1


1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
2
CASE NOS. 92-3038
3 92-3039
92-3040
4
sugarcane GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF )
5 FLORIDA, et. al., )
)
6 Petitioners, )
)
7 vs. )
)
8 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, )
9 )
Respondent. )
10 )
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et. al.,)
11 )
Intervenors )
12

13

14 99 Northeast 4th Street
Miami, Florida
15 March 30, 1994
9:09 a.m. - 12:20 p.m.
16 1:31 p.m. - 4:50 p.m.

17

18

19 Deposition of Doctor William H. Patrick, Jr.

20

21 Taken before Stan Seplin, Certified Shorthand

22 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of

23 Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of Taking

24 Deposition filed in the above cause.

25 - - - - - - -



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

2


1 APPEARANCES:

2

3
ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS:
4
Earl, Blank, Kavanaugh & Stotts, P.A.
5 Two South Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 3636
Miami, Florida 33131
6 BY: Mark Kobelinski, Esq.

7 ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES:

8 United States Department of Justice
Environmental and Natural Resources Division
9 Post Office Box 663
Washington, D.C. 20044-0663
10 BY: Susan H. Ponzoli, AUSA

11 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS:

12 Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, LTD.
100 Southeast 2nd Street, Suite 4000
13 Miami, Florida 33131
BY: Paul L. Nettleton, Esq.
14

15 - - - - - - -

16 I N D E X

17 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS
Dr. W.H. Patrick, Jr. 3 --
18
GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBITS
19 Patrick One - Page 14
Patrick Two - Page 167
20

21

22

23

24

25



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

3


1 Thereupon:

2 Doctor William H. Patrick, Jr.,

3 was called as a witness by the United States, and

4 after being first duly sworn, was examined and

5 testified under oath as follows:

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION

7 BY MS. PONZOLI:

8 Q. Sir, would you please state your name,

9 for the record.

10 A. William H. Patrick, Junior.

11 Q. And would you please give us your

12 business address and phone number.

13 A. My business address-- my university

14 address is the Wetland Biogeochemistry Institute,

15 Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana

16 70803.

17 My private address as a consultant, is

18 888 Dubois, D-u-b-o-i-s, Baton Rouge, 70808.

19 Q. Doctor Patrick, for the record, I'm

20 Susan Ponzoli, and I represent the United States in

21 this DOAH proceeding, and I will be asking you

22 questions.

23 If any question is unclear to you,

24 please indicate and I'll try to rephrase the

25 question better for you, so that we're clear that we



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 are understanding each other.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That will work for you.

4 You have had your deposition taken

5 before, Doctor Patrick?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many times?

8 A. Maybe a dozen.

9 Q. Just briefly, what were those cases?

10 A. I'll recite as many as I can think of at

11 the moment.

12 One was a deposition taken in relation

13 to-- as a consultant to the Justice Department in a

14 404 wetlands litigation in the Western District of

15 Louisiana.

16 Another was a deposition taken as a

17 consultant to the Justice Department in relation to

18 contamination of the Naval Weapons Station at

19 Concord, C-o-n-c-o-r-d, California.

20 Q. If I may interrupt you, Doctor Patrick,

21 when you were consultant to the DOJ in the 404

22 wetlands litigation, what was the year?

23 A. The 404 case was the so-called marsh

24 case, which was the first major wetlands litigation,

25 and that was in approximately 1980.



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 Q. You were the consultant to the United

2 States at that time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the issue in that case was

5 jurisdictional in nature?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And was it-- did it focus on what was a

8 wetland and what wasn't?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in the second, the contamination of

11 the Naval--

12 A. Weapons station.

13 Q. Weapons station, was when?

14 A. That was about three years ago, I think.

15 Q. Was that a toxic pollutant case?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was toxic in that case?

18 A. A number of toxic heavy metals; lead,

19 arsenic, cadmium and ammonium.

20 Q. Please go on. I may ask you questions

21 about each one. If you want to pause between, I just

22 might ask you a question about it.

23 Was there a name to this?

24 I'm sure there was, the Naval Weapons

25 Station.



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 Do you recall?

2 Was it pre-filing of a case, or--

3 A. The suit was against Allied Signal, and

4 I don't recall the name of the case, itself.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. It was the U.S. Navy, of course, the

7 federal installation, but, of course, Justice

8 handled the litigation.

9 Another case, I think-- then I was-- I

10 have given two or more depositions as a consultant

11 to the State of Florida in the phosphate mining

12 litigation in-- on the Peace River in Polk County,

13 Florida, which dealt with an ordinary high water

14 line, encroachment within the ordinary high water

15 line by phosphate mining.

16 Q. Were you testifying on behalf of the

17 State?

18 A. Yes. I gave depositions on behalf of

19 the State.

20 The case was settled without trial.

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Is that the one that

22 David Guest was involved in?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 No, sorry. That was another one.

25 I guess you mentioned David Guest.



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 I was also a consultant to the

2 Attorney-- in both-- all these cases, I was

3 consultant to the Attorney General's Office, either

4 directly or indirectly, but in the case in which I

5 was involved with David Guest, I was a consultant to

6 the Attorney General's Office to the State of

7 Florida, which David Guest handled in the surveyor's

8 rule litigation for determination of ordinary high

9 water line in the State of Florida.

10 BY MS. PONZOLI:

11 Q. That was the Peace River, also?

12 A. No.

13 Q. It wasn't?

14 A. No. It involved all streams.

15 Peace River was one of the streams, but

16 it was a general surveyor's rule that was being

17 proposed.

18 Q. And you gave a deposition in that, also,

19 you believe, or--

20 A. Yes, I gave a deposition, and I

21 testified in the administrative court hearing.

22 Q. So you have testified in DOAH before,

23 the Division of Administrative Hearings?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that the first time you have



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 testified in DOAH before, the--

2 A. Who?

3 Q. The Division of Administrative

4 Hearings.

5 A. In Florida, yes.

6 Q. You want to go on, what you recall?

7 A. While I'm on ordinary water lines, let

8 me go down the line on those.

9 I had testified as a consultant to-- for

10 Leslie Salt Company in San Francisco on an ordinary

11 high water line case involving the State Lands

12 Commission for the State of California, which

13 involved the-- determining the ordinary high water

14 line in South San Francisco Bay from 1850, when

15 California came into the union.

16 Well, in the first case, this was

17 settled before-- I gave a deposition in this, and it

18 was settled for-- right before it went to trial.

19 I have-- I am presently involved in

20 another ordinary high water line case in South San

21 Francisco Bay, a very similar case, which involves

22 another area of land, and the-- in determining

23 ordinary high water line, determining if a certain

24 land area was above ordinary high water line in

25 1850, when the Swamp and Overflow Act came into



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 effect.

2 Q. Do you have a name for that case?

3 A. Yes. It's Smith. Smith is the name of

4 the case.

5 It's California-- maybe State of

6 Florida, or California, rather, Land Commission,

7 versus Smith, I think, and I have given a

8 deposition, and it's scheduled for trial in the next

9 weeks or months.

10 I have completed my study and given a

11 deposition.

12 Q. And your study helps delineate the high

13 water line?

14 A. No. It delineates the high water line.

15 Q. I stand corrected.

16 All right. What else?

17 A. I did a study-- oh, incidently, in all

18 of these cases I have indicated, I did both a study

19 and testified, but in addition, I did a study in

20 Orange County, California, on-- to determine if some

21 existing salt marshes were above ordinary high water

22 line, in-- when California obtained title to this

23 land, the same issue as earlier.

24 This was-- was essentially for the

25 Irvine, I-r-v-i-n-e, Company, although the



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 organization that engaged me was the title insurance

2 company, who had guaranteed the title of this land.

3 I gave a deposition years ago, maybe 15,

4 20 years ago, in federal court in Phoenix, on the

5 effectiveness of a certain soil treatment--

6 Q. Effectiveness of a soil treatment for

7 what purpose?

8 A. To determine the value of this patented

9 method of soil treatment.

10 Q. What was the purpose of the soil

11 treatment?

12 A. It was to improve the structure and

13 productivity of soils.

14 It was an algae-- addition of a certain

15 type of algae that had the capacity to improve the

16 structure, and thereby the rooting characteristics

17 of soils, that would enhance crop production.

18 It was proposed, or supposed to enhance

19 crop production.

20 Q. There was litigation over this?

21 A. Yes.

22 The litigation had to do-- the First

23 Mississippi Corporation had bought this patent, or

24 had bought a company who held this patent, and I am

25 not at this time clear on just what the legal issue



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 was, but it had to do-- my role had to do with the

2 evaluation of the effectiveness of this treatment

3 method.

4 Q. Was it basically a patent case?

5 Do you recall?

6 A. I think-- as I recall, it didn't involve

7 the ownership of the patent. It involved the

8 effectiveness of the treatment system, and-- which

9 involved the value of it in this purchase of the

10 company.

11 Q. All right. Any others?

12 A. Or-- it's-- it's easy to forget

13 depositions.

14 Q. They are not very memorable events.

15 A. There have been others.

16 Q. Do you recall approximately how many

17 others, Doctor Patrick?

18 A. I just recalled another one, recently.

19 Another one was a deposition given in

20 response to a study I did on the extent of wetlands,

21 in a development north of Atlanta, Georgia, in a

22 case that involved the land-- the development, which

23 was Mobil land, and the Environmental Protection

24 Agency.

25 Q. Were you testifying on behalf of Mobil



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 land or the EPA?

2 A. I was testifying on behalf of Mobil

3 land, and I only gave a deposition. The case was

4 settled.

5 Q. There seems to be a pattern here.

6 Have you ever given expert testimony

7 and/or depositions, Doctor Patrick, on the issues

8 which you will be giving expert testimony in this

9 proceeding?

10 A. There are so many issues in this

11 proceeding-- you have noticed that I'm being careful

12 to try to think.

13 The-- I will answer that in this way:

14 Some of the techniques and methods that I have used

15 in this case, are also those that I have used in

16 other litigation.

17 Q. And what are those, specifically?

18 A. Those have to do with certain types of

19 chemical analysis.

20 They have to do with certain types of

21 dating procedures.

22 That is the main-- those are the main

23 points that I can think of at the moment.

24 Q. Which of the chemical procedures have

25 you used in other cases, that you will be using



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 here, or chemical analysis?

2 A. One would be the distribution of

3 chemical components with depth, in wetlands.

4 Another would be the measurement of

5 accretion rates, using Cesium 137 dating in

6 wetlands.

7 Those are the two I can think of. The

8 first is rather general, involving a number of

9 chemical elements, and the second is a specific

10 dating technique.

11 Q. Do you recall any other depositions that

12 you have given at the moment?

13 I understand this is a long period of

14 time. I'm just trying to--

15 A. Yes, and as I say, I have a poor memory

16 for depositions.

17 Many of them, I don't recall with a very

18 great pleasure--

19 Q. This one will be different.

20 A. But as this deposition goes along, if I

21 think of others, I will be sure to mention them.

22 Q. I would appreciate that.

23 I would like to show you your notice of

24 taking deposition. I guess we'll just make it an

25 exhibit.




JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 (The document referred to

2 was thereupon marked as

3 Patrick Exhibit Number

4 One for Identification,

5 a copy of which is attached

6 hereto.)

7 BY MS. PONZOLI:

8 Q. Patrick Number One-- Doctor Patrick, did

9 you read through this and determine with one of your

10 attorneys, that you had produced the documents that

11 were requested in this particular notice?

12 A. Oh, yes.

13 Q. I would like to-- excuse me. Go ahead.

14 A. Can I interject?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Seeing John Lipschultz's name here,

17 reminds me that I also did a study, gave depositions

18 and testified in court on a wetlands case involving

19 Leslie Salt in the Ninth Circuit, I think it's the

20 Ninth Circuit, which--

21 Q. Fifth?

22 A. San Francisco?

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Ninth.

24 THE WITNESS: The Ninth Circuit in San

25 Francisco.



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 BY MS. PONZOLI:

2 Q. You are the Fifth.

3 A. This is Fifth here?

4 Q. We're Eleventh. They split the Fifth in

5 half, and part of it is Alabama, Louisiana, and

6 Florida was split in--

7 A. Fifth is New Orleans?

8 Q. Right.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. So you worked with John in that case?

11 A. No, I worked against him.

12 Q. Oh, I see, and you--

13 A. Leslie Salt.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And the Justice Department attorney was

16 a young woman, whose name I can't think of now,

17 but--

18 Q. Mr. Lipschultz was supposed to do your

19 deposition, but he had a mercury conflict, so--

20 Off the record.

21 (Off the record discussion.)

22 BY MS. PONZOLI:

23 Q. I would like to just walk through it,

24 Doctor Patrick, not that I think something has

25 consciously been held back, but sometimes when a



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 person sits in a deposition, they remember something

2 that they didn't remember before, and are able to

3 obtain it.

4 The resume we were provided, I can show

5 you, and I'll be introducing it later-- in response

6 to number one (indicating).

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: Page three.

8 BY MS. PONZOLI:

9 Q. I'm on page three. I'm sorry.

10 A. You're on page three?

11 Q. Yes. I'm skipping all the introduction.

12 They asked you to produce everything you

13 have attached-- they are all inclusive. Everyone

14 sends the same instructions.

15 And I'm showing you what has been

16 produced to me.

17 Do you have a different or another CV, a

18 recent one, Doctor Patrick?

19 A. This is 2-94.

20 This is the most recent one that I

21 recall compiling (indicating).

22 Q. All right.

23 A. So I don't think I have a more recent

24 one. I don't think I have added to my resume since

25 then.



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q. Is this the standard one that you use,

2 Doctor Patrick, or do you have a different format

3 that you might use, and-- in other purposes?

4 A. No. I use this general one for-- as I

5 recall, for everything that I'm asked to provide.

6 Q. I only ask because the format is

7 somewhat different.

8 A. Oh, yes, that's right.

9 Q. From what I'm accustomed to seeing.

10 I thought maybe you had a different

11 format that you could share with us.

12 A. I use that format.

13 Q. Yes, sir. Number two, a list of the

14 technical and scientific publications, and I believe

15 you did provide us with that list.

16 Isn't that right?

17 A. I-- yes.

18 Q. You certainly got a long list.

19 A. Yes. I provided it.

20 I provided it to the law firm of Earl,

21 et. al.

22 I presume they provided it to you.

23 Q. They did provide it to me, and I

24 actually checked off the publications that were

25 included, but there were additional publications



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 that I would like to very much receive a copy of,

2 and I had thought this letter would go out prior to

3 your deposition, but it didn't, so I'm going to pass

4 it to you now (indicating).

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are these from the list?

6 MS. PONZOLI: They are from the list, and

7 I would like to request that if you can, that you

8 look over that list, maybe on a break or lunch or

9 something, Doctor Patrick, and tell me if it's going

10 to be a problem for you to provide me, after your

11 deposition, copies of these documents (indicating).

12 THE WITNESS: Well, I can answer that

13 now. Anything on my list can be provided, is

14 available.

15 MS. PONZOLI: All right. I would

16 appreciate it.

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Do you want me to take

18 this one?

19 MS. PONZOLI: No. That was the original.

20 I thought that was going out in the last several

21 days.

22 I would appreciate it.

23 THE WITNESS: I will provide it. You

24 sent a letter to my address, requesting those.

25 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll arrange to--



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 production of them.

2 MS. PONZOLI: Okay.

3 THE WITNESS: I find my memory is not so

4 good during a deposition, and-- when I say I will do

5 this and that.

6 BY MS. PONZOLI:

7 Q. We all suffer from that. We might have

8 50 problems, and the problems are crowded out of our

9 mind.

10 Number three, provide the copies which

11 relate-- that were on the list, that relate to the

12 subject matter of your expected testimony.

13 I have a number of documents here, and I

14 guess I have some desire to be relatively thorough

15 about this, Doctor Patrick.

16 Do you want to just look through your

17 list at a later point and make sure, or do you feel

18 confident-- I can show you what's been provided to

19 me, and you can tell me, again, "Those are the only

20 ones that will pertain to my testimony at trial."

21 You want to do it that way? How is best

22 for you?

23 This is the--

24 A. Yes. This is-- it is difficult for me

25 to dogmatically say those are the only ones from



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 which I have obtained any information for my

2 testimony at trial, since I can't anticipate what I

3 will be asked.

4 And those that I provided you are

5 representative, at least, of all of the factors that

6 I can think of that will be involved, but I will

7 admit that there are other publications that relate,

8 either in-- at least in a peripheral way, to the

9 issues here, and I will be pleased to provide you

10 with copies of every published article that you see

11 on that list, because we keep a current file of

12 those.

13 Q. Well, I have to tell you, I find it hard

14 to believe that the ordinary high water line issues

15 are relevant here.

16 You would admit those probably have only

17 the most peripheral relevance, at best, to our

18 opinions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So all 300 of your articles, which I

21 believe is what I have been told you have-- it

22 wouldn't do me any good. It would be an interesting

23 addition to a huge document collection.

24 A. Well--

25 Q. I think I'm trying to narrow it down,



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 Doctor Patrick.

2 A. Well, that-- Ms. Ponzoli, that was my

3 intention in selecting the documents here.

4 Q. Right.

5 A. I didn't want to inundate you with

6 everything just to impress you.

7 Q. I'm impressed.

8 A. Well, once you-- one should accomplish

9 something in 40 years of effort.

10 Q. I think what I would like to ascertain,

11 but-- what we have happen a great deal between the

12 attorneys and then scientists, is little slips, and

13 we understand things differently, so I'm just trying

14 to nail down that the communication that went

15 between you and your attorney for the articles that

16 we had requested, I do, in fact, have those key

17 articles, so I thought I had asked for one of these

18 publication lists, and I guess I would ask you to--

19 do you recall which one you kicked off on the

20 publication list, if I were to give you a

21 publication list?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How are we going to narrow this down?

24 Help me here.

25 I can hand you the pile of documents, or



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 I can hand you the list.

2 A. Well, the only way I know to do it

3 completely, is for me to take the documents that you

4 have been provided, and the list, and check them off

5 and see which once you have, and then you can look

6 at the corrected list and choose other documents

7 that you might want to have.

8 Q. I think that would help.

9 A. But this could also be done with anyone

10 else, since they all have titles and citations.

11 Q. Well, in other words, if you just go

12 through the list, you are confined to indicate from

13 that, and then I can have a paralegal check that we

14 have pulled every one.

15 If I were to ask you to highlight on my

16 list which ones you think are relevant, I can just

17 ask you to-- if you have all of those, and then I

18 can request them.

19 Does that seem to narrow it?

20 A. It would narrow it somewhat, but if I

21 listed every document-- if I indicate every document

22 that had any relationship at all to the issues here

23 of environmental chemistry, it would involve most of

24 those, and so I don't know really how to respond.

25 Q. Well, tell me this--



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1 A. Because I could-- I could miss a

2 document that-- I could leave out a document that

3 one could say, "Well, this contains information on

4 phosphorus, you know, and this might not be relevant

5 to this case," so--

6 Q. I understand, and I understand that

7 that's a difficult thing to do, so I guess what

8 we'll do, I'll ask you to simply confirm that these

9 documents that we've been provided, are the dominant

10 documents.

11 You made a cut last time, and I'll just

12 ask you to make sure that that cut, has, in fact,

13 occurred, and why don't we do that later, if you

14 want to take a little break or something--

15 A. Yes. I'll be pleased to do that.

16 Q. That's not a difficult task.

17 A. I will contend, again, all-- almost

18 regardless of any selection I make, I contend that

19 this omitted documents have some peripheral

20 relationship to this case, so if I were to be on the

21 safe side, I would provide you with a copy of every

22 document in my resume.

23 Q. I understand the point you're making.

24 You made a couple before, and I would

25 like you to make that again.



JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES
150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 All right. Number four, paragraph four,

2 have you provided all of those documents that relate

3 particularly to this topic listed (indicating)?

4 A. Provide all documents, data or-- I

5 provided all the documents, except those that were

6 correspondence with attorneys, in which I was told

7 was protected-- were protected documents.

8 MS. PONZOLI: Is your intent to do a

9 privileged list?

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: Yes.

11 I would also note-- again, I'm not-- I

12 haven't thoroughly gone through what Doctor Patrick

13 has produced, but, for instance, I see a number of

14 things here with regard to, for instance, the data

15 collected in Loxahatchee-- I know that was turned

16 over before, and-- I'm not saying it was not, but if

17 it was not specifically included, that I have been

18 produced a couple of times, and, you know, a-- to

19 the extent that it will become clear in the

20 deposition that Doctor Patrick has reviewed some of

21 Doctor Davis' or some of Curt Richardson's that was

22 produced previously, again.

23 I'm not sure that was again reproduced.

24 He has produced all his own data, and

25 looking at that, I would assume, more than that, but



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150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537

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1 there was no concerted effort to start replacing

2 previously produced documents.

3 MS. PONZOLI: I understand what you're

4 saying, and I'm not going to quarrel with it at an

5 initial level.

6 I want to wait and see what Doctor

7 Patrick says are the documents he's relying upon,

8 but it may be that I will have to have those

9 documents in a discrete package, because-- and I'm

10 not saying this is confined to the League or the

11 Cooperative or anything. I'm sure the complaint can

12 be made to the United States, given the volume of

13 documents, the pace of the deposition, the way

14 documents appear on sort of a daily basis for a

15 single deposition-- it would be difficult for me to

16 have really any rational idea what has been produced

17 of Doctor Richardson's deposition.

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: I understand. I don't

19 think you will find any problem.

20 THE WITNESS: I would like to amend my

21 answer to the earlier question.

22 MR. KOBELINSKI: That's not his current

23 resume.

24 Just kidding.

25 THE WITNESS: To say that there may be a



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1 document or two that has fallen through the cracks.

2 For example, I think I discovered the

3 results of my redox potential studies-- that I did

4 not provide that in this initial group.

5 My excuse for having at least that

6 document, and maybe another couple of documents

7 falling through the cracks that I don't know about,

8 is that I assembled these documents, I think the day

9 before I left for several weeks in Asia, and I may

10 not have given it the care I would have if I had

11 unlimited time, but to the best of my knowledge, I

12 provided all of them.

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: That redox, I believe,

14 was produced for John Davis, but it's handy at the

15 office.

16 It was actually on there, it was Bill

17 Patrick's data, and again, if that's something you

18 feel the need-- that's something released late

19 yesterday on-- that's sort of an exception of what I

20 was talking about.

21 MS. PONZOLI: I would like that. If you

22 can get that bundle sent over here today when we

23 take a break, if you make a phone call and ask that


24 that discrete bundle be sent over--

25 MR. KOBELINSKI: About seven pages.



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1 MS. PONZOLI: That's a very doable task.

2 MR. NETTLETON: Can I get one, too?

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: No.

4 BY MS. PONZOLI:

5 Q. So other than correspondence with the

6 attorneys, which will appear on the privileged list,

7 we're going to nail down what these Davis and

8 Richardson documents entailed, which you reviewed.

9 Do you know what that is? Are you aware

10 of the ones that you reviewed, that were not

11 provided here?

12 A. No. I can't-- I can't immediately think

13 of it, no.

14 Q. To make this simple for you, so that-- I

15 want to do this as cleanly as possible, because

16 we're really down to the wire--

17 I want to go through the areas that

18 you're going to testify on, and I want you to tell

19 me, "In this area I'm going to be giving these three

20 dominant opinions, and these are the pieces of data

21 and the documents I'm relying on for that opinion,"

22 and I'm going to go through area by area, and I want

23 you to tell me the documents-- I'll have you

24 identify the documents for me, and if there are

25 others, we'll very clearly delineate what those are.



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1 Maybe that will help when we get to

2 Davis and Richardson, so when we-- in other words,

3 "Part of my opinion is coming from Doctor

4 Richardson's whatever."

5 Will that do it?

6 A. Yes. I'll do that to the best of my

7 knowledge.

8 Q. There is mention here of mercury data.

9 Did you, in fact, provide mercury data,

10 Doctor Patrick?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Someone told me it's in here, and--

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: She's asking whether or

14 not you produced mercury data.

15 BY MS. PONZOLI:

16 Q. You did produce mercury data in your

17 documents?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you relying on mercury data for any

20 of your testimony?

21 A. No. At least I was-- it's my

22 understanding I would not be asked to testify in

23 relation to mercury data.

24 Q. You have, in fact, done mercury work,

25 though, in the Everglades area in the past; have you



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1 not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was that it, Doctor Patrick?

4 A. There were studies.

5 The first was done to determine the

6 amount of mercury emitted into the atmosphere, as a

7 result of sugar cane burning before harvest.

8 Q. When was that done, the years?

9 A. About three years ago.

10 Q. And how long a study was that?

11 A. It lasted through a harvest season, the

12 fall and spring.

13 Q. And on whose behalf did you do that

14 study?

15 A. For the Sugar Cane League.

16 Q. Do you remember the cost of that study?

17 A. No, I don't remember the exact cost.

18 I--

19 Q. I have a chart-- did you work in

20 conjunction with WBN on that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you aware-- has WBN done similar

23 type work in the EAA?

24 A. They have done an evaluation of

25 mercury.



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1 To my knowledge, they haven't done any

2 experimental work. There was an assessment of

3 existing data, as I recall, but I do know about

4 their study, yes.

5 Q. I have a document, and am presently not

6 introducing it (indicating). It's Mercury Emissions

7 to the Atmosphere, listed by WBN, prepared by the

8 Florida Department of Environmental Regulation.

9 There's a chart in here that's called

10 Estimation of Mercury Emissions by County, from the

11 Florida Sugar Industry in 1990.

12 I have been told by other sources, this

13 might reflect your data.

14 Do you have any knowledge if that is the

15 data from your work or not (indicating)?

16 A. It-- the levels seem to be similar to

17 what I found experimentally, so it very likely could

18 be-- could reflect the results of my study.

19 The results of my study were in the

20 public domain. They were presented at a mercury

21 convention, and are being published.

22 Q. Are they listed in your paper?

23 A. No. They haven't been published.

24 Q. Is there a draft of your report?

25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. Could I obtain a copy of that?

2 A. If you write me and request that.

3 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Kobelinski, may I ask

4 that be added to my list, without another letter?

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Yes. As Doctor Patrick

6 has stated, he's not going to be offering direct

7 testimony on mercury, and will not be relying upon

8 any data that he's collected.

9 I'll be honest. I don't know if we're

10 claiming any privilege, per se, because he's not

11 relying on it.

12 Given-- this is something that is

13 already in the public domain, but-- just to

14 summarize what has just occurred here, but-- there's

15 no problem, but--

16 MS. PONZOLI: I understand what's being

17 said in between the lines of what you're saying,

18 that if mercury testimony is offered by others,

19 you're not relinquishing your right to put him on in

20 rebuttal or--

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: Even in that situation,

22 I would not be relying on his data.

23 You're correct. He always may be asked

24 to look at what is presented by others, but at this

25 point in time, I would just reiterate, he's not




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1 going to rely on his data, just be looking at it

2 from--

3 MS. PONZOLI: I understand.

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: This is specifically--

5 are you looking for-- I believe you said there was a

6 report that is already in the public domain, or

7 looking for a draft of what is going to be

8 published?

9 MS. PONZOLI: I would like both.

10 I assume it's-- similar thing, one is

11 just for a scientific publication, and--

12 THE WITNESS: No. It's the same

13 document.

14 MS. PONZOLI: Very same?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was presented at

16 the governor's conference several years ago on--

17 BY MS. PONZOLI:

18 Q. What were the results of that?

19 A. Well, it briefly showed that sugar cane

20 burning produces a very, very small amount of

21 mercury going into the atmosphere, since the sugar

22 cane plant does not absorb mercury from the soil.

23 And all of the mercury that is produced

24 by burning the plant, is that-- is absorbed from--

25 by the plant from the atmosphere, which is a very



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1 small amount.

2 Q. So in other words, your study showed

3 that the plant only absorbs atmospheric mercury, and

4 only when it's burned, gives back into the

5 atmosphere, that mercury?

6 A. Essentially, yes.

7 Q. Did you--

8 A. There is a small amount of mercury in

9 the soil.

10 It is splashed against the lower part of

11 the plant, by rainfall, and when the plant is

12 ignited, this mercury-- is emitted into the

13 atmosphere, and this is an extremely small amount in

14 relation to the ordinary atmospheric fallout of

15 mercury.

16 Q. Did you do testing of the soil and water

17 as part of your study?

18 A. I have tested the soil.

19 Q. And what were the results of the soil

20 test?

21 A. The Everglades-- the soils in the

22 Everglades agricultural areas, the random sites that

23 I selected, which, as I recall, were 17, showed

24 normal total mercury contents, and most of this was

25 associated with the organic matter in these muck



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1 soils.

2 Q. When you say normal, can you give me

3 numbers that would indicate to a scientist-- I'm a

4 layman. They wouldn't be normal to me. I have no

5 idea.

6 A. The values were similar to that in

7 natural areas, wetland organic areas in the upper

8 Midwest and in Sweden, and as I recall, it was about

9 .2 parts per million total mercury.

10 Q. Have you done any testing in background

11 areas of the water conservation areas, to see if

12 there are similar levels to those areas?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was that part of this same study?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did it show a comparable amount of total

17 mercury?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. About the .2 parts per million?

20 A. Somewhere in that range, yes.

21 Q. When did you test in the water

22 conservation areas for mercury?

23 A. Well, during the last year or so.

24 Q. Has this been in conjunction with Doctor

25 Richardson?



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1 A. No.

2 Q. Is this a second study on mercury?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let me finish with the first study,

5 then, before we move on to the second one.

6 Are all of your data, or at least

7 summaries of your data, reflected in this report

8 that we'll been getting?

9 A. Yes.

10 All of the data that I did for the--

11 Q. The first data?

12 A. Yes, the Sugar Cane League--

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. In addition to the study that I did for

15 the League and reported and are publishing, I also

16 had a post-doctoral scientist from-- who was

17 interested in mercury fractionation, and we did some

18 fractionation studies that was not related to this

19 particular project, but we did this on the same

20 samples, since we had those samples available.

21 Q. And what did those show?

22 A. They showed that most of the mercury in

23 the Everglades agricultural area was as I expected,

24 associated with the organic fraction of the soil.

25 Q. All right.



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1 A. Since mercury interacts with organic

2 matter greatly.

3 Q. All right. Is there a published study

4 from that post-doctoral work?

5 A. No.

6 Q. There's a report?

7 A. No. It's in-- well, it's in manuscript

8 form.

9 Q. Is he using that as-- is he-- would it

10 be a problem for him to provide that to us?

11 A. How do you know it's a man?

12 Q. A woman-- I don't care.

13 A. It's a woman, and the documents are in

14 my possession, but I haven't done anything with

15 them.

16 Q. Would that be a problem to provide us

17 with a copy again?

18 A. No.

19 It's-- it's not anything that I have

20 relied on, but I'll be glad to provide that.

21 Q. I appreciate it.

22 A. I will again need a written request for

23 that.

24 Q. I understand. The-- Mr. Kobelinski is

25 being very helpful here.



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1 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will-- again, I'll

2 review this.

3 It does not appear that this would

4 just-- it does not appear that is something that

5 would be privileged.

6 Maybe I shouldn't be saying it on the

7 record-- it's something that he just said he's not

8 relying on.

9 The manuscript related to fractionation

10 of mercury?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes.

12 MS. PONZOLI: I want to tell you, just

13 because something is a document which he isn't

14 relying upon, it doesn't automatically fall into a

15 privileged category.

16 We can defer on that, but I don't want

17 the record to reflect that we agree on that legal

18 conclusion, because I don't.

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay.

20 MS. PONZOLI: Without getting on to that

21 whatever--

22 MR. NETTLETON: It would certainly cut

23 down on discovery to us.

24 BY MS. PONZOLI:

25 Q. Let's move into your second mercury



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1 study, which I also understand was not produced,

2 or--

3 A. I did not produce it.

4 Q. I would like to know about your second

5 mercury study.

6 A. The second mercury study was carried out

7 in water conservation area 2-A and three, and

8 consisted of analyzing mercury with depth in a

9 number of undisturbed cores taken at various

10 locations in the-- in these water conservation

11 areas.

12 Q. On whose behalf did you do this?

13 A. I did this, presumably for the Florida

14 Sugar Cane League.

15 I-- at the request-- either at the

16 request of the law firm of Earl, et. al., or at the

17 request of the environmental committee of the--

18 Doctor Rosendahl-- is that right, Rosendahl?

19 Q. Is that the EPD environmental committee?

20 A. I--

21 Q. Is it the Everglades Protection

22 District?

23 A. No.

24 It was a group that was in-- that met a

25 time or two.



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1 I attended it a time or two to discuss

2 these problems, but the authorization for this, I

3 know came from either Mr. Stotts and Mr. Earl, from

4 the law firm, or-- probably in consultation with the

5 League.

6 Q. All right. Let me ask you who else was

7 on the environmental group, other than Doctor

8 Rosendahl.

9 A. Let's see. I think Doctor-- maybe

10 Doctor Dunkelman, and maybe Mr. Andreis, because we

11 met at the time-- well, we met once at West Palm,

12 once at their office, and once at-- in Clewiston, as

13 I recall.

14 Q. Is it Mr. Andreis-- does his name appear

15 on some of your documents?

16 A. Andreis, A-n-d-r-e-i-s--

17 Q. Yes, sir. I think his name must have

18 been--

19 A. He was coauthor of a study that I did on

20 the use of lime rock to remove phosphorus.

21 Q. Anyone else that was part of this

22 environmental group?

23 A. I can't recall any.

24 Q. What was the purpose of this

25 environmental group?



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1 A. I'm not sure I know, because it was a

2 group, organized and headed by Doctor Rosendahl,

3 for-- was an employee of the League, but I do know

4 that it-- the meetings that I went to dealt with

5 just these environmental issues of the Everglades

6 agricultural areas.

7 Q. Were they focused on problems that you

8 wanted to investigate, as to whether they were or

9 whether they were not a problem?

10 A. That's probably a good assessment from

11 my point of view.

12 My only interest was from that point of

13 view, that this was a problem that I felt like would

14 be amenable to scientific investigation.

15 Q. And the one that you participated on,

16 was mercury?

17 A. That's the only thing I recall coming

18 out of this meeting, that I think I recommended that

19 perhaps a study of the mercury levels in the water

20 conservation areas would be appropriate.

21 Q. What were the concerns at that time

22 regarding mercury?

23 Have I nailed down the time when this

24 took place? I'm not sure I have.

25 A. Probably maybe three years ago, two



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1 years ago.

2 Q. Two to three years ago?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. To the best of your recollection,

5 you--

6 A. Well, at that-- okay. To answer your

7 question, as I recall, at that time there was quite

8 a bit of concern that the high mercury in fish in

9 the Everglades, might be related to sugar cane

10 burning, or the export of mercury from the EAA.

11 And I felt like-- it appeared to me that

12 this was something that needed to be examined.

13 Q. All right. Did Doctor Dunkelman or Mr.

14 Andreis, have any-- or Doctor Rosendahl, have any

15 contributions as to what should be done regarding an

16 investigation of the mercury issue?

17 A. The only thing I can recall, is I

18 enlisted Doctor Dunkelman, who is an agricultural

19 scientist, who helped me with finding representative

20 areas in the Everglades agricultural area, to sample

21 for the sugar cane burning experiment.

22 Q. Well, let me ask you-- you said you did

23 two studies, the sugar cane burning study and the

24 sampling within the water conservation areas.

25 Were they discrete and separate studies?



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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you did the sugar cane burning

3 study, that was only a sort of air deposition type

4 study?

5 Is that accurate or--

6 A. Air emission.

7 Q. I'm sorry. Air emission?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. At the time you did it-- at that point,

10 you did not have in your mind, you would be going

11 into the water conservation areas and sampling

12 soils, and so forth?

13 A. I think that's correct.

14 Q. We have already finished the sugar cane

15 burning study, which your conclusion was, which you

16 presented to me a little while ago, a very small

17 emission from the sugar cane burning?

18 A. Yes, in relation to that from other

19 atmospheric sources.

20 Q. But now the mercury issue is

21 continuing-- what is the time between these two

22 studies?

23 You finished the sugar cane burning one.

24 You come to the conclusion, sugar cane burning is a

25 small contribution, and I'm not going to fight with



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1 you what small means, because I wouldn't understand

2 it at this point.

3 There's a gap in time, before you begin

4 the second?

5 A. Yes. I think the sampling for the

6 second study began, either late or in the year that

7 I finished the first study, or perhaps even the next

8 year.

9 Q. Let me ask you this: You're saying

10 Doctor Dunkelman was helping you find places in the

11 EAA, to look for-- for sugar cane burning?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Isn't this second meeting occurring

14 after that gap in time?

15 A. I'm sorry?

16 Q. This environmental meeting, didn't this

17 occur and you finished your study?

18 A. I don't think so.

19 This committee-- this committee didn't

20 function very long, and I think the meetings of this

21 committee that I attended, were during the time that

22 I was doing the study on the sugar cane burning, as

23 I recall.

24 Q. Did the meeting precede the sugar cane

25 burning study, the first one?



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1 A. I can't be sure about that.

2 I think that probably the first one did,

3 and perhaps the second one took place during the

4 time I was doing the study.

5 Q. In regard to the study, did any one of

6 these gentlemen, help you in choosing sites within

7 the water conservation areas?

8 A. No.

9 You mean the second study?

10 Q. Yes, sir.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did anyone assist you in your second

13 study of the water conservation areas?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who would that have been?

16 A. Doctor John Davis.

17 Q. Anyone else?

18 A. No.

19 Q. I'm not sure I ever knew what the cost

20 of the first study was.

21 Do you recall what that cost was, Doctor

22 Patrick?

23 A. You asked me once, and I told you I

24 didn't recall.

25 Q. I'm sorry. I apologize.



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1 The cost of the second study.

2 A. I can't-- excuse me. I can't answer

3 that specifically, because my billing was not

4 necessarily broken down completely on the basis of

5 the mercury work and the other work.

6 But it is often reflected in my billing

7 to the law firm, so personally, I have no concern

8 how you-- you can obtain any of that information you

9 want from them.

10 Q. Well, they sort of refused to produce

11 it, so--

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would just, to

13 respond, so we don't get in a fight-- as I

14 understand it, Doctor Kadlic and others had the same

15 problem.

16 We all agree with consistency-- if

17 there's a consistent position reached, we'll agree

18 with it.

19 BY MS. PONZOLI:

20 Q. How long have you been employed by the--

21 are you still under the Florida Sugar Cane League or

22 employed by the law firm, Doctor Patrick?

23 A. That's a good question.

24 In my view, I'm employed by the Florida

25 Sugar Cane League, as represented by the law firm.



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1 Q. But your bills go to the law firm, and

2 your checks come from the law firm?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. How long has this relationship existed?

5 A. At about the time of the Key Largo

6 symposium, and slightly before then, because I--

7 absolutely before then, and I think that was in

8 1989, but that is to be determined.

9 Q. It is what comes to my mind, the Key

10 Largo symposium.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Since '89, how much have you been paid

13 by the sugar industry and/or the law firm, whomever

14 is your employer, for these various efforts that

15 you've carried out on their behalf?

16 A. I can't answer that at this time.

17 I mean, I have documents that will

18 provide that information.

19 Q. Well, assuming they will not give me the

20 documents, can you give me an idea-- has it been a

21 hundred thousand a year, roughly speaking, or

22 150,000 a year, roughly speaking, or-- I mean, the

23 figures in this case are large, so you're not going

24 to shock anyone at this table.

25 A. Right. Actually, I will probably shock



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1 you at the modesty of your billing.

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: I was going to say, you

3 might want to take me out to dinner.

4 MS. PONZOLI: Some of us work for very

5 modest salaries, so we don't shock that way,

6 either.

7 THE WITNESS: I would say my billings in

8 this case, have probably amounted to an average of

9 60,000 a year for these last three years.

10 BY MS. PONZOLI:

11 Q. So-- and we're-- so for '93, '92, '91,

12 and maybe '94, it's been in that ballpark?

13 A. Yes. That's what I recall, yes.

14 Q. And before that, maybe slightly less or

15 slightly more?

16 A. Before when?

17 Q. '89 and '90.

18 A. Oh, '89, much less, and '90, probably

19 less.

20 Q. But somewhere in that ballpark?

21 A. Yes. Maybe $30,000.

22 Q. Is that the sum total of what comes to

23 you?

24 If you use a graduate student to help

25 you, do you get additional money, or is that, like,



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1 everything, and you take that money--

2 A. That's everything. That's my total

3 billing.

4 Q. Okay. You share it with whomever you

5 have to share it with?

6 A. Yes. That's my total billing and my

7 expenses.

8 Q. Let's go to what-- it's not possible to

9 break out what this mercury study cost, but--

10 A. It's possible, but I just don't have

11 that data in hand.

12 Q. Tell me how long the study lasted.

13 A. Which mercury study?

14 Q. I want to talk about the second mercury

15 study now, in the water conservation areas.

16 A. It lasted several months.

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.

18 (Off the record discussion.)

19 BY MS. PONZOLI:

20 Q. I would like to go back to the second

21 mercury study, Doctor Patrick, in the water

22 conservation areas.

23 You say it lasted several months, and

24 can you give me the exact year in which it took

25 place?



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1 A. I would-- my estimate was, it took place

2 in 1992, year before last, as I recall.

3 Q. Okay. What was your-- did you have a

4 hypothesis for that study?

5 A. No. I did not, no.

6 Q. What were you attempting to do, then?

7 A. I wanted to determine the mercury levels

8 with depth, in representative areas of the water

9 conservation areas, of water conservation area two

10 and three.

11 Q. And what did you think that was going to

12 tell you?

13 A. It would give me some indication if

14 mercury levels were elevated over other areas, or if

15 they were normal, and what the depth, distribution

16 of mercury might be.

17 Q. Before I ask you specifically what you

18 found out, did you find what you went looking for?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Let me ask you this, before we go into

21 those specific findings: Why didn't you do this same

22 work within the EAA?

23 A. I have done this within the EAA on the

24 17 locations that I mentioned to you, except I did

25 not do a depth distribution, but I did determine the



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1 mercury content of the root zone of the soil.

2 Q. Why did you think it was not necessary

3 to do a depth distribution-- that it was not

4 necessary? Why did you think it was not necessary?

5 A. Because the only way that mercury could

6 get from the soil into plants and into the

7 atmosphere, would be from the root zone or the plow

8 layer, and I felt this was a significant zone to

9 deal with.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. This was not a depositional area. This

12 was an area in which decomposition had taken place.

13 Q. I don't understand what you just said.

14 You said it was not a deposition area?

15 A. No. The EAA is an area that's been

16 drained, and the soils are decomposing, whereas in

17 the water conservation area, natural vegetation is

18 still causing sediment and other soil to be accreted

19 at the surface, and incoming mercury could be

20 trapped in that accreted sediment.

21 Q. Then is it fair to say that your study--

22 your first study on the aero mixing, did not really

23 determine mercury export through water into the

24 water conservation areas?

25 A. Yes. It was not designed to determine



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1 that.

2 Q. Do you know the study that has

3 determined mercury export through water into the

4 water conservation areas?

5 A. No.

6 This was one of the purposes of my

7 second study, was to do-- in the sense that it might

8 have given some indication of input of mercury from

9 all sources, into these accreting soils, organic

10 soils.

11 Q. Did it indicate that there is mercury

12 export through water into the water conservation

13 areas?

14 A. I can't-- I can't say that it did.

15 All I can say is that there was a slight

16 increase, slightly higher mercury in the surface

17 layers of the organic soils in the Everglades, as

18 compared to deeper zones, but the-- the source of

19 this could not be ascertained.

20 These-- because this increase also

21 occurs in pristine organic soil areas all over the

22 Northern Hemisphere, as a result of increased

23 mercury fallout following, industrialization in the

24 last century.

25 Q. Is it your opinion as you sit here



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1 today, it is unknown whether it is air deposition or

2 water, that is causing this slight increase in the

3 surface layers of soil in the Everglades?

4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll object, to the

5 extent you're attempting to draw an expert opinion

6 for use at trial.

7 You are, just up to this point, asking

8 him to explain to you the data that he collected,

9 and perhaps to a certain extent, explain a study

10 that's been published, as a result.

11 I'm going-- I won't instruct the witness

12 not to respond, but I'm just objecting.

13 MS. PONZOLI: You can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: The depth distribution of

15 mercury in the Everglades, in my opinion, is

16 consistent with the depth distribution in areas that

17 have not been subject to water inflows.

18 BY MS. PONZOLI:

19 Q. So that you mean that you believe that

20 this air deposition may be causing the slight

21 increase in the top layers of the soil?

22 A. Well, I made no final conclusion in

23 regard to the interpretation of these mercury

24 analysis in the water conservation areas.

25 Q. Has anyone asked you to begin putting



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1 that together?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What is your best hypothesis, as you sit

4 here today, for that slight increase in the surface

5 layers of the--

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'll just have a

7 standing objection.

8 MS. PONZOLI: I understand.

9 THE WITNESS: That is consistent with

10 increase in atmospheric deposition of mercury, as I

11 indicated a moment ago.

12 BY MS. PONZOLI:

13 Q. All right. How many sites did you

14 select in the water conservation areas 2-A and

15 three?

16 A. For what analysis?

17 Q. For the second mercury study.

18 Did you select different sites for

19 different purposes?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I don't recall exactly, although that

23 figure is easily obtainable, but I would say 15.

24 Q. I guess I would say-- is this

25 information within your attorney's-- the results of



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1 this study-- they were in the possession of your

2 attorneys, Doctor Patrick?

3 A. Yes, they-- yes.

4 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Kobelinski, would you

5 have a problem providing those?

6 This would go much faster and easier, if

7 I had the documents in front of me, and move rapidly

8 through what he did and how you did it, instead of

9 having to dream up every way of dragging it out of

10 him.

11 THE WITNESS: I would hope that this

12 information is not being dragged out of me.

13 MS. PONZOLI: If I were cleverer, I could

14 do it easily. Since I'm not, I have to do it in a

15 difficult way.

16 THE WITNESS: It is being willingly

17 provided.

18 MS. PONZOLI: I'll agree.

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: You know our position as

20 far as the fact that he's not testifying with regard

21 to this data that he's collected.

22 I'll tell you what-- that is not an area

23 that I am involved in. You understand the

24 difficulty that arises, and I think that happens on

25 your side, also.



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1 I'll tell you, I'll respond to you in

2 the morning, because it's an area that I'm not

3 involved in. I don't want to say I'm going to turn

4 it over or not.

5 I will see maybe I can get a response

6 later on this afternoon, and--

7 MS. PONZOLI: If you can this afternoon,

8 I would appreciate it, because I think it would be

9 cleaner and a lot easier, if I had it in front of

10 me.

11 Let me just tell you for purposes of

12 sort of crystallizing the issues-- I don't believe

13 that you appropriately should hold it back from us,

14 but if you're going to hold it back from us, then I

15 believe it would only be appropriate that the League

16 would have to stipulate that it would never use any

17 testimony from Doctor Patrick related to this study

18 and work at trial, in rebuttal or any other form,

19 and I suspect very seriously, you would not want to

20 bind yourself in that way, so therefore, I think

21 it's only appropriate that it be presented and

22 talked about, and then we can go.

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: As I have stated before,

24 and again, I'll get back to you-- my understanding

25 is that he will not be relying upon it.



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1 I will review it, get back with you this

2 afternoon. If, in fact, some of the other people are

3 in depositions, I will get back to you tomorrow

4 morning.

5 MS. PONZOLI: I appreciate it.

6 BY MS. PONZOLI:

7 Q. I'm going to go ahead and do it, and I

8 think I'm doing it rather clumsily, but I'm trying

9 to understand what you are doing.

10 You said there were approximately 15

11 sites.

12 How did you choose these 15 sites?

13 A. I chose those in consultation, as I

14 indicated earlier, with Doctor Davis, who is very

15 knowledgeable about the patterns of water flow and

16 the history of the water conservation areas.

17 One point I wanted to-- I wanted to make

18 sure, though, that I took samples, as I recall,

19 along the transect south of 10-C, and as I recall, I

20 think I did mercury analysis on those.

21 I'm not being intentionally vague on the

22 location and the results of the mercury analysis,

23 since I was told I would not be asked to give

24 testimony on mercury at this time, so I haven't

25 reviewed this in some months, but-- so I'm answering



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1 these questions to the best of my ability.

2 I think I did mercury analysis on this

3 transect south of 10-C, and then in various places

4 in water conservation area two-- rather three, and

5 also, there-- I tried to select sites where there

6 was little or no history of water inflow from the

7 EAA, and I think this would have been in the-- one

8 of these may have been in the Rotenberger tract, and

9 another in the-- another in this Cypress area.

10 Q. Big Cypress?

11 A. Yes, although that is a misnomer.

12 Q. All right. Any other places?

13 A. No. Those are the-- the area 2-A, area

14 three, and these other sites.

15 Q. All right. As you went down the

16 transect in 2-A, did you find a gradient of mercury

17 as you went down the transect?

18 A. No. I don't-- I don't recall there was

19 any gradient of mercury.

20 The sediment and material accreted, that

21 had been accreted along this transect, as I recall,

22 was consistent with the fallout of mercury from

23 atmospheric-- general atmospheric sources, and with

24 the expected mercury content of the material coming

25 in, which would have been about that, the vegetation



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1 and soils of the area.

2 That's my recollection at this time.

3 Q. Okay. You say it was consistent with

4 the fallout of mercury from general atmospheric

5 sources, and so what did you use as your base line

6 for that consistency?

7 A. Studies in the Upper Great Lakes, have

8 shown that in preindustrial times, mercury fallout

9 was something like five to ten micrograms per meter

10 squared, per year.

11 In post-industrial times, this has

12 increased to 15 to 20 micrograms per meter squared.

13 Q. Did you find it consistent along the

14 transect, that to the same depth and same degree,

15 you would find mercury?

16 I want to make sure my gradient

17 concept-- we're thinking-- it was the same? You got

18 the same amount of mercury close to the structure,

19 as found at the end of the structure, and to the

20 same depth?

21 A. The same general concentration of

22 mercury, yes, as I recall.

23 Q. And it was in the same range at the--

24 what was it-- .2 micrograms per liter you found in

25 the EAA?



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1 A. I can't-- I can't relate it completely

2 to the EAA, because the EAA was much less organic

3 than the water conservation areas.

4 And I-- I think I recorded it in parts

5 per million or parts per billion.

6 I can't really answer that just right

7 now, accurately, but it was probably on a weight

8 basis.

9 It was probably on-- somewhere in the

10 same range, yes.

11 I want to hedge on that, because I

12 haven't really reviewed on that.

13 Q. Is that reflected in your report?

14 A. I have no report.

15 I just have the data.

16 Q. The actual data, itself?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So what--

19 A. Yes, it would be reflected, yes, in the

20 analysis of the-- in the profiles of mercury

21 analysis.

22 Q. Did you find the same levels in the

23 profiles of mercury in 2-A, along the 10-C transect,

24 as you found in the Rotenberger and Big Cypress?

25 A. No.



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1 Actually, the-- as I recall, Big Cypress

2 was lower than any of the others.

3 Q. How about the same--

4 A. I think, but I'm not sure.

5 That may have been phosphorus that I was

6 thinking about in the Big Cypress. I know the

7 phosphorus was much lower.

8 I can't even guarantee that I did

9 mercury in the Big Cypress. I think-- it would be

10 so much easier if we had the data at hand.

11 Q. I do agree.

12 A. Since I was not-- since I was not

13 prepared to give a deposition on this material.

14 Q. I have to tell you, I didn't think I was

15 going to be questioning you on this, either.

16 I thought you had done a little sugar

17 cane testing, and that was it.

18 I didn't realize you had been out there

19 doing soil cores on mercury.

20 Was the profile the same along the 10-C

21 transect, as you found in the Rotenberger tract?

22 A. It's difficult to say, but I'll-- I'll

23 answer it in a general way.

24 I saw nothing in my analysis that would

25 indicate a significant influx of mercury in the



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1 drainage water from the Everglades agricultural

2 area, and maybe that will--

3 Q. Shorten this torture.

4 A. Yes.

5 It's not torture. I'm enjoying this.

6 Q. So in a very crude layman's sense, it

7 would be your opinion that any mercury problem that

8 we're finding within the water conservation areas,

9 is not as a result of mercury actually being carried

10 out of the EAA, in the water into the conservation

11 areas?

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same standing objection,

13 with regard to his opinions along this line.

14 THE WITNESS: That is very difficult to

15 answer, because in my opinion, mercury intake in the

16 fish is not related to the total amount of mercury

17 in the system.

18 It's related to microbial and

19 biogeochemical processes that mobilize mercury, as

20 methyl mercury, and put it into the food chain, and

21 this can happen almost without regard to the total

22 mercury content of a substrate.

23 Can we go off the record a second?

24 MS. PONZOLI: Yes, sir.

25 (Thereupon a recess was taken



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1 in the deposition, after which

2 the deposition continued as follows:)

3 BY MS. PONZOLI:

4 Q. You had looked at the water flows as one

5 of your criteria for choosing your sites, Doctor

6 Patrick.

7 Why was that?

8 A. Well, I-- there seemed to be a lot of

9 interest in water conservation area 2-A, which was--

10 which received water from-- through the ten

11 structures, and other work that had shown that there

12 had been some accumulation of peat and phosphorus in

13 that level, and I thought it would be appropriate to

14 see what was the accumulation of mercury in that--

15 in those profiles, as well.

16 Q. Is it accurate that you weren't looking

17 so much to see mercury carried in the water, perhaps

18 from the EAA into 2-A, so much as you were looking

19 to see the peat accretion and the phosphorus levels

20 and what relationship that might have to mercury?

21 A. Well, yes. Actually, as I told you, I

22 had no particular hypothesis, except to determine

23 the general levels of mercury in the soils-- the

24 organic soils in water conservation two, or 2-A,

25 really, and three, and a few other samples, like,



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1 Big Cypress, and as I recall, Rotenberger, and I

2 also was-- will say that the location on mercury--

3 of mercury samples are subject to correction later

4 on, since I didn't really-- haven't reviewed just

5 where I took those samples in some months.

6 I did those-- did these analyses, and

7 really haven't done much with them since then, see,

8 and-- but I was not looking for-- to get any

9 particular idea of input from any particular source.

10 First step in this, was just to assess

11 the mercury content with depth in a number of

12 profiles in these areas.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. And my interpretation, as it related--

15 hasn't really gone beyond that.

16 Because I have been concentrating on

17 other aspects of this case since phosphorus seemed

18 to be of more immediate concern than mercury.

19 Q. In your opinion, Doctor Patrick, is

20 there a relationship between phosphorus levels and

21 mercury methylization?

22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just for the sake of

23 argument, since we took a break, I do have an

24 objection as to drawing opinions, as previously

25 stated, as to Doctor Patrick's opinions regarding



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1 mercury.

2 I'm not instructing the witness not to

3 respond, but I'm reserving any objection to this

4 line of questioning.

5 That will be a standing objection.

6 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the last

7 part of your question. I couldn't see your face

8 when you were finishing that.

9 BY MS. PONZOLI:

10 Q. I was asking you if there was a

11 relationship, in your opinion, between phosphorus

12 levels and mercury methylization.

13 A. No. There's no necessary relationship.

14 Q. So I can go and retrieve for you the

15 language which I'm sure you're fairly-- have you

16 followed any of the mercury debate in the

17 Everglades, Doctor Patrick?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you have any opinions on that debate,

20 or hypothesis on that debate?

21 A. Well, maybe my perception of the debate,

22 may be different than yours.

23 If you describe the point in the debate,

24 I would be glad to--

25 Q. Rather than do it that way, because I



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1 think the crudeness of some of my questions, it

2 makes it difficult sometimes to answer appropriately

3 so I can retrieve language and present that to you

4 tomorrow, but I'm asking you, as we sit here right

5 now, since you're the scientist and I'm the layman,

6 do you have opinions as to the mercury problems in

7 the Everglades, and if you do, what are they?

8 A. Yes. I have opinions.

9 Q. Okay. Would you please give those to

10 me.

11 A. The mercury problem in the Everglades

12 is, as in--

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'm sorry. Let me

14 just--

15 MS. PONZOLI: You have a continuing

16 objection. You don't need to continue to make it.

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: I understand that.

18 Just so I understand, you're asking him

19 as a scientist, does he have any opinions, as

20 opposed to, do you have any expert opinions on this

21 matter for trial?

22 MS. PONZOLI: That's right.

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: I just wanted to make

24 sure the record is clear.

25 I apologize for the interruption.



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1 THE WITNESS: I consider myself rather

2 knowledgeable about the mercury biogeochemistry in

3 the environment, and I review data and attend

4 meetings in different parts of the world, so I do

5 have some opinions.

6 The mercury problem I presume that

7 you're referring to, is the accumulation of mercury

8 in fish and other top predators in an ecosystem, and

9 as I stated in two or three presentations-- invited

10 presentations on mercury in Florida, and as others--

11 I won't say everyone, but almost everyone else

12 agrees, mercury moves into the food chain as methyl

13 mercury, which is a microbial process, and two or

14 three things are necessary for this to happen.

15 The substrate where methyl mercury is

16 formed, must be very anaerobic, so that methylation

17 of mercury will occur, and there also-- apparently,

18 the water column must be low enough in dissolved

19 organics, so that the mercury is not absorbed by the

20 dissolved and suspended organic matters, because

21 mercury, methyl mercury, has a high affinity for

22 organic matter, and this is why some of the highest

23 levels of mercury in fish, occur in very low

24 nutrients or oligotrophic systems, and so that is

25 the-- that's my general impression of the mercury



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1 problem.

2 Also, I might add, since you are sort of

3 asking an open-ended question, research has shown

4 that the mercury that gets into the fish, is not the

5 methylmercury in the sediment, but it is the

6 methylmercury in the water column.

7 Studies at Oak Ridge by Turner, have

8 shown these conclusively, so that essentially is my

9 assessment of the way the mercury problem develops.

10 MS. PONZOLI: Mark that page for me,

11 please.

12 BY MS. PONZOLI:

13 Q. Thank you, Doctor Patrick. I think

14 that's very helpful and I'll reread it and think

15 about it.

16 Do you have an opinion as to why we are

17 seeing the elevated levels of mercury in the fish

18 and the top predators in the Everglades?

19 You have explained the process to me,

20 but you haven't explained to me what is going-- what

21 is causing this process.

22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection.

23 THE WITNESS: It's my belief that in

24 organic areas, as the Everglades is, that

25 methylmercury information and mobilization, is more



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1 likely than in mineral areas, where the mercury is

2 more highly interactive-- interacts more tightly or

3 bonds more tightly to the mineral sediments, and I

4 believe that in all such areas, that the top

5 predators have higher mercury content than in more

6 mineralized areas, and I also think that this is a

7 condition that has always existed in these systems.

8 About 25 years ago, there was a big

9 mercury scare in some water bodies, and in marine--

10 long-lived marine fish, such as swordfish, and it

11 was discovered that preserved samples that were

12 approximately taken a hundred years ago, also add

13 high mercury, so I think the increase that we're

14 seeing in mercury, is due, in part, to our better

15 understanding of this problem, and I would also

16 mention that throughout, in many other areas of the

17 U.S. and in Europe, they are finding that top

18 predators in both fish and animals, have high

19 burdens of mercury, so it's a rather widespread

20 problem.

21 During the-- by being here at this

22 deposition today, I'm missing a conference on

23 mercury, contamination on fish and biota in

24 Louisiana and Arkansas, also is discovering that

25 they have the same problem, and none of this can be



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1 related to known inputs of mercury, either from the

2 air or from the water, known inputs from the water.

3 It is known, as I have indicated

4 earlier, that there's a general increase in

5 atmospheric fallout of mercury.

6 Q. That's one thing I would like to nail

7 down, in my own layman's understanding.

8 Are we looking at, in your opinion, a

9 mercury problem that has always been pretty much at

10 the same level it's at now, and we just simply

11 didn't have the technology to notice and measure it,

12 or do we have an increased mercury problem, with

13 which we will have to deal with in some manner?

14 A. Both of those statements are essentially

15 true.

16 As I have indicated earlier, we have

17 always had this situation, but we have only recently

18 recognized that top predators in almost all

19 environment, of higher mercury than the lower-- than

20 lower organisms, lower in the ecosystem.

21 But as I've also indicated, and it's

22 very well documented, that during the industrial--

23 since industrial development has occurred and

24 there's much more burning of coal, much more

25 emission of mercury through smelters, that the total



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1 atmospheric burden of mercury is significantly

2 higher than it was 150 years ago, and this has been

3 well documented in cores from various parts of the

4 world.

5 Q. So there is a problem with which we will

6 need to deal?

7 Is that accurate, on a broad scale

8 sense?

9 A. This problem has always been there.

10 It has always-- it is, in my view,

11 accentuated by increased fallout atmosphere of

12 mercury.

13 Q. But I'm asking you, do we need to do

14 something to remediate the atmospheric inputs of

15 mercury, in your opinion?

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Which atmospheric

17 inputs?

18 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about

19 worldwide, industry-wide or Florida-wide or--

20 BY MS. PONZOLI:

21 Q. Worldwide, U.S., Florida.

22 A. Okay. That's going to be very

23 difficult. There are two major sources of mercury

24 in the atmosphere.

25 Mercury in the atmosphere is elemental



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1 mercury. It's the same mercury you see in a

2 thermometer, except instead of being in liquid form,

3 it vaporizes.

4 And this comes from two major sources,

5 as I have indicated.

6 One is a natural source, mercury, or

7 cinavar, c-i-n-a-v-a-r, mercury, which is mercury--

8 mercuric sulfide.

9 These deposits are exposed in different

10 parts of the earth, and there's always a small

11 amount of mercury being vaporized, and that's been

12 in-- this source has been there for geologic time,

13 and is a low initial source that I spoke about.

14 The other is mercury that largely

15 results from burning of coal, incinerators,

16 smelters, the-- that is emitted into the atmosphere,

17 in a gaseous form, and circulates into the-- and

18 comes out in rainfall and in dry deposition.

19 It is, to answer your question what-- as

20 I understand it, you asked is there a problem, that

21 we need to do something about it and what can we do

22 about it. About the only thing that can be done is

23 to try to curtail emissions of mercury from these

24 industrial sources, by preventing mercury from going

25 into incinerators, and by not-- by not incinerating



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1 medical and scientific products that contain

2 mercury; by using non-mercury batteries.

3 All of these things are being done, and

4 by using scrubber systems in power plants and

5 smelters that will remove mercury.

6 Nothing can be done about the natural

7 emissions from geologic materials.

8 This is my own opinion.

9 Q. Right. I understand, and that's really

10 what I'm pretty much asking you.

11 Now, we have taken care of, in some sort

12 of a broad brush fashion, the air.

13 Let's look at the water.

14 Is there something, in your opinion, in

15 the Everglades, that needs to be done regarding the

16 water and whatever processes occur for the

17 methylization of the mercury, to remediate the

18 mercury problem?

19 A. The Everglades presents an interesting

20 situation with regard to mercury.

21 I would confess, in the beginning, I

22 didn't understand completely, and I would like to

23 understand it better.

24 In fact, it's a research area I very

25 much would like to get into with my institute, but



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1 the movement of mercury into biota and on into fish,

2 is less in eutrophic systems that contain

3 appreciable dissolved organic matter, so the very

4 conditions that are causing eutrophic conditions in

5 the Everglades as a result of nutrient inputs,

6 mediate against methylmercury movement into the food

7 chain, and, in fact--

8 Q. Is that demethylization? Is that the

9 process that's referred to as demethylization that,

10 you're referring to?

11 A. No. That's-- one of the other is

12 absorption of mercury into organic matter, that

13 makes it not bio-available.

14 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you have an

15 opinion whether the proposed STAs of whatever size,

16 will, as I guess the Cooperative has on occasion

17 referred to them-- the methylization creators, so

18 that there is a net export of methylmercury coming

19 out of the STAs?

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of

21 the question, to he extent that it presumes-- that

22 is the position taken by the other side, and my

23 prior objection held.

24 THE WITNESS: I haven't dealt with that

25 specific problem as such, but there is no question



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1 that there will be more methylmercury formed in

2 anaerobic sediment, which the STAs will create, as

3 compared to the agriculture soil, which is aerated

4 and in which methylmercury cannot form to any

5 appreciable extent in the aerated portion of the

6 soil.

7 It's not quite that simple, though,

8 since presumably, the STAs, will be very eutrophic.

9 They are designed for high biomass

10 production and removal of phosphorus, and this will

11 make it more difficult for any methylmercury

12 produced to get into the food chain, so it is hard

13 to know how to balance these-- these two effects.

14 I have no definite opinion that-- that

15 the drainage from the STAs will or will not increase

16 the movement of mercury into the food chain.

17 I haven't worked through this to that

18 extent that I can offer an opinion at this time.

19 Q. Do you have an opinion that if you

20 assumed that the STAs reduced the phosphorus coming

21 into the greater water conservation areas, would

22 that decrease the movement of mercury in those water

23 conservation areas into the food chain?

24 A. Let's see. I'm not sure I understand

25 your question.



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1 Q. It's probably the question's fault.

2 A. If I could paraphrase your question.

3 Q. Right.

4 A. To make sure I understand it-- that I'm

5 answering the right question.

6 Just the reduction of phosphorus, alone,

7 if the STAs significantly reduce phosphorus--

8 Q. Yes, sir.

9 A. In the drainage water--

10 Q. Yes, sir.

11 A. If this, alone, would have some effect

12 on the mercury export or the mercury uptake?

13 Q. No. The-- would it have some

14 significant effect on the methylization occurring

15 within the water conservation areas, and

16 subsequently the movement of that methylmercury into

17 the food chain?

18 A. My opinion is that it would not, because

19 the-- as we perhaps sometimes will learn--

20 Q. We have three days, Doctor Patrick.

21 I'll get around to it.

22 A. The redox potential values in the-- all

23 parts of the Everglades, are producing enough to

24 support methylization, and so those conditions

25 already exist, so I can't imagine that if the STAs



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1 do treat water to the design concentrations, that it

2 will have any effect one way or the other.

3 Q. Just so I can sort of leap to the bottom

4 line, do you see any beneficial effect to reducing

5 phosphorus if the drainage water for the water

6 conservation areas, through STAs or any other

7 mechanism?

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could you read that last

9 question back?

10 (Thereupon the referred to

11 question was read back by the

12 reporter as above recorded.)

13 THE WITNESS: Do I see any benefit of

14 reducing the phosphorus export from the EAA into the

15 water conservation areas?

16 BY MS. PONZOLI:

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. There would be the benefit of lessor

19 lower plant growth.

20 There would be-- if this is a benefit.

21 The-- my observation is, in general

22 answer to this question, is that phosphorus in the

23 drainage water of the-- from the EAA coming into the

24 water conservation areas, is removed pretty rapidly

25 into a fairly low level, within a short distance,



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1 some kilometers, and the only impact is in the--

2 that area receiving the drainage water.

3 This does represent a higher phosphorus

4 level than ordinarily would be in that area, and

5 certainly stimulates the growth of all species of

6 plant, both the typha and the caladium.

7 That may or may not have detrimental

8 effects-- my expertise is not so much the ecological

9 impact of the phosphorus as its characteristics--

10 it's built up in the soil and it's built up-- effect

11 on the primary productivity, not necessarily the

12 whole ecosystem, as such.

13 Q. I understand what you're telling me.

14 So in this same, very broad brush

15 fashion that I have been asking these questions, let

16 me ask you this: If I understand your answer sort of

17 accurately, the issue is do you put STAs, sort of in

18 the ag land areas or public land areas, or do you

19 simply use those marshes that exist within the WCAs,

20 to reduce the drainage water phosphorus?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It's a choice of one or the other?

23 A. Yes. I have a very definite opinion on

24 that.

25 Q. Is that what we're choosing between,



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1 more or less, in your opinion?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You do have a definite opinion on which

4 one is the better choice, I gather?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I got a feeling I know what it is, but I

7 need to ask you.

8 A. You may never guess.

9 Q. Doctor Patrick, which is the better

10 choice, in your opinion?

11 A. As I presume I will deal with in the--

12 talk with the STAs, the capacity-- their capacity to

13 remove phosphorus, the present marsh areas that are

14 receiving this water are going to be much more

15 efficient in removing phosphorus, than the STAs will

16 for some years to come, and in that sense, will

17 serve to-- will continue-- could continue to serve

18 to remove phosphorus, what can be called excess

19 phosphorus, that is-- that that is caused by

20 drainage from the EAA.

21 Q. Okay. That's the global answer, that

22 you believe they are more efficient in removing

23 phosphorus than the STAs, for some number of years?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have an idea of how long?



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1 A. My best estimate, it would be six to

2 eight years before the STAs will be able to function

3 at the same level as the water conservation areas in

4 removing phosphorus above the 50 parts per billion

5 level.

6 Could I-- could we take a five minute

7 break?

8 MS. PONZOLI: Sure.

9 (Thereupon a recess was taken

10 in the deposition, after which

11 the deposition continued as follows:)

12 BY MS. PONZOLI:

13 Q. Just to clarify another point, Doctor

14 Patrick, I assume that whether we use the marshes

15 that presently exist, which I believe will be more

16 efficient in removing phosphorus, or we use STAs, is

17 it fair to say that the mercury issue is a separate

18 issue from which of these clean-up mechanisms we

19 use?

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the

21 mischaracterization of his prior testimony, and if

22 you can respond, go ahead.

23 THE WITNESS: I think that's the general

24 assessment that I would agree with, that would be a

25 separate issue.



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1 BY MS. PONZOLI:

2 Q. And just to carry that one step further,

3 if I understand your answers, we're probably going

4 to have the mercury problem that we're seeing in the

5 Everglades, regardless of which of these two

6 clean-up areas we're using to reduce the phosphorus

7 and-- in the drainage water.

8 Is that accurate?

9 A. Well, not completely.

10 I'm not convinced that in the high

11 nutrient system that the present 2-A, and portions

12 of three-- that are occurring as a result of input

13 of nutrient, or that there are the proposed STAs are

14 going to aggravate the mercury problem.

15 As I indicated earlier, the mercury

16 problem seems to be most pronounced in somewhat

17 pristine areas, that are low in nutrient and low in

18 dissolved and suspended organic matter in the water

19 column.

20 So we have got to-- we have a lot to

21 learn about the causes and the possible solutions of

22 the mercury problem in-- in North America, not just

23 in the Everglades, because this same problem occurs

24 in North Florida, and it occurs all throughout the

25 south, and it occurs in many other parts of the U.S.



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1 and in the world.

2 Many problems we don't know about, until

3 we get the techniques to evaluate.

4 Q. Sure. I understand.

5 Let me ask one more sort of large scale

6 questions, and then I'll try to start cleaning up

7 this notice and moving back to your actual opinions

8 that you have been prepared to come and talk about.

9 In a general sense, is it your opinion

10 that these present marsh areas that have the high

11 nutrient systems you were referring to, that they

12 are stabilized and not expanding?

13 A. That's very difficult for me to answer,

14 since I've only been involved in this work for about

15 four years, but-- and I have not been asked, nor

16 have I observed whether there's a expansion or

17 contraction taking place, but from what I can

18 understand, if there is any expansion, and I presume

19 you're referring to the expansion of typha in

20 relation to sawgrass-- if there is any expansion,

21 it's extremely slow.

22 It hasn't been observable, at least to

23 me, so I-- I don't really have a definite opinion on

24 that, except to say that not only does typha respond

25 to increased nutrient, but caladium or sawgrass also



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1 responds to increased nutrients, and this can be

2 seen by looking at the-- observing the height and

3 the growth of sawgrass in areas where there are more

4 nutrients than in other areas, so I cannot say for

5 sure that nutrient inputs, as such, are related to

6 even the establishment or the expansion of these

7 different vegetation communities.

8 I think it's more complex than that.

9 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Let's assume

10 that one's definition of the marsh area, that is in

11 the high nutrient system, went beyond those areas

12 that exhibited typha or increased growth in the

13 caladium-- did I pronounce that--

14 A. Caladium, yes.

15 Q. Let's assume our definition of these

16 areas extended on into elevated phosphorus to

17 greater depths of the soil, than one would find in

18 the background areas, with increased microbial

19 activity, etcetera.

20 Do you have an opinion as to whether

21 there's an expansion that's occurring because of the

22 phosphorus in the drainage water?

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form of

24 the question, to the extent it sort of left open

25 parameters, the definition of the nutrient area.



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1 You can go ahead and respond.

2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. You really need

3 to restate the question. I really didn't understand

4 what you're asking.

5 BY MS. PONZOLI:

6 Q. You're probably right. No problem.

7 A. Maybe you could break it down into two

8 simple questions.

9 Q. What I'm trying to ask you is-- you can

10 say you have no opinion on expansion--

11 A. I may have an opinion, but I don't

12 understand the question.

13 I will have to understand the question.

14 Q. Clearly-- let's just start with a

15 rational set of, you know, premises.

16 If one were choosing between using the

17 present marsh areas or building the STAs, an issue

18 of concern would be whether the present marsh areas

19 are-- are expanding areas?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. They are not totally stable, so we can

22 say, all right, you take so many acres of 2-A, and

23 that's it, and that will do the job, but we have an

24 ever expanding area that's needed to do the job, and

25 if I understood your answer before, you kind of, on



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1 the one hand, didn't have an opinion on whether it

2 was expanding, but it wasn't really clear to--

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether

5 that area in 2-A is expanding?

6 A. I thought I had made it clear, I had

7 made no observation; I had no data on whether it was

8 expanding or not.

9 That was not an objective I had, to

10 determine that the transition area was expanding.

11 Q. So you have no opinion today, as you sit

12 here, on expansion?

13 A. I have no definite knowledge whether it

14 has expanded or not, during this period of study.

15 Q. And you have no opinion on

16 stabilization?

17 A. Well, yes, I do have an opinion.

18 Q. Okay. What is your opinion on

19 stabilization?

20 A. Well, my opinion is the system is

21 generally stable, because it's-- it's my belief that

22 the areas in which there is typha that-- the typha

23 is there, not solely because of the nutrient, but

24 because of the-- because of disturbance and water

25 depth.



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1 And unless that changes, I see no real

2 reason for there to be an expansion.

3 I'm not in my-- my opinion is, and this

4 is an opinion-- that it takes more than just

5 nutrient, alone, to cause this transition.

6 There has to be other mechanism for--

7 there has to be a mechanism for typha to become

8 established and move in, because, as I have

9 indicated, sawgrass, itself, will respond to

10 increased nutrient by increased growth, as is

11 evident in the transects below 10-C.

12 Q. Then I would assume that you would

13 agree, the periphyton communities and the microbial

14 communities, would also respond to increased

15 nutrient input?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And so the defined area, however one

18 defined it-- wherever one drew the lines on the

19 map-- they would have to be-- would you agree,

20 beyond just the typha areas, but also in the areas

21 where you're seeing changes in the periphyton

22 communities and changes in the microbial

23 communities?

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form, to

25 the extent that you're assuming that is beyond the



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1 typha area.

2 THE WITNESS: Well,, I thought I had made

3 it clear in my answer, I had not observed changes.

4 I have observed a gradient that is

5 there, but--

6 BY MS. PONZOLI:

7 Q. A gradient in what, Doctor Patrick?

8 A. In the plant communities, but your

9 question was based on the supposition that I had

10 observed changes in that, and I thought I made it

11 clear I had not observed changes in the extent of

12 these plant communities.

13 Q. Do you mean that-- when you say you have

14 not observed changes, you didn't see it-- see a

15 change from sawgrass to cattail?

16 It was always cattail, when you saw it?

17 Is that accurate, that you--

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Is that--

20 A. I presume, change is an event over time.

21 Q. It goes to our definition of change, and

22 I understand exactly what you're saying.

23 You do see a gradient in plant

24 communities?

25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. Where would you, along that gradient in

2 plant communities, come to the end of your line and

3 say, "This is the enriched area which is doing the

4 job for the phosphorus, and it's not going to go

5 beyond that, in my opinion"?

6 Do you have such an area in your mind?

7 A. Is not or has-- is not--

8 Q. Has not. Let's start with has not.

9 A. That is pretty evident from transects

10 done by Doctor Richardson, Doctor Reddy, and by me,

11 and goes for some kilometers down south of 10-C, and

12 goes into the-- into the sawgrass, caladium zone,

13 because there's some increase in nutrient on down

14 into the solid sawgrass?

15 A. That is the present situation.

16 Q. So you can draw that line where the

17 increased nutrient stops, simply by data collection?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you have no knowledge of whether

20 that place is expanding, year by year?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. But you would conclude that is an

23 important consideration into which you would use the

24 natural areas or the man-made areas?

25 A. It would be one consideration.



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1 Q. I would like to return and clean up a

2 few things here before lunch.

3 We had gone down this long trail,

4 beginning with paragraph four of your notice duces

5 tecum, where the word mercury appeared.

6 A. Let's see. We got no further than that.

7 Q. We got no further than that.

8 And then in paragraph five, you have

9 been asked to provide the documents and data that

10 would go to your expert opinions in the proceedings,

11 and there have been some mention in the prior

12 paragraph, that there are certain documents by

13 Doctor Davis and Doctor Richardson, that have not

14 been reproduced, but there's a belief that they

15 have-- they have been produced for prior

16 depositions, and we're going to have to get with

17 what those are.

18 Other than those, do you believe that

19 you provided everything in paragraph five?

20 A. Okay. Let me read paragraph five, to

21 make sure I understand it.

22 Q. Go ahead.

23 A. To my knowledge, this is essentially

24 correct.

25 Although having carried out dozens and



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1 dozens of research type projects dealing with

2 nutrient and phosphorus, and-- it would be almost

3 impossible to say that I didn't get one bit of

4 information that I wouldn't use from some document

5 that I did not provide, but in-- within-- to the

6 best of my knowledge, yes. Yes, for five.

7 Q. Okay, and also for number six, is this

8 what Mr. Kobelinski of the League is saying, and

9 U.S. Sugar is saying, that they do not believe that

10 they have to provide?

11 A. Let's see. Provide all correspondence,

12 contracts, agreements--

13 Yes. As I say, I provided all of that,

14 except that which was denoted to me as protected.

15 Q. Have you done reports, Doctor Patrick,

16 to Earl, Blank, or the Sugar Cane League?

17 Have you actually done reports on your

18 work?

19 A. Yes. Some reports, yes.

20 Q. What were those?

21 Were those withheld, Mr. Kobelinski?

22 I'm not trying to take your deposition,

23 but I don't think I have any such reports, so I'm--

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: You want to take a five

25 minute break, because I'm not sure I know what



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1 report he's referring to.

2 It won't be five minutes, but--

3 MS. PONZOLI: Sure.

4 Off the record.

5 (Thereupon a recess was taken

6 in the deposition, after which

7 the deposition continued as follows:)

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: I think if you pursue

9 perhaps a little bit of the questioning.

10 What this witness was referring to--

11 nothing like records or draft reports. He's just

12 referring to a couple of status letters that he's

13 done, telling us the status.

14 Has not done any type of report on the

15 work, conclusion, etcetera, as such, yet.

16 We have letters to-- between the witness

17 and attorney. We are withholding those as

18 privileged, although I don't recall it's the report

19 that you're referring to.

20 I don't think you have the correct

21 conception of what those are, that Doctor Patrick

22 mentioned in the record a few moments ago.

23 BY MS. PONZOLI:

24 Q. Is that accurate, you have not done

25 status reports, but letters, Doctor Patrick?



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1 A. I'm not sure I can distinguish between

2 status letters and reports.

3 Q. I certainly don't think I can, and I am

4 certainly going to argue that I'm entitled to every

5 one of those reports.

6 I would like to put on the record, Mr.

7 Kobelinski, I'm requesting those reports be produced

8 or status letters, tomorrow morning, in addition to

9 the correspondence and the contract and agreements,

10 as to his employment.

11 Mr. Nettleton and I have been refreshing

12 our memory, while you discussed the report concept

13 with Doctor Patrick, and it's our recollection this

14 issue was resolved at a hearing before the hearing

15 officer, and that contract-- all this is supposed to

16 be produced, and if federal people have withheld

17 those improperly, if you will give me their names, I

18 will try to remediate the situation, but I am asking

19 that those be produced tomorrow morning, and would

20 like to make it clear that we expect those to be

21 done, and that we are willing to do the same thing.

22 If we have not--

23 MS. PONZOLI: I know.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: I know at least Doctor

25 Kadlic has not. I know Doctor Wetzel has not and



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1 Doctor Mendelson-- Doctor Mendelson was unable to

2 say specifically how much, and Doctor Wetzel, same

3 thing, and etcetera, so as I said, it's-- as long as

4 it's on a consistent basis, that's fine.

5 With regard to correspondence between

6 attorneys and expert witnesses, we will not be

7 producing those. Those are privileged, and if you're

8 asking him with regard to that type of matter, I can

9 add to that list almost every witness they have

10 taken from the federal government, which Bob Johnson

11 has had numerous correspondence with counsel in

12 this--

13 MS. PONZOLI: I believe that's

14 different. An attorney-client communication is far

15 different from a communication between hired

16 consultant or testifying expert, and the attorney.

17 That's a very different situation, and I

18 don't believe that we have held back correspondence

19 for testifying witnesses.

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: Bob Johnson is listed as

21 a testifying witness.

22 MS. PONZOLI: But he is a client. He's

23 not like Mr. Wedgeworth, or I don't know if you have

24 some of your clients listed as witnesses or not.

25 I don't believe you have been very



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1 anxious to put those before the court.

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: I don't have many

3 clients that are scientists, and that's what this

4 case deals with.

5 That's not for this record, but I-- I

6 disagree with your distinction, someone is an

7 employee and-- an expert you retain and have

8 correspondence with in the preparation of your case,

9 is not attorney work product, is what you're saying,

10 and I-- I believe it is attorney work product, which

11 is privileged, and as such, has been listed on the

12 privileged list, and it's not extensive.

13 If there has been some sort of

14 resolution with regard to the contract materials and

15 particularly bills, that's fine.

16 As I said at the beginning of this

17 deposition, as long as it's a consistent and mutual

18 matter, that's-- then I believe everything will be

19 resolved.

20 MR. NETTLETON: I'll just join in Ms.

21 Ponzoli's comments and request, and just for

22 clarification, my understanding was that there was

23 a-- with Bill Hyde, that the League would be turning

24 over all contracts and invoices and so forth, with

25 regard to your experts.



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1 That was agreed to in open hearing.

2 As far as your references to Doctors

3 Wetzel and Mendelson, I didn't think they were quite

4 accurate, and we have turned over any contracts

5 where they have been requested, or invoices where

6 they have been requested.

7 Maybe they weren't requested, and that's

8 why you didn't get them, and they also answered the

9 questions as to the time spent, to the best of their

10 abilities.

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Without those invoices--

12 you're probably correct, perhaps they don't state

13 invoices, but just like paragraph two, this Exhibit

14 One to this deposition, does not state invoices, to

15 say that-- you are drawing that narrow construction,

16 and we are likewise, going to draw the narrow

17 construction with regard to this.

18 I'm not going to play semantics, Paul,

19 but the duces tecum everyone is using, is very

20 similar.

21 It's not been produced by the District

22 and not by the U.S., and they have not been produced

23 in this particular instance. If you are going to

24 produce them, I don't have a problem with them.

25 MR. NETTLETON: I believe we have



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1 produced them wherever they have been requested.

2 That's the bottom line.

3 MS. PONZOLI: I know for a fact that

4 Doctor Jones' contract and the amounts reflecting

5 what he did and how much, were produced at Doctor

6 Jones' deposition, so, you know, I guess what I'm

7 saying is that if you can show me where documents of

8 this nature were not produced for other federal

9 witnesses, I will remediate it.

10 I agree it should be consistent and

11 mutual. I have no problem with that.

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: As I said, the one-- the

13 deposition of Doctor Kadlic.

14 MS. PONZOLI: That was that the first

15 deposition, or--

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: No, just recently, a

17 week or two ago.

18 MS. PONZOLI: Was it for contracts on

19 this case or for other people?

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: On this case.

21 MS. PONZOLI: I will look into it.

22 MR. NETTLETON: Also, for the record, I

23 will mention what I consider the more important

24 aspect is the status letters or reports that-- I,

25 too, do not see a distinction between a letter



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1 versus a report, which reports on status and

2 analysis as being done in response to a request, for

3 purposes of developing testimony by an expert who's

4 been retained to provide testimony.

5 We have argued this a number of times

6 before the hearing officer, and although he has

7 personally not made a decision on it. I think the

8 law is clear, testifying experts are required to

9 turn over all documentation of that nature.

10 MS. PONZOLI: We would like that

11 distinction very clear, the money issue and then the

12 report/status letters.

13 I think they are two distinct issues.

14 All right. Let's move on.

15 BY MS. PONZOLI:

16 Q. Paragraph seven, would you read that,

17 Doctor Patrick, and please tell me if you believe

18 you have turned those over (indicating).

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And paragraph eight?

21 A. With the proviso that the correspondence

22 between me and the attorneys to my knowledge, is

23 not-- has not been turned over to you.

24 Q. Doctor Patrick, what is the volume of

25 that correspondence?



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1 Did you do monthly reports, or four

2 reports a year, or 17 reports a year, or a status

3 letter?

4 I don't care the title you put on it.

5 A. Early on in this program, the Sugar Cane

6 League, I believe, asked for monthly reports, which

7 I found difficult to comply with.

8 And so I really didn't comply with

9 those, and, in fact, stopped doing that.

10 Q. After a your or two or after a year?

11 A. Maybe after some months, after a year.

12 And so there were these reports, short

13 one or two page reports, and then after that, I

14 didn't correspond on any kind of a routine, regular

15 basis.

16 I-- except to give an assessment of

17 generally how much of the work I had done and what I

18 thought should be done and maybe requesting approval

19 or making a suggestion for additional work to be

20 done, something along that line, which is what-- as

21 I say, it's hard for me to distinguish, whether

22 that's a report or a-- what terms did we use, or a

23 status report, so that is the-- that's the kind of

24 documents I'm referring to.

25 Q. Did these happen sporadically each year,



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1 since '89?

2 A. Yes, or maybe since '90.

3 Q. Let me ask you, have you looked over any

4 of those in preparation for this deposition today?

5 A. I don't recall having looked over any of

6 those in preparation for this deposition.

7 Mainly because I have been in Asia for

8 three weeks.

9 Q. Did you review anything in preparation

10 for today, Doctor Patrick?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did you review in preparation for

13 today?

14 A. I reviewed a number of the documents

15 that have been provided to you.

16 Q. Specifically, can you recall the names

17 of any of them?

18 A. Well, I went through almost all of

19 those.

20 Q. In other words, you had sort of a pile

21 that's about four, five inches deep that you--

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That the attorneys provided to you, and

24 you went through again.

25 A. Well, actually, I provided those to the



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1 attorneys.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. So that was the essential kind of

4 documents that I reviewed.

5 Q. Can you name some of them, Doctor

6 Patrick, just so we're talking about the same ones,

7 rather than having you sit here and look through the

8 pile?

9 A. Let me--

10 Q. And-- look through the pile and tell me

11 what's not there (indicating).

12 A. (Witness complies.)

13 I looked through this document on the

14 beneficial effects of periodic drainage

15 (indicating).

16 I have looked through the work I did on

17 the accretion rate of phosphorus in a transect.

18 I looked through the work on the

19 Loxahatchee.

20 I mostly looked through the-- I looked

21 through the document on effects of drying on release

22 of phosphorus.

23 I looked through this document on the

24 capacity of the limestone layer to remove

25 phosphorus; this document, on the results of the



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1 Loxahatchee, and the comparison of the-- my

2 analysis, with those of Doctor Reddy and Richardson,

3 I reviewed.

4 I reviewed some of the background

5 documents, like, the-- Soil Science, like those, for

6 Florida-- and I reviewed the paper on phosphorus

7 mineralization by Diaz, D-i-a-z, et. al.

8 So that was the-- that's the sort of

9 thing that I reviewed in preparation for this

10 deposition.

11 Q. Do you recall anymore documents that you

12 reviewed, other than those?

13 A. I briefly reviewed some aspect of the

14 SWIM plan again, as related to the general

15 description of the area, and the release of

16 phosphorus in the EAA.

17 Q. Did you find those inaccurate?

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form.

19 THE WITNESS: I--

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: It's ambiguous as--

21 BY MS. PONZOLI:

22 Q. Did you find them accurate or

23 inaccurate?

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Same objection.

25 THE WITNESS: I had no difficulty with



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1 the-- in-- in accepting the material for the

2 sections that I read.

3 BY MS. PONZOLI:

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. But I was not reading them to assess

6 their accuracy or inaccuracy.

7 Q. Just so we-- before we begin on that, in

8 the broader fashion after lunch, you're listed as

9 having opinions on the SWIM plan; are you not?

10 A. I would presume so, insofar as it

11 relates to the establishment of STAs.

12 Q. And that's the only area that you really

13 believe that you'll be offering testimony directly

14 on the SWIM Plan, itself?

15 A. I don't want to hem myself in with a no

16 answer on that.

17 I--

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just briefly, object to

19 the question.

20 You're saying, directly to the SWIM

21 Plan.

22 I think all the issues he's addressing,

23 relate to the SWIM Plan, so I have difficulty with

24 your question, saying directly to the SWIM Plan.

25 MS. PONZOLI: I think I meant it in some



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1 sort of a generic way.

2 Do you have a quarrel with the way

3 certain portions of it are written, or is it simply

4 the establishment of the STAs and the process that

5 will occur in those, is a remediation that will be

6 the focus of your testimony?

7 THE WITNESS: That's a good statement of

8 my belief and, but I-- if some other aspect came up,

9 I wouldn't want to-- that I really-- that dealt with

10 something other than STAs, I wouldn't want to be

11 hemmed in on that, but in my view, that is the--

12 that is-- in my mind at this time, that is the main

13 item in the SWIM Plan that I would be dealing with.

14 BY MS. PONZOLI:

15 Q. I would like to clean up one-- well, I

16 have two questions, really.

17 Did you read any depositions in

18 preparation for today, Doctor Patrick?

19 A. I have read portions of Doctor Kadlic's

20 deposition.

21 Q. Any others?

22 A. I can't recall reading any others.

23 Q. What portion of Doctor Kadlic's did you

24 read?

25 A. I skimmed through most of it, but I



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1 can't identify any particular portions that I read

2 in detail.

3 Q. Is this the first or second, or both?

4 A. I think this is the second.

5 I-- although I'm not very clear on this,

6 this is a deposition taken by a Mr. Burgess, with

7 Doctor Richardson present, in Michigan several

8 months ago.

9 If there's been a more recent

10 deposition, I don't know about it.

11 Q. I think there was one last week.

12 A. Oh, I haven't-- not only have I not read

13 it, I didn't even know the deposition was even

14 taken.

15 Q. Okay. One final question.

16 Anything else-- have you reviewed

17 anything else, to the best of your recollection, for

18 preparation for today?

19 A. If I had it in my briefcase, I could

20 look at that.

21 Q. But they wouldn't let you bring it,

22 would they.

23 A. Well, not unless there was something

24 they wanted to introduce.

25 Well, let's see.



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1 MS. PONZOLI: Off the record.

2 (Off the record discussion.)

3 THE WITNESS: I reviewed the-- let's see.

4 I'm really not clear on this, but I reviewed some--

5 just some other general documents, and I'm trying to

6 think what they are.

7 I-- could I give you this answer

8 tomorrow?

9 BY MS. PONZOLI:

10 Q. Sure. I would like you to just bring

11 with you what you reviewed.

12 A. What I reviewed is in the public domain,

13 so that should be no problem.

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just out of curiosity,

15 we're setting a precedent here, if you have any

16 questions he wants to answer tomorrow, he will say,

17 "All right, I'll tell you that answer tomorrow"?

18 MS. PONZOLI: No. I have one more

19 question.

20 THE WITNESS: I would say, my problem is

21 I hesitate to definitely answer a question, when I'm

22 just not absolutely sure, and not-- to the best of

23 my recollection, those are the most-- almost all of

24 the documents, but there is-- there's another

25 general document, too, on the Everglades that I'm



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1 sure I looked over, and I can't recall just what it

2 is, but I'll get that for you.

3 MS. PONZOLI: I would appreciate that. I

4 really would.

5 THE WITNESS: They may be in this group

6 here.

7 BY MS. PONZOLI:

8 Q. You said that you had no knowledge of a

9 nutrient front that was expanding.

10 Do you have an opinion as to whether it

11 is, in fact, expanding?

12 A. My opinion is that if it is expanding,

13 it is expanding very slowly, because there's a

14 vertical expansion of the nutrients by build up of

15 peat, and this shrinks out to a very low rate, with

16 a reasonable distance from-- along the transect in

17 2-A.

18 I-- and by the time a point is reached

19 where the water concentration is somewhere in the

20 range of the 50 parts per billion, the accretion

21 rate of phosphorus is-- and peat is very low, and

22 even thins out from there, so most of the-- most of

23 the input is taken care of, vertically, rather than

24 horizontally, which is what the cesium dating and

25 phosphorus accretion has shown.



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1 Q. This is a vertical expansion, but you

2 believe that the horizontal expansion, if it exists,

3 is very low?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That's a fair summary of your opinion?

6 A. Yes. Most of the phosphorus is taken

7 care of vertically.

8 MS. PONZOLI: Okay. I would like to break

9 for lunch.

10 (Thereupon a lunch recess was

11 taken in the deposition, after which

12 the deposition continued as follows:)

13 THE WITNESS: Could I say before we start

14 on something else, that having some food prompted me

15 to think about the other documents that I reviewed

16 in preparation for this deposition, and not from

17 information gleaned from my attorney here, but--

18 MR. KOBELINSKI: I appreciate that.

19 THE WITNESS: But strictly on my own, I

20 reviewed Doctor Kadlic's-- a couple of documents

21 from him, one by Kadlic and Newman, that I'm sure is

22 in the record, and another assessment by Doctor

23 Kadlic of the phosphorus dynamics and the-- in the

24 Everglades, and then I reviewed a paper by Steve

25 Davis in Aquatic Botany, over a year or so ago, and



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1 I reviewed a paper by Doctors Kraft and Richardson

2 on the phosphorus in transect-- in 2-A, and I

3 reviewed-- I think I mentioned I reviewed some

4 documents on soil information in the Everglades that

5 are in this list here of items that I furnished you,

6 and I reviewed reports from Doctor Reddy on

7 phosphorus release in-- as a result of flooding, and

8 I reviewed a paper by Diaz and Anderson and somebody

9 else, on phosphorus release from soils in the

10 Everglades agricultural area in response to flood,

11 so those were documents that I-- that I reviewed, in

12 addition to the ones that I indicated to you.

13 BY MS. PONZOLI:

14 Q. With all due respect, Doctor Patrick, I

15 should have eaten your lunch.

16 A. I--

17 Q. Is that the Diaz article that you

18 mentioned to me previously?

19 I can't seem to find it.

20 A. Yes. It's in the material that I

21 furnished you.

22 Q. Without belaboring the point, which I

23 really do not wish to do, can you tell me the Kadlic

24 and Newman article that you reviewed, what the

25 central point or points were, and whether you agreed



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1 or disagreed.

2 A. Well, the central point in the Kadlic

3 and Newman article was a description of the model,

4 in the mathematical description of 2-A, and the-- a

5 description of the discussion of the settling rates

6 and the whole dynamics of the system.

7 Q. And I take it that you disagree with

8 their description?

9 A. Well, what I recall from-- what I recall

10 from the system, is just the-- a description of the

11 system out at 10-C, and I neither read it in terms

12 of agreeing or disagreeing, just as background

13 information.

14 Q. Well, I guess I'm puzzled, then.

15 You don't have an opinion on that model,

16 or the settling rate explained there, or the

17 dynamics?

18 A. Well, yes, I do, but I would want you to

19 be specific about certain parts of it.

20 I'll be glad to go over the documents

21 with you, and--

22 Q. Sure.

23 A. In some detail, if you wished, but there

24 are parts of it that I agree with, and then parts

25 that I disagree with.



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1 I--

2 Q. Well, going to the fundamental concepts,

3 and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth-- I

4 guess it's my understanding that the League

5 disagrees with the settling rate.

6 Is that accurate, and that you, as one

7 of their experts, would probably be offering

8 testimony that the settling rate, as provided by the

9 Respondent, Intervenors, is not the appropriate

10 settling rate?

11 A. Well, I would contend that the-- there's

12 some problem with the settling rate of 10.25 meters

13 per year, because I don't think the data

14 substantiates that settling rate.

15 Q. Have you done an assessment of what you

16 believe the settling rate more appropriately would

17 be?

18 A. Not the settling rate, because to

19 analyze the settling rate, you also need the

20 phosphorus content of the surface water, which I did

21 not determine independently, but I did analyze

22 independently, the accretion rate, which is one of

23 the two components of the settling rate, the other

24 being the phosphorus concentration with distance in

25 the overlying water-- with distance from down the



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1 transect.

2 Q. But your specimens of the accretion

3 rate, differs from their assessment?

4 A. Only in relation to the stations of the

5 portion closest to 10-C.

6 Otherwise, it's in agreement fairly

7 well, with the accretion rate obtained by Doctor

8 Reddy and Doctor Richardson for other portions of

9 the transect in 2-A, south of structure 10-C.

10 Q. Okay. I'm not-- my understanding was

11 that you were in agreement with Doctor Richardson,

12 and, of course, that depositions are going on, even

13 as we speak, and I don't know what's being said in

14 that deposition, and I haven't reviewed his

15 documents, so I have to depend upon you to say

16 whether you are in agreement with Doctor

17 Richardson.

18 So if I understand you, you have not

19 done an appropriate settling rate? You have only

20 analyzed one portion of a settling rate, and you

21 disagree with doctors-- Doctors Kadlic and Newman in

22 their assessment of that?

23 Is that accurate?

24 A. Yes, in the sense that using Doctor

25 Reddy's first site, skews the settling rate to a



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1 higher value than I think is valid, plus the fact

2 that, as I understand it, Walker and Kadlic

3 corrected the settling rate for the periods when the

4 land was not inundated, which would-- which

5 correction would increase the effective settling

6 rate.

7 Q. So that tends to skew it upwards?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In an inaccurate way, in your opinion?

10 A. In my opinion.

11 Q. So I'm clear, you have not done your own

12 assessment of an appropriate settling rate?

13 A. Well, I have done an equivalent of that,

14 which is the accretion rate, which everyone has

15 done, and the settling rate-- and just divided the

16 accretion rate with the concentration, by distance,

17 and the only reason I didn't do that, is that I

18 would have to use someone else's data to do that.

19 It was apparent from my accretion

20 values, that except for the upper end, that my

21 values were in agreement with the accretion rate

22 obtained by Doctors Richardson and Reddy.

23 Q. I don't quite understand what the

24 problem would be for you in using someone else's

25 data for the phosphorus content of the surface



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1 water.

2 A. Well, there's no particular problem, but

3 others have done that, and if you-- you can look at

4 the accretion rates, and if they are the same, if

5 they are similar, then that means the settling rate

6 is the same.

7 Q. So in other words, you would agree

8 with-- well, I don't believe Doctor Richardson has

9 done a settling rate, though, has he?

10 He describes the ability to retain the

11 phosphorus in a different mechanism, doesn't he?

12 A. No. He has done settling rates.

13 Q. And that is what, his settling rate?

14 A. It's about six to eight meters per year,

15 as I recall.

16 Maybe six, if I recall.

17 And his data has been used by Doctor

18 Kadlic and Doctor Walker, as well.

19 It's called the Duke data, if you have

20 seen those.

21 Q. Right. I'm aware-- I think in some

22 ways-- let me ask you if this is accurate.

23 It isn't so much the data that people

24 seem to be disputing in this case, as the

25 interpretations of the data.



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1 Is that a fair assessment?

2 A. Yes. The way the data is used to

3 calculate an effective settling rate.

4 Q. So you would agree that the six to eight

5 meters a year, you believe that to be an

6 appropriate-- I think something like--

7 A. Well, say, six to eight would be what

8 the data shows, in my opinion.

9 Q. And if you were using 10.2, would you

10 believe that the area for the STAs would have to

11 increase which some percentage, if the-- if the

12 settling rate were actually in the six to eight

13 range?

14 A. Well, from my assessment of the capacity

15 of the STAs to remove phosphorus, it doesn't make a

16 lot of difference whether you use 10.25 or eight.

17 In either case, my assessment is that

18 the STAs will require six to eight years before they

19 will be able to effectively treat incoming drainage

20 water.

21 Q. Now, I assume that this effective

22 treatment will occur, sort of incrementally over

23 time.

24 Is that right?

25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. Can you give me some description of how

2 you believe that will progress?

3 A. Yes. This is-- this would be somewhat

4 detailed, if you want to spend some time on it.

5 Q. Well, no. Let's just go ahead and do it

6 now.

7 How do you think it will progress over

8 time?

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just so I understand the

10 full question, is how he believes what-- what will

11 progress?

12 I'm sorry.

13 MS. PONZOLI: He and I are understanding

14 each other. He's going to explain how the STAs will

15 take this six to eight years to become effective,

16 and that it's going to happen incrementally over

17 time, and he's going to explain to me, how that's

18 going to happen.

19 I have a very strong feeling, this is

20 going to be very technical.

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: To the extent that it

22 calls for a narrative answer, I will object.

23 MS. PONZOLI: Well, there are a lot of

24 them in this case.

25 THE WITNESS: I hoped it wouldn't be too



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1 technical, or I might not understand it, myself.

2 My assessment is based on information

3 from all of the non-agricultural work.

4 It's based on-- let's assume, for just

5 the purposes of this assessment, a settling rate of

6 10.25.

7 BY MS. PONZOLI:

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Let's also utilize the information

10 provided by Diaz, Anderson and someone else, on the

11 phosphorus-- in the paper, in Soil Science, in

12 phosphorus release in the Everglades area, as a

13 result of submersion, which is what will happen when

14 they are formed, placed into an STA.

15 Diaz, et. al., found that approximately

16 160 kilograms per hectare of available phosphorus

17 that was released in a year of incubation under

18 submerged conditions, if you to want use what is--

19 the units that are commonly used, in grams per meter

20 squares-- you divide kilograms by hectares by ten,

21 so that would be 16 kilograms per meter squared, per

22 year, released the first year.

23 This is the amount released in an

24 approximately 12 inch root zone, so to summarize the

25 results of Diaz, et. al., which is very important



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1 for this assessment, approximately 160 kilograms per

2 hectare, or 16 grams per meter squared of available

3 phosphorus will be released in these sugar cane

4 areas as a result of submergence.

5 The reason for this large amount of

6 available phosphorus in these soils, is that they

7 have been subsiding and oxidizing for decades, and

8 releasing the phosphorus, 95 plus percent of which

9 stays in the soil, itself, but in a relatively

10 available form.

11 This is why so little phosphorus

12 fertilizer is needed for sugar production in the

13 Everglades. This phosphorus is mineralized, which

14 is the same as released, as a result of oxidation,

15 due to oxygen entering the moist soil.

16 So that is the amount of available

17 phosphorus in the soil, to begin with.

18 If that is established on these soils,

19 according to values provided by Doctor Kadlic, this

20 standing crop of phosphorus in a wetland, such as

21 this, is 6.25 grams per meter squared, based on one

22 of these documents-- based on this document that I

23 cited earlier.

24 Q. He thinks that much will be taken out by

25 typha?



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1 A. That's what he reports as outstanding

2 crop of phosphorus in wetland.

3 Q. I'm confused as to the terminology.

4 You're going to have to help me there.

5 A. That's what he presented. This is a

6 model for the Everglades.

7 Q. Is the outstanding crop terminology

8 for--

9 A. Standing crop. The standing crop of

10 typha means just-- the standing crop of typha is the

11 amount of typha.

12 Q. Oh, I see. I'm with you. I'm--

13 A. That may include or may not include the

14 roots, as well.

15 So in the standing crop of carbon, say,

16 maybe the amount of carbon there and the amount--

17 standing crop of phosphorus, is the same thing.

18 Doctor Kadlic reported that the standing

19 crop of phosphorus in his model of the wetland, was

20 6.25.

21 There was 2.5-- 6.25 grams per meter

22 squared, or 62 and-a-half kilograms per hectare.

23 This standing crop consisted in his

24 model of 2.5 grams per meter squared in the standing

25 live crop, and 2.5 grams per meter squared in the



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1 roots, and 1.25, approximately grams per meter

2 squared in the dead standing crop, so given

3 approximately a top phosphorus that the crop can

4 take up of about six grams per meter squared, if you

5 recall that the soil provides the available-- the

6 soluble phosphorus in the soil is 160 kilograms, or

7 16 grams per meter squared, there's almost three

8 times the amount of available phosphorus in the

9 soil, available, that the plant can take up and

10 retain.

11 When typha is planted or allowed to

12 colonize in these established STAs, it is going to

13 take some years for this crop, the plant, to

14 assimilate and cycle that phosphorus through several

15 times, and produce enough peat to store this

16 phosphorus in an unavailable form, or to remove it

17 from the system.

18 The maximum amount of phosphorus that

19 can be fixed in the permanent peat, which is the

20 accretion rate, okay, is-- the maximum amount at the

21 upper end of 2-A, by Doctor Reddy, is 1.14, which

22 most people agree is much too high.

23 My maximum amount was about one, which

24 was from a station closer to 10-C, than Doctor

25 Reddy's station.



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1 So they-- the upper end of the STAs will

2 have an accretion rate of, say, one, and that's with

3 approximately-- that's with a phosphorus content of

4 the incoming water of approximately .14 part per

5 million, or 140 part per billion, which, as I

6 recall, is the projected level of incoming

7 phosphorus.

8 The water is to be treated to the point,

9 that the outflow is 50 parts per billion. That's the

10 concentration, and so the after accretion rate or

11 removal rate of phosphorus in the STAs, will be

12 approximately the average of the upper end accretion

13 rate of about one, at maximum, to a lower amount at

14 the point at which the water level is down to 50

15 parts her billion, or an average accretion rate of

16 about .5 or .6, .8, somewhere in that range.

17 Let's just assume that it's one. Let's

18 take the maximum, it's accreting one for that whole

19 duration, which is a very high figure.

20 I'm using in every case, the maximum

21 figures to give the most removal. I understand.

22 A. Walker is 10.25, accretion rate of one,

23 and then the incoming phosphorus at 140 parts per

24 billion, represents about one gram per meter squared

25 for that treatment area, okay?



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1 So we have a system here, then, to

2 describe the whole system-- a soil that has

3 available phosphorus level, 16 grams per meter

4 squared, a crop that at maximum, will hold, take up

5 6.25, and an incoming phosphorus level of one gram

6 per meter squared; a removal rate of one, maximum,

7 gram per meter squared, and so these figures don't

8 really-- now, in addition to situation--

9 Q. You think we'll have a net export of

10 phosphorus?

11 A. I think you and I arrived at the--

12 that's my conclusion, not yours, right?

13 Q. No. That's what I'm asking. I want to

14 see if I'm understanding you.

15 A. We haven't gotten to that point yet, but

16 the answer is yes.

17 If you want to go ahead--

18 Q. No. I want to do the steps. I do want

19 to do the steps.

20 I just want to make sure I'm

21 understanding. I think I am.

22 A. I'm almost finished with this.

23 All right. Keep in mind, also, this

24 standing crop of 6.25, all of the above ground

25 portion, according to Steve Davis' excellent paper



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1 in Aquatic Botany, 80 percent of the phosphorus in

2 the leaves of the standing crop are leached out by

3 rainfall, and if this goes into the water column,

4 and most of this is soluble phosphorus, or it

5 wouldn't be leached out-- even at that point-- part

6 of that 6.25, is cycled out, okay, and so the

7 phosphorus coming in from the root zone of the soil,

8 which has this availability of 16 grams per liter

9 squared, but the crops can't utilize all of it.

10 It takes a maximum of six, according to

11 Doctor Kadlic, and even-- and then-- so then in

12 addition to that, there's one gram per meter squared

13 coming in the drainage water, so there's excess of

14 phosphorus in that system, and will be for some

15 years, until your newly created STA creates a fairly

16 thick layer of peat similar to that in water

17 conservation area 2-A, at which time then the net

18 release will be such that it will treat this

19 incoming phosphorus, but before that happens, all of

20 this excess available phosphorus, which has

21 accumulated for decades in these sugar cane soils,

22 are going to have to be utilized by the plant,

23 cycled back through several times, with only a

24 fraction of it buried each year until all that

25 excess phosphorus is gone, or we will be exporting



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1 it in the groundwater, which is what will happen for

2 some years.

3 Q. Have you done any calculations-- are you

4 finished, Doctor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Have you done any calculations as to

7 over that six to eight year period, what you believe

8 we could expect to see coming out of the STAs?

9 I mean, we'll see a 150 or a 160,

10 actually an increase for the first couple of years,

11 and then we begin seeing it drop off by some

12 percentages?

13 Have you done any calculations along

14 those lines?

15 A. Yes. Just an estimation, and based on

16 the values that I've presented to you, and I haven't

17 come up with a figure, except to say this is a

18 source-- the STAs, for some years, are a source,

19 until they process this excess phosphorus, must be a

20 source of phosphorus, rather than a sink for

21 phosphorus, because the soils are pretty well

22 saturated.

23 They release phosphorus very easily.

24 The release of 160 kilograms per hectare is a

25 tremendous release of phosphorus.



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1 What we have in the proposed STAs, is a

2 huge reservoir of phosphorus, which are beginning--

3 I think we are going to begin to export to the water

4 conservation areas, and I'm amazed that no one has

5 taken a hard look at this.

6 Well, I-- that's an opinion, not to

7 answer a question.

8 Q. Well, I guess I was-- I would say that I

9 thought people had looked at the concept of a

10 phosphorus release in the early years, and I don't

11 really know the rationale as to why they thought

12 that wouldn't happen.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. I don't know the rationale.

15 Do you have data that shows that the

16 area below 10-C in 2-A, has less phosphorus in the

17 soil profile, then, let's say, the-- this whole

18 profile of the ENR, for example?

19 A. Well, I don't have data, but Doctor

20 Reddy and Doctor Richardson have data on the amount

21 of soluble phosphorus in these profiles, but keep in

22 mind that the areas south of 10-C and 2-A-- in 2-A

23 is a blanket of peat that has removed the

24 phosphorus, and is removing the phosphorus, and it

25 is serving as a sink of phosphorus, because of



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1 planned removal and tie-up in the system, that

2 actually-- actually settling-- not settling rate,

3 but accretion rate, in that zone from 10-C down to

4 the point I'm talking about, five kilometers, it--

5 whenever it reaches 50 parts per billion, and the

6 average accretion rate in there would be something

7 like .4 or .5 grams per liter squared.

8 It's a system that has-- that you

9 utilizes all the excess phosphorus, and it has built

10 up a layer of peat, and it is removing phosphorus at

11 that rate.

12 To me, it's out of the question to

13 expect a high phosphorus supply in soil like those

14 fertile soils in the EAA, to immediately begin to

15 assimilate and tie-up phosphorus at the same rate.

16 That they are going to be sources, not

17 sinks.

18 Q. I understand. Let me just make sure I

19 did understand your answer to me.

20 I think you answered my question. I

21 didn't completely understand your answer, but I do

22 believe you answered it.

23 The soil profile of the ENR, has been

24 compared to the soil profile for 2-A, below the

25 10-C, and the result of that is that soil profile



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1 and--

2 A. Sorry. The ENR--

3 Q. The Everglades nutrient removal.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. Is it the phosphorus that is in the soil

6 that is the important factor, so is it the fact that

7 the biomass in 2-A is creating so much--

8 A. First of all, I don't understand your

9 question. I didn't mention any soil profiles in the

10 ENR yet.

11 The Diaz report dealt with soils from

12 the Everglades agricultural area, right, but we have

13 to assume that the STAs will be built on former ag

14 land.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I guess that's what we're talking about,

17 the assumption, and the ENR is built on former ag

18 land--

19 A. Yes. The former Knight's Farm.

20 Q. That's right, and I was asking has that

21 soil profile been compared to the soil profile for

22 2-A, or are you saying other soil profiles from the

23 EAA?

24 Which is it?

25 A. I compared Doctor Reddy's data for



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1 available phosphorus in the ENR sites that he

2 analyzed.

3 Q. Right.

4 A. With the water conservation area one,

5 which was a pristine area, the center of the sites,

6 in one, and the amounts of-- I can't recall now if I

7 did this on the basis of total phosphorus or

8 available phosphorus, soluble phosphorus, but I

9 think it was total phosphorus-- but the amount of

10 phosphorus in the root zone in the ENR area, was

11 twice that of the soils in the natural wetland area

12 of the Loxahatchee, and a rough calculation, a

13 separate calculation of the amount of time that I

14 estimated it would require for the plant to take up

15 that additional phosphorus?

16 A. Assuming that they only-- they would

17 only be required to take up half of the excess

18 phosphorus, was about seven years, so I came-- I

19 arrived at this same amount of time, from a separate

20 source-- there is excess phosphorus in all of the

21 former ag areas, that is available and will be taken

22 up, assimilated and released by the standing crop of

23 whatever the wetland plant is, typha, or anything

24 else.

25 Q. Right, but just so I understand, your



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1 comparison and the foundation of your belief of the

2 STAs having this extended period before they would

3 reduce the phosphorus, is based on a comparison

4 between the available phosphorus in the ENR, and the

5 available phosphorus from the pristine area of

6 WCA-1?

7 A. That's only one comparison.

8 Q. That's only one.

9 A. That's the second one.

10 The first one I gave you, the more

11 elaborate one, is a independent comparison.

12 Q. Done by who?

13 A. By me.

14 Q. That was comparing the Diaz study, in

15 all the places in the EAA, with the 2-A?

16 A. Right, the ability of 2-A to remove

17 phosphorus.

18 Q. And in that case-- I'm sorry to belabor

19 this--

20 A. No. This is important.

21 Q. You were looking at soil profiles from

22 various locations in the EAA, and soil profiles in

23 2-A?

24 A. Not profiles in the EAA.

25 Their samples were taken from the root



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1 zone, which is the zone that will supply phosphorus

2 to the crop.

3 Q. I need to know, why, in sort of layman's

4 language, we aren't mixing apples and oranges.

5 Why aren't we looking at the root zone

6 in 2-A?

7 A. We know the root zone in 2-A is organic

8 and is removing phosphorus, that the supply of

9 phosphorus in that soil has been utilized by the

10 plant over decades, and has converted to-- most of

11 it, to a stable organic form.

12 And it is serving as a sink for

13 phosphorus, but the soils, the agricultural soils,

14 have been cultivated, oxidized, allowed the

15 phosphorus to be released in an available form, and

16 contained a very large amount of available

17 phosphorus, which the plant will take up and have to

18 cycle.

19 Q. Has anyone done a comparison, Doctor

20 Patrick, of the available phosphorus in the ENR, to

21 the available phosphorus in 2-A?

22 A. Doctor Reddy had a paper dealing with

23 that, and I don't know if he studied the

24 mineralization rate, or just the amount of available

25 phosphorus at any one time, but he also, in other



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1 studies-- and I think I provided you a copy of his

2 paper on that, showed that flooding a former drained

3 agricultural soil in the Everglades, increased the

4 available phosphorus from four to eight times, or

5 what it was under non-flooded conditions, so the

6 establishment of STAs on EAA land, presumably, then,

7 will stimulate greatly the release of available

8 phosphorus.

9 This was also shown by Diaz, where the

10 release under flooded conditions was something like

11 twice what it was under drained conditions.

12 Q. Does that mean, Doctor Patrick, that

13 when the EAA farmers flood their fallow fields and

14 then drain that water out to begin growing a new

15 crop, that this, in fact, is a significant

16 phosphorus release that begins each and every time

17 they do that?

18 A. Obviously so. The water coming out of

19 the EAA is 140 parts per billion.

20 However, I would say that most of that

21 available phosphorus remains in the soil, is not

22 completely soluble, but it is available to plant

23 roots, so it doesn't necessarily all leave with the

24 drainage water.

25 Q. So it wouldn't in the STAs, would it? It



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1 wouldn't all leave in the STAs?

2 A. Not from drainage, no, from the soil,

3 but keep in mind, in the STAs, in-- there's a water

4 column approximately two feet deep flowing over the

5 surface, so there is no subsurface drainage.

6 That's not going to be the source.

7 The problem is going to come because the

8 plants are taking up this excess phosphorus-- some

9 will be leached and moved with the water, okay, but

10 then also, the plants will be mining that

11 phosphorus, bringing it to the surface, to the above

12 ground portion, and is-- Doctor Davis showed that 80

13 percent of that is leached out of the leaves into

14 the water column, where it-- then it moves on.

15 Then more is taken up, see, from the

16 available, but it's a pump-- the plants are a pump

17 that are extracting that available phosphorus out of

18 the soil, and they are going to continue to do that,

19 until that excess phosphorus is either gone by

20 flowing out of the system, or-- and enough peat has

21 been formed to incorporate all of that excess

22 phosphorus in an unavailable form, and then the

23 system can deal with incoming phosphorus, you see?

24 It will be a phosphorus sink, then,

25 instead of a source.



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1 Q. I'm not sure if I recall your answer,

2 when I asked if you had done calculations--

3 A. On the amount?

4 Q. On the amount over the seven to eight

5 years.

6 Do you think we would be potentially

7 down to the 50 PPB in six, seven, eight years,

8 whatever the range was?

9 A. That's a rough estimate on my part,

10 using the maximum values for removal.

11 Q. When we started on this-- when I started

12 with the Kadlic and Newman, and then the Kadlic

13 paper-- it was in the Kadlic paper, assessment of

14 phosphorus in the-- was that one of the documents

15 you reviewed?

16 A. Are you asking me, was this title--

17 Q. I had just taken my notes on what you

18 had reviewed.

19 A. Yes. What is the question again?

20 I'm sorry.

21 Q. I was trying to go back and review these

22 documents, and pick up the central point from them,

23 and-- you have warned me ahead of time, you know, it

24 was going to need an explanation--

25 We had started with the Kadlic and



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1 Newman document and your thought on that, because--

2 maybe you have gone over all of them in your

3 explanation to me, but you said you had also

4 reviewed a document on assessment of phosphorus

5 dynamics in the Everglades.

6 Do you recall which document that is?

7 A. Yes. That's the one from which I took

8 the standing crop values of 6.25 for phosphorus,

9 provided by Doctor Kadlic.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. In this assessment, I made it a point

12 not to use any data generated by me or others.

13 I was trying to use data available from

14 either the University of Florida or from the South

15 Florida Water Management District, Doctor Davis'

16 data, or from Doctor Kadlic, so--

17 Q. Taking your best case, it's still pretty

18 bad, guys.

19 A. Yes. That's essentially-- that's

20 essentially my point.

21 Q. Right.

22 A. And that's what I firmly believe.

23 There is such a law as the conservation

24 of energy and mass, and there's phosphorus there and

25 it's got to be dealt with, and there is this excess



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1 phosphorus in this sugar cane, so with the present

2 cropping system, it recycles largely in the soil,

3 but with a proposed STA, the system is such that it

4 will be pulled out of the soil, into the plant,

5 leached out of the plant, and also there's a moving

6 column of water over that phosphorus rich soil,

7 and-- some will leach out, yes.

8 The major point is that it's commonly

9 thought that once the cover of vegetation is

10 established on the STAs, that then they will begin

11 immediately to process this incoming phosphorus, and

12 remove it down to a design level.

13 I strongly contend this is not the case,

14 that they are ignoring the fact that this recent

15 data of Diaz, et. al. data of Reddy, show that

16 there's a huge reservoir of phosphorus that they

17 aren't accounting for.

18 Q. Well, let me just sort of ask you a

19 bottom line type of question.

20 If your goal, Doctor Patrick, were to

21 reduce the incoming phosphorus from 140 or 200, or

22 whatever we figure out the actual incoming number

23 is--

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have an opinion as to the most



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1 effective, most appropriate way to do that, if you

2 wanted to get down to, say, 50, as your interim

3 limit?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What would that be?

6 A. Well, I must say that I have put

7 considerable thought into this, since this is the

8 real reason that I was engaged by the sugar cane

9 interests, is to help them deal with this problem.

10 There are several aspects to my approach

11 to achieve this 50 part per million goal, and this

12 is without acknowledging that this is the optimum

13 goal.

14 Q. I understand. That's my hypothetical,

15 just assume you want to get to 50, because as you

16 know, we don't even accept 50 as the ultimate goal.

17 We think it's just a step on the journey.

18 A. Okay, so we understand.

19 Q. Right. We understand.

20 A. First of all, in my view, the worst

21 thing that you would want to do is build a

22 tremendous reservoir of phosphorus adjacent to areas

23 that you want to protect, which is what the STAs are

24 designed to do. They are designed to collect all the

25 phosphorus adjacent to the water conservation areas,



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1 and assuming that they even work, and they will work

2 in time-- I thought it made it clear--

3 Q. You did.

4 A. That in time, they will function like

5 2-A, if you want to wait eight years.

6 See-- but the worst thing-- even with

7 that, it's my-- it's very detrimental to have that

8 huge reservoir of phosphorus, because, let's say the

9 hydrology of the system changes, and these areas

10 stay dry for two, three years, there's going to be a

11 tremendous release of phosphorus that is going into

12 the formerly protected areas.

13 They wouldn't be protected after this

14 happens, so this means that these storm treatment

15 areas must be maintained under anaerobic flooding

16 conditions almost continuously, for as long as the

17 project exists.

18 This argues, to my way of thinking,

19 greatly, for removing the phosphorus as close to the

20 source as it can be removed, which obviously argues

21 for a removal at the farm, at or near the farm

22 level, where the phosphorus is being generated.

23 So my-- in direct response to your

24 question-- my plan would be to utilize practices,

25 best management practices, and/or practices, other



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1 than just management-- of water, to remove most of

2 this phosphorus before it leaves either the farm or

3 the drainage district area, and before it gets even

4 close to 2-A, three and one, and this can be done--

5 this removal, I think, is feasible.

6 Q. In what ways?

7 A. Pardon?

8 Q. In what ways?

9 A. This removal I think is feasible, for--

10 in several-- by several mechanisms.

11 First of all, all of the drainage-- not

12 all of the drainage water leaving an agricultural

13 field has the same phosphorus content.

14 The drainage water, at certain times

15 when the farm drains, lowers the water table in

16 anticipation of a-- he's removing soil water that

17 has been in contact with the soil, and is generally

18 higher in phosphorus than is the case from the

19 runoff following a storm, so this represents a small

20 amount of water with a large amount of phosphorus.

21 As opposed to the large amount of what

22 the STAs are designed to do, is take a-- take a

23 large amount of phosphorus-- a small amount of those

24 out of a large amount of water, so that phosphorus

25 is easier to remove, and that can be done in a



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1 number of ways.

2 It can be done by using cropping

3 systems, maybe a rotation, so that in the rainy

4 season when there is excess water, that is also the

5 season when a rice crop needs the irrigation, and I

6 recommends this to the District some years ago, when

7 I attended a workshop that they had to set up

8 studies in the ENR to look at this.

9 It can also be done by constructive

10 ways. It may surprise you-- wetlands. It may

11 surprise you to know I'm not completely opposed to

12 constructed wetland.

13 Q. It might, although I have lost my

14 capacity for surprise.

15 A. Because constructed wetlands, even those

16 with typha on a small scale basis near the source of

17 the drainage, can be utilized to take phosphorus out

18 of drainage water, and it's a lot easier to take--

19 to remove a high concentration of phosphorus out of

20 a small amount of water, than it is to remove a

21 small amount of phosphorus out of a large amount of

22 water, which is what the STAs are designed to do,

23 and so management at the farm level, to sequester

24 high phosphate drainage water, in a number of ways,

25 with constructed wetlands or-- by interacting it



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1 with lime containing areas to precipitate the

2 phosphorus, and-- by retaining it in reservoirs,

3 until the algae formation and precipitation has

4 removed a good part of the phosphorus by chemical

5 means of mixing either actively or passively, this

6 high phosphorus water with calcium containing

7 compounds-- it can take a lot of this phosphorus out

8 of the system, and-- so it may not remove it down

9 to-- may or may not-- these treatments may or may

10 not remove it down to the project concentration,

11 they will certainly make the removal in an STA much

12 more effective, and require much smaller STAs,

13 which, in my mind, are the best ones of those

14 already established, like in the area south of 2-A.

15 Q. Let me ask you this: Have you done any

16 calculations of what type of areal treatment a

17 constructive wetland on a farm, would have to be in

18 order to treat some estimated percentage of the

19 water, the drainage water from that farm?

20 A. No. I really haven't done any precise

21 calculations.

22 I could do that, and that could be done,

23 but it would take-- it would take less total area to

24 remove, to treat a small amount of water with a high

25 amount of phosphorus, in constructed wetlands and



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1 other systems, than will be the case when this

2 phosphorus is mixed in with a larger amount of

3 water, and it is a dilute concentration going into

4 an STA, because typha, which is the likely

5 vegetation, even if you tried to put other species

6 in-- there's-- it's a plant that will take up a lot

7 of those, but it dilutes a lot of phosphorus out, so

8 it's much more effective at a high phosphorus

9 concentration, than it is at a low phosphorus

10 concentration.

11 Q. I need to ask you, just because I'm only

12 approaching this from a layman's common sense

13 standpoint, where you wouldn't have phosphorus

14 export from these small STAs, or these on-farm

15 treatment areas, as you would have from the

16 basin-wide STAs.

17 A. You would.

18 Q. But it's the same problem? You would

19 have a net export? You would, but--

20 A. Yes. You would have less export, but--

21 and it would be a bigger sink for a high

22 concentration of phosphorus, than it would be for a

23 low concentration of phosphorus.

24 If you run distilled water over an area

25 of land, even in 2-A, it's going to pick up



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1 phosphorus.

2 You finally reach a concentration, where

3 the-- there is no longer a source, but a sink.

4 These constructed wetlands I'm talking

5 about on farms or-- they receive high phosphorus

6 water, and they will start removing-- serving as a

7 source a lot earlier than the STA that--

8 Q. You mean they will start acting as a

9 sink a lot sooner?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Explain to me-- you're saying they will

12 be net exporters in the beginning, the same as the

13 big one, but they will reach a point that will

14 become a sink much faster?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that has to do with this function of

17 high phosphorus, low amount of water?

18 A. Yes.

19 Well, the water going into those, would

20 be, say, 500 parts per billion, okay, easily, and as

21 compared to, say, 200 going into the system, or 150,

22 more likely, because you presume there's going to be

23 some BMP provision, so forth, so-- maybe 120, so

24 even those phosphorus charged soils that-- that

25 ordinarily are going to release phosphorus



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1 initially, they-- they are much more likely to pull

2 this high-- some of this high phosphate,

3 high-phosphorus out of this-- phosphate out of this

4 high phosphorus water than you are out of a very

5 dilute solution.

6 In other words, the same sediment can

7 serve as a sink for phosphorus, at 500 parts per

8 million, where it can serve as a source for

9 phosphorus, at 200 parts per million, just because

10 of the equilibrium relationships between soluble and

11 absorbed phosphorus.

12 Q. Have you done any calculation on how

13 long you think it would take them to become sinks,

14 rather than sources, these on-farm treatment areas?

15 A. I haven't done that, but I think there's

16 a-- there's data available that would tend to allow

17 that to be done.

18 I think some of Doctor Reddy's

19 phosphorus equilibrium studies would show what

20 phosphorus-- what the phosphorus levels in the water

21 would be absorbed, so it's just a matter of going

22 into the literature to do that.

23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Can we take a break?

24 MS. PONZOLI: Sure. That's fine.

25 (Thereupon a recess was taken



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1 in the deposition, after which

2 the deposition continued as follows:)

3 BY MS. PONZOLI:

4 Q. Doctor Patrick, are you ready to go

5 back?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Doctor Patrick, are there any documents

8 that reflect calculations on why it would take six

9 to eight years to reach in these basin-wide STAs,

10 the potential 50 PPB?

11 A. There are no documents.

12 I'm thinking this is true, and I'm

13 just-- since I have been back from this trip, I have

14 reviewed this data of Diaz and others, and am in the

15 process of-- we'll be doing some specific

16 calculations, will be, and just give a range of

17 years.

18 I know it's going to take some time to

19 utilize this excess phosphorus. It won't just

20 disappear.

21 Q. Have you been asked to do those

22 calculations, to actually form an idea of--

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. Can you give me-- I know you

25 tried, and I'm sorry, I just didn't quite understand



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1 exactly how you have calculated out the six to eight

2 years-- how you-- why it didn't come out four to

3 five or three to four or six to seven.

4 A. Actually, it comes out more like ten,

5 but being always on the conservative side of this,

6 if you will recall the figures I gave you that Diaz,

7 et. al., found that the several sugar cane soils

8 that they analyzed, had a-- had available

9 approximately 16 grams per meter squared of

10 available phosphorus, and the-- and using the

11 maximum values for uptake of settling rate, and the

12 maximum value for standing crop, and Doctor Davis'

13 value of the leaching or the cycling in the system,

14 it would take about-- and we assume that maybe

15 something less than this, the 16 parts per million

16 will really be available, or maybe will only be some

17 fraction, like 12, although this amount was shown to

18 be available-- and assuming that approximately one

19 gram per meter squared per year is buried or

20 assimilated, then it would take about that many

21 years to utilize that excess phosphorus above what

22 the plant can take up, itself.

23 Q. So it's just a straight calculation, I

24 believe, and that's how long it would take?

25 A. Yes, somewhere in that range.



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1 It will be significantly greater than

2 the one to two years that Tom Fontaine reported to

3 the INR board.

4 Q. All right. And in regard to the

5 documents that you reviewed in preparation for this

6 deposition, have you sort of touched on the pieces

7 of each of those in your explanation to me, in your

8 opinion that you--

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That you-- that the Davis portion is

11 this 80 percent release into the water of

12 phosphorus, that would have been the portion of the

13 Davis document that was the main point that you--

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That you pulled from that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Reddy's-- the various data that you

18 have been referring to?

19 A. Yes, and there's one other document that

20 I just now thought of, that I reviewed, and that is

21 the minutes of the board-- probably the South

22 Florida Water Management Board, the workshop or a

23 board meeting, dealing with the report on the ENR

24 from Tom Fontaine.

25 Q. I-- that's one of those meetings I



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1 missed.

2 What was the date of that,

3 approximately?

4 A. I don't recall.

5 Q. Has it been in the last several months?

6 A. I have only had the document for the

7 last few weeks.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. I think it was-- let me see. It may

10 have been a meeting of the middle of last year,

11 something like that.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. I have the document in my possession, if

14 you would like to--

15 Q. The minutes of that meeting?

16 A. The--

17 Q. Well, part of the minutes of that

18 meeting. I would like to see those, if you reviewed

19 them in preparation for this depo.

20 I would like to see the minutes of that

21 meeting, if you would bring those tomorrow.

22 Anything else you can recall?

23 A. No, but obviously, you know, as we go

24 along, I'm--

25 Q. Well, my purpose is to understand what



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1 you think and how you came about it, and what you

2 have relied on.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That's what we're here for.

5 What I would like to do, and I invite

6 you to help me in the best way you can-- the League

7 has provided two designations of what you will

8 testify about.

9 They have provided a pretrial disclosure

10 of issues and witnesses, which I assume you have

11 seen--

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that they have also provided a

14 disclosure of expert and fact witnesses, of

15 petitioners, Florida Sugar Cane League-- well, this

16 is U.S. Sugar and-- has it changed, Mr. Kobelinski?

17 Do you believe that's different

18 (indicating)?

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: I actually believe there

20 has perhaps been a slight change to Doctor

21 Patrick's.

22 Have you got the more recent one?

23 Yes. He has the more recent one right

24 there (indicating).

25 MS. PONZOLI: No. That's what I have.



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1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Okay.

2 MS. PONZOLI: I have the--

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: This has--

4 MS. PONZOLI: I have issues and

5 witnesses.

6 I want where it's just Doctor Patrick,

7 alone (indicating).

8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Do you want that one?

9 MR. NETTLETON: No. I was looking for

10 it, and--

11 MR. KOBELINSKI: He can tell you what

12 he's testifying about, but I don't know that I have

13 it here, then.

14 BY MS. PONZOLI:

15 Q. All right. Why don't you look at this,

16 Doctor Patrick, that was previously when Flo-Sun was

17 in the litigation, and we believe there may be some

18 changes in that, and this is the disclosure of

19 issues and witnesses, and what I want to do is I

20 want to go through and get what you're going to say

21 on-- of each of these dominant areas, your opinion,

22 and I want to know which of the documents and data

23 support that opinion, and then we'll talk about it

24 in more detail, you know, downstream, but I would

25 invite you to look at those and see which is the



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1 better description for you to work from

2 (indicating).

3 A. These are rather parallel documents; is

4 that correct (indicating)?

5 Q. Well, I found some witnesses who

6 wouldn't agree with that, but--

7 A. Well, I haven't--

8 Q. You would have to tell me.

9 A. What response to do you want from me?

10 Do you want to deal with these one at a

11 time?

12 Q. Yes, sir, but I want to-- if it's easier

13 for to you deal with a disclosure of issues and

14 witnesses, I'm happy to do it that way, which is

15 this one, or I'm happy to deal with it in this

16 regard, if that's easier for to you-- which is

17 better for you.

18 A. I don't have a preference, and since

19 you're asking the questions, you choose the

20 document.

21 Q. Okay. Well, let's start with the more

22 generic ones, because that may be easier.

23 Are we looking at the same thing?

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Well, I'm on page eight,

25 and you're on page seven.



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1 Maybe you have the most recent one.

2 MS. PONZOLI: This says the same thing.

3 Oh, supplemental. What is the

4 difference?

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I don't know.

6 MS. PONZOLI: Who writes this stuff?

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: I don't know.

8 Who reads this stuff?

9 I mean, I haven't reviewed it-- as far

10 as the subject matter, it looks pretty much the

11 same.

12 MS. PONZOLI: Okay.

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: I don't know why I

14 qualified it pretty much, but it looks like the

15 same.

16 MS. PONZOLI: All right.

17 BY MS. PONZOLI:

18 Q. Doctor Patrick, let's start with the

19 subject matter of your expected testimony, and they

20 have soil chemistry.

21 A. Would you choose some document for me to

22 follow?

23 Q. That's this one.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: Excuse me, Doctor.

25 THE WITNESS: Okay.



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1 BY MS. PONZOLI:

2 Q. Wait. Let's just-- I'm really happy to

3 do this a number of different ways. You're right.

4 I have to ask the questions, but if it's easier for

5 you, I'll ask you, Doctor Patrick, I know you're

6 going to offer certain testimony at trial; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell me those areas that you

10 believe that you will be testifying to at trial, and

11 let me just list them, and then we'll go back

12 through them?

13 A. Okay. I'll do that.

14 Some of these we already covered.

15 Q. Sure.

16 A. I will deal with phosphorus accretion

17 and vertical distribution in soils of water

18 conservation area 2-A, water conservation area

19 three, and water conservation area one.

20 I will deal with cesium dating and

21 accretion, determination of phosphorus, largely in

22 2-A, in the transect south of structure 10-C.

23 I will also deal with cesium dating to a

24 more limited extent, in the Loxahatchee, in my west

25 to east transect.



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1 I will deal with the redox potential

2 measurement in 2-A and three.

3 I will deal with the evaluations of the

4 STAs, proposed STAs, for removal of phosphorus, as I

5 have discussed with you in some detail.

6 I'm concerned with the Everglades

7 nutrient removal research program and its

8 effectiveness in removal of phosphorus.

9 And I will be concerned with phosphorus

10 removal procedures at or near the farm level,

11 particularly those procedures that will utilize the

12 underlying lime rock in the Everglades area to

13 remove the phosphorus.

14 I think that covers the areas that I

15 anticipate that I will testify regarding.

16 Perhaps other areas will, you know, as

17 we go through discussion-- I'll recall.

18 Q. Right. Let me just walk us through each

19 of those, so the list we work from is complete,

20 and--

21 You have covered soil chemistry, is that

22 right, in this list you've given me?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Water quality?

25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. Phosphorus concentrations?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Phosphorus uptake rates?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How about BMPs?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That's on the farm?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The--

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the STAs you have mentioned?

12 A. Right, and the-- another area is the

13 discussion-- a general discussion of the soils and

14 the ways that the soils in the Everglades area will

15 form, and the general characteristics of those.

16 So that's another area that I anticipate

17 we'll testify on.

18 Q. Does that go to the removal capacity of

19 the farm located-- farm land located-- STAs, versus

20 the capacity of water conservation area soils for

21 take up of phosphorus and holding it?

22 A. Not really.

23 It could, but it would probably cover

24 that in my evaluation of the STAs.

25 Q. Just share with me very briefly, what



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1 the relevance of the soil information will be for

2 us.

3 A. As background information, understanding

4 the difference in the soil areas in various parts of

5 the Everglades, which may relate-- which hopefully

6 will relate to their capacity to remove or release

7 phosphorus, their capacity to subside, etcetera.

8 Q. That was what I would-- I'm sorry. I

9 didn't put it down clearly enough. That is really

10 what I mean, that their characteristics went to

11 their capacity to remove phosphorus. I just--

12 A. Right.

13 Q. I just want to go through this long,

14 long list they made for you.

15 They said you're going to testify on

16 standards, programs and strategies enunciated in the

17 SWIM Plan will preserve, protect or restore the

18 natural Everglades hyroperiod?

19 A. You read it pretty fast.

20 Q. I'm sorry. What you will see, Doctor

21 Patrick-- I think I have gone through the document

22 produced by the League, and they have given issues

23 that will be testified to, and then your name should

24 be highlighted every time they listed you as one of

25 the testifying people.



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1 A. But the statement you just read, I

2 didn't see it written here--

3 Q. Is it number one? It should be number

4 one (indicating).

5 A. That's it.

6 Q. It should be number one.

7 Did I read it wrong?

8 Whether and to what extent, the

9 standards, programs and strategies enunciated in the

10 SWIM plan, will protect, will preserve, protect or

11 restore the Everglades natural hydroperiod.

12 Do you understand you're giving

13 testimony on that?

14 A. Yes, in at least an indirect way, in

15 regard to the-- the effect of STAs in--

16 Q. That goes to the effectiveness of STAs?

17 That's what that would fit into, what you explained

18 to me?

19 A. Yes, as I read this now. That's what I

20 recall now.

21 Q. You do believe that you'll be giving

22 testimony on that?

23 A. Either-- if not in a direct way, but in

24 an indirect way.

25 Q. And in the second one, rather than my



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1 just reading it into the record, the second one on

2 page three, why don't you read that and tell me if

3 you, in fact, believe that you're going to be giving

4 testimony on that, and if you think it's subsumed in

5 one of the categories that you covered before, and

6 tell me which one it was, and we won't do it twice.

7 A. (Witness complies.)

8 Yes. I anticipate giving testimony on

9 this, on some aspects of this.

10 Q. Can you identify those aspects for me?

11 A. The major effect is the effect of water

12 depth, as affected by, say, fire and disturbance on

13 the colonization of typha in areas.

14 Q. And is that basically just the ecology

15 of cattail growth?

16 Is that what your testimony will focus

17 on?

18 A. No. Not so much-- I will focus on the

19 measurements that I have taken of water depth, and

20 phosphorus concentration in areas of typha and in

21 adjacent areas of sawgrass, and-- in water

22 conservation area three.

23 Q. Okay. The next one they have listed you

24 for is on page nine, by my notes, existence of

25 alleged water quality violations in the EPA, goes to



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1 the imbalance of natural population--

2 Have I skipped one?

3 It looks like there's some highlighting

4 I may have skipped.

5 Did I skip nine?

6 MR. NETTLETON: I'm sorry, on eight.

7 MS. PONZOLI: I'm sorry. I stand

8 corrected.

9 On page seven, your name is listed on

10 testifying as to excessive over-drainage caused by

11 the federal project, and not addressed in the SWIM

12 Plan, has resulted in more vegetative and ecosystem

13 damage and nutrients.

14 Do you think you'll be testifying on

15 that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Number nine, that-- I don't see that as

18 fitting in with what you told me before.

19 Don't you think that's sort of a

20 separate category of testimony?

21 A. Yes, it is, and it's an area I missed in

22 my list to you.

23 Q. That's why I'm doing this. That's

24 okay.

25 A. Yes. I will testify as to the effect of



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1 overdrainage on ecosystem damage in the Everglades.

2 Q. Let me be clear, Doctor Patrick. It

3 seems to me from reading these various issues, that

4 in some ways, it's expected that you will give

5 something of a general overview, is that right, of

6 what's happened in the Everglades?

7 A. No.

8 Q. It's pretty specific?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The next one I have for you on page

11 eight, is number nine, whether flooding or excess

12 pooling caused by the federal project but not

13 addressed in the SWIM Plan--

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Has caused more vegetative and ecosystem

16 changes than nutrient.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware of ten, whether malaleuca

19 infestation and--

20 A. I'm sorry?

21 Q. Issue number ten.

22 A. Sorry.

23 Q. Whether malaleuca infestation and

24 propagation--

25 MR. NETTLETON: He's not listed on that.



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1 MS. PONZOLI: That's one you don't have

2 to testify on.

3 THE WITNESS: I was going to say, I have

4 got some reading up to do.

5 BY MS. PONZOLI:

6 Q. Okay. Number 11, whether, where, and to

7 what extent, an imbalance of natural populations of

8 aquatic flora and fauna exists within the waters of

9 the EPA, as determined in the SWIM Plan, and, if so,

10 the causes of that imbalance of aquatic flora and

11 fauna at specific locations.

12 A. Yes. Now that I understand it, yes.

13 I'll be testifying on that, yes.

14 Q. Number 12, again, you're listed on

15 dominance of nuisance species exists within the

16 waters of the EPA, as determined in the SWIM Plan,

17 and if so, the causes of that dominance of nuisance

18 species at specific locations.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the next one I have for you is on

21 page 21, number 25.

22 A. That's good.

23 Q. We're getting there.

24 Short-term and long term phosphorus

25 desorption and uptake within the STAs.



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1 I think you have already explained to

2 me--

3 A. You're talking about what number?

4 Q. Number 25.

5 MR. NETTLETON: You have missed some.

6 Number 21.

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: That's what I thought.

8 MS. PONZOLI: Oh, number 21. Someone

9 skipped 21 for me.

10 THE WITNESS: Actually, it's on page 18,

11 item number 21 (indicating).

12 MS. PONZOLI: I don't have it. They

13 didn't give it to me.

14 So it's page 18, number 21, and what is

15 the issue?

16 MR. KOBELINSKI: Whether the STA program,

17 as set out in the SWIM Plan, is practicable,

18 reasonable and will receive the statutory

19 restoration goals of restoring water quality and

20 hydroperiod.

21 THE WITNESS: I think you will probably

22 realize I would testify on that.

23 BY MS. PONZOLI:

24 Q. And the next one I have is 25, that-- is

25 that right? Is there one on 24?



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1 A. 24.

2 Q. Oh, good.

3 What is 24?

4 A. Whether the District has correctly

5 determined the proper size or need for STAs.

6 Q. You are going to be testifying on that,

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Now you can go to the

10 one you had.

11 BY MS. PONZOLI:

12 Q. The short term and long term phosphorus

13 desorption and uptake within the STAs.

14 A. I already have.

15 Q. You are going to be testifying on that?

16 A. I already have.

17 Q. I have you listed for number 27, also,

18 which includes the BMPs, which you indicated you

19 would be testifying on.

20 A. I think-- did you get 26?

21 Q. No. I didn't get that one, either.

22 This whole trial is going to be you,

23 Doctor Patrick.

24 Whether the STAs, as designed, will

25 achieve the required phosphorus load reductions and



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1 the long term total phosphorus outflow

2 concentrations of 50 PPB, and you will be testifying

3 on that, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then are we up to 27?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The farm BMPs, which you will be

8 testifying on?

9 A. No.

10 Q. No, you won't?

11 A. Well, I'm not listed.

12 Q. Aren't you?

13 I'm telling you, they really messed this

14 up for me. I just have you highlighted on the next

15 page, but it's not the-- you're not testifying on

16 27, but you are on on-farm treatments?

17 A. Yes. I'll be testifying on some of the

18 aspects of this, but I think it's covered in other,

19 you know--

20 Q. What is the next one, since I'm missing

21 another page?

22 A. 29, item 29.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. KOBELINSKI: On page 23.

25 MS. PONZOLI: And what is that?



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1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Whether the STA program

2 required by the SWIM Plan, arbitrarily ignores

3 better locations for STAs, the need for larger or

4 smaller STAs, and a linkage between STAs and

5 hydroperiod improvement, which the District is aware

6 of and has had outside contractors evaluate.

7 BY MS. PONZOLI:

8 Q. And you'll be testifying on that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And number 30, whether the District is

11 at present, able to determine or has correctly

12 determined all design criteria for the STAs.

13 A. Obviously.

14 Q. And I think that's it.

15 Do you have anymore?

16 A. Yes, 31.

17 Q. Oh, gee. Whether it is premature to

18 design and construct STAs, given the present level

19 of uncertainty surrounding both the STAs design

20 criteria and underlying factors that will determine

21 STA performance, and the lack of any comparable

22 project on field result.

23 You'll be testifying on that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are there anymore in your list?



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1 A. I don't know.

2 Let's see.

3 Q. Once you hit the adverse witnesses,

4 you're not listed anymore.

5 A. Are we the adverse witnesses-- yes.

6 Okay.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. All right.

9 Q. What I want to do, it might-- you might

10 save us some time, Doctor Patrick, if you could just

11 spend a minute with your documents, and sort of put

12 them in sort of rational order for me.

13 I want to go through each of those areas

14 that you'll be offering testimony on.

15 It's fairly extensive. I think you'll

16 agree with me on that, and I want to know your

17 opinions, if you haven't already given them to me

18 today-- I want to know your opinions, and I want to

19 know what documents and what data you are using to

20 support those opinions, what you are relying upon,

21 and so-- I think the documents in front of me, some

22 grouping of them, will go to the refuge or 2-A, or

23 whatever, and it would go faster, if you don't go--

24 if you go off the record and kind of go through

25 them, and say these are the ones that support the



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1 STAs, and these support the refuge, whatever, and I

2 know you don't like to be pinned on, on what you

3 relied upon, but--

4 A. I will do it any way you want to.

5 It would be much easier for me if you

6 ask me the list, and you ask me what my opinions

7 are, and if I developed an opinion as of this point

8 in time, and what I rely upon, because that's a

9 different breakdown than erosion breakdown of

10 Loxahatchee, 2-A, STA, and BMP--

11 Q. That's fine.

12 A. I will do it any way you want to. I

13 would suggest that would be easier for me, and maybe

14 save some time.

15 Q. Okay. The first one, you sort of--

16 phosphorus accretion-- if I'm misstating them, it's

17 not on purpose. You can correct me, please for-- I

18 have phosphorus accretion, vertical distribution in

19 soils of water conservation 2-A, three and one, is

20 the first area you will offer opinions.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I would like to know what are the

23 opinions you'll be offering on that.

24 A. Well, I covered part of that in my early

25 part of my deposition, but I'll go through the whole



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1 thing, so it will be comprehensive.

2 First let's take 2-A.

3 I did a phosphorus study in a transect

4 south of 2-A, south of 10-C and 2-A, to provide an

5 independent evaluation of the accretion values,

6 accretion rates of phosphorus in this area, which

7 had already been done independently by Doctors Reddy

8 and Richardson.

9 And I used similar techniques that they

10 had used for sample of the cores, slicing the cores

11 into segments, analyzing the phosphorus, and dating

12 the accretion rate, using cesium 137 techniques,

13 which my laboratory developed three years ago.

14 And based on that, to-- in determining

15 the accretion rate in-- along this transect, and

16 which values were presented to you in this

17 material.

18 If we can, you could take a look at the

19 table.

20 Q. That would be nice if you locate the

21 table. Thank you.

22 There's more data at the end, so I don't

23 know--

24 A. I--

25 Q. Those are all soils descriptions, and I



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1 think these are all articles, I think those-- these

2 are all articles, so it must be in that data in that

3 pile.

4 A. This one?

5 Q. No. Here's the pile of data here,

6 Doctor Patrick.

7 A. Okay. There's a summary table that was

8 provided. I have not seen here-- it here yet

9 (indicating).

10 Q. I don't recall seeing it, either, but

11 that doesn't mean it isn't there.

12 This just may be put together--

13 sometimes when things are duplicated, they get

14 duplicated in odd ways, and it gets stapled to the

15 back of something else.

16 A. Oh, here it is. Okay.

17 MS. PONZOLI: Let's make it an exhibit. I

18 have that one (indicating).

19 THE WITNESS: It was stuck behind a map

20 of the Loxahatchee, which is-- it doesn't belong to,

21 since-- that's 2-A (indicating).

22 MS. PONZOLI: Off the record

23 (Discussion off the record.)

24 BY MS. PONZOLI:

25 Q. Is that it?



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1 A. Yes.

2 MS. PONZOLI: I would like to have this

3 marked as an exhibit (indicating).

4 (The document referred to

5 was thereupon marked as

6 Patrick Exhibit Number

7 Two for Identification,

8 a copy of which is attached

9 hereto.)

10 MR. KOBELINSKI: This is Two, right?

11 MS. PONZOLI: Yes, the accretion rate of

12 phosphorus in a transect south of structure 10-C in

13 water conversation area 2-A.

14 BY MS. PONZOLI:

15 Q. Doctor Richardson, would you identify

16 Patrick Two for us.

17 A. This is Wednesday and this is Patrick.

18 Q. I'm sorry. I have got Richardson and

19 Reddy on the brain.

20 A. That's good.

21 Q. Doctor Patrick, I apologize.

22 With 153 witnesses, I hope you will

23 forgive me.

24 A. That's quite all right. I don't mind

25 being confused with Curtis Richardson. He might



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1 mind, but--

2 Q. Patrick Number Two-- Patrick Number Two,

3 can you identify that, please?

4 A. This is a table showing accretion rates

5 in the phosphorus in the transect south of 10-C, of

6 the water conservation area 2-A (indicating).

7 Q. And this reflects the study that you're

8 taking about?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That you have done?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Would you explain to me--

13 this is the number of samples that you did; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes, in this particular transect.

16 Q. Okay. Did you do more than one

17 transect?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You did one transect.

20 Was this sort of, you went out there and

21 you pulled these samples at a single time, and then

22 you ran these various tests on then, and then you

23 did your analysis and you drew your conclusion from

24 them?

25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. So it was like a single days pooling of

2 cores?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And the date when you pulled

5 these?

6 Do you recall?

7 A. I think this was-- this was 1992, I

8 think.

9 Sorry, this was 1993, last year, and--

10 this is 1994, isn't it?

11 Q. And you are Patrick and I'm still

12 Ponzoli.

13 So when in '93, approximately, would

14 this have been done?

15 A. Oh, I-- let's see. It was-- it must have

16 been in the summer, when-- the water was warm.

17 I don't-- I can provide you with the

18 exact date, and even the time of day, if necessary,

19 but it was probably the summer of '93.

20 Q. Okay. And the depth of the soils, that

21 is measured by the cesium; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This reflects how much phosphorus you

24 found and-- and the charts show us-- you'll have to

25 take me to where in the chart it shows you, how you



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1 figure out how much phosphorus was above that marker

2 in '63.

3 Can you do that (indicating)?

4 A. Yes.

5 First, it-- it might be appropriate to

6 tell you how I determined the '63 surface, since

7 that's the base.

8 Q. Yes, sir.

9 A. Would you like me to do that?

10 Q. Yes, sir.

11 A. If you will notice the figure following

12 the table, it shows what I call a cesium profile.

13 The vertical line is depth, from zero

14 down to 40 centimeters, and the horizontal line is

15 the cesium activity in a unit called microcuries,

16 and this shows a picture at about 25 centimeters,

17 the maximum fallout rate is 25 centimeters.

18 Q. And if I recall correctly, that's a

19 period of time when there were nuclear tests being--

20 A. Yes, that was the year of maximum

21 fallout.

22 Q. And it leaves a marker in the soil?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That you look for?

25 A. Right.



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1 And if you notice the next check, it

2 shows another-- the initials, BP, Bill Patrick, and

3 the ten stands for the sample number from the 10-C

4 structure, so this is the second sample.

5 Five I think is approximately maybe a

6 half mile, a-- maybe a mile-- I don't have a map

7 showing the sample, but such a map is available.

8 Q. Would you provide that, the map?

9 A. Yes, if I'm requested in writing, so

10 I'll be sure to remember it.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. One should-- although a map should be

13 available from Doctor Davis' test, because he's the

14 one that compiles-- these maps, and-- so anyway, a

15 map is readily available for these sample locations.

16 In BP-10 is a little farther, but you'll

17 notice-- the cesium level is still 25 centimeters,

18 okay?

19 Q. Right.

20 A. And then BP-20 is the next, and it is

21 the-- you see a very pronounced maximum layer,

22 representing the '63 level, and that is at 19

23 centimeters below the surface.

24 It's becoming slightly more shallow.

25 And then BP-30 is the maximum-- the



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1 maximum is at 13 and-a-half centimeters below the

2 surface, and BP-40 is the thickness above the '63

3 level or the depths of the '63 level for 40, was

4 seven and-a-half centimeters, and you'll see that

5 value in the table, under-- across from BP-40.

6 BP-50 was the maximum, at three

7 centimeters, so that was the amount of accretion

8 since 1963, and the farthest one way, BP-60, which

9 you would ordinarily expect to be lower, was

10 expectedly higher, there was more accretion, for

11 some reason.

12 This is what you run into in scientific

13 work. Everything doesn't fall right on a nice--

14 Q. Is this one of those outliars, because--

15 we don't look at it?

16 A. You can knock it out, but it's not

17 honest to omit it.

18 Q. So what do you think it means?

19 Is there some anomaly that explains what

20 happened at this particular site?

21 A. I can give you a whole list of possible

22 reasons.

23 Q. Right.

24 A. One, something happened to it very

25 locally, maybe there was some enrichment at that



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1 location, due to animal activity, bird activity,

2 that would have caused--

3 Q. A gator hole or something?

4 A. No, not a gator hole, because these

5 sites were selected uniformly, and a gator hole

6 would have been evident.

7 That's one possibility.

8 Another possibility is that we made a

9 mistake in sectioning this, and maybe got a-- maybe

10 a section from another core mixed in or something

11 like that, or maybe there was some-- something in

12 the phosphorus and analysis-- there was some import,

13 you know, some contamination of phosphorus and it

14 showed up as-- no, sorry. This is the cesium only.

15 Maybe there was a-- maybe the wrong

16 sample was counted in the cesium gamma counter, and

17 so there's a whole list of possibilities.

18 It's almost impossible to see exactly

19 what caused that.

20 The only thing that we do know, is that

21 it doesn't fit the scale.

22 It's very much like Doctor Reddy's

23 outliar at the other end, so-- I can only tell you

24 that it doesn't fit this nice curve, but it's the

25 only one that doesn't fit.



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1 In scientific work, particularly

2 biologic systems, when you have this many data

3 points, it's very likely one or more is not going to

4 be right, smoothly on the line.

5 When I find that happening too much, you

6 can maybe wonder about the analyst, but--

7 Q. We only found it once?

8 A. Right.

9 When you find that the curves are too

10 smooth--

11 Q. Oh, if it's too perfect?

12 A. When I find data that has no warts at

13 all, I become suspicious, so anyway, I was

14 explaining--

15 Q. The Respondent, Intervenors are fond of

16 warts.

17 MR. NETTLETON: I was going to say, you

18 must love our data.

19 THE WITNESS: It's no different. We all

20 use the same techniques, and work with the same

21 system.

22 So that is-- that's the way we determine

23 the depth to the '63 layer.

24 Then it was simply a matter of

25 calculating how much phosphorus occurred above that



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1 zone, for each of those cores, each of those sample

2 sites, and column three, shows the amount of

3 phosphorus, that-- per square meter, above the '63

4 surface.

5 This was based on the phosphorus

6 analysis that are shown in the tables behind these

7 figures.

8 If you will go to the tables--

9 Q. What about one through five?

10 Are they something else, or the same

11 thing?

12 A. No. Those are other locations that we

13 analyzed in the same batch that we analyzed these BP

14 cores.

15 Remember I told you we analyzed other--

16 Q. Right.

17 A. Other parts of water conservation areas

18 two and three, so you'll have to turn on through

19 those, until you get through L-67 and HL-1, to

20 BP-1--

21 Q. I see it.

22 A. BP-10-- in fact, this is the copy that I

23 used for this analysis, see the arrow, the--

24 Q. Yes, sir.

25 A. That is 25.5 centimeters, okay, and so



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1 that-- and so that represents the lower the depth

2 of-- to the '63 level.

3 Q. The 25.5 is the '63 level?

4 A. Well, it was 25, but I may have put a

5 mark here to 25.5-- that is the closest one.

6 That is-- the 25.5 is the slice that

7 goes from 24 to 27, okay?

8 At that time-- these are three

9 centimeter segments.

10 If you'll look at the first one at the

11 top, like, depth, 1.5--

12 Q. Yes, sir.

13 A. That is the mid-point of a three

14 centimeter segment, so anyway, I calculated the

15 amount of phosphorus, and if you'll look over that

16 fourth column, phosphorus, and micrograms per gram,

17 I calculated the amount of phosphorus based on the

18 sum or weighted sum of those averages-- the total

19 amount of phosphorus in that zone, and in grams per

20 meter squared, and it turned out to be 28.8.

21 Q. Tell me, how that-- what the different

22 columns mean.

23 Just go across the top, so I understand

24 those.

25 A. Well, the cores designation.



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1 Q. Right.

2 A. BP-10, you know--

3 Q. Bill Patrick is on that 10-C segment.

4 A. Right. The depth, that is the average

5 depth of each segment.

6 10.5 is the segment from 9 to 12, okay,

7 and so on.

8 Q. Right.

9 A. Okay. The mercury content is in

10 micrograms per kilograms.

11 You can see this is mercury.

12 And-- but the one we're interested in

13 now, is the-- so you have been provided with the

14 mercury.

15 Q. Let me ask you something.

16 Is this the same mercury study that you

17 did, that you were discussing with me this morning?

18 A. The second one?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So would these be the other mercury

22 figures or the other areas that we see on these

23 sheets one through five (indicating)?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If I ask you to identify these areas,



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1 could you do that for me?

2 A. Yes, provide you with a map. Yes.

3 Q. Could you do that?

4 A. Yes. This would be the same map that

5 would have the BP samples on it.

6 If you have deposed Doctor Davis and

7 others, then you would have this map.

8 Anyway, it's readily available.

9 Q. I would appreciate it if you could bring

10 it tomorrow.

11 A. I don't have it in my possession, I

12 believe.

13 Q. They do.

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: We'll try and find it.

15 He never had it-- to we can find it somewhere, or

16 maybe we can have John Davis fax one.

17 MS. PONZOLI: That's fine.

18 THE WITNESS: We have had it.

19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Well, you didn't give it

20 to me with that stack.

21 MS. PONZOLI: I-- off the record.

22 (Off the record discussion.)

23 THE WITNESS: Well, actually this man was

24 not produced by me.

25 BY MS. PONZOLI:



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1 Q. It was produced by Doctor Davis?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I understand.

4 A. So it was not mine to offer.

5 Q. Right.

6 A. How about that?

7 Q. I don't care whether you have it or

8 not. I want to know if they have it.

9 A. Oh, I'm sure they do.

10 Okay. They chose the location of these--

11 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record.

12 (Off the record discussion.) So--

13 BY MS. PONZOLI:

14 Q. All right. You had come up to, I

15 believe, the phosphorus, and I guess-- is that the

16 grams per meter squared per year, also, or--

17 A. No. That's weighted--

18 Q. That's weighted phosphorus?

19 A. Yes, micrograms per gram, or parts per

20 million, and the bulk density, does not have the

21 unit there, but that's grams per cubic centimeter.

22 And the other-- the next column, it's--

23 is for the mercury-- it's in micrograms for each

24 three centimeter segment.

25 Because we were doing this on a volume



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1 basis, see?

2 And the phosphorus is micrograms per

3 three centimeter sections or segments, so that we

4 could add these up, you know, just for our

5 convenience purposes.

6 Q. Right.

7 A. We just had the computer do this, so

8 that's the explanation of those headings.

9 Q. I appreciate that.

10 Is it possible to return to pages one

11 through five, and can you look at least for me, the

12 locations-- I know you don't have the map for me,

13 but do you remember where S-9 was, 2-A, 2-B, 2-C,

14 the location of that (indicating)?

15 A. Okay. Nine is a structure along canals

16 in three, and I really can't pinpoint it for you.

17 These were selected-- these areas were

18 selected for-- as I told you, in consultation with

19 Doctor Davis, to-- for several purposes, to look at

20 areas where there was some inflow from the canals,

21 in that case, and-- in some other cases, we went

22 into areas where there was typha, and took samples

23 there, to see if they were enriched, if these areas

24 were enriched in phosphorus, or to see what he-- and

25 also to see what the water depth was.



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1 We wanted to maybe explain why there was

2 typha in these particular locations, so we selected

3 these sites for a number of reasons, and some were

4 just selected at random, to give a general idea of

5 the conditions in water conservation area three, so

6 I can't answer specifically, each one of these

7 sample locations, but they are all taken for that

8 purpose.

9 And the-- and those explanations are

10 available, but I don't-- Doctor Davis has the field

11 data on that, and that could be provided to you, the

12 exact location and the vegetation at that location.

13 Q. Are you going to offer any testimony on

14 Doctor Patrick-- Doctor Patrick, based upon this

15 sampling effort regarding phosphorus and vegetation

16 and perhaps water depth and typha enrichment?

17 Any portion of those?

18 A. Yes, probably-- certainly I will on the

19 phosphorus, and perhaps on the relationship between

20 the water depth and the phosphorus and the plant

21 community, both in these samples, and in other

22 samples taken in the northern part of three.

23 They were taken at a later date.

24 Q. So all the S-9's, will be transects that

25 have been run off of the S-9 structure or not?



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1 A. No. The only transect that I have is

2 that listed as BP, which is south of 10-C.

3 The other samples are randomly selected

4 locations.

5 Q. They are not transects?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. And as I recall, we were discussing the

9 transects south of 10-C, the BP samples, and I was

10 going through the method that I used to get the

11 accretion rate. We'll return to that, and

12 I'm returning to this portion separately. Either

13 way, I didn't want to lose the continuity of this,

14 so--

15 Q. Right. I agree.

16 A. So if we go back to the original table,

17 and you'll see you learned how I calculated column

18 three, the total phosphorus above the '63 surface.

19 I had it in-- in a weight basis, and

20 then I had the density, so I could calculate it on a

21 volume basis, and I calculated-- I took that volume

22 down to the '63 depth, and then calculated the

23 amount of phosphorus above that '63 zone, and it was

24 these amounts of phosphorus that you see here

25 (indicating).



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1 This in his grams per meter squared.

2 Column four, then, is just-- this amount

3 of phosphorus, grams per meter squared, for the

4 year, for the period since '63.

5 In other words, I explained down here,

6 at the bottom, four, total phosphorus accreted per

7 year determined by dividing the total amount of

8 phosphorus above the 1963 surface, by the number of

9 years between 1963 and the year of sampling.

10 That would be up to '93, so that would

11 be 30 years. That is sort of an average way of doing

12 it.

13 One year may have had a lot of

14 accretion, and the other year, very little,

15 depending on rainfall-- it might be more precise to

16 say average amount of accretion per year. That

17 would be--

18 Q. All right. The BP charts that follow on

19 page seven, what are those (indicating)?

20 A. Are we referring to the table on page--

21 Q. Yes, sir, I'm sorry.

22 We just talked about the table on page

23 six, but we also have more data on seven, that--

24 A. Well, table six only dealt with the

25 BP-10 location.



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1 Q. Right.

2 A. On page seven, there's a BP-20 location,

3 done the same way.

4 Q. Right.

5 A. And the BP-30 and the BP-40, and then

6 the next page, the BP-50 and the BP-60, and the BP-5

7 is in here somewhere.

8 It somehow or another got out of place.

9 Q. These are still on that transect going

10 south?

11 A. Yes, exactly.

12 It's calculated on the first table that

13 we talked about.

14 All this is the data that ends up in the

15 phosphorus accretion rate (indicating).

16 Q. I see. I understand, then.

17 You--

18 A. We had to take all this data to

19 calculate.

20 We had to take the cesium data and the

21 phosphorus data, to calculate the accretion rate.

22 Q. All right. The BP is all part of this

23 one (indicating)?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is there more to that, that I need to--



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1 A. No.

2 Q. Then I guess what I would like to do,

3 identify some of the other data that appears here,

4 because-- let me just ask you this.

5 When we-- before we did the--

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: You want to use the

7 Bates number?

8 MS. PONZOLI: Yes, I will.

9 BY MS. PONZOLI:

10 Q. When we look at these bar graphs,

11 starting on 132681-- is that a different way of

12 demonstrating the information, these bar graphs?

13 A. 281, yes.

14 Q. 281, yes, sir.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that simply a different method of

17 demonstrating the same information?

18 A. Yes. It's calculated in micrograms per

19 cubic centimeters.

20 Q. We're looking at a different visual

21 presentation of the same information?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That goes all the way-- is there

24 anything new that appears--

25 MR. KOBELINSKI: '87.



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1 BY MS. PONZOLI:

2 Q. Is '87 different, because it has--

3 THE WITNESS: Well, you might-- if you've

4 asking what is new-- you'll look at '87, and--

5 BY MS. PONZOLI:

6 Q. Is there any information-- repeated in--

7 repeated values, close to the original.

8 Was there a repeat of the testing?

9 A. Yes, of the analysis.

10 Q. Of the analysis?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What you had split or something?

13 A. No. We took another sample, to repeat

14 the analysis.

15 Q. And then they came out, close but not

16 identical.

17 Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is there some margin of error that's

20 considered acceptable?

21 A. Yes.

22 I-- phosphorus is rather easy to

23 analyze, and most laboratories, all of the ones that

24 I have seen involved in this project, are-- have,

25 you know, good routine phosphorus analysis, Reddy,



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1 Richardson, and even Patrick, so there's a-- little

2 doubt about the analysis.

3 It might be well-- you asked me what was

4 new, and that's such an open question, I know my

5 attorney won't like me to answer such an open-ended

6 question, but I would like to point out, if you look

7 at BP-40 and BP-50, which are pristine--

8 Q. Yes, sir.

9 A. Let's look at BP-40. That's a rather

10 unimpacted area far enough down.

11 You see here a characteristic of areas

12 where a nutrient is limited.

13 You see that there's a large amount of

14 phosphorus in the surface layer, and the similar

15 thing as 50, and we are on down through where

16 there's no impact, and what happens is-- what we're

17 looking at here, and I think it's good to keep in

18 mind, because this is the kind of thing that is

19 going to happen in the STAs, exceed those nutrients

20 loaded-- plant pull phosphorus up from the root

21 zone, and then take it up to the plant, and it

22 decomposes, and so there's always--

23 Q. Right.

24 A. You see, when I see this, there's

25 phosphorus coming in here, this year, when you see



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1 this, and--

2 Q. Right.

3 A. But without exception, you'll find areas

4 where there's no possibility of new phosphorus

5 coming in, where the phosphorus has been mined and

6 translated up, and-- the surface always has an

7 accumulation of phosphorus.

8 Q. So in other words, even in a pristine

9 area that everyone would agree was pristine, you

10 might still see this type of curve with higher

11 phosphorus at the top?

12 A. It's not a matter of might. You will,

13 in--

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. You will, in every case.

16 Q. I didn't mean to be argumentative about

17 it. I might have some expert on my side, that might

18 have a different opinion.

19 You're saying that is pretty universally

20 accepted?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I would like to return to the other data

23 reflected here, that was part of that sampling

24 effort.

25 These-- page 1316267, reflects these



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1 various sites. It will be on the map that we need to

2 obtain from Doctor Davis; is that right

3 (indicating)?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And was any similar analysis done or--

6 such as reflected on the top page of Patrick Two?

7 Was a similar analysis done for--

8 A. No.

9 Q. As the amount of--

10 A. No, because you must have the cesium

11 profile as well.

12 Q. And you didn't do cesium for any of

13 those areas?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Then may I ask you what the purposes

16 were for these data collections.

17 A. To see what the general phosphorus

18 levels are-- level was in the system, because we

19 know what the average phosphorus is in impacted

20 enriched areas, and background areas, and-- to

21 determine what the phosphorus and the mercury would

22 be in these particular areas.

23 Q. And you have given me the summary of the

24 mercury findings, have you not, this morning?

25 A. Yes, in a general way.



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1 Q. You do see some very significant

2 differences in the numbers.

3 Look on page one, the S9-2C numbers.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. We have something from 377 up to 1780.

6 Is there a significance in that, Doctor

7 Patrick?

8 A. It seems to me that-- that surface is

9 unusually high in mercury, much higher than most of

10 the others.

11 Q. You don't have any significant

12 interpretation of that?

13 A. No.

14 I don't have any explanation, why that

15 one is higher.

16 It may have been-- that location, since

17 it was three different-- four different segments, or

18 five-- one, two, three, four, five-- it's likely not

19 an error, so for some reason, there was mercury at

20 that-- elevated at that site.

21 Q. But if you look at S9-3A where we have

22 1,270, versus 216 further down-- would you consider

23 that an outliar?

24 A. That could be, although it's not that

25 much different from 900 and 850, above and below



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1 that, so the mercury content in that area is-- that

2 may be a little high, but it's not that far out of

3 reason.

4 Q. Just looking down those columns, Doctor

5 Patrick, on mercury, like the 3-A site--

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And taking the depth--

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. To some extent, it follows your pattern

10 where you said you'll see phosphorus on the surface

11 for the reasons we discussed this morning,

12 decreasing as you go down--

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When we get down to 43.5 and 36.5

15 centimeters, do you have an explanation of why it

16 goes back up again?

17 A. There are several possible

18 explanations.

19 There could have been a fire some

20 hundreds of years ago, when this area was exposed at

21 the surface, in the last century or so, and this

22 concentrated the mercury.

23 This is a-- this is an area that, at

24 that depth, 50 centimeters or down close to 50

25 centimeters, this is a depth that hasn't been



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1 exposed to the surface for some hundreds of years,

2 so a lot of things happen naturally in a-- in the

3 Everglades, that-- drying, fires, that can

4 concentrates a-- element in a certain zone, so

5 that's not to strange.

6 I would say that S9-3C on page two--

7 S9-3C, tends to sort of represent what we generally

8 find, if you'll get through all of these-- it's a

9 little easier at the source, and when you get down,

10 you get to a value of 100 to 150 parts per billion,

11 so that's about a tenth part per million-- that's

12 almost background-- it's background level for

13 surface conditions in that range.

14 Q. Is the 150?

15 A. Well, it could be up to 200 parts per

16 billion, in that range of surface sediment and soils

17 and all, have some mercury in them, but I think what

18 we're looking at here, is the same thing they said

19 in the Upper Great Lakes area, in marshes.

20 You see an increase in mercury, in the

21 last, approximately 100 years.

22 If you go down to the, about the 16 or

23 18 centimeter depth, you're back down to about 150,

24 and at 150-- and you'll see that in a number of

25 places.



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1 Then you see S9-3B, where you see some

2 pretty high mercury throughout that area, pretty

3 unusual places, so that may have been an area that

4 was subject to fires, and mercury tends to

5 accumulate in the ash, to some extent.

6 Q. You sort of indicated that somewhere

7 between the 16.5 and the 19.5, was the hundredth

8 year mark?

9 A. Well, that's just a-- an approximation.

10 These areas are not-- these are northern

11 enriched areas, certainly aren't building peat at

12 the same rate, and, in fact, it's been contended

13 that during the life of the Everglades, the marsh

14 grows at a rate of a centimeter a year, one

15 millimeter a year, so when you use that, 106-- that

16 would be something like 106 years, you know, so--

17 Q. All right. Let me ask you this: On this

18 insufficient samples for phosphorus--

19 A. Yes. They appear to have happened at

20 certain locations, but not at other locations.

21 Is that just a sampling error in how

22 they were pulled, and you couldn't get-- when you

23 see a profile like that, that meant that mercury was

24 our primary concern, and we maybe didn't have enough

25 samples or-- save enough samples for phosphorus.



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1 Q. Oh, you used it up in your mercury

2 testing?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. I see what you're saying.

5 A. Mercury takes more sampling than

6 phosphorus for analysis.

7 Q. And then the L-67 would be the-- along

8 the L-67, I assume whenever those sites were chosen?

9 A. Yes.

10 Some of those sites, as I recall, you

11 asked me why we had done some sites--

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. There was an area between the two canals

14 and L-67, an area that I think was restricted from

15 any water flow from outside forces.

16 We wanted to see what the phosphorus

17 level was inside that, and there were some other

18 areas in the general areas of L-67, that had big,

19 healthy stands of typha, cattails, and we sampled

20 those.

21 Q. Did you find any areas were what you

22 considered low enrichment, but healthy, dense stands

23 of typha?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was there-- was every typha stand, in an



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1 enriched area?

2 A. Although I did some studies on the parts

3 of three-- in typha and in sawgrass areas, and the

4 typha was characterized by deeper water, and

5 obviously a burning disturbance, but also higher

6 phosphorus.

7 So it's almost impossible in this-- in

8 one of the real problems in this whole controversy,

9 is to separate the effects of water depth and

10 phosphorus on the establishment of typha, because

11 where you see-- where you see increased water depth,

12 you also see increased phosphorus.

13 Q. The two go together?

14 A. Well, if there's some disturbance that

15 increased inundation, that-- creates very anaerobic

16 conditions in the soil, then those conditions,

17 themselves, as my-- as my data, and Diaz's data and

18 Reddy's data show, cause the release of phosphorus,

19 and so if increased phosphorus is necessary for

20 typha, then increased flooding gives you that, so

21 it's hard to know if it's-- it's almost impossible

22 to separate out the fact of the flooding depth and

23 the nutrient level.

24 In fact, just as a volunteer statement,

25 not in response to the question--



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1 This is significant. It's something that

2 you need to know.

3 My institute obtained a grant of a

4 quarter of million dollars from the USDA to examine

5 that very problem, you know, on a competitive grant

6 basis, and Doctor Reddy is collaborating with us on

7 that.

8 Q. When did this occur?

9 A. Last year, I think, we got the grant.

10 Q. And you are studying the phenomena of

11 increased depth of water causes increased

12 phosphorus?

13 A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way.

14 We're studying the increased anaerobic

15 decreases, versus the nutrient level of the relative

16 ability of typha and caladium to utilize those

17 (indicating).

18 Q. Do you have a copy of that that you

19 could provide me with, Doctor Patrick?

20 Do you have with you on this trip?

21 A. No.

22 That's a public document. You can get

23 it.

24 Q. I can ask my client for it.

25 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record.



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1 (Off the record discussion.)

2 BY MR. PATRICK:

3 Q. Doctor Patrick, I'm just--

4 A. I was getting sleepy, so--

5 Off the record

6 (Discussion off the record.)

7 BY MS. PONZOLI:

8 Q. I just want to get straight on the

9 record, Doctor Patrick, before we take a break,

10 exactly what my client has paid you to do in the

11 Everglades, in regard to water depth disturbance and

12 phosphorus.

13 A. Doctor Delaune from my institute--

14 Q. How do you spell it?

15 A. Delaune, and Doctor Pezeshki from my

16 institute, and Doctor Reddy from the University of

17 Florida and I, submitted a proposal to the U.S.

18 Department of Agriculture, competitive grant

19 program, to look at the relative effects of

20 anaerobiosis and nutrients on typha and caladium

21 species.

22 Q. And the water depth fits in with the

23 anaerobic conditions, right?

24 A. Well, water condition-- anaerobic

25 conditions can be caused by deep water that's



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1 continuously on the land, where it is-- where it

2 doesn't drain.

3 Q. Can you tell me-- you said it was a

4 quarter of a million dollar grant, and what will be

5 the time frame you will study it, and where?

6 A. A three year study.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. We will do growth chamber study at the

9 Wetland Biology Institute, and Doctor Reddy will be

10 doing some field studies at IFAS, University of

11 Florida.

12 A. I'm not the principal investigator of

13 this project. Doctor Delaune is the principal

14 investigator, and he wrote the proposal.

15 Q. What is the second name?

16 It started with a P.

17 A. P-e-z-e-s-h-k-i.

18 Q. What is the hypothesis of this study?

19 A. Well, the hypothesis is that these

20 species may respond differently to anaerobiosis and

21 nutrient, that typha may be more tolerant of

22 anaerobic conditions, than is caladium, and if so,

23 this accounts for its occurrence in deeper water and

24 possibly its occurrence in water conservation areas

25 that have been inundated for long periods of time,



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1 thereby disturbed.

2 Q. And in a natural corollary of that,

3 would be that it would not necessarily be the

4 elevated nutrients that were causing the typha

5 expansion, but these other factors?

6 A. That's possible. We would do it with

7 and without the nutrients, in order to determine--

8 but you're just getting the study.

9 Q. I think I heard you accurately before,

10 but-- you did say that you had not at present, found

11 an area of dense typha, that did not have elevated

12 nutrient.

13 Was that accurate?

14 A. In the northern part of three.

15 I don't recall what the situation was

16 here, for--

17 Q. Meaning you are in 2-A?

18 A. When I say here, in these samples that

19 we're-- that we're evaluating here now.

20 The nine-- what are those-- the 9C, the

21 samples in 3-A, the S-9 and the 681 and 664-- I

22 don't recall that relationship in those.

23 I haven't reviewed that in some time.

24 So it may be that we have areas of deep

25 water and cattails, but without having high



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1 phosphorus.

2 Q. All right. Is there vegetation data that

3 matches up with this phosphorus?

4 A. Yes, general vegetation.

5 Q. Who did that general vegetation data?

6 A. Doctor Davis.

7 Q. Will you be testifying from that?

8 A. I'm sure I will.

9 Q. Okay. I really need that, Mr.

10 Kobelinski.

11 I don't, you know-- for me to go find

12 it, however, among Davis' documents, it's just not

13 going to work.

14 I need it with Doctor Patrick, and I

15 need the Richardson, also, so I ask you to please

16 see what you can do about providing them tomorrow.

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: I--

18 MS. PONZOLI: I don't need for you to

19 respond. I'm just putting my request on the

20 record. Let's take a break.

21 Let's go off the record.

22 (Thereupon a recess was taken

23 in the deposition, after which

24 the deposition continued as follows:)

25 BY MS. PONZOLI:



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1 Q. Doctor Patrick, are you aware of where

2 Doctor Reddy is doing his field work in the

3 Everglades on behalf of USDA?

4 A. No, I'm not.

5 Actually, as I indicated, Doctor Delaune

6 is the principal investigator on this proposal.

7 In fact, he wrote the proposal and made

8 all the arrangements, so-- and I don't really know

9 what he's worked out on Doctor Reddy.

10 But Doctor Reddy is collaborating on

11 this, and he's getting part of the grant to do that,

12 and it's my understanding that he's-- that I will be

13 doing some field work, whether that will be small

14 plot work at Gainesville, or working in the--

15 Q. You don't know it's--

16 A. I don't know much about this.

17 Haven't kept one on this, because--

18 Q. But did you feel compelled to mention

19 it?

20 A. I wanted to mention it, to let you know

21 I feel how important this problem is.

22 Q. The problem you're relating to-- you're

23 telling me specifically what the problem is, that

24 you feel is so important.

25 A. Well, the presence of typha in certain



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1 areas is due to disturbance in animal biosis, or

2 whether it's due to increased nutrient.

3 Unfortunately, in most of the Everglades

4 areas, those two things, sort of linked together.

5 Q. If they are linked together, do you

6 think that your research is going to be able to pull

7 them apart?

8 A. That is what it was designed to do, to

9 apply these conditions independently.

10 Q. Okay. You said you were doing other

11 work on behalf of my clients.

12 Is that presently, Doctor Patrick?

13 A. Oh, I'm-- we would have about 15

14 different contracts with various funding agencies,

15 many of them federal.

16 Q. Any of these projects in the Everglades?

17 A. No.

18 Q. All right. You-- I just don't like

19 surprises.

20 A. Well, you should be pleased that

21 scientists are-- good scientists are interested in

22 this.

23 MS. PONZOLI: Off the record.

24 (Discussion off the record.)

25 BY MS. PONZOLI:



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1 Q. We had started on this, going to your

2 first area of-- expert area on peat accretion and

3 vertical distribution of soils of 2-A, three and

4 one.

5 I think we actually discussed 2-A.

6 Is three reflected here, also?

7 A. Yes have these samples that you're

8 looking at here, on these-- on the table that--

9 that's before us--

10 Q. Which--

11 A. That's before us, and S-9, as I recall,

12 those are in the--

13 Q. Three?

14 A. 3-A.

15 Q. Is one reflected here?

16 A. No.

17 Q. One is not?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are any of the others, other than the

20 S-9-- I guess are the L-67's-- are they in three?

21 Are they along three? You don't remember

22 where the site of--

23 A. I mean, I took the samples, but-- I

24 don't have a map in front of me, just where those

25 sites where, and yes, I think-- L-67 goes down



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1 through--

2 Q. Sure.

3 A. Through three.

4 Q. Okay. It also borders on the other

5 side.

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: 3-B.

7 BY MS. PONZOLI:

8 Q. You're right, 3-B.

9 A. I didn't necessarily say 3-A in those.

10 I said--

11 Q. What is HL?

12 A. The upper end wasn't 3-A, the ones I

13 talked about.

14 Q. Do you know where HL is?

15 A. HL-- I was looking at-- BC is Big

16 Cypress, and RB is Rotenberger, and HL--

17 Q. Holy Land, I bet.

18 A. There you go.

19 You don't need me.

20 Q. How about 681, 674?

21 A. Those were-- I-- those are in three, and

22 I have forgotten just what those designations mean.

23 I was depending on Doctor Davis-- we

24 picked out the site, and he was the one that

25 designated this area and this area.



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1 Q. Do you know what ESP-7 is?

2 A. Let me see.

3 Q. That must be environmental service and

4 permitting, whatever.

5 A. Oh, yes. Okay. Yes. That is-- these

6 those are some samples we ran for them, just on a--

7 just for some reason.

8 I don't know even know if they are

9 Everglades samples.

10 The printout from the laboratory, put

11 these on here, too.

12 I have no idea what those mean, but it

13 looks like a core.

14 Q. It looks like a core from the numbers,

15 that-- the mercury numbers are low, aren't they?

16 A. Yes. Yes, the mercury is--well, it's

17 fairly low.

18 It looks like background-- and the

19 phosphorus looks like a non-enriched area. It looks

20 like the phosphorus, just slightly enriched,

21 elevated in-- on the surface.

22 Q. Would you tell me, in looking at these

23 numbers, Doctor Patrick, these phosphorus, the

24 fourth column over-- those numbers in phosphorus,

25 what you consider to be the range of an unenriched



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1 site.

2 A. It--

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: So just we are clear,

4 you are asking in general?

5 MS. PONZOLI: Right.

6 THE WITNESS: Somewhere around 500 parts

7 per million on the surface, seems to be an

8 unenriched value.

9 BY MS. PONZOLI:

10 Q. Now, you would put that throughout the

11 EPA, or were you tie it to certain areas is and

12 maybe not others?

13 A. I-- I think throughout the-- throughout

14 the EPA, generally, although we may find where we

15 get into the interior of Loxahatchee, that that area

16 is so oligotrophic, even the surface air might be

17 lower than 500.

18 Q. How about the park?

19 A. I don't know anything about the park. I

20 have never sampled that.

21 Q. And you haven't examined samples from--

22 seen data from the park?

23 A. I don't think I have seen any data from

24 the park.

25 Q. Okay.



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1 A. I don't recall seeing any data from the

2 park.

3 Q. If you would, let me-- do me a favor and

4 look at these tables that we have here, and let's

5 look at the different sites, and you tell me which,

6 if any of these, present a profile that, in your

7 view, represents an unenriched area (indicating).

8 A. I--

9 Q. Starting with S9-2A.

10 That would not meet your definition? It

11 starts at 650, so it's high?

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: I'm going to object to

13 the form of the question, only to the extent that

14 the witness has already stated he doesn't have the

15 map in front of him, and if you define it solely

16 upon phosphorus, then are you going to come back and

17 say, "Aha, this was taken out in the middle of 3-A,

18 but you said it was enriched," just based on

19 phosphorus numbers.

20 We know phosphorus can be affected in

21 different ways, and I'll object to the exercise,

22 since it's based solely on the numbers. That's--

23 BY MS. PONZOLI:

24 Q. Do you have that objection, Doctor

25 Patrick? Do you find it uncomfortable to do it on



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1 the basis of the phosphorus profile, to tell me an

2 unenriched site or enriched site?

3 A. I can do it just on the basis of

4 phosphorus.

5 I don't know what the vegetation looks

6 like.

7 The--

8 Q. But I'm not asking for vegetative

9 patterns. I'm just asking you for a phosphorus

10 profile, in the soil correspondence.

11 A. Well, within reason, I can, yes.

12 Q. All right. Let's---- so S9-2A, would

13 you consider that an unenriched site?

14 A. It appears to me to be (indicating).

15 Q. Okay, and we don't have phosphorus for

16 the next one, for the next one?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And then S9-3A is--

19 A. It also appears to be unenriched, and we

20 don't have enough data for the next one.

21 As I say, where you see samples like

22 that, they were primarily taken for the mercury, but

23 if you look at what values are available for the--

24 for 3-B it doesn't look enriched.

25 Even at seven centimeters, it's below



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1 1,200.

2 Q. How about S9-3C?

3 A. It certainly doesn't don't appear

4 enriched.

5 Q. To the best of your recollection, when

6 you were looking at three, were you looking for

7 unenriched sites for the mercury?

8 Was that one of the criteria you were

9 looking for in choosing sites?

10 A. In the selection of sites, for-- one

11 criteria was looking at a site that was in the L-67

12 areas, as I recall--

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. And in the other areas-- we were looking

15 at sites that had cattails, okay?

16 And then the other areas that didn't

17 have cattails, so we were looking at that.

18 We were looking at-- maybe we were

19 looking at areas that were in the area of the two

20 canals, as I mentioned, at L-67-- between the two

21 L-67 canals that-- that presumably didn't get

22 overflow, didn't get any drainage for it, and

23 presumably had background, and--

24 Q. Okay..

25 A. And then just as I mentioned earlier, we



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1 just sort of did a sampling out of representative

2 areas.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. So that is-- but we also, in-- we were

5 looking at some stations that were near some outflow

6 or-- like some at S-9, close to some of the canals

7 where there was some outflow, so--

8 Q. But we're not seeing so far near the

9 S-9's, any sites that you consider enriched?

10 A. Well, maybe S9-5, might, on page three.

11 Q. S9-5, you would consider--

12 A. Possibly.

13 Q. It's possibly enriched?

14 A. Yes. You see it down to some depth.

15 Q. S9-6 is the same?

16 A. That's less, but that's possible.

17 Possibly enriched, so-- you know, but

18 then it may even be-- it's not that high above

19 ordinary background.

20 Obviously, we know if it's 1,200 or

21 2,000, that those are enriched, we find in certain

22 areas at the upper end of 2-A, and along L-7 in

23 Loxahatchee, and-- very close to the canal.

24 S9-7, that's only--

25 Q. That's not enriched?



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1 A. No, and the same for eight. I wouldn't

2 say eight is necessarily enriched. You know, it's

3 slightly higher, and it may be a little higher

4 phosphorus, but it doesn't extend very deep, so

5 those are, you know, sort of questionable.

6 The same with S9-9.

7 You notice this one value is a little

8 high.

9 The whole profile doesn't look very

10 enriched.

11 The same for 10, 11--

12 Q. Doesn't look enriched?

13 A. No. Those look-- but those are up at

14 around 800, 900, look a little more enriched, it's

15 higher.

16 There's obviously a difference in those.

17 Q. And again, at L67-1, would not be, and

18 L67-2, is questionable?

19 A. I would say L67-2 isn't, because it's

20 only that first section. And--

21 Q. I see.

22 A. If you have enrichment, it would be

23 down, would enrich the roots down a little.

24 You got one value, 700, and it falls off

25 to 360. The same thing happens at L67-3.



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1 Q. It's high and drops off--

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Does that indicate there might have been

4 recent enrichment, but not over an extended period

5 of time?

6 A. These were areas that may have had some

7 slight burns, so it could be, and when that happens,

8 then you got a concentration of phosphorus,

9 depending on how deep it--

10 Q. Holy Land, what we think is Holy Land,

11 would you consider within the normal range for

12 background?

13 A. Yes. It's obvious.

14 Q. BP-10, that's an example of what we

15 talked about earlier, and the same for BP-20, BP-30,

16 BP-40; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then we get down to 50, and we're

19 back into what you consider--

20 A. Well, let's just look at 50.

21 It's-- okay. That's an excellent

22 example.

23 It's obvious, by the time you get to

24 BP-50 and BP-60, any enrichment that-- from inflow

25 at 10-C, is-- has disappeared.



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1 Q. Can you just assume that we would

2 interpret the rest of these numbers in the same way

3 that we've done the ones, to now?

4 Anything else close to the 500, that you

5 would consider close to background, the ones going

6 up into 800, is probably enriched?

7 A. Yes, something like that, would be

8 reasonable.

9 Q. BC-1-- would you tell me-- tell me what

10 BC-1 was.

11 A. Big Cypress.

12 Q. That's at 150, that--

13 A. Where is that?

14 Q. Page nine.

15 A. Right. Well, Big Cypress is a very

16 nutrient poor system.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. And it is more of mineral.

19 It has more solid material-- on a volume

20 basis, it's-- it probably has as much those as some

21 of the force, because it has six times as-- density,

22 as the one above it, 674--

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. It has a-- above density of .1, and Big

25 Cypress has a density of .6, so-- six times as



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1 dense, so if you calculate on a volume basis, then--

2 and, in fact, you can see the last column, the--

3 that's phosphorus in the milligrams per three

4 centimeters sections, and actually, Big Cypress is

5 higher on a volume basis, than number 684.

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: 674.

7 MS. PONZOLI: I see that. I--

8 BY MS. PONZOLI:

9 Q. Let's ask you--

10 A. I would say that Big Cypress represents

11 very low phosphorus system, a low mercury system.

12 Q. The 500 parts per million at the surface

13 level, do you believe that represents an

14 oligotrophic system in the Everglades?

15 A. Yes. Yes, because in that system, most

16 of those are from rainfall.

17 Q. Have you ever done an analysis on the

18 rainfall in the Everglades?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So you wouldn't want to give me your

21 opinion what the rainfall number--

22 A. No. I heard the values, but it seems to

23 me, 50 parts per billion is a value I've heard

24 expressed, but there are people measuring rainfall,

25 so that data should be ready and available.



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1 MS. PONZOLI: So like everything else,

2 there's a lot of opinion on it.

3 I'm going to stop there, Doctor

4 Patrick.

5 You're going to try and get the map, the

6 site location--

7 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are we off--

8 MS. PONZOLI: Yes. Let's go ahead and go

9 off.

10 (Thereupon the deposition was

11 adjourned until the following day at

12 9:00 a.m.)

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25



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