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE ENTITLED TO DISCOVER IT. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I WOULD ASK YOU TO THINK THAT ONE OVER LIKE YOU DID THE OTHER ONE, CAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE. MR. BURGESS: I'LL DO THAT. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) RETURNING TO THE FUNCTIONS THAT YOU HAVE PROVIDED AS A CONSULTANT, YOU SAID YOU'VE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 321 REVIEWED DOCUMENTS; YOU'VE MADE EXPERT RECOMMENDATIONS; WEFVE REALLY GONE THROUGH THAT AT LENGTH. YOU'VE REPORTED ON YOUR WORK IN THE FIELD, AND YOU HAVE REVIEWED OTHER WORK IN THE FIELD, INCLUDING THE ENTRY TO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. WHAT OTHER WORK IN THE FIELD, OTHER THAN THAT ENTRY INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE, HAVE YOU REVIEWED, DR. RICHARDSON? A. WHAT WORK IN THE FIELD? Q. WHAT OTHER FIELDWORK FOR OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE LEAGUE AND/OR THE COOPERATIVE HAVE YOU REVIEWED? A. WHAT OTHER FIELDWORK, OKAY. Q. OTHER THAN THE ENTRY TO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE, WHICH YOU'VE CONCEDED THAT YOU HAVE--- A. RIGHT. YOU'RE NOT ASKING IF I'VE DONE FIELD RESEARCH, YOU'RE ASKING ME WHAT FIELDWORK--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- THAT I HAVE REVIEWED? Q. RIGHT. HAVE YOU DONE ADDITIONAL FIELDWORK FOR THE LEAGUE? A. NO, I HAVE NOT. Q. OKAY. A. NO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 322 Q. OKAY. A. THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CLARIFY. Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. RIGHT. A. I HAVE REVIEWED AND LOOKED AT, IN A CURSORY WAY -- IN OTHER WORDS, I HAVE NOT WRITTEN A FORMAL REPORT, BUT I HAVE DISCUSSED THIS IN SEVERAL MEETINGS -- THE INFORMATION IN THE ENR WORKSHOP. SOME DOCUMENTS RELATED TO, I THINK, CLARIFICATION OF LOTS. IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO NAME THE NUMBER OF QUESTIONS THAT -- THROUGH TWO OR THREE YEARS WOULD COME UP RELATED TO A NUMBER OF ISSUES. I HAVE REVIEWED DR. KADLECIS AND NEWMAN'S REPORT -- AT LEAST REVIEWED IT IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT IT -- AND MADE SOME VERBAL COMMENTS; HAD DISCUSSIONS ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS RELATED TO THAT WORK. THE NOLTE REPORT, I HAVE LOOKED AT THAT REPORT, AND DISCUSSED THAT REPORT. NUMEROUS PAPERS, PUBLISHED PAPERS, THINGS LIKE THAT, OCCASIONALLY, AND BRING UP TOPICS RELATED TO THAT. Q. YOU DON'T RECALL THE NAMES OF THESE VARIOUS PAPERS? A. NO. IT'D HAVE TO HAVE BEEN -- YOU KNOW, NO, I DON'T. SOME OF THEM WOULD BE IN THE BACK OF MY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 323 ANNUAL REPORT, THAT WOULD BRING UP CONCEPTS OR RELATIONSHIPS TO CATTAIL, OR TO SAWGRASS, OR SOME ASPECT OF WATER QUALITY. Q. THEY WOULD FIRST BE PROVIDED TO YOU, THOUGH, BY THE LEAGUE? A. NO. I WOULD BE THE ONE PROVIDING THEM. Q. OH, YOU WOULD PROVIDE THEM, AND THEN YOU WOULD PASS THEM ON TO THE LEAGUE, HERE'S SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU? A. I SAID, THIS MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU, YOU MIGHT WANT TO LOOK AT THIS, THIS MIGHT BE IMPORTANT, TAKE A LOOK AT THIS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- THIS IS AN AREA THAT MAY NEED FURTHER ANALYSIS. Q. IS THAT PRETTY MUCH IT? A. IN TERMS OF REVIEWING OTHER PEOPLE'S FIELDWORK, THAT'S TRUE. I THINK I'VE LOOKED AT -- I'VE LOOKED AT SOME OF THE PARK DOCUMENTS RELATING TO THE DOSING STUDY. THOSE THINGS HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED, THEIR DOSING STUDY. SOME OF THE DATA THAT'S BEEN MADE AVAILABLE FROM THE PARK, THAT'S BEEN LOOKED AT. AGAIN, I'VE NOT WRITTEN ANY FORMAL REPORTS ON THAT. I MAY HAVE MADE A FEW NOTES, I CAN'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 324 Q. THOSE WERE PROVIDED TO YOU BY THE LEAGUE OR THE ATTORNEYS? A. SOMEONE. I THINK PROBABLY MOST OF THESE DOCUMENTS, I THINK YOU'LL FIND, CAME FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THAT. CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS SEND ME DOCUMENTS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- THE GOVERNMENT SENDS ME DOCUMENTS. Q. BUT THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T SEND YOU THE DOSING STUDY DOCUMENTS? A. NO. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I GUESS FOR THE RECORD, MR. BURGESS, I'D LIKE TO CERTIFY THOSE QUESTIONS THAT YOU'VE INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER, AND I WILL CHOOSE:--- MR. BURGESS: THE ONLY QUESTION THAT I INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER -- SO, THAT WE'RE CLEAR FOR THE RECORD -- IS TO DISCUSS THE CRITICISMS CONTAINED IN A WRITTEN REPORT THAT HE DID, AT COUNSEL'S REQUEST, WITH RESPECT TO WILLIAM WALKER'S EARLY DOCUMENT ON THE PARK. THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION I'VE INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, THEN, I- WILL RESERVE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 325 MY RIGHT TO CALL THAT UP, AND TO HAVE IT -- HAVE IT ANSWERED. MR. BURGESS: I UNDERSTAND. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. MR. BURGESS: I JUST WANT TO BE SURE WE'RE CLEAR THAT I'VE ONLY INSTRUCTED HIM ON THAT ONE QUESTION. HE TOLD YOU THAT HE PERFORMED IT; HE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD SOME CRITICISMS OF IT. I'M JUST ASKING HIM NOT TO DISCUSS THE CRITICISMS OF IT, BECAUSE IT'S MY WORK PRODUCT AT THE MOMENT. MS. PONZOLI: YOU DON'T THINK THE IDENTITY OF THE OTHER WITNESS HE WAS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER? MR. BURGESS: OH, I'M SORRY. THERE WERE TWO QUESTIONS THIS MORNING. YES, THAT'S THE OTHER ONE THAT I'VE INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER. THE IDENTITY OF THE NON-TESTIFYING WITNESS. THAT'S RIGHT. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I JUST WANTED TO BE CLEAR--- MR. BURGESS: AND I DO, TOO. THANK YOU. MS. PONZOLI: --- I'M NOT SAYING I HAVE A PERFECT MEMORY, BUT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 326 Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU REVIEW ANY PERIPHYTON DOCUMENTS, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I MAY HAVE READ A FEW PAPERS RELATED TO PERIPHYTON, YES. I DID NOT FORMALLY REVIEW THOSE. SINCE PERIPHYTON IS NOT IN MY AREA OF EXPERTISE, I TURNED THOSE OVER TO -- AS I'VE DONE FROM TIME TO TIME WHEN WE WOULD GET INFORMATION THAT WAS APPROPRIATE -- I WOULD TURN THEM OVER TO, IN THAT CASE, DR. RADER AND DR. VYMAZAL. Q. OKAY. SO, IF PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK SENT YOU DOCUMENTS IN AN AREA THAT YOU FELT WAS MORE IN THE EXPERTISE OF ANOTHER SCIENTIST, YOU WOULD HAVE TURNED THEM OVER TO THAT PERSON? A. OCCASIONALLY. IF IT WAS JUST -- IF IT WAS, LIKE, PUBLISHED INFORMATION OR PAPERS WE DID NOT HAVE, OR, IN SOME CASES, IF IT WAS RAW DATA, OR -- I DON'T KNOW HOW RAW -- I DON'T BELIEVE I TURNED OVER VERY MUCH RAW DATA. I DONFT -- SOME OF IT IS PRETTY MUCH INDECIPHERABLE IN THE FORMS THAT IT'S--- Q. SURE. SURE. WHAT TYPE OF RAW DATA HAVE YOU RECEIVED FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK? WELL, I THINK I HAVE RECEIVED -- AND YOU'VE GOTTEN IT PRETTY MUCH IN YOUR FILE -- AND I CAN'T ATTEST DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 327 TO -- THAT A LOT OF IT, I'VE NEVER LOOKED AT, OTHER THAN JUST A CURSORY LOOK AT IT TO DECIDE THAT IT WOULD TAKE ME YEARS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THIS DATA WAS, AS YOU WILL FIND FROM MY DATA, SINCE IT'S TAKEN ME YEARS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS. IT WOULD BE -- YOU KNOW, I THINK ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS THERE WERE MAYBE ALGAL COUNTS OR MATERIALS. SOMETIMES THERE WERE SUMMARY LISTS OF THOSE, WHICH WOULD BE MORE USEFUL. BUT THE ACTUAL RAW DATA, YOU KNOW, PAGES WITHOUT DATES, AND TIMES AND PLACES, AND MAYBE THERE WAS A CODE, YOU DON'T HAVE THE CODE, SO. Q. IT'S BEEN AN INTERESTING CASE. ARE THESE DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, SOME OF THIS RAW DATA? A. YES, I'M SURE IT WAS. Q. OKAY. AND WAS SOME OF IT PRODUCED BY' THE STATE? A. I THINK SOME OF IT CAME FROM THE SOUTH FLOR--- Q. WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT? A. WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. Q. BUT IT ALL CAME FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK? A. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME THINGS I OBTAINED MYSELF. I WENT TO THE DISTRICT AND OBTAINED SOME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 328 OF THE REPORTS AND SOME DATA. AS I TOLD YOU BEFORE, I THINK THERE'S SOME DATA IN THOSE FILES WE GOT OFF OF COMPUTER RECORDS OURSELVES FROM DATABANKS. AND SOME WE SEARCHED OURSELVES. SOME OF IT'S OPEN PUBLIC LITERATURE. I CAN'T ATTEST TO HOW MANY, BUT I'D SAY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE MATERIAL IN THERE CAME FROM -- WELL, ALSO IT COULD BE SOME FROM THE CO-OP. THEY OCCASIONALLY WILL SEND ME -- I GET A LOT OF MATERIAL FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE. I'LL GET SCIENTIST WHOFLL SAY, I FOUND THIS NEAT ARTICLE ON THE EVERGLADES -- AND SEND IT. I'LL GET, YOU KNOW, NEWSPAPER CL,IPPINGS. I GET ALL SORTS OF THINGS. MY MAIL IS -- AND I ALMOST NEED SOMEONE JUST TO SORT OF THE MAIL OUT OF THIS. Q. I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM. A. I DON'T READ IT ALL. MS. PONZOLI: LET'S TAKE A BREAK, DR. RICHARDSON. (THEREUPON, A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. DR. RICHARDSON, YOU SAID THAT YOU HAL) REVIEWED DOCUMENTS ON THE ENR, ETCETERA, AND YOU NAMED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 329 SEVERAL THINGS. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU BRIEFLY YOUR OPINION OF THESE VARIOUS DOCUMENTS. YOU SAID THAT YOU HAD BEEN SENT ENR WORKSHOP DOCUMENTS. WHAT WERE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE ENR WORKSHOP DOCUMENTS? A. WELL, THERE WAS -- THAT WAS -- WHAT I REFERRED TO THERE, THAT WAS ACTUALLY A WORKSHOP THAT I ATTENDED--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND SO, ESSENTIALLY, I THINK I SAID THAT -- OR MEANT TO SAY, IF I DIDN'T, THAT ESSENTIALLY I HAD DISCUSSED, AFTER THAT MEETING, WITH SOME PEOPLE THE ESSENCE OF THE MEETING, THE UPSHOT. I ACTUALLY WROTE DR. KADLEC A LETTER -- AND I THINK YOU HAVE COPIES OF THAT OR DRAFTS OF THAT -- AS TO MY OPINIONS ON THAT. I REVIEWED THAT. I BASICALLY REVIEWED -- THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PRESENTERS AT THAT MEETING, AND I REVIEWED SOME OF THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THE MEETING. I HAD ACTUALLY TAKEN SOME NOTES AT THAT MEETING, SO I HAD SOME NOTES THAT I' KIND OF SUMMARIZED FROM, I BELIEVE; LIKE HIGH POINTS OF THE ENR, THE NEE[) FOR IT; THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE SAW THAT EXISTED; THE UTILIZATION OF ENR AS IT RELATES TO STAIS; THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 330 PROBLEMS OF TRANSFERABILITY; THE PROBLEMS OF THE SITE ITSELF. THERE WERE MANY ISSUES THAT WERE BROUGHT UP AT THE ENR MEETING BY MANY DIFFERENT EXPERTS. Q. WELL, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, WHAT I HAD REALLY BEEN DRIVING AT IN MY QUESTION WAS, IN YOUR OPINION, WHAT ARE THE HIGH POINTS OF THE ENR, AS YOU CALL THEM? A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN HIGH POINTS, DO YOU MEAN THE POSITIVE VERSUS THE NEGATIVE, OR DO YOU -- WHAT WERE THE KEY POINTS OF THAT MEETING? Q. YES, SIR. I THINK THAT'S THE SENSE IN WHICH YOU USED THE WORD HIGH POINTS, WAS IT NOT? A. YES. I GUESS -- I GUESS THE POSITIVE WAS THAT THERE WAS -- PEOPLE WERE EXCITED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF THE ENR PROJECT, THE RESEARCH ESPECIALLY FROM THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, THE ABILITY TO DO -- OR THE CAPAB -- LET'S SEE. THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT RESEARCH, I THINK, WAS QUITE REWARDING TO SOME OF THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT PEOPLE. THEY FELT THAT THINGS SHOULD BE DONE TO ALLOW THEM TO DESIGN SOME ACTIVITIES. THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ON ACTUALLY THE DESIGN ITSELF. THERE WERE SOME POSITIVES. I THINK A LOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 331 OF GOOD IDEAS CAME OUT OF THAT IN TERMS OF HOW IT MIGHT BE SET UP. Q. OKAY. WHAT WERE THE CRITICISMS OR THE PROBLEMS THAT YOU HAD OF THE ENR DESIGN? A. WELL, I THINK COMING TO CLOSURE, I GUESS, MY MAJOR ONE WAS -- AND, OF COURSE, STILL IS -- IS THE FACT THE ENR PROJECT IS NOT IN TIME SYNC WITH THE STAIS. THE AGREEMENTS, I GUESS, THAT'S BEEN -- THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT THAT'S BEEN PERMEATING FROM ON HIGH, SHALL WE SAY, BASICALLY DOESN'T ALLOW SCIENCE TO REACH ITS CONCLUSION. IT JUST -- IT DOESN'T -- OR EVEN START. IT ESSENTIALLY -- THE STATE HAS ONE VIEW AND THE FEDERAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SEEMS TO HAVE ANOTHER VIEW, IN TERMS OF THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, SO THEY ESSENTIALLY ARE ALLOWING THE ENR PROJECT AND THE STATS TO GO ON SIMULTANEOUSLY. SO, AS A SCIENTIST -- AND I THINK A NUMBER OF PEOPLE AT THAT MEETING AIJSO FELT THE SAME, AND -- THAT, IN FACT, THIS WAS NOT THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE. SECONDLY, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF ISSUES THAT WERE BROUGHT UP. I AM NOT SURE THEY'VE ALL BEEN ADDRESSED. THAT RELATES TO SUCH ISSUES AS BMPIS, WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THAT WOULD CHANGE THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 332 FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS GOING INTO THE SYSTEM, AND HOW THAT WOULD EFFECT, AND BE TESTED FOR, AND THE USE OF ALTERNATE PLANTS, RETENTION TIMES, DEPTH OF WATER, EFFECTS OF SOIL. THERE ARE A HOST OF ISSUES THAT ARE RELATED TO A PROJECT THAT HAS -- THE PROPOSED STA PROJECT IS NOT ONLY THE LARGEST EVER PROPOSED THAT I'VE EVER BEEN AWARE OF; IT IS ALSO ONE THATFS BEING BASED ON SOME PAUCITY OF DATA IN TERMS OF REFERENCE SITES, AS TO HOW THEY MIGHT WORK. AND SO THERE ARE A LOT OF DESIGN CRITERIA THAT REALLY NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. AND I THINK -- SO, I POINTED OUT WHERE I THINK THAT -- THE VALUE OF THE ENR PROJECT, I MEAN, AS I'VE SAID I THINK IN PUBLIC MEETINGS, AND I'VE SAID MANY TIMES, THE ENR HAS VALUE. SO, I THINK THAT, IN ESSENCE, YOU KNOW, COVERS IT. I DON'T REMEMBER -- IT'S BEEN QUITE A HILE -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE SPECIFIC. SURE. LET ME ASK YOU THIS. YOU SAY THAT -- I GUESS WHAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO IN THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT WAS THE -- HAVE YOU REVIEWED THAT DOCUMENT, THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT? A. NOT IN ANY DETAIL. I'VE LOOKED AT SOME PIECES OF IT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 333 Q. WHAT PIECES DID YOU LOOK AT? A. WELL, THERE'S SO MANY OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHICH ONE IS REALLY THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT. I THINK I LOOKED--- Q. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SHOW YOU ONE? A. SURE. THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL. MS. PONZOLI: I THINK THERE'S ONE UNDERNEATH OVER THERE. (THEREUPON, MR. PONZOLI AND MR. JONES CONFER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHEN YOU SAID IT CAME FROM "ON HIGH," YOU WERE JUST SORT OF TEASING, WEREN'T YOU? A. WELL. Q. DID YOU THINK IT WAS DIVINELY INSPIRED? A. NOT THAT HIGH. MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISSCUSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A NOTICE OF FILING, SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT -- IT HAS THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT -- INSPIRED BY WHOMEVER -- AND ASK YOU TO TELL ME WHAT PIECES OF IT YOU HAVE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 334 REVIEWED. A. WELL, I'LL HAVE TO GO -- BELIEVE ME, I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF DOCUMENTS, SO I DON'T KNOW IF -- I MEAN, I THINK I -- LET ME TAKE A MOMENT HERE TO LOOK AT THIS. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE YOU READY? A. I'M READY. Q. ALL RIGHT. WHICH PIECES DID YOU REVIEW OF THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I -- AND WHEN YOU SAY "REVIEW," I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I HAVE DONE. I HAVE RECEIVED, I THINK, SEVERAL COPIES OF THIS, THAT I HAVE REVIEWED IN A CURSORY MANNER. I HAVE NOT REVIEWE:D THIS WITH ANY DOCUMENTATION, NOR HAVE I DISCUSSED IN ANY REAT DETAIL MANY COMPONENTS. I THINK I'VE EXTRACTED FROM THIS A FEW OF THE PROPOSED STANDARDS AND SO FORTH THAT I'VE USED IN VARIOUS TALKS, AND -- BUT I HAVE NOT DONE A VERY EXTENSIVE ANALYSIS OF THIS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 335 Q. OKAY. WHAT PORTIONS OF IT, THE STANDARDS, ETCETERA, DO YOU OBJECT TO, OR HAVE CRITICISMS OF? A. WELL, AS I SAID, I'VE ONLY GIVEN IT A VERY CURSORY REVIEW, SO I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH AND LOOK SPECIFICALLY AT EACH ONE. I HAVEN'T HAD A -- IF YOU HAVE SPECIFIC ONES. Q. WELL, THE INTERIM STANDARDS FOR THE PARK AND THE REFUGE OR THE LONG-TERM STANDARDS. ARE YOU TELLING ME, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU HAVE REALLY NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THOSE ARE? A. WELL, I HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY ARE, BUT I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, I MEAN, THOSE NUMBERS HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY. Q. AND SO YOU'RE UNFAMILIAR WITH WHETHER THOSE NUMBERS WOULD APPEAR IN THE SWIM PLAN AGAIN, OR NOT? A. WELL, THAT -- AND I'M NOT SURE. I GET A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED IN THE MANGARELLA-DOUGLAS ACT AND THE SWIM PLAN, AND THE SWIM PLAN DOCUMENTS, AND THE FINAL SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT. I HAVE NOT SPENT A LOT OF TIME POURING OVER THIS, BUT I HAVE -- AS FAR AS I CAN LOOK AT HERE, EXTRACT -- OBVIOUSLY, THE FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION NUMBER IS ONE THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 336 SEEMS TO POP OUT HERE AS AN INTERIM STANDARD. AND WHEN I LOOK BACK THROUGH PARTS OF IT, THERE WERE STANDARDS SET FOR SHARK RIVER, AND THE LOXAHATCHEE, AND SO FORTH AND SO ON, YOU KNOW. Q. HAVE YOU EVER REVIEWED THOSE FOR PURPOSES OF DETERMINING IF YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE APPROPRIATE OR NOT? A. NO, I HAVEN'T. FOR THE LOXAHATCHEE, I HAVEN'T, BECAUSE I, AS YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T HAD ACCESS, SO I HAVE NO BASIS ON WHICH TO COMPARE THE LOXAHATCHEE. AND I HAVEN'T -- AND FOR THE PARK, AGAIN, NOT HAVING ACCESS, I HAVE NO BASIS FOR KNOWING WHAT'S INSIDE THE PARK. I HAVE LOOKED AT THEM IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DATA--- Q. WELL, LET ME--- A. --- FOR EXAMPLE, THE DATA GOING INTO THE PARK SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT IT IS ABOUT WHAT THE STANDARD IS, IT'S ABOUT TEN PARTS PER BILLION, SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION. Q. IT'S YOUR RECOLLECTION FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DATA? A. YEAH, I BELIEVE IT'S ABOUT TEN PARTS PER BILLION DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 337 THAT'S BEING GOING IN THERE FOR, YOU KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE STATISTICS IS RELATED TO IT, YOU KNOW, THE STANDARD ERRORS OF THAT, BUT IT'S NOT TOO BIG. SO, ESSENTIALLY, THAT'S WHAT I RECOLLECT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT IS RECOMMENDED HERE, BUT I'D HAVE TO GO SORT OF LINE BY LINE. (THEREUPON, MR. McCAUGHAN ENTERS THE DEPOSITION AT 11:51 A.M.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU WERE SAYING IN REGARD TO -- ANY OTHER COMMENTS ON IT? YOU JUST DON'T REALLY RECALL IT THAT WELL? A. WELL, I MEAN, I HAVE JUST A GENERAL CURSORY KNOWLEDGE. I DON'T GO THROUGH -- I HAVE NOT GONE THROUGH AND MADE EXTENSIVE NOTES, AND LINE BY LINE. I MEAN, AS I SAID, THE FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION COMES OUT AS AN INTERIM ONE. THE PARK HAS A TEN. I'M NOT SURE -- I HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING EXTENSIVELY ON THIS DOCUMENT. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ON THE FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION INTERIM STANDARD? A. I MEAN, IN WHAT TERMS? I MEAN, OPINION AS--- Q. WELL, DO YOU -- DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER IT'S AN APPROPRIATE INTERIM STANDARD TO BE GOING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS WHICH ARE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 338 THE EVERGLADES? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE APPROPRIATE -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE ASKING ME WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL ACHIEVE FIFTY, I DON'T KNOW THAT; AND I DON'T WHETHER FIFTY IS THE RIGHT CONCENTRATION AT THIS STAGE. Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE AN APPROPRIATE INTERIM CONCEIITRATION SHOULD BE? A. NOT UNTIL WE COMPLETE THE DOSING STUDY. THAT MIGHT GIVE US A MUCH BETTER HANDLE ON WHAT WE WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE. Q. AND WHEN WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE THAT WOULD BE? A. WELL, IT'S UNDERWAY NOW, AS YOU KNOW, AND IT COULD BE A YEAR. Q. YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE AN ANSWER III ONE YEAR? A. IT'S A WELL, WE'D HAVE -- WE'D HAVE SOME INDICATION. I MEAN, IT MAY BE AFTER A YEAR WE DON'T SEE A RESPONSE. Q. YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MACROPHYTE RESPONSES IN A SINGLE YEAR, DR. RICHARDSON? A. PROBABLY NOT. THERE COULD BE SOME. I DON'T BUT PROBABLY NOT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 339 Q. OKAY. HOW LONG WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE IT WOULD TAKE FOR MACROPHYTE RESPONSES TO SHOW UP AT THE DOSING STUDY? A. IT COULD BE SEVERAL YEARS. I'M NOT -- I'M NOT SURE. WE'RE -- WE'RE AHEAD OF THE GAME IN ONE SENSE; WE HAVE THE FERTILIZER STUDY 110 TRY TO DO THAT, IN THE SENSE THAT -- WHILE IT'S A MASS LOADING EXPERIMENT, IT TRIES TO GIVE US SOME RESPONSE. AND SO WE'RE NOW IN OUR THIRD YEAR ON THAT, SO IN ONE CASE WE'RE A LITTLE BIT UP ON THAT. SO, IT MAY GIVE US SOME INFORMATION ON THAT. THE DOSING STUDY, OBVIOUSLY, IS JUST COMING ON LINE IS GOING TO TAKE -- I CAN'T SAY HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT TAKES SEVERAL YEARS, MAYBE LONGER. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. Q. WELL, I GUESS I'M CONFUSED. A. RELATED TO MACROPHYTES. Q. WELL, WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD HAVE AN ANSWER AS TO AN APPROPRIATE STANDARD? I MEAN, COULD YOU GIVE US AN ESTIMATE OF WHEN YOU THINK THAT THE DOSING STUDY WOULD YIELD SUFFICIENT DATA TO GIVE US AN ANSWER AS TO WHAT AN APPROPRIATE STANDARD WOULD BE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 340 A. I THINK THAT WE--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. --- I WOULD THINK -- IT'S HARD TO DETERMINE. AS I SAID, IF YOU GET A RESPONSE, IT MAY BE POSSIBLE FOR SOME COMPONENTS YOU GET A RESPONSE EARLY, OR IT MAY NOT BE. I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE MANY COMPONENTS OF THE SYSTEM WEFRE LOOKING AT. I THINK THE PARK RAN THEIR STUDY FOR SEVERAL YEARS BEFORE THEY GOT A RESPONSE. Q. UH-HUH. UH-HUH. A. --- SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO KNOW IN THE EXPERIMENT BEFORE YOU DO THE EXPERIMENT. I MEAN, AS I WAS SAYING, THE FERTILIZER -- WE DON'T HAVE JUST THE DOSING STUDY, WE HAVE THE FERTILIZER STUDY, TOO, WHICH WILL GIVE US A LITTLE LONGER TIME ON THE MACROPHYTES. BUT THE -- SOME OF THE ORGANISMS RESPOND SOONER, LIKE PERIPIIYTON AND SO FORTH. Q. WELL, COMBINING THE FERTILIZER STUDY AND THE DOSING STUDY, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH AN APPROPRIATE INTERIM STANDARD WITHIN A YEAR? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. IT MAY BE POSSIBLE, IT MAY NOT. I DON'T KNOW. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 341 Q. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW? A. I DON'T KNOW. Q. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THERE WOULD BE AN ANSWER AVAILABLE? A. NO. I MEAN, IT COULD BE -- IT COULD BE SOONER, BUT IT MIGHT -- YOU KNOW, I JUST CAN'T SAY AT THIS TIME. I MEAN, IT WOULD BE LIKE -- I DON'T PARTICULARLY FEEL I CAN BE HELD TO IT, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO RESPOND. I MEAN, WE -- WE THOUGHT WOULD HAVE THE DOSING STUDY GOING, OH, A YEAR AGO, OR CLOSE TO IT, BUT WE HAD ALL SORTS OF--- Q. I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED ABOUT THAT, DR. RICHARDSON. I HAVE TO TELL YOU TRUTHFULLY, IT'S TAKEN A LONG TIME TO GET THAT DOSING STUDY UP AND GOING, AND IT WASN'T ALL HURRICANE RELATED. IS THERE JUST LIKE A REAL SIMPLE, TWENTY WORDS OR LESS, EXPLANATION FOR WHY? A. YES, I -- WELL--- Q. YOU THOUGHT YOU'D ALREADY GIVEN ME THAT? A. NO. NO. NO. IT HAPPENS TO BE, I THINK, A ONE OF A TYPE STUDY. PEOPLE HAVE NOT DONE THAT STUDY OF THAT MAGNITUDE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE EVERGLADES WITH NO ELECTRICITY, TRYING TO USE A SORT OF A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 342 PLUG FLOW THEORY IN A SENSE OF PUSHING WATER THROUGH, AND KEEPING A CONSTANT CONCENTRATION RATHER THAN A GRADIENT. AND, BASICALLY, IT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN GO TO THE SHELF. WE DID NOT WANT TO DUPLICATE WHAT WAS DONE BY THE PARK SINCE IT WASN'T REPLICATED. WE WANTED -- WE HAD TO HAVE A YEAR'S WORTH OF BACKGROUND, EQUILIBRATION DATA. WEFVE HAD SOME STAFFING PROBLEMS; WE'VE HAD HURRICANE PROBLEMS; WE'VE HAD SOME DESIGN PROBLEMS -- NOTHING THAT'S AFFECTED THE SITE, PER SE, BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN VERY CAREFUL TO KEEP THAT. BUT IT'S A -- IT'S A DIFFICULT EXPERIMENT. IT'S NOT AN EASY EXPERIMENT TO DO. Q. SURE. A. SOMEONE WHO WOULD TRY TO DO THIS WOULD FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT. Q. ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE AN ONGOING PROBLEM WITH THE SOLAR DRIVEN SYSTEM AND ALL THE CLOUDINESS AND RAIN IN THE EVERGLADES? A. WE'VE INCREASED THE SOLAR PANELS AND THE BATTERY COMPLEXES, SO I THINK WE'VE OVERCOME THAT. AND WE HAD SOME INITIAL PROBLEMS. BOB JOHNSON IS VERY CAPABLE IN DESIGNING THOSE, AND SO I THINK WE'VE OVERCOME SOME OF THAT. WE MAY HAVE TO GO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 343 TO SOME MORE EXPENSIVE BATTERIES THAN WE ONCE THOUGHT, BUT I THINK WE'VE GOT MOST OF THE BUGS WORKED OUT. Q. OKAY. OKAY, ON THE ENR -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR COMMENTS ON THE ENR. YOU'VE TALKED SEVERAL TIMES ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF TRANSFERABILITY. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? A. WELL, PRIMARILY, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO HAVE TRANSFERABILITY IF THE STUDY'S NOT ALLOWED TO GO; HOW CAN YOU TRANSFER SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T COMPLETED. I MEAN, MY POINT IS -- I THINK THAT IT WAS MY PRIMARY CONCERN IS IF -- IF THE STAFS -- YOU HAVE A THIRTY-SEVEN HUNDRED ACRE EXPERIMENT, ROUGHLY, AND THEN YOU'RE BASICALLY, IN MY OPINION AS A SCIENTIST, SETTING UP ANOTHER THIRTY-FIVE THOUSAND ACRE EXPERIMENT AT THE SAME TIME. SO, ESSENTIALLY, HOW CAN YOU TRANSFER THE,' INFORMATION FROM ONE STUDY THAT YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HARDLY STARTED? THERE'S NOTHING TO TRANSFER, ONLY LITTLE A. BITS AND PIECES. AND SO I THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM TO START OFF, AND THAT'S A PRETTY MAJOR PROBLEM IN TERMS OF TRANSFER--- OKAY. YOU DON'T THINK YOU'VE HAD A TWENTY YEAR EXPERIMENT GOING IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 344 A. IT'S NOT AN EXPERIMENT, PER SE, OR AT LEAST NOT A CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT. THERE HAS BEEN -- I THINK THAT'S PART AND PARCEL -- PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH THE WATER CONSERVATION AREA DATA IS THAT WHILE IT IS INFORMATIVE AND IT IS HELPFUL, THERE ARE SOME CAVEATS THAT ONE HAS TO LOOK AT, WHICH I MENTIONED THE OTHER DAY. THE WATER LEVELS HAVE BEEN RAISED AND LOWERED SIGNIFICANTLY IN THAT AREA. THERE HAVE BEEN DROUGHT PROBLEMS, RETENTION TIME, THE WATER MOVEMENT, THE FLOW. A LOT OF THOSE FACTORS HAVE NOT BEEN STUDIED IN ANY GREAT DETAIL, AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF HAND WAVING AS TO HOW THOSE NUMBERS CAN BE TRANSFERRED WHEN, IN FACT, SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS DON'T EXIST. SO--- Q. BUT YOU DO BELIEVE, AS YOU SIT HERE -- CAUSE I THINK YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY AND MAYBE EVEN -- I GUESS YESTERDAY -- THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A HAS FUNCTIONED AS AN EFFECTIVE SINK FOR NUTRIENTS FOR THAT PERIOD OF TIME, HAVEN'T YOU? A. I BELIEVE THAT AREA HAS FUNCTIONED AS A SINK, BUT IT HAS -- IT'S NOT FUNCTIONED -- ITFS FUNCTIONED IN SOME WAYS THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN SOME PEOPLE MAY SURMISE. IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR BELIEF IS THAT WE DON'T DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 345 UNDERSTAND 2A? A. NOT AS WELL AS WE -- NOT AS WELL AS WE MIGHT. AND WE DON'T UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE VARIABILITIES THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE TO GET TO THOSE RATES. IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT OUT TO BE, IN TERMS OF A BLACK BOX, FOR EXAMPLE. Q. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE BLACK BOX -- YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT YESTERDAY, ALSO -- ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE CONCEPT OF A MASS BALANCE, WHERE YOU MEASURE THE PHOSPHORUS IN AND THE PHOSPHORUS OUT? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. WELL, QUITE OFTEN, THAT CAN BE ONE WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE LOOK AT IT. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE MECHANISMS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE INSIDE. THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE MECHANISMS INSIDE THAT AREA. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE MECHANISMS--- A. I HAVE, MY STAFF HAS. Q. --- FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS. A. ROUGHLY. Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERS? A. WE HAVE SOME. Q. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 346 A. WE HAVE QUESTIONS, TOO. Q. I GUESS -- I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU, WHERE I'M DRIVING IS, IS THAT WITH THE ENR, HOW MANY ANSWERS DO YOU NEED BEFORE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING? A. WELL, I THINK I SAID AT SEVERAL MEETINGS, THERE ARE SOME MAJOR QUESTIONS THAT -- WE KNOW A LOT. I'M NOT SAYING WE'RE NOT -- WE'RE NOT DEVOID OF INFORMATION; WE KNOW A LOT. BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS -- AT LEAST IN MY MIND -- AND I JUST HAVE -- I'M NOT FAMILIAR A LOT OF THE INFORMATION THAT PEOPLE MAY HAVE THAT I HAVEN'T SEEN. SO, I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST, BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN SHOWN, NOR HAVE I SEEN AT PUBLIC MEETINGS, I DON'T SEE CLEAR DATA ON RETENTION TIMES AND FLOW RATES THROUGH THE SYSTEM. I DON'T SEE -- I SEE ONLY -- YOU KNOW, THE OPTIMUM WOULD BE IF WE HAD -- I THINK THE ACCRETION DATA IS QUITE GOOD. I THINK WE HAVE SOME SHC@RING UP TO DO IN THAT AREA, SOME REFINING, BUT I THINK WE HAVE A PRETTY GOOD HANDLE ON THAT. I THINK THE WATER CONCENTRATION DATA IS NOT SO GOOD. AND IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE HAD TWENTY-SIX YEARS OF' CONCENTRATION DATA FOR THAT AREA. IU' WOULD BE VERY NICE IF WE HAD FLOW DATA FROM THE GATES TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 347 SEVERAL POINTS IN THERE; WE DON'T HAVE THAT DATA. IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE HAD WATER DEPTHS, OTHER THAN ONE STATION SITTING IN THE MIDDLE, AND A FEW OTHER SPARSE PARTIAL RECORDS; WE DON'T HAVE THAT, AND SO YOU COULD GO ON AND ON. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THESE QUESTIONS THAT, TO ME, ADD UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT ONE WILL HAVE THE SAME -- AND, OF COURSE, THE ENR PROPERTY IS BUILT ON FORMER AGRICULTURAL LAND, VERY DEEP PEATED LAND, AND LAND THAT HAD BEEN FARMED PRIOR TO THIS. SO, WE HAVE SOME QUESTIONS ON THE SORPTION OF PHOSPHORUS, THAT WE HAVE SOME LABORATORY STUDIES ON, BUT WE DON'T HAVE TOO MANY -- TOO MUCH DATA ON THAT. AND THEN THE OTHER COMPONENT IS THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A GOES DRY, AND WE NEED TO TEST THE EFFECTS OF DRY AND WET PERIODS. Q. HOW DEEP IS THE PEAT AT THE ENR? A. OH, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, BUT IT'S I THINK IT'S SEVERAL METERS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I COULD BE WRONG; IT MAY BE A METER AND A HALF, BUT IT'S -- IT MAY BE SEVERAL METERS. Q. OKAY. YOU'VE INDICATED THAT YOU THINK THAT THERE'S A PAUCITY OF DATA FOR SETTING UP THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 348 STA'S. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I SAID WE HAVE SOME COMPONENTS. Q. RIGHT. A. WE BASICALLY HAVE COMPONENTS TO -- FOR CERTAIN AREAS, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT I THINK WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE. THE ENIZ PROJECT, IF THIS IS TO BE A SUCCESS, AND IT'S TO BE DONE RIGHT, AND IF THERE WAS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT -- IF I THOUGHT PERSONALLY THAT, IN FACT, THE EVERGLADES WAS GOING TO CEASE TO EXIST TOMORROW BECAUSE OF IMMEDIATE THREAT -- ONE MIGHT MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS, BUT -- ON A VERY RAPID -- WHAT I CALL FAST TRACK. BUT I DON'T THINK THE EVIDENCE IS AT HAND THAT THIS IS A -- THIS IS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO THE EXISTENCE OF THE EVERGLADES. Q. OKAY. I THINK I DO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU FEEL THAT WAY. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WINDOW OF' TIME IS FOR ADDRESSING THESE PROBLEMS? A. WHEN YOU SAY "WINDOW OF TIME," DO YOU MEAN HOW MUCH DO TIME DO WE HAVE--- Q. THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT TIME PROBLEMS, RIGHT. RIGHT. A. WELL, I WOULD THINK WE HAVE AT LEAST A DECADE THAT WE COULD DEAL WITH THIS, MAYBE MORE. THAT'S NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 349 TO SAY THAT I DON'T RECOMMEND BMPIS AND REDUCING PHOSPHORUS AT THE SOURCE AS MUCH AS TECHNOLOGY AND ECONOMICS WILL ALLOW TO BE DONE. Q. BUT, IN ESSENCE, IF I UNDERSTOOD YOU CORRECTLY, YOUR CLIENTS REALLY REJECTED THAT ADVICE FROM THE BEGINNING. THEY HAVE BEEN COMPELLED UNDER STATE LAW TO REDUCE BY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25%), BUT YOU WERE NOT ENCOURAGED NOR COMMISSIONED TO DO RESEARCH IN THE EAA ON BMP'S, WERE YOU? MR. GREEN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS:. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. MS. PONZOLI: I'M SURPRISED. A. I WASN'T ASKED TO DO RESEARCH IN THE EAA. AS I SAID, I HAD A FULL PLATE IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREA. Q. YOU WERE ASKED TO DO BMP'S IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, THOUGH, WEREN'T YOU? A. YEAH. IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, MY A. LONG-TERM GOAL IS TO BASICALLY COLLECT ENOUGH DATA TO BASICALLY LOOK AT GIVING GUIDANCE -- AND WHICH IS STARTED OUT TO DO -- TO WORK -- AS YOU WILL FIND FROM SOME OF MY EARLY LETTERS IN THERE -- TO WORK WITH THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AND TRY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 350 TO COME UP WITH SOME -- WITH DATA THAT I THOUGHT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, THAT WOULD HELP THEM. I SAW IT AT THAT TIME, AND STILL SEE IT AT THIS TIME, AS A TEAM EFFORT THAT THAT DATA CAN BE UTILIZED TO HELP WITH SOME MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES, ALBEIT THAT ALL SCIENCE DOESN'T LEAD TO EVERY -- IMMEDIATELY TRANSFERABLE MANAGEMENT PIECES. I MEAN, SOME DOES AND SOMETIMES DOES NOT. Q. THIS WAS RESEARCH GEARED TOWARD MANAGEMENT GOALS, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. IN TERMS OF MY VIEW--- Q. YES. A. --- YES. I BASICALLY -- MY PROPOSAL WAS WRITTEN -- I SHIFTED THE PROPOSAL IN TERMS OF WHAT I THOUGHT WAS APPROPRIATE, BECAUSE MY GOAL IS BASICALLY TO MAKE SURE THE EVERGLADES EXIST IN THE FUTURE, TOO. SO, I SHIFTED COMPONENTS OF THIS TO WHAT I THOUGHT WOULD BE HELPFUL IN TERMS OF THE SCIENCE THAT WOULD GIVE US BETTER INFORMATION TO HELP MANAGE THOSE SYSTEMS, IN TERMS OF VEGETATION AND WATER, AND UNDERSTANDING THE DYNAMICS OF PHOSPHORUS. OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE NUTRIENTS, MY UNDERSTANDING FROM YOUR GOALS, AS STATED THROUGHOUT MULTIPLE DOCUMENTS, IS THAT YOU WERE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 351 AND STILL ARE, LOOKING TO SEE HOW MUCH PHOSPHORUS THIS SYSTEM CAN HOLD AS A SINK. IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT? A. THAT'S ONE OF THE GOALS. I THINK IT'S THE SECOND GOAL OR WHATEVER, YEAH. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WE HAVE TEN YEARS, MAYBE MORE, BEFORE YOU WOULD FEEL THERE WAS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT, WOULD THAT -- WOULD WE HAVE AN IMMEDIATE THREAT IN TEN YEARS? A. NO, I JUST USED THAT FIGURE. AS I SAID, I DON'T FEEL THERE IS A THREAT. Q. A THREAT, OR AN IMMEDIATE THREAT? A. WELL, AFTER THIRTY PLUS YEARS OR FORTY YEARS OF EAA RUNOFF, WE HAVE -- AND I SAID BEFORE, IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THERE IS A TWO OR THREE PERCENT (2% OR 3%) AREA THAT HAS BEEN EFFECTED. AND IT IS STILL -- EVEN THOSE AREAS ARE STILL FUNCTIONING AS WETLANDS, ALBEIT THEY MAY BE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT IN THEIR FUNCTIONS THAN THEY WERE, SOME POSITIVE ASPECTS OF THAT, WHICH WE'VE ALLUDED TO IN OUR REPORTS. BUT I WOULDN'T SAY JUST TEN YEARS; I THINK IT'S VERY HARD TO SAY TEN YEARS. BUT I -- I WOULD SAY MY PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT IS THAT WE'RE NOT UNDER AN IMMEDIATE THREAT FROM PHOSPHORUS AS A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 352 MAJOR THREAT TO THE EVERGLADES -- AT LEAST THE EVIDENCE I HAVE. I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE LOXAHATCHEE, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN IN THERE. I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE PARK, BECAUSE I'VE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO GO IN THERE. Q. SO, YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) IS REALLY WATER CONSERVATION -- THE DAMAGE IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A AND 3A? A. IT MAY INCLUDE SOME OF 1, TOO, BECAUSE I BELIEVE ON SOME OF THE FLY-OVERS AND SOME OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS I'VE LOOKED AT INCLUDED 1. AND SOME OF THE LANDSAT STUFF, I THINK I'VE LOOKED AT IN GENERAL WAYS, I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW MUCH OF THE PARK IT INCLUDES. I ACTUALLY VISITED THE PARK IN AN EARLY MEETING AT THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK, AND SPENT SOME TIME LOOKING AT THEIR REMOTE SENSING PHOTOGRAPHS EARLY ON. THEY WERE ACTUALLY MAPPING ALL THE EVERGLADES PARK--- Q. OKAY. A. --- SO, I KNEW SEVERAL OF THE STUDENTS SO I SPENT SOME TIME TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THAT AND LOOKING AT THEIR--- SO, YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) IS BASED ON THE LANDSAT INTERPRETATION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 353 A. IT'S BASED ON SOME OF THAT, AND SOME OTHER ASPECTS, YES, AND SOME OF THE -- IT'l@3 A SORT OF A COMPILATION OF THINGS. Q. WHAT ARE THE OTHER ASPECTS THAT IT'S BASED ON? A. OH, DOCUMENTS THAT I'VE REVIEWED, AN[) SOME OF MY PERSONAL OVER FLIGHTS, AND I THINK SOME OF LARSON'S INFORMATION THAT I HAVE SEEN. Q. HIS VEGETATION--- A. RIGHT. FOR--- Q. --- MAPPING? A. --- FOR ONE LOCATION. Q. IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A? A. 2A. Q. DID YOU USE THAT INFORMATION FOR SETTING UP YOUR TRANSECTS IN THE BEGINNING FOR THE GRADIENT STUDY? A. I CAN'T -- NO, I THINK -- I'M TRYING TO THINK. I THINK WE STARTED -- THE WAY I STARTEE) THAT WAS, ESSENTIALLY, CHRIS CRAFT AND I, WE DID OUR -- SORT OF WHAT I CALL OUR REGIONAL SURVEY. WE ACTUALLY TOOK PLOTS IN VARIOUS PLACES, IN 2 A14D IN 3, AND LOOKED AT VEGETATION AND LOOKED AT SOME SOIL. SO, WE HAD SORT OF A VIEW. WE WERE IN ALLIGATOR ALLEY AND WE WERE DOWN AT THE TWELVE STRUCTURES, AND WE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 354 WERE NEAR THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND WE WERE IN THE CENTER OF 2A, AND SO WE LANDED AND SAMPLED AT A VARIETY OF PLACES. I LOOKED AT STEVE DAVIS' -- SOME EARLY REPORTS. I LOOKED AT DISTRICT REPORTS. I LOOKED AT SOME AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS, THAT I REMEMBER. THEN I TOOK A SERIES OF FLIGHTS ON THE GROUND -- DROPPED IN ON THE GROUND, LOOKED AT THAT. AND THEN I ESTABLISHED THE GRADIENT. Q. YOU, PERSONALLY? A. I, PERSONALLY. Q. OKAY. WE'LL GET INTO THAT LATER; I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT NOW. A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT I ESTABLISHED EVERY SINGLE POINT, BUT I PERSONALLY LAID IT OUT, AND THEN DID -- I CAN'T REMEMBER. I DON'T -- I DIDNFT KEEP FIELD NOTES ON THAT, BUT I THINK SOMEBODY -- YOU HAVE SOME OF MY RECORDS, ACTUALLY. I'VE NEVER GONE BACK AND COUNTED. MY GRAD STUDENTS MAY ARGUE THAT I DISAPPEARED ON ONE OR TWO OF THOSE LOCATIONS, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER. OKAY. IN DETERMINING YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) OF THE AREA THAT HAS SUSTAINED HARM OR DAMAGE, WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU USING, WHAT DATA ARE YOU USING? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 355 MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WHAT DATA AM I USING IN TERMS OF PROJECTING TWO OR THREE PERCENT (2% OR 3%)? Q. YES, SIR. A. IT'S ONLY A -- AS I SAID, I USED, I THINK, SOME AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS; I DID SOME GROUND TRUTHING; I USED--- Q. WERE THE AERIAL PHOTOS PRODUCED TO THE UNITED STATES AMONG YOUR EVERGLADES DOCUMENT? A. SOME OF THEM WERE. I THINK THERE ARE SOME JUST GENERAL AND CLASSIFIED LANDSAT PHOTOS THAT ARE IN THERE. Q. DID YOU JUST RUN A LITTLE EIGHT BY TEN BLACK AND WHITES, THEY WERE REDUCED TO? CAUSE I CERTAINLY DIDN'T GET ANY COLOR REPRODUCTIONS. A. WELL, I THINK THERE'S SOME COLORED ONES IN THERE. THERE MAY BE SOME COLOR SLIDES IN THERE. Q. OKAY. AMONG YOUR COLORED SLIDES, THERE MIGHT BE--- A. THERE MAY BE SOME IN THERE. BUT THERE ARE ALSO I DON'T BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE -- THE ERIM SLIDES. MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T HAVE THE ERIM SLIDES; THOSE WERE PRIVILEGED, 'IS THAT WHAT -- THOSE WERE HELD BACK, MR. BURGESS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 356 MR. BURGESS: YES. I BELIEVE THEREFS FIVE OR SIX. MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU HAVE NOT -- YOU HAVEN'T DECIDED WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO USE THOSE OR NOT, OR YOU'RE NOT USING THEM, OR--- MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK WE'VE DECIDED. I'LL REEXAMINE THAT IN LIGHT OF HIS TESTIMONY WITH RESPECT TO HAVING REVIEWED THOSE SLIDES IN ADDITION TO OTHERS TO SUPPORT HIS TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 13%) FIGURE. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) FIGURE, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT A LANDSAT IMAGE, WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU USING TO DETERMINE THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 19%) AREA THAT'S HARMED OR DAMAGED? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. I DON'T BELIEVE THIS WITNESS HAS SAID THAT THERE WAS HARM OR DAMAGE. I THINK HE SAID THERE WERE AREAS WHERE THERE WAS SOME BENEFITS, AND THERE WERE SOME CHANGES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 357 MS. PONZOLI: YES, HE DID SAY BENEFITS, MR. GREEN, I WAS GOING TO ASK HIM ABOUT -- MR. GREEN: WELL, I -- AND, AGAIN --- MS. PONZOLI: --- THE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF IT. MR. GREEN: SURE. MS. PONZOLI: I"M VERY INTERESTED IN HOW THESE AREAS HAVE POSITIVELY BENEFITED FROM THIS. MR. GREEN: BUT MY POINT IS, HE NEVER USED THE WORDS HARMED OR DAMAGED; YOU DID. MS. PONZOLI: HE DIDN,T OBIJECT TO THEM EITHER, WHEN HE ANSWERED THE QUESTION PREVIOUSLY. MR. GREEN: NO, BUT I DID. MS. PONZOLI: I REMEMBER. MR. GREEN: THANK YOU. WITNESS: I'M SORRY. WHERE ARE WE NOW? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) HAVE WE IMPROVED TWO TO THREE PERCENT OF THE EVERGLADES, DR. RICHARDSON, IS THAT YOUR OPINION, THAT TWO TO THREE PERCENT OF THE TOTAL EVERGLADES IS NOW BETTER BECAUSE OF THIRTY YEARS OF EAA RUNOFF? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 358 A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. Q. I DON'T THINK YOU DID EITHER. ARE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) AFFECTED AS FUNCTIONING EVERGLADES? A. FUNCTIONING EVERGLADES -- I THINK THI-,Y'RE STILL FUNCTIONING AS PART OF THE EVERGLADES, IF YOU'RE ASKING THAT QUESTION, YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT -- THEN WHAT IS YOUR STANDARD FOR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)? TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) ARE WHAT? A. THE BASIS FOR THAT WOULD BE PRIMARILNF--- Q. WHAT ARE THEY? MY QUESTION IS, WHAT ARE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)? YOU'VE PLACED THEM IN A DIFFERENT CATEGORY FROM OTHER EVERGLADES. A. WELL, PRIMARILY, THE VEGETATION, OR ON SOME OF THE LANDSAT PHOTOS YOU'VE SEEN THE COLOR INFRARED, OR SOME OF THE ERIM PHOTOS HAVE USED THE DIFFERENT SYSTEM TO BASICALLY -- WITH GROUND TRUTHING BASICALLY -- CATEGORIZE VEGETATION TYPES, WHICH IS TYPICALLY DONE WITH REMOTE SENSING, SO--- Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT. WHAT ARE THEY, THOUGH? I KNOW THERE'S VEGETATION THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES. WHAT IS THIS VEGETATION? A. WELL, PRIMARILY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN AREA THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 359 IS PRIMARILY SHIFTED INTO CATTAIL AREAS. Q. OKAY. HAVE THEY LOST HABITAT VALUE? A. THAT'S -- I THINK OUR REPORTS FROM THAT, I THINK YOU WILL -- YOU DEPOSED DR. RADER. 'I THINK WE'VE LOOKED AT IN TERMS OF SOME TROPHIC LEVEL DYNAMICS. IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THERE WAS BEE14 DRAMATIC SHIFTS FROM, LET'S SAY, SAWGRASS TO CATTAIL, BECAUSE THEY -- YOU KNOW, THE EVERGLADES IS A VERY HARSH ENVIRONMENT. IT'S AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT PLACE TO MAKE A LIVING. AND AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, PHOSPHORUS IS A LIMITING NUTRIENT AND SO IT ACTUALLY ENDS UP BEING A SUBSIDY FOR SYSTEMS THAT IT'S ADDED TO, UP TO A POINT. AND SC) YOU END UP WITH INCREASES IN MANY THINGS. IN FACT, I THINK WE'VE REPORTED -- DR. RADER -- I THINK, SIX OR SEVEN TIMES INVERTEBRATES AND FISH. Q. THESE ARE IN OPEN WATER ENRICHED AREAS, ISN'T THAT ACCURATE, DR. RICHARDSON? DR. RADER'S WORK WAS DONE IN OPEN WATER--- A. YES. Q. --- ENRICHED AREAS? A. YES. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THIS TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) OF THE TOTAL EVERGLADES THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 360 YOU'RE TESTIFYING IS OPEN WATER ENRICHED AREA? A. I WOULDN'T KNOW THE PERCENTAGE. I DON'T KNOW THE PERCENTAGE OF IT OFFHAND. I HAVENFT GROUND TRUTHED THE PERCENTAGE OF THAT. Q. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT IT IS SOME INFINITESIMAL FRAGMENT? MR. GREEN: OBJECTION. A. IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OPEN WATER. I MEAN, THERE'S STANDING WATER THERE. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT OPEN BODIES OF CLEAR WATER, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO? Q. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE AREAS THAT DR. RADER DID HIS WORK IN. A. WELL, HE DID -- DR. RADER DID WORK IN CATTAIL, IN SAWGRASS, AND IN THE SLOUGHS. Q. BUT HE DID THEM IN OPEN WATER. HE HAS TESTIFIED OVER AND OVER IN HIS DEPOSITION, DR. RICHARDSON, THAT THEY WERE IN OPEN WATER ENRICHED SITES, AND--- A. RIGHT. WELL, HE'S -- HE'S DONE -- TO MY KNOWLEDGE, HE HAS DONE SOME IN CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS, TOO. BUT IF HE'S TESTIFIED HE'S DONE MOSTLY IN OPEN WATER, THAT'S FINE. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 361 PERCENTAGE OF THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) THAT THOSE -- THOSE AREAS ARE? A. I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT FIGURE, NO. Q. OKAY. WILL YOU AGREE THAT IT IS SOME VERY SMALL FRACTION OF THE ENRICHED AREA? A. I WOULD AGREE IT'S A SMALL FRACTION. Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT POSITIVE BENEFITS, YOU ARE REALLY REFERRING TO THE INCREASED MACROINVERTEBRATES THAT DR. RADER FOUND IN THESE ENRICHED SITES, ARE YOU NOT? A. WELL, THAT'S ONE ASPECT. BUT INCREASED PRODUCTION, INCREASED CARBON STORAGE--- Q. YOU CONSIDER THAT A BENEFIT TO AN OLIGOTROPHIC SYSTEM? A. INCREASED CARBON STORAGE, I CONSIDER A BENEFIT. ESPECIALLY AS AN ECOLOGIST FOR ALL THE GLOBAL C02 PROBLEMS WE HAVE, I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT ASPECT. I THINK IT'S -- THOSE AREAS HAVE BEEN FUNCTIONING AS AN -- THERE'S A CERTAIN INCREASE IN NUTRIENT STORAGE, I THINK. SO, THEY'VE BEEN USING THIS -- THEY HAVE A BENEFIT THERE. Q. IS IT YOUR RECOMMENDATION TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT THEY'VE GOT THIS ALL WRONG, AND THAT WE OUGHT TO ENCOURAGE THE EAA TO SEND MORE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 362 NUTRIENT RUNOFF INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE SUGGESTED THAT. I THINK I HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY SHOULD CONSIDER BMP'S, AND THAT PHOSPHORUS SHOULD BE REDUCED WHERE IT CAN BE REDUCED. Q. WHY? A. BECAUSE I THINK IN TERMS OF THE EVERGLADES ITSELF, THE PHOSPHORUS ITSELF PROBABLY SHOULD BE KEPT TO A MINIMAL IN THAT STATE IF THE GOAL IS TO TRY TO RESTORE, I GUESS, SOME OF THOSE AREAS. Q. RESTORE THEM INTO WHAT? A. WELL, THAT IS THE QUESTION, RESTORE THEM TO WHAT. Q. WELL, WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION? A. WELL, TRY TO RESTORE THEM BACK TO SOME COMPONENT OF WHAT WAS THERE. IN SOME PLACES, .-IT WAS A HABITAT THAT HAS BEEN TOTALLY DESTROYED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT -- WILLOW HABITATS, TREE ISLANDS. THIS IS THE HYDROLOGY ISSUE THAT YOU'RE REFERRING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 363 TO? A. RIGHT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). SO, IS IT YOUR RECOMMENDATION TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IT RIP OUT THE CENTRAL AND SOUTHERN FLORIDA FLIGHT CONTROL PROJECT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OUGHT TO SERIOUSLY CONSIDER IF THEY WANT TO GIVE THE PUBLIC A FAIR VIEW OF HOW THEY WANT TO MAINTAIN THE EVERGLADES, TO LOOK AT HOW WATER IS DISTRIBUTED IN SOUTH FLORIDA. SO, YOUR RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COMMISSION RESEARCH, OR A STUDY OF HOW TO IMPROVE THE HYDROLOGY? A. I BELIEVE THEY COULD DO THAT. I BELIEVE THEY COULD LOOK AT CERTAIN COMPONENTS OF THE DRAINAGE SYSTEM. AND I BELIEVE THEY COULD STOP PUMPING MASSIVE VOLUMES OF WATER TO THE GULF AND TO THE ATLANTIC. Q. WOULD YOU RECOMMEND STORING IT IN THE LAKE, IS THAT YOUR RECOMMENDATION? A. I HAVE -- I HAVEN'T FORMULATED ALL MY FINAL OPINIONS AS TO HOW I WOULD LIKE TO SEE -- I'M DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 364 THINKING ABOUT THAT AS A LANDSCAPE VIEW OF HOW SOUTH FLORIDA SHOULD BE TREATED. BUT WATER IS FIRST AND FOREMOST THE REAL MAJOR ISSUE, THE DISTRIBUTION AND ALLOCATION OF WATER. AND IT'S MY OPINION THAT THE KISSIMMEE AND LAKE OKEECHOBEE AND THE EVERGLADES HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT ON A LANDSCAPE VIEW. AND, AS I'VE SAID BEFORE PUBLICLY, I THINK IT'S TRUE, PEOPLE HAVE MANAGED WATER IN SOUTH FLORIDA FOR EVERYTHING BUT THE EVERGLADES. SO, THEY HAVE BEEN MANAGING IT FOR -- WHICH HAS BEEN FEDERALLY MANDATED. THAT HAS BEEN THE FEDERAL MANDATE. I'M NOT BLAMING ANYONE FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW, BUT I'M NOT SAYING ONE CAN WAKE UP ONE MORNING AND LOOK AT -- SEE THE EVERGLADES IN SOME STATE OF WATER STRESS AND THEN BE SURPRISED. Q. IF I'M HEARING YOU CORRECTLY, DR. RICHARDSON, IT SOUNDS AS THOUGH YOU INTEND FOR TRIAL -- AND I BELIEVE YOU DID SAY YESTERDAY THAT YOU ARE FORMING A. A LANDSCAPE VIEW OF THIS ENTIRE SYSTEM AND WILL TESTIFY AS TO THAT. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I MAY DO THAT. Q. AND YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD HAVE THIS READY IN A MONTH? DID YOU GIVE ME A TIME FRAME WHEN YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 365 THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE THIS FINAL OPINION READY? A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I DID. Q. WELL, WHEN DO YOU THINK YOUFRE GOING TO HAVE IT READY? A. I'M NOT SURE. IT DEPENDS UPON HOW MUCH INFORMATION AND HOW MUCH TIME I CAN SPEND ON THIS; BUT MAYBE NINE MONTHS, SIX MONTHS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I WOULD HAVE. Q. AND WHICH OF YOUR EXPERIMENTS WILL YOU BE RELYING UPON TO HELP FORM THIS VIEW THAT HAS HYDROLOGIC DATA IN IT? A. AS I THINK I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, A LARGE PORTION OF THIS DATA EXISTS IN THE DATABANKS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE GOVERNMENTS. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, JUST A COUPLE OF CLEANUP QUESTIONS ON WHAT WE HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT. WHAT WAS THE CRITERIA YOU USED IN INTERPRETING THE LANDSAT IMAGES TO IDENTIFY THESE AREAS WITH CATTAIL? WAS THERE A PERCENTAGE OF CATTAIL THAT IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE? A. I BELIEVE A PORTION OF THAT WAS RELATED TO THE LARSON REPORT. WE USED -- I DID NOT PERSONALLY DO THAT SURVEY. I WENT TO THOSE AREAS -- SOME OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 366 THOSE AREAS, I BELIEVE, ONCE OR TWICE. I WAS ACTUALLY -- LARSON MAY HAVE BEEN WITH ME. WE WERE IN THE SAME AREAS. I WAS SETTING UP TRANSECTS. SO, WE KNEW WE WERE DETERMINING THE SAME AREAS, BUT I DID NOT DO THE INTERPRETATION OF THE MAPPING. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND I DID NOT DO THE SURVEYS, OTHER THAN THE SURVEYS THAT I MENTIONED WE HAVE ONGOING, WHICH I HAVE NOT MAPPED. AND SO, I RELIED ON THE INFORMATION FROM LARSON. I ALSO RELIED ON SOME DATA FROM THE DISTRICT. AND I RELIED ON SOME INFORMATION FROM ERIM. I PERSONALLY DID NOT SIT AND DO A DATABASE COMPARISON. SO, THOSE NUMBERS I'M GIVING YOU ARE BALLPARK FIGURES. I'M REALLY CONFUSED, AND MAYBE IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WELL ENOUGH. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT MR. LARSON SAID THIS AREA IS FIFTY PERCENT (50%) CATTAIL, OKAY? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. I THINK HIS MAPS MAY INDICATE SOME--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- PERCENTAGES, I CAN'T REMEMBER. I KNOW HE LISTED--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 367 A. RIGHT. Q. --- VEGETATION TYPES. A. CORRECT. Q. WHEN WOULD YOU COUNT IT AS BEING INCLUDED IN THIS TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)? A. PROBABLY IF IT WAS FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE. Q. FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE. BUT YOU WOULD CONSIDER UP TO FIFTY PERCENT (50%) AN UNIMPACTED EVERGLADES AREA? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU MEAN BY UNIMPACTED. I MEAN, IT COULD BE -- I'M THINKING -- I'M TRYING TO THINK OF THE AREA SOUTH OF THE 2A, I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT AS AN IMPACTED AREA. I BELIEVE THE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE WAS DEFINED AS A MONOCULTURE -- MORE IN THE MONOCULTURE STATE. I THINK THAT WAS THE DEFINITIONS WE MAY HAVE USED AT THAT TIME. AND, THEN, THE BELOW THE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) WAS JUST AN AREA THAT HAD BEEN IMPACTED. SO, I THINK THAT TOTAL AREA WAS LIKE -- AND I'M ONLY GIVING YOU THE SPECIFICS OF THE NUMBERS THAT I CAN REMEMBER--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- IT MAY HAVE BEEN FIVE THOUSAND ACRES -- WELL, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 368 ABOVE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MAYBE MORE OF THAT MONOCULTURE AREA--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND THEN BELOW THAT NUMBER, THERE WAS ANOTHER RANGE MAYBE OF THE IMPACTED AREA -- AND I CAN'T REMEMBER, IT MAY HAVE BEEN AN ADDITIONAL -- I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS, LIKE, SEVENTEEN THOUSAND, FIFTEEN THOUSAND, SIXTEEN THOUSAND. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER. SO--- Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING YOU BELIEVE YOU INCLUDED BOTH OF THOSE? A. I BELIEVE BOTH OF THOSE WERE INCLUDED, YES. Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE POSITIVE BENEFITS TO THAT FIVE THOUSAND MONOCIJLTURE -- FIVE THOUSAND ACRES OF CATTAIL MONOCULTURE? A. WELL, I THINK -- I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE IT TO ALL BE NEGATIVE. I THINK SOMEHOW IF YOU PULL TOGETHER A NUMBER OF ECOLOGISTS AROUND THE COUNTRY, YOU WOULD NOT FIND IT -- I WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO THINK SOMEONE WOULD CONSIDER EVERY ASPECT OF CATTAIL. IT IS NOT THE MOST EVIL SPECIES; IT'S A VERY COMMON WETLAND PLANT. Q. WELL, SURE. SURE. A. SO, IT IS NOT -- WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 369 KNOW, THE MOST POISONOUS, TOXIC ORGANISM ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. IT IS -- IT IS A--- Q. IS THAT OUR STANDARD? IS THAT THE STANDARD WE WOULD USE IN MAINTAINING BIOTIC DIVERSITY AND -- WHAT ARE THE STANDARDS? YOU'VE EXPRESSED BIOTIC DIVERSITY IN ECOSYSTEM FUNCTIONING FOR THE EVERGLADES. WOULD THAT BE OUR STANDARD? A. WELL, THE CATTAILS ARE PERFORMING A FUNCTION. THEY'RE PERFORMING MANY OF THE SAME FUNCTIONS. THEY EXISTED IN THE EVERGLADES. THERE'S SOME HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FROM MY FORMER PROFESSOR, JOHN HENRY DAVIS, WHEN HE DID HIS EARLY MAPS, THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME AREAS -- LARGE AREAS. THERE WAS ONE AREA THAT'S -- I DON'T KNOW -- T@EN, FIFTEEN THOUSAND ACRES THAT MAY -- MAY HAVE BEEN -- IN FACT, IT'S LISTED AS A CATTAIL FERN AREA. THESE AREAS COULD EXIST. I'M NOT SURE WHY THAT ONE EXISTED. IT WASN'T RELATED TO AGRICULTURE, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL. IT MAY HAVE BEEN DUE TO A NUMBER OF REASONS, BUT THIS IS NOT -- IF YOU WENT BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, IT MAY VERY WELL BE THAT CATTAILS WERE ONE OF THE DOMINATE SPECIES IN SOME OF THE AREAS. I DON'T KNOW. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IS THE ISSUE, AS YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 370 SEE IT, ONE OF HOW MUCH CATTAIL MONOCULTURE OR HEAVILY CATTAIL MIX EVERGLADES THE STATE OF FLORIDA WISHES TO MAINTAIN AND HOW MUCH OLIOGOTROPHIC FAIRLY NON-CATTAIL EVERGLADES THE STATE OF FLORIDA WISHES TO MAINTAIN? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT'S A QUESTION, BUT I OBJECT TO IT. A. DO I SEE THAT AS THE ISSUE? Q. YES, SIR. A. IT COULD BE THE ISSUE FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA. I MEAN, IT'S A POSSIBILITY FOR SURE. Q. DO YOU EVER THINK OF IT IN THOSE TERMS? I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT THIS BIG EXPANSE OF -- QUOTE -- "EVERGLADES" OUT THERE, AND--- A. WELL, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL -- WHEN MY ORIGINAL MEETINGS WERE, WAS THE FACT THAT IT WAS THE PUBLIC'S PERCEPTION AND MANY INDIVIDUAL'S PERCEPTIONS THAT THE EVERGLADES WAS TURNING INTO A GIANT CATTAIL MARSH, AND THERE WAS GREAT CONCERN. AND IF IT WAS TURNING INTO A GIANT CATTAIL MARSH, I THINK THERE WOULD BE: SOME REALM FOR CONCERN. Q. BUT IF IT HAS POSITIVE BENEFITS, WHY IS THERE A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 371 REALM FOR CONCERN? A. WELL, THERE -- I'M SURE -- I THINK IN TERMS OF MAGNITUDE -- AGAIN, THIS IS VALUE JUDGMENTS -- BUT I'M SURE, MYSELF INCLUDED, YOU'D LIKE TO MAINTAIN SOME OF THE NATIVE SPECIES THAT EXIST IN THE EVERGLADES, AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY REASONABLE GOAL FOR ESPECIALLY PARK AND PRESERVES, AND SO ONE WOULD DO SO--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND THE QUESTION RELATES TO MAGNITUDE. SO, AS I WAS TELLING YOU EARLIERF WE TOOK A LOOK AT, AND I TRIED TO GET AN ESTIMATE. AND, BASICALLY, I THINK WE'RE SPENDING A LOT OF TIME ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE, WHICH IS FINE, BUT I THINK THE CATTAIL ISSUE IS A MINOR PROBLEM IN THE EVERGLADES. I DON'T THINK IT -- YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED, OR YOU WILL NOTICE, I GUESS,, IF YOU GO THROUGH SOME OF MY DOCUMENTS, THAT WAS AN EARLY FOCUS. BUT IT'S PROBABLY -- YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S BEEN WAY OVERBLOWN. I THINK IT'S NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM; IT IS A LOCALIZED PROBLEM. AND THE PROBLEM MAY BE THAT IF IT'S THE CATTAILS ARE ONLY IN YOUR -- IF YOU ONLY HAVE FIVE SQUARE FEET, AND THE CATTAILS ARE IN YOUR FIVE SQUARE FEET, AND YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 372 DON'T WANT THEM THERE, THAT MAY BE A PROBLEM. BUT IN THE MAGNITUDE OF THE WHOLE EVERGLADES ISSUE, I THINK IT'S A VERY MINOR PROBLEM. Q. OKAY. WHAT MAGNITUDE OF CHANGE WOULD YOU BELIEVE MOVED OUT OF THIS MINOR PROBLEM CATE(;ORY? A. WELL, I THINK WHEN YOU DIVERT HALF THE WATER SUPPLY FOR SOUTH FLORIDA, YOU'VE MOVED INTO A MAJOR CATEGORY. WHEN YOU PUMP HALF THE WATER TO THE OCEAN AND HALF TO THE GULF OF MEXICO CONTINUALLY SINCE THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, AND PUT IN FIFTEEN HUNDRED MILES OF CANALS, IF YOUR GOAL IS TO MAINTAIN ANY RESEMBLANCE OF THE EVERGLADES, YOU HAVE CREATED A CATASTROPHIC CHANGE TO THE SYSTEM. Q. BUT WHAT MAGNITUDE OF CHANGE IN THE EVERGLADES WOULD MOVE BEYOND THIS MINOR CONCERN THAT YOU SEE AS THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT PROBLEM? LET ME MAKE --- LET ME GET SOMETHING CLEAR---- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT--- Q. --- DR. RICHARDSON, LET ME MOVE -- I'LL COME BACK TO THAT QUESTION. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DO YOU SEE THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT PROBLEM TO THE EVERGLADES AS THE SAME THING AS THE CATTAIL PROBLEM? ARE THEY THE SAME? ARE YOU DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 373 THOSE TWO? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. I DON'T THINK THEY GO TOTALLY HAND IN HAND. I THINK THERE'S A DELAY FACTOR. I THINK THERE -- IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, AS I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, TO SEPARATE WATER FROM PHOSPHORUS. AND SO, THEREFORE -- AND HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE RESEARCH WILL POINT THIS OUT. I AM NOT SURE IF YOU STRICTLY ADD -- WELL, LET'S DO IT IN REVERSE. IF YOU STOP THE FLOW OF -- IF YOU JUST PUT WATER INTO, LET'S SAY, WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, AND TOOK OUT, LET'S SAY, MOST OF THE PHOSPHORUS, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THAT PARTICULAR SYSTI;,M? I THINK IT WOULD STAY PRETTY MUCH AS IT IS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. IF YOU KEPT THE WATER REGIME WITHIN WITHIN THE BOUNDS AS IT IS NOW. SO, I THINK IF YOU ADDED NUTRIE14TS AND KEPT IT WITHIN SOME STABLE COMPONENT WHERE IT IS, IT WOULD STAY; IT MAY CHANGE SLIGHTLY. SO, WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IN THAT PARTICULAR COMPONENT, IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE OUT THAT ONCE YOU -- ONCE THE SYSTE M IS IN THAT PARTICULAR STATE. AND, SO, THESE DYNAMICS -- THERE'S A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 374 CONFUSION AS TO WHAT HAPPENS IN A SYSTEM, AND WHAT YOU SEE IS THERE TODAY IS THE RESULT OF WHO GOT THERE FIRST AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS. AND HOW YOU ALTER THAT -- THOSE CONDITIONS -- CAN AFFECT WHAT GOES. BUT WHAT REALLY IS IMPORTANT IS WHO GOT THERE FIRST. Q. BUT YOU'RE TELLING ME IT'S REALLY PRETTY HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHO GOT THERE FIRST? A. WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON WHEN YOU--- Q. DIDN'T YOU TELL ME YESTERDAY YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IF WE CAN SEPARATE OUT THE HYDROLOGY FROM THE NUTRIENTS? A. I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIES; WHICH SPECIES GOT THERE FIRST. Q. OH, OH, WHICH SPECIES GOT THERE FIRST. OKAY. DO YOU SEE THE VALUE OF THOSE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE AREAS FOR HABITAT AS OF EQUAL VALUE AS THE, LET'S SAY, THE AREAS AT THE BOTTOM OF, PERHAPS, 2A OR INTO 3A, EQUAL HABITAT VALUE? A. THEY ARE PROBABLY OF EQUAL HABITAT VALUE TO THE SAWGRASS. Q. WHERE THE SAWGRASS HAS BEEN CROWDED OUT IN THE NORTHERN END, IT'S OF EQUAL HABITAT VALUE? A. I DON'T THINK THAT WAS YOUR QUESTION TO ME. I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 375 THOUGHT YOU SAID DID I SEE THE HABITAT VALUE OF THE CATTAILS IN THE NORTH AS EQUAL TO THE HABITAT VALUES IN THE SOUTH. Q. RIGHT. SO, YOU'RE SAYING -- OH, AS FAR AS -- AS FAR AS BIRDS AND FISH AND OTHER CREATURES, YOU'RE SAYING THAT A CATTAIL MONOCULTURE IS OF EQUAL HABITAT VALUE--- A. WELL--- Q. --- AS SAWGRASS MONOCULTURE? A. --- I HAVEN'T ANALYZED THE CATTAIL COMPLETELY IN THAT. I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE TO TALK TO DR. RADER IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE INVERTEBRATE AND FISH COMPONENTS TO GET HIS EXPERT OPINION ON THAT. I'M SIMPLY TELLING YOU THAT, IN FACT, FROM MY EXPERIENCE DOWN THERE LOOKING AT CATTAIL AND LOOKING AT SAWGRASS, SAWGRASS IS NO PLEASANT SPECIES TO WORK WITH, OR TRY TO FORAGE ON, OR TRY TO SURVIVE WITH. AND, SO, I SEE -- NOR AM I SUGGESTING THAT I WANT THE ENTIRE EVERGLADES TO BE CATTAIL, BY ANY MEANS. BUT I'M SIMPLY SAYING THAT I DON'T THINK ONE CAN EQUATE CATTAIL AS BEING ALL BAD, AND SAWGRASS BEING ALL GOOD. Q. HAS ANYONE DONE THAT? A. NO. BUT I'M SAYING THAT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 376 Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. OKAY, DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WAY CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS -- OR ARE YOU AWARE OF OTHER SCIENTISTS HAVING FOUND A DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY THEY APPEAR TO SUCCEED IN RELATION TO THE OPEN WATER AREAS? DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION? A. THERE ARE SEVERAL COMPONENTS, YES, RELATED TO THAT. BUT, I MEAN, IT'S VERY COMPLEX. YOU CAN BE TALKING ABOUT WATER DEPTH--- Q. NO, I'M TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE CATTAILS ACTUALLY INVADING--- A. CORRECT--- Q. --- OR MOVING--- A. --- BUT THAT RELATES--- Q. --- INTO THE OPEN WATER SOUGHS. A. THAT RELATES TO THE DEPTH OF WATER. Q. RIGHT. A. THAT RELATES TO WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THERE ARE SPECIES ALREADY PRESENT. AND ITFS NEVER JUST A ONE-WAY STREET. CATTAILS MAY INVADE A PARTICULAR AREA, AND THEN THERE MAY BE A DROUGHT, OR THERE MAY BE A FIRE, OR THERE MAY BE A FREEZE, AND THEY MAY--- Q. RECEDE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 377 A. ---RECEDE, AND THEN THEY MAY COME BACK, AND SO FORTH. THEYFRE A VERY AGGRESSIVE SPECIES. THEY'RE AN OPPORTUNIST SPECIES. THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT SORT OF ECOLOGICAL--- Q. HOW IS THAT RELATIONSHIP OF THE CATTAIL TO THE DEPTH OF THE WATER; WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP? A. WELL, CATTAIL SURVIVE BETTER IN DEEPER WATER, FOR EXAMPLE, THAN SAWGRASS. SAWGRASS HAS DIFFICULTY SURVIVING IN DEEPER WATER. Q. WILL THE CATTAIL SURVIVE IN DEEPER WATER IF THERE ARE VERY, VERY LIMITED NUTRIENTS? A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT KIND OF VERY, VERY LIMITED NUTRIENTS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. THEY DO SURVIVE IN SOME AREAS WITH LOW NUTRIENTS. THEYFRE NOT AS PRODUCTIVE AS SOME OF THE OTHER SPECIES THAT CAN COME INTO THOSE AREAS. BUT, PRIMARILY, IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW THEY BECOME ESTABLISHED. Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, WHERE HAVE YOU FOUND CATTAILS AND VERY LOW NUTRIENTS IN THE EVERGLADES? AND I WANT TO GET THE NUMBERS OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER LOW NUTRIENTS, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY--- A. SURE. Q. --- AN ISSUE OF DEBATE BETWEEN US. BUT JUST WHAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER VERY LOW NUMBERS, AND WHERE YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 378 WOULD FIND CATTAIL, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT AREAS YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY EXIST IN THE EVERGLADES. A. WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2B. Q. OKAY. A. THAT'S THE--- Q. ALONG THE NORTHERN PORTION? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. AND IN WHAT MIX ARE THEY IN THE AREA THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO? THIS IS ON THE WESTERN, THE EASTERN, THE MIDDLE, WHERE? A. ABOUT IN THE MIDDLE. Q. THE MIDDLE. OKAY. AND WHAT MIX DO YOU BELIEVE IS CATTAIL, IS IT FIFTY, SIXTY? A. NO, IT'S A SMALL PERCENTAGE. I'M NOT SURE. WE ARE CURRENTLY ANALYZING SOME OF THAT DATA, AND IT MAY BE -- I'M JUST GUESSING -- I DON'T KNOW -- FIVE PERCENT, TEN PERCENT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE THE NUTRIENT LEVELS IN, LET'S SAY, SURFACE WATER? A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS, WHAT THEY ARE. GENERALLY IN THAT AREA WHEN WE HAVE DONE THEM, THE WATER CONCENTRATIONS FOR -- ARE YOU SAYING NUTRIENTS OR JUST--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 379 Q. JUST PHOSPHORUS. A. PHOSPHORUS. Q. YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR ME. I MEAN, THIS IS YOUR AREA. A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT WOULD BE FIFTEEN, TWENTY -- MAYBE A LITTLE -- LESS PARTS PER BILLION. Q. OKAY. FIFTEEN TO TWENTY PARTS PER BILLION SURFACE WATER. AND THE PORE WATER, DO YOU HAVE ANY NUMBERS FOR THE PORE WATER? A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK. I WOULD HAVE TO -- I DON'T -- I DON'T HAVE THAT AT MY FINGERTIPS. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE DATA THAT WILL SUPPORT THIS? A. YES, I DO. Q. OKAY. HOW MUCH? A. SEVERAL YEARS WORTH OF DATA. Q. OKAY. ARE THERE ANY OTHER AREAS IN THE EVERGLADES, THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF, WHERE YOU WOULD SAY THAT THERE ARE LOW NUTRIENTS AND CATTAILS? YOU'RE SAYING FIVE TO TEN PERCENT? A. I HAVEN'T DONE -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, ACTUALLY I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE KIND OF AN INTERESTING FIRST LOOK TO BASICALLY DO THAT, AND TO LOOK AT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 380 CATTAILS AND LOOK AT THE NUTRIENTS AND TRY TO DO THAT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. BUT WHEN I MADE MY PRESENTATION -- MY FIRST PRESENTATION TO THE EPD, TOM MacVICAR -- I THINK THIS IS ON PUBLIC RECORD -- JUMPED ALL OVER ME AND THIS PROPOSAL, BY SAYING THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DID NOT CONSIDER THE CATTAIL ISSUE A MAJOR ISSUE ANY MORE, AND THAT THIS WAS -- THIS PROJECT WAS WEIGHED WAY TOO HEAVILY TO LOOK AT CATTAILS, AND THAT THERE WERE OTHER ISSUES ON THE TABLE. AND, AS YOU KNOW, HE SITS -- HE SAT, AT THAT TIME, AS AN ADVISOR -- YOU MAY NOT KNOW -- AS ADVISOR TO THAT EPD. AND ALSO AT THAT TIME SUGGESTED THAT WE NOT DO ANY WORK WHATSOEVER IN THE HOLEYLAND. AND, SO, OUR ORIGINAL PROPOSAL WAS ACTUALLY SHIFTED BY THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT TO NOT DO THAT. SO, WE -- AND SINCE I HAD SOME IDEA THAT CATTAIL -- AND I HAD BEEN LOOKING AT SOME OF THAT -- WAS NOT THE MAJOR ONE -- AND I MET WITH WOODY AND TOM AND TALKED ABOUT THIS, I GUESS, IN VERY GENERAL TERMS -- BUT THAT MEETING SET THE TONE FOR REALLY REDUCING SORT OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 381 A SURVEY, IN A SENSE, OF THOSE ISSUES. SO, I STOPPED IT. Q. IT SEEMS THE VILLAIN IS SHIFTING AROUND THE TABLE HERE. MR. BURGESS: NO, THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN ON YOUR SIDE. MS. PONZOLI: SO YOU SAY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS WHEN YOU SAID FIFTEEN TO TWENTY PPB. ARE YOU TALKING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS FOR THIS AREA IN 2B, DR. RICHARDSON? A. IN SURFACE WATERS? Q. YES, SIR. A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS. I DON'T KNOW -- I'M DOING THIS -- YOU HAVE OUR DATA ON THIS; IT'S IN THE FILE SOMEWHERE. I--- Q. I THOUGHT THAT WAS ORTHOPHOSPHATE? A. IT COULD VERY WELL BE. I JUST DON'T I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. WOULDN'T THAT MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, WHICH TYPE OF PHOSPHORUS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. NOT IN TERMS OF AVAILABILITY TO PLANTS. THE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IS KIND OF A WORTHLESS NUMBER. Q. IS THAT WHY EVERYONE'S USING IT AND TALKING IN THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 382 SWIM PLAN AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, I MEAN--- A. IN MY OPINION, THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE LAWYERS RUNNING THIS AND NON-SCIENTISTS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND--- Q. I SEE. A. --- HOW PLANTS AND--- Q. I SEE. A. --- ANIMALS FUNCTION; AND USING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS AS A NUMBER FOR A STANDARD MAKES NO SENSE. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU THINK THAT LAWYERS ARE RUNNING ALL THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT SCIENCE, AND THAT--- A. WELL, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, AT LEAST. Q. OH, WE'RE RUNNING THE SCIENTISTS AT THE WATER MANAGEMENT? IS THAT YOUR ACTUAL BELIEF, DR. RICHARDSON? A. NO, I'M JUST BEING FACTITIOUS, BUT I DO THINK THERE'S A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS ARE CRITICAL TO PLANT GROWTH; THERE SEEMS TO BE. BUT IT'S TYPICAL OF VERY MUCH -- VERY MUCH STATE AND FEDERAL AGENCIES OF SETTING SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN MEASURE SIMPLY. IT'S JUST A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO MEASURE. IF YOU TAKE AN AIRBOAT OUT TO THE EVERGLADES AND TRY TO MEASURE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, YOU CANNOT -- AND YOU STOP THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 383 AIRBOAT, AND SAY, THE WATER'S A FOOT DEEP, I CAN GET YOU ANY TOTAL PHOSPHORUS NUMBER YOU WANT PROBABLY WITHIN A RANGE OF -- DEPENDING UPON THE AREA, YOU KNOW, THREE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE ALMOST; DEPENDING ON HOW YOU DO IT. AND SO I THINK THAT THE UNFORTUNATE CASE IS YOU CAN -- YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY WITH TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SO YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN YOU ANALYZE YOUR SAMPLES, AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT YOU STORE YOUR SAMPLES. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH IT--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND AGENCIES ARE NOTORIOUS FOR HAVING MANY PEOPLE COLLECT THEM UNDER VARIOUS CONDITIONS, AND NUMBERS TURN OUT TO BE NOT SO GOOD. Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT WATER QUALITY DATA IS, IN GENERAL, NOT SO GOOD? A. I WOULD SAY THAT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH THEY HAD TO COLLECT IT AND ON THE BASIS OF WHICH THEY DID, IT'S -- IT'S OKAY. IT'S NOT SCIENTIFICALLY OF HIGH QUALITY, IN MY OPINION. IT'S OKAY. Q. CAN YOU MAKE MANAGEMENT DECISIONS BASED ON IT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 384 A. SOME. Q. VERY LIMITED? A. NO. BUT I THINK IT RELATES BACK TO THE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS/ORTHOPHOSPHORUS QUESTION, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING TO USE--- Q. YEAH. WELL--- A. --- IT GIVES YOU A BALLPARK FIGURE. Q. --- WELL, FOR WHATEVER COMFORT IT IS TO YOU, I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED TO ANY SCIENTIST WHAT FORM OF PHOSPHORUS TO MEASURE ANYTHING IN. THEY HAD TO TEACH ME WHAT THE DIFFERENT FORMS WERE, TO WHATEVER EXTENT THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL. AND I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE LAWYERS AT THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, BUT I HAVEN'T FOUND THEM MUCH MORE CONVERSANT IN PHOSPHORUS FORMS THAN I AM--- A. OH, I'M NOT SURE THAT THEY PERMEATED THAT--- Q. --- SO --- A. --- I JUST THINK TOTAL PHOSPHORUS HAS BEEN ON THE BOOKS FOR MANY STATES FOR MANY AREAS FOR A LONG TIME, AND IT'S JUST SOMETHING PEOPLE NORMALLY DO. Q. ALL RIGHT. THIS PHOSPHORUS NUMBER THAT YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT'S TOTAL PHOSPHORUS OR ORTHO, THAT YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 38S SAY WE HAVE THE DATA FOR, IS IT AT YOUR FERTILIZER SITES IN--- A. IT'S IN AND AROUND THE FERTILIZER SITES, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. IN AND AROUND. INSIDE THE PLOTS? A. AND OUTSIDE THE PLOTS. Q. OKAY. AT THE MIXED SITE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. WELL, OTHER SITES, TOO, WE HAVE IT FROM ALL THREE SITES. Q. YEAH, BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT WAS THE SITE WHERE YOU COULD SHOW LOW NUTRIENTS AND CATTAILS? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I THINK IT -- WELL, LET ME JUST CLEAN UP A COUPLE OF POINTS HERE. DID YOU DO THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) ESTIMATE; ARE YOU THE ONE WHO DID THAT? A. I MAY HAVE DONE THE -- I MAY HAVE DONE THE CALCULATION, GIVEN THE TOTAL ACREAGE, AND FIGURED OUT WHAT WAS THE DENOMINATOR FOR THE TOTAL AREA I CAN'T REMEMBER -- BUT I THINK OTHER PEOPLE HAVE IT'S NOT A DONE THAT. IT'S NOT A NUMBER THAT NUMBER THAT I CAREFULLY SAT DOWN, AND VERY CAREFULLY CALCULATED EVERY SECTION OF IT. AS I SAID, I HAVE WORKED WITH A NUMBER OF PEOPLE; DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 386 AND THROUGH A NUMBER OF MEETINGS AND A NUMBER OF MAPS AND DIFFERENT THINGS, I CAME UP WITH THAT FIGURE. Q. OKAY. WHO WERE THE PEOPLE AT THIS MEETINGS? WHO ELSE HELPED YOU COME UP WITH THIS--- A. OH, JUST FOR THIS NUMBER? Q. YES, SIR. A. THERE WAS NOT A PARTICULAR MEETING SET UP TO COME UP WITH THAT NUMBER. IT WAS SORT OF, AGAIN, SERENDIPITY. I'D GO TO A MEETING AND SOMEONE WOULD SAY, HERE'S A MAP THAT SHOWS THIS AREA, AND I WOULD WRITE DOWN A NUMBER ROUGHLY, AND THEY WOULD SAY IT COVERS "X" NUMBER OF ACRES. SO, I JUST COMPOSITED THESE PIECES OF INFORMATION. AND THEN THE ERIM INFORMATION--- Q. WHO DID THE INTERPRETATION OF THE ERIM, THOUGH; DID YOU? A. THE ACTUAL INTERPRETATION WAS DONE BY ERIM. Q. OKAY. AND -- BUT WHO IS THE PERSON? THERE'S A BODY WHO INTERPRETS A SATELLITE IMAGE. A. IT'S A YOUNG LADY, BUT I DON'T KNOW HER NAME--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I REALLY DON'T. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT FORM OF PHOSPHORUS IS USED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 387 IN TEXTBOOKS TO DEFINE TROPHIC STATUS? A. WELL, I SUPPOSE IT DEPENDS ON THE AREA. IN SOME PLACES, THEY USE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SOME USE ORTHOPHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IS ORTHOPHOSPHORUS USUALLY IN THE EVERGLADES -- ORTHOPHOSPHATE? I'M SORRY. A. IT DEPENDS ON SEASON, TIME, AREA. I THINK OUR STUDIES -- I THINK DR. QUALLS HAD SOME DATA WE PUT IN A REPORT. I THINK IT RAN FROM FIFTY TO SEVENTY PERCENT (50% TO 70%), SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE, DEPENDING ON WHETHER THE GATES ARE OPENED AND CLOSED, WHERE THE AREA WAS, SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE. MS. PONZOLI: I THINK WE'RE AT THE TIME WE SAID WE WOULD STOP FOR LUNCH, SO I'D LIKE TO STOP NOW. MR. BURGESS: NO, WE'RE PAST THAT. MS. PONZOLI: YEAH. WELL, WE'RE PAST THAT. MR. BURGESS: WHAT TIME DO YOU WANT TO BE BACK -- TWO? MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, TWO SOUNDS FINE. (THEREUPON, A LUNCH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 388 BREAK WAS TAKEN.) MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU READY? WITNESS: I'M READY. EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. OKAY, DR. RICHARDSON, RETURNING TO THE ISSUE OF YOUR COMPENSATION, BOTH BY THE EPD AND DUKE UNIVERSITY, WE HAD FOR -- THE BUDGET FOR 1993, WHICH IS REPRESENTATIVE OF YOUR PRIOR BUDGETS, I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED, DIDN'T YOU? IT'S SIMILAR, IT MAY BE A FIVE PERCENT (5%) INCREASE? A. IT INCREASED. THERE'S A--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I THINK THERE'S A COST IN THE -- AN INCREASE. THE ALLOCATION PATTERNS MAY DIFFER FROM YEAR TO YEAR. Q. ALL RIGHT. THERE REMAINS A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION AS TO WHAT I CAN ASK YOU, BUT I'VE BEEN ADVISED BY YOUR COUNSEL I CAN ASK YOU ONE QUESTION, AND THEN YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO ANSWER THE SECOND QUESTION. BUT LET'S DO THE FIRST QUESTION THAT YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO ANSWER IF I DO IT RIGHT. THE FORTY-SEVEN THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($47,979.00) THAT SET AS YOUR SALARY AND WAGE, WOULD BE WHAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 389 PERCENTAGE OF YOUR TWELVE MONTHS' SALARY FROM DUKE UNIVERSITY? A. AS I SAID, IT'S DIFFICULT AT THIS TIME TO PROJECT WHAT IT WOULD BE, BUT I CAN GIVE YOU A RANGE OF WHAT IT WOULD BE, OKAY, OF WHAT PERCENTAGE IT WOULD BE OF MY SALARY. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND IN THIS PARTICULAR YEAR, AS I SAID, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WOULD BE. MAYBE -- IT WOULD BE, BY UNIVERSITY POLICY, NO MORE THAN ONE-THIRD, AND IT COULD RANGE FROM FIFTEEN -- I WOULD SAY FIFTEEN TO THIRTY PERCENT WOULD BE A RANGE. HAVE YOU HAD -- AND I DON'T HAVE EXACTLY THE BUDGETS FOR EACH OF THE OTHER YEARS. WE CAN COME TO THEM AMONG THE DOCUMENTS. BUT THE FORTY-SEVEN THOUSAND, IS THAT ROUGHLY THE SALARY THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD OF TIME, 1989, 190, '91, '92, FROM THE EPD? A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT AMOUNT. Q. WAS IT SOMETHING IN THE FORTY THOUSAND RANGE? A. WELL, IT'S NO MORE THAN; IT MAY BE LESS THAN THAT. BUT, AGAIN, IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT I DON'T -- AS I'VE TRIED TO EXPLAIN VERY CLEARLY, AND RALPH MAY HAVE MENTIONED THIS TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 390 YOU -- YOU GET A BASE SALARY, THE SALARY COMES, AND YOU'RE NOT SURE OF THE ALLOCATION FROM TIME TO TIME. Q. WELL, I THINK THAT IS THE SECOND QUESTION. WHAT IS YOUR BASE SALARY--- MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECT. Q. ---FOR -- WELL, I GUESS THE ONE THAT YOU -- DO YOU KNOW YOUR BASE SALARY FOR 1993? A. NO. Q. OKAY. YOU KNOW YOUR BASE SALARY FOR '92? A. YES, I KNOW. Q. OKAY. MS. PONZOLI: MR. McCAUGHAN. MR. McCAUGHAN: COUNSEL, I OBJECT ON THE GROUNDS THAT ITFS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF DISCOVERY HERE, AND NOT RELEVANT. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I'M GOING TO CERTIFY THE QUESTION AND PURSUE HIS BASE SALARY, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A FAIR UNDERSTANDING OF HIS COMPENSATION WITHOUT IT, COUNSEL, BUT I APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORTS TO TRY AND ACCOMMODATE OUR NEED FOR DISCOVERY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, JUST TO SEE IF I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 391 CAN HELP MYSELF JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE, DO YOU REMEMBER IN 189 WHAT PERCENTAGE YOUR SALARY WOULD HAVE BEEN OF YOUR TOTAL COMPENSATION FOR THE YEAR FROM DUKE? A. I'M SORRY, WOULD I REMEMBER? Q. THIS PERCENTAGE, THIS RATIO, THIS FIFTEEN TO THIRTY PERCENT (15% TO 30%), IT'S A FAIRLY LARGE RANGE. A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK. I DON'T KNOW THE UNIVERSITY -- I DON'T KNOW. IT WOULD -- I'M TRYING TO GIVE YOU -- IT VARIES BY SEMESTER. IT COULD VARY BY SUMMER, IT COULD VARY BY MONTH. I MEAN, I KNOW, FOR AN EXAMPLE, ONE YEAR, I THINK I HAD FOUR -- FOUR DIFFERENT GROUPS PAYING SOME OF MY SALARY IN THE SUMMERTIME, AND SO I MIGHT GET TWO WEEKS HERE, AND A WEEK THERE. SURE. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, LET ME ASK YOU THIS. DOES THE EPD GRANT REPRESENT THE LARGEST GRANT THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY AT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. COULD YOU RESTATE THAT? IT'S UNCLEAR TO ME WHAT YOU'RE ASKING. MS. PONZOLI: I'M ASKING IS THAT THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 392 LARGEST GRANT, IN TERMS OF MONEY, THAT'S GIVEN TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. MR. McCAUGHAN: THE TOTAL? MS. PONZOLI: TOTAL AMOUNTS OF MONEY--- MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY. MS. PONZOLI: --- RIGHT. MR. McCAUGHAN: THANKS. A. AT THE PRESENT TIME, I THINK IT WOULD BE. OVER THE TOTAL, I HAVE RAISED AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF MONEY, PROBABLY -- I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT IT; I DON'T REALLY KEEP TRACK OF IT -- BUT WE'VE HAD FAIRLY LARGE GRANTS FROM THE USDA AND OTHER AGENCIES, THAT RUN INTO THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. Q. SURE. SURE. OKAY. I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH THOSE, I GUESS, WHEN I DO YOUR CV, OR I HAVE ANOTHER GRANT PROPOSAL, I'D LIKE TO GO THROUGH IT. WAS THAT TRUE ALSO IN '92, 191, AND 190, AND '89, THAT THE EPD GRANT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LARGEST IN A. TERMS OF ACTUAL DOLLARS TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? A. NO. Q. OKAY. WHICH YEAR WAS IT THE LARGEST? WHICH OF THOSE YEARS WOULD IT HAVE BEEN THE LARGEST SINGLE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 393 GRANT? A. IT'S HARD TO SAY, AS I DON'T -- I DON'T HAVE THAT ALLOCATION. IT WOULD DEPEND ON -- WE -- FOR EXAMPLE, I AM CO-DIRECTOR OF TOXICOLOGY, AND WE HAVE A MILLION AND A HALF DOLLARS FROM NIH FOR--- Q. BUT, I MEAN, THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. A. I KNOW, BUT I'M CO-DIRECTOR OF THAT, SO I HELP WRITE PORTIONS OF THAT. I HAD A THREE-QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLAR GRANT, I BELIEVE, FROM THE USDA. WE HAVE SOME FOUNDATION GRANTS. SO, I DON'T HAVE THAT ALLOCATION SET UP. DO THESE GRANTS THAT YOU'RE MENTIONING, DO THEY COME INTO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? THESE ARE GRANTS TO THE DUKE WET--- A. FOR THE MOST PART, YES. YES, TO ME AND TO THE WETLAND CENTER AS THE DIRECTOR. Q. NO, NOT TO YOU, TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, THAT'S THE ONE I'M TALKING ABOUT--- A. BUT I--- Q. --- NOT TO YOU PERSONALLY. A. ---BUT I -- BASICALLY AS DIRECTOR OF THE WETLAND, THEY WOULD COME TO THE WETLAND CENTER. Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING -- YOU'RE KIND OF -- YOU'RE HEDGING, AND MAYBE YOU DON'T MEAN TO HEDGE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 394 A. NO, I DON'T. Q. ---MAYBE YOU DON'T MEAN TO, IT'S JUST COMING OUT THAT WAY, AND SO IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME WHAT THE ANSWER IS. SO, IF YOU CAN TAKE THE BASICALLYS AWAY, AND JUST TELL ME, YES, THIS WAS THE LARGEST GRANT I HAD IN 192; NO, IT WASNFT. THAT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S A REAL STRAIGHTFORWARD ANSWER. A. IN 192, I THINK THE ANSWER WOULD BE, YES. Q. OKAY. IN '91? A. I -- AFTER YOU GO BACK FROM 192, I'M NOT SURE, BECAUSE I/D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AND SEE WHEN CERTAIN GRANTS ENDED AND WHEN CERTAIN ONES STARTED. IT MAY BE IN 191. Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IN 190? A. I DON'T KNOW IN 190. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK. Q. AND '89? A. PROBABLY NOT. Q. AND IN '88--- A. NO. Q. --- THE FIRST YEAR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE CAME IN? A. NO. Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS YOUR LARGEST GRANT IN '88? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 395 A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK. I DON'T--- Q. YOU DON'T KNOW, BUT YOU KNOW SOMETHING WAS LARGER THAN THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. WELL, I HAD A VERY LARGE PROGRAM. IN f88, I WAS DOING FAIRLY LARGE STUDIES ON WETLANDS IN NORTH CAROLINA. I HAD A VERY LARGE ACID RAIN -- WHEN WE GO THROUGH THE CV, A VERY LARGE -- I WAS DIRECTOR OF THE ACID RAIN OZONE PROGP-M--- MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECTION. COULD WE GO OFF THE RECORD? MS. PONZOLI: SURE. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S GO BACK ON THE RECORD. ACTUALLY, THAT WOULD BE BETTER ON THE RECORD. WOULD YOU LIKE TO PUT IT ON THE RECORD, MR. McCAUGHAN? McCAUGHAN: YES. I OBJECT TO THE QUESTION ON THE BASIS THAT IT MAY LEAD TO THE REVELATION -- INADVERTENT REVELATION OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT'S PROTECTED BY CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS BETWEEN DUKE AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 396 CERTAIN PRIVATE SPONSORS OF RESEARCH. AND, THEREFORE, I WILL INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND OR ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT MAY REVEAL THE NAMES OF THOSE PARTIES OR THE AMOUNTS OF THOSE GRANTS. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK WE'LL HAVE TO TAKE IT QUESTION BY QUESTION, COUNSELOR--- MR. McCAUGHAN: FINE. MS. PONZOLI: --- BECAUSE I -- I THINK WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS YOU'RE SORT OF LEAVING TO A NON-LEGAL WITNESS THE DECISION REGARDING WHICH ANSWERS TO GIVE AND NOT. BUT JUST SO DR. RICHARDSON AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR INSTRUCTIONS, YOU'RE SAYING HE CAN ANSWER QUESTIONS REGARDING PUBLIC GRANTS? IS THAT ACCURATE--- MR. McCAUGHAN: GRANTS--- MS. PONZOLI: --- BUT NOT PRIVATE ONES? MR. McCAUGHAN: --- GRANTS THAT ARE FUNDED BY PUBLIC AGENCIES, WHETHER IT'S STATE OR FEDERAL--- MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: --- OR OTHER. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I UNDERSTOOD -- I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 397 DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT MUCH OF A PROBLEM--- MR. McCAUGHAN: NO, I DON'T EITHER. MS. PONZOLI: --- BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND MOST OF HIS GRANTS TO BE PUBLIC GRANTS--- MR. McCAUGHAN: ABSOLUTELY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE THEY NOT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. THERE ARE SOME PRIVATE FOUNDATION GRANTS. I'VE HAD SOME--- Q. BUT THE BULK OF YOUR GRANTS ARE PUBLIC, ARE THEY NOT? A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE YEAR. SOME OF THOSE, I THINK, I HAD SOME FAIRLY LARGE PRIVATE FOUNDATION GRANTS. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T JUDGE AGAINST WHAT YOU CAN'T TELL US, SO I THINK WE'LL JUST HAVE TO WORK THIS ONE THROUGH, I GUESS. THEN I WOULD CERTIFY MY RIGHT TO FIND OUT THOSE PRIVATE FOUNDATION GRANTS. I DON'T KNOW, I THINK IT'S -- YOU PUT CONSTRAINTS ON THE QUESTION, OR THEY'RE HARD TO FOLLOW. I DON'T BELIEVE IFVE BEEN ALLOWED THE DISCOVERY THAT I NEED ON THIS POINT, AND I WILL CERTIFY THOSE QUESTIONS, AND WILL PURSUE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 398 THEM, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THEY GO TO DISCOVERY THAT'S APPROPRIATELY OURS. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'D LIKE TO BEGIN TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ON SOME DOCUMENTS ABOUT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, AND YOUR INITIAL WORK ON BEHALF OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND THE EPD, AND I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AT, FIRST, THE EXPERT WITNESS DOCUMENT THAT YOU PRODUCED, DR. RICHARDSON, CALLED THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER. MS. PONZOLI: AND IT'S -- I GUESS I CAN JUST SHOW IT TO COUNSEL BECAUSE I ASKED THAT THEY BRING THESE. CAN WE GO OFF THE RECORD ONE SECOND? (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT? A. IT IS A TYPED VERSION OF THE WETLAND CENTER FLYER THAT WAS PRODUCED. Q. DID YOU AUTHOR THIS? A. FOR THE MOST PART, I DID. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. THIS WILL BE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 399 MARKED AS RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 4 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) MR. BURGESS: I JUST WANT TO STATE FOR THE RECORD THAT IN CHECKING MY RECORDS, IT DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE A DOCUMENT THAT I PROVIDED TO THE UNITED STATES. I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S--- MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT'S TRUE? MR. BURGESS: --- WITH DEFINITE CERTAINTY. BUT I THINK IT PROBABLY CAME FROM DR. RICHARDSONIS FILES, NOT AMONGST THE--- MR. GREEN: SUZAN, DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER COPY OF THAT, THAT I CAN LOOK AT? MR. BURGESS: OF THIS THING? MS. PONZOLI: WELL, MR. KILLINGER HAD IT AMONG HIS EXPERT DOCUMENTS, SO I THINK YOU PROBABLY DID PROVIDE IT. I DONFT THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL. MR. BURGESS: NO, I--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 400 MS. PONZOLI: I MEAN, IT'S THE SAME THING AS HIS DUKE WETLAND CENTER, WHICH I'M GOING TO HAND HIM IN TWO SECONDS. WHY DON'T WE GO AHEAD AND DO THAT? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A BROCHURE, CAN YOU IDENTIFY--- A. YES, THAT'S--- Q. --- THAT DOCUMENT? A. --- THAT'S THE CURRENT DUKE WETLAND CENTER FLYER. MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE TO MARK THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 5 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) AND I'D LIKE TO START, FIRST, DR. RICHARDSON, AND ASK YOU WHEN THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER WAS FORMED? A. WE HAVE HAD A DUKE PROGRAM SINCE MY ARRIVAL, OR SHORTLY THEREAFTER, IN 1977, AND OFFERED COURSES IN WETLANDS SINCE THE LATE "70'S. THE CENTER WAS OFFICIALLY -- AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW, IT TAKES TIME -- PROPOSED SOME TIME IN THE EARLY TO MID '80'S AS A UNIVERSITY CONCEPT, WHICH I SENT