DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 201
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WE HAVE A PENDING QUESTION THAT,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT COULD BE IMPROVED OVER
TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT?
A. AS I THINK I SORT OF HINTED, IF I DIDN'T, WITHOUT
REVIEWING THE DOCUMENTS IN MORE DETAIL, AND
LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DATA IN THE EAA, MORE
SPECIFIC DATA, I REALLY -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE
ARE SOME POSSIBILITIES THAT THEY COULD DO SO. I
THINK THERE MAY BE SOME OTHER MECHANISMS, THAT I
MENTIONED IN MY SECOND REPORT, THAT I THINK SHOULD
BE LOOKED AT, AND I STILL THINK THEY SHOULD BE
LOOKED AT, BUT WHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF
REDUCTIONS ARE, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN---
Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO OPINION AS TO HOW MUCH MORE THEY
COULD RAISE OVER TWENTY-FIVE---
A. RAISE?
MR. BURGESS: RAISE?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, LOWER -- I'M SORRY.
LOWER. RAISE THE PERCENTAGE OF REDUCTION, OR
WHATEVER. ANYWAY, LOWER THEIR PHOSPHORUS?
A. I DON'T HAVE A PERCENTAGE NUMBER IN MIND. I MEAN,
THERE ARE SOME OBVIOUS CHOICES IN SOME CASES, BUT
THE FARMERS HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, DECIDE, I MEAN,
SOME OF THOSE COMPONENTS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 202
Q. WHAT ARE THE OBVIOUS CHOICES?
A. WELL, I SUPPOSE THERE IS A SERIES OF STUDIES THAT
COULD BE DONE ON REDUCTIONS FOR, YOU KNOW,
VEGETABLE CROPS, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MUCH NUTRIENT
MATERIAL THEY COULD GET BY WITH. THERE ARE
STUDIES THAT COULD BE RECYCLING AND RECIRCULATING
WATER. THERE COULD BE SOME HOLDING PONDS THAT
COULD BE CONSIDERED. THERE COULD BE A VARIETY --
I MEAN, THERE ARE A WHOLE LIST OF TECHNIQUES, MOST
OF WHICH PEOPLE DON'T HAVE NUMBERS ON.
Q. THIS IS IN YOUR REPORT, YOU SAID?
A. SOME OF THOSE GENERIC AREAS ARE IN THE -- ARE
IN MY RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WAS IN MY SECOND
REPORT.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY YOUR SECOND REPORT, I THINK WE'RE A
LITTLE CONFUSED. DO YOU MEAN YOUR ANNUAL REPORT?
A. MY ANNUAL REPORT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHICH CHAPTER WAS THIS?
A. IT'S IN THE BACK.
Q. IN THE CONCLUSIONS?
A. I THINK THERE'S A SECTION CALLED RECOMMENDATIONS
OR SOMETHING.
Q. OKAY. AND THESE, REDUCTION OF VEGETABLE CROPS AND
THE HOLDING PONDS AND WHATEVER ELSE YOU HAD
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 203
LISTED, WERE ALL -- YOU BELIEVE WERE LISTED THERE,
TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION WERE THERE?
A. I JUST SAID BMP'S IN A GENERIC SENSE.
Q. OKAY, OKAY.
A. I DIDN'T SAY WHICH SPECIFIC ONES. MY POINT THERE
IS SIMPLY THAT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER
ALTERNATIVES THAT CAN BE LOOKED AT. AND I THINK
THAT, YOU KNOW, ALL SIDES SHOULD BE LOOKING AT
OTHER ALTERNATIVES.
Q. SUCH AS? NOW, YOU SAID THERE ARE OTHER POSSIBLE
ALTERNATIVES, BUT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD US WHAT THEY
ARE. YOUFVE MENTIONED THE BMP'S, AND YOU SAID
THAT YOU THOUGHT DR. PATRICK'S PROPOSAL SHOULD BE
FUNDED AND FOLLOWED THROUGH ON, BUT WHAT OTHER
ALTERNATIVES DO YOU BELIEVE ARE VIABLE?
A. WELL, I THINK I MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE SOME
HOLDING POND SCENARIOS, RECYCLING OF WATER WITHIN
THE SYSTEM, A REDUCTION OF UTILIZATION OF
NUTRIENTS. I THINK I MENTIONED THAT ONE. THERE
COULD BE TESTS DONE ON FORMS OF NUTRIENTS. BUT
THESE ARE -- THESE ARE NOT THINGS THAT YOU SIMPLY
ONE DAY TURN ON THE ANSWER AND GET THE ANSWER.
YOU NEED TO HAVE SOME SPECIFIC RESEARCH TAILORED
TO DO THIS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 204
Q. AND YOU RECOMMENDED AS FAR BACK AS 1989 THAT THE
INDUSTRY START DOING THAT?
A. I RECOM -- I'M SORRY.
MR. BURGESS: I OBJECT TO 'I'HE
CHARACTERIZATION OF HIS TESTIMONY --
"DOING THAT."
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DOING RESEARCH ON 'I'HESE BMP OR
ALTERNATE REMOVAL FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS.
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS, BUT
I -- IT MAY BE SOMETIME IN LATE 189 OR 190. AS I
SAID, I THINK THAT WAS MY -- SOMEWHERE IN THAT
TIME FRAME. BUT I DID NOT GIVE SPECIFIC --
SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS. I MEAN, I WAS NOT
ASKED TO, BUT I WAS TELLING THEM THAI' I THOUGHT
THAT WAS AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO APPROACH THIS, THAT
THEY SHOULD DO SO.
Q. IF YOU'RE CHECKING YOUR RECORDS, YOU MEAN YOUR
CALENDAR OF EVENTS---
A. UH---
Q. --- HOW DO YOU MEAN CHECK YOUR RECORDS? DO YOU
KEEP -- DO YOU KEEP LOGS THAT TELL YOU WHEN YOU
MET WITH PEOPLE?
A. NO, NOT PARTICULARLY. BUT I -- BUT I' MAY HAVE, IF
I WENT THROUGH AND LOOKED AT MY CORRESPONDENCE OR
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 205
SOMETHING, I MAY HAVE A WAY OF LOOKING TO SEE
WHAT -- YOU KNOW, I AM ACTUALLY NOT QUITE AS GOOD
AT THAT AS I SHOULD BE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR MEETING WITH
MR. WEDGWORTH IN 1988, FOLLOWING MR. BARBER
RECOMMENDING YOU, HAVING MET YOU AT A WETLANDS
CONFERENCE, AND MR. WEDGWORTH AT THAT TIME WAS IN
THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. WHAT HAPPENED
AFTER THAT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. AFTER OUR MEETING, OR DURING OUR MEETING, HE SAID
TO ME THAT, IN FACT, WHAT WE -- WHAT THAT --
MEANING THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS INTERESTED IN
WAS TO -- TO CONDUCT SOME RESEARCH. GEORGE HAS
ALWAYS BEEN FAIRLY, AT LEAST TO ME,
STRAIGHTFORWARD, IN THAT WE HAD TO FIND OUT THE
FACTS. WITHOUT THE FACTS, NO ONE COULD WE'D BE
ACTING BLINDLY ON THIS INFORMATION, 130 AND I
TOLD HIM THAT IF WE DID THIS RESEARCH, ONE, IT
WOULD HAVE TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. IT WOULD
HAVE TO BE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PUBLISH
THIS INFORMATION. WE DID NOT DO THIS INFORMATION
ANY OTHER WAY. HE SAID THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY NO
PROBLEM, AND -- BUT HE ALSO TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE
VISITING THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND SOME OTHER
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 206
INSTITUTIONS, AND SO THAT WE'D HAVE TO BASICALLY
DEVELOP A PROPOSAL, AND THEN THEY WOULD MAKE A
DECISION AFTER WE PRESENTED OUR PROPOSALS, WHAT WE
WOULD DO, AND THEN PROCEED FROM THERE. SO, WE
THEN WENT BACK -- I WENT BACK -- I SAY WE -- I
WENT BACK AND BASICALLY DEVELOPED A PROPOSAL TO
LOOK AT THE CATTAIL ISSUE. AND BASICALLY I CALLED
IT A PILOT STUDY, BECAUSE AT THAT TIME I FELT THAT
THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION, AS ANY ECOLOGIST
WOULD, YOU NEED TO -- I NEEDED TO GET MY OWN
BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON THE WHOLE STATE OF THE
EVERGLADES---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- SO, I PROCEEDED TO DO SO. AND---
Q. YOU DID A PROPOSAL TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND DO YOU BELIEVE YOU PROVIDED THAT TO US AMONG
YOUR DOCUMENTS?
A. I BELIEVE SO. IF I DIDN'T, I CAN SURELY PRODUCE
IT.
Q. WOULD YOU DO THAT? I WAS UNABLE TO LOCATE IT, AND
I JUST MUST HAVE PASSED BY IT, BUT THERE WERE A
FAIR NUMBER---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 207
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---AND THEY CAME IN TONS A DAY, FOR A PERIOD OF
TIME.
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT IF YOU COULD BRING
THAT, ALONG WITH YOUR CURRENT CV---
A. OKAY.
Q. --- AND MS. RAIKES' PAPER, IF YOU CAN GET THAT FROM
WHEREVER IT IS.
A. OKAY.
Q. OKAY.
MR. GREEN: HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT,
SUZAN. I MISSED THAT DEPO---
MS. PONZOLI: RAIKES?
MR. GREEN: YEAH.
MS. PONZOLI: R-A-I-K-E-S.
MR. GREEN: OKAY.
WITNESS: I DON'T BELIEVE HERE WAS A
DEPOSITION.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, HER NAME CAME UP IN
A PRIOR DEPOSITION.
WITNESS: RIGHT, BUT I---
MS. PONZOLI: THAT MR. GREEN WAS HERE.
MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 208
MS. PONZOLI: IT WAS JANE RAIKES.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. I WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO
THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING, FROM YOUR PROPOSAL,
PROBABLY FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. BUT I WOULD
LIKE TO GO BACK, DR. RICHARDSON, TO THE LINE I HAD
PREVIOUSLY BEEN PURSUING, AS TO WHICH EXPERT
WITNESSES YOU HAD BEEN WORKING WITH ON BEHALF OF
THE LEAGUE AND THE COOPERATIVE, AND TRY TO FINISH
THAT UP TODAY.
A. OKAY.
Q. BECAUSE THATFS WHERE -- IT'S HOW WE ENDED UP GOING
DOWN THIS ROAD.
A. OKAY.
Q. AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO FINISH UP THAT
DISCRETE AREA. I DON'T RECALL YOUR -- YOUR EXACT
PREVIOUS ANSWER AS TO WHOM YOU WERE WORKING WITH.
I THINK WE HAD GONE INTO -- YOU HAD DONE SOME
LITERATURE SEARCHES AND YOU'D MET WITH SOME
PEOPLE. I'D LIKE TO KNOW SPECIFICALLY, ARE THERE
EXPERTS WITH WHOM YOU CONSULT TO PREPARE EITHER
PRESENTATIONS, WHICH I THINK YOU DID SAY YOU HAD
DONE SOME OF THAT, DID YOU NOT?
A. DONE SOME PRESENTATIONS.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, WHOM HAVE YOU CONSULTED WITH TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 209
DO PRESENTATIONS?
MR. BURGESS: PRESENTATIONS TO WHOM?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHOM HAVE YOU DONE PRESENTATIONS
TO, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN I MAKE PRESENTATIONS, I
PRETTY MUCH DO THEM MYSELF, OR WITH MY STAFF.
AND WE DON'T -- WHAT WE PRESENT NORMALLY IS WHERE
WE -- USUALLY WE ARE ASKED TO -- AND IFLL TELL YOU
WHO IN A MINUTE -- WE ARE ASKED TO PRESENT OUR
CURRENT STATE OF KNOWLEDGE AND WHERE WE ARE ON
RESEARCH.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND, SO, I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY AUDUBON SOCIETY,
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, SOUTHERN FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, NUMEROUS NATIONAL AND
INTERNATIONAL MEETINGS TO PRESENT INFORMATION.
Q. WETLANDS CONFERENCES OF ALL DIFFERENT---
A. WETLAND CONFERENCES ALL DIFFERENT TYPES.
Q. SIZES, SORTS AND SHAPES?
A. LECTURES AT VARIOUS UNIVERSITIES---
Q. UH-HUH (YES). UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- HALF A DOZEN OF THOSE -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE
EXACT NUMBER -- AROUND THE COUNTRY, SPECIFICALLY
ON THIS EVERGLADES ISSUE, SO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 210
Q. HOW OFTEN DO YOU MEET -- WELL, WHOM 1)0 YOU MEET
WITH BEFORE YOU DO THESE? WHICH OF THE EXPERTS
FOR THE LEAGUE, OR THE COOPERATIVE, 1)0 YOU MEET
WITH PRIOR TO ANY OF THESE, SAGE OR SOUTH FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, OR AUDUBON OR FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, ANY OF THEM, WHOM
HAVE YOU MET WITH?
A. OCCASIONALLY, I MEET ON SOME OF THOSE
PRESENTATIONS -- YOU KNOW, YOU WANT SPECIFIC
PEOPLE?
Q. I WANT SPECIFIC PEOPLE.
A. MOST OF THE TIME, I'D -- I'D HAVE TO GO IN
CHRONOLOGY, IT'S -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S
USUALLY TO -- TO BASICALLY GIVE AN OVERVIEW OF
WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY. SECONDLY, IT'S PEOPLE LIKE
ANDY RACKLEY. AT ONE TIME, IT WAS ED BARBER.
OCCASIONALLY, IT WAS BOB BUKER. AND SOME OF THE
OTHER PEOPLE, I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES. I
OCCASIONALLY HAVE MADE PRESENTATIONS TO THE EQC ON
MY RESEARCH.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER HAD -- HAS DR. DAVIS EVER
PARTICIPATED IN---
A. OH, YES.
Q. --- ANY OF THESE MEETINGS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 211
A. OH, YES, JOHN DAVIS. YES, DR. JOHN DAVIS HAS BEEN
AT THOSE MEETINGS.
Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON?
A. OH, NOT -- NOT VERY MANY OF THE MEETINGS THAT I'VE
BEEN AT THAT -- HAS HE BEEN AT. HE WAS -- HE MAY
HAVE BEEN AT ONE OR TWO, BUT NOT VERY MANY. I
HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT MOST OF THESE MEETINGS.
Q. OKAY. DR. PATRICK, HAS HE EVER PARTICIPATED IN
ANY OF THESE?
A. HE HAS PARTICIPATED OCCASIONALLY.
Q. DR. POLLMAN?
A. ON -- I HAVE MET WITH -- MET WITH HIM
OCCASIONALLY, BUT NOT ON THESE MEETINGS---
Q. OKAY. WHAT---
A. --- NOT ON THOSE MEETINGS, NO.
Q. WHAT HAVE YOU MEET WITH DR. POLLMAN ON?
A. WE HAVE HAD SOME MEETINGS -- ONE IN GAINESVILLE,
AND ONE, I BELIEVE, OR MAYBE TWO AT DUKE.
Q. ON WHAT?
A. SPECIFICALLY TO -- TO -- TO LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE
BEEN DOING. THEY PRIMARILY -- IN FACT, BILL GREEN
CAME TO ONE OF THOSE MEETINGS, OR MAYBE TWO OF
THEM, TO -- BASICALLY, THEY WANTED TO BE BROUGHT
UP TO SPEED AS TO WHERE OUR RESEARCH WAS. AND, IN
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 212
FACT, THAT IS PART AND PARCEL -- MOST OF THE TIME
WHEN I MEET WITH PEOPLE, I'D SAY EIGHTY PERCENT --
I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT FIGURE -- THAT IS WHAT I'M
DOING. I AM BRINGING THIS GROUP UP TO SPEED OF
WHAT WE'RE FINDING.
Q. DO THEY EVER OFFER COMMENTS ON THE TONE OF YOUR
PRESENTATION, OR MAKE SUGGESTIONS AS TO THE
VISUALS THAT YOU MIGHT USE?
A. NOT REALLY. THEY'RE MOSTLY CONFUSED BY IT, I
THINK.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THEM QUOTE WHAT YOU DID IN THE
PRESENTATIONS?
A. HAVE I EVER HEARD THEM? NO.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER READ REPRESENTATIONS IN PRESS
RELEASES AS TO WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THE CURRENT
STATE OF YOUR RESEARCH?
A. I HAVE---
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM,
JUST WHO THEM IS. I DON'T KNOW WHO
THEM IS.
WITNESS: YEAH, WHO IS THEM? WHO
BE THEM?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, ONE OF THE THEMS IS
MR. BUKER.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 213
A. YES. AND HAVE I EVER HEARD OR---
Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OR READ MR. BUKERIS
CHARACTERIZATIONS OF THE CURRENT STATE OF YOUR
RESEARCH?
A. I'VE READ, I BELIEVE -- AS YOU KNOW, I DO GET SOME
NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS FROM DOWN THERE, TO TRY TO
KEEP ABREAST OF WHAT'S GOING ON.
Q. I'VE GOT A FEW.
A. WELL, IF YOU READ THE BACK---
Q. YOURS AND MINE.
A. IF YOU -- IF YOU READ THE BACKSIDE, THERE'S DEAR
ABBY AND MORE INTERESTING READING ON THE BACK.
PARDON ME. I HAVE READ SOME, I BELIEVE -- I CAN'T
REMEMBER HOW MANY -- BUT SOME COMMENTS THAT HE HAS
MADE RELATED TO OUR RESEARCH.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER FOUND MISCHARACTERIZATIONS OF YOUR
RESEARCH?
A. I'D SAY AT LEAST MISUNDERSTANDINGS OF SOME
COMPONENTS OF IT.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU FIND THAT DR. PATRICK AND DR.
POLLMAN WERE CONFUSED BY THE STATE OF YOUR
RESEARCH?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. NOR DR. DAVIS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 214
A. NO. HOWEVER, YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT IN SOME
ASPECTS, THE DEPTH OF WHICH YOU DISCUSS CERTAIN
COMPONENTS OF RESEARCH CAN BE, TO ALMOST ANYONE,
CONFUSING UNLESS YOU HAVE THE MATERIAL TO READ OR
GO THROUGH IT. IT CAN BE. AND, ALSO, IT ALSO MAY
BE THAT I SPEAK RAPIDLY AND AM NOT QUITE AS CLEAR
ON SOME THINGS AS I SHOULD BE.
Q. IN PREPARATION FOR YOUR PRESENTATIONS AT, LET'S
SAY WHATEVER, A WETLANDS CONFERENCE OR WHATEVER,
ANY OF THESE -- THESE MEETINGS, HAVE YOU HAD JOINT
MEETINGS THAT INCLUDED ATTORNEYS AND OTHER
EXPERTS?
A. NO.
Q. THEY HAVE ONLY INCLUDED OTHER EXPERTS OR
CONSULTANTS?
A. NO ONE -- LIKE FOR, SAY, A WETLANDS MEETING?
Q. FOR SAGE -- FOR SAGE. LET'S SAY SPECIFICALLY FOR
THE SAGE PRESENTATION.
A. I'M SORRY, BUT I THOUGHT I THOUGHT YOU HAD SAID
WETLANDS MEETINGS.
Q. WELL, NO, I'VE SORT OF MADE THEM ALL GENERIC.
I'VE INCLUDED ALL OF THESE, SAGE, AUDUBON, U.S.
SUGAR OR SOUTH FLORIDA. I SORT OF LUMPED THEM ALL
TOGETHER.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 215
MR. BURGESS: THEN I'LL OBJECT TO THE
FORM OF THE QUESTION, BASED UPON ITS
OVERBREADTH AND AMBIGUITY. AND, ON THAT
BASIS, I THINK THAT YOU'RE IMPLICATING
POTENTIALLY SOME ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT
AND/OR ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRESENTATIONS AS FAR
AS THE LEAGUE AND U.S. SUGAR ARE CONCERNED,
WITH OTHER PRESENTATIONS SUCH AS SAGE,
AUDUBON, AND WETLANDS CONFERENCE, AND I
DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO THAT.
A. SO ---
MS. PONZOLI: I CAN ASK HIM IF HE MET
WITH EXPERTS AND ATTORNEYS PRIOR.
MR. BURGESS: OH, SURE.
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT
QUESTION IS IMPROPER.
MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO ANSWER. I JUST THINK IT'S
CONFUSING.
A. FIRST OF ALL, I WOULDN'T LUMP ALL THOSE TOGETHER,
BECAUSE -- BUT WE CAN GO THROUGH. YOU SAID
SPECIFICALLY SAGE?
Q. THE LAST SAGE PRESENTATION, THE ONE THAT WE'RE
GOING TO---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 216
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- YOU KNOW, DISCUSS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE YOU'VE
REFERRED TO IT SEVERAL TIMES TODAY, AND I HAVE,
TOO. LET'S TAKE THAT ONE SPECIFICALLY. DID YOU
MEET WITH OTHER EXPERTS, AND/OR ATTORNEYS, PRIOR
TO THAT PRESENTATION?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU MEET WITH BOTH OTHER EXPERTS
AND ATTORNEYS?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. WHOM DID YOU MEET WITH?
A. I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHO WAS -- THERE WAS
ACTUALLY -- JUST PRIOR TO THE ACTUAL SAGE MEETING
ITSELF, I WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SCIENCE ADVISORY
REVIEW BOARD FOR EPA, AND I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS,
AND SO I ACTUALLY PREPARED THAT PRESENTATION,
WHICH I DID MYSELF. I DO ALL OF MY OWN
PRESENTATIONS, WITH THE HELP OF MY STAFF---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND MET JUST BRIEFLY -- BECAUSE I ACTUALLY HAD
VERY DIFFICULT CONNECTIONS, I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS,
AND I FLEW TO MIAMI, AND ACTUALLY ROI)E UP WITH
RICK. AND I MET IN MIAMI -- THERE WERE A NUMBER
OF PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM WHO WERE HAVING A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 217
CONSULTANT'S MEETING. OKAY, SO -- AND I DON'T --
I DID NOT SIT IN THAT MEETING, PER SE. I COULDN'T
TELL YOU ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THERE.
THEY WERE DOING WHATEVER THEY WERE DOING, AND I
SAT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY FINISHED THEIR
PRESENTATIONS, AND THEN I CAME IN AND MADE A BRIEF
OVERVIEW OF WHAT I WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE NEXT
DAY, AND THEN DROVE UP. AND THEN WE -- I MADE THE
PRESENTATION, SO.
Q. ARE YOU -- YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT MR. BURGESS AND
MR. GREEN WERE THERE?
MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. BUT I DON"T --- MR. GREEN
MAY HAVE BEEN THERE, AND MAY HAVE LE-FT. I CAN'T
REMEMBER IF HE LEFT EARLY OR NOT. I DON'T
REMEMBER IF HE STAYED FOR THE PRESENTATION OR
NOT.
Q. YOU'RE NOT IMPLYING THAT ANYONE ON THIS SIDE OF
THE TABLE WAS THERE?
A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER, BUT THERE WERE SOME OTHER
PEOPLE THERE. I BELIEVE PHIL---
MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTION.
MS. PONZOLI: OH, HE CAN ANSWER WHO WAS
THERE. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL HIM HE CAN'T
TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING, MR. BURGESS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 218
MR. BURGESS: RIGHT. RIGHT.
MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU INSTRUCTING HIM
NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING?
MR. BURGESS: YES.
MS. PONZOLI: ON WHAT BASIC?
MR. BURGESS: ON THE BASIS THAT HE
IDENTIFIED IT, AND I KNOW IT AS AN ATTORNEY
CONSULTANT MEETING. THE MAN CONSULTS FOR THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. HE SHARES A
COMMON INTEREST WITH RESPECT TO THE ATTORNEYS
AND CONSULTANTS THAT CONSULT WITH THE LEAGUE.
I MEAN, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE IDENTIFIES
PERSONS THAT WERE THERE MAY IMPLICATE MY
LITIGATION STRATEGY WITH RESPECT TO THE
PEOPLE THAT I CALL TOGETHER. HE HAS
TESTIFIED HE WAS NOT AT THE MEETING; HE
SAT IN THE HALLWAY.
MS. PONZOLI: BUT HE ENTERED THE ROOM
AND HE SAW THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM AND
PARTICIPATED IN THE MEETING TO THAT EXTENT.
MR. BURGESS: YES, WITH RESPECT TO
MAKING HIS BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS
GOING TO DO THE NEXT DAY, AND IF THAT'S
YOU'RE ASKING WHO WAS THERE FOR THAT MEETING,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 219
THAT'S FINE, BUT NOT WITH RESPECT TO THE
PREVIOUS MEETING WHICH HE SAID FIE DIDN'T
ATTEND.
MS. PONZOLI: HE CAN'T TELL ME WHO WAS
THERE FOR THE PREVIOUS MEETING?
MR. BURGESS: THATTS RIGHT.
MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU'RE INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. BURGESS: YES.
MS. PONZOLI: BECAUSE IT REVEALS
ATTORNEY/CLIENT PRIVILEGE?
MR. BURGESS: DO WE REALLY NEED TO
HAVE THIS TETE A TETE ON THE RECORD, MS.
PONZOLI?
MS. PONZOLI: OH, YES. WE MOST
CERTAINLY DO NEED TO HAVE THIS TETE-A-TETE ON
THE RECORD, BECAUSE THIS IS PRECISELY THE
TYPE OF INFORMATION THAT BOTH THE LEAGUE AND
THE COOPERATIVE ARE SEEKING FROM THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT ON SOME SIGNIFICANT MEETINGS THAT
I'VE BELIEVE REFLECT ATTORNEY-CLIENT
PRIVILEGES, AND I FIND IT VERY, VERY AMAZING
THAT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO SEEK THIS TYPE OF
INFORMATION. SO, I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT VERY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 220
CLEAR WHAT I AM BEING PROHIBITED FROM
OBTAINING, BECAUSE I HAVE THIS STINKY LITTLE
FEELING THAT THESE THINGS CUT BOTH WAYS, SO I
JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT.
MR. BURGESS: IT'S CLARIFIED. CONSIDER
IT VERY CLEAR. I'M INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO
ANSWER TO TELL YOU WHO WAS AT THE MEETING,
THAT HE'S IDENTIFIED AS THE ATTORNEY-
CONSULTANT MEETING, WHICH PRECEDED HIS BRIEF
OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE
NEXT DAY.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. GREEN: I GUESS I NEED TO SAY
SOMETHING FOR THE RECORD, SINCE IT'S ALMOST
FIVE.
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T CARE WHO'S AT
THE NEXT---
MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, I DON'T RECALL
THE INSTANCE IN WHICH YOU MADE A SIMILAR
STATEMENT THAT I -- I HAVENFT BEEN TO ALL
THE DEPOSITIONS WITH REGARD TO YOUR
WITNESSES. I'LL JUST SAY, ONE, I DON'T
RECALL THAT. NUMBER TWO, FOR THE RECORD,
I WAS NOT AT THE MEETING IN MIAMI THAT YOU'RE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 221
TALKING ABOUT. I'D LIKE TO JUST STATE THAT.
WE CAN GO AHEAD.
MR. KILLINGER: NOR WAS I.
WITNESS: I SAID I DIDN'T -- I WASN'T
SURE WHETHER HE WAS THERE. I THINK I -- HE
APPARENTLY CLARIFIED THAT.
MS. PONZOLI: SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING,
MR. GREEN IS YOU WOULD CONTINUE TO ASSERT
YOUR RIGHT TO OBTAIN THE -- THE ATTENDEES AT
SUCH MEETINGS?
MR. GREEN: IF IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR ME
TO OBTAIN THEM, AND AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW THE
FACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF WHICH YOU'RE
SPEAKING. SURE. THAT'S WHY I'M STATING
THIS. I'M NOT WAIVING ANY RIGHT TO OBTAIN
WHATEVER DISCOVERY WE'RE ENTITLED TO, BUT I
DON'T HAVE THE HISTORY OF THIS THAT YOU AND
MR. BURGESS HAVE. I JUST WANTED TO STATE
THAT SO IT WOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A WAIVER
IN LIGHT OF WHAT YOU SAID.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK -- I THINK
THAT IT MAY BE THAT IT IS THE COOPERATIVE
THAT IS SEEKING THE MEMBERS OF CERTAIN
MEETINGS, AND---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 222
MR. GREEN: THAT MAY BE.
MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, IT MAY BE.
MR. GREEN: I CAN'T DEBATE THAT WITH
YOU, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS OF THE
MATTER.
MS. PONZOLI: YOUR INTERROGATORIES, YOU
DON'T REMEMBER YOUR INTERROGATORIES?
MR. GREEN: I'LL GO BACK AND LOOK AT
THOSE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY, YOU MIGHT BE
INTERESTED.
MR. GREEN: SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA,
THOUGH.
MR. REID: WHO WAS AT THE NEXT MEETING
IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
MS. PONZOLI: I KNOW. MR. REID, I WILL
ASK.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU HAVE NOT, DR. RICHARDSON,
BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE
MEETING WHERE YOU WALKED INTO THE ROOM AND PEOPLE
WERE SITTING THERE. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WAS NOT
THERE, SO WHO WAS? MR. BURGESS, I ASSUME WAS
THERE.
A. MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. JOHN DAVIS WAS THERE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 223
Q. OKAY.
A. IT WAS ACTUALLY VERY SPARSE BY THAT TIME, BECAUSE
IT WAS VERY LATE IN THE DAY. THERE WAS NOT AS
MUCH INTEREST AS YOU MIGHT THINK.
MR. REID: CAN WE ASK WHO HE PASSED
AS HE WALKED IN THE ROOM, SINCE THE MEETING
WAS TECHNICALLY OVER, AND THE PRIVILEGE
ENDED?
A. UH---
MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU GOING TO INSTRUCT
HIM NOT TO INDICATE WHO PASSED HIM IN THE
HALL, MR. BURGESS?
MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT.
MR. REID: IT MUST BE GETTING NEAR FIVE
O'CLOCK.
A. I'M NOT SURE. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER
PERSON, BUT I'M JUST NOT---
Q. YOU DID IT TO AN AUDIENCE OF TWO, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. IT MAY HAVE FALL -- IT WAS VERY FEW. I MEAN, IT
WASN'T MORE THAN FOUR. IT MAY HAVE BEEN THREE,
BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS VERY FEW. IT WAS---
Q. WAS MR. LARSON THERE?
A. NO, I DO NOT---
Q. MR. PARSONS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 224
A. HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT I'M THINKING OF, BUT I HAVE
A RECOLLECTION THAT HE MAY HAVE HAD TO LEAVE EARLY
FOR A FLIGHT CONNECTION---
Q. HOW DID---
A. --- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW --
THEY PROBABLY GET TIRED OF HEARING THIS
INFORMATION.
Q. WHO ELSE DID PRESENTATIONS AT THAT MEETING?
A. AT MY MEETING?
Q. AT THE ONE THAT YOU WAITED IN LINE TO DO YOUR
PRESENTATION.
A. I WAS THE ONLY ONE. I WAS THE TAIL-E:ND. I CAME
IN LATE. IT WAS -- IT WAS IN THE EVENING. IT WAS
PAST SUPPER TIME, IF MY RECOLLECTION IS CORRECT.
Q. SO, YOU DID THE PRESENTATION THAT YOU WERE
OFFERING AT SAGE THE NEXT DAY?
A. CORRECT.
Q. WAS IT CRITIQUED OR COMMENTED ON?
A. NOT MUCH.
Q. APPLAUDED?
A. NO.
Q. NONE OF THE ABOVE?
A. NO.
Q. I THINK YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE HAD OTHER
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 225
MEETINGS IN THIS -- IN THIS REGARD. I WOULD LIKE
TO KNOW WHAT THOSE HAVE BEEN.
A. IN WHICH REGARD?
Q. WHERE YOU HAVE MET WITH OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE
LEAGUE, AND/OR THE COOPERATIVE.
A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, I HAVE MET A NUMBER OF
TIMES FOR EQC, WHICH THERE COULD HAVE BEEN --
WELL, THERE WERE IN CERTAIN INSTANCES, CONSULTANTS
THERE.
Q. WHO WAS THERE?
A. WELL, DR. PATRICK AND DR. DAVIS PRIMARILY ARE THE
TWO. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER PEOPLE, BUT
SOME OF THESE MEETINGS ARE TWO OR THREE YEARS OLD,
SO ITTS HARD TO SAY.
Q. MR. BARBER?
A. OH, YES. MR. BARBER WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE.
Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON?
A. AS I SAID, MR. LARSON AND I HAVE CROSSED PATHS
VERY LITTLE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, OTHER THAN
MAYBE AT A SAGE MEETING WHERE HE'S I14 ONE PLACE
AND I'M IN ANOTHER.
Q. SURE.
A. WE'VE NOT -- WE'VE NOT MET.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW OFTEN YOU HAVE MET WITH
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 226
DR. DAVIS?
A. UH, A FEW TIMES. I DON'T KNOW, A HALF A DOZEN
TIMES, BUT NOT -- NOT SINGLY. PRIMARILY IN THESE
MEETINGS, HE WOULD BE IN THE SAME ROOM THAT I
WOULD BE IN.
Q. HAS DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR
THE LEAGUE OR THE COOPERATIVE EVER PREPARED
VISUALS OR SLIDES OR EXHIBITS FOR YOU' TO USE AT A
PRESENTATION?
A. I BELIEVE IN '89, WHEN I WAS WORKING FOR THE
LEAGUE, SOME GENERAL 3-D GRAPHICS WERE PRODUCED
PRIMARILY OF BACKGROUNDS, WATER MANAGEMENT DATA.
NONE OF MY DATA, PER SE, THAT I CAN REMEMBER.
THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OR TWO INSTANCES. MOST OF
IT WAS WHAT I CALL GENERIC RAINFALL DATA, SOUTH
FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DAI'A, BECAUSE,
AT THAT TIME, WE DID NOT HAVE THE COMPUTER SYSTEM
AVAILABLE TO PRODUCE SLIDES---
Q. WAS THIS---
A. --- AND HE DID.
Q. OKAY. WAS THIS FOR A PRESENTATION TO THE WATER
MANAGEMENT BOARD?
A. ONE OF THEM, YES, IT WAS.
Q. HAD DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 227
SUBSEQUENTLY PREPARED VISUALS OR SLIDES OR
GRAPHICS FOR YOU TO USE?
A. IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, I HAVE PRODUCED ALL OF MY
OWN SLIDES, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. THERE MAY BE ONE OR
TWO SLIDES THAT ARE AN EXCEPTION TO THAT. BUT
I'VE GOT OVER, AS YOU KNOW, FIFTEEN HUNDRED
SLIDES. I CAN'T REALLY ATTEST TO THAT. I
ACTUALLY HAVE TEN THOUSAND SLIDES, BUT IT TOOK ME
A LONG TIME TO SEPARATE THOSE FROM THE EVERGLADES
SLIDES.
MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT, DR. RICHARDSON,
I THINK WE'RE A LITTLE PAST FIVE AND I FEEL
THE ROOM GROWING RESTLESS, SO WE HAD
BETTER---
WITNESS: THE ANIMALS ARE HUNGRY.
MS. PONZOLI: WE'LL START AGAIN IN THE
MORNING AT NINE.
WITNESS: AT NINE?
MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES).
------------------------------------------------------
(THEREUPON, THIS PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF
DR. RICHARDSON WAS RECESSED AT 5:06 P.M., TO
BE RESUMED AT 9:00 A.M. ON JANUARY 12, 1993.)
------------------------------------------------------
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 228
THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION
OF DR. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON WAS TAKEN ON THE
4TH DAY OF JANUARY, 1993, BEGINNING AT OR AROUND
9:00 A.M. IN THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH
ROAD, THE WALKER SUITE, DURHAM, NORTH
CAROLINA, AND WAS REPORTED BY PAMELA S. LILES,
A NOTARY PUBLIC.
MS. PONZOLI: MR. McCAUGHAN -- I WOULD
LIKE TO PUT ON THE RECORD -- MR. McCAUGHAN
PHONED AND SAID THAT HE'S TIED UP IN A
CONFERENCE CALL, AND THAT WE COULD START
WITHOUT HIM, AND THAT HE WOULD BE HERE AS
SOON AS HE WAS ABLE.
MR. BURGESS: SUZAN, I WOULD ALSO LIKE
TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE RECORD, IF I MAY.
YES?
MS. PONZOLI: (GESTURES.)
MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE GESTURING MY WAY.
IN MAKING MY OBJECTIONS YESTERDAY CONCERNING
INSTRUCTING THE WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER WHO WAS
PRESENT AT VARIOUS LITIGATION, CONSULTANT AND
OTHER MEETINGS, I WAS FOLLOWING THE LEAD OF
THE UNITED STATES SET IN THE FEDERAL SUIT,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 229
SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO THE FINLEY AND
WALKER DEPOSITIONS. HOWEVER, SINCE THE
STATEMENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES YESTERDAY
ON THE RECORD THAT DISCLOSURE IS A TWO-WAY
STREET, I AM NOT GOING TO INSTRUCT
DR. RICHARDSON NOT TO ANSWER SUCH QUESTIONS
CONCERNING THE NAMES OF PERSONS WHO WERE IN
ATTENDANCE AT THESE MEETINGS, INCLUDING THE
MEETINGS ABOUT WHICH HE SPOKE YESTERDAY, WITH
ONE EXCEPTION THAT I AM AWARE OF, ONE MEETING
THAT DR. RICHARDSON ATTENDED, THAT I ALSO
ATTENDED, WAS ATTENDED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT
NOW A LISTED TESTIFYING EXPERT FOR THE
LEAGUE, AND I THINK PURSUANT TO CASE LAW
UNTIL HE IS, IF EVER, LISTED AS A TESTIFYING
WITNESS, HIS IDENTITY MAY NOT BE DISCLOSED
THROUGH THIS WITNESS. THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I GUESS -- THAT'S
QUITE AN INTERESTING CONCESSION, BECAUSE YOU
ACTUALLY DIDN'T CONCEDE MUCH, YOU KEPT BACK
THE ONE THING THAT WE HAD ARGUED OVER
YESTERDAY. BUT IF I HEAR YOU CORRECTLY,
YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT I MAY
ASK HIM WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT THE PRIOR
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 230
MEETING. I WILL NOT, HOWEVER, IN REFERENCE
TO THE ISSUES THAT MR. GREEN AND I WERE
ALLUDING TO IN REGARD TO THE SETTLEMENT
DISCUSSION MEETINGS, WAIVE ANY OBJECTIONS OR
PRIVILEGES THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO
ASSERT. SO, I WANT TO BE FAIR WITH YOU IN
THAT REGARD. OUR POSITION REGARDING THOSE
MEETINGS IS NOT GOING TO BE ALTERED BY YOUR
STATEMENT. BUT IF I UNDERSTAND YOU
CORRECTLY, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT YOU HAVE
WITHDRAWN YOUR INSTRUCTION TO YOUR WITNESS TO
ANSWER, EXCEPT AS TO THE ONE INDIVIDUAL YOU
INDICATE IS A -- I THINK I CAN HAVE THE
IDENTITY OF A CONSULTANT; I JUST DON'T THINK
I CAN HAVE HIS DEPOSITION, MR. BURGESS, SO I
THINK I WOULD ASK YOU TO RECONSIDER THAT.
MR. BURGESS: I DISAGREE.
MS. PONZOLI: SO, YOU ARE INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO GIVE ME THAT PARTICULAR CON --
YOU'RE CALLING THIS A CONSULTANT, IS THAT
ACCURATE?
MR. BURGESS: RIGHT, A NON-TESTIFYING
CONSULTANT.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 231
MR. BURGESS: AND I DISAGREE. I THINK
IT IS A MAJOR CONCESSION ON OUR PART, WHICH
I UNDERSTAND IS GOING TO OPERATE AS A
QUID PRO QUO WITH RESPECT TO CONSULTANT
MEETINGS AND THE NAMES OF PERSONS IN
ATTENDANCE AT CONSULTANT MEETINGS, IF THOSE
PERSONS ARE EITHER ATTORNEYS, CLIENTS, OR
LISTED AS TESTIFYING EXPERT WITNESSES. AND I
WOULD EXPECT THAT IF YOU HAVE NON-TESTIFYING
EXPERT CONSULTANTS YOU WOULD ALSO REFRAIN
FROM IDENTIFYING THEM BASED UPON THE INSTANCE
THAT I JUST MENTIONED.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, SINCE YOU'VE
OBVIOUSLY SPENT THE EVENING DISCUSSING THIS
WITH MR. GREEN AND HAD A PREPARED STATEMENT
TO READ, I SUGGEST WE GO OFF THE RECORD AND I
HAVE BRIEF MEETING WITH MY CO-RE:SPONDENTS AND
SEE IF WE WANT TO COME BACK WITH A POSITION
THAT WE'LL PUT ON THE RECORD.
MR. BURGESS: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
MS. PONZOLI: GOING BACK ON THE RECORD.
I THINK WE'RE GOING TO WANT TO TAKE THIS ON
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 232
A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT
WILLING TO ENTER SOME GLOBAL STIPULATION AT
THIS POINT, MR. BURGESS. BUT SINCE YOU HAVE
NARROWED YOUR INSTRUCTION ABOUT NOT
ANSWERING, THEN I THINK I WILL ASK
DR. RICHARDSON.
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. YOU WERE WAITING IN THE HALL AT THIS MEETING IN
PREPARATION FOR SORT OF A DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE
PRESENTATION, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE INDIVIDUAL YOUR
LAWYER HAS INSTRUCTED YOU NOT TO REVEAL -- I
ASSUME YOU KNOW WHO THIS PERSON WAS, DO YOU?
A. THE PERSON THAT I'M---
Q. THAT YOU'VE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO REVEAL.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THAT
PERSON, PLEASE TELL ME WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT
THAT PRE-MEETING.
A. AT THE PRE-MEETING?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. WELL, SINCE I SAID I ONLY JUST SORT OF POPPED IN
AND SAID I WAS -- "I'M HERE." AND THEY SAID, "GO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 233
OUT, WAIT IN THE HALLWAY." AND THEN, OF COURSE,
WHEN THE MEETING BROKE UP, I SAW SOME PEOPLE IN
THE ROOM. I DID NOT SEE ALL THE PEOPLE. THERE
WERE -- I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T TELL YOU THE TOTAL
NUMBER.
Q. TEN, MAYBE?
A. MAYBE TEN, MAYBE TWELVE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE TOTAL. I DIDN'T COUNT
THEM.
Q. WAS MR. WEDGWORTH ONE OF THEM?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER, SERIOUSLY.
Q. OKAY.
A. THE PEOPLE I CAN REMEMBER IN THAT ROOM WERE PHIL
PARSONS, JOHN DAVIS, RICK BURGESS, DE,
BREEDLOVE---
Q. DENNIS BREEDLOW?
A. BREEDLOVE, I THINK IT IS.
Q. OH.
A. COURTNEY HACKNEY. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER
ATTORNEYS THERE FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK, BUT
I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHICH ONES THEY WERE. I
JUST DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q. MS. CAVANAUGH OR MR. EARL?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 234
A. I THINK BILL EARL WAS THERE.
Q. MR. BUKER?
A. YES, HE WAS THERE.
Q. ANYONE FROM FLO SUN?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. AS I SAID, I REALLY DIDN'T -- I
REALLY---
Q. PETE ROSENDAHL?
A. YEAH, I THINK PETE ROSENDAHL WAS THERE.
Q. WE'VE GOT EIGHT. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WASN'T
THERE.
A. I THINK I TOLD YOU YESTERDAY I WASN'T SURE IF HE
WAS OR HE WASN'T.
Q. HE TOLD US.
MR. GREEN: NOT THAT I WOULDN'T
HAVE ENJOYED BEING THERE.
MS. PONZOLI: THEY DIDN'T INVITE
ME EITHER.
WITNESS: THEY DIDN'T INVITE ME
EITHER; I HAD TO WAIT IN THE HALLWAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WAS THERE A REASON FOR THAT,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I THINK -- WELL, THEY'VE HAD A NUMBER OF
CONSULTANT MEETINGS WHICH I AM NOT INVOLVED
WITH.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 235
Q. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT MEETING, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. OKAY. AND WERE THEY HAVING A PRESENTATION BY THIS
OTHER PERSON WHOM YOUFVE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO
IDENTIFY?
A. I WAS NOT AT THAT MEETING.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW IF THE OTHER PERSON DID
A PRESENTATION OR NOT, YOU HAD NO EVIDENCE THAT
THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE ONE?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S ALL THE PEOPLE YOU CAN REMEMBER
AT THAT MEETING?
A. THAT'S ALL I CAN REMEMBER. AND I'D BE
SPECULATING, I MEAN, YOU KNOW. AND I MAY NOT BE
A HUNDRED PERCENT ACCURATE ON THOSE, -.1 MEAN. BUT
I -- YOU KNOW, IT'S REASONABLE -- IT'S A
REASONABLE LIST.
Q. OKAY. AND I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY THAT
MISTER -- YOU THINK, TO THE BEST OF YOUR
RECOLLECTION, APPROXIMATELY, MR. PARSONS,
MR. BURGESS, MR. DAVIS, MAY HAVE REMAINED BEHIND
TO HEAR YOUR DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE PRESENTATION,
IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. YES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 236
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU WERE EXCLUDED FROM THAT FIRST
MEETING?
A. WELL, AS I SAID, IT'S -- FOR THE FIRST -- WELL,
SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THE GRANT, WHILE I HAVE
ADVISED THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE ON SOME MATTERS AS
TO THE EXPERTS THEY MIGHT CONSIDER, OR SOME
SPECIFIC MATTERS, OR DOCUMENTS, OR OTHER TYPES OF
INFORMATION, I HAVE NOT BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE
CONSULTANTS; I HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING IN THE FIELD
WITH THEM, NOR HAVE I -- THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS
TO THAT RELATED TO REVIEWING, AS I MENTIONED THE
OTHER DAY, THE ENTRY INTO THE PARK; I HAVE LOOKED
AT SOME OF THAT DOCUMENTATION. BUT IN TERMS OF
THE WORK THAT THE CONSULTANTS ARE DOING, I'M
REALLY -- OTHER THAN A VERY CURSORY WAY, I'M
REALLY NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND
THAT'S BEEN KEPT THAT WAY, BOTH FROM 'THEIR POINT
OF VIEW AND FROM MY POINT OF VIEW. IT'S ONLY
DONE, I GUESS, AS A WAY TO KEEP SEPARATE THE
A. RESEARCH COMPONENT AND WHAT CONSULTANCIES I DO
FOR THEM. AND, SO, I THINK BASICALLY IN THAT
PARTICULAR CASE, I MEAN, I'M JUST NOT -- I'M NOT
PRIVY TO THE INFORMATION OR WHAT THEY'VE DISCUSSED
IN TERMS OF THEIR CONSULTANCY WORK.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 237
Q. WAS THIS EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU AS AN ACTUAL
STRATEGY THAT THE VARIOUS CONSULTANTS WOULD BE
KEPT SEPARATE, EXCEPT IN CERTAIN FORMAL LINES OF
COMMUNICATION?
A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU EARLIER, WHEN I STARTED WITH
GEORGE -- WORKING WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH, WHO AT
THAT TIME WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, INITIALLY, I BASICALLY POINTED OUT THAT
THE UNIVERSITY WOULD WORK ON THE BASIS THAT THE
INFORMATION WE WOULD GATHER WOULD BE OPEN AND IN
OPEN FORUM; THAT WE WOULD HAVE STUDENTS INVOLVED;
AND THAT WE WOULD HAVE JUNIOR FACULTY MEMBERS
INVOLVED, AND THEY MUST BE ALLOWED TO PUBLISH;
AND -- OTHERWISE, THE UNIVERSITY -- WE WOULD BE
INTERESTED MORE IN THE BASIC RESEARCH THAN WHAT'S
GOING ON. AND GEORGE WAS ABSOLUTELY 'INSISTENT,
WHILE HE WAS HEAD OF THE LEAGUE, AND ALSO EARLY
ON, AND STILL, AS FAR AS I KNOW IN MY EVEN MORE
RECENT CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM, THAT THAT IS THE
APPROPRIATE TACK TO TAKE. SO, FROM MY POINT OF
VIEW, I THINK IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE; AND FROM
THEIR POINT OF VIEW, IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE. SO,
FOR THE RESEARCH PART, WE'VE TRIED TO KEEP THOSE
AS SEPARATE AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE KEPT THEM
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 238
ABREAST, AND I DO THAT CONTINUALLY WHEN THEY ASK,
OR ANY ORGANIZATION ASKS WHAT ARE MY FINDINGS TO
DATE, I DO MAKE THOSE PRESENTATIONS. BUT I THINK
IT WAS -- SO, I THINK I'VE ANSWERED -- DID I
ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?
Q. NO, SIR, I DON'T THINK YOU DID. I THINK I ASKED
YOU WAS IT EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY -- OR THAT
THERE WOULD BE FORMAL LINES OF COMMUNICATION
REGARDING KEEPING THE CONSULTANTS SEPARATE.
YOU'VE EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT MR. WEDGWORTH WANTED,
WHICH HE HAS EXPLAINED TO ME. AND YOU HAVE
EXPLAINED TO ME WHY YOU FIND IT AN APPEALING
PROCEDURE/PROTOCOL FOR YOUR PURPOSES AND FOR
THE UNIVERSITY'S PURPOSES. BUT MY QUESTION WAS,
DID MR. EARL, OR ANY OTHER ATTORNEY OR CONSULTANT
ON BEHALF OF THAT FIRM OR THOSE CLIENTS, EXPLAIN
TO YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE A PROTOCOL OF THIS
TYPE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY SPECIFICS, EXCEPT FOR THE
FACT THAT I THINK FROM SEVERAL MEETINGS THAT WERE
HELD, I MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR IN TERMS OF MY AREAS
OF RESEARCH THAT THEY WERE OPEN TO PUBLIC FORUM.
AND I THINK THE ATTORNEYS, IN CERTAIN AREAS, FELT
THAT THEY NEEDED TO HAVE, I GUESS, ATTORNEY/CLIENT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 239
PRIVILEGE, AND SO THEREFORE THEY MADE A DECISION
EARLY ON TO GO A SEPARATE WAY, AND USE A DIFFERENT
SET OF CONSULTANTS TO DO SOME TYPES OF WORK. AND
SINCE MY -- ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WENT TO THE EPD,
SINCE MY WORK WAS GOING TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
ANYWAYS, THEY COULD USE THAT WORK AND THEN USE --
UTILIZE MY EXPERTISE TO HELP THEM SIMPLY SELECT
OTHER PEOPLE, AND TO REVIEW DOCUMENTS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- SO, I'M SURE -- I MEAN, QUITE SURE THAT BY
UTILIZING THAT STRATEGY, ESSENTIALLY, THAT IT
KEPT ME SOMEWHAT IN THE DARK AS TO WHAT THEY WERE
DOING, WHICH AT TIMES, YOU KNOW, FOR THEM, I
SUPPOSE, WAS A BENEFIT.
Q. OKAY. SO, THESE WERE MEETINGS HELD IN 188, 189,
WHERE THIS SEPARATION OF SOME CONSULTANTS TO DO
SOME TASKS, AND THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, AND YOU
AND YOUR PEOPLE TO DO OTHER TASKS WAS DISCUSSED,
AND THE INTERFACE BETWEEN THE TWO?
A. WELL, THEY WEREN'T DISCUSSED WITH MY STAFF. I
MEAN, BASICALLY, THEY DISCUSSED IT WITH ME. MY
STAFF HAS ALWAYS BEEN KEPT ABSOLUTELY -- THEY HAVE
NOT BEEN INVOLVED VERY MUCH WITH THAT.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY "VERY MUCH," WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 240
A. THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED MEETINGS. THE EXCEPTION TO
THAT, I THINK, MAY BE DR. RADER, WHO MAY HAVE
ATTENDED A MEETING OR TWO. BUT DR. QUALLS AND MY
STUDENTS AND DR. CRAFT, AND BOB JOHNSON, OTHER
THAN JUST, SAY, MAYBE AN OCCASIONAL MEETING OR A
LUNCH OR SOMETHING, THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED FORMAL
MEETINGS, AND THAT WAS THE WAY -- WE HAVE HAD
SOME -- WE HAVE HAD -- THEY'VE HAD SOME CONTACT
WHEN, IN FACT, THEY WOULD BE OUT IN THE FIELD --
AS WE'VE HAD WITH ALMOST ANYONE -- THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, THE CO-OP, THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. ALL SORTS OF VISITORS COME
TO OUR SITE AND ASK CAN WE GO ALONG ON A BOAT RIDE
AND SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, OR CAN WE TAKE -- CAN
YOU TAKE US OUT IN THE FIELD. AND SO WE'VE HAD A
HOST OF PEOPLE, EPD PEOPLE, WHO ON SOME REGULAR
BASIS -- WE JUST DON'T -- WE'RE NOT A TOUR OUTFIT,
SO WE BASICALLY KEEP THAT A -- SO, I'M SAYING THEY
MAY HAVE BEEN OUT IN THE FIELD WITH THEM FOR AN
AFTERNOON WHEN THEY WERE DOING SOME WORK.
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND THE PERSON, DR. RICHARDSON, WHO
HAS -- YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO NAME AT
THAT ONE MEETING. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT YOU HAD
RECOMMENDED?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 241
A. ARE WE BACK TO---
Q. YEAH, WE'RE BACK TO -- I THINK THIS MAY BE THE
LAST QUESTION ON THAT ONE.
MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE RIGHT.
A. YES, I BELIEVE SO.
Q. OH. OF THE EXPERTS THAT THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE AND/OR THE CO-OP ARE USING IN THIS MATTER,
I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHICH OF THEM YOU HAVE
RECOMMENDED TO THEM.
A. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL OF THE EXPERTS THEY ARE
USING, SO.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET ME READ THEM TO YOU.
A. I THINK---
Q. I'LL JUST READ THEM---
A. ALL RIGHT.
Q. --- IT WON'T TAKE THAT LONG. WE'LL GO THROUGH THE
LEAGUE'S LIST FIRST, AND THEN WE'LL GO THROUGH THE
CO-OP'S LIST.
A. OKAY.
Q. DO YOU RECALL WHY YOU RECOMMENDED THE SECRET
EXPERT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. DO I RECALL WHY?
Q. YES, UH-HUH (YES).
A. YES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 242
Q. WHY?
MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER IT.
MS. PONZOLI: BASED ON THAT WOULD
REVEAL SOME STRATEGY OF THE LEAGUE?
MR. BURGESS: YES. THIS IN RESPONSE
TO MY QUESTION. YOU'VE GOT IT.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. POLOPOLUS, DID YOU RECOMMEND
DR. POLOPOLUS? I'M JUST GOING TO GIVE THEIR
NAMES, AND YOU CAN TELL ME YES OR NO.
A. I'D LIKE TO -- DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS ONE?
LOOKING AT IT AT THE SAME TIME, IT WOULD HELP ME
WITH THAT.
Q. NO, I HAVE A SINGLE COPY. I DON'T KNOW.
MS. PONZOLI: DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE A
LIST OF THE LEAGUE'S EXPERT WITNESSES AND
THE CO-OP'S EXPERT WITNESSES?
MR. KILLINGER: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM
I CAN GO GET IT.
MR. GREEN: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM.
A. DOES SOMEONE NEED ONE?
MS. PONZOLI: WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT --
DO YOU MIND GETTING YOURS AND I'LL JUST
START CALLING THEM OUT, THEN, UNTIL YOU GET
HERE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 243
WITNESS: THIS SOMETIMES HELPS ME.
MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU MIND IF WE DO THAT?
DO YOU WANT US TO WAIT FOR YOU, LEE?
MR. KILLINGER: YEAH, IT'LL JUST BE A
BRIEF SECOND.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
(MR. KILLINGER LEAVES THE ROOM
BRIEFLY TO GO GET A DOCUMENT.)
MS. PONZOLI: YOU CAN START LOOKING SO
THAT IT'LL GO FASTER.
WITNESS: NOW, THE QUESTION IS, WHICH
ONES---
MS. PONZOLI: I'M GOING TO WANT TO KNOW
WHICH OF THESE PEOPLE YOU RECOMMENDED.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
MR. KILLINGER: IS THAT THE RIGHT DATE
ON THERE?
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE
RIGHT ONE.
MR. KILLINGER: IT MAY NOT BE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 244
MS. PONZOLI: IT'S THE PRELIMINARY
DISCLOSURE. THERE'S ABOUT THREE OF THEM,
LEE.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, WE CAN -- CAN WE STAND
TOGETHER AND JUST GO OVER THEM PRETTY RAPIDLY,
DR. RICHARDSON; WOULD THAT WORK FOR YOU?
A. DO YOU HAVE A LIST YOURSELF NOW, OR NO?
Q. UH-HUH (YES). WELL, NO, I DON'T HAVE A LIST, I'LL
JUST STAND---
A. OH, OKAY. YOU WANT TO---
Q. YOU KNOW, I'LL JUST COVER---
A. --- OKAY. YOU WANT TO LOOK OVER MY SHOULDER HERE.
OKAY.
I'LL LOOK OVER YOUR SHOULDER, SURE, WE'LL JUST
MOVE RIGHT THROUGH THIS, BECAUSE I CAN'T IMAGE YOU
RECOMMENDED ALL THESE PEOPLE, YEAH.
DR. RICHARDSON, MY QUESTION IS, IS WHICH OF
THESE EXPERTS DID YOU RECOMMEND TO THE LEAGUE, AND
I'LL JUST CALL OUT THE NAME AND YOU CAN SAY YES OR
NO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 245
A. OKAY.
Q. DR. LEO POLOPOLUS?
A. NO.
Q. DR. JAMES RICHARDSON?
A. NO.
Q. DR. JOHN DAVIS?
A. NO.
Q. DR. MICHAEL DENNIS?
A. NO.
Q. DOC -- NO -- MR. HOWELL?
A. NO.
Q. MR. LARSON?
A. NO.
Q. DR. PATRICK?
A. I MENTIONED HIS NAME.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU -- YOU WERE THE ONE WHO
INTRODUCED DR. PATRICK, OR YOU JUST MENTIONED HIS
NAME?
A. WELL, THEY'VE ASKED -- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, I
HAVE BEEN ASKED FROM TIME TO TIME CERTAIN PEOPLE,
AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY CONTACTED THEM FIRST, I
DON'T KNOW. I CAN ONLY SAY WHETHER I RECOMMENDED
THEM OR NOT.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. PATRICK FOR?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 246
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
HE NEVER SAID HE RECOMMENDED HIM FOR
ANYTHING.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT DID YOU MENTION DR. PATRICK
FOR---
A. I SAID---
Q. --- DR. RICHARDSON?
A. --- I SAID HE WAS ONE OF THE LEADING WETLANDS SOIL
SCIENTISTS IN THE COUNTRY IN BIOGEOCHEMICAL
CYCLING.
Q. OKAY. IS HE BEING USED FOR THOSE PURPOSES, TO
YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. I ONLY KNOW IN GENERAL TERMS OF WHAT HE'S DOING.
Q. WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE DR. PATRICK IS DOING?
A. SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THAT I'M DOING. IN
GENERAL, HE'S REVIEWING DOCUMENTS FOR THE GROUP.
I THINK HE MADE A PRESENTATION ON -- AT THE SAGE
MEETING -- ON THE CALCIUM WORK HE WAS DOING.
AND HE ORIGINALLY DID THE CESIUM 137 WORK FOR
A. DR. REDDY SINCE DR. REDDY CANNOT DO THAT WORK IN
HIS LABORATORY.
Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK DONE ANY MERCURY WORK, TO
YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IN THE EAA?
A. I SAW A PRESENTATION THAT HE GAVE, I BELIEVE, AT A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 247
MERCURY CONFERENCE IN FLORIDA WHERE HE PRESENTED
SOME DATA. AND I BELIEVE THAT DATA WAS TAKEN ON
SOME CROP SPECIES, AND I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN THE
EAA. SO, HE HAD -- HIS LABORATORY HAD ANALYZED
SOME MERCURY.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER COLLABORATED WITH DR. PATRICK ON ANY
MERCURY WORK?
A. NO, I HAVE NOT.
Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK EVER REVIEWED ANY MERCURY
WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE?
A. THAT'S HARD TO SAY.
Q. WELL, THAT YOU KNEW THAT HE WAS REVIEWING, NOT
THAT HE -- YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE AWARE
OF?
A. NOTHING HE'S EVER INFORMED ME.
Q. RIGHT. OR, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU SENT TO HIM FOR
REVIEW?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. IS TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS DR. PATRICK
DOING ANY FIELDWORK ON LIMESTONE DITCHES?
A. I THINK HE HAS A PROJECT THAT HE-S WORKING WITH,
I THINK, IN CONJUNCTION WITH ONE OF THE SUGAR
COMPANIES. I BELIEVE HE HAS A FIELD PROJECT THAT
HE'S WORKING ON.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 248
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT'S LOCATED?
A. I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE; I HAVE NOT SEEN IT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT'S BEEN GOING ON?
A. I'D SAY YOU'RE PROBABLY TALKING A YEAR MAYBE,
SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. IT COULD BE A
LITTLE LONGER; IT COULD BE A LITTLE SHORTER, BUT
THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION.
Q. SURE. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY RESULTS FROM THAT
FIELDWORK?
A. I DON'T THINK I'VE SEEN -- THERE MAY HAVE BEEN
SOME GENERAL COMMENTS MADE ABOUT IT, BUT I DON'T
THINK I'VE SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT. I DONFT -- TO
MY KNOWLEDGE, I HAVEN'T. I'M TRYING THINK. I'VE
NOT SEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN ON THAT.
MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, WE WOULDN'T
OBJECT TO YOU READING FROM THE LIST AND
PASSING BACK AND FORTH AND SITTING IN THE
SEAT THAT YOU BEGAN THE DEPOSITION FROM.
MS. PONZOLI: OH, I DON'T HAVE ANY
PROBLEM DOING IT THAT WAY, EITHER.
DR. RICHARDSON HAD WANTED TO READ FROM
THE LIST, MR. GREEN. IF YOU WOULD
RATHER I---
MR. GREEN: I UNDERSTAND.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 249
MS. PONZOLI: --- RETURN, I'LL BE HAPPY
TO.
MR. GREEN: I WOULD RATHER YOU RETURN,
THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
(BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT WERE THE GENERAL COMMENTS,
DR. RICHARDSON, THAT YOU REFERRED TO OF
DR. PATRICK OR ABOUT DR. PATRICK?
MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU LIFE TO GET
YOUR LIST, MR. GREEN, SO THAT WE WOULD BE
ABLE TO EACH HAVE ONE, OR WOULD YOU RATHER
YOUR WITNESS JUST ANSWER ME FROM, MY READING
OUT THE NAMES?
MR. GREEN: I THOUGHT HE HAD A COPY OF
THE LIST THERE?
MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S MY COPY.
MR. GREEN: OH.
MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
MR. GREEN: SURE, I'LL GET IT. GIVE ME
A. FIVE MINUTES.
WITNESS: ARE WE STILL ON THE RECORD, OR
ARE WE OFF THE RECORD?
MS. PONZOLI: NO, WE'RE OFF THE RECORD.
MR. BURGESS: WEFRE OFF THE RECORD.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 250
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
WITNESS: OKAY, WHERE ARE WE? OH, WE
NEVER GOT -- WE'RE STILL -- I ASSUME WE'RE
STILL ON PATRICK.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. WE'RE UP TO
DR. PATRICK, THE COMMENTS, THE QUESTION -- THE
PENDING---
MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU READ BACK
THE PENDING QUESTION TO DR. RICHARDSON---
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE PENDING QUESTION?
A. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
Q. WHAT'S THE MATTER? WHAT WERE THE GENERAL
COMMENTS? DO YOU REMEMBER, DR. RICHARDSON, THE
QUESTION?
(THEREUPON, THE QUESTION APPEARING
ON PAGE 249, LINES 7-9, INCLUSIVE,
WAS REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
A. THE GENERAL COMMENTS WERE -- AS I SAID, I HAVE NOT
SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT THE PROJECT. MY
RECOLLECTION WAS THE PROJECT WAS -- WAS BEING PUT
INTO PLACE, OR WAS IN PLACE, AND THAT THEY WERE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 251
STARTING TO COLLECT DATA AT THIS ONE FIELD
LOCATION, I BELIEVE IT WAS, AND SOME GENERAL
THINGS, I THINK, ABOUT THE SIZE OF IT AND SO
FORTH.
Q. WAS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT IT WAS BEING
SUCCESSFUL OR NOT?
A. I THINK THERE WAS SOME OPTIMISM, YES, THAT IT WAS
SUCCESSFUL.
Q. IS THIS ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES? REMEMBER, I KEPT
TRYING TO GET YOU TO TELL ME WHAT ALTERNATIVES YOU
WERE IN FAVOR OF?
A. I THINK THE USE OF LIMESTONE OR CALCIUM WAS
MENTIONED AS A POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE, NOT THE
SPECIFIC RESEARCH PROJECT. I THINK I WOULD HAVE
RECOMMENDED RESEARCH BE DONE ON THIS TYPE OF TOPIC
FOR SURE. BUT I CAN'T SAY THAT I SPECIFICALLY
MENTIONED THE EXACT APPROACH THEY'RE USING, BUT IT
WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I ASSUM@E.
Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT ENDORSING THIS PARTICULAR
ALTERNATIVE AT THIS TIME?
A. NO, NOT AS -- I'M ENDORSING THE IDEA OF DOING
AND TRYING AS MANY OF THESE TECHNIQUES AS
POSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH AS GOOD A SOLUTION AS
POSSIBLE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 252
Q. IS THIS FIELD STUDY, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS IT A
FIELD APPLICATION OF LABORATORY WORK THAT
DR. PATRICK HAS DONE?
A. IT MAY VERY WELL BE AN EXTENSION OF WHAT HE
PRESENTED AS SOME LABORATORY WORK THAT HE HAD
DONE. THAT WOULD BE THE WAY THAT I WOULD ASSESS
THAT.
Q. OKAY. DR. RADER IS THE NEXT PERSON ON MY LIST.
DID YOU RECOMMEND THAT DR. RADER BE INCLUDED AMONG
THEIR TESTIFYING WITNESSES?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I DID
OR DIDN'T. I THINK IN TERMS---
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION BEFORE HE ANSWERS IT.
MS. PONZOLI: WHAT WAS WRONG WITH
THE FORM?
MR. BURGESS: THAT HE SOMEHOW OBJECTED
AS TO WHO -- THAT HE SOMEHOW RECOMMENDED AS
TO WHO SHOULD TESTIFY IN THIS CASE.
A. WITNESS: SO, THE QUESTION IS, DID I
RECOMMEND HIM?
MS. PONZOLI: YES, SIR.
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM, IF
THAT'S THE QUESTION.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 253
A. AS AN EXPERT, I THINK I MAY HAVE BEEN ASKED
WHETHER DR. RADER -- WAS IT MY OPINION WHETHER
DR. RADER -- I GUESS -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'D
SAY -- HIS WORK IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA WAS. YOU
KNOW, A LARGE -- WAS IT A LARGE DATABASE, HOW IT
WAS DONE, WHETHER HE WAS AN EXPERT IN THAT
PARTICULAR AREA; AND I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT HE
WOULD BE.
Q. ARE YOU INDICATING THAT THE ATTORNEYS SOLICITED
THE USE OF DR. RADER FROM YOU, IS THAT YOUR
TESTIMONY?
A. I THINK THEY -- NO, I'M NOT SURE -- I CAN'T
REMEMBER THE EXACT WAY IN WHICH THIS WAS DONE,
WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT -- AND I'M JUST TRYING
TO THINK OF HOW THAT WAS DONE. I THINK THEY
ACTUALLY WENT TO DR. RADER AND ASKED WHETHER HE
WOULD BE WILLING TO BE AN EXPERT IN THIS
PARTICULAR AREA.
OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, DID YOU
EVER SIT AND HELP PUT THE BIG PICTURE TOGETHER,
AND FIGURE OUT WHAT KINDS OF EXPERTS WERE NEEDED,
AND REBUTTAL EXPERTS, EXPERTS THAT HAD BEEN LISTED
BY OTHER PARTIES, DID YOU EVER PERFORM---
A. NO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 254
Q. --- THAT FUNCTION?
A. NO.
Q. HOW DID YOU COME ABOUT RECOMMENDING EXPERTS TO THE
ATTORNEYS?
A. WELL, ACTUALLY, I DID NOT GO IN WITH A PERCEIVED
IDEA OF RECOMMENDING EXPERTS. WHAT HAPPENS IS,
WHEN I WOULD MAKE PRESENTATIONS FROM TIME TO TIME,
THE WAY IT NORMALLY WOULD OCCUR IS PEOPLE WOULD
SAY WHAT DO I PERCEIVE AS AN AREA; WHAT IS AN AREA
OF INTEREST; WHAT IS AN AREA OF UNKNOWN; WHAT IS
AN AREA OF A POTENTIAL PROBLEM; WHAT IS -- AND AS
I WOULD REVIEW DOCUMENTS, WHAT IS AN AREA -- IN
SOME CASES, WHO MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE. LIKE I
MENTIONED THE OTHER DAY, BMPIS, WHO MIGHT BE
APPROPRIATE. AND I THINK -- WHEN I TALKED TO
THEM, I SAID IT WOULD BE MY RECOMMENDATION THAT
BMP'S WOULD BE LOOKED AT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. AND
THEY -- OF COURSE, THEN THEIR NEXT QUESTION IS, IF
THAT'S THE CASE, WHO WOULD DO THIS; AND I GAVE
A. THEM SOME NAMES. AND I WOULD QUITE OFTEN GIVE
THEM A LIST OF NAMES. AND THEY WOULD SELECT FROM
THAT LIST OF NAMES. QUITE OFTEN, THAT WAS A
VERBAL LIST. SOMETIMES IT WAS ONE NAME, SOMETIMES
IT WAS A LIST OF NAMES. BUT AFTER THEY WERE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 255
SELECTED, SOMETIMES I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THEY HAD
SELECTED. IN FACT, SOME OF THESE, THIS IS THE
FIRST TIME I'VE SEEN ACTUALLY A FULL, COMPLETE
LIST.
Q. RIGHT. HAS THIS BEEN SORT OF AN ITERATIVE PROCESS
SINCE 1988, 1989, WHERE YOU HAVE REVIEWED
DOCUMENTS AND MADE RECOMMENDATIONS OVER TIME?
A. NO. IN THE BEGINNING, AS I SAID, WHEN WE STARTED
THIS, I DON'T -- I DON'T BELIEVE THE CASE HAD EVEN
BEEN FILED.
Q. WELL, IT WAS FILED NOT TOO LONG AFTER---
A. NOT TOO LONG AFTER THAT.
Q. --- YOUR EARLY DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. WEDGWORTH.
A. BUT EARLY ON, I DID NOT -- I THINK, AS I SAID
BEFORE, WHAT HAPPENED IN SOME OF THOSE EARLY
MEETINGS, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO
BE WORKING PRIMARILY AS A CONSULTANT ON THE
LITIGATION CASE. I WAS NOT DOING THE: -- AND THAT
WAS NOT MY ROLE, AND I HAD MY RESEARCH TO DO. I
HAD TOO MUCH TO DO AS IT WAS. SO, FROM TIME TO
TIME, I BASICALLY WOULD MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS, AS I
SAID, FROM THESE PRESENTATIONS. IT WASN'T -- IT
WASN'T A FORMALIZED PROCESS; THEY WERE MORE
SERENDIPITY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 256
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DO YOU RECALL IS THE FIRST TIME
THAT YOU MADE THESE TYPES OF RECOMMENDATIONS, WHAT
YEAR?
A. PROBABLY -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN LATE f8@), '90,
SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. I CAN'T SAY ONE
MONTH OR ANOTHER. IT'S HARD TO SAY. AS I SAID,
THERE WAS NO FORMAL -- THERE WAS NO FORMAL, YOU
KNOW, THERE WAS NO FORMAL MEETING.
Q. YOU DIDN'T MEET TWICE A YEAR TO GO THROUGH THIS
PROCESS---
A. NO.
Q. --- IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
A. NO. I WOULD MEET WITH EQC, OR I WOULD MEET
WITH -- PRESENTATIONS THAT I WOULD MAKE, AND
THEN SOMEONE WOULD ASK, BY THE WAY, WHAT DO YOU
THINK ABOUT THIS, OR, OH, WE HADN'T REALIZED
ABOUT THAT.
Q. DID THE EQC AND/OR ANY OF THESE OTHER COMMITTEES
MEET MAYBE ONCE A YEAR, AT LEAST?
A. OH, I THINK THEY MEET SEVERAL -- WELL,, I THINK
THEY MEET -- I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT SURE HOW OFTEN
THEY MEET. THEY MAYBE MEET ONCE A MONTH, ONCE
EVERY OTHER MONTH, I'M NOT SURE. BUT I DID NOT
ATTEND VERY MANY OF THOSE MEETINGS. I WOULD ONLY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 257
BE ASKED TO ATTEND -- MAKE A PRESENTATION MAYBE
TWICE A YEAR. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE.
IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THAT MUCH. I CAN'T REMEMBER
THE -- I DIDN'T REALLY KEEP A CLOSE PRACK.
USUALLY I'D BE IN THE FIELD WORKING AND THEY WOULD
SAY, COULD YOU COME BY ON THURSDAY AFTERNOON, AND
THEY WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, A MEETING GOING ON, AND
THEN I WOULD SIT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY
FINISHED THEIR MEETING, AND THEN I WOULD COME FOR
MY HOUR OR WHATEVER THE PRESENTATION---
Q. SURE. SURE.
A. --- AND THEN THEY WOULD ASK ME TO LEAVE AGAIN,
SINCE THEY WERE DISCUSSING.
Q. SURE. AND WHO WOULD NORMALLY ATTEND THE EQC
MEETINGS?
A. THE EQC BOARD, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL IT.
Q. BUT WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?
A. ED BARBER; BOB BUKER; GEORGE WEDGWORTH, IN THE
BEGINNING; FANJUL---
Q. WHICH ONE?
A. ALEX. SOME PEOPLE -- BILL TARR; PHII, PARSONS;
OCCASIONALLY BILL EARL. THERE ARE OTHER
REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE LEAGUE, SOME OF THE
SMALLER GROWERS, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 258
Q. MR. STEIN, FRITZ STEIN?
A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN AT SOME OF THE EARLY MEETINGS.
I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT ANY RECENT MEETINGS THAT I
HAVE BEEN TO, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN TO ANY OF THOSE
MEETINGS IN, GOSH, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHEN.
Q. MR. BEARDSLEY?
A. MR. BEARDSLEY.
Q. RIGHT.
A. I DON'T KNOW MR. BEARDSLEY.
Q. MR. HUNDLEY?
A. HUNDLEY. THE NAME SOUNDS FAMILIAR, BUT I DON'T
KNOW. THERE ARE SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS WHO SIT ON
THAT COMMITTEE WHO SAY ALMOST NOTHING. SO, I
DON'T---
Q. MR. SCHLECHTER?
A. THAT NAME -- I MEAN, THAT NAME DOESN'T RING A
BELL, BUT---
Q. OKAY. WHAT DOES EQC STAND FOR?
A. I BELIEVE IT'S THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY
CONTROL, OR ENVIRONMENTAL SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
Q. COMMITTEE?
A. COMMITTEE.
Q. AND WHAT'S THE PURPOSE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 259
A. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PURPOSE OF THAT
MEETING IS -- AS IT WAS EXPLAINED TO ME BY GEORGE
WEDGWORTH, WHICH I BELIEVE HE FOUNDED IT -- WAS TO
MEET WITH THE PRINCIPALS OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVES
TO TRY TO PREDETERMINE PENDING ENVIRONMENTAL AREAS
OF CONCERN; TO TRY TO COME UP WITH THE
RECOMMENDATIONS; TO TRY TO GATHER INFORMATION SO
THAT THEY MAY BE ABLE TO RECTIFY PROBLEMS THAT MAY
OCCUR. I WAS TOLD, FOR EXAMPLE, THAI' SOME OF THE
EARLY WORK THEY HAD WORKED ON WAS AIR QUALITY IN
ONE OF THE AREAS. I'VE NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT,
BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY -- APPARENTLY ONE OF THE
FIRST PROJECTS THEY WORKED ON.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID MR. GREEN EVER ATTEND ANY OF
THESE MEETINGS, OR LAWYERS ATTEND ANY OF THESE
MEETINGS?
A. WELL, I THINK I SAID BILL EARL WAS AT---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- SOME OF THESE MEETINGS.
Q. RIGHT.
A. RICK BURGESS WAS AT SOME OF THESE MEETINGS.
BILL TARR.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. I DON'T REMEMBER IF BILL GREEN ATTENDED. HE MAY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 260
HAVE ATTENDED ONE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE DID
OR NOT. AS YOU KNOW, THE CO-OP IS NOT A MEMBER OF
THE LEAGUE AT THE MOMENT, SO HE MAY NOT BE INVITED
TO THOSE MEETINGS. I'M NOT PRIVY TO WHO GETS
INVITED AND WHO DOESNFT.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU SAY YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE EQC
WAS TO PREDETERMINE -- WHAT -- ENVIRONMENTAL
ISSUES OR THE -- NOW, THIS IS THE LEAGUE, THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE---
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. --- IT'S A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. RIGHT. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. GATHER INFORMATION, RECTIFY PROBLEMS.
WHAT -- IF IT WAS AN INFORMATION GATHERING,
PROBLEM RECTIFYING, FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE, WHY
THIS BUSINESS OF SEPARATING OUT WHO COULD ATTEND
THE MEETING; ONE PERSON COULD COME III AT A TIME;
HOW DID THAT COME TO BE?
A. WELL, I'M, AGAIN, NOT PRIVY TO ALL OF THAT, BUT IT
IS MY UNDERSTANDING -- I WAS TOLD NOT TO BE
INSULTED, THAT MANY PEOPLE WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THE
ROOM AT VARIOUS TIMES. AND PART OF THAT HAD TO
DO, I THINK, WHEN INDIVIDUAL CONSULTANTS WERE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 261
BEING -- WERE PRESENTING INFORMATION. PART OF IT
HAD TO DO WHEN THEY WOULD GO INTO, I THINK, SOME
EXECUTIVE SESSION ON FUNDING, WHICH MOST
ORGANIZATIONS DO. I BELIEVE---
Q. THE EQC HAD FUNDING RESPONSIBILITIES?
A. WELL, I THINK THEY HAVE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR
NOT THEY WILL FUND. THEY GET REVIEWS ON
MATERIALS, PROPOSALS, AND I THINK THEY HAVE TO
MAKE INTERNAL DECISIONS, LIKE ANY ORGANIZATION,
AND I BELIEVE WHEN THEY MAKE THOSE DECISIONS,
THEY DO THAT -- AS I SAID, I'VE NEVER BEEN IN
THERE WHEN THEY'VE DONE THAT, BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD
THAT AS AN EXECUTIVE SESSION THEY BASICALLY DO
THAT.
Q. RIGHT. IS IT THE EQC THAT FUNDS THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER, WHEN THEY WERE FIRST FUNDED? WHEN THEY
DID---
A. WELL, THE LEAGUE---
Q. --- THEIR FIRST---
A. --- THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- FUNDED IT.
Q. BUT WAS IT THE EQC THAT WOULD APPROVE YOUR FIRST
PROPOSAL, AND FUND---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 262
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. --- YOUR FIRST YEAR'S WORK?
A. I BELIEVE SO. THE PILOT PROJECT, I BELIEVE---
Q. THE PILOT PROJECT, OKAY.
A. --- WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED THROUGH THE EQC
COMMITTEE.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU PRESENT IT TO THE EQC, AS YOU
RECALL?
A. YES, I -- WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, I MADE: AN ORAL
PRESENTATION IN MY FIRST MEETING WITH SEVERAL
MEMBERS, AND THEN -- THAT'S SO LONG AGO, I'M
TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK I MADE A FORMAL ORAL
PRESENTATION, AND, OF COURSE, A WRITTEN -- THEY
HAD WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I HAD ASKED YOU TO BRING ME THAT FIRST
PROPOSAL. WERE YOU ABLE TO LOCATE ONE,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I WAS BARELY ABLE TO GET MY CV. I HAVE LISA
LOOKING TO FIND IT.
Q. I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. AND
JANE RAIKES, ARE WE STILL TRACKING THAT ONE
DOWN?
A. I AM NOW TRYING TO GET THAT FOR YOU, ALSO.
Q. THANK YOU.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 263
A. I WILL DO MY BEST.
Q. DOES THE EQC, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE -- DC) THEY
ACTUALLY FUND DIRECTLY FROM THAT COMMITTEE, IF --
LIKE, SUCH AS YOUR PILOT PROJECT? WOULD THEY
ACTUALLY FUND DIRECTLY THROUGH THAT ('OMMITTEE,
OR WOULD IT BE FUNDED THROUGH THE ENTIRE FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT INTERNALLY WORKS, HOW THEY
DO THAT. I DO KNOW IT'S A RECOMMENDING BODY,
AND IT -- OBVIOUSLY SOME OF THE PRIN(,IPLES
INVOLVED.
Q. OKAY. AND WHO TOLD YOU NOT TO BE INSULTED THAT
YOU WERE BEING EXCLUDED FROM CERTAIN PORTIONS OF
THE MEETINGS?
A. OH, I THINK THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE. PEOPLE WHO WERE
ALSO STANDING IN THE HALLWAY; PEOPLE WHO WERE
COMING AND GOING HAVE BEEN TOLD AT VARIOUS TIMES,
DON'T BE INSULTED, MANY PEOPLE ARE ASKED TO LEAVE.
SOME ARE NOT ASKED TO RETURN.
Q. DO YOU RECALL WHO ANY OF THESE OTHER PEOPLE
STANDING OUT IN THE HALL WAITING WERE?
A. NOT REALLY, IT WAS SO LONG AGO. BUT, I MEAN---
Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS SORT OF DIRECTLY,
DR. RICHARDSON, JUST---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 264
MR. BURGESS: I HOPE ALL YOUR
QUESTIONS ARE DIRECT.
MS. PONZOLI: I THINK THEY ARE; I
TRY TO BE. IT'S ONE OF MY FAULTS.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RADER IS A PAIL) CONSULTANT
FOR ENVIRONMENTAL PERMITTING SERVICES, I GUESS.
HE RECEIVES A MONTHLY STIPEND OR SALARY OR
WHATEVER FOR SEVERAL YEARS. DO YOU ALSO RECEIVE A
TYPE OF ONGOING CONSULTANT FEE?
A. FROM?
Q. ANY ENTITY.
A. I MEAN, IT'S---
Q. DO YOU RECEIVE ONE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE -- I WOULD ASSUME WOULD BE MY MORE LIKELY
GUESS?
A. I AM PAID FOR MY SERVICES AS RENDEREE) ON A TASK
BASIS, OR ON AN HOURLY BASIS.
Q. BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. MANY PEOPLE. I DO CONSULTING NOT ONLY FOR THE
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, BUT FOR---
Q. SURE.
A. --- THE EPA, AND THE GOVERNMENT---
Q. SURE, I UNDERSTAND THAT, THAT YOU PROBABLY DO
CONSULTING WORK FOR MANY DIFFERENT ENTITIES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 265
A. --- THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.
Q. RIGHT. WHEN I GO THROUGH YOUR CV, I'LL GO THROUGH
THOSE OTHERS. BUT RIGHT NOW I'M REALLY FOCUSING
ON THE EVERGLADES. AND I WOULD LIKE TO FOCUS ON,
DOES THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE PAY YOU, ON AN
HOURLY OR A DAILY BASIS, A CONSULTING FEE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT IS THAT?
A. WELL, IT DEPENDS, AGAIN, ON THE TASK. I COULD BE
PAID BY THE HOUR.
Q. RIGHT. AND THAT WOULD BE HOW MUCH PER HOUR?
A. IT DEPENDS ON THE JOB. IT RANGES FROM A HUNDRED
TO A HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS ($100.00 TO
$150.00) AN HOUR FOR SCIENTIFIC WORK.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN ARE YOU ALSO PAID ON A DAILY BASIS
SOME CERTAIN TIMES?
A. OCCASIONALLY. OCCASIONALLY, IT'S DONE --
DEPENDING ON HOW I DO CONSULTANCY WORK. CERTAIN
TASKS SOMETIMES REQUIRE ONLY A COUPLE OF HOURS,
BUT I HAVE TO LEAVE, YOU KNOW, AT SIX IN THE
MORNING, AND DON'T GET HOME TILL TEN AT NIGHT,
AND THERE MAY ONLY BE TWO HOURS OF ACTUAL WORK,
BUT -- SO, I DO THAT, MAKE MORE ON A DAILY BASIS
BECAUSE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 266
Q. SURE.
A. ---IT WOULD NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO DO IT OTHERWISE,
SO.
Q. AND WHAT WOULD THE DAILY FEE BE?
A. I GENERALLY CHARGE SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD
OF -- IT DEPENDS -- A THOUSAND TO TWO THOUSAND A
DAY.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE
THOUSAND TO TWO THOUSAND?
A. WHETHER I HAVE TO DO WEEKENDS; WHETHER I HAVE TO
DO LEGAL TESTIFYING, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THINGS LIKE
THAT.
Q. OKAY. WHEN WERE YOU FIRST -- WHEN DID YOU FIRST
ENTER THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FLORIDA SUGAR
CANE LEAGUE? IN WHICH YEAR?
A. PROBABLY '89, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW,
DR. RICHARDSON, IS FOR THE YEARS THAT YOU HAVE
WORKED ON THESE MATTERS, I WOULD LIKE THE AMOUNT
THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED FOR THIS CONSULTANT FEE
FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IN 1989, YOU
RECEIVED HOW MUCH TOTAL CONSULTANT FEE?
A. I DON'T HAVE IT BROKEN DOWN BY INDIVIDUAL
COMPANIES, SO I REALLY WOULDN'T -- I REALLY DON'T
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 267
KNOW.
Q. YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF YOU RECEIVED TEN THOUSAND OR
TWENTY THOUSAND---
A. IN '89?
Q. --- SIXTY THOUSAND, EIGHTY THOUSAND, A HUNDRED
THOUSAND?
A. WELL, I'M TRYING TO THINK. I REALLY DONFT KNOW.
I HAVE NOT LOOKED AT MY TAX RECORDS FOR 189, SO
I COULDNFT REALLY TELL YOU. I COULD SAY IT
VARIES FROM QUARTER TO QUARTER; AND IT VARIES FROM
TIME TO TIME, SO I REALLY DON'T KNOW, IN ALL
HONESTY.
WELL, I'M REALLY ENTITLED TO KNOW. CAN YOU CHECK
THOSE RECORDS TONIGHT AND ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS
TOMORROW, YOUR TAX RETURNS?
MR. BURGESS: I DONFT THINE HE HAS
AN OBLIGATION TO DO THAT, MS. PONZOLI.
MS. PONZOLI: OH, I THINK HE DOES,
MR. BURGESS; I THINK ABSOLUTELY I HAVE A
A. RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT HE HAS RECEIVED IN
CONSULTANT FEES.
MR. BURGESS: YOU CAN'T GIVE MY
WITNESSES HOMEWORK, MA'AM. YOU CANNOT
GIVE MY WITNESSES HOMEWORK.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 268
MS. PONZOLI: I CAN REQUIRE THAT
YOU TELL ME WHAT HE HAS BEEN PAID AS A
CONSULTANT---
MR. BURGESS: YOU CAN ASK HIM
QUESTIONS---
MS. PONZOLI: --- FOR THE FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
MR. BURGESS: --- AND HE CAN ANSWER
THOSE QUESTIONS, BUT YOU CAN'T ASK HIM TO
GO HOME AND DO HOMEWORK AND YOU KNOW IT.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, MR. BURGESS, WHAT
HE MADE -- YOU'RE GOING TO ASK EVERY ONE OF
MY PEOPLE, AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK YOURS.
THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT'S UNKNOWN. IT
ISN'T AN UNHEARD OF THING THAT PEOPLE ARE
PAID FOR THESE TASKS, SO.
MR. BURGESS: AND HE CAN ANSWER YOUR
QUESTIONS TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY--19
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. YOU'RE TELLING---
MR. BURGESS: --- WHICH HEFS TRYING
TO DO.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, IS IT CLOSER TO A HUNDRED
THOUSAND, DR. RICHARDSON, THAN TEN THOUSAND, FOR
589?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 269
A. WELL -- FOR 189?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. THE REASON I'M HESITATING, I CAN'T REMEMBER IN '89
EXACTLY, BECAUSE I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS '89
OR '90---
Q. WELL---
A. ---I DID -- BASICALLY, AS I SAID, I HAVE A NUMBER
OF CONSULTANCIES, I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY THE
AMOUNT---
Q. SURE.
A. --- SO, IF YOU SAY -- IF YOU GIVE ME THAT RANGE,
TEN TO A HUNDRED, IT'S PROBABLY CLOSER TO A
HUNDRED THAN TEN, BUT.
Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT 1990?
A. AGAIN, THE SAME THING.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK A HUNDRED IS PROBABLY A FAIR
APPROXIMATION?
A. NOT FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, NO. IT MAY BE FOR
SOME OF THOSE YEARS.
Q. IS IT LOW OR HIGH?
A. WHAT?
Q. THE HUNDRED.
A. I DON'T KNOW. I---
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 270
A. NO.
Q. ALL RIGHT. FOR 1991, IS IT THE SAME?
A. IT'S APPROXIMATELY IN THAT BALLPARK.
Q. THE SAME IN 192?
A. AGAIN, AS I SAID, I DONFT -- IT MAY BE IN THAT
RANGE OF TEN TO A HUNDRED.
Q. WELL, NO, WE HAD SAID, WAS IT CLOSER TO TEN OR
CLOSER TO A HUNDRED, AND YOU SAID IT WOULD
PROBABLY BE CLOSER TO A HUNDRED. SO, I'M ASSUMING
IT'S CLOSER TO A HUNDRED FOR EACH OF THOSE YEARS
SHORT OF YOUR MEMORY THAT IT WAS NOT.
A. RIGHT. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. AS I
SAID, IT VARIES FROM TIME TO TIME---
Q. SURE.
A. --- SO, IF---
Q. DO YOU RECALL OVER THE PERIOD FROM 189 TO THE
PRESENT WHAT YOUR CONSULTING FEES FOR THE FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WOULD APPROXIMATELY TOTAL?
A. NO.
Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF IT'S FORTY THOUSAND OR
FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND?
A. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE FOUR HUNDRED
THOUSAND.
Q. AND YOU DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE FORTY THOUSAND?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 271
A. NO.
Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE -- HAVE YOU ALREADY PREPARED
YOUR TAX RETURN FOR APRIL?
A. NO.
Q. HAVE YOU RECEIVED YOUR W-2'S BACK?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE RECEIVED YOUR FORMS BACK
FROM YOUR VARIOUS EMPLOYERS?
A. OH, THEY SELDOM -- THOSE SELDOM COME TILL
ALMOST -- SOME OF THOSE COME A MONTH BEFORE THE
DEADLINE. I HAVE FILED MY TAXES ON THE 15TH OF
APRIL FOR YEARS.
Q. OKAY. WELL, DR. RICHARDSON, WHETHER YOU ARE
COMPELLED TO DO HOMEWORK OR NOT, I THINK I WOULD
ENCOURAGE YOU TO PLEASE REVIEW YOUR RECORDS AND
GIVE ME AS ACCURATE AN ANSWER AS YOU CAN IN THE
FOLLOWING DAYS.
ALL RIGHT. YOU HAVE DONE THESE CONSULTANT
HOURS, DAYS, FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I
WOULD ASSUME THAT JUST AS DR. RADER HAS ALSO BEEN
PAID A SEPARATE SALARY FOR BEING AN EXPERT WITNESS
FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, THAT YOU ALSO,
IS THAT ACCURATE OR NOT?
MR. BURGESS: THAT YOU ALSO WHAT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 272
Q. ARE YOU ALSO PAID A SEPARATE FEE AS AN EXPERT
WITNESS, OR IS THAT BURIED INTO THIS CONSULTANCY
FEE? HE RECEIVES THREE SALARIES, DR. RICHARDSON.
HE RECEIVES HIS DUKE WETLAND SALARY, HE RECEIVES A
MONTHLY---
MR. BURGESS: IS THIS TESTIMONY;
WHAT IS THIS?
MS. PONZOLI: IT'S A QUESTION,
MR. BURGESS---
MR. BURGESS: OKAY. LET'S GET TO IT.
MS. PONZOLI: --- AND I'M NOT GETTING
ANSWERS.
Q. --- HE RECEIVES THREE SALARIES, AND I AM TRYING TO
DETERMINE IF YOU RECEIVE THREE SEPARATE SALARIES,
OR ONLY TWO---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. --- ONE THROUGH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER FOR THE
WORK THAT'S DONE ON THE GRANT FOR THE EPD, AND
FIRST FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND THEN
ONE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. DID I
CONFUSE YOU?
A. YEAH, YOU -- START OVER AGAIN.
Q. LET'S GO THROUGH YOUR SOURCES OF INCOME, THEN.
YOU GET INCOME AS AN EMPLOYEE OF DUKE AS A TENURED
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 273
PROFESSOR?
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. THAT'S HOW MUCH?
A. WELL---
MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK HE
NEEDS TO ANSWER THAT.
MS. PONZOLI: OH, I THINK HE DOES.
MR. BURGESS: I DON'T.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, ARE YOU INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT. IT'S UP TO HIM.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. GREEN: WELL, JUST AS A POINT OF
ORDER, WITHOUT AGREEING OR DISAGREEING WITH
ANYONE, I'D LIKE TO NOTE THAT MR. McCAUGHAN,
THE COUNSEL FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY, IS NOT
PRESENT, AND IT WOULD PROBABLY BE BEST TO
WAIT UNTIL HE IS TO ASK THESE QLJESTIONS,
BECAUSE TO THE EXTENT THAT SOME OF THIS
INFORMATION MAY BE PRIVILEGED, HE WOULD BE
THE ONE, AT LEAST IN PART, THAT WOULD BE
ENTITLED TO MAKE OBJECTIONS AS OPPOSED TO ME,
FOR EXAMPLE.
MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES). WELL, THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 274
DEPOSITION BEGAN AT NINE, AND IT'S NEARLY
TEN-THIRTY, AND MR. McCAUGHAN SAID THAT WE
COULD START WITHOUT HIM, MR. GREEN, AND I
HAVE BEEN ENORMOUSLY PATIENT WITH WAITING
FOR OTHER COUNSEL FOR MY DEPOSITIONS TO
BEGIN, SO.
MR. GREEN: I AGREE THAT YOU HAVE, BUT
I DON'T THINK THAT WE'VE BEEN IN THIS
CIRCUMSTANCE BEFORE IN THIS DEPOSITION, AND
IT IS SCHEDULED FOR UP TO FIVE DAYS, AND I
THINK OUT OF RESPECT FOR OTHER COUNSEL, THAT
IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO DELAY THIS UNTIL
HE'S PRESENT.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, THEN I'LL ASK
YOUR SALARY AS A TENURED PROFESSOR WHEN
MR. McCAUGHAN RETURNS IN DEFERENCE TO
MR. GREEN'S SENSITIVITY.
MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.
WITNESS: OKAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) BUT, I WOULD LIKE 9'0 GO ON TO
YOUR OTHER SOURCES OF INCOME. I WANT TO KNOW --
ALL RIGHT, SO YOU RECEIVE A TENURED FIROFESSORIS
SALARY, IS THAT RIGHT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 275
Q. OKAY. AND THEN THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER PROVIDES
YOU WITH -- DOES IT PROVIDE YOU WITH A SEPARATE
SALARY, OR DOES EACH GRANT THAT'S DONE UNDER THERE
PROVIDE YOU WITH A SALARY?
A. NO, YOU HAVE -- WE HAVE A SINGLE SALARY FROM THE
UNIVERSITY.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO, NOW, THE GRANT FROM THE EPD
WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH A SALARY, IS THAT RIGHT?
A. NO. NO. WHEN YOU'RE A PROFESSOR AT A UNIVERSITY,
YOU HAVE ONE SALARY.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND THE SALARY IS A BASE SALARY.
Q. RIGHT.
A. AND HOW YOU RECEIVE THAT SALARY -- IN OTHER WORDS,
IF I GET TEN BILLION DOLLARS ($10,000,000,000.00)
OF GRANTS---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.
Q. RIGHT.
A. I GET A BASE SALARY. OKAY. NOW, THE SOURCE OF
WHERE THE SALARIES COME FROM CAN VARY, BUT THAT'S
ALL YOU CAN GET.
ALL RIGHT. SO, WHATEVER YOUR BASE SALARY IS --
EVEN IF IT'S PROVIDED BY THE EPD -- THE UNIVERSITY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 276
JUST SORT OF GETS A FREE RIDE---
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE---
Q. --- IS THAT ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENS?
MR. BURGESS: --- OBJECT TO THE FORM.
A. NOT A FREE RIDE. I MEAN, BASICALLY, THIS IS A
STANDARD WAY UNIVERSITIES OPERATE. I'M NOT SURE
WHAT YOU MEAN BY FREE RIDE.
Q. WELL, IF -- WELL, I CAN GO THROUGH YOUR DOCUMENTS
WITH YOU AND SHOW YOU THAT THERE'S A SALARY
ALLOTTED TO YOU---
A. YES.
Q. --- IN FACT, I CAN GIVE YOU THAT NUMBER, IF THAT
WOULD BE HELPFUL TO THIS DISCUSSION, AND MAYBE
THAT WOULD SAVE US WAITING FOR MR. McCAUGHAN.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE AMOUNT I'M TALKING
ABOUT? IT'S FORTY-EIGHT THOUSAND, OR SOMETHING
LIKE THAT, I CAN'T REMEMBER.
WITNESS: COULD YOU JUST SHOW ME WHAT
YOU'RE REFERRING TO?
A. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. PROJECT DIRECTOR,
DR. RICHARDSON -- THIS IS THE 193 BUDGET FROM
DOCUMENT NUMBER ONE.
DO I HAVE THESE? IFLL PASS THEM OUT.
LET ME GIVE YOU ONE, DR. RICHARDSON, AND YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 277
CAN START LOOKING AT IT, AND SEE IF YOU CAN
IDENTIFY IT.
MR. GREEN: WILL THIS BE EXHIBIT ONE?
MR. REID: NO, IT'LL BE EXHIBIT THREE.
MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE RIGHT.
MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE RIGHT. NO, YOU'RE
RIGHT, MR. REID.
WITNESS: I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE
HERE.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY
THIS DOCUMENT?
A. THIS DOCUMENT?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. LET ME LOOK AT IT HERE.
Q. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
Q. WELL, JUST SO THIS WILL BE ORDERLY AND I WON'T
FORGET, DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS
DOCUMENT---
A. THIS---
Q. --- IT'S A COMPOSITE DOCUMENT.
A. WELL, I WAS GOING TO SAY -- BECAUSE THERE ARE A
LOT OF PIECES THAT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 278
I MEAN, YOU'RE SAYING A PIECE OF IT. AND THE
FIRST PIECE -- THE FIRST PIECE THAT I CAN
RECOGNIZE IS OBVIOUSLY A LETTER FROM APRIL 20,
'92, TO CHARLES HAAS. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE
REFERRING TO?
Q. NO, SIR. THIS IS -- I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I
BELIEVE THIS IS, AND THEN YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT YOU
CAN IDENTIFY AND WHAT YOU CAN'T. THESE ARE
DOCUMENTS THAT WERE PRODUCED TO THE UNITED STATES.
YOU WILL NOTICE AT THE BOTTOM THEY ARE BATES
NUMBERED, A SERIES FROM 0009422 THROUGH 0009439.
AND IT IS -- AT LEAST MY BELIEF AS I SIT HERE --
THAT THIS WAS A FILE FROM YOUR FILES, BECAUSE IT
WAS PRODUCED WITH YOUR DOCUMENTS TO THE UNITED
STATES AND BATES STAMPED.
NOW, IN ORDER FOR ME TO HAVE IT ATTACHED TO
THE RECORD, I NEED FOR YOU TO IDENTIFY IT, AND
THEN WE'RE GOING TO MARK IT AS A COMPOSITE
EXHIBIT. I GUESS WHAT WOULD BE USEFUL IS IF YOU
RECOGNIZE THE WHOLE FILE AS YOURS, IF YOU WOULD
JUST SIMPLY TELL US THAT, AND THEN WE CAN TALK
ABOUT THE VERY FEW DOCUMENTS I'M INTERESTED IN.
OTHERWISE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO IDENTIFY WHAT IS
AND WHAT ISN'T YOURS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 279
A. I UNDERSTAND. AND I'M TRYING TO LOOK AT IT. I
HAVEN'T SEEN THIS. THE REASON I'M SAYING THIS IS
THIS APPEARS TO BE ACTUALLY OUT OF MY
ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT'S FILE.
Q. RIGHT.
A. AND SO -- SHE KEEPS RECORDS -- SHE KEEPS THOSE
RECORDS FOR ME, SO I -- I AM NOT INTIMATELY
FAMILIAR WITH EVERY SINGLE FILE THAT SHE HAS, AND
IN WHAT ORDER. IN FACT, AS I TOLD YOU THIS
MORNING, SHE HAD TO FIND THE CURRICULUM VITAE.
IT APPEARS TO BE -- I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHICH
PARTICULAR FILE IT IS. IT APPEARS TO BE A FILE
THAT'S RELATED TO THE EPD. AND IF YOU'LL NOTICE,
LIKE THE FIRST LETTER, I DIDN'T EVEN SIGN IT; THAT
WAS SIGNED BY LISA PHELPS, AND THAT WAS SENT ON MY
BEHALF. SO, THAT -- AND THE SECOND ONE ARE SOME
HAND NOTES, THAT ARE NOT MINE. THE SAME WITH THE
THIRD, THE FOURTH; THOSE -- NONE OF THOSE ARE MY
NOTES. THE NEXT LETTER IS A LETTER THAT I SENT TO
ART KIRSTEIN. SO, I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS A EPD
FILE. I'D HAVE TO READ THE LETTERS IN DETAIL TO
SEE EXACTLY WHAT IT IS, BUT IT'S CORRESPONDENCE
BETWEEN MYSELF AND ART KIRSTEIN AND CHUCK HAAS FOR
THE EPD.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 280
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S MARK THIS
AS RICHARDSON COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER THREE.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 3 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHERE WE WERE
WAS I WAS TRYING TO GET AT THE VARIOUS SALARIES,
OR STIPENDS, OR WHATEVER THAT YOU RECEIVE---
A. OKAY.
Q. --- AND I SEE THAT THERE IS UNDER THE BUDGET FOR
'93, A TOTAL BUDGET OF NINE HUNDRED AND
TWENTY-THREE THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED AND
EIGHTY-SEVEN DOLLARS ($923,787.00). A PROJECT
DIRECTOR'S SALARY AND WAGE OF FORTY-SEVEN THOUSAND
NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE ($47,979.00).
A. CORRECT.
NOW, DO YOU RECEIVE THAT MONEY DR. RICHARDSON?
A. AS PART OF MY TOTAL UNIVERSITY SALARY, I RECEIVE
SOME PORTION OF THAT SALARY.
Q. YOU DON'T GET THE WHOLE FORTY-SEVEN NINE HUNDRED
AND SEVENTY-NINE?
A. IT'S VERY LIKELY THAT I WOULD NOT RECEIVE THE
WHOLE FORTY-SEVEN NINE SEVENTY-NINE, BUT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 281
REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I DID OR I DIDN'T, IF MY
BASE SALARY -- LETFS JUST SAY HYPOTHETICALLY --
WAS SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- I WOULD GET SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND FROM THE
UNIVERSITY.
Q. AND THEN THEY WOULD, LIKE, PRORATE YOUR VARIOUS
SALARIES AND WAGES FROM YOUR VARIOUS GRANTS TOWARD
THAT SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND---
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- OR WHAT?
A. CORRECT---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- THEY COULD DO THAT. BUT I -- MY BASE SALARY
FROM THE UNIVERSITY IS -- AND THAT IS ON A
NINE-MONTH BASIS, AND THAT IS PRIMARILY PAID BY
THE UNIVERSITY FOR DIRECTOR RESPONSIBILITIES,
FOR TEACHING, FOR GUIDANCE STUDENTS, FOR THE
NORMAL PROFESSORIAL ACTIVITIES.
AND THERE ARE AN ADDITIONAL AT DUKE
UNIVERSITY, THERE'S AN ADDITIONAL SINCE WE'RE
NOT PAID IN THE SUMMERTIME -- AN ADDITIONAL PERIOD
OF TIME WHICH WE'RE ALLOWED TO DO RESEARCH GRANTS
TO SUPPLEMENT OUR BASE SALARY. THIS IS WHAT PART
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 282
OF THIS WOULD COME FROM.
Q. WOULD THIS GO INTO YOUR SUMMER RESEARCH GRANT
SALARY, IS THAT THE WAY---
A. PART OF IT COULD---
Q. ---YOU THINK IT MIGHT WORK?
A. --- PART OF IT COULD. AND PART OF IT COULD-BE
BASED BACK TOWARDS MY BASE SALARY. I DON'T -- AND
THE REASON -- I'M NOT HESITATING -- THE REASON
THAT I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT IS BECAUSE IT
SHIFTS FROM SEMESTER TO SEMESTER DEPENDING UPON
THE UNIVERSITY'S ACCOUNTING, MY ACTIVITIES.
SO, AT ANY ONE PARTICULAR TIME IF YOU ASK
ME WHERE MY BASE SALARY COMES FROM, I COULDN'T
TELL YOU EXACTLY PENNY FOR PENNY WHERE IT COMES
FROM.
WELL, DESPITE WHERE YOUR BASE SALARY COMES FROM,
IF I HEAR YOU RIGHT, YOU'RE TELLING ME THE
NINE-MONTH SALARY CAN EXCEED THIS, FOR EXAMPLE,
SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND, IF THAT WERE YOU BASE
SALARY. IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. I'M NOT SURE I FOLLOWED YOU. REPEAT THAT,
PLEASE.
DR. RICHARDSON, I'M NOT MAKING THIS HARD; THIS
COULD BE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 283
A. I KNOW.
Q. --- VERY EASY.
A. I UNDERSTAND, BUT I'M JUST TRYING TO BE CLEAR.
Q. I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE UNIVERSITY REIMBURSES
YOU; I WANT To KNOW HOW MUCH THE EPD REIMBURSES
YOU FOR THE SERVICES THAT YOU PROVIDE; I WANT TO
KNOW HOW MUCH THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE
REIMBURSES YOU; I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE
COOPERATIVE AND/OR IF THE LEAGUE GIVES YOU A
SEPARATE ADDITIONAL SALARY. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT
I WANT TO KNOW.
A. OKAY. WELL, ASK THEM IN ORDER. I MEAN, I'VE TOLD
YOU I HAVE A BASE SALARY, AND I HAVE---
Q. AND YOU WON'T TELL -- AND COUNSEL BELIEVE I CANNOT
GET---
A. I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO WAIT FOR RALPH
McCAUGHAN TO APPEAR.
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU'RE EXPLAINING TO ME THAT THAT BASE
SALARY WORKS IN SOME FAIRLY ESOTERIC WAYS AT LEAST
A. TO LAYMEN WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF THE UNIVERSITY
SYSTEM?
A. BUT ITTS A VERY STANDARD WAY. I THINK IF YOU ASK
DR. KADLEC OR ANY OTHER PROFESSOR, IT'S A VERY
STANDARD PROCEDURE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 284
Q. OKAY.
A. --- FOR MOST UNIVERSITIES WHO ARE MAJOR RESEARCH
UNIVERSITIES. IT'S A VERY STANDARD PROCEDURE.
Q. OKAY.
A. SO, THERE'S NOTHING MAGIC ABOUT IT, BUT---
Q. I ACCEPT THAT. I ACCEPT THAT IT'S DONE THAT WAY.
I REALIZE THERE'S SOME WAY THEY DO THESE THINGS,
AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND. I GUESS IF YOU CAN
EXPLAIN IT TO ME -- IF YOU WERE ALLOWED TO GIVE
ME THE ACTUAL FIGURES, THAT WOULD PROBABLY HELP.
ALL RIGHT. MAYBE -- WAIT A MINUTE.
(THEREUPON, MS. PONZOLI
CONFERS WITH HER EXPERTS.)
(BY MS. PONZOLI) I HAVE BEEN ADVISED THAT I'M
GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME DOING THIS WITHOUT YOUR
BASE SALARY, BUT I'M GOING TO KEEP TRYING.
DO YOU RECEIVE BY THE END OF THE YEAR THIS
FORTY-SEVEN NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE
($47,979.00), ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, IN THE SUMMER
OR IT'S APPLIED TO YOUR BASE SALARY DURING THE
YEAR, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. WELL, THIS IS '93, SO I HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER I
WILL OR WILL NOT RECEIVE THIS.
Q. WAS IT SIMILAR IN '92, YOUR BASE SALARY? BECAUSE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 285
I CAN RECONSTRUCT IT FROM OTHER DOCUMENTS IF YOU
WANT ME TO.
A. WELL, IT GOES UP BY SOME PERCENTAGE, BUT
WHETHER---
Q. FIVE PERCENT (5%)?
A. I THINK IT'S FIVE PERCENT (5%) ---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q. OKAY. SO, IF WE TOOK FIVE PERCENT (5%) OFF OF
THIS, WE'D HAVE LAST YEAR'S---
A. NOT NECESSARILY, BECAUSE WHAT I DO IS -- ON THIS
PARTICULAR SALARY -- I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS
MORE DIFFICULT -- BUT WHAT I DO FOR THIS
PARTICULAR THING IS WE BASICALLY -- I HAVE A BASE
SALARY, AND I MAY GO IN AND, SAY, TAKE FIVE
PERCENT (5%) FROM THIS, CARRY THIS OVER, I NEED TO
COVER -- IN THE SALARIES AND WAGES COMPARTMENT,
AND THE WAY GRANTS WORK, I CAN TELL YOU, FOR
INSTANCE, THAT THE SALARIES THAT ARE LISTED THERE
FOR THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT EXACT. IN FACT, IN SOME
CASES, THEY'RE CONSIDERABLY HIGHER THAN THE TIME
THAT THEY HAVE SPENT ON THOSE, IT JUST DEPENDS.
SOME PEOPLE MAY BE GETTING MORE; SOME PEOPLE MAY
BE GETTING LESS OF THOSE SALARIES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 286
Q. IS WHAT YOUTRE TELLING ME IS THAT WITHIN THE
GRANT, YOU HAVE CERTAIN FREEDOM TO SHIFT THE FUNDS
AROUND, AND---
A. YES. AND, QUITE OFTEN, I WILL TAKE PORTIONS OF MY
SALARY AND GIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE, ESPECIALLY IF
THEY THREATEN TO LEAVE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GETTING
ENOUGH MONEY---
Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S JUST ASSUME -- LET'S ASSUME
THAT FOR PURPOSES OF---
A. --- OR HAVE A BETTER OFFER.
Q. --- OUR DISCUSSION THAT YOU HAVE NOT NEEDED TO
SHIFT FUNDS, OKAY, THAT YOU'VE LEFT THEM PRETTY
MUCH IN PLACE, THE BUDGET, YOU KNOW, IS FENCED,
AND WE'RE LEAVING THINGS AS THEY'VE BEEN STATED.
AND WE TAKE FIVE PERCENT (5%) OFF, AND THATFS
ROUGHLY---
A. THAT'S THE MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOCATED,
ROUGHLY, TOWARDS MY SALARY.
Q. WOULD YOU BY THE END OF '92 HAVE RECEIVED THAT,
EITHER IN YOUR SUMMER GRANT MONEY, OR AS APPLIED
TO YOUR BASE SALARY?
A. I WOULD HAVE RECEIVED A PORTION OF IT, BUT I
CANNOT TELL YOU THE PROPORTION, IN ALL HONESTY.
Q. OKAY. THE OTHER PORTION OF IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 287
SOME OTHER PART OF WHERE YOU SPENT THE GRANT
MONEY?
A. IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO SOME OTHER -- SOME OTHER
NEEDS. WE'VE HAD PRETTY EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH NEEDS
FOR OTHER PERSONNEL, FOR PEOPLE. I HIRE A LOT OF
STUDENT ASSISTANTS. SO, IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO
SOMEONE'S SALARY.
Q. OKAY. OKAY. IS IT FENCED AS TO SALARY, YOU CAN'T
MOVE SALARIES OUT OF SALARIES TO FIELDWORK OR
LABORATORY?
A. THIS PARTICULAR GRANT, IN ITS CONCEPTION -- WE
HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH VARIOUS ITERATIONS -- HAS
BEEN REASONABLY FLEXIBLE. THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE
BENEFITS OF THIS, IN THAT WE COULD---
Q. OKAY. OKAY.
A. ---WE COULD MOVE IT FROM SOME CATEGORIES TO
OTHERS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- BUT I TRY TO KEEP IT WITHIN A CERTAIN REALM.
Q. ALL RIGHT. BUT AM I CORRECT THAT ON TOP OF YOUR
BASE SALARY, SOME PORTION OF THIS GRANT SALARY AND
WAGE WOULD BE APPLIED TO YOUR SUMMER INCOME---
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. --- IS THAT ACCURATE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 288
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. THAT IS CORRECT. OKAY. SO, YOU'RE
RECEIVING A BASE SALARY, AND YOU'RE RECEIVING A
GRANT FROM THIS ONE, AND/OR OTHER GRANTS---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. --- YOU'RE RECEIVING THAT?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. YOU ARE RECEIVING A CONSULTING FEE THAT YOU CANNOT
RECALL---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. --- WHAT IT IS?
A. I'M RECEIVING MANY CONSULTING FEES, 'THOUGH.
Q. WELL, I UNDERSTAND, BUT WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT
THE ONE WE'RE INTERESTED IN.
A. BUT YOU PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER WHEN YOU DO YOUR TAX
RETURNS, PUT THEM IN THE SUM---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND THEN YOU ASK FOR WHAT PARTICULAR PARTS ARE,
IT'S NOT EASY, IF I HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT
A. THOSE, AND I DON'T DO IT THAT WAY. THE GOVERNMENT
DOESN'T ASK YOU TO SIMPLY LIST THE THING, BUT PUT
YOUR TOTAL INCOME DOWN. AND SO IN THE END, YOU
END UP WITH A NUMBER.
SURE. SURE. WHAT IS THE TOTAL NUMBER FOR
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 289
CONSULTING FEES THAT YOU END UP WITH?
A. WELL, THAT -- IT'S HARD TO SAY FROM YEAR TO YEAR,
I DON'T KNOW.
Q. WHAT DID YOU END UP WITH, ROUGHLY, IN '92 FOR
CONSULTING FEES?
A. I HAVEN'T SUMMARIZED IT FOR 192.
Q. YOU HAVE NO IDEA?
A. I HAVEN'T -- I DON'T DO THAT UNTIL SOME TIME IN
APRIL.
Q. DO YOU HANDLE THE FINANCIAL MATTERS IN YOUR
FAMILY, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. PRETTY MUCH.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECEIVE AN ADDITIONAL
INCOME FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK, THE FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AS AN EXPERT WITNESS FOR, LIKE,
SITTING HERE OR TESTIFYING AT TRIAL?
A. I WILL BE PAID FOR MY TIME TO TESTIFY AT TRIAL,
THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. BUT IS THAT AN ADDITIONAL TO THIS CONSULTING FEE
THAT YOU CANNOT RECALL HOW MUCH IT IS?
A. WELL, IT WOULD BE -- IT WOULD BE -- I'LL BE PAID
FOR MY TIME. I DON'T KNOW WHAT AN ADDITIONAL TO
IT. I'M NOT PAID A STANDARD FEE. I DON'T HAVE A
STANDARD RETAINING FEE, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 290
ASKING. I HAVE NO---
Q. LIKE DR. RADER GETS HUNDRED DOLLARS ($800.00) ---
A. I HAVE NO---
Q. --- MONTH, YOU DON'T GET THAT TYPE OF---
A. --- I HAVE NO STANDARD RETAINER FEE. IF THAT --
MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- I HAVE NO RETAINING FEE.
Q. OKAY.
A. OKAY. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE ASKING THAT.
MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD.
Q. WELL, THAT WAS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN---
A. NO, NO.
Q. --- HE HAS THREE SEPARATE SOURCES---
A. NO, I DON'T HAVE A---
Q. --- OF INCOME ---
A. --- I HAVE NO ---
Q. --- REGARDING THIS SAME ISSUE.
A. --- I DO IT ON PER JOB BASIS---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- PER TASK, OR PER HOUR.
Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND THAT HAS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE
'88, '89?
A. I HAVE NEVER HAD A RETAINING FEE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 291
Q. OKAY. OKAY.
A. I'M SORRY IF I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU.
Q. THAT'S FINE. ARE YOU ALSO PAID A SEPARATE EXPERT
WITNESS FEE BY THE COOPERATIVE?
A. I WILL BE PAID FOR MY SERVICES RELATED TO
INFORMATION I PROVIDED TO THE CO-OP, THAT'S
CORRECT.
Q. ON A CONSULTING BASIS?
A. ON A CONSULTING BASIS.
Q. CONSULTING EXPERT WITNESS BASIS. NOW, AND WHAT IS
YOUR SALARY RANGE FOR THAT?
A. MY SCIENTIFIC SALARY RANGE IS A HUNDRED TO A
HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS ($100.00 TO $150.00) AN
HOUR. I THINK IT CURRENTLY IS A HUNDRED AND
FIFTY.
Q. OKAY. AND THE DAILY RATE?
A. IT WOULD BE THE SAME AS I MENTIONED BEFORE.
Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, ON A DAY SUCH AS
TODAY, DR. RICHARDSON, WHERE YOU ARE APPEARING ON
BEHALF OF BOTH OF THEM, DO THEY, LIKE, SPLIT THE
COST FOR THE DAY, OR DO YOU GET DOUBLE?
A. I BELIEVE -- I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.
Q. AFTER TODAY---
A. GOOD SUGGESTION.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 292
Q. --- THEY SHOULD PAY YOU DOUBLE, DR. RICHARDSON.
MR. GREEN: WELL, I'D JUST LIKE TO
INSERT FOR THE RECORD, IF IT'S RELEVANT,
THAT I THINK COUNSEL FOR ALL---
WITNESS: HE ONLY WANTS HALF.
MR. GREEN: --- COUNSEL FOR ALL PARTIES
AGREED TO PROVIDE THEIR WITNESSES AT THEIR
OWN EXPENSE FOR DEPOSITIONS. JUST FOR THE
RECORD, I'D LIKE TO STATE THAT.
MS. PONZOLI: WAS THAT PERSONAL EXPENSE
OR AT CLIENT'S EXPENSE?
MR. GREEN: WAS WHAT PERSONAL OR
CLIENT?
MS. PONZOLI: I'M JUST TEASING.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER
YOU'RE BEING PAID DOUBLE WHEN YOU---
A. OH, I -- I WOULD NOT BE BILLING DOUBLE FOR
THIS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I WOULD BE IT WOULD BE PRORATED. WE HAVE
NOT DISCUSSED HOW THAT WOULD BE DONE.
OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU TESTIFY AT TRIAL,, YOU'LL
RECEIVE PROBABLY THE SAME FEE, BUT JUST SPLIT
BETWEEN TWO CLIENTS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 293
A. THEY WILL HAVE TO---
Q. AND WHEN YOU---
A. ---AGREE OR DISAGREE HOW THEY DO THAT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU PERFORM A TASK THAT GOES TO
BOTH OF THEM, THEN YOU DO THE SAME THING, OR DO
YOU DOUBLE BILL?
A. OH, NO, I WOULD DO -- I'VE DONE VERY LITTLE THE
SAME FOR BOTH OF THEM IN TERMS OF THAT. NORMALLY,
AS I SAID BEFORE, WHAT WILL HAPPEN -- SINCE THE
CO-OP IS NO LONGER PART OF THE LEAGUE -- THE
LEAGUE WILL SAY, PLEASE COME AND TELL ME WHAT THE
PROJECT SUMMARY IS TO DATE, AND THEN THE CO-OP,
SINCE THEY ARE LEFT OUT, THEY WILL CALL ME AND
SAY, PLEASE COME AND TELL ME THE SUMMARY OF WHAT
IT IS TO DATE. SO, I HAVE TO DO IT TWICE.
Q. SO YOU GET PAID TWICE?
A. IF I HAVE TO DO THAT TWICE.
Q. SURE.
A. IF THEY WERE AT THE SAME MEETING, THEN YOU
WOULDN'T DO IT THAT WAY. BUT THEY MAKE ME COME
TWO DIFFERENT TIMES, SO, IN TERMS OF -- IF THEY
WANT THAT INFORMATION.
ALL RIGHT. WHEN WERE YOU FIRST HIRED BY THE CO-OP
AS AN EXPERT WITNESS CONSULTANT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 294
A. OH, THAT WAS VERY -- I -- THAT WAS VERY RECENT --
I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE. MAYBE IT' WAS -- IT
COULD HAVE BEEN '92.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR SALARY TO DATE FROM
THEM OR CONSULTING EXPERT WITNESS FEE HAS BEEN
FOR 192?
A. NO. AS I SAID, IT'S ALL LUMPED IN THAT GROUP.
Q. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU GET IN CONSULTANT
FEES PER YEAR? DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU GET ON AN
AVERAGE YEAR FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS?
A. I'D HAVE TO MAKE A ROUGH GUESS, BUT I COULD --
YOU KNOW---
Q. WHAT'S THE ROUGH GUESS?
A. WELL, IT'S PROBABLY CLOSE TO THAT HUNDRED THOUSAND
DOLLAR ($100,000.00) FIGURE, SOMEWHERE IN THERE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR CONSULTANT WORK IS
DONE IN RELATION TO EVERGLADES ISSUES, LET'S JUST
SAY THE COOPERATIVE, THE LEAGUE, WHATEVER?
A. WHAT PERCENTAGE IS WHAT, NOW, OF MY CONSULTANCY IS
DONE?
Q. RIGHT.
A. WELL, IT AGAIN VARIES BY YEAR. ONE 'YEAR, I WAS
YOU KNOW, I'D HAVE TO GO BACK. ONE YEAR, I HAD
VERY HEAVY CONSULTANCIES WITH THE GOVERNMENT. I
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 295
WAS A CONSULTANT FOR EPA. I RAN THE USDA GRANTS
PROGRAM FOR A YEAR. I WAS PAID A FAIRLY HEFTY
PREMIUM TO RUN THAT PARTICULAR PROGRAM FOR A YEAR,
SO. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT AMOUNT, BUT IT WAS
IN -- YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, SO I CAN'T
TELL YOU WHAT THAT -- YOU KNOW. SOME YEARS, IT
MAY HAVE BEEN HALF FROM OTHER SOURCES; SOME YEARS
IT MAY HAVE BEEN ONLY TWENTY PERCENT. I WOULD
HAVE TO GO BACK, AND, AGAIN, I DON'T REMEMBER
BECAUSE SOME OF THE YEARS OVERLAP; THEY DON'T RUN
CONCURRENT. IN OTHER WORDS, SOME RUN IN, YOU
KNOW, HALF THE YEARS; AND, SOMETIMES, DEPENDING ON
WHEN YOU GET THE PARTICULAR CHECK, IT RUNS IN ONE
YEAR OR THE OTHER.
Q. UNCLE SAM HAS A WAY OF LUMPING IT INTO YEARS,
THOUGH.
A. YES. BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, IN MY OWN
MIND, WHICH YEAR IT FELL INTO.
OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO, YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT
EIGHTY PERCENT -- FIFTY TO EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE
ESTIMATED HUNDRED THOUSAND ($100,000.00) WOULD BE
ATTRIBUTABLE TO THESE CONSULTANCIES, BUT YOU'RE
NOT---
A. DEPENDING UPON THE YEAR, I MEAN, AS I SAID.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 296
Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE THERE ANY OTHER SOURCES OF INCOME
THAT YOU HAVE FROM THIS, DR. RICHARDSON, FROM
THESE EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES? ARE YOU PAID FOR
ANY OF THE SPEECHES THAT YOU GIVE AS YOU GO AROUND
THE COUNTRY, THE WORLD?
A. USUALLY EXPENSES. OCCASIONALLY, I GET AN
HONORARIA.
Q. OKAY. BUT THOSE ARE NOT OF ANY REAL SIGNIFICANCE,
ARE THEY?
A. A FEW THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON
HOW MANY YOU GIVE, I GUESS.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DERIVED ANY PARTICULAR INCOME
REGARDING THE EVERGLADES FROM THESE HONORARIA
THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED IN SPEAKING ON EVERGLADES
ISSUES?
A. NO, NOT REALLY.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THEN WE'LL WAIT FOR
MR. McCAUGHAN, TO FINISH THAT LINE OF
QUESTIONING.
A. OKAY.
Q. YOU HAD INDICATED -- WE HAD NOT FINISHED GOING
THROUGH THE LIST, BUT YOU HAD INDICATED TO ME---
A. ARE YOU FINISHED OFF THIS, NOW?
Q. NO, I'M NOT. THE LIST, I'M NOT FINISHED WITH.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 297
A. NO, NO. I MEAN, DO YOU WANT ME TO CLOSE THIS UP,
NOW?
Q. YES, SIR. I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT WITH
SOME OTHER QUESTIONS.
A. WELL, LET ME SET THAT OVER HERE FOR NOW.
Q. YES, SIR. LET ME ASK YOU JUST ONE QUESTION. WHAT
FRACTION OF YOUR DUKE SALARY IS RECHARGED BACK TO
THAT GRANT? CAN YOU ANSWER THAT?
A. I DON'T KNOW. AS I SAID, IT VARIES FROM SEMESTER
TO SEMESTER.
Q. OKAY.
A. ON A YEARLY BASIS, I DON'T KNOW. ON A SEMESTER
BASIS, ACADEMIC SEMESTER BASIS, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD
BE A SMALL PERCENTAGE, IF ANYTHING. I'M NOT SURE
BECAUSE IT VARIES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I THINK WE WERE GOING THROUGH THE
EXPERT WITNESSES, WHY DON'T WE RETURN TO THAT.
WE WERE AT DR. RADER. DR. RECKHOW IS ON YOUR DUKE
WETLAND CENTER. WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP OF
DR. RECKHOW TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER?
A. HE'S A PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT,
AND HE IS A PARTICIPANT IN THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. RECKHOW?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 298
A. YES, I DID.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU RECOMMENDED HIM FOR WHAT?
A. I RECOMMENDED HIM AS A STATISTICAL CONSULTANT, A
PERSON WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH PHOSPHORUS ISSUES,
WATER QUALITY ISSUES, BAYESIAN STATISTICS,
PROBABILITY ANALYSIS, AND UNCERTAINTY.
Q. WHAT TYPE OF WORK DOES DR. RECKHOW DO WITH THE
DUKE WETLAND CENTER?
A. HE TEACHES COURSES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO STUDENTS
IN THE WETLAND CENTER AND IN THE SCHOOL. HE ACTS
ON COMMITTEES; HE CO-ADVISES STUDENTS IN THE
CENTER; HE WORKS ON GRANTS THROUGH THE CENTER; HE
HELPS WRITE PROPOSALS FOR THE CENTER; AND WE WORK
ON JOINT PROJECTS TOGETHER.
Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. RECKHOW TO THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. IT PROBABLY WAS IN '89,
MAYBE.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE BECAME RETAINED AT THAT TIME BY
A. THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, OR SOMEWHERE IN
THAT TIME FRAME, '89, '90?
A. I BELIEVE HE WAS.
Q. OKAY. AND HAS REMAINED RETAINED BY THEM SINCE
THEN, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 299
A. I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE ONCE HE BECAME,' RETAINED AS A
CONSULTANT, THEN WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS
THAT IN TERMS OF THAT. HE SIMPLY REFUSED TO
DISCUSS THAT COMPONENT OF IT.
Q. WAS THAT BY INSTRUCTIONS FROM YOUR ATTORNEYS?
A. I DON'T KNOW. HE SIMPLY SAID THAT HE WAS -- HE
WAS WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, I BELIEVE---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND SO HE BASICALLY -- I MEAN, WE HAVE MANY
CONVERSATIONS ON MANY THINGS. OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE
LUNCH TOGETHER QUITE OFTEN, BUT WHEN IT---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- ANY OF THAT PART OF IT, IT WAS SORT OF A
PROFESSIONAL AGREEMENT THAT WE SIMPLY WOULDN'T
DISCUSS THAT.
Q. BUT WHY? I MEAN, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU'RE CONCERNED
ABOUT SCIENTIFIC ISSUES WITHIN A MASSIVE ECOSYSTEM
UNDER STRESS, IT WOULD BE A NATURAL TOPIC OF
DISCUSSION.
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
MS. PONZOLI: YOU MAY ANSWER,
DR. RICHARDSON.
A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOUR QUESTION IS. DID WE
DISCUSS---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 300
Q. YEAH, WHY AREN'T YOU DISCUSSING A VERY NATURAL
TOPIC OF DISCUSSION AT LUNCH?
A. WELL, ONE, I'M NOT WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, AND
THAT'S WHAT HE WAS WORKING PRIMARILY ON, SO I -- I
MEAN---
Q. BUT NOW HE'S WORKING ON THE EVERGLADES, ISN'T HE,
SINCE 189, 190?
A. NOT -- AS FAR AS I KNOW, HE'S NOT WORKING ON THE
EVERGLADES SINCE 189 OR 190. THAT IS NOT MY
UNDER---
Q. HE'S ONLY WORKING WITH NUMBERS, CRUNCHING NUMBERS?
A. WELL, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING HE HAS NOT BEEN
WORKING THE EVERGLADES NUMBERS SINCE '89 OR '90.
Q. OH, WHAT DID HE DO IN THE BEGINNING, 189, 190?
A. HE WAS WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. OH, WHEN THEY RETAINED HIM, IT WAS---
A. YES, HE---
Q. --- FOR LAKE OKEECHOBEE AND NOT---
A. --- HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EVERGLADES, RIGHT.
HE WORKING ON -- I RECOMMENDED HIM FOR LAKE
OKEECHOBEE PROBLEMS---
Q. I SEE.
A. --- CAUSE HE'S A LAKE PERSON; HE WORKS A LOT WITH
LAKE AND, YOU KNOW---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 301
Q. IS HE A LIMNOLOGIST?
A. HE'S A WATER -- HE'S AN ENGINEER BY TRAINING, A
STATISTICIAN, AND HE DEALS A LOT WITH WATER
QUALITY. HE'S WRITTEN SOME OF THE BOOKS -- THE
TEXTBOOKS THAT THEY USE ON THAT.
Q. WHEN DID HE BEGIN WORKING ON EVERGLADES RELATED
PROBLEMS, AS YOU YOU ARE DISASSOCIATING THE
LAKE FROM IT, BUT I'M USING YOUR----
A. RIGHT.
Q. --- DISTINCTION, NOT MINE.
A. RIGHT. WELL, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. WHEN DID
HE---
Q. WHEN DID HE BEGIN TO WORK ON WHAT YOU CONSIDER
EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES?
A. THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY IN 192.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND HIM ALSO TO THE
COOPERATIVE?
A. YES.
Q. AND HE WOULD HAVE BEEN RETAINED BY THEM IN '92, TO
THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. THAT WOULD BE CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. FOR SIMILAR PURPOSES?
A. I'M NOT SURE. WELL, IN GENERAL TERMS, YES. I'm
NOT SURE WHAT ARRANGEMENTS THEY HAVE MADE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 302
Q. IN 192, FROM THE TIME HE'S BEEN WORKING ON MORE
EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES, YOU STILL DO NOT HAVE
THESE CONVERSATIONS, IS THAT RIGHT?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION?
I THINK---
A. DO WE HAVE WHAT CONVERSATIONS?
Q. THE CONVERSATIONS AT LUNCH REGARDING WHAT'S GOING
ON WITH THE EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES?
A. OH, WE HAVE SOME GENERAL -- WE HAVE -DOME GENERAL
CONVERSATIONS, BUT NOTHING OF SPECIFICS.
Q. DOES HE EVER DO STATISTICS ON YOUR DATA?
A. ON MY DATA -- HE HAS SEEN SOME OF MY DATA. AS
FAR AS I KNOW -- I'M NOT SURE IF HE IS DOING THE
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ON MY DATA OR NOT AT THE
MOMENT.
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF HE'S DOING THE STATISTICAL---
A. NO.
Q. --- ANALYSIS ON YOUR DATA?
A. NO.
Q. IS THIS PART OF THIS ONGOING JUST DICHOTOMY
BETWEEN---
A. NO, I'M NOT -- I JUST DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I DON'T
KNOW IF HE HAS BEEN ASKED TO DO -- WHAT TO DO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 303
RELATED TO THAT. HE'S BEEN ASKED SOME ASPECTS OF
IT, BUT -- AND, ALSO, HE'S EXTREMELY BUSY, SO I
KNOW HE'S BEEN WORKING ON A NUMBER OF OTHER
THINGS, SO HE HASN'T---
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DOCTOR -- NOT DOCTOR,
MR. WALLER---
A. NO.
Q. --- HE'S ON PAGE 11?
A. NO.
Q. OR DR. HACKNEY?
A. I MAY HAVE RECOMMENDED -- AND I'M VAGUE ON THIS
AS -- DR. HACKNEY A LONG TIME AGO. BUT, YOU KNOW,
AS I SAID BEFORE, I SOMETIMES PRODUCED LISTS OF
PEOPLE IN CERTAIN AREAS, YOU KNOW, WETLANDS
ECOLOGY. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. HE WAS AT THAT ONE PARTICULAR MEETING, WASN'T HE,
WHERE YOU NAMED THE PEOPLE PRE-SAGE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. DID HE ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS -- OH, HE HAD
LEFT BY THE TIME YOU GAVE YOUR PRESENTATION?
A. HE HAD LEFT.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. COLLINS?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU WORK WITH DR. HACKNEY ON ANY OF HIS ISSUES?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 304
A. WHAT ISSUES ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
Q. WELL, THE ONES THAT ARE LISTED, OR ANY OTHER
ISSUES REGARDED TO EVERGLADES.
A. NO. I HAVE WORKED ON COMMITTEES WITH DR. HACKNEY
IN ACADEMIC MATTERS, BUT I HAVE NOT WORKED WITH
HIM ON THE EVERGLADES ISSUES.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. COLLINS'?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND MR. STRICKER?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. HILL?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. JONES, LIMNOLO(;IST?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. MANGARELLA?
A. NO.
Q. DR. SMART?
A. NO.
Q. DR. PRATT?
MR. GREEN: I'M SORRY, WHICH NAME
DID YOU READ?
MR. BURGESS: PRATT.
MR. GREEN: PRATT.
MS. PONZOLI: PRATT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 305
MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.
A. NO.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU RECOMMEND MR. ARMSTRONG?
A. NO.
Q. DR. HORNE?
A. NO.
Q. DR. LETTENMAIER?
A. NO.
Q. DR. MILLARD?
A. NO.
Q. DR. LOFTUS?
A. NO.
Q. DR. EXUM -- WORKS WITH DR. HACKNEY?
A. NO.
Q. DR. DZURIK?
A. NO.
Q. MR. BRAUER?
A. ARE YOU SAYING DONALD BRAUER?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. NO.
Q. DR. LEFOHN?
A. NO.
Q. MR. KRUPA?
A. NO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 306
Q. DR. MEDINA?
A. I MAY HAVE MENTIONED HIS NAME TO THEM.
Q. OKAY. FOR WHAT PURPOSES DID YOU POTENTIALLY OR
POSSIBLY RECOMMEND DR. MEDINA?
A. IF -- AS I -- WE MAY HAVE HAD SOME CONVERSATIONS,
I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY. HIS NAME HAD BEEN
MENTIONED A NUMBER OF TIMES. IT WOULD BE RELATED
TO HYDROLOGY; HYDROLOGY MODELING---
Q. UH-HUH (YES). WHEN?
A. --- PRIMARILY.
Q. WHEN DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED?
A. HIS NAME HAS BEEN BATTED AROUND FOR SEVERAL YEARS,
SO I CAN'T GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC DATE, BUT IT MAY
HAVE BEEN DONE, YOU KNOW, 191 SOMEWHERE---
Q. 1190, AS EARLY AS 190 POSSIBLY?
A. POSSIBLY---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- BUT I AM NOT SURE OF THAT.
Q. RIGHT. MR. STEWART?
A. NO.
Q. DR. DUNCKELMAN?
A. NO.
Q. YOU HAVE WORKED WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN, THOUGH, BACK
AND FORTH ON CERTAIN ISSUES REGARDED TO THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 307
EVERGLADES, HAVE YOU NOT?
A. NO.
Q. HAVE YOU HAD CORRESPONDENCE WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN?
A. HE HAS OCCASIONALLY SENT ME A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING
OR AN ARTICLE. I'VE HAD NO SCIENTIFIC
INTERACTIONS WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN, OTHER THAN HIM
OCCASIONALLY ATTENDING A MEETING. HE MAY HAVE
BEEN IN AN EQC MEETING ONE TIME OR TWO. I CANFT
REMEMBER. I'VE HAD VIRTUALLY NO CONTACT WITH
HIM.
Q. WOULD YOU BE IN THE ROOM AT THE SAME TIME AS
DR. DUNCKELMAN, OR WOULD YOU BE WAITING IN THE
HALL?
A. IT'S HARD TO SAY. I THINK SOMETIMES OBVIOUSLY HE
WAS IN THE ROOM, AND HE MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE
HALLWAY. I DON'T REMEMBER WHO WAS PUT INTO
PURGATORY.
Q. WHERE ARE THESE MEETINGS HELD GENERAIJLY?
THEY'RE AT VARIOUS PLACES. THEY COULD BE AT A
HOTEL, OR THEY COULD BE AT FLO SUN, OR THEY COULD
BE A CLEWISTON, IT JUST DEPENDS.
Q. WHEN YOU MEET IN CLEWISTON, WHERE DO YOU MEET?
A. THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
Q. OH, IN THEIR OFFICES?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 308
A. THEIR OFFICES. WE STAND IN THEIR HALLWAYS.
Q. DOES FLO SUN HAVE NICE HALLWAYS?
A. THEYFRE DARK.
Q. MR. JENNINGS?
A. NO.
Q. MR. OWENS?
A. NO.
Q. MR. MYHRE?
A. NO.
Q. DR. ANDERSON?
A. NO.
Q. DR. STURM?
A. NO.
Q. I'D LIKE TO MOVE TO THE COOPERATIVE'S LIST. SOME
OF IT OVERLAPS, BUT---
A. WHERE ARE WE ON THE -- GOING TO BE AT?
Q. PETITIONERS' WITNESS LIST. THIS IS -- I DONFT
KNOW MR. GREEN'S BOOK.
MR. BURGESS: I THINK IT'S NUMBER ONE.
MR. GREEN: THE PRECEDING TAB.
MS. PONZOLI: MAYBE I SHOULD LOOK AT IT.
MR. GREEN: YOU'RE WELCOME TO.
A. OKAY.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 309
A. IT SAYS "FACT WITNESS" AT THE TOP?
Q. I ASSUME YOU---
A. NO, NO.
Q. --- DID NOT RECOMMEND MYSELF OR OTHERS. DID YOU
RECOMMEND MR. COLE?
A. NO.
Q. MR. HORVATH?
A. NO.
Q. MR. MESSIMER?
A. NO.
Q. HOW ABOUT MR. GHERINI -- IS IT DR. GHERINI? I
DON'T KNOW. THESE DON'T SEEM TO HAVE -- NO, IT
DOESN'T HAVE Ph.D. BEHIND IT. MR. GHERINI?
A. NO.
Q. DR. HAITH?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE COOPERATIVE?
I THINK YOU SAID YOU DID, DIDN'T YOU?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. SO, I HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE LIST.
DR. HERBERT?
A. NO.
Q. DR. LUKE?
A. NO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 310
Q. DR. LEISTRITZ?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEEM TO BE ON
THIS LIST, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. THERE MAY BE SOME. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY,
OFFHAND, TILL WE GO THROUGH THE LIST, I WON'T---
Q. OKAY. DR. McCLAVE?
A. NO.
Q. DR. POLLMAN?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU WORK WITH DR. POLLMAN?
A. OCCASIONALLY.
Q. HAVE YOU WORKED ON ANY MERCURY ISSUES WITH
DR. POLLMAN?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. DR. RECKHOW, WE KNOW YOU'VE WORKED WITH.
THERE'S A SUPPLEMENTAL LIST---
A. I DIDN'T RECOMMEND MYSELF EITHER.
Q. I THINK WE'VE COVERED THAT ONE. I THINK THAT'S
WELL, WAIT A SECOND. SINCE THIS CASE GOES ON
FOREVER, I THINK THAT'S ALL. WERE THERE OTHER
PEOPLE YOU RECOMMENDED, DR. RICHARDSON, TO THE
COOPERATIVE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I'M TRYING TO THINK. THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 311
DIFFICULTY THERE IS THE FACT THAT ORIGINALLY
GEORGE WEDGWORTH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE HEAD OF THE
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND SO I WOULD HAVE RECOMMENDED
SOME PEOPLE WHEN -- IN HIS CAPACITY WITH THE
LEAGUE---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE. AND ALSO ED BARBER
WAS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND AS YOU KNOW,
THEY'RE NOW PART OF THE COOPERATIVE. AT LEAST
GEORGE IS, AND ED WORKS -- OR HAD WORKED FOR A
PERIOD OF TIME -- HE MAY STILL BE, I DON'T KNOW --
AS A CONSULTANT TO THE CO-OP. AND SO IT'S HARD TO
SAY, YOU KNOW, IF THEY DID OR DIDN'T CONSIDER
SOMEBODY UNDER ONE OF THOSE.
Q. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE
YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS ENDED UP?
A. NO. I RECOMMENDED SOME PEOPLE, AS I SAID BEFORE,
AND WHETHER THEY TOOK THEM OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW.
Q. SURE. HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED, AS PART OF YOUR
CONSULTANT WORK ON BEHALF OF THE COOPERATIVE
AND/OR THE LEAGUE TO REVIEW THE WORK OF FEDERAL
EXPERTS?
A. I THINK I'VE HAD SOME REQUESTS TO DO SOME OF THAT,
YES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 312
Q. OKAY. WHICH FEDERAL EXPERTS HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED
TO REVIEW WORK?
A. I RECEIVED SO MANY DOCUMENTS I'M TRYING TO THINK
OF WHICH ONES. YOU KNOW, JUST GIVE ME A MOMENT
HERE. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE THAT I'VE BEEN
ASKED TO DO, I THINK, AND I CAN'T SAY THE
MAJORITY, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE LISTED
AS FEDERAL EXPERTS OR WITNESSES, OR WHATEVER,
BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME, WITH THE
EXCEPTIONS OF ONE OR TWO, WHO THEY WERE. THEY
WERE JUST DOCUMENTS. I HAVE NOT HAD THE TIME TO
REVIEW VERY MANY DOCUMENTS. THE MAIN ONE THAT I
THINK I HAVE REVIEWED, IN TERMS OF EXPERT -- THAT
I UNDERSTAND NOW IS AN EXPERT WITNESS -- IS ONE
COMPONENT OF DR. WALKERIS.
Q. WHAT COMPONENT WAS THAT?
A. I BELIEVE IT WAS AN EARLY COMPONENT WHERE HE WAS
LOOKING AT WATER QUALITY INPUTS TO THE EVERGLADES
NATIONAL PARK.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE CRITICISM OF THAT WORK?
A. IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I LOOKED AT THAT. YES, I
DID GO THROUGH THAT AND LOOK AT THAT PARTICULAR
DOCUMENT.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAD CRITICISMS OF IT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 313
A. YES, I HAD SOME, FROM AN ECOLOGIST'S POINT OF
VIEW, YES.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT AT TRIAL YOU MIGHT
BE CALLED TO REBUT OR CRITIQUE THOSE -- THAT WORK
OF WALKER AND/OR OTHER FEDERAL EXPERTS OR STATE
EXPERTS, FOR THAT MATTER?
A. WELL---
MR. BURGESS: LET ME OBJECT TO
THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. YOU'LL HAVE TO BREAK IT DOWN, BECAUSE YOU'VE
GOT---
Q. FEDERAL AND STATE, IS THAT THE PART THAT CONFUSED
YOU?
A. WELL, FEDERAL AND STATE AND OTHER, AND I MEAN
WHICH -- I'M NOT SURE---
Q. WELL, I WANT TO KNOW---
A. --- JUST START OUT ONE AT A TIME OR PIECE---
Q. --- IS PART OF YOUR CONSULTING EFFORT TO REVIEW,
CRITIQUE, AND POTENTIALLY TESTIFY ABOUT THE WORK
OF FEDERAL EXPERTS, LET'S SAY, FIRST?
A. THE MAJORITY OF IT IN THE BEGINNING HAS NOT BEEN
TO DO THAT. I HAVE BEEN DOING OTHER THINGS. IN
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 314
MORE RECENT TIMES, I MAY BE ASKED TO DO SOME OF
THAT. AS I SAID, I HAVE ONLY REVIEWED SEVERAL
DOCUMENTS IN THAT LIGHT. AND I THINK WALKERFS MAY
BE THE ONLY ONE -- THAT DOCUMENT MAY BE THE ONLY
ONE, TO MY RECOLLECTION, THAT I HAVE REVIEWED IN
THAT LIGHT. I HAVE NOT BEEN ASKED TO REVIEW OTHER
DOCUMENTS FOR THAT, THAT I KNOW, FOR THE FEDERAL.
OKAY.
Q. BUT THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS, YES, AS TO
DR. WALKERIS, YOU MIGHT BE CALLED IN THAT
CAPACITY?
A. I'M NOT SURE I -- I'M NOT SURE I'M GOING TO BE
CALLED IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE. IT'S NOT---
Q. HOW ABOUT---
A. --- I THINK THEY MAY HAVE OTHER PEOPLE DOING THAT;
I THINK THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING NOW, THAT I MAY
NOT BE CALLED TO DO THAT.
Q. WOULD DR. DAVIS BE DOING THAT?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IT WOULD BE?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WOULD BE.
Q. OKAY. IT WOULDN'T BE DR. RECKHOW?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA. I REALLY DON'T.
Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT DR. JONES, DR. KADLEC,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 31S
MR. DOREN, HAVE YOU REVIEWED THEIR WORK?
A. DR. KADLEC; DOCTOR, WHO?
Q. JONES.
A. JONES.
Q. MR. DOREN.
A. MR. DOREN. MR. DOREN, NO; I'M TRYING TO THINK OF
WHO MR. DOREN IS, BUT.
Q. AT THE PARK, AT THE RESEARCH CENTER.
A. BUT I'M NOT SURE WHICH DOCUMENT. I DON'T BELIEVE
I'VE REVIEWED ANY OF HIS DOCUMENTS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I MEAN, I CAN'T SAY I HAVEN'T PICKED IT UP AND
LOOKED AT THE COVER, BUT I HAVE NOT---
Q. YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT IT WASN'T SENT TO YOU AND
THAT IT WASN'T PRODUCED BACK TO THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT; YOU'RE JUST SAYING YOU HAVE NO
RECOLLECTION, AS YOU SIT HERE, HAVING REVIEWED
IT?
A. BACK TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. YOU MEAN BACK
TO---
Q. I WAS PRODUCED A NUMBER OF MY OWN DOCUMENTS---
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- BACK, DR. RICHARDSON.
A. YES, I WAS SENT A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF THOSE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 316
DOCUMENTS, I REALIZE THAT.
Q. RIGHT. RIGHT.
A. AND THEY WERE IN MY FILES, AND I---
Q. AND I GOT THEM BACK.
A. YES, I REALIZE THAT.
MR. BURGESS: BECAUSE YOU ASKED
FOR THEM.
A. YOU WANTED---
MS. PONZOLI: I ONLY GET WHAT I ASK
FOR. I UNDERSTAND, MR. BURGESS.
A. --- AND I'M TELLING YOU THAT FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY
OF THAT INFORMATION, I DIDN'T REVIEW THOSE
DOCUMENTS FOR EXPERT TESTIMONY. I HAVE NOT --
MOST OF THAT WAS FOR MY INFORMATION. THAT'S WHAT
I WAS SENT SO THAT I COULD KEEP UP WITH WHAT WAS
GOING ON. ALSO, THOSE DOCUMENTS CONTAIN IMPORTANT
INFORMATION THAT GIVE ME INSIGHTS AS TO HOW THE
EVERGLADES WORKS; SOME DO, SOME DON'T. SOME ARE
TRASH, AND SOME ARE QUITE GOOD.
Q. SURE. SURE. BUT YOU---
MR. BURGESS: BUT---
MS. PONZOLI: YES.
MR. BURGESS: --- LET ME JUST STATE
FOR THE RECORD THAT ON BEHALF OF THE LEAGUE,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 317
WE HAVE NO INTENTION, AT THIS POINT IN TIME,
IN REQUESTING DR. RICHARDSON TO TESTIFY
CONCERNING THE EARLY COMPONENT OF
DR. WALKER'S WORK THAT HE REVIEWED WITH
RESPECT TO EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. AND
THAT'S THE REASON THAT THE DOCUMENT IS ON
OUR PRIVILEGED LIST.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, WITH THE "AT THIS
TIME" AND THE "EARLY COMPONENT" LIMITATIONS,
I'M NOT SURE I GOT MUCH OUT OF THAT ONE, BUT
I APPRECIATE YOUR INFORMING ME.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL REVIEWING ANY
OTHER FEDERAL EXPERTS' WORK, EITHER FOR PURPOSES
OF YOUR OWN INFORMATION ABOUT THE EVERGLADES, OR
ON A CONSULTANT BASIS?
MR. BURGESS: I'M JUST GOING TO
OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, I'M
SORRY, FROM THE STANDPOINT OF OTHER
CONSULTANTS' WORK. I DON'T UNDERSTAND
WHETHER YOU ARE REFERRING TO SOMETHING THAT
I GAVE THEM, SOMETHING THAT YOU GAVE THEM,
SOMETHING THAT'S AVAILABLE PUBLICLY. THEIR
PUBLICATIONS IN THEIR RESUME, OR SPECIFIC
ITEMS. AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE MIGHT BE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 318
CONFUSED BY THAT. I CERTAINLY KNOW WITH
RESPECT TO THE NAMES THAT YOU AIJREADY GAVE,
THAT HE'S READ THINGS THAT -- THAT THEY MAY
HAVE PUBLISHED. BUT WHEN YOU REFER TO OTHER
ASPECTS OF THEIR WORK, I'M NOT CLEAR ON WHAT
YOU MEAN. THANK YOU.
WITNESS: SO, WHERE ARE WE, I'M SORRY?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I ASSUME YOU'RE NOT CLEAR,
EITHER?
A. WELL, IF YOU ASK ME SPECIFICALLY REALLY TO WHO, I
MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO BETTER ON THAT, BUT GO AHEAD,
GIVE ME---
Q. DO YOU WANT ME TO GO THROUGH THE LIST OF FEDERAL
EXPERTS? I WAS TRYING TO AVOID THAT,
DR. RICHARDSON.
A. WELL, I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT EITHER, BUT YOU MUST
HAVE ONE, OR TWO, OR SOME PEOPLE IN MIND. I MEAN,
I'VE TOLD YOU, BY AND LARGE, I HAVE NOT REVIEWED
FORMALLY -- I BELIEVE I SAID THE ONLY FEDERAL
EXPERT THAT I REVIEWED A DOCUMENT, WHICH I, TO MY
KNOWLEDGE, AM NOT GOING TO BE TESTIFYING TO, WAS
DR. WALKER.
Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT WERE YOUR COMMENTS CONCERNING
HIS WORK ON THE S-12'S?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 319
MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I'M GOING TO
INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER AT THAT POINT.
AT THIS POINT, THE DOCUMENTS ARE ON OUR
PRIVILEGE LIST. WE HAVE NO INTENTION OF
ASKING DR. RICHARDSON ANY QUESTIONS AS AN
EXPERT AT THE TIME OF TRIAL, AND -- ON THAT
AREA OF WORK, AND THUS THE DOCUMENT DOESNFT
CONSTITUTE A DOCUMENT THAT HE HAS REVIEWED OR
RELIED UPON IN EXPRESSING OPINIONS.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS,
DR. RICHARDSON, WILL YOUR TESTIMONY AT TRIAL BE
THE SAME AS YOU HAVE WRITTEN ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS
THAT EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK HAS AND IS RECEIVING
HIGH QUALITY WATER?
A. UNLESS I RECEIVE NEW INFORMATION TO THE CONTRARY.
SINCE I HAVEN'T HAD ACCESS TO THE PARK, I CAN'T
SAY WHAT'S INSIDE THE PARK, I CAN ONLY SAY WHAT
I'VE ANALYZED AND WHAT I'VE LOOKED AT. SO, I
DON'T SEE ANY MAJOR CHANGES.
Q. SO, YES, YOU WOULD -- THE ANSWER IS, YES, YOU
ANTICIPATE THAT YOU WOULD GIVE THAT TESTIMONY?
A. I ANTICIPATE THAT I WOULD GIVE THAT TESTIMONY ON
THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I THINK,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 320
MR. BURGESS, GIVEN THAT THAT IS THE
FUNDAMENTAL PIECE OF HIS TESTIMONY, AND
CERTAINLY A CRITICAL ELEMENT, I THINK HIS
OPINION OF DR. WALKER'S S-12 WATER QUALITY
WORK WOULD BE VERY RELEVANT.
MR. BURGESS: WELL, I DISAGREE.
MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU'RE INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. BURGESS: WITH RESPECT TO WHAT HIS
CRITICISMS WERE THAT WERE -- MAY HAVE BEEN
CONCERNING THAT DOCUMENT, WHICH WAS GIVEN TO
HIM BY COUNSEL AND REQUESTED FOR REVIEW, YES,
THAT'S MY WORK PRODUCT. AND UNTIL -- REALLY
NOT UNTIL, BUT UNLESS I WERE TO TELL YOU THAT
HE WERE TO TESTIFY CONCERNING HIS REVIEW OF
DR. WALKER'S PAPER, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT
YOU'RE ENTITLED TO DISCOVER IT.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I WOULD ASK YOU TO
THINK THAT ONE OVER LIKE YOU DID THE OTHER
ONE, CAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK THAT'S
APPROPRIATE.
MR. BURGESS: I'LL DO THAT.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) RETURNING TO THE FUNCTIONS THAT
YOU HAVE PROVIDED AS A CONSULTANT, YOU SAID YOU'VE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 321
REVIEWED DOCUMENTS; YOU'VE MADE EXPERT
RECOMMENDATIONS; WEFVE REALLY GONE THROUGH THAT
AT LENGTH. YOU'VE REPORTED ON YOUR WORK IN THE
FIELD, AND YOU HAVE REVIEWED OTHER WORK IN THE
FIELD, INCLUDING THE ENTRY TO THE PARK AND THE
REFUGE BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. WHAT
OTHER WORK IN THE FIELD, OTHER THAN THAT ENTRY
INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE, HAVE YOU REVIEWED,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. WHAT WORK IN THE FIELD?
Q. WHAT OTHER FIELDWORK FOR OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE
LEAGUE AND/OR THE COOPERATIVE HAVE YOU REVIEWED?
A. WHAT OTHER FIELDWORK, OKAY.
Q. OTHER THAN THE ENTRY TO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE,
WHICH YOU'VE CONCEDED THAT YOU HAVE---
A. RIGHT. YOU'RE NOT ASKING IF I'VE DONE FIELD
RESEARCH, YOU'RE ASKING ME WHAT FIELDWORK---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- THAT I HAVE REVIEWED?
Q. RIGHT. HAVE YOU DONE ADDITIONAL FIELDWORK FOR THE
LEAGUE?
A. NO, I HAVE NOT.
Q. OKAY.
A. NO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 322
Q. OKAY.
A. THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CLARIFY.
Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. RIGHT.
A. I HAVE REVIEWED AND LOOKED AT, IN A CURSORY WAY --
IN OTHER WORDS, I HAVE NOT WRITTEN A FORMAL
REPORT, BUT I HAVE DISCUSSED THIS IN SEVERAL
MEETINGS -- THE INFORMATION IN THE ENR WORKSHOP.
SOME DOCUMENTS RELATED TO, I THINK, CLARIFICATION
OF LOTS. IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE
TO NAME THE NUMBER OF QUESTIONS THAT -- THROUGH
TWO OR THREE YEARS WOULD COME UP RELATED TO A
NUMBER OF ISSUES. I HAVE REVIEWED DR. KADLECIS
AND NEWMAN'S REPORT -- AT LEAST REVIEWED IT IN
TERMS OF LOOKING AT IT -- AND MADE SOME VERBAL
COMMENTS; HAD DISCUSSIONS ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS
RELATED TO THAT WORK. THE NOLTE REPORT, I HAVE
LOOKED AT THAT REPORT, AND DISCUSSED THAT REPORT.
NUMEROUS PAPERS, PUBLISHED PAPERS, THINGS LIKE
THAT, OCCASIONALLY, AND BRING UP TOPICS RELATED TO
THAT.
Q. YOU DON'T RECALL THE NAMES OF THESE VARIOUS
PAPERS?
A. NO. IT'D HAVE TO HAVE BEEN -- YOU KNOW, NO, I
DON'T. SOME OF THEM WOULD BE IN THE BACK OF MY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 323
ANNUAL REPORT, THAT WOULD BRING UP CONCEPTS OR
RELATIONSHIPS TO CATTAIL, OR TO SAWGRASS, OR SOME
ASPECT OF WATER QUALITY.
Q. THEY WOULD FIRST BE PROVIDED TO YOU, THOUGH, BY
THE LEAGUE?
A. NO. I WOULD BE THE ONE PROVIDING THEM.
Q. OH, YOU WOULD PROVIDE THEM, AND THEN YOU WOULD
PASS THEM ON TO THE LEAGUE, HERE'S SOMETHING THAT
MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU?
A. I SAID, THIS MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU, YOU
MIGHT WANT TO LOOK AT THIS, THIS MIGHT BE
IMPORTANT, TAKE A LOOK AT THIS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- THIS IS AN AREA THAT MAY NEED FURTHER ANALYSIS.
Q. IS THAT PRETTY MUCH IT?
A. IN TERMS OF REVIEWING OTHER PEOPLE'S FIELDWORK,
THAT'S TRUE. I THINK I'VE LOOKED AT -- I'VE
LOOKED AT SOME OF THE PARK DOCUMENTS RELATING TO
THE DOSING STUDY. THOSE THINGS HAVE BEEN
DISCUSSED, THEIR DOSING STUDY. SOME OF THE DATA
THAT'S BEEN MADE AVAILABLE FROM THE PARK, THAT'S
BEEN LOOKED AT. AGAIN, I'VE NOT WRITTEN ANY
FORMAL REPORTS ON THAT. I MAY HAVE MADE A FEW
NOTES, I CAN'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 324
Q. THOSE WERE PROVIDED TO YOU BY THE LEAGUE OR THE
ATTORNEYS?
A. SOMEONE. I THINK PROBABLY MOST OF THESE
DOCUMENTS, I THINK YOU'LL FIND, CAME FROM PEEPLES,
EARL AND BLANK. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THAT.
CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS SEND ME DOCUMENTS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- THE GOVERNMENT SENDS ME DOCUMENTS.
Q. BUT THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T SEND YOU THE DOSING
STUDY DOCUMENTS?
A. NO.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I GUESS FOR THE
RECORD, MR. BURGESS, I'D LIKE TO CERTIFY
THOSE QUESTIONS THAT YOU'VE INSTRUCTED HIM
NOT TO ANSWER, AND I WILL CHOOSE:---
MR. BURGESS: THE ONLY QUESTION THAT I
INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER -- SO, THAT
WE'RE CLEAR FOR THE RECORD -- IS TO DISCUSS
THE CRITICISMS CONTAINED IN A WRITTEN REPORT
THAT HE DID, AT COUNSEL'S REQUEST, WITH
RESPECT TO WILLIAM WALKER'S EARLY DOCUMENT
ON THE PARK. THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION I'VE
INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, THEN, I- WILL RESERVE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 325
MY RIGHT TO CALL THAT UP, AND TO HAVE IT --
HAVE IT ANSWERED.
MR. BURGESS: I UNDERSTAND.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. BURGESS: I JUST WANT TO BE SURE
WE'RE CLEAR THAT I'VE ONLY INSTRUCTED HIM ON
THAT ONE QUESTION. HE TOLD YOU THAT HE
PERFORMED IT; HE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD SOME
CRITICISMS OF IT. I'M JUST ASKING HIM NOT
TO DISCUSS THE CRITICISMS OF IT, BECAUSE IT'S
MY WORK PRODUCT AT THE MOMENT.
MS. PONZOLI: YOU DON'T THINK THE
IDENTITY OF THE OTHER WITNESS HE WAS
INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. BURGESS: OH, I'M SORRY. THERE WERE
TWO QUESTIONS THIS MORNING. YES, THAT'S THE
OTHER ONE THAT I'VE INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO
ANSWER. THE IDENTITY OF THE NON-TESTIFYING
WITNESS. THAT'S RIGHT.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I JUST
WANTED TO BE CLEAR---
MR. BURGESS: AND I DO, TOO. THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: --- I'M NOT SAYING I HAVE A
PERFECT MEMORY, BUT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 326
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU REVIEW ANY PERIPHYTON
DOCUMENTS, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I MAY HAVE READ A FEW PAPERS RELATED TO
PERIPHYTON, YES. I DID NOT FORMALLY REVIEW THOSE.
SINCE PERIPHYTON IS NOT IN MY AREA OF EXPERTISE, I
TURNED THOSE OVER TO -- AS I'VE DONE FROM TIME TO
TIME WHEN WE WOULD GET INFORMATION THAT WAS
APPROPRIATE -- I WOULD TURN THEM OVER TO, IN THAT
CASE, DR. RADER AND DR. VYMAZAL.
Q. OKAY. SO, IF PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK SENT YOU
DOCUMENTS IN AN AREA THAT YOU FELT WAS MORE IN THE
EXPERTISE OF ANOTHER SCIENTIST, YOU WOULD HAVE
TURNED THEM OVER TO THAT PERSON?
A. OCCASIONALLY. IF IT WAS JUST -- IF IT WAS, LIKE,
PUBLISHED INFORMATION OR PAPERS WE DID NOT HAVE,
OR, IN SOME CASES, IF IT WAS RAW DATA, OR -- I
DON'T KNOW HOW RAW -- I DON'T BELIEVE I TURNED
OVER VERY MUCH RAW DATA. I DONFT -- SOME OF IT IS
PRETTY MUCH INDECIPHERABLE IN THE FORMS THAT
IT'S---
Q. SURE. SURE. WHAT TYPE OF RAW DATA HAVE YOU
RECEIVED FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK?
WELL, I THINK I HAVE RECEIVED -- AND YOU'VE GOTTEN
IT PRETTY MUCH IN YOUR FILE -- AND I CAN'T ATTEST
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 327
TO -- THAT A LOT OF IT, I'VE NEVER LOOKED AT,
OTHER THAN JUST A CURSORY LOOK AT IT TO DECIDE
THAT IT WOULD TAKE ME YEARS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT
THIS DATA WAS, AS YOU WILL FIND FROM MY DATA,
SINCE IT'S TAKEN ME YEARS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT
IS.
IT WOULD BE -- YOU KNOW, I THINK ON SEVERAL
OCCASIONS THERE WERE MAYBE ALGAL COUNTS OR
MATERIALS. SOMETIMES THERE WERE SUMMARY LISTS OF
THOSE, WHICH WOULD BE MORE USEFUL. BUT THE ACTUAL
RAW DATA, YOU KNOW, PAGES WITHOUT DATES, AND TIMES
AND PLACES, AND MAYBE THERE WAS A CODE, YOU DON'T
HAVE THE CODE, SO.
Q. IT'S BEEN AN INTERESTING CASE. ARE THESE
DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, SOME
OF THIS RAW DATA?
A. YES, I'M SURE IT WAS.
Q. OKAY. AND WAS SOME OF IT PRODUCED BY' THE STATE?
A. I THINK SOME OF IT CAME FROM THE SOUTH FLOR---
Q. WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT?
A. WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT.
Q. BUT IT ALL CAME FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK?
A. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME THINGS I OBTAINED
MYSELF. I WENT TO THE DISTRICT AND OBTAINED SOME
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 328
OF THE REPORTS AND SOME DATA. AS I TOLD YOU
BEFORE, I THINK THERE'S SOME DATA IN THOSE FILES
WE GOT OFF OF COMPUTER RECORDS OURSELVES FROM
DATABANKS. AND SOME WE SEARCHED OURSELVES. SOME
OF IT'S OPEN PUBLIC LITERATURE. I CAN'T ATTEST TO
HOW MANY, BUT I'D SAY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE
MATERIAL IN THERE CAME FROM -- WELL, ALSO IT COULD
BE SOME FROM THE CO-OP. THEY OCCASIONALLY WILL
SEND ME -- I GET A LOT OF MATERIAL FROM A LOT OF
PEOPLE. I'LL GET SCIENTIST WHOFLL SAY, I FOUND
THIS NEAT ARTICLE ON THE EVERGLADES -- AND SEND
IT. I'LL GET, YOU KNOW, NEWSPAPER CL,IPPINGS.
I GET ALL SORTS OF THINGS. MY MAIL IS -- AND I
ALMOST NEED SOMEONE JUST TO SORT OF THE MAIL OUT
OF THIS.
Q. I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.
A. I DON'T READ IT ALL.
MS. PONZOLI: LET'S TAKE A BREAK,
DR. RICHARDSON.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. DR. RICHARDSON, YOU SAID THAT YOU HAL) REVIEWED
DOCUMENTS ON THE ENR, ETCETERA, AND YOU NAMED
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 329
SEVERAL THINGS. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU BRIEFLY
YOUR OPINION OF THESE VARIOUS DOCUMENTS. YOU SAID
THAT YOU HAD BEEN SENT ENR WORKSHOP DOCUMENTS.
WHAT WERE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE ENR WORKSHOP
DOCUMENTS?
A. WELL, THERE WAS -- THAT WAS -- WHAT I REFERRED TO
THERE, THAT WAS ACTUALLY A WORKSHOP THAT I
ATTENDED---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- AND SO, ESSENTIALLY, I THINK I SAID THAT -- OR
MEANT TO SAY, IF I DIDN'T, THAT ESSENTIALLY I HAD
DISCUSSED, AFTER THAT MEETING, WITH SOME PEOPLE
THE ESSENCE OF THE MEETING, THE UPSHOT. I
ACTUALLY WROTE DR. KADLEC A LETTER -- AND I THINK
YOU HAVE COPIES OF THAT OR DRAFTS OF THAT -- AS
TO MY OPINIONS ON THAT. I REVIEWED THAT. I
BASICALLY REVIEWED -- THERE WERE A NUMBER OF
PRESENTERS AT THAT MEETING, AND I REVIEWED SOME
OF THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THE MEETING. I HAD ACTUALLY
TAKEN SOME NOTES AT THAT MEETING, SO I HAD SOME
NOTES THAT I' KIND OF SUMMARIZED FROM, I BELIEVE;
LIKE HIGH POINTS OF THE ENR, THE NEE[) FOR IT;
THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE SAW THAT EXISTED; THE
UTILIZATION OF ENR AS IT RELATES TO STAIS; THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 330
PROBLEMS OF TRANSFERABILITY; THE PROBLEMS OF THE
SITE ITSELF. THERE WERE MANY ISSUES THAT WERE
BROUGHT UP AT THE ENR MEETING BY MANY DIFFERENT
EXPERTS.
Q. WELL, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, WHAT I HAD REALLY BEEN
DRIVING AT IN MY QUESTION WAS, IN YOUR OPINION,
WHAT ARE THE HIGH POINTS OF THE ENR, AS YOU CALL
THEM?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN HIGH POINTS, DO YOU MEAN THE
POSITIVE VERSUS THE NEGATIVE, OR DO YOU -- WHAT
WERE THE KEY POINTS OF THAT MEETING?
Q. YES, SIR. I THINK THAT'S THE SENSE IN WHICH YOU
USED THE WORD HIGH POINTS, WAS IT NOT?
A. YES. I GUESS -- I GUESS THE POSITIVE WAS THAT
THERE WAS -- PEOPLE WERE EXCITED ABOUT THE
POSSIBILITY OF THE ENR PROJECT, THE RESEARCH
ESPECIALLY FROM THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT,
THE ABILITY TO DO -- OR THE CAPAB -- LET'S SEE.
THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT RESEARCH, I THINK, WAS
QUITE REWARDING TO SOME OF THE WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT PEOPLE. THEY FELT THAT THINGS SHOULD BE
DONE TO ALLOW THEM TO DESIGN SOME ACTIVITIES.
THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ON ACTUALLY THE DESIGN
ITSELF. THERE WERE SOME POSITIVES. I THINK A LOT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 331
OF GOOD IDEAS CAME OUT OF THAT IN TERMS OF HOW IT
MIGHT BE SET UP.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WERE THE CRITICISMS OR THE PROBLEMS
THAT YOU HAD OF THE ENR DESIGN?
A. WELL, I THINK COMING TO CLOSURE, I GUESS, MY MAJOR
ONE WAS -- AND, OF COURSE, STILL IS -- IS THE FACT
THE ENR PROJECT IS NOT IN TIME SYNC WITH THE
STAIS. THE AGREEMENTS, I GUESS, THAT'S BEEN --
THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT THAT'S BEEN PERMEATING
FROM ON HIGH, SHALL WE SAY, BASICALLY DOESN'T
ALLOW SCIENCE TO REACH ITS CONCLUSION. IT JUST --
IT DOESN'T -- OR EVEN START. IT ESSENTIALLY --
THE STATE HAS ONE VIEW AND THE FEDERAL JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT SEEMS TO HAVE ANOTHER VIEW, IN TERMS OF
THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, SO THEY ESSENTIALLY ARE
ALLOWING THE ENR PROJECT AND THE STATS TO GO ON
SIMULTANEOUSLY. SO, AS A SCIENTIST -- AND I THINK
A NUMBER OF PEOPLE AT THAT MEETING AIJSO FELT THE
SAME, AND -- THAT, IN FACT, THIS WAS NOT THE WAY
IT SHOULD BE DONE.
SECONDLY, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF ISSUES THAT
WERE BROUGHT UP. I AM NOT SURE THEY'VE ALL BEEN
ADDRESSED. THAT RELATES TO SUCH ISSUES AS BMPIS,
WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THAT WOULD CHANGE THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 332
FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS GOING INTO THE SYSTEM, AND HOW
THAT WOULD EFFECT, AND BE TESTED FOR, AND THE USE
OF ALTERNATE PLANTS, RETENTION TIMES, DEPTH OF
WATER, EFFECTS OF SOIL. THERE ARE A HOST OF
ISSUES THAT ARE RELATED TO A PROJECT THAT HAS --
THE PROPOSED STA PROJECT IS NOT ONLY THE LARGEST
EVER PROPOSED THAT I'VE EVER BEEN AWARE OF; IT IS
ALSO ONE THATFS BEING BASED ON SOME PAUCITY OF
DATA IN TERMS OF REFERENCE SITES, AS TO HOW THEY
MIGHT WORK. AND SO THERE ARE A LOT OF DESIGN
CRITERIA THAT REALLY NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. AND I
THINK -- SO, I POINTED OUT WHERE I THINK THAT --
THE VALUE OF THE ENR PROJECT, I MEAN, AS I'VE SAID
I THINK IN PUBLIC MEETINGS, AND I'VE SAID MANY
TIMES, THE ENR HAS VALUE.
SO, I THINK THAT, IN ESSENCE, YOU KNOW,
COVERS IT. I DON'T REMEMBER -- IT'S BEEN QUITE A
HILE -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE SPECIFIC.
SURE. LET ME ASK YOU THIS. YOU SAY THAT -- I
GUESS WHAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO IN THE SETTLEMENT
AGREEMENT WAS THE -- HAVE YOU REVIEWED THAT
DOCUMENT, THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT?
A. NOT IN ANY DETAIL. I'VE LOOKED AT SOME PIECES OF
IT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 333
Q. WHAT PIECES DID YOU LOOK AT?
A. WELL, THERE'S SO MANY OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, I CAN'T
TELL YOU WHICH ONE IS REALLY THE SETTLEMENT
AGREEMENT. I THINK I LOOKED---
Q. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SHOW YOU ONE?
A. SURE. THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.
MS. PONZOLI: I THINK THERE'S ONE
UNDERNEATH OVER THERE.
(THEREUPON, MR. PONZOLI
AND MR. JONES CONFER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHEN YOU SAID IT CAME FROM "ON
HIGH," YOU WERE JUST SORT OF TEASING, WEREN'T YOU?
A. WELL.
Q. DID YOU THINK IT WAS DIVINELY INSPIRED?
A. NOT THAT HIGH.
MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISSCUSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
(BY MS. PONZOLI) I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A NOTICE
OF FILING, SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT -- IT HAS THE
SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT -- INSPIRED BY WHOMEVER --
AND ASK YOU TO TELL ME WHAT PIECES OF IT YOU HAVE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 334
REVIEWED.
A. WELL, I'LL HAVE TO GO -- BELIEVE ME, I HAVE SEEN
A LOT OF DOCUMENTS, SO I DON'T KNOW IF -- I MEAN,
I THINK I -- LET ME TAKE A MOMENT HERE TO LOOK AT
THIS.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE YOU READY?
A. I'M READY.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHICH PIECES DID YOU REVIEW OF THE
SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I -- AND WHEN YOU SAY "REVIEW," I WILL TELL YOU
WHAT I HAVE DONE. I HAVE RECEIVED, I THINK,
SEVERAL COPIES OF THIS, THAT I HAVE REVIEWED IN
A CURSORY MANNER. I HAVE NOT REVIEWE:D THIS WITH
ANY DOCUMENTATION, NOR HAVE I DISCUSSED IN ANY
REAT DETAIL MANY COMPONENTS. I THINK I'VE
EXTRACTED FROM THIS A FEW OF THE PROPOSED
STANDARDS AND SO FORTH THAT I'VE USED IN VARIOUS
TALKS, AND -- BUT I HAVE NOT DONE A VERY EXTENSIVE
ANALYSIS OF THIS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 335
Q. OKAY. WHAT PORTIONS OF IT, THE STANDARDS,
ETCETERA, DO YOU OBJECT TO, OR HAVE CRITICISMS
OF?
A. WELL, AS I SAID, I'VE ONLY GIVEN IT A VERY CURSORY
REVIEW, SO I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH AND LOOK
SPECIFICALLY AT EACH ONE. I HAVEN'T HAD A -- IF
YOU HAVE SPECIFIC ONES.
Q. WELL, THE INTERIM STANDARDS FOR THE PARK AND THE
REFUGE OR THE LONG-TERM STANDARDS. ARE YOU
TELLING ME, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU HAVE REALLY
NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THOSE ARE?
A. WELL, I HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY ARE, BUT
I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, IN ALL SERIOUSNESS,
I MEAN, THOSE NUMBERS HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY.
Q. AND SO YOU'RE UNFAMILIAR WITH WHETHER THOSE
NUMBERS WOULD APPEAR IN THE SWIM PLAN AGAIN, OR
NOT?
A. WELL, THAT -- AND I'M NOT SURE. I GET A LITTLE
BIT CONFUSED IN THE MANGARELLA-DOUGLAS ACT AND THE
SWIM PLAN, AND THE SWIM PLAN DOCUMENTS, AND THE
FINAL SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT. I HAVE NOT SPENT A
LOT OF TIME POURING OVER THIS, BUT I HAVE -- AS
FAR AS I CAN LOOK AT HERE, EXTRACT -- OBVIOUSLY,
THE FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION NUMBER IS ONE THAT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 336
SEEMS TO POP OUT HERE AS AN INTERIM STANDARD.
AND WHEN I LOOK BACK THROUGH PARTS OF IT, THERE
WERE STANDARDS SET FOR SHARK RIVER, AND THE
LOXAHATCHEE, AND SO FORTH AND SO ON, YOU KNOW.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER REVIEWED THOSE FOR PURPOSES OF
DETERMINING IF YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE APPROPRIATE
OR NOT?
A. NO, I HAVEN'T. FOR THE LOXAHATCHEE, I HAVEN'T,
BECAUSE I, AS YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T HAD ACCESS, SO I
HAVE NO BASIS ON WHICH TO COMPARE THE LOXAHATCHEE.
AND I HAVEN'T -- AND FOR THE PARK, AGAIN, NOT
HAVING ACCESS, I HAVE NO BASIS FOR KNOWING WHAT'S
INSIDE THE PARK. I HAVE LOOKED AT THEM IN TERMS
OF SOME OF THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT DATA---
Q. WELL, LET ME---
A. --- FOR EXAMPLE, THE DATA GOING INTO THE PARK
SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT IT IS ABOUT WHAT THE
STANDARD IS, IT'S ABOUT TEN PARTS PER BILLION,
SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. THAT'S MY
RECOLLECTION.
Q. IT'S YOUR RECOLLECTION FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DATA?
A. YEAH, I BELIEVE IT'S ABOUT TEN PARTS PER BILLION
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 337
THAT'S BEING GOING IN THERE FOR, YOU KNOW -- I
DON'T KNOW WHAT THE STATISTICS IS RELATED TO IT,
YOU KNOW, THE STANDARD ERRORS OF THAT, BUT IT'S
NOT TOO BIG. SO, ESSENTIALLY, THAT'S WHAT I
RECOLLECT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT IS RECOMMENDED
HERE, BUT I'D HAVE TO GO SORT OF LINE BY LINE.
(THEREUPON, MR. McCAUGHAN ENTERS
THE DEPOSITION AT 11:51 A.M.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU WERE SAYING IN REGARD TO --
ANY OTHER COMMENTS ON IT? YOU JUST DON'T REALLY
RECALL IT THAT WELL?
A. WELL, I MEAN, I HAVE JUST A GENERAL CURSORY
KNOWLEDGE. I DON'T GO THROUGH -- I HAVE NOT GONE
THROUGH AND MADE EXTENSIVE NOTES, AND LINE BY
LINE. I MEAN, AS I SAID, THE FIFTY PARTS PER
BILLION COMES OUT AS AN INTERIM ONE. THE PARK HAS
A TEN. I'M NOT SURE -- I HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING
EXTENSIVELY ON THIS DOCUMENT.
OKAY. DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ON THE FIFTY PARTS
PER BILLION INTERIM STANDARD?
A. I MEAN, IN WHAT TERMS? I MEAN, OPINION AS---
Q. WELL, DO YOU -- DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO
WHETHER IT'S AN APPROPRIATE INTERIM STANDARD TO BE
GOING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS WHICH ARE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 338
THE EVERGLADES?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE APPROPRIATE -- I DON'T KNOW
IF YOU'RE ASKING ME WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL
ACHIEVE FIFTY, I DON'T KNOW THAT; AND I DON'T
WHETHER FIFTY IS THE RIGHT CONCENTRATION AT THIS
STAGE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT YOU WOULD
BELIEVE AN APPROPRIATE INTERIM CONCEIITRATION
SHOULD BE?
A. NOT UNTIL WE COMPLETE THE DOSING STUDY. THAT
MIGHT GIVE US A MUCH BETTER HANDLE ON WHAT WE
WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE.
Q. AND WHEN WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE THAT WOULD BE?
A. WELL, IT'S UNDERWAY NOW, AS YOU KNOW, AND IT COULD
BE A YEAR.
Q. YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE AN ANSWER III ONE YEAR?
A. IT'S A WELL, WE'D HAVE -- WE'D HAVE SOME
INDICATION. I MEAN, IT MAY BE AFTER A YEAR WE
DON'T SEE A RESPONSE.
Q. YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MACROPHYTE RESPONSES
IN A SINGLE YEAR, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. PROBABLY NOT. THERE COULD BE SOME. I DON'T
BUT PROBABLY NOT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 339
Q. OKAY. HOW LONG WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE IT WOULD TAKE
FOR MACROPHYTE RESPONSES TO SHOW UP AT THE DOSING
STUDY?
A. IT COULD BE SEVERAL YEARS. I'M NOT -- I'M NOT
SURE. WE'RE -- WE'RE AHEAD OF THE GAME IN ONE
SENSE; WE HAVE THE FERTILIZER STUDY 110 TRY TO DO
THAT, IN THE SENSE THAT -- WHILE IT'S A MASS
LOADING EXPERIMENT, IT TRIES TO GIVE US SOME
RESPONSE. AND SO WE'RE NOW IN OUR THIRD YEAR ON
THAT, SO IN ONE CASE WE'RE A LITTLE BIT UP ON
THAT. SO, IT MAY GIVE US SOME INFORMATION ON
THAT. THE DOSING STUDY, OBVIOUSLY, IS JUST COMING
ON LINE IS GOING TO TAKE -- I CAN'T SAY HOW LONG
IT WILL TAKE, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT TAKES SEVERAL
YEARS, MAYBE LONGER. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO
THAT.
Q. WELL, I GUESS I'M CONFUSED.
A. RELATED TO MACROPHYTES.
Q. WELL, WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD HAVE AN ANSWER
AS TO AN APPROPRIATE STANDARD? I MEAN, COULD YOU
GIVE US AN ESTIMATE OF WHEN YOU THINK THAT THE
DOSING STUDY WOULD YIELD SUFFICIENT DATA TO GIVE
US AN ANSWER AS TO WHAT AN APPROPRIATE STANDARD
WOULD BE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 340
A. I THINK THAT WE---
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
A. --- I WOULD THINK -- IT'S HARD TO DETERMINE. AS I
SAID, IF YOU GET A RESPONSE, IT MAY BE POSSIBLE
FOR SOME COMPONENTS YOU GET A RESPONSE EARLY, OR
IT MAY NOT BE. I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE MANY
COMPONENTS OF THE SYSTEM WEFRE LOOKING AT. I
THINK THE PARK RAN THEIR STUDY FOR SEVERAL YEARS
BEFORE THEY GOT A RESPONSE.
Q. UH-HUH. UH-HUH.
A. --- SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO KNOW IN THE
EXPERIMENT BEFORE YOU DO THE EXPERIMENT. I MEAN,
AS I WAS SAYING, THE FERTILIZER -- WE DON'T HAVE
JUST THE DOSING STUDY, WE HAVE THE FERTILIZER
STUDY, TOO, WHICH WILL GIVE US A LITTLE LONGER
TIME ON THE MACROPHYTES. BUT THE -- SOME OF THE
ORGANISMS RESPOND SOONER, LIKE PERIPIIYTON AND SO
FORTH.
Q. WELL, COMBINING THE FERTILIZER STUDY AND THE
DOSING STUDY, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH AN
APPROPRIATE INTERIM STANDARD WITHIN A YEAR?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
A. IT MAY BE POSSIBLE, IT MAY NOT. I DON'T KNOW.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 341
Q. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THERE WOULD BE AN ANSWER
AVAILABLE?
A. NO. I MEAN, IT COULD BE -- IT COULD BE SOONER,
BUT IT MIGHT -- YOU KNOW, I JUST CAN'T SAY AT THIS
TIME. I MEAN, IT WOULD BE LIKE -- I DON'T
PARTICULARLY FEEL I CAN BE HELD TO IT, BECAUSE I
DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO RESPOND. I MEAN,
WE -- WE THOUGHT WOULD HAVE THE DOSING STUDY
GOING, OH, A YEAR AGO, OR CLOSE TO IT, BUT WE HAD
ALL SORTS OF---
Q. I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED ABOUT THAT, DR. RICHARDSON.
I HAVE TO TELL YOU TRUTHFULLY, IT'S TAKEN A LONG
TIME TO GET THAT DOSING STUDY UP AND GOING, AND IT
WASN'T ALL HURRICANE RELATED. IS THERE JUST LIKE
A REAL SIMPLE, TWENTY WORDS OR LESS, EXPLANATION
FOR WHY?
A. YES, I -- WELL---
Q. YOU THOUGHT YOU'D ALREADY GIVEN ME THAT?
A. NO. NO. NO. IT HAPPENS TO BE, I THINK, A ONE
OF A TYPE STUDY. PEOPLE HAVE NOT DONE THAT STUDY
OF THAT MAGNITUDE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE EVERGLADES
WITH NO ELECTRICITY, TRYING TO USE A SORT OF A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 342
PLUG FLOW THEORY IN A SENSE OF PUSHING WATER
THROUGH, AND KEEPING A CONSTANT CONCENTRATION
RATHER THAN A GRADIENT. AND, BASICALLY, IT'S NOT
SOMETHING YOU CAN GO TO THE SHELF. WE DID NOT
WANT TO DUPLICATE WHAT WAS DONE BY THE PARK SINCE
IT WASN'T REPLICATED. WE WANTED -- WE HAD TO HAVE
A YEAR'S WORTH OF BACKGROUND, EQUILIBRATION DATA.
WEFVE HAD SOME STAFFING PROBLEMS; WE'VE HAD
HURRICANE PROBLEMS; WE'VE HAD SOME DESIGN
PROBLEMS -- NOTHING THAT'S AFFECTED THE SITE,
PER SE, BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN VERY CAREFUL TO KEEP
THAT. BUT IT'S A -- IT'S A DIFFICULT EXPERIMENT.
IT'S NOT AN EASY EXPERIMENT TO DO.
Q. SURE.
A. SOMEONE WHO WOULD TRY TO DO THIS WOULD FIND IT
VERY DIFFICULT.
Q. ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE AN ONGOING PROBLEM WITH THE
SOLAR DRIVEN SYSTEM AND ALL THE CLOUDINESS AND
RAIN IN THE EVERGLADES?
A. WE'VE INCREASED THE SOLAR PANELS AND THE BATTERY
COMPLEXES, SO I THINK WE'VE OVERCOME THAT. AND
WE HAD SOME INITIAL PROBLEMS. BOB JOHNSON IS
VERY CAPABLE IN DESIGNING THOSE, AND SO I THINK
WE'VE OVERCOME SOME OF THAT. WE MAY HAVE TO GO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 343
TO SOME MORE EXPENSIVE BATTERIES THAN WE ONCE
THOUGHT, BUT I THINK WE'VE GOT MOST OF THE BUGS
WORKED OUT.
Q. OKAY. OKAY, ON THE ENR -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
YOUR COMMENTS ON THE ENR. YOU'VE TALKED SEVERAL
TIMES ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF TRANSFERABILITY. WHAT
DOES THAT MEAN?
A. WELL, PRIMARILY, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO
HAVE TRANSFERABILITY IF THE STUDY'S NOT ALLOWED TO
GO; HOW CAN YOU TRANSFER SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T
COMPLETED. I MEAN, MY POINT IS -- I THINK THAT IT
WAS MY PRIMARY CONCERN IS IF -- IF THE STAFS --
YOU HAVE A THIRTY-SEVEN HUNDRED ACRE EXPERIMENT,
ROUGHLY, AND THEN YOU'RE BASICALLY, IN MY OPINION
AS A SCIENTIST, SETTING UP ANOTHER THIRTY-FIVE
THOUSAND ACRE EXPERIMENT AT THE SAME TIME. SO,
ESSENTIALLY, HOW CAN YOU TRANSFER THE,' INFORMATION
FROM ONE STUDY THAT YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HARDLY
STARTED? THERE'S NOTHING TO TRANSFER, ONLY LITTLE
A. BITS AND PIECES. AND SO I THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM
TO START OFF, AND THAT'S A PRETTY MAJOR PROBLEM IN
TERMS OF TRANSFER---
OKAY. YOU DON'T THINK YOU'VE HAD A TWENTY YEAR
EXPERIMENT GOING IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 344
A. IT'S NOT AN EXPERIMENT, PER SE, OR AT LEAST NOT A
CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT. THERE HAS BEEN -- I THINK
THAT'S PART AND PARCEL -- PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH
THE WATER CONSERVATION AREA DATA IS THAT WHILE IT
IS INFORMATIVE AND IT IS HELPFUL, THERE ARE SOME
CAVEATS THAT ONE HAS TO LOOK AT, WHICH I MENTIONED
THE OTHER DAY. THE WATER LEVELS HAVE BEEN RAISED
AND LOWERED SIGNIFICANTLY IN THAT AREA. THERE
HAVE BEEN DROUGHT PROBLEMS, RETENTION TIME, THE
WATER MOVEMENT, THE FLOW. A LOT OF THOSE FACTORS
HAVE NOT BEEN STUDIED IN ANY GREAT DETAIL, AND I
THINK THERE'S A LOT OF HAND WAVING AS TO HOW THOSE
NUMBERS CAN BE TRANSFERRED WHEN, IN FACT, SOME OF
THOSE NUMBERS DON'T EXIST. SO---
Q. BUT YOU DO BELIEVE, AS YOU SIT HERE -- CAUSE I
THINK YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY AND MAYBE EVEN -- I
GUESS YESTERDAY -- THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A
HAS FUNCTIONED AS AN EFFECTIVE SINK FOR NUTRIENTS
FOR THAT PERIOD OF TIME, HAVEN'T YOU?
A. I BELIEVE THAT AREA HAS FUNCTIONED AS A SINK, BUT
IT HAS -- IT'S NOT FUNCTIONED -- ITFS FUNCTIONED
IN SOME WAYS THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN SOME PEOPLE
MAY SURMISE.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR BELIEF IS THAT WE DON'T
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 345
UNDERSTAND 2A?
A. NOT AS WELL AS WE -- NOT AS WELL AS WE MIGHT. AND
WE DON'T UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE VARIABILITIES THAT
HAVE TAKEN PLACE TO GET TO THOSE RATES. IT'S NOT
AS SIMPLE AS SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT OUT
TO BE, IN TERMS OF A BLACK BOX, FOR EXAMPLE.
Q. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE BLACK BOX -- YOU TALKED
ABOUT THAT YESTERDAY, ALSO -- ARE YOU REFERRING TO
THE CONCEPT OF A MASS BALANCE, WHERE YOU MEASURE
THE PHOSPHORUS IN AND THE PHOSPHORUS OUT? IS THAT
WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
A. WELL, QUITE OFTEN, THAT CAN BE ONE WAY IN WHICH
PEOPLE LOOK AT IT. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE
MECHANISMS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE INSIDE. THERE
ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE
MECHANISMS INSIDE THAT AREA.
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE
MECHANISMS---
A. I HAVE, MY STAFF HAS.
Q. --- FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS.
A. ROUGHLY.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERS?
A. WE HAVE SOME.
Q. OKAY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 346
A. WE HAVE QUESTIONS, TOO.
Q. I GUESS -- I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU, WHERE I'M
DRIVING IS, IS THAT WITH THE ENR, HOW MANY ANSWERS
DO YOU NEED BEFORE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING?
A. WELL, I THINK I SAID AT SEVERAL MEETINGS, THERE
ARE SOME MAJOR QUESTIONS THAT -- WE KNOW A LOT.
I'M NOT SAYING WE'RE NOT -- WE'RE NOT DEVOID OF
INFORMATION; WE KNOW A LOT. BUT THERE ARE A LOT
OF QUESTIONS -- AT LEAST IN MY MIND -- AND I JUST
HAVE -- I'M NOT FAMILIAR A LOT OF THE INFORMATION
THAT PEOPLE MAY HAVE THAT I HAVEN'T SEEN. SO,
I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST, BUT I
HAVEN'T BEEN SHOWN, NOR HAVE I SEEN AT PUBLIC
MEETINGS, I DON'T SEE CLEAR DATA ON RETENTION
TIMES AND FLOW RATES THROUGH THE SYSTEM. I DON'T
SEE -- I SEE ONLY -- YOU KNOW, THE OPTIMUM WOULD
BE IF WE HAD -- I THINK THE ACCRETION DATA IS
QUITE GOOD. I THINK WE HAVE SOME SHC@RING UP TO DO
IN THAT AREA, SOME REFINING, BUT I THINK WE HAVE A
PRETTY GOOD HANDLE ON THAT. I THINK THE WATER
CONCENTRATION DATA IS NOT SO GOOD. AND IT WOULD
BE NICE IF WE HAD TWENTY-SIX YEARS OF'
CONCENTRATION DATA FOR THAT AREA. IU' WOULD BE
VERY NICE IF WE HAD FLOW DATA FROM THE GATES TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 347
SEVERAL POINTS IN THERE; WE DON'T HAVE THAT DATA.
IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE HAD WATER DEPTHS, OTHER
THAN ONE STATION SITTING IN THE MIDDLE, AND A FEW
OTHER SPARSE PARTIAL RECORDS; WE DON'T HAVE THAT,
AND SO YOU COULD GO ON AND ON. THERE ARE A NUMBER
OF THESE QUESTIONS THAT, TO ME, ADD UNCERTAINTY AS
TO WHETHER OR NOT ONE WILL HAVE THE SAME -- AND,
OF COURSE, THE ENR PROPERTY IS BUILT ON FORMER
AGRICULTURAL LAND, VERY DEEP PEATED LAND, AND LAND
THAT HAD BEEN FARMED PRIOR TO THIS. SO, WE HAVE
SOME QUESTIONS ON THE SORPTION OF PHOSPHORUS, THAT
WE HAVE SOME LABORATORY STUDIES ON, BUT WE DON'T
HAVE TOO MANY -- TOO MUCH DATA ON THAT.
AND THEN THE OTHER COMPONENT IS THAT WATER
CONSERVATION AREA 2A GOES DRY, AND WE NEED TO TEST
THE EFFECTS OF DRY AND WET PERIODS.
Q. HOW DEEP IS THE PEAT AT THE ENR?
A. OH, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, BUT IT'S I THINK IT'S
SEVERAL METERS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I COULD BE WRONG; IT MAY BE A METER AND A HALF,
BUT IT'S -- IT MAY BE SEVERAL METERS.
Q. OKAY. YOU'VE INDICATED THAT YOU THINK THAT
THERE'S A PAUCITY OF DATA FOR SETTING UP THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 348
STA'S. IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. I SAID WE HAVE SOME COMPONENTS.
Q. RIGHT.
A. WE BASICALLY HAVE COMPONENTS TO -- FOR CERTAIN
AREAS, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT I
THINK WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE. THE ENIZ PROJECT, IF
THIS IS TO BE A SUCCESS, AND IT'S TO BE DONE
RIGHT, AND IF THERE WAS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT -- IF
I THOUGHT PERSONALLY THAT, IN FACT, THE EVERGLADES
WAS GOING TO CEASE TO EXIST TOMORROW BECAUSE OF
IMMEDIATE THREAT -- ONE MIGHT MOVE FORWARD WITH
THIS, BUT -- ON A VERY RAPID -- WHAT I CALL FAST
TRACK. BUT I DON'T THINK THE EVIDENCE IS AT HAND
THAT THIS IS A -- THIS IS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO
THE EXISTENCE OF THE EVERGLADES.
Q. OKAY. I THINK I DO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU FEEL THAT
WAY. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WINDOW OF' TIME IS FOR
ADDRESSING THESE PROBLEMS?
A. WHEN YOU SAY "WINDOW OF TIME," DO YOU MEAN HOW
MUCH DO TIME DO WE HAVE---
Q. THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT TIME PROBLEMS, RIGHT.
RIGHT.
A. WELL, I WOULD THINK WE HAVE AT LEAST A DECADE THAT
WE COULD DEAL WITH THIS, MAYBE MORE. THAT'S NOT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 349
TO SAY THAT I DON'T RECOMMEND BMPIS AND REDUCING
PHOSPHORUS AT THE SOURCE AS MUCH AS TECHNOLOGY AND
ECONOMICS WILL ALLOW TO BE DONE.
Q. BUT, IN ESSENCE, IF I UNDERSTOOD YOU CORRECTLY,
YOUR CLIENTS REALLY REJECTED THAT ADVICE FROM THE
BEGINNING. THEY HAVE BEEN COMPELLED UNDER STATE
LAW TO REDUCE BY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25%), BUT
YOU WERE NOT ENCOURAGED NOR COMMISSIONED TO DO
RESEARCH IN THE EAA ON BMP'S, WERE YOU?
MR. GREEN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM.
MR. BURGESS:. OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
MS. PONZOLI: I'M SURPRISED.
A. I WASN'T ASKED TO DO RESEARCH IN THE EAA. AS I
SAID, I HAD A FULL PLATE IN THE WATER CONSERVATION
AREA.
Q. YOU WERE ASKED TO DO BMP'S IN THE WATER
CONSERVATION AREAS, THOUGH, WEREN'T YOU?
A. YEAH. IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, MY
A. LONG-TERM GOAL IS TO BASICALLY COLLECT ENOUGH DATA
TO BASICALLY LOOK AT GIVING GUIDANCE -- AND WHICH
IS STARTED OUT TO DO -- TO WORK -- AS YOU WILL
FIND FROM SOME OF MY EARLY LETTERS IN THERE -- TO
WORK WITH THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AND TRY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 350
TO COME UP WITH SOME -- WITH DATA THAT I THOUGHT
WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, THAT WOULD HELP THEM. I SAW
IT AT THAT TIME, AND STILL SEE IT AT THIS TIME, AS
A TEAM EFFORT THAT THAT DATA CAN BE UTILIZED TO
HELP WITH SOME MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES, ALBEIT THAT
ALL SCIENCE DOESN'T LEAD TO EVERY -- IMMEDIATELY
TRANSFERABLE MANAGEMENT PIECES. I MEAN, SOME DOES
AND SOMETIMES DOES NOT.
Q. THIS WAS RESEARCH GEARED TOWARD MANAGEMENT GOALS,
IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. IN TERMS OF MY VIEW---
Q. YES.
A. --- YES. I BASICALLY -- MY PROPOSAL WAS WRITTEN --
I SHIFTED THE PROPOSAL IN TERMS OF WHAT I THOUGHT
WAS APPROPRIATE, BECAUSE MY GOAL IS BASICALLY TO
MAKE SURE THE EVERGLADES EXIST IN THE FUTURE, TOO.
SO, I SHIFTED COMPONENTS OF THIS TO WHAT I THOUGHT
WOULD BE HELPFUL IN TERMS OF THE SCIENCE THAT
WOULD GIVE US BETTER INFORMATION TO HELP MANAGE
THOSE SYSTEMS, IN TERMS OF VEGETATION AND WATER,
AND UNDERSTANDING THE DYNAMICS OF PHOSPHORUS.
OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE NUTRIENTS, MY
UNDERSTANDING FROM YOUR GOALS, AS STATED
THROUGHOUT MULTIPLE DOCUMENTS, IS THAT YOU WERE,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 351
AND STILL ARE, LOOKING TO SEE HOW MUCH PHOSPHORUS
THIS SYSTEM CAN HOLD AS A SINK. IS THAT A FAIR
STATEMENT?
A. THAT'S ONE OF THE GOALS. I THINK IT'S THE SECOND
GOAL OR WHATEVER, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WE HAVE
TEN YEARS, MAYBE MORE, BEFORE YOU WOULD FEEL THERE
WAS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT, WOULD THAT -- WOULD WE
HAVE AN IMMEDIATE THREAT IN TEN YEARS?
A. NO, I JUST USED THAT FIGURE. AS I SAID, I DON'T
FEEL THERE IS A THREAT.
Q. A THREAT, OR AN IMMEDIATE THREAT?
A. WELL, AFTER THIRTY PLUS YEARS OR FORTY YEARS OF
EAA RUNOFF, WE HAVE -- AND I SAID BEFORE, IT
APPEARS TO ME THAT THERE IS A TWO OR THREE PERCENT
(2% OR 3%) AREA THAT HAS BEEN EFFECTED. AND IT IS
STILL -- EVEN THOSE AREAS ARE STILL FUNCTIONING AS
WETLANDS, ALBEIT THEY MAY BE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT IN
THEIR FUNCTIONS THAN THEY WERE, SOME POSITIVE
ASPECTS OF THAT, WHICH WE'VE ALLUDED TO IN OUR
REPORTS. BUT I WOULDN'T SAY JUST TEN YEARS; I
THINK IT'S VERY HARD TO SAY TEN YEARS. BUT I -- I
WOULD SAY MY PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT IS THAT WE'RE
NOT UNDER AN IMMEDIATE THREAT FROM PHOSPHORUS AS A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 352
MAJOR THREAT TO THE EVERGLADES -- AT LEAST THE
EVIDENCE I HAVE. I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE
LOXAHATCHEE, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN IN THERE. I
CAN'T SPEAK TO THE PARK, BECAUSE I'VE NOT BEEN
ALLOWED TO GO IN THERE.
Q. SO, YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) IS REALLY
WATER CONSERVATION -- THE DAMAGE IN WATER
CONSERVATION AREA 2A AND 3A?
A. IT MAY INCLUDE SOME OF 1, TOO, BECAUSE I BELIEVE
ON SOME OF THE FLY-OVERS AND SOME OF THE
PHOTOGRAPHS I'VE LOOKED AT INCLUDED 1. AND SOME
OF THE LANDSAT STUFF, I THINK I'VE LOOKED AT IN
GENERAL WAYS, I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW MUCH OF THE
PARK IT INCLUDES. I ACTUALLY VISITED THE PARK IN
AN EARLY MEETING AT THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK,
AND SPENT SOME TIME LOOKING AT THEIR REMOTE
SENSING PHOTOGRAPHS EARLY ON. THEY WERE ACTUALLY
MAPPING ALL THE EVERGLADES PARK---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- SO, I KNEW SEVERAL OF THE STUDENTS SO I SPENT
SOME TIME TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THAT AND LOOKING
AT THEIR---
SO, YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) IS BASED
ON THE LANDSAT INTERPRETATION?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 353
A. IT'S BASED ON SOME OF THAT, AND SOME OTHER
ASPECTS, YES, AND SOME OF THE -- IT'l@3 A SORT OF A
COMPILATION OF THINGS.
Q. WHAT ARE THE OTHER ASPECTS THAT IT'S BASED ON?
A. OH, DOCUMENTS THAT I'VE REVIEWED, AN[) SOME OF MY
PERSONAL OVER FLIGHTS, AND I THINK SOME OF
LARSON'S INFORMATION THAT I HAVE SEEN.
Q. HIS VEGETATION---
A. RIGHT. FOR---
Q. --- MAPPING?
A. --- FOR ONE LOCATION.
Q. IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. 2A.
Q. DID YOU USE THAT INFORMATION FOR SETTING UP YOUR
TRANSECTS IN THE BEGINNING FOR THE GRADIENT
STUDY?
A. I CAN'T -- NO, I THINK -- I'M TRYING TO THINK. I
THINK WE STARTED -- THE WAY I STARTEE) THAT WAS,
ESSENTIALLY, CHRIS CRAFT AND I, WE DID OUR -- SORT
OF WHAT I CALL OUR REGIONAL SURVEY. WE ACTUALLY
TOOK PLOTS IN VARIOUS PLACES, IN 2 A14D IN 3, AND
LOOKED AT VEGETATION AND LOOKED AT SOME SOIL. SO,
WE HAD SORT OF A VIEW. WE WERE IN ALLIGATOR ALLEY
AND WE WERE DOWN AT THE TWELVE STRUCTURES, AND WE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 354
WERE NEAR THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND WE WERE IN THE
CENTER OF 2A, AND SO WE LANDED AND SAMPLED AT A
VARIETY OF PLACES. I LOOKED AT STEVE DAVIS' --
SOME EARLY REPORTS. I LOOKED AT DISTRICT REPORTS.
I LOOKED AT SOME AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS, THAT I
REMEMBER. THEN I TOOK A SERIES OF FLIGHTS ON THE
GROUND -- DROPPED IN ON THE GROUND, LOOKED AT
THAT. AND THEN I ESTABLISHED THE GRADIENT.
Q. YOU, PERSONALLY?
A. I, PERSONALLY.
Q. OKAY. WE'LL GET INTO THAT LATER; I DON'T WANT TO
DO THAT NOW.
A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT I ESTABLISHED EVERY SINGLE
POINT, BUT I PERSONALLY LAID IT OUT, AND THEN
DID -- I CAN'T REMEMBER. I DON'T -- I DIDNFT KEEP
FIELD NOTES ON THAT, BUT I THINK SOMEBODY -- YOU
HAVE SOME OF MY RECORDS, ACTUALLY. I'VE NEVER
GONE BACK AND COUNTED. MY GRAD STUDENTS MAY ARGUE
THAT I DISAPPEARED ON ONE OR TWO OF THOSE
LOCATIONS, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER.
OKAY. IN DETERMINING YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT
(2% TO 3%) OF THE AREA THAT HAS SUSTAINED HARM OR
DAMAGE, WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU USING, WHAT DATA ARE
YOU USING?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 355
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
A. WHAT DATA AM I USING IN TERMS OF PROJECTING TWO OR
THREE PERCENT (2% OR 3%)?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. IT'S ONLY A -- AS I SAID, I USED, I THINK, SOME
AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS; I DID SOME GROUND TRUTHING; I
USED---
Q. WERE THE AERIAL PHOTOS PRODUCED TO THE UNITED
STATES AMONG YOUR EVERGLADES DOCUMENT?
A. SOME OF THEM WERE. I THINK THERE ARE SOME JUST
GENERAL AND CLASSIFIED LANDSAT PHOTOS THAT ARE IN
THERE.
Q. DID YOU JUST RUN A LITTLE EIGHT BY TEN BLACK AND
WHITES, THEY WERE REDUCED TO? CAUSE I CERTAINLY
DIDN'T GET ANY COLOR REPRODUCTIONS.
A. WELL, I THINK THERE'S SOME COLORED ONES IN THERE.
THERE MAY BE SOME COLOR SLIDES IN THERE.
Q. OKAY. AMONG YOUR COLORED SLIDES, THERE MIGHT
BE---
A. THERE MAY BE SOME IN THERE. BUT THERE ARE ALSO
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE -- THE ERIM SLIDES.
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T HAVE THE ERIM
SLIDES; THOSE WERE PRIVILEGED, 'IS THAT
WHAT -- THOSE WERE HELD BACK, MR. BURGESS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 356
MR. BURGESS: YES. I BELIEVE THEREFS
FIVE OR SIX.
MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU HAVE NOT --
YOU HAVEN'T DECIDED WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO
USE THOSE OR NOT, OR YOU'RE NOT USING THEM,
OR---
MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK WE'VE
DECIDED. I'LL REEXAMINE THAT IN LIGHT
OF HIS TESTIMONY WITH RESPECT TO HAVING
REVIEWED THOSE SLIDES IN ADDITION TO OTHERS
TO SUPPORT HIS TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO
13%) FIGURE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
(BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE TWO TO
THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) FIGURE, WHEN YOU'RE
LOOKING AT A LANDSAT IMAGE, WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU
USING TO DETERMINE THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO
19%) AREA THAT'S HARMED OR DAMAGED?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS WITNESS HAS SAID
THAT THERE WAS HARM OR DAMAGE. I THINK
HE SAID THERE WERE AREAS WHERE THERE WAS
SOME BENEFITS, AND THERE WERE SOME
CHANGES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 357
MS. PONZOLI: YES, HE DID SAY BENEFITS,
MR. GREEN, I WAS GOING TO ASK HIM ABOUT --
MR. GREEN: WELL, I -- AND, AGAIN ---
MS. PONZOLI: --- THE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF
IT.
MR. GREEN: SURE.
MS. PONZOLI: I"M VERY INTERESTED IN HOW
THESE AREAS HAVE POSITIVELY BENEFITED FROM
THIS.
MR. GREEN: BUT MY POINT IS, HE NEVER
USED THE WORDS HARMED OR DAMAGED; YOU DID.
MS. PONZOLI: HE DIDN,T OBIJECT TO THEM
EITHER, WHEN HE ANSWERED THE QUESTION
PREVIOUSLY.
MR. GREEN: NO, BUT I DID.
MS. PONZOLI: I REMEMBER.
MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.
WITNESS: I'M SORRY. WHERE ARE WE
NOW?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) HAVE WE IMPROVED TWO TO THREE
PERCENT OF THE EVERGLADES, DR. RICHARDSON, IS THAT
YOUR OPINION, THAT TWO TO THREE PERCENT OF THE
TOTAL EVERGLADES IS NOW BETTER BECAUSE OF THIRTY
YEARS OF EAA RUNOFF?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 358
A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT.
Q. I DON'T THINK YOU DID EITHER. ARE TWO TO THREE
PERCENT (2% TO 3%) AFFECTED AS FUNCTIONING
EVERGLADES?
A. FUNCTIONING EVERGLADES -- I THINK THI-,Y'RE STILL
FUNCTIONING AS PART OF THE EVERGLADES, IF YOU'RE
ASKING THAT QUESTION, YES.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT -- THEN WHAT IS YOUR
STANDARD FOR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)? TWO
TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) ARE WHAT?
A. THE BASIS FOR THAT WOULD BE PRIMARILNF---
Q. WHAT ARE THEY? MY QUESTION IS, WHAT ARE TWO TO
THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)? YOU'VE PLACED THEM IN A
DIFFERENT CATEGORY FROM OTHER EVERGLADES.
A. WELL, PRIMARILY, THE VEGETATION, OR ON SOME OF
THE LANDSAT PHOTOS YOU'VE SEEN THE COLOR INFRARED,
OR SOME OF THE ERIM PHOTOS HAVE USED THE DIFFERENT
SYSTEM TO BASICALLY -- WITH GROUND TRUTHING
BASICALLY -- CATEGORIZE VEGETATION TYPES, WHICH IS
TYPICALLY DONE WITH REMOTE SENSING, SO---
Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT. WHAT ARE THEY, THOUGH? I KNOW
THERE'S VEGETATION THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES.
WHAT IS THIS VEGETATION?
A. WELL, PRIMARILY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN AREA THAT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 359
IS PRIMARILY SHIFTED INTO CATTAIL AREAS.
Q. OKAY. HAVE THEY LOST HABITAT VALUE?
A. THAT'S -- I THINK OUR REPORTS FROM THAT, I THINK
YOU WILL -- YOU DEPOSED DR. RADER. 'I THINK WE'VE
LOOKED AT IN TERMS OF SOME TROPHIC LEVEL DYNAMICS.
IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THERE WAS BEE14 DRAMATIC
SHIFTS FROM, LET'S SAY, SAWGRASS TO CATTAIL,
BECAUSE THEY -- YOU KNOW, THE EVERGLADES IS A VERY
HARSH ENVIRONMENT. IT'S AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT
PLACE TO MAKE A LIVING. AND AS I MENTIONED TO
YOU, PHOSPHORUS IS A LIMITING NUTRIENT AND SO IT
ACTUALLY ENDS UP BEING A SUBSIDY FOR SYSTEMS THAT
IT'S ADDED TO, UP TO A POINT. AND SC) YOU END UP
WITH INCREASES IN MANY THINGS. IN FACT, I THINK
WE'VE REPORTED -- DR. RADER -- I THINK, SIX OR
SEVEN TIMES INVERTEBRATES AND FISH.
Q. THESE ARE IN OPEN WATER ENRICHED AREAS, ISN'T THAT
ACCURATE, DR. RICHARDSON? DR. RADER'S WORK WAS
DONE IN OPEN WATER---
A. YES.
Q. --- ENRICHED AREAS?
A. YES.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THIS TWO TO THREE
PERCENT (2% TO 3%) OF THE TOTAL EVERGLADES THAT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 360
YOU'RE TESTIFYING IS OPEN WATER ENRICHED AREA?
A. I WOULDN'T KNOW THE PERCENTAGE. I DON'T KNOW THE
PERCENTAGE OF IT OFFHAND. I HAVENFT GROUND
TRUTHED THE PERCENTAGE OF THAT.
Q. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT IT IS SOME INFINITESIMAL
FRAGMENT?
MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.
A. IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OPEN WATER.
I MEAN, THERE'S STANDING WATER THERE. ARE YOU
TALKING ABOUT OPEN BODIES OF CLEAR WATER, IS THAT
WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO?
Q. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE AREAS THAT DR. RADER DID HIS
WORK IN.
A. WELL, HE DID -- DR. RADER DID WORK IN CATTAIL, IN
SAWGRASS, AND IN THE SLOUGHS.
Q. BUT HE DID THEM IN OPEN WATER. HE HAS TESTIFIED
OVER AND OVER IN HIS DEPOSITION, DR. RICHARDSON,
THAT THEY WERE IN OPEN WATER ENRICHED SITES,
AND---
A. RIGHT. WELL, HE'S -- HE'S DONE -- TO MY
KNOWLEDGE, HE HAS DONE SOME IN CATTAIL AND
SAWGRASS, TOO. BUT IF HE'S TESTIFIED HE'S DONE
MOSTLY IN OPEN WATER, THAT'S FINE.
ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 361
PERCENTAGE OF THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)
THAT THOSE -- THOSE AREAS ARE?
A. I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT FIGURE, NO.
Q. OKAY. WILL YOU AGREE THAT IT IS SOME VERY SMALL
FRACTION OF THE ENRICHED AREA?
A. I WOULD AGREE IT'S A SMALL FRACTION.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT POSITIVE BENEFITS,
YOU ARE REALLY REFERRING TO THE INCREASED
MACROINVERTEBRATES THAT DR. RADER FOUND IN THESE
ENRICHED SITES, ARE YOU NOT?
A. WELL, THAT'S ONE ASPECT. BUT INCREASED
PRODUCTION, INCREASED CARBON STORAGE---
Q. YOU CONSIDER THAT A BENEFIT TO AN OLIGOTROPHIC
SYSTEM?
A. INCREASED CARBON STORAGE, I CONSIDER A BENEFIT.
ESPECIALLY AS AN ECOLOGIST FOR ALL THE GLOBAL C02
PROBLEMS WE HAVE, I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT
ASPECT. I THINK IT'S -- THOSE AREAS HAVE BEEN
FUNCTIONING AS AN -- THERE'S A CERTAIN INCREASE IN
NUTRIENT STORAGE, I THINK. SO, THEY'VE BEEN USING
THIS -- THEY HAVE A BENEFIT THERE.
Q. IS IT YOUR RECOMMENDATION TO THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT THAT THEY'VE GOT THIS ALL WRONG, AND
THAT WE OUGHT TO ENCOURAGE THE EAA TO SEND MORE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 362
NUTRIENT RUNOFF INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION
AREAS?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
A. I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE SUGGESTED THAT. I THINK I
HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY SHOULD CONSIDER BMP'S,
AND THAT PHOSPHORUS SHOULD BE REDUCED WHERE IT
CAN BE REDUCED.
Q. WHY?
A. BECAUSE I THINK IN TERMS OF THE EVERGLADES ITSELF,
THE PHOSPHORUS ITSELF PROBABLY SHOULD BE KEPT TO A
MINIMAL IN THAT STATE IF THE GOAL IS TO TRY TO
RESTORE, I GUESS, SOME OF THOSE AREAS.
Q. RESTORE THEM INTO WHAT?
A. WELL, THAT IS THE QUESTION, RESTORE THEM TO
WHAT.
Q. WELL, WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION?
A. WELL, TRY TO RESTORE THEM BACK TO SOME COMPONENT
OF WHAT WAS THERE. IN SOME PLACES, .-IT WAS A
HABITAT THAT HAS BEEN TOTALLY DESTROYED BY THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT -- WILLOW HABITATS, TREE
ISLANDS.
THIS IS THE HYDROLOGY ISSUE THAT YOU'RE REFERRING
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 363
TO?
A. RIGHT.
Q. UH-HUH (YES). SO, IS IT YOUR RECOMMENDATION TO
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IT RIP OUT THE CENTRAL
AND SOUTHERN FLORIDA FLIGHT CONTROL PROJECT?
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. I THINK THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OUGHT TO SERIOUSLY CONSIDER
IF THEY WANT TO GIVE THE PUBLIC A FAIR VIEW OF
HOW THEY WANT TO MAINTAIN THE EVERGLADES, TO
LOOK AT HOW WATER IS DISTRIBUTED IN SOUTH
FLORIDA.
SO, YOUR RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT COMMISSION RESEARCH, OR A STUDY OF HOW
TO IMPROVE THE HYDROLOGY?
A. I BELIEVE THEY COULD DO THAT. I BELIEVE THEY
COULD LOOK AT CERTAIN COMPONENTS OF THE DRAINAGE
SYSTEM. AND I BELIEVE THEY COULD STOP PUMPING
MASSIVE VOLUMES OF WATER TO THE GULF AND TO THE
ATLANTIC.
Q. WOULD YOU RECOMMEND STORING IT IN THE LAKE, IS
THAT YOUR RECOMMENDATION?
A. I HAVE -- I HAVEN'T FORMULATED ALL MY FINAL
OPINIONS AS TO HOW I WOULD LIKE TO SEE -- I'M
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 364
THINKING ABOUT THAT AS A LANDSCAPE VIEW OF HOW
SOUTH FLORIDA SHOULD BE TREATED. BUT WATER IS
FIRST AND FOREMOST THE REAL MAJOR ISSUE, THE
DISTRIBUTION AND ALLOCATION OF WATER. AND IT'S MY
OPINION THAT THE KISSIMMEE AND LAKE OKEECHOBEE
AND THE EVERGLADES HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT ON A
LANDSCAPE VIEW. AND, AS I'VE SAID BEFORE
PUBLICLY, I THINK IT'S TRUE, PEOPLE HAVE MANAGED
WATER IN SOUTH FLORIDA FOR EVERYTHING BUT THE
EVERGLADES. SO, THEY HAVE BEEN MANAGING IT FOR --
WHICH HAS BEEN FEDERALLY MANDATED. THAT HAS BEEN
THE FEDERAL MANDATE. I'M NOT BLAMING ANYONE FOR
NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW, BUT I'M NOT SAYING ONE CAN
WAKE UP ONE MORNING AND LOOK AT -- SEE THE
EVERGLADES IN SOME STATE OF WATER STRESS AND THEN
BE SURPRISED.
Q. IF I'M HEARING YOU CORRECTLY, DR. RICHARDSON, IT
SOUNDS AS THOUGH YOU INTEND FOR TRIAL -- AND I
BELIEVE YOU DID SAY YESTERDAY THAT YOU ARE FORMING
A. A LANDSCAPE VIEW OF THIS ENTIRE SYSTEM AND WILL
TESTIFY AS TO THAT. IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. I MAY DO THAT.
Q. AND YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD HAVE THIS READY IN
A MONTH? DID YOU GIVE ME A TIME FRAME WHEN YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 365
THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE THIS FINAL OPINION
READY?
A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I DID.
Q. WELL, WHEN DO YOU THINK YOUFRE GOING TO HAVE IT
READY?
A. I'M NOT SURE. IT DEPENDS UPON HOW MUCH
INFORMATION AND HOW MUCH TIME I CAN SPEND ON THIS;
BUT MAYBE NINE MONTHS, SIX MONTHS, SOMETHING LIKE
THAT, I WOULD HAVE.
Q. AND WHICH OF YOUR EXPERIMENTS WILL YOU BE RELYING
UPON TO HELP FORM THIS VIEW THAT HAS HYDROLOGIC
DATA IN IT?
A. AS I THINK I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, A LARGE PORTION
OF THIS DATA EXISTS IN THE DATABANKS OF THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE GOVERNMENTS.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, JUST A COUPLE OF CLEANUP
QUESTIONS ON WHAT WE HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT. WHAT
WAS THE CRITERIA YOU USED IN INTERPRETING THE
LANDSAT IMAGES TO IDENTIFY THESE AREAS WITH
CATTAIL? WAS THERE A PERCENTAGE OF CATTAIL THAT
IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE?
A. I BELIEVE A PORTION OF THAT WAS RELATED TO THE
LARSON REPORT. WE USED -- I DID NOT PERSONALLY DO
THAT SURVEY. I WENT TO THOSE AREAS -- SOME OF
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 366
THOSE AREAS, I BELIEVE, ONCE OR TWICE. I WAS
ACTUALLY -- LARSON MAY HAVE BEEN WITH ME. WE WERE
IN THE SAME AREAS. I WAS SETTING UP TRANSECTS.
SO, WE KNEW WE WERE DETERMINING THE SAME AREAS,
BUT I DID NOT DO THE INTERPRETATION OF THE
MAPPING.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND I DID NOT DO THE SURVEYS, OTHER THAN THE
SURVEYS THAT I MENTIONED WE HAVE ONGOING, WHICH I
HAVE NOT MAPPED. AND SO, I RELIED ON THE
INFORMATION FROM LARSON. I ALSO RELIED ON SOME
DATA FROM THE DISTRICT. AND I RELIED ON SOME
INFORMATION FROM ERIM. I PERSONALLY DID NOT SIT
AND DO A DATABASE COMPARISON. SO, THOSE NUMBERS
I'M GIVING YOU ARE BALLPARK FIGURES.
I'M REALLY CONFUSED, AND MAYBE IT'S JUST, YOU
KNOW, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WELL ENOUGH. I CAN
UNDERSTAND THAT MR. LARSON SAID THIS AREA IS FIFTY
PERCENT (50%) CATTAIL, OKAY?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. I THINK HIS MAPS MAY INDICATE SOME---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. --- PERCENTAGES, I CAN'T REMEMBER. I KNOW HE
LISTED---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 367
A. RIGHT.
Q. --- VEGETATION TYPES.
A. CORRECT.
Q. WHEN WOULD YOU COUNT IT AS BEING INCLUDED IN THIS
TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)?
A. PROBABLY IF IT WAS FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE.
Q. FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE. BUT YOU WOULD
CONSIDER UP TO FIFTY PERCENT (50%) AN UNIMPACTED
EVERGLADES AREA?
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
A. I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU MEAN BY
UNIMPACTED. I MEAN, IT COULD BE -- I'M
THINKING -- I'M TRYING TO THINK OF THE AREA SOUTH
OF THE 2A, I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT AS AN IMPACTED
AREA. I BELIEVE THE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE
WAS DEFINED AS A MONOCULTURE -- MORE IN THE
MONOCULTURE STATE. I THINK THAT WAS THE
DEFINITIONS WE MAY HAVE USED AT THAT TIME. AND,
THEN, THE BELOW THE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) WAS JUST
AN AREA THAT HAD BEEN IMPACTED. SO, I THINK THAT
TOTAL AREA WAS LIKE -- AND I'M ONLY GIVING YOU THE
SPECIFICS OF THE NUMBERS THAT I CAN REMEMBER---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- IT MAY HAVE BEEN FIVE THOUSAND ACRES -- WELL,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 368
ABOVE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MAYBE MORE OF THAT
MONOCULTURE AREA---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND THEN BELOW THAT NUMBER, THERE WAS ANOTHER
RANGE MAYBE OF THE IMPACTED AREA -- AND I CAN'T
REMEMBER, IT MAY HAVE BEEN AN ADDITIONAL -- I JUST
DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS, LIKE, SEVENTEEN THOUSAND,
FIFTEEN THOUSAND, SIXTEEN THOUSAND. I CAN'T
REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER. SO---
Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING YOU BELIEVE YOU INCLUDED BOTH OF
THOSE?
A. I BELIEVE BOTH OF THOSE WERE INCLUDED, YES.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE POSITIVE
BENEFITS TO THAT FIVE THOUSAND MONOCIJLTURE -- FIVE
THOUSAND ACRES OF CATTAIL MONOCULTURE?
A. WELL, I THINK -- I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE
IT TO ALL BE NEGATIVE. I THINK SOMEHOW IF YOU
PULL TOGETHER A NUMBER OF ECOLOGISTS AROUND THE
COUNTRY, YOU WOULD NOT FIND IT -- I WOULD BE HARD
PRESSED TO THINK SOMEONE WOULD CONSIDER EVERY
ASPECT OF CATTAIL. IT IS NOT THE MOST EVIL
SPECIES; IT'S A VERY COMMON WETLAND PLANT.
Q. WELL, SURE. SURE.
A. SO, IT IS NOT -- WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 369
KNOW, THE MOST POISONOUS, TOXIC ORGANISM ON THE
FACE OF THE EARTH. IT IS -- IT IS A---
Q. IS THAT OUR STANDARD? IS THAT THE STANDARD WE
WOULD USE IN MAINTAINING BIOTIC DIVERSITY AND --
WHAT ARE THE STANDARDS? YOU'VE EXPRESSED BIOTIC
DIVERSITY IN ECOSYSTEM FUNCTIONING FOR THE
EVERGLADES. WOULD THAT BE OUR STANDARD?
A. WELL, THE CATTAILS ARE PERFORMING A FUNCTION.
THEY'RE PERFORMING MANY OF THE SAME FUNCTIONS.
THEY EXISTED IN THE EVERGLADES. THERE'S SOME
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FROM MY FORMER PROFESSOR, JOHN
HENRY DAVIS, WHEN HE DID HIS EARLY MAPS, THERE MAY
HAVE BEEN SOME AREAS -- LARGE AREAS. THERE WAS
ONE AREA THAT'S -- I DON'T KNOW -- T@EN, FIFTEEN
THOUSAND ACRES THAT MAY -- MAY HAVE BEEN -- IN
FACT, IT'S LISTED AS A CATTAIL FERN AREA. THESE
AREAS COULD EXIST. I'M NOT SURE WHY THAT ONE
EXISTED. IT WASN'T RELATED TO AGRICULTURE, AS FAR
AS I CAN TELL. IT MAY HAVE BEEN DUE TO A NUMBER
OF REASONS, BUT THIS IS NOT -- IF YOU WENT BACK
THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, IT MAY VERY WELL BE THAT
CATTAILS WERE ONE OF THE DOMINATE SPECIES IN SOME
OF THE AREAS. I DON'T KNOW.
OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IS THE ISSUE, AS YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 370
SEE IT, ONE OF HOW MUCH CATTAIL MONOCULTURE OR
HEAVILY CATTAIL MIX EVERGLADES THE STATE OF
FLORIDA WISHES TO MAINTAIN AND HOW MUCH
OLIOGOTROPHIC FAIRLY NON-CATTAIL EVERGLADES THE
STATE OF FLORIDA WISHES TO MAINTAIN?
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF --
I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT'S A QUESTION, BUT I
OBJECT TO IT.
A. DO I SEE THAT AS THE ISSUE?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. IT COULD BE THE ISSUE FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA. I
MEAN, IT'S A POSSIBILITY FOR SURE.
Q. DO YOU EVER THINK OF IT IN THOSE TERMS? I MEAN,
YOU'VE GOT THIS BIG EXPANSE OF -- QUOTE --
"EVERGLADES" OUT THERE, AND---
A. WELL, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL
-- WHEN MY ORIGINAL MEETINGS WERE, WAS THE FACT
THAT IT WAS THE PUBLIC'S PERCEPTION AND MANY
INDIVIDUAL'S PERCEPTIONS THAT THE EVERGLADES WAS
TURNING INTO A GIANT CATTAIL MARSH, AND THERE WAS
GREAT CONCERN. AND IF IT WAS TURNING INTO A GIANT
CATTAIL MARSH, I THINK THERE WOULD BE: SOME REALM
FOR CONCERN.
Q. BUT IF IT HAS POSITIVE BENEFITS, WHY IS THERE A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 371
REALM FOR CONCERN?
A. WELL, THERE -- I'M SURE -- I THINK IN TERMS OF
MAGNITUDE -- AGAIN, THIS IS VALUE JUDGMENTS -- BUT
I'M SURE, MYSELF INCLUDED, YOU'D LIKE TO MAINTAIN
SOME OF THE NATIVE SPECIES THAT EXIST IN THE
EVERGLADES, AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY REASONABLE
GOAL FOR ESPECIALLY PARK AND PRESERVES, AND SO ONE
WOULD DO SO---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND THE QUESTION RELATES TO MAGNITUDE. SO, AS
I WAS TELLING YOU EARLIERF WE TOOK A LOOK AT, AND
I TRIED TO GET AN ESTIMATE. AND, BASICALLY, I
THINK WE'RE SPENDING A LOT OF TIME ON THIS
PARTICULAR ISSUE, WHICH IS FINE, BUT I THINK THE
CATTAIL ISSUE IS A MINOR PROBLEM IN THE
EVERGLADES. I DON'T THINK IT -- YOU MAY HAVE
NOTICED, OR YOU WILL NOTICE, I GUESS,, IF YOU GO
THROUGH SOME OF MY DOCUMENTS, THAT WAS AN EARLY
FOCUS. BUT IT'S PROBABLY -- YOU KNOW, I THINK
IT'S BEEN WAY OVERBLOWN. I THINK IT'S NOT A MAJOR
PROBLEM; IT IS A LOCALIZED PROBLEM. AND THE
PROBLEM MAY BE THAT IF IT'S THE CATTAILS ARE ONLY
IN YOUR -- IF YOU ONLY HAVE FIVE SQUARE FEET, AND
THE CATTAILS ARE IN YOUR FIVE SQUARE FEET, AND YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 372
DON'T WANT THEM THERE, THAT MAY BE A PROBLEM. BUT
IN THE MAGNITUDE OF THE WHOLE EVERGLADES ISSUE, I
THINK IT'S A VERY MINOR PROBLEM.
Q. OKAY. WHAT MAGNITUDE OF CHANGE WOULD YOU BELIEVE
MOVED OUT OF THIS MINOR PROBLEM CATE(;ORY?
A. WELL, I THINK WHEN YOU DIVERT HALF THE WATER
SUPPLY FOR SOUTH FLORIDA, YOU'VE MOVED INTO A
MAJOR CATEGORY. WHEN YOU PUMP HALF THE WATER TO
THE OCEAN AND HALF TO THE GULF OF MEXICO
CONTINUALLY SINCE THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, AND PUT
IN FIFTEEN HUNDRED MILES OF CANALS, IF YOUR GOAL
IS TO MAINTAIN ANY RESEMBLANCE OF THE EVERGLADES,
YOU HAVE CREATED A CATASTROPHIC CHANGE TO THE
SYSTEM.
Q. BUT WHAT MAGNITUDE OF CHANGE IN THE EVERGLADES
WOULD MOVE BEYOND THIS MINOR CONCERN THAT YOU SEE
AS THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT PROBLEM? LET ME
MAKE --- LET ME GET SOMETHING CLEAR----
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT---
Q. --- DR. RICHARDSON, LET ME MOVE -- I'LL COME BACK
TO THAT QUESTION. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DO YOU SEE
THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT PROBLEM TO THE EVERGLADES
AS THE SAME THING AS THE CATTAIL PROBLEM? ARE
THEY THE SAME? ARE YOU DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 373
THOSE TWO?
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
A. I DON'T THINK THEY GO TOTALLY HAND IN HAND. I
THINK THERE'S A DELAY FACTOR. I THINK THERE --
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, AS I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, TO
SEPARATE WATER FROM PHOSPHORUS. AND SO,
THEREFORE -- AND HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE RESEARCH
WILL POINT THIS OUT. I AM NOT SURE IF YOU
STRICTLY ADD -- WELL, LET'S DO IT IN REVERSE. IF
YOU STOP THE FLOW OF -- IF YOU JUST PUT WATER
INTO, LET'S SAY, WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, AND
TOOK OUT, LET'S SAY, MOST OF THE PHOSPHORUS, WHAT
WOULD HAPPEN TO THAT PARTICULAR SYSTI;,M? I THINK
IT WOULD STAY PRETTY MUCH AS IT IS FOR A VERY LONG
TIME. IF YOU KEPT THE WATER REGIME WITHIN
WITHIN THE BOUNDS AS IT IS NOW.
SO, I THINK IF YOU ADDED NUTRIE14TS AND KEPT
IT WITHIN SOME STABLE COMPONENT WHERE IT IS, IT
WOULD STAY; IT MAY CHANGE SLIGHTLY.
SO, WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IN THAT PARTICULAR
COMPONENT, IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE OUT THAT ONCE
YOU -- ONCE THE SYSTE M IS IN THAT PARTICULAR
STATE. AND, SO, THESE DYNAMICS -- THERE'S A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 374
CONFUSION AS TO WHAT HAPPENS IN A SYSTEM, AND WHAT
YOU SEE IS THERE TODAY IS THE RESULT OF WHO GOT
THERE FIRST AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS. AND HOW
YOU ALTER THAT -- THOSE CONDITIONS -- CAN AFFECT
WHAT GOES. BUT WHAT REALLY IS IMPORTANT IS WHO
GOT THERE FIRST.
Q. BUT YOU'RE TELLING ME IT'S REALLY PRETTY HARD TO
FIGURE OUT WHO GOT THERE FIRST?
A. WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON WHEN YOU---
Q. DIDN'T YOU TELL ME YESTERDAY YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW
IF WE CAN SEPARATE OUT THE HYDROLOGY FROM THE
NUTRIENTS?
A. I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIES; WHICH SPECIES GOT THERE
FIRST.
Q. OH, OH, WHICH SPECIES GOT THERE FIRST. OKAY. DO
YOU SEE THE VALUE OF THOSE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE
AREAS FOR HABITAT AS OF EQUAL VALUE AS THE, LET'S
SAY, THE AREAS AT THE BOTTOM OF, PERHAPS, 2A OR
INTO 3A, EQUAL HABITAT VALUE?
A. THEY ARE PROBABLY OF EQUAL HABITAT VALUE TO THE
SAWGRASS.
Q. WHERE THE SAWGRASS HAS BEEN CROWDED OUT IN THE
NORTHERN END, IT'S OF EQUAL HABITAT VALUE?
A. I DON'T THINK THAT WAS YOUR QUESTION TO ME. I
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 375
THOUGHT YOU SAID DID I SEE THE HABITAT VALUE OF
THE CATTAILS IN THE NORTH AS EQUAL TO THE HABITAT
VALUES IN THE SOUTH.
Q. RIGHT. SO, YOU'RE SAYING -- OH, AS FAR AS -- AS
FAR AS BIRDS AND FISH AND OTHER CREATURES, YOU'RE
SAYING THAT A CATTAIL MONOCULTURE IS OF EQUAL
HABITAT VALUE---
A. WELL---
Q. --- AS SAWGRASS MONOCULTURE?
A. --- I HAVEN'T ANALYZED THE CATTAIL COMPLETELY IN
THAT. I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE TO TALK TO DR. RADER
IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE INVERTEBRATE AND FISH
COMPONENTS TO GET HIS EXPERT OPINION ON THAT.
I'M SIMPLY TELLING YOU THAT, IN FACT, FROM MY
EXPERIENCE DOWN THERE LOOKING AT CATTAIL AND
LOOKING AT SAWGRASS, SAWGRASS IS NO PLEASANT
SPECIES TO WORK WITH, OR TRY TO FORAGE ON, OR TRY
TO SURVIVE WITH. AND, SO, I SEE -- NOR AM I
SUGGESTING THAT I WANT THE ENTIRE EVERGLADES TO BE
CATTAIL, BY ANY MEANS. BUT I'M SIMPLY SAYING THAT
I DON'T THINK ONE CAN EQUATE CATTAIL AS BEING ALL
BAD, AND SAWGRASS BEING ALL GOOD.
Q. HAS ANYONE DONE THAT?
A. NO. BUT I'M SAYING THAT.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 376
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. OKAY, DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THE WAY CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS -- OR ARE YOU
AWARE OF OTHER SCIENTISTS HAVING FOUND A
DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY THEY APPEAR TO SUCCEED IN
RELATION TO THE OPEN WATER AREAS? DO YOU
UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?
A. THERE ARE SEVERAL COMPONENTS, YES, RELATED TO
THAT. BUT, I MEAN, IT'S VERY COMPLEX. YOU CAN BE
TALKING ABOUT WATER DEPTH---
Q. NO, I'M TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE CATTAILS
ACTUALLY INVADING---
A. CORRECT---
Q. --- OR MOVING---
A. --- BUT THAT RELATES---
Q. --- INTO THE OPEN WATER SOUGHS.
A. THAT RELATES TO THE DEPTH OF WATER.
Q. RIGHT.
A. THAT RELATES TO WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THERE ARE
SPECIES ALREADY PRESENT. AND ITFS NEVER JUST A
ONE-WAY STREET. CATTAILS MAY INVADE A PARTICULAR
AREA, AND THEN THERE MAY BE A DROUGHT, OR THERE
MAY BE A FIRE, OR THERE MAY BE A FREEZE, AND THEY
MAY---
Q. RECEDE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 377
A. ---RECEDE, AND THEN THEY MAY COME BACK, AND SO
FORTH. THEYFRE A VERY AGGRESSIVE SPECIES.
THEY'RE AN OPPORTUNIST SPECIES. THEY HAVE A
DIFFERENT SORT OF ECOLOGICAL---
Q. HOW IS THAT RELATIONSHIP OF THE CATTAIL TO THE
DEPTH OF THE WATER; WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP?
A. WELL, CATTAIL SURVIVE BETTER IN DEEPER WATER, FOR
EXAMPLE, THAN SAWGRASS. SAWGRASS HAS DIFFICULTY
SURVIVING IN DEEPER WATER.
Q. WILL THE CATTAIL SURVIVE IN DEEPER WATER IF THERE
ARE VERY, VERY LIMITED NUTRIENTS?
A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT KIND OF VERY, VERY
LIMITED NUTRIENTS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. THEY DO
SURVIVE IN SOME AREAS WITH LOW NUTRIENTS. THEYFRE
NOT AS PRODUCTIVE AS SOME OF THE OTHER SPECIES
THAT CAN COME INTO THOSE AREAS. BUT, PRIMARILY,
IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW THEY BECOME ESTABLISHED.
Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, WHERE HAVE YOU FOUND
CATTAILS AND VERY LOW NUTRIENTS IN THE EVERGLADES?
AND I WANT TO GET THE NUMBERS OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER
LOW NUTRIENTS, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY---
A. SURE.
Q. --- AN ISSUE OF DEBATE BETWEEN US. BUT JUST WHAT
YOU WOULD CONSIDER VERY LOW NUMBERS, AND WHERE YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 378
WOULD FIND CATTAIL, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT
AREAS YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY EXIST IN THE
EVERGLADES.
A. WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2B.
Q. OKAY.
A. THAT'S THE---
Q. ALONG THE NORTHERN PORTION?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. AND IN WHAT MIX ARE THEY IN THE AREA THAT
YOU'RE REFERRING TO? THIS IS ON THE WESTERN, THE
EASTERN, THE MIDDLE, WHERE?
A. ABOUT IN THE MIDDLE.
Q. THE MIDDLE. OKAY. AND WHAT MIX DO YOU BELIEVE IS
CATTAIL, IS IT FIFTY, SIXTY?
A. NO, IT'S A SMALL PERCENTAGE. I'M NOT SURE. WE
ARE CURRENTLY ANALYZING SOME OF THAT DATA, AND IT
MAY BE -- I'M JUST GUESSING -- I DON'T KNOW --
FIVE PERCENT, TEN PERCENT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE THE NUTRIENT LEVELS IN, LET'S
SAY, SURFACE WATER?
A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS, WHAT
THEY ARE. GENERALLY IN THAT AREA WHEN WE HAVE
DONE THEM, THE WATER CONCENTRATIONS FOR -- ARE YOU
SAYING NUTRIENTS OR JUST---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 379
Q. JUST PHOSPHORUS.
A. PHOSPHORUS.
Q. YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR ME. I MEAN, THIS
IS YOUR AREA.
A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT WOULD BE FIFTEEN,
TWENTY -- MAYBE A LITTLE -- LESS PARTS PER
BILLION.
Q. OKAY. FIFTEEN TO TWENTY PARTS PER BILLION SURFACE
WATER. AND THE PORE WATER, DO YOU HAVE ANY
NUMBERS FOR THE PORE WATER?
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK. I WOULD HAVE
TO -- I DON'T -- I DON'T HAVE THAT AT MY
FINGERTIPS.
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE DATA THAT WILL SUPPORT THIS?
A. YES, I DO.
Q. OKAY. HOW MUCH?
A. SEVERAL YEARS WORTH OF DATA.
Q. OKAY. ARE THERE ANY OTHER AREAS IN THE
EVERGLADES, THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF, WHERE YOU WOULD
SAY THAT THERE ARE LOW NUTRIENTS AND CATTAILS?
YOU'RE SAYING FIVE TO TEN PERCENT?
A. I HAVEN'T DONE -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, ACTUALLY
I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE KIND OF AN INTERESTING
FIRST LOOK TO BASICALLY DO THAT, AND TO LOOK AT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 380
CATTAILS AND LOOK AT THE NUTRIENTS AND TRY TO DO
THAT.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. BUT WHEN I MADE MY PRESENTATION -- MY FIRST
PRESENTATION TO THE EPD, TOM MacVICAR -- I THINK
THIS IS ON PUBLIC RECORD -- JUMPED ALL OVER ME
AND THIS PROPOSAL, BY SAYING THAT THE SOUTH
FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DID NOT CONSIDER
THE CATTAIL ISSUE A MAJOR ISSUE ANY MORE, AND THAT
THIS WAS -- THIS PROJECT WAS WEIGHED WAY TOO
HEAVILY TO LOOK AT CATTAILS, AND THAT THERE WERE
OTHER ISSUES ON THE TABLE. AND, AS YOU KNOW, HE
SITS -- HE SAT, AT THAT TIME, AS AN ADVISOR -- YOU
MAY NOT KNOW -- AS ADVISOR TO THAT EPD. AND ALSO
AT THAT TIME SUGGESTED THAT WE NOT DO ANY WORK
WHATSOEVER IN THE HOLEYLAND. AND, SO, OUR
ORIGINAL PROPOSAL WAS ACTUALLY SHIFTED BY THE
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT TO NOT
DO THAT. SO, WE -- AND SINCE I HAD SOME IDEA
THAT CATTAIL -- AND I HAD BEEN LOOKING AT SOME
OF THAT -- WAS NOT THE MAJOR ONE -- AND I MET
WITH WOODY AND TOM AND TALKED ABOUT THIS, I
GUESS, IN VERY GENERAL TERMS -- BUT THAT
MEETING SET THE TONE FOR REALLY REDUCING SORT OF
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 381
A SURVEY, IN A SENSE, OF THOSE ISSUES. SO, I
STOPPED IT.
Q. IT SEEMS THE VILLAIN IS SHIFTING AROUND THE TABLE
HERE.
MR. BURGESS: NO, THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN
ON YOUR SIDE.
MS. PONZOLI: SO YOU SAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING TOTAL
PHOSPHORUS WHEN YOU SAID FIFTEEN TO TWENTY PPB.
ARE YOU TALKING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS FOR THIS AREA IN
2B, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. IN SURFACE WATERS?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS. I
DON'T KNOW -- I'M DOING THIS -- YOU HAVE OUR DATA
ON THIS; IT'S IN THE FILE SOMEWHERE. I---
Q. I THOUGHT THAT WAS ORTHOPHOSPHATE?
A. IT COULD VERY WELL BE. I JUST DON'T I DON'T
REMEMBER.
Q. WOULDN'T THAT MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, WHICH
TYPE OF PHOSPHORUS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?
A. NOT IN TERMS OF AVAILABILITY TO PLANTS. THE TOTAL
PHOSPHORUS IS KIND OF A WORTHLESS NUMBER.
Q. IS THAT WHY EVERYONE'S USING IT AND TALKING IN THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 382
SWIM PLAN AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, I MEAN---
A. IN MY OPINION, THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE LAWYERS
RUNNING THIS AND NON-SCIENTISTS WHO DON'T
UNDERSTAND---
Q. I SEE.
A. --- HOW PLANTS AND---
Q. I SEE.
A. --- ANIMALS FUNCTION; AND USING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS AS
A NUMBER FOR A STANDARD MAKES NO SENSE.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU THINK THAT LAWYERS ARE RUNNING ALL
THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT SCIENCE, AND THAT---
A. WELL, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, AT LEAST.
Q. OH, WE'RE RUNNING THE SCIENTISTS AT THE WATER
MANAGEMENT? IS THAT YOUR ACTUAL BELIEF,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. NO, I'M JUST BEING FACTITIOUS, BUT I DO THINK
THERE'S A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT FORMS OF
PHOSPHORUS ARE CRITICAL TO PLANT GROWTH; THERE
SEEMS TO BE. BUT IT'S TYPICAL OF VERY MUCH --
VERY MUCH STATE AND FEDERAL AGENCIES OF SETTING
SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN MEASURE SIMPLY. IT'S JUST
A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO MEASURE. IF YOU TAKE AN
AIRBOAT OUT TO THE EVERGLADES AND TRY TO MEASURE
TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, YOU CANNOT -- AND YOU STOP THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 383
AIRBOAT, AND SAY, THE WATER'S A FOOT DEEP, I CAN
GET YOU ANY TOTAL PHOSPHORUS NUMBER YOU WANT
PROBABLY WITHIN A RANGE OF -- DEPENDING UPON THE
AREA, YOU KNOW, THREE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE ALMOST;
DEPENDING ON HOW YOU DO IT. AND SO I THINK THAT
THE UNFORTUNATE CASE IS YOU CAN -- YOU HAVE
DIFFICULTY WITH TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SO YOU HAVE
TO BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN YOU ANALYZE YOUR SAMPLES,
AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT YOU STORE
YOUR SAMPLES. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH
IT---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND AGENCIES ARE NOTORIOUS FOR HAVING MANY
PEOPLE COLLECT THEM UNDER VARIOUS CONDITIONS, AND
NUMBERS TURN OUT TO BE NOT SO GOOD.
Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT WATER QUALITY DATA IS, IN
GENERAL, NOT SO GOOD?
A. I WOULD SAY THAT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH
THEY HAD TO COLLECT IT AND ON THE BASIS OF WHICH
THEY DID, IT'S -- IT'S OKAY. IT'S NOT
SCIENTIFICALLY OF HIGH QUALITY, IN MY OPINION.
IT'S OKAY.
Q. CAN YOU MAKE MANAGEMENT DECISIONS BASED ON IT?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 384
A. SOME.
Q. VERY LIMITED?
A. NO. BUT I THINK IT RELATES BACK TO THE TOTAL
PHOSPHORUS/ORTHOPHOSPHORUS QUESTION, AND, YOU
KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING TO USE---
Q. YEAH. WELL---
A. --- IT GIVES YOU A BALLPARK FIGURE.
Q. --- WELL, FOR WHATEVER COMFORT IT IS TO YOU, I
HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED TO ANY SCIENTIST WHAT FORM OF
PHOSPHORUS TO MEASURE ANYTHING IN. THEY HAD TO
TEACH ME WHAT THE DIFFERENT FORMS WERE, TO
WHATEVER EXTENT THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL. AND I
DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE LAWYERS AT THE WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, BUT I HAVEN'T FOUND THEM
MUCH MORE CONVERSANT IN PHOSPHORUS FORMS THAN I
AM---
A. OH, I'M NOT SURE THAT THEY PERMEATED THAT---
Q. --- SO ---
A. --- I JUST THINK TOTAL PHOSPHORUS HAS BEEN ON
THE BOOKS FOR MANY STATES FOR MANY AREAS FOR A
LONG TIME, AND IT'S JUST SOMETHING PEOPLE NORMALLY
DO.
Q. ALL RIGHT. THIS PHOSPHORUS NUMBER THAT YOU DON'T
KNOW IF IT'S TOTAL PHOSPHORUS OR ORTHO, THAT YOU
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 38S
SAY WE HAVE THE DATA FOR, IS IT AT YOUR FERTILIZER
SITES IN---
A. IT'S IN AND AROUND THE FERTILIZER SITES, THAT'S
CORRECT.
Q. IN AND AROUND. INSIDE THE PLOTS?
A. AND OUTSIDE THE PLOTS.
Q. OKAY. AT THE MIXED SITE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT. WELL, OTHER SITES, TOO, WE HAVE
IT FROM ALL THREE SITES.
Q. YEAH, BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT WAS THE SITE WHERE
YOU COULD SHOW LOW NUTRIENTS AND CATTAILS?
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I THINK IT -- WELL, LET ME JUST
CLEAN UP A COUPLE OF POINTS HERE. DID YOU DO THE
TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) ESTIMATE; ARE YOU
THE ONE WHO DID THAT?
A. I MAY HAVE DONE THE -- I MAY HAVE DONE THE
CALCULATION, GIVEN THE TOTAL ACREAGE, AND FIGURED
OUT WHAT WAS THE DENOMINATOR FOR THE TOTAL AREA
I CAN'T REMEMBER -- BUT I THINK OTHER PEOPLE HAVE
IT'S NOT A
DONE THAT. IT'S NOT A NUMBER THAT
NUMBER THAT I CAREFULLY SAT DOWN, AND VERY
CAREFULLY CALCULATED EVERY SECTION OF IT. AS
I SAID, I HAVE WORKED WITH A NUMBER OF PEOPLE;
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 386
AND THROUGH A NUMBER OF MEETINGS AND A NUMBER OF
MAPS AND DIFFERENT THINGS, I CAME UP WITH THAT
FIGURE.
Q. OKAY. WHO WERE THE PEOPLE AT THIS MEETINGS? WHO
ELSE HELPED YOU COME UP WITH THIS---
A. OH, JUST FOR THIS NUMBER?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. THERE WAS NOT A PARTICULAR MEETING SET UP TO COME
UP WITH THAT NUMBER. IT WAS SORT OF, AGAIN,
SERENDIPITY. I'D GO TO A MEETING AND SOMEONE
WOULD SAY, HERE'S A MAP THAT SHOWS THIS AREA, AND
I WOULD WRITE DOWN A NUMBER ROUGHLY, AND THEY
WOULD SAY IT COVERS "X" NUMBER OF ACRES. SO, I
JUST COMPOSITED THESE PIECES OF INFORMATION. AND
THEN THE ERIM INFORMATION---
Q. WHO DID THE INTERPRETATION OF THE ERIM, THOUGH;
DID YOU?
A. THE ACTUAL INTERPRETATION WAS DONE BY ERIM.
Q. OKAY. AND -- BUT WHO IS THE PERSON? THERE'S A
BODY WHO INTERPRETS A SATELLITE IMAGE.
A. IT'S A YOUNG LADY, BUT I DON'T KNOW HER NAME---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I REALLY DON'T.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT FORM OF PHOSPHORUS IS USED
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 387
IN TEXTBOOKS TO DEFINE TROPHIC STATUS?
A. WELL, I SUPPOSE IT DEPENDS ON THE AREA. IN SOME
PLACES, THEY USE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SOME USE
ORTHOPHOSPHORUS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IS
ORTHOPHOSPHORUS USUALLY IN THE EVERGLADES --
ORTHOPHOSPHATE? I'M SORRY.
A. IT DEPENDS ON SEASON, TIME, AREA. I THINK OUR
STUDIES -- I THINK DR. QUALLS HAD SOME DATA WE PUT
IN A REPORT. I THINK IT RAN FROM FIFTY TO SEVENTY
PERCENT (50% TO 70%), SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE,
DEPENDING ON WHETHER THE GATES ARE OPENED AND
CLOSED, WHERE THE AREA WAS, SOMEWHERE IN THAT
RANGE.
MS. PONZOLI: I THINK WE'RE AT THE
TIME WE SAID WE WOULD STOP FOR LUNCH, SO
I'D LIKE TO STOP NOW.
MR. BURGESS: NO, WE'RE PAST THAT.
MS. PONZOLI: YEAH. WELL, WE'RE PAST
THAT.
MR. BURGESS: WHAT TIME DO YOU WANT TO
BE BACK -- TWO?
MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, TWO SOUNDS FINE.
(THEREUPON, A LUNCH
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 388
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU READY?
WITNESS: I'M READY.
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. OKAY, DR. RICHARDSON, RETURNING TO THE ISSUE OF
YOUR COMPENSATION, BOTH BY THE EPD AND DUKE
UNIVERSITY, WE HAD FOR -- THE BUDGET FOR 1993,
WHICH IS REPRESENTATIVE OF YOUR PRIOR BUDGETS, I
BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED, DIDN'T YOU? IT'S SIMILAR,
IT MAY BE A FIVE PERCENT (5%) INCREASE?
A. IT INCREASED. THERE'S A---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I THINK THERE'S A COST IN THE -- AN INCREASE.
THE ALLOCATION PATTERNS MAY DIFFER FROM YEAR TO
YEAR.
Q. ALL RIGHT. THERE REMAINS A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION
AS TO WHAT I CAN ASK YOU, BUT I'VE BEEN ADVISED BY
YOUR COUNSEL I CAN ASK YOU ONE QUESTION, AND THEN
YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO ANSWER THE
SECOND QUESTION. BUT LET'S DO THE FIRST QUESTION
THAT YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO ANSWER IF I DO IT
RIGHT. THE FORTY-SEVEN THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED AND
SEVENTY-NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($47,979.00) THAT
SET AS YOUR SALARY AND WAGE, WOULD BE WHAT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 389
PERCENTAGE OF YOUR TWELVE MONTHS' SALARY FROM DUKE
UNIVERSITY?
A. AS I SAID, IT'S DIFFICULT AT THIS TIME TO PROJECT
WHAT IT WOULD BE, BUT I CAN GIVE YOU A RANGE OF
WHAT IT WOULD BE, OKAY, OF WHAT PERCENTAGE IT
WOULD BE OF MY SALARY.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND IN THIS PARTICULAR YEAR, AS I SAID, I DON'T
KNOW WHAT IT WOULD BE. MAYBE -- IT WOULD BE, BY
UNIVERSITY POLICY, NO MORE THAN ONE-THIRD, AND IT
COULD RANGE FROM FIFTEEN -- I WOULD SAY FIFTEEN TO
THIRTY PERCENT WOULD BE A RANGE.
HAVE YOU HAD -- AND I DON'T HAVE EXACTLY THE
BUDGETS FOR EACH OF THE OTHER YEARS. WE CAN COME
TO THEM AMONG THE DOCUMENTS. BUT THE FORTY-SEVEN
THOUSAND, IS THAT ROUGHLY THE SALARY THAT YOU'VE
RECEIVED THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD OF TIME, 1989, 190,
'91, '92, FROM THE EPD?
A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT AMOUNT.
Q. WAS IT SOMETHING IN THE FORTY THOUSAND RANGE?
A. WELL, IT'S NO MORE THAN; IT MAY BE LESS THAN
THAT. BUT, AGAIN, IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT
THAT I DON'T -- AS I'VE TRIED TO EXPLAIN VERY
CLEARLY, AND RALPH MAY HAVE MENTIONED THIS TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 390
YOU -- YOU GET A BASE SALARY, THE SALARY COMES,
AND YOU'RE NOT SURE OF THE ALLOCATION FROM TIME TO
TIME.
Q. WELL, I THINK THAT IS THE SECOND QUESTION. WHAT
IS YOUR BASE SALARY---
MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECT.
Q. ---FOR -- WELL, I GUESS THE ONE THAT YOU -- DO YOU
KNOW YOUR BASE SALARY FOR 1993?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. YOU KNOW YOUR BASE SALARY FOR '92?
A. YES, I KNOW.
Q. OKAY.
MS. PONZOLI: MR. McCAUGHAN.
MR. McCAUGHAN: COUNSEL, I OBJECT ON
THE GROUNDS THAT ITFS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF
DISCOVERY HERE, AND NOT RELEVANT.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I'M GOING TO CERTIFY
THE QUESTION AND PURSUE HIS BASE SALARY,
BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A
FAIR UNDERSTANDING OF HIS COMPENSATION
WITHOUT IT, COUNSEL, BUT I APPRECIATE YOUR
EFFORTS TO TRY AND ACCOMMODATE OUR NEED FOR
DISCOVERY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, JUST TO SEE IF I
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 391
CAN HELP MYSELF JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE, DO YOU
REMEMBER IN 189 WHAT PERCENTAGE YOUR SALARY WOULD
HAVE BEEN OF YOUR TOTAL COMPENSATION FOR THE YEAR
FROM DUKE?
A. I'M SORRY, WOULD I REMEMBER?
Q. THIS PERCENTAGE, THIS RATIO, THIS FIFTEEN TO
THIRTY PERCENT (15% TO 30%), IT'S A FAIRLY LARGE
RANGE.
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK. I DON'T KNOW THE
UNIVERSITY -- I DON'T KNOW. IT WOULD -- I'M
TRYING TO GIVE YOU -- IT VARIES BY SEMESTER. IT
COULD VARY BY SUMMER, IT COULD VARY BY MONTH. I
MEAN, I KNOW, FOR AN EXAMPLE, ONE YEAR, I THINK I
HAD FOUR -- FOUR DIFFERENT GROUPS PAYING SOME OF
MY SALARY IN THE SUMMERTIME, AND SO I MIGHT GET
TWO WEEKS HERE, AND A WEEK THERE.
SURE. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
DOES THE EPD GRANT REPRESENT THE LARGEST GRANT
THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY AT THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER?
MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
COULD YOU RESTATE THAT? IT'S UNCLEAR TO
ME WHAT YOU'RE ASKING.
MS. PONZOLI: I'M ASKING IS THAT THE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 392
LARGEST GRANT, IN TERMS OF MONEY, THAT'S
GIVEN TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THE TOTAL?
MS. PONZOLI: TOTAL AMOUNTS OF MONEY---
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY.
MS. PONZOLI: --- RIGHT.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THANKS.
A. AT THE PRESENT TIME, I THINK IT WOULD BE. OVER
THE TOTAL, I HAVE RAISED AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF
MONEY, PROBABLY -- I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK
AT IT; I DON'T REALLY KEEP TRACK OF IT -- BUT
WE'VE HAD FAIRLY LARGE GRANTS FROM THE USDA AND
OTHER AGENCIES, THAT RUN INTO THE MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS.
Q. SURE. SURE. OKAY. I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH
THOSE, I GUESS, WHEN I DO YOUR CV, OR I HAVE
ANOTHER GRANT PROPOSAL, I'D LIKE TO GO THROUGH IT.
WAS THAT TRUE ALSO IN '92, 191, AND 190, AND '89,
THAT THE EPD GRANT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LARGEST IN
A. TERMS OF ACTUAL DOLLARS TO THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. WHICH YEAR WAS IT THE LARGEST? WHICH OF
THOSE YEARS WOULD IT HAVE BEEN THE LARGEST SINGLE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 393
GRANT?
A. IT'S HARD TO SAY, AS I DON'T -- I DON'T HAVE THAT
ALLOCATION. IT WOULD DEPEND ON -- WE -- FOR
EXAMPLE, I AM CO-DIRECTOR OF TOXICOLOGY, AND WE
HAVE A MILLION AND A HALF DOLLARS FROM NIH FOR---
Q. BUT, I MEAN, THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER.
A. I KNOW, BUT I'M CO-DIRECTOR OF THAT, SO I HELP
WRITE PORTIONS OF THAT. I HAD A THREE-QUARTER OF
A MILLION DOLLAR GRANT, I BELIEVE, FROM THE USDA.
WE HAVE SOME FOUNDATION GRANTS. SO, I DON'T HAVE
THAT ALLOCATION SET UP.
DO THESE GRANTS THAT YOU'RE MENTIONING, DO THEY
COME INTO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? THESE ARE
GRANTS TO THE DUKE WET---
A. FOR THE MOST PART, YES. YES, TO ME AND TO THE
WETLAND CENTER AS THE DIRECTOR.
Q. NO, NOT TO YOU, TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, THAT'S
THE ONE I'M TALKING ABOUT---
A. BUT I---
Q. --- NOT TO YOU PERSONALLY.
A. ---BUT I -- BASICALLY AS DIRECTOR OF THE WETLAND,
THEY WOULD COME TO THE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING -- YOU'RE KIND OF -- YOU'RE
HEDGING, AND MAYBE YOU DON'T MEAN TO HEDGE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 394
A. NO, I DON'T.
Q. ---MAYBE YOU DON'T MEAN TO, IT'S JUST COMING OUT
THAT WAY, AND SO IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME WHAT THE
ANSWER IS. SO, IF YOU CAN TAKE THE BASICALLYS
AWAY, AND JUST TELL ME, YES, THIS WAS THE LARGEST
GRANT I HAD IN 192; NO, IT WASNFT. THAT'S -- YOU
KNOW, IT'S A REAL STRAIGHTFORWARD ANSWER.
A. IN 192, I THINK THE ANSWER WOULD BE, YES.
Q. OKAY. IN '91?
A. I -- AFTER YOU GO BACK FROM 192, I'M NOT SURE,
BECAUSE I/D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AND SEE WHEN
CERTAIN GRANTS ENDED AND WHEN CERTAIN ONES
STARTED. IT MAY BE IN 191.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IN 190?
A. I DON'T KNOW IN 190. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND
LOOK.
Q. AND '89?
A. PROBABLY NOT.
Q. AND IN '88---
A. NO.
Q. --- THE FIRST YEAR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE
CAME IN?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS YOUR LARGEST GRANT IN '88?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 395
A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK. I DON'T---
Q. YOU DON'T KNOW, BUT YOU KNOW SOMETHING WAS LARGER
THAN THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. WELL, I HAD A VERY LARGE PROGRAM. IN f88, I WAS
DOING FAIRLY LARGE STUDIES ON WETLANDS IN NORTH
CAROLINA. I HAD A VERY LARGE ACID RAIN -- WHEN WE
GO THROUGH THE CV, A VERY LARGE -- I WAS DIRECTOR
OF THE ACID RAIN OZONE PROGP-M---
MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECTION. COULD WE
GO OFF THE RECORD?
MS. PONZOLI: SURE.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S GO BACK ON
THE RECORD. ACTUALLY, THAT WOULD BE BETTER
ON THE RECORD. WOULD YOU LIKE TO PUT IT ON
THE RECORD, MR. McCAUGHAN?
McCAUGHAN: YES. I OBJECT TO THE
QUESTION ON THE BASIS THAT IT MAY LEAD TO THE
REVELATION -- INADVERTENT REVELATION OF
CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT'S PROTECTED BY
CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS BETWEEN DUKE AND
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 396
CERTAIN PRIVATE SPONSORS OF RESEARCH. AND,
THEREFORE, I WILL INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO
RESPOND OR ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT MAY REVEAL
THE NAMES OF THOSE PARTIES OR THE AMOUNTS OF
THOSE GRANTS.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK WE'LL HAVE
TO TAKE IT QUESTION BY QUESTION, COUNSELOR---
MR. McCAUGHAN: FINE.
MS. PONZOLI: --- BECAUSE I -- I THINK
WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS YOU'RE SORT OF LEAVING
TO A NON-LEGAL WITNESS THE DECISION REGARDING
WHICH ANSWERS TO GIVE AND NOT. BUT JUST SO
DR. RICHARDSON AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR
INSTRUCTIONS, YOU'RE SAYING HE CAN ANSWER
QUESTIONS REGARDING PUBLIC GRANTS? IS THAT
ACCURATE---
MR. McCAUGHAN: GRANTS---
MS. PONZOLI: --- BUT NOT PRIVATE ONES?
MR. McCAUGHAN: --- GRANTS THAT ARE
FUNDED BY PUBLIC AGENCIES, WHETHER IT'S STATE
OR FEDERAL---
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: --- OR OTHER.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I UNDERSTOOD -- I
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 397
DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT MUCH OF A PROBLEM---
MR. McCAUGHAN: NO, I DON'T EITHER.
MS. PONZOLI: --- BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND
MOST OF HIS GRANTS TO BE PUBLIC GRANTS---
MR. McCAUGHAN: ABSOLUTELY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE THEY NOT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. THERE ARE SOME PRIVATE FOUNDATION GRANTS. I'VE
HAD SOME---
Q. BUT THE BULK OF YOUR GRANTS ARE PUBLIC, ARE THEY
NOT?
A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE YEAR. SOME OF THOSE, I
THINK, I HAD SOME FAIRLY LARGE PRIVATE FOUNDATION
GRANTS.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T
JUDGE AGAINST WHAT YOU CAN'T TELL US, SO I
THINK WE'LL JUST HAVE TO WORK THIS ONE
THROUGH, I GUESS.
THEN I WOULD CERTIFY MY RIGHT TO FIND
OUT THOSE PRIVATE FOUNDATION GRANTS. I DON'T
KNOW, I THINK IT'S -- YOU PUT CONSTRAINTS ON
THE QUESTION, OR THEY'RE HARD TO FOLLOW.
I DON'T BELIEVE IFVE BEEN ALLOWED THE
DISCOVERY THAT I NEED ON THIS POINT, AND I
WILL CERTIFY THOSE QUESTIONS, AND WILL PURSUE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 398
THEM, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THEY GO TO DISCOVERY
THAT'S APPROPRIATELY OURS.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'D LIKE TO BEGIN TO ASK YOU
SOME QUESTIONS ON SOME DOCUMENTS ABOUT THE DUKE
WETLAND CENTER, AND YOUR INITIAL WORK ON BEHALF OF
THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND THE EPD, AND I
WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AT, FIRST, THE EXPERT WITNESS
DOCUMENT THAT YOU PRODUCED, DR. RICHARDSON, CALLED
THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER.
MS. PONZOLI: AND IT'S -- I GUESS I CAN
JUST SHOW IT TO COUNSEL BECAUSE I ASKED THAT
THEY BRING THESE.
CAN WE GO OFF THE RECORD ONE SECOND?
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY
THIS DOCUMENT?
A. IT IS A TYPED VERSION OF THE WETLAND CENTER FLYER
THAT WAS PRODUCED.
Q. DID YOU AUTHOR THIS?
A. FOR THE MOST PART, I DID.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. THIS WILL BE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 399
MARKED AS RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 4 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. BURGESS: I JUST WANT TO STATE FOR
THE RECORD THAT IN CHECKING MY RECORDS, IT
DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE A DOCUMENT THAT I
PROVIDED TO THE UNITED STATES. I'M NOT
SAYING THAT'S---
MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT'S
TRUE?
MR. BURGESS: --- WITH DEFINITE
CERTAINTY. BUT I THINK IT PROBABLY CAME
FROM DR. RICHARDSONIS FILES, NOT AMONGST
THE---
MR. GREEN: SUZAN, DO YOU HAVE
ANOTHER COPY OF THAT, THAT I CAN LOOK AT?
MR. BURGESS: OF THIS THING?
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, MR. KILLINGER HAD IT
AMONG HIS EXPERT DOCUMENTS, SO I THINK YOU
PROBABLY DID PROVIDE IT. I DONFT THINK IT'S
A BIG DEAL.
MR. BURGESS: NO, I---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 400
MS. PONZOLI: I MEAN, IT'S THE SAME
THING AS HIS DUKE WETLAND CENTER, WHICH I'M
GOING TO HAND HIM IN TWO SECONDS. WHY DON'T
WE GO AHEAD AND DO THAT?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, I'M GOING TO
HAND YOU A BROCHURE, CAN YOU IDENTIFY---
A. YES, THAT'S---
Q. --- THAT DOCUMENT?
A. --- THAT'S THE CURRENT DUKE WETLAND CENTER FLYER.
MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE
TO MARK THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 5 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) AND I'D LIKE TO START, FIRST,
DR. RICHARDSON, AND ASK YOU WHEN THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER WAS FORMED?
A. WE HAVE HAD A DUKE PROGRAM SINCE MY ARRIVAL, OR
SHORTLY THEREAFTER, IN 1977, AND OFFERED COURSES
IN WETLANDS SINCE THE LATE "70'S. THE CENTER WAS
OFFICIALLY -- AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW, IT TAKES
TIME -- PROPOSED SOME TIME IN THE EARLY TO MID
'80'S AS A UNIVERSITY CONCEPT, WHICH I SENT