DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 201
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WE HAVE A PENDING QUESTION THAT,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT COULD BE IMPROVED OVER
TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT?
A. AS I THINK I SORT OF HINTED, IF I DIDN'T, WITHOUT
REVIEWING THE DOCUMENTS IN MORE DETAIL, AND
LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DATA IN THE EAA, MORE
SPECIFIC DATA, I REALLY -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE
ARE SOME POSSIBILITIES THAT THEY COULD DO SO. I
THINK THERE MAY BE SOME OTHER MECHANISMS, THAT I
MENTIONED IN MY SECOND REPORT, THAT I THINK SHOULD
BE LOOKED AT, AND I STILL THINK THEY SHOULD BE
LOOKED AT, BUT WHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF
REDUCTIONS ARE, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN---
Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO OPINION AS TO HOW MUCH MORE THEY
COULD RAISE OVER TWENTY-FIVE---
A. RAISE?
MR. BURGESS: RAISE?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, LOWER -- I'M SORRY.
LOWER. RAISE THE PERCENTAGE OF REDUCTION, OR
WHATEVER. ANYWAY, LOWER THEIR PHOSPHORUS?
A. I DON'T HAVE A PERCENTAGE NUMBER IN MIND. I MEAN,
THERE ARE SOME OBVIOUS CHOICES IN SOME CASES, BUT
THE FARMERS HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, DECIDE, I MEAN,
SOME OF THOSE COMPONENTS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 202
Q. WHAT ARE THE OBVIOUS CHOICES?
A. WELL, I SUPPOSE THERE IS A SERIES OF STUDIES THAT
COULD BE DONE ON REDUCTIONS FOR, YOU KNOW,
VEGETABLE CROPS, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MUCH NUTRIENT
MATERIAL THEY COULD GET BY WITH. THERE ARE
STUDIES THAT COULD BE RECYCLING AND RECIRCULATING
WATER. THERE COULD BE SOME HOLDING PONDS THAT
COULD BE CONSIDERED. THERE COULD BE A VARIETY --
I MEAN, THERE ARE A WHOLE LIST OF TECHNIQUES, MOST
OF WHICH PEOPLE DON'T HAVE NUMBERS ON.
Q. THIS IS IN YOUR REPORT, YOU SAID?
A. SOME OF THOSE GENERIC AREAS ARE IN THE -- ARE
IN MY RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WAS IN MY SECOND
REPORT.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY YOUR SECOND REPORT, I THINK WE'RE A
LITTLE CONFUSED. DO YOU MEAN YOUR ANNUAL REPORT?
A. MY ANNUAL REPORT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHICH CHAPTER WAS THIS?
A. IT'S IN THE BACK.
Q. IN THE CONCLUSIONS?
A. I THINK THERE'S A SECTION CALLED RECOMMENDATIONS
OR SOMETHING.
Q. OKAY. AND THESE, REDUCTION OF VEGETABLE CROPS AND
THE HOLDING PONDS AND WHATEVER ELSE YOU HAD
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 203
LISTED, WERE ALL -- YOU BELIEVE WERE LISTED THERE,
TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION WERE THERE?
A. I JUST SAID BMP'S IN A GENERIC SENSE.
Q. OKAY, OKAY.
A. I DIDN'T SAY WHICH SPECIFIC ONES. MY POINT THERE
IS SIMPLY THAT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER
ALTERNATIVES THAT CAN BE LOOKED AT. AND I THINK
THAT, YOU KNOW, ALL SIDES SHOULD BE LOOKING AT
OTHER ALTERNATIVES.
Q. SUCH AS? NOW, YOU SAID THERE ARE OTHER POSSIBLE
ALTERNATIVES, BUT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD US WHAT THEY
ARE. YOUFVE MENTIONED THE BMP'S, AND YOU SAID
THAT YOU THOUGHT DR. PATRICK'S PROPOSAL SHOULD BE
FUNDED AND FOLLOWED THROUGH ON, BUT WHAT OTHER
ALTERNATIVES DO YOU BELIEVE ARE VIABLE?
A. WELL, I THINK I MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE SOME
HOLDING POND SCENARIOS, RECYCLING OF WATER WITHIN
THE SYSTEM, A REDUCTION OF UTILIZATION OF
NUTRIENTS. I THINK I MENTIONED THAT ONE. THERE
COULD BE TESTS DONE ON FORMS OF NUTRIENTS. BUT
THESE ARE -- THESE ARE NOT THINGS THAT YOU SIMPLY
ONE DAY TURN ON THE ANSWER AND GET THE ANSWER.
YOU NEED TO HAVE SOME SPECIFIC RESEARCH TAILORED
TO DO THIS.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 204
Q. AND YOU RECOMMENDED AS FAR BACK AS 1989 THAT THE
INDUSTRY START DOING THAT?
A. I RECOM -- I'M SORRY.
MR. BURGESS: I OBJECT TO 'I'HE
CHARACTERIZATION OF HIS TESTIMONY --
"DOING THAT."
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DOING RESEARCH ON 'I'HESE BMP OR
ALTERNATE REMOVAL FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS.
A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK THE RECORDS, BUT
I -- IT MAY BE SOMETIME IN LATE 189 OR 190. AS I
SAID, I THINK THAT WAS MY -- SOMEWHERE IN THAT
TIME FRAME. BUT I DID NOT GIVE SPECIFIC --
SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS. I MEAN, I WAS NOT
ASKED TO, BUT I WAS TELLING THEM THAI' I THOUGHT
THAT WAS AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO APPROACH THIS, THAT
THEY SHOULD DO SO.
Q. IF YOU'RE CHECKING YOUR RECORDS, YOU MEAN YOUR
CALENDAR OF EVENTS---
A. UH---
Q. --- HOW DO YOU MEAN CHECK YOUR RECORDS? DO YOU
KEEP -- DO YOU KEEP LOGS THAT TELL YOU WHEN YOU
MET WITH PEOPLE?
A. NO, NOT PARTICULARLY. BUT I -- BUT I' MAY HAVE, IF
I WENT THROUGH AND LOOKED AT MY CORRESPONDENCE OR
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 205
SOMETHING, I MAY HAVE A WAY OF LOOKING TO SEE
WHAT -- YOU KNOW, I AM ACTUALLY NOT QUITE AS GOOD
AT THAT AS I SHOULD BE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR MEETING WITH
MR. WEDGWORTH IN 1988, FOLLOWING MR. BARBER
RECOMMENDING YOU, HAVING MET YOU AT A WETLANDS
CONFERENCE, AND MR. WEDGWORTH AT THAT TIME WAS IN
THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. WHAT HAPPENED
AFTER THAT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. AFTER OUR MEETING, OR DURING OUR MEETING, HE SAID
TO ME THAT, IN FACT, WHAT WE -- WHAT THAT --
MEANING THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS INTERESTED IN
WAS TO -- TO CONDUCT SOME RESEARCH. GEORGE HAS
ALWAYS BEEN FAIRLY, AT LEAST TO ME,
STRAIGHTFORWARD, IN THAT WE HAD TO FIND OUT THE
FACTS. WITHOUT THE FACTS, NO ONE COULD WE'D BE
ACTING BLINDLY ON THIS INFORMATION, 130 AND I
TOLD HIM THAT IF WE DID THIS RESEARCH, ONE, IT
WOULD HAVE TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. IT WOULD
HAVE TO BE -- WE WOULD HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PUBLISH
THIS INFORMATION. WE DID NOT DO THIS INFORMATION
ANY OTHER WAY. HE SAID THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY NO
PROBLEM, AND -- BUT HE ALSO TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE
VISITING THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND SOME OTHER
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 206
INSTITUTIONS, AND SO THAT WE'D HAVE TO BASICALLY
DEVELOP A PROPOSAL, AND THEN THEY WOULD MAKE A
DECISION AFTER WE PRESENTED OUR PROPOSALS, WHAT WE
WOULD DO, AND THEN PROCEED FROM THERE. SO, WE
THEN WENT BACK -- I WENT BACK -- I SAY WE -- I
WENT BACK AND BASICALLY DEVELOPED A PROPOSAL TO
LOOK AT THE CATTAIL ISSUE. AND BASICALLY I CALLED
IT A PILOT STUDY, BECAUSE AT THAT TIME I FELT THAT
THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION, AS ANY ECOLOGIST
WOULD, YOU NEED TO -- I NEEDED TO GET MY OWN
BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON THE WHOLE STATE OF THE
EVERGLADES---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- SO, I PROCEEDED TO DO SO. AND---
Q. YOU DID A PROPOSAL TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND DO YOU BELIEVE YOU PROVIDED THAT TO US AMONG
YOUR DOCUMENTS?
A. I BELIEVE SO. IF I DIDN'T, I CAN SURELY PRODUCE
IT.
Q. WOULD YOU DO THAT? I WAS UNABLE TO LOCATE IT, AND
I JUST MUST HAVE PASSED BY IT, BUT THERE WERE A
FAIR NUMBER---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 207
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---AND THEY CAME IN TONS A DAY, FOR A PERIOD OF
TIME.
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT IF YOU COULD BRING
THAT, ALONG WITH YOUR CURRENT CV---
A. OKAY.
Q. --- AND MS. RAIKES' PAPER, IF YOU CAN GET THAT FROM
WHEREVER IT IS.
A. OKAY.
Q. OKAY.
MR. GREEN: HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT,
SUZAN. I MISSED THAT DEPO---
MS. PONZOLI: RAIKES?
MR. GREEN: YEAH.
MS. PONZOLI: R-A-I-K-E-S.
MR. GREEN: OKAY.
WITNESS: I DON'T BELIEVE HERE WAS A
DEPOSITION.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, HER NAME CAME UP IN
A PRIOR DEPOSITION.
WITNESS: RIGHT, BUT I---
MS. PONZOLI: THAT MR. GREEN WAS HERE.
MR. GREEN: THANK YOU.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 208
MS. PONZOLI: IT WAS JANE RAIKES.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. I WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO
THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING, FROM YOUR PROPOSAL,
PROBABLY FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. BUT I WOULD
LIKE TO GO BACK, DR. RICHARDSON, TO THE LINE I HAD
PREVIOUSLY BEEN PURSUING, AS TO WHICH EXPERT
WITNESSES YOU HAD BEEN WORKING WITH ON BEHALF OF
THE LEAGUE AND THE COOPERATIVE, AND TRY TO FINISH
THAT UP TODAY.
A. OKAY.
Q. BECAUSE THATFS WHERE -- IT'S HOW WE ENDED UP GOING
DOWN THIS ROAD.
A. OKAY.
Q. AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO FINISH UP THAT
DISCRETE AREA. I DON'T RECALL YOUR -- YOUR EXACT
PREVIOUS ANSWER AS TO WHOM YOU WERE WORKING WITH.
I THINK WE HAD GONE INTO -- YOU HAD DONE SOME
LITERATURE SEARCHES AND YOU'D MET WITH SOME
PEOPLE. I'D LIKE TO KNOW SPECIFICALLY, ARE THERE
EXPERTS WITH WHOM YOU CONSULT TO PREPARE EITHER
PRESENTATIONS, WHICH I THINK YOU DID SAY YOU HAD
DONE SOME OF THAT, DID YOU NOT?
A. DONE SOME PRESENTATIONS.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, WHOM HAVE YOU CONSULTED WITH TO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 209
DO PRESENTATIONS?
MR. BURGESS: PRESENTATIONS TO WHOM?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHOM HAVE YOU DONE PRESENTATIONS
TO, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN I MAKE PRESENTATIONS, I
PRETTY MUCH DO THEM MYSELF, OR WITH MY STAFF.
AND WE DON'T -- WHAT WE PRESENT NORMALLY IS WHERE
WE -- USUALLY WE ARE ASKED TO -- AND IFLL TELL YOU
WHO IN A MINUTE -- WE ARE ASKED TO PRESENT OUR
CURRENT STATE OF KNOWLEDGE AND WHERE WE ARE ON
RESEARCH.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. AND, SO, I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY AUDUBON SOCIETY,
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, SOUTHERN FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, NUMEROUS NATIONAL AND
INTERNATIONAL MEETINGS TO PRESENT INFORMATION.
Q. WETLANDS CONFERENCES OF ALL DIFFERENT---
A. WETLAND CONFERENCES ALL DIFFERENT TYPES.
Q. SIZES, SORTS AND SHAPES?
A. LECTURES AT VARIOUS UNIVERSITIES---
Q. UH-HUH (YES). UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- HALF A DOZEN OF THOSE -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE
EXACT NUMBER -- AROUND THE COUNTRY, SPECIFICALLY
ON THIS EVERGLADES ISSUE, SO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 210
Q. HOW OFTEN DO YOU MEET -- WELL, WHOM 1)0 YOU MEET
WITH BEFORE YOU DO THESE? WHICH OF THE EXPERTS
FOR THE LEAGUE, OR THE COOPERATIVE, 1)0 YOU MEET
WITH PRIOR TO ANY OF THESE, SAGE OR SOUTH FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, OR AUDUBON OR FLORIDA
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, U.S. SUGAR, ANY OF THEM, WHOM
HAVE YOU MET WITH?
A. OCCASIONALLY, I MEET ON SOME OF THOSE
PRESENTATIONS -- YOU KNOW, YOU WANT SPECIFIC
PEOPLE?
Q. I WANT SPECIFIC PEOPLE.
A. MOST OF THE TIME, I'D -- I'D HAVE TO GO IN
CHRONOLOGY, IT'S -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S
USUALLY TO -- TO BASICALLY GIVE AN OVERVIEW OF
WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY. SECONDLY, IT'S PEOPLE LIKE
ANDY RACKLEY. AT ONE TIME, IT WAS ED BARBER.
OCCASIONALLY, IT WAS BOB BUKER. AND SOME OF THE
OTHER PEOPLE, I DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES. I
OCCASIONALLY HAVE MADE PRESENTATIONS TO THE EQC ON
MY RESEARCH.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER HAD -- HAS DR. DAVIS EVER
PARTICIPATED IN---
A. OH, YES.
Q. --- ANY OF THESE MEETINGS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 211
A. OH, YES, JOHN DAVIS. YES, DR. JOHN DAVIS HAS BEEN
AT THOSE MEETINGS.
Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON?
A. OH, NOT -- NOT VERY MANY OF THE MEETINGS THAT I'VE
BEEN AT THAT -- HAS HE BEEN AT. HE WAS -- HE MAY
HAVE BEEN AT ONE OR TWO, BUT NOT VERY MANY. I
HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT MOST OF THESE MEETINGS.
Q. OKAY. DR. PATRICK, HAS HE EVER PARTICIPATED IN
ANY OF THESE?
A. HE HAS PARTICIPATED OCCASIONALLY.
Q. DR. POLLMAN?
A. ON -- I HAVE MET WITH -- MET WITH HIM
OCCASIONALLY, BUT NOT ON THESE MEETINGS---
Q. OKAY. WHAT---
A. --- NOT ON THOSE MEETINGS, NO.
Q. WHAT HAVE YOU MEET WITH DR. POLLMAN ON?
A. WE HAVE HAD SOME MEETINGS -- ONE IN GAINESVILLE,
AND ONE, I BELIEVE, OR MAYBE TWO AT DUKE.
Q. ON WHAT?
A. SPECIFICALLY TO -- TO -- TO LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE
BEEN DOING. THEY PRIMARILY -- IN FACT, BILL GREEN
CAME TO ONE OF THOSE MEETINGS, OR MAYBE TWO OF
THEM, TO -- BASICALLY, THEY WANTED TO BE BROUGHT
UP TO SPEED AS TO WHERE OUR RESEARCH WAS. AND, IN
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 212
FACT, THAT IS PART AND PARCEL -- MOST OF THE TIME
WHEN I MEET WITH PEOPLE, I'D SAY EIGHTY PERCENT --
I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT FIGURE -- THAT IS WHAT I'M
DOING. I AM BRINGING THIS GROUP UP TO SPEED OF
WHAT WE'RE FINDING.
Q. DO THEY EVER OFFER COMMENTS ON THE TONE OF YOUR
PRESENTATION, OR MAKE SUGGESTIONS AS TO THE
VISUALS THAT YOU MIGHT USE?
A. NOT REALLY. THEY'RE MOSTLY CONFUSED BY IT, I
THINK.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THEM QUOTE WHAT YOU DID IN THE
PRESENTATIONS?
A. HAVE I EVER HEARD THEM? NO.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER READ REPRESENTATIONS IN PRESS
RELEASES AS TO WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THE CURRENT
STATE OF YOUR RESEARCH?
A. I HAVE---
MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM,
JUST WHO THEM IS. I DON'T KNOW WHO
THEM IS.
WITNESS: YEAH, WHO IS THEM? WHO
BE THEM?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, ONE OF THE THEMS IS
MR. BUKER.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 213
A. YES. AND HAVE I EVER HEARD OR---
Q. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OR READ MR. BUKERIS
CHARACTERIZATIONS OF THE CURRENT STATE OF YOUR
RESEARCH?
A. I'VE READ, I BELIEVE -- AS YOU KNOW, I DO GET SOME
NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS FROM DOWN THERE, TO TRY TO
KEEP ABREAST OF WHAT'S GOING ON.
Q. I'VE GOT A FEW.
A. WELL, IF YOU READ THE BACK---
Q. YOURS AND MINE.
A. IF YOU -- IF YOU READ THE BACKSIDE, THERE'S DEAR
ABBY AND MORE INTERESTING READING ON THE BACK.
PARDON ME. I HAVE READ SOME, I BELIEVE -- I CAN'T
REMEMBER HOW MANY -- BUT SOME COMMENTS THAT HE HAS
MADE RELATED TO OUR RESEARCH.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER FOUND MISCHARACTERIZATIONS OF YOUR
RESEARCH?
A. I'D SAY AT LEAST MISUNDERSTANDINGS OF SOME
COMPONENTS OF IT.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU FIND THAT DR. PATRICK AND DR.
POLLMAN WERE CONFUSED BY THE STATE OF YOUR
RESEARCH?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. NOR DR. DAVIS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 214
A. NO. HOWEVER, YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT IN SOME
ASPECTS, THE DEPTH OF WHICH YOU DISCUSS CERTAIN
COMPONENTS OF RESEARCH CAN BE, TO ALMOST ANYONE,
CONFUSING UNLESS YOU HAVE THE MATERIAL TO READ OR
GO THROUGH IT. IT CAN BE. AND, ALSO, IT ALSO MAY
BE THAT I SPEAK RAPIDLY AND AM NOT QUITE AS CLEAR
ON SOME THINGS AS I SHOULD BE.
Q. IN PREPARATION FOR YOUR PRESENTATIONS AT, LET'S
SAY WHATEVER, A WETLANDS CONFERENCE OR WHATEVER,
ANY OF THESE -- THESE MEETINGS, HAVE YOU HAD JOINT
MEETINGS THAT INCLUDED ATTORNEYS AND OTHER
EXPERTS?
A. NO.
Q. THEY HAVE ONLY INCLUDED OTHER EXPERTS OR
CONSULTANTS?
A. NO ONE -- LIKE FOR, SAY, A WETLANDS MEETING?
Q. FOR SAGE -- FOR SAGE. LET'S SAY SPECIFICALLY FOR
THE SAGE PRESENTATION.
A. I'M SORRY, BUT I THOUGHT I THOUGHT YOU HAD SAID
WETLANDS MEETINGS.
Q. WELL, NO, I'VE SORT OF MADE THEM ALL GENERIC.
I'VE INCLUDED ALL OF THESE, SAGE, AUDUBON, U.S.
SUGAR OR SOUTH FLORIDA. I SORT OF LUMPED THEM ALL
TOGETHER.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 215
MR. BURGESS: THEN I'LL OBJECT TO THE
FORM OF THE QUESTION, BASED UPON ITS
OVERBREADTH AND AMBIGUITY. AND, ON THAT
BASIS, I THINK THAT YOU'RE IMPLICATING
POTENTIALLY SOME ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT
AND/OR ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRESENTATIONS AS FAR
AS THE LEAGUE AND U.S. SUGAR ARE CONCERNED,
WITH OTHER PRESENTATIONS SUCH AS SAGE,
AUDUBON, AND WETLANDS CONFERENCE, AND I
DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO THAT.
A. SO ---
MS. PONZOLI: I CAN ASK HIM IF HE MET
WITH EXPERTS AND ATTORNEYS PRIOR.
MR. BURGESS: OH, SURE.
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT
QUESTION IS IMPROPER.
MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO ANSWER. I JUST THINK IT'S
CONFUSING.
A. FIRST OF ALL, I WOULDN'T LUMP ALL THOSE TOGETHER,
BECAUSE -- BUT WE CAN GO THROUGH. YOU SAID
SPECIFICALLY SAGE?
Q. THE LAST SAGE PRESENTATION, THE ONE THAT WE'RE
GOING TO---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 216
A. CORRECT.
Q. --- YOU KNOW, DISCUSS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE YOU'VE
REFERRED TO IT SEVERAL TIMES TODAY, AND I HAVE,
TOO. LET'S TAKE THAT ONE SPECIFICALLY. DID YOU
MEET WITH OTHER EXPERTS, AND/OR ATTORNEYS, PRIOR
TO THAT PRESENTATION?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU MEET WITH BOTH OTHER EXPERTS
AND ATTORNEYS?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. WHOM DID YOU MEET WITH?
A. I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHO WAS -- THERE WAS
ACTUALLY -- JUST PRIOR TO THE ACTUAL SAGE MEETING
ITSELF, I WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SCIENCE ADVISORY
REVIEW BOARD FOR EPA, AND I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS,
AND SO I ACTUALLY PREPARED THAT PRESENTATION,
WHICH I DID MYSELF. I DO ALL OF MY OWN
PRESENTATIONS, WITH THE HELP OF MY STAFF---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. --- AND MET JUST BRIEFLY -- BECAUSE I ACTUALLY HAD
VERY DIFFICULT CONNECTIONS, I WAS IN NEW ORLEANS,
AND I FLEW TO MIAMI, AND ACTUALLY ROI)E UP WITH
RICK. AND I MET IN MIAMI -- THERE WERE A NUMBER
OF PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM WHO WERE HAVING A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 217
CONSULTANT'S MEETING. OKAY, SO -- AND I DON'T --
I DID NOT SIT IN THAT MEETING, PER SE. I COULDN'T
TELL YOU ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THERE.
THEY WERE DOING WHATEVER THEY WERE DOING, AND I
SAT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY FINISHED THEIR
PRESENTATIONS, AND THEN I CAME IN AND MADE A BRIEF
OVERVIEW OF WHAT I WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE NEXT
DAY, AND THEN DROVE UP. AND THEN WE -- I MADE THE
PRESENTATION, SO.
Q. ARE YOU -- YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT MR. BURGESS AND
MR. GREEN WERE THERE?
MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. BUT I DON"T --- MR. GREEN
MAY HAVE BEEN THERE, AND MAY HAVE LE-FT. I CAN'T
REMEMBER IF HE LEFT EARLY OR NOT. I DON'T
REMEMBER IF HE STAYED FOR THE PRESENTATION OR
NOT.
Q. YOU'RE NOT IMPLYING THAT ANYONE ON THIS SIDE OF
THE TABLE WAS THERE?
A. NOT THAT I REMEMBER, BUT THERE WERE SOME OTHER
PEOPLE THERE. I BELIEVE PHIL---
MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTION.
MS. PONZOLI: OH, HE CAN ANSWER WHO WAS
THERE. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL HIM HE CAN'T
TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING, MR. BURGESS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 218
MR. BURGESS: RIGHT. RIGHT.
MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU INSTRUCTING HIM
NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE MEETING?
MR. BURGESS: YES.
MS. PONZOLI: ON WHAT BASIC?
MR. BURGESS: ON THE BASIS THAT HE
IDENTIFIED IT, AND I KNOW IT AS AN ATTORNEY
CONSULTANT MEETING. THE MAN CONSULTS FOR THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. HE SHARES A
COMMON INTEREST WITH RESPECT TO THE ATTORNEYS
AND CONSULTANTS THAT CONSULT WITH THE LEAGUE.
I MEAN, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE IDENTIFIES
PERSONS THAT WERE THERE MAY IMPLICATE MY
LITIGATION STRATEGY WITH RESPECT TO THE
PEOPLE THAT I CALL TOGETHER. HE HAS
TESTIFIED HE WAS NOT AT THE MEETING; HE
SAT IN THE HALLWAY.
MS. PONZOLI: BUT HE ENTERED THE ROOM
AND HE SAW THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM AND
PARTICIPATED IN THE MEETING TO THAT EXTENT.
MR. BURGESS: YES, WITH RESPECT TO
MAKING HIS BRIEF OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS
GOING TO DO THE NEXT DAY, AND IF THAT'S
YOU'RE ASKING WHO WAS THERE FOR THAT MEETING,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 219
THAT'S FINE, BUT NOT WITH RESPECT TO THE
PREVIOUS MEETING WHICH HE SAID FIE DIDN'T
ATTEND.
MS. PONZOLI: HE CAN'T TELL ME WHO WAS
THERE FOR THE PREVIOUS MEETING?
MR. BURGESS: THATTS RIGHT.
MS. PONZOLI: AND YOU'RE INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO ANSWER?
MR. BURGESS: YES.
MS. PONZOLI: BECAUSE IT REVEALS
ATTORNEY/CLIENT PRIVILEGE?
MR. BURGESS: DO WE REALLY NEED TO
HAVE THIS TETE A TETE ON THE RECORD, MS.
PONZOLI?
MS. PONZOLI: OH, YES. WE MOST
CERTAINLY DO NEED TO HAVE THIS TETE-A-TETE ON
THE RECORD, BECAUSE THIS IS PRECISELY THE
TYPE OF INFORMATION THAT BOTH THE LEAGUE AND
THE COOPERATIVE ARE SEEKING FROM THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT ON SOME SIGNIFICANT MEETINGS THAT
I'VE BELIEVE REFLECT ATTORNEY-CLIENT
PRIVILEGES, AND I FIND IT VERY, VERY AMAZING
THAT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO SEEK THIS TYPE OF
INFORMATION. SO, I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT VERY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 220
CLEAR WHAT I AM BEING PROHIBITED FROM
OBTAINING, BECAUSE I HAVE THIS STINKY LITTLE
FEELING THAT THESE THINGS CUT BOTH WAYS, SO I
JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT.
MR. BURGESS: IT'S CLARIFIED. CONSIDER
IT VERY CLEAR. I'M INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO
ANSWER TO TELL YOU WHO WAS AT THE MEETING,
THAT HE'S IDENTIFIED AS THE ATTORNEY-
CONSULTANT MEETING, WHICH PRECEDED HIS BRIEF
OVERVIEW OF WHAT HE WAS GOING TO PRESENT THE
NEXT DAY.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. GREEN: I GUESS I NEED TO SAY
SOMETHING FOR THE RECORD, SINCE IT'S ALMOST
FIVE.
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T CARE WHO'S AT
THE NEXT---
MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, I DON'T RECALL
THE INSTANCE IN WHICH YOU MADE A SIMILAR
STATEMENT THAT I -- I HAVENFT BEEN TO ALL
THE DEPOSITIONS WITH REGARD TO YOUR
WITNESSES. I'LL JUST SAY, ONE, I DON'T
RECALL THAT. NUMBER TWO, FOR THE RECORD,
I WAS NOT AT THE MEETING IN MIAMI THAT YOU'RE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 221
TALKING ABOUT. I'D LIKE TO JUST STATE THAT.
WE CAN GO AHEAD.
MR. KILLINGER: NOR WAS I.
WITNESS: I SAID I DIDN'T -- I WASN'T
SURE WHETHER HE WAS THERE. I THINK I -- HE
APPARENTLY CLARIFIED THAT.
MS. PONZOLI: SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING,
MR. GREEN IS YOU WOULD CONTINUE TO ASSERT
YOUR RIGHT TO OBTAIN THE -- THE ATTENDEES AT
SUCH MEETINGS?
MR. GREEN: IF IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR ME
TO OBTAIN THEM, AND AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW THE
FACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF WHICH YOU'RE
SPEAKING. SURE. THAT'S WHY I'M STATING
THIS. I'M NOT WAIVING ANY RIGHT TO OBTAIN
WHATEVER DISCOVERY WE'RE ENTITLED TO, BUT I
DON'T HAVE THE HISTORY OF THIS THAT YOU AND
MR. BURGESS HAVE. I JUST WANTED TO STATE
THAT SO IT WOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A WAIVER
IN LIGHT OF WHAT YOU SAID.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK -- I THINK
THAT IT MAY BE THAT IT IS THE COOPERATIVE
THAT IS SEEKING THE MEMBERS OF CERTAIN
MEETINGS, AND---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 222
MR. GREEN: THAT MAY BE.
MS. PONZOLI: YEAH, IT MAY BE.
MR. GREEN: I CAN'T DEBATE THAT WITH
YOU, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS OF THE
MATTER.
MS. PONZOLI: YOUR INTERROGATORIES, YOU
DON'T REMEMBER YOUR INTERROGATORIES?
MR. GREEN: I'LL GO BACK AND LOOK AT
THOSE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY, YOU MIGHT BE
INTERESTED.
MR. GREEN: SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA,
THOUGH.
MR. REID: WHO WAS AT THE NEXT MEETING
IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
MS. PONZOLI: I KNOW. MR. REID, I WILL
ASK.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU HAVE NOT, DR. RICHARDSON,
BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO TELL ME WHO WAS AT THE
MEETING WHERE YOU WALKED INTO THE ROOM AND PEOPLE
WERE SITTING THERE. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WAS NOT
THERE, SO WHO WAS? MR. BURGESS, I ASSUME WAS
THERE.
A. MR. BURGESS WAS THERE. JOHN DAVIS WAS THERE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 223
Q. OKAY.
A. IT WAS ACTUALLY VERY SPARSE BY THAT TIME, BECAUSE
IT WAS VERY LATE IN THE DAY. THERE WAS NOT AS
MUCH INTEREST AS YOU MIGHT THINK.
MR. REID: CAN WE ASK WHO HE PASSED
AS HE WALKED IN THE ROOM, SINCE THE MEETING
WAS TECHNICALLY OVER, AND THE PRIVILEGE
ENDED?
A. UH---
MS. PONZOLI: ARE YOU GOING TO INSTRUCT
HIM NOT TO INDICATE WHO PASSED HIM IN THE
HALL, MR. BURGESS?
MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT.
MR. REID: IT MUST BE GETTING NEAR FIVE
O'CLOCK.
A. I'M NOT SURE. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OTHER
PERSON, BUT I'M JUST NOT---
Q. YOU DID IT TO AN AUDIENCE OF TWO, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. IT MAY HAVE FALL -- IT WAS VERY FEW. I MEAN, IT
WASN'T MORE THAN FOUR. IT MAY HAVE BEEN THREE,
BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS VERY FEW. IT WAS---
Q. WAS MR. LARSON THERE?
A. NO, I DO NOT---
Q. MR. PARSONS?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 224
A. HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT I'M THINKING OF, BUT I HAVE
A RECOLLECTION THAT HE MAY HAVE HAD TO LEAVE EARLY
FOR A FLIGHT CONNECTION---
Q. HOW DID---
A. --- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW --
THEY PROBABLY GET TIRED OF HEARING THIS
INFORMATION.
Q. WHO ELSE DID PRESENTATIONS AT THAT MEETING?
A. AT MY MEETING?
Q. AT THE ONE THAT YOU WAITED IN LINE TO DO YOUR
PRESENTATION.
A. I WAS THE ONLY ONE. I WAS THE TAIL-E:ND. I CAME
IN LATE. IT WAS -- IT WAS IN THE EVENING. IT WAS
PAST SUPPER TIME, IF MY RECOLLECTION IS CORRECT.
Q. SO, YOU DID THE PRESENTATION THAT YOU WERE
OFFERING AT SAGE THE NEXT DAY?
A. CORRECT.
Q. WAS IT CRITIQUED OR COMMENTED ON?
A. NOT MUCH.
Q. APPLAUDED?
A. NO.
Q. NONE OF THE ABOVE?
A. NO.
Q. I THINK YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE HAD OTHER
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 225
MEETINGS IN THIS -- IN THIS REGARD. I WOULD LIKE
TO KNOW WHAT THOSE HAVE BEEN.
A. IN WHICH REGARD?
Q. WHERE YOU HAVE MET WITH OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR THE
LEAGUE, AND/OR THE COOPERATIVE.
A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, I HAVE MET A NUMBER OF
TIMES FOR EQC, WHICH THERE COULD HAVE BEEN --
WELL, THERE WERE IN CERTAIN INSTANCES, CONSULTANTS
THERE.
Q. WHO WAS THERE?
A. WELL, DR. PATRICK AND DR. DAVIS PRIMARILY ARE THE
TWO. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER PEOPLE, BUT
SOME OF THESE MEETINGS ARE TWO OR THREE YEARS OLD,
SO ITTS HARD TO SAY.
Q. MR. BARBER?
A. OH, YES. MR. BARBER WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE.
Q. HOW ABOUT MR. LARSON?
A. AS I SAID, MR. LARSON AND I HAVE CROSSED PATHS
VERY LITTLE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, OTHER THAN
MAYBE AT A SAGE MEETING WHERE HE'S I14 ONE PLACE
AND I'M IN ANOTHER.
Q. SURE.
A. WE'VE NOT -- WE'VE NOT MET.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW OFTEN YOU HAVE MET WITH
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 226
DR. DAVIS?
A. UH, A FEW TIMES. I DON'T KNOW, A HALF A DOZEN
TIMES, BUT NOT -- NOT SINGLY. PRIMARILY IN THESE
MEETINGS, HE WOULD BE IN THE SAME ROOM THAT I
WOULD BE IN.
Q. HAS DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS FOR
THE LEAGUE OR THE COOPERATIVE EVER PREPARED
VISUALS OR SLIDES OR EXHIBITS FOR YOU' TO USE AT A
PRESENTATION?
A. I BELIEVE IN '89, WHEN I WAS WORKING FOR THE
LEAGUE, SOME GENERAL 3-D GRAPHICS WERE PRODUCED
PRIMARILY OF BACKGROUNDS, WATER MANAGEMENT DATA.
NONE OF MY DATA, PER SE, THAT I CAN REMEMBER.
THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OR TWO INSTANCES. MOST OF
IT WAS WHAT I CALL GENERIC RAINFALL DATA, SOUTH
FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DAI'A, BECAUSE,
AT THAT TIME, WE DID NOT HAVE THE COMPUTER SYSTEM
AVAILABLE TO PRODUCE SLIDES---
Q. WAS THIS---
A. --- AND HE DID.
Q. OKAY. WAS THIS FOR A PRESENTATION TO THE WATER
MANAGEMENT BOARD?
A. ONE OF THEM, YES, IT WAS.
Q. HAD DR. DAVIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER CONSULTANTS
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 227
SUBSEQUENTLY PREPARED VISUALS OR SLIDES OR
GRAPHICS FOR YOU TO USE?
A. IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, I HAVE PRODUCED ALL OF MY
OWN SLIDES, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. THERE MAY BE ONE OR
TWO SLIDES THAT ARE AN EXCEPTION TO THAT. BUT
I'VE GOT OVER, AS YOU KNOW, FIFTEEN HUNDRED
SLIDES. I CAN'T REALLY ATTEST TO THAT. I
ACTUALLY HAVE TEN THOUSAND SLIDES, BUT IT TOOK ME
A LONG TIME TO SEPARATE THOSE FROM THE EVERGLADES
SLIDES.
MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT, DR. RICHARDSON,
I THINK WE'RE A LITTLE PAST FIVE AND I FEEL
THE ROOM GROWING RESTLESS, SO WE HAD
BETTER---
WITNESS: THE ANIMALS ARE HUNGRY.
MS. PONZOLI: WE'LL START AGAIN IN THE
MORNING AT NINE.
WITNESS: AT NINE?
MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES).
------------------------------------------------------
(THEREUPON, THIS PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF
DR. RICHARDSON WAS RECESSED AT 5:06 P.M., TO
BE RESUMED AT 9:00 A.M. ON JANUARY 12, 1993.)
------------------------------------------------------
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 228
THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION
OF DR. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON WAS TAKEN ON THE
4TH DAY OF JANUARY, 1993, BEGINNING AT OR AROUND
9:00 A.M. IN THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH
ROAD, THE WALKER SUITE, DURHAM, NORTH
CAROLINA, AND WAS REPORTED BY PAMELA S. LILES,
A NOTARY PUBLIC.
MS. PONZOLI: MR. McCAUGHAN -- I WOULD
LIKE TO PUT ON THE RECORD -- MR. McCAUGHAN
PHONED AND SAID THAT HE'S TIED UP IN A
CONFERENCE CALL, AND THAT WE COULD START
WITHOUT HIM, AND THAT HE WOULD BE HERE AS
SOON AS HE WAS ABLE.
MR. BURGESS: SUZAN, I WOULD ALSO LIKE
TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE RECORD, IF I MAY.
YES?
MS. PONZOLI: (GESTURES.)
MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE GESTURING MY WAY.
IN MAKING MY OBJECTIONS YESTERDAY CONCERNING
INSTRUCTING THE WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER WHO WAS
PRESENT AT VARIOUS LITIGATION, CONSULTANT AND
OTHER MEETINGS, I WAS FOLLOWING THE LEAD OF
THE UNITED STATES SET IN THE FEDERAL SUIT,
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 229
SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARD TO THE FINLEY AND
WALKER DEPOSITIONS. HOWEVER, SINCE THE
STATEMENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES YESTERDAY
ON THE RECORD THAT DISCLOSURE IS A TWO-WAY
STREET, I AM NOT GOING TO INSTRUCT
DR. RICHARDSON NOT TO ANSWER SUCH QUESTIONS
CONCERNING THE NAMES OF PERSONS WHO WERE IN
ATTENDANCE AT THESE MEETINGS, INCLUDING THE
MEETINGS ABOUT WHICH HE SPOKE YESTERDAY, WITH
ONE EXCEPTION THAT I AM AWARE OF, ONE MEETING
THAT DR. RICHARDSON ATTENDED, THAT I ALSO
ATTENDED, WAS ATTENDED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT
NOW A LISTED TESTIFYING EXPERT FOR THE
LEAGUE, AND I THINK PURSUANT TO CASE LAW
UNTIL HE IS, IF EVER, LISTED AS A TESTIFYING
WITNESS, HIS IDENTITY MAY NOT BE DISCLOSED
THROUGH THIS WITNESS. THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I GUESS -- THAT'S
QUITE AN INTERESTING CONCESSION, BECAUSE YOU
ACTUALLY DIDN'T CONCEDE MUCH, YOU KEPT BACK
THE ONE THING THAT WE HAD ARGUED OVER
YESTERDAY. BUT IF I HEAR YOU CORRECTLY,
YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT I MAY
ASK HIM WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT THE PRIOR
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 230
MEETING. I WILL NOT, HOWEVER, IN REFERENCE
TO THE ISSUES THAT MR. GREEN AND I WERE
ALLUDING TO IN REGARD TO THE SETTLEMENT
DISCUSSION MEETINGS, WAIVE ANY OBJECTIONS OR
PRIVILEGES THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO
ASSERT. SO, I WANT TO BE FAIR WITH YOU IN
THAT REGARD. OUR POSITION REGARDING THOSE
MEETINGS IS NOT GOING TO BE ALTERED BY YOUR
STATEMENT. BUT IF I UNDERSTAND YOU
CORRECTLY, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT YOU HAVE
WITHDRAWN YOUR INSTRUCTION TO YOUR WITNESS TO
ANSWER, EXCEPT AS TO THE ONE INDIVIDUAL YOU
INDICATE IS A -- I THINK I CAN HAVE THE
IDENTITY OF A CONSULTANT; I JUST DON'T THINK
I CAN HAVE HIS DEPOSITION, MR. BURGESS, SO I
THINK I WOULD ASK YOU TO RECONSIDER THAT.
MR. BURGESS: I DISAGREE.
MS. PONZOLI: SO, YOU ARE INSTRUCTING
HIM NOT TO GIVE ME THAT PARTICULAR CON --
YOU'RE CALLING THIS A CONSULTANT, IS THAT
ACCURATE?
MR. BURGESS: RIGHT, A NON-TESTIFYING
CONSULTANT.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 231
MR. BURGESS: AND I DISAGREE. I THINK
IT IS A MAJOR CONCESSION ON OUR PART, WHICH
I UNDERSTAND IS GOING TO OPERATE AS A
QUID PRO QUO WITH RESPECT TO CONSULTANT
MEETINGS AND THE NAMES OF PERSONS IN
ATTENDANCE AT CONSULTANT MEETINGS, IF THOSE
PERSONS ARE EITHER ATTORNEYS, CLIENTS, OR
LISTED AS TESTIFYING EXPERT WITNESSES. AND I
WOULD EXPECT THAT IF YOU HAVE NON-TESTIFYING
EXPERT CONSULTANTS YOU WOULD ALSO REFRAIN
FROM IDENTIFYING THEM BASED UPON THE INSTANCE
THAT I JUST MENTIONED.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, SINCE YOU'VE
OBVIOUSLY SPENT THE EVENING DISCUSSING THIS
WITH MR. GREEN AND HAD A PREPARED STATEMENT
TO READ, I SUGGEST WE GO OFF THE RECORD AND I
HAVE BRIEF MEETING WITH MY CO-RE:SPONDENTS AND
SEE IF WE WANT TO COME BACK WITH A POSITION
THAT WE'LL PUT ON THE RECORD.
MR. BURGESS: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
MS. PONZOLI: GOING BACK ON THE RECORD.
I THINK WE'RE GOING TO WANT TO TAKE THIS ON
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 232
A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT
WILLING TO ENTER SOME GLOBAL STIPULATION AT
THIS POINT, MR. BURGESS. BUT SINCE YOU HAVE
NARROWED YOUR INSTRUCTION ABOUT NOT
ANSWERING, THEN I THINK I WILL ASK
DR. RICHARDSON.
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. YOU WERE WAITING IN THE HALL AT THIS MEETING IN
PREPARATION FOR SORT OF A DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE
PRESENTATION, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE INDIVIDUAL YOUR
LAWYER HAS INSTRUCTED YOU NOT TO REVEAL -- I
ASSUME YOU KNOW WHO THIS PERSON WAS, DO YOU?
A. THE PERSON THAT I'M---
Q. THAT YOU'VE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO REVEAL.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THAT
PERSON, PLEASE TELL ME WHO WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT
THAT PRE-MEETING.
A. AT THE PRE-MEETING?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. WELL, SINCE I SAID I ONLY JUST SORT OF POPPED IN
AND SAID I WAS -- "I'M HERE." AND THEY SAID, "GO
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 233
OUT, WAIT IN THE HALLWAY." AND THEN, OF COURSE,
WHEN THE MEETING BROKE UP, I SAW SOME PEOPLE IN
THE ROOM. I DID NOT SEE ALL THE PEOPLE. THERE
WERE -- I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T TELL YOU THE TOTAL
NUMBER.
Q. TEN, MAYBE?
A. MAYBE TEN, MAYBE TWELVE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE TOTAL. I DIDN'T COUNT
THEM.
Q. WAS MR. WEDGWORTH ONE OF THEM?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER, SERIOUSLY.
Q. OKAY.
A. THE PEOPLE I CAN REMEMBER IN THAT ROOM WERE PHIL
PARSONS, JOHN DAVIS, RICK BURGESS, DE,
BREEDLOVE---
Q. DENNIS BREEDLOW?
A. BREEDLOVE, I THINK IT IS.
Q. OH.
A. COURTNEY HACKNEY. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER
ATTORNEYS THERE FROM PEEPLES, EARL AND BLANK, BUT
I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHICH ONES THEY WERE. I
JUST DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q. MS. CAVANAUGH OR MR. EARL?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 234
A. I THINK BILL EARL WAS THERE.
Q. MR. BUKER?
A. YES, HE WAS THERE.
Q. ANYONE FROM FLO SUN?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. AS I SAID, I REALLY DIDN'T -- I
REALLY---
Q. PETE ROSENDAHL?
A. YEAH, I THINK PETE ROSENDAHL WAS THERE.
Q. WE'VE GOT EIGHT. AND WE KNOW MR. GREEN WASN'T
THERE.
A. I THINK I TOLD YOU YESTERDAY I WASN'T SURE IF HE
WAS OR HE WASN'T.
Q. HE TOLD US.
MR. GREEN: NOT THAT I WOULDN'T
HAVE ENJOYED BEING THERE.
MS. PONZOLI: THEY DIDN'T INVITE
ME EITHER.
WITNESS: THEY DIDN'T INVITE ME
EITHER; I HAD TO WAIT IN THE HALLWAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WAS THERE A REASON FOR THAT,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I THINK -- WELL, THEY'VE HAD A NUMBER OF
CONSULTANT MEETINGS WHICH I AM NOT INVOLVED
WITH.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 235
Q. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT MEETING, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. OKAY. AND WERE THEY HAVING A PRESENTATION BY THIS
OTHER PERSON WHOM YOUFVE BEEN INSTRUCTED NOT TO
IDENTIFY?
A. I WAS NOT AT THAT MEETING.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW IF THE OTHER PERSON DID
A PRESENTATION OR NOT, YOU HAD NO EVIDENCE THAT
THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE ONE?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S ALL THE PEOPLE YOU CAN REMEMBER
AT THAT MEETING?
A. THAT'S ALL I CAN REMEMBER. AND I'D BE
SPECULATING, I MEAN, YOU KNOW. AND I MAY NOT BE
A HUNDRED PERCENT ACCURATE ON THOSE, -.1 MEAN. BUT
I -- YOU KNOW, IT'S REASONABLE -- IT'S A
REASONABLE LIST.
Q. OKAY. AND I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY THAT
MISTER -- YOU THINK, TO THE BEST OF YOUR
RECOLLECTION, APPROXIMATELY, MR. PARSONS,
MR. BURGESS, MR. DAVIS, MAY HAVE REMAINED BEHIND
TO HEAR YOUR DRY RUN OF YOUR SAGE PRESENTATION,
IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. YES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 236
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU WERE EXCLUDED FROM THAT FIRST
MEETING?
A. WELL, AS I SAID, IT'S -- FOR THE FIRST -- WELL,
SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THE GRANT, WHILE I HAVE
ADVISED THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE ON SOME MATTERS AS
TO THE EXPERTS THEY MIGHT CONSIDER, OR SOME
SPECIFIC MATTERS, OR DOCUMENTS, OR OTHER TYPES OF
INFORMATION, I HAVE NOT BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE
CONSULTANTS; I HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING IN THE FIELD
WITH THEM, NOR HAVE I -- THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS
TO THAT RELATED TO REVIEWING, AS I MENTIONED THE
OTHER DAY, THE ENTRY INTO THE PARK; I HAVE LOOKED
AT SOME OF THAT DOCUMENTATION. BUT IN TERMS OF
THE WORK THAT THE CONSULTANTS ARE DOING, I'M
REALLY -- OTHER THAN A VERY CURSORY WAY, I'M
REALLY NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND
THAT'S BEEN KEPT THAT WAY, BOTH FROM 'THEIR POINT
OF VIEW AND FROM MY POINT OF VIEW. IT'S ONLY
DONE, I GUESS, AS A WAY TO KEEP SEPARATE THE
A. RESEARCH COMPONENT AND WHAT CONSULTANCIES I DO
FOR THEM. AND, SO, I THINK BASICALLY IN THAT
PARTICULAR CASE, I MEAN, I'M JUST NOT -- I'M NOT
PRIVY TO THE INFORMATION OR WHAT THEY'VE DISCUSSED
IN TERMS OF THEIR CONSULTANCY WORK.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 237
Q. WAS THIS EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU AS AN ACTUAL
STRATEGY THAT THE VARIOUS CONSULTANTS WOULD BE
KEPT SEPARATE, EXCEPT IN CERTAIN FORMAL LINES OF
COMMUNICATION?
A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU EARLIER, WHEN I STARTED WITH
GEORGE -- WORKING WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH, WHO AT
THAT TIME WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, INITIALLY, I BASICALLY POINTED OUT THAT
THE UNIVERSITY WOULD WORK ON THE BASIS THAT THE
INFORMATION WE WOULD GATHER WOULD BE OPEN AND IN
OPEN FORUM; THAT WE WOULD HAVE STUDENTS INVOLVED;
AND THAT WE WOULD HAVE JUNIOR FACULTY MEMBERS
INVOLVED, AND THEY MUST BE ALLOWED TO PUBLISH;
AND -- OTHERWISE, THE UNIVERSITY -- WE WOULD BE
INTERESTED MORE IN THE BASIC RESEARCH THAN WHAT'S
GOING ON. AND GEORGE WAS ABSOLUTELY 'INSISTENT,
WHILE HE WAS HEAD OF THE LEAGUE, AND ALSO EARLY
ON, AND STILL, AS FAR AS I KNOW IN MY EVEN MORE
RECENT CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM, THAT THAT IS THE
APPROPRIATE TACK TO TAKE. SO, FROM MY POINT OF
VIEW, I THINK IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE; AND FROM
THEIR POINT OF VIEW, IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ONE. SO,
FOR THE RESEARCH PART, WE'VE TRIED TO KEEP THOSE
AS SEPARATE AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE KEPT THEM
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 238
ABREAST, AND I DO THAT CONTINUALLY WHEN THEY ASK,
OR ANY ORGANIZATION ASKS WHAT ARE MY FINDINGS TO
DATE, I DO MAKE THOSE PRESENTATIONS. BUT I THINK
IT WAS -- SO, I THINK I'VE ANSWERED -- DID I
ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?
Q. NO, SIR, I DON'T THINK YOU DID. I THINK I ASKED
YOU WAS IT EVER EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY -- OR THAT
THERE WOULD BE FORMAL LINES OF COMMUNICATION
REGARDING KEEPING THE CONSULTANTS SEPARATE.
YOU'VE EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT MR. WEDGWORTH WANTED,
WHICH HE HAS EXPLAINED TO ME. AND YOU HAVE
EXPLAINED TO ME WHY YOU FIND IT AN APPEALING
PROCEDURE/PROTOCOL FOR YOUR PURPOSES AND FOR
THE UNIVERSITY'S PURPOSES. BUT MY QUESTION WAS,
DID MR. EARL, OR ANY OTHER ATTORNEY OR CONSULTANT
ON BEHALF OF THAT FIRM OR THOSE CLIENTS, EXPLAIN
TO YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE A PROTOCOL OF THIS
TYPE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY SPECIFICS, EXCEPT FOR THE
FACT THAT I THINK FROM SEVERAL MEETINGS THAT WERE
HELD, I MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR IN TERMS OF MY AREAS
OF RESEARCH THAT THEY WERE OPEN TO PUBLIC FORUM.
AND I THINK THE ATTORNEYS, IN CERTAIN AREAS, FELT
THAT THEY NEEDED TO HAVE, I GUESS, ATTORNEY/CLIENT
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 239
PRIVILEGE, AND SO THEREFORE THEY MADE A DECISION
EARLY ON TO GO A SEPARATE WAY, AND USE A DIFFERENT
SET OF CONSULTANTS TO DO SOME TYPES OF WORK. AND
SINCE MY -- ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WENT TO THE EPD,
SINCE MY WORK WAS GOING TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
ANYWAYS, THEY COULD USE THAT WORK AND THEN USE --
UTILIZE MY EXPERTISE TO HELP THEM SIMPLY SELECT
OTHER PEOPLE, AND TO REVIEW DOCUMENTS---
Q. OKAY.
A. --- SO, I'M SURE -- I MEAN, QUITE SURE THAT BY
UTILIZING THAT STRATEGY, ESSENTIALLY, THAT IT
KEPT ME SOMEWHAT IN THE DARK AS TO WHAT THEY WERE
DOING, WHICH AT TIMES, YOU KNOW, FOR THEM, I
SUPPOSE, WAS A BENEFIT.
Q. OKAY. SO, THESE WERE MEETINGS HELD IN 188, 189,
WHERE THIS SEPARATION OF SOME CONSULTANTS TO DO
SOME TASKS, AND THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, AND YOU
AND YOUR PEOPLE TO DO OTHER TASKS WAS DISCUSSED,
AND THE INTERFACE BETWEEN THE TWO?
A. WELL, THEY WEREN'T DISCUSSED WITH MY STAFF. I
MEAN, BASICALLY, THEY DISCUSSED IT WITH ME. MY
STAFF HAS ALWAYS BEEN KEPT ABSOLUTELY -- THEY HAVE
NOT BEEN INVOLVED VERY MUCH WITH THAT.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY "VERY MUCH," WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 240
A. THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED MEETINGS. THE EXCEPTION TO
THAT, I THINK, MAY BE DR. RADER, WHO MAY HAVE
ATTENDED A MEETING OR TWO. BUT DR. QUALLS AND MY
STUDENTS AND DR. CRAFT, AND BOB JOHNSON, OTHER
THAN JUST, SAY, MAYBE AN OCCASIONAL MEETING OR A
LUNCH OR SOMETHING, THEY HAVE NOT ATTENDED FORMAL
MEETINGS, AND THAT WAS THE WAY -- WE HAVE HAD
SOME -- WE HAVE HAD -- THEY'VE HAD SOME CONTACT
WHEN, IN FACT, THEY WOULD BE OUT IN THE FIELD --
AS WE'VE HAD WITH ALMOST ANYONE -- THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, THE CO-OP, THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. ALL SORTS OF VISITORS COME
TO OUR SITE AND ASK CAN WE GO ALONG ON A BOAT RIDE
AND SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, OR CAN WE TAKE -- CAN
YOU TAKE US OUT IN THE FIELD. AND SO WE'VE HAD A
HOST OF PEOPLE, EPD PEOPLE, WHO ON SOME REGULAR
BASIS -- WE JUST DON'T -- WE'RE NOT A TOUR OUTFIT,
SO WE BASICALLY KEEP THAT A -- SO, I'M SAYING THEY
MAY HAVE BEEN OUT IN THE FIELD WITH THEM FOR AN
AFTERNOON WHEN THEY WERE DOING SOME WORK.
Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND THE PERSON, DR. RICHARDSON, WHO
HAS -- YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO NAME AT
THAT ONE MEETING. WAS THIS A CONSULTANT YOU HAD
RECOMMENDED?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 241
A. ARE WE BACK TO---
Q. YEAH, WE'RE BACK TO -- I THINK THIS MAY BE THE
LAST QUESTION ON THAT ONE.
MR. BURGESS: YOU'RE RIGHT.
A. YES, I BELIEVE SO.
Q. OH. OF THE EXPERTS THAT THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE AND/OR THE CO-OP ARE USING IN THIS MATTER,
I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHICH OF THEM YOU HAVE
RECOMMENDED TO THEM.
A. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL OF THE EXPERTS THEY ARE
USING, SO.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET ME READ THEM TO YOU.
A. I THINK---
Q. I'LL JUST READ THEM---
A. ALL RIGHT.
Q. --- IT WON'T TAKE THAT LONG. WE'LL GO THROUGH THE
LEAGUE'S LIST FIRST, AND THEN WE'LL GO THROUGH THE
CO-OP'S LIST.
A. OKAY.
Q. DO YOU RECALL WHY YOU RECOMMENDED THE SECRET
EXPERT, DR. RICHARDSON?
A. DO I RECALL WHY?
Q. YES, UH-HUH (YES).
A. YES.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 242
Q. WHY?
MR. BURGESS: DON'T ANSWER IT.
MS. PONZOLI: BASED ON THAT WOULD
REVEAL SOME STRATEGY OF THE LEAGUE?
MR. BURGESS: YES. THIS IN RESPONSE
TO MY QUESTION. YOU'VE GOT IT.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. POLOPOLUS, DID YOU RECOMMEND
DR. POLOPOLUS? I'M JUST GOING TO GIVE THEIR
NAMES, AND YOU CAN TELL ME YES OR NO.
A. I'D LIKE TO -- DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS ONE?
LOOKING AT IT AT THE SAME TIME, IT WOULD HELP ME
WITH THAT.
Q. NO, I HAVE A SINGLE COPY. I DON'T KNOW.
MS. PONZOLI: DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE A
LIST OF THE LEAGUE'S EXPERT WITNESSES AND
THE CO-OP'S EXPERT WITNESSES?
MR. KILLINGER: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM
I CAN GO GET IT.
MR. GREEN: I'VE GOT ONE IN MY ROOM.
A. DOES SOMEONE NEED ONE?
MS. PONZOLI: WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT --
DO YOU MIND GETTING YOURS AND I'LL JUST
START CALLING THEM OUT, THEN, UNTIL YOU GET
HERE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 243
WITNESS: THIS SOMETIMES HELPS ME.
MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU MIND IF WE DO THAT?
DO YOU WANT US TO WAIT FOR YOU, LEE?
MR. KILLINGER: YEAH, IT'LL JUST BE A
BRIEF SECOND.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
(MR. KILLINGER LEAVES THE ROOM
BRIEFLY TO GO GET A DOCUMENT.)
MS. PONZOLI: YOU CAN START LOOKING SO
THAT IT'LL GO FASTER.
WITNESS: NOW, THE QUESTION IS, WHICH
ONES---
MS. PONZOLI: I'M GOING TO WANT TO KNOW
WHICH OF THESE PEOPLE YOU RECOMMENDED.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
MR. KILLINGER: IS THAT THE RIGHT DATE
ON THERE?
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE
RIGHT ONE.
MR. KILLINGER: IT MAY NOT BE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 244
MS. PONZOLI: IT'S THE PRELIMINARY
DISCLOSURE. THERE'S ABOUT THREE OF THEM,
LEE.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, WE CAN -- CAN WE STAND
TOGETHER AND JUST GO OVER THEM PRETTY RAPIDLY,
DR. RICHARDSON; WOULD THAT WORK FOR YOU?
A. DO YOU HAVE A LIST YOURSELF NOW, OR NO?
Q. UH-HUH (YES). WELL, NO, I DON'T HAVE A LIST, I'LL
JUST STAND---
A. OH, OKAY. YOU WANT TO---
Q. YOU KNOW, I'LL JUST COVER---
A. --- OKAY. YOU WANT TO LOOK OVER MY SHOULDER HERE.
OKAY.
I'LL LOOK OVER YOUR SHOULDER, SURE, WE'LL JUST
MOVE RIGHT THROUGH THIS, BECAUSE I CAN'T IMAGE YOU
RECOMMENDED ALL THESE PEOPLE, YEAH.
DR. RICHARDSON, MY QUESTION IS, IS WHICH OF
THESE EXPERTS DID YOU RECOMMEND TO THE LEAGUE, AND
I'LL JUST CALL OUT THE NAME AND YOU CAN SAY YES OR
NO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 245
A. OKAY.
Q. DR. LEO POLOPOLUS?
A. NO.
Q. DR. JAMES RICHARDSON?
A. NO.
Q. DR. JOHN DAVIS?
A. NO.
Q. DR. MICHAEL DENNIS?
A. NO.
Q. DOC -- NO -- MR. HOWELL?
A. NO.
Q. MR. LARSON?
A. NO.
Q. DR. PATRICK?
A. I MENTIONED HIS NAME.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU -- YOU WERE THE ONE WHO
INTRODUCED DR. PATRICK, OR YOU JUST MENTIONED HIS
NAME?
A. WELL, THEY'VE ASKED -- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, I
HAVE BEEN ASKED FROM TIME TO TIME CERTAIN PEOPLE,
AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY CONTACTED THEM FIRST, I
DON'T KNOW. I CAN ONLY SAY WHETHER I RECOMMENDED
THEM OR NOT.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. PATRICK FOR?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 246
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
HE NEVER SAID HE RECOMMENDED HIM FOR
ANYTHING.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT DID YOU MENTION DR. PATRICK
FOR---
A. I SAID---
Q. --- DR. RICHARDSON?
A. --- I SAID HE WAS ONE OF THE LEADING WETLANDS SOIL
SCIENTISTS IN THE COUNTRY IN BIOGEOCHEMICAL
CYCLING.
Q. OKAY. IS HE BEING USED FOR THOSE PURPOSES, TO
YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. I ONLY KNOW IN GENERAL TERMS OF WHAT HE'S DOING.
Q. WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE DR. PATRICK IS DOING?
A. SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THAT I'M DOING. IN
GENERAL, HE'S REVIEWING DOCUMENTS FOR THE GROUP.
I THINK HE MADE A PRESENTATION ON -- AT THE SAGE
MEETING -- ON THE CALCIUM WORK HE WAS DOING.
AND HE ORIGINALLY DID THE CESIUM 137 WORK FOR
A. DR. REDDY SINCE DR. REDDY CANNOT DO THAT WORK IN
HIS LABORATORY.
Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK DONE ANY MERCURY WORK, TO
YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IN THE EAA?
A. I SAW A PRESENTATION THAT HE GAVE, I BELIEVE, AT A
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 247
MERCURY CONFERENCE IN FLORIDA WHERE HE PRESENTED
SOME DATA. AND I BELIEVE THAT DATA WAS TAKEN ON
SOME CROP SPECIES, AND I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN THE
EAA. SO, HE HAD -- HIS LABORATORY HAD ANALYZED
SOME MERCURY.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER COLLABORATED WITH DR. PATRICK ON ANY
MERCURY WORK?
A. NO, I HAVE NOT.
Q. OKAY. HAS DR. PATRICK EVER REVIEWED ANY MERCURY
WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE?
A. THAT'S HARD TO SAY.
Q. WELL, THAT YOU KNEW THAT HE WAS REVIEWING, NOT
THAT HE -- YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT YOU WERE AWARE
OF?
A. NOTHING HE'S EVER INFORMED ME.
Q. RIGHT. OR, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU SENT TO HIM FOR
REVIEW?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. IS TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS DR. PATRICK
DOING ANY FIELDWORK ON LIMESTONE DITCHES?
A. I THINK HE HAS A PROJECT THAT HE-S WORKING WITH,
I THINK, IN CONJUNCTION WITH ONE OF THE SUGAR
COMPANIES. I BELIEVE HE HAS A FIELD PROJECT THAT
HE'S WORKING ON.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 248
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE THAT'S LOCATED?
A. I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE; I HAVE NOT SEEN IT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT'S BEEN GOING ON?
A. I'D SAY YOU'RE PROBABLY TALKING A YEAR MAYBE,
SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. IT COULD BE A
LITTLE LONGER; IT COULD BE A LITTLE SHORTER, BUT
THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION.
Q. SURE. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY RESULTS FROM THAT
FIELDWORK?
A. I DON'T THINK I'VE SEEN -- THERE MAY HAVE BEEN
SOME GENERAL COMMENTS MADE ABOUT IT, BUT I DON'T
THINK I'VE SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT. I DONFT -- TO
MY KNOWLEDGE, I HAVEN'T. I'M TRYING THINK. I'VE
NOT SEEN ANYTHING WRITTEN ON THAT.
MR. GREEN: MS. PONZOLI, WE WOULDN'T
OBJECT TO YOU READING FROM THE LIST AND
PASSING BACK AND FORTH AND SITTING IN THE
SEAT THAT YOU BEGAN THE DEPOSITION FROM.
MS. PONZOLI: OH, I DON'T HAVE ANY
PROBLEM DOING IT THAT WAY, EITHER.
DR. RICHARDSON HAD WANTED TO READ FROM
THE LIST, MR. GREEN. IF YOU WOULD
RATHER I---
MR. GREEN: I UNDERSTAND.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 249
MS. PONZOLI: --- RETURN, I'LL BE HAPPY
TO.
MR. GREEN: I WOULD RATHER YOU RETURN,
THANK YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
(BY MS. PONZOLI) WHAT WERE THE GENERAL COMMENTS,
DR. RICHARDSON, THAT YOU REFERRED TO OF
DR. PATRICK OR ABOUT DR. PATRICK?
MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU LIFE TO GET
YOUR LIST, MR. GREEN, SO THAT WE WOULD BE
ABLE TO EACH HAVE ONE, OR WOULD YOU RATHER
YOUR WITNESS JUST ANSWER ME FROM, MY READING
OUT THE NAMES?
MR. GREEN: I THOUGHT HE HAD A COPY OF
THE LIST THERE?
MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S MY COPY.
MR. GREEN: OH.
MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
MR. GREEN: SURE, I'LL GET IT. GIVE ME
A. FIVE MINUTES.
WITNESS: ARE WE STILL ON THE RECORD, OR
ARE WE OFF THE RECORD?
MS. PONZOLI: NO, WE'RE OFF THE RECORD.
MR. BURGESS: WEFRE OFF THE RECORD.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 250
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
WITNESS: OKAY, WHERE ARE WE? OH, WE
NEVER GOT -- WE'RE STILL -- I ASSUME WE'RE
STILL ON PATRICK.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. WE'RE UP TO
DR. PATRICK, THE COMMENTS, THE QUESTION -- THE
PENDING---
MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU READ BACK
THE PENDING QUESTION TO DR. RICHARDSON---
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE PENDING QUESTION?
A. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
Q. WHAT'S THE MATTER? WHAT WERE THE GENERAL
COMMENTS? DO YOU REMEMBER, DR. RICHARDSON, THE
QUESTION?
(THEREUPON, THE QUESTION APPEARING
ON PAGE 249, LINES 7-9, INCLUSIVE,
WAS REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
A. THE GENERAL COMMENTS WERE -- AS I SAID, I HAVE NOT
SEEN ANY DATA ON THAT THE PROJECT. MY
RECOLLECTION WAS THE PROJECT WAS -- WAS BEING PUT
INTO PLACE, OR WAS IN PLACE, AND THAT THEY WERE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 251
STARTING TO COLLECT DATA AT THIS ONE FIELD
LOCATION, I BELIEVE IT WAS, AND SOME GENERAL
THINGS, I THINK, ABOUT THE SIZE OF IT AND SO
FORTH.
Q. WAS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT IT WAS BEING
SUCCESSFUL OR NOT?
A. I THINK THERE WAS SOME OPTIMISM, YES, THAT IT WAS
SUCCESSFUL.
Q. IS THIS ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES? REMEMBER, I KEPT
TRYING TO GET YOU TO TELL ME WHAT ALTERNATIVES YOU
WERE IN FAVOR OF?
A. I THINK THE USE OF LIMESTONE OR CALCIUM WAS
MENTIONED AS A POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE, NOT THE
SPECIFIC RESEARCH PROJECT. I THINK I WOULD HAVE
RECOMMENDED RESEARCH BE DONE ON THIS TYPE OF TOPIC
FOR SURE. BUT I CAN'T SAY THAT I SPECIFICALLY
MENTIONED THE EXACT APPROACH THEY'RE USING, BUT IT
WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I ASSUM@E.
Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT ENDORSING THIS PARTICULAR
ALTERNATIVE AT THIS TIME?
A. NO, NOT AS -- I'M ENDORSING THE IDEA OF DOING
AND TRYING AS MANY OF THESE TECHNIQUES AS
POSSIBLE TO COME UP WITH AS GOOD A SOLUTION AS
POSSIBLE.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 252
Q. IS THIS FIELD STUDY, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS IT A
FIELD APPLICATION OF LABORATORY WORK THAT
DR. PATRICK HAS DONE?
A. IT MAY VERY WELL BE AN EXTENSION OF WHAT HE
PRESENTED AS SOME LABORATORY WORK THAT HE HAD
DONE. THAT WOULD BE THE WAY THAT I WOULD ASSESS
THAT.
Q. OKAY. DR. RADER IS THE NEXT PERSON ON MY LIST.
DID YOU RECOMMEND THAT DR. RADER BE INCLUDED AMONG
THEIR TESTIFYING WITNESSES?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I DID
OR DIDN'T. I THINK IN TERMS---
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION BEFORE HE ANSWERS IT.
MS. PONZOLI: WHAT WAS WRONG WITH
THE FORM?
MR. BURGESS: THAT HE SOMEHOW OBJECTED
AS TO WHO -- THAT HE SOMEHOW RECOMMENDED AS
TO WHO SHOULD TESTIFY IN THIS CASE.
A. WITNESS: SO, THE QUESTION IS, DID I
RECOMMEND HIM?
MS. PONZOLI: YES, SIR.
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM, IF
THAT'S THE QUESTION.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 253
A. AS AN EXPERT, I THINK I MAY HAVE BEEN ASKED
WHETHER DR. RADER -- WAS IT MY OPINION WHETHER
DR. RADER -- I GUESS -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'D
SAY -- HIS WORK IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA WAS. YOU
KNOW, A LARGE -- WAS IT A LARGE DATABASE, HOW IT
WAS DONE, WHETHER HE WAS AN EXPERT IN THAT
PARTICULAR AREA; AND I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT HE
WOULD BE.
Q. ARE YOU INDICATING THAT THE ATTORNEYS SOLICITED
THE USE OF DR. RADER FROM YOU, IS THAT YOUR
TESTIMONY?
A. I THINK THEY -- NO, I'M NOT SURE -- I CAN'T
REMEMBER THE EXACT WAY IN WHICH THIS WAS DONE,
WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT -- AND I'M JUST TRYING
TO THINK OF HOW THAT WAS DONE. I THINK THEY
ACTUALLY WENT TO DR. RADER AND ASKED WHETHER HE
WOULD BE WILLING TO BE AN EXPERT IN THIS
PARTICULAR AREA.
OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, DID YOU
EVER SIT AND HELP PUT THE BIG PICTURE TOGETHER,
AND FIGURE OUT WHAT KINDS OF EXPERTS WERE NEEDED,
AND REBUTTAL EXPERTS, EXPERTS THAT HAD BEEN LISTED
BY OTHER PARTIES, DID YOU EVER PERFORM---
A. NO.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 254
Q. --- THAT FUNCTION?
A. NO.
Q. HOW DID YOU COME ABOUT RECOMMENDING EXPERTS TO THE
ATTORNEYS?
A. WELL, ACTUALLY, I DID NOT GO IN WITH A PERCEIVED
IDEA OF RECOMMENDING EXPERTS. WHAT HAPPENS IS,
WHEN I WOULD MAKE PRESENTATIONS FROM TIME TO TIME,
THE WAY IT NORMALLY WOULD OCCUR IS PEOPLE WOULD
SAY WHAT DO I PERCEIVE AS AN AREA; WHAT IS AN AREA
OF INTEREST; WHAT IS AN AREA OF UNKNOWN; WHAT IS
AN AREA OF A POTENTIAL PROBLEM; WHAT IS -- AND AS
I WOULD REVIEW DOCUMENTS, WHAT IS AN AREA -- IN
SOME CASES, WHO MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE. LIKE I
MENTIONED THE OTHER DAY, BMPIS, WHO MIGHT BE
APPROPRIATE. AND I THINK -- WHEN I TALKED TO
THEM, I SAID IT WOULD BE MY RECOMMENDATION THAT
BMP'S WOULD BE LOOKED AT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. AND
THEY -- OF COURSE, THEN THEIR NEXT QUESTION IS, IF
THAT'S THE CASE, WHO WOULD DO THIS; AND I GAVE
A. THEM SOME NAMES. AND I WOULD QUITE OFTEN GIVE
THEM A LIST OF NAMES. AND THEY WOULD SELECT FROM
THAT LIST OF NAMES. QUITE OFTEN, THAT WAS A
VERBAL LIST. SOMETIMES IT WAS ONE NAME, SOMETIMES
IT WAS A LIST OF NAMES. BUT AFTER THEY WERE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 255
SELECTED, SOMETIMES I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THEY HAD
SELECTED. IN FACT, SOME OF THESE, THIS IS THE
FIRST TIME I'VE SEEN ACTUALLY A FULL, COMPLETE
LIST.
Q. RIGHT. HAS THIS BEEN SORT OF AN ITERATIVE PROCESS
SINCE 1988, 1989, WHERE YOU HAVE REVIEWED
DOCUMENTS AND MADE RECOMMENDATIONS OVER TIME?
A. NO. IN THE BEGINNING, AS I SAID, WHEN WE STARTED
THIS, I DON'T -- I DON'T BELIEVE THE CASE HAD EVEN
BEEN FILED.
Q. WELL, IT WAS FILED NOT TOO LONG AFTER---
A. NOT TOO LONG AFTER THAT.
Q. --- YOUR EARLY DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. WEDGWORTH.
A. BUT EARLY ON, I DID NOT -- I THINK, AS I SAID
BEFORE, WHAT HAPPENED IN SOME OF THOSE EARLY
MEETINGS, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO
BE WORKING PRIMARILY AS A CONSULTANT ON THE
LITIGATION CASE. I WAS NOT DOING THE: -- AND THAT
WAS NOT MY ROLE, AND I HAD MY RESEARCH TO DO. I
HAD TOO MUCH TO DO AS IT WAS. SO, FROM TIME TO
TIME, I BASICALLY WOULD MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS, AS I
SAID, FROM THESE PRESENTATIONS. IT WASN'T -- IT
WASN'T A FORMALIZED PROCESS; THEY WERE MORE
SERENDIPITY.
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 256
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DO YOU RECALL IS THE FIRST TIME
THAT YOU MADE THESE TYPES OF RECOMMENDATIONS, WHAT
YEAR?
A. PROBABLY -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN LATE f8@), '90,
SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. I CAN'T SAY ONE
MONTH OR ANOTHER. IT'S HARD TO SAY. AS I SAID,
THERE WAS NO FORMAL -- THERE WAS NO FORMAL, YOU
KNOW, THERE WAS NO FORMAL MEETING.
Q. YOU DIDN'T MEET TWICE A YEAR TO GO THROUGH THIS
PROCESS---
A. NO.
Q. --- IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
A. NO. I WOULD MEET WITH EQC, OR I WOULD MEET
WITH -- PRESENTATIONS THAT I WOULD MAKE, AND
THEN SOMEONE WOULD ASK, BY THE WAY, WHAT DO YOU
THINK ABOUT THIS, OR, OH, WE HADN'T REALIZED
ABOUT THAT.
Q. DID THE EQC AND/OR ANY OF THESE OTHER COMMITTEES
MEET MAYBE ONCE A YEAR, AT LEAST?
A. OH, I THINK THEY MEET SEVERAL -- WELL,, I THINK
THEY MEET -- I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT SURE HOW OFTEN
THEY MEET. THEY MAYBE MEET ONCE A MONTH, ONCE
EVERY OTHER MONTH, I'M NOT SURE. BUT I DID NOT
ATTEND VERY MANY OF THOSE MEETINGS. I WOULD ONLY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 257
BE ASKED TO ATTEND -- MAKE A PRESENTATION MAYBE
TWICE A YEAR. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE.
IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THAT MUCH. I CAN'T REMEMBER
THE -- I DIDN'T REALLY KEEP A CLOSE PRACK.
USUALLY I'D BE IN THE FIELD WORKING AND THEY WOULD
SAY, COULD YOU COME BY ON THURSDAY AFTERNOON, AND
THEY WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, A MEETING GOING ON, AND
THEN I WOULD SIT IN THE HALLWAY UNTIL THEY
FINISHED THEIR MEETING, AND THEN I WOULD COME FOR
MY HOUR OR WHATEVER THE PRESENTATION---
Q. SURE. SURE.
A. --- AND THEN THEY WOULD ASK ME TO LEAVE AGAIN,
SINCE THEY WERE DISCUSSING.
Q. SURE. AND WHO WOULD NORMALLY ATTEND THE EQC
MEETINGS?
A. THE EQC BOARD, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL IT.
Q. BUT WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?
A. ED BARBER; BOB BUKER; GEORGE WEDGWORTH, IN THE
BEGINNING; FANJUL---
Q. WHICH ONE?
A. ALEX. SOME PEOPLE -- BILL TARR; PHII, PARSONS;
OCCASIONALLY BILL EARL. THERE ARE OTHER
REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE LEAGUE, SOME OF THE
SMALLER GROWERS, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 258
Q. MR. STEIN, FRITZ STEIN?
A. HE MAY HAVE BEEN AT SOME OF THE EARLY MEETINGS.
I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AT ANY RECENT MEETINGS THAT I
HAVE BEEN TO, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN TO ANY OF THOSE
MEETINGS IN, GOSH, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHEN.
Q. MR. BEARDSLEY?
A. MR. BEARDSLEY.
Q. RIGHT.
A. I DON'T KNOW MR. BEARDSLEY.
Q. MR. HUNDLEY?
A. HUNDLEY. THE NAME SOUNDS FAMILIAR, BUT I DON'T
KNOW. THERE ARE SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS WHO SIT ON
THAT COMMITTEE WHO SAY ALMOST NOTHING. SO, I
DON'T---
Q. MR. SCHLECHTER?
A. THAT NAME -- I MEAN, THAT NAME DOESN'T RING A
BELL, BUT---
Q. OKAY. WHAT DOES EQC STAND FOR?
A. I BELIEVE IT'S THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY
CONTROL, OR ENVIRONMENTAL SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
Q. COMMITTEE?
A. COMMITTEE.
Q. AND WHAT'S THE PURPOSE?
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 259
A. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PURPOSE OF THAT
MEETING IS -- AS IT WAS EXPLAINED TO ME BY GEORGE
WEDGWORTH, WHICH I BELIEVE HE FOUNDED IT -- WAS TO
MEET WITH THE PRINCIPALS OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVES
TO TRY TO PREDETERMINE PENDING ENVIRONMENTAL AREAS
OF CONCERN; TO TRY TO COME UP WITH THE
RECOMMENDATIONS; TO TRY TO GATHER INFORMATION SO
THAT THEY MAY BE ABLE TO RECTIFY PROBLEMS THAT MAY
OCCUR. I WAS TOLD, FOR EXAMPLE, THAI' SOME OF THE
EARLY WORK THEY HAD WORKED ON WAS AIR QUALITY IN
ONE OF THE AREAS. I'VE NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT,
BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY -- APPARENTLY ONE OF THE
FIRST PROJECTS THEY WORKED ON.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID MR. GREEN EVER ATTEND ANY OF
THESE MEETINGS, OR LAWYERS ATTEND ANY OF THESE
MEETINGS?
A. WELL, I THINK I SAID BILL EARL WAS AT---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- SOME OF THESE MEETINGS.
Q. RIGHT.
A. RICK BURGESS WAS AT SOME OF THESE MEETINGS.
BILL TARR.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. I DON'T REMEMBER IF BILL GREEN ATTENDED. HE MAY
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 260
HAVE ATTENDED ONE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER IF HE DID
OR NOT. AS YOU KNOW, THE CO-OP IS NOT A MEMBER OF
THE LEAGUE AT THE MOMENT, SO HE MAY NOT BE INVITED
TO THOSE MEETINGS. I'M NOT PRIVY TO WHO GETS
INVITED AND WHO DOESNFT.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU SAY YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE EQC
WAS TO PREDETERMINE -- WHAT -- ENVIRONMENTAL
ISSUES OR THE -- NOW, THIS IS THE LEAGUE, THE
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE---
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. --- IT'S A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. RIGHT. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. GATHER INFORMATION, RECTIFY PROBLEMS.
WHAT -- IF IT WAS AN INFORMATION GATHERING,
PROBLEM RECTIFYING, FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE, WHY
THIS BUSINESS OF SEPARATING OUT WHO COULD ATTEND
THE MEETING; ONE PERSON COULD COME III AT A TIME;
HOW DID THAT COME TO BE?
A. WELL, I'M, AGAIN, NOT PRIVY TO ALL OF THAT, BUT IT
IS MY UNDERSTANDING -- I WAS TOLD NOT TO BE
INSULTED, THAT MANY PEOPLE WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THE
ROOM AT VARIOUS TIMES. AND PART OF THAT HAD TO
DO, I THINK, WHEN INDIVIDUAL CONSULTANTS WERE
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 261
BEING -- WERE PRESENTING INFORMATION. PART OF IT
HAD TO DO WHEN THEY WOULD GO INTO, I THINK, SOME
EXECUTIVE SESSION ON FUNDING, WHICH MOST
ORGANIZATIONS DO. I BELIEVE---
Q. THE EQC HAD FUNDING RESPONSIBILITIES?
A. WELL, I THINK THEY HAVE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR
NOT THEY WILL FUND. THEY GET REVIEWS ON
MATERIALS, PROPOSALS, AND I THINK THEY HAVE TO
MAKE INTERNAL DECISIONS, LIKE ANY ORGANIZATION,
AND I BELIEVE WHEN THEY MAKE THOSE DECISIONS,
THEY DO THAT -- AS I SAID, I'VE NEVER BEEN IN
THERE WHEN THEY'VE DONE THAT, BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD
THAT AS AN EXECUTIVE SESSION THEY BASICALLY DO
THAT.
Q. RIGHT. IS IT THE EQC THAT FUNDS THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER, WHEN THEY WERE FIRST FUNDED? WHEN THEY
DID---
A. WELL, THE LEAGUE---
Q. --- THEIR FIRST---
A. --- THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE---
Q. RIGHT.
A. --- FUNDED IT.
Q. BUT WAS IT THE EQC THAT WOULD APPROVE YOUR FIRST
PROPOSAL, AND FUND---
DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 262
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. --- YOUR FIRST YEAR'S WORK?
A. I BELIEVE SO. THE PILOT PROJECT, I BELIEVE---
Q. THE PILOT PROJECT, OKAY.
A. --- WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED THROUGH THE EQC
COMMITTEE.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU PRESENT IT TO THE EQC, AS YOU
RECALL?
A. YES, I -- WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, I MADE: AN ORAL
PRESENTATION IN MY FIRST MEETING WITH SEVERAL
MEMBERS, AND THEN -- THAT'S SO LONG AGO, I'M
TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK I MADE A FORMAL ORAL
PRESENTATION, AND, OF COURSE, A WRITTEN -- THEY
HAD WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I HAD ASKED YOU TO BRING ME THAT FIRST
PROPOSAL. WERE YOU ABLE TO LOCATE ONE,
DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I WAS BARELY ABLE TO GET MY CV. I HAVE LISA
LOOKING TO FIND IT.
Q. I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. AND
JANE RAIKES, ARE WE STILL TRACKING THAT ONE
DOWN?
A. I AM