STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF ) FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural ) Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038 ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040 ) and ) ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) )________________________ and ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) OF and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) )DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON Petitioners, )________________________ ) vs. ) ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an Agency of the State ) of Florida, ) ) Respondent, ) ) and ) ) THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) FLORIDA, THE FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, THE ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) THE FLORIDA AUDUBON SOCIETY, and ) THE SIERRA CLUB, ) Respondent-Intervenors. ) ___________________________________) AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA MARCH 29, 1994 - APRIL 1, 1994 REPORTED BY: CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1171 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PETITIONERS: SUGARCANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE MR. RICK J. BURGESS OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC. EARL, BLANK, KAVANAUGH AND WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC. & STOTTS, P.A. MR. WILLIAM H. GREEN ONE BISCAYNE TOWER HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS SUITE 3636 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET TWO SOUTH BISCAYNE BLVD. POST OFFICE BOX 6526 MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314 TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000 TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500 FOR RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: FOR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MR. MICHAEL W. REED MANAGEMENT DISTRICT: ASSISTANT CHIEF MR. R. BENJAMINE REID U.S. DEPT. OF JUSTICE POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH ENVIRONMENTAL AND NATURAL & KAUFMAN, LTD. RESOURCES DIVISION 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL GENERAL LITIGATION SECTION CENTER POST OFFICE BOX 663 100 S.E. SECOND STREET WASHINGTON, D.C. 20044-0663 MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TELEPHONE: (202) 272-6080 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050 FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY: MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN KING, WALKER, LAMBE & CRABTREE 3708 MAYFAIR STREET POST OFFICE BOX 51549 DURHAM, N.C. 27717 TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411 ALSO PRESENT: DR. MARK D. MAFFEI DR. RONALD D. JONES DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1172 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X DEPONENT-DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON - 3/29-4/1/94 EXAMINATION: PAGES BY MR. BENJAMINE REID 1173 BY MR. MICHAEL REED 1835 BY MR. BENJAMINE REID 1957 BY MR. WILLIAM GREEN 2012 BY MR. RICK BURGESS 2013 BY MR. BENJAMINE REID 2015 ------------------------------------------------------- E X H I B I T S I N D E X NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED (EXHIBITS NUMBER #1 - #26 WERE MARKED DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON, MARCH 29, 1994 THROUGH APRIL 1, 1994, DURHAM, N.C.) ------------------------------------------------------- SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT (VOLUME III) 2017 CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER (VOLUME III) 2018 DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1173 STIPULATIONS ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, ENVIRONMENTAL AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION, GENERAL LITIGATION SECTION, WASHINGTON, D.C., THE CROSS DEPOSITION OF DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 9:00 A.M. ON MARCH 29, 1994, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE EXECUTIVE BOARD ROOM, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE CAROL S. YOUNG, A NOTARY PUBLIC. THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED. - - - - - - - - - - - WHEREUPON, CURTIS J. RICHARDSON, Ph.D., HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: EXAMINATION BY MR. REID: Q. STATE YOUR NAME AND YOUR ADDRESS, PLEASE, SIR. A. CURTIS JOHN RICHARDSON, 717 ANDERSON STREET IN DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA. Q. AND BY WHOM ARE YOU EMPLOYED? A. DUKE UNIVERSITY. Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR POSITION AT DUKE UNIVERSITY? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1174 A. I'M A PROFESSOR OF RESOURCE ECOLOGY, AND DIRECTOR OF THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER. Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR ACADEMIC STANDING AT DUKE? A. A PROFESSOR. Q. AND WITH TENURE? A. WITH TENURE. Q. AT THE PRESENT TIME, ON A DAILY BASIS, OR WEEKLY OR MONTHLY, CAN YOU GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT YOUR ACTIVITY WOULD BE? A. WHAT MY ACTIVITY WOULD BE? I TEACH -- WELL, I TEACH PART-TIME, AS PART OF MY APPOINTMENT, GRADUATE -- WE'RE A GRADUATE SCHOOL ONLY, SO I TEACH SOME GRADUATE COURSES. IT DEPENDS ON THE SEMESTER. FOR EXAMPLE, THIS SEMESTER, I AM TEACHING A SEMINAR, ADVANCED STUDIES IN WETLANDS ECOLOGY AND MANAGEMENT. I DIRECT THE CENTER'S -- WETLAND CENTER'S DAILY ACTIVITIES, WHICH INCLUDES A STAFF OF APPROXIMATELY TWENTY PEOPLE. AND GRADUATE STUDENTS -- I MEET WITH GRADUATE STUDENTS ON A DAILY BASIS. I SPEND A PORTION OF MY TIME EACH WEEK GOING THROUGH ADMINISTRATIVE DOCUMENTS AND I ALSO SIT ON THE UNIVERSITY-WIDE PROMOTION AND TENURE COMMITTEE FOR THE UNIVERSITY SO THAT I, ALONG WITH ELEVEN OTHER INDIVIDUALS, DETERMINE WHO IS PROMOTED AND WHO IS NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1175 AT THE UNIVERSITY. AND I SPEND A CERTAIN FRACTION OF MY TIME WRITING, DOING RESEARCH, ANALYZING DATA, REVIEWING DOCUMENTS. Q. SO, THIS SEMESTER, YOU'RE TEACHING ONE COURSE, A SEMINAR? A. ONE SEMINAR. Q. AND HOW MANY STUDENTS WOULD BE IN THAT? A. FIFTEEN. Q. AND WHAT DID YOU TEACH LAST SEMESTER? A. I TAUGHT APPLIED ECOLOGY AND ECOSYSTEM MANAGEMENT. Q. WAS THAT A GRADUATE SEMINAR, AS WELL? A. NO, THAT WAS A GRADUATE COURSE. Q. A COURSE. OKAY. IS IT -- HAS YOUR SCHEDULE BEEN SUCH THAT YOU'VE GENERALLY TAUGHT ABOUT ONE COURSE PER SEMESTER IN RECENT TIMES? A. IT DEPENDS. I'D SAY ONE COURSE, OR A SEMINAR. I HAVE SEMESTERS OFF; AS THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER, I HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY. I HAVE PEOPLE IN MY CENTER WHO CAN COVER COURSES, DEPENDING UPON WHETHER I'M WRITING GRANTS OR DOING THINGS. Q. DO YOU OFFICIALLY SUPERVISE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF GRADUATE STUDENTS AT ANY ONE TIME? A. I HAVE NO DESIGNATED NUMBER, BUT I DO HAVE A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1176 NUMBER OF GRADUATE STUDENTS THAT I SUPERVISE. Q. ARE YOU ALWAYS INVOLVED IN SUPERVISING GRADUATE STUDENTS? A. YES. Q. OKAY. HOW MANY WOULD YOU TYPICALLY SUPERVISE? A. MASTER'S STUDENTS, SEVEN OR EIGHT MASTER'S STUDENTS; AND Ph.D. STUDENTS, IT VARIES, TWO TO FIVE. Q. AND, FOR INSTANCE, RIGHT NOW, WHAT DO YOU HAVE; HOW MANY? A. WELL, I HAVE THREE MASTER'S STUDENTS WHO ARE GRADUATING THIS SPRING; AND, I THINK, FOUR OTHERS THAT I AM ADVISING WHO ARE IN THE FIRST YEAR; AND I HAVE THREE Ph.D. STUDENTS THAT I'M ACTIVELY WORKING WITH. Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR COURSE THAT YOU'RE TEACHING -- YOUR SEMINAR, I'M SORRY, THIS SEMESTER, ARE THERE COURSE MATERIALS THAT YOU USE THAT ARE PUBLISHED? A. COURSE MATERIALS THAT ARE USED THAT I PUBLISHED. DO YOU MEAN DO I -- THAT I PERSONALLY--- Q. NO, THAT ARE PUBLISHED, IN OTHER WORDS, AS OPPOSED TO HANDOUTS THAT YOU MIGHT GIVE. A. I USE BOTH. I USE ARTICLES AND I USE HANDOUTS. Q. OKAY. IS THERE A BOOK? A. NO. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1177 Q. ARE YOU COVERING ANY PORTION IN THIS COURSE THIS SEMESTER -- I KEEP CALLING IT A COURSE. I UNDERSTAND YOU -- IT'S A SEMINAR -- ARE YOU COVERING ANYTHING RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES OR SIMILAR ECOSYSTEMS? A. WE HAD ONE LECTURE ON THE EVERGLADES, AND THE WHOLE COURSE IS ON WETLANDS, SO THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WETLANDS THAT WOULD HAVE SOME SIMILAR CHARACTERISTICS. Q. DID YOU GIVE THAT LECTURE, OR DID SOMEONE ELSE COME IN AND GIVE THAT LECTURE? A. I GAVE THAT LECTURE. Q. AND GIVE ME JUST AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT THAT LECTURE WAS ABOUT. A. I BASICALLY, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT -- IT WAS SEVERAL MONTHS AGO -- BUT THE FIRST PART OF THE LECTURE WAS AN OVERVIEW OF THE ECOLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES, SORT OF THE LANDSCAPE VIEW OF THE EVERGLADES; SOME OF THE CONTROLLING FACTORS THAT MAKE UP THE ECOLOGY OF THE EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEMS AND HOW THEY -- HOW THE EVERGLADES SUCCESSION IS DESCRIBED; WHAT FEATURES, GEOLOGIC AND ECOLOGICAL FEATURES COMPRISE THE EVERGLADES. THAT WAS THE FIRST PART OF IT. THE SECOND PART WAS RELATED TO OUR STUDIES, PRETTY MUCH, THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING IN THE EVERGLADES. AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1178 THAT WAS AN OVERVIEW OF THE AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF, THE HYDROLOGIC CHANGES IN THE EVERGLADES, A LITTLE BIT ON CLIMATE. WE TALKED -- WE TALKED A BIT ABOUT PHOSPHORUS STORAGE AND SAMPLING TECHNIQUES, DETERMINED THAT. AND THEN WE TALKED ABOUT SOME MANAGEMENT SCENARIOS FOR THE EVERGLADES, AND SOME OUTCOME OF THAT. AND THEN I BELIEVE THAT'S ABOUT IT. Q. WHAT MANAGEMENT -- TELL ME THE MANAGEMENT SCENARIOS YOU DISCUSSED. A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE I EXACTLY REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THEM, BUT I BELIEVE WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT ARE THE MAJOR PROBLEMS RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES, AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE HYDROLOGY, AND THE HYDROLOGIC BUDGET. WE DISCUSSED WHAT WE APPROXIMATED TO BE A PROBLEM OF THE DISCHARGE OF WATER PRIMARILY FROM THE LAKE OKEECHOBEE REGION, WHERE APPROXIMATELY FIFTY PERCENT OF IT'S MOVE TO THE ATLANTIC OCEAN OR THE GULF. WE SHOWED A SLIDE OF THAT, SHOWING THE WATER, PARTIAL WATER BUDGET; HOW MUCH WATER IS MOVING DOWNWARDS THROUGH THE EAA, WCA'S, DOWN INTO THE PARK; AND DISCUSSED THE NEED FOR CHANGES IN THE -- IN THE CLASS, WE GOT INTO A DISCUSSION ON RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES AND WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO RESTORE THE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1179 EVERGLADES TO SOME SEMBLANCE, ALBEIT, IT WOULD NOT BE RESTORED BACK TO WHAT IT WAS. THEN WE BASICALLY DISCUSSED WHAT IT WOULD TAKE AND WHAT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WERE RELATED TO THAT. WE -- THAT WAS ONE OF THE MAJOR DISCUSSIONS. WE ALSO DISCUSSED THE PHOSPHORUS ISSUE, IN TERMS OF IT, WE ALSO DISCUSSED THE CATTAIL ISSUE; AND WE TALKED ABOUT NUISANCE SPECIES AND A FEW THINGS LIKE THAT AND WHAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN THERE. Q. IS THERE -- IS THIS LECTURE WRITTEN, OR IS THERE AN OUTLINE OF THIS LECTURE? A. NO, THIS IS FOR A SERIES OF SLIDES THAT -- OF WHICH I HAVE, I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T COUNT, FIFTEEN HUNDRED, TWO THOUSAND SLIDES ON THE EVERGLADES, AND I JUST PULL THEM OUT OF THE BOOK AND USE THEM AS I NEED THEM. Q. WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES, YOU SAID -- YOU MADE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN -- TO ITS, I THINK, ORIGINAL CONDITION OR SOME SEMBLANCE OF ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION. IN YOUR MIND, WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND TO BE THE RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES? WHAT DOES THAT ENTAIL? A. WELL, IT PROBABLY ENTAILS A LOT OF THINGS TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I THINK -- I BELIEVE IN THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1180 LECTURE I DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT THE PROBLEM WITH RESTORATION OF ANY SYSTEM WAS THAT, QUITE OFTEN, IF IT'S A SMALL SCALE SYSTEM, YOU WANT TO HAVE A REFERENCE TO GO BACK TO. AND THE EVERGLADES HAVE BEEN SO HIGHLY ALTERED, THAT IT'S DIFFICULT TO FIND WHAT THE REFERENCE SYSTEM SHOULD BE, AND--- Q. WOULD THAT BE -- LET ME JUST INTERRUPT YOU WHILE I'M THINKING ABOUT IT. WOULD THAT BE, FOR INSTANCE, SAYING WE'RE GOING TO RETURN IT TO THE WAY IT WAS IN 1853, OR THE WAY IT WAS PRE-PROJECT, OR--- A. NO, THE WAY I VIEW RESTORATION, AS I SAID, ONCE -- THERE ARE DIFFERENT -- DIFFERENT WAYS TO LOOK AT RESTORATION. AS AN ECOLOGIST, I TALK PRIMARILY TO MY STUDENTS ABOUT FUNCTIONS, ECOSYSTEM FUNCTIONS, AND TRYING TO RESTORE AND MAINTAIN AS MANY OF THOSE FUNCTIONS AS POSSIBLE. AND I THINK THE CONCEPT IN RETURNING IT BACK TO WHAT IT WAS IN 1800 IS A BIT NAIVE, FOR MANY REASONS WHICH--- Q. WELL, HAVE YOU HEARD ANYBODY SAY THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO? A. I'VE HAD PEOPLE TELL ME THAT. Q. OKAY. WHO, PARTICULARLY? A. JOE PODSGAR, OR WHATEVER HIS NAME IS, PODGOR. Q. OH, OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1181 A. OTHER PEOPLE -- THAT WAS -- I'VE HEARD SOME OF THE EXTREME GREEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THAT. Q. THIS HAS BEEN FROM, SHALL WE SAY, THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY? A. YES. Q. IS THAT A FAIR WAY TO PUT IT? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU HEARD ANYBODY, SHALL WE SAY, AN AUTHORITY, WHO HAS SUGGESTED IT SHOULD BE RETURNED TO THE 1853 CONDITION? A. NO. Q. OKAY, YOU WERE TALKING -- I INTERRUPTED YOU. YOU WERE TELLING ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FUNCTIONS. A. YEAH, THE WAY I LOOK AT RESTORATION IS TRY TO DETERMINE THE KEY FUNCTIONS FOR AN ECOSYSTEM. AND THESE MIGHT INCLUDE PRODUCTIVITY AND DECOMPOSITION, COMMUNITY HABITAT STRUCTURE, AND SOME ASPECT OF BIOGEOCHEMICAL CYCLING, AND BASICALLY TRY TO LOOK AT THE MAJOR CONTROLLING FACTOR FOR WETLANDS THAT CONTROLS THESE; AND THAT, OF COURSE, IS -- IN ALL WETLAND SYSTEMS -- IS HYDROLOGY, AND ANY OTHER FACTORS THAT MIGHT BE BROUGHT TO BEAR ON THAT. SO, ESSENTIALLY, WE LOOK AT WHAT THE FUNCTIONAL GOALS ARE AND THEN TRY TO REMOVE BACK TO THAT, SOMEWHERE NEAR THAT STATE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1182 Q. ALL RIGHT, IN THE -- SPECIFICALLY IN THIS CASE, ARE YOU ULTIMATELY GOING TO BE EXPRESSING OPINIONS IN THIS CONTEXT, THAT IS, WHAT FUNCTIONS SHOULD BE RESTORED WITH REGARD TO THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, I'LL PROBABLY GIVE SOME OPINIONS, YES, IN TERMS OF WHAT I THINK ARE SOME GOALS THAT MIGHT BE LOOKED AT, AND ALSO SOME RESEARCH THAT PROBABLY SHOULD BE DONE TO DESCRIBE THAT. Q. IS ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF YOUR ONGOING PROJECT TO ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE THE BEST WAY TO RESTORE THE EVERGLADES? A. THAT'S THE LONG-TERM GOAL, IS ESSENTIALLY TO OBTAIN ENOUGH SCIENTIFIC DATA TO TRY TO COME UP WITH SOME ANSWERS TOWARDS RESTORATION OF THE EVERGLADES, RATHER THAN JUST LOOK AT OBSERVATION. Q. AT THIS POINT, DO YOU HAVE -- STRIKE THAT. AT THIS POINT, ARE YOU ABLE TO TESTIFY TO MORE THAN POSSIBILITIES THAT WOULD REQUIRE ADDITIONAL RESEARCH IN THAT CONTEXT? A. WELL, I THINK WE HAVE, YES, AFTER A FEW YEARS, I THINK WE HAVE SOME INSIGHTS AS TO WHAT--- Q. ARE THESE -- IS IT FAIR FOR ME TO THINK OF THESE IN TERMS OF THESE FUNCTIONS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1183 A. IN A GENERAL CONTEXT. I CAN'T SAY WE FOCUSED ALL OUR RESEARCH IN EVERY ONE OF THOSE FUNCTIONS--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT WE HAVE -- WE HAVE LOOKED AT THAT. OUR PRIMARY OBJECTIVE OF THAT -- OF OUR RESEARCH PROJECT WAS STATED VERY CLEARLY IN ALL -- IN THE BEGINNING OF ALL OF OUR ANNUAL REPORTS, IS TO LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF NUTRIENTS AND HYDROPERIOD ON THE EVERGLADES COMMUNITIES. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME THE FUNCTIONS THAT ARE -- THAT YOU'VE ALREADY CONSIDERED, AND YOU FEEL YOU HAVE ADEQUATE BASIS FOR SAYING, THESE ARE THE FUNCTIONS THAT I THINK WE NEED TO RESTORE, IF WE'RE GOING TO ADOPT THE RICHARDSON VERSION OF THE RESTORED EVERGLADES? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE THERE'S A RICHARDSON VERSION. I THINK OUR--- Q. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, NOT EXACTLY, I MEAN. Q. WELL, YOU'RE HERE, AND YOU'RE THE EXPERT, AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE GIVING OPINIONS, SO I ASSUME THEY'RE YOUR OPINIONS; THAT YOU PERSONALLY HOLD THESE OPINIONS. SO, MY QUESTION IS, ASSUMING THAT SOMEBODY DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO ADOPT YOUR VIEW OF EVERGLADES RESTORATION DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1184 -- YOU'VE TOLD ME THAT YOU THINK WE SHOULD MAKE REFERENCE TO CERTAIN FUNCTIONS, AND SO I WANT TO KNOW, GIVEN THAT VIEW, OR WITHIN THAT VIEW, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THOSE FUNCTIONS WOULD BE. AND I'D LIKE, FIRST, TO TALK ABOUT THE ONES THAT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE SAYING YOU'VE ALREADY STUDIED, AND YOU -- THESE ARE THE ONES. A. WELL, THE FIRST ONE WE TRIED TO LOOK AT WAS, AS I SAY, COMMUNITY HABITAT. WE TRIED TO LOOK AT THOSE, AND LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF HYDROLOGY AND NUTRIENTS ON THIS. AND IT WAS -- IT WAS PRIMARILY TO FOCUS ON WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, PHOSPHORUS, NUTRIENTS OR HYDROPERIOD SPECIFICALLY RESULTED IN A CHANGE IN THE HABITAT. PRIMARILY THERE, THE HYPOTHESIS WAS THAT INCREASE IN NUTRIENTS RESULTED IN AN INVASION OF CATTAIL, LET'S SAY. THAT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST STUDIES WE UNDERTOOK. THAT WAS OUR FERTILIZER STUDY THAT WE DID. Q. SO, IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU'RE MORE COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT THESE KINDS OF OPINIONS IN THE SAME MANNER IN WHICH THEY'RE DISCUSSED IN YOUR ANNUAL REPORTS; THAT IS, GOING THROUGH YOUR VARIOUS STUDIES, AND EACH STUDY WOULD HAVE A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND YOU COULD TELL ME WHETHER YOU FINISHED IT OR NOT, AND WHETHER YOUR PURPOSE HAS BEEN ACHIEVED. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1185 A. WELL, I THINK IN THAT CONTEXT, YES. I MEAN, IN TERMS OF FORMULATING AN OVERALL RESTORATION GOAL. IT WAS AN ONGOING THING, AND I'M NOT -- I THINK WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO LEAD SOME THINGS IN THE RIGHT WAY. I MEAN, VERY CLEARLY, FROM MY ANALYSIS OF THE DISTRICT'S DATA, LOOKING AT THE AREA, FLYING OVER IT, SAMPLING FOR FIVE YEARS, TAKING, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF TRANSECTS AND SOIL SAMPLES AND SO FORTH, AND LOOKING AT THE SPECIES THERE, AND THEN OVERLAYING THAT WITH ACTUAL EXPERIMENTS, I MEAN, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT WHAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING, AND WHAT I'VE SAID ALL -- WHAT I THOUGHT WAS THE CASE ALL ALONG, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT HYDROPERIOD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN CONTROLLING THE EVERGLADES. AND THE LACK OF WATER, FROM TWO -- FOR TWO REASONS, OR SEVERAL REASONS, HAS BEEN A DRAMATIC STRESSOR ON THE EVERGLADES SYSTEM, ALBEIT, THE EVERGLADES IS A VERY STRESSED SYSTEM WHEN IT'S UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS. IT'S A FAIRLY HARSH ENVIRONMENT TO TRY TO SURVIVE IN, IF YOU'RE AN ORGANISM. Q. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE MORE ABOUT YOUR POINT OF REFERENCE, AS YOU CALLED IT, WITH REGARD TO RESTORATION. CAN YOU TELL ME TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE EVERGLADES SHOULD BE RESTORED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1186 A. TO WHAT THEY SHOULD BE RESTORED? Q. YEAH, TO WHAT SHOULD -- YOU'VE TOLD ME YOU DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BE RESTORED TO THE CONDITION THEY WERE IN, IN 1853, SO WE'VE -- THAT'S CLEAR. A. WELL, I DON'T -- I DIDN'T SAY THAT THEY SHOULDN'T BE. I SAID, I DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE. Q. FAIR ENOUGH. SO, I'M TRYING TO GET A--- A. BETTER FEEL? Q. ---I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WOULD -- HOW YOU WOULD DESCRIBE THAT POINT, AT WHICH YOU WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH RESTORATION. AND I THOUGHT YOU TOLD ME THAT IT'S -- ONE WAY TO DESCRIBE THIS WAS WITH REFERENCE TO FUNCTIONS. SO, I WAS KIND OF ASKING--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. A. SURE. Q. I'M NOT SURE THAT'S BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT IT. A. WELL, IT -- YOU KNOW, WE COULD DO IT THAT WAY. I HAVEN'T, AT THIS MOMENT, COMPILED ALL THE PIECES IN THAT PARTICULAR FRAMEWORK, BUT THAT'S SOME OF THE ASPECTS THAT WE HAVE. I MEAN, MY -- THE RESTORATION GOAL THAT I SEE, IS TO, AS I SAID, YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE A -- THOSE FUNCTIONS WOULD GIVE YOU SOME IDEA. IN OTHER WORDS, IF, LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1187 SAWGRASS PRODUCTIVITY, OR THEIR STAND DENSITY OR WHATEVER, DISAPPEARED OR WAS VERY, VERY LOW, COMPARED TO WHAT YOU CONSIDER A REFERENCE BASE -- YOU COULD FIND SOME SITES THAT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED REPRESENTATIVE -- THEN, IN FACT, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD COMPARE THAT TO THE REGIONS THAT WERE CONSIDERED THE REFERENCE AND DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THEY'VE REACHED THAT COMPONENT. YOU COULD LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, MACROINVERTEBRATE DENSITIES. YOU COULD LOOK AT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT COMPONENTS AND TRY TO DETERMINE THESE. Q. AND TO DO THAT, YOU'D HAVE TO FIND SOME BASELINE AREAS. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY? A. RIGHT, BUT IT WOULD NOT BE -- THE DIFFICULTY THERE IS THAT THE EVERGLADES IS NOT ONE UNIFORM PIECE. AND, SO, IF YOU WENT WAY TO THE SOUTH IN THE PARK, AND TRIED TO USE THAT AS THE STANDARD FOR THE NORTH, YOU WOULD BE IN VERY SAD SHAPE, BECAUSE THE NORTHERN PART OF THE EVERGLADES AND THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE EVERGLADES WERE NEVER THE SAME. I MEAN, THE NORTHERN PART, SOUTH OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, HAD THE DEEPEST PEAT, THE RICHEST SOILS, A LOT OF THE -- THERE WAS A LOT OF PHOSPHORUS, BY COMPARISON, STORED IN THE NORTH, UNDER HISTORICAL CONDITIONS, AS OVERWASHED FROM THE LAKE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1188 SO, YOU GO FROM TEN TO FIFTEEN FEET OF PEAT TO THE NORTH, ALL THE WAY DOWN TO TWO, THREE INCHES IN LIMESTONE OUTCROP. SO, YOU HAVE TO FIND A REFERENCE, AND I THINK IT WOULD ALMOST BE A REGIONAL. Q. AND YOU HAVE THE EVERGLADES, IN YOUR OWN MIND, DIVIDED INTO REGIONS? A. PRETTY MUCH. Q. AND TELL ME WHAT THOSE REGIONS ARE. A. WELL, I HAVE THE LOXAHATCHEE REGION, WHICH IS THE -- WHICH IS A VERY DIFFERENT AREA, PROBABLY ONE OF THE MORE UNIQUE AREAS OF THE EVERGLADES IN THE SENSE THAT IT'S ACIDIC, WHERE MOST OF THE OTHER PARTS OF THE EVERGLADES THAT I HAVE SEEN ARE BASIC. IT'S -- AND HAS BEEN, AS FAR AS I CAN DETERMINE, FOR -- OH, IT COULD BE A THOUSAND YEARS OR MORE -- ALMOST A RAINFALL DRIVEN SYSTEM, EXCEPT WHEN YOU PUT THE DIKES AROUND IT AND START ADDING WATER TO IT. IT'S ON A TOPOGRAPHIC HIGH, AS FAR AS THE CENTER OF IT, AT LEAST. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S DOMED UP. IT'S A RESULT OF POLLUTIFICATION. AT ONE TIME, THAT WAS, ACCORDING TO THE GEOLOGIC RECORDS, A BOWL OR BASIN, AND THE PEAT BUILT UP; AND, ACTUALLY, IT'S THE HIGHEST EXISTING PORTION RIGHT NOW ON THE LANDSCAPE, WHICH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1189 MEANS WATER HITS THE TOP AND IT RUNS OUTWARD; CREATES A HYDRAULIC HEAD; AND SO, THEREFORE, THAT SYSTEM IS QUITE DIFFERENT IN ITS CHEMISTRIES; A LOT LESS CALCIUM AND SO FORTH; A LOWER ACIDITY THAN IN THE OTHER AREAS, LIKE TWO, THREE, AND THE PARK. Q. OKAY. A. DO YOU WANT ME TO DESCRIBE THE OTHERS? Q. YEAH, WERE YOU THROUGH WITH LOXAHATCHEE? A. AND, SO, LOXAHATCHEE IS SORT OF AN OMBROTROPHIC, NUTRIENT-POOR, RAINFALL DRIVEN SYSTEM, EXCEPT FOR WHERE THEY PUMP WATER AROUND THE PERIPHERY. Q. JUST ONE QUESTION ABOUT THAT. WHEN YOU SAY RAINFALL-DRIVEN SYSTEM, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, BECAUSE IT'S THE HIGHEST POINT IN THE LANDSCAPE, AT LEAST PRESENTLY IN THE CENTER, AND SINCE WATER GENERALLY DOESN'T RUN UPHILL, THE ONLY WATER IT HAS RECEIVED, AND ACTUALLY SHOULD BE RECEIVING IS STRICTLY FROM RAINFALL. Q. OH, YOU MEAN AS OPPOSED TO FLOW? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY, I UNDERSTAND. WHEREAS LOWER AREAS OF THE EVERGLADES, PRE-PROJECT--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---WOULD HAVE RECEIVED WATER FROM FLOW AS WELL DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1190 AS RAINFALL? A. CORRECT. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. A. AND I'M NOT SAYING EVERY INCH OF THE LOXAHATCHEE DIDN'T RECEIVE SOME FLOW. I'M SAYING THAT THE CENTER PORTION OF THAT IS MUCH -- WELL, IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH, SIX INCHES OR A FOOT OR TWO FEET OR THREE FEET. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DISTANCE, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY ONE WHERE ALL THE EVIDENCE SHOWS, THE CORPS SHOW THAT, AND EVERYTHING -- AND THE PA SHOWS THAT -- THAT, IN FACT, IT'S SIMPLY SURVIVING ON RAINFALL. AND IF ONE WANTED TO RESTORE THAT PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES TO WHAT IT WAS, ONE WOULD SIMPLY LET IT HAVE RAINFALL, PERIOD. THAT WOULD BE IT. Q. YOU MEAN, GET RID OF THE DIKES AND GET RID OF THE CANALS? A. WELL, I -- THE DIKES AND CANALS ARE THERE FOR OTHER PURPOSES, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IN TERMS OF FLOOD CONTROL AND HURRICANE PROTECTION AND WATER SUPPLY AND SO FORTH. BUT IF THE GOAL IS TO RESTORE THE -- THAT PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES, IT WOULD BE MY OPINION THAT THE LOXAHATCHEE SHOULD BE GIVEN, PRETTY MUCH, JUST RAINFALL AND LET IT BE. Q. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1191 A. NOW, I HAVEN'T COMPLETED ALL THE ANALYSIS ON THAT, BUT THAT WOULD PRETTY MUCH WHAT THE EVIDENCE INDICATES. IF THE GOAL WAS TO RESTORE IT AS CLOSE TO NATURAL AS IT COULD BE, IT PROBABLY SHOULD NOT BE. I'VE RECOMMENDED THIS BEFORE, ACTUALLY TO SOME DIFFERENT GROUPS, I THINK BEFORE SOME BOARD MEETINGS. Q. THE NEXT ONE? A. WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A IS AN AREA THAT HAS SOME OF THE SAME PEAT, LOXAHATCHEE PEAT WHICH WAS AN AQUATIC-TYPE SYSTEM, AND SOME SAWGRASS SOUTH OF THE LOXAHATCHEE, OR WATER CONSERVATION AREA 1. IT IS THE AREA THAT HAS BEEN RECEIVING A FAIR AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN WATER, AND, RIGHT NOW, IS ALMOST USED AS A MIXING ZONE, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL. IT'S SORT OF IN THE MIDDLE, AND HAS BEEN SINCE THE INTERACTION PLAN IN '79. IT HAS RECEIVED, FOR OSCILLATING AMOUNTS, PULSES OF WATER AND NUTRIENTS. AND SO, THAT ZONE, MORE THAN ANY HAS -- THAT PARTICULAR SORT OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA HAS -- IT'S THE MOST DISTURBED SYSTEM, BY FAR, THAT I'VE SEEN OF THE EVERGLADES. IT HAS SUFFERED FROM A PERIOD OF OVER TEN YEARS OF RAISED WATER LEVELS WHERE IT'S TWO TO THREE FEET DEEP. THEN IT HAS HAD THE WATER TABLES DROPPED TO THE SURFACE, AND THEN A DROUGHT HIT, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1192 THEN WATER HAS BEEN PUMPED IN THERE ON A PULSING BASIS FOR THIRTY ODD YEARS. AND AFTER '79, THEY'VE SORT OF DOUBLED THE LOAD OF NUTRIENTS GOING INTO THAT SITE, YOU KNOW, SINCE THEY COULD NO LONGER PUMP INTO OKEECHOBEE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, BUT ACCORDING TO THE IAP AGREEMENT. SO, THAT SYSTEM, NOW, IS PROBABLY THE MOST DISTURBED OF ALL OF THE SYSTEMS DUE TO ITS HYDROLOGY AND NUTRIENTS. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THE GREAT INFLUX OF NUTRIENTS RESULTED FROM THE IAP? A. NOT THE -- I SAY "THE GREAT." I'D SAY THERE WAS A DEFINITE INCREASE AFTER THAT PERIOD. MY RECOLLECTION OF THE RECORDS WERE THAT, BEFORE THAT, WE WERE TALKING -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE NUMBERS -- BUT I DO REMEMBER SOMETHING FROM SOME OF THE 10 STRUCTURES OF TWENTY -- MAYBE TWENTY METRIC TONS, LET'S SAY, OF PHOSPHORUS, AND MAYBE, I DON'T REMEMBER THE MEASURED NUMBERS. BUT SOME YEARS, AFTER THE IAP WENT IN, I THINK IN THE EARLY '80'S, IT WENT UP TO NINETY METRIC TONS IN SOME YEARS. Q. OKAY. AND WHERE DID THAT PHOSPHORUS COME FROM? A. IT CAME THROUGH THE CANAL STRUCTURES AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1193 THROUGH THE HILLSBORO CANAL. Q. AND WHERE DID IT -- HOW DID THE PHOSPHORUS GET INTO THE WATER IN THE FIRST INSTANCE--- A. THAT--- Q. ---THE PHOSPHORUS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW, THE INCREASE WHICH RESULTED FROM THE IAP? A. RIGHT. WELL, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE RECORDS AND SO FORTH, THAT SOME OF IT CAME AS WATER THAT WAS PASSED THROUGH FROM THE EAA LAND, WHICH WAS A COMBINATION -- THAT WATER WAS A COMBINATION OF THEIR RUNOFF, RAINFALL, LAKE OKEECHOBEE WATER. SO, IT'S A MIXTURE OF WATERS THAT CAME OFF THE EAA. Q. OKAY, GO AHEAD. ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE REGION--- A. 2A? Q. ---THAT YOU'RE CALLING 2A? A. THE SOUTHERN END OF 2A IS -- AND THE CENTER PORTION OF IT -- ARE STILL RELATIVELY UNDISTURBED. I'D SAY, OTHER THAN THE PULSED HYDROLOGY, THE MAIN THING WITH 2A IS ITS PULSED HYDROLOGY IS QUITE DIFFERENT. WATER BACKS UP; IT PROBABLY GETS SOME OF THE GREATEST OSCILLATIONS AND HYDROLOGIC ACTIVITY OF ANY OF THE SYSTEM, EXCEPT FOR THE WESTERN -- NORTHWESTERN PORTION -- NORTH -- LET'S SAY THE WESTERN CENTRAL PORTION HAS A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1194 HIGH REGION, WHICH STILL HAS A VERY DENSE -- A VERY DENSE SAWGRASS SECTION. IT'S PROBABLY THE BEST REMNANT THAT I KNOW OF, OF DENSE SAWGRASS. IT'S ALMOST PURE SAWGRASS THAT EXISTS, IN SORT OF WHAT'S LEFT OF THE NORTHERN CENTRAL EVERGLADES. Q. AND THAT'S IN THE WHAT PORTION? A. IT'S SORT OF IN THE WESTERN CENTRAL PORTION. I'M NOT DESCRIBING IT VERY WELL, BUT WCA-2A, IF YOU REMEMBER, IS KIND OF AN ODD SHAPED PIECE. IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE A HAMMER. IT'S ON THE WEST -- IT'S ON THE WESTERN SIDE, BUT NOT RIGHT ALONG THE DIKES. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. I'M SAYING IN SORT OF THE -- I'D SAY DIRECTLY SOUTH OF THE 10E STRUCTURE, IF THAT HELPS YOU--- Q. OKAY. A. ---NOT IMMEDIATELY SOUTH, BUT MAYBE A HALF A MILE SOUTH, RUNNING DOWN A RIDGE. Q. ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THAT REGION? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. REID: I WON'T ASK YOU WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE FORM. GO AHEAD. A. ABOUT 2A? Q. YEAH, DID YOU HAVE ANY OTHER -- YOU WERE GIVING ME A SERIES--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1195 A. WELL--- Q. ---YOU WERE DESCRIBING 2A, AND I'M ASKING YOU NOW, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO TELL ME, AS A DESCRIPTION OF 2A, AS A SEPARATE REGION? A. WELL, I THINK HISTORICALLY THE NORTHERN PART OF IT, I MEAN -- WELL, NOW THE NORTHERN PART OF IT, THERE IS SORT OF A CATTAIL MONOCULTURE THAT FORMS A FOUR OR FIVE THOUSAND ACRE BLOCK IN THE NORTHERN PART. BUT, HISTORICALLY, THAT WAS MOSTLY, FROM WHAT WE COULD PIECE TOGETHER -- THERE'S SOME MISCONCEPTIONS ON THAT; SOME PEOPLE THINK IT WAS ALL SAWGRASS -- BUT, HISTORICALLY, THAT PARTICULAR PIECE WAS -- THERE WERE SOME TREE ISLANDS, AND THERE WAS AQUATIC SLOUGH AREAS IN THAT PARTICULAR REGION, SOME WILLOWS. AND, SO, IT WAS NOT A PURE SAWGRASS STAND IN THAT PARTICULAR REGION. AND THE ORIGINAL VEGETATION THERE WAS REALLY HURT PRETTY BADLY, ESPECIALLY THE TREE ISLANDS AND SOME OF THE MACROPHYTES WHEN IT WAS FLOODED FOR A DECADE, IT DROWNED -- IT WAS DROWNED OUT; BECAME A LAKE. Q. AND WHAT DECADE WAS THAT? A. I BELIEVE THAT WAS FROM THE LATE SIXTIES THROUGH THE SEVENTIES. Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S NOW CATTAILS, IN LARGE PART? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1196 A. THE NORTHERN PORTION OF THAT IS -- I'D SAY FOUR OR FIVE THOUSAND ACRES -- AND THERE'S A ZONE IN THERE THAT'S CATTAIL, AND THEN THERE'S A MIXED ZONE. Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT -- THOSE CATTAILS, THE EXPLANATION FOR THOSE CATTAILS IS THE FLOODING, THAT YOU DESCRIBED? A. WELL, I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION OF THINGS. I THINK FLOODING AND DISTURBANCE HAD A LOT TO DO WITH THEM MOVING INTO THAT PARTICULAR ZONE. Q. AND WHAT DISTURBANCE? A. WELL, THE SCENARIOS ARE -- THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, WHICH WAS THE FLOODING, WHICH KILLED OFF THE NATIVE VEGETATION, OR IT WEAKENED IT TO SOME DEGREE, AND THEN THE DRAWDOWN. THEN THERE WERE FIRES; THERE WERE TREMENDOUS FIRES IN THAT REGION. Q. SAME TIME PERIOD, LATE SIXTIES, EARLY SEVENTIES? A. LATE SEVENTIES OR EARLY EIGHTIES WERE WHEN THE FIRES WERE -- CAME IN, I BELIEVE. Q. OKAY. A. AND THEN THERE WAS RE-FLOODING. THEN WE ADDED WATER AND NUTRIENTS, AND I THINK IT RESULTED IN CATTAIL. Q. NOW, YOU ADDED -- RIGHT AT THE END OF YOUR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1197 ANSWER, YOU ADDED "NUTRIENTS." WHERE DID THOSE NUTRIENTS COME FROM? A. THROUGH THE 10 STRUCTURES. Q. AND WAS THAT ESSENTIALLY AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF? A. IT CAME DOWN THE HILLSBORO CANAL, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IF YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN OUT THOSE NUTRIENTS, YOU STILL WOULD HAVE HAD THE SAME RESULT, THE SAME CATTAILS? A. IF I HAD TAKEN OUT THE NUTRIENTS? Q. YES. A. I BELIEVE YOU WOULD HAVE HAD CATTAILS IN THERE. Q. HOW WOULD THEY COMPARE TO THE CATTAILS, THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, THAT ARE IN THERE? A. WELL, IT'S HARD TO KNOW. I BELIEVE FROM LOOKING AT THEIR -- SOME RECORDS AND EARLY DESCRIPTIONS OF THAT, THAT, IN FACT, THERE WAS -- THERE WAS A--- (THEREUPON, TELEPHONE RINGS.) A. ---AN AMOUNT OF CATTAILS THAT WERE IN THERE, I'D SAY HISTORICALLY, AFTER THE EARLY DISTURBANCE OF THE CANAL, AND ALL THAT STUFF WERE IN THERE. NOW, I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT ACREAGE, BUT IT WAS--- Q. WELL, I'M NOT SURE THAT EXACTLY ANSWERED MY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1198 QUESTION, BUT I WANT TO -- I WOULD LIKE TO--- A. I GOT SORT OF DISTRACTED WITH ALL OF THIS, WITH THE PHONE. MR. REID: OKAY. SURE. LET'S TAKE A BREAK. (THEREUPON, A BREAK WAS TAKEN FROM 9:42 A.M. TO 9:45 A.M.) MR. REID: BACK ON THE RECORD. EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES: Q. THIS -- BEFORE WE GO BACK TO THE QUESTION, WOULD YOU -- I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME CATTAIL AREA. WOULD YOU TELL ME EXACTLY WHERE IT IS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. I BELIEVE THE CATTAIL AREA I WAS REFERRING TO WAS THE SMALL, SORT OF MONOCULTURE AREA THAT PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IN THE NORTHERN END OF WCA-2A THAT'S SOUTH OF THE HILLSBORO CANAL. Q. WOULD THAT -- CAN YOU TELL ME, WITH REGARD TO STRUCTURES, WHERE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. IT FOLLOWS ALONG THE DCA STRUCTURES AND DOWN TO THE RIGHT. I BELIEVE THAT'S THE L-39 LEVEE. Q. AND THAT'S ABOUT HOW MANY ACRES? WHAT'S THAT AREA YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. THE MONOCULTURE AREA IN THERE, I THINK, IS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1199 JUST -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT FIGURE; I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT DOCUMENTS -- BUT I THOUGHT ABOUT FIVE THOUSAND ACRES, I'M SAYING ROUGHLY. Q. NOW, YOU HAD GONE THROUGH A LIST OF THINGS THAT YOU SAID YOU BELIEVE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS CREATION OF THIS; AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE LATE SIXTIES, EARLY SEVENTIES FLOODING, DISTURBANCES SUCH AS FIRES ABOUT A DECADE LATER; AND THEN YOU ENDED BY SAYING, AND THE ADDITION OF NUTRIENTS. AND I WAS ASKING -- I ASKED IF THOSE WERE NUTRIENTS FROM AGRICULTURE RUNOFF, AND I BELIEVE YOU SAID THEY WERE. MR. GREEN: I OBJECT. I DON'T THINK SO. Q. (BY MR. REID) DID YOU SAY THAT THEY WERE? A. I SAID THEY CAME OFF THE LAND. I THINK I SAID EARLIER THAN THAT, IT WAS -- WHAT COMES OFF THE LAND IS A COMBINATION OF RAINFALL AND LAKE WATER, AND -- BUT, ESSENTIALLY, IT COMES ALL THROUGH THAT CANAL, RIGHT. Q. WELL, IT'S WATER THAT'S USED FOR FERTILIZA -- FOR IRRIGATION IN THE EAA. IS THAT CORRECT? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, THERE'S ALSO RAINWATER IN THERE, TOO, BUT ALL THAT WATER WAS--- Q. OKAY. AND, SO, NOW MY QUESTION IS, IF THE NUTRIENTS HAD NOT BEEN ADDED, WOULD YOU HAVE THE SAME DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1200 CATTAIL AREA THAT YOU HAVE? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) OR HOW WOULD IT DIFFER, I GUESS I SHOULD SAY. MR. GREEN: I STILL OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S HARD TO KNOW HOW IT WOULD DIFFER. I MEAN, FROM MY RECOLLECTIONS, DISCUSSIONS, AND REVIEW OF PHOTOGRAPHS AND ANALYSIS OF THIS, THERE HAVE BEEN, SINCE THE CANALS WERE PUT IN, AND EVEN IN THE SEVENTIES, THERE WAS A MONOCULTURE OF CATTAIL THAT WAS ALONG THAT ZONE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN ONLY -- I DON'T KNOW -- THIRTY, FIFTY PERCENT OF THAT TOTAL ZONE, BUT THAT'S WHAT IT -- THAT WAS THERE. SO, IF THERE HAD BEEN NO NUTRIENTS, I MEAN, I'M NOT SURE HOW YOU WOULD GET NO NUTRIENTS IN THERE, I GUESS. Q. WELL, IF THERE WERE NO -- IF THE WATER DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN NATURALLY OCCURRING NUTRIENTS, LET'S SAY, YOU DIDN'T HAVE FARMING TO THE NORTH--- MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) LET'S ASSUME THAT. MY QUESTION IS, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? WHAT WOULD THAT CATTAIL STRU -- WHAT WOULD THAT CATTAIL COMMUNITY LOOK LIKE? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1201 A. WELL, AS I SAID, I THINK BECAUSE THE STRUCTURES WENT IN AND THERE WAS SUBSIDENCE AND IT WAS DEEPER THERE, AND WITH ALL THE CONDITIONS PRIOR TO THAT, YOU WOULD STILL HAVE A -- YOU'D HAVE SOME MONOCULTURE OF CATTAIL THAT WOULD EXIST IN THAT REGION, IN THAT ZONE. Q. SO, WITHOUT FARMING, OR AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF, YOU BELIEVE YOU'D STILL HAVE SOME CATTAILS IN THAT AREA--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. ---FOR ALL THE OTHER REASONS THAT YOU MENTIONED? A. I BELIEVE YOU'D HAVE SOME CATTAIL IN THOSE AREAS. Q. AND HAS THAT CATTAIL AREA EXPANDED OVER TIME, SINCE THE TIME THAT YOU POINTED OUT, IN THE SEVENTIES, WHEN YOU SAID THERE WAS A PREEXISTING OR AN EXISTING MONOCULTURE OF CATTAILS THERE? A. HAS IT EXPANDED, MOVED UP? Q. YES. YES, MOVED -- OR DOWN, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO SAY IT -- MOVED SOUTH, I GUESS. A. I BELIEVE THERE'S EVIDENCE THAT IT HAS DONE SO, YES. Q. IS IT CONTINUING TO EXPAND, AS WE SIT HERE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1202 TODAY? A. WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I HAVE SEEN IT BOTH RETREAT, DURING THE LAST FIVE YEARS, IN TERMS OF FREEZES, AND HAVE MOST OF THE CATTAILS DIE BACK. I'VE SEEN IT DISAPPEAR WHEN FIRES WENT THROUGH THERE, AND SAWGRASS CAME BACK. AND THEN I'VE SEEN IN THE LAST -- AND DURING THE DROUGHT, THE CATTAILS WERE TERRIBLY HURT. AND THEN I'VE SEEN IT, ALSO, WITH THE RAINFALLS AND THE INCREASED WATER FLOWS, EXPAND. I THINK IT'S PROBABLY AT AN OSCILLATING FRONT AT THE MOMENT, IN TERMS OF UNDER THE -- QUOTE -- SORT OF LIKE A PENDULUM ON A GRANDFATHER CLOCK. AS THE WATER IS PULSED THROUGH THERE, BACK AND FORTH, THERE'S A ZONE THAT IS SORT OF AT THE OUTER EDGE, NOW, BUT I THINK IT MOVES OUT AND COMES BACK, AND MOVES OUT AND COMES BACK. AND THEN DEPENDING UPON WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE A YEAR WHERE THERE'S TREMENDOUS DROUGHT, IT MAY MOVE BACK FURTHER, OR A YEAR OF TREMENDOUS RAIN, IT MAY MOVE FORWARD A BIT. BUT RIGHT NOW, IT SEEMS TO BE SOMEWHAT IN SOMEWHAT OF A QUASI-STEADY STATE, I GUESS. Q. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU JUST SAID. IF YOU DREW A LINE, IF WE WENT BACK IN THE SEVENTIES, WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS A MONOCULTURE OF CATTAILS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1203 Q. ---AROUND THE CANAL, AND HOW LARGE WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN? DID YOU SAY TEN OR FIFTEEN PERCENT OF WHAT IT IS NOW? A. NO, I THINK I SAID -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY -- I THINK WE LOOKED AT SOME AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS. I THINK THIRTY TO FORTY PERCENT OF WHAT IT WAS. Q. OKAY. AND IF YOU DREW A LINE THERE, IT HAS EXPANDED BEYOND THAT LINE? A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHETHER THE MONOCULTURE HAS EXPANDED, OR WHETHER JUST INDIVIDUAL CATTAIL PLANTS HAVE EXPANDED. Q. WELL, LET'S START WITH THE MONOCULTURE; HAS THE AREA OF MONOCULTURE EXPANDED SINCE THE SEVENTIES? A. SINCE THE SEVENTIES? I THINK IT -- I THINK SINCE THE SEVE -- EARLY SEVENTIES, LATE SEVENTIES? Q. THE TIME THAT YOU SAID--- A. OH--- Q. ---I'M USING YOUR REFERENCE POINT. A. ---OKAY. Q. WHEN YOU SAID THERE WAS AN EXISTING MONOCULTURE--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---OF THIRTY TO FORTY PERCENT OF THE CURRENT MONOCULTURE. A. RIGHT. WELL, THEN, I THINK IN A SENSE THAT, DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1204 SINCE THAT TIME, IT'S PROBABLY MAYBE DOUBLED IN SIZE, OR SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE. Q. AND THEN YOU'RE SAYING THAT -- SO, THEN IF WE DREW A LINE TO THE POINT WHERE IT HAD EXPANDED, BEYOND THAT, THERE WOULD BE A MIXED ZONE OF CATTAILS AND SAWGRASS, I TAKE IT? A. AND OTHER SPECIES, CORRECT. Q. AND OTHER THINGS, OF COURSE. A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. NOW, YOU SAY THAT IT HAS RETREATED DUE TO FREEZE. THERE HAVE BEEN FREEZES ALONG THAT LINE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT HAS ACTUALLY CAUSED THE MONOCULTURE LINE, IF YOU WILL, TO MOVE BACK TO THE NORTH? A. THE FREEZE -- AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT -- IN THE '89-90 PERIOD -- PROBABLY KNOCKED OUT -- AND THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ESTIMATE HERE -- SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT OR MORE OF THE CATTAILS WERE, THROUGHOUT THAT REGION. I MEAN, IT WAS AMAZINGLY DEVASTATING TO CATTAILS. Q. THE MONOCULTURE REGION? A. ALL THE CATTAILS IN THOSE AREAS. THEY WERE JUST WIPED OUT. Q. OKAY. ALL IN 2-A, ALL THE CATTAILS IN 2A? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1205 A. WELL, PRETTY MUCH CATTAILS, PRETTY MUCH THROUGHOUT. WE HAD HAD A RECORD DROUGHT PERIOD FOR TWO YEARS, AND THE DROUGHT HAD WEAKENED THEM TERRIBLY, AND THE WATER WAS THIRTY CENTIMETERS BELOW -- FIFTY CENTIMETERS BELOW THE SURFACE. Q. SO, IF SOMEBODY WENT OUT THERE IN '90, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND NO CATTAILS? A. NO, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND SOME CATTAILS, BUT THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND VERY DEVASTATED STANDS OF CATTAILS BY COMPARISON, AND IT DEPENDS ON THE REGION YOU WENT, BECAUSE THERE WERE SOME FIRES IN THERE, TOO. YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND, YOU KNOW, BURNED AREAS AND SO FORTH. Q. WE'RE TALKING NOW ABOUT THIS AREA OF MONOCULTURE. IS THAT CORRECT? A. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE WHOLE AREA, I'M SORRY. Q. WHAT WHOLE AREA? A. THE MONOCULTURE AND THE MIXTURE. I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING--- Q. OKAY. THE MONOCULTURE AND THE MIXED AREA, THAT'S FAIR ENOUGH. SO, YOU'RE SAYING THERE WERE FIRES AFTER '90 THAT ALSO AFFECTED THESE? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. SO, AT WHAT POINT WOULD YOU HAVE GONE THERE, A DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1206 SCIENTIST SUCH AS YOURSELF, AND IF YOU WERE DOING A VEGETATIVE MAP, YOU WOULD HAVE SAID -- YOU WOULD NOT HAVE PUT CATTAIL MONOCULTURE, OR MIXED, CATTAIL SAWGRASS ON YOUR MAP, YOU WOULD HAVE PUT SOMETHING ELSE? MR. BURGESS: WHERE? MR. REID: IN THIS AREA WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT HE JUST DESCRIBED. MR. BURGESS: ALL OF 2A? MR. REID: NO, I DON'T -- IS IT ALL OF 2A, ALL THIS -- WELL, LET'S FIND OUT. Q. (BY MR. REID) ARE YOU SAYING THAT IN ALL OF 2A, IT'S EITHER MONOCULTURE OR MIXED CATTAIL AND SAWGRASS? A. NO, NO. Q. OKAY. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE AREA THAT YOU DESCRIBED AS MONOCULTURE AND MIXED CATTAIL, SAWGRASS AND OTHER THINGS. IS THAT CORRECT? A. UH-HUH (YES). (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. ALL RIGHT, WITHIN THAT AREA, ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE FREEZE, IN '89 OR '90, AND FIRES IN THAT SAME PERIOD, RESULTED IN A DESTRUCTION OF ALL THE CATTAILS? A. NO, YOU COULD STILL SEE THE REMNANTS OF WHERE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1207 THE ZONES WERE. YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT, BUT I'M SAYING, THEY WERE NOT VIA -- IF YOU WENT OUT THERE AND LOOKED AT THEM, I MEAN, YOU COULD SEE -- YOU COULD SEE WHERE THE ZONES WERE. WELL, THAT QUESTION IS WHETHER YOU'RE LOOKING FOR LIVING, VIABLE VEGETATION, OR -- YOU COULD TELL -- THERE WERE NONE. Q. SO, THEN WHAT -- SO, THEN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) ---TO THESE AREAS -- THE SAME AREA. MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. Q. (BY MR. REID) DID THEY GROW BACK? A. WE -- IT DEPENDS. I HAVE NOT SURVEYED IN GREAT DETAIL THESE AREAS. IT IS NOT MY JOB ESSENTIALLY TO KEEP TRACK OF THE CATTAILS, ALTHOUGH IT WASN'T ONE OF MY MAJOR OBJECTIVES OF MY STUDY TO DO THAT, SO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT I AM RELATING TO YOU ARE SIMPLY OBSERVATIONS WHEN WE GO ON OUR EIGHTEEN TRANSECT POINTS, AND WE DID PUT A VEGETATION SURVEY IN ON OUR EIGHTEEN POINTS FOR EACH -- EVERY OTHER YEAR, WE HAD A REFERENCE POINT AND WE TAKE A NUMBER OF LINE TRANSECTS SO THAT WE CAN GET SOME IDEAS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING ALONG OUR EIGHTEEN POINTS, BUT I DID NOT TRY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1208 TO MAP, PER SE, MYSELF, ALL THE CATTAIL ZONES. I CAN ONLY -- I'M JUST TELLING YOU FROM SOME OBSERVATIONS AND FOLLOWING THAT, BUT--- Q. MY QUESTION IS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE AREA WHERE THE CATTAILS WERE HARMED BY THE FREEZE, FOLLOWED BY THE FIRES, WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT? A. WELL, WE DID -- IN A COUPLE OF THE PLOTS, WHERE WE DID DO SOME ANALYSES WHERE THE FIRES WERE, WE DID IT -- WE DID SOME VEGETATION SURVEYS AND WE ACTUALLY PUT THAT IN OUR ANNUAL REPORT, AND IN THE NORTHERN END, IT THINK IT WAS ON THE C LINE WHERE WE HAD DONE THE QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS, SAWGRASS CAME BACK. Q. ALL THE WAY UP TO THE CANAL? A. NO, I SAID WHERE WE DID OUR STUDY. I DIDN'T -- WE DID NOT DO A COMPLETE VEGETATION SURVEY. I'M SAYING WE HAVE EIGHTEEN POINTS, SIX ON THREE LINES, AND WE DID VEGETATION SURVEYS ON ALL THOSE, BUT IN SOME OF THOSE, WHERE WE DID AN INTENSIVE SURVEY, WE JUST WANTED TO CHECK TO SEE WHAT CAME BACK, BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN ONE OF OUR GOALS TO COME UP WITH SOME MANAGEMENT SCENARIOS TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, CATTAILS -- IF YOU WANT TO MANAGE CATTAILS, WHAT YOU COULD DO AND HOW YOU COULD DO IT, WHETHER THEY WOULD COME, WHETHER THEY WOULD GO, AND SO WE BASICALLY WANTED TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1209 AFTER THE FIRE, SO WE ANALYZED IN MORE DETAIL THAT SERIES OF PLOTS. AND THAT PARTICULAR ZONE CAME BACK THE FIRST YEAR, ALMOST IN PURE SAWGRASS. Q. NOW, WHERE -- WHERE -- WHICH ONE OF YOUR 18 WAS THAT? A. I THINK IT WAS C3. Q. AND WAS THAT THE ONLY POINT WHERE THE CATTAILS CAME BACK -- I MEAN, THE SAWGRASS CAME BACK? A. NO. WELL, WE SAW SOME OTHER AREAS. THAT WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WE SURVEYED, BUT WE DID NOT SURVEY ALL OF THOSE. WE HAVE TAKEN SURVEYS OF THE OTHER EIGHTEEN POINTS. NOW, THAT WAS ONLY -- THE REASON WE DID THAT PARTICULAR C3 WAS THE AREA WHERE THE FIRE CAME AND ACTUALLY BURNED -- ACTUALLY BURNED THE WHOLE PLOT DOWN. Q. AND WHEN DID YOU MAKE THIS OBSERVATION AT C3? A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT OUR REPORT, BUT, I MEAN, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN THE EARLY NINETIES. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN. WE TOOK THE MEASUREMENTS IN THE SUMMERTIME. Q. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT IT SINCE THEN? A. WE ANALYZED THE PLOTS, I BELIEVE, IN '92, SO I BELIEVE THIS WOULD HAVE HAD TO BE EARLIER. I THINK IT WOULD BE -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS '91 OR '90. BUT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1210 WE HAVE REANALYZED AND THAT -- THAT'S THE PLOT. I THINK IT WAS THE NEXT YEAR. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE FINDING THEN? A. OH, IT HAD A VERY VIGOROUS STAND OF SAWGRASS GROWING THERE, AND WE HAD A FEW SPRIGS OF CATTAIL. Q. AND DID YOU CHECK IT LATER? A. WE WILL BE ANALYZING THAT -- ALL THESE PLOTS AGAIN, THIS SUMMER, IN MAY. Q. DO YOU EXPECT THAT YOU WILL FIND MORE CATTAILS AT THAT POINT? A. WE MIGHT. Q. TO WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THESE CATTAILS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO FORM. A. TO WHAT DO I ATTRIBUTE THEM TO? Q. YEAH. WHY ARE THERE CATTAILS THERE? A. WELL, I THINK THERE'S A SEED SOURCE, AND THERE ARE -- AFTER THAT FIRE, AND ALSO IN THE SOIL, THERE ARE NUTRIENT AND WATER CONDITIONS THAT MAKE IT CONDUCIVE FOR CATTAIL TO GROW. Q. WELL, THERE ARE -- SINCE THE FIRES WERE OVER, THERE HAVEN'T BEEN ANY -- HAVE THERE BEEN ANY DISTURBANCES AT THE C3 POINT? A. SINCE THE FIRE? Q. YEAH. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1211 A. JUST PULSED WATER. Q. SO, THERE HAVE BEEN NO DISTURBANCES, IS THAT CORRECT? MR. GREEN: WELL, YOU JUST SAID THE--- A. EXCEPT -- THAT I KNOW OF, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT THE GATES -- IT'S SOUTH OF THE SEA STRUCTURE, SO WHENEVER THEY OPEN THE GATES AND PUT WATER. Q. I UNDERSTAND. LET'S PUT WATER ASIDE FOR A MINUTE. I'M TALKING ABOUT DISTURBANCES LIKE CONSTRUCTION, OR FIRE, OR FREEZE, OR THOSE TYPE THINGS. A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY FREEZES OR ANY OTHER FIRES. Q. AND WHAT'S BEEN THE WATER SITUATION IN THAT AREA? HAS THERE BEEN A DROUGHT? HAS THERE BEEN A--- A. NO, THERE'S BEEN A RECORD -- SINCE THE EARLY NINETIES, WE'VE GONE INTO -- I SAY RECORD, THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT WORD -- WE'VE GONE INTO NORMAL OR ABOVE NORMAL RAINFALL CONDITIONS; AND IN THIS LAST YEAR, WE HAVE, FOR WHATEVER REASON -- I'M NOT SURE -- THE DISTRICT HAS DECIDED TO PUMP SOUTH A TREMENDOUS VOLUME OF WATER. WCA-2A HAS NOT BEEN ON ITS REGULATION STANDARD FOR, I'D SAY, CLOSE TO THE LAST YEAR, IF NOT LONGER. THEY HAVE OVER SHOT THEIR WATER STANDARDS. WE'VE CALLED THE DISTRICT A NUMBER OF TIMES TO ASK THEM DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1212 WHY, IF THEY HAVEN'T -- YOU KNOW, IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE YEARS, THEY USE THE CANALS. IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE YEARS, THE 217 STATION. THEY HAVE A BASELINE THAT THEY SWITCH BY SEASON, AS YOU WELL KNOW, PROBABLY, AND THEY HAVE OVERSHOT THAT BY A FOOT, OR FOOT AND A HALF OF WATER. Q. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE '93 REGULATORY RELEASES THAT RESULTED IN SOME LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER BEING SENT SOUTH? A. I THINK IT MUST HAVE BEEN PART OF THAT, YES. Q. AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AFTER, THOUGH, YOU FOUND THE BEGINNING OF THE CATTAILS? A. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AFTER THE BEGINNING OF THE CATTAILS, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN -- THE SAME TIME WE FOUND CATTAILS WOULD HAVE BEEN WHEN WE HAD THE HIGHER RAINFALL PERIODS, TOO. Q. SO, AT THE TIME THE CATTAILS HAD BEGUN INVADING IN THE AREA THAT PREVIOUSLY YOU FOUND TO BE COMPLETE SAWGRASS -- AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THERE WAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN -- I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE SITUATION WAS--- A. SURE. MR. GREEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM. Q. ---SO, WAS THERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN HIGH DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1213 RAINFALL? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WAS THERE ANYTHING--- Q. ANYTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY. A. ---IN THAT C3? Q. AT C3, YES, SIR. A. WELL, C3, I MEAN, THE SOIL CONDITIONS AT THE C3, YOU REMEMBER ORIGINALLY WE STARTED THIS OUT BY SAYING WHAT WAS C3. C3 ORIGINALLY WAS CATTAIL. Q. RIGHT. AND THEN THEY WERE ALL DESTROYED, AND THEN YOU SAID SAWGRASS CAME BACK. A. CORRECT. Q. A PERFECT STAND OF SAWGRASS, YOU SAID. A. WELL, IT WAS ABOUT AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN GET. Q. RIGHT. AND THEN THE NEXT YEAR YOU FOUND CATTAILS THERE? A. RIGHT. Q. AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THERE WERE ANY OF THESE OTHER THINGS TO WHICH YOU ATTRIBUTE THE BEGINNING OF CATTAILS, IN SOME OF YOUR EARLIER TESTIMONY. A. RIGHT. Q. AND SO FAR YOU'VE TOLD ME THERE WAS HIGHER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1214 THAN NORMAL RAINFALL. A. WELL, AND WATER FLOWS; AND, OF COURSE, THE SOIL CONDITIONS AT C3 ARE ELEVATED NUTRIENT CONDITIONS AT C3. Q. PREVIOUSLY EXISTING? A. PREVIOUSLY EXISTING. Q. AND IS THAT -- WOULD YOU ATTRIBUTE, THEN, THIS OUT -- THIS BEGINNING OF CATTAILS TO THOSE FACTORS? A. TO ALL THOSE FACTORS -- OR WHAT FACTORS? Q. WELL, WHICH ONES, YOU TELL ME. A. WELL, I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION. Q. OF? A. OF THOSE FACTORS. I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO HAVE, FOR CATTAILS TO INVADE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE DISTURBANCE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT HYDROLOGY. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT CONDITIONS FOR THEM. PRIMARILY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE DISTURBANCE OF SOME KIND TO GET THEM. Q. AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY DISTURBANCE HERE, THOUGH, IN C3? A. WE HAD A FIRE. Q. NO, I MEAN, SINCE THE SAWGRASS CAME BACK, AND THERE WAS NO DISTURBANCE THAT PRECEDED THE BEGINNING OF CATTAILS. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1215 MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM, THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID. Q. (BY MR. REID) WELL, ALL RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID, BUT I'LL -- YOU HAD A FIRE. YOU HAD FIRES. AND THEN YOU FOUND SAWGRASS, PURE SAWGRASS AFTER THAT. IS THAT CORRECT? A. CORRECT. Q. THEN THE NEXT TIME YOU CHECKED, YOU FOUND CATTAILS BEGINNING? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. THERE WAS NO FIRE BETWEEN THE TIME OF THE PURE SAWGRASS AND THE TIME YOU FOUND CATTAILS, WAS THERE? A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q. WAS THERE ANY DISTURBANCE, AT ALL, DURING THAT PERIOD? A. PULSED--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECTION, ASKED AND ANSWERED. A. ---PULSED WATER CONDITIONS THROUGH THERE. Q. IN OTHER WORDS, WATER FLOWING THROUGH THE CANALS FROM AGRICULTURE RUNOFF? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. THERE'S THAT, BUT THERE'S ALSO THE WAY IN WHICH IT WAS -- THE WAY IN WHICH WATER IS ADMINISTERED DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1216 TO THOSE SYSTEMS, THAT IS, THESE STRUCTURES, WHO BASICALLY OPEN AND CLOSE THE GATES, AND YOU HAVE TO -- IF YOU'RE THERE AND ACTUALLY SEE THE WATER FLOW, I MEAN, IT'S LIKE THEY OPEN UP THE WALL, AND THEN YOU GET THIS MASSIVE VOLUME OF WATER JUST -- IT'S SO -- IT CAN BE SO -- SUCH A GREAT MAGNITUDE THAT, IN FACT, YOU CAN SEE THE NEARBY VEGETATION BEING JUST SORT OF RIPPED OUT, AND JUST PUSHED SOUTH, SO THERE'S A TREMENDOUS VOLUME OF THAT, THEN. NOW, WHAT I DIDN'T TELL YOU IS THAT -- I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK OUR NOTES, BUT I DON'T -- I'M NOT SURE WHETHER THE CATTAILS WERE SEEDED IN, OR WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THEY CAME FROM RHIZOMES THAT WERE STILL VIABLE. SO, THAT'S -- THE SEED BANK, IN OTHER WORDS, COULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN THERE, SO WHETHER -- THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHETHER THEY INVADED, OR WHETHER OR NOT, IN FACT, THEY JUST CAME FROM THE EXISTING STOCK. Q. IF YOU HAD HAD WATER WITH ABSOLUTELY NO NUTRIENTS IN IT, AT ALL, WOULD THE -- WOULD YOU HAVE EXPECTED TO SEE THE CATTAILS? A. PROBABLY. Q. WHY IS THAT? A. WELL, BECAUSE THERE'S ENOUGH RESIDUAL NUTRIENT MATERIAL IN THE SOIL, AND THE SOIL PORE WATER THERE. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1217 Q. WHICH HAS -- WHICH DID NOT EXIST HISTORICALLY IN THE EVERGLADES? A. NOT TO THAT DEGREE. Q. ALL RIGHT, WHAT -- WE'VE DIGRESSED, OBVIOUSLY. GOING BACK TO YOUR REGIONS, WHAT WILL -- WHAT WOULD THE NEXT REGION BE? MR. GREEN: BEFORE WE DO THAT, COULD WE TAKE ABOUT ONE MINUTE? (THEREUPON, A BREAK WAS TAKEN FROM 10:10 A.M. TO 10:15 A.M.) Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT, WHAT IS THE NEXT AREA OF--- WITNESS: WE'RE BACK ON THE RECORD, I GUESS? MR. REID: YES Q. ---AREA THAT -- YOU TOLD ME ABOUT THE LOXAHATCHEE AND ABOUT WCA-2A; WHAT'S THE OTHER REGION, WHEN YOU SAID YOU DIVIDE THE EVERGLADES INTO REGIONS? A. RIGHT. AND SO FOR 2A, AS I SAID, I THINK WE WOULD -- I WOULD DESCRIBE THAT ONE AS -- FINISH UP WITH THAT ONE AS THE MOST DISTURBED -- THE MOST DISTURBED SYSTEM. AND THEN THERE'S 2B, AN AREA THAT HAS BEEN DIVIDED OFF FROM 2A. THAT'S A SMALL SEGMENT; I GUESS ABOUT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1218 TWENTY-SEVEN THOUSAND ACRES. ANOTHER ONE THAT IS SOMEWHAT HYDROLOGICALLY ISOLATED FROM 2A, ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE WATER FLOW STRUCTURES INTO THAT, AND ALSO THIS IS A SOMEWHAT MORE POROUS SYSTEM IN THE SENSE THAT THE SUBSURFACE FLOW, ACCORDING TO THE DISTRICT AND GEOLOGICAL RECORDS, ARE SUCH THAT IT DOES NOT HOLD WATER AS WELL AS THE OTHER SYSTEMS. SO, IT'S A SMALLER COMPONENT OF THE SYSTEM. AND THEN THERE'S 3, WHICH IS THE LARGEST OF THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, AND THE ONE THAT I WOULD CONSIDER, FROM MY ANALYSES, THE MOST REPRESENTATIVE REMAINING AREA OF WHAT I WOULD CALL THE FLOW-THROUGH PART OF THE EVERGLADES, AND IT'S THE CENTRAL PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES. Q. BY THE FLOW-THROUGH PART, YOU MEAN THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES? A. HISTORICAL EVERGLADES THAT THE WATER, WHICH UNDER HIGH FLOW CONDITIONS CAME OUT FROM SEVERAL REGIONS OF THE SOUTHERN END OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE AND MOVED, ACCORDING TO THE HISTORICAL RECORDS IN THE 1850'S -- FROM -- I THINK IT WAS CAPTAIN JACKSON -- SORT OF PUNTING ACROSS THE SOUTHERN PART OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, TALKED ABOUT WATER FLOWING TEN MILES WIDE, ABOUT A LARGE SECTION OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, AND THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1219 WOULD HAVE MOVED DOWN THROUGH PORTIONS OF, OBVIOUSLY, THROUGH EAA, BUT ALSO ALL THE WAY DOWN THROUGH PARTS 2 -- OR 3, EXCUSE ME. Q. SO, YOUR BELIEF IS THAT 3 -- WCA-3 IS THE MOST REPRESENTATIVE OF THE HISTORICAL FLOW PATTERNS IN THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, I'M NOT SAYING TODAY THAT IT FLOWS THAT WAY, I'M SAYING THE SOUTH CENTRAL PORTION OF THAT -- THE EVERGLADES ITSELF IS -- THE HYDROLOGIC SYSTEM IS TOTALLY UNLIKE WHAT IT WAS. Q. WELL, WHAT ARE YOU TELLING ME THEN ABOUT WCA-3? A. WCA-3A, BECAUSE OF ITS SIZE, BECAUSE OF ITS LOCATION, BECAUSE OF THE WATER -- THE WAY THE WATER IS DISTRIBUTED, STILL IN MY MIND, REPRESENTS A VERY -- REPRESENTS PROBABLY AS CLOSE AS WE HAVE IN THE CENTRAL PART OF THE EVERGLADES, AN AREA THAT IS BIG ENOUGH, EVEN THOUGH IT IS SURROUNDED BY CANALS AND DIKES, REPRESENTS WHAT THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES WAS. THAT'S WHAT I'M TELLING YOU. THERE ARE SMALL SECTIONS IN 2A. THERE ARE THE CENTER OF 1A, WHICH I THINK, AS I SAID, IS RAINFALL DRIVEN; THAT IS PROBABLY THE CLOSEST WE'RE GOING TO GET TO WHAT IT'S BEEN IN THE LAST THOUSAND YEARS, BECAUSE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1220 NOTHING HAS HAPPENED TO THAT, OTHER THAN JUST NATURAL EFFECTS. SO, THAT GIVES YOU A REPRESENTATIVE PIECE OF WHEN WE DID OUR SURVEYS IN THERE, WE LOOKED AT THE VEGETATION. WE LOOKED AT SOME -- IT GIVES YOU SOME IDEA OF WHAT THAT SOUTH CENTRAL PORTION OF THE GLADES WAS LIKE PRIOR TO GOING INTO THE PARK ITSELF. Q. WOULD IT BE -- DO YOU BELIEVE IT WOULD BE SIMILAR TO THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES IN TERMS OF BIOLOGY AND SOILS, AS WELL? A. IN THE VERY INTERIORS, THE SOILS COULD BE SOMEWHAT REPRESENTATIVE. IN TERMS OF THE BIOLOGY AND SO FORTH, IT HAS ALSO BEEN ALTERED HYDROLOGICALLY. IT'S NO LONGER THE SAME. THERE IS NO PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES, THAT I CAN THINK OF, OTHER THAN THE CENTER OF 1A, THAT IS HYDROLOGICALLY THE SAME. Q. SO, IT'S NOT HYDROLOGICALLY THE SAME. IS IT BIOLOGICALLY THE SAME? A. IT CAN'T BE BIOLOGICALLY THE SAME IF IT'S -- IF YOU'RE ASKING BACK TO HISTORICAL TIMES. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THE SOIL WOULD BE SIMILAR? A. WELL, THE SOIL TYPE IS SIMILAR. Q. WHAT ABOUT THE MAKEUP OF THE SOIL? A. THAT'S KIND OF VAGUE. I MEAN, THE MAKEUP OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1221 THE SOIL -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT. Q. THE AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN IT. A. YEAH, BY AND LARGE, I THINK IT'S REPRESENTATIVE OF THIS. THERE MAY BE SOME -- IF THIS -- IF YOU'RE TALKING -- STILL TALKING ABOUT THE CENTER PORTION I'M TALKING ABOUT, I THINK IT'S REPRESENTATIVE. THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT HAS -- I THINK IT WOULD BE -- IT WOULD OSCILLATE WITHIN THE -- YOU KNOW, EVERY SYSTEM HAS WITHIN IT, A CERTAIN BOUNDARY THAT IT WOULD OSCILLATE WITHIN, DEPENDING UPON FIRES AND CONDITIONS AND SO FORTH. Q. WHAT ABOUT THE WATER QUALITY, WOULD THAT BE SIMILAR IN YOUR MIND? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WATER QUALITY? Q. RIGHT. A. I CAN'T SPEAK TO EVERY ASPECT OF IT. BY AND LARGE, AS I SAID, IF WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE INTERIOR CENTER PORTION OF IT--- Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT NUTRIENTS. A. BUT ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT THAT INTERIOR, WHAT I'M CALLING THE -- I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR STRUCTURE, FOR EXAMPLE, I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THE SOUTH CENTRAL PART. OH, NUTRIENTS, PROBABLY DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1222 -- WOULD PROBABLY BE, DEPENDING ON WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT -- I MEAN, WHAT NUTRIENTS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE WATER, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT SOIL, ARE WE TALKING--- Q. RIGHT NOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WATER, SURFACE WATER, OR WATER COLUMN, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NUTRIENT LEVELS IN THAT WATER. YOU TOLD ME THAT THE SOILS WOULD BE SIMILAR WITH REGARD TO THEIR LEVEL OF NUTRIENTS TO THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES, AND NOW I'M ASKING ABOUT THE WATER. A. I'D SAY IT WOULD BE, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT PORTION, I THINK IT WOULD BE REPRESENTATIVE OF -- OR -- YEAH, AS REPRESENTATIVE AS WE COULD GET TO THAT. Q. WHAT ABOUT BIOLOGICALLY, NOW? A. BIOLOGICALLY IS A BIG -- IT'S A BIG AREA. WHAT DO YOU MEAN, BIOLOGICALLY? Q. WELL, PERIPHYTON, WE'LL START WITH THAT. A. IT WOULD BE MY OPINION THAT IT WOULD HAVE -- IT WOULD HAVE REPRESENTATIVE PERIPHYTON, PROBABLY. MR. GREEN: LET ME OBJECT AND JUST STATE -- I'M NOT TRYING TO CAUSE ANY PROBLEMS. THE PROBLEM I'VE GOT IS YOU'RE ASKING WHETHER THAT AREA IS REPRESENTATIVE, AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE ESTABLISHED, REPRESENTATIVE OF DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1223 WHAT? MR. REID: HISTORICAL EVERGLADES. MR. GREEN: IN THAT AREA? MR. REID: RIGHT. MR. GREEN: BUT PROFESSOR RICHARDSON HAS ALREADY DESCRIBED THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. MR. REID: I UNDERSTAND. MR. GREEN: OKAY. Q. (BY MR. REID) GENERALLY SPEAKING, YOU CAN'T MAKE ANY GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT THE BIOLOGY OF THE AREA? A. WELL, MY -- WE'VE DONE A LITTLE BIT LESS SAMPLING, TO SAY THE LEAST, IN THAT AREA, BUY MY HELICOPTER SURVEYS INTO THERE, AND MY SAMPLINGS, WE TOOK CORES FROM THERE, IN TERMS OF PEAT ACCRETION RATES, PHOSPHORUS STORAGE RATES, AND SO FORTH, TO GET SOME IDEA OF WHAT THOSE AREAS WERE LIKE, AND TRY TO COMPARE THEM, BECAUSE WE NOW -- WE REALIZED THAT THEY WERE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM NORTH TO SOUTH. SO, AS I SAID, I THINK THAT -- THAT'S WHY I MADE MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT, THAT FOR THAT PARTICULAR REGION, ALBEIT, IT IS THE CENTRAL PORTION, THAT I THINK IT IS AS GOOD A REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT WE HAVE IN THE EVERGLADES FOR THAT REGION. IT STILL HAS DEEPER PEAT IN SOME PLACES. Q. DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW WHAT THE CONCENTRATIONS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1224 OF PHOSPHORUS WERE, IN EITHER SOIL OR WATER IN THIS AREA YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. OH, LET ME THINK. I DON'T--- MR. GREEN: EXCUSE ME, DO YOU MEAN -- OBJECT TO THE FORM, WHEN? MR. REID: WHENEVER HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORIC EVERGLADES IN THIS AREA. A. HISTORICALLY, YOU MEAN, OR--- MR. REID: NO, I ACTUALLY, THAT'S -- YOU MISINTERPRETED MY QUESTION, AND I ASSUMED YOUR MISINTERPRETATION. I DIDN'T ASK YOU ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORICALLY. I ASKED HIM WHAT CURRENTLY THE--- MR. GREEN: I'M SORRY. MR. REID: PHOSPHORUS--- MR. GREEN: YEAH, I JUST THOUGHT YOU MEANT -- OKAY. MR. REID: I THOUGHT YOU WERE JUMPING ON ME AGAIN ABOUT THE HISTORY, AND -- NO, THIS IS CURRENT. BASED ON THE WORK THAT HE'S DONE, I'M ASKING HIM WHAT IS -- CURRENTLY WHAT ARE THE RATES. WITNESS: SO, REPHRASE THE QUESTION, AND LET ME START AGAIN. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1225 MR. REID: YES. Q. (BY MR. REID) I'M INTERESTED IN THE WATER QUALITY -- IN THE PHOSPHORUS LEVELS IN SOIL AND WATER IN THIS AREA THAT YOU BELIEVE IS SIMILAR TO THE HISTORIC EVERGLADES, THE AREA WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. A. I CAN'T GIVE YOU THE EXACT FIGURE, BUT I CAN GIVE YOU SOME GENERAL FIGURES. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT OUR SURVEYS. WE'VE COLLECTED SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND NUMBERS OR SOMETHING. Q. SURE. A. THE SOIL CONCENTRATIONS WOULD BE, I THINK -- AROUND AVERAGE, THEY COULD RUN ANYWHERE FROM FOUR TO SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. CAN YOU TELL ME PARTS PER BILLION, JUST SO I UNDERSTAND BETTER? A. WELL, THAT'S PARTS PER MILLION--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THAT'S WHAT THE SOIL CONCENTRATIONS WOULD BE IN. YOU WOULDN'T WANT THEM IN PARTS PER BILLION. THERE ARE TOO MANY PARTS PER BILLION. Q. OKAY. TELL ME THEN WHAT PARTS PER MILLION AGAIN; WHAT NUMBERS DID YOU SAY? A. ROUGHLY IN THE FOUR HUNDRED TO SIX HUNDRED PARTS PER MILLION, MICROGRAMS PER GRAMS, OR MILLIGRAMS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1226 PER KILOGRAM. Q. AND WHAT -- AND THAT'S PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS IN THE SOIL, AND--- A. IN THE SOIL AND THE UPPER SURFACE OF THE SOIL, MAYBE THE TOP TEN CENTIMETERS. WHICH IS--- Q. AND -- I'M SORRY. A. I'M SORRY. Q. AND WHAT ABOUT THE WATER? A. I DON'T REMEMBER, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT TAKEN WATER SAMPLES IN 3A IN A LONG TIME. I CAN'T REMEMBER, SO I -- YOU KNOW, IT'S--- Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A BALLPARK? A. TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE PARTS PER BILLION, SOMEWHERE IN THERE. Q. PARTS PER? A. BILLION. Q. OKAY. A. IT REALLY DEPENDS, OF COURSE, ON WHERE YOU TAKE THOSE SAMPLES. Q. SURE. NOW, ARE THERE ANY OTHER REGIONS THAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER IN DIVIDING UP THE EVERGLADES, OR HAVE WE TOUCHED ON THEM ALL? A. WELL, NO, WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THE PARK. Q. WOULD THAT BE THE NEXT REGION? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1227 A. YEAH, THAT WOULD BE -- YES, THAT WOULD BE THE NEXT REGION. AND I GAINED ACCESS TO THE PARK THIS JUNE--- Q. SO, I'M TOLD. A. ---FINALLY, AND SURVEYED THE PARK FOR APPROXIMATELY A WEEK, JUST A FEW DAYS -- I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. AND SO IN OUR SURVEY OF THE PARK, WE BASICALLY GOT A CHANCE TO LOOK AT VEGETATION AND SOILS AND SOME WATER AND SOME OTHER ASPECTS. Q. DO YOU CONSIDER THE PARK TO BE A NATURALLY DIVIDED -- OR REGION OF THE EVERGLADES? IS IT DIFFERENT FROM WCA-3, FOR INSTANCE? A. I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU MEANT BY DIVIDED. DO YOU MEAN STRUCTURALLY DIVIDED, OR--- Q. NO. WELL, YOU -- WE STARTED BY YOUR TELLING ME THAT THE EVERGLADES, YOU CAN'T LOOK AT THE EVERGLADES AS A SINGLE BODY AT THIS POINT--- A. YEAH. Q. ---AND YOU'VE BEEN DESCRIBING -- OR I GUESS HISTORICALLY AS WELL. IS THAT CORRECT? A. HISTORICALLY, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT, TOO, YES. Q. AND SO YOU WERE TELLING ME YOUR VIEW OF HOW YOU SPLIT IT UP, AND NOW WE'RE DOWN TO THE PARK, AND DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1228 I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT, IS THAT -- IS THAT JUST A, YOU KNOW, GEOPOLITICAL DIVISION, OR IS THAT A SCIENTIFIC DIVISION, BASED ON SOMETHING? A. WELL, IT'S DEFINITELY A GEOPOLITICAL DIVISION--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT--- Q. THAT'S FINE. A. ---THE STATE AND THE FEDS. Q. BUT SCIENTIFICALLY, IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT, WOULD YOU CONSIDER THAT TO BE SEPARATE FROM ANY OF THE OTHERS? A. WELL, YOU'VE GOT THREE THINGS THERE. YOU'VE GOT IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT, IN TERMS OF SCIENTIFICALLY, WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT ME TO ADDRESS? Q. SCIENTIFICALLY. A. SCIENTIFICALLY, IT IS DIFFERENT, IN THE SENSE THAT IT'S THE SHALLOWEST PEAK AREA IN ITS OUTCROPS. IT HAS -- IT'S THE SOUTHERNMOST REGION FROM LAKE OKEECHOBEE, ALMOST SEVENTY MILES SOUTH. Q. OUTCROPS OF LIMESTONE? A. LIMESTONE. IT HAS, TO THE SOUTHERN END, MANGROVES. IT HAS SALINE INFLUENCES TO THE SOUTH. IN OTHER WORDS, IT HAS SOME MARINE INFLUENCES. ITS DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1229 VEGETATION IS MUCH SHORTER, MUCH MORE NUTRIENT LIMITED, AND I WOULD EXPECT THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, THAN THE OTHER REGIONS TO THE NORTH. IT HAS SOME OF THE SAME SPECIES, ALTHOUGH, AS I SAID, THEY'RE IN A MUCH MORE DIMINUTIVE FORM. AND IT ALSO HAS SOME VARIETY OF VEGETATION. IT HAS ONE DEEP PEAT ZONE THAT I WAS ABLE TO SEE. IT PROBABLY HAD SEVERAL MORE OF THE SLOUGH AREA. BUT IT HAS A LOT OF VERY SHALLOW SOILS. AND IT HAS, AS I SAID, THE MARINE INFLUENCE TO THE SOUTH. THE SOILS, ALSO, IN MANY PARTS THAT WE SAW, ARE NOT STRICTLY PEAT. THEY'RE SORT OF A CALCITE BASED MARL, WHICH GIVES IT A MUCH HIGHER BULK DENSITY, SO IT'S QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT IN ITS GEOLOGIC BASE, ITS WATER, AND EVEN SOME VEGETATIVE COMPONENTS. Q. DID YOU DO -- DID YOU -- STRIKE THAT -- DID YOU FIND ANY AREA OF THE PARK THAT YOU BELIEVE REPRESENTS OR IS SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'LL CALL THE HISTORIC EVERGLADES FOR THAT REGION? A. WELL, I WOULD SAY THE CENTRAL PORTIONS, AND SOME OF THE SOUTHERN PORTIONS THAT I SAW, WOULD BE WHAT HAS EXISTED HISTORICALLY. I CAN'T SAY IF THE VEGETATION OR THE WILDLIFE MATCH HISTORICAL DENSITIES OR NUMBERS, PRIMARILY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T -- I DIDN'T HAVE ANY PRIOR -- WELL, LET ME REPHRASE THAT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1230 I'D SAY IT WOULD REPRESENT, AS CLOSE AS WE HAVE, JUST LIKE THE CENTRAL PORTION 3A, TO HISTORICAL CONDITIONS. Q. DID YOU -- STRIKE THAT. WOULD THAT BE TRUE WITH REGARD TO SOIL, NUTRIENT CONTENT OF SOIL, AND OF WATER? A. I WOULD SAY FOR THE SOIL, IT REPRESENTS FAIRLY CLOSE TO HISTORICAL SOIL NUMBERS. THEY'RE VERY TYPICALLY NEAR WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER BACKGROUND OR BE -- NOT BELOW -- BUT BACKGROUND LEVELS. THERE ARE A FEW EXCEPTIONS THAT I FOUND WHEN WE DID OUR SURVEY; BUT, BY AND LARGE, THE AREA WAS PRETTY MUCH IN THE BACKGROUND. Q. WITH REGARD TO SOIL? A. WITH REGARD TO SOIL. Q. HOW ABOUT WATER? A. THE WATER CONDITIONS THE SAME, WE ANALYZED -- THE FEW DAYS THAT WE WERE THERE, WE ANALYZED WATER CONDITIONS, SURFACE WATER CONDITIONS COMING INTO THOSE ZONES THAT WE ANALYZED. AND FOR THAT AREA, WHICH -- AGAIN, WHICH IS DISTINCT FROM THE OTHER AREAS, AS I SAID BEFORE, IS THE TIP, THAT'S PROBABLY THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED AREA OF ALL OF THE GLADES. Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. WELL, IT'S AT THE TIP OF SEVENTY MILES OF--- DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1231 Q. NO, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY NUTRIENT LIMITED, THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED OF ALL OF THE EVERGLADES? A. IT HAS THE LEAST AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN IT. Q. SO, THAT NUTRIENTS, A LITTLE -- LESS AMOUNTS OF NUTRIENTS WOULD HAVE A GREATER IMPACT THERE THAN IN OTHER AREAS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. A LESS AMOUNT. Q. A LOWER LEVEL OF NUTRIENTS WOULD HAVE A GREATER IMPACT IN THIS AREA THAN IN OTHER AREAS--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. ---THAT AREN'T AS NUTRIENT LIMITED? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. YOU'LL HAVE TO RE -- A LOWER LEVEL -- YOU MEAN IF WE TOOK LESS AND LESS NUTRI -- TOOK MORE AND MORE NUTRIENTS OUT--- Q. NO. A. ---THEN YOU WOULD HAVE--- Q. THE SAME AMOUNT -- I'M SORRY. THE SAME AMOUNT OF NUTRIENTS IN THIS AREA, WOULD HAVE A GREATER IMPACT, THAN IN AREAS WHICH WERE NOT AS NUTRIENT LIMITED? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT NUTRIENT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHAT FORM. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1232 Q. PHOSPHORUS. MR. BURGESS: SAME OBJECTION. A. IN WHAT FORM, I MEAN? Q. PICK IT. A. WELL, TOTAL PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. A. YOU WANT TO LOOK AT TOTAL PHOSPHORUS? Q. OKAY, LET'S PICK -- LET'S USE THAT. A. SO, WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION ON THAT? Q. MY QUESTION IS -- I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY WHEN YOU SAY IS THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED PORTION OF THE EVERGLADES. AND, TO ME, I THINK WHAT I'M HEARING IS THAT IF YOU TOOK THE SAME AMOUNT OF NUTRIENT, AND INTRODUCED IT TO THAT SYSTEM, YOU WOULD HAVE A GREATER EFFECT THAN IF YOU INTRODUCED IT TO A SYSTEM THAT WAS LESS NUTRIENT LIMITED. MR. GREEN: THAT'S NOT A QUESTION AS IT IS. I'M OBJECTING TO THE FORM. Q. (BY MR. REID) IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. SO, THEN THE QUESTION IS, IF I ADDED NUTRIENTS -- WHAT IS THE QUESTION? SORRY, GO AHEAD. Q. IT'S REAL SIMPLE. YOU USED THE WORD--- A. RIGHT. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1233 Q. ---YOU USED THE PHRASE THAT THIS IS THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED. A. RIGHT. Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT TO MEAN SOMETHING. AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IF MY UNDERSTANDING IS CORRECT, OR IF I'M MISUNDERSTANDING IT. TO ME, THAT MEANS THAT IN A -- IN THIS SYSTEM, SYSTEM A, WHICH IS--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---MORE, OR MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED, IF YOU TOOK THE SAME AMOUNT OF NUTRIENT, AND INTRODUCED IT THERE, YOU WOULD SEE A GREATER IMPACT THAN IF YOU INTRODUCED IT INTO AN AREA THAT WAS LESS NUTRIENT LIMITED? A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'D SEE -- THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE IT -- YOU DESCRIBE IT AS AN IMPACT. I WOULD -- YOU WOULD HAVE CHANGE IN GROWTH, AND MAYBE YOU WOULD HAVE A CHANGE IN SOME ASPECTS, BUT IT DEPENDS ON THE FORM. YOU COULD PUT TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WAS MOSTLY ORGANIC, AND YOU MIGHT NOT SEE A CHANGE. Q. WELL, WHAT DID YOU MEAN THEN? WHAT WERE YOU -- WHAT WAS INCLUDED IN THE WORD NUTRIENT, WHEN YOU SAID THIS IS THE MOST NUTRIENT LIMITED AREA OF THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE WATER COLUMN, FOR DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1234 EXAMPLE. THE LEVELS OF NUTRIENTS COMING IN THROUGH THE STRUCTURES, FOR EXAMPLE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---WERE -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY -- NINE, TEN, EIGHT, SEVEN PARTS PER BILLION. Q. SO, BY THAT, DO YOU JUST MEAN THAT IT HAS FEWER NUTRIENTS OR LESS NUTRIENTS THAN THE REST OF THE EVERGLADES? A. IT HAS THE SAME RAINFALL NUTRIENTS, PRETTY MUCH--- Q. OKAY. A. ---THAT MOST OF THE EVERGLADES WOULD HAVE. IT HAS -- THE FLOW COMING INTO THAT, COMPARED TO SOME OF THE OTHER STRUCTURES WE'VE LOOKED AT, GOING DOWN THROUGH, THERE ARE LESS NUTRIENTS IN THE INFLOW STRUCTURES THAN THE OTHER SYSTEMS, AND IN THE WATER COLUMN, DUE TO THE ORGANISMS THAT ARE THERE, AND THE FACT THAT IT'S SO FAR DOWN, ESSENTIALLY, THAT THERE'S VERY FEW NUTRIENTS IN THAT SYSTEM. SO I'M SAYING THAT SYSTEM, THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THAT SYSTEM SHOWS THAT IT'S, IN FACT, MORE NUTRIENT LIMITED. THE SAWGRASS IS SHORTER. THE--- Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A SYNONYM FOR NUTRIENT LIMITED? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1235 A. I HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT. A SYNONYM FOR NUTRIENT LIMITED? Q. YEAH. EXPRESS IT A DIFFERENT WAY, IF YOU CAN. A. IT USUALLY -- IT COMES FROM LIEBIG'S EARLY STUDIES THAT DEMONSTRATE THAT ORGANISMS -- A LIMITING FACTOR IS ONE THAT, IN FACT, RESTRICTS OR RETARDS THE GROWTH OF ORGANISMS. IT IN A SENSE LIMITS IT -- IT DOES NOT REACH ITS FULL POTENTIAL, DUE TO THIS LIMITATION--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THAT'S FROM THE GERMAN LIEBIG, 1840'S. Q. I NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU FOUND IN THE SOILS THAT YOU SAMPLED IN THE PARK. A. BY AND LARGE, WE FOUND PHOSPHORUS. Q. PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION? A. PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION; BY AND LARGE, WE FOUND BACKGROUND LEVELS ON ALL BUT, I THINK -- I THINK WE DID THIRTY-EIGHT SITES, AND I THINK WE FOUND ALL -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY. I'D HAVE TO LOOK BACK AT THE SHEETS. WE FOUND BACKGROUND LEVELS, EXTREMELY LOW LEVELS ON ALL BUT TWO OR THREE, AND I COULD BE WRONG. THERE MIGHT BE TWO, THERE MIGHT BE FOUR, I CAN'T REMEMBER. Q. AND WHAT WERE THE RA -- WHAT WAS THE RANGE? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1236 A. OH, TWO HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, TO SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, MAYBE. THAT'S BEEN THE NORMAL RANGE. Q. AND YOU MEAN PARTS PER MILLION, DON'T YOU? MR. BURGESS: SAME. A. SAME THING. Q. OKAY, TWO HUNDRED TO FOUR HUNDRED? A. NO. I SAID TWO HUNDRED TO, SAY, SIX HUNDRED, FIVE HUNDRED, MAYBE. Q. TWO HUNDRED TO FIVE HUNDRED? MR. BURGESS: MICROGRAMS PER GRAM? A. MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, PARTS PER MILLION. Q. THANK YOU, FOR THOSE OF US THAT ARE SCIENTIFICALLY DISABLED. AND WHAT ABOUT THE SURFACE -- THE WATER? A. IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I'VE LOOKED AT IT, AND I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE DATA. MY RECOLLECTION IS -- I THINK WE FOUND SOME AS LOW AS FOUR OR FIVE PARTS PER BILLION, AND SOME AS HIGH AS -- I CAN'T REMEMBER -- TWENTY, THIRTY PARTS PER BILLION, IS MY GUESS. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE DATA, BUT I THINK THAT'S--- Q. THIS -- CAN YOU GIVE ME ANY IDEA OF WHY THERE WAS THIS RANGE, OR WAS IT GEOGRAPHICAL? A. IT WAS GEOGRAPHICAL. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1237 Q. AND CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT TO WHAT? A. AGAIN, AS I SAID, WITHOUT MY DOCUMENTS FROM IT, I CAN'T REMEMBER ALL THE DETAILS. I'M DOING THIS FROM MEMORY. BUT, SURPRISINGLY, ALL THE VALUES TO THE NORTH, THAT I REMEMBER, WERE EXTREMELY LOW. WE FOUND ONE NUMBER DEEP IN THE SOUTH, SOUTHERN END, THAT WE TOOK -- I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THE MAP -- BUT IT WAS QUITE FAR SOUTH, WAY SOUTH IN THE PARK, I THINK THAT WAS JUST ONE SITE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---AND THAT'S NOT UNUSUAL. YOU MAY FIND A SITE THAT IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT SITE. Q. MAYBE A BEAR WAS THERE, OR SOMETHING? A. PROBABLY NOT A BEAR, BUT SOMETHING HAS BEEN THERE. Q. WELL, NOT A BEAR, BUT -- NOT DOWN THERE, YOU'RE RIGHT. OKAY. A. BUT, BY AND LARGE, THE NUMBERS WERE LOW. Q. I'M CURIOUS AS TO WHY YOU HAVE SUCH GOOD RECALL OF THE SOILS, BUT NOT SUCH GOOD RECALL OF THE WATER TESTING THAT YOU DID. IS THERE SOME REASON FOR THAT? A. WELL, THE WATER WAS DONE IMMEDIATELY, FOR ONE THING, AND WE DID THAT AND TURNED THAT DATA OVER A LONG DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1238 TIME AGO. Q. LAST JUNE? A. WELL, WE DID IT IN JUNE, BUT WE TURNED IT OVER WITHIN LAST FALL. Q. OKAY. AND THE SOIL, WHEN DID YOU DO THAT? A. WELL, WE'VE BEEN DOING IT. WE'VE BEEN ANALYZING IT. WE'VE BEEN DOING IT--- Q. OH, YOU'VE CONTINUED TO ANALYZE THE SOIL? A. RIGHT. Q. YOU DON'T HAVE THE WATER ANYMORE? A. NO, I -- YOU MEAN DO I PERSONALLY--- Q. NO, YOUR LAB, OR WHEREVER YOU ANALYZE. WHEN YOU SAY YOU TURNED IT OVER, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? YOU GAVE IT TO SOMEBODY ELSE? A. YES, THIS WAS ALL -- WE HAD TO DO THIS UNDER -- I FORGET WHAT THE AGREEMENT IS -- BUT WE TURNED THE NUMBERS OVER TO THE--- Q. OH, THE NUMBERS YOU TURNED OVER? A. YEAH, THE NUMBERS, YES, YES, YES, THE NUMBERS. Q. AND YOU KEPT THE WATER? A. WELL, I'M SURE THE WATER HAS BEEN--- Q. OKAY. A. ---DISPOSED OF. Q. BUT THE SOIL YOU KEPT? DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1239 A. YES, WE'VE BEEN ANALYZING THE SOILS. WE'VE BEEN DOING ANALYSES ON THOSE. Q. OKAY. ANY OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT THIS LAST AREA THAT YOU'VE BEEN DESCRIBING, THE ENP? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, THE ONLY THING, AS I SAID, IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER REGIONS, AND IT HAS BEEN, AND THE SOILS ARE QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THEY'RE SO SHALLOW, AND, IN MANY PLACES, ALMOST NONEXISTENT COMPARED TO THE NORTHERN PARTS. Q. ANY OTHER AREAS? A. AND ONE OTHER THING I MIGHT MENTION IS THERE IS -- WE DID FIND, WHEN WE TOOK SOME CORES THERE, THAT THERE WAS EVIDENCE OF ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS THERE. WE HAVE FOUND SOME REDUCED SOIL CONDITIONS INDICATED BY -- AND THESE WERE PRIMARILY DOWN IN THE -- WAY IN THE SOUTHERN END OF THE MANGROVE AREAS AND SO FORTH, BUT SULFIDE AND INTRUSIONS OF MARINE WATER. Q. WOULD THAT BE--- COURT REPORTER: I'M SORRY, COULD YOU REPEAT THAT? A. INTRUSIONS OF MARINE WATER. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ANAEROBIC CONDITION THAT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1240 YOU FOUND DOWN THERE WAS RELATED TO THE FACT THAT IT WAS CONTIGUOUS TO THE OCEAN? A. I BELIEVE IN THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF THAT PART OF THE PARK, THERE ARE REDUCED CONDITIONS THERE, A RESULT OF SULFUR BROUGHT IN FROM EARLIER TIMES, AND MARINE INPUTS, YEAH. IT WOULD BE -- IT WOULD BE TYPICAL FOR THAT SYSTEM, THROUGHOUT, TO HAVE REDUCED CONDITIONS. Q. WHAT SYSTEM? A. THE EVERGLADES PARK SYSTEM, THE WHOLE EVERGLADES. Q. THE WHOLE EVERGLADES, TO HAVE REDUCED--- A. SOIL CONDITIONS. Q. OKAY, ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE PARK, IN THIS OVERVIEW? A. IT WAS BEAUTIFUL. IT DID NOT LOOK -- IT LOOKED ABOUT WHAT I THOUGHT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE FROM THE PICTURES I HAD SEEN, WHAT I HAD TOURED MANY YEARS EARLIER. Q. ANY OTHER AREAS, OR HAVE YOU GIVEN ME ALL THE DIVISIONS THAT YOU WOULD MAKE IN THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, THERE'S THE BIG CYPRESS, BUT THAT'S NOT THE EVERGLADES, PER SE. Q. OKAY. DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1241 A. I MEAN, I'VE DONE SOME WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT ON THE BIG CYPRESS. Q. I ASSUME YOU WOULD CONSIDER THE EAA A DIFFERENT AREA, A SEPARATE AREA? A. IT'S A SEPARATE AREA, YES. Q. IS IT SIMILAR TO ANY OF THE OTHERS? A. IN WHAT WAY SIMILAR? Q. IN ANY WAY, IN TERMS OF THE WAY THAT WE'RE DES -- THE WAY YOU'RE DESCRIBING THIS DIVISION OF THE EVERGLADES. A. WELL, IT IS ONLY SIMILAR IN THE SENSE THAT IT HAS THE SAME TYPES OF CANAL AND STRUCTURES AND IT HAS SOME OF THE SAME PHYSICAL BOUNDARIES ON IT, IN TERMS OF ITS -- ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ITS ECOLOGY? Q. YEAH. A. WELL, IT IS ACTUALLY, SURPRISINGLY, MORE SIMILAR THAN I ORIGINALLY HAD THOUGHT IN ONE SENSE. IT IS, PRIMARILY, A MONOCULTURE OF GRASSES. THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS. BUT, I MEAN, IN OTHER WORDS, IT IS IN MANY RESPECTS, IT IS A MONOCULTURE. IT IS A SORT OF AGRI-ECOSYSTEM, BUT IT IS FUNCTIONING, IN SOME REGARDS -- WHICH SOME PEOPLE WOULD BE SURPRISED ABOUT -- BUT SUGARCANE IS A GRASS SPECIES THAT DOES MANY OF THE SAME THINGS THAT SOME OF THE NATIVE SPECIES DO. I'M NOT DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1242 EQUILIBRATING THAT ECOLOGICALLY, AND GIVING A JUDGMENT ON THAT, EXCEPT THAT IT HAS MANY OF THE SAME FUNCTIONS. IT TRANSPIRES, IT GROWS, PRODUCES, SO -- BUT IT IS NO LONGER -- IT NO LONGER RESEMBLES THE HISTORICAL EVERGLADES. IT'S AN AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITY. Q. ANY OTHER AREAS THAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE SEPARATE OR DIFFERENT FROM? A. WELL, PART OF -- IF YOU WANT TO GO ON THE WHOLE LANDSCAPE BASE, THE LAST PART OF THAT IS, OF COURSE, IS THE LAKE OKEECHOBEE ITSELF, AND THE KISSIMMEE COMPONENT, WHICH IS CRITICAL TO THE VIABILITY OF THE EVERGLADES PROPER. Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK IN WHAT IS CALLED THE WESTERN BASIN, THAT AREA; OR DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WESTERN BASIN IS? A. YEAH, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. NOT -- NOT -- REFRESH MY MEMORY TO MAKE SURE THAT I'M NOT EXCLUDING IT. Q. IT'S JUST TO THE WEST OF THE AGRICULTURAL AREA. IT'S NOT INCLUDED IN THE SWIM PLAN. A. NO, I REALLY HAVEN'T DONE ANY WORK THERE. Q. NOW, IN DEVISING A REGULATORY SCHEME FOR THE EVERGLADES, I TAKE IT YOU WOULD ASSUME, OR YOU WOULD BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THESE DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1243 VARYING AREAS? A. ARE YOU ASKING THE DIFFERENCES OF THOSE AREAS? Q. YEAH. A. YES. Q. AND, FOR INSTANCE, YOU COULDN'T -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. WOULD A REGULATOR NEED TO DETERMINE WHAT THE BACKGROUND LEVEL OF, SAY, PHOSPHORUS, IN THE SOIL AND WATER WOULD BE? WOULD THAT BE A HELPFUL THING FOR A REGULATOR TO KNOW? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM. A. THE BACKGROUND LEVELS OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOILS AND WATER? Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, IT WOULD BE ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT ONE MIGHT USE. IT WOULDN'T BE THE TOTAL PIECE OF INFORMATION. Q. HAVE YOU ATTEMPTED TO DETERMINE THAT AS PART OF YOUR WORK? A. THE BACKGROUND? Q. THE BACKGROUND LEVELS, YEAH. A. FOR REGULATION? Q. WELL, FOR -- NO, FORGETTING REGULATION A MINUTE -- HAVE YOU, IN YOUR WORK, ATTEMPTED TO DETERMINE THE BACKGROUND LEVELS OF SOIL AND WATER DR. RICHARDSON VOLUME III PAGE 1244 PHOSPHORUS? A. WELL, YES, WE HAVE TRIED TO. AND NOW THAT WE HAVE GAINED ACCESS TO THE LOXAHATCHEE AND THE PARK, WE WILL TRYING TO COME UP WITH SORT OF A PICTURE OF THE -- WHAT WE MIGHT CONSIDER THE SOIL BASE -- I'M GOING TO CALL IT THAT -- A SOIL BASE MAP, IN A SENSE OF SOIL CONDITIONS. HOWEVER, DR. REDDY HAS DONE A MUCH MORE GEOGRAPHIC PATTERN ANALYSIS OF THOSE SYSTEMS; BUT WE WILL HAVE MORE DETAIL IN CERTAIN AREAS THAN HE WILL HAVE. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS A BACKGROUND LEVEL THAT COULD BE APPLIED TO THE ENTIRE EVERGLADES? A. NO. MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE LEVELS THAT YOU FOUND IN THE PARK ARE WHAT CAN BE TERMED BACKGROUND LEVELS? MR. GREEN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO FORM. A. WELL, ONLY BY -- AS I SAID, ONLY BY REGION. AS I SAID, THE LEVELS WE FOUND IN THE PARK, I THINK DEMONSTRATE HOW THE SYSTEM HAS WORKED AND FLOWED, AND THEY REPRESENT, BY AND LARGE, WHAT THE PARK HAS BEEN, I