STATE OF FLORIDA

DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )

OF FLORIDA, a Florida )

Agricultural Cooperative )

Marketing Association, ROTH )

FARMS, INC., AND WEDGWORTH )

FARMS, INC., )

)

and )

)

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, )

INC.; UNITED STATES SUGAR )

CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE )

SOUTH, INC., )

) CASE NOS. 92-3038

and ) 92-3039

) 92-3040

FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )

ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, )

W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )

and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

)

Petitioners, )

)

vs. )

)

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

DISTRICT, an Agency of the )

State of Florida, )

)

Respondent, )

)

and )

)

MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF )

FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF )

AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT )

OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, )

and the FLORIDA WILDLIFE )

FEDERATION, )

)

Intervenors. )

)

DEPOSITION OF ALBERTO S. RECIO

 

 

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

DEPOSITION OF ALBERTO S. RECIO

250 Australian Avenue South

Clearlake Center

Suite 1403

West Palm Beach, Florida

February 9, 1993

9:52 A.M.

A P P E A R A N C E S:

FOR PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.;

UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE

SOUTH, INC.:

PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK

BY: MARK T. KOBELINSKI, ESQ.

One Biscayne Tower

Suite 3636

Two South Biscayne Boulevard

Miami, Florida 33131

(305) 358-3000

FOR RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR THE UNITED STATES OF

AMERICA:

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

ROBERTO MARTINEZ,

UNITED STATES ATTORNEY

BY: THOMAS A. WATTS-FITZGERALD,

ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY

Southern District of Florida

155 South Miami Avenue

Suite 627

Miami, Florida 33130

(305) 536-5927

 

 

 

 

 

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

A P P E A R A N C E S (continued)

FOR NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC. AS IN-HOUSE COUNSEL:

WILLIAM F. TARR, ESQ.

316 Royal Poinciana Plaza

P.O. Box 1059

Palm Beach, Florida 33480

(407) 655-6303

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 The deposition of ALBERTO S. RECIO, a witness of

2 lawful age, taken for the purpose of discovery and for

3 use as evidence in the above-styled cause, pending in the

4 State of Florida, Division of Administrative Hearings,

5 pursuant to notice, before Pamela S. Wilson, Notary

6 Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, at the

7 time and place aforesaid.

8 * * * * * * *

9 I N D E X

10

WITNESS DIRECT

11

ALBERTO S. RECIO

12

(By Mr. Watts-FitzGerald) 5

13

14

15 E X H I B I T S

16 RECIO FOR IDENTIFICATION

17 1(1-6) Notice of Taking Deposition 7

18 2(1-3) Witness's CV 20

19 3 Witness 's designated subject matter 130

20 4 Copy of "The Palm Beach Post"

article dated January 24, 1993 166

21

5(1-33) Everglades Research and Education

22 Center "Results and Recommendations" 167

23 6(1-11) Fertilizer Maps 170

24

25

 

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Thereupon:

2 ALBERTO S. RECIO

3 was called as a witness by the Defendant and, having been

4 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

5 DIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD:

7 Q Good morning, Mr. Recio. I'm

8 Tom FitzGerald, representing the United States, which

9 served the Notice of Deposition on you.

10 Have you ever been deposed before, sir?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q When was that?

13 A Couple of occasions a year or two ago.

14 Q In connection with what case?

15 A The last one I remember was the Closter

16 Farms and the fishermen for the lake. I don't remember

17 exactly the name of the group.

18 Q That had to do with the Fanjul

19 organization's attempt to acquire the Closter Farms and

20 the Florida fishermen trying to persuade the --

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection. No foundation.

22 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You can answer

23 that. Is that the case you're talking about?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Have you been deposed other than in that

5ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 case?

2 A I don't remember.

3 Q So far as you remember, only the one time?

4 A (Witness indicates by nodding head up and

5 down.)

6 Q Okay. Well, you may recall from that, but

7 in case you don't, if at any time I ask a question and

8 you don't understand the question or you want me to

9 clarify what it is I mean, please just tell me, and I'll

10 try to restate the question in a way you're more

11 comfortable with.

12 During the course of the proceedings, if

13 your counsel objects to a question, I'm sure he has

14 explained to you that you are still obligated to answer

15 the question unless he specifically directs you not to

16 answer. But if he does object, you should stop for a

17 minute so we can deal with it. It may be something we

18 can correct. If not, simply go ahead unless he directs

19 you not to answer.

20 If at any time during the deposition you

21 want to take a break, get a drink of water or cup of

22 coffee, let me know. We'll probably break for lunch

23 around noon or so since we're getting a little bit of a

24 late start. And if you decide you want a break earlier,

25 let me know. We'll try to find a convenient place to

6ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 break.

2 Do you understand all that?

3 A Yes.

4 (Recio Exhibit 1(1-6) was marked

5 for identification by the reporter and is

6 included herewith.)

7 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'm showing you

8 what has been marked as Exhibit 1 for this deposition.

9 It's a copy of the Deposition Notice. Have you seen that

10 before, Mr. Recio?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Have you had a chance to go through the

13 document with regard to the particular documents it asked

14 for you to produce here today, starting on the bottom of

15 page 5 and going over to page 6?

16 A Yes. The documents, that's been provided to

17 you.

18 Q We'll get to the documents that you brought.

19 But have you had a chance to go through the -- what is

20 it? -- eight numbered paragraphs, starting on the bottom

21 of page 5 that specify what documents we were asking you

22 to bring?

23 A I have been looking through the ones that we

24 provided to you and more exactly if they coincide with

25 this or not.

7ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q How did you go about finding documents that

2 met the requirements of the Notice, Hearing Notice of

3 this -- Deposition Notice. I'm sorry.

4 A By going over to the New Hope South farm

5 office and trying to get whatever documents were

6 requested over here.

7 Q Where are the offices of New Hope South

8 located where your records would have been?

9 A South Highway 27.

10 Q Okay. In what city?

11 A It is not any city. It's in the field.

12 Q Pardon me? In an unincorporated area? Who

13 actually maintains those records, maintains custody on a

14 day-to-day basis?

15 A Our manager.

16 MR. TARR: Manager.

17 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What's the

18 manager's name?

19 A Calixto Garcia.

20 Q Where is your office, sir?

21 A My office is located in Osceola Farms.

22 Q Do you have a formal position with Osceola

23 Farms?

24 A Yes.

25 Q What is your position with Osceola?

8ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Vice-president.

2 Q In the designation filed by Peeples, Earl in

3 October of this past year, you were described as the

4 senior vice-president of New Hope South, Incorporated,

5 with an address in Palm Beach, Florida, a post office box

6 address, I guess, and addressed to Royal Poinciana Plaza.

7 Are you a senior vice-president of New Hope South, also?

8 A Yes.

9 Q So you're senior vice-president of New Hope

10 South and just vice-president at Osceola or --

11 A Just vice-president.

12 Q Do you hold at this time any other corporate

13 officer positions with any corporation or entity involved

14 in farming in the State of Florida?

15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance of

16 the question.

17 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You can answer.

18 A Yes, I do.

19 Q What other corporations do you have a

20 position with at this time?

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

22 You can respond.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm a senior vice-president of

24 Okeelanta Corporation.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okeelanta

9ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Corporation?

2 A Okeelanta.

3 Q Any others?

4 A I'm a vice-president of several

5 corporations.

6 Q What corporations are those?

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

8 relevance.

9 THE WITNESS: New Hope Sugar Comany.

10 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What company?

11 A New Hope Sugar Company.

12 Q Okay.

13 A South Florida Industry.

14 Q That's "Industry"?

15 A Industry.

16 Q What is the business of that corporation?

17 A It's agriculture.

18 Q Within the EAA?

19 A Yes.

20 Q What type of agriculture is South Florida

21 Industry involved in?

22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Again, object to the

23 relevance.

24 Go ahead.

25 THE WITNESS: Primarily farming sugar

10ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 cane.

2 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Is that a wholly

3 owned subsidiary of any other company?

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the

5 relevance as to ownership of South Florida

6 Industry.

7 THE WITNESS: South Florida Industry is

8 owned by New Hope Sugar Co-op.

9 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: New Hope Sugar

10 Co-op? What's the relationship of New Hope Sugar Company

11 to New Hope South, Incorporated?

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance,

13 and it assumes a relevance that has not been

14 stated in the record.

15 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't know any

16 relationship between New Hope Sugar Company and

17 New Hope South.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Who were the other

19 directors of New Hope Sugar Company?

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the --

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'm sorry. Who

22 were the other officers? Who's the director? the

23 president?

24 A Of New Hope Sugar Company?

25 Q Yes.

11ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

2 THE WITNESS: Alfonso Fanjul.

3 Q Is Alfonso Fanjul also the president of New

4 Hope?

5 A He's the --

6 Q Who's the president?

7 A Jose Fanjul.

8 Q Who is the president of South Florida

9 Industry?

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Again, same objection as

11 to relevance.

12 THE WITNESS: It's the same person.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Alfonso or Jose?

14 A The president is Jose.

15 Q Who is the chairman?

16 A Alfonso.

17 Q You also said you were a vice-president of

18 Okeelanta Corporation. Who is the president?

19 A Jose Fanjul.

20 Q And who's chairman of the corporation?

21 A Alfonso Fanjul.

22 Q Are you an officer of any sort with Flo-Sun?

23 A Yes.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What's your

12ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 position with Flo-Sun?

2 A Vice-president.

3 Q Who is the president of Flo-Sun?

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

5 THE WITNESS: Jose Fanjul.

6 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Who is the

7 chairman?

8 A Alfonso Fanjul.

9 Q Is Flo-Sun a holding company?

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to the

11 relevance for these proceedings.

12 THE WITNESS: I really don't know how to

13 answer that question.

14 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What are the

15 nature -- you're vice-president with Flo-Sun. What is

16 the nature of your duties with Flo-Sun --

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the relevancy.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: -- as

19 vice-president?

20 A My duties as a vice-president of Flo-Sun are

21 to oversee any farming operation related to Flo-Sun.

22 Q When you say oversee farming operations

23 related to Flo-Sun, does that mean you oversee the

24 farming operations of the series of company's we've just

25 identified that you are either a vice-president or senior

13ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 vice-president for?

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance

3 and objection as to lack of foundation of the

4 question.

5 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

6 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. So you then

7 oversee the farming-operation side for New Hope Sugar

8 Co-op, South Florida Industry, New Hope Sugar Company,

9 Okeelanta Corporation and Osceola Farms? For all those?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Are there any other companies engaged in

12 farming activities in the EAA over which you exercise

13 oversight of the farming operations?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay. If I can, let's go through that list

16 again and ask how long you have been in your

17 vice-presidency position with each of those companies,

18 starting with Osceola Farms.

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to

20 relevance.

21 You can respond.

22 THE WITNESS: About fifteen years.

23 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. Okeelanta?

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

25 relevance.

14ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Counsel, if you'd

2 like, I'll accept a standing objection on

3 relevance as to this line of questioning, just

4 for convenience.

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: That's fine.

6 THE WITNESS: Seven years.

7 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you know who

8 held the position before you with Okeelanta, if it

9 existed?

10 A No, I don't.

11 Q How long have you been a vice-president for

12 New Hope Sugar Company?

13 A Over twenty years.

14 Q And how long for South Florida Industry?

15 A I don't remember exactly. Maybe eight

16 years.

17 Q And New Hope Sugar Co-op?

18 A Exactly, I don't remember. Seven, eight

19 years.

20 Q About the same amount of time you've been

21 with Okeelanta as a vice-president?

22 A No. A little bit longer.

23 Q Longer? You're listed as a senior

24 vice-president, for testimonial purposes, of New Hope

25 South, Incorporated. Is that the same as New Hope Sugar

15ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Company?

2 A No.

3 Q Is that the same as New Hope Sugar Co-op?

4 A No.

5 Q How long have you been senior

6 vice-president -- vice-president with New Hope South,

7 Inc.?

8 A Four or five years.

9 Q Do you know who had the position before you,

10 if it existed before that?

11 A No.

12 Q Did the company exist longer ago than five

13 years?

14 A No.

15 Q So it's been in existence approximately five

16 years, then. Do you know if Okeelanta existed as a

17 corporation prior to your being a senior VP about

18 seven years ago?

19 A No.

20 Q It did not exist?

21 A I don't think so.

22 Q Same question with regard to New Hope Sugar

23 Co-op. You said you'd been there about eight years. Did

24 it exist prior to that?

25 A No.

16ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Do any of the companies for which you

2 exercise agricultural-production oversight engage in any

3 other agricultural activities in the EAA other than the

4 growing of sugar cane?

5 A Yes.

6 Q What other agricultural activities? And

7 please tell me which company you're referring to, the

8 industries engaged in, or those various businesses.

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the

10 relevance of the question to the extent it goes

11 toward agricultural practices other than those of

12 New Hope South, Inc.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You can answer.

14 A We grow rice.

15 Q Which companies, when you say "we," are you

16 referring to?

17 A I'm talking about New Hope South.

18 Q New Hope South grows some rice. Do any of

19 the other agricultural enterprises you're involved in

20 grow rice?

21 A Yes.

22 Q All of them?

23 A Most of them.

24 Q Which ones -- it's probably easier, then, to

25 exclude. Which ones do not grow rice?

17ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A I by memory cannot answer that question.

2 Q Do any of those organizations have a mill or

3 processing facility for rice in the EAA?

4 A No.

5 Q The rice that is grown under your general

6 supervision for those companies, by whom is it processed?

7 A By --

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the

9 relevance of question to the extent it goes

10 beyond --

11 THE WITNESS: By Sem-Chi rice mill.

12 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: By Sem-Chi?

13 A S-e-m, dash, C-h-i.

14 Q Where is that located?

15 A It's located south off of old Highway 80,

16 the road that goes to Okeelanta Corporation.

17 Q Do you know by whom that's owned?

18 A By Okeelanta Corporation.

19 Q Through your senior vice-presidency with

20 Okeelanta, do you have any direct involvement in the

21 Sem-Chi mill?

22 A Yes.

23 Q What do you do with the Sem-Chi mill?

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Again, object to the

25 legal relevance of these questions with regard to

18ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 these proceedings.

2 THE WITNESS: I'm the vice-president.

3 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Who is the

4 president of -- are you a vice-president separately for

5 Sem-Chi? Is that a separate corporation?

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the extent it

7 calls for a legal conclusion.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think it's a -- it's

9 a separate corporation.

10 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Are you an officer

11 of that corporation, too, if you know?

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the relevance.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes.

14 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Vice-president?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Who's the president?

17 A Jose Fanjul.

18 Q And the chairman is Alfonso --

19 A Right.

20 Q -- Fanjul?

21 Okay. Do all of the companies that you are

22 involved with in the agricultural industry in the EAA

23 send their rice -- those that grow rice -- to the Sem-Chi

24 mill?

25 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the extent

19ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 it calls for --

2 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- information on

4 production of rice other than by New Hope South,

5 Inc.

6 (Recio Exhibit 2(1-3) was marked

7 for identification by the reporter and is

8 included herewith.)

9 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I have here,

10 Mr. Recio, what's been produced by you this morning.

11 It's been marked as Exhibit 2, and it appears to be a

12 brief sort of job-description statement and then a

13 curriculum vitae or biographical statement. If you

14 could, just take a look at this and tell me if that's

15 your current CV or biographical statement.

16 A Yes.

17 Q Mr. Recio, it states here that in addition

18 to being a senior vice-president, you are also a director

19 of Okeelanta Corporation; is that correct?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Are you also a director of Flo-Sun?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q With regard to the other agri-businesses in

24 the EAA that we've been discussing, in addition to being

25 vice-president of each of those organizations, are you

20ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 the director of each of those as well?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the relevance.

4 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: In addition to

5 being an officer and director of those approximately six

6 or seven corporate entities, do you have an ownership

7 interest in those entities?

8 A No.

9 Q Do you have an ownership interest in any of

10 those entities?

11 A No.

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Are you a salaried

14 employee of each of those entities?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And that's in your capacity as

17 vice-president?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Are you separately compensated for being a

20 director of those corporations?

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

22 THE WITNESS: I directly were not being

23 compensated independently, but I know that my salary has

24 to be redistributed.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: So your salary

21ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 that you receive as a vice-president includes everything

2 in terms of your work as a director as well?

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the --

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- relevancy of the

6 question.

7 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Are any of those

8 companies publicly traded?

9 A No.

10 Q Do you hold stock in any of those companies?

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection. Asked and

12 answered and relevance.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes.

14 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Which companies do

15 you hold stock in?

16 A Flo-Sun.

17 Q Okay. Do you have stock options on Flo-Sun?

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the relevance.

19 THE WITNESS: The stock I have are stock

20 options.

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Are any of the

22 companies we've been discussing with which you're

23 involved in agricultural business in the EAA not

24 currently producing sugar cane in the EAA?

25 A No.

22ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Can you recall if any of them are not

2 currently growing or producing rice in the EAA?

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form of

4 the question. It's stated as negative, and also

5 object to the relevance of the question.

6 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat your

7 question?

8 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You indicated

9 earlier that some of those companies that you conduct

10 agricultural oversight or production oversight in the EAA

11 for have produced or produce rice. What I'm trying to

12 find out, if you can help me out here, is: Are they all

13 currently producing rice, or have any perhaps stopped

14 being involved in the rice-growing business?

15 A That varies from year to year.

16 Q Is that dependent on the growth patterns of

17 the sugar cane, when and where your companies decide to

18 grow rice?

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the form

20 of the question to, number one, "your companies".

21 Number two, I'll object to the extent it calls

22 for information outside of that of the

23 agricultural practices of New Hope South, Inc.

24 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'll rephrase.

25 Q When I say "your companies," I understand

23ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 you don't own the companies, but the companies with which

2 you're associated is what I meant when I say "your

3 companies," the companies of which you're an officer or

4 director.

5 Does the decision by those companies to grow

6 rice in any given year -- is that tied or related to the

7 pattern of growth of sugar cane on the lands available to

8 those companies?

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

10 relevance.

11 THE WITNESS: Rice is being grown by the

12 time the cane is rotated.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: So when a field is

14 left fallow from cane, the companies will occasionally or

15 as a practice grow rice in an off-year -- or off crop?

16 A Yes.

17 Q In your experience as the supervisor of

18 agricultural production for those companies, is that

19 always done? Do they always grow rice during the fallow

20 season between cane rotations?

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

22 Also object to the form of the question to extent

23 it encompasses all companies even though all are

24 not in.

25 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Just so maybe I can

24ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 clarify this, would you explain how, as a fact

2 witness on agricultural practices, that could be

3 irrelevant when I'm asking him what their

4 agricultural practices are with regard to

5 rotating crops?

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Again, my objection was

7 to the agricultural practices other than those of

8 New Hope South, Inc., as the Petitioner here.

9 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. If you can

10 answer, understand, my question is not restricted to New

11 Hope South, Inc. I'm talking about the six or eight

12 companies you're associated with.

13 A Not always are they rotated with rice.

14 Q Who makes the decision whether to plant in

15 the off-season, if you will, or at the rotation out of

16 sugar-cane growth rice in a particular field?

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form of

18 the question. It does not specify as to what

19 company or what fields are being referenced.

20 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Well, maybe I can

21 clarify it.

22 Q Mr. Recio, that type of decision, does that

23 fall within your area of responsibility for New Hope

24 South?

25 A It been discussed with me by the local

25ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 managers.

2 Q The local manager for New Hope being

3 Calixto Garcia?

4 A Correct.

5 Q So he would discuss for you the lands under

6 the control of New Hope South, Incorporated, whether or

7 not to plant rice in any given year in a given field?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q Let me ask, what factors do you consider to

10 make that decision?

11 A Type of soil and conditions.

12 Q How much land has New Hope South had in

13 sugar cane production since it began seven years ago --

14 approximately seven years ago?

15 A It's about 27,000.

16 Q And all that land, is it within the EAA?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Do you know which drainage basins the land

19 is in?

20 A Primarily it drains to the north New River

21 Canal, and the other canal is, as I understand, the

22 Hillsboro Canal.

23 Q So the properties that are being farmed by

24 New Hope South are primarily towards the eastern side of

25 the EAA, southeastern EAA?

26ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A To the south.

2 Q Has New Hope South farmed essentially the

3 same 27,000 acres during its entire existence?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Is that land owned by New Hope South?

6 A Part.

7 Q Who owns the balance of the land?

8 A Okeelanta Corporation.

9 Q Does New Hope South lease that land to

10 Okeelanta Corporation?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q In any given year over the past eight

13 years -- seven to eight years that New Hope South has

14 been farming, how much of the 27,000 acres is devoted, in

15 any given year, to sugar cane?

16 A 80, 85 percent.

17 Q And the balance, the 15 to 20 percent that

18 is not in sugar cane in any given year, what crop, if

19 any, is it?

20 A That's where the rice is being grown.

21 Q Does New Hope South ever leave land entirely

22 fallow?

23 A Occasionally.

24 Q And for what purpose would you decide to

25 leave land fallow?

27ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A If it's not suitable for rice.

2 Q What type of soil do you need to grow rice

3 in the EAA?

4 A A level field with a good drainage and

5 irrigation area.

6 Q Are not a level field and good drainage and

7 irrigation required for sugar cane growth as well?

8 A No. That's more just the rice.

9 Q Is the rice more sensitive to water level or

10 water table level than sugar cane?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q Of the 15 to 20 percent of land controlled

13 by New Hope South, Inc., that would be fallow or not from

14 sugar cane in any given year, how much of that would be

15 truly fallow in no crop at all, no rice, just lying

16 there?

17 A It might change from year to year.

18 Q Is an effort made to minimize the amount of

19 land that just sits idle?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Because idle land is producing no return to

22 the company -- is that correct? -- if there's no crop on

23 it?

24 A Yes.

25 Q In your decision in consultation with

28ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Mr. Garcia as to whether or not to plant rice on a given

2 property in a year when it's not planted in cane, do you

3 consider the market conditions, market prices for rice?

4 A No.

5 Q Do you take into account in any way the cost

6 of producing that crop before you make the decision to

7 plant a particular field in rice?

8 A Not exactly.

9 Q Why not?

10 A Rice has been produced in rotation with cane

11 not as much for a profit. It's a good agricultural

12 practice to improve the condition of the land.

13 Q What does growing rice in former sugar cane

14 land do for the land?

15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of the

16 question to the extent it refers to "former sugar

17 cane land."

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You stated in your

19 testimony previously, if I understood it correctly, that

20 you would be growing rice out of -- during a rotational

21 period when the particular field was not planted in sugar

22 cane, and you have said that you do that as a farming

23 practice that is good for the land.

24 What is it that the rice crop does for the

25 land during the periods the land is not planted in sugar

29ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 cane?

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of the

3 question to the extent it paraphrased an

4 incomplete summary of what his prior testimony

5 is.

6 You can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: By growing rice you have to

8 level your fields. You have to keep the cover

9 crop like the rice, and then the rice will be

10 going back to the land, the fiber of the rice.

11 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Does that act as a

12 natural fertilizer for subsequent crops of sugar cane?

13 A It improve the physical condition of the

14 soil.

15 Q "By physical condition," do you mean it

16 aerates the soil, or it breaks it up? What precisely

17 does it mean?

18 A By adding fiber, you make it more fluffy and

19 better condition.

20 Q How do you level the field after sugar cane

21 has been planted in order for it to be level enough for

22 rice?

23 A By a lot of leveling devices operated by

24 laser beam.

25 Q Does New Hope South maintain its own

30ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 equipment to do that?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Is that New Hope South equipment for -- is

4 it equipment that is common to the six to eight companies

5 that you do agricultural oversight for?

6 A It's owned by New Hope South.

7 Q Do each of the companies that you provide

8 agricultural oversight for do the same type of thing with

9 regard to planting rice?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Does each have its own leveling equipment?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Do you level every time you're going to

14 plant rice?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Without exception?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Does a crop of sugar cane and its several

19 ratoons -- that's r-a-t-o-o-n, ratoons -- affect the

20 level of the field such that you must do it every time to

21 successfully cultivate rice?

22 A To successfully cultivate rice, you need to

23 have a perfect leveling.

24 Q Do you flood the fields that you're going to

25 plant in rice prior to the planting?

31ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A No.

2 Q On the small percentage of fields that New

3 Hope South allows to lay fallow and not plant in rice

4 during a rotation out of sugar cane, do you flood its

5 fields?

6 A If it's allowed by the South Florida Water

7 Management District.

8 Q What's the purpose of flooding the field?

9 A To better control the soil's insects.

10 Q How long do you flood the field for in order

11 to control the insects in the soil?

12 A For as long as you can.

13 Q Is there any outside limit practically, from

14 a farming standpoint, or can you leave it flooded until

15 you're ready to plant it again?

16 A As close as you can be able to plant your

17 next crop.

18 Q Okay. In your experience, is rainfall

19 sufficient to maintain the flooded condition of the

20 field?

21 A In certain years, yes.

22 Q How about in an average rainfall year in the

23 EAA?

24 A No. You have to depend on the flood and

25 pump the water in.

32ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q You draw water from the primary canals of

2 the South Florida Water Management District?

3 A We draw waters from waters primarily in the

4 farm before we actually draw waters from the primary

5 canals.

6 Q Does New Hope South, Inc.'s farms -- the

7 fields that you actually cultivate, are they contiguous,

8 if you understand what I mean? Are they all --

9 A Let me ask you a question.

10 Q Sure.

11 A Are you referring to rice, or are you

12 referring to cane?

13 Q I'm referring to all the land now, rice and

14 cane. Are they contiguous such that you can move water

15 from a cane field to a rice field and back and through

16 your field ditches and drainage ditches?

17 A In the case of New Hope South, yes.

18 Q So New Hope South land is contiguous

19 hydrologically, in terms of --

20 A Two separate units.

21 Q Are they connected by canals?

22 A The two units, no.

23 Q Do you grow rice in both units?

24 A Yes.

25 Q When you say you try and move water around

33ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 internally first to maintain flooded condition of a

2 field, can you move rice -- I'm sorry. Can you move

3 water between those two units?

4 A No.

5 Q Or only between units?

6 A No.

7 Q Other companies or enterprises farm the

8 lands between the two units?

9 A We are divided by north New River Canal and

10 27.

11 Q So you're across the canal and across the

12 highway; so that's why you can't move --

13 A Yes.

14 Q In a dry year, when you are irrigating

15 instead of pumping, where do you acquire your irrigation

16 water for pumping?

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of

18 question. It lacks definition of "dry year."

19 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you know what I

20 mean by "dry year"?

21 A We always draw water from South Florida

22 Water Management District when it's a dry year and when

23 it's allowed.

24 Q When would it be?

25 A When is it allowed?

34ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Yes.

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the extent --

3 THE WITNESS: South Florida Water

4 Management exercises control over the irrigation

5 water, and it allows you to draw water or not to

6 draw water.

7 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you deal with

8 the South Florida Water Management District on those

9 issues, on water-availability issues?

10 A No. That's general orders by South Florida

11 Water Management District.

12 Q So if they impose water restrictions or use

13 restrictions, you would not be able to draw irrigation

14 water necessarily from their canals?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay. Do you recall that happening in the

17 time that you've been overseeing agricultural production

18 in the EAA?

19 A One or two times.

20 Q Do you remember, how long ago was the last?

21 A No.

22 Q In a year of average rainfall, do you know

23 what the -- as oversight for agricultural operations and

24 production, do you know what an average rainfall is in

25 the EAA?

35ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Around 50 to 60 inches a year.

2 Q In a year of average rainfall, does New Hope

3 South still draw irrigation water from the canals?

4 A Occasionally.

5 Q Let's see. With regard to some of the

6 companies, you've been out there for about eighteen to

7 twenty years. So would I be correct in saying you've

8 seen some very wet years as well?

9 A Yes.

10 Q In very wet years, because of the timing of

11 the rainfall, would you still have drawn or would you

12 still expect to draw water to support your agricultural

13 operations from the primary canals of the district?

14 A Yes, but not at the time of the rain.

15 Q What type of muck are the two parcels or two

16 areas, units, farmed by New Hope South composed of, the

17 soil composition?

18 A It's a muck.

19 Q Do you know which type of muck?

20 A It's Okeelanta and Ceiro (phonetic).

21 Q Do you know the average muck depth in the

22 two areas?

23 A It varies.

24 Q Is that indicated anywhere in the documents

25 that you're producing this morning?

36ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A No.

2 Q It just says "muck." When did you first

3 begin your association with the Everglades Agricultural

4 Area?

5 A 1962.

6 Q And how did your association with the EAA

7 come about in 1962?

8 A I start working on the farm.

9 Q What had you done before that, prior to

10 1962?

11 A I was in Cuba.

12 Q I thought that date rang a familiar note.

13 You received a Master of Science degree in agricultural

14 engineering from the University of Havana in 1947?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Did you, in the course of your studies for

17 the Master's, concentrate on any particular area of

18 agricultural engineering?

19 A No.

20 Q Can you describe for me the course of

21 instruction at that time for a Master's of Science in

22 agricultural engineering, what exactly that entailed?

23 A Let me qualify the Master degree. That's a

24 translation to the equivalent of the American studies.

25 In our case, you cannot get a Bachelor's and a Master's

37ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 in a separate way. You have to take five-year courses,

2 and at the end, it was a title being given of

3 agricultural engineer.

4 Q So that's a five-year course of instruction

5 that you took?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And what type of courses were you required

8 to take in order to achieve that degree?

9 A A lot of courses of going from basically

10 chemistry, physics, mathematics, and botany and going

11 over to specific courses in soil chemistry.

12 Q Did your courses in soil chemistry include

13 study in augmenting or enhancing soil quality for

14 agricultural purposes?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Did you study fertilization for crop

17 enhancement?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Did you have any courses at that time

20 specifically addressed to the cultivation or processing

21 of sugar cane?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And did you have any courses addressing the

24 production or processing of rice crops?

25 A Yes.

38ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Both rice and sugar cane were major crops in

2 Cuba at the time you received your degree, were they not?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Sugar cane more than rice?

5 A Yes.

6 Q After completing your course of study in

7 1947, how did you put your degree to practical use? What

8 did you do after that?

9 A I went to manage the family business

10 enterprise that was primarily a cattle farm.

11 Q Were you engaged at all in agricultural

12 operations other than the raising of cattle?

13 A No.

14 Q You indicate on your resume that you were

15 also working as an independent consultant for the cattle

16 ranches in Camaguey and Oriente in Cuba, the Provinces.

17 At that time had you any association with the Fanjul

18 farming interest --

19 A No.

20 Q -- in Cuba?

21 (Whereupon Mr. Tarr left the deposition

22 proceedings.)

23 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. Your resume

24 indicates from 1952 to approximately 1959 you were an

25 agricultural agent in the Province of Camaguey for the

39ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Cuban government's Department of Agriculture. What was

2 the nature of your duties in that position?

3 A Similar to the county agent over here.

4 Q Okay. The county agent program in the

5 United States or in Florida -- as I understand it, they

6 provide advice and guidance to farm interests in their

7 area.

8 A That's correct.

9 Q So that's essentially what you were doing?

10 A Essentially.

11 Q What type of farm interests were you

12 providing to and guidance to in the Camaguey Province

13 during those seven years?

14 A It varies for different type of crop or

15 whatever the farmers need assistance to.

16 Q Were any of the farmers that you assisted

17 producing sugar cane?

18 A Yes.

19 Q How about rice?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you recall what type of advice or

22 guidance, if any, you were providing with regard to sugar

23 cane and rice during those years?

24 A The type to be using.

25 Q Did you give advice and guidance on the

40ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 issue of fertilizing sugar cane crops?

2 A Whatever they need.

3 Q Is the same true with regard to rice crops?

4 A That's right.

5 Q As part of your training for your degree and

6 your experience up through 1959 in Cuba, do you feel that

7 you have a detailed understanding of the requirements for

8 successfully growing rice and sugar?

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form to the

10 extent you're referencing a geographic area.

11 You can respond.

12 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat your

13 question?

14 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: During that

15 seven-year period and the five years of your degree

16 program before that -- I guess that actually skips the

17 few years that you were self-employed -- do you feel that

18 you gained a detailed understanding of what agricultural

19 conditions were required and what agricultural practices

20 were required in order to successfully produce sugar cane

21 and rice in Cuba -- I said in Cuba earlier -- during that

22 period of time?

23 A What do you mean "detailed"?

24 Q By "detailed," I mean the soil-chemistry

25 conditions, the growth periods, seed-selection criteria,

41ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 irrigation practices, cultivation-harvesting practices,

2 basically up through harvesting, not looking at

3 processing at the moment.

4 A Yes.

5 Q Did you also deal with the processing after

6 cultivation and harvesting of the crops?

7 (Interruption.)

8 (Whereupon Mr. Tarr entered the deposition

9 proceedings.)

10 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I guess the

11 pending question is: Do you or did you have any

12 involvement during your periods as an agricultural agent

13 for the Department of Agriculture in Camaguey any issues

14 related to post-harvest processing of sugar cane or rice?

15 A No.

16 Q So your work was all pre-harvest --

17 A Correct.

18 Q -- or up to harvest, I guess?

19 A Correct.

20 Q And in Camaguey at that time, was any of the

21 sugar cane harvested mechanically?

22 A No.

23 Q How was the rice harvested?

24 A Mechanically.

25 Q Is rice harvested in the EAA mechanically?

42ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes.

2 Q Is rice harvested anywhere in the United

3 States by hand? Probably not.

4 A I don't think so.

5 Q I think only in Southeast Asia, probably.

6 Your course of instruction, your Master's, did that

7 include courses in processing of agricultural products

8 after harvesting?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Did any of those directly relate to the

11 processing of sugar cane after harvest?

12 A Yes.

13 Q How about rice?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Up through 1959 in Cuba, had you had any

16 involvement at any time in the processing of those

17 products after harvest?

18 A No.

19 Q What was the Point IV Program to establish a

20 pasture experimental station that you reference in your

21 resume?

22 A The American -- he will give help to the

23 Latin American countries by which those countries would

24 open another door to improve the agriculture in general,

25 and they provide that open door in the form of equipment

43ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 and technicians.

2 Q Where was the pasture experimental station

3 that you were involved in?

4 A In Camaguey.

5 Q Did that deal with specific crops or types

6 of agriculture?

7 A It specifically was for pasture.

8 Q So it was in cattle?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And then there came a time in 1962 when you

11 relocated to the United States?

12 A In 1962.

13 Q And you more or less were immediately

14 employed by New Hope Sugar Company?

15 A Yes.

16 Q That was the first company within the EAA

17 that you became associated with after coming to the

18 United States?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Who hired you for your work with that

21 company?

22 A Alfonso Fanjul.

23 Q What were your initial duties with New Hope

24 Sugar?

25 A I was a foreman.

44ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Was that field work, essentially field

2 supervision?

3 A Primarily field supervision.

4 Q How long were you in that position?

5 A Year and a half.

6 Q As a field supervisor, what was the actual

7 nature of your duties on a day-to-day basis? What did

8 you do for them?

9 A All was related to the agriculture.

10 Q At that time was that strictly with regard

11 to growing sugar cane?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Were they growing rice at that time as well?

14 A No.

15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form of

16 "they."

17 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'm referring to

18 the company, New Hope Sugar Company. I guess

19 you're right. We need to be fairly specific. A

20 lot of these names are fairly similar.

21 Q There's a New Hope Sugar Company, a New Hope

22 Sugar Co-op, and a New Hope South -- correct? --

23 A Correct.

24 Q -- all three different companies?

25 In 1964 you became general manager of New

45ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Hope Sugar Company?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q How did your duties change in 1964 to the

4 present? Your resume, on the second page, indicates that

5 you were still general manager of New Hope Sugar Company;

6 is that correct?

7 A No.

8 Q Okay. You're a vice-president of New Hope

9 Sugar Company now; correct?

10 A Correct.

11 Q Who is the general manager now of New Hope

12 Sugar Company?

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

14 THE WITNESS: I don't think the Sugar

15 Company have a general manager now.

16 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Is it your

17 understanding the job is vacant, or they've reorganized,

18 and that job doesn't exist anymore?

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

20 THE WITNESS: New Hope Sugar Company is

21 part of the New Hope Sugar Co-op, and the Sugar

22 Farms Co-op is the one that do the farming for

23 New Hope Sugar Company.

24 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. I should

25 make a flow chart. The Sugar Co-op does the farming for

46ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 New Hope Sugar Company?

2 A Let me clarify. The Sugar Farms Co-op --

3 Q Sugar Farms Co-op -- New Hope Sugar Company

4 of which you're vice-president has a business arrangement

5 with New Hope Sugar Farms Co-op for the farm's co-op to

6 do the actual farming?

7 A With Sugar Farms Co-op, not New Hope Sugar;

8 Sugar Farms.

9 Q No "co-op"?

10 A "Sugar," not "New Hope Farms Co-op."

11 Q So there are not three New Hope businesses?

12 There's two? There's New Hope South, and there is New

13 Hope Sugar Company, and then there's the Sugar Farms

14 Co-op, which does not have "New Hope South" in front of

15 it?

16 A No.

17 Q That's right?

18 A Can you repeat that again?

19 Q When we first started out, you said that

20 you've been with New Hope Sugar Company for 20 years or

21 so, which seems to match what's on your resume. That

22 still exists, and you're a vice-president of that

23 company?

24 A Yes.

25 Q You also mentioned a New Hope Sugar Co-op,

47ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 but if I understand you now, that's not a correct name?

2 A No. There is existing a New Hope Sugar

3 Co-op and also a Sugar Farms Co-op.

4 Q So there's both?

5 A There are two, two.

6 Q For whom does the Sugar Farms Co-op grow

7 sugar cane?

8 A For several companies.

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the

10 relevance.

11 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Which companies?

12 A New Hope Sugar Company; New Farm, Inc.;

13 South Florida Industry.

14 Q They do that under contract on leased lands?

15 A No. It's a cooperative management.

16 Q Is Sugar Farms Co-op currently growing sugar

17 cane for New Hope South?

18 A No.

19 Q Is it currently growing rice for New Hope

20 South?

21 A No.

22 Q Does it ever grow rice?

23 A The Sugar Farms Co-op grow rice.

24 Q It does? For whom does Sugar Farms Co-op

25 grow the rice?

48ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A For any one of the farms.

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Its irrelevant.

3 THE WITNESS: For any one of the farms

4 they farm for.

5 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How is it

6 determined which of the farms the Sugar Farms Co-op is

7 growing the crop for? Is that done by field, whoever

8 controls the field?

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of the

10 question.

11 THE WITNESS: I really don't understand

12 exactly your question, what you are aiming to.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: In a given crop

14 year, does Sugar Farms Co-op grow crops for more than one

15 company?

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the

17 relevance of the question.

18 THE WITNESS: Every year the Sugar Farms

19 Co-op do the farming operation for several of the

20 companies that always do that same thing.

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How do you figure

22 out or how can you tell which company a particular field

23 is being grown for if Sugar Farms Co-op is growing on 50

24 or 100 fields for several different companies? How do

25 you know which product from a particular field belongs or

49ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 is for the benefit of New Hope South or South Florida

2 Industries or New Farm, Incorporated? How do you tell

3 which one is which?

4 A They know which one's fields are each

5 company.

6 Q Is it because the field is owned by one of

7 those other companies?

8 A Owned or leased.

9 Q Or leased. So it has to do with who

10 controls the field literally --

11 A Correct.

12 Q -- or whose field it is to farm?

13 And they subcontract, if you will, or have

14 the co-op come in, the farm's co-op, and actually do the

15 work for them?

16 A Correct.

17 Q And none of that work of Sugar Farms Co-op

18 is currently being done for New Hope South?

19 A No.

20 Q New Hope South has been in existence about

21 seven or eight years. Has Sugar Farms Co-op ever farmed

22 for New Hope South?

23 A No.

24 Q New Hope South always farms for itself?

25 A Correct.

50ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Under the management or general management

2 direction of Calixto Garcia?

3 A Correct.

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Would this be a good spot

5 for a break?

6 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Sure.

7 (Recess.)

8 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Mr. Recio, your

9 resume also lists, from 1975 to the present, that you

10 were general manager for Osceola Farms; is that correct?

11 Are you the general manager there as well as

12 vice-president?

13 A No, no. This is an old resume.

14 Q I just wanted to kind of update it by asking

15 these questions so we're clear. With regard to the third

16 page, if you want to follow along, it indicates 1969 to

17 present, vice-president of New Hope Sugar Company. That

18 is still correct?

19 A Correct.

20 Q And 1969 to present, vice-president of

21 Florida Atlantic Land Corporation; is that correct?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q What is Florida Atlantic Land Corporation?

24 A It's a landowner.

25 Q Who's the president of Florida Atlantic Land

51ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Corporation?

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the relevance.

3 THE WITNESS: Alfonso -- Jose Fanjul.

4 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: And Alfonso Fanjul

5 is the chairman?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Are you a director of the Florida Atlantic

8 Land Corporation as well as an officer?

9 A Yes.

10 Q I don't think we listed that earlier. If we

11 did, I missed it. Does it engage itself in any farming

12 within the EAA?

13 A Yes.

14 Q What type of farming activities does Florida

15 Atlantic Land Corporation engage in?

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

17 THE WITNESS: Primarily sugar cane.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How much land does

19 Florida Atlantic farm in the EAA?

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

21 relevance.

22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.

23 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How about New Hope

24 Sugar Corporation? Is its land separate from New Hope

25 South's land?

52ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes.

2 Q How much land does New Hope Sugar

3 Corporation farm in the EAA?

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

5 THE WITNESS: I don't remember exactly.

6 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you remember,

7 approximately, with regard to any of the corporations for

8 which you are the agricultural production overseer other

9 than New Hope South, which you already told us was about

10 27,000 acres, how much land each farms?

11 A No. I cannot say that.

12 Q How about collectively? Overall in the EAA,

13 how much land are you the production overseer for?

14 A I hate to give you a number that might not

15 be correct.

16 Q I understand it would only be your best

17 estimate. I don't expect you to be down to the acre. It

18 probably changes occasionally. Can you give me an

19 estimation by percentage of sugar cane land in the EAA or

20 by just total acreage, approximately?

21 A Percentage of what?

22 Q Well, would you agree that this past harvest

23 season about 429,000 acres in the EAA were planted in

24 sugar cane and harvested? Does that sound about right?

25 A I don't know. I haven't checked the

53ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 figures. For old Everglades Agricultural Area on a

2 percentage, I don't know.

3 Q Would it be more than half?

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form.

5 Would what be more than half?

6 THE WITNESS: A lot less, I guess.

7 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: A little less?

8 A A lot less.

9 Q Less than a quarter? Less than 100,000

10 acres?

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

12 form. It's unspecified as to what is being

13 referred to.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

15 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Let me be sure I

16 understand. You're telling me that Okeelanta, New Hope

17 Sugar, South Florida Industry, New Hope South, Sugar

18 Farms Co-op, Florida Atlantic Land Corporation, and

19 Osceola Farms -- together -- total less than 100,000

20 acres of farmland in the EAA?

21 A By memory --

22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form.

23 THE WITNESS: By memory, I cannot answer

24 that question.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You said that

54ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Mr. Garcia consults with you in making decisions on what

2 to plant for Osceola Farms; is that correct?

3 A No.

4 Q He doesn't?

5 A He does it for New Hope South.

6 Q I'm sorry. I have him -- he's with New Hope

7 South. Do each of those companies that I just mentioned

8 by name have a manager who does the same thing as

9 Mr. Garcia does for New Hope South?

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the

11 relevance of the question.

12 THE WITNESS: Not exactly.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Who makes the

14 decisions for the other companies as to what they will

15 plant -- what they will plant in rice, what they will

16 leave fallow -- in any given year?

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

18 relevance.

19 THE WITNESS: The New Hope Sugar -- excuse

20 me. The Sugar Farms Co-op do the decision for

21 the farms that they do farming for.

22 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Sugar Farms Co-op

23 makes the decisions, then, for New Hope Sugar?

24 A Yes.

25 Q For South Florida Industries?

55ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

2 relevance.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Which or what

5 other companies does Sugar Farmers Co-op -- Sugar Farms

6 Co-op also farm other than those two, other than New Hope

7 Sugar and South Florida Industries?

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

9 relevance.

10 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Because I only got

11 two earlier.

12 THE WITNESS: Florida Atlantic.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Florida Atlantic

14 Land Company. So just for those three? Are you involved

15 in that decision?

16 A Which decision?

17 Q The decision by Sugar Farms Co-op as to what

18 to grow on which land in any given season?

19 A Up to a point, yes.

20 Q And with whom do you consult to reach those

21 decisions?

22 A With the Sugar Farms Co-op manager.

23 Q Who is that?

24 A Eduardo Recio.

25 Q Can you spell that last name?

56ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A R-e-c-i-o.

2 Q Any relation?

3 A Son.

4 Q It's not that big a surprise, frankly. Your

5 son listens to you, doesn't he?

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

7 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: So you and your

8 son decide in consultation what ought to be grown by

9 Sugar Farms Co-op on the lands owned or controlled by New

10 Hope Sugar, South Florida Industries, and Florida

11 Atlantic Land Company.

12 Does anyone else participate in that

13 decision with you and your son?

14 A No.

15 Q I know I didn't ask with regard to Sugar

16 Farms Co-op. Approximately how much land does Sugar

17 Farms Co-op actually farm for those three companies that

18 I just mentioned?

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form.

20 There's no limitation as to what period of time

21 you're referring to, and I'll further object to

22 the relevance.

23 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: That's fine.

24 Q How long has Sugar Farms Co-op existed?

25 A Over ten years.

57ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Have you been associated with Sugar Farms

2 Co-op that entire time?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Over that ten-year period, if you can, can

5 you tell me how much land has been farmed by that

6 organization, the Sugar Farms Co-op?

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

8 THE WITNESS: It might have changed

9 because part of those lands might be leased land

10 and not been able to renew the lease. So it's

11 not a --

12 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Are they farming

13 more now, in this current crop year, than they did ten

14 years ago?

15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

16 relevance.

17 THE WITNESS: More or less the same.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. And do you

19 have an estimate of what that total would be,

20 approximately?

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to

22 relevance.

23 THE WITNESS: Around 15,000.

24 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How much of that

25 in any given year normally would be in sugar cane?

58ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A It varies from year to year, from 70 percent

2 to 80 percent.

3 Q That 70-to-80-percent number, you mentioned

4 it earlier with regard to New Hope South, I think. Is

5 that more or less the norm within the sugar industry in

6 the EAA?

7 A Yes.

8 Q What dictates that as being the norm? Why

9 70 to 80 percent? Is there a reason for that

10 agriculturally?

11 A You have to replant the sugar cane every

12 more or less three years.

13 Q When you plant sugar cane or seed cane -- is

14 that what you call it? "Seed cane"?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q -- how long is it before you get your first

17 crop in the seed cane?

18 A Over a year.

19 Q And what time of the year or what months do

20 you initially put out your seed cane?

21 A From October to January.

22 Q And when will that be harvested, then, if

23 you put it out, say, in January?

24 A January of the following year.

25 Q When it's harvested -- New Hope South, do

59ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 they harvest mechanically or by hand?

2 A Up to this year, by both.

3 Q What will be the practice hereafter, if you

4 know?

5 A I don't know.

6 Q How much of the 27,000 acres is done

7 mechanically by New Hope South?

8 A Approximately 50 percent.

9 Q And where do you acquire the laborers to

10 harvest the plantations by hand?

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to

12 relevance.

13 THE WITNESS: The farming operation --

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: Go ahead. I'm sorry.

15 THE WITNESS: The farming operation do not

16 do the harvesting. The harvesting being done by

17 the sugar mills.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Which sugar mills

19 harvest the property farmed by New Hope South?

20 A Okeelanta and Atlantic.

21 Q Is Atlantic sugar mill owned by Florida

22 Atlantic Land Corporation?

23 A No.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the

25 relevance of the question.

60ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Who owns the Atlantic sugar mill?

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the relevance.

3 THE WITNESS: Different owners, different

4 farmers.

5 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Is it a

6 cooperative?

7 A No.

8 Q And the other mill that you mentioned was

9 the Okeelanta mill?

10 A Correct.

11 Q Who owns the Okeelanta mill?

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

13 relevance.

14 THE WITNESS: New Hope Sugar Co-op.

15 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: And that's

16 separate from Sugar Farms Co-op?

17 A Correct.

18 Q You're a vice-president of New Hope Sugar

19 Co-op; correct?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you participate in the decision over how

22 much of New Hope South's 27,000 acres will be harvested

23 by Okeelanta and how much by Atlantic?

24 A Yes.

25 Q How do you make that decision?

61ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A By distributing the cane accordingly to the

2 amount of cane that you have.

3 Q Do you request bids from the two mills --

4 A No.

5 Q -- to get the best price you can for the

6 sugar cane that you've grown?

7 A No.

8 Q Is the reason that you don't request bids

9 because both of those mills are owned by the same

10 essential group that owns New Hope South?

11 A Not exactly.

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the

13 relevance of the question.

14 THE WITNESS: Not exactly.

15 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you ever

16 solicit bids from other sugar mills within the EAA to see

17 if they would be interested in harvesting the cane on

18 lands farmed by New Hope South?

19 A It is not a custom in the area to solicit

20 bids for grinding cane.

21 Q Is New Hope South under long-term contract

22 to supply its sugar cane to either of those mills,

23 Okeelanta or Atlantic?

24 A Yes.

25 Q What is the duration of those contracts?

62ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A I don't remember.

2 Q Did you participate in negotiation of those

3 contracts?

4 A No.

5 Q Who would have the responsibility for that

6 and would be most knowledgeable about it?

7 A I don't know that it would be a single

8 person or more than one person.

9 Q You're a director of every one of these

10 corporations, aren't you?

11 A Yes.

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form as

13 to "every one of these corporations."

14 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. If you'd

15 like me to give you the litany, I certainly will.

16 Q You are a director of New Hope Sugar

17 Company, Sugar Farms Co-op, Flo-Sun, New Hope Sugar

18 Co-op, Okeelanta, South Florida Industries, Osceola

19 Farms -- I know I missed one -- Florida Atlantic Land

20 Corporation. You're a director of every one of those

21 companies, are you not?

22 A Yes.

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

24 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You're an officer

25 of every one of those corporations, are you not?

63ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

2 relevance.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you participate

5 in the meetings of the boards of directors of those

6 corporations?

7 A Yes.

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection as to

9 relevance.

10 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Have you ever

11 participated in the approval of contracts for the

12 supplying of the raw cane or the harvesting of raw cane

13 on New Hope South's lands by Okeelanta and Atlantic sugar

14 mills?

15 A Could you repeat that question?

16 Q Have you ever participated in discussions by

17 the boards, the boards of directors of those

18 corporations, of the contracts for the supplying or for

19 the harvesting of New Hope South's lands by Okeelanta and

20 Atlantic?

21 A No, by the board.

22 Q Do you know who signs those contracts?

23 A No.

24 Q Have you ever seen the contracts?

25 A No.

64ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Do you know when they were last negotiated?

2 A No.

3 Q Do you know who does the negotiations?

4 A Donald Carson.

5 Q Is Mr. Carson a director of New Hope South?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is he an officer of New Hope South?

8 A Yes.

9 Q What is his title?

10 A Executive vice-president.

11 Q Is he an officer of Okeelanta?

12 A Yes.

13 Q What is his title with Okeelanta?

14 A Executive vice-president.

15 Q Is he an officer of Atlantic?

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

17 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Is it Florida

18 Atlantic that owns the mill --

19 A No.

20 Q -- Atlantic sugar mill?

21 Is he a director of the Atlantic sugar mill?

22 A Yes.

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to relevance of

24 this line of questioning.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Is he an officer

65ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 of the Atlantic sugar mill?

2 A No.

3 Q He's not the executive vice-president there?

4 A No.

5 Q When he negotiates these contracts, which

6 side is he representing if he is a director and an

7 officer of both Okeelanta and New Hope South?

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the extent

9 it calls for a legal conclusion --

10 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: If you know.

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- and to the relevance.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What is the

14 Florida Society of Sugar Cane Technologists?

15 A Florida --

16 Q Association of Sugar Cane Technologists.

17 A That's the same group that we graduate from

18 Havana University and have a financial association here.

19 Q It's kind of the old boys' network from the

20 university?

21 A Correct.

22 Q How many members are there?

23 A I really don't know exactly how many, but

24 over 60 or 80.

25 Q Are they all within the EAA, or are they

66ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 also elsewhere in the State of Florida?

2 A No. They are scattered all around the

3 world.

4 Q Do you have a position with the Florida

5 Sugar Cane League?

6 A Yes.

7 Q What is your position with the league?

8 A Director.

9 Q Are you also an officer of the league?

10 A No.

11 Q What are your duties as a director of the

12 Florida Sugar Cane League?

13 A To assist at board of directors meetings.

14 Q How many directors are there?

15 A Ten or eleven. I don't know exactly.

16 Q How did you happen to achieve that position,

17 if you know? How did you come to be a director of the

18 league, I guess, is a better way to put it.

19 A Each one of the companies designates a

20 person that are going to be a director representing that

21 company.

22 Q Which company designated you to be a

23 director?

24 A Osceola Farms Company.

25 Q The other companies that you are also a

67ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 director of, does each of those companies have a director

2 on the board of directors of the Florida Sugar Cane

3 League?

4 A Atlantic and Okeelanta Corporation.

5 Q Who is the director on behalf of Atlantic?

6 A Francisco Ponce.

7 Q P-o-n-c-e?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And who is the director on behalf of

10 Okeelanta?

11 A Donald Carson.

12 Q Who is the current chairman of the board of

13 directors?

14 A In the Florida Sugar Cane League?

15 Q Yes.

16 A Nelson Fairbanks.

17 Q Do you know when his term expires?

18 A No.

19 Q Who is the chief executive officer of the

20 league, the chief executive officer?

21 A Rackley, Andrew Rackley.

22 Q What is the Sugar Cane Seminars Advisory

23 Committee of the Florida Cooperative Extension Service,

24 University of Florida?

25 A They have a group of farmers being invited

68ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 to be advisors there.

2 Q Who else serves as a member of that advisory

3 committee?

4 A I don't remember. That was long time ago.

5 Q So it's no longer in existence?

6 A At least I am not belong.

7 Q With regard to the organizations I've

8 already discussed, you are still a member of the Sugar

9 Cane Technologists?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And you're obviously still with the Florida

12 Sugar Cane League as a director. What is the Sugar Cane

13 Variety Committee of Florida?

14 A There is a committee been formed by the

15 experimental station, IFAS, USDA, and the University of

16 Florida that have a committee of the farmers of the area

17 that are helped in selecting varieties.

18 Q Do you give advice or convey requests to the

19 two developmental stations regarding what type of factors

20 or permutations would be developed into sugar cane

21 varieties to meet current and future needs in the EAA?

22 A Yes.

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form.

24 During what time frame?

25 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I think I said

69ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 "current and future."

2 Q Who else serves on that committee? How

3 large is it?

4 A As I said before, I don't remember because I

5 am not anymore on this committee for quite some years.

6 Q Oh, you're not on this one either?

7 A No.

8 Q During what years were you on the Sugar Cane

9 Variety Committee, if you recall?

10 A Last time I was, it was five, six years ago.

11 Q How long has it been since you were on the

12 Sugar Cane Seminars Advisory Committee for the extension

13 service?

14 A I am not anymore. I used to be seven, eight

15 years ago.

16 Q How about the State of Florida Commodity

17 Growth Commission on Sugar Cane? Do you remember that?

18 It's about the middle of your list.

19 A That was a committee that was created at one

20 time, and we met for about a year, trying to predict what

21 would be the future of the Florida agriculture.

22 Q How long ago did that meet?

23 A I don't have a good memory. It seems to me

24 it was about eight or ten years ago.

25 Q Did you issue a report?

70ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A No.

2 Q Who convened the committee? Who established

3 it?

4 A That was called by the University of

5 Florida.

6 Q Do you know if they ever produced any report

7 or any projections based on the insight that the

8 committee members had?

9 A I'm sure that they produced, but I don't

10 remember even seeing the final report.

11 Q So you don't know if you were right or not?

12 A Right.

13 Q Do you remember what your projections were,

14 what you thought the industry --

15 A No.

16 Q -- would do?

17 A No.

18 Q Are you familiar with the Department of

19 Agriculture's Sugar and Sweetener Report that does more

20 or less the same thing annually?

21 A No.

22 Q If you'd look at the last four organizations

23 on your list there on page 3 of your resume, starting

24 where it says "President, Agricultural Engineering

25 Association," those all appear to be from your time in

71ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Cuba. Are any of those current organizations?

2 A No.

3 Q On the first page of Exhibit 2, the document

4 you gave me, there is a handwritten line at the end,

5 which didn't copy very well, I'm afraid, on mine. Could

6 you tell me what that says?

7 A It said former director of the Suburban

8 Bank.

9 Q When were you a director of Suburban Bank?

10 A I resigned in -- about five years or six

11 years ago.

12 Q Where was that bank located?

13 A Lake Worth, Florida.

14 Q Were you an officer of the bank as well as a

15 director?

16 A No.

17 Q And the next line, can you read the rest of

18 the handwriting?

19 A Director of the Florida Fruits and

20 Vegetables Association.

21 Q Are you currently a director of the FFV?

22 A I just started, have not yet been in a

23 single meeting.

24 Q Does New Hope South grow any vegetables?

25 A No.

72ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Does Okeelanta?

2 A No.

3 Q Does South Florida Industry?

4 A Could you define "vegetables" with respect

5 to that question? It's a very broad aspect.

6 Q Okay.

7 A Sugar cane is a vegetable.

8 Q With the exception of sugar cane and rice,

9 do any of the companies for which you are an officer or a

10 director grow other crops in EAA?

11 A Yes.

12 Q What crops?

13 A Sweet corn.

14 Q Which of the organizations or companies grow

15 sweet corn?

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

17 THE WITNESS: Okeelanta and New Hope.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Which New Hope?

19 A Sugar Co-op.

20 Q New Hope Sugar Co-op and Okeelanta grow

21 sweet corn. How much acreage do those two corporations

22 together have in sweet corn in a given crop year?

23 A It varies from year to year.

24 Q On the average, is it a big operation?

25 A No.

73ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Where are the fields they use for sweet corn

2 growth?

3 A Part of the cane rotation fields.

4 Q And that's grown rather than rice?

5 A Yes.

6 Q What factors would you consider in selecting

7 sweet corn as a rotational crop instead of rice?

8 A I don't know any factors.

9 Q Does the soil make any difference?

10 A No.

11 Q How about the growing season?

12 A Growing season is more or less the same.

13 Q When you grow rice and/or sweet corn, do you

14 get one or two crops in a --

15 A With the sweet corn, it's only one crop,

16 what is called a "spring crop." In rice, part of the

17 rice has been ratooned to get a second cut out of the

18 same planting.

19 Q After this second planting or after you

20 harvest the ratoon, do you have to plow under or do

21 anything to prepare the field for subsequent sugar cane

22 planting?

23 A Yes, you have to prepare the land.

24 Q What exactly needs to be done after a rice

25 crop to prepare the land?

74ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Practically, discing, harrowing.

2 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: D-i-s-c-i-n-g.

3 Q You don't have to re-level after?

4 A No.

5 Q Are the water demands for the growth of corn

6 different from the growth of a rice crop?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Which requires greater water quantities?

9 A Rice.

10 Q During the growth of the rice crop, are the

11 fields kept substantially flooded?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Is sweet corn a water-tolerant species in

14 terms of standing water on its roots during the growth

15 period?

16 A No.

17 Q How long can corn withstand standing water

18 without loss of the crop?

19 A I'm not an expert in growing corn.

20 Q You have somebody else who deals with the

21 corn?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q Who's your corn specialist?

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form as

25 to "your" without reference as to who the

75ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 question refers to.

2 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: With regard to the

3 companies that you are an officer and director of that

4 engage in agricultural activities in the EAA, to whom do

5 they turn or upon whom do they rely to direct their

6 operations in the growth of sweet corn?

7 A We lease that land for sweet-corn growers.

8 Q You lease it out to an independent grower?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Do you lease out the lands on which rice is

11 going to be grown?

12 A No.

13 Q You grow that? The companies with which

14 you're associated grow the rice to their own benefit --

15 A Correct.

16 Q -- or for themselves, by themselves?

17 On your resume there is a line, a partial

18 line, that's struck out that says "the Florida Molasses

19 Exchange." Were you at one time associated with the

20 Florida Molasses Exchange?

21 A That was a mistake put in there.

22 Q So you've never been associated with the

23 Florida Molasses Exchange?

24 A I've never been a director of the Florida

25 Molasses Exchange.

76ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Have you ever been an officer of the

2 exchange?

3 A No.

4 Q Do you deal with the Molasses Exchange?

5 A But when I was a manager of Osceola, I have

6 to deal with because they are the ones that sell the

7 molasses.

8 Q There is a listing as well for Atlantic

9 Sugar Association, which is a slightly different name

10 than Atlantic Land Company, which is listed in your

11 resume further in. Is the Florida Atlantic Land

12 Corporation the same thing as Atlantic Sugar Association?

13 A No.

14 Q What is the Atlantic Sugar Association?

15 A The owner of the Atlantic sugar mill.

16 Q What's your position with the Atlantic Sugar

17 Association?

18 A I'm a director.

19 Q Are you an officer of that?

20 A I'm a vice-president.

21 Q Okay. Who's the president of the Atlantic

22 Sugar Association?

23 A Francisco Ponce.

24 Q And who is the chairman of the board of

25 Atlantic Sugar Association?

77ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Francisco Ponce.

2 Q In terms of distance, how far are the two

3 parcels on the north New River Canal farmed by New Hope

4 South from the two sugar mills that harvest its crops,

5 its sugar cane crops?

6 A More or less the same distance from each

7 one.

8 Q Do the mills each harvest one of the two

9 units?

10 A All depends. This year practically one mill

11 harvest one unit and another unit, another one.

12 Q Is that just for convenience, or is there

13 some agricultural concern that leads it to be broken out

14 that way?

15 A Convenience and by distance.

16 Q The parcel to the east of the canal, which

17 mill does that go to?

18 A Atlantic.

19 Q And approximately how far is the middle of

20 that parcel from Atlantic?

21 A I don't -- I cannot answer that question.

22 Q If not in distance, can you answer it in

23 terms of the commuting time to move a load of harvested

24 cane?

25 A I have no experience in that either.

78ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Can you tell me, with regard to the parcel

2 to the west of the New River Canal that goes to

3 Okeelanta --

4 A Okeelanta.

5 Q -- how far that parcel is from Okeelanta?

6 A I don't know exactly.

7 Q But they're roughly equal distances, the two

8 parcels?

9 A Roughly.

10 Q In your experience, how far can sugar cane

11 be economically transported from the field harvest site

12 to the mill?

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection. Lacks basis

14 as to the witness's experience in that area.

15 THE WITNESS: Me, I don't participate in

16 any decision to determine which is the maximum

17 distance allowed to economically do the transfer.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Who would deal

19 with those type of issues for New Hope South?

20 A I don't think it's an issue that need to be

21 dealt with.

22 Q Is that because the mills are associated

23 with the same ownership group as New Hope South itself?

24 A You need a home to grind your cane, and you

25 send it to the one of the homes that you are able to do

79ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 it.

2 Q Is there a length of time after harvest in

3 which you get the optimum return from your raw sugar cane

4 in processing?

5 A Could you be more specific in your question?

6 Q Is there an outside limit in time beyond

7 which you don't want to allow the cane to be harvested

8 and not have been processed?

9 A I'm still not understanding your question

10 because --

11 Q Does the cane -- do you lose your production

12 rate from sugar cane if you allow it to sit for too long

13 after being harvested before it's processed?

14 A Yes.

15 Q What is the optimum time or the outside

16 limit beyond which you don't want to go because you begin

17 to lose quality and production in your sugar cane after

18 it's been harvested?

19 A That depends on the weather.

20 Q What does the weather have to do with it?

21 A If it's cold weather or if it's warm

22 weather.

23 Q Which is better in terms of production?

24 Cold weather or warm weather?

25 A To preserve the quality of the cane after

80ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 harvesting? That was your question?

2 Q Yes.

3 A In between that time and processing at the

4 mill, cool weather is better.

5 Q Cool weather. Does New Hope South maintain

6 records reflecting its production rates for the various

7 fields that it has under cultivation in sugar cane?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And have you produced those in response to

10 my Notice of Deposition?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Does New Hope South fertilize its crops to

13 promote growth?

14 A Yes.

15 Q In general terms -- and we'll look at the

16 documents this afternoon -- what fertilizers are placed

17 on sugar cane to enhance its growth and productivity?

18 A By following the recommendation by IFAS

19 based on the soil test.

20 Q How often is the soil tested to determine

21 what fertilizers to place on the crop?

22 A Every time you plant it.

23 Q Do you count a ratooning as planting?

24 A No.

25 Q How many harvests does New Hope South get

81ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 from a single seed cane planting?

2 A Three in total.

3 Q Occasionally you get four?

4 A Maybe.

5 Q In the ratoons, does the productivity of the

6 field tend to go down in subsequent ratoons?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Does the productivity of the field in terms

9 of the quality also go down?

10 A What do you mean with quality?

11 Q My first question, when you said, yes, I was

12 sort of driving at productivity in terms of raw cane by

13 tonnage but that's not the only question, is it? I mean

14 you measure productivity not only by your raw tonnage but

15 also by the refined sugar, molasses, and byproducts from

16 a particular tonnage; is that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q You can get high quality out of -- out of

19 equal tonnages, you don't get an equal product; is that

20 correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Because the quantity of the juice that you

23 can produce out of a particular field may vary from field

24 to field over the EAA?

25 A That's right.

82ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q In subsequent ratoons does the quality of a

2 given volume or mass of raw cane harvested go down?

3 A All depends on the time of the year and the

4 variety and the weather conditions.

5 Q Okay. So you could get the same quality out

6 of subsequent ratoons?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Would you expect to get the same quantity

9 out of subsequent ratoons?

10 A No.

11 Q That will almost invariably go down year to

12 year?

13 A Correct.

14 Q How do you decide when it is not appropriate

15 to allow a ratoon, that you should plow it under and

16 start over or rotate to rice or do something else with

17 that field rather than allow it to ratoon?

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the form

19 of the question to the extent it's a compound

20 question.

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you understand

22 the question, Mr. Recio?

23 A I think I understand your question, and your

24 question cannot be answered in a simple answer.

25 Q I didn't think the answer would be simple,

83ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 but go ahead and give me the complex answer.

2 A There is a lot of factors that you have to

3 analyze.

4 Q What factors?

5 A Productivity is the best one.

6 Q Productivity in terms of quality of the

7 juice or the quantity of raw sugar cane harvested?

8 A Primarily quantity.

9 Q Why is quantity more important than quality

10 of the juice extracted from a given mass of the sugar

11 cane, raw cane?

12 A Quantity is the primary factor.

13 Q Why?

14 A Because it's the mass product that you're

15 moving.

16 Q Does New Hope South get paid by the mills

17 based on the quantity of processed sugar cane delivered

18 or the quantity delivered to the mill, or does it get

19 paid based on some other factor?

20 A By the quantity being multiplied by the

21 quality.

22 Q Have you ever had instances, during your

23 direction and oversight of the production of New Hope

24 South, where, in fact, the quality was a more important

25 factor that quantity coming out of the field?

84ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A I consider both are important.

2 Q So, then, do you consider quality in your

3 decision as to whether or not to allow a ratooning in a

4 particular field?

5 A Whether to allow the ratooning is more

6 quantity than quality.

7 Q What other factors in addition to the

8 quantity do you consider in that decision to allow or not

9 to allow a ratooning?

10 A To maintain in a stable production.

11 Q Does that mean that you balance the number

12 of first ratoons and second ratoons and maybe thirds

13 against first production from seed cane to balance all of

14 your fields for a stable year-to-year production?

15 A We want to stabilize the production.

16 Q Year to year?

17 A Year to year.

18 Q And that's done essentially on a three- to

19 four-year cycle?

20 A Correct.

21 Q So would I be correct, then, in

22 understanding that in any given year, about 20 percent of

23 the land has just been planted in seed cane; 20 percent

24 would be on first ratoon; 20 percent on second;

25 20 percent maybe on third; and then your balance of

85ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 20 percent is in rice or fallow? That's sort of accounts

2 for your land at New Hope South?

3 A No. Let me help you a little bit in that

4 regard.

5 Q Please.

6 A If you are in a three-year rotation program,

7 you have to plant at 25 percent.

8 Q Okay. I was using a four-year.

9 A You have 25 percent in first ratoon; 25

10 percent, second ratoon; and 25 percent in rotation.

11 Q What you're calling "first ratoon," that's

12 the first growth from the seed cane?

13 A Correct.

14 Q And then that's about 75 to 80 percent, and

15 the balance is as we discussed earlier.

16 Are you generally familiar, because of your

17 oversight of the production of those six or eight

18 corporations we've been talking about or business

19 entities, of the rates of compensation paid by the mills

20 for sugar cane?

21 A It change from year to year, depending on

22 the sugar price.

23 Q What sugar price is that based on, in your

24 understanding?

25 A The base price of the sugar, the raw sugar

86ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 that has been sold.

2 Q Is that through the -- what's the name of

3 the organization that markets sugar out of the Port of

4 Palm Beach?

5 A The Florida Sugar Marketing Association.

6 Q Is New Hope South a member of that

7 association?

8 A No.

9 Q How does New Hope South market its sugar?

10 A The farms process the sugar at the sugar

11 mill, and the sugar mill is the one who sell the sugar

12 through the association.

13 Q So once the sugar, the raw sugar, is

14 harvested in the field by the farms -- let me back that

15 up. New Hope South contracts with the two mills for the

16 mills to harvest the land --

17 A Uh-huh, yes.

18 Q -- that has been cultivated by New Hope

19 South. New Hope South cultivates its own land. It does

20 not have the farms come in and do it for them --

21 A No.

22 Q -- the Sugar Farms Co-op --

23 A No.

24 Q -- correct?

25 When New Hope South contracts with Okeelanta

87ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 and Atlantic to come in and harvest, is that the end of

2 it for New Hope South? They're paid on the basis of the

3 return at the mill, on the sugar based on quantity and

4 quality, and they're done? They're out of it?

5 A Well, they have to wait until the mill sell

6 the sugar to be able to get the money back.

7 Q At the time the harvest occurs, does New

8 Hope South already know what it's going to be paid?

9 A No.

10 Q Or is that dependent on the ultimate price

11 that the mill gets?

12 A That depends on the ultimate price that the

13 mill gets.

14 Q Is that formula for how that is done spelled

15 out in the contracts between the Okeelanta and Atlantic

16 mills and New Hope South.

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection as to relevance.

18 THE WITNESS: The most common practice in

19 the area is to liquidate what is so-called fair

20 price determination by the USDA.

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Can you explain

22 what you mean by that or how that process works?

23 A You are supposed to be paid as a farmer for

24 your net standard ton.

25 Q What is a net standard ton?

88ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Your gross ton less your trash give you your

2 net ton. That net ton multiplied by a factor depending

3 on the quality of the juice gives you your standard ton.

4 Q And that would vary from year to year,

5 obviously.

6 A That formula?

7 Q Yes. I mean the quality will vary -- the

8 result varies, not the formulas?

9 A The result varies, not the formula.

10 Q And that formula cannot be applied until

11 after the mill has processed the raw sugar to see what

12 the quality is --

13 A No.

14 Q -- to factor that in --

15 A No.

16 Q -- and have sold it to see what price they

17 get?

18 A The quality has been determined by the

19 analysis of the cane coming into the mill, and they have

20 to wait until the mill sell the sugar to know which price

21 the sugar was sold.

22 Q When you analyze your fields to see if

23 you're going to allow a ratooning crop to grow or to do

24 something else with the fields, do you consider the

25 quality ever as the sole driving factor of the product?

89ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A No. Basically, as I say before, we are

2 trying to keep the farming in a three-year rotation

3 program in which way you balance your production in a

4 steady way year after year.

5 Q In doing that, are there particular fields

6 that are never rotated into rice or allowed to lie fallow

7 so that you go from, say, a second ratooning, and you

8 plant seed cane again?

9 A Yes.

10 Q How do you identify those fields? What

11 makes them different from the ones you put into rice and

12 flood or allow to lay fallow?

13 A Try to maximize your total production. It's

14 where you put back into production some fields, not all

15 of them.

16 Q So are there, then, some fields that are

17 always in sugar cane that you have never rotated crops or

18 allowed to lie fallow?

19 A Not in the same location.

20 Q So every field eventually is going to be

21 rotated?

22 A Yes.

23 Q In following the recommendations of IFAS,

24 I-F-A-S, all caps, regarding fertilization of the sugar

25 cane crops, how do you or where do you have your tests

90ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 conducted of the soil to determine what to put on the

2 crop or the field?

3 A IFAS laboratory.

4 Q You use their lab and that's in?

5 A The Bell Glade experimental station.

6 Q You stated earlier that you do that at the

7 time of the initial planting of your seed cane?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Is that before the seed cane goes in or

10 after?

11 A Before.

12 Q Do you ever retest after the first harvest?

13 A Occasionally for the ratoon.

14 Q How often or what -- strike that.

15 What would cause you to retest the field

16 after the first harvest prior to the next ratoon to

17 determine what might be needed?

18 A In some instance the IFAS gives you a

19 recommendation only for the plant cane for the following

20 ratoons without having to resubmit the soil test, and on

21 some occasion, we submit the soil test back just to

22 reconfirm that that is the correct recommendation.

23 Q Based on the recommendations you've seen

24 from your IFAS soil tests over the last eight years at

25 New Hope South, what type of fertilizers are normally put

91ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 on the fields at New Hope South?

2 A It varies from field to field.

3 Q What substances are customarily put out? I

4 understand quantities and concentrations may vary, but

5 aren't there common substances that are placed on the

6 field?

7 A Primarily phosphorus and potash.

8 Q In the reports you get, is the symbol for

9 potash a "K"?

10 A K2O.

11 Q What is the symbol for phosphorus?

12 A P2O5.

13 Q What does the "2O5" signify?

14 A It's a chemical formula. It's not exactly

15 phosphorus. It's an oxide phosphorus.

16 Q P2O5, is that the same thing as the ortho

17 phosphorus or soluble reactive phosphorus? Are you

18 familiar with those terms?

19 A Is this soluble --

20 Q Soluble reactive phosphorus --

21 A Right.

22 Q -- or water soluble phosphorus?

23 A Right.

24 Q Is that what P2O5 is?

25 A I understand that.

92ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q When New Hope South gets this recommendation

2 from IFAS, who actually receives it?

3 A Garcia.

4 Q Does he discuss it with you before he

5 determines what's going to be put on the field?

6 A He consider if it needs to be discussed.

7 Q What is his background to qualify him as a

8 field manager to make those types of decisions?

9 A He have been involved for 30 year on the

10 production of cane in the Glades area, and also, he have

11 the same school background that I have.

12 Q Is he also a graduate of the University of

13 Havana?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Did you know him back there?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Is his degree also in agricultural

18 engineering?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Does he have any particular specialty other

21 than that degree in common with you, for example, in the

22 area of soil chemistry or fertilizers?

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form and

24 use of the term "specialty."

25 THE WITNESS: Not a specialty.

93ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Does New Hope

2 South have any employee who is a particular specialist in

3 fertilization or soil chemistry?

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection to the

5 form and use of the term "specialist."

6 THE WITNESS: New Hope South has their

7 service, the research department of Okeelanta

8 Corporation. It's been offered to all the Okeelanta

9 growers so they can consult with them on any agricultural

10 practice that need to be done.

11 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: When you say the

12 research department of Okeelanta, services are offered to

13 all of the Okeelanta growers, you mean the mill's

14 growers, people that are growing sugar that's going to go

15 to the Okeelanta mill?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Where is that facility located, the research

18 service?

19 A At Okeelanta mill.

20 Q How large is it?

21 A Do you mean "large" in regard to personnel?

22 Q Yes.

23 A Four people.

24 Q Who is the head of that facility?

25 A Dr. Perdomo.

94ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Do you know what his background is?

2 A He is a Ph.D. out of LSU.

3 Q Out of LSU?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And Perdomo is P-e-r-d-o-m-o?

6 A Uh-huh, correct.

7 Q Do you know what his doctorate is in?

8 A I don't know exactly.

9 Q To your knowledge, is the Okeelanta research

10 facility conducting any research on the impact of

11 phosphorus in the EAA?

12 A What do you mean the impact of phosphorus on

13 the EAA?

14 Q Development of any protocols or best

15 management practices for the use of phosphorus

16 fertilizers on sugar cane or rice crops?

17 A Let me put this way. The primarily (sic)

18 function of an agricultural manager in the Glades in our

19 organization has to be to use the less amount of

20 fertilizer because we don't want to throw the money away,

21 and in the case of the sugar cane, it is very dangerous

22 to use a high phosphorus level because that will decrease

23 the quality of your juice.

24 Q Has Okeelanta done any research in that area

25 that they've passed on to New Hope South?

95ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes, probably.

2 Q Do you recall when that was specifically

3 or --

4 A No.

5 Q -- you just have a general sense that

6 they've done that?

7 A (Witness indicates by nodding head up and

8 down.)

9 Q Does the Okeelanta research facility ever do

10 your soil analysis for you?

11 A No.

12 Q Do you ever submit the reports from the IFAS

13 experimental station to Dr. Perdomo or the facility that

14 he heads to be reviewed?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Is that a routine thing, or do you send it

17 only when there's something out of the ordinary?

18 A Routine.

19 Q Have they ever advised you or advised you

20 through Mr. Garcia that they disagreed with the

21 recommendations coming from the IFAS experimental

22 station?

23 A Not basically.

24 Q Have they ever indicated to you that you

25 should fertilize in a manner different from that

96ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 recommended by IFAS?

2 A Yes.

3 Q What reason do they provide you for their

4 recommendation to ignore the recommendation of IFAS and

5 do something different?

6 A I would say not ignore. That's incorrect.

7 Q Okay.

8 A Just to modify. If we consider that they

9 are recommending a high phosphorus level, we might reduce

10 the phosphorus based on the experience that we have in

11 the particular field.

12 Q How often has that happened?

13 A I don't know how often it happens.

14 Q We've been speaking about sugar cane. Do

15 you conduct soil tests in advance of planting a field in

16 rice?

17 A No.

18 Q Why not?

19 A We don't apply fertilizer to rice.

20 Q None whatsoever?

21 A Very small amount in a very shallow muck.

22 We may have to put a little bit of nitrogen in to

23 increase the growth of the rice in the beginning.

24 Q You say in thin muck. Why would you apply

25 additional nitrogen in thin muck?

97ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Experience.

2 Q Do the thicker more extensive muck soils of

3 the EAA have high natural levels of nitrogen?

4 A Not supposed to, but in practice, sometimes

5 it's the case.

6 Q Do you ever apply nitrogen to sugar cane

7 fields?

8 A Not to my knowledge.

9 Q After receiving a recommendation from the

10 IFAS test facility and having it reviewed by Okeelanta,

11 when you make the determination with Mr. Garcia to go

12 ahead and fertilize a particular field for the first

13 planting, the first growth, the first ratoon, how is that

14 fertilizer applied?

15 A It varies. Primarily we are trying to do

16 everything on the drill today. Originally that was

17 broadcast.

18 Q Prior to 1988 -- do you understand what I

19 mean by "banding" the fertilizer?

20 A You can say banded, but more than banded is

21 to put it under the furrow where the planting be.

22 Q When was that practice of putting it in the

23 furrow, if you will, adopted by New Hope South if that's,

24 in fact, how you're doing it now?

25 Q When we acquired New Hope South.

98ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Seven to eight years ago?

2 A Uh-huh.

3 Q Has that practice been uniformly adopted, in

4 your experience, in the EAA?

5 A Let me put it this way. There was a uniform

6 way 30 years ago. Then people started going out of that

7 practice and going to the broadcasting, and it's coming

8 back, back into the drill again.

9 Q If you know, what was the reason for

10 abandoning what you call back in the drill --

11 A Uh-huh.

12 Q -- or what I would refer to as a banding

13 practice?

14 What was the reason for abandoning that

15 practice 30 years ago and going to a broadcast system?

16 A Originally, the fertilizer was delivered in

17 bags and being handled by bags and put on the drill.

18 That practice become obsolete when the fertilizer was

19 started delivery in bulk. To be able to handle the bulk,

20 the spread was better, and in all the experiment that was

21 done at that time, there was no difference in between one

22 or the other.

23 Q The experiments that were done at that time.

24 Do you mean with respect to the effect of the fertilizer

25 on the crop?

99ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Right.

2 Q So your production rates or your return in

3 the fields was not affected by whichever method you used?

4 A No. I personally have been always for

5 putting the fertilizer at planting time in the furrow, in

6 the so-called band --

7 Q Yes.

8 A -- primarily to have a better control of the

9 quantity.

10 But due to at that time you use minor

11 elements in your formula, which is a small amount and

12 where, if I spread it, I will know if I am able to have

13 it where I want it. But that's my personal opinion.

14 Q Is it your opinion as well that the banding

15 or putting it in the furrow by applying it by the drill

16 is more cost-effective?

17 A It cost more.

18 Q It costs more to apply it that way. Do you

19 use less fertilizer that way?

20 A No.

21 Q You're going to use the same amount per acre

22 no matter which method you apply?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Doesn't the broadcast system -- let me

25 rephrase that.

100ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A broadcast system is not as precise in

2 locating the fertilizer where you want it, is it?

3 A No, a difference of opinions.

4 Q Don't you, with a broadcast system, lose --

5 unless the operator is very careful, lose fertilizer onto

6 roadways and drainage ditches --

7 A No.

8 Q -- and places other than on the crop field?

9 A No.

10 Q Never in your experience?

11 A No.

12 Q How do you train your operators to avoid

13 that problem?

14 A First of all, you are in business to make

15 money; so you don't like to waste money, and if you allow

16 an operator to apply fertilizer what you do not need, you

17 don't need that. You are allowing him to waste money,

18 and it's a very bad practice regardless of the problem of

19 late regarding the environment.

20 Q Prior to 1988 were all of the lands under

21 sugar cane production over which you have had

22 agricultural productivity oversight been fertilized by

23 the banding method?

24 A At one time that was all done by the banding

25 methods.

101ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q That's 30 years ago?

2 A Yes. 30, 20, 15. I don't remember when it

3 was, the change.

4 Q When did it start coming back to that

5 system? When did you phase out -- you said with regard

6 to New Hope South that broadcasting was never used in the

7 seven to eight years since New Hope South was acquired?

8 A I didn't say "never used."

9 Q Was it used?

10 A I say that for the seven years where we have

11 been operating their farm, we are switching back to the

12 banding at planting time --

13 Q When did you start that?

14 A -- that we have not reached a hundred

15 percent yet.

16 Q So on New Hope South property right now,

17 this growing season, you are still broadcasting

18 fertilizer on some of the fields?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Okay. When did you start the transition

21 back to the banding-style process or on-the-drill-style

22 process?

23 A Since we acquired the farm.

24 Q In 1988 how much of the land was done by

25 broadcast, approximately, and how much done by the

102ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 banding method?

2 A By memory I cannot say that.

3 Q How much this year?

4 A I don't know either.

5 Q Do you have any records whatsoever that show

6 for New Hope South how fertilizer has been applied on the

7 various fields?

8 A I don't know if we really have the record on

9 that.

10 Q Who makes the decision as to what mechanism

11 will be used or which of the two methods will be used on

12 a given field?

13 A The local manager.

14 Q That's Mr. Garcia?

15 A Right.

16 Q Have you ever discussed this subject with

17 him?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Have you given him guidance on what factors

20 he should consider in making that decision?

21 A My guidance is that we have to be changing

22 as soon as we can and have available equipment to do.

23 Q Well, how much equipment do you have right

24 now for applying by banding?

25 A Fertilizer has been applied in the area

103ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 primarily by custom applicators.

2 Q What's a custom applicator?

3 A The custom applicator is the one that you

4 contract to apply the fertilizer on the land.

5 Q So New Hope South does not maintain its own

6 fertilization equipment?

7 A Equipment, no.

8 Q Is that generally the practice in the EAA,

9 that independent companies are used for that purpose?

10 A Yes.

11 Q What company do you use at New Hope South?

12 A I don't remember the name of the company

13 now.

14 Q Is it related in any way, to your knowledge,

15 to any of the companies you are a director or officer

16 for?

17 A No.

18 Q Do you remember which city the company is

19 located in?

20 A Bell Glade, I guess.

21 Q Do you contract with that company to put

22 fertilizer on New Hope South fields using both methods?

23 The same company does it both ways?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Do they tell you in advance, or is it

104ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 specified in your contracts which method they should use?

2 A If New Hope want or require for them the

3 methods to be used, then usually it's been done with the

4 equipment available 'cause since in the Glades area the

5 common practice was to broadcast, most of the custom

6 applicators were not prepared to put in band, and they

7 are modifying equipment today to apply the fertilizer in

8 band at the planting time.

9 Q Do you contract with the same company to do

10 the planting for you?

11 A No.

12 Q So you lease the equipment from them, and

13 you fertilize at the time of planting in a simultaneous

14 operation?

15 A You contract to them to put the fertilizer

16 on the ground for you at the time you are planting.

17 Q So a given section of the field, on a given

18 section, both operations occur at the same time?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that true whether you use the broadcast

21 method or you use the banding method?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Who would know or be most knowledgeable or

24 be able to answer my question as to how much of New Hope

25 South's 27,000 acres are currently being banded and

105ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 currently being fertilized by broadcast?

2 A Garcia.

3 Q Now, we've been talking about the first

4 growth from the seed cane, the first ratoon. After the

5 first ratoon, how is the additional fertilizer

6 recommended by IFAS, which you agree with, put on the

7 fields?

8 A Usually broadcast.

9 Q Why is that?

10 A Because it's primarily only potash, and the

11 results are better broadcast than on band.

12 Q There are occasions, are there not, when

13 IFAS recommends for a ratoon crop after the first that an

14 additional P2O5 be put on the fields as well?

15 A Might be in some occasions.

16 Q When IFAS recommends in their analysis from

17 the Everglades Research and Education Center amounts of a

18 particular substance, how do they specify that? Do they

19 tell you in pounds per acre, or what parameters do they

20 use to tell you how much to put out?

21 A Usually are in pounds per acre.

22 Q So an entry on their reports that would say

23 40 for a particular substance would mean 40 pounds per

24 acre of potash or whatever?

25 A Right.

106ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form to the

2 extent you're referring to a document that's not

3 been introduced into the record.

4 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I understand

5 counsel, but since I received the documents only

6 this morning and I'll be reviewing them over

7 lunch to try to see what's appropriate, I thought

8 it would be helpful to know the parameters. It

9 may help me narrow the questions after lunch and

10 narrow the parameters, but I understand your

11 objection.

12 Q Since your graduation from the University of

13 Havana, have you taken any additional course work in the

14 field of agricultural sciences?

15 A During many years I was attending to the

16 sugar cane seminars by IFAS at the Bell Glade

17 experimental station.

18 Q You've gone to that essentially every year

19 since '62 or since they started them?

20 A Those seminars usually was three or four in

21 a year and was only at nighttime.

22 Q Are those still ongoing?

23 A I think so.

24 Q Do you still attend them?

25 A No.

107ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Have you attended any other seminars or

2 formal courses of instruction since 1962, since you came

3 to the EAA, in the fields of agricultural sciences

4 related to your work?

5 A No.

6 Q When you took your Master's or the

7 equivalent of your Master's degree at the University of

8 Havana, were there any courses on the subject of best

9 management practices?

10 A Can you define to me what is a best

11 management practice?

12 Q Have you heard the term "best management

13 practice" or "BMP"?

14 A That is what I'm asking you the question.

15 Q I'm just asking, have you heard the term?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Based on your training and experience, what

18 does a farming best management practice mean to you?

19 A The best thing that you can do.

20 (Interruption. Whereupon proceedings were

21 recessed for lunch.)

22 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: The last question

23 about BMP's, when you say the best thing you can do, do

24 you mean the best practice that can be adopted by a

25 farmer to maximize the return of the crop?

108ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Without a detriment of the land he's using.

2 Q Does your notion of what a BMP is include

3 downstream detrimental effects to land other than the

4 land being used by the farmer to produce his crop?

5 A What I have been reading in the newspaper,

6 you mean?

7 Q No. Your understanding based on your

8 training and experience, not what's in the newspaper.

9 A Well, what I don't understand in your

10 question is what the best management practice has to do

11 with the impact of the water down the river. That's your

12 question?

13 Q No. My question is: In your view, when you

14 use the term as you define best management practice, do

15 you factor in or take into consideration what impact a

16 farming practice would have beyond the property or land

17 that's being farmed?

18 A Yes.

19 Q What aspects of the impact outside of the

20 land do you take into account when you decide if

21 something is or is not a best management practice?

22 A From my regard are primarily in regard to

23 water.

24 Q You testified before our break that, since

25 New Hope South came into existence about eight years ago,

109ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 it has been moving back towards or away from broadcasting

2 fertilizer. During that time period, other than the soil

3 tests for purposes of fertilization, has any testing been

4 conducted by New Hope South related to water quality on

5 the lands it farms?

6 A Not as far as I know.

7 Q Has any testing or sampling been done by New

8 Hope South or anyone on its behalf to determine the

9 quality of the water that is discharged from the lands

10 farmed by New Hope South?

11 A I know that the Florida Sugar Cane League

12 have been conducting some tests.

13 Q Where?

14 A But I don't know exactly the locations.

15 Q Did you understand the test to have occurred

16 on New Hope South property?

17 A I don't know if some of those have been on

18 New Hope South's or not.

19 Q Are you referring to the testing program

20 that the Sugar Cane League has sponsored, which they have

21 reported on to the board of the South Florida Water

22 Management District?

23 A Yes.

24 Q You know about that through your position as

25 a director of the league?

110ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yeah.

2 Q Have you been briefed or attended any

3 meetings other than league directors' meetings on that

4 subject?

5 A No.

6 Q Do you know who is actually in charge of

7 those tests for the league?

8 A Hutcheon's Engineering.

9 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: H-u-t-c-h-e-o-n?

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: I think that's right.

11 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Have you ever read

12 the Surface Water Management Improvement Plan adopted by

13 the board of the South Florida Water Management District

14 in 1992?

15 A Just what I have been hearing about and have

16 been briefed about, but I didn't read it.

17 Q You have read none of it or the supporting

18 documents?

19 A No.

20 Q Had you read any of the earlier versions of

21 the plan?

22 A No.

23 Q Did you ever send comments to the Water

24 Management District or staff or board regarding their

25 development of the plan or their intent to adopt the

111ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 filed version?

2 A No.

3 Q Did you ever participate in discussions

4 within Flo-Sun's group of companies about that subject?

5 A No.

6 Q How about at the -- within the Florida Sugar

7 Cane League? Did you discuss that subject at any of your

8 directors' meetings?

9 A The subject have come up in some of the

10 directors' meetings.

11 Q Were the directors ever briefed on the

12 scientific aspects of the plan?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Who conducted those briefings or gave those

15 briefings to the board of directors of the Sugar Cane

16 League?

17 A I don't remember it specifically.

18 Q Do you recall if it was Hutcheon's

19 Engineering?

20 A Probably Hutcheon's Engineering.

21 Q Were you ever briefed by

22 Dr. Curtis Richardson?

23 A Not personally. I have not been in a

24 meeting where he have been doing any briefing.

25 Q Do you have any relationship with the EAA

112ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Environmental Protection District?

2 A No.

3 Q So you're not a director of that district or

4 sitting on the board?

5 A No.

6 Q You mentioned that this one portion of

7 handwritten text on Exhibit 2 -- it's mentioned that

8 you're a director of Florida Fruits and Vegetables

9 Association. When did you become a director?

10 A Just a couple months ago.

11 Q Have you participated in any board meetings

12 yet?

13 A No.

14 Q How did you happen to become a director of

15 the FFVA?

16 A By the retirement of another person from the

17 board of directors.

18 Q Who was that?

19 A Arthur Kirstein.

20 Q Were you designated to take over his seat by

21 New Hope South?

22 A By the Florida Fruit and Vegetables.

23 Q They asked you to participate?

24 A Yeah.

25 Q So there was no election or designation of

113ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 you by one of the companies that you are a director or

2 officer from?

3 A Not exactly.

4 Q Have you ever participated in any of the

5 meetings of the CARE Committee, C-A-R-E?

6 A No.

7 Q Have you heard of the CARE Committee?

8 A Not much.

9 Q You're aware that the Fruits and Vegetables

10 Association had established such an ad hoc committee

11 within the EAA?

12 A I understand, yes.

13 Q Have you seen any of the materials

14 disseminated by CARE?

15 A No.

16 Q Other than the corn grown on some of the

17 properties of companies you're associated with, rice and

18 sugar cane, do any of the companies with which you're

19 associated grow any other crops in the EAA?

20 A Yes. Small amounts of land sometimes in

21 radishes.

22 Q Is that done by leasing the land?

23 A Yes.

24 Q To an independent?

25 A Yes.

114ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Do you know who the land is leased to for

2 that purpose?

3 A John Hundley.

4 Q And Mr. Hundley -- specifically with respect

5 to the sweet corn, to whom is that land leased?

6 A You mean by besides John Hundley?

7 Q Yes.

8 A The other one is Roy Vandegrift.

9 Q Does Mr. Hundley lease land for sweet corn

10 as well or just radishes?

11 A No. Both.

12 Q Both? Have any of the companies with which

13 you're associated, to your knowledge, ever leased land to

14 Mr. Pope for sweet corn, Pope Farms, Edward or

15 Edmund Pope, Jr.?

16 A Yeah. I'm trying to -- long time ago by

17 Okeelanta there was some lease to go Lewis Pope -- I

18 don't remember -- one or two years.

19 Q Are you familiar with the phenomenon in the

20 EAA of soil subsidence?

21 A Will you define what subsidence you mean?

22 What do you mean with subsidence?

23 Q As an agricultural engineer, what would soil

24 subsidence mean to you?

25 A Subsidence is an oxidation.

115ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Yes. And what effect does it have on the

2 depths of soil at a given area?

3 A It will decrease the soil depths eventually.

4 Q Is soil oxidation in organic soils retarded

5 by the presence of high water tables?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is the farming that New Hope South does in

8 the EAA dependent to some degree on the depth of the muck

9 in which the sugar cane is planted?

10 A Not exactly.

11 Q How much muck soil do you need to grow a

12 crop of sugar cane?

13 A I really don't know.

14 Q Does anybody?

15 A I don't think so. Well, depend on what is

16 under that muck, what will happen. It's a matter of

17 speculation what will happen if there would be no muck.

18 Q Are you familiar with the EAA regulatory

19 rule adopted by the South Florida Water Management

20 District in Chapter 40E-63 of the Florida Administrative

21 Code, sometimes called the BMP rule?

22 A No.

23 Q You're aware that your chairman has publicly

24 stated that all Flo-Sun related corporations have applied

25 for permits under that rule, aren't you?

116ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes.

2 Q So you are?

3 A But I don't -- I don't identify that what

4 you mentioned, rule. I know that we have applied for

5 permits.

6 Q Who prepared the permit request on the

7 behalf of New Hope South?

8 A That was prepared by some of the staff

9 together with the Hutcheon Engineering.

10 Q Did you participate in the preparation or

11 review of that permit before it was submitted to the

12 district?

13 A No.

14 Q Did you see it at all?

15 A No.

16 Q Are you aware of any of the requirements of

17 the BMP rule passed by the district with regard to their

18 impact on farming practices of New Hope South?

19 A I have been more or less briefed.

20 Q Who conducted the briefing for you?

21 A Some of the people in our organization. Not

22 exactly briefing, just by talking over these things that

23 we had to comply with it.

24 Q What is your understanding, if any, of

25 water-management practices that will be required, changes

117ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 in water-management practice as a result of the EAA BMP

2 rule?

3 A Would you rephrase your question?

4 Q Will New Hope South be doing anything

5 different in the way it manages water as a result of that

6 rule?

7 A Yes.

8 Q What will you be doing that is different?

9 A Probably pumping less often.

10 Q When you say pumping, are you including

11 draining and irrigating, or are you speaking in terms of

12 drainage?

13 A Well, I'm speaking with drainage when I say

14 pumping.

15 Q Because you can pump both ways, can't you?

16 A Right.

17 Q What will that do to the water table on the

18 lands that New Hope South farms?

19 A According to the regulations, we will be

20 able to pump the -- probably will not be able to pump in

21 a continuous basis.

22 Q Do you pump -- do you drain the two parcels

23 currently? The two units that you've described of New

24 Hope South, do you pump continuously now for drainage

25 purposes?

118ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A No.

2 Q So neither of those areas are affected by

3 seepage or any other factor that demands continuous

4 pumping for drainage purposes?

5 A One of them, yes.

6 Q Which is that?

7 A The one to the west of the New River Canal.

8 Q Does the entire parcel require continuous

9 pumping or just portions of it?

10 A They have been affected lately by the water

11 in the Holey Land.

12 Q H-o-l-e-y.

13 A And for that reason, probably just to keep

14 the water elevation at the regulations, probably will

15 need to pump.

16 Q Did Hutcheon's Engineering establish a new

17 pumping schedule for your farms?

18 A They are in the process.

19 Q So it has not been implemented as yet?

20 A In practice, they have been trying to reduce

21 the pumping.

22 Q When did they begin that practice of

23 attempting to reduce it?

24 A Almost over a year.

25 Q Other than the modification of the pumping

119ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 program and the efforts since the lands were acquired by

2 New Hope South to move away from broadcast fertilizer,

3 what steps, if any, has New Hope South taken to comply

4 with best management practices in the EAA?

5 A I don't know specifically any one, but what

6 we are doing is trying to follow whatever recommendation

7 has been done.

8 Q Prior to a year ago, were any pumping

9 mechanisms in place to minimize pumping events within the

10 lands controlled by New Hope South?

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form of

12 the question. It's unclear what you mean by

13 "mechanisms".

14 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Do you understand

15 the question?

16 A No.

17 Q Okay. Prior to a year ago with the effort

18 to modify your pumping practices at New Hope South for

19 best management purposes, what was the pumping practice?

20 What was the regimen or mechanism in place that would

21 dictate when your field personnel would pump for drainage

22 purposes the two units farmed by New Hope?

23 A The common practice in the area?

24 Q Yes.

25 A To pump whenever you need to pump because

120ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 there is a heavy rain or you have a high water elevation.

2 Q Were there any instructions telling your

3 personnel how high to allow the water table to come

4 before pumping?

5 A Usually, yes.

6 Q What was that? What depth did you allow

7 that to?

8 A About at 18 to 24 inches below the surface.

9 Q And under the modified plan you're using

10 now, what level are you holding the water at?

11 A After the regulation?

12 Q Yes.

13 A I understand it's more or less the same.

14 Q Well, what effect has the regulation had,

15 then, on the pumping practices of New Hope South if

16 you're holding it at the same level?

17 A Before the regulation, you have not any rule

18 to go, only your own rules in regard to pumping. If

19 anyone want to pump 24 hours and lower down -- instead of

20 24, lower down, say, 40 -- they were able to do. There

21 was not any crime in doing that. Today they regulate the

22 people a little more carefully, and we are trying to be

23 within those regulations.

24 Q As an agricultural engineer, do you agree

25 with the proposition that the modified pumping schedule

121ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 will reduce phosphorus run-off from the farms?

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the

3 question to the extent it calls for an expert

4 opinion.

5 THE WITNESS: I'm not an expert on that,

6 but no doubt if you pump less, the volume is

7 less. If the concentration is the same, you pump

8 less amount of anything.

9 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How much rainfall

10 do you require in order are to produce a crop of sugar

11 cane in the EAA in a given year?

12 A The total rainfall within a year?

13 Q How much do you need to get a successful

14 crop?

15 A Ideal situation is to have the average

16 rainfall of 55 inches.

17 Q But there have been occasions, have there

18 not, in which a dry year the EAA has experienced record

19 production? Isn't that true?

20 A Yes, yes.

21 Q A few years ago that happened, didn't it?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Does New Hope South dredge its ditches and

24 canals of sediments?

25 A Yes.

122ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q How often is that done?

2 A As often as might be needed.

3 Q And what would dictate the need for that

4 action on the part of New Hope South?

5 A The accumulation of sediments, primarily in

6 the ditches.

7 Q What's the source the sediments in the

8 ditches?

9 A Erosion.

10 Q Erosion from the adjacent farmland's fields?

11 A The adjacent fields.

12 Q And what rule of thumb or condition would

13 indicate to you that it needs to be dredged?

14 A The common practice is to -- and I will not

15 use the word "dredge" because "dredge" mean that you use

16 a dredging, and what has been used in the Glades area are

17 cleaning by a backhoe.

18 Q During the dry season?

19 A No. We do that at least every year you

20 plant. You get in and clean all the ditches.

21 Q So every three years roughly?

22 A Every three years more or less.

23 Q Do you do the entire ditch network, or do

24 you backhoe, dredge, whatever term you want to use, only

25 in the vicinity of the pumps?

123ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Only on the lateral fill ditches.

2 Q Are you altering that practice as a result

3 of the passage of the BMP rule by the district?

4 A No.

5 Q So you expect that practice will continue --

6 A I --

7 Q -- roughly every three years?

8 A Yes.

9 Q In crop year '89-'90 that spanned that

10 growing season and harvest, the EAA experienced a record

11 year for sugar production, did it not?

12 A Yes.

13 Q That was a drought year, wasn't it, well

14 below normal rainfall?

15 A I don't remember exactly.

16 Q How can the EAA -- or how do you explain the

17 ability of the EAA to produce record sugar crops in years

18 with less than normal rainfall?

19 A The record crops in the Everglade

20 Agricultural Area have been produced by the type of

21 weather with regard of cold that you have. If you don't

22 have a freeze or a frost in two years, the second year

23 should be a record crop.

24 Q Okay. How does rainfall level factor into

25 that?

124ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A The rainfall doesn't affect that much

2 because muck land retain a lot of moisture, and on top of

3 that, you still can irrigate your land.

4 Q In a low rainfall year, where do you acquire

5 water for irrigation purposes?

6 A From the South Florida Water Management.

7 Q Where are they getting the water to keep the

8 canal full?

9 A Well, they have the lake. They have the

10 conservation areas, and they manage the water in that way

11 that, where there is an excess, they put those. When the

12 water is beneath, they raise the water.

13 Q When there are rainfalls that lead to

14 pumping events on the farms, you pump that water, that

15 drainage water, into the canal system of the South

16 Florida Water Management District?

17 A Yes.

18 Q To your knowledge, have any of the companies

19 that you're associated with in the EAA ever attempted to

20 optimize water usage in the EAA to minimize the pumping

21 prior to the start of this BMP rule by the district a

22 year ago?

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could you repeat that

24 question?

25 (Question read.)

125ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 THE WITNESS: As a farmer, most of the

2 farmers at least with some technical background

3 had a tendency to conserve anything that is

4 surrendered. It's so vital to a farmer to have a

5 good land and a good amount of water that I doubt

6 that anybody will do anything in excess and

7 detrimental to that.

8 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Except in a

9 drought year -- and I'm talking now prior to this last

10 year when the modified pumping practices went into

11 effect -- was it not the customary practice to surge pump

12 in advance of predicted rainfall to drain the fields? Do

13 you know?

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: You have to define. Is

15 the question directed to the practice of New Hope

16 South or general practice in the EAA?

17 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: General practice in

18 the EAA.

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: To the extent the witness

20 is able, he may answer.

21 THE WITNESS: I would say in the EAA may

22 have different type of practices for all the

23 people. Before my era probably might be have the

24 tendency to pump ahead of the rain event.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Now, you've been

126ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 in the EAA for 30 years now?

2 A Yes.

3 Q So if your era is that 30 years, has it not

4 been the practice to pump in advance of rainfall events?

5 A Not in our case.

6 Q In whose case?

7 A I don't know.

8 Q It has not been in the practice of any

9 corporate companies that you're associated with to pump

10 in advance of rainfall events?

11 A No.

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: To the best of the

13 witness's knowledge.

14 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Well, the witness

15 has testified he's the production supervisor of

16 all these entities.

17 THE WITNESS: No. But according to my

18 best knowledge, what I'm trying to tell you is

19 that we have never been in that practice of

20 pumping ahead just in case.

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Have you ever lost

22 a crop to excessive rainfall because you failed to pump

23 in advance?

24 A We have lost some crops in some years.

25 Q Have you ever lost a crop because you pumped

127ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 too much water and that after the rainfall, enough water

2 wasn't available in sufficient quantities to support the

3 crop?

4 A No.

5 Q So, in fact, the South Florida Water

6 Management District has always provided the water needed

7 to maintain crop growth for the companies with which

8 you're familiar?

9 A As I say before, the muck land retain a

10 certain amount of moisture, and you can be living without

11 the proper water elevation in your canals for a short

12 period of time.

13 Q For how long a period can -- we talked

14 earlier -- let me go back.

15 We talked earlier about how long sugar cane

16 and other crops can tolerate water standing on its roots.

17 How long can sugar cane tolerate being without water

18 before you place the crop in jeopardy?

19 A Depend on locations and fields.

20 Q In the fields of New Hope South.

21 A Very easily over a month.

22 Q And it won't affect production rates?

23 A I don't think so.

24 Q Are you aware of any time that New Hope

25 South has gone a month without irrigating --

128ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes.

2 Q -- in the absence of rainfall?

3 A Yes.

4 Q When was that?

5 A Any of the past years.

6 Q In the '88-'89 crop year, the drought year,

7 did you go 30 days without irrigating?

8 A Most probably, yes.

9 Q Prior to the BMP rule requirement for

10 maintaining pumping records, did New Hope South maintain

11 pumping records for its discharge records?

12 A No.

13 Q So there's nothing to document when water

14 was discharged or when irrigation water was brought onto

15 the fields for New Hope South?

16 A That's right.

17 Q Do you have a field manual or directive, a

18 publication of any sort that would tell your field

19 personnel when they should have pumped in either

20 direction?

21 A No. That's a position being taken by the

22 local manager.

23 Q Mr. Garcia?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Was he the manager at New Hope South for the

129ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 entire eight years?

2 A Since we have New Hope South.

3 Q Who farmed those lands before New Hope South

4 came into being seven or eight years ago?

5 A The previous owner.

6 Q Who was that?

7 A Shelton Lands Holding Company.

8 Q What is your understanding of the area of

9 agricultural practices you'll be testifying about at the

10 hearing in this matter?

11 A I would like for you to be more specific in

12 your question.

13 Q I wish I could. Are you familiar with your

14 designation as a witness in this case?

15 A I don't know what you mean by "designation."

16 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Could we mark this

17 as Exhibit No. 3?

18 (Recio Exhibit 3 was marked

19 for identification by the reporter and is

20 included herewith.)

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You were aware,

22 were you not, Mr. Recio, that you've been designated by

23 New Hope South and its allied petitioners in the

24 challenge filed to the SWIM plan as a fact witness? Were

25 you not?

130ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yeah, I know that's the reason I'm

2 testifying here today.

3 Q And you've been designated as a witness in a

4 certain area. I'm showing you what's marked as Exhibit 3

5 for the hearing. At the top just below your name, you'll

6 see "Subject Matter of Expected Testimony." I'll ask you

7 to take a moment and read that.

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: I believe counsel meant

9 for the deposition.

10 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'm sorry?

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: I believe you meant for

12 the deposition.

13 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What did I say?

14 Hearing.

15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Yes.

16 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: No. It was subject

17 matter of expected testimony for the hearing.

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: You referenced this as

19 Exhibit No. 3 for the hearing.

20 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. Whatever.

21 Q Are you familiar with that? Have you seen

22 this before?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. What I'm asking you is: Under your

25 subject matter of expected testimony, what agricultural

131ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 practices do you understand you will be testifying

2 concerning at the hearing?

3 A Any agricultural practice.

4 Q Do you understand that to be limited to the

5 agricultural practices of New Hope South?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Do you expect to offer testimony as to the

8 agricultural practices of any of the other

9 Flo-Sun-related entities?

10 A I understand that I will be here today to

11 testify for New Hope South.

12 Q Are the agricultural practices of the other

13 six or seven companies that you oversee agricultural

14 production for in the EAA different from those of New

15 Hope South?

16 A No, basically.

17 Q You indicated earlier that some of those

18 companies go back at least 20 years, presumably, some

19 even 30 since you've been here for 30 years. New Hope

20 Sugar Company, you indicated, you've been associated with

21 for 20 years. Have they modified their methods of

22 applying fertilizer to stop broadcasting the fertilizer?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Is that true of all the other companies as

25 well that you do production oversight for?

132ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes.

2 Q Are those efforts also limited by the

3 availability of the equipment from the independent

4 contractors?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Do all of the companies that you oversee for

7 this purpose use independent contractors to apply

8 fertilizers?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Do all of those companies as well dredge or

11 remove sediments from your field ditches on the schedule

12 you describe for New Hope South?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Have they all adopted since a year ago new

15 water-management procedures to minimize pumping events?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Do they operate on the same crop-rotation

18 system that you describe with regard to New Hope South?

19 A Basically, yes.

20 Q Are any of them different in some way that

21 stands out in your mind?

22 A No.

23 Q With regard to the selection of crop or the

24 timing of rotation?

25 A No.

133ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Do they differ in any way with regard to the

2 factors that are considered?

3 A No.

4 Q How about soil type?

5 A More or less the same.

6 Q Have you been overseeing the production on

7 the Closter farms tract?

8 A Oversee the production, you mean?

9 Q Yes. Closter farms has been under lease,

10 has it not?

11 A Yes.

12 Q To which or what company?

13 A I don't understand your question.

14 Q The Closter Farms property near Lake

15 Okeechobee, the soils in that area are particularly rich,

16 are they not?

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of the

18 question.

19 THE WITNESS: Closter?

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the use of the

21 term "rich."

22 I'm sorry. You have to wait for my

23 objection. Now you can go ahead.

24 THE WITNESS: When you are referring to

25 Closter, you are referring to a particular

134ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 location of Closter?

2 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Yes. That area

3 adjacent to the lake.

4 A The area adjacent to the lake. What's your

5 particular question?

6 Q Are you familiar with the soil type in that

7 area?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Do any of the companies that you manage

10 production for at this time have fields in that area?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Which entity is that?

13 A Closter.

14 Q Have you been managing the production on the

15 Closter Farms area.

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the

17 relevance of the question.

18 You can go ahead and respond.

19 THE WITNESS: I have been supervising

20 management.

21 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: The same as you

22 have for the other companies?

23 A (Witness indicates by nodding head up and

24 down.)

25 Q Okay. Which of the companies you're

135ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 associated with are actually farming or raising the crops

2 on the Closter property?

3 A Sugar Farms Co-op.

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: It's irrelevant.

5 Objection.

6 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: And the answer

7 was?

8 A Sugar Farms Co-op.

9 Q What type of soil is the Closter Farms

10 composed of?

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Relevance objection.

12 THE WITNESS: I am not qualified to make

13 any big differentiation on the type of soil.

14 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Are you familiar

15 with the depth of the soils, the muck soils in the

16 vicinity in which Closter farms is located?

17 A Yes.

18 Q What are the depths there?

19 A It varies.

20 Q I'm sorry?

21 A It varies.

22 Q In comparison to the soils at the New Hope

23 South locations, are the soils, the muck soils, at the

24 Closter sites considerably deeper?

25 A No.

136ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Shallower?

2 A In places they are shallower, and places are

3 equal.

4 Q You do understand, do you not, that the

5 Closter Farms is generally regarded as one of the most

6 arable areas within the EAA?

7 A Yes. I'm familiar with what the news media

8 says.

9 Q In fact, it's a much more desirable farming

10 location than the two sites farmed by New Hope South.

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of the

12 question it has no definition as to "more

13 desirable" and as to whom.

14 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: To a farmer.

15 THE WITNESS: It's more desirable due to

16 weather in regard of less frequency of freezing

17 and frost.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: That's regarded

19 generally as a frost-free season because of its proximity

20 to the lake; is that not correct?

21 A Correct. Not because of the quality of the

22 soil.

23 Q There's nothing wrong with the quality of

24 the soil, is there?

25 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance

137ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 of the question.

2 THE WITNESS: If you let me do it, I would

3 build the New Hope soil in the position where the

4 Closter land is, nearer the lake.

5 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What about the

6 soil? Is it New Hope South's that's superior?

7 A The Closter tract of land, as I say before,

8 have different muck elevations and is not that easy to

9 control the water.

10 Q Is the problem excessive run-off, or does it

11 hold too much water?

12 A It's seepage from the lake.

13 Q I've gone through the documents you've

14 provided and would like to invite your attention back to

15 Exhibit 1, which was the Notice of Deposition. The first

16 paragraph on page 5 in the Notice of Deposition called

17 for certain documents to be produced; that is, to

18 "Provide all documents that explain or describe the

19 agricultural practices and enterprises of New Hope South,

20 Inc. in the EAA."

21 Do I understand your testimony correctly

22 that you have no records to date of New Hope South that

23 describe the pumping practices of New Hope South?

24 A No.

25 Q You stated that Hutcheon's Engineering was

138ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 putting into place the new pumping practices to meet the

2 EAA rule or requirement of South Florida Water Management

3 District. Have they developed nothing and provided you

4 nothing in writing?

5 A As far as I know, no.

6 Q What did you do to ensure that documents

7 responsive to this were located?

8 A By searching the files of the farm office.

9 Q Did you ask Mr. Garcia if any of these

10 things existed?

11 A I had some conversation with him regarding

12 providing all the documents that we have here.

13 Q Did you personally search the files, or did

14 you have that done at your direction?

15 A No, at my directions.

16 Q Who actually did that?

17 A Mr. Garcia.

18 Q So insofar as you know, Hutcheon's has not

19 provided anything in writing --

20 A As far as I know.

21 Q -- to New Hope South?

22 A As far as I know.

23 Q The second area of documents that -- let's

24 go back.

25 Does New Hope South ever apply nemacides or

139ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 herbicides to its fields?

2 A Herbicides, yes.

3 Q What type of herbicides were applied to the

4 fields of New Hope South?

5 A Whatever is available and recommended by

6 IFAS to control grasses or weeds.

7 Q How does IFAS provide those recommendations

8 to New Hope South?

9 A They make a periodical review of

10 recommendations for cane cultivation.

11 Q Do they inspect your fields?

12 A Not exactly.

13 Q Do you send them samples from which they

14 determine the presence of weeds or other --

15 A No. They put a recommendation for the type

16 of herbicides that you should be using for any type of

17 weeds. Is up to the farmer to identify the weeds, to use

18 the proper herbicides.

19 Q So it's a general recommendation. If you

20 have this kind of weed, this is the herbicide to use?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Do they also indicate the rate of

23 application for weeds?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Does New Hope South maintain the records of

140ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 the herbicides it has applied to its fields for the last

2 seven years?

3 A I don't know.

4 Q Is the same thing true of nemacides or

5 pesticides of any sort? Do you apply pesticides in

6 the --

7 A What do you mean with pesticides?

8 Q A fauna-inhibiting substance designed to

9 eradicate pests that might otherwise affect the

10 productivity of the field.

11 A But you also mentioned nemacide?

12 Q Nemacide.

13 A We usually don't use any nemacides.

14 Q How about pesticides?

15 A There are some occasion where some pesticide

16 have been used the same way, by following the

17 recommendation by IFAS for the cane production of the

18 Everglades Agricultural Area.

19 Q Are there any reports whatsoever at New Hope

20 South indicating what pesticides have been used and in

21 what quantities over the last seven years?

22 A No.

23 Q What records does New Hope South keep of its

24 field management practices?

25 A Usually day of planting, variety, and

141ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 productions.

2 Q Have you provided those?

3 A I think they are the thing we did provide to

4 you.

5 Q I've reviewed the list or the set -- and

6 I'll show them to you in a minute when we get to them --

7 but it appears there's nothing older than about 1989 in

8 there. Do you have the records for the seven to eight

9 years that you've testified New Hope South existed?

10 A For all -- I was wrong because those are the

11 records produced for New Hope South. I didn't know seven

12 years.

13 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I don't understand,

14 Counsel. Do you?

15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Do I understand what?

16 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Where the other

17 five year's records are.

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: I believe you might want

19 to read back what the witness's response just

20 was.

21 THE WITNESS: What I'm trying to explain,

22 if I say seven years, I might have been wrong in

23 saying seven years, and it was less than seven

24 years.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: So when you

142ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 testified that you've been an officer and director of New

2 Hope South for seven years or so, you're now saying

3 that's not correct?

4 A Probably is not correct, and I was confused.

5 Q Well, now, how long do you think New Hope

6 South has been around?

7 A Since we acquired that farm. And probably

8 we would have a record of '88 or '89. That was the year

9 we acquired the farm.

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Let me object to that

11 question before we go on, just for the record,

12 and we may wish perhaps -- I don't know if it's

13 necessary, but the record may show the witness

14 never said seven years but rather testified four,

15 four, five years. But you can have her go back

16 to this morning's testimony.

17 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Well, I easily

18 could have confused the times because we were

19 going through that whole set of names that were

20 very similar.

21 Q But if it's four to five years, what I'm

22 just trying to establish -- and maybe it's easier to ask

23 this way: Are you certain that these records you have

24 provided on the agricultural practices, such that they

25 are as you've described them, span the entire period that

143ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 New Hope South has been in existence?

2 A Farming, yes.

3 Q Whatever that period of time is, these are

4 all the records?

5 A I might be confused; so you might have been

6 confused when you put that number there.

7 Q I may have been thinking of New Hope Sugar.

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Tom, you're pointing to

9 fertilizer charts, and we also previously

10 supplied all these other documents to you

11 (indicating).

12 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: No, you have not

13 with respect to this deposition. I have received

14 nothing for this witness before this morning,

15 which is contrary to the practice that has

16 prevailed in this case since day one of the SWIM

17 plan challenge.

18 Now, as a point of fact, the United States

19 has no fact witnesses in this case but the

20 district and DER do, and they have without

21 failure provided, in advance of the deposition

22 date, fact-witness documents as has the league as

23 has the co-op prior to this.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Well, I'll let you finish

25 your spiel.

144ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'm done.

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: But contrary to what you

3 say --

4 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What documents are

5 you asserting were supplied to the United States

6 in response to this Notice of Deposition?

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: You have specifically

8 requested and made the same request to New Hope

9 South with regard to their ag practices, and

10 those documents were provided early on in this

11 deposition to you with regard to New Hope South.

12 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Early on in this

13 deposition?

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'm sorry. Early on in

15 these proceedings -- okay? -- number one.

16 Number two, contrary to what counsel is

17 saying, we have received on numerous occasions

18 from fact witnesses -- and the United States in

19 particular is the party that has stated that they

20 will not agree to advance production of documents

21 for fact witnesses, but rather maintain that

22 those documents are only due on the day of the

23 deposition, and only expert documents are covered

24 by the officer of the court or the hearing

25 officer.

145ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 As a result, the United States has in

2 particular led the way in making a distinction

3 for fact witnesses as to when those documents are

4 due. We are merely following the procedure set

5 forth by the United States, who has convinced the

6 district and DER to follow suit.

7 Now, again, this is similar, I guess, to

8 what you're saying with regard to Bob Johnson's

9 documents. You have asked New Hope South with

10 regard to if we provided those to you. If you'd

11 like another set of those made, we can do that

12 again.

13 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: This witness has

14 never indicated in advance, through you,

15 knowledge, access, or control of any documents

16 other than those that were given to me this

17 morning.

18 On the contrary, if you want to use

19 Mr. Johnson as an example, you were advised in

20 advance of the existence of certain data bases.

21 Opportunity was given to have your expert come

22 with him to see what needed to be produced, and

23 we asked if you wanted that stuff reproduced

24 again. That was a courtesy that has not been

25 afforded to the United States in this case.

146ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll --

2 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You'll get your

3 chance.

4 Secondly, the United States has no fact

5 witnesses in this case. I would invite your

6 attention to either of the files with the hearing

7 officer in this case with regard to that. You'll

8 find that we have only expert witnesses; so it is

9 impossible for the United States to establish a

10 practice with regard to its fact witnesses since

11 it has none.

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Counsel, we have listed

13 numerous fact witnesses of the United States, and

14 we have been told that those documents will only

15 be produced on the day of the deposition.

16 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Those, Counsel, are

17 your fact witnesses when you designate them.

18 They may be adverse witnesses, but they are not

19 our witnesses.

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: If they are not your

21 witnesses, you should not be able to raise

22 objections and instruct them not to respond.

23 At any rate, Counsel, I have actually

24 brought along my set of the documents that have

25 been previously produced; so I'm surprised you

147ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 have not, since you made a specific request as to

2 New Hope South practices. If they may be of

3 assistance, I can let you use these.

4 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Let's move on.

5 Q Other than the documents provided this

6 morning with regard to fertilization of the plantations

7 farmed by New Hope South, what other documentation

8 reflecting the agricultural practices of New Hope South

9 are you familiar with, Mr. Recio?

10 A The history of each area, our plantation,

11 let's say, land distribution and the actual production of

12 each year.

13 MR. TARR: Counsel, could we take a

14 minute-and-a-half break?

15 (Recess. Whereupon Mr. Tarr left the

16 deposition proceedings.)

17 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What documents are

18 you familiar with maintained by New Hope South which

19 reflect the agricultural practices and enterprises of New

20 Hope South other than the set of soil test reports that

21 you've provided this morning and the set of -- what would

22 you call these? -- area farm charts or depictions of the

23 location of the farms or plantations that are farmed by

24 New Hope South?

25 A The record of production --

148ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Yes.

2 A -- and the land distribution, which field is

3 in what stage.

4 Q And those reflect what crop you're

5 producing, what ratoon stage it's in, and that gives the

6 history over the four years or so that New Hope South has

7 been farmed by New Hope South --

8 A Yes.

9 Q -- for those lands?

10 Okay. Does New Hope South provide its

11 production information to the Florida Sugar Cane League,

12 indicating what its production by ton is and its --

13 (Whereupon Mr. Tarr entered the deposition

14 proceedings.)

15 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: -- its sugar

16 production by ton?

17 A No.

18 Q Does New Hope South provide that information

19 to the U.S. Department of Agriculture?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you know what's done with that

22 information by USDA?

23 A Will you repeat that question?

24 Q Why do you report that information or

25 provide it to the U.S. Department of Agriculture?

149ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A That's required.

2 Q What program requires that to be provided?

3 A That information will be provided to the

4 ASCS.

5 Q Could you, for the record, state what the

6 ASCS is?

7 A The Agricultural Soil Stabilization -- let

8 me try to see if I memorize it. Agricultural Soil and

9 Conservation.

10 Q That's kind of a new one on me. That's why

11 I asked you to state it. I'm not sure I know that

12 acronym, but there's a lot of them so --

13 A I know it's Agricultural Soil Conservation.

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: Service?

15 THE WITNESS: Service.

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: I thought I heard an "E"

17 in there.

18 THE WITNESS: Conservation Service.

19 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Have you ever seen

20 any publication by USDA or the Soil Conservation Service

21 that reported production figures for sugar cane by state

22 or by area?

23 A No.

24 Q Do any of the documents maintained by New

25 Hope South address water quality or quantity issues

150ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 related to this lawsuit?

2 A No.

3 Q Have you ever read the Complaint or the

4 Second Amended -- First Amended, Second Amended Complaint

5 filed by or on behalf of New Hope South in this case?

6 A No.

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: For the record, "Petition."

8 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Petition. They're

9 calling it a Petition. Have you ever read the

10 Petition --

11 A No.

12 Q -- that led to us all being here today?

13 Did you ever discuss in advance of being

14 here today the allegations of the Petition or the factual

15 and/or scientific basis for --

16 A No.

17 Q -- these allegations?

18 A No.

19 Q You have no familiarity with that at all?

20 A No.

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection. Other than

22 discussions with counsel?

23 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Other than the

24 recommendations from IFAS contained in the documents you

25 provided this morning from their Research and Education

151ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Center soil test lab, do you have any other document of

2 New Hope South not previously provided that indicates the

3 amount of fertilizer actually applied?

4 A You have to have there.

5 Q Are the handwritten numbers on this what was

6 actually applied?

7 A No.

8 Q Oh, that's just sodium, isn't it?

9 A That's sodium.

10 Q Is it your testimony, then, that the

11 recommended amounts, as reflected on these reports, were,

12 in fact, always applied?

13 A That's, as I testified this morning, more or

14 less in that way.

15 Q How would -- well, we'll have to look at

16 some of those. Have you ever reviewed any documents

17 regarding alternatives to the SWIM plan clean-up

18 strategies for EAA?

19 A Yes. I have been briefed by our counsel and

20 our consultant in regard to other alternative.

21 Q What consultant was that?

22 A Primarily Hutcheon's Engineering.

23 Q Are any of those alternatives being tested

24 on New Hope South --

25 A No.

152ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q -- lands?

2 Other than the briefing, have you had any

3 direct involvement in evaluating or determining the

4 applicability of those alternatives?

5 A No.

6 Q Have you had any involvement in assessing

7 the economic impact of those alternatives?

8 A No.

9 Q Have you had any involvement in assessing

10 the economic impact of the SWIM plan as adopted in March

11 of '92 by the board on the EAA?

12 A As I said before, in a conversation with our

13 own counsels and the possibility of losing production

14 land. That's as far as I have been involved.

15 Q What is your understanding of the lands that

16 would be lost by New Hope South if the SWIM plan were

17 implemented ultimately as it's currently written?

18 A What's your question?

19 Q What is your understanding of the impact on

20 New Hope South's lands if, in fact, the SWIM plan goes

21 forward as it's written?

22 A One of the STA's was in the lands of New

23 Hope South.

24 Q Do you know which STA that is?

25 A I don't know by number, but I know it is the

153ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 one on the Hillsboro Canal.

2 Q Will it, as drafted, require New Hope South

3 to yield up all the lands it currently has on that side

4 of the canal?

5 A What I know is that part of the New Hope

6 South land has been designated as a possible STA.

7 Q How many acres of New Hope South lands?

8 A I don't remember exactly.

9 Q What's that land worth, if you know?

10 A What's your question?

11 Q What is the value of the land there?

12 A What's the value?

13 Q Yes.

14 A I don't know exactly.

15 Q Is that land owned by New Hope South or

16 leased?

17 A Owned.

18 Q And it was purchased approximately four

19 years ago?

20 A Yes.

21 Q How much did they pay per acre for the land

22 four years ago?

23 A I'm not familiar with the transaction.

24 Q Were you not a director and officer of all

25 these other corporations during that period of time?

154ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes, but even with that, I don't have to be

2 familiar with the transaction itself.

3 Q Did not Flo-Sun, in fact, acquire those

4 lands on behalf of New Hope South?

5 A No.

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form in the

7 negative. Also, I object to the relevance.

8 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: You can answer.

9 A I don't think Flo-Sun have anything to do

10 with that.

11 Q Who conducted the negotiations to acquire

12 the lands?

13 A Don Carson.

14 Q Were you able to locate any documents that

15 indicated a breakdown between broadcast and banding of

16 fertilizers at New Hope South?

17 A No.

18 Q Do you have any reason to believe that your

19 outside contractor would have that information?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q Do you have any documents -- studies,

22 surveys, or data -- which demonstrate the impact the SWIM

23 plan would have on the agricultural activities of New

24 Hope South?

25 A No.

155ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Have you had any consultant study the

2 economic viability of New Hope South if, in fact, it has

3 to give up a portion of its property to one of the STA's?

4 A Not as far as I know.

5 Q And you don't know how many acres that STA

6 overlaps New Hope South?

7 A No.

8 Q So you don't know the extent of the economic

9 impact, if any?

10 A Any portion of the land that you lost, that

11 will imply an economic impact in your unit production.

12 Q What are New Hope South's unit production

13 costs?

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the question to

15 the extent it asks for information on farm

16 economics which have been resolved by the hearing

17 officer as not being at issue in this case.

18 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'm not asking as

19 to a particular field. I'm asking overall what

20 their production costs are.

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: When you are saying

22 "their," again, you're referring to --

23 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: New Hope South.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- New Hope South?

25 THE WITNESS: I have no --

156ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'd like you to rephrase

2 the question.

3 Could you read that back?

4 (Record read.)

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Again, that's a specific

6 on farm.

7 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Let me explain

8 where I was going with that. Maybe we can

9 rephrase it or get around it.

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay.

11 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: His earlier answer

12 was that loss of any land will have an economic

13 impact, and what I'm essential asking is how

14 would you quantify the economic impact of the

15 removal of 1 acre or 50 acres or 100, whatever

16 the ultimate amount would be. And since he

17 cannot recall the number of acres that would be

18 involved, I'm kind of going in at it in the other

19 direction so we can figure out the number of

20 acres involved.

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Before you do that, we're

22 going to get to a point I'm going to -- 'cause

23 you're asking on farm unit costs. And if you

24 want to pursue that route, I will go ahead and

25 instruct him not to respond. But I think you

157ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 will find that he is not involved in the

2 economics, and I don't think he had anything to

3 do with that either.

4 But again, I will not let him respond to

5 what the per unit production cost is for New Hope

6 South. If you'd like to rephrase it in some

7 manner, I'll go ahead and see if we can get

8 around that instruction.

9 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How would you

10 determine the economic impact of the loss of a given

11 amount of property of New Hope South? How would you go

12 about that?

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: And let me, just for the

14 record, object to the extent that that calls for

15 an expert economic opinion.

16 But you can go ahead and respond.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm not an economic expert,

18 and I'm not either involved in the financial aspect of

19 the company. What I mentioned before, that reduced or

20 increased the cost of the unit. And since you have a

21 unit that produce a hundred units of anything and you

22 reduce the ability to produce that hundred units to,

23 let's say, 50 percent, you don't doubt that that will

24 affect your unitary costs. That's what I mean when I

25 mentioned what I say before.

158ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: If that's true,

2 you're assuming that there's an economy of scale related

3 to the size of the farm; is that correct?

4 A Correct.

5 Q To make that statement, then, you must have

6 some sense of what, in fact, production costs are.

7 A No, specifically. It's a commonsense thing.

8 Q What goes in for a -- what are the

9 components of the production costs for a sugar plantation

10 in the EAA?

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the extent

12 it calls for an expert opinion.

13 But you can go ahead and respond.

14 THE WITNESS: There's a lot of factors

15 involved. No?

16 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: What?

17 A You have to pay rent, or you have to pay

18 amortization on your land. You have to pay salaries.

19 You have to buy equipment.

20 Q And you've got to buy fertilizer?

21 A You have to buy fertilizer.

22 Q You've got to hire people to apply the

23 fertilizer?

24 A Correct.

25 Q You do not at New Hope South, though, hire

159ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 the people to harvest; correct?

2 A No.

3 Q Are you involved in the hiring of the people

4 to put the fertilizer on?

5 A No.

6 Q Are you involved in the acquisition of the

7 fertilizer itself?

8 A No.

9 Q I should probably ask, is that done like as

10 a package deal? The contractor who does the fertilizer

11 application provides the materials?

12 A No.

13 Q So you provide that to the jobber, and he

14 puts it on?

15 A Correct.

16 Q Are you involved in the acquisition of the

17 machinery and equipment necessary for cultivating crops

18 on New Hope South?

19 A Not necessarily.

20 Q Does that mean sometimes you are?

21 A No, no. What I mean is that I might be

22 discussing with the general manager the need of

23 replacement in equipment or add equipment. From there

24 on, I not get involved in how much he will pay for the

25 equipment.

160ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Who deals with the day-to-day expense issues

2 for New Hope South?

3 A The accounting department take care of it.

4 Q Who's the accounting department? How large

5 is that?

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

7 THE WITNESS: Who personally leads the

8 accounting department?

9 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: How big is the

10 accounting department for a 27,000-acre operation?

11 A I don't know any specific for New Hope

12 South. Done by New Hope South in combination with

13 others.

14 Q New Hope South does not have its own

15 separate accounting department?

16 A No.

17 Q Which of the other corporate entities or

18 organizations provide those services for New Hope South?

19 A Okeelanta.

20 Q Now, Okeelanta also provides the research

21 service at the mill; correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q What other services does Okeelanta provide

24 for New Hope South?

25 A The harvesting for the cane and the grind.

161ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q And the merchandising of the end product;

2 right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Have you discussed with anybody at Flo-Sun

5 the possible provision of part of the lands of New Hope

6 South to be used for STA's?

7 A No.

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the relevance.

9 THE WITNESS: With Flo-Sun, no.

10 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Are you familiar

11 with the statement about Alfonso Fanjul, Jr., that

12 Flo-Sun has entered into an agreement with water managers

13 at the South Florida Water Management District that will

14 make available land needed for stormwater treatment

15 areas?

16 A Yes.

17 Q How are you familiar with that statement?

18 A I read the exact same thing you are reading.

19 Q Okay. We're reading it from the same page,

20 then. Were you aware that -- well, you were aware, were

21 you not, that one of the areas in which stormwater

22 treatment land areas were required encompassed part of

23 the area farmed by New Hope South? Were you not?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Are any of those lands farmed by New Hope

162ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 South located in the area that would be swapped to the

2 South Florida Water Management District in exchange for

3 the Closter Farms area?

4 A Yes.

5 Q So if, in fact, that deal goes through, then

6 New Hope South will have no economic impact because its

7 holding company, Flo-Sun will have made the decision to

8 acquire the more desirable lands of the Closter Farms in

9 exchange for the impacted area of New Hope South?

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of the

11 question. To the extent there's an account of

12 more desirable lands, it calls for an economic

13 opinion.

14 But otherwise you can go ahead and

15 respond.

16 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Let me clarify.

17 Q When I say "more desirable," I mean in the

18 sense you used it, that it's more frost-free and is a

19 very attractive piece of land from the farmers'

20 perspective in the EAA. I'm not making --

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Let me clarify that the

22 witness has never used "more desirable." The

23 witness has said that is of benefit in that it is

24 frost-free. "More desirable" is your term.

25 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Let me make

163ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 something very clear. As an agricultural engineer and

2 having been in the EAA for 30 years, do you think it is a

3 wise farming decision to try and acquire the Closter

4 Farms area in exchange for property currently farmed by

5 New Hope South?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. So that's a wise, desirable thing

8 from the perspective of a farmer in the EAA.

9 Now, given that, you understand that Flo-Sun

10 has been negotiating to swap a piece of New Hope South,

11 in fact, a big chunk of New Hope South, that would

12 otherwise fall within the STA to the Water Management

13 District in a three-way deal with the Water Management

14 District to get Closter Farms?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q In fact, it happens that no other farms in

17 New Hope South would be impacted by the STA's, will they?

18 A No, I don't know. STA designation has been

19 changing continuously.

20 Q What makes you think that?

21 A What I read in the paper.

22 Q Were you aware of any change in the SWIM

23 plan that identifies the location and size of the STA's?

24 A What I have been reading is not very defined

25 area. Might be here; might be there; might be here and

164ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 there.

2 Q Just shows you can't believe everything you

3 read in the papers.

4 A For sure not.

5 Q Are you familiar with Mr. Fanjul's statement

6 that Flo-Sun is providing research money to Duke

7 University and the University of Florida on

8 Everglades-related issues?

9 A Yeah. I say before that I read the same

10 page.

11 Q Other than having read it there, were you

12 familiar with that effort --

13 A No.

14 Q -- by Flo-Sun?

15 A No.

16 Q Has New Hope South, to your knowledge, been

17 involved in that in any way?

18 A No.

19 Q Have researchers with Duke University or the

20 University of Florida conducted any testing, to your

21 knowledge, on New Hope South properties?

22 A I don't know.

23 Q Do you agree with Mr. Fanjul's statement in

24 his editorial that we both read that phosphorus run-off

25 from the EAA has degraded the natural Everglades

165ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 environment?

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object to the form

3 of the question as reading what is referred to as

4 Mr. Fanjul's statement, but that is merely a

5 newspaper article. It's hearsay.

6 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. Would you

7 please mark that the next numbered exhibit?

8 And here is a copy for the witness and

9 counsel. It's, for the record, the Palm Beach

10 Post, Sunday, January 24, 1993, an article

11 authored by Mr. Fanjul, which, in fact, was on

12 the editorial page, I'll represent for the

13 record. So we're not talking about a newspaper

14 article of or about Mr. Fanjul. This is his

15 writing. We'll make that No. 4.

16 (Recio Exhibit 4 was marked

17 for identification by the reporter and is

18 included herewith.)

19 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Let's move on and

20 go ahead and mark these documents. The lead

21 document is dated -- well, received 11-10-92.

22 It's from the Everglades Research and Education

23 Center, and it's got a Bates No. NHS 1077336. I

24 don't know if these are -- are they sequentially

25 marked? Do you know?

166ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: The numbers, I believe,

2 are sequential, yes --

3 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Going down --

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: -- Bates numbers going

5 down --

6 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: -- to Bates

7 No. 1077368. And make that composite Exhibit 5.

8 (Recio Exhibit 5(1-33) was marked

9 for identification by the reporter and is

10 included herewith.)

11 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Before we actually

12 page into that, Mr. Recio, what is your understanding of

13 when the land swap will be finalized between the Closter

14 Farms and the New Hope South parcel with the State of

15 Florida and the Water Management District? Do you know

16 when that's supposed to occur?

17 A '94.

18 Q In the meantime, is the Closter parcel being

19 farmed?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Who is farming it?

22 A Closter Farm.

23 Q Are you supervising that, or are you the

24 production supervisor over that operation?

25 A Yeah, production supervisor there.

167ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Who has the decision-making authority for

2 New Hope South, or who is making the decision whether or

3 not to swap that land, to swap the New Hope South

4 farmlands?

5 A Don Carson.

6 Q Have you ever discussed that issue with him?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Have you ever discussed that issue with

9 either Alfonso Fanjul or either of the other Fanjul

10 brothers?

11 A No.

12 Q You've discussed it with none of the

13 Fanjuls?

14 A No.

15 Q Showing you -- maybe he can refer to your

16 copy. It will be a little easier -- Exhibit 5, these are

17 the test reports from the IFAS lab up at Bell Glade, the

18 soil test lab you were talking about earlier?

19 A Yes.

20 Q So that I understand it, going across the

21 categories on the very first page 1077336, is that, the

22 lab number, New Hope South's number, or is that something

23 that you just take as a given from the lab?

24 A That's given from the lab.

25 Q And the next area is field and there is a

168ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 six-digit number and a letter, number, letter, letter,

2 and some numbers. Do those relate to any specific way of

3 identifying the actual field or plot --

4 A Yes.

5 Q -- to which that sample relates?

6 A Yes.

7 Q How, in fact, does that work? Is that

8 related to the township and range designation of the

9 fields, or is that an internal designation of your

10 company?

11 A The internal designation where they say L-5

12 northwest 1.

13 Q So that's a New Hope South designation?

14 A Right.

15 Q And those are reflected on your charts of

16 crops, for example, that you provided as well today?

17 A Yes.

18 Q I don't see any letters on those. How do

19 you cross-reference Exhibit 5's list with what is in --

20 let's go ahead and make this composite Exhibit 6, which

21 is the fertilizer plant cane chart, 1989, with colored

22 blocks down through fertilizer plant cane '92. And those

23 would be Bates stamps Nos. NHS 1077369 through 1077379,

24 continuous pages.

25 ///

169ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 (Recio Exhibit 6(1-11) was marked

2 for identification by the reporter and is

3 included herewith.)

4 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Can you

5 cross-reference those?

6 A Yes. The "L" is for this New Hope where you

7 have back there (indicating).

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: The witness is referring

9 to NHS 1077372.

10 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay.

11 THE WITNESS: Some have letters, and some

12 don't.

13 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: All right. Okay.

14 And then the next heading is "Texture," and it appears

15 that they all say "muck"; is that right?

16 A Uh-huh.

17 Q Okay. So that's a reference to the soil

18 type?

19 A Right.

20 Q The next heading is "Soil Test Values"?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q And "pH" is acidity?

23 A Correct.

24 Q What is "Pa"?

25 A Pa, phosphorus as a water extraction.

170ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q And what's "Pw"?

2 A No. Excuse me. "Pa" is acid extraction.

3 "Pw" is water extraction.

4 Q "K" is potassium?

5 A "K" is potassium.

6 Q "Ca" is calcium rather?

7 A Calcium.

8 Q "Mg" is magnesium?

9 A Yes, and "Na" is sodium.

10 Q Why is "Na" handwritten in instead of --

11 A Because usually the lab doesn't give --

12 don't make the test for the rest of the agriculture

13 people, and our people request this level of Na.

14 Q How do you employ the Na value?

15 A It have some relation like the calcium.

16 Q The next heading is "Crop," and under that

17 for each field it says, "Plant Cane, 1st Ratoon,

18 2nd Ratoon," and "3rd Ratoon." Can you tell from this

19 where you are in the plant cycle on that particular field

20 or --

21 A The test been done prior to planting, and

22 IFAS is giving you the recommendation on what should be

23 applied at the planting time and 1st ratoon, 2nd ratoon,

24 and 3rd ratoon.

25 Q And that's in pounds per acre recommended?

171ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Correct, pounds per acre of P205, K20.

2 Q Copper, magnesium, zinc.

3 A Boron.

4 Q And what's that? Boron, lime, and sulfur?

5 A And sulfur.

6 Q What is the purpose of putting sulfur on the

7 soil?

8 A To modify the pH.

9 Q The pH?

10 A Or excuse me. Let me qualify that. Not to

11 modify the pH because probably by that quantity you would

12 not actually modify the pH, but you make the nutrients

13 more available by it.

14 Q More uptake by the plant tissue?

15 A Right.

16 Q The pH of the soils, at least on the first

17 page we're looking at, are just about neutral, are they

18 not?

19 A No. Neutral is seven. Whatever is below

20 seven is acidic.

21 Q You're looking at 6.5 as the lowest to 6.9.

22 That's pretty close.

23 A When IFAS recommended the sulfur, it is

24 because they consider it is acid.

25 Q Uniformly on that first page, IFAS is

172ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 recommending that at the 1st ratoon, 2nd ratoon, and

2 3rd ratoon that you put 40 pounds of --

3 A P2O5.

4 Q -- P2O5 per acre.

5 The recommendation for the plant cane varies

6 from 60 pounds per acre to zero pounds per acre. That's

7 mostly zero; one 40.

8 Does New Hope South invariably follow the

9 recommendation with regard to the plant cane application?

10 A Basically.

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to that question

12 to the extent it followed from what I believe was

13 a misquote on the document, but the document

14 speaks for itself, but just for the record.

15 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay.

16 Q With respect to the plant cane application,

17 when is that fertilizer actual applied? Before the seed

18 cane is put in or simultaneously?

19 (Whereupon Mr. Tarr left the deposition

20 proceedings.)

21 THE WITNESS: Not exactly simultaneously

22 but just the moment before.

23 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. When is the

24 1st ratoon application broadcast on the field?

25 A After you cut your plant cane crop.

173ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q After it's harvested?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Although they indicate a 3rd ratoon, you

4 don't always allow a 3rd ratoon from the field, do you?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q In fact, from the way you described it

7 earlier, am I correct that you really look at the plant

8 cane as your first growth and what they call the

9 "1st ratoon" you say is your second?

10 A No, my first.

11 Q You call that the first ratoon. So you only

12 allow two ratoons?

13 A One -- two ratoon and one seed is two, three

14 years.

15 Q Can you look at that document and find any

16 instance where you did not accept the recommendation and

17 applied a different amount?

18 A Here it doesn't say. I by memory cannot

19 say.

20 Q What document, if any, at New Hope South

21 would be available to tell somebody that you didn't

22 follow the recommendation? Well, if you can, go down to

23 page 348. Do you understand the notations at the top of

24 the page?

25 A Yes.

174ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q And does the word "recommendation"

2 underlined twice on the page and in a couple places it

3 says "Before Plowing." What does the "Before Plowing"

4 mean?

5 A Sometimes the experimental station recommend

6 you apply your fertilizer down and then plow under

7 fertilizer.

8 Q What's the purpose of that?

9 A Just to make a uniform distribution of

10 whatever they recommend of some element. They consider

11 it will work better that way.

12 Q And they're recommending you do that before

13 planting the seed cane?

14 A Yes.

15 Q In fact, did New Hope South follow that

16 recommendation, to your knowledge?

17 A More or less.

18 Q If you're applying the fertilizer before

19 plowing and planting of the seed cane -- when you say

20 "plowing," you just mean discing it in?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Am I correct that that fertilizer would have

23 been applied by broadcast, then?

24 A Yes.

25 Q So in November of 1990, at least on those

175ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 two occasions or on those two fields, lab 165 and 171 --

2 those at least would have definitely been broadcast

3 fertilization?

4 A IFAS recommended on some occasions for you

5 to broadcast your fertilizer and then disc it in.

6 Q The other recommendations, for example,

7 No. 166, the second one on that page, where they

8 recommend, they recommend you put none on for the plant

9 cane. Let's find another page.

10 Let's go back to the very first page because

11 I know it was there. If you look at lab sample 70, third

12 from the bottom --

13 A Uh-huh.

14 Q -- the recommendation was 40 pounds per acre

15 of P2O5 at the plant-cane stage. There is no way to

16 determine from any records available to you or to New

17 Hope South whether that was broadcast or banded, is

18 there?

19 A No.

20 Q Now, going back to page 348, the one we were

21 just discussing with the notations on it where the word

22 "Recommendation" is underlined at the top of the page,

23 what does that handwritten note mean to you?

24 A The SPC mean successive planting. That

25 means the land was not in true rotation but was, after

176ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 harvested, being prepared and planted back again.

2 Q The "0-5-47," that's your field designation?

3 A No. That's a fertilizer mixture formula.

4 Q Okay. "Section 22" below that, what does

5 that mean?

6 A That means that that was the recommendation

7 for Section 22.

8 Q Which is a geographical section of about

9 640 acres, a section of land?

10 A Yes.

11 Q So if I find Section 22 in your charts, they

12 were recommending you put a fertilizer 0-5-47 -- what do

13 each of those numbers mean?

14 A The first one is nitrogen. The second one

15 is phosphorus. The third one is potash.

16 Q And the "5," that is P205, or phosphorus?

17 A P2O5.

18 Q Next it says 425 pounds per acre. To what

19 does that refer, if you can tell me?

20 A That's pounds of that mixture of 0-5-47 with

21 .48, 1.19, .48, and .24.

22 Q And those would be respectively of copper

23 manganese, zinc, and boron?

24 A And boron.

25 Q And on the 425 pounds in a mixture of

177ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 0-5-47, how many pounds of P2O5 does that translate into?

2 A You have to multiply 5 times 425 and divide

3 by a hundred.

4 Q About 21.25 pounds per acre, then?

5 A It's a percentage. It's 5 percent of the

6 425.

7 Q That's right, then. Okay. At the top of

8 the page it says 400 pounds per acre of something that's

9 not totally clear. Next to it in parentheses is 0-7-40

10 or 48, depending on how you read that. Can you tell me

11 what that means? It says "Applied." To the left of it,

12 is that word "Applied extra" --

13 A Extra copper.

14 Q Does that mean 400 pounds per acre of extra

15 copper was applied?

16 A That means that instead of putting in

17 formula of 425 pounds per acre of the 0-5-47, they apply

18 400 only of 0-7-42.

19 Q Oh, that's a "2."

20 A The results is more or less the same.

21 Q Okay. And when you acquire your fertilizer

22 in bulk, you order it by a formula that's premixed when

23 you get it --

24 A Yes.

25 Q -- correct?

178ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 So would this be an instance where field --

2 can you read that? Section 22 on that page refers to the

3 particular fields or lab numbers down the left side of

4 that page, or are the first six lab samples all in

5 section 220 -- I'm sorry -- Section 22? Would Section 22

6 equate to this on the Shelton Lands?

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: Give us a base number

8 that we can look at.

9 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: 374.

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Let him look at the one

11 that has the color, these (indicating).

12 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: These have a "22"

13 in the number. That's the only one I could find.

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: He's referring to the

15 fact that the middle number is 22.

16 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.

17 (Discussion off the record.)

18 THE WITNESS: What was your question?

19 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'm trying to

20 figure out where Section 22 falls?

21 A It's this one down here (indicating).

22 Q So it was the one I indicated on --

23 A Yeah, that one (indicating).

24 Q And would that then relate, on the page in

25 which that note appears, to the first six fields?

179ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Uh-huh.

2 Q 68 222, 68 224, 68 226?

3 A Well, actually, it is not 22-6. 22-2, 22-4,

4 22-8, and the field number is 2, 4, 8.

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Slight objection. You

6 mentioned 22-6. I don't believe that is on this

7 page you're referring to.

8 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: 228. It skips "6."

9 That's correct. Okay.

10 Q There are some documents in Exhibit 5 on

11 paper letterhead of Royal Fertilizer & Chemical Company.

12 Is that the firm utilized by New Hope South to apply its

13 chemicals?

14 A That's the one who sell the fertilizer.

15 (Whereupon Mr. Tarr entered the deposition

16 proceedings.)

17 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: So that's the

18 fertilizer source but not the --

19 A Fertilizer source.

20 Q -- but not the application company.

21 Whose initials are "M.F.U."?

22 A New Hope South.

23 Q M.F.U., page 356 further down in that same

24 set, next to the last page.

25 A That's one of our agronomists,

180ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Modesto Ulloa.

2 MR. TARR: U-l-l-o-a.

3 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Is Mr. Ulloa --

4 A Ulloa.

5 Q -- Ulloa responsible for reviewing the

6 recommendations of the soil test lab?

7 A Yes. He's assistant in the research

8 department in Okeelanta.

9 Q Would he be responsible for recommending or

10 making these notes for alternative application rates and

11 formulas?

12 A He's a soil specialist or fertilizer

13 specialist.

14 Q Before making that type of decision, does he

15 have to discuss that with you?

16 A No.

17 Q Does he have to discuss it with Mr. Garcia?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Mr. -- I'm not even going to try it again.

20 Is this a recommendation, what he puts here, or must

21 you -- must the farm manager follow that?

22 A He make a recommendation. The farm manager

23 doesn't have to follow that exactly. He might have some

24 other reason not to follow.

25 Q The next stapled set beginning with

181ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 No. 1077358 has a notation on it, "Shelton Rice Fields."

2 To what does that refer?

3 A That's a soil test probably been done before

4 or after the rice was planted.

5 Q Is there any way to tell at which stage of

6 the growth that's occurring?

7 A No. That was prior to planting.

8 Q How are you able to tell that?

9 A By the day received and the day completed on

10 the soil test on the right-hand side.

11 Q Because it's early February?

12 A Correct.

13 Q You know you haven't planted yet?

14 A Correct.

15 Q When do you --

16 A By the last day of February or first of

17 March.

18 Q When is it ready for its first harvest?

19 A More or less a hundred day after you plant

20 it, and you are staggering the planting.

21 Q There is no recommended fertilization

22 reflected on that page. Is that because you do not

23 normally fertilize rice?

24 A Normally, we don't fertilize rice unless

25 it's strictly recommended by the station.

182ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q When New Hope South leases out land for

2 rotational crops that it's not growing itself for sugar

3 corn -- sweet corn, rather, or radishes. The property

4 you mentioned with regard to Mr. Hundley and

5 Mr. Vandegrift, was that New Hope South land that was

6 being leased to them on occasion?

7 A No. I don't think we have leased any land

8 from New Hope South.

9 Q So New Hope South land is only farmed by New

10 Hope South in cane and rice?

11 A That's up to now.

12 Q Do you have plans to lease any of that land

13 out for other purposes?

14 A No, specifically. But I don't want to --

15 Q It could happen?

16 A -- hold myself in that position.

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: When you come to an

18 appropriate spot, if you want, let's take a

19 break.

20 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I'll just see if

21 there's anything left on this.

22 Q Two pages from the bottom of that, No. 366,

23 there are some handwritten notes at the top on the right,

24 which indicates two sections to sample: 68-3 west and

25 68-4 east. Can you tell me to what that refers?

183ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A No. Only that they say to sample.

2 Q Can't --

3 A They might have some doubt in regard to the

4 results of one of tests and want to sample again.

5 Q The notes at the top of the page with the

6 chemical formulas 300 pounds, 250 pounds -- can you tell

7 us whose writing that is?

8 A No.

9 Q Further down, the handwritten note,

10 "Recommendation 0-0-51" with mineral. Is that "mineral"?

11 A That's where you are.

12 Q You think it's "mineral"?

13 A With minors.

14 Q Minors, m-i-n-o-r-s. Okay. At 385 pounds

15 per acre?

16 A Yes.

17 Q The minors that are referred to are under

18 the recommended pounds per acre, the magnesium through

19 sulfur entries?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And nitrogen P2O5 and K20 are considered the

22 majors?

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q Those are normally the only ones you see

25 reflected in the three-number formula?

184ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A That's right.

2 Q Who would have made the annotations there

3 with the formulas down the left side of the page, the

4 handwritten notes and poundages?

5 A I think made by Ulloa.

6 Q Can you tell why he's got circled the "292"

7 on lab sample? The sample is missing. It didn't copy,

8 but the last entry, typewritten entry on plant cane "292"

9 is circled, and it says "omit".

10 A That's probably a typo we have there, and

11 that's why they put that.

12 Q Would 292 be an out of line or an excessive

13 potassium value for the EAA?

14 A Yes.

15 Q On the next page, 367, there's a note in the

16 middle of the page it says, "Proposed 1990 (Rice)." What

17 does that mean?

18 A That land, probably planning to put it on

19 rice.

20 Q This report appears to be prepared -- from

21 the previous page, completed on October 5th of '89. If

22 you were planning rice for the subsequent season, you

23 would expect to plant it by the end of February, you

24 said?

25 A Yeah, but not on the same year you plant the

185ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 cane.

2 Q So it would be '90?

3 A Uh-huh.

4 Q Does this note mean that in field 681012,

5 you would not fertilize it because you're going to put it

6 in rice instead?

7 A You're going to put it in rice because

8 you're going to take your cane out. You're no longer

9 going to fertilize.

10 Q Do they sample the field when it is in cane

11 if you are planning to do a plant cane after that

12 harvest? Do you understand what I mean? You have the

13 second ratoon in the field, and you have not harvested it

14 yet by October, which is when this report was done in

15 '89, and they're telling you what you should put down as

16 fertilizer for your plant cane. That indicates that

17 they're assuming you're going to replant.

18 A This is the case because they submit the

19 soil test to the lab --

20 Q Yes.

21 A -- just after harvesting the last crop --

22 Q Okay.

23 A -- prior to planting.

24 Q So the sample that was taken for that

25 purpose, the 19 samples were received by the lab on

186ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 September 27. Those fields were already harvested by

2 that time?

3 A Those fields cannot be on cane.

4 Q For the sampling. So they are --

5 A They have been on rotation.

6 Q They have been harvested, and they would

7 have been at least on their second ratoon, or you would

8 not have sampled them; correct?

9 A I didn't follow your question.

10 Q They've been harvested. There's nothing in

11 the field. But you told me earlier that you only sample

12 before your plant cane?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Which means the harvest you just did --

15 A Yes.

16 Q -- was second ratoon at least?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And for some of them, it might have been

19 third ratoon?

20 A And for some it might be first or --

21 Q Because the production was such that you

22 decided not to allow it to ratoon?

23 A Assuming you do a plant cane and they came

24 heavy rain like the one we have this year and your field

25 doesn't have a good standing, you harvest it next year

187ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 and put it back in cane.

2 Q Replant it?

3 A Replant it because you cannot afford to go

4 three years with a bad stand of cane.

5 Q So if the density is bad because of weather

6 conditions or whatever --

7 A Correct.

8 Q -- you'll take it out after a year and

9 replant it?

10 A Yes. We try not to do because you should

11 have more time for planting at least three crops to

12 amoritize your costs.

13 Q Can you recover your planting costs with two

14 crops?

15 A You're asking me a question I really don't

16 know.

17 Q But three definitely?

18 A Three definitely because that's what the

19 whole area tries to do minimum.

20 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I think that is a

21 good time for a break.

22 (Recess.)

23 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Other than the

24 consumptive-use permit issued by the South Florida Water

25 Management District, what other permits are required by

188ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 New Hope South in order to farm in the EAA?

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the extent

3 it calls for a legal conclusion.

4 You can go ahead and respond.

5 THE WITNESS: The only permits that I'm

6 familiar with are the South Florida Water

7 Management drainage and irrigation.

8 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: In applying for

9 the BMP rule permit that's pending right now that

10 Hutcheon's Engineering is working on, did New Hope South

11 opt for the early baseline?

12 A No.

13 Q Are you familiar --

14 A No, it doesn't.

15 Q It did not. Why did you decide not to opt

16 for the early baseline?

17 A Because it was not necessary to apply for

18 any baseline.

19 Q Prior to making that decision, did

20 Hutcheon's Engineering test the quality of the discharge

21 water from New Hope South?

22 A No.

23 Q When you have storm events during the year,

24 is the discharge from cane fields reused on fallow or

25 rice-producing fields?

189ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A If we have frost or growing rice at that

2 time, we primarily are pumping on there.

3 Q Do you have any written instructions to your

4 field personnel to operate the pumps so that during a

5 storm event the water is reused rather than discharged to

6 the canal system?

7 A Not in writing.

8 Q Who trains the pump operators?

9 A The managers.

10 Q So that would be Mr. Garcia --

11 A Correct.

12 Q -- for New Hope South?

13 Prior to the water-management practice

14 change of a year ago, during the four years or so that

15 New Hope South has been operating, have you altered any

16 farming practices for water-quality reasons?

17 A No.

18 Q Do you keep for New Hope South a document

19 that in the industry is sometimes referred to as an

20 inventory book of your fields that estimate production

21 rates prior to harvest?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Were they provided in response to the

24 original request for production --

25 A Yes.

190ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q -- in this case?

2 What other documents did you provide in

3 response to the original request for production?

4 A I by memory cannot say. I would have to

5 review what were provided.

6 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Mark, may he take a

7 look at that? That will at least jog his memory

8 if anything is left.

9 THE WITNESS: That's in regard to the rice

10 operation.

11 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Yes?

12 A And where you have rice in the field, the

13 iron was applied.

14 Q What's the purpose of applying iron to your

15 fields?

16 A If soil has lack of iron, you need to apply

17 iron to be able to produce rice.

18 Q When you apply iron to peat soils, it raises

19 the acidity of the soils, doesn't it?

20 A I don't think so.

21 Q What form --

22 A I don't know.

23 Q What form is the iron in that you apply?

24 A Oxide probably.

25 You have the rice production on per-field

191ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 basis. This one is called the land distribution where

2 the map, it should be saying what is going to be in

3 rotation, what are going to be in rice, and what are

4 going to be in cane. You have that for the different

5 years.

6 This other one is a comparison of the field

7 completed, the results, and where you have the acre

8 harvested, the actual tons being produced, the estimated

9 ton prior to the field. The estimated ton per acre is

10 the difference in either over or under the number of acre

11 harvested and the number of acre used; the number of

12 acres in this case have been abandoned or have not been

13 harvested. That's all information in here on a per-year

14 basis.

15 Q That's per year. Is it per field, or is it

16 collated for your entire New Hope South operation?

17 A No. It's for the New Hope South by the two

18 areas.

19 Q Okay. By area. How do you designate the

20 areas? Do you designate them by farm name or --

21 A Farm 50 and Farm 51.

22 Q Farm 50 is the eastern or western farm?

23 A 50 is the eastern.

24 Q 50 is eastern; 51 is western?

25 A Uh-huh.

192ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q For 1988 can you tell me what your

2 production levels were?

3 A 1988 in yield per acre?

4 Q That's if you had a full harvest that year

5 or whatever your harvest was.

6 A '90 is the first year -- '91.

7 Q '91 is your first year. For a '91 harvest

8 year, when would that crop year actually end?

9 A Crop years, they start in October and has

10 been -- for instance the crop at '90 start in October '88

11 and finish in, let's say, March the following year.

12 Q Okay. Start October '88, if you plant the

13 crop --

14 A No. If you plant in October, you will

15 harvest that cane on the following crop year. That will

16 be -- let's say, you plant it October '88 --

17 Q You harvest October --

18 A -- you harvest it in January of --

19 Q -- '89?

20 A No. '90.

21 Q So what's the earliest harvest year for New

22 Hope South that you've provided the data on?

23 A The first report here I have is 12-31-89.

24 Q What was your crop yield per acre?

25 A 30.45 tons per acre.

193ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q That's short tons?

2 A Yes.

3 Q What was your sugar yield per acre?

4 A It doesn't show in this report.

5 Q Does it show your sugar production?

6 A No, it doesn't.

7 Q Crop tonnage?

8 A Yes.

9 Q For 1990 what was your crop yield per acre?

10 A But that's at the beginning. That's crop

11 '90-'91 'cause it started in November, and we will have

12 to look at the field final report. No?

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay.

14 THE WITNESS: For instance, I have here

15 this one (indicating) --

16 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Yes?

17 A -- which is dated 2-25-90.

18 I assume that might be the last report of

19 that year.

20 Q Yes?

21 A And where it say that the tonnage per

22 acreage, 31.50 -- .55.

23 Q If you could, give me the same number for

24 the two succeeding crop years if you have the reports

25 there.

194ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A They are mixing one with the other. This

2 one is -- is 51.

3 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Counsel is

4 requested not to confuse the witness with his

5 assistance.

6 THE WITNESS: Do you know what is confusing -- here

7 is the report -- is not the total average production for

8 any particular year because it's ground on Atlantic or

9 land on Atlantic, and there is a report that each one of

10 the mills sent with the results of those particular

11 fields, but it doesn't give you the total average at the

12 end of the crop.

13 Q Are there such reports? Does such a report

14 exist?

15 A At the end of the report -- let me look into

16 another report, not this one. This one is by fields. It

17 doesn't have the computation of the total.

18 Q Do the reports, as you're viewing them

19 there, the three thickest reports -- how do they relate

20 to the 50 and 51 units? Is there a separate -- are they

21 separated by farm areas to 50 and 51?

22 A By the field number, it can be separated,

23 but apparently this report are the report that has been

24 sent back with the mill.

25 Q Those are the grind reports?

195ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A In other words, the mill kept track of the

2 records and sent back.

3 Q Each mill each year, because you've always

4 used two mills, sent a grind report for the portions that

5 they have dealt with?

6 A Actual grind.

7 Q Does New Hope South collate those grind

8 reports into a single report that determines the average

9 yield per acre, crop yield per acre, and the sugar yield

10 per acre?

11 A No.

12 Q How do you assess the success of your

13 growing and harvesting effort in a given year if you

14 don't collate that number somehow?

15 A We review on a day-to-day basis the result

16 of each one of the fields, and I don't remember now

17 making a submission at the end of crop year of the

18 operative result of the whole farm.

19 Q Do you determine a total rather than an

20 average? A total production for the farm either in raw

21 cane, sugar production, or recovery rates?

22 A At the level of the farm, in this case, New

23 Hope South, on tracking sugar or sugar production we are

24 using gross ton.

25 Q Do you track recovery rates from your gross

196ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 tons for the farm?

2 A No.

3 Q What was your gross tonnage, then, in those

4 years, in the years that we were just speaking of, 1989

5 to date of production? What were your gross tonnages of

6 your approximately 27,000 acres? Can you determine that

7 from your reports?

8 A I by memory cannot answer. The reports --

9 Q Can you find it in the reports?

10 A No. That's what I was looking for. As I

11 say, it's on a field-per-day basis. Any data they have

12 to complete the field, they give information.

13 Q So --

14 A It doesn't have the compilation at the end

15 of the crop.

16 Q What's the smallest field-management unit

17 you have in terms of the size? What's your smallest

18 field in acres?

19 A 35, 40 acres.

20 Q What's your largest?

21 A All are more or less the same.

22 Q Looking back over time, how do you determine

23 if a particular field is productive, or how do you

24 determine if a field needs to be looked at more closely

25 because production is falling off if you don't maintain

197ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 average rates for the entire farm? I mean, do you have a

2 sense of what your average production rates are in any

3 given year?

4 A I personally have a sense of what each field

5 should produce in a gross ton by the age of the field.

6 Q For the 50 and 51 units, if they're

7 different -- maybe they're the same -- what kind of

8 production did you experience in terms of gross tons per

9 acre in the '89 harvest season?

10 A On the '89? Specifically on the '89?

11 Q Well, you gave a date of one of the reports

12 of 12-30-89 as one of end-of-year reports?

13 A That's what I assume.

14 Q You said 30.45 short tons, which looks like

15 an average crop yield per acre for that harvest, and then

16 for 2-25-90, you said 31.55 short tons. And I guess what

17 I'm asking is: Are those numbers reasonably solid?

18 A Are reasonable.

19 Q And they fall within what you would have

20 expected or from your memory recollect as --

21 A Yes.

22 Q -- being roughly --

23 Can you do the same thing for the two

24 subsequent years since then, January-February '91 and

25 January-February '92? And is the '93 report done yet?

198ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A I don't think there's a big difference

2 between one year primarily in the last three or four.

3 Q From '89 to '90, the two reports you looked

4 at went up a little, 1.1 short tons per acre on the

5 average. Has that increase continued? Has there been a

6 slight but steady increase?

7 A Let's put this way. We have increased

8 tonnage per acre since we operate the farm.

9 Q So the trend line of those two years, such

10 as it is, two years not being much of a trend line in

11 your sense, is that your production per year per acre has

12 kind of gone up steadily. Do you have an estimation of

13 what your production per acre will be or was in the

14 harvest that's just been completed? Is your harvest over

15 yet?

16 A Not yet.

17 Q Not quite for this harvest year. That's

18 just being completed. What kind of production rates are

19 you experiencing?

20 A I will expect at least in the range of 35

21 tons per acre.

22 Q 35 tons per acre. Okay.

23 A I mean average.

24 Q Average production. Do you see a difference

25 in production rates in between 50 and 51?

199ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes.

2 Q Which one has the higher rates?

3 A 50.

4 Q That's the eastern?

5 A The eastern.

6 Q To what do you attribute that, if anything?

7 A Better water control, among other things.

8 Q And that's related to the seepage issue out

9 of the Holey Land, you think?

10 A Yes.

11 Q The Holey Land provides too much water?

12 A Yes.

13 Q So you pump all the time?

14 A I would not say all the time. It has to be

15 more often than in another farm that is only by rain.

16 Q I may have misunderstood you. I thought you

17 said you have to pump continuously.

18 A No. You tried to ask me that question

19 before.

20 Q I -- okay. I may have just not paid enough

21 attention to your answer. The U.S. Department of

22 Agriculture reports, for the years we just discussed that

23 you've been in production at New Hope South, say that for

24 the entire EAA, the average crop yield per acres have

25 been 31.4, 35.5, 34.9 and then 35.3, which is an

200ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 estimation because that projects into the coming year.

2 But that range of 31.4 to roughly almost, well, 35 and a

3 half, does that match generally the production rates that

4 you experienced at New Hope South?

5 A We can say yes.

6 Q You would say that's a fairly reliable --

7 A Yes.

8 Q -- gauge?

9 Do the production rates you enjoy at New

10 Hope South, in your experience and based on your

11 knowledge of the area, generally reflect those production

12 rates on average?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Is there a wide variance in production from

15 field to field?

16 A Yes.

17 Q What factors affect the production rates

18 from field to field?

19 A Age.

20 Q So you can't compare a plant seed crop with

21 a second ratoon?

22 A No.

23 Q You expect to have a lower production?

24 A Yes.

25 Q But on average, those numbers look --

201ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A Yes.

2 Q -- reasonable to you?

3 A Yes.

4 Q In your reports on a per field-by-day basis,

5 the grind reports tell you what your yield is per acre;

6 right?

7 A My tonnage per acre.

8 Q In short tons? Sugar yield in short tons?

9 A Yeah.

10 Q For the same years that we worked up these

11 other numbers, the USDA has reported baseline information

12 provided by the industry in Florida a sugar yield per

13 acre in short tons of 3.88, 3.435, 4.31, 4.28, and they

14 projected something over 4 short tons per acre in the out

15 year, which is probably not terribly germane since it

16 hasn't happened yet.

17 Do those numbers fall within the range of

18 what you were seeing and have seen at New Hope South

19 during that same time period?

20 A My question is to look at New Hope South in

21 a gross ton of cane per acre. The number you are giving

22 me are --

23 Q Is yield.

24 A -- number of sugar per acre.

25 Q So you only look at the number we were

202ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 discussing earlier?

2 A The tonnage.

3 Q The average tons yield per acre?

4 A Right.

5 Q So you don't look at sugar production at

6 all?

7 A I would say no. That's a number that might

8 have been compiled by trying to determine the amount of

9 sugar. That would be the way they predict its possible

10 sugar production.

11 Q Do you receive reports from the mills on the

12 recovery rate from your raw tonnage?

13 A No.

14 Q Doesn't all that affect the economics of

15 your operation or --

16 A The mill's report --

17 Q Yes.

18 A -- the level of sucrose on that cane.

19 That doesn't mean the sugar that the mill

20 recoup from that cane.

21 Q They also report sugar production in short

22 tons, don't they?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Do you see that number?

25 A I will say yes.

203ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q Is it in any of the materials you've

2 provided?

3 A No. It doesn't affect the farm operation.

4 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I understand the

5 way the witness is reading and looking at it from

6 his perspective, but it appears to me that the

7 first category of documents to be produced, in

8 fact, would include those figures. If you agree,

9 I assume it's just a couple of reports that can

10 be xeroxed. If you don't, maybe you could

11 explain to me why, and then we can sort that out.

12 But I would like to see those. I

13 think the documents that show the actual

14 production rates on the farms do describe and

15 explain agricultural practices in terms of the

16 return, and that is something I think we're

17 entitled to.

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Give me a five-minute

19 break so I can understand exactly what my witness

20 is talking about.

21 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Then I think we've

22 probably pretty much wrapped this area of

23 discussion.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay.

25 (Recess.)

204ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 MR. KOBELINSKI: I've spoken with

2 Mr. Recio, and perhaps you'll want to follow up

3 with a few questions -- I don't know -- but

4 essentially, I think there's a misunderstanding

5 as to his testimony.

6 Mr. Recio stated that he has seen that

7 information. However, that information is not

8 provided to the growers. He has seen that as an

9 officer of the corporation around the mill. It

10 is not provided to growers; so it is not a New

11 Hope South document whatsoever.

12 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. Let's follow

13 it up.

14 Q Does New Hope South ever receive the

15 information from the mills or any other source as to the

16 recovery rate from the sugar cane, the raw sugar cane

17 tonnage it provides to a mill?

18 A No.

19 Q Does New Hope South ever receive a report

20 from any source of the sugar yield per acre derived from

21 the raw tonnage provided to a mill?

22 A No.

23 Q Does it ever -- New Hope South, again --

24 receive a report indicating the sugar production by short

25 ton raw value from the sugar cane harvested from New Hope

205ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 South lands?

2 A No.

3 Q Have you seen those numbers, those three,

4 four sets of numbers for New Hope South lands?

5 A No. The reason is, when you grind the cane,

6 you mix the cane of several growers together, and you get

7 the sugar at the end. You know the total tons that you

8 grind that day produce so many tons of sugar, but you

9 cannot identify from which grower which portion is.

10 Q You sit on the board of directors of a sugar

11 mill?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Which sugar mill?

14 A Okeelanta.

15 Q You're also director of Osceola?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Osceola has a sugar mill?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Do you see reports from those two sugar

20 mills, in your capacity as a director, that contain that

21 kind of information?

22 A Not on a per grower basis.

23 Q When you see the numbers reflecting the crop

24 yield per acre, the sugar cane production per acre in

25 short tons, raw value, recovery rates, and sugar yield

206ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 per acre as a director of the mills, it is not linked to

2 the particular producer, then, of that sugar cane?

3 A No.

4 Q You simply get a sterile number, that of

5 these thousands of acres harvested, "X" tons per acre is

6 the average yield realized after grind at the mill?

7 That's what you see?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Do you know if the mills provide that data

10 to USDA?

11 A The sugar record?

12 Q The tonnage record, yes, and the recovery

13 rates.

14 A I understand some mills report that.

15 Q Do you know if Okeelanta and Osceola do?

16 A I remember that, when I act as a manager of

17 Osceola, I say I cannot report the sugar per acre per

18 grower because I don't have that information.

19 Q Once it hits the mill, it all looks the

20 same; right? You can't differentiate?

21 A You mix it every day.

22 Q But you know what the mill has ground per

23 ton of produced cane, and you know how many acres have

24 been harvested; so you can determine the production

25 rates?

207ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A We usually do not accustom, the sugar

2 industry here in Florida, to knowing or the determining

3 the amount of sugar per acre. People talk about tonnage

4 per acre, and people talk about sugar yield at the

5 mill --

6 Q Yes.

7 A -- but none turn back and say that means so

8 many tons of sugar per acre.

9 Q I understand that the practice locally in

10 the industry is you don't look at that number. But in

11 fact, from the information at the mill, you can determine

12 that number, can't you?

13 A I imagine it can be done.

14 Q During what period of time did you actually

15 manage Okeelanta mill?

16 A I did not manage Okeelanta mill.

17 Q Did you manage Osceola?

18 A Yes.

19 Q During what period of time was that?

20 A From '75 to '81, '82, '83. I don't remember

21 exactly.

22 Q Since the initial acquisition of land by New

23 Hope South, has New Hope South made any effort to acquire

24 additional land to put into production?

25 A No.

208ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 Q During the period of time you've been a

2 director or officer of the six or seven related corporate

3 entities, have those entities expanded their acreage in

4 production in the EAA?

5 A You mean in my 30 years?

6 Q Yes.

7 A Yes.

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Objection to the form of

9 the question to the extent it refers to a legal

10 opinion.

11 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Okay. Just to

12 satisfy that objection, the corporations in which you are

13 an officer or a director, during the period of time

14 you've been associated with those corporations, have

15 their sugar cane growing activities in the EAA expanded

16 in terms of acreage and production, or have they

17 diminished?

18 A In my 30 years in the sugar industry, the

19 whole sugar industry, I put more acres in cane up to four

20 or five, six, seven years and more or less have been

21 stable.

22 Q When you say stable you mean for the

23 companies you're associated with?

24 A No. I am talking about generally.

25 Q Generally?

209ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A In Florida.

2 Q In the EAA?

3 A That was your question.

4 Q Actually, I asked for the companies you were

5 associated with so that counsel wouldn't object, but I'll

6 take your answer the way it came out. I understand your

7 answer, I think. I don't seem to have numbers that go

8 back to 1962. Oh, yes, I do.

9 USDA reports that in the 1961-62 harvest

10 year, acres in Florida in sugar cane production were

11 115,000 acres. That would have been approximately when

12 you started in the EAA; right?

13 A I started in '62.

14 Q Okay. Does that sound right to you? About

15 115,000 acres?

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: To the extent that you

17 know.

18 Q BY MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: To the extent that

19 you know.

20 A Yeah.

21 Q And the current year not yet harvested

22 necessarily -- it's preliminary number -- they're

23 indicating 428,000 acres in production. Would you agree

24 with that number? That's a good ballpark number if not

25 absolutely precise?

210ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A I cannot agree or disagree. If I saw

2 something prepared by the USDA, I have to assume that is

3 correct.

4 Q You don't have any information to the

5 contrary about the number of acres in production?

6 A Not to say that is correct, not to say that

7 is incorrect.

8 Q Since 1988, that year we talked about that

9 was a record year even though it was kind of a dry year,

10 is it correct to say that every year since, the industry

11 has created or has established in the EAA a new record

12 for production of sugar cane?

13 A We happen to be fortunate during the past

14 three or four years where we have not had a severe freeze

15 that affect any of the crops.

16 Q If you get a freeze, can you still harvest

17 the crop?

18 A All depend.

19 Q On?

20 A If the cane hold when the freeze came in,

21 how cold it was or how long it was, which variety did you

22 have, what kind of weather, did you have a steady freeze,

23 and for how many days after the freeze you still have to

24 go to grind the cane.

25 Q If cane is hit by a relatively brief freeze,

211ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 can you harvest it if you can get it to the mill and

2 process it quickly?

3 A If you can get it to the mill quickly, yes.

4 Q What kind of time frames do you have in

5 which to do that?

6 A It change with the weather.

7 Q The more pronounced the freeze, the longer,

8 the less time you have?

9 A The faster the freeze -- like in Florida,

10 you have a colder spell, and after that cold spell, you

11 have warm weather. Then you have a more fast

12 deterioration than if you have a steady cool weather.

13 Q Does the temperature affect your ability to

14 harvest the crop? In other words, can you harvest when

15 you're under almost a freeze condition or a cold spell?

16 A Depends on the damage that the freeze cause

17 to the cane itself and if immediately after the freeze,

18 you can harvest with no problems or the damage the days

19 after that freeze. Dependent on many factors.

20 Q The factors you were talking about earlier?

21 A Right.

22 Q The length and the weather afterwards. Or

23 over the years has the industry tried to cause to be

24 developed strains of sugar cane that are more

25 freeze-tolerant?

212ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1 A The problem with variety development, in

2 taking into consideration the freeze tolerance trying to

3 develop variety that would be resistant to cold weather,

4 sometimes that cannot be checked because of the timing.

5 Where those varieties have been tested, have not been a

6 severe freeze.

7 Q How many varieties are currently in crop

8 production in 50 and 51?

9 A At least four or five.

10 Q Who makes the selection of what variety to

11 plant when you put out plant cane?

12 A The local manager have a consultation with

13 the research department and the results in each one of

14 the farms before selecting which variety should be

15 planted.

16 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: I think we're

17 concluded.

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Given the questions that have

19 been raised earlier about the names and such, we

20 will not be waiving. We'll go ahead and read.

21 MR. WATTS-FITZGERALD: Thank you very

22 much, Mr. Recio.

23 (Whereupon the deposition was concluded at

24 4:30 p.m.)

25

213ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE

 

 

 

1

2

3

4 ____________________________

5 Witness

6 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME THIS

7 ________ DAY OF ____________________, 1993.

8

9

10

11

12

13 _____________________________

Notary Public in and for

14 the State of Florida at Large

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

214ÿ

BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE