STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF ) FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural ) Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038 ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040 ) and ) ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) )________________________ and ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) OF and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) )DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON Petitioners, )________________________ ) vs. ) ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an Agency of the State ) of Florida, ) ) Respondent, ) ) and ) ) THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) FLORIDA, THE FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, THE ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) THE FLORIDA AUDUBON SOCIETY, and ) THE SIERRA CLUB, ) Respondent-Intervenors. ) ___________________________________) AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA MARCH 29, 1994 - APRIL 1, 1994 REPORTED BY: CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1171 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PETITIONERS: SUGARCANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE MR. RICK J. BURGESS OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC. EARL, BLANK, KAVANAUGH AND WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC. & STOTTS, P.A. MR. WILLIAM H. GREEN ONE BISCAYNE TOWER HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS SUITE 3636 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET TWO SOUTH BISCAYNE BLVD. POST OFFICE BOX 6526 MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314 TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000 TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500 FOR RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: FOR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MR. MICHAEL W. REED MANAGEMENT DISTRICT: ASSISTANT CHIEF MR. R. BENJAMINE REID U.S. DEPT. OF JUSTICE POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH ENVIRONMENTAL AND NATURAL & KAUFMAN, LTD. RESOURCES DIVISION 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL GENERAL LITIGATION SECTION CENTER POST OFFICE BOX 663 100 S.E. SECOND STREET WASHINGTON, D.C. 20044-0663 MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TELEPHONE: (202) 272-6080 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050 FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY: MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN KING, WALKER, LAMBE & CRABTREE 3708 MAYFAIR STREET POST OFFICE BOX 51549 DURHAM, N.C. 27717 TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411 ALSO PRESENT: DR. MARK D. MAFFEI DR. RONALD D. JONES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1172 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X DEPONENT-DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON - 3/29-4/1/94 EXAMINATION: PAGES BY MR. BENJAMINE REID 1173 BY MR. MICHAEL REED 1835 BY MR. BENJAMINE REID 1957 BY MR. WILLIAM GREEN 2012 BY MR. RICK BURGESS 2013 BY MR. BENJAMINE REID 2015 ------------------------------------------------------- E X H I B I T S I N D E X NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED (EXHIBITS NUMBER #1 - #26 WERE MARKED DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON, MARCH 29, 1994 THROUGH APRIL 1, 1994, DURHAM, N.C.) ------------------------------------------------------- SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT (VOLUME III) 2017 CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER (VOLUME III) 2018 DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1173 STIPULATIONS ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, ENVIRONMENTAL AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION, GENERAL LITIGATION SECTION, WASHINGTON, D.C., THE CROSS DEPOSITION OF DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 9:00 A.M. ON MARCH 29, 1994, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE EXECUTIVE BOARD ROOM, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE CAROL S. YOUNG, A NOTARY PUBLIC. THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED. - - - - - - - - - - - WHEREUPON, CURTIS J. RICHARDSON, Ph.D., HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: EXAMINATION BY MR. REID: Q. STATE YOUR NAME AND YOUR ADDRESS, PLEASE, SIR. A. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON, 717 ANDERSON STREET IN DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA. Q. AND BY WHOM ARE YOU EMPLOYED? A. DUKE UNIVERSITY. Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR POSITION AT DUKE UNIVERSITY? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1174 A. I'M A PROFESSOR OF RESOURCE ECOLOGY, AND DIRECTOR OF THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER. Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR ACADEMIC STANDING AT DUKE? A. A PROFESSOR. Q. AND WITH TENURE? A. WITH TENURE. Q. AT THE PRESENT TIME, ON A DAILY BASIS, OR WEEKLY OR MONTHLY, CAN YOU GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT YOUR ACTIVITY WOULD BE? A. WHAT MY ACTIVITY WOULD BE? I TEACH -- WELL, I TEACH PART-TIME, AS PART OF MY APPOINTMENT, GRADUATE -- WE'RE A GRADUATE SCHOOL ONLY, SO I TEACH SOME GRADUATE COURSES. IT DEPENDS ON THE SEMESTER. FOR EXAMPLE, THIS SEMESTER, I AM TEACHING A SEMINAR, ADVANCED STUDIES IN WETLANDS ECOLOGY AND MANAGEMENT. I DIRECT THE CENTER'S -- WETLAND CENTER'S DAILY ACTIVITIES, WHICH INCLUDES A STAFF OF APPROXIMATELY TWENTY PEOPLE. AND GRADUATE STUDENTS -- I MEET WITH GRADUATE STUDENTS ON A DAILY BASIS. I SPEND A PORTION OF MY TIME EACH WEEK GOING THROUGH ADMINISTRATIVE DOCUMENTS AND I ALSO SIT ON THE UNIVERSITY-WIDE PROMOTION AND TENURE COMMITTEE FOR THE UNIVERSITY SO THAT I, ALONG WITH ELEVEN OTHER INDIVIDUALS, DETERMINE WHO IS PROMOTED AND WHO IS NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1175 AT THE UNIVERSITY. AND I SPEND A CERTAIN FRACTION OF MY TIME WRITING, DOING RESEARCH, ANALYZING DATA, REVIEWING DOCUMENTS. Q. SO, THIS SEMESTER, YOU'RE TEACHING ONE COURSE, A SEMINAR? A. ONE SEMINAR. Q. AND HOW MANY STUDENTS WOULD BE IN THAT? A. FIFTEEN. Q. AND WHAT DID YOU TEACH LAST SEMESTER? A. I TAUGHT APPLIED ECOLOGY AND ECOSYSTEM MANAGEMENT. Q. WAS THAT A GRADUATE SEMINAR, AS WELL? A. NO, THAT WAS A GRADUATE COURSE. Q. A COURSE. OKAY. IS IT -- HAS YOUR SCHEDULE BEEN SUCH THAT YOU'VE GENERALLY TAUGHT ABOUT ONE COURSE PER SEMESTER IN RECENT TIMES? A. IT DEPENDS. I'D SAY ONE COURSE, OR A SEMINAR. I HAVE SEMESTERS OFF; AS THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER, I HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY. I HAVE PEOPLE IN MY CENTER WHO CAN COVER COURSES, DEPENDING UPON WHETHER I'M WRITING GRANTS OR DOING THINGS. Q. DO YOU OFFICIALLY SUPERVISE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF GRADUATE STUDENTS AT ANY ONE TIME? A. I HAVE NO DESIGNATED NUMBER, BUT I DO HAVE A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1176 NUMBER OF GRADUATE STUDENTS THAT I SUPERVISE. Q. ARE YOU ALWAYS INVOLVED IN SUPERVISING GRADUATE STUDENTS? A. YES. Q. OKAY. HOW MANY WOULD YOU TYPICALLY SUPERVISE? A. MASTER'S STUDENTS, SEVEN OR EIGHT MASTER'S STUDENTS; AND Ph.D. STUDENTS, IT VARIES, TWO TO FIVE. Q. AND, FOR INSTANCE, RIGHT NOW, WHAT DO YOU HAVE; HOW MANY? A. WELL, I HAVE THREE MASTER'S STUDENTS WHO ARE GRADUATING THIS SPRING; AND, I THINK, FOUR OTHERS THAT I AM ADVISING WHO ARE IN THE FIRST YEAR; AND I HAVE THREE Ph.D. STUDENTS THAT I'M ACTIVELY WORKING WITH. Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR COURSE THAT YOU'RE TEACHING -- YOUR SEMINAR, I'M SORRY, THIS SEMESTER, ARE THERE COURSE MATERIALS THAT YOU USE THAT ARE PUBLISHED? A. COURSE MATERIALS THAT ARE USED THAT I PUBLISHED. DO YOU MEAN DO I -- THAT I PERSONALLY--- Q. NO, THAT ARE PUBLISHED, IN OTHER WORDS, AS OPPOSED TO HANDOUTS THAT YOU MIGHT GIVE. A. I USE BOTH. I USE ARTICLES AND I USE HANDOUTS. Q. OKAY. IS THERE A BOOK? A. NO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1177 Q. ARE YOU COVERING ANY PORTION IN THIS COURSE THIS SEMESTER -- I KEEP CALLING IT A COURSE. I UNDERSTAND YOU -- IT'S A SEMINAR -- ARE YOU COVERING ANYTHING RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES OR SIMILAR ECOSYSTEMS? A. WE HAD ONE LECTURE ON THE EVERGLADES, AND THE WHOLE COURSE IS ON WETLANDS, SO THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WETLANDS THAT WOULD HAVE SOME SIMILAR CHARACTERISTICS. Q. DID YOU GIVE THAT LECTURE, OR DID SOMEONE ELSE COME IN AND GIVE THAT LECTURE? A. I GAVE THAT LECTURE. Q. AND GIVE ME JUST AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT THAT LECTURE WAS ABOUT. A. I BASICALLY, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT -- IT WAS SEVERAL MONTHS AGO -- BUT THE FIRST PART OF THE LECTURE WAS AN OVERVIEW OF THE ECOLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES, SORT OF THE LANDSCAPE VIEW OF THE EVERGLADES; SOME OF THE CONTROLLING FACTORS THAT MAKE UP THE ECOLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEMS AND HOW THEY -- HOW THE EVERGLADES SUCCESSION IS DESCRIBED; WHAT FEATURES, GEOLOGIC AND ECOLOGICAL FEATURES COMPRISE THE EVERGLADES. THAT WAS THE FIRST PART OF IT. THE SECOND PART WAS RELATED TO OUR STUDIES, PRETTY MUCH, THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING IN THE EVERGLADES. AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1178 THAT WAS AN OVERVIEW OF THE AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF, THE HYDROLOGIC CHANGES IN THE EVERGLADES, A LITTLE BIT ON CLIMATE. WE TALKED -- WE TALKED A BIT ABOUT PHOSPHORUS STORAGE AND SAMPLING TECHNIQUES, DETERMINED THAT. AND THEN WE TALKED ABOUT SOME MANAGEMENT SCENARIOS FOR THE EVERGLADES, AND SOME OUTCOME OF THAT. AND THEN I BELIEVE THAT'S ABOUT IT. Q. WHAT MANAGEMENT -- TELL ME THE MANAGEMENT SCENARIOS YOU DISCUSSED. A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE I EXACTLY REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THEM, BUT I BELIEVE WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT ARE THE MAJOR PROBLEMS RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES, AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE HYDROLOGY, AND THE HYDROLOGIC BUDGET. WE DISCUSSED WHAT WE APPROXIMATED TO BE A PROBLEM OF THE DISCHARGE OF WATER PRIMARILY FROM THE LAKE OKEECHOBEE REGION, WHERE APPROXIMATELY FIFTY PERCENT OF IT'S MOVE TO THE ATLANTIC OCEAN OR THE GULF. WE SHOWED A SLIDE OF THAT, SHOWING THE WATER, PARTIAL WATER BUDGET; HOW MUCH WATER IS MOVING DOWNWARDS THROUGH THE EAA, WCA'S, DOWN INTO THE PARK; AND DISCUSSED THE NEED FOR CHANGES IN THE -- IN THE CLASS, WE GOT INTO A DISCUSSION ON RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES AND WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO RESTORE THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1179 EVERGLADES TO SOME SEMBLANCE, ALBEIT, IT WOULD NOT BE RESTORED BACK TO WHAT IT WAS. THEN WE BASICALLY DISCUSSED WHAT IT WOULD TAKE AND WHAT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WERE RELATED TO THAT. WE -- THAT WAS ONE OF THE MAJOR DISCUSSIONS. WE ALSO DISCUSSED THE PHOSPHORUS ISSUE, IN TERMS OF IT, WE ALSO DISCUSSED THE CATTAIL ISSUE; AND WE TALKED ABOUT NUISANCE SPECIES AND A FEW THINGS LIKE THAT AND WHAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN THERE. Q. IS THERE -- IS THIS LECTURE WRITTEN, OR IS THERE AN OUTLINE OF THIS LECTURE? A. NO, THIS IS FOR A SERIES OF SLIDES THAT -- OF WHICH I HAVE, I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T COUNT, FIFTEEN HUNDRED, TWO THOUSAND SLIDES ON THE EVERGLADES, AND I JUST PULL THEM OUT OF THE BOOK AND USE THEM AS I NEED THEM. Q. WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES, YOU SAID -- YOU MADE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN -- TO ITS, I THINK, ORIGINAL CONDITION OR SOME SEMBLANCE OF ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION. IN YOUR MIND, WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND TO BE THE RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES? WHAT DOES THAT ENTAIL? A. WELL, IT PROBABLY ENTAILS A LOT OF THINGS TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I THINK -- I BELIEVE IN THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1180 LECTURE I DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT THE PROBLEM WITH RESTORATION OF ANY SYSTEM WAS THAT, QUITE OFTEN, IF IT'S A SMALL SCALE SYSTEM, YOU WANT TO HAVE A REFERENCE TO GO BACK TO. AND THE EVERGLADES HAVE BEEN SO HIGHLY ALTERED, THAT IT'S DIFFICULT TO FIND WHAT THE REFERENCE SYSTEM SHOULD BE, AND--- Q. WOULD THAT BE -- LET ME JUST INTERRUPT YOU WHILE I'M THINKING ABOUT IT. WOULD THAT BE, FOR INSTANCE, SAYING WE'RE GOING TO RETURN IT TO THE WAY IT WAS IN 1853, OR THE WAY IT WAS PRE-PROJECT, OR--- A. NO, THE WAY I VIEW RESTORATION, AS I SAID, ONCE -- THERE ARE DIFFERENT -- DIFFERENT WAYS TO LOOK AT RESTORATION. AS AN ECOLOGIST, I TALK PRIMARILY TO MY STUDENTS ABOUT FUNCTIONS, ECOSYSTEM FUNCTIONS, AND TRYING TO RESTORE AND MAINTAIN AS MANY OF THOSE FUNCTIONS AS POSSIBLE. AND I THINK THE CONCEPT IN RETURNING IT BACK TO WHAT IT WAS IN 1800 IS A BIT NAIVE, FOR MANY REASONS WHICH--- Q. WELL, HAVE YOU HEARD ANYBODY SAY THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO? A. I'VE HAD PEOPLE TELL ME THAT. Q. OKAY. WHO, PARTICULARLY? A. JOE PODSGAR, OR WHATEVER HIS NAME IS, PODGOR. Q. OH, OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1181 A. OTHER PEOPLE -- THAT WAS -- I'VE HEARD SOME OF THE EXTREME GREEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THAT. Q. THIS HAS BEEN FROM, SHALL WE SAY, THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY? A. YES. Q. IS THAT A FAIR WAY TO PUT IT? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU HEARD ANYBODY, SHALL WE SAY, AN AUTHORITY, WHO HAS SUGGESTED IT SHOULD BE RETURNED TO THE 1853 CONDITION? A. NO. Q. OKAY, YOU WERE TALKING -- I INTERRUPTED YOU. YOU WERE TELLING ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FUNCTIONS. A. YEAH, THE WAY I LOOK AT RESTORATION IS TRY TO DETERMINE THE KEY FUNCTIONS FOR AN ECOSYSTEM. AND THESE MIGHT INCLUDE PRODUCTIVITY AND DECOMPOSITION, COMMUNITY HABITAT STRUCTURE, AND SOME ASPECT OF BIOGEOCHEMICAL CYCLING, AND BASICALLY TRY TO LOOK AT THE MAJOR CONTROLLING FACTOR FOR WETLANDS THAT CONTROLS THESE; AND THAT, OF COURSE, IS -- IN ALL WETLAND SYSTEMS -- IS HYDROLOGY, AND ANY OTHER FACTORS THAT MIGHT BE BROUGHT TO BEAR ON THAT. SO, ESSENTIALLY, WE LOOK AT WHAT THE FUNCTIONAL GOALS ARE AND THEN TRY TO REMOVE BACK TO THAT, SOMEWHERE NEAR THAT STATE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1182 Q. ALL RIGHT, IN THE -- SPECIFICALLY IN THIS CASE, ARE YOU ULTIMATELY GOING TO BE EXPRESSING OPINIONS IN THIS CONTEXT, THAT IS, WHAT FUNCTIONS SHOULD BE RESTORED WITH REGARD TO THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, I'LL PROBABLY GIVE SOME OPINIONS, YES, IN TERMS OF WHAT I THINK ARE SOME GOALS THAT MIGHT BE LOOKED AT, AND ALSO SOME RESEARCH THAT PROBABLY SHOULD BE DONE TO DESCRIBE THAT. Q. IS ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF YOUR ONGOING PROJECT TO ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE THE BEST WAY TO RESTORE THE EVERGLADES? A. THAT'S THE LONG-TERM GOAL, IS ESSENTIALLY TO OBTAIN ENOUGH SCIENTIFIC DATA TO TRY TO COME UP WITH SOME ANSWERS TOWARDS RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES, RATHER THAN JUST LOOK AT OBSERVATION. Q. AT THIS POINT, DO YOU HAVE -- STRIKE THAT. AT THIS POINT, ARE YOU ABLE TO TESTIFY TO MORE THAN POSSIBILITIES THAT WOULD REQUIRE ADDITIONAL RESEARCH IN THAT CONTEXT? A. WELL, I THINK WE HAVE, YES, AFTER A FEW YEARS, I THINK WE HAVE SOME INSIGHTS AS TO WHAT--- Q. ARE THESE -- IS IT FAIR FOR ME TO THINK OF THESE IN TERMS OF THESE FUNCTIONS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1183 A. IN A GENERAL CONTEXT. I CAN'T SAY WE FOCUSED ALL OUR RESEARCH IN EVERY ONE OF THOSE FUNCTIONS--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT WE HAVE -- WE HAVE LOOKED AT THAT. OUR PRIMARY OBJECTIVE OF THAT -- OF OUR RESEARCH PROJECT WAS STATED VERY CLEARLY IN ALL -- IN THE BEGINNING OF ALL OF OUR ANNUAL REPORTS, IS TO LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS AND HYDROPERIOD ON THE EVERGLADES COMMUNITIES. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME THE FUNCTIONS THAT ARE -- THAT YOU'VE ALREADY CONSIDERED, AND YOU FEEL YOU HAVE ADEQUATE BASIS FOR SAYING, THESE ARE THE FUNCTIONS THAT I THINK WE NEED TO RESTORE, IF WE'RE GOING TO ADOPT THE RICHARDSON VERSION OF THE RESTORED EVERGLADES? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE THERE'S A RICHARDSON VERSION. I THINK OUR--- Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, NOT EXACTLY, I MEAN. Q. WELL, YOU'RE HERE, AND YOU'RE THE EXPERT, AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE GIVING OPINIONS, SO I ASSUME THEY'RE YOUR OPINIONS; THAT YOU PERSONALLY HOLD THESE OPINIONS. SO, MY QUESTION IS, ASSUMING THAT SOMEBODY DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO ADOPT YOUR VIEW OF EVERGLADES RESTORATION DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1184 -- YOU'VE TOLD ME THAT YOU THINK WE SHOULD MAKE REFERENCE TO CERTAIN FUNCTIONS, AND SO I WANT TO KNOW, GIVEN THAT VIEW, OR WITHIN THAT VIEW, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THOSE FUNCTIONS WOULD BE. AND I'D LIKE, FIRST, TO TALK ABOUT THE ONES THAT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE SAYING YOU'VE ALREADY STUDIED, AND YOU -- THESE ARE THE ONES. A. WELL, THE FIRST ONE WE TRIED TO LOOK AT WAS, AS I SAY, COMMUNITY HABITAT. WE TRIED TO LOOK AT THOSE, AND LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF HYDROLOGY AND NUTRIENTS ON THIS. AND IT WAS -- IT WAS PRIMARILY TO FOCUS ON WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, PHOSPHORUS, NUTRIENTS OR HYDROPERIOD SPECIFICALLY RESULTED IN A CHANGE IN THE HABITAT. PRIMARILY THERE, THE HYPOTHESIS WAS THAT INCREASE IN NUTRIENTS RESULTED IN AN INVASION OF CATTAIL, LET'S SAY. THAT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST STUDIES WE UNDERTOOK. THAT WAS OUR FERTILIZER STUDY THAT WE DID. Q. SO, IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU'RE MORE COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THESE KINDS OF OPINIONS IN THE SAME MANNER IN WHICH THEY'RE DISCUSSED IN YOUR ANNUAL REPORTS; THAT IS, GOING THROUGH YOUR VARIOUS STUDIES, AND EACH STUDY WOULD HAVE A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND YOU COULD TELL ME WHETHER YOU FINISHED IT OR NOT, AND WHETHER YOUR PURPOSE HAS BEEN ACHIEVED. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1185 A. WELL, I THINK IN THAT CONTEXT, YES. I MEAN, IN TERMS OF FORMULATING AN OVERALL RESTORATION GOAL. IT WAS AN ONGOING THING, AND I'M NOT -- I THINK WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO LEAD SOME THINGS IN THE RIGHT WAY. I MEAN, VERY CLEARLY, FROM MY ANALYSIS OF THE DISTRICT'S DATA, LOOKING AT THE AREA, FLYING OVER IT, SAMPLING FOR FIVE YEARS, TAKING, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF TRANSECTS AND SOIL SAMPLES AND SO FORTH, AND LOOKING AT THE SPECIES THERE, AND THEN OVERLAYING THAT WITH ACTUAL EXPERIMENTS, I MEAN, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT WHAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING, AND WHAT I'VE SAID ALL -- WHAT I THOUGHT WAS THE CASE ALL ALONG, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT HYDROPERIOD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN CONTROLLING THE EVERGLADES. AND THE LACK OF WATER, FROM TWO -- FOR TWO REASONS, OR SEVERAL REASONS, HAS BEEN A DRAMATIC STRESSOR ON THE EVERGLADES SYSTEM, ALBEIT, THE EVERGLADES IS A VERY STRESSED SYSTEM WHEN IT'S UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS. IT'S A FAIRLY HARSH ENVIRONMENT TO TRY TO SURVIVE IN, IF YOU'RE AN ORGANISM. Q. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE MORE ABOUT YOUR POINT OF REFERENCE, AS YOU CALLED IT, WITH REGARD TO RESTORATION. CAN YOU TELL ME TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE EVERGLADES SHOULD BE RESTORED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1186 A. TO WHAT THEY SHOULD BE RESTORED? Q. YEAH, TO WHAT SHOULD -- YOU'VE TOLD ME YOU DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BE RESTORED TO THE CONDITION THEY WERE IN, IN 1853, SO WE'VE -- THAT'S CLEAR. A. WELL, I DON'T -- I DIDN'T SAY THAT THEY SHOULDN'T BE. I SAID, I DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE. Q. FAIR ENOUGH. SO, I'M TRYING TO GET A--- A. BETTER FEEL? Q. ---I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WOULD -- HOW YOU WOULD DESCRIBE THAT POINT, AT WHICH YOU WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH RESTORATION. AND I THOUGHT YOU TOLD ME THAT IT'S -- ONE WAY TO DESCRIBE THIS WAS WITH REFERENCE TO FUNCTIONS. SO, I WAS KIND OF ASKING--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. A. SURE. Q. I'M NOT SURE THAT'S BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT IT. A. WELL, IT -- YOU KNOW, WE COULD DO IT THAT WAY. I HAVEN'T, AT THIS MOMENT, COMPILED ALL THE PIECES IN THAT PARTICULAR FRAMEWORK, BUT THAT'S SOME OF THE ASPECTS THAT WE HAVE. I MEAN, MY -- THE RESTORATION GOAL THAT I SEE, IS TO, AS I SAID, YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE A -- THOSE FUNCTIONS WOULD GIVE YOU SOME IDEA. IN OTHER WORDS, IF, LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1187 SAWGRASS PRODUCTIVITY, OR THEIR STAND DENSITY OR WHATEVER, DISAPPEARED OR WAS VERY, VERY LOW, COMPARED TO WHAT YOU CONSIDER A REFERENCE BASE -- YOU COULD FIND SOME SITES THAT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED REPRESENTATIVE -- THEN, IN FACT, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD COMPARE THAT TO THE REGIONS THAT WERE CONSIDERED THE REFERENCE AND DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THEY'VE REACHED THAT COMPONENT. YOU COULD LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, MACROINVERTEBRATE DENSITIES. YOU COULD LOOK AT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT COMPONENTS AND TRY TO DETERMINE THESE. Q. AND TO DO THAT, YOU'D HAVE TO FIND SOME BASELINE AREAS. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY? A. RIGHT, BUT IT WOULD NOT BE -- THE DIFFICULTY THERE IS THAT THE EVERGLADES IS NOT ONE UNIFORM PIECE. AND, SO, IF YOU WENT WAY TO THE SOUTH IN THE PARK, AND TRIED TO USE THAT AS THE STANDARD FOR THE NORTH, YOU WOULD BE IN VERY SAD SHAPE, BECAUSE THE NORTHERN PART OF THE EVERGLADES AND THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE EVERGLADES WERE NEVER THE SAME. I MEAN, THE NORTHERN PART, SOUTH OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, HAD THE DEEPEST PEAT, THE RICHEST SOILS, A LOT OF THE -- THERE WAS A LOT OF PHOSPHORUS, BY COMPARISON, STORED IN THE NORTH, UNDER HISTORICAL CONDITIONS, AS OVERWASHED FROM THE LAKE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1188 SO, YOU GO FROM TEN TO FIFTEEN FEET OF PEAT TO THE NORTH, ALL THE WAY DOWN TO TWO, THREE INCHES IN LIMESTONE OUTCROP. SO, YOU HAVE TO FIND A REFERENCE, AND I THINK IT WOULD ALMOST BE A REGIONAL. Q. AND YOU HAVE THE EVERGLADES, IN YOUR OWN MIND, DIVIDED INTO REGIONS? A. PRETTY MUCH. Q. AND TELL ME WHAT THOSE REGIONS ARE. A. WELL, I HAVE THE LOXAHATCHEE REGION, WHICH IS THE -- WHICH IS A VERY DIFFERENT AREA, PROBABLY ONE OF THE MORE UNIQUE AREAS OF THE EVERGLADES IN THE SENSE THAT IT'S ACIDIC, WHERE MOST OF THE OTHER PARTS OF THE EVERGLADES THAT I HAVE SEEN ARE BASIC. IT'S -- AND HAS BEEN, AS FAR AS I CAN DETERMINE, FOR -- OH, IT COULD BE A THOUSAND YEARS OR MORE -- ALMOST A RAINFALL DRIVEN SYSTEM, EXCEPT WHEN YOU PUT THE DIKES AROUND IT AND START ADDING WATER TO IT. IT'S ON A TOPOGRAPHIC HIGH, AS FAR AS THE CENTER OF IT, AT LEAST. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S DOMED UP. IT'S A RESULT OF POLLUTIFICATION. AT ONE TIME, THAT WAS, ACCORDING TO THE GEOLOGIC RECORDS, A BOWL OR BASIN, AND THE PEAT BUILT UP; AND, ACTUALLY, IT'S THE HIGHEST EXISTING PORTION RIGHT NOW ON THE LANDSCAPE, WHICH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1189 MEANS WATER HITS THE TOP AND IT RUNS OUTWARD; CREATES A HYDRAULIC HEAD; AND SO, THEREFORE, THAT SYSTEM IS QUITE DIFFERENT IN ITS CHEMISTRIES; A LOT LESS CALCIUM AND SO FORTH; A LOWER ACIDITY THAN IN THE OTHER AREAS, LIKE TWO, THREE, AND THE PARK. Q. OKAY. A. DO YOU WANT ME TO DESCRIBE THE OTHERS? Q. YEAH, WERE YOU THROUGH WITH LOXAHATCHEE? A. AND, SO, LOXAHATCHEE IS SORT OF AN OMBROTROPHIC, NUTRIENT-POOR, RAINFALL DRIVEN SYSTEM, EXCEPT FOR WHERE THEY PUMP WATER AROUND THE PERIPHERY. Q. JUST ONE QUESTION ABOUT THAT. WHEN YOU SAY RAINFALL-DRIVEN SYSTEM, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, BECAUSE IT'S THE HIGHEST POINT IN THE LANDSCAPE, AT LEAST PRESENTLY IN THE CENTER, AND SINCE WATER GENERALLY DOESN'T RUN UPHILL, THE ONLY WATER IT HAS RECEIVED, AND ACTUALLY SHOULD BE RECEIVING IS STRICTLY FROM RAINFALL. Q. OH, YOU MEAN AS OPPOSED TO FLOW? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY, I UNDERSTAND. WHEREAS LOWER AREAS OF THE EVERGLADES, PRE-PROJECT--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---WOULD HAVE RECEIVED WATER FROM FLOW AS WELL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1190 AS RAINFALL? A. CORRECT. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. A. AND I'M NOT SAYING EVERY INCH OF THE LOXAHATCHEE DIDN'T RECEIVE SOME FLOW. I'M SAYING THAT THE CENTER PORTION OF THAT IS MUCH -- WELL, IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH, SIX INCHES OR A FOOT OR TWO FEET OR THREE FEET. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DISTANCE, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY ONE WHERE ALL THE EVIDENCE SHOWS, THE CORPS SHOW THAT, AND EVERYTHING -- AND THE PA SHOWS THAT -- THAT, IN FACT, IT'S SIMPLY SURVIVING ON RAINFALL. AND IF ONE WANTED TO RESTORE THAT PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES TO WHAT IT WAS, ONE WOULD SIMPLY LET IT HAVE RAINFALL, PERIOD. THAT WOULD BE IT. Q. YOU MEAN, GET RID OF THE DIKES AND GET RID OF THE CANALS? A. WELL, I -- THE DIKES AND CANALS ARE THERE FOR OTHER PURPOSES, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IN TERMS OF FLOOD CONTROL AND HURRICANE PROTECTION AND WATER SUPPLY AND SO FORTH. BUT IF THE GOAL IS TO RESTORE THE -- THAT PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES, IT WOULD BE MY OPINION THAT THE LOXAHATCHEE SHOULD BE GIVEN, PRETTY MUCH, JUST RAINFALL AND LET IT BE. Q. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1191 A. NOW, I HAVEN'T COMPLETED ALL THE ANALYSIS ON THAT, BUT THAT WOULD PRETTY MUCH WHAT THE EVIDENCE INDICATES. IF THE GOAL WAS TO RESTORE IT AS CLOSE TO NATURAL AS IT COULD BE, IT PROBABLY SHOULD NOT BE. I'VE RECOMMENDED THIS BEFORE, ACTUALLY TO SOME DIFFERENT GROUPS, I THINK BEFORE SOME BOARD MEETINGS. Q. THE NEXT ONE? A. WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A IS AN AREA THAT HAS SOME OF THE SAME PEAT, LOXAHATCHEE PEAT WHICH WAS AN AQUATIC-TYPE SYSTEM, AND SOME SAWGRASS SOUTH OF THE LOXAHATCHEE, OR WATER CONSERVATION AREA 1. IT IS THE AREA THAT HAS BEEN RECEIVING A FAIR AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN WATER, AND, RIGHT NOW, IS ALMOST USED AS A MIXING ZONE, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL. IT'S SORT OF IN THE MIDDLE, AND HAS BEEN SINCE THE INTERACTION PLAN IN '79. IT HAS RECEIVED, FOR OSCILLATING AMOUNTS, PULSES OF WATER AND NUTRIENTS. AND SO, THAT ZONE, MORE THAN ANY HAS -- THAT PARTICULAR SORT OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA HAS -- IT'S THE MOST DISTURBED SYSTEM, BY FAR, THAT I'VE SEEN OF THE EVERGLADES. IT HAS SUFFERED FROM A PERIOD OF OVER TEN YEARS OF RAISED WATER LEVELS WHERE IT'S TWO TO THREE FEET DEEP. THEN IT HAS HAD THE WATER TABLES DROPPED TO THE SURFACE, AND THEN A DROUGHT HIT, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1192 THEN WATER HAS BEEN PUMPED IN THERE ON A PULSING BASIS FOR THIRTY ODD YEARS. AND AFTER '79, THEY'VE SORT OF DOUBLED THE LOAD OF NUTRIENTS GOING INTO THAT SITE, YOU KNOW, SINCE THEY COULD NO LONGER PUMP INTO OKEECHOBEE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, BUT ACCORDING TO THE IAP AGREEMENT. SO, THAT SYSTEM, NOW, IS PROBABLY THE MOST DISTURBED OF ALL OF THE SYSTEMS DUE TO ITS HYDROLOGY AND NUTRIENTS. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THE GREAT INFLUX OF NUTRIENTS RESULTED FROM THE IAP? A. NOT THE -- I SAY "THE GREAT." I'D SAY THERE WAS A DEFINITE INCREASE AFTER THAT PERIOD. MY RECOLLECTION OF THE RECORDS WERE THAT, BEFORE THAT, WE WERE TALKING -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE NUMBERS -- BUT I DO REMEMBER SOMETHING FROM SOME OF THE 10 STRUCTURES OF TWENTY -- MAYBE TWENTY METRIC TONS, LET'S SAY, OF PHOSPHORUS, AND MAYBE, I DON'T REMEMBER THE MEASURED NUMBERS. BUT SOME YEARS, AFTER THE IAP WENT IN, I THINK IN THE EARLY '80'S, IT WENT UP TO NINETY METRIC TONS IN SOME YEARS. Q. OKAY. AND WHERE DID THAT PHOSPHORUS COME FROM? A. IT CAME THROUGH THE CANAL STRUCTURES AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1193 THROUGH THE HILLSBORO CANAL. Q. AND WHERE DID IT -- HOW DID THE PHOSPHORUS GET INTO THE WATER IN THE FIRST INSTANCE--- A. THAT--- Q. ---THE PHOSPHORUS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW, THE INCREASE WHICH RESULTED FROM THE IAP? A. RIGHT. WELL, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE RECORDS AND SO FORTH, THAT SOME OF IT CAME AS WATER THAT WAS PASSED THROUGH FROM THE EAA LAND, WHICH WAS A COMBINATION -- THAT WATER WAS A COMBINATION OF THEIR RUNOFF, RAINFALL, LAKE OKEECHOBEE WATER. SO, IT'S A MIXTURE OF WATERS THAT CAME OFF THE EAA. Q. OKAY, GO AHEAD. ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE REGION--- A. 2A? Q. ---THAT YOU'RE CALLING 2A? A. THE SOUTHERN END OF 2A IS -- AND THE CENTER PORTION OF IT -- ARE STILL RELATIVELY UNDISTURBED. I'D SAY, OTHER THAN THE PULSED HYDROLOGY, THE MAIN THING WITH 2A IS ITS PULSED HYDROLOGY IS QUITE DIFFERENT. WATER BACKS UP; IT PROBABLY GETS SOME OF THE GREATEST OSCILLATIONS AND HYDROLOGIC ACTIVITY OF ANY OF THE SYSTEM, EXCEPT FOR THE WESTERN -- NORTHWESTERN PORTION -- NORTH -- LET'S SAY THE WESTERN CENTRAL PORTION HAS A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1194 HIGH REGION, WHICH STILL HAS A VERY DENSE -- A VERY DENSE SAWGRASS SECTION. IT'S PROBABLY THE BEST REMNANT THAT I KNOW OF, OF DENSE SAWGRASS. IT'S ALMOST PURE SAWGRASS THAT EXISTS, IN SORT OF WHAT'S LEFT OF THE NORTHERN CENTRAL EVERGLADES. Q. AND THAT'S IN THE WHAT PORTION? A. IT'S SORT OF IN THE WESTERN CENTRAL PORTION. I'M NOT DESCRIBING IT VERY WELL, BUT WCA-2A, IF YOU REMEMBER, IS KIND OF AN ODD SHAPED PIECE. IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE A HAMMER. IT'S ON THE WEST -- IT'S ON THE WESTERN SIDE, BUT NOT RIGHT ALONG THE DIKES. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. I'M SAYING IN SORT OF THE -- I'D SAY DIRECTLY SOUTH OF THE 10E STRUCTURE, IF THAT HELPS YOU--- Q. OKAY. A. ---NOT IMMEDIATELY SOUTH, BUT MAYBE A HALF A MILE SOUTH, RUNNING DOWN A RIDGE. Q. ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THAT REGION? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. REID: I WON'T ASK YOU WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE FORM. GO AHEAD. A. ABOUT 2A? Q. YEAH, DID YOU HAVE ANY OTHER -- YOU WERE GIVING ME A SERIES--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1195 A. WELL--- Q. ---YOU WERE DESCRIBING 2A, AND I'M ASKING YOU NOW, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO TELL ME, AS A DESCRIPTION OF 2A, AS A SEPARATE REGION? A. WELL, I THINK HISTORICALLY THE NORTHERN PART OF IT, I MEAN -- WELL, NOW THE NORTHERN PART OF IT, THERE IS SORT OF A CATTAIL MONOCULTURE THAT FORMS A FOUR OR FIVE THOUSAND ACRE BLOCK IN THE NORTHERN PART. BUT, HISTORICALLY, THAT WAS MOSTLY, FROM WHAT WE COULD PIECE TOGETHER -- THERE'S SOME MISCONCEPTIONS ON THAT; SOME PEOPLE THINK IT WAS ALL SAWGRASS -- BUT, HISTORICALLY, THAT PARTICULAR PIECE WAS -- THERE WERE SOME TREE ISLANDS, AND THERE WAS AQUATIC SLOUGH AREAS IN THAT PARTICULAR REGION, SOME WILLOWS. AND, SO, IT WAS NOT A PURE SAWGRASS STAND IN THAT PARTICULAR REGION. AND THE ORIGINAL VEGETATION THERE WAS REALLY HURT PRETTY BADLY, ESPECIALLY THE TREE ISLANDS AND SOME OF THE MACROPHYTES WHEN IT WAS FLOODED FOR A DECADE, IT DROWNED -- IT WAS DROWNED OUT; BECAME A LAKE. Q. AND WHAT DECADE WAS THAT? A. I BELIEVE THAT WAS FROM THE LATE SIXTIES THROUGH THE SEVENTIES. Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S NOW CATTAILS, IN LARGE PART? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1196 A. THE NORTHERN PORTION OF THAT IS -- I'D SAY FOUR OR FIVE THOUSAND ACRES -- AND THERE'S A ZONE IN THERE THAT'S CATTAIL, AND THEN THERE'S A MIXED ZONE. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT -- THOSE CATTAILS, THE EXPLANATION FOR THOSE CATTAILS IS THE FLOODING, THAT YOU DESCRIBED? A. WELL, I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION OF THINGS. I THINK FLOODING AND DISTURBANCE HAD A LOT TO DO WITH THEM MOVING INTO THAT PARTICULAR ZONE. Q. AND WHAT DISTURBANCE? A. WELL, THE SCENARIOS ARE -- THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, WHICH WAS THE FLOODING, WHICH KILLED OFF THE NATIVE VEGETATION, OR IT WEAKENED IT TO SOME DEGREE, AND THEN THE DRAWDOWN. THEN THERE WERE FIRES; THERE WERE TREMENDOUS FIRES IN THAT REGION. Q. SAME TIME PERIOD, LATE SIXTIES, EARLY SEVENTIES? A. LATE SEVENTIES OR EARLY EIGHTIES WERE WHEN THE FIRES WERE -- CAME IN, I BELIEVE. Q. OKAY. A. AND THEN THERE WAS RE-FLOODING. THEN WE ADDED WATER AND NUTRIENTS, AND I THINK IT RESULTED IN CATTAIL. Q. NOW, YOU ADDED -- RIGHT AT THE END OF YOUR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1197 ANSWER, YOU ADDED "NUTRIENTS." WHERE DID THOSE NUTRIENTS COME FROM? A. THROUGH THE 10 STRUCTURES. Q. AND WAS THAT ESSENTIALLY AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF? A. IT CAME DOWN THE HILLSBORO CANAL, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IF YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN OUT THOSE NUTRIENTS, YOU STILL WOULD HAVE HAD THE SAME RESULT, THE SAME CATTAILS? A. IF I HAD TAKEN OUT THE NUTRIENTS? Q. YES. A. I BELIEVE YOU WOULD HAVE HAD CATTAILS IN THERE. Q. HOW WOULD THEY COMPARE TO THE CATTAILS, THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, THAT ARE IN THERE? A. WELL, IT'S HARD TO KNOW. I BELIEVE FROM LOOKING AT THEIR -- SOME RECORDS AND EARLY DESCRIPTIONS OF THAT, THAT, IN FACT, THERE WAS -- THERE WAS A--- (THEREUPON, TELEPHONE RINGS.) A. ---AN AMOUNT OF CATTAILS THAT WERE IN THERE, I'D SAY HISTORICALLY, AFTER THE EARLY DISTURBANCE OF THE CANAL, AND ALL THAT STUFF WERE IN THERE. NOW, I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT ACREAGE, BUT IT WAS--- Q. WELL, I'M NOT SURE THAT EXACTLY ANSWERED MY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1198 QUESTION, BUT I WANT TO -- I WOULD LIKE TO--- A. I GOT SORT OF DISTRACTED WITH ALL OF THIS, WITH THE PHONE. MR. REID: OKAY. SURE. LET'S TAKE A BREAK. (THEREUPON, A BREAK WAS TAKEN FROM 9:42 A.M. TO 9:45 A.M.) MR. REID: BACK ON THE RECORD. EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES: Q. THIS -- BEFORE WE GO BACK TO THE QUESTION, WOULD YOU -- I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME CATTAIL AREA. WOULD YOU TELL ME EXACTLY WHERE IT IS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. I BELIEVE THE CATTAIL AREA I WAS REFERRING TO WAS THE SMALL, SORT OF MONOCULTURE AREA THAT PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IN THE NORTHERN END OF WCA-2A THAT'S SOUTH OF THE HILLSBORO CANAL. Q. WOULD THAT -- CAN YOU TELL ME, WITH REGARD TO STRUCTURES, WHERE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. IT FOLLOWS ALONG THE DCA STRUCTURES AND DOWN TO THE RIGHT. I BELIEVE THAT'S THE L-39 LEVEE. Q. AND THAT'S ABOUT HOW MANY ACRES? WHAT'S THAT AREA YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. THE MONOCULTURE AREA IN THERE, I THINK, IS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1199 JUST -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT FIGURE; I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT DOCUMENTS -- BUT I THOUGHT ABOUT FIVE THOUSAND ACRES, I'M SAYING ROUGHLY. Q. NOW, YOU HAD GONE THROUGH A LIST OF THINGS THAT YOU SAID YOU BELIEVE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS CREATION OF THIS; AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE LATE SIXTIES, EARLY SEVENTIES FLOODING, DISTURBANCES SUCH AS FIRES ABOUT A DECADE LATER; AND THEN YOU ENDED BY SAYING, AND THE ADDITION OF NUTRIENTS. AND I WAS ASKING -- I ASKED IF THOSE WERE NUTRIENTS FROM AGRICULTURE RUNOFF, AND I BELIEVE YOU SAID THEY WERE. MR. GREEN: I OBJECT. I DON'T THINK SO. Q. (BY MR. REID) DID YOU SAY THAT THEY WERE? A. I SAID THEY CAME OFF THE LAND. I THINK I SAID EARLIER THAN THAT, IT WAS -- WHAT COMES OFF THE LAND IS A COMBINATION OF RAINFALL AND LAKE WATER, AND -- BUT, ESSENTIALLY, IT COMES ALL THROUGH THAT CANAL, RIGHT. Q. WELL, IT'S WATER THAT'S USED FOR FERTILIZA -- FOR IRRIGATION IN THE EAA. IS THAT CORRECT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, THERE'S ALSO RAINWATER IN THERE, TOO, BUT ALL THAT WATER WAS--- Q. OKAY. AND, SO, NOW MY QUESTION IS, IF THE NUTRIENTS HAD NOT BEEN ADDED, WOULD YOU HAVE THE SAME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1200 CATTAIL AREA THAT YOU HAVE? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) OR HOW WOULD IT DIFFER, I GUESS I SHOULD SAY. MR. GREEN: I STILL OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S HARD TO KNOW HOW IT WOULD DIFFER. I MEAN, FROM MY RECOLLECTIONS, DISCUSSIONS, AND REVIEW OF PHOTOGRAPHS AND ANALYSIS OF THIS, THERE HAVE BEEN, SINCE THE CANALS WERE PUT IN, AND EVEN IN THE SEVENTIES, THERE WAS A MONOCULTURE OF CATTAIL THAT WAS ALONG THAT ZONE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN ONLY -- I DON'T KNOW -- THIRTY, FIFTY PERCENT OF THAT TOTAL ZONE, BUT THAT'S WHAT IT -- THAT WAS THERE. SO, IF THERE HAD BEEN NO NUTRIENTS, I MEAN, I'M NOT SURE HOW YOU WOULD GET NO NUTRIENTS IN THERE, I GUESS. Q. WELL, IF THERE WERE NO -- IF THE WATER DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN NATURALLY OCCURRING NUTRIENTS, LET'S SAY, YOU DIDN'T HAVE FARMING TO THE NORTH--- MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) LET'S ASSUME THAT. MY QUESTION IS, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? WHAT WOULD THAT CATTAIL STRU -- WHAT WOULD THAT CATTAIL COMMUNITY LOOK LIKE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1201 A. WELL, AS I SAID, I THINK BECAUSE THE STRUCTURES WENT IN AND THERE WAS SUBSIDENCE AND IT WAS DEEPER THERE, AND WITH ALL THE CONDITIONS PRIOR TO THAT, YOU WOULD STILL HAVE A -- YOU'D HAVE SOME MONOCULTURE OF CATTAIL THAT WOULD EXIST IN THAT REGION, IN THAT ZONE. Q. SO, WITHOUT FARMING, OR AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF, YOU BELIEVE YOU'D STILL HAVE SOME CATTAILS IN THAT AREA--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. ---FOR ALL THE OTHER REASONS THAT YOU MENTIONED? A. I BELIEVE YOU'D HAVE SOME CATTAIL IN THOSE AREAS. Q. AND HAS THAT CATTAIL AREA EXPANDED OVER TIME, SINCE THE TIME THAT YOU POINTED OUT, IN THE SEVENTIES, WHEN YOU SAID THERE WAS A PREEXISTING OR AN EXISTING MONOCULTURE OF CATTAILS THERE? A. HAS IT EXPANDED, MOVED UP? Q. YES. YES, MOVED -- OR DOWN, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO SAY IT -- MOVED SOUTH, I GUESS. A. I BELIEVE THERE'S EVIDENCE THAT IT HAS DONE SO, YES. Q. IS IT CONTINUING TO EXPAND, AS WE SIT HERE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1202 TODAY? A. WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I HAVE SEEN IT BOTH RETREAT, DURING THE LAST FIVE YEARS, IN TERMS OF FREEZES, AND HAVE MOST OF THE CATTAILS DIE BACK. I'VE SEEN IT DISAPPEAR WHEN FIRES WENT THROUGH THERE, AND SAWGRASS CAME BACK. AND THEN I'VE SEEN IN THE LAST -- AND DURING THE DROUGHT, THE CATTAILS WERE TERRIBLY HURT. AND THEN I'VE SEEN IT, ALSO, WITH THE RAINFALLS AND THE INCREASED WATER FLOWS, EXPAND. I THINK IT'S PROBABLY AT AN OSCILLATING FRONT AT THE MOMENT, IN TERMS OF UNDER THE -- QUOTE -- SORT OF LIKE A PENDULUM ON A GRANDFATHER CLOCK. AS THE WATER IS PULSED THROUGH THERE, BACK AND FORTH, THERE'S A ZONE THAT IS SORT OF AT THE OUTER EDGE, NOW, BUT I THINK IT MOVES OUT AND COMES BACK, AND MOVES OUT AND COMES BACK. AND THEN DEPENDING UPON WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE A YEAR WHERE THERE'S TREMENDOUS DROUGHT, IT MAY MOVE BACK FURTHER, OR A YEAR OF TREMENDOUS RAIN, IT MAY MOVE FORWARD A BIT. BUT RIGHT NOW, IT SEEMS TO BE SOMEWHAT IN SOMEWHAT OF A QUASI-STEADY STATE, I GUESS. Q. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU JUST SAID. IF YOU DREW A LINE, IF WE WENT BACK IN THE SEVENTIES, WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS A MONOCULTURE OF CATTAILS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1203 Q. ---AROUND THE CANAL, AND HOW LARGE WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN? DID YOU SAY TEN OR FIFTEEN PERCENT OF WHAT IT IS NOW? A. NO, I THINK I SAID -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY -- I THINK WE LOOKED AT SOME AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS. I THINK THIRTY TO FORTY PERCENT OF WHAT IT WAS. Q. OKAY. AND IF YOU DREW A LINE THERE, IT HAS EXPANDED BEYOND THAT LINE? A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHETHER THE MONOCULTURE HAS EXPANDED, OR WHETHER JUST INDIVIDUAL CATTAIL PLANTS HAVE EXPANDED. Q. WELL, LET'S START WITH THE MONOCULTURE; HAS THE AREA OF MONOCULTURE EXPANDED SINCE THE SEVENTIES? A. SINCE THE SEVENTIES? I THINK IT -- I THINK SINCE THE SEVE -- EARLY SEVENTIES, LATE SEVENTIES? Q. THE TIME THAT YOU SAID--- A. OH--- Q. ---I'M USING YOUR REFERENCE POINT. A. ---OKAY. Q. WHEN YOU SAID THERE WAS AN EXISTING MONOCULTURE--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---OF THIRTY TO FORTY PERCENT OF THE CURRENT MONOCULTURE. A. RIGHT. WELL, THEN, I THINK IN A SENSE THAT, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1204 SINCE THAT TIME, IT'S PROBABLY MAYBE DOUBLED IN SIZE, OR SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE. Q. AND THEN YOU'RE SAYING THAT -- SO, THEN IF WE DREW A LINE TO THE POINT WHERE IT HAD EXPANDED, BEYOND THAT, THERE WOULD BE A MIXED ZONE OF CATTAILS AND SAWGRASS, I TAKE IT? A. AND OTHER SPECIES, CORRECT. Q. AND OTHER THINGS, OF COURSE. A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. NOW, YOU SAY THAT IT HAS RETREATED DUE TO FREEZE. THERE HAVE BEEN FREEZES ALONG THAT LINE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT HAS ACTUALLY CAUSED THE MONOCULTURE LINE, IF YOU WILL, TO MOVE BACK TO THE NORTH? A. THE FREEZE -- AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT -- IN THE '89-90 PERIOD -- PROBABLY KNOCKED OUT -- AND THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ESTIMATE HERE -- SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT OR MORE OF THE CATTAILS WERE, THROUGHOUT THAT REGION. I MEAN, IT WAS AMAZINGLY DEVASTATING TO CATTAILS. Q. THE MONOCULTURE REGION? A. ALL THE CATTAILS IN THOSE AREAS. THEY WERE JUST WIPED OUT. Q. OKAY. ALL IN 2-A, ALL THE CATTAILS IN 2A? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1205 A. WELL, PRETTY MUCH CATTAILS, PRETTY MUCH THROUGHOUT. WE HAD HAD A RECORD DROUGHT PERIOD FOR TWO YEARS, AND THE DROUGHT HAD WEAKENED THEM TERRIBLY, AND THE WATER WAS THIRTY CENTIMETERS BELOW -- FIFTY CENTIMETERS BELOW THE SURFACE. Q. SO, IF SOMEBODY WENT OUT THERE IN '90, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND NO CATTAILS? A. NO, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND SOME CATTAILS, BUT THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND VERY DEVASTATED STANDS OF CATTAILS BY COMPARISON, AND IT DEPENDS ON THE REGION YOU WENT, BECAUSE THERE WERE SOME FIRES IN THERE, TOO. YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND, YOU KNOW, BURNED AREAS AND SO FORTH. Q. WE'RE TALKING NOW ABOUT THIS AREA OF MONOCULTURE. IS THAT CORRECT? A. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE WHOLE AREA, I'M SORRY. Q. WHAT WHOLE AREA? A. THE MONOCULTURE AND THE MIXTURE. I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING--- Q. OKAY. THE MONOCULTURE AND THE MIXED AREA, THAT'S FAIR ENOUGH. SO, YOU'RE SAYING THERE WERE FIRES AFTER '90 THAT ALSO AFFECTED THESE? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. SO, AT WHAT POINT WOULD YOU HAVE GONE THERE, A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1206 SCIENTIST SUCH AS YOURSELF, AND IF YOU WERE DOING A VEGETATIVE MAP, YOU WOULD HAVE SAID -- YOU WOULD NOT HAVE PUT CATTAIL MONOCULTURE, OR MIXED, CATTAIL SAWGRASS ON YOUR MAP, YOU WOULD HAVE PUT SOMETHING ELSE? MR. BURGESS: WHERE? MR. REID: IN THIS AREA WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT HE JUST DESCRIBED. MR. BURGESS: ALL OF 2A? MR. REID: NO, I DON'T -- IS IT ALL OF 2A, ALL THIS -- WELL, LET'S FIND OUT. Q. (BY MR. REID) ARE YOU SAYING THAT IN ALL OF 2A, IT'S EITHER MONOCULTURE OR MIXED CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS? A. NO, NO. Q. OKAY. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE AREA THAT YOU DESCRIBED AS MONOCULTURE AND MIXED CATTAIL, SAWGRASS AND OTHER THINGS. IS THAT CORRECT? A. UH-HUH (YES). (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. ALL RIGHT, WITHIN THAT AREA, ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE FREEZE, IN '89 OR '90, AND FIRES IN THAT SAME PERIOD, RESULTED IN A DESTRUCTION OF ALL THE CATTAILS? A. NO, YOU COULD STILL SEE THE REMNANTS OF WHERE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1207 THE ZONES WERE. YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT, BUT I'M SAYING, THEY WERE NOT VIA -- IF YOU WENT OUT THERE AND LOOKED AT THEM, I MEAN, YOU COULD SEE -- YOU COULD SEE WHERE THE ZONES WERE. WELL, THAT QUESTION IS WHETHER YOU'RE LOOKING FOR LIVING, VIABLE VEGETATION, OR -- YOU COULD TELL -- THERE WERE NONE. Q. SO, THEN WHAT -- SO, THEN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) ---TO THESE AREAS -- THE SAME AREA. MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. Q. (BY MR. REID) DID THEY GROW BACK? A. WE -- IT DEPENDS. I HAVE NOT SURVEYED IN GREAT DETAIL THESE AREAS. IT IS NOT MY JOB ESSENTIALLY TO KEEP TRACK OF THE CATTAILS, ALTHOUGH IT WASN'T ONE OF MY MAJOR OBJECTIVES OF MY STUDY TO DO THAT, SO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT I AM RELATING TO YOU ARE SIMPLY OBSERVATIONS WHEN WE GO ON OUR EIGHTEEN TRANSECT POINTS, AND WE DID PUT A VEGETATION SURVEY IN ON OUR EIGHTEEN POINTS FOR EACH -- EVERY OTHER YEAR, WE HAD A REFERENCE POINT AND WE TAKE A NUMBER OF LINE TRANSECTS SO THAT WE CAN GET SOME IDEAS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING ALONG OUR EIGHTEEN POINTS, BUT I DID NOT TRY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1208 TO MAP, PER SE, MYSELF, ALL THE CATTAIL ZONES. I CAN ONLY -- I'M JUST TELLING YOU FROM SOME OBSERVATIONS AND FOLLOWING THAT, BUT--- Q. MY QUESTION IS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE AREA WHERE THE CATTAILS WERE HARMED BY THE FREEZE, FOLLOWED BY THE FIRES, WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT? A. WELL, WE DID -- IN A COUPLE OF THE PLOTS, WHERE WE DID DO SOME ANALYSES WHERE THE FIRES WERE, WE DID IT -- WE DID SOME VEGETATION SURVEYS AND WE ACTUALLY PUT THAT IN OUR ANNUAL REPORT, AND IN THE NORTHERN END, IT THINK IT WAS ON THE C LINE WHERE WE HAD DONE THE QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS, SAWGRASS CAME BACK. Q. ALL THE WAY UP TO THE CANAL? A. NO, I SAID WHERE WE DID OUR STUDY. I DIDN'T -- WE DID NOT DO A COMPLETE VEGETATION SURVEY. I'M SAYING WE HAVE EIGHTEEN POINTS, SIX ON THREE LINES, AND WE DID VEGETATION SURVEYS ON ALL THOSE, BUT IN SOME OF THOSE, WHERE WE DID AN INTENSIVE SURVEY, WE JUST WANTED TO CHECK TO SEE WHAT CAME BACK, BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN ONE OF OUR GOALS TO COME UP WITH SOME MANAGEMENT SCENARIOS TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, CATTAILS -- IF YOU WANT TO MANAGE CATTAILS, WHAT YOU COULD DO AND HOW YOU COULD DO IT, WHETHER THEY WOULD COME, WHETHER THEY WOULD GO, AND SO WE BASICALLY WANTED TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1209 AFTER THE FIRE, SO WE ANALYZED IN MORE DETAIL THAT SERIES OF PLOTS. AND THAT PARTICULAR ZONE CAME BACK THE FIRST YEAR, ALMOST IN PURE SAWGRASS. Q. NOW, WHERE -- WHERE -- WHICH ONE OF YOUR 18 WAS THAT? A. I THINK IT WAS C3. Q. AND WAS THAT THE ONLY POINT WHERE THE CATTAILS CAME BACK -- I MEAN, THE SAWGRASS CAME BACK? A. NO. WELL, WE SAW SOME OTHER AREAS. THAT WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WE SURVEYED, BUT WE DID NOT SURVEY ALL OF THOSE. WE HAVE TAKEN SURVEYS OF THE OTHER EIGHTEEN POINTS. NOW, THAT WAS ONLY -- THE REASON WE DID THAT PARTICULAR C3 WAS THE AREA WHERE THE FIRE CAME AND ACTUALLY BURNED -- ACTUALLY BURNED THE WHOLE PLOT DOWN. Q. AND WHEN DID YOU MAKE THIS OBSERVATION AT C3? A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT OUR REPORT, BUT, I MEAN, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN THE EARLY NINETIES. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN. WE TOOK THE MEASUREMENTS IN THE SUMMERTIME. Q. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT IT SINCE THEN? A. WE ANALYZED THE PLOTS, I BELIEVE, IN '92, SO I BELIEVE THIS WOULD HAVE HAD TO BE EARLIER. I THINK IT WOULD BE -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS '91 OR '90. BUT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1210 WE HAVE REANALYZED AND THAT -- THAT'S THE PLOT. I THINK IT WAS THE NEXT YEAR. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE FINDING THEN? A. OH, IT HAD A VERY VIGOROUS STAND OF SAWGRASS GROWING THERE, AND WE HAD A FEW SPRIGS OF CATTAIL. Q. AND DID YOU CHECK IT LATER? A. WE WILL BE ANALYZING THAT -- ALL THESE PLOTS AGAIN, THIS SUMMER, IN MAY. Q. DO YOU EXPECT THAT YOU WILL FIND MORE CATTAILS AT THAT POINT? A. WE MIGHT. Q. TO WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THESE CATTAILS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. A. TO WHAT DO I ATTRIBUTE THEM TO? Q. YEAH. WHY ARE THERE CATTAILS THERE? A. WELL, I THINK THERE'S A SEED SOURCE, AND THERE ARE -- AFTER THAT FIRE, AND ALSO IN THE SOIL, THERE ARE NUTRIENT AND WATER CONDITIONS THAT MAKE IT CONDUCIVE FOR CATTAIL TO GROW. Q. WELL, THERE ARE -- SINCE THE FIRES WERE OVER, THERE HAVEN'T BEEN ANY -- HAVE THERE BEEN ANY DISTURBANCES AT THE C3 POINT? A. SINCE THE FIRE? Q. YEAH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1211 A. JUST PULSED WATER. Q. SO, THERE HAVE BEEN NO DISTURBANCES, IS THAT CORRECT? MR. GREEN: WELL, YOU JUST SAID THE--- A. EXCEPT -- THAT I KNOW OF, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT THE GATES -- IT'S SOUTH OF THE SEA STRUCTURE, SO WHENEVER THEY OPEN THE GATES AND PUT WATER. Q. I UNDERSTAND. LET'S PUT WATER ASIDE FOR A MINUTE. I'M TALKING ABOUT DISTURBANCES LIKE CONSTRUCTION, OR FIRE, OR FREEZE, OR THOSE TYPE THINGS. A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY FREEZES OR ANY OTHER FIRES. Q. AND WHAT'S BEEN THE WATER SITUATION IN THAT AREA? HAS THERE BEEN A DROUGHT? HAS THERE BEEN A--- A. NO, THERE'S BEEN A RECORD -- SINCE THE EARLY NINETIES, WE'VE GONE INTO -- I SAY RECORD, THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT WORD -- WE'VE GONE INTO NORMAL OR ABOVE NORMAL RAINFALL CONDITIONS; AND IN THIS LAST YEAR, WE HAVE, FOR WHATEVER REASON -- I'M NOT SURE -- THE DISTRICT HAS DECIDED TO PUMP SOUTH A TREMENDOUS VOLUME OF WATER. WCA-2A HAS NOT BEEN ON ITS REGULATION STANDARD FOR, I'D SAY, CLOSE TO THE LAST YEAR, IF NOT LONGER. THEY HAVE OVER SHOT THEIR WATER STANDARDS. WE'VE CALLED THE DISTRICT A NUMBER OF TIMES TO ASK THEM DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1212 WHY, IF THEY HAVEN'T -- YOU KNOW, IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE YEARS, THEY USE THE CANALS. IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE YEARS, THE 217 STATION. THEY HAVE A BASELINE THAT THEY SWITCH BY SEASON, AS YOU WELL KNOW, PROBABLY, AND THEY HAVE OVERSHOT THAT BY A FOOT, OR FOOT AND A HALF OF WATER. Q. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE '93 REGULATORY RELEASES THAT RESULTED IN SOME LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER BEING SENT SOUTH? A. I THINK IT MUST HAVE BEEN PART OF THAT, YES. Q. AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AFTER, THOUGH, YOU FOUND THE BEGINNING OF THE CATTAILS? A. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AFTER THE BEGINNING OF THE CATTAILS, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN -- THE SAME TIME WE FOUND CATTAILS WOULD HAVE BEEN WHEN WE HAD THE HIGHER RAINFALL PERIODS, TOO. Q. SO, AT THE TIME THE CATTAILS HAD BEGUN INVADING IN THE AREA THAT PREVIOUSLY YOU FOUND TO BE COMPLETE SAWGRASS -- AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THERE WAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN -- I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE SITUATION WAS--- A. SURE. MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM. Q. ---SO, WAS THERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN HIGH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1213 RAINFALL? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WAS THERE ANYTHING--- Q. ANYTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY. A. ---IN THAT C3? Q. AT C3, YES, SIR. A. WELL, C3, I MEAN, THE SOIL CONDITIONS AT THE C3, YOU REMEMBER ORIGINALLY WE STARTED THIS OUT BY SAYING WHAT WAS C3. C3 ORIGINALLY WAS CATTAIL. Q. RIGHT. AND THEN THEY WERE ALL DESTROYED, AND THEN YOU SAID SAWGRASS CAME BACK. A. CORRECT. Q. A PERFECT STAND OF SAWGRASS, YOU SAID. A. WELL, IT WAS ABOUT AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN GET. Q. RIGHT. AND THEN THE NEXT YEAR YOU FOUND CATTAILS THERE? A. RIGHT. Q. AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THERE WERE ANY OF THESE OTHER THINGS TO WHICH YOU ATTRIBUTE THE BEGINNING OF CATTAILS, IN SOME OF YOUR EARLIER TESTIMONY. A. RIGHT. Q. AND SO FAR YOU'VE TOLD ME THERE WAS HIGHER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1214 THAN NORMAL RAINFALL. A. WELL, AND WATER FLOWS; AND, OF COURSE, THE SOIL CONDITIONS AT C3 ARE ELEVATED NUTRIENT CONDITIONS AT C3. Q. PREVIOUSLY EXISTING? A. PREVIOUSLY EXISTING. Q. AND IS THAT -- WOULD YOU ATTRIBUTE, THEN, THIS OUT -- THIS BEGINNING OF CATTAILS TO THOSE FACTORS? A. TO ALL THOSE FACTORS -- OR WHAT FACTORS? Q. WELL, WHICH ONES, YOU TELL ME. A. WELL, I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION. Q. OF? A. OF THOSE FACTORS. I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO HAVE, FOR CATTAILS TO INVADE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE DISTURBANCE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT HYDROLOGY. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT CONDITIONS FOR THEM. PRIMARILY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE DISTURBANCE OF SOME KIND TO GET THEM. Q. AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY DISTURBANCE HERE, THOUGH, IN C3? A. WE HAD A FIRE. Q. NO, I MEAN, SINCE THE SAWGRASS CAME BACK, AND THERE WAS NO DISTURBANCE THAT PRECEDED THE BEGINNING OF CATTAILS. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1215 MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM, THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID. Q. (BY MR. REID) WELL, ALL RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID, BUT I'LL -- YOU HAD A FIRE. YOU HAD FIRES. AND THEN YOU FOUND SAWGRASS, PURE SAWGRASS AFTER THAT. IS THAT CORRECT? A. CORRECT. Q. THEN THE NEXT TIME YOU CHECKED, YOU FOUND CATTAILS BEGINNING? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. THERE WAS NO FIRE BETWEEN THE TIME OF THE PURE SAWGRASS AND THE TIME YOU FOUND CATTAILS, WAS THERE? A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q. WAS THERE ANY DISTURBANCE, AT ALL, DURING THAT PERIOD? A. PULSED--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECTION, ASKED AND ANSWERED. A. ---PULSED WATER CONDITIONS THROUGH THERE. Q. IN OTHER WORDS, WATER FLOWING THROUGH THE CANALS FROM AGRICULTURE RUNOFF? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. THERE'S THAT, BUT THERE'S ALSO THE WAY IN WHICH IT WAS -- THE WAY IN WHICH WATER IS ADMINISTERED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1216 TO THOSE SYSTEMS, THAT IS, THESE STRUCTURES, WHO BASICALLY OPEN AND CLOSE THE GATES, AND YOU HAVE TO -- IF YOU'RE THERE AND ACTUALLY SEE THE WATER FLOW, I MEAN, IT'S LIKE THEY OPEN UP THE WALL, AND THEN YOU GET THIS MASSIVE VOLUME OF WATER JUST -- IT'S SO -- IT CAN BE SO -- SUCH A GREAT MAGNITUDE THAT, IN FACT, YOU CAN SEE THE NEARBY VEGETATION BEING JUST SORT OF RIPPED OUT, AND JUST PUSHED SOUTH, SO THERE'S A TREMENDOUS VOLUME OF THAT, THEN. NOW, WHAT I DIDN'T TELL YOU IS THAT -- I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK OUR NOTES, BUT I DON'T -- I'M NOT SURE WHETHER THE CATTAILS WERE SEEDED IN, OR WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THEY CAME FROM RHIZOMES THAT WERE STILL VIABLE. SO, THAT'S -- THE SEED BANK, IN OTHER WORDS, COULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN THERE, SO WHETHER -- THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHETHER THEY INVADED, OR WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THEY JUST CAME FROM THE EXISTING STOCK. Q. IF YOU HAD HAD WATER WITH ABSOLUTELY NO NUTRIENTS IN IT, AT ALL, WOULD THE -- WOULD YOU HAVE EXPECTED TO SEE THE CATTAILS? A. PROBABLY. Q. WHY IS THAT? A. WELL, BECAUSE THERE'S ENOUGH RESIDUAL NUTRIENT MATERIAL IN THE SOIL, AND THE SOIL PORE WATER THERE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1217 Q. WHICH HAS -- WHICH DID NOT EXIST HISTORICALLY IN THE EVERGLADES? A. NOT TO THAT DEGREE. Q. ALL RIGHT, WHAT -- WE'VE DIGRESSED, OBVIOUSLY. GOING BACK TO YOUR REGIONS, WHAT WILL -- WHAT WOULD THE NEXT REGION BE? MR. GREEN: BEFORE WE DO THAT, COULD WE TAKE ABOUT ONE MINUTE? (THEREUPON, A BREAK WAS TAKEN FROM 10:10 A.M. TO 10:15 A.M.) Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT, WHAT IS THE NEXT AREA OF--- WITNESS: WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD, I GUESS? MR. REID: YES Q. ---AREA THAT -- YOU TOLD ME ABOUT THE LOXAHATCHEE AND ABOUT WCA-2A; WHAT'S THE OTHER REGION, WHEN YOU SAID YOU DIVIDE THE EVERGLADES INTO REGIONS? A. RIGHT. AND SO FOR 2A, AS I SAID, I THINK WE WOULD -- I WOULD DESCRIBE THAT ONE AS -- FINISH UP WITH THAT ONE AS THE MOST DISTURBED -- THE MOST DISTURBED SYSTEM. AND THEN THERE'S 2B, AN AREA THAT HAS BEEN DIVIDED OFF FROM 2A. THAT'S A SMALL SEGMENT; I GUESS ABOUT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1218 TWENTY-SEVEN THOUSAND ACRES. ANOTHER ONE THAT IS SOMEWHAT HYDROLOGICALLY ISOLATED FROM 2A, ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE WATER FLOW STRUCTURES INTO THAT, AND ALSO THIS IS A SOMEWHAT MORE POROUS SYSTEM IN THE SENSE THAT THE SUBSURFACE FLOW, ACCORDING TO THE DISTRICT AND GEOLOGICAL RECORDS, ARE SUCH THAT IT DOES NOT HOLD WATER AS WELL AS THE OTHER SYSTEMS. SO, IT'S A SMALLER COMPONENT OF THE SYSTEM. AND THEN THERE'S 3, WHICH IS THE LARGEST OF THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, AND THE ONE THAT I WOULD CONSIDER, FROM MY ANALYSES, THE MOST REPRESENTATIVE REMAINING AREA OF WHAT I WOULD CALL THE FLOW-THROUGH PART OF THE EVERGLADES, AND IT'S THE CENTRAL PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES. Q. BY THE FLOW-THROUGH PART, YOU MEAN THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES? A. HISTORICAL EVERGLADES THAT THE WATER, WHICH UNDER HIGH FLOW CONDITIONS CAME OUT FROM SEVERAL REGIONS OF THE SOUTHERN END OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE AND MOVED, ACCORDING TO THE HISTORICAL RECORDS IN THE 1850'S -- FROM -- I THINK IT WAS CAPTAIN JACKSON -- SORT OF PUNTING ACROSS THE SOUTHERN PART OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, TALKED ABOUT WATER FLOWING TEN MILES WIDE, ABOUT A LARGE SECTION OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, AND THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1219 WOULD HAVE MOVED DOWN THROUGH PORTIONS OF, OBVIOUSLY, THROUGH EAA, BUT ALSO ALL THE WAY DOWN THROUGH PARTS 2 -- OR 3, EXCUSE ME. Q. SO, YOUR BELIEF IS THAT 3 -- WCA-3 IS THE MOST REPRESENTATIVE OF THE HISTORICAL FLOW PATTERNS IN THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, I'M NOT SAYING TODAY THAT IT FLOWS THAT WAY, I'M SAYING THE SOUTH CENTRAL PORTION OF THAT -- THE EVERGLADES ITSELF IS -- THE HYDROLOGIC SYSTEM IS TOTALLY UNLIKE WHAT IT WAS. Q. WELL, WHAT ARE YOU TELLING ME THEN ABOUT WCA-3? A. WCA-3A, BECAUSE OF ITS SIZE, BECAUSE OF ITS LOCATION, BECAUSE OF THE WATER -- THE WAY THE WATER IS DISTRIBUTED, STILL IN MY MIND, REPRESENTS A VERY -- REPRESENTS PROBABLY AS CLOSE AS WE HAVE IN THE CENTRAL PART OF THE EVERGLADES, AN AREA THAT IS BIG ENOUGH, EVEN THOUGH IT IS SURROUNDED BY CANALS AND DIKES, REPRESENTS WHAT THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES WAS. THAT'S WHAT I'M TELLING YOU. THERE ARE SMALL SECTIONS IN 2A. THERE ARE THE CENTER OF 1A, WHICH I THINK, AS I SAID, IS RAINFALL DRIVEN; THAT IS PROBABLY THE CLOSEST WE'RE GOING TO GET TO WHAT IT'S BEEN IN THE LAST THOUSAND YEARS, BECAUSE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1220 NOTHING HAS HAPPENED TO THAT, OTHER THAN JUST NATURAL EFFECTS. SO, THAT GIVES YOU A REPRESENTATIVE PIECE OF WHEN WE DID OUR SURVEYS IN THERE, WE LOOKED AT THE VEGETATION. WE LOOKED AT SOME -- IT GIVES YOU SOME IDEA OF WHAT THAT SOUTH CENTRAL PORTION OF THE GLADES WAS LIKE PRIOR TO GOING INTO THE PARK ITSELF. Q. WOULD IT BE -- DO YOU BELIEVE IT WOULD BE SIMILAR TO THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES IN TERMS OF BIOLOGY AND SOILS, AS WELL? A. IN THE VERY INTERIORS, THE SOILS COULD BE SOMEWHAT REPRESENTATIVE. IN TERMS OF THE BIOLOGY AND SO FORTH, IT HAS ALSO BEEN ALTERED HYDROLOGICALLY. IT'S NO LONGER THE SAME. THERE IS NO PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES, THAT I CAN THINK OF, OTHER THAN THE CENTER OF 1A, THAT IS HYDROLOGICALLY THE SAME. Q. SO, IT'S NOT HYDROLOGICALLY THE SAME. IS IT BIOLOGICALLY THE SAME? A. IT CAN'T BE BIOLOGICALLY THE SAME IF IT'S -- IF YOU'RE ASKING BACK TO HISTORICAL TIMES. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THE SOIL WOULD BE SIMILAR? A. WELL, THE SOIL TYPE IS SIMILAR. Q. WHAT ABOUT THE MAKEUP OF THE SOIL? A. THAT'S KIND OF VAGUE. I MEAN, THE MAKEUP OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1221 THE SOIL -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT. Q. THE AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN IT. A. YEAH, BY AND LARGE, I THINK IT'S REPRESENTATIVE OF THIS. THERE MAY BE SOME -- IF THIS -- IF YOU'RE TALKING -- STILL TALKING ABOUT THE CENTER PORTION I'M TALKING ABOUT, I THINK IT'S REPRESENTATIVE. THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT HAS -- I THINK IT WOULD BE -- IT WOULD OSCILLATE WITHIN THE -- YOU KNOW, EVERY SYSTEM HAS WITHIN IT, A CERTAIN BOUNDARY THAT IT WOULD OSCILLATE WITHIN, DEPENDING UPON FIRES AND CONDITIONS AND SO FORTH. Q. WHAT ABOUT THE WATER QUALITY, WOULD THAT BE SIMILAR IN YOUR MIND? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WATER QUALITY? Q. RIGHT. A. I CAN'T SPEAK TO EVERY ASPECT OF IT. BY AND LARGE, AS I SAID, IF WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE INTERIOR CENTER PORTION OF IT--- Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT NUTRIENTS. A. BUT ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT THAT INTERIOR, WHAT I'M CALLING THE -- I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR STRUCTURE, FOR EXAMPLE, I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THE SOUTH CENTRAL PART. OH, NUTRIENTS, PROBABLY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1222 -- WOULD PROBABLY BE, DEPENDING ON WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT -- I MEAN, WHAT NUTRIENTS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE WATER, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT SOIL, ARE WE TALKING--- Q. RIGHT NOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WATER, SURFACE WATER, OR WATER COLUMN, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NUTRIENT LEVELS IN THAT WATER. YOU TOLD ME THAT THE SOILS WOULD BE SIMILAR WITH REGARD TO THEIR LEVEL OF NUTRIENTS TO THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES, AND NOW I'M ASKING ABOUT THE WATER. A. I'D SAY IT WOULD BE, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT PORTION, I THINK IT WOULD BE REPRESENTATIVE OF -- OR -- YEAH, AS REPRESENTATIVE AS WE COULD GET TO THAT. Q. WHAT ABOUT BIOLOGICALLY, NOW? A. BIOLOGICALLY IS A BIG -- IT'S A BIG AREA. WHAT DO YOU MEAN, BIOLOGICALLY? Q. WELL, PERIPHYTON, WE'LL START WITH THAT. A. IT WOULD BE MY OPINION THAT IT WOULD HAVE -- IT WOULD HAVE REPRESENTATIVE PERIPHYTON, PROBABLY. MR. GREEN: LET ME OBJECT AND JUST STATE -- I'M NOT TRYING TO CAUSE ANY PROBLEMS. THE PROBLEM I'VE GOT IS YOU'RE ASKING WHETHER THAT AREA IS REPRESENTATIVE, AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE ESTABLISHED, REPRESENTATIVE OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1223 WHAT? MR. REID: HISTORICAL EVERGLADES. MR. GREEN: IN THAT AREA? MR. REID: RIGHT. MR. GREEN: BUT PROFESSOR RICHARDSON HAS ALREADY DESCRIBED THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. MR. REID: I UNDERSTAND. MR. GREEN: OKAY. Q. (BY MR. REID) GENERALLY SPEAKING, YOU CAN'T MAKE ANY GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT THE BIOLOGY OF THE AREA? A. WELL, MY -- WE'VE DONE A LITTLE BIT LESS SAMPLING, TO SAY THE LEAST, IN THAT AREA, BUY MY HELICOPTER SURVEYS INTO THERE, AND MY SAMPLINGS, WE TOOK CORES FROM THERE, IN TERMS OF PEAT ACCRETION RATES, PHOSPHORUS STORAGE RATES, AND SO FORTH, TO GET SOME IDEA OF WHAT THOSE AREAS WERE LIKE, AND TRY TO COMPARE THEM, BECAUSE WE NOW -- WE REALIZED THAT THEY WERE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM NORTH TO SOUTH. SO, AS I SAID, I THINK THAT -- THAT'S WHY I MADE MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT, THAT FOR THAT PARTICULAR REGION, ALBEIT, IT IS THE CENTRAL PORTION, THAT I THINK IT IS AS GOOD A REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT WE HAVE IN THE EVERGLADES FOR THAT REGION. IT STILL HAS DEEPER PEAT IN SOME PLACES. Q. DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW WHAT THE CONCENTRATIONS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1224 OF PHOSPHORUS WERE, IN EITHER SOIL OR WATER IN THIS AREA YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. OH, LET ME THINK. I DON'T--- MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME, DO YOU MEAN -- OBJECT TO THE FORM, WHEN? MR. REID: WHENEVER HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORIC EVERGLADES IN THIS AREA. A. HISTORICALLY, YOU MEAN, OR--- MR. REID: NO, I ACTUALLY, THAT'S -- YOU MISINTERPRETED MY QUESTION, AND I ASSUMED YOUR MISINTERPRETATION. I DIDN'T ASK YOU ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORICALLY. I ASKED HIM WHAT CURRENTLY THE--- MR. GREEN: I'M SORRY. MR. REID: PHOSPHORUS--- MR. GREEN: YEAH, I JUST THOUGHT YOU MEANT -- OKAY. MR. REID: I THOUGHT YOU WERE JUMPING ON ME AGAIN ABOUT THE HISTORY, AND -- NO, THIS IS CURRENT. BASED ON THE WORK THAT HE'S DONE, I'M ASKING HIM WHAT IS -- CURRENTLY WHAT ARE THE RATES. WITNESS: SO, REPHRASE THE QUESTION, AND LET ME START AGAIN. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1225 MR. REID: YES. Q. (BY MR. REID) I'M INTERESTED IN THE WATER QUALITY -- IN THE PHOSPHORUS LEVELS IN SOIL AND WATER IN THIS AREA THAT YOU BELIEVE IS SIMILAR TO THE HISTORIC EVERGLADES, THE AREA WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. A. I CAN'T GIVE YOU THE EXACT FIGURE, BUT I CAN GIVE YOU SOME GENERAL FIGURES. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT OUR SURVEYS. WE'VE COLLECTED SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND NUMBERS OR SOMETHING. Q. SURE. A. THE SOIL CONCENTRATIONS WOULD BE, I THINK -- AROUND AVERAGE, THEY COULD RUN ANYWHERE FROM FOUR TO SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. CAN YOU TELL ME PARTS PER BILLION, JUST SO I UNDERSTAND BETTER? A. WELL, THAT'S PARTS PER MILLION--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THAT'S WHAT THE SOIL CONCENTRATIONS WOULD BE IN. YOU WOULDN'T WANT THEM IN PARTS PER BILLION. THERE ARE TOO MANY PARTS PER BILLION. Q. OKAY. TELL ME THEN WHAT PARTS PER MILLION AGAIN; WHAT NUMBERS DID YOU SAY? A. ROUGHLY IN THE FOUR HUNDRED TO SIX HUNDRED PARTS PER MILLION, MICROGRAMS PER GRAMS, OR MILLIGRAMS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1226 PER KILOGRAM. Q. AND WHAT -- AND THAT'S PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS IN THE SOIL, AND--- A. IN THE SOIL AND THE UPPER SURFACE OF THE SOIL, MAYBE THE TOP TEN CENTIMETERS. WHICH IS--- Q. AND -- I'M SORRY. A. I'M SORRY. Q. AND WHAT ABOUT THE WATER? A. I DON'T REMEMBER, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT TAKEN WATER SAMPLES IN 3A IN A LONG TIME. I CAN'T REMEMBER, SO I -- YOU KNOW, IT'S--- Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A BALLPARK? A. TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE PARTS PER BILLION, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. PARTS PER? A. BILLION. Q. OKAY. A. IT REALLY DEPENDS, OF COURSE, ON WHERE YOU TAKE THOSE SAMPLES. Q. SURE. NOW, ARE THERE ANY OTHER REGIONS THAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER IN DIVIDING UP THE EVERGLADES, OR HAVE WE TOUCHED ON THEM ALL? A. WELL, NO, WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THE PARK. Q. WOULD THAT BE THE NEXT REGION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1227 A. YEAH, THAT WOULD BE -- YES, THAT WOULD BE THE NEXT REGION. AND I GAINED ACCESS TO THE PARK THIS JUNE--- Q. SO, I'M TOLD. A. ---FINALLY, AND SURVEYED THE PARK FOR APPROXIMATELY A WEEK, JUST A FEW DAYS -- I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. AND SO IN OUR SURVEY OF THE PARK, WE BASICALLY GOT A CHANCE TO LOOK AT VEGETATION AND SOILS AND SOME WATER AND SOME OTHER ASPECTS. Q. DO YOU CONSIDER THE PARK TO BE A NATURALLY DIVIDED -- OR REGION OF THE EVERGLADES? IS IT DIFFERENT FROM WCA-3, FOR INSTANCE? A. I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU MEANT BY DIVIDED. DO YOU MEAN STRUCTURALLY DIVIDED, OR--- Q. NO. WELL, YOU -- WE STARTED BY YOUR TELLING ME THAT THE EVERGLADES, YOU CAN'T LOOK AT THE EVERGLADES AS A SINGLE BODY AT THIS POINT--- A. YEAH. Q. ---AND YOU'VE BEEN DESCRIBING -- OR I GUESS HISTORICALLY AS WELL. IS THAT CORRECT? A. HISTORICALLY, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT, TOO, YES. Q. AND SO YOU WERE TELLING ME YOUR VIEW OF HOW YOU SPLIT IT UP, AND NOW WE'RE DOWN TO THE PARK, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1228 I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT, IS THAT -- IS THAT JUST A, YOU KNOW, GEOPOLITICAL DIVISION, OR IS THAT A SCIENTIFIC DIVISION, BASED ON SOMETHING? A. WELL, IT'S DEFINITELY A GEOPOLITICAL DIVISION--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT--- Q. THAT'S FINE. A. ---THE STATE AND THE FEDS. Q. BUT SCIENTIFICALLY, IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT, WOULD YOU CONSIDER THAT TO BE SEPARATE FROM ANY OF THE OTHERS? A. WELL, YOU'VE GOT THREE THINGS THERE. YOU'VE GOT IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT, IN TERMS OF SCIENTIFICALLY, WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT ME TO ADDRESS? Q. SCIENTIFICALLY. A. SCIENTIFICALLY, IT IS DIFFERENT, IN THE SENSE THAT IT'S THE SHALLOWEST PEAK AREA IN ITS OUTCROPS. IT HAS -- IT'S THE SOUTHERNMOST REGION FROM LAKE OKEECHOBEE, ALMOST SEVENTY MILES SOUTH. Q. OUTCROPS OF LIMESTONE? A. LIMESTONE. IT HAS, TO THE SOUTHERN END, MANGROVES. IT HAS SALINE INFLUENCES TO THE SOUTH. IN OTHER WORDS, IT HAS SOME MARINE INFLUENCES. ITS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1229 VEGETATION IS MUCH SHORTER, MUCH MORE NUTRIENT LIMITED, AND I WOULD EXPECT THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, THAN THE OTHER REGIONS TO THE NORTH. IT HAS SOME OF THE SAME SPECIES, ALTHOUGH, AS I SAID, THEY'RE IN A MUCH MORE DIMINUTIVE FORM. AND IT ALSO HAS SOME VARIETY OF VEGETATION. IT HAS ONE DEEP PEAT ZONE THAT I WAS ABLE TO SEE. IT PROBABLY HAD SEVERAL MORE OF THE SLOUGH AREA. BUT IT HAS A LOT OF VERY SHALLOW SOILS. AND IT HAS, AS I SAID, THE MARINE INFLUENCE TO THE SOUTH. THE SOILS, ALSO, IN MANY PARTS THAT WE SAW, ARE NOT STRICTLY PEAT. THEY'RE SORT OF A CALCITE BASED MARL, WHICH GIVES IT A MUCH HIGHER BULK DENSITY, SO IT'S QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT IN ITS GEOLOGIC BASE, ITS WATER, AND EVEN SOME VEGETATIVE COMPONENTS. Q. DID YOU DO -- DID YOU -- STRIKE THAT -- DID YOU FIND ANY AREA OF THE PARK THAT YOU BELIEVE REPRESENTS OR IS SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'LL CALL THE HISTORIC EVERGLADES FOR THAT REGION? A. WELL, I WOULD SAY THE CENTRAL PORTIONS, AND SOME OF THE SOUTHERN PORTIONS THAT I SAW, WOULD BE WHAT HAS EXISTED HISTORICALLY. I CAN'T SAY IF THE VEGETATION OR THE WILDLIFE MATCH HISTORICAL DENSITIES OR NUMBERS, PRIMARILY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T -- I DIDN'T HAVE ANY PRIOR -- WELL, LET ME REPHRASE THAT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1230 I'D SAY IT WOULD REPRESENT, AS CLOSE AS WE HAVE, JUST LIKE THE CENTRAL PORTION 3A, TO HISTORICAL CONDITIONS. Q. DID YOU -- STRIKE THAT. WOULD THAT BE TRUE WITH REGARD TO SOIL, NUTRIENT CONTENT OF SOIL, AND OF WATER? A. I WOULD SAY FOR THE SOIL, IT REPRESENTS FAIRLY CLOSE TO HISTORICAL SOIL NUMBERS. THEY'RE VERY TYPICALLY NEAR WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER BACKGROUND OR BE -- NOT BELOW -- BUT BACKGROUND LEVELS. THERE ARE A FEW EXCEPTIONS THAT I FOUND WHEN WE DID OUR SURVEY; BUT, BY AND LARGE, THE AREA WAS PRETTY MUCH IN THE BACKGROUND. Q. WITH REGARD TO SOIL? A. WITH REGARD TO SOIL. Q. HOW ABOUT WATER? A. THE WATER CONDITIONS THE SAME, WE ANALYZED -- THE FEW DAYS THAT WE WERE THERE, WE ANALYZED WATER CONDITIONS, SURFACE WATER CONDITIONS COMING INTO THOSE ZONES THAT WE ANALYZED. AND FOR THAT AREA, WHICH -- AGAIN, WHICH IS DISTINCT FROM THE OTHER AREAS, AS I SAID BEFORE, IS THE TIP, THAT'S PROBABLY THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED AREA OF ALL OF THE GLADES. Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, IT'S AT THE TIP OF SEVENTY MILES OF--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1231 Q. NO, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY NUTRIENT LIMITED, THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED OF ALL OF THE EVERGLADES? A. IT HAS THE LEAST AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN IT. Q. SO, THAT NUTRIENTS, A LITTLE -- LESS AMOUNTS OF NUTRIENTS WOULD HAVE A GREATER IMPACT THERE THAN IN OTHER AREAS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. A LESS AMOUNT. Q. A LOWER LEVEL OF NUTRIENTS WOULD HAVE A GREATER IMPACT IN THIS AREA THAN IN OTHER AREAS--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. ---THAT AREN'T AS NUTRIENT LIMITED? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. YOU'LL HAVE TO RE -- A LOWER LEVEL -- YOU MEAN IF WE TOOK LESS AND LESS NUTRI -- TOOK MORE AND MORE NUTRIENTS OUT--- Q. NO. A. ---THEN YOU WOULD HAVE--- Q. THE SAME AMOUNT -- I'M SORRY. THE SAME AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN THIS AREA, WOULD HAVE A GREATER IMPACT, THAN IN AREAS WHICH WERE NOT AS NUTRIENT LIMITED? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT NUTRIENT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHAT FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1232 Q. PHOSPHORUS. MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. A. IN WHAT FORM, I MEAN? Q. PICK IT. A. WELL, TOTAL PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. A. YOU WANT TO LOOK AT TOTAL PHOSPHORUS? Q. OKAY, LET'S PICK -- LET'S USE THAT. A. SO, WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION ON THAT? Q. MY QUESTION IS -- I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY WHEN YOU SAY IS THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES. AND, TO ME, I THINK WHAT I'M HEARING IS THAT IF YOU TOOK THE SAME AMOUNT OF NUTRIENT, AND INTRODUCED IT TO THAT SYSTEM, YOU WOULD HAVE A GREATER EFFECT THAN IF YOU INTRODUCED IT TO A SYSTEM THAT WAS LESS NUTRIENT LIMITED. MR. GREEN: THAT'S NOT A QUESTION AS IT IS. I'M OBJECTING TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. SO, THEN THE QUESTION IS, IF I ADDED NUTRIENTS -- WHAT IS THE QUESTION? SORRY, GO AHEAD. Q. IT'S REAL SIMPLE. YOU USED THE WORD--- A. RIGHT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1233 Q. ---YOU USED THE PHRASE THAT THIS IS THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED. A. RIGHT. Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT TO MEAN SOMETHING. AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF MY UNDERSTANDING IS CORRECT, OR IF I'M MISUNDERSTANDING IT. TO ME, THAT MEANS THAT IN A -- IN THIS SYSTEM, SYSTEM A, WHICH IS--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---MORE, OR MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED, IF YOU TOOK THE SAME AMOUNT OF NUTRIENT, AND INTRODUCED IT THERE, YOU WOULD SEE A GREATER IMPACT THAN IF YOU INTRODUCED IT INTO AN AREA THAT WAS LESS NUTRIENT LIMITED? A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'D SEE -- THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE IT -- YOU DESCRIBE IT AS AN IMPACT. I WOULD -- YOU WOULD HAVE CHANGE IN GROWTH, AND MAYBE YOU WOULD HAVE A CHANGE IN SOME ASPECTS, BUT IT DEPENDS ON THE FORM. YOU COULD PUT TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WAS MOSTLY ORGANIC, AND YOU MIGHT NOT SEE A CHANGE. Q. WELL, WHAT DID YOU MEAN THEN? WHAT WERE YOU -- WHAT WAS INCLUDED IN THE WORD NUTRIENT, WHEN YOU SAID THIS IS THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED AREA OF THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE WATER COLUMN, FOR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1234 EXAMPLE. THE LEVELS OF NUTRIENTS COMING IN THROUGH THE STRUCTURES, FOR EXAMPLE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---WERE -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY -- NINE, TEN, EIGHT, SEVEN PARTS PER BILLION. Q. SO, BY THAT, DO YOU JUST MEAN THAT IT HAS FEWER NUTRIENTS OR LESS NUTRIENTS THAN THE REST OF THE EVERGLADES? A. IT HAS THE SAME RAINFALL NUTRIENTS, PRETTY MUCH--- Q. OKAY. A. ---THAT MOST OF THE EVERGLADES WOULD HAVE. IT HAS -- THE FLOW COMING INTO THAT, COMPARED TO SOME OF THE OTHER STRUCTURES WE'VE LOOKED AT, GOING DOWN THROUGH, THERE ARE LESS NUTRIENTS IN THE INFLOW STRUCTURES THAN THE OTHER SYSTEMS, AND IN THE WATER COLUMN, DUE TO THE ORGANISMS THAT ARE THERE, AND THE FACT THAT IT'S SO FAR DOWN, ESSENTIALLY, THAT THERE'S VERY FEW NUTRIENTS IN THAT SYSTEM. SO I'M SAYING THAT SYSTEM, THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THAT SYSTEM SHOWS THAT IT'S, IN FACT, MORE NUTRIENT LIMITED. THE SAWGRASS IS SHORTER. THE--- Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A SYNONYM FOR NUTRIENT LIMITED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1235 A. I HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT. A SYNONYM FOR NUTRIENT LIMITED? Q. YEAH. EXPRESS IT A DIFFERENT WAY, IF YOU CAN. A. IT USUALLY -- IT COMES FROM LIEBIG'S EARLY STUDIES THAT DEMONSTRATE THAT ORGANISMS -- A LIMITING FACTOR IS ONE THAT, IN FACT, RESTRICTS OR RETARDS THE GROWTH OF ORGANISMS. IT IN A SENSE LIMITS IT -- IT DOES NOT REACH ITS FULL POTENTIAL, DUE TO THIS LIMITATION--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THAT'S FROM THE GERMAN LIEBIG, 1840'S. Q. I NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU FOUND IN THE SOILS THAT YOU SAMPLED IN THE PARK. A. BY AND LARGE, WE FOUND PHOSPHORUS. Q. PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION? A. PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION; BY AND LARGE, WE FOUND BACKGROUND LEVELS ON ALL BUT, I THINK -- I THINK WE DID THIRTY-EIGHT SITES, AND I THINK WE FOUND ALL -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. I'D HAVE TO LOOK BACK AT THE SHEETS. WE FOUND BACKGROUND LEVELS, EXTREMELY LOW LEVELS ON ALL BUT TWO OR THREE, AND I COULD BE WRONG. THERE MIGHT BE TWO, THERE MIGHT BE FOUR, I CAN'T REMEMBER. Q. AND WHAT WERE THE RA -- WHAT WAS THE RANGE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1236 A. OH, TWO HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, TO SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, MAYBE. THAT'S BEEN THE NORMAL RANGE. Q. AND YOU MEAN PARTS PER MILLION, DON'T YOU? MR. BURGESS: SAME. A. SAME THING. Q. OKAY, TWO HUNDRED TO FOUR HUNDRED? A. NO. I SAID TWO HUNDRED TO, SAY, SIX HUNDRED, FIVE HUNDRED, MAYBE. Q. TWO HUNDRED TO FIVE HUNDRED? MR. BURGESS: MICROGRAMS PER GRAM? A. MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, PARTS PER MILLION. Q. THANK YOU, FOR THOSE OF US THAT ARE SCIENTIFICALLY DISABLED. AND WHAT ABOUT THE SURFACE -- THE WATER? A. IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I'VE LOOKED AT IT, AND I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE DATA. MY RECOLLECTION IS -- I THINK WE FOUND SOME AS LOW AS FOUR OR FIVE PARTS PER BILLION, AND SOME AS HIGH AS -- I CAN'T REMEMBER -- TWENTY, THIRTY PARTS PER BILLION, IS MY GUESS. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE DATA, BUT I THINK THAT'S--- Q. THIS -- CAN YOU GIVE ME ANY IDEA OF WHY THERE WAS THIS RANGE, OR WAS IT GEOGRAPHICAL? A. IT WAS GEOGRAPHICAL. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1237 Q. AND CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT TO WHAT? A. AGAIN, AS I SAID, WITHOUT MY DOCUMENTS FROM IT, I CAN'T REMEMBER ALL THE DETAILS. I'M DOING THIS FROM MEMORY. BUT, SURPRISINGLY, ALL THE VALUES TO THE NORTH, THAT I REMEMBER, WERE EXTREMELY LOW. WE FOUND ONE NUMBER DEEP IN THE SOUTH, SOUTHERN END, THAT WE TOOK -- I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THE MAP -- BUT IT WAS QUITE FAR SOUTH, WAY SOUTH IN THE PARK, I THINK THAT WAS JUST ONE SITE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---AND THAT'S NOT UNUSUAL. YOU MAY FIND A SITE THAT IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT SITE. Q. MAYBE A BEAR WAS THERE, OR SOMETHING? A. PROBABLY NOT A BEAR, BUT SOMETHING HAS BEEN THERE. Q. WELL, NOT A BEAR, BUT -- NOT DOWN THERE, YOU'RE RIGHT. OKAY. A. BUT, BY AND LARGE, THE NUMBERS WERE LOW. Q. I'M CURIOUS AS TO WHY YOU HAVE SUCH GOOD RECALL OF THE SOILS, BUT NOT SUCH GOOD RECALL OF THE WATER TESTING THAT YOU DID. IS THERE SOME REASON FOR THAT? A. WELL, THE WATER WAS DONE IMMEDIATELY, FOR ONE THING, AND WE DID THAT AND TURNED THAT DATA OVER A LONG DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1238 TIME AGO. Q. LAST JUNE? A. WELL, WE DID IT IN JUNE, BUT WE TURNED IT OVER WITHIN LAST FALL. Q. OKAY. AND THE SOIL, WHEN DID YOU DO THAT? A. WELL, WE'VE BEEN DOING IT. WE'VE BEEN ANALYZING IT. WE'VE BEEN DOING IT--- Q. OH, YOU'VE CONTINUED TO ANALYZE THE SOIL? A. RIGHT. Q. YOU DON'T HAVE THE WATER ANYMORE? A. NO, I -- YOU MEAN DO I PERSONALLY--- Q. NO, YOUR LAB, OR WHEREVER YOU ANALYZE. WHEN YOU SAY YOU TURNED IT OVER, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? YOU GAVE IT TO SOMEBODY ELSE? A. YES, THIS WAS ALL -- WE HAD TO DO THIS UNDER -- I FORGET WHAT THE AGREEMENT IS -- BUT WE TURNED THE NUMBERS OVER TO THE--- Q. OH, THE NUMBERS YOU TURNED OVER? A. YEAH, THE NUMBERS, YES, YES, YES, THE NUMBERS. Q. AND YOU KEPT THE WATER? A. WELL, I'M SURE THE WATER HAS BEEN--- Q. OKAY. A. ---DISPOSED OF. Q. BUT THE SOIL YOU KEPT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1239 A. YES, WE'VE BEEN ANALYZING THE SOILS. WE'VE BEEN DOING ANALYSES ON THOSE. Q. OKAY. ANY OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT THIS LAST AREA THAT YOU'VE BEEN DESCRIBING, THE ENP? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, THE ONLY THING, AS I SAID, IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER REGIONS, AND IT HAS BEEN, AND THE SOILS ARE QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THEY'RE SO SHALLOW, AND, IN MANY PLACES, ALMOST NONEXISTENT COMPARED TO THE NORTHERN PARTS. Q. ANY OTHER AREAS? A. AND ONE OTHER THING I MIGHT MENTION IS THERE IS -- WE DID FIND, WHEN WE TOOK SOME CORES THERE, THAT THERE WAS EVIDENCE OF ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS THERE. WE HAVE FOUND SOME REDUCED SOIL CONDITIONS INDICATED BY -- AND THESE WERE PRIMARILY DOWN IN THE -- WAY IN THE SOUTHERN END OF THE MANGROVE AREAS AND SO FORTH, BUT SULFIDE AND INTRUSIONS OF MARINE WATER. Q. WOULD THAT BE--- COURT REPORTER: I'M SORRY, COULD YOU REPEAT THAT? A. INTRUSIONS OF MARINE WATER. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ANAEROBIC CONDITION THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1240 YOU FOUND DOWN THERE WAS RELATED TO THE FACT THAT IT WAS CONTIGUOUS TO THE OCEAN? A. I BELIEVE IN THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF THAT PART OF THE PARK, THERE ARE REDUCED CONDITIONS THERE, A RESULT OF SULFUR BROUGHT IN FROM EARLIER TIMES, AND MARINE INPUTS, YEAH. IT WOULD BE -- IT WOULD BE TYPICAL FOR THAT SYSTEM, THROUGHOUT, TO HAVE REDUCED CONDITIONS. Q. WHAT SYSTEM? A. THE EVERGLADES PARK SYSTEM, THE WHOLE EVERGLADES. Q. THE WHOLE EVERGLADES, TO HAVE REDUCED--- A. SOIL CONDITIONS. Q. OKAY, ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE PARK, IN THIS OVERVIEW? A. IT WAS BEAUTIFUL. IT DID NOT LOOK -- IT LOOKED ABOUT WHAT I THOUGHT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE FROM THE PICTURES I HAD SEEN, WHAT I HAD TOURED MANY YEARS EARLIER. Q. ANY OTHER AREAS, OR HAVE YOU GIVEN ME ALL THE DIVISIONS THAT YOU WOULD MAKE IN THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, THERE'S THE BIG CYPRESS, BUT THAT'S NOT THE EVERGLADES, PER SE. Q. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1241 A. I MEAN, I'VE DONE SOME WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT ON THE BIG CYPRESS. Q. I ASSUME YOU WOULD CONSIDER THE EAA A DIFFERENT AREA, A SEPARATE AREA? A. IT'S A SEPARATE AREA, YES. Q. IS IT SIMILAR TO ANY OF THE OTHERS? A. IN WHAT WAY SIMILAR? Q. IN ANY WAY, IN TERMS OF THE WAY THAT WE'RE DES -- THE WAY YOU'RE DESCRIBING THIS DIVISION OF THE EVERGLADES. A. WELL, IT IS ONLY SIMILAR IN THE SENSE THAT IT HAS THE SAME TYPES OF CANAL AND STRUCTURES AND IT HAS SOME OF THE SAME PHYSICAL BOUNDARIES ON IT, IN TERMS OF ITS -- ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ITS ECOLOGY? Q. YEAH. A. WELL, IT IS ACTUALLY, SURPRISINGLY, MORE SIMILAR THAN I ORIGINALLY HAD THOUGHT IN ONE SENSE. IT IS, PRIMARILY, A MONOCULTURE OF GRASSES. THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS. BUT, I MEAN, IN OTHER WORDS, IT IS IN MANY RESPECTS, IT IS A MONOCULTURE. IT IS A SORT OF AGRI-ECOSYSTEM, BUT IT IS FUNCTIONING, IN SOME REGARDS -- WHICH SOME PEOPLE WOULD BE SURPRISED ABOUT -- BUT SUGARCANE IS A GRASS SPECIES THAT DOES MANY OF THE SAME THINGS THAT SOME OF THE NATIVE SPECIES DO. I'M NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1242 EQUILIBRATING THAT ECOLOGICALLY, AND GIVING A JUDGMENT ON THAT, EXCEPT THAT IT HAS MANY OF THE SAME FUNCTIONS. IT TRANSPIRES, IT GROWS, PRODUCES, SO -- BUT IT IS NO LONGER -- IT NO LONGER RESEMBLES THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES. IT'S AN AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY. Q. ANY OTHER AREAS THAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE SEPARATE OR DIFFERENT FROM? A. WELL, PART OF -- IF YOU WANT TO GO ON THE WHOLE LANDSCAPE BASE, THE LAST PART OF THAT IS, OF COURSE, IS THE LAKE OKEECHOBEE ITSELF, AND THE KISSIMMEE COMPONENT, WHICH IS CRITICAL TO THE VIABILITY OF THE EVERGLADES PROPER. Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK IN WHAT IS CALLED THE WESTERN BASIN, THAT AREA; OR DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WESTERN BASIN IS? A. YEAH, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. NOT -- NOT -- REFRESH MY MEMORY TO MAKE SURE THAT I'M NOT EXCLUDING IT. Q. IT'S JUST TO THE WEST OF THE AGRICULTURAL AREA. IT'S NOT INCLUDED IN THE SWIM PLAN. A. NO, I REALLY HAVEN'T DONE ANY WORK THERE. Q. NOW, IN DEVISING A REGULATORY SCHEME FOR THE EVERGLADES, I TAKE IT YOU WOULD ASSUME, OR YOU WOULD BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THESE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1243 VARYING AREAS? A. ARE YOU ASKING THE DIFFERENCES OF THOSE AREAS? Q. YEAH. A. YES. Q. AND, FOR INSTANCE, YOU COULDN'T -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. WOULD A REGULATOR NEED TO DETERMINE WHAT THE BACKGROUND LEVEL OF, SAY, PHOSPHORUS, IN THE SOIL AND WATER WOULD BE? WOULD THAT BE A HELPFUL THING FOR A REGULATOR TO KNOW? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. THE BACKGROUND LEVELS OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOILS AND WATER? Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, IT WOULD BE ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT ONE MIGHT USE. IT WOULDN'T BE THE TOTAL PIECE OF INFORMATION. Q. HAVE YOU ATTEMPTED TO DETERMINE THAT AS PART OF YOUR WORK? A. THE BACKGROUND? Q. THE BACKGROUND LEVELS, YEAH. A. FOR REGULATION? Q. WELL, FOR -- NO, FORGETTING REGULATION A MINUTE -- HAVE YOU, IN YOUR WORK, ATTEMPTED TO DETERMINE THE BACKGROUND LEVELS OF SOIL AND WATER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1244 PHOSPHORUS? A. WELL, YES, WE HAVE TRIED TO. AND NOW THAT WE HAVE GAINED ACCESS TO THE LOXAHATCHEE AND THE PARK, WE WILL TRYING TO COME UP WITH SORT OF A PICTURE OF THE -- WHAT WE MIGHT CONSIDER THE SOIL BASE -- I'M GOING TO CALL IT THAT -- A SOIL BASE MAP, IN A SENSE OF SOIL CONDITIONS. HOWEVER, DR. REDDY HAS DONE A MUCH MORE GEOGRAPHIC PATTERN ANALYSIS OF THOSE SYSTEMS; BUT WE WILL HAVE MORE DETAIL IN CERTAIN AREAS THAN HE WILL HAVE. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS A BACKGROUND LEVEL THAT COULD BE APPLIED TO THE ENTIRE EVERGLADES? A. NO. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE LEVELS THAT YOU FOUND IN THE PARK ARE WHAT CAN BE TERMED BACKGROUND LEVELS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, ONLY BY -- AS I SAID, ONLY BY REGION. AS I SAID, THE LEVELS WE FOUND IN THE PARK, I THINK DEMONSTRATE HOW THE SYSTEM HAS WORKED AND FLOWED, AND THEY REPRESENT, BY AND LARGE, WHAT THE PARK HAS BEEN, I THINK, HISTORICALLY. THEY -- FOR THE MOST PART, THEY SHOW WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER, FOR THAT SOUTHERN REGION, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1245 VERY REPRESENTATIVE VALUES--- Q. AND--- A. ---BASELINE VALUES. Q. ---WOULD YOU EXPECT TO FIND A DIFFERENT BACKGROUND LEVEL IN EACH OF THE REGIONS THAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR ME? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT JUST PHOSPHORUS, OR ANYTHING? Q. PHOSPHORUS. A. I WOULD EXPECT FOR CONDITIONS THAT WE HAVE SORT OF GENERALLY OUTLINED, BUT NOT IN GREAT DETAIL, THAT YOU WOULD FIND DIFFERENT LEVELS OF PHOSPHORUS HISTORICALLY IN THOSE AREAS. Q. AND ARE YOU COMFORTABLE THAT YOU HAVE FOUND THOSE LEVELS WITH REGARD TO THE PARK? A. YES. Q. HOW ABOUT WITH REGARD TO WCA-3? A. FOR WHAT I HAVE -- FOR WHAT I HAVE ANALYZED, REMEMBERING I HAVE NOT ANALYZED ALL OF 3, BUT REVIEWING DR. REDDY'S DATA, AND LOOKING AT HIS NUMBERS, BECAUSE HE DID MORE PATTERN ANALYSIS, I THINK THE TWO OF US, OUR NUMBERS ARE VERY CLOSE. I THINK THAT WE WOULD CONCUR THAT, BY AND LARGE, THAT'S -- THERE ARE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1246 BACKGROUND LEVELS. Q. THE BACKGROUND LEVELS THAT YOU FOUND -- THE LEVELS THAT YOU FOUND IN THE WCA-3, YOU BELIEVE WOULD BE CONSIDERED TO BE THE BACKGROUND LEVELS? A. FOR -- FOR -- WE'RE TALKING REGION BY REGION NOW IS WHAT--- Q. JUST WCA-3, AT THIS POINT. A. YEAH. THERE MAY BE SOME -- THERE ARE SOME -- THERE MAY BE SOME AREAS -- AS I SAID, I DID NOT DO A COMPLETE SURVEY, SO I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT TOO BROAD. BUT THE LEVELS THAT I FOUND, I THINK MATCHING UP WITH DR. REDDY'S ISOPLETHS, I THINK, SHOW -- BUT THERE ARE A FEW ISOLATED SPOTS THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE -- BUT BY AND LARGE SHOW. Q. AND JUST FOR REFERENCE, IN THE PARK, IT RANGED FROM FOUR TO FIVE PARTS PER BILLION, TO A HIGH LEVEL OF TWENTY TO THIRTY PARTS PER BILLION IN THE WATER? MR. BURGESS: OBJECTION TO THE FORM. A. YEAH, THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION. AS I SAID, I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES, BUT -- I MIGHT BE OFF A LITTLE BIT ON THAT, BUT--- Q. AND IN WCA-3, YOU SAID IT RANGED FROM TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE PARTS PER BILLION, THE BACKGROUND LEVEL. A. YEAH, THAT'S AGAIN FROM RECOLLECTION. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1247 Q. NOW, HAVE YOU FOUND WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE THE BACKGROUND LEVEL IN WCA-2? A. I THINK WE HAVE REPRESENTATIVE NUMBERS FOR 2. WE -- THEY WOULD RUN SOMEWHERE IN THE TEN TO TWENTY, TWENTY-FIVE RANGE. Q. THAT WOULD BE FOR ALL OF 2, OR JUST 2A, OR HOW WOULD YOU--- A. YOU SAID THE BACKGROUND LEVEL? Q. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. IN ALL OF 2, OR ARE YOU DIVIDING IT INTO 2A AND 2--- A. 2A AND 2B, YOU MEAN? Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, 2B HAS ABOUT THE SAME NUMBERS -- THE SAME NUMBERS CAN RUN IN THERE, WITH THAT TEN TO TWENTY RANGE. IT DEPENDS ON THE SEASON AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THOSE NUMBERS DEPEND ON WHETHER YOU COME AFTER A RAINFALL, AFTER A FIRE, OR WHATEVER, BUT IT'S IN, YOU KNOW--- Q. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WATER? A. WATER. YOU ASKED FOR WATER. Q. OKAY. AND THAT WOULD BE TEN TO TWENTY IN 2A AND 2B? MR. BURGESS: TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE. MR. REID: I'M SORRY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1248 MR. BURGESS: AND WHAT IS THE MEASUREMENT? A. PARTS PER BILLION, TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. AND HAVE YOU DISCOVERED WHAT THE BACKGROUND LEVELS WOULD BE IN LOXAHATCHEE? A. NOW, WHEN WE SAY BACKGROUND, THIS IS WHERE I'M -- WE'RE -- YOU SAID -- TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND, I DIDN'T SAY THE WHOLE REGION. AND YOU SAID WHAT HAD I FOUND FOR BACKGROUND, WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER BACKGROUND LEVELS. Q. YEAH. AND MY UNDERSTANDING OF BACKGROUND LEVELS WOULD BE WHAT WOULD EXIST WITHOUT ANY -- WHAT EXISTED BEFORE THE PROJECT, IN WHAT WE MIGHT CALL THE PRISTINE CONDITION. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN BY BACKGROUND? A. NO. Q. TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN. A. I MEAN, BY BACKGROUND WHAT WE'RE FINDING, AND WHAT WE HAVE FOUND OVER THE LAST HALF DECADE, I MEAN, IN THOSE AREAS, AND WHAT -- YOU JUST LOOK AT THE LITERATURE, AND YOU SEE WHAT YOU FOUND AND WHAT YOU'VE MEASURED AND SO FORTH. Q. AND WOULD THIS BE IN AREAS THAT -- OR HOW DO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1249 YOU DESCRIBE, WHEN YOU SAY YOU FOUND THEM, YOU FOUND THEM WHERE? A. WELL, THAT'S IF YOU TYPICALLY TAKE A WATER SAMPLE, LET'S SAY. YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL THERE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE -- IT DEPENDS ON THE TIME OF THE DAY. WE'RE STARTING TO FIND SOME INTERESTING THINGS THERE. IT DEPENDS ON, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU TAKE -- WE HAVE JUST RECENTLY FOUND, IF YOU TAKE A SAMPLE IN THE OPEN WATER, YOU MAY FIND, LET'S SAY, TWELVE. IF YOU TAKE IT INSIDE THE PERIPHYTON MATTE, YOU MAY FIND FORTY-SIX PARTS PER BILLION. WE'RE NOT EXACTLY SURE WHY. THIS IS IN THE BACKGROUND LEVEL, AREA, SO THAT'S THE NUMBERS WE'VE BEEN FINDING. Q. WOULD BACKGROUND LEVEL EQUATE TO NATURALLY OCCURRING? IS THAT A PROPER DESCRIPTION? A. YEAH, I WOULD SAY SORT OF NATURALLY OCCURRING. AS I SAID, THOUGH, IT'S USUALLY NOT -- THE REASON I'M GIVING YOU A RANGE, IT'S NOT A NUMBER--- Q. SURE. A. ---IT'S NOT A SINGLE NUMBER. Q. HOW ABOUT IN THE LOXAHATCHEE, THEN? A. I HAVEN'T DONE WATER SAMPLING, REALLY, IN THE LOXAHATCHEE, THAT I RECALL. I DID SOIL SAMPLING IN THE LOXAHATCHEE. I HAVE ONLY SEEN NUMBERS FROM THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1250 LOXAHATCHEE, BUT I HAVEN'T TAKEN NUMBERS IN THE LOXAHATCHEE, THAT I REMEMBER. NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT I HAVE. I HAVE SEEN SOME FROM DR. DAVIS, AND I HAVE SEEN SOME FROM THE LOXAHATCHEE STAFF, AND--- Q. YOU SAID YOU TOOK SOIL SAMPLES IN THE LOXAHATCHEE? A. CORRECT. Q. TELL ME WHAT THE RANGE WAS IN LOXAHATCHEE IN THE SOILS--- A. UH, THAT'S A WHILE AGO, NOW I HAVE TO REMEMBER--- Q. ---PHOSPHORUS. A. YEAH. I'M TRYING TO THINK. HUM, WE COMPLETED THOSE ANALYSIS -- THAT WAS THE FIRST SET WE DID. THAT'S WHY THOSE ARE A LITTLE MORE VAGUE IN MY MIND. Q. SURE. A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THEY WERE TWO HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD, IN THE CENTER PORTION, WHICH IS THE MAJOR -- SORT OF DOME, CENTER PORTION OF THE LOXAHATCHEE. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE HIGHER. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THREE HUNDRED, THREE-FIFTY, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. WHAT -- IN THE DOME, OR--- A. YEAH, THE DOME AREA. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1251 Q. OKAY. SO, BETWEEN TWO TO THREE HUNDRED? A. WELL, I'D SAY TWO TO FOUR HUNDRED TO BE SAFE, SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE. BUT, AGAIN, I'M DOING THIS FROM MEMORY, AND I CAN'T--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT THEY WOULD BE WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER BACKGROUND. Q. AND WHAT ABOUT ELSEWHERE? A. OVER NEAR THE CANALS -- WE ONLY TOOK SEVEN, I BELIEVE SEVEN CORE SAMPLES. DR. PATRICK TOOK MOST OF THE SAMPLES IN THE LOXAHATCHEE. I WAS REALLY JUST -- WE WERE SORT OF COMPARING OUR LABS, FOR INTER-LAB COMPARISONS IN A GENERAL WAY. WE DIDN'T -- AND TO SEE WHAT WE WERE DOING, AND SPLITTING UP THE WORK, SO WE TOOK FEWER SAMPLES. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER, BUT THEY -- THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN -- I JUST -- THESE ARE -- IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A THOUSAND. I CAN'T REMEMBER, A THOUSAND. THEY COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE HIGHER. THEY COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE LOWER. I JUST CAN'T REMEMBER. BUT A THOUSAND PARTS PER MILLION. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN WITHIN A COUPLE HUNDRED -- WITHIN A COUPLE HUNDRED METERS OF THE CANAL -- A HUNDRED METERS OF THE CANAL. Q. AND DID YOU HAVE -- DID YOU TAKE ANY WATER SAMPLES IN THE LOXAHATCHEE, OR ANYBODY WORKING WITH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1252 YOU? MR. BURGESS: ASKED AND ANSWERED, OBJECTION. MR. REID: I CAN'T REMEMBER THE ANSWER. A. WELL, AS I SAID EARLIER, I'M THINKING BACK, I DON'T -- TO MY RECOLLECTION, WE DID NOT TAKE WATER SAMPLES. DR. DAVIS WAS ON THAT TRIP, AND HE TOOK THE WATER SAMPLES, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT. I TOOK FIELD pH MEASUREMENTS, HELPING HIM ON THAT, AND FIELD OXYGEN MEASUREMENTS. Q. THIS WAS JOHN DAVIS? A. JOHN DAVIS, BUT NOT JOHN HENRY DAVIS. Q. RIGHT. I WOULDN'T EXPECT THAT HE'D BE THERE. A. IT WOULD BE NICE IF HE WAS. WE COULD REALLY ASK HIM A LOT OF QUESTIONS. Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT LEVELS YOU FOUND IN THE WATER, IN THE SAMPLES? A. FOR PHOSPHORUS? Q. YES, IN THE SAMPLES THAT WERE TAKEN WHEN YOU WERE THERE. A. VAGUELY. Q. GIVE ME THE RANGE, TO THE BEST YOU CAN RECALL. AND I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE ESTIMATING, AND THIS WOULD BE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1253 CONFIRMED BY A DOCUMENT SOMEWHERE. MR. BURGESS: I WOULD JUST STATE FOR THE RECORD TO BE CONFIRMED IN THE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE SUPPLIED TO ALL PARTIES, PURSUANT TO THE ENTRY AND ACCESS ORDER. MR. REID: SURE, I UNDERSTAND THAT. Q. (BY MR. REID) SO, GO AHEAD AND GIVE ME THAT RANGE. A. THIS IS REALLY VAGUE, BECAUSE IT'S OFF A SHEET OF NUMBERS. I -- TWELVE, FIFTEEN -- I DON'T KNOW -- TEN, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. PARTS PER BILLION? A. PARTS PER BILLION. Q. AND THAT'S IN THE DOME AREA? A. RIGHT; IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A LITTLE LOWER IN THERE. I JUST -- THOSE ARE IN THE BALLPARK, I MEAN. Q. DO YOU REMEMBER ANY OTHER AREAS NEAR THE CANALS OR--- A. HUH-UH (NO), I DON'T, SORRY. Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING AS A CONSULTANT FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. IS THAT CORRECT? A. I HAD IN THE PAST WORKED FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, THAT'S CORRECT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1254 Q. WHEN DID YOU LAST DO ANY CONSULTING WORK FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. I'M CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. FOR THE LEAGUE PROPER, I DON'T -- PROBABLY A YEAR AGO, MAYBE LONGER. Q. AND WHEN I SAY THAT -- OR WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOU DOING CONSULTING, THAT WOULD BE THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, OR IS THIS CURTIS RICHARDSON, INDIVIDUALLY? A. THE WETLAND CENTER DOES NOT -- THE WETLAND CENTER DOES NOT CONSULT, PER SE. Q. OKAY. I WANT TO QUICKLY -- I DON'T WANT TO REHASH, BECAUSE I READ YOUR -- I WAS HERE AND I READ IT ALSO, YOUR EARLIER DEPOSITION -- I WANT TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT THE VARIOUS PLAYERS, AND WHO'S DOING WHAT FOR WHOM, AND TO WHOM AND SO FORTH. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT YOU MET GEORGE WEDGWORTH WHEN HE WAS IN CHARGE OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, BACK IN THE EIGHTIES, IS THAT CORRECT? A. I MET HIM, YES. Q. OKAY. AND WERE YOU PERSONALLY HIRED BY HIM, AS A CONSULTANT, TO WORK ON BEHALF OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. WELL, LET ME STEP BACK. THE FIRST PERSON I MET WAS ACTUALLY ED BARBER AT A CONFERENCE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1255 Q. RIGHT, AND THEN HE BROUGHT YOU TOGETHER WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH? A. AND GEORGE ASKED WHETHER OR NOT THE WETLANDS -- THE GROUP AT DUKE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN WORKING ON SOME PROJECTS OR THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE AN INTEREST IN, AND WE PUT TOGETHER A PROPOSAL ON THAT. THAT WAS OUR -- THAT WAS OUR FIRST MEETING. Q. SO, THE WETLANDS WERE -- IT WASN'T A CENTER AT THE TIME? A. IT WAS NOT A CENTER, IT WAS A PROGRAM. Q. AND THE WETLANDS GROUP MADE A PROPOSAL FOR A GRANT TO THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND WAS IT -- WAS IT ACCEPTED? A. YES, IT WAS FUNDED. Q. OR FUNDED -- THAT'S THE WORD I COULDN'T THINK OF. AND WHAT WAS THAT STUDY? A. THAT WAS THE PRELIMINARY PHASE ONE STUDY THAT WAS TO LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF WATER AND NUTRIENTS ON CATTAILS AND COMMUNITIES IN THE EVERGLADES. IT WAS A PILOT STUDY IN THE SENSE THAT WE WERE TO TRY TO OBTAIN BACKGROUND INFORMATION IN NUMBERS OF AREAS, TO TRY TO HONE IN ON A FULL-BLOWN STUDY. Q. AND HOW LONG DID THAT GRANT LAST? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1256 A. ONE YEAR, APPROXIMATELY. Q. DO YOU RECALL THE AMOUNT OF MONEY INVOLVED IN THAT GRANT? A. APPROXIMATELY. Q. AND HOW MUCH WAS THAT? A. THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS ($350,000.00). Q. OKAY. A. THAT'S AN APPROXIMATE AMOUNT. Q. ALL RIGHT. TELL ME THE NEXT THING THAT THE WETLANDS GROUP DID FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. A. THAT WAS THE -- IF I'VE GOT THE TIMES CORRECT, THAT THE WETLANDS PROGRAM AT DUKE, THAT WAS OUR LAST FULL CONTRACT WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, PER SE. Q. YOUR FIRST AND LAST THEN? A. RIGHT. Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? DID THE WETLANDS GROUP TURN INTO SOMETHING ELSE, OR DID THE--- A. WELL, AS I SAID, WE HAD A PROGRAM. WE HAD A PROGRAM FOR SIX OR SEVEN YEARS PRIOR TO THAT, SO -- BUT OUR PROGRAM ESSENTIALLY APPLIED -- WELL, THERE WAS A NEW ENTITY THAT WAS CREATED. THEY WERE GOING TO PROTECTION DISTRICT. Q. OKAY. SO, THE NEXT WORK THAT YOU DID -- WELL, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1257 STRIKE THAT. WAS THERE ANY IDEA IN THIS FIRST GRANT THAT YOU WOULD PROVIDE EXPERT TESTIMONY, YOU OR ANY OF YOUR COLLEAGUES WOULD PROVIDE EXPERT TESTIMONY IN ANY FORM? A. NOT AT THAT TIME. Q. SO, THAT REALLY HAD NOTHING TO DO -- THAT WAS NOT LITIGATION RELATED? A. NO. MR. BURGESS: OBJECTION. Q. (BY MR. REID) WHAT IS THE NEXT THING THAT YOU OR ANY OF YOUR GROUP DID WITH ANY OF THESE FOLKS? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. THE NEXT THING WE DID -- WELL, WE DIDN'T DO -- AS I SAID, THAT WAS OUR LAST--- Q. RIGHT. FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. ---THAT WAS OUR LAST FORMAL CONTRACT WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. WHAT IS -- WAS THERE -- THERE WAS ANOTHER GRANT, HOWEVER, RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES IN SOME MANNER? A. RIGHT. THE EVERGLADES PROTECTION DISTRICT WAS ESTABLISHED. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT ALL OF THE DETAILS. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING IT IS A STATE -- IT CAME THROUGH TALLAHASSEE. IT'S A STATE ENTITY. IT HAS THE ABILITY TO RAISE TAX FUNDS PRIMARILY FOR RESEARCH ON EVERGLADES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1258 ISSUES, AND WE WERE, ALONG WITH, I GUESS SOME OTHER PEOPLE -- I'M NOT SURE WHO -- WE WERE ASKED TO FINALIZE OUR INFORMATION AND PUT TOGETHER A GRANT PROPOSAL TO THEM. Q. AND DID YOU DO A GRANT PROPOSAL? A. YES, WE DID. Q. AND WAS IT FUNDED? A. YES, IT WAS. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT GRANT? A. THAT WAS TO -- WELL, ORIGINALLY, THAT GRANT WAS TO LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS IN THE HYDROPERIOD ON EVERGLADES COMMUNITIES. IT WAS TO LOOK AT THE EXPANSION OF CATTAIL TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE ECOLOGICAL FACTORS THAT WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR CATTAIL EXPANSION. IT HAD A COMPONENT -- THAT WAS A MAJOR COMPONENT OF THAT PROPOSAL. IT HAD A COMPONENT TO LOOK AT THE HOLEYLAND, IN TERMS OF ANALYZING THE WATER AND NUTRIENT STORAGE CHARACTERISTICS OF THAT AREA, AS WELL AS DETERMINE THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL FOR WCA-2A. Q. THAT'S THE PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL? A. CORRECT. AND WE WERE TRYING TO ELUCIDATE THE PHOSPHORUS CYCLE, TO TRY TO DETERMINE HOW PHOSPHORUS MOVES, IS STORED, IS RELEASED, IS TAKEN UP, THE VARIOUS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1259 BIOGEOCHEMISTRY OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE EVERGLADES. Q. WHEN WAS THAT GRANT FUNDED? A. 1990 -- I ALWAYS GET THIS MIXED UP, BECAUSE WHEN IT WAS APPROVED, AND WHEN IT FINALLY GOT FUNDED IS TWO DIFFERENT TIMES. I BELIEVE WE GOT OUR FIRST -- I THINK IT STARTED IN JANUARY OF '91, I THINK, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. AND HOW LONG DID THE PROGRAM -- HOW LONG DID THE GRANT LAST? A. IT IS STILL CONTINUING TO THIS DAY. IT'S A FIVE-YEAR--- Q. FIVE-YEAR PROGRAM? A. YEAH. SO, I GUESS MAYBE IT WAS '90. I'M TRYING TO THINK. BECAUSE THIS IS THE '94, THIS IS THE LAST YEAR, SO IT'S--- Q. ALL RIGHT, AND WHAT WAS THE AMOUNT OF THAT GRANT? A. IT'S A YEAR-TO-YEAR GRANT. I BELIEVE THE FIRST YEAR IT WAS FUNDED AT -- AGAIN, THESE NUMBERS ARE ONLY APPROXIMATE, SEVEN HUNDRED AND NINETY THOUSAND DOLLARS ($790,000.00). Q. WHAT WAS THE SECOND YEAR? A. IN TERMS OF? Q. THE AMOUNT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1260 A. AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW -- WE'VE TURNED OVER ALL THESE RECORDS. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT IT'S EIGHT -- IT WENT UP A BIT, IT WAS LIKE, I DON'T KNOW, EIGHTY TWENTY-THREE OR EIGHT FIFTY-THREE. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. Q. GIVE ME EACH OF THE YEARS. A. I THINK THE THIRD YEAR WAS EIGHT NINETY-THREE. THEN I THINK THE FOURTH YEAR IS NINE TWENTY-THREE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND I THINK THIS LAST YEAR IS NINE SIXTEEN. Q. SO, IT WENT DOWN? A. IT'S GOING DOWN. Q. WHY IS THAT? A. EQUIPMENT WE PURCHASED. THE EQUIPMENT AND THE DOSING INSTRUCTION HAS BEEN COMPLETED, AND SO PRIMARILY MOST OF THE MAJOR UPFRONT OPERATIONS WERE IN MORE OF A -- AS FAR AS EQUIPMENT AND BUILDING AND SO FORTH, WE'RE IN MORE OF A MAINTENANCE ROLE THAN WE WERE. Q. AND IS THIS GRANT THE -- THE WORK FROM THIS GRANT, DOES THIS RESULT IN THIS ANNUAL REPORT I SEE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. THE LAST ANNUAL REPORT I'VE SEEN IS APRIL OF '93, UPDATED IN APRIL OF '93. IT WAS DECEMBER OF '92, UPDATED IN APRIL OF '93. IS THERE ANOTHER ONE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1261 A. THERE IS NOT. Q. WHY IS THAT? A. BECAUSE WE ARE WORKING ON IT, AS WE SPEAK. Q. SO, WE'RE LATE THIS YEAR? A. WELL, IT'S NOT APRIL YET. Q. WELL, BUT IT WAS DONE -- THE PREVIOUS ONE WAS DONE IN DECEMBER OF '92, SO--- A. RIGHT, WE HAVE PROVIDED QUARTERLY REPORTS. WE'VE GONE TO A DIFFERENT REPORTING SCENARIO. WE HAVE MONTHLY REPORTS. WE HAVE QUARTERLY REPORTS. AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE PUBLISHED REPORTS NOW. WE HAVE PAPERS THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE. BUT, WE WILL BE PRODUCING A -- AN ANNUAL VOLUME. WE ARE WORKING ON IT RIGHT NOW, BUT WE HAVE BEEN SOMEWHAT OVERWHELMED WITH NOT ONLY THE EXPERIMENTS AND THE THINGS GOING ON, THE DATA COLLECTION ANALYSIS, BUT THE LITIGATION COMPONENTS HAVE KEPT US RATHER BUSY. Q. WHEN HAVE THE QUARTERLY REPORTS COME OUT, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I'VE SEEN ANY QUARTERLY REPORTS IN THE LAST YEAR. A. EVERY QUARTER, JANUARY--- Q. SO, THERE WOULD BE A JANUARY '94 AND THERE WOULD BE A MARCH '94? A. YEAH, WE'VE CHANGED OUR CYCLE SLIGHTLY, AND I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1262 FORGET WHAT EPD HAS ASKED US TO DO, BUT WHATEVER -- I FORGET -- SO DON'T HOLD ME TO JANUARY, OR WHATEVER IT IS; BUT THEY MAY HAVE ASKED US TO GO TO FEBRUARY, AND THEN THREE MONTHS LATER -- I FORGET EXACTLY -- BUT THERE HAS BEEN A MONTHLY REPORT, AND THEN THERE HAS BEEN A QUARTERLY REPORT WHICH IS ALL PUBLIC RECORD. AND IT'S BEEN--- Q. OKAY. BY THE WAY, WHEN WAS THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE GRANT, THE ONE-YEAR GRANT, THE FIRST ONE THAT YOU MENTIONED? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS '89. Q. NOW HAVE THERE BEEN ANY OTHER GRANTS -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. I ASSUME THIS EPD GRANT WAS TAKEN OVER AT SOME POINT BY WHAT BECAME THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? A. WELL, IT WAS A PROGRAM AT THE CENTER. THE CENTER WAS ESTABLISHED INDEPENDENTLY OF THIS GRANT. THIS GRANT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CENTER. Q. NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT THE ORIGINAL GRANT WAS GIVEN TO WHOM, IN 19--- A. ALL GRANTS ARE GIVEN TO DUKE UNIVERSITY. Q. AND THE FIRST YEAR, BEFORE THE -- AND WHEN WAS THE CENTER CREATED? A. THE PAPERWORK AND -- ORIGINALLY, WE -- WE STARTED PROPOSING A CENTER IN -- I CAN'T REMEMBER -- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1263 '86 OR '87, TO THE UNIVERSITY. WE PROVIDED THE BACKGROUND WORK AND MATERIAL. AND THAT TOOK TWO OR THREE YEARS TO GET ALL THE PIECES IN PLACE. IT TAKES ABOUT FIVE YEARS TO GET A CENTER ESTABLISHED BY THE DUKE BOARD OF TRUSTEES, SO IT WAS IN PROGRESS DURING THAT TIME. IT WAS OFFICIALLY ESTABLISHED, I BELIEVE, IN '90, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT--- Q. AND--- A. ---YOU KNOW, I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY ANYMORE. Q. NOW, WHAT IS THE NEXT GRANT THAT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, OR YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE WETLANDS AREA HAVE, RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. THE NEXT GRANT -- WELL, I MEAN THIS IS THE MAJOR GRANT THAT WE HAVE WITH THE EVERGLADES. WE DON'T HAVE, REALLY, ANY OTHER GRANTS, PER SE, WITH THE EVERGLADES. Q. WELL, THAT'S MY QUESTION, YOU DON'T? YOU HAVE NO GRANTS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. NO. Q. YOU HAVE NO GRANTS WITH THE COOPERATIVE? A. NO. Q. FRUIT AND VEGETABLE GROWERS? A. NO. Q. OR THE EPD, OTHER THAN THE ONE YOU TOLD ME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1264 ABOUT? A. NO, OTHER THAN THIS. Q. NOW, HAVE YOU PERSONALLY BEEN RETAINED TO DO ANY WORK WITH REGARD TO THE EVERGLADES? A. BY WHOM? Q. BY ANYBODY. A. BY ANYBODY, TO DO ANY RESEARCH, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING--- Q. ANY WORK? A. YES. Q. OKAY, I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE FIRST TIME YOU PERSONALLY -- AND I ASSUME THIS WOULD BE CURTIS J. RICHARDSON, AS OPPOSED TO DUKE, OR ANYBODY ELSE. WHEN IS THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE HIRED? A. IT WOULD BE SOMETIME, I GUESS, IN '89, AND '90, MAYBE LATE '89. Q. AND WHO HIRED YOU? A. I THINK IT WOULD BE -- DIRECTLY, I THINK IT WAS -- THE PAPERWORK I DEALT WITH WAS THROUGH ANDY RACKLEY, AND--- Q. WHAT ORGANIZATION? A. IT WOULD BE THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. FOR WHAT PURPOSE? A. TO BE AN ADVISOR FOR THEM, IN TERMS OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1265 ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, REVIEW DOCUMENTS, PROVIDE THEM WITH ADVICE ON ECOLOGICAL ASPECTS. Q. WAS THIS LIKE A RETAINER? A. RIGHT. Q. IT WAS NOT A SPECIFIC TASK OR RESEARCH PROGRAM? A. IT VARIED. Q. AND DOES THAT -- STRIKE THAT. HOW LONG DID THAT RELATIONSHIP CONTINUE? A. IT JUST VARIED FROM YEAR TO YEAR DEPENDING UPON THE TASK, BUT IT -- BASICALLY, AS I SAID, TERMINATED. THAT'S WHAT WE HAD TALKED ABOUT EARLIER. IT TERMINATED, I THINK, AT LEAST A YEAR AGO, IT MAY HAVE BEEN A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. Q. LATE '92? A. YEAH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. WAS IT FORMALLY TERMINATED? IS THERE A DOCUMENT, OR--- A. NO, IT'S MY RECOLLECTION WE NEVER HAD ANY -- THAT I REMEMBER -- ANY WRITTEN DOCUMENTS, PER SE, ANY CONTRACT THAT I REMEMBER. I DON'T REMEMBER SIGNING ANY DOCUMENTS. Q. WHAT WAS THE AGREEMENT, AS FAR AS PAYING YOU FOR THAT WORK? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1266 A. JUST ON AN HOURLY BASIS, FOR WHATEVER TASK THEY WOULD ASK ME TO CONSIDER. Q. WHAT WAS YOUR HOURLY RATE? A. IN THE BEGINNING, IT WAS A HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE DOLLARS ($125.00) PER HOUR. Q. AND IT WENT UP TO WHAT IN THE END, BY THE END? A. ONE-FIFTY ($150.00). Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY SORT OF CORPORATION BY WHICH YOU DO THIS KIND OF PRIVATE WORK? A. I HAVE A CONSULTING COMPANY. Q. AND WHAT'S THAT CALLED? A. RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL. Q. WHEN WAS IT FORMED? A. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IN 19 -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHETHER IT WAS UNDER THAT NAME, BUT I'VE BEEN DOING CONSULTING SINCE THE LATE SEVENTIES. Q. IS THAT A CORPORATION? A. IT'S A SOLE PROPRIETORSHIP. Q. IS IT REGISTERED WITH ANY OF THE AUTHORITIES ANYWHERE? A. WELL, I HAVE A FEDERAL TAX IDENTIFICATION NUMBER, AND PAY MY FAIR SHARE OF TAXES. Q. YOU FILE A SEPARATE TAX RETURN FOR THAT BUSINESS, FOR INSTANCE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1267 A. I FILE SEPARATE TAX FORMS, AND PAY ESTIMATED TAXES, AND KEEP THE SEPARATE BOOKS AND SEPARATE FILES, SEPARATE RECORDS, AND SEPARATE CHECKING ACCOUNT AND--- Q. I'M SORRY, AND THE MONEY THAT COMES TO YOU THROUGH THAT COMPANY WOULD NOT BE INCLUDED IN YOUR PERSONAL INCOME TAX RETURN? A. IT'S ALL INCLUDED WITH MY PERSONAL. Q. OH, BECAUSE IT'S -- BUT I MEAN IS IT SEGREGATED AS MONEY FROM THIS PARTICULAR VENTURE? A. IT'S AS A BUSINESS, AND YOU HAVE TO FORM A BUSINESS FILE FOR IT. Q. OKAY. AND WAS THERE A TIME WHEN THIS BECAME -- WHEN YOU STARTING KEEPING THINGS SEPARATE AND RUNNING THIS AS A FORMAL BUSINESS? A. IN THE LATE SEVENTIES. Q. AND THERE'S NO LETTER OR DOCUMENTATION AT ALL CREATING THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. LIKE A CONTRACT, PER SE? Q. OR A LETTER, ANY WRITING THAT WOULD FORMALIZE OR MEMORIALIZE THE AGREEMENT? A. I'M SURE THERE ARE SOME LETTERS BACK AND FORTH THAT BASICALLY SAY, YOU KNOW -- FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO, OR SOMETHING -- THAT SAYS -- THEY WOULD ASK ME TO DO SOMETHING AND THEN I WOULD WRITE BACK AND SAY THAT I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1268 WOULD BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING AND SO FORTH. MR. GREEN: COUNSEL -- EXCUSE ME, HAVE YOU FINISHED YOUR ANSWER? JUST FOR THE RECORD, I COULD BE WRONG, BUT I BELIEVE THAT DOCUMENTS SUCH AS YOU JUST ASKED ABOUT WERE TURNED OVER IN THE FIRST--- MR. REID: THEY MAY HAVE BEEN. THEY MAY HAVE BEEN. MR. GREEN: ---AND HAVE BEEN PRODUCED. MR. REID: I DON'T REMEMBER EVER HEARING ABOUT RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL, SO THAT'S WHY I THOUGHT PERHAPS THIS IS SOMETHING NEW AND DIFFERENT. Q. (BY MR. REID) DOES -- WHERE ARE THE RECORDS OF RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL? A. WHERE ARE THE RECORDS? Q. YEAH, THE DOCUMENTS RELATING TO WORK YOU DO THROUGH RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL? A. WELL, WHAT RECORDS I HAVE -- I MEAN, I DISPOSED SOME OF MY EARLY -- I DON'T KEEP RECORD WAY BACK TO WHATEVER. I HAVE SOME RECORDS THAT -- MY TAX RECORDS ARE PRIMARILY THE ONLY RECORDS I KEEP. I DON'T HAVE--- Q. WHAT ABOUT RECORDS RELATING TO JOBS THAT YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1269 DO, TASKS THAT YOU ACCOMPLISH FOR CLIENTS? A. PRETTY MUCH, MOST OF THOSE, I -- I DON'T KEEP MANY OF THOSE RECORDS. Q. AND HAVE YOU KEPT THE RECORDS RELATING TO YOUR WORK FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE SINCE 1989 OR '90, WHEN IT BEGAN? A. NOTHING MORE THAN FINANCIAL RECORDS, I MEAN, AND THOSE ARE JUST MY TAX RETURNS. Q. HAVE YOU DISPOSED OF ANY RECORDS SINCE 1990 RELATING TO WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE THROUGH RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL? A. OH -- DISPOSED OF? NO -- I MEAN, I FROM TIME TO TIME PURGE MY FILES OF THINGS. I -- OTHER THAN REVIEWING DOCUMENTS, I MEAN, I HAVE DONE NO SPECIFIC RESEARCH, PER SE, THAT I CAN -- I MEAN, IN OTHER WORDS, IN TERMS OF RESEARCH TASKS, IT WOULD BE REVIEWS AND DOCUMENTS AND SO ON. Q. WAS THIS WORK, WHEN IT BEGAN, RELATING TO -- RELATED TO ANY PARTICULAR MATTER THAT WAS GOING ON, LITIGATION OR ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING? A. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS ANY ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING GOING ON AT THAT TIME, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER. WHEN I FIRST STARTED, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING? Q. YEAH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1270 A. GOSH, LET'S SEE, '89 OR '90, MY RECOLLECTION OF WHAT I DID IN THE FIRST YEAR OR TWO, WAS TO PRIMARILY -- THE FIRST THING THAT I DID FOR THEM WAS TO MAKE A PRESENTATION BEFORE THE BOARD -- IS IT THE BOARD OF GOVERNOR'S? WHAT IS IT? THE WATER MANAGEMENT BOARD, AND MAYBE ONE OTHER BOARD. MAYBE IT WAS ANOTHER -- IT WASN'T SAGE. IT WAS ANOTHER GROUP. AND I WAS ASKED TO PREPARE, WHICH I DID -- AND NOW THAT YOU'RE -- IN THE RECORDS -- I PREPARED A SERIES OF SLIDE TALKS AND OVERHEADS AND REVIEW OF THE ECOLOGY -- IT WAS THE FIRST THING I DID -- TO PULL TOGETHER A REVIEW OF THE ECOLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES, TO TRY TO ESTABLISH THE CONTROLLING FACTORS FOR THE EVERGLADES. AND THAT WAS MY VERY FIRST PRESENTATION TO THE BOARD, ALONG WITH AN ANALYSIS OF THE CATTAIL ISSUE. AND, FOR THAT, I DID PREPARE WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION AND SLIDES, WHICH I DID TURN OVER TO YOU. Q. WHEN? A. THE LAST TIME WE HAD--- Q. FOR THE DEPOSITION--- A. THE DEPOSITION, YEAH. YOU TOOK TWO THOUSAND OF MY SLIDES, AND--- Q. WELL, I DIDN'T, BUT SOMEBODY MUST HAVE THEM. A. ---ALL OF MY--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1271 Q. I REMEMBER SEEING YOUR SLIDES. MR. GREEN: MIKE DID. Q. (BY MR. REID) WHEN YOU SAY -- YOU KNOW, I WAS HERE, I WASN'T--- A. I UNDERSTAND. Q. ---BUT I WASN'T TAKING YOUR DEPOSITION. A. I UNDERSTAND. Q. THAT'S ALL RIGHT, I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN. A. SOMEONE HAS A WONDERFUL EVERGLADES SLIDE COLLECTION, IF THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE. Q. WHAT -- TELL ME THE OTHER TASKS THAT YOU'VE ACCOMPLISHED DURING THIS PERIOD THAT YOU'VE BEEN RETAINED BY THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. A. WELL, FOR THE FIRST YEAR OR TWO, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY, MOST OF THEM WERE -- I WAS ASKED TO MAKE ANOTHER PRESENTATION BEFORE THE STATE HOUSE COMMITTEE. I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS THE AGRICULTURE COMMITTEE, OR THE RESOURCES, OR THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMITTEE, AGAIN TO PREPARE ANOTHER PRESENTATION ON THE ECOLOGY ISSUES OF THE EVERGLADES; AND I DID SO. THAT WAS ANOTHER PRESENTATION. I WAS ASKED -- I HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK MY RECORDS. AGAIN, I PRODUCED THAT INFORMATION. I WAS ASKED, AT LEAST TWO, I THINK TWO OTHER OCCASIONS, TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1272 MAKE PRESENTATIONS TO OTHER GROUPS. I ALSO GAVE A PRESENTATION -- I WAS PRIMARILY ASKED TO GIVE AND BRING OUT INFORMATION ON THE EVERGLADES TO VARIOUS GROUPS. AND I DID ONE FOR THE AUDUBON. I DID ONE FOR -- I DID A TELEVISION SHOW FOR ONE OF THE CHANNELS IN MIAMI. I DID A SHOW -- WELL, NOT A SHOW, I DID SEVERAL PRESENTATIONS FOR -- BEFORE THE BOARD, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH GROUPS. Q. OKAY. A. THESE WERE FAIRLY LARGE UNDERTAKINGS, BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION YOU HAD TO PUT OUT. Q. AND YOUR TESTIMONY IS THAT ALL THE DOCUMENTATION THAT EXISTS ABOUT THESE, ALL THESE THINGS, HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY PRODUCED? A. IT HAS. Q. OKAY. ANY OTHER WORK THAT YOU DID PURSUANT TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. LET ME THINK. MR. GREEN: OFF THE RECORD. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. I WAS ASKED TO MAKE A PRESENTATION TO THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1273 BOARD OF U.S. SUGAR, THEIR EXECUTIVE BOARD, AND AGAIN, MAKE ANOTHER PRESENTATION TO -- COMPILE A PRESENTATION FOR THAT. Q. DID YOU PRODUCE THOSE DOCUMENTS? A. YES, I DID. I WAS ASKED TO MAKE -- WELL, I THINK, IN GENERAL, THAT COVERS MOST OF THE PRESENTATIONS. I MAY HAVE MISSED ONE OR TWO HERE AND THERE, BUT THAT WAS A GOOD PORTION OF MY WORK. AND THEN I WAS ALSO ASKED TO MEET WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE ENVIRONMENTAL COUNCIL, WHICH IS -- I THINK THAT'S THE TERM. I'M NOT SURE THEY EXIST ANY MORE -- ON A REASONABLY REGULAR BASIS, TO ANSWER QUESTIONS, KEEP THEM INFORMED ON ECOLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES AND SO FORTH. Q. WERE THERE DOCUMENTS ASSOCIATED WITH THESE PRESENTATIONS? A. NO. THESE WERE PRIMARILY SLIDE PRESENTATIONS, OR QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSIONS. Q. OKAY. ANY OTHER WORK THAT YOU DID PURSUANT TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF. Q. YOU HAVE OPINIONS THAT YOU'RE PREPARED TO TESTIFY TO AT THE FINAL HEARING IN THIS SWIM CHALLENGE. IS THAT CORRECT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1274 A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. DID ANYTHING THAT YOU DID, UNDER THIS CONTRACT, WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, OR DOES ANYTHING THAT YOU DID UNDER THIS CONTRACT RELATE TO THE OPINIONS YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE IN THIS CASE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. NO, MY OPINIONS ARE MOSTLY BASED ON MY RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES, AND I WAS NOT ASKED TO FORMALLY DO RESEARCH FOR THE LEAGUE. Q. WHAT ABOUT THE WORK THAT YOU DID UNDER THE FIVE-YEAR GRANT FOR THE EPD? WILL YOU BE RELYING ON ANY OF THAT MATERIAL IN GIVING THE OPINIONS IN THIS CASE? A. I WILL BE RELYING QUITE HEAVILY ON THAT MATERIAL. Q. WHAT ABOUT THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE GRANT? WITNESS: CAN WE GO OFF THE RECORD FOR A SECOND? MR. REID: YEAH. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MR. REID) WHAT ABOUT THE GRANT FROM THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1275 SUGAR CANE LEAGUE IN 1989, THE ONE-YEAR GRANT, WILL YOU BE RELYING ON ANY OF THAT MATERIAL IN THE OPINIONS THAT YOU GIVE IN THIS CASE? A. THAT WORK WAS VERY PRELIMINARY, AND THE WORK WITH THE EPD HAS FAR SUPERSEDED THAT WORK. IT'S -- I MEAN, IT REALLY IS -- I WON'T SAY IT'S IMMATERIAL, BY ANY MEANS, BUT IT -- IT HELPED US FOCUS WHERE TO DO CERTAIN RESEARCH EXPERIMENTS; BUT THE EPD WORK IS BY AND FAR THE GREATEST PIECE OF RESEARCH EVIDENCE WE HAVE. Q. OKAY. I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW MUCH YOU EARNED FOR THIS CONSULTING WORK THAT YOU DID THROUGH RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL, OR WHATEVER NAME, FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. HOW MUCH I EARNED WHEN? Q. THROUGHOUT THAT PERIOD THAT YOU WERE UNDER CONTRACT WITH THEM? A. I DON'T REALLY ROUGHLY REMEMBER, QUITE FRANKLY. MR. BURGESS: I'LL JUST NOTE FOR THE RECORD THAT THE TESTIMONY ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED IN HIS PREVIOUS DEPOSITION. MR. REID: WELL, THEN TELL ME HOW MUCH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1276 HE EARNED AND I'LL MOVE IT ALONG. MR. BURGESS: I DON'T KNOW; YOU CAN JUST LOOK IN THE PREVIOUS DEPOSITION. MR. REID: WELL, I DIDN'T SEE IT IN THE DEPOSITION. MR. GREEN: THERE WAS QUITE EXTENSIVE DISCUSSIONS ON THIS SUBJECT. MR. REID: ON THIS PARTICULAR CONTRACT, RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL WAS DISCUSSED? MR. BURGESS: I DON'T REMEMBER, AND JUST NOTE FOR THE RECORD. MR. GREEN: I DON'T REMEMBER THE WORDS RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL, BUT I REMEMBER THE QUESTION OF HOW MUCH HE RECEIVED FOR PERSONAL CONSULTATION SERVICES BEING ASKED AND ANSWERED. Q. (BY MR. REID) YOU CAN'T GIVE ME A BALLPARK? A. WELL, I THINK THE LAST TIME WE TALKED ABOUT IT. AND I DON'T REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE EXACT FIGURES. Q. NO, I UNDERSTAND, I'M JUST TRYING TO GET A BALLPARK, THAT'S ALL. A. AND--- Q. IF IT'S IN THERE, WE'LL FIND IT, BUT I'M JUST DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1277 -- I'D LIKE TO KNOW. A. YEAH, I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY THE FIGURE. I THOUGHT IT WAS MENTIONED SOMEWHERE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THAT FIGURE WAS. Q. DID YOU READ YOUR DEPOSITION SINCE IT WAS TAKEN? A. NO. Q. SO, YOU DON'T REMEMBER, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, EVEN A BALLPARK NUMBER FOR CONSULTING YOU DID FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE FROM '89 UNTIL A YEAR AND A HALF AGO? A. YOU KNOW, IT MIGHT -- I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT IT WOULD BE, NO. Q. I DIDN'T SAY EXACTLY. I SAID CAN YOU REMEMBER AN ESTIMATE OR A BALLPARK NUMBER. I UNDERSTAND YOU DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. BUT I'M ASKING YOU NOW FOR AN ESTIMATE. A. NO. AND THE REASON I DON'T EXACTLY HAVE A RECALL OF WHAT THAT IS, IS BECAUSE I DO CONSULTING FOR OTHER GROUPS, TOO, AND I -- IT'S ALL COMBINED, SO. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN IDEA OF HOW MUCH TIME YOU SPENT IN EACH OF THE YEARS INVOLVED WITH THIS ARRANGEMENT? A. IT VARIES. IT DEPENDS ON THE TIME OF THE YEAR AND SO FORTH. I MEAN, I TOOK A LEAVE OF ABSENCE FROM DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1278 THE UNIVERSITY FOR A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN WE FIRST STARTED THIS, SO I SPENT MORE TIME. I SPENT, WHEN I TOOK THE LEAVE OF ABSENCE, PROBABLY SEVENTY PERCENT OF MY TIME ON THIS THE FIRST YEAR, AND THEN I THINK THE LAST FEW YEARS IT'S BEEN DOWN TO AROUND, I DON'T KNOW, THIRTY PERCENT MAYBE. Q. WHY DID YOU TAKE A LEAVE OF ABSENCE? A. I TOOK A LEAVE OF ABSENCE BECAUSE I NEEDED TO HAVE AN EXTENSIVE AMOUNT OF TIME IN THE FIELD THE FIRST YEAR, WHEN I ESTABLISHED THE RESEARCH SITES, AND I PERSONALLY WANTED TO DO THIS MYSELF, AND I WANTED TO GAIN THE BEST UNDERSTANDING I COULD OF THE EVERGLADES; AND SO I SPENT EXTENSIVE NUMBERS OF DAYS AND WEEKS FLYING AND LANDING AND SAMPLING AND LOOKING AND GOING PLACES, SO THAT I COULD -- AND I COULD FEEL COMFORTABLE THAT, IN FACT, THE RESEARCH SITES, THE EXPERIMENTAL SITES AND SO FORTH MET THE CRITERIA THAT I THOUGHT WERE SUFFICIENT. Q. NOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE EPT -- EPD GRANT, IT SOUNDS LIKE. A. YES. Q. OKAY, I WAS TALKING ABOUT CURTIS RICHARDSON CONSULTING WORK THAT YOU WERE DOING. YOU DIDN'T TAKE THE LEAVE BECAUSE OF THE CONSULTING CONTRACT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1279 A. NO, I DID NOT. Q. AND YOU SAID SEVENTY PERCENT OF YOUR TIME WAS SPENT, I THOUGHT YOU SAID ON THE CONSULTING CONTRACT. YOU DIDN'T MEAN THAT? A. NO, I MEANT--- Q. YOU SKIPPED BACK TO THE OTHER ONE? A. RIGHT. Q. ALL RIGHT, LET'S CLEAR IT UP, BECAUSE I THINK THE RECORD IS CONFUSED. A. OKAY. Q. I ASKED YOU HOW MUCH TIME YOU SPENT ON A YEARLY BASIS CONSULTING FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. A. IT WOULD VARY FROM -- AS I SAID, PROBABLY THIRTY PERCENT WOULD BE ABOUT THE MAXIMUM FIGURE OF TIME THAT I WOULD OF USED IN -- LET'S SAY IN ONE PARTICULAR MONTH, BUT IT WOULD VARY. IN SOME MONTHS, I WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING FOR THREE OR FOUR MONTHS. Q. AND YOU NEVER TOOK A LEAVE OF ABSENCE BECAUSE OF ANY CONSULTING WORK, PRIVATE CONSULTING WORK--- A. NO--- Q. ---DID YOU? A. ---NO. Q. OKAY. DURING THE PERIOD FROM '89 TO THE END OF THE RELATIONSHIP, DID THE CONSULTING WORK EVER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1280 BECOME MORE IN A LITIGATION CONTEXT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. DID IT BECOME WORK IN A LITIGATION CONTEXT? I'M NOT SURE IF I UNDERSTAND THAT. Q. DID THE CONSULTING WORK BECOME WORK THAT YOU WERE DOING AS PART OF LITIGATION? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. HUM, I'M NOT SURE HOW TO ANSWER THAT, IN TERMS -- WAS I INVOLVED IN LITIGATION? Q. YEAH, OR WAS ANY OF THE WORK YOU WERE DOING GENERATED BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT WAS HAPPENING IN LITIGATION? A. WELL, I'M SURE SOME OF IT WAS. THERE WERE QUESTIONS BEING ASKED ABOUT -- I WASN'T DOING ANYTHING IN LEGAL--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---ASPECTS, BUT THERE WERE LEGAL QUESTIONS BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR IN TERMS OF SOME EVERGLADES ECOLOGY, AND I'M SURE THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT I LOOKED AT. Q. NOW, THE LEAVE OF ABSENCE THAT YOU TOOK WAS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FIVE-YEAR GRANT? A. CORRECT. Q. DURING THAT LEAVE OF ABSENCE, WERE YOU BEING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1281 PAID BY DUKE? A. YES, I BELIEVE SO. Q. WHY? A. WHY? Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. WELL, BECAUSE TO MAINTAIN HEALTH BENEFITS AND SO FORTH AND SO ON, I MEAN, I -- THAT'S A COMPONENT THEY WOULD PAY, OTHERWISE, I WOULD HAVE TO GO ON ALL -- ALL MY BENEFITS AND OTHER THINGS WOULD BE -- WELL, SOMETHING I NEGOTIATED, YOU CAN DO THAT. Q. WAS THAT FOR ONE YEAR? A. APPROXIMATELY ONE YEAR--- Q. AND IT WAS--- A. ---SIX MONTHS, MAYBE SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR. I THINK IT WAS ACTUALLY OFFICIALLY SIX MONTHS OF AWAY TIME FROM MOST OF MY RESPONSIBILITIES. Q. WHEN THAT WORK BEGAN, WERE YOU TOLD THAT ULTIMATELY YOU WOULD BE TESTIFYING IN SOME LEGAL PROCEEDING? A. EPD? Q. RIGHT. A. NO. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WAS TOLD, BY GEORGE WEDGWORTH, THAT IT WAS HIS OPINION THAT THIS GRANT SHOULD BE FUNDED THIS WAY AND SO THAT EVERYTHING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1282 WOULD BE PUBLIC RECORD, AND BE KEPT IN THE OPEN, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT THE UNIVERSITY INSISTED UPON, TOO, AND THAT WE WOULD DO THE SCIENCE, AND THE CHIPS WOULD FALL WHERE THEY MAY, AND THIS WOULD NOT BE -- I WOULD NOT BE -- AND, IN FACT, FOR THE FIRST FEW YEARS, WHILE THE VARIOUS PARTS OF THE LITIGATION COMPONENTS WERE GOING ON, I WAS REALLY OUT OF THE LOOP TOTALLY, IN TERMS OF THIS. MR. REID: BY THE WAY, WERE THERE ANY OTHER DOCUMENTS WITHHELD AS FAR AS PRIVILEGE, IN THIS LATEST PRODUCTION? MR. GREEN: YEAH, WE'VE GOT THREE, AND I'VE GOT A LIST THAT I CAN GIVE YOU, BUT I DIDN'T MAKE COPIES, IT JUST CAME. MR. REID: ALL RIGHT. MR. GREEN: JUST WHILE YOU'VE ASKED, LET'S CLEAR IT UP. I'LL JUST TELL YOU, THERE ARE THREE CORRESPONDENCES FROM MY OFFICE, WITH ATTACHMENTS, AND ONE WAS DATED JULY '93, A LETTER TO PROFESSOR RICHARDSON, FROM GARY PERKO, ONE OF THE ATTORNEYS IN OUR OFFICE, WITH ATTACHMENTS; ONE WAS OCTOBER 19, '93, WHICH WAS A COPY OF A FAX TO MR. WEDGWORTH FROM MYSELF WITH ATTACHMENTS; AND THE THIRD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1283 AND LAST WAS FEBRUARY 3, '94, A FAX MEMO TO PROFESSOR RICHARDSON FROM ME, WITH ATTACHMENTS, WHICH I CONSIDERED ALL TO BE PRIVILEGED. AND I CAN GIVE YOU A COPY, BUT SINCE IT'S IN THE RECORD, THAT'S ALL WE WITHHELD. MR. BURGESS: I HAVE A NUMBER OF DOCUMENTS THAT I'M PLACING ON A PRIVILEGE LIST THAT I HOPE TO COMPLETE IN THE NEXT TWENTY-FOUR HOURS. MR. REID: OKAY. Q. (BY MR. REID) ARE THERE OTHER -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. HAS YOUR CONSULTING BUSINESS, RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL, OR ANY OF ITS PREDECESSORS, BEEN RETAINED BY ANY OTHER INDIVIDUALS OR COMPANIES TO DO WORK RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. YES. Q. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT EACH OF THOSE. WHAT WAS THE FIRST ONE? A. I THINK IT WAS KNIGHT FARM -- KNIGHT'S FARM; I THINK IT'S INCORPORATED, I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT--- Q. WHEN WAS THAT? A. I DON'T REMEMBER, EXACTLY. Q. AND TO DO WHAT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1284 A. WELL, I MEAN, I CAN TELL YOU ROUGHLY, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. OKAY. A. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS LIKE, I THINK IT WAS BEFORE -- BEFORE '90, I THINK, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN IT WAS -- BASICALLY TO REVIEW SOILS DATA ON THE FARM. Q. WAS A LAWYER INVOLVED IN THAT? A. NO. Q. WHO HIRED YOU SPECIFICALLY? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE MAN'S NAME, QUITE FRANKLY. IT JUST DOESN'T COME TO ME. I CAN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME. Q. AND HOW LONG DID THIS RELATIONSHIP LAST? A. IT WAS A SHORT-TERM, ONE-TIME, ANALYZE THE SOIL SAMPLES, AND TURNED OVER THE INFORMATION. THAT WAS IT. Q. DO YOU RECALL HOW MUCH YOU EARNED ON THAT PARTICULAR JOB? A. NOT OFFHAND, I MEAN -- I MEAN, IT MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF A COUPLE THOUSAND DOLLARS; I'M NOT SURE, BUT IT WASN'T--- Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE PURPOSE OF YOUR WORK WAS? A. PRIMARILY TO CHARACTERIZE THE SOILS ON THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1285 KNIGHT FARM. Q. AND WHAT DOES THE KNIGHT FARM GROW, PRINCIPALLY? A. I BELIEVE AT THAT TIME THEY WERE GROWING SUGAR CANE ON PORTIONS OF IT. PORTIONS OF IT ARE FALLOW. Q. WERE YOU LOOKING AT THE PART THAT WAS BEING USED FOR SUGAR CANE? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS ALL -- ALL PARTS OF IT WERE. Q. YOU SAID FOWL? A. FALLOW. Q. OH, FALLOW. I THOUGHT YOU SAID FOWL, LIKE THEY WERE RAISING CHICKENS. A. FALLOW. Q. OKAY. A. SORRY. Q. WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT? A. IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO, SO, BASICALLY IT WAS ELEVATED PHOSPHORUS SOIL CONCENTRATIONS IN THE UPPER SURFACE IN SOME OF THE PIECES OF LAND. OTHERS HAD A LITTLE BIT LESS. IT WAS MOSTLY ORGANIC SOIL. IT HAD LOW ALUMINUM AND IRON CONCENTRATIONS. AND THAT'S ABOUT ALL I REMEMBER. IT WAS A TYPICAL FARM EAA SOIL, BUT FAIRLY DEEP PEAT, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT. Q. ANY DOCUMENTATION RELATING TO THIS WORK? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1286 A. YES. Q. AND WHERE IS THAT? A. I TURNED IT OVER THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE. Q. WHAT'S YOUR NEXT CONSULTING CONTRACT RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. I'VE BEEN RETAINED FROM TIME TO TIME BY THE CO-OP. Q. WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME? A. I DON'T -- IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETIME IN THE 90'S. I'M TRYING TO THINK OF -- I DON'T REMEMBER -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHEN IT WOULD BE, MAYBE '92, SOMETHING LIKE THAT--- Q. WHEN DID IT--- A. ---OR '91, IT COULD BE. Q. DID IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH GEORGE WEDGWORTH CHANGING POSITIONS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. AND, FOR THE RECORD, ALL THIS WAS COVERED A YEAR AGO. BUT YOU'RE WELCOME TO ASK WHAT YOU LIKE. A. NOT DIRECTLY, I MEAN, PER SE. I MEAN, I SUPPOSE INDIRECTLY. I CAN'T REALLY JUDGE THAT. I MEAN, GEORGE--- Q. WELL, WHERE -- I'M SORRY, I JUST MEANT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1287 TEMPORALLY, I DIDN'T MEAN POLITICALLY. DID YOU EVER WORK FOR THE CO-OP BEFORE GEORGE WEDGWORTH WAS CONNECTED WITH THE CO-OP? THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT. A. WELL, INDIRECTLY, I WOULD HAVE, SINCE THEY WERE PART OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. WHEN IT WAS SPLIT, AFTER -- WAS YOUR WORK FOR THE CO-OP AS A SEPARATE ENTITY, THEN, AFTER IT SPLIT OFF? A. YES. Q. AND WHAT DID THEY RETAIN YOU TO DO THIS FIRST TIME? A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE FIRST TIME WAS; I MEAN, I CAN TELL YOU, YOU KNOW, THE TYPES OF THINGS THEY'VE ASKED ME, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY THE FIRST. Q. WELL, HAVE YOU HAD AN ONGOING RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER FROM THIS POINT TO THE PRESENT? A. YES, SORT OF ONGOING, BUT SPORADIC. IT'S -- IT CAN BE FOUR MONTHS OF NOTHING, AND THEN ONE MONTH OF--- Q. SO, SOMEBODY CALLS YOU AND ASKS YOU TO DO A PARTICULAR TASK? A. CORRECT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1288 Q. WHEN YOU WERE RETAINED, WAS IT INITIALLY WITH REGARD TO ANY LITIGATION? A. I WAS ASKED WHETHER OR NOT I -- AT ONE POINT, I BELIEVE, WHETHER OR NOT I WOULD INVOLVED IN SOME LITIGATION, BUT THAT'S NOT BEEN THE PRIMARY--- Q. WHAT LITIGATION? A. I GUESS THE SWIM PLAN CHALLENGE. Q. SO, TELL ME GENERALLY WHAT YOU'VE DONE FOR THE CO-OP? A. I'VE GIVEN TWO CONGRESSIONAL TOURS OF THE EVERGLADES TO VARIOUS CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS AROUND COUNTRY AND GIVEN THEM AN OVERVIEW OF THE GLADES. I'VE GIVEN TOURS OF OUR RESEARCH PROJECTS TO VARIOUS MEMBERS. Q. MEMBERS OF WHAT? A. I'M SORRY -- WHAT? I'VE LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT. Q. YOU SAID TOURS TO VARIOUS MEMBERS. I SAID MEMBERS OF--- A. OH, PEOPLE FROM THE CO-OP, PEOPLE -- OCCASIONALLY, THERE ARE LOCAL PEOPLE OR REGIONAL PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SEE THIS, AND THE CO-OP WILL SAY, WE WILL -- WOULD YOU TAKE US OUT ALONG WITH--- Q. OKAY, I UNDERSTAND. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1289 A. ---SO ON. SO, WE WOULD ARRANGE THAT. A. I UNDERSTAND. A. REVIEW DOCUMENTS. Q. WHAT DOCUMENTS HAVE YOU REVIEWED? OBVIOUSLY, I DON'T EXPECT YOU TO TELL ME EVERY DOCUMENT, BUT I'M TRYING TO GET AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING, UNLESS YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW OF EVERY DOCUMENT. A. NO, IT'S -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START. I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER WHO SENT ME DOCUMENTS. I GET SO MANY DOCUMENTS. I GET THEM FROM EVERYONE. Q. INCLUDING THREE FROM MR. PERKO, THAT WE JUST HEARD ABOUT. A. I GET THEM -- I GET THEM FROM EVERYONE. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THE WATER MANAGEMENT BOARD, EVERYBODY SENDS ME DOCUMENTS. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. I WOULD HAVE OBTAINED, I GUESS, THE SWIM PLAN. I WOULD HAVE OBTAINED VARIOUS COPIES OF INDIVIDUALS' ARTICLES ON THE EVERGLADES ASPECTS SAYING, "DO YOU HAVE A COMMENT ON THIS?" AND I WOULD HAVE HAD INFORMATION ON, MORE RECENTLY, INFORMATION ON, I GUESS IT'S ADMINI -- I GUESS IT'S WHATEVER'S GOING ON IN TALLAHASSEE, THE HEARING MATERIAL ON DEP STANDARDS, WOULD HAVE HAD DOCUMENTS TO REVIEW, MANY OF WHICH I DIDN'T REVIEW. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1290 Q. TELL ME HOW MUCH YOU'VE BEEN PAID BY THE CO-OP DURING THIS RELATIONSHIP. A. I WOULDN'T KNOW AN EXACT FIGURE, AGAIN. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN ESTIMATE? A. FOR WHAT TIME PERIOD ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? Q. FROM THE BEGINNING UNTIL THE LAST TIME YOU DID ANY WORK FOR THEM. A. I DON'T KNOW -- FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS ($15,000.00), OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, MAYBE. Q. DO YOU CHARGE THEM THE SAME RATE YOU CHARGE THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. YES. Q. DO YOU CHARGE EVERYBODY THE SAME RATE FOR WHOM YOU DO THIS KIND OF WORK? A. YES. Q. AND CURRENTLY IT'S ONE-FIFTY AN HOUR? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. HAVE YOU RECEIVED, THROUGH YOUR PRIVATE CONSULTING, ANY OTHER CONTRACTS? A. RELATED TO? Q. THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, I'VE WORKED SINCE -- MORE RECENT TIMES FOR THE LEGAL COMPONENT. Q. ON BEHALF OF THE SAME PEOPLE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1291 A. YES. Q. OKAY. LET'S PUT THAT ASIDE, FOR A MINUTE, AND FINISH UP JUST YOUR GENERAL CONSULTING THAT YOU'VE DONE OVER THE YEARS. ANY OTHER CONSULTING ARRANGEMENTS THAT YOU'VE HAD THROUGH YOUR PRIVATE BUSINESS? A. RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES? Q. YES. A. NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF. Q. WHAT HAS THE TOTAL YEARLY INCOME BEEN FROM YOUR PRIVATE CONSULTING BUSINESS, SINCE '89? A. IT WOULD VARY. I DON'T -- I WOULDN'T HAVE ANY IDEA FROM BACK TO '89. Q. GIVE ME AN IDEA OF THE FIRST TIME YOU THINK YOU HAVE AN IDEA. A. WELL, AS I SAID, I REALLY DON'T -- I MEAN, I -- THE REASON I HAVE SOME DIFFICULTY ON THIS, IS BECAUSE I HAVE OTHER CONTRACTS WITH OTHER PEOPLE. I HAVE--- Q. WELL, THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. I WANT TO GET THE TOTAL NUMBER, THEN I WANT TO SEE HOW MUCH OF IT HAS BEEN RELATED TO--- A. WELL, I -- AND I DON'T REALLY KEEP, YOU KNOW -- I DON'T -- YOU KNOW, I COMBINE IT ALL IN AND DO IT ALL AND PUT IT ALL -- AND TURN IT OVER AND PUT IT IN--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1292 Q. SO, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU CAN'T TELL ME HOW MUCH MONEY YOU'VE EARNED IN YOUR CONSULTING BUSINESS IN ANY YEAR? A. NO, NOT REALLY. Q. BUT THERE WOULD BE A RECORD OF THIS SOMEWHERE? A. MY TAX RECORDS. Q. AND THAT WOULD SPLIT OUT YOUR CONSULTING INCOME SEPARATELY FROM OTHER INCOME THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE? A. BUT IT WOULD COMBINE ALL OF THE CONSULTING INCOME--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT IT HAS IN THERE -- I MEAN, IT'S LIKE FORTY SOME PAGES. I MEAN, IT'S GOT EXPENSES AND THIS AND THAT, AND SO FORTH AND SO ON, SO. Q. SURE. BUT SOMEWHERE IN THERE, IT WOULD SHOW A NUMBER THAT WOULD BE CALLED INCOME FROM CONSULTING WORK, THAT WOULD BE MADE UP OF THESE HOURLY RATES THAT YOU CHARGED PEOPLE? A. THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE A NUMBER IN THERE, ROUGHLY. Q. DO YOU HAVE A FEEL FOR HOW MUCH OF YOUR CONSULTING WORK, SINCE '89, HAS BEEN RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES, OR WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR CONSULTING WORK DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1293 AS BEEN RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES? A. SINCE '89? Q. YES. A. WELL, AT LEAST HALF, IN MORE RECENT YEARS. IN THE MIDDLE YEARS, I'D SAY THE EARLY NINETIES, IT MAY BE MORE LIKE SEVENTY-FIVE, EIGHTY PERCENT. AND, MORE RECENTLY, IT'S GOING DOWN, BECAUSE I'VE TAKEN ON SOME NEW INDIVIDUALS THAT I'M DOING SOME WORK WITH. Q. SO, SEVENTY-FIVE, EIGHTY-FIVE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PEAK? A. RIGHT. MR. GREEN: I THINK HE SAID SEVENTY-FIVE, EIGHTY. Q. (BY MR. REID) SEVENTY-FIVE TO EIGHTY? A. UH-HUH (YES). THIS IS OF THE CONSULTING COMPONENT, CORRECT? Q. SURE. A. YEAH. Q. AND, PRESENTLY, IT WOULD BE WHAT? A. IT WOULD PROBABLY BE SIXTY-FIVE PERCENT, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT, AGAIN, THIS IS GOING TO VARY. IT VARIES FROM MONTH TO MONTH. Q. DO YOU HAVE A LABORATORY, OTHER THAN THE ONE AT DUKE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1294 A. DO I HAVE A LABORATORY? Q. RIGHT. A. NO. Q. WHEN YOU NEED TO DO WORK AT DUKE IN THE LABORATORY, AS PART OF YOUR CONSULTING BUSINESS, DO YOU PAY DUKE FOR THE LABORATORY USE? A. YES, IF I DO THAT. Q. HAVE YOU DONE THAT? A. YES. BUT I GENERALLY -- WE GENERALLY HAVE NOT DONE ANALYSES. THAT'S THE POINT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---WHAT I DO WOULD BE COMPUTER ANALYSES. Q. AND I THINK YOU TOLD ME THIS, AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE, ASIDE FROM THE TWO GRANTS THAT YOU'VE MENTIONED, THE EPD, AND THE EARLIER SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, THERE ARE NO OTHER GRANTS RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES BY THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, OR ITS PREDECESSOR? A. NOT GRANTS, PER SE, NO. Q. ANY OTHER WORK THAT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER OR ANY OF ITS PREDECESSORS HAVE DONE RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. WE CONTRACTED WITH, AT THAT TIME, PEOPLES, EARL AND BLANK, OR THEY CONTRACTED WITH US. Q. AND WHO IS "US"? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1295 A. THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. Q. OKAY. SO, IT WAS A CENTER AT THAT POINT? A. YES, AND THAT WAS THIS LAST YEAR. Q. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT CONTRACT? A. THAT WAS TO ANALYZE SAMPLES IN THE LOXAHATCHEE AND THE EVERGLADES PARK. Q. AND THAT WAS THE ONLY TASK? A. THAT WAS THE ONLY TASK -- WELL, COLLECT THEM AND ANALYZE THEM. Q. AND IS THERE A WRITTEN CONTRACT FOR THAT WORK? A. I BELIEVE THERE'S SOME CORRESPONDENCE ON THAT, YES. Q. AND WAS IT PRODUCED? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS TURNED OVER. I'M NOT SURE. Q. WHEN WAS IT EXECUTED? A. WHEN WAS WHAT EXECUTED? Q. THE CONTRACT OR THE LETTERS THAT -- WHEN WAS THIS CONTRACT--- A. I BELIEVE IT WAS -- WE COLLECTED IN JUNE, SO IT WAS PROBABLY -- PROBABLY THE TIME -- THE LETTERS PROBABLY WERE PRIOR TO THAT, WHICH WOULD BE, I DON'T KNOW, APRIL OR MAY, AND JUNE, SORT OF THROUGH THAT TIME PERIOD. Q. SO, ALL OF THAT KIND OF WORK WAS NOT DONE AS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1296 PART OF THE GRANT FOR THE EPD? A. THAT WAS AN ADDITIONAL. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE CHARGE QUOTED FOR THAT WORK, AN HOURLY RATE--- A. NO--- Q. ---OR SOME OTHER--- A. ---IT WAS VERY COMPLICATED, AND THAT'S -- AND I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER WHAT THOSE NUMBERS WERE. THERE WERE SEVERAL ROUNDS ON THAT, IN TERMS OF NUMBERS, BECAUSE IT HAD TO DO WITH A NUMBER OF TASKS TO BE COMPLETED, AND HAS TO DO WITH TECHNICIAN TIME AND SAMPLING AND ANALYSIS, AND ALL THAT, SO IT'S--- Q. AND THIS IS ALL SET OUT IN A LETTER SOMEWHERE? A. CORRECT, SO -- BUT THERE WERE SEVERAL -- IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU DO "A," THEN IT WOULD BE SO MUCH. AND IF YOU DO ONLY "B," IT WILL BE SO MUCH. IF YOU DO "C," IT WILL BE SO MUCH, SO FORTH AND SO ON. AND SO THE RANGE, I CAN'T REMEMBER THE RANGE, EXACTLY, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS -- I DON'T KNOW -- FIFTY THOUSAND TO NINETY THOUSAND OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. MR. REID: RICK, IS THAT IN THE RECENT STUFF? MR. BURGESS: I THINK SO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1297 MR. REID: I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING IT. MR. BURGESS: IF NOT, YOU CERTAINLY ARE ENTITLED TO IT, AND WE'LL GET IT TO YOU. Q. (BY MR. REID) CAN YOU GET ME A COPY IF YOU GO BACK TO THE OFFICE THIS WEEK SOMETIME? A. I COULD SURELY GET IT TO YOU. Q. GREAT. AND HAVE YOU FINISHED THAT WORK? A. WE ARE -- NO, WE ARE STILL WORKING ON THAT. WE HAVE NOT COMPLETED THAT. THAT'S SOMETHING WE ARE WORKING ON AT THE MOMENT. Q. YOU DID -- TELL ME THE TASKS THAT YOU WERE -- THAT YOU CONTRACTED TO PERFORM. A. WE WERE ASKED TO SAMPLE -- TO COLLECT SOME SOIL SAMPLES FOR TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SOME OTHER ELEMENTS, I BELIEVE. WE SAID WE WOULD DO N, NITROGEN AND CARBON PROFILES IN THE LOXAHATCHEE. AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER WE PROPOSED, BUT I BELIEVE WE ENDED UP ANALYZING SEVEN CORES, IN THE LOXAHATCHEE. AND FROM THOSE, WE WERE TO ALSO DO SOME CESIUM SOIL DATING. AND WE DID THAT. I BELIEVE -- AND, AGAIN, I'M DOING IT FROM MEMORY, I BELIEVE WE ANALYZED -- AND THIS TAKES MONTHS OF WORK TO DO THE CESIUM ANALYSIS. I BELIEVE WE ANALYZED AND TURNED ALL THIS OVER; IT WAS ALL TURNED OVER. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1298 Q. IN THIS RECENT PRODUCTION? A. NO, NO. MR. BURGESS: NO. FOR THE RECORD, THIS -- THESE ARE THE ENTRY AND ACCESS DATA THAT IS SUBJECT TO--- MR. REID: OH, I'M SORRY, TURNED OVER PURSUANT TO THAT--- MR. BURGESS: ---HEARING OFFICER'S ORDER, AND HAS BEEN TURNED OVER--- MR. REID: RIGHT. MR. BURGESS: ---PURSUANT TO THAT ORDER. MR. REID: RIGHT. I'M SORRY, I THOUGHT THAT HE WAS -- HE MEANT THE PREVIOUS DEPOSITION, BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT PRODUCTION THERE, AND, OBVIOUSLY, THAT WAS BEFORE THIS WAS DONE. Q. (BY MR. REID) AND, SO, WHAT ELSE DID YOU DO? A. SO, THEN WE ANALYZED THAT, AND WE TURNED THAT INFORMATION OVER. AND FOR THE PARK, WE ANALYZED SOIL SAMPLES, AGAIN, I BELIEVE AT THIRTY SOME STATIONS, THIRTY-SEVEN, THIRTY-EIGHT. WE ANALYZED AGAIN PROFILES. WE DID SOME CESIUM DATING FOR THAT. WE DID TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, AND SOME -- I THINK WE'RE DOING NITROGEN ON SOME OF THOSE PROFILES, AND WE PROBABLY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1299 WILL DO CARBON, BECAUSE IT COMES OUT AUTOMATICALLY, ANYWAYS. AND WE DID SOME WATER SAMPLES, SOME SURFACE WATER SAMPLES, AND WE DID SOME PHOSPHATASE ANALYSIS, AND WE DID SOME VEGETATION NUTRIENT CONTENT. Q. ALL IN THE PARK? A. IN THE PARK. Q. SO, IN THE LOXAHATCHEE, ALL YOU DID WERE SOILS, AND FOR PHOSPHORUS, NITROGEN, CARBON, AND SOME CESIUM WORK? A. RIGHT. AND WE MAY -- RIGHT. Q. AND YOU MAY DO SOMETHING ELSE? A. WELL, WE MAY, BUT WE HAVEN'T DONE IT. WE JUST HAVE THE SAMPLES. WE MIGHT DO A LEAD 210 CORE, BUT WE HAVEN'T DONE IT. WE WERE NOT ASKED TO DO THAT. THIS IS MORE OF A SCIENTIFIC INTEREST. Q. ANY OTHER SAMPLING PURSUANT TO THIS CONTRACT WITH PEOPLES EARL? A. YOU MEAN IN THE PARK, OR ANYWHERE ELSE? Q. ANYWHERE ELSE. A. NO. MR. BURGESS: BEN, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, SOME OF THIS SOIL SAMPLE DATA, CURT GAVE TO ME YESTERDAY, AND THAT'S WHAT I BROUGHT THIS MORNING, AND TOLD YOU I HAD SOME MORE COPIES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1300 OR SOME MORE THINGS FOR YOU, THAT I HAD NOT SEEN, AND HE HAD NOT PRODUCED, UNTIL YESTERDAY EVENING. THE REMAINDER OF THOSE SOIL SAMPLE DATA WERE TURNED OVER PURSUANT TO THE ORDER. Q. (BY MR. REID) AND WHAT -- STRIKE THAT. I TAKE IT YOUR HAVEN'T BEEN FULLY PAID FOR THIS RECENT CONTRACT -- OR HAVE YOU? A. NO. Q. WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN PAID TO DATE? A. YOU MEAN THE WETLAND CENTER? Q. I'M SORRY, THIS IS A WETLAND CENTER CONTRACT. WHAT HAS THE WETLAND CENTER BEEN PAID TO DATE? A. NOTHING. Q. WHAT -- HOW MUCH ARE YOU OWED, AT THIS POINT? A. WELL, THAT'S WHAT I SAY, I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. OH, IT DEPENDS ON THIS COMPLICATED--- A. RIGHT. BUT IT'S SOMEWHERE IN THAT FIFTY TO NINETY THOUSAND DOLLAR ($50,000.00-$90,000.00) RANGE. MR. GREEN: AND WHEN YOU SAY "YOU," MR. REID, YOU MEAN THE WETLAND CENTER? MR. REID: WE'VE SAID THAT, SEVERAL TIMES. MR. GREEN: OKAY, THANK YOU. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1301 Q. (BY MR. REID) WILL YOU BE USING THIS DATA IN THE OPINIONS THAT YOU GIVE IN THIS CASE? A. YES, I WILL. Q. ANY OTHER CONTRACTS BY THE WETLAND CENTER, OR ITS PREDECESSORS, OR GRANTS OR ARRANGEMENTS RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. REID: WELL, EVERY TIME I CALL IT ONE THING, HE TELLS ME THAT GRANTS, CONTRACTS ARE DIFFERENT, AND I JUST WANT TO BE SURE TO COVER ANYTHING HE'S DONE. WITNESS: I APPRECIATE THAT, BUT GRANTS ARE DIFFERENT THAN CONTRACTS. MR. REID: I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE. I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE. Q. (BY MR. REID) ARE THERE ANY OTHER--- A. NO, NOT TO -- TO THE WETLAND CENTER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT--- Q. CORRECT, OR--- A. ---OR PREDECESSORS. Q. RIGHT. A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF. MR. GREEN: WELL, LET ME, JUST FOR THE RECORD, INDICATE THAT THIS WAS GONE OVER A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1302 YEAR AGO, AND IT MAY BE VERY MINOR, BUT, OF COURSE YOU'RE AWARE OF--- MR. REID: I'M NOT AWARE -- I'M ONLY AWARE OF WHAT HE'S TELLING ME TODAY, UNDER OATH, IN THIS DEPOSITION, SO--- MR. GREEN: THAT'S WHY I'M BRINGING IT UP. THERE ARE A COUPLE--- MR. REID: SO, YOU WANT TO REMIND HIM OF SOME THAT HE'S--- MR. GREEN: YEAH. AND -- WELL, AND THAT--- MR. REID: THAT'S FINE. MR. GREEN: ---SINCE THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF THAT DEPOSITION--- MR. REID: THAT'S FINE. MR. GREEN: ---HIS TESTIMONY AT THAT DEPOSITION CONCERNING A COUPLE OF VERY SMALL CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE WETLAND CENTER FROM MY CLIENT. I JUST WANT TO BE SURE THAT THE RECORD DOESN'T GET INACCURATE ON THAT. MR. REID: I UNDERSTAND. MR. GREEN: I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE REMEMBERS THEM OR NOT, THAT'S--- MR. REID: WELL, I UNDERSTAND. YOU'RE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1303 TALKING ABOUT THE GIFTS? MR. GREEN: YES. MR. REID: FOR DR. RECKHOW'S WORK? MR. GREEN: YES. AND I DIDN'T -- THEY MAY NOT TECHNICALLY BE GRANTS, BUT THEY MADE THE ARRANGEMENTS. MR. REID: WELL, I SHOULD HAVE SAID GIFTS--- MR. GREEN: OKAY. MR. REID: ---THAT WOULD BE INCLUDED. MR. GREEN: OKAY. MR. REID: YOUR RECOLLECTION HAS BEEN--- WITNESS: YES, I HAD FORGOTTEN BOTH THOSE. I'M SORRY. MR. REID: AND I THINK THOSE WERE DISCUSSED WITH RECKHOW. I'M NOT SURE THEY WERE DISCUSSED HERE, BUT--- MR. GREEN: AND THEY WERE DISCUSSED A YEAR AGO. WITNESS: THEY WERE DISCUSSED HERE, TOO. Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT, HOW DID THOSE COME ABOUT? A. HOW DID THOSE COME ABOUT? Q. YES. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1304 A. ESSENTIALLY -- I'M TRYING TO THINK OF EXACTLY HOW -- WE HAVE HAD SOME DISCUSSIONS WITH GEORGE IN TERMS OF WORK THAT COULD BE PURSUED AND SO FORTH, AND HE ASKED ME IF I HAD TIME TO DO IT, AND I SAID I DID NOT. AND I DIDN'T HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO DO THIS. THIS WASN'T MODELING, IN TERMS OF THE TYPES OF STATISTICAL MODELING WAS NOT MY FORTE, AND SO FORTH, AND SO HE RECOMMENDED -- OR I RECOMMENDED, AND HE SAID, WELL, HOW COULD WE DO THIS, AND I RECOMMENDED -- I SAID, WELL, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE AT DUKE WHO COULD DO THIS TYPE OF WORK, AND -- BUT, THEN, ESSENTIALLY, WE COULDN'T WORK AN ARRANGEMENT THAT REALLY WORKED OUT, YOU KNOW, SO--- Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, WE ESSENTIALLY -- WE ESSENTIALLY -- THE WAY WE FORMALLY WORK AT DUKE, IS WE ESSENTIALLY HAVE TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, A CONTRACT OR A GRANT. IT HAS TO BE AN OPEN TYPE THING, SO WE ESSENTIALLY DROPPED THAT PARTICULAR -- THAT PARTICULAR LINE. SO--- Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN, DROPPED THAT PARTICULAR LINE? A. WELL, I THINK I THEN TALKED TO DR. RECKHOW ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, HE WOULD PARTICULARLY WANT TO WORK ON ANY PARTICULAR ASPECTS OF THE EVERGLADES. Q. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN DROP THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1305 LINE. WHAT LINE? A. WHETHER GEORGE WOULD PARTICULARLY CONTACT DR. RECKHOW, OR DO SOMETHING AS -- AND I THINK KEN TOLD HIM HE WAS PRETTY BUSY. HE DIDN'T PARTICULARLY WANT TO DO THIS. Q. SO, AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT, WEDGWORTH APPROACHED RECKHOW, AND RECKHOW DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT, EITHER? A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE HE APPROACHED HIM DIRECTLY, BUT -- I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DETAILS OF THAT. Q. SO, WHAT HAPPENED? A. SO, THEN, ESSENTIALLY, WE HAD A STUDENT WHO WAS AVAILABLE TO DO THE WORK, AND I ESSENTIALLY TOLD GEORGE THE EASIEST WAY TO DO THIS, WITHOUT GOING THROUGH ALL KINDS OF RIGMAROLE, WOULD BE TO, BASICALLY, IF YOU WANT TO DO SOME MODELING WORK, WHICH WOULD HELP TO SUPPORT A STUDENT, WOULD BASICALLY BE TO CONSIDER A SORT OF A NO STRINGS ATTACHED TYPE PROPOSAL, OR A GIFT, WHICH IS WHAT PURSUED. Q. TO THE WETLAND CENTER? A. TO THE WETLAND CENTER. Q. IS THIS A NORMAL ARRANGEMENT? A. WE HAVE GIFTS ALL THE TIME FROM PEOPLE. WE'VE HAD A -- NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO GIVE, AND THE ARRANGEMENT BY WHICH IT'S MADE, IS IF YOU GIVE A GIFT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1306 TO THE UNIVERSITY, IT'S ESSENTIALLY THEY HAVE -- THERE ARE NO REPORTS, NO TASKS, NO REQUIREMENTS. AND WE CAN DO WITH IT WHATEVER WE WISH. Q. WHY COULDN'T YOU TAKE IT AS A GRANT, AND HAVE THE STUDENT WORK ON IT THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER, OR A WRITTEN CONTRACT? A. WELL, STUDENTS DON'T USUALLY HAVE WRITTEN CONTRACTS. THE UNIVERSITY HAS CONTRACTS AND SO FORTH. SO, THEY DON'T USUALLY DO THAT. Q. THAT'S MY -- BUT STUDENTS DO WORK PURSUANT TO -- I MEAN, STUDENTS DO WORK AS PART OF YOUR EPD GRANT, DON'T THEY? A. OH, YES. Q. OKAY, SO, WHAT WAS THE REASON THIS COULDN'T BE TREATED AS A CONTRACT, OR AS A GRANT? A. I THINK THE MAIN THING HERE WAS TO EXPEDITE THIS, AND TO DO THIS IN A FAIRLY -- THE STUDENT WAS ACTUALLY STARVING TO DEATH AT THE TIME, AND SO I THINK THE ACTUAL IDEA WAS, IT SOMETIMES TAKES WEEKS AND MONTHS TO GET THESE THINGS TO THE DESK, SO THE EASIEST WAY TO DO IT WAS BASICALLY -- JUST BASICALLY GIVE A GIFT TO THE CENTER. Q. AND IT WAS A FORTY THOUSAND DOLLAR ($40,000.00) GIFT, TOTAL? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1307 MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. I BELIEVE IT WAS BASICALLY TWO PARTS. Q. TWENTY EACH, OR--- A. RIGHT. I BELIEVE IT WAS TWO SEPARATE GIFTS. Q. AND THE STUDENT, IN THE END, ENDED UP GETTING SIXTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS ($16,000.00) OF THAT MONEY. IS THAT CORRECT? A. THE STUDENT GOT MOST OF THE MONEY, IF MY RECOLLECTION IS RIGHT. Q. GOT MOST OF THE MONEY? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. OKAY. HOW MUCH DID THE STUDENT GET, THEN? A. WELL, I THINK SIXTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS ($16,000.00) IS MOST OF THE MONEY. Q. I THOUGHT FORTY THOUSAND WAS THE TOTAL? A. OH, I SEE, I THOUGHT YOU WERE -- OKAY, OF THE TWO PIECES, I DON'T KNOW. DR. RECKHOW REALLY -- I BASICALLY -- WHEN THAT MONEY BASICALLY CAME TO THE CENTER, WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT, THAT WAS PUT INTO A SPECIAL SUBACCOUNT, AND THE STUDENT'S TUITION AND FEES WERE PAID OFF THAT. AND DR. RECKHOW HAD A SUBACCOUNT, AND HE BASIC -- I HAVE NO -- I BASICALLY DID NOTHING WITH THAT MONEY, MYSELF. Q. SO, THE WETLAND -- THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1308 DIDN'T GET ANY OF THAT MONEY? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) DID THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER GET ANY OF THAT MONEY? MR. GREEN: I THINK HE TESTIFIED THEY GOT ALL THAT MONEY. MR. REID: NO, NO, NO. HE JUST TOLD ME THE STUDENT GOT SOME OF THE MONEY, AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT--- A. WELL, THE STUDENT IS IN THE CENTER. Q. I UNDERSTAND. I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THE INSTITUTION, THE CORPORATE ENTITY, OR WHATEVER--- A. WELL, IT GOES INTO THE CORPORATE ENTITY--- Q. I UNDERSTAND. A. ---AND THEN IT--- Q. HOW MUCH OF IT STAYS IN THE CORPORATE ENTITY, AS OPPOSED TO--- A. IT WAS ALL DISPENSED OUT TO EITHER DR. RECKHOW, SUPPLIES OR EQUIPMENT OR THE STUDENT. THE WETLAND CENTER BASICALLY GOT -- IF YOU'RE ASKING ME IF THERE'S ANY RESIDUAL FUNDS, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING? Q. OVERHEAD OR ANYTHING SUCH AS THAT? A. NO. Q. SO, IT ALL WENT TO DR. RECKHOW, OR THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1309 STUDENT? A. TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q. AND THE REASON THAT YOU DIDN'T GO THROUGH THE NORMAL CHANNELS WAS BECAUSE THE STUDENT WAS IN DIRE STRAIGHTS AND NEEDED THE MONEY QUICKLY? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND THAT RESULTED IN THE PAPER THAT RECKHOW AND SONG QIAN WROTE? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THE -- THE MONEY DIDN'T RESULT DIRECTLY IN THAT. BUT THEY HAD BEEN, PRIOR TO THAT, WORKING ON VARIOUS COMPONENTS OF THAT. WHAT THAT -- THE PAPER WAS AN END PRODUCT OF A LOT OF THEIR WORK. THAT WASN'T -- THE MONEY WASN'T STRICTLY USED JUST TO GENERATE THAT PAPER IS WHAT I'M SAYING. Q. IS THERE ANY OTHER WORK PRODUCT, ASIDE FROM THAT PAPER, THAT THIS GRADUATE STUDENT CONTRIBUTED TO, RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW? MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME, THE REASON I'VE OBJECTED TO THE FORM IS BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT PAPER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. MR. REID: THE PAPER THAT WAS MARKED IN RECKHOW'S DEPOSITION THAT WAS PREPARED BY -- THE ONE I IDENTIFIED, THAT WAS WRITTEN BY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1310 RECKHOW AND SONG QIAN. MR. GREEN: WELL, I WASN'T THERE, SO I--- MR. REID: OH--- MR. GREEN: ---BUT WE'LL--- MR. REID: ---OKAY. MR. GREEN: DO YOU REMEMBER THE DATE, OR THE--- Q. (BY MR. REID) DO YOU REMEMBER THE -- CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXACT TITLE OF THE PAPER? I CAN FIND IT. A. NO. Q. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, THOUGH? A. I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YEAH. Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY INPUT INTO THAT FINAL PRODUCT, AT ALL? A. I REVIEWED THE PAPER. I GAVE SOME REFERENCES TO SONG, AND I PROVIDED THE DATABASE, OR PORTIONS OF THE DATABASE, AND I ACTED AS A REVIEWER, SORT OF A TECHNICAL REVIEWER OF COMPONENTS OF IT. I DID NOT DO THE MODELING OR THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. Q. WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE RESULT OF THE PAPER WAS? A. WELL, THERE'S A LOT IN THAT PAPER, A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT IN THAT PAPER, AND ONE OF THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1311 COMPONENTS OF IT IS, IS THAT IT COMES UP WITH A MODEL, A STATISTICAL MODEL, THAT CAN BE USED TO -- AND A NUMBER OF TECHNIQUES WERE TRIED TO COME UP WITH A MODEL THAT CAN BE USED TO PREDICT -- FROM LOAD IN, YOU CAN PREDICT PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS OUT, AND WITH SOME STATISTICAL CONFIDENCE, WHAT THOSE MIGHT BE. Q. ARE YOU GOING TO BE USING ANYTHING IN THAT PAPER, OR ANY OF THE WORK OF RECKHOW AND QIAN IN YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE? A. I'LL BEING RELYING INDIRECTLY ON THAT PAPER AS THE UNDERLYING STATISTICAL THEORY TO SUPPORT THE ALTERNATE MODEL THAT CAN BE USED TO LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF LOAD OF PHOSPHORUS ON PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS LEAVING WETLANDS. Q. WHAT MODEL IS THIS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THIS ALTERNATE MODEL? A. WELL, IT'S A LOAD MODEL? Q. WHO DID IT? A. WELL, IT'S BEEN USED AS A STANDARD MODEL BY ENGINEERS FOR A LONG TIME. BUT, BASICALLY, I BELIEVE SONG AND RECKHOW WENT THROUGH AND LOOKED AT SEVERAL POSSIBLE -- A WHOLE MULTITUDE OF MODELS, AND I CAN'T GO INTO THEM, BECAUSE THEY -- THEY DID THAT. BUT, ESSENTIALLY, THEY DEVELOPED THIS MODEL THAT WOULD BE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1312 ABLE TO UTILIZE DATA SETS AND STATISTICALLY PREDICT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH LOADS, WE BASICALLY PUT LOADS ON THE X-AXIS, AND IF YOU PLOT IT, A SIMPLE PLOT, AND THE Y-AXIS, YOU GET CONCENTRATIONS OUT. Q. WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IS, IS THERE SOME MODEL THAT SOMEONE HAS PREPARED FOR PURPOSES OF THIS LITIGATION THAT YOU MAKE REFERENCE TO? A. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY -- ARE YOU ASKING LIKE FOR A POSTER BOARD OR SOMETHING, OR SOME DISPLAY? Q. NO, NO, A MODEL--- A. WELL, THIS PAPER HAS A MODEL IN THERE THAT CAN BE UTILIZED TO PRE--- Q. SO, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHATEVER IS IN THE PAPER? A. RIGHT. Q. YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT TAKING THE WORK IN THE PAPER AND USING IT IN SOMEBODY ELSE'S MODEL THAT THEY'RE PREPARING? A. SOMEONE ELSE MAY DO THAT, AND IT'S -- BUT I'M SAYING--- Q. I'M ASKING IF YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? DO YOU KNOW OF ANY OTHER MODEL WHERE THIS WORK IS GOING TO BE USED? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1313 A. DO I KNOW OF ANY OTHER MODEL WHERE THIS FORM -- I'M CONFUSED BY THE QUESTION. Q. OKAY. WELL, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN THIS CASE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT WORKING ON VARIOUS MODELS? A. CORRECT. Q. THERE'S THE TETRA TECH MODEL, AND -- YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT? A. YES. Q. MY QUESTION IS, ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY MODELER THAT IS GOING TO BE USING THE RECKHOW-QIAN PAPER AS A COMPONENT OF THEIR MODEL? ARE YOU PERSONALLY AWARE OF ANY? A. I CAN'T PRECLUDE THE FACT THAT CARLOS MARIN MAY NOT, IN FACT, BE USING SOME COMPONENT OF THIS. AND I CANNOT SPEAK TO TETRA TECH. THEY KNOW ABOUT IT. THEY'VE SEEN VARIOUS COMPONENTS OF IT. AND I WILL BE USING THE PRINCIPLE BEHIND IT. Q. AND WHAT IS THE PRINCIPLE BEHIND IT THAT YOU WILL BE USING? A. THE PRINCIPLE, BASICALLY THAT A LOAD -- BASICALLY, A LOAD MODEL CAN BE USED TO PREDICT THE PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION OUTPUT FROM WETLANDS. Q. GIVE ME A PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF THAT; CAN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1314 YOU? A. WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE INFORMATION, AND LOOK AT THE GENERAL DATABASE, LET'S SAY ON THE X-AXIS YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE PUTTING IN, LET'S SAY SOME NUMBER, PICK A NUMBER, WHATEVER IT IS, AND YOU CAN LOOK AT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE X AND Y-AXES, THE Y-AXIS HAVING SOME EFFLUENT, YOU CAN PREDICT WHAT CONCENTRATION YOU CAN EXPECT OUT WITH THAT LOAD IN. Q. THIS WOULD BE IN THE WATER, THE CONCENTRATION IN THE WATER? A. THE WATER CONCENTRATION. Q. AND DOES THIS WORK IN THE LOXAHATCHEE, FOR INSTANCE? A. IT WOULD APPARENTLY WORK IN MOST WETLANDS. Q. DOES IT WORK IN -- AND BY THAT, I WOULD TAKE THAT TO MEAN THAT IT WOULD WORK IN THE LOXAHATCHEE AND IN WCA-2A? A. IT WOULD GIVE YOU SOME ESTIMATES, RIGHT. MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME, BEN. IS THERE A POINT YOU WANT TO BREAK FOR LUNCH? I WAS SUPPOSED TO GET A CONFERENCE CALL AT NOON. I'M A LITTLE LATE FOR IT. MR. REID: YEAH, I DON'T MIND. IS IT LUNCHTIME? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1315 MR. GREEN: YEAH. MR. REID: WELL, LET MUST JUST ASK HIM ANOTHER QUESTION OR TWO. A. WELL, LET ME JUST STATE THAT THIS IS A GENERIC MODEL, BUT IT GIVES YOU -- WHETHER IT GIVES YOU A SITE-BY-SITE ACCURATE NUMBERS IS ONE QUESTION, BUT IT WILL GIVE YOU A REASONABLE ESTIMATE OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN FOR -- WHEN YOU LOOK AT A COMPILATION OF A LARGE NUMBER OF WETLANDS, IT GIVES YOU AN ESTIMATE OF WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT A RANGE AND HOWEVER YOU WANT TO DO THE STATISTIC, OF OUTFLOW CONCENTRATIONS, AND IT CAN BE USED AS SORT OF A DESIGN -- IT HAS BEEN USED BY ENGINEERS AS A DESIGN CRITERIA. MR. REID: OKAY, WE CAN STOP NOW. (THEREUPON, A BREAK WAS TAKEN FROM 12:14 P.M. UNTIL 1:30 P.M.) EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES: Q. DR. RICHARDSON, JUST BEFORE LUNCH, MR. GREEN REFRESHED YOUR RECOLLECTION ABOUT A GIFT FROM THE COOPERATIVE TO THE CENTER, THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. ARE THERE ANY OTHER ARRANGEMENTS, CONTRACTS, GIFTS, GRANTS TO THE CENTER, OR ANY OF ITS PREDECESSOR ORGANIZATIONS, RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF. I -- I'M TAKING A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1316 MOMENT THERE BECAUSE I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT I HAVEN'T -- I HAVE NOT EXCLUDED ANYTHING. NO, WE DID DISCUSS WE HAD A CONTRACT WITH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, I BELIEVE. Q. RIGHT. WE TALKED ABOUT THAT, FOR THE ACCESS TESTING. A. RIGHT, RIGHT. Q. RIGHT. A. OKAY. Q. IS THAT THE ONLY CONTRACT, BY THE WAY, YOU'VE EVER HAD WITH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. A. FOR THE WETLANDS, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. NOW, JUST TO CLOSE A POINT, YOUR -- ANY OTHER WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE REGARDING THE EVERGLADES WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE THROUGH YOUR PRIVATE CONSULTING BUSINESS? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND HAVE YOU TOLD ME ALL OF YOUR EVERGLADES-RELATED ACTIVITY THROUGH YOUR PRIVATE CONSULTING BUSINESS? A. I BELIEVE I HAVE. I BELIEVE WE TALKED ABOUT--- Q. WELL, DID YOU EVER HAVE A CONTRACT WITH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1317 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, OR ANY LAW FIRM, THROUGH YOUR PRIVATE CONSULTING BUSINESS? A. A WRITTEN CONTRACT? Q. A CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT OF ANY SORT. A. WELL, A VERBAL AGREEMENT, I THINK. Q. AND WHEN WAS THAT? A. AS I MENTIONED EARLIER -- I WAS TRYING -- I WAS ACTUALLY TRYING TO THINK OVER THE LUNCH PERIOD OF THE DATES. IT'S SO FUZZY ON THIS AS THE THINGS BEEN PROTRACTED OUT SO LONG. I BELIEVE THAT THE SWIM -- I BELIEVE THE SWIM PLAN WAS FILED, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT -- IT WAS IN '92 -- SOMETIME IN '92, IT WAS FINALLY PASSED. AND THEN IT WAS -- AFTER THAT, I GUESS THERE WAS A -- AT SOME POINT, THERE WAS A CHALLENGE. SO, IT WOULD BE AFTER THAT PERIOD OF TIME, SOMETIME IN MAYBE MIDDLE OR LATE '92 THAT I WAS CONTACTED BY PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK. AND THAT'S -- THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHEN THE LEAGUE ESSENTIALLY -- I MAY HAVE MISSPOKE EARLIER BEFORE, I MAY NOT HAVE THE DATES QUITE RIGHT -- THAT MAY HAVE BEEN ESSENTIALLY WHEN THE LEAGUE STOPPED USING MY SERVICES SINCE THIS WAS ESSENTIALLY ALL WORK THAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE. BUT PRIOR TO THAT, MOST OF THE WORK I HAD DONE WAS NOT LITIGATION. MOST ALL OF IT WAS THIS -- THIS OTHER STUFF THAT I HAD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1318 MENTIONED. BUT, THEN, IT SWITCHED OVER AND THEY SAID, "WE -- THE LEAGUE IS NOT DIRECTLY HANDLING THAT." Q. OKAY. SO, EARLIER, YOU TOLD ME -- EARLIER YOU TOLD ME YOU HAD CONTRACTED WITH THE LEAGUE UNTIL, I THINK, '89 -- I'M SORRY, UNTIL A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. WOULD THAT BE WHEN THAT HAPPENED? A. NO, THAT'S WHAT I SAY -- I THINK IT -- I WENT BACK, AND I THINK I WAS OFF BY A BIT BECAUSE WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CLARIFY, AND MAKE IT AS -- AS I SAY, THESE DATES GET BLURRED, BUT I -- AS I MENTIONED TO YOU BEFORE, WHEN WE ESTABLISHED THE EPD GRANT -- THAT'S THE ONLY WAY I CAN KIND OF THINK OF IT -- IN THE FIRST FEW YEARS OF THAT GRANT, THAT WAS ALL -- AND IT'S AN INDEPENDENT RESEARCH, AND IT'S BEEN GOING ON AS RESEARCH AND WAS NOT RELATED TO THE LITIGATION. BUT AT SOME POINT AFTER THE SWIM PLAN, I THINK, WAS CHALLENGED, WHICH WAS, I THINK, IN '92 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT'S WHEN MY ASSOCIATION WITH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK TOOK PLACE. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO CLARIFY. Q. OKAY. SO, THAT, IN EFFECT, REPLACED YOUR AGREEMENT WITH THE LEAGUE? A. WELL, FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. Q. OKAY. AND WAS THAT IN THE FORM OF A WRITTEN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1319 DOCUMENT WITH PEEPLES, EARL? A. NO. Q. SO, YOU WERE JUST ASKED TO HELP OUT WITH THE SWIM PLAN WORK? A. RIGHT. AND THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION OF IT IN TERMS OF THEY WOULD SEND ME DOCUMENTS FROM TIME TO TIME AND ASK ME TO REVIEW THINGS, OR OCCASIONALLY ATTEND MEETINGS AND KIND OF BRING THEM UP. Q. ARE YOU BILLING PEEPLES, EARL AT THE SAME RATES YOU WERE BILLING THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE AND SO FORTH? A. YES, I AM, EXCEPT -- WELL, THE LITIGATION PART'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. Q. AND HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT? A. WELL, IN ACTUAL DIRECT -- WHEN I AM BASICALLY IN DEPOSITION MODES, OR IF I GO TO TRIAL, PER SE, THEN I CHARGE THEM A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT RATE. Q. WHAT DO YOU CHARGE FOR TRIAL? A. TWO-FIFTY AN HOUR. Q. DEPOSITIONS? A. TWO-FIFTY AN HOUR. Q. RESEARCH OR WORK PREPARING FOR DEPOSITIONS OR TRIALS? A. IT'S ALL THE ONE-FIFTY RATE. Q. ONE FIFTY? SO, YOUR ACTUAL TIME GIVING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1320 TESTIMONY IS TWO-FIFTY AN HOUR? A. RIGHT. Q. WHETHER IT'S IN TRIAL OR NOT? A. CORRECT. I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT SO WE -- AND WE WENT THROUGH THAT, ACTUALLY, I THINK, AT THE LAST DEPOSITION, BUT I WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT. Q. OKAY. AND SINCE YOU BEGAN WORKING WITH PEEPLES, EARL UNDER THIS AGREEMENT IN 1992, WHAT IS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF TIME THAT YOU'VE SPENT TO DATE, OR THE TOTAL BILLINGS, IF YOU KNOW THAT NUMBER? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE WHOLE -- THE WHOLE THING. I CAN -- I CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE -- THE LAST BILLING, FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE THAT'S FAIRLY FRESH IN MY MEMORY, SO I CAN DO THAT; AND OVER THE LAST--- Q. WELL, WHAT WAS YOUR LAST BILL? A. MY LAST BILL TO THEM WAS A FEW WEEKS AGO, WHICH COVERED THE FIRST PART OF THIS YEAR, AND THAT WAS APPROXIMATELY -- AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBER, BUT IT WAS APPROXIMATELY -- I THINK WAS ABOUT FIVE TO SIX THOUSAND DOLLARS ($5,000.00 TO $6,000.00) IN EXPENSES, AND FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS ($15,000.00) OF TIME. Q. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN FOR TIME SPENT SINCE JANUARY 1ST? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1321 A. SOMETIME IN JANUARY; I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATES. Q. AND YOU DON'T RECALL ANY BILLINGS BEFORE THAT? A. YES. THE PREVIOUS BILLING BEFORE THAT, I HAD NOT BILLED -- WELL, LET'S SEE. IT WAS SOMETIME -- OH, I'D SAY SOMETIME IN JULY OF '93, LATE JUNE OR JULY OF '93 UNTIL JANUARY, I HAD A BILLING TO THEM. Q. AND HOW MUCH WAS THAT? WE'LL CALL IT THE LAST HALF OF '93, IN OTHER WORDS, ROUGHLY. A. ROUGHLY. AGAIN, THESE ARE ONLY APPROXIMATE. SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF -- I DON'T KNOW -- SIX, EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS OF EXPENSES AND ABOUT THIRTY-FIVE, FORTY THOUSAND -- WELL, NO -- THIRTY-THREE THOUSAND, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD; I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY -- IT COULD BE OFF A COUPLE THOUSAND. IT DEPENDS ON THE EXPENSES. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MR. REID) DOES ANYBODY ELSE WORK FOR RICHARDSON ECOLOGICAL? A. I HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME, SORT OF ON A -- DEPENDING UPON THE PROJECT, I HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1322 SUBCONTRACTED JUST A STRAIGHT ONE-TIME SHOT TYPE OF THING. Q. OKAY. NO REGULAR EMPLOYEES, THOUGH? A. NO. MY -- MY WIFE OCCASIONALLY HELPS ME WITH -- SOMETIMES -- SHE BASICALLY FOR -- SHE DID THE BOOKS FOR A WHILE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THINGS LIKE THAT. Q. DO YOU RECALL ANY OF YOUR PREVIOUS BILLINGS TO THE PEEPLES, EARL ON THIS MATTER, PRIOR TO THE TWO YOU TOLD ME ABOUT? MR. BURGESS: I'LL JUST STATE FOR THE RECORD I THINK THIS WAS COVERED THROUGH THE DATE OF HIS LAST DEPOSITION, WHICH WAS JANUARY OF 1993; BUT SINCE THAT TIME, THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHERS. MR. REID: WELL, WE'D HAVE THE FIRST HALF OF '93, THEN. Q. (BY MR. REID) DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOUR BILLING WAS FOR THE FIRST HALF OF '93? A. NO, I DON'T. AND -- AND THE REASON I DON'T IS THERE WAS SOME CONFUSION OVER SOME THINGS IN TERMS OF -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHETHER IT WAS EXPENSES. AND WE WERE ALSO -- THE BILLING WAS SPLIT BETWEEN PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK AND HOPPING, BOYD & GREEN, BUT ONLY ON CERTAIN THINGS; AND IT WAS MONTHS AND MONTHS OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1323 BASICALLY GOING THROUGH THAT. Q. THE NUMBERS THAT YOU GAVE ME, WERE THESE EXCLUSIVELY BILLED TO PEEPLES, EARL ON BEHALF OF THEIR CLIENT, OR WAS SOME OF THIS PAID BY HOPPING, BOYD ON BEHALF OF THEIR CLIENT? A. WHICH ONE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? Q. THE TWO BILLS THAT YOU'VE TOLD ME ABOUT SO FAR. A. NONE OF THOSE BILLS HAVE BEEN PAID. Q. OKAY. BILLED. MY QUESTION IS, WERE THEY SENT -- THEY WERE SENT TO PEEPLES, EARL; WAS THAT SOLELY FOR WORK DONE ON BEHALF OF PEEPLES, EARL? A. CORRECT. Q. NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT WITH THE CO-OP? A. I HAVE NO WRITTEN CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY ORAL AGREEMENT WITH THE CO-OP? A. YEAH, RIGHT. WE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE AND -- TIME TO TIME AND--- Q. NO, I MEAN, RIGHT NOW, AS WE SIT HERE, FOR LITIGATION PURPOSES. A. DO I HAVE A -- I GUESS IT WOULD BE THE SAME -- ALMOST THE SAME ARRANGEMENT THAT I HAD WITH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, IN THAT I WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO PROVIDE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1324 INFORMATION. Q. SO, YOU'VE AGREED TO CONSULT WITH HOPPING, BOYD ON BEHALF OF THE COOPERATIVE WITH REGARD TO THE SWIM CHALLENGE LITIGATION? A. I'VE AGREED TO -- YEAH, I'VE AGREED TO -- GIVE ME THAT AGAIN -- I'M SORRY. I'VE AGREED TO--- Q. YOU HAVE AGREED TO CONSULT WITH HOPPING, BOYD ON BEHALF OF THEIR CLIENT, THE COOPERATIVE, IN THE LITIGATION REGARDING THE SWIM CHALLENGE? A. RIGHT. AND, ESSENTIALLY, A LOT OF THAT IS -- IS THE SAME THING, IT'S SPLIT; WHICH IS SPLIT. Q. HAVE YOU SENT HOPPING, BOYD ANY BILLS FOR YOUR WORK? A. YES. Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU SEND THEM A BILL LAST? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. IT'S A FEW WEEKS AGO, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. SAME TIME YOU SENT THE ONE TO PEEPLES, EARL ROUGHLY? A. YEAH. Q. OKAY. A. SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. AND DID THAT COVER THE TIME SINCE BASICALLY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1325 1994 BEGAN? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE AMOUNT OF THAT BILL? A. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS ACTUALLY SEVERAL BILLS BECAUSE IT WAS FOR DIFFERENT PURPOSES. I'D -- I HAD GIVEN A TOUR TO THE CONGRESSIONAL GROUP, I HAD SOME EXPENSES RELATED TO THAT; I HAD SOME DOCUMENTATION. SO, IN OTHER WORDS, I HAD TO SEND IT AS TWO -- TWO DIFFERENT COMPONENTS. Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S DIVIDE IT UP. LET'S TALK ONLY ABOUT THE LITIGATION, WORK YOU'VE DONE--- A. OKAY. Q. ---IN THE LITIGATION, TO START WITH. A. RIGHT. Q. I ASSUME THE OTHER WORK THAT YOU DESCRIBED, THE TOUR, WOULD RELATE TO THE GENERAL WORK YOU'VE BEEN DOING FOR THE CO-OP FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS? A. RIGHT. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND YOU DON'T -- YOU CAN'T TELL ME THE TOTAL AMOUNT, I THINK, THAT YOU BILLED THE CO-OP OVER THE YEARS FOR THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE FOR THEM? A. I DON'T REALLY RECALL, NO. Q. OKAY. SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT LITIGATION. THE BILL THAT YOU JUST SENT THEM SEVERAL WEEKS AGO FOR WORK DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1326 DURING THE CALENDAR YEAR '94, WHAT WAS THAT BILL, THE AMOUNT? A. JUST FOR THE LITIGATION? Q. THAT'S RIGHT. A. I THINK THERE WAS -- I'M JUST DOING THIS FROM -- TRYING TO DO THIS FROM MEMORY. I THINK IT WAS -- I CAN'T REMEMBER. THE PROBLEM IS BECAUSE I HAVE ALL THESE EXPENSES AND I DON'T REMEMBER -- IT'S LIKE TWO OR THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS OF EXPENSES AND NINE OR TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS OF FEES IN THERE, IS WHAT I RECALL. BUT I COULD BE OFF A LITTLE BIT. I DON'T REMEMBER. MR. GREEN: COUNSEL, LET ME JUST ASK YOU TO CLARIFY. DID YOU ASK IF THOSE BILLS HAVE BEEN SENT TO HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS OR TO THE COOPERATIVE? MR. REID: I ASSUME THAT HE -- HE TOLD ME HE HAD THE SAME RELATIONSHIP THAT HE HAD WITH PEEPLES, EARL, SO I ASSUME THEY WERE SENT TO YOU. IF THAT'S INCORRECT, YOU CAN--- MR. GREEN: WELL, I JUST WANT TO BE SURE THAT YOU ASK HIM AGAIN TO BE SURE IT'S CLEAR. MR. REID: OKAY. Q. (BY MR. REID) THE BILLING THAT YOU JUST SENT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1327 SEVERAL WEEKS FOR APPROXIMATELY TEN THOUSAND IN FEES AND TWO THOUSAND IN EXPENSES, WAS THAT SENT TO HOPPING, BOYD OR WAS THAT SENT TO THE COOPERATIVE DIRECTLY? A. ALL MY BILLS WITH THEM ARE SENT DIRECTLY TO THE COOPERATIVE. Q. OKAY. SO, IT'S DIFFERENT FROM YOUR PEEPLES, EARL ARRANGEMENT FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. BEFORE THAT, DID YOU SEND THEM A BILL FOR THE TIME FOR THE LATTER HALF OF 1993, AS WELL? MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. "THEM" BEING? MR. REID: THE COOPERATIVE. A. I MAY HAVE, BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT -- BECAUSE I HAD NOT BEEN DOING -- I THINK THAT WAS THE PERIOD, IF I RECALL, WE WERE IN MEDIATION OR SOMETHING AND I, FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, I DID NOT -- NO WORK FOR THEM, OTHER THAN I MAY HAVE GIVEN A TOUR OR A TALK TO SOMEBODY. I CAN'T REMEMBER. BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S VERY MUCH THERE. Q. HAVE YOU -- CAN YOU RECALL ANY LITIGATION -- STRIKE THAT. DID YOUR ORAL AGREEMENT WITH HOPPING, BOYD OR THE COOPERATIVE BEGIN AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR ORAL AGREEMENT BEGAN WITH PEEPLES, EARL FOR THE SWIM WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1328 A. I WOULD SAY APPROXIMATELY. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME -- CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MUCH, IN TOTAL, YOU BILLED THE COOPERATIVE FOR THAT WORK TO DATE? A. NO. ONCE I GET BEYOND THIS LAST YEAR, I REALLY CAN'T -- I MEAN, I JUST--- Q. NOW, ARE YOU APPEARING HERE TODAY AS PART OF YOUR ORAL AGREEMENT WITH SUGAR CANE LEAGUE OR THE COOPERATIVE? A. IT WOULD BE HERE PARTIALLY AS THE -- I GUESS IT'S NOW EARL, BLANK, KAVANAUGH & STOTTS, AND PARTIALLY FOR THE COOPERATIVE. Q. AND ARE YOU BEING -- ARE THEY SPLITTING THE TWO-FIFTY? A. THEY'RE SPLITTING IT SOME -- I'VE NOT FIGURED EXACTLY HOW, BUT THEY'RE SPLITTING IT. Q. BUT YOU'RE NOT GETTING FIVE HUNDRED AN HOUR? A. NO, NO. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MR. REID) HAVE YOU HAD AS A PRIVATE CONSULTANT ANY OTHER WORK, ANY OTHER CONTRACTS, ORAL OR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1329 WRITTEN, FOR EVERGLADES-RELATED WORK, THAT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ABOUT? A. NO. I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH COVERS IT. Q. DID YOU PRODUCE ALL YOUR BILLING MATERIALS, INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR BILLINGS, AS PART OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU PRODUCED? A. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MY--- Q. YOUR CONSULTING WORK--- A. NO. Q. ---IN THE LITIGA -- YOU DID NOT? A. NO. Q. OKAY. SO, THOSE WOULD BE AVAILABLE SOMEWHERE IF I WANTED TO FIND OUT HOW MUCH ALL THESE BILLS ARE AND THE CHARGES; THOSE ARE IN WRITING SOMEWHERE, THEY EXIST? A. I THINK I TOLD YOU EARLIER PRETTY MUCH ONCE I GET THROUGH SOME OF THAT, I BASICALLY -- I DON'T KEEP MUCH OF THAT. Q. SO, YOU'RE TELLING ME YOU HAVE DESTROYED THE COPIES OF THE BILLS THAT YOU'VE SENT FOR YOUR WORK IN THE SWIM CHALLENGE LITIGATION? A. WELL, NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT I HAVE -- YOU SAID -- IT DEPENDS ON THE TIME FRAME YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Q. WELL, YOU'VE ONLY BEEN DOING IT FOR TWO YEARS, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1330 SO YOU'VE DESTROYED SOME DURING THAT TWO-YEAR PERIOD? A. WELL, I HAVE -- I HAVE MY BANK STATEMENTS AND MY OWN FILES AND STUFF LIKE THAT. Q. WELL, DID YOU PRODUCE THOSE? A. NO. Q. OKAY. BUT THAT'S WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO PRODUCE FOR ME TO FIND OUT THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU SPECIFICALLY HAVE CHARGED FOR YOUR WORK IN THIS LITIGATION? A. WELL, I MIGHT HAVE SOME COMPUTER FILES. I DON'T KNOW; I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU DO HAVE BANK FILES THAT SHOW THAT? A. I HAVE BANK RECORDS THAT I KEEP TRACK OF, AND I HAVE TAX RECORDS THAT I KEEP TRACK OF. Q. AND THOSE RECORDS WOULD SHOW ME HOW MUCH YOU'VE CHARGED YOUR CLIENTS FOR WORK IN THE SWIM LITIGATION? A. THEY WOULD HAVE -- WELL, THEY WOULD HAVE DEPOSITS AND THEY WOULD HAVE THINGS IN IT. Q. WOULD THEY BE IDENTIFIED IN SUCH A WAY THAT I COULD TELL HOW MUCH YOU'VE CHARGED THESE CLIENTS FOR WORK IN THE SWIM LITIGATION? A. I THINK FOR THE MOST PART, BUT THEY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1331 WOULDN'T -- THEY WOULD JUST BE A LUMP SUM. BUT THEY WOULDN'T TELL YOU EXPENSES OR COSTS OR WHATEVER. Q. AND YOU SAID YOU MIGHT HAVE SOME COMPUTER RECORDS; WHAT WOULD THOSE BE? A. WELL, THE COMPUTER RECORDS WOULD PROBABLY BE -- I HAVE LIKE A QUICKEN PROGRAM AND SOME STUFF LIKE THAT SO I CAN KEEP TRACK OF DEPOSITS. Q. NOW, THIS MORNING OR BEFORE THIS DEPOSITION, DID YOU HAVE AN OCCASION TO MEET WITH COUNSEL IN THIS CASE? A. YES. Q. WHEN WAS THAT MEETING? A. WE MET YESTERDAY FOR MOST OF THE DAY. Q. WHERE DID YOU MEET? A. OVER AT THE WASHINGTON DUKE IN A CONFERENCE ROOM. Q. WASHINGTON DUKE INN? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. WHO WAS THERE? A. MARK KOBELINSKI FOR PART OF THE DAY; RICK BURGESS FOR PART OF THE DAY; BILL GREEN FOR PART OF THE DAY; AND MYSELF. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THIS MEETING? A. MOST OF IT WAS JUST REVIEWING DOCUMENTS AND, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1332 BASICALLY, BRINGING ME UP TO SPEED ON HAD I SEEN THESE DOCUMENTS, DID I KNOW WHAT THESE -- DID I KNOW WHAT THIS INFORMATION, IF I HAD SEEN THIS. Q. THAT WAS IN PREPARATION FOR YOUR DEPOSITION TODAY? A. YES, TO A DEGREE, IT WAS. Q. WELL, WAS IT FOR ANY OTHER REASON? A. NO, PRETTY MUCH -- I MEAN, AS I SAY, IT WAS -- IT WAS DOCUMENT REVIEW AND PRETTY MUCH JUST PREPARATION FOR THE DEPOSITION. Q. WHAT VOLUME OF DOCUMENTS DID YOU REVIEW? A. WELL, IN THAT TIME -- I MEAN, WHEN I SAY "REVIEW," I MEAN, I JUST -- I WAS PRIMARILY JUST LOOKING THROUGH STACKS OF MATERIAL--- Q. WHAT VOLUME DID YOU LOOK THROUGH? A. WELL, I -- ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT--- Q. WE'LL START WITH -- WE'LL START WITH HOW HIGH THE PILE WAS, AND THEN WE'LL TRY TO GET MORE SPECIFIC. A. WELL, THEY -- ALL THREE HAD DOCUMENTS, SO I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW HIGH THE STACK WAS, BUT I'D SAY EVERYBODY HAD A STACK OF MAYBE SIX TO EIGHT INCHES. Q. AND WHAT WERE THESE DOCUMENTS? A. WELL, WE CAN GO THROUGH THEM IN ORDER. THE FIRST -- FIRST GROUP I WENT THROUGH IN THE MORNING WAS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1333 MOSTLY PUBLICATIONS, DISTRICT DOCUMENTS, SOME PAPERS BY VARIOUS AUTHORS ON EVERGLADES ISSUES AND SO FORTH. Q. CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT ANY OF THE DISTRICT DOCUMENTS YOU LOOKED AT WERE? A. AN ARTICLE BY TOTH; AN ARTICLE BY DAVIS; AN ARTICLE BY URBAN AND DAVIS, AN ARTICLE BY -- OH, LET ME SEE -- I THINK THERE WERE SEVERAL BY TOTH. I THINK THERE WERE SOME -- OH, AN ARTICLE BY JENSEN, AN ARTICLE BY JENSEN. I THINK THAT'S THE NAME. I COULD BE WRONG, BUT I THINK IT WAS JENSEN, A DISTRICT REPORT OF SOME KIND. THE BOOK DAVIS AND -- THE EVERGLADES BOOK. Q. ANY PARTICULAR PART? A. YEAH, WE LOOKED AT SOME CHAPTERS, I THINK, BY DAVIS, AND WE LOOKED AT SOME HYDROLOGY PLATES THAT ARE IN THERE, MORE THE HISTORICAL -- JUST LOOKED AT THE -- LOOKED AT THE HISTORICAL ASPECTS OF THE GLADES AND SO FORTH. Q. ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU REMEMBER LOOKING AT? A. THAT WAS THE FIRST SET. Q. ANY OTHER PUBLICATIONS? DID YOU GIVE ME ALL THE PUBLICATIONS YOU COULD REMEMBER LOOKING AT? A. THAT'S ALL I CAN REMEMBER OUT OF THAT FIRST -- FIRST GROUP THAT WE LOOKED AT. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF LOOKING AT THESE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1334 PARTICULAR PUBLICATIONS? A. JUST ASKING ME TO, AT SOME TIME IN THE NEAR FUTURE, TO REVIEW THESE OR TO TAKE A LOOK AT THESE, OR WAS I AWARE OF WHAT WAS IN THESE DOCUMENTS, HAD I SEEN THEM ALL. SOME I HAD SEEN, SOME I HAD NOT. Q. THE ONES THAT YOU HAD SEEN, WHAT PARTICULAR PARTS WERE YOU FOCUSING ON? A. I HAVEN'T REALLY FOCUSED ON ANY OF THOSE. I MEAN, I HAVE PROBABLY LOOKED AT A HUNDRED ARTICLES, SO, I MEAN, I CAN'T SAY AS I'M FOCUSING ON ANYTHING, BUT I HAD LOOKED AT SOME OF THOSE IN MORE DETAIL THAN OTHERS. I HAD LOOKED AT TOTH'S ARTICLE IN THE PAST, FOR EXAMPLE, LOOKING AT THE STUDIES HE HAD DONE ON CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEIR STUDY ON THAT. Q. WHAT ELSE DID YOU -- WHAT WAS IN THE SECOND PILE? A. THE SECOND PILE, ACTUALLY, I THINK WAS -- THE SECOND PILE WAS -- ACTUALLY, THERE WAS A MAP THAT WAS PRODUCED. Q. WHAT KIND OF MAP? A. IT WAS A COMPUTER-GENERATED VEGETATION MAP OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA ONE, TWO AND THREE. Q. DONE BY WHO? A. THE AUTHOR ESCAPES ME FOR THE MOMENT. Q. WAS IT DENNIS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1335 A. NO. Q. OKAY. WHAT DID THE MAP SHOW? A. IT WAS A COMPUTER ANALYSIS OF THE VEGETATION ZONES IN WATER CONSERVATION AREAS ONE, TWO AND THREE, CATEGORIZING THEM INTO THE VARIOUS SUBCLASSES OF SAWGRASS, SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL, PREDOMINANT CATTAIL, OPEN WATER, ETCETERA. MR. REID: HAVE THOSE BEEN PRODUCED, RICK? MR. GREEN: NO. MR. REID: THEY HAVEN'T BEEN? MR. GREEN: NO. MR. REID: AND ARE THEY GOING TO BE? MR. GREEN: NO. MR. REID: OKAY. MR. GREEN: YEAH, THEY'RE GOING TO BE. THEY'RE PART OF ANOTHER WITNESS' DEPOSITION THAT'S COMING UP THURSDAY, I THINK. MR. REID: SO, THEY'LL BE PRODUCED THEN? MR. GREEN: YEAH. MAYBE BEFORE THEN. MR. REID: WHO IS THAT WITNESS? MR. GREEN: ED DOWNING, WITH LAW ENVIRONMENTAL. MR. REID: OKAY. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1336 DOWNING--- WITNESS: DINEEN--- MR. GREEN: YES, YES. MR. REID: OKAY. MR. GREEN: JUST FOR THE RECORD, IT'S A MAP I BROUGHT AND SHOWED PROFESSOR RICHARDSON. IT'S NOT ANYTHING THAT HE HAD EVER SEEN BEFORE YESTERDAY, AND WE WOULD HAVE PRODUCED IT. MR. REID: SURE. Q. (BY MR. REID) DID YOU DRAW ANY CONCLUSIONS FROM THE MAP? A. I ONLY LOOKED AT IT JUST VERY BRIEFLY. I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO REALLY EXAMINE IT. IT'S ONE THAT I, YOU KNOW, MAY LOOK AT. BUT BETWEEN YESTERDAY AFTERNOON AND TODAY, I--- Q. YOU DIDN'T LOOK FOR ANY PARTICULAR THINGS TO FIND OUT IF SOME OF YOUR VIEWS MAY AGREE WITH WHAT'S DEPICTED IN THE MAP OR NOT? A. WELL, I LOOKED AT SOME OF THE ZONES THAT I WAS FAMILIAR WITH IN WCA-2 IN A VERY CURSORY WAY ON A FIRST CUT, TO SEE IF IT MADE, YOU KNOW, SOME SEMBLANCE OF WHAT I UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION TO BE OUT THERE. Q. AND DID IT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1337 A. IT SEEMED TO FOLLOW PRETTY CLOSELY. Q. WHAT ELSE? A. IN TERMS OF DOCUMENTS? Q. IN THE SECOND PILE. A. YEAH. I WAS GIVEN -- I THINK IT WAS A MEMO OR A STATEMENT FROM TETRA TECH. Q. ABOUT WHAT? A. SETTLING RATES. Q. WHAT WAS THE IMPACT OF THAT OR SUBSTANCE OF THAT? A. WELL, AGAIN, I JUST GOT IT. I HAD NOT SEEN IT. I HAD BEEN TALKING TO THOSE PEOPLE, BUT I HAD NOT -- I JUST GOT THE DOCUMENT YESTERDAY AFTERNOON, SO--- Q. DID IT PURPORT TO DETERMINE SETTLING RATES? A. YES. Q. IN WHAT AREA? A. WCA-2A. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT? WHAT SETTLING RATE DID THEY ARRIVE AT? A. I'M DOING THIS FROM MEMORY. MY RECOLLECTION IS THEY CALCULATED IT TWO WAYS. THEY DID IT BY SEDIMENT ANALYSIS, FIRST TRYING TO DETERMINE IF WALKER'S SETTLING RATE ESTIMATE COULD BE MATCHED OR, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1338 LET'S SAY, THEY'D GET THE SAME RATE USING THE SAME INFORMATION. Q. WHAT DID THEY COME UP WITH? A. THEY CAME UP WITH THE SAME -- USING EXACTLY THE SAME INFORMATION INPUT, THEY GOT THE SAME NUMBER. Q. WHICH WAS WHAT? A. TEN POINT TWO FIVE (10.25), I BELIEVE; SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE SECOND WAY THEY DID IT? A. I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT I THINK THEY BROKE IT UP INTO SOME LONGITUDINAL SECTIONS AND STARTED LOOKING AT DIFFERENT SECTIONS, AND I DIDN'T HAVE A CHANCE TO PERUSE ALL THE DETAILS OF THE WRITING IN IT. BUT THEY HAD BASICALLY COME UP WITH A RANGE OF SETTLING RATES BY ZONES, AND I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THOSE RATES BUT THEY WERE -- A GOOD NUMBER OF THEM WERE LOWER THAN THE TEN. Q. DID THEY ONLY LOOK AT ZONES THAT RAN NORTH TO SOUTH, OR DID THEY ALSO LOOK AT ZONES THAT RAN EAST TO WEST? A. MY RECOLLECTION IS NORTH TO SOUTH. Q. WOULD IT BE THREE ZONES? A. THAT COULD BE. I'M JUST -- I MEAN, I JUST CAN'T -- I THINK IT WAS THREE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1339 Q. AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT DATA THEY USED TO ARRIVE AT THE SETTLING RATES IN THOSE ZONES? WAS IT THE SEDIMENT DATA, ALSO, OR--- A. I BELIEVE THEY USED THE SAME SEDIMENT DATA THAT DR. WALKER USED PRETTY MUCH. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT SEDIMENT DATA HE USED? A. WELL, THE DOCUMENTS THAT I REVIEWED OR HAVE SEEN, I CAN'T TOTALLY VERIFY EVERY BIT OF DATA THAT HE USED; BUT IN TERMS OF SEDIMENT DATA, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, I BELIEVE HE USED SOME OF DR. REDDY'S CORES AND MY CORES. Q. WAS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THIS MEMO THAT CHANGED YOUR VIEW, OR SUPPORTED YOUR VIEW OF THE CASE? A. WELL, IT WAS INTERESTING. THE SECOND PART OF THE MEMO BASICALLY WENT INTO CALCULATING SETTLING RATES FROM WATER COLUMN, WHICH YOU COULD DO -- YOU COULD DO IT ONE OF TWO WAYS. Q. HAS SOMEONE DONE THAT? A. THEY DID THAT. Q. AND WHAT DID THEY -- WELL, STRIKE THAT -- WHAT AREA WERE THEY WORKING IN? A. WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1340 Q. WHAT DATA WERE THEY USING? A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK. I DON'T REMEMBER THE YEARS, BUT THEY WERE USING AVAILABLE WATER COLUMN DATA WHICH THEY FLOW-WEIGHTED, ACCORDING TO WHAT THE DOCUMENTS SAID. Q. AND YOU DON'T KNOW THE SOURCE OF THIS WATER COLUMN DATA? A. I DON'T -- I DON'T RECALL. I MEAN, THIS IS NOT AN EXTENSIVE DOCUMENT WITH LOTS OF DOCUMENTATION BEHIND IT, SO I CAN'T -- I VAGUELY REMEMBER SOMETHING ABOUT THEM SAYING THE WATER DATA AVAILABLE FROM THE LATE 70'S TO SOMETIME IN THE 80'S, BUT I CAN'T BRACKET WHAT DATA THAT WAS. Q. AND DID THEY CALCULATE -- STRIKE THAT -- DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY POINTS, DATA POINTS, THEY HAD? A. NO. Q. DID THEY CALCULATE SETTLING RATES USING WATER COLUMN DATA? A. THEY DID. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT? A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THEY HAD THREE DIFFERENT ZONES. Q. NORTH TO SOUTH? A. UH-HUH (YES). AND THEY HAD SETTLING RATES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1341 THAT WERE LESS THAN ONE, AND ABOUT NINE, I THINK, IN THE OTHER TWO ZONES, OR SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. Q. WHEN I SAY "NORTH TO SOUTH," LET'S MAKE SURE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING. IF YOU LOOKED AT THE MAP, DID THEY DRAW LINES UP AND DOWN AND CREATE THREE--- A. THERE WERE NO MAPS--- Q. ---SIDE-BY-SIDE--- A. ---NO PICTURES AND NO FIGURES. Q. WELL, I UNDERSTAND, BUT DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT'S THE WAY THEY DID IT, OR DID THEY DRAW LINES ACROSS? A. I COULDN'T, FROM THAT DOCUMENT, TELL YOU, EXCEPT THEY SAID IT WAS A LONGITUDINAL, WHICH I WOULD ASSUME FROM THE GATES, NORTH TO SOUTH. Q. THEY DREW A LINE NORTH TO SOUTH--- A. I SAW NO LINES. Q. NO, NO. BUT I MEAN, IS THAT WHAT YOU UNDERSTOOD? A. THAT'S WHAT I WOULD UNDERSTAND. Q. OKAY. A. THEY TALKED ABOUT WATER FLOWING, I THINK, SOUTH, OR I CAN'T REMEMBER, I'VE READ SO MANY OF THESE THINGS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1342 Q. I MEAN, YOU UNDERSTAND THE TWO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS? A. EAST-TO-WEST VARIATION VERSUS NORTH-TO-SOUTH? Q. EXACTLY. A. YEAH, I BELIEVE THIS IS NORTH-TO-SOUTH. WELL, UNLESS--- Q. SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID MAKES IT SOUND LIKE WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING. A. WELL, I'M TALKING ABOUT SOUTH OF THE HILLSBOROUGH STRUCTURES. Q. YOU KNOW, IF THIS IS THE -- IF THIS IS THE 2A, IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY DID THIS AND THEY FIGURED A SETTLING ZONE IN EACH OF THOSE AREAS, OR DID THEY DO IT THREE LINES ACROSS--- A. 2A DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THAT. Q. OR WHATEVER. YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THAT. YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M TRYING TO -- THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. ALL RIGHT. DOES THAT -- WELL, THAT -- HE'LL SAY IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT, EITHER, BUT IS THAT CLOSE ENOUGH FOR 2A? A. I CAN TELL FROM 2A, RIGHT. Q. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. IS IT YOUR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1343 UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY DREW TWO LINES THIS WAY AND CALCULATED IN EACH AREA, OR DID THEY DRAW LINES THIS WAY AND CALCULATE IN THE THREE AREAS THAT WAY? THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT. A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THEY DID. IT WAS MY ASSUMPTION THAT THEY HAD DRAWN -- IF YOU COULD HOLD THE FIGURE BACK UP -- THEY HAD DRAWN IT FROM THESE SECTIONS. I THOUGHT IT WAS DIRECTLY SOUTH OF THE D, C AND A--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND I THOUGHT THEY JUST DREW THEM DIRECTLY FROM NORTH-SOUTH. Q. OKAY. A. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, BUT--- Q. SO, THEN, EACH OF THE SECTIONS -- BASED ON YOUR UNDERSTANDING, EACH OF THE SECTIONS WOULD HAVE -- THE TOP OF THE SECTION WOULD ABUT THE NEXT NORTHERN AREA, AND THE BOTTOM OF THE SECTION WOULD ABUT THE NEXT SOUTHERN AREA? A. THAT'S MY ASSUMPTION. AS I SAID, I GOT IT YESTERDAY AFTERNOON, SO I--- Q. SURE. NOW, USING THESE THREE ZONES, YOU SAID THEY FOUND SETTLING RATES IN ONE OF THE ZONES OF ONE GRAM--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1344 A. LESS THAN ONE. Q. ---GRAM PER YEAR? A. NO, THIS IS A SETTLING RATE. Q. I MEAN, METER PER YEAR. A. I BELIEVE IT WAS POINT SIX. Q. OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER WHICH ONE THAT WAS? A. THE NORTHERNMOST, I BELIEVE, THE FIRST ZONE -- WHAT THEY CALL ZONE ONE. Q. OKAY. SEE, NOW, BY YOUR SAYING "NORTHERNMOST," IT MAKES IT SOUND LIKE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I UNDERSTOOD YOU JUST TOLD ME. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE THIS ANY CLEARER. A. WELL, IS THE HILLSBOROUGH CANAL NOT IN THE NORTHERN PART OF WCA-2A? IF YOU -- I JUST USED THE COMPASS. IS IT NOT IN THE NORTHERN PART OF WCA-2A? WELL, LET'S SAY THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE HILLSBOROUGH. Q. OKAY. CAN YOU DRAW WHAT YOU BELIEVE WCA-2A LOOKS LIKE? A. I MEAN, THE NORTHERN PART OF--- MR. GREEN: FOR THE RECORD, I'M NOT AT ALL CONFUSED. I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY--- MR. REID: WELL, I THOUGHT I WAS, TOO, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1345 UNTIL HE JUST SAID SOMETHING THAT MADE ME THINK THAT HE HAD--- A. ---I THOUGHT NORTH WAS THIS WAY. MAYBE I'M WRONG. Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. SHOW ME WCA-2A. ALL RIGHT. A. THIS IS IT RIGHT HERE--- Q. OKAY. NOW--- A. ---AND THE `D' STRUCTURE IS HERE, OR HERE, ROUGHLY; AND THE `C' STRUCTURE IS HERE; AND THE `A' STRUCTURE IS HERE. Q. NOW, I WANT YOU TO -- I WANT YOU TO DRAW LINES THAT DIVIDE THAT INTO THE THREE SECTORS THAT YOU BELIEVE WILL REPRESENT THE THREE SECTORS THAT WERE BEING USED BY TETRA TECH. (THEREUPON, WITNESS DRAWS DIAGRAM.) Q. AND I UNDERSTAND THERE WAS NO -- THERE WERE NO LINES, BUT YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME WHAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING WAS. A. WELL, MY IDEA IS THEY SORT OF COMPOSITED THIS AND DID IT LIKE THIS; SO THEY WOULD BE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---THIS WOULD BE ZONE ONE AND THIS WOULD BE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1346 ZONE TWO AND THIS WOULD BE ZONE THREE--- Q. GREAT. OKAY. A. ---THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING. MR. REID: ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO MARK THIS AS NUMBER ONE JUST SO WE IN THE FUTURE WILL KNOW BECAUSE THAT'S THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE SAYING A MINUTE AGO. (THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO ABOVE WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 1 - CURTIS RICHARDSON DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.) WITNESS: SORRY. MR. REID: WE HAD THIS PROBLEM IN MARIN'S DEPOSITION, TOO, SO THAT'S WHY I'M SENSITIVE TO IT. MR. GREEN: WELL, I RESERVE THE RIGHT, IF THIS CREATES CONFUSION, TO HAVE IT -- TO BRING THE DOCUMENT--- MR. REID: WELL, THAT WOULD BE GREAT IF SOMEBODY WOULD BRING THE DOCUMENT IN--- MR. GREEN: IT'S BEEN -- IT'S BEEN PRODUCED. MR. REID: HAS IT, AS PART OF HIS RECORDS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1347 MR. GREEN: NO, IT'S BEEN PRODUCED TO MR. REED AND--- MR. REID: FINE. MR. GREEN: ---PART OF MR. GREEN'S DEPOSITION. Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. NOW, IN WHAT YOU -- WHAT YOU'VE CHARACTERIZED AS ROMAN NUMERAL I, IS THAT WHERE THE POINT SIX (.6) SETTLING RATE WAS FOUND? A. THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING, YES. Q. WHAT WAS THE SETTLING RATE IN THE MIDDLE AREA? A. MY RECOLLECTION WAS IT WAS AROUND NINE. THAT'S MY -- I COULD BE OFF A LITTLE BIT, BUT THAT'S WHAT MY RECOLLECTION IS. Q. AND WHAT WAS IT IN THE THIRD AREA, THE SOUTHERNMOST AREA? A. I THINK IT WAS ABOUT THE SAME; YOU KNOW, MAYBE SOME FRACTIONAL DIFFERENCES, BUT THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION. MR. GREEN: MAY I SEE THAT EXHIBIT BEFORE YOU GO ON? (THEREUPON, MR. GREEN LOOKS AT EXHIBIT.) MR. GREEN: IT'S JUST SHOWING RELATIVE NORTH AND SOUTH AND SO FORTH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1348 OKAY. THANKS. Q. (BY MR. REID) A MINUTE AGO WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SOIL CALCU -- THE SETTLING RATES BASED ON SOILS THAT THEY DID AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THREE SEGMENTS, THREE SECTIONS. WERE THESE THE SAME THREE SECTIONS? A. I BELIEVE SO. Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER -- STRIKE THAT. DO YOU KNOW -- CAN YOU GIVE ME ANY IDEA OF HOW WIDE THESE BANDS WERE? A. I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. HOW FAR DOWN THEY CAME? A. NO, I DON'T -- I DON'T REALLY WANT TO SAY. I JUST CAN'T REMEMBER IF I -- I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER IF THEY SAID HOW FAR DOWN THEY WERE. I MEAN, IT'S -- IT'S A DOCUMENT APPARENTLY YOU HAVE, SO YOU CAN LOOK AT IT AND DETERMINE THAT. I JUST CAN'T DO IT FROM MEMORY. Q. WELL, I HAVE PROBABLY HUNDREDS -- CERTAINLY, TENS OF THOUSANDS, AND MAYBE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, AND I DIDN'T KNOW -- I GUESS YOU DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL YESTERDAY THAT YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK AT IT FOR TODAY'S DEPOSITION, OR I WOULD HAVE BROUGHT IT. IF YOU HAD WRITTEN ME AND TOLD ME YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK AT IT BEFORE TODAY, I WOULD HAVE BROUGHT IT WITH ME. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1349 A. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T KNOW IF WAS. Q. I WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO BRING IT WITH ME IF I HAD KNOWN THAT I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT IT. ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT TETRA TECH MEMO THAT YOU RECALL? A. NO, IT WAS BASICALLY A SUMMARY OF THE ANALYSIS THAT APPARENTLY HAD -- WELL, THEY HAD DONE WITH THEIR MODEL. Q. DID THEIR NUMBERS SEEM ACCURATE BASED ON WHAT YOU KNOW? A. YOU KNOW, I HAVE NOT REALLY LOOKED AT THAT IN -- YOU MEAN IN TERMS OF SETTLING RATE--- Q. YES. A. ---OR ACCURATE IN TERMS OF WHAT WAY? Q. SETTLING RATE. A. WELL, IT COVERS THE -- ALMOST COVERS THE RANGE THAT I HAVE SEEN FOR THE NORTH AMERICAN DATABASE, POINT NINE TO THIRTY (.9 TO 30) SOMETHING. Q. WELL, I WAS ASKING YOU SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WCA-2A, OR WERE THOSE NUMBERS CONSISTENT WITH YOUR FINDINGS REGARDING SETTLING RATE OF WCA-2A? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. I HAVEN'T CALCULATED SETTLING RATES, PER SE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1350 I -- I MEAN, THAT'S NOT BEEN MY--- Q. OH, YOU HAVEN'T? A. NOT, PER SE. I MEAN, I -- I BASICALLY WORK WITH SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE AND HAVE BEEN HELPING THEM TO ANALYZE SETTLING RATES, BUT I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY BEEN--- Q. WELL, HAVEN'T YOU AT SOME POINT IN THE LAST FEW YEARS REPRESENTED WHAT YOU BELIEVE THE SETTLING RATE TO BE IN WCA-2A? A. I'VE STATED WHAT I THINK THE STORAGE RATE FOR PHOSPHORUS IS ON A GRAM PER METER SQUARED BASIS. Q. YOU HAVEN'T CALCULATED THE SETTLING -- YOU'VE NEVER TURNED THAT INTO A SETTLING RATE OF METERS PER YEAR? A. NOT DIRECTLY, NO; I'VE NOT DONE THAT. Q. WELL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN "NOT DIRECTLY"? HOW HAVE YOU DONE IT INDIRECTLY? A. WELL, ESSENTIALLY -- WELL, NOT EVEN INDIRECTLY. ESSENTIALLY, WHAT I HAVE DONE WITH MY FIELD STUDIES IS TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE AREA THAT'S BEEN IMPACTED AND TRY TO COME UP WITH A WEIGHTED ESTIMATE OF THE AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS THAT CAN BE STORED PER UNIT AREA UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS AT WCA-2A AS EXPERIENCED OVER THE LAST TWENTY-FIVE OR THIRTY YEARS. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1351 Q. AND YOU'VE NEVER TURNED THAT INTO A SETTLING RATE NUMBER WHICH REPRESENTS METERS PER YEAR? A. NO. AS I SAY, I -- BASICALLY, I'VE PROVIDED MY DATA AND WORKED WITH DR. MARIN. AND HE AND I JOINTLY HAVE COME UP WITH SOME SETTLING RATES. Q. A MINUTE AGO YOU SAID "IMPACTED AREA." WHAT DO YOU MEAN, IMPACTED BY WHAT? A. THE AREA -- THE AFFECTED AREA THAT'S -- THAT HAS ABOVE-BACKGROUND LEVELS OF PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. IS THAT YOUR DEFINITION OF "IMPACTED AREA"? A. FOR THIS -- FOR THIS ANALYSIS, IT WOULD BE. Q. FOR WHAT ANALYSIS? A. THE AREA THAT HAD BEEN AFFECTED BY NUTRIENT LEVELS. MR. REID: READ THAT BACK TO ME. (THEREUPON, THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEARING ON PAGE 1369, LINES 6-10, WERE REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MR. REID) BY "BACKGROUND AREA," DO YOU MEAN IN SOIL OR IN WATER? A. SOILS. Q. SO, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOUR TESTIMONY IS THAT YOU HAVE NOT EVER REPORTED OR ANNOUNCED A NUMBER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1352 THAT YOU'VE CALCULATED WHICH I CAN CALL A SETTLING RATE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. I MADE A PRESENTATION, I BELIEVE, AT ONE TIME AT A MEETING FOR THE STATE WHERE I HAD PRODUCED A REGRESSION AS A FIRST APPROXIMATION, BUT I DID NOT CALCULATE A SETTLING RATE. LET'S SAY I MADE AN APPROXIMATION OF THAT. Q. MADE AN APPROXIMATION OF WHAT? A. OF WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP WAS BETWEEN THE AMOUNT STORED IN THE GROUND AND WHAT PARTICULAR ACREAGE ONE WOULD NEED TO DETERMINE TONNAGE OF PHOSPHORUS TO BE REMOVED. Q. HAVE YOU EVER REPORTED TO ANYONE OR SAID TO ANYONE HOW MANY ACRES IT WOULD TAKE OF STORMWATER TREATMENT AREAS TO REMOVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS? A. WELL, I BELIEVE WE'VE WRITTEN IT IN SOME PAPERS FROM OUR FIELD ESTIMATES IF -- IF WHAT WAS FOUND IN 2A WAS THE SAME AS WHAT YOU'D FIND IN THE STA'S. WE'VE GIVEN SOME ESTIMATES ON THAT. Q. DID YOU HAVE TO ARRIVE AT A SETTLING RATE IN METERS PER YEAR IN ORDER TO THEN DETERMINE THE ACREAGE THAT WOULD BE NEEDED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1353 A. NO. WE -- WE USED A -- WE USED BASICALLY A FIELD ESTIMATE FOR THAT, AND THAT IS THE AMOUNT SURVEY LOAD RETENTION ESTIMATOR, AND BASICALLY CAN COME UP WITH SORT OF A FIRST APPROXIMATION. IF YOU KNOW IT TAKES A THOUSAND HECTARES TO REMOVE FOUR METRIC TONS ON AVERAGE, AND YOU'VE GOT FORTY METRIC TONS AND THE SYSTEM WORKS THAT WAY, YOU HAVE SOME ESTIMATE HOW MANY HECTARES YOU WOULD NEED TO REMOVE THAT TONNAGE. THE FIELD DATA ITSELF PROVIDES YOU A VERY ACCURATE, OR AS ACCURATE AS YOU CAN GET, ESTIMATOR OF WHAT THE WEIGHTED STORAGE IS. YOU ACTUALLY FIND IT IN THE GROUND, AND ONCE YOU CAN DETERMINE WHAT THE BASELINE IS, AND THEN WHAT THE ACCRETION RATES ARE, YOU CAN ACTUALLY COMPUTE, WHICH I HAVE DONE FOR A NUMBER OF PLOTS, THE ACTUAL STORAGE. AND, SO, THAT TELLS YOU WHAT WCA-2A ON AVERAGE HAS BEEN RETAINING, AND THAT'S -- AND WE SPENT THREE AND A HALF PLUS YEARS COMING UP WITH THAT NUMBER. Q. DO YOU THINK THE -- THAT A NUMBER WHICH IS CALLED A SETTLING RATE HAS ANY MEANING? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. IT'S AN ESTIMATE. IT'S AN ENGINEERING APPROACH, A ONE-LUMP PARAMETER APPROACH TO TRY TO COMBINE A LOT OF BIOLOGICAL, PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROCESSES QUITE OFTEN USED IN WASTEWATER TREATMENT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1354 PLANT SYSTEMS, AND IT GIVES YOU -- IT'S ONE APPROACH TO TRY TO ESTIMATE WHAT THIS WOULD BE. Q. IS IT A USEFUL NUMBER? A. IT CAN BE IF YOU HAVE TRANSFERABILITY -- IF YOU DON'T HAVE TRANSFERABILITY PROBLEMS AND YOU CAN ACCURATELY ESTIMATE ALL THE COMPONENTS OF IT. I WOULDN'T USE IT SINGLY BY ITSELF. I WOULD USE A VARIETY OF APPROACHES TO TRY TO COME UP WITH THIS. Q. IN THE TETRA TECH PAPER THAT YOU READ, WERE THEY ONLY USING SETTLING RATE -- THEY WERE ONLY ATTEMPTING TO CALCULATE THE SETTLING RATE? A. IN THAT PARTICULAR PAPER, BUT THEY WERE DOING IT TWO DIFFERENT WAYS. THEY WERE DOING SEDIMENT AND THEY WERE DOING WATER. Q. AND DO YOU KNOW IF DR. WALKER HAS DONE IT MORE THAN ONE WAY? A. I BELIEVE HE TRIED TO USE BOTH THE WATER AND THE SEDIMENT, TOO, YES. Q. DO YOU FIND FAULT IN HIS APPROACH? A. WHICH APPROACH? Q. DR. WALKER'S. A. BUT WHICH ONE OF HIS APPROACHES? Q. TO DETERMINE SETTLING RATE. A. WHICH--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1355 MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. ANY. A. ANY--- Q. ANY AND ALL. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) SURE. I WANT TO KNOW YOUR VIEWS ABOUT ALL OF THEM ULTIMATELY, SO TAKE THEM ONE AT A TIME. WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME EACH ONE AND THEN GIVE ME YOUR VIEW. A. OKAY. WELL, I THINK DR. WALKER HAS TAKEN THE DATA ABOUT AS FAR AS YOU CAN TAKE THE DATA IN THE WATER CASE. Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, HE HAS HAD -- HE HAS A LIMITED DATABASE FOR THE WATER COLUMN, WHICH HE'S HAD TO FLOW-WEIGHT, WHICH I DON'T HAVE A PARTICULAR PROBLEM WITH IF YOU HAVE THE APPROPRIATE NUMBERS TO FLOW-WEIGHT, AND TRIED TO COME UP WITH AN ESTIMATE OF SETTLING FROM THIS COMPONENT. Q. OKAY. AND DID TETRA TECH HAVE ADDITIONAL WATER DATA THAT THEY USED IN THE PAPER THAT YOU JUST READ? A. I'M NOT SURE. I DIDN'T HAVE A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THAT IN GREAT DETAIL. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1356 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ADDITIONAL DATA EXISTS, WATER DATA, THAN DR. WALKER USED? A. YES. WE HAVE SOME ADDITIONAL DATA--- Q. WATER DATA? A. ---WATER DATA, THAT I DON'T BELIEVE WAS USED. IT'S -- WE HAVE -- THERE MAY BE SOME OTHER DATAS. Q. WHERE -- TELL ME HOW IS YOUR DATA DESCRIBED. A. IT'S IN MY ANNUAL REPORT. Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT DR. WALKER DID NOT USE THAT DATA THAT'S IN YOUR ANNUAL REPORT? A. I DON'T BELIEVE HE DID. I BELIEVE HE USED DISTRICT DATA FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME. Q. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN 2A NOW, RIGHT? A. 2A. Q. OKAY. AND WHERE DID YOUR DATA COME FROM? A. 2A. Q. I MEAN, IT WAS DATA THAT YOU TOOK--- A. CORRECT. Q. ---YOU COLLECTED? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU HAVEN'T DONE A SETTLING RATE WITH THAT DATA? A. NO. Q. OKAY. HOW ELSE DID DR. WALKER DO IT? YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1357 MENTIONED THAT HE DID IT A NUMBER OF WAYS. A. HE THEN UTILIZED CORE DATA FROM DR. REDDY AND -- ORIGINALLY, AND DEVELOPED A SETTLING RATE. Q. YOU FOUND FAULT WITH THAT? A. WELL--- MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. ---THE SEDIMENT DATA GIVES YOU A LONG-TERM, TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT. THAT'S SORT OF A WEIGHTED AVERAGE. AND THE APPROACH, REALLY, IF I UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY, IS THAT HE WEIGHTS THAT SO IT GIVES YOU A SORT OF A MEAN VALUE FOR THAT LONG PERIOD, WHICH YOU CAN ARGUE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER AS BEING USEFUL. IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU MUCH IN TERMS OF ANNUAL VARIATION. BUT MY MAIN CONCERN WITH DR. WALKER'S ORIGINAL SEDIMENT ANALYSIS IS THAT IT WAS A VERY LIMITED DATA SET. Q. THE CORE DATA WAS FROM A LIMITED DATA SET? A. RIGHT, IT WAS A VERY LIMITED DATA SET, AND I THINK WAS ONLY -- I CAN'T REMEMBER -- LESS THAN TEN CORES, I THINK. Q. DID TETRA TECH HAVE MORE? A. WELL, I THINK IN THIS MOST RECENT ONE, THEY HAD MORE. THEY HAD MY DATA AND DR. WALKER'S DATA -- I MEAN, DR. REDDY'S DATA. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1358 Q. OKAY. NOW, HOW MUCH DATA HAVE YOU ADDED TO WHAT DR. WALKER HAD ORIGINALLY? A. WELL, DR. WALKER DID THE SECOND REITERATION ON THAT; I WANT TO POINT THAT OUT. HE ADDED SOME OF MY DATA TO THAT, TOO. Q. OKAY. WELL, I ASSUME WE WERE TALKING ABOUT DR. WALKER'S MOST CURRENT POSITION. A. OKAY. I HAD SAID EARLIER THAT HE HAD ORIGINALLY COME UP WITH THE SETTLING RATE USING THE, I THINK, THE FIRST SET OF DATA, THEN CAME BACK WITH MY DATA. Q. AND THAT CHANGED -- AND THAT'S WHEN THE SETTLING RATE WENT FROM EIGHT SOMETHING TO TEN SOMETHING; IS THAT RIGHT? A. I BELIEVE SO. Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S TALK THE TEN, HIS MOST RECENT -- I'VE FORGOTTEN -- WAS THAT MARCH OF '93? IS THAT THE RIGHT DATE? A. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. IS THAT THE ONE? A. YEAH. Q. OKAY. JUST GOING BACK FOR A SECOND, DID THAT CHANGE HIS WORK REGARDING THE WATER COLUMN DATA THAT HE USED IN THE MOST RECENT REPORT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1359 A. DID -- I'M SORRY -- DID--- Q. YEAH, YOU HAD SAID -- YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE WATER DATA THAT HE USED. WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE MARCH 8, '93, OR AN EARLIER ONE? A. MARCH 8, '93, HE USED SEDIMENT DATA; HE DIDN'T USE THE WATER. Q. OH, HE DIDN'T DO WATER IN THE SECOND ONE? A. NO. Q. OKAY. SO, THE WATER WOULD BE HIS ORIGINAL CALCULATION--- A. THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL ONE, WHICH HE -- EITHER HE'S ABANDONED OR NOT USING ANYMORE. THERE WERE SOME PROBLEMS WITH THAT WATER DATA IN TERMS OF VALIDATING SOME OF THE FLOW-WEIGHTS THAT WERE IN IT. THERE WERE CONSIDERABLE PROBLEMS, I THINK, IN SOME PLACES. Q. NOW, USING THE REDDY DATA AND USING SOME OF YOUR DATA--- A. CORRECT. Q. ---HE CAME UP WITH A SETTLING RATE OF TEN POINT TWO (10.2)? A. CORRECT. Q. NOW, THEN, MY QUESTION THEN IS DID YOU FIND A PROBLEM WITH THAT DETERMINATION? A. YES. MY ORIGINAL PROBLEM IS -- WAS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1360 ESSENTIALLY WHEN WE STARTED TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE DATA AND SOME OF OUR CORES -- WE WERE COLLECTING CORES AS WE -- AS WE WERE MOVING ALONG THROUGH THE PERIOD; AND I HAD ORIGINALLY LOOKED AT SOME OF DR. REDDY'S DATA, AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT HIS PLOT AND YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE DATA, YOU FIND THERE'S ONE PARTICULAR CORE THAT STICKS WAY OUT. Q. R-10? A. R-10. Q. OKAY. WHAT ELSE? A. SO, WE TOOK SOME ADDITIONAL CORES IN THAT AREA TO SEE WHY THAT PARTICULAR NUMBER WAS SO HIGH COMPARED TO SOME OF THE OTHERS, BECAUSE IF YOU TALK TO ANY STATISTICIANS OR ANALYZE THAT, YOU FIND THAT THAT PARTICULAR DATA POINT WEIGHTS THE WHOLE PROGRESSION. AND JUST SCIENTIFICALLY, I WAS QUITE CURIOUS AND INTERESTED BECAUSE THAT -- THAT NUMBER IS PUSHING QUITE HIGH IN TERMS OF WHAT I'M FAMILIAR WITH IN TERMS OF STORAGE. AND I WANTED TO SEE WHAT THE NUMBER WOULD BE; I MEAN, IF IT WAS THAT HIGH, IT WAS THAT HIGH. Q. WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT? A. WE TOOK SOME CORES CLOSER TO THE CANAL STRUCTURE TO SEE IF WE COULD FIND OUT WHAT THE RATES WERE, IF THEY CONTINUED TO -- CONTINUE UP, AND ADDED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1361 THOSE CORES TO THE SYSTEM WITH DR. -- DR. MARIN AND I WORKED ON THAT. Q. WERE THOSE THE THREE NEW CORES THAT YOU TOOK? A. CORRECT. Q. NOW, ONE OF THOSE WAS NO GOOD. WHAT WAS THE REASON THAT YOU THREW ONE OF THEM OUT? A. WELL, WE ANALYZED ALL THE CORES; WE DIDN'T THROW IT OUT. Q. WELL, THERE WAS SOME PROBLEM YOU DIDN'T USE ONE OF THE THREE--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---WHY DID YOU--- A. AND IT HAD -- THAT CORE, WHEN YOU DO A CESIUM CORE, YOU GET -- YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PEAK, AND YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE THE PERCENT RECOVERY OF THE CESIUM AND YOU HAVE TO SEE IF YOU HAVE A CLEAR PEAK OF THE CESIUM. AND IF YOU DON'T, IF THERE'S MIXING OR BIOTURBATION, YOU WILL GET A SMEARED PEAK AT SEVERAL DIFFERENT DEPTHS, AND THEN IT BECOMES SORT OF A GUESS AS TO WHAT THE REAL PEAK IS BECAUSE OF THIS BLURRING OF THE PEAKS. AND WHEN WE DID THIS THIRD CORE -- WE HAD TWO VERY GOOD CORES, ONE NEAR THE 10-C STRUCTURE, ONE NEAR THE 10-A STRUCTURE -- THE THIRD CORE WAS TAKEN NEAR THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1362 10-D STRUCTURE, BUT THAT CORE HAD TWO AND POSSIBLY THREE PEAKS AND, ALSO, THE PERCENTAGE OF RECOVERY OF THE CESIUM IN IT WAS EXTREMELY LOW, WHICH TELLS US THAT WHEN YOU DON'T GET A HIGH RECOVERY AND YOU LOOK IN THE PROFILE, YOU BEGIN TO SEE THAT, IN FACT, THERE HAS BEEN DISTURBANCE, FOR WHATEVER REASON, AND SO IT BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT TO -- IT WOULD NOT BE A CORE THAT ANY SOIL SCIENTIST WHO USES THAT WOULD USE. YOU WOULD HAVE TO DUPLICATE OR REPLICATE THAT CORE AGAIN. AND, SO, WE DID NOT USE THAT CORE. Q. NOW, THE OTHER TWO THAT YOU DID USE, DID THEY LEAD YOU TO ANY CONCLUSIONS ABOUT REDDY'S R-10 POINT? A. YES. THEY BASICALLY SHOWED RANGES THAT WERE RIGHT IN THE RANGE OF WHAT WE HAD FROM OUR OTHER NINETEEN OR TWENTY CORES. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY FELL RIGHT OUT EXACTLY ON THE REGRESSION LINE WHERE THEY SHOULD BE AND WERE -- I BELIEVE HIS RATE WAS SOMETHING LIKE ONE POINT ONE SOMETHING, AND THESE RATES WERE LIKE POINT SIX, POINT FIVE SOMETHING, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT. Q. DID YOU BELIEVE THAT THE REDDY R-10 POINT WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN OUTLIER? A. DID I BELIEVE IT WAS AN OUTLIER? Q. YEAH. A. I WASN'T SURE WHETHER IT WAS GOING TO BE. YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1363 CAN'T JUST THROW DATA OUT BECAUSE YOU THINK IT'S AN OUTLIER. YOU HAVE TO BASICALLY TRY TO VALIDATE IS THERE SOME REASON FOR THAT. Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION? A. WELL, STATISTICALLY, IT IS THE ONE THAT WEIGHTS IT, SO YOU HAVE A STATISTICAL ARGUMENT; AND THEN WE TRY TO VALIDATE AND SEE IF, IN FACT, WE WOULD -- AS I JUST WENT THROUGH THE FIELD DATA, TO SUPPORT WHETHER WE WOULD GET SIMILAR NUMBERS OR LOWER NUMBERS, AND SO WE -- WE GOT LOWER NUMBERS. AND THEN, THIRDLY, I LOOKED AT THE PEAK ITSELF AND TALKED TO DR. REDDY ABOUT THAT. Q. AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU? A. HE TOLD ME HE THOUGHT IT WAS A POOR CORE. HE WAS -- HE HAD SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THAT CORE. Q. THE R-10 CORE? A. CORRECT. Q. SO, YOU WOULD CONSIDER IT TO BE AN OUTLIER? A. I WOULD. Q. WELL, NOW, A MINUTE AGO, YOU SAID "WE GOT LOWER VALUES" OR SOMETHING; YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SETTLING RATE VALUES? A. NO, STORAGE GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR. Q. WELL, WE'RE GOING BACK TO -- WE'RE TALKING DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1364 ABOUT DR. WALKER'S ANALYSIS OF THE SETTLING RATE. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HIS ULTIMATE CALCULATION OF TEN USING THE CORE DATA THAT EXISTS IS IN ERROR? A. I DO. Q. WHY? A. I BELIEVE THAT, AS I ADDED THESE NEW CORES, THAT ARE ADDED, DR. MARIN AND I BASICALLY RE-ANALYZED THE DATA THEN USING HIS MODEL JUST FOR THOSE CORES, AND IT REDUCES THE SETTLING RATE USING -- EVERYTHING ELSE BEING THE SAME IN HIS MODEL; AND IF YOU REMOVE THE R-10 CORE, IT REDUCES THE SETTLING RATE EVEN MORE. AND SIMPLY BY REMOVING THE R-10 CORE ITSELF, JUST DOING THAT REDUCES SETTLING RATE CONSIDERABLY. Q. YOU SAY YOU AND MARIN DID SOMETHING TOGETHER; WHAT DID YOU DO? A. DR. MARIN AND I BASICALLY -- I PROVIDED HIM THE DATA, HE DID THE MODELING ANALYSIS. Q. WHEN YOU SAY HE DID THE MODELING, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. HE BASICALLY TOOK THE MODELS THAT DR. WALKER -- AND THE DATABASE THAT DR. WALKER PROVIDED FROM HIS MARCH 8TH MATERIALS AND SOME OTHER MATERIALS, AND THEN PLUGGED IN THE MODELS IN THE COMPUTER AND BASICALLY REGENERATED -- DR. WALKER, USING EXACTLY WHAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1365 HE HAD, THAT MODEL, TO REGENERATE THE ORIGINAL TEN POINT TWO FIVE AND THEN STARTED RE-ANALYZING THE DATA IN TERMS OF THESE CORES THAT I JUST TALKED ABOUT. Q. AND BASED ON THAT, YOU BELIEVE WALKER'S NUMBERS ARE WRONG, HIS SETTLING RATES WERE? A. BASED ON THAT AND MY OTHER UNDERSTANDING OF THE SYSTEM. BUT BASED ON JUST THAT, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT MODEL; AND, AS I SAID, IT'S A ONE-LUMP PARAMETER MODEL, I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT, ALTHOUGH IT'S A FIRST APPROXIMATION. BUT IF YOU BASE IT ON THAT AND GO THROUGH THAT ANALYSIS, YOU CAN DROP THAT NUMBER THIRTY PERCENT BY JUST DROPPING ONE CORE AND ADDING TWO MORE. Q. DID TETRA TECH USE THE NEW CORES THAT YOU HAVE -- THAT YOU HAVE? A. I'M NOT SURE. Q. DID THEY DROP THE R-10 CORE? A. I'M NOT SURE. Q. WHEN WERE THESE TWO NEW CORES DONE, OR WHEN WERE THE THREE DONE THAT--- A. RIGHT--- Q. ---ONLY TWO WERE USED? A. ---THESE CORES WERE DONE -- OH, GOSH -- A YEAR AGO, I WOULD SAY, OR MAYBE -- MAYBE MORE THAN -- WELL, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1366 I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE DATES; I'M NOT SURE. BUT, I MEAN, IT'S--- Q. SOMETIME IN '93? A. I THINK SOMETIME IN -- I WANT TO SAY -- I'M TRYING TO THINK. THE DATA WAS PROVIDED TO YOU IN MY LAST DEPOSITION, I BELIEVE, OR AT LEAST PART OF IT. YOU HAVE THE DATA. Q. OF THESE THREE NEW CORES? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. OKAY. SO, IT WAS BEFORE JANUARY OF '93? A. I BELIEVE -- THAT'S WHAT MY RECOLLECTION IS BECAUSE I KNOW WHEN WE WERE GOING THROUGH DOCUMENT PRODUCTION-TYPE STUFF, WE HAD A CONFUSION AS TO -- WE HAVE ALREADY PRODUCED SO MANY BOXES OF STUFF, WE DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT AGAIN. I BELIEVE OUR SUMMARY WAS THAT WE HAD ALREADY PROVIDED THAT DATA. Q. DID WALKER ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE SETTLING RATE USING ANY OTHER METHODS? A. HE MAY HAVE; THAT'S THE ONLY ONES I'VE SEEN. Q. JUST USING THE -- TO SUMMARIZE, HE WAS USING THE WATER IN HIS FIRST ITERATION, AND THEN HE USED -- I'M SORRY -- WATER AND ALSO SOILS IN HIS FIRST ITERATION, AND ONLY SOILS IN THE SECOND ITERATION WITH NEW DATA? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1367 A. IN A SENSE, YES. HE OBVIOUSLY HAS TO HAVE THE LOAD IN AND ALL THE OTHER ASPECTS, RAINFALL AND SO FORTH, BUT--- Q. RIGHT. AND IN HIS MARCH '93, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE HE USED YOUR -- THESE THREE NEW SAMPLES THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HERE? A. I DO NOT BELIEVE SO. Q. AND -- BUT HE DID USE SOME ADDITIONAL DUKE DATA, YOU SAY? A. HE DID. Q. AND WHAT DATA DID HE USE FROM DUKE THAT WAS NEW? NEW CORES? A. WELL, WE HAD PROVIDED FOR HIM -- WE PROVIDED TO, ACTUALLY, THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT IN OUR ANNUAL REPORT ALL THE CORES THAT -- WE HAVE TO DO ALL OF OUR RAW DATA, AND THE CORES ARE ALL PROVIDED. WE HAVE AN APPENDIX IN OUR ANNUAL REPORT. WE PROVIDED THAT, I BELIEVE, AFTER THE SAGE MEETING. THERE WAS A SAGE MEETING, AND WE PROVIDED -- WE WERE ASKED TO PROVIDE DR. WALKER THROUGH THE DISTRICT ALL THE DATA THAT WE HAD AT THAT TIME, WHICH WE DID. Q. WHICH WOULD HAVE INCLUDED THESE THREE CORES? A. NO, THEY WERE NOT DONE AT THAT TIME. Q. OKAY. AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHEN THAT WAS, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1368 THE SAGE MEETING YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. NO, I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT -- I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. NOW, THAT PARTICULAR DATA THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, HAS THAT BEEN CHANGED IN ANY OF YOUR SUBSEQUENT ANNUAL REPORTS? A. THERE HAS BEEN NO ANNUAL REPORT SINCE THAT TIME, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT. OH, THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE -- I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. THEY WERE NOT ANALYZED IN TIME FOR THE LAST ANNUAL REPORT. I DON'T BELIEVE THEY'RE IN THERE. I BELIEVE THEY ARE MENTIONED IN THE QUARTERLY REPORTS, IN ONE OR TWO OF THE QUARTERLY REPORTS AS THEY WERE DONE. Q. LET ME -- WE'RE SORT OF GETTING ALL FOULED UP HERE. LET ME SEE IF I CAN UNDERSTAND. WALKER ORIGINALLY USED REDDY SOIL DATA? A. CORRECT. Q. AND THEN IN MARCH OF '93, HE USED REDDY SOIL DATA PLUS SOME DUKE DATA? A. EIGHTEEN CORES FROM DUKE. Q. EIGHTEEN CORES FROM DUKE? A. EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. THAT DID NOT INCLUDE THE THREE CORES THAT YOU TOOK AT THE R-10 AREA? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1369 A. WE DID NOT TAKE THREE CORES AT R-10 AREA. Q. I THOUGHT -- OKAY. I THOUGHT YOU TOOK THREE, AND ONLY USED TWO? A. NO. WE TOOK CORES AT HALF THE DISTANCE TO A, C AND D. Q. HALF THE DISTANCE--- A. CLOSER TO THE -- WE WANTED TO GET WITHIN THE SAME DISTANCE THAT DR. REDDY WAS TAKING, THE IDEA BEING THAT HE HAD TAKEN CORES CLOSER TO HILLSBOROUGH CANAL THAN US. AND THE IDEA WAS THAT OUR ORIGINAL EIGHTEEN CORES WERE FURTHER AWAY; AND, THEREFORE, HE HAD FIELD DATA THAT WE DID NOT HAVE THAT BASICALLY SAID THE STORAGE PER UNIT AREA CONTINUED TO RISE AS YOU WENT CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE HILLSBOROUGH CANAL. WE HAD NO WAY TO VALIDATE THAT WITHOUT DOING OTHER CORES. Q. OKAY. A. SO, WE WENT, THEN, AND TOOK CORES CLOSER TO THE HILLSBOROUGH CANAL TO TRY TO VALIDATE THAT. Q. NOW, WHEN WERE YOUR EIGHTEEN CORES TAKEN? A. OH, THEY WERE TAKEN IN '91 AND '92, PROBABLY -- PROBABLY SOME PARTS IN '90. THESE THINGS TAKE -- TOOK SEVERAL YEARS TO DO ALL THESE CORES. THESE ARE VERY TIME CONSUMING. Q. AND CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN THE THREE ADDITIONAL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1370 CORES WERE ACTUALLY TAKEN? A. THEY WERE TAKEN AFTER THAT SAGE MEETING. Q. AND WHEN WAS THAT SAGE MEETING? A. I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. BUT THEY WERE TAKEN BEFORE YOUR DEPOSITION IN JANUARY OF '93? MR. BURGESS: NO -- OBJECT TO THE FORM -- HE DIDN'T SAY THAT. MR. REID: WELL, HE SAID HE GAVE US INFORMATION -- HE SAID HE GAVE US THE INFORMATION AT HIS DEPOSITION, SO--- WITNESS: WELL--- MR. REID: ---SO, I ASSUME THAT MEANS THEY WERE TAKEN BEFORE HIS DEPOSITION, BUT -- WELL, THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO CLEAR UP. WITNESS: RIGHT; SURE, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT. Q. (BY MR. REID) DID YOU GIVE US SOME INFORMATION ON THE THREE -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY THE THREE CORES? A. YES, YES, YES--- Q. OKAY--- A. ---I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHEN, YOU KNOW--- Q. DID YOU GIVE US THAT INFORMATION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1371 A. ---YOU KNOW, THESE ARE A LOT OF DATES AND TIMES, AND I'M TRYING TO BE VERY -- I'M--- Q. OH, I UNDERSTAND. A. ---TRYING TO CLEAR THIS UP. Q. I UNDERSTAND. A. I WOULD HAVE GIVEN YOU EVERYTHING THAT WE WOULD HAVE HAD. WE PROVIDED, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY BOXES. I ASKED DR. CRAFT THAT SPECIFICALLY THIS TIME, SO TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAD THESE. HE SAID -- I TALKED TO HIM A FEW WEEKS AGO -- "WE PROVIDED THAT INFORMATION TO THEM AT THE LAST DEPOSITION." Q. WHAT INFORMATION WAS HE TALKING ABOUT? A. THE THREE CORES. I SAID, "HAVE WE PROVIDED ALL THE INFORMATION?" HE SAID, "YES." NOW, IT IS -- THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CALCULATED. IT MAY HAVE BEEN JUST THE RAW COUNTS, IT MAY HAVE BEEN -- THERE'S -- I'M NOT SAYING THERE WAS A FILE THERE THAT SAYS "THE NUMBER IF POINT SIX OR POINT FIVE TWO." THERE MAY HAVE BEEN JUST SIMPLY RAW DATA SHEETS, I DON'T KNOW. WE HAD TO PROVIDE EVERYTHING TO YOU, AND WE DID. NOW, I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK WITH HIM TO SEE IF WE SPECIFICALLY HAD FINISHED THE CALCULATIONS. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. Q. DID WALKER USE ANY DATA FROM YOUR THREE NEW DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1372 CORES IN HIS MARCH '93 VERSION? A. NO. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, WHEN I LOOK AT THE FIGURES, IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THEY'RE THERE. Q. BY "FIGURES," YOU MEAN THE FINAL SETTLING RATE THAT HE ARRIVED AT? A. NO, THERE'S ACTUALLY A DIAGRAM SHOWING DISTANCE AND CORES; AND I LOOKED AT THEM AND, BASICALLY, THEY'RE NOT THERE--- Q. OKAY. HOW--- A. ---AS FAR AS I CAN TELL. Q. ---HOW COULD ONE IDENTIFY THESE THREE CORES? I MEAN, WE TALKED ABOUT REDDY R-10. DO THESE CORES HAVE NAMES OR IDENTIFYING CHARACTERIZATIONS? A. THEY WOULD -- YOU MEAN IN MY FILES? Q. WHEREVER THEY APPEAR, IN YOUR ANNUAL REPORT OR--- A. AS I SAID, I DON'T BELIEVE THEY'RE IN THE ANNUAL REPORT. THEY WOULD BE IDENTIFIED AS "A1/2, C1/2 AND D1/2." Q. A1/2--- A. C1/2--- Q. ---C AND D? A. ---D1/2. Q. OKAY. A. I BELIEVE THAT'S THE DESIGNATION BECAUSE WE -- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1373 WE TRY TO MOVE CLOSER TO THAT SITUATION, TO THE DIKE, SO WE DID THAT. Q. AND WHENEVER THEY'RE REFERRED TO IN YOUR PUBLICATIONS OR DOCUMENTS, THAT'S HOW THEY'LL BE IDENTIFIED? A. WE WILL REFER TO THEM PROBABLY AS -- YEAH -- A-HALF OR WHATEVER. Q. NOW, YOU DID AN ANNUAL REPORT IN DECEMBER '92, WHICH WAS REVISED IN APRIL '93? A. CORRECT. Q. AND THAT'S THE MOST RECENT ANNUAL REPORT? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. THESE THREE PIECES OF DATA ARE NOT IN THAT REPORT? A. I'M NOT POSITIVE. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK. I DON'T -- I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. WOULD THEY BE AN APPENDIX, OR WOULD THEY BE IN THE BODY OF THE REPORT? A. IF I HAD THE DOCUMENTS, I COULD TELL YOU. I MEAN, WE COULD LOOK THROUGH IT--- Q. I MEAN, QUICKLY, COULD YOU -- I'VE GOT THEM RIGHT HERE IF YOU--- A. WE COULD LOOK AT THEM, SURE. Q. YEAH. I MEAN, I WASN'T GOING TO GET INTO ALL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1374 THIS RIGHT NOW, BUT IF YOU--- A. I COULD TELL YOU WHETHER -- I JUST CAN'T REMEMBER; I'M SORRY. Q. OH, THAT'S FINE. I'LL FIND OUT WHERE THE APPENDIX STARTS HERE. DO YOU WANT THE APPENDIX OR THE REPORT? A. WHATEVER YOU WANT ME TO LOOK AT. Q. WELL, NO, YOU NEED TO TELL ME WHERE IT WOULD LIKELY BE. I DON'T, YOU KNOW--- A. WELL, THE APPENDIX IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE ALL THE DATA THAT'S AVAILABLE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THE REPORT'S SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE--- Q. WHY DON'T YOU LOOK IN THE APPENDIX AND I'LL SEE IF I HAVE THE REPORT. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) MR. GREEN: COUNSEL, IS THIS THE APRIL '92 REPORT WE'RE LOOKING AT? MR. REID: YEAH, IT'S REVISED APRIL '93, SO I ASSUME THAT WOULD BE CALLED APRIL. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) Q. (BY MR. REID) AND HERE'S THE ANNUAL REPORT. A. OKAY. IF I CAN JUST FIND IT IN ONE, IS THAT GOING TO SATISFY YOU, OR DO YOU WANT IT IN BOTH OR--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1375 Q. NO, I JUST WANT TO KNOW IF THAT DATA'S INCLUDED. IT DOESN'T -- IT MAY BE MENTIONED A LOT OF TIMES. A. IT MAY TAKE ME A COUPLE MINUTES TO GO THROUGH THIS, SO BEAR WITH ME HERE. YOU CAN SEE THERE'S A LOT OF DATA IN HERE. (THEREUPON, WITNESS CONTINUES TO REVIEW THE DOCUMENT.) A. WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR IS THE DATE. NORMALLY WE SAY IN THE REPORTS, EVEN THOUGH THE REPORT MAY COME OUT LATER, "THIS ONLY INCLUDES DATA UP TO THIS POINT," AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR. Q. WELL, THAT ISN'T GOING TO HELP US BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW THE DATES THESE WERE TAKEN. A. NO, I DON'T -- OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, I DON'T, BUT WE CAN OBTAIN THAT. I MEAN, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT--- Q. I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THESE THREE CORES WERE INCLUDED IN ANY OF THE ANALYSIS CONTAINED IN THE MOST RECENT ANNUAL REPORT. A. WELL, I THINK I TOLD YOU THAT I THOUGHT THE NUMBERS FROM THESE CORES, THE SUMMARY NUMBERS, WERE PRODUCED. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT THEY WERE PUT INTO THE QUARTERLY REPORT SOMEWHERE, WHICH IS MORE RECENT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1376 BUT WE PRODUCED THOUSANDS OF NUMBERS, SO IT'S VERY HARD FOR ME TO KIND OF REMEMBER WHICH NUMBERS WERE PRODUCED WHERE. MR. BURGESS: OFF THE RECORD FOR A SECOND. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT YOU HAVE THIS DATA. Q. WE MAY VERY WELL HAVE IT NOW. SINCE IT HAS BECOME SO IMPORTANT, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHEN IT WAS DONE, IF THAT'S POSSIBLE. A. OH, I THINK WE CAN DETERMINE THAT. I MEAN, I MAY NOT BE ABLE TO TELL YOU OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT I--- Q. OKAY. WELL, YOU WANT TO JUST TELL ME TOMORROW? MAYBE YOU COULD ASK SOMEBODY TONIGHT; IT'D SAVE DIGGING THROUGH THERE? A. YEAH. I MEAN, I -- IT'S--- MR. GREEN: COUNSEL, IS THE -- THE QUESTION IS WHEN WERE THE REPORTS TAKEN? MR. REID: OR WHEN WERE THEY READY TO BE USED. I'M NOT -- BECAUSE OF THE GAP IN TIME, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1377 I WANT TO KNOW--- WITNESS: YEAH, BECAUSE WHEN THEY WERE TAKEN IS REALLY IMMATERIAL BECAUSE IT TAKES SEVERAL MONTHS FOR THESE TO BE ANALYZED. MR. REID: AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN DOING THIS HAVE BEEN USING THESE CORES OR NOT. WITNESS: LET ME JUST CHECK ONE THING HERE REAL QUICK. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) WITNESS: BEAR WITH ME HERE. WELL, IT'S GOING TO BE -- YOU KNOW, I WILL HAVE--- MR. REID: OKAY. A. I CAN -- I CAN TRY TO RUSTLE THAT UP FOR YOU BY TOMORROW SO THAT YOU -- YOU WANT TO KNOW THE DATE, WHEN THEY WERE AVAILABLE? Q. TO BE USED BY ANYBODY, SURE. A. TO BE USED? Q. SURE. AND THESE WERE TAKEN IN WCA-2A? A. CORRECT. Q. SO, YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO TURN IT OVER AS YOU DID SOME OF THE STUFF YOU TOOK AS PART OF THE ACCESS AGREEMENTS? A. HUH-UH (NO). WE TOOK THEM FOR -- AS I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1378 MENTIONED, THE SCIENTIFIC PURPOSES TO FIND OUT WHAT -- WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THAT TREND CONTINUED CLOSER TO -- I WASN'T CALCULATING SETTLING RATES. Q. YOU HAD GOTTEN UP TO -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SECOND PILE OF THINGS YOU LOOKED AT YESTERDAY, AND WE DIGRESSED ON THE TETRA TECH MEMORANDUM. ANYTHING ELSE IN THE SECOND PILE THAT YOU LOOKED AT? A. I THINK THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS IN THE SECOND PILE. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE THIRD PILE, OR WAS THERE A THIRD PILE? A. YEAH, THE THIRD PILE WAS PRIMARILY PRIVILEGE LISTS, I BELIEVE. Q. THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTS OR A LIST? A. GOSH, DID WE LOOK AT THE LIST -- IT WAS THE DOCUMENTS, I BELIEVE. Q. DID ANYTHING ELSE HAPPEN IN THIS MEETING YESTERDAY? A. ANYTHING ELSE? I MEAN, THAT'S -- YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, WHAT I'VE TOLD YOU IS WE BASICALLY DISCUSSED LOTS OF DOCUMENTS, NEW INFORMATION WAS PRESENTED, I DISCUSSED WHERE WE WERE ON THE ANALYSIS OF PARK DATA, WHERE WE WERE ON THAT. Q. DID YOU DISCUSS THE OPINIONS THAT YOU HAVE FOR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1379 THIS LITIGATION? A. I WAS TOLD TO BASICALLY COLLECT MY THOUGHTS IN TERMS OF THIS AND GET MY OPINIONS TOGETHER. WE'VE HAD ACTUALLY SOME EARLIER MEETINGS PRIOR TO THAT TO -- TO BASICALLY HAVE ME START TO COME TO SOME CONCLUSION POINTS ON WHAT I HAD -- MY DATA HAD ANALYZED AND WHAT I HAD AND WHETHER MY -- WHERE MY OPINIONS WERE AND WHERE THE RESEARCH WAS THAT MIGHT BE AVAILABLE AND SO ON. Q. WHEN WERE YOU TOLD TO HAVE THIS DONE BY? A. WELL, THEY TOLD ME TO TRY TO GET AS MUCH OF THIS COLLECTED TOGETHER IN MY -- AS MUCH AS I COULD BASICALLY PULL TOGETHER IN MY FREE TIME, BY THE DEPOSITION TIME. Q. TODAY? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. YESTERDAY THEY TOLD YOU TO PULL YOUR THOUGHTS TOGETHER--- A. NO, NO. WE'VE HAD SOME -- I SAID WE HAD SOME PREVIOUS MEETINGS PRIOR--- Q. WELL, HAD YOU -- DID YOU PULL THEM TOGETHER? A. WELL, I PULLED SOME THINGS TOGETHER, YEAH. I MEAN, WE'RE TRYING -- TRIED TO -- YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING'S NOT FINISHED BUT WE TRIED TO BASICALLY LOOK AT SOME OF THE INFORMATION. AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1380 I'M WORKING ON OTHER THINGS. I'M TRYING TO GET THE ANNUAL REPORT DONE, I'M TRYING TO GET STUDENTS FINISHED, RESEARCH PAPERS DONE; I'VE GOT TONS OF OTHER THINGS THAT I'M TRYING TO COMPLETE ALL AT THE SAME TIME. GRADUATION'S COMING UP IN FOUR WEEKS. I'VE GOT A LOT OF STUDENTS WHO WOULD LIKE TO GRADUATE. Q. BEFORE YESTERDAY, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD A MEETING ABOUT THIS CASE? A. THE FRIDAY PREVIOUS. Q. WHERE WAS THAT MEETING? A. ATLANTA. Q. THAT WOULD BE -- WHAT WAS THAT -- 25TH OR THE 18TH? THREE DAYS AGO? A. LET'S SEE; YEAH. THE LAST FEW WEEKS HAVE BEEN A BLUR, SO BEAR WITH ME. Q. SO, THAT WOULD BE MARCH 25TH--- A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. ---THAT WAS FRIDAY, WASN'T IT? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. WHERE WAS THAT MEETING? A. ATLANTA. Q. WHERE IN ATLANTA? A. THE MARRIOTT, AIRPORT. Q. WHO WAS THERE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1381 A. RICK BURGESS, JOHN DAVIS, DENNIS LETTENMAIER, RON MUNSON -- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE OTHER -- RON MUNSON; WHAT'S THE GUY -- A STATISTICIAN -- IT'LL COME TO ME IN A MINUTE. LET'S SEE, WHO ELSE? WELL, I THINK THAT ABOUT COVERS MOST WHO WERE THERE. Q. JUST ONE LAWYER? A. LET ME THINK. I GUESS KOBELINSKI WAS THERE. I--- Q. ANY OTHER SCIENTISTS? A. LET ME THINK HERE FOR A MINUTE. WELL, I WAS THERE, OBVIOUSLY. MR. BURGESS: I'M WONDERING. WITNESS: I DON'T PAY -- I DON'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO ALL THIS STUFF, WHO WAS THERE, WHO WAS NOT THERE. DR. MAFFEI: I DON'T FEEL SO BAD ANYMORE. I CAN'T REMEMBER FOUR YEARS AGO; BUT THE CAN'T REMEMBER FOUR DAYS AGO. A. BOB BLANK, HE WAS PROBABLY THERE. Q. ANYBODY WHO REPRESENTS THE CO-OP? A. NO. Q. THAT'S ALL YOU CAN THINK OF RIGHT NOW? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. HOW LONG DID THE MEETING LAST? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1382 A. ALL DAY. Q. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING? A. PRIMARILY TO ORGANIZE THE INFORMATION THAT'S AVAILABLE, I GUESS, FOR THE HEARING, IS A SIMPLE WAY TO SAY IT. Q. WAS EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM ALL THE TIME? A. NOT ALL THE TIME, NO. Q. I MEAN, OTHER THAN JUST IN AND OUT? A. PRETTY MUCH. Q. WERE ASSIGNMENTS GIVEN OUT? A. OTHER THAN SOME ORGANIZATIONAL ASSIGNMENTS FOR CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS. I MEAN, I THINK THERE WAS A SECRETARY THERE WHO WAS BASICALLY TO COMPILE INFORMATION. SHE WAS OBVIOUSLY GIVEN AN ASSIGNMENT. THERE WERE SOME THINGS THAT WERE MENTIONED IN TERMS OF TASKS THAT SHOULD BE DONE, THAT'S TRUE. Q. OKAY. AND WERE YOU GIVEN TASKS? A. NOT SPECIFICALLY, THAT I REMEMBER. I MEAN, THERE MAY BE A FEW THINGS TO SORT OF FOLLOW UP ON, BUT NOTHING--- Q. DID YOU REVIEW DOCUMENTS? A. NOT REALLY REVIEWED DOCUMENTS, PER SE. I MEAN, THAT WAS REALLY -- THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A FEW DOCUMENTS THAT WERE PASSED AROUND HERE AND THERE, BUT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1383 THE REAL PURPOSE WAS REALLY TO OUTLINE A SET OF FRAMEWORK. Q. OKAY. BEFORE THAT, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD A MEETING? A. FOR THIS PURPOSE OR ANY MEETINGS WITH THEM? Q. WELL, ANY MEETINGS WITH THEM. A. MONDAY, TUESDAY AND WEDNESDAY, I WAS IN ANN ARBOR FOR A DEPOSITION, DR. KADLEC'S, I WAS WITH. Q. YOU SAT THROUGH THAT DEPOSITION? A. I SAT THROUGH THAT DEPOSITION--- Q. OKAY. A. ---NOT ALL -- NOT EVERY BIT OF IT, BUT A PORTION OF IT. Q. WAS YOUR WORK THERE JUST ASSISTING COUNSEL IN THE DEPOSITION; OR DID YOU DO ANY WORK PREPARING FOR YOUR OWN DEPOSITION? A. PRIMARILY JUST -- PRIMARILY JUST TO ASSIST. Q. DID YOU HEAR ANYTHING IN KADLEC'S DEPOSITION YOU DIDN'T AGREE WITH? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, THERE WERE SOME THINGS, YEAH. Q. WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND KADLEC HAS DONE? A. WHAT DO I UNDERSTAND HE'S DONE? Q. YEAH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1384 MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. A. MY UNDERSTANDING IS HE'S BEEN A CONSULTANT TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND PRIMARILY -- AND, PRIMARILY, HIS JOB HAS BEEN TO DESIGN STA'S. Q. DO YOU HAVE A DISAGREEMENT WITH THE BASIC DESIGN OF STA'S THAT HE'S PROPOSED? A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "BASIC DESIGN." Q. THE DESIGN THAT YOU JUST TOLD ME HE WAS DOING WITH STA'S. YOU SAID YOU UNDERSTOOD HE WAS DESIGNING STA'S, OR WAS INVOLVED IN THE DESIGNING OF STA'S, AND YOU SAT THROUGH HIS DEPOSITION; SO MY QUESTION IS, DO YOU HAVE ANY DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT HIS DESIGN? A. I THINK HE'S TAKEN AN ENGINEERING APPROACH THAT DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE -- TOTALLY HOW ECOSYSTEMS FUNCTION, AND IT'S A -- IT'S A MATHEMATICAL ONE-PARAMETER LUMPED MODEL THAT HAS UNCERTAINTIES THAT SURROUND IT, AND THOSE UNCERTAINTIES NEED TO BE CLARIFIED, I THINK. I HAVE SOME -- I HAVE SOME CONCERNS THAT SOMETHING IS BEING DESIGNED, BASICALLY, ON SUCH A SIMPLISTIC ENGINEERING CONCEPT, WITHOUT TESTING; AND SO I DISAGREE WITH DR. KADLEC ON THE TESTING PHASE OF THIS. AND I THINK HE SUPPORTS DR. WALKER'S TEN POINT TWO FIVE. I THINK HE'S NOT AWARE OF RECENT CHANGES IN THAT VENUE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1385 Q. THE CHANGES BASED UPON YOUR TWO NEW SAMPLES AND REMOVAL OF THE REDDY SAMPLE? A. CORRECT. Q. THOSE THE ONLY CHANGES THAT YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH? A. THAT HE'S FAMILIAR WITH? Q. NO, THAT YOU'RE -- THAT YOU'VE MADE REFERENCE TO. A. WELL, THOSE ARE THE FIRST ONES, YES. Q. ARE THERE OTHERS? A. THAT HAVE -- CHANGES? Q. YEAH. A. POSSIBLY. WE -- I HAVE NOT COMPLETED ALL ANALYSES YET. I'VE ONLY RECENTLY STARTED REALLY LOOKING AT THAT IN TERMS OF WHETHER THERE WOULD BE SOME OTHER WAYS TO LOOK AT, IF ONE USED THE SETTLING RATE CONCEPT, HOW ONE WOULD UTILIZE THAT SEDIMENT CORE DATA. Q. BUT YOU HAVE NO OPINIONS ABOUT THAT AT THIS POINT? A. WELL, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT I THINK THE MORE RECENT DATA WE TALKED ABOUT WOULD MAKE A MORE -- A BIT MORE ACCURATE; AND THE OPINIONS THAT A LONG-TERM AVERAGE NUMBER, WHICH THIS IS A TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE, GIVES YOU NO CONFIDENCE, OR VERY LITTLE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1386 CONFIDENCE FROM YEAR-TO-YEAR VARIATION. IT'S A -- ALSO, TRANSFERABILITY OF THAT INFORMATION FROM WCA-2A TO STA'S, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CONCERNS I HAVE REGARDING THAT. Q. WHAT CONCERNS DO YOU HAVE? A. I HAVE CONCERNS OVER RETENTION TIME; WATER DEPTH ASPECTS; DIFFERENT VEGETATION ZONES, WHICH ARE CRITICAL TO THE FUNCTIONING OF WCA-2A, WHICH ARE NOT PURPORTED TO BE -- WILL NOT BE IN THE STA'S AS DESIGNED. Q. YOU SAID DEPTH, YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT? A. DEPTH, WATER DEPTH--- Q. TELL ME--- A. ---CONTINUAL FLOW IN--- Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY WATER DEPTH? WHAT CONCERN DO YOU HAVE ABOUT WATER DEPTH IN TERMS OF THE TRANSFERABILITY? A. WCA-2A DRIES OUT AND ALSO HAS LOW WATER DEPTHS FOR CONSIDERABLE PERIODS OF THE YEAR. AND, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE STA'S ARE DESIGNED FOR SEVERAL FEET OF WATER AND CONTINUOUS FLOW. VEGETATION, EVEN WETLAND VEGETATION, DOES NOT LIKE CONTINUOUS FLOW. Q. YOU UNDERSTAND THE STA'S ARE GOING TO HAVE MORE WATER, AND IT WILL BE CONTINUOUSLY FLOWING? A. CORRECT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1387 Q. AND WCA-2A, THEREFORE, YOU BELIEVE CANNOT BE USED OR THE DATA DOES NOT TRANSFER? AND I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS, BUT THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS? A. THAT'S -- YEAH, THERE'S A WHOLE LIST OF REASONS. THAT'S JUST--- Q. THAT WOULD LEAD ME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE SETTLING RATE WOULD THEN BE LOWER WITH MORE WATER AND CONTINUOUS FLOW; IS THAT CORRECT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WHERE? WHAT? Q. IN THE SAME BODY OF WATER. IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT YOU CAN'T TRANSFER THE DATA BECAUSE THERE'S LESS WATER IN WCA-2A AND--- A. I DIDN'T SAY THERE WAS LESS WATER. I SAID--- Q. IT WAS DRIER. A. FOR SOME PERIODS. Q. OKAY. AND THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE CONTINUOUS FLOW; AND YOU UNDERSTOOD THE STA'S ARE GOING TO HAVE CONTINUOUS FLOW AND BE DRIER. SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU CAN'T -- I MEAN, WETTER; I'M SORRY. I'M GETTING MY JOHN DOE'S--- A. NOW YOU CONFUSE ME. Q. OKAY. WELL, I'M SORRY; I MISSPOKE. WE'RE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1388 TALKING ABOUT THE REASONS THAT WCA-2A DATA IS NOT TRANSFERABLE TO THE STA'S, WHICH WILL BE BUILT ON AGRICULTURAL LAND--- A. CORRECT. Q. ---THE FIRST REASON YOU'VE CITED IS THERE'S A DIFFERENCE IN DEPTH OF WATER. AND YOU SAID THAT IN WCA-2A, THAT IT DRIES OUT; AND YOU SAID IN THE STA'S, IT WAS NOT GOING TO DRY OUT AND THERE WAS GOING TO BE A CONTINUOUS FLOW. A. THAT'S WHAT I UNDERSTAND. Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT, THEREFORE, MEANS YOU CAN'T TRANSFER THE NUMBERS? A. I SAID THESE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WOULD CREATE SOME UNCERTAINTY IN MY MIND AS TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD LUMP -- COME UP WITH A TWENTY-SIX YEAR LUMPED AVERAGE FOR A SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN HIGHLY PULSED FOR THAT PERIOD OF TIME AND COME UP WITH A NUMBER THAT IS ACCURATELY PREDICTING WHAT THEY WILL DO. Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO DATA AT THIS POINT TO POINT TO, OR WHICH ESTABLISHES A CONCLUSION THAT THAT DEPTH DIFFERENCE IS REALLY GOING TO BE A DIFFERENCE; IT'S JUST ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'D LOOK AT? A. WE'RE STARTING TO LOOK -- WE HAVE SOME DATA THAT WE ARE STARTING TO LOOK AT. IT ISN'T ALL COMPLETE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1389 AT THIS MOMENT. WE'VE -- WE'VE LOOKED AT SOME FLOW DATA, AND WE HAVE SOME DEPTH DATA THAT WE'RE TRYING TO INTEGRATE WITH THAT TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE RETENTION TIMES. THAT DATA HASN'T BEEN COMPLETELY FINISHED YET. IT'S -- PIECES OF IT ARE DONE. I HAVEN'T -- IT ISN'T COMPLETED, SO I CAN'T TOTALLY DO THAT. Q. WELL, BUT, I'M NOT -- MY QUESTION IS, AT -- OKAY, STRIKE THAT. BY YOU CAN'T DO THAT, YOU MEAN YOU CAN'T AT THIS POINT TELL ME WHETHER DEPTH IS GOING TO, IN FACT, BE A PROBLEM, DIFFERENCE IN DEPTH? A. WELL, I CAN SAY FROM DR. KADLEC'S DEPOSITION AND LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DATA HE PRODUCED AND LOOKING AT THIS, THERE WERE SEVERAL GRAPHS IN THERE FROM CERTAIN SITES WHERE DEPTH APPEARED TO PLAY A SIGNIFICANT EFFECT ON DECAY RATE. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE SOMEBODY OUGHT TO LOOK AT THAT? A. I BELIEVE THAT OUGHT TO BE LOOKED AT. Q. OKAY. BY THE WAY, IN THIS WHOLE SERIES OF QUESTIONS, WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR ASSUMPTIONS, IF YOU WILL, ABOUT THE WAY THE STA'S ARE BEING DESIGNED AND ARE GOING TO BE MANAGED? A. I'VE HEARD SEVERAL PEOPLE DISCUSS THEM IN THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1390 BURNS-McDONNELL REPORT. I HAVE LOOKED AT PORTIONS OF THAT. THEY'RE--- Q. WHICH ONE? A. I KNEW YOU'D ASK ME WHICH ONE. THERE'S SO MANY OF THOSE. I THINK IT'S THE LAST -- SEPTEMBER, IS IT? YOU'LL PROBABLY TELL ME THERE'S ANOTHER VERSION, BUT I CAN'T--- Q. WELL, THE ONE -- IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY THERE WERE. I NEED TO KNOW WHICH ONE. WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR--- A. I THINK IT'S JUST -- THE ONE IN THE FALL, THE LAST ONE THAT I REMEMBER. Q. AND THAT'S THE BASIS, FOR INSTANCE, OF YOUR SAYING THERE'S GOING TO BE CONSTANT WATER AND THERE'S GOING TO BE CONSTANT FLOW? A. YEAH. THE LAST ONE I LOOKED AT, WHICH I BELIEVE WAS IN THE FALL, THAT'S WHAT IT SAID. Q. NOW, YOU MENTIONED VEGETATION. WHAT ABOUT THE VEGETATION SUGGESTS THAT THE DATA WOULD NOT BE TRANSFERABLE? A. WELL, THE WCA-2A HAS ALMOST THREE DISTINCT VEGETATION ZONES. IT HAS THE CATTAIL MONOCULTURE CLOSE TO THE HILLSBOROUGH CANAL SYSTEM, LET'S SAY, IN THE FIRST TWO KILOMETERS. AND THEN IT HAS A MIXED ZONE OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1391 CATTAIL, SAWGRASS AND FLOATING AQUATICS. AND THEN IT HAS MORE OF A SAWGRASS WITH SOME SLOUGH, THREE COMMUNITIES. AND THAT SYSTEM HAS ESSENTIALLY FUNCTIONED TO REMOVE AND STORE PHOSPHOROUS DIFFERENTLY THROUGH THOSE ZONES, AND THAT MAKES ECOLOGICAL SENSE SINCE CATTAIL ARE NOT A VERY EFFICIENT SPECIES FOR PHOSPHOROUS REMOVAL. AND HAVING FLOWN OVER THE ENR PROJECT AND HAVING SEEN WHAT'S PROPOSED FOR THE STA'S AND KNOWING THAT THEY'RE BEING BUILT ON AGRICULTURAL SOILS THAT ARE FAIRLY HEAVILY LADEN WITH PHOSPHOROUS, I'M QUITE SURE THAT THE AREAS ARE GOING TO BE CATTAIL MARSHES. PEOPLE HAVE OPINED TO THAT SAME OPINION, INCLUDING DR. KADLEC. AND, IF THAT IS THE CASE, THEN YOU WILL HAVE A SPECIES THAT IS NOT VERY EFFICIENT AT PHOSPHOROUS REMOVAL AS YOUR DOMINANT MACROPHYTE IN THE SYSTEM. SO, THE VEGETATION ZONE, WHERE DR. GHERINI GOT THE REAL LOW NUMBER, AND DR. MARIN AND I HAVE GOTTEN ACTUALLY A LOWER, EVEN, SEDIMENT NUMBER, I BELIEVE -- NOT A LOWER ONE, BUT A LOWER NUMBER -- A LOW NUMBER, LOWER THAN, LET'S SAY--- Q. YOU MEAN A LOWER SETTLING RATE? A. LOWER SETTLING RATE THAN SORT OF THE MEAN. PLUS WHAT I KNOW ABOUT CATTAIL AND MY DISCUSSIONS WITH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1392 SOME OTHER SCIENTISTS, ALL INDICATE TO ME THAT THIS SYSTEM WILL NOT -- IF IT'S CATTAIL, WILL NOT FUNCTION TO A LEVEL THAT PEOPLE THINK IT WILL. Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER FACTORS SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THE DATA WOULD NOT BE TRANSFERABLE? YOU'VE MENTIONED WATER DEPTH AND FLOW AND VEGETATION. A. THERE IS SOME QUESTION AS TO HOW WCA-2A HAS WORKED. WE HAVE SOME DATA TO LOOK AT UPWELLING OF WATER IN CALCIUM IN WCA-2A, THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE TESTED TO SEE IF THE STA'S ARE GOING TO FUNCTION THIS WAY. IT MAY BE THAT PRECIPITATION OF PHOSPHOROUS IN WCA-2A IS RELATED TO THE CALCIUM UPWELLING THAT TAKES PLACE IN THAT SYSTEM. WE'VE DETERMINED SOME FLUXES. IT MAY BE THAT WCA-2A'S HYDROLOGY AND FLOW, WE KNOW FROM FOUR OR FIVE YEARS OF FIELD EXPERIENCE, THAT IT DOESN'T FLOW DIRECTLY NORTH-SOUTH; THAT IF YOU -- THERE ARE PERIODS OF TIME IN WHICH IT DOES SO, BUT THERE ARE VAST PERIODS OF TIME IN WHICH THE WATER SITS STILL. IT'S ALMOST DEAD IN TERMS OF MOVEMENT. AND, ALSO, THE WATER UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS FLOWS EAST AND CREATES ALMOST A LOOP AROUND, SO THAT THERE'S A -- THERE'S NOT A DIRECT NORTH-SOUTH FLOW WHICH WOULD CREATE EAST-TO-WEST VARIABILITY IN THERE. SO, IT MAY BE THAT SOME OF OUR ESTIMATES BASED ON THAT WOULD HAVE TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1393 BE LOOKED AT. IN OTHER WORDS, IT PUTS SOME -- SOME QUESTIONS ON THE HYDROLOGIC MOVEMENT OF MATERIALS. Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN WATER THERE FLOWING FROM WEST TO EAST IN THE EVERGLADES? A. YES. Q. WHERE? A. IN THE FEEDER CANAL THAT GOES FROM -- LET'S SAY THE 10-D STRUCTURE, WHICH IS BLOCKED OFF AT THE END. INSTEAD OF GOING -- THERE'S A BERM THERE. INSTEAD OF GOING STRAIGHT SOUTH, IT BASICALLY MOVES DOWN TOWARDS THE `A' STRUCTURE AROUND THE CORNER, THEN BACK AT ABOUT A FORTY-FIVE DEGREE ANGLE. Q. NOW, GOING BACK TO THIS LAST REASON, OR THIS MOST RECENT PHENOMENA THAT YOU SAY MAY NOT -- MAY INHIBIT TRANSFERABILITY, YOU SAID CALCIUM UPWELLING IN WCA-2A MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE STORAGE THAT'S GOING ON THERE; IS THAT CORRECT? A. CORRECT. Q. WHAT IS CALCIUM UPWELLING? A. WE'VE DONE SOME RECENT STUDIES FROM THE BEDROCK TO LOOK AT THE FLUX OF MATERIALS -- PHOSPHOROUS, CALCIUM, LOTS OF MATERIALS -- AND WE HAVE FOUND THAT THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE OF IONS MOVING VERTICALLY, WHICH WAS HERETOFORE NOT EVEN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1394 POSTULATED AS BEING POSSIBLE, COMING UP FROM BEDROCK WITH SOME NEW TECHNIQUES; AND WE ARE NOW LOOKING AT THE POSSIBILITY THAT THIS IS CONTRIBUTING TO SOME OF THE PRECIPITATION OF PHOSPHOROUS OUT OF THE WATER COLUMN. NOW, IF THIS IS A PROCESS OF SOME SIGNIFICANCE -- AND I'M NOT SAYING IT IS AT THE MOMENT; I'M SAYING WE NEED TO LOOK AT IT -- THEN THIS COULD CREATE SOME QUESTIONS AS TO WHETHER THE STA'S WOULD HAVE THIS MECHANISM OR NOT. THEY MIGHT, THEY MIGHT NOT. Q. WHAT ABOUT THE STA'S DO YOU KNOW THAT SUGGESTS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER? A. I HAVE NOT LOOKED AT THE STA'S TO DETERMINE THAT. I DO KNOW FROM THE KNIGHT'S FARM ANALYSIS I DID, AND SOME DISCUSSIONS I HAD WITH SOME PEOPLE, THEY SAID THAT KNIGHT'S FARM HAD DIFFICULTY HOLDING WATER; AND, SO, WATER WAS ACTUALLY LEAKING OUT OF THAT SYSTEM. SO, JUST THAT STATEMENT WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT -- AND IT DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE THE HEAD. THE LOXAHATCHEE TO THE NORTH OF 2A HAS A FAIRLY HIGH HEAD, FOUR OR FIVE FEET OF WATER AT TIMES, SOMETIMES MORE, THAT ALLOWS WATER, THEN, TO BASICALLY COME THROUGH AND UNDER THAT DIKE AND CREATES, I THINK, PART OF THAT HYDROSTATIC HEAD, WHICH ACCOUNTS FOR, I THINK, SOME INPUT OF WATER TO THAT SYSTEM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1395 WHETHER THE STA'S WOULD HAVE THAT, YOU'D HAVE TO LOOK AT WHERE THEY ARE, WHERE THEY'RE LOCATED. NOW THEY'RE SITTING IN FARMLAND AND, SO, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE SUBSURFACE FLOW IS. Q. OKAY. A. ALSO, THE SOILS ARE DIFFERENT IN STA'S. THEY HAVE FARM SOILS, OXIDIZED SOILS. Q. TELL ME WHY THAT WOULD INHIBIT TRANSFERABILITY. A. WELL, AT LEAST FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, THERE COULD BE A CONSIDERABLE RELEASE OF PHOSPHOROUS FROM THOSE SOILS. I THINK I SAW SOME NUMBERS THE OTHER DAY, WAS TALKING TO SOMEONE THAT SOME OF THE -- I THINK IT WAS EVEN DR. REDDY'S REPORTS, THAT PHOSPHOROUS IN THE WATER COLUMN, YOU KNOW, CAN BE, YOU KNOW, SEVENTY-FIVE OR A HUNDRED PARTS PER BILLION WITH NOTHING GOING IN, JUST COMING OUT OF THE SOILS BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF FERTILIZER THAT WAS ADDED TO THOSE SOILS. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THIS OXIDATION WOULD OCCUR WHEN THE SOILS ARE COMPLETELY SUBMERGED? A. I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT. Q. NO, I'M ASKING YOU IF YOU BELIEVE THAT. A. OXIDATION WOULD OCCUR? Q. YEAH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1396 A. NO. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE SOILS THAT HAVE PHOSPHOROUS IN THEM FROM THE FARMING ERA? A. YES, I BELIEVE THAT. Q. AND ONCE YOU COVER THE SOIL WITH WATER, YOU BELIEVE THAT SOME OF THAT PHOSPHOROUS IN THE SOIL MIGHT BE RELEASED? A. OUR DATA FROM WCA-2A WOULD INDICATE THAT'S THE CASE, AND THE REDDY AND KOCH DATA SUGGESTS VERY STRONGLY THAT, IN FACT, ONCE THE SOILS ARE FLOODED, IT WOULD GO INTO ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS WHICH WOULD RESULT IN RELEASE OF PHOSPHOROUS FROM THOSE FARMLANDS. Q. AND THE RESULT OF THAT WOULD BE THAT YOU WOULD NOT -- YOU WOULD HAVE MORE PHOSPHOROUS TO TREAT THAN YOU THINK YOU WOULD? A. YOU WOULD HAVE MORE PHOSPHOROUS; AND, ALSO, THE NEW WATER YOU ADDED, IF IT WAS LESS IN CONCENTRATION, YOU'D HAVE A GRADIENT GOING THE WRONG WAY, SO THAT, ESSENTIALLY, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE UPTAKE FROM THAT WATER COLUMN. Q. SAY THAT AGAIN. A. IF YOU PUT IN PHOSPHOROUS OF A LOWER CONCENTRATION THAN WHAT YOU HAD IN THE WATER COLUMN TO START WITH, YOU WOULD NOT BE GETTING TREATMENT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1397 Q. NO, WAIT. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU JUST SAID. A. IF YOU HAVE AN UPWELLING AND DIFFUSION FROM THE SOIL--- Q. OKAY. AND WE'RE ASSUMING WE HAVE AN STA? A. RIGHT. Q. AND WE'RE ASSUMING THAT IT HAS WATER, IT'S NOW COVERED IN WATER, AND THEN WE'RE ASSUMING AGRICULTURE RUNOFF COMES INTO THAT--- A. CORRECT. Q. ---STA, WHICH HAS SOME CONCENTRATION OF PHOSPHOROUS. A. LET'S SAY A HUNDRED. Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT HAPPENS? A. FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, THE DATA WOULD INDICATE THAT, IN FACT, THE SOIL WHICH HAS MORE PHOSPHOROUS CONCENTRATION IN THE PORE WATER THAN THE SURFACE WATER COMING IN, THE HIGHER CONCENTRATION -- IT GOES FROM HIGHEST CONCENTRATION TO LOWER, PHOSPHOROUS WOULD CONTINUE TO LEAVE THE SOIL COLUMN AND GO INTO THE WATER. Q. AND WHY ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT THE WATER WITH THIS PHOSPHOROUS THAT'S BEING RELEASED WOULD BE AT A HIGHER CONCENTRATION THAN THE WATER COMING IN? WHAT DO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1398 YOU BASE THAT ON? A. WELL, BECAUSE THE PORE WATER IN MOST OF THESE PREVIOUSLY-ENRICHED AREAS IS MUCH HIGHER THAN THE SURFACE WATER CONCENTRATION. Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANY OF THE WCA'S HAVE OXIDIZED SOILS, SPECIFICALLY 2A? A. AT SOME YEARS, THEY WOULD HAVE SOME OXIDIZED SOILS; IN SOME PERIODS OF TIME, THEY WOULD HAVE SOME OXIDIZED UPPER LAYERS, A SMALL PORTION OF IT -- NOTHING TO THE DEGREE OF THE EAA. Q. NOW, THIS POSSIBILITY OF RELEASE OF PHOSPHOROUS FROM THE OXIDIZED SOILS, IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU DOCUMENTED OR IS THIS JUST SOMETHING YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. IT'S MATERIALS THAT I'VE READ; I'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH PEOPLE LIKE DR. REDDY; I'VE LOOKED AT SOME OF THE DATA; I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE REPORTS. I MEAN, THIS IS FAIRLY WELL-KNOWN. THIS HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR A LONG TIME FOR LOTS OF SYSTEMS. Q. DOES DR. KADLEC KNOW THIS, FOR INSTANCE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. I'M NOT SURE. HE MAY, HE MAY NOT. Q. WAS IT DISCUSSED IN HIS DEPOSITION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1399 A. OXIDATION OF SOILS? Q. THIS PARTICULAR REASON THAT YOU CITE FOR -- THAT WOULD INHIBIT TRANSFERABILITY. A. I THINK HE WAS ASKED WHETHER SOILS WOULD MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE--- Q. AND WHAT DID HE SAY? A. HE DIDN'T THINK SO. Q. OKAY. AND YOU THINK THEY WOULD, OR MIGHT? A. I THINK THEY WOULD. Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER REASONS DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE -- YOU CAN'T TRANSFER WCA-2A DATA TO THE STA'S? A. WELL, THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT BMP'S FROM THE FARMLAND WOULD CHANGE THE FORM OF PHOSPHOROUS GOING INTO THE STA'S. Q. HOW WOULD THAT HAPPEN? A. BMP'S REMOVE -- USUALLY THEY REMOVE THE MOST -- THE EASIEST FORM OF PHOSPHOROUS TO REMOVE. Q. WHICH IS? A. PARTICULATE PHOSPHOROUS, LEAVING YOU WITH DISSOLVED PHOSPHOROUS FORMS. AND IT'S MY OPINION THAT SOME OF THESE FORMS ARE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO REMOVE, LIKE DISSOLVED ORGANIC PHOSPHOROUS, AND IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO REMOVE FROM THIS, YOU KNOW, WETLANDS. SO, THAT IF YOU TOOK OUT THE EASIEST FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1400 TO REMOVE, YOU WOULD BE LEFT WITH THE MORE DIFFICULT FORMS -- SOME MORE DIFFICULT FORMS TO REMOVE AND SO, THEREFORE, THAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT IN TERMS OF TRANSFERABILITY. Q. WELL, WHY WOULDN'T THAT BE -- IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE STA'S AND YOU HAD BMP'S, YOU'D HAVE A SITUATION IN 2A, WOULDN'T YOU? YOU ALREADY HAVE THAT SITUATION IN 2A, AS WE SPEAK, DON'T YOU? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WHY IS THAT? Q. BECAUSE THERE ARE BMP'S, IN EFFECT, ON THE FARMS, AND WATER IS FLOWING FROM BMP'S INTO 2A; AND I ASSUME THAT WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED MUST BE HAPPENING PRESENTLY. A. WELL, I'M NOT CLEAR AS TO HOW MUCH BMP'S HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED, IN WHAT DEGREE AND SO FORTH, AT THIS STAGE. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT BMP'S WILL BE INCREASED UP TO SOME FORTY, FIFTY PERCENT AND THAT ALL SORTS OF -- I'M JUST -- YOU ASKED FOR THE LIST. I'M JUST TELLING YOU THE POSSIBILITY IS -- I THINK WE ALL WANT THESE THINGS TO WORK, AND WE WANT THESE TO WORK RIGHT, AND I'M JUST GIVING YOU MY SCIENTIFIC OPINION AS TO WHAT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS COULD BE, AND THAT'S ONE OF THEM, IS IF YOU TAKE OUT SOME EASIER FORMS -- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1401 AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT BMP'S ARE GOING TO BE PUT WHERE. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING AT THE MOMENT THAT THEY'RE NOT -- THERE ARE SOME BMP'S, BUT I'M NOT -- I CAN'T ATTEST TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE HILLSBOROUGH CANAL RIGHT NOW. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THERE WILL BE MORE BMP'S; AND IF I WERE A FARMER AND ASKED TO REMOVE FIFTY PERCENT OF SOMETHING, I WOULD SURELY WANT TO TAKE OUT THE EASIEST FORM FIRST. Q. WELL, DO YOU KNOW -- WHAT'S THE BASIS FOR SAYING THAT THE FARMERS IN THE EAA WILL BE TAKING OUT THE EASIEST FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS? A. WELL, MY DISCUSSIONS WITH MOST GROUPS WHO TRY TO REDUCE NUTRIENTS -- AND THAT'S NOT JUST FARMERS, ANY GROUP -- THEY BASICALLY LOOK AT WHAT THE FORMS ARE AND USUALLY TALK TO THE GOOD AQUATIC CHEMISTS AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT NOT ONLY WHAT MAKES SENSE BUT ALSO WHAT IS ECONOMICAL. AND, USUALLY, IT ENDS UP THAT ONE OR TWO OF THESE FORMS CAN BE TAKEN OUT WITH SOME PRECIPITATION, CHEMICAL TREATMENT, FILTRATION, SETTLING -- SOMETHING -- AND USUALLY THOSE -- THE BIGGEST -- IT'S A VERY SIMPLE PRINCIPLE -- THE BIGGEST MOLECULES SETTLE OUT THE QUICKEST AND THE EASIEST AND COST YOU THE LEAST; AND, SO, THAT'S WHAT MOST PEOPLE DO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1402 Q. AND SO THAT'S REALLY JUST BASED ON AN ASSUMPTION THAT YOU HAVE FROM OTHER PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE TALKED TO. IT'S NOT BASED ON KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THE BMP'S THAT ARE BEING UTILIZED IN THE EAA? A. WELL, I READ A NUMBER OF THE DOCUMENTS AND I SAT IN A NUMBER OF THE MEETINGS -- A FEW OF THE MEETINGS--- Q. WELL, TELL ME WHAT BMP'S ARE BEING UTILIZED, AND DESCRIBE FOR ME HOW THAT SUPPORTS YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THEY ARE REMOVING THE EASIEST FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS. A. WELL, AS I SAID, I DIDN'T KNOW WHICH BMP'S ARE BEING USED -- AND ALL THE RAMIFICATIONS OF WHAT WOULD BE USED IN THE FUTURE. I DO KNOW THAT FARMERS HAVE BEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, HOLDING WATER IN SOME AREAS AND LETTING IT SETTLE, TRYING TO USE RETENTION PONDS CLOSER TO THE MILLS. THESE ARE THINGS THAT -- THESE ARE THE EASIEST -- PUTTING IN SOME FILTRATION SYSTEMS THAT WILL REMOVE VARIOUS -- TEST PLOTS THAT WOULD TRY TO REMOVE PHOSPHOROUS. I'VE ACTUALLY TOURED -- ON THE CONGRESSIONAL TOUR, WE STOPPED AT SEVERAL PLACES AND LOOKED AT SOME PILOT SITES WHERE PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO REMOVE PHOSPHOROUS, SOME VERY SUCCESSFULLY. Q. AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BMP'S ARE IN PLACE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1403 AND ARE WORKING TODAY? A. I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE REDUCTIONS. I DON'T -- I HAVE NOT QUANTIFIED NOR SEEN THE BMP'S. Q. BUT I GUESS I'M HAVING TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING -- I CAN UNDERSTAND IF YOU WERE SAYING THAT BECAUSE OF THIS PHENOMENA OF THE BMP'S REMOVING THE EASIEST PHOSPHOROUS AND SO FORTH; THAT MIGHT BE AN ARGUMENT FOR NOT USING THE STA'S OR SOMETHING, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO RELATE TO THE TRANSFERABILITY ISSUE. CAN YOU HELP ME THERE? WELL, WHY DOES THAT MAKE IT -- THE DATA NOT TRANSFERABLE AS OPPOSED TO JUST SAYING MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T USE BMP'S BECAUSE IT'S TOO HARD TO REMOVE--- A. WELL, MAYBE IT'S RELATED AS MUCH TO SIZING ISSUE; IF, IN FACT, YOU HAVE MORE DIFFICULT FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS TO REMOVE, IT MAY AFFECT THE SETTLING RATE, AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT DIFFERENT FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS PROBABLY -- OUT OF THE WATER COLUMN -- HAVE A DIFFERENT SETTLING RATE. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT KIND OF PHOSPHOROUS THAT WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT SETTLING RATE? A. WELL, I REMEMBER, IN FACT, IN ONE OF DR. KADLEC'S DEPOSITIONS, HE ACTUALLY -- FIRST DEPOSITION -- HE ACTUALLY CALCULATED THAT FOR ONE OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1404 THE FLORIDA SYSTEMS AND ACTUALLY SHOWED THAT SETTLING RATES VARIED, I THINK -- THIS IS FROM MEMORY -- I THINK AS LOW AS FOUR AND AS HIGH AS NINE OR TEN; AND IT WAS CERTAIN FORMS LIKE THE ORGANIC FORMS THAT HAD THE HIGHER SETTLING RATE, AND THE MORE RECALCITRANT FORMS WERE DOWN IN THE LOWER END, SO. Q. IN THE EVERGLADES? HE WAS DOING CALCULATIONS OF THE FLORIDA EVERGLADES? A. I BELIEVE IT WAS EITHER BONEY MARSH OR IRON BRIDGE. Q. AND YOU UNDERSTAND THAT HE FOUND DIFFERENT SETTLING RATES BASED -- AS A FUNCTION OF THE KIND OF PHOSPHOROUS IT WAS ATTEMPTING -- THE FORM OF THE PHOSPHOROUS THAT THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO REMOVE? A. THAT'S WHAT HIS DATA SHOWED. I HAVE SINCE TALKED TO SOME OTHER ENGINEERS AND PEOPLE, AND THEY -- THEY SAID THAT MAKES PERFECT SENSE; IT SHOULD--- Q. IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT RECALCITRANT FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS WOULD BE ORGANIC FORMS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. NOT ENTIRELY. THE DISSOLVED ORGANIC CAN BE UTILIZED. IT'S IN A FORM THAT'S NOT IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE, BUT THERE ARE SOME OF THOSE THAT CAN BE UTILIZED WITH CERTAIN PHOSPHATASES; OTHERWISE, SOME OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1405 THESE ORGANISMS WOULDN'T EXIST. Q. JUST AS AN ASIDE, IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEASURING PHOSPHOROUS -- TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS AND ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS? A. YES. Q. AND WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? A. WELL, ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS IS PRIMARILY WHAT'S -- THERE'S VARIOUS WAYS, BUT THE ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS IS USUALLY WHAT'S FILTERED THROUGH A POINT FOUR FIVE MICRON FILTER AND MEASURED UNDIGESTED. IT IS CONSIDERED AS SORT OF A RELATIVELY AVAILABLE PHOSPHOROUS FOR--- Q. THAT'S ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS? A. THAT'S ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS. AND THE TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS IS YOU TAKE THE SAMPLE WITHOUT FILTERING IT AND DIGEST IT IN AN ACID DIGEST, AND, THEREFORE, IT BASICALLY PUTS ALL THE PHOSPHOROUS THAT BOUND ORGANICALLY ON MINERAL FRACTIONS INTO AN ORGANIC -- INTO A SOLUTION AND THEN ANALYZE THAT COMPONENT; AND THAT WAY, YOU HAVE MADE ALL THE UNAVAILABLE PHOSPHOROUS AND THE ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS AVAILABLE FOR THE COLOR REACTION. Q. AND IN THE SAMPLING WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE, HAVE YOU BEEN PULLING OUT TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS OR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1406 ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS? A. WE HAVE BEEN PULLING OUT MANY FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS. Q. WHICH WOULD INCLUDE ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS AS WELL AS TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS? A. ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS, TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS, DISSOLVED ORGANIC PHOSPHOROUS. Q. AND DO YOU HAVE A VIEW AS TO FROM A REGULATORY POINT OF VIEW IF TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS IS AN APPROPRIATE CLASSIFICATION? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. AS AN APPROPRIATE CLASSIFICATION? Q. YEAH. IS IT APPROPRIATE FROM A REGULATORY POINT OF VIEW TO USE TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS AS YOUR REGULATORY LEVEL? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, I'M NOT A REGULATOR, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE AS MUCH ECOLOGICAL SENSE TO ME AS WHAT'S MORE AVAILABLE. Q. SO, YOU BELIEVE ECOLOGICALLY THE STANDARD, IF -- IF ECOLOGISTS WERE SETTING THE STANDARDS, THEY WOULD BE BASED ON ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS? A. PROBABLY -- I'D PROBABLY USE BOTH. MOST DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1407 REGULATORS TRY TO USE SOMETHING THAT'S SIMPLE AND STANDARD. AND THEY CAN DO IT, BUT--- Q. YOU'D HAVE A DUAL LEVEL STANDARD? A. I'D LOOK AT BOTH. I THINK THE PROBLEM QUITE OFTEN WITH SETTING STANDARDS IS THAT THEY'RE EASY TO SET; THEY'RE DIFFICULT TO INTERPRET, UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY MEAN ECOLOGICALLY. STANDARDS -- I THINK THE THING WITH STANDARDS, MOST ECOLOGISTS WOULD SAY IS THEY'RE A REGULATORY MECHANISM BUT THEY DON'T HAVE, QUITE OFTEN, ANY ECOLOGICAL MEANING. SO, THEY HAVE -- THAT DOESN'T MEAN ALL OF THEM, BUT I MEAN SOME OF THEM DON'T. THEY'RE USUALLY PUT THERE FOR VARIOUS REASONS, SOMETIMES HEALTH REASONS, SOMETIMES THIS REASON, AND SO ON--- Q. WELL, DO YOU THINK A STANDARD, A LIMIT OF FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION AT A CERTAIN POINT, WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE WAY -- STRIKE THAT; I DON'T WANT TO USE A NUMBER. "X" PARTS PER BILLION AT A CERTAIN POINT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF PHOSPHOROUS THAT GOES IN THE EVERGLADE SYSTEM? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. DO I THINK -- GIVE ME THAT AGAIN. "X"--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1408 Q. "X" PARTS PER BILLION. A. OF WHAT? Q. OF WATER CONCENTRATION. A. OF WHAT, THOUGH? Q. IN THE WATER. A. BUT ORTHO, TOTAL, WHAT--- Q. TOTAL; I'M SORRY. I'M SORRY. TOTAL. A. DO I THINK "X" AMOUNT OF TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS--- Q. "X" PARTS PER BILLION TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE FORM FOR REGULATION IN THE EVERGLADES CONTEXT. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. THE REASON I'M HESITATING HERE, THE REAL PROBLEM IS WHETHER IT'S STRICTLY CONCENTRATION OR LOAD, AND THERE ARE -- THERE ARE POSSIBLE SCENARIOS WHERE YOU, AS YOU KNOW, IS THE MASS LOAD -- YOU CAN GET THE SAME MASS LOAD WITH LOW CONCENTRATIONS AND HIGH VOLUMES, OR HIGH VOLUMES AND LOW CONCENTRATIONS; AND, SO, THERE -- YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT, IN FACT, YOU'RE NOT SIMPLY SETTING UP A SYSTEM HERE THAT DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE TWO POSSIBILITIES. Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK ABOUT -- I WANT TO GET YOUR VIEWS ON BOTH. FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A STANDARD IN THE EVERGLADES CONTEXT SHOULD BE BASED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1409 UPON LOAD REQUIREMENTS OR CONCENTRATION REQUIREMENTS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, AS I THINK I JUST SAID, I THINK TO BE SAFE, I THINK YOU MIGHT WANT TO DO BOTH. Q. WELL, NO, YOU SAID BOTH AS TO ORTHO AND TOTAL, BUT YOU--- A. I WOULD THINK THAT YOU--- Q. ---YOU'D WANT A STANDARD THAT CALLED OUT BOTH? A. I WOULD THINK, IN MY OPINION, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE STRUCTURAL SYSTEMS AS THEY ARE NOW SET FORTH, CREATES A WHOLE SERIES OF POINT SOURCES IN THE EVERGLADES, AND IN MY PROFESSIONAL OPINION, THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR PROBLEMS, OTHER THAN THE HYDROLOGY AND THE UP AND DOWN AND ALL THAT, WHEN IT COMES TO THE NUTRIENT PROBLEM IS WE HAVE FORCED THE NUTRIENTS THROUGH VERY, VERY, VERY NARROW CHANNELS AND HAVE CONCENTRATED THIS AND, SO, LOADS PER UNIT AREA, EVEN SOMETIMES WHEN THERE ARE LOW CONCENTRATIONS, CAN BE SURPRISING. NOW, THEN, YOU HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT FORMS ARE GOING THERE TO SEE IF THAT -- THOSE ARE READILY AVAILABLE AND WHAT -- SO ON AND SO FORTH. Q. WELL, IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THE BULK OF THE TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS IN THE EVERGLADES CONTEXT WOULD BE ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1410 A. NO--- Q. IT'S NOT? A. ---NO. Q. WOULD YOU SAY LESS THAN FIFTY PERCENT? A. IT VARIES SEASONALLY. WE -- IF I HAD MY ANNUAL REPORT, I COULD LOOK AT IT. WE FRACTIONATED OUT SOME -- YOU SAID LESS THAN FIFTY PERCENT? Q. NO, I'M ASKING WOULD YOU SAY LESS THAN FIFTY PERCENT? A. IS? Q. ORTHO. A. I HAVE TO REMEMBER THE NUMBERS BECAUSE, AS I SAY, IT DOES VARY. NO, IN SOME CASES, YOU CAN HAVE MORE. Q. WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IS, IS THERE AN AVERAGE OR IS THERE -- CAN YOU MAKE A GENERALIZATION ABOUT THE EVERGLADES WITH REGARD TO THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ORTHOPHOSPHOROUS AND TOTAL PHOSPHOROUS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. AS SORT OF AN ESTIMATE, I GUESS -- YOU KNOW, I CAN'T -- AS I SAID, I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK BACK AT OUR DATA. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT FRACTION, BUT MAYBE I'D SAY IT'S HALF OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. YOU BELIEVE HALF? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1411 A. WELL, YOU KNOW, ROUGHLY. IT COULD SOMETIMES BE SIXTY, SOMETIMES BE FORTY. I'M NOT SURE. IT DEPENDS. AGAIN, AS I SAY, IT'S A SEASONAL THING. Q. NOW, GOING BACK, YOU SAID THAT ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT YOU'VE CREATED A SERIES OR SOMEONE HAS CREATED A SERIES OF POINT SOURCE FLOWS OF WATER PUTTING PHOSPHOROUS INTO THE SYSTEM; IS THAT RIGHT? A. AND OTHER THINGS, MANY OTHER. Q. WELL, I MEAN THAT -- YOU MENTIONED THAT JUST A MINUTE AGO; AND WOULD THAT BE THE STRUCTURES THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. RIGHT. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE -- A MINUTE AGO, YOU TALKED ABOUT IMPACTED AREAS. A. I DID? Q. YEAH; YOU TALKED ABOUT AREAS BEING IMPACTED. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE IMPACTED AREAS IN WCA-2A IS BECAUSE OF FORCING THE WATER THROUGH THESE SMALL CHANNELS? IS THAT THE PRINCIPAL REASON, IN YOUR MIND? A. FORCING THE WATER THROUGH THESE SMALL CHANNELS? Q. YEAH, CREATING THESE POINT SOURCES THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT. A. WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE -- THAT'S ONE OF THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1412 REASONS. BLOCKING OFF FLOW AT THE OTHER END, RAISING THE WATER LEVELS, PULSING THE WATER THROUGH. PULSING IS VERY UNNATURAL. WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE GATES ARE CLOSED EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE TIME, A LONG-TERM AVERAGE, THAT'S AN AMAZING PERCENTAGE OF TIME TO HAVE IT CLOSED AND THEN HAVE THESE GATES ALL OF A SUDDEN OPEN UP AND HAVE WATER COME PULSING THROUGH THE SYSTEM AND THEN SHUT. IT WOULD BE SO ATYPICAL COMPARED TO THE NORMAL EVERGLADES, I CAN'T THINK IT--- Q. GOING BACK TO THAT LIST, ANY OTHER REASONS THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT DATA FROM 2A WOULD NOT BE TRANSFERRABLE TO STA'S BUILT ON AGRICULTURAL LAND, FORMER AGRICULTURAL LAND? AND, JUST TO REFRESH, YOU'VE SAID THE DEPTH, THE VEGETATION, THE CALCIUM UPWELLING AND THE DIFFERENCE IN SOILS, AND THAT -- THE CHANGES IN THE FORM OF PHOSPHOROUS FROM THE BMP'S -- AS A RESULT OF THE BMP'S. ANY OTHER REASONS? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. LET ME SEE. WELL, AS I SAID BEFORE, I SAID IN TERMS OF TRANSFERABILITY -- WHAT THESE CREATE FOR ME IS UNCERTAINTY RELATED TO WHAT THE ACTUAL EFFECTIVENESS OF THESE AREAS WOULD BE. LET ME THINK IF THERE -- I'M SURE THERE -- WELL, LET'S SEE. I SAY I'M NOT SURE. THERE MIGHT BE SOME -- LET'S SEE. I THINK I DID DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1413 MENTION, THOUGH, REITERATED THAT THE CONCEPT OF USING A LONG-TERM TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE NUMBER COULD CREATE SOME DIFFICULTIES. YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THAT THIS AVERAGE THAT YOU COME UP WITH IS GOING TO BE REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT -- IF YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT YEAR-TO-YEAR VARIATION WITHIN THE SYSTEM, THEN THERE'S SOME CONCERN THERE. Q. TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THIS TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE; AVERAGE OF WHAT? A. THAT SETTLING RATE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WHAT DR. KADLEC TALKS ABOUT, IS NOT -- DOES NOT PREDICT THE SETTLING AT ANY PARTICULAR YEAR. IT IS A LONG-TERM SETTLING AVERAGE. Q. MEANING WHAT? A. MEANING THAT OVER THAT TWENTY-SIX YEARS THAT THEY CALCULATED THAT RATE, ON AVERAGE, THAT'S WHAT THAT SYSTEM WORKED LIKE. THERE COULD BE YEARS-TO-YEARS OF VARIATION THAT COULD BE CONSIDERABLY DIFFERENT. SO, THAT, IN FACT, IF YOU HAD A PARTICULAR YEAR THAT YOU WANTED TO SAY, "IS THAT GOING TO WORK FOR THIS PARTICULAR YEAR" OR FROM YEAR TO YEAR, YOU MAY HAVE -- I UNDERSTAND DR. KADLEC'S ANALYSIS, IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT -- IT COULD BE QUITE DIFFERENT. Q. WELL, HOW WOULD YOU DO IT IF YOU DIDN'T TAKE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1414 THE TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE? I MEAN, YOU CERTAINLY WOULDN'T WANT TO PICK ONE OF THE TOP YEARS OR ONE OF THE BOTTOM YEARS AND SAY "WE'RE GOING TO USE THAT," WOULD YOU? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. NO. I DIDN'T -- NOR DID I SUGGEST THAT. I'M SIMPLY SAYING--- Q. WHY WOULDN'T YOU USE AN AVERAGE? WHY ISN'T THAT A REASONABLE THING TO USE? A. I'M SIMPLY SAYING THAT THAT AVERAGE NUMBER, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WILL GIVE YOU SORT OF AN AVERAGE ESTIMATE OF WHAT THAT SYSTEM WILL BE. THAT MEANS IF YOU DON'T CARE WHETHER IT COMES OUT ONE YEAR OR ANOTHER AND YOU CAN LIVE WITH THAT, EXCESS RAINFALL OR MATERIALS COMING IN -- IT'S ALSO BASED ON, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, ON SORT OF RAINFALL PATTERNS OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS; AND WE'VE HAD EXTREMELY DRY CONDITIONS AND NOT NORMAL RAINFALL, SO I'M CONCERNED THAT MAYBE THE RAINFALL -- IF YOU HAD -- THIS LAST YEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAD -- I UNDERSTAND ALMOST A MILLION ACRE FEET OF WATER HAD TO BE MOVED SOUTH, ADDITIONAL WATER. IF YOU HAD TO ADD ADDITIONAL WATER TO THE STA'S, I WOULD HAVE SOME CONCERN. Q. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LAST THING YOU SAID. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1415 WHAT DO YOU MEAN, "IF YOU HAD TO ADD ADDITIONAL WATER TO THE STA'S, I WOULD HAVE SOME CONCERN"? A. YOU ARE INCREASING THE LOAD TO -- IN OTHER WORDS, THE VOLUME OF WATER TO THE PHOSPHOROUS CONCENTRATION--- Q. OH--- A. ---INCREASE THE LOAD TO THE SYSTEM BEYOND WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR IF THE RAINFALL, UTILIZING THE MODELING DESIGN, IS NOT TYPICAL OF, LET'S SAY, EXTREMELY WET YEARS. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING -- MY RECOLLECTION, THAT IS, THAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR SORT OF A TEN-YEAR PERIOD BUT DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT FIFTY-YEAR STORMS, HURRICANES, HUNDRED-YEAR STORMS, TWENTY-FIVE-YEAR STORMS; SO, MY ANALYSIS OF THE CLIMATE OF THAT REGION IS WE HAVE BEEN IN A THIRTY-YEAR DROUGHT AND PEOPLE HAVE -- THIRTY YEARS IS A LONG TIME TO HAVE LOWER WATER CONDITIONS, RAINFALL. AND NOW WE MAY BE MOVING INTO A WETTER PERIOD, AND I THINK THAT HAS TO BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT. Q. ALL RIGHT, NOW. SO, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS A MILLION ACRE FEET OF WATER THAT WAS MOVED THROUGH THE SYSTEM UNDER AN EXTRAORDINARY SITUATION LAST YEAR, YOU'RE SAYING THAT IF YOU DID THAT, THAT WOULD OVERLOAD THE STA'S UNLESS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1416 THEY'RE DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE THAT LEVEL OF WATER? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE WHAT PROPORTION OF THAT WATER WOULD HAVE, BY REGULATION, NEED TO BE PUT THROUGH THE STA'S. Q. NO, THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION. MY QUESTION IS, ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOUR CONCERN ABOUT THIS MILLION -- YOU SAY MILLION ACRE FEET OF WATER THAT WAS SENT THROUGH THE SYSTEM LAST YEAR--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---WHY DOES THAT CONCERN YOU WITH REGARD TO THE STA'S, THE TRANSFERABILITY OF THE DATA FROM 2A TO THE STA'S? A. IT GIVES ME SOME INDICATION -- WHY IS THAT PARTICULARLY -- WELL, IT TELLS ME THAT -- IT GIVES ME SOME INDICATION THAT, IN FACT, IF WE HAVE, LET'S SAY -- LET'S SUPPOSE WE ENTER A DECADE WITH EXCESSIVE RAINFALL THAT IS BEYOND WHAT I THINK I SAID IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE STA'S WERE DESIGNED FOR RAINFALL -- USING RAINFALL FOR TEN OR FIFTEEN YEARS THAT WAS NORMAL OR LOWER, AT BEST. IT COVERED THE RANGE WITHIN THERE. BUT IF WE GO INTO A WETTER PERIOD, WE WOULD BE HAVING MORE WATER THAT WE WOULD HAVE TO TREAT, AND YOU HAVE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1417 AS I UNDERSTAND IT, TWO OPTIONS. YOU CAN BYPASS IT, WHICH I UNDERSTAND THEY MIGHT NOT ALLOW NOW, OR YOU CAN PUSH IT THROUGH THE STA'S. AND UNLIKE THE WCA'S, THE STA'S ARE A FINITE SIZE, AND, SO, THERE'S NO SLOPOVER, NO BUFFER. IF YOU PUSH WATER INTO THE WCA-2A AND YOU HAVE TOO MUCH WATER AND YOU HAVE TO PUMP FOR THREE MORE DAYS, SO BE IT. YOU JUST PUMP, AND YOU HAVE -- I THINK THE AFFECTED AREA IS ABOUT ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES -- YOU HAVE THIRTY THOUSAND EXTRA HECTARES. SO, THE STA'S WILL NOT HAVE THIS. YOUR CHOICE WILL BE OPEN THE SPIGOT. Q. SO, YOU THINK THE STA'S MAY HAVE BEEN DESIGNED TO BE TOO SMALL GIVEN THESE -- THE POTENTIAL WATERFLOW THAT MIGHT NEED TO BE TREATED? A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY IN SOME YEARS; SOME YEARS NOT. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THE TEN-YEAR RAINFALL DATA WAS TOO LOW IN DESIGNING THE STA'S? A. IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING IT WAS ONLY A TEN-YEAR PERIOD. I'M SAYING -- AND THAT IF IT WAS USED -- IF THAT WAS A TEN-YEAR PERIOD THAT THEY USED, THE LAST, SAY, THE 70'S AND 80'S, IT WOULD BE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE LONG-TERM RAINFALL AVERAGE OF THESE REGIONS. Q. AND WHERE WOULD I FIND THE LONG-TERM RAINFALL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1418 AVERAGES THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED INSTEAD? A. WELL, THE LONG-TERM RAINFALL AVERAGES, I MEAN, I THINK IT EXISTS IN THE DISTRICT DOCUMENTS. THEY HAVE THEM ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT I THINK THEY USED THAT PERIOD BECAUSE -- WELL, I'M NOT SURE; I COULDN'T SPEAK FOR THEM. Q. OKAY. BY THE WAY, IN YOUR PUBLICATIONS, WHAT DO YOU USE TO ESTIMATE PHOSPHOROUS RETENTION? A. WHAT DO I USE? Q. YEAH. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS TOPIC IN YOUR PUBLICATIONS, WHAT DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU TALK ABOUT PHOSPHOROUS RETENTION? WHAT DO YOU USE--- A. WHERE--- Q. ---TO DETERMINE IT? A. WHAT -- I MEAN WHERE--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. Q. ANYWHERE. IN WCA-2A, HAVE YOU DETERMINED--- A. IF YOU CAN SHOW ME THE PUBLICATION, WHERE IT IS, I'LL BE GLAD TO--- Q. WELL, TODAY, YOU'VE MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES WHEN I'VE ASKED YOU ABOUT SETTLING RATES, YOU'VE SAID, NO, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RETENTION. THAT'S WHAT WE'VE LOOKED AT, AND I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU DID THAT. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1419 A. THAT'S PRIMARILY THE CESIUM ANALYSIS WHEREBY WE LOOK AT -- IT'S A TECHNIQUE THAT WE CAME UP WITH THAT BASICALLY LOOKS AT THE STORAGE IN THE GROUND, SEDIMENT, WHICH IS LOOKING AT PHOSPHOROUS CONCENTRATION IN BULK DENSITY, AND PEAT ACCRETION RATE OVER TIME SO THAT YOU CAN COME UP WITH GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR STORAGE UNIT. IN OTHER WORDS, THAT TELLS YOU -- THAT'S A PHYSICAL NUMBER IN THE GROUND. IF YOU TAKE ENOUGH OF THOSE SAMPLES, YOU CAN DETERMINE HOW MUCH PHOSPHOROUS IS STORED. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER FACTORS THAT YOU BELIEVE DO NOT MAKE THE DATA FROM 2A TRANSFERABLE TO THE STA DESIGN? A. WE'RE EXPLORING SOME OTHER ONES RIGHT NOW, LOOKING AT IT AS A POSSIBILITY OF LOOKING AT THE AMOUNT OF RESIDUAL BASELINE PHOSPHOROUS THAT EXISTS IN THE CORE. Q. WHAT WOULD THAT TELL YOU? A. IT MAY BE THAT, IN FACT, THE ACTUAL PHOSPHOROUS RETENTION THAT'S USED IN THE SEDIMENT ESTI -- I MEAN, IN THE PHOSPHOROUS RETENTION CORES IS TAKING INTO ACCOUNT VERTICAL ACCRETION UPWARD AS WELL AS RAINFALL. IN OTHER WORDS, INHERENT PHOSPHOROUS, AND, THEREFORE, OVER-ESTIMATING THE ACTUAL PERCENTAGE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1420 THAT'S BEING RETAINED FROM EXPORT FROM, LET'S SAY, A RUNOFF. Q. IS THIS -- DOES THIS RELATE TO A VIEW THAT'S BEEN EXPRESSED THAT THERE MAY BE SOURCES OF PHOSPHOROUS THAT WE'RE FINDING IN THESE CORES OTHER THAN AG RUNOFF SOURCES IN THE SURFACE WATER? A. IT RELATES TO THE FACT THERE MAY BE INHERENT PHOSPHOROUS THAT WAS THERE PRIOR TO ANY -- ANYTHING -- YOU FIND INHERENT PHOSPHOROUS IN ALL CORES EVERYWHERE. THERE HAS TO BE SOME PHOSPHOROUS THERE; OTHERWISE, THERE WOULD BE NO LIFE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND IT'S KEPT AT A FAIRLY UNIFORM RATE IN THE PROFILE BY ORGANISMS ALL THE TIME AND THAT'S -- AND IT'S RECYCLED, AND THAT'S KEPT THERE. Q. DOES THIS RELATE TO YOUR -- YOU ASKED DR. MARIN TO DO SOMETHING WITH REGARD TO THE ZERO INTERSECT IN SOME OF WALKER'S WORK? A. WE LOOKED AT THAT, YES. Q. RIGHT. AND WHAT WAS THE CONCLUSION OF LOOKING AT THAT? A. I BELIEVE HIS MODELING HE DID NOT FIND -- I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT -- I THINK HE DECIDED IF IT WAS THERE, IT WAS A SMALL -- I THINK IT WAS A SMALL AMOUNT OF CHANGE IN TERMS OF USING THAT PARTICULAR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1421 MODEL. Q. SO, HE DIDN'T THINK THAT -- HE DIDN'T AGREE WITH YOUR HYPOTHESIS IN THAT REGARD, DID HE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, HE SAID HE COULD NOT MODEL IT. HE DID NOT HAVE THE DATA AT THE TIME TO MODEL THAT. HE COULD NOT FIGURE OUT FROM THE DATA THAT WE HAD HOW HE WOULD MODEL THAT INTO THE -- HE COULDN'T PUT IT INTO THE MODEL. Q. WELL, THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I JUST SAID, SO--- A. I KNOW. I'M GIVING YOU WHAT HE TOLD ME. Q. WHAT HE TOLD YOU; OKAY. YOU READ HIS DEPOSITION? HAVE YOU READ HIS DEPOSITION? A. NO, I HAVEN'T, BUT I'M JUST TELLING YOU WHAT HE TOLD ME WHEN WE -- WE WERE SITTING THERE TRYING TO LOOK AT THIS DATA. Q. YOU TWO WERE TOGETHER WHEN HE DID THIS? A. SOMETIMES WE WERE, SOMETIMES WE WEREN'T. Q. AND THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT, LOOKING AT THIS ZERO INTERSECT? A. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT MAY HAVE BEEN A PHONE CONVERSATION. I CAN'T REMEMBER. Q. ALL RIGHT. IN YOUR WORK, DO YOU HAVE ANY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1422 ESTIMATES BASED ON THIS TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. ESTIMATES OF WHAT? Q. IN ANY -- DO YOU USE THAT -- DO YOU USE THE TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE THAT DR. WALKER USED, THAT YOU'VE MADE REFERENCE TO, IN ANY OF YOUR WORK? A. I DON'T -- I HAVE NOT -- AS I -- I'VE NOT CALCULATED HIS SETTLING RATE, PER SE. Q. DO YOU RELY ON THAT TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE IN ANY OF THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU REACHED? A. WELL, THE -- THE PHOSPHOROUS STORAGE RATE IN THE GROUND WHICH DR. WALKER USED IS REALLY MY TECHNIQUE, IF YOU'RE ASKING THAT. Q. YOU MEAN -- TELL ME WHY THAT'S -- WHY YOU SAID WHAT YOU JUST DID. A. WE DEVELOPED THE CESIUM TECHNIQUE FOR THE EVERGLADES--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---OTHER PEOPLE HAD DEVELOPED IT BEFORE I HAD. I DID NOT DEVELOP THIS WHOLE TECHNIQUE, BUT I -- WE UTILIZED IT THERE WHEN PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO BE USED; AND, THEN, BASICALLY, CAME UP WITH AN ESTIMATE OF HOW MUCH PHOSPHOROUS IS STORED IN THE GROUND, OKAY? AND THAT IS A TWENTY-SIX YEAR STORAGE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1423 NUMBER--- Q. OKAY. A. ---SO, IN A SENSE, WALKER IS USING THAT DATA. Q. SO, WHERE'D HE GO WRONG? A. WELL, HE BASICALLY TAKES THE MEAN OF ALL THOSE VALUES, AND I -- I THINK YOU'D HAVE TO ASK SOME OTHER MODELERS. BUT AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THAT ESTIMATE COMES OUT AS A TWENTY-SIX YEAR -- I HEARD DR. KADLEC IN HIS DEPOSITION SAY THAT'S NOT A YEAR-TO -- DOES NOT PREDICT YEAR-TO-YEAR AVERAGES; IT ONLY PREDICTS TWENTY-SIX YEAR MEAN, BECAUSE THAT'S THE DATA WE USED. AND WOULD YOU EXPECT -- WE WOULD ASK, "WOULD YOU EXPECT YEAR-TO-YEAR VARIATIONS?" AND HE SAID "YES." MR. REID: DO YOU WANT TO TAKE A BREAK? (THEREUPON, A BREAK WAS TAKEN FROM 3:49 P.M. TO 4:11 P.M.) EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES: Q. HAVE YOU THOUGHT OF ANY OTHER REASONS WHY YOU BELIEVE THE DATA FROM 2A IS NOT TRANSFERRABLE TO THE STA'S? A. I HADN'T SPENT ANY MORE TIME THINKING ABOUT IT ON THE BREAK. Q. OKAY. THAT'S FAIR. A. I ASSUME WE -- WE COVERED THE PROBLEMS WITH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1424 THE CORES THAT I TALKED ABOUT. Q. OKAY. BEFORE THIS MEETING ON FRIDAY, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD A MEETING? OH, NO, I'M SORRY. YOU TOLD ME KADLEC; YOU WERE AT KADLEC'S DEPOSITION. A. RIGHT. Q. BEFORE THAT, WHAT WAS YOUR INVOLVEMENT? A. WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL MEETINGS IN MIAMI, TO MY RECOLLECTION, BUT I DON'T -- AND I HAVE BEEN IN -- WHAT IS THIS, THE END OF MARCH? I HAVE BEEN -- BACKING UP. OVER THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS, I HAVE BEEN IN MEETINGS -- I CAN'T TELL YOU, THREE OR FOUR TIMES -- WHICH WOULD BE FEBRUARY, EARLY MARCH. Q. IN MIAMI? IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE SEVERAL MEETINGS IN MIAMI? A. RIGHT. RIGHT. AND I CAN'T TELL YOU THE DATES FROM MEMORY. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THESE MEETINGS? A. ONE MEETING WAS TO REVIEW WALKER DOCUMENTS. ONE MEETING WAS TO -- FOR CARLOS AND I TO MEET. WE ACTUALLY MET AND TALKED ON SOME THINGS, CARLOS MARIN, AND I DID SOME OF THAT. ONE MEETING PRIOR TO -- ONE MEETING WAS PART OF RON JONES' DEPOSITION; I WAS THERE FOR ABOUT A DAY AND A HALF IN THE DEPOSITION. I MET WITH -- I THINK IT'S DR. WANG AND HIS COLLEAGUE AT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1425 UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI ONE DAY--- Q. FOR WHAT PURPOSE? A. BASICALLY, THEY WERE LOOKING AT THE WALKER MODEL. THEY HAD SOME SUMMARY INFORMATION ON THAT. Q. WHY WERE YOU MEETING WITH THEM? A. I GUESS TO BRING ME UP TO SPEED ON WHAT -- WHAT THEY HAD FOUND. Q. AND WHAT HAD THEY FOUND? A. BASICALLY, I GUESS, THEY HAD TRIED TO REPRODUCE WALKER'S TEN POINT TWO FIVE, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT, AND -- THEY WERE GIVEN A SPECIFIC TASK TO DO, AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THEY WERE NOT REALLY DEALING -- THEY WERE ACTUALLY DEALING WITH, I GUESS, HYDROPERIOD QUESTIONS AND LOOKING AT HYDROPERIOD EFFECTS. Q. WELL, HAD THEY BEEN ABLE TO RECREATE WALKER'S NUMBERS? A. I BELIEVE SO, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT THEY -- WHAT THEY HAD -- I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WAS THE MAJOR EFFORT THAT THEY WERE -- I MEAN, ANYBODY CAN CREATE -- I CAN CREATE -- RECREATE WALKER'S NUMBERS. IF YOU USE THE EXACT SAME MODEL, PUT IN THE EXACT SAME NUMBERS, THAT'S NOT -- THIS IS A VERY SIMPLE MODEL. Q. SO, WHAT WERE THEY DOING WITH REGARD TO HYDROPERIOD? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1426 A. THEY WERE -- I THINK THEY WERE ASKED TO LOOK AT THE TRANSFERABILITY ISSUE. Q. AND DID THEY ADD ANYTHING TO WHAT YOU KNEW ABOUT IT, OR WHAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT? A. THE MAJOR POINT THAT I REMEMBER AT THAT MEETING -- AND I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE DETAILS OF IT BECAUSE I'M NOT THE MODELER, SO THEY WERE DISCUSSING A LOT OF MODELING ASPECTS -- THE MAJOR POINT THAT I GOT OUT OF IT WAS THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE TRANSFERABILITY RELATED TO THE HYDROGRAPH AND HYDROPERIOD. Q. CONCERNS ABOUT HYDRO--- A. I MEAN, HYDROGRAPH. EXCUSE ME. Q. WHAT'S A HYDROGRAPH? A. WELL, AS I THINK THEY WERE DESCRIBING IT, IN THE PERIOD OF TIME -- BASICALLY HOW YOU MOVE THE WATER THROUGH THE SYSTEM OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S WHAT'S UNDER THE CURVE OF THE--- Q. AND WHEN THEY SAID TRANSFERABILITY, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT OF THE 2A EXPERIENCE TO THE DESIGN OF STA'S? A. I BELIEVE SO. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ABOUT THE HYDROGRAPHS? DID--- A. HYDROPERIOD -- OR THE HYDROGRAPHS, I MEAN? I GUESS THAT'S RIGHT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1427 Q. YEAH. WHAT WERE THEY SAYING--- A. IT IS NOT TRANSFERRABLE BECAUSE OF THE WAY IN WHICH 2A IS FUNCTIONING--- Q. BECAUSE OF THE FLOW--- A. ---AND THE FACT--- Q. ---THE FLOW OF 2A? A. WELL, THE FLOW, AND THEY ALSO HAD QUESTIONS, I BELIEVE, ON DEPTH, AND THEY ALSO HAD QUESTIONS, PRIMARILY, ON THAT IT WAS NOT -- THAT THE HYDROGRAPH IS NOT INHERENTLY -- AND I'M JUST PARAPHRASING HERE BECAUSE, AS I SAID, I'M NOT THE MODELER, BUT THEY WERE WORKING ON SOME EQUATIONS TO LOOK AT THE HYDROGRAPH EFFECTS. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT ABOUT THE HYDROLOGY OF 2A THEY FOUND WHICH CAUSED THE DATA NOT TO BE TRANSFERRABLE? A. I BELIEVE THEY LOOKED AT SOME SUBSETS OF DATA, AND THEY WERE -- THEY WERE DISCUSSING THIS IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT WHETHER OR NOT THEY COULD REPRODUCE WITH SUBSETS OF DATA UNDER SHORTER PERIODS REPRESENTATIVE WATER, LOSS OF PHOSPHOROUS FROM THE WATER COLUMN, UTILIZING WALKER'S MODEL. Q. AND THEY COULD NOT? A. I DON'T BELIEVE THEY COULD -- WHICH RELATES TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1428 THE LONG-YEAR AVERAGE TRANSFERABILITY THING. Q. SO, THEY USED WALKER'S APPROACH BUT THEY CHANGED THE HYDROLOGY ASSUMPTIONS? A. I'M NOT -- THEY DID NOT GO INTO EXTREME DETAIL. IT WAS MORE OF A SUMMARY ANALYSIS, AND I WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE THERE, SO I--- Q. BUT AS YOU UNDERSTOOD IT, THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO RECREATE THE--- A. THEY WERE TESTING SOME ASPECTS. Q. ---TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THEY COULD RESULT IN THE SAME PHOSPHOROUS LOSS THAT WALKER PREDICTED, BUT THEY MADE SOME CHANGE TO WHAT WALKER WAS DOING. WHAT CHANGE HAD THEY MADE? A. I THINK THEY CHANGED THE TIME PERIODS. Q. MEANING TIME--- A. WELL, FLOW EVENTS, I MEAN. Q. DO YOU MEAN THE DURATION OF FLOWS, OR DO YOU MEAN SOMETHING ELSE? A. I BELIEVE THEY WERE DOING THE DURATIONS OF FLOWS, RIGHT; THEY WERE CHANGING--- Q. CHANGE -- THEY WERE CHANGING? YOU STOPPED IN THE MIDDLE OF A SENTENCE. A. YEAH. I MEAN, THERE'RE JUST DIFFERENT DURATIONS OF FLOWS, TYPICAL FLOW PATTERNS FOR WHAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1429 PERIOD; WHAT WOULD BE REPRESENTATIVE OF 2A, FOR EXAMPLE. Q. AND THEY BELIEVED THAT WALKER WAS NOT USING 2A REPRESENTATIVE DATA IN HIS APPROACH? A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. Q. IS THAT A FACT? A. I DON'T REMEMBER THEM SAYING THAT. Q. WELL, WHAT WERE THEY DOING, THAT WALKER DID OR DIDN'T DO, THAT CAUSED THEM NOT TO REACH THE SAME RESULT, OR DID THEY JUST FIND A FAILING IN WALKER'S ANALYSIS? A. I THINK I SAID EARLIER THEY WERE ABLE TO REPRODUCE WALKER'S RESULT. Q. SURE, USING THE CORE DATA AND THE SETTLING RATE. THAT'S WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT. A. USING -- IF YOU USE EXACTLY WHAT WALKER'S USING, YOU GET THE SAME RESULT. Q. ALL RIGHT, NOW. BUT THEN THEY DID SOMETHING THAT CAUSED THEM TO CHANGE--- A. CORRECT. Q. ---IT RESULTED IN SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WALKER FOUND, AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IS IT BECAUSE -- IS IT BECAUSE THEY CHANGED SOME ASSUMPTIONS, OR DO THEY THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH WALKER'S DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1430 APPROACH? A. I'M HESITATING HERE BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO THINK OF HOW THEY -- HOW THEY PHRASED THAT. I THINK -- ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS THEY DID WAS, THEY LOOKED AT SHORTER TIME FRAMES OF WATER PULSES TO SEE IF IT COULD BE ACCURATELY PREDICTED. THAT'S ONE THING. Q. IF SETTLING RATE COULD BE ACCURATELY PREDICTED? A. IF -- IF WALKER'S MODEL COULD ACCURATELY PREDICT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO CERTAIN FLOW EVENTS THAT WENT THROUGH A SYSTEM. Q. SO, I TAKE IT, THEN, THEY WOULD SUGGEST THAT IF YOU CHANGE THOSE ASSUMPTIONS, THE WAY THE WATER'S MANAGED, YOU MIGHT GET A DIFFERENT RESULT--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. Q. ---AND THAT WOULD BE A DESIGN CRITICISM? A. COULD BE, I GUESS. Q. OKAY. YOU--- A. THEY'LL HAVE TO REALLY GO THROUGH THE--- Q. SURE. A. ---DETAILS OF THAT, THOUGH. Q. YOU WERE GOING THROUGH MEETINGS THAT YOU HAD; ANY OTHER -- WHAT WAS THE NEXT MEETING? A. LET'S SEE. WELL, I GAVE YOU THE GENTLEMAN'S DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1431 DEPOSITION, RIGHT? Q. RIGHT. A. I MET WITH -- I MET TWICE WITH WANG, AND I THINK THE SECOND TIME WAS TO BASICALLY LOOK AT SOME OTHER ASPECTS OF THAT. Q. OTHER ASPECTS OF WHAT, THE SAME WORK THEY WERE DOING BEFORE? A. RIGHT. Q. WHO WOULD BE PRESENT AT THESE MEETINGS BESIDES YOU? A. I THINK THE FIRST TIME WE MET WAS JUST ME. OH, EXCUSE ME -- WELL, JUST ME AS ANOTHER SCIENTIST; AND IT WAS DR. WANG AND DR. -- GOD, HERE WE GO AGAIN -- COE SOMEBODY -- IT WAS A DUTCH NAME. AND I THINK MARK KOBELINSKI WAS IN THE FIRST MEETING. THAT WAS -- AND MYSELF, AND THAT WAS IT. Q. OKAY. ANY OTHER MEETINGS? A. WE HAD A SECOND MEETING WITH THEM--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---AND THEN -- OKAY, THAT MEETING. OKAY. YOU WANT TO KNOW THE MEETINGS BESIDES THAT? Q. YEAH. YOU'RE KIND OF GOING BACK. HAVE YOU GIVEN ME ALL--- A. OKAY. I'M TRYING TO THINK -- TRYING TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1432 KEEP -- I'M LOSING GROUND HERE; I'M GOING BACK--- Q. HAVE YOU GIVEN ME ALL THE '94 MEETINGS? A. SORRY? Q. HAVE YOU GIVEN ME ALL THE '94 MEETINGS? A. I COULDN'T TELL YOU. Q. OKAY. A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK, PROBABLY, AND CHECK WITH LISA ON MY -- SHE KEEPS A ROUGH CALENDAR OF IN TOWN, OUT OF TOWN; AND I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK THERE WERE A COUPLE OF OTHER MEETINGS IN MIAMI, JUST GENERAL MEETINGS THAT WE HAD. Q. WITH LAWYERS AND OTHER EXPERTS AND SO FORTH? A. RIGHT, RIGHT. THERE WERE AT LEAST SEVERAL OTHER MEETINGS, BUT I CAN'T -- YOU KNOW, I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT--- Q. BACK IN '93, WERE YOU HAVING MEETINGS, ALSO, AT SUCH A FEVERED PACE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. A FEVERED PACE. Q. AT SUCH A FEVERED PACE? A. WE HAD ALMOST NO MEETINGS WHILE MEDIATION WAS GOING ON, SO, I DON'T KNOW WHEN -- WHEN DID MEDIATION -- DECEMBER 17TH OR SOMETHING, WAS THAT -- THAT'S THE MAGIC DATE? I THINK I HAVE THAT ONE BURNED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1433 IN MY BRAIN BECAUSE I WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED. THINGS WERE GOING QUITE NICELY. IT WAS NOT MY FAVORITE CHRISTMAS PRESENT. AND, SO, IN THAT TIME FRAME PRIOR TO THAT, THERE WERE -- THERE WERE LONG GAPS IN THERE WHERE I WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH -- I WASN'T INVOLVED WITH MEDIATION. OCCASIONALLY, I'D GET PHONE CALLS. SO, REALLY, WE'RE TALKING -- THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONE MEETING IN DECEMBER, AND SOMETHING IN I THINK EARLY JANUARY. WE'RE GET -- THERE'S NOT -- THERE'S ONLY THAT TIME FRAME THAT I CAN REMEMBER. THERE WERE A FEW THINGS BACK IN THERE BUT NOT MUCH. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU REACHED A POINT WHERE YOU CAN SUMMARIZE THE OPINIONS THAT YOU WILL BE GIVING IN THIS PROCEEDING? A. WELL, I -- SOME OF THE ONES -- SOME OPINIONS, YES. Q. ARE THERE OTHER OPINIONS THAT AREN'T FINALIZED YET BECAUSE RESEARCH IS STILL GOING ON? A. YES, I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE CASE. Q. OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU JUST IN SUMMARY FORM -- AND I WANT TO TRY TO GET THESE DOWN BEFORE WE LEAVE TODAY -- WHY DON'T YOU GIVE ME YOUR OPINIONS THAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH IN TERMS OF BEING FINAL, AND NO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1434 FURTHER RESEARCH AND SO FORTH. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. OVERLY BROAD. MR. REID: WE'LL SEE. GO AHEAD. A. OPINIONS ON--- Q. THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE TESTIFYING TO. A. ---ANYTHING? Q. WELL, PROBABLY NOT ON THE FINAL FOUR, BUT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE TESTIFYING TO IN THIS CASE. A. I HAVE ARKANSAS--- Q. YOU SAY THAT NOW THAT RALPH McCAUGHAN HAS GONE. A. WHERE TO START ON THIS -- OPINIONS. WELL, I MEAN, I WAS ORIGINALLY -- WHEN I WAS ORIGINALLY BROUGHT IN TO DO RESEARCH WAS BASICALLY TO COME UP WITH AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EFFECTS OF HYDROLOGY IN NUTRIENTS ON CATTAIL EXPANSION, SO I WILL HAVE AN OPINION ON THAT. Q. AND WHAT -- GIVE ME THAT OPINION. A. I THINK THE CATTAIL ISSUE IS OVERBLOWN IN TERMS OF ITS MAGNITUDE. I THINK THAT CATTAILS HAVE BEEN A NATIVE SPECIES FOR A LONG TIME AND THAT IT IS A LOCALIZED PROBLEM, BUT THAT THE EVERGLADES ITSELF AS A -- ON THE WHOLE ARE NOT IMMEDIATELY THREATENED BY CATTAILS. I SAW NO EVIDENCE OF THIS IN THE PARK. ON DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1435 MY VISITS THERE, I SAW SMALL, TINY, ALMOST MINUSCULE PIECES OF CATTAIL NEAR -- MOSTLY NEAR JUST YOUR STRUCTURES. Q. IN THE PARK? A. IN THE PARK. I SAW CATTAILS, FOR EXAMPLE, DURING THE EXPANSE ALONG THE CANALS OF LOXAHATCHEE, NOT VERY FAR INTO THE LOXAHATCHEE. AND THEN WHEN I PIECE THIS TOGETHER LOOKING AT SOME OF THE MAPS THAT HAVE BEEN PRODUCED IN VARIOUS FORMS FROM MIKE DENNIS AND HIS GROUP OVER SEVERAL YEARS, AND SOME OF OUR FIELD SURVEYS, IT APPEARS THAT MY ORIGINAL ESTIMATE OF ABOUT PROBABLY NO MORE THAN FIVE PERCENT OF THE GLADES IS REALLY AFFECTED BY MAJOR CATTAIL MONOCULTURES, THAT PROBABLY PRETTY MUCH EXISTS -- THAT'S WHAT IT IS TODAY. AND IT COULD BE LESS. IT DEPENDS ON THE PARTICULAR PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. IT WOULD BE FAR LESS IN THE PARK. AND ON A LOCALIZED BASIS, IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU'RE SIZING IT. SO, ANYWAYS, I THINK ON A LANDSCAPE SCALE, THAT THE CATTAIL ISSUE IS -- IT'S AN IMPORTANT ONE TO LOOK AT, BUT IT'S NOT THE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THE EVERGLADES. MY SECOND OPINION RELATED TO THE CATTAIL ISSUE RELATES TO HOW CATTAILS GOT THERE AND HOW -- HOW THEY BECAME ESTABLISHED AND THEN HOW -- IN TERMS OF THAT, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1436 UNDERSTANDING THE DYNAMICS OF CATTAILS, AND SO THAT ONE COULD EVENTUALLY MANAGE THEM IF YOU WANTED TO DO SO. AND I HAD SOME EXPERIMENTS SET UP TO ADDRESS THAT, AND THOSE STUDIES ARE NOW IN--- Q. OKAY. WHICH EXPERIMENTS ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF HOW THE CATTAILS GOT THERE? A. THE ONE IN TERMS OF ESTABLISHMENT IS CALLED "THE DISTURBANCE/HYDROLOGY STUDY." Q. I ASSUME THIS IS HOW IT WOULD BE LISTED IN YOUR ANNUAL REPORT? A. CORRECT. IT MAY THERE BE CALLED HYDROLOGY/DISTURBANCE, BUT IT'S--- Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S ONE STUDY. WHAT OTHER STUDIES RELATE TO THE QUESTION OF HOW THE CATTAILS GOT THERE? A. THE FERTILIZER STUDY WOULD ADDRESS THAT. Q. OKAY. A. THOSE WOULD BE THE TWO MAIN STUDIES THAT WE HAVE LONG-TERM DATA ON THAT WE WOULD UTILIZE AS ACTUAL EXPERIMENTS TO ACTUALLY TEST HYPOTHESES, OF WHICH THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THESE IN THE EVERGLADES. Q. AND WHAT IS -- WHAT IS YOUR OPINION WITH REGARD TO THE QUESTION OF HOW THE CATTAILS GOT THERE? A. WE POSTULATED ORIGINALLY, IN THE FIRST DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1437 EXPERIMENT I MENTIONED, WAS THAT DISTURBANCE -- DISTURBANCE WAS REQUIRED FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF CATTAILS. Q. OKAY. THAT'S YOUR ANSWER? THAT'S YOUR OPINION TODAY, THAT THE CATTAILS BECAME A FIVE PERCENT MONOCULTURE IN THE -- FIVE PERCENT OF THE EVERGLADES BECAME CATTAIL MONOCULTURE BECAUSE OF DISTURBANCE? A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I SAID HOW THEY BECAME ESTABLISHED IN CERTAIN AREAS. HOW DO CATTAILS FIRST BECOME ESTABLISHED; AND, SO, THE DISTURBANCE/HYDROLOGY STUDY WAS SET UP TO BASICALLY TEST VARIOUS TYPES OF DISTURBANCE; AND WE DID SO, AND WE HAVE OUR -- OUR FIRST -- WE'RE GOING INTO OUR SECOND YEAR OF DATA. Q. OKAY. AND YOUR CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY GOT THERE BECAUSE -- IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, BECAUSE OF DISTURBANCE? A. IN ALL OF THE DISTURBED TYPE OF PLOTS THAT WERE REPLICATED VERSUS THE CONTROLS, WE HAD CATTAILS BECOME ESTABLISHED. Q. DOES THAT -- DID THAT HAPPEN WITHOUT REGARD TO OTHER FACTORS, SUCH AS HYDROLOGY? A. THE HYDROLOGY WAS UNIFORM IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE WITHIN THE NORMAL BOUNDS. Q. NUTRIENTS? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1438 A. THE PHOSPHOROUS CONCENTRATIONS IN THE SOIL AND THE WATER WERE LOW. Q. ANY OTHER VARIABLES? A. WELL, THERE ARE OTHER TREATMENTS. Q. TREATMENTS; YOU MEAN THE LEVELS OF NUTRIENTS THAT YOU APPLIED AND SO FORTH? A. NO, IT WAS--- Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY TREATMENTS? A. WELL, THAT'S -- THE EXPERIMENT WAS SET UP TO ESTABLISH VARIOUS TYPES OF DISTURBANCE SO THAT ONE COULD TEST THE HYPOTHESIS OF WHETHER DISTURBANCE COULD, IN FACT, INITIATE CATTAILS WITH OR WITHOUT NUTRIENTS UNDER VARIOUS DISTURBANCE CONDITIONS. Q. SO -- AND YOU FOUND THAT -- ANY PARTICULAR KIND OF DISTURBANCES, OR JUST DISTURBANCES IN GENERAL? A. WELL, WE -- WE BASICALLY -- THE FIRST AND KEY PIECES, YOU HAVE TO REMOVE THE PRESENT VEGETATION THAT'S THERE. OKAY, IN THIS CASE, IT WAS SAWGRASS. IF YOU REMOVE THE PRESENT VEGETATION, OKAY, AND THEN WE REMOVE THE SEED BANK BY BAKING THE SOIL FOR EIGHTEEN MONTHS UNDER BLACK PLASTIC AND THEN REMOVING IT, AND THEN WE BASICALLY LEFT ONE PLOT -- THESE TWO-BY-TWO METER PLOTS -- ALONE. AND THEN ON SECOND PLOT, WE DISTURBED THE SOIL, JUST TURNED IT OVER LIGHTLY, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1439 ABOUT FIFTEEN CENTIMETERS. THE THIRD PLOT, WE ADDED PHOSPHOROUS. AND THE FOURTH PLOT, WE TOOK OFF THE TOP FIFTEEN CENTIMETERS, DUG DOWN FORTY CENTIMETERS, PUT THE TOPSOIL BACK INTO THE GROUND SO IT WAS A HOLE UNDER WATER. AND WE REPLICATED THIS SERIES, THEN, THREE DIFFERENT TIMES IN AREAS THAT HAD BEEN ORIGINALLY ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SAWGRASS. THEN, BESIDE THAT, HAD A SERIES OF REPLICATED PLOTS THAT WERE LEFT AS JUST SAWGRASS. WE DID NOTHING. AND THEN WE FOLLOWED SOIL, WATER, WATER DEPTHS, THE CHEMISTRY AND ALL THE SPECIES THAT CAME BACK IN OVER THIS LAST YEAR. Q. OKAY. AND YOUR CONCLUSION FROM ALL THIS IS THAT THE CATTAILS INITIALLY GOT STARTED IN THE EVERGLADES BECAUSE OF DISTURBANCE? A. WELL, I CAN SAY FROM THIS PARTICULAR STUDY--- MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. OBJECT TO THE FORM. YOU MAY ANSWER. WITNESS: CAN I HAVE THE QUESTION AGAIN, PLEASE? MR. REID: YEAH. Q. (BY MR. REID) YOUR CONCLUSION FROM THIS STUDY IS THAT THE CATTAILS GOT STARTED IN THE EVERGLADES DUE TO DISTURBANCE? A. RIGHT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1440 Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU'RE GOING THROUGH YOUR OPINIONS. WHAT'S YOUR NEXT OPINION? A. WELL, IT'S JUST -- THAT STUDY, YOU MEAN? Q. NO, NO. IN GENERAL, WHAT ARE YOUR OTHER OPINIONS? I'M TRYING TO GET A LIST OF ALL YOUR OPINIONS THAT YOU'RE PREPARED TO TESTIFY TO AT TRIAL. THE FIRST OPINION AS I WROTE IT DOWN WAS--- A. SO, THAT'S THE ESTABLISHMENT OPINION. Q. OKAY. THAT'S THE ESTABLISHMENT OPINION. THE FIRST OPINION WAS THAT IT'S OVERBLOWN IN TERMS -- THE PROBLEM IS OVERBLOWN IN TERMS OF MAGNITUDE, AND THEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT. AND THEN YOUR SECOND OPINION IS THAT THEY GOT THERE INITIALLY AS A RESULT OF DISTURBANCE. WHAT OTHER OPINIONS DO YOU HAVE? A. IN TERMS OF -- THE FERTILIZER STUDY WAS SET UP TO ESTABLISH THE--- MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME. JUST FOR THE RECORD, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO BE CANTANKEROUS. I DON'T THINK DR. RICHARDSON SAID CATTAILS ORIGINATED IN THE EVERGLADES BY DISTURBANCE. MR. REID: I THINK HE SAID THAT EXACTLY, BUT I'LL FIND OUT. MR. GREEN: WELL, I'D LIKE YOU TO ASK DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1441 HIM AGAIN. Q. (BY MR. REID) IS THAT A FACT? DID YOUR STUDY DEMONSTRATE THAT EVERGLADES -- HOW THEY GOT THERE IS WHAT YOU WERE SAYING; THE ANSWER WAS DISTURBANCE? A. HOW THAT CAN BECOME ESTABLISHED IS BY -- AN AREA THAT WAS ONCE FORMERLY VEGETATED BY -- I SAID, I THINK, THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT STEP WAS YOU FIRST HAVE TO REMOVE THE VEGETATION, THEN YOU HAD TO CREATE A DISTURBANCE; OKAY. CATTAILS HAVE BEEN -- AS I SAID EARLIER TODAY, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT, HAVE BEEN IN THE EVERGLADES FOR A LONG TIME. Q. SO, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS HOW THEY BECOME ESTABLISHED AS A MONOCUL -- WHICH LEADS ULTIMATELY TO MONOCULTURE? A. IT MAY OR MAY NOT; IT DEPENDS ON OTHER -- THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER STEPS THAT HAVE TO GO THROUGH. Q. WELL, WHAT DOES -- THEN I'M CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT YOUR CONCLUSION MEANS AS FAR AS DISTURBANCE. WHAT IS CAUSED BY DISTURBANCE? A. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT -- HOW THE CATTAILS -- WELL, YOU CAN ASK IT SEVERAL WAYS, BUT CAN CATTAILS BECOME ESTABLISHED IN AREAS UNDER WHAT SCENARIOS? CAN THEY BECOME ESTABLISHED IN AREAS THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1442 ARE LEFT TOTALLY VEGETATED, LET'S SAY? CAN THEY BECOME IN AREAS THAT HAVE JUST THE VEGETATION REMOVED, LET'S SAY, LIKE AN AIR BOAT GOES THROUGH OR WHATEVER? CAN THEY BECOME DISTURBED -- CAN THEY BECOME ESTABLISHED IN AREAS THAT HAVE DIFFERENT HYDROLOGIES OR DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF PHOSPHOROUS? AND THE ANSWER TO THAT IS IT APPEARS FROM OUR DATA THAT IF YOU DISTURB THE SOIL AND REMOVE THE NATIVE VEGETATION FROM THAT SO THERE'S NO COMPETITION, IT'S NOT A SURPRISING RESULT BUT IT IS A RESULT THAT SHOWS THAT THESE DISTURBANCES WILL ALLOW CATTAILS TO BECOME IN. IT'S A -- IT'S AN EXPLORATORY SPECIES, THEY WILL BECOME ESTABLISHED. OKAY. THAT'S -- THAT'S ONLY ONE STEP OF THIS VERY COMPLEX ISSUE ON CATTAILS. IF YOU CAN'T ESTABLISH THEM, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEM. IF YOU -- BUT IF YOU CREATE CONDITIONS FOR THEIR ESTABLISHMENT, THEN THEY WILL COME IN. Q. REGARDLESS OF ALL THESE OTHER FACTORS, HYDROLOGY AND NUTRIENTS, YOU BELIEVE? A. NO, NOT REGARDLESS OF ALL THE OTHER FACTORS. I'M SIMPLY SAYING UNDER THE SCENARIO, THE CONDITIONS WE SET UP, THAT WAS A TYPICAL SAWGRASS COMMUNITY, VERY HEALTHY; AND WE REMOVED THAT VEGETATION. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, WOULD IT COME BACK TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1443 SAWGRASS? WHAT WOULD IT COME BACK TO? AND, SO, THE QUESTION IS, COULD CATTAILS BECOME ESTABLISHED IN THIS AREA? IT DIDN'T HAVE NUTRIENTS, DIDN'T HAVE ELEVATED WATER AT THIS TIME, WHATEVER--- Q. AND IT CAME BACK AS CATTAILS? A. NOT EXCLUSIVELY. THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER SPECIES IN THERE. Q. OKAY. GO AHEAD. A. NOW WILL BE THE FUN TO DETERMINE WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THAT. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS HOW THE CATTAILS BECAME ESTABLISHED IN THE AREA THAT HAS BECOME THE MONOCULTURE OF CATTAILS IN THE NORTH PART OF 2A? A. I BELIEVE THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE TO INDICATE THAT PART OF THE CATTAILS THAT WERE ESTABLISHED THERE BECAME AS A RESULT OF DISTURBANCE. Q. I WANT TO TRY TO GET ALL YOUR OPINIONS LISTED BEFORE WE BREAK FOR THE DAY, IF POSSIBLE, SO, GO AHEAD; GIVE ME YOUR OTHER OPINIONS THAT YOU'RE PREPARED TO TESTIFY TO IN THIS CASE. MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. A. WELL, WE'LL CONTINUE ALONG WITH THE EXPERIMENTS. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE -- A GOOD -- WE TALKED ABOUT USING THE DATA, SO THE SECOND HYPOTHESIS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1444 IS WHETHER OR NOT CATTAILS -- WHETHER OR NOT NUTRIENTS, NITROGEN AND PHOSPHOROUS, WOULD RESULT IN THE EXPANSION OF CATTAILS. SO, WE HAVE THESE FERTILIZER EXPERIMENTS SET UP TO DO THAT. Q. AND HAVE -- WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ABOUT THAT? A. WELL, AFTER -- ACCORDING TO OUR THREE YEARS OF DATA ANALYSIS, WE HAVE FERTILIZED -- WE HAVE THREE DIFFERENT SETS OF PLOTS. WE HAVE FERTILIZED TWENTY-SEVEN -- WELL, WE HAVE ESTABLISHED TWENTY-SEVEN PLOTS, OF WHICH WE HAVE VARIOUS LEVELS OF LOW -- OF CONTROLS, LOW PHOSPHOROUS, LOW NITROGEN, MEDIUM PHOSPHORUS, MEDIUM NITROGEN, HIGH PHOSPHOROUS, HIGH NITROGEN COMBINATIONS. WE HAVE, AT THE END OF THAT, INCREASED SOIL PHOSPHOROUS. THESE -- YOU KNOW, AT ALL BACKGROUND LEVELS. WE HAVE NO CATTAILS NOW GOING IN THE FOURTH YEAR IN NOT ANY OF THOSE TREATMENTS. Q. SO, WHAT CONCLUSION DO YOU DRAW FROM THAT? A. THAT THE TRIGGER -- BECAUSE OF ADDED NUTRIENTS AND WE'VE ADDED THOSE LEVELS, THE TRIGGERING MECHANISM TO ESTABLISH CATTAILS, THE ESTABLISHMENT PART OF IT, AT THAT TIME PERIOD, AT LEAST, IT DOESN'T SHOW TO BE STRICTLY NUTRIENTS, EITHER N OR P. Q. IS IT IN PART NUTRIENTS? A. FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT, IT'S A POSSI -- IT'S DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1445 ONE POSSIBILITY. FROM THE EARLIER STUDY, IT SHOWS IT AS A POSSIBILITY. BUT IT APPARENTLY IS DETERMINED BY DISTURBANCE. YOU HAVE TO REMOVE THE NATIVE VEGETATION FIRST, OR WEAKEN IT, OR STRESS IT. Q. OKAY. WHAT'S YOUR NEXT OPINION? A. WELL, RELATED TO ANOTHER -- THE SECOND TWENTY-SEVEN SET OF PLOTS, WE HAVE AN AREA WHERE WE ESTABLISHED WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THE NITROGEN OR PHOSPHOROUS, THE SAME TREATMENTS WITH ONE OVERLAY, AND THAT IS THIS SITE, SAME BACKGROUND SOIL CONDITIONS, IT HAS ONE OTHER FACTOR IN IT, AND IT HAS PULSED WATER, LOW LEVEL, NUTRIENT WATER COMING THROUGH. AND THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT IF THAT ADDITIONAL TREATMENT ON TOP OF THAT WOULD RESULT IN EXPANSION OF CATTAILS. Q. AND WHAT'S YOUR CONCLUSION? A. WELL, PRIOR TO ANY NUTRIENT TREATMENTS, THE PLOTS WE PICKED HAD APPROXIMATELY FIVE PERCENT CATTAILS -- TWO TO FIVE, SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE -- CATTAILS IN THE PLOTS WITH NO EXCESSIVE PHOSPHOROUS IN THEM. Q. OKAY. A. SO, THE SAWGRASS/CATTAIL RATIO WAS MAYBE NINETY-FIVE/FIVE, LET'S SAY, ROUGHLY. SO, THEN WE,HAVE NOW ADDED EXTRA PHOSPHOROUS AND EXTRA NITROGEN IN THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1446 SAME TREATMENTS WE DID TO THE OTHER SITES, LOOKING TO SEE IF, THEN, THAT PULSED WATER WHICH SOME -- SOME PLACES GO TO THIRTY, FORTY CENTIMETERS, WHEREAS THE OTHER SITES STAYED TEN TO FIFTEEN CENTIMETERS. CONCLUSION FROM THAT IS -- FROM THAT PARTICULAR STUDY, IS WE HAVE NOT SEEN -- WE'VE SEEN MUCH BIGGER SAWGRASS AND BIGGER CATTAIL, BUT WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE RATIO CHANGE YET GOING INTO THE FOURTH YEAR. Q. SO, WHAT'S THE CONCLUSION, THAT PULSED WATER DOES NOT -- I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT YOUR CONCLUSION FROM THAT IS. A. WELL, FROM -- FROM THAT PARTICULAR STUDY, THE FERTILIZER COMPONENT RIGHT NOW, IT INDICATES THAT UNTIL YOU WEAKEN THE NATIVE VEGETATION SUFFICIENTLY, THAT THE CATTAILS HAVE NOT EXPANDED, AT LEAST UP TO THIS TIME PERIOD, AND HAVE REPLACED THE SAWGRASS -- OKAY -- EVEN WITH HIGH NUTRIENT TREATMENTS. ALSO, THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THOSE CATTAILS IN THAT REGION, IT ONLY APPEARS -- IT ONLY APPEARS IN THAT REGION, AND IT'S NEAR THE PULSED WATER CONDITION, SO I THINK THE HYDROLOGY HAS HAD SOME EFFECT ON THAT. Q. SO, WHAT THE -- WHEN YOU ADDED THE PULSED WATER, DID YOU BEGIN TO SEE THE CATTAILS OUT-PERFORMING THE--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1447 A. I DIDN'T ADD; THE DISTRICT HAS ADDED. Q. I THOUGHT THIS WAS IN YOUR EXPERIMENT; SORRY. A. THE PLOTS WERE ESTABLISHED NEAR A GATE THE DISTRICT HAD--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THEN THEY OPEN AND CLOSE THE GATE--- Q. OKAY. BUT YOU DID IT TO TEST THE EFFECT OF THE PULSED WATER? A. WE DID IT -- WE BASICALLY -- THERE, I'M SAYING THE CATTAILS ONLY EXISTED AS A RESULT, WE THINK, OF THE PULSED WATER THROUGH THERE. Q. BECAUSE -- WHY IS THAT? A. WE THINK, BECAUSE WE LOOK AT THE SAWGRASS, IT IS SOMEWHAT WEAKENED COMPARED TO THE OTHER. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A--- Q. WHAT'S THIS EXPERIMENT CALLED? HOW IS IT DESCRIBED IN YOUR BOOK? A. FERTILIZER EXPERIMENT. Q. SAME--- A. IT'S -- RIGHT, THERE ARE THREE--- Q. THREE DIFFERENT--- A. ---THREE SUBCOMPONENTS--- Q. OKAY. A. ---OF THE FERTILIZER EXPERIMENT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1448 Q. OKAY. DID YOU DRAW ANY MORE CONCLUSIONS OR ANY MORE OPINIONS IN THIS REGARD? A. WELL, I'M JUST GIVING YOU THE -- YOU DON'T WANT ALL THE GORY DETAILS -- I'M JUST GIVING YOU THE OVERVIEW, YOU SAID. Q. UH-HUH, RIGHT. A. WE HAD A THIRD SET OF PLOTS, THE SLOUGHS. Q. STILL FERTILIZER TESTS? A. STILL FERTILIZER TESTS. Q. OKAY. A. AND THIS WAS TO SEE WHETHER ADDITIONAL NUTRIENTS UNDER DEEPER WATER CONDITIONS WOULD RESULT IN THE INITIATION OF CATTAILS. Q. WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION? A. WELL, TO DATE, WE HAVE NO CATTAILS IN THOSE PLOTS. Q. WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THOSE? THEY WERE IN THE SLOUGH AREAS. A. THEY'RE JUST DEEPER WATER. Q. NO OTHER -- NO OTHER VARIATIONS? A. OH, SAME NUTRIENT TREATMENTS, SAME TWENTY-SEVEN PLOTS, CONTROLS, LOW IN THE PHOSPHOROUS, LOW NITROGEN, MEDIUM PHOSPHOROUS, MEDIUM NITROGEN, HIGH PHOSPHOROUS, HIGH NITROGEN, COMBINATIONS, REPLICATED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1449 THREE TIMES. Q. OKAY. IS THAT ALL? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. THAT'S THE ESSENCE--- Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, BASED ON ALL OF THAT, HAVE YOU DRAWN CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE TESTIFYING TO AT TRIAL BASED ON A COMBINATION OF ALL OF THOSE STUDIES THAT YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT SO FAR? A. WELL, YEAH, AND I HAVE NOT GIVEN YOU ALL. I MEAN, THAT'S -- YOU'RE ASKING FOR AN ENCAPSULATION AND--- Q. SURE. A. ---THE TIME IS GOING -- SO I'M SAYING THAT, IN ESSENCE, I'M GIVING YOU THE EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE, THE FIRST THAT I KNOW OF, IN TERMS OF TRYING TO FERRET OUT AND SEPARATE OUT SOME OF THESE FACTORS, NITROGEN AND PHOSPHOROUS AND WATER CONDITIONS. Q. SURE. AND MY -- WHAT I'M NOW ASKING YOU IS ARE YOU GOING TO TESTIFY TO A CONCLUSION BASED UPON SYNTHESIZING ALL THIS DATA? A. YES. Q. AND WHAT IS THAT CONCLUSION GOING TO BE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. I -- I THOUGHT WE JUST WENT THROUGH THAT, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1450 THAT, IN FACT, NUTRIENTS ARE NOT, BY THEMSELVES, IT APPEARS NOT THE TRIGGERING FACTOR IN ONE CASE OR CATTAIL ESTABLISHMENT, THAT DISTURBANCE IS REQUIRED OF SOME KIND PROBABLY FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF CATTAILS, ALONG WITH THE REMOVAL OF VEGETATION OR WEAKENING OF THE VEGETATION. SO, I WILL PROBABLY DEVELOP A -- THIS WILL ALLOW ME TO DEVELOP A SET OF HYPOTHES -- A SET OF SORT OF A -- DEVELOP A SCENARIO FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT AND DEVELOPMENT OF CATTAILS IN THE GLADES, AND TRYING TO BASICALLY DETERMINE THIS SO WE CAN EVENTUALLY END UP WITH A MANAGEMENT CRITERIA. Q. WHAT YOU JUST GAVE ME IS A SUMMARY FOCUSED ON THE DISTURBANCE AND THE NUTRIENTS. WHAT ABOUT THE HYDROLOGY; IS THAT GOING TO BE PART OF YOUR OPINION BASED ON THIS WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE SO FAR? A. YES, I THINK WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT ONE SET OF PLOTS WHERE THE HYDROLOGY WAS THE ONLY VARYING FACTOR AND THE FACT THAT ONLY WHEN -- ALL THE OTHER CONDITIONS BEING THE SAME, ESSENTIALLY -- THE SOILS AND SO FORTH -- THAT THE HYDROLOGY WOULD BE THE ONE ALTERING FACTOR THAT OSCILLATING CONDITIONS MAY HAVE RESULTED IN WEAKENING OF THE VEGETATION. AND TYING THIS INTO THE OTHER STUDIES WOULD PROBABLY SUGGEST TO ME THAT PULSED HYDROLOGIES CAN RESULT IN ESTABLISHMENT OF CATTAIL, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1451 BEING SORT OF A TYPE OF DISTURBANCE. Q. HOW ABOUT IN EXPANSION, OR WOULD THAT BE THE SAME? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. HOW ABOUT EXPANSION WHAT? Q. WELL, EXPANSION OF CATTAILS. YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT LOOKING AT THE ESTABLISHMENT. WOULD THE SAME FACTORS RESULT IN EXPANSION OR NOT RESULT IN EXPANSION DEPENDING -- OR DO YOU KNOW AT THIS POINT? A. WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS RELATED TO THAT. THE EXPANSION QUESTION REALLY IS A KIND OF A TWO OR THREE-PART QUESTION. AND WHAT REALLY THE EXPANSION OF SPECIES LIKE CATTAIL WOULD DEPEND UPON IS OUT-COMPETING, LET'S SAY, THE NATIVE VEGETATION THERE. WE DON'T HAVE THOSE EXPERIMENTS -- THEY HAVEN'T BEEN CARRIED OUT LONG ENOUGH. THE OTHER THING IS YOU NEED TO -- CATTAILS ARE A VERY COMPETITIVE SPECIES, NO QUESTION ABOUT THIS. BUT ANYTHING THAT WOULD WEAKEN THE NATIVE VEGETATION THAT'S ALREADY THERE WOULD ACCELERATE THE CATTAIL EXPANSION. WE HAVEN'T -- WE HAVEN'T QUANTIFIED THE DEGREE, IF ANY, OF SAWGRASSES. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT -- IF EVERYTHING ELSE WAS CONSTANT AND YOU JUST INCREASE THE NUTRIENTS, WOULD DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1452 THAT RESULT IN THE CATTAILS OUT-COMPETING OR EXPANDING AT THE EXPENSE OF THE SAWGRASS? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WHERE? Q. WHERE YOU'RE DOING YOUR EXPERIMENTS, IN WCA-2A. A. IF I JUST--- MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. A. ---IF I JUST WHAT NOW? Q. EVERYTHING -- IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU LEFT THINGS CONSTANT AND YOU ONLY INCREASED NUTRIENTS; YOU DIDN'T HAVE DISTURBANCE AND YOU JUST INCREASED NUTRIENTS. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. A. WHICH ONE OF THOSE SITES? I MEAN, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SAWGRASS DOESN'T HAVE NO CATTAILS SO THERE WOULD BE -- THERE'S NO -- THERE'S NO--- Q. NO, WHERE YOU HAD SAWGRASS AND CATTAILS--- A. WHERE WE HAD SAWGRASS AND CATTAILS. WE--- Q. ---AND ALL YOU DID IS INCREASE NUTRIENTS. A. WE HAVEN'T SEEN AN EXPANSION YET. Q. OKAY. AND ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1453 CONCLUSION AT THIS POINT? A. YES. I THINK AT THIS POINT -- I CAN'T PROJECT WAY INTO THE FUTURE; BUT, AT THIS POINT, THAT'S WHAT WE SEE. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NUTRIENTS COMING THROUGH THE STRUCTURES CONTRIBUTE TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE CATTAILS WHICH ARE IN THE MONOCULTURE AREA THAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED IN THE NORTHERN PART OF 2A? A. DID THEY CONTRIBUTE TO IT? Q. DO THE NUTRIENTS CONTRIBUTE--- A. I THINK THEY WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO IT. Q. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE CAUSE WOULD YOU ATTRIBUTE TO NUTRIENTS? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. I DON'T THINK I COULD COME UP WITH A NUMBER AS TO WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE CAUSE. I MEAN, AS A SCIENTIST, WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS BREAK IT DOWN STEP BY STEP AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ALLOWS THEM TO GET THERE, WHAT ALLOWS THEM TO OUT-COMPETE, WHAT ALLOWS THEM TO EXPAND, AND THEN HOW YOU CAN CONTROL. THAT'S MY OBJECTIVE. AND ALL I'VE BEEN ABLE TO ESTABLISH AT THIS PERIOD OF TIME IS HOW YOU CAN ALLOW THEM TO GET THERE. RIGHT NOW, THE EVIDENCE SHOWS -- TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ALLOWS THEM TO EXPAND, WE'RE LOOKING AT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1454 THAT COMPETITION FACTOR. BUT THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT NUTRIENTS PLAY SOME ROLE, BUT I CAN'T GIVE YOU THAT DEFINITIVE NUMBER. Q. WELL, WOULD YOU SAY THEY PLAY A DE MINIMIS ROLE, OR DO THEY PLAY A GREATER ROLE IN THAT, AND HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE ROLE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, AS I JUST WENT THROUGH, THE REAL KEY TO THERE IS FROM THE EXPERIMENTS WE HAVE TO DATE, IF YOU ADDED JUST NUTRIENTS -- THIS IS WHY IT'S HARD TO FERRET THIS OUT -- AND YOU DID NOT WEAKEN THE NATIVE VEGETATION THAT WAS THERE, I THINK SPECIES LIKE SAWGRASS, FOR EXAMPLE, COULD HOLD THEIR OWN. BUT IF YOU THEN ADDED THE NUTRIENTS WITH A LARGE VOLUME OF WATER AND WEAKEN THE SAWGRASS TO SOME DEGREE, IT IS MY OPINION -- OR REMOVED IT IN SOME WAY --, IT IS MY OPINION THAT, IN FACT, THEN YOU WOULD HAVE A RAPID EXPANSION OF CATTAILS. I MEAN, PHOSPHOROUS MAKES CATTAILS GROW, IT MAKES SAWGRASS GROW, IT MAKES PLANTS GROW. Q. AND -- OH, OKAY. SO, YOU BELIEVE THAT WITHOUT WEAKENING THE CAT -- WITHOUT SOME FACTOR WEAKENING, DESTROYING, REMOVING THE CATTAIL -- THE SAWGRASS, RATHER -- THAT MERELY INCREASING PHOSPHOROUS WOULD NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1455 CAUSE THE CATTAILS TO OUT-COMPETE THE SAWGRASS? A. WELL, IN THE STUDY WE'VE DONE SO FAR, WE HAVE NOT SEEN THAT WITHOUT -- UNLESS YOU WEAKEN THAT. TO ME, IN COMPETITION, YOU HAVE TO OUT -- WELL, YOU WOULD HAVE TO OUT-COMPETE THE NATIVE SPECIES AND YOU'D HAVE TO REMOVE IT. AND IF IT HAS -- IT OCCUPIES THE NICHE, IT HAS CONTROL OF THAT NICHE, UNLESS YOU CAN DIRECTLY OUT-COMPETE IT FOR NUTRIENTS AND MATERIALS OR SOME OTHER FACTOR COMES IN AND WEAKENS IT, YOU HAVE A -- YOU HAVE DIFFICULT TIME -- POSSESSION IS SORT OF LIKE NINE-TENTHS OF THE LAW. Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS CAUSING -- TO THE EXTENT THERE HAS BEEN SOME EXPANSION OF THE SAWGRASS DOWN THE GRADIENT FROM -- IN 2A, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS CAUSING THAT EXPANSION? A. SAWGRASS. Q. CATTAILS? A. SORRY ABOUT THAT. I THOUGHT YOU SAID WHAT'S CAUSING THE EXPANSION OF SAWGRASS. Q. NO -- IF I DID, IT WAS MY MISTAKE -- CATTAILS. WE TALKED THIS MORNING ABOUT THERE BEING SOME EXPANSION. A. RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT. Q. WHAT CAUSED THE SAWGRASS TO BE WEAKENED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1456 THERE--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. Q. ---TO PERMIT THIS EXPANSION? A. I WOULD SAY THERE WAS A -- SEVERAL FACTORS. ONE -- AND YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PARTICULAR REGION -- BUT, ONE, FIRST OF ALL, WE DON'T HAVE ALL SAWGRASS, SO WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SAWGRASS IN SOME PLACES, AND WE'LL SKIP THAT FOR A MOMENT -- WHERE YOU HAVE SAWGRASS, I THINK THE PULSED HYDROLOGY WHICH HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH THERE HAS HAD SOME EFFECT ON THOSE SPECIES. AND I WOULD SAY WE'VE HAD SOME -- SOME REASONABLE DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS WHICH HAS WEAKENED A NUMBER OF SPECIES, ALL -- CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS, AND--- Q. WELL, WHAT ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS HAS WEAKENED IT? A. WELL, TEN YEARS OF DROUGHT, FOR EXAMPLE. WHEN I WAS OUT THERE IN 1989, SAMPLING IN TENNIS SHOES, DIGGING HOLES THREE FEET FOR WATER, EVERY SPECIES THAT I COULD FIND JUST ABOUT WAS -- WAS UNDER GREAT STRESS. POKEWEED WAS COMING IN; A LOT OF UPLAND TERRESTRIAL SPECIES WERE COMING IN; AND THE FREEZING AND SO FORTH. ALL THE SPECIES WOULD HAVE BEEN AFFECTED TO SOME DEGREE, INCLUDING SAWGRASS, SO -- THEN WE WENT BACK TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1457 MORE OF A HIGH WATER -- AND, OF COURSE, SO WATER AND NUTRIENTS BOTH WOULD, I THINK, WOULD ALLOW CATTAILS TO HAVE -- HAVE TAKEN--- Q. THE WHAT? A. ---WATER AND NUTRIENTS WOULD HAVE ALLOWED CATTAIL TO TAKE SOME ADVANTAGE OF THE OPEN NICHES THAT WERE MADE AVAILABLE AND SO FORTH. Q. SO, THE NUTRIENTS IN THE RUNOFF WOULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED ALSO TO THAT EXPANSION? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, THEY -- THEY WOULD BE -- THEY WOULD PLAY SOME COMPONENT OF IT, OF COURSE. Q. OKAY. WORKING THROUGH YOUR OPINIONS. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. THAT MEANS KEEP WORKING THROUGH YOUR OPINIONS. MR. REID: HE UNDERSTANDS. MR. BURGESS: I DON'T THINK HE DOES. A. LET'S SEE, WHERE DO WE GO? WELL, WE TALKED -- WE TALKED ABOUT THE SETTLING RATE; WE TALKED ABOUT THAT. Q. DO YOU HAVE OPINIONS ABOUT THE SETTLING RATE? WHAT OPINIONS TO YOU HAVE ABOUT THE SETTLING RATE? A. WELL, AS I TOLD YOU -- WE WENT THROUGH THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1458 FOR ABOUT AN HOUR, HOUR AND A HALF. BASICALLY WITH THE ADDITION OF THE NEW DATA THAT WE HAVE AND WITH SOME OF THE TRANSFERABILITY ISSUES THAT EXIST, THAT THERE'S AT LEAST SOME UNCERTAINTY IN MY MIND THAT THE SETTLING RATE THAT'S BEEN PROPOSED IS A GOOD ENOUGH ESTIMATE, AND IT WOULD BE MY OPINION THAT THE WAY -- I HAVE GIVEN SOME FIELD ESTIMATES THAT I THINK ARE FAR MORE CONSERVATIVE. Q. ESTIMATES OF WHAT? A. OF ACREAGE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT I THINK IS IN MY FIELD DATA. AND DR. MARIN AND MYSELF HAVE RE-ANALYZED THE SETTLING RATE. IF WE EVEN BELIEVE WALKER'S MODEL AND WE GET A LOWER SETTLING RATE AND JUST HAVING LOOKED AT GHERINI'S STUFF -- I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO GO THROUGH IT, BUT -- IN DETAIL -- BUT THAT WOULD -- ALL OF THAT WOULD LEAD ME TO BELIEVE THAT THERE'S -- THAT THE SETTLING RATE IS, AT LEAST, SOMEWHAT IN QUESTION IN TERMS OF AN ACTUAL NUMBER; IT MAY BE A RANGE OF NUMBERS WHICH, AS A SCIENTIST, WOULD GIVE ME SOME PAUSE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT ONE COULD FEEL COMFORTABLE JUST DEVELOPING AN STA BASED ON THAT. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE STA'S WILL WORK AS A CONCEPT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, "WORK" IS A VERY -- I'M NOT SURE; YOU DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1459 HAVE TO DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN BY "WORK." Q. WELL, WHAT'S THE REASON FOR BUILDING AN STA? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. MR. BURGESS: SAME. A. WELL, I THINK THERE'S SEVERAL REASONS THEY -- THEY CLAIM. Q. OKAY. WHAT ARE THOSE REASONS? A. I THINK THE MAIN REASON IS TO BUILD THEM TO REDUCE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, PHOSPHOROUS TO FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION PRIOR TO ENTERING THE EPA. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT STA'S CAN DO THAT? A. NO. Q. OF ANY SIZE? A. OH, THE PROPER SIZE--- Q. THAT'S WHAT I MEAN. I DIDN'T MEAN THESE STA'S; I MEANT IN GENERAL -- STA'S IN THE ABSTRACT. CAN STA'S REDUCE THE PHOSPHOROUS TO FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. A. NOT AS DESIGNED, I DON'T THINK. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT THE STA'S WOULD DO SO BECAUSE, AS I -- WE WENT THROUGH THE NUMBER OF ISSUES, VEGETATION BEING ONE, AND THE SPECIES IN THERE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1460 I HAVE NOT -- IN MY EXPERIENCE WITH LOOKING AT WETLANDS WORLDWIDE, THERE ARE ALMOST -- THERE ARE VERY, VERY FEW WETLANDS THAT COME CLOSE TO PRODUCING FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION PHOSPHOROUS OUTPUT. AND IF THEY DO, THERE IS USUALLY SOME VERY SET REASONS. Q. WELL, YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH WETLANDS OF THIS SIZE, STA'S AFFECT WETLANDS FILTERING SYSTEMS OF THE SIZE PROPOSED FOR THE STA'S? A. NO. NO ONE IS. AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. NO ONE IS -- THIS IS A SCALE UNHEARD OF PRIOR TO ANY DEMONSTRATION PROJECTS THAT I'VE EVER SEEN. Q. WELL, THEN IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT NO WETLANDS TREATMENT SYSTEM IN THE WORLD HAS RESULTED IN FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION, IF NONE HAVE BEEN BUILT TO THIS SIZE? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT NONE THAT EXIST HAVE DONE SO. Q. OKAY. BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE -- THE WAY YOU SAID IT MADE IT SOUND LIKE NO STA COULD EVER GET TO FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION, AS IF SOME HAD BEEN BUILT THAT WOULD BE COMPARABLE IN SIZE AND THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO GET TO FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION. A. WELL, I'M -- I'M MORE CAUTIOUS AS A SCIENTIST. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1461 MY--- Q. THEN--- A. ---I'M NOT IN THE SHOW-ME STATE, BUT I WOULD -- I WOULD PROPOSE THAT THE ENR PROJECT TEST AND COMPLETE THE WORK ON SOME ASPECTS OF THIS SO THAT WE COULD DETERMINE -- I'M NOT CLOSING MY MIND AS TO WHETHER THEY WOULD OR WOULDN'T WORK. BUT I -- AS A SCIENTIST, I HAVE SOME UNCERTAINTIES AS TO WHETHER THEY WOULD WORK. Q. IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT YOUR BIGGEST QUARREL WITH THE STA'S IS THE SIZING; IS THAT RIGHT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, NO, I THINK -- I'M NOT SURE THE DESIGN IS -- IS THE CORRECT SPECIES AND HOW THEY'RE SET UP AND THE FLOW. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER ASPECTS. Q. WELL, TELL ME WHAT YOU FIND OBJECTIONABLE. ALL WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IS SETTLING RATES AND SIZING. YOU HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THESE OTHER THINGS. DO YOU HAVE OPINIONS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE IN THIS CASE? MR. BURGESS: I WOULD JUST A NOTE FOR THE RECORD, I THINK WE SPENT MORE THAN AN HOUR THIS AFTERNOON ON TRANSFERABILITY. MR. REID: UH-HUH (YES). DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1462 MR. GREEN: AND OTHER FACTORS BESIDES THOSE TWO. MR. REID: UH-HUH (YES). A. YES, AND I WOULD GO BACK TO THOSE. I MEAN, I THINK ONE OF THE FIRST ONES -- THAT I THINK WE JUST SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON -- WAS VEGETATION, AND I THINK I MENTIONED TO YOU THAT -- AND AS A TRAINED PLANT ECOLOGIST IN DEALING WITH ALSO PHYSIOLOGICAL PLANT ECOLOGY ASPECTS AND UPTAKE AND NUTRIENTS, WHICH IS MY SPECIALTY -- I CAN TELL YOU THAT CATTAILS ARE NOT A VERY EFFICIENT PHOSPHOROUS-REMOVAL PLANT, AND THEY -- THEY DON'T PROVIDE A HABITAT FOR MANY OTHER SPECIES. THE ALGAE THAT YOU MIGHT WANT OR SOME OTHER COMPONENTS THAT YOU COULD USE, THERE ARE SOME OTHER POSSIBILITIES; AND, SO, I HAVE RESERVATIONS IN TERMS OF JUST THAT COMPONENT ALONE. Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE SETTLING RATES? ANY OTHER OPINIONS THAT YOU HAVE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO TESTIFY TO? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, I MEAN, THERE MAY BE SOME OTHER ASPECTS, BUT I'M NOT--- Q. YOU DON'T INTEND TO CALCULATE -- AGAIN, FROM THIS POINT FORWARD, YOU DON'T INTEND TO CALCULATE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1463 SETTLING RATE AND PRESENT IT AS PART OF YOUR TESTIMONY? A. I DON'T THINK SO AT THIS TIME. I MEAN, I PROBABLY WILL WORK WITH SEVERAL OF THE MODELERS WHO ARE ON THIS AND PROVIDE MY INSIGHTS INTO WHAT THAT LUMP PARAMETER MEANS OR DOESN'T MEAN. AND, SO, IN ONE SENSE, I WILL BE WORKING SORT OF IN CONCERT WITH THOSE INDIVIDUALS. Q. YOU MENTIONED "LUMP." YOU MEAN THE TWENTY-SIX YEAR AVERAGE? A. NO. THE K FACTOR IS A ONE -- IT'S A ONE-PARAMETER MODEL--- Q. OH, OKAY. A. ---IT'S A LUMPED MODEL. IT TAKES EVERY COMPARTMENT IN THE WORLD AND LUMPS IT INTO ONE. Q. OKAY. AND YOU MAY COMMENT ON THAT, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CALCULATE A SETTLING RATE? A. I WILL PROBABLY WORK IN CONJUNCTION WITH DR. MARIN AND MAYBE OTHERS TO -- UTILIZING ANY DATA I HAVE NOW AND NEW DATA -- TO BASICALLY COME UP WITH A -- AND, ALSO, WITH THE FIELD DATA, I MAY -- WE MAY LOOK -- LOOK AT THOSE CORES AGAIN FOR SOME INHERENT ASPECTS TO DETERMINE THIS; SO WE HAVEN'T FINISHED THIS WORK. Q. NOW, THIS WORK THAT YOU -- MANY TIMES, AS I MENTIONED, THAT YOU AND DR. MARIN HAVE DONE TOGETHER, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1464 DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE MANNER IN WHICH HE CALCULATED SETTLEMENT RATE -- SETTLING RATE IS THE APPROPRIATE WAY TO CALCULATE SETTLING RATES? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, I THINK WHAT HE HAS SIMPLY DONE -- I'M NOT SURE IT'S THE -- IT'S NOT THE ONLY WAY, FOR SURE -- I BELIEVE THE ALTERNATE MODEL WE -- WE'VE PROPOSED, FROM WHICH WE CAN CALCULATE A SETTLING RATE, WE'RE GOING TO PROBABLY USE THE ALTERNATE MODEL AND CALCULATE A SETTLING RATE FROM THAT, WHICH WE CAN BACK-CALCULATE THE SETTLING RATE OUT FROM THE ALTERNATE MODEL. Q. WHAT ALTERNATE MODEL? A. THIS IS THE RECKHOW/SONG MODEL. Q. WELL, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT; BUT, FIRST OF ALL, MY QUESTION IS DO YOU BELIEVE DR. MARIN'S METHOD OF CALCULATING SETTLING RATES WAS APPROPRIATE SCIENTIFICALLY? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. DR. MARIN HAS SIMPLY TAKEN DR. WALKER'S MODEL AND TRIED TO SEE IF HE COULD COME UP WITH THE SAME NUMBERS AND THEN BASICALLY TEST THE DATA INPUTS TO IT. HE -- HE MAY HAVE OTHER WAYS. I HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM RECENTLY. HE IS CONTINUING TO REFINE HIS ASPECTS OF SETTLING RATES, SO I CAN'T SPEAK TO ALL THAT. RIGHT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1465 NOW, I MEAN, HE'S BASICALLY -- HE HASN'T VALIDATED OR OPINED WHETHER THAT'S THE ONLY APPROACH HE'S GOING TO USE. HE HASN'T TOLD ME THAT. HE JUST SIMPLY SAYS HE'S LOOKING--- Q. YOU HAVEN'T READ HIS DEPOSITION? A. SORRY? Q. YOU HAVEN'T READ HIS DEPOSITION THAT HE GAVE IN THIS CASE, HAVE YOU? A. NO. Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU SAID THAT YOU MAY BE USING DR. RECKHOW'S MODEL TO CALCULATE A SETTLING RATE; IS THAT CORRECT? A. I SAID WE COULD -- WE MAY ATTEMPT TO DO SO, YES. WE HAVE NOT DONE SO. Q. OKAY. AND SO THAT -- WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME IS THAT, IN FACT, IF I -- THE PAPER THAT DR. RECKHOW AND MR. QIAN PREPARED WOULD PERMIT ONE TO CALCULATE A SETTLING RATE USING THE MATERIAL IN THAT PAPER? A. THERE'S ENOUGH INFORMATION THERE WITH THE PROPER DATA SET ONE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO THAT, YES. MR. REID: I GUESS WE OUGHT TO QUIT NOW. MR. BURGESS: WHAT TIME TOMORROW, BEN? MR. REID: NINE, I GUESS. MR. BURGESS: OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1466 MR. REID: IS THAT ALL RIGHT WITH EVERYBODY? (AFFIRMATIVE RESPONSE.) (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MR. BURGESS: CAN WE STAY ON THE RECORD FOR A MOMENT, DID YOU WANT THESE DOCUMENTS? MR. REID: YEAH. MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I WOULD JUST LIKE TO STATE FOR THE RECORD THAT, THIS MORNING, I BROUGHT WITH ME SEVERAL DOCUMENTS THAT WE HAD REVIEWED IN CONNECTION WITH BEING RESPONSIVE TO THE NOTICE SUBMITTED BY THE DISTRICT AND BY THE UNITED STATES. THESE ARE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE IN DR. RICHARDSON'S POSSESSION, THAT I REVIEWED WITH HIM YESTERDAY, AND HE REFERRED TO DURING HIS TESTIMONY TODAY, AND WE'VE DETERMINED THAT THERE IS NOT AN APPLICABLE PRIVILEGE OR REASON FOR NOT PRODUCING THEM, SO WE'VE PRODUCED THEM TODAY. IN ADDITION, DR. RICHARDSON TOLD ME YESTERDAY THAT BESIDES THE RAW DATA THAT HAS BEEN PRODUCED RELATIVE TO HIS DOSING STUDY, HE HAS ADDITIONAL RAW DATA WHICH HAS NOT BEEN REVIEWED OR ANALYZED, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1467 THEREFORE, COULD NOT, AS HE SITS HERE TODAY, FORM THE BASIS FOR OPINION TESTIMONY HE COULD GIVE TODAY. HOWEVER, HE HAS SAID IT IS EXTREMELY LIKELY BETWEEN NOW AND THE TIME OF THE HEARING, AS HE CONTINUES TO REVIEW ALL OF HIS DATA, THAT HE WOULD REVIEW THAT DATA; SO WE ALSO CAN MAKE THAT DATA AVAILABLE FOR INSPECTION IF YOU WISH. -------------------------------------------------- (THEREUPON, THE DEPOSITION OF DR. RICHARDSON WAS RECESSED AT 5:04 P.M. TO BE RESUMED AT 9:00 A.M. ON MARCH 30, 1994.) -------------------------------------------------- THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON, WAS TAKEN ON THE 30TH DAY OF MARCH, 1994, BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 9:12 A.M. AT THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE EXECUTIVE BOARD ROOM, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, AND WAS REPORTED BY CAROL S. YOUNG, A NOTARY PUBLIC. COURT REPORTER: DR. RICHARDSON, I WOULD JUST REMIND YOU YOU'RE STILL UNDER OATH. EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES: Q. DR. RICHARDSON, WHEN WE QUIT YESTERDAY, WE HAD BEGUN TO TRY TO GET JUST A KIND OF A ROUGH LIST OF YOUR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1468 OPINIONS THAT YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR PURPOSES OF TESTIFYING IN THE HEARING IN THIS MATTER; AND YOU HAD GIVEN ME ONE OPINION RELATING TO CATTAILS AND WE TALKED ABOUT A NUMBER OF YOUR STUDIES, AND SO FORTH, AND YOUR VIEWS ABOUT CATTAILS. SO, NOW I'D LIKE TO PICK THAT UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF AND GET YOUR OTHER OPINIONS. MR. BURGESS: OKAY. I JUST WANT TO -- IF I CAN HAVE MAYBE A CONTINUING OBJECTION TO THIS TYPE OF QUESTION. I THINK THAT DR. RICHARDSON HAS AUTHORED NUMEROUS ARTICLES, PAPERS, AND ANNUAL REPORTS WHICH, IF HE HAD THEM IN FRONT OF HIM, WOULD GIVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THE TYPE OF EXPERIMENTS THAT HE'S DONE AND THE DATA THAT HE'S REVIEWED AND OPINIONS HE MAY HAVE REACHED AS A RESULT OF REVIEWING THAT. AND I JUST THINK THAT ASKING HIM WHAT OPINIONS HE HAS IS OVER BROAD AND AMBIGUOUS. MR. REID: OKAY. WELL, LET ME JUST SAY, HE'S CERTAINLY WELCOME TO USE ANY KIND OF PAPER HE WANTS; IF HE'S MADE A LIST FOR YOU OF HIS OPINIONS THAT HE'S GOING TO TESTIFY TO AT TRIAL. OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S QUITE A NUMBER OF WORDS THAT DR. RICHARDSON HAS AUTHORED. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1469 AND IF YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT HIS OPINIONS ARE EVERYTHING HE'S EVER WRITTEN, I THINK THAT'S TOO BROAD. SO, I'M JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT IF HE HAS -- IF HE KNOWS WHAT OPINIONS HE -- OF ALL OF HIS MANY OPINIONS, WHICH ONES HE'S PLANNING TO TESTIFY TO AT TRIAL AND THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT. MR. BURGESS: I THINK HE'LL TESTIFY AT TRIAL IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS FROM THE LAWYERS. MR. REID: WELL, ARE YOU TELLING ME I'M NOT ENTITLED TO ASK HIM WHAT HIS OPINIONS ARE--- MR. BURGESS: NO--- MR. REID: ---THAT I HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL YOU ASK THE QUESTIONS AT TRIAL TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY ARE? MR. BURGESS: YOU CAN CERTAINLY ASK HIM WHAT IT IS--- MR. REID: OKAY. MR. BURGESS: ---BUT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CONFINE HIM TO A LIST JUST BASICALLY BY ASKING HIM TO "TELL ME YOUR OPINIONS." MR. REID: WELL, I THINK I CAN SO, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1470 THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE. Q. (BY MR. REID) LET'S CONTINUE THEN, GIVE ME YOUR NEXT OPINION. A. WELL, LET ME SAY THAT I HAVE NOT PREPARED A FORMAL LIST, AND NOR HAVE I SAT DOWN AND THOUGHT OF IT AS A LIST, PER SE, SO -- AND SINCE I DON'T HAVE ANY DOCUMENTS IN FRONT OF ME, AS I HAD MENTIONED BRIEFLY YESTERDAY, WHAT WE HAD TRIED TO OUTLINE WAS SOME EXPERIMENTS AND HOW THOSE HAD COME TO BEAR ON CERTAIN TOPICS. AND SO, YEAH, YOU KNOW, IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL IF I HAD MY ANNUAL REPORTS IN FRONT OF ME AND WE COULD GO THROUGH THAT. Q. WE'LL CERTAINLY GET TO THOSE. A. WELL, IF I HAD THOSE, THEN I COULD -- IT MIGHT REFRESH MY MEMORY ON SOME THINGS. Q. WELL, IF YOU WANT TO GET THEM, THAT'S FINE, FEEL FREE. YOU CAN HAVE ANYTHING -- YOU CAN LOOK AT ANYTHING YOU WANT TO LOOK AT. A. WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S FINE. WE CAN DO IT FROM MY MEMORY IF YOU WANT TO DO SOME THINGS. I'M SAYING -- I'M GOING THROUGH -- I THINK I WENT THROUGH YESTERDAY THE EXPERIMENTS, WHICH ARE SOME OF THE ONLY EXPERIMENTS THAT I KNOW THAT HAVE BEEN CARRIED OUT AS EXPERIMENTS; THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF OBSERVATIONS. SO, I THINK I DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1471 WENT THROUGH THE FERTILIZER EXPERIMENT IN BRIEF, AND PULLED SOME OPINIONS FROM THAT; AND WENT THROUGH THE DISTURBANCE HYDROLOGY EXPERIMENT. THE NEXT EXPERIMENT, PER SE, WHICH I WOULD -- ALTHOUGH IT'S PRELIMINARY AND TALKING ABOUT SOME EVIDENCE FROM THAT, IT'S -- IT HASN'T BEEN ANALYZED -- WOULD BE THE DOSING EXPERIMENT, WHICH I'M -- WOULD DRAW ON CERTAIN ASPECTS OF IT. IT'S ONLY IN ITS EARLIEST STAGES, BUT THAT WOULD BE ONE. Q. WELL, DO YOU HAVE OPINIONS THAT YOU'RE PREPARED TO TESTIFY TO, BASED UPON YOUR FINDINGS IN YOUR DOSING STUDY? A. WELL, I HAVE SOME PRELIMINARY--- Q. TELL ME WHAT THOSE ARE, THEN. A. WELL, I CAN TELL YOU AFTER ONE YEAR, AS IT RELATES THE CATTAIL ISSUE, AFTER ADDING PHOSPHORUS AT A 150, 75, 50, 30, WITH THE CONTROL THAT AT LEAST THERE ARE NO CATTAILS IN THE CHANNELS, AT LEAST THIS PERIOD. I CAN'T--- Q. WELL, IS THAT AN OPINION OR IS THAT AN OBSERVATION? A. WELL, IT'S AN OBSERVATION. Q. OKAY. IS THERE -- DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION THAT YOU WILL DRAW OFF BASED UPON THAT OBSERVATION? A. WELL, IT WOULD APPEAR, AT LEAST FROM DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1472 THAT POINT OF VIEW, THEN IN THE DOSING STUDY WITH THOSE CONCENTRATIONS BEING ADDED TO THOSE CHANNELS, THAT THERE ARE NO CATTAILS IN THAT. AND WE ALSO OBSERVED THAT AT THE 150 CHANNEL, THAT, IN FACT, THE PERIPHYTON MAT HAS DISAPPEARED AND BROKEN UP. Q. ALL RIGHT, LET'S -- THE DOSING STUDY IS DONE WHERE? A. AT THE SOUTHERN END OF WCA-2A. Q. AND WHERE PARTIC -- IS IT DONE IN CANALS OR IS IT DONE IN--- A. IT'S DONE IN CHANNELS. Q. I'M SORRY, I SAID CANALS, I MEANT TO SAY CHANNELS. AND DID YOU SELECT THESE CHANNELS? A. YES. Q. WERE THEY DE-WATERED? A. WERE THEY DE-WATERED--- Q. YEAH. A. ---THEY'RE NATURAL HYDROPERIODS, WHATEVER THE HYDROPERIOD IS FOR THE SYSTEM. Q. YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO THEM? A. INSIDE THE CHANNELS, NO. THEY'RE WALLED, BUT THEY MAINTAIN NATURAL HYDROLOGY. Q. AND YOU APPLIED PHOSPHORUS? A. CORRECT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1473 Q. AND GIVE ME THOSE LEVELS AGAIN? A. 150 PARTS PER BILLION, 75 PARTS PER BILLION, 50 PARTS PER BILLION, 30 PARTS PER BILLION, AND CONTROLLED, REPLICATED TWO DIFFERENT SITES, ALSO WITH CHANNELS THAT ARE UNWALLED CONTROLS. Q. IN YOUR CONTROLLED CHANNEL, WHAT WOULD THAT BE -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. TWO SETS OF CONTROLS. Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? A. WELL, THERE'S ONE THAT HAS NO WALLS TO LOOK AT THE WALL EFFECT, AND IT'S OPEN FLOW. AND THE SECOND SET IS SIMPLY HAS WATER ADDED TO IT, BACKGROUND WATER. Q. AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS WAS IN THE BACKGROUND WATER? A. I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT OUR DOCUMENTS, BUT I BELIEVE THE BACKGROUND LEVEL AVERAGES SOMEWHERE AROUND 10 PLUS OR MINUS 7, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT MAYBE. Q. PARTS PER BILLION? A. PARTS -- ALL PARTS PER BILLION. I COULD BE OFF ON THAT, I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING IN FRONT OF ME TO REMEMBER, BUT IT'S SOMEWHERE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. Q. AND YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR HOW LONG? A. DOSING HAS BEEN GOING ON SLIGHTLY MORE THAN ONE YEAR. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1474 Q. AND WHAT'S YOUR FINDING? WHAT ARE YOUR FINDINGS AT THIS POINT -- NOT YOUR OPINIONS -- BUT YOUR ACTUAL OBSERVATIONS OR FINDINGS? A. WELL, AS I SAID, THEY ARE IN THE PRELIMINARY STAGE, WE'RE JUST ANALYZING A LOT OF THE DATA NOW, SO, I -- WE'RE WORKING UP -- BUT, AS I SAID, WE HAVE NOT HAD ANY INVASION OF CATTAILS, THAT'S ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION, IN ANY OF THOSE CHANNELS. WE HAVE LOST THE PERIPHYTON MAT AT THE 150 CHANNELS. Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE 150 CHANNELS? A. WHERE WE HAVE ADDED 150--- Q. I'M SORRY, WITH REFERENCE TO YOUR PARTS PER BILLION, I GOT -- I UNDERSTAND IT NOW -- THE QUESTION AND THEN THE ANSWER. WHAT'S THE SIGNIFICANCE OF LOSING THE PERIPHYTON MAT? A. WELL, WE'RE NOT SURE YET. WE DO FIND --DR. JAN STEVENSON WHO WORKS WITH ME ON THIS, FROM LOUISVILLE, HAS NOTED THAT THE CALCAREOUS MAT HAS BROKEN DOWN, BUT WE STILL HAVE MANY OF THE SAME ALGAE SPECIES THERE, BUT I HAVEN'T SEE HIS RESULTS YET FROM THIS. HE'S LOOKING AT VARIOUS ASPECTS OF PRODUCTIVITY AND SETTLING AND SO FORTH. BUT, ESSENTIALLY, IT'S VISIBLY DIFFERENT, WE CAN -- I CAN SAY THAT. Q. PRODUCTIVITY OF THE ALGAE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1475 A. RIGHT. Q. AND SETTLING OF WHAT? A. ALGAE -- ALGAL MATERIAL. Q. OKAY. AND TELL ME HIS NAME AGAIN. A. DR. JAN STEVENSON. Q. STEVENSON? A. STEVENSON. Q. AT LOUISVILLE, DID YOU SAY? A. RIGHT. Q. AND IS HE STUDYING THE PERIPHYTON ISSUE? A. HE'S STUDYING PERIPHYTON, AMONG OTHER THINGS. HE'S LOOKING AT SOME BACTERIAL AND FUNGI COMPONENTS. BUT HE IS THE PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR, PRIMARILY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PERIPHYTON RESPONSE, ALGAL RESPONSE. Q. WAS THERE SAWGRASS IN THIS AREA WHEN YOU STARTED? A. NO, THIS AREA WAS A SLOUGH. Q. COMPLETELY A SLOUGH? A. SLOUGH. Q. OKAY. AND THERE -- YOU SAY THERE'S BEEN NO CATTAIL INVASION AT THIS POINT? A. NOT OF THE CHANNELS, NO. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THESE CHANNELS PRIOR TO DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1476 YOUR -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. DID YOU CHECK THE WATER IN THE CHANNELS BEFORE YOU STARTED YOUR DOSING STUDY? A. WE CALIBRATED THAT SITE FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS