STATE OF FLORIDA
DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF )
FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural )
Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038
ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039
WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040
)
and )
)
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; )
UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )
) ______________________
and )
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION
ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, )
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and ) OF
HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
) DR. KENNETH H. RECKHOW
Petitioners, ) ______________________
)
vs. )
)
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an Agency of the State )
of Florida, )
)
Respondent, )
)
and )
)
MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF )
FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF )
AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF )
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and the )
FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, )
)
Intervenors. )
___________________________________)
AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA
APRIL 8-9, 1993
REPORTED BY: PAMELA S. LILES
CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 2
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PETITIONERS: SUGARCANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE
MR. RICHARD A. RUSSELL OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC.
PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK AND WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC.
ONE BISCAYNE TOWER MS. DONNA H. STINSON
SUITE 3636 HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314
TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000
TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500
FOR RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: FOR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MR. THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD MANAGEMENT DISTRICT:
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY MR. R. BENJAMINE REID
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH
155 SOUTH MIAMI AVENUE & KAUFMAN, LTD.
SUITE 627 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33130 CENTER
100 S.E. SECOND STREET
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131
TELEPHONE: (305) 536-4425 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050
FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY:
MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN
KING, WALKER, LAMBE
& CRABTREE
3708 MAYFAIR STREET
POST OFFICE BOX 51549
DURHAM, N.C. 27717
TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 3
T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X
DEPONENT - DR. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW - 4/8-9/93
EXAMINATION: PAGES
BY MR. REID 4-245
BY MR. FITZGERALD 245-308
-------------------------------------------------------
E X H I B I T S I N D E X
NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED
(EXHIBITS NUMBER #1 - #25 WERE MARKED
DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF
DR. KENNETH H. RECKHOW, APRIL 8-9, 1993.)
-------------------------------------------------------
SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT 309
CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER 310
†††††††††匠䝉䅎啔䕒倠䝁⁅但⁒䕄佐䕎呎††††††††††††㌠㤰††††††††††䕃呒䙉䍉呁佉⁎䙏䌠問呒删偅剏䕔⁒††††††††††ㄳരഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 4
STIPULATIONS
ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, THE DEPOSITION OF DR. KENNETH
HOWLAND RECKHOW MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND
12:28 P.M. ON APRIL 8, 1993, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800
HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE EXECUTIVE BOARDROOM, DURHAM,
NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE PAMELA S. LILES, A
NOTARY PUBLIC.
THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT
OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED.
- - - - - - - - - - -
WHEREUPON,
KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW, Ph.D.,
HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN,
WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED
AS FOLLOWS:
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID:
Q. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME?
A. FULL NAME?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW.
Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS?
A. IT'S 2917 WADE ROAD, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA.
Q. WHAT DID YOU SAY YOUR MIDDLE NAME WAS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 5
A. HOWLAND.
Q. OH, HOWLAND. I THOUGHT YOU SAID ALLEN.
A. YEAH.
Q. AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE "H" WAS FOR. OKAY, BY
WHOM ARE YOU EMPLOYED?
A. DUKE UNIVERSITY.
Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR TITLE?
A. I'M AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT AND ALSO IN CIVIL AND ENVIRONMENTAL
ENGINEERING AND ALSO IN THE INSTITUTE OF
STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES.
Q. OKAY. SO, I CAN UNDERSTAND BETTER HOW YOU FIT IN,
CAN YOU -- I WANT YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
HOW DUKE IS ORGANIZED. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT A
SCHOOL, A DEPARTMENT, AND AN INSTITUTE. SO, CAN
YOU START AT THE TOP AND WORK DOWN?
A. SURE, AS BEST I KNOW. AND YOU MIGHT CORRECT ME
OR ADD, RALPH. DUKE IS ORGANIZED ON THE BASIS OF
SCHOOLS, WHICH MIGHT BE THOUGHT OF AS COLLEGES,
AND COLLEGE -- OR SCHOOL OF ARTS AND SCIENCES,
ENGINEERING, ENVIRONMENT, LAW, BUSINESS, ARE AMONG
THOSE, DIVINITY. SO, SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT IS
WHERE MY PRIMARY APPOINTMENT IS. AND ALL OF MY
SALARY COMES THROUGH THE SCHOOL OF THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 6
ENVIRONMENT. THE DEPARTMENT OF CIVIL ENGINEERING
IS IN THE SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING, AND I HAVE A
JOINT APPOINTMENT WITH THAT DEPARTMENT. WE HAVE
NO DEPARTMENTS IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION
SCIENCES IS YET ANOTHER STRUCTURE, SAY, LIKE THE
WETLAND CENTER IS A -- CENTERS ARE STRUCTURES.
EXACTLY HOW THAT FITS IN, I HAVE TO SAY, I DON'T
KNOW. IT'S THROUGH THE PROVOST'S OFFICE, AS FAR
AS I UNDERSTAND.
Q. OKAY. WELL, IF YOU'RE TAKING UNDERGRADUATE
COURSES IN STATISTICS, WHICH SCHOOL WOULD YOU BE
IN?
A. YOU WOULD -- AS AN UNDERGRADUATE, YOU WOULD EITHER
BE IN TRINITY COLLEGE, ARTS AND SCIENCES, OR IN
ENGINEERING.
Q. OKAY. AND ASSUMING YOU GET TO THE GRADUATE LEVEL
IN STATISTICS, WHERE WOULD YOU FALL?
A. YOU WOULD BE IN THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND
DECISION SCIENCES IN---
Q. OKAY. SO IT---
A. ---PROBABLY THROUGH THE GRADUATE SCHOOL OF ARTS
AND SCIENCES.
Q. AND IT'S, IN EFFECT, A STAND-ALONE ENTITY?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 7
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE INSTITUTE OF
STATISTICS? WHAT IS THAT PERSON CALLED?
A. MIKE WEST IS CALLED A "HEAD," NOT A "CHAIR."
Q. OKAY. THE HEAD OF THE INSTITUTE.
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU MENTIONED A CENTER A MOMENT
AGO---
A. UH-HUH.
Q. ---WHERE DOES A CENTER FIT INTO ALL OF THIS?
A. WELL, CENTERS ARE FORMALLY -- CENTERS THAT HAVE
BEEN FORMALLY IDENTIFIED AS CENTERS BY DUKE
UNIVERSITY, AS FAR AS I KNOW, CAN EXIST IN ANY
OF THESE ENTITIES -- SCHOOLS, DEPARTMENTS,
INSTITUTES -- AND OFTEN ARE SET UP TO BRING IN
FACULTY ACROSS, OR FROM OTHER DEPARTMENTS THAN THE
HOST DEPARTMENT.
Q. NOW, YOU MENTIONED THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. WHEN WAS THAT CREATED?
A. OH, GEE, THREE YEARS AGO.
Q. OKAY. AND, IF I WERE DRAWING A LITTLE DOTTED
LINE, HOW WOULD THAT RELATE TO THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 8
A. THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT HAS SEVERAL CENTERS,
AND THE WETLAND CENTER IS ONE CENTER WITHIN THE
SCHOOL.
Q. NOW, ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY
DO?
A. ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR,
I'M INVOLVED IN TEACHING; ADVISING STUDENTS;
ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIVITIES SUCH AS SERVING ON
COMMITTEES; ADMISSIONS AND AWARDS COMMITTEE;
MEETING WITH STUDENTS.
Q. OKAY. IN A TYPICAL ACADEMIC YEAR, WHAT WOULD YOUR
TEACHING LOAD BE?
A. A COURSE A SEMESTER, PLUS A SEMINAR.
Q. IS THAT WHAT YOU'D CALL A NORMAL TEACHING LOAD AT
DUKE?
A. THAT'S A NORMAL TEACHING LOAD IN THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT. I BELIEVE IT'S NORMAL AND TYPICAL OF
MOST DEPARTMENTS.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT ARE YOU TEACHING THIS SEMESTER?
A. DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS.
Q. TELL ME WHAT THAT IS.
A. THAT INVOLVES STATISTICAL METHODS, TO SOME DEGREE,
AND THE SCIENCE OF DECISION THEORY, HOW WE MAKE
DECISIONS UNDER UNCERTAINTY.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 9
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE RELATED TO THE INSTITUTE OF
STATISTICS?
A. IT COULD BE, BUT IT IS NOT.
Q. OKAY. IT'S JUST A -- IS IT AN UNDERGRADUATE
COURSE?
A. NO, IT'S A GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL COURSE WITHIN
THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT SEMINAR ARE YOU TEACHING THIS
SEMESTER?
A. I'M NOT. MY SEMINAR WAS GIVEN IN THE FALL.
Q. OKAY. GIVE ME AN IDEA, GOING BACK OVER THE LAST
FEW YEARS, OF SOME OF THE COURSES THAT YOU'VE
TAUGHT.
A. THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, I'VE TAUGHT DECISION
THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS IN THE SPRING, WATER
QUALITY MANAGEMENT AS A COURSE IN THE FALL, AND
WATER QUALITY MODELING AS A SEMINAR IN THE FALL.
Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S BEEN FOR HOW MANY YEARS, WOULD
YOU SAY?
A. OH, FIVE, SIX YEARS.
Q. THE WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, WOULD THAT BE A
GRADUATE-LEVEL COURSE?
A. YEAH. THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT, UP UNTIL
THIS FALL, HAS ONLY BEEN FOR GRADUATE AND
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 10
PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS. NOW, PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS
ARE NOT UNLIKE MBA STUDENTS IN THAT THEY ARE
POST-UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE PURSUING A PROFESSIONAL
DEGREE THAT TRAINS THEM TO PRACTICE THE PROFESSION
OF ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES.
Q. AND I ASSUME THE MODELING COURSE WOULD ALSO BE FOR
GRADUATE OR PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS?
A. YES.
Q. DO YOU -- IN YOUR DECISION THEORY AND RISK
ANALYSIS COURSE, DO YOU HAVE A STANDARD TEXTBOOK
THAT YOU USE?
A. YES. THE LAST TWO YEARS, I HAVE USED A COURSE --
A TEXT BY VON WINTERFELDT AND EDWARDS ENTITLED
DECISION ANALYSIS AND BEHAVIORAL RESEARCH.
Q. VON WINTERFELDT?
A. VON WINTERFELDT, YES.
Q. AND ELLIS?
A. NO. VON WINTERFELDT AND EDWARDS.
Q. EDWARDS, I'M SORRY. OKAY. AND WHAT TEXT DO YOU
USE IN THE WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT COURSE?
A. THE LAST TWO YEARS, I HAVE NOT USED A TEXT.
Q. OKAY. WHAT HAVE YOU USED FOR COURSE MATERIALS?
A. IN ALL MY COURSES, I HAVE ALL MY LECTURE NOTES
PHOTOCOPIED AND HAND THOSE -- OR ACTUALLY HAVE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 11
THOSE SOLD BY AN ORGANIZATION THAT PROVIDES COURSE
PACKS FOR UNIVERSITIES.
Q. WHAT'S THE NAME OF THAT COURSE -- OF THAT
ORGANIZATION?
A. I MAY -- I HAVE TO SAY I CAN'T RECALL. THEY'RE
LOCATED IN RALEIGH. THEY USED TO GO UNDER THE
NAME "UNLIMITED POTENTIAL." NOW, THEY MAY STILL
USE THAT NAME. NAME COULD BE OBTAINED THROUGH THE
BOOKSTORE.
Q. CAN STUDENTS BUY THIS COURSE MATERIAL THROUGH THE
BOOKSTORE AT DUKE?
A. YES, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. I HAVE THE COPIER COPY
AND BIND THE NOTES, AND THEN THEY ARE SOLD TO THE
BOOKSTORE.
Q. AND YOU'VE BEEN USING THESE FOR THE LAST TWO
YEARS, YOU SAY?
A. WELL, IN WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, I HAVE NOT USED
A TEXT FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS. IN ALL OF MY
COURSES, I'VE USED THE COURSE PACKS FOR, OH, THE
LAST FOUR OR FIVE, SIX YEARS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE -- MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO
WHAT TEXT DID YOU USE IN WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT?
A. A TEXT BY TCHOBANOGLOUS AND SCHROEDER ENTITLED,
WATER QUALITY.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 12
Q. CAN YOU SPELL THE FIRST ONE FOR THE---
A. YEAH. T-C-H-O-B-A-N-O-G-L-O-U-S.
Q. SAY THAT AGAIN, T-C -- I RAN---
A. T-C-H-O-B-A-N-O-G-L-O-U-S, I THINK.
Q. AND SCHROEDER?
A. SCHROEDER, S-C-H-R-O-E-D-E-R.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR MODELING SEMINAR, DO YOU --
YOU USE YOUR COURSE MATERIALS, I ASSUME.
A. I HAVE A TEXT AND I'VE USED THE COURSE LECTURE---
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE TEXT?
A. THE TEXT IS ENGINEERING APPROACHES FOR LAKE
MANAGEMENT, VOLUME 2.
Q. BY WHOM?
A. RECKHOW -- OR CHAPRA AND RECKHOW.
Q. OKAY. I ASSUME THAT'S YOU.
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE DECISION
THEORY COURSE FOR A LITTLE BIT.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. IF YOU WERE GOING TO DESCRIBE THIS COURSE TO
SOMEBODY WHO WAS INTERESTED IN TAKING IT, HOW
WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT?
A. A PROSPECTIVE STUDENT -- SOMEONE WHO HAS SOME
ACADEMIC TRAINING---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 13
Q. RIGHT. WHO---
A. ---I WOULD DESCRIBE IT AS A COURSE THAT MAKES USE
OF BASIC PROBABILITY AND STATISTICS AND PROVIDES A
FOUNDATION IN DECISION THEORY, THE THEORY OF
DECISION MAKING UNDER UNCERTAINTY, BUT, IN
ADDITION, PROVIDES A NUMBER OF APPLICATIONS OF
DECISION THEORY, CALLED DECISION ANALYSIS, AS
TO HOW WE TAKE UNCERTAIN SCIENCE AND VALUE
JUDGMENTS TO HELP GUIDE DECISION MAKING UNDER
UNCERTAINTY.
Q. NOW, ARE YOU TAKING ACTUAL DATA AND LOOKING AT IT
FOR ITS CREDIBILITY?
A. IN THE COURSE?
Q. YEAH.
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. I THINK OF -- IN MY MIND, I THINK OF TWO --
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT DECISION MAKING,
THERE'S THIS BODY OF WORK WHERE YOU -- SOMETHING
CALLED DECISION TREES AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.
A. YES, THAT'S PART OF IT. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. DO YOU -- IS THAT PART OF YOURS, AS WELL?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. NOW, I DON'T THINK OF THAT AS BEING PARTICULARLY
MATHEMATICAL.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 14
A. NO, NO.
Q. SO, PART OF YOUR COURSE WORK IS -- PART OF YOUR
WORK IS -- WOULD BE IN DEALING WITH SUBJECTIVE
EVALUATION.
A. JUDGMENTAL PROBABILITIES AND PREFERENCES, WHICH
ARE VERY LIKELY TO REFLECT JUDGMENTS.
Q. OKAY. DOES PART OF IT ALSO DEAL WITH MATHEMATICAL
APPROACHES TO THIS SAME SUBJECT MATTER?
A. PART OF THE CLASSES I TEACH?
Q. YES. RIGHT.
A. TO A LIMITED DEGREE, YES.
Q. IN TERMS OF FIVE PERCENT SIGNIFICANT PROBABILITY
AND THINGS LIKE THAT? DOES THAT -- YOU GET INTO
THAT AREA IN THIS COURSE?
A. NO. THAT WOULD -- THAT'S -- ALTHOUGH, WE HAVE IN
THE PAST -- HYPOTHESIS TESTING, YOU'RE REFERRING
TO?
Q. RIGHT.
A. AND I HAVEN'T IN THE LAST TWO YEARS. IT IS
CONSIDERED ONE OF THE QUANTITATIVE COURSES IN THE
SCHOOL THAT PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS CHOOSE FROM.
Q. NOW, WHAT IS CONSIDERED A QUANTITATIVE, YOUR
COURSE?
A. THE DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS COURSE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 15
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN, IT'S CONSIDERED A
QUANTITATIVE COURSE?
A. WELL, THERE ARE CERTAIN COURSES THAT ARE
IDENTIFIED IN A SET OF COURSE OPTIONS THAT ARE
MORE QUANTITATIVE IN NATURE, AND IT IS ONE OF
THOSE. IT IS NOT HEAVILY MATHEMATICAL, THOUGH I
DO ASSIGN PROBLEM SETS. SO, THERE ARE
CALCULATIONS MADE IN THE COURSE OF THE COURSE.
Q. OKAY. HAS ANY OF THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE IN
THIS CASE BEEN A TYPE MATERIAL THAT YOU WOULD HAVE
COVERED IN THIS CLASS?
A. BY "IN THIS CASE," YOU MEAN?
Q. THE EVERGLADES LITIGATION.
A. I'M TRYING TO THINK. NOT THIS YEAR. LAST YEAR, I
TALKED ABOUT DECISION MAKING IN THE EVERGLADES
JUST IN A VERY GENERAL SENSE. JUST---
Q. OKAY. MAYBE MY QUESTION WASN'T CLEAR. WE'LL GET
INTO THIS LATER IN TERMS OF WHAT YOUR ASSIGNMENT
HAS BEEN IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. WHEN I SAY
"THIS CASE," DO YOU UNDERSTAND I MEAN THE SWIM
CHALLENGE AND THE ENTIRE RESTORATION ISSUES
RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING IN TERMS OF, YES.
UH-HUH (YES).
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 16
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT I'M INTERESTED TO
KNOW IS, HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK IN THIS CASE THAT
YOU COULD POINT TO SOMETHING IN YOUR COURSE
THAT---
A. OH, I SEE. I LOOKED THE OTHER WAY, YEAH.
Q. ---YOU DRAW UPON -- THE PRINCIPLES. YOU LOOKED
THE OTHER WAY, EXACTLY.
A. YEAH. CERTAIN -- NOT FOR THE PROJECT THAT
INVOLVES THIS GROUP. NOW, YOU -- SO, NO, NOT FOR
THAT -- THIS PROJECT THAT SONG AND I ARE WORKING
ON.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAVEN'T USED A DECISION TREE
ANALYSIS, FOR INSTANCE, ON ANY EVERGLADES RELATED
SUBJECT?
A. WELL, YOU'RE BROADENING IT BECAUSE---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---WITH REGARDS TO THE WORK THAT I'M DOING FOR THE
SUGAR CANE COOPERATIVE, THE ANSWER IS NO.
Q. WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE THE ANSWER YES? YOU'RE
ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT SOMETHING.
A. WELL, YOU ARE PROBABLY AWARE THAT I AM ALSO
WORKING FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT.
Q. RIGHT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 17
A. OKAY. AND IN THE CONTEXT OF EXPERIENCES WITH THE
DISTRICT, PRIOR TO BEING INVOLVED IN THIS
PARTICULAR WORK, TO ANY DEGREE, I'VE THOUGHT OF
THE EVERGLADES ISSUE IN A DECISION ANALYTIC
CONTEXT AND DID LAY OUT A FRAMEWORK FOR THINKING
ABOUT THE EVERGLADES PROBLEM IN THE DECISION
ANALYSIS CLASS.
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE REFLECTED IN YOUR NOTES THAT
THE STUDENTS CAN BUY?
A. NO, IT WASN'T. I GAVE A HANDOUT. IT WASN'T THIS
YEAR, BECAUSE I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT IT THIS YEAR AT
ALL. IT WAS LAST YEAR ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH THE
SEMESTER. WHAT I OFTEN DO IS REALIZE THAT THE
STUDENTS ARE IN NEED OF REINFORCEMENT IN A
PARTICULAR AREA, AND I'LL CHANGE THE LECTURE, AND
I DID THAT LAST YEAR. AND, SO, I ADDED A HANDOUT
AND USED THAT EXAMPLE OF DECISION MAKING IN THE
EVERGLADES AS A CASE STUDY.
Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A PARAGRAPH ABOUT WHAT THE HANDOUT
REFLECTED?
A. YEAH. IT WAS VERY GENERAL. IT SIMPLY IDENTIFIED
THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM, THAT THERE WAS WATER
AND NUTRIENT COMING FROM THE NORTH AND FLOWING
INTO THE EVERGLADES. AND THERE WAS CONCERN WITH
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 18
REGARDS TO WHAT THE PHOSPHORUS LEVEL SHOULD BE IN
THE WATER FLOWING INTO THE EVERGLADES. AND I
DEVELOPED WHAT'S CALLED AN OBJECTIVES HIERARCHY
FOR THAT ANALYSIS, WHICH IDENTIFIES -- IT'S A
GRAPHICAL DEVICE THAT LOOKS LIKE A FLOWCHART, IN A
SENSE, TOP TO BOTTOM, AND HELPS A DECISION ANALYST
IDENTIFY SPECIFIC OBJECTIVES IN A PROBLEM. BEYOND
THAT, I CAN'T TELL YOU, BECAUSE I JUST DON'T
REMEMBER THE DETAILS. THE PURPOSE OF THE
EXERCISE, THOUGH, WAS TO CONVINCE STUDENTS THAT
THE MATERIAL THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE
CLASS, WHICH APPEARED TO BE SOMEWHAT ABSTRACT FROM
REAL WORLD PROBLEMS, MIGHT HELP US THINK ABOUT
REAL WORLD PROBLEMS; SO, I JUST BEGAN THE THINKING
ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR PROBLEM. THE SPECIFICS THAT
WE DISCUSSED, I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT YOUR DECISION THEORY, OF
COURSE.
A. YEAH, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT HANDOUT STILL AVAILABLE?
A. I WOULD THINK -- PROBABLY SOMEWHERE IN MY NOTES,
YEAH.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR WATER
QUALITY MANAGEMENT COURSE, WHAT DO YOU COVER,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 19
GENERALLY, IN THAT COURSE?
A. THAT'S A BROAD COURSE INTENDED FOR BEGINNING
STUDENTS IN THE PROGRAM. AND IT COVERS AN
INTRODUCTION TO SCIENCE OF CONCERN TO SURFACE
WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, SOME BASIC BIOLOGY AND
CHEMISTRY CONCEPTS. IT MOVES TO A DISCUSSION AS
TO HOW LAND USE AFFECTS WATER QUALITY, POLLUTANTS
THAT MIGHT BE THOUGHT TO RUN OFF VARIOUS LAND USE
TYPES AND CATEGORIES. IT THEN MOVES TO AN
OVERVIEW OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS RELEVANT TO
SURFACE WATER QUALITY, AND THEN GOES INTO A FINAL,
FAIRLY LENGTHY SET OF TOPICS DEALING WITH WATER
QUALITY SIMULATION MODELING. THIS IS ALL AT A
VERY BASIC LEVEL.
Q. OKAY. IS THERE ANYTHING, SPECIFICALLY, IN YOUR
COURSE THAT YOU'VE DRAWN ON IN YOUR WORK IN THIS
CASE -- IN THAT PARTICULAR COURSE?
A. OH, IN THIS? WITH REGARDS AGAIN TO THE SUGAR CANE
COOPERATIVE AND THIS EXERCISE WITH SONG, NO; AND
WITH REGARDS TO THE EVERGLADES, NO.
Q. OKAY. NOW, YOUR LAST COURSE WAS ACTUALLY A
SEMINAR, MODELING. TELL ME WHAT YOU COVER IN THAT
COURSE OR THAT SEMINAR.
A. IN THAT COURSE, WE -- I START OUT BY GIVING A
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 20
SERIES OF LECTURES DEALING WITH WHAT'S CALLED
MECHANISTIC MODELING; MODELS THAT ARE BASED ON
SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING RELATING POLLUTANT INPUT
TO WATER QUALITY, PARTICULARLY, IN LAKES, BUT ALSO
IN RIVERS. AND, IN ADDITION, I TALK ABOUT
STATISTICAL ISSUES, NOTABLY, TREND ANALYSIS. AND
THEN, THAT FOLLOWS -- THAT'S FOLLOWED BY STUDENT
PRESENTATION -- STUDENT SEMINARS ON TOPICS THAT
THEY CHOOSE TO WORK ON.
Q. IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE YEARS, HAVE ANY STUDENTS
WORKED SPECIFICALLY ON TOPICS RELATING TO THE
EVERGLADES SITUATION?
A. YES. CONRAD LAMON, A Ph.D. STUDENT OF MINE, WHO
WORKED DURING THE SUMMER FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, USED A MODELING TOOL
CALLED "STELLA" TO LOOK AT -- I BELIEVE LOOK AT
PHOSPHORUS AND WATER MOVEMENT IN WCA-2A.
Q. "STELLA" -- IS THAT AN ACRONYM?
A. I CAN'T RECALL.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THIS PARTICULAR
EXERCISE?
A. IT WAS MAINLY TO GAIN EXPERIENCE IN A MODELING
APPROACH THAT GAVE HIM FAMILIARITY WITH THE
TECHNIQUE ON THE MACINTOSH, STELLA, AND EXPERIENCE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 21
IN WRITTEN AND ORAL PRESENTATION.
Q. OKAY. DID THAT ULTIMATELY COME TO ANY FORMAL
PRESENTATION IN WRITING OR---
A. HE WROTE A FINAL REPORT FOR THE CLASS, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. AND, SO, YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT, FOR
INSTANCE?
A. NO. NO.
Q. OKAY. WAS THERE ANYTHING IN HIS WORK THAT
YOU HAVE USED OR RELIED ON OR IN ANY WAY
CONSIDERED?
A. NO. NO.
Q. WHY IS THAT?
A. IT'S JUST, I GUESS, A COUPLE OF REASONS. I WASN'T
THINKING, AT THE TIME, OF GOING THROUGH IT FOR THE
PURPOSE OF GLEANING THINGS OUT FOR THIS WORK. AND
MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT DIDN'T LEAD TO ANYTHING
THAT WOULD BE OF VALUE IN THOSE TERMS. IT WAS A
GOOD EDUCATIONAL EXERCISE FOR HIM.
Q. UH-HUH (YES). WHAT WAS HIS HYPOTHESIS OR WHAT WAS
HE TRYING TO FIND OUT?
A. I CAN'T RECALL, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE WE SET IT UP
IN TERMS OF AN HYPOTHESIS. I LOOKED AT IT FOR
HIM AS AN EXPERIENCE IN WORKING WITH A MODELING
TOOL.
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DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 22
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU USE
THE TERM "MODEL"?
A. I TEND TO USE IT AS HAVING AN IMPLIED MATHEMATICAL
IN FRONT OF IT. AND I TEND TO REFER TO A MODEL
THAT SIMULATES OR DESCRIBES, AS OPPOSED TO ONE
THAT OPTIMIZES. AND, THEREFORE, AS A RULE, WHEN I
USE THE WORD "MODEL," I'M REFERRING TO AN EQUATION
OR SET OF EQUATIONS THAT ARE USED TO DESCRIBE
SOMETHING, SUCH AS THE -- THE POLLUTANT
TRANSPORTING FEE.
Q. NOW, YOU SAID THAT THE -- YOU LOOKED AT MODELS
THAT SIMULATE RATHER THAN OPTIMIZE.
A. YES.
Q. WHAT -- DESCRIBE FOR ME A MODEL THAT WOULD
OPTIMIZE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A. BY THAT, I MEAN A MODEL THAT MIGHT BE USED TO
MINIMIZE THE COST OF WASTEWATER TREATMENT SUBJECT
TO A CONSTRAINT, SUCH AS ALLOWABLE DISCHARGE.
Q. OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF EACH THAT
WOULD DEMONSTRATE THE DIFFERENCE?
A. YES. A SIMULATION MODEL IS ONE THAT MIGHT HAVE AS
INPUT TO THE MODEL POLLUTANT LOADING AND MIGHT
PREDICT POLLUTANT CONCENTRATION IN A WATER BODY
OF INTEREST. AND, THEREFORE, IT MIGHT BE USED TO
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 23
EVALUATE SCENARIOS LEADING TO VARIOUS POLLUTANT
LOADS.
Q. SO, THAT YOU WOULD ASSUME A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
WHATEVER POLLUTANT YOU'RE DEALING WITH WAS
INTRODUCED INTO A BODY OF WATER?
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. WOULD THAT BE IN TERMS OF A LOAD OR IN TERMS OF
CONCENTRATION?
A. IT COULD BE EITHER.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN, YOUR MODEL WOULD BE A SERIES OF
EQUATIONS THAT WOULD---
A. OR A SINGLE EQUATION.
Q. ---OR A SINGLE EQUATION, THAT WOULD TELL YOU WHAT
YOU CAN EXPECT, WHERE, AT THE END -- AT THE OTHER
END OF THE BODY OF WATER GOING OUT OR---
A. IT DEPENDS ON THE MODEL. IT COULD BE WITHIN THE
WATER BODY AT THE OUTLET. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE
MODEL.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT -- HOW, THEN, WOULD YOU USE THIS
MODEL? OR, AT THIS POINT, YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED
IN USING IT; YOU'RE JUST INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT
WHAT HAPPENS. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?
A. WELL, IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE SITUATION. IF I WAS
TO USE THE MODEL, I MIGHT USE IT TO EVALUATE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 24
VARIOUS SCENARIOS OF POLLUTANT INPUT THAT MIGHT BE
ASSOCIATED WITH VARIOUS MANAGEMENT PLANS.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU'D PLAY AROUND WITH THE LOAD GOING
IN PERHAPS OR---
A. YES.
Q. ---SOME OF THE CONDITIONS THAT EXIST IN THE BODY
OF WATER---
A. YES.
Q. ---TO FIND OUT HOW THOSE THINGS MIGHT AFFECT THE
RESULT?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. NOW, GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A MODEL THAT
WOULD OPTIMIZE.
A. A MODEL THAT WOULD OPTIMIZE OFTEN INVOLVES, AS I
MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO, MAXIMIZING OR MINIMIZING
THIS -- THE EXAMPLE I GAVE A MOMENT AGO CONCERNED
USING IT TO MINIMIZE COSTS; IDENTIFY, PERHAPS --
IF WE WERE USING IT FOR, LET'S SAY, DESIGN OF A
WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT, DETERMINING WHAT
DESIGN FACTORS -- WATER LOAD, POLLUTANT LOAD;
OTHER DESIGN FACTORS THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE -- TO
IDENTIFY THE DESIGN FACTORS THAT WOULD LEAD TO A
MINIMUM COST MANAGEMENT SOLUTION, OFTEN SUBJECT TO
CONSTRAINTS; AND CONSTRAINTS COULD BE ALLOWABLE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 25
DISCHARGE CONCENTRATIONS OF CONTAMINANTS OF
CONCERN.
Q. SO, YOU'D PLUG THAT IN, IN EFFECT, AS A GIVEN OR
AS A REQUIREMENT---
A. YES.
Q. ---FOR THE END?
A. YOU HAVE TO MEET THESE CONCENTRATIONS OF
BIOCHEMICAL OXYGEN DEMAND, FOR EXAMPLE.
Q. AND THEN -- SO, THEN, YOU WOULD -- YOU WOULD PUT
IN WHAT'S COMING IN AT THE OTHER -- AT THE
BEGINNING AND DEAL WITH WAYS TO MEET THE
CONCLUSION THAT YOU WANT TO REACH?
A. WITH THE OBJECTIVE OF -- IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE
THAT I SET OUT -- MINIMIZE -- IDENTIFYING A DESIGN
THAT MINIMIZES COST.
Q. HOW LONG HAVE PEOPLE BEEN USING THIS MODELING
APPROACH IN THE WATER QUALITY AREA?
A. I CAN ONLY GUESS ON THAT. SIMULATION MODELING FOR
SURFACE WATER QUALITY GOES BACK TO THE MID-20'S,
LOOKING AT DISSOLVED OXYGEN IN STREAMS.
OPTIMIZATION MODELS MAY GO BACK JUST TO THE EARLY
'60'S, BUT I'M NOT SURE.
Q. PROBABLY BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE GOT INTERESTED
IN DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, I GUESS.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 26
A. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE. IS THIS APPROACH TO
MODELING USED IN OTHER AREAS, AS WELL?
A. THE SIMULATION MODELING, YES.
Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES?
A. I'M MUCH LESS FAMILIAR---
Q. SURE.
A. ---WITH OTHER AREAS, AND I'M MORE FAMILIAR WITH
SIMULATION THAN WITH OPTIMIZATION. SIMULATION
MODELING IS USED, FOR EXAMPLE, TO DESCRIBE THE
EFFECTIVE AIR QUALITY POLLUTANT CONTROLS ON
STACKS -- ON EMITTERS, ON AMBIENT AIR
CONCENTRATIONS AT SOME POINT OF INTEREST.
Q. CAN YOU THINK OF ONE TOTALLY OUTSIDE THE POLLUTION
AREA?
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO THE QUESTION
ON THE GROUNDS OF RELEVANCE. YOU CAN
ANSWER.
MR. REID: THOSE OBJECTIONS ARE
PRESERVED. GO AHEAD.
A. WHAT---
MS. STINSON: YOU MAY ANSWER.
WITNESS: I MAY ANSWER? OKAY.
MS. STINSON: IF YOU CAN.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 27
MR. REID: OBVIOUSLY, I DON'T WANT
HIM TO ANSWER IF -- I'LL JUST SAY THIS FOR
THE REST OF THE DEPOSITION -- IF YOU DON'T
KNOW, DON'T ANSWER.
WITNESS: I---
MS. STINSON: YOU'RE NOT REQUIRED TO
SPECULATE---
A. OKAY. WELL, I GUESS I---
MS. STINSON: ---IF YOU DON'T KNOW.
WITNESS: OKAY.
A. ---I'M SURE THEY ARE USED. I JUST -- I HAVE NO
EXPERIENCE.
Q. YOU CAN'T NAME---
A. NO, I CAN'T IDENTIFY SPECIFICALLY.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE ALTERNATIVE TO SOMEONE IN
YOUR POSITION TO USING THE MODELING TECHNIQUES?
A. FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
Q. FOR -- ASSUMING YOU WANT TO REACH THE SAME
CONCLUSION; FOR THE SAME REASON YOU'RE DOING
MODELING. ARE THERE OTHER ALTERNATIVE MEANS OF
REACHING THE SAME RESULT?
A. CERTAINLY.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE?
A. EXPERT JUDGMENT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 28
Q. OKAY. YOU COULD ALSO GO OUT AND JUST TAKE
SAMPLES, COULDN'T YOU?
A. WELL, THE SCENARIO THAT IT STRIKES ME A SIMULATION
MODEL IS USEFUL FOR IS PREDICTIVE AND SAMPLES
REFLECT CURRENT SITUATION OF THE PAST.
Q. ARE THERE OTHER TECHNIQUES FOR PREDICTING THE
FUTURE BESIDES MODELING?
A. EXPERT JUDGMENT, AGAIN.
Q. ASIDE FROM THAT?
A. I THINK, GIVEN THE WAY WE HAVE DEFINED MODELING AS
SIMULATION MODELING AND GIVEN THE BREADTH OF
COVERAGE OF EXPERT JUDGMENT, IT'S HARD --
IMMEDIATELY, I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING THAT WOULD
CLEARLY NOT FIT UNDER ONE CATEGORY OR THE OTHER.
Q. WHERE WOULD THINGS SUCH AS TREND ANALYSES FALL?
A. TREND ANALYSIS IS A MODELING TECHNIQUE. IT'S A
STATISTICAL TECHNIQUE. IT, GENERALLY, IS THOUGHT
OF AS RETROSPECTIVE. YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE PAST.
Q. AS A WAY TO PREDICT THE FUTURE?
A. NOT NECESSARILY.
Q. OKAY. SO HOW ABOUT A REGRESSION ANALYSIS? WOULD
THAT BE THE SAME THING?
A. NO. IT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT YOU WERE REGRESSING.
Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD YOU -- WOULD THAT -- COULD THAT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 29
BE USED AS A PREDICTIVE---
A. CERTAINLY.
Q. ---APPROACH? HOW WOULD YOU USE IT AS A PREDICTIVE
APPROACH?
A. IN MANY WAYS.
Q. IN THE WATER QUALITY CONTEXT THAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE.
A. BUT EVEN WITHIN THE WATER QUALITY CONTEXT, IN MANY
WAYS.
Q. WELL, LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR MODEL -- THE EXAMPLE
YOU GAVE ME FOR YOUR MODEL.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. IN THAT SPECIFIC SITUATION, WOULD YOU USE -- COULD
YOU USE REGRESSION ANALYSIS?
A. CERTAINLY. YOU COULD -- IF YOU HAD DATA, LET'S
SAY, ON POLLUTANT INPUT ON RESPONSE OF CONCERN AND
ON FACTORS THAT RELATE TO HOW THE POLLUTANT INPUT
IS CONVERTED INTO THE RESPONSIVE CONCERN, SAY, THE
CONCENTRATION, YOU COULD USE THOSE DATA AND
REGRESSION ANALYSIS TO FIT A MODEL TO ALLOW YOU TO
PREDICT THAT RESPONSIVE CONCERN -- THE
CONCENTRATION AS A FUNCTION OF THE INPUT AND THE
OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE IMPORTANT. AND THAT MODEL
COULD WELL BE USED IN A PREDICTIVE SENSE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 30
Q. I GUESS I'M HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING.
WHEN YOU MAKE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN JUDGMENT OR
EVALUATING THE PRESENT AND THE PAST---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---AS OPPOSED TO WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT A
MINUTE AGO IN THE MODELING, AREN'T YOU, IN EFFECT,
USING PRESENT AND PAST DATA TO---
A. THE DIFFERENCE -- YOU REFERRED---
Q. ---CREATE YOUR MODEL?
A. ---TO TREND ANALYSIS. TREND ANALYSIS IS SIMPLY
LOOKING AT A -- IF WE CONFINE IT TO ONE VARIABLE
OR SEVERAL ONE-VARIABLE ANALYSES, IT'S SIMPLY
LOOKING AT HOW LEVELS OF THAT VARIABLE HAVE
TRACKED OVER TIME. IT HAS NOTHING THAT IS
CORRELATIVE WITH REGARDS TO RELATING IT TO ANOTHER
VARIABLE.
Q. MEANING THE NEXT ONE, THE FUTURE?
A. NO, MEANING THE LOADING. IN OTHER WORDS, WE COULD
DO A TREND OF LOADING OVER TIME. WE COULD DO A
TREND OF IN-LAKE CONCENTRATION OVER TIME. WHAT
THE REGRESSION IS DOING IS LINKING THOSE TWO.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR -- STRIKE THAT.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 31
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
WITNESS: I WONDER IN ABOUT TEN OR
FIFTEEN MINUTES IF WE CAN TAKE A BREAK---
MR. REID: OKAY. SURE.
WITNESS: ---SO I CAN HAVE A SANDWICH?
MR. REID: OKAY.
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES:
Q. I'VE LOOKED AT YOUR RESUME, AND I WANTED TO ASK
YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT SOME THINGS THERE. YOUR
UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE FROM CORNELL IS LISTED AS
ENGINEERING PHYSICS. WHAT SPECIFIC AREAS DID YOU
FOCUS ON?
A. I DIDN'T FOCUS, ACTUALLY, OTHER THAN --
ENGINEERING DEGREES ARE HIGHLY STRUCTURED AND YOU
HAVE RELATIVELY FEW OPTIONS. AND I TOOK THE
STANDARD CURRICULUM IN ENGINEERING PHYSICS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO DO WITH THAT DEGREE
OR -- GO TO SCHOOL SOME MORE, OBVIOUSLY.
A. YEAH.
Q. NO, BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WERE YOU
GOING TO BUILD BUILDINGS?
A. YEAH. I DIDN'T -- I HONESTLY DIDN'T---
Q. WERE YOU GOING TO CONSTRUCT WETLANDS OR---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 32
A. ---KNOW. I WAS NOT, AT THAT TIME, TERRIBLY
THOUGHTFUL ABOUT WHERE I WAS HEADED WITH MY
PROGRAM. IT LOOKED INTERESTING, AND I WENT INTO
IT.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE ANY WORK IN YOUR UNDERGRADUATE
DEGREES THAT DEALT WITH WATER QUALITY
CONSIDERATIONS?
A. NO.
Q. ANYTHING AT ALL THAT RELATES TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING
NOW, DIRECTLY?
A. NOT DIRECTLY.
Q. OKAY. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, IT, I UNDERSTAND,
GENERALLY---
A. YEAH. IT ALL RELATES, YEAH.
Q. ---IT ALL RELATES AT SOME LEVEL, BUT---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIFICALLY.
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT LED YOU TO HARVARD INTO
ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE?
A. IN MY SENIOR YEAR AT CORNELL, FALL SEMESTER, I
REALIZED THAT ENGINEERING PHYSICS WAS NOT FOR ME
AS A CAREER. AND I WENT OVER TO THE CIVIL
ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT AND MET SOME FACULTY AND
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 33
INQUIRED ABOUT BECOMING INVOLVED WITH PROJECTS IN
THE ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES. AND WHAT STIMULATED
ME TO LOOK INTO ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES, I DON'T
RECALL. BUT I SUSPECT IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH
EARTH DAY. AND I MET A PROFESSOR, CHARLES
REVELLE, WHO WAS WORKING ON SOLID WASTE RECYCLE,
SPECIFICALLY, JUNK CARS. AND IT WAS FORTUITOUS.
HE WAS LOOKING FOR SOME HELP ON A PROJECT. AND HE
INVOLVED ME ON A PROJECT. I BECAME INTERESTED IN
IT, AND WE DEVELOPED A GOOD WORKING AND PERSONAL
RAPPORT. I DECIDED ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES WAS A
CAREER THAT I WANTED TO PURSUE OR, AT LEAST,
EXPLORE MORE. AND HE GUIDED ME IN THE DIRECTION
OF GRADUATE PROGRAMS. AND SO I APPLIED TO SEVERAL
AND CHOSE HARVARD.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR WORK FOR YOUR MASTER'S, DID
YOU DEAL WITH ANY AREAS THAT YOU NOW DEAL WITH IN
WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND WHAT YOU'RE HERE ABOUT?
A. WHEN I STARTED AT HARVARD, I INTENDED TO GO INTO
SOLID WASTE RECYCLE BECAUSE OF THAT -- BECAUSE
THAT'S WHAT I HAD BEEN EXPOSED TO. AND THE MASTER
OF SCIENCE, OR S.M. DEGREE, AT HARVARD IS HANDED
TO YOU AFTER A YEAR OF COURSE WORK; NO THESIS
REQUIREMENT. IT'S JUST -- I WAS IN A Ph.D.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 34
PROGRAM. AND THAT WAS LITERALLY IN THE MAIL AFTER
A YEAR. SO, ALL I HAD DONE WAS TAKE ONE YEAR OF
COURSES. AND I DON'T RECALL AFTER ONE YEAR THAT I
HAD ANY PARTICULAR CHANGE IN CAREER DIRECTION AT
THAT TIME.
Q. OKAY. AND, AS YOU CONTINUED, AT SOME POINT YOU
DID, I ASSUME.
A. YES, I DID. I---
Q. AND WHERE -- WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?
A. SOMETIME -- IT COULD HAVE OCCURRED IN THE SECOND
SEMESTER OF THAT FIRST YEAR. IT COULD HAVE
OCCURRED IN THE FIRST SEMESTER OF THE SECOND YEAR,
JUST AFTER THE S.M. DEGREE. I BECAME INTERESTED
IN WATER QUALITY; HAD TAKEN SOME COURSES DEALING
WITH CHEMISTRY AND BIOLOGY. AND THEN IN THE
SUMMER BETWEEN MY SECOND AND THIRD YEARS AT
HARVARD, I HAD A SUMMER JOB SUPPORTED THROUGH THE
APPALACHIAN MOUNTAIN CLUB ON LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE,
NEW HAMPSHIRE, DOING SOME WATER QUALITY SAMPLES.
AND THAT WAS QUITE INTERESTING TO ME AND REALLY
LED TO THE EMPHASIS IN WATER QUALITY.
Q. WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR IN LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE?
A. JUST BACKGROUND DATA COLLECTION THAT WOULD AID THE
REGIONAL PLANNING AGENCY, LAKES REGION PLANNING
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 35
COMMISSION, IN UNDERSTANDING SOMETHING ABOUT HOW
THE DEVELOPMENT OCCURRING IN THE LAKE'S REGION WAS
AFFECTING WATER QUALITY.
Q. AND YOU WERE BASICALLY SAMPLING? WAS THAT THE
EXTENT OF THE WORK?
A. YEAH. I WAS SAMPLING. I WAS ALSO HELPING TO
WRITE SOME NON-TECHNICAL MATERIAL ON WATER QUALITY
CONCEPTS FOR THE LAYPERSON THAT THE PLANNING
COMMISSION COULD DISTRIBUTE TO HELP EXPLAIN WHY
THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT WATER QUALITY.
Q. AND SO, WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO HARVARD DID YOU
BEGIN TO TAKE COURSES IN THE -- RELATING TO WATER
QUALITY?
A. WELL, BY THAT TIME -- THE THIRD YEAR IS REALLY THE
POINT AT WHICH YOU SWITCH FROM EMPHASIS OF COURSE
WORK TO EMPHASIS ON RESEARCH. AND SO, WHEN I CAME
BACK TO HARVARD I TOOK MY QUALIFYING EXAM FOR THE
Ph.D. AND PRESENTED AT THAT EXAM SOME MATERIAL
DEALING WITH WATER QUALITY MODELING AS THE
DIRECTION -- PROPOSED DIRECTION FOR MY
DISSERTATION.
Q. WAS THAT RELATED TO THE WORK YOU HAD DONE IN THE
SUMMER OR A DIFFERENT WORK?
A. NOT REALLY -- WELL, IN THE SENSE THAT IT DEALT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 36
WITH EUTROPHICATION. BUT THE SUMMER WORK INVOLVED
FIELD STUDIES IN NON-TECHNICAL WRITING; WHEREAS,
THE DISSERTATION WAS APT TO INVOLVE STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS AND MODELING.
Q. WHAT'S EUTROPHICATION?
A. NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT.
Q. AND WHAT DREW YOU TO THAT PARTICULAR TOPIC?
A. I CAN'T RECALL EXACTLY, BUT I THINK, LIKELY, THE
WORK IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHICH FOCUSED ON
EUTROPHICATION; COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT THE
U.S. EPA WAS IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE NATIONAL
EUTROPHICATION SURVEY, WHICH IS A MONITORING
PROGRAM THAT WAS -- THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE EARLY
'70'S THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY MONITORING ROUGHLY
700 LAKES FOR NUTRIENT INPUTS AND NUTRIENT
CONCENTRATIONS IN THE LAKES. AND SO, THERE WAS
OPPORTUNITY TO GET AN EARLY LOOK AT A NATIONWIDE
DATA SET.
Q. WAS THERE ANY FOCUS ON PARTICULAR NUTRIENTS OR
JUST ON THE---
A. PHOSPHORUS AND, TO A MUCH LESSER DEGREE, NITROGEN.
Q. NOW, WHEN DID THE INTEREST IN PHOSPHORUS FIRST
DEVELOP THAT LED TO THIS PROGRAM THAT YOU
DESCRIBED? I MEAN, GENERALLY, NOT JUST IN YOUR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 37
LIFE BUT---
A. OH, I THINK PROBABLY EITHER THROUGH COURSE WORK AT
HARVARD OR THE STUDY IN NEW HAMPSHIRE IT BECAME
CLEAR THAT PHOSPHORUS WAS A KEY MANAGEMENT
NUTRIENT FOR CONTROLLING EUTROPHICATION IN LAKES.
Q. OKAY. WHY DID ANYBODY CARE ABOUT EUTROPHICATION
IN LAKES?
A. VALUATION IN TERMS OF PUBLIC EXPERIENCE SEEMED TO
RELATE FAIRLY HEAVILY TO AESTHETICS CONDITIONS
THAT TIED INTO EUTROPHICATION. FLOATING ALGAL
BLOOMS WERE OBJECTIONABLE AQUATIC PLANTS; CHANGES
IN FISH SPECIES, DOMINANCE. ALL OF THOSE ARE
RELATED TO NUTRIENTS AND EUTROPHICATION AND PEOPLE
TENDED TO RESPOND TO THOSE AS MUCH AS TO ANYTHING
IN EVALUATION OF WATER QUALITY.
Q. WHEN DID THIS INTEREST IN EUTROPHICATION START?
A. IN GENERAL IN---
Q. IN GENERAL.
A. ---PUBLIC?
Q. YEAH, IN THE PUBLIC.
A. I CAN'T SAY FOR CERTAIN, BUT THERE WAS, CLEARLY,
QUITE A BIT OF CONCERN ABOUT -- PUBLICLY AND
FAIRLY WIDESPREAD ABOUT THE GREAT LAKES AND LAKE
ERIE IN THE MID-'60'S. AND THERE WAS CONCERN
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 38
ABOUT LARGE LAKES IN EUROPE ABOUT THAT TIME, AS
WELL.
Q. AND THAT WAS A EUTROPHICATION PROBLEM?
A. YES, YES.
Q. AS OPPOSED TO OTHER KINDS---
A. AS FAR AS---
Q. ---OF TOXIC POLLUTANTS?
A. YES, YES.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT'S RELATED, IN PART, TO
THE AESTHETICS INVOLVED?
A. WELL, I THINK PUBLIC RESPONSE IS IN RELATION TO
AESTHETICS THAT TIE INTO EUTROPHICATION.
Q. IS IT WIDELY -- IS IT A WIDELY HELD VIEW THAT
EUTROPHICATION IS SOMETHING BAD?
A. IT'S NOT UNIVERSALLY HELD, I BELIEVE, BUT IT'S
WIDELY HELD, YES.
Q. DO YOU HOLD THAT VIEW?
A. IN A PERSONAL SENSE, NO.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. BECAUSE I HAVE EXPERIENCED DIFFERENT SITUATIONS
ENJOYING DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WATER BODIES, SOME
OF WHICH ARE NOT EUTROPHIC AND SOME OF WHICH ARE.
Q. I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
A. WHEN I WAS IN NEW ENGLAND, I ENJOYED THE WATER
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 39
QUALITY AND THE WATER BODIES BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT
EUTROPHIC. THEY WERE CLEAR, CLEAN, VERY PLEASANT
WATER BODIES. WHEN I TAUGHT AT MICHIGAN STATE, WE
LIVED ON A SHALLOW, MAN-MADE POND THAT WAS HIGHLY
EUTROPHIC; BUT IT WAS WONDERFUL FOR LARGE-MOUTH
BASS FISHING.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU BELIEVE IT'S A VALUE JUDGMENT IN
TERMS OF WHETHER EUTROPHICATION IS SOMETHING TO BE
DESIRED OR NOT.
A. YEAH, DESIRABILITY IS A VALUE JUDGMENT. THAT'S
RIGHT.
Q. AND YOUR VALUE JUDGMENT ON THAT IS THAT YOU DON'T
MIND EUTROPHICATION.
A. MY VALUE JUDGMENT IS, IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION.
Q. SO, IN SOME WATER BODIES YOU WOULD AGREE THAT
EUTROPHICATION IS A NEGATIVE AS OPPOSED TO A
POSITIVE?
A. CERTAINLY.
Q. HOW ABOUT THE EVERGLADES?
A. I DON'T HAVE A VALUE JUDGMENT THERE.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION ON THAT SITUATION
TO HAVE A VALUE JUDGMENT.
Q. JUST SO I'M CLEAR, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, THEN,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 40
YOU DON'T HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER
EUTROPHICATION OF THE EVERGLADES IS GOOD OR BAD?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. IS EUTROPHICATION OCCURRING IN THE EVERGLADES?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
MR. REID: OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU -- WE'LL
TAKE A MINUTE AND YOU CAN EAT A MOUTHFUL?
WITNESS: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID:
Q. SOMETHING I WANTED TO ASK YOU TO FOLLOW UP TO THE
LAST THING YOU SAID. IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT -- HOW DO
YOU DESCRIBE A BODY OF WATER AS BEING EUTROPHIC?
A. I DON'T HAVE A DEFINITION OTHER THAN THE
SCIENTIFIC CLASSIFICATION SCHEME THAT'S
APPROPRIATE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD THAT BE?
A. I DON'T KNOW. IT VARIES FROM LOCATION TO
LOCATION.
Q. HOW IS IT DEFINED?
A. TERMS OF NUTRIENT CONCENTRATIONS; WATER CLARITY.
Q. SO -- AND NUTRIENT CONCENTRATIONS -- WOULD THAT BE
IN PARTS PER BILLION, FOR INSTANCE?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 41
A. UH-HUH (YES). YES.
Q. AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION OR IS THERE -- WELL,
LET'S START BROADER. IS THERE SOME, GENERALLY,
ACCEPTED LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS PARTS PER BILLION AT
WHICH SCIENTISTS WOULD SAY THAT A BODY OF WATER IS
EUTROPHIC?
A. NO.
Q. IS THAT BECAUSE IT VARIES FROM BODY TO BODY---
A. YES.
Q. ---THAT 10 PARTS PER BILLION MIGHT BE EUTROPHIC IN
ONE BODY OF WATER AND 200 PARTS PER BILLION MIGHT
BE IN ANOTHER?
A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY, YEAH.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE EVERGLADES WAS HISTORICALLY?
A. NO.
Q. NOW, YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOUR Ph.D. -- WE SORT OF
GOT SIDETRACKED. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU DEVELOPED
AN INTEREST IN THE SUBJECT OF EUTROPHICATION.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. AND WHAT WAS ACTUALLY THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR
RESEARCH? WHAT DISSERTATION OR -- I GUESS IT'S
CALLED A DISSERTATION AT THAT LEVEL?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY.
†奅匮ഊഊ††††††††††儮†⁏䭁央ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 42
A. DEALT WITH STATISTICAL MODELS DESCRIBING
EUTROPHICATION RELATIONSHIPS.
Q. DID YOU FOCUS ON ANY PARTICULAR ACTUAL BODIES OF
WATER?
A. I USED THE NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION SURVEY DATA.
Q. SO, YOU FOCUSED ON BODIES OF WATER THROUGHOUT THE
COUNTRY?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR
DISSERTATION? I KNOW TO GET YOUR Ph.D. BUT---
A. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. ---BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD TO TELL ME WHAT YOU
WERE TRYING TO PROVE OR DISPROVE OR---
A. I WAS TRYING TO---
Q. ---FIND OUT.
A. ---LEARN A SET OF METHODS AND DEVELOP GOOD
STATISTICAL MODELS.
Q. FOR WHAT?
A. DESCRIBING THE, AS I MENTIONED, EUTROPHICATION
RELATIONSHIPS.
Q. SO YOU LOOKED AT -- I'M INTERESTED IN HOW YOU WENT
ABOUT THIS. YOU TOOK ALL THE DATA THAT YOU FOUND.
AND I ASSUME THAT DATA WOULD BE THAT CERTAIN
BODIES OF WATER HAD CERTAIN PARTS PER BILLION OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 43
PHOSPHORUS, FOR INSTANCE.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. WOULD THAT BE THE ONLY DATA YOU WERE LOOKING AT
AS---
A. WE LOOKED AT A VARIETY OF DATA ON NUTRIENT INPUTS,
WATER INPUT, EUTROPHICATION MEASURES IN LAKES; AND
LOOKED AT RELATIONSHIPS.
Q. AND WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE?
A. WASN'T A SINGLE CONCLUSION.
Q. SURE.
A. CONCLUDED THAT THERE WERE RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE
EUTROPHICATION VARIABLES AND THESE WERE THE
RELATIONSHIPS WE FOUND.
Q. OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME OF THOSE
RELATIONSHIPS?
A. NO.
Q. OF HOW MANY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
A. GEE, I DON'T REMEMBER. WE LOOKED---
Q. HOW MANY---
A. ---AT SEVERAL, NOT---
Q. ---HOW MANY VARIABLES WERE YOU LOOKING AT?
A. I WAS LOOK -- I LOOKED AT AS MANY AS 30 OR 40
VARIABLES, AS I RECALL.
Q. AND ALL THESE ARE TRACKED BY THE NATIONAL
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 44
STATISTICS THAT YOU WERE LOOKING AT -- THOSE THAT
YOU WERE USING?
A. YEAH, THEY WERE ALL FROM THE NATIONAL
EUTROPHICATION SURVEY.
Q. YOU DIDN'T GO OUT AND DO ANY TESTING YOURSELF.
A. NO, I DIDN'T, NO.
Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT WAS THE ULTIMATE CONTRIBUTION TO
THE FIELD THAT YOU THINK YOUR DISSERTATION MADE?
A. IT PROVIDED A SET OF STATISTICAL RELATIONSHIPS
DESCRIBING THESE VARIABLES AND THE ERRORS OF
PREDICTION.
Q. CAN YOU THINK OF ANY RELATIONSHIPS? I'M JUST --
BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, SO I HAVE A BETTER
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU WERE DOING.
A. UH-HUH (YES). PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION PREDICTED
AS A FUNCTION OF PHOSPHORUS LOADING, MEAN DEPTH
WATER RESIDENCE TIME.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION THERE?
A. THERE WAS A RELATIONSHIP.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT YOUR WORK TO BE
USED BY OTHER SCIENTISTS?
A. I'D EXPECT THAT THE STATISTICAL MODELS WOULD BE
USED AS PREDICTIVE TOOLS.
Q. NOW, HAVE YOU USED ANY -- SPECIFICALLY, ANY OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 45
THAT DATA IN THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE IN THIS
CASE?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANY OF YOUR COLLEAGUES THAT ARE
WORKING ON THIS AT DUKE WETLAND CENTER HAVE USED
ANY OF YOUR WORK?
A. I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH.
Q. NOW, WHY IS THAT? THAT WOULD SEEM TO RELATE TO
ME, SO MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING.
A. I'M NOT SURE ANY OF THEM ARE AWARE OF THE NATIONAL
EUTROPHICATION SURVEY, SINCE IT WAS TWENTY YEARS
AGO. THIS DEALT WITH LAKES AND I JUST -- I DON'T
-- I HAVEN'T SHOWN IT TO THEM. I JUST DON'T KNOW
THAT THEY'D BE AWARE OF THE WORK.
Q. WOULD IT -- WOULD THE FACT THAT IT DEALT WITH
LAKES MEAN THAT IT WOULD HAVE NO APPLICATION TO
THE EVERGLADES?
A. NO, HUH-UH (NO).
Q. WHAT LEVEL OF APPLICATION DO YOU THINK IT WOULD
HAVE TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. I'M REALLY NOT SURE, BUT I JUST DON'T THINK THAT
THEY WOULD GO TO THAT LITERATURE TO ENHANCE THEIR
WORK ON THE EVERGLADES.
Q. NOW, WE'LL GET INTO IT, OBVIOUSLY, IN MORE DETAIL.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 46
YOU'RE WORKING ON A MODEL IN THIS CASE.
A. OH, IN THIS CASE WITH THE---
Q. YES.
A. ---EVER -- YES.
Q. YEAH. AND I ASSUME THE MODEL HAS SOMETHING TO DO
WITH NUTRIENTS AND OTHER VARIABLES IN A -- THAT
ARE INCLUDED IN THE EVERGLADES IN THE PROCESS OF
EUTROPHICATION.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. BUT NONE OF YOUR WORK BEFORE, DEALING WITH THE
SAME SUBJECT MATTERS IN LAKES, IS PROVIDING YOU
ANY BASIS FOR WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW?
A. IT'S PROVIDING ME WITH AN UNDERSTANDING THAT
VARIABLES SUCH AS NUTRIENT LOADING, MEAN DEPTH AND
WATER RESIDENCE TIME MIGHT BE IMPORTANT.
Q. BUT IT'S NOT TELLING YOU THAT THOSE VARIABLES
RELATE IN THE EVERGLADES THE SAME WAY THEY RELATED
IN YOUR RESEARCH OR IN THE LAKE SURVEY?
A. IT'S NOT TELLING ME THAT, NO, HUH-UH (NO). NO.
Q. BUT ARE YOU TRYING TO FIND THAT OUT OR---
A. NO, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD REFERENCE THAT WORK,
FOR EXAMPLE. I JUST THINK IT WOULD HAVE THAT
LITTLE APPLICABILITY.
Q. WHAT OTHER WORK DID YOU DO AT HARVARD THAT RELATES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 47
TO WHAT YOU'RE NOW DOING?
A. WELL, OF COURSE, AS I MENTIONED, THAT WORK --
DISSERTATION RELATES IN A VERY LIMITED DEGREE.
Q. SURE. DID ANYTHING YOU DID AT HARVARD RELATE TO
WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW, I GUESS, IS A BETTER
QUESTION?
A. I MEAN, YES, IN TERMS OF EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE
RELATED TO EVERYTHING ELSE. BUT NO, IN TERMS OF
ANY SUBSTANTIVE RELATIONSHIP.
Q. UP THROUGH THE COMPLETION OF YOUR Ph.D., HAD YOU
DONE ANY WORK RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. NO.
Q. HAD YOU EVER BEEN IN THE EVERGLADES?
A. YES, HIGH SCHOOL VACATION.
Q. OKAY. ON YOUR WAY TO THE BEACH, I GUESS, RIGHT?
A. NO, NO. WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE, BUT, NO.
Q. WHEN YOU FINISHED OR -- STRIKE THAT. BETWEEN '72
AND '77 WERE YOU EMPLOYED?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING DURING THAT TIME?
A. DURING THE SUMMER, AS I MENTIONED, I WORKED ON
THAT STUDY FUNDED BY THE APPALACHIAN MOUNTAIN
CLUB---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 48
A. ---AND LAKES REGION PLANNING COMMISSION. AND I
CONTINUED THAT WORK WITH THE LAKES REGION PLANNING
COMMISSION RIGHT THROUGH GRADUATION.
Q. OKAY. ULTIMATELY, WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT
WORK? WAS THERE SOMETHING PUBLISHED OR---
A. THEY PUBLISHED SEVERAL AGENCY REPORTS, AND I GUESS
THAT'S ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE
WORK.
Q. OKAY. I ASSUME NOTHING THAT YOU DID THERE RELATES
TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW.
A. NO, IT DOESN'T. HUH-UH (NO).
Q. WHEN YOU FINISHED YOUR Ph.D., THEN, WHAT WAS YOUR
NEXT JOB?
A. I TAUGHT AT MICHIGAN STATE.
Q. AND FOR WHAT YEARS?
A. 1977 TO 1980.
Q. WHAT WAS YOUR TITLE?
A. I WAS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCE
DEVELOPMENT?
A. IT'S A DEPARTMENT IN THE COLLEGE OF NATURAL
RESOURCES THAT INCLUDES WATER RESOURCES, RESOURCE
ECONOMICS AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 49
Q. OKAY. WHAT COURSES OR WHAT AREAS DID YOU TEACH IN
THERE?
A. I TAUGHT WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT -- GEE, AND I
CAN'T REMEMBER -- I THINK WATER QUALITY MODELING.
Q. SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU'RE TEACHING NOW?
A. YEAH, PRECURSORS, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE FOCUS OF THOSE COURSES AT THAT
POINT IN TIME?
A. SAME GENERAL COURSE TOPICS, REALLY, AS I RECALL.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU DEAL IN ANY WAY WITH SUBJECTS
CONCERNING EUTROPHICATION IN THOSE COURSES?
A. I'M SURE I DID, YEAH.
Q. HOW ABOUT THE EVERGLADES?
A. I DOUBT VERY MUCH THAT I DID.
Q. WHAT BODIES OF WATER -- OR WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
YOUR FOCUS AT THAT TIME IN THOSE COURSES?
A. WATER BODIES, IN GENERAL. IF I HAD CASE STUDIES,
THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN GREAT LAKES RELATED.
Q. WHAT DO YOU CALL THE EVERGLADES, BY THE WAY, JUST
SO WE KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING? I
MEAN, IT'S NOT A LAKE, OBVIOUSLY.
A. OH, I THINK OF IT AS A WETLAND.
Q. A WETLAND AND WHAT---
A. YEAH, A WETLAND.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 50
Q. ---HOW DO YOU DEFINE "WETLAND"?
A. A LAND AREA THAT IS WET MUCH OF THE YEAR AND THAT
IS DOMINATED BY ROOTED AQUATIC VEGETATION AND IS
SHALLOW.
Q. WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER A "BOG"?
A. I HAVE NO OPINION. I SHOULDN'T SAY "OPINION." I
HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OR DEFINITION, YEAH.
Q. IS THAT -- CAN YOU USE THAT WORD INTERCHANGEABLY?
A. I PROBABLY WOULD. IT MAY NOT BE CORRECT.
Q. HOW ABOUT "SWAMP"?
A. I'D PROBABLY USE THAT WORD INTERCHANGEABLY, TOO.
Q. BUT YOU CAN'T TELL ME ANY SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR
DISTINGUISHING---
A. NO.
Q. ---AMONG THOSE WORDS?
A. NO, HUH-UH (NO).
Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER MICHIGAN STATE?
A. I CAME TO DUKE.
Q. AND, WHEN YOU CAME TO DUKE, WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST
JOB?
A. I WAS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF
FORESTRY IN ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT A PRECURSOR, IN PART, AT LEAST, TO
THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 51
A. YES, IT IS.
Q. WAS IT DIVIDED BETWEEN FORESTRY AND THE
ENVIRONMENT OR NAME CHANGE OR WHAT?
A. NO. FORESTRY ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES MERGED WITH
THE MARINE LAB TO FORM THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT.
Q. OKAY. WHEN WAS THAT?
A. 1991.
Q. OKAY. IT'S BEEN THAT -- BEEN FAIRLY RECENT?
A. YES, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU CAME TO DUKE, DID YOU
TEACH THE SAME COURSES THAT YOU WERE TEACHING AT
MICHIGAN STATE AND THAT YOU'RE TEACHING NOW?
A. LET ME THINK. JUST -- YEAH, I TAUGHT WATER
QUALITY MANAGEMENT INITIALLY. I THINK THAT WAS
THE FIRST COURSE I TAUGHT. AND I ALSO TAUGHT
REGRESSION ANALYSIS AND INTRODUCTORY STATISTICS.
Q. THE STATISTICS COURSES -- WHAT SCHOOL WERE THEY
TAUGHT THROUGH?
A. FORESTRY AND ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES.
Q. TO GRADUATE STUDENTS?
A. GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS, YEAH.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU TAUGHT SINCE YOU'VE
BEEN AT DUKE THAT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ABOUT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 52
ALREADY TODAY?
A. LET ME THINK. I TAUGHT, FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS,
WATER RESOURCES MODELING, WHICH -- A SPECIAL
TOPICS COURSE -- WHICH WAS A SPECIAL TOPICS
COURSE. AND WHAT ELSE? THAT'S THE -- MAY BE
SOMETHING ELSE LISTED THERE, BUT, OFF THE TOP OF
MY HEAD, IT---
Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WATER RESOURCES
MODELING AND WATER QUALITY MODELING?
A. WATER RESOURCES MODELING WAS A COURSE THAT TWO OUT
OF THREE OF OUR WATER FACULTY TAUGHT AT ANY ONE
TIME, AND WE JUST BROUGHT IN SPECIAL TOPICS AT THE
TIME WE WERE INVOLVED.
Q. AND WHEN WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN?
A. WHEN WOULD I HAVE TAUGHT THAT?
Q. WHEN YOU WOULD HAVE TAUGHT IT, YEAH.
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. LATE '80'S -- MID- TO LATE
'80'S. SEEMS TO ME I TAUGHT IT A COUPLE OF YEARS.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU -- WHEN DID YOU ADD THE
APPOINTMENTS IN THE OTHER SCHOOLS?
A. ENGINEERING WAS ADDED PRETTY QUICKLY, WITHIN A
YEAR OR TWO OF WHEN I ARRIVED. IN STATISTICS AND
DECISION SCIENCES, I HAD AN APPOINT -- RESEARCH
FACULTY APPOINTMENT WITH THEM FOR A COUPLE OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 53
YEARS, WHICH MIGHT HAVE BEEN LATE '80'S TO EARLY
'90'S. AND THEN, THE STANDARD FACULTY APPOINTMENT
BEGAN THIS JANUARY.
Q. SO NOW YOU'RE AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR IN THE
INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES?
A. UH-HUH (YES). YES.
Q. SO I CAN -- ON YOUR CV THAT I HAVE, I CAN "X" OFF
RESEARCH.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT LIKE A PROMOTION OR IS IT JUST
DIFFERENT FUNCTION?
A. IT'S JUST A CHANGE OF TITLES. THEY ELIMINATED --
AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY ELIMINATED THE RESEARCH
FACULTY AND APPOINTED SOME OF THEM ASSISTANT AND
ASSOCIATE WITHOUT THE WORD "RESEARCH."
Q. WHAT IS THE REASON THAT YOU WOULD HAVE
APPOINTMENTS IN OTHER SCHOOLS? IS THAT JUST, YOU
EARN MORE MONEY DOING THAT OR---
A. THERE'S NO MONEY ASSOCIATED WITH IT. IT---
Q. WHY DOES IT HAPPEN?
A. ---IT FACILITATES INTERACTIONS. IT'S AN
ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT SOMEONE'S INVOLVED IN AN AREA
OF STUDY.
Q. NOW, WHAT IS THE -- STRIKE THAT. WHEN DID YOU --
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 54
YOU CAME AS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, I THINK YOU
SAID.
A. YES.
Q. WHEN DID YOU GET PROMOTED TO ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR?
A. BELIEVE IT WAS 1985.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WOULD BE THE NEXT STEP?
A. FULL.
Q. AND HAVE YOU -- HAS THAT COME UP FOR YOU YET?
A. NO.
Q. WHEN WILL THAT COME UP?
A. IT'S NOT MY DECISION.
Q. OH, THERE'S NO SORT OF ROUTINE?
A. NO.
Q. CAN YOU ASK ABOUT IT OR DOES SOMEONE JUST COME IN
ONE DAY AND TELL YOU?
A. I CAN ASK ABOUT IT, YEAH, OR SOMEONE WILL -- A
DEAN OR A COMMITTEE WILL DECIDE IT'S APPROPRIATE.
Q. NOW, YOU'VE BEEN AN ASSOCIATE FOR ABOUT SEVEN OR
EIGHT YEARS.
A. YEAH.
Q. IS THAT THE NORM AT DUKE OR IN YOUR PARTICULAR
AREA?
A. I DON'T KNOW. IT VARIES. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. OKAY. NOW, TENURE IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU'RE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 55
CALLED, I ASSUME, OR IS IT?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
Q. WELL, DO YOU HAVE TENURE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU GET TENURE?
A. WHEN I WAS PROMOTED FROM ASSISTANT TO ASSOCIATE.
Q. OKAY. AND IS THAT THE NORMAL TIME WHEN ONE GETS
TENURE, WHEN YOU BECOME AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR?
THAT'S WHAT I MEANT BY THAT.
A. OH, OKAY.
Q. IS IT UNRELATED TO YOUR TITLE OR---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---OR DOES IT COME WITH THE TITLE?
A. NO, IT VARIES FROM DEPARTMENT TO DEPARTMENT AS TO
WHETHER IT'LL OCCUR THEN.
Q. IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT EUTROPHICATION HAS BEEN
PART OF THE COURSES THAT YOU'VE TAUGHT FOR THE
ENTIRE TIME YOU'VE BEEN AT DUKE?
A. FOR WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT AND WATER QUALITY
MODELING, YES.
Q. WHEN DID, SPECIFICALLY, YOU DEAL WITH THE
EVERGLADES FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR TEACHING?
A. I DON'T RECALL. MAY HAVE BEEN LAST YEAR.
Q. AND WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO START DEALING WITH THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 56
EVERGLADES IN YOUR TEACHING?
A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU BEFORE, I NEEDED AN EXAMPLE
TO HELP ILLUSTRATE THE REAL-WORLD APPLICABILITY OF
METHODS, AND THAT WAS ONE THAT I CHOSE.
Q. OKAY. SO THAT -- WHAT YOUR -- A MINUTE AGO THE
HANDOUT THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT -- THAT WOULD HAVE
BEEN THE FIRST TIME EVERGLADES BECAME INVOLVED IN
YOUR TEACHING?
A. I THINK SO, YEAH.
Q. NOW, THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER -- WHEN WAS THAT
CREATED AS A CENTER?
A. YOU ASKED BEFORE---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK THREE YEARS AGO.
Q. OKAY. WERE YOU PART OF THE CENTER FROM ITS
INCEPTION?
A. YES.
Q. HOW DOES THAT CHANGE WHAT YOU DO?
A. NOT AT ALL.
Q. SO, EVERYTHING IS THE SAME?
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. DO YOU -- DOES IT CHANGE YOUR COMPENSATION?
A. NO.
Q. AND YOU SAID EARLIER THAT YOUR COMPENSATION COMES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 57
ENTIRELY THROUGH DUKE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY.
A. WELL, I SAID THAT MY COMPENSATION COMES ENTIRELY
THROUGH THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM THROUGH DUKE?
A. WELL, IT DOESN'T COME THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF
CIVIL ENGINEERING.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN ADDITION TO YOUR SALARY THAT YOU
GET FOR -- THROUGH THE SCHOOL FOR BEING A
PROFESSOR, DO YOU GET PAID FOR BEING A CONSULTANT?
A. YES.
Q. IS THAT DONE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF THE SCHOOL?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. DOES DUKE HAVE ANY SORT OF GUIDELINES WITH
REGARD TO ITS PROFESSORS AND CONSULTING WORK?
A. DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR, YOU'RE PERMITTED ONE DAY
A MONTH.
Q. ONE DAY A MONTH?
A. ONE DAY A WEEK -- I'M SORRY -- ONE DAY A WEEK,
YEAH, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. DOES ANYBODY ACTUALLY MONITOR THAT?
A. THEY MIGHT IN SOME DEPARTMENTS.
Q. DO THEY IN YOUR DEPARTMENT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 58
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU FIRST BEGIN DOING OUTSIDE
CONSULTING WORK IN YOUR CAREER?
A. I DON'T RECALL. IT MAY HAVE BEEN -- OH, I WAS
CONSULTING A LITTLE BIT WHEN I WAS A GRADUATE
STUDENT. THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU CONSULT ANY AT MICHIGAN
STATE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER DOING ANY THERE.
Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU GOT TO DUKE, WHEN DID YOU
FIRST BEGIN DOING CONSULTING WORK?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT MAY HAVE BEEN TEN YEARS AGO.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE -- WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST -- HOW DID
YOU GET INTO THAT AREA?
A. AS I HAVE SAID, I JUST DON'T REMEMBER HOW IT BEGAN
AND -- I JUST DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. OKAY. AS OF NOW, HOW MUCH OF YOUR TIME IS
CONSULTING? HOW MUCH CONSULTING DO YOU DO? I
KNOW, ONE DAY A WEEK.
A. YEAH, ONE DAY A WEEK.
Q. RIGHT. YOU'RE UNDER OATH, RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
MR. FITZGERALD: YOU COULD BE IN THE
AWKWARD POSITION, LIKE, IF YOUR DEPARTMENT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 59
HEAD WAS HERE OR---
MR. REID: YEAH, RIGHT. JUST THE
LAWYERS HERE, YOU'RE SAFE.
MR. FITZGERALD: ---OF HIM INVOKING YOUR
RIGHTS SO YOUR ATTORNEY DOESN'T HEAR THIS.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
A. GOSH, I HAVEN'T DONE ANY -- WELL, I SHOULD TAKE
THAT BACK. I'VE DONE -- IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS
I'VE MAYBE DONE A WEEK OF -- A DAY OF CONSULTING.
IT WILL VARY DURING THE TIME OF YEAR.
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. NOW, WE KNOW YOU'RE DOING
CONSULTING FOR THE COOPERATIVE.
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. OH, YOU'RE NOT?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR THE FRUIT AND
VEGETABLE GROWERS?
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR ANY PRIVATE
COMPANIES?
A. I DON'T -- NO, HUH-UH (NO).
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 60
Q. WHO'S PAYING YOU TO BE HERE TODAY?
A. NO ONE.
Q. OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: COULD WE GO OFF THE
RECORD FOR A SECOND?
MR. REID: SURE.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) HOW ABOUT FOR THE ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION DISTRICT IN THE EVERGLADES; ARE YOU
CONSULTING FOR THEM NOW?
A. NOW, WHICH GROUP IS THAT?
Q. WELL, IT'S CALLED THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION---
A. I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT---
Q. ---DISTRICT.
A. WHO?
MR. FITZGERALD: EVERGLADES AGRICULTURAL
AREA, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT.
MR. REID: OKAY. YEAH. I DIDN'T KNOW
WHAT THE EXACT NAME WAS.
A. WHO'S SUPPORTING THAT---
Q. (BY MR. REID) THE SUGAR INDUSTRY?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 61
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU CONSULTING FOR ANYBODY
WITH REGARD TO ANY OF THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING
IN THE -- RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. FOR WHOM?
A. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU START THAT WORK?
A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
Q. OKAY. WHO CALLED YOU AND ASKED YOU TO CONSULT FOR
THE DISTRICT?
A. GARTH REDFIELD.
Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT?
A. I'M CO-CHAIRING THE MONITORING COMMITTEE -- THE
SUBCOMMITTEE WITH BILL WALKER.
Q. AND THAT'S A SUBCOMMITTEE TO WHAT?
A. I GET MY ACRONYMS CONFUSED.
Q. TOC?
A. YEAH.
Q. SAGE?
A. TOC, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK FOR SAGE?
A. NO.
Q. OR DO YOU KNOW WHAT SAGE IS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 62
A. I'D SAY I'M -- I DON'T KNOW THE -- I DON'T HAVE A
CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO.
Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THE
DISTRICT FOR YOUR WORK AS CO-CHAIR OF THE
MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE?
A. AS OF THIS MOMENT, NO, I DON'T.
Q. DID YOU HAVE ONE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW WAS YOUR COMPENSATION BASED ON
THAT?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
Q. HOW WAS IT SET? WAS IT A LUMP SUM, AN HOURLY
RATE---
A. YEAH, THEY SET A CEILING.
Q. OH, SO IT WAS A LUMP SUM FOR THE WORK THAT YOU
WERE ASKED TO DO?
A. WELL, THEY -- IT WAS A -- MAY HAVE BEEN A PURCHASE
ORDER, AND I BILLED AGAINST IT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE TOTAL?
A. BOY, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK IT WAS
ROUGHLY NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($9,000.00).
Q. AND HAVE YOU EXHAUSTED THOSE SUMS?
A. YES.
Q. SO, YOU'RE WAITING FOR A RENEWAL OR YOU'RE NOT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 63
GOING TO BE DOING ANY MORE WORK?
A. I'M WAITING FOR A RENEWAL.
Q. DO YOU EXPECT ONE TO COME?
A. GARTH TOLD ME ONE WAS COMING.
Q. AND DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT'S GOING TO BE?
A. NO.
Q. YOU MAY HAVE SAID. WHEN DID YOU BEGIN THAT
CONTRACT?
A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
Q. AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, THEN, YOU HAVE NO OTHER
CONSULTANT'S JOBS---
A. IN FLORIDA, THAT'S CORRECT---
Q. ---CONNECTED WITH THE EVERGLADES?
A. ---CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. ASIDE FROM THE ONE WITH THE DISTRICT, HAVE
YOU HAD ANY CONSULTING JOBS RELATING TO THE
EVERGLADES, EVER?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND LET'S GO BACK IN TIME, YOU KNOW,
REVERSE CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. WHAT'S THE MOST
RECENT ONE THAT YOU'VE HAD?
A. LET ME THINK. I GUESS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MAYBE
A YEAR AND A HALF AGO THROUGH PEEPLES, EARL &
BLANK.
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DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 64
Q. WERE YOU HIRED BY PEEPLES, EARL?
A. YES.
Q. AND FOR WHAT CLIENT OF PEEPLES, EARL WERE YOU
HIRED TO PERFORM SERVICE?
A. I THINK THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
Q. WHO CALLED YOU FROM PEEPLES, EARL?
A. GEE, I DON'T REMEMBER -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN RICK
BURGESS.
Q. NOW, YOU DIDN'T BRING ANY DOCUMENTS WITH YOU
TODAY, DID YOU?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. AND WOULD YOU HAVE RECORDS THAT WOULD
REFLECT WHEN EXACTLY YOU HAD THIS CALL WITH RICK
BURGESS?
A. WHEN I HAD THE CALL?
Q. YEAH.
A. I BET I DON'T.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR CONSULTING
WORK. DO YOU HAVE A SEPARATE CORPORATION SET UP
TO DO THAT?
A. NO. HUH-UH (NO).
Q. SO, YOU'RE JUST PAID -- YOU SEND OUT BILLS AND YOU
GET PAYMENTS.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 65
Q. DO YOU CHARGE AN HOURLY RATE FOR THIS KIND OF
WORK?
A. EXCUSE ME. YES, I DO.
Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR HOURLY RATE?
A. IT VARIES.
Q. GIVE ME THE RANGE.
A. SEVENTY ($70.00) TO ONE HUNDRED ($100.00) AN HOUR.
Q. WHAT MAKES A DISTINCTION OR WHAT MAKES YOU DECIDE
WHICH TO CHARGE?
A. SOMETIMES IT'S CONSTRAINED BY THE AGENCY
ORGANIZATION.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE CONSULTING WORK
THAT YOU DO, DO YOU KEEP RECORDS OR FILES SEPARATE
FROM THE ONES YOU KEEP AT THE UNIVERSITY
CONCERNING YOUR WORK AT DUKE?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHERE DO YOU KEEP THOSE FILES?
A. AT HOME.
Q. AND DO YOU HAVE A FILE THAT WOULD BE IDENTIFIED AS
RELATING TO THIS ENGAGEMENT BY PEEPLES, EARL?
A. I HAVE A STACK OF MATERIAL, YEAH -- FILES AND
THAT.
Q. OKAY. AND WOULD THAT INCLUDE NOT ONLY, WHAT WE'LL
CALL, SUBSTANTIVE MATERIAL BUT WOULD ALSO INCLUDE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 66
YOUR ADMINISTRATIVE MATERIAL FROM YOUR CONSULTING
WORK?
A. YES.
Q. AND WOULD IT HAVE BILLS, FOR INSTANCE, THAT YOU
SENT FOR YOUR WORK?
A. PROBABLY DOES, YEAH.
Q. AND WOULD IT HAVE LETTERS BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN
YOU AND COUNSEL?
A. YEAH.
Q. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SPECIFICS OF THAT IN A
LITTLE BIT, BUT I WANT TO WORK BACK TO GET ALL
YOUR CONSULTANCIES BEFORE RICK BURGESS CALLED YOU.
WHAT WAS THE ONE IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING THAT?
A. NOW, YOU'RE REFERRING TO EVERGLADES IN FLORIDA?
Q. WELL, NO, I MEAN ANY CONSULTING JOBS.
A. ANY CONSULTING JOBS---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---ANYWHERE?
Q. RIGHT.
A. OH, I CAN'T RECALL ALL THE CONSULTING ACTIVITIES
I'VE HAD. AND I HAVE -- NO, I MEAN, I JUST
COULDN'T DO THAT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WELL, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU HAVE
NO CONTRACTS, EXCEPT THE ONE WITH THE DISTRICT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 67
A. WELL, YOU'VE ASKED ME JUST ABOUT FLORIDA, AND
THAT'S WHAT I RESPONDED TO.
Q. OKAY. WELL, I MEANT TO BE BROADER IN THE
BEGINNING.
A. OKAY.
Q. SO MAYBE WE GOT OFF ON THE WRONG TRACK.
A. OKAY. YEAH.
Q. TODAY, AS YOU SIT HERE, YOU DO HAVE SOME
CONSULTING JOBS?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO THEY RELATE TO?
A. THE EVERGLADES, THE MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE THAT I
MENTIONED---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---A PROJECT WITH THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU GET THAT JOB?
A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
Q. AND WHO HIRED YOU FOR THAT?
A. TONY FEDERICO.
Q. AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING THERE?
A. SETTING UP A DECISION ANALYTIC FRAMEWORK FOR
MANAGEMENT OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. WHAT SPECIFIC PROBLEM ARE YOU DEALING WITH WITH
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 68
LAKE OKEECHOBEE?
A. EUTROPHICATION OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE AMOUNT OF THAT CONTRACT?
A. OH, BOY. FIFTEEN THOUSAND ($15,000.00)?
Q. IS THAT STILL GOING ON?
A. YES.
Q. HAVE YOU PREPARED ANY WORK PRODUCT YET THAT YOU'D
SUBMIT TO THE DISTRICT?
A. A DRAFT MANUSCRIPT.
Q. WHAT'S IT CALLED?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE TITLE, BUT IT'S SOMETHING
ABOUT DECISION ANALYSIS IN LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S JUST FOCUS ON FLORIDA---
A. OKAY.
Q. ---FOR THE NEXT FEW QUESTIONS, AND THEN WE'LL GO
BACK TO YOUR GENERAL WORK.
A. OKAY.
Q. WORKING BACK, WHAT IS THE NEXT CONSULTING JOB THAT
YOU'VE HAD RELATING -- RELATED TO FLORIDA?
A. TO FLORIDA? WITH LANDERS & PARSONS.
Q. AND WHAT IS THAT?
A. LOOKING AT EUTROPHICATION MODELING IN LAKE
OKEECHOBEE.
Q. WHO IS LANDERS & PARSONS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 69
A. A LAW FIRM IN TALLAHASSEE.
Q. AND ON WHOSE BEHALF DID THEY CONTACT YOU?
A. THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
Q. AND YOU'RE BEING PAID BY THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE
DIRECTLY?
A. I WAS PAID---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---YEAH.
Q. THAT'S FINISHED?
A. THAT'S FINISHED.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW MUCH WAS THAT CONTRACT?
A. THAT MUST HAVE BEEN ABOUT EIGHTY THOUSAND
($80,000.00).
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE ASSIGNMENT THERE?
A. WAS TO EVALUATE EUTROPHICATION MODELS IN
DESCRIBING OR SIMULATING EUTROPHICATION IN LAKE
OKEECHOBEE.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY "EVALUATE," YOU MEAN YOU WERE LOOKING
AT OTHER PEOPLE'S MODELS?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. WHOSE MODELS WERE YOU LOOKING AT?
A. WE LOOKED AT MODELS THAT HAD BEEN PROPOSED BY
SCIENTISTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND THE
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 70
Q. OKAY. WAS THIS PART OF ANY PARTICULAR PROCEEDING,
LEGAL OR ADMINISTRATIVE OR LEGISLATIVE WORK YOU
WERE DOING?
A. IT RELATED TO THE USE OF A MODEL TO SET PHOSPHORUS
LIMITS ON THE LAKE.
Q. SOMEBODY WAS TRYING TO SET PHOSPHORUS LIMITS ON
THE LAKE AND HAD COME UP WITH A MODEL?
A. THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AS FAR AS I KNOW,
HAD SET PHOSPHORUS LIMITS ON THE LAKE ON THE BASIS
OF USE OF A MODEL.
Q. AND YOUR JOB WAS TO, IN EFFECT, CRITICIZE OR
EVALUATE THAT MODEL?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR ULTIMATE CONCLUSION?
WITNESS: I GUESS I NEED TO -- SOME
ADVICE HERE. VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING I---
MR. RUSSELL: WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT
IT'S -- I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT, BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU'RE
GETTING INTO AREAS THAT YOU DIDN'T TESTIFY AS
AN EXPERT OR WEREN'T HIRED AS A TESTIFYING
EXPERT, THEN, IT WOULD BE PRIVILEGED. I
DON'T KNOW---
WITNESS: WELL, EVERYTHING I DID FOR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 71
THEM HAD "PRIVILEGED" AND "CONFIDENTIAL" ON
THE TOP.
MR. RUSSELL: WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT --
EVERYTHING -- EVERY PAPER THAT COMES OUT
HAS -- LET'S TAKE A BREAK FOR A MINUTE.
MR. REID: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
MR. REID: OKAY, BACK ON THE RECORD.
WHAT'S THE ANSWER?
MR. RUSSELL: I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT THE
WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER ANY OF THE QUESTIONS
INVOLVING SPECIFICS OF THE -- OTHER THAN THE
GENERAL INFORMATION HE'S ALREADY GIVEN,
BECAUSE IT'S -- HE WAS HIRED AS A
NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT BY OUR CLIENT AND IT
GETS INTO AN AREA OF WORK PRODUCT.
MR. REID: OKAY. CERTIFY THE QUESTION,
PLEASE.
M