1 1 STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS 2 3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE ) 4 OF FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural ) Cooperative Marketing Association, ) 5 ROTH FARMS, INC., AND WEDGEWORTH ) FARMS, INC., ) 6 ) and ) 7 ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) Nos. 92-3038 8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) 92-3039 and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) 92-3040 9 ) and ) 10 ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) 11 ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) 12 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) ) 13 Petitioners, ) ) 14 vs. ) ) 15 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an Agency of the State ) 16 of Florida, ) ) 17 Respondent, ) ) 18 and ) ) 19 MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF ) 20 AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT ) OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, ) 21 FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, the ) FLORIDA AUDUBON SOCIETY, and the ) 22 SIERRA CLUB, ) ) 23 Intervenors. ) ___________________________________) 24 25 BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 2 1 DEPOSITION OF WALTER PARKER 2 3 1 Clearlake Center, Suite 1403 250 Australian Avenue South 4 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 February 9, 1993 5 9:00 o'clock A. M. 6 7 APPEARANCES: 8 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK 9 BY: RICK BURGESS, ESQ. One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636 10 Two South Biscayne Blvd. Miami, FL 33131 11 (305) 358-3000 Appearing on behalf of the Petitioners, Florida 12 Sugar Cane League, Inc.; United States Sugar Corporation; and New Hope South, Inc. 13 POPHAM HAIK 14 BY: PATRICK S. COUSINS, ESQ. 100 S. E. Second Street 15 P. O. Box 019101 Miami, FL 33131 16 (305) 530-0050 Appearing on behalf of the Respondent. 17 U. S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 18 BY: GARY S. GUZY, ESQ. 10th & Pennsylvania Avenue, N. W. 19 Washington, D. C. 20530 (202) 514-2689 20 Appearing on behalf of the Intervenors. 21 22 23 24 25 BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 3 1 The deposition of WALTER PARKER, a witness 2 of lawful age, taken for the purpose of discovery as 3 evidence in the above-styled cause, pending in the State 4 of Florida, Division of Administrative Hearings, pursuant 5 to Notice, before Debrah Veroni, a Shorthand Reporter and 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, at 7 the time and place aforesaid. 8 ------------------ 9 I N D E X 10 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT 11 WALTER PARKER 12 By Mr. Guzy 4 By Mr. Burgess 153 13 By Mr. Guzy 154 14 15 EXHIBITS 16 PARKER EXHIBIT PAGE 17 No. 1 92 2 92 18 3 92 4 92 19 5 92 6 92 20 7 92 8 145 21 22 23 24 25 BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 4 1 WHEREUPON: 2 WALTER PARKER, 3 called as a witness by the Intervenors, having been first 4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. GUZY: 7 Q. Would you please state your name for the 8 record and your address? 9 A. Walter C. Parker, Jr., 608 Ridgeview Circle, 10 Clewiston. 11 Q. Mr. Parker, my name is Gary Guzy. I'm an 12 attorney with the U.S. Department of Justice for 13 Respondent-Intervenors in this action. 14 Have you ever been deposed before? 15 A. Yes, I have. 16 Q. Approximately how many times? 17 A. Probably all together maybe three or four 18 times. I can't remember exactly. 19 Q. What kind of actions were they? 20 A. Primarily related to our H2A Foreign Labor 21 Program litigation brought about. 22 Q. Generally, I take it then you're familiar 23 with the way depositions work? 24 A. Yes, I am. 25 Q. There are three things that I would ask you BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 5 1 to keep in mind during this deposition. One is if at any 2 point you don't understand a question of mine, please ask 3 me to repeat it and I will be happy to do so. I want to 4 make sure that before you answer you understand my 5 question. Also, if you answer verbally, that will help 6 the court reporter to get things down. Lastly, if you 7 want to take a break, just let me know. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. There's coffee in the other deposition room, 10 so you can get that at any time. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. What documents did you review before the 13 deposition today? 14 A. The documents that I had in my file that I 15 handed to you before the start of the deposition. 16 Q. Any others? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Did you receive a notice of this deposition? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Did you review that? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Did you do anything else to prepare for 23 today's deposition? 24 A. No, sir. Other than meeting with my 25 attorney -- our attorney yesterday. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 6 1 Q. Did you meet with anyone else? 2 A. Bubba Wade was also at that meeting. 3 Q. That was the meeting yesterday with your 4 attorney? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. Did you have any other conversations with 7 anyone about today's deposition? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Could you tell me a little bit about your 10 educational background. What's the most schooling that 11 you've done? 12 A. Two years of college. 13 Q. Where was that at? 14 A. Palm Beach Junior College in Lake Worth. 15 Q. When was that? 16 A. 1966. 17 Q. Did you complete a degree program? 18 A. No, I did not. 19 Q. What was your area of study there? 20 A. At that time I was studying architectural 21 drafting and design. 22 Q. Have you done any course work since that 23 time? 24 A. No, I haven't. 25 Q. Any seminars or informal training sessions? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 7 1 A. Yes. There has been several, I guess, over 2 the years that may be presented by IFAS or different -- 3 other state agencies that related to our operations that I 4 attended. 5 Q. Are there any that you specifically 6 remember? 7 A. Not really. It's been awhile since I have 8 been to any. I just know over the years -- 9 Q. When do you think you last attended one? 10 A. Probably about four years ago. Four, five 11 years ago. 12 Q. Do you remember what that was about? 13 A. It was on nutrients, fertilizers for 14 sugarcane. 15 Q. How long did that course last? 16 A. A week. 17 Q. Full time for the week? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were there any course materials that were 20 distributed? 21 A. No, sir, not that I remember. 22 Q. Can you tell me in a little bit more detail 23 what kinds of subjects that course covered? 24 A. Basically it talked about or instructed 25 about soil sampling and analyzing the soil, and then BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 8 1 reading the samples, the analysis from the soil and from 2 that, you know, determining crop nutrient requirements. 3 Q. Did you receive any kind of certification as 4 a result of that course? 5 A. No, sir, not that I remember. 6 Q. How did you come to attend that course? 7 A. Our company asked for it, so we sent a group 8 of people within our department to it. And the University 9 of Florida set it up for us, and it was in Gainesville. 10 Q. Let's go back to I believe it was 1966 when 11 you spent two years in college. What did you do after 12 that? 13 A. Went on active duty with the National 14 Guard. I was in the National Guard at the time. While I 15 was on active duty in the National Guard, I got married 16 and then when I came back I went to work for U.S. Sugar. 17 Q. Was that the first time you had worked for 18 U.S. Sugar? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What year was that? 21 A. 1967. 22 Q. Did you go immediately from high school to 23 Palm Beach Junior College? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. What was your first position with U.S. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 9 1 Sugar? 2 A. I was a harvest foreman over on harvest 3 crew. 4 Q. Where was that located? 5 A. It was in our Prewitt Plantation in Eastern 6 Division. 7 Q. Is that within the EAA? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did that involve the harvesting of 10 sugarcane? 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. Was that the only crop involved? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How long did you hold that position for? 15 A. One year. 16 Q. Then what did you do? 17 A. I became an assistant field chemist working 18 out of the Eastern Division staff office at U.S. Sugar. 19 Q. Where is that office located? 20 A. Bryant, B-R-Y-A-N-T. 21 Q. How long did you hold that position for? 22 A. I can't remember how many years. Maybe 23 three or four. 24 Q. What did you do after that? 25 A. Then I was field chemist. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 10 1 Q. Also in the office in Bryant? 2 A. Yes, yes. 3 Q. How long did you do that for? 4 A. Again, maybe two, three years. 5 Q. What came next? 6 A. Technical assistant for Eastern Division 7 Agriculture, same office. That was until March of '78. 8 Q. After that? 9 A. In March of '78 I left the company and went 10 to work for another farm. I was general manager of 11 Sucrose Growers. It no longer has that name. It's a 12 sugarcane farm. 13 Q. Where was that farm located? 14 A. It's east of Belle Glade. 15 Q. How large an operation is that? 16 A. About 10,000 acres. 17 Q. Is that farm still in existence? 18 A. Not as that. It was purchased by New Hope. 19 Q. When did that purchase occur? 20 A. In 1979 sometime. 21 Q. Is that how long you stayed with them? 22 A. No. I stayed for about a year after that. 23 I left in May of 1980 and went back to work for U.S. 24 Sugar. 25 Q. And assumed what position? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 11 1 A. Technical assistant, but then I worked out 2 of the department head's office in Clewiston with 3 responsibilities for both the Eastern and Western 4 Divisions. 5 Q. How long did you do that for? 6 A. About three or four years again. 7 Q. After that what did you do? 8 A. I think the next step was administrative 9 assistant to the senior vice president. 10 Q. Is that your current position? 11 A. No. My current title is assistant to the 12 senior vice president, which will be the next one. 13 Q. When did you assume this position? 14 A. About four, five years ago. 15 Q. I would like to briefly go back and run 16 through these and get a sense of what your 17 responsibilities were. Starting in 1967 as harvest 18 foreman, what was your assignment? 19 A. Supervise the harvest crew responsible for 20 cutting, loading and hauling, delivering the cane to the 21 mill for that crew. 22 Q. How large is the harvest crew? 23 A. It was a hand-cut crew. It had about 220 24 hand-cut cutters. 25 Q. How large is or was the crew at Prewitt BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 12 1 Plantation back then? 2 A. It was the same size as it is right now. If 3 I can just count up the sections. It looks about 13 or 14 4 sections, a section being 640 acres, so -- 5 Q. I won't make you do the math this early in 6 the morning. That gives me a sense of it, thanks. 7 Were there a number of cutting crews or was 8 there just one that you were a foreman in? 9 A. I was only over one. 10 Q. There were other crews -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- that worked on that plantation? 13 A. And in that division. 14 Q. You've referred -- and I think for the next 15 position you refer to the Eastern Division. Can you give 16 me a rough idea what kind of breakdowns there were in U.S. 17 Sugar? How is it structured? 18 A. From my department we have the Agriculture 19 Department. We have a department head who is the senior 20 vice president. I report directly to him. We also have 21 in his staff, which is the Agriculture Administration 22 Department, I guess, or section for our department, we 23 have support personnel that work for us with 24 responsibilities over both divisions. Then the two 25 divisions we have are separated geographically by, say, BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 13 1 the City of South Bay and the North River Canal. I guess 2 anything east of that is our Eastern Division. And it 3 runs around the southeast and east of Lake Okeechobee, 4 west and northwest along the west side of Lake 5 Okeechobee. And in each division we have a 6 superintendent. Under him there are two assistant 7 superintendents. And then we have thirteen farm managers, 8 seven in one division and six in another division. And 9 then the farm managers have one, two or three foremen or 10 assistant foremen under them, depending on the size of the 11 farm. 12 Q. What are the other departments within U.S. 13 Sugar in addition to the Agriculture Department? 14 A. I guess probably 10 or 12. 15 Q. Give me a sense of what kinds of things -- 16 A. We have a sugar house, accounting, 17 executive, engineering, research, materials management, 18 materials information, citrus, vegetable, a finance 19 department. I think that's about ten right there. 20 Q. That's pretty good. Let's go back to 1968 21 when you were assistant field chemist. What were your 22 responsibilities there? 23 A. Primarily sampling the cane prior to harvest 24 to see which fields were mature and ready for harvest. 25 Q. How is that process done? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 14 1 A. You have a core sampler that you take out. 2 You literally push it through the stalk and when you pull 3 it out, it brings out the cane. It leaves it in the 4 sampler. You crush the juice and analyze the juice for 5 sugar content. 6 Q. Did you have any specialized training for 7 that position? 8 A. No. Just on-the-job training. 9 Q. I take it as field chemist you did roughly 10 the same? 11 A. Yeah. I just supervised the crew that did 12 the sampling then. 13 Q. Was that for the entire Eastern Division? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What are the responsibilities -- excuse me. 16 What were your responsibilities as technical assistant? 17 A. The technical assistant had overall 18 responsibility for the sampling as well as ordering the 19 fertilizer, ordering the herbicides and insecticides and 20 having them in inventory in our warehouse, advising on 21 rates of application of the herbicides and insecticides, 22 depending on what the pest was. I guess that's about it. 23 Q. Did you have any training for that position? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you receive any while you were -- excuse BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 15 1 me. Any particular course work or anything like that 2 while you were in that position? 3 A. Not that I remember. I mean there were 4 grower meetings that, you know, they had periodically 5 through IFAS that we attended and different things, but I 6 don't remember specifically any. 7 Q. Back in 1978 was the decision on whether to 8 apply fertilizer and insecticides, herbicides or how much 9 to apply exclusively made by the technical assistant? 10 A. No. 11 Q. How was that decision made? 12 A. We didn't have any responsibility for 13 recommending fertilizer. 14 Q. I thought you had said that -- 15 A. No. We ordered the fertilizer from the 16 fertilizer company and ordered the deliveries and had it 17 spotted in the field, but we didn't make a recommendation 18 on rates of fertilizer. 19 Q. With respect to insecticides and herbicides? 20 A. Yes, we would. We would look at the problem 21 that was there and within the confinements of the label of 22 the product make recommendations as to how much, what 23 chemical to use. 24 Q. What guidelines were you provided, if any, 25 in making those decisions? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 16 1 A. For what? 2 Q. For either rates or types of insecticides 3 and herbicides. 4 A. Primarily just experience, and working with 5 the material, and knowing what its capabilities were, and 6 what the manufacturers' recommended rates were, and what 7 their recommended target pest was. 8 Q. Who was your supervisor during that period? 9 A. Superintendent of Eastern Division. At that 10 time it was -- J.D. Stacy was his name. 11 Q. Did you supervise anyone in that position? 12 A. I had an assistant field chemist who worked 13 underneath my supervision. 14 Q. Is Mr. Stacy still with the company, still 15 alive? 16 A. He's retired. 17 Q. Do you know where he lives? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Were there any company or corporate 20 guidelines as to application of insecticides or herbicides 21 that you were required to comply with? 22 A. Not that I remember. 23 Q. Why did you leave U.S. Sugar at that period? 24 A. I had the opportunity to become a manager of 25 a farm, and so I accepted another job. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 17 1 Q. What caused you to return to U.S. Sugar? 2 A. J.D. Stacy, when he became vice president of 3 the department and moved to Clewiston, the headquarters, 4 called and asked me if I would come back and work for him 5 in the main office. 6 Q. So Mr. Stacy was the vice president for 7 agriculture? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. When did he retire? 10 A. I can't remember the year, but it was in the 11 early '80s. 12 Q. So you returned to assume the position of 13 technical assistant, but working out of the department 14 head's office? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How did that differ from what you had been 17 doing before you left? 18 A. Well, it was primarily the same 19 responsibilities except over both divisions rather than 20 just one. 21 Q. What were your responsibilities as 22 administrative assistant to the vice president? 23 A. It got into more administrative type work in 24 that job, working as more or less a liaison with other 25 departments within the company and as a contact person BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 18 1 from our department to other departments, and that's about 2 it, I guess. 3 Q. You reported directly to Mr. Stacy? 4 A. No. He was retired. 5 Q. He was retired by that time? 6 A. Yes. I reported to the vice president of 7 the department head then. 8 Q. Who was that? 9 A. Frank Polhill. 10 Q. Is he still there? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I take it in your current position you also 13 report to him? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. As administrative assistant to the senior 16 vice president, what staff did you directly supervise? 17 A. I didn't have any direct responsibility for 18 supervising anyone. I just consulted with them primarily. 19 Q. Is that also true with respect to your 20 current position? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How did your responsibilities change when 23 you became assistant to the senior vice president? 24 A. Well, I guess primarily title more than 25 anything else. But I guess that's about the biggest BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 19 1 change. 2 Q. Have Mr. Polhill's responsibilities changed 3 during the period you have been working for him? 4 A. No. He's always been the department head 5 since I have been working for him. 6 Q. Has he always been a senior vice president? 7 A. No. 8 Q. When did that change occur? 9 A. Two, three years ago. 10 Q. What does that change in name reflect? 11 A. I have no idea. It's a different title. 12 Q. Who supervises the department heads? 13 A. Well, they report to the Executive 14 Department in the company. 15 Q. Is there any person in particular? 16 A. I guess the president would probably be one 17 and the executive vice president. 18 Q. What are your responsibilities now? 19 A. Our department's responsible for the 20 planting, growing and harvesting of the sugarcane crop for 21 the company, so in carrying out those responsibilities. I 22 guess the best way to explain what we do is anything 23 involving our sugarcane crop we manage. 24 Q. How many employees work for the Agriculture 25 Department? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 20 1 A. Well, it varies. During the harvest season, 2 which is now, we have probably around 3,200 employees 3 within our department. During the summer it's down to 4 about probably 500. 5 Q. How many acres of sugarcane are in 6 production? 7 A. This year we'll harvest about 121,000 acres. 8 Q. Are there also fields that lie fallow this 9 year that aren't included in there? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. About how many acres are there? 12 A. I guess it would be around 5 or 6,000. 13 Q. Is the Agriculture Department responsible 14 for growing, planting or harvesting any other crops? 15 A. We do grow rice as a fallow crop in the 16 summer. 17 Q. Any citrus? 18 A. Not in our department, no. That's a 19 different department. 20 Q. Which department is that? 21 A. Citrus. 22 Q. I take it vegetables are in the Vegetable 23 Department? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Have you ever had any responsibilities for BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 21 1 any of those crops? 2 A. No, I haven't. 3 Q. Are you familiar at all with any debts or 4 the debt structure of U.S. Sugar? 5 A. No, sir, I'm not. 6 Q. Are you familiar with any federal subsidy 7 programs that U.S. Sugar might be involved with? 8 A. No, sir. I know there's a sugar program, 9 but I don't know the details of our participation in it. 10 Q. Who in your mind is the most knowledgeable 11 person about that at U.S. Sugar? 12 A. About -- 13 Q. The corporation's participation in those 14 kinds of programs. 15 A. I don't know who would know the most about 16 it. 17 Q. Do you know how many employees there are 18 overall at the company? 19 A. Well, I've heard the figure of full-time 20 employees -- around 2,800 full-time year round employees. 21 And then I've heard 6,500 seasonal. 22 Q. Is that total or in addition to the 2,800? 23 A. That's total. I'm not counting them. 24 That's just what I've heard. 25 Q. Do you work out of an office? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 22 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. What kinds of files do you maintain in your 3 office? 4 A. Well, my office -- my filing system is not 5 very large, but basically, you know, planting, growing and 6 harvesting information is all I can -- the best way I can 7 describe it. 8 Q. How extensive are your files? 9 A. Not very. 10 Q. Can you give us an example? There's a 11 standard size Xerox paper box sitting to your right. 12 Would it fill up one of those boxes? 13 A. It probably would, yeah. 14 Q. Do you have a few file cabinets? 15 A. I have two filing cabinets. 16 Q. Two filing cabinets. Did you search those 17 filing cabinets to find documents that you brought today? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you search all of your files in order to 20 find those? 21 A. Well, I knew what was there related to this, 22 so I knew where to go to get those. There are certain 23 files -- those files aren't that extensive. And this is 24 all I could find that was responsive to the subpoena. 25 Q. Did you review any other files? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 23 1 A. No, I didn't. 2 Q. Does the Agriculture Department retain 3 files? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What kind of filing system is there? 6 A. I really don't get into their files. 7 Q. Well, when you say, "their files", you have 8 certain supervisory responsibilities for the Agriculture 9 Department; am I right about that? 10 A. Not really. Like I say, I'm consulted about 11 things, but as far as direct supervisory responsibilities, 12 no. 13 Q. Is there a central file for the Agriculture 14 Department? 15 A. No, not that I know of. Each division has 16 files and, you know, that's about it. 17 Q. So the Western Division and the Eastern 18 Division have files? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What sort of files do these divisions 21 maintain? 22 A. I'm not sure. I've never been in them. 23 Q. Where are they located? 24 A. Eastern and Western Division offices. 25 Q. Eastern Division is located where? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 24 1 A. Clewiston. 2 Q. Does U.S. Sugar have any corporate policy 3 for retention of files? 4 A. Not that I'm aware of. 5 Q. Do you have any personal policy about 6 retention of files? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. Does the Agriculture Department have any 9 policy? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Are you aware that you've been designated as 12 a fact witness in these proceedings? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Are you aware of the areas of testimony that 15 have been indicated for you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Would you tell me, Mr. Parker, what you 18 intend to testify to at the final hearing with respect to 19 U.S. Sugar agricultural operations? 20 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the 21 question. I think the witness is going to respond to 22 questions at the time of the hearing. I think it's within 23 his expectation that he's going to testify to one thing or 24 another. 25 MR. GUZY: Well, he can answer that? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 25 1 MR. BURGESS: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I would guess by my 3 position I would be asked to respond to questions about 4 our agricultural operations regarding planting, growing 5 and harvesting the sugarcane crop. 6 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you formulated any of 7 that testimony yet? 8 A. No, I haven't. 9 Q. Have you had discussions with anyone about 10 that testimony? 11 A. No, I haven't. 12 Q. What about with respect to BMPs? 13 A. I can speak to BMPs that we may have in 14 practice in going -- in our operations, as part of our 15 operations. 16 Q. Have you formulated any of your testimony 17 with respect to BMPs yet? 18 A. No, sir, I haven't. 19 Q. Have you had any discussions with anyone 20 about that testimony? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. What about the impact of the SWIM Plan? 23 What can you testify to about that? 24 A. I really don't know what the impact is. 25 Q. Have you formulated any testimony about BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 26 1 that? 2 A. No, sir. 3 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the 4 question about the witness formulating testimony. The 5 witness is going to respond to questions and answers with 6 respect to things within his sphere of knowledge and those 7 things that are on the witness list with respect to his 8 potential areas of testimony. And I think it's improper 9 to ask a fact witness whether he's formulated testimony in 10 any regard. 11 MR. GUZY: I think you had responded to that 12 question already anyway. 13 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you consulted with 14 anyone about testimony on the impact of the SWIM Plan? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you given anyone your opinion about the 17 impact of the SWIM Plan? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Have you done any analysis of the SWIM Plan? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Have you read it? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Have you read any of the drafts of the SWIM 24 Plan? 25 A. No, sir. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 27 1 Q. I take it you haven't written any comments 2 about it? 3 A. That's correct. I have not. 4 Q. Who made the determination about what your 5 areas of testimony as a fact witness would be? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. I take it you did not? 8 A. That's correct. I did not. 9 Q. Have you had any discussions with any other 10 individuals who have been identified as fact witnesses for 11 U.S. Sugar concerning their projected areas of testimony? 12 A. I don't know who has been identified as fact 13 witnesses for the company. 14 Q. Have you ever reviewed the witness 15 designation list in this proceeding? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with 18 anyone about that? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. When did you first learn that you had been 21 designated as a fact witness? 22 A. A couple of months ago, the best I can 23 remember, I was told. 24 Q. Who told you that? 25 A. Bubba Wade. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 28 1 Q. What did Mr. Wade tell you? 2 A. That I was going to be a witness in this 3 case. 4 Q. How did it come up? 5 A. He picked the phone up and called me and 6 told me, I guess. 7 Q. What was the context of that conversation? 8 A. I don't remember the exact words. 9 Q. The subject matter of the conversation was 10 what, generally? 11 A. That I was going to be a witness in the 12 suit. 13 Q. That was all? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Did Mr. Wade say anything else? 16 A. Not that I recall. 17 Q. Did you have any response? 18 A. No, I didn't. 19 Q. Do you remember in any more detail when that 20 conversation occurred? 21 A. No, sir. I'm not even sure about the two 22 months. I can't remember. We're right in the middle of 23 our harvest season. With so many things going on, I just 24 can't remember exactly. 25 Q. You were in the middle of harvest season BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 29 1 when that occurred, the telephone call? 2 A. It seems to me that we were. 3 Q. Now, have you had any discussions with 4 individuals who have been designated as expert witnesses 5 on behalf of U.S. Sugar in this proceeding? 6 A. I don't know who's been designated as an 7 expert witness. 8 Q. Have you attended any litigation strategy 9 meetings or anything like that? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Have you had any other meetings with your 12 counsel than the one you described yesterday? 13 A. In the request for discovery there was some 14 information that we produced for Burgess. 15 Q. Any other contact? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Have you ever reviewed the administrative 18 petition filed by U.S. Sugar in this proceeding? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Are you familiar with it? 21 A. I know our company is quite concerned about 22 the SWIM Plan, and they're doing a lot of things to try to 23 find a better solution. But that's as far as -- as much 24 as I know about it. I know they're working hard on it. 25 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 30 1 anyone about the nature of your company's concerns about 2 the SWIM Plan? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Do you have any particular knowledge about 5 impacts to the Everglades Ego System as a result of U.S. 6 Sugar farming practices? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. More generally, as a result of EAA farming? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. There are a number of assertions in that 11 petition. You said you haven't read it, but I just want 12 to run through them. I think I know what your answers 13 will be, but I just want to be certain. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. A number of the assertions go to impacts on 16 the Everglades in general and what the current state of 17 the Everglades is from an ecological perspective. Do you 18 have any particular knowledge about that? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Any knowledge about federal government or 21 South Florida Water Management District activities and how 22 those activities may affect the ecological health of the 23 Everglades Ego System? 24 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the 25 question, overbroad. You can answer. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 31 1 THE WITNESS: I read the paper. I know, you 2 know, what's going on with every party involved in it from 3 reading the papers, but that's about it. 4 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Nothing from your employment 5 with U.S. Sugar? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Do you have any particularized knowledge 8 about allegations concerning other factors which might 9 affect the health of the Everglades Ego System such as 10 muck fire, freeze protection, population increases, things 11 like that? 12 A. No, sir, not other than what I read in the 13 papers. 14 Q. Are you familiar with whether there have 15 been water quality standards violations in the Everglades 16 Ego System? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Do you have any experience with permit 19 application procedures with the Water Management District? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. With the Department of Water Relations? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. I take it you don't have any experience with 24 some specifics like mixings on specific criteria, 25 equitable abatement, any of those things? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 32 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Is the answer the same with respect as to 3 whether the SWIM Plan complies with various laws and 4 regulations? 5 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer 7 it. I don't know whether it's a yes or no. 8 MR. GUZY: Let me restate it then. 9 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Is the answer the same with 10 respect as to whether the SWIM Plan complies with various 11 laws and regulations? 12 A. Yes. The answer is the same, which is no. 13 Q. You don't have any particularized knowledge 14 about that? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And about implementation costs of the 17 proposed SWIM remediation, whether those are accurately 18 estimated? Do you have any particularized knowledge about 19 that? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Do you have any particularized knowledge 22 about whether the SWIM Plan -- excuse me. Whether the 23 settlement agreement in the federal litigation led to some 24 kind of impermissible contract? 25 A. No, sir. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 33 1 MR. GUZY: Off the record for a second. 2 (Discussion off the record.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Are you aware of any physical 4 changes that U.S. Sugar farming operations might suffer as 5 a result of implementing the SWIM Plan remedies? 6 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 8 MR. GUZY: Before you answer can I 9 understand what this objection is about? 10 MR. BURGESS: Physical changes? I don't 11 know what you mean by that. I don't know if he knows what 12 you mean. Object to the form. I think the question is 13 vague. 14 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) I would refer you to the 15 allegation of the U.S. Sugar petition, particularly 16 paragraph 33, pages 12 and 13. 17 MR. BURGESS: I think it's fine if you give 18 the witness the context you're asking the question. 19 That's permissible. Without it I don't think he can 20 formulate an answer. 21 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) I will be happy to show you 22 this. I'm not going to introduce it as an exhibit, 23 because it's already in circulation. But this is an 24 allegation from your company's petition, the highlighted 25 sections there. And I would ask you to read that, BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 34 1 please. I'll just switch copies with you for a second. 2 Thanks. 3 I take it from your testimony before that 4 you've never seen this before? 5 A. That's correct. I have not seen it. 6 MR. BURGESS: I will just note for the 7 record that the paragraph the witness has been shown talks 8 about the effects that may be suffered by the petitioners, 9 plural, and that the context of the petition refers not 10 only to United States Sugar Company, but also Florida 11 Sugar League and New Hope South. 12 MR. GUZY: Thank you for that 13 clarification. 14 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Are you aware of any physical 15 changes, as that term seems to be used in this paragraph, 16 that U.S. Sugar farming operations might suffer, as that 17 term is used, as a result of implementing any of the 18 provisions of the SWIM Plan? 19 A. Not knowing what all the provisions of the 20 SWIM Plan is, I don't think I could respond to what 21 physical damages may occur. 22 Q. You're not aware of any; is that right? 23 A. Well, all I know is if we can't drain our 24 fields, then the crops will suffer. 25 Q. When you say if you can't drain your fields, BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 35 1 what do you mean? 2 A. If that's one of the regulatory policies and 3 programs and if it prevents us from getting the water off 4 of our cane when there's too much water on the cane, then 5 the cane of course will die. 6 Q. Are you aware of whether that kind of 7 provision is part of the SWIM Plan? 8 A. No. That's what I said. If one of the 9 policies of the program prevents you from getting water 10 off the cane when it needs to come off, then the cane will 11 die. It can't grow under water. 12 Q. What about the next clause there, "will 13 impair existing permit rights"? Are you aware of any way 14 in which the SWIM Plan would impair existing -- 15 A. I'm not familiar with "impair existing 16 permit rights". 17 Q. Are you familiar with any of the specifics 18 concerning water management activities? 19 A. What do you mean by "water management 20 activities"? 21 Q. The next clause says, "will adversely affect 22 their substantial interests and ability to conduct 23 essential water management activities on their property to 24 protect their crops and farming operations". 25 A. Yes. That's what I was talking about before BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 36 1 when I stated that if as a result of any program we were 2 not able to get the water off of our property and off the 3 cane properly, then of course the crop would suffer. 4 Q. Is it a fair statement to say that you're 5 not aware of any specific provisions of the SWIM Plan that 6 would affect your ability to move the water in the way 7 you've described; is that a fair statement? 8 A. I think I've already stated I don't know 9 what all the provisions of the SWIM Plan are. I think I 10 have already made that statement. I'm only saying is that 11 if one of them -- it will not let us get the water off of 12 the cane, then the cane crop's going to suffer. 13 Q. Are you aware of any provisions of the SWIM 14 Plan that create that problem for you? 15 A. I'm not aware of any provisions at all of 16 the SWIM Plan. 17 Q. Fair enough. Are you aware of whether the 18 SWIM Plan either rightly or wrongly assigns to the EAA 19 responsibility toward the protection and restoration of 20 the Everglades protection area? I'm referring now, if you 21 want to look at it, to page 3, paragraph 4-D there. If 22 you can tell me if you have any particularized knowledge 23 about that, I would appreciate it. That last paragraph on 24 the page. 25 A. What's the question? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 37 1 Q. Do you have any particularized knowledge 2 about that allegation? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Have you had discussions with anyone about 5 changes in farming practices that might result from 6 implementing the SWIM Plan? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Other than what you told me before about the 9 concern if, as you said, water -- you're unable to move 10 water off of the sugarcane crops, there may be an impact, 11 do you have any other opinions or concerns about 12 implementing the SWIM Plan? 13 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the 14 question. 15 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. Like I said 16 before, all I know is our company is working quite hard 17 against the SWIM Plan as it currently stands, so there 18 must be good reasons for them to fight it like that. 19 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) I think you said before that 20 you hadn't read the March 13, 1992, SWIM Plan, am I right 21 about that? 22 A. That's correct. I have not read it. 23 Q. Any of the supporting technical documents? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Any of the drafts? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 38 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Have you given any consideration to 3 alternatives to the SWIM Plan? 4 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean. 6 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you given any thought to 7 other means for achieving the goals of the SWIM Plan than 8 are currently -- other than as currently adopted by the 9 Water Management District? 10 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the goal of 12 the SWIM Plan is, so I don't know if I can answer your 13 question. 14 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you considered any other 15 means for reducing nutrient impacts from farm field crops 16 other than those already in the SWIM Plan? 17 A. I don't know what's in the SWIM Plan. 18 Q. Have you had any discussion along those 19 lines with anyone where you specifically talked about 20 alternatives? 21 A. No. You know, all we have is what I gave 22 you there, which is a phosphorus reduction program through 23 reduced pumping practices. 24 Q. By "there" you're referring to the documents 25 that you brought with you today -- BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 39 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- in response to our deposition notice? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. We will get to those later. I appreciate 5 that. 6 Have you reviewed any of the economic impact 7 analyses that's been done of the SWIM Plan? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. I take it then you haven't critiqued it if 10 you haven't reviewed it. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. When was U.S. Sugar incorporated? 13 A. I think in 1931. 14 Q. What kind of entity is it? 15 A. It's a private company. Around 46 or 47 16 percent of the stock is owned by the employees through a 17 lease option. The balance of the stock is owned by the 18 Mott Charitable Trust I think is the name of it. Mott 19 Children's Foundation, the Mott family. 20 Q. Do you know when U.S. Sugar first began 21 sugarcane production? 22 A. 1931 when it was -- when it became U.S. 23 Sugar. 24 Q. What kind of farming did the company engage 25 in then back in the early '30s? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 40 1 A. Sugarcane. 2 Q. How many acres? 3 A. I don't know how large the farms were back 4 then. 5 Q. Was there an original farming area? 6 A. I'm not sure what the original site of the 7 farms were. 8 Q. Are you familiar with the history of U.S. 9 Sugar's farming up until the time you became an employee? 10 A. I don't know what you mean by "familiar". I 11 mean I grew up in the area, so I knew they were there. 12 Q. Do you know basically where and when areas 13 came into production? 14 A. No. 15 MR. GUZY: Off the record. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Has additional land come into 18 production for sugarcane farming since you have been 19 associated with the company? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you summarize that for us, please? 22 Where and when areas came into production? 23 A. Primarily on the west side of the lake and 24 the sand line areas that were formerly -- was formerly 25 pasture land. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 41 1 Q. And that's how much property? 2 A. I'm really not sure how many acres. I don't 3 have a guess right now. 4 Q. When did that area get converted? 5 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the 6 question. I think there's been testimony that there was 7 one area. The witness has been associated with U.S. Sugar 8 at two different times during his employment career, and I 9 don't think we're -- I don't think the question is clear, 10 and I think it's giving the witness trouble answering it. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know, you know, at 12 what time what area came into production in the 26 years 13 that I first started working for the company. I can't 14 remember. 15 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) The areas on the west side of 16 the lake, have they been added over time or was there one 17 or two large additions? 18 A. I don't know. I mean I just can't 19 remember. It's been so far back that I just can't 20 remember. 21 Q. U.S. Sugar also owns processing mills for 22 sugarcane? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. How many of those? 25 A. Two. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 42 1 Q. Which are those? 2 A. The Bryant Sugar House and the Clewiston 3 Sugar House. 4 Q. Does all the sugar from the acreages you 5 were talking about before that's currently in production, 6 does all of that sugar go to one of those two mills? 7 A. No. We also have cane that goes to the 8 sugarcane Growers Cooperative of Florida. 9 Q. Is there some geographic division as to 10 which cane goes where? 11 A. Yes. Primarily the Eastern Division cane 12 goes to Bryant Sugar House and the Western Division cane 13 goes to Clewiston Sugar House. 14 Q. Which goes to the co-op? 15 A. There's some acreages in both divisions that 16 go to the co-op. 17 Q. Is there sugar that's not grown by U.S. 18 Sugar that goes to the U.S. Sugar mills? 19 A. Yes, there is. 20 Q. Do you know about how much? 21 A. About 45,000 acres. 22 Q. Who farms those acres? 23 A. There's about 30 growers, 35, somewhere 24 along there. 25 Q. Are they concentrated in any particular BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 43 1 geographic area? 2 A. No. There's some in both divisions. 3 Q. Do they just sell their cane to U.S. Sugar? 4 What kind of arrangement does U.S. Growers have? 5 A. Yes, yes. 6 Q. Who makes the decision about where to farm 7 and when? Basically whether areas are added to -- let's 8 start with whether areas are added to or acquired by U.S. 9 Sugar. Who makes that decision? 10 A. The Executive Department. 11 Q. Anyone in particular? 12 A. I guess Mr. Fairbanks. 13 Q. Who makes the decision about which areas lie 14 fallow and which areas are actually grown for a particular 15 growing period? 16 A. Mr. Polhill. 17 Q. What are some of the considerations there, 18 do you know? 19 A. You would have to ask him. 20 Q. Who makes the decision about which areas to 21 plant and when to plant? 22 A. Mr. Polhill. 23 Q. Do you participate in those kinds of 24 decisions? 25 A. Yes. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 44 1 Q. Can you summarize what the considerations 2 are? 3 MR. BURGESS: Is this with respect to what 4 to plant and where to plant? I'm sorry. Is that the 5 pending question? 6 MR. GUZY: Which areas to plant and when. 7 MR. BURGESS: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, when the stand in the 9 field has deteriorated to the point where nothing's going 10 to come back, then you disk it up and replant it. 11 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Is there a common expectation 12 about how many years that is or how many growing seasons? 13 A. No. It just depends on the area, soil type 14 and the climate. 15 Q. So it may vary over U.S. Sugar's holdings in 16 this area? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What would be a range? 19 A. It would vary from no crops to probably -- 20 we have a few maybe eight or nine years old. 21 Q. Is there some kind of management unit that's 22 used for making these decisions? I know you referred 23 before to section. Is that what you might consider a 24 management unit for U.S. Sugar's farming? 25 A. We have farms and within the farms there are BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 45 1 sections. Is that what you mean? 2 Q. Yes. I'm trying to understand how decisions 3 are made with respect to basically planting and eventually 4 with respect to harvesting. I wonder if they're made at 5 the level of each individual field, or general geographic 6 areas, or farms, or sections? 7 A. No. They're looked at -- each field is 8 looked at. 9 Q. Again, how many farms are there within each 10 division? 11 A. Well, there's a total of around 20 or 21 12 farms. They fall under the management of 13 farm 13 managers. Some farm managers have more than one farm 14 under their management. 15 Q. I see. What kind of decision making 16 authority do the farm managers have? What's their role? 17 A. Well, they mainly advise if they see 18 something. They don't have the final say-so as to when to 19 disk up and replant a field. 20 Q. And that decision, as you said, rests with 21 Mr. Polhill? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Is subsidence a concern to U.S. Sugar's 24 farming of sugarcane in this area? 25 A. Not really. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 46 1 Q. Is it something that you would say is 2 occurring in this area? 3 A. Yeah, it's occurring. 4 Q. When you say it's not really a concern, what 5 do you mean? 6 A. It's not occurring at a rate -- in the 26 7 years that I have been with them, I have not seen a field 8 that's come out of production because of subsidence. 9 Q. During those 26 years how much subsidence 10 have you observed in these areas? 11 A. I have no guess as to what it would be. I 12 have no measure to go by. 13 Q. Does anyone at U.S. Sugar take those kinds 14 of measurements? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Does the level of organic soils underneath 17 the -- let me phrase it this way. Does the thickness of 18 the organic soils underneath the crop vary from farm field 19 to farm field at U.S. Sugar? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What might be the range of that? 22 A. I don't know. I haven't done any probing. 23 Q. Do you know if anyone does? 24 A. No. Maybe in our Research Department. 25 Q. Do you manage at all differently depending BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 47 1 upon the thickness of the muck? 2 A. Manage how? 3 Q. Manage the farming. 4 A. In what way? 5 Q. That's what I'm asking you. Is there 6 anything you do differently depending upon how thick the 7 muck is? 8 A. We know the cane still has to be planted, 9 and cultivated and harvested. We don't have separate 10 operations within any of those planting, growing or 11 harvesting operations because of where it's at. 12 Q. Any affect on water management practices as 13 a result of that? 14 A. Primarily you go by the elevation of the 15 ground rather than by the thickness of the muck, as far as 16 your water management practices. 17 Q. What fertilizers does U.S. Sugar use in the 18 growing of sugarcane? 19 A. Our Research Department takes the soil 20 samples from our fields. They make the soil test, do the 21 soil test. They make the fertilizer recommendations based 22 on the soil test. They register those as a mixture number 23 and give it to us as a mixture number and the right 24 maker. We don't see the analysis of the fertilizer. We 25 only see the mixture number for the field in so many BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 48 1 pounds per acre. 2 Q. A mixture number in lay terms means what? 3 A. Number 48, number 101. 4 Q. What kind of scale is that on? What do the 5 numbers designate? 6 A. It's just a number. It's that mix is a 7 mixture number 48. 8 Q. It's a mix of soil and fertilizer? 9 A. No. It's a mix of -- it's the analysis of 10 the fertilizer that you would put out that identifies 11 that, and all we know it by is a mixture number. 12 Q. I see. You don't know anything about the 13 composition of the fertilizer? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You get an instruction then from the 16 Research Department that says use this particular kind of 17 fertilizer, referring to it by number; is that fair to 18 say? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Are you instructed as to the amount to 21 apply? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who makes that determination? 24 A. Research Department. 25 Q. Do you deal with individuals in that BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 49 1 department? 2 A. I think the recommendations come from Hank 3 Andres. 4 Q. What is his position? 5 A. He's the department head. 6 Q. Is there any back and forth ever as to the 7 appropriateness of the recommendation? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Does your department then carry out those 10 recommendations? 11 A. That's correct. We don't have to worry 12 about that. The Research Department takes care of it for 13 us. So it's one less thing for us to have to worry about. 14 Q. What different mixtures are used? 15 A. I have no idea. 16 Q. Do you have a ballpark estimate? 17 A. No, sir, I sure don't. 18 Q. Could it be more than a thousand different 19 mixtures? 20 A. I don't know. I don't have them in my 21 files, and I don't deal with them. 22 Q. You don't deal with that at all? 23 A. I just know that's how it happens. 24 Q. Who would know about how many mixtures there 25 are? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 50 1 A. The superintendent would know and I think -- 2 well, he might -- I think you're going to depose Wayne 3 Beardsley. He's a superintendent. He would know. 4 Q. It's basically at the division level then 5 where those decisions are made? 6 A. What decisions? 7 Q. I'm sorry. That people are familiar with 8 implementing the recommendation for the Research 9 Department. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That's where it would be? 12 A. Yes. At the division level. 13 Q. Has that been the practice in the 26 years 14 that you've been with the company? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you know what the Research Department 17 looks for when it makes that analysis? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Do you know what their goal is with respect 20 to fertilizer? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know if they use phosphorus? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Do you know in what form? 25 A. No, sir. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 51 1 Q. How is the application quantified? Is there 2 a per acre rate or a linear foot rate? 3 A. It's pounds per acre. 4 Q. Is there a standard practice with respect to 5 the U.S. Sugar fields or does that vary field per field 6 how many pounds per acre? 7 A. It will vary. 8 Q. What is the range of that? 9 A. I don't remember. It's been so long since 10 I've dealt with it. 11 Q. Again, the people who would know are the 12 Research Department and the superintendents? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is that something that's changed over the 15 years, the pounds per acre? 16 A. I don't know. Like I say, I have not dealt 17 with it in 12, 15 years, probably, directly. 18 Q. I take it you also wouldn't know whether the 19 mixtures themselves have changed; the nature of the 20 fertilizers used? 21 A. That's correct. I wouldn't know. 22 Q. Are you familiar with particular brand names 23 of fertilizers that are used or sources for fertilizers? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. What about the application of herbicides? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 52 1 Was it done in the same way? Was the decision whether to 2 apply herbicides made also by the Research Department? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. That's something that's made by the 5 Agriculture Department? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. How is that decision made? 8 A. By observing the field, and looking at the 9 condition and what the pest is, and applying whatever 10 pesticide is necessary to eliminate the pest. 11 Q. Is the decision as to which herbicide or 12 pesticide to use made by the Agriculture Department? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What level on that chain is that decision 15 made? 16 A. Well, the farm managers, superintendents, 17 the foreman. 18 Q. I think you told me before, am I right, that 19 there's really not any particular company guidance as to 20 which herbicides or pesticides to use? 21 A. That's correct. There's a very limited 22 number of herbicides labeled for use on sugarcane and the 23 same for insecticides. So we don't have a wide range of 24 choices. 25 Q. About how many are indicated for use? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 53 1 A. Probably less than a half a dozen I would 2 say. 3 Q. Which does U.S. Sugar use? 4 A. Which herbicides? 5 Q. Sure. Let's start with that. 6 A. Asulox, Atrazine, Evik, Round-up. That's 7 about it, I guess. 8 Q. And pesticides? 9 A. Primarily I guess Asana. Then we use a soil 10 insecticide at planting, Mocap or Thimet. 11 Q. That's immediately prior to planting? 12 A. At the time it's planted. 13 Q. At the time a root stalk is planted? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is it planted with that pesticide? 16 A. Well, the stalk is laid in the furrow and 17 the covering rig that covers the cane up -- just prior to 18 covering it drops in the soil the insecticide such as 19 Mocap. There's several on the market. 20 Q. Is there any training for herbicide or 21 pesticide applicators? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What kind of training? 24 A. They're licensed and the supervisors are 25 licensed as mixer/loaders. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 54 1 Q. Do you have any supervisor responsibilities 2 with respect to making sure that they're doing their job 3 as they're supposed to? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Who does? 6 A. The superintendent. 7 Q. In general, with respect to storage of these 8 materials and disposal of them, who has the responsibility 9 at U.S. Sugar to ensure that regulations are complied 10 with? 11 A. Again, the superintendents. 12 Q. Is there an Environmental Department? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It's a separate department? 15 A. Yes. I forgot to mention that one when I 16 named the other ten. 17 Q. Do you have any contact with that 18 department? 19 A. What do you mean by "contact"? Have I ever 20 spoken to them? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. About what kinds of things? 24 A. Nothing in particular. But I mean they deal 25 primarily with the superintendents on matters involving BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 55 1 the environment. 2 Q. When you described before your 3 responsibilities as concerning liaison with other 4 departments, would that include the Environment 5 Department? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What kind of things do you act as liaison 8 with? 9 A. Anything that may come up involving our 10 department or their department. 11 Q. Can you give me some examples? 12 A. I can't think of any. We have -- you know, 13 he meets with our people and observes what we do as the 14 environmental compliance officer for the company. 15 Q. That's what you mean by "he"? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Who is that? 18 A. Peter Briggs. 19 Q. Does Mr. Briggs have a staff? 20 A. He's got a secretary. But he has an 21 environmental committee within the company, and people 22 from different departments -- 23 Q. Serve on that committee? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who from the Agriculture Department serves BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 56 1 on that committee? 2 A. We have Mike Dyal, D-Y-A-L. 3 Q. D-Y-A-L? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. What is his position? 6 A. He's technical assistant, I believe. I'm 7 not sure. 8 Q. Which office is he in? 9 A. Or technical director. He's technical 10 director, and he works out of our office. 11 Q. What are his responsibilities? 12 A. Basically the same as what the technical 13 assistant's description was in the past. But he also is 14 our environmental point man for our department you might 15 say. 16 Q. Have you had any discussions with Mr. Briggs 17 about any concerns of nutrient runoff from north fields? 18 A. No. 19 Q. How about Mr. Dyal? 20 A. No. 21 MR. GUZY: Let's take a five-minute break. 22 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 23 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Mr. Patrick, when we were 24 talking about -- 25 MR. BURGESS: Parker. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 57 1 MR. GUZY: Excuse me, Parker. 2 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) When we were talking before 3 about the SWIM Plan and your testimony that you hadn't 4 read or analyzed the SWIM Plan and its considered effect 5 upon your sugarcane farming operation; is that an accurate 6 statement? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Has anyone in the Agriculture Department 9 made that kind of analysis? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Do you know who at the company has done that 12 kind of analysis? 13 A. No. Unless it's Bubba Wade. In fact, I 14 have been told that I will need to review the SWIM Plan 15 and read up on it and do that, but I have not done it yet. 16 Q. I think we had been talking, before we took 17 our break, about herbicides and pesticides and their use. 18 Are there other agricultural chemicals that U.S. Sugar 19 uses? 20 A. No, sir, not that I remember. 21 Q. Do you use any desiccants in your process? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Any ripeners? 24 A. We use ripeners, yes. A plant growth 25 regulator. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 58 1 Q. Are you able to give me brand names for -- 2 A. We use Polado, P-O-L-A-D-O. 3 Q. And for the plant growth regulator is that 4 the same? 5 A. It's the same. 6 Q. It's the same? 7 A. Yeah. That's a water ripener, basically. 8 Q. How is that applied? 9 A. Aerial. 10 Q. Who makes the determination whether to apply 11 the ripener? 12 A. The overall policy as to how much -- how 13 many fields to treat is made by the department head. 14 Q. Do you participate in that decision? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What are the considerations? 17 A. Basically if it's going to be harvested 18 prior to or the middle of December, then you would put a 19 ripener on it. 20 Q. The harvest season runs from when to when? 21 A. It starts about the third week in October 22 and will run to about the third or fourth week in March. 23 Q. What is the rate of application of the 24 ripener? 25 A. We have two different rates; two ounces and BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 59 1 five ounces per acre. 2 Q. And each rate signifies what? 3 A. Pardon? 4 Q. Why are there two rates? Each rate 5 signifies what? 6 A. We put the higher rate on fields that are 7 going to be disked up and abandoned, and the lower rate on 8 the fields that are not going to be abandoned. 9 Q. What percentage of the fields on an annual 10 basis are disked up and abandoned? 11 A. I don't know if we have a percentage or 12 not. We usually plant anywhere from probably 20 to 28,000 13 acres every year. It varies from year to year. 14 Q. How is the planting process done? You had 15 mentioned disking. 16 A. Yeah. You prepare the land and then you 17 have a furrow plow that opens up a furrow. You have the 18 seed cane cut already, and you just haul your seed cane 19 from the seed field to the field you're going to plant. 20 Wagons are pulled through the field, and there are four 21 people on the wagon and four walking behind the wagon. 22 They drop the seed cane off in the furrow. The ones 23 behind it chop it up into sections about three feet long 24 and plant -- each crew will plant four rows at a time as 25 it goes through the field. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 60 1 Q. What is the season for harvesting of rice? 2 A. Rice harvest usually starts the first week 3 in July and should be completed probably by the end of 4 August. 5 Q. When is planting done for the rice? 6 A. The planting is done around the first of 7 March -- begun. 8 Q. How many acres of planting rice, roughly? 9 A. Between 2 and 3,000 acres. 10 Q. Those are the same acres that you talked 11 about before, the fallow acres? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. Are there any fallow fields that do not have 14 rice planted on them? 15 A. Yes. There may be a few. 16 Q. What would the reason for that be? 17 A. Well, just maybe not enough time to get it 18 all done. We only have so many harvesters or combines 19 that can combine the rice. So we can't put everything in 20 rice at the moment. 21 Q. Why is it that rice is used in the fallowing 22 fields? 23 A. Well, it's a good cover crop and it does 24 generate some revenue. We have the people, and the 25 equipment, and the land, so it fits in real well. But BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 61 1 rice in and of itself is not an economically feasible crop 2 in south Florida. You can't make any money off of it. 3 But as a rotation crop with sugarcane, then you can pretty 4 much break even, but that's about it. 5 Q. What is the reason for leaving the fields 6 fallow? 7 A. You maybe can't get to them all in time to 8 get them all in in rice. 9 Q. I'm sorry. I meant what is the reason for 10 not planting them in sugarcane? 11 A. Again, you can't get them all planted in 12 time. A lot of times you have to put fields in long-term 13 land preparation because of the grass problem. If you 14 don't correct -- if you plant it right back, that grass 15 problem would be there for the new cycle of cane that you 16 just planted and hurt production. So when you get that 17 back, you have to put it in long-term land preparation, 18 either in rice or disking to control the grass problem. 19 Q. Are there any concerns about productivity of 20 the fields that lead you to decide to leave the field 21 fallow or planting rice? 22 A. No, not really. 23 Q. So crop rotation is not done for 24 productivity reasons; is that what you're saying? 25 A. I don't understand what you mean. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 62 1 Q. When I say, "crop rotation", I mean 2 sugarcane to rice. That the decision to put a field in 3 rice or leave it fallow is not done to help increase the 4 productivity of sugarcane in the future. 5 A. In some areas rice production -- rice 6 production does help the sugarcane production afterwards. 7 In some areas it doesn't. It's not an exact science. 8 You're not always sure that you'll get increased cane 9 production from fallowing rice. 10 Q. How does it help in those areas where it 11 does? 12 A. We really don't know. We just know in some 13 cases it does. In some cases it doesn't. We don't know 14 the reasons why. 15 Q. Is the decision whether to leave a field 16 fallow or planted in rice, does that decision depend at 17 all upon concerns about productivity of the sugarcane 18 crop? 19 A. No. 20 Q. It's more the manpower concerns you were 21 talking about? 22 A. Yes. Primarily we put everything in rice 23 that we can. 24 Q. Maybe we're not connecting. 25 A. Basically anything that's fallow we put in BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 63 1 rice. 2 Q. The decision as to whether you put it in 3 rice or leave it fallow -- let's take that as a category, 4 rice or fallow. That decision versus sugarcane 5 replanting. 6 A. You're talking about not leaving it fallow 7 and planting it right back in sugarcane? 8 Q. Right. How is that decision made? How do 9 you decide what to do? 10 A. Well, again, the first decision is made as 11 to whether to successive plant it or not. I mean harvest 12 it, disk it up and plant it right back and harvest it the 13 next year. 14 Q. What are the considerations? 15 A. As I mentioned, the grass problems that you 16 might have in the field that need to be taken care of. 17 And the only way to do that is through long-term land 18 preparation, either by disking it or planting it in rice. 19 Q. Any other concerns, any other factors that 20 led you to do one or the other? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Is there a general productivity goal on a 23 per acre basis that you have for the sugarcane fields? 24 A. We estimate each field every year and what 25 we think it will do, yes. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 64 1 Q. It varies from field to field? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What kind of range are you talking about? 4 A. It depends on what year it is. 5 Q. From your experience what is the range? 6 A. I have seen fields cut seven tons per acre, 7 and I've seen fields cut 104 tons per acre. 8 Q. What's the average? 9 A. At U.S. Sugar probably around 37, 38. 10 Sometimes higher and sometimes lower. 11 Q. The annual factors which influence that are 12 what? 13 A. The what? 14 Q. The factors that year to year change that 15 average. What are those? 16 A. That change what? 17 Q. The average productivity that you're talking 18 about. You said some years it might be low, some -- 19 A. Growing conditions for that crop, you know, 20 weather. All those things that go into making things grow 21 or not grow. 22 Q. Precipitation? Temperature? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Amount of sunlight? Those kinds of things? 25 A. Yes. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 65 1 Q. For sugarcane farming, what practices do you 2 use with respect to water management? What are you trying 3 to accomplish, basically? 4 A. We're trying to -- if conditions exist 5 whereby the cane is suffering from not enough water, then 6 we try to irrigate and give it some water. If conditions 7 are that it has too much water, then we try to get rid of 8 the water. We have to look at each individual field and 9 area and see what kind of shape it's in and then decide 10 what it needs, if anything. 11 Q. At what level in the organizational 12 structure are those decisions made? 13 A. They're made, you know, by the farm managers 14 in the field -- in the farming. 15 Q. What level physically are they made? What 16 unit of water management is used? 17 A. Well, it depends on the area and how the 18 water control structures and facilities are set up in that 19 area. Some areas may cover five or six sections and some 20 may cover 20 sections. 21 Q. Is that the range, basically? 22 A. Well, I haven't counted them up. It just 23 depends on what that water control structure in that 24 particular area is set up to handle. 25 Q. When you say, "water control structure", BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 66 1 what precisely do you mean? 2 A. Condensation, or irrigation pump, or 3 whatever the water control facility would be. 4 Q. Who within the organization has 5 responsibility for maintaining and operating those? 6 A. Our department operates them and then we 7 have a Field Construction Department that maintains them. 8 Q. You mentioned irrigation and you mentioned 9 moving water off the land, flood control. Between those 10 two which do you regard as the more important principle? 11 A. It depends on the area. Some areas, you 12 know, are wet areas that you have to be more concerned 13 with being too wet and then other areas are dry areas that 14 you have to be concerned with irrigation. So it's just 15 each area has its own unique characteristics that a farm 16 manager has to manage. 17 Q. Is it the elevation of an area that 18 determines that? 19 A. Sometimes it's the elevation or difference 20 in elevation and soil type. Several different things, you 21 know, go to make an area a wet area as opposed to a dry 22 area. 23 Q. Anything else? Elevation, soil type. 24 Proximity to the station, effectiveness of the canals? 25 A. Yes. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 67 1 Q. Those might all be factors? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The water that's used on U.S. Sugar property 4 for irrigation purposes that comes through these water 5 control structures, where does that come from? 6 A. It comes from the main primary canals that 7 are in the area. 8 Q. Meaning the water management district 9 canals? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Does U.S. Sugar pay for its use of that 12 water? 13 A. I'm really not sure. I don't handle any of 14 the taxes for the company, so I'm not sure what the tax 15 structure is and how much is paid to whom and for what. 16 Q. Do you know who in the organizational 17 structure would have that information? 18 A. Bubba Wade probably would. 19 Q. Is there a goal as to pumping capabilities 20 for U.S. Sugar properties? How much water, so many inches 21 of water off the property in a 24-hour period, for 22 example? 23 A. There may be, but I don't know what that 24 figure is. Our Engineering Department designs our pump 25 stations. And they might have a figure, but I wouldn't BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 68 1 know what it is. 2 Q. As basically a farm manager, do you have a 3 sense of what you need, basically, to make the system 4 work? 5 A. I've never really looked at it in that 6 context. 7 Q. What's the goal with respect to inundation 8 of the root zone of the sugarcane crop? What were you 9 trying to do? 10 A. I don't know what you mean. 11 Q. Where ideally should the water level be with 12 respect to the root zone? 13 A. It depends on what the field conditions 14 are. If it's dry, it can be higher than when it's wet. 15 Q. If it's dry where would it be? 16 A. You want to get it as high as you can to get 17 moisture up to the root zone. 18 Q. And if it's wet where do you want it to be? 19 A. Further down where some of that water would 20 move down and not kill the root system. But as far as any 21 measurement, I don't have any goal. 22 Q. If the root zone stays inundated, how long a 23 period can it stay that way before there's damage to the 24 crop? 25 A. It depends on how big the cane is. The BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 69 1 bigger the cane the more it can stand. And in the 2 summertime typically it could stand more than it could 3 this time of the year. 4 Q. For cane that's been producing for several 5 seasons, does that affect its size or productivity? 6 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't understand. 8 MR. GUZY: I didn't hear you, Rick. 9 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form. I don't 10 know what affects size or productivity. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand. 12 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) You used the term larger 13 cane, and I think you said it could stand more 14 inundation. When you say larger, are you referring solely 15 to where it is in the growing season? 16 A. Yes. What stage in the growing season it 17 is. 18 Q. For multi year cane, does that affect its 19 size at all? Is it going to be the same size, basically, 20 next year as it was last year? 21 A. What do you mean by size? Height or -- 22 Q. I don't know. That's what I'm asking you. 23 A. I don't either. 24 Q. Would the height vary from year to year? 25 A. You mean the same field or all the fields? BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 70 1 Q. Let's take the same field. The same root 2 stalk even. 3 A. It may, depending on the growing conditions 4 preceding the time when you took the measurements. 5 Q. There's not a general principle or anything 6 like that, a general thing that happens? 7 A. Not that I -- if what I understand you're 8 asking me is correct, then no. 9 Q. That's probably true for the diameter as 10 well of the stalk? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. When you said a larger cane can stand 13 inundation -- I'm just trying to understand. I'm not 14 trying to trick you or anything like that. 15 A. Right. Now, one of the canes has just been 16 harvested, so it hasn't started regrowth yet. It's real 17 small. Later on in the spring and summer the cane will be 18 this tall and can withstand more water. 19 Q. "This tall" is three or four feet, so the 20 court reporter can get it. 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. For the cane -- right after it's been 23 harvested and it's short, basically the short cane, how 24 long do you think that it can have its roots inundated? 25 A. It, again, would vary on soil type. There's BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 71 1 no set number of days that I could tell you that would 2 happen every time. 3 Q. How about for the large cane? The same 4 answer? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What about the soil type affects the cane? 7 What is it about the soil type? 8 A. I don't know. It's just -- in some areas it 9 can withstand longer than other areas. There are 10 different muck types. 11 Q. In the years that you've been there, the 26 12 years you have been at U.S. Sugar, have you ever known to 13 lose a crop due to flooding? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Why don't you tell me about that, please. 16 A. We're disking some out now from the rains we 17 have had this winter. Probably around 700 acres worth. 18 Q. At what location is that? 19 A. Well, it's several different locations all 20 over our property. I don't have the exact field numbers. 21 The superintendents have told me we have to disk some cane 22 out because water has killed it, too much water. 23 Q. It's not a single location, but it's 24 interspersed throughout the property? 25 A. Yes. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 72 1 Q. Why was it that water was unable to be 2 effected -- let me ask you the premise first. 3 Is it true that water was not able to be 4 effectively removed from these areas to allow the crop to 5 survive? 6 A. Due to the excessive amount of rainfall that 7 we got. 8 Q. Was there more rain than the pumps could 9 handle? 10 A. I guess it was more than the pumps were 11 designed for. We're trying some of these BMPs and 12 experimenting with these pump canal level BMPs and this 13 reduced pumping. We're still working with those stages to 14 try to find one that will accomplish both our goal to 15 reduce pumping and to keep from killing the crop. So 16 that's why we're still working with those -- I just pulled 17 them out of my files to give to you today, and we're still 18 modifying them. 19 Q. Do you attribute the loss of this crop or 20 any loss of this crop to those BMPs you're talking about? 21 A. I think some of them have been affected by 22 them, yes. And that's why we're making adjustments now. 23 Q. How did you come to that conclusion? For 24 example, did you go out and -- 25 A. With the guidelines that we have set up, we BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 73 1 did reach the trigger pumps to crank the pump before the 2 cane had been killed, suffered damage. 3 Q. What I'm asking is how do you come to that 4 conclusion? What do you base that on? Do you base it on 5 discussions with people? Your own observations? 6 A. Both. My observations and discussions with 7 people. I've seen some of the fields. 8 Q. Let's take the observations. Where did you 9 go and what did you look at? 10 A. I went to a couple of areas that our 11 superintendents had pointed out to me and just to look at 12 the fields myself. 13 Q. What did you see? 14 A. I saw no cane growing in the field. 15 Q. I should have asked what didn't you see. 16 What kind of discussions did you have? 17 A. With myself? I mean I was by myself when I 18 went to see the fields. 19 Q. How about -- I think you said you based your 20 thinking that BMPs might be part of the cause of the loss 21 of this field on both observations and discussion. What 22 discussions did you have about this? 23 A. No. I'm saying I looked at the areas where 24 I saw the fields and the levels that -- 25 Q. Right. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 74 1 A. -- the canals were in. And they were too 2 high and therefore unable to dry the fields up before the 3 cane died. 4 Q. You also talked to some of the farm 5 managers? 6 A. Superintendents. 7 Q. Superintendents. Did they have the same 8 opinion? 9 A. Yes. And I'll say that's why we're still 10 working with these BMPs, to get them where they will 11 accomplish both reduced pumping and keep from killing the 12 cane. We think we can do that once we get the stages in 13 the correct levels for each of the different basins. We 14 think it will accomplish both goals. 15 Q. We will be able to get into that in a little 16 bit more detail when we get to that document. I 17 appreciate that. 18 Have you, in your 26 years of experience at 19 U.S. Sugar, seen other occasions where crops were lost due 20 to excess water? 21 A. I don't remember being this much -- you 22 know, we have isolated fields here and there from one year 23 to the next, but I don't remember anything as big as this 24 at one time. 25 Q. From one year to the next is it a pretty BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 75 1 regular occurrence that some of the fields would be lost? 2 A. No, not really. Like I say, this was an 3 unusually wet winter. 4 Q. Have you been around for any wet winters? 5 A. I don't remember one being this wet, but 6 maybe in this 26 years there may have been one. If you 7 look back on the rainfall records, this has been a fairly 8 unusual winter as far as precipitation is concerned. 9 Q. Have you, in your period with the company, 10 ever known a crop to be lost due to drought? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why don't you tell me about that, please. 13 A. I just remember in 1981 when we had the last 14 drought, the lake level got down below ten. We had some 15 cane damage as a result of that. I don't remember if we 16 actually disked fields up, but I know production was lower 17 than we would have expected as a result of it. 18 Q. So the level of production may have been 19 decreased, but you don't have any memory of the loss of 20 whole areas? 21 A. I don't remember fields being disked up. 22 There may have been. I just don't recall any. 23 Q. Is there some optimum water table level that 24 you strive for to achieve a maximum yield? 25 A. No, not really. It depends on the area. BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 76 1 Some areas can have a higher water table than other 2 areas. You just have to know the areas and know what 3 you're working with. 4 Q. Who makes that kind of decision? 5 A. Nobody has made a decision as to what the 6 level is. Like I say, you just -- by observing the field 7 conditions, you determine what's best for the cane. 8 Q. Is it the superintendent or the farm 9 manager? 10 A. Well, in the past it's been the farm 11 manager. Now that we have these guidelines to go by, then 12 that decision is made for them already, and they just 13 follow the guidelines up. But in the past the farm 14 managers -- if it clouded up they cranked the pumps to 15 protect the crop. And then they knew they could always 16 get the water back. Now things are different and they 17 have the schedules to go by. And we're still on -- like I 18 say, working with the schedules. 19 Q. So the practice in the past was to pump 20 whenever there was basically the threat of rain? 21 A. Sometimes you would if the field was already 22 wet and saturated and you could see rain was imminent. 23 Then you would go ahead and crank the pump. Now you wait 24 until after the rain has come and wait eight hours at 25 least before you make a decision whether to crank the pump BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622 77 1 or not. 2 Q. When you say they could -- if they pump too 3 much they could get the water back, what did you mean? 4 A. Well, I mean if the rain didn't come, they 5 could just open the gate and the water would come back in. 6 Q. Is it generally true that there's much more 7 of a need to pump during the wet season than there is 8 during the dry season? 9 A. Oh, yeah. 10 Q. What about water management practices with 11 respect to the rice production? What is the goal there? 12 A. Well, you just have to keep the level of 13 water, you know, coming up with the rice and keep it high 14 enough to prevent grass and weeds from germanating, yet 15 enough water there to grow the rice crop. 16 Q. Is the r