1 STATE OF FLORIDA

DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

2 Case No. 92-3038

92-3039

3 92-3040

4 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, )

a Florida Agricultural Cooperative Marketing )

5 Association, ROTH FARMS, INC., and WEDGWORTH )

FARMS, INC., )

6 and )

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., and UNITED )

7 STATES SUGAR CORPORATION )

and )

8 FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ASSOCIATION, LEWIS )

POPE FARMS, W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and )

9 HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

Petitioners )

10 vs. )

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, )

11 an Agency of the State of Florida, )

Respondent, )

12 and )

MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA, )

13 the UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN and The )

FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL )

14 PROTECTION, The FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, )

The FLORIDA AUDUBON SOCIETY, and The SIERRA )

15 CLUB, )

Intervenors. )

16 __________________________________________________ )

17 99 N.E. 4th Street

Miami, Florida

18 April 8, 1994

9:45 - 1:00 p.m.

21 Deposition of Robert Reimold

22 Taken before Suzanne Fernandez, Notary

Public in and for the State of Florida at Large,

23 pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition filed in

the above cause.

24 - - - - - - -

1 APPEARANCES:

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF:

3 EARL, BLANK, KAVANAUGH & STOTTS, P.A.

One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636

4 Two South Biscayne Blvd.

Miami, Florida 33131

5 BY: Jonathan L. Gaines, Esq.

6 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:

7 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

601 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

8 Eighth Floor, Rm. 866

Washington, DC 20004 Florida

9 BY: Stephen M. Macfarlane, Esq.

10 ALSO PRESENT:

Don Jones

14 - - - - - - -

15 I N D E X

Witness Direct Cross Redirect Recross

16 Dr. Reimold 3 155 158 158

1 Thereupon:

2 ROBERT J. REIMOLD,

3 was called as a witness by the United States, and

4 after being first duly sworn, was examined and

5 testified under oath as follows:

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

8 Q. Would you state your name for the

9 Record, please.

10 A. Robert James Reimold.

11 Q. Good morning, Doctor Reimold.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. My name is Steve Macfarlane. I'm with

14 the Department of Justice. I'm one of the

15 attorneys representing the federal government and

16 its agencies in this litigation on behalf -- we

17 have intervened on behalf of the South Florida

18 Water Management District in defense of the SWIM

19 plan.

20 Let me ask you, sir, have you ever been

21 deposed before?

22 A. Yes, I have.

23 Q. Approximately how many times?

24 A. Around ten, twelve, something like

25 that.

1 Q. So you're a veteran at this?

2 A. Well --

3 Q. To the extent anybody can be a veteran?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Well, let me say that, as you probably

6 understand, the purpose of this deposition is to

7 learn about the subject matter and the substance

8 of testimony that you may be called to give on

9 behalf of the Petitioners at any final hearing

10 that may take place in this litigation.

11 If for any reason a question I ask you

12 is unclear to you or you want me to rephrase it,

13 don't hesitate to ask me to do so. I'd be happy

14 to.

15 I know your counsel will object if it

16 is appropriate to do so, and unless he instructs

17 you not to answer, you should go ahead and answer

18 my question, if you can.

19 And any time you want to take a break,

20 please feel free to give a holler and we'll do

21 that; okay.

22 Doctor Reimold, could you -- let's mark

23 that as an exhibit.

24 (Thereupon the document referred to was

25 marked as Government Exhibit No. 1

1 for Identification, a copy of which is

2 attached hereto.)

3 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

4 Q. Doctor Reimold, let me show you what's

5 been marked as Government Exhibit 1, and let me

6 ask you if you have ever seen that before?

7 I will represent that this is an

8 extract of a document that was previously filed in

9 this case by the Petitioners for Sugar Cane League

10 and United States Sugar Corporation.

11 A. I don't think I have ever seen a copy

12 of this before.

13 Q. Okay.

14 Let me ask you, sir, to turn to page

15 15, and do you see your name there?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Doctor Reimold, you have been listed as

18 an expert witness by the Florida Sugar Cane League

19 and United States Sugar who are Petitioners in

20 this action. You're aware of that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the subject matter of your expected

23 testimony as listed on page 15 of the disclosure

24 of expert and fact witness of Petitioner Florida

25 Sugar Cane League and the United States Sugar

1 Corporation is given as follows: Application of

2 chemical treatment technologies to phosphorus

3 reduction, engineering and feasibility aspects of

4 chemical treatment, environmental impacts of

5 chemical treatment.

6 Doctor Reimold, is that description in

7 accordance with your understanding of what you

8 anticipate giving testimony on at the final

9 hearing in this litigation?

10 A. No, not really.

11 The latter part of it is, i.e. taking

12 information relative to chemical treatment,

13 engineering information, feasibility, jar testing

14 and the like. My expectation was to deal with

15 environmental impact of that treatment.

16 Q. So your understanding is you would only

17 be giving testimony on the environmental impacts

18 of chemical treatment?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. You don't anticipate giving testimony

21 at the final hearing on the engineering or

22 feasibility aspects of chemical treatment?

23 A. Well, only to the extent that they

24 relate to certain aspects of the environmental

25 impact.

1 But I'm a scientist; not an engineer.

2 Q. So does that mean you would not be

3 talking, for example, about the actual

4 construction of a chemical treatment facility?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Would you be giving any testimony about

7 cost estimates or chemical treatment as compared

8 to other treatment technologies?

9 A. Only to the extent, say, regarding to

10 comparing cost of wetlands and other technologies

11 and the size of areas and things like that. But

12 again, looking at the engineering information

13 developed by others and the economic information

14 developed by others to make scientific

15 conclusions; not developing those particular

16 pieces of information myself.

17 Q. Let me just ask a follow-up to what you

18 have said.

19 Am I correct in understanding that your

20 testimony, to the extent you get into cost

21 analysis, would be based upon engineering work

22 done by others?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. All right. Okay.

25 Doctor Reimold, do you have a

1 consultant contract with either the Florida Sugar

2 Cane League, United States Sugar or the law firm

3 of Earl, Blank, Kavanaugh?

4 A. Our company has a contract with Earl,

5 Blank, et cetera, but I don't personally.

6 Q. What is your company, sir?

7 A. Metcalf & Eddy, Incorporated.

8 Q. What is your position?

9 A. I'm the vice-president and national

10 director for environmental quality.

11 Q. And is this contract that you have, is

12 that a written contract?

13 A. Yes, it is, but I have never seen the

14 contract.

15 We have, in a corporation the size of

16 ours, we have people who deal with contracts, and

17 I believe the project manager on this job is

18 Doctor Bowen, whom you have previously met,

19 someone has previously met.

20 So I'm not knowledgeable about the

21 details of the contract.

22 Q. Fair enough.

23 Do you know when approximately your --

24 Metcalf & Eddy entered into this contract with

25 Earl, Blank?

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Okay.

3 Let's enter this as Exhibit 2, please.

4 (Thereupon the document referred to was

5 marked as Government Exhibit No. 2

6 for Identification, a copy of which is

7 attached hereto.)

8 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

9 Q. All right.

10 Doctor Reimold, let me show you what's

11 been marked as Government Exhibit 2 and ask you to

12 identify that, if you can.

13 A. It's a copy of a resume, Metcalf &

14 Eddy's corporate resume of me.

15 Q. Of you. That's your resume?

16 A. Um-hum.

17 Q. And I see you have a Ph.D. in biology

18 and marine science from the University of

19 Delaware?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions

22 about some of the work you have done, Doctor

23 Reimold. I was very interested in looking at the

24 wide variety of things you have been involved in.

25 I see at the bottom of the first page

1 under general background, you're listed as

2 vice-president and national director for

3 environmental quality for Metcalf & Eddy.

4 Can you give me an idea of what you do

5 in that position?

6 A. In that position, my corporate

7 responsibilities relate to dealing with

8 environmental quality issues throughout the firm.

9 Metcalf & Eddy is a firm of over 2,000

10 persons. It's an 87 year old firm, environmental

11 engineering firm, and we have environmental

12 expertise of various kinds; biological, physical,

13 chemical, scientist-types and planner types, as

14 opposed to engineers, and a number of our

15 corporate officers are a preponderance of those in

16 the home office. And my responsibility is to

17 interact with the staff in the various offices to

18 lead projects that deal with environmental quality

19 issues, to deal with particularly problematic

20 areas, to deal with screening new staff, hiring

21 new staff or serving as an expert witness or

22 working on specialized projects that are a little

23 more problematic than just general environmental

24 projects.

25 These projects are sometimes

1 stand-alone projects, work done for federal

2 agencies and municipal and state agencies,

3 regulatory agencies like EPA, Corps of Engineers,

4 U.S. Army, et cetera, private clients, private

5 industry and the like, and also for

6 municipalities.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 Just at the very bottom of the first

9 page there is a description provided on your

10 resume. I guess that also describes some of your

11 duties. And I'll just read it.

12 "He coordinates corporate inter-office

13 staff expertise and project execution of

14 ecological risk assessments, habitat evaluations,

15 and related environmental work assessing potential

16 positive and negative impacts and appropriate

17 clean up levels for various engineered remediation

18 activities." And then it goes on to say that you

19 have a special expertise in wetlands.

20 A. Right.

21 Q. My question, Doctor Reimold, is this:

22 Prior to the present contract between Metcalf &

23 Eddy, and Earl, Blank, Kavanaugh & Stotts, had you

24 ever provided such services in relation to an

25 oligotrophic marsh or ecosystem?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you give me some examples?

3 A. Let's see.

4 A system that's very similar

5 ecologically in terms of a Typha Caladium system

6 is Kawailao which is a wetland in Honolulu or

7 north of Honolulu.

8 This is an approximately 500 acre

9 wetland receiving runoff from agricultural and

10 urban developed areas, subject to some

11 manipulation of water shed management and flood

12 control.

13 Q. Which island is that on?

14 A. Oahu, north of Honolulu.

15 Let's see, other oligotrophic

16 wetlands?

17 Some small areas of Caladium in Puerto

18 Rico relative to environmental assessment of the

19 health of it and the quality of it. Those were

20 being considered for parking lot development by

21 one of the industries, and this is near the town

22 of Humacao, H-U-M-A-C-A-O, in Puerto Rico.

23 I could probably think of others, but

24 I'm trying to answer just that one focused tight

25 question.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Let me ask you, just generally, how

3 would you define a wetland?

4 A. Well, it's an interaction of three

5 principal components: Water, soil and

6 vegetation. And there is a federal definition

7 that a number of us worked on, and I was on the

8 team of people who sat around a conference room in

9 the early '70s to develop that federal definition

10 which I'm sure you've heard other persons recite,

11 but the critical components are making sure that

12 you have water in the right quantity and the right

13 quality and the right periodicity and having soils

14 that are hydric soils. These are soils that will

15 accommodate plants that grow under conditions that

16 are water logged or, in other words, they are

17 submerged at or near the surface for a period of

18 the growing season, and vegetation that will

19 survive under such conditions.

20 For example, you can take vegetation

21 alone. You can plant wetland plants in your front

22 yard, and after a short period of time, they won't

23 live, even if you water them every day because you

24 would have the right vegetation and the right --

25 perhaps the right amount of hydrology, but you

1 would not have the proper soils. So it's a

2 combination of the three factors in order to make

3 a wetland.

4 Q. Any particular soils that are --

5 A. As I said, they are called hydric

6 soils, and there are a variety of soils which are

7 hydric soils, and these are the ones that are

8 identified in the U.S. Department of Agriculture

9 Corps of conservation of various soils.

10 There is a book -- USDA describes these

11 soils in detail.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. In a little more detail.

14 Q. So I guess, let me ask you, it would be

15 your opinion, wouldn't it, that the Everglades

16 fits this description?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. Do you have an opinion whether the

19 Everglades are unique in any way as wetlands?

20 A. Well, the Everglades are like all

21 wetlands. I have a bias that all wetlands are

22 unique, i.e., they are resources of special value,

23 and that's why there has been the international --

24 first national, I'd say, and in more recent times

25 through Ramseys and others, international efforts,

1 focused on wetlands and unique ecosystem.

2 They are unique from a variety

3 standpoint. They are more productive than normal,

4 say, agricultural or forested or upland

5 ecosystems. Relative to, say, the Everglades

6 being the most unique one, I think there is the

7 regional bias everywhere in the world that I have

8 worked, quote, "My one is the most unique one."

9 And the popular media, I think, brings that

10 message across.

11 National Geographic says it's the

12 Everglades. Go back a couple seasons and it was

13 the wetlands in the coast of Georgia.

14 So the public attention and the quote,

15 "unique factor" is kind of a nebulous thing, but

16 as far as ecosystems go, yes, wetlands are unique

17 ecosystems and have a higher standing. That's

18 probably one of the reasons we are all spending

19 this time and that's why there has been federal

20 legislation.

21 Q. We'll get into some of those issues

22 perhaps in a bit more detail later on.

23 Let me ask you a few more questions

24 about some of the things you have done.

25 On page two of your resume, down, let

1 me see, the third bullet from the bottom indicates

2 that you directed the successful environmental and

3 local planning, zoning and permitting for

4 construction of a -- 7-mgd is the abbreviation

5 for?

6 A. Million gallons.

7 Q. That's what I thought.

8 -- water treatment facility for the

9 Massachusetts American Water Company in Hingham,

10 where aesthetic issues had previously halted work

11 on the project.

12 Did this involve -- was this water

13 treatment facility a chemical treatment plant?

14 A. All water treatment facilities are

15 chemical treatment plants.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. All water treatment facilities -- the

18 stuff that you drink today, if it weren't for some

19 form of chemical treatment, you wouldn't be

20 drinking it, so yes.

21 Q. What --

22 A. I think that involves activated carbon,

23 ferric hydroxide. I've forgotten what polymers.

24 There is too many polymers.

25 It involves pulse -- let's see -- some

1 kind of a pulse system. I've forgotten the

2 patented name, but it's a pulsator system, rapid

3 pulsator systems that introduced fine dissolved

4 bubbles at the bottom of the system. Once the

5 chemicals are added, it does the same kind of

6 thing that's been talked about here, i.e., it

7 takes what's in the water and removes it or

8 removes it in a breachable quantity so it's safe

9 for drinking.

10 Q. Did it involve the use of coagulants?

11 A. Yes, that's why I said that.

12 Then there is also -- well, there are a

13 variety of chemicals -- I mentioned the

14 coagulants -- for the purpose of taking out the

15 chemicals.

16 Q. Let me ask you, flip the page, the

17 second bullet from the top, you're listed as

18 having managed preparation of conceptual design

19 for wetlands restoration associated with

20 remediation at a major New England Superfund

21 Site.

22 Can you give me a general outline of

23 the major features of the conceptual design for

24 that?

25 A. Well, this is a site that was extremely

1 contaminated with metals and pesticides. It was a

2 chemical manufacturing and formulation plant. And

3 their practices resulted in the contamination of

4 sediment up to about 18 feet deep in both emerging

5 macrophyte and forested matter and forested

6 wetland of -- how many acres? -- 20, 30-something

7 acres.

8 Q. This involved an existing wetland that

9 had been contaminated?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 So then the objective was, in order to

12 clean up -- the levels were so high, literally

13 what they're doing, and their contract has just

14 been started on, doing the work, but the

15 conceptual design for the remediation was to

16 actually incinerate the soil -- excavate and

17 incinerate, so it's going to be done in segments.

18 As segments are excavated, new soil is brought in,

19 hydric soils, and plants are planted, and

20 hydrology has been planned such that the water for

21 the hydrology is running through a ground water

22 treatment so that you don't recontaminate the soil

23 with bad groundwater.

24 Q. Is this remediation of this wetland or

25 the construction of a new wetland?

1 A. It's like taking the soil out of a

2 room, taking it away a piece at a time and then

3 building it back.

4 Q. Will the wetland that is replaced there

5 be used for treatment of runoff or is it there

6 primarily just restoring the wetland for habitat?

7 A. It'll just be used as a wetland.

8 Q. Have you had experience in the use of

9 constructed wetland to treat water?

10 A. Yeah, for storm water.

11 Q. Can you give me some idea where?

12 A. Well, my most recent project is one in

13 Farmington, Connecticut, west of Hartford.

14 An emergent macrophyte wetland was

15 recreated for the purpose of removing contaminants

16 and nutrient, metals, et cetera, from storm water

17 runoff.

18 Q. Had you had experience with the use of

19 constructed wetlands to treat agricultural

20 constructed wetlands?

21 A. I've had the experience relative to

22 reviewing the literature and the work of others,

23 but not doing the actual design of it myself.

24 Q. How about experience in the use of

25 constructed wetlands to treat water that was

1 discharged into a natural system --

2 A. Well --

3 Q. -- as opposed to --

4 A. -- all waters, treated waters, are

5 discharged into natural systems. Depends what

6 we're going to call natural.

7 We deal with treatment systems from

8 water treatment plants, waste water treatment

9 plants, industrial treatment plants. If they

10 don't go to the municipal sewer, they eventually

11 get to a natural system, i.e., a river, wetland,

12 whatever. So in that sense, yes, I have, where

13 there have been wetlands designed as polishing

14 ponds for the final removal of nutrients after you

15 get most everything out of the -- take everything

16 out to a low enough level where the wetland can

17 achieve efficient removals.

18 Q. Have you had -- let me just ask you,

19 can you give me an example of a constructed

20 wetland that your firm has designed that treated

21 water that was then discharged into a marsh

22 environment?

23 A. I can tell you about where. Somewhere

24 in north Georgia is the most recent one.

25 Paul Bowen -- if this goes to trial,

1 you can ask Paul Bowen about it.

2 It was designed in north Georgia and it

3 has to do with treatment of an industrial

4 facility. And then after treatment in an

5 industrial facility, it goes to a wetland

6 polishing pond before discharge to one of the

7 contributories of the Chattahoochee River.

8 Q. I take it that your firm has

9 recommended constructed wetland as a water

10 treatment strategy?

11 A. Only as a component of it. I mean, I

12 wouldn't want you to say -- to misuse that.

13 Yes, as a component of it where you

14 precede it with appropriate chemicals and physical

15 and biological means, the necessary parts of the

16 treatment.

17 What you have to understand, I don't

18 want to lecture, but in a treatment system,

19 different components do different things. There

20 isn't one system alone that will do it all. And

21 so it's sort of like everything else; a diversity

22 of things in life makes your life better, and a

23 diversity of things here actually results in an

24 appropriate treatment of water to meet the water

25 quality standards and receiving water conditions.

1 Q. Okay. I appreciate the clarification.

2 Let me ask you, going down to the next

3 bullet on page three, there is a list of sites in

4 which you have managed wetland jurisdictional

5 determinations and directed development and

6 evaluation of marsh and wetland restoration. And

7 I note that you have done some work in Florida.

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. On Amelia Island, St. Augustine and

10 other places.

11 A. Naples, Hollywood, New Port Richie.

12 Q. Have you done any of this sort of work

13 for any portion of the Everglades before?

14 A. Well, I guess that, you know, depends

15 upon exactly where one draws the boundaries of the

16 Glades.

17 The work in Naples was really at the

18 fringes of the Everglades, but other than that,

19 the rest of these sites were clearly not within

20 part of the Everglades.

21 Q. Had you ever done any consulting work

22 involving the Everglades in any capacity before?

23 A. No.

24 With the exceptions that I have just

25 given you.

1 Q. Okay.

2 Let's go down to the bottom of that

3 page. In the second bullet up from the bottom you

4 are listed as a member of the Wetlands Ecosystem

5 Analysis Team for the National Wetlands Technical

6 Council.

7 What did you do in that position?

8 A. This is back in the early '70s when we

9 were actually formulating what became the federal

10 definition of wetland. I mentioned this before.

11 And then coming up with a scheme for mapping

12 wetland which resulted in the National Wetland

13 Inventory System of mapping -- let's see, it's

14 coordinates and all habitat evaluation

15 classification scheme for wetlands, so there was a

16 team of people that were the precursor to that

17 habitat evaluation classification scheme and

18 actual federal definition of wetland.

19 And that included -- at that time I was

20 in academia, and so it included academicians and

21 federal regulatory people from the Corps, Fish and

22 Wildlife Service, National Marine Fishery System.

23 I don't remember who else.

24 Q. What were you doing in academia?

25 A. I worked for the University of Georgia;

1 taught a variety of courses in ecology, graduate

2 courses, and I advised graduate students. I

3 worked at the University of Georgia Marine

4 Institute and Marine Extension Service of the

5 University of Georgia dealing with ecological

6 courses related to wetland, freshwater and

7 saltwater wetland.

8 Q. Were you a professor on the faculty?

9 A. Yes, first assistant professor, then

10 associate professor at the University of Georgia,

11 with appointment in the zoology -- Department of

12 Zoology, and co-staffed at the University of

13 Georgia Marine Institute.

14 Q. When did you leave the University of

15 Georgia?

16 A. It was like late '70s, early '80s.

17 During a period of about two or three

18 years I worked for the State of George at the same

19 time I worked for the University directing a

20 coastal management program and dealing with

21 wetland protection program that Georgia had at

22 that time.

23 And then in 1982 I went to Metcalf &

24 Eddy.

25 Q. Okay.

1 A. So during the time I was at the

2 University of Georgia, I did a variety of

3 consulting work, and that's where a lot of these

4 project experience I have gained as a consultant

5 at the same time as being a faculty member, as

6 Doctor Jones and other people do.

7 Q. Let's go back to the wetland ecosystem

8 analysis team for a minute.

9 You said that you were involved in

10 mapping of wetland and --

11 A. Defining the terms for the mapping.

12 Defining.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Defining the terms for the category.

15 I assume in this case you probably

16 produced the wetland -- National Wetland Inventory

17 Maps that show pluster forest and emergent

18 macrophyte and that sort of thing.

19 The classification scheme was

20 conceived -- a variety of things were talked about

21 and the classification scheme was conceived, and

22 then Luke Core, Virginia Carter and Frank Goldat

23 and a few other people took all that, wrote it up,

24 sent it out. I think the team reviewed some

25 drafts, and then it was published as a document

1 which most people who work in wetlands have seen

2 and used.

3 Q. In the course of that work that you

4 have just described, did you receive information

5 or attend presentations concerning the Everglades?

6 A. Well, I think information was -- I

7 mean, Everglades were one of the systems

8 considered in terms of developing a definition, as

9 were lots of other major wetland ecosystems; hard

10 woods and soft woods of the Mississippi, pluster

11 and forests in New England.

12 Q. Do you recall how the Everglades were

13 classified as part of the scheme?

14 A. At that point, no, I don't. I mean,

15 that's probably 22 years ago or something like

16 that. You're getting into too much detail.

17 Q. Just got to ask.

18 A. No, I can appreciate that.

19 Q. Okay. Let's move along to the next

20 page, at the very bottom, the last bullet.

21 You are listed as serving as a member

22 of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric

23 Administration's Estuarine Eutrophication

24 Evaluation Team.

25 A. Um-hum.

1 Q. Can you tell me what you do in that

2 capacity?

3 A. A year-and-a-half ago, approximately,

4 put together a compendium of all the estuaries of

5 the country with all the information that they

6 knew to exist relative to nutrient content,

7 eutrophication, et cetera. Then they went around

8 the country and solicited persons, and I have a

9 list in my office. I don't know, I couldn't quote

10 to you right now, only two or three other people

11 to be on it, and they said: Okay, have you worked

12 in Galveston Bay? I worked there. Have you

13 worked in whatever? And they then asked if you

14 would be a reviewer of the summary of the

15 literature assembled relative to those estuaries

16 to determine whether, in your opinion, you thought

17 there were sufficient documentation to show that

18 there was eutrophication and there was not

19 eutrophication, and the purpose of that is for

20 them to just make decisions on funding future

21 study.

22 Q. So you --

23 A. Among others things.

24 That's still ongoing. I probably have

25 a stack of some of the notes on my desk now

1 because I had some of the data on Georgia, Mass.

2 Bay, and I've forgotten which ones I've had.

3 I've seen various ones over the past,

4 but it's been approximately a year in September

5 that that got underway.

6 Q. So you're primarily a reviewer of

7 documents on eutrophication in wetlands?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have you received information on

10 eutrophication in the Everglades?

11 A. Not through that.

12 Q. Not through that.

13 Let me ask you to flip two pages.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. And the second bullet from the bottom.

16 A. This statement starts out: Directed a

17 comprehensive evaluation?

18 Q. That's correct, yes, you got it.

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. You directed a comprehensive evaluation

21 of the environmental, engineering and economic

22 aspects of alternative means for disposal of

23 treated wastewater in southern New Jersey,

24 including ocean discharge, bay discharge, land

25 application and wetland application.

1 A. Um-hum.

2 Q. Let me ask you, Doctor Reimold, what

3 were the conclusions of that evaluation?

4 A. This was work done for the Cape May

5 County Municipal Authority in conformance with

6 Section 201 of the Clean Water Act.

7 It was facility planning, and it was to

8 evaluate for all of Cape May County what were the

9 options for the best, the most economical, the

10 least environmentally impacting disposal of their

11 treated effluent from the wastewater collection

12 system for that county, and so just as it says,

13 reevaluated the alternatives. And the final

14 alternative was that, based on the level of

15 treatment, which was secondary treatment, that the

16 ocean discharge offered the most -- say the least

17 environmental impacting and the most cost

18 efficient. There is Cape May and Wildwood, direct

19 ocean discharges.

20 They had also considered, in addition

21 to these things that are explicitly stated here,

22 options of level of treatment. I don't go into

23 secondary, only go to primary, and so there were

24 two scenarios of treatment.

25 Q. Do you recall what the approximate

1 population was that you were designing or

2 recommending treatment for?

3 A. Well, this was done in the period of

4 like '85 to '88, and whatever the population of

5 Cape May County was at that time. I'm sorry, I

6 don't remember. I mean, it's in there. I know

7 because we had -- in doing something like this,

8 you take the existing census, whatever this is,

9 part of Section 201, Clean Water Act and you use

10 the existing census, then use various demographic

11 projections looking ten, twenty years ahead in

12 order to determine population growth. So I don't

13 remember what the population was, but it's

14 available.

15 Q. Sure, I understand.

16 Can you tell me what level of treatment

17 would have been necessary for wetland discharge?

18 A. A minimum secondary. We didn't look at

19 any primary treatment. I mean, the engineers told

20 me that the levels of nutrient would be such that

21 wetland would not be able to accommodate the

22 load. So the option I mentioned of primary was

23 only considered in terms of ocean discharge, not

24 inland application, or bay discharge, or wetland

25 discharge.

1 Q. Do you have any recollection as to what

2 the loads were or what the concentration levels

3 were?

4 A. Not right now, but you know, at the

5 time of trial, we can develop that information and

6 provide it.

7 MR. GAINES: I think we'll develop the

8 information at the time of trial that I ask you to

9 develop.

10 THE WITNESS: I said can or could. I

11 didn't say would.

12 MR. GAINES: Mr. Macfarlane is a nice

13 guy, but let's not go too far.

14 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

15 Q. Doctor Reimold, let me ask you, would

16 it be fair to say that most of the wetlands you

17 have had direct experience with have been located

18 in the northeast or mid Atlantic regions of the

19 country?

20 A. No, I wouldn't say that.

21 I'd say most of the wetlands I have

22 been familiar with and worked in would start from

23 places where Doctor Jones used to work down in

24 Louisiana, Florida, Georgia, essentially all the

25 Atlantic Seaboard coast states.

1 The freshwater parts have been off the

2 Columbia River, and one of the largest wetlands in

3 the state of Hawaii that I mentioned earlier. I

4 mean, I would say that I have lived up in the

5 north the last twelve years, but I have been doing

6 work in the north and south and west and other

7 places in the last twelve years. And prior to

8 that I lived and worked in the southeast all that

9 time, since out of graduate school.

10 Q. Was the wetland near the mouth of the

11 Columbia River, was that Asturia?

12 A. Miller Sands. How do you know that?

13 Q. I have been to Asturia.

14 A. Did you do any wetland work there?

15 Q. No.

16 A. Litigation related to wetland?

17 Q. No. This was back in my former life.

18 A. Yeah, Miller Sands is a site with an

19 experimental wetland creation project. If you

20 know where Miller Sands is, it's a little upstream

21 from Asturia.

22 In the early days, back before I got

23 gray hair and you lost some, in those days, the

24 Corps of Engineers called it wetland restoration

25 or habitat creation or marsh creation or something

1 like that. So the Corps of Engineers funded a

2 demonstration project to see if you can build

3 wetland.

4 I was responsible for designing and

5 building one in George, and then we extrapolated

6 that information to the Miller Sands site, and

7 they actually had contracts from private

8 contractors to do the work out there for

9 construction of that. And then I'm trying to

10 think who it was, Pat Barker and some of these

11 people in Texas did one.

12 Q. Was Miller Sands built what, in the

13 early '70s?

14 A. Yeah. Like '73 to '77, something like

15 that, in that area.

16 Q. And you said it's a demonstration

17 project.

18 Beyond what you have said, you know,

19 can one build wetlands, were there any other

20 purposes behind the demonstration project?

21 A. Yeah. For those it was can you keep

22 the cost of dredging down, i.e., when you dredge

23 major waterways, can you make the sediment stay

24 somewhere, and if you put it and make it upland,

25 it's not a favored habitat, again, because we

1 talked about the way wetlands are valued. And can

2 we take a wetland, and if the roots aren't

3 established, they won't fall back in the water and

4 have less maintenance cost.

5 Q. Let me see if I understand that

6 correctly.

7 The principal purpose, or one of the

8 principal purposes of the Miller Sands

9 demonstration project was the use of wetland for

10 sediment control?

11 A. That was one of the purposes, right.

12 Q. And another was to see the feasibility?

13 A. Another was to look at the feasibility

14 in terms of habitat creation, looking at the

15 vegetation and plant and animal community, and the

16 habitat that was established for that, what kind

17 of diverse ecosystem, because wetland, you don't

18 just talk about the plant or just the microbes or

19 just the nutria or something like that. We talk

20 about them all together. So it was what kind of

21 habitat and ecosystems can we accommodate by

22 developing those kind of wetlands.

23 Q. Do you consider that to have been a

24 successful demonstration project?

25 A. It had successes and drawbacks.

1 We had a lot of problems with the

2 nutria eating out the vegetation that was

3 transplanted before it was put in, and I think we

4 learned an awful lot in terms of how important --

5 you were asking earlier the three components of

6 wetland: Soils, vegetation and hydrology.

7 We had the vegetation, we had the

8 hydrology, but we didn't have good soil. We

9 basically had river sand and it wasn't as good as

10 it could have been if the soils had been better.

11 Q. Do you know what the status of Miller

12 Sands is today?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Do you?

15 Q. No.

16 A. I was just curious. I mean, off the

17 record.

18 (Thereupon conversation was

19 held off the record.)

20 MR. MACFARLANE: Back on the record.

21 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

22 Q. Doctor Reimold, would it be fair to

23 say, again, most, and I do mean most, not all, but

24 most of the wetland project you have been involved

25 with as a consultant have concerned most coastal

1 and marine wetland or salt marshes?

2 A. No. I guess I have to say maybe 60

3 percent, but not most. I wouldn't say that.

4 Q. That's more than 50 percent?

5 A. Yeah. But most to me is like 90 to 95

6 percent, and I wouldn't call it that.

7 Q. Would you consider yourself an expert

8 on the ecosystem found in freshwater wetland in

9 the United States?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that would be based upon your

12 experience as a consultant?

13 A. And my training as well. I mean,

14 education and experience are two parts.

15 Q. Okay.

16 Let me ask you about a couple of what

17 you have listed as representative publications,

18 and these may, I think, go over some of the things

19 we have just been talking about, but I'm curious

20 anyway.

21 On the first page of your

22 representative publications, the third bullet

23 down, you wrote an article, is that correct, on

24 wetland functions?

25 A. Actually, it's a chapter in a book

1 dealing with various methodologies for appraising

2 wetland functions and values of all kinds of

3 wetlands in all parts of the world, historically

4 what's been used.

5 This says December '93. The

6 publication is delayed and it will be out in -- I

7 think it's August of '94, so it's actually not on

8 the street yet. I just reviewed the galleys of it

9 last week.

10 Q. Can you tell me, in a nutshell, what

11 your conclusions were?

12 A. Well, let's see. I reviewed a variety

13 of ecological and economic methods and tools for

14 assessing wetland functions and values and said,

15 basically, you know, you pick what you like,

16 depending upon what you're going to do with it,

17 that you really need to include both economics and

18 ecology when you are going to make any decisions

19 about using them or putting value judgments on

20 them, but it's not just bugs and bunnies, nuts and

21 berries, and it's not just dollars and cents, it's

22 all those.

23 Q. How would you describe wetlands

24 values --

25 A. Well --

1 Q. -- in 25 words or less?

2 A. Well, I guess the values of wetlands

3 relate to physical, chemical, biological -- well,

4 I guess I'll focus a little bit differently

5 because I'm thinking about some other structure to

6 my thinking.

7 I have this idea that in order to come

8 up with a value system on ecosystems, and this

9 relates to ecosystems, if we're going to put a new

10 interstate highway through or evaluate a forest or

11 Biscayne Bay that's going to become a marine

12 preserve or whatever, we have social, technical,

13 economic, environmental, legal, political and

14 institutional values. I call those STEEPLI. I

15 have written a paper about that a while back,

16 contract work for EPA. There is actually a guy in

17 EPA, and I started this like 12, 14 years ago, but

18 in assessing the value of something, from my

19 perspective, one needs to consider all these

20 different factors, so I call it STEEPLI,

21 S-T-E-E-P-L-I, social, technical, economic,

22 environmental, legal, political and institutional,

23 and in assessing the wetland, the value of a

24 wetland or value of any other ecosystem, one needs

25 to consider all of those.

1 Now, typically what I find is that

2 persons assess the value based on their own set of

3 classes. An ecologist looks at the environment.

4 An economist looks at the economics. You're a

5 lawyer, so then you lawyers look at it from a

6 legal perspective. For me the evaluation has to

7 be done from all those perspectives.

8 Q. Wetland functions, same question.

9 A. Yeah, the wetland functions. Maybe

10 there are functions that wetlands accommodate and

11 provide from the physical, chemical and biological

12 standpoint. Again, functions as a treatment

13 facility; functions as a way to mitigate from

14 floods; functions as a compensatory storage;

15 functions as a home for endangered species;

16 functions as a habitat for migratory water fowl.

17 So those functions relate to biological, chemical

18 and physical features of things that happen in

19 this system. Functions are construed by some in

20 terms only of aesthetics.

21 Twenty, fifteen years ago I read an

22 article with some people, Non-consumptive Uses of

23 Wetland. Because, you know, perhaps none of the

24 four of us or five of us are all interested in the

25 wetland from a real technical standpoint, but for

1 other persons the wetland has a very important

2 function in terms of aesthetics alone and not

3 consumptive use, so that's why people come to the

4 coast or go to the Glades to look, because to them

5 it has a functional value that's not quantifiable.

6 Q. Well, let me follow up on that.

7 Have you had occasion to form any

8 opinions about the function of wetlands in the

9 Everglades?

10 MR. GAINES: You mean in this case or

11 any?

12 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

13 Q. Generally.

14 I assume you have reviewed material --

15 A. Right.

16 Q. -- on the Everglades, and I wondered if

17 the Everglades, as a specific wetland, has entered

18 your thinking as you deal with the issue of

19 functions of wetland?

20 A. Yeah. Just as thinking about any

21 wetland, I think about the functions, the various

22 functions of it.

23 Q. What would you think the functions of

24 the Everglades wetland are?

25 A. Well, it's all the things that I just

1 listed. They're all the things I listed.

2 Any wetland that's the subject of

3 public attention in this country or

4 internationally, if it's meriting that attention

5 of the public, it has a lot of functions and

6 values, a diversity of sorts.

7 Q. Let's flip the page.

8 Let me ask you about the second article

9 from the top, Mitigation or Litigation. I like

10 that title.

11 A. Right.

12 Q. The Scientific Reasonableness of

13 Wetlands Restoration Vs. Preservation.

14 What were your conclusions in that

15 article?

16 A. Well, I mean, if we want to know the

17 exact conclusions, I'd have to get a copy of it,

18 but --

19 Q. The best of your knowledge.

20 A. But my opinion is that there are ways

21 to mitigate, for when you get involved in anything

22 related to restoring wetlands, that there are

23 usually what I will consider to be environmental

24 solutions that are cheaper and better to the

25 environment than legal solutions.

1 Q. Can you give me an example or two?

2 A. Let's see.

3 There was a case in New Jersey, the

4 Hackensack Meadowlands Development Commission. It

5 was actually New York V. The State of New Jersey,

6 and it had to do with whether or not we were going

7 to build what's now the Giants Stadium and the

8 sports complex.

9 Q. The Meadowlands?

10 A. The Meadowlands complex.

11 So it was on and off again with the

12 litigation of the whole area and who owns it and

13 what should be done there, and then finally it

14 appeared that it could be litigated for years and

15 years, so the mitigation was the clean up of some

16 contaminated wetlands around there and the

17 mitigation there was development of the various

18 creek nature center which is now the home of the

19 Hackensack Meadowlands Commission. And the

20 trade-off for that was you go ahead and consume

21 the surrounded wetland.

22 Another current -- that's 20 years I

23 guess now, but I was involved in another more

24 current one. The State of Connecticut dealt

25 with -- well, no, I'll go to something even in

1 Florida.

2 There was a case of the fellow who

3 owned the southern part of Amelia Island.

4 Actually, he owned the major part of Cumberland

5 Island, Charlie Frazier. And so there was a

6 question there about the National Parks Service

7 having interest in Cumberland Island as a national

8 seashore, but they needed to get this major

9 landowner involved. So we -- I was involved in

10 some examination of wetland functions and values

11 in Amelia Island contrasted to Cumberland, and the

12 trade-off to keep fighting over it was to get

13 Frazier to buy the land and develop Amelia Island,

14 this is the short form, and Cumberland Island was

15 acquired by the feds and turned into Cumberland

16 Island National Seashore.

17 Q. Let me ask you -- I was going to ask

18 you about the article you wrote on Non-Consumptive

19 Use of Wetlands, and let me ask you if there is

20 anything -- you got into it a moment ago.

21 A. Yeah. I talked about aesthetics, but I

22 mean just in terms of the land shape, ecology

23 approach that brings in more than just the -- what

24 I, again, call nuts and berries, bugs and bunnies,

25 part of it.

1 I have a listing of a number of famous

2 artworks. If you go to the National Gallery, for

3 example, and you look at any landscape painting,

4 you will most likely see a wetland. If you think

5 about wetlands as being open water, and a wetland

6 can be forested wetland, and a wetland can be an

7 emergent macrophyte and a lily pond with lilies on

8 it.

9 The next time you go to an art museum,

10 take a look at landscape scenes and see how many

11 of them have wetlands on them. It's amazing the

12 number of them, the real critical art pieces in

13 the history of art that have wetlands involved.

14 Beach scenes, people ice skating, they are ice

15 skating on top of wetlands.

16 Let's see. Some music, a variety of

17 classical music works have been inspired and

18 written relative to wetlands.

19 I have to go back and get the article

20 to find all these things I researched at the

21 time.

22 MR. GAINES: The water museum?

23 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

24 There are a lot of non-consumptive

25 uses. Look at what happened the last 20 years,

1 how many boardwalks have been built to wetlands.

2 They are a road to nowhere, but very popular,

3 because people want to go. Wetland ecology or the

4 flooding or something else, they're just there to

5 have a look.

6 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

7 Q. Inspirational wetland?

8 A. Yeah. So there are a lot of what I

9 call non-consumptive uses of wetlands, even for

10 educational purposes, that give wetlands another

11 factor in terms of consideration.

12 Q. Have you been to the Everglades?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. Everglades National Park?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How about the Loxahatchee National

17 Park?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right.

20 MR. GAINES: Off the record.

21 (Thereupon conversation was

22 held off the record.)

23 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

24 Q. I'd like to have this marked as an

25 exhibit, please.

1 (Thereupon the document referred to was

2 marked as Government Exhibit No. 3

3 for Identification, a copy of which is

4 attached hereto.)

5 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

6 Q. Doctor Reimold, I'm showing you what's

7 been marked as Exhibit 3. I'd like you to

8 identify that, if you can.

9 A. You want me to read the title?

10 Q. Have you seen that before?

11 A. Yes. Love this article.

12 Q. Yes.

13 And have you reviewed this article?

14 A. Yes, I have scanned it as one of the

15 things that I used in reviewing history for the

16 case. I can't say that I know it word-for-word or

17 anything like that.

18 Q. Fair enough.

19 For the record, this is an article that

20 appeared in the journal Ecology, Volume 40,

21 January, 1959, entitled A Study Of The Vegetation

22 in the Florida Everglades, by Charles M.

23 Loveless.

24 A. Just for the record, it's journal with

25 a small J. There is another thing called Journal

1 of Ecology with a capital J. It's British, and

2 I'm a member of both, and I know they don't like

3 this to be referred to as the Journal, so it's

4 journal with a small J.

5 Q. Doctor Reimold, do you intend to rely

6 on this article for any part of your testimony in

7 the final hearing?

8 A. Only to the extent that it serves as

9 background for what we know about the Everglades.

10 Q. Well, let me ask you, then, let's look

11 at the first page.

12 And let me direct your attention to the

13 second column and just at the top, the first

14 sentence there beginning, "The area's principal

15 vegetational components are the sawgrass marshes,

16 wet prairies, slough aquatic communities and tree

17 island communities."

18 Do you agree with that statement?

19 A. Well, I mean, I agree with it in

20 principle.

21 Remember, this is reporting of the

22 conditions in the system as described by Loveless

23 in the '50s, not '90s. But I mean, I think it's

24 an accurate generic description.

25 Q. Accurate at the time it was made?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let's go to page two, and there is a

3 description under the heading Descriptions of

4 Plant Communities, Sawgrass Communities.

5 Let me direct your attention, start

6 with, "Sawgrass is usually the dominant plant,

7 either occurring in almost pure stands or mixed

8 with a wide variety of other sedges, grasses,

9 herbs, and attached emergent or floating leafed

10 aquatic plants. The composition of such marshes

11 is affected by prevailing water conditions.

12 Abundance and density of plant species in the

13 community are greatly influenced by depth of

14 water, period of inundation and rate of rise and

15 fall of water levels."

16 Would you agree that that was an

17 accurate -- those were accurate statements at the

18 time they were made?

19 A. Yeah.

20 I guess just, you know, the period of

21 inundation there, the periodicity is an important

22 factor. I'm not sure if you want that to fall in

23 your reading or not.

24 Make sure when you are picking out

25 pieces of it that you think about that.

1 You said turn the page; is that right?

2 Q. Yeah. I'm looking to see if there is

3 anything else I need to ask you relative to this

4 article.

5 On page six, in the first column toward

6 the top there is --

7 A. Let me see where you are.

8 Q. Okay. Take your time.

9 A. We are talking about the section of

10 tree islands?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Page six?

13 Q. Page six.

14 And there is, I guess just below the

15 halfway point down that first paragraph, there is

16 some discussion of the pH of the tree islands.

17 And the sentence reads, "For example, Gallatin and

18 Henderson report the soil pH of the tree islands

19 they sampled in the lower Everglades to range from

20 7.5 to 8.5 and conclude that it must be assumed

21 these soil solutions are normally basic."

22 Do you have any reason to doubt the

23 accuracy of that report and data --

24 A. Well --

25 Q. -- at the time it was made?

1 A. Well, I mean, what he's doing, the

2 author here, Loveless, is quoting Gallatin and

3 Henderson (1943). I haven't read this. I see

4 what they wrote.

5 If you go on, it says Davis says that

6 they are acidic, and the author here speculates

7 there may be some reasons why there is

8 differences, but as he says very clearly, in his

9 words, there is a paucity of data supporting this.

10 Q. Let's be clear, since you have gone to

11 the next sentence.

12 I believe the sentence was a reference

13 to the northern Everglades. Let me just read in

14 that next sentence. "In contrast to this, Davis

15 (1943) states that the tree islands of the

16 northern Everglades are acid."

17 A. Well --

18 Q. Do you have any understanding of the

19 location of the northern Everglades?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What's your understanding?

22 A. South of the water conservation area

23 where the Glades begin, and the southern part

24 being down toward the south. Actually the south

25 and a little west.

1 Q. Do you think of the water conservation

2 area as being part of the Everglades?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And let me just turn to --

5 A. You're asking me about a paragraph. I

6 don't like people taking things out of context.

7 You want to read what the author said about it?

8 He said these different things which you quoted on

9 the record, then he goes on -- "there is a paucity

10 of data supporting this."

11 So at this time, 1959, he says there

12 isn't any information to support one or the

13 other.

14 Q. Fair enough.

15 A. I don't know what you're going to do

16 with that information. I just want to be sure to

17 put his last words in there.

18 Q. Page seven, there is a discussion of

19 slough communities.

20 And at the top of the second column,

21 there is a discussion of alligator holes.

22 A. Um-hum.

23 Q. And I direct your attention to the

24 statement about the vegetation of alligator holes,

25 and the sentence reads, "The vegetation of

1 alligator holes is distinct and therefore usually

2 well defined. Spatterdock is the dominant species

3 with some white water-lily and floating heart also

4 present. Species represented in the narrow

5 ecotone are willow, pickerel weed, flag, cattail

6 and occasionally leather-fern, smartweeds and

7 primrose-willow."

8 Do you have any reason to doubt that

9 those were an accurate description of the

10 vegetation of alligator holes at the time the

11 article was written?

12 A. I don't have any reason to doubt it.

13 The ecotone is then, I would assume,

14 the transition between the alligator hole and the

15 rest of the slough community.

16 Ecotone is a very thin strip of

17 substance, whether it's land or water where you

18 transition from one community to another, from one

19 ecosystem to another.

20 Q. Do you know whether the Everglades is a

21 Typha Caladium wetland?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what percentage of the native

24 vegetation in the unimpacted Everglades habitat is

25 cattail, do you know?

1 MR. GAINES: Let me object to the form

2 of the question, unimpacted.

3 I think you need to define what you're

4 talking about, and when.

5 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

6 Q. Well, let's talk about the areas of

7 Everglades National Park, for example, below

8 the -- well, in sharp river slough, and below the

9 S-12 structures.

10 Just focusing on that area, do you have

11 any idea what percentage of the native vegetation

12 in the park there is cattail?

13 A. Today?

14 Q. Today.

15 A. I don't know the exact percentage, no.

16 But I mean, that information can be

17 developed through photograph and quantification of

18 that. So, you know, someone could, if one were

19 directed, get that number for you.

20 I would presume others have already

21 developed that number for you. I don't know what

22 it is right now.

23 Q. How about in the Loxahatchee National

24 Wildlife Refuge, the interior marsh -- well, let

25 me ask you first.

1 Are you familiar with the Loxahatchee

2 National Wildlife?

3 A. No. You asked me earlier if I had been

4 there and I told you no.

5 Q. That's a different question.

6 I mean, have you read anything about

7 the Loxahatchee National Wildlife?

8 A. Yes, I believe I have.

9 The articles I reviewed in preparing

10 for this had some information about it, I believe

11 some sampling. I can't remember which one.

12 Q. Do you know where it is?

13 A. Yes. It's north of where we have just

14 been talking about and south of the EEA -- EAA.

15 Q. Do you have any understanding of

16 whether the interior marsh in Loxahatchee is a

17 Typha Caladium wetland?

18 A. Yes. I think it's the -- you probably

19 are going to bring it up, but I believe I recall

20 reviewing an article by Davis that describes a

21 sampling point in that area. So when you bring it

22 up, we can get the answer. I haven't committed

23 all that to memory.

24 I assumed this was an open book test.

25 Q. Let me mark this as an exhibit.

1 (Thereupon the document referred to was

2 marked as Government's Exhibit No. 4

3 for Identification, a copy of which is

4 attached hereto.)

5 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

6 Q. Let me show you what's been marked as

7 Government Exhibit 4, Doctor Reimold.

8 Have you reviewed this document?

9 A. Something I read in terms of preparing

10 for this.

11 Q. Would you identify it, please.

12 A. Well, it's an April '94 pub from --

13 let's see -- it's BioScience, Vol. 44 No. 4.

14 Want me to read the title?

15 Q. It reads Hurricane Andrew Impact on

16 Freshwater Resources.

17 A. Charlie Roman and others.

18 Q. And there is, on page 247, which is the

19 first page of the article, there is a description

20 of the Everglades freshwater landscape.

21 Are you familiar with that description?

22 A. I see what it says.

23 Q. Do you agree that that's an accurate

24 description of the Everglades freshwater landscape

25 prior to Hurricane Andrew?

1 A. I think it's a reasonable portrayal of

2 it.

3 Q. Let me direct your attention to page

4 248. And there is, under the heading

5 Water-quality responses to the hurricane, and the

6 sentence -- the paragraph begins, "Oligotrophic,

7 nutrient-poor waters are characteristic of the

8 interior portion of Everglades National Park."

9 Then on the next page, continues, "Soluble

10 reactive phosphorus is typically at or below four

11 ug/l in this part of the Everglades."

12 Do you have any reason to doubt that

13 statement concerning the soluble reactive

14 phosphorus levels?

15 A. I don't have any reason to doubt it.

16 I only want you to think of it in terms

17 of a flag. In looking at nutrient data of the

18 Glades in the whole case, one must remember and

19 use caution in talking about any number because

20 when you see there such wide variability, wide

21 swings in concentrations from minimums to

22 maximums, that may be an average. But just

23 typically at or below. But it doesn't say 95

24 percent of the time it's four with a standard

25 deviation of .1, and in fact, a lot of the

1 nutrient concentration and other parameter

2 concentrations have wide levels of ranges. So

3 just keep that in mind.

4 Q. We may get into that a little later.

5 Let's mark this as an exhibit.

6 (Thereupon the document referred to was

7 marked as Government's Exhibit No. 5

8 for Identification, a copy of which is

9 attached hereto.)

10 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

11 Q. All right.

12 Doctor Reimold, I'm showing you what

13 has been marked as Government Exhibit 5. This is

14 an article entitled Wetlands: Concerns and

15 Successes, or perhaps that's the journal that

16 appears -- the article title is Water Quality

17 Management for Everglades National Park.

18 A. It's not a journal. It's a special

19 publication of the American Water Resources

20 Association.

21 Q. I appreciate the correction.

22 Water Quality Management for Everglades

23 National Park by Dan Scheidt, Mark Flora and David

24 Walker.

25 Have you reviewed this article?

1 A. It's another one of the things I have

2 looked at for preparation, yes.

3 Q. Let me ask you to direct your attention

4 to page 378, and the bottom paragraph, and

5 'cause I don't want to rip things out of

6 context.

7 A. That's the second page of the article?

8 Q. Yeah.

9 The paragraph reads, "Water delivered

10 to the park may originate from or pass through

11 areas that have the potential to alter or degrade

12 water quality. Eutrophic conditions in lake

13 Okeechobee were documented as early as 1969 and

14 have since worsened with the 1988 mean total

15 phosphorus concentration of 122 ug/l the highest

16 on record."

17 Let me stop there and ask, do you agree

18 with those statements that I read out so far?

19 A. I agree with what you read. I don't

20 know of any factual reason that what they say is

21 not true.

22 Q. Okay. Let's continue.

23 "Water quality is further degraded in

24 the EAA due to fertilizer use and water management

25 practices."

1 Would you agree with that?

2 A. To the extent that that takes place. I

3 wouldn't agree that's the only source of

4 degradation.

5 Q. Let's continue.

6 "At least 300,000 acres of the

7 Everglades Water Conservation" --

8 A. 30,000.

9 Q. I apologize

10 -- "30,000 acres of the Everglades

11 Water Conservation Areas downstream of the EAA

12 have been biologically impacted by nutrient-rich

13 water."

14 Do you believe that's true?

15 MR. GAINES: Wait a minute.

16 Let me object to you asking Doctor

17 Reimold for basically an opinion on one of the

18 largest issues in this case, when that's not an

19 area he's been asked to look at. I think it's

20 outside his scope.

21 If he has an opinion, he can answer it,

22 but I object to going through and picking a

23 sentence here and there and asking, do you agree

24 with this, when it's not what he's been asked to

25 look at.

1 MR. MACFARLANE: So noted.

2 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

3 Q. Doctor Reimold, can you answer the

4 question?

5 A. Well, I would say that the answer to

6 your question is the areas are impacted both by

7 nutrient-rich water and by the periodicity of the

8 water or the absence of periodicity.

9 Q. Okay.

10 Let's flip over to page 382 and the

11 paragraph headed Present Everglades Water

12 Quality.

13 The paragraph reads, "The park's marsh

14 freshwater originates from rainfall or from canal

15 deliveries. Canal water chemistry is distinctly

16 different from marsh water chemistry in this

17 system."

18 Do you have any opinion as to whether

19 that is true?

20 A. Based upon what you read or -- I

21 believe it's true.

22 Q. Let's continue.

23 "Natural Everglades marsh water is

24 hard due mostly to calcium bicarbonate, of neutral

25 pH, and oligotrophic in regard to ambient water

1 column nutrient levels and nutrient

2 availability."

3 Do you have any reason to doubt that?

4 MR. GAINES: Let me object to the form

5 of the question because I don't think that

6 sentence makes a lot of sense grammatically. So

7 you're asking if he agrees with something, I don't

8 think it reads well. So I'll object to the form,

9 and maybe the objection is more directed to Mr.

10 Scheidt and Mr. Flora.

11 BY MR. MACFARLANE:

12 Q. Well, issues of style notwithstanding,

13 Doctor Reimold, would you have an opinion as to

14 the truth of that statement?

15 A. Well, let's dissect it.

16 It's hard due to calcium bicarbonate,

17 that's probably correct. Neutral pH, there is

18 data to suggest that water in the natural

19 Everglades is acidic. There is some that suggests

20 it's on the other side. You just read something

21 earlier that said it's acidic.

22 It's oligotrophic in regard to ambient

23 water column. I don't know if this is the water

24 of the Everglades. This is oligotrophic. I don't

25 know in regard to the ambient water column. I

1 don't know what that means, but the water in that

2 lower part of the Glades is typically

3 oligotrophic. And that's nutrient availability.

4 I mean, it's related to the concentrations in the

5 first place. So it's a mixed bag as far as a

6 sentence.

7 Q. Let's flip over to the next page.

8 Maybe this will answer the question.

9 Table three, which is a table titled

10 Average Everglades nutrient concentrations in

11 ug/l.

12 Just focus your attention on the line

13 titled marsh background. Would you think that

14 that describes an oligotrophic ecosystem or

15 oligotrophic water, the numbers reported for total

16 phosphorus, dissolved phosphate, dissolved nitrate

17 and total nitrogen?

18 A. Well, this has the number of times with

19 natural background, but I don't know what the

20 citation here is.

21 The data source or natural background

22 is footnote one. Let's see what that is.

23 1985 to '88 mean. Do we know?

24 Q. I think it may be given at the top of

25 the page.

1 A. Of which page?

2 Q. Page 383. I was going to ask you about

3 that anyway.

4 Where it says, Interior marsh sites

5 within the park, nutrient concentrations are

6 usually less than the South Florida Water

7 Management District detection limits (dissolved

8 orthophosphate four ug/l; total phosphate 10

9 ug/l.

10 A. I'd have to know the detection limits.

11 Just flag that as an example in one of the

12 problems I have seen, in one of the literature in

13 reviewing here.

14 Maybe in the original document it does

15 tell us the detection limits, but if you can't

16 find the detection limits, and the number is four,

17 then it means the answer is already in here. If

18 it's here, we'll find it. Somebody point it out

19 to me. But let me just make a point first.

20 If the detection limit, if it's --

21 Q. Continue, I'm listening.

22 A. That's all right. I'll wait till

23 you've finished.

24 Q. Would you understand that the detection

25 limits are those limits listed in the parenthesis?

1 A. Not necessarily.

2 Q. I see.

3 A. I'd have to go to the document.

4 I want to tell you what I was going to

5 say. When you can't document what the detection

6 limit is, one side of the case would like to argue

7 that the number is zero; the other would like to

8 argue, let's say the number is four, the others

9 say the number is 3.9, and you and I don't know

10 what the answer is. So I don't know.

11 In this case, the way it's written, it

12 may or may not be.

13 Q. Let me ask you to turn your attention

14 to pages 386 to 389. This portion of the article

15 describes the nutrient dosing research, and there

16 is some underlining and marginal comments with

17 certain words circled, and let me ask you, is that

18 your underlining, do you recall?

19 A. It probably is. I couldn't verify it

20 for sure unless I saw the original, but it might

21 be.

22 I sometimes pull out a red pen when I'm

23 reading something, but I couldn't guarantee it.

24 Q. Sure.

25 A. Somebody else marked on it.

1 Q. Let me ask you, did you have occasion

2 to review this portion of the article on the

3 nutrient dosing research?

4 A. Not in the detail you're asking me

5 about. It's something I speed read and put

6 aside.

7 Q. Let me ask you, generally, what your

8 understanding of that research project was as