STATE OF FLORIDA
DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF )
FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural )
Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038
ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039
WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040
)
and )
)
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; )
UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )
) ______________________
and )
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION
ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, )
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and ) OF
HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
) DR. KENNETH H. RECKHOW
Petitioners, ) ______________________
)
vs. )
)
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an Agency of the State )
of Florida, )
)
Respondent, )
)
and )
)
MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF )
FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF )
AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF )
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and the )
FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, )
)
Intervenors. )
___________________________________)
AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA
APRIL 8-9, 1993
REPORTED BY: PAMELA S. LILES
CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 2
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PETITIONERS: SUGARCANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE
MR. RICHARD A. RUSSELL OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC.
PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK AND WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC.
ONE BISCAYNE TOWER MS. DONNA H. STINSON
SUITE 3636 HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314
TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000
TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500
FOR RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: FOR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MR. THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD MANAGEMENT DISTRICT:
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY MR. R. BENJAMINE REID
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH
155 SOUTH MIAMI AVENUE & KAUFMAN, LTD.
SUITE 627 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33130 CENTER
100 S.E. SECOND STREET
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131
TELEPHONE: (305) 536-4425 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050
FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY:
MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN
KING, WALKER, LAMBE
& CRABTREE
3708 MAYFAIR STREET
POST OFFICE BOX 51549
DURHAM, N.C. 27717
TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 3
T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X
DEPONENT - DR. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW - 4/8-9/93
EXAMINATION: PAGES
BY MR. REID 4-245
BY MR. FITZGERALD 245-308
-------------------------------------------------------
E X H I B I T S I N D E X
NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED
(EXHIBITS NUMBER #1 - #25 WERE MARKED
DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF
DR. KENNETH H. RECKHOW, APRIL 8-9, 1993.)
-------------------------------------------------------
SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT 309
CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER 310
†††††††††匠䝉䅎啔䕒倠䝁⁅但⁒䕄佐䕎呎††††††††††††㌠㤰††††††††††䕃呒䙉䍉呁佉⁎䙏䌠問呒删偅剏䕔⁒††††††††††ㄳരഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 4
STIPULATIONS
ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, THE DEPOSITION OF DR. KENNETH
HOWLAND RECKHOW MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND
12:28 P.M. ON APRIL 8, 1993, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800
HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE EXECUTIVE BOARDROOM, DURHAM,
NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE PAMELA S. LILES, A
NOTARY PUBLIC.
THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT
OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED.
- - - - - - - - - - -
WHEREUPON,
KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW, Ph.D.,
HAVING FIRST BEEN DULY SWORN,
WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED
AS FOLLOWS:
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID:
Q. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME?
A. FULL NAME?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW.
Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR ADDRESS?
A. IT'S 2917 WADE ROAD, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA.
Q. WHAT DID YOU SAY YOUR MIDDLE NAME WAS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 5
A. HOWLAND.
Q. OH, HOWLAND. I THOUGHT YOU SAID ALLEN.
A. YEAH.
Q. AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE "H" WAS FOR. OKAY, BY
WHOM ARE YOU EMPLOYED?
A. DUKE UNIVERSITY.
Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR TITLE?
A. I'M AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT AND ALSO IN CIVIL AND ENVIRONMENTAL
ENGINEERING AND ALSO IN THE INSTITUTE OF
STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES.
Q. OKAY. SO, I CAN UNDERSTAND BETTER HOW YOU FIT IN,
CAN YOU -- I WANT YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
HOW DUKE IS ORGANIZED. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT A
SCHOOL, A DEPARTMENT, AND AN INSTITUTE. SO, CAN
YOU START AT THE TOP AND WORK DOWN?
A. SURE, AS BEST I KNOW. AND YOU MIGHT CORRECT ME
OR ADD, RALPH. DUKE IS ORGANIZED ON THE BASIS OF
SCHOOLS, WHICH MIGHT BE THOUGHT OF AS COLLEGES,
AND COLLEGE -- OR SCHOOL OF ARTS AND SCIENCES,
ENGINEERING, ENVIRONMENT, LAW, BUSINESS, ARE AMONG
THOSE, DIVINITY. SO, SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT IS
WHERE MY PRIMARY APPOINTMENT IS. AND ALL OF MY
SALARY COMES THROUGH THE SCHOOL OF THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 6
ENVIRONMENT. THE DEPARTMENT OF CIVIL ENGINEERING
IS IN THE SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING, AND I HAVE A
JOINT APPOINTMENT WITH THAT DEPARTMENT. WE HAVE
NO DEPARTMENTS IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION
SCIENCES IS YET ANOTHER STRUCTURE, SAY, LIKE THE
WETLAND CENTER IS A -- CENTERS ARE STRUCTURES.
EXACTLY HOW THAT FITS IN, I HAVE TO SAY, I DON'T
KNOW. IT'S THROUGH THE PROVOST'S OFFICE, AS FAR
AS I UNDERSTAND.
Q. OKAY. WELL, IF YOU'RE TAKING UNDERGRADUATE
COURSES IN STATISTICS, WHICH SCHOOL WOULD YOU BE
IN?
A. YOU WOULD -- AS AN UNDERGRADUATE, YOU WOULD EITHER
BE IN TRINITY COLLEGE, ARTS AND SCIENCES, OR IN
ENGINEERING.
Q. OKAY. AND ASSUMING YOU GET TO THE GRADUATE LEVEL
IN STATISTICS, WHERE WOULD YOU FALL?
A. YOU WOULD BE IN THE INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND
DECISION SCIENCES IN---
Q. OKAY. SO IT---
A. ---PROBABLY THROUGH THE GRADUATE SCHOOL OF ARTS
AND SCIENCES.
Q. AND IT'S, IN EFFECT, A STAND-ALONE ENTITY?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 7
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE INSTITUTE OF
STATISTICS? WHAT IS THAT PERSON CALLED?
A. MIKE WEST IS CALLED A "HEAD," NOT A "CHAIR."
Q. OKAY. THE HEAD OF THE INSTITUTE.
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU MENTIONED A CENTER A MOMENT
AGO---
A. UH-HUH.
Q. ---WHERE DOES A CENTER FIT INTO ALL OF THIS?
A. WELL, CENTERS ARE FORMALLY -- CENTERS THAT HAVE
BEEN FORMALLY IDENTIFIED AS CENTERS BY DUKE
UNIVERSITY, AS FAR AS I KNOW, CAN EXIST IN ANY
OF THESE ENTITIES -- SCHOOLS, DEPARTMENTS,
INSTITUTES -- AND OFTEN ARE SET UP TO BRING IN
FACULTY ACROSS, OR FROM OTHER DEPARTMENTS THAN THE
HOST DEPARTMENT.
Q. NOW, YOU MENTIONED THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. WHEN WAS THAT CREATED?
A. OH, GEE, THREE YEARS AGO.
Q. OKAY. AND, IF I WERE DRAWING A LITTLE DOTTED
LINE, HOW WOULD THAT RELATE TO THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 8
A. THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT HAS SEVERAL CENTERS,
AND THE WETLAND CENTER IS ONE CENTER WITHIN THE
SCHOOL.
Q. NOW, ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY
DO?
A. ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR,
I'M INVOLVED IN TEACHING; ADVISING STUDENTS;
ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIVITIES SUCH AS SERVING ON
COMMITTEES; ADMISSIONS AND AWARDS COMMITTEE;
MEETING WITH STUDENTS.
Q. OKAY. IN A TYPICAL ACADEMIC YEAR, WHAT WOULD YOUR
TEACHING LOAD BE?
A. A COURSE A SEMESTER, PLUS A SEMINAR.
Q. IS THAT WHAT YOU'D CALL A NORMAL TEACHING LOAD AT
DUKE?
A. THAT'S A NORMAL TEACHING LOAD IN THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT. I BELIEVE IT'S NORMAL AND TYPICAL OF
MOST DEPARTMENTS.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT ARE YOU TEACHING THIS SEMESTER?
A. DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS.
Q. TELL ME WHAT THAT IS.
A. THAT INVOLVES STATISTICAL METHODS, TO SOME DEGREE,
AND THE SCIENCE OF DECISION THEORY, HOW WE MAKE
DECISIONS UNDER UNCERTAINTY.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 9
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE RELATED TO THE INSTITUTE OF
STATISTICS?
A. IT COULD BE, BUT IT IS NOT.
Q. OKAY. IT'S JUST A -- IS IT AN UNDERGRADUATE
COURSE?
A. NO, IT'S A GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL COURSE WITHIN
THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT SEMINAR ARE YOU TEACHING THIS
SEMESTER?
A. I'M NOT. MY SEMINAR WAS GIVEN IN THE FALL.
Q. OKAY. GIVE ME AN IDEA, GOING BACK OVER THE LAST
FEW YEARS, OF SOME OF THE COURSES THAT YOU'VE
TAUGHT.
A. THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, I'VE TAUGHT DECISION
THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS IN THE SPRING, WATER
QUALITY MANAGEMENT AS A COURSE IN THE FALL, AND
WATER QUALITY MODELING AS A SEMINAR IN THE FALL.
Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S BEEN FOR HOW MANY YEARS, WOULD
YOU SAY?
A. OH, FIVE, SIX YEARS.
Q. THE WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, WOULD THAT BE A
GRADUATE-LEVEL COURSE?
A. YEAH. THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT, UP UNTIL
THIS FALL, HAS ONLY BEEN FOR GRADUATE AND
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 10
PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS. NOW, PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS
ARE NOT UNLIKE MBA STUDENTS IN THAT THEY ARE
POST-UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE PURSUING A PROFESSIONAL
DEGREE THAT TRAINS THEM TO PRACTICE THE PROFESSION
OF ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES.
Q. AND I ASSUME THE MODELING COURSE WOULD ALSO BE FOR
GRADUATE OR PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS?
A. YES.
Q. DO YOU -- IN YOUR DECISION THEORY AND RISK
ANALYSIS COURSE, DO YOU HAVE A STANDARD TEXTBOOK
THAT YOU USE?
A. YES. THE LAST TWO YEARS, I HAVE USED A COURSE --
A TEXT BY VON WINTERFELDT AND EDWARDS ENTITLED
DECISION ANALYSIS AND BEHAVIORAL RESEARCH.
Q. VON WINTERFELDT?
A. VON WINTERFELDT, YES.
Q. AND ELLIS?
A. NO. VON WINTERFELDT AND EDWARDS.
Q. EDWARDS, I'M SORRY. OKAY. AND WHAT TEXT DO YOU
USE IN THE WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT COURSE?
A. THE LAST TWO YEARS, I HAVE NOT USED A TEXT.
Q. OKAY. WHAT HAVE YOU USED FOR COURSE MATERIALS?
A. IN ALL MY COURSES, I HAVE ALL MY LECTURE NOTES
PHOTOCOPIED AND HAND THOSE -- OR ACTUALLY HAVE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 11
THOSE SOLD BY AN ORGANIZATION THAT PROVIDES COURSE
PACKS FOR UNIVERSITIES.
Q. WHAT'S THE NAME OF THAT COURSE -- OF THAT
ORGANIZATION?
A. I MAY -- I HAVE TO SAY I CAN'T RECALL. THEY'RE
LOCATED IN RALEIGH. THEY USED TO GO UNDER THE
NAME "UNLIMITED POTENTIAL." NOW, THEY MAY STILL
USE THAT NAME. NAME COULD BE OBTAINED THROUGH THE
BOOKSTORE.
Q. CAN STUDENTS BUY THIS COURSE MATERIAL THROUGH THE
BOOKSTORE AT DUKE?
A. YES, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. I HAVE THE COPIER COPY
AND BIND THE NOTES, AND THEN THEY ARE SOLD TO THE
BOOKSTORE.
Q. AND YOU'VE BEEN USING THESE FOR THE LAST TWO
YEARS, YOU SAY?
A. WELL, IN WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, I HAVE NOT USED
A TEXT FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS. IN ALL OF MY
COURSES, I'VE USED THE COURSE PACKS FOR, OH, THE
LAST FOUR OR FIVE, SIX YEARS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE -- MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO
WHAT TEXT DID YOU USE IN WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT?
A. A TEXT BY TCHOBANOGLOUS AND SCHROEDER ENTITLED,
WATER QUALITY.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 12
Q. CAN YOU SPELL THE FIRST ONE FOR THE---
A. YEAH. T-C-H-O-B-A-N-O-G-L-O-U-S.
Q. SAY THAT AGAIN, T-C -- I RAN---
A. T-C-H-O-B-A-N-O-G-L-O-U-S, I THINK.
Q. AND SCHROEDER?
A. SCHROEDER, S-C-H-R-O-E-D-E-R.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR MODELING SEMINAR, DO YOU --
YOU USE YOUR COURSE MATERIALS, I ASSUME.
A. I HAVE A TEXT AND I'VE USED THE COURSE LECTURE---
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE TEXT?
A. THE TEXT IS ENGINEERING APPROACHES FOR LAKE
MANAGEMENT, VOLUME 2.
Q. BY WHOM?
A. RECKHOW -- OR CHAPRA AND RECKHOW.
Q. OKAY. I ASSUME THAT'S YOU.
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE DECISION
THEORY COURSE FOR A LITTLE BIT.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. IF YOU WERE GOING TO DESCRIBE THIS COURSE TO
SOMEBODY WHO WAS INTERESTED IN TAKING IT, HOW
WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT?
A. A PROSPECTIVE STUDENT -- SOMEONE WHO HAS SOME
ACADEMIC TRAINING---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 13
Q. RIGHT. WHO---
A. ---I WOULD DESCRIBE IT AS A COURSE THAT MAKES USE
OF BASIC PROBABILITY AND STATISTICS AND PROVIDES A
FOUNDATION IN DECISION THEORY, THE THEORY OF
DECISION MAKING UNDER UNCERTAINTY, BUT, IN
ADDITION, PROVIDES A NUMBER OF APPLICATIONS OF
DECISION THEORY, CALLED DECISION ANALYSIS, AS
TO HOW WE TAKE UNCERTAIN SCIENCE AND VALUE
JUDGMENTS TO HELP GUIDE DECISION MAKING UNDER
UNCERTAINTY.
Q. NOW, ARE YOU TAKING ACTUAL DATA AND LOOKING AT IT
FOR ITS CREDIBILITY?
A. IN THE COURSE?
Q. YEAH.
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. I THINK OF -- IN MY MIND, I THINK OF TWO --
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT DECISION MAKING,
THERE'S THIS BODY OF WORK WHERE YOU -- SOMETHING
CALLED DECISION TREES AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.
A. YES, THAT'S PART OF IT. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. DO YOU -- IS THAT PART OF YOURS, AS WELL?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. NOW, I DON'T THINK OF THAT AS BEING PARTICULARLY
MATHEMATICAL.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 14
A. NO, NO.
Q. SO, PART OF YOUR COURSE WORK IS -- PART OF YOUR
WORK IS -- WOULD BE IN DEALING WITH SUBJECTIVE
EVALUATION.
A. JUDGMENTAL PROBABILITIES AND PREFERENCES, WHICH
ARE VERY LIKELY TO REFLECT JUDGMENTS.
Q. OKAY. DOES PART OF IT ALSO DEAL WITH MATHEMATICAL
APPROACHES TO THIS SAME SUBJECT MATTER?
A. PART OF THE CLASSES I TEACH?
Q. YES. RIGHT.
A. TO A LIMITED DEGREE, YES.
Q. IN TERMS OF FIVE PERCENT SIGNIFICANT PROBABILITY
AND THINGS LIKE THAT? DOES THAT -- YOU GET INTO
THAT AREA IN THIS COURSE?
A. NO. THAT WOULD -- THAT'S -- ALTHOUGH, WE HAVE IN
THE PAST -- HYPOTHESIS TESTING, YOU'RE REFERRING
TO?
Q. RIGHT.
A. AND I HAVEN'T IN THE LAST TWO YEARS. IT IS
CONSIDERED ONE OF THE QUANTITATIVE COURSES IN THE
SCHOOL THAT PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS CHOOSE FROM.
Q. NOW, WHAT IS CONSIDERED A QUANTITATIVE, YOUR
COURSE?
A. THE DECISION THEORY AND RISK ANALYSIS COURSE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 15
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN, IT'S CONSIDERED A
QUANTITATIVE COURSE?
A. WELL, THERE ARE CERTAIN COURSES THAT ARE
IDENTIFIED IN A SET OF COURSE OPTIONS THAT ARE
MORE QUANTITATIVE IN NATURE, AND IT IS ONE OF
THOSE. IT IS NOT HEAVILY MATHEMATICAL, THOUGH I
DO ASSIGN PROBLEM SETS. SO, THERE ARE
CALCULATIONS MADE IN THE COURSE OF THE COURSE.
Q. OKAY. HAS ANY OF THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE IN
THIS CASE BEEN A TYPE MATERIAL THAT YOU WOULD HAVE
COVERED IN THIS CLASS?
A. BY "IN THIS CASE," YOU MEAN?
Q. THE EVERGLADES LITIGATION.
A. I'M TRYING TO THINK. NOT THIS YEAR. LAST YEAR, I
TALKED ABOUT DECISION MAKING IN THE EVERGLADES
JUST IN A VERY GENERAL SENSE. JUST---
Q. OKAY. MAYBE MY QUESTION WASN'T CLEAR. WE'LL GET
INTO THIS LATER IN TERMS OF WHAT YOUR ASSIGNMENT
HAS BEEN IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. WHEN I SAY
"THIS CASE," DO YOU UNDERSTAND I MEAN THE SWIM
CHALLENGE AND THE ENTIRE RESTORATION ISSUES
RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING IN TERMS OF, YES.
UH-HUH (YES).
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 16
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT I'M INTERESTED TO
KNOW IS, HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK IN THIS CASE THAT
YOU COULD POINT TO SOMETHING IN YOUR COURSE
THAT---
A. OH, I SEE. I LOOKED THE OTHER WAY, YEAH.
Q. ---YOU DRAW UPON -- THE PRINCIPLES. YOU LOOKED
THE OTHER WAY, EXACTLY.
A. YEAH. CERTAIN -- NOT FOR THE PROJECT THAT
INVOLVES THIS GROUP. NOW, YOU -- SO, NO, NOT FOR
THAT -- THIS PROJECT THAT SONG AND I ARE WORKING
ON.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAVEN'T USED A DECISION TREE
ANALYSIS, FOR INSTANCE, ON ANY EVERGLADES RELATED
SUBJECT?
A. WELL, YOU'RE BROADENING IT BECAUSE---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---WITH REGARDS TO THE WORK THAT I'M DOING FOR THE
SUGAR CANE COOPERATIVE, THE ANSWER IS NO.
Q. WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE THE ANSWER YES? YOU'RE
ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT SOMETHING.
A. WELL, YOU ARE PROBABLY AWARE THAT I AM ALSO
WORKING FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT.
Q. RIGHT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 17
A. OKAY. AND IN THE CONTEXT OF EXPERIENCES WITH THE
DISTRICT, PRIOR TO BEING INVOLVED IN THIS
PARTICULAR WORK, TO ANY DEGREE, I'VE THOUGHT OF
THE EVERGLADES ISSUE IN A DECISION ANALYTIC
CONTEXT AND DID LAY OUT A FRAMEWORK FOR THINKING
ABOUT THE EVERGLADES PROBLEM IN THE DECISION
ANALYSIS CLASS.
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE REFLECTED IN YOUR NOTES THAT
THE STUDENTS CAN BUY?
A. NO, IT WASN'T. I GAVE A HANDOUT. IT WASN'T THIS
YEAR, BECAUSE I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT IT THIS YEAR AT
ALL. IT WAS LAST YEAR ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH THE
SEMESTER. WHAT I OFTEN DO IS REALIZE THAT THE
STUDENTS ARE IN NEED OF REINFORCEMENT IN A
PARTICULAR AREA, AND I'LL CHANGE THE LECTURE, AND
I DID THAT LAST YEAR. AND, SO, I ADDED A HANDOUT
AND USED THAT EXAMPLE OF DECISION MAKING IN THE
EVERGLADES AS A CASE STUDY.
Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A PARAGRAPH ABOUT WHAT THE HANDOUT
REFLECTED?
A. YEAH. IT WAS VERY GENERAL. IT SIMPLY IDENTIFIED
THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM, THAT THERE WAS WATER
AND NUTRIENT COMING FROM THE NORTH AND FLOWING
INTO THE EVERGLADES. AND THERE WAS CONCERN WITH
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 18
REGARDS TO WHAT THE PHOSPHORUS LEVEL SHOULD BE IN
THE WATER FLOWING INTO THE EVERGLADES. AND I
DEVELOPED WHAT'S CALLED AN OBJECTIVES HIERARCHY
FOR THAT ANALYSIS, WHICH IDENTIFIES -- IT'S A
GRAPHICAL DEVICE THAT LOOKS LIKE A FLOWCHART, IN A
SENSE, TOP TO BOTTOM, AND HELPS A DECISION ANALYST
IDENTIFY SPECIFIC OBJECTIVES IN A PROBLEM. BEYOND
THAT, I CAN'T TELL YOU, BECAUSE I JUST DON'T
REMEMBER THE DETAILS. THE PURPOSE OF THE
EXERCISE, THOUGH, WAS TO CONVINCE STUDENTS THAT
THE MATERIAL THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE
CLASS, WHICH APPEARED TO BE SOMEWHAT ABSTRACT FROM
REAL WORLD PROBLEMS, MIGHT HELP US THINK ABOUT
REAL WORLD PROBLEMS; SO, I JUST BEGAN THE THINKING
ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR PROBLEM. THE SPECIFICS THAT
WE DISCUSSED, I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT YOUR DECISION THEORY, OF
COURSE.
A. YEAH, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT HANDOUT STILL AVAILABLE?
A. I WOULD THINK -- PROBABLY SOMEWHERE IN MY NOTES,
YEAH.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR WATER
QUALITY MANAGEMENT COURSE, WHAT DO YOU COVER,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 19
GENERALLY, IN THAT COURSE?
A. THAT'S A BROAD COURSE INTENDED FOR BEGINNING
STUDENTS IN THE PROGRAM. AND IT COVERS AN
INTRODUCTION TO SCIENCE OF CONCERN TO SURFACE
WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT, SOME BASIC BIOLOGY AND
CHEMISTRY CONCEPTS. IT MOVES TO A DISCUSSION AS
TO HOW LAND USE AFFECTS WATER QUALITY, POLLUTANTS
THAT MIGHT BE THOUGHT TO RUN OFF VARIOUS LAND USE
TYPES AND CATEGORIES. IT THEN MOVES TO AN
OVERVIEW OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS RELEVANT TO
SURFACE WATER QUALITY, AND THEN GOES INTO A FINAL,
FAIRLY LENGTHY SET OF TOPICS DEALING WITH WATER
QUALITY SIMULATION MODELING. THIS IS ALL AT A
VERY BASIC LEVEL.
Q. OKAY. IS THERE ANYTHING, SPECIFICALLY, IN YOUR
COURSE THAT YOU'VE DRAWN ON IN YOUR WORK IN THIS
CASE -- IN THAT PARTICULAR COURSE?
A. OH, IN THIS? WITH REGARDS AGAIN TO THE SUGAR CANE
COOPERATIVE AND THIS EXERCISE WITH SONG, NO; AND
WITH REGARDS TO THE EVERGLADES, NO.
Q. OKAY. NOW, YOUR LAST COURSE WAS ACTUALLY A
SEMINAR, MODELING. TELL ME WHAT YOU COVER IN THAT
COURSE OR THAT SEMINAR.
A. IN THAT COURSE, WE -- I START OUT BY GIVING A
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 20
SERIES OF LECTURES DEALING WITH WHAT'S CALLED
MECHANISTIC MODELING; MODELS THAT ARE BASED ON
SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING RELATING POLLUTANT INPUT
TO WATER QUALITY, PARTICULARLY, IN LAKES, BUT ALSO
IN RIVERS. AND, IN ADDITION, I TALK ABOUT
STATISTICAL ISSUES, NOTABLY, TREND ANALYSIS. AND
THEN, THAT FOLLOWS -- THAT'S FOLLOWED BY STUDENT
PRESENTATION -- STUDENT SEMINARS ON TOPICS THAT
THEY CHOOSE TO WORK ON.
Q. IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE YEARS, HAVE ANY STUDENTS
WORKED SPECIFICALLY ON TOPICS RELATING TO THE
EVERGLADES SITUATION?
A. YES. CONRAD LAMON, A Ph.D. STUDENT OF MINE, WHO
WORKED DURING THE SUMMER FOR THE SOUTH FLORIDA
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, USED A MODELING TOOL
CALLED "STELLA" TO LOOK AT -- I BELIEVE LOOK AT
PHOSPHORUS AND WATER MOVEMENT IN WCA-2A.
Q. "STELLA" -- IS THAT AN ACRONYM?
A. I CAN'T RECALL.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THIS PARTICULAR
EXERCISE?
A. IT WAS MAINLY TO GAIN EXPERIENCE IN A MODELING
APPROACH THAT GAVE HIM FAMILIARITY WITH THE
TECHNIQUE ON THE MACINTOSH, STELLA, AND EXPERIENCE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 21
IN WRITTEN AND ORAL PRESENTATION.
Q. OKAY. DID THAT ULTIMATELY COME TO ANY FORMAL
PRESENTATION IN WRITING OR---
A. HE WROTE A FINAL REPORT FOR THE CLASS, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. AND, SO, YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT, FOR
INSTANCE?
A. NO. NO.
Q. OKAY. WAS THERE ANYTHING IN HIS WORK THAT
YOU HAVE USED OR RELIED ON OR IN ANY WAY
CONSIDERED?
A. NO. NO.
Q. WHY IS THAT?
A. IT'S JUST, I GUESS, A COUPLE OF REASONS. I WASN'T
THINKING, AT THE TIME, OF GOING THROUGH IT FOR THE
PURPOSE OF GLEANING THINGS OUT FOR THIS WORK. AND
MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT DIDN'T LEAD TO ANYTHING
THAT WOULD BE OF VALUE IN THOSE TERMS. IT WAS A
GOOD EDUCATIONAL EXERCISE FOR HIM.
Q. UH-HUH (YES). WHAT WAS HIS HYPOTHESIS OR WHAT WAS
HE TRYING TO FIND OUT?
A. I CAN'T RECALL, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE WE SET IT UP
IN TERMS OF AN HYPOTHESIS. I LOOKED AT IT FOR
HIM AS AN EXPERIENCE IN WORKING WITH A MODELING
TOOL.
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DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 22
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU USE
THE TERM "MODEL"?
A. I TEND TO USE IT AS HAVING AN IMPLIED MATHEMATICAL
IN FRONT OF IT. AND I TEND TO REFER TO A MODEL
THAT SIMULATES OR DESCRIBES, AS OPPOSED TO ONE
THAT OPTIMIZES. AND, THEREFORE, AS A RULE, WHEN I
USE THE WORD "MODEL," I'M REFERRING TO AN EQUATION
OR SET OF EQUATIONS THAT ARE USED TO DESCRIBE
SOMETHING, SUCH AS THE -- THE POLLUTANT
TRANSPORTING FEE.
Q. NOW, YOU SAID THAT THE -- YOU LOOKED AT MODELS
THAT SIMULATE RATHER THAN OPTIMIZE.
A. YES.
Q. WHAT -- DESCRIBE FOR ME A MODEL THAT WOULD
OPTIMIZE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A. BY THAT, I MEAN A MODEL THAT MIGHT BE USED TO
MINIMIZE THE COST OF WASTEWATER TREATMENT SUBJECT
TO A CONSTRAINT, SUCH AS ALLOWABLE DISCHARGE.
Q. OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF EACH THAT
WOULD DEMONSTRATE THE DIFFERENCE?
A. YES. A SIMULATION MODEL IS ONE THAT MIGHT HAVE AS
INPUT TO THE MODEL POLLUTANT LOADING AND MIGHT
PREDICT POLLUTANT CONCENTRATION IN A WATER BODY
OF INTEREST. AND, THEREFORE, IT MIGHT BE USED TO
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 23
EVALUATE SCENARIOS LEADING TO VARIOUS POLLUTANT
LOADS.
Q. SO, THAT YOU WOULD ASSUME A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
WHATEVER POLLUTANT YOU'RE DEALING WITH WAS
INTRODUCED INTO A BODY OF WATER?
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. WOULD THAT BE IN TERMS OF A LOAD OR IN TERMS OF
CONCENTRATION?
A. IT COULD BE EITHER.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN, YOUR MODEL WOULD BE A SERIES OF
EQUATIONS THAT WOULD---
A. OR A SINGLE EQUATION.
Q. ---OR A SINGLE EQUATION, THAT WOULD TELL YOU WHAT
YOU CAN EXPECT, WHERE, AT THE END -- AT THE OTHER
END OF THE BODY OF WATER GOING OUT OR---
A. IT DEPENDS ON THE MODEL. IT COULD BE WITHIN THE
WATER BODY AT THE OUTLET. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE
MODEL.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT -- HOW, THEN, WOULD YOU USE THIS
MODEL? OR, AT THIS POINT, YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED
IN USING IT; YOU'RE JUST INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT
WHAT HAPPENS. IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?
A. WELL, IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE SITUATION. IF I WAS
TO USE THE MODEL, I MIGHT USE IT TO EVALUATE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 24
VARIOUS SCENARIOS OF POLLUTANT INPUT THAT MIGHT BE
ASSOCIATED WITH VARIOUS MANAGEMENT PLANS.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU'D PLAY AROUND WITH THE LOAD GOING
IN PERHAPS OR---
A. YES.
Q. ---SOME OF THE CONDITIONS THAT EXIST IN THE BODY
OF WATER---
A. YES.
Q. ---TO FIND OUT HOW THOSE THINGS MIGHT AFFECT THE
RESULT?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. NOW, GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A MODEL THAT
WOULD OPTIMIZE.
A. A MODEL THAT WOULD OPTIMIZE OFTEN INVOLVES, AS I
MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO, MAXIMIZING OR MINIMIZING
THIS -- THE EXAMPLE I GAVE A MOMENT AGO CONCERNED
USING IT TO MINIMIZE COSTS; IDENTIFY, PERHAPS --
IF WE WERE USING IT FOR, LET'S SAY, DESIGN OF A
WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT, DETERMINING WHAT
DESIGN FACTORS -- WATER LOAD, POLLUTANT LOAD;
OTHER DESIGN FACTORS THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE -- TO
IDENTIFY THE DESIGN FACTORS THAT WOULD LEAD TO A
MINIMUM COST MANAGEMENT SOLUTION, OFTEN SUBJECT TO
CONSTRAINTS; AND CONSTRAINTS COULD BE ALLOWABLE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 25
DISCHARGE CONCENTRATIONS OF CONTAMINANTS OF
CONCERN.
Q. SO, YOU'D PLUG THAT IN, IN EFFECT, AS A GIVEN OR
AS A REQUIREMENT---
A. YES.
Q. ---FOR THE END?
A. YOU HAVE TO MEET THESE CONCENTRATIONS OF
BIOCHEMICAL OXYGEN DEMAND, FOR EXAMPLE.
Q. AND THEN -- SO, THEN, YOU WOULD -- YOU WOULD PUT
IN WHAT'S COMING IN AT THE OTHER -- AT THE
BEGINNING AND DEAL WITH WAYS TO MEET THE
CONCLUSION THAT YOU WANT TO REACH?
A. WITH THE OBJECTIVE OF -- IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE
THAT I SET OUT -- MINIMIZE -- IDENTIFYING A DESIGN
THAT MINIMIZES COST.
Q. HOW LONG HAVE PEOPLE BEEN USING THIS MODELING
APPROACH IN THE WATER QUALITY AREA?
A. I CAN ONLY GUESS ON THAT. SIMULATION MODELING FOR
SURFACE WATER QUALITY GOES BACK TO THE MID-20'S,
LOOKING AT DISSOLVED OXYGEN IN STREAMS.
OPTIMIZATION MODELS MAY GO BACK JUST TO THE EARLY
'60'S, BUT I'M NOT SURE.
Q. PROBABLY BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE GOT INTERESTED
IN DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, I GUESS.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 26
A. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE. IS THIS APPROACH TO
MODELING USED IN OTHER AREAS, AS WELL?
A. THE SIMULATION MODELING, YES.
Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES?
A. I'M MUCH LESS FAMILIAR---
Q. SURE.
A. ---WITH OTHER AREAS, AND I'M MORE FAMILIAR WITH
SIMULATION THAN WITH OPTIMIZATION. SIMULATION
MODELING IS USED, FOR EXAMPLE, TO DESCRIBE THE
EFFECTIVE AIR QUALITY POLLUTANT CONTROLS ON
STACKS -- ON EMITTERS, ON AMBIENT AIR
CONCENTRATIONS AT SOME POINT OF INTEREST.
Q. CAN YOU THINK OF ONE TOTALLY OUTSIDE THE POLLUTION
AREA?
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO THE QUESTION
ON THE GROUNDS OF RELEVANCE. YOU CAN
ANSWER.
MR. REID: THOSE OBJECTIONS ARE
PRESERVED. GO AHEAD.
A. WHAT---
MS. STINSON: YOU MAY ANSWER.
WITNESS: I MAY ANSWER? OKAY.
MS. STINSON: IF YOU CAN.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 27
MR. REID: OBVIOUSLY, I DON'T WANT
HIM TO ANSWER IF -- I'LL JUST SAY THIS FOR
THE REST OF THE DEPOSITION -- IF YOU DON'T
KNOW, DON'T ANSWER.
WITNESS: I---
MS. STINSON: YOU'RE NOT REQUIRED TO
SPECULATE---
A. OKAY. WELL, I GUESS I---
MS. STINSON: ---IF YOU DON'T KNOW.
WITNESS: OKAY.
A. ---I'M SURE THEY ARE USED. I JUST -- I HAVE NO
EXPERIENCE.
Q. YOU CAN'T NAME---
A. NO, I CAN'T IDENTIFY SPECIFICALLY.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE ALTERNATIVE TO SOMEONE IN
YOUR POSITION TO USING THE MODELING TECHNIQUES?
A. FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
Q. FOR -- ASSUMING YOU WANT TO REACH THE SAME
CONCLUSION; FOR THE SAME REASON YOU'RE DOING
MODELING. ARE THERE OTHER ALTERNATIVE MEANS OF
REACHING THE SAME RESULT?
A. CERTAINLY.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE?
A. EXPERT JUDGMENT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 28
Q. OKAY. YOU COULD ALSO GO OUT AND JUST TAKE
SAMPLES, COULDN'T YOU?
A. WELL, THE SCENARIO THAT IT STRIKES ME A SIMULATION
MODEL IS USEFUL FOR IS PREDICTIVE AND SAMPLES
REFLECT CURRENT SITUATION OF THE PAST.
Q. ARE THERE OTHER TECHNIQUES FOR PREDICTING THE
FUTURE BESIDES MODELING?
A. EXPERT JUDGMENT, AGAIN.
Q. ASIDE FROM THAT?
A. I THINK, GIVEN THE WAY WE HAVE DEFINED MODELING AS
SIMULATION MODELING AND GIVEN THE BREADTH OF
COVERAGE OF EXPERT JUDGMENT, IT'S HARD --
IMMEDIATELY, I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING THAT WOULD
CLEARLY NOT FIT UNDER ONE CATEGORY OR THE OTHER.
Q. WHERE WOULD THINGS SUCH AS TREND ANALYSES FALL?
A. TREND ANALYSIS IS A MODELING TECHNIQUE. IT'S A
STATISTICAL TECHNIQUE. IT, GENERALLY, IS THOUGHT
OF AS RETROSPECTIVE. YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE PAST.
Q. AS A WAY TO PREDICT THE FUTURE?
A. NOT NECESSARILY.
Q. OKAY. SO HOW ABOUT A REGRESSION ANALYSIS? WOULD
THAT BE THE SAME THING?
A. NO. IT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT YOU WERE REGRESSING.
Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD YOU -- WOULD THAT -- COULD THAT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 29
BE USED AS A PREDICTIVE---
A. CERTAINLY.
Q. ---APPROACH? HOW WOULD YOU USE IT AS A PREDICTIVE
APPROACH?
A. IN MANY WAYS.
Q. IN THE WATER QUALITY CONTEXT THAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE.
A. BUT EVEN WITHIN THE WATER QUALITY CONTEXT, IN MANY
WAYS.
Q. WELL, LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR MODEL -- THE EXAMPLE
YOU GAVE ME FOR YOUR MODEL.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. IN THAT SPECIFIC SITUATION, WOULD YOU USE -- COULD
YOU USE REGRESSION ANALYSIS?
A. CERTAINLY. YOU COULD -- IF YOU HAD DATA, LET'S
SAY, ON POLLUTANT INPUT ON RESPONSE OF CONCERN AND
ON FACTORS THAT RELATE TO HOW THE POLLUTANT INPUT
IS CONVERTED INTO THE RESPONSIVE CONCERN, SAY, THE
CONCENTRATION, YOU COULD USE THOSE DATA AND
REGRESSION ANALYSIS TO FIT A MODEL TO ALLOW YOU TO
PREDICT THAT RESPONSIVE CONCERN -- THE
CONCENTRATION AS A FUNCTION OF THE INPUT AND THE
OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE IMPORTANT. AND THAT MODEL
COULD WELL BE USED IN A PREDICTIVE SENSE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 30
Q. I GUESS I'M HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING.
WHEN YOU MAKE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN JUDGMENT OR
EVALUATING THE PRESENT AND THE PAST---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---AS OPPOSED TO WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT A
MINUTE AGO IN THE MODELING, AREN'T YOU, IN EFFECT,
USING PRESENT AND PAST DATA TO---
A. THE DIFFERENCE -- YOU REFERRED---
Q. ---CREATE YOUR MODEL?
A. ---TO TREND ANALYSIS. TREND ANALYSIS IS SIMPLY
LOOKING AT A -- IF WE CONFINE IT TO ONE VARIABLE
OR SEVERAL ONE-VARIABLE ANALYSES, IT'S SIMPLY
LOOKING AT HOW LEVELS OF THAT VARIABLE HAVE
TRACKED OVER TIME. IT HAS NOTHING THAT IS
CORRELATIVE WITH REGARDS TO RELATING IT TO ANOTHER
VARIABLE.
Q. MEANING THE NEXT ONE, THE FUTURE?
A. NO, MEANING THE LOADING. IN OTHER WORDS, WE COULD
DO A TREND OF LOADING OVER TIME. WE COULD DO A
TREND OF IN-LAKE CONCENTRATION OVER TIME. WHAT
THE REGRESSION IS DOING IS LINKING THOSE TWO.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR -- STRIKE THAT.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 31
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
WITNESS: I WONDER IN ABOUT TEN OR
FIFTEEN MINUTES IF WE CAN TAKE A BREAK---
MR. REID: OKAY. SURE.
WITNESS: ---SO I CAN HAVE A SANDWICH?
MR. REID: OKAY.
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES:
Q. I'VE LOOKED AT YOUR RESUME, AND I WANTED TO ASK
YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT SOME THINGS THERE. YOUR
UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE FROM CORNELL IS LISTED AS
ENGINEERING PHYSICS. WHAT SPECIFIC AREAS DID YOU
FOCUS ON?
A. I DIDN'T FOCUS, ACTUALLY, OTHER THAN --
ENGINEERING DEGREES ARE HIGHLY STRUCTURED AND YOU
HAVE RELATIVELY FEW OPTIONS. AND I TOOK THE
STANDARD CURRICULUM IN ENGINEERING PHYSICS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO DO WITH THAT DEGREE
OR -- GO TO SCHOOL SOME MORE, OBVIOUSLY.
A. YEAH.
Q. NO, BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WERE YOU
GOING TO BUILD BUILDINGS?
A. YEAH. I DIDN'T -- I HONESTLY DIDN'T---
Q. WERE YOU GOING TO CONSTRUCT WETLANDS OR---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 32
A. ---KNOW. I WAS NOT, AT THAT TIME, TERRIBLY
THOUGHTFUL ABOUT WHERE I WAS HEADED WITH MY
PROGRAM. IT LOOKED INTERESTING, AND I WENT INTO
IT.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE ANY WORK IN YOUR UNDERGRADUATE
DEGREES THAT DEALT WITH WATER QUALITY
CONSIDERATIONS?
A. NO.
Q. ANYTHING AT ALL THAT RELATES TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING
NOW, DIRECTLY?
A. NOT DIRECTLY.
Q. OKAY. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, IT, I UNDERSTAND,
GENERALLY---
A. YEAH. IT ALL RELATES, YEAH.
Q. ---IT ALL RELATES AT SOME LEVEL, BUT---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIFICALLY.
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT LED YOU TO HARVARD INTO
ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE?
A. IN MY SENIOR YEAR AT CORNELL, FALL SEMESTER, I
REALIZED THAT ENGINEERING PHYSICS WAS NOT FOR ME
AS A CAREER. AND I WENT OVER TO THE CIVIL
ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT AND MET SOME FACULTY AND
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 33
INQUIRED ABOUT BECOMING INVOLVED WITH PROJECTS IN
THE ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES. AND WHAT STIMULATED
ME TO LOOK INTO ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES, I DON'T
RECALL. BUT I SUSPECT IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH
EARTH DAY. AND I MET A PROFESSOR, CHARLES
REVELLE, WHO WAS WORKING ON SOLID WASTE RECYCLE,
SPECIFICALLY, JUNK CARS. AND IT WAS FORTUITOUS.
HE WAS LOOKING FOR SOME HELP ON A PROJECT. AND HE
INVOLVED ME ON A PROJECT. I BECAME INTERESTED IN
IT, AND WE DEVELOPED A GOOD WORKING AND PERSONAL
RAPPORT. I DECIDED ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES WAS A
CAREER THAT I WANTED TO PURSUE OR, AT LEAST,
EXPLORE MORE. AND HE GUIDED ME IN THE DIRECTION
OF GRADUATE PROGRAMS. AND SO I APPLIED TO SEVERAL
AND CHOSE HARVARD.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN YOUR WORK FOR YOUR MASTER'S, DID
YOU DEAL WITH ANY AREAS THAT YOU NOW DEAL WITH IN
WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND WHAT YOU'RE HERE ABOUT?
A. WHEN I STARTED AT HARVARD, I INTENDED TO GO INTO
SOLID WASTE RECYCLE BECAUSE OF THAT -- BECAUSE
THAT'S WHAT I HAD BEEN EXPOSED TO. AND THE MASTER
OF SCIENCE, OR S.M. DEGREE, AT HARVARD IS HANDED
TO YOU AFTER A YEAR OF COURSE WORK; NO THESIS
REQUIREMENT. IT'S JUST -- I WAS IN A Ph.D.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 34
PROGRAM. AND THAT WAS LITERALLY IN THE MAIL AFTER
A YEAR. SO, ALL I HAD DONE WAS TAKE ONE YEAR OF
COURSES. AND I DON'T RECALL AFTER ONE YEAR THAT I
HAD ANY PARTICULAR CHANGE IN CAREER DIRECTION AT
THAT TIME.
Q. OKAY. AND, AS YOU CONTINUED, AT SOME POINT YOU
DID, I ASSUME.
A. YES, I DID. I---
Q. AND WHERE -- WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?
A. SOMETIME -- IT COULD HAVE OCCURRED IN THE SECOND
SEMESTER OF THAT FIRST YEAR. IT COULD HAVE
OCCURRED IN THE FIRST SEMESTER OF THE SECOND YEAR,
JUST AFTER THE S.M. DEGREE. I BECAME INTERESTED
IN WATER QUALITY; HAD TAKEN SOME COURSES DEALING
WITH CHEMISTRY AND BIOLOGY. AND THEN IN THE
SUMMER BETWEEN MY SECOND AND THIRD YEARS AT
HARVARD, I HAD A SUMMER JOB SUPPORTED THROUGH THE
APPALACHIAN MOUNTAIN CLUB ON LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE,
NEW HAMPSHIRE, DOING SOME WATER QUALITY SAMPLES.
AND THAT WAS QUITE INTERESTING TO ME AND REALLY
LED TO THE EMPHASIS IN WATER QUALITY.
Q. WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR IN LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE?
A. JUST BACKGROUND DATA COLLECTION THAT WOULD AID THE
REGIONAL PLANNING AGENCY, LAKES REGION PLANNING
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 35
COMMISSION, IN UNDERSTANDING SOMETHING ABOUT HOW
THE DEVELOPMENT OCCURRING IN THE LAKE'S REGION WAS
AFFECTING WATER QUALITY.
Q. AND YOU WERE BASICALLY SAMPLING? WAS THAT THE
EXTENT OF THE WORK?
A. YEAH. I WAS SAMPLING. I WAS ALSO HELPING TO
WRITE SOME NON-TECHNICAL MATERIAL ON WATER QUALITY
CONCEPTS FOR THE LAYPERSON THAT THE PLANNING
COMMISSION COULD DISTRIBUTE TO HELP EXPLAIN WHY
THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT WATER QUALITY.
Q. AND SO, WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO HARVARD DID YOU
BEGIN TO TAKE COURSES IN THE -- RELATING TO WATER
QUALITY?
A. WELL, BY THAT TIME -- THE THIRD YEAR IS REALLY THE
POINT AT WHICH YOU SWITCH FROM EMPHASIS OF COURSE
WORK TO EMPHASIS ON RESEARCH. AND SO, WHEN I CAME
BACK TO HARVARD I TOOK MY QUALIFYING EXAM FOR THE
Ph.D. AND PRESENTED AT THAT EXAM SOME MATERIAL
DEALING WITH WATER QUALITY MODELING AS THE
DIRECTION -- PROPOSED DIRECTION FOR MY
DISSERTATION.
Q. WAS THAT RELATED TO THE WORK YOU HAD DONE IN THE
SUMMER OR A DIFFERENT WORK?
A. NOT REALLY -- WELL, IN THE SENSE THAT IT DEALT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 36
WITH EUTROPHICATION. BUT THE SUMMER WORK INVOLVED
FIELD STUDIES IN NON-TECHNICAL WRITING; WHEREAS,
THE DISSERTATION WAS APT TO INVOLVE STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS AND MODELING.
Q. WHAT'S EUTROPHICATION?
A. NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT.
Q. AND WHAT DREW YOU TO THAT PARTICULAR TOPIC?
A. I CAN'T RECALL EXACTLY, BUT I THINK, LIKELY, THE
WORK IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHICH FOCUSED ON
EUTROPHICATION; COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT THE
U.S. EPA WAS IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE NATIONAL
EUTROPHICATION SURVEY, WHICH IS A MONITORING
PROGRAM THAT WAS -- THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE EARLY
'70'S THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY MONITORING ROUGHLY
700 LAKES FOR NUTRIENT INPUTS AND NUTRIENT
CONCENTRATIONS IN THE LAKES. AND SO, THERE WAS
OPPORTUNITY TO GET AN EARLY LOOK AT A NATIONWIDE
DATA SET.
Q. WAS THERE ANY FOCUS ON PARTICULAR NUTRIENTS OR
JUST ON THE---
A. PHOSPHORUS AND, TO A MUCH LESSER DEGREE, NITROGEN.
Q. NOW, WHEN DID THE INTEREST IN PHOSPHORUS FIRST
DEVELOP THAT LED TO THIS PROGRAM THAT YOU
DESCRIBED? I MEAN, GENERALLY, NOT JUST IN YOUR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 37
LIFE BUT---
A. OH, I THINK PROBABLY EITHER THROUGH COURSE WORK AT
HARVARD OR THE STUDY IN NEW HAMPSHIRE IT BECAME
CLEAR THAT PHOSPHORUS WAS A KEY MANAGEMENT
NUTRIENT FOR CONTROLLING EUTROPHICATION IN LAKES.
Q. OKAY. WHY DID ANYBODY CARE ABOUT EUTROPHICATION
IN LAKES?
A. VALUATION IN TERMS OF PUBLIC EXPERIENCE SEEMED TO
RELATE FAIRLY HEAVILY TO AESTHETICS CONDITIONS
THAT TIED INTO EUTROPHICATION. FLOATING ALGAL
BLOOMS WERE OBJECTIONABLE AQUATIC PLANTS; CHANGES
IN FISH SPECIES, DOMINANCE. ALL OF THOSE ARE
RELATED TO NUTRIENTS AND EUTROPHICATION AND PEOPLE
TENDED TO RESPOND TO THOSE AS MUCH AS TO ANYTHING
IN EVALUATION OF WATER QUALITY.
Q. WHEN DID THIS INTEREST IN EUTROPHICATION START?
A. IN GENERAL IN---
Q. IN GENERAL.
A. ---PUBLIC?
Q. YEAH, IN THE PUBLIC.
A. I CAN'T SAY FOR CERTAIN, BUT THERE WAS, CLEARLY,
QUITE A BIT OF CONCERN ABOUT -- PUBLICLY AND
FAIRLY WIDESPREAD ABOUT THE GREAT LAKES AND LAKE
ERIE IN THE MID-'60'S. AND THERE WAS CONCERN
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 38
ABOUT LARGE LAKES IN EUROPE ABOUT THAT TIME, AS
WELL.
Q. AND THAT WAS A EUTROPHICATION PROBLEM?
A. YES, YES.
Q. AS OPPOSED TO OTHER KINDS---
A. AS FAR AS---
Q. ---OF TOXIC POLLUTANTS?
A. YES, YES.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT'S RELATED, IN PART, TO
THE AESTHETICS INVOLVED?
A. WELL, I THINK PUBLIC RESPONSE IS IN RELATION TO
AESTHETICS THAT TIE INTO EUTROPHICATION.
Q. IS IT WIDELY -- IS IT A WIDELY HELD VIEW THAT
EUTROPHICATION IS SOMETHING BAD?
A. IT'S NOT UNIVERSALLY HELD, I BELIEVE, BUT IT'S
WIDELY HELD, YES.
Q. DO YOU HOLD THAT VIEW?
A. IN A PERSONAL SENSE, NO.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. BECAUSE I HAVE EXPERIENCED DIFFERENT SITUATIONS
ENJOYING DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WATER BODIES, SOME
OF WHICH ARE NOT EUTROPHIC AND SOME OF WHICH ARE.
Q. I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
A. WHEN I WAS IN NEW ENGLAND, I ENJOYED THE WATER
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 39
QUALITY AND THE WATER BODIES BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT
EUTROPHIC. THEY WERE CLEAR, CLEAN, VERY PLEASANT
WATER BODIES. WHEN I TAUGHT AT MICHIGAN STATE, WE
LIVED ON A SHALLOW, MAN-MADE POND THAT WAS HIGHLY
EUTROPHIC; BUT IT WAS WONDERFUL FOR LARGE-MOUTH
BASS FISHING.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU BELIEVE IT'S A VALUE JUDGMENT IN
TERMS OF WHETHER EUTROPHICATION IS SOMETHING TO BE
DESIRED OR NOT.
A. YEAH, DESIRABILITY IS A VALUE JUDGMENT. THAT'S
RIGHT.
Q. AND YOUR VALUE JUDGMENT ON THAT IS THAT YOU DON'T
MIND EUTROPHICATION.
A. MY VALUE JUDGMENT IS, IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION.
Q. SO, IN SOME WATER BODIES YOU WOULD AGREE THAT
EUTROPHICATION IS A NEGATIVE AS OPPOSED TO A
POSITIVE?
A. CERTAINLY.
Q. HOW ABOUT THE EVERGLADES?
A. I DON'T HAVE A VALUE JUDGMENT THERE.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION ON THAT SITUATION
TO HAVE A VALUE JUDGMENT.
Q. JUST SO I'M CLEAR, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, THEN,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 40
YOU DON'T HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER
EUTROPHICATION OF THE EVERGLADES IS GOOD OR BAD?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. IS EUTROPHICATION OCCURRING IN THE EVERGLADES?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
MR. REID: OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU -- WE'LL
TAKE A MINUTE AND YOU CAN EAT A MOUTHFUL?
WITNESS: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID:
Q. SOMETHING I WANTED TO ASK YOU TO FOLLOW UP TO THE
LAST THING YOU SAID. IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT -- HOW DO
YOU DESCRIBE A BODY OF WATER AS BEING EUTROPHIC?
A. I DON'T HAVE A DEFINITION OTHER THAN THE
SCIENTIFIC CLASSIFICATION SCHEME THAT'S
APPROPRIATE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WOULD THAT BE?
A. I DON'T KNOW. IT VARIES FROM LOCATION TO
LOCATION.
Q. HOW IS IT DEFINED?
A. TERMS OF NUTRIENT CONCENTRATIONS; WATER CLARITY.
Q. SO -- AND NUTRIENT CONCENTRATIONS -- WOULD THAT BE
IN PARTS PER BILLION, FOR INSTANCE?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 41
A. UH-HUH (YES). YES.
Q. AND DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION OR IS THERE -- WELL,
LET'S START BROADER. IS THERE SOME, GENERALLY,
ACCEPTED LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS PARTS PER BILLION AT
WHICH SCIENTISTS WOULD SAY THAT A BODY OF WATER IS
EUTROPHIC?
A. NO.
Q. IS THAT BECAUSE IT VARIES FROM BODY TO BODY---
A. YES.
Q. ---THAT 10 PARTS PER BILLION MIGHT BE EUTROPHIC IN
ONE BODY OF WATER AND 200 PARTS PER BILLION MIGHT
BE IN ANOTHER?
A. THAT'S A POSSIBILITY, YEAH.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE EVERGLADES WAS HISTORICALLY?
A. NO.
Q. NOW, YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOUR Ph.D. -- WE SORT OF
GOT SIDETRACKED. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU DEVELOPED
AN INTEREST IN THE SUBJECT OF EUTROPHICATION.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. AND WHAT WAS ACTUALLY THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR
RESEARCH? WHAT DISSERTATION OR -- I GUESS IT'S
CALLED A DISSERTATION AT THAT LEVEL?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY.
†奅匮ഊഊ††††††††††儮†⁏䭁央ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 42
A. DEALT WITH STATISTICAL MODELS DESCRIBING
EUTROPHICATION RELATIONSHIPS.
Q. DID YOU FOCUS ON ANY PARTICULAR ACTUAL BODIES OF
WATER?
A. I USED THE NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION SURVEY DATA.
Q. SO, YOU FOCUSED ON BODIES OF WATER THROUGHOUT THE
COUNTRY?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR
DISSERTATION? I KNOW TO GET YOUR Ph.D. BUT---
A. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. ---BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD TO TELL ME WHAT YOU
WERE TRYING TO PROVE OR DISPROVE OR---
A. I WAS TRYING TO---
Q. ---FIND OUT.
A. ---LEARN A SET OF METHODS AND DEVELOP GOOD
STATISTICAL MODELS.
Q. FOR WHAT?
A. DESCRIBING THE, AS I MENTIONED, EUTROPHICATION
RELATIONSHIPS.
Q. SO YOU LOOKED AT -- I'M INTERESTED IN HOW YOU WENT
ABOUT THIS. YOU TOOK ALL THE DATA THAT YOU FOUND.
AND I ASSUME THAT DATA WOULD BE THAT CERTAIN
BODIES OF WATER HAD CERTAIN PARTS PER BILLION OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 43
PHOSPHORUS, FOR INSTANCE.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. WOULD THAT BE THE ONLY DATA YOU WERE LOOKING AT
AS---
A. WE LOOKED AT A VARIETY OF DATA ON NUTRIENT INPUTS,
WATER INPUT, EUTROPHICATION MEASURES IN LAKES; AND
LOOKED AT RELATIONSHIPS.
Q. AND WHAT DID YOU CONCLUDE?
A. WASN'T A SINGLE CONCLUSION.
Q. SURE.
A. CONCLUDED THAT THERE WERE RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE
EUTROPHICATION VARIABLES AND THESE WERE THE
RELATIONSHIPS WE FOUND.
Q. OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME OF THOSE
RELATIONSHIPS?
A. NO.
Q. OF HOW MANY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
A. GEE, I DON'T REMEMBER. WE LOOKED---
Q. HOW MANY---
A. ---AT SEVERAL, NOT---
Q. ---HOW MANY VARIABLES WERE YOU LOOKING AT?
A. I WAS LOOK -- I LOOKED AT AS MANY AS 30 OR 40
VARIABLES, AS I RECALL.
Q. AND ALL THESE ARE TRACKED BY THE NATIONAL
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 44
STATISTICS THAT YOU WERE LOOKING AT -- THOSE THAT
YOU WERE USING?
A. YEAH, THEY WERE ALL FROM THE NATIONAL
EUTROPHICATION SURVEY.
Q. YOU DIDN'T GO OUT AND DO ANY TESTING YOURSELF.
A. NO, I DIDN'T, NO.
Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT WAS THE ULTIMATE CONTRIBUTION TO
THE FIELD THAT YOU THINK YOUR DISSERTATION MADE?
A. IT PROVIDED A SET OF STATISTICAL RELATIONSHIPS
DESCRIBING THESE VARIABLES AND THE ERRORS OF
PREDICTION.
Q. CAN YOU THINK OF ANY RELATIONSHIPS? I'M JUST --
BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, SO I HAVE A BETTER
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU WERE DOING.
A. UH-HUH (YES). PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION PREDICTED
AS A FUNCTION OF PHOSPHORUS LOADING, MEAN DEPTH
WATER RESIDENCE TIME.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION THERE?
A. THERE WAS A RELATIONSHIP.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT YOUR WORK TO BE
USED BY OTHER SCIENTISTS?
A. I'D EXPECT THAT THE STATISTICAL MODELS WOULD BE
USED AS PREDICTIVE TOOLS.
Q. NOW, HAVE YOU USED ANY -- SPECIFICALLY, ANY OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 45
THAT DATA IN THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE IN THIS
CASE?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANY OF YOUR COLLEAGUES THAT ARE
WORKING ON THIS AT DUKE WETLAND CENTER HAVE USED
ANY OF YOUR WORK?
A. I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH.
Q. NOW, WHY IS THAT? THAT WOULD SEEM TO RELATE TO
ME, SO MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING.
A. I'M NOT SURE ANY OF THEM ARE AWARE OF THE NATIONAL
EUTROPHICATION SURVEY, SINCE IT WAS TWENTY YEARS
AGO. THIS DEALT WITH LAKES AND I JUST -- I DON'T
-- I HAVEN'T SHOWN IT TO THEM. I JUST DON'T KNOW
THAT THEY'D BE AWARE OF THE WORK.
Q. WOULD IT -- WOULD THE FACT THAT IT DEALT WITH
LAKES MEAN THAT IT WOULD HAVE NO APPLICATION TO
THE EVERGLADES?
A. NO, HUH-UH (NO).
Q. WHAT LEVEL OF APPLICATION DO YOU THINK IT WOULD
HAVE TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. I'M REALLY NOT SURE, BUT I JUST DON'T THINK THAT
THEY WOULD GO TO THAT LITERATURE TO ENHANCE THEIR
WORK ON THE EVERGLADES.
Q. NOW, WE'LL GET INTO IT, OBVIOUSLY, IN MORE DETAIL.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 46
YOU'RE WORKING ON A MODEL IN THIS CASE.
A. OH, IN THIS CASE WITH THE---
Q. YES.
A. ---EVER -- YES.
Q. YEAH. AND I ASSUME THE MODEL HAS SOMETHING TO DO
WITH NUTRIENTS AND OTHER VARIABLES IN A -- THAT
ARE INCLUDED IN THE EVERGLADES IN THE PROCESS OF
EUTROPHICATION.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. BUT NONE OF YOUR WORK BEFORE, DEALING WITH THE
SAME SUBJECT MATTERS IN LAKES, IS PROVIDING YOU
ANY BASIS FOR WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW?
A. IT'S PROVIDING ME WITH AN UNDERSTANDING THAT
VARIABLES SUCH AS NUTRIENT LOADING, MEAN DEPTH AND
WATER RESIDENCE TIME MIGHT BE IMPORTANT.
Q. BUT IT'S NOT TELLING YOU THAT THOSE VARIABLES
RELATE IN THE EVERGLADES THE SAME WAY THEY RELATED
IN YOUR RESEARCH OR IN THE LAKE SURVEY?
A. IT'S NOT TELLING ME THAT, NO, HUH-UH (NO). NO.
Q. BUT ARE YOU TRYING TO FIND THAT OUT OR---
A. NO, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD REFERENCE THAT WORK,
FOR EXAMPLE. I JUST THINK IT WOULD HAVE THAT
LITTLE APPLICABILITY.
Q. WHAT OTHER WORK DID YOU DO AT HARVARD THAT RELATES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 47
TO WHAT YOU'RE NOW DOING?
A. WELL, OF COURSE, AS I MENTIONED, THAT WORK --
DISSERTATION RELATES IN A VERY LIMITED DEGREE.
Q. SURE. DID ANYTHING YOU DID AT HARVARD RELATE TO
WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW, I GUESS, IS A BETTER
QUESTION?
A. I MEAN, YES, IN TERMS OF EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE
RELATED TO EVERYTHING ELSE. BUT NO, IN TERMS OF
ANY SUBSTANTIVE RELATIONSHIP.
Q. UP THROUGH THE COMPLETION OF YOUR Ph.D., HAD YOU
DONE ANY WORK RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. NO.
Q. HAD YOU EVER BEEN IN THE EVERGLADES?
A. YES, HIGH SCHOOL VACATION.
Q. OKAY. ON YOUR WAY TO THE BEACH, I GUESS, RIGHT?
A. NO, NO. WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE, BUT, NO.
Q. WHEN YOU FINISHED OR -- STRIKE THAT. BETWEEN '72
AND '77 WERE YOU EMPLOYED?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING DURING THAT TIME?
A. DURING THE SUMMER, AS I MENTIONED, I WORKED ON
THAT STUDY FUNDED BY THE APPALACHIAN MOUNTAIN
CLUB---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 48
A. ---AND LAKES REGION PLANNING COMMISSION. AND I
CONTINUED THAT WORK WITH THE LAKES REGION PLANNING
COMMISSION RIGHT THROUGH GRADUATION.
Q. OKAY. ULTIMATELY, WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF THAT
WORK? WAS THERE SOMETHING PUBLISHED OR---
A. THEY PUBLISHED SEVERAL AGENCY REPORTS, AND I GUESS
THAT'S ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE
WORK.
Q. OKAY. I ASSUME NOTHING THAT YOU DID THERE RELATES
TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW.
A. NO, IT DOESN'T. HUH-UH (NO).
Q. WHEN YOU FINISHED YOUR Ph.D., THEN, WHAT WAS YOUR
NEXT JOB?
A. I TAUGHT AT MICHIGAN STATE.
Q. AND FOR WHAT YEARS?
A. 1977 TO 1980.
Q. WHAT WAS YOUR TITLE?
A. I WAS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCE
DEVELOPMENT?
A. IT'S A DEPARTMENT IN THE COLLEGE OF NATURAL
RESOURCES THAT INCLUDES WATER RESOURCES, RESOURCE
ECONOMICS AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 49
Q. OKAY. WHAT COURSES OR WHAT AREAS DID YOU TEACH IN
THERE?
A. I TAUGHT WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT -- GEE, AND I
CAN'T REMEMBER -- I THINK WATER QUALITY MODELING.
Q. SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU'RE TEACHING NOW?
A. YEAH, PRECURSORS, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE FOCUS OF THOSE COURSES AT THAT
POINT IN TIME?
A. SAME GENERAL COURSE TOPICS, REALLY, AS I RECALL.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU DEAL IN ANY WAY WITH SUBJECTS
CONCERNING EUTROPHICATION IN THOSE COURSES?
A. I'M SURE I DID, YEAH.
Q. HOW ABOUT THE EVERGLADES?
A. I DOUBT VERY MUCH THAT I DID.
Q. WHAT BODIES OF WATER -- OR WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
YOUR FOCUS AT THAT TIME IN THOSE COURSES?
A. WATER BODIES, IN GENERAL. IF I HAD CASE STUDIES,
THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN GREAT LAKES RELATED.
Q. WHAT DO YOU CALL THE EVERGLADES, BY THE WAY, JUST
SO WE KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING? I
MEAN, IT'S NOT A LAKE, OBVIOUSLY.
A. OH, I THINK OF IT AS A WETLAND.
Q. A WETLAND AND WHAT---
A. YEAH, A WETLAND.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 50
Q. ---HOW DO YOU DEFINE "WETLAND"?
A. A LAND AREA THAT IS WET MUCH OF THE YEAR AND THAT
IS DOMINATED BY ROOTED AQUATIC VEGETATION AND IS
SHALLOW.
Q. WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER A "BOG"?
A. I HAVE NO OPINION. I SHOULDN'T SAY "OPINION." I
HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OR DEFINITION, YEAH.
Q. IS THAT -- CAN YOU USE THAT WORD INTERCHANGEABLY?
A. I PROBABLY WOULD. IT MAY NOT BE CORRECT.
Q. HOW ABOUT "SWAMP"?
A. I'D PROBABLY USE THAT WORD INTERCHANGEABLY, TOO.
Q. BUT YOU CAN'T TELL ME ANY SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR
DISTINGUISHING---
A. NO.
Q. ---AMONG THOSE WORDS?
A. NO, HUH-UH (NO).
Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER MICHIGAN STATE?
A. I CAME TO DUKE.
Q. AND, WHEN YOU CAME TO DUKE, WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST
JOB?
A. I WAS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF
FORESTRY IN ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT A PRECURSOR, IN PART, AT LEAST, TO
THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 51
A. YES, IT IS.
Q. WAS IT DIVIDED BETWEEN FORESTRY AND THE
ENVIRONMENT OR NAME CHANGE OR WHAT?
A. NO. FORESTRY ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES MERGED WITH
THE MARINE LAB TO FORM THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT.
Q. OKAY. WHEN WAS THAT?
A. 1991.
Q. OKAY. IT'S BEEN THAT -- BEEN FAIRLY RECENT?
A. YES, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU CAME TO DUKE, DID YOU
TEACH THE SAME COURSES THAT YOU WERE TEACHING AT
MICHIGAN STATE AND THAT YOU'RE TEACHING NOW?
A. LET ME THINK. JUST -- YEAH, I TAUGHT WATER
QUALITY MANAGEMENT INITIALLY. I THINK THAT WAS
THE FIRST COURSE I TAUGHT. AND I ALSO TAUGHT
REGRESSION ANALYSIS AND INTRODUCTORY STATISTICS.
Q. THE STATISTICS COURSES -- WHAT SCHOOL WERE THEY
TAUGHT THROUGH?
A. FORESTRY AND ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES.
Q. TO GRADUATE STUDENTS?
A. GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL STUDENTS, YEAH.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU TAUGHT SINCE YOU'VE
BEEN AT DUKE THAT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ABOUT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 52
ALREADY TODAY?
A. LET ME THINK. I TAUGHT, FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS,
WATER RESOURCES MODELING, WHICH -- A SPECIAL
TOPICS COURSE -- WHICH WAS A SPECIAL TOPICS
COURSE. AND WHAT ELSE? THAT'S THE -- MAY BE
SOMETHING ELSE LISTED THERE, BUT, OFF THE TOP OF
MY HEAD, IT---
Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WATER RESOURCES
MODELING AND WATER QUALITY MODELING?
A. WATER RESOURCES MODELING WAS A COURSE THAT TWO OUT
OF THREE OF OUR WATER FACULTY TAUGHT AT ANY ONE
TIME, AND WE JUST BROUGHT IN SPECIAL TOPICS AT THE
TIME WE WERE INVOLVED.
Q. AND WHEN WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN?
A. WHEN WOULD I HAVE TAUGHT THAT?
Q. WHEN YOU WOULD HAVE TAUGHT IT, YEAH.
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. LATE '80'S -- MID- TO LATE
'80'S. SEEMS TO ME I TAUGHT IT A COUPLE OF YEARS.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU -- WHEN DID YOU ADD THE
APPOINTMENTS IN THE OTHER SCHOOLS?
A. ENGINEERING WAS ADDED PRETTY QUICKLY, WITHIN A
YEAR OR TWO OF WHEN I ARRIVED. IN STATISTICS AND
DECISION SCIENCES, I HAD AN APPOINT -- RESEARCH
FACULTY APPOINTMENT WITH THEM FOR A COUPLE OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 53
YEARS, WHICH MIGHT HAVE BEEN LATE '80'S TO EARLY
'90'S. AND THEN, THE STANDARD FACULTY APPOINTMENT
BEGAN THIS JANUARY.
Q. SO NOW YOU'RE AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR IN THE
INSTITUTE OF STATISTICS AND DECISION SCIENCES?
A. UH-HUH (YES). YES.
Q. SO I CAN -- ON YOUR CV THAT I HAVE, I CAN "X" OFF
RESEARCH.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT LIKE A PROMOTION OR IS IT JUST
DIFFERENT FUNCTION?
A. IT'S JUST A CHANGE OF TITLES. THEY ELIMINATED --
AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY ELIMINATED THE RESEARCH
FACULTY AND APPOINTED SOME OF THEM ASSISTANT AND
ASSOCIATE WITHOUT THE WORD "RESEARCH."
Q. WHAT IS THE REASON THAT YOU WOULD HAVE
APPOINTMENTS IN OTHER SCHOOLS? IS THAT JUST, YOU
EARN MORE MONEY DOING THAT OR---
A. THERE'S NO MONEY ASSOCIATED WITH IT. IT---
Q. WHY DOES IT HAPPEN?
A. ---IT FACILITATES INTERACTIONS. IT'S AN
ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT SOMEONE'S INVOLVED IN AN AREA
OF STUDY.
Q. NOW, WHAT IS THE -- STRIKE THAT. WHEN DID YOU --
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 54
YOU CAME AS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, I THINK YOU
SAID.
A. YES.
Q. WHEN DID YOU GET PROMOTED TO ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR?
A. BELIEVE IT WAS 1985.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WOULD BE THE NEXT STEP?
A. FULL.
Q. AND HAVE YOU -- HAS THAT COME UP FOR YOU YET?
A. NO.
Q. WHEN WILL THAT COME UP?
A. IT'S NOT MY DECISION.
Q. OH, THERE'S NO SORT OF ROUTINE?
A. NO.
Q. CAN YOU ASK ABOUT IT OR DOES SOMEONE JUST COME IN
ONE DAY AND TELL YOU?
A. I CAN ASK ABOUT IT, YEAH, OR SOMEONE WILL -- A
DEAN OR A COMMITTEE WILL DECIDE IT'S APPROPRIATE.
Q. NOW, YOU'VE BEEN AN ASSOCIATE FOR ABOUT SEVEN OR
EIGHT YEARS.
A. YEAH.
Q. IS THAT THE NORM AT DUKE OR IN YOUR PARTICULAR
AREA?
A. I DON'T KNOW. IT VARIES. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. OKAY. NOW, TENURE IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU'RE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 55
CALLED, I ASSUME, OR IS IT?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
Q. WELL, DO YOU HAVE TENURE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU GET TENURE?
A. WHEN I WAS PROMOTED FROM ASSISTANT TO ASSOCIATE.
Q. OKAY. AND IS THAT THE NORMAL TIME WHEN ONE GETS
TENURE, WHEN YOU BECOME AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR?
THAT'S WHAT I MEANT BY THAT.
A. OH, OKAY.
Q. IS IT UNRELATED TO YOUR TITLE OR---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---OR DOES IT COME WITH THE TITLE?
A. NO, IT VARIES FROM DEPARTMENT TO DEPARTMENT AS TO
WHETHER IT'LL OCCUR THEN.
Q. IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT EUTROPHICATION HAS BEEN
PART OF THE COURSES THAT YOU'VE TAUGHT FOR THE
ENTIRE TIME YOU'VE BEEN AT DUKE?
A. FOR WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT AND WATER QUALITY
MODELING, YES.
Q. WHEN DID, SPECIFICALLY, YOU DEAL WITH THE
EVERGLADES FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR TEACHING?
A. I DON'T RECALL. MAY HAVE BEEN LAST YEAR.
Q. AND WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO START DEALING WITH THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 56
EVERGLADES IN YOUR TEACHING?
A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU BEFORE, I NEEDED AN EXAMPLE
TO HELP ILLUSTRATE THE REAL-WORLD APPLICABILITY OF
METHODS, AND THAT WAS ONE THAT I CHOSE.
Q. OKAY. SO THAT -- WHAT YOUR -- A MINUTE AGO THE
HANDOUT THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT -- THAT WOULD HAVE
BEEN THE FIRST TIME EVERGLADES BECAME INVOLVED IN
YOUR TEACHING?
A. I THINK SO, YEAH.
Q. NOW, THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER -- WHEN WAS THAT
CREATED AS A CENTER?
A. YOU ASKED BEFORE---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK THREE YEARS AGO.
Q. OKAY. WERE YOU PART OF THE CENTER FROM ITS
INCEPTION?
A. YES.
Q. HOW DOES THAT CHANGE WHAT YOU DO?
A. NOT AT ALL.
Q. SO, EVERYTHING IS THE SAME?
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. DO YOU -- DOES IT CHANGE YOUR COMPENSATION?
A. NO.
Q. AND YOU SAID EARLIER THAT YOUR COMPENSATION COMES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 57
ENTIRELY THROUGH DUKE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY.
A. WELL, I SAID THAT MY COMPENSATION COMES ENTIRELY
THROUGH THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
Q. OKAY. IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM THROUGH DUKE?
A. WELL, IT DOESN'T COME THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF
CIVIL ENGINEERING.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN ADDITION TO YOUR SALARY THAT YOU
GET FOR -- THROUGH THE SCHOOL FOR BEING A
PROFESSOR, DO YOU GET PAID FOR BEING A CONSULTANT?
A. YES.
Q. IS THAT DONE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF THE SCHOOL?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. DOES DUKE HAVE ANY SORT OF GUIDELINES WITH
REGARD TO ITS PROFESSORS AND CONSULTING WORK?
A. DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR, YOU'RE PERMITTED ONE DAY
A MONTH.
Q. ONE DAY A MONTH?
A. ONE DAY A WEEK -- I'M SORRY -- ONE DAY A WEEK,
YEAH, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. DOES ANYBODY ACTUALLY MONITOR THAT?
A. THEY MIGHT IN SOME DEPARTMENTS.
Q. DO THEY IN YOUR DEPARTMENT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 58
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU FIRST BEGIN DOING OUTSIDE
CONSULTING WORK IN YOUR CAREER?
A. I DON'T RECALL. IT MAY HAVE BEEN -- OH, I WAS
CONSULTING A LITTLE BIT WHEN I WAS A GRADUATE
STUDENT. THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU CONSULT ANY AT MICHIGAN
STATE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER DOING ANY THERE.
Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU GOT TO DUKE, WHEN DID YOU
FIRST BEGIN DOING CONSULTING WORK?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. IT MAY HAVE BEEN TEN YEARS AGO.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE -- WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST -- HOW DID
YOU GET INTO THAT AREA?
A. AS I HAVE SAID, I JUST DON'T REMEMBER HOW IT BEGAN
AND -- I JUST DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. OKAY. AS OF NOW, HOW MUCH OF YOUR TIME IS
CONSULTING? HOW MUCH CONSULTING DO YOU DO? I
KNOW, ONE DAY A WEEK.
A. YEAH, ONE DAY A WEEK.
Q. RIGHT. YOU'RE UNDER OATH, RIGHT?
A. YEAH.
MR. FITZGERALD: YOU COULD BE IN THE
AWKWARD POSITION, LIKE, IF YOUR DEPARTMENT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 59
HEAD WAS HERE OR---
MR. REID: YEAH, RIGHT. JUST THE
LAWYERS HERE, YOU'RE SAFE.
MR. FITZGERALD: ---OF HIM INVOKING YOUR
RIGHTS SO YOUR ATTORNEY DOESN'T HEAR THIS.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
A. GOSH, I HAVEN'T DONE ANY -- WELL, I SHOULD TAKE
THAT BACK. I'VE DONE -- IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS
I'VE MAYBE DONE A WEEK OF -- A DAY OF CONSULTING.
IT WILL VARY DURING THE TIME OF YEAR.
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. NOW, WE KNOW YOU'RE DOING
CONSULTING FOR THE COOPERATIVE.
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. OH, YOU'RE NOT?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE?
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR THE FRUIT AND
VEGETABLE GROWERS?
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DOING CONSULTING FOR ANY PRIVATE
COMPANIES?
A. I DON'T -- NO, HUH-UH (NO).
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 60
Q. WHO'S PAYING YOU TO BE HERE TODAY?
A. NO ONE.
Q. OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: COULD WE GO OFF THE
RECORD FOR A SECOND?
MR. REID: SURE.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) HOW ABOUT FOR THE ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION DISTRICT IN THE EVERGLADES; ARE YOU
CONSULTING FOR THEM NOW?
A. NOW, WHICH GROUP IS THAT?
Q. WELL, IT'S CALLED THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION---
A. I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT---
Q. ---DISTRICT.
A. WHO?
MR. FITZGERALD: EVERGLADES AGRICULTURAL
AREA, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT.
MR. REID: OKAY. YEAH. I DIDN'T KNOW
WHAT THE EXACT NAME WAS.
A. WHO'S SUPPORTING THAT---
Q. (BY MR. REID) THE SUGAR INDUSTRY?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 61
A. NO, I'M NOT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU CONSULTING FOR ANYBODY
WITH REGARD TO ANY OF THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING
IN THE -- RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. FOR WHOM?
A. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU START THAT WORK?
A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
Q. OKAY. WHO CALLED YOU AND ASKED YOU TO CONSULT FOR
THE DISTRICT?
A. GARTH REDFIELD.
Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR ASSIGNMENT?
A. I'M CO-CHAIRING THE MONITORING COMMITTEE -- THE
SUBCOMMITTEE WITH BILL WALKER.
Q. AND THAT'S A SUBCOMMITTEE TO WHAT?
A. I GET MY ACRONYMS CONFUSED.
Q. TOC?
A. YEAH.
Q. SAGE?
A. TOC, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK FOR SAGE?
A. NO.
Q. OR DO YOU KNOW WHAT SAGE IS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 62
A. I'D SAY I'M -- I DON'T KNOW THE -- I DON'T HAVE A
CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO.
Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THE
DISTRICT FOR YOUR WORK AS CO-CHAIR OF THE
MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE?
A. AS OF THIS MOMENT, NO, I DON'T.
Q. DID YOU HAVE ONE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW WAS YOUR COMPENSATION BASED ON
THAT?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
Q. HOW WAS IT SET? WAS IT A LUMP SUM, AN HOURLY
RATE---
A. YEAH, THEY SET A CEILING.
Q. OH, SO IT WAS A LUMP SUM FOR THE WORK THAT YOU
WERE ASKED TO DO?
A. WELL, THEY -- IT WAS A -- MAY HAVE BEEN A PURCHASE
ORDER, AND I BILLED AGAINST IT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE TOTAL?
A. BOY, I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER. I THINK IT WAS
ROUGHLY NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($9,000.00).
Q. AND HAVE YOU EXHAUSTED THOSE SUMS?
A. YES.
Q. SO, YOU'RE WAITING FOR A RENEWAL OR YOU'RE NOT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 63
GOING TO BE DOING ANY MORE WORK?
A. I'M WAITING FOR A RENEWAL.
Q. DO YOU EXPECT ONE TO COME?
A. GARTH TOLD ME ONE WAS COMING.
Q. AND DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT'S GOING TO BE?
A. NO.
Q. YOU MAY HAVE SAID. WHEN DID YOU BEGIN THAT
CONTRACT?
A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
Q. AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, THEN, YOU HAVE NO OTHER
CONSULTANT'S JOBS---
A. IN FLORIDA, THAT'S CORRECT---
Q. ---CONNECTED WITH THE EVERGLADES?
A. ---CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. ASIDE FROM THE ONE WITH THE DISTRICT, HAVE
YOU HAD ANY CONSULTING JOBS RELATING TO THE
EVERGLADES, EVER?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND LET'S GO BACK IN TIME, YOU KNOW,
REVERSE CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. WHAT'S THE MOST
RECENT ONE THAT YOU'VE HAD?
A. LET ME THINK. I GUESS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MAYBE
A YEAR AND A HALF AGO THROUGH PEEPLES, EARL &
BLANK.
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DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 64
Q. WERE YOU HIRED BY PEEPLES, EARL?
A. YES.
Q. AND FOR WHAT CLIENT OF PEEPLES, EARL WERE YOU
HIRED TO PERFORM SERVICE?
A. I THINK THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
Q. WHO CALLED YOU FROM PEEPLES, EARL?
A. GEE, I DON'T REMEMBER -- IT MAY HAVE BEEN RICK
BURGESS.
Q. NOW, YOU DIDN'T BRING ANY DOCUMENTS WITH YOU
TODAY, DID YOU?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. AND WOULD YOU HAVE RECORDS THAT WOULD
REFLECT WHEN EXACTLY YOU HAD THIS CALL WITH RICK
BURGESS?
A. WHEN I HAD THE CALL?
Q. YEAH.
A. I BET I DON'T.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR CONSULTING
WORK. DO YOU HAVE A SEPARATE CORPORATION SET UP
TO DO THAT?
A. NO. HUH-UH (NO).
Q. SO, YOU'RE JUST PAID -- YOU SEND OUT BILLS AND YOU
GET PAYMENTS.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 65
Q. DO YOU CHARGE AN HOURLY RATE FOR THIS KIND OF
WORK?
A. EXCUSE ME. YES, I DO.
Q. AND WHAT IS YOUR HOURLY RATE?
A. IT VARIES.
Q. GIVE ME THE RANGE.
A. SEVENTY ($70.00) TO ONE HUNDRED ($100.00) AN HOUR.
Q. WHAT MAKES A DISTINCTION OR WHAT MAKES YOU DECIDE
WHICH TO CHARGE?
A. SOMETIMES IT'S CONSTRAINED BY THE AGENCY
ORGANIZATION.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE CONSULTING WORK
THAT YOU DO, DO YOU KEEP RECORDS OR FILES SEPARATE
FROM THE ONES YOU KEEP AT THE UNIVERSITY
CONCERNING YOUR WORK AT DUKE?
A. YES.
Q. AND WHERE DO YOU KEEP THOSE FILES?
A. AT HOME.
Q. AND DO YOU HAVE A FILE THAT WOULD BE IDENTIFIED AS
RELATING TO THIS ENGAGEMENT BY PEEPLES, EARL?
A. I HAVE A STACK OF MATERIAL, YEAH -- FILES AND
THAT.
Q. OKAY. AND WOULD THAT INCLUDE NOT ONLY, WHAT WE'LL
CALL, SUBSTANTIVE MATERIAL BUT WOULD ALSO INCLUDE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 66
YOUR ADMINISTRATIVE MATERIAL FROM YOUR CONSULTING
WORK?
A. YES.
Q. AND WOULD IT HAVE BILLS, FOR INSTANCE, THAT YOU
SENT FOR YOUR WORK?
A. PROBABLY DOES, YEAH.
Q. AND WOULD IT HAVE LETTERS BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN
YOU AND COUNSEL?
A. YEAH.
Q. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SPECIFICS OF THAT IN A
LITTLE BIT, BUT I WANT TO WORK BACK TO GET ALL
YOUR CONSULTANCIES BEFORE RICK BURGESS CALLED YOU.
WHAT WAS THE ONE IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING THAT?
A. NOW, YOU'RE REFERRING TO EVERGLADES IN FLORIDA?
Q. WELL, NO, I MEAN ANY CONSULTING JOBS.
A. ANY CONSULTING JOBS---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---ANYWHERE?
Q. RIGHT.
A. OH, I CAN'T RECALL ALL THE CONSULTING ACTIVITIES
I'VE HAD. AND I HAVE -- NO, I MEAN, I JUST
COULDN'T DO THAT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WELL, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU HAVE
NO CONTRACTS, EXCEPT THE ONE WITH THE DISTRICT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 67
A. WELL, YOU'VE ASKED ME JUST ABOUT FLORIDA, AND
THAT'S WHAT I RESPONDED TO.
Q. OKAY. WELL, I MEANT TO BE BROADER IN THE
BEGINNING.
A. OKAY.
Q. SO MAYBE WE GOT OFF ON THE WRONG TRACK.
A. OKAY. YEAH.
Q. TODAY, AS YOU SIT HERE, YOU DO HAVE SOME
CONSULTING JOBS?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DO THEY RELATE TO?
A. THE EVERGLADES, THE MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE THAT I
MENTIONED---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---A PROJECT WITH THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU GET THAT JOB?
A. ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
Q. AND WHO HIRED YOU FOR THAT?
A. TONY FEDERICO.
Q. AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING THERE?
A. SETTING UP A DECISION ANALYTIC FRAMEWORK FOR
MANAGEMENT OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. WHAT SPECIFIC PROBLEM ARE YOU DEALING WITH WITH
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 68
LAKE OKEECHOBEE?
A. EUTROPHICATION OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE AMOUNT OF THAT CONTRACT?
A. OH, BOY. FIFTEEN THOUSAND ($15,000.00)?
Q. IS THAT STILL GOING ON?
A. YES.
Q. HAVE YOU PREPARED ANY WORK PRODUCT YET THAT YOU'D
SUBMIT TO THE DISTRICT?
A. A DRAFT MANUSCRIPT.
Q. WHAT'S IT CALLED?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE TITLE, BUT IT'S SOMETHING
ABOUT DECISION ANALYSIS IN LAKE OKEECHOBEE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S JUST FOCUS ON FLORIDA---
A. OKAY.
Q. ---FOR THE NEXT FEW QUESTIONS, AND THEN WE'LL GO
BACK TO YOUR GENERAL WORK.
A. OKAY.
Q. WORKING BACK, WHAT IS THE NEXT CONSULTING JOB THAT
YOU'VE HAD RELATING -- RELATED TO FLORIDA?
A. TO FLORIDA? WITH LANDERS & PARSONS.
Q. AND WHAT IS THAT?
A. LOOKING AT EUTROPHICATION MODELING IN LAKE
OKEECHOBEE.
Q. WHO IS LANDERS & PARSONS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 69
A. A LAW FIRM IN TALLAHASSEE.
Q. AND ON WHOSE BEHALF DID THEY CONTACT YOU?
A. THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
Q. AND YOU'RE BEING PAID BY THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE
DIRECTLY?
A. I WAS PAID---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---YEAH.
Q. THAT'S FINISHED?
A. THAT'S FINISHED.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW MUCH WAS THAT CONTRACT?
A. THAT MUST HAVE BEEN ABOUT EIGHTY THOUSAND
($80,000.00).
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE ASSIGNMENT THERE?
A. WAS TO EVALUATE EUTROPHICATION MODELS IN
DESCRIBING OR SIMULATING EUTROPHICATION IN LAKE
OKEECHOBEE.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY "EVALUATE," YOU MEAN YOU WERE LOOKING
AT OTHER PEOPLE'S MODELS?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. WHOSE MODELS WERE YOU LOOKING AT?
A. WE LOOKED AT MODELS THAT HAD BEEN PROPOSED BY
SCIENTISTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND THE
WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 70
Q. OKAY. WAS THIS PART OF ANY PARTICULAR PROCEEDING,
LEGAL OR ADMINISTRATIVE OR LEGISLATIVE WORK YOU
WERE DOING?
A. IT RELATED TO THE USE OF A MODEL TO SET PHOSPHORUS
LIMITS ON THE LAKE.
Q. SOMEBODY WAS TRYING TO SET PHOSPHORUS LIMITS ON
THE LAKE AND HAD COME UP WITH A MODEL?
A. THE WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, AS FAR AS I KNOW,
HAD SET PHOSPHORUS LIMITS ON THE LAKE ON THE BASIS
OF USE OF A MODEL.
Q. AND YOUR JOB WAS TO, IN EFFECT, CRITICIZE OR
EVALUATE THAT MODEL?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR ULTIMATE CONCLUSION?
WITNESS: I GUESS I NEED TO -- SOME
ADVICE HERE. VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING I---
MR. RUSSELL: WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT
IT'S -- I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT, BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU'RE
GETTING INTO AREAS THAT YOU DIDN'T TESTIFY AS
AN EXPERT OR WEREN'T HIRED AS A TESTIFYING
EXPERT, THEN, IT WOULD BE PRIVILEGED. I
DON'T KNOW---
WITNESS: WELL, EVERYTHING I DID FOR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 71
THEM HAD "PRIVILEGED" AND "CONFIDENTIAL" ON
THE TOP.
MR. RUSSELL: WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT --
EVERYTHING -- EVERY PAPER THAT COMES OUT
HAS -- LET'S TAKE A BREAK FOR A MINUTE.
MR. REID: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
MR. REID: OKAY, BACK ON THE RECORD.
WHAT'S THE ANSWER?
MR. RUSSELL: I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT THE
WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER ANY OF THE QUESTIONS
INVOLVING SPECIFICS OF THE -- OTHER THAN THE
GENERAL INFORMATION HE'S ALREADY GIVEN,
BECAUSE IT'S -- HE WAS HIRED AS A
NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT BY OUR CLIENT AND IT
GETS INTO AN AREA OF WORK PRODUCT.
MR. REID: OKAY. CERTIFY THE QUESTION,
PLEASE.
MR. RUSSELL: I MIGHT SAY, ALSO, THAT
NONE OF THE PRODUCTS OF THAT FORMATIVE -- OR
SUPPORT THE BASIS FOR YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS
PROCEEDING, DO THEY?
WITNESS: NO, NO.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 72
MR. RUSSELL: OKAY.
WITNESS: NOT AT ALL.
Q. (BY MR. REID) WHEN WAS THE LANDERS & PARSONS---
MR. REID: WAIT A MINUTE. YOU SAID
HIRED BY YOUR FIRM.
MS. STINSON: CLIENT, HE SAID.
MR. REID: CLIENT -- OH, I'M SORRY.
OKAY.
MR. RUSSELL: CLIENT.
Q. ---WHEN WAS THE LANDERS & PARSONS WORK DONE FOR
THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. I DON'T RECALL, BUT I THINK IT BEGAN ABOUT FOUR
YEARS AGO AND WAS COMPLETED A YEAR AND A HALF TO
TWO YEARS AGO, MAYBE A YEAR AND A HALF.
Q. DID THAT DIFFER FROM THE WORK THAT YOU DID FOR THE
DISTRICT CONCERNING LAKE OKEECHOBEE?
A. YES.
Q. HOW WAS IT DIFFERENT? WITHOUT TELLING ME WHAT IT
WAS, JUST---
A. IT INVOLVED EVALUATING MODELS THAT HAD BEEN USED
AND---
Q. THAT'S THE WORK FOR LANDERS?
A. YES. THE WORK FOR THE DISTRICT INVOLVES USE OF
DECISION ANALYSIS TO GUIDE THEIR SCIENTIFIC WORK
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 73
IN SUPPORT OF DECISION MAKING.
Q. OKAY. DID ANY OF THE WORK -- ANY OF THE LEARNING
THAT YOU ACCOMPLISHED IN THE WORK FOR LANDERS &
PARSONS ASSIST YOU IN YOUR WORK YOU DID FOR THE
DISTRICT?
A. IT HASN'T. NO, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT IT WOULD. IT
HASN'T.
Q. OKAY. KEEP GOING. WHAT OTHER CONSULTING JOBS
HAVE YOU HAD RELATING TO FLORIDA OR THE
EVERGLADES?
MR. FITZGERALD: WHILE THE DOCTOR'S
THINKING, I WOULD JOIN IN THE EXCEPTION ON
THE DIRECTION NOT TO ANSWER ANY OF THESE
QUESTIONS.
A. I WORKED FOR CH2M-HILL.
Q. (BY MR. REID) SAY THAT AGAIN.
A. CH2M-HILL, H-I-L-L.
Q. WHAT IS THAT?
A. THAT'S A ENGINEERING CONSULTING FIRM THAT HAS
BRANCHES NATIONWIDE. I ASSISTED THEM ON LAKE WORK
IN ST. PETERSBURG.
Q. WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM THERE?
A. WATER QUALITY IN AN URBAN LAKE.
Q. DID IT DEAL WITH EUTROPHICATION OR OTHER TYPES OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 74
POLLUTION?
A. IT DEALT WITH EUTROPHICATION. IT MAY HAVE DEALT
WITH OTHER PROBLEMS ALSO.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE ULTIMATE RESULT OF THAT
WORK? DID YOU HAVE A PAPER? DID YOU TESTIFY---
A. I CONTRIBUTED SOME MODELING AND STATISTICAL
GUIDANCE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT ELSE?
A. I THINK THAT'S ALL I'VE DONE IN FLORIDA.
Q. OKAY. JUST SO I'M CLEAR, THEN, YOU HAVE NOT DONE
ANY WORK FOR HOPPING, BOYD LAW FIRM; WILLIAM
GREEN?
A. I HAVE NOT BEEN -- I DON'T RECALL BEING EVER PAID
AS A CONSULTANT.
Q. AND HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK AS PART OF THE DUKE
WETLAND CENTER WHERE YOU WEREN'T HIRED AS AN
INDEPENDENT CONSULTANT, BUT YOU WERE STILL DOING
WORK RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES ISSUES?
A. I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY SALARY PAYMENT THROUGH THE
DUKE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION.
A. YEAH.
Q. THE QUESTION WAS, HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK IN
CONJUNCTION WITH THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER RELATING
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 75
TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. YES.
Q. WHEN DID YOU FIRST DO THAT WORK?
A. LAST SUMMER.
Q. LAST SUMMER?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND WHO APPROACHED YOU ABOUT DOING THAT WORK?
A. THAT WORK DEVELOPED BECAUSE MY Ph.D. STUDENT, SONG
QIAN, IS SUPPORTED THROUGH THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER. AND I'M WORKING WITH MY STUDENT, SO
THAT'S HOW THE WORK BEGAN.
Q. BY SUPPORTED THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER, DO YOU
MEAN HE HAS A FELLOWSHIP OR SOMETHING SUCH AS
THAT?
A. HE RECEIVES FUNDS, HIS FINANCIAL AID, FROM THE
WETLAND CENTER.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT PROJECT WAS HE WORKING ON?
A. HE'S LOOKING AT -- HIS DISSERTATION IS GOING TO
INVOLVE STATISTICAL AND MODELING METHODS OF
WETLAND TRAPPING OF NUTRIENTS.
Q. HOW DID HE COME TO SELECT THIS TOPIC?
A. HE WAS INTERESTED IN DISSERTATION WORK ON
STATISTICAL METHODS, AND HE'S PARTICULARLY
INTERESTED IN WETLANDS, SO IT WAS A NATURAL.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 76
Q. DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS SELECTING
THIS TOPIC?
A. I DON'T THINK I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS GOING
TO THE WETLAND CENTER AND GETTING THIS
OPPORTUNITY.
Q. I'M SORRY.
A. I DON'T THINK I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS
DEVELOPING THIS OPPORTUNITY THROUGH THE WETLAND
CENTER.
Q. NOW, YOU SAID HE'S YOUR GRADUATE STUDENT.
A. YES, HE IS.
Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A. MEANS HE CAME TO DUKE TO WORK WITH ME AS A STUDENT
ON HIS Ph.D.
Q. AND YOU'RE HIS ADVISOR?
A. YES, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR ROLE -- STRIKE THAT. FIRST OF
ALL, WHAT HAS HE DONE, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, TO DATE
ON HIS DISSERTATION?
A. HE IS PRIMARILY AT THE STAGE OF COURSE WORK IN HIS
GRADUATE STUDIES. HE WILL DEVELOP A PROPOSAL ON
HIS DISSERTATION RESEARCH OVER THE NEXT THREE OR
FOUR MONTHS. RIGHT NOW, HE'S JUST EXPLORING WHAT
THAT PROPOSAL WOULD ENTAIL.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 77
Q. OKAY. SO, HE'S NOT MADE A PROPOSAL YET.
A. NO, NOT A FORMAL PROPOSAL THAT HIS RESEARCH
COMMITTEE WILL EXAMINE.
Q. SO, THIS TOPIC THAT YOU GAVE ME IS A WORKING
TOPIC, SO-TO-SPEAK?
A. YES, YEAH.
Q. AND HE'S DONE NOTHING TOWARD---
A. NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT. HE HASN'T -- WHAT YOU
SAID EARLIER WAS CORRECT. HE HASN'T DEVELOPED A
FORMAL PROPOSAL. HE'S IN THE MIDST OF EXPLORING
THAT.
Q. WELL, MY QUESTION WAS GOING TO BE THAT HE'S DONE
NONE OF THE ACTUAL RESEARCH OR WORK CONCERNING
THIS TOPIC AT THIS POINT.
A. IN THE EXPLORATION PROCESS, HE'S LOOKED AT THINGS,
BUT NOTHING THAT WILL BE THE---
Q. SO, WHAT HAS YOUR ROLE BEEN SINCE LAST SUMMER WHEN
HE FIRST CAME TO YOU AND MENTIONED THAT HE WAS
THINKING ABOUT DOING THIS?
A. ENCOURAGING HIM TO PURSUE IT.
Q. ANYTHING ELSE?
A. I'VE LOOKED AT SOME OF HIS STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.
I'VE PROVIDED A LOT OF GUIDANCE ON THE STATISTICAL
METHODS HE MIGHT USE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 78
Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANYTHING INDEPENDENT OF LOOKING AT
WHAT HE'S DONE?
A. NO.
Q. NOW, ASIDE FROM THAT, WHAT OTHER -- OR HAVE YOU
DONE ANY OTHER WORK RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES AS
PART OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER?
A. NO.
Q. AND I MEAN EVER.
A. YES, THAT'S CORRECT, NEVER.
Q. DOES DUKE HAVE A POLICY, WHEN THE WETLAND CENTER
DOES WORK FOR CONSULTANTS, THAT THE WORK HAS TO BE
IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
WITNESS: YOU PROBABLY CAN ANSWER
DUKE'S POLICY BETTER THAN I CAN.
MR. REID: OKAY. HE CAN'T ANSWER. HE'S
NOT ALLOWED.
WITNESS: HE'S NOT ALLOWED.
MR. FITZGERALD: YOU COULD JUST SWEAR
THE ATTORNEY AND GET THIS -- IT'S A MINOR
POINT, RIGHT?
WITNESS: NO, I DON'T KNOW.
MR. FITZGERALD: WE'D EVEN ACCEPT A
PROFFER.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 79
Q. (BY MR. REID) WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU'RE HIRED AS A
PRIVATE CONSULTANT, ARE THERE ANY GUIDELINES IN
TERMS OF WHAT YOU CAN DO?
A. WHAT I CAN DO?
Q. YEAH.
A. THERE ARE GUIDELINES CONCERNING CONFLICT OF
INTEREST AND -- NO.
Q. OKAY. BUT ARE THERE ANY GUIDELINES CONCERNING
CONFIDENTIALITY?
A. CONFIDENTIALITY, MEANING WHAT I DO AS A
CONSULTANT---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---THAT SHOULD NOT BE PUBLIC?
Q. RIGHT.
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE AREN'T.
Q. WHEN YOU WORK FOR SOMEONE AS A PRIVATE CONSULTANT
AND YOU SEND IN WORK PRODUCT, DOES IT SAY "DUKE
UNIVERSITY" ON THE WORK PRODUCT?
A. NO.
Q. DOES IT SAY "DUKE WETLAND CENTER" ON THE WORK
PRODUCT?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. NOW, DO YOU APPLY FOR GRANTS FROM TIME TO
TIME?
††††††††††††䥔䕍ിഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 80
A. YES.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER APPLIED FOR ANY GRANT RELATING TO
THE EVERGLADES?
A. NO.
Q. HAVE YOU BEEN PART OF A GROUP OR HAD ANY CONTACT
AT ALL THROUGH REVIEW OR OTHERWISE OF A GRANT THAT
SOMEONE ELSE WAS MAKING RELATING TO ISSUES
CONCERNING THE EVERGLADES?
A. A GRANT PROPOSAL?
Q. YES.
A. NO.
Q. IS THERE SOMETHING WITH THE -- DID I MISSTATE
SOMETHING, YOU KNOW? THE WAY YOU ANSWERED THE
QUESTION MADE ME THINK THAT, IF I SAID IT A
DIFFERENT WAY, THERE WOULD BE -- THE ANSWER WOULD
BE YES.
A. NO, I JUST WANTED TO GET CLEAR WHAT YOU WERE
ASKING.
Q. I'VE GOT A TWO-PAGE VERSION OF YOUR RESUME.
A. YES.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
Q. IT HAS SELECTED PRESENTATIONS AND SELECTED
PUBLICATIONS AND CONSULTING ACTIVITY. CAN YOU
LOOK AT IT AND TELL ME, PLEASE, ANY THAT YOU
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 81
BELIEVE RELATE TO THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING IN
THIS PARTICULAR CASE? MAYBE, IF YOU COULD, JUST
PUT AN "X" NEXT TO ANY THAT---
A. THAT RELATE---
Q. TO THE TOPICS THAT YOU'VE DEALT WITH CONCERNING
THE EVERGLADES.
A. OKAY. LET ME JUST BE CLEAR---
Q. SURE.
A. ---YOU MENTIONED THE TOPICS I'VE DEALT WITH
CONCERNING THE EVERGLADES---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---OR THIS CASE. AND I THINK OF THOSE NECESSARILY
AS---
Q. WELL, BOTH. SO, IF THERE'S -- IF ONE ARTICLE
APPLIES TO ONE AND NOT TO THE OTHER, JUST TELL ME
THAT.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. I DON'T SEE ANY OF THEM RELATING TO THE
EVERGLADES.
Q. ARE THERE OTHER PUBLICATIONS OR SPEECHES THAT
WOULD RELATE TO THE EVERGLADES---
A. NO.
Q. ---THAT AREN'T ON HERE?
A. NO.
†††††††††䄠†低മ
††††††††††䄮†⁎伮ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 82
Q. SO, IT'S SAFE TO SAY YOU'VE NEVER SPOKEN OR
WRITTEN ON ANY SUBJECT RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES.
A. IN ANY FORMAL SENSE, NO.
Q. JUST SO I'M CLEAR, A MINUTE AGO WHEN I WAS ASKING
YOU ABOUT GRANTS---
A. YES.
Q. ---IF I USED THE TERMS EITHER "CONTRACT PROPOSALS"
OR "RFP'S," WOULD YOUR ANSWER BE DIFFERENT?
A. GIVE THE QUESTION AGAIN.
Q. YEAH. THE QUESTION HAD TO DO WITH WHETHER YOU HAD
EVER MADE ANY GRANT APPLICATIONS YOURSELF RELATING
TO THE SUBJECTS CONCERNING THE EVERGLADES OR YOUR
WORK IN THIS CASE---
A. OR IF I'D EVER---
Q. ---OR IF YOU'D EVER REVIEWED ANYBODY ELSE'S. AND
NOW, I WANT TO KNOW, IF I CALLED THEM "CONTRACT
PROPOSALS" OR "RFP'S," WOULD YOUR ANSWER BE
DIFFERENT?
A. IT WOULD BE THE SAME.
Q. YOU HAVE NOT LOOKED AT ANY GRANTS, CONTRACT
PROPOSALS OR RFP'S OF ANYBODY ELSE RELATING TO THE
EVERGLADES.
A. THE ONLY THING THAT I HAVE LOOKED AT WITH REGARD
TO THE EVERGLADES WAS THE GENERAL RESEARCH PLAN
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 83
PROPOSED BY THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT THAT WENT TO BILL WALKER AND TO ME.
Q. OKAY. AND THAT WAS JUST PART OF YOUR WORK WITH
TOC?
A. WITH THE TOC.
Q. BEFORE YOU CAME HERE TODAY, DID YOU TALK TO
ANYBODY ABOUT THIS DEPOSITION?
A. I TALKED TO RICHARD AND TO DONNA.
Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU TALK TO THEM?
A. I TALKED TO DONNA YESTERDAY; RICHARD THIS MORNING,
AND DONNA THIS MORNING. I TALKED TO RICK BURGESS
ON THE PHONE.
Q. WHEN DID YOU TALK TO RICK BURGESS?
A. LAST NIGHT.
Q. OKAY. LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR MEETING WITH DONNA.
HOW LONG WAS THAT MEETING?
A. A LITTLE LESS THAN TWO HOURS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHERE WAS THE MEETING?
A. THAT WAS AT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE TOPIC OF THE MEETING?
MS. STINSON: DO YOU WANT JUST A
GENERAL SUBJECT. I'M GOING TO OBJECT---
MR. REID: WELL, I'M SORRY.
MS. STINSON: ---IF HE GETS INTO
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 84
COMMUNICATIONS WITH COUNSEL.
MR. REID: ON WHAT BASIS? HE'S NOT
YOUR CLIENT, IS HE?
MS. STINSON: HE IS OUR WITNESS. NO,
HE'S NOT OUR CLIENT.
MR. REID: I UNDERSTAND. HE'S YOUR
DESIGNATED EXPERT IN THIS -- A DESIGNATED
EXPERT IN THIS CASE, ISN'T HE?
MS. STINSON: THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. REID: OKAY.
A. I HAD NEVER GIVEN A DEPOSITION, AND SHE WAS GIVING
ME ADVICE AS TO WHAT I MIGHT EXPECT.
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. DID YOU TALK ABOUT THE
SUBSTANCE OF YOUR OPINIONS OR YOUR WORK CONCERNING
THIS CASE?
A. I TOLD HER WHERE SONG WAS IN HIS WORK, JUST AS I
HAD MENTIONED TO YOU, AND WHERE WE HOPED IT WOULD
GO, JUST AS I HAD MENTIONED TO YOU.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT ANY WORK EXCEPT
THIS PROPOSED DISSERTATION OF SONG?
A. LET ME THINK. WE TALKED BRIEFLY ABOUT SOME OF THE
DOCUMENTS THAT -- AS I RECALL, DONNA ASKED ME WHAT
THIS WAS OR WHAT THAT WAS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DOCUMENTS DID YOU LOOK AT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 85
A. THE STACK THAT -- OF DOCUMENTS THAT WERE PRODUCED.
Q. OKAY. WHAT SPECIFIC DOCUMENTS DID SHE ASK YOU
ABOUT, THE WHOLE STACK?
A. WELL, THERE WERE A FEW THAT SHE WASN'T CLEAR WHAT
THEY WERE. AND ONE OF THEM WAS, AS I RECALL, WAS
A SET OF FIGURES, WHAT WE DECIDED WAS FROM
SOMETHING BILL WALKER HAD DONE.
Q. WHAT ELSE?
A. A REPORT THAT SONG HAD DONE FOR A CLASS THAT CURT
RICHARDSON HAD TAKEN AND WRITTEN FURTHER ON THE
HEAD "NO AUTHOR," AND WE IDENTIFIED THE AUTHOR.
Q. ANYTHING ELSE YOU REMEMBER?
A. WE TALKED ABOUT---
MS. STINSON: EXCUSE ME. LET ME --
I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE BREADTH OF THE
QUESTION AND INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO
ANSWER REGARDING ANY COMMUNICATIONS FROM ME,
COUNSEL, REGARDING ANYTHING WE TALKED ABOUT
IN CONNECTION WITH HIS -- HIS TESTIMONY IN
THIS CASE.
MR. REID: WELL, I DON'T WANT TO GET IN
AN ARGUMENT ABOUT IT, BUT LET ME JUST SAY,
FOR THE RECORD, TO PERHAPS SAVE EVERYBODY A
LOT OF TROUBLE OR EXPENSE DOWN THE ROAD, MY
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 86
UNDERSTANDING OF LAW IN FLORIDA, IS THAT ONCE
AN EXPERT IS DESIGNATED AS A WITNESS TO
TESTIFY AT TRIAL, THERE IS NO WORK PRODUCT
PROTECTION REGARDING THE SUBJECT MATTER OF
HIS TESTIMONY.
MS. STINSON: NO, I---
MR. REID: NOW, DO YOU KNOW OF SOME LAW
THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM THAT?
MS. STINSON: NO. AND I'M NOT OBJECTING
TO HIM TALKING ABOUT THE SUBJECT MATTER OF
HIS TESTIMONY. WHAT I AM OBJECTING TO AND
INSTRUCTING HIM NOT TO ANSWER ABOUT IS TRIAL
STRATEGY, COMMENTS FROM COUNSEL REGARDING
TRIAL STRATEGY, AND ANY DISCUSSIONS OF THOSE
TYPES OF ISSUES, IF THERE WERE ANY. AND
COMMUNICATIONS FROM COUNSEL CLEARLY ARE
PROTECTED AND ARE NOT DISCOVERABLE. WITH
REGARD TO WHAT THE SUBJECT MATTER OF HIS
TESTIMONY IS, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE, ALL OF THAT
IS TOTALLY DISCOVERABLE.
MR. REID: OKAY.
Q. (BY MR. REID) WELL, I'M OBVIOUSLY TALKING ABOUT
WHAT -- YOUR CONVERSATIONS CONCERNING YOUR
TESTIMONY HERE TODAY AND THE SUBJECT MATTER OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 87
YOUR TESTIMONY RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES AND SO
FORTH.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. SO, WITH THAT UNDERSTANDING, YOU CAN ANSWER THE
QUESTION, I GUESS.
A. WE ALSO TALKED ABOUT A REPORT THAT BILL WALKER HAD
DONE ON TREND ANALYSIS.
Q. OKAY. HAD YOU LOOKED AT THAT REPORT BEFORE?
A. YEAH, ABOUT YEAR AND A HALF, TWO YEARS AGO.
Q. DID YOU EXPRESS OPINIONS RELATING TO THAT REPORT
YESTERDAY IN THE MEETING?
A. I DIDN'T EXPRESS ANY OPINIONS, AS I RECALL, ABOUT
THAT REPORT IN THE MEETING YESTERDAY.
Q. OKAY. WHAT'D YOU SAY ABOUT THAT REPORT?
A. OH, WHAT I DID SAY ABOUT THE REPORT IS THAT I
DIDN'T SEE THAT IT WAS RELEVANT IN TERMS OF WHAT
WE WERE DOING -- THAT IS, SONG AND I WERE DOING.
Q. OKAY. YOU MEAN -- WHEN YOU SAY WHAT YOU AND SONG
WERE DOING, JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT THIS PROPOSED DISSERTATION TOPIC.
A. YES, YES.
Q. WHEN WILL HE GO BEFORE THE COMMITTEE TO HAVE THAT
APPROVED?
A. HE SAID YESTERDAY, HE HOPES BY THE END OF THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 88
SUMMER AND I HOPE BY THE END OF THE SUMMER, TOO.
I EXPECT BY THE END OF THE SUMMER.
Q. SO HE WON'T START SUBSTANTIVE WORK ON THE TOPIC
UNTIL THE COMMITTEE APPROVES IT?
A. HE WON'T START SUBSTANTIVE WORK UNTIL THE
COMMITTEE APPROVES IT. HE WILL DEVELOP IT ONLY
TO THE EXTENT OF SHOWING THE COMMITTEE ITS
PROSPECTS.
Q. I SEE. OKAY. ANY OTHER TOPICS OF DISCUSSION
WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK THAT WE DESCRIBED YESTERDAY
WITH MS. STIM---
MR. REID: I ALWAYS GET YOUR NAME
CONFUSED.
MS. STINSON: I-N-S-O-N.
MR. REID: IT'S "N," NOT "M."
MS. STINSON: STINSON.
MR. REID: I KNOW SOMEBODY NAMED
STIMSON. STINSON. EXCUSE ME.
MR. FITZGERALD: LIKE THE OLD AIRPLANE.
MS. STINSON: RIGHT.
MR. REID: PARDON?
MR. FITZGERALD: STINSON, THE OLD
AIRPLANE.
MS. STINSON: AIRPLANE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 89
A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY.
MS. STINSON: MY MAIDEN NAME
WAS HOLSHOUSER, IF YOU WANT TO USE THAT
NAME.
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU HAD A MEETING
WITH -- WHO ELSE DID YOU HAVE A MEETING WITH
YESTERDAY? YOU SAID YOU HAD THE TWO-HOUR MEETING.
A. WE HAD JUST THAT TWO-HOUR MEETING.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU---
A. THAT WAS IT.
Q. ---AND YOU SPOKE WITH RICK BURGESS, YOU SAID.
A. RICK BURGESS, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. NOW, TELL ME ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION.
MR. RUSSELL: I'M JUST GOING TO INSTRUCT
THE WITNESS. YOU CAN ANSWER---
MR. REID: SAME UNDERSTANDING.
MR. FITZGERALD: SAME UNDERSTANDING,
YEAH.
A. NOW---
MR. FITZGERALD: I NEED A CLARIFICATION
HERE. I DON'T ACCEPT THAT.
MR. REID: THAT'S FINE.
MR. FITZGERALD: BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME
THAT THIS WITNESS IS NOT DESIGNATED BY THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 90
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. AND SHOULD THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE ATTORNEYS DECIDE TO SPEAK WITH HIM,
THERE IS NO PROTECTION WHATSOEVER.
MR. REID: YEAH.
MR. FITZGERALD: IT IS NOT WORK PRODUCT.
MR. REID: OKAY. NO PROBLEM.
MR. FITZGERALD: HE'S -- HE IS WHAT?
WHAT?
MR. RUSSELL: EXCUSE ME.
MR. REID: I THINK Y'ALL ARE WITHDRAWING
HIM AS AN EXPERT.
MR. FITZGERALD: OH, OKAY.
MS. STINSON: THAT'S TRUE.
MR. REID: SO, I DON'T THINK HE'S YOUR
EXPERT ANY MORE.
MS. STINSON: THAT'S TRUE.
MR. FITZGERALD: I HAVE THE DOCUMENT
HERE. WE CAN MAKE IT A PART OF THE RECORD,
IF WE HAVE TO.
MR. RUSSELL: THAT'S TRUE, BUT THE --
OH, YEAH, I AGREE WITH THAT, THAT WE'VE
WITHDRAWN HIM AS AN EXPERT.
MR. FITZGERALD: OH.
MR. RUSSELL: THAT'S CORRECT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 91
MR. REID: HE'S NOT---
MR. RUSSELL: THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. REID: ---YOUR WITNESS ANY FURTHER
AND HE'S---
MR. REID: YEAH.
MR. RUSSELL: ---NOT A CONSULTANT FOR
YOU, SO---
MR. REID: WELL---
MR. RUSSELL: HE'S TESTIFIED---
MR. REID: ---WHEN HE HAD BEEN A---
MR. RUSSELL: ---WELL, WE HAD TALKED
EARLIER ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE WAS A
NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT IN ANOTHER MATTER.
MR. REID: OKAY.
MR. RUSSELL: AND, IN FACT, THAT'S WHAT
THE DISCUSSION WITH ME AND WITH RICK BURGESS
WAS, TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE
TRYING TO GET BACK A REPORT WHICH WAS
INADVERTENTLY GIVEN TO YOU FOLKS. AND I'VE
ASKED MS. STINSON TO REQUEST THAT. PERHAPS
NOW IS THE TIME FOR HER TO REQUEST IT, BUT AT
THE TIME SHE DID NOT REALIZE THAT IT WAS THE
WORK PRODUCT OF A NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT AND
THAT'S WHY IT WAS PRODUCED.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 92
MR. REID: WELL, WHAT REPORT IS IT?
MS. STINSON: IT'S THE WALKER ONE,
EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK TRENDS, AND WE
HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THE DOCUMENTS---
MR. REID: YEAH.
MS. STINSON: ---BUT IT IS MY INTENT TO
REQUEST THAT BACK---
MR. REID: OKAY. I GUESS MY---
MS. STINSON: ---AS BEING INADVERTENTLY
PRODUCED. BUT I DON'T KNOW---
MR. REID: WELL, YOU'RE NOT SAYING
THAT'S PRIVILEGED, ARE YOU?
MS. STINSON: THE -- I AM ASKING FOR IT
BACK. THE LEAGUE HAS ASSERTED A PRIVILEGE
OVER IT BECAUSE IT WAS DONE IN CONNECTION
WITH HIS WORK AS A NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT.
MR. REID: WALKER'S?
MR. RUSSELL: IT'S NOT THE REPORT
ITSELF.
MS. STINSON: THE COMMENTS -- THE
HANDWRITTEN COMMENTS---
MR. REID: AH, COMMENTS.
MS. STINSON: ---ON IT. NO, WALKER'S
REPORT, YOU CAN HAVE ALL OF THOSE YOU WANT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 93
MR. REID: OKAY.
MR. FITZGERALD: I WAS GOING TO SUGGEST
I WOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT---
MR. REID: ALL RIGHT.
MR. FITZGERALD: ---SINCE THAT REPORT
HAS GONE OUT TO THE WORLD.
MS. STINSON: OKAY.
MR. REID: ALL RIGHT. WE'LL TALK ABOUT
IT LATER.
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES:
Q. ALL RIGHT. LET ME -- LET'S GO BACK. I WAS ASKING
YOU ABOUT YOUR TELEPHONE CONVERSATION YESTERDAY---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---WITH MR. BURGESS, AND COUNSEL HAS JUST
INDICATED THAT IT HAD TO DO WITH SOME NOTES THAT
YOU MADE ON A -- ON BILL WALKER'S REPORT.
A. YEAH.
Q. AND, ASIDE FROM THAT TOPIC, WERE THERE ANY OTHER
TOPICS THAT RELATED TO THE EVERGLADES OR TO THIS
CASE?
A. ACTUALLY, I THINK IT RELATED TO WHAT WAS JUST
STATED, WHICH IS THAT RICK TOLD ME I'M NO LONGER
LISTED AS AN EXPERT WITNESS IN THIS.
Q. UH-HUH (YES). OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 94
CONVERSATION?
A. NO.
Q. NOW, DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER CONVERSATION TODAY WITH
ANYBODY?
A. WITH RICHARD AND WITH DONNA---
Q. AND WHAT---
A. ---ABOUT FIFTEEN MINUTES -- BETWEEN 10:00 AND
10:15 THIS MORNING.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE TOPIC OF THAT MEETING?
A. THEY JUST TOLD ME TO TELL THE TRUTH, WHICH IS WHAT
WE'RE DOING.
Q. SO, YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR
OPINIONS OR TESTIMONY?
A. (NODS NEGATIVELY.)
Q. BEFORE THAT MEETING YESTERDAY, WHEN'S THE LAST
TIME YOU HAD A MEETING WITH ANYBODY ABOUT THE
EVERGLADES OR YOUR WORK IN THIS CASE? AND BY
THAT, I MEAN ANYBODY.
A. I MET WITH -- DONNA CAME HERE A COUPLE MONTHS AGO,
I GUESS. AND IT EITHER WAS THAT OR WHEN I WAS
DOWN AT THE DISTRICT ON OKEECHOBEE. I SPOKE VERY
BRIEFLY ON THE EVERGLADES WITH TOM FONTAINE.
Q. OKAY. NOW, THAT'S -- YOU MENTIONED DONNA AND YOU
MENTIONED TOM FONTAINE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 95
A. YEAH. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER WHICH WAS THE LAST
ONE.
Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT WITH DONNA FIRST,
AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT TOM. WHAT WAS THE
SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR MEETING WITH DONNA?
WITNESS: I HATE TO ADMIT IT, DONNA,
BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT---
Q. SHE MADE A LASTING IMPRESSION ON YOU, RIGHT?
A. MADE A LASTING IMPRESSION.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW ABOUT WITH TOM? DO YOU REMEMBER
THAT?
A. YES. IT WAS TO GET A MEETING WITH BILL WALKER AND
WITH TOM FONTAINE TO RESURRECT THE EVERGLADES
MONITORING TOC SUBCOMMITTEE.
Q. OKAY. BEFORE THAT, CAN YOU REMEMBER ANY MEETINGS
ABOUT THE EVERGLADES OR CONVERSATIONS?
A. I THINK THE LAST MEETING MAY HAVE BEEN SOMETIME
LAST SUMMER. IT WAS PROBABLY THE FIRST MEETING I
HAD ON THIS WORK THAT SONG HAS BEGUN.
Q. AND THAT WAS A MEETING WITH WHOM?
A. I THINK IT INVOLVED SONG AND CURT RICHARDSON AND
ME AND BILL GREEN AND RICK BURGESS.
Q. AND THAT WAS A MEETING UP HERE AT DUKE?
A. YES.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 96
Q. AND TELL ME WHAT THE TOPIC COVERED IN THAT MEETING
WAS -- OR TOPICS.
A. GEE, I DON'T RECALL VERY WELL, BUT I -- WE
OUTLINED -- THAT IS, WE -- SONG AND ME -- WHAT HE
HOPED TO DO ON HIS RESEARCH.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THAT?
A. IN ESSENCE, WHAT I SAID TO YOU, IS TO USE
STATISTICAL METHODS TO LOOK AT WETLANDS TRAPPINGS
OF NUTRIENTS.
Q. IN A PARTICULAR AREA?
A. IN DATA THAT HE COULD OBTAIN, BOTH WCA-2A AS WELL
AS OTHER WETLANDS.
Q. WHAT OTHER WETLANDS BESIDES 2A?
A. THE ONLY THING THAT WE WERE AWARE OF AS A GOOD
DATA SOURCE IS THE WORK THAT KADLEC HAD DONE, I
BELIEVE, FOR THE DISTRICT -- FOR THE NORTH
AMERICAN DATABASE.
Q. OKAY. HOW LONG DID THAT MEETING LAST?
A. I THINK I WAS INVOLVED IN THE MEETING FOR A COUPLE
OF HOURS.
Q. HAVE YOU MET WITH ANY OTHER EXPERT WITNESSES FOR
ANY OF THE FARMING INTERESTS IN THIS CASE?
A. THERE WAS ONE OTHER MEETING I DO REMEMBER. LAST
FALL THERE WAS A MEETING IN DURHAM, AND I CAME FOR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 97
ONLY ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
Q. AND WHO WAS AT THAT MEETING?
A. SEVERAL PEOPLE, AND I DON'T REMEMBER
EVERYONE -- CURT RICHARDSON, BILL GREEN,
PHIL PARSONS -- AND A NUMBER OF SCIENTISTS, AND I
JUST DON'T REMEMBER. I WAS THERE VERY BRIEFLY. I
CAME OVER JUST AT A BREAK. I WAS THERE FOR ABOUT
A HALF HOUR.
Q. DID YOU CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING TO THE MEETING?
A. I TALKED ABOUT THINGS THAT I THOUGHT WE WOULD
DO---
Q. SAME SUBJECT MATTER?
A. ---THROUGH SONG'S RESEARCH. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. NOW, I WAS ASKING YOU IF YOU HAVE MET WITH
ANY OTHER EXPERTS FOR ANY OF THE FARM INTERESTS?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER MEETING WITH ANY.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU MENTIONED THE LAWYERS -- THE
MEETINGS YOU HAD WITH LAWYERS?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. OKAY. I WANT TO GO BACK TO, SAY, A YEAR AND A
HALF AGO WHEN RICK BURGESS CALLED YOU TO ASK YOU
TO CONSULT ON BEHALF OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE---
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO FORM. I THINK
IT MISCHARACTERIZES.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 98
MR. REID: WHICH PART?
MS. STINSON: TESTIMONY. I DON'T
BELIEVE HE TESTIFIED THAT RICK CALLED HIM A
YEAR AND A HALF AGO. I THINK---
MR. REID: THAT'S MY NOTE.
MS. STINSON: OKAY. WELL---
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID RICK BURGESS
CALL YOU AND -- WHEN PEEPLES, EARL ASKED -- AND
ASKED YOU TO BE A CONSULTANT FOR THE SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE? I WROTE DOWN A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
A. IT WAS ABOUT A YEAR AGO THAT I STOPPED WORKING FOR
THEM, ONCE I STARTED WORKING FOR THE DISTRICT.
Q. WELL---
A. I DON'T RECALL WHEN MY INITIAL CONTACT WAS, BUT IT
WAS BEFORE A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
Q. OKAY. WELL, WHENEVER IT WAS---
A. YEAH. TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO.
Q. ---THAT WOULD BE IN YOUR RECORDS THAT YOU HAVE
BACK AT YOUR OFFICE?
A. IT MAY BE. I'M NOT SOMEONE WHO KEEPS THOROUGH
RECORDS, BUT IT MAY BE.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO BACK TO THAT TIME
THEN---
A. YEAH.
††††††††††䄮†⁙䕁䠮ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 99
Q. ---WHEN HE CALLED YOU. TELL ME WHAT HE CALLED YOU
FOR.
A. I HONESTLY DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHY HE CALLED YOU?
A. WELL, I KNOW THAT IT -- I'VE WORKED WITH HIM AS A
SPINOFF OF WORK ON OKEECHOBEE; AT LEAST THAT'S THE
WAY IT APPEARED TO ME. AND I DON'T REMEMBER WHEN
THE FIRST CONTACT WAS, AND WHAT THE NATURE -- WHAT
THE FIRST PIECE OF WORK I DID FOR THEM.
Q. OKAY. NOW, I UNDERSTOOD YOUR LAKE OKEECHOBEE WORK
WAS FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, BUT YOU WERE
RETAINED BY A DIFFERENT LAW FIRM, OR WAS THAT AN
ENGINEERING FIRM THAT RETAINED YOU? I MAY HAVE
GOTTEN MY NOTES -- LANDERS & PARSONS.
A. MY INITIAL CONTACT, WHICH MAY HAVE BEEN FOUR YEARS
AGO, WAS THROUGH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK.
Q. OH, NOW, YOU DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT THAT YET.
A. NO, THAT'S WHAT LED TO THE OKEECHOBEE WORK.
Q. OKAY.
A. THE WORK WAS THROUGH PHIL PARSONS, BUT THE INITIAL
CONTACT WAS THROUGH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK.
Q. OKAY. SO PEEPLES, EARL CALLED YOU TO WORK ON LAKE
OKEECHOBEE ON BEHALF OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. I CAN'T -- DON'T REMEMBER THE SEQUENCE OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 100
ACTIVITIES -- WHO CALLED -- BUT I DO REMEMBER THAT
THE INITIAL CONTACT WAS THROUGH PEEPLES, EARL &
BLANK.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN YOU DID THAT WORK THAT YOU TOLD ME
ABOUT ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE?
A. ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, YES.
Q. AND THEN THAT'S FINISHED?
A. YES.
Q. AND THEN AT SOME POINT SOMEBODY CALLED YOU -- RICK
BURGESS CALLED YOU ABOUT GETTING INVOLVED IN THE
EVERGLADES ISSUES IN SOME MANNER?
A. YEAH. AT SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINES, WE TALKED
ABOUT EVERGLADES ACTIVITY, OR THINGS HAVING TO DO
WITH THE EVERGLADES. I DON'T -- WELL, YEAH. I
WAS GOING TO SAY I DON'T RECALL ACTUALLY WORKING
ON THE EVERGLADES, BUT---
Q. WELL, THIS CONVERSATION WITH RICK BURGESS, WHAT
WAS THE POINT OF THAT CONVERSATION?
A. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T THINK OF A SINGLE
CONVERSATION AS INITIATING THE WORK.
Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT DID YOU -- AT SOME POINT, YOU
STARTED DOING SOME WORK FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE
RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES?
A. YES.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 101
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT WORK?
A. I WAS ASKED TO LOOK AT SOME WORK THAT BILL WALKER
HAD DONE.
Q. AND WHAT, SPECIFICALLY, DID YOU LOOK AT?
A. I LOOKED AT SOME WORK THAT HE HAD DONE ON TREND
DETECTION, AND WATER QUALITY, PARTICULARLY IF, I
GUESS, IT JUST WAS PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION.
Q. WOULD THAT BE IN THE PARK?
A. I DON'T THINK IT WAS IN THE PARK.
Q. BUT IT WAS TREND ANALYSIS THAT HE WAS DOING?
A. YES.
Q. AND IT HAD TO DO WITH PHOSPHORUS?
A. YES.
Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS.
Q. OKAY. AND DID YOU SEE A REPORT?
A. YES.
Q. AND IS THAT THE REPORT THAT HAS YOUR NOTES ON IT
THAT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER?
A. YES.
Q. AND THOSE NOTES WOULD BE YOUR REACTION, YOUR
COMMENTS TO BILL WALKER'S WORK?
A. YES.
Q. AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHEN YOU DID THAT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 102
A. NO, I DO REMEMBER WHEN THAT OCCURRED---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---IN THE SUMMER OF '91.
Q. OKAY. YOU WERE CRITIQUING BILL WALKER'S WORK, IN
EFFECT?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND ONCE YOU CRITIQUED HIS WORK, DID YOU DO
A REPORT OF ANY SORT?
A. I DON'T RECALL DOING A REPORT.
Q. HOW DID YOU REPORT YOUR CRITIQUE?
A. BY PERSONAL CONVERSATION -- BY TELEPHONE
CONVERSATION.
Q. WITH MR. BURGESS?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A
MINUTE---
A. OKAY.
Q. ---BUT HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND ON THAT
PROJECT?
A. SOMEWHERE IN THE ORDER OF A FEW DAYS TO A WEEK.
Q. AND ONCE YOU REPORTED YOUR FINDINGS TO
MR. BURGESS, DID THAT CONCLUDE THE CONSULTING WORK
YOU WERE DOING AT THAT TIME FOR THE LEAGUE?
A. THAT MAY HAVE BEEN PRETTY CLOSE TO THE END OF THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 103
CONSULTING WORK THAT I HAD DONE.
Q. DID YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES REVIEW
BILL WALKER'S WORK?
A. I HAD A -- A FORMER STUDENT LOOKED AT SOME OF THE
CODE THAT BILL WALKER HAD WRITTEN TO DO THE TREND
ANALYSIS. I DIDN'T DO THAT.
Q. WHO'S YOUR FORMER STUDENT?
A. HIS NAME IS BILL WARREN-HICKS
-- WILLIAM WARREN-HICKS.
Q. ONE OF THOSE HYPHENATED NAMES?
A. YES.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU GETTING PAID
BY THE HOUR FOR THAT WORK?
A. YOU KNOW, I DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER IT WAS BY THE
HOUR OR JUST A SET FEE.
Q. THEN YOU WERE DOING THIS AS A PRIVATE CONSULTANT?
A. YES.
Q. AND YOU'D HAVE A RECORD OF YOUR BILLINGS BACK AT
YOUR OFFICE?
A. I PROBABLY HAVE A RECORD BACK AT MY OFFICE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 104
Q. AND HOW MUCH DID YOU GET FOR THIS JOB; DO YOU HAVE
ANY IDEA?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHAT'S THE NEXT THING YOU DID FOR THE
SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
A. I RECALL HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH RICK BURGESS;
WITH JOHN DAVIS. I DON'T REMEMBER THE DETAILS,
AND I DON'T REMEMBER DOING MUCH WORK BEYOND THAT.
Q. NOW, A MINUTE AGO I WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT ALL THE
TIMES YOU HAD MET OR TALKED WITH OTHER EXPERTS.
A. THAT WAS CONCERNING THE EVERGLADES, YEAH.
Q. YEAH. AND SO WITH JOHN DAVIS, YOU DID NOT TALK TO
HIM ABOUT THE EVERGLADES?
A. WHAT YOU ASKED ME ABOUT WAS IN THAT TIME PERIOD,
BASICALLY, SINCE WE STARTED THE PROJECT, AND
THAT'S WHAT I WAS RESPONDING TO.
Q. WELL, THAT WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING. I WANTED TO
KNOW ALL THE MEETINGS AND CONVERSATIONS YOU'VE
EVER HAD ABOUT THE EVERGLADES WITH---
A. I DON'T KNOW THAT WE EVER TALKED ABOUT THE
EVERGLADES. I THINK MOST OF OUR CONVERSATION AT
THAT POINT WAS ABOUT LOXAHATCHEE.
Q. WELL, OKAY. BY EVERGLADES, I MEAN EVERYTHING
SOUTH OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE TO FLORIDA BAY, AND AS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 105
FAR AS IT GOES COAST TO COAST.
A. UH-HUH (YES), OKAY.
Q. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THOUGHT I MEANT BY
EVERGLADES. YOU DON'T CONSIDER LOXAHATCHEE PART
OF THE EVERGLADES?
A. I'M NOT THAT FAMILIAR WITH SOUTH FLORIDA. SO, NO,
I'D THINK OF EVERGLADES AS THE PARK.
Q. OKAY. DOES THAT CHANGE ANY OF YOUR TESTIMONY
TODAY?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY.
MR. FITZGERALD: WE MAY NEED A
STIPULATION ON THE DEFINITION OF THE
SWIM PLAN SO WE'RE ALL PLAYING OFF THE
SAME CARDS.
MR. REID: I KNOW. OKAY.
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. WHAT DID YOU TALK TO
JOHN DAVIS ABOUT?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE SPECIFICS. IT, NO DOUBT, WAS
CONCERNING CONCLUSIONS IN THE REVIEW OF
BILL WALKER'S REPORT.
Q. THE SAME REPORT THAT YOU CRITIQUED?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY.
†奅匮ഊഊ††††††††††儮†⁏䭁央ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 106
A. AND IT ALSO, AS I RECALL, RELATED TO DISCUSSION OF
CONCENTRATIONS OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE CANALS AND
CONCENTRATIONS INSIDE THE LOXAHATCHEE.
Q. AND WERE YOU DRAWING CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THAT?
A. NO.
Q. WAS HE?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. WHAT WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
A. IT JUST WAS GENERAL DISCUSSION. I NEVER GOT
HEAVILY INVOLVED IN THAT WORK.
Q. OKAY. ANYBODY ELSE -- ANY OTHER CONVERSATIONS OR
MEETINGS WITH ANY EXPERTS?
A. ANY EXPERTS SOUTH OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE?
Q. CONCERNING THIS CASE OR THE BROADER EVERGLADES.
A. I HAD A PHONE CONVERSATION, LASTED ABOUT FIVE
MINUTES -- I THINK IT WAS LAST FALL -- WITH A
CONSULTANT FROM TETRA TECH, WHO ASKED ME ABOUT OUR
MODEL. AND I TOLD HIM WE HAD NO MODEL.
Q. WHO WAS THAT?
A. THE NAME'S RIGHT ON THE TIP OF MY TONGUE AND I
JUST DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. WHEN WAS THE CONVERSATION?
A. I BELIEVE IT WAS LAST FALL.
Q. OKAY.
†坈䕎⁗䅓⁔䡅⁃低噅剓䅔䥏丿ഊഊ††††††††††䄮†⁉⁂䕌䥅噅⁉吠坁匠䱁協⁆䅌䰮ഊഊ††††††††††儮†⁏䭁央ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 107
MR. FITZGERALD: FOR THE SAKE OF MOVING
THAT ALONG---
MR. REID: YES.
MR. FITZGERALD: ---COULD I SUGGEST
MUNSON?
WITNESS: MUNSON, YEAH.
MR. REID: OKAY.
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. ANY OTHER
CONVERSATIONS?
A. I TALKED TO BILL WALKER OFF AND ON.
Q. UH-HUH (YES), OKAY. ANYBODY ELSE?
A. OTHER THAN SCIENTISTS AT THE DISTRICT, NO. I JUST
DON'T REMEMBER ANY.
Q. RIGHT NOW, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS ONE
CONSULTING JOB YOU DID FOR THE LEAGUE, AND I WAS
MOVING AHEAD. ASIDE FROM THESE CONVERSATIONS
YOU'VE RELATED, AND YOUR REVIEW OF WALKER'S WORK,
DID YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT CONSULTING WORK
FOR THE LEAGUE?
MS. STINSON: EXCUSE ME. WOULD YOU
READ BACK THAT QUESTION?
(THEREUPON, THE QUESTION APPEARING
ON PAGE 107, LINES 15 - 20, INCLUSIVE,
WAS REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 108
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO FORM.
MR. REID: YOU CAN ANSWER.
MR. RUSSELL: DO YOU UNDERSTAND -- I'M
JUST GOING TO INSTRUCT THE WITNESS TO ANSWER
TO THE EXTENT THAT IT DOESN'T -- IT GOES
BEYOND GENERAL WORK INVOLVED IN THE
CONSULTATION.
MR. REID: WELL, I WANT TO KNOW EVERY
BIT OF WORK THAT HE'S EVER DONE FOR THE SUGAR
CANE LEAGUE, AND THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT HOW
MUCH I CAN FIND OUT ABOUT IT, BUT I WANT TO
BE SURE HE TELLS ME ABOUT ANY WORK HE'S DONE
FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
MR. RUSSELL: IT SEEMED TO ME THAT, YOU
KNOW, BASED ON YOUR QUESTION, THAT YOU WERE
TALKING ABOUT THIS SAME CONSULTATION. IF
IT'S SOMETHING ELSE -- AND HE'S ALREADY
EXPLAINED THAT. IF IT'S SOMETHING ELSE,
THEN THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION.
MR. REID: WELL, I'M HAVING TROUBLE
UNDERSTANDING. WE'RE NOT COMMUNICATING
CLEARLY ON WHEN A CONSULTING JOB STARTS AND
STOPS.
Q. (BY MR. REID) DO YOU CONSIDER, FOR INSTANCE, YOUR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 109
TALK WITH JOHN DAVIS, PART OF CONSULTING WORK FOR
THE LEAGUE?
A. IT DEPENDS. IF IT'S A PHONE CALL -- AND IN TERMS
OF WHETHER I BILL FOR THAT TIME -- NO, I DON'T.
Q. ALL RIGHT.
A. BUT I LOOK AT CONSULTING JOBS MORE FROM THE
PERSPECTIVE OF HAVING A BEGINNING WITH A TASK, A
CONTRACT, AND THEN A COMPLETION POINT.
Q. OKAY. AND YOUR FIRST CONSULTING JOB, OR THE ONE
WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, IS YOUR JOB AS TO REVIEW
BILL WALKER'S WORK AND CRITIQUE IT, AND YOU
FINISHED THAT.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. IS THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
Q. WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE,
AFTER THAT?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE I DID ANYTHING ELSE THAT WAS ON A
CONTRACT BASIS WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
Q. DID YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE THAT WASN'T ON A CONTRACT
BASIS?
A. I HAD OCCASIONAL CONVERSATIONS, IT SEEMS TO ME,
WITH RICK BURGESS AND WITH JOHN DAVIS, BUT IT
NEVER WAS PART OF ANY PROJECT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 110
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS?
A. I DON'T RECALL. I DIDN'T INITIATE THEM.
Q. SO, UP THROUGH TODAY, YOU'VE TOLD ME ALL THE WORK
YOU'VE DONE FOR THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE,
EVER?
A. EVERYTHING THAT I CAN REMEMBER.
Q. OKAY. NOW, HAVE YOU DONE ANY WORK, EVER, FOR THE
HOPPING, BOYD FIRM, OR FOR THE COOPERATIVE?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT I HAVE FOR THE COOPERATIVE.
I CAN'T ALWAYS CLEARLY IDENTIFY THE DIFFERENT
GROUPS. AND I HAVE NOT DONE ANY WORK FOR HOPPING
BOYD.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS YOUR REASON FOR MEETING WITH
MS. STINSON?
A. THAT MEETING A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO THAT WE
REFERRED TO?
Q. THAT ONE AND YESTERDAY AND THIS MORNING?
A. THEY'VE LISTED ME AS AN EXPERT WITNESS, AND I'M
HERE.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAVE NO FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS WITH
THEM ABOUT YOUR WORK AS AN EXPERT WITNESS?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND DO YOU PLAN TO HAVE ANY?
A. NO.
†䄠䑎䐠⁏余⁕䱐乁吠⁏䅈䕖䄠奎ിഊ †††††††††䄠†低മ
†䅎䐠䑏⁙何⁐䱁丠呏⁈䅖䔠䅎夿ഊഊ††††††††††䄮†⁎伮ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 111
Q. SO, THIS IS ALL FREE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU PLAN TO TESTIFY FOR THEM AT THIS
HEARING IF THEY ASK YOU TO?
A. I HAVEN'T DECIDED.
Q. THEY TOLD YOU THAT THEY'VE LISTED YOU AS AN EXPERT
WITNESS?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S OKAY WITH YOU?
A. YES. RIGHT NOW, IT IS, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. NOW, DID YOU EVER SEE THE NOTICE OF
DEPOSITION THAT WAS ISSUED FOR YOU IN THIS CASE?
A. YES.
Q. AND DID YOU GO OVER THE DOCUMENT LISTINGS THAT
WERE ATTACHED TO IT?
A. THAT'S WHAT WE MET ON. OKAY, I REMEMBER.
Q. ALL RIGHT.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. WELL, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THOSE, AND I'VE
ASKED FOR A CURRENT CV, AND I HAVE ONE THAT WE
LOOKED AT A MINUTE AGO. IS THAT CURRENT -- IF WE
STRUCK THE WORD "RESEARCH" FROM ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR, THAT WOULD BE---
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 112
A. I HAVE ONE THAT LOOKS VERY SIMILAR TO THIS THAT
HAS A FEW UPDATED PUBLICATIONS ON IT.
MR. REID: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET'S
JUST MARK THIS AS -- WE'RE MARKING SEPARATELY
IN EACH DEPOSITION, AREN'T WE?
OKAY. LET'S MARK THAT. THAT'S MY ONLY
COPY. FOR SOME REASON, I DIDN'T GET AN EXTRA
COPY OF THAT.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO ABOVE WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 1 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. REID: THANK YOU. THAT WILL BE
EXHIBIT 1.
Q. (BY MR. REID) ITEM TWO ASKS FOR ALL DOCUMENTS
WHICH REFLECT OR RELATE TO YOUR PROFESSIONAL
BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP AND RETENTION
BY -- AND IT LISTS A GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS AND
LAW FIRMS. I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE DOCUMENTS
THAT I RECEIVED THAT HAD THESE TYPE DOCUMENTS. DO
SUCH DOCUMENTS EXIST? IF YOU WILL LOOK AT NUMBER
TWO.
MS. STINSON: WE HAVE WITHHELD AS
PRIVILEGED DOCUMENTS RELATING TO THE WORK
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 113
HE DID FOR THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE THAT HE HAS
DESCRIBED TO YOU IN THIS DEPOSITION.
MR. REID: HIS CRITIQUE OF BILL WALKER'S
WORK -- THAT WORK, YOU MEAN?
MS. STINSON: THAT WAS PRODUCED
INADVERTENTLY. THERE ARE OTHER DOCUMENTS
THAT HAVE NOT BEEN PRODUCED THAT WERE
WITHHELD AS PRIVILEGED---
MR. REID: OKAY.
MS. STINSON: ---ON THAT.
MR. REID: HAD -- I FORGOT, DO WE HAVE
THAT LIST -- THE PRIVILEGED LIST? I HAVEN'T
SEEN IT.
MS. STINSON: OKAY.
MR. FITZGERALD: WE DO NOT HAVE THE
LIST.
MR. REID: OKAY. WELL, LET'S WORK
THROUGH THE LIST HERE, AND THEN WE'LL COME
BACK TO IT. AND JUST FOR THE RECORD, LET ME
MARK THE DUCES TECUM, NOTICE OF TAKING
DEPOSITION DUCES TECUM AND THE ATTACHMENT AS
EXHIBIT TWO.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 114
EXHIBIT NO. 2 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) DO YOU HAVE ANY DOCUMENTS THAT ARE
CALLED FOR IN PARAGRAPH 2?
A. THAT'S REFERRING TO---
MR. McCAUGHAN: DO YOU HAVE A COPY
OF THAT EXHIBIT?
MR. REID: HE JUST READ IT.
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY.
MR. REID: I'LL WALK AROUND. I CAN JUST
LOOK OVER HIS SHOULDER.
WITNESS: SURE.
MR. FITZGERALD: WHEN YOU GET THROUGH
WITH THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING, CAN WE TAKE A
SHORT BREAK?
MR. REID: YEAH, LET'S DO THAT---
WITNESS: CAN WE TAKE A BREAK NOW?
MR. REID: ---LET'S TAKE A SHORT BREAK.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 115
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES:
Q. ALL RIGHT. WE'RE LOOKING AT EXHIBIT NUMBER TWO.
MR. FITZGERALD: DID WE MARK THE
RESUME AS ONE?
MR. REID: ONE, YEAH.
Q. NOW, LOOK AT PARAGRAPH TWO, AND TELL ME IF YOU
HAVE ANY DOCUMENTS THAT ARE CALLED FOR IN THAT
PARAGRAPH. I DIDN'T SEE ANY IN WHAT WAS PRODUCED
TO ME.
MS. STINSON: EXCUSE ME. WHAT NUMBER?
WITNESS: RIGHT HERE.
MR. REID: TWO.
MS. STINSON: TWO.
MR. RUSSELL: YEAH. I THINK THAT'S THE
ONE HE ALREADY ASKED.
A. YEAH. I'M SURE I DO.
MR. REID: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL,
WE NEED TO GET A COPY OF THOSE AS SOON AS
WE CAN.
MS. STINSON: THOSE -- WELL, LET ME
GO -- PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ASK HIM PARTICULAR
ENTITIES, BUT THOSE WITH RESPECT TO THE
LEAGUE AND ITS AFFILIATED ENTITIES, WE HAVE
WITHHELD AS PRIVILEGED.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 116
Q. (BY MR. REID) WELL, CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU
HAVE, ENTITY BY ENTITY?
A. I CAN TRY. I DON'T THINK I HAVE ANYTHING -- LET'S
SEE -- "PROFESSIONAL, BUSINESS, OR FINANCIAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH AND RETENTION BY" -- I DON'T
HAVE ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE FOR THE COOPERATIVE,
ROTH FARMS, WEDGWORTH FARMS. I HAVE THINGS
ASSOCIATED WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE. I HAVE
THINGS ASSOCIATED WITH PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK. I
GUESS THAT'S IT.
MR. REID: WELL, WHENEVER WE GET
THIS -- I ASSUME ALL THAT WILL BE ON YOUR
PRIVILEGED LIST?
MS. STINSON: CORRECT.
MR. REID: AND WHEN WE GET THE
PRIVILEGE LIST, WE'LL SEE THEM AND WE'LL DEAL
WITH THEM.
MS. STINSON: OKAY.
MR. REID: LET ME JUST MAKE SURE I
UNDERSTAND. YOU'RE SAYING THAT THE
CONSULTING WORK THAT HE DID FOR THE LEAGUE,
WHICH WAS A CRITIQUE OF BILL WALKER'S WORK,
IS PROTECTED BECAUSE YOU'VE WITHDRAWN HIM AS
AN EXPERT NOW?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 117
MR. RUSSELL: NO, NO. HE IS PROTECTED
BECAUSE AND HE WAS A NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT IN
A PREVIOUS PROCEEDING IN A FEDERAL LAWSUIT.
HE WAS A NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT, CONSULTED
WITH THE LEAGUE ON THAT, AND THOSE DOCUMENTS
WERE PROTECTED AND CONTINUE TO BE PROTECTED.
AND ALSO, IN ADDITION, AS HE STATED BEFORE,
THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS WORK AND HIS
TESTIMONY AS AN EXPERT WITNESS IN THIS
PROCEEDING.
MR. REID: BUT, JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR,
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HIS CRITIQUE OF
BILL WALKER'S REPORT?
MR. RUSSELL: CORRECT.
MR. REID: AND BY THAT, WE MEAN WATER
QUALITY TRENDS AT INFLOWS TO EVERGLADES
NATIONAL PARK? THAT'S THE NAME OF THE
PAPER---
MR. RUSSELL: IS THAT THE NAME OF IT?
Q. (BY MR. REID) IS THAT THE NAME OF THE PAPER THAT
YOU CRITIQUED?
A. CAN I SEE THAT?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. YEAH.
††††††††††䄮†⁙䕁䠮ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 118
MR. RUSSELL: AND THAT'S THE REPORT,
OBVIOUSLY, A REDACTED VERSION'S FINE, BUT THE
REPORT WITH NOTES ARE WHAT WE'VE ASKED FOR
BACK TODAY.
Q. (BY MR. REID) WELL, DID YOU ALSO LOOK AT
THE -- THERE'S A SECOND BILL WALKER REPORT,
"REFINEMENTS TO PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE RELATIONSHIP"
AND SO FORTH. DID YOU CRITIQUE THAT ONE AS WELL?
A. YEAH, I DID.
MR. REID: ALL RIGHT. JUST FOR THE
RECORD, LET'S MARK THE FIRST BILL WALKER
SEPTEMBER, 1990, "WATER QUALITY TRENDS AT
INFLOWS TO EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK" AS
EXHIBIT THREE, AND THIS IS THE VERSION WITH
THE HANDWRITTEN NOTES.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO ABOVE WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 3 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. RUSSELL: AM I ASSUMING THEN---
MR. REID: WELL, THE PROBLEM YOU'VE GOT
IS THAT THERE ARE COPIES ARE EVERYWHERE. YOU
KNOW, AT THIS POINT, I CAN'T GIVE YOU BACK
ALL THE COPIES, BECAUSE UNTIL THIS MINUTE,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 119
WE HAD NO IDEA THAT YOU CONSIDERED THAT
PRIVILEGED. I'M NOT SURE IT CAN BE, AND
WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MINUTE.
MR. RUSSELL: WE JUST FOUND THAT
INFORMATION OUT IN PREPARING FOR HIS
TESTIMONY, AS WE SAID, WITHIN THE LAST TWO
DAYS.
MR. REID: SO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU
WANT ME TO DO. I MEAN, I CAN GIVE YOU THIS
ONE BACK, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY HELP, BECAUSE
I KNOW THERE ARE COPIES ALL AROUND. I MEAN,
THESE WERE PRODUCED AND ALL OF THE PARTIES
COPIED THEM, AND THEY'VE GONE ALL OVER.
MR. RUSSELL: HOW MANY COPIES WERE
PRODUCED, COUNSEL, DO YOU REMEMBER?
MR. REID: WELL, NO. YOU PRODUCED THEM,
AND THEN ALL THE DEFENDANTS -- I MEAN, ALL
THE RESPONDENTS IN THE CASE MAY HAVE GOTTEN
COPIES. I'VE MADE SEVERAL COPIES. I'VE GOT
A WORKING COPY, YOU KNOW.
MR. FITZGERALD: I HAVE COPIES OFF TO
WASHINGTON ALREADY.
MR. REID: YEAH, I MEAN, AND OUR EXPERTS
ARE LOOKING AT THEM, AND SO FORTH.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 120
MR. FITZGERALD: ON THE PLUS SIDE, WE
CAN'T READ SOME OF THE NOTATIONS.
MR. REID: I WILL TELL YOU I'LL DO THIS;
DURING THIS ROUND OF THE DEPOSITION, I WILL
NOT EXAMINE THE WITNESS ON THE HANDWRITTEN
NOTES. I'LL DO THAT THE NEXT ROUND.
MR. FITZGERALD: WE HAD BETTER THINK
ABOUT THAT OVERNIGHT, BECAUSE I HAVE A FEW
POINTS I'D LIKE TO DISCUSS WITH THE WITNESS
REGARDING HIS---
MS. STINSON: OKAY. NO, THIS---
MR. FITZGERALD: ---WE'RE GOING TO HAVE
TO THINK ABOUT THAT. WE'LL FIGURE THAT
TOMORROW.
MR. RUSSELL: I GUESS MY QUESTION
IS -- WELL, NOT THAT I AM SO CONCERNED
WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL BE CONTINUED OR NOT.
DID YOU PLAN ON CONTINUING THE DEPOSITION, IN
ANY EVENT THEN?
MS. STINSON: WE'VE EXPECTED THAT THERE
WILL BE A CONTINUATION.
MR. RUSSELL: OKAY, OKAY. WELL---
MR. FITZGERALD: BASED ON THIS LETTER, I
THINK---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 121
MR. RUSSELL: OKAY, THAT'S FINE.
MR. REID: WELL, NO, NO. LET'S JUST GET
IT ON THE RECORD, JUST SO IT'S CLEAR. WE'RE
CONTINUING IT BECAUSE IT WAS ORIGINALLY
SCHEDULED TO START AT 9:00 TODAY AND IT WAS
BLOCKED OFF FOR TWO DAYS. WE MOVED IT -- TWO
DAYS AGO WE FOUND OUT THAT DR. RECKHOW HAD A
CLASS THIS MORNING, SO WE STARTED AT 12:30,
APPROXIMATELY. WE ALSO DISCOVERED TODAY,
WHEN WE GOT HERE, THAT HE HAS TO LEAVE AT
4:00 TODAY. WE ALSO LEARNED THAT COUNSEL HAS
TO LEAVE TOMORROW AT NOON. SO, THAT'S WHY
IT'S GOING TO BE CONTINUED, NOT -- YOU KNOW,
THERE'S NO QUESTION AS -- OKAY.
MR. RUSSELL: THE POINT IS, IF IT'S
NECESSARY, THAT'S ALL.
MR. REID: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND NOW
LET'S MARK, AS EXHIBIT FOUR, DR. WALKER'S
REPORT DATED AUGUST 28, 1992, WHICH THE
WITNESS PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED AS HAVING
CRITIQUED.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO ABOVE WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 4 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 122
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
(THEREUPON, WITNESS CONFERS WITH MS. STINSON.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. LOOK AT PARAGRAPH 3 IN
THE EXHIBIT 2.
A. OKAY.
WITNESS: THAT'S THIS RIGHT HERE?
MS. STINSON: YEAH.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY DOCUMENTS THAT ARE DESCRIBED IN
PARAGRAPH 3?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT HAS
ALREADY BEEN PRODUCED.
Q. OKAY. AND WE'LL BE MARKING THESE AND GOING
THROUGH THEM LATER. ALL RIGHT, LOOK AT NUMBER 4
PLEASE. SAME QUESTION.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. SAME ANSWER. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING.
Q. SO, THERE ARE NO OTHER DOCUMENTS EXCEPT FOR WHAT
YOU'VE PRODUCED, AND YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS
STACK OF DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN PRODUCED; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. YOU'RE NOT RELYING ON ANYTHING ELSE IN
SUPPORT OF ANY OPINIONS OR CONCLUSIONS OR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 123
TESTIMONY THAT YOU EXPECT TO GIVE?
A. I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO BE A
BASIS FOR TESTIMONY, AT THIS POINT, OTHER THAN
THINGS THAT WE'VE PRODUCED.
Q. OKAY. LOOK AT NUMBER 5 PLEASE, AND ANSWER THE
SAME QUESTION.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. THE SAME ANSWER.
Q. HOW ABOUT NUMBER 6?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING -- I DON'T ANTICIPATE
ANYTHING THERE.
Q. OKAY. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THIS ABOUT ALL THE
REMAINING ONES. IF YOU'D LIKE TO TAKE A SECOND,
JUST SKIM THROUGH THE REST.
A. OKAY.
Q. THAT'D BE 7 THROUGH 14, IF YOU'LL LOOK THOUGH
THAT.
A. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. WITH REGARD TO 9, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THAT HANDOUT
THAT I USED IN DECISION ANALYSIS MIGHT FIT IN.
Q. AND YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY OF THAT HANDY?
A. NO.
†䄠䑎夠問䐠乏吧䠠噁⁅⁁佃奐传⁆䡔呁䠠乁奄ിഊ †††††††††䄠†低മ
†䅎䐠奏唠䑏丧吠䡁噅⁁⁃佐夠但⁔䡁吠䡁乄夿ഊഊ††††††††††䄮†⁎伮ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 124
Q. CAN YOU TRY TO FIND ONE BEFORE---
MR. REID: WILL YOU LET HIM GIVE
THAT TO ME, OR WILL YOU GIVE IT TO ME?
MS. STINSON: I BELIEVE SO.
MR. REID: OKAY, SURE.
MR. FITZGERALD: SIR, AND JUST
FOR CLARIFICATION, WAS THE WITNESS
REFERRING TO HIS CLASS HANDOUT ON
DECISION MAKING?
WITNESS: YES.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. NO, I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ELSE THAT FITS.
Q. (BY MR. REID) MEANING YOU DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER
DOCUMENTS THAT ARE CALLED FOR BY ANY OF THOSE
PARAGRAPHS OTHER THAN WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN
PRODUCED?
A. NOT THAT I CAN RECALL.
Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU WERE ORIGINALLY DESIGNATED AS AN
EXPERT IN THIS CASE BY THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE.
WERE YOU AWARE OF THAT?
A. I GUESS I PROBABLY WAS, YEAH.
Q. DID ANYBODY DISCUSS WITH YOU THE SUMMARY OF YOUR
OPINIONS THAT WAS FILED IN THIS RECORD ON BEHALF
OF THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 125
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. IT WAS REPRESENTED THAT
YOU WOULD TESTIFY TO THE FOLLOWING SUBJECT MATTER:
EPA PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE, STA'S, STATISTICS,
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION LIMITS, WATER QUALITY
TRENDS AND WATER QUANTITY. DO YOU RECALL EVER
BEING TOLD THAT OR THAT THAT WAS BEING FILED?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINIONS, AS YOU SIT HERE
TODAY, ON ANY OF THOSE AREAS?
A. CAN YOU READ THEM AGAIN?
Q. I WILL. EPA PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE---
A. THAT'S THE EVERGLADES PROTECTION AREA, EPA?
Q. RIGHT.
A. OKAY. NO.
Q. STA'S?
A. NO.
Q. STATISTICS?
A. THAT'S PRETTY BROAD. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT'S
REFERRING TO?
Q. WELL, LET'S SKIP THAT WORD FOR RIGHT NOW.
A. OKAY.
Q. WE'LL COME BACK TO THAT.
A. OKAY.
Q. PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION LIMITS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 126
A. NO.
Q. WATER QUALITY TRENDS?
A. WATER QUALITY TRENDS WHERE?
Q. I ASSUME IN THE EVERGLADES, THE BROADER
EVERGLADES.
A. NOTHING THAT I CAN SPEAK ABOUT RIGHT NOW. I THINK
THE COMMENTS ON THAT MANUSCRIPT OF BILL WALKER'S
ARE THE BEST REFLECTION OF WHAT I THOUGHT AT THAT
TIME I WROTE THOSE.
Q. OKAY. AND THE FINAL ONE IS WATER QUANTITY.
A. NO.
Q. NOW, ARE YOU IN THE PROCESS, OR DO YOU HAVE ANY
PLANS TO DEVELOP ANY OPINIONS RELATING TO ANY OF
THOSE SUBJECT MATTERS?
A. I EXPECT THAT THROUGH THE WORK WITH THE WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, THE MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE
WITH BILL WALKER, THAT SOMETHING MIGHT COME OUT OF
THAT ACTIVITY. I ALSO EXPECT THAT FROM
SONG QIAN'S DISSERTATION WE MIGHT HAVE SOME
CONCLUSIONS WHEN THAT'S COMPLETED.
Q. OKAY. WHICH PARTICULAR AREAS DO YOU ANTICIPATE
GETTING OR DEVELOPING OPINIONS AS A RESULT OF YOUR
WORK WITH THE TOC?
A. I THINK -- I DON'T KNOW AS I WILL HAVE OPINIONS.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 127
I HOPE THAT I WILL HAVE A SENSE OF THE SCIENCE IN
SUPPORT OF VARIOUS OPTIONS THAT ARE CONSIDERED
WITH REGARDS TO PHOSPHORUS LIMITS.
Q. WHEN DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT YOU'LL HAVE THESE?
A. I DON'T KNOW. UNFORTUNATELY, MY WORK WITH THE
MONITORING SUBCOMMITTEE WAS INTENSE LAST MAY,
JUNE, JULY, AND HAS PRETTY MUCH FADED SINCE THEN.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY ARE YET.
Q. OKAY. SO, ASSUMING THAT THAT STARTS AGAIN, AND
ASSUMING YOU'RE INVOLVED, YOU WOULD EXPECT AT SOME
POINT IN THE FUTURE TO HAVE SOME---
A. SENSE OF THE SCIENCE IN SUPPORT OF VARIOUS
OPTIONS.
Q. AS OPPOSED TO OPINIONS ABOUT?
A. OPINIONS TO ME MEAN THAT I HAVE A PREFERENCE OR A
STRATEGY.
Q. RIGHT. AND YOU DON'T EXPECT THAT?
A. I DON'T THINK THAT'S MY ROLE.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHAT ABOUT SONG'S WORK?
A. SAME THING WITH SONG'S WORK. I EXPECT THAT FROM
SONG'S WORK, WHICH WILL BE A DISSERTATION, IN
MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS OF A DOCTORAL
DISSERTATION, THAT FROM THAT WE WILL DRAW
CONCLUSIONS ON THE NATURE OF THE SCIENCE IN
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 128
SUPPORT OF STA DESIGN.
Q. HE'S GOING TO BE LOOKING AT WCA-2A?
A. HE'S GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THOSE DATA, YEAH.
Q. AND YOU EXPECT THAT FROM THAT DATA, HE WILL BE
ABLE TO REACH CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE STA DESIGN?
A. I MENTIONED ALSO THAT HE'LL BE LOOKING AT THE
NORTH AMERICAN---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---DATABASE.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN THOSE TWO -- LOOKING AT THAT DATA,
YOU BELIEVE HE WILL BE ABLE TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS
THAT WILL BE HELPFUL IN DESIGNING THE STA'S?
A. I HOPE THAT HE WILL BE ABLE TO SAY "WHAT IS THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHOSPHORUS INPUT AND
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION LEAVING A WETLAND AND
OTHER FEATURES OF THE WETLAND SUCH AS DESIGN OR
DEPTH AND HYDRAULICS" THAT WILL BE USEFUL IN
DESIGNING WETLANDS FOR NUTRIENT TRAPS.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU KNOW WHERE THE STA'S ARE PROPOSED
TO BE BUILT?
A. I COULDN'T POINT IT OUT, NO. I KNEW AT ONE TIME.
Q. OKAY. IT'S IN THE FARMING AREA?
A. YEAH.
Q. YOU KNEW THAT, DIDN'T YOU?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 129
A. IF YOU HAD ASKED ME, I WOULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT
THAT WAS NECESSARILY THE CASE, BUT IT SEEMS
REASONABLE WITH WHAT I UNDERSTOOD THE QUOTE.
Q. OKAY. AND SO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN USE THE WCA-2A
DATA TO ASSIST IN DESIGNING STA'S THAT WILL BE
BUILT IN THE EPA -- I'M SORRY. IN THE
AGRICULTURAL AREA?
A. LET ME REPEAT. I HOPE THAT WITH THE WCA-2A DATA
AND THE NORTH AMERICAN DATA, WE WILL UNDERSTAND
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE INFLOW CONCENTRATION
OF PHOSPHORUS OR THE LOANING OF PHOSPHORUS AND THE
OUTFLOW CONCENTRATION AND OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE
IMPORTANT, SUCH AS DEPTH AND HYDRAULICS.
Q. FOR PURPOSES OF DESIGNING STA'S?
A. FOR PROVIDING GUIDANCE IN UNDERSTANDING THE
EFFECTIVENESS OF WETLANDS AS PHOSPHORUS OR AS
NUTRIENT TRAPS.
Q. WELL, WHERE DO STA'S COME IN, THE ONES THAT ARE
PROPOSED IN THE SWIM PLAN?
A. I DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS OF THE STA'S. I THINK OF
STA'S AS WETLANDS DESIGNED TO OR INTENDED TO TRAP
NUTRIENTS.
Q. SO WHAT I'M TRYING TO DISCOVER IS -- STRIKE THAT.
YOU'RE AWARE THAT THIS PROCEEDING THAT WE'RE IN IS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 130
A CHALLENGE TO THE SWIM PLAN THAT PROPOSES TO
BUILD STA'S AT SPECIFIC SITES IN THE AGRICULTURAL
AREA?
A. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE DETAILS OF THE
CHALLENGE.
Q. WELL, ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE CHALLENGE INVOLVES
WHAT I JUST SAID, THAT THE SWIM PLAN INVOLVES WHAT
I JUST SAID?
A. I'M AWARE THAT THAT'S AN ASPECT OF IT, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. AND SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND.
YOU'RE NOT -- YOU DON'T EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO OFFER
OPINIONS WITH REGARDS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE STA'S
WILL WORK, FOR INSTANCE?
A. I DON'T THINK IT'S MY JOB TO OFFER OPINIONS AS TO
WHETHER SOMETHING LIKE THAT WILL WORK.
Q. OKAY. AND ASSUMING THAT -- IS IT LIKELY THAT
SONG'S DISSERTATION WILL BE APPROVED, I THINK YOU
SAID THE END OF THE SUMMER?
A. HIS PROPOSAL.
Q. HIS PROPOSAL?
A. YES.
Q. AND---
A. I HOPE SO, HE'S A GOOD STUDENT.
Q. AND ASSUMING THAT IT'S THE BEST CASE, BEST CRACK,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 131
ASSUMING IT'S APPROVED, WHEN WOULD IT BE
COMPLETED?
A. END OF CALENDAR YEAR '94.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IT WAS ALSO REPRESENTED BY THE SUGAR
CANE LEAGUE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE OPINIONS IN THESE
AREAS FINALIZED BY FEBRUARY 28, 1993. I ASSUME
THAT'S INACCURATE.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. NOW, YOU'VE ALSO -- STRIKE THAT. IS IT
FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU DON'T PLAN TO DO ANYTHING
INDEPENDENTLY, YOURSELF, IN REACHING ANY OF THESE
CONCLUSIONS, BUT RATHER YOU'RE GOING TO RELY ON
THE WORK THAT SONG DOES?
A. I'M GOING TO WORK WITH SONG AS HIS ADVISOR.
Q. OKAY. YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE DOING ANY
INDEPENDENT WORK YOURSELF?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I'M ON SABBATICAL NEXT YEAR, AND
WILL BE DOING STATISTICAL ANALYSIS LIKE WHAT HE
DOES, AND IT MAY BE THAT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE
DOES, I WILL BE WORKING ALONG SIDE HIM. I HAVEN'T
DECIDED THAT YET.
Q. YOU HAVE NO PLANS AT THIS POINT TO DO THAT?
A. I HAVE NO PLANS EITHER WAY.
Q. OKAY. WHEN A STUDENT DOES A DISSERTATION THOUGH,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 132
IS IT UNDERSTOOD THAT IT'S PRINCIPALLY THEIR WORK?
A. IT VARIES.
Q. IN THIS CASE.
A. IN THIS CASE, THE WORK WILL BE HIS. HE WILL BE
ABLE TO DESCRIBE IT THOROUGHLY AND DEFEND IT.
MY PHILOSOPHY IS THAT I HAD BETTER BE ABLE TO DO
THE SAME -- DESCRIBE IT, DEFINE IT, UNDERSTAND IT.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU WILL NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE
DOES?
A. YES.
Q. WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM DOING IT YOURSELF?
A. I WON'T DO IT MYSELF.
Q. OKAY.
A. THAT'S CLEAR.
Q. NOW, YOU'RE ALSO LISTED AS AN EXPERT BY THE
COOPERATIVE. YOU'RE AWARE OF THAT?
A. THAT'S THE GROUP -- YEAH.
Q. MS. STINSON'S CLIENTS.
A. YES, YES.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND I WANT TO GO OVER WHAT
THEY'VE REPRESENTED THAT YOU'RE GOING TO TESTIFY
REGARDING AND SO FORTH. MATHEMATICAL ANALYSIS OF
PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE IN THE EPA AND WETLAND TREATMENT
AREAS.
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DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 133
A. I CAN TALK ABOUT STATISTICAL METHODS THAT COULD BE
USED.
Q. LET ME ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN. IT'S REPRESENTED
THAT THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR TESTIMONY -- IT'S
NOT JUST STATISTICAL METHODS, IT'S THE SPECIFIC
APPLICATION OF THOSE METHODS -- MATHEMATICAL
ANALYSIS OF PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE IN THE EPA AND THE
WETLAND TREATMENT AREAS.
A. I CANNOT TALK ABOUT SPECIFIC ANALYSIS DONE ON
THAT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE ANY PLANS TO UNDERTAKE ANY
WORK TO DEVELOP OPINIONS IN THAT AREA?
A. NOT OPINIONS. I PLAN TO, THROUGH SONG, BE PART OF
THE ANALYSIS.
Q. OKAY. BUT NOW, HE'S NOT ANALYZING THE WETLAND
TREATMENT AREAS?
A. NO. YOU MAY HAVE TO DEFINE THE AREAS AND HELP ME
OUT, BUT AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, HE'S GOING TO BE
LOOKING AT WCA-2A DATA AND THE NORTH AMERICAN DATA
SET.
Q. I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I'M UNDERSTANDING WETLAND---
A. OKAY.
Q. ---TREATMENT AREAS TO BE SYNONYMOUS WITH STA'S.
A. THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL ENTITY OF AN STA?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 134
Q. YES.
MR. REID: AM I INCORRECT, OR DO
YOU KNOW?
MS. STINSON: I DON'T KNOW.
MR. REID: OKAY.
Q. (BY MR. REID) I DON'T KNOW OF ANYWHERE ELSE THAT
THIS CASE INVOLVES ANY TREATMENT---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---EXCEPT IN WHAT WE'RE CALLING STA'S.
A. WE WILL TRY---
MR. FITZGERALD: I MAY BE ABLE TO
CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING THAT WILL CLARIFY THAT
IF COUNSEL WILL---
MR. REID: SURE.
MR. FITZGERALD: ---A PRIOR ITERATION OF
THE SWIM PLAN USED THE TERM WATER MANAGEMENT
AREA.
MR. REID: BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT.
MR. McCAUGHAN: EXCUSE ME. THERE HAS
BEEN TESTIMONY, I BELIEVE, IN OTHER
DEPOSITIONS FROM VARIOUS SCIENTISTS, WHO, AS
DR. RECKHOW HAS INDICATED, CONSIDER A WHOLE
NATURAL AREA AS AN STA RATHER THAN -- AND I
THINK A LOT OF IT'S -- A LOT OF THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 135
DEPOSITIONS HAVE ALSO INDICATED THAT, FROM
THE STANDPOINT OF THE SWIM PLAN, COMMON
THINKING IS, FROM THE NON-SCIENCE PEOPLE,
THAT AN STA IS AUTOMATICALLY SOMETHING THAT
IS MANMADE, WHEREAS, I THINK THERE IS A LOT
OF DISCUSSION THE OTHER WAY, SO THE TERMS ARE
ALMOST INTERCHANGEABLE.
WITNESS: UH-HUH (YES).
Q. (BY MR. REID) WELL, JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, YOU TOLD
ME A MINUTE AGO THAT YOU WEREN'T GOING TO BE -- I
THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T GOING TO BE GETTING
INTO THE STA DESIGN AREA---
A. I'M---
Q. ---WITH SONG'S WORK.
A. I'M INTERESTED IN, AS AN ADVISOR, IN SEEING A
SUCCESSFUL DISSERTATION, AND I DON'T THINK THAT
THAT INVOLVES SPECIFIC DESIGN ACTIVITY.
Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S GO BACK TO THE QUESTION. DO
YOU PLAN IN ANY WAY TO DEVELOP TESTIMONY REGARDING
MATHEMATICAL ANALYSIS OF PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE IN THE
EPA AND WETLAND TREATMENT AREAS?
A. DO I PLAN TO DEVELOP THAT TESTIMONY---
Q. YES.
A. ---AT SOME TIME?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 136
Q. YES. FOR THIS PROCEEDING.
A. FOR THIS PROCEEDING REFERS TO WHAT TIME?
Q. THE SWIM CHALLENGE.
A. AND WHAT TIME PERIOD?
Q. WELL, THAT'S SCHEDULED FOR TRIAL IN OCTOBER OF
THIS YEAR.
A. I CAN'T SAY WHERE WE WILL BE. IF WE HAVE
SOMETHING THROUGH OUR WORK THAT MIGHT BE
DISCUSSED, WE CAN.
Q. WHO IS WE?
A. SONG AND ME.
Q. READ THIS SENTENCE. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE WORDS HERE.
A. OKAY.
Q. I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE OPINIONS
ABOUT THIS TOPIC RIGHT HERE, "SUBJECT MATTER OF
EXPECTED TESTIMONY." I WANT TO FOCUS ON THE
SUBSTANCE.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. I DON'T ANTICIPATE HAVING OPINIONS. I ANTICIPATE
HAVING RESULTS OR SOME ANALYSIS OF THE DATA THAT
WE CAN OBTAIN, WHICH RIGHT NOW IS THE WCA-2A AND
THE NORTH AMERICAN DATA SET.
Q. DO YOU INTEND TO TAKE THOSE SAME WORKS---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 137
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---AND THUS APPLY IT TO THE STA'S PROPOSED IN THE
SWIM PLAN, YOU WOULD GET THE SAME ANSWER?
A. I DON'T EXPECT, BY THE END OF THE SUMMER, THAT WE
WILL HAVE REACHED A POINT WHERE THE ANALYSIS THAT
WE WILL DO WILL HAVE SUCH SUPPORT IN OUR MIND BY
THE DATA AND THE SCIENCE THAT IT SHOULD BE USED
FOR DESIGN PURPOSES.
Q. SO, I THINK THE ANSWER IS, YOU WILL NOT HAVE
OPINIONS BY OCTOBER OF THIS YEAR REGARDING THE
STA'S THAT ARE PROPOSED IN THE SWIM PLAN?
A. THE ANSWER, AGAIN -- I GUESS I'M FOCUSING ON THE
WORD "OPINIONS" BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I GIVE
OPINIONS---
Q. WELL---
A. ---I SUPPORT -- I SAY SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT THE
SCIENCE HAS TO SAY, AND "OPINIONS" DOESN'T, TO ME,
REFLECT WHAT WE'RE DOING AT THIS STAGE. I CAN SEE
THAT AT VARIOUS STAGES OF THE WORK, WE MIGHT SAY
THAT THE SCIENCE SUPPORTS THIS AS A MODEL OF HOW
WETLANDS ARE TRAPPING NUTRIENTS. WHETHER THAT
OCCURS BY THE END OF THE SUMMER, I JUST DON'T
KNOW.
Q. WHAT IS THE "THIS" THAT YOU MAKE REFERENCE TO,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 138
STA'S OR WCA-2A?
A. I'M NOT THINKING OF SPECIFIC STRUCTURES. I'M
THINKING OF MORE GENERALLY UNDERSTANDING, OR MORE
GENERAL MODELS OR STATISTICAL MODELS DESCRIBING
WETLANDS AS TRAPPERS OF PHOSPHORUS OR NITROGEN,
AND NOT SPECIFIC TO STA.
Q. OKAY. IT'S ALSO BEEN REPRESENTED THAT YOU HAVE
NOT COMPLETED FORMULATING ALL OPINIONS WHICH MIGHT
BE OFFERED AT FINAL HEARING. I THINK WE'D AGREE
THAT'S TRUE.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. IN FACT, YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY OPINIONS, AS WE
SIT HERE TODAY, THAT WOULD BE OFFERED AT FINAL
HEARING, DO YOU?
A. OR CONCLUSIONS.
Q. EITHER ONE.
A. YEAH.
Q. AND IT SAYS THAT YOUR OPINIONS WILL BE FINALIZED
AFTER ANALYSIS OF DATA TO BE RECEIVED THROUGH
DISCOVERY. IS THAT TRUE?
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO FORM. I'M NOT
SURE THE WITNESS HAS AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE
TECHNICAL TERMS---
Q. (BY MR. REID) DISCOVERY MEANS PRODUCING DOCUMENTS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 139
FROM THE OTHER SIDE, AND HEARING TESTIMONY FROM
THE OTHER SIDE.
A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN, PLEASE?
Q. YEAH. THIS SAYS THAT YOUR OPINIONS, SUCH OPINIONS
WILL BE FINALIZED AFTER ANALYSIS OF DATA TO BE
RECEIVED THROUGH DISCOVERY.
A. OUR CONCLUSIONS WILL BE FINALIZED AFTER ANALYSIS
OF DATA.
Q. OKAY. AND LET ME KEEP READING. IT SAYS -- IT
CONTINUES "INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO DATA
REVIEWED AND/OR RELIED UPON BY WILLIAM WALKER,
ROBERT KADLEC, AND ANY ADDITIONAL WITNESSES
IDENTIFIED BY RESPONDENTS AND ALIGNED INTERVENORS
IN FORMULATING OPINIONS AND PREPARING REPORTS ON
THE SUBJECT MATTER INDICATED ABOVE." AND I HAD
BETTER LET YOU READ THAT. I WANT YOU TO LET ME
KNOW IF THAT'S AN ACCURATE STATEMENT OF WHAT
YOU'RE GOING TO BE DOING IN TERMS OF THE PRECEDING
PAGE.
A. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. WE WILL BE USING OTHERS' DATA -- DATA OBTAINED BY
OR ANALYZED BY OTHER INDIVIDUALS, SUCH AS
BILL WALKER AND KADLEC.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 140
Q. SO, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT YOUR ULTIMATE
CONCLUSIONS AND OPINIONS, IN PART, ARE GOING TO BE
BASED UPON AN ANALYSIS OF THE WORK THAT WALKER AND
KADLEC ARE DOING IN THIS CASE?
A. IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT AS A SCIENTIST, I WILL BE
LOOKING AT WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE.
Q. AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE REPORTS THAT WE MARKED
AS EXHIBITS 3 AND 4?
A. NOW, WHICH ARE THOSE?
Q. THE TWO WALKER REPORTS.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. NO. WITH REGARDS TO THIS, I DON'T SEE WHY THIS IS
GOING TO---
Q. YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THAT AT ALL---
A. NO.
Q. ---IN THE CASE?
MR. RUSSELL: THAT'S EXHIBIT 3?
MS. STINSON: EXCUSE ME. LET'S IDENTIFY
WHAT HE REFERRED TO AS "THIS," THAT HE IS NOT
GOING TO RELY ON.
MR. REID: OKAY, I WILL.
Q. (BY MR. REID) JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, IN YOUR
INTERROGATORY RESPONSE THAT WAS FILED BY COUNSEL,
THAT MAKES REFERENCE TO YOUR ANALYZING DATA OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 141
WILLIAM WALKER, YOU WILL NOT BE LOOKING AT
EXHIBIT 3, "WATER QUALITY TRENDS AT INFLOWS TO
EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK"?
A. THAT'S CORRECT, WE WILL NOT BE LOOKING AT THAT.
Q. AND YOU WILL, THEREFORE, HAVE NO OPINIONS
REGARDING THE WORK THAT BILL WALKER DID IN
PREPARING EXHIBIT 3?
A. NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE WORK THAT I AM DOING
WITH SONG.
Q. I'M NOT ASKING ABOUT THE WORK WITH SONG. I'M
ASKING ABOUT IN THIS PROCEEDING FOR ANY PURPOSE.
A. IF THIS PROCEEDING IS NOT DEALING WITH TREND
ANALYSIS, THAT DOESN'T RELATE TO THE WORK.
Q. OKAY. GO AHEAD. YOU GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THAT
OTHER WORK BY WALKER?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. IT SAYS IN THIS, THAT AMONG OTHER
THINGS YOU'RE GOING TO BE RELYING UPON AVAILABLE
LITERATURE. WHAT LITERATURE ARE YOU MAKING
REFERENCE TO?
A. LITERATURE SUCH AS THAT WALKER REPORT WE JUST
IDENTIFIED, AND---
MS. STINSON: WHICH IS---
Q. (BY MR. REID) EXHIBIT 4?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 142
A. EXHIBIT 4. AND THE KADLEC REPORT ON THE NORTH
AMERICAN DATA SET. OTHER LITERATURE THAT WE
IDENTIFY, SONG IN PARTICULAR IDENTIFIES, ON
WETLANDS AND THEIR EFFICIENCY AND EFFECTIVENESS AS
NUTRIENT TRAPS, AND LITERATURE AND STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS THAT DESCRIBES STATISTICAL METHODS.
Q. NOW, THE WORK THAT SONG IS GOING TO BE DOING IS
GOING TO RELATE TO HOW PHOSPHORUS IS ACTED UPON
OR HOW PHOSPHORUS IS AFFECTED IN WETLANDS,
SPECIFICALLY, WCA-2A.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. HAVE YOU BEEN ASKED TO DEVELOP ANY OPINIONS
REGARDING ANY TREND ANALYSIS THAT WAS DONE BY
ANYBODY CONCERNING EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK?
A. AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, I WAS ASKED TO REVIEW THAT
REPORT OF BILL WALKER.
Q. AND AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, YOU HAVE NO INTENTION
OF OFFERING ANY TESTIMONY IN THESE PROCEEDINGS
CONCERNING TREND ANALYSIS?
A. I DO NOT.
Q. OKAY. I WANT TO START LOOKING AT SOME OF THESE
DOCUMENTS JUST IN GENERAL, AND THEN WE'LL TALK
MORE SPECIFICALLY LATER.
MR. REID: MAYBE YOU SHOULD JUST GIVE ME
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 143
YOUR STICKERS AND -- YOU'VE GOT THEM ALREADY
NUMBERED -- AND I'LL JUST---
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 5 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT
EXHIBIT 5, WHICH IS AN ARTICLE BY YOU IN DECEMBER
OF 1991, "NONPARAMETRIC AND ROBUST METHODS"
ETCETERA. YOU'VE SEEN THAT BEFORE, OBVIOUSLY?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. WHY WAS THAT IN YOUR FILE?
A. BECAUSE THE METHODS OF SMOOTHING, DATA SMOOTHING,
ARE CENTRAL TO WHAT SONG'S GOING TO USE.
Q. OKAY. SO THIS PIECE SPECIFICALLY DEALS WITH THE
WORK THAT SONG'S GOING TO DO?
A. YES.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 6 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 6. IT'S AN
ARTICLE BY PATRICK OF OCTOBER '92.
A. YEAH.
†䥔❓⁁不ਠ††††††††††††䅒呉䍌䔠䉙⁐䅔剉䍋⁏䘠佃呏䉅删✹㈮ഊഊ††††††††††䄮†⁙䕁䠮ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 144
Q. TELL ME WHY THAT'S IN YOUR FILE.
A. THAT'S IN MY FILE BECAUSE IT WAS IN MY STACK OF
PAPERS. I BELIEVE I RECEIVED IT AT THE MEETING I
MENTIONED, IN THE FALL OF 1992, AND I HAVEN'T READ
IT.
Q. DO YOU INTEND TO READ IT?
A. YES.
Q. DOES IT RELATE TO WHAT SONG IS GOING TO DO?
A. I THINK IT PROBABLY DOES.
Q. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 7 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. I SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 7, WHICH IS A FAX TO YOU FROM
RON MUNSON. TELL ME WHY THAT'S IN YOUR FILE.
A. THIS WAS A FAX THAT, AS I RECALL, FOLLOWED THE
TELEPHONE CALL WHEN RON CALLED AND ASKED ABOUT OUR
MODEL, AND I EXPRESSED SURPRISE THAT WE HAD A
MODEL, AND TOLD HIM I DIDN'T THINK WE DID. AND SO
MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT HE SENT THIS TO ME TO
DESCRIBE WHAT HE REFERRED TO AS OUR MODEL, AND I
TOLD HIM THAT WE HAD NO MODEL. THIS WAS PART OF
SOME ANALYSIS WE WERE DOING.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 145
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 8 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. EXHIBIT 8, WHICH IS A "PRELIMINARY APPLICATION OF
THE EVERGLADES HYDROLOGIC/NUTRIENT BUDGET MODEL,"
WHO PREPARED THAT?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. IT CAME FROM TETRA TECH, AND I DON'T RECALL
READING OR USING THIS, BUT IT---
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY INTENTION OF USING IT?
A. I WILL LOOK AT IT.
Q. DOES IT RELATE TO WHAT SONG IS DOING?
A. MAYBE.
Q. HOW?
A. IT CONCERNS THE SAME AREA.
Q. WCA-2A YOU MEAN?
A. YEAH.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 9 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. LOOKING AT EXHIBIT 9, WHICH IS A KBN DOCUMENT,
"EVERGLADES SWIM PLAN MODEL DEVELOPMENT UPDATE,"
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 146
WITH ATTACHMENTS. TELL ME WHY THAT'S IN YOUR
FILE.
A. IT'S THE SAME THING, IT LOOKS LIKE. IT HAS SOME
OF THE SAME THINGS THAT PREVIOUS -- I DON'T
REMEMBER WHAT -- THIS WAS SENT TO ME, AND MY
RESPONSE IS THE SAME AS BEFORE. WE POSSIBLY
MIGHT. WE CERTAINLY SHOULD LOOK AT IT, AND MAY
USE IT.
MR. FITZGERALD: CAN YOU JUST FLASH ME
THE COVER OF THAT BECAUSE I'VE GOT TWO KBN
DOCUMENTS, OR READ THE FIRST LINE?
(THEREUPON, MR. REID SHOWS
EXHIBIT 9 TO MR. FITZGERALD.)
MR. FITZGERALD: THAT ONE, OKAY. THANK
YOU.
MR. REID: OKAY. LET'S MARK EXHIBIT 10
WHICH IS A JULY '92 KADLEC AND NEWMAN
ARTICLE.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO ABOVE WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 10 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) WILL YOU BE RELYING ON THAT?
A. YES.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 147
Q. OKAY. AND ARE THOSE YOUR HANDWRITTEN NOTES?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN I SAY "YOU", I GUESS I MEAN SONG.
A. YES, I UNDERSTAND.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 11 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) EXHIBIT 11, WHICH IS A QUALLS AND
RICHARDSON ARTICLE.
A. I HAVEN'T READ IT. WE WILL LOOK AT IT. WE MAY
RELY ON IT.
Q. WHY IS IT IN YOUR FOLDER, OR WHY IS THAT IN YOUR
FILES?
A. I DON'T KNOW. CURT MAY HAVE PASSED IT ON TO ME
FOR SOME REASON. I DON'T RECALL.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 12 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 148
Q. (BY MR. REID) SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 12. THIS IS A
DOCUMENT, LOOKS LIKE AN OVERHEAD OR SOMETHING,
"RESEARCH IN SUPPORT OF STA DESIGN." HAVE YOU
SEEN THAT BEFORE?
A. I THINK THESE ARE THE FIGURES FROM WALKER'S PAPER,
AND WE'RE LIKELY TO MAKE USE OF IT.
Q. WHICH WALKER PAPER, THE TREND ANALYSIS?
A. NO.
Q. THE ENP?
A. YEAH. THE ONE THAT I SAID OVER THERE THAT WE
WOULD USE.
Q. OKAY. THAT'S EXHIBIT 4 WHICH IS "REFINEMENTS TO
PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE RELATIONSHIP".
A. I THINK THAT THOSE FIGURES ARE THE SAME.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 13 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. OKAY. NOW WE'LL LOOK AT EXHIBIT NUMBER 13, WHICH
IS A CRAFT AND RICHARDSON ARTICLE.
A. I HAVEN'T READ IT. WE'LL PROBABLY USE IT.
Q. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 149
EXHIBIT NO. 14 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) EXHIBIT 14. LET'S IDENTIFY THE
DATE OF THAT.
A. THE DATE -- 1992.
Q. OKAY. AND IT'S A PAPER BY?
A. LOWE, L-O-W-E, ET AL.
Q. OKAY.
A. I FORGOT HOW I GOT THIS. I GUESS I'LL LOOK AT IT
BECAUSE IT'S IN THAT STACK OF MATERIALS, BUT I
DON'T RECALL THE SPECIFICS ON IT.
Q. HOW WAS THIS STACK OF MATERIALS GENERATED?
A. I HAVE AN OFFICE WITH A LOT OF ACTIVITIES GOING
ON, AND I KEEP THINGS IN EITHER FILES OR STACKS
ASSOCIATED WITH SUBJECT MATTER. AND SO, IF I FELT
THINGS WOULD RELATE TO THIS WORK, I'VE ACCUMULATED
THEM THERE.
Q. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 15 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) THIS IS AN ARTICLE, EXHIBIT 15,
"EFFECTIVE PHOSPHORUS RETENTION IN WETLANDS, FACT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 150
OR FICTION." HAVE YOU SEEN THAT BEFORE?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. YES.
Q. WHO'S THE AUTHOR?
A. CURT RICHARDSON. HE MODIFIED A PAPER THAT
SONG QIAN HAD DONE AS PART OF A COURSE, AND I READ
THE PAPER THAT SONG DID. I HAVEN'T READ THIS
MODIFICATION. AND WE'RE APT TO USE SOME OF THIS
THINKING.
Q. ARE ALL THE ATTACHMENTS TO THIS CLIPPED
TOGETHER -- DO THEY GO WITH THE ARTICLE?
A. LET ME SEE. I DIDN'T REALIZE---
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. ---I THINK THEY DO. I THINK THESE ARE THE
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS THAT SONG DID AS PART OF THE
CLASS PROJECT, AND DATA LISTINGS.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 16 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. OKAY. LOOK AT EXHIBIT 16, WHICH APPEARS TO BE A
SET OF CHARTS AND GRAPHS AND SO FORTH. ASK YOU IF
YOU CAN IDENTIFY THAT?
A. WELL, THIS, I THINK, IS THE NORTH AMERICAN DATA
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 151
SET OF KADLEC'S.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU INTEND TO USE THAT?
A. YEAH.
Q. I THINK YOU SAID---
A. YEAH, YEAH.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 17 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. OKAY. EXHIBIT 17, WHICH IS A FAX FROM HOPPING
BOYD, ATTACHED TO THAT IS A KBN "EVERGLADES SWIM
PLAN REVIEW BIWEEKLY UPDATE." WHY IS THAT IN YOUR
FILE?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. THEY'RE JUST -- I DON'T -- THEY SENT IT TO ME. I
DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHY IT'S IN THERE. IT RELATES
TO THAT TOPIC AREA.
Q. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 18 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) EXHIBIT 18, WHICH IS A LETTER OF
1990 FROM MIKE SOUKUP, S-O-U-K-U-P, TO PAUL
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 152
WHALEN, W-H-A-L-E-N. HAVE YOU SEEN THAT MATERIAL
BEFORE?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. I HAVEN'T READ THIS SPECIFIC PAPER. AND I DON'T
KNOW WHY THIS IS HERE. IT TIES INTO SOME OF THE
TREND ANALYSIS THAT BILL WALKER DID. I DON'T KNOW
AS WE'LL USE THIS. I DON'T KNOW WHY IT'S IN
THAT---
Q. (BY MR. REID) WELL NOW, YOU'RE NOT DOING TREND
ANALYSIS, ARE YOU?
A. THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S WHY I SAID I DON'T KNOW WHY
WE'LL USE THIS.
Q. OKAY.
A. YEAH.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 19 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. EXHIBIT 19, WHICH IS A
PAPER BY SMITH, ET AL., "STUDY OF TRENDS IN TOTAL
PHOSPHORUS."
A. I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS CAME IN BECAUSE THIS IS
RELATED TO THE SEASONAL KINDLES TEST THAT
BILL WALKER USED IN THAT WORK, BUT AGAIN, WE'RE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 153
NOT DOING TREND ANALYSIS.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 20 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) ALL RIGHT. SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 20.
CAN YOU TELL ME WHO WROTE THAT?
A. THIS LOOKS LIKE SONG'S FIRST VERY EARLY ATTEMPT,
APRIL '92, OF HIS RESEARCH PROPOSAL.
Q. OKAY. THAT'S THE RESEARCH THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE
DOING?
A. IT'S BEEN MODIFIED SOMEWHAT SINCE THIS -- TALKS
ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS HE'S GOING TO BE DOING,
YES.
Q. OKAY.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. WHAT NUMBER IS THAT, PLEASE?
A. IT'S NUMBER 20.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 21 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) I'LL SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 21, WHICH IS
"RESEARCH PROPOSAL ON PHOSPHORUS MODELING" BY
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 154
SONG QIAN, DATED JUNE '92.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. I THINK THIS JUST DESCRIBES SOME OF THE THINGS
THAT HE'S DOING FOR THE DISSERTATION. IT'S NOT
QUITE ALONG THE LINES OF WHERE I SEE IT HEADED.
Q. (BY MR. REID) SO THAT'S NOT A WORKING VERSION OF
IT?
A. NO, IT ISN'T A WORKING VERSION.
Q. I MAY HAVE SAID EXHIBIT 22. I MEANT EXHIBIT 21.
A. 21. THAT'S CORRECT.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 22 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) NOW, I'LL SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 22, AND
ASK IF YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT THAT IS.
A. THIS LOOKS LIKE IT WAS WRITTEN BY SONG. IT LOOKS
TO ME LIKE ANOTHER EARLY VERSION OF THE PROPOSAL
AND TIES IN TO SOME DEGREE WITH WHAT HE'S DOING,
BUT IT'S AN EARLY VERSION.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 23 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 155
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. I SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 23, AND
ASK IF YOU'VE SEEN THAT?
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. YEAH. THIS IS SOME WORK THAT SONG HAD DONE IN USE
OF SMOOTHING TECHNIQUES, OR LOOKING AT SOME OF THE
DATA, WCA-2A. SO, THIS IS THE SORT OF WORK
LEADING TO THE PROPOSAL.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION. IT
LOOKS TO ME LIKE I'M MISSING SOME IN THIS VERSION.
I UNDERSTAND THERE'S A DIFFERENT -- CAN YOU RECALL
LOOKING AT THAT PAGE?
A. WITH THE SEVEN APPLICATION OF THE MODEL?
Q. AND THEN THERE'S -- YEAH. LOOK AT THE NEXT PAGE
AND SEE IF THAT SEEMS TO FOLLOW.
A. NO, IT DOESN'T, BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE'S
ANYTHING MISSING---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---THAT HE HAD DONE. I DON'T REMEMBER AN
APPLICATION COMING OUT OF THIS.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT NO. 24 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) NOW, I WANT TO SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 24,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 156
WHICH ARE DOCUMENTS ON DUKE UNIVERSITY STATIONERY,
DATED NOVEMBER 18, DECEMBER 2ND, AND JANUARY 22ND,
ALL ENTITLED "BIWEEKLY PROGRESS REPORT."
A. THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. AND THEY ALL SEEM TO BE FROM YOU---
A. YEP.
Q. ---TO CURT POLLMAN AND BILL GREEN?
A. WELL, REMEMBER, I'M NOT A CONSULTANT ON THIS
PROJECT.
Q. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE---
A. WELL, I WANTED TO INDICATE THAT I KEEP MY
CONSULTING BUSINESS SEPARATE. YOU MENTIONED DUKE
UNIVERSITY STATIONERY. I'M DOING THIS WORK AS
SONG'S ADVISOR AND IT MIGHT---
Q. OH. I THINK YOU'RE BEING DEFENSIVE. AND I
WASN'T---
A. OKAY, OKAY.
Q. I JUST IDENTIFIED IT BECAUSE IT WAS THERE.
A. OKAY.
Q. BUT I DO HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT IT. YOU'VE SEEN
THOSE BEFORE?
A. YES.
Q. WHY, AS HIS ADVISOR -- STRIKE THAT. WHO'S
CURT POLLMAN?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 157
A. CURT POLLMAN IS A CONSULTANT WITH KBN.
Q. AND IS HE CONNECTED WITH DUKE UNIVERSITY
SOMEHOW?
A. NO.
Q. THAT'S AN OUTSIDE FIRM?
A. THAT'S AN OUTSIDE FIRM.
Q. IS HE WORKING FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY?
A. YEAH. HE WAS IN ON A MEETING THAT I MENTIONED
WITH BILL GREEN AND RICK BURGESS LAST SUMMER. HE
WAS ANOTHER PERSON.
Q. AND IS HE CONNECTED IN ANY WAY WITH DUKE
UNIVERSITY?
A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
Q. HAS HE GOT A CONTRACT WITH DUKE UNIVERSITY?
A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
Q. NOW, BILL GREEN'S THE ATTORNEY FOR THE
COOPERATIVE. IS THAT RIGHT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. IS IT NORMAL THAT YOU WOULD BE SENDING REPORTS ON
STUDENTS' PROGRESS TO OUTSIDE PEOPLE?
A. IT'S NOT SOMETHING, UNLESS THEY REQUESTED IT.
Q. CAN YOU THINK OF ANOTHER EXAMPLE WHERE YOU'VE DONE
THAT, WITH ANY OF YOUR STUDENTS?
A. WHERE I'VE SENT---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 158
Q. REGULAR REPORTS TO OUTSIDE THIRD PARTIES ABOUT
THEIR PROGRESS TOWARD THEIR GRADUATE DEGREES ON
DUKE UNIVERSITY STATIONERY?
A. ON DUKE UNIVERSITY STATIONERY. IF I WAS -- IN
ALL LIKELIHOOD, IF I WAS ACTING AS A FACULTY
ADVISOR, I WOULD USE DUKE UNIVERSITY STATIONERY,
AND THAT'S THE ROLE I WAS ASSUMING HERE. I CAN'T
THINK OF ANOTHER SITUATION WHERE I HAVE -- WELL,
FOR EPA PROJECTS, PROGRESS REPORTS PROBABLY ARE A
PART OF IT. I CAN'T THINK OFFHAND OF ANOTHER
SITUATION.
Q. OKAY. BUT THAT WOULD BE WHERE DUKE HAS SOME
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE EPA, I ASSUME, A CONTRACT OR
OTHERWISE?
A. THAT'S CORRECT, YEAH. YEAH.
Q. NOW, SO THIS IS JUST A REPORT THAT DUKE IS SENDING
OUT---
A. THAT I'M SENDING OUT.
Q. OKAY. THAT YOU'RE SENDING OUT ON DUKE
STATIONERY---
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. ---TO THESE TWO PEOPLE, WITH WHOM YOU HAVE NO
RELATIONSHIP?
A. I HAVE -- I AM NOT PAID AS A CONSULTANT BY THESE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 159
PEOPLE.
Q. WITH WHOM YOU HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP. IS THAT
ACCURATE OR NOT?
MS. STINSON: OBJECTION TO FORM,
OVERBROAD.
WITNESS: WHAT'D YOU SAY?
MR. REID: NOTHING. I MEAN, YOU CAN
ANSWER THE QUESTION.
MS. STINSON: I SAID OBJECT TO FORM
OF THE QUESTION, OVERBROAD. THE QUESTION
WAS OVERBROAD. BUT YOU CAN ANSWER IT, IF
YOU CAN.
WITNESS: OKAY.
A. THERE HAS BEEN A GIFT TO THE WETLANDS CENTER IN
SUPPORT OF SONG'S RESEARCH.
Q. BY WHOM?
A. BY THE SUGAR CANE COOPERATIVE.
Q. WHEN WAS THAT GIFT GIVEN?
A. THAT GIFT WAS GIVEN PERHAPS A YEAR AGO, AND
ANOTHER GIFT WAS GIVEN TEN -- EIGHT, TEN MONTHS
AGO.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW MUCH WERE THOSE TWO GIFTS?
A. I THINK EACH WAS TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS
($20,000.00).
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 160
Q. AND HOW MUCH IS SONG'S SUPPORT FROM THE WETLANDS
CENTER TOTAL?
A. I SUSPECT HE'S GETTING SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF
SIXTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS ($16,000.00).
Q. AND WHO GETS THE REST OF THAT GIFT THAT WAS GIVEN
IN SUPPORT OF HIS WORK?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO BE USED WITH ANY
OTHER MONEY ON THE FIRST GIFT. THAT'S A GIFT OR A
CODE THAT CURT RICHARDSON IS HANDLING. AS FAR AS
THE SECOND GIFT---
Q. WELL, WAIT. EXCUSE ME. LET ME INTERRUPT. WHAT
YOU JUST SAID DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AT ALL,
SO WOULD YOU MIND---
A. SURE.
Q. YOU WANT TO HEAR THAT ANSWER BACK?
A. WELL, I CAN RESTATE IT. I DON'T KNOW---
Q. MY QUESTION WAS, SONG IS GETTING SIXTEEN THOUSAND
DOLLARS ($16,000.00). YOU TOLD ME THERE'S FORTY
THOUSAND DOLLARS ($40,000.00) AS A GIFT FROM THE
COOPERATIVE TO SUPPORT HIS WORK. MY QUESTION IS,
WHO'S GETTING THE REMAINING TWENTY-FOUR THOUSAND
($24,000.00)?
A. I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE'S GETTING THE REMAINING
TWENTY-FOUR THOUSAND ($24,000.00). I KNOW SOME OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 161
THAT MONEY HAS BEEN USED TO PURCHASE COMPUTERS FOR
GENERAL GRADUATE STUDENT USE, AND SONG'S BEEN A
PRETTY HEAVY USER OF THOSE COMPUTERS.
Q. OKAY. SO DUKE IS USING IT, IN OTHER WORDS?
A. DUKE'S USING IT.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU WERE SENDING BIWEEKLY REPORTS TO
THE LAWYER FOR THE COOPERATIVE, WHO'S THE GIFT
GIVER IN THIS CASE?
A. YES.
Q. AND TO SOME THIRD PARTY OUTSIDE CONSULTANT THAT
THE COOPERATIVE IS USING?
A. YES.
Q. AND THAT'S WHAT THEY REQUIRE AS A CONDITION FOR
THIS GIFT?
A. THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY REQUIRED AS A CONDITION.
THAT'S WHAT THEY REQUESTED.
Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND WHERE WOULD THE DOCUMENTATION BE
ABOUT THIS GIFT?
A. I SUSPECT IT'S IN THE WETLAND CENTER FILES.
MS. STINSON: IT'S 4:00.
MR. REID: OKAY. WE'LL PICK IT UP
TOMORROW.
MR. STINSON: DO YOU WANT GO ON WITH
THE -- HE'S AVAILABLE FROM 5:30 TO 7:00
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 162
THIS EVENING.
MR. REID: DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
MS. STINSON: HE'S AVAILABLE FROM 5:30
TO 7:00 THIS EVENING, IF YOU'D LIKE TO
PROCEED THEN.
MR. REID: WELL, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD
BE WORTHWHILE TO GO AWAY FOR AN HOUR AND A
HALF AND COME BACK FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF,
SO WE CAN START IN THE MORNING AT EIGHT
O'CLOCK.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
MS. STINSON: WELL, LET ME PUT ONE THING
ON THE RECORD FIRST. I DID WRITE A LETTER TO
COUNSEL SUGGESTING THAT THIS DEPOSITION BE
TAKEN LATER, THAT DR. RECKHOW HAD NOT
FORMULATED ANY OPINIONS. IT WAS DECIDED BY
COUNSEL FOR SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT TO PROCEED ANYWAY. WE HAVE AGREED
TO DO THAT, AND HAVE AGREED, UNCONDITIONALLY,
IN ANY EVENT, TO PRODUCE HIM AGAIN LATER.
GIVEN THAT, I DON'T THINK THERE SHOULD BE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 163
ANY CONCERN WITH RESPECT TO THE ENTIRE LENGTH
OF THIS. THERE'S NO NEED TO KEEP IT OPEN,
SO WE WON'T OBJECT TO A CONTINUATION. WE'RE
NOT OBJECTING TO A CONTINUATION OF THIS AT
SOME LATER DATE. AND IT WILL CLEARLY HAVE
TO BE TAKEN AT A LATER DATE ADDITIONALLY
ANYWAY.
MR. REID: WELL, LET ME JUST SAY I DID
GET THE LETTER TELLING ME THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE
OPINIONS. I REALIZE FROM TODAY THAT HE'S
PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAVE OPINIONS UNTIL THE
END OF 1994, SO I THINK THAT WAS KIND OF
SUPERFLUOUS TO SAY HE DOESN'T HAVE OPINIONS
TODAY, TAKE IT LATER, BECAUSE I ASSUME HE
WOULD HAVE THE SAME TESTIMONY. BUT IN THE
LETTER, I DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT HIS
SCHEDULE, HIS CLASS, HIS NECESSITY FOR
BREAKING UP AND COMING BACK. SO, RIGHT, YOU
SENT ME A LETTER BUT YOU DIDN'T MENTION ANY
OF THESE OTHER PROBLEMS. I THOUGHT WE'D HAVE
TWO FULL DAYS OF DEPOSITION. AND WE HAVE
MAYBE A DAY. AND THE PROBLEM IS, WE HAVE TO
PAY TO COME UP HERE, AND WE HAVE TO PAY TO
COME UP HERE AGAIN, YOU KNOW.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 164
MR. FITZGERALD: I WOULD ALSO VOICE
SOME OF THE SAME CONCERNS. I WOULD POINT OUT
THAT THE UNITED STATES CROSS-NOTICED THIS
WITNESS AND WAS NOT CONSULTED ABOUT THE
POSSIBILITY OF CANCELLING, ALTHOUGH I GOT A
COPY OF THE LETTER. WE WOULD NOT HAVE AGREED
TO IT, EVEN IF THE DISTRICT HAD, SO THE DEPO
WOULD HAVE GONE FORTH. I THINK THE WITNESS
HAS BEEN VERY FRANK AND EXHIBITED GREAT
CANDOR IN SUGGESTING THAT HE DOESN'T SEE HIS
ROLE AS FORMULATING OPINIONS IN MANY OF THE
AREAS FOR WHICH HE'S BEEN DESIGNATED AS A
WITNESS. I UNDERSTAND THAT HE WAS NOT
CONSULTED ABOUT THAT, AND I CERTAINLY DON'T
THINK YOU HOLD THAT AGAINST THE WITNESS; THAT
AN ATTORNEY DESIGNATES HIM WITHOUT
CONSULTATION. I AM CONCERNED OVER THE
BELATED ADVICE OF DIFFICULTIES WITH THE
SCHEDULED TIME. THIS HAS LONG BEEN NOTICED,
WELL WITHIN THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE
DISCOVERING SCHEDULING ORDER. ALTHOUGH I
REPRESENT A PUBLIC CLIENT, I HAVE AN EQUAL
OBLIGATION TO INSURE THAT THE MONEY AND TIME
IS NOT SQUANDERED. IT APPEARS TO ME, BASED
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 165
ON THE WITNESS' TESTIMONY, THAT WE MIGHT WELL
HAVE FINISHED HIS DEPOSITION WITH NO
NECESSITY OF RETURNING IN THE FUTURE IF, IN
FACT, AS WE EXPECT THE CASE PROCEEDS TO
HEARING ON THE CURRENT SCHEDULE. THAT BEING
THE CASE, I DON'T FEEL THAT THE OFFER, WHICH
I ACKNOWLEDGED, TO HAVE A FOLLOW-UP
DEPOSITION REALLY ANSWERS THE PROBLEM. IF
I, IN FACT, AM NOT AFFORDED AN OPPORTUNITY TO
INQUIRE ADEQUATELY AT THIS SESSION, WE END UP
HAVING TO COME BACK AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH THERE
MAY BE NO OPINIONS THEN EITHER, AND I DO HAVE
A PROBLEM WITH THAT. SO, I'M GOING TO OBJECT
FOR THE RECORD THAT WE'RE DOING THIS, AND WE
RESERVE ALL OF OUR RIGHTS.
MR. RUSSELL: WELL, YOU'VE GOT AN HOUR
AND A HALF.
MS. STINSON: YEAH. I -- WELL, I
ALSO -- WELL, I OFFERED AN ADDITIONAL HOUR
THIS MORNING BEFORE HIS CLASS AND AN
ADDITIONAL HOUR AND A HALF AFTER HIS
MEETING---
MR. REID: WAIT, WAIT, THAT'S---
MS. STINSON: ---BUT I DON'T BELIEVE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 166
THIS HAS TO BE ON THE RECORD.
MR. REID: WAIT. THAT'S A PURITAN
OFFER AT BEST TO SAY THAT YOU GAVE THE OFFER
FOR ME TO TAKE AN HOUR AND A HALF BREAK AND
THEN TO COME BACK FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF.
THAT DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION AT ALL. AND
I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHEN DID HE KNOW ABOUT HIS
CLASS SCHEDULE?
MS. STINSON: I CAN ONLY TELL YOU WHEN I
KNEW ABOUT HIS CLASS SCHEDULE.
MR. REID: I ASSUME HE MUST NOT HAVE
KNOWN ABOUT HIS CLASS SCHEDULE UNTIL TWO DAYS
AGO, AND THAT'S REALLY SURPRISING AND IT'S
HARD TO BELIEVE.
MR. FITZGERALD: YES.
MR. REID: OKAY, WE'LL SEE YOU IN THE
MORNING.
MS. STINSON: EIGHT O'CLOCK?
MR. REID: YES.
-------------------------------------------------------
(THEREUPON, THIS PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION
OF DR. RECKHOW WAS RECESSED AT 4:02 P.M.,
TO BE RESUMED APRIL 9, 1993, AT 8:00 A.M.)
-------------------------------------------------------
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 167
THE FOLLOWING PORTION OF THE DEPOSITION
OF DR. KENNETH HOWLAND RECKHOW WAS TAKEN ON THE
9TH DAY OF APRIL, 1993, BEGINNING AT OR AROUND
8:03 A.M. IN THE HILTON HOTEL, 3800 HILLSBOROUGH ROAD,
THE EXECUTIVE BOARDROOM, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, AND
WAS REPORTED BY PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY PUBLIC.
- - - - - - - - - -
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES:
Q. DR. RECKHOW, DID YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO
DISCUSS YOUR -- THE CASE OR YOUR TESTIMONY WITH
ANYBODY SINCE WE WERE LAST TOGETHER?
A. LET ME THINK. CURT RICHARDSON CALLED ME LAST
NIGHT.
MS. STINSON: EXCUSE ME. LET ME
INTERRUPT FOR A SECOND. I WOULD LIKE TO
GET SOMETHING ON THE RECORD BEFORE WE
PROCEED WITH THE DEPOSITION REGARDING
SCHEDULING.
MR. REID: YOU'RE NOT CHANGING IT AGAIN,
ARE YOU?
MS. STINSON: NO. THOUGH I WILL PROPOSE
SOMETHING. AND, GENERALLY, I WOULDN'T FEEL
THE NEED TO PUT THIS ON THE RECORD AT A
DEPOSITION, EXCEPT IF SOMETHING COMES UP WITH
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 168
THE HEARING OFFICER, I'M NOT LIKELY TO BE
HERE TO DISCUSS IT WITH HIM, AND I WANTED
THIS TO BE ON THE RECORD. I'LL MAKE THE
STATEMENT AND THAT'S ALL I'LL HAVE TO SAY.
FIRST, GIVEN THE ACADEMIC AFFILIATION OF
MANY OF THE EXPERTS IN THIS CASE, COUNSEL
HAVE GENERALLY AGREED TO, AND HAVE, IN FACT,
WORKED AROUND THE TEACHING SCHEDULES, TAKING
BREAKS FOR CLASSES SO THAT THE REQUEST
YESTERDAY REGARDING THE CLASS WAS NOT
UNUSUAL. IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE, AS YOU
HEARD FROM THE WITNESS YESTERDAY, DR. RECKHOW
IS NOT EVEN A PRIVATELY RETAINED CONSULTANT,
BUT IS HERE BECAUSE HIS WORK AT DUKE IS
RELEVANT TO THE ISSUES, SO THAT I BELIEVE
HIS ACADEMIC COMMITMENTS TAKE PRIORITY.
YESTERDAY, GIVEN DR. RECKHOW'S COMMITMENTS,
WE OFFERED AN HOUR BEFORE HIS MORNING CLASS,
AND ANOTHER ONE AND A HALF HOURS AFTER HIS
FOUR O'CLOCK COMMITMENT, WHICH YOU DECLINED
TO UTILIZE. I MADE PLANE RESERVATIONS FOR
MYSELF FOR MIDDAY TODAY, FRIDAY, BELIEVING,
BASED ON MY NEARLY TWENTY YEARS OF LITIGATION
EXPERIENCE, THAT GIVEN THE STATUS OF
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 169
DR. RECKHOW'S WORK IN THIS AREA, THAT THAT
WOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME TO CONDUCT AN
APPROPRIATE EXAMINATION.
AND FINALLY, AS MENTIONED YESTERDAY,
EVEN THOUGH WE SUGGESTED THAT THIS DEPOSITION
BE POSTPONED, GIVEN THE PRELIMINARY NATURE OF
THE WITNESS' WORK, WE AGREED BOTH TO PROCEED
NOW AND THAT THE DEPOSITION WOULD BE HELD
OPEN AND REDONE LATER SO THAT THERE IS NO
NEED TO TRY TO LAY BLAME HERE IN ORDER TO BE
ABLE TO DEPOSE DR. RECKHOW AGAIN. IF, IN
FACT, DR. RECKHOW DOES NOT FINALIZE HIS WORK
ON WHICH HE WILL TESTIFY PRIOR TO THE END OF
DISCOVERY WITHOUT SOME GOOD CAUSE, IT IS MY
UNDERSTANDING FROM LAST FRIDAY'S STATUS
CONFERENCE THAT THE HEARING OFFICER WOULD NOT
ALLOW HIM TO TESTIFY IN ANY EVENT. ANY
CONCERN, THEREFORE, ABOUT NOT OBTAINING HIS
RESULTS THROUGH DEPOSITION IS TAKEN CARE OF.
THERE WERE SOME DISCUSSIONS YESTERDAY ABOUT
POSSIBLY JUST CONCLUDING DR. RECKHOW'S
DEPOSITION AND NOT NEEDING TO TAKE IT AGAIN,
AND I WOULD PROPOSE THAT IF YOU CAN, IN FACT,
DO THAT TODAY, FINALIZE IT, AND NOT HOLD IT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 170
OPEN, THAT I WOULD BE WILLING TO TRY TO
CHANGE MY FLIGHT ARRANGEMENTS TO TAKE THE
LAST FLIGHT OUT TODAY, WHICH IS AT SIX
O'CLOCK. AND -- WITH THE AGREEMENT THAT IT
WOULD BE CONCLUDED TODAY, AND THAT WE WOULD
NOT AGREE TO HOLD IT OPEN. BUT WITHOUT THAT
ASSURANCE, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO DRAG
THINGS ON KNOWING THAT WE'VE AGREED TO
RETURN. IF YOU WISH TO CONTINUE TO THE END
OF THE DAY, IT WOULD BE WITH THE
UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PURPOSE IS TO CONCLUDE
THE DEPOSITION OBVIATING THE NEED TO RETURN.
THAT'S ON THE RECORD, I WOULD -- YOU CAN---
MR. REID: WAIT. YOU KNOW, YESTER---
MS. STINSON: WAIT A MINUTE.
MR. REID: WAIT. THAT'S REALLY AMAZING.
I MEAN, I---
MS. STINSON: WAIT A MINUTE, BEN, I AM
NOT FINISHED.
MR. REID: ---I WENT OUT AND CHANGED --
I CHANGED FLIGHTS---
MS. STINSON: BEN, WAIT A MINUTE, I AM
NOT FINISHED.
MR. REID: THIS IS INCREDIBLE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 171
MS. STINSON: I'M---
MR. REID: GO AHEAD, FINISH.
MS. STINSON: ---MAKING THE
PROPOSITION---
MR. REID: GO AHEAD, YEAH, SURE.
MS. STINSON: ---BECAUSE AT THE END OF
THE DAY YESTERDAY, THERE WERE SOME COMMENTS
ABOUT BEING ABLE TO CONCLUDE THIS DEPOSITION.
I HAVE NOT CHANGED MY FLIGHT. I WOULD BE
WILLING TO TRY TO DO THAT. I DON'T PLAN TO
DO -- TO ARGUE FURTHER NOW; I'VE MADE MY
STATEMENT. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN MAKE WHATEVER
COMMENTS OR CHOICE YOU WISH TO ON THE RECORD.
BUT THAT'S -- THAT'S MY VIEWS.
MR. REID: NO, I PLANNED TO COME AND
START THE DEPOSITION AT EIGHT O'CLOCK, AND I
WENT TO GREAT LENGTHS TO CHANGE FLIGHT
SCHEDULES LAST NIGHT, BASED ON WHAT YOU TOLD
ME, AND CHANGED A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS,
RESCHEDULED SOME THINGS BACK IN MIAMI. AND
NOW, TODAY, SUDDENLY AT, YOU KNOW, TEN AFTER
EIGHT, YOU TELL ME THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO
RUSH BACK AT NOON TODAY. WELL, IT'S JUST TOO
LATE. I MEAN, YOU JUST CAN'T KEEP CHANGING
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 172
AND UNCHANGING.
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY, DR. RECKHOW---
MR. REID: AND BY THE WAY, I WILL SAY
THIS, I WANT TO UNDERSTAND. ARE YOU TELLING
ME THAT HE'S NOT LISTED AS AN EXPERT BY THE
CO-OP?
MS. STINSON: NO, CERTAINLY NOT.
MR. REID: OKAY. SO, HE'S HERE BECAUSE
HE'S LISTED BY THE CO-OP, AND UNDER THE COURT
RULE, HE WAS TO HAVE HIS OPINIONS BY --
WHAT'S THE DATE ORIGINALLY, MARCH---
MR. FITZGERALD: FEBRUARY 28TH.
MR. REID: FEBRUARY 28TH. SO, YOU MADE
IT SOUND AS IF HE'S JUST SHOWING UP BECAUSE
HE WORKS AT DUKE, AND HE MIGHT BE WORKING ON
SOME OF THIS STUFF. WE'RE TAKING HIS
DEPOSITION BECAUSE IT WAS REPRESENTED TO US
THAT HE HAD OPINIONS, AND THAT THOSE OPINIONS
RELATE TO THE CASE.
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES:
Q. OKAY, DR. RECKHOW. WHO HAVE YOU TALKED WITH SINCE
WE WERE LAST TOGETHER?
MR. McCAUGHAN: GO AHEAD, YOU CAN
ANSWER.
†††††††††††††††乁坓剅മ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 173
WITNESS: WELL, I'M NOT CLOSE ENOUGH
TO THAT. (MOTIONING TO MICROPHONE.)
MR. McCAUGHAN: OH, I'M SORRY. I'M
SORRY.
A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU A FEW MINUTES AGO, I SPOKE
WITH CURT RICHARDSON ON THE PHONE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNOW WHY HE CALLED?
A. HE CALLED TO ASK ME ABOUT A CANDIDATE THAT WE HAD
VISITING THE DEPARTMENT YESTERDAY FOR A FACULTY
POSITION. AND HE CALLED TO ASK ME ABOUT THE
DEPOSITION.
Q. OKAY. AND TELL ME WHAT YOU SAID TO HIM AND WHAT
HE SAID TO YOU ABOUT THE DEPOSITION.
A. I JUST TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS GOING ON. IT WASN'T
THE MOST PLEASANT EXPERIENCE I'VE HAD. AND HE
COMMENTED ON THAT, AND AGREED THAT THAT WAS HIS
EXPERIENCE AS WELL.
Q. DID YOU DISCUSS THE SUBSTANCE OF THE CASE WITH
HIM?
A. I DIDN'T.
Q. DID HE DISCUSS THE SUBSTANCE OF THE CASE WITH YOU?
A. HE DID NOT.
Q. OR ANY OTHER TOPICS THAT CAME UP DURING THE
DEPOSITION?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 174
A. I -- AS I RECALL, I THINK I BRIEFLY OUTLINED THE
SORTS OF QUESTIONS THAT CAME UP, BUT WE DIDN'T
DWELL ON ANY OF THEM.
Q. WHAT DID YOU SAY TO HIM IN OUTLINING THE SORT OF
QUESTIONS THAT CAME UP?
A. I TOLD HIM THAT WE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT
SONG'S WORK IS VERY PRELIMINARY. I TOLD HIM THAT
WE TALKED ABOUT THE TRENDS PAPER BY WALKER, BUT I
MADE IT CLEAR THAT THAT DIDN'T RELATE TO WHAT WE
WERE DOING.
Q. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE?
A. I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING ELSE.
Q. WHAT COMMENTS DID HE MAKE IN RESPONSE TO THOSE --
THAT OUTLINE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU GAVE HIM?
A. I THINK -- I DON'T -- NOTHING IN PARTICULAR, HE
JUST OBSERVED.
Q. OKAY. NOW, WHEN WE LEFT YESTERDAY WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT FUNDING FOR SONG'S WORK, AND JUST SO I'M
CLEAR. WHEN I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS EARLIER ABOUT
WHETHER YOU WERE BEING -- WHETHER YOU'D BEEN
RETAINED, AND WHETHER YOU WERE BEING PAID FOR
TESTIFYING AND WORK AND SO FORTH, AND YOU SAID,
NO, TO ALL THOSE QUESTIONS. I TAKE IT THEN THAT
YOU DON'T CONSIDER THE FORTY THOUSAND DOLLAR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 175
($40,000.00) GIFT ANY CONSIDERATION FOR THE WORK
THAT YOU'RE DOING?
A. I DON'T -- EXCUSE ME. I'M NOT BEING PAID OUT OF
-- ANY SALARY MONEY FROM THAT GIFT.
Q. YOU PERSONALLY?
A. I PERSONALLY.
Q. ARE YOU GOING TO BE USING ANY OF THE THINGS THAT
THE OTHER TWENTY-FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS
($24,000.00) WILL PURCHASE IN YOUR WORK?
A. I PROBABLY WILL. IN FACT I WILL. WE PURCHASED
TWO COMPUTERS, AND WHILE I HAVE NOT BEEN A MAJOR
USER OF THE COMPUTERS, I HAVE USED ONE OF THE
COMPUTERS.
Q. NOW, IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THE ISSUE THAT
SONG IS GOING TO BE CONSIDERING IS A CRUCIAL ISSUE
IN THIS LITIGATION REGARDING THE EVERGLADES?
A. I GATHER THAT'S THE CASE.
Q. AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IS A CONTESTED ISSUE?
A. I NOW UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS.
Q. AND THAT THE SUGAR INDUSTRY, IN GENERAL, THE CO-OP
IN PARTICULAR, TAKES ONE VIEW OF THAT SUBJECT, AND
THE STATE OF FLORIDA, DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL
REGULATIONS, SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
DISTRICT TAKES ANOTHER VIEW OF THAT ISSUE?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 176
A. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.
Q. WHEN DID THE DISCUSSION FIRST OCCUR CONCERNING
THESE GIFTS TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. PROBABLY IT WAS ABOUT A YEAR AGO.
Q. WHO BROUGHT IT UP?
A. EITHER SONG OR CURT RICHARDSON.
Q. HOW WAS IT BROUGHT UP?
A. THAT SONG'S Ph.D. DISSERTATION WORK COULD BE
SUPPORTED THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. OKAY. AND ARE OTHER Ph.D. CANDIDATES -- OR DO
OTHER Ph.D. CANDIDATES HAVE THEIR WORK SUPPORTED
THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER?
A. I'M FAIRLY CERTAIN THAT'S THE CASE.
Q. OKAY. TELL ME THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
BEING SUPPORTED, THE GRADUATE STUDENTS, THROUGH
THE WETLAND CENTER.
A. I CAN ONLY GUESS. I'M NOT -- THE ACTIVITY THAT I
HAVE THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER IS THROUGH SONG.
KIMBERLY PIESLAK IS A STUDENT, I THINK, IN THE
WETLAND CENTER.
Q. AND IS SHE A Ph.D. CANDIDATE?
A. I BELIEVE SO.
Q. AND HOW IS SHE SUPPORTED THROUGH THE WETLAND
CENTER?
†䄠䑎䠠坏䤠⁓䡓⁅啓偐剏䕔⁄䡔佒䝕⁈䡔⁅䕗䱔乁ൄഊ ††††††††††††䕃呎剅ി
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 177
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. WELL, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW GRADUATE
STUDENTS ARE SUPPORTED GENERALLY.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. WHEN A GRADUATE STUDENT COMES TO DUKE, A Ph.D.
CANDIDATE, IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT, DO
THEY TYPICALLY GET FELLOWSHIPS OF SOME SORT, GET
MONEY OF SOME SORT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. HOW DO THEY USUALLY GET THAT MONEY?
A. THE POLICY THAT THE SCHOOL HAS IS TO SUPPORT -- TO
TRY TO SUPPORT INCOMING Ph.D. STUDENTS FOR THE
FIRST THREE YEARS, WITH THE HOPE THAT A FACULTY
MEMBER PICKS THE STUDENT UP ON A RESEARCH PROJECT,
AND BEGINS TO PROVIDE FUNDING AS THE STUDENT MOVES
OVER FROM COURSE WORK TO RESEARCH.
Q. OKAY. AND SO WHAT FORM DOES THIS -- THESE FIRST
THREE YEARS, WHAT FORM DOES THE SUPPORT TAKE?
A. IT OFTEN TAKES THE FORM OF TUITION PLUS FUNDS FOR
LIVING EXPENSES.
Q. IS -- IT'S JUST A CHECK THEY GET EVERY MONTH OR
SO?
A. I THINK THAT'S THE CASE.
Q. AND IS SET UP LIKE A SCHOLARSHIP, OR A LOAN, OR---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 178
A. IT'S -- IT'S -- IT WOULD BE A SCHOLARSHIP, OR A
FELLOWSHIP, OR A -- AND POSSIBLY INVOLVE A
TEACHING ASSISTANTSHIP.
Q. DOES THIS MONEY GENERALLY COME OUT OF WHAT I'LL
CALL GENERAL FUNDS OF WHATEVER SCHOOL IS
SUPPORTING A GRADUATE STUDENT?
A. YES.
Q. AS OPPOSED TO SOME SPECIFIC FOUNDATION OR DONOR
PAYING MONEY DIRECTLY TO THE STUDENT?
A. I HAVE TO SAY I'M NOT THAT FAMILIAR WITH THE
DETAILS. SOME OF THE MONEY COULD COME FROM A
FOUNDATION TO THE SCHOOL, AND THEN BE GIVEN OVER
AS FINANCIAL AID TO A Ph.D. STUDENT.
Q. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY SITUATIONS WHERE THE MONEY IS
EARMARKED FOR A PARTICULAR STUDENT FROM A
FOUNDATION OR OTHER DONOR?
A. YEAH. SOME STUDENTS APPLY FOR THEIR OWN MONEY,
AND -- AND THEREFORE, THAT MONEY IS DIRECTED TO
THEM.
Q. NOW, WHAT -- WHERE IS SONG IN THIS PROCESS?
A. SONG CAME TO DUKE, AS I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, TO
WORK WITH ME UNDER AN UNDERSTANDING THAT HE HAD
HIS OWN FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO SUPPORT HIS ENTIRE
GRADUATE EDUCATION. AND AFTER ARRIVING AND
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 179
FUNDING HIS WORK FOR A YEAR, HIS -- AS FAR AS I
KNOW, HIS PERSONAL SUPPORT DISAPPEARED. WE PICKED
HIM UP WITH THE MONEY FROM THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT, AS THE NATURE I JUST DESCRIBED, TO
COVER A SECOND YEAR. AS HE BEGAN TO MOVE FROM
COURSE WORK TO RESEARCH, HE NEEDED TO GAIN SUPPORT
ON RESEARCH PROJECTS. AND THAT'S WHEN THE SUPPORT
FROM THE WETLAND CENTER BEGAN.
Q. HE'S IN WHAT YEAR, NOW?
A. HE'S IN -- HE'S IN THE THIRD YEAR.
Q. HE'S COMPLETING HIS COURSE WORK STILL?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. SO, THAT NEXT YEAR WILL BE HIS FIRST YEAR -- THE
NEXT ACADEMIC YEAR WILL BE HIS FIRST YEAR IN
THE -- RESEARCH?
A. PRIMARILY INVOLVED WITH RESEARCH, THAT'S CORRECT.
UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND THUS FAR, HAS HIS MONEY ALL COME FROM THIS
GIFT THAT WE DISCUSSED?
A. NO, AS -- WELL, AS I MENTIONED, THE FIRST YEAR HE
PROVIDED HIS OWN SUPPORT.
Q. I MEANT SINCE DUKE'S BEEN GIVING HIM MONEY.
A. THE SECOND YEAR, AS I RECALL, HE WAS SUPPORTED
THROUGH THE FINANCIAL AID FROM THE SCHOOL, AS I
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 180
MENTIONED.
Q. THAT'S GENERIC AID.
A. YES. HE ALSO HAS HAD TEACHING ASSISTANCE THROUGH
THE SCHOOL.
Q. AND THEN IN HIS THIRD YEAR, WHERE WE ARE NOW---
A. THIS -- THIS ACADEMIC YEAR HE HAS SUPPORTED
HIMSELF WITH TEACHING ASSISTANCE AND THE FUNDS
FROM THE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. OKAY. NOW, LET'S GO BACK TO WHEN HE FIRST -- THIS
ISSUE CAME UP OF THE GIFT. AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER
WHETHER IT WAS SONG OR RICHARDSON THAT FIRST
THOUGHT OF THIS?
A. I'M SURE IT MUST -- IT WAS -- THE OPPORTUNITY
WOULD HAVE BEEN INITIATED BY RICHARDSON, BECAUSE
SONG -- SONG IS NOT IN A POSITION TO GO OUT AND
MAKE THOSE CONTACTS.
Q. AND WHEN DID YOU FIRST HEAR ABOUT THIS?
A. I DON'T RECALL, IT WAS ROUGHLY A YEAR AGO.
Q. AND IN WHAT STATE -- IN WHAT STAGE WAS THE PROCESS
WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD ABOUT IT?
A. BY PROCESS DO YOU MEAN---
Q. OF GETTING -- OF FINDING THE GIFT AND TURNING IT
INTO MONEY FOR SONG.
A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 181
Q. WELL, TELL ME EVERYTHING YOU REMEMBER ABOUT HOW IT
WAS CREATED; HOW IT CAME ABOUT.
A. SONG WAS INTERESTED IN WETLANDS, AND AS I RECALL,
HAD TALKED TO CURT RICHARDSON IN THE WETLAND
CENTER ABOUT PROJECTS, AND MY VAGUE RECOLLECTION
IS THAT THAT LED TO THIS OPPORTUNITY.
Q. HAD HE COME UP WITH THE TOPIC AT THAT POINT?
A. I THINK THAT HE HAD GENERALLY COME UP WITH THE
TOPIC OF LOOKING AT WETLANDS TRAPPING OF NUTRIENTS
AT THAT TIME.
Q. WHERE WOULD THE PAPERWORK CONCERNING ALL THIS
RESIDE?
A. WHAT PAPERWORK?
Q. CONCERNING THE GIFT AND THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT WENT
ON AND SO FORTH.
A. I ASSUME IT'S AT THE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. WOULD IT BE IN DR. RICHARDSON'S FILES, FOR
INSTANCE?
A. PROBABLY.
Q. NOW, YOU MENTIONED YESTERDAY, WHEN WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT SOME EXHIBITS, THAT YOU WERE SENDING
BIWEEKLY REPORTS INTO POLLMAN AND GREEN.
A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. AND YOU MENTIONED THAT THAT IS WHAT THEY ASKED
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 182
FOR.
A. YES.
Q. NOW, WHO IS THEY?
A. POLLMAN AND GREEN.
Q. NOW, HOW DID THEY GET INVOLVED IN THIS -- IN THE
LOOP OF THIS PARTICULAR GRANT OR GIFT?
A. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THEY ARE REPRESENTING THE
INDIVIDUALS WHO PROVIDED THE GIFT TO THE WETLAND
CENTER.
Q. IN THE LITIGATION?
A. UH-HUH (YES). YES.
Q. OKAY. WHEN DID IT FIRST COME TO YOUR ATTENTION
THAT THIS GIFT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH
LITIGATION?
A. I -- I -- I CAN'T SAY. I GUESS IT WAS MY
ASSUMPTION RIGHT FROM THE START THAT, IF THERE WAS
SUPPORT OF THIS NATURE CONCERNING WETLANDS
TRAPPING OF NUTRIENTS, THAT IT LIKELY HAD SOME
TIE-IN WITH LEGAL BATTLES.
Q. HOW WERE YOU ADVISED TO SEND BIWEEKLY REPORTS?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN HOW AM I ADVISED?
Q. WELL, WAS THERE A DOCUMENT, AN AGREEMENT, OR---
A. NO, I WAS JUST ASKED.
Q. BY WHOM?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 183
A. I THINK IT WAS BY CURT POLLMAN.
Q. AND DID THAT SEEM UNUSUAL TO YOU?
A. ONLY TO THE EXTENT THAT SONG WAS SO EARLY IN THE
WORK THAT I DIDN'T FEEL THERE WAS MUCH TO REPORT
ON AN EVERY-OTHER-WEEK BASIS.
Q. NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER GRADUATE STUDENTS WHO
ARE BEING FUNDED BY GRANTS FROM PARTIES WHO ARE IN
LITIGATION?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER GRADUATE STUDENTS TO WHOM
YOU REPORT -- WHOSE PROGRESS YOU REPORT TO
LAWYERS, OR TO OTHER CONSULTANTS WHO ARE INVOLVED
IN LITIGATION?
A. NO.
Q. WHEN DID YOU START SENDING IN BIWEEKLY REPORTS?
A. AS I RECALL, IT WAS LAST FALL.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU DO IT BIWEEKLY?
A. NO.
Q. HOW MANY DID YOU SEND IN?
A. I THINK ABOUT THREE.
Q. SO, THE ONES WE HAVE HERE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT
YOU'VE EVER SENT IN?
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY ARE.
Q. NOW, WHY DID YOU NOT SEND THEM IN BIWEEKLY?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 184
A. I HAD AGREED TO DO THIS VOLUNTARILY, AND I AGREED
IN GOOD FAITH, TO DO IT. I DIDN'T KEEP IT ON MY
AGENDA TO DO, AND AS THERE'S NOT PROGRESS ON AN
EVERY OTHER WEEK BASIS, I JUST DIDN'T DO IT.
Q. WELL, I'M CONFUSED. YOU SAY YOU AGREED TO DO THIS
VOLUNTARILY. I THOUGHT YOU BEFORE TOLD ME THAT
YOU'D AGREED TO DO THIS BECAUSE IT WAS A
REQUIREMENT OF THE GIFT---
A. I NEVER SAID THAT.
Q. ---THEY ASKED FOR IT.
A. I NEVER SAID THAT.
Q. I THOUGHT YOU TOLD ME THAT THE COOPERATIVE ASKED
FOR THESE REPORTS.
A. THEY ASKED. THAT'S RIGHT, THEY ASKED.
Q. AND YOU DIDN'T CONSIDER IT WAS A REQUIREMENT OF
THE GIFT?
A. NO.
Q. WHAT OTHER REQUIREMENTS OF THE GIFT ARE THERE?
A. I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A REQUIREMENT. YOU SAID WHAT
OTHER REQUIREMENTS. I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A
REQUIREMENT. I DON'T SEE ANY REQUIREMENTS OF THE
GIFT.
Q. WAS THIS GIFT -- WAS THERE ANY DOCUMENTATION
CONCERNING THIS GIFT THAT YOU'VE SEEN?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 185
A. I'M SORRY, SAY THAT AGAIN.
Q. WAS THERE ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THIS GIFT THAT
YOU'VE EVER SEEN?
A. YEAH, I'VE SEEN LETTERS -- SHORT LETTERS ON THE
NATURE OF A GIFT TO THE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. OKAY. AND WHERE ARE THOSE LETTERS?
A. I BELIEVE THEY'RE -- AS YOU ASKED BEFORE, AT THE
WETLAND CENTER.
Q. WHEN WAS IT DECIDED THAT YOU WOULD TESTIFY IN THE
LITIGATION CONCERNING THE WORK BEING DONE BY SONG
PURSUANT TO THE GIFT?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I THINK IT CAME UP SOME TIME
AFTER LAST SUMMER.
Q. HOW DID IT COME ABOUT THAT YOU WOULD TESTIFY BASED
UPON HIS WORK?
A. WELL -- GEE, I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK IT WAS MY
EXPECTATION THAT I WOULD ASSUME -- AS SONG IS A
NATIVE OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA, AND IS
NOT FAMILIAR WITH ACTIVITIES LIKE THIS, IT SEEMED
INAPPROPRIATE THAT HE WOULD BE ASKED TO TESTIFY ON
HIS WORK. SO, I WOULD, AS HIS ADVISER, ASSUME
THAT ROLE.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANY OF THE OTHER FACULTY MEMBERS
CONNECTED WITH THE WETLAND CENTER, WHO ARE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 186
TESTIFYING IN THIS CASE, ARE BEING PAID FOR THE
WORK THEY'RE DOING RELATED TO THE LITIGATION?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU CONSIDER THAT THIS GIFT IS ACTUALLY A
PAYMENT FOR CONSULTING IN THE LITIGATION?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS GIFT IS AN UNRESTRICTED
ELEEMOSYNARY GIFT BY SOMEBODY WHO IS CONCERNED
ABOUT THE BASIC SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH?
A. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE---
Q. CHARITABLE.
A. A CHARITABLE GIFT, BUT---
Q. BY SOMEBODY WHO CARES ABOUT RESEARCH.
A. I BELIEVE THAT THE GIFT IS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO
HAS A PERSPECTIVE ON THIS CASE. ON THE OTHER
HAND, I LOOK AT IT THAT IT IS A GIFT IN SUPPORT OF
RESEARCH, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M TREATING IT AS.
Q. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY OTHER GIFTS THAT SUPPORT
RESEARCH ON DISPUTED ISSUES IN LITIGATION?
A. NO.
Q. NOW, YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU'D DONE A NUMBER OF OTHER
CONSULTING JOBS. HAVE YOU EVER TESTIFIED BEFORE?
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY WHERE YOU EXPECT THAT YOU WILL
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 187
TESTIFY AT SOME POINT?
A. NO.
Q. IN ALL OF THE OTHER CONSULTING JOBS THAT YOU HAVE,
EITHER THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER OR PRIVATELY,
HAVE ANY OF THOSE BEEN STRUCTURED IN SUCH A WAY
THAT A GIFT WAS GIVEN TO THE WETLAND CENTER FOR
THE WORK THAT YOU WERE BEING ASKED TO DO AS A
CONSULTANT?
A. I HAVE NO CONSULTING THROUGH THE WETLAND CENTER.
Q. STRIKE THAT FROM THE QUESTION AND ANSWER IT, THEN,
PLEASE.
A. COULD REPHRASE -- STATE THE QUESTION, PLEASE?
Q. YEAH. OF ALL OF THE CONSULTING THAT YOU HAVE
DONE, HAVE YOU EVER HAD A SITUATION WHERE SOMEONE,
INSTEAD OF PAYING YOU FOR CONSULTING MADE A GIFT
TO THE UNIVERSITY; TO THE WETLAND CENTER?
A. NO.
Q. IF I WANTED TO SEE ALL OF THE RECORDS CONCERNING
THE GIFTS, GRANTS, SUPPORT OF THE WETLAND CENTER,
WHAT PERSON WOULD I TALK TO?
A. CURT RICHARDSON.
Q. SO, HE PERSONALLY KEEPS ALL THE RECORDS?
A. I DON'T KNOW, BUT HE'S THE FIRST PERSON I WOULD GO
TO.
††††††††††††佔മഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 188
Q. WELL, HAVE YOU APPLIED FOR GRANTS THROUGH THE
WETLAND CENTER BEFORE?
A. NO.
Q. SO, YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE BOOKS ARE
KEPT, SO TO SPEAK, ON THE WETLAND CENTER?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) IF I WANTED TO FIND WITHIN THE
EXHIBITS WE MARKED YESTERDAY, THE MOST CURRENT
CLEAREST STATEMENT OF EXACTLY THE PROJECT THAT
SONG IS GOING TO BE DOING, COULD YOU SHOW ME WHICH
DOCUMENT WOULD CONTAIN THAT?
A. NONE OF THEM DESCRIBE WHAT WE ANTICIPATE AT THIS
POINT HE'S GOING TO DO IN ENTIRETY. IT'S IN
PIECES, BUT THIS EXHIBIT TWENTY-THREE IS A
REASONABLE DESCRIPTION.
Q. OKAY. HOLD THAT FOR A SECOND, PLEASE. BY THE
WAY, REMIND ME -- AND I'M SURE YOU'VE TOLD ME THIS
BEFORE; I JUST NEED TO HAVE A POINT OF REFERENCE
-- WHEN DID -- WHEN WERE YOU FIRST TOLD, OR WHEN
WAS IT FIRST DISCUSSED THAT YOU WOULD ACTUALLY BE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 189
A WITNESS WHO WOULD TESTIFY IN THIS LITIGATION ON
BEHALF OF THE COOPERATIVE?
A. AS I MENTIONED A FEW MINUTES AGO, I RECALL IT WAS
SOME TIME LAST YEAR.
Q. DID ANYONE TELL YOU THAT THERE WAS A REQUIREMENT
THAT YOU COMPLETE YOUR WORK AND COME UP WITH YOUR
CONCLUSIONS BY A CERTAIN DATE?
A. BILL GREEN WAS -- LISTED DATES THAT HE WOULD LIKE
TO HAVE INFORMATION ON, AND I UNDERSTOOD THAT, AND
AT THE SAME TIME, I TOLD HIM THAT THIS WAS A Ph.D.
DISSERTATION THAT HAD A SCHEDULE, AND IT MIGHT NOT
MEET THOSE DATES.
Q. NOW, YOU'VE CHANGED WHAT I ASKED, AND I WANT TO
MAKE SURE THAT THAT DIDN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I
ASKED YOU REGARDING WHEN YOU WOULD BE REQUIRED TO
HAVE OPINIONS, AND YOU CHANGED IT TO GIVE HIM SOME
INFORMATION. DID YOU MEAN THAT CHANGE TO REFLECT
SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I SAID?
A. WELL, ONE THING YOU SAID IS, I WAS NEVER REQUIRED
TO HAVE OPINIONS. I HAVE NO REQUIREMENTS. I WAS
ASKED -- I WAS -- AS I RECALL, DATES WERE
SPECIFIED, AND I WAS ASKED TO HAVE INFORMATION, IF
POSSIBLE; AND I SAID, IF POSSIBLE, WE WILL, BUT
THIS IS A Ph.D. DISSERTATION, AND IT MAY TAKE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 190
CONSIDERABLY LONGER.
Q. WHAT INFORMATION WERE YOU ASKED TO HAVE?
A. RESULTS FROM OUR WORK.
Q. AND IN WHAT FORM DID YOU ENVISION THIS INFORMATION
WOULD BE?
A. I HADN'T -- I HADN'T ENVISIONED IT TO BE OF ANY
PRECISE FORM OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT OUR WORK
MIGHT PROVIDE SCIENTIFIC SUPPORT FOR THE NATURE OF
WETLANDS TRAPPING.
Q. DID YOU HAVE IN YOUR MIND A WORKING HYPOTHESIS?
A. NO. OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT WETLANDS ARE -- WILL
TRAP PHOSPHORUS.
Q. AND WHAT THEN WERE YOU TRYING TO CONCLUDE? WHAT
DID YOU HOPE TO CONCLUDE?
A. I HOPED TO SEE A DISSERTATION COME FROM THIS FROM
SONG.
Q. OKAY. YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BE
PRESENTED AS AN EXPERT WITNESS BY THE COOPERATIVE
IN LITIGATION?
A. YES.
Q. AND YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS AN ISSUE
CONCERNING WHETHER OR NOT STA'S WOULD WORK?
A. I UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS AN ISSUE CONCERNING
THE DESIGN OF WETLANDS AS NUTRIENT TRAPS.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 191
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU READ THE SWIM PLAN, BY THE WAY?
A. I -- I'M SURE I'VE LOOKED AT PARTS OF IT.
Q. SO, YOU'RE GENERALLY FAMILIAR WITH THE PROGRAM
THAT IS PROPOSED IN THE SWIM PLAN?
A. JUST VAGUELY, CAUSE IT'S BEEN QUITE SOME TIME.
Q. DID YOU UNDERSTAND THERE WAS A DISPUTE OVER
WHETHER DATA CONCERNING THE ENTRAPMENT OF
NUTRIENTS IN WCA-2A COULD BE TRANSFERRED TO STA'S
WHICH WOULD BE BUILT ON FARMLAND?
A. I DIDN'T UNDER -- DIDN'T -- I WAS NOT AWARE OF
THAT DISPUTE.
Q. WOULD YOU ENVISION THAT ANY WORK THAT YOU DO -- OR
THAT SONG WOULD DO, WOULD SHED ANY LIGHT ON THAT
QUESTION?
A. ON WHETHER OR NOT THE DATA WERE TRANSFERRABLE?
Q. RIGHT.
A. IT'S POSSIBLE. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. WERE YOU ATTEMPTING TO DISCOVER THE RATE AT WHICH
WETLANDS WOULD TRAP PHOSPHORUS?
A. YES. I HOPE THAT THE MODELING WORK THAT SONG AND
I DO, AS I MENTIONED TO YOU YESTERDAY, PROVIDES AN
INDICATION OF THAT.
Q. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT ANY INFORMATION CONCERNING THAT
TOPIC PREVIOUSLY?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 192
A. I'VE -- NOT RECENTLY, BUT I HAVE LOOKED AT
SECTIONS OF SOME OF THE EXHIBITS WHICH DO DISCUSS
THAT TOPIC.
Q. DO YOU -- ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT THE SWIM PLAN --
WHAT POSITION THE SWIM PLAN TAKES WITH REGARD TO
THAT TOPIC---
A. NOT---
Q. ---THE RATE OF ENTRAPMENT?
A. NO.
Q. ARE YOU AWARE OF THE POSITION TAKEN BY THE DUKE
WETLAND CENTER PEOPLE ON THAT TOPIC?
A. I KNOW ONLY THAT THERE'S A DISPUTE.
Q. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT EACH SIDE'S VIEW IS?
A. I KNOW THAT IT DIFFERS.
Q. DO YOU KNOW THAT THE RATE OF PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE
BEARS ON THE SIZE -- THE NECESSARY SIZE OF THE
WETLANDS THAT ARE BEING DESIGNED?
A. BY RATE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WHAT UNIT?
Q. THE RATE OF UPTAKE.
A. THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF TRAPPING OF---
Q. SURE.
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU READ THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER
ANNUAL REPORTS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 193
A. NO.
Q. HAVE YOU TALKED TO ANYBODY THAT CONTRIBUTED TO
THOSE ABOUT WHAT'S IN THEM?
A. I HAVEN'T, SPECIFICALLY, ASKED ABOUT WHAT'S IN
THEM.
Q. IS THERE ANY REASON YOU HAVEN'T READ THEM?
A. I HAVE NO REASON TO AT THIS POINT.
Q. HAVE YOU AND SONG EVER TALKED ABOUT WHAT'S IN
THEM?
A. I -- NOT DIRECTLY.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THEY CONTAIN
INFORMATION RELATING DIRECTLY TO THE WORK THAT
SONG'S GOING TO BE DOING?
A. I SUSPECT THAT THEY DO, BUT I -- UNTIL I LOOK AT
THEM, I CAN'T BE SURE.
Q. BUT AT THIS POINT, EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE BEEN
ADVISING AND CONSULTING WITH SONG FOR A YEAR OR
TWO, AND YOU KNOW WHAT HIS PROPOSED DISSERTATION
TOPIC IS, NEITHER OF YOU HAVE LOOKED AT OR TALKED
ABOUT THE MATERIAL CREATED BY THIS VERY SAME
WETLAND CENTER THAT'S SUPPORTING HIM?
A. AS I MENTIONED TO YOU BEFORE, MOST OF SONG'S
ACTIVITIES, UP TO THIS POINT, HAVE INVOLVED COURSE
WORK. WE'RE IN THE EARLY STAGES OF DEVELOPING HIS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 194
PROPOSAL.
Q. I GUESS THAT MEANS, NO.
A. IF YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION I'LL TRY TO GIVE IT
THAT YES OR NO.
Q. THE QUESTION WAS, EVEN THOUGH THERE'S INFORMATION
IN THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER MATERIAL, THE SAME
WETLAND CENTER THAT'S SUPPORTING SONG, WHICH
RELATES DIRECTLY TO THE TASK THAT YOU AND SONG ARE
UNDERTAKING, NEITHER OF YOU HAVE LOOKED AT IT.
AND YOU HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT WHAT'S IN THAT
MATERIAL.
A. I CAN'T SPEAK FOR SONG.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER SONG'S LOOKED AT
IT?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. HAS HE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT IT?
A. HE HASN'T COME UP TO ME AND SAID, THIS INFORMATION
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS IN THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER
ANNUAL REPORT.
Q. OKAY. I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT A LOT OF TIMES, YOU
MIGHT GET THE IMPRESSION SONG READ SOMETHING BY
COMMENTS THEY MAKE---
A. THEN THE---
Q. ---THAT AREN'T QUITE AS DIRECT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 195
A. YEAH. THEN THE ANSWER IS NO, I'M NOT AWARE THAT
HE---
Q. AND YOU HAVEN'T READ IT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO SONG ABOUT IT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. NOW, IN -- OH, GOING BACK TO THE OTHER
QUESTION, THEN, THAT I STARTED THIS LINE WITH.
YOU WERE TOLD, YOU SAID, BY BILL GREEN THAT YOU
HAD TO HAVE SOME INFORMATION BY A CERTAIN DATE.
A. HE DIDN'T SAY I HAD TO HAVE SOME INFORMATION, HE
ASKED IF -- HE -- HE WOULD LIKE -- HE WISHED THAT
I WOULD. THERE WAS NEVER ANY REQUIREMENT.
Q. DID HE EVER TELL YOU THERE WAS A COURT ORDER THAT
REQUIRED YOU TO HAVE OPINIONS BY A CERTAIN DATE?
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO FORM.
MR. McCAUGHAN: YOU CAN ANSWER.
WITNESS: OKAY.
A. I DON'T THINK HE STATED ANYTHING QUITE IN THAT
WAY; I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. ARE YOU AWARE THAT THERE'S A COURT ORDER THAT
REQUIRE YOUR OPINIONS BE FINALIZED BY A CERTAIN
DATE?
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO FORM.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 196
A. I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT AS THAT.
Q. NOW, YOU WERE ALSO HAVING DISCUSSIONS ALONG THE
WAY WITH THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE ABOUT TESTIFYING IN
THIS CASE ON THEIR BEHALF AS WELL, IS THAT
CORRECT?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING DISCUSSIONS WITH THE SUGAR
CANE LEAGUE, AND TESTIFYING IN THEIR BEHALF IN
QUITE SOME TIME.
Q. DID THEY TELL -- EVER TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE LISTED
IN THE COURT FILINGS AS AN EXPERT WITNESS WHO
WOULD BE TESTIFYING ON THEIR BEHALF?
A. I -- THEY MAY HAVE A YEAR AND A HALF, TWO YEARS
AGO. I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. WHEN WAS THIS FILED?
A. OCTOBER 26.
Q. DID THEY EVER TELL YOU, IN THE VICINITY OF OCTOBER
26, 1992, THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BE AN EXPERT
WITNESS WHO WOULD TESTIFY ON BEHALF OF THE SUGAR
CANE LEAGUE?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. DID ANYONE WHO REPRESENTS THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE,
LAWYERS, SOMEONE FROM PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THEM.
Q. DID ANYBODY FROM THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE EVER TELL
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 197
YOU THAT YOU WERE REQUIRED TO HAVE OPINIONS,
PURSUANT TO A COURT ORDER, BY FEBRUARY OF 1993?
MR. RUSSELL: OBJECT TO FORM.
A. I DON'T REMEMBER BEING TOLD THAT.
Q. DID ANYBODY FROM THE SUGAR CANE LEAGUE TELL YOU
THAT THEY REPRESENTED, IN A FILING WITH THE COURT,
THAT YOU WOULD HAVE YOUR FINAL OPINIONS BY
FEBRUARY 28, 1993?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.
Q. NOW YESTERDAY, LOOKING AT EXHIBIT 23, YOU TOLD ME
THAT THIS WAS THE-- THERE WAS NOTHING OMITTED. WE
LOOKED AT THE PAGE, TOWARD THE END OF THE PAGE.
A. UNDER APPLICATION OF THE MODEL?
Q. RIGHT.
A. YEAH.
Q. AND BEYOND, AND I THINK YOU TOLD ME THAT THAT WAS
A COMPLETE DOCUMENT.
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, IT IS.
Q. ALL RIGHT, LET ME SHOW YOU---
MR. REID: LET ME MARK AS EXHIBIT 24,
PLEASE -- OH, I'M SORRY.
(THEREUPON, THE DOCUMENT REFERRED
TO BELOW WAS MARKED AS DEPOSITION
EXHIBIT NO. 25 - KENNETH H. RECKHOW,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 198
DEPOSITION - FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) THE DOCUMENT -- THIS MARKING AT THE
TOP IS NOT PART OF THE DOCUMENT, IT'S A NOTE THAT
I MADE ON MY COPY. IT JUST SAYS PRODUCED BY
GHERINI. I SHOW YOU A DOCUMENT WHICH IS ENTITLED
"AN EMPIRICAL MODEL OF PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION
FOR WAC-2A OF THE EVERGLADES" BY THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER, AUGUST, 1992, AND ASK YOU IF YOU'VE SEEN
THAT BEFORE.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
A. I PROBABLY HAVE. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
Q. WHAT IS THAT DOCUMENT?
A. IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE SOMETHING THAT SONG WAS
INVOLVED IN DOING. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER ANYONE
ELSE WAS INVOLVED AS WELL, BUT THE STATISTICAL
WORK MUST HAVE BEEN SONG'S.
Q. HAVE YOU REVIEWED THIS, I ASSUME?
A. WELL, AS I SAID, I PROBABLY HAVE SEEN IT, BUT ON
THAT BASIS, I CAN'T RECALL REVIEWING IT.
Q. WELL, YOU REMEMBER REVIEWING EXHIBIT 25, YOU TOLD
ME, I BELIEVE -- I'M SORRY, 23 YOU TOLD ME.
A. YEAH, THESE ARE MY NOTES.
Q. AND HOW -- WHAT'S THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN 23 AND
25 EXHIBIT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 199
A. WELL, I REMEMBER REVIEWING THIS, BECAUSE I SEE MY
NOTES ON IT. YOU KNOW, I CAN GO OVER AND I CAN
SEE THAT THEY LOOK -- SECTIONS ARE PRETTY MUCH THE
SAME.
Q. SO WE'RE CLEAR THEN, ON 23 YOU HAVE AN INDEPENDENT
RECOLLECTION OF REVIEWING IT---
A. BECAUSE MY HANDWRITTEN NOTES ARE ON IT.
Q. ---AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE A VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL
DOCUMENT, EXHIBIT 25, YOUR TESTIMONY IS YOU HAVE
NO RECOLLECTION OF REVIEWING IT.
A. I SAID I PROBABLY HAVE LOOKED AT IT. I THINK
THAT'S WHAT I JUST SAID, EARLIER.
Q. IS SONG AUTHORIZED TO DISTRIBUTE MATERIALS UNDER
THE HEADING OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. WELL, WHO IS AUTHORIZED TO DO THAT?
A. YOU'D HAVE TO ASK CURT RICHARDSON. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. WHAT'S YOUR CONNECTION WITH THE WETLAND CENTER?
A. I'M LISTED AS ONE OF THE FACULTY IN THE WETLAND
CENTER.
Q. AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA AS TO ANY UNIVERSITY
REGULATIONS OR PROTOCOLS CONCERNING WHEN YOU CAN
USE THE WETLAND CENTER NAME, AND WHEN YOU CAN'T?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 200
Q. AND YOU -- DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER A
GRADUATE STUDENT, GENERALLY, IS AUTHORIZED TO
DISTRIBUTE MATERIALS UNDER THE HEADING OF DUKE
UNIVERSITY?
A. WHETHER A GRADUATE STUDENT IS AUTHORIZED TO
DISTRIBUTE MATERIAL UNDER THE HEADING OF DUKE
UNIVERSITY?
Q. EXACTLY.
A. I -- I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S ANY GROUP AT DUKE
THAT IS -- SERVES AS AN AUTHORIZING ORGANIZATION
TO PERMIT OR REJECT THAT.
Q. OKAY. IF I SAW -- IF ONE SEE'S EXHIBIT 23 OR 25,
EITHER ONE.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. YOU WOULD GET THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS A REPORT
ISSUED BY THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER. IS
THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
Q. YOU'D HAVE NO IDEA THAT THIS WAS WRITTEN BY A
GRADUATE STUDENT WHO'S IN THE THIRD YEAR OF THEIR
PROGRAM AT DUKE.
A. YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS
APPROPRIATE?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 201
A. IT'S -- I HAVE NO OPINION ON IT.
Q. DO YOU HAVE -- DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINION AS TO
WHETHER PEOPLE REACT DIFFERENTLY TO DOCUMENTATION
WHICH HAS THE STAMP, THE NAME OF THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER ON IT, AS OPPOSED TO SOME INDIVIDUAL'S NAME
THAT, PERHAPS, NO ONE'S EVER HEARD OF.
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO FORM.
A. I SUSPECT THAT PEOPLE WILL MAKE JUDGMENTS ON A
DOCUMENT ON THE BASIS OF WHO'S IDENTIFIED AS THE
AUTHOR, OR WHAT GROUP IS IDENTIFIED AS THE AUTHOR.
Q. IS IT TYPICAL THAT A REPORT IS ISSUED FROM THE
WETLAND CENTER WITHOUT ANY AUTHOR IDENTIFIED?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. EITHER WAY, I MEAN, YOU'VE NEVER SEEN DOCUMENTS
WITH OR WITHOUT AUTHORS?
A. I HAVE NO INVOLVEMENT WITH THE PUBLICATIONS FROM
THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, IN A FORMAL WAY.
Q. AND YOU'VE NEVER LOOKED AT ANY?
A. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS WITH
REGARD TO THOSE REPORTS EARLIER.
Q. OKAY. MY QUESTION IS NOT ASKING YOU FOR YOUR
OPINION ON THE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS. MY
QUESTION IS ASKING YOU WHETHER YOU, AS AN
INDIVIDUAL, HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AS TO
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 202
WHETHER THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER TYPICALLY INCLUDES
AUTHORS, OR TYPICALLY DOES NOT INCLUDE AUTHORS.
A. NO, I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT.
Q. BASED ON WHAT YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN.
A. IT LOOKS LIKE -- WELL, RIGHT HERE, THEY'RE NOT
INCLUDING AUTHORS.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINION AS TO -- OR ANY KNOWLEDGE
OF THE PRACTICE IN OTHER DEPARTMENTS OR OTHER
SCHOOLS AT DUKE, CONCERNING THE SAME SUBJECT?
A. I DON'T KNOW. MY PERSONAL APPROACH IS TO INCLUDE
AUTHORS, ALWAYS.
Q. WHEN YOU REVIEWED THIS FOR SONG, DID YOU SUGGEST
TO HIM THAT AN AUTHOR'S NAME BE PLACED ON IT?
A. I DIDN'T.
Q. NOW, WHO IS GHERINI?
A. STEVE GHERINI IS A CONSULTANT WITH TETRA TECH.
Q. AND WHAT IS TETRA TECH?
A. TETRA TECH IS A CONSULTING FIRM.
Q. AND WHAT IS THEIR ROLE RELATING TO THE LITIGATION,
AS FAR AS YOU KNOW?
A. I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY'VE BEEN HIRED TO DO SOME
MODELING IN THE WETLANDS.
Q. BY WHOM?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 203
Q. AND HAVE YOU HAD ANY DIRECT DEALINGS WITH ANYBODY
FROM TETRA TECH?
A. ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT?
Q. WELL, LET'S START BROAD, SO WE DON'T MISS
ANYTHING. HAVE YOU HAD DEALINGS WITH TETRA TECH
ON ANYTHING?
A. I'VE WORKED WITH TETRA TECH A FEW TIMES.
Q. OKAY, AND TELL ME WHAT YOU'VE DONE WITH TETRA
TECH.
A. I'VE WORKED WITH THEM ON ACIDIFICATION IN THE
ADIRONDACKS, AND ON WATER QUALITY MODELING FOR
EPA.
Q. WATER QUALITY MODELING?
A. FOR EPA.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU DO THAT?
A. OH, AT VARIOUS TIMES OVER THE PAST EIGHT YEARS.
Q. PAST EIGHT YEARS?
A. YEAH.
Q. YOU MEAN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY?
A. YEAH.
Q. OH, I'M SORRY.
A. YEAH, I'M SORRY. YEAH, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
AGENCY, YEAH.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND HAVE YOU DONE -- HAVE YOU HAD ANY
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 204
CONTACT WITH THEM CONCERNING THIS PARTICULAR
LITIGATION?
A. AS I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, I HAD FORGOTTEN THE
NAME, BUT A NAME WAS GIVEN. RON MUNSON CALLED ME
ABOUT OUR MODELING WORK, AND THEN, AS I WAS
REMINDED BY ONE OF THE EXHIBITS, HE FAXED SOME
MATERIAL, AND I INDICATED TO HIM, AT THAT TIME,
THAT WE HAD NO MODEL.
Q. DID YOU SEND -- EVER SEND INFORMATION TO TETRA
TECH?
A. I DON'T RECALL SENDING ANY ON THIS ACTIVITY.
Q. EXHIBIT -- I'LL TELL YOU EXHIBIT 25 CAME OUT OF
MR. GHERINI'S RECORDS.
A. I NOTICED THAT.
Q. THAT WAS MY NOTE, JUST SO I REMEMBERED WHICH COPY
WAS WHICH. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MR. GHERINI
OBTAINED A COPY OF YOUR GRADUATE STUDENT'S WORK?
A. NO.
Q. TELL ME OR GIVE ME, IF YOU WILL, A SUMMARY OF THE
PROPOSAL THAT'S REPRESENTED BY EXHIBIT 23?
A. SONG IS GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THE APPLICATION OF
NONPARAMETRIC REGRESSION TO RELATE PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATION FLOWING OUT OF WETLANDS TO THE
LOADING, DEPTH, WATER RESONANCE, TIME AND OTHER
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 205
VARIABLES THAT APPEAR TO BE IMPORTANT IN
DETERMINING THE TRAPPING EFFICIENCY OF WETLANDS.
Q. OKAY. I'M JUST LOOKING FOR SOMETHING. I'LL BE
RIGHT WITH YOU.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
MR. REID: LET'S TAKE A BREAK, OKAY?
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
EXAMINATION BY MR. REID CONTINUES:
Q. CONTINUE TO LOOK AT EXHIBIT 23 OR 25. THIS
APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN PRINTED. DOES IT LOOK THAT
WAY TO YOU?
A. BY PRINTED, YOU MEAN---
Q. AS OPPOSED TO TYPED? OR DO YOU HAVE TYPEWRITERS
IN THE WETLAND CENTER THAT LOOK LIKE THAT?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT EQUIPMENT THE WETLAND CENTER HAS
FOR PRODUCING DOCUMENTS, BUT IT -- I SUSPECT THAT
THIS IS OFF OF A WORD PROCESSING AND A LASER
PRINTER.
Q. AND THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN PREPARED IN -- BOTH
VERSIONS IN AUGUST OF '92. I THINK IT'S NOTED ON
THERE.
A. YES.
Q. NOW, WHERE WAS YOUR GRADUATE STUDENT AT THAT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 206
POINT? HE WAS -- HE HAD COMPLETED TWO YEARS OF
HIS COURSE WORK. IS THAT CORRECT?
MS. STINSON: I'M JUST TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT WHAT 24 IS? WHAT'S THE INTERVENING
DOCUMENT?
MR. FITZGERALD: 24 ARE THE PRELIMINARY
REPORTS---
MR. REID: THE BI-WEEKLY REPORTS.
MS. STINSON: OKAY.
Q. (BY MR. REID) HE WOULD HAVE COMPLETED HIS TWO
YEARS OF -- TWO OF HIS THREE YEARS OF COURSE WORK
WOULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETED.
A. I THINK THAT SONG -- I HAVE SEVEN -- I HAVE EIGHT
GRADUATE Ph.D. STUDENTS NOW AND I CAN'T RECALL
EXACTLY WHEN EACH ARRIVED, BUT I THINK THAT SONG
ARRIVED IN JANUARY. SO THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN AFTER
A YEAR AND A HALF.
Q. SO THAT MEANS HE'D STILL HAVE A YEAR AND A HALF OF
COURSE WORK TO DO?
A. WELL, IT ISN'T SET UP NECESSARILY THAT WAY. HE
HAS A CERTAIN NUMBER OF UNITS, 60 UNITS OF CREDIT.
Q. AND AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE MOST RECENT
STATEMENT OF WHAT HE IS GOING TO BE PROPOSING THIS
COMING AUGUST, TO THE COMMITTEE FOR HIS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 207
DISSERTATION?
A. THIS IS AS RECENT AND AS THOROUGH A STATEMENT AS
I'M AWARE OF.
Q. IS IT NORMAL THAT A GRADUATE STUDENT WOULD HAVE A
STATEMENT, SUCH AS THIS, PREPARED A YEAR BEFORE
GOING TO THE COMMITTEE TO HAVE THE DISSERTATION
APPROVED?
A. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANYTHING NORMAL.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER KNOWN THAT TO HAPPEN BEFORE?
A. I CAN'T RECALL SPECIFICS. IT'S NOT AT ALL
SURPRISING.
Q. ARE YOU -- DO YOU KNOW OF SITUATIONS WHERE WORK,
SUCH AS THIS, HAS BEEN DISTRIBUTED TO THE PUBLIC
AT LARGE?
MS. STINSON: OBJECT TO FORM.
A. I -- I'M NOT AWARE, BUT I HAVE NO OBJECTION.
Q. IS THERE ANY -- ARE THERE ANY REQUIREMENTS OR
GUIDELINES AT DUKE UNIVERSITY CONCERNING RESEARCH
DONE BY PEOPLE AFFILIATED WITH DUKE, WITH REGARD
TO WHEN THAT RESEARCH CAN BE DISTRIBUTED?
A. NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.
Q. THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT OF ANY PEER REVIEW OF
RESEARCH DONE BY SCIENTISTS AT DUKE?
A. EACH RESEARCHER HAS HIS OR HER OWN APPROACH.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 208
Q. ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH DISTRIBUTING EXHIBIT 25
TO THE PUBLIC IN AUGUST OF 19 -- OR SOMETIME AFTER
AUGUST OF 1992?
A. I HAVE NO OBJECTION.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THIS DOCUMENT -- STRIKE THAT.
YOU ARE, IN EFFECT, THE DUKE UNIVERSITY EMPLOYEE
WHO SUPERVISES -- WHO'S IN CHARGE OF SONG?
A. I AM HIS ADVISOR.
Q. DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE IN CHARGE OF HIM?
A. THAT MEANS I AM ADVISING HIM ON HIS GRADUATE
PROGRAM, AND HIS DISSERTATION.
Q. DOES ANYBODY ELSE AT DUKE UNIVERSITY HAVE ANY SAY
OR ANY CONTROL OVER WHAT HE DOES?
A. YES.
Q. WHO WOULD THAT BE?
A. FACULTY WHO HAVE EMPLOYED HIM AS A TEACHING
ASSISTANT.
Q. OKAY. AND THAT WOULD BE WITH REGARD TO THE
TEACHING HE'S DOING?
A. YES.
Q. YOU'D BE THE ONLY PERSON AT DUKE WHO WOULD BE
RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING HIS RESEARCH?
A. THAT'S NOT CORRECT.
Q. WHO ELSE WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING HIS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 209
RESEARCH?
A. HIS DISSERTATION COMMITTEE.
Q. AND THAT WON'T COME INTO PLACE UNTIL NEXT AUGUST?
A. THAT WILL COME -- THAT WILL BE IDENTIFIED OVER THE
NEXT THREE OR FOUR MONTHS.
Q. SO IT DOESN'T EXIST TODAY?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. SO AS OF AUGUST OF '92, WHEN THIS -- WHEN EXHIBITS
23 OR 25 WERE PREPARED AND SUBSEQUENTLY
DISTRIBUTED, YOU WERE THE ONLY PERSON AT DUKE WHO
WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS INDIVIDUAL'S RESEARCH?
A. CURT RICHARDSON, I'M CERTAIN WAS INVOLVED IN
DISCUSSIONS WITH SONG.
Q. NOW WHY WOULD HE BE INVOLVED?
A. BECAUSE HE'S -- SONG'S WORK INVOLVES WETLANDS
TRAPPING OF NUTRIENTS; AND HE'S A WETLAND
SCIENTIST.
Q. WELL, TO THE EXTENT THERE'S SOMETHING IN HERE
ABOUT STATISTICS, DOES THAT MEAN SOMEBODY IN THE
STATISTICS SCHOOL WOULD HAVE SOME CONTROL OVER
RESEARCH DONE BY THIS STUDENT?
A. IT MEANS THAT WE'RE LIKELY TO HAVE SOMEONE ON HIS
COMMITTEE WHO'S A STATISTICIAN.
Q. I'M TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW, BEFORE THIS COMMITTEE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 210
IS FORMED?
A. WE -- HE QUITE LIKELY HAS CONSULTED WITH FACULTY
AT THE UNIVERSITY ON STATISTICS.
Q. OKAY. WELL, WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IS, WITH
THE PROCEDURES AT DUKE, CAN ANYBODY WHO GO --
WHO'S AT DUKE, PREPARE RESEARCH, PUT THE NAME OF
DUKE UNIVERSITY ON IT, WITHOUT ANY PERSON'S NAME,
AND SEND IT OUT TO THE WORLD AT LARGE, WITHOUT ANY
CONTROL AT ALL?
MR. McCAUGHAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
HAVE WE ESTABLISHED THAT IT'S BEEN SENT TO
THE WORLD?
MR. REID: WAIT JUST A SECOND. JUST A
SECOND. NO OFFENSE, BUT YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT
COUNSEL OF RECORD. IF THEY WANT TO OBJECT,
THAT'S FINE. YOU KNOW.
MS. STINSON: I THINK---
MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M APPEARING AS COUNSEL
FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY, AND YOU HAVE ONE OF OUR
EMPLOYEES BEING DEPOSED.
MR. REID: THAT'S RIGHT.
MR. McCAUGHAN: AND YOU'RE ASKING A
QUESTION WHICH IS CONFUSING AND ACTUALLY
NONSENSICAL. WHAT IS THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 211
WORLD THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
MR. REID: WELL, WE DON'T KNOW, DO WE?
I'D BE HAPPY FOR YOU TO TELL ME---
MR. McCAUGHAN: IT HAS NOT---
MR. REID: ---WHO DUKE HAS DISTRIBUTED
THIS TO.
MR. McCAUGHAN: ---IT HAS NOT -- IT HAS
NOT BEEN ESTABLISHED.
MR. REID: AND ONLY DUKE CAN ESTABLISH
THAT, IT APPEARS, EXCEPT WE DO KNOW IT GOT
INTO THE HANDS OF A MR. GHERINI, OUT WEST, SO
WE KNOW THAT, AT LEAST. NOW, GOING BACK TO
MY QUESTION.
Q. (BY MR. REID) WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT IS,
DOES DUKE HAVE ANY AUTHORITY OR ANY RULES WITH
REGARD TO WHEN SOMEONE AFFILIATED WITH DUKE CAN
PREPARE A DOCUMENT, RESEARCH, PUT THE NAME OF DUKE
ON IT AND DISTRIBUTE IT TO SOMEONE OUTSIDE OF
DUKE?
A. I DON'T KNOW AS THEY HAVE ANY RULES ON THAT.
Q. DO YOU CONSIDER THERE'S ANY PROBLEM WITH
DISTRIBUTING THIS DOCUMENT TO OUTSIDERS AT THE
TIME IT WAS PREPARED?
MR. RUSSELL: OBJECT TO THE FORM.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 212
A. I'D HAVE TO LOOK IT OVER CAREFULLY AND THINK ABOUT
IT, BUT AT FIRST GLANCE I HAVE NO PROBLEM.
Q. WHEN YOU REVIEWED THIS, DID YOU -- AT THAT POINT,
WERE YOU LOOKING IT OVER CAREFULLY AND THINKING
ABOUT IT?
A. I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT, NOT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE
OF IT BEING DISTRIBUTED TO PEOPLE. I WAS LOOKING
AT IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A STATEMENT AT THAT
STAGE OF SONG'S ACADEMIC PROGRAM OF WHERE HIS
RESEARCH WAS HEADED.
Q. AND YOU MENTIONED THAT CURTIS RICHARDSON MAY HAVE
HAD SOME INPUT INTO THIS DOCUMENT. DO YOU KNOW
WHETHER HE DID, IN FACT, OR NOT?
A. I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN.
Q. IS HE---
A. I THINK, BECAUSE IT SAYS DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND
CENTER THAT HE PROBABLY DID.
Q. WOULD HIS INVOLVEMENT BE BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN
RETAINED BY THE SUGAR INTEREST TO PROVIDE
CONSULTING AND TESTIMONY IN THIS LITIGATION?
A. NOT NECESSARILY.
Q. WHO EDITED OR CHANGED THIS DOCUMENT---
A. I---
Q. ---ON EXHIBIT 23 TO EXHIBIT 25?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 213
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. OKAY. LOOK AT THE LAST -- LOOK AT PAGE SEVEN.
A. ON WHICH EXHIBIT?
Q. OF 25, PLEASE. ON THE LAST -- IN THE LAST
PARAGRAPH ABOUT THE SIXTH LINE UP, IN THE MIDDLE.
IT BEGINS "THE AVERAGE NET RETENTION..." DO YOU
SEE THAT SENTENCE?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. READ THAT TO YOURSELF. JUST READ THE REST OF THE
PARAGRAPH.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY, HAVE YOU READ IT?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. NOW, THE WAY I -- THE WAY I UNDERSTAND
THAT, SONG -- OR I GUESS WE SHOULD SAY THE DUKE
WETLAND CENTER IS SAYING THAT BASED ON
RICHARDSON'S WORK, THERE WAS -- THE AVERAGE NET
RETENTION RATE WAS 79.63 TONS A YEAR, CORRECT?
A. YES.
Q. AND IF YOU APPLY THE AVERAGE PHOSPHORUS RETENTION
RATE OF .63 GRAMS -- YOU'D BETTER HELP ME HERE,
GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR?
A. AND WHERE'S IS THAT FIGURE?
Q. IT'S ABOUT THREE LINES UP FROM WHERE YOU STARTED.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 214
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY, IS THAT -- AM I READING THAT CORRECT?
A. .63 GRAMS PER METER SQUARED A YEAR, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. NOW THAT'S RICHARDSON'S NUMBER, IS THAT CORRECT?
A. RICHARDSON REPORTED, YES.
Q. THAT THE AVERAGE PHOSPHORUS RETENTION RATE WAS .63
GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND IF YOU TAKE THE TONNAGE, THE CALCULATION LEADS
TO THE REQUIREMENT OF 12,600 HECTARES. IS THAT
CORRECT?
A. HECTARES.
Q. HECTARES, RIGHT. AND THAT'S ROUGHLY 31,000 ACRES,
IS THAT CORRECT?
A. I'LL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT ON THE CONVERSION.
Q. DOES THAT SEEM ABOUT RIGHT TO YOU?
A. I JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD I DON'T RECALL THE
CONVERSION BETWEEN HECTARES AND ACRES.
Q. OKAY. SO, THE WAY I READ THIS, BASED ON
RICHARDSON'S STATEMENT CONCERNING THE RETENTION
RATE OF PHOSPHORUS, AND THE -- AND RICHARDSON'S
CALCULATION AS TO THE TONS WHICH ARE RETAINED,
WHICH BASICALLY SUBTRACTS, I GUESS, WHAT COMES
IN -- SUBTRACT WHAT GOES OUT FROM WHAT COMES IN,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 215
YOU WOULD NEED ABOUT 12,000 HECTARES OF LAND TO
TAKE UP THAT AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS A YEAR. IS THAT
CORRECT?
A. THAT'S WHAT IT SEEMS TO SAY.
Q. NOW, THIS APPEARS TO BE A POSITION OF THE DUKE
WETLAND CENTER. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT
CALCULATION?
A. I HAVE NO COMMENT ON IT. I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT
THAT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY ACRES ARE PROPOSED IN THE
SWIM PLAN FOR THE STA'S?
A. NO, I DO NOT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF IT'S MORE THAN THE 31,000 OR LESS
THAN THE 31,000?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER IN THEIR
ANNUAL REPORT AND OTHER PUBLICATIONS BY DR.
RICHARDSON HAS SAID TO THE PUBLIC AT LARGE WOULD
BE REQUIRED TO TAKE UP THAT AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS?
A. NO, I DO NOT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF IT'S MORE THAN 31,000 OR LESS THAN
31,000?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. WHY WAS THIS PARAGRAPH, INCLUDING THE PART WE WERE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 216
JUST LOOKING AT, REMOVED FROM EXHIBIT 25, WHEN IT
WAS REPRINTED AS EXHIBIT 23?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHICH CAME FIRST, AND I CAN'T ANSWER
THE QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. WELL, WHAT DOES EXHIBIT 25 -- HOW DOES EXHIBIT 25
IDENTIFY ITSELF?
A. IT SAYS PRELIMINARY REPORT.
Q. AND HOW DOES EXHIBIT 23 IDENTIFY ITSELF?
A. IT HAS LEFT OUT PRELIMINARY REPORT.
Q. DOES THAT LEAD YOU TO ANY CONCLUSION?
A. THAT SUGGESTS TO ME THAT IT'S -- THAT THIS WOULD
FOLLOW THIS.
Q. THAT 25 CAME FIRST AND---
A. 25---
Q. ---AND 23 CAME SECOND.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND SO I'LL ASK AGAIN. DO YOU KNOW WHY THAT LAST
PARAGRAPH---
A. I HAVE NO---
Q. ---WAS REMOVED FROM 25?
A. ---I HAVE NO IDEA. THIS IS WHAT I READ, AND IT
WASN'T IN THERE.
Q. AND DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THAT PARTICULAR
PARAGRAPH IS SIGNIFICANT IN THE DISPUTE THAT'S --
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 217
THAT WE'RE HERE ABOUT?
A. IT SOUNDS LIKE IT IS APT TO BE.
Q. NOW, LOOKING AT -- YOU CAN LOOK AT EITHER ONE. I
THINK THIS IS THE -- AT PAGE TWO, UNDER DATA,
NUMBER THREE.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. SEE THAT? THE LAST -- SECOND PARAGRAPH, LAST
SENTENCE. IT BEGINS "DAILY RAINFALL."
A. OKAY, I BETTER LOOK AT THIS.
(THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
Q. (BY MR. REID) IS THAT IN BOTH VERSIONS?
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. NOW, .03 MILLIGRAMS PER LITER IS THE SAME
AS PARTS PER BILLION, ISN'T IT?
A. PARTS PER MILLION.
Q. PARTS PER MILLION?
A. PARTS PER MILLION, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. OKAY, AND THAT WOULD BE IN EFFECT 30 PARTS PER
BILLION THEN.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. IS THAT CORRECT?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT NUMBER?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE NUMBER WOULD BE.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 218
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF ANYONE CHECKED THAT NUMBER?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. OKAY. LOOK AT STUDY AREA---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---PARAGRAPH, THE SENTENCE BEGINNING,
"APPROXIMATELY 58% OF THE INFLOW" AND SO FORTH?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THOSE NUMBERS ARE ACCURATE?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q. NOW, UNDER PARAGRAPH THREE, "DATA" -- THE FIRST
SENTENCE, "DATA COLLECTED BY THE AUTHORS FROM
VARIOUS STATE SOURCES" AND SO FORTH; FIRST OF ALL,
WHO ARE THE AUTHORS?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. DO YOU READ THAT TO BE THE AUTHORS OF THIS
PARTICULAR PAPER?
A. YES.
Q. AND IT'S PLURAL?
A. YES.
Q. AND -- BUT YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO THAT MAKES
REFERENCE TO?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND WHEN YOU REVIEWED THIS FOR SONG, YOU DIDN'T
DISCUSS THAT WITH HIM?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 219
A. NO.
Q. YOU'RE NOT ONE OF THE AUTHORS, I TAKE IT.
A. I AM NOT ONE OF THE AUTHORS.
Q. AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE VARIOUS STATE SOURCES
MAKE -- THAT ARE MADE REFERENCE TO?
A. NO.
Q. WHAT DOES OLIGOTROPHIC MEAN?
A. OLIGOTROPHIC?
Q. YEAH.
A. NUTRIENT POOR.
Q. OKAY. IN A -- I WANT TO -- I MEANT TO ASK YOU
THIS YESTERDAY. IN A SYSTEM THAT IS HISTORICALLY
OLIGOTROPHIC, DO YOU BELIEVE EUTROPHICATION IS A
PROBLEM?
A. NOT NECESSARILY.
Q. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY NOT NECESSARILY?
A. A PROBLEM IMPLIES A VALUE JUDGMENT.
Q. OKAY, GIVE ME YOUR VALUE JUDGMENT ON THAT. THAT'S
WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR.
A. AS I SAID TO YOU YESTERDAY, MY VIEW ON
EUTROPHICATION AND, LIKEWISE, MY VIEW ON
OLIGOTROPHIC STATUS DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION.
Q. OKAY, AND DO YOU HAVE ANY GUIDELINES AS TO WHICH
SITUATION MAKES IT GOOD AND WHICH SITUATION MAKES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 220
IT BAD?
A. NOT IN A GENERAL SENSE. I'D APPROACH EACH PROBLEM
AS AN INDIVIDUAL.
Q. OKAY, AND I BELIEVE YOU TOLD ME YESTERDAY, YOU
DON'T HAVE ANY OPINIONS REGARDING THAT QUESTION AS
IT RELATES TO THE FLORIDA EVERGLADES.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. GO TO PAGE FIVE, PLEASE.
A. THIS IS FIVE ON THE---
Q. EXHIBIT 25---
A. ---EXHIBIT 25.
Q. ---IS THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS THE PAGES NUMBERED,
FOR SOME REASON.
A. OKAY.
Q. BEGINNING WITH, "WE BELIEVE..." UNDER DISCUSSION,
IT'S ABOUT THE FOURTH LINE DOWN.
A. OKAY.
Q. OKAY, "WE BELIEVE THAT WATER LEVEL IS IMPORTANT IN
CONTROLLING PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION, SINCE WATER
LEVEL REPRESENTS THE AMOUNT OF WATER IN THE
WETLAND, AND THIS IN TURN CONTROLS REDOX STATUS
AND P DYNAMICS." DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT SENTENCE?
A. I AGREE WITH THE FIRST PART, WATER LEVEL IS
IMPORTANT IN CONTROLLING P CONCENTRATION.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 221
Q. NOW---
A. I HAVE NO COMMENT ON THE SECOND PART.
Q. OKAY, NOW ARE YOU AWARE THAT ONE POSITION TAKEN BY
THE FARMING INTERESTS IN THIS CASE IS THAT THE
PROBLEM IN THE EVERGLADES IS RELATED TO WATER
LEVEL AS OPPOSED TO NUTRIENT INFUSION?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY, AND YOU'RE AWARE THAT THAT'S A DISPUTED
ISSUE IN THE CASE?
A. YES.
Q. A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE IN THE CASE?
A. OKAY.
Q. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND AT THE TIME OF -- AND THIS STATEMENT TAKES A
POSITION ON THAT, DOESN'T IT, ON THAT ISSUE?
A. IT INDICATES THAT WATER LEVEL IS IMPORTANT.
Q. RIGHT, AND THAT'S A JUDGMENT OR A VALUE, A
STATEMENT OF A POSITION BY THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER.
A. I CAN'T COMMENT ON THE POSITION OF THE DUKE
WETLAND CENTER. IT'S A STATEMENT BY THE AUTHORS
OF---
Q. EXHIBIT 25?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 222
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. AND ALL WE KNOW IS THAT IT WAS PUT OUT
UNDER THE NAME OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, BUT YOU
TOLD ME YOU BELIEVE THAT SONG WROTE IT, AND
PERHAPS CONSULTED WITH PROFESSOR RICHARDSON?
A. I BELIEVE I TOLD YOU THAT I FEEL THAT SONG WROTE
THIS.
Q. EXHIBIT 23---
A. 23, AND I FEEL THAT WAY BECAUSE THE STATISTICAL
WORK IS LIKELY HIS.
Q. AND YOU BELIEVE HE WAS CONSULTED -- HE CONSULTED
WITH DR. RICHARDSON?
A. I THINK THAT'S LIKELY.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU FEEL THAT SONG WAS FAR ENOUGH ALONG
IN HIS RESEARCH IN AUGUST OF 1992 TO MAKE
STATEMENTS SUCH AS THIS?
A. WE BE -- THAT STATEMENT THAT YOU JUST ASKED ME
ABOUT?
Q. THAT ONE PARTICULARLY.
A. I THINK HE WAS FAR ENOUGH ALONG TO MAKE THE FIRST
PART OF THE STATEMENT, THAT WATER LEVEL IS
IMPORTANT IN CONTROLLING P CONCENTRATION.
Q. THIS IS -- THIS IS, I THINK YOU TOLD ME, AN
OUTLINE OR A PROPOSAL THAT WAS GOING TO ULTIMATELY
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 223
LEAD TO WHAT HE WAS GOING TO PROPOSE TO HIS
DISSERTATION COMMITTEE?
A. THAT'S -- THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. DOES IT -- DO YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH A
STUDENT PUBLISHING DOCUMENTS WITH CONCLUSIONS A
YEAR BEFORE THEY EVEN TAKE THEIR HYPOTHESIS OR
THEIR DISSERTATION PROPOSAL TO THE COMMITTEE?
A. FIRST OF ALL, THIS ISN'T A PUBLICATION, IN THE
SENSE OF A PUBLICATION. IT'S A PAPER. IT'S A
DISCUSSION, AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH A STUDENT,
IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF A PROPOSAL LOOKING AT DATA
AND -- AND BEGINNING TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS.
Q. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PUBLICATION AND A
PAPER?
A. I THINK OF A PUBLICATION AS SOMETHING THAT IS
PUBLISHED, PRINTED IN A -- IN A -- EITHER IN A
REFEREED JOURNAL OR IN AN OTHERWISE FORMAL BOUND
BOOK OR REPORT OR DOCUMENT.
Q. WELL, IF SOMEBODY GETS HOLD OF THIS, AND SEES DUKE
WETLAND CENTER ON IT, AND DOESN'T SEE ANYTHING
ELSE, IS IT FAIR FOR THEIR -- THEM TO ASSUME THAT
THIS RESEARCH AND THE CONCLUSIONS MADE HAVE BEEN
SUBJECTED TO PEER REVIEW, REFEREED OR OTHERWISE
LOOKED AT BY SOMEBODY?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 224
A. I THINK IT'S -- YOU RAISE QUITE A GAMUT OF REVIEW.
I THINK THAT IT IS -- I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO
SAY ANYTHING, ACTUALLY. I DON'T -- I CERTAINLY
THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THIS HAS BEEN SUBJECT
TO PEER REVIEW.
Q. NO, MY QUESTION IS, IS IT FAIR FOR SOMEONE TO
ASSUME THAT IT HAS BEEN SUBJECT TO ANYTHING---
A. WELL, YOU SAID PEER REVIEW, AND I---
Q. WELL, LET'S -- LET ME LEAVE IT UP TO YOU TO DECIDE
WHICH REVIEW. MY QUESTION IS, IF SOMEBODY GETS
THIS PAPER AND SEES IT, NOT THE ONE THAT SAYS
PRELIMINARY DRAFT, BUT THE FINAL DRAFT, OR THE ONE
THAT'S EXHIBIT 23, AND SEES DUKE UNIVERSITY
WETLAND CENTER, IS IT FAIR FOR THEM TO ASSUME THAT
THIS HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO SOME METHOD OF REVIEW,
BEFORE IT WAS DISTRIBUTED?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. AND IS THAT TRUE THROUGHOUT DUKE
UNIVERSITY, OR IS THAT JUST TRUE IN THE WETLAND
CENTER?
A. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT OCCURS. I CAN TELL YOU THAT
I, AS I WRITE REPORTS AND MEMOS AND DISCUSSION
PAPERS, THEY MAY WELL TAKE THIS FORM; AND I'LL PUT
MY NAME ON IT; AND I WILL STAND BEHIND IT; BUT IT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 225
MAY NOT BE REVIEWED BY ANYONE.
Q. AND YOU BELIEVE THIS IS COMPARABLE TO A REPORT, A
MEMO OR A DISCUSSION PAPER?
A. I BELIEVE THIS IS COMPARABLE TO A MEMO OR A
DISCUSSION PAPER.
Q. AND ARE THOSE TYPICALLY DISTRIBUTED OUTSIDE OF THE
DEPARTMENT AT DUKE?
A. THERE'S NO TYPICAL ACTION.
Q. ARE THOSE EVER SENT TO OUTSIDERS?
A. I SUSPECT THAT THEY ARE.
Q. NOW, DOES IT SAY ANYWHERE IN THIS PAPER THAT THIS
IS -- THAT THIS IS A DISCUSSION PAPER BY A
GRADUATE STUDENT WHO'S BEEN IN THE PROGRAM A YEAR
AND A HALF, ABOUT SOME RESEARCH THAT HE HOPES TO
DO, WHEN HE GETS AROUND TO MAKING A PROPOSAL TO
HIS COMMITTEE A YEAR LATER.
A. I HAVEN'T READ IT, BUT I SUSPECT IT DOESN'T.
Q. YOU'D NEED TO KNOW THAT, WOULDN'T YOU, IN ORDER TO
EVALUATE THIS?
A. I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHO WROTE IT, IF I WAS EVALUATING
IT.
Q. AND WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER
WHICH HE WROTE IT?
A. IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 226
Q. NOW, WOULD IT BE HELPFUL TO KNOW THAT IN BETWEEN
THE PRELIMINARY DRAFT AND THE FINAL DRAFT, A
STATEMENT WHICH SUPPORTS THE SUGAR INDUSTRY WAS
LEFT IN, AND A STATEMENT THAT IS -- TAKES THE
OPPOSITE VIEW FROM THE SUGAR INDUSTRY'S POSITION
WAS REMOVED?
MR. RUSSELL: OBJECT TO FORM.
Q. (BY MR. REID) WOULD THAT BE HELPFUL TO KNOW?
MS. STINSON: I JOIN IN THAT.
A. I WOULDN'T CARE.
Q. AND WOULD IT ALSO BE HELPFUL TO KNOW THAT THE
PERSON WHO WROTE THIS, AND PURPORTEDLY MADE THOSE
CHANGES THAT I JUST MENTIONED, WAS BEING SUPPORTED
BY A FORTY THOUSAND DOLLAR ($40,000.00) GIFT FROM
THE SUGAR INDUSTRY?
MR. RUSSELL: OBJECT TO FORM.
MS. STINSON: OBJECT.
A. I WOULDN'T CARE.
Q. DO YOU THINK THAT SONG MADE THOSE DECISIONS
HIMSELF, TO MAKE THOSE CHANGES; OR DO YOU BELIEVE
THEY WERE MADE BY CURTIS RICHARDSON?
A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. THEY WEREN'T MADE BY YOU?
A. THEY WEREN'T MADE BY ME.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 227
Q. WOULD YOU HAVE OMITTED THAT LAST PARAGRAPH FROM
THE WORK, IN YOUR ROLE AS THE REVIEWING AND
GRADUATE ADVISOR?
A. AT THIS STAGE FOR SONG'S WORK, IT WASN'T
IMPORTANT, AND I WOULDN'T HAVE -- I PROBABLY
WOULDN'T HAVE COMMENTED ON, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
Q. BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU EVER SAW THAT
PARAGRAPH OR NOT, BECAUSE THE VERSION I HAVE
DOESN'T HAVE YOUR NOTES ON IT---
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. ---ON EXHIBIT 25. HAVE YOU EVER DONE ANY RESEARCH
AT ALL ON PHOSPHORUS IN FLORIDA FRESHWATER
WETLANDS?
A. NO.
Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY RESEARCH ON PHOSPHORUS IN ANY
WETLANDS, AS OPPOSED TO LAKES AND RIVERS?
A. NO.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN INSTALLING A
SAMPLING STATION, FOR THE PURPOSE OF MONITORING
DISCHARGE OR PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN WETLANDS?
A. NO.
Q. OR IN SURFACE WATER, GENERALLY.
A. INSTALL---
Q. INSTALLING SAMPLING.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 228
A. NOT INSTALLING; I'VE SAMPLED SURFACE WATERS, BUT
NOT INSTALLING STATIONS.
Q. BY SAMP -- HOW HAVE YOU DONE THAT?
A. SAMPLING DOESN'T HAVE TO INVOLVE SETTING UP A
FIXED STATION AND GOING BACK AND LOOKING AT IT.
YOU CAN ACTUALLY -- YOU GO OUT IN A BOAT, AND
GATHER A WATER SAMPLE, AND TAKE IT BACK TO THE
LAB; PROCESS IT. I'VE DONE THAT.
Q. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY UNIQUE ASPECTS OF PHOSPHORUS
DYNAMICS, AS THEY EXIST IN FLORIDA WETLAND
MARSHES -- OR FLORIDA FRESHWATER WETLANDS, I
SHOULD SAY -- THAT WOULD AFFECT THE CHEMICAL
ANALYSIS?
A. NO.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER ANALYZED ANY DATA SETS OR ANY DATA
BASE DEALING WITH PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN
FLORIDA FRESHWATER WETLANDS?
A. NO.
Q. AND BY THAT, I'M INCLUDING BOTH THE EVERGLADES
AGRICULTURAL AREA, AS WELL AS THE WATER
CONSERVATION AREAS AND THE PARK, AND SO FORTH.
A. I DID LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION ASSOCIATED
WITH WATER LEVEL, AND WORKED WITH PEEPLES, EARL &
BLANK.
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††††††††††††䉌䅎䬮ഌ
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 229
Q. AND WHAT -- WHEN WAS THAT? THAT WAS THE WORK ON
THE LAKE?
A. ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO.
Q. WAS THAT ON THE LAKE, OR WAS THAT RELATING TO THE
EVERGLADES?
A. THAT WAS RELATING TO AS YOU DEFINE, THE
EVERGLADES, SOUTH OF THE LAKE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DID YOU DO FOR PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK,
IN THAT REGARD?
A. I LOOKED AT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WATER LEVEL
NEAR SOME STRUCTURES AND PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION.
Q. DID YOU WRITE A REPORT?
A. NO.
Q. HOW DID YOU MAKE YOUR FINDINGS KNOWN?
A. I DID SOME STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AND GRAPHICS, AND
SENT THEM, AS I RECALL, TO RICK BURGESS.
Q. OKAY NOW, THIS WAS ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO.
A. YEAH.
Q. AND WHAT STRUCTURES WERE YOU DEALING WITH?
MR. RUSSELL: I INSTRUCT -- OTHER THAN
IN GENERAL TERMS, I INSTRUCT YOU, DR. RECKHOW
TO -- TO NOT ANSWER IT -- THE DETAILS OF THIS
WORK, SINCE IT REGARDS NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT
TESTIMONY IN ANOTHER PROCEEDING, NOT RELATED
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 230
TO THIS MATER.
MR. REID: JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, WHAT
PROCEEDING ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
MR. RUSSELL: THE OTHER FEDERAL LAWSUIT.
MR. REID: WHEN WERE YOU IN THE FEDERAL
LAWSUIT? YOU MEAN THIS WAS DONE AFTER YOU
INTERVENED?
MS. STINSON: WHETHER IT WAS DONE---
MR. RUSSELL: YEAH, THAT'S IRRELEVANT,
WHEN WE WERE ACTUALLY GRANTED INTERVENTION.
THE OBJECTION STANDS AND THE INSTRUCTION
STANDS.
Q. (BY MR. REID) YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT
THIS YESTERDAY, DID YOU? WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT
THIS.
A. NO, I DIDN'T, SPECIFICALLY, MENTION THIS
YESTERDAY.
Q. AND I THOUGHT I ASKED YOU TO TELL ME EVERY TIME
YOU HAD MET WITH ANY LAWYERS OR DONE ANY WORK
RELATING TO THE EVERGLADES, YESTERDAY. DO YOU
REMEMBER THAT, THOSE QUESTIONS?
A. I DO REMEMBER THAT, YEAH.
Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME ABOUT THIS YESTERDAY?
A. I DIDN'T REMEMBER UNTIL YOU, SPECIFICALLY, RAISED
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 231
THAT ISSUE.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, TELL ME WHERE YOU DID THIS WORK.
A. YOU MEAN WHAT---
Q. PHYSICALLY.
A. WHERE I -- WHERE I DID THE WORK?
Q. WHAT STRUCTURES WERE YOU DEALING WITH?
A. OH, OKAY. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT STRUCTURES,
TWO YEARS AGO.
Q. OKAY, AND DID YOU TAKE SAMPLES?
A. NO.
Q. WHAT DID YOU USE FOR YOUR DATA?
A. I USED DATA THAT WERE PROVIDED BY JOHN DAVIS.
Q. WHAT KIND OF DATA WAS IT?
A. AS I RECALL, IT WAS PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION AND
WATER LEVEL DATA.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO -- WHOSE DATA IT WAS?
A. I THINK IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE DISTRICT'S.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU -- WHAT WERE YOU, SPECIFICALLY,
ASKED TO DO?
A. TO LOOK AT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATION AND WATER LEVEL.
Q. AND WAS THIS FROM A STATISTICAL POINT OF VIEW?
A. YES.
Q. WHAT METHOD DID YOU USE TO GO ABOUT DOING THIS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 232
A. I USED REGRESSION ANALYSIS.
Q. OKAY. HOW MUCH TIME DID THIS PROJECT TAKE?
A. A COUPLE OF DAYS.
Q. AND HOW WERE YOU PAID?
A. AS A CONSULTANT.
Q. AN HOURLY BASIS OR---
A. YES.
Q. HOW MUCH AN HOUR?
A. PROBABLY A HUNDRED DOLLARS ($100.00) AN HOUR.
Q. WAS THERE A LETTER RETAINING YOU TO DO THIS WORK?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN.
Q. IS THERE ANY WAY THAT YOU COULD, BY THINKING ABOUT
OR RELATING IT TO SOMETHING ELSE, THAT YOU COULD
TELL ME A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY WHEN YOU ACTUALLY
DID THIS?
A. I THINK IT WAS EITHER SPRING OR SUMMER OF '91.
Q. OKAY. AND YOU DID THIS YOURSELF, AS OPPOSED TO
HAVING ANY GRADUATE STUDENTS WORK WITH YOU?
A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. AND WHEN YOU COMPLETED YOUR WORK, YOU CALLED
MR. BURGESS UP?
A. I SEEM TO REMEMBER THAT THAT WAS THE FORM OF THE
RESPONSE, YEAH; AND ALSO, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE,
GRAPHS AND STATISTICS.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 233
Q. OKAY. AND YOU SENT THOSE TO MR. BURGESS?
A. I THINK I DID. I PROBABLY SENT THEM TO JOHN
DAVIS, TOO.
Q. AND TO JOHN DAVIS. WHO IS JOHN DAVIS?
MR. RUSSELL: I'M -- I DON'T---
Q. (BY MR. REID) WHO'S JOHN DAVIS?
A. WE MENTIONED -- TALKED ABOUT THAT YESTERDAY. HE'S
A CONSULTANT.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER TALKED WITH BILL GREEN OR
ANYBODY FROM HIS OFFICE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR
WORK?
A. I DON'T THINK I DID.
Q. HAVE YOU TALKED TO ANYBODY ELSE ABOUT IT?
A. I MAY HAVE SPOKEN WITH BILL WALKER ABOUT IT, BUT I
DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM ABOUT IT?
A. I SAID I DON'T REMEMBER, SO I---
Q. OKAY. DID YOU EVER GIVE THIS WRITTEN MATERIAL TO
ANYBODY ELSE?
A. I DON'T THINK I DID.
Q. OKAY. AND AFTER YOU SENT IT IN, WHAT'S THE NEXT
THING YOU HEARD ABOUT IT?
MR. RUSSELL: I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT YOU
NOT TO ANSWER.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 234
Q. (BY MR. REID) OKAY. WHEN IS THE NEXT TIME
ANYBODY ASKED YOU ABOUT THIS?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER DISCUSSED IT SINCE THEN WITH
ANYBODY?
A. I MAY HAVE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH SONG WHEN YOU WERE TALKING
WITH HIM ABOUT HIS PROPOSAL?
A. NO.
Q. NOW THIS SEEMS TO BEAR IN SOME PART ON -- TO THE
SENTENCE THAT WE WERE FOCUSING ON EARLIER, ABOUT
WATER LEVEL AS IT RELATES TO PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATION, DOESN'T IT?
A. THAT'S RIGHT, THAT REMINDED ME THAT---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---OF THE WORK.
Q. WHEN YOU WERE REVIEWING EXHIBIT 23 AND YOU SAW
THAT SENTENCE IN THERE, DID YOU MENTION THIS TO
SONG?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOUR CONCLUSION THAT YOU DREW FROM THIS WORK
SUPPORT THE POSITION THAT HE TOOK, IN THE PAPER?
A. THE CONCLUSION FROM THAT WORK THAT YOU---
Q. YES.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 235
A. ---JUST DISCUSSED THAT I DIDN'T -- HAD NO
RELATIONSHIP. I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THE TWO IN ANY
CONNECTION.
Q. DOES IT, IN FACT, RELATE TO THE QUESTION THAT HE
WAS TALKING ABOUT IN THE PAPER, ABOUT THE WATER
LEVELS RELATING TO PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION?
A. THERE IS A GENERAL RELATIONSHIP IN WATER BODIES
THAT DEEPER WATER BODIES TEND TO HAVE LOWER
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS, AND THAT'S JUST GENERAL
ACROSS ALL SORTS OF WATER BODIES.
Q. IS THAT TRUE IN WETLANDS?
A. I DIDN'T SAY IT'S TRUE. IT TENDS TO BE THE CASE.
Q. DOES IT TEND TO BE THE CASE IN WETLANDS, AS
OPPOSED TO LAKES?
A. FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN OF DATA, IT APPEARS TO BE THE
CASE.
Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION, AS A RESULT OF THIS
STATISTICAL WORK THAT YOU DID?
MR. RUSSELL: I'M GOING TO OBJECT AND
INSTRUCT HIM NOT TO ANSWER.
MR. REID: BECAUSE HE WAS A
NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT IN THE FEDERAL
LITIGATION?
MR. RUSSELL: BECAUSE HE WAS A
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 236
NON-TESTIFYING EXPERT REGARDING THIS WORK
DONE ON BEHALF OF OUR CLIENT; IT HAS NO
BEARING, AS HE HAS STATED; NO BEARING ON THIS
PROCEEDING. IT CONTINUES TO BE ATTORNEY --
OH, EXCUSE ME -- WORK PRODUCT THAT IS
PROTECTED, THAT IS -- I MIGHT ASK DR.
RECKHOW. AM I CHARACTERIZING THAT CORRECT?
IS IT TRUE THAT NONE OF THIS WORK FORMS THE
BASIS FOR THE WORK IN THIS PROCEEDING?
WITNESS: THAT IS CORRECT; IT DOESN'T
RELATE.
MR. REID: WELL, LET ME JUST---
MR. RUSSELL: AND THE---
Q. (BY MR. REID) LET ME MAKE -- LET ME ASK YOU A
COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. WHEN YOU SAY IT DOESN'T
RELATE, YOU MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE LOOKING AT
THAT AS IT -- AND TALKING TO SONG ABOUT IT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. BUT IT DOES RELATE FACTUALLY. IT'S THE SAME
SUBJECT, ISN'T IT?
A. WELL, IT RELATES TO THE EXTENT THAT, AS I SAID
YESTERDAY IN A SIMILAR QUESTION, EVERYTHING
RELATES TO ALMOST EVERYTHING ELSE, IN SOME WAY.
Q. WELL, THIS RELATES MORE CLOSELY THAN THAT.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 237
A. PERHAPS.
Q. YOU WERE LOOKING AT WATER LEVEL AS IT RELATES TO
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION.
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE VARIABLES THAT SONG IS GOING
TO BE, SPECIFICALLY, LOOKING AT IN HIS
DISSERTATION WORK?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND IN FACT, HE'S MADE A STATEMENT ALREADY THAT
THERE'S A RELATIONSHIP?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. SO, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE THAT THEY RELATE DIRECTLY?
A. NO, ONLY -- NO MORE THAN I WOULD THAT SOMEONE
DOING A REGRESSION ANALYSIS OF CHILDHOOD EDUCATION
RELATES TO THIS, BECAUSE IT INVOLVES REGRESSION
ANALYSIS.
Q. WELL, LET'S JUST HYPOTHETICALLY SAY THAT YOU HAVE
DETERMINED IN YOUR STATISTICAL WORK THAT THERE WAS
NO CORRELATION BETWEEN WATER LEVEL AND PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATION, AND SONG MAKES THE STATEMENT THAT
HE MAKES IN HIS PROPOSAL; THEY WOULD RELATE
DIRECTLY, WOULDN'T THEY; IF YOU HAD DISCOVERED THE
OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE CLAIMS TO HAVE DISCOVERED?
A. I EXPECT THERE TO BE A -- MY EXPERIENCE IN TWENTY
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 238
YEARS IN WATER -- SURFACE WATER QUALITY STUDIES
HAS SHOWN ME THAT IN GENERAL THERE'S A TENDENCY
FOR DEPTH AND CONCENTRATION TO RELATE, AND SO I'M
NOT SURPRISED.
Q. THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION. MY QUESTION IS, THE WORK
THAT YOU DID IS REGARDING THE SAME SUBJECT MATTER,
AND IT WAS MOVING TOWARD THE SAME CONCLUSION AS
THE WORK THAT SONG IS GOING TO BE DOING?
MR. RUSSELL: HE ASKED AND ANSWERED A
SIMILAR QUESTION. I'LL INSTRUCT YOU NOT TO
ANSWER ANY MORE THAN THAT; THE SPECIFIC
DETAILS.
MR. REID: I'M ASKING HIM THE QUESTION
TO CLARIFY HIS SUBSEQUENT ANSWERS, AND
SPECIFICALLY, HIS QUESTION THAT REGRESSION
ANALYSIS REGARDING CHILDHOOD---
WITNESS: EDUCATION.
MR. REID: ---EDUCATION, RELATES TO
REGRESSION ANALYSIS CONCERNING WATER BECAUSE
THEY'RE BOTH REGRESSION ANALYSES. NOW, I'M
ASKING HIM ABOUT THAT SPECIFIC STATEMENT.
Q. (BY MR. REID) THE RESULT OF YOUR CHILDHOOD
EDUCATION ANALYSIS HAS NO BEARING ON THE RESULT OF
YOUR WATER QUALITY ANALYSIS, DOES IT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 239
A. THE -- NOT THE RESULT---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---THE INTERPRETATION OF METHODS.
Q. SURE, BUT THE RESULT -- IN OTHER WORDS, WHATEVER
THE RESULT IS REGARDING CHILDHOOD EDUCATION, WOULD
HAVE NO BEARING ON THE RESULT CONCERNING WATER
QUALITY.
A. THE RESULT, CORRECT.
Q. BUT IN THIS CASE, THE RESULT OF YOUR WORK, THE
WATER QUALITY -- THE STATISTICAL WORK YOU DID
CONCERNING PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION OF WATER LEVEL
RELATES DIRECTLY TO THE RESULT OF SONG'S WORK
INSOFAR AS HE DEALS WITH WATER DEPTH, WATER LEVEL
AS IT RELATES TO PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION.
A. IT DOES NOT.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. BECAUSE I HAVE A PERSPECTIVE THAT PRECEDES THE --
EITHER OF THESE PROJECTS CONCERNING THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DEPTH AND CONCENTRATION, AND
IT IS BASED ON THAT PERSPECTIVE, THAT I'M NOT
SURPRISED THAT THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP IN
WETLANDS.
Q. BUT THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION. MY QUESTION IS THAT
YOU'RE BOTH---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 240
A. I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. I SAID IT DIDN'T
RELATE.
Q. MY QUESTION IS THEY BOTH DEAL WITH THE SAME
SUBJECT MATTER.
A. THEY BOTH DEAL WITH PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION AND
DEPTH. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND THEY'RE BOTH LOOKING FOR THE SAME INFORMATION,
WHETHER THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP OR NOT.
A. THEY'RE BOTH LOOKING TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THERE
IS A RELATIONSHIP.
Q. AND IF -- IT WOULD BE INTERESTING FOR THE TRIER OF
FACT TO KNOW THAT YOU FOUND THERE WAS NO
RELATIONSHIP, HYPOTHETICALLY, AND THAT SONG FOUND
THERE WAS A RELATIONSHIP, IF THAT OCCURRED.
A. FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS A SCIENTIST, I -- FINDING A
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION AND
DEPTH AT THOSE STRUCTURES HAD NO EFFECT ON
STRENGTHENING MY BELIEF THAT THERE WAS A
RELATIONSHIP IN WETLANDS.
Q. BECAUSE YOU ALREADY HAVE A PRE -- YOU HAVE A---
A. YES.
Q. ---PRECONCEIVED IDEA THAT YOU KNOW THE ANSWER.
A. THAT'S -- I HAVE A SENSE FOR WHAT SHOULD OCCUR.
Q. BUT WE'RE TALKING NOW ABOUT WHETHER YOUR WORK IS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 241
GOING TO RELATE TO WHAT HE DOES, AND SO I'M GIVING
YOU A HYPOTHETICAL THAT---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---LET'S ASSUME THAT HE FINDS OUT SOMETHING
DIFFERENT THEN. LET'S REVERSE IT. YOU FIND THE
WATER QUALITY OF THE P CONCENTRATION AS IT RELATES
TO WATER LEVEL. LET'S ASSUME THAT IN HIS
DISSERTATION WORK HE WRITES A PAPER AND SAYS IT
DOESN'T RELATE. NOW, AT THAT POINT, YOUR WORK
DOES BEAR ON WHAT HE'S DOING.
A. NOT FROM THOSE STRUCTURES. MY A PRIORI BELIEF
ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DEPTH AND
CONCENTRATION WOULD MAKE ME SURPRISED IF SONG
DIDN'T FIND IT.
Q. WELL, IF YOU KNEW THE ANSWER, WHY DID YOU HAVE TO
DO THIS WORK FOR MR. BURGESS?
A. I DIDN'T KNOW THE ANSWER. I EXPECTED THAT THERE
WOULD BE A RELATIONSHIP.
Q. OKAY.
MR. REID: SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO LET
HIM ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT WHAT THE RESULT
OF HIS WORK WAS, STILL?
MR. RUSSELL: YES, BASED ON HIS
TESTIMONY THAT THE TWO DON'T RELATE. IN
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 242
OTHER WORDS -- IS THAT CORRECT, DR. RECKHOW?
IN OTHER WORDS, THE WORK---
WITNESS: DOING THAT WORK ON THE
STRUCTURES IS HAVING -- WILL HAVE NO EFFECT
ON WHAT SONG -- WHAT I DO WITH SONG.
MR. RUSSELL: AND YOU'RE NOT RELYING
UPON THAT?
WITNESS: I'M NOT RELYING ON THAT AT
ALL.
MR. REID: I THINK YOU'RE PLAYING GAMES
COUNSEL, BUT WE'LL GO AHEAD.
MR. RUSSELL: OKAY.
Q. (BY MR. REID) HAVE YOU -- HAVE YOU REVIEWED ANY
MATERIAL RELATING TO THE MODEL THAT TETRA TECH IS
WORKING ON?
A. NO.
Q. ASIDE FROM THIS CONVERSATION WITH MUNSON, I THINK,
WHERE HE ASSUMED YOU WERE GOING TO -- YOU WERE
DOING SOME MODELING WORK, HAVE YOU HAD ANY
DISCUSSIONS WITH ANYBODY ABOUT THAT MODEL?
A. ABOUT THE TETRA TECH MODEL?
Q. RIGHT.
A. NO.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING OR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 243
THAT YOUR GRADUATE STUDENT IS DOING IS PLANNED TO
BE INCORPORATED INTO THAT MODEL?
A. I DON'T KNOW. THE FACT THAT RON MUNSON CALLED AND
EXPRESSED INTEREST SUGGESTS THAT IT MIGHT BE.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE MODELING IS THE BEST APPROACH TO
ANSWER QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE ECOLOGY OF THE
EVERGLADES, AS OPPOSED TO EMPIRICAL FIELD
EXPERIMENTATION?
A. I THINK THAT THE -- ANSWERING THAT QUESTION WILL
INVOLVE GOOD EXPERIMENTATION, GOOD OBSERVATIONAL
DATA AND GOOD SCIENTIFIC JUDGMENT.
Q. WELL, CAN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?
A. I DON'T THINK -- I -- AS I -- COULD YOU REPHRASE
THE QUESTION SO I CAN GET IT EXACTLY?
Q. YEAH, I'M JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT IF YOU THINK
MODELING IS THE BEST APPROACH TO ANSWER THE
QUESTIONS THAT DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS FACING THE
EVERGLADES, AS OPPOSED TO EMPIRICAL, IN THE FIELD
TESTING?
MR. RUSSELL: I OBJECT TO THE FORM.
IT'S A RATHER BROAD QUESTION, THE PROBLEMS
FACING THE EVERGLADES.
Q. (BY MR. REID) THE EUTROPHICATION, SPECIFICALLY.
A. IT IS, BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT'S PHRASED, IT'S A
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 244
DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER. GIVEN THE WAY IT'S
PHRASED, THE ANSWER IS NO.
Q. WHY?
A. BECAUSE, AS I SAID A MOMENT AGO, I THINK IT'S A
MIX OF EXPERIMENTATION, OBSERVATIONAL WORK, AND
EXPERT JUDGMENT THAT WILL BE MOST EFFECTIVE IN
DEALING WITH THAT ISSUE.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHOSE DATA SET SONG IS GOING TO BE
USING IN GOING ABOUT HIS WORK?
A. I MENTIONED THAT YESTERDAY. HE WILL BE WORKING
WITH WCA-2A DATA AND THE NORTH AMERICAN DATA
SETS.
Q. I UNDERSTAND, BUT WHOSE WCA-2A DATA? THERE'S
SEVERAL DIFFERENT GROUPS.
A. THAT'S WHAT I UNDERSTAND AND THE DATA THAT'S HE'S
ABLE TO OBTAIN. CERTAINLY HE'LL HAVE DATA FROM
THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, AND OTHER DATA THAT HE'S
ABLE TO OBTAIN.
Q. HAVE YOU -- HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER DATA?
A. ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF WHAT SONG -- WHAT SONG HAS
LOOKED AT IN THIS REPORT.
MR. REID: OKAY. I'M GOING TO INTERRUPT
MY QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME, AND LET THE UNITED
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 245
STATES ASK SOME QUESTIONS, BECAUSE -- SINCE
WE'RE NOT GOING TO FINISH TODAY, I THINK IT
WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE FOR THEM, BECAUSE HE
HAS SOME QUESTIONS TO FOLLOW UP THINGS THAT
HAVE BEEN COVERED NOW, AND THAT LOGICALLY I
THINK IT MAKES BETTER SENSE. SO, WE'LL MOVE
AHEAD FOR THE NEXT HOUR AND HALF ON THAT.
(THEREUPON, A SHORT
BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
EXAMINATION BY MR. FITZGERALD:
Q. DR. RECKHOW, I'M TOM WATTS FITZGERALD REPRESENTING
THE UNITED STATES IN THIS ACTION, AND I DON'T
RECALL IF MR. REID TOLD YOU. HE PROBABLY DIDN'T,
JUST TO CONFUSE YOU; BUT AT THE OUTSET, I WOULD
SAY, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY QUESTIONS, BECAUSE
USUALLY I WON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M TRYING TO ASK
OR USE THE RIGHT TERMINOLOGY THAT MAKES SENSE TO
YOU, PLEASE JUST TELL ME AND WE'LL TRY AND SORT
OUT WHAT THE QUESTION WAS REALLY MEANT TO ASK, AND
WHETHER THERE IS AN ANSWER OR NOT. AND IF YOU
NEED TO TAKE A BREAK OR JUST WANT TO STRETCH YOUR
LEGS AT ANY POINT, IF YOU WOULD JUST TELL ME THAT,
I'D BE HAPPY TO. WHAT I SORT OF PLANNED TO DO,
SINCE WE CAN'T FINISH TODAY, OBVIOUSLY, IN ANY
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 246
EVENT, BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE FINAL OPINIONS,
THAT MAYBE YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO HAVE, I'M JUST
GOING TO TRY AND SORT OF FILL IN SOME POINTS
FOLLOWING ON MR. REID'S QUESTIONING THAT LEFT
QUESTIONS IN MY MIND, OR JUST THINGS I WAS
INTERESTED IN; AND THEN MAYBE LOOK AT A LITTLE
BACKGROUND MATERIAL COMING OUT OF THE
DOCUMENTATION THAT YOU PROVIDED. AND THEN WE'LL
JUST SEE HOW FAR THAT GETS US TODAY. WITH -- THIS
WILL BE SOMEWHAT UNFOCUSED, I GUESS, BECAUSE IT
DERIVES FROM THE NOTES AND THE ORDER IN WHICH I
WROTE THEM; BUT PICKING UP AT THE END OF MR. REID,
AND THEN WE'LL GO BACK TO YESTERDAY. YOUR ROLE AS
AN ADVISOR OR COUNSELOR TO A DISSERTATION STUDENT,
WHAT ACTUALLY DOES THAT ENTAIL? WHAT DO YOU HAVE
TO DO ON A DAILY OR WEEKLY BASIS TO ASSIST THAT
STUDENT IN PROGRESSING SATISFACTORILY TOWARDS THE
DOCTORATE?
A. MY ROLE IS, AS AN ADVISOR TO A Ph.D. STUDENT
INVOLVES, EARLY IN THE PROGRAM, ADVISING OR
DISCUSSING WITH OR CONSULTING WITH THE STUDENT ON
DIRECTION, THAT MANIFESTS ITSELF IN COURSES THAT
ARE SELECTED IN MAJOR AND MINOR CONCENTRATION
AREAS. MY ROLE THEN IS TO DISCUSS WITH THE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 247
STUDENTS -- THE STUDENT, THE NATURE OF THE Ph.D.
DISSERTATION; WHAT THE CONTRIBUTION IS GOING TO
BE; WHAT THE TOPICS WILL BE; THE MAKEUP OF THE
DISSERTATION COMMITTEE; AND THEN DURING THE
CONDUCT OF THE DISSERTATION, MY ROLE IS TO PROVIDE
ADVICE; CONSULTATION ON THE ACTUAL WORK, AND THEN
ULTIMATELY TO SERVE AS COMMITTEE CHAIR WHEN THAT
WORK IS PRESENTED FOR APPROVAL OF THE
DISSERTATION.
Q. IN PROVIDING SORT OF THE TECHNICAL OVERSIGHT AND
ADVICE TO THE WORK THAT'S BEING DONE, DOES THAT
REQUIRE YOU TO BRING TO BEAR ON THAT ALL OF YOUR
BACKGROUND AND EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE IN THE
FIELD THAT THE STUDENT IS PURSUING?
A. IT SHOULD.
Q. SO, I ASSUME, THEN, THERE'S REALLY NO WAY TO
SEGREGATE OUT; I MEAN, YOU'VE DESCRIBED ROUGHLY A
TWENTY YEAR CAREER IN SURFACE WATER QUALITY
ISSUES, SO YOU WOULD BRING ALL THAT EXPERIENCE TO
BEAR?
A. AS IT RELATES TO WHAT THE STUDENT'S DOING, YES.
Q. AND I ASSUMED FROM SOMETHING YOU SAID THAT THIS
GENERAL NOTION YOU HAVE, OR EXPECTATION THAT WATER
DEPTH HAS A RELATIONSHIP TO PHOSPHORUS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 248
CONCENTRATION, IS EXACTLY THAT SORT OF INFORMATION
OF A GENERALIZED BACKGROUND NATURE THAT YOU WOULD
RELY UPON IN EVALUATING; YOU KNOW, DOES THIS LOOK
RIGHT? I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IS THERE AN OBVIOUS
PROBLEM IN A LINE ANALYSIS OR DATA SET?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. WILL THERE BE ANY FIELDWORK OR FIELD SAMPLING DONE
IN SUPPORT OF QIAN SONG'S WORK?
A. I WON'T BE INVOLVED IN THAT FIELD COLLECTION, IF
THERE IS ANY, AND I WON'T BE INVOLVED IN GUIDING
IT. SONG HAS EXPRESSED AN INTEREST IN GAINING
FIELD EXPERIENCE AS PART OF THE OVERALL LEARNING
EXPERIENCE, AND WHETHER THAT OCCURS, I DON'T
KNOW.
Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, TO DATE, HAS HE BEEN INVOLVED
IN ANY OF THE FIELD DOSING STUDIES OR EXPERIMENTAL
WORK BEING CONDUCTED BY THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER IN
WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE HE'S BEEN TO FLORIDA FOR ANY OF
THAT WORK.
Q. GIVEN HIS POSITION OR ROLE AT THE WETLAND CENTER
AS A DISSERTATION CANDIDATE OR Ph.D. CANDIDATE,
DOES HE DO ANY LAB WORK OR DIRECT HANDS-ON
ANALYSIS OF FIELD SAMPLING?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 249
A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I THINK HIS ROLE IS JUST
CONFINED TO THAT SUPPORT FROM THE GIFT, DIRECTED
TOWARDS PURSUING THE DISSERTATION.
Q. APART FROM HIS APPARENT DESIRE TO GARNER THIS
FIELD EXPERIENCE, IS THERE -- OR HAS THERE BEEN
ANY DISCUSSION BETWEEN YOU AND SONG; OR YOU, SONG
AND DR. RICHARDSON ABOUT DESIGNING A SAMPLING
PROGRAM THAT WOULD DOVETAIL INTO THE TYPE OF
ANALYSIS HE'S INTERESTED IN CONDUCTING?
A. AS I RECALL, LAST SUMMER, WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT
ABOUT THE DESIRABILITY OF COLLECTING DATA ON
DESIGNS, ON SPECIFIC DESIGNS, BECAUSE OF
INADEQUACIES OF EXISTING DATA. BUT THAT DIDN'T GO
BEYOND THE DISCUSSION STAGE OF -- WOULDN'T IT BE
NICE IF WE HAD THE DATA.
Q. WHAT INADEQUACIES IN THE DATA WERE IDENTIFIED AT
THAT POINT THAT RAISED THIS ISSUE?
A. AS I RECALL, IT DEALT TO A LARGE DEGREE WITH THE
DESIRE TO HAVE MORE WATER COLUMN PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATION DATA.
Q. OUT OF 2A ONLY?
A. 2A.
Q. WAS DR. RICHARDSON ABLE TO PROVIDE ANY REASSURANCE
THAT MORE SUCH DATA WOULD BE FORTHCOMING?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 250
A. I DON'T THINK THAT HE DID.
Q. YOU MENTIONED A PROJECT YOU WORKED ON WITH
TETRA TECH IN THE ADIRONDACKS REGARDING
ACIDIFICATION OF LAKES. WAS THAT RELATED TO THE
NATIONAL ACID RAIN PROGRAM THAT WAS SIMILAR TO THE
PHOSPHORUS PROGRAM YOU DESCRIBED OF TWENTY YEARS
AGO?
A. NO. THIS ACTUALLY WAS A PROJECT FUNDED BY THE
ADIRONDACK LAKE SURVEY CORPORATION, A CONSORTIUM
OF POWER COMPANIES.
Q. AND WHAT WAS THE FOCUS OF THAT?
A. IT WAS TO PROVIDE A -- AN EXTREMELY DETAILED DATA
SET ON ACIDIFICATION RELATED CHEMISTRY IN A NUMBER
OF LAKES IN THE ADIRONDACKS, AND SUBSEQUENT
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS AND INFERENCE.
Q. IS THERE A RELATIONSHIP, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE,
BETWEEN pH LEVELS IN SURFACE WATER BODIES, AND
PHOSPHORUS BIOCHEMICAL PROCESSES?
A. I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY. AND THAT'S BECAUSE I'M NOT
A CHEMIST THAT I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY.
Q. IN DOING THE ANALYSIS THAT SONG IS GOING TO
ATTEMPT, RELATING PHOS -- OR GIVING AN EMPIRICAL
MODEL FOR PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE, DON'T RELATED
CHEMICAL PROCESSES HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED, IN ORDER
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 251
TO ASSURE NO SKEWNESS IN HIS INTERPRETATION?
A. I WILL DEPEND ON MEMBERS OF HIS COMMITTEE TO
PROVIDE THE SUBSTANTIVE GUIDANCE IN ECOLOGY AND
CHEMISTRY. CERTAINLY, WHAT HE COMES UP WITH HAS
TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH THOSE SCIENCES.
Q. IS IT FAIR TO SAY WHAT YOU'RE -- THE POINT LINE
IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS THAT YOU HAVE TO RELATE A
MODEL AND MODEL INTERPRETATION, WHICH CAN KIND OF
OCCUR IN A REMOTE OR IVORY TOWER SENSE, TO THE
REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENT?
A. YES, THAT'S ONE INTERPRETATION, YES.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN INSTANCES WHERE, YOU KNOW, A
PURE ACADEMIC MODEL COULD BE CONSTRUCTED THAT IN
APPLICATION TO THE PHYSICAL ENVIRONMENT WAS FOUND
TO, IN FACT, HAVE NO PREDICTIVE OR DECISION-MAKING
VALUE?
A. YES, WITH REGARDS TO LITTLE PREDICTIVE AND
DECISION-MAKING VALUE.
Q. YOU MENTIONED THE COMMITTEE AGAIN, AND THAT YOU
WOULD CHAIR IT IN YOUR ROLE AS THE FACULTY
ADVISOR. WAS I CORRECT IN UNDERSTANDING EARLIER
THAT THAT COMMITTEE HAS NOT BEEN FORMED AS YET?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. HAS THERE BEEN ANY DISCUSSION OF WHO THE NECESSARY
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 252
MEMBERS OF SUCH A COMMITTEE WOULD BE FOR THIS TYPE
OF DISSERTATION?
A. I THINK SONG AND I HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THAT A COUPLE
OF TIMES.
Q. HAVE YOU SPOKEN IN TERMS OF DISCIPLINES OR ACTUAL
NAMES?
A. NAMES.
Q. WHO HAVE YOU BEEN CONSIDERING FOR THAT PURPOSE?
A. CURT RICHARDSON, IN -- FROM THE SCHOOL OF THE
ENVIRONMENT, AND ROBERT WOLPERT FROM STATISTICS
AND DECISION SCIENCES.
Q. WHOSE SUGGESTION WAS THE INCLUSION OF DR.
RICHARDSON, YOURS OR---
A. IT PROBABLY WAS BOTH OF OURS, BECAUSE BOTH OF US
WOULD -- I CERTAINLY WANT HIM ON THE COMMITTEE,
AND I SUSPECT SONG DOES, TOO.
Q. SO, IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY THEN, THAT SONG'S
RELATIONSHIP WITH DR. RICHARDSON, BOTH NOW AND IN
THE FUTURE, IS GOING TO BE AN INVOLVED AND
EXTENSIVE ONE?
A. YES.
Q. YOU INDICATED THAT FOR SOME PERIOD IN THE PAST,
AND PERHAPS CURRENTLY AS WELL, SONG, AS IS NORMAL,
APPARENTLY, FOR Ph.D. CANDIDATES HERE, WORKED AS A
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 253
TEACHING ASSISTANT?
A. YES.
Q. FOR WHOM HAS HE BEEN A TEACHING ASSISTANT?
A. I -- HE'S A TEACHING ASSISTANT FOR ME, NOW, IN
DECISION AND RISK ANALYSIS. AS I RECALL, HE WAS A
TEACHING ASSISTANT FOR BRYANT BROWNE IN WATERSHED
HYDROLOGY IN THE SCHOOL OF THE ENVIRONMENT; AND I
BELIEVE, HE WAS A TEACHING ASSISTANT IN A
STATISTICS COURSE, BUT I'M NOT CERTAIN.
Q. NOW, YOU DESCRIBED SOME WORK YOU DID ON YOUR
CONTRACT WITH THE DISTRICT AS SUBCOMMITTEE -- OR
CHAIR OF A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE TOC---
A. YES.
Q. ---ON WATER QUALITY MONITORING, WAS IT?
A. YES.
Q. DID THAT SUBCOMMITTEE COMPLETE ITS WORK?
A. I DON'T KNOW. WE'VE -- I DON'T THINK SO, BUT
THAT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO DEFINE. THAT'S --
THE TOC WILL DETERMINE THAT.
Q. WELL, WHAT ACTUALLY DID YOU DO IN CONNECTION WITH
THAT?
A. THAT WORK BEGAN ABOUT A YEAR AGO. I PARTICIPATED
IN TOC MEETINGS, AND OFFERED COMMENTS -- WRITTEN
AND ORAL COMMENTS AT THE MEETINGS I ATTENDED
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 254
CONCERNING MONITORING. AND, OH, GEE, LAST MAY
OR JUNE, THE CHAIRS OF THE MONITORING COMMITTEE,
BILL WALKER AND MYSELF; AND THE CHAIRS OF THE
RESEARCH COMMITTEE, BOB WETZEL AND DAVID LANE,
WERE ASKED TO COME TO WEST PALM BEACH TO THE
DISTRICT AND BE LOCKED IN A ROOM AND NOT COME OUT
UNTIL WE HAD PRODUCED A RESEARCH AND MONITORING
PLAN.
Q. PRIOR TO YOUR INVOLVEMENT WITH DR. WALKER ON THIS
SUBCOMMITTEE, HAD YOU HAD ANY PERSONAL DEALINGS
WITH HIM IN THE PAST?
A. I'VE KNOWN BILL WALKER FOR ALMOST TWENTY YEARS.
Q. WERE YOU AT HARVARD TOGETHER?
A. YES.
Q. I ASSUME, THEN, YOU HAVE AS HIGH AN OPINION OF HIM
AS HE HAS OF YOU?
A. YES.
Q. WERE YOU PRESENT AT TOC OR TOC SUBCOMMITTEE
MEETINGS OTHER THAN THE SUBCOMMITTEE THAT YOU
CO-CHAIRED?
A. WELL, I WAS PRESENT AT PERHAPS FOUR OR FIVE TOC
MEETINGS, YEAH.
Q. WERE BRIEFINGS PROVIDED BY NON-TOC MEMBERS ON
SELECT SUBJECTS AT THE MEETINGS YOU ATTENDED?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 255
A. I THINK THEY MAY HAVE BEEN. I THINK THAT'S
PROBABLY THE CASE.
Q. DID YOU KEEP HANDOUTS FROM THE TOC MEETINGS THAT
YOU ATTENDED?
A. YEAH.
Q. SO, YOU'D BE ABLE TO TELL FROM THE HANDOUTS WHAT
MEETINGS YOU WERE AT, OR DO YOU PERHAPS HAVE A
CALENDAR THAT WOULD SHOW?
A. I HAVE A CALENDAR, WHICH WOULD INDICATE WHEN I
WENT TO MEETINGS, YEAH.
MR. FITZGERALD: DO YOU THINK YOU COULD
PROVIDE THAT TO US AS A SUPPLEMENT, THE
LISTING OF THE TOC MEETINGS THAT DR. RECKHOW
ATTENDED? I DON'T THINK TOC NECESSARILY KEPT
ANY KIND OF FORMAL LIST OF, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE
THAT WERE THERE WHO WERE NOT ACTIVELY
PARTICIPATING.
MS. STINSON: YEAH, I WOULD SUGGEST
WRITING ME A LETTER REQUESTING THAT, BUT
WE COULD DO THAT.
MR. FITZGERALD: I WILL ADD THAT, YEAH.
THAT'S NO BIG PROBLEM IF -- IT'S THAT, I
MEAN, YOU KNOW, IF THE STUFF IS STASHED AWAY
SOMEWHERE, MAYBE WE'LL FIND IT SOMEHOW.
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 256
WITNESS: OKAY. I'VE GOT THAT.
Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) DO YOU RECALL WHO MADE ANY OF
THOSE, SORT OF CAMEO APPEARANCES AND
PRESENTATIONS?
A. NOT PRECISELY. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT WE HAD
PRESENTATIONS EITHER FROM DISTRICT STAFF OR STATE
AGENCY STAFF.
Q. IN DESIGNING OR ASSISTING IN THE DESIGN OF A WATER
QUALITY MONITORING SYSTEM, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION
TO REVIEW THE EXISTING LOCATIONS OF MONITORING
STATIONS MAINTAINED BY THE VARIOUS AGENCIES
PARTICIPATING IN TOC?
A. NOT TO THIS POINT, WE HAVEN'T. OUR DESIGN --
OUR REPORT THAT WE PRODUCED AFTER THAT TWO-DAY
MEETING I MENTIONED A FEW MINUTES AGO, WAS MORE
GENERAL IN ITS GUIDANCE, AND WAS NOT SPECIFIC WITH
REGARDS TO LOCATIONS AND TIMES AND FREQUENCIES AND
SO ON.
Q. OKAY. DID -- AS PART OF CONSIDERING THAT, WAS
THERE NO CONSIDERATION OF THE EXISTING SYSTEM; HOW
IT WAS SET UP AND ITS PHILOSOPHY IN TERMS OF
TIME---
A. NO. ON THE CONTRARY, WE, BILL WALKER AND I FELT
VERY STRONGLY THAT THE -- THAT SUBSEQUENT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 257
MONITORING HAD TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT
ALREADY EXISTED, AND SO THAT WAS A -- THAT WAS A
STRONGLY STATED POINT.
Q. SO, IT WOULD BE A FAIR UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU
WOULD HAVE LOOKED AT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE TYPE OF
SAMPLING THAT HAD BEEN DONE, HISTORICALLY, BY THE
ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS IN CERTAIN PLACES?
A. NO. BECAUSE OUR -- AS I SAID A MOMENT AGO, OUR
GUIDANCE WAS GENERAL, AND IT WAS TO THE EFFECT OF
SAYING, BEFORE YOU DESIGN A PROGRAM, LOOK AT WHAT
YOU ALREADY HAVE, AND HAVE YOUR DESIGN FILL IN AS
NEEDED. WE WERE TO -- I SPOKE WITH TOM FONTAINE
WHEN I WAS DOWN AT THE DISTRICT IN EARLY FEBRUARY
FOR THE -- THE TRIP WAS FOR THE LAKE OKEECHOBEE
DECISION ANALYSIS, AND WE TENTATIVELY SCHEDULED A
MEETING INVOLVING TOM FONTAINE, BILL WALKER AND
MYSELF AT THE DISTRICT FOR MID-FEBRUARY. AND I
HAD TO CANCEL BECAUSE OF A SCHEDULE CONFLICT, BUT
THAT MEETING WAS TO BEGIN THE WORK YOU JUST
IDENTIFIED.
Q. WERE YOU AWARE, AT THE TIME YOU WERE DOING THIS
WORK, THAT THE DISTRICT, FOR EXAMPLE, HAD BEEN
COLLECTING WATER QUALITY DATA, AT ITS MAJOR
STRUCTURES, DISCHARGING FROM THE EVERGLADES
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 258
AGRICULTURAL AREA, INTO THE EVERGLADES PROTECTION
AREA, AS DEFINED IN THE SWIM PLAN?
A. I WAS AWARE THAT THE DISTRICT HAD AN EXTENSIVE
WATER QUALITY MONITORING PROGRAM, BUT HADN'T
LOOKED AT THE SPECIFICS.
Q. THE DATA SET THAT YOU DESCRIBED, PROVIDED TO YOU
BY DR. JOHN DAVIS, FROM ESP, FOR THE WORK YOU DID
TWO YEARS AGO, THAT WAS DISTRICT DATA FROM THAT
MONITORING SYSTEM?
A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT WAS.
Q. WERE YOU PROVIDED BY DR. DAVIS A DATA SET FOR LAKE
OKEECHOBEE AS PART OF THAT?
A. NOT AS PART OF THAT PROJECT. AS PART OF THE WORK
THAT I MENTIONED YESTERDAY---
Q. THE EARLIER?
A. ---ON LAKE -- THE EARLIER WORK ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE,
WE WERE.
Q. SO, YOU WERE AWARE FROM THE EARLIER WORK THAT
WATER QUALITY DATA WAS DEVELOPED AND MAINTAINED
FOR THE DISCHARGE POINTS FROM LAKE OKEECHOBEE?
A. I WAS AWARE THAT THERE WAS A SUBSTANTIAL INPUT,
OUTPUT, AND IN-LAKE WATER QUALITY DATA SET FOR
OKEECHOBEE, YES.
Q. WERE YOU AWARE OF THE DATA SET FOR INFLOWS TO
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 259
EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK, FROM THE S-12 AND S-333
STRUCTURES?
A. I CAN'T COMMENT WITH REGARDS TO SPECIFIC
STRUCTURES, BUT AS I MENTIONED, I WAS AWARE THERE
WAS AN EXTENSIVE DISTRICT WATER QUALITY DATA SET
IN THE EVERGLADES.
Q. IN YOUR WORK WITH THE TOC SUBCOMMITTEE, WITH THEIR
REVIEW OF THE PORTIONS OF THE SWIM PLAN YOU
REVIEWED, WERE YOU AWARE THAT THE FOUR MAJOR
DISCHARGE STRUCTURES FROM THE EAA, FROM THE
AGRICULTURAL AREA, S-5A, S-6, S-7 AND S-8, BEING
THEIR NUMBERS, WERE ALSO SITES OF DATA COLLECTION
FOR -- BY THE DISTRICT?
A. AS I SAID BEFORE, I WAS AWARE OF THE EXTENSIVE
DATA SET. MY REVIEW DIDN'T INVOLVE SPECIFIC --
LOOK AT SPECIFIC WATER QUALITY DATA FOR THE
MONITORING TO THIS POINT IN TIME.
Q. TO DO A REGRESSION ANALYSIS ON DATA, YOU WOULD
NEED A FAIRLY SIZEABLE DATA SET FROM THE SPECIFIC
POINT, TO HAVE ANY VALIDITY, WOULD YOU NOT?
A. TO DO A REGRESSION ANALYSIS ON DATA, YOU NEED A
DATA SET WITH A RESPONSE VARIABLE AND A PREDICTOR
VARIABLE, AT A MINIMUM.
Q. IN THE WORK YOU DID TWO YEARS AGO, WHAT PREDICTOR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 260
VARIABLE DID YOU USE?
MR. RUSSELL: I'M GOING TO TAKE A
BREAK FOR JUST A MINUTE.
(THEREUPON, MR. RUSSELL
LEAVES CONFERENCE ROOM.)
A. I WAS PREDICTING PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION.
Q. FROM WATER DEPTH?
A. FROM WATER DEPTH.
Q. SO, THAT WOULD BE THE RESPONSE VARIABLE?
A. THE RESPONSE VARIABLE WAS THE PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATION, AND THE PREDICTOR VARIABLE WAS
WATER DEPTH.
Q. WATER DEPTH?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. OKAY. YOU STATED EARLIER THAT YOU EXPECTED TO SEE
A RELATIONSHIP, BASED ON ALL YOUR PRIOR EXPERIENCE
AND KNOWLEDGE IN THE AREA WHICH I PRESUME INCLUDES
THE PHOSPHORUS STUDY FROM TWENTY YEARS BACK, THAT
DATA COLLECTION AND OTHER THINGS?
A. YES.
Q. DID YOU FIND -- WELL, AS I UNDERSTOOD YOUR
TESTIMONY YESTERDAY, YOUR PRIOR WORK IN THIS AREA,
PRIMARILY, WAS RELATED TO STREAMS AND FRESHWATER
LAKES?
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DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 261
A. LAKES, PRIMARILY.
Q. LAKES, OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER HAD OCCASION TO
EXAMINE, SPECIFICALLY, THE DIFFERENCES IN
PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE DYNAMICS BETWEEN LAKE SYSTEMS
AND WETLAND SYSTEMS?
A. NO, THAT HASN'T BEEN A PART OF RESEARCH THAT I'VE
CONDUCTED.
Q. AT ONE POINT, AS YOU MAY BE AWARE, DR. RICHARDSON
PRESENTED TO THE -- ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE SAGE
COMMITTEE?
A. I'M JUST FAMILIAR WITH ITS EXISTENCE, YEAH.
Q. AT ONE POINT, AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE AWARE,
DR. RICHARDSON MADE A PRESENTATION TO SAGE IN
WHICH HE PRESENTED SOME STATISTICAL ANALYSIS
SUGGESTING CERTAIN SETTLING RATES IN WCA-2A, BASED
ON TRANSECT DATA THAT HE HAD COLLECTED; BUT IN
DEFENDING THE PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE RATE OR SETTLING
RATE, IDENTIFIED IN HIS DOCUMENTATION, HE STATED
THAT HE WAS NOT REALLY A STATISTICIAN AND HE
HADN'T REALLY WORKED UP THE NUMBERS AND KIND OF --
WELL, LET'S JUST SAY THAT IT DIDN'T COME TO
CLOSURE ON THAT DAY. HAD YOU HAD ANY INVOLVEMENT
OR REVIEW CAPACITY ON THAT PARTICULAR SETTLING
RATE ANALYSIS?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 262
Q. NO.
A. DO YOU KNOW WHO DID IT?
A. NO.
Q. WOULD YOU KNOW, NECESSARILY, IF SONG, FOR EXAMPLE,
HAD CONTRIBUTED TO THAT?
A. I PROBABLY WOULD KNOW.
Q. GOING BACK TO THE BUSINESS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN DEPTH AND CONCENTRATIONS, DID YOU FIND,
BASED ON ALL YOUR WORK AND EXPERIENCE, THAT THE
RELATIONSHIP WAS AS PRONOUNCED IN WETLANDS DATA
SETS AVAILABLE TO YOU, THAT YOU ANALYZED, AS YOU
HAD SEEN IN LAKE COMMUNITIES?
A. IT DID NOT -- IT DIDN'T -- THE STUDIES -- THE
STUDY IN THE WETLANDS AND AT THOSE STRUCTURES,
AND THE WORK I'VE DONE IN THE PAST, WERE OF A
DIFFERENT ENOUGH NATURE, THAT THEY DIDN'T
IMMEDIATELY RELATE TO EACH OTHER, OTHER THAN TO
SAY THAT DEEPER WATER BODIES TEND TO HAVE LOWER
CONCENTRATIONS. THE EXACT STATISTICAL
RELATIONSHIPS WERE LOOKED AT IN A DIFFERENT ENOUGH
WAY THAT IT WASN'T A -- THERE WASN'T THE IMMEDIATE
COMPARISON AND THERE WAS NO REASON TO COMPARE, SO
I DIDN'T LOOK AT THAT ISSUE.
Q. DID YOU EVER CONSIDER WHETHER THAT'S SIMPLY A
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 263
FUNCTION OF THE QUALITY OF THE -- AND SOURCE OF
INFLOWS THAT WOULD ESTABLISH THE GREATER DEPTHS OR
RESIDENCE TIMES?
A. I EXPECTED IT, AGAIN, BECAUSE OF EXPERIENCE. I
ALSO EXPECTED IT BECAUSE IT'S A GENERAL -- IT'S
A GENERAL DESIGN CRITERION FOR SETTLING BASINS;
AND SO, I JUST EXPECT THAT DEEPER WATER BODIES
WILL HAVE LESSER CONCENTRATION, SO I WASN'T
SURPRISED.
Q. HAVE YOU HAD ANY INVOLVEMENT IN THE DESIGN OR
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF SETTLING PONDS OR BASINS
FOR EITHER NUTRIENT OR OTHER MATERIAL REMOVAL FROM
WASTEWATER TREATMENT OR THE RELATED FIELDS?
A. NOT SINCE A CLASS PROJECT IN GRADUATE SCHOOL.
Q. WHAT PROJECT WAS THAT?
A. THIS WAS JUST PART OF A CLASS ASSIGNMENT TWENTY
YEARS AGO. I LOOKED AT SETTLING BASINS AND DESIGN
FOR TRAPPING CONTAMINATES.
Q. IN BRINGING ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE TO
BEAR ON ADVISING AND REVIEWING THE DISSERTATION
EFFORTS AND THE PRELIMINARY EFFORTS BY MR. SONG,
WON'T YOU NECESSARILY BE APPLYING, AS WELL, THE
KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING AND CONCLUSIONS YOU DREW
FROM THE WORK YOU DID FOR PEEPLES, EARL TWO YEARS
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 264
AGO ON THE DISCHARGE STRUCTURES IN THE EAA?
A. I -- AS I HAD MENTIONED BEFORE THE BREAK, I DON'T
SEE HOW THAT IS GOING TO RELATE AT ALL, OTHER THAN
IN THE GENERAL SENSE OF DEPTH; CONCENTRATION
RELATIONSHIPS.
Q. DR. RICHARDSON, DURING HIS DEPOSITION, SAID YOU
HAD BEEN RETAINED BY THE CO-OP IN 1992. WOULD
THAT STATEMENT BY DR. RICHARDSON SQUARE WITH YOUR
RECOLLECTION OR ASSIST YOU AT ALL IN KIND OF
NARROWING DOWN WHEN THAT OCCURRED OR---
MS. STINSON: OBJECTION.
MR. FITZGERALD: YOU CAN STILL
ANSWER IT.
WITNESS: OH, OKAY.
A. THE CO-OP IS -- AS I UNDERSTAND -- I DON'T THINK
I'VE EVER BEEN RETAINED BY THE CO-OP.
Q. YOU UNDERSTAND THE CO-OP IS REPRESENTED BY BILL
GREEN, AND---
A. YES.
Q. ---RETAINS CURTIS POLLMAN, THE PEOPLE TO WHOM YOU
WERE SENDING THE REPORTS?
A. YEAH, I DON'T -- YEAH, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE TO
BEN, I -- MY WORK WITH BILL GREEN INVOLVES THE
GIFTS TO THE WETLAND CENTER; AND AS SONG'S
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 265
ADVISOR. I'M NOT A CONSULTANT TO THEM.
Q. SO, TO THE EXTENT DR. RICHARDSON SAID THAT, THEN,
IT WAS -- IT WOULD BE IN YOUR VIEW THEN, JUST A
LOOSE USE OF THE TERM RETAINED?
A. I THINK THAT'S THE CASE, YEAH.
Q. DOES THE WETLAND CENTER, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAVE
ANY MECHANISM IN PLACE FOR DISTRIBUTING SUCH
PRELIMINARY REPORTS OR SIMPLY REPORTS AS EXHIBITS
23 AND 25 TO MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC, WHO
HAVE NO CONTRACTUAL OR ACADEMIC RELATIONSHIP WITH
THE CENTER?
A. I CAN'T---
MR. RUSSELL: OBJECTION TO FORM.
A. ---I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE CENTER. I DON'T THINK --
MY HUNCH IS THEY DON'T HAVE A GENERAL APPROACH TO
THIS. IT WOULD DEPEND ON EACH INDIVIDUAL
DOCUMENT.
Q. DID YOU, TO YOUR RECOLLECTION, EVER PROVIDE EITHER
23 OR 25 TO MR. GREEN OR TO CURTIS POLLMAN?
A. GEE, I DON'T THINK THAT I DID.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOUR STUDENT, SONG, DID SO?
A. HE MAY HAVE.
Q. BUT YOU DON'T---
A. I DON'T---
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 266
Q. ---YOU DON'T KNOW?
A. NO, HUH-UH (NO).
Q. IN YOUR WORK BACK ON LAKE OKEECHOBEE, SOMETIME
BACK, DID YOU DO A BAYESIAN ANALYSIS?
MR. RUSSELL: I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT
HIM NOT TO ANSWER IT, UNLESS IT'S -- YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT NOW -- ARE YOU BACK ON THE WORK
THAT WAS DONE ON BEHALF OF---
MR. FITZGERALD: NO. I SAID LAKE
OKEECHOBEE.
WITNESS: THIS IS FOR---
MR. FITZGERALD: THIS IS THE OTHER LAKE.
WITNESS: ---LANDIS AND PARSONS, IS
THAT---
MR. RUSSELL: OKAY, YEAH, THAT'S --
YEAH, YEAH, THAT'S ALSO ON BEHALF OF MY
CLIENT. AND I'M GOING TO INSTRUCT YOU NOT
TO ANSWER ABOUT THE SPECIFICS OF THAT. YOU
CAN TALK ABOUT THE GENERALITIES OF WHAT THE
WORK WAS. IF IT'S---
MR. FITZGERALD: COUNSEL, I'M ASKING
ONLY GENERALITIES.
WITNESS: YEAH.
MR. RUSSELL: YEAH, AND SINCE I'M NOT
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 267
SURE WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED AS A -- IF
IT'S A GENERAL QUESTION ABOUT IT, THAT'S
FINE.
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU USE THE SEASONAL KENDALL TEST?
A. NO.
Q. CAN YOU DISTINGUISH FOR ME THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE SEASONAL KENDALL AND THE KENDALL TAU?
A. YEAH. THE KENDALL TAU IS A -- IS A NON-PARAMETRIC
MEASURE OF ASSOCIATION OR CORRELATION THAT WAS
PROPOSED BY KENDALL, A STATISTICIAN. A SEASONAL
KENDALL IS AN ADOPTION OF THAT STATISTIC, FOR THE
PURPOSE OF LOOKING AT -- TESTING FOR TRENDS IN
SERIES DATA WHEN THERE IS A SEASONAL PATTERN IN
THE DATA.
Q. WHAT DOES SEASONAL PATTERN MEAN?
A. SEASONAL PATTERN REFERS TO THE FACT THAT THERE --
THAT IN -- IF I CAN BE SPECIFIC WITH REGARDS TO
CONCENTRATION, CONCENTRATION IS AFFECTED, OR
VARIES IN A SYSTEMATIC WAY, SEASON BY SEASON.
Q. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SEASON IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF
YOU KNOW, SUMMER, FALL, WINTER, OR ARE YOU TALKING
MONTHLY, OR?
A. SEASON CAN BE -- SEASON CAN BE DEFINED HOWEVER YOU
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 268
WOULD LIKE TO, WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE
STATISTICAL PROGRAM.
Q. SO, YOU VIEW IT AS ANOTHER PARAMETER THAT'S
SUBJECT TO DEFINITION?
A. WELL, YES, IT COULD BE DEFINED AS THE TRADITIONAL
FALL, SPRING, OR MONTHLY, OR WEEKLY.
Q. WHAT IS YOUR STUDENT SONG'S BACKGROUND, PRIOR TO
BEING ACCEPTED INTO THE PROGRAM BY YOU, UNDER YOUR
WING. I ASSUME YOU HAVE REASON TO INQUIRE INTO
THAT, AND BECOME FAMILIAR WITH HIM.
A. SONG -- SONG'S BACKGROUND -- GEE, AND I HAVE TO
ADMIT, I, WITH EIGHT Ph.D. STUDENTS, I CAN'T BE
PRECISE ON EACH ONE'S BACKGROUND. I'M FAIRLY
CERTAIN SONG'S BACKGROUND IS IN ENGINEERING IN
THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA. WHAT WAS
NOTEWORTHY IN HIS BACKGROUND TO ME IS HE HAD A
YEAR AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY, INVOLVED WITH WATER
QUALITY MODELING.
Q. WHO WAS HE WORKING WITH AT TUFTS?
A. HE WAS WORKING WITH DR. LIN BROWN.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT TYPE OF WQ MODELING THEY WERE
DOING?
A. LIN WAS INVOLVED AT THE TIME WITH THE QUAL2E, A
SURFACE WATER QUALITY MODEL FOR STREAMS, AND HE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 269
WAS INVOLVED IN UNCERTAINTY ANALYSIS WITH THAT
MODEL.
Q. QUAL2E, IS THAT THE EPA PROGRAM?
A. YES. YES.
Q. WERE THEY MODIFYING IT FOR SOME REASON?
A. LIN WAS INVOLVED -- WAS HELPING EPA ADD AN
UNCERTAINTY ANALYSIS COMPONENT TO IT.
Q. WHAT'S A BAYESIAN ANALYSIS---
A. A BAYESIAN ANALYSIS---
Q. ---OTHER THAN AN ANALYSIS NAMED AFTER DR. BAYES.
A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT. IT INVOLVES USE OF BAYES'
THEOREM.
Q. WHICH, CAN YOU PUT INTO LAYMEN'S TERM FOR US?
A. YES. A BAYES' THEOREM IS A WAY OF COMBINING
INFORMATION THAT EXPRESS -- IS EXPRESSED
PROBABLISTICALLY; INFORMATION THAT MIGHT BE
OBTAINED FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES; POOLING
INFORMATION, IN EFFECT.
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE A MORE APPROPRIATE ANALYSIS
METHOD, IF YOUR DATA SET WAS SCATTERED OR
INCOMPLETE, THAN SOMETHING LIKE A KENDALL TEST?
A. THE TWO ARE NOT COMPARABLE IN THE SENSE -- IN THE
SENSES THAT YOUR QUESTION DESCRIBES. IN OTHER
WORDS, I WOULDN'T THINK OF -- FOR ANY PARTICULAR
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 270
ANALYSIS, CHOOSING A KENDALL TEST OR A BAYESIAN
ANALYSIS.
Q. OKAY. HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHAT STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS METHOD TO USE IN CONDUCTING A REVIEW OR
ANALYSIS OF A PARTICULAR DATA SET? WHAT TYPE OF
FACTORS DO YOU BRING TO BEAR ON THAT?
A. I LOOK AT THE NATURE OF THE QUESTION, WHAT'S BEING
ASKED, AND THE NATURE OF THE INFORMATION BASE.
Q. A QUESTION I DIDN'T FOLLOW UP BEFORE---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---WHILE HE WAS AT TUFTS, WAS SONG GETTING A
MASTER'S?
A. HE WAS NOT. HE WAS JUST THERE FOR A YEAR, IN AN
EXCHANGE SORT OF PROGRAM, AND THEN HE WENT BACK TO
WORK WITH AN AGENCY IN THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC.
Q. OKAY. YOU MENTIONED SOME WORK YOU DID FOR
CH2M-HILL, OR DID SOME WORK WITH THEM ON A NUMBER
OF OCCASIONS. SO, WHAT WAS THE AREA OF INQUIRY IN
THAT ONE?
A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT I WORKED WITH THEM ONLY
ONCE, AND THAT WAS TO ASSIST THEM WITH SOME LAKE
WATER QUALITY MODELING AND STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ON
LAKE McGORY IN ST. PETERSBURG.
Q. AND THAT'S A LAKE THAT'S SUBJECTED TO WASTEWATER
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 271
RUNOFF FROM URBAN AREAS?
A. STORMWATER RUNOFF, YEAH.
Q. STORMWATER?
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. WHAT TYPE OF STATISTICAL ANALYSIS DID YOU
SUBJECT THE DATA SETS THERE TO?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER, PRECISELY, BUT IT SEEMED TO ME
I HELPED THEM IN IDENTIFYING STATISTICS FOR
SUMMARIZING DATA SETS AND ASSISTED THEM WITH AN
APPLICATION OF MODELS.
Q. IN YOUR PRELIMINARY REVIEW WITH SONG OF THE DATA
SETS THAT HE WILL BE ANALYZING, HAVE YOU MADE A
JUDGMENT AS TO WHAT WOULD BE THE MOST APPROPRIATE
STATISTICAL METHOD TO APPLY?
A. YEAH. AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, IT'S OUR HOPE TO
USE A NON-PARAMETRIC REGRESSION APPROACH; LOOKING
AT THE DATA SETS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY
NON-PARAMETRIC?
A. IN THAT PARTICULAR USE OF THE WORD, I'M REFERRING
TO METHODS THAT DO NOT REQUIRE AN ASSUMPTION OF AN
UNDERLYING PROBABILITY MODEL, LIKE A NORMAL
DISTRIBUTION.
Q. DO YOU HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE, IN FACT,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 272
IS NOT A NORMAL DISTRIBUTION OF THE DATA IN WATER
DEPTH AND CONCENTRATION DATA SETS SUCH AS WILL BE
EMPLOYED BY SONG?
A. I HAVE -- I BELIEVE THAT THE FEWER ASSUMPTIONS
WE IMPOSE ON THE DATA, THE MORE WE CAN ALLOW THE
DATA TO HELP US IDENTIFY RELATIONSHIPS AND
PATTERNS.
Q. IF YOU WERE ADVISED BY A FIELD EXPERT THAT, IN
FACT, THE DATA SETS HAD DEMONSTRATED A NORMAL
DISTRIBUTION OR ANY DATA SET REPRESENTED, IN FACT,
EMBODIES A NORMAL DISTRIBUTION, WOULD THAT BE A
FACTOR THAT WOULD LEAD YOU TO SELECTION OF A
DIFFERENT STATISTICAL METHOD?
A. IF THE NATURE OF THE ANALYSIS WAS SUCH THAT WE
HAD OPTIONS WITH EITHER MAKING AN ASSUMPTION OF
NORMALITY OR NOT, AND IF I BELIEVED THE FIELD
PERSON, YES.
Q. SO, YOU TRY AND FACTOR INTO YOUR SELECTION BOTH
REAL WORLD KNOWLEDGE, AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE
WEAKNESS OR AREAS OF VARIANCE BETWEEN THE
STATISTICAL METHODS AVAILABLE TO YOU TO APPLY?
A. YES, YES.
Q. EACH OF THE METHODS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, THE
BAYESIAN OR THE SEASONAL KENDALL, THE KENDALL TAU
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 273
OR EVEN THE REGRESSION -- NON-PARAMETRIC
REGRESSION, YOU WERE MENTIONING MORE RECENTLY,
EACH OF THOSE HAS DIFFERENT STRENGTHS; DIFFERENT
WEAKNESSES?
A. YES, UH-HUH (YES).
Q. IN A REGRESSION ANALYSIS, WHAT IS THE R SQUARED
TERM, OR R-2 TERM GENERALLY MEANT TO CONNOTE?
A. IT INDICATES THE PERCENT OF THE VARIANCE IN THE
RESPONSE VARIABLE THAT IS EXPLAINED BY THE
PREDICTIVE RELATIONSHIP.
Q. IS MY NON-TECHNICAL UNDERSTANDING OF THAT, THAT
IT, BASICALLY, TELLS YOU---
A. SOME MEASURE OF HOW GOOD THE MODEL IS.
Q. OKAY. HOW WELL THE MODEL FITS YOUR DATA FIELD?
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. AND, SO, IT REALLY TELLS YOU HOW CLOSE
YOUR MODEL IS TO ACCOUNTING FOR ALL YOUR DATA
SET?
A. IT'S ONE INDICATOR OF THAT. AS YOU SAID, THERE
ARE STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES OF ANY STATISTIC.
Q. AND IN A REGRESSION MODEL, THE HIGHEST THAT COULD
BE WOULD BE 1.0---
A. THAT'S---
Q. ---WHICH WOULD BE A PERFECT FIT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 274
A. ---CORRECT.
Q. IN THE FIELD OF SURFACE WATER QUALITY MODELING, IN
YOUR EXPERIENCE OF TWENTY YEARS, THIS IS WHAT
YOU'VE BEEN DOING; YOU'RE DEALING WITH A SCIENCE;
IT'S NOT LIKE THE MEDICAL SCIENCE WHERE THEY LOOK
FOR AN R-2 IN THE .95 RANGE BEFORE THEY'RE HAPPY.
WHAT, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, IS A REASONABLY STRONG
FIT FOR THIS KIND OF DATA?
A. IT DEPENDS ENORMOUSLY ON THE RELATIONSHIP YOU'RE
LOOKING AT.
Q. WHAT WOULD SATISFY YOU IF YOU WERE LOOKING AT
P CONCENTRATIONS?
A. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE NATURE OF THE DATA. IF I
WAS LOOKING AT THE NORTH AMERICAN -- A
CROSS-SECTIONAL DATA SET, LIKE THE NORTH AMERICAN
DATA SET, TO -- AND THE MODELING WAS DONE
CORRECTLY, THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS WAS DONE
CORRECTLY, SO THE R-SQUARED WAS A MEANINGFUL
MEASURE, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE R-SQUAREDS IN THE
RANGE OF POINT SIX, POINT SEVEN, SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
Q. WOULD PART OF YOUR RATIONALE IN ACCEPTING AN
R-SQUARED AT THAT LEVEL AS BEING A GOOD FIT OR A
STRONG FIT?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 275
A. WELL, NO, A GOOD -- A PROPER ANALYSIS, BECAUSE IF
THE STATISTICAL ANALYSIS IS NOT DONE PROPERLY, AND
ASSUMPTIONS AND OTHER CONDITIONS ARE NOT MET, THE
R-SQUARE MAY BE A MISLEADING INDICATOR OF THE
GOODNESS OF THE MODEL.
Q. NOW, IN YOUR DISCUSSIONS AT THE TOC SUBCOMMITTEE,
DID THEY EVER DISCUSS THE MONITORING PROGRAM
THAT WAS BEING IMPLEMENTED FOR MEASUREMENT OF
FARM RUNOFF PHOSPHORUS AS A RESULT OF THE
DISTRICT'S BMP RULE, IF THAT TERM MEANS SOMETHING
TO YOU -- THE FLORIDA ADMINISTRATIVE CODE, RULE
40E-63?
A. THEY MAY HAVE DISCUSSED THAT; I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q. YOU DON'T RECALL THAT. REGARDING YOUR DOCUMENT
PRODUCTION, YOU USED A PHRASE YESTERDAY THAT I'M
SURE WAS JUST ONE OF THOSE CASUAL THINGS THAT
PEOPLE TEND TO USE. WHEN MR. REID WAS ASKING YOU
IF YOU HAD ANYTHING ELSE IN THE SERIAL PARAGRAPHS
IN YOUR NOTICE OF DEPOSITION -- WHICH THE UNITED
STATES ALSO, ESSENTIALLY, ADOPTED THE SAME
LISTING -- YOU RESPONDED WITH REGARD TO SEVERAL OF
THE PARAGRAPHS, "NOT THAT I CAN RECALL," WHEN HE
SAID DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING. WHAT DID YOU DO TO
REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHAT WAS AVAILABLE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 276
TO YOU, AND WHAT YOU HAD IN YOUR FILES?
A. AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT?
Q. NO, NOT JUST THEN. WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH THE
PROCESS OF COLLECTING THE TWENTY ODD DOCUMENTS
THAT WERE PROVIDED; I MEAN, DID YOU HAVE ONE FILE
THAT'S ALL YOUR EVERGLADES RELATED MATERIALS, OR
DID YOU HAVE TO SEARCH THROUGH -- I DON'T KNOW HOW
ORGANIZED YOU ARE, SO I'VE JUST GOT TO KIND TO
FEEL OUR WAY ALONG ON THIS ONE.
A. YEAH. AS I MENTIONED YESTERDAY, I HAD A FILE IN A
STACK OF MATERIALS IN THE OFFICE THAT I TRY TO
KEEP THINGS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH SONG'S WORK.
AND, SO, I IMMEDIATELY WENT TO THAT, AND THEN I
SPOKE WITH DONNA ABOUT, IN GENERAL, WHAT ALL OF
THAT MEANT, THE REQUEST FOR DOCUMENTS. AND THEN I
THOUGHT ABOUT IT. AND THE REASON, OF COURSE, I
SAID "I DON'T RECALL," IS WE -- EARLIER THIS
MORNING, I IDENTIFIED THAT COUPLE OF DAYS STUDY
THAT I DID ON THE PHOSPHORUS AND THE DEPTH THAT I
JUST DIDN'T REMEMBER YESTERDAY.
Q. DO YOU MAINTAIN SEPARATE CORRESPONDENCE FILES?
YOU KNOW, NOW, OTHER THAN THE FILES YOU HAVE AT
HOME ON YOUR CONSULTING WORK; BUT WITHIN YOUR
OFFICE, DO YOU HAVE SEPARATE CORRESPONDENCE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 277
FILES?
A. I HAVE A FILE OF CORRESPONDENCE, YES. I TEND
TO DEPEND, THOUGH, ON THE CORRESPONDENCE ON
THE -- ON FLOPPY DISKS AS MY BEST RECORD OF WHAT
I HAVE.
Q. DID YOU REVIEW YOUR DISKS TO SEE IF THERE WERE ANY
CORRESPONDENCE RELATED TO THE MATTERS IN THE
PARAGRAPHS CALLING FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS?
A. NO, I DIDN'T, NO.
Q. DO YOU HAVE A FACULTY SECRETARY?
A. WE HAVE---
Q. A SHARED FACULTY SECRETARY?
A. ---WELL, ONE SECRETARY FOR FOURTEEN FACULTY,
YES.
Q. AND DOES SHE EVER DO ROUTINE TYPING FOR YOU, OR
DO YOU HAVE TO PRETTY MUCH PRODUCE ALL YOUR OWN?
A. I, ESSENTIALLY, PRODUCE ALL MY OWN.
Q. DID YOU CHECK TO ENSURE THAT SHE WOULD NOT HAVE --
I MEAN, I ASSUME SHE'S GOT SOME KIND OF FILING
SYSTEM FOR EACH OF THE FACULTY?
A. I SUSPECT SHE DOES. I CHECKED MY RECOLLECTION ON
THAT, AND I FELT PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT I DON'T
HAVE CORRESPONDENCE WITH -- THROUGH THE SECRETARY
OR THAT WOULD BE ON DISKS, BUT NOT IN ONE OF THESE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 278
FILES.
Q. MR. REID WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT SOME LETTERS THAT
YOU RECALLED SEEING THAT RELATED TO THE GIFT---
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ---OR GIFTS, DEPENDING ON HOW IT WAS CHARACTERIZED
BY THE CO-OP TO THE WETLAND CENTER.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. ASIDE FROM SEEING THOSE, DID YOU RETAIN ANY COPIES
OF THOSE?
A. I CAN'T REMEMBER WHETHER I HAVE A COPY OF THE
LETTER OR NOT -- THE LETTERS OR NOT.
Q. IT'S YOUR RECOLLECTION THERE'S MORE THAN ONE?
A. MORE THAN ONE COPY?
Q. MORE THAN ONE LETTER.
A. MORE THAN -- THERE'S MORE THAN ONE LETTER, YEAH.
I THINK. I THINK THERE'S MORE THAN ONE LETTER.
THERE WERE TWO GIFTS---
Q. AND---
A. ---SO, I ASSUME THERE WAS A LETTER ASSOCIATED WITH
EACH GIFT.
Q. FOR THE PURPOSE OF OUR QUESTIONS, YOU DON'T --
THANK YOU FOR TELLING US YOU WERE ASSUMING IT.
BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO ASSUME AN ANSWER.
A. OH.
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DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 279
Q. IF YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU CAN JUST SAY YOU DON'T.
A. OKAY. THANKS.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOU HAVE, IN FACT, IN ANY OF YOUR
FILES COPIES OF THOSE? MIGHT YOU HAVE FILED IT --
I ASSUME YOU HAVE LIKE A GRAD STUDENT FOR EACH --
ON EACH OF YOUR GRAD STUDENTS, AND MAYBE IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN FILED IN THERE, BECAUSE IT RELATED TO
SONG AND THE FUNDING OF HIS WORK AND THAT SORT OF
THING?
A. I HAVE A FILE THAT IDENTIFIES THE DUKE UNIVERSITY
CODES FOR VARIOUS ACCOUNTS THAT WOULD BE FOR -- IN
THIS CASE, FOR THE GIFTS. AND IT -- WHAT I DON'T
REMEMBER IS WHETHER IN THAT FILE THERE'S A COPY OF
THE LETTER.
Q. AND THAT'S A FILE, THOUGH, THAT'S IN YOUR OFFICE?
A. THAT'S A FILE THAT'S IN MY OFFICE.
MR. FITZGERALD: I'LL INCLUDE THAT
IN THE LETTER, COUNSEL, BUT I'D ASK THAT
DR. RECKHOW WHEN HE HAS THE OPPORTUNITY
WOULD LOOK AND SEE IF, IN FACT, THAT IS
THERE.
Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) DR. RICHARDSON TESTIFIED AT
HIS DEPOSITION, SPECIFICALLY, THAT YOU ARE WORKING
ON A SETTLING RATE CONCEPTUAL MODEL. WOULD HE BE
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 280
REFERRING TO THE EMPIRICAL MODEL IDENTIFIED IN
EXHIBITS 23 AND 25 WHEN HE SAID THAT?
A. I THINK HE PROBABLY IS, YEAH.
Q. YOU'RE NOT WORKING ON ANY OTHER MODEL?
A. NO. NO.
Q. OKAY. BUT AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU'RE
NOT WORKING ON IT?
A. WE'RE NOT RIGHT NOW. WE'RE -- AS I SAID
YESTERDAY, WE'RE DEVELOPING THE PROPOSAL.
Q. AND FOR HIM TO SAY YOU'RE WORKING ON IT, BASED ON
YOUR TESTIMONY, I SHOULD NOT READ MORE INTO THAT,
OTHER THAN YOU'RE DOING THE FACULTY ADVISORY
THING---
A. THAT---
Q. ---WITH RESPECT TO THAT MODEL?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. BASED, NOW, SOLELY ON YOUR Ph.D. WORK ON THE
NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION STUDY, WHAT WOULD YOU
DESCRIBE AS A EUTROPHIED PEAT SOIL WETLAND?
A. I CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
Q. YOU SAID EUTROPHICATION, IN YOUR MIND, IS A
CONCEPT THAT VARIES FROM ECOSYSTEM TO ECOSYSTEM.
A. FROM -- FROM SITE TO SITE, YEAH.
Q. SO, EVEN IN SITES OF COMPARABLE ECOSYSTEM,
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 281
FRESHWATER LAKES, MOUNTAIN TARN, WHATEVER, FROM
SITE TO SITE, YOU SEE NO LEGITIMACY IN APPLYING
THE SAME GENERAL EUTROPHICATION NOTIONS OR
STANDARDS?
A. AND I THINK THAT'S GENERALLY ACCEPTED. IF YOU
WERE TO GO TO STATES IN THE UNITED STATES, YOU'D
FIND THAT THEIR CRITERIA FOR EUTROPHIC VARIES FROM
STATE TO STATE.
Q. NOW, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TROPHIC
CLASSIFICATION SCHEME THAT SOME FELLOWS NAMED
HENDERSON-SELLERS -- ANOTHER HYPHENATED -- AND
MARKLAND -- PUT OUT IN 1987 OECD? ARE YOU
FAMILIAR WITH THAT?
A. NOT -- NOT EXACTLY FAMILIAR WITH IT, NO. NO. I
MAY HAVE SEEN IT. I DON'T---
Q. ARE THERE CLASSIFICATION SCHEMES, TO YOUR
KNOWLEDGE, THAT RATE THE EUTROPHICATION LEVELS, OR
ATTEMPT TO ASSIGN A TROPHIC LEVEL TO TROPHIC
CLASSIFICATION SCHEMES?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER WORKED WITH THOSE?
A. YES.
Q. WHAT PARTICULAR SCHEMES, IF ANY, ARE YOU FAMILIAR
WITH OF THOSE RATING SCHEMES?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 282
A. EPA PROPOSED A TROPHIC STATE SCHEME ASSOCIATED
WITH THE NATIONAL EUTROPHICATION SURVEY ABOUT
TWENTY YEARS AGO. BOB CARLSON PROPOSED A TROPHIC
STATE INDEX. THAT'S PROBABLY THE MOST COMMONLY
CITED ONE IN THE UNITED STATES ABOUT -- I THINK IT
WAS ABOUT FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.
Q. NOW, THE CARLSON INDEX IS USED -- IS APPLIED QUITE
A BIT TO MANMADE LAKES IN URBAN AREAS AND SETTLING
PONDS, IS IT NOT, TO DETERMINE---
A. THAT I'M NOT FAMILIAR -- WELL, WHO APPLIES IT, I
CAN'T -- I CAN'T---
Q. IT'S GENERALLY AVAILABLE, THOUGH?
A. IT'S A -- IT'S A REFEREED PUBLICATION THAT
PRESENTED ITSELF, YEAH. IT'S---
Q. IF YOU APPLIED EITHER OF THE SYSTEMS YOU'RE
FAMILIAR WITH, WOULD THE EVERGLADES CLASSIFY AS A
EUTROPHIED SYSTEM?
A. I DON'T KNOW WITHOUT ACTUALLY APPLYING IT, BUT I
WOULD -- I'D ALSO SAY THAT THE CARLSON INDEX --
AND I'VE SAID THIS A NUMBER OF TIMES IN WRITING --
THAT THE CARLSON INDEX AND EPA SCHEMES AND OTHER
SCHEMES THAT ARE APPROPRIATE IN ONE REGION MAY NOT
BE APPROPRIATE IN ANOTHER.
Q. WHAT WOULD YOU DEFINE AS AN OLIGOTROPHIC SYSTEM?
DR. RECKHOW VOLUME I PAGE 283
A. AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WHEN ASKED THAT, IT'S
NUTRIENT POOR.
Q. OKAY. IS THERE A GENERALLY ACCEPTED SCIENTIFIC
COMMUNITY VALUE FOR WHEN ONE GOES FROM NUTRIENT