STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF ) FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural ) Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038 ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040 ) and ) ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) ) ______________________ and ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and ) OF HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) ) DR. KENNETH H. RECKHOW Petitioners, ) ______________________ ) vs. ) ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an Agency of the State ) of Florida, ) ) Respondent, ) ) and ) ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF ) AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and the ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) ) Intervenors. ) ___________________________________) AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA APRIL 8-9, 1993 REPORTED BY: PAMELA S. LILES CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 2 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PETITIONERS: SUGARCANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE MR. RICHARD A. RUSSELL OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC. PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK AND WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC. ONE BISCAYNE TOWER MS. DONNA H. STINSON SUITE 3636 HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314 TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000 TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500 FOR RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: FOR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MR. THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD MANAGEMENT DISTRICT: ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY MR. R. BENJAMINE REID SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH 155 SOUTH MIAMI AVENUE & KAUFMAN, LTD. SUITE 627 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL MIAMI, FLORIDA 33130 CENTER 100 S.E. SECOND STREET MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TELEPHONE: (305) 536-4425 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050 FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY: MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN KING, WALKER, LAMBE & CRABTREE 3708 MAYFAIR STREET POST OFFICE BOX 51549 DURHAM, N.C. 27717 TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411 DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 3 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X DEPONENT - DR. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW - 4/8-9/93 EXAMINATION: PAGES BY MR. REID 4-245 BY MR. FITZGERALD 245-308 ------------------------------------------------------- E X H I B I T S I N D E X NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED (EXHIBITS NUMBER #1 - #25 WERE MARKED DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. KENNETH H. RECKHOW, APRIL 8-9, 1993.) ------------------------------------------------------- SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT 309 CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER 310 DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 4 STIPULATIONS ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, THE DEPOSITION OF DR. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 12:28 P.M. ON APRIL 8, 1993, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE EXECUTIVE BOARDROOM, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY PUBLIC. THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED. - - - - - - - - - - - WHEREUPON, KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW, Ph.D., HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: EXAMINATION BY MR. REID: Q. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME? A. FULL NAME? Q. YES, SIR. A. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW. Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS? A. IT'S 2917 WADE ROAD, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA. Q. WHAT DID YOU SAY YOUR MIDDLE NAME WAS? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 5 A. HOWLAND. Q. OH, HOWLAND. I THOUGHT YOU SAID ALLEN. A. YEAH. Q. AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE "H" WAS FOR. OKAY, BY WHOM ARE YOU EMPLOYED? A. DUKE UNIVERSITY. Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR TITLE? A. I'M AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND ALSO IN CIVIL AND ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEERING AND ALSO IN THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES. Q. OKAY. SO, I CAN UNDERSTAND BETTER HOW YOU FIT IN, CAN YOU -- I WANT YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW DUKE IS ORGANIZED. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT A SCHOOL, A DEPARTMENT, AND AN INSTITUTE. SO, CAN YOU START AT THE TOP AND WORK DOWN? A. SURE, AS BEST I KNOW. AND YOU MIGHT CORRECT ME OR ADD, RALPH. DUKE IS ORGANIZED ON THE BASIS OF SCHOOLS, WHICH MIGHT BE THOUGHT OF AS COLLEGES, AND COLLEGE -- OR SCHOOL OF ARTS AND SCIENCES, ENGINEERING, ENVIRONMENT, LAW, BUSINESS, ARE AMONG THOSE, DIVINITY. SO, SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT IS WHERE MY PRIMARY APPOINTMENT IS. AND ALL OF MY SALARY COMES THROUGH THE SCHOOL OF THE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 6 ENVIRONMENT. THE DEPARTMENT OF CIVIL ENGINEERING IS IN THE SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING, AND I HAVE A JOINT APPOINTMENT WITH THAT DEPARTMENT. WE HAVE NO DEPARTMENTS IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT. THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES IS YET ANOTHER STRUCTURE, SAY, LIKE THE WETLAND CENTER IS A -- CENTERS ARE STRUCTURES. EXACTLY HOW THAT FITS IN, I HAVE TO SAY, I DON'T KNOW. IT'S THROUGH THE PROVOST'S OFFICE, AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND. Q. OKAY. WELL, IF YOU'RE TAKING UNDERGRADUATE COURSES IN STATISTICS, WHICH SCHOOL WOULD YOU BE IN? A. YOU WOULD -- AS AN UNDERGRADUATE, YOU WOULD EITHER BE IN TRINITY COLLEGE, ARTS AND SCIENCES, OR IN ENGINEERING. Q. OKAY. AND ASSUMING YOU GET TO THE GRADUATE LEVEL IN STATISTICS, WHERE WOULD YOU FALL? A. YOU WOULD BE IN THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES IN--- Q. OKAY. SO IT--- A. ---PROBABLY THROUGH THE GRADUATE SCHOOL OF ARTS AND SCIENCES. Q. AND IT'S, IN EFFECT, A STAND-ALONE ENTITY? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 7 A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. OKAY. AND WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS? WHAT IS THAT PERSON CALLED? A. MIKE WEST IS CALLED A "HEAD," NOT A "CHAIR." Q. OKAY. THE HEAD OF THE INSTITUTE. A. YEAH. Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU MENTIONED A CENTER A MOMENT AGO--- A. UH-HUH. Q. ---WHERE DOES A CENTER FIT INTO ALL OF THIS? A. WELL, CENTERS ARE FORMALLY -- CENTERS THAT HAVE BEEN FORMALLY IDENTIFIED AS CENTERS BY DUKE UNIVERSITY, AS FAR AS I KNOW, CAN EXIST IN ANY OF THESE ENTITIES -- SCHOOLS, DEPARTMENTS, INSTITUTES -- AND OFTEN ARE SET UP TO BRING IN FACULTY ACROSS, OR FROM OTHER DEPARTMENTS THAN THE HOST DEPARTMENT. Q. NOW, YOU MENTIONED THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. WHEN WAS THAT CREATED? A. OH, GEE, THREE YEARS AGO. Q. OKAY. AND, IF I WERE DRAWING A LITTLE DOTTED LINE, HOW WOULD THAT RELATE TO THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 8 A. THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT HAS SEVERAL CENTERS, AND THE WETLAND CENTER IS ONE CENTER WITHIN THE SCHOOL. Q. NOW, ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY DO? A. ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR, I'M INVOLVED IN TEACHING; ADVISING STUDENTS; ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIVITIES SUCH AS SERVING ON COMMITTEES; ADMISSIONS AND AWARDS COMMITTEE; MEETING WITH STUDENTS. Q. OKAY. IN A TYPICAL ACADEMIC YEAR, WHAT WOULD YOUR TEACHING LOAD BE? A. A COURSE A SEMESTER, PLUS A SEMINAR. Q. IS THAT WHAT YOU'D CALL A NORMAL TEACHING LOAD AT DUKE? A. THAT'S A NORMAL TEACHING LOAD IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT. I BELIEVE IT'S NORMAL AND TYPICAL OF MOST DEPARTMENTS. Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT ARE YOU TEACHING THIS SEMESTER? A. DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS. Q. TELL ME WHAT THAT IS. A. THAT INVOLVES STATISTICAL METHODS, TO SOME DEGREE, AND THE SCIENCE OF DECISION THEORY, HOW WE MAKE DECISIONS UNDER UNCERTAINTY. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 9 Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE RELATED TO THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS? A. IT COULD BE, BUT IT IS NOT. Q. OKAY. IT'S JUST A -- IS IT AN UNDERGRADUATE COURSE? A. NO, IT'S A GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL COURSE WITHIN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT SEMINAR ARE YOU TEACHING THIS SEMESTER? A. I'M NOT. MY SEMINAR WAS GIVEN IN THE FALL. Q. OKAY. GIVE ME AN IDEA, GOING BACK OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, OF SOME OF THE COURSES THAT YOU'VE TAUGHT. A. THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, I'VE TAUGHT DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS IN THE SPRING, WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT AS A COURSE IN THE FALL, AND WATER QUALITY MODELING AS A SEMINAR IN THE FALL. Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S BEEN FOR HOW MANY YEARS, WOULD YOU SAY? A. OH, FIVE, SIX YEARS. Q. THE WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, WOULD THAT BE A GRADUATE-LEVEL COURSE? A. YEAH. THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT, UP UNTIL THIS FALL, HAS ONLY BEEN FOR GRADUATE AND DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 10 PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS. NOW, PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS ARE NOT UNLIKE MBA STUDENTS IN THAT THEY ARE POST-UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE PURSUING A PROFESSIONAL DEGREE THAT TRAINS THEM TO PRACTICE THE PROFESSION OF ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES. Q. AND I ASSUME THE MODELING COURSE WOULD ALSO BE FOR GRADUATE OR PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS? A. YES. Q. DO YOU -- IN YOUR DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS COURSE, DO YOU HAVE A STANDARD TEXTBOOK THAT YOU USE? A. YES. THE LAST TWO YEARS, I HAVE USED A COURSE -- A TEXT BY VON WINTERFELDT AND EDWARDS ENTITLED DECISION ANALYSIS AND BEHAVIORAL RESEARCH. Q. VON WINTERFELDT? A. VON WINTERFELDT, YES. Q. AND ELLIS? A. NO. VON WINTERFELDT AND EDWARDS. Q. EDWARDS, I'M SORRY. OKAY. AND WHAT TEXT DO YOU USE IN THE WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT COURSE? A. THE LAST TWO YEARS, I HAVE NOT USED A TEXT. Q. OKAY. WHAT HAVE YOU USED FOR COURSE MATERIALS? A. IN ALL MY COURSES, I HAVE ALL MY LECTURE NOTES PHOTOCOPIED AND HAND THOSE -- OR ACTUALLY HAVE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 11 THOSE SOLD BY AN ORGANIZATION THAT PROVIDES COURSE PACKS FOR UNIVERSITIES. Q. WHAT'S THE NAME OF THAT COURSE -- OF THAT ORGANIZATION? A. I MAY -- I HAVE TO SAY I CAN'T RECALL. THEY'RE LOCATED IN RALEIGH. THEY USED TO GO UNDER THE NAME "UNLIMITED POTENTIAL." NOW, THEY MAY STILL USE THAT NAME. NAME COULD BE OBTAINED THROUGH THE BOOKSTORE. Q. CAN STUDENTS BUY THIS COURSE MATERIAL THROUGH THE BOOKSTORE AT DUKE? A. YES, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. I HAVE THE COPIER COPY AND BIND THE NOTES, AND THEN THEY ARE SOLD TO THE BOOKSTORE. Q. AND YOU'VE BEEN USING THESE FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, YOU SAY? A. WELL, IN WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, I HAVE NOT USED A TEXT FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS. IN ALL OF MY COURSES, I'VE USED THE COURSE PACKS FOR, OH, THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE, SIX YEARS. Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE -- MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO WHAT TEXT DID YOU USE IN WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT? A. A TEXT BY TCHOBANOGLOUS AND SCHROEDER ENTITLED, WATER QUALITY. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 12 Q. CAN YOU SPELL THE FIRST ONE FOR THE--- A. YEAH. T-C-H-O-B-A-N-O-G-L-O-U-S. Q. SAY THAT AGAIN, T-C -- I RAN--- A. T-C-H-O-B-A-N-O-G-L-O-U-S, I THINK. Q. AND SCHROEDER? A. SCHROEDER, S-C-H-R-O-E-D-E-R. Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR MODELING SEMINAR, DO YOU -- YOU USE YOUR COURSE MATERIALS, I ASSUME. A. I HAVE A TEXT AND I'VE USED THE COURSE LECTURE--- Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE TEXT? A. THE TEXT IS ENGINEERING APPROACHES FOR LAKE MANAGEMENT, VOLUME 2. Q. BY WHOM? A. RECKHOW -- OR CHAPRA AND RECKHOW. Q. OKAY. I ASSUME THAT'S YOU. A. YES. Q. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE DECISION THEORY COURSE FOR A LITTLE BIT. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. IF YOU WERE GOING TO DESCRIBE THIS COURSE TO SOMEBODY WHO WAS INTERESTED IN TAKING IT, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT? A. A PROSPECTIVE STUDENT -- SOMEONE WHO HAS SOME ACADEMIC TRAINING--- DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 13 Q. RIGHT. WHO--- A. ---I WOULD DESCRIBE IT AS A COURSE THAT MAKES USE OF BASIC PROBABILITY AND STATISTICS AND PROVIDES A FOUNDATION IN DECISION THEORY, THE THEORY OF DECISION MAKING UNDER UNCERTAINTY, BUT, IN ADDITION, PROVIDES A NUMBER OF APPLICATIONS OF DECISION THEORY, CALLED DECISION ANALYSIS, AS TO HOW WE TAKE UNCERTAIN SCIENCE AND VALUE JUDGMENTS TO HELP GUIDE DECISION MAKING UNDER UNCERTAINTY. Q. NOW, ARE YOU TAKING ACTUAL DATA AND LOOKING AT IT FOR ITS CREDIBILITY? A. IN THE COURSE? Q. YEAH. A. NO. Q. OKAY. I THINK OF -- IN MY MIND, I THINK OF TWO -- YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT DECISION MAKING, THERE'S THIS BODY OF WORK WHERE YOU -- SOMETHING CALLED DECISION TREES AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. A. YES, THAT'S PART OF IT. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. DO YOU -- IS THAT PART OF YOURS, AS WELL? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. NOW, I DON'T THINK OF THAT AS BEING PARTICULARLY MATHEMATICAL. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 14 A. NO, NO. Q. SO, PART OF YOUR COURSE WORK IS -- PART OF YOUR WORK IS -- WOULD BE IN DEALING WITH SUBJECTIVE EVALUATION. A. JUDGMENTAL PROBABILITIES AND PREFERENCES, WHICH ARE VERY LIKELY TO REFLECT JUDGMENTS. Q. OKAY. DOES PART OF IT ALSO DEAL WITH MATHEMATICAL APPROACHES TO THIS SAME SUBJECT MATTER? A. PART OF THE CLASSES I TEACH? Q. YES. RIGHT. A. TO A LIMITED DEGREE, YES. Q. IN TERMS OF FIVE PERCENT SIGNIFICANT PROBABILITY AND THINGS LIKE THAT? DOES THAT -- YOU GET INTO THAT AREA IN THIS COURSE? A. NO. THAT WOULD -- THAT'S -- ALTHOUGH, WE HAVE IN THE PAST -- HYPOTHESIS TESTING, YOU'RE REFERRING TO? Q. RIGHT. A. AND I HAVEN'T IN THE LAST TWO YEARS. IT IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE QUANTITATIVE COURSES IN THE SCHOOL THAT PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS CHOOSE FROM. Q. NOW, WHAT IS CONSIDERED A QUANTITATIVE, YOUR COURSE? A. THE DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS COURSE. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 15 Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN, IT'S CONSIDERED A QUANTITATIVE COURSE? A. WELL, THERE ARE CERTAIN COURSES THAT ARE IDENTIFIED IN A SET OF COURSE OPTIONS THAT ARE MORE QUANTITATIVE IN NATURE, AND IT IS ONE OF THOSE. IT IS NOT HEAVILY MATHEMATICAL, THOUGH I DO ASSIGN PROBLEM SETS. SO, THERE ARE CALCULATIONS MADE IN THE COURSE OF THE COURSE. Q. OKAY. HAS ANY OF THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE IN THIS CASE BEEN A TYPE MATERIAL THAT YOU WOULD HAVE COVERED IN THIS CLASS? A. BY "IN THIS CASE," YOU MEAN? Q. THE EVERGLADES LITIGATION. A. I'M TRYING TO THINK. NOT THIS YEAR. LAST YEAR, I TALKED ABOUT DECISION MAKING IN THE EVERGLADES JUST IN A VERY GENERAL SENSE. JUST--- Q. OKAY. MAYBE MY QUESTION WASN'T CLEAR. WE'LL GET INTO THIS LATER IN TERMS OF WHAT YOUR ASSIGNMENT HAS BEEN IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. WHEN I SAY "THIS CASE," DO YOU UNDERSTAND I MEAN THE SWIM CHALLENGE AND THE ENTIRE RESTORATION ISSUES RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING IN TERMS OF, YES. UH-HUH (YES). DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 16 Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT I'M INTERESTED TO KNOW IS, HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK IN THIS CASE THAT YOU COULD POINT TO SOMETHING IN YOUR COURSE THAT--- A. OH, I SEE. I LOOKED THE OTHER WAY, YEAH. Q. ---YOU DRAW UPON -- THE PRINCIPLES. YOU LOOKED THE OTHER WAY, EXACTLY. A. YEAH. CERTAIN -- NOT FOR THE PROJECT THAT INVOLVES THIS GROUP. NOW, YOU -- SO, NO, NOT FOR THAT -- THIS PROJECT THAT SONG AND I ARE WORKING ON. Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAVEN'T USED A DECISION TREE ANALYSIS, FOR INSTANCE, ON ANY EVERGLADES RELATED SUBJECT? A. WELL, YOU'RE BROADENING IT BECAUSE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---WITH REGARDS TO THE WORK THAT I'M DOING FOR THE SUGAR CANE COOPERATIVE, THE ANSWER IS NO. Q. WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE THE ANSWER YES? YOU'RE ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT SOMETHING. A. WELL, YOU ARE PROBABLY AWARE THAT I AM ALSO WORKING FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. Q. RIGHT. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 17 A. OKAY. AND IN THE CONTEXT OF EXPERIENCES WITH THE DISTRICT, PRIOR TO BEING INVOLVED IN THIS PARTICULAR WORK, TO ANY DEGREE, I'VE THOUGHT OF THE EVERGLADES ISSUE IN A DECISION ANALYTIC CONTEXT AND DID LAY OUT A FRAMEWORK FOR THINKING ABOUT THE EVERGLADES PROBLEM IN THE DECISION ANALYSIS CLASS. Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE REFLECTED IN YOUR NOTES THAT THE STUDENTS CAN BUY? A. NO, IT WASN'T. I GAVE A HANDOUT. IT WASN'T THIS YEAR, BECAUSE I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT IT THIS YEAR AT ALL. IT WAS LAST YEAR ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH THE SEMESTER. WHAT I OFTEN DO IS REALIZE THAT THE STUDENTS ARE IN NEED OF REINFORCEMENT IN A PARTICULAR AREA, AND I'LL CHANGE THE LECTURE, AND I DID THAT LAST YEAR. AND, SO, I ADDED A HANDOUT AND USED THAT EXAMPLE OF DECISION MAKING IN THE EVERGLADES AS A CASE STUDY. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A PARAGRAPH ABOUT WHAT THE HANDOUT REFLECTED? A. YEAH. IT WAS VERY GENERAL. IT SIMPLY IDENTIFIED THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM, THAT THERE WAS WATER AND NUTRIENT COMING FROM THE NORTH AND FLOWING INTO THE EVERGLADES. AND THERE WAS CONCERN WITH DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 18 REGARDS TO WHAT THE PHOSPHORUS LEVEL SHOULD BE IN THE WATER FLOWING INTO THE EVERGLADES. AND I DEVELOPED WHAT'S CALLED AN OBJECTIVES HIERARCHY FOR THAT ANALYSIS, WHICH IDENTIFIES -- IT'S A GRAPHICAL DEVICE THAT LOOKS LIKE A FLOWCHART, IN A SENSE, TOP TO BOTTOM, AND HELPS A DECISION ANALYST IDENTIFY SPECIFIC OBJECTIVES IN A PROBLEM. BEYOND THAT, I CAN'T TELL YOU, BECAUSE I JUST DON'T REMEMBER THE DETAILS. THE PURPOSE OF THE EXERCISE, THOUGH, WAS TO CONVINCE STUDENTS THAT THE MATERIAL THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE CLASS, WHICH APPEARED TO BE SOMEWHAT ABSTRACT FROM REAL WORLD PROBLEMS, MIGHT HELP US THINK ABOUT REAL WORLD PROBLEMS; SO, I JUST BEGAN THE THINKING ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR PROBLEM. THE SPECIFICS THAT WE DISCUSSED, I DON'T REMEMBER. Q. WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT YOUR DECISION THEORY, OF COURSE. A. YEAH, YEAH. Q. OKAY. IS THAT HANDOUT STILL AVAILABLE? A. I WOULD THINK -- PROBABLY SOMEWHERE IN MY NOTES, YEAH. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT COURSE, WHAT DO YOU COVER, DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 19 GENERALLY, IN THAT COURSE? A. THAT'S A BROAD COURSE INTENDED FOR BEGINNING STUDENTS IN THE PROGRAM. AND IT COVERS AN INTRODUCTION TO SCIENCE OF CONCERN TO SURFACE WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, SOME BASIC BIOLOGY AND CHEMISTRY CONCEPTS. IT MOVES TO A DISCUSSION AS TO HOW LAND USE AFFECTS WATER QUALITY, POLLUTANTS THAT MIGHT BE THOUGHT TO RUN OFF VARIOUS LAND USE TYPES AND CATEGORIES. IT THEN MOVES TO AN OVERVIEW OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS RELEVANT TO SURFACE WATER QUALITY, AND THEN GOES INTO A FINAL, FAIRLY LENGTHY SET OF TOPICS DEALING WITH WATER QUALITY SIMULATION MODELING. THIS IS ALL AT A VERY BASIC LEVEL. Q. OKAY. IS THERE ANYTHING, SPECIFICALLY, IN YOUR COURSE THAT YOU'VE DRAWN ON IN YOUR WORK IN THIS CASE -- IN THAT PARTICULAR COURSE? A. OH, IN THIS? WITH REGARDS AGAIN TO THE SUGAR CANE COOPERATIVE AND THIS EXERCISE WITH SONG, NO; AND WITH REGARDS TO THE EVERGLADES, NO. Q. OKAY. NOW, YOUR LAST COURSE WAS ACTUALLY A SEMINAR, MODELING. TELL ME WHAT YOU COVER IN THAT COURSE OR THAT SEMINAR. A. IN THAT COURSE, WE -- I START OUT BY GIVING A DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 20 SERIES OF LECTURES DEALING WITH WHAT'S CALLED MECHANISTIC MODELING; MODELS THAT ARE BASED ON SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING RELATING POLLUTANT INPUT TO WATER QUALITY, PARTICULARLY, IN LAKES, BUT ALSO IN RIVERS. AND, IN ADDITION, I TALK ABOUT STATISTICAL ISSUES, NOTABLY, TREND ANALYSIS. AND THEN, THAT FOLLOWS -- THAT'S FOLLOWED BY STUDENT PRESENTATION -- STUDENT SEMINARS ON TOPICS THAT THEY CHOOSE TO WORK ON. Q. IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE YEARS, HAVE ANY STUDENTS WORKED SPECIFICALLY ON TOPICS RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES SITUATION? A. YES. CONRAD LAMON, A Ph.D. STUDENT OF MINE, WHO WORKED DURING THE SUMMER FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, USED A MODELING TOOL CALLED "STELLA" TO LOOK AT -- I BELIEVE LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS AND WATER MOVEMENT IN WCA-2A. Q. "STELLA" -- IS THAT AN ACRONYM? A. I CAN'T RECALL. Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THIS PARTICULAR EXERCISE? A. IT WAS MAINLY TO GAIN EXPERIENCE IN A MODELING APPROACH THAT GAVE HIM FAMILIARITY WITH THE TECHNIQUE ON THE MACINTOSH, STELLA, AND EXPERIENCE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 21 IN WRITTEN AND ORAL PRESENTATION. Q. OKAY. DID THAT ULTIMATELY COME TO ANY FORMAL PRESENTATION IN WRITING OR--- A. HE WROTE A FINAL REPORT FOR THE CLASS, YEAH. Q. OKAY. AND, SO, YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT, FOR INSTANCE? A. NO. NO. Q. OKAY. WAS THERE ANYTHING IN HIS WORK THAT YOU HAVE USED OR RELIED ON OR IN ANY WAY CONSIDERED? A. NO. NO. Q. WHY IS THAT? A. IT'S JUST, I GUESS, A COUPLE OF REASONS. I WASN'T THINKING, AT THE TIME, OF GOING THROUGH IT FOR THE PURPOSE OF GLEANING THINGS OUT FOR THIS WORK. AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT DIDN'T LEAD TO ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE OF VALUE IN THOSE TERMS. IT WAS A GOOD EDUCATIONAL EXERCISE FOR HIM. Q. UH-HUH (YES). WHAT WAS HIS HYPOTHESIS OR WHAT WAS HE TRYING TO FIND OUT? A. I CAN'T RECALL, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE WE SET IT UP IN TERMS OF AN HYPOTHESIS. I LOOKED AT IT FOR HIM AS AN EXPERIENCE IN WORKING WITH A MODELING TOOL. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 22 Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU USE THE TERM "MODEL"? A. I TEND TO USE IT AS HAVING AN IMPLIED MATHEMATICAL IN FRONT OF IT. AND I TEND TO REFER TO A MODEL THAT SIMULATES OR DESCRIBES, AS OPPOSED TO ONE THAT OPTIMIZES. AND, THEREFORE, AS A RULE, WHEN I USE THE WORD "MODEL," I'M REFERRING TO AN EQUATION OR SET OF EQUATIONS THAT ARE USED TO DESCRIBE SOMETHING, SUCH AS THE -- THE POLLUTANT TRANSPORTING FEE. Q. NOW, YOU SAID THAT THE -- YOU LOOKED AT MODELS THAT SIMULATE RATHER THAN OPTIMIZE. A. YES. Q. WHAT -- DESCRIBE FOR ME A MODEL THAT WOULD OPTIMIZE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. BY THAT, I MEAN A MODEL THAT MIGHT BE USED TO MINIMIZE THE COST OF WASTEWATER TREATMENT SUBJECT TO A CONSTRAINT, SUCH AS ALLOWABLE DISCHARGE. Q. OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF EACH THAT WOULD DEMONSTRATE THE DIFFERENCE? A. YES. A SIMULATION MODEL IS ONE THAT MIGHT HAVE AS INPUT TO THE MODEL POLLUTANT LOADING AND MIGHT PREDICT POLLUTANT CONCENTRATION IN A WATER BODY OF INTEREST. AND, THEREFORE, IT MIGHT BE USED TO DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 23 EVALUATE SCENARIOS LEADING TO VARIOUS POLLUTANT LOADS. Q. SO, THAT YOU WOULD ASSUME A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WHATEVER POLLUTANT YOU'RE DEALING WITH WAS INTRODUCED INTO A BODY OF WATER? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. WOULD THAT BE IN TERMS OF A LOAD OR IN TERMS OF CONCENTRATION? A. IT COULD BE EITHER. Q. OKAY. AND THEN, YOUR MODEL WOULD BE A SERIES OF EQUATIONS THAT WOULD--- A. OR A SINGLE EQUATION. Q. ---OR A SINGLE EQUATION, THAT WOULD TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT, WHERE, AT THE END -- AT THE OTHER END OF THE BODY OF WATER GOING OUT OR--- A. IT DEPENDS ON THE MODEL. IT COULD BE WITHIN THE WATER BODY AT THE OUTLET. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE MODEL. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT -- HOW, THEN, WOULD YOU USE THIS MODEL? OR, AT THIS POINT, YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED IN USING IT; YOU'RE JUST INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT WHAT HAPPENS. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY? A. WELL, IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE SITUATION. IF I WAS TO USE THE MODEL, I MIGHT USE IT TO EVALUATE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 24 VARIOUS SCENARIOS OF POLLUTANT INPUT THAT MIGHT BE ASSOCIATED WITH VARIOUS MANAGEMENT PLANS. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU'D PLAY AROUND WITH THE LOAD GOING IN PERHAPS OR--- A. YES. Q. ---SOME OF THE CONDITIONS THAT EXIST IN THE BODY OF WATER--- A. YES. Q. ---TO FIND OUT HOW THOSE THINGS MIGHT AFFECT THE RESULT? A. YES. Q. OKAY. NOW, GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A MODEL THAT WOULD OPTIMIZE. A. A MODEL THAT WOULD OPTIMIZE OFTEN INVOLVES, AS I MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO, MAXIMIZING OR MINIMIZING THIS -- THE EXAMPLE I GAVE A MOMENT AGO CONCERNED USING IT TO MINIMIZE COSTS; IDENTIFY, PERHAPS -- IF WE WERE USING IT FOR, LET'S SAY, DESIGN OF A WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT, DETERMINING WHAT DESIGN FACTORS -- WATER LOAD, POLLUTANT LOAD; OTHER DESIGN FACTORS THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE -- TO IDENTIFY THE DESIGN FACTORS THAT WOULD LEAD TO A MINIMUM COST MANAGEMENT SOLUTION, OFTEN SUBJECT TO CONSTRAINTS; AND CONSTRAINTS COULD BE ALLOWABLE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 25 DISCHARGE CONCENTRATIONS OF CONTAMINANTS OF CONCERN. Q. SO, YOU'D PLUG THAT IN, IN EFFECT, AS A GIVEN OR AS A REQUIREMENT--- A. YES. Q. ---FOR THE END? A. YOU HAVE TO MEET THESE CONCENTRATIONS OF BIOCHEMICAL OXYGEN DEMAND, FOR EXAMPLE. Q. AND THEN -- SO, THEN, YOU WOULD -- YOU WOULD PUT IN WHAT'S COMING IN AT THE OTHER -- AT THE BEGINNING AND DEAL WITH WAYS TO MEET THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU WANT TO REACH? A. WITH THE OBJECTIVE OF -- IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE THAT I SET OUT -- MINIMIZE -- IDENTIFYING A DESIGN THAT MINIMIZES COST. Q. HOW LONG HAVE PEOPLE BEEN USING THIS MODELING APPROACH IN THE WATER QUALITY AREA? A. I CAN ONLY GUESS ON THAT. SIMULATION MODELING FOR SURFACE WATER QUALITY GOES BACK TO THE MID-20'S, LOOKING AT DISSOLVED OXYGEN IN STREAMS. OPTIMIZATION MODELS MAY GO BACK JUST TO THE EARLY '60'S, BUT I'M NOT SURE. Q. PROBABLY BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE GOT INTERESTED IN DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, I GUESS. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 26 A. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. Q. OKAY. THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE. IS THIS APPROACH TO MODELING USED IN OTHER AREAS, AS WELL? A. THE SIMULATION MODELING, YES. Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES? A. I'M MUCH LESS FAMILIAR--- Q. SURE. A. ---WITH OTHER AREAS, AND I'M MORE FAMILIAR WITH SIMULATION THAN WITH OPTIMIZATION. SIMULATION MODELING IS USED, FOR EXAMPLE, TO DESCRIBE THE EFFECTIVE AIR QUALITY POLLUTANT CONTROLS ON STACKS -- ON EMITTERS, ON AMBIENT AIR CONCENTRATIONS AT SOME POINT OF INTEREST. Q. CAN YOU THINK OF ONE TOTALLY OUTSIDE THE POLLUTION AREA? MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO THE QUESTION ON THE GROUNDS OF RELEVANCE. YOU CAN ANSWER. MR. REID: THOSE OBJECTIONS ARE PRESERVED. GO AHEAD. A. WHAT--- MS. STINSON: YOU MAY ANSWER. WITNESS: I MAY ANSWER? OKAY. MS. STINSON: IF YOU CAN. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 27 MR. REID: OBVIOUSLY, I DON'T WANT HIM TO ANSWER IF -- I'LL JUST SAY THIS FOR THE REST OF THE DEPOSITION -- IF YOU DON'T KNOW, DON'T ANSWER. WITNESS: I--- MS. STINSON: YOU'RE NOT REQUIRED TO SPECULATE--- A. OKAY. WELL, I GUESS I--- MS. STINSON: ---IF YOU DON'T KNOW. WITNESS: OKAY. A. ---I'M SURE THEY ARE USED. I JUST -- I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE. Q. YOU CAN'T NAME--- A. NO, I CAN'T IDENTIFY SPECIFICALLY. Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE ALTERNATIVE TO SOMEONE IN YOUR POSITION TO USING THE MODELING TECHNIQUES? A. FOR WHAT PURPOSE? Q. FOR -- ASSUMING YOU WANT TO REACH THE SAME CONCLUSION; FOR THE SAME REASON YOU'RE DOING MODELING. ARE THERE OTHER ALTERNATIVE MEANS OF REACHING THE SAME RESULT? A. CERTAINLY. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE? A. EXPERT JUDGMENT. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 28 Q. OKAY. YOU COULD ALSO GO OUT AND JUST TAKE SAMPLES, COULDN'T YOU? A. WELL, THE SCENARIO THAT IT STRIKES ME A SIMULATION MODEL IS USEFUL FOR IS PREDICTIVE AND SAMPLES REFLECT CURRENT SITUATION OF THE PAST. Q. ARE THERE OTHER TECHNIQUES FOR PREDICTING THE FUTURE BESIDES MODELING? A. EXPERT JUDGMENT, AGAIN. Q. ASIDE FROM THAT? A. I THINK, GIVEN THE WAY WE HAVE DEFINED MODELING AS SIMULATION MODELING AND GIVEN THE BREADTH OF COVERAGE OF EXPERT JUDGMENT, IT'S HARD -- IMMEDIATELY, I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING THAT WOULD CLEARLY NOT FIT UNDER ONE CATEGORY OR THE OTHER. Q. WHERE WOULD THINGS SUCH AS TREND ANALYSES FALL? A. TREND ANALYSIS IS A MODELING TECHNIQUE. IT'S A STATISTICAL TECHNIQUE. IT, GENERALLY, IS THOUGHT OF AS RETROSPECTIVE. YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE PAST. Q. AS A WAY TO PREDICT THE FUTURE? A. NOT NECESSARILY. Q. OKAY. SO HOW ABOUT A REGRESSION ANALYSIS? WOULD THAT BE THE SAME THING? A. NO. IT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT YOU WERE REGRESSING. Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD YOU -- WOULD THAT -- COULD THAT DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 29 BE USED AS A PREDICTIVE--- A. CERTAINLY. Q. ---APPROACH? HOW WOULD YOU USE IT AS A PREDICTIVE APPROACH? A. IN MANY WAYS. Q. IN THE WATER QUALITY CONTEXT THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. A. BUT EVEN WITHIN THE WATER QUALITY CONTEXT, IN MANY WAYS. Q. WELL, LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR MODEL -- THE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE ME FOR YOUR MODEL. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. IN THAT SPECIFIC SITUATION, WOULD YOU USE -- COULD YOU USE REGRESSION ANALYSIS? A. CERTAINLY. YOU COULD -- IF YOU HAD DATA, LET'S SAY, ON POLLUTANT INPUT ON RESPONSE OF CONCERN AND ON FACTORS THAT RELATE TO HOW THE POLLUTANT INPUT IS CONVERTED INTO THE RESPONSIVE CONCERN, SAY, THE CONCENTRATION, YOU COULD USE THOSE DATA AND REGRESSION ANALYSIS TO FIT A MODEL TO ALLOW YOU TO PREDICT THAT RESPONSIVE CONCERN -- THE CONCENTRATION AS A FUNCTION OF THE INPUT AND THE OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE IMPORTANT. AND THAT MODEL COULD WELL BE USED IN A PREDICTIVE SENSE. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 30 Q. I GUESS I'M HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING. WHEN YOU MAKE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN JUDGMENT OR EVALUATING THE PRESENT AND THE PAST--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---AS OPPOSED TO WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT A MINUTE AGO IN THE MODELING, AREN'T YOU, IN EFFECT, USING PRESENT AND PAST DATA TO--- A. THE DIFFERENCE -- YOU REFERRED--- Q. ---CREATE YOUR MODEL? A. ---TO TREND ANALYSIS. TREND ANALYSIS IS SIMPLY LOOKING AT A -- IF WE CONFINE IT TO ONE VARIABLE OR SEVERAL ONE-VARIABLE ANALYSES, IT'S SIMPLY LOOKING AT HOW LEVELS OF THAT VARIABLE HAVE TRACKED OVER TIME. IT HAS NOTHING THAT IS CORRELATIVE WITH REGARDS TO RELATING IT TO ANOTHER VARIABLE. Q. MEANING THE NEXT ONE, THE FUTURE? A. NO, MEANING THE LOADING. IN OTHER WORDS, WE COULD DO A TREND OF LOADING OVER TIME. WE COULD DO A TREND OF IN-LAKE CONCENTRATION OVER TIME. WHAT THE REGRESSION IS DOING IS LINKING THOSE TWO. Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR -- STRIKE THAT. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 31 WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) WITNESS: I WONDER IN ABOUT TEN OR FIFTEEN MINUTES IF WE CAN TAKE A BREAK--- MR. REID: OKAY. SURE. WITNESS: ---SO I CAN HAVE A SANDWICH? MR. REID: OKAY. EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES: Q. I'VE LOOKED AT YOUR RESUME, AND I WANTED TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT SOME THINGS THERE. YOUR UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE FROM CORNELL IS LISTED AS ENGINEERING PHYSICS. WHAT SPECIFIC AREAS DID YOU FOCUS ON? A. I DIDN'T FOCUS, ACTUALLY, OTHER THAN -- ENGINEERING DEGREES ARE HIGHLY STRUCTURED AND YOU HAVE RELATIVELY FEW OPTIONS. AND I TOOK THE STANDARD CURRICULUM IN ENGINEERING PHYSICS. Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO DO WITH THAT DEGREE OR -- GO TO SCHOOL SOME MORE, OBVIOUSLY. A. YEAH. Q. NO, BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WERE YOU GOING TO BUILD BUILDINGS? A. YEAH. I DIDN'T -- I HONESTLY DIDN'T--- Q. WERE YOU GOING TO CONSTRUCT WETLANDS OR--- DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 32 A. ---KNOW. I WAS NOT, AT THAT TIME, TERRIBLY THOUGHTFUL ABOUT WHERE I WAS HEADED WITH MY PROGRAM. IT LOOKED INTERESTING, AND I WENT INTO IT. Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE ANY WORK IN YOUR UNDERGRADUATE DEGREES THAT DEALT WITH WATER QUALITY CONSIDERATIONS? A. NO. Q. ANYTHING AT ALL THAT RELATES TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW, DIRECTLY? A. NOT DIRECTLY. Q. OKAY. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, IT, I UNDERSTAND, GENERALLY--- A. YEAH. IT ALL RELATES, YEAH. Q. ---IT ALL RELATES AT SOME LEVEL, BUT--- A. YEAH. Q. ---I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIFICALLY. A. NO. Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT LED YOU TO HARVARD INTO ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE? A. IN MY SENIOR YEAR AT CORNELL, FALL SEMESTER, I REALIZED THAT ENGINEERING PHYSICS WAS NOT FOR ME AS A CAREER. AND I WENT OVER TO THE CIVIL ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT AND MET SOME FACULTY AND DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 33 INQUIRED ABOUT BECOMING INVOLVED WITH PROJECTS IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES. AND WHAT STIMULATED ME TO LOOK INTO ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES, I DON'T RECALL. BUT I SUSPECT IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH EARTH DAY. AND I MET A PROFESSOR, CHARLES REVELLE, WHO WAS WORKING ON SOLID WASTE RECYCLE, SPECIFICALLY, JUNK CARS. AND IT WAS FORTUITOUS. HE WAS LOOKING FOR SOME HELP ON A PROJECT. AND HE INVOLVED ME ON A PROJECT. I BECAME INTERESTED IN IT, AND WE DEVELOPED A GOOD WORKING AND PERSONAL RAPPORT. I DECIDED ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES WAS A CAREER THAT I WANTED TO PURSUE OR, AT LEAST, EXPLORE MORE. AND HE GUIDED ME IN THE DIRECTION OF GRADUATE PROGRAMS. AND SO I APPLIED TO SEVERAL AND CHOSE HARVARD. Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR WORK FOR YOUR MASTER'S, DID YOU DEAL WITH ANY AREAS THAT YOU NOW DEAL WITH IN WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND WHAT YOU'RE HERE ABOUT? A. WHEN I STARTED AT HARVARD, I INTENDED TO GO INTO SOLID WASTE RECYCLE BECAUSE OF THAT -- BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I HAD BEEN EXPOSED TO. AND THE MASTER OF SCIENCE, OR S.M. DEGREE, AT HARVARD IS HANDED TO YOU AFTER A YEAR OF COURSE WORK; NO THESIS REQUIREMENT. IT'S JUST -- I WAS IN A Ph.D. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 34 PROGRAM. AND THAT WAS LITERALLY IN THE MAIL AFTER A YEAR. SO, ALL I HAD DONE WAS TAKE ONE YEAR OF COURSES. AND I DON'T RECALL AFTER ONE YEAR THAT I HAD ANY PARTICULAR CHANGE IN CAREER DIRECTION AT THAT TIME. Q. OKAY. AND, AS YOU CONTINUED, AT SOME POINT YOU DID, I ASSUME. A. YES, I DID. I--- Q. AND WHERE -- WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN? A. SOMETIME -- IT COULD HAVE OCCURRED IN THE SECOND SEMESTER OF THAT FIRST YEAR. IT COULD HAVE OCCURRED IN THE FIRST SEMESTER OF THE SECOND YEAR, JUST AFTER THE S.M. DEGREE. I BECAME INTERESTED IN WATER QUALITY; HAD TAKEN SOME COURSES DEALING WITH CHEMISTRY AND BIOLOGY. AND THEN IN THE SUMMER BETWEEN MY SECOND AND THIRD YEARS AT HARVARD, I HAD A SUMMER JOB SUPPORTED THROUGH THE APPALACHIAN MOUNTAIN CLUB ON LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE, NEW HAMPSHIRE, DOING SOME WATER QUALITY SAMPLES. AND THAT WAS QUITE INTERESTING TO ME AND REALLY LED TO THE EMPHASIS IN WATER QUALITY. Q. WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR IN LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE? A. JUST BACKGROUND DATA COLLECTION THAT WOULD AID THE REGIONAL PLANNING AGENCY, LAKES REGION PLANNING DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 35 COMMISSION, IN UNDERSTANDING SOMETHING ABOUT HOW THE DEVELOPMENT OCCURRING IN THE LAKE'S REGION WAS AFFECTING WATER QUALITY. Q. AND YOU WERE BASICALLY SAMPLING? WAS THAT THE EXTENT OF THE WORK? A. YEAH. I WAS SAMPLING. I WAS ALSO HELPING TO WRITE SOME NON-TECHNICAL MATERIAL ON WATER QUALITY CONCEPTS FOR THE LAYPERSON THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION COULD DISTRIBUTE TO HELP EXPLAIN WHY THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT WATER QUALITY. Q. AND SO, WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO HARVARD DID YOU BEGIN TO TAKE COURSES IN THE -- RELATING TO WATER QUALITY? A. WELL, BY THAT TIME -- THE THIRD YEAR IS REALLY THE POINT AT WHICH YOU SWITCH FROM EMPHASIS OF COURSE WORK TO EMPHASIS ON RESEARCH. AND SO, WHEN I CAME BACK TO HARVARD I TOOK MY QUALIFYING EXAM FOR THE Ph.D. AND PRESENTED AT THAT EXAM SOME MATERIAL DEALING WITH WATER QUALITY MODELING AS THE DIRECTION -- PROPOSED DIRECTION FOR MY DISSERTATION. Q. WAS THAT RELATED TO THE WORK YOU HAD DONE IN THE SUMMER OR A DIFFERENT WORK? A. NOT REALLY -- WELL, IN THE SENSE THAT IT DEALT DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 36 WITH EUTROPHICATION. BUT THE SUMMER WORK INVOLVED FIELD STUDIES IN NON-TECHNICAL WRITING; WHEREAS, THE DISSERTATION WAS APT TO INVOLVE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AND MODELING. Q. WHAT'S EUTROPHICATION? A. NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT. Q. AND WHAT DREW YOU TO THAT PARTICULAR TOPIC? A. I CAN'T RECALL EXACTLY, BUT I THINK, LIKELY, THE WORK IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHICH FOCUSED ON EUTROPHICATION; COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT THE U.S. EPA WAS IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION SURVEY, WHICH IS A MONITORING PROGRAM THAT WAS -- THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE EARLY '70'S THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY MONITORING ROUGHLY 700 LAKES FOR NUTRIENT INPUTS AND NUTRIENT CONCENTRATIONS IN THE LAKES. AND SO, THERE WAS OPPORTUNITY TO GET AN EARLY LOOK AT A NATIONWIDE DATA SET. Q. WAS THERE ANY FOCUS ON PARTICULAR NUTRIENTS OR JUST ON THE--- A. PHOSPHORUS AND, TO A MUCH LESSER DEGREE, NITROGEN. Q. NOW, WHEN DID THE INTEREST IN PHOSPHORUS FIRST DEVELOP THAT LED TO THIS PROGRAM THAT YOU DESCRIBED? I MEAN, GENERALLY, NOT JUST IN YOUR DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 37 LIFE BUT--- A. OH, I THINK PROBABLY EITHER THROUGH COURSE WORK AT HARVARD OR THE STUDY IN NEW HAMPSHIRE IT BECAME CLEAR THAT PHOSPHORUS WAS A KEY MANAGEMENT NUTRIENT FOR CONTROLLING EUTROPHICATION IN LAKES. Q. OKAY. WHY DID ANYBODY CARE ABOUT EUTROPHICATION IN LAKES? A. VALUATION IN TERMS OF PUBLIC EXPERIENCE SEEMED TO RELATE FAIRLY HEAVILY TO AESTHETICS CONDITIONS THAT TIED INTO EUTROPHICATION. FLOATING ALGAL BLOOMS WERE OBJECTIONABLE AQUATIC PLANTS; CHANGES IN FISH SPECIES, DOMINANCE. ALL OF THOSE ARE RELATED TO NUTRIENTS AND EUTROPHICATION AND PEOPLE TENDED TO RESPOND TO THOSE AS MUCH AS TO ANYTHING IN EVALUATION OF WATER QUALITY. Q. WHEN DID THIS INTEREST IN EUTROPHICATION START? A. IN GENERAL IN--- Q. IN GENERAL. A. ---PUBLIC? Q. YEAH, IN THE PUBLIC. A. I CAN'T SAY FOR CERTAIN, BUT THERE WAS, CLEARLY, QUITE A BIT OF CONCERN ABOUT -- PUBLICLY AND FAIRLY WIDESPREAD ABOUT THE GREAT LAKES AND LAKE ERIE IN THE MID-'60'S. AND THERE WAS CONCERN DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 38 ABOUT LARGE LAKES IN EUROPE ABOUT THAT TIME, AS WELL. Q. AND THAT WAS A EUTROPHICATION PROBLEM? A. YES, YES. Q. AS OPPOSED TO OTHER KINDS--- A. AS FAR AS--- Q. ---OF TOXIC POLLUTANTS? A. YES, YES. Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT'S RELATED, IN PART, TO THE AESTHETICS INVOLVED? A. WELL, I THINK PUBLIC RESPONSE IS IN RELATION TO AESTHETICS THAT TIE INTO EUTROPHICATION. Q. IS IT WIDELY -- IS IT A WIDELY HELD VIEW THAT EUTROPHICATION IS SOMETHING BAD? A. IT'S NOT UNIVERSALLY HELD, I BELIEVE, BUT IT'S WIDELY HELD, YES. Q. DO YOU HOLD THAT VIEW? A. IN A PERSONAL SENSE, NO. Q. WHY NOT? A. BECAUSE I HAVE EXPERIENCED DIFFERENT SITUATIONS ENJOYING DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WATER BODIES, SOME OF WHICH ARE NOT EUTROPHIC AND SOME OF WHICH ARE. Q. I DON'T UNDERSTAND. A. WHEN I WAS IN NEW ENGLAND, I ENJOYED THE WATER DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 39 QUALITY AND THE WATER BODIES BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT EUTROPHIC. THEY WERE CLEAR, CLEAN, VERY PLEASANT WATER BODIES. WHEN I TAUGHT AT MICHIGAN STATE, WE LIVED ON A SHALLOW, MAN-MADE POND THAT WAS HIGHLY EUTROPHIC; BUT IT WAS WONDERFUL FOR LARGE-MOUTH BASS FISHING. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU BELIEVE IT'S A VALUE JUDGMENT IN TERMS OF WHETHER EUTROPHICATION IS SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED OR NOT. A. YEAH, DESIRABILITY IS A VALUE JUDGMENT. THAT'S RIGHT. Q. AND YOUR VALUE JUDGMENT ON THAT IS THAT YOU DON'T MIND EUTROPHICATION. A. MY VALUE JUDGMENT IS, IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION. Q. SO, IN SOME WATER BODIES YOU WOULD AGREE THAT EUTROPHICATION IS A NEGATIVE AS OPPOSED TO A POSITIVE? A. CERTAINLY. Q. HOW ABOUT THE EVERGLADES? A. I DON'T HAVE A VALUE JUDGMENT THERE. Q. WHY NOT? A. I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION ON THAT SITUATION TO HAVE A VALUE JUDGMENT. Q. JUST SO I'M CLEAR, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, THEN, DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 40 YOU DON'T HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER EUTROPHICATION OF THE EVERGLADES IS GOOD OR BAD? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. IS EUTROPHICATION OCCURRING IN THE EVERGLADES? A. I DON'T KNOW. MR. REID: OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU -- WE'LL TAKE A MINUTE AND YOU CAN EAT A MOUTHFUL? WITNESS: OKAY. (THEREUPON, A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) EXAMINATION BY MR. REID: Q. SOMETHING I WANTED TO ASK YOU TO FOLLOW UP TO THE LAST THING YOU SAID. IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT -- HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE A BODY OF WATER AS BEING EUTROPHIC? A. I DON'T HAVE A DEFINITION OTHER THAN THE SCIENTIFIC CLASSIFICATION SCHEME THAT'S APPROPRIATE. Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD THAT BE? A. I DON'T KNOW. IT VARIES FROM LOCATION TO LOCATION. Q. HOW IS IT DEFINED? A. TERMS OF NUTRIENT CONCENTRATIONS; WATER CLARITY. Q. SO -- AND NUTRIENT CONCENTRATIONS -- WOULD THAT BE IN PARTS PER BILLION, FOR INSTANCE? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 41 A. UH-HUH (YES). YES. Q. AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION OR IS THERE -- WELL, LET'S START BROADER. IS THERE SOME, GENERALLY, ACCEPTED LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS PARTS PER BILLION AT WHICH SCIENTISTS WOULD SAY THAT A BODY OF WATER IS EUTROPHIC? A. NO. Q. IS THAT BECAUSE IT VARIES FROM BODY TO BODY--- A. YES. Q. ---THAT 10 PARTS PER BILLION MIGHT BE EUTROPHIC IN ONE BODY OF WATER AND 200 PARTS PER BILLION MIGHT BE IN ANOTHER? A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY, YEAH. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE EVERGLADES WAS HISTORICALLY? A. NO. Q. NOW, YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOUR Ph.D. -- WE SORT OF GOT SIDETRACKED. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU DEVELOPED AN INTEREST IN THE SUBJECT OF EUTROPHICATION. A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. AND WHAT WAS ACTUALLY THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR RESEARCH? WHAT DISSERTATION OR -- I GUESS IT'S CALLED A DISSERTATION AT THAT LEVEL? A. YES. Q. OKAY. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 42 A. DEALT WITH STATISTICAL MODELS DESCRIBING EUTROPHICATION RELATIONSHIPS. Q. DID YOU FOCUS ON ANY PARTICULAR ACTUAL BODIES OF WATER? A. I USED THE NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION SURVEY DATA. Q. SO, YOU FOCUSED ON BODIES OF WATER THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY? A. YES. Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR DISSERTATION? I KNOW TO GET YOUR Ph.D. BUT--- A. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. Q. ---BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD TO TELL ME WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO PROVE OR DISPROVE OR--- A. I WAS TRYING TO--- Q. ---FIND OUT. A. ---LEARN A SET OF METHODS AND DEVELOP GOOD STATISTICAL MODELS. Q. FOR WHAT? A. DESCRIBING THE, AS I MENTIONED, EUTROPHICATION RELATIONSHIPS. Q. SO YOU LOOKED AT -- I'M INTERESTED IN HOW YOU WENT ABOUT THIS. YOU TOOK ALL THE DATA THAT YOU FOUND. AND I ASSUME THAT DATA WOULD BE THAT CERTAIN BODIES OF WATER HAD CERTAIN PARTS PER BILLION OF DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 43 PHOSPHORUS, FOR INSTANCE. A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. WOULD THAT BE THE ONLY DATA YOU WERE LOOKING AT AS--- A. WE LOOKED AT A VARIETY OF DATA ON NUTRIENT INPUTS, WATER INPUT, EUTROPHICATION MEASURES IN LAKES; AND LOOKED AT RELATIONSHIPS. Q. AND WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE? A. WASN'T A SINGLE CONCLUSION. Q. SURE. A. CONCLUDED THAT THERE WERE RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE EUTROPHICATION VARIABLES AND THESE WERE THE RELATIONSHIPS WE FOUND. Q. OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME OF THOSE RELATIONSHIPS? A. NO. Q. OF HOW MANY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. GEE, I DON'T REMEMBER. WE LOOKED--- Q. HOW MANY--- A. ---AT SEVERAL, NOT--- Q. ---HOW MANY VARIABLES WERE YOU LOOKING AT? A. I WAS LOOK -- I LOOKED AT AS MANY AS 30 OR 40 VARIABLES, AS I RECALL. Q. AND ALL THESE ARE TRACKED BY THE NATIONAL DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 44 STATISTICS THAT YOU WERE LOOKING AT -- THOSE THAT YOU WERE USING? A. YEAH, THEY WERE ALL FROM THE NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION SURVEY. Q. YOU DIDN'T GO OUT AND DO ANY TESTING YOURSELF. A. NO, I DIDN'T, NO. Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT WAS THE ULTIMATE CONTRIBUTION TO THE FIELD THAT YOU THINK YOUR DISSERTATION MADE? A. IT PROVIDED A SET OF STATISTICAL RELATIONSHIPS DESCRIBING THESE VARIABLES AND THE ERRORS OF PREDICTION. Q. CAN YOU THINK OF ANY RELATIONSHIPS? I'M JUST -- BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, SO I HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU WERE DOING. A. UH-HUH (YES). PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION PREDICTED AS A FUNCTION OF PHOSPHORUS LOADING, MEAN DEPTH WATER RESIDENCE TIME. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION THERE? A. THERE WAS A RELATIONSHIP. Q. OKAY. AND HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT YOUR WORK TO BE USED BY OTHER SCIENTISTS? A. I'D EXPECT THAT THE STATISTICAL MODELS WOULD BE USED AS PREDICTIVE TOOLS. Q. NOW, HAVE YOU USED ANY -- SPECIFICALLY, ANY OF DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 45 THAT DATA IN THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE IN THIS CASE? A. NO. Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANY OF YOUR COLLEAGUES THAT ARE WORKING ON THIS AT DUKE WETLAND CENTER HAVE USED ANY OF YOUR WORK? A. I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH. Q. NOW, WHY IS THAT? THAT WOULD SEEM TO RELATE TO ME, SO MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING. A. I'M NOT SURE ANY OF THEM ARE AWARE OF THE NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION SURVEY, SINCE IT WAS TWENTY YEARS AGO. THIS DEALT WITH LAKES AND I JUST -- I DON'T -- I HAVEN'T SHOWN IT TO THEM. I JUST DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'D BE AWARE OF THE WORK. Q. WOULD IT -- WOULD THE FACT THAT IT DEALT WITH LAKES MEAN THAT IT WOULD HAVE NO APPLICATION TO THE EVERGLADES? A. NO, HUH-UH (NO). Q. WHAT LEVEL OF APPLICATION DO YOU THINK IT WOULD HAVE TO THE EVERGLADES? A. I'M REALLY NOT SURE, BUT I JUST DON'T THINK THAT THEY WOULD GO TO THAT LITERATURE TO ENHANCE THEIR WORK ON THE EVERGLADES. Q. NOW, WE'LL GET INTO IT, OBVIOUSLY, IN MORE DETAIL. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 46 YOU'RE WORKING ON A MODEL IN THIS CASE. A. OH, IN THIS CASE WITH THE--- Q. YES. A. ---EVER -- YES. Q. YEAH. AND I ASSUME THE MODEL HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH NUTRIENTS AND OTHER VARIABLES IN A -- THAT ARE INCLUDED IN THE EVERGLADES IN THE PROCESS OF EUTROPHICATION. A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. BUT NONE OF YOUR WORK BEFORE, DEALING WITH THE SAME SUBJECT MATTERS IN LAKES, IS PROVIDING YOU ANY BASIS FOR WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW? A. IT'S PROVIDING ME WITH AN UNDERSTANDING THAT VARIABLES SUCH AS NUTRIENT LOADING, MEAN DEPTH AND WATER RESIDENCE TIME MIGHT BE IMPORTANT. Q. BUT IT'S NOT TELLING YOU THAT THOSE VARIABLES RELATE IN THE EVERGLADES THE SAME WAY THEY RELATED IN YOUR RESEARCH OR IN THE LAKE SURVEY? A. IT'S NOT TELLING ME THAT, NO, HUH-UH (NO). NO. Q. BUT ARE YOU TRYING TO FIND THAT OUT OR--- A. NO, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD REFERENCE THAT WORK, FOR EXAMPLE. I JUST THINK IT WOULD HAVE THAT LITTLE APPLICABILITY. Q. WHAT OTHER WORK DID YOU DO AT HARVARD THAT RELATES DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 47 TO WHAT YOU'RE NOW DOING? A. WELL, OF COURSE, AS I MENTIONED, THAT WORK -- DISSERTATION RELATES IN A VERY LIMITED DEGREE. Q. SURE. DID ANYTHING YOU DID AT HARVARD RELATE TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW, I GUESS, IS A BETTER QUESTION? A. I MEAN, YES, IN TERMS OF EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE RELATED TO EVERYTHING ELSE. BUT NO, IN TERMS OF ANY SUBSTANTIVE RELATIONSHIP. Q. UP THROUGH THE COMPLETION OF YOUR Ph.D., HAD YOU DONE ANY WORK RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES? A. NO. Q. HAD YOU EVER BEEN IN THE EVERGLADES? A. YES, HIGH SCHOOL VACATION. Q. OKAY. ON YOUR WAY TO THE BEACH, I GUESS, RIGHT? A. NO, NO. WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE, BUT, NO. Q. WHEN YOU FINISHED OR -- STRIKE THAT. BETWEEN '72 AND '77 WERE YOU EMPLOYED? A. YES. Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING DURING THAT TIME? A. DURING THE SUMMER, AS I MENTIONED, I WORKED ON THAT STUDY FUNDED BY THE APPALACHIAN MOUNTAIN CLUB--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 48 A. ---AND LAKES REGION PLANNING COMMISSION. AND I CONTINUED THAT WORK WITH THE LAKES REGION PLANNING COMMISSION RIGHT THROUGH GRADUATION. Q. OKAY. ULTIMATELY, WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT WORK? WAS THERE SOMETHING PUBLISHED OR--- A. THEY PUBLISHED SEVERAL AGENCY REPORTS, AND I GUESS THAT'S ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE WORK. Q. OKAY. I ASSUME NOTHING THAT YOU DID THERE RELATES TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW. A. NO, IT DOESN'T. HUH-UH (NO). Q. WHEN YOU FINISHED YOUR Ph.D., THEN, WHAT WAS YOUR NEXT JOB? A. I TAUGHT AT MICHIGAN STATE. Q. AND FOR WHAT YEARS? A. 1977 TO 1980. Q. WHAT WAS YOUR TITLE? A. I WAS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT? A. IT'S A DEPARTMENT IN THE COLLEGE OF NATURAL RESOURCES THAT INCLUDES WATER RESOURCES, RESOURCE ECONOMICS AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 49 Q. OKAY. WHAT COURSES OR WHAT AREAS DID YOU TEACH IN THERE? A. I TAUGHT WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT -- GEE, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER -- I THINK WATER QUALITY MODELING. Q. SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU'RE TEACHING NOW? A. YEAH, PRECURSORS, UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND WHAT WAS THE FOCUS OF THOSE COURSES AT THAT POINT IN TIME? A. SAME GENERAL COURSE TOPICS, REALLY, AS I RECALL. Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU DEAL IN ANY WAY WITH SUBJECTS CONCERNING EUTROPHICATION IN THOSE COURSES? A. I'M SURE I DID, YEAH. Q. HOW ABOUT THE EVERGLADES? A. I DOUBT VERY MUCH THAT I DID. Q. WHAT BODIES OF WATER -- OR WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN YOUR FOCUS AT THAT TIME IN THOSE COURSES? A. WATER BODIES, IN GENERAL. IF I HAD CASE STUDIES, THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN GREAT LAKES RELATED. Q. WHAT DO YOU CALL THE EVERGLADES, BY THE WAY, JUST SO WE KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING? I MEAN, IT'S NOT A LAKE, OBVIOUSLY. A. OH, I THINK OF IT AS A WETLAND. Q. A WETLAND AND WHAT--- A. YEAH, A WETLAND. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 50 Q. ---HOW DO YOU DEFINE "WETLAND"? A. A LAND AREA THAT IS WET MUCH OF THE YEAR AND THAT IS DOMINATED BY ROOTED AQUATIC VEGETATION AND IS SHALLOW. Q. WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER A "BOG"? A. I HAVE NO OPINION. I SHOULDN'T SAY "OPINION." I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OR DEFINITION, YEAH. Q. IS THAT -- CAN YOU USE THAT WORD INTERCHANGEABLY? A. I PROBABLY WOULD. IT MAY NOT BE CORRECT. Q. HOW ABOUT "SWAMP"? A. I'D PROBABLY USE THAT WORD INTERCHANGEABLY, TOO. Q. BUT YOU CAN'T TELL ME ANY SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR DISTINGUISHING--- A. NO. Q. ---AMONG THOSE WORDS? A. NO, HUH-UH (NO). Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER MICHIGAN STATE? A. I CAME TO DUKE. Q. AND, WHEN YOU CAME TO DUKE, WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST JOB? A. I WAS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF FORESTRY IN ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES. Q. OKAY. IS THAT A PRECURSOR, IN PART, AT LEAST, TO THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 51 A. YES, IT IS. Q. WAS IT DIVIDED BETWEEN FORESTRY AND THE ENVIRONMENT OR NAME CHANGE OR WHAT? A. NO. FORESTRY ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES MERGED WITH THE MARINE LAB TO FORM THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT. Q. OKAY. WHEN WAS THAT? A. 1991. Q. OKAY. IT'S BEEN THAT -- BEEN FAIRLY RECENT? A. YES, UH-HUH (YES). Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU CAME TO DUKE, DID YOU TEACH THE SAME COURSES THAT YOU WERE TEACHING AT MICHIGAN STATE AND THAT YOU'RE TEACHING NOW? A. LET ME THINK. JUST -- YEAH, I TAUGHT WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT INITIALLY. I THINK THAT WAS THE FIRST COURSE I TAUGHT. AND I ALSO TAUGHT REGRESSION ANALYSIS AND INTRODUCTORY STATISTICS. Q. THE STATISTICS COURSES -- WHAT SCHOOL WERE THEY TAUGHT THROUGH? A. FORESTRY AND ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES. Q. TO GRADUATE STUDENTS? A. GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS, YEAH. Q. ALL RIGHT. WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU TAUGHT SINCE YOU'VE BEEN AT DUKE THAT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ABOUT DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 52 ALREADY TODAY? A. LET ME THINK. I TAUGHT, FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, WATER RESOURCES MODELING, WHICH -- A SPECIAL TOPICS COURSE -- WHICH WAS A SPECIAL TOPICS COURSE. AND WHAT ELSE? THAT'S THE -- MAY BE SOMETHING ELSE LISTED THERE, BUT, OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, IT--- Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WATER RESOURCES MODELING AND WATER QUALITY MODELING? A. WATER RESOURCES MODELING WAS A COURSE THAT TWO OUT OF THREE OF OUR WATER FACULTY TAUGHT AT ANY ONE TIME, AND WE JUST BROUGHT IN SPECIAL TOPICS AT THE TIME WE WERE INVOLVED. Q. AND WHEN WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN? A. WHEN WOULD I HAVE TAUGHT THAT? Q. WHEN YOU WOULD HAVE TAUGHT IT, YEAH. A. I DON'T REMEMBER. LATE '80'S -- MID- TO LATE '80'S. SEEMS TO ME I TAUGHT IT A COUPLE OF YEARS. Q. OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU -- WHEN DID YOU ADD THE APPOINTMENTS IN THE OTHER SCHOOLS? A. ENGINEERING WAS ADDED PRETTY QUICKLY, WITHIN A YEAR OR TWO OF WHEN I ARRIVED. IN STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES, I HAD AN APPOINT -- RESEARCH FACULTY APPOINTMENT WITH THEM FOR A COUPLE OF DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 53 YEARS, WHICH MIGHT HAVE BEEN LATE '80'S TO EARLY '90'S. AND THEN, THE STANDARD FACULTY APPOINTMENT BEGAN THIS JANUARY. Q. SO NOW YOU'RE AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR IN THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES? A. UH-HUH (YES). YES. Q. SO I CAN -- ON YOUR CV THAT I HAVE, I CAN "X" OFF RESEARCH. A. YES. Q. OKAY. IS THAT LIKE A PROMOTION OR IS IT JUST DIFFERENT FUNCTION? A. IT'S JUST A CHANGE OF TITLES. THEY ELIMINATED -- AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY ELIMINATED THE RESEARCH FACULTY AND APPOINTED SOME OF THEM ASSISTANT AND ASSOCIATE WITHOUT THE WORD "RESEARCH." Q. WHAT IS THE REASON THAT YOU WOULD HAVE APPOINTMENTS IN OTHER SCHOOLS? IS THAT JUST, YOU EARN MORE MONEY DOING THAT OR--- A. THERE'S NO MONEY ASSOCIATED WITH IT. IT--- Q. WHY DOES IT HAPPEN? A. ---IT FACILITATES INTERACTIONS. IT'S AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT SOMEONE'S INVOLVED IN AN AREA OF STUDY. Q. NOW, WHAT IS THE -- STRIKE THAT. WHEN DID YOU -- DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 54 YOU CAME AS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, I THINK YOU SAID. A. YES. Q. WHEN DID YOU GET PROMOTED TO ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR? A. BELIEVE IT WAS 1985. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WOULD BE THE NEXT STEP? A. FULL. Q. AND HAVE YOU -- HAS THAT COME UP FOR YOU YET? A. NO. Q. WHEN WILL THAT COME UP? A. IT'S NOT MY DECISION. Q. OH, THERE'S NO SORT OF ROUTINE? A. NO. Q. CAN YOU ASK ABOUT IT OR DOES SOMEONE JUST COME IN ONE DAY AND TELL YOU? A. I CAN ASK ABOUT IT, YEAH, OR SOMEONE WILL -- A DEAN OR A COMMITTEE WILL DECIDE IT'S APPROPRIATE. Q. NOW, YOU'VE BEEN AN ASSOCIATE FOR ABOUT SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS. A. YEAH. Q. IS THAT THE NORM AT DUKE OR IN YOUR PARTICULAR AREA? A. I DON'T KNOW. IT VARIES. I DON'T KNOW. Q. OKAY. NOW, TENURE IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU'RE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 55 CALLED, I ASSUME, OR IS IT? A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? Q. WELL, DO YOU HAVE TENURE? A. YES. Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU GET TENURE? A. WHEN I WAS PROMOTED FROM ASSISTANT TO ASSOCIATE. Q. OKAY. AND IS THAT THE NORMAL TIME WHEN ONE GETS TENURE, WHEN YOU BECOME AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR? THAT'S WHAT I MEANT BY THAT. A. OH, OKAY. Q. IS IT UNRELATED TO YOUR TITLE OR--- A. YEAH. Q. ---OR DOES IT COME WITH THE TITLE? A. NO, IT VARIES FROM DEPARTMENT TO DEPARTMENT AS TO WHETHER IT'LL OCCUR THEN. Q. IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT EUTROPHICATION HAS BEEN PART OF THE COURSES THAT YOU'VE TAUGHT FOR THE ENTIRE TIME YOU'VE BEEN AT DUKE? A. FOR WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT AND WATER QUALITY MODELING, YES. Q. WHEN DID, SPECIFICALLY, YOU DEAL WITH THE EVERGLADES FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR TEACHING? A. I DON'T RECALL. MAY HAVE BEEN LAST YEAR. Q. AND WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO START DEALING WITH THE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 56 EVERGLADES IN YOUR TEACHING? A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU BEFORE, I NEEDED AN EXAMPLE TO HELP ILLUSTRATE THE REAL-WORLD APPLICABILITY OF METHODS, AND THAT WAS ONE THAT I CHOSE. Q. OKAY. SO THAT -- WHAT YOUR -- A MINUTE AGO THE HANDOUT THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT -- THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TIME EVERGLADES BECAME INVOLVED IN YOUR TEACHING? A. I THINK SO, YEAH. Q. NOW, THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER -- WHEN WAS THAT CREATED AS A CENTER? A. YOU ASKED BEFORE--- Q. YEAH. A. ---I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK THREE YEARS AGO. Q. OKAY. WERE YOU PART OF THE CENTER FROM ITS INCEPTION? A. YES. Q. HOW DOES THAT CHANGE WHAT YOU DO? A. NOT AT ALL. Q. SO, EVERYTHING IS THE SAME? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. DO YOU -- DOES IT CHANGE YOUR COMPENSATION? A. NO. Q. AND YOU SAID EARLIER THAT YOUR COMPENSATION COMES DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 57 ENTIRELY THROUGH DUKE? A. YES. Q. OKAY. A. WELL, I SAID THAT MY COMPENSATION COMES ENTIRELY THROUGH THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT. Q. OKAY. IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM THROUGH DUKE? A. WELL, IT DOESN'T COME THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF CIVIL ENGINEERING. Q. OKAY. NOW, IN ADDITION TO YOUR SALARY THAT YOU GET FOR -- THROUGH THE SCHOOL FOR BEING A PROFESSOR, DO YOU GET PAID FOR BEING A CONSULTANT? A. YES. Q. IS THAT DONE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF THE SCHOOL? A. YES. Q. OKAY. DOES DUKE HAVE ANY SORT OF GUIDELINES WITH REGARD TO ITS PROFESSORS AND CONSULTING WORK? A. DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR, YOU'RE PERMITTED ONE DAY A MONTH. Q. ONE DAY A MONTH? A. ONE DAY A WEEK -- I'M SORRY -- ONE DAY A WEEK, YEAH, YEAH. Q. OKAY. DOES ANYBODY ACTUALLY MONITOR THAT? A. THEY MIGHT IN SOME DEPARTMENTS. Q. DO THEY IN YOUR DEPARTMENT? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 58 A. NO. Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU FIRST BEGIN DOING OUTSIDE CONSULTING WORK IN YOUR CAREER? A. I DON'T RECALL. IT MAY HAVE BEEN -- OH, I WAS CONSULTING A LITTLE BIT WHEN I WAS A GRADUATE STUDENT. THAT'S RIGHT. Q. ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU CONSULT ANY AT MICHIGAN STATE? A. I DON'T REMEMBER DOING ANY THERE. Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU GOT TO DUKE, WHEN DID YOU FIRST BEGIN DOING CONSULTING WORK? A. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT MAY HAVE BEEN TEN YEARS AGO. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE -- WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST -- HOW DID YOU GET INTO THAT AREA? A. AS I HAVE SAID, I JUST DON'T REMEMBER HOW IT BEGAN AND -- I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. Q. OKAY. AS OF NOW, HOW MUCH OF YOUR TIME IS CONSULTING? HOW MUCH CONSULTING DO YOU DO? I KNOW, ONE DAY A WEEK. A. YEAH, ONE DAY A WEEK. Q. RIGHT. YOU'RE UNDER OATH, RIGHT? A. YEAH. MR. FITZGERALD: YOU COULD BE IN THE AWKWARD POSITION, LIKE, IF YOUR DEPARTMENT DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 59 HEAD WAS HERE OR--- MR. REID: YEAH, RIGHT. JUST THE LAWYERS HERE, YOU'RE SAFE. MR. FITZGERALD: ---OF HIM INVOKING YOUR RIGHTS SO YOUR ATTORNEY DOESN'T HEAR THIS. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? A. GOSH, I HAVEN'T DONE ANY -- WELL, I SHOULD TAKE THAT BACK. I'VE DONE -- IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS I'VE MAYBE DONE A WEEK OF -- A DAY OF CONSULTING. IT WILL VARY DURING THE TIME OF YEAR. Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. NOW, WE KNOW YOU'RE DOING CONSULTING FOR THE COOPERATIVE. A. NO, I'M NOT. Q. OH, YOU'RE NOT? A. NO. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. NO, I'M NOT. Q. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR THE FRUIT AND VEGETABLE GROWERS? A. NO, I'M NOT. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR ANY PRIVATE COMPANIES? A. I DON'T -- NO, HUH-UH (NO). DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 60 Q. WHO'S PAYING YOU TO BE HERE TODAY? A. NO ONE. Q. OKAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: COULD WE GO OFF THE RECORD FOR A SECOND? MR. REID: SURE. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MR. REID) HOW ABOUT FOR THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT IN THE EVERGLADES; ARE YOU CONSULTING FOR THEM NOW? A. NOW, WHICH GROUP IS THAT? Q. WELL, IT'S CALLED THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION--- A. I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT--- Q. ---DISTRICT. A. WHO? MR. FITZGERALD: EVERGLADES AGRICULTURAL AREA, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT. MR. REID: OKAY. YEAH. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE EXACT NAME WAS. A. WHO'S SUPPORTING THAT--- Q. (BY MR. REID) THE SUGAR INDUSTRY? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 61 A. NO, I'M NOT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU CONSULTING FOR ANYBODY WITH REGARD TO ANY OF THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING IN THE -- RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. YES. Q. ALL RIGHT. FOR WHOM? A. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU START THAT WORK? A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO. Q. OKAY. WHO CALLED YOU AND ASKED YOU TO CONSULT FOR THE DISTRICT? A. GARTH REDFIELD. Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT? A. I'M CO-CHAIRING THE MONITORING COMMITTEE -- THE SUBCOMMITTEE WITH BILL WALKER. Q. AND THAT'S A SUBCOMMITTEE TO WHAT? A. I GET MY ACRONYMS CONFUSED. Q. TOC? A. YEAH. Q. SAGE? A. TOC, YEAH. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK FOR SAGE? A. NO. Q. OR DO YOU KNOW WHAT SAGE IS? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 62 A. I'D SAY I'M -- I DON'T KNOW THE -- I DON'T HAVE A CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO. Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THE DISTRICT FOR YOUR WORK AS CO-CHAIR OF THE MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE? A. AS OF THIS MOMENT, NO, I DON'T. Q. DID YOU HAVE ONE? A. YES. Q. OKAY. AND HOW WAS YOUR COMPENSATION BASED ON THAT? A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? Q. HOW WAS IT SET? WAS IT A LUMP SUM, AN HOURLY RATE--- A. YEAH, THEY SET A CEILING. Q. OH, SO IT WAS A LUMP SUM FOR THE WORK THAT YOU WERE ASKED TO DO? A. WELL, THEY -- IT WAS A -- MAY HAVE BEEN A PURCHASE ORDER, AND I BILLED AGAINST IT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE TOTAL? A. BOY, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK IT WAS ROUGHLY NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($9,000.00). Q. AND HAVE YOU EXHAUSTED THOSE SUMS? A. YES. Q. SO, YOU'RE WAITING FOR A RENEWAL OR YOU'RE NOT DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 63 GOING TO BE DOING ANY MORE WORK? A. I'M WAITING FOR A RENEWAL. Q. DO YOU EXPECT ONE TO COME? A. GARTH TOLD ME ONE WAS COMING. Q. AND DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT'S GOING TO BE? A. NO. Q. YOU MAY HAVE SAID. WHEN DID YOU BEGIN THAT CONTRACT? A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO. Q. AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, THEN, YOU HAVE NO OTHER CONSULTANT'S JOBS--- A. IN FLORIDA, THAT'S CORRECT--- Q. ---CONNECTED WITH THE EVERGLADES? A. ---CORRECT. Q. OKAY. ASIDE FROM THE ONE WITH THE DISTRICT, HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONSULTING JOBS RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES, EVER? A. YES. Q. OKAY. AND LET'S GO BACK IN TIME, YOU KNOW, REVERSE CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. WHAT'S THE MOST RECENT ONE THAT YOU'VE HAD? A. LET ME THINK. I GUESS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MAYBE A YEAR AND A HALF AGO THROUGH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 64 Q. WERE YOU HIRED BY PEEPLES, EARL? A. YES. Q. AND FOR WHAT CLIENT OF PEEPLES, EARL WERE YOU HIRED TO PERFORM SERVICE? A. I THINK THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. WHO CALLED YOU FROM PEEPLES, EARL? A. GEE, I DON'T REMEMBER -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN RICK BURGESS. Q. NOW, YOU DIDN'T BRING ANY DOCUMENTS WITH YOU TODAY, DID YOU? A. NO. Q. OKAY. AND WOULD YOU HAVE RECORDS THAT WOULD REFLECT WHEN EXACTLY YOU HAD THIS CALL WITH RICK BURGESS? A. WHEN I HAD THE CALL? Q. YEAH. A. I BET I DON'T. Q. LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR CONSULTING WORK. DO YOU HAVE A SEPARATE CORPORATION SET UP TO DO THAT? A. NO. HUH-UH (NO). Q. SO, YOU'RE JUST PAID -- YOU SEND OUT BILLS AND YOU GET PAYMENTS. A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 65 Q. DO YOU CHARGE AN HOURLY RATE FOR THIS KIND OF WORK? A. EXCUSE ME. YES, I DO. Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR HOURLY RATE? A. IT VARIES. Q. GIVE ME THE RANGE. A. SEVENTY ($70.00) TO ONE HUNDRED ($100.00) AN HOUR. Q. WHAT MAKES A DISTINCTION OR WHAT MAKES YOU DECIDE WHICH TO CHARGE? A. SOMETIMES IT'S CONSTRAINED BY THE AGENCY ORGANIZATION. Q. OKAY. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE CONSULTING WORK THAT YOU DO, DO YOU KEEP RECORDS OR FILES SEPARATE FROM THE ONES YOU KEEP AT THE UNIVERSITY CONCERNING YOUR WORK AT DUKE? A. YES. Q. AND WHERE DO YOU KEEP THOSE FILES? A. AT HOME. Q. AND DO YOU HAVE A FILE THAT WOULD BE IDENTIFIED AS RELATING TO THIS ENGAGEMENT BY PEEPLES, EARL? A. I HAVE A STACK OF MATERIAL, YEAH -- FILES AND THAT. Q. OKAY. AND WOULD THAT INCLUDE NOT ONLY, WHAT WE'LL CALL, SUBSTANTIVE MATERIAL BUT WOULD ALSO INCLUDE DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 66 YOUR ADMINISTRATIVE MATERIAL FROM YOUR CONSULTING WORK? A. YES. Q. AND WOULD IT HAVE BILLS, FOR INSTANCE, THAT YOU SENT FOR YOUR WORK? A. PROBABLY DOES, YEAH. Q. AND WOULD IT HAVE LETTERS BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN YOU AND COUNSEL? A. YEAH. Q. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SPECIFICS OF THAT IN A LITTLE BIT, BUT I WANT TO WORK BACK TO GET ALL YOUR CONSULTANCIES BEFORE RICK BURGESS CALLED YOU. WHAT WAS THE ONE IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING THAT? A. NOW, YOU'RE REFERRING TO EVERGLADES IN FLORIDA? Q. WELL, NO, I MEAN ANY CONSULTING JOBS. A. ANY CONSULTING JOBS--- Q. YEAH. A. ---ANYWHERE? Q. RIGHT. A. OH, I CAN'T RECALL ALL THE CONSULTING ACTIVITIES I'VE HAD. AND I HAVE -- NO, I MEAN, I JUST COULDN'T DO THAT. Q. ALL RIGHT. WELL, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU HAVE NO CONTRACTS, EXCEPT THE ONE WITH THE DISTRICT? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 67 A. WELL, YOU'VE ASKED ME JUST ABOUT FLORIDA, AND THAT'S WHAT I RESPONDED TO. Q. OKAY. WELL, I MEANT TO BE BROADER IN THE BEGINNING. A. OKAY. Q. SO MAYBE WE GOT OFF ON THE WRONG TRACK. A. OKAY. YEAH. Q. TODAY, AS YOU SIT HERE, YOU DO HAVE SOME CONSULTING JOBS? A. YES. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO THEY RELATE TO? A. THE EVERGLADES, THE MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE THAT I MENTIONED--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---A PROJECT WITH THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE. Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU GET THAT JOB? A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO. Q. AND WHO HIRED YOU FOR THAT? A. TONY FEDERICO. Q. AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING THERE? A. SETTING UP A DECISION ANALYTIC FRAMEWORK FOR MANAGEMENT OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE. Q. WHAT SPECIFIC PROBLEM ARE YOU DEALING WITH WITH DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 68 LAKE OKEECHOBEE? A. EUTROPHICATION OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE. Q. AND WHAT WAS THE AMOUNT OF THAT CONTRACT? A. OH, BOY. FIFTEEN THOUSAND ($15,000.00)? Q. IS THAT STILL GOING ON? A. YES. Q. HAVE YOU PREPARED ANY WORK PRODUCT YET THAT YOU'D SUBMIT TO THE DISTRICT? A. A DRAFT MANUSCRIPT. Q. WHAT'S IT CALLED? A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE TITLE, BUT IT'S SOMETHING ABOUT DECISION ANALYSIS IN LAKE OKEECHOBEE. Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S JUST FOCUS ON FLORIDA--- A. OKAY. Q. ---FOR THE NEXT FEW QUESTIONS, AND THEN WE'LL GO BACK TO YOUR GENERAL WORK. A. OKAY. Q. WORKING BACK, WHAT IS THE NEXT CONSULTING JOB THAT YOU'VE HAD RELATING -- RELATED TO FLORIDA? A. TO FLORIDA? WITH LANDERS & PARSONS. Q. AND WHAT IS THAT? A. LOOKING AT EUTROPHICATION MODELING IN LAKE OKEECHOBEE. Q. WHO IS LANDERS & PARSONS? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 69 A. A LAW FIRM IN TALLAHASSEE. Q. AND ON WHOSE BEHALF DID THEY CONTACT YOU? A. THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. Q. AND YOU'RE BEING PAID BY THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE DIRECTLY? A. I WAS PAID--- Q. OKAY. A. ---YEAH. Q. THAT'S FINISHED? A. THAT'S FINISHED. Q. OKAY. AND HOW MUCH WAS THAT CONTRACT? A. THAT MUST HAVE BEEN ABOUT EIGHTY THOUSAND ($80,000.00). Q. AND WHAT WAS THE ASSIGNMENT THERE? A. WAS TO EVALUATE EUTROPHICATION MODELS IN DESCRIBING OR SIMULATING EUTROPHICATION IN LAKE OKEECHOBEE. Q. WHEN YOU SAY "EVALUATE," YOU MEAN YOU WERE LOOKING AT OTHER PEOPLE'S MODELS? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. WHOSE MODELS WERE YOU LOOKING AT? A. WE LOOKED AT MODELS THAT HAD BEEN PROPOSED BY SCIENTISTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 70 Q. OKAY. WAS THIS PART OF ANY PARTICULAR PROCEEDING, LEGAL OR ADMINISTRATIVE OR LEGISLATIVE WORK YOU WERE DOING? A. IT RELATED TO THE USE OF A MODEL TO SET PHOSPHORUS LIMITS ON THE LAKE. Q. SOMEBODY WAS TRYING TO SET PHOSPHORUS LIMITS ON THE LAKE AND HAD COME UP WITH A MODEL? A. THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AS FAR AS I KNOW, HAD SET PHOSPHORUS LIMITS ON THE LAKE ON THE BASIS OF USE OF A MODEL. Q. AND YOUR JOB WAS TO, IN EFFECT, CRITICIZE OR EVALUATE THAT MODEL? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR ULTIMATE CONCLUSION? WITNESS: I GUESS I NEED TO -- SOME ADVICE HERE. VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING I--- MR. RUSSELL: WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT IT'S -- I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU'RE GETTING INTO AREAS THAT YOU DIDN'T TESTIFY AS AN EXPERT OR WEREN'T HIRED AS A TESTIFYING EXPERT, THEN, IT WOULD BE PRIVILEGED. I DON'T KNOW--- WITNESS: WELL, EVERYTHING I DID FOR DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 71 THEM HAD "PRIVILEGED" AND "CONFIDENTIAL" ON THE TOP. MR. RUSSELL: WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT -- EVERYTHING -- EVERY PAPER THAT COMES OUT HAS -- LET'S TAKE A BREAK FOR A MINUTE. MR. REID: OKAY. (THEREUPON, A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) MR. REID: OKAY, BACK ON THE RECORD. WHAT'S THE ANSWER? MR. RUSSELL: I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER ANY OF THE QUESTIONS INVOLVING SPECIFICS OF THE -- OTHER THAN THE GENERAL INFORMATION HE'S ALREADY GIVEN, BECAUSE IT'S -- HE WAS HIRED AS A NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT BY OUR CLIENT AND IT GETS INTO AN AREA OF WORK PRODUCT. MR. REID: OKAY. CERTIFY THE QUESTION, PLEASE. MR. RUSSELL: I MIGHT SAY, ALSO, THAT NONE OF THE PRODUCTS OF THAT FORMATIVE -- OR SUPPORT THE BASIS FOR YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS PROCEEDING, DO THEY? WITNESS: NO, NO. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 72 MR. RUSSELL: OKAY. WITNESS: NOT AT ALL. Q. (BY MR. REID) WHEN WAS THE LANDERS & PARSONS--- MR. REID: WAIT A MINUTE. YOU SAID HIRED BY YOUR FIRM. MS. STINSON: CLIENT, HE SAID. MR. REID: CLIENT -- OH, I'M SORRY. OKAY. MR. RUSSELL: CLIENT. Q. ---WHEN WAS THE LANDERS & PARSONS WORK DONE FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE? A. I DON'T RECALL, BUT I THINK IT BEGAN ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO AND WAS COMPLETED A YEAR AND A HALF TO TWO YEARS AGO, MAYBE A YEAR AND A HALF. Q. DID THAT DIFFER FROM THE WORK THAT YOU DID FOR THE DISTRICT CONCERNING LAKE OKEECHOBEE? A. YES. Q. HOW WAS IT DIFFERENT? WITHOUT TELLING ME WHAT IT WAS, JUST--- A. IT INVOLVED EVALUATING MODELS THAT HAD BEEN USED AND--- Q. THAT'S THE WORK FOR LANDERS? A. YES. THE WORK FOR THE DISTRICT INVOLVES USE OF DECISION ANALYSIS TO GUIDE THEIR SCIENTIFIC WORK DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 73 IN SUPPORT OF DECISION MAKING. Q. OKAY. DID ANY OF THE WORK -- ANY OF THE LEARNING THAT YOU ACCOMPLISHED IN THE WORK FOR LANDERS & PARSONS ASSIST YOU IN YOUR WORK YOU DID FOR THE DISTRICT? A. IT HASN'T. NO, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT IT WOULD. IT HASN'T. Q. OKAY. KEEP GOING. WHAT OTHER CONSULTING JOBS HAVE YOU HAD RELATING TO FLORIDA OR THE EVERGLADES? MR. FITZGERALD: WHILE THE DOCTOR'S THINKING, I WOULD JOIN IN THE EXCEPTION ON THE DIRECTION NOT TO ANSWER ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS. A. I WORKED FOR CH2M-HILL. Q. (BY MR. REID) SAY THAT AGAIN. A. CH2M-HILL, H-I-L-L. Q. WHAT IS THAT? A. THAT'S A ENGINEERING CONSULTING FIRM THAT HAS BRANCHES NATIONWIDE. I ASSISTED THEM ON LAKE WORK IN ST. PETERSBURG. Q. WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM THERE? A. WATER QUALITY IN AN URBAN LAKE. Q. DID IT DEAL WITH EUTROPHICATION OR OTHER TYPES OF DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 74 POLLUTION? A. IT DEALT WITH EUTROPHICATION. IT MAY HAVE DEALT WITH OTHER PROBLEMS ALSO. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE ULTIMATE RESULT OF THAT WORK? DID YOU HAVE A PAPER? DID YOU TESTIFY--- A. I CONTRIBUTED SOME MODELING AND STATISTICAL GUIDANCE. Q. OKAY. WHAT ELSE? A. I THINK THAT'S ALL I'VE DONE IN FLORIDA. Q. OKAY. JUST SO I'M CLEAR, THEN, YOU HAVE NOT DONE ANY WORK FOR HOPPING, BOYD LAW FIRM; WILLIAM GREEN? A. I HAVE NOT BEEN -- I DON'T RECALL BEING EVER PAID AS A CONSULTANT. Q. AND HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK AS PART OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER WHERE YOU WEREN'T HIRED AS AN INDEPENDENT CONSULTANT, BUT YOU WERE STILL DOING WORK RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES ISSUES? A. I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY SALARY PAYMENT THROUGH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION. A. YEAH. Q. THE QUESTION WAS, HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER RELATING DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 75 TO THE EVERGLADES? A. YES. Q. WHEN DID YOU FIRST DO THAT WORK? A. LAST SUMMER. Q. LAST SUMMER? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND WHO APPROACHED YOU ABOUT DOING THAT WORK? A. THAT WORK DEVELOPED BECAUSE MY Ph.D. STUDENT, SONG QIAN, IS SUPPORTED THROUGH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. AND I'M WORKING WITH MY STUDENT, SO THAT'S HOW THE WORK BEGAN. Q. BY SUPPORTED THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER, DO YOU MEAN HE HAS A FELLOWSHIP OR SOMETHING SUCH AS THAT? A. HE RECEIVES FUNDS, HIS FINANCIAL AID, FROM THE WETLAND CENTER. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT PROJECT WAS HE WORKING ON? A. HE'S LOOKING AT -- HIS DISSERTATION IS GOING TO INVOLVE STATISTICAL AND MODELING METHODS OF WETLAND TRAPPING OF NUTRIENTS. Q. HOW DID HE COME TO SELECT THIS TOPIC? A. HE WAS INTERESTED IN DISSERTATION WORK ON STATISTICAL METHODS, AND HE'S PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN WETLANDS, SO IT WAS A NATURAL. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 76 Q. DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS SELECTING THIS TOPIC? A. I DON'T THINK I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS GOING TO THE WETLAND CENTER AND GETTING THIS OPPORTUNITY. Q. I'M SORRY. A. I DON'T THINK I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS DEVELOPING THIS OPPORTUNITY THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER. Q. NOW, YOU SAID HE'S YOUR GRADUATE STUDENT. A. YES, HE IS. Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? A. MEANS HE CAME TO DUKE TO WORK WITH ME AS A STUDENT ON HIS Ph.D. Q. AND YOU'RE HIS ADVISOR? A. YES, UH-HUH (YES). Q. WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR ROLE -- STRIKE THAT. FIRST OF ALL, WHAT HAS HE DONE, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, TO DATE ON HIS DISSERTATION? A. HE IS PRIMARILY AT THE STAGE OF COURSE WORK IN HIS GRADUATE STUDIES. HE WILL DEVELOP A PROPOSAL ON HIS DISSERTATION RESEARCH OVER THE NEXT THREE OR FOUR MONTHS. RIGHT NOW, HE'S JUST EXPLORING WHAT THAT PROPOSAL WOULD ENTAIL. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 77 Q. OKAY. SO, HE'S NOT MADE A PROPOSAL YET. A. NO, NOT A FORMAL PROPOSAL THAT HIS RESEARCH COMMITTEE WILL EXAMINE. Q. SO, THIS TOPIC THAT YOU GAVE ME IS A WORKING TOPIC, SO-TO-SPEAK? A. YES, YEAH. Q. AND HE'S DONE NOTHING TOWARD--- A. NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT. HE HASN'T -- WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER WAS CORRECT. HE HASN'T DEVELOPED A FORMAL PROPOSAL. HE'S IN THE MIDST OF EXPLORING THAT. Q. WELL, MY QUESTION WAS GOING TO BE THAT HE'S DONE NONE OF THE ACTUAL RESEARCH OR WORK CONCERNING THIS TOPIC AT THIS POINT. A. IN THE EXPLORATION PROCESS, HE'S LOOKED AT THINGS, BUT NOTHING THAT WILL BE THE--- Q. SO, WHAT HAS YOUR ROLE BEEN SINCE LAST SUMMER WHEN HE FIRST CAME TO YOU AND MENTIONED THAT HE WAS THINKING ABOUT DOING THIS? A. ENCOURAGING HIM TO PURSUE IT. Q. ANYTHING ELSE? A. I'VE LOOKED AT SOME OF HIS STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. I'VE PROVIDED A LOT OF GUIDANCE ON THE STATISTICAL METHODS HE MIGHT USE. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 78 Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANYTHING INDEPENDENT OF LOOKING AT WHAT HE'S DONE? A. NO. Q. NOW, ASIDE FROM THAT, WHAT OTHER -- OR HAVE YOU DONE ANY OTHER WORK RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES AS PART OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER? A. NO. Q. AND I MEAN EVER. A. YES, THAT'S CORRECT, NEVER. Q. DOES DUKE HAVE A POLICY, WHEN THE WETLAND CENTER DOES WORK FOR CONSULTANTS, THAT THE WORK HAS TO BE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN? A. I DON'T KNOW. WITNESS: YOU PROBABLY CAN ANSWER DUKE'S POLICY BETTER THAN I CAN. MR. REID: OKAY. HE CAN'T ANSWER. HE'S NOT ALLOWED. WITNESS: HE'S NOT ALLOWED. MR. FITZGERALD: YOU COULD JUST SWEAR THE ATTORNEY AND GET THIS -- IT'S A MINOR POINT, RIGHT? WITNESS: NO, I DON'T KNOW. MR. FITZGERALD: WE'D EVEN ACCEPT A PROFFER. DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 79 Q. (BY MR. REID) WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU'RE HIRED AS A PRIVATE CONSULTANT, ARE THERE ANY GUIDELINES IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU CAN DO? A. WHAT I CAN DO? Q. YEAH. A. THERE ARE GUIDELINES CONCERNING CONFLICT OF INTEREST AND -- NO. Q. OKAY. BUT ARE THERE ANY GUIDELINES CONCERNING CONFIDENTIALITY? A. CONFIDENTIALITY, MEANING WHAT I DO AS A CONSULTANT--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---THAT SHOULD NOT BE PUBLIC? Q. RIGHT. A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE AREN'T. Q. WHEN YOU WORK FOR SOMEONE AS A PRIVATE CONSULTANT AND YOU SEND IN WORK PRODUCT, DOES IT SAY "DUKE UNIVERSITY" ON THE WORK PRODUCT? A. NO. Q. DOES IT SAY "DUKE WETLAND CENTER" ON THE WORK PRODUCT? A. NO. Q. OKAY. NOW, DO YOU APPLY FOR GRANTS FROM TIME TO TIME? DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 80 A. YES. Q. HAVE YOU EVER APPLIED FOR ANY GRANT RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES? A. NO. Q. HAVE YOU BEEN PART OF A GROUP OR HAD ANY CONTACT AT ALL THROUGH REVIEW OR OTHERWISE OF A GRANT THAT SOMEONE ELSE WAS MAKING RELATING TO ISSUES CONCERNING THE EVERGLADES? A. A GRANT PROPOSAL? Q. YES. A. NO. Q. IS THERE SOMETHING WITH THE -- DID I MISSTATE SOMETHING, YOU KNOW? THE WAY YOU ANSWERED THE QUESTION MADE ME THINK THAT, IF I SAID IT A DIFFERENT WAY, THERE WOULD BE -- THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES. A. NO, I JUST WANTED TO GET CLEAR WHAT YOU WERE ASKING. Q. I'VE GOT A TWO-PAGE VERSION OF YOUR RESUME. A. YES. (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) Q. IT HAS SELECTED PRESENTATIONS AND SELECTED PUBLICATIONS AND C