DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 201

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WE HAVE A PENDING QUESTION THAT,

 

 

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT COULD BE IMPROVED OVER

 

 

TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT?

 

 

A. AS I THINK I SORT OF HINTED, IF I DIDN'T, WITHOUT

 

 

REVIEWING THE DOCUMENTS IN MORE DETAIL, AND

 

 

LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DATA IN THE EAA, MORE

 

 

SPECIFIC DATA, I REALLY -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE

 

 

ARE SOME POSSIBILITIES THAT THEY COULD DO SO. I

 

 

THINK THERE MAY BE SOME OTHER MECHANISMS, THAT I

 

 

MENTIONED IN MY SECOND REPORT, THAT I THINK SHOULD

 

 

BE LOOKED AT, AND I STILL THINK THEY SHOULD BE

 

 

LOOKED AT, BUT WHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF

 

 

REDUCTIONS ARE, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN---

 

 

Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO OPINION AS TO HOW MUCH MORE THEY

 

 

COULD RAISE OVER TWENTY-FIVE---

 

 

A. RAISE?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: RAISE?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, LOWER -- I'M SORRY.

 

 

LOWER. RAISE THE PERCENTAGE OF REDUCTION, OR

 

 

WHATEVER. ANYWAY, LOWER THEIR PHOSPHORUS?

 

 

A. I DON'T HAVE A PERCENTAGE NUMBER IN MIND. I MEAN,

 

 

THERE ARE SOME OBVIOUS CHOICES IN SOME CASES, BUT

 

 

THE FARMERS HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, DECIDE, I MEAN,

 

 

SOME OF THOSE COMPONENTS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 202

 

 

 

 

Q. WHAT ARE THE OBVIOUS CHOICES?

 

 

A. WELL, I SUPPOSE THERE IS A SERIES OF STUDIES THAT

 

 

COULD BE DONE ON REDUCTIONS FOR, YOU KNOW,

VEGETABLE CROPS, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MUCH NUTRIENT

 

 

MATERIAL THEY COULD GET BY WITH. THERE ARE

 

 

STUDIES THAT COULD BE RECYCLING AND RECIRCULATING

 

 

WATER. THERE COULD BE SOME HOLDING PONDS THAT

 

 

COULD BE CONSIDERED. THERE COULD BE A VARIETY --

 

 

I MEAN, THERE ARE A WHOLE LIST OF TECHNIQUES, MOST

 

 

OF WHICH PEOPLE DON'T HAVE NUMBERS ON.

 

 

Q. THIS IS IN YOUR REPORT, YOU SAID?

 

 

A. SOME OF THOSE GENERIC AREAS ARE IN THE -- ARE

 

 

IN MY RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WAS IN MY SECOND

 

 

REPORT.

 

 

Q. WHEN YOU SAY YOUR SECOND REPORT, I THINK WE'RE A

 

 

LITTLE CONFUSED. DO YOU MEAN YOUR ANNUAL REPORT?

 

 

A. MY ANNUAL REPORT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHICH CHAPTER WAS THIS?

 

 

A. IT'S IN THE BACK.

 

 

Q. IN THE CONCLUSIONS?

 

 

A. I THINK THERE'S A SECTION CALLED RECOMMENDATIONS

 

 

OR SOMETHING.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND THESE, REDUCTION OF VEGETABLE CROPS AND

 

 

THE HOLDING PONDS AND WHATEVER ELSE YOU HAD

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 203

 

 

 

 

LISTED, WERE ALL -- YOU BELIEVE WERE LISTED THERE,

 

 

TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION WERE THERE?

 

 

A. I JUST SAID BMP'S IN A GENERIC SENSE.

 

 

Q. OKAY, OKAY.

 

 

A. I DIDN'T SAY WHICH SPECIFIC ONES. MY POINT THERE

 

 

IS SIMPLY THAT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER

 

 

ALTERNATIVES THAT CAN BE LOOKED AT. AND I THINK

 

 

THAT, YOU KNOW, ALL SIDES SHOULD BE LOOKING AT

 

 

OTHER ALTERNATIVES.

 

 

Q. SUCH AS? NOW, YOU SAID THERE ARE OTHER POSSIBLE

 

 

ALTERNATIVES, BUT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD US WHAT THEY

 

 

ARE. YOUFVE MENTIONED THE BMP'S, AND YOU SAID

 

 

THAT YOU THOUGHT DR. PATRICK'S PROPOSAL SHOULD BE

 

 

FUNDED AND FOLLOWED THROUGH ON, BUT WHAT OTHER

 

 

ALTERNATIVES DO YOU BELIEVE ARE VIABLE?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK I MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE SOME

 

 

HOLDING POND SCENARIOS, RECYCLING OF WATER WITHIN

 

 

THE SYSTEM, A REDUCTION OF UTILIZATION OF

 

 

NUTRIENTS. I THINK I MENTIONED THAT ONE. THERE

 

 

COULD BE TESTS DONE ON FORMS OF NUTRIENTS. BUT

 

 

THESE ARE -- THESE ARE NOT THINGS THAT YOU SIMPLY

 

 

ONE DAY TURN ON THE ANSWER AND GET THE ANSWER.

 

 

YOU NEED TO HAVE SOME SPECIFIC RESEARCH TAILORED

 

 

TO DO THIS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 204

 

 

 

 

Q. AND YOU RECOMMENDED AS FAR BACK AS 1989 THAT THE

 

 

INDUSTRY START DOING THAT?

 

 

A. I RECOM -- I'M SORRY.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I OBJECT TO 'I'HE

 

 

CHARACTERIZATION OF HIS TESTIMONY --

 

 

"DOING THAT."

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DOING RESEARCH ON 'I'HESE BMP OR

 

 

ALTERNATE REMOVAL FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS.

 

 

A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS, BUT

 

 

I -- IT MAY BE SOMETIME IN LATE 189 OR 190. AS I

 

 

SAID, I THINK THAT WAS MY -- SOMEWHERE IN THAT

 

 

TIME FRAME. BUT I DID NOT GIVE SPECIFIC --

 

 

SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS. I MEAN, I WAS NOT

 

 

ASKED TO, BUT I WAS TELLING THEM THAI' I THOUGHT

 

 

THAT WAS AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO APPROACH THIS, THAT

 

 

THEY SHOULD DO SO.

 

 

Q. IF YOU'RE CHECKING YOUR RECORDS, YOU MEAN YOUR

 

 

CALENDAR OF EVENTS---

 

 

A. UH---

 

 

Q. --- HOW DO YOU MEAN CHECK YOUR RECORDS? DO YOU

 

 

KEEP -- DO YOU KEEP LOGS THAT TELL YOU WHEN YOU

 

 

MET WITH PEOPLE?

 

 

A. NO, NOT PARTICULARLY. BUT I -- BUT I' MAY HAVE, IF

 

 

I WENT THROUGH AND LOOKED AT MY CORRESPONDENCE OR

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 205

 

 

 

 

SOMETHING, I MAY HAVE A WAY OF LOOKING TO SEE

 

 

WHAT -- YOU KNOW, I AM ACTUALLY NOT QUITE AS GOOD

 

 

AT THAT AS I SHOULD BE.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR MEETING WITH

 

 

MR. WEDGWORTH IN 1988, FOLLOWING MR. BARBER

 

 

RECOMMENDING YOU, HAVING MET YOU AT A WETLANDS

 

 

CONFERENCE, AND MR. WEDGWORTH AT THAT TIME WAS IN

 

 

THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. WHAT HAPPENED

 

 

AFTER THAT, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. AFTER OUR MEETING, OR DURING OUR MEETING, HE SAID

 

 

TO ME THAT, IN FACT, WHAT WE -- WHAT THAT --

 

 

MEANING THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS INTERESTED IN

 

 

WAS TO -- TO CONDUCT SOME RESEARCH. GEORGE HAS

 

 

ALWAYS BEEN FAIRLY, AT LEAST TO ME,

 

 

STRAIGHTFORWARD, IN THAT WE HAD TO FIND OUT THE

 

 

FACTS. WITHOUT THE FACTS, NO ONE COULD WE'D BE

 

 

ACTING BLINDLY ON THIS INFORMATION, 130 AND I

 

 

TOLD HIM THAT IF WE DID THIS RESEARCH, ONE, IT

 

 

WOULD HAVE TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. IT WOULD

 

 

HAVE TO BE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PUBLISH

 

 

THIS INFORMATION. WE DID NOT DO THIS INFORMATION

 

 

ANY OTHER WAY. HE SAID THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY NO

 

 

PROBLEM, AND -- BUT HE ALSO TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE

 

 

VISITING THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND SOME OTHER

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 206

 

 

 

 

 

 

INSTITUTIONS, AND SO THAT WE'D HAVE TO BASICALLY

 

 

DEVELOP A PROPOSAL, AND THEN THEY WOULD MAKE A

 

 

DECISION AFTER WE PRESENTED OUR PROPOSALS, WHAT WE

 

 

WOULD DO, AND THEN PROCEED FROM THERE. SO, WE

 

 

THEN WENT BACK -- I WENT BACK -- I SAY WE -- I

 

 

WENT BACK AND BASICALLY DEVELOPED A PROPOSAL TO

 

 

LOOK AT THE CATTAIL ISSUE. AND BASICALLY I CALLED

 

 

IT A PILOT STUDY, BECAUSE AT THAT TIME I FELT THAT

 

 

THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION, AS ANY ECOLOGIST

 

 

WOULD, YOU NEED TO -- I NEEDED TO GET MY OWN

 

 

BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON THE WHOLE STATE OF THE

 

 

EVERGLADES---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- SO, I PROCEEDED TO DO SO. AND---

 

 

Q. YOU DID A PROPOSAL TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. AND DO YOU BELIEVE YOU PROVIDED THAT TO US AMONG

 

 

YOUR DOCUMENTS?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO. IF I DIDN'T, I CAN SURELY PRODUCE

 

 

IT.

 

 

Q. WOULD YOU DO THAT? I WAS UNABLE TO LOCATE IT, AND

 

 

I JUST MUST HAVE PASSED BY IT, BUT THERE WERE A

 

 

FAIR NUMBER---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 207

 

 

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. ---AND THEY CAME IN TONS A DAY, FOR A PERIOD OF

 

 

TIME.

 

 

A. YEAH.

 

 

Q. OKAY. I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT IF YOU COULD BRING

 

 

THAT, ALONG WITH YOUR CURRENT CV---

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. --- AND MS. RAIKES' PAPER, IF YOU CAN GET THAT FROM

 

 

WHEREVER IT IS.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

MR. GREEN: HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT,

 

 

SUZAN. I MISSED THAT DEPO---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: RAIKES?

 

 

MR. GREEN: YEAH.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: R-A-I-K-E-S.

 

 

MR. GREEN: OKAY.

 

 

WITNESS: I DON'T BELIEVE HERE WAS A

 

 

DEPOSITION.

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, HER NAME CAME UP IN

 

 

A PRIOR DEPOSITION.

 

 

WITNESS: RIGHT, BUT I---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THAT MR. GREEN WAS HERE.

 

 

MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 208

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT WAS JANE RAIKES.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. I WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO

 

 

THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING, FROM YOUR PROPOSAL,

 

 

PROBABLY FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. BUT I WOULD

 

 

LIKE TO GO BACK, DR. RICHARDSON, TO THE LINE I HAD

 

 

PREVIOUSLY BEEN PURSUING, AS TO WHICH EXPERT

 

 

WITNESSES YOU HAD BEEN WORKING WITH ON BEHALF OF

 

 

THE LEAGUE AND THE COOPERATIVE, AND TRY TO FINISH

 

 

THAT UP TODAY.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. BECAUSE THATFS WHERE -- IT'S HOW WE ENDED UP GOING

 

 

DOWN THIS ROAD.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO FINISH UP THAT

 

 

DISCRETE AREA. I DON'T RECALL YOUR -- YOUR EXACT

 

 

PREVIOUS ANSWER AS TO WHOM YOU WERE WORKING WITH.

 

 

I THINK WE HAD GONE INTO -- YOU HAD DONE SOME

 

 

LITERATURE SEARCHES AND YOU'D MET WITH SOME

 

 

PEOPLE. I'D LIKE TO KNOW SPECIFICALLY, ARE THERE

 

 

EXPERTS WITH WHOM YOU CONSULT TO PREPARE EITHER

 

 

PRESENTATIONS, WHICH I THINK YOU DID SAY YOU HAD

 

 

DONE SOME OF THAT, DID YOU NOT?

 

 

A. DONE SOME PRESENTATIONS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, WHOM HAVE YOU CONSULTED WITH TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 209

 

 

 

 

DO PRESENTATIONS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: PRESENTATIONS TO WHOM?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHOM HAVE YOU DONE PRESENTATIONS

 

 

TO, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN I MAKE PRESENTATIONS, I

 

 

PRETTY MUCH DO THEM MYSELF, OR WITH MY STAFF.

 

 

AND WE DON'T -- WHAT WE PRESENT NORMALLY IS WHERE

 

 

WE -- USUALLY WE ARE ASKED TO -- AND IFLL TELL YOU

 

 

WHO IN A MINUTE -- WE ARE ASKED TO PRESENT OUR

 

 

CURRENT STATE OF KNOWLEDGE AND WHERE WE ARE ON

 

 

RESEARCH.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. AND, SO, I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY AUDUBON SOCIETY,

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, SOUTHERN FLORIDA

 

 

WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, NUMEROUS NATIONAL AND

 

 

INTERNATIONAL MEETINGS TO PRESENT INFORMATION.

 

 

Q. WETLANDS CONFERENCES OF ALL DIFFERENT---

 

 

A. WETLAND CONFERENCES ALL DIFFERENT TYPES.

 

 

Q. SIZES, SORTS AND SHAPES?

 

 

A. LECTURES AT VARIOUS UNIVERSITIES---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES). UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- HALF A DOZEN OF THOSE -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE

 

 

EXACT NUMBER -- AROUND THE COUNTRY, SPECIFICALLY

 

 

ON THIS EVERGLADES ISSUE, SO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 210

 

 

 

 

Q. HOW OFTEN DO YOU MEET -- WELL, WHOM 1)0 YOU MEET

 

 

WITH BEFORE YOU DO THESE? WHICH OF THE EXPERTS

 

 

FOR THE LEAGUE, OR THE COOPERATIVE, 1)0 YOU MEET

 

 

WITH PRIOR TO ANY OF THESE, SAGE OR SOUTH FLORIDA

 

 

WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, OR AUDUBON OR FLORIDA

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, ANY OF THEM, WHOM

 

 

HAVE YOU MET WITH?

 

 

A. OCCASIONALLY, I MEET ON SOME OF THOSE

 

 

PRESENTATIONS -- YOU KNOW, YOU WANT SPECIFIC

 

 

PEOPLE?

 

 

Q. I WANT SPECIFIC PEOPLE.

 

 

A. MOST OF THE TIME, I'D -- I'D HAVE TO GO IN

 

 

CHRONOLOGY, IT'S -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S

 

 

USUALLY TO -- TO BASICALLY GIVE AN OVERVIEW OF

 

 

WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY. SECONDLY, IT'S PEOPLE LIKE

 

 

ANDY RACKLEY. AT ONE TIME, IT WAS ED BARBER.

 

 

OCCASIONALLY, IT WAS BOB BUKER. AND SOME OF THE

 

 

OTHER PEOPLE, I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES. I

 

 

OCCASIONALLY HAVE MADE PRESENTATIONS TO THE EQC ON

 

 

MY RESEARCH.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER HAD -- HAS DR. DAVIS EVER

 

 

PARTICIPATED IN---

 

 

A. OH, YES.

 

 

Q. --- ANY OF THESE MEETINGS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 211

 

 

 

 

A. OH, YES, JOHN DAVIS. YES, DR. JOHN DAVIS HAS BEEN

 

 

AT THOSE MEETINGS.

 

 

Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON?

 

 

A. OH, NOT -- NOT VERY MANY OF THE MEETINGS THAT I'VE

 

 

BEEN AT THAT -- HAS HE BEEN AT. HE WAS -- HE MAY

 

 

HAVE BEEN AT ONE OR TWO, BUT NOT VERY MANY. I

 

 

HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT MOST OF THESE MEETINGS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DR. PATRICK, HAS HE EVER PARTICIPATED IN

 

 

ANY OF THESE?

 

 

A. HE HAS PARTICIPATED OCCASIONALLY.

 

 

Q. DR. POLLMAN?

 

 

A. ON -- I HAVE MET WITH -- MET WITH HIM

 

 

OCCASIONALLY, BUT NOT ON THESE MEETINGS---

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT---

 

 

A. --- NOT ON THOSE MEETINGS, NO.

 

 

Q. WHAT HAVE YOU MEET WITH DR. POLLMAN ON?

 

 

A. WE HAVE HAD SOME MEETINGS -- ONE IN GAINESVILLE,

 

 

AND ONE, I BELIEVE, OR MAYBE TWO AT DUKE.

 

 

Q. ON WHAT?

 

 

A. SPECIFICALLY TO -- TO -- TO LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE

 

 

BEEN DOING. THEY PRIMARILY -- IN FACT, BILL GREEN

 

 

CAME TO ONE OF THOSE MEETINGS, OR MAYBE TWO OF

 

 

THEM, TO -- BASICALLY, THEY WANTED TO BE BROUGHT

 

 

UP TO SPEED AS TO WHERE OUR RESEARCH WAS. AND, IN

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 212

 

 

 

 

FACT, THAT IS PART AND PARCEL -- MOST OF THE TIME

 

 

WHEN I MEET WITH PEOPLE, I'D SAY EIGHTY PERCENT --

 

 

I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT FIGURE -- THAT IS WHAT I'M

 

 

DOING. I AM BRINGING THIS GROUP UP TO SPEED OF

 

 

WHAT WE'RE FINDING.

 

 

Q. DO THEY EVER OFFER COMMENTS ON THE TONE OF YOUR

 

 

PRESENTATION, OR MAKE SUGGESTIONS AS TO THE

 

 

VISUALS THAT YOU MIGHT USE?

 

 

A. NOT REALLY. THEY'RE MOSTLY CONFUSED BY IT, I

 

 

THINK.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THEM QUOTE WHAT YOU DID IN THE

 

 

PRESENTATIONS?

 

 

A. HAVE I EVER HEARD THEM? NO.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER READ REPRESENTATIONS IN PRESS

 

 

RELEASES AS TO WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THE CURRENT

 

 

STATE OF YOUR RESEARCH?

 

 

A. I HAVE---

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM,

 

 

JUST WHO THEM IS. I DON'T KNOW WHO

 

 

THEM IS.

 

 

WITNESS: YEAH, WHO IS THEM? WHO

 

 

BE THEM?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, ONE OF THE THEMS IS

 

 

MR. BUKER.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 213

 

 

 

 

A. YES. AND HAVE I EVER HEARD OR---

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OR READ MR. BUKERIS

 

 

CHARACTERIZATIONS OF THE CURRENT STATE OF YOUR

 

 

RESEARCH?

 

 

A. I'VE READ, I BELIEVE -- AS YOU KNOW, I DO GET SOME

 

 

NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS FROM DOWN THERE, TO TRY TO

 

 

KEEP ABREAST OF WHAT'S GOING ON.

 

 

Q. I'VE GOT A FEW.

 

 

A. WELL, IF YOU READ THE BACK---

 

 

Q. YOURS AND MINE.

 

 

A. IF YOU -- IF YOU READ THE BACKSIDE, THERE'S DEAR

 

 

ABBY AND MORE INTERESTING READING ON THE BACK.

 

 

PARDON ME. I HAVE READ SOME, I BELIEVE -- I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER HOW MANY -- BUT SOME COMMENTS THAT HE HAS

 

 

MADE RELATED TO OUR RESEARCH.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER FOUND MISCHARACTERIZATIONS OF YOUR

 

 

RESEARCH?

 

 

A. I'D SAY AT LEAST MISUNDERSTANDINGS OF SOME

 

 

COMPONENTS OF IT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU FIND THAT DR. PATRICK AND DR.

 

 

POLLMAN WERE CONFUSED BY THE STATE OF YOUR

 

 

RESEARCH?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. NOR DR. DAVIS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 214

 

 

 

 

A. NO. HOWEVER, YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT IN SOME

 

 

ASPECTS, THE DEPTH OF WHICH YOU DISCUSS CERTAIN

 

 

COMPONENTS OF RESEARCH CAN BE, TO ALMOST ANYONE,

 

 

CONFUSING UNLESS YOU HAVE THE MATERIAL TO READ OR

 

 

GO THROUGH IT. IT CAN BE. AND, ALSO, IT ALSO MAY

 

 

BE THAT I SPEAK RAPIDLY AND AM NOT QUITE AS CLEAR

 

 

ON SOME THINGS AS I SHOULD BE.

 

 

Q. IN PREPARATION FOR YOUR PRESENTATIONS AT, LET'S

 

 

SAY WHATEVER, A WETLANDS CONFERENCE OR WHATEVER,

 

 

ANY OF THESE -- THESE MEETINGS, HAVE YOU HAD JOINT

 

 

MEETINGS THAT INCLUDED ATTORNEYS AND OTHER

 

 

EXPERTS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. THEY HAVE ONLY INCLUDED OTHER EXPERTS OR

 

 

CONSULTANTS?

 

 

A. NO ONE -- LIKE FOR, SAY, A WETLANDS MEETING?

 

 

Q. FOR SAGE -- FOR SAGE. LET'S SAY SPECIFICALLY FOR

 

 

THE SAGE PRESENTATION.

 

 

A. I'M SORRY, BUT I THOUGHT I THOUGHT YOU HAD SAID

 

 

WETLANDS MEETINGS.

 

 

Q. WELL, NO, I'VE SORT OF MADE THEM ALL GENERIC.

 

 

I'VE INCLUDED ALL OF THESE, SAGE, AUDUBON, U.S.

 

 

SUGAR OR SOUTH FLORIDA. I SORT OF LUMPED THEM ALL

 

 

TOGETHER.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 215

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THEN I'LL OBJECT TO THE

 

 

FORM OF THE QUESTION, BASED UPON ITS

 

 

OVERBREADTH AND AMBIGUITY. AND, ON THAT

 

 

BASIS, I THINK THAT YOU'RE IMPLICATING

 

 

POTENTIALLY SOME ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT

 

 

AND/OR ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRESENTATIONS AS FAR

 

 

AS THE LEAGUE AND U.S. SUGAR ARE CONCERNED,

 

 

WITH OTHER PRESENTATIONS SUCH AS SAGE,

 

 

AUDUBON, AND WETLANDS CONFERENCE, AND I

 

 

DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO THAT.

 

 

A. SO ---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I CAN ASK HIM IF HE MET

 

 

WITH EXPERTS AND ATTORNEYS PRIOR.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OH, SURE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT

 

 

QUESTION IS IMPROPER.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT INSTRUCTING

 

 

HIM NOT TO ANSWER. I JUST THINK IT'S

 

 

CONFUSING.

 

 

A. FIRST OF ALL, I WOULDN'T LUMP ALL THOSE TOGETHER,

 

 

BECAUSE -- BUT WE CAN GO THROUGH. YOU SAID

 

 

SPECIFICALLY SAGE?

 

 

Q. THE LAST SAGE PRESENTATION, THE ONE THAT WE'RE

 

 

GOING TO---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 216

 

 

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- YOU KNOW, DISCUSS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE YOU'VE

 

 

REFERRED TO IT SEVERAL TIMES TODAY, AND I HAVE,

 

 

TOO. LET'S TAKE THAT ONE SPECIFICALLY. DID YOU

 

 

MEET WITH OTHER EXPERTS, AND/OR ATTORNEYS, PRIOR

 

 

TO THAT PRESENTATION?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU MEET WITH BOTH OTHER EXPERTS

 

 

AND ATTORNEYS?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHOM DID YOU MEET WITH?

 

 

A. I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHO WAS -- THERE WAS

 

 

ACTUALLY -- JUST PRIOR TO THE ACTUAL SAGE MEETING

 

 

ITSELF, I WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SCIENCE ADVISORY

 

 

REVIEW BOARD FOR EPA, AND I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS,

 

 

AND SO I ACTUALLY PREPARED THAT PRESENTATION,

 

 

WHICH I DID MYSELF. I DO ALL OF MY OWN

 

 

PRESENTATIONS, WITH THE HELP OF MY STAFF---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- AND MET JUST BRIEFLY -- BECAUSE I ACTUALLY HAD

 

 

VERY DIFFICULT CONNECTIONS, I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS,

 

 

AND I FLEW TO MIAMI, AND ACTUALLY ROI)E UP WITH

 

 

RICK. AND I MET IN MIAMI -- THERE WERE A NUMBER

 

 

OF PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM WHO WERE HAVING A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 217

 

 

 

 

CONSULTANT'S MEETING. OKAY, SO -- AND I DON'T --

 

 

I DID NOT SIT IN THAT MEETING, PER SE. I COULDN'T

 

 

TELL YOU ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THERE.

 

 

THEY WERE DOING WHATEVER THEY WERE DOING, AND I

 

 

SAT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY FINISHED THEIR

 

 

PRESENTATIONS, AND THEN I CAME IN AND MADE A BRIEF

 

 

OVERVIEW OF WHAT I WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE NEXT

 

 

DAY, AND THEN DROVE UP. AND THEN WE -- I MADE THE

 

 

PRESENTATION, SO.

 

 

Q. ARE YOU -- YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT MR. BURGESS AND

 

 

MR. GREEN WERE THERE?

 

 

MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. BUT I DON"T --- MR. GREEN

 

 

MAY HAVE BEEN THERE, AND MAY HAVE LE-FT. I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER IF HE LEFT EARLY OR NOT. I DON'T

 

 

REMEMBER IF HE STAYED FOR THE PRESENTATION OR

 

 

NOT.

 

 

Q. YOU'RE NOT IMPLYING THAT ANYONE ON THIS SIDE OF

 

 

THE TABLE WAS THERE?

 

 

A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER, BUT THERE WERE SOME OTHER

 

 

PEOPLE THERE. I BELIEVE PHIL---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTION.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OH, HE CAN ANSWER WHO WAS

 

 

THERE. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL HIM HE CAN'T

 

 

TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING, MR. BURGESS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 218

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: RIGHT. RIGHT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU INSTRUCTING HIM

 

 

NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ON WHAT BASIC?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: ON THE BASIS THAT HE

 

 

IDENTIFIED IT, AND I KNOW IT AS AN ATTORNEY

 

 

CONSULTANT MEETING. THE MAN CONSULTS FOR THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. HE SHARES A

 

 

COMMON INTEREST WITH RESPECT TO THE ATTORNEYS

 

 

AND CONSULTANTS THAT CONSULT WITH THE LEAGUE.

 

 

I MEAN, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE IDENTIFIES

 

 

PERSONS THAT WERE THERE MAY IMPLICATE MY

 

 

LITIGATION STRATEGY WITH RESPECT TO THE

 

 

PEOPLE THAT I CALL TOGETHER. HE HAS

 

 

TESTIFIED HE WAS NOT AT THE MEETING; HE

 

 

SAT IN THE HALLWAY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: BUT HE ENTERED THE ROOM

 

 

AND HE SAW THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM AND

 

 

PARTICIPATED IN THE MEETING TO THAT EXTENT.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YES, WITH RESPECT TO

MAKING HIS BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS

 

 

GOING TO DO THE NEXT DAY, AND IF THAT'S

 

 

YOU'RE ASKING WHO WAS THERE FOR THAT MEETING,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 219

 

 

 

 

THAT'S FINE, BUT NOT WITH RESPECT TO THE

 

 

PREVIOUS MEETING WHICH HE SAID FIE DIDN'T

 

 

ATTEND.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: HE CAN'T TELL ME WHO WAS

 

 

THERE FOR THE PREVIOUS MEETING?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THATTS RIGHT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU'RE INSTRUCTING

 

 

HIM NOT TO ANSWER?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: BECAUSE IT REVEALS

 

 

ATTORNEY/CLIENT PRIVILEGE?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: DO WE REALLY NEED TO

 

 

HAVE THIS TETE A TETE ON THE RECORD, MS.

 

 

PONZOLI?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OH, YES. WE MOST

 

 

CERTAINLY DO NEED TO HAVE THIS TETE-A-TETE ON

 

 

THE RECORD, BECAUSE THIS IS PRECISELY THE

 

 

TYPE OF INFORMATION THAT BOTH THE LEAGUE AND

 

 

THE COOPERATIVE ARE SEEKING FROM THE FEDERAL

 

 

GOVERNMENT ON SOME SIGNIFICANT MEETINGS THAT

 

 

I'VE BELIEVE REFLECT ATTORNEY-CLIENT

 

 

PRIVILEGES, AND I FIND IT VERY, VERY AMAZING

 

 

THAT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO SEEK THIS TYPE OF

 

 

INFORMATION. SO, I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT VERY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 220

 

 

 

 

CLEAR WHAT I AM BEING PROHIBITED FROM

 

 

OBTAINING, BECAUSE I HAVE THIS STINKY LITTLE

 

 

FEELING THAT THESE THINGS CUT BOTH WAYS, SO I

 

 

JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: IT'S CLARIFIED. CONSIDER

 

 

IT VERY CLEAR. I'M INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO

 

 

ANSWER TO TELL YOU WHO WAS AT THE MEETING,

 

 

THAT HE'S IDENTIFIED AS THE ATTORNEY-

 

 

CONSULTANT MEETING, WHICH PRECEDED HIS BRIEF

 

 

OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE

 

 

NEXT DAY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

MR. GREEN: I GUESS I NEED TO SAY

 

 

SOMETHING FOR THE RECORD, SINCE IT'S ALMOST

 

 

FIVE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T CARE WHO'S AT

 

 

THE NEXT---

 

 

MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, I DON'T RECALL

 

 

THE INSTANCE IN WHICH YOU MADE A SIMILAR

 

 

 

 

STATEMENT THAT I -- I HAVENFT BEEN TO ALL

 

 

THE DEPOSITIONS WITH REGARD TO YOUR

 

 

WITNESSES. I'LL JUST SAY, ONE, I DON'T

 

 

RECALL THAT. NUMBER TWO, FOR THE RECORD,

 

 

I WAS NOT AT THE MEETING IN MIAMI THAT YOU'RE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 221

 

 

 

 

TALKING ABOUT. I'D LIKE TO JUST STATE THAT.

 

 

WE CAN GO AHEAD.

 

 

MR. KILLINGER: NOR WAS I.

 

 

WITNESS: I SAID I DIDN'T -- I WASN'T

 

 

SURE WHETHER HE WAS THERE. I THINK I -- HE

 

 

APPARENTLY CLARIFIED THAT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING,

 

 

MR. GREEN IS YOU WOULD CONTINUE TO ASSERT

 

 

YOUR RIGHT TO OBTAIN THE -- THE ATTENDEES AT

 

 

SUCH MEETINGS?

 

 

MR. GREEN: IF IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR ME

 

 

TO OBTAIN THEM, AND AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW THE

 

 

FACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF WHICH YOU'RE

 

 

SPEAKING. SURE. THAT'S WHY I'M STATING

 

 

THIS. I'M NOT WAIVING ANY RIGHT TO OBTAIN

 

 

WHATEVER DISCOVERY WE'RE ENTITLED TO, BUT I

 

 

DON'T HAVE THE HISTORY OF THIS THAT YOU AND

 

 

MR. BURGESS HAVE. I JUST WANTED TO STATE

 

 

THAT SO IT WOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A WAIVER

 

 

IN LIGHT OF WHAT YOU SAID.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK -- I THINK

 

 

THAT IT MAY BE THAT IT IS THE COOPERATIVE

 

 

THAT IS SEEKING THE MEMBERS OF CERTAIN

 

 

MEETINGS, AND---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 222

 

 

MR. GREEN: THAT MAY BE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, IT MAY BE.

 

 

MR. GREEN: I CAN'T DEBATE THAT WITH

 

 

YOU, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS OF THE

 

 

MATTER.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOUR INTERROGATORIES, YOU

 

 

DON'T REMEMBER YOUR INTERROGATORIES?

 

 

MR. GREEN: I'LL GO BACK AND LOOK AT

 

 

THOSE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY, YOU MIGHT BE

 

 

INTERESTED.

 

 

MR. GREEN: SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA,

 

 

THOUGH.

 

 

MR. REID: WHO WAS AT THE NEXT MEETING

 

 

IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I KNOW. MR. REID, I WILL

 

 

ASK.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU HAVE NOT, DR. RICHARDSON,

 

 

BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE

 

 

MEETING WHERE YOU WALKED INTO THE ROOM AND PEOPLE

 

 

WERE SITTING THERE. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WAS NOT

 

 

THERE, SO WHO WAS? MR. BURGESS, I ASSUME WAS

 

 

THERE.

 

 

A. MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. JOHN DAVIS WAS THERE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 223

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. IT WAS ACTUALLY VERY SPARSE BY THAT TIME, BECAUSE

 

 

IT WAS VERY LATE IN THE DAY. THERE WAS NOT AS

 

 

MUCH INTEREST AS YOU MIGHT THINK.

 

 

MR. REID: CAN WE ASK WHO HE PASSED

 

 

AS HE WALKED IN THE ROOM, SINCE THE MEETING

 

 

WAS TECHNICALLY OVER, AND THE PRIVILEGE

 

 

ENDED?

 

 

A. UH---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU GOING TO INSTRUCT

 

 

HIM NOT TO INDICATE WHO PASSED HIM IN THE

 

 

HALL, MR. BURGESS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT.

 

 

MR. REID: IT MUST BE GETTING NEAR FIVE

 

 

O'CLOCK.

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER

 

 

PERSON, BUT I'M JUST NOT---

 

 

Q. YOU DID IT TO AN AUDIENCE OF TWO, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. IT MAY HAVE FALL -- IT WAS VERY FEW. I MEAN, IT

 

 

WASN'T MORE THAN FOUR. IT MAY HAVE BEEN THREE,

 

 

BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS VERY FEW. IT WAS---

 

 

Q. WAS MR. LARSON THERE?

 

 

A. NO, I DO NOT---

 

 

Q. MR. PARSONS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 224

 

 

 

 

A. HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT I'M THINKING OF, BUT I HAVE

 

 

A RECOLLECTION THAT HE MAY HAVE HAD TO LEAVE EARLY

 

 

FOR A FLIGHT CONNECTION---

 

 

Q. HOW DID---

 

 

A. --- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW --

 

 

THEY PROBABLY GET TIRED OF HEARING THIS

 

 

INFORMATION.

 

 

Q. WHO ELSE DID PRESENTATIONS AT THAT MEETING?

 

 

A. AT MY MEETING?

 

 

Q. AT THE ONE THAT YOU WAITED IN LINE TO DO YOUR

 

 

PRESENTATION.

 

 

A. I WAS THE ONLY ONE. I WAS THE TAIL-E:ND. I CAME

 

 

IN LATE. IT WAS -- IT WAS IN THE EVENING. IT WAS

 

 

PAST SUPPER TIME, IF MY RECOLLECTION IS CORRECT.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU DID THE PRESENTATION THAT YOU WERE

 

 

OFFERING AT SAGE THE NEXT DAY?

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. WAS IT CRITIQUED OR COMMENTED ON?

 

 

A. NOT MUCH.

 

 

Q. APPLAUDED?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. NONE OF THE ABOVE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. I THINK YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE HAD OTHER

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 225

 

 

 

 

MEETINGS IN THIS -- IN THIS REGARD. I WOULD LIKE

 

 

TO KNOW WHAT THOSE HAVE BEEN.

 

 

A. IN WHICH REGARD?

 

 

Q. WHERE YOU HAVE MET WITH OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE

 

 

LEAGUE, AND/OR THE COOPERATIVE.

 

 

A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, I HAVE MET A NUMBER OF

 

 

TIMES FOR EQC, WHICH THERE COULD HAVE BEEN --

 

 

WELL, THERE WERE IN CERTAIN INSTANCES, CONSULTANTS

 

 

THERE.

 

 

Q. WHO WAS THERE?

 

 

A. WELL, DR. PATRICK AND DR. DAVIS PRIMARILY ARE THE

 

 

TWO. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER PEOPLE, BUT

 

 

SOME OF THESE MEETINGS ARE TWO OR THREE YEARS OLD,

 

 

SO ITTS HARD TO SAY.

 

 

Q. MR. BARBER?

 

 

A. OH, YES. MR. BARBER WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE.

 

 

Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON?

 

 

A. AS I SAID, MR. LARSON AND I HAVE CROSSED PATHS

 

 

VERY LITTLE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, OTHER THAN

 

 

MAYBE AT A SAGE MEETING WHERE HE'S I14 ONE PLACE

 

 

AND I'M IN ANOTHER.

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. WE'VE NOT -- WE'VE NOT MET.

 

 

Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW OFTEN YOU HAVE MET WITH

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 226

 

 

DR. DAVIS?

 

 

A. UH, A FEW TIMES. I DON'T KNOW, A HALF A DOZEN

 

 

TIMES, BUT NOT -- NOT SINGLY. PRIMARILY IN THESE

 

 

MEETINGS, HE WOULD BE IN THE SAME ROOM THAT I

 

 

WOULD BE IN.

 

 

Q. HAS DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR

 

 

THE LEAGUE OR THE COOPERATIVE EVER PREPARED

 

 

VISUALS OR SLIDES OR EXHIBITS FOR YOU' TO USE AT A

 

 

PRESENTATION?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE IN '89, WHEN I WAS WORKING FOR THE

 

 

LEAGUE, SOME GENERAL 3-D GRAPHICS WERE PRODUCED

 

 

PRIMARILY OF BACKGROUNDS, WATER MANAGEMENT DATA.

 

 

NONE OF MY DATA, PER SE, THAT I CAN REMEMBER.

 

 

THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OR TWO INSTANCES. MOST OF

 

 

IT WAS WHAT I CALL GENERIC RAINFALL DATA, SOUTH

 

 

FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DAI'A, BECAUSE,

 

 

AT THAT TIME, WE DID NOT HAVE THE COMPUTER SYSTEM

 

 

AVAILABLE TO PRODUCE SLIDES---

 

 

Q. WAS THIS---

 

 

A. --- AND HE DID.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WAS THIS FOR A PRESENTATION TO THE WATER

 

 

MANAGEMENT BOARD?

 

 

A. ONE OF THEM, YES, IT WAS.

 

 

Q. HAD DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 227

 

 

 

 

SUBSEQUENTLY PREPARED VISUALS OR SLIDES OR

GRAPHICS FOR YOU TO USE?

 

 

A. IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, I HAVE PRODUCED ALL OF MY

 

 

OWN SLIDES, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. THERE MAY BE ONE OR

 

 

TWO SLIDES THAT ARE AN EXCEPTION TO THAT. BUT

 

 

I'VE GOT OVER, AS YOU KNOW, FIFTEEN HUNDRED

 

 

SLIDES. I CAN'T REALLY ATTEST TO THAT. I

 

 

ACTUALLY HAVE TEN THOUSAND SLIDES, BUT IT TOOK ME

 

 

A LONG TIME TO SEPARATE THOSE FROM THE EVERGLADES

 

 

SLIDES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT, DR. RICHARDSON,

 

 

I THINK WE'RE A LITTLE PAST FIVE AND I FEEL

 

 

THE ROOM GROWING RESTLESS, SO WE HAD

 

 

BETTER---

 

 

WITNESS: THE ANIMALS ARE HUNGRY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WE'LL START AGAIN IN THE

 

 

MORNING AT NINE.

 

 

WITNESS: AT NINE?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

 

(THEREUPON, THIS PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON WAS RECESSED AT 5:06 P.M., TO

 

 

BE RESUMED AT 9:00 A.M. ON JANUARY 12, 1993.)

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 228

 

 

 

 

THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION

 

 

OF DR. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON WAS TAKEN ON THE

4TH DAY OF JANUARY, 1993, BEGINNING AT OR AROUND

 

 

9:00 A.M. IN THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH

 

 

ROAD, THE WALKER SUITE, DURHAM, NORTH

 

 

CAROLINA, AND WAS REPORTED BY PAMELA S. LILES,

 

 

A NOTARY PUBLIC.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: MR. McCAUGHAN -- I WOULD

 

 

LIKE TO PUT ON THE RECORD -- MR. McCAUGHAN

 

 

PHONED AND SAID THAT HE'S TIED UP IN A

 

 

CONFERENCE CALL, AND THAT WE COULD START

 

 

WITHOUT HIM, AND THAT HE WOULD BE HERE AS

 

 

SOON AS HE WAS ABLE.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: SUZAN, I WOULD ALSO LIKE

 

 

TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE RECORD, IF I MAY.

 

 

YES?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: (GESTURES.)

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE GESTURING MY WAY.

 

 

IN MAKING MY OBJECTIONS YESTERDAY CONCERNING

 

 

INSTRUCTING THE WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER WHO WAS

 

 

PRESENT AT VARIOUS LITIGATION, CONSULTANT AND

 

 

OTHER MEETINGS, I WAS FOLLOWING THE LEAD OF

 

 

THE UNITED STATES SET IN THE FEDERAL SUIT,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 229

 

 

 

 

SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO THE FINLEY AND

 

 

WALKER DEPOSITIONS. HOWEVER, SINCE THE

 

 

STATEMENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES YESTERDAY

 

 

ON THE RECORD THAT DISCLOSURE IS A TWO-WAY

 

 

STREET, I AM NOT GOING TO INSTRUCT

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON NOT TO ANSWER SUCH QUESTIONS

 

 

CONCERNING THE NAMES OF PERSONS WHO WERE IN

 

 

ATTENDANCE AT THESE MEETINGS, INCLUDING THE

 

 

MEETINGS ABOUT WHICH HE SPOKE YESTERDAY, WITH

 

 

ONE EXCEPTION THAT I AM AWARE OF, ONE MEETING

 

 

THAT DR. RICHARDSON ATTENDED, THAT I ALSO

 

 

ATTENDED, WAS ATTENDED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT

 

 

NOW A LISTED TESTIFYING EXPERT FOR THE

 

 

LEAGUE, AND I THINK PURSUANT TO CASE LAW

 

 

UNTIL HE IS, IF EVER, LISTED AS A TESTIFYING

 

 

WITNESS, HIS IDENTITY MAY NOT BE DISCLOSED

 

 

THROUGH THIS WITNESS. THANK YOU.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I GUESS -- THAT'S

 

 

QUITE AN INTERESTING CONCESSION, BECAUSE YOU

 

 

ACTUALLY DIDN'T CONCEDE MUCH, YOU KEPT BACK

 

 

THE ONE THING THAT WE HAD ARGUED OVER

 

 

YESTERDAY. BUT IF I HEAR YOU CORRECTLY,

 

 

YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT I MAY

 

 

ASK HIM WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT THE PRIOR

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 230

 

 

 

 

MEETING. I WILL NOT, HOWEVER, IN REFERENCE

 

 

TO THE ISSUES THAT MR. GREEN AND I WERE

 

 

ALLUDING TO IN REGARD TO THE SETTLEMENT

 

 

DISCUSSION MEETINGS, WAIVE ANY OBJECTIONS OR

 

 

PRIVILEGES THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO

 

 

ASSERT. SO, I WANT TO BE FAIR WITH YOU IN

 

 

THAT REGARD. OUR POSITION REGARDING THOSE

 

 

MEETINGS IS NOT GOING TO BE ALTERED BY YOUR

 

 

STATEMENT. BUT IF I UNDERSTAND YOU

 

 

CORRECTLY, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT YOU HAVE

 

 

WITHDRAWN YOUR INSTRUCTION TO YOUR WITNESS TO

 

 

ANSWER, EXCEPT AS TO THE ONE INDIVIDUAL YOU

 

 

INDICATE IS A -- I THINK I CAN HAVE THE

 

 

IDENTITY OF A CONSULTANT; I JUST DON'T THINK

 

 

I CAN HAVE HIS DEPOSITION, MR. BURGESS, SO I

 

 

THINK I WOULD ASK YOU TO RECONSIDER THAT.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DISAGREE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: SO, YOU ARE INSTRUCTING

 

 

HIM NOT TO GIVE ME THAT PARTICULAR CON --

 

 

YOU'RE CALLING THIS A CONSULTANT, IS THAT

 

 

ACCURATE?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: RIGHT, A NON-TESTIFYING

 

 

CONSULTANT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 231

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: AND I DISAGREE. I THINK

 

 

IT IS A MAJOR CONCESSION ON OUR PART, WHICH

 

 

I UNDERSTAND IS GOING TO OPERATE AS A

 

 

QUID PRO QUO WITH RESPECT TO CONSULTANT

 

 

MEETINGS AND THE NAMES OF PERSONS IN

 

 

ATTENDANCE AT CONSULTANT MEETINGS, IF THOSE

 

 

PERSONS ARE EITHER ATTORNEYS, CLIENTS, OR

 

 

LISTED AS TESTIFYING EXPERT WITNESSES. AND I

 

 

WOULD EXPECT THAT IF YOU HAVE NON-TESTIFYING

 

 

EXPERT CONSULTANTS YOU WOULD ALSO REFRAIN

 

 

FROM IDENTIFYING THEM BASED UPON THE INSTANCE

 

 

THAT I JUST MENTIONED.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, SINCE YOU'VE

 

 

OBVIOUSLY SPENT THE EVENING DISCUSSING THIS

 

 

WITH MR. GREEN AND HAD A PREPARED STATEMENT

 

 

TO READ, I SUGGEST WE GO OFF THE RECORD AND I

 

 

HAVE BRIEF MEETING WITH MY CO-RE:SPONDENTS AND

 

 

SEE IF WE WANT TO COME BACK WITH A POSITION

 

 

THAT WE'LL PUT ON THE RECORD.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OKAY.

 

 

(THEREUPON, A SHORT

 

 

BREAK WAS TAKEN.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: GOING BACK ON THE RECORD.

 

 

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO WANT TO TAKE THIS ON

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 232

 

 

 

 

A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT

 

 

WILLING TO ENTER SOME GLOBAL STIPULATION AT

 

 

THIS POINT, MR. BURGESS. BUT SINCE YOU HAVE

 

 

NARROWED YOUR INSTRUCTION ABOUT NOT

 

 

ANSWERING, THEN I THINK I WILL ASK

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:

 

 

Q. YOU WERE WAITING IN THE HALL AT THIS MEETING IN

 

 

PREPARATION FOR SORT OF A DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE

 

 

PRESENTATION, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE INDIVIDUAL YOUR

 

 

LAWYER HAS INSTRUCTED YOU NOT TO REVEAL -- I

 

 

ASSUME YOU KNOW WHO THIS PERSON WAS, DO YOU?

 

 

A. THE PERSON THAT I'M---

 

 

Q. THAT YOU'VE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO REVEAL.

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THAT

 

 

PERSON, PLEASE TELL ME WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT

 

 

THAT PRE-MEETING.

 

 

A. AT THE PRE-MEETING?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. WELL, SINCE I SAID I ONLY JUST SORT OF POPPED IN

 

 

AND SAID I WAS -- "I'M HERE." AND THEY SAID, "GO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 233

 

 

 

 

OUT, WAIT IN THE HALLWAY." AND THEN, OF COURSE,

 

 

WHEN THE MEETING BROKE UP, I SAW SOME PEOPLE IN

 

 

THE ROOM. I DID NOT SEE ALL THE PEOPLE. THERE

 

 

WERE -- I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T TELL YOU THE TOTAL

 

 

NUMBER.

 

 

Q. TEN, MAYBE?

 

 

A. MAYBE TEN, MAYBE TWELVE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE TOTAL. I DIDN'T COUNT

 

 

THEM.

 

 

Q. WAS MR. WEDGWORTH ONE OF THEM?

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER, SERIOUSLY.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. THE PEOPLE I CAN REMEMBER IN THAT ROOM WERE PHIL

 

 

PARSONS, JOHN DAVIS, RICK BURGESS, DE,

 

 

BREEDLOVE---

 

 

Q. DENNIS BREEDLOW?

 

 

A. BREEDLOVE, I THINK IT IS.

 

 

Q. OH.

 

 

A. COURTNEY HACKNEY. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER

 

 

ATTORNEYS THERE FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK, BUT

 

 

I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHICH ONES THEY WERE. I

 

 

JUST DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER.

 

 

Q. MS. CAVANAUGH OR MR. EARL?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 234

 

 

 

 

A. I THINK BILL EARL WAS THERE.

 

 

Q. MR. BUKER?

 

 

A. YES, HE WAS THERE.

 

 

Q. ANYONE FROM FLO SUN?

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. AS I SAID, I REALLY DIDN'T -- I

 

 

REALLY---

 

 

Q. PETE ROSENDAHL?

 

 

A. YEAH, I THINK PETE ROSENDAHL WAS THERE.

 

 

Q. WE'VE GOT EIGHT. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WASN'T

 

 

THERE.

 

 

A. I THINK I TOLD YOU YESTERDAY I WASN'T SURE IF HE

 

 

WAS OR HE WASN'T.

 

 

Q. HE TOLD US.

 

 

MR. GREEN: NOT THAT I WOULDN'T

 

 

HAVE ENJOYED BEING THERE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THEY DIDN'T INVITE

 

 

ME EITHER.

 

 

WITNESS: THEY DIDN'T INVITE ME

 

 

EITHER; I HAD TO WAIT IN THE HALLWAY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WAS THERE A REASON FOR THAT,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I THINK -- WELL, THEY'VE HAD A NUMBER OF

 

 

CONSULTANT MEETINGS WHICH I AM NOT INVOLVED

 

 

WITH.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 235

 

 

 

 

Q. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT MEETING, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WERE THEY HAVING A PRESENTATION BY THIS

 

 

OTHER PERSON WHOM YOUFVE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO

 

 

IDENTIFY?

 

 

A. I WAS NOT AT THAT MEETING.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW IF THE OTHER PERSON DID

 

 

A PRESENTATION OR NOT, YOU HAD NO EVIDENCE THAT

 

 

THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE ONE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S ALL THE PEOPLE YOU CAN REMEMBER

 

 

AT THAT MEETING?

 

 

A. THAT'S ALL I CAN REMEMBER. AND I'D BE

 

 

SPECULATING, I MEAN, YOU KNOW. AND I MAY NOT BE

 

 

A HUNDRED PERCENT ACCURATE ON THOSE, -.1 MEAN. BUT

 

 

I -- YOU KNOW, IT'S REASONABLE -- IT'S A

 

 

REASONABLE LIST.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY THAT

 

 

MISTER -- YOU THINK, TO THE BEST OF YOUR

 

 

RECOLLECTION, APPROXIMATELY, MR. PARSONS,

 

 

MR. BURGESS, MR. DAVIS, MAY HAVE REMAINED BEHIND

 

 

TO HEAR YOUR DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE PRESENTATION,

 

 

IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 236

 

 

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU WERE EXCLUDED FROM THAT FIRST

 

 

MEETING?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I SAID, IT'S -- FOR THE FIRST -- WELL,

 

 

SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THE GRANT, WHILE I HAVE

 

 

ADVISED THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE ON SOME MATTERS AS

 

 

TO THE EXPERTS THEY MIGHT CONSIDER, OR SOME

 

 

SPECIFIC MATTERS, OR DOCUMENTS, OR OTHER TYPES OF

 

 

INFORMATION, I HAVE NOT BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE

 

 

CONSULTANTS; I HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING IN THE FIELD

 

 

WITH THEM, NOR HAVE I -- THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS

 

 

TO THAT RELATED TO REVIEWING, AS I MENTIONED THE

 

 

OTHER DAY, THE ENTRY INTO THE PARK; I HAVE LOOKED

 

 

AT SOME OF THAT DOCUMENTATION. BUT IN TERMS OF

 

 

THE WORK THAT THE CONSULTANTS ARE DOING, I'M

 

 

REALLY -- OTHER THAN A VERY CURSORY WAY, I'M

 

 

REALLY NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND

 

 

THAT'S BEEN KEPT THAT WAY, BOTH FROM 'THEIR POINT

 

 

OF VIEW AND FROM MY POINT OF VIEW. IT'S ONLY

 

 

DONE, I GUESS, AS A WAY TO KEEP SEPARATE THE

 

 

A. RESEARCH COMPONENT AND WHAT CONSULTANCIES I DO

 

 

FOR THEM. AND, SO, I THINK BASICALLY IN THAT

 

 

PARTICULAR CASE, I MEAN, I'M JUST NOT -- I'M NOT

 

 

PRIVY TO THE INFORMATION OR WHAT THEY'VE DISCUSSED

 

 

IN TERMS OF THEIR CONSULTANCY WORK.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 237

 

 

 

 

Q. WAS THIS EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU AS AN ACTUAL

 

 

STRATEGY THAT THE VARIOUS CONSULTANTS WOULD BE

 

 

KEPT SEPARATE, EXCEPT IN CERTAIN FORMAL LINES OF

 

 

COMMUNICATION?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU EARLIER, WHEN I STARTED WITH

 

 

GEORGE -- WORKING WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH, WHO AT

 

 

THAT TIME WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE, INITIALLY, I BASICALLY POINTED OUT THAT

 

 

THE UNIVERSITY WOULD WORK ON THE BASIS THAT THE

 

 

INFORMATION WE WOULD GATHER WOULD BE OPEN AND IN

 

 

OPEN FORUM; THAT WE WOULD HAVE STUDENTS INVOLVED;

 

 

AND THAT WE WOULD HAVE JUNIOR FACULTY MEMBERS

 

 

INVOLVED, AND THEY MUST BE ALLOWED TO PUBLISH;

 

 

AND -- OTHERWISE, THE UNIVERSITY -- WE WOULD BE

 

 

INTERESTED MORE IN THE BASIC RESEARCH THAN WHAT'S

 

 

GOING ON. AND GEORGE WAS ABSOLUTELY 'INSISTENT,

 

 

WHILE HE WAS HEAD OF THE LEAGUE, AND ALSO EARLY

 

 

ON, AND STILL, AS FAR AS I KNOW IN MY EVEN MORE

 

 

RECENT CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM, THAT THAT IS THE

 

 

APPROPRIATE TACK TO TAKE. SO, FROM MY POINT OF

 

 

VIEW, I THINK IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE; AND FROM

 

 

THEIR POINT OF VIEW, IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE. SO,

 

 

FOR THE RESEARCH PART, WE'VE TRIED TO KEEP THOSE

 

 

AS SEPARATE AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE KEPT THEM

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 238

 

 

 

 

ABREAST, AND I DO THAT CONTINUALLY WHEN THEY ASK,

 

 

OR ANY ORGANIZATION ASKS WHAT ARE MY FINDINGS TO

 

 

DATE, I DO MAKE THOSE PRESENTATIONS. BUT I THINK

 

 

IT WAS -- SO, I THINK I'VE ANSWERED -- DID I

 

 

ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?

 

 

Q. NO, SIR, I DON'T THINK YOU DID. I THINK I ASKED

 

 

YOU WAS IT EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY -- OR THAT

 

 

THERE WOULD BE FORMAL LINES OF COMMUNICATION

 

 

REGARDING KEEPING THE CONSULTANTS SEPARATE.

 

 

YOU'VE EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT MR. WEDGWORTH WANTED,

 

 

WHICH HE HAS EXPLAINED TO ME. AND YOU HAVE

 

 

EXPLAINED TO ME WHY YOU FIND IT AN APPEALING

 

 

PROCEDURE/PROTOCOL FOR YOUR PURPOSES AND FOR

 

 

THE UNIVERSITY'S PURPOSES. BUT MY QUESTION WAS,

 

 

DID MR. EARL, OR ANY OTHER ATTORNEY OR CONSULTANT

 

 

ON BEHALF OF THAT FIRM OR THOSE CLIENTS, EXPLAIN

 

 

TO YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE A PROTOCOL OF THIS

 

 

TYPE?

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY SPECIFICS, EXCEPT FOR THE

 

 

FACT THAT I THINK FROM SEVERAL MEETINGS THAT WERE

 

 

HELD, I MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR IN TERMS OF MY AREAS

 

 

OF RESEARCH THAT THEY WERE OPEN TO PUBLIC FORUM.

 

 

AND I THINK THE ATTORNEYS, IN CERTAIN AREAS, FELT

 

 

THAT THEY NEEDED TO HAVE, I GUESS, ATTORNEY/CLIENT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 239

 

 

 

 

PRIVILEGE, AND SO THEREFORE THEY MADE A DECISION

 

 

EARLY ON TO GO A SEPARATE WAY, AND USE A DIFFERENT

 

 

SET OF CONSULTANTS TO DO SOME TYPES OF WORK. AND

 

 

SINCE MY -- ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WENT TO THE EPD,

 

 

SINCE MY WORK WAS GOING TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC

 

 

ANYWAYS, THEY COULD USE THAT WORK AND THEN USE --

 

 

UTILIZE MY EXPERTISE TO HELP THEM SIMPLY SELECT

 

 

OTHER PEOPLE, AND TO REVIEW DOCUMENTS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- SO, I'M SURE -- I MEAN, QUITE SURE THAT BY

 

 

UTILIZING THAT STRATEGY, ESSENTIALLY, THAT IT

 

 

KEPT ME SOMEWHAT IN THE DARK AS TO WHAT THEY WERE

 

 

DOING, WHICH AT TIMES, YOU KNOW, FOR THEM, I

 

 

SUPPOSE, WAS A BENEFIT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, THESE WERE MEETINGS HELD IN 188, 189,

 

 

WHERE THIS SEPARATION OF SOME CONSULTANTS TO DO

 

 

SOME TASKS, AND THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, AND YOU

 

 

AND YOUR PEOPLE TO DO OTHER TASKS WAS DISCUSSED,

 

 

AND THE INTERFACE BETWEEN THE TWO?

 

 

A. WELL, THEY WEREN'T DISCUSSED WITH MY STAFF. I

 

 

MEAN, BASICALLY, THEY DISCUSSED IT WITH ME. MY

 

 

STAFF HAS ALWAYS BEEN KEPT ABSOLUTELY -- THEY HAVE

 

 

NOT BEEN INVOLVED VERY MUCH WITH THAT.

 

 

Q. WHEN YOU SAY "VERY MUCH," WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 240

 

 

 

 

A. THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED MEETINGS. THE EXCEPTION TO

 

 

THAT, I THINK, MAY BE DR. RADER, WHO MAY HAVE

 

 

ATTENDED A MEETING OR TWO. BUT DR. QUALLS AND MY

 

 

STUDENTS AND DR. CRAFT, AND BOB JOHNSON, OTHER

 

 

THAN JUST, SAY, MAYBE AN OCCASIONAL MEETING OR A

 

 

LUNCH OR SOMETHING, THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED FORMAL

 

 

MEETINGS, AND THAT WAS THE WAY -- WE HAVE HAD

 

 

SOME -- WE HAVE HAD -- THEY'VE HAD SOME CONTACT

 

 

WHEN, IN FACT, THEY WOULD BE OUT IN THE FIELD --

 

 

AS WE'VE HAD WITH ALMOST ANYONE -- THE SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE, THE CO-OP, THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER

 

 

MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. ALL SORTS OF VISITORS COME

 

 

TO OUR SITE AND ASK CAN WE GO ALONG ON A BOAT RIDE

 

 

AND SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, OR CAN WE TAKE -- CAN

 

 

YOU TAKE US OUT IN THE FIELD. AND SO WE'VE HAD A

 

 

HOST OF PEOPLE, EPD PEOPLE, WHO ON SOME REGULAR

 

 

BASIS -- WE JUST DON'T -- WE'RE NOT A TOUR OUTFIT,

 

 

SO WE BASICALLY KEEP THAT A -- SO, I'M SAYING THEY

 

 

MAY HAVE BEEN OUT IN THE FIELD WITH THEM FOR AN

 

 

AFTERNOON WHEN THEY WERE DOING SOME WORK.

 

 

Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND THE PERSON, DR. RICHARDSON, WHO

 

 

HAS -- YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO NAME AT

 

 

THAT ONE MEETING. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT YOU HAD

 

 

RECOMMENDED?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 241

 

 

 

 

A. ARE WE BACK TO---

 

 

Q. YEAH, WE'RE BACK TO -- I THINK THIS MAY BE THE

 

 

LAST QUESTION ON THAT ONE.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE RIGHT.

 

 

A. YES, I BELIEVE SO.

 

 

Q. OH. OF THE EXPERTS THAT THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE AND/OR THE CO-OP ARE USING IN THIS MATTER,

 

 

I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHICH OF THEM YOU HAVE

 

 

RECOMMENDED TO THEM.

 

 

A. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL OF THE EXPERTS THEY ARE

 

 

USING, SO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET ME READ THEM TO YOU.

 

 

A. I THINK---

 

 

Q. I'LL JUST READ THEM---

 

 

A. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

Q. --- IT WON'T TAKE THAT LONG. WE'LL GO THROUGH THE

 

 

LEAGUE'S LIST FIRST, AND THEN WE'LL GO THROUGH THE

 

 

CO-OP'S LIST.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. DO YOU RECALL WHY YOU RECOMMENDED THE SECRET

 

 

EXPERT, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. DO I RECALL WHY?

 

 

Q. YES, UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 242

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. WHY?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: BASED ON THAT WOULD

 

 

REVEAL SOME STRATEGY OF THE LEAGUE?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YES. THIS IN RESPONSE

 

 

TO MY QUESTION. YOU'VE GOT IT.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. POLOPOLUS, DID YOU RECOMMEND

 

 

DR. POLOPOLUS? I'M JUST GOING TO GIVE THEIR

 

 

NAMES, AND YOU CAN TELL ME YES OR NO.

 

 

A. I'D LIKE TO -- DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS ONE?

 

 

LOOKING AT IT AT THE SAME TIME, IT WOULD HELP ME

 

 

WITH THAT.

 

 

Q. NO, I HAVE A SINGLE COPY. I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE A

 

 

LIST OF THE LEAGUE'S EXPERT WITNESSES AND

 

 

THE CO-OP'S EXPERT WITNESSES?

 

 

MR. KILLINGER: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM

 

 

I CAN GO GET IT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM.

 

 

A. DOES SOMEONE NEED ONE?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT --

 

 

DO YOU MIND GETTING YOURS AND I'LL JUST

 

 

START CALLING THEM OUT, THEN, UNTIL YOU GET

 

 

HERE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 243

 

 

 

 

WITNESS: THIS SOMETIMES HELPS ME.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU MIND IF WE DO THAT?

 

 

DO YOU WANT US TO WAIT FOR YOU, LEE?

 

 

MR. KILLINGER: YEAH, IT'LL JUST BE A

 

 

BRIEF SECOND.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

(MR. KILLINGER LEAVES THE ROOM

 

 

BRIEFLY TO GO GET A DOCUMENT.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU CAN START LOOKING SO

 

 

THAT IT'LL GO FASTER.

 

 

WITNESS: NOW, THE QUESTION IS, WHICH

 

 

ONES---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I'M GOING TO WANT TO KNOW

 

 

WHICH OF THESE PEOPLE YOU RECOMMENDED.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

MR. KILLINGER: IS THAT THE RIGHT DATE

 

 

ON THERE?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE

 

 

RIGHT ONE.

 

 

MR. KILLINGER: IT MAY NOT BE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 244

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT'S THE PRELIMINARY

DISCLOSURE. THERE'S ABOUT THREE OF THEM,

LEE.

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, WE CAN -- CAN WE STAND

 

 

TOGETHER AND JUST GO OVER THEM PRETTY RAPIDLY,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON; WOULD THAT WORK FOR YOU?

 

 

A. DO YOU HAVE A LIST YOURSELF NOW, OR NO?

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES). WELL, NO, I DON'T HAVE A LIST, I'LL

 

 

JUST STAND---

 

 

A. OH, OKAY. YOU WANT TO---

 

 

Q. YOU KNOW, I'LL JUST COVER---

 

 

A. --- OKAY. YOU WANT TO LOOK OVER MY SHOULDER HERE.

 

 

OKAY.

 

 

I'LL LOOK OVER YOUR SHOULDER, SURE, WE'LL JUST

 

 

MOVE RIGHT THROUGH THIS, BECAUSE I CAN'T IMAGE YOU

 

 

RECOMMENDED ALL THESE PEOPLE, YEAH.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, MY QUESTION IS, IS WHICH OF

 

 

THESE EXPERTS DID YOU RECOMMEND TO THE LEAGUE, AND

 

 

I'LL JUST CALL OUT THE NAME AND YOU CAN SAY YES OR

 

 

NO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 245

 

 

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. DR. LEO POLOPOLUS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. JAMES RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. JOHN DAVIS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. MICHAEL DENNIS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DOC -- NO -- MR. HOWELL?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. MR. LARSON?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. PATRICK?

 

 

A. I MENTIONED HIS NAME.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU -- YOU WERE THE ONE WHO

 

 

INTRODUCED DR. PATRICK, OR YOU JUST MENTIONED HIS

 

 

NAME?

 

 

A. WELL, THEY'VE ASKED -- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, I

 

 

HAVE BEEN ASKED FROM TIME TO TIME CERTAIN PEOPLE,

 

 

AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY CONTACTED THEM FIRST, I

 

 

DON'T KNOW. I CAN ONLY SAY WHETHER I RECOMMENDED

 

 

THEM OR NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. PATRICK FOR?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 246

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

HE NEVER SAID HE RECOMMENDED HIM FOR

 

 

ANYTHING.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT DID YOU MENTION DR. PATRICK

 

 

FOR---

 

 

A. I SAID---

 

 

Q. --- DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. --- I SAID HE WAS ONE OF THE LEADING WETLANDS SOIL

 

 

SCIENTISTS IN THE COUNTRY IN BIOGEOCHEMICAL

 

 

CYCLING.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IS HE BEING USED FOR THOSE PURPOSES, TO

 

 

YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

A. I ONLY KNOW IN GENERAL TERMS OF WHAT HE'S DOING.

 

 

Q. WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE DR. PATRICK IS DOING?

 

 

A. SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THAT I'M DOING. IN

 

 

GENERAL, HE'S REVIEWING DOCUMENTS FOR THE GROUP.

 

 

I THINK HE MADE A PRESENTATION ON -- AT THE SAGE

 

 

MEETING -- ON THE CALCIUM WORK HE WAS DOING.

 

 

AND HE ORIGINALLY DID THE CESIUM 137 WORK FOR

 

 

A. DR. REDDY SINCE DR. REDDY CANNOT DO THAT WORK IN

 

 

HIS LABORATORY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK DONE ANY MERCURY WORK, TO

 

 

YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IN THE EAA?

 

 

A. I SAW A PRESENTATION THAT HE GAVE, I BELIEVE, AT A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 247

 

 

 

 

MERCURY CONFERENCE IN FLORIDA WHERE HE PRESENTED

 

 

SOME DATA. AND I BELIEVE THAT DATA WAS TAKEN ON

 

 

SOME CROP SPECIES, AND I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN THE

 

 

EAA. SO, HE HAD -- HIS LABORATORY HAD ANALYZED

 

 

SOME MERCURY.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER COLLABORATED WITH DR. PATRICK ON ANY

 

 

MERCURY WORK?

 

 

A. NO, I HAVE NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK EVER REVIEWED ANY MERCURY

 

 

WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE?

 

 

A. THAT'S HARD TO SAY.

 

 

Q. WELL, THAT YOU KNEW THAT HE WAS REVIEWING, NOT

 

 

THAT HE -- YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE AWARE

 

 

OF?

 

 

A. NOTHING HE'S EVER INFORMED ME.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. OR, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU SENT TO HIM FOR

 

 

REVIEW?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IS TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS DR. PATRICK

 

 

DOING ANY FIELDWORK ON LIMESTONE DITCHES?

 

 

A. I THINK HE HAS A PROJECT THAT HE-S WORKING WITH,

 

 

I THINK, IN CONJUNCTION WITH ONE OF THE SUGAR

 

 

COMPANIES. I BELIEVE HE HAS A FIELD PROJECT THAT

 

 

HE'S WORKING ON.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 248

 

 

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT'S LOCATED?

 

 

A. I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE; I HAVE NOT SEEN IT.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT'S BEEN GOING ON?

 

 

A. I'D SAY YOU'RE PROBABLY TALKING A YEAR MAYBE,

 

 

SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. IT COULD BE A

 

 

LITTLE LONGER; IT COULD BE A LITTLE SHORTER, BUT

 

 

THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION.

 

 

Q. SURE. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY RESULTS FROM THAT

 

 

FIELDWORK?

 

 

A. I DON'T THINK I'VE SEEN -- THERE MAY HAVE BEEN

 

 

SOME GENERAL COMMENTS MADE ABOUT IT, BUT I DON'T

 

 

THINK I'VE SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT. I DONFT -- TO

 

 

MY KNOWLEDGE, I HAVEN'T. I'M TRYING THINK. I'VE

 

 

NOT SEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN ON THAT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, WE WOULDN'T

 

 

OBJECT TO YOU READING FROM THE LIST AND

 

 

PASSING BACK AND FORTH AND SITTING IN THE

 

 

SEAT THAT YOU BEGAN THE DEPOSITION FROM.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OH, I DON'T HAVE ANY

 

 

PROBLEM DOING IT THAT WAY, EITHER.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON HAD WANTED TO READ FROM

 

 

THE LIST, MR. GREEN. IF YOU WOULD

 

 

RATHER I---

 

 

MR. GREEN: I UNDERSTAND.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 249

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- RETURN, I'LL BE HAPPY

 

 

TO.

 

 

MR. GREEN: I WOULD RATHER YOU RETURN,

 

 

THANK YOU.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

(BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT WERE THE GENERAL COMMENTS,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, THAT YOU REFERRED TO OF

 

 

DR. PATRICK OR ABOUT DR. PATRICK?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU LIFE TO GET

 

 

YOUR LIST, MR. GREEN, SO THAT WE WOULD BE

 

 

ABLE TO EACH HAVE ONE, OR WOULD YOU RATHER

 

 

YOUR WITNESS JUST ANSWER ME FROM, MY READING

 

 

OUT THE NAMES?

 

 

MR. GREEN: I THOUGHT HE HAD A COPY OF

 

 

THE LIST THERE?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S MY COPY.

 

 

MR. GREEN: OH.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

 

 

MR. GREEN: SURE, I'LL GET IT. GIVE ME

 

 

A. FIVE MINUTES.

 

 

WITNESS: ARE WE STILL ON THE RECORD, OR

 

 

ARE WE OFF THE RECORD?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: NO, WE'RE OFF THE RECORD.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WEFRE OFF THE RECORD.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 250

 

 

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

WITNESS: OKAY, WHERE ARE WE? OH, WE

 

 

NEVER GOT -- WE'RE STILL -- I ASSUME WE'RE

 

 

STILL ON PATRICK.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. WE'RE UP TO

 

 

DR. PATRICK, THE COMMENTS, THE QUESTION -- THE

 

 

PENDING---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU READ BACK

 

 

THE PENDING QUESTION TO DR. RICHARDSON---

 

 

Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE PENDING QUESTION?

 

 

A. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

 

 

Q. WHAT'S THE MATTER? WHAT WERE THE GENERAL

 

 

COMMENTS? DO YOU REMEMBER, DR. RICHARDSON, THE

 

 

QUESTION?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE QUESTION APPEARING

 

 

ON PAGE 249, LINES 7-9, INCLUSIVE,

 

 

WAS REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

A. THE GENERAL COMMENTS WERE -- AS I SAID, I HAVE NOT

 

 

SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT THE PROJECT. MY

 

 

RECOLLECTION WAS THE PROJECT WAS -- WAS BEING PUT

 

 

INTO PLACE, OR WAS IN PLACE, AND THAT THEY WERE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 251

 

 

 

 

STARTING TO COLLECT DATA AT THIS ONE FIELD

 

 

LOCATION, I BELIEVE IT WAS, AND SOME GENERAL

 

 

THINGS, I THINK, ABOUT THE SIZE OF IT AND SO

 

 

FORTH.

 

 

Q. WAS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT IT WAS BEING

 

 

SUCCESSFUL OR NOT?

 

 

A. I THINK THERE WAS SOME OPTIMISM, YES, THAT IT WAS

 

 

SUCCESSFUL.

 

 

Q. IS THIS ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES? REMEMBER, I KEPT

 

 

TRYING TO GET YOU TO TELL ME WHAT ALTERNATIVES YOU

 

 

WERE IN FAVOR OF?

 

 

A. I THINK THE USE OF LIMESTONE OR CALCIUM WAS

 

 

MENTIONED AS A POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE, NOT THE

 

 

SPECIFIC RESEARCH PROJECT. I THINK I WOULD HAVE

 

 

RECOMMENDED RESEARCH BE DONE ON THIS TYPE OF TOPIC

 

 

FOR SURE. BUT I CAN'T SAY THAT I SPECIFICALLY

 

 

MENTIONED THE EXACT APPROACH THEY'RE USING, BUT IT

 

 

WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I ASSUM@E.

 

 

Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT ENDORSING THIS PARTICULAR

 

 

ALTERNATIVE AT THIS TIME?

 

 

A. NO, NOT AS -- I'M ENDORSING THE IDEA OF DOING

 

 

AND TRYING AS MANY OF THESE TECHNIQUES AS

 

 

POSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH AS GOOD A SOLUTION AS

 

 

POSSIBLE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 252

 

 

 

 

Q. IS THIS FIELD STUDY, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS IT A

 

 

FIELD APPLICATION OF LABORATORY WORK THAT

 

 

DR. PATRICK HAS DONE?

 

 

A. IT MAY VERY WELL BE AN EXTENSION OF WHAT HE

 

 

PRESENTED AS SOME LABORATORY WORK THAT HE HAD

 

 

DONE. THAT WOULD BE THE WAY THAT I WOULD ASSESS

 

 

THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DR. RADER IS THE NEXT PERSON ON MY LIST.

 

 

DID YOU RECOMMEND THAT DR. RADER BE INCLUDED AMONG

 

 

THEIR TESTIFYING WITNESSES?

 

 

A. I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I DID

 

 

OR DIDN'T. I THINK IN TERMS---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM

 

 

OF THE QUESTION BEFORE HE ANSWERS IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WHAT WAS WRONG WITH

 

 

THE FORM?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THAT HE SOMEHOW OBJECTED

 

 

AS TO WHO -- THAT HE SOMEHOW RECOMMENDED AS

 

 

TO WHO SHOULD TESTIFY IN THIS CASE.

 

 

A. WITNESS: SO, THE QUESTION IS, DID I

 

 

RECOMMEND HIM?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YES, SIR.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM, IF

 

 

THAT'S THE QUESTION.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 253

 

 

 

 

A. AS AN EXPERT, I THINK I MAY HAVE BEEN ASKED

 

 

WHETHER DR. RADER -- WAS IT MY OPINION WHETHER

 

 

DR. RADER -- I GUESS -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'D

 

 

SAY -- HIS WORK IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA WAS. YOU

 

 

KNOW, A LARGE -- WAS IT A LARGE DATABASE, HOW IT

 

 

WAS DONE, WHETHER HE WAS AN EXPERT IN THAT

 

 

PARTICULAR AREA; AND I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT HE

 

 

WOULD BE.

 

 

Q. ARE YOU INDICATING THAT THE ATTORNEYS SOLICITED

 

 

THE USE OF DR. RADER FROM YOU, IS THAT YOUR

 

 

TESTIMONY?

 

 

A. I THINK THEY -- NO, I'M NOT SURE -- I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER THE EXACT WAY IN WHICH THIS WAS DONE,

 

 

WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT -- AND I'M JUST TRYING

 

 

TO THINK OF HOW THAT WAS DONE. I THINK THEY

 

 

ACTUALLY WENT TO DR. RADER AND ASKED WHETHER HE

 

 

WOULD BE WILLING TO BE AN EXPERT IN THIS

 

 

PARTICULAR AREA.

 

 

OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, DID YOU

 

 

EVER SIT AND HELP PUT THE BIG PICTURE TOGETHER,

 

 

AND FIGURE OUT WHAT KINDS OF EXPERTS WERE NEEDED,

 

 

AND REBUTTAL EXPERTS, EXPERTS THAT HAD BEEN LISTED

 

 

BY OTHER PARTIES, DID YOU EVER PERFORM---

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 254

 

 

Q. --- THAT FUNCTION?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. HOW DID YOU COME ABOUT RECOMMENDING EXPERTS TO THE

 

 

ATTORNEYS?

 

 

A. WELL, ACTUALLY, I DID NOT GO IN WITH A PERCEIVED

 

 

IDEA OF RECOMMENDING EXPERTS. WHAT HAPPENS IS,

 

 

WHEN I WOULD MAKE PRESENTATIONS FROM TIME TO TIME,

 

 

THE WAY IT NORMALLY WOULD OCCUR IS PEOPLE WOULD

 

 

SAY WHAT DO I PERCEIVE AS AN AREA; WHAT IS AN AREA

 

 

OF INTEREST; WHAT IS AN AREA OF UNKNOWN; WHAT IS

 

 

AN AREA OF A POTENTIAL PROBLEM; WHAT IS -- AND AS

 

 

I WOULD REVIEW DOCUMENTS, WHAT IS AN AREA -- IN

 

 

SOME CASES, WHO MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE. LIKE I

 

 

MENTIONED THE OTHER DAY, BMPIS, WHO MIGHT BE

 

 

APPROPRIATE. AND I THINK -- WHEN I TALKED TO

 

 

THEM, I SAID IT WOULD BE MY RECOMMENDATION THAT

 

 

BMP'S WOULD BE LOOKED AT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. AND

 

 

THEY -- OF COURSE, THEN THEIR NEXT QUESTION IS, IF

 

 

THAT'S THE CASE, WHO WOULD DO THIS; AND I GAVE

 

 

A. THEM SOME NAMES. AND I WOULD QUITE OFTEN GIVE

 

 

THEM A LIST OF NAMES. AND THEY WOULD SELECT FROM

 

 

THAT LIST OF NAMES. QUITE OFTEN, THAT WAS A

 

 

VERBAL LIST. SOMETIMES IT WAS ONE NAME, SOMETIMES

 

 

IT WAS A LIST OF NAMES. BUT AFTER THEY WERE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 255

 

 

 

 

SELECTED, SOMETIMES I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THEY HAD

 

 

SELECTED. IN FACT, SOME OF THESE, THIS IS THE

 

 

FIRST TIME I'VE SEEN ACTUALLY A FULL, COMPLETE

 

 

LIST.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. HAS THIS BEEN SORT OF AN ITERATIVE PROCESS

 

 

SINCE 1988, 1989, WHERE YOU HAVE REVIEWED

 

 

DOCUMENTS AND MADE RECOMMENDATIONS OVER TIME?

 

 

A. NO. IN THE BEGINNING, AS I SAID, WHEN WE STARTED

 

 

THIS, I DON'T -- I DON'T BELIEVE THE CASE HAD EVEN

 

 

BEEN FILED.

 

 

Q. WELL, IT WAS FILED NOT TOO LONG AFTER---

 

 

A. NOT TOO LONG AFTER THAT.

 

 

Q. --- YOUR EARLY DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. WEDGWORTH.

 

 

A. BUT EARLY ON, I DID NOT -- I THINK, AS I SAID

 

 

BEFORE, WHAT HAPPENED IN SOME OF THOSE EARLY

 

 

MEETINGS, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO

 

 

BE WORKING PRIMARILY AS A CONSULTANT ON THE

 

 

LITIGATION CASE. I WAS NOT DOING THE: -- AND THAT

 

 

WAS NOT MY ROLE, AND I HAD MY RESEARCH TO DO. I

 

 

HAD TOO MUCH TO DO AS IT WAS. SO, FROM TIME TO

 

 

TIME, I BASICALLY WOULD MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS, AS I

 

 

SAID, FROM THESE PRESENTATIONS. IT WASN'T -- IT

 

 

WASN'T A FORMALIZED PROCESS; THEY WERE MORE

 

 

SERENDIPITY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 256

 

 

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DO YOU RECALL IS THE FIRST TIME

 

 

THAT YOU MADE THESE TYPES OF RECOMMENDATIONS, WHAT

 

 

YEAR?

 

 

A. PROBABLY -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN LATE f8@), '90,

 

 

SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. I CAN'T SAY ONE

 

 

MONTH OR ANOTHER. IT'S HARD TO SAY. AS I SAID,

 

 

THERE WAS NO FORMAL -- THERE WAS NO FORMAL, YOU

 

 

KNOW, THERE WAS NO FORMAL MEETING.

 

 

Q. YOU DIDN'T MEET TWICE A YEAR TO GO THROUGH THIS

 

 

PROCESS---

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. --- IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

 

 

A. NO. I WOULD MEET WITH EQC, OR I WOULD MEET

 

 

WITH -- PRESENTATIONS THAT I WOULD MAKE, AND

 

 

THEN SOMEONE WOULD ASK, BY THE WAY, WHAT DO YOU

 

 

THINK ABOUT THIS, OR, OH, WE HADN'T REALIZED

 

 

ABOUT THAT.

 

 

Q. DID THE EQC AND/OR ANY OF THESE OTHER COMMITTEES

 

 

MEET MAYBE ONCE A YEAR, AT LEAST?

 

 

A. OH, I THINK THEY MEET SEVERAL -- WELL,, I THINK

 

 

THEY MEET -- I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT SURE HOW OFTEN

 

 

THEY MEET. THEY MAYBE MEET ONCE A MONTH, ONCE

 

 

EVERY OTHER MONTH, I'M NOT SURE. BUT I DID NOT

 

 

ATTEND VERY MANY OF THOSE MEETINGS. I WOULD ONLY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 257

 

 

 

 

BE ASKED TO ATTEND -- MAKE A PRESENTATION MAYBE

 

 

TWICE A YEAR. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE.

IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THAT MUCH. I CAN'T REMEMBER

 

 

THE -- I DIDN'T REALLY KEEP A CLOSE PRACK.

 

 

USUALLY I'D BE IN THE FIELD WORKING AND THEY WOULD

SAY, COULD YOU COME BY ON THURSDAY AFTERNOON, AND

 

 

THEY WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, A MEETING GOING ON, AND

 

 

THEN I WOULD SIT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY

 

 

FINISHED THEIR MEETING, AND THEN I WOULD COME FOR

 

 

MY HOUR OR WHATEVER THE PRESENTATION---

 

 

Q. SURE. SURE.

 

 

A. --- AND THEN THEY WOULD ASK ME TO LEAVE AGAIN,

 

 

SINCE THEY WERE DISCUSSING.

 

 

Q. SURE. AND WHO WOULD NORMALLY ATTEND THE EQC

 

 

MEETINGS?

 

 

A. THE EQC BOARD, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL IT.

 

 

Q. BUT WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

 

 

A. ED BARBER; BOB BUKER; GEORGE WEDGWORTH, IN THE

 

 

BEGINNING; FANJUL---

 

 

Q. WHICH ONE?

 

 

A. ALEX. SOME PEOPLE -- BILL TARR; PHII, PARSONS;

 

 

OCCASIONALLY BILL EARL. THERE ARE OTHER

 

 

REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE LEAGUE, SOME OF THE

 

 

SMALLER GROWERS, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 258

 

 

 

 

Q. MR. STEIN, FRITZ STEIN?

 

 

A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN AT SOME OF THE EARLY MEETINGS.

 

 

I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT ANY RECENT MEETINGS THAT I

 

 

HAVE BEEN TO, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN TO ANY OF THOSE

 

 

MEETINGS IN, GOSH, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHEN.

 

 

Q. MR. BEARDSLEY?

 

 

A. MR. BEARDSLEY.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW MR. BEARDSLEY.

 

 

Q. MR. HUNDLEY?

 

 

A. HUNDLEY. THE NAME SOUNDS FAMILIAR, BUT I DON'T

 

 

KNOW. THERE ARE SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS WHO SIT ON

 

 

THAT COMMITTEE WHO SAY ALMOST NOTHING. SO, I

 

 

DON'T---

 

 

Q. MR. SCHLECHTER?

 

 

A. THAT NAME -- I MEAN, THAT NAME DOESN'T RING A

 

 

BELL, BUT---

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT DOES EQC STAND FOR?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE IT'S THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY

 

 

CONTROL, OR ENVIRONMENTAL SOMETHING LIKE

 

 

THAT.

 

 

Q. COMMITTEE?

 

 

A. COMMITTEE.

 

 

Q. AND WHAT'S THE PURPOSE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 259

 

 

 

 

A. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PURPOSE OF THAT

 

 

MEETING IS -- AS IT WAS EXPLAINED TO ME BY GEORGE

 

 

WEDGWORTH, WHICH I BELIEVE HE FOUNDED IT -- WAS TO

 

 

MEET WITH THE PRINCIPALS OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVES

 

 

TO TRY TO PREDETERMINE PENDING ENVIRONMENTAL AREAS

 

 

OF CONCERN; TO TRY TO COME UP WITH THE

 

 

RECOMMENDATIONS; TO TRY TO GATHER INFORMATION SO

 

 

THAT THEY MAY BE ABLE TO RECTIFY PROBLEMS THAT MAY

 

 

OCCUR. I WAS TOLD, FOR EXAMPLE, THAI' SOME OF THE

 

 

EARLY WORK THEY HAD WORKED ON WAS AIR QUALITY IN

 

 

ONE OF THE AREAS. I'VE NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT,

 

 

BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY -- APPARENTLY ONE OF THE

 

 

FIRST PROJECTS THEY WORKED ON.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. DID MR. GREEN EVER ATTEND ANY OF

 

 

THESE MEETINGS, OR LAWYERS ATTEND ANY OF THESE

 

 

MEETINGS?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK I SAID BILL EARL WAS AT---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- SOME OF THESE MEETINGS.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. RICK BURGESS WAS AT SOME OF THESE MEETINGS.

 

 

BILL TARR.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER IF BILL GREEN ATTENDED. HE MAY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 260

 

 

 

 

HAVE ATTENDED ONE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE DID

 

 

OR NOT. AS YOU KNOW, THE CO-OP IS NOT A MEMBER OF

 

 

THE LEAGUE AT THE MOMENT, SO HE MAY NOT BE INVITED

 

 

TO THOSE MEETINGS. I'M NOT PRIVY TO WHO GETS

 

 

INVITED AND WHO DOESNFT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU SAY YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE EQC

 

 

WAS TO PREDETERMINE -- WHAT -- ENVIRONMENTAL

 

 

ISSUES OR THE -- NOW, THIS IS THE LEAGUE, THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE---

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- IT'S A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE?

 

 

A. RIGHT. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. GATHER INFORMATION, RECTIFY PROBLEMS.

 

 

WHAT -- IF IT WAS AN INFORMATION GATHERING,

 

 

PROBLEM RECTIFYING, FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE, WHY

 

 

THIS BUSINESS OF SEPARATING OUT WHO COULD ATTEND

 

 

THE MEETING; ONE PERSON COULD COME III AT A TIME;

 

 

HOW DID THAT COME TO BE?

 

 

A. WELL, I'M, AGAIN, NOT PRIVY TO ALL OF THAT, BUT IT

 

 

IS MY UNDERSTANDING -- I WAS TOLD NOT TO BE

 

 

INSULTED, THAT MANY PEOPLE WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THE

 

 

ROOM AT VARIOUS TIMES. AND PART OF THAT HAD TO

 

 

DO, I THINK, WHEN INDIVIDUAL CONSULTANTS WERE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 261

 

 

 

 

BEING -- WERE PRESENTING INFORMATION. PART OF IT

 

 

HAD TO DO WHEN THEY WOULD GO INTO, I THINK, SOME

 

 

EXECUTIVE SESSION ON FUNDING, WHICH MOST

 

 

ORGANIZATIONS DO. I BELIEVE---

 

 

Q. THE EQC HAD FUNDING RESPONSIBILITIES?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK THEY HAVE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR

 

 

NOT THEY WILL FUND. THEY GET REVIEWS ON

 

 

MATERIALS, PROPOSALS, AND I THINK THEY HAVE TO

 

 

MAKE INTERNAL DECISIONS, LIKE ANY ORGANIZATION,

 

 

AND I BELIEVE WHEN THEY MAKE THOSE DECISIONS,

 

 

THEY DO THAT -- AS I SAID, I'VE NEVER BEEN IN

 

 

THERE WHEN THEY'VE DONE THAT, BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD

 

 

THAT AS AN EXECUTIVE SESSION THEY BASICALLY DO

 

 

THAT.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. IS IT THE EQC THAT FUNDS THE DUKE WETLAND

 

 

CENTER, WHEN THEY WERE FIRST FUNDED? WHEN THEY

 

 

DID---

 

 

A. WELL, THE LEAGUE---

 

 

Q. --- THEIR FIRST---

 

 

A. --- THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- FUNDED IT.

 

 

Q. BUT WAS IT THE EQC THAT WOULD APPROVE YOUR FIRST

 

 

PROPOSAL, AND FUND---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 262

 

 

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO.

 

 

Q. --- YOUR FIRST YEAR'S WORK?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE SO. THE PILOT PROJECT, I BELIEVE---

 

 

Q. THE PILOT PROJECT, OKAY.

 

 

A. --- WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED THROUGH THE EQC

 

 

COMMITTEE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU PRESENT IT TO THE EQC, AS YOU

 

 

RECALL?

 

 

A. YES, I -- WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, I MADE: AN ORAL

 

 

PRESENTATION IN MY FIRST MEETING WITH SEVERAL

 

 

MEMBERS, AND THEN -- THAT'S SO LONG AGO, I'M

 

 

TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK I MADE A FORMAL ORAL

 

 

PRESENTATION, AND, OF COURSE, A WRITTEN -- THEY

 

 

HAD WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. I HAD ASKED YOU TO BRING ME THAT FIRST

 

 

PROPOSAL. WERE YOU ABLE TO LOCATE ONE,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I WAS BARELY ABLE TO GET MY CV. I HAVE LISA

 

 

LOOKING TO FIND IT.

 

 

Q. I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. AND

 

 

JANE RAIKES, ARE WE STILL TRACKING THAT ONE

 

 

DOWN?

 

 

A. I AM NOW TRYING TO GET THAT FOR YOU, ALSO.

 

 

Q. THANK YOU.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 263

 

 

 

 

A. I WILL DO MY BEST.

 

 

Q. DOES THE EQC, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE -- DC) THEY

 

 

ACTUALLY FUND DIRECTLY FROM THAT COMMITTEE, IF --

 

 

LIKE, SUCH AS YOUR PILOT PROJECT? WOULD THEY

 

 

ACTUALLY FUND DIRECTLY THROUGH THAT ('OMMITTEE,

 

 

OR WOULD IT BE FUNDED THROUGH THE ENTIRE FLORIDA

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT INTERNALLY WORKS, HOW THEY

 

 

DO THAT. I DO KNOW IT'S A RECOMMENDING BODY,

 

 

AND IT -- OBVIOUSLY SOME OF THE PRIN(,IPLES

 

 

INVOLVED.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHO TOLD YOU NOT TO BE INSULTED THAT

 

 

YOU WERE BEING EXCLUDED FROM CERTAIN PORTIONS OF

 

 

THE MEETINGS?

 

 

A. OH, I THINK THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE. PEOPLE WHO WERE

 

 

ALSO STANDING IN THE HALLWAY; PEOPLE WHO WERE

 

 

COMING AND GOING HAVE BEEN TOLD AT VARIOUS TIMES,

 

 

DON'T BE INSULTED, MANY PEOPLE ARE ASKED TO LEAVE.

 

 

SOME ARE NOT ASKED TO RETURN.

 

 

Q. DO YOU RECALL WHO ANY OF THESE OTHER PEOPLE

 

 

STANDING OUT IN THE HALL WAITING WERE?

 

 

A. NOT REALLY, IT WAS SO LONG AGO. BUT, I MEAN---

 

 

Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS SORT OF DIRECTLY,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, JUST---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 264

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I HOPE ALL YOUR

 

 

QUESTIONS ARE DIRECT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I THINK THEY ARE; I

 

 

TRY TO BE. IT'S ONE OF MY FAULTS.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RADER IS A PAIL) CONSULTANT

 

 

FOR ENVIRONMENTAL PERMITTING SERVICES, I GUESS.

 

 

HE RECEIVES A MONTHLY STIPEND OR SALARY OR

 

 

WHATEVER FOR SEVERAL YEARS. DO YOU ALSO RECEIVE A

 

 

TYPE OF ONGOING CONSULTANT FEE?

 

 

A. FROM?

 

 

Q. ANY ENTITY.

 

 

A. I MEAN, IT'S---

 

 

Q. DO YOU RECEIVE ONE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE

 

 

LEAGUE -- I WOULD ASSUME WOULD BE MY MORE LIKELY

 

 

GUESS?

 

 

A. I AM PAID FOR MY SERVICES AS RENDEREE) ON A TASK

 

 

BASIS, OR ON AN HOURLY BASIS.

 

 

Q. BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. MANY PEOPLE. I DO CONSULTING NOT ONLY FOR THE

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, BUT FOR---

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. --- THE EPA, AND THE GOVERNMENT---

 

 

Q. SURE, I UNDERSTAND THAT, THAT YOU PROBABLY DO

 

 

CONSULTING WORK FOR MANY DIFFERENT ENTITIES.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 265

 

 

 

 

A. --- THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. WHEN I GO THROUGH YOUR CV, I'LL GO THROUGH

 

 

THOSE OTHERS. BUT RIGHT NOW I'M REALLY FOCUSING

 

 

ON THE EVERGLADES. AND I WOULD LIKE TO FOCUS ON,

 

 

DOES THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE PAY YOU, ON AN

 

 

HOURLY OR A DAILY BASIS, A CONSULTING FEE?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT IS THAT?

 

 

A. WELL, IT DEPENDS, AGAIN, ON THE TASK. I COULD BE

 

 

PAID BY THE HOUR.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. AND THAT WOULD BE HOW MUCH PER HOUR?

 

 

A. IT DEPENDS ON THE JOB. IT RANGES FROM A HUNDRED

 

 

TO A HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS ($100.00 TO

 

 

$150.00) AN HOUR FOR SCIENTIFIC WORK.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND THEN ARE YOU ALSO PAID ON A DAILY BASIS

 

 

SOME CERTAIN TIMES?

 

 

A. OCCASIONALLY. OCCASIONALLY, IT'S DONE --

 

 

DEPENDING ON HOW I DO CONSULTANCY WORK. CERTAIN

 

 

TASKS SOMETIMES REQUIRE ONLY A COUPLE OF HOURS,

 

 

BUT I HAVE TO LEAVE, YOU KNOW, AT SIX IN THE

 

 

MORNING, AND DON'T GET HOME TILL TEN AT NIGHT,

 

 

AND THERE MAY ONLY BE TWO HOURS OF ACTUAL WORK,

 

 

BUT -- SO, I DO THAT, MAKE MORE ON A DAILY BASIS

 

 

BECAUSE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 266

 

 

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. ---IT WOULD NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO DO IT OTHERWISE,

 

 

SO.

 

 

Q. AND WHAT WOULD THE DAILY FEE BE?

 

 

A. I GENERALLY CHARGE SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD

 

 

OF -- IT DEPENDS -- A THOUSAND TO TWO THOUSAND A

 

 

DAY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE

 

 

THOUSAND TO TWO THOUSAND?

 

 

A. WHETHER I HAVE TO DO WEEKENDS; WHETHER I HAVE TO

 

 

DO LEGAL TESTIFYING, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THINGS LIKE

 

 

THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHEN WERE YOU FIRST -- WHEN DID YOU FIRST

 

 

ENTER THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FLORIDA SUGAR

 

 

CANE LEAGUE? IN WHICH YEAR?

 

 

A. PROBABLY '89, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND THEN WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, IS FOR THE YEARS THAT YOU HAVE

 

 

WORKED ON THESE MATTERS, I WOULD LIKE THE AMOUNT

 

 

THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED FOR THIS CONSULTANT FEE

 

 

FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IN 1989, YOU

 

 

RECEIVED HOW MUCH TOTAL CONSULTANT FEE?

 

 

A. I DON'T HAVE IT BROKEN DOWN BY INDIVIDUAL

 

 

COMPANIES, SO I REALLY WOULDN'T -- I REALLY DON'T

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 267

 

 

KNOW.

 

 

Q. YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF YOU RECEIVED TEN THOUSAND OR

 

 

TWENTY THOUSAND---

 

 

A. IN '89?

 

 

Q. --- SIXTY THOUSAND, EIGHTY THOUSAND, A HUNDRED

 

 

THOUSAND?

 

 

A. WELL, I'M TRYING TO THINK. I REALLY DONFT KNOW.

 

 

I HAVE NOT LOOKED AT MY TAX RECORDS FOR 189, SO

 

 

I COULDNFT REALLY TELL YOU. I COULD SAY IT

 

 

VARIES FROM QUARTER TO QUARTER; AND IT VARIES FROM

 

 

TIME TO TIME, SO I REALLY DON'T KNOW, IN ALL

 

 

HONESTY.

 

 

WELL, I'M REALLY ENTITLED TO KNOW. CAN YOU CHECK

 

 

THOSE RECORDS TONIGHT AND ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

 

 

TOMORROW, YOUR TAX RETURNS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DONFT THINE HE HAS

 

 

AN OBLIGATION TO DO THAT, MS. PONZOLI.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OH, I THINK HE DOES,

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS; I THINK ABSOLUTELY I HAVE A

 

 

A. RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT HE HAS RECEIVED IN

 

 

CONSULTANT FEES.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YOU CAN'T GIVE MY

 

 

WITNESSES HOMEWORK, MA'AM. YOU CANNOT

 

 

GIVE MY WITNESSES HOMEWORK.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 268

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I CAN REQUIRE THAT

 

 

YOU TELL ME WHAT HE HAS BEEN PAID AS A

 

 

CONSULTANT---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YOU CAN ASK HIM

 

 

QUESTIONS---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- FOR THE FLORIDA

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: --- AND HE CAN ANSWER

 

 

THOSE QUESTIONS, BUT YOU CAN'T ASK HIM TO

 

 

GO HOME AND DO HOMEWORK AND YOU KNOW IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, MR. BURGESS, WHAT

 

 

HE MADE -- YOU'RE GOING TO ASK EVERY ONE OF

 

 

MY PEOPLE, AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK YOURS.

 

 

THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT'S UNKNOWN. IT

 

 

ISN'T AN UNHEARD OF THING THAT PEOPLE ARE

 

 

PAID FOR THESE TASKS, SO.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: AND HE CAN ANSWER YOUR

 

 

QUESTIONS TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY--19

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. YOU'RE TELLING---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: --- WHICH HEFS TRYING

 

 

TO DO.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, IS IT CLOSER TO A HUNDRED

 

 

THOUSAND, DR. RICHARDSON, THAN TEN THOUSAND, FOR

 

 

589?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 269

 

 

 

 

A. WELL -- FOR 189?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. THE REASON I'M HESITATING, I CAN'T REMEMBER IN '89

 

 

EXACTLY, BECAUSE I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS '89

 

 

OR '90---

 

 

Q. WELL---

 

 

A. ---I DID -- BASICALLY, AS I SAID, I HAVE A NUMBER

 

 

OF CONSULTANCIES, I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY THE

 

 

AMOUNT---

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. --- SO, IF YOU SAY -- IF YOU GIVE ME THAT RANGE,

 

 

TEN TO A HUNDRED, IT'S PROBABLY CLOSER TO A

 

 

HUNDRED THAN TEN, BUT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT 1990?

 

 

A. AGAIN, THE SAME THING.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK A HUNDRED IS PROBABLY A FAIR

 

 

APPROXIMATION?

 

 

A. NOT FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, NO. IT MAY BE FOR

 

 

SOME OF THOSE YEARS.

 

 

Q. IS IT LOW OR HIGH?

 

 

A. WHAT?

 

 

Q. THE HUNDRED.

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. I---

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW?

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 270

 

 

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. FOR 1991, IS IT THE SAME?

 

 

A. IT'S APPROXIMATELY IN THAT BALLPARK.

 

 

Q. THE SAME IN 192?

 

 

A. AGAIN, AS I SAID, I DONFT -- IT MAY BE IN THAT

 

 

RANGE OF TEN TO A HUNDRED.

 

 

Q. WELL, NO, WE HAD SAID, WAS IT CLOSER TO TEN OR

 

 

CLOSER TO A HUNDRED, AND YOU SAID IT WOULD

 

 

PROBABLY BE CLOSER TO A HUNDRED. SO, I'M ASSUMING

 

 

IT'S CLOSER TO A HUNDRED FOR EACH OF THOSE YEARS

 

 

SHORT OF YOUR MEMORY THAT IT WAS NOT.

 

 

A. RIGHT. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. AS I

 

 

SAID, IT VARIES FROM TIME TO TIME---

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. --- SO, IF---

 

 

Q. DO YOU RECALL OVER THE PERIOD FROM 189 TO THE

 

 

PRESENT WHAT YOUR CONSULTING FEES FOR THE FLORIDA

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WOULD APPROXIMATELY TOTAL?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF IT'S FORTY THOUSAND OR

 

 

FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND?

 

 

A. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE FOUR HUNDRED

 

 

THOUSAND.

 

 

Q. AND YOU DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE FORTY THOUSAND?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 271

 

 

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE -- HAVE YOU ALREADY PREPARED

 

 

YOUR TAX RETURN FOR APRIL?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU RECEIVED YOUR W-2'S BACK?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE RECEIVED YOUR FORMS BACK

 

 

FROM YOUR VARIOUS EMPLOYERS?

 

 

A. OH, THEY SELDOM -- THOSE SELDOM COME TILL

 

 

ALMOST -- SOME OF THOSE COME A MONTH BEFORE THE

 

 

DEADLINE. I HAVE FILED MY TAXES ON THE 15TH OF

 

 

APRIL FOR YEARS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WELL, DR. RICHARDSON, WHETHER YOU ARE

 

 

COMPELLED TO DO HOMEWORK OR NOT, I THINK I WOULD

 

 

ENCOURAGE YOU TO PLEASE REVIEW YOUR RECORDS AND

 

 

GIVE ME AS ACCURATE AN ANSWER AS YOU CAN IN THE

 

 

FOLLOWING DAYS.

 

 

ALL RIGHT. YOU HAVE DONE THESE CONSULTANT

 

 

HOURS, DAYS, FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I

 

 

WOULD ASSUME THAT JUST AS DR. RADER HAS ALSO BEEN

 

 

PAID A SEPARATE SALARY FOR BEING AN EXPERT WITNESS

 

 

FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, THAT YOU ALSO,

 

 

IS THAT ACCURATE OR NOT?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THAT YOU ALSO WHAT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 272

 

 

 

 

Q. ARE YOU ALSO PAID A SEPARATE FEE AS AN EXPERT

 

 

WITNESS, OR IS THAT BURIED INTO THIS CONSULTANCY

 

 

FEE? HE RECEIVES THREE SALARIES, DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

HE RECEIVES HIS DUKE WETLAND SALARY, HE RECEIVES A

 

 

MONTHLY---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: IS THIS TESTIMONY;

 

 

WHAT IS THIS?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: IT'S A QUESTION,

 

 

MR. BURGESS---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OKAY. LET'S GET TO IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- AND I'M NOT GETTING

 

 

ANSWERS.

 

 

Q. --- HE RECEIVES THREE SALARIES, AND I AM TRYING TO

 

 

DETERMINE IF YOU RECEIVE THREE SEPARATE SALARIES,

 

 

OR ONLY TWO---

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. --- ONE THROUGH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER FOR THE

 

 

WORK THAT'S DONE ON THE GRANT FOR THE EPD, AND

 

 

FIRST FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND THEN

 

 

ONE FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. DID I

 

 

CONFUSE YOU?

 

 

A. YEAH, YOU -- START OVER AGAIN.

 

 

Q. LET'S GO THROUGH YOUR SOURCES OF INCOME, THEN.

 

 

YOU GET INCOME AS AN EMPLOYEE OF DUKE AS A TENURED

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 273

 

 

 

 

PROFESSOR?

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. THAT'S HOW MUCH?

 

 

A. WELL---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK HE

 

 

NEEDS TO ANSWER THAT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OH, I THINK HE DOES.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DON'T.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, ARE YOU INSTRUCTING

 

 

HIM NOT TO ANSWER?

MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT. IT'S UP TO HIM.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

MR. GREEN: WELL, JUST AS A POINT OF

 

 

ORDER, WITHOUT AGREEING OR DISAGREEING WITH

 

 

ANYONE, I'D LIKE TO NOTE THAT MR. McCAUGHAN,

 

 

THE COUNSEL FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY, IS NOT

 

 

PRESENT, AND IT WOULD PROBABLY BE BEST TO

 

 

WAIT UNTIL HE IS TO ASK THESE QLJESTIONS,

 

 

BECAUSE TO THE EXTENT THAT SOME OF THIS

 

 

INFORMATION MAY BE PRIVILEGED, HE WOULD BE

 

 

THE ONE, AT LEAST IN PART, THAT WOULD BE

 

 

ENTITLED TO MAKE OBJECTIONS AS OPPOSED TO ME,

 

 

FOR EXAMPLE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES). WELL, THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 274

 

 

 

 

DEPOSITION BEGAN AT NINE, AND IT'S NEARLY

 

 

TEN-THIRTY, AND MR. McCAUGHAN SAID THAT WE

 

 

COULD START WITHOUT HIM, MR. GREEN, AND I

 

 

HAVE BEEN ENORMOUSLY PATIENT WITH WAITING

 

 

FOR OTHER COUNSEL FOR MY DEPOSITIONS TO

 

 

BEGIN, SO.

 

 

MR. GREEN: I AGREE THAT YOU HAVE, BUT

 

 

I DON'T THINK THAT WE'VE BEEN IN THIS

 

 

CIRCUMSTANCE BEFORE IN THIS DEPOSITION, AND

 

 

IT IS SCHEDULED FOR UP TO FIVE DAYS, AND I

 

 

THINK OUT OF RESPECT FOR OTHER COUNSEL, THAT

 

 

IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO DELAY THIS UNTIL

 

 

HE'S PRESENT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, THEN I'LL ASK

 

 

YOUR SALARY AS A TENURED PROFESSOR WHEN

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN RETURNS IN DEFERENCE TO

 

 

MR. GREEN'S SENSITIVITY.

 

 

MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.

 

 

WITNESS: OKAY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) BUT, I WOULD LIKE 9'0 GO ON TO

YOUR OTHER SOURCES OF INCOME. I WANT TO KNOW --

 

 

ALL RIGHT, SO YOU RECEIVE A TENURED FIROFESSORIS

 

 

SALARY, IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 275

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND THEN THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER PROVIDES

 

 

YOU WITH -- DOES IT PROVIDE YOU WITH A SEPARATE

 

 

SALARY, OR DOES EACH GRANT THAT'S DONE UNDER THERE

 

 

PROVIDE YOU WITH A SALARY?

 

 

A. NO, YOU HAVE -- WE HAVE A SINGLE SALARY FROM THE

 

 

UNIVERSITY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO, NOW, THE GRANT FROM THE EPD

 

 

WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH A SALARY, IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

A. NO. NO. WHEN YOU'RE A PROFESSOR AT A UNIVERSITY,

 

 

YOU HAVE ONE SALARY.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. AND THE SALARY IS A BASE SALARY.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. AND HOW YOU RECEIVE THAT SALARY -- IN OTHER WORDS,

 

 

IF I GET TEN BILLION DOLLARS ($10,000,000,000.00)

 

 

OF GRANTS---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. I GET A BASE SALARY. OKAY. NOW, THE SOURCE OF

 

 

WHERE THE SALARIES COME FROM CAN VARY, BUT THAT'S

 

 

ALL YOU CAN GET.

 

 

ALL RIGHT. SO, WHATEVER YOUR BASE SALARY IS --

 

 

EVEN IF IT'S PROVIDED BY THE EPD -- THE UNIVERSITY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 276

 

 

 

 

JUST SORT OF GETS A FREE RIDE---

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE---

 

 

Q. --- IS THAT ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: --- OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. NOT A FREE RIDE. I MEAN, BASICALLY, THIS IS A

 

 

STANDARD WAY UNIVERSITIES OPERATE. I'M NOT SURE

 

 

WHAT YOU MEAN BY FREE RIDE.

 

 

Q. WELL, IF -- WELL, I CAN GO THROUGH YOUR DOCUMENTS

 

 

WITH YOU AND SHOW YOU THAT THERE'S A SALARY

 

 

ALLOTTED TO YOU---

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. --- IN FACT, I CAN GIVE YOU THAT NUMBER, IF THAT

 

 

WOULD BE HELPFUL TO THIS DISCUSSION, AND MAYBE

 

 

THAT WOULD SAVE US WAITING FOR MR. McCAUGHAN.

 

 

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE AMOUNT I'M TALKING

 

 

ABOUT? IT'S FORTY-EIGHT THOUSAND, OR SOMETHING

 

 

LIKE THAT, I CAN'T REMEMBER.

 

 

WITNESS: COULD YOU JUST SHOW ME WHAT

 

 

YOU'RE REFERRING TO?

 

 

A. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. PROJECT DIRECTOR,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON -- THIS IS THE 193 BUDGET FROM

 

 

DOCUMENT NUMBER ONE.

 

 

DO I HAVE THESE? IFLL PASS THEM OUT.

 

 

LET ME GIVE YOU ONE, DR. RICHARDSON, AND YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 277

 

 

 

 

CAN START LOOKING AT IT, AND SEE IF YOU CAN

 

 

IDENTIFY IT.

MR. GREEN: WILL THIS BE EXHIBIT ONE?

 

 

MR. REID: NO, IT'LL BE EXHIBIT THREE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE RIGHT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE RIGHT. NO, YOU'RE

 

 

RIGHT, MR. REID.

 

 

WITNESS: I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE

 

 

HERE.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY

 

 

THIS DOCUMENT?

 

 

A. THIS DOCUMENT?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. LET ME LOOK AT IT HERE.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

Q. WELL, JUST SO THIS WILL BE ORDERLY AND I WON'T

 

 

FORGET, DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS

 

 

DOCUMENT---

 

 

A. THIS---

 

 

Q. --- IT'S A COMPOSITE DOCUMENT.

 

 

A. WELL, I WAS GOING TO SAY -- BECAUSE THERE ARE A

 

 

LOT OF PIECES THAT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 278

 

 

 

 

I MEAN, YOU'RE SAYING A PIECE OF IT. AND THE

 

 

FIRST PIECE -- THE FIRST PIECE THAT I CAN

 

 

RECOGNIZE IS OBVIOUSLY A LETTER FROM APRIL 20,

 

 

'92, TO CHARLES HAAS. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE

 

 

REFERRING TO?

 

 

Q. NO, SIR. THIS IS -- I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I

 

 

BELIEVE THIS IS, AND THEN YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT YOU

 

 

CAN IDENTIFY AND WHAT YOU CAN'T. THESE ARE

 

 

DOCUMENTS THAT WERE PRODUCED TO THE UNITED STATES.

 

 

YOU WILL NOTICE AT THE BOTTOM THEY ARE BATES

 

 

NUMBERED, A SERIES FROM 0009422 THROUGH 0009439.

 

 

AND IT IS -- AT LEAST MY BELIEF AS I SIT HERE --

 

 

THAT THIS WAS A FILE FROM YOUR FILES, BECAUSE IT

 

 

WAS PRODUCED WITH YOUR DOCUMENTS TO THE UNITED

 

 

STATES AND BATES STAMPED.

 

 

NOW, IN ORDER FOR ME TO HAVE IT ATTACHED TO

 

 

THE RECORD, I NEED FOR YOU TO IDENTIFY IT, AND

 

 

THEN WE'RE GOING TO MARK IT AS A COMPOSITE

 

 

EXHIBIT. I GUESS WHAT WOULD BE USEFUL IS IF YOU

 

 

RECOGNIZE THE WHOLE FILE AS YOURS, IF YOU WOULD

 

 

JUST SIMPLY TELL US THAT, AND THEN WE CAN TALK

 

 

ABOUT THE VERY FEW DOCUMENTS I'M INTERESTED IN.

 

 

OTHERWISE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO IDENTIFY WHAT IS

 

 

AND WHAT ISN'T YOURS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 279

 

 

 

 

A. I UNDERSTAND. AND I'M TRYING TO LOOK AT IT. I

 

 

HAVEN'T SEEN THIS. THE REASON I'M SAYING THIS IS

 

 

THIS APPEARS TO BE ACTUALLY OUT OF MY

 

 

ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT'S FILE.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. AND SO -- SHE KEEPS RECORDS -- SHE KEEPS THOSE

 

 

RECORDS FOR ME, SO I -- I AM NOT INTIMATELY

 

 

FAMILIAR WITH EVERY SINGLE FILE THAT SHE HAS, AND

 

 

IN WHAT ORDER. IN FACT, AS I TOLD YOU THIS

 

 

MORNING, SHE HAD TO FIND THE CURRICULUM VITAE.

 

 

IT APPEARS TO BE -- I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHICH

 

 

PARTICULAR FILE IT IS. IT APPEARS TO BE A FILE

 

 

THAT'S RELATED TO THE EPD. AND IF YOU'LL NOTICE,

 

 

LIKE THE FIRST LETTER, I DIDN'T EVEN SIGN IT; THAT

 

 

WAS SIGNED BY LISA PHELPS, AND THAT WAS SENT ON MY

 

 

BEHALF. SO, THAT -- AND THE SECOND ONE ARE SOME

 

 

HAND NOTES, THAT ARE NOT MINE. THE SAME WITH THE

 

 

THIRD, THE FOURTH; THOSE -- NONE OF THOSE ARE MY

 

 

NOTES. THE NEXT LETTER IS A LETTER THAT I SENT TO

 

 

ART KIRSTEIN. SO, I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS A EPD

 

 

FILE. I'D HAVE TO READ THE LETTERS IN DETAIL TO

 

 

SEE EXACTLY WHAT IT IS, BUT IT'S CORRESPONDENCE

 

 

BETWEEN MYSELF AND ART KIRSTEIN AND CHUCK HAAS FOR

 

 

THE EPD.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 280

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S MARK THIS

 

 

AS RICHARDSON COMPOSITE EXHIBIT NUMBER THREE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 3 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHERE WE WERE

 

 

WAS I WAS TRYING TO GET AT THE VARIOUS SALARIES,

 

 

OR STIPENDS, OR WHATEVER THAT YOU RECEIVE---

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. --- AND I SEE THAT THERE IS UNDER THE BUDGET FOR

 

 

'93, A TOTAL BUDGET OF NINE HUNDRED AND

 

 

TWENTY-THREE THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED AND

 

 

EIGHTY-SEVEN DOLLARS ($923,787.00). A PROJECT

 

 

DIRECTOR'S SALARY AND WAGE OF FORTY-SEVEN THOUSAND

 

 

NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE ($47,979.00).

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

NOW, DO YOU RECEIVE THAT MONEY DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. AS PART OF MY TOTAL UNIVERSITY SALARY, I RECEIVE

 

 

SOME PORTION OF THAT SALARY.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T GET THE WHOLE FORTY-SEVEN NINE HUNDRED

 

 

AND SEVENTY-NINE?

 

 

A. IT'S VERY LIKELY THAT I WOULD NOT RECEIVE THE

 

 

WHOLE FORTY-SEVEN NINE SEVENTY-NINE, BUT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 281

 

 

 

 

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I DID OR I DIDN'T, IF MY

 

 

BASE SALARY -- LETFS JUST SAY HYPOTHETICALLY --

 

 

WAS SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- I WOULD GET SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND FROM THE

 

 

UNIVERSITY.

 

 

Q. AND THEN THEY WOULD, LIKE, PRORATE YOUR VARIOUS

 

 

SALARIES AND WAGES FROM YOUR VARIOUS GRANTS TOWARD

 

 

THAT SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND---

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- OR WHAT?

 

 

A. CORRECT---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- THEY COULD DO THAT. BUT I -- MY BASE SALARY

 

 

FROM THE UNIVERSITY IS -- AND THAT IS ON A

 

 

NINE-MONTH BASIS, AND THAT IS PRIMARILY PAID BY

 

 

THE UNIVERSITY FOR DIRECTOR RESPONSIBILITIES,

 

 

FOR TEACHING, FOR GUIDANCE STUDENTS, FOR THE

 

 

NORMAL PROFESSORIAL ACTIVITIES.

 

 

AND THERE ARE AN ADDITIONAL AT DUKE

 

 

UNIVERSITY, THERE'S AN ADDITIONAL SINCE WE'RE

 

 

NOT PAID IN THE SUMMERTIME -- AN ADDITIONAL PERIOD

 

 

OF TIME WHICH WE'RE ALLOWED TO DO RESEARCH GRANTS

 

 

TO SUPPLEMENT OUR BASE SALARY. THIS IS WHAT PART

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 282

 

 

 

 

OF THIS WOULD COME FROM.

 

 

Q. WOULD THIS GO INTO YOUR SUMMER RESEARCH GRANT

 

 

SALARY, IS THAT THE WAY---

 

 

A. PART OF IT COULD---

 

 

Q. ---YOU THINK IT MIGHT WORK?

 

 

A. --- PART OF IT COULD. AND PART OF IT COULD-BE

 

 

BASED BACK TOWARDS MY BASE SALARY. I DON'T -- AND

 

 

THE REASON -- I'M NOT HESITATING -- THE REASON

 

 

THAT I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT IS BECAUSE IT

 

 

SHIFTS FROM SEMESTER TO SEMESTER DEPENDING UPON

 

 

THE UNIVERSITY'S ACCOUNTING, MY ACTIVITIES.

 

 

SO, AT ANY ONE PARTICULAR TIME IF YOU ASK

 

 

ME WHERE MY BASE SALARY COMES FROM, I COULDN'T

 

 

TELL YOU EXACTLY PENNY FOR PENNY WHERE IT COMES

 

 

FROM.

 

 

WELL, DESPITE WHERE YOUR BASE SALARY COMES FROM,

 

 

IF I HEAR YOU RIGHT, YOU'RE TELLING ME THE

 

 

NINE-MONTH SALARY CAN EXCEED THIS, FOR EXAMPLE,

 

 

SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND, IF THAT WERE YOU BASE

 

 

SALARY. IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE I FOLLOWED YOU. REPEAT THAT,

 

 

PLEASE.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, I'M NOT MAKING THIS HARD; THIS

 

 

COULD BE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 283

 

 

 

 

A. I KNOW.

 

 

Q. --- VERY EASY.

 

 

A. I UNDERSTAND, BUT I'M JUST TRYING TO BE CLEAR.

 

 

Q. I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE UNIVERSITY REIMBURSES

 

 

YOU; I WANT To KNOW HOW MUCH THE EPD REIMBURSES

 

 

YOU FOR THE SERVICES THAT YOU PROVIDE; I WANT TO

 

 

KNOW HOW MUCH THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE

 

 

REIMBURSES YOU; I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE

 

 

COOPERATIVE AND/OR IF THE LEAGUE GIVES YOU A

 

 

SEPARATE ADDITIONAL SALARY. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT

 

 

I WANT TO KNOW.

 

 

A. OKAY. WELL, ASK THEM IN ORDER. I MEAN, I'VE TOLD

 

 

YOU I HAVE A BASE SALARY, AND I HAVE---

 

 

Q. AND YOU WON'T TELL -- AND COUNSEL BELIEVE I CANNOT

 

 

GET---

 

 

A. I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO WAIT FOR RALPH

 

 

McCAUGHAN TO APPEAR.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT YOU'RE EXPLAINING TO ME THAT THAT BASE

 

 

SALARY WORKS IN SOME FAIRLY ESOTERIC WAYS AT LEAST

 

 

A. TO LAYMEN WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF THE UNIVERSITY

 

 

SYSTEM?

 

 

A. BUT ITTS A VERY STANDARD WAY. I THINK IF YOU ASK

 

 

DR. KADLEC OR ANY OTHER PROFESSOR, IT'S A VERY

 

 

STANDARD PROCEDURE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 284

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- FOR MOST UNIVERSITIES WHO ARE MAJOR RESEARCH

 

 

UNIVERSITIES. IT'S A VERY STANDARD PROCEDURE.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. SO, THERE'S NOTHING MAGIC ABOUT IT, BUT---

 

 

Q. I ACCEPT THAT. I ACCEPT THAT IT'S DONE THAT WAY.

 

 

I REALIZE THERE'S SOME WAY THEY DO THESE THINGS,

 

 

AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND. I GUESS IF YOU CAN

 

 

EXPLAIN IT TO ME -- IF YOU WERE ALLOWED TO GIVE

 

 

ME THE ACTUAL FIGURES, THAT WOULD PROBABLY HELP.

 

 

ALL RIGHT. MAYBE -- WAIT A MINUTE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, MS. PONZOLI

 

 

CONFERS WITH HER EXPERTS.)

 

 

(BY MS. PONZOLI) I HAVE BEEN ADVISED THAT I'M

 

 

GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME DOING THIS WITHOUT YOUR

 

 

BASE SALARY, BUT I'M GOING TO KEEP TRYING.

 

 

DO YOU RECEIVE BY THE END OF THE YEAR THIS

 

 

FORTY-SEVEN NINE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-NINE

 

 

($47,979.00), ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, IN THE SUMMER

 

 

OR IT'S APPLIED TO YOUR BASE SALARY DURING THE

 

 

YEAR, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. WELL, THIS IS '93, SO I HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER I

 

 

WILL OR WILL NOT RECEIVE THIS.

 

 

Q. WAS IT SIMILAR IN '92, YOUR BASE SALARY? BECAUSE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 285

 

 

 

 

I CAN RECONSTRUCT IT FROM OTHER DOCUMENTS IF YOU

 

 

WANT ME TO.

 

 

A. WELL, IT GOES UP BY SOME PERCENTAGE, BUT

 

 

WHETHER---

 

 

Q. FIVE PERCENT (5%)?

 

 

A. I THINK IT'S FIVE PERCENT (5%) ---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, IF WE TOOK FIVE PERCENT (5%) OFF OF

 

 

THIS, WE'D HAVE LAST YEAR'S---

 

 

A. NOT NECESSARILY, BECAUSE WHAT I DO IS -- ON THIS

 

 

PARTICULAR SALARY -- I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS

 

 

MORE DIFFICULT -- BUT WHAT I DO FOR THIS

 

 

PARTICULAR THING IS WE BASICALLY -- I HAVE A BASE

 

 

SALARY, AND I MAY GO IN AND, SAY, TAKE FIVE

 

 

PERCENT (5%) FROM THIS, CARRY THIS OVER, I NEED TO

 

 

COVER -- IN THE SALARIES AND WAGES COMPARTMENT,

 

 

AND THE WAY GRANTS WORK, I CAN TELL YOU, FOR

 

 

INSTANCE, THAT THE SALARIES THAT ARE LISTED THERE

 

 

FOR THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT EXACT. IN FACT, IN SOME

 

 

CASES, THEY'RE CONSIDERABLY HIGHER THAN THE TIME

 

 

THAT THEY HAVE SPENT ON THOSE, IT JUST DEPENDS.

 

 

SOME PEOPLE MAY BE GETTING MORE; SOME PEOPLE MAY

 

 

BE GETTING LESS OF THOSE SALARIES.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 286

 

 

 

 

Q. IS WHAT YOUTRE TELLING ME IS THAT WITHIN THE

 

 

GRANT, YOU HAVE CERTAIN FREEDOM TO SHIFT THE FUNDS

 

 

AROUND, AND---

 

 

A. YES. AND, QUITE OFTEN, I WILL TAKE PORTIONS OF MY

 

 

SALARY AND GIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE, ESPECIALLY IF

 

 

THEY THREATEN TO LEAVE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GETTING

 

 

ENOUGH MONEY---

 

 

Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S JUST ASSUME -- LET'S ASSUME

 

 

THAT FOR PURPOSES OF---

 

 

A. --- OR HAVE A BETTER OFFER.

 

 

Q. --- OUR DISCUSSION THAT YOU HAVE NOT NEEDED TO

 

 

SHIFT FUNDS, OKAY, THAT YOU'VE LEFT THEM PRETTY

 

 

MUCH IN PLACE, THE BUDGET, YOU KNOW, IS FENCED,

 

 

AND WE'RE LEAVING THINGS AS THEY'VE BEEN STATED.

 

 

AND WE TAKE FIVE PERCENT (5%) OFF, AND THATFS

 

 

ROUGHLY---

 

 

A. THAT'S THE MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOCATED,

 

 

ROUGHLY, TOWARDS MY SALARY.

 

 

Q. WOULD YOU BY THE END OF '92 HAVE RECEIVED THAT,

 

 

EITHER IN YOUR SUMMER GRANT MONEY, OR AS APPLIED

 

 

TO YOUR BASE SALARY?

 

 

A. I WOULD HAVE RECEIVED A PORTION OF IT, BUT I

 

 

CANNOT TELL YOU THE PROPORTION, IN ALL HONESTY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. THE OTHER PORTION OF IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 287

 

 

 

 

SOME OTHER PART OF WHERE YOU SPENT THE GRANT

 

 

MONEY?

 

 

A. IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO SOME OTHER -- SOME OTHER

 

 

NEEDS. WE'VE HAD PRETTY EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH NEEDS

 

 

FOR OTHER PERSONNEL, FOR PEOPLE. I HIRE A LOT OF

 

 

STUDENT ASSISTANTS. SO, IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO

 

 

SOMEONE'S SALARY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. OKAY. IS IT FENCED AS TO SALARY, YOU CAN'T

 

 

MOVE SALARIES OUT OF SALARIES TO FIELDWORK OR

 

 

LABORATORY?

 

 

A. THIS PARTICULAR GRANT, IN ITS CONCEPTION -- WE

 

 

HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH VARIOUS ITERATIONS -- HAS

 

 

BEEN REASONABLY FLEXIBLE. THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE

 

 

BENEFITS OF THIS, IN THAT WE COULD---

 

 

Q. OKAY. OKAY.

 

 

A. ---WE COULD MOVE IT FROM SOME CATEGORIES TO

 

 

OTHERS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- BUT I TRY TO KEEP IT WITHIN A CERTAIN REALM.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. BUT AM I CORRECT THAT ON TOP OF YOUR

 

 

BASE SALARY, SOME PORTION OF THIS GRANT SALARY AND

 

 

WAGE WOULD BE APPLIED TO YOUR SUMMER INCOME---

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 288

 

 

 

 

A. THAT IS CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. THAT IS CORRECT. OKAY. SO, YOU'RE

 

 

RECEIVING A BASE SALARY, AND YOU'RE RECEIVING A

 

 

GRANT FROM THIS ONE, AND/OR OTHER GRANTS---

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. --- YOU'RE RECEIVING THAT?

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. YOU ARE RECEIVING A CONSULTING FEE THAT YOU CANNOT

 

 

RECALL---

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. --- WHAT IT IS?

 

 

A. I'M RECEIVING MANY CONSULTING FEES, 'THOUGH.

 

 

Q. WELL, I UNDERSTAND, BUT WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT

 

 

THE ONE WE'RE INTERESTED IN.

 

 

A. BUT YOU PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER WHEN YOU DO YOUR TAX

 

 

RETURNS, PUT THEM IN THE SUM---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- AND THEN YOU ASK FOR WHAT PARTICULAR PARTS ARE,

 

 

IT'S NOT EASY, IF I HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT

 

 

A. THOSE, AND I DON'T DO IT THAT WAY. THE GOVERNMENT

 

 

DOESN'T ASK YOU TO SIMPLY LIST THE THING, BUT PUT

 

 

YOUR TOTAL INCOME DOWN. AND SO IN THE END, YOU

 

 

END UP WITH A NUMBER.

 

 

SURE. SURE. WHAT IS THE TOTAL NUMBER FOR

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 289

 

 

 

 

CONSULTING FEES THAT YOU END UP WITH?

 

 

A. WELL, THAT -- IT'S HARD TO SAY FROM YEAR TO YEAR,

 

 

I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

Q. WHAT DID YOU END UP WITH, ROUGHLY, IN '92 FOR

 

 

CONSULTING FEES?

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T SUMMARIZED IT FOR 192.

 

 

Q. YOU HAVE NO IDEA?

 

 

A. I HAVEN'T -- I DON'T DO THAT UNTIL SOME TIME IN

 

 

APRIL.

 

 

Q. DO YOU HANDLE THE FINANCIAL MATTERS IN YOUR

 

 

FAMILY, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. PRETTY MUCH.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECEIVE AN ADDITIONAL

 

 

INCOME FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK, THE FLORIDA

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AS AN EXPERT WITNESS FOR, LIKE,

 

 

SITTING HERE OR TESTIFYING AT TRIAL?

 

 

A. I WILL BE PAID FOR MY TIME TO TESTIFY AT TRIAL,

 

 

THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. BUT IS THAT AN ADDITIONAL TO THIS CONSULTING FEE

 

 

THAT YOU CANNOT RECALL HOW MUCH IT IS?

 

 

A. WELL, IT WOULD BE -- IT WOULD BE -- I'LL BE PAID

 

 

FOR MY TIME. I DON'T KNOW WHAT AN ADDITIONAL TO

 

 

IT. I'M NOT PAID A STANDARD FEE. I DON'T HAVE A

 

 

STANDARD RETAINING FEE, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 290

 

 

 

 

ASKING. I HAVE NO---

 

 

Q. LIKE DR. RADER GETS HUNDRED DOLLARS ($800.00) ---

 

 

A. I HAVE NO---

 

 

Q. --- MONTH, YOU DON'T GET THAT TYPE OF---

 

 

A. --- I HAVE NO STANDARD RETAINER FEE. IF THAT --

 

 

MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- I HAVE NO RETAINING FEE.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. OKAY. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE ASKING THAT.

 

 

MAYBE I MISUNDERSTOOD.

 

 

Q. WELL, THAT WAS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN---

 

 

A. NO, NO.

 

 

Q. --- HE HAS THREE SEPARATE SOURCES---

 

 

A. NO, I DON'T HAVE A---

 

 

Q. --- OF INCOME ---

 

 

A. --- I HAVE NO ---

 

 

Q. --- REGARDING THIS SAME ISSUE.

 

 

A. --- I DO IT ON PER JOB BASIS---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- PER TASK, OR PER HOUR.

 

 

Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND THAT HAS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE

 

 

'88, '89?

 

 

A. I HAVE NEVER HAD A RETAINING FEE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 291

 

 

Q. OKAY. OKAY.

 

 

A. I'M SORRY IF I MISUNDERSTOOD YOU.

 

 

Q. THAT'S FINE. ARE YOU ALSO PAID A SEPARATE EXPERT

 

 

WITNESS FEE BY THE COOPERATIVE?

 

 

A. I WILL BE PAID FOR MY SERVICES RELATED TO

 

 

INFORMATION I PROVIDED TO THE CO-OP, THAT'S

 

 

CORRECT.

 

 

Q. ON A CONSULTING BASIS?

 

 

A. ON A CONSULTING BASIS.

 

 

Q. CONSULTING EXPERT WITNESS BASIS. NOW, AND WHAT IS

 

 

YOUR SALARY RANGE FOR THAT?

 

 

A. MY SCIENTIFIC SALARY RANGE IS A HUNDRED TO A

 

 

HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS ($100.00 TO $150.00) AN

 

 

HOUR. I THINK IT CURRENTLY IS A HUNDRED AND

 

 

FIFTY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND THE DAILY RATE?

 

 

A. IT WOULD BE THE SAME AS I MENTIONED BEFORE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, ON A DAY SUCH AS

 

 

TODAY, DR. RICHARDSON, WHERE YOU ARE APPEARING ON

 

 

BEHALF OF BOTH OF THEM, DO THEY, LIKE, SPLIT THE

 

 

COST FOR THE DAY, OR DO YOU GET DOUBLE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE -- I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.

 

 

Q. AFTER TODAY---

 

 

A. GOOD SUGGESTION.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 292

 

 

 

 

Q. --- THEY SHOULD PAY YOU DOUBLE, DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

MR. GREEN: WELL, I'D JUST LIKE TO

 

 

INSERT FOR THE RECORD, IF IT'S RELEVANT,

 

 

THAT I THINK COUNSEL FOR ALL---

 

 

WITNESS: HE ONLY WANTS HALF.

 

 

MR. GREEN: --- COUNSEL FOR ALL PARTIES

 

 

AGREED TO PROVIDE THEIR WITNESSES AT THEIR

 

 

OWN EXPENSE FOR DEPOSITIONS. JUST FOR THE

 

 

RECORD, I'D LIKE TO STATE THAT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WAS THAT PERSONAL EXPENSE

 

 

OR AT CLIENT'S EXPENSE?

 

 

MR. GREEN: WAS WHAT PERSONAL OR

 

 

CLIENT?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I'M JUST TEASING.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER

 

 

YOU'RE BEING PAID DOUBLE WHEN YOU---

 

 

A. OH, I -- I WOULD NOT BE BILLING DOUBLE FOR

 

 

THIS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I WOULD BE IT WOULD BE PRORATED. WE HAVE

 

 

NOT DISCUSSED HOW THAT WOULD BE DONE.

 

 

OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU TESTIFY AT TRIAL,, YOU'LL

 

 

RECEIVE PROBABLY THE SAME FEE, BUT JUST SPLIT

 

 

BETWEEN TWO CLIENTS?

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 293

 

 

A. THEY WILL HAVE TO---

 

 

Q. AND WHEN YOU---

 

 

A. ---AGREE OR DISAGREE HOW THEY DO THAT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU PERFORM A TASK THAT GOES TO

 

 

BOTH OF THEM, THEN YOU DO THE SAME THING, OR DO

 

 

YOU DOUBLE BILL?

 

 

A. OH, NO, I WOULD DO -- I'VE DONE VERY LITTLE THE

 

 

SAME FOR BOTH OF THEM IN TERMS OF THAT. NORMALLY,

 

 

AS I SAID BEFORE, WHAT WILL HAPPEN -- SINCE THE

 

 

CO-OP IS NO LONGER PART OF THE LEAGUE -- THE

 

 

LEAGUE WILL SAY, PLEASE COME AND TELL ME WHAT THE

 

 

PROJECT SUMMARY IS TO DATE, AND THEN THE CO-OP,

 

 

SINCE THEY ARE LEFT OUT, THEY WILL CALL ME AND

 

 

SAY, PLEASE COME AND TELL ME THE SUMMARY OF WHAT

 

 

IT IS TO DATE. SO, I HAVE TO DO IT TWICE.

 

 

Q. SO YOU GET PAID TWICE?

 

 

A. IF I HAVE TO DO THAT TWICE.

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. IF THEY WERE AT THE SAME MEETING, THEN YOU

 

 

WOULDN'T DO IT THAT WAY. BUT THEY MAKE ME COME

 

 

TWO DIFFERENT TIMES, SO, IN TERMS OF -- IF THEY

 

 

WANT THAT INFORMATION.

 

 

ALL RIGHT. WHEN WERE YOU FIRST HIRED BY THE CO-OP

 

 

AS AN EXPERT WITNESS CONSULTANT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 294

 

 

 

 

A. OH, THAT WAS VERY -- I -- THAT WAS VERY RECENT --

 

 

I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE. MAYBE IT' WAS -- IT

 

 

COULD HAVE BEEN '92.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR SALARY TO DATE FROM

 

 

THEM OR CONSULTING EXPERT WITNESS FEE HAS BEEN

 

 

FOR 192?

 

 

A. NO. AS I SAID, IT'S ALL LUMPED IN THAT GROUP.

 

 

Q. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU GET IN CONSULTANT

 

 

FEES PER YEAR? DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU GET ON AN

 

 

AVERAGE YEAR FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS?

 

 

A. I'D HAVE TO MAKE A ROUGH GUESS, BUT I COULD --

 

 

YOU KNOW---

 

 

Q. WHAT'S THE ROUGH GUESS?

 

 

A. WELL, IT'S PROBABLY CLOSE TO THAT HUNDRED THOUSAND

 

 

DOLLAR ($100,000.00) FIGURE, SOMEWHERE IN THERE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR CONSULTANT WORK IS

 

 

DONE IN RELATION TO EVERGLADES ISSUES, LET'S JUST

 

 

SAY THE COOPERATIVE, THE LEAGUE, WHATEVER?

 

 

A. WHAT PERCENTAGE IS WHAT, NOW, OF MY CONSULTANCY IS

 

 

DONE?

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. WELL, IT AGAIN VARIES BY YEAR. ONE 'YEAR, I WAS

 

 

YOU KNOW, I'D HAVE TO GO BACK. ONE YEAR, I HAD

 

 

VERY HEAVY CONSULTANCIES WITH THE GOVERNMENT. I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 295

 

 

 

 

WAS A CONSULTANT FOR EPA. I RAN THE USDA GRANTS

 

 

PROGRAM FOR A YEAR. I WAS PAID A FAIRLY HEFTY

 

 

PREMIUM TO RUN THAT PARTICULAR PROGRAM FOR A YEAR,

 

 

SO. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT AMOUNT, BUT IT WAS

 

 

IN -- YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, SO I CAN'T

 

 

TELL YOU WHAT THAT -- YOU KNOW. SOME YEARS, IT

 

 

MAY HAVE BEEN HALF FROM OTHER SOURCES; SOME YEARS

 

 

IT MAY HAVE BEEN ONLY TWENTY PERCENT. I WOULD

 

 

HAVE TO GO BACK, AND, AGAIN, I DON'T REMEMBER

 

 

BECAUSE SOME OF THE YEARS OVERLAP; THEY DON'T RUN

 

 

CONCURRENT. IN OTHER WORDS, SOME RUN IN, YOU

 

 

KNOW, HALF THE YEARS; AND, SOMETIMES, DEPENDING ON

 

 

WHEN YOU GET THE PARTICULAR CHECK, IT RUNS IN ONE

 

 

YEAR OR THE OTHER.

 

 

Q. UNCLE SAM HAS A WAY OF LUMPING IT INTO YEARS,

 

 

THOUGH.

 

 

A. YES. BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, IN MY OWN

 

 

MIND, WHICH YEAR IT FELL INTO.

 

 

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO, YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT

 

 

EIGHTY PERCENT -- FIFTY TO EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE

ESTIMATED HUNDRED THOUSAND ($100,000.00) WOULD BE

 

 

ATTRIBUTABLE TO THESE CONSULTANCIES, BUT YOU'RE

 

 

NOT---

 

 

A. DEPENDING UPON THE YEAR, I MEAN, AS I SAID.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 296

 

 

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE THERE ANY OTHER SOURCES OF INCOME

 

 

THAT YOU HAVE FROM THIS, DR. RICHARDSON, FROM

 

 

THESE EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES? ARE YOU PAID FOR

 

 

ANY OF THE SPEECHES THAT YOU GIVE AS YOU GO AROUND

 

 

THE COUNTRY, THE WORLD?

 

 

A. USUALLY EXPENSES. OCCASIONALLY, I GET AN

 

 

HONORARIA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT THOSE ARE NOT OF ANY REAL SIGNIFICANCE,

 

 

ARE THEY?

 

 

A. A FEW THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. I MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON

 

 

HOW MANY YOU GIVE, I GUESS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DERIVED ANY PARTICULAR INCOME

 

 

REGARDING THE EVERGLADES FROM THESE HONORARIA

 

 

THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED IN SPEAKING ON EVERGLADES

 

 

ISSUES?

 

 

A. NO, NOT REALLY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THEN WE'LL WAIT FOR

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN, TO FINISH THAT LINE OF

 

 

QUESTIONING.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. YOU HAD INDICATED -- WE HAD NOT FINISHED GOING

 

 

THROUGH THE LIST, BUT YOU HAD INDICATED TO ME---

 

 

A. ARE YOU FINISHED OFF THIS, NOW?

 

 

Q. NO, I'M NOT. THE LIST, I'M NOT FINISHED WITH.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 297

 

 

 

 

A. NO, NO. I MEAN, DO YOU WANT ME TO CLOSE THIS UP,

 

 

NOW?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR. I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT WITH

 

 

SOME OTHER QUESTIONS.

 

 

A. WELL, LET ME SET THAT OVER HERE FOR NOW.

 

 

Q. YES, SIR. LET ME ASK YOU JUST ONE QUESTION. WHAT

 

 

FRACTION OF YOUR DUKE SALARY IS RECHARGED BACK TO

 

 

THAT GRANT? CAN YOU ANSWER THAT?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. AS I SAID, IT VARIES FROM SEMESTER

 

 

TO SEMESTER.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. ON A YEARLY BASIS, I DON'T KNOW. ON A SEMESTER

 

 

BASIS, ACADEMIC SEMESTER BASIS, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD

 

 

BE A SMALL PERCENTAGE, IF ANYTHING. I'M NOT SURE

 

 

BECAUSE IT VARIES.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. I THINK WE WERE GOING THROUGH THE

 

 

EXPERT WITNESSES, WHY DON'T WE RETURN TO THAT.

 

 

WE WERE AT DR. RADER. DR. RECKHOW IS ON YOUR DUKE

 

 

WETLAND CENTER. WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP OF

DR. RECKHOW TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER?

 

 

A. HE'S A PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT,

 

 

AND HE IS A PARTICIPANT IN THE DUKE WETLAND

 

 

CENTER.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. RECKHOW?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 298

 

 

 

 

A. YES, I DID.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND YOU RECOMMENDED HIM FOR WHAT?

 

 

A. I RECOMMENDED HIM AS A STATISTICAL CONSULTANT, A

 

 

PERSON WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH PHOSPHORUS ISSUES,

 

 

WATER QUALITY ISSUES, BAYESIAN STATISTICS,

 

 

PROBABILITY ANALYSIS, AND UNCERTAINTY.

 

 

Q. WHAT TYPE OF WORK DOES DR. RECKHOW DO WITH THE

 

 

DUKE WETLAND CENTER?

 

 

A. HE TEACHES COURSES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO STUDENTS

 

 

IN THE WETLAND CENTER AND IN THE SCHOOL. HE ACTS

 

 

ON COMMITTEES; HE CO-ADVISES STUDENTS IN THE

 

 

CENTER; HE WORKS ON GRANTS THROUGH THE CENTER; HE

 

 

HELPS WRITE PROPOSALS FOR THE CENTER; AND WE WORK

 

 

ON JOINT PROJECTS TOGETHER.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. RECKHOW TO THE

 

 

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. IT PROBABLY WAS IN '89,

 

 

MAYBE.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE BECAME RETAINED AT THAT TIME BY

 

 

A. THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, OR SOMEWHERE IN

 

 

THAT TIME FRAME, '89, '90?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE HE WAS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND HAS REMAINED RETAINED BY THEM SINCE

 

 

THEN, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 299

 

 

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE ONCE HE BECAME,' RETAINED AS A

 

 

CONSULTANT, THEN WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS

 

 

THAT IN TERMS OF THAT. HE SIMPLY REFUSED TO

 

 

DISCUSS THAT COMPONENT OF IT.

 

 

Q. WAS THAT BY INSTRUCTIONS FROM YOUR ATTORNEYS?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW. HE SIMPLY SAID THAT HE WAS -- HE

 

 

WAS WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, I BELIEVE---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND SO HE BASICALLY -- I MEAN, WE HAVE MANY

 

 

CONVERSATIONS ON MANY THINGS. OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE

 

 

LUNCH TOGETHER QUITE OFTEN, BUT WHEN IT---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- ANY OF THAT PART OF IT, IT WAS SORT OF A

 

 

PROFESSIONAL AGREEMENT THAT WE SIMPLY WOULDN'T

 

 

DISCUSS THAT.

 

 

Q. BUT WHY? I MEAN, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU'RE CONCERNED

 

 

ABOUT SCIENTIFIC ISSUES WITHIN A MASSIVE ECOSYSTEM

 

 

UNDER STRESS, IT WOULD BE A NATURAL TOPIC OF

 

 

DISCUSSION.

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU MAY ANSWER,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOUR QUESTION IS. DID WE

 

 

DISCUSS---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 300

 

 

 

 

Q. YEAH, WHY AREN'T YOU DISCUSSING A VERY NATURAL

 

 

TOPIC OF DISCUSSION AT LUNCH?

 

 

A. WELL, ONE, I'M NOT WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, AND

 

 

THAT'S WHAT HE WAS WORKING PRIMARILY ON, SO I -- I

 

 

MEAN---

 

 

Q. BUT NOW HE'S WORKING ON THE EVERGLADES, ISN'T HE,

 

 

SINCE 189, 190?

 

 

A. NOT -- AS FAR AS I KNOW, HE'S NOT WORKING ON THE

 

 

EVERGLADES SINCE 189 OR 190. THAT IS NOT MY

 

 

UNDER---

 

 

Q. HE'S ONLY WORKING WITH NUMBERS, CRUNCHING NUMBERS?

 

 

A. WELL, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING HE HAS NOT BEEN

 

 

WORKING THE EVERGLADES NUMBERS SINCE '89 OR '90.

 

 

Q. OH, WHAT DID HE DO IN THE BEGINNING, 189, 190?

 

 

A. HE WAS WORKING ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE.

 

 

Q. OH, WHEN THEY RETAINED HIM, IT WAS---

 

 

A. YES, HE---

 

 

Q. --- FOR LAKE OKEECHOBEE AND NOT---

 

 

A. --- HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EVERGLADES, RIGHT.

 

 

HE WORKING ON -- I RECOMMENDED HIM FOR LAKE

 

 

OKEECHOBEE PROBLEMS---

 

 

Q. I SEE.

 

 

A. --- CAUSE HE'S A LAKE PERSON; HE WORKS A LOT WITH

 

 

LAKE AND, YOU KNOW---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 301

 

 

 

 

Q. IS HE A LIMNOLOGIST?

 

 

A. HE'S A WATER -- HE'S AN ENGINEER BY TRAINING, A

 

 

STATISTICIAN, AND HE DEALS A LOT WITH WATER

 

 

QUALITY. HE'S WRITTEN SOME OF THE BOOKS -- THE

 

 

TEXTBOOKS THAT THEY USE ON THAT.

 

 

Q. WHEN DID HE BEGIN WORKING ON EVERGLADES RELATED

 

 

PROBLEMS, AS YOU YOU ARE DISASSOCIATING THE

 

 

LAKE FROM IT, BUT I'M USING YOUR----

 

 

A. RIGHT.

 

 

Q. --- DISTINCTION, NOT MINE.

 

 

A. RIGHT. WELL, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. WHEN DID

 

 

HE---

 

 

Q. WHEN DID HE BEGIN TO WORK ON WHAT YOU CONSIDER

 

 

EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES?

 

 

A. THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY IN 192.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND HIM ALSO TO THE

 

 

COOPERATIVE?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. AND HE WOULD HAVE BEEN RETAINED BY THEM IN '92, TO

 

 

THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

 

 

A. THAT WOULD BE CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. FOR SIMILAR PURPOSES?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE. WELL, IN GENERAL TERMS, YES. I'm

 

 

NOT SURE WHAT ARRANGEMENTS THEY HAVE MADE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 302

 

 

 

 

Q. IN 192, FROM THE TIME HE'S BEEN WORKING ON MORE

 

 

EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES, YOU STILL DO NOT HAVE

 

 

THESE CONVERSATIONS, IS THAT RIGHT?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION?

 

 

I THINK---

 

 

A. DO WE HAVE WHAT CONVERSATIONS?

 

 

Q. THE CONVERSATIONS AT LUNCH REGARDING WHAT'S GOING

 

 

ON WITH THE EVERGLADES RELATED ISSUES?

 

 

A. OH, WE HAVE SOME GENERAL -- WE HAVE -DOME GENERAL

 

 

CONVERSATIONS, BUT NOTHING OF SPECIFICS.

 

 

Q. DOES HE EVER DO STATISTICS ON YOUR DATA?

 

 

A. ON MY DATA -- HE HAS SEEN SOME OF MY DATA. AS

 

 

FAR AS I KNOW -- I'M NOT SURE IF HE IS DOING THE

 

 

STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ON MY DATA OR NOT AT THE

 

 

MOMENT.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW IF HE'S DOING THE STATISTICAL---

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. --- ANALYSIS ON YOUR DATA?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. IS THIS PART OF THIS ONGOING JUST DICHOTOMY

 

 

BETWEEN---

 

 

A. NO, I'M NOT -- I JUST DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I DON'T

 

 

KNOW IF HE HAS BEEN ASKED TO DO -- WHAT TO DO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 303

 

 

 

 

RELATED TO THAT. HE'S BEEN ASKED SOME ASPECTS OF

 

 

IT, BUT -- AND, ALSO, HE'S EXTREMELY BUSY, SO I

 

 

KNOW HE'S BEEN WORKING ON A NUMBER OF OTHER

 

 

THINGS, SO HE HASN'T---

 

 

Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DOCTOR -- NOT DOCTOR,

 

 

MR. WALLER---

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. --- HE'S ON PAGE 11?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OR DR. HACKNEY?

 

 

A. I MAY HAVE RECOMMENDED -- AND I'M VAGUE ON THIS

 

 

AS -- DR. HACKNEY A LONG TIME AGO. BUT, YOU KNOW,

 

 

AS I SAID BEFORE, I SOMETIMES PRODUCED LISTS OF

 

 

PEOPLE IN CERTAIN AREAS, YOU KNOW, WETLANDS

 

 

ECOLOGY. I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

Q. HE WAS AT THAT ONE PARTICULAR MEETING, WASN'T HE,

 

 

WHERE YOU NAMED THE PEOPLE PRE-SAGE?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID HE ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS -- OH, HE HAD

 

 

LEFT BY THE TIME YOU GAVE YOUR PRESENTATION?

 

 

A. HE HAD LEFT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. COLLINS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DO YOU WORK WITH DR. HACKNEY ON ANY OF HIS ISSUES?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 304

 

 

 

 

A. WHAT ISSUES ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

 

 

Q. WELL, THE ONES THAT ARE LISTED, OR ANY OTHER

 

 

ISSUES REGARDED TO EVERGLADES.

 

 

A. NO. I HAVE WORKED ON COMMITTEES WITH DR. HACKNEY

 

 

IN ACADEMIC MATTERS, BUT I HAVE NOT WORKED WITH

 

 

HIM ON THE EVERGLADES ISSUES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. COLLINS'?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND MR. STRICKER?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. HILL?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. JONES, LIMNOLO(;IST?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. MANGARELLA?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. SMART?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. PRATT?

 

 

MR. GREEN: I'M SORRY, WHICH NAME

 

 

DID YOU READ?

MR. BURGESS: PRATT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: PRATT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: PRATT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 305

 

 

MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.

A. NO.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU RECOMMEND MR. ARMSTRONG?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. HORNE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. LETTENMAIER?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. MILLARD?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. LOFTUS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. EXUM -- WORKS WITH DR. HACKNEY?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. DZURIK?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. MR. BRAUER?

 

 

A. ARE YOU SAYING DONALD BRAUER?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. LEFOHN?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. MR. KRUPA?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 306

 

 

 

 

Q. DR. MEDINA?

 

 

A. I MAY HAVE MENTIONED HIS NAME TO THEM.

 

 

Q. OKAY. FOR WHAT PURPOSES DID YOU POTENTIALLY OR

 

 

POSSIBLY RECOMMEND DR. MEDINA?

 

 

A. IF -- AS I -- WE MAY HAVE HAD SOME CONVERSATIONS,

 

 

I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY. HIS NAME HAD BEEN

 

 

MENTIONED A NUMBER OF TIMES. IT WOULD BE RELATED

 

 

TO HYDROLOGY; HYDROLOGY MODELING---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES). WHEN?

 

 

A. --- PRIMARILY.

 

 

Q. WHEN DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED?

 

 

A. HIS NAME HAS BEEN BATTED AROUND FOR SEVERAL YEARS,

 

 

SO I CAN'T GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC DATE, BUT IT MAY

 

 

HAVE BEEN DONE, YOU KNOW, 191 SOMEWHERE---

 

 

Q. 1190, AS EARLY AS 190 POSSIBLY?

 

 

A. POSSIBLY---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- BUT I AM NOT SURE OF THAT.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. MR. STEWART?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. DUNCKELMAN?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. YOU HAVE WORKED WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN, THOUGH, BACK

 

 

AND FORTH ON CERTAIN ISSUES REGARDED TO THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 307

 

 

 

 

EVERGLADES, HAVE YOU NOT?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU HAD CORRESPONDENCE WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN?

 

 

A. HE HAS OCCASIONALLY SENT ME A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING

 

 

OR AN ARTICLE. I'VE HAD NO SCIENTIFIC

 

 

INTERACTIONS WITH DR. DUNCKELMAN, OTHER THAN HIM

 

 

OCCASIONALLY ATTENDING A MEETING. HE MAY HAVE

 

 

BEEN IN AN EQC MEETING ONE TIME OR TWO. I CANFT

 

 

REMEMBER. I'VE HAD VIRTUALLY NO CONTACT WITH

 

 

HIM.

 

 

Q. WOULD YOU BE IN THE ROOM AT THE SAME TIME AS

 

 

DR. DUNCKELMAN, OR WOULD YOU BE WAITING IN THE

 

 

HALL?

 

 

A. IT'S HARD TO SAY. I THINK SOMETIMES OBVIOUSLY HE

 

 

WAS IN THE ROOM, AND HE MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE

 

 

HALLWAY. I DON'T REMEMBER WHO WAS PUT INTO

 

 

PURGATORY.

 

 

Q. WHERE ARE THESE MEETINGS HELD GENERAIJLY?

 

 

THEY'RE AT VARIOUS PLACES. THEY COULD BE AT A

 

 

HOTEL, OR THEY COULD BE AT FLO SUN, OR THEY COULD

 

 

BE A CLEWISTON, IT JUST DEPENDS.

Q. WHEN YOU MEET IN CLEWISTON, WHERE DO YOU MEET?

 

 

A. THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.

 

 

Q. OH, IN THEIR OFFICES?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 308

 

 

 

 

A. THEIR OFFICES. WE STAND IN THEIR HALLWAYS.

 

 

Q. DOES FLO SUN HAVE NICE HALLWAYS?

 

 

A. THEYFRE DARK.

 

 

Q. MR. JENNINGS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. MR. OWENS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. MR. MYHRE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. ANDERSON?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. STURM?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. I'D LIKE TO MOVE TO THE COOPERATIVE'S LIST. SOME

 

 

OF IT OVERLAPS, BUT---

 

 

A. WHERE ARE WE ON THE -- GOING TO BE AT?

 

 

Q. PETITIONERS' WITNESS LIST. THIS IS -- I DONFT

 

 

KNOW MR. GREEN'S BOOK.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I THINK IT'S NUMBER ONE.

 

 

MR. GREEN: THE PRECEDING TAB.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: MAYBE I SHOULD LOOK AT IT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: YOU'RE WELCOME TO.

 

 

A. OKAY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 309

 

 

 

 

A. IT SAYS "FACT WITNESS" AT THE TOP?

 

 

Q. I ASSUME YOU---

 

 

A. NO, NO.

 

 

Q. --- DID NOT RECOMMEND MYSELF OR OTHERS. DID YOU

 

 

RECOMMEND MR. COLE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. MR. HORVATH?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. MR. MESSIMER?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. HOW ABOUT MR. GHERINI -- IS IT DR. GHERINI? I

 

 

DON'T KNOW. THESE DON'T SEEM TO HAVE -- NO, IT

 

 

DOESN'T HAVE Ph.D. BEHIND IT. MR. GHERINI?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. HAITH?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DID YOU MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE COOPERATIVE?

 

 

I THINK YOU SAID YOU DID, DIDN'T YOU?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, I HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE LIST.

 

 

DR. HERBERT?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. LUKE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 310

 

 

Q. DR. LEISTRITZ?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEEM TO BE ON

 

 

THIS LIST, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. THERE MAY BE SOME. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY,

 

 

OFFHAND, TILL WE GO THROUGH THE LIST, I WON'T---

 

 

Q. OKAY. DR. McCLAVE?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DR. POLLMAN?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. DO YOU WORK WITH DR. POLLMAN?

 

 

A. OCCASIONALLY.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU WORKED ON ANY MERCURY ISSUES WITH

 

 

DR. POLLMAN?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DR. RECKHOW, WE KNOW YOU'VE WORKED WITH.

 

 

THERE'S A SUPPLEMENTAL LIST---

 

 

A. I DIDN'T RECOMMEND MYSELF EITHER.

 

 

Q. I THINK WE'VE COVERED THAT ONE. I THINK THAT'S

 

 

WELL, WAIT A SECOND. SINCE THIS CASE GOES ON

 

 

FOREVER, I THINK THAT'S ALL. WERE THERE OTHER

 

 

PEOPLE YOU RECOMMENDED, DR. RICHARDSON, TO THE

 

 

COOPERATIVE?

 

 

A. I DON'T REMEMBER. I'M TRYING TO THINK. THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 311

 

 

 

 

DIFFICULTY THERE IS THE FACT THAT ORIGINALLY

 

 

GEORGE WEDGWORTH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE HEAD OF THE

 

 

SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND SO I WOULD HAVE RECOMMENDED

 

 

SOME PEOPLE WHEN -- IN HIS CAPACITY WITH THE

 

 

LEAGUE---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE. AND ALSO ED BARBER

 

 

WAS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND AS YOU KNOW,

 

 

THEY'RE NOW PART OF THE COOPERATIVE. AT LEAST

 

 

GEORGE IS, AND ED WORKS -- OR HAD WORKED FOR A

 

 

PERIOD OF TIME -- HE MAY STILL BE, I DON'T KNOW --

 

 

AS A CONSULTANT TO THE CO-OP. AND SO IT'S HARD TO

 

 

SAY, YOU KNOW, IF THEY DID OR DIDN'T CONSIDER

 

 

SOMEBODY UNDER ONE OF THOSE.

 

 

Q. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE

 

 

YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS ENDED UP?

 

 

A. NO. I RECOMMENDED SOME PEOPLE, AS I SAID BEFORE,

 

 

AND WHETHER THEY TOOK THEM OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

Q. SURE. HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED, AS PART OF YOUR

 

 

CONSULTANT WORK ON BEHALF OF THE COOPERATIVE

 

 

AND/OR THE LEAGUE TO REVIEW THE WORK OF FEDERAL

 

 

EXPERTS?

 

 

A. I THINK I'VE HAD SOME REQUESTS TO DO SOME OF THAT,

 

 

YES.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 312

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHICH FEDERAL EXPERTS HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED

 

 

TO REVIEW WORK?

 

 

A. I RECEIVED SO MANY DOCUMENTS I'M TRYING TO THINK

 

 

OF WHICH ONES. YOU KNOW, JUST GIVE ME A MOMENT

 

 

HERE. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE THAT I'VE BEEN

 

 

ASKED TO DO, I THINK, AND I CAN'T SAY THE

 

 

MAJORITY, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE LISTED

 

 

AS FEDERAL EXPERTS OR WITNESSES, OR WHATEVER,

 

 

BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME, WITH THE

 

 

EXCEPTIONS OF ONE OR TWO, WHO THEY WERE. THEY

 

 

WERE JUST DOCUMENTS. I HAVE NOT HAD THE TIME TO

 

 

REVIEW VERY MANY DOCUMENTS. THE MAIN ONE THAT I

 

 

THINK I HAVE REVIEWED, IN TERMS OF EXPERT -- THAT

 

 

I UNDERSTAND NOW IS AN EXPERT WITNESS -- IS ONE

 

 

COMPONENT OF DR. WALKERIS.

 

 

Q. WHAT COMPONENT WAS THAT?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE IT WAS AN EARLY COMPONENT WHERE HE WAS

 

 

LOOKING AT WATER QUALITY INPUTS TO THE EVERGLADES

 

 

NATIONAL PARK.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE CRITICISM OF THAT WORK?

 

 

A. IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I LOOKED AT THAT. YES, I

 

 

DID GO THROUGH THAT AND LOOK AT THAT PARTICULAR

 

 

DOCUMENT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAD CRITICISMS OF IT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 313

 

 

 

 

A. YES, I HAD SOME, FROM AN ECOLOGIST'S POINT OF

 

 

VIEW, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT AT TRIAL YOU MIGHT

 

 

BE CALLED TO REBUT OR CRITIQUE THOSE -- THAT WORK

 

 

OF WALKER AND/OR OTHER FEDERAL EXPERTS OR STATE

 

 

EXPERTS, FOR THAT MATTER?

 

 

A. WELL---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: LET ME OBJECT TO

 

 

THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. YOU'LL HAVE TO BREAK IT DOWN, BECAUSE YOU'VE

 

 

GOT---

 

 

Q. FEDERAL AND STATE, IS THAT THE PART THAT CONFUSED

 

 

YOU?

 

 

A. WELL, FEDERAL AND STATE AND OTHER, AND I MEAN

 

 

WHICH -- I'M NOT SURE---

 

 

Q. WELL, I WANT TO KNOW---

 

 

A. --- JUST START OUT ONE AT A TIME OR PIECE---

 

 

Q. --- IS PART OF YOUR CONSULTING EFFORT TO REVIEW,

 

 

CRITIQUE, AND POTENTIALLY TESTIFY ABOUT THE WORK

 

 

OF FEDERAL EXPERTS, LET'S SAY, FIRST?

 

 

A. THE MAJORITY OF IT IN THE BEGINNING HAS NOT BEEN

 

 

TO DO THAT. I HAVE BEEN DOING OTHER THINGS. IN

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 314

 

 

 

 

MORE RECENT TIMES, I MAY BE ASKED TO DO SOME OF

 

 

THAT. AS I SAID, I HAVE ONLY REVIEWED SEVERAL

 

 

DOCUMENTS IN THAT LIGHT. AND I THINK WALKERFS MAY

 

 

BE THE ONLY ONE -- THAT DOCUMENT MAY BE THE ONLY

 

 

ONE, TO MY RECOLLECTION, THAT I HAVE REVIEWED IN

 

 

THAT LIGHT. I HAVE NOT BEEN ASKED TO REVIEW OTHER

 

 

DOCUMENTS FOR THAT, THAT I KNOW, FOR THE FEDERAL.

 

 

OKAY.

 

 

Q. BUT THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS, YES, AS TO

 

 

DR. WALKERIS, YOU MIGHT BE CALLED IN THAT

 

 

CAPACITY?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE I -- I'M NOT SURE I'M GOING TO BE

 

 

CALLED IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE. IT'S NOT---

 

 

Q. HOW ABOUT---

 

 

A. --- I THINK THEY MAY HAVE OTHER PEOPLE DOING THAT;

 

 

I THINK THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING NOW, THAT I MAY

 

 

NOT BE CALLED TO DO THAT.

 

 

Q. WOULD DR. DAVIS BE DOING THAT?

 

 

A. I HAVE NO IDEA.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IT WOULD BE?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WOULD BE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IT WOULDN'T BE DR. RECKHOW?

 

 

A. I HAVE NO IDEA. I REALLY DON'T.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT DR. JONES, DR. KADLEC,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 31S

 

 

 

 

MR. DOREN, HAVE YOU REVIEWED THEIR WORK?

 

 

A. DR. KADLEC; DOCTOR, WHO?

 

 

Q. JONES.

 

 

A. JONES.

 

 

Q. MR. DOREN.

 

 

A. MR. DOREN. MR. DOREN, NO; I'M TRYING TO THINK OF

 

 

WHO MR. DOREN IS, BUT.

 

 

Q. AT THE PARK, AT THE RESEARCH CENTER.

 

 

A. BUT I'M NOT SURE WHICH DOCUMENT. I DON'T BELIEVE

 

 

I'VE REVIEWED ANY OF HIS DOCUMENTS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I MEAN, I CAN'T SAY I HAVEN'T PICKED IT UP AND

 

 

LOOKED AT THE COVER, BUT I HAVE NOT---

 

 

Q. YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT IT WASN'T SENT TO YOU AND

 

 

THAT IT WASN'T PRODUCED BACK TO THE FEDERAL

 

 

GOVERNMENT; YOU'RE JUST SAYING YOU HAVE NO

 

 

RECOLLECTION, AS YOU SIT HERE, HAVING REVIEWED

 

 

IT?

 

 

A. BACK TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. YOU MEAN BACK

 

 

TO---

 

 

Q. I WAS PRODUCED A NUMBER OF MY OWN DOCUMENTS---

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. --- BACK, DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

A. YES, I WAS SENT A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF THOSE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 316

 

 

 

 

DOCUMENTS, I REALIZE THAT.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. RIGHT.

 

 

A. AND THEY WERE IN MY FILES, AND I---

 

 

Q. AND I GOT THEM BACK.

 

 

A. YES, I REALIZE THAT.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: BECAUSE YOU ASKED

 

 

FOR THEM.

 

 

A. YOU WANTED---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I ONLY GET WHAT I ASK

 

 

FOR. I UNDERSTAND, MR. BURGESS.

 

 

A. --- AND I'M TELLING YOU THAT FOR THE LARGE MAJORITY

 

 

OF THAT INFORMATION, I DIDN'T REVIEW THOSE

 

 

DOCUMENTS FOR EXPERT TESTIMONY. I HAVE NOT --

 

 

MOST OF THAT WAS FOR MY INFORMATION. THAT'S WHAT

 

 

I WAS SENT SO THAT I COULD KEEP UP WITH WHAT WAS

 

 

GOING ON. ALSO, THOSE DOCUMENTS CONTAIN IMPORTANT

 

 

INFORMATION THAT GIVE ME INSIGHTS AS TO HOW THE

 

 

EVERGLADES WORKS; SOME DO, SOME DON'T. SOME ARE

 

 

TRASH, AND SOME ARE QUITE GOOD.

 

 

Q. SURE. SURE. BUT YOU---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: BUT---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YES.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: --- LET ME JUST STATE

 

 

FOR THE RECORD THAT ON BEHALF OF THE LEAGUE,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 317

 

 

 

 

WE HAVE NO INTENTION, AT THIS POINT IN TIME,

 

 

IN REQUESTING DR. RICHARDSON TO TESTIFY

 

 

CONCERNING THE EARLY COMPONENT OF

 

 

DR. WALKER'S WORK THAT HE REVIEWED WITH

 

 

RESPECT TO EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. AND

 

 

THAT'S THE REASON THAT THE DOCUMENT IS ON

 

 

OUR PRIVILEGED LIST.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, WITH THE "AT THIS

 

 

TIME" AND THE "EARLY COMPONENT" LIMITATIONS,

 

 

I'M NOT SURE I GOT MUCH OUT OF THAT ONE, BUT

 

 

I APPRECIATE YOUR INFORMING ME.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL REVIEWING ANY

 

 

OTHER FEDERAL EXPERTS' WORK, EITHER FOR PURPOSES

 

 

OF YOUR OWN INFORMATION ABOUT THE EVERGLADES, OR

 

 

ON A CONSULTANT BASIS?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I'M JUST GOING TO

 

 

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, I'M

 

 

SORRY, FROM THE STANDPOINT OF OTHER

 

 

CONSULTANTS' WORK. I DON'T UNDERSTAND

 

 

WHETHER YOU ARE REFERRING TO SOMETHING THAT

 

 

I GAVE THEM, SOMETHING THAT YOU GAVE THEM,

 

 

SOMETHING THAT'S AVAILABLE PUBLICLY. THEIR

 

 

PUBLICATIONS IN THEIR RESUME, OR SPECIFIC

 

 

ITEMS. AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE MIGHT BE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 318

 

 

 

 

CONFUSED BY THAT. I CERTAINLY KNOW WITH

 

 

RESPECT TO THE NAMES THAT YOU AIJREADY GAVE,

 

 

THAT HE'S READ THINGS THAT -- THAT THEY MAY

 

 

HAVE PUBLISHED. BUT WHEN YOU REFER TO OTHER

 

 

ASPECTS OF THEIR WORK, I'M NOT CLEAR ON WHAT

 

 

YOU MEAN. THANK YOU.

 

 

WITNESS: SO, WHERE ARE WE, I'M SORRY?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I ASSUME YOU'RE NOT CLEAR,

 

 

EITHER?

 

 

A. WELL, IF YOU ASK ME SPECIFICALLY REALLY TO WHO, I

 

 

MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO BETTER ON THAT, BUT GO AHEAD,

 

 

GIVE ME---

 

 

Q. DO YOU WANT ME TO GO THROUGH THE LIST OF FEDERAL

 

 

EXPERTS? I WAS TRYING TO AVOID THAT,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

A. WELL, I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT EITHER, BUT YOU MUST

 

 

HAVE ONE, OR TWO, OR SOME PEOPLE IN MIND. I MEAN,

 

 

I'VE TOLD YOU, BY AND LARGE, I HAVE NOT REVIEWED

 

 

FORMALLY -- I BELIEVE I SAID THE ONLY FEDERAL

 

 

EXPERT THAT I REVIEWED A DOCUMENT, WHICH I, TO MY

 

 

KNOWLEDGE, AM NOT GOING TO BE TESTIFYING TO, WAS

 

 

DR. WALKER.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT WERE YOUR COMMENTS CONCERNING

 

 

HIS WORK ON THE S-12'S?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 319

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I'M GOING TO

 

 

INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER AT THAT POINT.

 

 

AT THIS POINT, THE DOCUMENTS ARE ON OUR

 

 

PRIVILEGE LIST. WE HAVE NO INTENTION OF

 

 

ASKING DR. RICHARDSON ANY QUESTIONS AS AN

 

 

EXPERT AT THE TIME OF TRIAL, AND -- ON THAT

 

 

AREA OF WORK, AND THUS THE DOCUMENT DOESNFT

 

 

CONSTITUTE A DOCUMENT THAT HE HAS REVIEWED OR

 

 

RELIED UPON IN EXPRESSING OPINIONS.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, WILL YOUR TESTIMONY AT TRIAL BE

 

 

THE SAME AS YOU HAVE WRITTEN ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS

 

 

THAT EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK HAS AND IS RECEIVING

 

 

HIGH QUALITY WATER?

 

 

A. UNLESS I RECEIVE NEW INFORMATION TO THE CONTRARY.

 

 

SINCE I HAVEN'T HAD ACCESS TO THE PARK, I CAN'T

 

 

SAY WHAT'S INSIDE THE PARK, I CAN ONLY SAY WHAT

 

 

I'VE ANALYZED AND WHAT I'VE LOOKED AT. SO, I

 

 

DON'T SEE ANY MAJOR CHANGES.

 

 

Q. SO, YES, YOU WOULD -- THE ANSWER IS, YES, YOU

 

 

ANTICIPATE THAT YOU WOULD GIVE THAT TESTIMONY?

 

 

A. I ANTICIPATE THAT I WOULD GIVE THAT TESTIMONY ON

 

 

THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I THINK,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 320

 

 

 

 

MR. BURGESS, GIVEN THAT THAT IS THE

 

 

FUNDAMENTAL PIECE OF HIS TESTIMONY, AND

 

 

CERTAINLY A CRITICAL ELEMENT, I THINK HIS

 

 

OPINION OF DR. WALKER'S S-12 WATER QUALITY

 

 

WORK WOULD BE VERY RELEVANT.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WELL, I DISAGREE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU'RE INSTRUCTING

 

 

HIM NOT TO ANSWER?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WITH RESPECT TO WHAT HIS

 

 

CRITICISMS WERE THAT WERE -- MAY HAVE BEEN

 

 

CONCERNING THAT DOCUMENT, WHICH WAS GIVEN TO

 

 

HIM BY COUNSEL AND REQUESTED FOR REVIEW, YES,

 

 

THAT'S MY WORK PRODUCT. AND UNTIL -- REALLY

 

 

NOT UNTIL, BUT UNLESS I WERE TO TELL YOU THAT

 

 

HE WERE TO TESTIFY CONCERNING HIS REVIEW OF

 

 

DR. WALKER'S PAPER, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT

 

 

YOU'RE ENTITLED TO DISCOVER IT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I WOULD ASK YOU TO

 

 

THINK THAT ONE OVER LIKE YOU DID THE OTHER

 

 

ONE, CAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK THAT'S

 

 

APPROPRIATE.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I'LL DO THAT.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) RETURNING TO THE FUNCTIONS THAT

 

 

YOU HAVE PROVIDED AS A CONSULTANT, YOU SAID YOU'VE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 321

 

 

 

 

REVIEWED DOCUMENTS; YOU'VE MADE EXPERT

 

 

RECOMMENDATIONS; WEFVE REALLY GONE THROUGH THAT

 

 

AT LENGTH. YOU'VE REPORTED ON YOUR WORK IN THE

 

 

FIELD, AND YOU HAVE REVIEWED OTHER WORK IN THE

FIELD, INCLUDING THE ENTRY TO THE PARK AND THE

 

 

REFUGE BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. WHAT

 

 

OTHER WORK IN THE FIELD, OTHER THAN THAT ENTRY

 

 

INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE, HAVE YOU REVIEWED,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. WHAT WORK IN THE FIELD?

 

 

Q. WHAT OTHER FIELDWORK FOR OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE

 

 

LEAGUE AND/OR THE COOPERATIVE HAVE YOU REVIEWED?

 

 

A. WHAT OTHER FIELDWORK, OKAY.

 

 

Q. OTHER THAN THE ENTRY TO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE,

 

 

WHICH YOU'VE CONCEDED THAT YOU HAVE---

 

 

A. RIGHT. YOU'RE NOT ASKING IF I'VE DONE FIELD

 

 

RESEARCH, YOU'RE ASKING ME WHAT FIELDWORK---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- THAT I HAVE REVIEWED?

 

 

Q. RIGHT. HAVE YOU DONE ADDITIONAL FIELDWORK FOR THE

 

 

LEAGUE?

 

 

A. NO, I HAVE NOT.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 322

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CLARIFY.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. RIGHT.

 

 

A. I HAVE REVIEWED AND LOOKED AT, IN A CURSORY WAY --

 

 

IN OTHER WORDS, I HAVE NOT WRITTEN A FORMAL

 

 

REPORT, BUT I HAVE DISCUSSED THIS IN SEVERAL

 

 

MEETINGS -- THE INFORMATION IN THE ENR WORKSHOP.

 

 

SOME DOCUMENTS RELATED TO, I THINK, CLARIFICATION

 

 

OF LOTS. IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE

 

 

TO NAME THE NUMBER OF QUESTIONS THAT -- THROUGH

 

 

TWO OR THREE YEARS WOULD COME UP RELATED TO A

 

 

NUMBER OF ISSUES. I HAVE REVIEWED DR. KADLECIS

 

 

AND NEWMAN'S REPORT -- AT LEAST REVIEWED IT IN

 

 

TERMS OF LOOKING AT IT -- AND MADE SOME VERBAL

 

 

COMMENTS; HAD DISCUSSIONS ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS

 

 

RELATED TO THAT WORK. THE NOLTE REPORT, I HAVE

 

 

LOOKED AT THAT REPORT, AND DISCUSSED THAT REPORT.

 

 

NUMEROUS PAPERS, PUBLISHED PAPERS, THINGS LIKE

 

 

THAT, OCCASIONALLY, AND BRING UP TOPICS RELATED TO

THAT.

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T RECALL THE NAMES OF THESE VARIOUS

 

 

PAPERS?

 

 

A. NO. IT'D HAVE TO HAVE BEEN -- YOU KNOW, NO, I

 

 

DON'T. SOME OF THEM WOULD BE IN THE BACK OF MY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 323

 

 

 

 

ANNUAL REPORT, THAT WOULD BRING UP CONCEPTS OR

 

 

RELATIONSHIPS TO CATTAIL, OR TO SAWGRASS, OR SOME

 

 

ASPECT OF WATER QUALITY.

 

 

Q. THEY WOULD FIRST BE PROVIDED TO YOU, THOUGH, BY

 

 

THE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. NO. I WOULD BE THE ONE PROVIDING THEM.

 

 

Q. OH, YOU WOULD PROVIDE THEM, AND THEN YOU WOULD

 

 

PASS THEM ON TO THE LEAGUE, HERE'S SOMETHING THAT

 

 

MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU?

 

 

A. I SAID, THIS MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU, YOU

 

 

MIGHT WANT TO LOOK AT THIS, THIS MIGHT BE

 

 

IMPORTANT, TAKE A LOOK AT THIS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- THIS IS AN AREA THAT MAY NEED FURTHER ANALYSIS.

 

 

Q. IS THAT PRETTY MUCH IT?

 

 

A. IN TERMS OF REVIEWING OTHER PEOPLE'S FIELDWORK,

 

 

THAT'S TRUE. I THINK I'VE LOOKED AT -- I'VE

 

 

LOOKED AT SOME OF THE PARK DOCUMENTS RELATING TO

 

 

THE DOSING STUDY. THOSE THINGS HAVE BEEN

 

 

DISCUSSED, THEIR DOSING STUDY. SOME OF THE DATA

 

 

THAT'S BEEN MADE AVAILABLE FROM THE PARK, THAT'S

 

 

BEEN LOOKED AT. AGAIN, I'VE NOT WRITTEN ANY

 

 

FORMAL REPORTS ON THAT. I MAY HAVE MADE A FEW

 

 

NOTES, I CAN'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 324

 

 

 

 

Q. THOSE WERE PROVIDED TO YOU BY THE LEAGUE OR THE

 

 

ATTORNEYS?

 

 

A. SOMEONE. I THINK PROBABLY MOST OF THESE

 

 

DOCUMENTS, I THINK YOU'LL FIND, CAME FROM PEEPLES,

 

 

EARL AND BLANK. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THAT.

 

 

CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS SEND ME DOCUMENTS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- THE GOVERNMENT SENDS ME DOCUMENTS.

 

 

Q. BUT THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T SEND YOU THE DOSING

 

 

STUDY DOCUMENTS?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I GUESS FOR THE

 

 

RECORD, MR. BURGESS, I'D LIKE TO CERTIFY

 

 

THOSE QUESTIONS THAT YOU'VE INSTRUCTED HIM

 

 

NOT TO ANSWER, AND I WILL CHOOSE:---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: THE ONLY QUESTION THAT I

 

 

INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER -- SO, THAT

 

 

WE'RE CLEAR FOR THE RECORD -- IS TO DISCUSS

 

 

THE CRITICISMS CONTAINED IN A WRITTEN REPORT

 

 

THAT HE DID, AT COUNSEL'S REQUEST, WITH

 

 

RESPECT TO WILLIAM WALKER'S EARLY DOCUMENT

 

 

ON THE PARK. THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION I'VE

 

 

INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO ANSWER.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, THEN, I- WILL RESERVE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 325

 

 

 

 

MY RIGHT TO CALL THAT UP, AND TO HAVE IT --

 

 

HAVE IT ANSWERED.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I UNDERSTAND.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I JUST WANT TO BE SURE

 

 

WE'RE CLEAR THAT I'VE ONLY INSTRUCTED HIM ON

 

 

THAT ONE QUESTION. HE TOLD YOU THAT HE

 

 

PERFORMED IT; HE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD SOME

 

 

CRITICISMS OF IT. I'M JUST ASKING HIM NOT

 

 

TO DISCUSS THE CRITICISMS OF IT, BECAUSE IT'S

 

 

MY WORK PRODUCT AT THE MOMENT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU DON'T THINK THE

 

 

IDENTITY OF THE OTHER WITNESS HE WAS

 

 

INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OH, I'M SORRY. THERE WERE

 

 

TWO QUESTIONS THIS MORNING. YES, THAT'S THE

 

 

OTHER ONE THAT I'VE INSTRUCTED HIM NOT TO

 

 

ANSWER. THE IDENTITY OF THE NON-TESTIFYING

 

 

WITNESS. THAT'S RIGHT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. WELL, I JUST

 

 

WANTED TO BE CLEAR---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: AND I DO, TOO. THANK YOU.

MS. PONZOLI: --- I'M NOT SAYING I HAVE A

 

 

PERFECT MEMORY, BUT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 326

 

 

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU REVIEW ANY PERIPHYTON

 

 

DOCUMENTS, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I MAY HAVE READ A FEW PAPERS RELATED TO

 

 

PERIPHYTON, YES. I DID NOT FORMALLY REVIEW THOSE.

 

 

SINCE PERIPHYTON IS NOT IN MY AREA OF EXPERTISE, I

 

 

TURNED THOSE OVER TO -- AS I'VE DONE FROM TIME TO

 

 

TIME WHEN WE WOULD GET INFORMATION THAT WAS

 

 

APPROPRIATE -- I WOULD TURN THEM OVER TO, IN THAT

 

 

CASE, DR. RADER AND DR. VYMAZAL.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, IF PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK SENT YOU

 

 

DOCUMENTS IN AN AREA THAT YOU FELT WAS MORE IN THE

 

 

EXPERTISE OF ANOTHER SCIENTIST, YOU WOULD HAVE

 

 

TURNED THEM OVER TO THAT PERSON?

 

 

A. OCCASIONALLY. IF IT WAS JUST -- IF IT WAS, LIKE,

 

 

PUBLISHED INFORMATION OR PAPERS WE DID NOT HAVE,

 

 

OR, IN SOME CASES, IF IT WAS RAW DATA, OR -- I

 

 

DON'T KNOW HOW RAW -- I DON'T BELIEVE I TURNED

 

 

OVER VERY MUCH RAW DATA. I DONFT -- SOME OF IT IS

 

 

PRETTY MUCH INDECIPHERABLE IN THE FORMS THAT

 

 

IT'S---

 

 

Q. SURE. SURE. WHAT TYPE OF RAW DATA HAVE YOU

 

 

RECEIVED FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK?

 

 

WELL, I THINK I HAVE RECEIVED -- AND YOU'VE GOTTEN

 

 

IT PRETTY MUCH IN YOUR FILE -- AND I CAN'T ATTEST

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 327

 

 

 

 

TO -- THAT A LOT OF IT, I'VE NEVER LOOKED AT,

 

 

OTHER THAN JUST A CURSORY LOOK AT IT TO DECIDE

 

 

THAT IT WOULD TAKE ME YEARS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT

 

 

THIS DATA WAS, AS YOU WILL FIND FROM MY DATA,

 

 

SINCE IT'S TAKEN ME YEARS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT

 

 

IS.

 

 

IT WOULD BE -- YOU KNOW, I THINK ON SEVERAL

 

 

OCCASIONS THERE WERE MAYBE ALGAL COUNTS OR

 

 

MATERIALS. SOMETIMES THERE WERE SUMMARY LISTS OF

 

 

THOSE, WHICH WOULD BE MORE USEFUL. BUT THE ACTUAL

 

 

RAW DATA, YOU KNOW, PAGES WITHOUT DATES, AND TIMES

 

 

AND PLACES, AND MAYBE THERE WAS A CODE, YOU DON'T

 

 

HAVE THE CODE, SO.

 

 

Q. IT'S BEEN AN INTERESTING CASE. ARE THESE

 

 

DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, SOME

 

 

OF THIS RAW DATA?

 

 

A. YES, I'M SURE IT WAS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WAS SOME OF IT PRODUCED BY' THE STATE?

 

 

A. I THINK SOME OF IT CAME FROM THE SOUTH FLOR---

 

 

Q. WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT?

 

 

A. WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT.

 

 

Q. BUT IT ALL CAME FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK?

 

 

A. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME THINGS I OBTAINED

 

 

MYSELF. I WENT TO THE DISTRICT AND OBTAINED SOME

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 328

 

 

 

 

OF THE REPORTS AND SOME DATA. AS I TOLD YOU

 

 

BEFORE, I THINK THERE'S SOME DATA IN THOSE FILES

 

 

WE GOT OFF OF COMPUTER RECORDS OURSELVES FROM

 

 

DATABANKS. AND SOME WE SEARCHED OURSELVES. SOME

 

 

OF IT'S OPEN PUBLIC LITERATURE. I CAN'T ATTEST TO

 

 

HOW MANY, BUT I'D SAY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE

 

 

MATERIAL IN THERE CAME FROM -- WELL, ALSO IT COULD

 

 

BE SOME FROM THE CO-OP. THEY OCCASIONALLY WILL

 

 

SEND ME -- I GET A LOT OF MATERIAL FROM A LOT OF

 

 

PEOPLE. I'LL GET SCIENTIST WHOFLL SAY, I FOUND

 

 

THIS NEAT ARTICLE ON THE EVERGLADES -- AND SEND

 

 

IT. I'LL GET, YOU KNOW, NEWSPAPER CL,IPPINGS.

 

 

I GET ALL SORTS OF THINGS. MY MAIL IS -- AND I

 

 

ALMOST NEED SOMEONE JUST TO SORT OF THE MAIL OUT

 

 

OF THIS.

 

 

Q. I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.

 

 

A. I DON'T READ IT ALL.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: LET'S TAKE A BREAK,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON.

(THEREUPON, A SHORT

 

 

BREAK WAS TAKEN.)

 

 

 

 

EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:

 

 

Q. DR. RICHARDSON, YOU SAID THAT YOU HAL) REVIEWED

 

 

DOCUMENTS ON THE ENR, ETCETERA, AND YOU NAMED

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 329

 

 

 

 

SEVERAL THINGS. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU BRIEFLY

 

 

YOUR OPINION OF THESE VARIOUS DOCUMENTS. YOU SAID

 

 

THAT YOU HAD BEEN SENT ENR WORKSHOP DOCUMENTS.

 

 

WHAT WERE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE ENR WORKSHOP

 

 

DOCUMENTS?

 

 

A. WELL, THERE WAS -- THAT WAS -- WHAT I REFERRED TO

 

 

THERE, THAT WAS ACTUALLY A WORKSHOP THAT I

 

 

ATTENDED---

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. --- AND SO, ESSENTIALLY, I THINK I SAID THAT -- OR

 

 

MEANT TO SAY, IF I DIDN'T, THAT ESSENTIALLY I HAD

 

 

DISCUSSED, AFTER THAT MEETING, WITH SOME PEOPLE

 

 

THE ESSENCE OF THE MEETING, THE UPSHOT. I

 

 

ACTUALLY WROTE DR. KADLEC A LETTER -- AND I THINK

 

 

YOU HAVE COPIES OF THAT OR DRAFTS OF THAT -- AS

 

 

TO MY OPINIONS ON THAT. I REVIEWED THAT. I

 

 

BASICALLY REVIEWED -- THERE WERE A NUMBER OF

 

 

PRESENTERS AT THAT MEETING, AND I REVIEWED SOME

 

 

OF THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THE MEETING. I HAD ACTUALLY

 

 

TAKEN SOME NOTES AT THAT MEETING, SO I HAD SOME

 

 

NOTES THAT I' KIND OF SUMMARIZED FROM, I BELIEVE;

 

 

LIKE HIGH POINTS OF THE ENR, THE NEE[) FOR IT;

 

 

THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE SAW THAT EXISTED; THE

 

 

UTILIZATION OF ENR AS IT RELATES TO STAIS; THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 330

 

 

 

 

PROBLEMS OF TRANSFERABILITY; THE PROBLEMS OF THE

 

 

SITE ITSELF. THERE WERE MANY ISSUES THAT WERE

 

 

BROUGHT UP AT THE ENR MEETING BY MANY DIFFERENT

EXPERTS.

 

 

Q. WELL, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, WHAT I HAD REALLY BEEN

 

 

DRIVING AT IN MY QUESTION WAS, IN YOUR OPINION,

 

 

WHAT ARE THE HIGH POINTS OF THE ENR, AS YOU CALL

 

 

THEM?

 

 

A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN HIGH POINTS, DO YOU MEAN THE

 

 

POSITIVE VERSUS THE NEGATIVE, OR DO YOU -- WHAT

 

 

WERE THE KEY POINTS OF THAT MEETING?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR. I THINK THAT'S THE SENSE IN WHICH YOU

 

 

USED THE WORD HIGH POINTS, WAS IT NOT?

 

 

A. YES. I GUESS -- I GUESS THE POSITIVE WAS THAT

 

 

THERE WAS -- PEOPLE WERE EXCITED ABOUT THE

 

 

POSSIBILITY OF THE ENR PROJECT, THE RESEARCH

 

 

ESPECIALLY FROM THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT,

 

 

THE ABILITY TO DO -- OR THE CAPAB -- LET'S SEE.

 

 

THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT RESEARCH, I THINK, WAS

 

 

QUITE REWARDING TO SOME OF THE WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

DISTRICT PEOPLE. THEY FELT THAT THINGS SHOULD BE

 

 

DONE TO ALLOW THEM TO DESIGN SOME ACTIVITIES.

 

 

THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ON ACTUALLY THE DESIGN

 

 

ITSELF. THERE WERE SOME POSITIVES. I THINK A LOT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 331

 

 

 

 

OF GOOD IDEAS CAME OUT OF THAT IN TERMS OF HOW IT

 

 

MIGHT BE SET UP.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT WERE THE CRITICISMS OR THE PROBLEMS

 

 

THAT YOU HAD OF THE ENR DESIGN?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK COMING TO CLOSURE, I GUESS, MY MAJOR

 

 

ONE WAS -- AND, OF COURSE, STILL IS -- IS THE FACT

 

 

THE ENR PROJECT IS NOT IN TIME SYNC WITH THE

 

 

STAIS. THE AGREEMENTS, I GUESS, THAT'S BEEN --

 

 

THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT THAT'S BEEN PERMEATING

 

 

FROM ON HIGH, SHALL WE SAY, BASICALLY DOESN'T

 

 

ALLOW SCIENCE TO REACH ITS CONCLUSION. IT JUST --

 

 

IT DOESN'T -- OR EVEN START. IT ESSENTIALLY --

 

 

THE STATE HAS ONE VIEW AND THE FEDERAL JUSTICE

 

 

DEPARTMENT SEEMS TO HAVE ANOTHER VIEW, IN TERMS OF

 

 

THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, SO THEY ESSENTIALLY ARE

 

 

ALLOWING THE ENR PROJECT AND THE STATS TO GO ON

 

 

SIMULTANEOUSLY. SO, AS A SCIENTIST -- AND I THINK

 

 

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE AT THAT MEETING AIJSO FELT THE

 

 

SAME, AND -- THAT, IN FACT, THIS WAS NOT THE WAY

 

 

IT SHOULD BE DONE.

 

 

SECONDLY, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF ISSUES THAT

 

 

WERE BROUGHT UP. I AM NOT SURE THEY'VE ALL BEEN

 

 

ADDRESSED. THAT RELATES TO SUCH ISSUES AS BMPIS,

 

 

WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THAT WOULD CHANGE THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 332

 

 

 

 

FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS GOING INTO THE SYSTEM, AND HOW

 

 

THAT WOULD EFFECT, AND BE TESTED FOR, AND THE USE

 

 

OF ALTERNATE PLANTS, RETENTION TIMES, DEPTH OF

 

 

WATER, EFFECTS OF SOIL. THERE ARE A HOST OF

 

 

ISSUES THAT ARE RELATED TO A PROJECT THAT HAS --

 

 

THE PROPOSED STA PROJECT IS NOT ONLY THE LARGEST

 

 

EVER PROPOSED THAT I'VE EVER BEEN AWARE OF; IT IS

 

 

ALSO ONE THATFS BEING BASED ON SOME PAUCITY OF

 

 

DATA IN TERMS OF REFERENCE SITES, AS TO HOW THEY

 

 

MIGHT WORK. AND SO THERE ARE A LOT OF DESIGN

 

 

CRITERIA THAT REALLY NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. AND I

 

 

THINK -- SO, I POINTED OUT WHERE I THINK THAT --

 

 

THE VALUE OF THE ENR PROJECT, I MEAN, AS I'VE SAID

 

 

I THINK IN PUBLIC MEETINGS, AND I'VE SAID MANY

 

 

TIMES, THE ENR HAS VALUE.

 

 

SO, I THINK THAT, IN ESSENCE, YOU KNOW,

 

 

COVERS IT. I DON'T REMEMBER -- IT'S BEEN QUITE A

 

 

HILE -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE SPECIFIC.

 

 

SURE. LET ME ASK YOU THIS. YOU SAY THAT -- I

 

 

GUESS WHAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO IN THE SETTLEMENT

 

 

AGREEMENT WAS THE -- HAVE YOU REVIEWED THAT

 

 

DOCUMENT, THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT?

 

 

A. NOT IN ANY DETAIL. I'VE LOOKED AT SOME PIECES OF

 

 

IT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 333

 

 

 

 

Q. WHAT PIECES DID YOU LOOK AT?

 

 

A. WELL, THERE'S SO MANY OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, I CAN'T

 

 

TELL YOU WHICH ONE IS REALLY THE SETTLEMENT

 

 

AGREEMENT. I THINK I LOOKED---

 

 

Q. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SHOW YOU ONE?

 

 

A. SURE. THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I THINK THERE'S ONE

 

 

UNDERNEATH OVER THERE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, MR. PONZOLI

 

 

AND MR. JONES CONFER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHEN YOU SAID IT CAME FROM "ON

 

 

HIGH," YOU WERE JUST SORT OF TEASING, WEREN'T YOU?

 

 

A. WELL.

 

 

Q. DID YOU THINK IT WAS DIVINELY INSPIRED?

 

 

A. NOT THAT HIGH.

 

 

MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISSCUSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

(BY MS. PONZOLI) I'M GOING TO HAND YOU A NOTICE

OF FILING, SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT -- IT HAS THE

 

 

SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT -- INSPIRED BY WHOMEVER --

 

 

AND ASK YOU TO TELL ME WHAT PIECES OF IT YOU HAVE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 334

 

 

 

 

REVIEWED.

 

 

A. WELL, I'LL HAVE TO GO -- BELIEVE ME, I HAVE SEEN

 

 

A LOT OF DOCUMENTS, SO I DON'T KNOW IF -- I MEAN,

 

 

I THINK I -- LET ME TAKE A MOMENT HERE TO LOOK AT

 

 

THIS.

 

 

(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE YOU READY?

 

 

A. I'M READY.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. WHICH PIECES DID YOU REVIEW OF THE

 

 

SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. I -- AND WHEN YOU SAY "REVIEW," I WILL TELL YOU

 

 

WHAT I HAVE DONE. I HAVE RECEIVED, I THINK,

 

 

SEVERAL COPIES OF THIS, THAT I HAVE REVIEWED IN

 

 

A CURSORY MANNER. I HAVE NOT REVIEWE:D THIS WITH

 

 

ANY DOCUMENTATION, NOR HAVE I DISCUSSED IN ANY

 

 

REAT DETAIL MANY COMPONENTS. I THINK I'VE

 

 

EXTRACTED FROM THIS A FEW OF THE PROPOSED

 

 

STANDARDS AND SO FORTH THAT I'VE USED IN VARIOUS

 

 

TALKS, AND -- BUT I HAVE NOT DONE A VERY EXTENSIVE

 

 

ANALYSIS OF THIS.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 335

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT PORTIONS OF IT, THE STANDARDS,

 

 

ETCETERA, DO YOU OBJECT TO, OR HAVE CRITICISMS

 

 

OF?

 

 

A. WELL, AS I SAID, I'VE ONLY GIVEN IT A VERY CURSORY

 

 

REVIEW, SO I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH AND LOOK

 

 

SPECIFICALLY AT EACH ONE. I HAVEN'T HAD A -- IF

 

 

YOU HAVE SPECIFIC ONES.

 

 

Q. WELL, THE INTERIM STANDARDS FOR THE PARK AND THE

 

 

REFUGE OR THE LONG-TERM STANDARDS. ARE YOU

 

 

TELLING ME, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU HAVE REALLY

 

 

NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THOSE ARE?

 

 

A. WELL, I HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY ARE, BUT

 

 

I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, IN ALL SERIOUSNESS,

 

 

I MEAN, THOSE NUMBERS HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY.

 

 

Q. AND SO YOU'RE UNFAMILIAR WITH WHETHER THOSE

 

 

NUMBERS WOULD APPEAR IN THE SWIM PLAN AGAIN, OR

 

 

NOT?

 

 

A. WELL, THAT -- AND I'M NOT SURE. I GET A LITTLE

 

 

BIT CONFUSED IN THE MANGARELLA-DOUGLAS ACT AND THE

 

 

SWIM PLAN, AND THE SWIM PLAN DOCUMENTS, AND THE

 

 

FINAL SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT. I HAVE NOT SPENT A

 

 

LOT OF TIME POURING OVER THIS, BUT I HAVE -- AS

 

 

FAR AS I CAN LOOK AT HERE, EXTRACT -- OBVIOUSLY,

 

 

THE FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION NUMBER IS ONE THAT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 336

 

 

 

 

SEEMS TO POP OUT HERE AS AN INTERIM STANDARD.

 

 

AND WHEN I LOOK BACK THROUGH PARTS OF IT, THERE

 

 

WERE STANDARDS SET FOR SHARK RIVER, AND THE

 

 

LOXAHATCHEE, AND SO FORTH AND SO ON, YOU KNOW.

 

 

Q. HAVE YOU EVER REVIEWED THOSE FOR PURPOSES OF

 

 

DETERMINING IF YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE APPROPRIATE

 

 

OR NOT?

 

 

A. NO, I HAVEN'T. FOR THE LOXAHATCHEE, I HAVEN'T,

 

 

BECAUSE I, AS YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T HAD ACCESS, SO I

 

 

HAVE NO BASIS ON WHICH TO COMPARE THE LOXAHATCHEE.

 

 

AND I HAVEN'T -- AND FOR THE PARK, AGAIN, NOT

 

 

HAVING ACCESS, I HAVE NO BASIS FOR KNOWING WHAT'S

 

 

INSIDE THE PARK. I HAVE LOOKED AT THEM IN TERMS

 

 

OF SOME OF THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT

 

 

DISTRICT DATA---

 

 

Q. WELL, LET ME---

 

 

A. --- FOR EXAMPLE, THE DATA GOING INTO THE PARK

 

 

SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT IT IS ABOUT WHAT THE

 

 

STANDARD IS, IT'S ABOUT TEN PARTS PER BILLION,

 

 

SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. THAT'S MY

 

 

RECOLLECTION.

 

 

Q. IT'S YOUR RECOLLECTION FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA

 

 

WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DATA?

 

 

A. YEAH, I BELIEVE IT'S ABOUT TEN PARTS PER BILLION

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 337

 

 

 

 

THAT'S BEING GOING IN THERE FOR, YOU KNOW -- I

 

 

DON'T KNOW WHAT THE STATISTICS IS RELATED TO IT,

 

 

YOU KNOW, THE STANDARD ERRORS OF THAT, BUT IT'S

 

 

NOT TOO BIG. SO, ESSENTIALLY, THAT'S WHAT I

 

 

RECOLLECT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT IS RECOMMENDED

 

 

HERE, BUT I'D HAVE TO GO SORT OF LINE BY LINE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, MR. McCAUGHAN ENTERS

 

 

THE DEPOSITION AT 11:51 A.M.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU WERE SAYING IN REGARD TO --

 

 

ANY OTHER COMMENTS ON IT? YOU JUST DON'T REALLY

 

 

RECALL IT THAT WELL?

 

 

A. WELL, I MEAN, I HAVE JUST A GENERAL CURSORY

 

 

KNOWLEDGE. I DON'T GO THROUGH -- I HAVE NOT GONE

 

 

THROUGH AND MADE EXTENSIVE NOTES, AND LINE BY

 

 

LINE. I MEAN, AS I SAID, THE FIFTY PARTS PER

 

 

BILLION COMES OUT AS AN INTERIM ONE. THE PARK HAS

 

 

A TEN. I'M NOT SURE -- I HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING

 

 

EXTENSIVELY ON THIS DOCUMENT.

 

 

OKAY. DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ON THE FIFTY PARTS

 

 

PER BILLION INTERIM STANDARD?

 

 

A. I MEAN, IN WHAT TERMS? I MEAN, OPINION AS---

 

 

Q. WELL, DO YOU -- DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO

 

 

WHETHER IT'S AN APPROPRIATE INTERIM STANDARD TO BE

 

 

GOING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS WHICH ARE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 338

 

 

 

 

THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE APPROPRIATE -- I DON'T KNOW

 

 

IF YOU'RE ASKING ME WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL

 

 

ACHIEVE FIFTY, I DON'T KNOW THAT; AND I DON'T

 

 

WHETHER FIFTY IS THE RIGHT CONCENTRATION AT THIS

 

 

STAGE.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT YOU WOULD

 

 

BELIEVE AN APPROPRIATE INTERIM CONCEIITRATION

 

 

SHOULD BE?

 

 

A. NOT UNTIL WE COMPLETE THE DOSING STUDY. THAT

 

 

MIGHT GIVE US A MUCH BETTER HANDLE ON WHAT WE

 

 

WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE.

 

 

Q. AND WHEN WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE THAT WOULD BE?

 

 

A. WELL, IT'S UNDERWAY NOW, AS YOU KNOW, AND IT COULD

 

 

BE A YEAR.

 

 

Q. YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE AN ANSWER III ONE YEAR?

 

 

A. IT'S A WELL, WE'D HAVE -- WE'D HAVE SOME

 

 

INDICATION. I MEAN, IT MAY BE AFTER A YEAR WE

 

 

DON'T SEE A RESPONSE.

 

 

Q. YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MACROPHYTE RESPONSES

 

 

IN A SINGLE YEAR, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. PROBABLY NOT. THERE COULD BE SOME. I DON'T

 

 

BUT PROBABLY NOT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 339

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. HOW LONG WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE IT WOULD TAKE

 

 

FOR MACROPHYTE RESPONSES TO SHOW UP AT THE DOSING

 

 

STUDY?

 

 

A. IT COULD BE SEVERAL YEARS. I'M NOT -- I'M NOT

 

 

SURE. WE'RE -- WE'RE AHEAD OF THE GAME IN ONE

 

 

SENSE; WE HAVE THE FERTILIZER STUDY 110 TRY TO DO

 

 

THAT, IN THE SENSE THAT -- WHILE IT'S A MASS

 

 

LOADING EXPERIMENT, IT TRIES TO GIVE US SOME

 

 

RESPONSE. AND SO WE'RE NOW IN OUR THIRD YEAR ON

 

 

THAT, SO IN ONE CASE WE'RE A LITTLE BIT UP ON

 

 

THAT. SO, IT MAY GIVE US SOME INFORMATION ON

 

 

THAT. THE DOSING STUDY, OBVIOUSLY, IS JUST COMING

 

 

ON LINE IS GOING TO TAKE -- I CAN'T SAY HOW LONG

 

 

IT WILL TAKE, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT TAKES SEVERAL

 

 

YEARS, MAYBE LONGER. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO

 

 

THAT.

 

 

Q. WELL, I GUESS I'M CONFUSED.

 

 

A. RELATED TO MACROPHYTES.

 

 

Q. WELL, WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD HAVE AN ANSWER

 

 

AS TO AN APPROPRIATE STANDARD? I MEAN, COULD YOU

 

 

GIVE US AN ESTIMATE OF WHEN YOU THINK THAT THE

 

 

DOSING STUDY WOULD YIELD SUFFICIENT DATA TO GIVE

 

 

US AN ANSWER AS TO WHAT AN APPROPRIATE STANDARD

 

 

WOULD BE?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 340

 

 

 

 

A. I THINK THAT WE---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM

OF THE QUESTION.

 

 

A. --- I WOULD THINK -- IT'S HARD TO DETERMINE. AS I

 

 

SAID, IF YOU GET A RESPONSE, IT MAY BE POSSIBLE

 

 

FOR SOME COMPONENTS YOU GET A RESPONSE EARLY, OR

 

 

IT MAY NOT BE. I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE MANY

 

 

COMPONENTS OF THE SYSTEM WEFRE LOOKING AT. I

 

 

THINK THE PARK RAN THEIR STUDY FOR SEVERAL YEARS

 

 

BEFORE THEY GOT A RESPONSE.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH. UH-HUH.

 

 

A. --- SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO KNOW IN THE

 

 

EXPERIMENT BEFORE YOU DO THE EXPERIMENT. I MEAN,

 

 

AS I WAS SAYING, THE FERTILIZER -- WE DON'T HAVE

 

 

JUST THE DOSING STUDY, WE HAVE THE FERTILIZER

 

 

STUDY, TOO, WHICH WILL GIVE US A LITTLE LONGER

 

 

TIME ON THE MACROPHYTES. BUT THE -- SOME OF THE

 

 

ORGANISMS RESPOND SOONER, LIKE PERIPIIYTON AND SO

 

 

FORTH.

 

 

Q. WELL, COMBINING THE FERTILIZER STUDY AND THE

 

 

DOSING STUDY, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH AN

 

 

APPROPRIATE INTERIM STANDARD WITHIN A YEAR?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. IT MAY BE POSSIBLE, IT MAY NOT. I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 341

 

 

 

 

Q. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

Q. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THERE WOULD BE AN ANSWER

 

 

AVAILABLE?

 

 

A. NO. I MEAN, IT COULD BE -- IT COULD BE SOONER,

 

 

BUT IT MIGHT -- YOU KNOW, I JUST CAN'T SAY AT THIS

 

 

TIME. I MEAN, IT WOULD BE LIKE -- I DON'T

 

 

PARTICULARLY FEEL I CAN BE HELD TO IT, BECAUSE I

 

 

DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO RESPOND. I MEAN,

 

 

WE -- WE THOUGHT WOULD HAVE THE DOSING STUDY

 

 

GOING, OH, A YEAR AGO, OR CLOSE TO IT, BUT WE HAD

 

 

ALL SORTS OF---

 

 

Q. I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED ABOUT THAT, DR. RICHARDSON.

 

 

I HAVE TO TELL YOU TRUTHFULLY, IT'S TAKEN A LONG

 

 

TIME TO GET THAT DOSING STUDY UP AND GOING, AND IT

 

 

WASN'T ALL HURRICANE RELATED. IS THERE JUST LIKE

 

 

A REAL SIMPLE, TWENTY WORDS OR LESS, EXPLANATION

 

 

FOR WHY?

 

 

A. YES, I -- WELL---

 

 

Q. YOU THOUGHT YOU'D ALREADY GIVEN ME THAT?

 

 

A. NO. NO. NO. IT HAPPENS TO BE, I THINK, A ONE

 

 

OF A TYPE STUDY. PEOPLE HAVE NOT DONE THAT STUDY

 

 

OF THAT MAGNITUDE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE EVERGLADES

 

 

WITH NO ELECTRICITY, TRYING TO USE A SORT OF A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 342

 

 

 

 

PLUG FLOW THEORY IN A SENSE OF PUSHING WATER

 

 

THROUGH, AND KEEPING A CONSTANT CONCENTRATION

 

 

RATHER THAN A GRADIENT. AND, BASICALLY, IT'S NOT

 

 

SOMETHING YOU CAN GO TO THE SHELF. WE DID NOT

 

 

WANT TO DUPLICATE WHAT WAS DONE BY THE PARK SINCE

 

 

IT WASN'T REPLICATED. WE WANTED -- WE HAD TO HAVE

 

 

A YEAR'S WORTH OF BACKGROUND, EQUILIBRATION DATA.

 

 

WEFVE HAD SOME STAFFING PROBLEMS; WE'VE HAD

 

 

HURRICANE PROBLEMS; WE'VE HAD SOME DESIGN

 

 

PROBLEMS -- NOTHING THAT'S AFFECTED THE SITE,

 

 

PER SE, BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN VERY CAREFUL TO KEEP

 

 

THAT. BUT IT'S A -- IT'S A DIFFICULT EXPERIMENT.

 

 

IT'S NOT AN EASY EXPERIMENT TO DO.

 

 

Q. SURE.

 

 

A. SOMEONE WHO WOULD TRY TO DO THIS WOULD FIND IT

 

 

VERY DIFFICULT.

 

 

Q. ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE AN ONGOING PROBLEM WITH THE

 

 

SOLAR DRIVEN SYSTEM AND ALL THE CLOUDINESS AND

 

 

RAIN IN THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. WE'VE INCREASED THE SOLAR PANELS AND THE BATTERY

 

 

COMPLEXES, SO I THINK WE'VE OVERCOME THAT. AND

 

 

WE HAD SOME INITIAL PROBLEMS. BOB JOHNSON IS

 

 

VERY CAPABLE IN DESIGNING THOSE, AND SO I THINK

 

 

WE'VE OVERCOME SOME OF THAT. WE MAY HAVE TO GO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 343

 

 

 

 

TO SOME MORE EXPENSIVE BATTERIES THAN WE ONCE

 

 

THOUGHT, BUT I THINK WE'VE GOT MOST OF THE BUGS

 

 

WORKED OUT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. OKAY, ON THE ENR -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT

 

 

YOUR COMMENTS ON THE ENR. YOU'VE TALKED SEVERAL

 

 

TIMES ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF TRANSFERABILITY. WHAT

 

 

DOES THAT MEAN?

 

 

A. WELL, PRIMARILY, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO

 

 

HAVE TRANSFERABILITY IF THE STUDY'S NOT ALLOWED TO

 

 

GO; HOW CAN YOU TRANSFER SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T

 

 

COMPLETED. I MEAN, MY POINT IS -- I THINK THAT IT

 

 

WAS MY PRIMARY CONCERN IS IF -- IF THE STAFS --

 

 

YOU HAVE A THIRTY-SEVEN HUNDRED ACRE EXPERIMENT,

 

 

ROUGHLY, AND THEN YOU'RE BASICALLY, IN MY OPINION

 

 

AS A SCIENTIST, SETTING UP ANOTHER THIRTY-FIVE

 

 

THOUSAND ACRE EXPERIMENT AT THE SAME TIME. SO,

 

 

ESSENTIALLY, HOW CAN YOU TRANSFER THE,' INFORMATION

 

 

FROM ONE STUDY THAT YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HARDLY

 

 

STARTED? THERE'S NOTHING TO TRANSFER, ONLY LITTLE

 

 

A. BITS AND PIECES. AND SO I THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM

 

 

TO START OFF, AND THAT'S A PRETTY MAJOR PROBLEM IN

 

 

TERMS OF TRANSFER---

 

 

OKAY. YOU DON'T THINK YOU'VE HAD A TWENTY YEAR

 

 

EXPERIMENT GOING IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 344

 

 

 

 

A. IT'S NOT AN EXPERIMENT, PER SE, OR AT LEAST NOT A

 

 

CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT. THERE HAS BEEN -- I THINK

 

 

THAT'S PART AND PARCEL -- PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH

 

 

THE WATER CONSERVATION AREA DATA IS THAT WHILE IT

 

 

IS INFORMATIVE AND IT IS HELPFUL, THERE ARE SOME

 

 

CAVEATS THAT ONE HAS TO LOOK AT, WHICH I MENTIONED

 

 

THE OTHER DAY. THE WATER LEVELS HAVE BEEN RAISED

 

 

AND LOWERED SIGNIFICANTLY IN THAT AREA. THERE

 

 

HAVE BEEN DROUGHT PROBLEMS, RETENTION TIME, THE

 

 

WATER MOVEMENT, THE FLOW. A LOT OF THOSE FACTORS

 

 

HAVE NOT BEEN STUDIED IN ANY GREAT DETAIL, AND I

 

 

THINK THERE'S A LOT OF HAND WAVING AS TO HOW THOSE

 

 

NUMBERS CAN BE TRANSFERRED WHEN, IN FACT, SOME OF

 

 

THOSE NUMBERS DON'T EXIST. SO---

 

 

Q. BUT YOU DO BELIEVE, AS YOU SIT HERE -- CAUSE I

THINK YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY AND MAYBE EVEN -- I

 

 

GUESS YESTERDAY -- THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A

 

 

HAS FUNCTIONED AS AN EFFECTIVE SINK FOR NUTRIENTS

 

 

FOR THAT PERIOD OF TIME, HAVEN'T YOU?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THAT AREA HAS FUNCTIONED AS A SINK, BUT

 

 

IT HAS -- IT'S NOT FUNCTIONED -- ITFS FUNCTIONED

 

 

IN SOME WAYS THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN SOME PEOPLE

 

 

MAY SURMISE.

 

 

IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR BELIEF IS THAT WE DON'T

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 345

 

 

UNDERSTAND 2A?

 

 

A. NOT AS WELL AS WE -- NOT AS WELL AS WE MIGHT. AND

 

 

WE DON'T UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE VARIABILITIES THAT

 

 

HAVE TAKEN PLACE TO GET TO THOSE RATES. IT'S NOT

 

 

AS SIMPLE AS SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT OUT

 

 

TO BE, IN TERMS OF A BLACK BOX, FOR EXAMPLE.

 

 

Q. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE BLACK BOX -- YOU TALKED

 

 

ABOUT THAT YESTERDAY, ALSO -- ARE YOU REFERRING TO

 

 

THE CONCEPT OF A MASS BALANCE, WHERE YOU MEASURE

 

 

THE PHOSPHORUS IN AND THE PHOSPHORUS OUT? IS THAT

 

 

WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

 

 

A. WELL, QUITE OFTEN, THAT CAN BE ONE WAY IN WHICH

 

 

PEOPLE LOOK AT IT. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE

 

 

MECHANISMS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE INSIDE. THERE

 

 

ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE

 

 

MECHANISMS INSIDE THAT AREA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE

 

 

MECHANISMS---

 

 

A. I HAVE, MY STAFF HAS.

 

 

Q. --- FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS.

 

 

A. ROUGHLY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERS?

 

 

A. WE HAVE SOME.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 346

 

 

 

 

A. WE HAVE QUESTIONS, TOO.

 

 

Q. I GUESS -- I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU, WHERE I'M

 

 

DRIVING IS, IS THAT WITH THE ENR, HOW MANY ANSWERS

 

 

DO YOU NEED BEFORE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK I SAID AT SEVERAL MEETINGS, THERE

 

 

ARE SOME MAJOR QUESTIONS THAT -- WE KNOW A LOT.

 

 

I'M NOT SAYING WE'RE NOT -- WE'RE NOT DEVOID OF

 

 

INFORMATION; WE KNOW A LOT. BUT THERE ARE A LOT

 

 

OF QUESTIONS -- AT LEAST IN MY MIND -- AND I JUST

 

 

HAVE -- I'M NOT FAMILIAR A LOT OF THE INFORMATION

 

 

THAT PEOPLE MAY HAVE THAT I HAVEN'T SEEN. SO,

 

 

I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST, BUT I

 

 

HAVEN'T BEEN SHOWN, NOR HAVE I SEEN AT PUBLIC

 

 

MEETINGS, I DON'T SEE CLEAR DATA ON RETENTION

 

 

TIMES AND FLOW RATES THROUGH THE SYSTEM. I DON'T

 

 

SEE -- I SEE ONLY -- YOU KNOW, THE OPTIMUM WOULD

 

 

BE IF WE HAD -- I THINK THE ACCRETION DATA IS

 

 

QUITE GOOD. I THINK WE HAVE SOME SHC@RING UP TO DO

 

 

IN THAT AREA, SOME REFINING, BUT I THINK WE HAVE A

 

 

PRETTY GOOD HANDLE ON THAT. I THINK THE WATER

 

 

CONCENTRATION DATA IS NOT SO GOOD. AND IT WOULD

 

 

BE NICE IF WE HAD TWENTY-SIX YEARS OF'

 

 

CONCENTRATION DATA FOR THAT AREA. IU' WOULD BE

 

 

VERY NICE IF WE HAD FLOW DATA FROM THE GATES TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 347

 

 

 

 

SEVERAL POINTS IN THERE; WE DON'T HAVE THAT DATA.

 

 

IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE HAD WATER DEPTHS, OTHER

 

 

THAN ONE STATION SITTING IN THE MIDDLE, AND A FEW

 

 

OTHER SPARSE PARTIAL RECORDS; WE DON'T HAVE THAT,

 

 

AND SO YOU COULD GO ON AND ON. THERE ARE A NUMBER

 

 

OF THESE QUESTIONS THAT, TO ME, ADD UNCERTAINTY AS

 

 

TO WHETHER OR NOT ONE WILL HAVE THE SAME -- AND,

 

 

OF COURSE, THE ENR PROPERTY IS BUILT ON FORMER

 

 

AGRICULTURAL LAND, VERY DEEP PEATED LAND, AND LAND

 

 

THAT HAD BEEN FARMED PRIOR TO THIS. SO, WE HAVE

 

 

SOME QUESTIONS ON THE SORPTION OF PHOSPHORUS, THAT

 

 

WE HAVE SOME LABORATORY STUDIES ON, BUT WE DON'T

 

 

HAVE TOO MANY -- TOO MUCH DATA ON THAT.

 

 

AND THEN THE OTHER COMPONENT IS THAT WATER

 

 

CONSERVATION AREA 2A GOES DRY, AND WE NEED TO TEST

 

 

THE EFFECTS OF DRY AND WET PERIODS.

 

 

Q. HOW DEEP IS THE PEAT AT THE ENR?

 

 

A. OH, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, BUT IT'S I THINK IT'S

 

 

SEVERAL METERS---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I COULD BE WRONG; IT MAY BE A METER AND A HALF,

 

 

BUT IT'S -- IT MAY BE SEVERAL METERS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. YOU'VE INDICATED THAT YOU THINK THAT

 

 

THERE'S A PAUCITY OF DATA FOR SETTING UP THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 348

 

 

 

 

STA'S. IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I SAID WE HAVE SOME COMPONENTS.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. WE BASICALLY HAVE COMPONENTS TO -- FOR CERTAIN

 

 

AREAS, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT I

 

 

THINK WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE. THE ENIZ PROJECT, IF

 

 

THIS IS TO BE A SUCCESS, AND IT'S TO BE DONE

 

 

RIGHT, AND IF THERE WAS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT -- IF

 

 

I THOUGHT PERSONALLY THAT, IN FACT, THE EVERGLADES

 

 

WAS GOING TO CEASE TO EXIST TOMORROW BECAUSE OF

 

 

IMMEDIATE THREAT -- ONE MIGHT MOVE FORWARD WITH

 

 

THIS, BUT -- ON A VERY RAPID -- WHAT I CALL FAST

 

 

TRACK. BUT I DON'T THINK THE EVIDENCE IS AT HAND

 

 

THAT THIS IS A -- THIS IS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO

 

 

THE EXISTENCE OF THE EVERGLADES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. I THINK I DO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU FEEL THAT

 

 

WAY. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WINDOW OF' TIME IS FOR

 

 

ADDRESSING THESE PROBLEMS?

 

 

A. WHEN YOU SAY "WINDOW OF TIME," DO YOU MEAN HOW

 

 

MUCH DO TIME DO WE HAVE---

 

 

Q. THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT TIME PROBLEMS, RIGHT.

 

 

RIGHT.

 

 

A. WELL, I WOULD THINK WE HAVE AT LEAST A DECADE THAT

 

 

WE COULD DEAL WITH THIS, MAYBE MORE. THAT'S NOT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 349

 

 

 

 

TO SAY THAT I DON'T RECOMMEND BMPIS AND REDUCING

 

 

PHOSPHORUS AT THE SOURCE AS MUCH AS TECHNOLOGY AND

 

 

ECONOMICS WILL ALLOW TO BE DONE.

 

 

Q. BUT, IN ESSENCE, IF I UNDERSTOOD YOU CORRECTLY,

 

 

YOUR CLIENTS REALLY REJECTED THAT ADVICE FROM THE

 

 

BEGINNING. THEY HAVE BEEN COMPELLED UNDER STATE

 

 

LAW TO REDUCE BY TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT (25%), BUT

 

 

YOU WERE NOT ENCOURAGED NOR COMMISSIONED TO DO

 

 

RESEARCH IN THE EAA ON BMP'S, WERE YOU?

 

 

MR. GREEN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

MR. BURGESS:. OBJECT TO THE FORM

 

 

OF THE QUESTION.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I'M SURPRISED.

 

 

A. I WASN'T ASKED TO DO RESEARCH IN THE EAA. AS I

 

 

SAID, I HAD A FULL PLATE IN THE WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREA.

 

 

Q. YOU WERE ASKED TO DO BMP'S IN THE WATER

 

 

CONSERVATION AREAS, THOUGH, WEREN'T YOU?

 

 

A. YEAH. IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, MY

 

 

A. LONG-TERM GOAL IS TO BASICALLY COLLECT ENOUGH DATA

 

 

TO BASICALLY LOOK AT GIVING GUIDANCE -- AND WHICH

 

 

IS STARTED OUT TO DO -- TO WORK -- AS YOU WILL

 

 

FIND FROM SOME OF MY EARLY LETTERS IN THERE -- TO

 

 

WORK WITH THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AND TRY

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 350

 

 

 

 

TO COME UP WITH SOME -- WITH DATA THAT I THOUGHT

 

 

WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, THAT WOULD HELP THEM. I SAW

 

 

IT AT THAT TIME, AND STILL SEE IT AT THIS TIME, AS

 

 

A TEAM EFFORT THAT THAT DATA CAN BE UTILIZED TO

 

 

HELP WITH SOME MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES, ALBEIT THAT

 

 

ALL SCIENCE DOESN'T LEAD TO EVERY -- IMMEDIATELY

 

 

TRANSFERABLE MANAGEMENT PIECES. I MEAN, SOME DOES

 

 

AND SOMETIMES DOES NOT.

 

 

Q. THIS WAS RESEARCH GEARED TOWARD MANAGEMENT GOALS,

 

 

IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. IN TERMS OF MY VIEW---

 

 

Q. YES.

 

 

A. --- YES. I BASICALLY -- MY PROPOSAL WAS WRITTEN --

 

 

I SHIFTED THE PROPOSAL IN TERMS OF WHAT I THOUGHT

 

 

WAS APPROPRIATE, BECAUSE MY GOAL IS BASICALLY TO

 

 

MAKE SURE THE EVERGLADES EXIST IN THE FUTURE, TOO.

 

 

SO, I SHIFTED COMPONENTS OF THIS TO WHAT I THOUGHT

 

 

WOULD BE HELPFUL IN TERMS OF THE SCIENCE THAT

 

 

WOULD GIVE US BETTER INFORMATION TO HELP MANAGE

 

 

THOSE SYSTEMS, IN TERMS OF VEGETATION AND WATER,

 

 

AND UNDERSTANDING THE DYNAMICS OF PHOSPHORUS.

 

 

OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE NUTRIENTS, MY

 

 

UNDERSTANDING FROM YOUR GOALS, AS STATED

 

 

THROUGHOUT MULTIPLE DOCUMENTS, IS THAT YOU WERE,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 351

 

 

 

 

AND STILL ARE, LOOKING TO SEE HOW MUCH PHOSPHORUS

 

 

THIS SYSTEM CAN HOLD AS A SINK. IS THAT A FAIR

 

 

STATEMENT?

 

 

A. THAT'S ONE OF THE GOALS. I THINK IT'S THE SECOND

 

 

GOAL OR WHATEVER, YEAH.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WE HAVE

 

 

TEN YEARS, MAYBE MORE, BEFORE YOU WOULD FEEL THERE

 

 

WAS AN IMMEDIATE THREAT, WOULD THAT -- WOULD WE

 

 

HAVE AN IMMEDIATE THREAT IN TEN YEARS?

 

 

A. NO, I JUST USED THAT FIGURE. AS I SAID, I DON'T

 

 

FEEL THERE IS A THREAT.

 

 

Q. A THREAT, OR AN IMMEDIATE THREAT?

 

 

A. WELL, AFTER THIRTY PLUS YEARS OR FORTY YEARS OF

 

 

EAA RUNOFF, WE HAVE -- AND I SAID BEFORE, IT

 

 

APPEARS TO ME THAT THERE IS A TWO OR THREE PERCENT

 

 

(2% OR 3%) AREA THAT HAS BEEN EFFECTED. AND IT IS

 

 

STILL -- EVEN THOSE AREAS ARE STILL FUNCTIONING AS

 

 

WETLANDS, ALBEIT THEY MAY BE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT IN

 

 

THEIR FUNCTIONS THAN THEY WERE, SOME POSITIVE

 

 

ASPECTS OF THAT, WHICH WE'VE ALLUDED TO IN OUR

 

 

REPORTS. BUT I WOULDN'T SAY JUST TEN YEARS; I

 

 

THINK IT'S VERY HARD TO SAY TEN YEARS. BUT I -- I

 

 

WOULD SAY MY PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT IS THAT WE'RE

 

 

NOT UNDER AN IMMEDIATE THREAT FROM PHOSPHORUS AS A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 352

 

 

 

 

MAJOR THREAT TO THE EVERGLADES -- AT LEAST THE

 

 

EVIDENCE I HAVE. I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE

 

 

LOXAHATCHEE, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN IN THERE. I

 

 

CAN'T SPEAK TO THE PARK, BECAUSE I'VE NOT BEEN

 

 

ALLOWED TO GO IN THERE.

 

 

Q. SO, YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) IS REALLY

 

 

WATER CONSERVATION -- THE DAMAGE IN WATER

 

 

CONSERVATION AREA 2A AND 3A?

 

 

A. IT MAY INCLUDE SOME OF 1, TOO, BECAUSE I BELIEVE

 

 

ON SOME OF THE FLY-OVERS AND SOME OF THE

 

 

PHOTOGRAPHS I'VE LOOKED AT INCLUDED 1. AND SOME

 

 

OF THE LANDSAT STUFF, I THINK I'VE LOOKED AT IN

 

 

GENERAL WAYS, I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW MUCH OF THE

 

 

PARK IT INCLUDES. I ACTUALLY VISITED THE PARK IN

 

 

AN EARLY MEETING AT THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK,

 

 

AND SPENT SOME TIME LOOKING AT THEIR REMOTE

 

 

SENSING PHOTOGRAPHS EARLY ON. THEY WERE ACTUALLY

 

 

MAPPING ALL THE EVERGLADES PARK---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- SO, I KNEW SEVERAL OF THE STUDENTS SO I SPENT

 

 

SOME TIME TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THAT AND LOOKING

 

 

AT THEIR---

 

 

SO, YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) IS BASED

 

 

ON THE LANDSAT INTERPRETATION?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 353

 

 

 

 

A. IT'S BASED ON SOME OF THAT, AND SOME OTHER

 

 

ASPECTS, YES, AND SOME OF THE -- IT'l@3 A SORT OF A

 

 

COMPILATION OF THINGS.

 

 

Q. WHAT ARE THE OTHER ASPECTS THAT IT'S BASED ON?

 

 

A. OH, DOCUMENTS THAT I'VE REVIEWED, AN[) SOME OF MY

 

 

PERSONAL OVER FLIGHTS, AND I THINK SOME OF

 

 

LARSON'S INFORMATION THAT I HAVE SEEN.

 

 

Q. HIS VEGETATION---

 

 

A. RIGHT. FOR---

 

 

Q. --- MAPPING?

 

 

A. --- FOR ONE LOCATION.

 

 

Q. IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?

 

 

A. 2A.

 

 

Q. DID YOU USE THAT INFORMATION FOR SETTING UP YOUR

 

 

TRANSECTS IN THE BEGINNING FOR THE GRADIENT

 

 

STUDY?

 

 

A. I CAN'T -- NO, I THINK -- I'M TRYING TO THINK. I

 

 

THINK WE STARTED -- THE WAY I STARTEE) THAT WAS,

 

 

ESSENTIALLY, CHRIS CRAFT AND I, WE DID OUR -- SORT

 

 

OF WHAT I CALL OUR REGIONAL SURVEY. WE ACTUALLY

TOOK PLOTS IN VARIOUS PLACES, IN 2 A14D IN 3, AND

LOOKED AT VEGETATION AND LOOKED AT SOME SOIL. SO,

 

 

WE HAD SORT OF A VIEW. WE WERE IN ALLIGATOR ALLEY

 

 

AND WE WERE DOWN AT THE TWELVE STRUCTURES, AND WE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 354

 

 

 

 

WERE NEAR THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND WE WERE IN THE

CENTER OF 2A, AND SO WE LANDED AND SAMPLED AT A

 

 

VARIETY OF PLACES. I LOOKED AT STEVE DAVIS' --

 

 

SOME EARLY REPORTS. I LOOKED AT DISTRICT REPORTS.

 

 

I LOOKED AT SOME AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS, THAT I

 

 

REMEMBER. THEN I TOOK A SERIES OF FLIGHTS ON THE

 

 

GROUND -- DROPPED IN ON THE GROUND, LOOKED AT

 

 

THAT. AND THEN I ESTABLISHED THE GRADIENT.

 

 

Q. YOU, PERSONALLY?

 

 

A. I, PERSONALLY.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WE'LL GET INTO THAT LATER; I DON'T WANT TO

 

 

DO THAT NOW.

 

 

A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT I ESTABLISHED EVERY SINGLE

 

 

POINT, BUT I PERSONALLY LAID IT OUT, AND THEN

 

 

DID -- I CAN'T REMEMBER. I DON'T -- I DIDNFT KEEP

 

 

FIELD NOTES ON THAT, BUT I THINK SOMEBODY -- YOU

 

 

HAVE SOME OF MY RECORDS, ACTUALLY. I'VE NEVER

 

 

GONE BACK AND COUNTED. MY GRAD STUDENTS MAY ARGUE

 

 

THAT I DISAPPEARED ON ONE OR TWO OF THOSE

 

 

LOCATIONS, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER.

 

 

OKAY. IN DETERMINING YOUR TWO TO THREE PERCENT

 

 

(2% TO 3%) OF THE AREA THAT HAS SUSTAINED HARM OR

 

 

DAMAGE, WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU USING, WHAT DATA ARE

 

 

YOU USING?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 355

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. WHAT DATA AM I USING IN TERMS OF PROJECTING TWO OR

 

 

THREE PERCENT (2% OR 3%)?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. IT'S ONLY A -- AS I SAID, I USED, I THINK, SOME

 

 

AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS; I DID SOME GROUND TRUTHING; I

 

 

USED---

 

 

Q. WERE THE AERIAL PHOTOS PRODUCED TO THE UNITED

 

 

STATES AMONG YOUR EVERGLADES DOCUMENT?

 

 

A. SOME OF THEM WERE. I THINK THERE ARE SOME JUST

 

 

GENERAL AND CLASSIFIED LANDSAT PHOTOS THAT ARE IN

 

 

THERE.

 

 

Q. DID YOU JUST RUN A LITTLE EIGHT BY TEN BLACK AND

 

 

WHITES, THEY WERE REDUCED TO? CAUSE I CERTAINLY

 

 

DIDN'T GET ANY COLOR REPRODUCTIONS.

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK THERE'S SOME COLORED ONES IN THERE.

 

 

THERE MAY BE SOME COLOR SLIDES IN THERE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AMONG YOUR COLORED SLIDES, THERE MIGHT

 

 

BE---

 

 

A. THERE MAY BE SOME IN THERE. BUT THERE ARE ALSO

 

 

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE -- THE ERIM SLIDES.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T HAVE THE ERIM

 

 

SLIDES; THOSE WERE PRIVILEGED, 'IS THAT

 

 

WHAT -- THOSE WERE HELD BACK, MR. BURGESS?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 356

 

 

MR. BURGESS: YES. I BELIEVE THEREFS

 

 

FIVE OR SIX.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU HAVE NOT --

 

 

YOU HAVEN'T DECIDED WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO

 

 

USE THOSE OR NOT, OR YOU'RE NOT USING THEM,

 

 

OR---

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK WE'VE

 

 

DECIDED. I'LL REEXAMINE THAT IN LIGHT

 

 

OF HIS TESTIMONY WITH RESPECT TO HAVING

 

 

REVIEWED THOSE SLIDES IN ADDITION TO OTHERS

 

 

TO SUPPORT HIS TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO

 

 

13%) FIGURE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

(BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE TWO TO

 

 

THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) FIGURE, WHEN YOU'RE

 

 

LOOKING AT A LANDSAT IMAGE, WHAT STANDARD ARE YOU

 

 

USING TO DETERMINE THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO

 

 

19%) AREA THAT'S HARMED OR DAMAGED?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

I DON'T BELIEVE THIS WITNESS HAS SAID

 

 

THAT THERE WAS HARM OR DAMAGE. I THINK

 

 

HE SAID THERE WERE AREAS WHERE THERE WAS

 

 

SOME BENEFITS, AND THERE WERE SOME

 

 

CHANGES.

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 357

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YES, HE DID SAY BENEFITS,

 

 

MR. GREEN, I WAS GOING TO ASK HIM ABOUT --

 

 

MR. GREEN: WELL, I -- AND, AGAIN ---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- THE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF

 

 

IT.

 

 

MR. GREEN: SURE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I"M VERY INTERESTED IN HOW

 

 

THESE AREAS HAVE POSITIVELY BENEFITED FROM

 

 

THIS.

 

 

MR. GREEN: BUT MY POINT IS, HE NEVER

 

 

USED THE WORDS HARMED OR DAMAGED; YOU DID.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: HE DIDN,T OBIJECT TO THEM

 

 

EITHER, WHEN HE ANSWERED THE QUESTION

 

 

PREVIOUSLY.

 

 

MR. GREEN: NO, BUT I DID.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I REMEMBER.

 

 

MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.

 

 

WITNESS: I'M SORRY. WHERE ARE WE

 

 

NOW?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) HAVE WE IMPROVED TWO TO THREE

 

 

PERCENT OF THE EVERGLADES, DR. RICHARDSON, IS THAT

 

 

YOUR OPINION, THAT TWO TO THREE PERCENT OF THE

 

 

TOTAL EVERGLADES IS NOW BETTER BECAUSE OF THIRTY

 

 

YEARS OF EAA RUNOFF?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 358

 

 

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT.

 

 

Q. I DON'T THINK YOU DID EITHER. ARE TWO TO THREE

 

 

PERCENT (2% TO 3%) AFFECTED AS FUNCTIONING

 

 

EVERGLADES?

 

 

A. FUNCTIONING EVERGLADES -- I THINK THI-,Y'RE STILL

 

 

FUNCTIONING AS PART OF THE EVERGLADES, IF YOU'RE

 

 

ASKING THAT QUESTION, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT -- THEN WHAT IS YOUR

 

 

STANDARD FOR TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)? TWO

 

 

TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) ARE WHAT?

 

 

A. THE BASIS FOR THAT WOULD BE PRIMARILNF---

 

 

Q. WHAT ARE THEY? MY QUESTION IS, WHAT ARE TWO TO

 

 

THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)? YOU'VE PLACED THEM IN A

 

 

DIFFERENT CATEGORY FROM OTHER EVERGLADES.

 

 

A. WELL, PRIMARILY, THE VEGETATION, OR ON SOME OF

 

 

THE LANDSAT PHOTOS YOU'VE SEEN THE COLOR INFRARED,

 

 

OR SOME OF THE ERIM PHOTOS HAVE USED THE DIFFERENT

 

 

SYSTEM TO BASICALLY -- WITH GROUND TRUTHING

 

 

BASICALLY -- CATEGORIZE VEGETATION TYPES, WHICH IS

 

 

TYPICALLY DONE WITH REMOTE SENSING, SO---

 

 

Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT. WHAT ARE THEY, THOUGH? I KNOW

 

 

THERE'S VEGETATION THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES.

 

 

WHAT IS THIS VEGETATION?

 

 

 

 

A. WELL, PRIMARILY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN AREA THAT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 359

 

 

 

 

IS PRIMARILY SHIFTED INTO CATTAIL AREAS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HAVE THEY LOST HABITAT VALUE?

 

 

A. THAT'S -- I THINK OUR REPORTS FROM THAT, I THINK

 

 

YOU WILL -- YOU DEPOSED DR. RADER. 'I THINK WE'VE

 

 

LOOKED AT IN TERMS OF SOME TROPHIC LEVEL DYNAMICS.

 

 

IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THERE WAS BEE14 DRAMATIC

 

 

SHIFTS FROM, LET'S SAY, SAWGRASS TO CATTAIL,

 

 

BECAUSE THEY -- YOU KNOW, THE EVERGLADES IS A VERY

 

 

HARSH ENVIRONMENT. IT'S AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT

 

 

PLACE TO MAKE A LIVING. AND AS I MENTIONED TO

 

 

YOU, PHOSPHORUS IS A LIMITING NUTRIENT AND SO IT

 

 

ACTUALLY ENDS UP BEING A SUBSIDY FOR SYSTEMS THAT

 

 

IT'S ADDED TO, UP TO A POINT. AND SC) YOU END UP

 

 

WITH INCREASES IN MANY THINGS. IN FACT, I THINK

 

 

WE'VE REPORTED -- DR. RADER -- I THINK, SIX OR

 

 

SEVEN TIMES INVERTEBRATES AND FISH.

 

 

Q. THESE ARE IN OPEN WATER ENRICHED AREAS, ISN'T THAT

 

 

ACCURATE, DR. RICHARDSON? DR. RADER'S WORK WAS

 

 

DONE IN OPEN WATER---

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. --- ENRICHED AREAS?

 

 

A. YES.

 

 

Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THIS TWO TO THREE

 

 

PERCENT (2% TO 3%) OF THE TOTAL EVERGLADES THAT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 360

 

 

 

 

YOU'RE TESTIFYING IS OPEN WATER ENRICHED AREA?

 

 

A. I WOULDN'T KNOW THE PERCENTAGE. I DON'T KNOW THE

 

 

PERCENTAGE OF IT OFFHAND. I HAVENFT GROUND

 

 

TRUTHED THE PERCENTAGE OF THAT.

 

 

Q. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT IT IS SOME INFINITESIMAL

 

 

FRAGMENT?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECTION.

 

 

A. IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OPEN WATER.

 

 

I MEAN, THERE'S STANDING WATER THERE. ARE YOU

 

 

TALKING ABOUT OPEN BODIES OF CLEAR WATER, IS THAT

 

 

WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO?

 

 

Q. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE AREAS THAT DR. RADER DID HIS

 

 

WORK IN.

 

 

A. WELL, HE DID -- DR. RADER DID WORK IN CATTAIL, IN

 

 

SAWGRASS, AND IN THE SLOUGHS.

 

 

Q. BUT HE DID THEM IN OPEN WATER. HE HAS TESTIFIED

 

 

OVER AND OVER IN HIS DEPOSITION, DR. RICHARDSON,

 

 

THAT THEY WERE IN OPEN WATER ENRICHED SITES,

 

 

AND---

 

 

A. RIGHT. WELL, HE'S -- HE'S DONE -- TO MY

 

 

KNOWLEDGE, HE HAS DONE SOME IN CATTAIL AND

 

 

SAWGRASS, TOO. BUT IF HE'S TESTIFIED HE'S DONE

 

 

MOSTLY IN OPEN WATER, THAT'S FINE.

 

 

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 361

 

 

 

 

PERCENTAGE OF THE TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)

THAT THOSE -- THOSE AREAS ARE?

 

 

A. I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT FIGURE, NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WILL YOU AGREE THAT IT IS SOME VERY SMALL

 

 

FRACTION OF THE ENRICHED AREA?

 

 

A. I WOULD AGREE IT'S A SMALL FRACTION.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT POSITIVE BENEFITS,

 

 

YOU ARE REALLY REFERRING TO THE INCREASED

 

 

MACROINVERTEBRATES THAT DR. RADER FOUND IN THESE

 

 

ENRICHED SITES, ARE YOU NOT?

 

 

A. WELL, THAT'S ONE ASPECT. BUT INCREASED

 

 

PRODUCTION, INCREASED CARBON STORAGE---

 

 

Q. YOU CONSIDER THAT A BENEFIT TO AN OLIGOTROPHIC

 

 

SYSTEM?

 

 

A. INCREASED CARBON STORAGE, I CONSIDER A BENEFIT.

 

 

ESPECIALLY AS AN ECOLOGIST FOR ALL THE GLOBAL C02

 

 

PROBLEMS WE HAVE, I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT

 

 

ASPECT. I THINK IT'S -- THOSE AREAS HAVE BEEN

 

 

FUNCTIONING AS AN -- THERE'S A CERTAIN INCREASE IN

 

 

NUTRIENT STORAGE, I THINK. SO, THEY'VE BEEN USING

 

 

THIS -- THEY HAVE A BENEFIT THERE.

 

 

Q. IS IT YOUR RECOMMENDATION TO THE FEDERAL

 

 

GOVERNMENT THAT THEY'VE GOT THIS ALL WRONG, AND

 

 

THAT WE OUGHT TO ENCOURAGE THE EAA TO SEND MORE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 362

 

 

 

 

NUTRIENT RUNOFF INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION

 

 

AREAS?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM

 

 

OF THE QUESTION.

 

 

A. I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE SUGGESTED THAT. I THINK I

 

 

HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY SHOULD CONSIDER BMP'S,

 

 

AND THAT PHOSPHORUS SHOULD BE REDUCED WHERE IT

 

 

CAN BE REDUCED.

 

 

Q. WHY?

 

 

A. BECAUSE I THINK IN TERMS OF THE EVERGLADES ITSELF,

 

 

THE PHOSPHORUS ITSELF PROBABLY SHOULD BE KEPT TO A

 

 

MINIMAL IN THAT STATE IF THE GOAL IS TO TRY TO

 

 

RESTORE, I GUESS, SOME OF THOSE AREAS.

 

 

Q. RESTORE THEM INTO WHAT?

 

 

A. WELL, THAT IS THE QUESTION, RESTORE THEM TO

 

 

WHAT.

 

 

Q. WELL, WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION?

 

 

A. WELL, TRY TO RESTORE THEM BACK TO SOME COMPONENT

 

 

OF WHAT WAS THERE. IN SOME PLACES, .-IT WAS A

 

 

HABITAT THAT HAS BEEN TOTALLY DESTROYED BY THE

 

 

FEDERAL GOVERNMENT -- WILLOW HABITATS, TREE

 

 

ISLANDS.

 

 

THIS IS THE HYDROLOGY ISSUE THAT YOU'RE REFERRING

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 363

 

 

TO?

 

 

A. RIGHT.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES). SO, IS IT YOUR RECOMMENDATION TO

 

 

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IT RIP OUT THE CENTRAL

 

 

AND SOUTHERN FLORIDA FLIGHT CONTROL PROJECT?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. I THINK THE

 

 

FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OUGHT TO SERIOUSLY CONSIDER

 

 

IF THEY WANT TO GIVE THE PUBLIC A FAIR VIEW OF

 

 

HOW THEY WANT TO MAINTAIN THE EVERGLADES, TO

 

 

LOOK AT HOW WATER IS DISTRIBUTED IN SOUTH

 

 

FLORIDA.

 

 

SO, YOUR RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE THE FEDERAL

 

 

GOVERNMENT COMMISSION RESEARCH, OR A STUDY OF HOW

 

 

TO IMPROVE THE HYDROLOGY?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE THEY COULD DO THAT. I BELIEVE THEY

 

 

COULD LOOK AT CERTAIN COMPONENTS OF THE DRAINAGE

 

 

SYSTEM. AND I BELIEVE THEY COULD STOP PUMPING

 

 

MASSIVE VOLUMES OF WATER TO THE GULF AND TO THE

 

 

ATLANTIC.

 

 

Q. WOULD YOU RECOMMEND STORING IT IN THE LAKE, IS

 

 

THAT YOUR RECOMMENDATION?

 

 

A. I HAVE -- I HAVEN'T FORMULATED ALL MY FINAL

 

 

OPINIONS AS TO HOW I WOULD LIKE TO SEE -- I'M

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 364

 

 

 

 

THINKING ABOUT THAT AS A LANDSCAPE VIEW OF HOW

 

 

SOUTH FLORIDA SHOULD BE TREATED. BUT WATER IS

 

 

FIRST AND FOREMOST THE REAL MAJOR ISSUE, THE

 

 

DISTRIBUTION AND ALLOCATION OF WATER. AND IT'S MY

 

 

OPINION THAT THE KISSIMMEE AND LAKE OKEECHOBEE

 

 

AND THE EVERGLADES HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT ON A

 

 

LANDSCAPE VIEW. AND, AS I'VE SAID BEFORE

 

 

PUBLICLY, I THINK IT'S TRUE, PEOPLE HAVE MANAGED

 

 

WATER IN SOUTH FLORIDA FOR EVERYTHING BUT THE

 

 

EVERGLADES. SO, THEY HAVE BEEN MANAGING IT FOR --

 

 

WHICH HAS BEEN FEDERALLY MANDATED. THAT HAS BEEN

 

 

THE FEDERAL MANDATE. I'M NOT BLAMING ANYONE FOR

 

 

NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW, BUT I'M NOT SAYING ONE CAN

 

 

WAKE UP ONE MORNING AND LOOK AT -- SEE THE

 

 

EVERGLADES IN SOME STATE OF WATER STRESS AND THEN

 

 

BE SURPRISED.

 

 

Q. IF I'M HEARING YOU CORRECTLY, DR. RICHARDSON, IT

 

 

SOUNDS AS THOUGH YOU INTEND FOR TRIAL -- AND I

 

 

BELIEVE YOU DID SAY YESTERDAY THAT YOU ARE FORMING

 

 

A. A LANDSCAPE VIEW OF THIS ENTIRE SYSTEM AND WILL

 

 

TESTIFY AS TO THAT. IS THAT ACCURATE?

 

 

A. I MAY DO THAT.

 

 

Q. AND YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD HAVE THIS READY IN

 

 

A MONTH? DID YOU GIVE ME A TIME FRAME WHEN YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 365

 

 

 

 

THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE THIS FINAL OPINION

 

 

READY?

 

 

A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I DID.

 

 

Q. WELL, WHEN DO YOU THINK YOUFRE GOING TO HAVE IT

 

 

READY?

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE. IT DEPENDS UPON HOW MUCH

 

 

INFORMATION AND HOW MUCH TIME I CAN SPEND ON THIS;

 

 

BUT MAYBE NINE MONTHS, SIX MONTHS, SOMETHING LIKE

 

 

THAT, I WOULD HAVE.

 

 

Q. AND WHICH OF YOUR EXPERIMENTS WILL YOU BE RELYING

 

 

UPON TO HELP FORM THIS VIEW THAT HAS HYDROLOGIC

 

 

DATA IN IT?

 

 

A. AS I THINK I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, A LARGE PORTION

 

 

OF THIS DATA EXISTS IN THE DATABANKS OF THE

 

 

FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE GOVERNMENTS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, JUST A COUPLE OF CLEANUP

 

 

QUESTIONS ON WHAT WE HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT. WHAT

 

 

WAS THE CRITERIA YOU USED IN INTERPRETING THE

 

 

LANDSAT IMAGES TO IDENTIFY THESE AREAS WITH

 

 

CATTAIL? WAS THERE A PERCENTAGE OF CATTAIL THAT

 

 

IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE A PORTION OF THAT WAS RELATED TO THE

 

 

LARSON REPORT. WE USED -- I DID NOT PERSONALLY DO

 

 

THAT SURVEY. I WENT TO THOSE AREAS -- SOME OF

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 366

 

 

 

 

THOSE AREAS, I BELIEVE, ONCE OR TWICE. I WAS

 

 

ACTUALLY -- LARSON MAY HAVE BEEN WITH ME. WE WERE

 

 

IN THE SAME AREAS. I WAS SETTING UP TRANSECTS.

 

 

SO, WE KNEW WE WERE DETERMINING THE SAME AREAS,

 

 

BUT I DID NOT DO THE INTERPRETATION OF THE

 

 

MAPPING.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. AND I DID NOT DO THE SURVEYS, OTHER THAN THE

 

 

SURVEYS THAT I MENTIONED WE HAVE ONGOING, WHICH I

 

 

HAVE NOT MAPPED. AND SO, I RELIED ON THE

 

 

INFORMATION FROM LARSON. I ALSO RELIED ON SOME

 

 

DATA FROM THE DISTRICT. AND I RELIED ON SOME

 

 

INFORMATION FROM ERIM. I PERSONALLY DID NOT SIT

 

 

AND DO A DATABASE COMPARISON. SO, THOSE NUMBERS

 

 

I'M GIVING YOU ARE BALLPARK FIGURES.

 

 

I'M REALLY CONFUSED, AND MAYBE IT'S JUST, YOU

 

 

KNOW, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WELL ENOUGH. I CAN

 

 

UNDERSTAND THAT MR. LARSON SAID THIS AREA IS FIFTY

 

 

PERCENT (50%) CATTAIL, OKAY?

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. I THINK HIS MAPS MAY INDICATE SOME---

 

 

A. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

Q. --- PERCENTAGES, I CAN'T REMEMBER. I KNOW HE

 

 

LISTED---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 367

 

 

A. RIGHT.

 

 

Q. --- VEGETATION TYPES.

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. WHEN WOULD YOU COUNT IT AS BEING INCLUDED IN THIS

 

 

TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%)?

 

 

A. PROBABLY IF IT WAS FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE.

 

 

Q. FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE. BUT YOU WOULD

 

 

CONSIDER UP TO FIFTY PERCENT (50%) AN UNIMPACTED

 

 

EVERGLADES AREA?

 

 

MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

A. I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU MEAN BY

 

 

UNIMPACTED. I MEAN, IT COULD BE -- I'M

 

 

THINKING -- I'M TRYING TO THINK OF THE AREA SOUTH

 

 

OF THE 2A, I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT AS AN IMPACTED

 

 

AREA. I BELIEVE THE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MORE

 

 

WAS DEFINED AS A MONOCULTURE -- MORE IN THE

 

 

MONOCULTURE STATE. I THINK THAT WAS THE

 

 

DEFINITIONS WE MAY HAVE USED AT THAT TIME. AND,

 

 

THEN, THE BELOW THE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) WAS JUST

 

 

AN AREA THAT HAD BEEN IMPACTED. SO, I THINK THAT

 

 

TOTAL AREA WAS LIKE -- AND I'M ONLY GIVING YOU THE

 

 

SPECIFICS OF THE NUMBERS THAT I CAN REMEMBER---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- IT MAY HAVE BEEN FIVE THOUSAND ACRES -- WELL,

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 368

 

 

 

 

ABOVE FIFTY PERCENT (50%) OR MAYBE MORE OF THAT

 

 

MONOCULTURE AREA---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- AND THEN BELOW THAT NUMBER, THERE WAS ANOTHER

 

 

RANGE MAYBE OF THE IMPACTED AREA -- AND I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER, IT MAY HAVE BEEN AN ADDITIONAL -- I JUST

 

 

DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS, LIKE, SEVENTEEN THOUSAND,

 

 

FIFTEEN THOUSAND, SIXTEEN THOUSAND. I CAN'T

 

 

REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER. SO---

 

 

Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING YOU BELIEVE YOU INCLUDED BOTH OF

 

 

THOSE?

 

 

A. I BELIEVE BOTH OF THOSE WERE INCLUDED, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE POSITIVE

 

 

BENEFITS TO THAT FIVE THOUSAND MONOCIJLTURE -- FIVE

 

 

THOUSAND ACRES OF CATTAIL MONOCULTURE?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK -- I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE

 

 

IT TO ALL BE NEGATIVE. I THINK SOMEHOW IF YOU

 

 

PULL TOGETHER A NUMBER OF ECOLOGISTS AROUND THE

 

 

COUNTRY, YOU WOULD NOT FIND IT -- I WOULD BE HARD

 

 

PRESSED TO THINK SOMEONE WOULD CONSIDER EVERY

 

 

ASPECT OF CATTAIL. IT IS NOT THE MOST EVIL

 

 

SPECIES; IT'S A VERY COMMON WETLAND PLANT.

 

 

Q. WELL, SURE. SURE.

 

 

A. SO, IT IS NOT -- WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 369

 

 

 

 

KNOW, THE MOST POISONOUS, TOXIC ORGANISM ON THE

 

 

FACE OF THE EARTH. IT IS -- IT IS A---

 

 

Q. IS THAT OUR STANDARD? IS THAT THE STANDARD WE

 

 

WOULD USE IN MAINTAINING BIOTIC DIVERSITY AND --

 

 

WHAT ARE THE STANDARDS? YOU'VE EXPRESSED BIOTIC

 

 

DIVERSITY IN ECOSYSTEM FUNCTIONING FOR THE

 

 

EVERGLADES. WOULD THAT BE OUR STANDARD?

 

 

A. WELL, THE CATTAILS ARE PERFORMING A FUNCTION.

 

 

THEY'RE PERFORMING MANY OF THE SAME FUNCTIONS.

 

 

THEY EXISTED IN THE EVERGLADES. THERE'S SOME

 

 

HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FROM MY FORMER PROFESSOR, JOHN

 

 

HENRY DAVIS, WHEN HE DID HIS EARLY MAPS, THERE MAY

 

 

HAVE BEEN SOME AREAS -- LARGE AREAS. THERE WAS

 

 

ONE AREA THAT'S -- I DON'T KNOW -- T@EN, FIFTEEN

 

 

THOUSAND ACRES THAT MAY -- MAY HAVE BEEN -- IN

 

 

FACT, IT'S LISTED AS A CATTAIL FERN AREA. THESE

 

 

AREAS COULD EXIST. I'M NOT SURE WHY THAT ONE

 

 

EXISTED. IT WASN'T RELATED TO AGRICULTURE, AS FAR

 

 

AS I CAN TELL. IT MAY HAVE BEEN DUE TO A NUMBER

 

 

OF REASONS, BUT THIS IS NOT -- IF YOU WENT BACK

 

 

THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, IT MAY VERY WELL BE THAT

CATTAILS WERE ONE OF THE DOMINATE SPECIES IN SOME

 

 

OF THE AREAS. I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IS THE ISSUE, AS YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 370

 

 

 

 

SEE IT, ONE OF HOW MUCH CATTAIL MONOCULTURE OR

 

 

HEAVILY CATTAIL MIX EVERGLADES THE STATE OF

 

 

FLORIDA WISHES TO MAINTAIN AND HOW MUCH

 

 

OLIOGOTROPHIC FAIRLY NON-CATTAIL EVERGLADES THE

 

 

STATE OF FLORIDA WISHES TO MAINTAIN?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF --

 

 

I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT'S A QUESTION, BUT I

 

 

OBJECT TO IT.

 

 

A. DO I SEE THAT AS THE ISSUE?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. IT COULD BE THE ISSUE FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA. I

 

 

MEAN, IT'S A POSSIBILITY FOR SURE.

 

 

Q. DO YOU EVER THINK OF IT IN THOSE TERMS? I MEAN,

 

 

YOU'VE GOT THIS BIG EXPANSE OF -- QUOTE --

 

 

"EVERGLADES" OUT THERE, AND---

 

 

A. WELL, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL

 

 

-- WHEN MY ORIGINAL MEETINGS WERE, WAS THE FACT

 

 

THAT IT WAS THE PUBLIC'S PERCEPTION AND MANY

 

 

INDIVIDUAL'S PERCEPTIONS THAT THE EVERGLADES WAS

 

 

TURNING INTO A GIANT CATTAIL MARSH, AND THERE WAS

 

 

GREAT CONCERN. AND IF IT WAS TURNING INTO A GIANT

 

 

CATTAIL MARSH, I THINK THERE WOULD BE: SOME REALM

 

 

FOR CONCERN.

 

 

Q. BUT IF IT HAS POSITIVE BENEFITS, WHY IS THERE A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 371

 

 

 

 

REALM FOR CONCERN?

 

 

A. WELL, THERE -- I'M SURE -- I THINK IN TERMS OF

 

 

MAGNITUDE -- AGAIN, THIS IS VALUE JUDGMENTS -- BUT

 

 

I'M SURE, MYSELF INCLUDED, YOU'D LIKE TO MAINTAIN

 

 

SOME OF THE NATIVE SPECIES THAT EXIST IN THE

 

 

EVERGLADES, AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY REASONABLE

 

 

GOAL FOR ESPECIALLY PARK AND PRESERVES, AND SO ONE

 

 

WOULD DO SO---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- AND THE QUESTION RELATES TO MAGNITUDE. SO, AS

 

 

I WAS TELLING YOU EARLIERF WE TOOK A LOOK AT, AND

 

 

I TRIED TO GET AN ESTIMATE. AND, BASICALLY, I

 

 

THINK WE'RE SPENDING A LOT OF TIME ON THIS

 

 

PARTICULAR ISSUE, WHICH IS FINE, BUT I THINK THE

 

 

CATTAIL ISSUE IS A MINOR PROBLEM IN THE

 

 

EVERGLADES. I DON'T THINK IT -- YOU MAY HAVE

 

 

NOTICED, OR YOU WILL NOTICE, I GUESS,, IF YOU GO

 

 

THROUGH SOME OF MY DOCUMENTS, THAT WAS AN EARLY

 

 

FOCUS. BUT IT'S PROBABLY -- YOU KNOW, I THINK

 

 

IT'S BEEN WAY OVERBLOWN. I THINK IT'S NOT A MAJOR

 

 

PROBLEM; IT IS A LOCALIZED PROBLEM. AND THE

 

 

PROBLEM MAY BE THAT IF IT'S THE CATTAILS ARE ONLY

 

 

IN YOUR -- IF YOU ONLY HAVE FIVE SQUARE FEET, AND

 

 

THE CATTAILS ARE IN YOUR FIVE SQUARE FEET, AND YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 372

 

 

 

 

DON'T WANT THEM THERE, THAT MAY BE A PROBLEM. BUT

 

 

IN THE MAGNITUDE OF THE WHOLE EVERGLADES ISSUE, I

 

 

THINK IT'S A VERY MINOR PROBLEM.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT MAGNITUDE OF CHANGE WOULD YOU BELIEVE

 

 

MOVED OUT OF THIS MINOR PROBLEM CATE(;ORY?

 

 

A. WELL, I THINK WHEN YOU DIVERT HALF THE WATER

 

 

SUPPLY FOR SOUTH FLORIDA, YOU'VE MOVED INTO A

 

 

MAJOR CATEGORY. WHEN YOU PUMP HALF THE WATER TO

 

 

THE OCEAN AND HALF TO THE GULF OF MEXICO

 

 

CONTINUALLY SINCE THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, AND PUT

 

 

IN FIFTEEN HUNDRED MILES OF CANALS, IF YOUR GOAL

 

 

IS TO MAINTAIN ANY RESEMBLANCE OF THE EVERGLADES,

 

 

YOU HAVE CREATED A CATASTROPHIC CHANGE TO THE

 

 

SYSTEM.

 

 

Q. BUT WHAT MAGNITUDE OF CHANGE IN THE EVERGLADES

 

 

WOULD MOVE BEYOND THIS MINOR CONCERN THAT YOU SEE

 

 

AS THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT PROBLEM? LET ME

 

 

MAKE --- LET ME GET SOMETHING CLEAR----

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT---

 

 

Q. --- DR. RICHARDSON, LET ME MOVE -- I'LL COME BACK

 

 

TO THAT QUESTION. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DO YOU SEE

 

 

THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT PROBLEM TO THE EVERGLADES

 

 

AS THE SAME THING AS THE CATTAIL PROBLEM? ARE

 

 

THEY THE SAME? ARE YOU DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 373

 

 

THOSE TWO?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM

 

 

OF THE QUESTION.

 

 

A. I DON'T THINK THEY GO TOTALLY HAND IN HAND. I

 

 

THINK THERE'S A DELAY FACTOR. I THINK THERE --

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, AS I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, TO

SEPARATE WATER FROM PHOSPHORUS. AND SO,

 

 

THEREFORE -- AND HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE RESEARCH

 

 

WILL POINT THIS OUT. I AM NOT SURE IF YOU

 

 

STRICTLY ADD -- WELL, LET'S DO IT IN REVERSE. IF

 

 

YOU STOP THE FLOW OF -- IF YOU JUST PUT WATER

 

 

INTO, LET'S SAY, WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, AND

 

 

TOOK OUT, LET'S SAY, MOST OF THE PHOSPHORUS, WHAT

 

 

WOULD HAPPEN TO THAT PARTICULAR SYSTI;,M? I THINK

 

 

IT WOULD STAY PRETTY MUCH AS IT IS FOR A VERY LONG

 

 

TIME. IF YOU KEPT THE WATER REGIME WITHIN

 

 

WITHIN THE BOUNDS AS IT IS NOW.

 

 

SO, I THINK IF YOU ADDED NUTRIE14TS AND KEPT

 

 

IT WITHIN SOME STABLE COMPONENT WHERE IT IS, IT

 

 

WOULD STAY; IT MAY CHANGE SLIGHTLY.

 

 

SO, WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IN THAT PARTICULAR

 

 

COMPONENT, IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE OUT THAT ONCE

 

 

YOU -- ONCE THE SYSTE M IS IN THAT PARTICULAR

 

 

STATE. AND, SO, THESE DYNAMICS -- THERE'S A

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 374

 

 

 

 

CONFUSION AS TO WHAT HAPPENS IN A SYSTEM, AND WHAT

 

 

YOU SEE IS THERE TODAY IS THE RESULT OF WHO GOT

 

 

THERE FIRST AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS. AND HOW

 

 

YOU ALTER THAT -- THOSE CONDITIONS -- CAN AFFECT

 

 

WHAT GOES. BUT WHAT REALLY IS IMPORTANT IS WHO

 

 

GOT THERE FIRST.

 

 

Q. BUT YOU'RE TELLING ME IT'S REALLY PRETTY HARD TO

 

 

FIGURE OUT WHO GOT THERE FIRST?

 

 

A. WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON WHEN YOU---

 

 

Q. DIDN'T YOU TELL ME YESTERDAY YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW

 

 

IF WE CAN SEPARATE OUT THE HYDROLOGY FROM THE

 

 

NUTRIENTS?

 

 

A. I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIES; WHICH SPECIES GOT THERE

 

 

FIRST.

 

 

Q. OH, OH, WHICH SPECIES GOT THERE FIRST. OKAY. DO

 

 

YOU SEE THE VALUE OF THOSE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE

 

 

AREAS FOR HABITAT AS OF EQUAL VALUE AS THE, LET'S

 

 

SAY, THE AREAS AT THE BOTTOM OF, PERHAPS, 2A OR

 

 

INTO 3A, EQUAL HABITAT VALUE?

 

 

A. THEY ARE PROBABLY OF EQUAL HABITAT VALUE TO THE

 

 

SAWGRASS.

 

 

Q. WHERE THE SAWGRASS HAS BEEN CROWDED OUT IN THE

 

 

NORTHERN END, IT'S OF EQUAL HABITAT VALUE?

 

 

A. I DON'T THINK THAT WAS YOUR QUESTION TO ME. I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 375

 

 

 

 

THOUGHT YOU SAID DID I SEE THE HABITAT VALUE OF

 

 

THE CATTAILS IN THE NORTH AS EQUAL TO THE HABITAT

 

 

VALUES IN THE SOUTH.

 

 

Q. RIGHT. SO, YOU'RE SAYING -- OH, AS FAR AS -- AS

 

 

FAR AS BIRDS AND FISH AND OTHER CREATURES, YOU'RE

 

 

SAYING THAT A CATTAIL MONOCULTURE IS OF EQUAL

 

 

HABITAT VALUE---

 

 

A. WELL---

 

 

Q. --- AS SAWGRASS MONOCULTURE?

 

 

A. --- I HAVEN'T ANALYZED THE CATTAIL COMPLETELY IN

 

 

THAT. I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE TO TALK TO DR. RADER

 

 

IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE INVERTEBRATE AND FISH

 

 

COMPONENTS TO GET HIS EXPERT OPINION ON THAT.

 

 

I'M SIMPLY TELLING YOU THAT, IN FACT, FROM MY

 

 

EXPERIENCE DOWN THERE LOOKING AT CATTAIL AND

 

 

LOOKING AT SAWGRASS, SAWGRASS IS NO PLEASANT

 

 

SPECIES TO WORK WITH, OR TRY TO FORAGE ON, OR TRY

 

 

TO SURVIVE WITH. AND, SO, I SEE -- NOR AM I

 

 

SUGGESTING THAT I WANT THE ENTIRE EVERGLADES TO BE

 

 

CATTAIL, BY ANY MEANS. BUT I'M SIMPLY SAYING THAT

 

 

I DON'T THINK ONE CAN EQUATE CATTAIL AS BEING ALL

 

 

BAD, AND SAWGRASS BEING ALL GOOD.

 

 

Q. HAS ANYONE DONE THAT?

 

 

A. NO. BUT I'M SAYING THAT.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 376

 

 

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. OKAY, DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE

 

 

BETWEEN THE WAY CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS -- OR ARE YOU

 

 

AWARE OF OTHER SCIENTISTS HAVING FOUND A

 

 

DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY THEY APPEAR TO SUCCEED IN

 

 

RELATION TO THE OPEN WATER AREAS? DO YOU

 

 

UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?

 

 

A. THERE ARE SEVERAL COMPONENTS, YES, RELATED TO

 

 

THAT. BUT, I MEAN, IT'S VERY COMPLEX. YOU CAN BE

 

 

TALKING ABOUT WATER DEPTH---

 

 

Q. NO, I'M TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE CATTAILS

 

 

ACTUALLY INVADING---

 

 

A. CORRECT---

 

 

Q. --- OR MOVING---

 

 

A. --- BUT THAT RELATES---

 

 

Q. --- INTO THE OPEN WATER SOUGHS.

 

 

A. THAT RELATES TO THE DEPTH OF WATER.

 

 

Q. RIGHT.

 

 

A. THAT RELATES TO WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THERE ARE

 

 

SPECIES ALREADY PRESENT. AND ITFS NEVER JUST A

 

 

ONE-WAY STREET. CATTAILS MAY INVADE A PARTICULAR

 

 

AREA, AND THEN THERE MAY BE A DROUGHT, OR THERE

 

 

MAY BE A FIRE, OR THERE MAY BE A FREEZE, AND THEY

 

 

MAY---

 

 

Q. RECEDE.

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 377

 

 

 

 

A. ---RECEDE, AND THEN THEY MAY COME BACK, AND SO

 

 

FORTH. THEYFRE A VERY AGGRESSIVE SPECIES.

 

 

THEY'RE AN OPPORTUNIST SPECIES. THEY HAVE A

 

 

DIFFERENT SORT OF ECOLOGICAL---

 

 

Q. HOW IS THAT RELATIONSHIP OF THE CATTAIL TO THE

 

 

DEPTH OF THE WATER; WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP?

 

 

A. WELL, CATTAIL SURVIVE BETTER IN DEEPER WATER, FOR

 

 

EXAMPLE, THAN SAWGRASS. SAWGRASS HAS DIFFICULTY

 

 

SURVIVING IN DEEPER WATER.

 

 

Q. WILL THE CATTAIL SURVIVE IN DEEPER WATER IF THERE

 

 

ARE VERY, VERY LIMITED NUTRIENTS?

 

 

A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT KIND OF VERY, VERY

 

 

LIMITED NUTRIENTS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. THEY DO

 

 

SURVIVE IN SOME AREAS WITH LOW NUTRIENTS. THEYFRE

 

 

NOT AS PRODUCTIVE AS SOME OF THE OTHER SPECIES

 

 

THAT CAN COME INTO THOSE AREAS. BUT, PRIMARILY,

 

 

IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW THEY BECOME ESTABLISHED.

 

 

Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, WHERE HAVE YOU FOUND

 

 

CATTAILS AND VERY LOW NUTRIENTS IN THE EVERGLADES?

 

 

AND I WANT TO GET THE NUMBERS OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER

LOW NUTRIENTS, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY---

 

 

A. SURE.

 

 

Q. --- AN ISSUE OF DEBATE BETWEEN US. BUT JUST WHAT

 

 

YOU WOULD CONSIDER VERY LOW NUMBERS, AND WHERE YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 378

 

 

 

 

WOULD FIND CATTAIL, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT

 

 

AREAS YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY EXIST IN THE

 

 

EVERGLADES.

 

 

A. WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2B.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. THAT'S THE---

 

 

Q. ALONG THE NORTHERN PORTION?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND IN WHAT MIX ARE THEY IN THE AREA THAT

 

 

YOU'RE REFERRING TO? THIS IS ON THE WESTERN, THE

 

 

EASTERN, THE MIDDLE, WHERE?

 

 

A. ABOUT IN THE MIDDLE.

 

 

Q. THE MIDDLE. OKAY. AND WHAT MIX DO YOU BELIEVE IS

 

 

CATTAIL, IS IT FIFTY, SIXTY?

 

 

A. NO, IT'S A SMALL PERCENTAGE. I'M NOT SURE. WE

 

 

ARE CURRENTLY ANALYZING SOME OF THAT DATA, AND IT

 

 

MAY BE -- I'M JUST GUESSING -- I DON'T KNOW --

 

 

FIVE PERCENT, TEN PERCENT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE THE NUTRIENT LEVELS IN, LET'S

 

 

SAY, SURFACE WATER?

 

 

A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS, WHAT

 

 

THEY ARE. GENERALLY IN THAT AREA WHEN WE HAVE

 

 

DONE THEM, THE WATER CONCENTRATIONS FOR -- ARE YOU

 

 

SAYING NUTRIENTS OR JUST---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 379

 

 

 

 

Q. JUST PHOSPHORUS.

 

 

A. PHOSPHORUS.

 

 

Q. YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR ME. I MEAN, THIS

 

 

IS YOUR AREA.

 

 

A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT WOULD BE FIFTEEN,

 

 

TWENTY -- MAYBE A LITTLE -- LESS PARTS PER

 

 

BILLION.

 

 

Q. OKAY. FIFTEEN TO TWENTY PARTS PER BILLION SURFACE

 

 

WATER. AND THE PORE WATER, DO YOU HAVE ANY

 

 

NUMBERS FOR THE PORE WATER?

 

 

A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK. I WOULD HAVE

 

 

TO -- I DON'T -- I DON'T HAVE THAT AT MY

 

 

FINGERTIPS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE DATA THAT WILL SUPPORT THIS?

 

 

A. YES, I DO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. HOW MUCH?

 

 

A. SEVERAL YEARS WORTH OF DATA.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ARE THERE ANY OTHER AREAS IN THE

 

 

EVERGLADES, THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF, WHERE YOU WOULD

 

 

SAY THAT THERE ARE LOW NUTRIENTS AND CATTAILS?

 

 

YOU'RE SAYING FIVE TO TEN PERCENT?

A. I HAVEN'T DONE -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, ACTUALLY

 

 

I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE KIND OF AN INTERESTING

 

 

FIRST LOOK TO BASICALLY DO THAT, AND TO LOOK AT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 380

 

 

 

 

CATTAILS AND LOOK AT THE NUTRIENTS AND TRY TO DO

 

 

THAT.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. BUT WHEN I MADE MY PRESENTATION -- MY FIRST

 

 

PRESENTATION TO THE EPD, TOM MacVICAR -- I THINK

 

 

THIS IS ON PUBLIC RECORD -- JUMPED ALL OVER ME

 

 

AND THIS PROPOSAL, BY SAYING THAT THE SOUTH

 

 

FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DID NOT CONSIDER

 

 

THE CATTAIL ISSUE A MAJOR ISSUE ANY MORE, AND THAT

 

 

THIS WAS -- THIS PROJECT WAS WEIGHED WAY TOO

 

 

HEAVILY TO LOOK AT CATTAILS, AND THAT THERE WERE

 

 

OTHER ISSUES ON THE TABLE. AND, AS YOU KNOW, HE

 

 

SITS -- HE SAT, AT THAT TIME, AS AN ADVISOR -- YOU

 

 

MAY NOT KNOW -- AS ADVISOR TO THAT EPD. AND ALSO

 

 

AT THAT TIME SUGGESTED THAT WE NOT DO ANY WORK

 

 

WHATSOEVER IN THE HOLEYLAND. AND, SO, OUR

 

 

ORIGINAL PROPOSAL WAS ACTUALLY SHIFTED BY THE

 

 

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT TO NOT

 

 

DO THAT. SO, WE -- AND SINCE I HAD SOME IDEA

 

 

THAT CATTAIL -- AND I HAD BEEN LOOKING AT SOME

 

 

OF THAT -- WAS NOT THE MAJOR ONE -- AND I MET

 

 

WITH WOODY AND TOM AND TALKED ABOUT THIS, I

 

 

GUESS, IN VERY GENERAL TERMS -- BUT THAT

 

 

MEETING SET THE TONE FOR REALLY REDUCING SORT OF

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 381

 

 

 

 

A SURVEY, IN A SENSE, OF THOSE ISSUES. SO, I

 

 

STOPPED IT.

 

 

Q. IT SEEMS THE VILLAIN IS SHIFTING AROUND THE TABLE

 

 

HERE.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: NO, THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN

 

 

ON YOUR SIDE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: SO YOU SAY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING TOTAL

 

 

PHOSPHORUS WHEN YOU SAID FIFTEEN TO TWENTY PPB.

 

 

ARE YOU TALKING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS FOR THIS AREA IN

 

 

2B, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. IN SURFACE WATERS?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS. I

 

 

DON'T KNOW -- I'M DOING THIS -- YOU HAVE OUR DATA

 

 

ON THIS; IT'S IN THE FILE SOMEWHERE. I---

 

 

Q. I THOUGHT THAT WAS ORTHOPHOSPHATE?

 

 

A. IT COULD VERY WELL BE. I JUST DON'T I DON'T

 

 

REMEMBER.

 

 

Q. WOULDN'T THAT MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, WHICH

 

 

TYPE OF PHOSPHORUS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?

 

 

A. NOT IN TERMS OF AVAILABILITY TO PLANTS. THE TOTAL

 

 

PHOSPHORUS IS KIND OF A WORTHLESS NUMBER.

 

 

Q. IS THAT WHY EVERYONE'S USING IT AND TALKING IN THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 382

 

 

 

 

SWIM PLAN AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, I MEAN---

 

 

A. IN MY OPINION, THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE LAWYERS

 

 

RUNNING THIS AND NON-SCIENTISTS WHO DON'T

 

 

UNDERSTAND---

 

 

Q. I SEE.

 

 

A. --- HOW PLANTS AND---

 

 

Q. I SEE.

 

 

A. --- ANIMALS FUNCTION; AND USING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS AS

 

 

A NUMBER FOR A STANDARD MAKES NO SENSE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU THINK THAT LAWYERS ARE RUNNING ALL

 

 

THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT SCIENCE, AND THAT---

 

 

A. WELL, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, AT LEAST.

 

 

Q. OH, WE'RE RUNNING THE SCIENTISTS AT THE WATER

 

 

MANAGEMENT? IS THAT YOUR ACTUAL BELIEF,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. NO, I'M JUST BEING FACTITIOUS, BUT I DO THINK

 

 

THERE'S A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT FORMS OF

 

 

PHOSPHORUS ARE CRITICAL TO PLANT GROWTH; THERE

 

 

SEEMS TO BE. BUT IT'S TYPICAL OF VERY MUCH --

 

 

VERY MUCH STATE AND FEDERAL AGENCIES OF SETTING

 

 

SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN MEASURE SIMPLY. IT'S JUST

 

 

A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO MEASURE. IF YOU TAKE AN

 

 

AIRBOAT OUT TO THE EVERGLADES AND TRY TO MEASURE

 

 

TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, YOU CANNOT -- AND YOU STOP THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 383

 

 

 

 

AIRBOAT, AND SAY, THE WATER'S A FOOT DEEP, I CAN

 

 

GET YOU ANY TOTAL PHOSPHORUS NUMBER YOU WANT

 

 

PROBABLY WITHIN A RANGE OF -- DEPENDING UPON THE

 

 

AREA, YOU KNOW, THREE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE ALMOST;

 

 

DEPENDING ON HOW YOU DO IT. AND SO I THINK THAT

 

 

THE UNFORTUNATE CASE IS YOU CAN -- YOU HAVE

 

 

DIFFICULTY WITH TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SO YOU HAVE

 

 

TO BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN YOU ANALYZE YOUR SAMPLES,

 

 

AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT YOU STORE

 

 

YOUR SAMPLES. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH

 

 

IT---

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. --- AND AGENCIES ARE NOTORIOUS FOR HAVING MANY

 

 

PEOPLE COLLECT THEM UNDER VARIOUS CONDITIONS, AND

 

 

NUMBERS TURN OUT TO BE NOT SO GOOD.

 

 

Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER

 

 

MANAGEMENT DISTRICT WATER QUALITY DATA IS, IN

 

 

GENERAL, NOT SO GOOD?

 

 

A. I WOULD SAY THAT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH

 

 

THEY HAD TO COLLECT IT AND ON THE BASIS OF WHICH

 

 

THEY DID, IT'S -- IT'S OKAY. IT'S NOT

 

 

SCIENTIFICALLY OF HIGH QUALITY, IN MY OPINION.

 

 

IT'S OKAY.

 

 

Q. CAN YOU MAKE MANAGEMENT DECISIONS BASED ON IT?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 384

 

 

A. SOME.

 

 

Q. VERY LIMITED?

 

 

A. NO. BUT I THINK IT RELATES BACK TO THE TOTAL

 

 

PHOSPHORUS/ORTHOPHOSPHORUS QUESTION, AND, YOU

 

 

KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING TO USE---

 

 

Q. YEAH. WELL---

 

 

A. --- IT GIVES YOU A BALLPARK FIGURE.

 

 

Q. --- WELL, FOR WHATEVER COMFORT IT IS TO YOU, I

 

 

HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED TO ANY SCIENTIST WHAT FORM OF

 

 

PHOSPHORUS TO MEASURE ANYTHING IN. THEY HAD TO

 

 

TEACH ME WHAT THE DIFFERENT FORMS WERE, TO

 

 

WHATEVER EXTENT THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL. AND I

 

 

DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE LAWYERS AT THE WATER

 

 

MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, BUT I HAVEN'T FOUND THEM

 

 

MUCH MORE CONVERSANT IN PHOSPHORUS FORMS THAN I

 

 

AM---

 

 

A. OH, I'M NOT SURE THAT THEY PERMEATED THAT---

 

 

Q. --- SO ---

 

 

A. --- I JUST THINK TOTAL PHOSPHORUS HAS BEEN ON

 

 

THE BOOKS FOR MANY STATES FOR MANY AREAS FOR A

 

 

LONG TIME, AND IT'S JUST SOMETHING PEOPLE NORMALLY

 

 

DO.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. THIS PHOSPHORUS NUMBER THAT YOU DON'T

 

 

KNOW IF IT'S TOTAL PHOSPHORUS OR ORTHO, THAT YOU

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 38S

 

 

 

 

SAY WE HAVE THE DATA FOR, IS IT AT YOUR FERTILIZER

 

 

SITES IN---

 

 

A. IT'S IN AND AROUND THE FERTILIZER SITES, THAT'S

 

 

CORRECT.

 

 

Q. IN AND AROUND. INSIDE THE PLOTS?

 

 

A. AND OUTSIDE THE PLOTS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AT THE MIXED SITE?

 

 

A. THAT'S CORRECT. WELL, OTHER SITES, TOO, WE HAVE

 

 

IT FROM ALL THREE SITES.

 

 

Q. YEAH, BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT WAS THE SITE WHERE

 

 

YOU COULD SHOW LOW NUTRIENTS AND CATTAILS?

 

 

A. CORRECT.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I THINK IT -- WELL, LET ME JUST

 

 

CLEAN UP A COUPLE OF POINTS HERE. DID YOU DO THE

 

 

TWO TO THREE PERCENT (2% TO 3%) ESTIMATE; ARE YOU

 

 

THE ONE WHO DID THAT?

 

 

A. I MAY HAVE DONE THE -- I MAY HAVE DONE THE

 

 

CALCULATION, GIVEN THE TOTAL ACREAGE, AND FIGURED

 

 

OUT WHAT WAS THE DENOMINATOR FOR THE TOTAL AREA

 

 

I CAN'T REMEMBER -- BUT I THINK OTHER PEOPLE HAVE

 

 

IT'S NOT A

 

 

DONE THAT. IT'S NOT A NUMBER THAT

 

 

NUMBER THAT I CAREFULLY SAT DOWN, AND VERY

 

 

CAREFULLY CALCULATED EVERY SECTION OF IT. AS

 

 

I SAID, I HAVE WORKED WITH A NUMBER OF PEOPLE;

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 386

 

 

 

 

AND THROUGH A NUMBER OF MEETINGS AND A NUMBER OF

 

 

MAPS AND DIFFERENT THINGS, I CAME UP WITH THAT

 

 

FIGURE.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHO WERE THE PEOPLE AT THIS MEETINGS? WHO

 

 

ELSE HELPED YOU COME UP WITH THIS---

 

 

A. OH, JUST FOR THIS NUMBER?

 

 

Q. YES, SIR.

 

 

A. THERE WAS NOT A PARTICULAR MEETING SET UP TO COME

 

 

UP WITH THAT NUMBER. IT WAS SORT OF, AGAIN,

 

 

SERENDIPITY. I'D GO TO A MEETING AND SOMEONE

 

 

WOULD SAY, HERE'S A MAP THAT SHOWS THIS AREA, AND

 

 

I WOULD WRITE DOWN A NUMBER ROUGHLY, AND THEY

 

 

WOULD SAY IT COVERS "X" NUMBER OF ACRES. SO, I

 

 

JUST COMPOSITED THESE PIECES OF INFORMATION. AND

 

 

THEN THE ERIM INFORMATION---

 

 

Q. WHO DID THE INTERPRETATION OF THE ERIM, THOUGH;

 

 

DID YOU?

 

 

A. THE ACTUAL INTERPRETATION WAS DONE BY ERIM.

 

 

Q. OKAY. AND -- BUT WHO IS THE PERSON? THERE'S A

 

 

BODY WHO INTERPRETS A SATELLITE IMAGE.

 

 

A. IT'S A YOUNG LADY, BUT I DON'T KNOW HER NAME---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I REALLY DON'T.

 

 

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT FORM OF PHOSPHORUS IS USED

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 387

 

 

 

 

IN TEXTBOOKS TO DEFINE TROPHIC STATUS?

 

 

A. WELL, I SUPPOSE IT DEPENDS ON THE AREA. IN SOME

 

 

PLACES, THEY USE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SOME USE

 

 

ORTHOPHOSPHORUS.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IS

 

 

ORTHOPHOSPHORUS USUALLY IN THE EVERGLADES --

 

 

ORTHOPHOSPHATE? I'M SORRY.

 

 

A. IT DEPENDS ON SEASON, TIME, AREA. I THINK OUR

 

 

STUDIES -- I THINK DR. QUALLS HAD SOME DATA WE PUT

 

 

IN A REPORT. I THINK IT RAN FROM FIFTY TO SEVENTY

 

 

PERCENT (50% TO 70%), SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE,

 

 

DEPENDING ON WHETHER THE GATES ARE OPENED AND

 

 

CLOSED, WHERE THE AREA WAS, SOMEWHERE IN THAT

 

 

RANGE.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I THINK WE'RE AT THE

 

 

TIME WE SAID WE WOULD STOP FOR LUNCH, SO

 

 

I'D LIKE TO STOP NOW.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: NO, WE'RE PAST THAT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YEAH. WELL, WE'RE PAST

 

 

THAT.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: WHAT TIME DO YOU WANT TO

 

 

BE BACK -- TWO?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, TWO SOUNDS FINE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, A LUNCH

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 388

 

 

 

 

BREAK WAS TAKEN.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU READY?

WITNESS: I'M READY.

 

 

EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:

 

 

Q. OKAY, DR. RICHARDSON, RETURNING TO THE ISSUE OF

 

 

YOUR COMPENSATION, BOTH BY THE EPD AND DUKE

 

 

UNIVERSITY, WE HAD FOR -- THE BUDGET FOR 1993,

 

 

WHICH IS REPRESENTATIVE OF YOUR PRIOR BUDGETS, I

 

 

BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED, DIDN'T YOU? IT'S SIMILAR,

 

 

IT MAY BE A FIVE PERCENT (5%) INCREASE?

 

 

A. IT INCREASED. THERE'S A---

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

A. --- I THINK THERE'S A COST IN THE -- AN INCREASE.

 

 

THE ALLOCATION PATTERNS MAY DIFFER FROM YEAR TO

 

 

YEAR.

 

 

Q. ALL RIGHT. THERE REMAINS A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION

 

 

AS TO WHAT I CAN ASK YOU, BUT I'VE BEEN ADVISED BY

 

 

YOUR COUNSEL I CAN ASK YOU ONE QUESTION, AND THEN

 

 

YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO ANSWER THE

 

 

SECOND QUESTION. BUT LET'S DO THE FIRST QUESTION

 

 

THAT YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO ANSWER IF I DO IT

 

 

RIGHT. THE FORTY-SEVEN THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED AND

 

 

SEVENTY-NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($47,979.00) THAT

 

 

SET AS YOUR SALARY AND WAGE, WOULD BE WHAT

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 389

 

 

 

 

PERCENTAGE OF YOUR TWELVE MONTHS' SALARY FROM DUKE

 

 

UNIVERSITY?

 

 

A. AS I SAID, IT'S DIFFICULT AT THIS TIME TO PROJECT

 

 

WHAT IT WOULD BE, BUT I CAN GIVE YOU A RANGE OF

 

 

WHAT IT WOULD BE, OKAY, OF WHAT PERCENTAGE IT

 

 

WOULD BE OF MY SALARY.

 

 

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

 

 

A. AND IN THIS PARTICULAR YEAR, AS I SAID, I DON'T

 

 

KNOW WHAT IT WOULD BE. MAYBE -- IT WOULD BE, BY

 

 

UNIVERSITY POLICY, NO MORE THAN ONE-THIRD, AND IT

 

 

COULD RANGE FROM FIFTEEN -- I WOULD SAY FIFTEEN TO

 

 

THIRTY PERCENT WOULD BE A RANGE.

 

 

HAVE YOU HAD -- AND I DON'T HAVE EXACTLY THE

 

 

BUDGETS FOR EACH OF THE OTHER YEARS. WE CAN COME

 

 

TO THEM AMONG THE DOCUMENTS. BUT THE FORTY-SEVEN

 

 

THOUSAND, IS THAT ROUGHLY THE SALARY THAT YOU'VE

 

 

RECEIVED THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD OF TIME, 1989, 190,

 

 

'91, '92, FROM THE EPD?

 

 

A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT AMOUNT.

 

 

Q. WAS IT SOMETHING IN THE FORTY THOUSAND RANGE?

 

 

A. WELL, IT'S NO MORE THAN; IT MAY BE LESS THAN

 

 

THAT. BUT, AGAIN, IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT

 

 

THAT I DON'T -- AS I'VE TRIED TO EXPLAIN VERY

 

 

CLEARLY, AND RALPH MAY HAVE MENTIONED THIS TO

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 390

 

 

 

 

YOU -- YOU GET A BASE SALARY, THE SALARY COMES,

 

 

AND YOU'RE NOT SURE OF THE ALLOCATION FROM TIME TO

 

 

TIME.

 

 

Q. WELL, I THINK THAT IS THE SECOND QUESTION. WHAT

 

 

IS YOUR BASE SALARY---

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECT.

 

 

Q. ---FOR -- WELL, I GUESS THE ONE THAT YOU -- DO YOU

 

 

KNOW YOUR BASE SALARY FOR 1993?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. YOU KNOW YOUR BASE SALARY FOR '92?

 

 

A. YES, I KNOW.

 

 

Q. OKAY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: MR. McCAUGHAN.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: COUNSEL, I OBJECT ON

 

 

THE GROUNDS THAT ITFS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF

 

 

DISCOVERY HERE, AND NOT RELEVANT.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I'M GOING TO CERTIFY

 

 

THE QUESTION AND PURSUE HIS BASE SALARY,

 

 

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A

 

 

FAIR UNDERSTANDING OF HIS COMPENSATION

 

 

WITHOUT IT, COUNSEL, BUT I APPRECIATE YOUR

 

 

EFFORTS TO TRY AND ACCOMMODATE OUR NEED FOR

 

 

DISCOVERY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, JUST TO SEE IF I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 391

 

 

 

 

CAN HELP MYSELF JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE, DO YOU

 

 

REMEMBER IN 189 WHAT PERCENTAGE YOUR SALARY WOULD

 

 

HAVE BEEN OF YOUR TOTAL COMPENSATION FOR THE YEAR

 

 

FROM DUKE?

 

 

A. I'M SORRY, WOULD I REMEMBER?

 

 

Q. THIS PERCENTAGE, THIS RATIO, THIS FIFTEEN TO

 

 

THIRTY PERCENT (15% TO 30%), IT'S A FAIRLY LARGE

 

 

RANGE.

 

 

A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK. I DON'T KNOW THE

 

 

UNIVERSITY -- I DON'T KNOW. IT WOULD -- I'M

 

 

TRYING TO GIVE YOU -- IT VARIES BY SEMESTER. IT

 

 

COULD VARY BY SUMMER, IT COULD VARY BY MONTH. I

 

 

MEAN, I KNOW, FOR AN EXAMPLE, ONE YEAR, I THINK I

 

 

HAD FOUR -- FOUR DIFFERENT GROUPS PAYING SOME OF

 

 

MY SALARY IN THE SUMMERTIME, AND SO I MIGHT GET

 

 

TWO WEEKS HERE, AND A WEEK THERE.

 

 

SURE. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

 

 

DOES THE EPD GRANT REPRESENT THE LARGEST GRANT

 

 

THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTLY AT THE DUKE WETLAND

 

 

CENTER?

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.

 

 

COULD YOU RESTATE THAT? IT'S UNCLEAR TO

 

 

ME WHAT YOU'RE ASKING.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I'M ASKING IS THAT THE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 392

 

 

 

 

LARGEST GRANT, IN TERMS OF MONEY, THAT'S

 

 

GIVEN TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: THE TOTAL?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: TOTAL AMOUNTS OF MONEY---

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- RIGHT.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: THANKS.

 

 

A. AT THE PRESENT TIME, I THINK IT WOULD BE. OVER

 

 

THE TOTAL, I HAVE RAISED AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF

 

 

MONEY, PROBABLY -- I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK

 

 

AT IT; I DON'T REALLY KEEP TRACK OF IT -- BUT

 

 

WE'VE HAD FAIRLY LARGE GRANTS FROM THE USDA AND

 

 

OTHER AGENCIES, THAT RUN INTO THE MILLIONS OF

 

 

DOLLARS.

 

 

Q. SURE. SURE. OKAY. I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH

 

 

THOSE, I GUESS, WHEN I DO YOUR CV, OR I HAVE

 

 

ANOTHER GRANT PROPOSAL, I'D LIKE TO GO THROUGH IT.

 

 

WAS THAT TRUE ALSO IN '92, 191, AND 190, AND '89,

 

 

THAT THE EPD GRANT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LARGEST IN

 

 

A. TERMS OF ACTUAL DOLLARS TO THE DUKE WETLAND

 

 

CENTER?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHICH YEAR WAS IT THE LARGEST? WHICH OF

 

 

THOSE YEARS WOULD IT HAVE BEEN THE LARGEST SINGLE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 393

 

 

 

 

GRANT?

 

 

A. IT'S HARD TO SAY, AS I DON'T -- I DON'T HAVE THAT

 

 

ALLOCATION. IT WOULD DEPEND ON -- WE -- FOR

 

 

EXAMPLE, I AM CO-DIRECTOR OF TOXICOLOGY, AND WE

 

 

HAVE A MILLION AND A HALF DOLLARS FROM NIH FOR---

 

 

Q. BUT, I MEAN, THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER.

 

 

A. I KNOW, BUT I'M CO-DIRECTOR OF THAT, SO I HELP

 

 

WRITE PORTIONS OF THAT. I HAD A THREE-QUARTER OF

 

 

A MILLION DOLLAR GRANT, I BELIEVE, FROM THE USDA.

 

 

WE HAVE SOME FOUNDATION GRANTS. SO, I DON'T HAVE

 

 

THAT ALLOCATION SET UP.

 

 

DO THESE GRANTS THAT YOU'RE MENTIONING, DO THEY

 

 

COME INTO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? THESE ARE

 

 

GRANTS TO THE DUKE WET---

 

 

A. FOR THE MOST PART, YES. YES, TO ME AND TO THE

 

 

WETLAND CENTER AS THE DIRECTOR.

 

 

Q. NO, NOT TO YOU, TO THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, THAT'S

 

 

THE ONE I'M TALKING ABOUT---

 

 

A. BUT I---

Q. --- NOT TO YOU PERSONALLY.

A. ---BUT I -- BASICALLY AS DIRECTOR OF THE WETLAND,

 

 

THEY WOULD COME TO THE WETLAND CENTER.

 

 

Q. BUT YOU'RE SAYING -- YOU'RE KIND OF -- YOU'RE

 

 

HEDGING, AND MAYBE YOU DON'T MEAN TO HEDGE---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 394

 

 

A. NO, I DON'T.

 

 

Q. ---MAYBE YOU DON'T MEAN TO, IT'S JUST COMING OUT

 

 

THAT WAY, AND SO IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME WHAT THE

 

 

ANSWER IS. SO, IF YOU CAN TAKE THE BASICALLYS

 

 

AWAY, AND JUST TELL ME, YES, THIS WAS THE LARGEST

 

 

GRANT I HAD IN 192; NO, IT WASNFT. THAT'S -- YOU

 

 

KNOW, IT'S A REAL STRAIGHTFORWARD ANSWER.

 

 

A. IN 192, I THINK THE ANSWER WOULD BE, YES.

 

 

Q. OKAY. IN '91?

 

 

A. I -- AFTER YOU GO BACK FROM 192, I'M NOT SURE,

 

 

BECAUSE I/D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AND SEE WHEN

 

 

CERTAIN GRANTS ENDED AND WHEN CERTAIN ONES

 

 

STARTED. IT MAY BE IN 191.

 

 

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IN 190?

 

 

A. I DON'T KNOW IN 190. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND

 

 

LOOK.

 

 

Q. AND '89?

 

 

A. PROBABLY NOT.

 

 

Q. AND IN '88---

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. --- THE FIRST YEAR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE

 

 

CAME IN?

 

 

A. NO.

 

 

Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS YOUR LARGEST GRANT IN '88?

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 395

 

 

 

 

A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK. I DON'T---

 

 

Q. YOU DON'T KNOW, BUT YOU KNOW SOMETHING WAS LARGER

 

 

THAN THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?

 

 

A. WELL, I HAD A VERY LARGE PROGRAM. IN f88, I WAS

 

 

DOING FAIRLY LARGE STUDIES ON WETLANDS IN NORTH

 

 

CAROLINA. I HAD A VERY LARGE ACID RAIN -- WHEN WE

 

 

GO THROUGH THE CV, A VERY LARGE -- I WAS DIRECTOR

 

 

OF THE ACID RAIN OZONE PROGP-M---

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECTION. COULD WE

 

 

GO OFF THE RECORD?

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: SURE.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

 

 

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. LET'S GO BACK ON

 

 

THE RECORD. ACTUALLY, THAT WOULD BE BETTER

 

 

ON THE RECORD. WOULD YOU LIKE TO PUT IT ON

 

 

THE RECORD, MR. McCAUGHAN?

McCAUGHAN: YES. I OBJECT TO THE

 

 

QUESTION ON THE BASIS THAT IT MAY LEAD TO THE

 

 

REVELATION -- INADVERTENT REVELATION OF

 

 

CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT'S PROTECTED BY

 

 

CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS BETWEEN DUKE AND

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 396

 

 

 

 

CERTAIN PRIVATE SPONSORS OF RESEARCH. AND,

 

 

THEREFORE, I WILL INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO

 

 

RESPOND OR ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT MAY REVEAL

 

 

THE NAMES OF THOSE PARTIES OR THE AMOUNTS OF

 

 

THOSE GRANTS.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK WE'LL HAVE

 

 

TO TAKE IT QUESTION BY QUESTION, COUNSELOR---

MR. McCAUGHAN: FINE.

MS. PONZOLI: --- BECAUSE I -- I THINK

 

 

WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS YOU'RE SORT OF LEAVING

 

 

TO A NON-LEGAL WITNESS THE DECISION REGARDING

 

 

WHICH ANSWERS TO GIVE AND NOT. BUT JUST SO

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR

 

 

INSTRUCTIONS, YOU'RE SAYING HE CAN ANSWER

 

 

QUESTIONS REGARDING PUBLIC GRANTS? IS THAT

 

 

ACCURATE---

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: GRANTS---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- BUT NOT PRIVATE ONES?

MR. McCAUGHAN: --- GRANTS THAT ARE

 

 

FUNDED BY PUBLIC AGENCIES, WHETHER IT'S STATE

 

 

OR FEDERAL---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: --- OR OTHER.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I UNDERSTOOD -- I

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 397

 

 

DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT MUCH OF A PROBLEM---

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: NO, I DON'T EITHER.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: --- BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND

 

 

MOST OF HIS GRANTS TO BE PUBLIC GRANTS---

 

 

MR. McCAUGHAN: ABSOLUTELY.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE THEY NOT, DR. RICHARDSON?

 

 

A. THERE ARE SOME PRIVATE FOUNDATION GRANTS. I'VE

 

 

HAD SOME---

 

 

Q. BUT THE BULK OF YOUR GRANTS ARE PUBLIC, ARE THEY

 

 

NOT?

 

 

A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE YEAR. SOME OF THOSE, I

 

 

THINK, I HAD SOME FAIRLY LARGE PRIVATE FOUNDATION

 

 

GRANTS.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T

 

 

JUDGE AGAINST WHAT YOU CAN'T TELL US, SO I

 

 

THINK WE'LL JUST HAVE TO WORK THIS ONE

 

 

THROUGH, I GUESS.

 

 

THEN I WOULD CERTIFY MY RIGHT TO FIND

 

 

OUT THOSE PRIVATE FOUNDATION GRANTS. I DON'T

 

 

KNOW, I THINK IT'S -- YOU PUT CONSTRAINTS ON

 

 

THE QUESTION, OR THEY'RE HARD TO FOLLOW.

 

 

I DON'T BELIEVE IFVE BEEN ALLOWED THE

 

 

DISCOVERY THAT I NEED ON THIS POINT, AND I

 

 

WILL CERTIFY THOSE QUESTIONS, AND WILL PURSUE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 398

 

 

 

 

THEM, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THEY GO TO DISCOVERY

 

 

THAT'S APPROPRIATELY OURS.

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I'D LIKE TO BEGIN TO ASK YOU

 

 

SOME QUESTIONS ON SOME DOCUMENTS ABOUT THE DUKE

 

 

WETLAND CENTER, AND YOUR INITIAL WORK ON BEHALF OF

 

 

THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND THE EPD, AND I

 

 

WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AT, FIRST, THE EXPERT WITNESS

 

 

DOCUMENT THAT YOU PRODUCED, DR. RICHARDSON, CALLED

 

 

THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: AND IT'S -- I GUESS I CAN

 

 

JUST SHOW IT TO COUNSEL BECAUSE I ASKED THAT

 

 

THEY BRING THESE.

 

 

CAN WE GO OFF THE RECORD ONE SECOND?

 

 

(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN

 

 

OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION

 

 

WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED

BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CAN YOU IDENTIFY

 

 

THIS DOCUMENT?

 

 

A. IT IS A TYPED VERSION OF THE WETLAND CENTER FLYER

 

 

THAT WAS PRODUCED.

 

 

Q. DID YOU AUTHOR THIS?

 

 

A. FOR THE MOST PART, I DID.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. THIS WILL BE

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 399

 

 

MARKED AS RICHARDSON NUMBER FOUR.

 

 

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

 

 

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

 

 

EXHIBIT NO. 4 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

 

 

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

MR. BURGESS: I JUST WANT TO STATE FOR

 

 

THE RECORD THAT IN CHECKING MY RECORDS, IT

 

 

DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE A DOCUMENT THAT I

 

 

PROVIDED TO THE UNITED STATES. I'M NOT

 

 

SAYING THAT'S---

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT'S

 

 

TRUE?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: --- WITH DEFINITE

 

 

CERTAINTY. BUT I THINK IT PROBABLY CAME

 

 

FROM DR. RICHARDSONIS FILES, NOT AMONGST

 

 

THE---

 

 

MR. GREEN: SUZAN, DO YOU HAVE

 

 

ANOTHER COPY OF THAT, THAT I CAN LOOK AT?

 

 

MR. BURGESS: OF THIS THING?

MS. PONZOLI: WELL, MR. KILLINGER HAD IT

 

 

AMONG HIS EXPERT DOCUMENTS, SO I THINK YOU

 

 

PROBABLY DID PROVIDE IT. I DONFT THINK IT'S

 

 

A BIG DEAL.

 

 

MR. BURGESS: NO, I---

 

 

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 400

 

 

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: I MEAN, IT'S THE SAME

 

 

THING AS HIS DUKE WETLAND CENTER, WHICH I'M

GOING TO HAND HIM IN TWO SECONDS. WHY DON'T

 

 

WE GO AHEAD AND DO THAT?

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, I'M GOING TO

 

 

HAND YOU A BROCHURE, CAN YOU IDENTIFY---

 

 

A. YES, THAT'S---

 

 

Q. --- THAT DOCUMENT?

 

 

A. --- THAT'S THE CURRENT DUKE WETLAND CENTER FLYER.

 

 

MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE

TO MARK THAT RICHARDSON NUMBER FIVE.

(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED

TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION

EXHIBIT NO. 5 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

 

 

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) AND I'D LIKE TO START, FIRST,

 

 

DR. RICHARDSON, AND ASK YOU WHEN THE DUKE WETLAND

 

 

CENTER WAS FORMED?

 

 

A. WE HAVE HAD A DUKE PROGRAM SINCE MY ARRIVAL, OR

 

 

SHORTLY THEREAFTER, IN 1977, AND OFFERED COURSES

 

 

IN WETLANDS SINCE THE LATE "70'S. THE CENTER WAS

 

 

OFFICIALLY -- AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW, IT TAKES

 

 

TIME -- PROPOSED SOME TIME IN THE EARLY TO MID

 

 

'80'S AS A UNIVERSITY CONCEPT, WHICH I SENT