STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF ) FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural ) Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038 ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040 ) and ) ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) ) and ) _______________________________ ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, ) OF W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and ) DR. CURTIS RICHARDSON HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) ) VOLUME I Petitioners, ) ) ________________________________ vs. ) ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an Agency of the State ) of Florida, ) ) Respondent, ) ) and ) ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF A ) MERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and the ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) ) Intervenors. ) ____________________________________) AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA JANUARY 11-12, 1993 REPORTED BY: PAMELA S. LILES CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 2 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PETITIONERS: SUGARCANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE MR. RICK BURGESS OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC. PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK AND WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC. ONE BISCAYNE TOWER MR. WILLIAM H. GREEN SUITE 3636 HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314 TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000 TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500 FOR RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: FOR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MS. SUZAN HILL PONZOLI MANAGEMENT DISTRICT: ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY MR. R. BENJAMINE REID SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH 155 SOUTH MIAMI AVENUE & KAUFMAN, LTD. SUITE 627 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL MIAMI, FLORIDA 33130 CENTER 100 S.E. SECOND STREET TELEPHONE: (305) 536-4425 MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 MR. LEE M. KILLINGER TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050 ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL STATE OF FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION TWIN TOWERS OFFICE BUILDING 2600 BLAIR STONE ROAD TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32399 TELEPHONE: (904) 488-9730 FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY: FOR SIERRA CLUB: MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN MR. DAVID G. GUEST KING, WALKER, LAMBE MANAGING ATTORNEY & CRABTREE SIERRA CLUB LEGAL DEFENSE 3708 MAYFAIR STREET FUND, INC. POST OFFICE BOX 51549 1ll S. MARTIN LUTHER DURHAM, N.C. 27717 KING, JR. BOULEVARD P.O. BOX 1329 TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32302 TELEPHONE: (919) 681-0031 DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 3 ALSO PRESENT: MR. RONALD D. JONES, Ph.D. FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES DRINKING WATER RESEARCH CENTER AND COLLEGE OF ARTS & SCIENCES UNIVERSITY PARK, MIAMI, FLORIDA 33199 MR. JIM GRIMSHAW, Ph.D. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT SENIOR ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENTIST RESEARCH APPRAISAL DIVISION RESEARCH DEPARTMENT 3301 GUN CLUB ROAD WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA 33416-4680 MR. MARK D. MAFFEI, Ph.D. REFUGE BIOLOGIST U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE LOXAHATCHEE AND HOBE SOUND NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGES ROUTE 1, BOX 278 BOYNTON BEACH, FLORIDA 33437 MR. FRANK L. NEARHOOF ENVIRONMENTAL SPECIALIST DIVISION OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROGRAMS STATE OF FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION TWIN TOWERS OFFICE BUILDING 2600 BLAIR STONE ROAD TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32399-2400 MR. ROBERT KADLEC MR. SAM ELSWICK ASPEN SYSTEMS CORPORATION DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 4 T A B L E 0 F C 0 N T E N T S E X A M I N A T I 0 N I N D E X VOLUME I DEPONENT - DR. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON - 1/11-12/93 EXAMINATION BY: PAGES MS. PONZOLI 5-550 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- E X H I B I T S I N D E X NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED (EXHIBITS NUMBER 1 - 40 WERE MARKED DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. RICHARDSON, JANUARY 11-15, 1993.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT (VOLUME I) 551 CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER (VOLUME I) 552 DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 5 STIPULATIONS ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE RESPONDENT- INTERVENOR, THE DEPOSITION OF DR. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 11:00 A.M. ON JANUARY 11, 1993, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE WALKER SUITE, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY PUBLIC. THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED. - - - - - - - - - - - WHEREUPON, DR. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI: Q. SIR, WOULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD? A. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON. Q. AND YOUR ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER, PLEASE, DR. RICHARDSON? A. DO YOU WANT MY WORKING ADDRESS, OR MY HOME ADDRESS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 6 Q. I THINK YOUR WORKING ADDRESS IS FINE. A. DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER, SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT, BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES BUILDING, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, 27706. Q. AND THE PHONE NUMBER? A. (919) 684-2619. Q. DR. RICHARDSON, JUST FOR THE RECORD, I AM SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, AND I'M AN ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY. I REPRESENT THE DEFENDANT INTERVENOR IN THE SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDINGS, AND I WILL BE ASKING YOU A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS. I KNOW THAT YOU SAT THROUGH DRS. CRAFT AND QUALLS' DEPOSITIONS. HAVE YOU, IN FACT, HAD YOUR DEPOSITION TAKEN BEFORE? A. YES, I HAVE. Q. HOW MANY TIMES? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS ONCE. Q. AND THE OCCASION? A. IT WAS A COURT CASE IN FLORIDA, ON THE PEACE RIVER. I WAS A WITNESS FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA. Q. THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR TESTIMONY IN THAT CASE, VERY SIMPLY WAS? A. WETLANDS DELINEATION, HISTORICAL DELINEATION, ANALYSIS OF THE WETLANDS BOUNDARY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 7 Q. DID YOU TESTIFY AT TRIAL IN THAT CASE, DR. RICHARDSON? THERE WAS NO--- A. IT DID NOT GO TO TRIAL. Q. RIGHT. A. IT WAS AT VARIOUS LEVELS OF LEGAL PROCESSES FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS. I BELIEVE IT'S STILL GOING ON. I'M NOT SURE. Q. WELL, AS YOU KNOW, AND I THINK AS YOU HEARD ME TELL DRS. CRAFT AND QUALLS, I WILL ASK YOU QUESTIONS. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION, PLEASE MAKE THAT CLEAR, BECAUSE IT'S ASSUMED THAT YOU DID, IF YOU ANSWER IT. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, THEN I'LL TRY AND FRAME A BETTER QUESTION OR A CLEARER QUESTION FOR YOU. I THINK ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT I'D LIKE TO DO, DR. RICHARDSON, IS TO ESTABLISH YOUR SCHEDULE FOR THE WEEK, BECAUSE WE HAD AGREED THAT WE WOULD ACCOMMODATE YOUR TEACHING NEEDS THROUGHOUT THIS WEEK, AND IF YOU WOULD JUST MAKE THAT CLEAR TO US, THEN WE WOULD KNOW HOW TO PLAN OUR DAYS. A. I HAVE, AS I MENTIONED, I THINK THROUGH RICK AND RALPH, I HAVE MONDAY, TUESDAY AND WEDNESDAY OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 8 THIS WEEK ON NORMAL SCHEDULE. I HAVE, YOU KNOW, FAMILY OBLIGATIONS, AND TWO CHILDREN TO SORT OF TAKE CARE OF IN THE MORNING AND THE AFTERNOONS WHEN MY WIFE'S NOT HOME. AND I HAVE TO PREPARE FOR LECTURES STARTING ON THURSDAY. I HAVE A LECTURE ON THURSDAY MORNING THAT RUNS TO ABOUT NOON, SO I WOULD HAVE SOME TIME AVAILABLE THURSDAY AFTERNOON. I HAVE ON FRIDAY OBLIGATIONS ALMOST THROUGH THE DAY, ESPECIALLY ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON, BECAUSE I'M ON THE AP&T COMMITTEE, APPOINTMENT FOR PROMOTION AND TENURE, AND WE HAVE A SEVERE HEAVY LOAD OF CASES THAT WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH, AND THAT'S A VERY DEMANDING OBLIGATION. SO I HAVE ACTUALLY TIME -- MY FRIDAYS ARE PRETTY MUCH SHOT. Q. SO, YOU HAVE ALL OF MONDAY, TUESDAY AND WEDNESDAY. WELL, WE'RE STARTING AT 11:15--- A. RIGHT. --- BUT WE HAVE THE REMAINDER OF TODAY. AND WE HAVE ALL OF TOMORROW, ALL OF WEDNESDAY, WE HAVE THURSDAY STARTING AT WHAT TIME, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I'D SAY RIGHT AFTER LUNCH. MY CLASS WILL RUN THROUGH PROBABLY NOON. I PROBABLY COULD BE HERE BY ONE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 9 Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I HONESTLY MUST TELL YOU THAT I DON'T KNOW -- I'LL HAVE A BETTER FEEL ONCE YOU EXPLAIN TO ME THIS MORNING WHAT YOUR EXPERT TESTIMONY IS EXPECTED TO BE AT TRIAL, IF I THINK -- AND HOW FAST I THINK I CAN FINISH MY EXAMINATION. BUT THERE ARE, IN FACT, POTENTIALLY THREE LAWYERS WHO MAY WISH TO ASK YOU QUESTIONS AS PART OF THIS DEPOSITION, AND I DON'T KNOW IF WE'RE GOING TO BE FINISHED BY THURSDAY. SO, I GUESS WE'LL HAVE TO RESOLVE THAT DOWNSTREAM. IT WAS THE UNITED STATES' UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU HAD SET ASIDE THE THREE FULL DAYS AND THE TWO HALF DAYS FOR US. A. WELL, THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT I COULD -- I DEFINITELY HAVE AN OBLIGATION ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON. THERE'S A POSSIBILITY I COULD CHECK ON THAT AND FREE UP SOME TIME MAYBE ON FRIDAY MORNING. I COULD DO THAT. Q. OKAY. A. BUT THAT--- Q. WE'LL HAVE A BETTER FEEL. A. YEAH. BUT THAT COMMITTEE, AS I SAY, IT'S BEEN AN OBLIGATION FOR -- IT'S AN OBLIGATION ALL FRIDAYS PRETTY MUCH FOR THREE YEARS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 10 Q. OKAY. I'D LIKE TO HAND YOU FIRST THE RENOTICE OF TAKING YOUR DEPOSITION, AND ASK YOU IF YOU'VE SEEN THAT? WITNESS: CAN I MOVE THIS? COURT REPORTER: (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) A. IS THIS THE ONE THAT YOU SENT TO RALPH McCAUGHAN? Q. I SENT IT TO RALPH McCAUGHAN, DR. RICHARDSON, AND ALSO TO BOTH OF YOUR ATTORNEYS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- MR. BURGESS AND MR. GREEN. A. YEAH, IT APPEARS TO BE THE SAME. Q. ALL RIGHT. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ALL OF THESE DOCUMENTS HAVE BEEN PRODUCED? A. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE. MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. LET'S MARK THAT AS RICHARDSON NUMBER ONE. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO ABOVE WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 1 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, CERTAIN DOCUMENTS WERE WITHHELD, AND I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHO MADE THE DECISION AS TO WHICH DOCUMENTS WOULD BE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 11 WITHHELD FROM THE UNITED STATES, IN RESPONSE TO THE "RE-NOTICE OF TAKING DEPOSITION - DUCES TECUM," WHICH YOU'VE JUST EXAMINED? A. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE ATTORNEYS, SOME DOCU -- THERE'S SEVERAL ATTORNEYS ON BOTH SIDES, AS YOU KNOW, AND THERE WERE IN -- THERE WAS SOME INFORMATION OR DOCUMENTS THAT RALPH McCAUGHAN AND I DISCUSSED AND HE DECIDED THEY, I GUESS, WERE -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PROPER TERM IS -- MAYBE NON-RESPONSIVE, OR -- OR WOULD BE HELD, FOR REASONS THAT HE CAN RELATE TO. AND THEN RICK BURGESS AND BILL GREEN ALSO MADE THOSE DETERMINATIONS. Q. SO, YOU MADE NONE OF THOSE DETERMINATIONS AS TO WHAT WOULD BE HELD BACK; THEY WERE MADE BY YOUR ATTORNEYS? A. WELL, YES. I MEAN, THEY BASICALLY TOLD ME WHICH DOCUMENTS THEY -- BASICALLY, I WAS ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THOSE, WHETHER -- BUT THEY BASICALLY MADE THE DECISIONS ON THOSE. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I HAVE BEEN PROVIDED LISTS, AND I PROBABLY WILL ASK YOU A FEW QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN DOCUMENTS THAT WERE LISTED ON THE WITHHELD DOCUMENTS LIST AT A LATER TIME. BUT, FOR NOW, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 12 WE'LL -- WE'LL ASSUME THAT YOU'VE PRODUCED AND THAT, IN FACT, EVERYTHING IS ACCOUNTED FOR, EITHER BETWEEN THE WITHHELD LIST, OR WHAT YOU HAVE PRODUCED. JUST SO -- SO I AM CLEAR ABOUT THE PRODUCTION, THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU WOULD FORM YOUR OPINIONS FROM, INCLUDE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE PRODUCED AT DRS. CRAFT, QUALLS, RADER, VYMAZAL'S DEPOSITIONS, DO THEY NOT? A. SOME OF THOSE DOCUMENTS ARE -- WELL, MAY BE DOCUMENTS THAT I WOULD RELY ON, YES. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. I WOULD NOT RELY ON EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF ALL THOSE DOCUMENTS. Q. THAT -- IF WE CAN NARROW SOME OF THOSE -- THOSE AREAS TODAY, THAT FRANKLY WILL BE AN EXTREMELY USEFUL ACTIVITY. AND I, IN FACT, HAVE A LETTER FROM -- FROM YOUR ATTORNEY. AND I GUESS WHEN I GO THROUGH YOUR EXPERT -- THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR EXPERT TESTIMONY, I'LL SHOW YOU THAT LETTER AND SEE IF YOU THINK THAT LETTER ACCURATELY SUMMARIZES THE AREAS THAT YOU -- YOU WILL BE TESTIFYING ON, AND THEN GIVES ME AN IDEA OF WHICH OF THOSE DOCUMENTS ARE RELEVANT. I'D LIKE TO HAND YOU A COPY OF THE CURRICULUM VITAE, WHICH WAS PROVIDED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 13 TO THE UNITED STATES LAST FRIDAY, AND ASK YOU IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT. A. YES, THAT'S THE 1989 CV. Q. DO YOU HAVE A MORE CURRENT CV, DR. RICHARDSON? A. YEAH, I BELIEVE THE LAST CURRENT ONE IS JANUARY OF '92. I DON'T KNOW -- WE USUALLY UPDATE THOSE SOMETIME EARLY IN THE YEAR, EACH YEAR, SO, I'M NOT SURE. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY. THIS ONE WAS AS OF JANUARY 189, SO. MS. PONZOLI: I'M GOING TO HAVE THIS MARKED AS RICHARDSON NUMBER TWO. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO ABOVE WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 2 - CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) BUT I WOULD LIKE IF YOU WOULD, DR. RICHARDSON, IF YOU WOULD BRING US AN UPDATED CV TOMORROW, IT'D REALLY BE A MORE USEFUL ACTIVITY FOR ME TO QUESTION YOU ON ONE THAT WAS MORE CURRENT. DON'T YOU AGREE? A. YES. I THINK -- AS I SAID, THE MOST CURRENT ONE, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IS THE JANUARY '92. I'M SURPRISED YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. YOU MAY -- I MEAN, I HAVE NO IDEA WHICH--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 14 Q. ALL RIGHT. JUST -- I WOULD LIKE -- I WOULD JUST LIKE YOU TO BRING ONE. A. YOU DONFT HAVE ONE IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? Q. I DON'T HAVE ONE. A. OKAY. Q. YOU GOT IT. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO DO A COUPLE OF FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD AND SIMPLE THINGS TODAY, AND I THOUGHT I WOULD JUST TELL YOU VERY CLEARLY WHERE I'M -- I'M GOING TO TRY TO GO, AND THEN LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET THAT ACCOMPLISHED IN A STRAIGHTFORWARD WAY, AND I THINK IT MAY SIMPLIFY THE REST OF THE EXAMINATION. I WOULD LIKE TO -- TO FIRST GET YOU TO OUTLINE THE EXPERT OPINIONS THAT YOU BELIEVE PRESENTLY YOU WILL BE CALLED UPON TO OFFER AT TRIAL, IN AN OUTLINE FORM. AND I HAVE SEEN MANY TIMES THAT YOU DO THESE RATHER WELL, JUST GENERAL OUTLINES OF WHERE YOU'RE GOING, AND WHAT YOU'VE DONE. I AM INFORMED THAT YOU MAY HAVE SOME ONGOING OPINIONS, OR OPINIONS STILL TO BE FORMED, AND I WOULD LIKE YOU -- I WOULD LIKE TO ELICIT THOSE ALSO FROM YOU, WHERE YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING, OR WHERE YOU THINK YOU MAY BE OFFERING OPINIONS, OR ONES THAT ARE PRELIMINARY AT THIS TIME, BUT WILL BE FINAL AT A FUTURE TIME. AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 15 THE -- THE SECOND THING I WOULD LIKE TO DO WITH YOU IS TO GO THROUGH THE HISTORY, AND IN WHAT YOUR PARTICIPATION HAS BEEN IN THE EVERGLADES OVER THESE LAST THREE AND A HALF, FOUR YEARS, AND MAYBE EVEN BEFORE THAT IF YOU HAD ACTIVITIES IN THE EVERGLADES. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR ROLE IN THE EVERGLADES, WHAT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, ETCETERA, WHAT THAT HAS -- ALL THAT PROCESS IN THE EVERGLADES. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. SO, I THINK THOSE ARE FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD, AND IF WE COULD DO THOSE, THAT WOULD A USEFUL ACTIVITY. SO, RETURNING TO YOUR EXPERT TESTIMONY AT THE TIME OF TRIAL, I HAVE -- WE WERE COMPELLED UNDER A DISCOVERY ORDER TO PROVIDE ONE ANOTHER WITH DESCRIPTIONS, AND I ASSUME YOU'VE SEEN THE DESCRIPTION THAT BOTH THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND THE SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE HAVE PROVIDED TO THE OTHER PARTIES, AS DESCRIPTIONS OF YOUR EXPERT TESTIMONY. HAVE YOU SEEN THOSE? A. I THINK SO. I THINK I KNOW WHAT YOUFRE REFERRING TO. I'M NOT SURE. WITNESS: DO YOU HAVE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 16 MS. PONZOLI: I CAN -- WELL, I HAVE MY COPY. I CAN SORT OF SHARE WITH YOU. MR. KILLINGER: I'VE GOT CLEAN ONES IF YOU NEED THEM. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THESE ARE JUST EXCERPTS THAT REFLECT YOUR TESTIMONY. TAKE A QUICK LOOK AT THOSE, AND I ASK IF YOU'VE SEEN -- I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU FIRST, HAVE YOU SEEN THEM BEFORE? (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. OKAY. YES, I'VE SEEN THESE. Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU HAVE SEEN THOSE BEFORE. LET'S START FIRST DR. RICHARDSON, WITH THE ONE PROVIDED BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHICH OF THOSE YOU'RE LOOKING AT, WHICH ONE THAT IS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 17 A. YES, I THINK IT'S -- WELL, THEY BOTH SAY -- I THINK IT'S THIS ONE. MR. BURGESS: YEAH. A. YES, OKAY. Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S START WITH THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IT SAYS THE "SUBJECT MATTER OF EXPECTED TESTIMONY." IS THERE ANYTHING THERE THAT'S BEEN ELIMINATED, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? A. NOT IN THAT STATEMENT B -- UNDER SUBSECTION B? Q. YES, SIR. A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, THEN LET ME, JUST SO WE'RE BOTH CLEAR, AND THE PEOPLE AROUND THE TABLE ARE CLEAR, YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE ME IN A BROAD OUTLINE THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR OPINION THAT YOU BELIEVE YOU'LL BE OFFERING AT TRIAL. I'M NOT GOING TO SIT HERE AND QUESTION YOU ON THE ALL DETAILS. YOU'VE -- BETWEEN YOUR SCIENTISTS AND THE ANNUAL REPORTS, HAVE A FAIRLY SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF DOCUMENTS. WE WOULD LIKE TO NARROW THIS EXAMINATION, TO THE EXTENT WE CAN, TO AREAS PRETTY MUCH RELEVANT TO TO YOUR EXPECTED TESTIMONY. SO, OUR GOAL IS THAT YOU WOULD TELL US WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO, AND THEN WE CAN THINK ABOUT IT AND ASK YOU THE MOST DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 18 PRECISE QUESTIONS. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ALL RIGHT. ON SOIL CHEMISTRY, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE YOU'LL BE OFFERING AS AN OPINION AT TRIAL, WITH THOSE GUIDELINES THAT I'VE GIVEN YOU? MR. BURGESS: LET ME STATE FOR THE RECORD -- AND I GUESS IN THE MANNER OF AN OBJECTION -- THAT THIS DOCUMENT OBVIOUSLY WAS PREPARED BY COUNSEL, IN AN ATTEMPT TO SATISFY THE AGREEMENT AMONG COUNSEL AND THE COURT ORDER WITH RESPECT TO DELINEATING THE AREAS WHERE THE EXPERT MAY WELL BE OFFERED AS AN EXPERT AT THE TIME OF TRIAL, TO GIVE EXPERT OPINION. AND THAT OPINION WOULD BE GIVEN IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS FROM COUNSEL, AND NOT IN THE MANNER THAT COUNSEL IS ATTEMPTING TO SOLICIT RIGHT NOW FROM THIS WITNESS. TO THE EXTENT THAT THE WITNESS IS ABLE TO ANSWER, AND IF HE KNOWS WHAT COUNSEL MAY ASK, I SUPPOSE IT'S A PROPER INQUIRY, BUT I THINK IT'S PUTTING THE WITNESS IN A DIFFICULT POSITION BECAUSE HIS OPINIONS EXPRESSED AT TRIAL WILL BE IN RESPONSE TO SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FROM COUNSEL. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 19 Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, DR. RICHARDSON, I THINK I'M PROBABLY GOING TO STILL WANT TO DO WHAT WE'RE DOING, AND WE CAN MAKE SOMETHING USEFUL OF IT. HAVE THE OPINIONS THAT WILL BE ELICITED FROM YOU AT TRIAL BEEN DISCUSSED WITH YOU BY THE COUNSEL WHO WILL BE USING YOU AT TRIAL? A. IN SOME GENERAL WAYS, THEY HAVE. MY PRIMARY FOCUS HAS BEEN TO LOOK AT THE RESEARCH IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS OF THE EVERGLADES. AND, QUITE FRANKLY, IN TERMS OF EXPECTED TESTIMONY, IT'S RELATED TO THE DOCUMENTS YOU REFERRED TO, AND THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER DOCUMENTS. I WAS NOT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, ANYWAY, EVEN LISTED AS AN EXPERT UNTIL LATE IN THE GAME, SO THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS OF THIS. ONE IS I WOULD -- I WOULD BE FORMULATING MY OPINIONS RELATING TO SOME OF THIS MATERIAL FROM THE DOCUMENTS YOU NOW POSSESS. AND, NUMBER TWO, I HAVE NOT FORMALIZED ALL OF MY OPINIONS RELATED TO THIS, BECAUSE, ONE, SOME OF THE WORK IS ONGOING, AND, TWO, I QUITE FRANKLY HAVEN'T HAD THE TIME TO FOCUS ON ALL OF THIS IN TERMS OF THE LITIGATION. I'VE PRIMARILY BEEN TRYING TO FACT FIND AND UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS OF THIS INFORMATION. SO, I WILL STOP AT THAT POINT, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 20 IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING MORE SPECIFIC, I MEAN, IN TERMS OF--- Q. WELL, I THINK THAT -- I THINK AS MR. BURGESS IS AWARE, AND OTHER PEOPLE AROUND THE TABLE ARE AWARE, I AM ENTITLED TO KNOW WHAT IT IS YOU'RE GOING TO BE SAYING AT THE TIME OF TRIAL, AND WHAT OPINIONS YOU'LL BE OFFERING. AND, CLEARLY, A PRETTY GOOD NUMBER OF PEOPLE HAVE COME UP HERE TO FIND OUT WHAT IT IS YOU HAVE TO SAY. I SUSPECT THIS WON'T BE OUR FINAL JOURNEY. I DO -- I DO BELIEVE THAT I WAS ENTITLED TO THAT TODAY, AND I REALIZE THAT'S NOT YOUR FAULT, AND WE'LL JUST HAVE TO MUDDLE THROUGH IT THE BEST WAY WE CAN, BUT --- A. WELL --- Q. SO LET'S JUST WORK OUR WAY THROUGH--- A. SURE. Q. --- THE SOIL CHEMISTRY. YOU SAID THAT YOU HAD DISCUSSED -- LET'S JUST RETURN ONE SECOND -- EXCUSE ME -- TO GENERAL -- IN SOME GENERAL WAYS, YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WOULD BE TESTIFYING TO. WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME THOSE FIRST. WHAT ARE THOSE GENERAL WAYS YOU WILL BE TESTIFYING THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 21 A. WELL, THAT'S -- THAT'S REALLY WHAT IS LISTED UNDER -- UNDER B. I WILL -- I WOULD BE DISCUSSING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF SOIL CHEMISTRY. THIS IS A VERY COMPLEX ISSUE, SO TO -- SO TO BASICALLY SIT HERE WITHOUT SPECIFIC QUESTIONS RELATED TO SOIL CHEMISTRY, I MEAN, WE COULD TALK ABOUT REDOX CHEMISTRY, WE COULD TALK ABOUT PHOSPHORUS CHEMISTRY, WE COULD TALK ABOUT THE INTERACTION OF PLANTS AND CHEMISTRY, THE CYCLING MATERIALS, BIOGEOCHEMISTRY OF PRIMARILY PHOSPHORUS, AND CARBON. A. SO, I MEAN, IT'S SO LARGE, IT'S HARD TO -- I MEAN, TO FOCUS, EXCEPT FOR OBVIOUSLY FOR THE SPECIFIC AREAS THAT -- LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY, THE OBJECTIVES OF MY GRANT, WHICH ARE VERY CLEARLY LISTED, I THINK, IN THE OUTCOMES, ARE TO -- TO STUDY THE EFFECTS OF WATER AND NUTRIENTS ON THE EVERGLADES COMMUNITIES, TO DETERMINE THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE CAPACITY OF WETLANDS, AND TO TO TRY TO INTEGRATE THE INFORMATION FROM OUR STUDIES, SO THAT WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DETERMINE BETTER OUR WATER AND NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES FOR THE EVERGLADES. THOSE ARE THE GENERAL CATEGORIES. AND UNDER THAT ARE, AS YOU'VE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 22 LOOKED AT MY REPORTS, I'M SURE, IN DETAIL, ARE A NUMBER OF--- (THEREUPON, MR. GREEN ENTERS.) A. --- SUBPROJECTS, THAT SOME HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO HELP PROVIDE INFORMATION, AND SOME HAVE BEEN -- ARE STILL ONGOING. WE HAVEN'T -- WE HAVENFT REACHED A CONCLUSION ON SOME OF THOSE. Q. WELL, I THINK -- I THINK YOU DO HAVE, THOUGH, PRESENTLY, OPINIONS ON SOIL CHEMISTRY IN THE EVERGLADES. AND I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHAT ARE YOUR PRESENT OPINIONS ON THE SOIL CHEMISTRY, IF YOU WERE ASKED TO GO TO TRIAL NEXT MONDAY, AND SOMEONE WERE TO ELICIT A QUESTION, SOMETHING IN A GENERIC FASHION, TO EXPLAIN--- A. WELL, JUST BE SPECIFIC. I MEAN, WHAT WOULD YOU--- Q. WELL, YOU HAVE IDEAS ABOUT THIS, DR. RICHARDSON. YOU CAN HELP US, OR THIS DEPOSITION WILL--- A. OKAY. Q. --- END UP BEING AD NAUSEAM--- A. OKAY. Q. --- BECAUSE, I MEAN, I CAN GO THROUGH EVERY ONE OF THOSE ANNUAL REPORTS WITH YOU, AND EACH ONE OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 23 YOUR SCIEN -- IT'S JUST IT'S VERY HARD THAT WAY. I THINK YOU HAVE SOME GLOBAL IDEAS OF HOW YOU THINK THE CHEMISTRY OF THE SOIL FUNCTIONS IN THE EVERGLADES. AND I THINK MAYBE I CAN TELL YOU A THIRD AREA THAT WE WILL TRY AND FOCUS ON THIS WEEK; IT'S REALLY A USEFUL AREA. BECAUSE WHETHER WE RESOLVE THIS IN LITIGATION OR OTHERWISE, THE ISSUES HAVE TO BE RESOLVED. ALL RIGHT? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND IT'S PROBABLY CLEAR THAT WE AGREE ON CERTAIN THINGS, AND YOU'RE PROBABLY AWARE OF WHAT WE AGREE ON, AND IT'S PROBABLY CLEAR THAT WE DISAGREE ON SOME OTHERS. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. IF YOU WANT TO BREAK YOUR GENERAL DISCUSSION THAT WAY, THESE ARE AREAS THAT I THINK, FROM WHAT I'M READING, THERE'S GOOD AGREEMENT BETWEEN WHAT MY RESEARCH IS SHOWING, AND WHAT THE OTHER RESEARCH SHOWS, BUT THAT THIS IS WHERE I SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY FROM MY RESEARCH. DO YOU WANT TO TRY IT THAT WAY7 A. WE CAN. MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. WAS THAT A QUESTION? I JUST WALKED IN, BUT I--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 24 MS. PONZOLI: YEAH--- MR. GREEN: --- ASSUME YOU'RE ASKING QUESTIONS, AND ANSWERS? MS. PONZOLI: THERE -- THERE WAS A PENDING QUESTION. THERE'S A PENDING QUESTION REGARDING HIS EXPERT TESTIMONY, AND THERE SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE DIFFICULTY IN THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE FORMULATED OPINIONS. WE WAITED FOR YOU. I'M SORRY. WE WOULD HAVE WAITED LONGER IF WE HAD BEEN CLEAR ON--- MR. GREEN: MARK MAFFEI IS BEHIND ME SOMEWHERE. MS. PONZOLI: HOPEFULLY SAFELY. MR. REID: HE WENT TO MY OFFICE FIRST. MR. GREEN: HE LOOKED FINE WHEN I SAW HIM LAST. A. SO ARE WE BACK TO FORMULATED OPINIONS? WE'RE BACK, WE'RE STILL ON SOIL CHEMISTRY? Q. YES, SIR. A. WELL, I MEAN, WE CAN START, I GUESS, IN TERMS OF SOIL CHEMISTRY, FORMULATED OPINIONS, CARBON IS THE -- IS STORED AT A -- AT A FAIRLY HIGH RATE, I GUESS ONE OF THE OPINIONS, COMPARED TO SOME OF THE OTHER ECOSYSTEMS THAT I'VE SEEN. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 25 Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. THE EVERGLADES, I MEAN, IS PRIMARILY -- IT'S A SYSTEM THAT -- WHICH I WOULD SAY IS A PHOSPHORUS LIMITED SYSTEM, IN TERMS OF THE NUTRIENT DYNAMICS OF THE SYSTEM. PHOSPHORUS IS PRIMARILY HELD IN ORGANIC FORMS, ALTHOUGH THERE IS A GOOD BIT OF EVIDENCE THAT WEFVE COLLECTED THAT CALCIUM PLAYS AND IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE STORAGE OF PHOSPHORUS, ALONG WITH, I THINK, ALUMINUM AND IRON TO SOME DEGREE. THAT'S NOT BEEN TOTALLY FERRETED OUT, BUT I THINK IT'S TO A LESSER DEGREE THAN CALCIUM. THERE ARE MANY, MANY FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE SYSTEM. YOU KNOW, IT'S -- AS I SAID, THE QUESTION IS SO BROAD, WHEN YOU SAY JUST SOIL CHEMISTRY, IT -- I WOULD ALMOST HAVE TO -- I REALIZE YOU WANT TO LIMIT THIS DOWN, AND SPEED IT UP, BUT--- Q. WELL, I THINK YOU ACTUALLY DID. WHEN YOU SAID PHOSPHORUS WAS LIMIT -- IT'S A PHOSPHORUS LIMITED SYSTEM, YOU MAY HAVE SAVED US SEVERAL HOURS RIGHT THERE. A. OKAY. Q. SO, THIS IS NOT A WASTED ACTIVITY. A. OKAY. Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT WOULD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 26 BE ENCOMPASSED IN A BROAD OUTLINE OF YOUR OPINIONS ON THE EVERGLADES REGARDING SOIL CHEMISTRY? A. I THINK THE SOILS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE PRESENCE OF THE LARGE AMOUNT OF ORGANIC MATTER THERE IS INDICATIVE OF A SYSTEM THAT IS CONTROLLED PRIMARILY BY HYDROLOGIES AND REDOX CONDITIONS, AND THAT THE STORAGE RATES AND THE LOSSES AND THE MINERALIZATION RATES THAT WE HAVE MEASURED, SEEN, QUANTIFIED TO SOME DEGREE, INDICATE THE IMPORTANCE OF HYDROLOGY AND HYDROPERIOD AS THE DOMINANT FACTOR CONTROLLING THE DYNAMICS OF THE EVERGLADES. Q. AND YOU BASE THAT ON THE STORAGE RATES AND LOSSES? A. WELL, TO HAVE THAT MUCH ORGANIC MATERIAL IN ANY LOCATION, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT TO FUNCTION AS A WETLAND, IT HAD TO HAVE THE PROPER HYDROLOGY, AND -- ORIGINALLY -- AND -- AND THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT SINCE PEAT IS PRIMARILY -- WHEN YOU LOOK AT PEAT, IT'S PRIMARILY EIGHTY TO NINETY PERCENT WATER -- IN FACT, IN SOME OF THE PEAT SYSTEMS, THERE CAN BE LESS SOLIDS IN PEAT THAN THERE ARE IN A GLASS OF WHOLE MILK -- THAT WATER IS A CRITICAL COMPONENT OF ANY SYSTEM LIKE THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 27 EVERGLADES. AND THE EVERGLADES, ALTHOUGH IN EXISTENCE -- THAT PEAT HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, PRIMARILY, I WOULD SAY MOST OF IT FORMED IN THE LAST FIVE THOUSAND YEARS, PLUS OR MINUS A FEW THOUSAND, AND IT'S PRIMARILY A RHEOPHILOUS SYSTEM. THE CHEMISTRY IS -- IT'S A RHEOPHILOUS SYSTEM THAT -- IT'S A WATER LOVING SYSTEM THAT EXISTS IN ITS PRESENT STATE, DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE WATER HAS PRIMARILY FLOWED OVER THE SURFACE OF THIS. AND ALTHOUGH THERE IS A CORNER OF IT, THE LOXAHATCHEE, WHICH IS AN OMBROPHILOUS SYSTEM, WHICH IS PRIMARILY FROM WHAT EVIDENCE I CAN GATHER TANGENTIALLY, SINCE I HAVEN'T BEEN ALLOWED TO ENTER THE LOXAHATCHEE, APPEARS TO BE A RAINFALL DRIVEN SYSTEM, WHICH IS A BIT DIFFERENT THAN -- AT LEAST A VAST PORTION OF THAT SYSTEM -- A BIT DIFFERENT THAN MOST OF THE OTHER PORTIONS OF THE EVERGLADES. THE OTHER ASPECT IN SOIL CHEMISTRY, I THINK THE DEPTH OF PEAT HAS BEEN MUCH DEEPER AND THE SOIL IS MUCH RICHER DIRECTLY SOUTH OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE. THAT WAS PROBABLY SOME OF THE RICHEST ORIGINAL LAND, AND THERE HAS BEEN A GRADIENT OF CARBON DECREASING DOWN TO THE EVERGLADES PARK. I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 28 HAVE BEEN IN THE PARK AS A TOURIST, WITH MY FAMILY, BUT I'VE ALSO BEEN IN THE PARK YEARS EARLIER, AND THE DEPTH OF PEAT IN THOSE AREAS IS VERY THIN COMPARED TO THE NORTHERN AREAS, AND I BELIEVE THERE WAS A NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT. WHAT I GUESS I COULD SAY IN GENERAL ABOUT THE EVERGLADES IS THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT ONE UNIFORM SYSTEM. IT'S A -- IN TERMS OF THE COMMUNITY ECOLOGY, IT'S QUITE -- QUITE INTERESTING. IT HAS A VARIETY OF COMMUNITY TYPES. THERE APPEARS TO BE, FROM BOTH HISTORICAL RECORDS AND SOME OBSERVATIONS, GOOD EVIDENCE THAT PRODUCTION WAS HIGHER IN CERTAIN PLACES THAN THE OTHER, AND, IN FACT, NUTRIENTS EXISTED IN SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PROPORTIONS FROM TIME TO TIME IN DIFFERENT COMPONENTS OF THE SYSTEM. Q. SO, THE SOIL CHEMISTRY, YOU'RE SAYING, WOULD BE DIFFERENT IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE EVERGLADES? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. BECAUSE OF THE CARBON GRADIENT, BECAUSE OF THE WATER--- A. CARBON GRADIENT--- Q. --- DIFFERENCE, AND--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 29 A. --- DISTANCE TO THE MINERAL SOIL. Q. OKAY. A. WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THE SYSTEM, AS I SAID, IS OMBROTROPHIC OR NOT, OR MINERTROPHIC -- I'M SPEAKING HERE IN A HISTORICAL CONTEXT, AS BEST WE CAN, ALTHOUGH IT'S DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE WHAT THE EVERGLADES WAS LIKE, SINCE IT'S BEEN SO HEAVILY DRAINED AND DITCHED. IT'S DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE SOME ASPECTS OF THAT, ALTHOUGH I THINK THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I JUST REVIEWED. Q. OKAY. IS THAT -- IS THAT PRETTY MUCH ON SOIL CHEMISTRY? A. UH--- Q. WHAT HAP--- A. --- WELL, THERE ARE MANY OTHER SPECIFIC DETAILS. Q. NO. I'M GOING TO DO THIS IN DETAIL WITH YOU, BUT I -- IF WE COULD NARROW, AND YOU'VE DONE SOME NARROWING HERE. I THINK THERE'S SOME AREAS WE WON'T SPEND ANY TIME BEATING TO DEATH, BECAUSE YOU'VE SAID--- A. OKAY. Q. --- ARE THERE ANY ASPECTS OF IT THAT YOU THINK ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT, THAT MAKE IT UNIQUELY THE EVERGLADES, OF THE THINGS YOU'VE JUST EXPLAINED, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 30 OR SOMETHING YOU HAVENFT EXPLAINED? MR. BURGESS: ANY ASPECTS OF? MS. PONZOLI: SOIL CHEMISTRY. WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT SOIL CHEMISTRY, ALTHOUGH I THINK HE BEGAN TO GO A LITTLE FURTHER. A. COMPARED TO OTHER WETLANDS, I SUPPOSE BEING AN ALKALINE MARSH OF THAT SIZE IS PRETTY -- PRETTY INTERESTING. BEING A SUBTROPICAL WETLANDS, THERE WAS A FEELING FOR A LONG TIME THAT ONE SIMPLY DID NOT HAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, ANY BOG TYPE SYSTEMS, OR OMBROTROPHIC TRUE BOG SYSTEMS IN THE SOUTH. WE KNOW NOW, OF COURSE, THEY EXIST IN NORTH CAROLINA, THE OKEFENOKEE, AND THERE MAY BE EVIDENCE OF MOVING TOWARDS THAT IN A COMPONENT OF THE EVERGLADES. Q. WHY IS THAT? A. BECAUSE THE DEPTH OF PEAT, ESPECIALLY IN THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE LOXAHATCHEE -- AS I SAID, I CAN ONLY DO THIS FROM INFORMATION THAT I HAVE READ ABOUT FROM MANY EARLIER WORKS THAT -- AND SOME OF THE WORK OF THE DISTRICT THAT THE pH AND THE RANGE OF IT, AND THE CALCIUM AND MAGNESIUM RATIOS AND SO FORTH INDICATE THAT THE DEPTH OF PEAT IS SUCH THAT IT'S NOW SURVIVING PRETTY MUCH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUNE I PAGE 31 AS AN OMBROTROPHIC SYSTEM THAT IS MOVING TOWARDS A BOG. IT'S VERY TYPICAL TOWARDS THE SUCCESSION THAT ONE WOULD FIND IN WETLAND SYSTEMS. Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE THERE ASPECTS OF THE SOIL CHEMISTRY, DR. RICHARDSON, THAT YOU'RE AWARE THAT YOUR VIEWS DIFFER FROM PERHAPS VIEWS THAT YOU'VE HEARD FEDERAL SCIENTISTS AND/OR STATE SCIENTISTS EXPRESS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM AS BEING OVERBROAD. A. YEAH, YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE MORE SPECIFIC, I BELIEVE ON THAT, IN TERMS OF--- Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE SAID TO ME THIS MORNING, WITH WHICH YOU BELIEVE THERE'S SOME DISAGREEMENT BY OTHER SCIENTISTS WHO ARE WORKING IN THE EVERGLADES PRESENTLY? MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. A. WELL, WE WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK THROUGH THOSE, I MEAN, INDIVIDUALLY. BUT, I MEAN, I'M NOT AWARE OF WHAT EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS SAYING ON EVERY TOPIC. I MEAN, AND I HAVEN'T READ EVERYTHING THEY'VE SAID. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 32 Q. SURE. A. BUT, I THINK THERE WOULD BE SOMEWHAT GENERAL AGREEMENT FOR MOST OF THOSE THINGS. Q. OKAY. AND THERE ARE NONE, THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF, THAT OTHER SCIENTISTS DISAGREE WITH YOU? A. ON THOSE PARTICULAR--- Q. YES, SIR. A. --- COMMENTS? Q. SO FAR? MR. BURGESS: I'M GOING TO OBJECT. I THINK HE SAID HE'D HAVE TO GO BACK THROUGH THEM. A. WELL, AS I SAID, YEAH, I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK THROUGH THEM, BUT -- BUT, YOU KNOW, BY AND LARGE, I THINK THAT'S A FAIR ASSESSMENT. I CAN'T REALLY ASSESS WHAT OTHER PEOPLE -- I HAVE NOT SEEN MANY PEOPLE, IN FACT, ANALYZE THESE SYSTEMS IN THE WAY IN WHICH MAYBE I WOULD ANALYZE THEM. I THINK I BRING -- BRING TO THIS PARTICULAR TABLE A LITTLE DIFFERENT BACKGROUND AND EXPERIENCE THAN SOME, AND WITH A BIT MORE OF A EUROPEAN FLAVOR, AND SOME NORTHERN EXPERIENCE, AND OTHER EXPERIENCES, SO, I MEAN, I WOULD THINK IT WOULD -- I THINK WE WOULD AGREE ON MANY OF THOSE THINGS IN THERE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 33 Q. OKAY. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOUR BACKGROUND EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT FROM, YOU BELIEVE, OTHER SCIENTISTS WORKING IN THE EVERGLADES. A. WELL, I THINK THERE ARE FEW SCIENTISTS -- THERE ARE PROBABLY EXCEPTIONS -- THERE ARE FEW SCIENTISTS WHO HAVE SPENT TWENTY YEARS STUDYING PHOSPHORUS CYCLING IN WETLANDS. THERE ARE FEW SCIENTISTS WHO HAVE WORKED IN BOTH NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN PEATLANDS, WHO HAVE ACTUALLY COLLECTED THE FIELD DATA, AND WHO HAVE PUT TOGETHER PHOSPHORUS CYCLING MODELS, AND DYNAMICS OF THE SYSTEMS. AND THERE ARE FEW SCIENTISTS WHO HAVE THERE ARE SOME -- BUT WHO HAVE TRAVELLED AS FAR, WORLDWIDE LOOKING AT PEATLANDS IN EUROPE AND SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND AND THE TROPICS, AND ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES. SO, I THINK I BRING TO BEAR A -- AT LEAST A -- AN INFORMED VIEW OF THOSE SYSTEMS. AND THERE MAYBE SOME PEOPLE IN EUROPE WHO HAVE THIS MUCH EXPERIENCE IN SOME OF THIS. THERE ARE NOT MANY IN THE U.S. OKAY. CAN -- CAN YOU THINK OF ANY OTHER SCIENTISTS IN THE UNITED STATES THAT YOU BELIEVE HAVE SIMILAR EXPERIENCE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 34 A. THERE ARE -- WELL, THEY HAVE VARIOUS ASPECTS, BUT THERE ARE FEW THAT HAVE STUDIED SPECIFICALLY THE PHOSPHORUS DYNAMICS AS CAREFULLY AS I HAVE. I THINK THERE ARE SOME -- IN WETLANDS. NOW, THERE ARE MANY PHOSPHORUS EXPERTS. I WOULD THINK THERE ARE SOME IN EUROPE THAT COVER THAT PRETTY CAREFULLY. THERE ARE A FEW IN THE UNITED STATES. DR. DENNIS WHIGHAM MIGHT -- MIGHT BE AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE WHO WOULD HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE. DR. JOS VEREHOEVEN IN HOLLAND WOULD BE SOMEONE WHO HAS COVERED THAT AREA--- Q. OKAY. A. --- OR AT LEAST TO SOME DEGREE. Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE EVERGLADES ARE UNIQUE FROM OTHER LARGE WETLAND SYSTEMS? A. WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEFINE UNIQUE. I DON'T -- THAT'S -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY UNIQUE? Q. THAT IS A COMMON EXPRESSION ABOUT THE EVERGLADES, THAT THEY ARE A UNIQUE SYSTEM. YOU'VE NEVER HEARD THAT? A. I'VE HEARD THAT. I HEAR THAT ABOUT THE POCOSINS IN NORTH CAROLINA, WHICH I WORKED ON FOR YEARS. THEY ARE UNIQUE. I HEAR THIS ABOUT THE CAROLINA DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 35 BAYS, WHICH I WORK ON IN NORTH CAROLINA. THEY ARE UNIQUE. I HEAR THIS ABOUT THE HOCHMOORS IN FINLAND. THEY ARE VERY UNIQUE. Q. ARE THE OTHERS UNIQUE? A. I THINK THAT SOME OF THESE, IN THE PUBLIC'S EYE, AT LEAST, HAVE SOME -- SOME CHARACTERISTICS THAT MAKE THEM AT LEAST VERY INTERESTING. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. IT'S NOT A VERY SPECIFIC TERM. Q. CERTAINLY. HAVE YOU EVER USED THAT TERM IN REGARD TO THE EVERGLADES? A. OH, I'M SURE I HAVE. Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU MEANT AT THE TIME YOU USED IT? A. WELL, I THINK I STATED IN MY EARLY STATEMENT, THAT IN TERMS OF THE UNITED STATES, IT IS THE LARGEST SUBTROPICAL MARSH, ALKALINE MARSH SYSTEM THAT EXISTS IN THE U.S., TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q. ARE THERE SIMILAR ALKALINE MARSH SYSTEMS IN THE THAT YOU COULD NAME FOR ME? WORLD A. YES, THERE ARE SOME. Q. OKAY. A. AND BELIZE, I BELIEVE, HAS ONE THAT -- THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO GET A CHANCE TO LOOK AT. THERE MAY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 36 BE OTHER COMPONENTS IN SOUTH AMERICA. WE'VE HAD SOME CONTACTS WITH PEOPLE FROM DAVIS WHO HAVE BEEN STUDYING THOSE AND HAVE BEEN SENDING US INFORMATION ON STUDIES THAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO AND HAVE BEEN DOING IN A VERY LARGE AREA OF BELIZE, THAT HAS -- THAT HAVE MANY OF THE SAME SPECIES, APPARENTLY. AND IT'S AN ALKALINE BASE. I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED AT THE DOCUMENTS. THEY'VE ONLY SENT US SOME ON A PRELIMINARY BASIS. BUT I BELIEVE THERE ARE PROBABLY OTHER AREAS IN SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERICA THAT WOULD BE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR. Q. BUT THE ONE IN BELIZE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT COMES TO MIND? A. THAT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT COMES TO MIND AT THE MOMENT. Q. DID YOU EVER DISCUSS THAT WITH DR. VYMAZAL? A. YES. IN FACT, I THINK IT WAS THROUGH DR. VYMAZAL THAT I BECAME AWARE OF THIS, THROUGH ANOTHER COLLEAGUE OF HIS, A CZECH COLLEAGUE, WHO -- THEY SEEM TO BE PERMEATING THE U.S. FROM THE EAST AND WEST COAST. AND THERE ARE SEVERAL SCIENTISTS, I BELIEVE AT U.C. DAVIS THAT ARE WORKING ON THAT. IN FACT, WE SAT AT, I BELIEVE, COLUMBUS, OHIO, IN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 37 THE INTERNATIONAL MEETING, AND DISCUSSED THE POSSIBILITY OF DOING A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE EVERGLADES AND BELIZE MARSH SYSTEM BECAUSE THERE WERE SO MANY SIMILARITIES. Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THEM? NO, YOU HAVEN'T, BECAUSE YOU JUST DISCUSSED THEM WITH DR. VYMAZAL, I'M SURE. A. DID I EVER SEE -- I'M SORRY? Q. YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE ONES IN BELIZE, SO YOU HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE? A. I'VE ONLY SEEN PICTURES AND A LITTLE BIT OF DATA, BUT I HAVE NOT GONE--- Q. WHY HAVE YOU STUDIED PHOSPHORUS DYNAMICS SO EXTENSIVELY IN REGARD TO WETLANDS? A. WELL, THE SIGN OF A SUCCESSFUL CAREER, I THINK, IN ANY FIELD IS TO FIND YOUR OWN NICHE. IN ECOLOGY, WHEN I WAS A YOUNGER MAN, IT WAS AN AREA THAT WAS SORT OF LEFT OPEN, AND IT WAS ONE THAT VERY LITTLE INFORMATION WAS AVAILABLE ON WITH WETLANDS. IT WAS AN AREA TWENTY YEARS AGO, PEOPLE WERE NOT REALLY VERY INTERESTED IN WETLANDS, EXCEPT FOR WATERFALL USAGE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND IT TURNED OUT TO BE AN AREA -- A VERY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 38 EXCITING AREA, THE WHOLE WETLANDS FIELD, AND SO I DECIDED TO MOVE INTO THIS AREA, AND IT BECAME AN INTEREST. AND ONE OF THE EARLY INTERESTS I HAD WITH STUDYING PLANT STRESS AND SOIL BIOGEOCHEMISTRY WAS TO LOOK AT AN AREA THAT PEOPLE HADN'T LOOKED AT. SO, I GOT INTO IT. Q. WELL, YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, BUT OTHER THAN THIS WAS A GREAT NICHE, WHAT'S THE IMPORTANCE OF PHOSPHORUS DYNAMICS IN WETLANDS? A. PHOSPHORUS IS A -- IS A VERY IMPORTANT NUTRIENT FOR ALL FORMS OF LIFE. IT'S ONE OF THE CRITICAL PARTS, SINCE WITHOUT PHOSPHORUS, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO FORM ATP AND TO HAVE ANY ENERGY TRANSFERS AND ANY LIFE AS WE KNOW IT, OR THERE MAY BE A FEW EXCEPTIONS TO THAT, BUT AS FAR AS I KNOW, IT'S -- AT LEAST BIOTIC LIFE. IT'S A CRITICAL ELEMENT FROM THE TIMES OF EARLY STUDY, LIEBIG, FOR EXAMPLE, SOME OF THE EARLY GERMANS, TO REALIZE THAT CROPS REQUIRED CERTAIN NUTRIENTS. AND THERE HAVE LITERALLY NOW BEEN MILLIONS OF ARTICLES WRITTEN ON THE IMPORTANCE OF PHOSPHORUS FOR PLANT GROWTH, ANIMAL GROWTH. THE DYNAMICS OF ALMOST ALL LIFE IS TIED TO PHOSPHORUS. IT'S DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 39 A -- IT'S A CRITICAL ELEMENT FOR SURVIVAL, FOR ORGANISMS, AND IT MUST BE PRESENT, AND IT MUST BE RECYCLED. Q. YOU DESCRIBED THIS AS A PHOSPHORUS LIMITED SYSTEM. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? A. WELL, BACK TO LIEBIG'S DEFINITION, WHICH I TEACH IN MY ECOLOGY CLASS, A LIMITING NUTRIENT IS SOMETHING THAT WHEN ADDED TO THE SYSTEM WILL CAUSE AN INCREASE IN GROWTH, AND THAT'S A TYPICAL WAY IN WHICH IT'S BEEN UTILIZED. THE CONCEPT OF A LIMITING FACTOR THAT ECOLOGISTS HAVE USED IS PRETTY MUCH THAT. IT IS WHEN ADDED TO THE SYSTEM -- FOR EXAMPLE, THE EVERGLADES, AS I MENTIONED, WAS A PHOSPHORUS LIMITED SYSTEM, ACCORDING TO WHAT INFORMATION WE HAVE -- SOME OF THAT COMING FROM SOME EARLY WORK. SOME OF THAT APPEARING TO COME FROM OUR WORK -- THAT YOU'LL GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH, AND SO IT'S VERY CRITICAL TO -- TO THE SYSTEM TO -- IF YOU LOOK AT A SYSTEM LIKE MOST PEATLANDS, LIKE THE EVERGLADES, YOU MAY FIND ALSO THAT POTASSIUM IS A LIMITING ELEMENT FOR THOSE PARTICULAR AREAS. AND IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE IN MANY PEATLAND SYSTEMS THAT, DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU DO, COPPER, ALTHOUGH NOT A STANDARD IT'S A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 40 MICRONUTRIENT -- COULD BE A LIMITING. SO THERE ARE MANY LIMITING NUTRIENTS ON THE SYSTEM. Q. BUT THOSE AREN'T OPINIONS THAT YOU INTEND TO OFFER IN REGARD TO THE EVERGLADES, ARE THEY, THAT POTASSIUM IS A LIMITING ELEMENT? YOU WERE JUST USING THAT BY WAY OF EXAMPLE? A. I -- I DON'T THINK SO AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME THAT I WILL. WE HAVEN'T FULLY ANALYZED OUR POTASSIUM DATA, BUT I DO THINK THAT THAT'S A POSSIBILITY, POTASSIUM IS LIMITING, BUT I'M NOT--- Q. SO, YOU'RE -- YOU ARE ANALYZING YOUR DATA TO SEE IF POTASSIUM IS, IN FACT, AN ADDITIONAL LIMITING FACTOR? A. THAT'S RIGHT. I WILL BE LOOKING AT THAT. I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO GO THROUGH THE POTASSIUM DATA, BUT--- Q. ARE THERE ANY OTHER ELEMENTS THAT YOU WOULD BE LOOKING AT AS POTENTIALLY LIMITING FACTORS, THAT YOU'RE STILL ANALYZING DATA? A. WELL, WE LOOK AT THE WHOLE SWEEP, BUT I -- AT FIRST CUT, I MEAN, BUT I WOULD THINK FROM MY EXPERIENCE, THERE ARE USUALLY, ESPECIALLY IN FRESHWATER PEATLAND SYSTEMS, IT'S USUALLY THOSE TWO THAT I TALKED ABOUT PRIMARILY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 41 Q. WAS IT JUST THE PHOSPHORUS AND THE POTASSIUM? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ARE THERE ANY OTHER CHEMISTRY ELEMENTS THAT YOU ARE CONTINUING TO EXAMINE DATA THAT WOULD NOT -- OR -- EXCUSE ME -- THAT WOULD BE LIMITING FACTORS OR IMPORTANT FACTORS, TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF EVERGLADES SOIL CHEMISTRY? A. WELL, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NUTRIENTS, THAT WOULD PROBABLY COVER THE NUTRIENTS AT THIS TIME. Q. BUT ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE CHEMICAL? I THINK THE QUESTION WAS BROADER, AS TO ALL -- ALL SOIL CHEMISTRY, ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU'RE EXAMINING DATA, THAT YOU MIGHT BE OFFERING AN OPINION ON AT TRIAL? MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO FORM. WITNESS: WELL, REPEAT THAT, PLEASE. I'M SORRY, MAYBE I DIDN'T--- MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU READ IT BACK, PLEASE? (THEREUPON, THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWER APPEARING ON PAGE 41, LINES 4-15, WERE REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) WITNESS: ONE MORE TIME. I WANT TO SEE YOU PUSH THE BUTTONS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 42 (THEREUPON, THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWER APPEARING ON PAGE 41, LINES 4-15, WERE REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MR. BURGESS: I JOIN IN MR. GREEN'S OBJECTION. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, DO YOU UNDERSTAND--- A. YEAH. Q. --- WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO GO? A. WELL, WHEN YOU SAID OTHER IMPORTANT FACTORS, AS I SAID BEFORE, IN TERMS OF SOIL CHEMISTRY, I WILL BE LOOKING AT -- WE PROBABLY -- OTHER PIECES OF INFORMATION COULD BE BROUGHT TO BEAR. WHEN I -- WHEN I HAVE A CHANCE TO PULL MY INFORMATION TOGETHER, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, PRIMARILY WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST THREE PLUS YEARS IS COLLECTING DATA AND ANALYZING DATA SPECIFICALLY TO UNDERSTAND PHOSPHORUS DYNAMICS AND STORAGE. SO, ANYTHING THAT'S RELATED TO THAT, RELATED TO HYDROLOGY OR REDOX OR COMPONENTS THAT HELP ME UNDERSTAND THAT, I WILL RELY ON AS I NEED. BUT I CAN'T AT THIS MOMENT TELL YOU EVERY SPECIFIC COMPONENT. I JUST -- I JUST DON'T HAVE THAT IN MY -- AT MY FINGERTIPS, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 43 WHAT WE'VE BEEN, YOU KNOW, SERIOUSLY, WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING. AND WE HAVE A LOT OF DATA WE HAVE NOT FULLY ANALYZED. WE HAVE -- I HOPE YOU REALIZE WHEN YOU LOOKED AT -- THROUGH ALL OF OUR FILES, HOW MUCH DATA WE HAVE COLLECTED. WE HAVE COLLECTED A TREMENDOUS VOLUME OF DATA. Q. TRUST ME, WE REALIZE. A. AND WE HAVE NOT HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO ANALYZE ALL OF THAT. AND SO, IN FACT, WHAT NORMALLY OCCURS IN A PROJECT IS YOU COLLECT DATA AND YOU START ANALYZING, AND THEN YOU -- THEN YOU REANALYZE, AND THEN, IN FACT, THE LATTER PARTS OF THE STUDY, YOU REALLY SYNTHESIZE AND PULL THIS INFORMATION TOGETHER, AND THAT'S WHERE WE REALLY ARE. Q. SO, IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU'RE AT AN EARLY STAGE OF YOUR SYNTHESIS OF YOUR DATA? A. EARLY TO MIDDLE--- Q. ALL RIGHT. A. --- BUT, YOU KNOW, IT DEPENDS AGAIN ON WHICH ASPECTS. Q. ALL RIGHT. AS I UNDERSTAND FROM QUESTIONING YOUR VARIOUS RESEARCHERS, DR. RICHARDSON, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO DOES THE SYNTHESIS. IS THAT ACCURATE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 44 A. I DO SOME OF THE SYNTHESIS, BUT DR. QUALLS, DR. CRAFT AND DR. RADER ARE VERY WELL QUALIFIED SCIENTISTS, AND THEY PROVIDE A VERY LARGE PROPORTION OF THE SYNTHESIS. WE TALK ABOUT IT. WE DO IT AS A TEAM. AND SO TO SAY THAT I DO ALL THE SYNTHESIS WOULD NOT BE A FAIR STATEMENT. Q. IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU DO THE SYNTHESIS BETWEEN THE VARIOUS DISCIPLINES THAT EACH OF THOSE SCIENTISTS MIGHT BRING TO BEAR ON A PARTICULAR ASPECT, SUCH AS DR. QUALLS FOCUSES A GREAT DEAL ON WATER QUALITY. A. AGAIN, WHEN WE PUT TOGETHER PAPERS AND WE DO THINGS, WE SIT DOWN AND IT'S A -- IT'S A JOINT EFFORT, SO THAT WE TRY TO -- WE BASICALLY DRAW UPON EVERYONE'S EXPERTISE IN TERMS OF THEIR AREA, AND THEN WE HAVE A NUMBER OF DISCUSSIONS ON, YOU KNOW, PARTICULAR ASPECTS. SO, IT'S A JOINT EFFORT ON SYNTHESIS. I MEAN, I DO SYNTHESIS. THEY DO SYNTHESIS. YOU CANNOT -- AS I'M SURE YOU REALIZE, YOU CANNOT HAVE BRIGHT YOUNG PEOPLE AND THEN ESSENTIALLY NOT ALLOW THEM TO HAVE THEIR ACADEMIC FREEDOM TO COME TO THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS AND TO DO THEIR OWN THING. SO, WE RUN IT VERY MUCH LIKE A TYPICAL UNIVERSITY ENVIRONMENT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 45 Q. I WOULD ASSUME THAT AS TO EACH OF THESE DATA COLLECTIONS, AND AS TO HYDROLOGY, REDOX, AND OTHER COMPONENTS, YOU ARE AT VARYING STAGES OF YOUR SYNTHESIS. IS THAT RIGHT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. I HAVE THIS FEELING I'M GOING TO SEE DURHAM AGAIN, AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. A. HOPEFULLY THE WEATHER WILL BE BETTER. Q. IT CAN'T GET MUCH WORSE. A. WELL, I THINK IT COULD. MR. KILLINGER: SURE IT CAN. A. YOU COULD BE HERE THE DAY IT SNOWS EIGHTEEN INCHES IN ONE DAY--- Q. I WOULD LIKE THAT, ACTUALLY. A. --- OR YOU WILL PROBABLY BE HERE ON A DAY THAT IT'S -- WHAT I CALL OUR NINETY-FIVE/NINETY-FIVE DAYS. IT'S NINETY-FIVE PERCENT HUMIDITY AND NINETY-FIVE PERCENT -- NINETY-FIVE DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. Q. THAT'S MIAMI. I'VE SEEN THOSE. IN REGARD TO HYDROLOGY, REDOX, AND OTHER COMPONENTS, DO YOU HAVE WORKING HYPOTHESES THAT YOU ARE PURSUING, THAT YOU ARE IN AT SOME ITERATION OF YOUR SYNTHESIS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 46 A. IN A GENERAL SENSE, I GUESS. BUT COULD YOU JUST, YOU KNOW, COULD YOU JUST DO THEM ONE AT A TIME, OR HOW WOULD YOU--- Q. ALL RIGHT. AS TO HYDROLOGY, DO YOU HAVE SOME WORKING HYPOTHESIS ON WHICH YOU'RE WORKING WITH ONGOING DATA, THAT YOU'VE NOT COME TO SOME FINAL CONCLUSION? A. WELL, THE OVERALL HYPOTHESIS, AFTER LOOKING AT BACKGROUND INFORMATION AND SO FORTH, THAT WE STARTED OUT WITH, WAS THAT THE HYDROLOGY CONTROLS THE EVERGLADES IN TERMS OF THE COMMUNITY AND ECOSYSTEM DYNAMICS, THAT IT IS THE PRIMARY CONTROLLING FACTOR. AND I THINK OUR DATA AND EVIDENCE AND WHAT WE'VE COLLECTED TO DATE BEARS THIS OUT. Q. WHICH DATA IS THAT, DR. RICHARDSON, ON HYDROLOGY? A. WELL, IN TERMS OF THE WHOLE EVERGLADES, THE DATA THAT WE HAVE LOOKED AT IS PRIMARILY -- A GOOD PORTION OF IT IS CORPS OF ENGINEERS DATA, U.S.G.S DATA, SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT DATA, A NUMBER OF REPORTS, MY PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS FROM BEING IN THE FIELD SINCE LATE 188, SO, THOSE ARE ON A VERY LARGE LANDSCAPE BASIS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 47 Q. SO, IT'S MOSTLY FROM THE LITERATURE, THE GOVERNMENT REPORTS, ETCETERA--- A. RIGHT. Q. --- THAT YOU'RE BASING YOUR OPINION? A. FROM THE GOVERNMENT DATA BANKS AND SO ON. Q. OKAY. NOW, DO YOU HAVE DATA THAT YOU'RE COLLECTING THAT WILL SUBSTANTIATE THAT THIS IS THE PRIMARY CONTROLLING FACTOR, AND THAT YOU ARE STILL ANALYZING, THAT WILL SUPPORT THIS BELIEF? A. WE ARE CURRENTLY ANALYZING -- I'M CURRENTLY LOOKING AT SOME OF THAT DATA, IN TERMS OF THE HYDROLOGY DATA, THE WEATHER PATTERN DATA, AND SOME OF THE OTHER INFORMATION, TO COME UP WITH A MORE OF A LANDSCAPE ECOSYSTEM VIEW OF THE HYDROLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES. Q. WHO'S WORKING ON THIS WITH YOU? A. PRIMARILY, I HAVE A GRAD STUDENT THAT HELPS ME OCCASIONALLY WITH THAT WORK. Q. WHO IS THAT? A. SONG QIAN. Q. COULD YOU SPELL THAT FOR US? A. S-0-N-G. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. Q-I-A-N. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 48 Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU ACTUALLY COLLECTING DATA YOURSELF? A. HYDROLOGY DATA? Q. YES, SIR. A. WE HAVE SOME HYDROLOGY DATA FROM COMPONENTS FROM SOME OF OUR PARTICULAR PROJECTS. THE FERTILIZER STUDIES, WHICH ARE AT THREE SITES, HAVE NOW GOING INTO THEIR THIRD YEAR OF HYDROLOGY WATER LEVEL DATA, SOME GROUNDWATER DATA. Q. FROM WHOM? DID YOU COLLECT THE GROUNDWATER DATA? A. WE -- ONE OF OUR TECHNICIANS HAS BEEN COLLECTING SOME OF THIS DATA. I BELIEVE IT'S SHALLOW GROUNDWATER DATA. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT IT. Q. WHERE IS THAT BEING COLLECTED? A. ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE SITE, SPECIFIC LOCATION, OR? Q. YES, SIR, I WAS. I'M SORRY. A. WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2B. WE HAVE WATER LEVEL DATA IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE DOSING SITE. THAT'S BEING MONITORED ON A DAILY BASIS. WE HAVE COLLECTED WATER LEVELS IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, ALONG THE GRADIENT STUDY. Q. WATER LEVEL DATA? A. UH-HUH (YES). DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 49 Q. HOW IS THAT COLLECTED? A. THE WATER LEVEL DATA WAS COLLECTED IN CONJUNCTION TO OUR EIGHTEEN TO TWENTY MONTH INITIAL GRADIENT ANALYSIS, AND IT WAS BASICALLY COLLECTED AT EACH OF OUR LOCATIONS BY MYSELF, OR DR. QUALLS, OR DR. CRAFT, OR BOB JOHNSON, AT A SPECIFIC SITE LOCATION WITH A -- USING SORT OF A PORTABLE STAFF GAUGE TYPE APPROACH. Q. IS THIS IN ONE OF YOUR APPENDICES? A. YES, YOU HAVE ALL OF THIS DATA. Q. WELL, TO SAY I HAVE YOUR DATA, IT'S ALMOST LIKE GRAINS OF SANDS ON THE BEACH, DR. RICHARDSON. WHERE IS IT? A. IT'S -- WHEN YOU SAY ALL OF MY APPENDICES, I COULDN'T TELL YOU--- Q. WELL, IS IT -- IS IT -- IS IT -- YOU BELIEVE IT'S PUBLISHED IN ONE OF THE APPENDICES--- A. WELL, I -- THERE IS--- Q. --- THE WATER -- THE HYDROLOGY DATA? A. A PORTION OF IT IS IN -- IN THE APPENDICES, AND SOME OF IT IS ALREADY IN GRAPH FORM AND IS SPRINKLED THROUGHOUT THE VARIOUS DOCUMENTS IN THE APPROPRIATE PLACES, FOR THE APPROPRIATE STUDIES THAT I HAVE JUST MENTIONED. FOR EXAMPLE, THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 50 FERTILIZER STUDY, THERE -- IN THE LAST REPORT, I BELIEVE, THERE WAS -- I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY -- BUT TWENTY-FOUR, TWENTY-SIX, NINETEEN MONTHS OF WATER LEVEL DATA, BY SITE, IN THERE. Q. OKAY. A. SO, IT--- Q. SO, IN THE 192 ANNUAL REPORT, WE WOULD FIND WATER LEVEL DATA? A. YOU WOULD FIND SOME WATER LEVEL DATA. THAT IS CORRECT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). AND WOULD IT BE IN THE APPENDICES, TOO, DO YOU BELIEVE, THAT YOU HAVE JUST -- WE GOT A DRAFT LAST WEEK OR SOMETIME. A. I HAVE INSTRUCTED MY PEOPLE THAT THE WAY WE DID THIS PROJECT, WAS THAT WE WOULD PRODUCE AN ANNUAL REPORT, AND THEN ALL OF THE GRAPHS AND THE DATA THAT WE HAD WOULD BE SUPPLIED IN THE APPENDICES--- Q. OKAY. A. --- WHICH HAS NOT BEEN AN EASY TASK. MOST RESEARCHERS DO NOT USUALLY DO THAT. Q. WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE IN REGARD TO HYDROLOGY DATA THAT YOU'RE STILL ANALYZING? A. WE HAVE A SMALL STUDY THAT WE ESTABLISHED, WHICH SOME PEOPLE REFER TO AS THE HYDROLOGY STUDY. I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 51 PREFER TO REFER TO IT AS A RECOLONIZATION DISTURBANCE STUDY, BUT IT HAS A HYD -- IT HAS A HYDROLOGY COMPONENT. WE ALSO HAVE TWO GREENHOUSE STUDIES THAT LOOKED AT HYDROLOGY IN SHORT-TERM STUDIES, FOR MASTER'S STUDENTS, AS A PRELIMINARY BASIS TO GET A HANDLE ON PLANT RESPONSE PRIMARILY AND TO SEE HOW IT MIGHT AFFECT VARIOUS NUTRIENT REDISTRIBUTIONS. Q. RIGHT. AND THAT WOULD BE THE SUTTER AND THE RAIKES GREENHOUSE STUDIES? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. WE HAD -- WE HAD, AS I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE, DONE MS. SUTTERIS DEPOSITION. BUT MS. RAIKES' PAPER AND INFORMATION, WE HAD MORE OR LESS AGREED, AND I BELIEVE YOU WERE PRESENT, THAT IT WOULD BE PROVIDED, AND THAT WE WOULD PROBABLY ASK YOU QUESTIONS ON IT, AND AVOID HAVING TO DEPOSE MS. RAIKES ON THAT. WE HAVE NOT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, RECEIVED THAT PAPER. IS IT AVAILABLE? A. IT SHOULD BE AVAILABLE VERY SOON. IT HAS BEEN APPROVED FOR HER MASTER'S. Q. RIGHT. A. IT LEFT MY DESK TO GO TO THE DEAN'S OFFICE, AND HEN IT MUST GO IT ROUTES THROUGH THE PROCESS, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 52 SO IT'S SOMEWHERE IN THE UNIVERSITY PROCESS, FOR HER GRADUATION. I DON'T HAVE A COPY OF IT AT THE MOMENT. Q. DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT WE COULD OBTAIN ONE AND SAVE OURSELVES A WHOLE TRIP REGARDING THAT, JUST TO DO IT SOMETIME THIS WEEK? A. IT MAY VERY WELL BE VERY POSSIBLE TO DO THAT. Q. OKAY. I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IF YOU CAN--- A. I DON'T -- I CAN TALK WITH RALPH AND SEE WHAT--- Q. YEAH, IF THAT'S POSSIBLE, TO GET YOUR HANDS ON THAT, AND JUST CLEAN UP ONE LITTLE TINY AREA, WHICH IS WHAT I BELIEVE THE RAIKES GREENHOUSE STUDY PROBABLY IS. DON'T YOU? A. I'M SORRY. Q. IT'S JUST A TINY AREA THAT WE WOULD CLEAN UP. A. IT'S A -- IT'S A SMALL STUDY--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- THAT WE USED -- SCIENCE IS A LONG-TERM PROCESS OF COLLECTING SMALL PIECES OF INFORMATION--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- WHICH YOU PUT TOGETHER. Q. OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE WEATHER PATTERN DATA THAT'S PART OF THIS LANDSCAPE ECOSYSTEM VIEW, WHAT IS THAT WEATHER PATTERN DATA? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 53 A. PRIMARILY RAINFALL DATA, LONG-TERM RAINFALL DATA. Q. FROM WHOM? A. IT'S FROM SEVERAL SOURCES. I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHICH BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT STATIONS, BUT I THINK SOME OF IT CAME FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. SOME OF IT CAME FROM, I BELIEVE, U.S.G.S. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND I CAN'T REMEMBER -- WHAT I'M HESITATING ON IS I CAN'T REMEMBER IF THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS HAD ANY OR NOT. BUT--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---IT'S ALL PUBLIC INFORMATION. Q. DID YOU PROVIDE COPIES OF THIS DATA WHEN YOU PROVIDED ALL THE DOCUMENTS? A. I BELIEVE I DID. Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT SURE? A. I'M NOT POSITIVE. I MEAN, I'M PRETTY SURE THAT I PROVIDED ALL OF THE -- AT LEAST A HARD COPY OF ALL THIS INFORMATION. IF WE WERE TO ASK FOR A LIST OF THIS DATA, COULD THAT BE PROVIDED? MR. BURGESS: A LIST OF WHAT DATA? MS. PONZOLI: THE DATA IN REGARD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 54 TO -- WELL, ALL OF THIS HYDROLOGY DATA ON WHICH HE'S DEVELOPING LANDSCAPE ECOSYSTEM OPINIONS. A. WELL, I THINK YOU HAVE ALL OF THAT DATA, AS I SAID, IN -- THERE ARE SOME FILES THAT I BELIEVE WERE LISTED AS HYDROLOGY FILES, IN MY DOCUMENTS. AND THERE ARE SOME COMPONENTS OF THAT, AS I SAID, THROUGHOUT THE ANNUAL REPORTS, ESPECIALLY THE COMPONENTS THAT WERE RELATED TO THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AND THAT DATA WAS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE GREEN-COVERED REPORTS FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. IT'S ONE OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, THAT I DON'T REMEMBER THE NUMBER, BUT IT'S LIKE 86 DASH SOMETHING, OR -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS -- 88 DASH SOMETHING, THAT IS NOTHING BUT RAINFALL DATA. Q. OKAY. IN REGARD TO THE ECOSYSTEM VIEW OF THE LANDSCAPE WORKING ANALYSIS THAT YOU'RE DOING, DO YOU HAVE A WORKING HYPOTHESIS AS TO WHERE YOU'RE GOING WITH THAT? A. WORKING HYPOTHESIS RELATES BACK TO THE PRIMARY CONTROLLING FACTOR FOR THE EVERGLADES, AND THAT IS THE -- THAT HYDROLOGY -- HY -- THE HYDROPERIOD FOR THE EVERGLADES HAS BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERED, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 55 HAS AFFECTED ECOSYSTEM SUCCESSION PATTERNS, AND THERE'S A NUMBER THINGS RELATED TO THAT. THE FUNCTIONING OF THE EVERGLADES SYSTEM HAS BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERED BY HYDROLOGY. THAT'S ANOTHER WAY OF -- AND THAT RELATES TO THE MASSIVE DRAINAGE AND ALSO SOME NATURAL CONDITIONS RELATED TO DROUGHT. Q. NOW, I ASK YOU, DR. RICHARDSON, WERE THESE DOCUMENTS -- DID YOU PERSONALLY, OR ONE OF YOUR ASSISTANTS, WRITE TO SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, U.S.G.S, THE CORPS, OR WHOMEVER, WHATEVER GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY TO OBTAIN THIS DATA? A. WE -- I THINK I PERSONALLY WENT TO THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AND WENT TO THEIR DOCUMENTS SECTION, AND OBTAINED HARD COPIES OF MOST OF THEIR RAINFALL DATA, THAT I COULD OBTAIN, ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. THE DATA FROM, I BELIEVE THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS, I CAN'T I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY WHICH ONE--- (THEREUPON, MR. BURGESS HANDS THE WITNESS A CUP OF WATER.) DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 56 WITNESS: THANK YOU. A. --- IS PUBLIC RECORD, WHICH YOU CAN OBTAIN FROM THE COMPUTER ACCESS SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE AT DUKE, OR ALMOST ANY UNIVERSITY. YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO GO INTO, I BELIEVE THE U.S.G.S. FILES AND SIMPLY CALL UP THE APPROPRIATE LOCATIONS OR NUMBERS, AND THAT DATA IS -- COMES TO YOU ON A COMPRESSED FILE, AND YOU OBTAIN IT THAT WAY. AND SO A COMPONENT OF IT, A LARGE COMPONENT OF OUR DATA WAS OBTAINED THAT WAY. AND THEN THIRDLY, FOR SOME DATA, WE CONTACTED DR. JOHN DAVIS, WHO HAD THE ABILITY TO OBTAIN SOME OF THE DATA, AND I THINK WE OBTAINED COMPONENTS OF THAT DATA FROM HIM. I DON'T REMEMBER -- I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE HYDROLOGY DATA IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS. I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH COMPONENTS ARE WHICH. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT AT THE TIME OF TRIAL THAT YOU WILL BE CALLED UPON TO OFFER OPINIONS REGARDING THIS FACTOR, THAT HYDROLOGY IS THE PRIMARY CONTROLLING FACTOR FOR THE EVERGLADES? A. I PROBABLY WILL, TO SOME DEGREE. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU -- HAVE YOU BEEN DEVELOPING THAT WORK? THIS SORT OF GETS INTO THE SECOND MAIN CATEGORY I WANTED TO GO INTO, BUT WE'RE GOING TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 57 HAVE -- I NEED TO -- I HAVE A QUESTION IN MIND AND I NEED TO ASK IT NOW. ARE YOU DOING THIS AS PART OF YOUR GRANT UNDER THE EPD, OR IS THIS PART OF YOUR WORK AS AN EXPERT WITNESS ON BEHALF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE OR THE COOPERATIVE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, JUST BECAUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT -- THE GIST OF YOUR QUESTION. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THIS IS -- DO YOU UNDERSTAND DR. RICHARDSON? A. ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE HYDROLOGY? Q. YES, SIR. YES, SIR. A. SOME OF THIS -- SOME OF THIS WORK IS -- IT'S KIND OF HARD TO SEPARATE, BECAUSE SOME OF THIS WORK IS A NORMAL COMPONENT OF DOING THE RESEARCH ON THE EVERGLADES. YOU CANNOT STUDY THE EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEM WITHOUT HAVING SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE HYDROLOGY. SO, WE HAVE DIFFERENT SCALES OR LEVELS OF HYDROLOGY WORK. AND SO, IN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS OF THE EVERGLADES, I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME OF THIS HYDROLOGY WORK. OKAY, SO THAT WORK IS -- AND THAT'S WHY, AS I SAID, I HAVE TURNED OVER THOSE DATA SETS TO YOU. BUT, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 58 AGAIN, THIS IS -- THIS IS IN SOME OF ITS EARLY FORMATIVE STAGES, AND SORT OF THE MIDDLE PART. I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS, AND -- AS WELL AS PHOSPHORUS, AS WELL AS SOILS, AS WELL AS A NUMBER OF COMPONENTS, SO -- BUT IN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS OF THE EVERGLADES, I THINK IT HAS TO BE LOOKED AT. Q. I THINK WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SORT OUT WAS WHERE I WANT TO GO WITH THE NEXT GLOBAL LINE OF QUESTIONS IS, IS WHAT WORK'DO YOU DO ON BEHALF OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER FOR THE EPD, AND WHAT WORK DO YOU DO AS AN EXPERT WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND THE SUGAR CANE GROWER'S COOPERATIVE. AND I GUESS YOUR ANSWER WAS AN HONEST ONE. IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE OUT? A. IT IS. Q. OKAY. A. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF-PHOSPHORUS WORK. I PRIMARILY -- I HAVE MADE A VERY CLEAR, CONSCIOUS EFFORT TO KEEP WHAT WORK I DO FOR THE EPD, WHICH IS A PUBLIC ENTITY -- THAT INFORMATION IS ALL AVAILABLE. THAT RESEARCH INFORMATION, IT'S IN OUR ANNUAL REPORTS, WE SEND IT OUT TO EVERYONE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 59 THAT -- I DO NOT DO ANY RESEARCH, LITERALLY, FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, IN TERMS OF RESEARCH, FIELD RESEARCH THAT RELATES TO ANY OF THAT RESEARCH. AND, SO, WHAT I'VE TRIED TO DO IS TO SEPARATE, BECAUSE IT IS A -- AN AREA THAT I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR ON. THE CONSULTANCY PART OF WHAT I DO RELATES MORE TO REVIEWING OF DOCUMENTS, OPINIONS ON QUESTIONS, OPINIONS ON AREAS OF EXPERTISE, OPINIONS ON OTHER AREAS, ETCETERA. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S NOT FIELD RESEARCH THAT I AM DOING. Q. DR. JOHN DAVIS, HAS -- WAS DR. DAVIS A STUDENT OR A COLLEAGUE OF YOURS AT ONE TIME? A. NO, HE WAS NOT. Q. OKAY. OKAY. HAS YOUR ASSOCIATION WITH DR. DAVIS BEEN ESSENTIALLY ON BEHALF OF YOUR CONSULTANCY WORK? A. ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY, WITH THE EXCEPTION FROM TIME TO TIME, HE HAS SENT ME DATA THAT HE WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO THAT I -- WHICH I JUST ALLUDED TO EARLIER, WHICH WAS SOME COMPONENTS OF HYDROLOGY, AND -- I MEAN, THAT'S -- THAT'S THE PRIMARY. HE DOES NOT -- HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY COMPONENT TO DO WITH OUR EPD RESEARCH, WHATSOEVER. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 60 Q. I THINK YOU'VE BEEN TOUCHING ON YOUR PHOSPHORUS CYCLING WORK, BUT WHAT WILL BE THE GLOBAL OPINION THAT YOU BELIEVE YOU MIGHT BE CALLED UPON TO OFFER AT THE TIME OF TRIAL REGARDING PHOSPHORUS CYCLING, IN THAT SAME BROAD OUTLINE FASHION THAT WE WERE DISCUSSING BEFORE? MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION THAT I MADE BEFORE. A. WELL, I THINK AGAIN, AND I SAID, I THINK IT COVERS HERE PHOSPHORUS, IN THE SUBSECTION B, PHOSPHORUS CYCLING, PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE RATES. I COULD SAY THAT PROBABLY I WOULD BRING AS MUCH INFORMATION TO BEAR ON UNDERSTANDING THE MECHANISMS BY WHICH PHOSPHORUS IS STORED AND RELEASED AND TRANSFERRED IN THE EVERGLADES, WHICH IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF TRYING TO UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY THE RESPONSE OF THE ECOSYSTEM ITSELF, BUT THE -- AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, I THINK OUR CENTRAL OBJECTIVE, TOO, FOR THE STUDY IS THE LONG-TERM STORAGE CAPACITY OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS. AND AS THIS INFORMATION RELATES TO OTHER COMPONENTS, THE CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS THAT HAVE BEEN PROPOSED, THEN I PROBABLY WOULD BE ASKED TO BRING AN OPINION AS TO HOW THAT RELATES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 61 Q. YOU MEAN YOUR OPINIONS AS TO THE ABILITY OF THE DESIGN -- CERTAIN DESIGNS OF STAIS TO HOLD CERTAIN AMOUNTS OF PHOSPHORUS, OR--- A. SOME COMPONENTS OF THAT, I'M SURE. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHICH ONES YOU WOULD OFFER OPINIONS ON, WHICH COMPONENTS YOU WOULD OFFER OPINIONS ON? A. I WOULD PROBABLY -- WELL, IT WOULD RELATE OBVIOUSLY TO THE PHOSPHORUS DYNAMICS, UNDERSTANDING -- EXCUSE ME -- HOW THE PHOSPHORUS IS STORED, RELEASED, TRANSFERRED, THE BIOGEOCHEMISTRY OF PHOSPHORUS, THE LONG-TERM RETENTION OF PHOSPHORUS, AND THE COMPONENTS THAT MAY AFFECT THAT, SUCH AS RETENTION TIME, AND WATER DEPTH AND OTHER COMPONENTS. Q. OKAY. I THINK I'M GOING TO HAVE TO RETURN TO THAT. THAT'S A WHOLE AREA THAT WEFLL PROBABLY HAVE TO SPEND--- A. I'M SURE YOU--- Q. --- TIME ON. A. --- WILL WANT TO SPEND SOME TIME ON THAT. Q. ALL RIGHT. WHAT ARE YOUR -- YOUR DOMINANT OPINIONS ON VEGETATIVE COMMUNITY DYNAMICS, THAT YOU BELIEVE YOU WILL OFFERING AT THE TIME OF TRIAL. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 62 MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MS. PONZOLI: MAY I ASK WHY, MR. GREEN? MR. GREEN: YEAH, I MEAN, YOU'RE ASKING HIM HIS DOMINANT OPINION, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? MS. PONZOLI: WHAT OPINION IS HE GOING TO OFFER AT THE TIME OF TRIAL. HE SORT OF -- YOU WEREN'T HERE FOR THE BEGINNING, BUT HE DOESN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT OPINIONS HE'S GOING TO OFFER AT TRIAL, AND SO I'M KIND OF COMING THROUGH THE BACK DOOR, TRYING TO FIND OUT WHERE HE THINKS HE'S GOING TO OFFER OPINIONS, AND I -- I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO DO IT. IF YOU HAVE A SUGGESTION, I'M PROBABLY AMENABLE. MR. GREEN: WELL, IT'S JUST SORT OF A CIRCLE. IF HE DOESN'T KNOW HIS FINAL OPINIONS, IT'S HARD FOR HIM NOW TO SPECULATE ON WHICH ONE MAY BE DOMINANT. THAT'S THAT'S MY PROBLEM. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR FINAL OPINIONS. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 63 Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO KNOW YOUR FINAL OPINIONS, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I SUSPECT OVER THE NEXT SIX TO EIGHT MONTHS, I WILL TRY TO, IN SOME OF THOSE AREAS, SEE HOW MUCH OF OUR DATA CAN BE BROUGHT TO BEAR ON SOME OF THESE TO HELP WITH THE FINAL OPINIONS. SOME OF THESE AREAS WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO COME TO FULL CLOSURE ON BY THEN, BUT WE'LL HAVE TO GO WITH THE BEST EVIDENCE WE HAVE AT HAND. AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN, WHEN I STARTED THIS PROJECT, I WAS -- ALTHOUGH I KNEW WAY IN THE BACK OF MY MIND, BECAUSE THERE WAS THIS LEGAL ASPECT, IT WAS MY HOPE, ALTHOUGH I'M NOT TRYING TO SAY THIS IN A NAIVE WAY, THAT THIS WOULD NOT COME TO BEAR, BUT IT WAS ALSO IN MY ORIGINAL DISCUSSIONS WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH THAT THIS WORK WOULD BE DONE IN AN OPEN WAY, AND THE FACTS WOULD BE WHAT THE FACTS WERE. AND SO ESSENTIALLY WE HAVE BEEN WORKING DILIGENTLY TO COLLECT ALL OF THE DATA WE COULD, UP FRONT, PROBABLY DATA THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN COLLECTED TEN YEARS AGO, BUT ANYWAYS, TRYING TO GET THIS DATA TOGETHER, AND THEN, AT SOME POINT, TRY TO PULL TOGETHER AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE FROM THIS. IT WAS NOT MY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 64 INTENTION -- IT WAS MY HOPE THAT THIS WOULD NOT BE INVOLVED IN THE LITIGATION COMPONENT, AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. Q. I THINK A LOT OF US SHARE THAT HOPE. WELL, WE ARE WHERE WE ARE. WE HAVE A DISCOVERY PRESENT DEADLINE OF THE END OF FEBRUARY, AND A PRESENT TRIAL DATE OF THE BEGINNING OF APRIL, PROBABLY TO BE PUSHED OVER TO SEPTEMBER THE 13TH, IS PROBABLY A REALISTIC -- WHAT WILL HAPPEN. ASSUMING THAT WE WOULD GO TO TRIAL SEPTEMBER THE 13TH, DR. RICHARDSON, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE YOUR OPINIONS WOULD BE REGARDING VEGETATIVE COMMUNITY DYNAMICS. A. CAN I ASK ONE QUESTION? Q. RIGHT. MR. BURGESS: JUST NOTE MY CONTINUING OBJECTION. A. WE KEEP SAYING TRIAL. I THOUGHT WE WERE IN JUST SORT OF AN ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING. IS THAT WHAT--- Q. THERE WILL BE A TRIAL, THOUGH, DR. RICHARDSON--- A. OH, THERE WILL BE A TRIAL? Q. --- AS PART OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEEDING. THE JUDGE HAS THE RIGHT TO FIND FACTS, AND I GUESS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 65 DECIDE IF YOUR EXPLANATION OF VEGETATIVE COMMUNITY DYNAMICS, ASSUMING IT DIFFERS FROM SOMEONE ELSE'S, IS THE APPROPRIATE ONE, OR SOMEONE ELSE'S IS THE APPROPRIATE ONE. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. SO, YOU KNOW, I GUESS, AS YOU UNDERSTAND, I HAVE A RIGHT TO UNDERSTAND--- A. SURE. Q. --- WHAT YOUR EXPLANATION IS, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M AFTER. A. SO REPHRASE THE QUESTION FROM THE START AGAIN. Q. RIGHT. WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE YOUR OPINION WOULD BE ON VEGETATIVE COMMUNITY DYNAMICS? MR. BURGESS: JUST NOTE MY CONTINUING OBJECTION THAT HIS OPINIONS WILL BE IN RESPONSE TO COUNSEL'S QUESTION; THAT WE DON'T NECESSARILY CONCUR WITH MS. PONZOLI WITH RESPECT TO WHAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF MAY BE IN THIS PROCEEDING, AND THAT IT MAY WELL BE THAT DR. RICHARDSONIS OPINIONS IN THIS AREA CAN ONLY BE DEVELOPED AFTER EXPRESSION OF OPINIONS IN THIS AREA BY THE UNITED STATES TOGETHER WITH THE DISTRICT AND THE OTHER INTERVENORS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 66 Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, DR. RICHARDSON, HAVE YOU--- MS. PONZOLI: WE DON'T AGREE, MR. BURGESS, BUT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO PUT YOUR OBJECTION ON THE RECORD. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ---HAVE YOU READ THE SWIM PLAN, THE PRESENT -- THE CURRENT SWIM PLAN? A. I HAVE READ PORTIONS OF IT, YES. Q. HAVE YOU READ THE PLANNING DOCUMENT ITSELF? A. IfM NOT SURE WHICH ONE THE PLANNING ONE -- IS THAT THE--- Q. THE SURFACE WATER IMPROVEMENT AND MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR THE EVERGLADES PLANNING DOCUMENT, MARCH 13, 1992? A. I THINK THERE ARE THREE OF THESE. IfM NOT SURE, BUT--- Q. I THINK THERE'S A SINGLE PLANNING DOCUMENT, AND THEN THERE ARE TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS AND APPENDICES. I'M NOT CLEAR ON THE TITLES OF THE OTHER TWO, AND I DIDN'T BRING THEM ALONG. MR. KILLINGER: I HAVE MINE, SUZAN, IF I CAN GET THEM. MS. PONZOLI: THEY ARE AS I SAY, AREN'T THEY? AREN'T THEY TECHNICAL APPENDICES? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 67 MR. KILLINGER: THE SUPPORTING INFORMATION DOCUMENT--- MS. PONZOLI: RIGHT. MR. KILLINGER: --- AND APPENDICES DOCUMENT. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. THE REASON I'M THUMBING THROUGH THIS THIS WAY IS BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY OF THESE DOCUMENTS. AND THIS ONE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THIS PLANNING DOCUMENT, I HAVE ONLY PERUSED VERY GENERALLY, BECAUSE, AS A SCIENTIST, IT HAD NO DATA, AND I WAS NOT VERY INTERESTED IN THIS DOCUMENT. Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU AWARE-OF THE DATA THAT IS CONTAINED IN THE ACCOMPANYING DOCUMENTS TO THIS ONE? A. I AM. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, I SUPPOSE, SINCE YOU SAY YOU'VE ONLY PERUSED IT, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHERE YOU WOULD DISAGREE WITH THE VEGETATIVE COMMUNITY DYNAMICS THAT ARE REFLECTED IN HERE; WHERE YOUR OPINION WOULD DIFFER FROM THE OPINIONS REFLECTED IN THIS DOCUMENT. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. THAT'S ACCURATE. I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT SPECIFICALLY. I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE NOT--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 68 Q. OKAY. A. --- REVIEWED THAT IN GREAT DETAIL. Q. OKAY. WELL, BRIEFLY, WHAT ARE YOUR VIEWS ON THE VEGETATIVE COMMUNITY DYNAMICS IN THE EVERGLADES? A. I BELIEVE THEY ARE SUMMARIZED IN ONE OF OUR EARLY REPORTS. I WROTE THE SECTION THAT, EARLY ON, DESCRIBED THE ROLE OF SIX FACTORS THAT CONTROL ECOSYSTEM SUCCESSION IN THE EVERGLADES. AND I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE SOME OF THOSE CONTROLLED BY HOMO SAPIENS, SOME OF THEM NOT, AND THEY ESSENTIALLY START WITH CLIMATE, AND ESSENTIALLY THEN YOU LOOK AT HYDROPERIOD AND FIRE, AND YOU LOOK AT NUTRIENTS, AND YOU LOOKED AT NATIVE SPECIES SEED BANKS, AND YOU LOOK AT EXOTIC SPECIES INVASIONS. AND, SO, IT IS MY ECOLOGICAL OPINION THAT, IN FACT, THE VEGETATION DYNAMICS OF THE EVERGLADES IS CONTROLLED BY A COMPLEX OF ISSUES THAT VARY, TO SOME DEGREE, BY LOCATION. NOW, WHICH ONE OF THOSE ARE MORE IMPORTANT? THE OVERRIDING FACTOR IS THE ALTERATION TO HYDROPERIOD, WHICH IN TURN HAS AFFECTED THE FIRE CYCLE. AND SECONDARILY -- AND THE SECONDARY EFFECTS INCLUDE EXOTIC SPECIES INVASIONS, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 69 NUTRIENTS, POSSIBLY ALTERATIONS OF SEED BANKS, DUE TO THE ALTERATION TO THE PRIMARY FACTORS. NORMALLY ECOLOGISTS LOOK AT PRIMARY AND SECONDARY FACTORS. Q. I BELIEVE YOU MADE A PRESENTATION ON THIS, SOMETHING LIKE AUGUST 189 -- IS THAT ACCURATE TO THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT BOARD? A. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION, TOO. Q. OKAY. AND YOU EXPLAINED THESE SAME FIRE, HYDROPERIOD, NUTRIENTS, CLIMATE, SEED BANKS, EXOTIC INVASION? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THOSE OPINIONS THAT YOU EXPRESSED IN THAT PRESENTATION REGARDING THE VEGETATIVE COMMUNITIES? A. I THINK IN GENERAL TERMS, YES. THERE MAY BE SOME -- THERE MAY BE SOME ADJUSTMENTS THAT MIGHT BE MADE, AND REFINEMENTS. BUT, GENERALLY, I BELIEVE THOSE ARE FAIRLY ACCURATE IN TERMS OF ICS OF THE UNDERSTANDING THE VEGETATION DYNAM EVERGLADES. SO, THAT WAS IN '89. ARE YOU COLLECTING ANY DATA THAT YOU BELIEVE MIGHT ALTER THOSE OPINIONS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 70 A. I'M NOT SURE THEY WOULD ALTER THEM. THEY MAY REFINE THEM, AS I MENTIONED. WE OBVIOUSLY ARE COLLECTING DATA ON NUTRIENTS, AND SOME DATA ON HYDROPERIOD, AND WE HAD ORIGINALLY PROPOSED A FIRE SERIES OF EXPERIMENTS, WHICH HAVE NOT COME TO BEAR, ALTHOUGH WE'VE HAD SOME INDIRECT FIRE DATA, SORT OF SERENDIPITY, BY HAVING THE FACT THAT SOME OF OUR PLOTS BURNED. Q. WHAT REFINEMENTS ARE YOU LOOKING AT? A. TRYING TO BASICALLY DETERMINE -- VEGETATION DYNAMICS IS A VERY COMPLEX FIELD IN VEGETATION ECOLOGY. I'M TRYING TO FERRET OUT THE QUESTIONS RELATED TO RECOLONIZATION, THE EFFECT OF DISTURBANCE, THE INTERACTIONS OF SEVERAL TYPES OF NUTRIENTS, NITROGEN VERSUS PHOSPHORUS, AND ALSO THE ROLE OF HYDROLOGY, ALTHOUGH WE HAVE NOT ESTABLISHED ALL OF OUR EXPERIMENTS ON HYDROLOGY. Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HAVE NOT ESTABLISHED ALL OF YOUR EXPERIMENTS ON HYDROLOGY? A. WE MAY IN THE FUTURE -- THIS WAS A LONG-TERM PROJECT THAT WE STARTED, AND THERE ARE VARIOUS COMPONENTS THAT WERE MENTIONED IN THE INITIAL PROPOSAL--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 71 Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND THE INITIAL PROPOSAL STARTED WITH A STUDY OF LOOKING AT FIRE, WATER AND NUTRIENT INTERACTIONS. THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO ESTABLISH AN EXPERIMENT. ONE IS TO DO THEM SIMULTANEOUSLY, AND THE OTHER WAY IS TO DO INDIVIDUAL PIECES, AND THEN DO AN INTERACTION STUDY AT THE END WHEN YOU LEARN MORE. BECAUSE OF TIME, COST, EFFORTS, WE HAVE SET UP CERTAIN COMPONENTS, INDIVIDUAL COMPONENTS--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- BUT HAVE NOT -- WELL, FOR ONE REASON, IT IS NOT VERY EASY. ONE WOULD NEVER GO AND JUST START A FIRE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE EVERGLADES. THAT WOULD -- THAT'S GOING TO REQUIRE VARIOUS STEPS TO WORK ON THAT. AND SO WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO, AT THIS JUNCTURE, PUT TOGETHER A FIRE, NUTRIENT, WATER EXPERIMENT. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, YOU BEGAN, WHAT WA YEAR--- A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. --- SET OF STUDIES? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND YOU ARE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 72 A. WE HAD A ONE-YEAR PILOT STUDY. Q. RIGHT. AND IT WAS TO BE FIVE ADDITIONAL YEARS, OR FOUR? A. FIVE ADDITIONAL YEARS. Q. SO, IT'S A SIX-YEAR STUDY. OKAY. AND YOU ARE ENTERING YOUR FOURTH YEAR? A. GOING INTO OUR FOURTH YEAR. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE NOT BEGUN THE FIRE, OR VERY MUCH OF THE WATER PORTIONS OF THAT STUDY. IS THAT -- IS THAT ACCURATE? A. WELL, WE HAVE SOME COMPONENTS, BUT NOT -- NOT COMPLETE. Q. RIGHT. YOU'VE BEGUN YOUR NUTRIENT PORTIONS, AND YOU HAVE NUTRIENT STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN ONGOING, BUT NO -- NO FIRE, AND SOME MINIMAL WATER STUDIES? A. WELL, WE HAVE -- WE HAVE A RECOLONIZATION EXPERIMENT THAT INCLUDES HYDROLOGY, AND WE ARE COLLECTING HYDROLOGY DATA IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE OTHER STUDIES, SO WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HOPEFULLY TEASE OUT SOME OF THAT INTERACTION. AND WE DID HAVE THE TWO HYDROLOGY LAB STUDIES THAT GAVE US A FIRST -- FIRST CUT. AND, OF COURSE, I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE BROADER SCALE, OVER -- THE OVERALL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 73 HYDROLOGY OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM, BUT IN TERMS OF EXPERIMENTS, WE HAVE COMPONENTS OF -- SEVERAL COMPONENTS OF THOSE EXPERIMENTS THAT ARE HYDROLOGY. Q. THE TWO LAB ARE SUTTER AND RAIKES, RIGHT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE -- IS THERE ANYTHING -- IS THERE ANY DATA COLLECTION THAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO ALTER THE BASIC VEGETATIVE COMMUNITY DYNAMICS OPINIONS THAT YOU'VE OFFERED ON SEVERAL OPINION -- OCCASIONS, SUCH AS THE AUGUST 189 BOARD MEETING, ANY ONGOING DATA COLLECTION THAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO ALTER THOSE OPINIONS? A. WELL, AN ANALYSIS OF THAT OVERALL HYDROLOGY DATA MIGHT GIVE ME A -- AS I SAID, I THINK THERE WILL BE REFINEMENTS. I DONFT -- I -- AT THIS STAGE, I DON'T PERCEIVE CHANGING THE MODEL THAT I PRESENTED, BUT THERE MAY BE SOME REFINEMENTS RELATED TO THAT, AND THAT IS BECAUSE THE ONGOING RESEARCH MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE ME MORE INFORMATION ON NUTRIENTS, LET'S SAY, VERSUS -- VERSUS HYDROPERIOD AND SO FORTH. ANY SPECIFIC REFINEMENTS? I THINK I'M PRETTY UNCLEAR ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY REFINEMENTS. I MEAN, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 74 IS THAT JUST A LITTLE TINY WIGGLE ROOM THAT YOU WANT, OR IS THIS A BIG WIGGLE ROOM? A. WELL, I DON'T WIGGLE, I HAVE SO MUCH TO REWRITE. Q. WELL, WHAT -- WHAT IS REFINEMENT? I MEAN, I THINK I'M NOT CLEAR. I MEAN, YOU'VE EXPRESSED YOUR OPINIONS ON THIS. THEYFRE PRETTY WELL KNOWN. THEY'RE PRETTY WELL STATED. A. WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE -- AS I TOLD YOU, ONE OF OUR AREAS BURNED. WE HAVE A CONTINUING ANALYSIS OF THOSE SITES FOR VEGETATION RESPONSE. WE HAVE PLOTS WHERE WE GO AND REDO VEGETATION. WE'VE GOT TWO YEARS OF DATA. Q. FROM THE -- FROM THE FERTILIZER STUDY? A. NO, THIS IS ON THE GRADIENT STUDY. Q. OKAY. I'M SORRY, ON THE GRADIENT STUDY. A. AND WE--- Q. ALL RIGHT. A. --- AND THEY HAVE A -- THERE'S WATER INFORMATION IN THERE, AND THERE'S NUTRIENT INFORMATION IN THERE, AND THERE'S NOW ONE PIECE OF IT IS FIRE INFORMATION, AND WE HAVE NOT ANALYZED THAT DATA, SO I CAN'T AT THIS PARTICULAR STAGE SAY WHAT I WILL CONCLUDE FROM THAT, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT ALL THE DATA, BUT I -- I HAVE MADE SOME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 75 PRESENTATIONS ALREADY TO SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, SURPRISINGLY, I GUESS TO ME, OR MAYBE TO SOME PEOPLE, SAWGRASS HAS IN SOME CASES COME BACK AND REGENERATED VERY NICELY IN AREAS WITH HIGH SOIL PHOSPHORUS. IT WAS ORIGINALLY STATED THAT THIS COULD NEVER HAPPEN. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. SO THIS IS AN OBSERVATION. THIS IS MORE INFORMATION TO ME, THAT, IN FACT, TELLS ME THAT THERE ARE SOME FRUITFUL GROUNDS TO ANALYZE THAT DATA VERY CAREFULLY, WHICH WE WILL DO. Q. SO, YOU'RE DOING VEGETATIVE COUNTS ON YOUR GRADIENT STUDY? A. OH, YES. Q. IS THAT DONE ON A MONTHLY, OR BI-YEARLY--- A. NO, THAT'S DONE ON AN ANNUAL BASIS. Q. ANNUAL BASIS. OKAY, YOU COUNT VEGETATION. AND HOW OFTEN DO YOU COLLECT THE WATER SAMPLES? I KNOW SOMEONE MUST HAVE TOLD ME THAT, BUT I THOUGHT THEY HAD TOLD YOU DIDN'T HAVE WATER LEVEL DATA, SO I'M -- I'M SORT OF A LITTLE SURPRISED. HOW OFTEN ARE YOU COLLECTING WATER LEVEL DATA AT YOUR GRADIENT STUDY? A. WE COLLECTED WATER DATA FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS FROM DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 76 THOSE PARTICULAR AREAS. Q. WATER LEVEL? A. WATER LEVEL. I THINK I WENT THROUGH THAT A FEW MINUTES AGO. Q. OKAY. AND THAT WAS COLLECTED ON WHAT -- HOW OFTEN? A. APPROXIMATELY EVERY TWO MONTHS. Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND THE FIRE WAS VERY RECENT? A. WELL, ONE OF THE FIRES -- IT WAS 189, I BELIEVE, AND WE'VE BEEN -- IT WAS 189, SO WE NOW -- THAT'S ONE OF THE NICE THINGS ABOUT IT, WE HAVE A PERIOD OF TIME WHICH WE CAN FOLLOW THAT INFORMATION SINCE THE FIRE. WE HAD PREVIOUS AND THEN WE HAVE POST DATA. AND THEN WE HAVE THE FERTILIZER STUDY, WHICH IS A LONG-TERM RESPONSE STUDY TO THE EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS AND WATER. Q. YOU MEAN THE NUTRIENTS IN THE WATER? A. WELL, WE HAVE -- WELL, YES, WE'VE ADDED NUTRIENTS TO THE FERTILIZER STUDIES AT THREE LOCATIONS, BUT THE THREE LOCATIONS HAVE DIFFERENT HYDROLOGIES. Q. AND YOU'VE COLLECTED WATER LEVEL DATA AT THOSE FERTILIZER STUDIES HOW OFTEN, DR. RICHARDSON? A. ONCE A MONTH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 77 Q. FOR THOSE -- FOR THE--- A. THREE YEARS. WE CON -- THOSE ARE ONGOING AND CONTINUING STUDIES. Q. OKAY. WHO WAS IT WHO HAD INDICATED THAT SAWGRASS COULD NEVER COME BACK WHERE YOU HAD A BURN AND HIGHLY PHOSPHORUS SOIL? A. WOODY WODRASKA, AT A PUBLIC MEETING, HAD SAID THAT HE HAD, I BELIEVE, CONSULTED WITH HIS STAFF, AND IT WAS MOST UNFORTUNATE, BUT ONCE THE PHOSPHORUS LEVELS HAD REACHED A CERTAIN LEVEL, THAT THE NATIVE SAWGRASS COULD NOT RETURN. UNFORTUNATELY FOR HIM, WE WERE FOLLOWING HIS PRESENTATION WITH THAT VERY DATA THAT SHOWS THAT IT DOES RETURN, BUT HE HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT. OKAY. YOU ALSO ARE LISTED AS HAVING EXPERT OPINIONS ON PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE RATES IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AREA. DO YOU KNOW WHAT OPINIONS YOU'LL BE OFFERING ON THAT--- A. I HAVE--- Q. --- EVERGLADES PROTECTION AREA EXCUSE ME, I'm SORRY. A. YEAH, I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU WHAT -- YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS THAT I'M WORKING IN? IT SAYS EPA, BUT I--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 78 Q. RIGHT. A. --- I'M VERY CONFUSED WHEN THEY KEEP SAYING EPA SINCE--- Q. I THINK IT MEANS IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS AND THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. A. WELL, NOT IN THE PARK. Q. YOU WON'T HAVE AN OPINION ON THE PARK? A. I HAVE NOT BEEN -- GOTTEN IN THE PARK, AS YOU WELL KNOW. Q. DO YOU INTEND TO OFFER OPINIONS ON THE DATA COLLECTIONS THAT WILL TAKE PLACE IN THE PARK AND THE REFUGE? A. I MAY. IT'S NOT CLEAR AT THIS TIME WHETHER I WILL. I HAVE NOT -- YOU KNOW, I MAY VERY WELL PARTICIPATE IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DOCUMENTATION. Q. SO, YOU MIGHT OFFER OPINIONS--- A. I MIGHT. I HAVE NOT--- Q. --- ON THOSE DATA COLLECTIONS? A. --- THAT'S NOT BEEN CLEARED YET, WHETHER I WILL OR I WILL NOT. Q. DID YOU HELP DESIGN THE STUDIES TO GO INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE? A. I WAS SENT A STUDY DESIGN, AND I WAS ASKED TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 79 REVIEW THAT, AND I WAS ALSO ASKED WHAT COMPONENTS FOR THE SOIL, AND POSSIBLY SOIL PORE WATER WOULD BE ADDED IF I WERE TO DO IT--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND I DID ADD THOSE. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DID PARTICIPATE IN THE DESIGN OF THOSE? A. YES. Q. HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED TO ANALYZE ANY OF THE DATA FROM THOSE COLLECTIONS? A. I HAVE NOT. Q. SO, PRESENT YOUR ONLY ANTICIPATION IS THAT YOU WOULD BE ASKED TO REVIEW THE DATA AND OFFER AN OPINION BASED UPON THAT DATA? A. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING. I MEAN, THAT COULD CHANGE. IT MAY BE -- IT'S JUST BEEN VERY UNCLEAR. WITH ALL THIS GOING ON, WE HAVE NOT -- IT'S BEEN WAY ON THE BACK BURNER IN TERMS OF MY EFFORTS. AND IT'S -- FOR SEVERAL REASONS, ONE, BECAUSE OF OUR TREMENDOUS WORKLOAD, TOO. WE HAVE GONE YEARS ASKING FOR ENTRANCE. I DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING UNTIL SOMEONE ACTUALLY CALLS UP AND SAYS, "YES, YOU MAY ENTER." Q. WHO DEVELOPED THE STUDY DESIGN, DR. RICHARDSON? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 80 A. I'M NOT SURE. I WAS SENT THIS, I BELIEVE, BY -- RICK BURGESS, I BELIEVE, SENT THAT TO ME. AND I'M SURE A SERIES OF THEIR CONSULTANTS DID THIS. Q. WAS IT DEVELOPED OFF OF ANYTHING THAT YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY PUT TOGETHER? DID IT APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW--- A. I COULDN'T -- I CAN'T -- COULDN'T QUITE SAY. IT MAY BE, BECAUSE I'M THINKING THAT WE HAD DISCUSSED AT SOME POINT WHAT I WOULD COLLECT IF I COULD GET IN THERE. I'M SURE THAT'S BEEN MADE PRESENT AT SOME MEETINGS. AND SO I'M SURE SOME COMPONENTS WOULD BE, ALTHOUGH MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT I HAD NEVER PROPOSED VEGETATION SAMPLING. I MOSTLY WAS INTERESTED IN SOILS; SOIL PORE WATER. I -- TO MY RECOLLECTION, I DON'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER. I ASKED SEVERAL TIMES -- YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS INTERIOR OR FISH AND WILDLIFE -- TO SAMPLE. I KEPT REDUCING MY REQUESTS DOWN TO THE POINT WHERE I WAS DOWN TO ALMOST A BUCKET OF SOILS. I WAS GOING TO GO FOR AVOGADRO'S NUMBERS SOON, BUT I DIDN'T GET THAT -- I STOPPED, I FINALLY GAVE UP. Q. I DON'T THINK YOU TOLD ME WHAT YOU THOUGHT YOUR OPINIONS WOULD BE ON THE PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE RATES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 81 WITHIN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS. YOU SORT OF TOLD ME THAT YOU COULDN'T OFFER AN OPINION ON THE PARK OR THE REFUGE UNTIL YOU SAW DATA; BUT AS TO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, WHAT WOULD THAT BE? A. MY OPINION? Q. YES, SIR. A. I THINK MY OPINIONS, OF COURSE, WILL BE RELATED TO THE DYNAMICS OF PHOSPHORUS AND HOW IT'S STORED, THE MECHANISMS. I THINK I WOULD GIVE AN OVERVIEW OF THAT. AND I WOULD TALK ABOUT THE STORAGE RATE, WHICH I THINK IS ONE OF OUR -- HAS BEEN OUR CENTRAL OBJECTIVES FOR OUR STUDY FOR A LONG TIME. AND THAT RELATES TO OUR CESIUM WORK, AND OUR PEAT ACCRETION WORK, AND THE VARIOUS COMPONENTS OF THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE DYNAMICS RELATED TO THAT, AND PROBABLY OUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THAT WORKS AND THE MAGNITUDE. ANY WORK THAT'S ONGOING THAT WOULD AFFECT THAT OPINION? IF I DISCUSSED THIS WITH YOU, LET'S SAY, THIS AFTERNOON OR TOMORROW MORNING, IS THERE ONGOING DATA COLLECTIONS THAT YOU THINK WOULD REALLY ALTER THOSE OPINIONS? A. THERE IS SOME. WE ARE COLLECTING A FEW ADDITIONAL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 82 CORES AS WE SPEAK. ACTUALLY THAT'S NOT TRUE; WE CAN'T BECAUSE THE WATER LEVELS ARE TOO HIGH IN CERTAIN COMPONENTS. SO, WE HAVE A FEW CORES WE ARE CURRENTLY ANALYZING, BUT UNFORTUNATELY OUR GAMMA COUNTER IS NOT FEELING WELL. Q. ALL RIGHT. THESE CORES ARE TAKEN FROM WHERE? A. I WOULD HAVE TO ASK CHRIS SPECIFICALLY, BECAUSE HE TOOK THE CORES, BUT I THINK THEY WERE -- THERE MAY BE SOME -- WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS COME UP WITH MORE OF A REGIONAL PICTURE. I THINK THERE ARE SOME IN 3A. THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME IN 2A. AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO COLLECT A FEW ADDITIONAL SAMPLES IN 2A. Q. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A REGIONAL PICTURE, I THINK THAT CONFUSES ME A LITTLE. ARE YOU GOING TO OFFER OPINIONS AT TRIAL, DR. RICHARDSON, THAT EACH OF THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS SHOULD BE MANAGED SEPARATELY, OR THAT YOU SHOULD MANAGE THIS WHOLE REGION OF THE EVERGLADES PROTECTION AREA SORT OF AS A LARGER UNIT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION? A. I DO. I HAVE NOT DECIDED IN MY MIND WHICH WAY I WILL GO ON THAT YET. BUT THAT--- Q. REALLY? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 83 A. SERIOUSLY, THAT'S TRUE. BUT I WOULD SAY, AS I SAID EARLIER, ABOUT AN HOUR AGO, IT IS -- FROM THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE, IT WOULD APPEAR TO ME THAT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, AND THEREFORE IF I WERE TO LEAN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, I WOULD SAY THAT -- I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE MANAGED THE SAME. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. AND THEIR ALTERATIONS HAVE NOT BEEN THE SAME. Q. THAT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR OPINIONS--- A. YEAH. Q. I WAS A LITTLE SURPRISED. ARE YOU DOING SPECIFIC COLLECTIONS THAT WILL MAKE THAT OPINION DEFINITIVE IN YOUR MIND? A. YES. I JUST WANT -- I HAVE A FEW PLACES THAT I WOULD LIKE TO OBTAIN A FEW MORE PIECES OF INFORMATION. PART AND PARCEL TO THAT, OF COURSE, WOULD BE AN UNFORTUNATE -- IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED SEVERAL YEARS AGO -- I HATE TO HARP ON THIS, BUT THE LOXAHATCHEE AND THE EVERGLADES PARK ARE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THIS, AND I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MOST HELPFUL TO HAVE HAD THE WHOLE PIECE SO THAT ONE COULD ACTUALLY DO THAT. Q. THE WHOLE FRUITCAKE, AS SOMEONE SAID EARLIER? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS REFERRED TO AS A FRUITCAKE. THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 84 WHOLE ENCHILADA. Q. OKAY. WHERE ARE THESE PIECES, OTHER THAN THE AREAS THAT YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER? WHERE WERE YOU SEEKING MORE DATA THAT WILL HELP YOU MAKE THIS DECISION? A. WE MAY COLLECT A FEW MORE DOWN -- WE ARE TRYING TO OBTAIN A HANDLE ON SOME HISTORICAL INFORMATION RELATED TO ACCRETION AND STORAGE. AND I THINK EVERYONE HAS A TENDENCY TO FOCUS STRICTLY ON AREAS WHERE THERE ARE HIGHER INPUTS. AND I THINK WE WOULD LIKE -- THERE'S A PAPER, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WE HAVE -- THAT'S CURRENTLY BEING PUBLISHED IN ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS -- THAT TRIES TO GIVE MORE OF A -- MORE OF A LANDSCAPE PICTURE OF THE REGION. AND SO WE WERE TRYING TO LOOK At THAT. AND, AGAIN, THE LOXAHATCHEE AND THE EVERGLADES PARK ARE A LARGE PIECE OF -- THE UNKNOWN PIECE OF THE PUZZLE, AT THE MOMENT. WELL, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT THOSE. YOU KNOW, THAT'S--- A. THAT'S FACT. Q. ---SOMETHING YOU AND I CAN'T RESOLVE. BUT I DO WANT TO KNOW WHERE ELSE YOU ARE LOOKING FOR--- A. SURE. 3A--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 85 Q. ---RIGHT. A. --- THERE WILL BE COMPONENTS OF 3A, AND THERE WILL BE PIECES OF 2A. Q. OKAY. WHERE IN 3A, SPECIFICALLY? A. WELL, CHRIS AND I HAVEN'T TOTALLY DECIDED WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO BE, BUT I THINK THEY'LL BE IN THE CENTER PORTION. Q. RIGHT. A. AND THERE MAY BE SOME ADDITIONAL ONES ALONG THE TWELVE STRUCTURES--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- THE BACKSIDE OF THE TWELVE STRUCTURES. Q. RIGHT. AND--- A. MAYBE A COUPLE IN THE NORTHERN PORTION OF 3A, THAT WE HAVE NOT SAMPLED EXTENSIVELY. Q. OKAY. A. WE DO NOT PLAN TO DO AN EXTENSIVE GRID OVER THE ENTIRE REGION SINCE IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT DR. REDDY HAS COMPLETED ALMOST EVERYTHING FOR THOSE REGIONS, AND IT WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME TO--- Q. AND YOU COULD RELY UPON HIS DATA? A. COULD RELY ON SOME COMPONENTS OF IT. IT'S NOT REFINED ENOUGH IN SOME AREAS FOR SOME OF THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 86 THINGS WE WOULD WANT BUT--- Q. OKAY. WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD WANT, THAT HIS DATA IS NOT REFINED SUFFICIENTLY TO TELL YOU? A. HE PRIMARILY PLACES HIS PHOSPHORUS DATA IN -- BECAUSE, I THINK, OF COSTS AND TIME AND EFFORT -- IN ZERO TO TEN, TEN TO TWENTY, VERY LARGE DEPTH INCREMENTS WHEN HE DOES EXTENSIVE STUDIES. AND THIS IS USEFUL FOR SOME INFORMATION, BUT IT IS NOT USEFUL TO LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS DISTRIBUTION PATTERNS THROUGH TIME. IT COULD NOT BE UTILIZED AS WELL, ONLY IN A VERY CONSERVATIVE WAY, TO LOOK AT THE TIME INTERVALS. OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU -- IF YOU SIMPLY TAKE, INSTEAD OF ONE CENTIMETER INCREMENTS, IF YOU TAKE TEN CENTIMETERS AND COMPOSITE THE SAMPLE AND GRIND IT UP, YOU DON'T HAVE A GOOD FEELING FOR WHAT'S RIGHT AT THE SURFACE, WHAT'S TWO CENTIMETERS DOWN, AND WHAT'S SIX, AND WHAT'S NINE. AND SO ZERO TO TEN COVERS A VERY LARGE TIME PERIOD, SO THAT'S ONE COMPONENT. AND THEN THE FRACTIONATION COMPONENTS, HE DOES A DIFFERENT FRACTIONATION SCHEME FOR US. IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S WRONG, IT SIMPLY MEANS IT'S A DIFFERENT ONE. AND FOR OUR COMPARATIVE PURPOSES, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 87 WE WOULD HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO COMPARE TO OUR SYSTEM. Q. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GETTING A HANDLE ON HISTORICAL INFORMATION, ARE YOU REFERRING ALSO TO THE POLLEN WORK AND THE LEAD 210 WORK? A. THERE WILL BE SOME OF THAT, YES. Q. OKAY. HOW LONG DO YOU THINK THE POLLEN WORK WILL TAKE? A. WELL, WE WILL HAVE SOME IN SIX MONTHS, SOME A YEAR. WE ARE CURRENTLY ANALYZING THE POLLEN DATA AS WE SPEAK--- Q. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE--- A. --- WELL, THAT'S NOT TRUT; I'M NOT SURE THE STUDENT'S BACK TODAY, BUT MAYBE TOMORROW. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY PRELIMINARY CONCLUSIONS FROM THAT POLLEN WORK? A. NO. NO. THE CORES HAVE ALL BEEN PREPARED, BUT IT'S A FAIRLY -- NOT DIFFICULT, BUT LABORIOUS TECHNIQUE, AND SO YOU PREPARE BATCHES. AND SO THEY ARE SITTING IN A STAGE. Q. HOW ABOUT THE LEAD 210 WORK, IS THAT ESSENTIALLY CORROBORATING YOUR CESIUM WORK? A. YES, IT IS, ALTHOUGH IT GIVES A DIFFERENT TIME FRAME. BUT IT GIVES US A HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 88 FIFTY YEAR TIME INTERVAL, AND SO IT GIVES US A DIFFERENT PICTURE. AND WE WOULD LIKE TO DO, AND ARE PLANNING TO DO MORE LEAD 210 CORES. BUT, AGAIN, IT IS A VERY LABORIOUS PROCESS. AND SINCE THE UNITED STATES HAS SHUT DOWN MOST OF THEIR SOURCES OF POLONIUM GENERATION -- POLONIUM IS AT VERY, VERY HIGH PREMIUMS, IT COMES FROM RUSSIA. I'M SURE YOU COULD PROBABLY BUY IT IN THE BLACK MARKET SOMEWHERE, BUT THAT'S NOT SOME AVENUE THAT THE UNIVERSITY HAS PURSUED, BUT WE HAVE TO BUY IT THROUGH A BROKER, AND THE WAITING PERIOD IS QUITE EXTENSIVE, AND SO WE JUST OBTAINED OUR FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($5,000.00) OF BACKGROUND STANDARD. AND NOW WE ARE -- NOW, WE ARE ACTUALLY A BROKER OURSELVES. WE HAVE VARIOUS UNIVERSITIES BEGGING FOR A SMALL FRACTION OF OUR SUPPLY. Q. LET ME RETURN TO THE ENTRY INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE. WAS THAT RESEARCH ON BEHALF OF THE EPD OR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. I'M SORRY? Q. THE ENTRY INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE, WHEN YOU REQUESTED ENTRY INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE, WAS IT ON BEHALF OF THE EPD OR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 89 LEAGUE? A. MY ORIGINAL REQUESTS WERE FOR THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. AND I'M NOT SURE THE EPD -- I CAN'T REMEMBER, I'M NOT SURE THE EPD EXISTED AT THAT TIME. Q. SO, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ON BEHALF OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. NO, IT WAS ACTUALLY ON BEHALF OF DUKE UNIVERSITY. I MEAN, I BASICALLY--- Q. YOU WERE GOING TO FUND THAT RESEARCH SEPARATE FROM THE WORK YOU WERE DOING UNDER THE GRANT FROM THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. NO -- NO. IT WAS GOING TO BE FUNDED FROM THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE GRANT, BUT IT WAS PART OF THE WHOLE IDEA TO GET A COMPLETE PICTURE OF THE WHOLE SYSTEM. AND, SO, I BASICALLY STARTED OUT, I BELIEVE, ORIGINALLY REQUESTING PERMISSION TO ENTER THOSE AREAS -- I THINK IT WAS 189, AND THAT -- AT THAT TIME. BUT THEN WE SWITCHED OVER TO EPD, AND I BELIEVE SOME OF OUR LATER REQUESTS WERE -- AGAIN, WE DID IT THROUGH THE UNIVERSITY, YOU KNOW. WE WERE NOT PARTY TO ANY OF THE LITIGATION, WE WERE NOT PART OF THAT. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS NOT PARTY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 90 TO THE LITIGATION WHEN I DID MY INITIAL REQUEST, SO I -- YOU KNOW. AGAIN, I'M NOT NAIVE IN THIS, I UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED; BUT ESSENTIALLY WE APPLIED AS ANY OTHER UNIVERSITY WOULD APPLY. IN FACT, WE -- DR. QUALLS APPLIED TO THE PARK AS AN INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATOR JUST A FEW -- MAYBE A MONTH OR TWO AGO, FOR COLLECTING A FEW WATER SAMPLES, AND, AGAIN, WAS DENIED ON THE BASIS -- ERRONEOUSLY SO -- THAT HE WAS A WITNESS, WHICH HE, OF COURSE, WAS NOT. Q. ALL RIGHT. BUT IT WAS FUNDED -- THE WORK WAS FUNDED BY THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, YOUR ORIGINAL REQUEST, IS THAT RIGHT? A. THE RESEARCH WAS FUNDED BY THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND THEN THE OTHER AREA THAT'S LISTED IS "EVERGLADES ECOLOGY." A. A RATHER BROAD TOPIC. Q. RIGHT. I WOULD SAY SO, ALSO. SO, WHAT OPINIONS? YOU HAVE WHAT I HAVE. A. WELL, WHERE ARE WE, IS THIS STILL UNDER ARE WE STILL UNDER (b)? Q. WE'RE STILL UNDER (b), WE HAVEN'T EVEN MOVED ON TO (C). A. WELL, WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT ON (c), ACTUALLY, BUT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 91 AGAIN, I THINK WE'VE -- ACTUALLY, WE'VE COVERED A LOT OF THIS. EVERGLADES ECOLOGY WOULD REFER TO, OF COURSE--- Q. ANYTHING THAT YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY SAID, BECAUSE I REALIZE A LOT OF WHAT YOU'VE SAID COULD FALL UNDER THAT--- A. RIGHT. AND THAT'S SORT OF A--- Q. --- BROAD UMBRELLA. A. --- I THINK THAT'S SORT OF A GENERIC TERM, OR A TERM THAT WE COVERED, BUT PRIMARILY -- I'M OBVIOUSLY NOT VERSED IN ALL ASPECTS OF EVERGLADES ECOLOGY, SO I WOULD NOT BE TESTIFYING TO BIRD LIFE, FOR EXAMPLE. I WOULD NOT BE TESTIFYING TO CERTAIN ASPECTS. I WOULD BE TESTIFYING, I'M SURE -- AND I CAN GIVE IT TO YOU IN GENERIC AREAS--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- I MEAN, WATER QUALITY, AND SOIL CHEMISTRY, AND PHOSPHORUS DYNAMICS, AND VEGETATION RESPONSES. THOSE ARE THE SPECIFIC AREAS THAT I WOULD BE BIOGEOCHEMISTRY OF WETLANDS SYSTEMS. I MEAN, THE--- Q. BUT YOU -- BUT YOU WILL NOT TESTIFY AS TO THE INVERTEBRATES OR ANY OTHER TROPHIC LEVELS, IS THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 92 ACCURATE? A. I WILL -- I UTILIZE A LITTLE BIT OF THAT INFORMATION TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE ECOLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES, YES, BUT I WILL NOT BE TESTIFYING AS AN EXPERT ON INVERTEBRATES, NO. Q. ON INVERTEBRATES, YOU'RE NOT TESTIFYING ON INVERTEBRATES? A. I'M NOT TESTIFYING AS AN EXPERT ON INVERTEBRATES, THAT IS TRUE. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. A. I WILL UTILIZE THAT A LITTLE BIT OF THAT INFORMATION TO UNDERSTAND THE ECOSYSTEM COMPONENTS. AN ECOSYSTEM ECOLOGIST, TO UNDERSTAND THE ECOSYSTEM DYNAMICS, RELIES ON VARIOUS PIECES OF INFORMATION. SO, THEREFORE, YOU CAN -- TO UNDERSTAND THE FUNCTION OF THAT ECOSYSTEM, WHETHER IT'S STILL FUNCTIONING; THE STRUCTURE OF THE ECOSYSTEM, YOU CAN WITHDRAW -- RELY ON INFORMATION -- PHYSIOLOGICAL INFORMATION, COMMUNITY INFORMATION, AND IT BASICALLY, IN A HIERARCHY, IS UTILIZED. Q. YOU MEAN YOU MIGHT TAKE IT AND EXTRAPOLATE TO OTHER PARTS OR TO OTHER AREAS OF THE ECOSYSTEM, FROM WHAT YOU HAD FOUND IN, LET'S SAY, FOR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 93 INSTANCE, DR. RADER'S WORK? A. I'M NOT SURE I WOULD DO OTHER PARTS. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY OTHER PARTS. Q. ALL RIGHT. THEN WE'LL LET IT GO. MAYBE THE QUESTION WASN'T NARROW ENOUGH. ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE UNDER SECTION (b) THAT YOU PRESENTLY BELIEVE YOU WOULD HAVE OPINIONS ON, OR MIGHT HAVE -- AT ANY TIME WITH YOUR LAWYERS MIGHT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING, THAT YOU MIGHT OFFER AT TRIAL? MR. BURGESS: LET ME OBJECT TO THAT. MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME A MINUTE. MAY I JUST INTER -- IfM JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT DOCUMENT YOU'RE REFERRING TO. MS. PONZOLI: OH, THE LEAGUE'S DESCRIPTION OF THOSE GLOBAL AREAS ON WHICH DR. RICHARDSON IS GOING TO OFFER--- MR. GREEN: WHAT PAGE IS THAT ON THAT DOCUMENT? WITNESS: TEN. MS. PONZOLI: TEN. MR. GREEN: THANK YOU. MS. PONZOLI: TEN. MR. GREEN: I'M WITH YOU. GO AHEAD. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 94 MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) I THINK THAT WE'VE DONE A LOT OF (c), MAYBE WE CAN FINISH (c) AND TAKE A BREAK FOR LUNCH, DR. RICHARDSON--- A. OKAY. Q. --- WHY DON'T WE DO THAT? A. OKAY. Q. ALL RIGHT. UNDER (c), THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR EXPECTED TESTIMONY, THE FIRST SENTENCE SAYS THAT "THE PHOSPHORUS SETTLING RATE RELIED UPON BY THE DISTRICT IN DESIGNING THE STAIS IS INCORRECT." IS THAT STILL YOUR OPINION? A. WELL, LET ME PREFACE THIS BY SAYING -- AS I SAID BEFORE, AND I SAID, I BELIEVE AT THE SAGE MEETING -- I HAVE NOT SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON THE SETTLING RATE; THAT HAS NOT BEEN MY FOCUS. HOWEVER -- BECAUSE I PRIMARILY AM LOOKING AT A PHOSPHORUS BUDGET AND HOW TO CALCULATE A BUDGET. BUT LET'S SIMPLY SAY THAT MY DATA AND MY INTERPRETATION OF THE DATA DOES NOT AGREE WITH, I WOULD SAY, THE DISTRICT'S RECENT ANALYSES OF THE SETTLING COMPONENT. BUT, AS I SAID, I HAVE NOT SPENT A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME ON THE SETTLING RATE. I THINK YOU ARE PROBABLY AWARE OF WHAT I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 95 HAD DONE, OR WHAT WILL BE DISCUSSED IN TERMS OF THE SETTLING RATE. I'VE ONLY DONE A VERY CURSORY ANALYSIS AT THIS STAGE OF THE SETTLING RATE. I'M NOT EVEN SURE THAT I ACCEPT THE CONCEPT OF THE SETTLING RATE AS THE MOST APPROPRIATE WAY TO DESIGN THESE AT THIS TIME. I HAVEN'T FORMED A FINAL OPINION ON THAT. Q. ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND. THEN I GUESS WHAT -- THE QUESTION I WAS GOING TO PUT TO YOU IS, IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT STATEMENT IS ACCURATE, BUT THAT YOUR OPINION IS A PRELIMINARY OPINION--- A. YES--- Q. --- AND NOT A FINAL ONE? A. --- I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A FAIR STATEMENT. Q. ALL RIGHT. I THINK PROBABLY WHAT WE'LL NEED TO DO IS EXPLORE WHAT YOU SAID, AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE, AND HOW YOU INTERPRET YOUR DATA AND OTHER PEOPLE'S DATA A LITTLE BIT FURTHER. A. SURE. Q. OKAY. AND THEN THE NEXT STATEMENT IS "A GRADIENT OF DECREASING PHOSPHORUS STORAGE EFFICIENCY ZONES EXIST IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, RANGING FROM POINT SEVEN SEVEN GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 96 TO POINT TWO SEVEN GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR. DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT? A. IN GENERAL. I'M NOT SURE THOSE NUMBERS ARE THE EXACT NUMBERS I WOULD USE. WE HAVE -- AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MADE SOME -- AS WE'RE GETTING READY TO PUBLISH SOME OF THOSE REFINEMENTS ON THE FINAL NUMBERS, BUT, I MEAN, THEY'RE IN THE BALLPARK NUMBERS. Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE NUMBERS ARE NOW; DO YOU KNOW OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD? A. WELL, AS TO THE RANGE OF NUMBERS, THEY'RE SLIGHTLY LOWER, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBERS IN MY HEAD. BUT, I MEAN, I GUESS THE BOTTOM LINE THERE IS THE -- YOU KNOW, THE AVERAGE NUMBER HAS STILL STAYED SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF POINT FOUR TO POINT FIVE. AND MAYBE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN AVERAGE THAT. THE NUMBERS GO DOWN A LITTLE BIT DUE TO SOME FINAL CHANGES RELATED TO BULK DENSITY. AND I THINK DR. CRAFT WENT THROUGH THAT IN DETAIL WITH YOU IN TERMS OF OUR LABORATORY PROCEDURES, AND--- Q. THAT WAS THE BULK DENSITY AND THE DRY WEIGHT THAT WE WENT THROUGH WITH HIM? A. THE DRY WEIGHTS, WHICH WERE ESSENTIALLY PUT INTO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 97 BY THE -- I THINK THE TECHNICIAN OR THE STUDENT, AS WERE SIMPLY ONE POINT ZERO WAS UTILIZED INITIALLY BECAUSE WE WANTED TO OBTAIN SOME ESTIMATES. AND THEN THE DRY WEIGHTS -- CORRECTED DRY WEIGHTS WERE NOT SIMPLY AVAILABLE; THEY WERE DONE IN ANOTHER LAB BY ANOTHER PERSON; AND THEN THOSE CAME BACK IN FOR THE FINAL ANALYSIS. THEY WERE REENTERED AS THE CORRECT WEIGHTS AND THAT READJUSTED SLIGHTLY. AND THEN THE BULK DENSITIES, DR. CRAFT, I THINK, ALLUDED TO THE FACT THAT HE WENT BACK AND CORRECTED THOSE, ACTUALLY AT MY -- WHEN WE GET READY TO PUBLISH THIS, WHEN WE GO THROUGH THE DATA--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- I NOTICED THAT, IN FACT, SEVERAL OF THE POINTS ON THE "A" LINE WERE -- OUT OF ALL THE POINTS -- WERE HIGHER, WHICH LEADS ME TO SOME SUSPICION THAT THERE MUST BE SOME REASON. IS THERE ANY REASON WE CAN FIGURE OUT WHY THEY WERE HIGHER. THEY'RE NOT ASTRONOMICALLY HIGHER, BUT THEY WERE HIGHER. SO, WE WENT BACK, AND HE CAME BACK IN AND TOLD ME THAT HE THINKS HE FOUND THE REASON WHY. AND I CONCURRED WITH HIM THAT, IN FACT, WHAT HE HAD DONE WAS THE CORRECT BULK DENSITIES HAD NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 98 BEEN ENTERED FOR THAT. SO, THAT SHIFTED THOSE DOWN. Q. BUT YOUR BASIC OPINION IS THE DECREASING PHOSPHORUS STORAGE EFFICIENCY ZONES IN 2A REMAINS THE SAME, IS THAT ACCURATE? IT'S JUST THE NUMBERS WILL CHANGE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. THE AREA WILL PROBABLY CHANGE A LITTLE BIT AND THE NUMBERS GO DOWN A BIT. Q. OKAY. AND SO YOUR OPINION ON THE NEXT ONE IS JUST AFFECTED BY THE NUMBERS FROM THE FIRST, AND ON THE TWELVE THOUSAND HECTARES, IS THAT RIGHT OR NOT? WILL YOU ALTER THAT NUMBER? A. THAT NUMBER WILL PROBABLY BE ALSO ALTERED SLIGHTLY DOWNWARD. Q. THAT WILL BE ALTERED SLIGHTLY DOWNWARD. BUT YOUR ANNUAL LOADINGS, YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT NUMBER IS NOT ALTERED BECAUSE THAT'S A SEPARATE--- A. THAT NUMBER IS ALSO GOING TO BE ALTERED. Q. THAT WILL BE NUMBERED -- WHY IS THAT ALTERE-- A. THAT NUMBER IS ALTERED BECAUSE, IN LOOKING AT THE ENTIRE REGION, WE THOUGHT IT WAS MORE APPROPRIATE TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT ALL THE LOADINGS TO THAT SYSTEM. AND SO THE "El' GATE IS NOW BEING ADDED INTO THAT SITE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 99 Q. WHAT IS THE METRIC TONNAGE FROM THE "El' GATE? A. MY RECOLLECTION IS IT'S ABOUT SIX METRIC TONS PER YEAR. IT FLUCTUATES FROM YEAR TO YEAR. Q. OKAY. SO, THIS ONE'S GOING TO GO UP? A. THAT ONE'S GOING TO GO UP. Q. OKAY. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW -- AND THEN IT SAYS THAT VARIOUS OPINIONS OF YOURS CONTAINED IN YOUR REPORTS -- YOUR REPORT SUBMITTED TO THE SAGE MEETING. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT REFERS TO? A. PROBABLY REFERS TO -- I THINK I MADE A NUMBER OF STATEMENTS ON HOW CORES SHOULD BE ANALYZED; HOW BUDGETS SHOULD BE DONE AND DETERMINED; AND I THINK I MADE A NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS RELATED TO TRANSFERABILITY; QUESTIONS THAT HAD TO BE ADDRESSED; UNCERTAINTY. Q. OKAY. DO THOSE OPINIONS EXPRESSED AT THE SAGE MEETING REMAIN THE SAME AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY? A. THE GENERAL VIEW STAYS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. THE -- AGAIN, THE REFINEMENT WILL BE SUCH THAT WE WILL WANT TO, AS WE'RE PUTTING THIS TOGETHER, LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS, AS I SAID, AND CALCULATE THOSE NUMBERS AS ACCURATELY AS POSSIBLE. AND THEN, AS I SAID BEFORE, I HAVE NOT REALLY LOOKED AT THE SETTLING RATE CONCEPT IN GREAT DETAIL, SO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 100 I WILL PROBABLY SPEND SOME TIME LOOKING AT THAT IN MORE DETAIL. Q. SO, YOUR OPINIONS COULD, IN THEORY, CHANGE SIGNIFICANTLY? A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY, BUT I DON'T KNOW UNTIL I LOOK -- I CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE SETTLING RATE, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON THE SETTLING RATE. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. THE -- YEAH. MS. PONZOLI: I SUGGEST WE BREAK FOR LUNCH AND RECONVENE IN AN HOUR. (THEREUPON, A LUNCH BREAK WAS TAKEN.) EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. DR. RICHARDSON, I'D LIKE TO MOVE OVER TO THE SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA'S EXPERT WITNESS LIST, AND I GUESS WE CAN JUST SORT OF TRY TO PUT THE TWO NEXT TO EACH OTHER AND MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE NOT PLOWING THE SAME GROUND. A. IS THIS THE ONE THAT SAYS PAGE 15 ON THE BOTTOM? Q. YES, SIR. YES, SIR. A. OKAY. Q. THE FIRST AREA OF SUBJECT MATTER OF EXPECTED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 101 TESTIMONY IS PHOSPHORUS STORAGE RATE AS THEY RELATE TO STORMWATER TREATMENT AREA DESIGN ASSUMPTIONS. AND FOLLOWING IN THE VEIN OF THE MORNING, MY QUESTION WOULD BE WHAT IS YOUR PRESENT OPINION, EXPERT OPINION ON PHOSPHORUS STORAGE RATES AS THEY RELATE TO STORMWATER TREATMENT AREA DESIGN ASSUMPTIONS? A. AGAIN, AS I SAID EARLIER, THAT I'VE BEEN WORKING ON STORAGE RATES IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A AND 3A, AND I HAVE NOT SPENT A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME ON SPECIFIC STA DESIGNS, BUT THERE ARE SOME RELATIONSHIPS THERE THAT I THINK HOLD, AND WHICH I COVERED IN THE SAGE MEETING. IF YOU HAD THAT DOCUMENTATION, IT MIGHT SHORTEN SOME OF THIS, BECAUSE THERE ARE SPECIFIC THINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THAT EARLIER SAGE MEETING, THAT I COVERED. BUT, IN GENERAL, THEY WOULD -- THEY WOULD BE THOSE THAT I DISCUSSED IN THE SAGE MEETING, THE FIRST OF THEM BEING THE ACTUAL DETERMINATION OF A PHOSPHORUS BUDGET. I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR SEVERAL YEARS WITH MY STAFF TO TRY TO DETERMINE A REALISTIC PHOSPHORUS BUDGET. Q. FOR 2A? A. FOR 2A. AND WE'RE CONTINUING TO DO THAT AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 102 REFINE THAT AND SO FORTH, AND THAT INFORMATION BUDGET IS RELATED TO LOADS INTO THE SYSTEM, AND THE AMOUNT OF STORAGE INTO THE SYSTEM, AND THE AMOUNT THAT'S STORED IN THE FRACTIONATION MATERIAL, WHAT FORMS IT'S STORED IN, AND THEN WHAT LEAVES THAT SYSTEM. SO, WITH THAT NATURAL SYSTEM INFORMATION, WE ARE PULLING TOGETHER WHAT I THINK ARE SOME -- SOME UNDERSTANDING OF HOW PHOSPHORUS IS STORED, AT WHAT RATES. AND I THINK THAT INFORMATION IS IMPORTANT TO AND GERMANE TO THE QUESTION OF STA DESIGNS, WITH CERTAIN CAVEATS. Q. WHICH ARE? WHAT ARE THE CAVEATS? A. THE TRANSFERABILITY OF THAT INFORMATION, WOULD HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A HAS BEEN FAIRLY HEAVILY DISTURBED, AND, IN FACT, QUITE DRAMATICALLY DISTURBED THROUGH THE YEARS, CHANGES IN LOADINGS, CHANGES IN WATER, CHANGES IN WATER DEPTH, FLOODING TO THE AREA IN EARLY OR LATE SIXTIES, EARLY SEVENTIES, TO THE POINT IT WAS ALMOST A LAKE, THEN DRYING IT DOWN, THEN DROUGHT, THEN REAPPLYING NUTRIENTS, THE RETENTION TIME, THE WHOLE HOST OF ASPECTS TO THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 103 PARTICULAR AREA THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT CAREFULLY, IF ONE WERE TO TAKE THAT INFORMATION AND TRY TO DESIGN SOMETHING FROM IT. Q. WOULD THAT -- WOULD THAT LEAD YOU TO A SIMILAR CONCLUSION THAT YOU PRELIMINARILY ARE HOLDING THAT EACH WATER CONSERVATION AREA SHOULD BE MANAGED SEPARATELY, THAT EACH STA SHOULD BE DESIGNED SEPARATELY? A. I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE EVER SAID THAT EACH STA SHOULD BE DESIGNED SEPARATELY, TO MY KNOWLEDGE. MAYBE I HAVE, BUT--- Q. NO, NO. I'M ASKING YOU, DOES -- WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS OF 2A, AND ALL THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT, AND I WAS JUST TRYING TO--- A. RIGHT. Q. --- TRANSFER THAT INFORMATION, AND YOU WERE SAYING TRANSFERABILITY WAS AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT. SO, I WAS JUST ASKING YOU, IS THAT -- IS THAT YOUR OPINION THAT EACH STA WOULD HAVE TO -- AND OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT, BECAUSE YOU HADN'T EVEN THOUGHT OF IT, OR EVER SAID IT. A. HUH-UH (NO). Q. THAT IS NOT YOUR OPINION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 104 A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I'VE EVER SAID THAT. I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT STA DESIGN, YOU KNOW, SEPARATELY. DOES THAT -- IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION CORRECTLY. Q. SO, THAT YOU THINK YOU COULD USE THE SAME BASIC CONCEPTUAL MODEL FOR VARIOUS STAIS THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES PROTECTION AREA? A. YOU COULD. I'M NOT SURE YOU WOULD WANT TO. I HAVEN'T DECIDED IN TERMS OF THE STA DESIGN. THERE MAY BE SOME REASONS TO DESIGN STAIS DIFFERENTLY, SOME COMPONENTS OF IT, FOR EXAMPLE. THEY MAY NOT ALL BE DESIGNED TO DO THE SAME THING. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE QUESTION I HAVE IN MY MIND, THAT I HAVE REALLY GOT TO THINK THROUGH IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT ONE WANTS SIMPLY ALL STAIS TO BE UNIFORM TYPES OF STAIS, OR WHETHER THEY WOULD BE DIFFERENT ALONG THE WAY, IN TERMS OF THEY MIGHT BE SET UP TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. Q. SO, YOU HAVE -- IT SOUNDS AS THOUGH YOU HAVE NO FINAL OPINIONS ON THAT SUBJECT? A. ON THE STA'S? Q. YES. A. OH, I HAVE SOME, I'D SAY PRELIMINARY OPINIONS, AND I WOULD SAY -- AS I SAID, THEY WERE BACK IN THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 105 SAGE MEETING. IF I HAD THAT DOCUMENTATION, I THINK YOU COULD EXTRACT SOME SPECIFIC--- Q. WELL, I THINK I HAVE -- YOU MEAN YOUR OVERHEADS? A. RIGHT. Q. RIGHT. I THINK I HAVE THOSE. YOU PROVIDED THEM. A. I MEAN, I THINK I HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING FROM OUR DATA. I THINK THE PRIMARY PIECE OF INFORMATION WOULD BE THE STORAGE RATES, AND--- Q. THESE ARE THE STORAGE RATES BASED ON YOUR STUDIES OF 2A AND 3A? A. UH-HUH (YES). AND I HAVE SOME IDEA OF THE BUDGET OF -- AN INPUT-OUTPUT BUDGET FOR THAT PARTICULAR REGION, WHICH HAS BEEN USED AS A BASIS FOR MY INFORMATION ON REMOVAL PER UNIT AREA, I THINK WAS THE WAY TO PUT IT, WHAT I THINK IS A REALISTIC SCENARIO, REMOVAL PER UNIT AREA. Q. YOU SAY YOU'RE LOOKING AT REFINEMENTS TO YOUR PHOSPHORUS BUDGET OF 2A. WHAT TYPE OF REFINEMENTS ARE YOU LOOKING AT? A. I'M TRYING TO DETERMINE NOW -- WE'RE NOW COMBINING SOME OF OUR DATA TO LOOK AT THE SPECIFIC COMPONENTS OF LONG-TERM AND SHORT-TERM STORAGE. WE'RE COMBINING SOME OF THE FRACTIONATION DATA WITH THE ACTUAL TOTAL RETENTION PER UNIT AREA. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 106 WE'RE DOING THIS BY REGION. WE'RE LOOKING AT -- PROBABLY LOOKING AT SOME ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ALONG THE GRADIENT. Q. WHEN YOU SAY BY REGION, DR. RICHARDSON, I'M SORRY, I DON'T UNDERSTAND. A. CLOSE TO THE CANAL, LOOKING AT THE RATES NEAR THE CANAL, THE MIDDLE PORTION OF THE CANAL, THE LOWER END OF THE CANAL. I MEAN -- WELL, DISTANCE FROM, EXCUSE ME NOW -- IN OTHER WORDS, THE GRADIENT ITSELF, LOOKING AT CHANGES THAT TAKE PLACE IN THE FRACTIONS ALONG THE GRADIENT. Q. RIGHT. ESSENTIALLY FROM THE HIGH TO THE MEDIUM TO THE LOW? A. RIGHT. Q. ESSENTIALLY IN THOSE THREE--- A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. --- BROAD AREAS? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. IS THAT RIGHT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. ANYTHING ELSE? A. WE ARE TRYING TO DETERMINE A REALISTIC ANALYSIS, I SAID OF THOSE FRACTIONS. WEFRE TRYING TO RELATE THIS TO -- WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT PORE WATER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 107 CHEMISTRY IN MORE DETAIL. I MEAN, DR. QUALLS, DR. CRAFT AND I ARE RIGHT NOW CURRENTLY SETTING FORTH TO BASICALLY PULL TOGETHER THAT FINAL INFORMATION INTO A COMBINED ANALYSIS, SO THAT WE WILL HAVE A MUCH BETTER HANDLE ON THE MECHANISMS THAT ARE CONTROLLING THEM. WE'VE GOT THE PIECES AND NOW WE'RE GOING TO PUT THOSE TOGETHER, FOLLOWING THE CONCEPTUAL MODEL THAT I'VE ALREADY PRESENTED AT SEVERAL MEETINGS. Q. IS THAT THE TWENTY-YEAR CONCEPTUAL MODEL? I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE PAPER. THERE'S A PAPER. A. WELL, IT'S NOT THE TWENTY-YEAR CONCEPTUAL MODEL, BUT--- Q. I'M SORRY. I -- WHAT WAS THE NAME OF IT? A. WELL, IT'S -- IT'S A CONCEPTUAL MODEL FOR PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND IS THAT THE ONE THAT'S BEEN SUBMITTED TO OIKOS OR SOMETHING? A. IT WAS SUBMITTED ALONG BY THE SOUTHERN -- BY THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, ALONG WITH A WHOLE SERIES OF OTHER PAPERS, TO OIKOS. Q. OKAY. I'M THINKING OF THE RIGHT ONE. I JUST HAD THE NAME WRONG. ANYTHING ELSE ALONG THOSE LINES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 108 IN REGARD TO THAT? A. HUH-UH (NO). Q. WHEN DO YOU THINK -- WHEN DO YOU THINK THIS -- THIS -- THIS SYNTHESIS THAT DR. CRAFT, DR. QUALLS AND YOU ARE WORKING ON WILL BE DONE? A. WELL, WE SHOULD HAVE THE FINAL REFINEMENTS TO THIS. AS I SAY, WE ARE NOW IN OUR -- GOING INTO OUR FOURTH YEAR. WE HOPE -- THIS PARTICU -- THIS IS -- THIS HAS BEEN PUT ON THE FRONT BURNER, BY ME, TO GET THIS PIECE OF THE RESEARCH COMPLETED, BECAUSE I THINK IT -- YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT ENOUGH OF THE DATA NOW, SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE -- REFINING THE NUMBERS, I THINK WE'RE TALKING SIX, EIGHT MONTHS, IN THAT TIME FRAME. WE'VE -- WE'VE GOT THE FRAMEWORK DONE. WE'RE BASICALLY PUTTING TOGETHER THE REFINEMENTS ON THIS. AND WE HAVE PUBLISHED SOME PRELIMINARY ESTIMATES OF THIS, BUT I THINK WE'LL BE PIECING THIS TOGETHER. Q. WHERE ARE THE PRELIMINARY ESTIMATES PUBLISHED? I MEAN, I REALIZE YOU MAY HAVE GIVEN THEM TO US, BUT JUST SPECIFICALLY--- A. I THINK THE ANNUAL REPORTS, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE VARIOUS STAGES OF THAT. AND THE ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS PAPER HAS A COMPONENT OF THAT. WE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 109 HAVE A PAPER CURRENTLY UNDER REVISION RIGHT NOW THAT WE WILL GET BACK TO AS SOON AS THIS IS OVER, TO TRY TO PUT TOGETHER SOME BETTER ESTIMATES ON THAT. Q. ANOTHER PAPER FOR PUBLICATION? A. FOR PUBLICATION. Q. WHICH ONE IS THAT? A. I BELIEVE IT'S THE ONE THAT -- I BELIEVE YOU ALREADY HAVE IT. I BELIEVE IT'S THE ONE THAT'S CRAFT AND RICHARDSON. Q. DO YOU REMEMBER THE TITLE OF IT? A. UH--- Q. A ROUGH TITLE OF SOME KIND? A. WELL, IT'S PHOSPHORUS STORAGE ALONG THE NUTRIENT GRADIENT OR SOMETHING TO THAT--- Q. OKAY. A. YEAH. AND I THINK YOU HAVE A DRAFT OF THAT PAPER. I KNOW YOU HAVE A DRAFT OF THAT PAPER. Q. I HAVE MANY DRAFTS OF SOMETHING WITH THAT NAME. ANYTHING ELSE ALONG THESE LINES? IS THAT PRETTY MUCH IT? A. WELL, AS I SAID, I THINK THE MAIN PIECE IS THE PHOSPHORUS BUDGET. I MEAN, I'VE TAKEN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TACK ON HOW TO DO THIS, AND I TAKE AN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 110 ECOLOGICAL APPROACH TO HOW THIS IS DONE, AND I BASICALLY HAVE PUT TOGETHER THIS -- WELL, WE PUT IN TOGETHER AND REFINED THIS PHOSPHORUS BUDGET FOR THE AREA, WHICH I THINK IS A VERY REALISTIC REPRESENTATION OF HOW THE PARTICULAR AREA HAS STORED PHOSPHORUS OVER THIS TIME FRAME. SO, WE -- YOU KNOW, I THINK I'VE PRETTY MUCH COVERED THAT. Q. PHOSPHORUS BUDGET, I GUESS I THOUGHT WAS JUST -- I NEVER THOUGHT OF AS AN ECOLOGICAL -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN ECOLOGICAL APPROACH? A. WELL, ECOLOGICAL APPROACH, A FIELD STUDY, WE'RE DOING AN ECOSYSTEM ANALYSIS APPROACH AS TO THIS, IS BASICALLY LOOKING AT INPUTS AND OUTPUTS. ECOLOGISTS HAVE BEEN DOING THIS IN THE ENVIRONMENT FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. AND IT'S BASICALLY LOOKING AT MATERIALS LOADED INTO THE SYSTEM, AND STORAGE, OR LOOKING AT WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE PARTICULAR SYSTEM. Q. IS THIS REFLECTED IN THE ANNUAL REPORT IN ANY OF THE CHAPTERS? A. YES. Q. WHICH ONE? A. I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THE REPORT TO SEE WHICH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 1ll CHAPTER IT IS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I DON'T WANT TO MISLEAD YOU. MS. PONZOLI: NOPE, THE BIG ONE. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU MEAN THE '92 ANNUAL REPORT? A. 192. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. PRIMARILY, IT'S COVERED IN CHAPTER SEVEN. Q. OKAY. A. THE FINAL SYNTHESIS WILL INCLUDE INFORMATION ON CHAPTER SEVEN AND CHAPTER EIGHT--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND MAYBE A BIT OF NINE, AND SIX. Q. A LITTLE BIT OF SIX, ONLY A PORTION OF SIX, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? A. YEAH. I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH WE'RE GOING TO INCLUDE THAT, BUT WE'RE GOING TO INTEGRATE THAT, BUT ALL OF THAT IS UNDER "PART III. GENERAL OBJECTIVE TWO: LONG-TERM NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY OF WCA'S." AND THAT ALL -- AND THAT INFORMATION IS ALL SORT OF TIED TOGETHER. I MEAN, I'M NOT SAYING EVERY ASPECT WILL BE USED, BUT THAT -- IT'S ALL UNDER THAT GENERAL OBJECTIVE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 112 Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THE MAIN OPINIONS YOU'LL OFFER AT TRIAL COME FROM THE DATA THAT SUPPORTS SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT AND NINE? A. YES, I DO. Q. ANY OTHER CHAPTERS THAT YOU BELIEVE WOULD ALSO BE INCLUDED? A. I WOULD SAY THERE WOULD BE SOME CHAPTERS UNDER GENERAL OBJECTIVE ONE. WE'LL DRAW FROM SOME ASPECTS OF THAT. PRIMARILY THE FERTILIZER STUDY. THERE MAY BE SOME -- WE'RE WORKING ON THAT NOW TO COME -- WE'RE TRYING TO ANALYZE THE SECOND YEAR'S DATA ON THAT. AND, AS I SAID EARLIER, AS AN ECOSYSTEM TYPE PERSON, IN TERMS OF GENERAL RESPONSES RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES, I WOULD PROBABLY DRAW ON SMALL PIECES OF SOME OF THE OTHER COMPONENTS. THE DOSING STUDY IS PRETTY EARLY ON, SO I'M NOT SURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE ANY -- OTHER THAN BACKGROUND DATA, ANY INFO -- FINAL INFORMATION ON THAT BY THIS TIME. Q. HOW MUCH INFORMATION -- HOW MUCH DATA WOULD YOU NEED FROM THE DOSING STUDY BEFORE YOU COULD BEGIN TO DRAW SOME CONCLUSIONS? A. IT DEPENDS. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE CERTAIN PIECES OF IT COME OUT. I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 113 THE PARK RAN THEIRS FOR -- I DON'T KNOW -- A YEAR TO TWO, SO WE'D PROBABLY BE TALKING SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. WE MIGHT HAVE SOME PRELIMINARY ESTIMATES BY THE END OF THE SUMMER, BUT I DON'T -- IT'S HARD TO KNOW. WE'VE -- WE'VE HAD SOME SETBACKS ON THAT PROJECT. Q. ASSUMING NO MORE HURRICANES--- A. IT'S NOT ONLY HURRICANES, IT'S OVERCAST WEATHER, WATER LEVELS, ALL KINDS OF THINGS. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVEN DETERMINED WHAT ARE THE FINAL PARAMETERS THAT YOU'RE EXAMINING AT THE DOSING STUDY, DR. RICHARDSON? A. WE HAVE A GENERAL LISTING THAT THE GROUP HAD TALKED ABOUT. WE ARE GOING TO BE ADDING A SERIES OF BIOASSAYS. AND WE -- WE ARE LOOKING AT A NUMBER OF THINGS, YES. AND WE'VE GOT -- WE'VE GOT A -- WE HAVE A SET OF RESPONSES THAT PEOPLE ARE ASSIGNED TO. I BELIEVE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A LIST OF SOME OF THAT. IN FACT, I KNOW YOU DO. Q. FROM ONE OF THE -- FROM ONE OF THE DEPOSITIONS, OR A LIST OF THEIR--- A. NO--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I THINK IT'S IN MY FILES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 114 Q. EVEN YOUR FILES WERE SOMEWHAT EXTENSIVE. OUT OF THE SERIES OF BIOASSAYS, IS ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ONE OF THE BIOASSAYS YOU'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT? A. YES, IT WILL BE LOOKED AT. Q. WHAT ELSE WILL YOU BE LOOKING AT? A. IN THAT REGARB, OR? Q. YES, SIR. ANY -- IN THE SERIES OF BIOASSAYS. A. WE MAY BE LOOKING AT SOME -- WELL, WE'RE LOOKING AT DECOMPOSITION. WE'D BE LOOKING AT USING SOME--- Q. IS DECOMPOSITION A BIOASSAY? A. WELL, NOT -- IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU SET IT UP. BUT I WAS JUST GOING TO GIVE YOU THE WHOLE LITANY IF YOU WANT IT. Q. I'LL TAKE THE WHOLE LITANY, BUT CAN YOU GIVE ME THE LITANY OF BIOASSAYS FIRST--- A. BIOASSAYS, OKAY. Q. --- AND THEN THE -- AND THEN THE OTHER LITANY--- A. WELL, PRIMARILY--- Q. --- THE BROADER LITANY? A. --- AT THIS TIME, WE WERE LOOKING AT THE POSSIBILITY OF USING -- WE -- WE WOULD HAVE IN A SENSE SOME PERIPHYTOMETERS THAT WE MIGHT USE AS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 115 INDICATORS. WE MAY HAVE--- Q. ISN'T THAT MORE OF A PARAMETER, THOUGH? A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU SET THEM UP, I GUESS. BUT, THE PRIMARY MACROPHYTE ONE, WE MAY ACTUALLY -- WE HAVEN'T DECIDED -- WE MAY ACTUALLY PLACE SOME INDIVIDUAL PLANT POPULATIONS IN THERE WITH A KNOWN DENSITY, AND ALLOW THEM TO BASICALLY LOOK AT COMPETITION, SORT OF A PLANT MACROPHYTE RESPONSE. Q. OKAY. I GUESS WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE SORT OF HEARD FROM THE OTHER DEPOSITIONS IS THAT THE -- THE DESIGN "- THE FINAL DESIGN OF THE DOSING STUDY IS NOT COMPLETE. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I DON'T KNOW,IF THE DESIGN IS COMPLETE. WE BASICALLY HAVE -- WE WERE IN THE TESTING PHASE. WE BASICALLY HAVE SET UP OUR IDEAS TO CREATE A DOSE RESPONSE CURVE FOR PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS TO LOOK AT, AGAIN, PHOSPHORUS RETENTION, PHOSPHORUS STORAGE, PHOSPHORUS CYCLING, MACROPHYTE RESPONSE, PERIPHYTON RESPONSE, AND THEN WE MAY ADD AN ADDITIONAL SERIES OF, SAY, INDICATORS. WE MAY ADD SOME CHEMICAL INDICATORS, FOR EXAMPLE, OR INTEGRATERS TO THE SYSTEM. WE HAVEN'T REFINED ALL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 116 THOSE. SOME OF THOSE ARE BEING LOOKED AT IN THE LABORATORY RIGHT NOW, WHICH ONES WE MIGHT USE, FOR EXAMPLE. IF WE USE AN ION EXCHANGE RESIN, FOR EXAMPLE, IT MIGHT BE USED AS AN INDICATOR OF PHOSPHORUS RETENTION. WE HAVE A -- WE HAVE A SET LIST. AS I SAID, YOU HAVE THAT LIST OF MATERIALS. SO WE HAVE THE MAJOR RESPONSES. WE MAY ADD, AS YOU CAN WITH A DOSING STUDY, WE MAY ADD SPECIFIC SUBSETS TO THAT. THAT WILL ALL BE DETERMINED PROBABLY IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS TO SIX WEEKS, PROBABLY, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD. WE HAVE ALREADY GOT A YEAR AND A HALF OF BASELINE DATA. SO, WE ALREADY HAVE ALL THE THINGS THAT I'VE TOLD YOU ABOUT IN TERMS OF MACROPHYTES, PERIPHYTON AND WATER AND SOILS, SO WE HAVE SOMETHING TO COMPARE TO. Q. HOW DO YOU INTEND TO USE THE PERIPHYTOMETERS AS A BIOASSAY? A. WELL, A BIOASSAY IS JUST LOOKING AT A RE -- I MEAN, THE WAY TO LOOK AT A BIOASSAY, YOU COULD LOOK AT AND I THINK, THERE, WE REALLY NEED TO TALK TO WELL, WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO SUBCONTRACT, I THINK, SOME OF THAT THROUGH. BUT, ANYWAYS, I THINK JAN IS GOING TO LOOK AT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 117 SOME OF THAT. WE PROBABLY WILL LOOK AT CHANGES IN SAY CHLOROPHYLL RESPONSE. A BIOASSAY IS A VERY GENERAL TERM. YOU CAN USE THAT IN MANY WAYS--- Q. OKAY. A. --- SO, IT'S NOT A VERY -- AND PEOPLE USE BIOASSAY TODAY. IT'S SORT OF A HOT TOPIC. PEOPLE SAY BIOASSAY. YOU CAN -- YOU CAN PUT A PLANT OUT, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THE OLD CLASSICAL TERMINOLOGY USED TO BE A PHYTOMETER. Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, NOW, PEOPLE SAY IT'S A BIOASSAY. Q. SO, YOU'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT A BIOLOGICAL RESPONSE TO SOME--- A. A BIOLOGICAL RESPONSE, RIGHT. Q. OKAY. OKAY. YOU'RE SAYING JAN IS GOING TO DO THIS WORK, BUT JAN'S GONE BACK TO CZECHOSLOVAKIA. A. HE'LL BE BACK. Q. HE'S COMING BACK? A. HE'S COMING BACK. Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN WILL HE BE RETURNING TO DUKE? IS HE GOING TO DO PERIPHYTON WORK ALONG THE GRADIENT STUDY, AND THE DOSING STUDY? A. I'M NOT SURE HE'S GOING TO DO ANYTHING ALONG THE GRADIENT STUDY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 118 Q. ALL RIGHT. HOW ABOUT AT THE DOSING STUDY? A. HE WILL -- HE DEFINITELY WILL BE WORKING ON THE DOSING STUDY. Q. WHEN WILL HE BEGIN THAT? A. WELL, HE'S UP -- THERE'S ALREADY PART -- HE ALREADY LEFT THE MATERIALS ALL SET UP TO GO ON THAT. Q. RIGHT, RIGHT. A. SO, WE HAVE THE PROCEDURES ALL SET IN PLACE, AND--- Q. SURE. YOU'RE NOT SURE WHEN HE'LL BE RETURNING TO THE STATES? A. OH, YES. HE'S BE RETURNING -- I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DATE--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- BUT IT WILL BE, I ASSUME, EITHER LATE FEBRUARY OR EARLY MARCH. Q. OKAY. A. BUT THAT DOESN'T PRECLUDE THE COLLECTING AND THE--- Q. WILL YOU CONTINUE TO USE DR. -- IS IT STEVENSON TO DO PERIPHYTON WORK? A. DR. STEVENSON IS UNDER SUBCONTRACT TO US TO DO IDENTIFICATIONS, BIOVOLUMES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 119 Q. OKAY. SO, DR. -- SO -- SO, DR. VYMAZAL WILL NOT BE DOING THAT TYPE OF WORK FOR YOU? A. HE WILL BE DOING SOME OF THE COLLECTING. HE WILL BE DOING SOME OF THE WORK, BUT WE'VE GONE -- BECAUSE OF DR. VYMAZAL'S NECESSITY TO GO BACK TO CZECHOSLOVAKIA, WE'VE -- WE'VE HAD TO MAKE OTHER ARRANGEMENTS, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. WE MAY ADD, IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE, SOME OTHER PEOPLE TO -- TO WORK WITH US ON THE DOSING STUDY. Q. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF WHO THOSE PEOPLE WILL BE? A. NOT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, NO, BUT IF -- A LOT OF IT DEPENDS ON -- WELL, WE HAVE A MEETING, WHICH WE'RE GOING TO HAVE IN ABOUT TWO WEEKS. WE'RE GOING TO FINALIZE A WHOLE HOST OF THINGS THAT WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT, WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, WITHIN A MONTH OR SOMETHING, WE WOULD HAVE AN IDEA OF EXACTLY WHAT THE DOSING STUDY EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN WOULD INCLUDE? A. THE DESIGN IS THERE. Q. OKAY. A. I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE UNDERSTAND. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 120 Q. OKAY. A. THE DESIGN IS THERE. IT'S NOW BEING BASICALLY RECALIBRATED, AND WE -- AND IT'S -- ALL THE BASELINE STUDIES ARE DONE--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- AND SO ESSENTIALLY RIGHT NOW, BEFORE WE ACTUALLY LET'S SAY MAKE A FINAL LISTING OF WHAT WE WILL ASK WE'RE TRYING TO GET AS MUCH INFORMATION OUT OF THAT DOSING STUDY AS POSSIBLE--- Q. CERTAINLY. A. --- SO, I HAVEN'T MADE A FINAL DECISION. WE'VE GOT SOME IDEAS WE'VE KICKED AROUND AS TO WHAT WE WOULD ADD OR NOT ADD. Q. BUT YOU THINK WITHIN A MONTH YOU WOULD HAVE MADE YOUR FINAL DECISIONS? A. I THINK WITHIN -- WE HAD BETTER, OTHERWISE, WE'LL BE ADDING AND NOT ANALYZING THOSE. Q. OKAY. WHAT PERIPHYTON WORK ARE YOU GOING TO SUBCONTRACT? A. WELL, MOST OF THE IDENTIFICATIONS ARE BEING SUBCONTRACTED. JAN VYMAZAL WILL DO THE PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS THAT HE'S DONE ON SOME OF THOSE THAT HE'S FAMILIAR WITH. WE WILL DO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 121 PROBABLY -- DR. STEVENSON WILL DO MOST OF THE IDENTIFICATIONS. HE'S ALREADY PROVIDED US WITH A BACKGROUND, A VERY DETAILED BACKGROUND ANALYSIS OF WHAT WE HAD. BIOVOLUMES, I THINK WE'LL BE DOING CHLOROPHYLL A'S AND SOME OF THE NUTRIENT ANALYSIS, AND MAYBE SOME OF THE WEIGHTS AND STUFF OURSELVES. Q. YOU'LL DO THE CHLOROPHYLL A--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- AND THE NUTRIENT ANALYSIS? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. BUT THE BIOVOLUME WILL BE DONE BY DR. STEVENSON? A. AND THE IDENTIFICATIONS. Q. AND THE I.D. SUCH AS WERE DONE -- WELL, THE I.D. WAS DONE IN TREBON BEFORE? A. YES. WELL, THAT'S -- NOT FOR THE DOSING STUDY. WELL, THAT'S NOT TRUE. NO --THE DOSING STUDY, YOU'RE RIGHT -- EXCUSE ME -- SOME OF THAT WAS DONE IN TREBON. Q. DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE MACROPHYTE AND PERIPHYTON RESPONSES IN THE DOSING STUDY? A. YES, I DO. WITNESS: DO YOU WANT THIS BACK? Q. YOU SAID YOU WERE -- YOU WERE REVISING YOUR PHOSPHORUS STORAGE ALONG A NUTRIENT GRADIENT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 122 WHAT WORK DOES THAT NEED? IS THAT READY TO GO OUT FOR PUBLICATION NOW? A. NOT QUITE. WE'RE -- I'VE GOT TO -- I HAVEN'T REALLY HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THE, I THINK THE LAST DRAFT THAT -- WHICH IS THE ONE YOU HAVE. THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME CLARIFICATION OF POINTS, AND I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR CORRECTED NUMBERS ARE'IN THERE, AND--- Q. ARE THESE THE BULK DENSITY NUMBERS YOU'VE BEEN TROUBLED WITH? A. RIGHT. I WANT TO MAKE SURE -- RIGHT, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE -- WE FEEL AS GOOD AS THAT WE -- THAT WE CAN DO WITH THE DATA WE HAVE AT HAND, AND I WANT TO ALSO PROBABLY CLARIFY A LITTLE MORE. Q. WHAT IS THE CLARIFICATION THAT IS NEEDED? A. WELL, THAT, PLUS PROBABLY--- Q. YOU MEAN, THE BULK DENSITIES ARE ONE CLARIFICATION? A. RIGHT. Q. BUT YOU SAID THERE WAS OTHER CLARIFICATION THAT'S NEEDED. A. WELL, DRY WEIGHTS, THE ACTUAL NUMBERS, THE RANGES, HOW WE ACTUALLY TREAT THE DATA. I'M THINKING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 123 MAYBE WE WILL LOOK AT THE DATA IN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY. Q. HOW? A. WELL, I HAVEN'T FULLY HAVEN'T FULLY THOUGHT OF THAT, BUT I THINK WE WE MAY LOOK AT SOME -- SOME BETTER WAYS TO TRY TO ESTIMATE THE -- THE AVERAGE PER UNIT AREA. UPTAKE, WE MAY LOOK AT THE UPTAKE BY DEPTH IN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY. AND THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I MIGHT WANT TO TRY TO DO, AND I MAY ALSO TRY TO INCORPORATE MY MODEL, USING THAT AS A SORT -- FOR THE THEME OF THE PAPER AS SORT OF A WAY TO SET THE STAGE FOR THAT INFORMATION. Q. THIS IS THE MODEL YOU HAD REFERRED TO IN THE OTHER PAPER--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- CORRECT? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY, JUST SO WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER. ALL RIGHT, I GUESS I'LL GO ON TO THE NEXT AREA OF EXPECTED EXPERT TESTIMONY, ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHORUS ON THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS AND EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. I UNDERSTAND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PARK DATA, SO I DON'T EXPECT YOU TO TELL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME PAGE 124 ME YOUR OPINION NOW. BUT, WHAT ARE THE ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHORUS ON THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS? WHAT'S YOUR EXPERT OPINION, JUST BRIEFLY, ON THAT? A. I WOULD SAY THAT, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, PHOSPHORUS IS A -- APPEARS TO BE A LIMITING NUTRIENT TO THE SYSTEM, AND SO I THINK THAT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN CERTAIN AREAS IS THAT WHEN PHOSPHORUS IS ADDED, AT LEAST SOME COMPONENTS OF PHOSPHORUS IS ADDED TO THE SYSTEM, WE GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH OF THE SYSTEM. WE GET WHAT ONE MIGHT REFER TO AS A SUBSIDY TO THE SYSTEM, SINCE A LIMITING NUTRIENT BASICALLY CAN BE LOOKED AT; WHEN YOU ADD IT, YOU GET A RESPONSE TO THE SYSTEM. Q. DO WE SEE COMMUNITY CHANGES? A. YOU COULD, FOR SURE. YOU COULD SEE SOME COMMUNITY CHANGES. Q. DO YOU THINK YOU -- THE LITERATURE REFLECTS COMMUNITY CHANGES BASED ON PHOSPHORUS INPUTS TO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS? A. THE LITERATURE? WELL, THERE'S SOME ANECDOTAL INFORMATION GIVEN FOR SURE. I'M NOT SURE A CAUSE AND EFFECT RESPONSE HAS BEEN TOTALLY SHOWN. I THINK IT'S PRETTY HARD TO SEVER -- TO DECIPHER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 125 REALLY THE COMPONENT FROM -- LET'S SAY PHOSPHORUS, FROM HYDROLOGY AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT SOME OF OUR RESEARCH HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO. Q. HAVE YOU BEEN TRYING TO DO THAT FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS, DR. RICHARDSON, TO SEPARATE OUT THE CAUSE AND EFFECT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHOSPHORUS AND HYDROLOGY ON COMMUNITY SHIFTS? A. WE HAVE BEEN -- WE HAVE SORT OF OUR LONG-TERM -- THAT'S WHAT OUR FERTILIZER STUDY IS TRYING TO DO. AND, OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT OUR DOSING STUDY IS TRYING TO DO. Q. WELL, THE DOSING STUDY HAS BARELY BEGUN. HAS THE PHOSPHORUS STUDY YIELDED RESULTS IN THAT REGARD? A. IT'S YIELDED SOME. BUT THE UNFORTUNATE ASPECT TO ECOLOGICAL RESEARCH IS, AND THAT'S WHY WE HAD ESSENTIALLY A FIVE OR SIX YEAR STUDY, IS THAT THIS INFORMATION DOESN'T JUST POP OUT IN ONE YEAR. AND SO, WE HAVE -- WE'VE GOTTEN SOME RESPONSES. WE'RE NOW INTO OUR SECOND YEAR -- OR WE'RE INTO OUR THIRD YEAR IN THAT STUDY, AND THESE STUDIES ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SET UP LOGISTICALLY, SO -- AND TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF DATA TO ANALYZE. SO, I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 126 THINK WHEN WE ANALYZE THIS DATA FROM THE SECOND YEAR, WE'LL HAVE A BETTER IDEA OF AT LEAST THE PLANT RESPONSES. WE'VE ALREADY PUBLISHED SOMETHING ON PERIPHYTON RESPONSES. I THINK DR. VYMAZAL HAS DONE THAT IN OUR REPORT, AND WE HAVE A PAPER THAT WILL BE OF FORTHCOMING ON THAT. AND IN TERMS OF THE -- THERE'S SEVERAL LEVELS OF RESPONSE OF THE PLANTS IN THE COMMUNITY THAT IS THERE. WE'VE ALREA -- I THINK DR. RADER HAS ALREADY POINTED OUT THE RESPONSES OF INVERTEBRATES VERY NICELY, IN TERMS OF -- I THINK HE'S ANALYZED OVER FIFTEEN THOUSAND INVERTEBRATES AND FISH, AND SO WE HAVE A RESPONSE THERE TO NUTRIENTS. SO I THINK WE'VE GOT PUT TOGETHER -- STARTED TO PUT TOGETHER A VERY NICE PICTURE ON SOME OF THE RESPONSES. AND, AS I SAID, I -- MY ECOLOGICAL ASSESSMENT OF IT, FOLLOWING VERY CLOSELY, I THINK OF WHAT ONE WOULD TYPICALLY EXPECT FROM AN AREA THAT IS NUTRIENT LIMITED IS THAT YOU GET A RESPONSE TO THAT, AND IT CAN BE A VERY POSITIVE RESPONSE, AND THAT WOULD--- Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN, VERY POSITIVE? A. INCREASE IN GROWTH--- Q OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 127 A. --- INCREASE IN SIZE OF INDIVIDUALS. THERE COULD BE A CHANGE IN SOME OF THE COMPONENTS OF THE SYSTEM. Q. YOU MEAN COMMUNITIES? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. IS THAT A PRELIMINARY RESULT FROM THE FERTILIZER STUDY? A. WE HAVE NOT SEEN A CHANGE IN THE -- IN THE PLANT COMMUNITIES. WE HAVE SEEN A CHANGE IN THE PERIPHYTON THAT DR. VYMAZAL DISCUSSED. WE PROBABLY WILL THIS YEAR REPEAT THAT STUDY, BECAUSE IT WILL HAVE NOW HAVE A LONGER PERIOD OF ADDITIONS, AND SO THAT WE CAN SEE HOW THAT RESPONDS, BUT THE MACROPHYTES WILL CONTINUE . IT'S A LONGER TERM ANALYSIS. Q. OKAY, BECAUSE IT TAKES LONGER TO SEE MACROPHYTE CHANGES? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. SO, WHEN YOU SAY YOU'RE REPEATING THE STUDY, YOU MEAN YOU'RE JUST CONTINUING THE SAME STUDY FOR AN ADDITIONAL YEAR? A. OH, YEAH, WE'RE GOING TO KEEP THAT STUDY GOING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. I THINK THE BENEFIT OF THAT STUDY IN THE LONG TERM IS THE RESPONSES TO THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 128 CUMULATIVE INPUTS TO THAT SYSTEM, AND SO I THINK WE -- WE -- WE WILL SEE SOME OF THAT. Q. WELL, I GUESS, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO BELABOR THIS, ALTHOUGH I PROBABLY WILL IN THE NEXT SEVERAL DAYS. I DON'T MEAN TO TODAY. YOU'RE THREE AND A HALF YEARS INTO YOUR STUDY. TO WHAT EXTENT HAVE YOU SEPARATED OUT THE HYDROLOGY AND THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT AS CAUSING COMMUNITY SHIFTS? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION? A. YES. I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE THE DEFINITIVE DATA AT THE POINT RIGHT NOW TO SEPARATE THEM. I THINK IF ANYTHING WE COULD SAY AT THE MOMENT IS, I'M NOT SURE THEY CAN BE SEPARATED AT THIS STAGE. Q. DO YOU THINK THEY CAN EVER BE SEPARATED? A. I THINK IF WE DID THE RIGHT RESEARCH AND HAD THE TIME, WE COULD SEPARATE THEM. I THINK THAT'S -- THAT IS A POSSIBILITY. Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD THE RIGHT RESEARCH BE? A. I THINK YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE -- YOU HAVE TO START FROM HOW PLANTS ESTABLISH THEMSELVES IN COMMUNITIES, AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE -- AND WE STARTED TO DO THAT WITH THE RECOLONIZATION EXPERIMENT TO LOOK AT WHAT COMES INTO A PARTICULAR SITE, WHEN THE SITE -- THE NICHE IS EMPTY, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 129 THAT TAKES SEVERAL YEARS JUST TO ESTABLISH THAT, AND WE HAVE DONE SO, AND WE HAVE -- THAT STUDY IS NOW UNDERGOING. YOU NEED TO HAVE A FACTORIAL ARRANGEMENT OF TREATMENTS SUCH THAT ONE COULD LOOK AT WATER AND NUTRIENTS, NUTRIENTS SEPARATELY, WATER SEPARATELY. BECAUSE THE OBSERVATIONAL DATA THAT YOU GET QUITE OFTEN FROM MULTIVARIANT STUDIES, WHILE THEY CAN BE -- THEY CAN GIVE YOU AN INFERENCE, THEY DO NOT DEFINITIVELY SHOW CAUSE AND EFFECT, WHICH IS -- IT'S ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT TYPES OF RESEARCH TO DO, THAT BEING THE EXPERIMENTAL WORK. Q. DO YOU THINK THAT CAUSE AND EFFECT RESEARCH IS REALLY COMPLETELY NECESSARY FOR -- FOR MANAGEMENT DECISIONS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. A. DO I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY? I THINK THERE CAN BE SOME OBSERVATIONAL DATA THAT CAN BE USEFUL, BUT AS A SCIENTIST, I REALLY FEEL THAT THERE HAS BEEN FAR TOO LITTLE EXPERIMENTAL RESEARCH. I BELIEVE OUR GROUP IS DOING SOME OF THE ONLY EXPERIMENTAL RESEARCH THAT HAS BEEN DONE ON SOME ASPECTS OF THIS, AND THERE IS A TENDENCY FOR YOU -- IF YOU SIMPLY USE THESE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 130 RELATIONSHIPS THAT YOU CAN BE QUITE OFTEN FOOLED BY THE OUTCOME, WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE RELATIONSHIP ON ONE HAND MAY NOT OFTEN, IN FACT, BE THE FINAL OUTCOME. Q. WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO SUSTAIN ENORMOUS DAMAGE WAITING FOR CAUSE AND EFFECT RESEARCH TO BE CONCLUDED? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. A. I'VE GOT -- CAN YOU SAY THAT OVER? I GOT THREE PARTS TO THAT. Q. WELL, I -- THE QUESTION WAS, DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE -- THAT THERE COULD BE SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE DONE TO AN ECOSYSTEM WHILE YOU WERE WAITING FOR CAUSE AND EFFECT RESEARCH TO BE CONCLUDED? A. WHAT ECOSYSTEM WOULD YOU BE REFERRING TO? Q. I WOULD BE REFERRING TO THE EVERGLADES, SPECIFICALLY. A. I DON'T THINK SO, WITH THIS PARTICULAR CASE. THE EVERGLADES, ALTHOUGH IT'S STRESSED, THE MAJOR STRESS IS THE HYDROLOGY. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY -- AND THAT'S GOING TO TAKE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ATTACK, I THINK, TO SOLVE SOME OF THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 131 PROBLEM. IF YOU'RE REFERRING TO MAGNITUDE OF THE PHOSPHORUS EFFECTS, I THINK THEY'RE VERY MINIMAL, BY COMPARISON, PROBABLY LESS THAN TWO PERCENT OF THE WHOLE AREA. Q. IS THAT BASED ON DR. RADER'S FIGURES THAT ARE REFLECTED IN YOUR AND RADER'S PUBLICATION, THAT I FORGET THE NAME OF -- I'M SORRY, I APOLOGIZE -- ON -- IT'S AN ARTICLE, A REVIEW. DO YOU KNOW THE ONE I'M REFERRING TO? A. I'D HAVE TO SEE IT, AND IT WON'T BE IN THE 189--- Q. NO, IT WON'T. A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE SPECIFIC REFERENCE TO TWO PERCENT IN HIS ARTICLE. IT COULD VERY WELL BE IN THERE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. Q. HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH TWO PERCENT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. WELL, I'VE LOOKED AT THE SORT OF A FIRST APPROXIMATION OF THE AREA, FROM FLYING OVER THE AREAS, AND THEN LOOKING AT THE PARTICULAR AREAS OF SORT OF THE NATIVE VEGETATION VERSUS THE AREAS THAT HAVE, LET'S SAY, MONOCULTURES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND COME UP WITH A SORT OF A ROUGH ESTIMATE, MAYBE, WE'RE TALKING -- I DON'T KNOW -- FORTY, FIFTY THOUSAND ACRES. AND IF YOU DO THAT OVER THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 132 TOTAL AREA OF THE WHOLE AREA, I THINK IT'S OVER TWO MILLION ACRES, IT'S -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO QUIBBLE OVER PERCENTAGES. BUT, YOU KNOW, IT MIGHT BE ONE AND A HALF, IT MIGHT BE THREE AND HALF, BUT I THINK TWO PERCENT IS A REASONABLE NUMBER. Q. SO, THIS IS ESSENTIALLY DONE, ALMOST EYEBALLING FROM A HELICOPTER? A. NO, NO. I WOULDN'T SAY -- WELL, THE FIELD OBSERVATIONS, YES. BUT WE -- WE HAVE -- FOR EXAMPLE, IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, WE HAVE TRANSECTS; WE'VE MAPPED THAT PRETTY CAREFULLY, AND LOOKED AT THAT. AND THEN -- SO WE HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA ON THAT. AND THEN I HAVE LOOKED AT SOME DISTRICT INFORMATION, SOME MAPS. I THINK THERE'S TWO OR THREE MAPS THAT ARE IN THE REPORTS THAT TALK ABOUT THE AREAS THAT ARE AFFECTED. IFVE LOOKED AT SOME REMOTE SENSING, SOME AND SOME DATA FROM THAT. Q. WHOSE DATA FROM REMOTE SENSING HAVE YOU LOOKED AT? A. SOME OF IT'S GOVERNMENT. MOST ALL OF IT'S LAND SAT DATA. Q. WHO DID THE INTERPRETATION? A. SOME OF THAT INTERPRETATION WAS DONE BY ERIM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 133 Q. I'M SORRY, I DON'T KNOW THE NAME. A. E-R-I-M. Q. AND WHO IS THAT? I'M JUST NOT FAMILIAR. IT'S NOT A--- A. HUM, YOU WOULD ASK ME FOR THAT. THE ACRO--- Q. IT'S NOT AN ACRONYM THAT'S--- A. --- THE ACRONYM IS -- WHAT? BOB PROBABLY KNOWS BETTER THAN I. EARTH -- IS IT ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE OF MICHIGAN, WHICH I BELIEVE IS NO LONGER ATTACHED TO MICHIGAN, BUT--- Q. AND THEY TELL YOU HOW MUCH IS A MIXED CATTAIL-SAWGRASS, OR WHATEVER? THEY INTERPRET THE SATELLITE IMAGE FOR YOU? A. THEY -- THEY--- MR. BURGESS: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. I THINK THAT, AS REFLECTED ON OUR PRIVILEGE LIST, WITH RESPECT TO ERIM, SLIDES AND OR CORRESPONDENCE, WE ARE MAINTAINING A WORK ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT PRIVILEGE, WITH RESPECT TO BOTH THE SLIDES AND ANY CORRESPONDENCE THAT WERE IN DR. RICHARDSON'S FILES, BECAUSE, AT THE MOMENT, WE DO NOT ANTICIPATE ASKING DR. RICHARDSON FOR OPINIONS WHICH WOULD BE BASED UPON HIS REVIEW OF ANY WORK OF ERIM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 134 SO, ALTHOUGH HE CAN DISCUSS ERIM TO THE EXTENT THAT IT APPEARS IN ANY OF THE PAPERS FROM THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, THAT WERE PRODUCED IN RESPONSE TO THE SUBPOENA, WITH RESPECT TO ANY INTERPRETATION OF ERIM RESULTS, TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT WAS WORK REQUESTED BY MY FIRM, OF THAT FIRM, I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK HE HAS TO ANSWER EACH AND EVERY TIME, AND YOU HAVE TO INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER THE SPECIFIC QUESTION BEFOREHAND, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK DR. RICHARDSON IS ALLOWED TO MAKE THOSE TYPES OF ATTORNEY DECISIONS AS HE WANDERS THROUGH ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS. MR. BURGESS: I'M NOT ASKING HIM TO MAKE ATTORNEY DECISIONS. I AM JUST GIVING HIM THE PREDICATE, OR GIVING YOU AND THE RECORD THE PREDICATE FOR MY OBJECTION. MS. PONZOLI: THAT MAY COME IN THE FUTURE. MR. BURGESS: SO, MY INSTRUCTION NOT TO ANSWER YOUR PENDING QUESTION WITH RESPECT TO--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 135 MS. PONZOLI: WHO DID THE INTERPRETATION? MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT. MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER MY QUESTION AS TO WHO DID THE INTERPRETATION FOR THE ERIM -- ERIM SATELLITE--- MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT. MS. PONZOLI: --- IMAGERY? I'D LIKE TO CERTIFY THE QUESTION. YOU HAVE TO MAKE A NOTATION OF WHERE THAT IS, BECAUSE I MAY MOVE TO COMPEL AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S DONE IN NORTH CAROLINA. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WHEN DID YOU FIRST WORK WITH ERIM, DR. RICHARDSON? A. COULD I HAVE A CLARIFICATION HERE, SINCE I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH -- OBVIOUSLY, THE TWO ATTORNEYS ARE BATTING BACK AND FORTH ON THIS--- Q. YOU CONTINUE TO ANSWER UNTIL HE TELLS YOU NOT TO ANSWER. A. OH, OKAY. Q. I CANNOT MAKE YOU ANSWER IF HE TELLS YOU NOT TO ANSWER. A. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 136 Q. I CAN FIGHT WITH HIM, BUT I CAN'T FIGHT WITH YOU ABOUT IT. A. OKAY, OKAY. I JUST WANT TO MAKE--- Q. AND THEN I CAN FIGHT WITH THE JUDGE OVER WHETHER IT WAS A PROPER INSTRUCTION. A. I DON'T UNDERSTAND ALL OF THE -- WHO -- WHO IS ALLOWED TO--- Q. RIGHT. BUT YOU ARE NOT -- I WANT IT TO BE VERY CLEAR, YOU ARE NOT TO MAKE PERSONAL DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT TO ANSWER AND NOT TO ANSWER. UNTIL YOUR ATTORNEYS INSTRUCT YOU NOT TO ANSWER, YOU ARE, UNDER OUR PROCEDURE, COMPELLED TO CONTINUE ANSWERING. A. OKAY. PLEASE RE -- PLEASE ASK ME THE QUESTION AGAIN. Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU FIRST WORK WITH ERIM? A. I FIRST WORKED WITH ERIM IN 1972-73. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. I WAS A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. AND ERIM, AT THAT TIME, WAS CONNECTED WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, AND WE HAD A REMOTE SENSING PROGRAM IN THE SCHOOL OF NATURAL RESOURCES, AND SO I SAT ON COMMITTEES, WORKED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 137 WITH STUDENTS, AND WORKED WITH STAFF AT ERIM ON GENERAL PROJECTS. I DON'T REMEMBER THE SPECIFICS AT THE MOMENT, BUT THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THOSE, SO THAT I WAS INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH THE ORGANIZATION AND THE TYPES OF WORK THAT THEY HAVE DONE. Q. HAVE YOU -- HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY TRAINING IN REMOTE SENSING INTERPRETATION? A. ON-THE-JOB TRAINING, ESSENTIALLY. I HAVE WORKED IN THE FIELD WITH REMOTE SENSORS, AND PHOTO INTERPRETATION. WHEN I TOOK GEOLOGY AND GEOGRAPHY YEARS AGO, WE DID PHOTO INTERPRETATION, AND SO I HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE BASIC PRINCIPLES, AND I HAVE SAT IN ON DOZENS OF LECTURES ON REMOTE SENSING, AND--- Q. WHEN YOU SAY PHOTO INTERPRETATION, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REMOTE SENSING, OR JUST THE WHOLE FIELD OF PHOTO INTERPRETATION? A. PHOTO INTERPRETATION, LOW ELEVATION--- Q. OKAY. A. --- PHOTOGRAPHIC ANALYSIS. I HAVE DONE WORK WITH PHOTO INTERPRETATION, STEREOGRAPHIC PAIRS, AND LOOKED AT THAT. ECOLOGISTS QUITE OFTEN USE, AND IT'S VERY VALUABLE, MAPS, AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 138 GET A FIRST LOOK. Q. LET ME ASK YOU, HAVE YOU EVER DONE INTERPRETATION OR READING OR WORKING WITH PHOTO INTERPRETATION OF THE EVERGLADES, PRIOR TO THIS ERIM SATELLITE IMAGE THAT YOU WERE -- YOU WERE INSTRUCTED NOT TO TELL ME WHO DID THE INTERPRETATION? A. HAVE I EVER WORKED IN ANY INTERPRETATION? Q. NO. PHOTO INTERPRETATION OF THE EVERGLADES, EITHER LOW ELEVATION, ALL THE WAY UP TO SATELLITE IMAGES? A. NOT THE EVERGLADES, PER SE. I HAVE DONE WETLANDS IN FLORIDA. Q. WHERE? A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU EARLIER, I DID EXTENSIVE WORK ON THE PEACE RIVER, AND SO AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY WAS A CRITICAL PART OF THAT. Q. OKAY. AND THIS WORK, THIS INTERPRETATION THAT YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TELL ME WHO DID IT, THIS WAS DONE AS PART OF YOUR CONSULTING WORK WITH PEOPLE'S, EARL AND BLANK? A. THIS PARTICULAR WORK? Q. YES, THIS PARTICULAR ERIM SATELLITE IMAGE OF THE EVERGLADES WAS CONNECTED WITH YOUR CONSULTING WORK WITH -- ON BEHALF OF PEOPLES, EARL AND BLANK? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 139 A. ONLY TO THE -- ONLY TO THE PART THAT I WAS ASKED TO -- TO LOOK AT THIS ANALYSIS. IN TERMS OF MY RESEARCH, I HAVE TRIED TO UTILIZE ANY DATA SOURCE THAT I COULD OBTAIN, ANY MAPS, ANY PHOTOGRAPHS, ANY MATERIALS, ANY SOURCE THAT I COULD FIND, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS UNDER -- ALL OF THESE VARIOUS ASPECTS WERE UNDER VARIOUS LEGAL BLANKETS AND SO FORTH; I HAVE TRIED TO FIND ANYTHING, SCS PHOTOGRAPHS, MATERIAL. AND, SO, THIS WAS JUST ANOTHER PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT I COULD UTILIZE TO TRY TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON THE EVERGLADES. Q. OKAY. IT SOUNDS AS THOUGH ALL YOUR WORK ON THE EVERGLADES HAS BEEN BLENDING AND WORKING TOGETHER. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. NO. MY RESEARCH, THE EXPERIMENTAL RESEARCH, WHAT I DO AS AN EXPERIMENTALIST, IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE OTHER WORK. SO--- Q. AND HOW DO YOU KEEP IT SEPARATE? JUST EXPLAIN THAT TO ME, BRIEFLY. A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T DO ANY EXPERIMENTAL RESEARCH FOR ANYONE ELSE, OTHER THAN WHAT'S DOING FOR THE EPD, IN TERMS OF THE EVERGLADES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 140 SECONDLY, MY STAFF HAS VERY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS TO DO THAT. THIRDLY--- Q. HOW DO YOU KEEP IT SEPARATE? THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO DO. A. WELL, WE DON'T DO -- WE DON'T DO FIELD RESEARCH--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- WE MAY LOOK AT THE DATA. WE MAY LOOK AT REPORTS. WE MAY LOOK AT DOCUMENTS AND SO FORTH, OKAY? Q. RIGHT. A. BUT IN TERMS OF ANY -- WE DO NOT RUN ANY EXPERIMENTS OTHER THAN THE EXPERIMENTS WE SET UP ON THAT. WE'RE NOT DOING ANY ANALYSES. WE ARE NOT -- THAT MEANS LABORATORY FIELD ANALYSES. WE HAVE BEEN FOR THREE PLUS YEARS WORKING EXCLUSIVELY ON EVERGLADES RESEARCH, PRIMARILY UNDER GRANT TO -- TO LOOK AT VARIOUS OBJECTIVES, ONE, TWO AND THREE, THAT I MENTIONED TO YOU EARLIER. Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY PHOTO INTERPRETATION WORK ON BEHALF OF THE COOPERATIVE? A. NO. Q. OKAY. IS THIS -- THIS WORK IN THE EVERGLADES, IS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 141 THIS THE ONLY FIELD RESEARCH THAT -- THAT YOU HAVE DONE, PERSONALLY? A. IN THE EVERGLADES? YOU MEAN OF ALL THE RESEARCH I'VE DONE THROUGH THE YEARS? Q. NO, IN THE EVERGLADES. IS THAT THE ONLY FIELD RESEARCH YOU'VE DONE IN THE EVERGLADES? HAVE YOU EVER DONE FIELD RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES PRIOR TO THE WORK YOU'VE DONE ON BEHALF OF THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, AND THE EPD? A. I -- AS A GRAD STUDENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, I CAN'T REMEMBER. I THINK WE TOOK -- DID SOME INITIAL FIELD STUDIES IN THE EVERGLADES, BACK IN THE 60/S. THAT WAS MY FIRST FAMILIARITY WITH--- Q. WHAT -- WHAT PART OF THIS -- WHAT PART OF THE EVERGLADES? A. I BELIEVE OUR TRIPS WERE TO THE PARK, AND SOME CENTRAL PORTIONS WHERE WE LOOKED AT VEGETATION PATTERNS WITH DR. JOHN HENRY DAVIS. HE WAS MY MAJOR PROFESSOR AT FLORIDA. Q. AND THAT ENCOMPASSED ABOUT HOW MUCH FIELDWORK IN TERMS OF--- A. A FEW WEEKS. Q. A FEW WEEKS, OKAY. ANY RESULTS OR CONCLUSIONS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 142 FROM THAT FIELDWORK? A. JUST THAT AT THE TIME WE WERE THERE, THE MOSQUITOS WERE AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. Q. THEY ALWAYS SEEM THAT WAY. ARE YOU DOING OTHER FIELD RESEARCH, OTHER THAN YOUR PRESENT FIELD RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES, ARE YOU PRESENTLY DOING THAT? IN OTHER PLACES, IN NORTH CAROLINA, AND WHEREVER? A. NOW, YOU'VE GOT--- Q. THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER--- A. YES. Q. --- IS NOT ONLY AN EVERGLADES WETLAND CENTER, IS IT? A. THAT IS CORRECT. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DOING FIELD RESEARCH ELSEWHERE? A. YES, WE ARE. Q. WHERE? A. WE HAVE PROJECTS IN TENNESSEE AND ALABAMA, AND A PIECE OF GEORGIA FOR TVA, LOOKING AT THE EFFECTS OF ACID MINE DRAINAGE ON IRON AND MANGANESE REMOVAL. WE HAVE PROJECTS ON THE NORTH CAROLINA COAST. WE HAVE A -- THE WETLAND CENTER HAS A LABORATORY ON THE COAST, AND FIFTEEN HUNDRED ACRES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 143 OF COASTAL MARSH. AND WE HAVE A TEAM OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ANALYZING HYDROLOGY, SOILS, VEGETATION, BIRDS, AND A WHOLE HOST OF OTHER ASPECTS ON NUTRIENT SALINI -- SALIN -- SALINITY GRADIENT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. WE HAVE HAD SOME NSF STUDIES TO LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS CYCLING, AND CARBON CYCLING, AND POCOSINS OF NORTH CAROLINA. WE HAVE--- Q. THESE ARE FIELD -- FIELD RESEARCH? A. THESE ARE ALL FIELD STUDIES. Q. OKAY. OKAY. A. WE HAVE WORKED FOR THE STATE, HAD A PROJECT WITH THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, LOOKING AT WASTEWATER ADDITIONS TO WETLANDS IN NORTH CAROLINA, LOOKING PRIMARILY AT PHOSPHORUS AND NITROGEN RETENTION. PEOPLE ON MY STAFF -- NOW, I AM NOT DOING PERSONALLY EVERY ASPECT OF THESE PROJECTS. YOU REALIZE THERE ARE ABOUT TWENTY PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THE WETLAND CENTER, ACTUALLY MORE THAN THAT, AND THERE ARE VARIOUS FACULTY MEMBERS WHO DO VARIOUS THINGS IN THE CENTER. SO, I MEAN, THERE IS A HUGE -- ACTUALLY, THERE'S A HUGE LIST OF THINGS THAT -- A NUMBER OF THE PROJECTS ARE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 144 ACTUALLY LISTED IN ONE OF OUR BROCHURES THAT I BELIEVE YOU HAVE. SO, WE HAVE -- WE HAVE PROJECTS IN WHICH WE HAD WORKED ON IN THE LAST YEAR OR SO IN OREGON, ON KALMATH FALLS, OREGON, LOOKING -- FOR THE BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS -- ON MARSH, HISTORICAL MARSH PROBLEMS, USING CESIUM TYPE WORK. WE HAD A PROJECT WE'VE JUST COMPLETED WITH SAVANNAH RIVER ECOLOGY LAB, LOOKING AT HEAVY METALS, AND PROBLEMS RELATED TO SWAMPS IN SOUTH CAROLINA. Q. WHICH HEAVY METALS WERE YOU LOOKING AT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. HUM, THE LIST IS VERY LONG. I WOULD HAVE TO THINK ABOUT--- Q. WAS MERCURY ONE OF THEM? A. MERCURY WAS ONE OF THEM. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCLUSIONS FROM THAT WORK? A. NO, BECAUSE THAT STUDY WAS REALLY A COMPILATION ANALYSIS OF -- OF WHERE THE PROBLEMS WERE, AND A LOT OF THE INFORMATION WE HAD WAS -- HOW SHOULD WE PUT IT -- RESTRICTED. WE WEREN'T GIVEN FULL ACCESS TO ALL THE DATA, BECAUSE IT'S A DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY FACILITY, AND IF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO ALL OF THE OUTPUTS, YOU MAY KNOW WHAT THE -- YOU MAY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 145 KNOW -- PEOPLE COULD -- I'VE BEEN TOLD, VARIOUS PEOPLE COULD FIGURE OUT FROM THE OUTPUTS WHAT WENT IN. THEREFORE, ONE COULD DETERMINE WHAT PRODUCTS THEY WERE MAKING, SO WE WERE NOT GIVEN ALL OF THAT INFORMATION. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. I THINK YOUFVE DONE SOME FIELD STUDIES. MS. PONZOLI: LET ME ASK YOU, MR. BURGESS. HAVE YOU ABSOLUTELY MADE THE DECISION THAT YOU WILL NOT BE USING HIM IN THIS REGARD, OR YOU HAVE NOT MADE YOUR DECISION, AND UNTIL YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION, YOU ARE NOT MAKING IT AVAILABLE? MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT, THE LATTER. MS. PONZOLI: AND WHEN DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT I WOULD KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS? MR. BURGESS: THERE ARE NUMEROUS PEOPLE THAT NEED TO BE CONSULTED. I WOULD SAY WITHIN THE NEXT FOUR TO SIX WEEKS. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WE STARTED DOWN THIS ROAD, DR. RICHARDSON, WHEN I WAS ASKING YOUR EXPERT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 146 OPINIONS ON ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHORUS ON WATER CONSERVATION AREAS. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT COMES TO MIND IN THAT REGARD, THAT YOU HAVE AN EXPERT OPINION, PRESENTLY? A. HUH, THAT'S SO LONG AGO, I FORGET ALMOST. Q. ME TOO. I'M -- WEFLL HAVE TO REVISIT IT IN ANY REGARD, BUT I MEAN IF YOU CAN THINK OF ANOTHER LARGE AREA, I'D LIKE TO KNOW IT. A. I THINK WEFVE COVERED MOST OF THAT, BUT I -- SINCE YOU'RE GOING TO COME BACK TO IT, LET'S--- Q. LET'S GO ON. I THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA. ALL RIGHT. THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR FACTS AND OPINIONS LISTED BY THE COOPERATIVE, SOME OF IT LOOKS VERY SIMILAR TO THE LEAGUE. "THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE RATE RELIED UPON BY THE DISTRICT IN DESIGNING THE PROPOSED STA'S IS OVERESTIMATED." DO YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THAT, THAN WHAT YOU SAID UNDER SUBSTANTIVE EXPECTED TESTIMONY FOR THE LEAGUE? A. NO. MR. REID: I WAS GOING TO SAY LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD FOR MINUTE. MR. PONZOLI: OKAY. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 147 WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MS. PONZOLI: LET'S GO BACK ON THE RECORD. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) "ACCORDINGLY, THE STA LAND AREA PROPOSED TO ACHIEVE THE PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION LIMITS SET FORTH IN THE SWIM PLAN IS UNDERESTIMATED." AND YOUR PRESENT OPINION REGARDING THE ESTIMATED SIZE IS WHAT, DR. RICHARDSON? A. MY OPINION AS TO THE ESTIMATED SIZE? Q. THAT WOULD BE NEEDED TO ACCOMPLISH THE GOALS OF THE SWIM PLAN IS WHAT -- WHAT -- WHAT IS THE ACREAGE THAT YOU WOULD PLACE, AS YOU SIT ON IT HERE -- AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY? A. THE ACREAGE FIGURE, AS I HAVE MENTIONED IN THE SAGE MEETING IS--- Q. RIGHT, RIGHT. A. --- AND IT HAS BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE, THAT THIS ACREAGE NUMBER SEEMS TO BE CHANGING DAILY ON BOTH SIDES, WHICH IS NOT REALLY--- Q. OURS STAYS THE SAME. A. NO, YOUR ACREAGE HAS CHANGED DRAMATICALLY. IT HAS GONE FROM THREE THOUSAND TO EIGHTEEN THOUSAND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 148 TO -- IT WAS FOURTEEN THOUSAND, THEN EIGHTEEN THOUSAND, THEN THIRTY-TWO THOUSAND, SO THERE HAS BEEN--- Q. IT SHOULD STOP THEN, WE'RE GOING UP. A. I THINK YOUFRE GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION--- MR. BURGESS: WEFLL GIVE YOU THIS. IT'S BEEN CONSISTENTLY WRONG. A. ---BUT THE POINT IS, I DON'T BASE THE -- IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE ACREAGE, ACCORDING TO THE WAY I DO THE BUDGETS, THE ACREAGE REALLY DEPENDS UPON THE LOADING. AND, SO, IF YOU TELL ME YOU HAVE A HUNDRED METRIC TONS, I THINK I GAVE AN ESTIMATE OF WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO REMOVE A HUNDRED METRIC TONS ON A LONG-TERM PERMANENT BASIS, IF THE WATER CONSERVATION AREA DATA IS DIRECTLY TRANSFERABLE, WHICH I AM NOT SURE IT IS. Q. YOU MEAN THE 2A DATA? A. THE 2A DATA. THEN, I GAVE YOU AN ESTIMATE OF WHAT I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE. IT IS AN ESTIMATE THAT I THINK IS A REALISTIC AND CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE, BUT ONE THAT WILL ACHIEVE THE REMOVAL FOR -- BASED UPON MY DATA. NOW, SO, THE ACTUAL ACREAGE IS DEPENDENT UPON THE TONNAGE. THE WAY IN WHICH YOU ESTIMATE THAT, IS TO LOOK AT WHAT THE -- SORT OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 149 THE WEIGHTED AVERAGE REMOVAL RATE IS. I DON'T THINK IT'S CHANGED FROM MY POSITION IN A LONG, LONG TIME. I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE PAPERS WE HAVE, IT'S STAYED PRETTY MUCH WITHIN THE SAME BALLPARK. IT'S -- IT'S ALWAYS RUN ON AN AVERAGE BASIS, SOMEWHERE AROUND .4 TO .46 AND .44. AND IT DEPENDS ON THE NUMBER OF CORES. THE MAXIMUM RATE HAS GONE UP A LITTLE BIT. IT'S COME DOWN A LITTLE BIT, BUT -- DUE TO THE RECENT ADJUSTMENTS -- BUT THAT IS THE WAY IN WHICH I HAVE MADE MY ESTIMATES IN TERMS OF A BUDGET. Q. SO, IN OTHER WORDS, YOU MADE ESTIMATES ALONG THESE LINES, MAYBE NOT AS EARLY 188, BUT CERTAINLY AS EARLY AS '89, DID YOU NOT? A. I BELIEVE IN 189, WE -- IN OUR FIRST ANALYSIS, WE HAD A FEW CORES, AND IT GAVE US SOME PRELIMINARY NUMBERS, AND THAT GAVE ME THE FIRST CUT AS TO COME UP WITH WHAT IS THE REMOVAL RATE PER UNIT AREA. Q. AND THAT WAS .46, SOMETHING IN THAT RANGE? A. NO, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THE EXACT NUMBER IS, BUT IT'S .4 SOMETHING. Q. ALL RIGHT. AND IT HAS REALLY NOT CHANGED IN THE THREE AND A HALF YEARS YOU'VE BEEN DOING--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 150 A. THE REFINEMENTS HAVE BEEN AS TO HOW TO LOOK AT THE TOTAL AREA FROM HIGH CONCENTRATION AREAS, TO LOW CONCENTRATION AREAS, AND WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE HETEROGENEITY OF CORES, AND THE UNCERTAINTY AROUND THAT REMOVAL, AND TRY TO ESTIMATE A BUDGET. AT THAT TIME, WE ONLY HAD A VERY PRELIMINARY BUDGET. Q. BUT MY QUESTION WAS, IT HAS REALLY NOT CHANGED? ISN'T THAT TRUE? A. WELL, THE -- THE--- Q. THE EXPLANATION HAS BEEN REFINED, BUT THE ANSWER HAS REMAINED THE SAME? A. WELL, FROM THE -- THE FIRST FEW CORES ARE REASONABLY CLOSE TO WHAT I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE. THE PEAT ACCRETION -- LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY -- THE PEAT ACCRETION NUMBERS AND THE PHOSPHORUS ACCRETION NUMBERS, WHICH I THINK -- IT MAY BE GENERALIZING HERE TOO MUCH -- BY AND LARGE, MOST SCIENTISTS ARE AT LEAST NOW AGREEING -- I THINK I EVEN HEARD THAT IN THE SAGE MEETING -- ARE PRETTY REASONABLE NUMBERS. IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT ANYONE HAS -- THE ONLY TWO SETS OF NUMBERS, THAT I KNOW OF, ARE MINE, WHICH ARE FAR MORE EXTENSIVE, AND THERE ARE DR. REDDY'S. AND THE ONLY DISAGREEMENT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 151 THERE IS DR. REDDY SEEMS TO HAVE ONE OR MAYBE TWO DATA POINTS THAT ARE EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH, COMPARED TO WHAT WE HAVE FOUND. BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE NUMBERS IN MOST OF THE PLACES ARE REASONABLY CLOSE, AND THEY HAVEN'T CHANGED DRAMATICALLY. Q. BUT THE ANSWER IS YES, THAT YOUR REMOVAL NUMBER HAS REMAINED PRETTY MUCH CONSISTENT FROM THE TIME THAT YOU FIRST--- A. I THINK IT MAY HAVE GONE UP A LITTLE BIT, BUT -- BUT NOT CHANGED DRAMATICALLY. Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND THE OTHER NUMBERS THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO, THE PEAT ACCRETION AND THE PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION NUMBERS, THE DISAGREEMENT CENTERS AROUND THE INTERPRETATION OF THOSE NUMBERS, DOES IT NOT? A. INTERPRETATION OF THE ACCRETION RATE NUMBERS? Q. NO, NO, NO, NO. I MEAN, HOW YOU -- HOW YOU USE THE NUMBERS, NOT THE NUMBERS THEMSELVES, NOT THE RAW DATA ITSELF, BUT HOW YOU -- HOW YOU INTERPRET THAT DATA--- A. WELL--- Q. --- HOW YOU USE THE DATA. IS THAT A BETTER WAY OF SAYING IT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 152 MR. BURGESS: ARE--- MS. PONZOLI: I'M TRYING TO FOCUS, MR. BURGESS ON WHERE THE CONTROVERSY IS BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES. I AM NOT NECESSARILY DISAGREEING WITH WHAT DR. RICHARDSON WAS PREVIOUSLY SAYING, REGARDING, YOU KNOW, HOW PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT THE VARIOUS NUMBERS. A. WELL, WITH RELATIONSHIP TO THE PEAT ACCRETION NUMBERS, I THINK, AS I SAID, THAT THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT ON THE NUMBERS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A COUPLE, OR ONE OR -- I THINK MAYBE THERE'S ONE HIGH NUMBER THAT I'M NOT SURE, AND I'M NOT SURE ANYBODY KNOWS WHY, BECAUSE THERE'S SOME DIFFICULTY MEASURING CLOSE TO THE CANALS. I MEAN, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S WRONG. I'M SIMPLY SAYING IT JUST SEEMS TO BE EXCEEDINGLY HIGH. Q. BUT YOU DON'T THINK THAT ONE NUMBER IS THE CENTER OF A CONTROVERSY, DO YOU? A. NO, I DON'T THINK IT'S THE CENTER OF IT. I THINK THERE'S A POSSIBILITY--- Q. THAT IT BIASES THE DATA? A. I -- I PARTICULARLY WOULD NOT USE THAT PARTICULAR NUMBER, BUT IT DOESN'T -- IT DOESN'T SEEM TO ME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 153 THAT IT'S -- I WOULD WANT MORE FURTHER VERIFICATION ON THAT NUMBER. Q. WHERE DO YOU THINK THE CENTER OF THE CONTROVERSY IS, DR. RICHARDSON? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) SINCE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT'S IN THE NUMBERS THEMSELVES, WHERE DO YOU THINK IT LIES? AND YOU DON'T THINK IT'S REALLY THAT ONE OUTLIER, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT AN OUTLIER. I'M NOT CALLING IT AN OUTLIER, BUT THE ONE HIGH NUMBER. A. NO, IT'S -- I THINK IT'S A -- RELATED TO THE ACCRETION NUMBERS, I'D SAY PROBABLY DATA -- I USE THE DATA IN A VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD WAY. AS A FIELD ECOLOGIST, AND AS SOMEONE WHO DEALS WITH NUMBERS, I TRY TO UTILIZE THE DATA WITH AS LITTLE RE -- RE -- WELL, I WOULD SAY -- WHAT BE THE CORRECT WORD -- ROOM -- AS LITTLE MASSAGING TO THE DATA AS POSSIBLE. AND, SO, FROM AN ECOLOGICAL POINT OF VIEW, I TRY TO INTERPRET THE DATA THAT MAKES BIOLOGICAL SENSE, AND DETERMINES THE MECHANISMS OF HOW PHOSPHORUS IS STORED AND RETRIEVED. AND SO WHEN, IN FACT, I LOOK AT THAT DATA, I THINK WHAT'S ACCUMULATED IS THERE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 154 IT'S FACT. WE CAN PRETTY MUCH AGREE IT'S THERE. WHERE IT'S ACCUMULATED, I THINK CAN BE VERIFIED. IT'S IN THE GROUND. WHAT CAME IN, I THINK IS PRETTY--- (THEREUPON, ELECTRIC POWER WAS CUT OFF BRIEFLY, AND THE QUESTION AND ANSWER APPEARING ON PAGE-153, LINES 7-25, AND ON PAGE 154,.LINES 2-5, INCLUSIVE, WERE REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. --- PRETTY MUCH AGREED TO. AND SO, AS I SAID, I THINK IT'S THE APPROACHES THAT ARE USED. I USE MORE OF AN ECOLOGICAL APPROACH TO ANALYZING THIS DATA. AND USING THE BUDGET APPROACH THAT I DID, I THINK, IN FACT, ALLOWS ME TO COME UP WITH A FAIRLY REALISTIC PICTURE, IN FACT, A QUITE REALISTIC PICTURE OF ACTUAL STORAGE, AND STORAGE RATES. NOW, THE DISAGREEMENT, I THINK, LIES IN THE FACT THAT THERE IS A -- AN ATTEMPT TO -- TO, SHALL WE SAY, IF ONE WERE TO DESIGN SOMETHING, I SUPPOSE YOU'D HAVE TO INTERPRET -- YOU HAVE TO FOCUS ON MECHANISMS, OR YOU -- EXCUSE ME -- YOU HAVE TO COME UP WITH A METHODOLOGY TO TRY TO, I SUPPOSE, PREDICT RETENTION. BUT I THINK, AS I SAID BEFORE, THE RETENTION IS, THE -- WE HAVE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 155 ALREADY ESTIMATED HOW IT'S RETAINED AND WHAT'S THERE. BUT, IN ANY CASE, WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS WE HAVE A PAUCITY OF DATA THAT COVERS THE TIME FRAME IN WHICH WE WISH TO MAKE THOSE PREDICTIONS. AND THAT IS THE ONE AREA IN PARTICULAR. AND THAT IS, NUMBER ONE, WE HAVE THE LONG-TERM INTEGRATED PHOSPHORUS ACCRETION DATA, WHICH HAS ALL THE CAVEATS THAT I MENTIONED IN THE SAGE MEETING, ABOUT THE STRENGTHS OF IT, AND HOW IT HAS TO BE INTERPRETED. BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE EQUATION, WE HAVE A LIMITED WATER QUALITY DATA SET FOR A FEW YEARS. AND I FEEL SORRY FOR THE PROBLEM -- FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE PROBLEM OF TRYING TO BASICALLY INTERPRET WHAT TO DO WITH A SMALL DATA SET, A LIMITED DATA SET, TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A REALISTIC LONG-TERM PICTURE OF THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE RATE. AND, AS I SAID, I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THE SETTLING RATE IN GREAT DETAIL. THAT'S A WASTEWATER ENGINEERING APPROACH USUALLY TO SOMETHING THAT'S -- THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I HAVE TAKEN A DIFFERENT TACK TO. BUT WHEN I DID THAT, AS I DID IN THE SAGE MEETING, I BELIEVE I CAME UP WITH A SETTLING RATE, EVEN THOUGH I THINK I CLEARLY STATED IN THAT MEETING, I DON'T DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 156 THINK THAT'S THE APPROACH THAT I NECESSARILY ATTEST TO, BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT I THINK IT HAS PROBLEMS. BUT I'LL LOOK AT THAT IN FURTHER DETAIL AND TRY TO COME UP WITH A BETTER ASSESSMENT OF IT. BUT, RIGHT NOW, OUR NUMBER IS ABOUT HALF OF WHAT THAT METHOD SEEMS TO PRODUCE, AND I THINK THERE ARE SOME REASONS FOR THAT, BUT--- Q. AND THE REASONS THAT YOU'VE JUST BEEN OUTLINING TO ME ARE -- IS THAT THE -- SOME OTHER PEOPLE HAVE USED AN ENGINEERING APPROACH, AND YOU HAVE USED WHAT YOU CALL AN ECOLOGICAL APPROACH. IS THAT A FAIR --- A. WELL --- Q. --- SUMMATION OF WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME? A. --- IT'S NOT ONLY THAT, BUT IT'S ALSO THE INTERPRETATION OF HOW PHOSPHORUS IS STORED. I TRY TO -- AM BLENDING BOTH THE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW PHOSPHORUSES ARE STORED, WITH THE MORE OF A BLACK BOX APPROACH, WHEN--- Q. YOURS IS A BLACK BOX, OR--- A. NO, I BELIEVE--- Q. --- THEIRS IS A BLACK BOX? A. I THINK WHEN YOU COME UP WITH A AGAIN, SORT OF A FIRST ORDER APPROACH TO THIS, DOESN'T -- A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 157 SINGLE FIRST ORDER MODEL DOES NOT DESCRIBE ADEQUATELY WHAT TAKES PLACE IN TERMS OF PHOSPHORUS DYNAMICS WITHIN THE SYSTEM. THEY CAN GIVE YOU AN APPROXIMATION, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ERRORS, I THINK, INVOLVED WITH THAT. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, IF I'M UNDER -- WELL, WE'LL DO THIS. WE'LL TAKE YOUR EXHIBITS, AND WE'LL GO THROUGH THE SAGE PRESENTATION IN A LITTLE MORE DETAIL. CAN YOU AT LEAST GIVE ME THE -- THE ACTUAL ACREAGES, THE RANGE OF ACREAGES THAT YOU, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, BELIEVE WOULD BE NECESSARY TO ACHIEVE THE GOALS OF THE SWIM PLAN? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. WELL, I THINK WE'RE BACK TO POINT ONE. YOU TELL ME THE TONNAGE THAT YOU WANT REMOVED. AND, REMEMBER, MY RESEARCH HAS NOT BEEN SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO STA'S AND IT'S NOT BEEN SET UP TO SAY HOW MANY TONS ARE TO BE REMOVED. THAT DATA CAN BE UTILIZED IF -- IF -- I THINK IN THE SAGE MEETING I CAME UP WITH A, I THOUGHT, A REASONABLE ESTIMATE OF A HUNDRED METRIC TONS BEING PUT IN--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- AND THAT CAME UP WITH, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT, I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 158 DON'T WANT TO BE HELD TO THE EXACT ACRE PER ACRE NUMBER, BUT I BELIEVE IT WAS IN THE SIXTY THOUSAND ACRE RANGE. Q. IS THAT -- DO YOU HAVE -- WHEN YOU SAY THE SIXTY THOUSAND ACRE RANGE, YOU DON'T HAVE A LOW END AND A HIGH END ON YOURS? IT'S JUST THE SINGLE FIGURE? A. WELL, IN A SENSE, THAT TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE -- THAT NUMBER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT -- THERE'S A LITTLE BUFFER AREA IN THERE -- BUT IT ALSO TAKES INTO ACCOUNT HIGH, MIDDLE AND LOW UPTAKE RATES. I MEAN, AND I WILL SAY THAT. IT IS WEIGHTED FOR THOSE--- Q. BUT THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT USUALLY HAPPENS. YOU USUALLY WOULD HAVE IT ALL TAKEN OUT, OR THE BULK OF IT WOULD BE TAKEN OUT IN YOUR HIGH AND YOUR MIDDLE RANGE, WOULD IT NOT? A. THE BULK OF IT? Q. THE BULK OF YOUR PHOSPHORUS. A. A GOOD PORTION OF IT COULD BE TAKEN OUT EARLY ON. Q. SO, YOU DON'T NEED TO AVERAGE IN YOUR LOW RANGE? A. NOT NECESSARILY SO, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT -- IN FACT, I THINK IT BECOMES FAR MORE DIFFICULT TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 159 REMOVE, IF I UNDERSTAND IT, THE POTENTIAL GOALS, TO REACH ITS CONCENTRATION. I WOULD SAY THE EASIEST PART IS TO GET OUT THE PARTICULATE -- THE PROBABLY -- WELL, I'D SAY THE PARTICULATE UP FRONT. AND FROM THERE, THERE EITHER -- ARE CERTAIN COMPONENTS OF THE PHOSPHORUS, PHOSPHORUS FRACTIONS, THAT ARE EASIER TO COME OUT EARLIER, BUT, THE LAST PART--- Q. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT A HUNDRED PERCENT REMOVAL, DR. RICHARDSON? A. PROBABLY BACK DOWN TO SOME LEVEL, I FORGET, THIRTY, FORTY PERCENT OF THE -- NO -- EXCUSE ME -- THIRTY -- MAYBE THIRTY PARTS PER BILLION, OR FORTY PARTS PER BILLION, I SHOULD SAY. Q. SO, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO GET DOWN TO THIRTY PARTS PER BILLION, YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT -- THAT -- THAT -- WELL, WHAT ARE YOU TELLING ME? I'M CONFUSED AS TO WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME IN REGARD TO AS YOU REACH -- AS YOU GET CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE THIRTY PARTS PER BILLION. WHAT IS IT YOU'RE SAYING? A. I'M TELLING YOU THAT IT APPEARS FROM THE WAY IN WHICH THAT WORKS, THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE MORE ACREAGE TO REMOVE THAT COMPONENT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 160 Q. MORE THAN WHAT? IF YOU WERE TO TRY AND GET DOWN TO FIFTY OR SEVENTY-FIVE, OR -- OR MAYBE LET'S SAY A HUNDRED PARTS PER BILLION. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? A. NO, NOT PARTICULARLY. WHAT I'M SAYING--- Q. IT'S AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT. I NEED TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S YOU'RE SAYING. ARE YOU SAYING THERE'S SOME TYPE OF A LINEAR RELATIONSHIP IF YOU WANT TO GET DOWN--- A. I THINK IT'S CURVILINEAR. I THINK IT BASICALLY -- BUT, WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IF YOU LOOK AT -- LET ME GIVE YOU A FOR INSTANCE. Q. IN OTHER WORDS, INSTEAD OF A STRAIGHT LINE, IT MOVES IN ANOTHER DIRECTION. AND IT INCREASES AS YOU GO TO THE LOWER CONCENTRATIONS. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? A. IN A SENSE. IF YOU -- IF YOU TRY TO -- IF YOU TRY TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS, LET'S SAY, AS IT COMES IN FROM EAA, OR SOME -- SOME CANAL OR SO FORTH, THERE ARE TWO PARTS OF THIS. ONE IS THE REMOVAL PART, AND THE OTHER ONE IS THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS THAT'S LEFT IN THE WATER COLUMN, WHICH RELATES TO EFFICIENCY. AND SO, THE AREAS, AS I INTERPRET IT, WHERE YOU GET THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 161 HIGHEST REMOVAL, WHICH BY THREE -- PROBABLY THREE MECHANISMS WORKING SIMULTANEOUSLY -- PHYSICAL, BIOLOGICAL, CHEMICAL -- AND IT'S NOT QUITE CLEAR AS TO WHICH ONES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THERE, BUT WE MAY HAVE SOME EVIDENCE COMING FORTH ON THAT. WHEN YOU DO THAT, WHAT LEAVES THAT PARTICULAR COMPONENT, THE WATER COLUMN ITSELF HAS A HIGHER PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION, IF YOU FOLLOW ME. YOU MAY COME IN AT A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION, AND LEAVE THAT ZONE AT SEVENTY-FIVE, EIGHT, NINETY PARTS PER BILLION. IT MAY BE A LITTLE BIT LESS. AND SO THEN THAT MOVES TO THE NEXT COMPONENT OF THE SYSTEM, IF YOU FOLLOW ME. THAT ACREAGE IS SMALLER, THERE'S A SMALLER ACREAGE IN WHICH THAT WORKS. Q. SMALLER ACREAGE TO TAKE IT FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY TO SEVENTY, EIGHTY, NINETY? A. WELL, DOWN -- LET'S SAY TAKES IT DOWN THE FIRST COMPONENT TAKES IT DOWN. THEN AS THE ACREAGE STARTS TO INCREASE IN SIZE, IS THE EFFICIENCY GOES DOWN. Q. ISN'T THAT JUST THE OPPOSITE FROM WHAT ONE OF YOUR PAPERS SAYS, THAT THE -- THE HIGHEST EFFICIENCY WAS IN THE LOWER -- THE LOWER ZONES? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 162 MR. GREEN: OBJECTION. MR. BURGESS: YEAH, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. I THINK IT'S TIME TO SHOW THE WITNESS SOME -- SOME OF HIS PAPERS. WITNESS: I'D LIKE TO SEE WHAT PAPER YOU'RE REFERRING TO. MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T HAVE IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME. I'LL BRING IT TOMORROW. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YOU'RE NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT? A. WELL, IN GENERAL TERMS, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHICH PAPER. I MEAN, I'VE WRITTEN DOZENS OF PAPERS, so--- Q. BUT YOU DON'T RECALL THE PAPER THAT TALKED ABOUT THE HIGHEST EFFICIENCY WAS IN THE LOWER CONCENTRATION ZONES, IN THE LOWEST -- IN THE LOWEST AREA. YOU HAD YOUR HIGH NEAR THE STRUCTURES, YOUR MEDIUM, AND THEN YOUR LOW--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- AND YOU SAID THE HIGHEST EFFICIENCY WAS IN THE LOW AREAS. DIDN'T YOU? A. I DON'T REMEMBER. MR. BURGESS: AGAIN, OBJECTION. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 163 MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. I CAN -- I -- I WILL BRING THE PAPER. I CAN LOCATE IT. I'LL HAVE IT HERE TOMORROW. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. BUT, YOU WERE SAYING -- JUST SO I AM CLEAR, I JUST -- AS YOU GO TO THE LOWER CONCENTRATIONS, IT TAKES INCREASING ACREAGE TO ACCOMPLISH THE LOWER CONCENTRATIONS. IS THAT RIGHT? WE'RE TALKING CONCENTRATION, NOT LOAD. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MS. PONZOLI: WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE QUESTION? MR. BURGESS: "TO ACCOMPLISH THE LOWER CONCENTRATIONS," I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WANT TO GO DO YOU UNDERSTAND, DR. RICHARDSON, WHAT I MEAN? A. REPEAT IT PLEASE. Q. OKAY. LET'S ASSUME THAT YOUR GOAL -- YOU HAD SET THE GOAL OF THIRTY PARTS PER BILLION IN YOUR EXAMPLE, AND IT WAS COMING IN--- MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME, JUST FOR CLARIFICATION, I THINK HE SAID THIRTY TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 164 FORTY. AND YOU SAID THIRTY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU WANT TO HAVE A RANGE, OR DO YOU WANT HAVE A SINGLE NUMBER, DR. RICHARDSON? A. IT'S PROBABLY THIRTY OR FORTY, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET'S SAY YOU WANT TO GO DOWN TO THIRTY TO FORTY AND YOU'RE COMING IN AT A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PPB--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. --- ARE WE TOGETHER? SURFACE WATER TOTAL PHOSPHORUS? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY) UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. IF I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING TO ME, IF YOU HAD -- ARE YOU ASSUMING SEVERAL ZONES OF CLEANSING? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? A. AM I DOING WHAT? Q. DOES YOUR -- DOES YOUR EXAMPLE INCLUDE SEVERAL ZONES OF CLEANSING? IS THAT WHAT IT INCLUDES? OR DOES IT -- IF YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO -- LET'S SAY IF YOU WERE TRYING TO CLEAN FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY TO NINETY, OR LET'S SAY YOU WERE TRYING TO GO FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY TO SIXTY, OR LET'S SAY YOU WERE TRYING TO GO FROM A HUNDRED AND FIFTY TO THIRTY TO FORTY, TO MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY. ALL RIGHT. IS WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME, THAT IN ORDER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 165 TO GET IT DOWN TO THIRTY TO FORTY, IT WOULD TAKE GREATER ACREAGE, THAN IT WOULD TO GET IT DOWN TO NINETY? A. YES, I THINK THAT'S--- Q. WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER. DO YOU THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF DISPUTE OVER THAT? A. OVER WHAT? Q. THAT IT WOULD TAKE GREATER ACREAGE TO GET IT DOWN TO THIRTY TO FORTY THAN TO NINETY? A. I DON'T THINK SO. Q. OKAY. WHERE DO YOU -- WE WENT THROUGH WHERE WE THINK -- WHERE YOU THINK THE DISPUTE LIES. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THIS IN MORE DETAIL WITH YOUR DOCUMENTS. BECAUSE I MAY -- I MAY BE CONFUSING MY QUESTIONS. WE'LL DO THIS -- WE'LL TAKE YOUR DOCUMENTS AND DO IT IN MORE DETAIL TOMORROW. ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU -- YOU SAY -- DID YOU ACTUALLY -- I DON'T REMEMBER -- I WAS AT YOUR SAGE PRESENTATION -- DID YOU ACTUALLY GIVE ACREAGE AT THAT PRESENTATION, A RANGE OF ACREAGE FOR WHATEVER IT WAS, THE HUNDRED METRIC TONS? MR. BURGESS: OKAY, I'M GOING -- I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE QUESTION. THE WITNESS HAS ASKED A COUPLE OF TIMES IF YOU HAVE HIS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 166 SAGE MATERIALS AND HANDOUTS. HE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM. AND YOU CONTINUE TO ASK HIM QUESTIONS ON WHAT HIS RECOLLECTION IS. AND HE'S ASKED TO SEE THE MATERIAL. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU NEED THE MATERIALS, DR. RICHARDSON? A. WELL, IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO SEE THOSE, BECAUSE I'VE GIVEN DOZEN OF PRESENTATIONS. Q. OKAY. WELL, WE'LL -- WE'LL GET THEM TO YOU TOMORROW. I DON'T HAVE THEM RIGHT HERE, AND I THINK IT'S REALLY SORT OF A WASTE OF TIME TO GO GET THEM. ALL RIGHT. I THINK WEFVE DONE AS MUCH AS WE CAN DO ON THAT ONE. NUMBER TWO, YOU SAY THAT YOU -- WELL, YOU'RE LISTED BY THE COOPERATIVE THAT YOU WILL OFFER SUBSTANCE OF OPINION -- IT SAYS THAT, "THE HYDROPERIOD ALTERATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THE CONSTRUCTION AND OPERATION OF THE PROJECT---" A. WHAT PAGE ARE YOU ON, PLEASE? Q. SIXTEEN -- "ARE THE PRIMARY CAUSES OF ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGES IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, AND EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK." IS THAT THE TESTIMONY THAT YOU GAVE US THIS MORNING ON YOUR ECOLOGICAL APPROACH? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 167 A. YES. Q. ANYTHING ELSE THAT'S DIFFERENT IN REGARD TO THE COOPERATIVE'S TESTIMONY? A. NO, I THINK IT -- I THINK THAT ESSENTIALLY THOSE THINGS ARE SOMEWHAT RELATED. AND, AGAIN, THE ONLY THING I WOULD STATE IS THE ENP, AS I STATED EARLIER, WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE -- I CAN'T GET IN THERE, NOR HAVE I SEEN ALL OF THE DATA, REALLY, OF THE ENP, SO I -- YOU KNOW, UNTIL I HAVE THAT, IT WOULD BE--- Q. YOU'LL ONLY BE OFFERING IT ON THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS? A. UNLESS I GET INFORMATION ON THAT, OR GET IN THERE--- Q. SURE. ALL RIGHT. AND THE RESEARCH -- IS THE RESEARCH--- A. --- WHICH MEANS I'LL PROBABLY NEVER GET IN THERE, BUT--- Q. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. MR. GREEN: WAS THAT A COMMITMENT? MS. PONZOLI: I WOULD LIKE SOME MUTUAL COMMITMENTS. (BY MS. PONZOLI) THE HYDROPERIOD ALTERATION, THIS RESEARCH THAT THIS WILL BE BASED ON IS WHAT, DR. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 168 RICHARDSON? IS THAT WHAT YOU OUTLINED THIS MORNING? THE -- THE U.S.G.S. HYDROLOGIC DATA, THE CORPS DATA, THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT HYDROLOGIC DATA, IS THAT--- A. THAT'S THE PRIMARY, AT THE LANDSCAPE LEVEL, ALONG WITH SOME OF THE INDIVIDUAL FIELD DATA, THAT I MIGHT USE FOR SPECIFIC--- Q. OKAY. A. --- PLANT RESPONSES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NUMBER THREE, "ANALYSIS OF FIELD DATA FROM WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A INDICATES THAT THE AREA HAS FUNCTIONED EFFECTIVELY AS A PHOSPHORUS SINK." YOU SAID THIS ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS. I MEAN, THAT JUST IS YOUR OPINION, AS IT'S STATED THERE. is IT NOT? A. CORRECT. Q. AND, JUST BRIEFLY, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? A. IT SIMPLY MEANS UNDER THE CONDITIONS THAT THIS IS AN AREA THIS AREA HAS BEEN RECEIVING NUTRIENTS, THAT A THAT A -- WELL, THE WHOLE WATER CONSERVATION AREA HAS RETAINED EFFECTIVELY -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE EXACT FIGURE IS -- BUT IT'S RETAINED ALL OF THE PHOSPHORUS THAT PRETTY MUCH HAS BEEN PUT IN, WITH A FEW PERCENTAGES OUT, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 169 THAT IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THAT AREA, THERE IS AN AREA THAT HAS FUNCTIONED PRETTY MUCH AS A SINK. THE MATERIAL HAS BEEN RETAINED WITHIN THE PEAT, AN ACCRETION COMPLEX, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT. AND THAT UNDER THOSE LOADING CONDITIONS -- IF THE CONDITIONS CHANGE -- THEN I'M JUST TELLING YOU THAT WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF WHAT -- OF THE -- OF THE CONDITIONS THAT ARE IN THERE NOW, THAT'S HOW IT'S FUNCTIONED. Q. SO, HISTORICALLY, IT HAS FUNCTIONED THIS WAY; AND, PRESENTLY, YOU SAY IS FUNCTIONING THIS WAY? A. I BELIEVE IT -- I BELIEVE THE EVIDENCE IS COMING TO SUPPORT THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A HAS BEEN FUNCTIONING AS AN EFFECTIVE SINK FOR PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. ARE THERE PERIODS WHERE IT HAS NOT FUNCTIONED EFFECTIVELY IN THAT WAY? A. THE WHOLE WATER CONSERVATION AREA, OR--- Q. 2A, THE -- WELL, YOU'RE TALKING, REALLY -- YOU'RE TALKING REALLY THAT THE LARGE -- THAT THE UPPER END, THE IMPACTED END HAS FUNCTIONED AS THAT SINK. A. I'M JUST TRYING TO CLARIFY WHICH END YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? Q. WELL--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 170 A. DO YOU WANT THE WHOLE AREA? THE WHOLE AREA, I THINK, HAS EFFECTIVELY FUNCTIONED AS A PHOSPHORUS SINK. Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU SAY THAT STATEMENT, YOU MEAN ALL OF 2A? A. WELL, THE UPPER PORTION OF IT HAS FUNCTIONED FOR THE SIXTY ODD METRIC TONS PER YEAR THAT SEEM TO HAVE BEEN PUT IN THERE, OVER THE LAST, I DON'T KNOW, TEN, FIFTEEN YEARS, TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, WHATEVER IT IS. Q. OKAY. SO, YOUR STATEMENT REFERS TO THE IMPACTED UPPER NORTHERN END, AS REFLECT--- A. TO BOTH. Q. TO BOTH, THE WHOLE WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A? OKAY. A. TO BOTH. Q. SO, IF I ASK YOU, ARE THERE TIMES WHEN ALL OF 2A HAS NOT FUNCTIONED AS AN EFFECTIVE SINK, ARE YOU AWARE OF THOSE? A. WELL, TIMES -- I MEAN, I--- Q. ARE THERE PERIODS OF TIME, I MEAN--- A. THE DATA THAT I HAVE LOOKED AT--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY TIMES IT HAS NOT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 171 Q. OKAY. AND IS IT -- WOULD IT BE--- A. BUT I CANFT SAY I'VE LOOKED AT EVERY--- Q. OKAY. A. --- PIECE OF DATA THAT EVER EXISTED. Q. IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT IT WILL CONTINUE TO OPERATE IN THAT WAY? A. THE WHOLE CONSERVATION AREA 2A? Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. I THINK IT WILL CONTINUE TO FUNCTION AS A PHOSPHORUS SINK. Q. FOR HOW LONG? A. WELL, IF THE RATES -- IF THE RATES OF INPUT DO NOT CHANGE DRAMATICALLY, I BELIEVE THE AREA ITSELF HAS A VERY LARGE CAPACITY TO RETAIN ALL OF THE PHOSPHORUS THAT'S BEING PUT IN THERE NOW. IT'S HARD TO PREDICT THE TIME FRAME, BUT THERE'S FIVE THOUSAND YEARS OF PEAT THERE, AND I WOULD SAY -- WELL, ACTUALLY, IN THAT AREA, THERE'S PROBABLY THIRTY-SEVEN HUNDRED TO FOUR THOUSAND YEARS -- IT COULD EASILY GO ON FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. IT COULD BE FIVE HUNDRED YEARS. I DONFT KNOW. Q. IN YOUR OPINION, WOULD THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF 2A BEGIN TO LOOK LIKE THE NORTHERN PORTION? A. UNDER THE PRESENT LOADING RATES, I WOULD THINK THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 172 WHOLE -- THERE'S NOT ENOUGH PHOSPHORUS COMING IN UNDER THE PRESENT LOADING RATES TO AFFECT THE WHOLE AREA. I THINK IT WOULD BE -- THERE WOULD BE SOME STABILIZED AREA. Q. I'M NOT SURE IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR ANSWER. I HAD ASKED WHETHER THE SECOND HALF, THE LOWER HALF, THE SOUTHERN HALF--- A. CORRECT. Q. --- WOULD BEGIN TO LOOK MORE LIKE THE NORTHERN HALF. AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR ANSWER TO BE YES OR NO. A. WELL, I DON'T HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION ON THAT YET, BUT WE'RE TRYING TO -- BASICALLY, ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE TRYING TO DO, IS TO DETERMINE THE STABILITY OF THAT PARTICULAR REGION. AS I SAID, UNDER THE PRESENT FIFTY TO SAY SIXTY METRIC TONS IN THERE, IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THE NORTHERN REGION HAS REACHED SOME STABILITY, AND THAT'S WHAT THE EVIDENCE WOULD KIND OF INDICATE. WE'VE GOT A FEW MORE ANALYSES TO DO ON THAT FRINGE, TO FERRET THAT OUT. WE ARE, IN FACT, GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT, I THINK, IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS. BUT, ESSENTIALLY, I THINK THE PHOSPHORUS IS BEING RETAINED, PRETTY EFFECTIVELY IN THAT NORTHERN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 173 REGION, THAT ELEVEN TO TWELVE THOUSAND HECTARE REGION. SO, IF IT'S BEING RETAINED IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA, AND SOMETHING ELSE DOESN'T CHANGE THE VEGETATION, I THINK THAT AREA IS SOMEWHAT STABILIZED. Q. WHAT ARE THE FEW MORE ANALYSES THAT YOU NEED TO DO TO DECIDE THIS? A. WE ARE TRYING TO LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS DISTRIBUTIONS, AND THE PROFILE ON A MORE REFINED BASIS, AT THE LOWER END OF THE GRADIENT, THE LOW -- WELL, THE MIDDLE -- MIDDLE -- THE MIDDLE TO LOWER END OF THE GRADIENT, WE WILL BE DOING SOME MORE CORES THERE. Q. HAVE YOU PULLED THOSE CORES YET? A. WE -- WHEW, I DON'T KNOW. WE MAY HAVE -- WE HAVE NOT PULLED THEM ALL. I KNOW THAT. Q. OKAY. I MAY NEED TO RETURN -- I THINK I WILL NEED TO RETURN TO THAT CONCEPT OF STABILITY. I DON'T WANT TO BEAT IT TO DEATH NOW. NUMBER FOUR, THE LAST ONE, "OPINIONS REGARDING ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHORUS ON" WELL, THIS IS TO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE, SO YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO OPINIONS AS YOU SIT HERE NOW. "VARIOUS OTHER OPINIONS ARE CONTAINED IN YOUR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 174 SEVERAL REPORTS." ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT OTHER OPINIONS YOU WOULD OFFER EXPERT TESTIMONY ON, DR. RICHARDSON? THIS VARIOUS CURRENT OPINIONS ARE CONTAINED IN THE--- A. I'M LOST -- WHERE ARE YOU NOW? Q. I'M IN PARAGRAPH FOUR, MIDWAY, "HOWEVER, VARIOUS CURRENT OPINIONS ARE CONTAINED..." AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S REFERRING TO THE REFUGE, AND -- AND THE PARK, OR--- A. THIS SENTENCE THAT READS, "HOWEVER, VARIOUS CURRENT OPINIONS ARE CONTAINED--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- IN SEVERAL REPORTS--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---THAT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER HAS SUBMITTED TO THE" -- I THINK THAT'S JUST REFERRING TO -- I DIDN'T WRITE THIS, SO I -- I ASSUME IT'S JUST REFERRING TO SOME OF OUR UPCOMING QUARTERLY REPORTS, AND WHAT WAS IN OUR ANNUAL REPORTS, I ASSUME, BECAUSE IT'S TO THE EVERGLADES PROTECTION DISTRICT, AND THAT'S ALL WE SUBMIT TO THEM. Q. DO YOU THINK IT REFERS TO THE EFFECTS OF PHOSPHORUS ON THE PARK AND THE REFUGE SUCH AS YOU'VE -- YOURVE EXPRESSED THE OPINION THAT THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 17S PARK RECEIVES EXCELLENT QUALITY WATER. DO YOU THINK THAT'S THE TYPE OF OPINION IT'S REFERRING TO? A. IT'S HARD TO KNOW. IT COULD BE. AS I SAID, I DIDN'T WRITE THIS, SO--- Q. ALL RIGHT. MS. PONZOLI: LET'S TAKE A COUPLE OF MINUTES, BECAUSE I THINK WE'VE DONE ALL WE CAN DO WITH THIS. LET'S AND TAKE A FIVE MINUTE BREAK. (THEREUPON, A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. DR. RICHARDSON, ARE YOU WORKING WITH OTHER EXPERT WITNESSES? A. I REALLY CAN'T HEAR--- MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. MS. PONZOLI: I'M TRYING TO ASK THIS QUESTION WITHOUT ALL OF YOU. MR. GREEN: COULD YOU START AGAIN, SUZAN? COULD YOU REPEAT THAT QUESTION, PLEASE? MS. PONZOLI: HE SAID HE COULDN'T HEAR IT, ANYWAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 176 Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. RICHARDSON, ARE YOU WORKING WITH OTHER EXPERT WITNESSES FOR THE LEAGUE OR THE COOPERATIVE IN PREPARATION FOR TESTIMONY IN THE SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDINGS? A. I'VE HAD SOME CONTACT WITH SOME OF THE -- SOME OTHER WITNESSES, I GUESS, THAT ARE LISTED. I'm NOT SURE WHO ALL WAS LISTED--- Q. OKAY. A. --- I'VE HAD--- Q. IN ANTICIPATION OF THAT, I BROUGHT THE LIST. A. AS I HAD MENTIONED TO YOU EARLIER, I HAVE BEEN SPENDING THE VAST MAJORITY OF MY TIME PRETTY MUCH ON THE RESEARCH. I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME -- SOME OTHER TYPES OF WORK. SO, IF YOU -- IF YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC, LET ME KNOW.- Q. OKAY. WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU BEEN DOING IN PREPARATION FOR THE SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDING, OTHER THAN YOUR RESEARCH? I THINK YOU MENTIONED LITERATURE SEARCHES; YOU HAD DONE THAT. A. LITERATURE SEARCHES, REVIEW OF SOME DOCUMENTS. Q. WHAT DOCUMENTS HAVE YOU REVIEWED? A. IT'S -- IF YOU'VE GONE THROUGH MY FILES, YOU HAVE SEEN AN EXTENSIVE VOLUME OF MATERIAL, MANY OF WHICH I HAVE NOT READ, BUT SOME OF WHICH I HAVE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 177 SO I HAVE REVIEWED SOME OF THAT INFORMATION. I HAVE ESSENTIALLY -- LET'S SEE -- MET WITH A FEW PEOPLE IN TERMS OF PROVIDING EXPERT OPINIONS ON PRESENTATIONS, EXPERT OPINION ON INDIVIDUALS WHO MIGHT BE MORE APPROPRIATE TO DO CERTAIN ASPECTS OF WORK, AND SO FORTH. Q. ANYTHING ELSE? A. RELATING TO THE CHALLENGE, NO. Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU'VE DONE LITERATURE SEARCHES ON WHICH TOPICS? A. WELL, PHOSPHORUS, AND EVERGLADES ECOLOGY, SOILS, SOIL CHEMISTRY, WETLAND COMMUNITY RESPONSE, ALMOST EVERYTHING ON THE EVERGLADES. I THINK THAT WAS THE KEY WORD IN A LOT OF THOSE. THE HYDROL -- SOME COMPONENTS OF THE HYDROLOGY. Q. ANYTHING ELSE? A. I MEAN, WHEN I SAY WETLANDS ECOLOGY, THAT'S PRETTY EXTENSIVE. I MEAN, IT'S, YOU KNOW, CATTAIL, CALAD-TUM, A SPECIFIC SPECIES, TRYING TO FIND OUT THE INFORMATION ON HOW THEY RESPOND PHYSIOLOGICALLY. Q. I ASSUME YOU DON'T DO THIS YOURSELF, YOU HAVE AN ASSISTANT DO THEM? A. I SET UP THE INITIAL LISTS AND I REVIEW THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 178 DOCUMENTS. I MAINTAIN A CURRENT LITERATURE PROFILE SYSTEM WHICH I GO THROUGH MYSELF, AND TRY TO EXTRACT PAPERS. BUT, PRIMARILY, ALL OF THE HARD WORK WAS DONE BY SOMEONE ELSE. Q. OKAY. DID YOU -- DID YOU PROVIDE THESE VARIOUS DOCUMENTS AMONG ALL THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU PROVIDED TO THE UNITED STATES? A. THE COMPUTER SEARCHES AND LISTS? Q. THE COMPUTER SEARCHES, AND/OR THE HARD COPIES OF THE ARTICLES, IF YOU HAD HARD COPIES. A. I DO NOT BELIEVE WE DID SO. WE PROVIDED SOME, BUT SINCE I WASN'T RELYING ON ALL OF THOSE, THERE ARE SOME OF THOSE THAT ARE SO TANGENTIAL TO THIS, THAT I, YOU KNOW, DIDN'T--- Q. SO, AS TO THE EXPERT OPINIONS YOU PRESENTLY HAVE, YOU DID PROVIDE THE LITERATURE -- LITERATURE SEARCHES AND/OR THE HARD COPY DOCUMENTS THAT YOU HAD? A. I PROVIDED THE DOCUMENTS AND THE PAPERS THAT I THOUGHT WERE APPROPRIATE FOR MY EXPERT OPINION--- Q. IS THERE SOMETHING--- A. --- I HAD NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THE COMPUTER -- IT'S BEEN SO LONG SINCE WE'VE -- DID THAT--- Q. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 179 A. ---THAT I DID NOT THINK ABOUT THE COMPUTER SEARCH. Q. IN REGARD TO THESE AREAS THAT ARE STILL EMERGING, OR UNCLEAR IN YOUR MIND WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO TESTIFY ON THEM OR NOT, ARE THERE OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT WOULD BE CALLED UP, WERE YOU TO OFFER EXPERT TESTIMONY ON THOSE AREAS? A. ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE? Q. RIGHT, RIGHT. A. HUH, NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF. THE ONLY -- THE ONLY VARIANCE ON THAT MIGHT BE THAT IN SOME OF THE PAPERS AND CHAPTERS THAT WE HAVE, THERE ARE A FAIRLY LARGE NUMBER OF REFERENCES THAT WE REFERENCE; IN OTHER WORDS, WE MAKE, YOU KNOW, REFERENCES TO PAPERS, STEWARD AND ORNES, OR HUNDREDS OF OTHER PAPERS THAT MAY BE REFERENCED IN VARIOUS DOCUMENTS THAT WE DRAW UPON--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- WE DID NOT PROVIDE COPIES OF THOSE. Q. OKAY. AND YOU INDICATED THAT -- DOCUMENTS THAT YOU HAVE REVIEWED. NOW, THOSE DOCUMENTS EITHER WERE PROVIDED, OR ARE REFLECTED IN THOSE -- IN THOSE PAPERS THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN, OR PAPERS THAT YOU WOULD CITE AS A FOUNDATION FOR YOUR OPINION, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 180 A. THAT'S IS CORRECT. Q. OKAY. BECAUSE THAT'S JUST -- DR. RADER'S DOCUMENT, DR. RADER'S PUBLICATION, AND YOURS, LISTS -- I DON'T KNOW -- A HUNDRED DIFFERENT ARTICLES AT THE END. A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, IF I WERE TO SHOW YOU THAT PARTICULAR PUBLICATION, YOU COULD TELL ME IF THERE WERE ANY ARTICLES OR PUBLICATIONS, WITHIN THAT LIST UPON WHICH YOUR EXPERT OPINION WOULD BE BASED. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU A GOOD ASSESSMENT OF THAT. Q. OKAY. YOU SAID YOU MET WITH PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT EXPERT TESTIMONY OR PRESENTATIONS. WHO DID YOU MEET WITH? MR. BURGESS: WELL, OBJECT TO THE FORM. ON WHAT OCCASION? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WELL, HE HAS TO TELL ME THE OCCASIONS. HOW MANY OCCASIONS HAVE YOU MET WITH PEOPLE TO DO THIS? A. TO DO -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL YOU'VE GOT TESTIMONY, WHICH IfM NOT SURE I SAID TESTIMONY, AND I MEANT TO DO THIS. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THIS IS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 181 Q. WELL, TO PROVIDE -- YOU SAID TO PROVIDE EXPERT, AND I JUST WROTE DOWN EXPERT, SO I ASSUME THE NEXT WORK WAS EXPERT TESTIMONY; MAYBE IT WAS EXPERT CONSULTATION. I DON'T KNOW. I WROTE DOWN THAT YOU HAD MET WITH PEOPLE TO PROVIDE EXPERT, AND THEN TO PREPARE FOR PRESENTATIONS. DO YOU RECALL EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID? A. NOT EXACTLY, NO, BUT--- Q. BUT WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? I MEAN, YOU'VE MET--- A. I'VE MET WITH PEOPLE FROM THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE ON OCCASION. Q. WHOM HAVE YOU MET WITH? A. WELL, ORIGINALLY, I MET WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH, WHEN HE WAS HEAD OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. UH-HUH (YES). THAT WAS IN WHAT YEAR? A. I THINK IT WAS f88. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN IN 188? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS THE FALL. I HOPE I HAVE THE RIGHT YEAR. I THINK IT'S THE FALL. Q. FOLLOWING OCTOBER AND THE FILING OF THE FEDERAL COMPLAINT? A. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE -- I BELIEVE IT WAS PRIOR -- PRIOR TO THAT OR SOMETHING -- BECAUSE MY RECOLLECTION IS AT THE TIME, THAT'S -- WE -- WHEN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 182 WE MET WAS TO DISCUSS THE CATTAIL PROBLEM, IF IT EXISTED, AND WHAT I KNEW ABOUT WETLANDS AND EVERGLADES, AND WERE REALLY -- THE EVERGLADES ISSUE. THAT WAS AFTER A PHONE CALL FROM -- THAT MEETING WAS AFTER A PHONE CALL FROM ED BARBER, WHO WAS -- WHO I'D ACTUALLY TALKED TO IN ORLANDO IN -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN 186. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT YEAR. I -- I'M SORRY, I GO TO SO MANY CONFERENCES, BUT IT WAS THE ORLANDO CONFERENCE. THAT COULD BE -- WE COULD LOOK IT UP,. Q. WAS IT A WETLAND CONFERENCE IN ORLANDO? A. IT WAS A WETLANDS CONFERENCE ON CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS, AND ED AND I HAD A DISCUSSION AFTER MY PRESENTATION ON THE USE OF NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL WETLANDS FOR NUTRIENT REMOVAL, SOME TYPE OF ECOLOGICAL -- I THINK IT WAS AN ECOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THAT. AND THAT WAS MY FIRST CONTACT WITH PEOPLE FROM THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. OKAY, WAS IN ABOUT '86, AT THIS WETLANDS CONFERENCE? A. I BELIEVE SO. BUT, AT THAT TIME, I REALLY DIDN'T -- IT DIDN'T DAWN ON ME, BECAUSE THE WORD SUGAR CANE LEAGUE WAS NEVER MENTIONED, AND WE JUST TALKED ABOUT NUTRIENTS AND WETLANDS, AND THE USE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 183 OF CONSTRUCTED VERSUS NATURAL WETLANDS AND SOME SPECIFIC THINGS. I ACTUALLY REMEMBER VERY LITTLE ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR CONVERSATION, EXCEPT THAT I DID MEET HIM. Q. SURE. ALL RIGHT. BUT THE PRESENTATION THAT YOU MADE -- HAVE YOU ACTUALLY DESIGNED CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS BEFORE, DR. RICHARDSON? A. I HAVE DONE SOME OF THAT. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS ARE EFFICIENT FOR REMOVAL OF PHOSPHORUS? A. I THINK THE JURY IS OUT ON THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE. Q. WHERE HAVE YOU DESIGNED CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS? A. WELL, WE HAVE ACTUALLY HELPED TVA WITH SOME OF THEIR -- REFINEMENTS ON SOME OF THEIR DESIGNS ON THAT. AND WE ACTUALLY HELPED THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA WITH THEIR WASTEWATER PROBLEM, WHEN WE LOOKED AT REMOVAL OF WASTEWATER AT A COUPLE OF SITES IN NORTH CAROLINA. WHO IS WE? A. DR. MARK WALBRIDGE, AND -- MY FORMER POST DOC IN MY LABORATORY -- MYSELF, AND SOME GRADUATE STUDENTS. Q. NOW, THAT WAS FOR NORTH CAROLINA? A. THAT WAS FOR NORTH CAROLINA. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 184 Q. AND WHAT ABOUT TVA? A. WHERE -- WHAT ABOUT TVA? Q. WHO -- WHO WAS THE WE ON TVA? A. STEVE FAULKNER, A GRADUATE STUDENT, AND MYSELF, AND THE STAFF FROM TVA. Q. NOW, DID YOU DESIGN, OR YOU JUST WORKED ON REFINEMENTS TO A CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS THAT TVA HAD DESIGNED? A. WE GAVE -- FOR TVA, WE GAVE ADVICE ON SOME COMPONENTS OF HOW THEY MIGHT CHANGE FLOWS, AND HOW THEY MIGHT LOOK AT SOME COMPONENTS, AND THEN I LATER MET WITH TVA. I WAS ASKED TO COME IN AS AN EXPERT TO OVERVIEW THEIR DESIGN, AND THE MUSSEL SHOALS. THEY HAVE A -- THEY HAVE A CONSTRUCTED WETLAND AT MUSSEL SHOALS, ALABAMA, SO I WAS ASKED TO -- AND HAD BEEN ASKED TO HELP. Q. THAT'S A DIFFERENT ONE, A DIFFERENT? A. THAT'S A DIFFERENT ONE. OKAY. NOW, IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOU, ARE YOU Q. SAYING THAT THESE TWO CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS, WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY HAVE WORKED OR NOT? A. SOME OF THEM HAVE AND SOME OF THEM HAVE NOT. Q. AND WHEN YOU SAY WORKED OR NOT, DO YOU -- WELL, HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU DEFINE SUCCESS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 185 A. IN THOSE PARTICULAR INSTANCES, I BELIEVE TVA WAS DECID -- THEY WERE DECIDING ON SUCCESS IF THEY MET COMPLIANCE WITH THEIR DISCHARGE PERMIT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. WHETHER THEY WOULD -- IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE, IT WAS RELATED TO THE PARTICULAR ELEMENTS. Q. OKAY. THE FIRST ONE, THE FIRST TVA PROJECT WAS WHERE AND WHEN? A. LET'S SEE, I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT FIRST TIME. IT WAS IN THE LATE EIGHTIES. Q. OKAY. BUT DO YOU KNOW THE LOCATION? A. YES, OUTSIDE OF CHATTANOOGA, AND THEN IT ACTUALLY GOES OVER THE BORDER INTO ALABAMA. Q. DID THAT ONE MEET ITS COMPLIANCE DISCHARGE? A. THAT ONE DID. Q. THAT ONE -- SO THAT WAS SUCCESSFUL BY THEIR STANDARDS? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT THE SECOND ONE, ON THE MUSSEL SHOALS, YOU SAID? A. THAT'S A TEST RESEARCH FACILITY. Q. OKAY. A. I'M NOT SURE THAT ONE IS OPERATIONAL AT THIS STAGE. THEY HAVE CONSTRUCTED IT, BUT I THINK DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 186 THEY'RE NOW TRYING TO DETERMINE--- Q. OH, SO, THAT ONE'S JUST A -- IT'S A RESEARCH PROJECT? A. THAT IS A RE -- WELL, THAT IS A RESEARCH PROJECT TO BE USED, RIGHT. Q. OKAY. AND WHEN WAS THAT ONE BROUGHT ON LINE? A. THIS LAST YEAR, I BELIEVE. Q. OKAY. AND THEN YOU SAID NORTH CAROLINA, YOU HAD WORKED WITH THEM, DR. MARBRIDGE, AND YOU HAD WORKED WITH--- A. WALBRIDGE. Q. MALBRIDGE? A. WAL -- W-A-L. Q. I'M SORRY -- WALBRIDGE -- AND WORKED WITH NORTH CAROLINA ON A WASTEWATER REMOVAL SYSTEM? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND WHERE AND WHEN WAS THAT, EXACTLY WHERE IN NORTH CAROLINA, AND WHEN? A. THAT WAS IN THE EIGHTIES -- 187, I THINK, 188, SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. DON'T HOLD ME TO THAT. I MAY BE OFF BY--- Q. NO, THAT'S OKAY. THAT'S OKAY. AND WHERE IN NORTH CAROLINA? A. CLARKTON. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 187 Q. OKAY. AND WAS THAT ONE SUCCESSFUL? A. NO. Q. NOT SUCCESSFUL. WHY? A. THEY OVERLOADED THE SYSTEM, TOO SMALL AN AREA. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT -- WHAT LEVELS WERE THEY TRYING -- THEY WERE AT WHAT LEVELS TRYING TO BRING IT DOWN TO WHAT LEVELS? A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE DOCUMENTS. I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. IS THIS SEWAGE WATER THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO --- A. PRIMARILY. Q. OKAY. ANY OTHERS THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF THAT --- A. THERE WAS A SECOND SITE. THAT WAS -- I THINK WAS I THINK IT WAS LEWISTON, I THINK THAT'S THE AND THAT WAS A SECOND SITE. THERE WERE ACTUALLY TWO SITES FOR NORTH CAROLINA. Q. OKAY. WAS THAT AGAIN A WASTEWATER TREATMENT FACILITY? A. THAT'S CORRECT. WAS IT SUCCESSFUL? A. IT WAS BETTER. Q. IS THE BOOK OUT ON THAT ONE? A. THE BOOK? Q. OR, WE DON'T KNOW? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 188 A. OH. Q. I'M SORRY. A. I BELIEVE THE STATE FEELS THAT IT IS -- THAT AREA IS FUNCTIONING. I'M NOT SURE -- IT'S NOT WORTH REALLY GOING INTO GREAT DETAIL ON, BUT I'M NOT SURE THE STATE HAS ANY OTHER CHOICE IN THAT PARTICULAR REGION. THEY HAVE TO GO WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO THE COMMUNITY IF IT WASN'T IN COMPLIANCE. I MEAN, THEY -- THE NINE HUNDRED PEOPLE OR A THOUSAND PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO GO TO--- Q. HOW'D THEY PRODUCE--- A. --- THE BATHROOM SOMEWHERE, SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT THEY WOULD DO. Q. HOW BIG WERE THESE IN NORTH CAROLINA--- A. HOW--- Q. --- HOW LARGE WERE THEY? A. THE ONE IN -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE ACREAGES. WE'RE TALKING LESS THAN A HUNDRED ACRES. Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT THE ONES IN -- HOW ABOUT THE TVA ONES? A. THEY'RE ONLY A FEW ACRES IN SIZE. THEY DO VARY, BUT THEY'RE NOT LARGE, BY COMPARISON. Q. OKAY. SO, IT'S YOUR OPINION THAT YOU'RE NOT SURE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 189 THAT FLOWWAYS, STAIS ACTUALLY WORK? IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID? A. I MY OPINION IS THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH DATA TO I HAVE -- I THINK I HAVE PUBLISHED EXTENSIVELY AND TALKED ABOUT THIS FOR YEARS -- THAT PHOSPHORUS IS A VERY DIFFICULT ION TO REMOVE, VIA WETLAND SYSTEMS. AND, SO, IT WOULD TAKE VERY CAREFUL PLANNING AND DESIGN TO MEET THOSE GOALS. Q. NOW, YOU DO BELIEVE THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A IS WORKING, HOWEVER? A. I DO BELIEVE 2A IS WORKING, BECAUSE IT'S A VERY LARGE AREA, FOR THE INPUT THAT IT'S RECEIVING. Q. SO, IT'S NOT THE MATTER OF WHETHER IT'S NATURAL OR CONSTRUCTED, IT'S A - IT'S A MATTER OF SIZE? A. WELL, IT'S NOT ONLY JUST SIZE. IT'S THE RETENTION TIME, THE FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS GOING IN, THE WATER DEPTH, AND WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, ONE IS EXCEEDING THE TOTAL MAGNITUDE OF THE UPTAKE AND STORAGE PROCESSES. Q. HAS TO BE SIZED PROPERLY? A. HAS TO BE SIZED PROPERLY. Q. SO -- BUT IT'S NOT A MATTER OF NATURAL VERSUS CONSTRUCTED IN YOUR MIND? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 190 A. IN TERMS OF HOW THEY FUNCTION, OR IN TERMS--- Q. NO, IN TERMS OF WHETHER THEY CAN WORK--- A. --- OF WHETHER YOU SHOULD DO ONE OR THE OTHER? Q. --- WHETHER THEY CAN WORK OR NOT? A. I THINK THERE ARE SOME NATURAL SYSTEMS THAT, FOR CERTAIN NUTRIENTS, FUNCTION QUITE WELL. BUT, AS I SAID EARLIER, I'M NOT SURE WETLAND SYSTEMS, AT LEAST IN MY DETERMINATION, IN MY ANALYSIS, THEY ARE NOT VERY EFFECTIVE AT REMOVING PHOSPHORUS, UNLESS YOU TAKE CERTAIN PRECAUTIONS. AND CERTAIN ALTERNATIVES HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT. Q. ALL RIGHT. BUT MY QUESTION ORIGINALLY WAS IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF CONSTRUCTED VERSUS NATURAL. I KNOW YOU SAY THAT NATURAL WORKS IN CERTAIN CASES. A. IN CERTAIN CASES. Q. AND CONSTRUCTED WORKS IN CERTAIN CASES. A. NO, I HAVE NOT--- Q. YOU WON'T SAY THAT. A. WELL, I DON'T -- IT DEPENDS UPON WHAT WORKS. ifm NOT SURE HOW YOU DEFINE WORKS. IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER THEY FUNCTION IN A CERTAIN WAY. DO THEY CONTINUE TO FUNCTION? DO THEY -- WHAT'S THE PERMANENCE OF IT? WHAT TIME FRAME? I JUST WOULD NEED -- YOU GIVE ME SPECIFICS--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 191 Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. --- RELATED TO WHAT WORKS; AND WHAT WORKS FOR ONE, DOESN'T WORK FOR THE OTHER. Q. WELL, LET'S TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SITUATION WE'RE LOOKING AT, THE EVERGLADES. IS IT YOUR OPINION, AS YOU SIT HERE, THAT CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS CAN EFFICIENTLY REMOVE PHOSPHORUS, ASSUMING YOU DO THE THINGS YOU'VE SAID BEFORE, THAT YOU GET THE SIZE RIGHT, AND THE RETENTION TIME RIGHT, AND YOU GET THE WATER DEPTH RIGHT, ALL THOSE FACTORS THAT YOU BELIEVE ARE IMPORTANT. A. WELL, YEAH, THAT'S A POSSIBILITY WITH -- WITH -- WITH ENOUGH RESEARCH TO DO THAT. WE HAVE -- YOU KNOW, THE ENR PROJECT WAS PROPOSED -- I THINK I'VE SAID, FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS, THAT THE ENR PROJECT OR SOME FACSIMILE OF THAT SHOULD BE DONE AND COMPLETED, SOME COMPONENTS OF IT, SO THAT WE COULD DETERMINE SIZING, FLOW RATES, DEPTHS, SO ON. I HAVE SOME -- SOME CONCERNS OF MOVING FORWARD AS A SCIENTIST, WITHOUT THAT INFORMATION--- Q. HAVE YOU--- A. --- SO -- SO, THAT'S, YOU KNOW--- Q. RIGHT. A. --- YOU SAY, WELL, WILL YOU USE ARTIFICIAL OR NOT, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 192 I MEAN--- Q. NO, I'M ASKING--- A. --- I HAVEN'T SEEN THE EVIDENCE OF ANYBODY THAT KNOWS EXACTLY HOW TO DESIGN AN ARTIFICIAL ONE FOR PHOSPHORUS. Q. WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS. YOU SEEM TO HAVE GREAT AMBIVALENCE ABOUT THE STA OR THE FLOWWAY CONCEPT FOR PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL. DO YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF A BETTER WAY TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS, OR STORE PHOSPHORUS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. WELL, I THINK I ACTUALLY PUT IN ONE OF OUR REPORTS THAT PHOSPHORUS, BEING A DIFFICULT ION TO DEAL WITH, ESPECIALLY WITH ANAEROBIC SYSTEMS LIKE WETLANDS, THAT IN FACT -- THAT THERE SHOULD BE A MULTITUDE OF APPROACHES, BMP'S UP FRONT. I'VE RECOMMENDED THOSE TO THE AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY HERE WERE -- I THINK I FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. T LISTED A NUMBER OF POSSIBLE WAYS IN WHICH ONE MIGHT AT LEAST CONSIDER THAT. I THINK THEY'RE NOW BEING CONSIDERED, BUT I THINK -- I'M NOT SURE I'M PUTTING MY EGGS IN ONE BASKET IN TERMS OF HOW TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS. I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUXE I PAGE 193 MULTITUDE OF APPROACHES TO REMOVING PHOSPHORUS, BECAUSE OF -- THE PROBLEM WITH USING ANY WETLANDS, CONSTRUCTED OR NATURAL, IS YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE CONTROL OVER THE ENVIRONMENT, UNLIKE A WASTEWATER TREATMENT SYSTEM, EVEN A SMALLER ONE, WHERE ENGINEERS HAVE A -- FEEL PRETTY GOOD ABOUT IT, BECAUSE THEY CAN SPECIFICALLY CONTROL THIS. A VERY LARGE SYSTEM LIKE THIS, THE DYNAMICS OF IT ARE GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT TO CONTROL. SO, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AS MUCH PHOSPHORUS REMOVED EARLY, AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME OTHER POSSIBLE CONSIDERATIONS. THAT WOULD BE MY PROFESSIONAL OPINION. THERE WOULD BE OTHER WAYS TO DO IT, NOT JUST ONE. SURE, SURE. IN REGARD TO YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY TO USE BMPIS UP FRONT, IN YOUR EARLY MEETINGS WITH THE AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY, SPECIFICALLY MR. WEDGWORTH, OR SOME MEETINGS FOLLOWING THAT WITH OTHER PEOPLE, WERE THOSE THE MEETINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED THIS TYPE OF A REMOVAL SYSTEM, USING BMP'S? A. I DON'T -- AS I SAID, I THINK THE EARLY MEETING WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH, AT THAT TIME, WHEN I CAME TO THE -- TO THE MEETING, THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 194 THAT MEETING WAS TWO. ONE WAS TO INFORM ME -- GEORGE, AS YOU KNOW, CAN GO INTO A FAIRLY LENGTHY DISCUSSION ABOUT HIS VIEWS OF THE SYSTEM, THE WHOLE EVERGLADES, SOUTH FLORIDA. HE GAVE ME AN OVERVIEW OF HIS VIEW OF THE WORLD. AND--- Q. DID HE SHOW YOU HIS MAPS? A. I DONFT REMEMBER SEEING ANY MAPS, BUT I DID HEAR ABOUT HIS -- THE FAMILY HISTORY, SO I GOT A -- I GOT THE COMPLETE PICTURE OF THE -- OF THE FAMILY PORTION OF IT. BUT THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THAT MEETING WAS TO DISCUSS WHETHER OR NOT THE CATTAIL ISSUE WAS THE ONE, I BELIEVE I CAN'T REMEMBER, BUT I BELIEVE I WAS SHOWN A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING OF SOMETHING RELATED TO CATTAIL. I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE IT WAS FROM, BUT I BELIEVE THAT WAS THE -- AND THAT WAS THE FOCUS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT I WOULD -- IF I WAS FAMILIAR WITH CATTAIL? DID I THINK CATTAIL WAS A PROBLEM? AND WHAT WOULD ONE DO ABOUT DETERMINING THIS? AND, SO, I WAS ASKED TO DISCUSS THOSE COMPONENTS NOT -- AT THAT TIME, PHOSPHORUS DID COME UP AS A COMPONENT, AS DID, I THINK, WHO KNOWS HOW MANY OTHER THINGS. BUT THAT WAS THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF THE MEETING. ALL RIGHT. LET ME RETURN TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 195 WITH MR. WEDGWORTH AND THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THESE PROPOSALS TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS AT THE SOURCE, THE BMPIS. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT YOU DID SUGGEST THIS TO THE AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY AS SOMETHING THAT THEY SHOULD CONSIDER. IS THAT RIGHT? A. THAT'S CORRECT, BUT NOT AT THAT TIME. Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN? WHEN DID YOU PROPOSE THAT? A. I COULDN'T TELL YOU THE SPECIFIC DATE, BUT IT OBVIOUSLY WAS AFTER THAT, SO IT WAS SOME -- MAYBE SOMETIME IN 189 TO 190, SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME FRAME. Q. DID YOU PROPOSE RESEARCH TO BE DONE, WHAT BMP'S WOULD BE THE MOST EFFICIENT WITHIN THE EAA FOR REMOVING THE MOST PHOSPHORUS? A. DID I PROPOSE TO DO RESEARCH? Q. WHAT DID -- WHAT DID YOU PROPOSE TO THEM ON BMP'S? A. I SUGGESTED THAT THEY CONSIDER -- SINCE I -- I HAD A FULL PLATE OF RESEARCH, NOT ONLY IN THE EVERGLADES, BUT IN OTHER PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY -- THAT THEY NEEDED TO CONTACT SOME PEOPLE WHO WERE EXPERTS OF BMPRS AND TO CONSIDER PLACING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 196 SOME BMPIS. THAT WOULD BE AN AREA THAT I WOULD SUGGEST THEY WOULD GO INTO, SO I GAVE THEM SOME SUGGESTIONS, AND--- Q. WHAT SUGGESTIONS DID YOU GIVE THEM? A. OF PEOPLE THEY SHOULD CONSIDER CONTACTING. THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE DOING SOME BMP WORK WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, I BELIEVE, AT THAT TIME, WITH IFAS, I BELIEVE. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. THEY PROVIDED ME, I BELIEVE, AND I THINK YOU HAVE IT, SOME COPIES OF SOME OF THE EARLY WORK THAT THEY HAD WORKED ON. I LOOKED AT THAT. THEY ASKED ME TO SORT OF LOOK AT THAT AND SEE WHAT I THOUGHT. AND SO I GAVE THEM SOME NAMES OF PEOPLE THAT I THOUGHT COULD GIVE THEM SOME REALLY GOOD INSIGHTS INTO THE PROBLEM, AND TOLD THEM THAT THEY SHOULD MOVE FORWARD WITH THAT. Q. WHAT NAMES DID YOU GIVE THEM? A. I DON'T REMEMBER ALL OF THEM, BUT I THINK I MENTIONED GILLIAM AND SKAGGS. DR. WENDALL GILLIAM, AND DR. WAYNE SKAGGS WERE TWO PEOPLE. HAVE YOU EVER REVIEWED THEIR -- THEIR TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT REDUCTION THAT THEY'RE PRESENTLY ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE? HAVE YOU--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 197 A. NO. Q. YOU'VE DONE NOTHING WITH THAT? A. NO. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINION AS TO WHETHER IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE FOR THE AGRICULTURAL AREA TO REMOVE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT? A. DO I HAVE AN OPINION? Q. YES. A. I THINK IT WOULD BE HARD, WITHOUT REVIEWING DOCUMENTS AND LOOKING AT THAT, TO COME UP WITH A SPECIFIC NUMBER. I HAVE NOT -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU, MY PLATE'S BEEN PRETTY FULL, SO I HAVE NOT REALLY DONE MUCH FOCUSING ON THE EAA, OTHER THAN GIVING WHAT I JUST TOLD YOU, THE FACT THAT THEY SHOULD MOVE IN THAT AREA. I HAVE REVIEWED -- AND I DIDNFT PUT IN MY REPORT -- SOME POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVES THAT I THINK PEOPLE ARE FAIRLY FAMILIAR WITH, BUT I DID NOT DESIGN SPECIFIC RESEARCH PROJECTS, NOR DID I OUTLINE PROJECTS, NOR HAVE I REVIEWED PROJECTS FOR THEM IN SPECIFIC DETAIL, WITH A COUPLE OF EXCEPTIONS. Q. WELL, WHAT ARE THE EXCEPTIONS? YOU KNEW I WOULD ASK. YOU MIGHT AS WELL HAVE TOLD ME. A. WELL, I CAN'T--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 198 Q. UNLESS I FORGOT. A. --- CAN'T ANSWER UNTIL YOU -- I SAT IN ON A COUPLE OF THE SAGE MEETINGS OVER THE LAST YEAR OR SO, AS SORT OF A MOUSE IN THE CORNER, WHEN, IN FACT, PRESENTATIONS WERE BEING MADE BY VARIOUS PEOPLE ON BMPIS. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. I REVIEWED A SMALL PROPOSAL BY DR. WILLIAM PATRICK, WHO PROPOSED A CALCIUM STUDY. I THOUGHT IT WAS QUITE GOOD. I REC--- Q. DID YOU RECOMMEND DR. PATRICK TO THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, OR ANY OF THE INDUSTRY? A. THEY -- I THINK THEY MAY HAVE ALREADY KNOWN ABOUT HIM. I CAN'T REMEMBER IF THEY ASKED ME. IF THEY HAD ASKED ME, I WOULD HAVE SAID HE IS A -- HE WAS AN EXCELLENT PERSON FOR THEM TO CONSIDER WORKING WITH. HE'S A WORLD RENOWNED PERSON. Q. WHAT DID YOU THINK OF HIS CALCIUM STUDY AS A METHOD FOR REMOVING PHOSPHORUS? A. WELL, I ONLY SAW HIS -- YOU MEAN THE PROPOSAL? Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, I THOUGHT IT WAS WORTHY OF MERIT. I RECOMMENDED THAT THEY FUND IT, BECAUSE IT WAS AN AREA THAT I THOUGHT SHOWED SOME PROMISE, AND THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 199 HE WAS, AND HIS LABORATORY AT LSU, WERE EMINENTLY QUALIFIED TO DO THAT STUDY. Q. YOU SAID THERE WERE, WITH SOME EXCEPTIONS, WHAT WERE THE -- WAS THAT THE ONLY EXCEPTION OR WERE THERE MORE? MR. BURGESS: ARE WE ON BMP ALTERNATIVES? WITNESSES: YES. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? MS. PONZOLI: WELL, HE WAS RECOMMENDING PEOPLE TO THE INDUSTRY, AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAD ANY MORE NAMES OR NOT. MR. REID: NO, THE QUESTION--- MR. BURGESS: NO, NO, I DON'T THINK SO. MS. PONZOLI: I'M SORRY. AM I ON THE WRONG QUESTION. MR. REID: NO, THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED WAS DID HE BELIEVE THEY COULD SUBSTANTIALLY RAISE THE LEVEL ABOVE TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT, AND HE SAID HE COULDN'T COME UP WITH AN EXACT NUMBER--- MS. PONZOLI: RIGHT. MR. REID: --- BUT HE STILL HASN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THEY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME I PAGE 200 COULD RAISE IT MORE THAN TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT. MR. GREEN: LET ME ASK A POINT OF CLARIFICATION. I DON'T MIND YOU PURSUING THIS, BUT I MISSED THE FIRST FEW MINUTES. IF WEFRE STIPULATING THAT ALL OBJECTIONS EXCEPT TO THE FORM OF QUESTIONS ARE RESERVED, AND I DON'T MIND, BUT IF WE HAVE TO OBJECT THEN WE MAY HAVE TO INTERPOSE OBJECTIONS, WHAT DID YOU ALL DECIDE ABOUT THAT, SUZAN? MR. REID: THE RULES SAY -- DONFT THE RULES -- THE RULES SAY WHAT THE RULES SAY ABOUT THAT. MS. PONZOLI: I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE RULES SAY, BILL. I MEAN, YOU USUALLY LIKE TO PUT IT ON THE RECORD. I THINK IT--- MR. GREEN: SO, WE ALL AGREE THAT WE'RE RESERVING EVERYTHING BUT FORM? MS. PONZOLI: YEAH. MR. GREEN: OKAY, FINE. GO AHEAD. THANK YOU. WITNESS: NOW WHERE ARE WE? MR. BURGESS: WE NEED A PENDING QUESTION.