STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural Cooperative Marketing Association, ROTH FARMS, INC., AND WEDGWORTH CASE NOS. 92-3038 FARMS, INC., 92-3039 92-3040 and FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., and FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ASSOCIATION LEWIS POPE FARMS, W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., Petitioners, vs. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, an AGENCY of the State of Florida, Respondent, and MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, an FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, the FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, the FLORIDA AUDOBON SOCIETY, and the SIERRA CLUB, Intervenors. ----------------------------------------/ DEPOSITION OF EDWARD L. POPE, JR., 2 1 One Clearlake Center Suite 1403 2 250 Australian Avenue South West Palm Beach, Florida 3 November 12, 1992 1:15 o'clock P.M. 4 5 6 APPEARANCES: 7 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ENVIRONMENT & NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION 8 BY: THOMAS A.W. FITZGERALD, ESQUIRE appearing on behalf of the Plaintiff. 9 OERTEL, HOFFMAN, FERNANDEZ & COLE, P.A., 10 BY: KENNETH F. HOFFMAN, ESQUIRE appearing on behalf of the Fruit & Vegetable 11 Association. 12 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK BY: RICHARD A. RUSSELL, ESQUIRE 13 appearing on behalf of Sugar Cane League. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 The deposition of EDWARD L. POPE, JR., a witness 2 of lawful age, taken for the purpose of discovery as 3 evidence in the above-styled cause, pending in the United 4 States District Court, Southern District of Florida, 5 pursuant to notice, before Brenda Weinerth, Notary Public 6 in and for the State of Florida at Large, at the time and 7 place aforesaid. 8 -------------------- 9 I N D E X 10 WITNESS 11 EDWARD L. POPE, JR. 12 Direct Examination by Mr. Fitzgerald 3 13 E X H I B I T S PLAINTIFF'S FOR IDENTIFICATION 14 No. Page 15 1 12 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 THEREUPON: 2 EDWARD L. POPE, JR., 3 Was called as a witness by the Plaintiff having been first 4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 MR. FITZGERALD: My name is Thomas Fitzgerald 7 representing the United States. 8 MR. HOFFMAN: Ken Hoffman representing the 9 deponent and the Fruit & Vegetable Association. 10 MR. RUSSELL: Richard Russell representing the 11 Sugar Cane League. 12 MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know what you did in 13 the previous depo. Did you reach any agreement as 14 to reserving all objections? 15 MR. HOFFMAN: What I sort of said was I 16 understand that is the Rules of Civil Procedure and 17 when I get crazy in objecting I will be short on 18 that. 19 EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. FITZGERALD: 21 Q Please state your name and spell your last 22 name for the record. 23 A I'm hard of hearing. You are going to have to 24 speak a little bit louder. 25 Q Please state your name for the record. 5 1 A Edward L. Pope, Jr. 2 Q Please just say so if you can't hear me and if 3 you don't understand a question or need it to be rephrased. 4 Sometimes we ask convoluted questions because we don't know 5 enough about something so in failing to ask a good question 6 we ask a difficult one. Also, if you would like to take a 7 break any time during the deposition just let me know. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Have you received and had an opportunity to 10 review the deposition notice? 11 A Briefly. 12 Q Did you have an opportunity to go through the 13 documents that it called for in the notice? 14 A I don't have any documents of that nature. 15 Q We may look at a few of those specific areas 16 you're the least familiar with? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you conduct the search for documents? 19 A I don't have any documents of that nature. 20 Q What's your understanding of the subject 21 matter the general subject areas of your testimony for the 22 final hearing in this case? 23 A What is my understanding? 24 Q Yes. 25 A I don't have an understanding about a final 6 1 hearing about testimony or whatever. 2 Q You were aware weren't you that you were being 3 designated as a potential witness? 4 A That I was aware of and to be very point blank 5 about it at a CARE meeting in March, I believe, of '92 in 6 conjunction with FFDA officer to preserve our right to 7 object, you know, we were on a time frame and it was 8 running out. 9 Q If you want to file a petition? 10 A To file to protect your interest whether this 11 would have been protected. If you want to they needed 12 three volunteers in the vegetable industry and I stuck my 13 hand up. 14 Q Were you ever in the service Mr. Pope? 15 A Yes. 16 Q You said that was at a CARE meeting? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What's CARE? 19 A I can't give you the names. It's the 20 vegetable grower in the Everglades area Belle Glade, 21 Pahokee organized to represent our interests in the 22 hearings with Water Management and Federal Government 23 because we did not know for sure at the time that our 24 interest would be represented by the Florida Sugar Cane 25 League. So, we organized under the auspices of FFDA. 7 1 Q Is this a chapter of the FFDA? 2 A No, it's just a separate organization that we 3 established and assessed ourselves so much a package to pay 4 for our legal fees and other needs to represent us on the 5 water issues. 6 Q How many members are there of CARE? 7 A Anyone that grows a vegetable. I couldn't 8 tell you exactly. Probably, at the present time, are 9 probably not more than 12, 15 people total left in the 10 business. 11 Q Are they all producers of fruits and 12 vegetables within the Everglades agriculture area? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Are there any members who are not producers of 15 vegetables? 16 A No. 17 Q In connection with your having forgotten the 18 lesson of not volunteering for anything? 19 A See you don't know how tough a hide I have. 20 Mainly to get out of the meeting, so I could go home. 21 Q Is that how the other named individuals on the 22 petition -- 23 A Dan Batts from FFDA office in Orlando said he 24 had to have three people to be willing to sign onto this 25 litigation and so three of us volunteered. It's that 8 1 simple. They needed three names and nobody else was 2 sticking up their hands and we all wanted to go home so the 3 three of us volunteered. 4 Q Mr. Pope, where do you live? 5 A Pahokee, Florida. 6 Q How long have you lived there? 7 A 1935. Six or seven years. 8 Q Where were you before that? 9 A Nowhere. 10 Q So, I guess you're roughly 57 years old? 11 A I was born in Atlanta, but my parents were 12 living in Pahokee at the time that has been my residence 13 ever since. 14 Q What did your family do in Pahokee? 15 A My father came into the area as a produce 16 buyer for A & P Company and back in the late 20's he got 17 into the farming business and we farmed. 18 Q Did Atlantic & Pacific have stores in this 19 area back then? 20 A No, but as within a chain store now and then 21 you follow the seasonal migration of the crop and you had 22 your own ground buyers and they travel between maybe 23 Eastern Shore of Maryland maybe Pahokee or Belle Glade. 24 Q Did you have your primary and secondary 25 education in the Pahokee area? 9 1 A I went to Pahokee Elementary and graduated 2 Pahokee High School. 3 Q What further education? 4 A A B.S. in Agriculture from University of 5 Florida. 6 Q When did you receive that? 7 A '57. 8 Q Was that before or after your military 9 service? 10 A Before. 11 Q When did you go in the military service? 12 A I went in the military in June of '57. 13 Q What was your military occupational specialty? 14 A I was a movement control specialist in 15 transportation. 16 Q Where were you assigned? 17 A Excuse me. 18 Q Where were you assigned? 19 A I took my basic training in Fort Jackson and 20 Fort Eustis, Virginia. 21 Q Were you an instructor there? 22 A No. 23 Q Just one hitch? 24 A It wasn't a a full hitch, it was a correlation 25 deal between the reserve unit here in West Palm Beach and 10 1 six months active duty and five and a half years at the 2 reserve unit. 3 Q After you completed your active duty service, 4 where did you go? 5 A I came back to Pahokee. 6 Q What did you do in civilian employment then? 7 A Went to farming. 8 Q Was that on your own farm or working for 9 someone else? 10 A My father and I were together for a brief 11 period of time and shortly after that I went on my own. 12 Q When had your father gotten into farming 13 himself? 14 A It would probably be somewhere between '32 and 15 '36, 1932 to 1936. 16 Q Was that vegetable farming? 17 A Right. 18 Q Did he ever farm anything other than 19 vegetable? 20 A No. 21 Q And how long were you with him before you went 22 on your own? 23 A Oh, probably three, three and a half years. 24 Q How did you get started yourself? 25 A Very poorly. He owned some land and I rented 11 1 some land and very little credit, started very small. 2 Q What is your current business organization or 3 structure through which you farmed? 4 A I'm sole entity of that farm. 5 Q So, Lewis Pope Farms? 6 A That is just a name. Any name you want to 7 pick out. 8 Q You are a sole proprietor? 9 A A sole proprietor. I have no corporations, no 10 officers. I am it. 11 Q How many employees do you have? 12 A Seasonal, it will vary. Personally, I only 13 probably have in the neighborhood of six or seven full-time 14 employees. Seasonally, when you're harvesting, I have a 15 contractor he may have 400, 450 employed, but I don't deal 16 with them directly. 17 Q And when you were taking your Bachelor of 18 Science degree, did you take any specialized courses? 19 A I got a degree in general agriculture which 20 meant you took a little of all of it. 21 Q Since completing that degree work, have you 22 taken any seminars or sort of retraining of any sort? 23 A No, just on the job whatever we were doing. 24 Q Do you subscribe to any extension work or 25 anything of that sort? 12 1 A No. 2 Q Do you have any dealings with IFIS? Do you 3 know what I mean by IFIS? 4 A Not directly. The last few months they have 5 been trying to get some funding for some sweet corn 6 research in the varietal differences, but it hasn't been 7 funded yet. We have had several discussions, but that's 8 it. 9 Q Is that with Lewis Pope Farm? 10 A Industry wise we had a Florida sweet corn 11 exchange and they came to the exchange at an annual meeting 12 and asked for funding. 13 MR. FITZGERALD: Mark this as Exhibit 1 for 14 this deposition. 15 (Thereupon, Exhibit 1 was marked for 16 identification by the court reporter.) 17 Q (By Mr. Fitzgerald) Mr. Pope, if I can ask 18 you to take a look at a copy of Exhibit 1, a notice of 19 taking deposition, do you recognize this to be the notice 20 that you received which is why you're here today? 21 A I got it right here. Primarily so, yes. 22 Q You indicated earlier that you basically had 23 no documents. I would like to point at a couple specific 24 sections. With regard to paragraph one, I understand that 25 you are saying that you have no documents. Do you mean 13 1 that you have no generalized documents regarding EAA 2 farming practices of your own? 3 A Regarding what? 4 Q Farming practices within the Everglades 5 agricultural area of general nature? 6 A No. 7 Q On number 2, you have previously provided 8 through counsel a handwritten list of the description, the 9 legal descriptions, of the plots that you farm? 10 A Of the plots that I own, not the plots that I 11 farm. Just the plots that I own. 12 Q So, you have not provided that to your 13 knowledge? 14 A They haven't asked for one. Is that what you 15 asked, for the land that I own? 16 Q Let's explore that a little bit. How many 17 plots of land do you personally own in the EAA? 18 A I own two hundred acres. My wife and I own 19 two hundred acres, and my mother and I own a trusteeship of 20 another 150 of some kind. 370 total. 21 Q And you farm all of that yourself? 22 A Right. 23 Q Do you lease out any of your property? 24 A No. 25 Q You're not a lessor? 14 1 A No. 2 Q Do you lease lands within the EAA for farming 3 purposes? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How much land do you lease? 6 A Probably in the neighborhood of fall crop and 7 spring crop 3000, 3500 acres. 8 Q Where is that located? 9 A In four to five to six different locations. 10 From Western Palm Beach County to State Road 80 east. Make 11 it simple, where ever South Bay Growers grows lettuce or 12 celery, I grow corn. 13 Q Do you have lease agreements, written lease 14 agreements for these properties? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do they describe the lease property by their 17 legal description? 18 A I just signed the current ones last week. 19 Q How long have you leased these same lands? 20 A It's not always the same lands. It depends on 21 the Sugar Cane rotation from year to year. Their policy is 22 they grow lettuce or celery in an area for maybe five or 23 six, seven years. They move onto cane land - sugar cane 24 and vegetables. So, when we are able to stay in an area 25 for three or four years we are very fortunate. 15 1 Q Do you try to lease the same amount of land 2 pretty much from year to year? 3 A When I went with these people in 1983, I was 4 leasing from Occalana at the time plus what I owned. It's 5 to fulfill their needs for volume of packages to sell. We 6 have to grow between roughly 13 hundred acres in the fall 7 of the year and our spring crop will consist of 28 hundred 8 to 32 hundred acres. 9 Q How long have you been farming roughly that 10 amount? 11 A Since '88, '89, '90, '91 in that area. There 12 have been times in '88 and '89 I have farmed more. 13 Q Can you tell me over the number of years 14 roughly when you say broke the thousand acre of farming 15 level? 16 A Probably 1982, 1983 somewhere in there. 17 Q The four parcels that you own either yourself 18 or in conjunction with co-owners, do you own these free and 19 clear? 20 A In fact it is in my wife's and my name. We 21 have a real estate mortgage on one parcel and the other was 22 financed with CD deposits. 23 Q The real estate mortgage is that financed 24 under the federal farm program? 25 MR. HOFFMAN: I want to object to these kind 16 1 of questions. I don't believe they are permissible 2 under the hearing officer's orders, who he has 3 mortgages with. I instruct him not to answer 4 outside the scope of this proceeding. I do want to 5 say as far as the identification of property, 6 there's been an inadvertent mistake. I wanted to 7 give you whatever he was farming I thought I had 8 done that, but we can get that. I will do that 9 tomorrow. 10 THE WITNESS: South Bay, we will have them fax 11 it to you. 12 MR. HOFFMAN: I thought we had something else. 13 The last question I wanted to instruct him not to 14 answer, who he owes money to, that is personal. 15 MR. FITZGERALD: I will accept that and file 16 the appropriate motion. 17 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. 18 Q (By Mr. Fitzgerald) From whom did you lease 19 the properties that you are currently farming that you 20 don't own? 21 A South Bay Growers Incorporated. 22 Q Who do you understand to be the owners of 23 South Bay? 24 A South Bay is a subsidary of the United States 25 Sugar Corporation. 17 1 Q On the farm and the lands that you farm under 2 lease, do you normally know what the prior land usage is 3 before you go in there to raise vegetables? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What is it customarily? 6 A Leaf crops which consist of everything from 7 iceberg lettuce to all your specialty lettuces and celery, 8 and sometimes we get on cane land and it's out of 9 production. 10 Q Have you grown sugar cane yourself? 11 A I grow one commodity, sweet corn. That is all 12 I grow. 13 Q That is my next question. All your properties 14 are sweet corn? 15 A Correct. 16 Q How many crops can you grow on a particular 17 plot in a given year? 18 A Hopefully, you get two crops in. Due to heavy 19 rain due to frost freezes, you don't always get that second 20 crop or if you do it is a reduced crop. But our goal is to 21 start planting late August and mid March to late March is 22 to get two crops in. 23 Q Do you ever rotate crops yourself? 24 A No, I grow simply one item, sweet corn. 25 Q What are the Water Management requirements for 18 1 sweet corn? 2 A I don't know the Water Managment's 3 requirements for sweet corn. 4 Q The properties that you own, do you have 5 connections to the primary canals of the Water Management 6 District? 7 A I'm a 298 District, which pumps into the lake 8 to the East Beach drainage district which services the 9 community of Pahokee in a small area of surrounding farm 10 land and that's the only -- I have no pumps of my own as a 11 drainage district tax situation. 12 Q So, all your property is within that 298? 13 A In the 298 District. 14 Q In that structure, if there is a storm event 15 that puts an excessive amount of water in the conveyance 16 canals in the farm areas that you are farming, how do you 17 arrange for draw down of that? 18 A The people that are in charge of drainage 19 districts they have their criteria limitations set by the 20 state and I guess the Water Management District on what 21 level of rain you have to have before you can start 22 pumping. I have no input into that whatsoever. 23 Q That's what I meant by Water Management 24 requirements. If you need to draw irrigation water because 25 of a dry season, I assume that happens sometimes, how do 19 1 you arrange for an appropriate amount of irrigation water? 2 A If you have a dry year, I think, under the 3 present rules and regulations the district can let lake 4 water into the district on Mondays and Thursdays during a 5 period of terrible dry weather or drought and that's it. 6 Q Do you conduct any testing or evaluation in 7 your fields to determine whether pumping may be necessary 8 or irrigation necessary during the course of the relevancy 9 of the pumping? 10 A I don't conduct any tests whatsoever, other 11 than the fact, that like on September the 28th we had nine 12 and half inches of rain in about five hours and it doesn't 13 take a genius to know that the pumps needed to be running. 14 If your crops are under stress which you can see with the 15 naked eye usually dry conditions but as far as tests, no. 16 Q Do you have any irrigation equipment that you 17 control yourself in order to irrigate your properties? 18 A In the case of dry conditions, I have a 19 portable mobilized pump and a quarter mile reel that I can 20 go out a quarter of a mile and we pump out of the drainage 21 canals and it reels back in which we used in the last three 22 weeks due to the drought conditions. 23 Q Which ended in the last couple of days? 24 A Which ended last Monday. 25 Q Does that connect to like one of these water 20 1 cannons? 2 A Yes, it's the same thing you see, you know, 3 all lettuce in fields are wet previous to planting because 4 you have to have the moisture in the ground to form the bed 5 on which they plant the lettuce and I have the same thing, 6 but I don't use it except under conditions of drought. 7 Q Have you ever experienced a situation where 8 you wanted to irrigate it yourself and there was 9 insufficient water in the conveyance canals? 10 A Not up to this point, no. 11 Q Do you have somebody that you can contact at 12 the 298 District? 13 A You can call their office down at the Glades 14 Courthouse. Ronnie Graden (phonetic) he is the fellow that 15 manages several of those water control districts, but they 16 know more than you do about what's going on in the district 17 as far as dry conditions, wet conditions, or what have you. 18 Q The four plats that you own directly or with a 19 family member, do you know what the farming history of 20 those were prior to you acquiring them? 21 A One of them has been in vegetables since 1937, 22 1938 and the other one was in vegetables and went into cane 23 and now back in vegetables. 24 Q When did it revert to vegetables? 25 A I bought it in January of '91 and -- 21 1 Q That's recent? 2 A Recently, right. 3 Q What fertilizers are called for by sweet corn 4 since that's your only crop? 5 A Sometimes none. If you follow lettuce, 6 particularly celery, you have such a high fertility you 7 don't need any. On our inside land, to kind of answer your 8 question and not be evasive, you have different types of 9 mucks in the area. The area that I own the parcels in 10 itself, a heavy warmland close to the lake, it's a heavy 11 gumbo and has a high plate content. These outer layers 12 that we farm they are a very lose muck and a shallower 13 muck. If you have your soil tested, experimentation will 14 tell you no fertilizer needed. 15 By the same token, you have a chemical 16 reaction during heavy periods of rain where your 17 fertilizers become unavailable to the root system and to 18 the crop. So, we always use a little leeway in putting 19 more down on that older land and it has been farmed since 20 1918, 1920, 1925. 21 Q What fertilizers do you customarily have to 22 use on those older lands? 23 A My primary mix is O-10/20 a little magnesium 24 and zinc. 25 Q Copper? 22 1 A No copper, never. Unless, it's new land that 2 you are taking and there is no new land left. 3 Q How do you actually apply and when in the 4 growth cycle do you apply that? 5 A At the present time we either band or 6 broadcast. On the corn, if we are using any at all we will 7 broadcast fertilizer. If we have heavy periods of rain 8 where your fertilizer is leafing out or becomes unavailable 9 due to chemical lock up or tie up reaction we will side 10 dress with liquid fertilizer. 11 Q In your broadcast and banding initially, is 12 that land preparation prior to planting or does that occur 13 after the crop sprouts? 14 A What is that? 15 Q At what stage in the growth phase, planning 16 and growth stage? 17 A Well, your land preparation comes first. 18 Q Do you fertilize at that stage? 19 A Yes, before we put the seed in the ground. 20 Q And then do you have to disk that in? 21 A We disk it in or run a land level over it. 22 There are several different instruments you can use. 23 Depending on the seasons. Some years in the fall of the 24 year you don't want to seal the ground up to tight because 25 you anticipate rain. And if it's real dry conditions you 23 1 want to seal the ground up. 2 Q Do you routinely do soil tests through a lab 3 or IFIS or something? 4 A South Bay does all the samples for their land. 5 They have a soil lab of their own and we pull samples on 6 the land that I own at times and have them sampled. 7 Q So, is part of your lease arrangement with 8 South Bay that they do the test? 9 A Under the new way things are gonna be done 10 from now on, they are gonna tell you what you can use and 11 how to use it. Up until now, we have had an option of, you 12 know, putting it back or putting it on or not putting it 13 back. The primary objection now is when you're farming 14 lettuce or celery, if you want to use a little fertilizer, 15 you're doing it not to use all the residual fertilizer up 16 so there will be nothing left in the fall for the next 17 crop. 18 Under the new system that is being 19 implemented, they will take a soil sampling and they will 20 tell us what fertilizer if any is needed and what form to 21 put it out in. 22 Q Who explained the new system to you? 23 A I have just been living in the area and know 24 what's going on with the, you know, the phosphates and this 25 that and the other. Nobody explained anything to me. 24 1 Q Is that in the lease agreement that they have 2 that authority? 3 A I didn't even read the one I signed last week. 4 Doesn't have to be in there because whatever they tell me I 5 have to do because under that situation chemical wise I 6 have to follow the exact letter of the law. 7 Q Do you produce solely for South Bay? Do they 8 receive all you have your crop? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Both from the owned and leased property? 11 A Correct. 12 Q You're an independent producer for them? 13 A Right. 14 Q Are there others that produce the same way? 15 A From them? 16 Q Yes. 17 A They have an independent radish grower and he 18 grows a few leaf items and that's all. 19 Q Is that common in the EAA for vegetable 20 growers to produce as independents for a centralized packer 21 or distributor? 22 A The best way I can answer is give you an 23 example. In 1965, if we wanted to have a sweet corn 24 exchange meeting you had to have at least 25 or 30 people 25 to have a quorum. Today when we have a meeting if you get 25 1 five or seven in the room we have a quorum. The attrition 2 rate in the last 30 years has been drastic in all farming 3 operation. There is a few of us involved. Well, I guess I 4 am a survivor of the declining process. 5 Q Who is the largest vegetable farmer in the 6 EAA, if you know? 7 A Probably South Bay or A. Doogen & Sons. I 8 don't know which. 9 Q Does South Bay actually grow for itself as 10 well as have independency? 11 A They grow leaf crop, lettuce and celery. 12 Q Why did they lease the land to you if they're 13 growing it anyway? 14 A Because I do a damn good job. I don't have 15 all the overhead these folks have. I am an individual with 16 a couple sons working for me and I can do things cheaper 17 than they can do it, and they get the -- See it's not a one 18 way street. Ever package I send through there grosses them 19 a dollar and a nickel on the precooling which is 20 hydrocooling which has to be done and it's 85 cents and 21 they charge me 20 cents a package sale. 22 Q Do you pack in the field? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Is that why you have such a high number of 25 seasonal workers because that is labor intensive? 26 1 A Yes. In the spring of the year, we pulled as 2 high as 58 thousand crates of corn in a day that's about 8 3 or 9 mule trains and each mule train or harvesting machine 4 consists of 50 people. My contractor may have 400 or 500 5 people. 6 Q Does the fertilizer you perform have 7 phosphorus as one element? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you use nematacides? 10 A I don't understand what you mean. We have 11 wire worm problems. In planting time, we use an insecticide 12 grandular in form. 13 Q Because of the way you lease and farm, do you 14 have any options of flooding the land prior to farming it 15 to control pests? 16 A No, I do not. This is the first year this 17 past summer in three years they have been able to flood. 18 The basics for flooding the lettuce and leaf crops and 19 celery land is you destroy the life cycle of the soil in 20 seconds. 21 Q You do not have that option? 22 A No, I do not. 23 Q Do you use herbicides of any type? 24 A Yes. 25 Q What do you use? 27 1 A Atrazine. 2 Q What is the purpose of using atrazine? 3 A Atrazine is put on the first spraying after 4 emergency of your crop. It will give you control over the 5 sticker weed, pig weed, parsely, and things of that nature 6 and that's it. It has no control whatsoever over grasses. 7 Q How about rippners? 8 A No. 9 Q Are there any other agricultural chemicals 10 that you apply to your fields or crops? 11 A Fungicides and insecticides. 12 Q In the properties that you personally own or 13 with a family member, have you observed any soil subsidence 14 during the period of time you own the properties? 15 A Having lived there for 57 years and since it's 16 where my father built his house and I built my house on the 17 shoreline of Lake Okeechobee, I learned subsidence, yes. 18 Q You were talking about the parcels that you 19 own being warm lands - warm farm lands. I understand what 20 you mean by that, but the hearing officer won't. Can you 21 explain for the record what that is? 22 A The lands that are close within a mile or two 23 and some of them are real close to the area. As you can 24 see in that map behind you there, that little black area on 25 the southeast corner there, that's where I am that is close 28 1 to the lake and during a very severe cold spell you get air 2 currents that come off the lake there and historically the 3 farther away from the lake you go the colder your land is. 4 Q Is your land essentially frost free? 5 A No, it's not frost free. I froze out in '88, 6 and '89. It beats the average on a night where we may have 7 36 or 38 it maybe 18, 19, 20, 24 in the outdoor bend area. 8 Q Can you estimate for me over the time that you 9 have observed the property that you have the ownership 10 interest in, how much subsidence have you observed in the 11 fields? 12 A I really couldn't give you an estimate. 13 Q Are you -- 14 A It's such a gradual process. It's nothing 15 like -- I have been watching it for 57 years and it's so 16 gradual that, you know, a house built in '37 or '38 it 17 hasn't been that drastic and the fields they subside every 18 year. 19 Q You mentioned you have two different types of 20 muck soils. Do you know on your own properties what 21 roughly the muck depths are on those properties? 22 A This area that I pointed out to you that we 23 own can be anywhere from 8, 10 to 20 feet deep, it's 24 terribly deep. 25 Q How about the leased properties that you -- 29 1 A The leased property you may have anywhere 2 from -- I have leased land down there in different areas 3 over the years. You may have anywhere from two feet to 4 four feet. 5 Q Is that also Pahokee muck? 6 A No, the Pahokee muck, it maybe termed Pahokee 7 muck, they have several different classifications. You 8 probably know the area I pointed out to you a very clay 9 base gumbo. As you go south, you have a sawgrass. The 10 farther south you go and some degree you have the sawgrass 11 muck. It never had the depth, it has always been shallow. 12 As you go down toward the Broward County line, you run out 13 of muck. 14 Q What's the shallowest on the properties that 15 you own right now, the minimum muck depth? 16 A I would say seven, eight, nine feet the 17 minimum. 18 Q So, in your view the muck or soil depth 19 situation is not likely to limit your ability to farm for 20 quite some time? 21 A The only thing that would be limited would be 22 these certain high ridges that you have through your 23 fields. See, the area we are in used to be old river bonds 24 and you have these high heavy clay muck deposits and these 25 high limitations and periods of high divisions. You can't 30 1 get seeds in them. In periods of wet condition, it 2 compacts so bad it's like an asphalt road. 3 Q Are you familiar with the literature on the 4 subject of subsidence and mineralization of soil? 5 A I am not familiar with literature. I have 6 been hearing about subsidence for 35 or 40 years and it's a 7 fact of life. 8 Q You didn't take any particular steps on your 9 farms to minimize subsidence during the summer months? 10 A When we are out of production we are growing a 11 cover crop or spectrum of some variety that allows you to 12 have a green cover during the summer. It avoids runoff 13 from heavy rains which is our heavy rainy season. It 14 provides a cover that keeps this hard clay from getting 15 harder. 16 Q Can you commercial market that cover crop? 17 A No, we disk it back into the ground. 18 Q You don't fertilize that crop? 19 A No, that follows whatever our spring growing 20 crop was. 21 Q Where's the corn coming from now? 22 A The Glade they started last week. 23 Q Harvest? 24 A Harvest, right. 25 Q And how long will the harvest last? 31 1 A Can't tell you this year, but last year we 2 started on the 27th of October and wound up the 9th or 10th 3 of June. It wasn't continuously. We had our fall crop 4 skip and then start replanting in January until spring. 5 Q You're a member of the FFDA? 6 A Correct. 7 Q How long have you been a member? 8 A I guess, I have been a member about eight or 9 nine years. 10 Q What are the membership requirements as you 11 understand? 12 A Well, there are two ways. You can be a paying 13 member or nonpaying member or assessement member that pays 14 a flat nominal fee. I think at the present time a maximum 15 of 12 or 15 a year, $12,500, or a penny a package on 16 anything less than that. 17 Q Penny a package of what is produced? 18 A What we harvest and send through the -- 19 Q Aren't the packages all different values from 20 different crops and all. How do you even that out? 21 A They don't even it out, it's a penny a 22 package. 23 Q It's an interesting way to assess the members? 24 A I can say for sure maybe on something like 25 radishes in different size they may have a different 32 1 schedule. Say on your lettuce crop, sweet corn, or what 2 have you, it's a penny a package up to the maximum and 3 after that that's it. 4 Q Based on your acreage, I guess, you hit the 5 maximum? 6 A We hit the maximum several times and this year 7 we were somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 or 500 hundred 8 under the maximum. 9 Q The 298 District that you referenced, which 10 298 District are you in? 11 A The East Beach drainage system. 12 Q Are you taxed by that district for their 13 service? 14 A Heavily. 15 Q What is the taxation rate? 16 A Forty dollars an acre per year. 17 Q Owned or leased, 40 bucks an acre? 18 A Right. 19 Q The more you have the more you buy them? 20 A I can't speak for the other areas. In this 21 one area, the East Beach drainage district is $440 per acre 22 per year. 23 Q Your leased properties vary year to year? 24 A Right. 25 Q Are they also in the 298 District? 33 1 A No, they are all outside of the 298 District. 2 Q On the properties outside the 298 District, 3 how are irrigation and drainage controlled? 4 A South Bay Growers control irrigation, they 5 have there own. 6 Q They have pumps? 7 A They have their pumps. 8 Q Do you hold any permits to actually discharge? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you hold any consumptive use? 11 A No. 12 Q So, you are operating under the permits held 13 by Southeast Growers? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You don't have permits for that, you just pay 16 the taxation? 17 A Right. 18 Q Are you required to have permits of any sort 19 for chemical application in order to fertilize to put 20 fertilizer on your property. Any kind of permits for that? 21 A No, the only requirements in the lease that -- 22 You use no product that is illegal. If it has a label, you 23 can use it. If it is called for on the crop you're growing 24 we have to adhere very stringently to that or we would be 25 booted. 34 1 Q Do you have petroleum facilities on your 2 property? 3 A Three mobile, not trucks, but fuel tanks and 4 wagons. 5 Q Do they require permits? 6 A No, not if they are a wagon. For every one 7 thousand gallon on the ground you have to put in a 8 retaining wall and build your wall. 9 Q You have none of those? 10 A None of those. On all these lease properties 11 they have that. 12 Q So, up to now you don't have any permits -- 13 A No. 14 Q -- for farming in the EAA? 15 A No. 16 Q Are you familiar with the new BMP Rule passed 17 by South Florida Water Mangement District? 18 A I have attended these meetings and I have 19 discussed. I don't know anybody that's to damn clear on 20 it. 21 Q Have you applied for a permit under that 22 program? 23 A No. 24 Q Is it your understanding you don't have to 25 because of the location and nature of your property? 35 1 A As far as I know, I could say for my property 2 and leased property they apply for all those permits and 3 things of that nature. 4 Q Are you participating in someone elses master 5 permit application? 6 A In the case of the leased land it would be 7 South Bay Growers and in the case of 298 District it would 8 be East Beach Water Management. 9 Q It's your understanding for the land you own 10 they are putting master permits? 11 A We don't have to be an individual district. 12 Q Do you know who prepared the permit for the 13 298 District, the application? 14 A I assume it was out of the office of Ronnie 15 Gardner, I don't know. 16 Q Are you opting for the early base line 17 options? Do you know what I mean by that? 18 A I can't honestly give you an answer. I know 19 roughly what you mean, but I'm not -- I can't tell you what 20 I'm opting for or not. 21 Q Have you ever lost a crop due to drought? 22 A A small acreage about in '89 on some of this 23 gumbo muck close to the lake, but nothing major. 24 Q How about due to flooding? 25 A About once or twice a year that's the whole 36 1 point of having all these vegetable farms spread out. 2 Historically, you have certain strips this that and the 3 other that prevailing winds will carry rain heavier away 4 from the lake in some areas. So, if you are in the three 5 or four or five different areas you're in chance of 6 surviving a flood or heavy rain fall are greater. 7 Q So, when you say every year you tend to lose 8 something to flooding, it's a discreet portion of your 9 growth area not throughout the parcels that you own and 10 lease? 11 A We lost corn to about a five inch rain on the 12 28th of September. In another area, it was too wet to even 13 plant. In another area the same day, we had nine and a 14 half inches. We had three quarters of an inch in Miami 15 Canal and that's all I can tell you. 16 Q Can you retain water or hold water? 17 A Only in the drainage ditches and canals that 18 are there. 19 Q Do you have any gates where you can stop it? 20 A No, all of our laterals are tied in with the 21 main drainage districts big canal. 22 Q So, there is no way for you to hold whatever 23 water falls on your parcel? 24 A Well, we did quite frequently as late 25 September because it stayed for two weeks. 37 1 Q But in the canals? 2 A No, in the fields we couldn't get it out. 3 Q Was the district pumping during that time? 4 A They started pumping that day about eight or 5 nine in the morning, but they had one pump out of 6 commission and the water gained on them for twenty-four 7 hours. It ran out of the laterals and big canals into the 8 fields. It flooded certain homes and residential sites in 9 town. 10 Q That's the only parcels you have up near 11 Pahokee. What's the land elevation there, if you know? 12 A I really don't know. I have always assumed it 13 operated on the assumption since I worked back in a survey 14 crew up in Cape Canaveral, this area and Homestead area is 15 between 10 and 13 above sea level to the best of my 16 knowledge and that's not a firm. 17 Q Do you have staff gauges in your fields, staff 18 gauges, site gauges? 19 A We have water gauges to measure rain, if you 20 will, that's all. 21 Q Do you have any gauges or anyway of 22 determining the depth of the water table in your fields 23 under your fields? 24 A No. 25 Q How deep is the root zone on sweet corn? 38 1 A The what? 2 Q The root zone? 3 A It depends on whether you have wet conditions. 4 It would be very restricted which means you can put the 5 root -- you can stalk corn in your hand. Under normal 6 conditions, it can spread out microscopically the naked eye 7 couldn't see how far the fiber roots go out. 8 Q Do you have any idea in depth how that 9 penetrates below the surface? 10 A I would say probably in the neighborhood of 48 11 inches it's straight down and probably double that because 12 when you plant you plant in a row your spacing is thus and 13 so close the space between the roads is a different ball 14 game. You plan on eight and five eighth inches, but your 15 separation is 38 inches. 16 Q Have you read the Swim Plan that the district 17 past in March? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you read any drafts? 20 A The only thing was what they discussed at 21 these CARE meetings. 22 Q Who's the source of the CARE meetings or was 23 the source of what is really in the plan? 24 A Mr. Schlechter who's here this morning he has 25 attended a lot of them and he is in charge or he was 39 1 elected head or chair of the CARE deal and then the people 2 at South Bay they attend all water control meetings. 3 Q Does Mr. Schlechter have any special 4 background that led to him being selected? 5 A No basic background. He is about like myself 6 he survived and there is very few of us left. 7 Q Is it your sense that the acreage in vegetable 8 production has gone down or the number of producers? 9 A The vegetable acreage is probably down in 10 certain areas particularly celery. You're left with three 11 producers of celery and probably down next year you will 12 have two. It really depends on the economics of growing a 13 crop. Celery and lettuce are expensive crops to grow, a 14 lot of hand labor, ecetera, ecetera. Sweet corn, other 15 than green beans, are probably one of the cheaper crops. 16 Its not cheap at standpoint. Now, back compared to the 17 60's we are down mainly due to the increase in sugar cane 18 acreage in the 30 year period. 19 Q So, it's your sense that the acreage going out 20 of vegetable production has gone in sugar cane production? 21 A Sure, if you are vegetable rotating sugar cane 22 production it would be drastically lower. 23 Q If it cost you $7.50 to produce -- 24 A No, $750. 25 Q I need to be clear on that. That cost you 40 1 $750 dollars an acre to produce. What kind of production 2 did you get off an acre? 3 A Anywhere from zero to 600 packages per acre. 4 It would depend on the stress factor during weather 5 conditions. The maximum would be 400 or 415. 6 Q Have you historically up to now have any water 7 quality monitoring? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you have any plans to do water quality 10 monitoring? 11 A In my case, other than what the drainage 12 district does, no there is somebody in the area monitoring 13 the water there in this canal, that canal, somebody, 14 private agencies, but they're doing it for somewhat. I 15 don't stop them continuously. So, somebody's doing, it 16 it's not me. 17 Q Nobody ever comes around? 18 A Nobody said can I or can't I. Apparently they 19 are private agencies, but I don't know whether it's the 20 Water Management District sampling it in the East Beach 21 multiple times during the year. 22 Q So, it's your understanding that the 298 23 District or South Bay will take care of any water quality 24 monitoring required for the new BMP permit? 25 A In the case of South Beach -- In case we don't 41 1 have the individual pumps it has to be on a district wide 2 basis. All of our lateral, all of our main canals, are all 3 tied together in that one drainage district and the water 4 flows out through the lake into the same canal from all 5 farms. 6 Q Have you altered your farming over the last 7 five to ten years for reason of water quality? 8 A I don't think so, no. 9 Q Have you altered your farm management practice 10 over the last five or ten years? 11 A No. 12 Q You always banded fertilizer? 13 A I do not band fertilize unless it is 14 absolutely necessary. Unless an injury of the crop -- Let 15 me correct myself in the 50's and 60's early 70's, we 16 banded all fertilizer as we planted. We went to broadcast 17 it would be '72 up to the present date. 18 Q Why do you broadcast instead of band? 19 A Well, it's so convenient. 20 Q When you're broadcasting, how do you keep the 21 fertilizer out of the drainage canals? 22 A That depends on the distance the truck stays 23 away from the canal and the band they throw it out. I know 24 they get it in there at certain times, but it's like if you 25 were banding and turning on ends you could easily get 42 1 something in the drainage. 2 Q Could you describe for me what impacts in the 3 farming practices for Lewis Pope Farms you expect the Swim 4 Plan to have? 5 A Well, I don't have much knowledge on it, but 6 the best thing I could tell you we are in a changing mode 7 as to what practices we are using and we'll use in the 8 future. If it went through its most drastic form, possibly 9 we would be out of business. The reason I say that, we 10 just don't throw them in a box we are governed by USDA 11 grade standards. You have to have around fifteen pounds an 12 acre or what happens, if you go ten or less pounds an acre, 13 your crop grows off and looks pretty good, but when you go 14 to pull it you have a tip that didn't fill. You're not 15 allowed that much under USDA standards. So, with new 16 innovations, we can maintain the grade standards or if it's 17 drastic where we don't have the nutrients we need USDA is 18 going to have to change their rules and regulations or 19 their buying habits. 20 Q When you say in the most drastic form, what do 21 you mean? 22 A I would be broke and out of business. 23 Q What is the most drastic version that you 24 think? 25 A I am not that familiar that I can tell you if 43 1 they cut -- In my case, if they cut me down, no matter how 2 they put it out, if they cut me 15 pounds per acre where 3 it's needed I would come up with an unmarketable produce. 4 Q I understand. If a combination of water 5 management practices and business management practices at a 6 farm level assured you the ability to put that 15 pounds 7 per acre where you need it, is there any reason to believe 8 the Swim Plan would put you out of business? 9 A Only maybe through the taxes they are going to 10 have to be raised to support this thing. I think they have 11 it that in effect today and what this is gonna cost and if 12 it cost on our per acre basis, yes, because you're probably 13 not familiar with it. 14 At the present time, the vegetable industry in 15 this country particularly from North Florida and South 16 Florida is in a very precarious position. We've diaster 17 dating back to April and due to disaster results price 18 waste. I left 180 acres they would have to dish back in, 19 you couldn't sell it for thirty dollars and it's costing me 20 $2.30 to harvest it and put it in the box and get it 21 through South Bay and you couldn't even sell it at that. 22 My views and observations what's going on 23 vegetablewise is in a very precarious position right now 24 and related to the Swim Plan or not it could get worse on 25 the Swim Plan. 44 1 Q Have you heard the figure of 25 dollars an 2 acre? 3 A I really -- Something like that. 4 Q You hadn't heard it before? 5 A I seen charts projected from 10 to 1 hundred 6 dollars per acre. These are just projections. 7 Q Have you gone to many of those meetings 8 through the news media? 9 A Through the news media or CARE meetings. 10 MR. HOFFMAN: This twenty-five dollars an acre 11 did you mean tax. He seemed to understand. I want 12 to make sure we are talking about same thing. 13 THE WITNESS: It would be in a form of tax. 14 Q (By Mr. Fitzgerald) It's your understanding 15 one of the numbers being discussed as a charge against the 16 farming industry for purposes of reservation would be 17 approximately twenty-five dollars per acre; is that 18 correct? 19 A That's what I read in the paper. They did not 20 say that is per year, one time, or multiple times so I 21 can't give you any other answer. I did read it in the 22 paper. 23 Q If it were twenty-five dollars per acre per 24 year, would that exceed the economic utility to you in 25 farming in the EAA? 45 1 MR. RUSSELL: We are geting into individual 2 economics I think I will let him determine whether-- 3 THE WITNESS: Let me answer it at this time. 4 MR. HOFFMAN: I want to interpose an objection 5 he has been giving numbers and talking about things, 6 but the question deals with the impact just in 7 dollars and taxes not whether it would force him out 8 of business. Certainly, he has got opinions about 9 it so I want to object. Could you read back that 10 question. 11 (Thereupon, the pending question was read 12 back.) 13 MR. HOFFMAN: We are objecting on the grounds 14 of materiality and relevance, but if the witness 15 thinks he understands the question, if he has an 16 answer, go ahead. 17 THE WITNESS: Did you understand the question? 18 Can you answer it. 19 THE WITNESS: What do you want me to do. I'm 20 putting it this way, any item whether it be the 21 twenty-five dollars tax increase or any produce land 22 rents or anything like that that were increased in 23 that area would have a very detrimental effect. I 24 can not tell you if it would put you out of business 25 or not likely can I tell you how. We are in a mode 46 1 at the present time wherever it is increased no 2 matter what area it hurts. 3 Q (By Mr. Fitzgerald) In the petition filed on 4 your behalf it states that a concern is that your property 5 will be used for STAs for stormwater treatment areas. Do 6 you have any reason to believe in fact your property would 7 be used for proposed STAs for the Swim Plan? 8 A I can't honestly answer that. I do not know. 9 Q Do you know where the STAs are proposed to be 10 located currently? 11 A I don't know whether they are proposed in the 12 East Beach. That would be the only area I would have a 13 personal interest in. 14 Q So, if in fact, none of the proposed or 15 potentially built STAs are located at the northend of the 16 EAA, your lands would not be directly affected in anyway in 17 terms of being used for STAs, if that's clear? 18 MR. HOFFMAN: I object to the form of the 19 question because the question kind of assumes where 20 its known STAs would be built. I understand they 21 are not how large the STAs would be and therefore no 22 one knows if they will be and because of the form of 23 the question and not having all the facts. 24 MR. FITZGERALD: The current Swim Plan 25 designates the location of the potential STAs. If 47 1 those STAs were ultimately built as identified in 2 the approved Swim Plan dated March 23 by the Board 3 of South Florida Management District they were all 4 located at the south end of the EAA immediately 5 adjacent to Loxahatchee Wild Life Refuge and water 6 conservation areas. You own no lands in that area? 7 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. 8 Q (By Mr. Fitzgerald) So, your personal farming 9 would not be affected in so far as your rented or owned 10 property? 11 A Other than fees to do all these things. 12 Q I understand. Now, you sat through 13 Mr. Schlecter's deposition this morning, did you not? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Some of this may sound a little repetitious 16 basically you and he are similar situated so your petition 17 - the petition filed on your behalf or technically by you 18 list 85 material facts in dispute related to technical 19 aspects of the current historical and future situation of 20 the Everglades and the Water Conservation Areas. Have you 21 read those 85 allegations? 22 A I have not. 23 Q Do you have anyway of substantiated from your 24 own knowledge whether those are true or not or correct 25 statements of things as they exist or did not exist? 48 1 A I couldn't comment on them because I haven't 2 read them. 3 Q Let me take a select few and see if you have 4 opinions. Your material fact Number 4, whether hydroperiod 5 is the primary source of vegetative changes purportedly 6 identified in the Park, EPA and the Refuge by the Plan? 7 A Personnelly, no, I don't have. 8 Q Are you personally familiar with whether there 9 are or have been any vegetated changes in those areas? 10 A Personally, no. 11 Q Do you have any opinion on whether there is 12 environmental damage in or threatening the park or refuge 13 as nutrients flowing in and out of the EAA? 14 A There's a possibility of some pollution. You 15 need to take it up with the Corps of Engineers and 16 channelization (phonetic) of the Kissimee River. In 1960, 17 '61, '62 where all the affluent was run off and everything 18 that was in the flood plan in Orlando South and channelized 19 (phonetic) into the lake due to the fact they needed a few 20 more feet of water in the lake. Come to find out the lake 21 doesn't. They wanted to lower it a little. Now, they want 22 to rechannelize it and they want to lower the lake level on 23 a permanent basis what they thought they needed 30 years 24 ago because of sunlight, and what have you, chemical 25 reactions. The lake is not self-cleaning as its lower lake 49 1 level where you get more sunlight. 2 Q What do you base your view that it's the 3 Kissimee River project that is the cause of the -- 4 A I am sure that fertilizers in our area over a 5 period of time have added a certain element. How much I 6 can not tell you. 7 Q Do you participate in any U.S. Department of 8 Agriculture programs? 9 A No, I do not. 10 Q Have you ever provided production data to USDA 11 for statistics they put together? 12 A Once or twice a year. Some years you get a 13 flyer from I don't know Commerce Department or this that or 14 the other. They may ask you when you're gonna start 15 harvesting or what you plan. Other than that, that's all. 16 Q Have they done an audit review of your data 17 that you provided them? They sometimes send someone out. 18 A It's so minute. How many acres are you gonna 19 plant this fall? It's more to do with labor - availability 20 of labor and whether the people would be employable during 21 certain periods and that's the only thing. 22 Q Have you personally funded any research in any 23 of these issues, you know, the issues in the Swim Plan and 24 Challenge? 25 A The only thing is through the CARE program. 50 1 Q Do any of your members also belong to the 2 Sugar Cane League? 3 A Yes. You have very few vegetable farmers per 4 se most of them are involved in sugar cane. 5 Q How many per vegetable farmers would you 6 estimate that in the EAA? 7 A Excuse me. 8 Q How many just vegetables? 9 A Less right now then there were in June. 10 Several bankruptcies. Oh, probably five or less that don't 11 have an interest in cane and know nothing about vegetable. 12 Q Do you have any basis for your assertion as a 13 challenged fact in your petition, whether it is feasible to 14 collect and treat stormwater from the EAA to the levels 15 "required" by the Plan to better than rainfall purity? 16 A I don't have any information. I told you, I 17 didn't read them. 18 Q So, we don't have to read paragraph by 19 paragraph. Is it fair on those 85 allegations you 20 basically accept those as drafted and you have not 21 personally researched those one way or another? 22 A That's what we hire attorneys for. 23 Q Who did? 24 A I have no idea. 25 Q So, prior to having this petition submitted 51 1 with your name on it as one of the petitioning parties, you 2 haven't even read it? 3 A No, the other fellows involved may have, I 4 don't know. My position was they needed a body and I am a 5 body and I have an invested interest in vegetables. 6 Q Mr. Schlecter and Mr. Hemely? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Did Mr. Botts (phonetic) have any 9 participation in that? 10 A I would assume he probably did. He is the man 11 that we deal with up to this level. 12 Q Does he attend your CARE meetings? 13 A I think most all of them, yes. 14 Q Have you ever spoken before the board? 15 A Which board? 16 Q The Board of South Florida Water Management? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you submitted any letters or comments on 19 any of those proposals? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you attended any of the public meetings 22 at which have been discussed? 23 A No. 24 Q Have you attended any of the funding? 25 A No. 52 1 Q Has anybody on your behalf done that? 2 A They had somebody from South Bay that was 3 gonna be there and so that's directly - indirectly, that's 4 in my behalf. 5 Q Would the same be true with meetings with the 6 Fruit and Vegetables Association be present as a member, 7 you would view that in your behalf? 8 A The only meetings -- I don't even go to 9 conventions. The only meetings I attend are the CARE 10 meetings and write them a check once a year, that's the 11 only contact I have with them. Other than that, I have 12 self-insured funding and take my workmen's compensation out 13 through them. FEAA is an organization that can on behalf 14 of individual farmers be much more efficiently than the 15 individual farmers can operate in matters on this on there 16 own. 17 MR. HOFFMAN: I thought he missed your 18 question whether he did or not he was asking whether 19 FEAA represents your interests? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, FEAA represents my 21 interests. My name is on that paper I showed you 22 today. 23 Q (By Mr. Fitzgerald) Has anyone or any entity 24 provided you documentation or studies to support 25 alternative mechanisms of cleaning up the water opposed to 53 1 the Swim Plan proposals? 2 A No. 3 Q Have you examined any of those issues? 4 A No. 5 Q Has your wife ever addressed the board? 6 A No, my wife is an employee of the Palm Beach 7 County court system and she stays completely out of all 8 things political. 9 Q The only reason I ask, there was a statement 10 sometime back by a woman of about your age that said she 11 grew sweet corn and I did not watch her name and I thought 12 perhaps it was her. She made a very good presentation 13 actually. 14 I would like to have a minute to make sure I 15 didn't miss anything here. Do you maintain farm records of 16 you know annual production and production from particular 17 farm sites? 18 A Not on an individual basis. I can give you a 19 round figure for a couple of years for say '88, '89, '90, 20 '91 in this past year. 21 MR. HOFFMAN: I instruct you not to give 22 specific farm information about your own farm, 23 that's a legal position. I am going to instruct you 24 not to answer questions. 25 MR. FITZGERALD: If I can clarify. 54 1 MR. HOFFMAN: He was going to go off on some 2 tangent. 3 THE WITNESS: I keep very few records. I 4 wasn't going to go off -- 5 Q (By Mr. Fitzgerald) Did you maintain any 6 records of how much fertilizer you employ on your different 7 plots of lands on your farm? 8 A You can go back on a year to year basis for a 9 couple of years and look at your fertilizer. I don't keep 10 a separate log or anything. 11 Q You would have records that reflect that 12 individual purchase by farm site? 13 A The people I did business with would have 14 depending on how they keep their records. 15 MR. FITZGERALD: I believe that completes it. 16 MR. HOFFMAN: You have a right to read and 17 sign if they order this deposition. Just so there 18 is no problems with it I think you should read. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 1 CERTIFICATE STATE OF FLORIDA ) 2 :SS COUNTY OF BROWARD ) 3 4 I, Brenda Weinerth, a Shorthand Reporter and 5 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, do 6 hereby certify that I reported the deposition of EDWARD L. 7 POPE, JR., a witness called by the Plaintiff in the 8 above-styled cause; that the witness was duly sworn by me 9 to tell the whole truth; that the foregoing pages, numbered 10 1 to 55, inclusive, constitute a true record of the 11 deposition of said witness as stenographically recorded by 12 me; and that this transcript was prepared under my 13 supervision. 14 I further certify that I am not an attorney or 15 counsel of any of the parties, nor a relative or employee 16 of any attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor 17 financially interested in the action. 18 WITNESS my hand and official seal in the City of 19 Fort Lauderdale, County of BROWARD, State of Florida, this 20 25th day of November 1992. 21 ____________________________________________ 22 Brenda Weinerth Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, 23 State of Florida at Large My Commission Expires: October 31, 1992 24 25 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25