STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF ) FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural ) Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038 ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040 ) and ) ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) ) _____________________ and ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and ) OF HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) ) DR. ROBERT G. QUALLS Petitioners, ) _____________________ ) vs. ) ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an Agency of the State ) of Florida, ) ) Respondent, ) ) and ) ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF ) AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and the ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) ) Intervenors. ) ___________________________________) AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA DECEMBER 9, 1992 - 10:25 A.M. REPORTED BY: CAROL ANN S. YOUNG CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 123 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PETITIONERS: MR. RICK BURGESS MR. WILLIAM H. GREEN PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS ONE BISCAYNE TOWER 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET SUITE 3636 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314 MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000 TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500 FOR THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: MS. SUZAN HILL PONZOLI MR. PAUL L. NETTLETON ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH & SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA KAUFMAN, LTD. 155 SOUTH MIAMI AVENUE 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL SUITE 627 CENTER MIAMI, FLORIDA 33130 100 SE SECOND STREET MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TELEPHONE: (305) 536-4425 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050 FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY: MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN KING, WALKER, LAMBE & CRABTREE SUITE 100, 3708 MAYFAIR STREET POST OFFICE BOX 51549 DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA 27717-1549 TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411 ALSO PRESENT: DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DUKE UNIVERSITY MR. RONALD D. JONES, Ph.D. FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY MR. JIM GRIMSHAW, Ph.D. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT MR. MARK D. MAFFEI, Ph.D. U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE MR. SAM ELSWICK ASPEN SYSTEMS CORPORATION DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 124 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X DEPONENT - DR. ROBERT G. QUALLS - 12/09/92 EXAMINATION BY: PAGES MS. PONZOLI 125-353 MR. NETTLETON 353-445 MR. GREEN 445-450 MR. NETTLETON 450-452 ------------------------------------------------------- E X H I B I T S I N D E X NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED (NO EXHIBITS WERE MARKED DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. QUALLS ON DECEMBER 9, 1992.) ------------------------------------------------------- SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT 453 CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER 454 DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 125 STIPULATIONS ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE RESPONDENT- INTERVENOR, THE DEPOSITION OF DR. ROBERT GERALD QUALLS MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 10:25 A.M. ON DECEMBER 9, 1992, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, DURHAM, N.C., BEFORE CAROL ANN S. YOUNG, A NOTARY PUBLIC. THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED. - - - - - - - - - - - WHEREUPON, ROBERT G. QUALLS, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI: Q. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE? A. ROBERT GERALD QUALLS. Q. DR. QUALLS, WE -- WE'VE MET BEFORE. I'M SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, AND I REPRESENT THE UNITED STATES, A RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR IN THE SWIM CHALLENGE PROCEEDINGS. I THINK I TOLD YOU BEFORE -- IF I DIDN'T, I'LL TELL YOU AGAIN -- I'M A LAYMAN, AND I'LL BE ASKING YOU A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION, PLEASE INDICATE AND DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 126 WE'LL -- WE'LL WORK TO TRY TO COME UP WITH ONE THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND AND I CAN UNDERSTAND AT THE SAME TIME--- A. OKAY. YEAH. Q. ---BECAUSE THERE'S GOING TO BE QUITE A GAP BETWEEN OUR APPRECIATION OF THE MATERIAL. I'LL BE ASKING YOU SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU PRODUCED -- ABOUT YOUR DOCUMENT PRODUCTION AND YOUR ANNUAL REPORTS--- A. OKAY. Q. ---AND THEN JUST YOUR GENERAL WORK IN THE EVERGLADES ON BEHALF OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. OKAY? A. OKAY. Q. I THINK I'D LIKE TO START WITH THE PUBLICATION CALLED "FORMS OF SOIL PHOSPHORUS ALONG A NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT RADIANT--- A. OKAY. Q. ---IN THE NORTHERN EVERGLADES." I BELIEVE THIS IS -- IS THIS CHAPTER EIGHT IN THE '92 ANNUAL REPORT? A. YEAH, I THINK SO. Q. OKAY. I AM ADVISED, DR. QUALLS, THAT THIS '92 ANNUAL REPORT IS A DRAFT REPORT, AND WILL BE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 127 COMING OUT IN FINAL FORM SOMETIME IN JANUARY. IS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. I HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF SOME CORRECTIONS THAT WOULD BE MADE IN DR. CRAFT'S WORK REGARDING BULK DENSITIES. ARE THERE ANY CORRECTIONS IN YOUR WORK, THAT YOU RECALL? A. YEAH. THERE WERE A FEW, I'D SAY MINOR TYPOS--- Q. OKAY. A. ---YOU KNOW, NOTHING THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANY NUMBERS, SO FAR AS I KNOW YET, AND -- BUT LET'S SEE, ON ONE FIGURE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY IN CHAPTER SIX -- CHAPTER SIX -- CHAPTER SIX, FIGURE 6-28, THE BAR ON THE FURTHEST TO THE RIGHT SIDE, I BELIEVE--- MR. NETTLETON: WHICH PAGE? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ONE SECOND, WHICH PAGE DR. QUALLS? A. THAT'S 260. THERE'S A BAR ON THE FAR RIGHT-HAND SIDE, WHICH I BELIEVE SAYS IS APPROXIMATELY 7.9 ON THE PAGE; AND THAT SHOULD ACTUALLY BE 79, RATHER THAN 7.9. Q. IT SHOULD BE--- MR. NETTLETON: THE LIGHT EXPOSED? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 128 WITNESS: THAT'S RIGHT, YES. MS. PONZOLI: ALL THE WAY UP TO THERE? DR. RICHARDSON: THAT ONE SHOULD BE 79. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) SO, I'VE ALTERED MINE ACCURATELY? (MS. PONZOLI SHOWS DOCUMENT TO WITNESS.) A. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. A. OH, THAT'S A NICE COLOR, TOO, FOR YOU. SINCE IT'S LIGHT EXPOSED, IT'S YELLOW. Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE THAT MIGHT HAVE SUBSTANTIVE MEANING TO IT--- A. THERE'S NO OTHERS--- Q. ---THAT YOU CAN RECALL? A. ---NO OTHER REAL SUBSTANTIVE THINGS. Q. OKAY. IT MIGHT JUST BE A WORD OR A SPELLING OR A SENTENCE OR SOMETHING? A. RIGHT, YES. Q. OKAY. OKAY, I APPRECIATE THAT. IF SOMETHING ELSE COMES TO MIND IN THE COURSE OF THE DAY, IF YOU REMEMBER SOMETHING ELSE, LET US KNOW. OKAY? A. OKAY. Q. OKAY, RETURNING TO YOUR -- YOUR PAPER, "FORMS OF SOIL PHOSPHORUS ALONG A NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 129 GRADIENT IN THE NORTHERN EVERGLADES," WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY CHAPTER EIGHT, I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU, FIRST, JUST SO I HAVE A FRAME OF REFERENCE, AND BECAUSE OTHER DEPONENTS HAVE BEEN TELLING ME FOR SEVERAL DAYS IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS THAT THESE WERE THE QUESTIONS I SHOULD ASK YOU--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---I'D LIKE FOR YOU TO DEFINE FOR ME SOME PARAMETERS AND SOME NUMBERS. I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO DEFINE ENRICHED AND UNENRICHED FOR ME, IF YOU CAN, IN TERMS OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN THE SURFACE WATER AND IN THE SOIL. NOW, IT WAS BROKEN YESTERDAY ON ONE CHART THAT WE DID WITH DR. CRAFT--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---INTO ENRICHED HIGH, AND THEN THERE WAS AN INTERMEDIATE, AND A LOW--- A. YES. Q. ---AND THEN THERE WAS AN UNENRICHED. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. CAN YOU DO IT IN THOSE FOUR CATEGORIES FOR ME, OR DO YOU THINK OF IT ONLY IN TERMS OF THREE? A. WELL, IN THIS PARTICULAR PAPER, WHEN I USE THE WORDS ENRICHED--- DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 130 Q. OKAY. A. ---AND UNENRICHED, THAT WAS SIMPLY A SIMPLIFICATION, AND IT'S USED IN A RELATIVE WAY. AND ENRICHED, I MEAN, BY BEING SIMPLY SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER IN VARIOUS FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS, THAN THE UNENRICHED AREA. AND I DEFINE UNENRICHED AS REPRESENTING WHAT THE BACKGROUND OF THE REST OF THE EVERGLADES WOULD LIKELY BE. AND PART OF THAT WAS ALSO SUPPORTED BY SOME OF DR. RICHARDSON AND CRAFT'S WORK IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3A, IN THE SENSE THAT THE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS CONTENT OF THE SOIL WAS FAIRLY SIMILAR AT OUR FURTHEST PLOTS ALONG THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A. IN SUMMARY, IT WAS SIMPLY A RELATIVE TERM TO SIMPLIFY THE ORGANIZATION OF THE DATA ALONG WHAT IS REALLY A GRADIENT, AND REALLY MORE OR LESS VARIES CONTINUOUSLY ALONG THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT. SO, I WOULD NOT PUT ANY SPECIFIC DEFINITION OF A CERTAIN LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOIL OR IN THE WATER, AS NECESSARY TO BEING THE CUTOFF FOR BEING ENRICHED, OR UNENRICHED, SIMPLY RELATIVE TERMS. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 131 Q. ALL RIGHT. LET ME -- LET ME JUST -- WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK WITH THIS CONCEPT A LITTLE BIT HERE. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'VE SAID, OR AT LEAST I THINK I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'VE SAID. AND MAYBE BECAUSE IT IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT, MAYBE I SHOULD REPEAT BACK SOME OF WHAT I THINK I'M HEARING. A. OKAY. Q. AS YOU USE ENRICHED AND UNENRICHED IN THIS PARTICULAR -- I'M LOOKING AT THE DRAFT THAT YOU SUBMITTED TO SOIL SCIENCE, AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT CHAPTER EIGHT, I BELIEVE--- A. RIGHT, YEAH. Q. ---WHICH IS -- THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME? A. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES). Q. IN REFERENCE TO ENRICHED AND UNENRICHED IN -- IN THAT PAPER AND IN THAT CHAPTER, THIS IS A RELATIVE TERM ALONG THE GRADIENT MOVING FROM THE HIGHEST FORMS, OR HIGHEST LEVELS -- I'M SORRY -- HIGHEST LEVELS OF PHOSPHORUS, DOWN TO THE LOWEST ALONG YOUR GRADIENT? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT AS TO THAT. HOWEVER, WE HAVE -- WE HAVE TALKED IN TERMS OF ENRICHED AND UNENRICHED DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 132 PHOSPHORUS LEVELS IN THE EVERGLADES--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---HONESTLY, FOR DAYS--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---IN DEPOSITIONS. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND I BELIEVE THAT IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS, THEY WERE NOT CONFINED TO THE GRADIENT, TO THE HIGHEST TO THE LOWEST IN THE GRADIENT, THEY WERE -- THEY WERE IN A CONTEXT, AT LEAST, AS I UNDERSTOOD IT--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---GOING FROM BACKGROUND OR UNDERSTANDING OF BACKGROUND--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---ALL THE WAY UP TO THE HIGHEST LEVELS YOU WOULD MEASURE, OF LET'S SAY TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN THE SURFACE WATER--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---AND THE SOIL? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU, IS -- AND I MUST BE -- IN ALL FAIRNESS, MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID, WHEN I SAID WHAT IS ENRICHED AND WHAT IS UNENRICHED--- DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 133 A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---YOU'RE THE ONE THEY SAID TO ASK. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. SO, LET'S -- LET ME SEE IF I CAN FRAME A QUESTION NARROWLY ENOUGH FOR YOU THAT WE CAN -- WE CAN GET AN ANSWER--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---THAT YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE ANSWERING. A. OKAY. Q. IF I WERE TO ASK YOU WHAT TOTAL PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS IN SURFACE WATER AND SOIL WATER IN THE EVERGLADES--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---FOR AN UNENRICHED SITE WOULD BE, CAN YOU GIVE ME A RANGE? A. FOR AN UNENRICHED SITE? Q. YES, SIR. A. WELL, ACCORDING TO THIS TABLE, TABLE 8-1 ON PAGE 339, SIMPLY BY GROUPING, ARBITRARILY, MORE OR LESS, GROUPING, PLOTS AT D6, C6, A5 AND A6, ALL INDICATED IN ANOTHER MAP, IN THIS PAPER, BY THE WAY--- Q. OKAY. WHY DON'T WE GET THAT MAP IN FRONT OF US? A. OKAY. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 134 Q. BECAUSE I THINK EVERYBODY'S GOT A COPY OF IT, AND SOME GRAPHS I SUPPLIED, AND--- A. AND THAT IS ON PAGE 323, FIGURE 8-1, AND WE'RE LOOKING AT A MAP OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A IN WHICH THE PLOT NUMBERS ALONG OUR THREE TRANSECTS HAVE BEEN INDICATED. Q. AND SO FOR UNENRICHED, YOU CHOSE D1, D2 AND C1 AND C2. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. FOR THE -- FOR THE ENRICHED PLOTS--- Q. ENRICHED, EXCUSE ME--- A. YES, I CHOSE--- Q. ---EXCUSE ME. A. ---D1, D2, C1, AND C2. AND FOR THE UNENRICHED PLOTS, I CHOSE D6, C6, A5 AND A6--- Q. OKAY. A. ---MORE OR LESS ARBITRARILY, BECAUSE THOSE REPRESENTED BOTH A DISTRIBUTION OF POINTS FROM EAST TO WEST, AND THEY ALSO INDICATED THE ONES THAT WERE FURTHEST DOWN WHAT WE CALL OUR NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT, AND WHAT WE FELT PROBABLY REPRESENTED BACKGROUND LEVELS FOR THE EVERGLADES, AT LEAST THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS. Q. NOW, YOU BELIEVE THAT THESE NUMBERS THAT ARE REPRESENTATIVE OF D6, C6, A5 AND A6 ARE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 135 REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ENTIRE EVERGLADES? A. NO, NOT NECESSARILY THE ENTIRE EVERGLADES. Q. OKAY. OKAY. A. BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS PROBABLY -- THERE'S PROBABLY ORIGINALLY SOMEWHAT OF A NORTH/SOUTH GRADIENT IN PEAT DEPTH, AND TO SOME EXTENT IN NUTRIENT CONTENT. NOW, I'M NOT SURE WHETHER ANYONE HAS EVER PROVED THAT, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF THERE HAVE BEEN ENOUGH SOIL ANALYSES DONE SINCE -- IN TIMES BEFORE SAY THE 1920'S, '30'S AND 40'S TO ACTUALLY PROVE THAT CONCLUSIVELY. BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE DEPTH OF THE PEAT, AND THE CONTENT OF MINERALS BESIDES CALCIUM CARBONATE WOULD PROBABLY HAVE RESULTED IN SOME SORT OF A SLIGHT GRADIENT GOING FROM NORTH TO SOUTH, FROM THE SOUTH SHORES OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE DOWN TO THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. AFTER ALL, THAT IS THE AREA THAT THEY DID DRAIN FOR AGRICULTURAL, ORIGINALLY, SO I WOULD ASSUME THAT THAT WAS WHERE THE RICHEST AND DEEPEST SOILS WERE. Q. NOW, LET ME, JUST SO I'M CLEAR, DO YOU -- YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS NORTH/SOUTH GRADIENT IN ENRICHMENT, BEING THE RICHEST NEAR THE LAKE, DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 136 GOING PROBABLY INCREASINGLY LESS RICH AS YOU GO SOUTH? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. IS THAT BASED ON THE LITERATURE? A. TO SOME EXTENT, BUT IT'S ALSO PARTIALLY A SUBJECTIVE JUDGMENT, JUST BASED ON, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT THAT'S WHERE THEY DID PUT MOST OF THE AGRICULTURE, ORIGINALLY, AND -- AND BECAUSE THE SOILS ARE VERY THIN IN THE SOUTH. Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, BASED ON YOUR BACKGROUND AS A SOIL SCIENTIST, THAT WOULD -- YOU WOULD BELIEVE THAT TO BE SOMETHING YOU WOULD EXPECT TO FIND IF YOU WERE TO TEST THE SOILS ON A NORTH/SOUTH GRADIENT SUCH AS THAT? A. YES, UH-HUH (YES)--- Q. OKAY. A. ---BUT, I WOULD SAY ALSO THAT THAT WAS PROBABLY MUCH LESS PRONOUNCED THAN THE GRADIENT WE HAVE IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A. THAT THIS IS ON A MUCH SMALLER SCALE THAN WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT GOING ALL THE WAY FROM LAKE OKEECHOBEE DOWN TO THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. AND I WOULD JUST GUESS THAT IT WOULD BE MUCH MORE PRONOUNCED ON THIS SMALLER SCALE. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 137 Q. IT'S MORE PRONOUNCED BECAUSE OF THE SIGNIFICANT ENRICHMENT COMING OFF OF THE HILLSBORO CANAL, INTO THE AREA? A. RIGHT, YEAH. THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY THE CONCLUSION OF THIS PAPER. Q. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY DATA THAT SUPPORTS YOUR LARGER THEORY, THAT THERE IS A NORTH/SOUTH GRADIENT, LET'S SAY FROM THE LAKE THROUGH THE PARK? A. NO, I CAN'T POINT TO ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. IN FACT, I THINK THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO HAVE DONE--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT NOW, SINCE VARIOUS AREAS HAVE BEEN DRAINED, AND THINGS HAVE BEEN CHANGED, THAT IT REALLY COULD BE DONE AT THIS POINT, TO DEFINITELY PROVE THAT. Q. SO, YOU'RE NOT SURE THAT YOU COULD SUPPORT THE THEORY OF THE NORTH/SOUTH GRADIENT, EVEN BY DATA COLLECTION ACROSS THAT AREA PRESENTLY? A. RIGHT, YEAH. I THINK PRESENTLY THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO SUPPORT THAT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---SO, I, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO POINT OUT THAT THAT DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 138 IS JUST A SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSION OF MINE. Q. I UNDERSTAND, I UNDERSTAND. LET ME ASK YOU, DID YOU HELP ESTABLISH THE TRANSECTS FROM THE 10D, THE 10C AND THE 10A? A. NO. ACTUALLY CHRIS CRAFT AND CURT RICHARDSON HAD ACTUALLY SET UP THOSE POINTS ON A PREVIOUS TRIP BEFORE I CAME, WHICH WAS IN DECEMBER, 1989, AND THEY HAD ALREADY SET UP THAT TRANSECT AT THAT POINT. Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW HOW THEY ESTABLISHED THE D6, THE C6, THE A5, AND THE A6 AS THE FURTHERMOST UNENRICHED OR BACKGROUND SITES ALONG THEIR TRANSECTS? A. I THINK THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE SOMETHING THAT -- THAT CURT AND/OR CHRIS COULD PROBABLY ANSWER BETTER. Q. OKAY. A. BUT I CAN GIVE MY -- JUST A SUBJECTIVE GUESS ABOUT THEIR REASONS, WAS THAT IT WAS -- THEY WERE BASICALLY SET UP APPROXIMATELY ONE KILOMETER APART, AND I BELIEVE IT WAS TO SOME EXTENT ARBITRARY. OF COURSE, THE NORTH/SOUTH PLACEMENT OF THOSE IS, OF COURSE, MEANT TO BE DUE SOUTH OF EACH OF THE GATES, THAT'S GATE 10D, 10C, AND 10A. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 139 Q. WELL, HAVE YOU DONE TESTING SOUTH OF THOSE SITES, OF D6, C6, A5 AND A6 IN 2A? A. YES, WE HAVE DONE SOME LIMITED TESTING--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---MAINLY AT OUR SITE, WHICH WE'VE ESTABLISHED FOR WHAT WE'RE CALLING THE DOSING STUDY. Q. RIGHT, RIGHT. A. AND WE HAVE SAMPLED THE SOIL THERE, BUT I WOULD SAY NOT TO THE EXTENT OF ACTUALLY EXTENDING THOSE PARTICULAR TRANSECTS. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU SAMPLED SURFACE WATER THERE, ALSO? A. YES, UH-HUH (YES). WE SAMPLE THAT ON A REGULAR BASIS. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU FOUND CONCENTRATIONS LOWER THAN D6, C6, A5, AND A6? A. IN TERMS OF SURFACE WATER, ORTHOPHOSPHATE, YEAH, WE HAVE FOUND OCCASIONALLY SOME CONCENTRATIONS AT OUR DOSING STUDY SITE WHICH ARE EVEN LOWER THAN WE WOULD -- THAN THE AVERAGE AT A6, C6 AND D6. Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT TOTAL PHOSPHORUS? A. IN TERMS OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, I'M NOT SURE RIGHT NOW. I WOULD HAVE TO CHECK THE ACTUAL NUMBERS. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 140 Q. DO YOU HAVE THOSE AVAILABLE TO YOU ON ANY OF YOUR GRAPHS THERE IN FRONT OF YOU? A. NO, WE DON'T HAVE THOSE ON THE GRAPHS IN FRONT OF ME. WE DIDN'T REALLY PUT ANY DATA OF THE WATER CHEMISTRY DATA, OR WE ONLY PUT LIMITED WATER CHEMISTRY DATA FROM OUR DOSING STUDY--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---IN HERE AT THIS POINT, SINCE THAT IS SOMETHING WHICH IS STILL IN THE PROGRESS OF BEING INITIATED. Q. OKAY, IN TERMS OF THE LOWER VALUES THAT YOU HAVE FOUND AT THE DOSING STUDY IN ORTHOPHOSPHATE, WHAT NUMBERS HAVE YOU FOUND AT YOUR DOSING SITE? AT BOTH DOSING SITES, ARE YOU TALKING SORT OF ABOUT THE TWO? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH, BECAUSE THEY'RE--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---ONLY MAYBE A HUNDRED YARDS, MORE OR LESS--- Q. SURE. A. ---APART FROM EACH OTHER SO, THEY'RE REALLY PRETTY SIMILAR. Q. OKAY. A. NOW, I WOULD SAY IN TERMS OF ORTHOPHOSPHATE, JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, I THINK WE HAVE FOUND DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 141 CONCENTRATIONS BETWEEN ABOUT SIX MICROGRAMS PER LITER, UP TO APPROXIMATELY SEVENTEEN MICROGRAMS PER LITER, AND THAT'S APPROXIMATE. WE MAY HAVE FOUND CONCENTRATIONS OF FOUR, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE -- THAT OUR CONFIDENCE INTERVAL ON THOSE SORTS OF ANALYTICAL MEASUREMENTS IS ALL THAT PRECISE, TO MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN FOUR AND SIX MICROGRAMS PER LITER. Q. OKAY. IF WE WERE TO LOOK FOR YOUR DATA, IF YOU'RE SAYING YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN LOCATE IT HERE TODAY AMONG YOUR PAPERS ON TOTAL PHOSPHORUS -- AND I HAVE TO APOLOGIZE, I'M -- AS A LAYMAN, I'M REALLY -- THE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IS WHAT I'M MORE COMFORTABLE IN THINKING--- A. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---IN TERMS OF. IN FACT, UNTIL I READ YOUR PAPERS, I NEVER DREAMED THERE WERE SO MANY DIFFERENT FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS THAT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. WHERE WOULD WE LOOK FOR THESE NUMBERS OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS AMONG YOUR DATA COLLECTIONS? A. YOU KNOW, I PRODUCED THOSE IN A VERY RAW FORM IN ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS. AND I BELIEVE THAT THE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 142 MANILA -- MANILA FOLDER WAS ACTUALLY LABELED, "DOSING STUDY." AND THOSE HAVE NEVER BEEN COMPILED IN THE FORM OF A NICE NEAT REPORT, BUT THEY WERE SIMPLY IN THEIR RAW FORMS AS REPORTS FROM THE AUTOANALYZER DATA. I'M NOT SURE WHAT EXHIBIT NUMBER THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN. Q. I GUESS NOT. THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF THEM, WEREN'T THERE? A. RIGHT, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN ZERO AND 129. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU THINK IF I WERE TO GIVE YOU LIKE AN INDEX ON ONE OF OUR BREAKS, DO YOU THINK YOU MIGHT COULD LOCATE IT FOR US? A. I THINK I COULD, YEAH. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL TRY THAT. A. OKAY. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE -- OKAY, WE MAY BE ABLE TO LOCATE IT. HAVE YOU DONE THAT TYPE OF WHAT I'M GOING TO CALL -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, BACKGROUND TESTING AT OTHER SITES, OTHER THAN 2A? A. NO, NOT REALLY. Q. OKAY. I THINK YOU HAD SAID YOU WERE GOING -- YOU DON'T HAVE ANY 3A BACKGROUND DATA? A. NO, NO. I THINK -- I'VE NEVER REALLY BEEN INTO THE INTERIOR OF 3A, ACTUALLY. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 143 Q. OKAY. SO, ALL OF YOUR WORK HAS BEEN CONFINED TO 2A AND 2B. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. YES, EXCEPT FOR SOME SPORADIC SAMPLES I'VE TAKEN IN VARIOUS CANALS AROUND THE AREA, SAY, LIKE IN THE MIAMI CANAL, THE NEW RIVER CANAL, AND THE HILLSBORO CANAL. Q. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE BACKGROUND NUMBERS FOR 2B? A. 2B? Q. WHAT WOULD YOU CALL AN UNENRICHED -- WHAT WOULD BE THE RANGE FOR UNENRICHED IN 2B? A. NOW, IN 2B, I HAVEN'T REALLY DEALT WITH 2B TO ANY EXTENT, EXCEPT IN THE EXTENT OF BASICALLY HELPING CHRIS OCCASIONALLY WITH HIS FERTILIZER STUDY IN 2B. Q. SO, YOU'RE UNABLE TO GIVE US A BACKGROUND RANGE FOR 2B? A. WHAT I KNOW ABOUT 2B IS BASICALLY JUST HAVING A FAMIL -- KIND OF A FAMILIARITY WITH CHRIS CRAFT AND CURT'S WORK ON THE FERTILIZATION STUDY, AND LOOKING AT SOME OF THOSE WATER CHEMISTRY NUMBERS. AND I -- MY SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSION, WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO POINT AT THE DATA RIGHT AT THE MOMENT -- I'M SURE IT'S SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE -- IS THAT THE -- THAT THE WATER CHEMISTRY AT THE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 144 FERTILIZATION SITES, THE CONTROL SITES, IS FAIRLY SIMILAR TO WHAT IT WAS AT THE FURTHEST PLOTS ALONG THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT, THAT IS, D6, C6, A5 AND A6, REASONABLY SIMILAR. Q. OKAY. A. I'M SURE THAT THERE ARE SOME SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT RANGES, AND SOME SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT NUMBERS, OCCASIONALLY--- Q. OKAY. WOULD THEY BE--- A. ---BUT I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING ANYTHING THAT WAS SURPRISING TO ME THAT I THOUGHT WAS DRASTICALLY LOWER OR DRASTICALLY HIGHER THAN WHAT WE SAW IN THE SOUTHERN END OF 2B -- 2A -- SORRY. Q. AT THE END OF THE GRADIENT, YOU MEAN--- A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. ---WHEN YOU SAY THE SOUTHERN END, YOU MEAN THE END OF THE GRADIENT TRANSECT? A. RIGHT, UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. I THINK YOU SAID THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU UNDERSTOOD HOW THEY HAD CHOSEN THE END OF THEIR GRADIENTS, AND THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GUESS OR SOMETHING. I'M NOT SURE THAT YOU DID TELL ME, THOUGH. I MAY HAVE CUT YOU OFF. HOW DO YOU THINK THEY REACHED THE END OF THEIR GRADIENTS? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 145 A. AS FAR AS WHAT THEY ARBITRARILY DECIDED TO MAKE THE LAST POINT, SAY, D6, A6 AND C6, I CAN'T REALLY SAY THAT RIGHT NOW. I'M NOT SURE HOW CURT AND CHRIS JUST DECIDED THAT THAT WAS THE END OF THE TRANSECT. Q. IF I TOLD YOU THAT THE ANSWER I HAD BEEN GIVEN WAS THAT THEY HAD GONE UNTIL THE NUMBERS LEVELED OFF, WOULD THAT SOUND ABOUT RIGHT TO YOU? A. YEAH, I SUPPOSE SO. I'M NOT SURE WHAT NUMBERS YOU MEAN. Q. WELL, THE SOIL AND SURFACE WATER, LET'S SAY TOTAL PHOSPHORUS NUMBERS, THEY JUST STARTED LEVELING OFF. A. YEAH, I CAN'T REALLY SAY THAT FOR SURE. I DIDN'T COME ON TO THE PROJECT UNTIL DECEMBER 10, 1989, AND -- AND THEN WE STARTED SAMPLING IN JANUARY OF 1990, AND SO I'M JUST NOT ALL THAT FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF THE SAMPLES THAT THEY HAD TAKEN BEFORE THAT TIME. Q. OKAY. WELL, IF YOU WERE ESTABLISHING THIS GRADIENT -- LET'S ASSUME THAT YOU WERE SENT OUT TO ESTABLISH THE GRADIENT, HOW WOULD YOU DETERMINE THAT YOU HAD REACHED BACKGROUND, OR UNENRICHED LEVELS? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 146 A. PROBABLY, AS YOU SAY, BY LOOKING FOR A POINT IN WHICH THE CONCENTRATIONS OF PHOSPHORUS, IN PARTICULAR, SINCE THAT WAS THE ELEMENT THAT MOST EVERYBODY IS CONCERNED WITH, WHERE THEY DID LEVEL OFF, AND TO WHERE THEY WOULD OCCASIONALLY MATCH SOME OF THE GENERAL RANGES THAT YOU WOULD FIND IN 2B, AND 3A. Q. WHAT WOULD THOSE GENERAL RANGES FOR GENERAL BACKGROUND BE IN 2A AND 2B? A. IN 2A AND 2B? Q. RIGHT. A. WELL, I WOULD HAVE TO RETROSPECTIVELY JUST SAY THE GENERAL RANGES FOR BACKGROUND WOULD PROBABLY BE WHAT WE FOUND AT A6, D6, AND--- Q. C6? WELL, WHATEVER THE FOUR ARE. A. --A6, D -- YEAH -- D6 AND C6, RIGHT, AND -- AND THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NOT TOO DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT CHRIS -- CHRIS CRAFT AND CURT RICHARDSON HAD FOUND IN 2B AND 3A. Q. SO, YOU'RE BASICALLY WORKING BACKWARDS OFF OF THEIR PRELIMINARY DATA COLLECTIONS? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. OKAY. HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO BEYOND THE POINT WHERE YOU FOUND IT LEVELING OFF? HOW MUCH FURTHER WOULD DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 147 YOU EXTEND INTO THE MARSH, ASSUMING THAT YOU HAD FOUND THAT LEVELING OFF POINT? A. WELL, GIVEN AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF MONEY, AND PERMISSION TO GO INTO THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK, I WOULD HAVE GONE ALL OF THE WAY FROM NORTH TO SOUTH. Q. TO THE BAY? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH. Q. BUT LET'S ASSUME YOU'RE GOING TO STAY WITHIN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, FOR PURPOSES OF MY QUESTION--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---HOW MUCH FURTHER SOUTH WOULD YOU HAVE GONE? A. I THINK GIVEN THE TRADE-OFF OF, YOU KNOW, LIMITED TIME AND MONEY, I BELIEVE THAT PROBABLY THAT A6, D6 AND C6 WAS REALLY SUFFICIENTLY FAR ENOUGH. RETROSPECTIVELY, SIMPLY IF YOU LOOK AT A LOT OF THE CURVES OF THE CONCENTRATIONS OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOIL AND THE WATER, THEY DO TEND TO LEVEL OFF OR REACH KIND OF A LOWER ASYMPTOTE AT THOSE POINTS ON THE TRANSECT, AND--- Q. DO YOU HAVE GRAPHS TO SHOW ME THAT I CAN -- THAT I CAN LOOK AT AND SEE HOW FAR THEY WENT FOR THE LEVELING OFF, AND THAT YOU WOULD AGREE THAT THAT DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 148 WAS THE APPROPRIATE DISTANCE TO GO FOR A LEVELING OFF? A. NO. AS FAR AS GRAPHS THAT THEY HAD, SAY, PRODUCED BEFORE I CAME? Q. I DON'T KNOW--- A. NO, THE ONLY -- THE ONLY--- Q. ---I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU'RE JUDGING HOW THEY LEVELED OFF. I MEAN, I WAS SORT OF REFERRED TO YOU. I HAVE TO BE HONEST--- A. OH, OH -- OH, IN RET--- Q. ---I MEAN, EVERYONE SAID YOU WERE IT. I WAS GOING TO GET THE ANSWER RIGHT HERE, AND--- A. ---YES, IN RETROSPECT--- Q. ---I'M GOING BACKWARDS. A. ---IN RETROSPECT, I WOULD POINT TO--- Q. YEAH. A. ---PAGE 328, FIGURE 8-2--- Q. OKAY. A. ---WHICH IS A PART OF SURFACE AND SOIL PORE WATER, ORTHOPHOSPHATE CONCENTRATIONS. Q. OKAY. A. AND I BELIEVE THAT IF YOU LOOK JUST APPROXIMATELY BETWEEN EIGHT AND TEN KILOMETERS ON THIS--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 149 A. ---ARBITRARY DISTANCE SCALE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---THEY DO APPEAR TO HAVE LEVELED OFF THERE. Q. AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT THEY WENT THE SAME DISTANCE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE GONE, HAD YOU GONE OUT AND ESTABLISHED THE TRANSECT? THAT WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION. DO YOU THINK THEY WENT THE APPROPRIATE DISTANCE--- A. YES, I--- Q. ---TO DETERMINE THE LEVELING OFF? A. ---I THINK THAT, IN RETROSPECT, THAT TURNED OUT TO BE FAR ENOUGH BASICALLY. Q. BUT I DON'T THINK YOU'RE EXACTLY TELLING ME THIS IS HOW YOU WOULD HAVE DONE IT, BUT YOU THINK IT'S OKAY. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. YES, UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU HAVE INDICATED "ARBITRARILY" A NUMBER OF TIMES. CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU BELIEVE THAT'S AN APPROPRIATE WORD IN REGARD TO HOW THEY DID THIS? A. YOU MEAN THAT THE TRANSECTS EXTENDED FAR ENOUGH? Q. RIGHT. A. OKAY. IN -- AS I SAY, IN RETROSPECT, FROM LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DATA THAT WE DID FIND ON THAT DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 150 NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT, WE DO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A LEVELING OFF SOMEWHERE IN THE RANGE OF EIGHT TO TEN KILOMETERS ON THIS ARBITRARY DISTANCE SCALE, BOTH IN THE SURFACE WATER OF PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS, AND, TO AN EXTENT, IN THE SOIL CONCENTRATIONS. AND A SECOND PIECE OF EVIDENCE WAS WHAT CURT RICHARDSON AND CHRIS CRAFT FOUND IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3, THAT THEY FOUND SOME FAIRLY SIMILAR CONCENTRATIONS OF TOTAL SOIL PHOSPHORUS. Q. THIS IS FROM THEIR PRELIMINARY TESTING THAT THEY DID ON, LIKE, THEIR FIRST--- A. RIGHT. THEIR -- THEIR--- Q. ---THEIR FIRST TRIPS? A. ---THEIR PRELIMINARY TESTING, YES, WHICH WAS REPORTED IN THE FIRST ANNUAL REPORT. Q. OKAY. IF I'M UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS, IS YOU'RE SAYING THAT PERHAPS YOU WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT THIS WAY, BUT LOOKING BACK, IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN AN ACCEPTABLE WAY TO HAVE SET THEM UP? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. RIGHT, YEAH. I THINK, YOU KNOW, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT I WOULD HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY, I THINK, DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 151 BECAUSE WE'RE ALWAYS LOOKING AT A TRADE-OFF OF TIME AND MONEY, IN SETTING UP THE SCALE OF ANY SORT OF PROJECT LIKE THIS. AND SO I BELIEVE, YOU KNOW, GIVEN LIMITED TIME AND LIMITED MONEY, THAT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A REASONABLE SETUP FOR THREE TRANSECTS. IN FACT, I'LL TELL YOU JUST MY SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSION, WHEN I WAS FIRST CONSIDERING TAKING THIS JOB, THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN I LOOKED AT THE FACT THAT THEY HAD THREE TRANSECTS, COVERING A LARGE GEOGRAPHIC AREA, THAT JUST MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS THAT THAT WAS AN EXCELLENT TYPE OF STUDY. BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN, IN THE PAST, LOTS OF ECOLOGICAL STUDIES WHICH ARE DONE USING ONE TRANSECT, GOING UP A PARTICULAR SORT OF ENVIRONMENTAL GRADIENT, AND I HAD, IN SOME OF MY TRAINING BEFORE, AND FROM SOME OF THE EXPERIENCE THAT I HAD HAD, I HAD REALIZED THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE TRANSECT IS NOT A PARTICULARLY GREAT THING TO BASE YOUR ECOLOGICAL CONCLUSIONS ON, AND THAT THREE REPLICATED TRANSECTS LIKE THIS, COVERING A LARGE UNIT OF THE LANDSCAPE, SEEMED TO BE AN EXCELLENT DESIGN TO ME. Q. IF YOU WANTED TO KNOW THE BACKGROUND TOTAL PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS IN THE EVERGLADES, DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 152 DR. QUALLS, WOULD YOU START IN AREAS THAT YOU KNOW ARE RECEIVING PHOSPHORUS INPUTS, OR WOULD YOU GO TO AREAS FAR FROM THOSE INPUTS? A. IF I WANTED TO -- CAN YOU REPEAT THAT? Q. IF YOU'RE TRYING TO ESTABLISH BACKGROUND LEVELS, UNENRICHED LEVELS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---WOULD YOU, AS A SOIL SCIENTIST, IMMEDIATELY GO TO THOSE AREAS THAT YOU KNOW ARE GETTING PHOSPHORUS INPUTS, OR WOULD YOU TRY TO SEEK OUT AREAS THAT YOU KNOW ARE PROBABLY REMOTE FROM PHOSPHORUS INPUTS? A. RIGHT, YEAH, IF I WANTED TO ESTABLISH THE BACKGROUND LEVELS, OBVIOUSLY, I WOULD GO TO AREAS THAT ARE FAIRLY REMOTE FROM THE AREA RECEIVING PHOSPHATE INPUTS. Q. OKAY. A. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I WOULD ALSO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE POSSIBILITY THAT THERE MIGHT BE ANY PREEXISTING GRADIENTS AND BY SOME WAY TRY TO SCREEN OUT THAT NATURAL BACKGROUND, OR PREHIS -- PREEXISTING OR HISTORIC--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---GRADIENT FROM THE ONE THAT WAS CREATED BY THE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 153 VARIABLE THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, IN THIS CASE, PHOSPHATE. Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT? HOW WOULD YOU SCREEN OUT THOSE MAN-INDUCED GRADIENTS OR WHATEVER YOU WOULD CALL THEM? A. WELL, OBVIOUSLY, THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SAMPLES COMING FROM BEFORE THE TIME OF AGRICULTURE IN THE EVERGLADES. GIVEN THAT WE CAN'T DO THAT, WHAT WE CAN DO THEN IS -- IS LOOK BOTH AT GRADIENTS GOING FROM BOTH NORTH TO SOUTH AND EAST TO WEST. Q. YOU HAD SOME DIFFICULTY WITH THE WAY THESE NORTH SOUTH GRADIENTS WERE SET UP, DID YOU NOT? A. NO. Q. YOU WEIGHTED -- YOU WEIGHTED YOUR NUMBERS, THOUGH, BECAUSE OF FLOW, DID YOU NOT? A. OH, OH--- Q. YOU HAVE WEIGHTED DISTANCE. ISN'T THAT -- IS IT CALLED WEIGHTED DISTANCE? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. IS THAT WHAT YOU DID? A. YES, WEIGHTED DISTANCE, THAT'S RIGHT. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND THE REASON FOR DOING THAT WAS, FIRST OF ALL, DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 154 TO FIND SOME WAY TO EXPRESS ALL THE DATA ON ONE PARTICULAR AXIS IN A WAY THAT WAS EASIER TO DIGEST FOR THE READER, NUMBER ONE, AND TO FIND SOME WAY TO DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT THERE WAS A MUCH HIGHER NUTRIENT LOAD COMING THROUGH THE "D" GATE THAN THROUGH THE "A" GATE. Q. I WILL HAVE TO TELL YOU, I'M A LITTLE DISTRESSED. I STARTED OUT WITH WHAT I THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE THE SIMPLEST QUESTION OF THE MORNING--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---AND I SEEM TO BE CAUGHT IN THE MUCK HERE. IF YOU WENT OUT AND FOUND THESE NATURAL AREAS THAT YOU THOUGHT WERE FOR BACKGROUND, WOULDN'T YOU WANT SOME -- SOME REDUNDANCY, AT LEAST TWO LOW SAMPLING STATIONS TO ESTABLISH YOUR BACKGROUND NUMBERS? A. WELL, YES. AND IN THE SENSE THAT WHAT CURTIS RICHARDSON AND CHRIS CRAFT HAD FOUND IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3, BASED ON THEIR PRELIMINARY ANALYSES THERE, IT SEEMED LIKE THAT THE SOIL PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION WAS FAIRLY SIMILAR AT THOSE FURTHEST POINTS ON THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT. Q. THE 3A, YOU SAID? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 155 A. YES, THE 3A. Q. OKAY. OKAY. LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR CONCEPT OF TIME AND MONEY IMPEDING EVERYTHING THAT WE DO. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. LET'S ASSUME THAT TIME AND MONEY WERE NOT A FACTOR--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---AND THAT YOU WERE AN ENDOWED SCIENTIST WHO COULD DO THINGS IN A PERFECT WORLD--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---HOW WOULD YOU ESTABLISH YOUR TRANSECTS IN 2A? A. WELL, WITHIN 2A, PROBABLY BY BASICALLY SAMPLING MORE POINTS. THE MORE THE POINTS THE BETTER, UP TO THE POINT WHERE YOU'VE SAMPLED EVERY SQUARE INCH OF SOIL. YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE GIVEN UNLIMITED TIME AND MONEY. BUT, OF COURSE, THAT NEVER REALLY IS THE SITUATION OF UNLIMITED TIME AND MONEY--- Q. YOU--- A. ---SO, IT'S ALMOST A--- Q. ---YOU WOULD HAVE DONE SOME TYPE OF A--- A. ---A KIND OF A FANTASY. Q. RIGHT. YOU WOULD HAVE DONE SOME TYPE OF A TRANSECT ACROSS ALL OF 2A? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 156 A. POSSIBLY. Q. UH-HUH (YES). HAS THAT, IN FACT, BEEN DONE BY OTHER SCIENTISTS OUT THERE? A. YES, I -- YES, I UNDERSTAND THAT RAMESH REDDY AND SOME OTHER CO-AUTHORS HAVE DONE A FAIRLY EXTENSIVE GRID--- Q. RIGHT. GRID, I'M SORRY. A. ---IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, YES. Q. THANK YOU. OKAY. HAVE YOU COMPARED THOSE NUMBERS TO YOUR NUMBERS--- A. NOW--- Q. ---THEIR DATA COLLECTIONS TO YOUR DATA COLLECTIONS TO SEE IF -- IF BACKGROUND APPEARS TO BE THE SAME? A. NOW, AS FAR AS SPECIFIC NUMBERS OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, NO, I HAVEN'T. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND ONE REASON THAT IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT RIGHT OFF THE BAT TO COMPARE THEM, WITHOUT ACTUALLY DOING SOME CALCULATIONS, IS THAT THEY USED A MUCH DEEPER AND -- SAMPLING INTERVAL AND PULLED THAT ENTIRE SOIL SAMPLE, I BELIEVE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---WHEREAS, WE DIVIDED THE SOIL UP INTO MUCH FINER INCREMENTS. FOR INSTANCE, SINCE CHRIS WAS WORKING DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 157 WITH THE DATING, HE USED, I THINK -- I BELIEVE IT WAS TWO CENTIMETER INCREMENTS. AND IN THIS STUDY, I USED--- Q. LET'S GO TO THE SURFACE WATER. I MEAN, YOU COULD COMPARE SURFACE WATER, COULDN'T YOU? A. SURFACE WATER, THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. OKAY. DID DR. REDDY DO SURFACE WATER, ALSO? A. YES, I BELIEVE SO. Q. OKAY. COULDN'T YOU COMPARE SURFACE WATER, YOUR SURFACE WATERS TO HIS SURFACE WATERS? A. YES, UH-HUH (YES). Q. HAVE YOU DONE THAT? A. NO. RIGHT OFF THE BAT, I CAN'T REALLY MAKE ANY COMPARISON WITHOUT -- I COULD LOOK AT HIS PAPER RIGHT NOW AND DO IT, THOUGH, IF--- Q. AND WOULD YOU BE ABLE--- A. ---IF YOU HAVE IT HANDY, BUT--- Q. NO, I DON'T HAVE REDDY'S PAPER HANDY. BUT I WAS JUST -- WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET BACK AT IS THIS CONCEPT OF, THERE SEEMS TO BE AN ENORMOUS IMPORTANCE IN ALL OF OUR MINDS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---PLACED ON WHAT IS AN UNENRICHED BACKGROUND NUMBER. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 158 A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND I REALLY THOUGHT THIS WAS GOING TO BE AN EASY QUESTION--- A. HUH-UH (NO). Q. ---I REALLY DID. HAVE YOU COMPARED ANY PORE WATER NUMBERS FROM DR. REDDY TO YOURS? A. (NO RESPONSE.) Q. YOU SAY YOU HAVEN'T COMPARED SURFACE WATER NUMBERS? A. NO, NOT SPECIFICALLY. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU COMPARED PORE WATER NUMBERS? A. YES, I BELIEVE I DO REMEMBER LOOKING AT THE PORE WATER NUMBERS. AND, JUST SUBJECTIVELY, WITHOUT HAVING MEMORIZED ANY OF THE NUMBERS IN THEIR STUDY--- Q. I UNDERSTAND. A. ---I REMEMBER BEING IMPRESSED BY -- THAT THEY WERE IN THE SAME GENERAL BALLPARK. Q. OKAY. FOR TOTAL PHOSPHORUS? A. FOR ORTHOPHOSPHATE. Q. OKAY. ORTHOPHOSPHATE, OKAY. AND WHAT WERE THOSE, DO YOU REMEMBER? A. NOW, IN PORE WATER, LET ME POINT OUT THAT--- Q. ALL RIGHT. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 159 A. ---TOTAL PHOSPHORUS INCLUDES THE SUSPENDED PARTICLES, AND THAT'S RELATIVELY MEANINGLESS IN SOIL, BECAUSE AFTER ALL, SOIL IS, YOU KNOW, MADE UP OF A LOT OF PARTICLES. SO, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PHOSPHORUS IN SOIL WATER, I THINK WE HAVE TO RESTRICT OURSELVES TO EITHER ORTHOPHOSPHATE, AND DISSOLVED ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS--- Q. ALL RIGHT, FOR ORTH--- A. ---IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. Q. OKAY. I'M SORRY. FOR ORTHOPHOSPHATE, WHAT WERE THE RANGE -- WHAT IS THE RANGE OF NUMBERS THAT YOU REMEMBER DR. REDDY HAVING, THAT YOU BELIEVE ARE COMPARABLE TO THE RANGE OF NUMBERS THAT YOU'RE FINDING AT YOUR UNENRICHED SITES ON THE GRADIENT? A. YEAH, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE REPORT RIGHT NOW, I CAN'T EVEN--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER A SPECIFIC NUMBER. I JUST REMEMBER WHEN I LOOKED AT IT, I WAS IMPRESSED BY THE FACT THAT THEY SEEMED TO BE IN THE GENERAL BALLPARK IN SOIL PORE WATER. Q. SO, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE WRITINGS OF THE VARIOUS PEOPLE FROM THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 160 A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT UNENRICHED EVERGLADES, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY MEAN PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS OF 28, PLUS OR MINUS 14 MICROGRAMS PER LITER? IS THAT WHAT YOU THINK? MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) YES, OR NO? YOU CAN SAY YES OR NO, OR YOU CAN -- OR YOU CAN--- A. CAN YOU RESTATE THE QUESTION AGAIN? Q. WHEN I'M -- WHEN I'M READING UNENRICHED IN THE EVERGLADES THROUGHOUT THE ANNUAL REPORT--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---WHAT DOES IT MEAN? A. I THINK THROUGHOUT ALL THESE STUDIES, IT'S USED IN A RELATIVE SENSE, TO STATE THAT IT IS LESS ENRICHED THAN THE AREAS IN THE NORTHERN END OF 2A. SO--- Q. JUST LESS? ANYTHING LESS WOULD BE UNENRICHED? THERE MUST BE A RANGE. I MEAN, I KNOW YOU HAVE A RANGE IN MIND. I'M NOT TRYING TO PIN YOU TO ONE NUMBER. I -- I'LL ACCEPT -- A RANGE OF NUMBERS IS PERFECTLY FINE. BUT, I MEAN, IT'S BEEN YEARS WE'VE BEEN WORKING OUT THERE, TALKING ABOUT DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 161 ENRICHED AND UNENRICHED--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---AND IF YOU HAVE TO GIVE IT TO ME IN ORTHOPHOSPHATE, GIVE IT TO ME IN ORTHOPHOSPHATE. IF YOU WANT TO GIVE IT TO ME IN TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, OBVIOUSLY, I'M MORE COMFORTABLE IN TOTAL PHOSPHORUS. BUT THAT'S OKAY--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---YOU GIVE IT TO ME HOWEVER YOU CAN. BUT I BELIEVE THERE MUST BE SOME NUMERICAL BENCHMARK AGAINST WHICH PEOPLE ARE MENTALLY PINNING THESE WORDS. ISN'T THAT A REASONABLE ASSUMPTION ON A READER'S PART? A. OKAY. NOW, IF WE WANT TO SAY WHAT CONCENTRATIONS OF ORTHOPHOSPHATE ARE FOUND IN SURFACE WATER, IN AREAS WHICH WE FEEL ARE PROBABLY NOT UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF ANY SORT OF PHOSPHORUS COMING OUT OF THE CANALS, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY JUST FROM COMPARING OUR LOOK AT A6, D6, AND C6, ALL I CAN REALLY DO IS POINT TO THE DATA, WHICH IS -- WHICH IS REPORTED ON PAGE 233 -- 232, FIGURE 6-13. AND OUR MOST REMOTE PLOTS SHOW A RANGE OF, YOU KNOW, APPROXIMATELY FIVE MICROGRAMS PER LITER, UP TO OCCASIONALLY A RANGE OF, AS MUCH AS FORTY DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 162 MICROGRAMS PER LITER, AND THAT ARBITRARILY IS WHAT WE'RE CALLING RELATIVELY UNENRICHED, IN THAT AREA--- Q. WHAT IS THE RELATIVELY--- A. ---BUT, AGAIN, I'LL HAVE TO -- I'LL HAVE TO POINT OUT THAT THE WORD ENRICHMENT, I KNOW THAT THAT'S A -- IT'S BEING USED IN A RELATIVE SENSE. AND THAT DOES NOT IMPLY THAT THAT WOULD BE THE CONCENTRATION WHERE WE WOULD BEGIN TO GET CHANGES, SAY, IN THE ALGAL COMMUNITY OR IN THE PLANT COMMUNITY. Q. NO, WE'RE NOT TALKING THRESHOLD HERE. IS THRESHOLD WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A. RIGHT, I'M TRYING TO SAY THAT THAT'S NOT NEC -- I'M NOT IMPLYING THAT THAT IS ANY SORT OF THRESHOLD. Q. NO, I'M NOT ASKING YOU ABOUT--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---THE THRESHOLD. I HAVEN'T EVEN -- I HAVEN'T EVEN GOTTEN TO THE HARD QUESTIONS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---I'M TALKING ABOUT THE EASY ONE -- WHAT IS AN UNENRICHED SITE? AND I GUESS YOU'RE TELLING ME IT'S ALL RELATIVE, THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY -- WE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 163 DON'T HAVE ANY BENCHMARKS OUT THERE. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME? A. NO, I HAVE SEEN SOME DATA FROM THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---AT LEAST THAT PART WHICH WAS REPORTED IN THE SWIM PLAN. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. AND I -- I REMEMBER THAT THEIR APPROXIMATE CONCENTRATIONS WERE IN THE RANGE OF, SAY, FROM FIVE TO, YOU KNOW, MORE OR LESS TWENTY MICROGRAMS PER LITER, BUT -- BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT NUMBERS, WITHOUT ACTUALLY LOOKING AT THE SWIM PLAN. Q. OKAY. SO, AS OPPOSED TO THE FIVE TO FORTY THAT YOU NORMALLY THINK OF AS RELATIVELY UNENRICHED, YOU BELIEVE THAT THOSE FIGURES SHOWED FIVE TO TWENTY MICROGRAMS PER LITER OF ORTHOPHOSPHATE? A. RIGHT, YEAH--- MR. BURGESS: WELL, OBJECT. EXCUSE ME--- A. ---AS FAR AS THAT UPPER RANGE, I--- MR. BURGESS: OBJECT -- EXCUSE ME, DOCTOR. PLEASE STOP. I'VE GOT AN OBJECTION DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 164 TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. AND IT'S A LITTLE BIT CONFUSING, BECAUSE I THINK HE'S TESTIFIED THAT HE THINKS THERE'S A HISTORICAL GRADIENT. HE'S BEEN UNABLE TO SAMPLE IN THE PARK. AND I DON'T WANT HIM TO -- I THINK YOUR QUESTION WAS UNINTENTIONALLY MISLEADING, BECAUSE IT'S ASKING HIM WHAT THE BACKGROUND LEVEL IS WHERE HE'S ALREADY TESTIFIED IT'S FIVE TO FORTY. AND NOW YOU'RE SAYING, WELL, IS THAT THE SAME AS THE ONE IN THE PARK? I JUST WANT TO BE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION. WITNESS: UH-HUH (YES). MR. BURGESS: AND PLEASE, ASK IT AGAIN, IF YOU WOULD, OR HE CAN ASK -- ANSWER IT IF HE UNDERSTANDS IT. MS. PONZOLI: I THINK YOU MISSTATED HIS ANSWER. YOU SAID THAT THE BACKGROUND -- YOU STATED HIS ANSWER HAD BEEN THE BACKGROUND, FIVE TO FORTY MICROGRAMS PER LITER, AND HE SAID THAT RELATIVELY UNENRICHED--- MR. BURGESS: RIGHT, I AGREE WITH THAT. MS. PONZOLI: ---WAS FIVE TO FORTY--- MR. BURGESS: RIGHT. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 165 MS. PONZOLI: ---MICROGRAMS PER LITER. MR. BURGESS: RIGHT. WITNESS: RIGHT. A. YEAH, ALL -- ALL I WAS DOING AT THAT POINT WAS POINTING OUT WHAT THE GENERAL RANGE OF DATA IS AT--- Q. OUTSIDE OF EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK? A. ---IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AT THE ENDS OF OUR TRANSECTS, BASICALLY. Q. OKAY. OKAY, SO THE FIVE TO FORTY IS AT THE ENDS OF THE TRANSECTS. A. IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A. Q. IN 2A. A. THAT'S RIGHT. Q. AND I THINK YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT IS RELATIVELY COMPARABLE TO 2B DATA THAT YOU HAVE EITHER PULLED OR SEEN? A. NO, I WAS BASING THAT NOT ON CONCENTRATIONS OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE WATER, BUT IN--- Q. I'M SORRY. A. ---IN THE SOIL--- Q. OKAY. A. ---WHICH CHRIS CRAFT AND CURT RICHARDSON HAD DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 166 SAMPLES, AS PART OF AN EARLIER STUDY, WHICH WAS REPORTED IN THE FIRST YEAR'S ANNUAL REPORT. Q. OKAY. SO, THIS FIVE TO FORTY IS IN THE SOIL, IS THAT RIGHT? A. NO. I WAS AT THAT POINT TALKING ABOUT ORTHOPHOSPHATE IN SURFACE WATER. I'M SORRY. Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND THEN HOW DID WE SLIP TO THE OTHER? I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT--- A. THAT WAS JUST IN GENERAL A SUBJECTIVE IDEA OF WHAT WOULD CONSTITUTE THE BACKGROUND LEVEL -- THAT THE SOIL PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION WAS FAIRLY SIMILAR AT THOSE SITES RELATIVELY FAR AWAY ON THAT TRANSECT IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, TO WHAT WAS FOUND IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3. NOW, AS FAR AS ORTHOPHOSPHATE IN SURFACE WATER, I CAN'T RECALL WHAT THE CONCENTRATIONS WERE IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3. SO, AT THAT POINT, I WAS TALKING ABOUT SOIL LEVELS. Q. AND THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT D6, C6, A5, AND A6? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. OKAY. (THEREUPON, MS. PONZOLI AND MR. JONES CONFER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. QUALLS, ARE YOU SURE THAT THE FIVE TO TWENTY MICROGRAMS PER LITER FOR DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 167 EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK, THAT YOU INTENDED TO SAY THOSE WERE ORTHOPHOSPHATE? A. I'M NOT SURE WHETHER -- THAT'S PROBABLY -- I THINK THEY ARE PROBABLY REPORTED AS TOTAL PHOSPHATE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND, BY THE WAY, THOSE NUMBERS, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE SWIM PLAN, I CAN'T SAY WHETHER THOSE -- THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS OR NOT. THAT WOULD JUST BE, IF I WERE FORCED TO GUESS, WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO LOOK AT THE SWIM PLAN. Q. RIGHT, I HAVE ONE I COULD GIVE YOU. BUT I -- YOU KNOW, WE CAN -- IF YOU WANT TO, I'LL DO IT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT NECESSARY. BUT IF YOU -- I MEAN, I DON'T WANT YOU TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE. THAT'S NOT THE PURPOSE OF MY QUESTIONS. A. YEAH. THAT'S JUST A SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSION FROM HAVING LOOKED THROUGH THE APPENDIX OF THE SWIM PLAN. Q. OKAY. (THEREUPON, MS. PONZOLI AND MR. JONES CONFER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) NOW, THAT WE'RE THROUGH WITH THE EASY PART, WE'LL MOVE ON. I'M NOT PROMISING NOT TO RETURN TO THAT ONE, DR. QUALLS. I'M TROUBLED. A. OKAY. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 168 Q. OKAY. STARTING IN YOUR "FORMS OF SOILS PHOSPHORUS ALONG A NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT GRADIENT IN THE NORTHERN EVERGLADES," WHICH I BELIEVE IS PRETTY MUCH CHAPTER EIGHT, YOU TALK IN TERMS OF NATIVE PHOSPHORUS AND ADDED PHOSPHORUS, STORED OVER THE PAST THIRTY YEARS, AND I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY NATIVE PHOSPHORUS. MS. PONZOLI: PARDON? YEAH, YOU CAN WORK ON THE EXHIBITS. YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS PUBLICATION IN YOUR EXHIBITS. MR. GRIMSHAW: EXCUSE ME, WHAT PAGE IS THAT ONE? MR. JONES: THAT'S NUMBER--- MS. PONZOLI: I THINK I'M WORKING OFF OF AN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DISTRICT DRAFT WHICH YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE, BUT YOU DO HAVE THE DRAFT OF HIS PAPER. MR. McCAUGHAN: RIGHT. PAGE 322 ON THE REPORT. MS. PONZOLI: IT'S PRETTY CLOSE IN THE REPORT. I THINK YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS--- WITNESS: OH, OKAY, SURE. MS. PONZOLI: ---THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE THE ONES THAT THE GOVERNMENT PRODUCED, THIS DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 169 SHOULD BE THERE. MR. BURGESS: WE HAVE THOSE. MR. NETTLETON: WITH AN EIGHT NUMBER ON THE BOTTOM. MR. PONZOLI: NO. NO, I'M ON PAGE ONE, ABSTRACT. PARDON? MR. NETTLETON: I THINK WE'RE ALL THERE. A. OKAY, THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN NATIVE PHOSPHORUS AND PHOSPHORUS WHICH HAS BEEN ADDED RECENTLY WAS A -- WAS AN ATTEMPT TO -- TO TRY TO SEPARATE FORMS -- FORMS--- MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU WANT TO WAIT, DR. QUALLS? MR. BURGESS: I'VE GOT FOUR DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE PAPER IN EXHIBIT 64. I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE YOU'RE WORKING FROM. MS. PONZOLI: I AM WORKING FROM THE EPD ONE, AND--- WITNESS: OKAY. IT'S THE ONE THAT HAS THE--- MS. PONZOLI: IT'S THE SAME, MR. BURGESS. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 170 WITNESS: ---CAPITAL LETTERS HERE. MR. BURGESS: OKAY, I'M JUST LOOKING AT MY EXHIBIT 64, AND I DON'T HAVE THE EPD BATES NUMBERS ON THE BOTTOM. MS. PONZOLI: NO, YOU DON'T HAVE EPD BATES NUMBER--- MR. BURGESS: ALL RIGHT. MS. PONZOLI: ---BUT YOU HAVE THE PAPER. WITNESS: I THINK IT'S THE ONE IN YOUR LEFT HAND, PROBABLY. MR. BURGESS: YEAH, THAT'S HIS. BUT IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S THIS ONE RIGHT HERE, BECAUSE IT'S GOT SUBMITTED TO SOIL SCIENCE ON IT. MS. PONZOLI: THAT SHOULD WORK. IT SHOULD WORK FINE. MR. BURGESS: THANK YOU. WITNESS: YEAH. MS. PONZOLI: AND WE'RE ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THE ABSTRACT, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NATIVE PHOSPHORUS AND ADDED PHOSPHORUS THAT ARE IN THE LINE FIVE. A. THAT'S RIGHT. I USED THE WORDS "NATIVE PHOSPHORUS" AND "ADDED PHOSPHORUS" IN THAT SENSE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 171 TO TRY TO -- TO TRY TO BE ABLE TO AT LEAST INITIALLY SEMANTICALLY DISTINGUISH BETWEEN PHOSPHORUS WHICH REPRESENTED THE NATURAL SITUATION--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---AND PHOSPHORUS WHICH MAY HAVE COME IN FROM THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AS A RESULT OF PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT OVER THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE OR THIRTY YEARS. AND IN ORDER TO -- TO TRY TO DETERMINE WHAT WAS NATIVE PHOSPHORUS AND ADDED PHOSPHORUS, WE USED THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF EVIDENCE. NUMBER ONE IS WHAT WERE THE DIFFERENCES IN THE FORMS THAT WE SAW CLOSE TO THE HILLSBORO CANAL, COMPARED TO THOSE THAT WE SAW FAR AWAY FROM THE HILLSBORO CANAL. AND NUMBER TWO, WHAT WERE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SURFACE SOILS, AND THE SOILS FOUND DEEPER DOWN IN THE PROFILE, WHICH WERE DEPOSITED BEFORE THE ERA OF -- THIS HYPOTHETICAL ERA OF NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT OCCURRED. IN OTHER WORDS, SAY, COMPARING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE ZERO TO FIVE CENTIMETER LEVEL, AND THE TWENTY TO TWENTY-FIVE CENTIMETER LEVEL. AND NUMBER THREE, WE USED SOME EVIDENCE, AGAIN BASED ON CURT RICHARDSON'S AND CHRIS CRAFT'S CORES THAT THEY DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 172 TOOK IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3A, AND JUST CONSIDERING THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOIL, THAT IT WAS IN THE GENERAL RANGE OF WHAT WE FOUND AT A6, D6 AND C6. Q. SO, TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOIL WAS THE SAME AS THE OTHER SITES? A. YES, IT WAS MORE OR LESS SIMILAR TO WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3. Q. 3A? A. 3A. Q. OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THOSE NUMBERS WERE? A. NO, I CAN'T RECALL WHAT THE EXACT NUMBERS ARE THAT--- Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW--- A. ---WITHOUT HAVING LOOK -- WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE FIRST ANNUAL REPORT. Q. OH, IF I HANDED YOU THE FIRST ANNUAL REPORT, COULD YOU FIND THAT FOR ME? A. YES, PROBABLY. (THEREUPON, MS. PONZOLI HANDS REPORT TO WITNESS.) (THEREUPON, WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENT.) A. RIGHT AT THE MOMENT, I DON'T SEE IT IN THE FIRST ANNUAL REPORT. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 173 Q. OKAY. A. AND I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHERE IT IS. YOU KNOW, I COULD TRY -- MAYBE OVER LUNCH, I COULD TRY TO--- Q. OKAY. OKAY. A. ---LOCATE THE EXACT -- WHERE THAT WAS ACTUALLY RECORDED--- Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. A. ---I CAN JUST LOOK FOR IT LATER. Q. OKAY. YOU MENTIONED A HYPOTHETICAL ENRICHMENT WHEN YOU WERE GIVING US YOUR THREE--- MS. PONZOLI: THAT'S FINE. YOU CAN KEEP IT. Q. ---YOU MENTIONED THE HYPOTHETICAL ENRICHMENT, DID THAT HAVE ANY SIGNIFICANCE DR. QUALLS? A. HYPOTHETICAL -- WELL, THAT'S JUST SAYING THAT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE STUDY, THAT WAS THE HYPOTHESIS, THAT THESE VARIOUS FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS WOULD, OR CONVERSELY WOULD NOT, BE FOUND IN HIGHER CONCENTRATION CLOSER TO THE HILLSBORO CANAL. Q. OKAY. BUT, IN FACT, YOUR STUDY SHOWED THAT THEY WERE, DID IT NOT? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LET ME JUST -- LET ME -- LET ME SEE. YOU'VE GOT MORE PHOSPHORUS THAN I EVER DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 174 DREAMED OF, SO LET ME JUST TRY AND DEAL WITH THIS. WHEN YOU'RE SAYING THIS NATIVE PHOSPHORUS AND THE ADDED PHOSPHORUS, ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE SAME FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS, JUST DIFFERENT AMOUNTS BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN ADDED? A. THAT'S RIGHT, YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT, AND IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR WORK, YOU DO SHOW A GRADIENT THROUGHOUT 2A--- A. YES. Q. ---MOVING -- MOVING THROUGH THE MARSH. A. RIGHT. Q. IS THAT ACCURATE? A. YES, UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS IS THE BEST TIME TO DO IT, AND IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO ME -- I DON'T KNOW. LET'S TRY -- YOU HAVE AT THE END OF YOUR REPORT SOME GRAPHS THAT SHOW THE GRADIENT THROUGH THE MARSH, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE HELPFUL, I HOPE, THAT YOU WOULD -- THIS FIGURE 2 IS THE ONE YOU REFERRED ME TO BEFORE--- MR. McCAUGHAN: WHAT PAGE? Q. ---SHOWING THE LEVELLING OFF, IS IT NOT? MR. McCAUGHAN: EXCUSE ME, WHAT PAGE IS IT? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 175 MS. PONZOLI: I'M AT FIGURE 2 AT THE END OF HIS PAPER. WITNESS: YEAH, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT, IN THIS PARTICULAR VERSION OF IT. IT WOULD -- AND IT WOULD ALSO BE FOUND ON PAGE 328, FIGURE 8-2--- MR. McCAUGHAN: THANK YOU. WITNESS: ---IN THE ANNUAL REPORT VERSION. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) AND THAT'S THE ONE YOU REFERRED ME TO--- A. RIGHT, YEAH. Q. ---PREVIOUSLY, ISN'T IT? A. YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND THAT SHOWS THE LEVELING OFF. BUT THEN WE MOVE ON TO THESE BAR GRAPHS THAT YOU HAVE DEMONSTRATED. AND I BELIEVE THEY SHOW THE GRADIENT, DO THEY NOT? IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE SHOWING? A. YES, THEY DO. Q. OKAY. WOULD EXPLAIN TO ME, AND YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE THE -- I GUESS -- ARE THEY IDENTICAL FROM--- A. THEY'RE IDENTICAL, YES. Q. ---CHAPTER EIGHT TO THIS? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 176 A. YES. Q. WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ME THESE DIFFERENT FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS, DR. QUALLS? AND MAYBE THAT WILL HELP US AS WE'RE DISCUSSING YOUR PAPER--- A. OKAY, THE--- Q. ---AND IF -- IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO ME ABOUT THIS CONCEPT OF NATIVE PHOSPHORUS AND ADDED PHOSPHORUS AS WE'RE LOOKING AT THE BAR GRAPH, MOVING THROUGH THE MARSH. A. OKAY. AND I'LL POINT OUT THAT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT THESE VARIOUS FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS MEAN, FOUND IN A SUBSECTION CALLED "RATIONALE OF THE EXTRACTION." Q. RIGHT. A. AND, TO SOME EXTENT, WE HAVE TO DEFINE SOME OF THESE FORMS IN WHATEVER EXTRACTANT WE HAVE USED. BUT FOR EACH ONE OF THOSE EXTRACTIONS, EACH ONE OF THOSE HAS A LONG HISTORY OF DEVELOPMENT, AND PEOPLE DOING VARIOUS EXPERIMENTS TO SHOW THAT IT DID HAVE SOME BIOLOGICAL MEANING. IN OTHER WORDS, THAT WHAT WE REFER TO AS CHLOROFORM EXTRACTABLE PHOSPHORUS HAS SOME MEANING IN TERMS OF MICROBIAL BIOMASS AND--- Q. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, THIS IS THE CHLOROFORM DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 177 RELEASED PHOSPHORUS THAT YOU HAVE, IN, I GUESS--- A. THAT'S RIGHT, THAT IT--- Q. ---THE DARK FORM? A. ---THAT IT'S PROPORTIONAL TO MICROBIAL BIOMASS PHOSPHORUS, THAT IS, THE PHOSPHORUS WHICH ACTUALLY HAS -- HAS OCCURRED IN THE MICROBIAL TISSUES. OKAY. AND STARTING FROM THE BOTTOM, THE MOST ABUNDANT FORMS ARE THE HUMIC ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS, AND THE INSOLUBLE ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS. THESE ARE BOTH FORMS OF WHAT IS TO BE -- WHAT IS BELIEVED TO BE RELATIVELY UNAVAILABLE FORMS OF ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS. AND THOSE TWO ARE THE MOST COMMON FORMS IN THE SOIL. ANOTHER FORM OF ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS, IS THE BICARBONATE EXTRACTABLE ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS, AND THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN BY SOME OTHER AUTHORS TO BE RELATIVELY MORE EASILY AVAILABLE TO DECOMPOSERS, AND SUBSEQUENTLY TO UPTAKE BY PLANTS. THAT'S THE BICARBONATE EXTRACTABLE ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS. ANOTHER FORM OF ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS IS WHAT IS REFERRED TO IN THIS REPORT AS A CHLOROFORM RELEASE PHOSPHORUS, AND THAT IS PROPORTIONAL TO THE MICROBIAL BIOMASS PHOSPHORUS -- IN OTHER WORDS, PHOSPHORUS WHICH IS ACTUALLY FOUND IN THE TISSUES DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 178 OF THE MICROBES WHICH ARE IN THE SOIL. AND THAT IS RELATIVELY RAPIDLY CYCLED AND IT IS BELIEVED TO BE MORE AVAILABLE TO PLANTS, IN THE SENSE THAT AT LEAST A LARGE PORTION OF IT CAN BE BROKEN DOWN EASILY BY OTHER MICROORGANISMS AND TURNED INTO ORTHOPHOSPHATE. Q. IS THIS A FORM OF PHOSPHORUS THAT -- AND I HAVE REALLY NO IDEA REGARDING MY QUESTION -- THAT REACTS WITH -- THAT YOU WOULD USE THE BIOASSAY ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE? IS THERE SOME RELATIONSHIP THERE? A. NO, NOT NECESSARILY. NOT NECESSARILY WITH THE MICROBIAL BIOMASS--- Q. OKAY. A. ---PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. A. BUT, LET'S SEE, THE REACTION WITH ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE PHOSPHORUS WHICH IS RELATIVELY EASILY CLEAVED BY MICROBIAL ENZYMES, ONE'S THAT THEY CAN DEGRADE FOR THE PURPOSES OF TAKING UP PHOSPHORUS FOR THEIR OWN BODILY TISSUES. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. AND I THINK THAT, IN THEORY, THAT WOULD MORE LIKELY BE THIS BICARBONATE EXTRACTABLE ORGANIC DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 179 PHOSPHORUS. THE CHLOROFORM RELEASE PHOSPHATE IN THE MICROBIAL TISSUES, IS NOT AVAILABLE TO THE OTHER MICROORGANISMS, RIGHT OFF THE BAT, IN THE SENSE, BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY IN A MICROBIAL TISSUE. Q. OKAY. A. NOW, ONCE THESE MICROBES DIE, AND BEGIN TO BE DECOMPOSED, SOME PORTION OF THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO THE OTHER MICROORGANISMS, WHICH USE THIS ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ENZYME TO BREAK DOWN ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. A. AND, IN FACT, WE HAVE AN INDICATION THAT A LARGE PORTION OF IT IS AVAILABLE TO THE MICROORGANISMS, WHICH BREAK IT DOWN BY ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE, BECAUSE, DURING THIS ASSAY, THE CHLOROFORM CAUSES THE BREAKING OF THE CELLS IN THE MICROBIAL TISSUE, AND A LOT OF THIS ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS IS LEACHED INTO THE GENERAL SOLUTION ALONG WITH THIS PHOSPHATASE ENZYME WHICH THE MICROBES ALSO PRODUCE. AND IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF THIS ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS IS TURNED INTO THE FORM OF ORTHOPHOSPHATE, THE INORGANIC FORM, JUST DURING THE PROCESS OF LYSIS AND INCUBATION WHILE WE'RE DOING THIS PARTICULAR ASSAY. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 180 Q. DO YOU THINK THAT ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE IS A -- AN ACCURATE BIOASSAY FOR A NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT? A. YEAH, I THINK IT IS -- YES, I THINK IN SOME RESPECTS IT IS--- Q. OKAY. A. ---BUT, I THINK THAT IN SOME RESPECT THERE MIGHT BE SOME EASIER INDICES OF NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, AND THAT WOULD BE JUST EITHER MEASURING TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOIL, OR ORTHOPHOSPHATE IN THE SOIL SOLUTION. Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAD NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT? A. BY LOOKING AT THE -- YOU MEAN BY LOOKING AT THE CONCENTRATIONS IN THE SOIL AND EVERYTHING? Q. RIGHT. A. YEAH. WELL, I GUESS THAT PROBABLY GETS BACK TO YOUR QUESTION OF WHAT ARE THE BACKGROUND LEVELS OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOIL, AND I THINK WE WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE DATA FROM, YOU KNOW, A6, D6, C6, AND CONCENTRATIONS FROM WATER CONSERVATION AREA 3, AND SOIL PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS IN THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK. AND I THINK TO REALLY ESTABLISH THAT, WE HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, ALL BE ABLE TO TRAVEL FREELY, DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 181 AND TAKE SOME SOIL SAMPLES FROM THESE VARIOUS AREAS. Q. I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND. IT'S BEING DONE. ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT? A. NO. Q. WELL, IT IS. THOSE -- THOSE ENTRIES HAVE BEGUN, SO -- SO MAYBE THAT DATA WILL BE AVAILABLE TO YOU. A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD JUST -- YOU THINK OF THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE AS A BIOASSAY IS ACCURATE, BUT YOU BELIEVE THAT IT WOULD BE EASIER TO JUST SIMPLY TAKE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS IN SOIL, OR ORTHOPHOSPHATE IN SOIL SOLUTION, AS A BIOASSAY OF -- OF WHETHER YOU'RE HAVING ENRICHMENT OR NOT? A. YES, YES. I THINK THAT WOULD JUST BE A LITTLE SIMPLER, BOTH TO DO, AND TO INTERPRET MORE DIRECTLY--- Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU--- A. ---I THINK THAT THE ADVANTAGE OF USING THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ASSAY IS -- IS BASED ON THE THEORY THAT MICROORGANISMS AND WHATEVER ALGAE MIGHT HAPPEN TO BE IN THAT PARTICULAR SAMPLE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 182 ARE -- ARE PRODUCING THIS ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE IN RESPONSE TO A BIOCHEMICAL NEED FOR MORE PHOSPHORUS--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---SO THAT WHEN THEY HAVE MORE PHOSPHORUS THAN THEY NEED, WHICH IN ONE SENSE YOU MIGHT DEFINE AS ENRICHMENT, THEN THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO SWITCH OFF THEIR ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE PRODUCTION. I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD NEED TO ESTABLISH WHAT SORT OF TIME INTERVAL THAT OCCURRED OVER THERE, BECAUSE BACTERIA AND ALGAE CAN FREQUENTLY TURN ON THE PRODUCTION OF ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE, AND TURN IT OFF IN -- IN SOMETIMES IN THE MATTER OF HOURS. AND SO IT MIGHT, IN A SENSE BE MORE INDICATIVE OF SOME SORT OF VERY, VERY SHORT TERM SITUATION. AND I THINK THAT MAYBE IF WE WERE ABLE TO ESTABLISH SOME SORT OF LEVEL OF TOTAL PHOSPHORUS OR PHOSPHORUS IN A SOIL SOLUTION, THAT THAT MIGHT BE A BETTER LONG TERM INDICATOR OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED HISTORICALLY. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU THINK THERE'S A TEMPORAL ELEMENT TO THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE THAT INTRODUCES A DEGREE OF UNCERTAINTY? A. YES, I THINK SO. I THINK WE NEED TO DO A LITTLE DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 183 BIT MORE WORK ON IT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---YOU KNOW, TO ESTABLISH WHETHER IT IS RELIABLE OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME. I THINK IT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---IT PROBABLY WOULD BE GOOD. IF YOU KEPT GETTING THE SAME RESPONSE OVER A PERIOD OF AN ENTIRE -- AN ENTIRE YEAR, I THINK THAT THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT THE ORGANISMS MORE OR LESS, YOU KNOW, FELT THAT THERE WAS PLENTY OF PHOSPHORUS AROUND, THAT THEY DIDN'T NEED TO SPEND ALL THE TIME AND ENERGY PUTTING OUT THIS ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE. Q. WHEN YOU SAY THE SAME REACTION, I'M NOT A SCIENTIST, BUT WHEN YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT YOU WANT TO SEE THE SAME REACTION FROM DATA OVER AN ENTIRE YEAR--- A. OH, NOT EXACTLY--- Q. ---I'M THINKING, WOW, YOU KNOW--- A. YEAH. NOT--- Q. ---I CAN'T SEE THE SAME REACTION ON ANYTHING FOR A YEAR. A. ---NOT EXACTLY THE SAME -- SAME REACTION. Q. YEAH. A. BUT SAY IF YOU SAW A RELATIVELY HIGH LEVEL--- DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 184 Q. OKAY. A. ---OF ALKALINE--- Q. SOME RANGE. A. ---PHOSPHATASE, OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, THAT WOULD -- THAT WOULD CERTAINLY INDICATE A LOT MORE THAN IT WOULD, IF YOU JUST SAW IT ONCE. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE WORK? A. YES, WE ARE -- WE'RE DOING IT AT OUR DOSING STUDY SITE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A. Q. WHAT ARE YOU DOING? A. RIGHT NOW, WE'RE JUST WORKING WITH ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE OF THE ALGAE, RIGHT AT FIRST. WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO EXTEND THAT TO LOOKING AT VARIOUS DIFFERENT COMPONENTS. Q. YOU'RE GOING TO EXPAND IT FURTHER, BUT YOU HAVEN'T DECIDED HOW, OR YOU HAVE DECIDED HOW--- A. NO--- Q. ---YOU JUST HAVEN'T DONE IT? A. ---WE'VE DECIDED HOW, IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW--- Q. OKAY. A. ---IN PROGRESS. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 185 Q. SO, YOU'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THE ALGAE AND MEASURE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE--- A. RIGHT, THAT--- Q. ---IN THE ALGAE? A. THAT, YEAH, ALGAE AND MICROORGANISMS AND PLANT ROOTS, AND TRY TO SEPARATE THE PRODUCTION OF ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE BY THOSE VARIOUS COMPONENTS. IF WE JUST TAKE A GROSS SAMPLE OF SOIL OR WATER, THAT COULD CONCEIVABLY CONTAIN ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE PUT OUT BY, NOT ONLY BACTERIA, BUT ALSO WHATEVER ALGAE MIGHT BE SUSPENDED IN THAT WATER. AND THEN PLANT ROOTS ALSO EXUDE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE AT THEIR ROOT SURFACES, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR WAYS THAT PLANTS CAN GET EXTRA PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU'RE GOING TO MEASURE IT HOW OFTEN AT THE DOSING STUDY? A. WE HAVEN'T REALLY SETTLED ON A -- ON A PARTICULAR TIME INTERVAL. WE HAD TALKED ABOUT, AND TENTATIVELY DISCUSSED MEASURING IT ONCE A MONTH--- Q. OKAY. A. ---BUT THAT'S NOT ABSOLUTELY SET IN STONE, UNTIL WE FIND OUT A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHETHER IT'S DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 186 THE BACTERIA THAT IS PUTTING OUT MOST OF THIS ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE, OR WHETHER IT'S THE SUSPENDED ALGAE. Q. WHAT TEST ARE YOU DOING TO DECIDE WHETHER IT'S THE BACTERIA OR THE SUSPENDED ALGAE? A. WELL, WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO BE USING SOME SELECTIVE BIOCIDES TO -- WHICH -- SOME OF WHICH DISCOURAGE THE GROWTH OF THE ALGAE--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---AND THEN SOME OF WHICH WOULD SELECTIVELY DISCOURAGE THE GROWTH OF THE BACTERIA. AND, HOPEFULLY, BE ABLE TO TURN OFF EACH ONE OF THOSE ORGANISMS AND THEN DO A LITTLE INCUBATION, WHERE WE WOULD DECIDE IT WAS JUST THE ALGAE OPERATING DURING THAT PERIOD--- Q. BIOCIDE? A. ---WE HAVEN'T WORKED THAT OUT YET. Q. A BIOCIDE? A. YEAH, YEAH, IN OTHER WORDS LIKE A -- SOMETHING TO STOP THE ALGAE FROM WORKING, SELECTIVELY, AND THEN SOMETHING TO STOP THE BACTERIA FROM WORKING, BUT WHICH WOULD ALLOW THE ALGAE TO KEEP WORKING AT THE SAME TIME. Q. OKAY. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 187 A. BUT THAT'S ALL JUST IN THE INITIAL RESEARCH STAGES RIGHT NOW. Q. WHO'S DOING THIS WORK? A. I'M IN -- MAINLY IN CHARGE OF THAT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THERE'S ALSO A STUDENT ASSISTANT WHO IS HELPING OUT WITH IT. Q. WHICH BIOCIDES ARE YOU USING? THESE SOUND LIKE KILLER AGENTS. I MEAN, THAT'S WHY I'M LAUGHING, BIOCIDES. A. WELL, THAT'S SOMETHING WHICH IS STILL IN THE RESEARCH PHASES RIGHT NOW. Q. OH, YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH BIOCIDES YOU WILL BE USING? A. WE HAVE SOME IDEAS, BUT WE'RE NOT QUITE SURE. Q. DO YOU WANT TO SHARE THEM? A. NOT RIGHT NOW. Q. WELL, I DON'T THINK -- WELL, I THINK YOU SORT OF HAVE TO. IT WASN'T REALLY A QUES -- IT WASN'T QUESTION OF WOULD YOU LIKE TO. I MEAN, I THINK YOU'LL HAVE TO TELL ME WHICH BIOCIDES YOU'RE USING. A. WELL, SINCE WE HAVEN'T STARTED USING THEM RIGHT NOW, WE HAVEN'T REALLY WRITTEN ANYTHING DOWN IN DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 188 THE FORM OF AN ACTUAL PROPOSAL IN THAT TERMS, THEN IT WASN'T REALLY STATED IN THE DUCES TECUM THAT WE HAD TO, YOU KNOW, PRODUCE--- Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER THEM? A. ---NECESSARILY. Q. ARE YOU -- LET ME SEPARATE OUT THE PROBLEM FOR YOU, DR. -- DR. QUALLS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---IS THE PROBLEM THAT YOU FEEL THIS IS -- THIS IS SOME SECRET YOU WANT TO KEEP--- A. PROPRIETARY--- Q. ---WHICH BIOCIDE? A. ---PROPRIETARY INFORMATION. LET'S CALL IT THAT. Q. WELL, I--- MR. McCAUGHAN: COUNSELLOR, LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD FOR A SECOND. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) MS. PONZOLI: IF YOU DON'T MIND, I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO GO BACK ON THE RECORD BECAUSE I THINK ALL THIS HAS LEGAL SIGNIFICANCE. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 189 MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY, FINE. MS. PONZOLI: I AM WILLING TO WORK IT OUT WITH YOU, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE ME DO IT THE HARD WAY REGARDLESS, SO I MIGHT AS WELL HAVE IT ON THE RECORD WHY I'M HAVING TO DO IT THE HARD WAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: SURE. GO AHEAD. MS. PONZOLI: WE'VE BEEN OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSING THE NATURE OF THE PROPRIETARY INTERESTS THAT DR. QUALLS THINKS HE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE. AND HIS COUNSEL HAS BEEN DISCUSSING WITH ME WHETHER OR NOT, YOU KNOW, IT'S APPROPRIATE TO HOLD THESE, AND I GUESS I'LL JUST ALLOW HIM TO SPEAK FOR HIMSELF AS TO WHY HE BELIEVES THIS IS APPROPRIATE TO WITHHOLD. MAYBE -- MAYBE IT WOULD HELP IF I -- I WOULD LIKE TO NARROW THE ISSUES, SO THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IT BY -- BY MOTION, THAT IT'S AS NARROW AS POSSIBLE FOR ME TO BRIEF. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DID YOU CREATE A BIOCIDE THAT YOU ARE ANTICIPATING YOU MAY OR MAY NOT USE--- A. NO, NO. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 190 Q. ---WITH YOUR ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE? A. NO, NO. Q. ALL RIGHT. A. NO. THESE ARE JUST IDEAS WHICH, YOU KNOW, MAY TURN OUT TO BE STUPID IDEAS. AND, YOU KNOW, I JUST DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM, BEFORE I'VE EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO WRITE IT DOWN, OR DO ANY PRELIMINARY EXPERIMENTS ON IT. MR. McCAUGHAN: I THINK THAT OUR OBJECTION TO THE PRODUCTION OR THE ORAL TESTIMONY REGARDING THIS ISSUE, IS THAT IF THESE ARE, IN FACT, PROPRIETARY, WHICH DR. QUALLS HAS INDICATED THAT THEY MAY OR MAY NOT BE PROPRIETARY, BUT THE PROPRIETARY ASPECT OF IT, WE CANNOT TELL AT THIS TIME, THEREFORE, I'M -- I'M ASKING THAT THEY BE PROTECTED. AND WE CAN'T PROTECT THEM UNLESS WE HAVE, BY THE HEARING OFFICER, AN ORDER COMPELLING HIM TO PRODUCE THIS INFORMATION ORALLY, OR IN WRITING, IF -- IF EVENTUALLY IT IS REDUCED TO WRITING, AND IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT'S NOT PART OF THE PUBLIC RECORD. BECAUSE PART OF THE PUBLIC RECORD, AS YOU KNOW, WE IMMEDIATELY RUN INTO SOME BARS TO DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 191 PROTECTING OUR PROPRIETARY INTERESTS. AND WE CERTAINLY WANT TO COOPERATE, AND YET WE FEEL LIKE TO PROTECT ANY PROPRIETARY INTEREST, WHETHER IT'S A PATENTABLE INVENTION OR WHETHER IT'S A COMPOSITION OF MATTER PATENT, OR A USE PATENT, OR NO MATTER WHAT FORM IT MAY TAKE, IN THIS INSTANCE, WE FEEL LIKE IT'S NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF THE UNIVERSITY, AS WELL AS DR. QUALLS. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THAT. I -- I THINK THAT WHAT WE HAVE HERE ARE JUST SOME -- AND I WOULD LIKE TO ASK DR. QUALLS--- Q. (BY MR. PONZOLI) DO WE HAVE, DR. QUALLS, ESSENTIALLY MAYBE, LET'S SAY, TEN BIOCIDES THAT -- FROM WHICH YOU COULD CHOOSE TO -- TO EXPERIMENT ON THE ALGAE AND THE BACTERIA, AND DETERMINE WHICH ONE WORKED THE BEST FOR PURPOSES OF YOUR EXPERIMENT? IS THAT ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT? A. YEAH, TO SOME EXTENT. Q. ARE THESE BIOCIDES THAT YOU PERSONALLY WILL CREATE? DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 192 A. NO. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I WILL PROBABLY BUY THEM. Q. THEY'RE COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE BIOCIDES? A. WELL, SOME OF THEM. PROBABLY NOT ALL OF THEM. Q. OKAY. IF YOU CAN'T BUY IT, AND YOU'RE NOT MAKING IT YOURSELF, WHERE ARE YOU GETTING IT? A. WELL, ALL I MEAN, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT SOME OF THE THINGS MIGHT BE PRODUCED IN THE LAB BY MICROORGANISMS, FOR EXAMPLE. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I THINK -- I THINK WHAT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO CONSIDER, COUNSEL, IS THAT THIS IS PUBLICLY FUNDED RESEARCH. IT IS NOT PRIVATELY FUNDED RESEARCH. AND THAT BECAUSE IT'S PUBLICLY FUNDED, I BELIEVE THE DATA AND THE RESULTS BELONG TO THE PUBLIC. MR. McCAUGHAN: THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, AND I AGREE WITH COUNSEL ON THAT MATTER. AT THE SAME TIME, THE PUBLICLY FUNDED RESEARCH, AS WELL AS PRIVATELY FUNDED RESEARCH -- AND THE UNIVERSITY DOES A LOT OF PUBLICLY FUNDED RESEARCH; THE MAJORITY OF IT IS -- GIVE US CERTAIN RIGHTS TO PROTECT ANY PROPRIETARY INTEREST THAT MAY EXIST AND DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 193 IT -- IN THIS INSTANCE WE FEEL LIKE THAT PROPRIETARY INTERESTS MAY BE JEOPARDIZED BY FURTHER TESTIMONY IN DETAIL ON THIS PARTICULAR MATTER. AND THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES GIVE US THE RIGHT TO PROTECT THOSE INTERESTS, ULTIMATELY FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PUBLIC AND THE UNITED STATES, AND ANY OTHER ENTITY THAT MAY BE FUNDING IT, IN THIS CASE, AN AGENCY OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA. AND WE MUST GUARD THOSE RIGHTS TO SEE THAT THE -- ANY PROPRIETY INTERESTS ARE PROTECTED FOR THE PUBLIC DOMAIN EVENTUALLY. MR. NETTLETON: FOR THE RECORD, PAUL NETTLETON ON BEHALF OF THE DISTRICT, I'VE HEARD A LOT OF COMMENTS BACK AND FORTH ARGUING LEGAL PROPRIETY. AND FROM MY UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT DR. QUALLS HAS TESTIFIED TO, WE'RE NOT DEALING HERE WITH A LEGAL PROPRIETARY INTEREST, EVEN THOUGH THE LAWYERS ARE TALKING ABOUT IT. IT SOUNDS MORE LIKE DR. QUALLS JUST HASN'T DECIDED WHICH BIOCIDE HE WANTS TO USE YET, AND DOESN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE REVEALING WHAT DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 194 HE'S THINKING ABOUT AT THIS STAGE. AND I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S A LEGAL PROPRIETARY INTEREST THAT'S PROTECTABLE. MR. McCAUGHAN: WITH DUE RESPECT, THE -- THE PARTICU -- THE USE OF A PARTICULAR AGENT FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE MAY VERY WELL BE PROTECTABLE BY THE PATENT LAWS. AND, FOR THIS REASON, WE ARE REQUESTING THAT IF -- IF THE OPPOSING -- OR IF THE COUNSEL FOR THE GOVERNMENT HERE WANTS THIS INFORMATION, THAT THEY GET A MOTION -- FILE A MOTION AND GET AN ORDER COMPELLING US, WE WILL DO IT, PRODUCE THE INFORMATION AT THAT TIME, UNDER A PROTECTIVE ORDER. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I RESERVE THE UNITED STATES' RIGHT TO OBTAIN THE INFORMATION REGARDING THE BIOCIDES, BUT I AM ADVISED THAT WE MAY ALREADY HAVE IT. SO, I'M GOING TO MOVE ON. MR. NETTLETON: DO YOU WANT TO GO CHANGE YOUR PLANE RESERVATIONS? MS. PONZOLI: WELL, LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD. LET ME JUST TAKE A FIVE MINUTE BREAK. DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 195 (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER, AND A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ALL RIGHT. WE WERE -- ARE YOU READY, DR. CRAFT [sic.]? A. SURE. Q. EXCUSE ME, I WAS CALLING DR. CRAFT, DR. RADER, AND NOW YOU'RE TURNING INTO DR. CRAFT. I'LL BE ONE DEPONENT BEHIND--- A. CLOSE ENOUGH. Q. ---AND I GUESS DR. RICHARDSON WILL BE DR. QUALLS. A. OKAY. Q. I THINK WHEN WE GOT OFF ON OUR PHOSPHATASE JOURNEY, WE WERE WORKING OUR WAY UP THE VARIOUS FORMS OF PHOSPHOROUS. LET ME JUST TAKE ONE SECOND TO MAKE SURE I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ELSE I WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT THE PHOSPHATASE--- A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. ---BEYOND THE BIOCIDES. YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK AT THE REACTION TO ALGAE AND MACROPHYTES -- THE MICROORGANISMS, I'M SORRY, IN DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 196 THE PLANT ROOTS, AND THEN YOU SORT OF ALLUDED TO SOME OTHER WORK YOU WERE GOING TO DO IN REGARD TO ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS THIS -- THIS INITIAL WORK OR SOME OTHER WORK. IS THERE -- IS THERE MORE THAT YOU ANTICIPATE DOING WITH THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE? A. OH, I THINK THAT THE OTHER THING I WAS TALKING ABOUT WAS HOW I -- I BELIEVE THAT THE -- THE CHLOROFORM RELEASED THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE WHICH WAS INSIDE THE MICROBIAL CELLS, AND THAT WHEN THOSE LYSED, DUE TO THE CHLOROFORM, THAT SOME OF THE ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS COMPOUNDS, WHICH WERE ALSO IN THOSE MICROBIAL TISSUES, BUT ISOLATED, WERE -- WERE ALSO HYDROLYZED, OR IN OTHER WORDS TURNED FROM ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS INTO INORGANIC PHOSPHORUS. Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN REGARD TO THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE THAT YOU ANTICIPATE DOING? A. NO, I THINK THAT'S ABOUT IT. Q. OKAY. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I THINK YOU HAD GONE AS FAR AS THE CHLOROFORM RELEASED PHOSPHORUS. WOULD YOU LIKE TO CONTINUE MOVING UP? A. OKAY. AND THE -- THE NEXT FOUR FORMS, THE ONES THAT ARE THE TOP FOUR CATEGORIES ON THIS DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 197 PARTICULAR GRAPH, FIGURE 8-3, PAGE 336 OF THE SECOND ANNUAL REPORT, THE NEXT FOUR FORMS ARE IN -- FORMS OF INORGANIC PHOSPHORUS, AND THE CALCIUM PHOSPHATE P IS THE PHOSPHORUS WHICH IS RELEASED BY TREATMENT WITH ACID, BECAUSE CALCIUM PHOSPHATE IS SOLUBLE IN ACID, BUT RELATIVELY INSOLUBLE AT NEUTRAL pH, OR ALKALINE pH. AND THAT'S BELIEVED BY A LOT OF THE AGRICULTURAL PEOPLE TO BE RELATIVELY UNAVAILABLE, AND--- Q. WHY DO YOU SAY THEY BELIEVE IT'S UNAVAILABLE? DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S UNAVAILABLE? A. YES, I THINK IT PROBABLY IS, YEAH. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE? A. I THINK WE CAN PROBABLY GO WITH WHAT THEY HAVE FOUND IN AGRICULTURAL MINERAL SOILS. Q. OKAY. A. IT'S JUST THAT FOR A LOT OF THIS WORK, A LOT OF THIS HAS NOT BEEN DONE IN PEAT SOILS OR REALLY, REALLY HIGHLY ORGANIC SOILS, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S CONCEIVABLE THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME DIFFERENCES. BUT IT'S BEEN PRETTY WELL ESTABLISHED IN AGRICULTURAL SOILS, AT LEAST, THAT CALCIUM PHOSPHATE IS EXTREMELY INSOLUBLE, AND ONCE IT'S FORMED, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET BACK INTO DR. QUALLS VOLUME II PAGE 198 SOLUTION TO BE MADE AVAILABLE TO PLANTS. ANOTHER CATEGORY OF PHOSPHORUS IS THE PHOSPHORUS THAT IS BOUND IN SOME WAY BY IRON AND ALUMINUM, AND THAT ALSO IS BELIEVED TO BE LARGELY UNAVAILABLE, AND THAT'S A VERY STRONG BOND WHICH IS FORMED BETWEEN IRON -- IRON AND ALUMINUM AND PHOSPHATE. AND IT CAN BE AVAILABLE TO PLANTS, BUT ONLY VERY, VERY SLOWLY, AND PERHAPS THROUGH THE INFLUENCE OF SOME OTHER COMPOUND, WHICH WOULD CAUSE AN EXCHANGE REACTION. SO, BASICALLY, THOSE THREE FORMS OF INORGANIC PHOSPHORUS THERE ARE FAIRLY UNAVAILABLE. NOW, THE FORM WHICH IS MOST AVAILABLE TO PLANTS, AND TO MICROORGANISMS IS THE EXCHANGEABLE PHOSPHATE, AND THAT'S THE VERY HIGHEST BAR THAT YOU FIND UP AT THE TOP OF THE GRAPH.