1
1 STATE OF FLORIDA
DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
2
3
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )
4 OF FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural )
Cooperative Marketing Association, )
5 ROTH FARMS, INC., AND WEDGEWORTH )
FARMS, INC., )
6 )
and )
7 )
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) Nos. 92-3038
8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) 92-3039
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) 92-3040
9 )
and )
10 )
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
11 ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, )
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )
12 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
)
13 Petitioners, )
)
14 vs. )
)
15 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an Agency of the State )
16 of Florida, )
)
17 Respondent, )
)
18 and )
)
19 MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF )
FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF )
20 AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT )
OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, )
21 FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, the )
FLORIDA AUDUBON SOCIETY, and the )
22 SIERRA CLUB, )
)
23 Intervenors. )
___________________________________)
24
25
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
2
1 DEPOSITION OF WALTER PARKER
2
3 1 Clearlake Center, Suite 1403
250 Australian Avenue South
4 West Palm Beach, FL 33401
February 9, 1993
5 9:00 o'clock A. M.
6
7
APPEARANCES:
8
PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK
9 BY: RICK BURGESS, ESQ.
One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636
10 Two South Biscayne Blvd.
Miami, FL 33131
11 (305) 358-3000
Appearing on behalf of the Petitioners, Florida
12 Sugar Cane League, Inc.; United States Sugar
Corporation; and New Hope South, Inc.
13
POPHAM HAIK
14 BY: PATRICK S. COUSINS, ESQ.
100 S. E. Second Street
15 P. O. Box 019101
Miami, FL 33131
16 (305) 530-0050
Appearing on behalf of the Respondent.
17
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
18 BY: GARY S. GUZY, ESQ.
10th & Pennsylvania Avenue, N. W.
19 Washington, D. C. 20530
(202) 514-2689
20 Appearing on behalf of the Intervenors.
21
22
23
24
25
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
3
1 The deposition of WALTER PARKER, a witness
2 of lawful age, taken for the purpose of discovery as
3 evidence in the above-styled cause, pending in the State
4 of Florida, Division of Administrative Hearings, pursuant
5 to Notice, before Debrah Veroni, a Shorthand Reporter and
6 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, at
7 the time and place aforesaid.
8 ------------------
9 I N D E X
10
WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT
11
WALTER PARKER
12 By Mr. Guzy 4
By Mr. Burgess 153
13 By Mr. Guzy 154
14
15 EXHIBITS
16 PARKER EXHIBIT PAGE
17 No. 1 92
2 92
18 3 92
4 92
19 5 92
6 92
20 7 92
8 145
21
22
23
24
25
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 WHEREUPON:
2 WALTER PARKER,
3 called as a witness by the Intervenors, having been first
4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. GUZY:
7 Q. Would you please state your name for the
8 record and your address?
9 A. Walter C. Parker, Jr., 608 Ridgeview Circle,
10 Clewiston.
11 Q. Mr. Parker, my name is Gary Guzy. I'm an
12 attorney with the U.S. Department of Justice for
13 Respondent-Intervenors in this action.
14 Have you ever been deposed before?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. Approximately how many times?
17 A. Probably all together maybe three or four
18 times. I can't remember exactly.
19 Q. What kind of actions were they?
20 A. Primarily related to our H2A Foreign Labor
21 Program litigation brought about.
22 Q. Generally, I take it then you're familiar
23 with the way depositions work?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. There are three things that I would ask you
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1 to keep in mind during this deposition. One is if at any
2 point you don't understand a question of mine, please ask
3 me to repeat it and I will be happy to do so. I want to
4 make sure that before you answer you understand my
5 question. Also, if you answer verbally, that will help
6 the court reporter to get things down. Lastly, if you
7 want to take a break, just let me know.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. There's coffee in the other deposition room,
10 so you can get that at any time.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. What documents did you review before the
13 deposition today?
14 A. The documents that I had in my file that I
15 handed to you before the start of the deposition.
16 Q. Any others?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Did you receive a notice of this deposition?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Did you review that?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Did you do anything else to prepare for
23 today's deposition?
24 A. No, sir. Other than meeting with my
25 attorney -- our attorney yesterday.
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1 Q. Did you meet with anyone else?
2 A. Bubba Wade was also at that meeting.
3 Q. That was the meeting yesterday with your
4 attorney?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. Did you have any other conversations with
7 anyone about today's deposition?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Could you tell me a little bit about your
10 educational background. What's the most schooling that
11 you've done?
12 A. Two years of college.
13 Q. Where was that at?
14 A. Palm Beach Junior College in Lake Worth.
15 Q. When was that?
16 A. 1966.
17 Q. Did you complete a degree program?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. What was your area of study there?
20 A. At that time I was studying architectural
21 drafting and design.
22 Q. Have you done any course work since that
23 time?
24 A. No, I haven't.
25 Q. Any seminars or informal training sessions?
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1 A. Yes. There has been several, I guess, over
2 the years that may be presented by IFAS or different --
3 other state agencies that related to our operations that I
4 attended.
5 Q. Are there any that you specifically
6 remember?
7 A. Not really. It's been awhile since I have
8 been to any. I just know over the years --
9 Q. When do you think you last attended one?
10 A. Probably about four years ago. Four, five
11 years ago.
12 Q. Do you remember what that was about?
13 A. It was on nutrients, fertilizers for
14 sugarcane.
15 Q. How long did that course last?
16 A. A week.
17 Q. Full time for the week?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were there any course materials that were
20 distributed?
21 A. No, sir, not that I remember.
22 Q. Can you tell me in a little bit more detail
23 what kinds of subjects that course covered?
24 A. Basically it talked about or instructed
25 about soil sampling and analyzing the soil, and then
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 reading the samples, the analysis from the soil and from
2 that, you know, determining crop nutrient requirements.
3 Q. Did you receive any kind of certification as
4 a result of that course?
5 A. No, sir, not that I remember.
6 Q. How did you come to attend that course?
7 A. Our company asked for it, so we sent a group
8 of people within our department to it. And the University
9 of Florida set it up for us, and it was in Gainesville.
10 Q. Let's go back to I believe it was 1966 when
11 you spent two years in college. What did you do after
12 that?
13 A. Went on active duty with the National
14 Guard. I was in the National Guard at the time. While I
15 was on active duty in the National Guard, I got married
16 and then when I came back I went to work for U.S. Sugar.
17 Q. Was that the first time you had worked for
18 U.S. Sugar?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What year was that?
21 A. 1967.
22 Q. Did you go immediately from high school to
23 Palm Beach Junior College?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. What was your first position with U.S.
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 Sugar?
2 A. I was a harvest foreman over on harvest
3 crew.
4 Q. Where was that located?
5 A. It was in our Prewitt Plantation in Eastern
6 Division.
7 Q. Is that within the EAA?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did that involve the harvesting of
10 sugarcane?
11 A. Yes, it did.
12 Q. Was that the only crop involved?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How long did you hold that position for?
15 A. One year.
16 Q. Then what did you do?
17 A. I became an assistant field chemist working
18 out of the Eastern Division staff office at U.S. Sugar.
19 Q. Where is that office located?
20 A. Bryant, B-R-Y-A-N-T.
21 Q. How long did you hold that position for?
22 A. I can't remember how many years. Maybe
23 three or four.
24 Q. What did you do after that?
25 A. Then I was field chemist.
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 Q. Also in the office in Bryant?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. How long did you do that for?
4 A. Again, maybe two, three years.
5 Q. What came next?
6 A. Technical assistant for Eastern Division
7 Agriculture, same office. That was until March of '78.
8 Q. After that?
9 A. In March of '78 I left the company and went
10 to work for another farm. I was general manager of
11 Sucrose Growers. It no longer has that name. It's a
12 sugarcane farm.
13 Q. Where was that farm located?
14 A. It's east of Belle Glade.
15 Q. How large an operation is that?
16 A. About 10,000 acres.
17 Q. Is that farm still in existence?
18 A. Not as that. It was purchased by New Hope.
19 Q. When did that purchase occur?
20 A. In 1979 sometime.
21 Q. Is that how long you stayed with them?
22 A. No. I stayed for about a year after that.
23 I left in May of 1980 and went back to work for U.S.
24 Sugar.
25 Q. And assumed what position?
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1 A. Technical assistant, but then I worked out
2 of the department head's office in Clewiston with
3 responsibilities for both the Eastern and Western
4 Divisions.
5 Q. How long did you do that for?
6 A. About three or four years again.
7 Q. After that what did you do?
8 A. I think the next step was administrative
9 assistant to the senior vice president.
10 Q. Is that your current position?
11 A. No. My current title is assistant to the
12 senior vice president, which will be the next one.
13 Q. When did you assume this position?
14 A. About four, five years ago.
15 Q. I would like to briefly go back and run
16 through these and get a sense of what your
17 responsibilities were. Starting in 1967 as harvest
18 foreman, what was your assignment?
19 A. Supervise the harvest crew responsible for
20 cutting, loading and hauling, delivering the cane to the
21 mill for that crew.
22 Q. How large is the harvest crew?
23 A. It was a hand-cut crew. It had about 220
24 hand-cut cutters.
25 Q. How large is or was the crew at Prewitt
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 Plantation back then?
2 A. It was the same size as it is right now. If
3 I can just count up the sections. It looks about 13 or 14
4 sections, a section being 640 acres, so --
5 Q. I won't make you do the math this early in
6 the morning. That gives me a sense of it, thanks.
7 Were there a number of cutting crews or was
8 there just one that you were a foreman in?
9 A. I was only over one.
10 Q. There were other crews --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- that worked on that plantation?
13 A. And in that division.
14 Q. You've referred -- and I think for the next
15 position you refer to the Eastern Division. Can you give
16 me a rough idea what kind of breakdowns there were in U.S.
17 Sugar? How is it structured?
18 A. From my department we have the Agriculture
19 Department. We have a department head who is the senior
20 vice president. I report directly to him. We also have
21 in his staff, which is the Agriculture Administration
22 Department, I guess, or section for our department, we
23 have support personnel that work for us with
24 responsibilities over both divisions. Then the two
25 divisions we have are separated geographically by, say,
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 the City of South Bay and the North River Canal. I guess
2 anything east of that is our Eastern Division. And it
3 runs around the southeast and east of Lake Okeechobee,
4 west and northwest along the west side of Lake
5 Okeechobee. And in each division we have a
6 superintendent. Under him there are two assistant
7 superintendents. And then we have thirteen farm managers,
8 seven in one division and six in another division. And
9 then the farm managers have one, two or three foremen or
10 assistant foremen under them, depending on the size of the
11 farm.
12 Q. What are the other departments within U.S.
13 Sugar in addition to the Agriculture Department?
14 A. I guess probably 10 or 12.
15 Q. Give me a sense of what kinds of things --
16 A. We have a sugar house, accounting,
17 executive, engineering, research, materials management,
18 materials information, citrus, vegetable, a finance
19 department. I think that's about ten right there.
20 Q. That's pretty good. Let's go back to 1968
21 when you were assistant field chemist. What were your
22 responsibilities there?
23 A. Primarily sampling the cane prior to harvest
24 to see which fields were mature and ready for harvest.
25 Q. How is that process done?
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1 A. You have a core sampler that you take out.
2 You literally push it through the stalk and when you pull
3 it out, it brings out the cane. It leaves it in the
4 sampler. You crush the juice and analyze the juice for
5 sugar content.
6 Q. Did you have any specialized training for
7 that position?
8 A. No. Just on-the-job training.
9 Q. I take it as field chemist you did roughly
10 the same?
11 A. Yeah. I just supervised the crew that did
12 the sampling then.
13 Q. Was that for the entire Eastern Division?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What are the responsibilities -- excuse me.
16 What were your responsibilities as technical assistant?
17 A. The technical assistant had overall
18 responsibility for the sampling as well as ordering the
19 fertilizer, ordering the herbicides and insecticides and
20 having them in inventory in our warehouse, advising on
21 rates of application of the herbicides and insecticides,
22 depending on what the pest was. I guess that's about it.
23 Q. Did you have any training for that position?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you receive any while you were -- excuse
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 me. Any particular course work or anything like that
2 while you were in that position?
3 A. Not that I remember. I mean there were
4 grower meetings that, you know, they had periodically
5 through IFAS that we attended and different things, but I
6 don't remember specifically any.
7 Q. Back in 1978 was the decision on whether to
8 apply fertilizer and insecticides, herbicides or how much
9 to apply exclusively made by the technical assistant?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How was that decision made?
12 A. We didn't have any responsibility for
13 recommending fertilizer.
14 Q. I thought you had said that --
15 A. No. We ordered the fertilizer from the
16 fertilizer company and ordered the deliveries and had it
17 spotted in the field, but we didn't make a recommendation
18 on rates of fertilizer.
19 Q. With respect to insecticides and herbicides?
20 A. Yes, we would. We would look at the problem
21 that was there and within the confinements of the label of
22 the product make recommendations as to how much, what
23 chemical to use.
24 Q. What guidelines were you provided, if any,
25 in making those decisions?
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 A. For what?
2 Q. For either rates or types of insecticides
3 and herbicides.
4 A. Primarily just experience, and working with
5 the material, and knowing what its capabilities were, and
6 what the manufacturers' recommended rates were, and what
7 their recommended target pest was.
8 Q. Who was your supervisor during that period?
9 A. Superintendent of Eastern Division. At that
10 time it was -- J.D. Stacy was his name.
11 Q. Did you supervise anyone in that position?
12 A. I had an assistant field chemist who worked
13 underneath my supervision.
14 Q. Is Mr. Stacy still with the company, still
15 alive?
16 A. He's retired.
17 Q. Do you know where he lives?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. Were there any company or corporate
20 guidelines as to application of insecticides or herbicides
21 that you were required to comply with?
22 A. Not that I remember.
23 Q. Why did you leave U.S. Sugar at that period?
24 A. I had the opportunity to become a manager of
25 a farm, and so I accepted another job.
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 Q. What caused you to return to U.S. Sugar?
2 A. J.D. Stacy, when he became vice president of
3 the department and moved to Clewiston, the headquarters,
4 called and asked me if I would come back and work for him
5 in the main office.
6 Q. So Mr. Stacy was the vice president for
7 agriculture?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When did he retire?
10 A. I can't remember the year, but it was in the
11 early '80s.
12 Q. So you returned to assume the position of
13 technical assistant, but working out of the department
14 head's office?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How did that differ from what you had been
17 doing before you left?
18 A. Well, it was primarily the same
19 responsibilities except over both divisions rather than
20 just one.
21 Q. What were your responsibilities as
22 administrative assistant to the vice president?
23 A. It got into more administrative type work in
24 that job, working as more or less a liaison with other
25 departments within the company and as a contact person
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 from our department to other departments, and that's about
2 it, I guess.
3 Q. You reported directly to Mr. Stacy?
4 A. No. He was retired.
5 Q. He was retired by that time?
6 A. Yes. I reported to the vice president of
7 the department head then.
8 Q. Who was that?
9 A. Frank Polhill.
10 Q. Is he still there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I take it in your current position you also
13 report to him?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. As administrative assistant to the senior
16 vice president, what staff did you directly supervise?
17 A. I didn't have any direct responsibility for
18 supervising anyone. I just consulted with them primarily.
19 Q. Is that also true with respect to your
20 current position?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How did your responsibilities change when
23 you became assistant to the senior vice president?
24 A. Well, I guess primarily title more than
25 anything else. But I guess that's about the biggest
BALLOWE REPORTING SERVICE (305) 761-1622
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1 change.
2 Q. Have Mr. Polhill's responsibilities changed
3 during the period you have been working for him?
4 A. No. He's always been the department head
5 since I have been working for him.
6 Q. Has he always been a senior vice president?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When did that change occur?
9 A. Two, three years ago.
10 Q. What does that change in name reflect?
11 A. I have no idea. It's a different title.
12 Q. Who supervises the department heads?
13 A. Well, they report to the Executive
14 Department in the company.
15 Q. Is there any person in particular?
16 A. I guess the president would probably be one
17 and the executive vice president.
18 Q. What are your responsibilities now?
19 A. Our department's responsible for the
20 planting, growing and harvesting of the sugarcane crop for
21 the company, so in carrying out those responsibilities. I
22 guess the best way to explain what we do is anything
23 involving our sugarcane crop we manage.
24 Q. How many employees work for the Agriculture
25 Department?
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1 A. Well, it varies. During the harvest season,
2 which is now, we have probably around 3,200 employees
3 within our department. During the summer it's down to
4 about probably 500.
5 Q. How many acres of sugarcane are in
6 production?
7 A. This year we'll harvest about 121,000 acres.
8 Q. Are there also fields that lie fallow this
9 year that aren't included in there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. About how many acres are there?
12 A. I guess it would be around 5 or 6,000.
13 Q. Is the Agriculture Department responsible
14 for growing, planting or harvesting any other crops?
15 A. We do grow rice as a fallow crop in the
16 summer.
17 Q. Any citrus?
18 A. Not in our department, no. That's a
19 different department.
20 Q. Which department is that?
21 A. Citrus.
22 Q. I take it vegetables are in the Vegetable
23 Department?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Have you ever had any responsibilities for
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1 any of those crops?
2 A. No, I haven't.
3 Q. Are you familiar at all with any debts or
4 the debt structure of U.S. Sugar?
5 A. No, sir, I'm not.
6 Q. Are you familiar with any federal subsidy
7 programs that U.S. Sugar might be involved with?
8 A. No, sir. I know there's a sugar program,
9 but I don't know the details of our participation in it.
10 Q. Who in your mind is the most knowledgeable
11 person about that at U.S. Sugar?
12 A. About --
13 Q. The corporation's participation in those
14 kinds of programs.
15 A. I don't know who would know the most about
16 it.
17 Q. Do you know how many employees there are
18 overall at the company?
19 A. Well, I've heard the figure of full-time
20 employees -- around 2,800 full-time year round employees.
21 And then I've heard 6,500 seasonal.
22 Q. Is that total or in addition to the 2,800?
23 A. That's total. I'm not counting them.
24 That's just what I've heard.
25 Q. Do you work out of an office?
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1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. What kinds of files do you maintain in your
3 office?
4 A. Well, my office -- my filing system is not
5 very large, but basically, you know, planting, growing and
6 harvesting information is all I can -- the best way I can
7 describe it.
8 Q. How extensive are your files?
9 A. Not very.
10 Q. Can you give us an example? There's a
11 standard size Xerox paper box sitting to your right.
12 Would it fill up one of those boxes?
13 A. It probably would, yeah.
14 Q. Do you have a few file cabinets?
15 A. I have two filing cabinets.
16 Q. Two filing cabinets. Did you search those
17 filing cabinets to find documents that you brought today?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you search all of your files in order to
20 find those?
21 A. Well, I knew what was there related to this,
22 so I knew where to go to get those. There are certain
23 files -- those files aren't that extensive. And this is
24 all I could find that was responsive to the subpoena.
25 Q. Did you review any other files?
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1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Does the Agriculture Department retain
3 files?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What kind of filing system is there?
6 A. I really don't get into their files.
7 Q. Well, when you say, "their files", you have
8 certain supervisory responsibilities for the Agriculture
9 Department; am I right about that?
10 A. Not really. Like I say, I'm consulted about
11 things, but as far as direct supervisory responsibilities,
12 no.
13 Q. Is there a central file for the Agriculture
14 Department?
15 A. No, not that I know of. Each division has
16 files and, you know, that's about it.
17 Q. So the Western Division and the Eastern
18 Division have files?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What sort of files do these divisions
21 maintain?
22 A. I'm not sure. I've never been in them.
23 Q. Where are they located?
24 A. Eastern and Western Division offices.
25 Q. Eastern Division is located where?
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1 A. Clewiston.
2 Q. Does U.S. Sugar have any corporate policy
3 for retention of files?
4 A. Not that I'm aware of.
5 Q. Do you have any personal policy about
6 retention of files?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. Does the Agriculture Department have any
9 policy?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you aware that you've been designated as
12 a fact witness in these proceedings?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Are you aware of the areas of testimony that
15 have been indicated for you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you tell me, Mr. Parker, what you
18 intend to testify to at the final hearing with respect to
19 U.S. Sugar agricultural operations?
20 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the
21 question. I think the witness is going to respond to
22 questions at the time of the hearing. I think it's within
23 his expectation that he's going to testify to one thing or
24 another.
25 MR. GUZY: Well, he can answer that?
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1 MR. BURGESS: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I would guess by my
3 position I would be asked to respond to questions about
4 our agricultural operations regarding planting, growing
5 and harvesting the sugarcane crop.
6 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you formulated any of
7 that testimony yet?
8 A. No, I haven't.
9 Q. Have you had discussions with anyone about
10 that testimony?
11 A. No, I haven't.
12 Q. What about with respect to BMPs?
13 A. I can speak to BMPs that we may have in
14 practice in going -- in our operations, as part of our
15 operations.
16 Q. Have you formulated any of your testimony
17 with respect to BMPs yet?
18 A. No, sir, I haven't.
19 Q. Have you had any discussions with anyone
20 about that testimony?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. What about the impact of the SWIM Plan?
23 What can you testify to about that?
24 A. I really don't know what the impact is.
25 Q. Have you formulated any testimony about
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1 that?
2 A. No, sir.
3 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the
4 question about the witness formulating testimony. The
5 witness is going to respond to questions and answers with
6 respect to things within his sphere of knowledge and those
7 things that are on the witness list with respect to his
8 potential areas of testimony. And I think it's improper
9 to ask a fact witness whether he's formulated testimony in
10 any regard.
11 MR. GUZY: I think you had responded to that
12 question already anyway.
13 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you consulted with
14 anyone about testimony on the impact of the SWIM Plan?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you given anyone your opinion about the
17 impact of the SWIM Plan?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Have you done any analysis of the SWIM Plan?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Have you read it?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Have you read any of the drafts of the SWIM
24 Plan?
25 A. No, sir.
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1 Q. I take it you haven't written any comments
2 about it?
3 A. That's correct. I have not.
4 Q. Who made the determination about what your
5 areas of testimony as a fact witness would be?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. I take it you did not?
8 A. That's correct. I did not.
9 Q. Have you had any discussions with any other
10 individuals who have been identified as fact witnesses for
11 U.S. Sugar concerning their projected areas of testimony?
12 A. I don't know who has been identified as fact
13 witnesses for the company.
14 Q. Have you ever reviewed the witness
15 designation list in this proceeding?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with
18 anyone about that?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. When did you first learn that you had been
21 designated as a fact witness?
22 A. A couple of months ago, the best I can
23 remember, I was told.
24 Q. Who told you that?
25 A. Bubba Wade.
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1 Q. What did Mr. Wade tell you?
2 A. That I was going to be a witness in this
3 case.
4 Q. How did it come up?
5 A. He picked the phone up and called me and
6 told me, I guess.
7 Q. What was the context of that conversation?
8 A. I don't remember the exact words.
9 Q. The subject matter of the conversation was
10 what, generally?
11 A. That I was going to be a witness in the
12 suit.
13 Q. That was all?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Did Mr. Wade say anything else?
16 A. Not that I recall.
17 Q. Did you have any response?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Do you remember in any more detail when that
20 conversation occurred?
21 A. No, sir. I'm not even sure about the two
22 months. I can't remember. We're right in the middle of
23 our harvest season. With so many things going on, I just
24 can't remember exactly.
25 Q. You were in the middle of harvest season
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1 when that occurred, the telephone call?
2 A. It seems to me that we were.
3 Q. Now, have you had any discussions with
4 individuals who have been designated as expert witnesses
5 on behalf of U.S. Sugar in this proceeding?
6 A. I don't know who's been designated as an
7 expert witness.
8 Q. Have you attended any litigation strategy
9 meetings or anything like that?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Have you had any other meetings with your
12 counsel than the one you described yesterday?
13 A. In the request for discovery there was some
14 information that we produced for Burgess.
15 Q. Any other contact?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Have you ever reviewed the administrative
18 petition filed by U.S. Sugar in this proceeding?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Are you familiar with it?
21 A. I know our company is quite concerned about
22 the SWIM Plan, and they're doing a lot of things to try to
23 find a better solution. But that's as far as -- as much
24 as I know about it. I know they're working hard on it.
25 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with
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1 anyone about the nature of your company's concerns about
2 the SWIM Plan?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Do you have any particular knowledge about
5 impacts to the Everglades Ego System as a result of U.S.
6 Sugar farming practices?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. More generally, as a result of EAA farming?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. There are a number of assertions in that
11 petition. You said you haven't read it, but I just want
12 to run through them. I think I know what your answers
13 will be, but I just want to be certain.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. A number of the assertions go to impacts on
16 the Everglades in general and what the current state of
17 the Everglades is from an ecological perspective. Do you
18 have any particular knowledge about that?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Any knowledge about federal government or
21 South Florida Water Management District activities and how
22 those activities may affect the ecological health of the
23 Everglades Ego System?
24 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the
25 question, overbroad. You can answer.
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1 THE WITNESS: I read the paper. I know, you
2 know, what's going on with every party involved in it from
3 reading the papers, but that's about it.
4 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Nothing from your employment
5 with U.S. Sugar?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Do you have any particularized knowledge
8 about allegations concerning other factors which might
9 affect the health of the Everglades Ego System such as
10 muck fire, freeze protection, population increases, things
11 like that?
12 A. No, sir, not other than what I read in the
13 papers.
14 Q. Are you familiar with whether there have
15 been water quality standards violations in the Everglades
16 Ego System?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Do you have any experience with permit
19 application procedures with the Water Management District?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. With the Department of Water Relations?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. I take it you don't have any experience with
24 some specifics like mixings on specific criteria,
25 equitable abatement, any of those things?
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1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Is the answer the same with respect as to
3 whether the SWIM Plan complies with various laws and
4 regulations?
5 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form.
6 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer
7 it. I don't know whether it's a yes or no.
8 MR. GUZY: Let me restate it then.
9 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Is the answer the same with
10 respect as to whether the SWIM Plan complies with various
11 laws and regulations?
12 A. Yes. The answer is the same, which is no.
13 Q. You don't have any particularized knowledge
14 about that?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And about implementation costs of the
17 proposed SWIM remediation, whether those are accurately
18 estimated? Do you have any particularized knowledge about
19 that?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Do you have any particularized knowledge
22 about whether the SWIM Plan -- excuse me. Whether the
23 settlement agreement in the federal litigation led to some
24 kind of impermissible contract?
25 A. No, sir.
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1 MR. GUZY: Off the record for a second.
2 (Discussion off the record.)
3 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Are you aware of any physical
4 changes that U.S. Sugar farming operations might suffer as
5 a result of implementing the SWIM Plan remedies?
6 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
8 MR. GUZY: Before you answer can I
9 understand what this objection is about?
10 MR. BURGESS: Physical changes? I don't
11 know what you mean by that. I don't know if he knows what
12 you mean. Object to the form. I think the question is
13 vague.
14 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) I would refer you to the
15 allegation of the U.S. Sugar petition, particularly
16 paragraph 33, pages 12 and 13.
17 MR. BURGESS: I think it's fine if you give
18 the witness the context you're asking the question.
19 That's permissible. Without it I don't think he can
20 formulate an answer.
21 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) I will be happy to show you
22 this. I'm not going to introduce it as an exhibit,
23 because it's already in circulation. But this is an
24 allegation from your company's petition, the highlighted
25 sections there. And I would ask you to read that,
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1 please. I'll just switch copies with you for a second.
2 Thanks.
3 I take it from your testimony before that
4 you've never seen this before?
5 A. That's correct. I have not seen it.
6 MR. BURGESS: I will just note for the
7 record that the paragraph the witness has been shown talks
8 about the effects that may be suffered by the petitioners,
9 plural, and that the context of the petition refers not
10 only to United States Sugar Company, but also Florida
11 Sugar League and New Hope South.
12 MR. GUZY: Thank you for that
13 clarification.
14 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Are you aware of any physical
15 changes, as that term seems to be used in this paragraph,
16 that U.S. Sugar farming operations might suffer, as that
17 term is used, as a result of implementing any of the
18 provisions of the SWIM Plan?
19 A. Not knowing what all the provisions of the
20 SWIM Plan is, I don't think I could respond to what
21 physical damages may occur.
22 Q. You're not aware of any; is that right?
23 A. Well, all I know is if we can't drain our
24 fields, then the crops will suffer.
25 Q. When you say if you can't drain your fields,
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1 what do you mean?
2 A. If that's one of the regulatory policies and
3 programs and if it prevents us from getting the water off
4 of our cane when there's too much water on the cane, then
5 the cane of course will die.
6 Q. Are you aware of whether that kind of
7 provision is part of the SWIM Plan?
8 A. No. That's what I said. If one of the
9 policies of the program prevents you from getting water
10 off the cane when it needs to come off, then the cane will
11 die. It can't grow under water.
12 Q. What about the next clause there, "will
13 impair existing permit rights"? Are you aware of any way
14 in which the SWIM Plan would impair existing --
15 A. I'm not familiar with "impair existing
16 permit rights".
17 Q. Are you familiar with any of the specifics
18 concerning water management activities?
19 A. What do you mean by "water management
20 activities"?
21 Q. The next clause says, "will adversely affect
22 their substantial interests and ability to conduct
23 essential water management activities on their property to
24 protect their crops and farming operations".
25 A. Yes. That's what I was talking about before
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1 when I stated that if as a result of any program we were
2 not able to get the water off of our property and off the
3 cane properly, then of course the crop would suffer.
4 Q. Is it a fair statement to say that you're
5 not aware of any specific provisions of the SWIM Plan that
6 would affect your ability to move the water in the way
7 you've described; is that a fair statement?
8 A. I think I've already stated I don't know
9 what all the provisions of the SWIM Plan are. I think I
10 have already made that statement. I'm only saying is that
11 if one of them -- it will not let us get the water off of
12 the cane, then the cane crop's going to suffer.
13 Q. Are you aware of any provisions of the SWIM
14 Plan that create that problem for you?
15 A. I'm not aware of any provisions at all of
16 the SWIM Plan.
17 Q. Fair enough. Are you aware of whether the
18 SWIM Plan either rightly or wrongly assigns to the EAA
19 responsibility toward the protection and restoration of
20 the Everglades protection area? I'm referring now, if you
21 want to look at it, to page 3, paragraph 4-D there. If
22 you can tell me if you have any particularized knowledge
23 about that, I would appreciate it. That last paragraph on
24 the page.
25 A. What's the question?
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1 Q. Do you have any particularized knowledge
2 about that allegation?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Have you had discussions with anyone about
5 changes in farming practices that might result from
6 implementing the SWIM Plan?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Other than what you told me before about the
9 concern if, as you said, water -- you're unable to move
10 water off of the sugarcane crops, there may be an impact,
11 do you have any other opinions or concerns about
12 implementing the SWIM Plan?
13 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the
14 question.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. Like I said
16 before, all I know is our company is working quite hard
17 against the SWIM Plan as it currently stands, so there
18 must be good reasons for them to fight it like that.
19 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) I think you said before that
20 you hadn't read the March 13, 1992, SWIM Plan, am I right
21 about that?
22 A. That's correct. I have not read it.
23 Q. Any of the supporting technical documents?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Any of the drafts?
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1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Have you given any consideration to
3 alternatives to the SWIM Plan?
4 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean.
6 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you given any thought to
7 other means for achieving the goals of the SWIM Plan than
8 are currently -- other than as currently adopted by the
9 Water Management District?
10 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the goal of
12 the SWIM Plan is, so I don't know if I can answer your
13 question.
14 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Have you considered any other
15 means for reducing nutrient impacts from farm field crops
16 other than those already in the SWIM Plan?
17 A. I don't know what's in the SWIM Plan.
18 Q. Have you had any discussion along those
19 lines with anyone where you specifically talked about
20 alternatives?
21 A. No. You know, all we have is what I gave
22 you there, which is a phosphorus reduction program through
23 reduced pumping practices.
24 Q. By "there" you're referring to the documents
25 that you brought with you today --
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- in response to our deposition notice?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We will get to those later. I appreciate
5 that.
6 Have you reviewed any of the economic impact
7 analyses that's been done of the SWIM Plan?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. I take it then you haven't critiqued it if
10 you haven't reviewed it.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. When was U.S. Sugar incorporated?
13 A. I think in 1931.
14 Q. What kind of entity is it?
15 A. It's a private company. Around 46 or 47
16 percent of the stock is owned by the employees through a
17 lease option. The balance of the stock is owned by the
18 Mott Charitable Trust I think is the name of it. Mott
19 Children's Foundation, the Mott family.
20 Q. Do you know when U.S. Sugar first began
21 sugarcane production?
22 A. 1931 when it was -- when it became U.S.
23 Sugar.
24 Q. What kind of farming did the company engage
25 in then back in the early '30s?
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1 A. Sugarcane.
2 Q. How many acres?
3 A. I don't know how large the farms were back
4 then.
5 Q. Was there an original farming area?
6 A. I'm not sure what the original site of the
7 farms were.
8 Q. Are you familiar with the history of U.S.
9 Sugar's farming up until the time you became an employee?
10 A. I don't know what you mean by "familiar". I
11 mean I grew up in the area, so I knew they were there.
12 Q. Do you know basically where and when areas
13 came into production?
14 A. No.
15 MR. GUZY: Off the record.
16 (Discussion off the record.)
17 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Has additional land come into
18 production for sugarcane farming since you have been
19 associated with the company?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you summarize that for us, please?
22 Where and when areas came into production?
23 A. Primarily on the west side of the lake and
24 the sand line areas that were formerly -- was formerly
25 pasture land.
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1 Q. And that's how much property?
2 A. I'm really not sure how many acres. I don't
3 have a guess right now.
4 Q. When did that area get converted?
5 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the
6 question. I think there's been testimony that there was
7 one area. The witness has been associated with U.S. Sugar
8 at two different times during his employment career, and I
9 don't think we're -- I don't think the question is clear,
10 and I think it's giving the witness trouble answering it.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know, you know, at
12 what time what area came into production in the 26 years
13 that I first started working for the company. I can't
14 remember.
15 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) The areas on the west side of
16 the lake, have they been added over time or was there one
17 or two large additions?
18 A. I don't know. I mean I just can't
19 remember. It's been so far back that I just can't
20 remember.
21 Q. U.S. Sugar also owns processing mills for
22 sugarcane?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. How many of those?
25 A. Two.
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1 Q. Which are those?
2 A. The Bryant Sugar House and the Clewiston
3 Sugar House.
4 Q. Does all the sugar from the acreages you
5 were talking about before that's currently in production,
6 does all of that sugar go to one of those two mills?
7 A. No. We also have cane that goes to the
8 sugarcane Growers Cooperative of Florida.
9 Q. Is there some geographic division as to
10 which cane goes where?
11 A. Yes. Primarily the Eastern Division cane
12 goes to Bryant Sugar House and the Western Division cane
13 goes to Clewiston Sugar House.
14 Q. Which goes to the co-op?
15 A. There's some acreages in both divisions that
16 go to the co-op.
17 Q. Is there sugar that's not grown by U.S.
18 Sugar that goes to the U.S. Sugar mills?
19 A. Yes, there is.
20 Q. Do you know about how much?
21 A. About 45,000 acres.
22 Q. Who farms those acres?
23 A. There's about 30 growers, 35, somewhere
24 along there.
25 Q. Are they concentrated in any particular
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1 geographic area?
2 A. No. There's some in both divisions.
3 Q. Do they just sell their cane to U.S. Sugar?
4 What kind of arrangement does U.S. Growers have?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Who makes the decision about where to farm
7 and when? Basically whether areas are added to -- let's
8 start with whether areas are added to or acquired by U.S.
9 Sugar. Who makes that decision?
10 A. The Executive Department.
11 Q. Anyone in particular?
12 A. I guess Mr. Fairbanks.
13 Q. Who makes the decision about which areas lie
14 fallow and which areas are actually grown for a particular
15 growing period?
16 A. Mr. Polhill.
17 Q. What are some of the considerations there,
18 do you know?
19 A. You would have to ask him.
20 Q. Who makes the decision about which areas to
21 plant and when to plant?
22 A. Mr. Polhill.
23 Q. Do you participate in those kinds of
24 decisions?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Can you summarize what the considerations
2 are?
3 MR. BURGESS: Is this with respect to what
4 to plant and where to plant? I'm sorry. Is that the
5 pending question?
6 MR. GUZY: Which areas to plant and when.
7 MR. BURGESS: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, when the stand in the
9 field has deteriorated to the point where nothing's going
10 to come back, then you disk it up and replant it.
11 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Is there a common expectation
12 about how many years that is or how many growing seasons?
13 A. No. It just depends on the area, soil type
14 and the climate.
15 Q. So it may vary over U.S. Sugar's holdings in
16 this area?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What would be a range?
19 A. It would vary from no crops to probably --
20 we have a few maybe eight or nine years old.
21 Q. Is there some kind of management unit that's
22 used for making these decisions? I know you referred
23 before to section. Is that what you might consider a
24 management unit for U.S. Sugar's farming?
25 A. We have farms and within the farms there are
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1 sections. Is that what you mean?
2 Q. Yes. I'm trying to understand how decisions
3 are made with respect to basically planting and eventually
4 with respect to harvesting. I wonder if they're made at
5 the level of each individual field, or general geographic
6 areas, or farms, or sections?
7 A. No. They're looked at -- each field is
8 looked at.
9 Q. Again, how many farms are there within each
10 division?
11 A. Well, there's a total of around 20 or 21
12 farms. They fall under the management of 13 farm
13 managers. Some farm managers have more than one farm
14 under their management.
15 Q. I see. What kind of decision making
16 authority do the farm managers have? What's their role?
17 A. Well, they mainly advise if they see
18 something. They don't have the final say-so as to when to
19 disk up and replant a field.
20 Q. And that decision, as you said, rests with
21 Mr. Polhill?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Is subsidence a concern to U.S. Sugar's
24 farming of sugarcane in this area?
25 A. Not really.
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1 Q. Is it something that you would say is
2 occurring in this area?
3 A. Yeah, it's occurring.
4 Q. When you say it's not really a concern, what
5 do you mean?
6 A. It's not occurring at a rate -- in the 26
7 years that I have been with them, I have not seen a field
8 that's come out of production because of subsidence.
9 Q. During those 26 years how much subsidence
10 have you observed in these areas?
11 A. I have no guess as to what it would be. I
12 have no measure to go by.
13 Q. Does anyone at U.S. Sugar take those kinds
14 of measurements?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Does the level of organic soils underneath
17 the -- let me phrase it this way. Does the thickness of
18 the organic soils underneath the crop vary from farm field
19 to farm field at U.S. Sugar?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What might be the range of that?
22 A. I don't know. I haven't done any probing.
23 Q. Do you know if anyone does?
24 A. No. Maybe in our Research Department.
25 Q. Do you manage at all differently depending
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1 upon the thickness of the muck?
2 A. Manage how?
3 Q. Manage the farming.
4 A. In what way?
5 Q. That's what I'm asking you. Is there
6 anything you do differently depending upon how thick the
7 muck is?
8 A. We know the cane still has to be planted,
9 and cultivated and harvested. We don't have separate
10 operations within any of those planting, growing or
11 harvesting operations because of where it's at.
12 Q. Any affect on water management practices as
13 a result of that?
14 A. Primarily you go by the elevation of the
15 ground rather than by the thickness of the muck, as far as
16 your water management practices.
17 Q. What fertilizers does U.S. Sugar use in the
18 growing of sugarcane?
19 A. Our Research Department takes the soil
20 samples from our fields. They make the soil test, do the
21 soil test. They make the fertilizer recommendations based
22 on the soil test. They register those as a mixture number
23 and give it to us as a mixture number and the right
24 maker. We don't see the analysis of the fertilizer. We
25 only see the mixture number for the field in so many
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1 pounds per acre.
2 Q. A mixture number in lay terms means what?
3 A. Number 48, number 101.
4 Q. What kind of scale is that on? What do the
5 numbers designate?
6 A. It's just a number. It's that mix is a
7 mixture number 48.
8 Q. It's a mix of soil and fertilizer?
9 A. No. It's a mix of -- it's the analysis of
10 the fertilizer that you would put out that identifies
11 that, and all we know it by is a mixture number.
12 Q. I see. You don't know anything about the
13 composition of the fertilizer?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You get an instruction then from the
16 Research Department that says use this particular kind of
17 fertilizer, referring to it by number; is that fair to
18 say?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Are you instructed as to the amount to
21 apply?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who makes that determination?
24 A. Research Department.
25 Q. Do you deal with individuals in that
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1 department?
2 A. I think the recommendations come from Hank
3 Andres.
4 Q. What is his position?
5 A. He's the department head.
6 Q. Is there any back and forth ever as to the
7 appropriateness of the recommendation?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Does your department then carry out those
10 recommendations?
11 A. That's correct. We don't have to worry
12 about that. The Research Department takes care of it for
13 us. So it's one less thing for us to have to worry about.
14 Q. What different mixtures are used?
15 A. I have no idea.
16 Q. Do you have a ballpark estimate?
17 A. No, sir, I sure don't.
18 Q. Could it be more than a thousand different
19 mixtures?
20 A. I don't know. I don't have them in my
21 files, and I don't deal with them.
22 Q. You don't deal with that at all?
23 A. I just know that's how it happens.
24 Q. Who would know about how many mixtures there
25 are?
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1 A. The superintendent would know and I think --
2 well, he might -- I think you're going to depose Wayne
3 Beardsley. He's a superintendent. He would know.
4 Q. It's basically at the division level then
5 where those decisions are made?
6 A. What decisions?
7 Q. I'm sorry. That people are familiar with
8 implementing the recommendation for the Research
9 Department.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That's where it would be?
12 A. Yes. At the division level.
13 Q. Has that been the practice in the 26 years
14 that you've been with the company?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know what the Research Department
17 looks for when it makes that analysis?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Do you know what their goal is with respect
20 to fertilizer?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know if they use phosphorus?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Do you know in what form?
25 A. No, sir.
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1 Q. How is the application quantified? Is there
2 a per acre rate or a linear foot rate?
3 A. It's pounds per acre.
4 Q. Is there a standard practice with respect to
5 the U.S. Sugar fields or does that vary field per field
6 how many pounds per acre?
7 A. It will vary.
8 Q. What is the range of that?
9 A. I don't remember. It's been so long since
10 I've dealt with it.
11 Q. Again, the people who would know are the
12 Research Department and the superintendents?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that something that's changed over the
15 years, the pounds per acre?
16 A. I don't know. Like I say, I have not dealt
17 with it in 12, 15 years, probably, directly.
18 Q. I take it you also wouldn't know whether the
19 mixtures themselves have changed; the nature of the
20 fertilizers used?
21 A. That's correct. I wouldn't know.
22 Q. Are you familiar with particular brand names
23 of fertilizers that are used or sources for fertilizers?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. What about the application of herbicides?
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1 Was it done in the same way? Was the decision whether to
2 apply herbicides made also by the Research Department?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. That's something that's made by the
5 Agriculture Department?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. How is that decision made?
8 A. By observing the field, and looking at the
9 condition and what the pest is, and applying whatever
10 pesticide is necessary to eliminate the pest.
11 Q. Is the decision as to which herbicide or
12 pesticide to use made by the Agriculture Department?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What level on that chain is that decision
15 made?
16 A. Well, the farm managers, superintendents,
17 the foreman.
18 Q. I think you told me before, am I right, that
19 there's really not any particular company guidance as to
20 which herbicides or pesticides to use?
21 A. That's correct. There's a very limited
22 number of herbicides labeled for use on sugarcane and the
23 same for insecticides. So we don't have a wide range of
24 choices.
25 Q. About how many are indicated for use?
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1 A. Probably less than a half a dozen I would
2 say.
3 Q. Which does U.S. Sugar use?
4 A. Which herbicides?
5 Q. Sure. Let's start with that.
6 A. Asulox, Atrazine, Evik, Round-up. That's
7 about it, I guess.
8 Q. And pesticides?
9 A. Primarily I guess Asana. Then we use a soil
10 insecticide at planting, Mocap or Thimet.
11 Q. That's immediately prior to planting?
12 A. At the time it's planted.
13 Q. At the time a root stalk is planted?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it planted with that pesticide?
16 A. Well, the stalk is laid in the furrow and
17 the covering rig that covers the cane up -- just prior to
18 covering it drops in the soil the insecticide such as
19 Mocap. There's several on the market.
20 Q. Is there any training for herbicide or
21 pesticide applicators?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What kind of training?
24 A. They're licensed and the supervisors are
25 licensed as mixer/loaders.
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1 Q. Do you have any supervisor responsibilities
2 with respect to making sure that they're doing their job
3 as they're supposed to?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Who does?
6 A. The superintendent.
7 Q. In general, with respect to storage of these
8 materials and disposal of them, who has the responsibility
9 at U.S. Sugar to ensure that regulations are complied
10 with?
11 A. Again, the superintendents.
12 Q. Is there an Environmental Department?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It's a separate department?
15 A. Yes. I forgot to mention that one when I
16 named the other ten.
17 Q. Do you have any contact with that
18 department?
19 A. What do you mean by "contact"? Have I ever
20 spoken to them?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. About what kinds of things?
24 A. Nothing in particular. But I mean they deal
25 primarily with the superintendents on matters involving
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1 the environment.
2 Q. When you described before your
3 responsibilities as concerning liaison with other
4 departments, would that include the Environment
5 Department?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What kind of things do you act as liaison
8 with?
9 A. Anything that may come up involving our
10 department or their department.
11 Q. Can you give me some examples?
12 A. I can't think of any. We have -- you know,
13 he meets with our people and observes what we do as the
14 environmental compliance officer for the company.
15 Q. That's what you mean by "he"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who is that?
18 A. Peter Briggs.
19 Q. Does Mr. Briggs have a staff?
20 A. He's got a secretary. But he has an
21 environmental committee within the company, and people
22 from different departments --
23 Q. Serve on that committee?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who from the Agriculture Department serves
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1 on that committee?
2 A. We have Mike Dyal, D-Y-A-L.
3 Q. D-Y-A-L?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. What is his position?
6 A. He's technical assistant, I believe. I'm
7 not sure.
8 Q. Which office is he in?
9 A. Or technical director. He's technical
10 director, and he works out of our office.
11 Q. What are his responsibilities?
12 A. Basically the same as what the technical
13 assistant's description was in the past. But he also is
14 our environmental point man for our department you might
15 say.
16 Q. Have you had any discussions with Mr. Briggs
17 about any concerns of nutrient runoff from north fields?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How about Mr. Dyal?
20 A. No.
21 MR. GUZY: Let's take a five-minute break.
22 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
23 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Mr. Patrick, when we were
24 talking about --
25 MR. BURGESS: Parker.
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1 MR. GUZY: Excuse me, Parker.
2 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) When we were talking before
3 about the SWIM Plan and your testimony that you hadn't
4 read or analyzed the SWIM Plan and its considered effect
5 upon your sugarcane farming operation; is that an accurate
6 statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Has anyone in the Agriculture Department
9 made that kind of analysis?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Do you know who at the company has done that
12 kind of analysis?
13 A. No. Unless it's Bubba Wade. In fact, I
14 have been told that I will need to review the SWIM Plan
15 and read up on it and do that, but I have not done it yet.
16 Q. I think we had been talking, before we took
17 our break, about herbicides and pesticides and their use.
18 Are there other agricultural chemicals that U.S. Sugar
19 uses?
20 A. No, sir, not that I remember.
21 Q. Do you use any desiccants in your process?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Any ripeners?
24 A. We use ripeners, yes. A plant growth
25 regulator.
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1 Q. Are you able to give me brand names for --
2 A. We use Polado, P-O-L-A-D-O.
3 Q. And for the plant growth regulator is that
4 the same?
5 A. It's the same.
6 Q. It's the same?
7 A. Yeah. That's a water ripener, basically.
8 Q. How is that applied?
9 A. Aerial.
10 Q. Who makes the determination whether to apply
11 the ripener?
12 A. The overall policy as to how much -- how
13 many fields to treat is made by the department head.
14 Q. Do you participate in that decision?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What are the considerations?
17 A. Basically if it's going to be harvested
18 prior to or the middle of December, then you would put a
19 ripener on it.
20 Q. The harvest season runs from when to when?
21 A. It starts about the third week in October
22 and will run to about the third or fourth week in March.
23 Q. What is the rate of application of the
24 ripener?
25 A. We have two different rates; two ounces and
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1 five ounces per acre.
2 Q. And each rate signifies what?
3 A. Pardon?
4 Q. Why are there two rates? Each rate
5 signifies what?
6 A. We put the higher rate on fields that are
7 going to be disked up and abandoned, and the lower rate on
8 the fields that are not going to be abandoned.
9 Q. What percentage of the fields on an annual
10 basis are disked up and abandoned?
11 A. I don't know if we have a percentage or
12 not. We usually plant anywhere from probably 20 to 28,000
13 acres every year. It varies from year to year.
14 Q. How is the planting process done? You had
15 mentioned disking.
16 A. Yeah. You prepare the land and then you
17 have a furrow plow that opens up a furrow. You have the
18 seed cane cut already, and you just haul your seed cane
19 from the seed field to the field you're going to plant.
20 Wagons are pulled through the field, and there are four
21 people on the wagon and four walking behind the wagon.
22 They drop the seed cane off in the furrow. The ones
23 behind it chop it up into sections about three feet long
24 and plant -- each crew will plant four rows at a time as
25 it goes through the field.
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1 Q. What is the season for harvesting of rice?
2 A. Rice harvest usually starts the first week
3 in July and should be completed probably by the end of
4 August.
5 Q. When is planting done for the rice?
6 A. The planting is done around the first of
7 March -- begun.
8 Q. How many acres of planting rice, roughly?
9 A. Between 2 and 3,000 acres.
10 Q. Those are the same acres that you talked
11 about before, the fallow acres?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Are there any fallow fields that do not have
14 rice planted on them?
15 A. Yes. There may be a few.
16 Q. What would the reason for that be?
17 A. Well, just maybe not enough time to get it
18 all done. We only have so many harvesters or combines
19 that can combine the rice. So we can't put everything in
20 rice at the moment.
21 Q. Why is it that rice is used in the fallowing
22 fields?
23 A. Well, it's a good cover crop and it does
24 generate some revenue. We have the people, and the
25 equipment, and the land, so it fits in real well. But
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1 rice in and of itself is not an economically feasible crop
2 in south Florida. You can't make any money off of it.
3 But as a rotation crop with sugarcane, then you can pretty
4 much break even, but that's about it.
5 Q. What is the reason for leaving the fields
6 fallow?
7 A. You maybe can't get to them all in time to
8 get them all in in rice.
9 Q. I'm sorry. I meant what is the reason for
10 not planting them in sugarcane?
11 A. Again, you can't get them all planted in
12 time. A lot of times you have to put fields in long-term
13 land preparation because of the grass problem. If you
14 don't correct -- if you plant it right back, that grass
15 problem would be there for the new cycle of cane that you
16 just planted and hurt production. So when you get that
17 back, you have to put it in long-term land preparation,
18 either in rice or disking to control the grass problem.
19 Q. Are there any concerns about productivity of
20 the fields that lead you to decide to leave the field
21 fallow or planting rice?
22 A. No, not really.
23 Q. So crop rotation is not done for
24 productivity reasons; is that what you're saying?
25 A. I don't understand what you mean.
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1 Q. When I say, "crop rotation", I mean
2 sugarcane to rice. That the decision to put a field in
3 rice or leave it fallow is not done to help increase the
4 productivity of sugarcane in the future.
5 A. In some areas rice production -- rice
6 production does help the sugarcane production afterwards.
7 In some areas it doesn't. It's not an exact science.
8 You're not always sure that you'll get increased cane
9 production from fallowing rice.
10 Q. How does it help in those areas where it
11 does?
12 A. We really don't know. We just know in some
13 cases it does. In some cases it doesn't. We don't know
14 the reasons why.
15 Q. Is the decision whether to leave a field
16 fallow or planted in rice, does that decision depend at
17 all upon concerns about productivity of the sugarcane
18 crop?
19 A. No.
20 Q. It's more the manpower concerns you were
21 talking about?
22 A. Yes. Primarily we put everything in rice
23 that we can.
24 Q. Maybe we're not connecting.
25 A. Basically anything that's fallow we put in
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1 rice.
2 Q. The decision as to whether you put it in
3 rice or leave it fallow -- let's take that as a category,
4 rice or fallow. That decision versus sugarcane
5 replanting.
6 A. You're talking about not leaving it fallow
7 and planting it right back in sugarcane?
8 Q. Right. How is that decision made? How do
9 you decide what to do?
10 A. Well, again, the first decision is made as
11 to whether to successive plant it or not. I mean harvest
12 it, disk it up and plant it right back and harvest it the
13 next year.
14 Q. What are the considerations?
15 A. As I mentioned, the grass problems that you
16 might have in the field that need to be taken care of.
17 And the only way to do that is through long-term land
18 preparation, either by disking it or planting it in rice.
19 Q. Any other concerns, any other factors that
20 led you to do one or the other?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Is there a general productivity goal on a
23 per acre basis that you have for the sugarcane fields?
24 A. We estimate each field every year and what
25 we think it will do, yes.
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1 Q. It varies from field to field?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What kind of range are you talking about?
4 A. It depends on what year it is.
5 Q. From your experience what is the range?
6 A. I have seen fields cut seven tons per acre,
7 and I've seen fields cut 104 tons per acre.
8 Q. What's the average?
9 A. At U.S. Sugar probably around 37, 38.
10 Sometimes higher and sometimes lower.
11 Q. The annual factors which influence that are
12 what?
13 A. The what?
14 Q. The factors that year to year change that
15 average. What are those?
16 A. That change what?
17 Q. The average productivity that you're talking
18 about. You said some years it might be low, some --
19 A. Growing conditions for that crop, you know,
20 weather. All those things that go into making things grow
21 or not grow.
22 Q. Precipitation? Temperature?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Amount of sunlight? Those kinds of things?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. For sugarcane farming, what practices do you
2 use with respect to water management? What are you trying
3 to accomplish, basically?
4 A. We're trying to -- if conditions exist
5 whereby the cane is suffering from not enough water, then
6 we try to irrigate and give it some water. If conditions
7 are that it has too much water, then we try to get rid of
8 the water. We have to look at each individual field and
9 area and see what kind of shape it's in and then decide
10 what it needs, if anything.
11 Q. At what level in the organizational
12 structure are those decisions made?
13 A. They're made, you know, by the farm managers
14 in the field -- in the farming.
15 Q. What level physically are they made? What
16 unit of water management is used?
17 A. Well, it depends on the area and how the
18 water control structures and facilities are set up in that
19 area. Some areas may cover five or six sections and some
20 may cover 20 sections.
21 Q. Is that the range, basically?
22 A. Well, I haven't counted them up. It just
23 depends on what that water control structure in that
24 particular area is set up to handle.
25 Q. When you say, "water control structure",
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1 what precisely do you mean?
2 A. Condensation, or irrigation pump, or
3 whatever the water control facility would be.
4 Q. Who within the organization has
5 responsibility for maintaining and operating those?
6 A. Our department operates them and then we
7 have a Field Construction Department that maintains them.
8 Q. You mentioned irrigation and you mentioned
9 moving water off the land, flood control. Between those
10 two which do you regard as the more important principle?
11 A. It depends on the area. Some areas, you
12 know, are wet areas that you have to be more concerned
13 with being too wet and then other areas are dry areas that
14 you have to be concerned with irrigation. So it's just
15 each area has its own unique characteristics that a farm
16 manager has to manage.
17 Q. Is it the elevation of an area that
18 determines that?
19 A. Sometimes it's the elevation or difference
20 in elevation and soil type. Several different things, you
21 know, go to make an area a wet area as opposed to a dry
22 area.
23 Q. Anything else? Elevation, soil type.
24 Proximity to the station, effectiveness of the canals?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Those might all be factors?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The water that's used on U.S. Sugar property
4 for irrigation purposes that comes through these water
5 control structures, where does that come from?
6 A. It comes from the main primary canals that
7 are in the area.
8 Q. Meaning the water management district
9 canals?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Does U.S. Sugar pay for its use of that
12 water?
13 A. I'm really not sure. I don't handle any of
14 the taxes for the company, so I'm not sure what the tax
15 structure is and how much is paid to whom and for what.
16 Q. Do you know who in the organizational
17 structure would have that information?
18 A. Bubba Wade probably would.
19 Q. Is there a goal as to pumping capabilities
20 for U.S. Sugar properties? How much water, so many inches
21 of water off the property in a 24-hour period, for
22 example?
23 A. There may be, but I don't know what that
24 figure is. Our Engineering Department designs our pump
25 stations. And they might have a figure, but I wouldn't
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1 know what it is.
2 Q. As basically a farm manager, do you have a
3 sense of what you need, basically, to make the system
4 work?
5 A. I've never really looked at it in that
6 context.
7 Q. What's the goal with respect to inundation
8 of the root zone of the sugarcane crop? What were you
9 trying to do?
10 A. I don't know what you mean.
11 Q. Where ideally should the water level be with
12 respect to the root zone?
13 A. It depends on what the field conditions
14 are. If it's dry, it can be higher than when it's wet.
15 Q. If it's dry where would it be?
16 A. You want to get it as high as you can to get
17 moisture up to the root zone.
18 Q. And if it's wet where do you want it to be?
19 A. Further down where some of that water would
20 move down and not kill the root system. But as far as any
21 measurement, I don't have any goal.
22 Q. If the root zone stays inundated, how long a
23 period can it stay that way before there's damage to the
24 crop?
25 A. It depends on how big the cane is. The
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1 bigger the cane the more it can stand. And in the
2 summertime typically it could stand more than it could
3 this time of the year.
4 Q. For cane that's been producing for several
5 seasons, does that affect its size or productivity?
6 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't understand.
8 MR. GUZY: I didn't hear you, Rick.
9 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form. I don't
10 know what affects size or productivity.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand.
12 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) You used the term larger
13 cane, and I think you said it could stand more
14 inundation. When you say larger, are you referring solely
15 to where it is in the growing season?
16 A. Yes. What stage in the growing season it
17 is.
18 Q. For multi year cane, does that affect its
19 size at all? Is it going to be the same size, basically,
20 next year as it was last year?
21 A. What do you mean by size? Height or --
22 Q. I don't know. That's what I'm asking you.
23 A. I don't either.
24 Q. Would the height vary from year to year?
25 A. You mean the same field or all the fields?
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1 Q. Let's take the same field. The same root
2 stalk even.
3 A. It may, depending on the growing conditions
4 preceding the time when you took the measurements.
5 Q. There's not a general principle or anything
6 like that, a general thing that happens?
7 A. Not that I -- if what I understand you're
8 asking me is correct, then no.
9 Q. That's probably true for the diameter as
10 well of the stalk?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you said a larger cane can stand
13 inundation -- I'm just trying to understand. I'm not
14 trying to trick you or anything like that.
15 A. Right. Now, one of the canes has just been
16 harvested, so it hasn't started regrowth yet. It's real
17 small. Later on in the spring and summer the cane will be
18 this tall and can withstand more water.
19 Q. "This tall" is three or four feet, so the
20 court reporter can get it.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. For the cane -- right after it's been
23 harvested and it's short, basically the short cane, how
24 long do you think that it can have its roots inundated?
25 A. It, again, would vary on soil type. There's
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1 no set number of days that I could tell you that would
2 happen every time.
3 Q. How about for the large cane? The same
4 answer?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What about the soil type affects the cane?
7 What is it about the soil type?
8 A. I don't know. It's just -- in some areas it
9 can withstand longer than other areas. There are
10 different muck types.
11 Q. In the years that you've been there, the 26
12 years you have been at U.S. Sugar, have you ever known to
13 lose a crop due to flooding?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why don't you tell me about that, please.
16 A. We're disking some out now from the rains we
17 have had this winter. Probably around 700 acres worth.
18 Q. At what location is that?
19 A. Well, it's several different locations all
20 over our property. I don't have the exact field numbers.
21 The superintendents have told me we have to disk some cane
22 out because water has killed it, too much water.
23 Q. It's not a single location, but it's
24 interspersed throughout the property?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Why was it that water was unable to be
2 effected -- let me ask you the premise first.
3 Is it true that water was not able to be
4 effectively removed from these areas to allow the crop to
5 survive?
6 A. Due to the excessive amount of rainfall that
7 we got.
8 Q. Was there more rain than the pumps could
9 handle?
10 A. I guess it was more than the pumps were
11 designed for. We're trying some of these BMPs and
12 experimenting with these pump canal level BMPs and this
13 reduced pumping. We're still working with those stages to
14 try to find one that will accomplish both our goal to
15 reduce pumping and to keep from killing the crop. So
16 that's why we're still working with those -- I just pulled
17 them out of my files to give to you today, and we're still
18 modifying them.
19 Q. Do you attribute the loss of this crop or
20 any loss of this crop to those BMPs you're talking about?
21 A. I think some of them have been affected by
22 them, yes. And that's why we're making adjustments now.
23 Q. How did you come to that conclusion? For
24 example, did you go out and --
25 A. With the guidelines that we have set up, we
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1 did reach the trigger pumps to crank the pump before the
2 cane had been killed, suffered damage.
3 Q. What I'm asking is how do you come to that
4 conclusion? What do you base that on? Do you base it on
5 discussions with people? Your own observations?
6 A. Both. My observations and discussions with
7 people. I've seen some of the fields.
8 Q. Let's take the observations. Where did you
9 go and what did you look at?
10 A. I went to a couple of areas that our
11 superintendents had pointed out to me and just to look at
12 the fields myself.
13 Q. What did you see?
14 A. I saw no cane growing in the field.
15 Q. I should have asked what didn't you see.
16 What kind of discussions did you have?
17 A. With myself? I mean I was by myself when I
18 went to see the fields.
19 Q. How about -- I think you said you based your
20 thinking that BMPs might be part of the cause of the loss
21 of this field on both observations and discussion. What
22 discussions did you have about this?
23 A. No. I'm saying I looked at the areas where
24 I saw the fields and the levels that --
25 Q. Right.
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1 A. -- the canals were in. And they were too
2 high and therefore unable to dry the fields up before the
3 cane died.
4 Q. You also talked to some of the farm
5 managers?
6 A. Superintendents.
7 Q. Superintendents. Did they have the same
8 opinion?
9 A. Yes. And I'll say that's why we're still
10 working with these BMPs, to get them where they will
11 accomplish both reduced pumping and keep from killing the
12 cane. We think we can do that once we get the stages in
13 the correct levels for each of the different basins. We
14 think it will accomplish both goals.
15 Q. We will be able to get into that in a little
16 bit more detail when we get to that document. I
17 appreciate that.
18 Have you, in your 26 years of experience at
19 U.S. Sugar, seen other occasions where crops were lost due
20 to excess water?
21 A. I don't remember being this much -- you
22 know, we have isolated fields here and there from one year
23 to the next, but I don't remember anything as big as this
24 at one time.
25 Q. From one year to the next is it a pretty
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1 regular occurrence that some of the fields would be lost?
2 A. No, not really. Like I say, this was an
3 unusually wet winter.
4 Q. Have you been around for any wet winters?
5 A. I don't remember one being this wet, but
6 maybe in this 26 years there may have been one. If you
7 look back on the rainfall records, this has been a fairly
8 unusual winter as far as precipitation is concerned.
9 Q. Have you, in your period with the company,
10 ever known a crop to be lost due to drought?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Why don't you tell me about that, please.
13 A. I just remember in 1981 when we had the last
14 drought, the lake level got down below ten. We had some
15 cane damage as a result of that. I don't remember if we
16 actually disked fields up, but I know production was lower
17 than we would have expected as a result of it.
18 Q. So the level of production may have been
19 decreased, but you don't have any memory of the loss of
20 whole areas?
21 A. I don't remember fields being disked up.
22 There may have been. I just don't recall any.
23 Q. Is there some optimum water table level that
24 you strive for to achieve a maximum yield?
25 A. No, not really. It depends on the area.
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1 Some areas can have a higher water table than other
2 areas. You just have to know the areas and know what
3 you're working with.
4 Q. Who makes that kind of decision?
5 A. Nobody has made a decision as to what the
6 level is. Like I say, you just -- by observing the field
7 conditions, you determine what's best for the cane.
8 Q. Is it the superintendent or the farm
9 manager?
10 A. Well, in the past it's been the farm
11 manager. Now that we have these guidelines to go by, then
12 that decision is made for them already, and they just
13 follow the guidelines up. But in the past the farm
14 managers -- if it clouded up they cranked the pumps to
15 protect the crop. And then they knew they could always
16 get the water back. Now things are different and they
17 have the schedules to go by. And we're still on -- like I
18 say, working with the schedules.
19 Q. So the practice in the past was to pump
20 whenever there was basically the threat of rain?
21 A. Sometimes you would if the field was already
22 wet and saturated and you could see rain was imminent.
23 Then you would go ahead and crank the pump. Now you wait
24 until after the rain has come and wait eight hours at
25 least before you make a decision whether to crank the pump
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1 or not.
2 Q. When you say they could -- if they pump too
3 much they could get the water back, what did you mean?
4 A. Well, I mean if the rain didn't come, they
5 could just open the gate and the water would come back in.
6 Q. Is it generally true that there's much more
7 of a need to pump during the wet season than there is
8 during the dry season?
9 A. Oh, yeah.
10 Q. What about water management practices with
11 respect to the rice production? What is the goal there?
12 A. Well, you just have to keep the level of
13 water, you know, coming up with the rice and keep it high
14 enough to prevent grass and weeds from germanating, yet
15 enough water there to grow the rice crop.
16 Q. Is the rice sensitive to inundation? You
17 know, to storm events as sugarcane is?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Does one crop or another require more water
20 for production?
21 A. I don't know how many gallons per acre of
22 water it takes to grow a crop of cane versus a crop of
23 rice, if that's what you mean by requirements. I don't
24 know.
25 Q. Are there any physical features of the
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1 fields or the water management structures that need to be
2 altered or modified to allow the harvest -- I'm sorry --
3 the growing of the rice?
4 A. Yeah. You have to put up levees around the
5 fields where you have the rice.
6 Q. So that the water level can actually be
7 higher than it is with sugarcane. Is that the goal of
8 that -- of the levels?
9 A. You don't put water over a sugarcane field.
10 Sugarcane won't grow under standing water, but of course
11 the rice is a water crop.
12 Q. What kind of monitoring is done of water
13 quality for water that is pumped off of the fields?
14 A. We have monitors at our pump stations, but
15 our department doesn't have anything to do with them.
16 Q. So you don't have any particular knowledge
17 about water quality monitoring?
18 A. No. I just know that they're there.
19 Q. Do you know what they measure?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know how they work?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know when they're used?
24 A. Every time the pumps run.
25 Q. Do you know how long they've been there,
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1 those monitors?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Have you ever or the Agriculture Department
4 ever instituted any practices as a result of concerns
5 about water quality coming off the property?
6 A. Yeah. We've got several that are in that
7 book that we're already doing and have been doing.
8 Q. The book meaning --
9 A. The green book.
10 Q. The BMPs?
11 A. The BMPs.
12 Q. We'll talk about that pretty soon. Anything
13 else?
14 A. I can't remember what all is in that book.
15 So until I see it and go through it, I won't know if I've
16 left anything out.
17 Q. Are you familiar with any sampling that's
18 been done for water quality?
19 A. I know it's been done. That's all I know.
20 Q. Who's responsible for the water sampling and
21 quality?
22 A. The Research Department.
23 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with the
24 Research Department about any of that sampling or
25 monitoring?
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1 A. No, I haven't.
2 Q. Have you had any discussions with them about
3 the effectiveness of the new pumping practices that they
4 have instituted?
5 A. No, I haven't. The only thing I know is the
6 one that's in that other document that I gave you. That's
7 the only thing I know anything about as far as differences
8 between the old pumping procedures and the new pumping
9 procedures.
10 Q. Does U.S. Sugar use on-site detention of
11 water as a means to conserve water?
12 A. Yes, we have.
13 Q. How does that work?
14 A. If we have a field in that area that's a
15 fallow field, then we would direct water to that field
16 rather than discharging it out of the basin. Or if we had
17 rice fields in that area, then we would pump the water
18 from the cane onto the rice. Or if we had vegetable
19 fields in the area, then we would pump water on the
20 vegetables that were in a fallow condition rather than
21 discharging it outside the basin.
22 Q. When is that done?
23 A. In the summertime during the rainy season.
24 Q. Why would there be a reluctance to discharge
25 it from the basin?
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1 A. Again, that's part of the BMPs to reduce
2 pumping.
3 Q. That's something that's been done recently?
4 A. Yeah. I don't know what you mean by
5 recently, but within the last couple of years.
6 Q. Was on-site detention ever used before that?
7 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
8 Q. As a farm manager is that a fair description
9 of your sort of expertise as -- I don't mean to say you're
10 the farm manager. But in the area of farm management, do
11 you find on-site detention to be at all cost prohibitive?
12 A. I don't know if we've done it enough yet to
13 be able to tell by it. It's just not been done enough yet
14 to say.
15 Q. Do you find it at all counterproductive?
16 A. Well, there's a possibility. And we have
17 not, again, worked with it long enough. But that field
18 right next to that one may suffer damage from seepage from
19 that field. Like I say, we have not done it enough to be
20 able to evaluate it thoroughly.
21 Q. You need more growing seasons and experience
22 to be able to tell?
23 A. Sure. With all of these we need to be able
24 to have enough time to work with them and fine tune them
25 to decide if they'll work and if they won't.
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1 Q. What permits does U.S. Sugar have from
2 either federal, state or local authorities --
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Let me finish the question and then you can
5 tell me you don't know.
6 To engage in sugarcane farming?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Who knows that? Who's most familiar with
9 that?
10 A. Our Engineering Department handles the
11 permitting for us.
12 Q. What water management principles apply when
13 you're actually doing the harvesting? What's the goal
14 there for sugarcane?
15 A. Well, you want to have the fields where you
16 can get in there to harvest them. So you have to pump the
17 water down enough to dry them out where you can get in
18 there and harvest.
19 Q. And keep the water off the fields for that
20 period?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How about for the rice harvesting?
23 A. The same would apply. You would have to
24 begin to take the water off a couple of weeks prior to
25 harvesting, ten days prior to harvesting, to be able to
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1 get into the field with the combines.
2 Q. Is that true for the planting as well?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. How long is that period between planting and
5 harvesting, if there's going to be successive planting?
6 A. Well --
7 Q. I'm sorry. Between harvesting and planting
8 is my question.
9 A. We can do it in three weeks. Say three to
10 five weeks. Sometimes we can do it quicker than that.
11 One of the other things we are doing in the way of
12 successive planting is no-till planting where we are not
13 disking up the field. We are going between the rows and
14 making new furrows between the old rows and planting that
15 way. And then by mechanical cultivation we work out the
16 old rows, where the old rows were.
17 Q. What is the reason for doing a no-till
18 planting?
19 A. To cut down on the cost for land preparation
20 for one thing.
21 Q. Does it have any particular benefits or
22 detriments in your view?
23 A. We have not done it enough, again, to
24 evaluate that completely as to whether production is just
25 as good that way as the other way, but we are still
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1 looking at it.
2 Q. Do you --
3 A. The no-till planting would reduce the amount
4 of dust that might be in the atmosphere as a result of the
5 disking. And we're still doing tests on that, too,
6 experiments.
7 Q. Does it still involve furrowing, the no-till
8 planting?
9 A. Is it still furrowed?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes. You still furrow in the existing
12 fields with the furrow plow and make your new rows there.
13 Q. Do you have an estimate of what percentage
14 of phosphorus reduction can be obtained by using BMPs?
15 A. No, sir, I don't.
16 Q. Do you have any experience with that?
17 A. No, sir, never. The only data I've seen is
18 what's in that book.
19 Q. Have you had any discussions with anyone
20 about that?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. When you evaluate BMPs, is it fair to say
23 that your perspective is whether it's something that you
24 can successfully farm with? Is that the way you're
25 looking at it?
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1 A. That's our portion of the pie, I guess. And
2 other departments within the company try to measure and
3 quantify that reduction.
4 Q. Who at the company figures out other ways
5 you can accomplish the farming? Whose job is that?
6 A. Accomplish what?
7 Q. The farming. Other ways you can get the
8 farming done.
9 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the
11 question.
12 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Someone thought up, for
13 example, the idea of on-site detention, moving the water
14 around instead of discharging it all. Who sort of sits
15 there and thinks up those things for the company?
16 A. I don't know where the idea originally came
17 from. It is our responsibility in production to evaluate
18 that, as to whether it would hurt the cane production or
19 not.
20 Q. But it's not the Argiculture Department's
21 responsibility to think of different ways the farming can
22 be done?
23 A. Oh, yeah. We do and have.
24 Q. What are some of the examples of that?
25 A. The water detention is one that was thought
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1 up within our department. We've -- you know, planting
2 cane in the middle is another one. Of course the pumping
3 of the water on the rice fields rather than discharging it
4 and pumping the water on vegetable fields, all that was
5 done within our department.
6 Q. Who specifically?
7 A. I don't remember who. It just came about
8 and we said, let's try it.
9 Q. Is there any procedure in place or policy or
10 anything like that to encourage those kinds of changes?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. It's just if someone happens to think of it,
13 you have a discussion about it and try to decide if it
14 will work?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Are you familiar with the challenge to the
17 district's BMP rule that was initially filed by U.S.
18 Sugar?
19 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form of the
20 question.
21 MR. GUZY: What's objectionable to that?
22 MR. BURGESS: I don't think you've
23 established a predicate as to whether a challenge may have
24 been filed to what rule.
25 MR. GUZY: You can go ahead and answer.
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1 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
2 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) You're not familiar with it?
3 A. No, I'm not.
4 Q. Do you have any opinion about whether a 25
5 percent reduction in phosphorus coming off the U.S. Sugar
6 properties is a reasonable goal for BMP reductions?
7 A. I have no basis to make any at this point in
8 time.
9 Q. Are you familiar with what's called an early
10 baseline option under BMP permit?
11 A. I have heard talk about it, but I don't
12 understand what it's about. I don't know all the details
13 about the early baseline option and what your options
14 are. Bubba Wade kind of takes care of that for us. He
15 attends the workshops and the meetings. We don't get
16 involved with that.
17 Q. Do you have any knowledge about whether U.S.
18 Sugar has made that election?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Bubba Wade would be the person --
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. -- to talk about it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I take it since you said you don't have a
25 particular knowledge about the BMP rule challenge, that
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1 you also don't have any particular knowledge about
2 withdrawing that challenge?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. What kind of research or demonstration does
5 U.S. Sugar do with respect to BMPs?
6 A. I don't understand what you mean.
7 Q. How do you go about assessing whether
8 particular BMPs are going to work or not?
9 A. Our Research Department would be the one to
10 evaluate that.
11 Q. Do they have research farms?
12 A. Yes. They do have some areas that are
13 theirs, research.
14 Q. Do they also --
15 A. They also have areas in our commercial field
16 that they do testing.
17 Q. So maybe on portions of the areas that you
18 supervised they worked with you to do research?
19 A. No. They do the research, yes. We give
20 them an area to do the research in.
21 Q. Who would implement their change practices?
22 Is that something they would do or the Agriculture
23 Department people would do?
24 A. It depends on what it is. If it's something
25 they can handle themselves, they will. If they need help
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1 from us, then we will.
2 Q. Can you think of any examples of that?
3 A. No. Just talking in general terms.
4 Q. Are you aware of any current research that's
5 now ongoing designed to lessen phosphorus or nutrient
6 discharges from the U.S. Sugar property?
7 MR. BURGESS: Other than the BMPs you
8 started talking about?
9 THE WITNESS: I don't know if you're talking
10 about the ones in those books or not.
11 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) We can turn to those. Are
12 there ones other than in these books?
13 A. I don't know what all they're doing, to tell
14 you the truth. I just know they're working hard on many
15 different things, but they don't consult with me before
16 they do them or while they're doing them. They just do
17 them.
18 Q. They being who?
19 A. Research.
20 Q. Whose the best person --
21 A. Hank Andreis or Bubba Wade. Bubba would
22 know about it as well as Hank.
23 Q. How large is that department?
24 A. I don't know how many people they have in
25 it.
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1 Q. Do you know if there's any research on
2 growing more water-tolerant cane?
3 A. I really don't know that.
4 Q. Are there different kinds of sugarcane that
5 you plant? Different varieties?
6 A. Yes, there is.
7 Q. How many different ones?
8 A. There may be 50. But probably 80 percent of
9 the acres consist of maybe a half a dozen varieties.
10 Q. What are some of the features that differ
11 from variety to variety?
12 A. There are as many different features as
13 there are varieties.
14 Q. Who makes the decision about which variety
15 gets planted?
16 A. The superintendents in East Division.
17 Q. What factors go into that decision? What
18 are they trying to do about choosing one variety rather
19 than another?
20 A. Maximize production in different areas of
21 the farm.
22 Q. Are there some varieties that are more water
23 tolerant than others?
24 A. Not that I know of.
25 Q. So that's not one of the factors that
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1 differs?
2 A. I don't know of that as being one of the
3 factors.
4 Q. Can you give me an example of some of the
5 other -- some factors that would differ from variety to
6 variety?
7 A. Whether there's an early maturing variety or
8 late maturing, direct cane or lodged and tangled. Some
9 are better in tons per acre and have a lower sugar
10 content. Some have a higher sugar content and lower tons
11 per acre. Some close in more rapidly or quicker than
12 other varieties. In the spring when they are growing,
13 they will overlap their centers quicker. Some are more
14 cold tolerant than others. Those are just some of the
15 things.
16 Q. Is the selection of the different varieties
17 provided by the Research Department or by the -- who gives
18 the superintendent --
19 A. Our Research Department has its own cane
20 variety breeding program, and they develop and breed
21 varieties. And after years and years of testing in their
22 plots, they may realize one or two a year. Just like the
23 U.S.D.A. has a cane breeding program.
24 MR. GUZY: Off the record a second.
25 (Whereupon, at 12:05 P. M. the lunch recess
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1 was taken.)
2 (Whereupon, Parker Nos. 1 through 6 were
3 marked for identification.)
4 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) Mr. Parker, have you attended
5 meetings of the Everglades Agricultural Area?
6 MR. BURGESS: Object to the form.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean.
8 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) I will show you a document,
9 we won't necessarily mark it, and ask if you can -- just
10 take a look at it and ask if that helps you answer my
11 question.
12 A. I don't recall the meeting. It's dated
13 February the 3rd of 1983. I'm assuming that I did attend
14 this meeting, yes.
15 Q. What kinds of collective meetings like
16 this -- I'm looking at a document. We will mark it just
17 so we have it. I'm referring to it as Parker Exhibit
18 Number 7. I will give you a copy here so you can have
19 it.
20 (Whereupon, Parker No. 7 was marked for
21 identification.)
22 Q. (By Mr. Guzy) What kinds of collective
23 meetings like this have you attended during your course at
24 U.S. Sugar? Various other farms and corporations and
25 various other people have attended these meetings from
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1 U.S. Sugar. Can you give me a sense of what meetings
2 you're responsible for attending for the company?
3 A. I don't have any responsibility to attend
4 any of the meetings.
5 Q. What do you attend as a matter of practice?
6 A. Very few.
7 Q. Do you have any that you specifically
8 remember?
9 A. I sure don't. I don't even remember this
10 one.
11 Q. Any idea what might have been discussed at
12 this meeting?
13 A. I have no idea. That was ten years ago.
14 Q. What organizations is U.S. Sugar a member
15 of?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Are they a member of the Florida Sugar Cane
18 League?
19 A. Yes, I know that.
20 Q. Florida Fruit and Vegetable Organization?
21 A. I'm not sure.
22 Q. Any others you can think of?
23 A. I just don't really know what the company
24 membership -- you know, what organizations or associations
25 they may be a member of.
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1 Q. Do you have any responsibilities for working
2 with the league at all?
3 A. I don't know what you mean by "working
4 with".
5 Q. Attending meetings, for example.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Reviewing their publications?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Talking to other members of the league about
10 any subjects?
11 A. I don't know who all are members of the
12 league. So I may talk to them, but I wouldn't do it as a
13 member of the league.
14 Q. Not specifically to transact league
15 business, whatever that may be?
16 A. No, that's correct. No, I wouldn't.
17 Q. You're not involved with any committees of
18 the league?
19 A. No, I'm not.
20 Q. Are you a member of any professional
21 associations?
22 A. The American Society of Sugar Cane
23 Technologists.
24 Q. Any others?
25 A. No. I think that's about it.
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1 Q. Can you tell me a little bit about that
2 society? I'm not familiar with it. How many members are
3 there?
4 A. I don't know the count. There's two
5 divisions, a Louisiana Division and a Florida Division.
6 And each year they have a joint meeting of the two
7 divisions. And basically it's about a two-day meeting and
8 with a presentation of papers written by research people
9 from both Florida and Louisiana.
10 Q. Do you attend those meetings regularly?
11 A. About once every other year or so. I may go
12 to the annual convention and that's it, the joint meeting.
13 Q. What do those papers cover?
14 A. Anything regarding sugarcane production,
15 basically, as well as milling. There's an agricultural
16 and a manufacturing section within the society.
17 Q. Have any of those papers covered phosphorus
18 or nutrient discharge?
19 A. I don't know. I don't remember hearing any,
20 but I have not been to all of them, so I can't say whether
21 they have or not.
22 Q. Do you receive publications from a society?
23 A. We get a journal either at the end -- maybe
24 six months later after the meetings that has the papers
25 that were presented at the meeting.
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1 Q. Do you retain those journals?
2 A. I don't know if I have them or not. I have
3 to check and see. I can't remember if I went to the
4 meeting last year, to tell you the truth.
5 Q. Did you do anything else with the society?
6 A. No. They have meetings once a year, the
7 Florida group does, but I don't go to them.
8 Q. Any other organizations like that?
9 A. Not that I know of. Not that I can think of
10 right now.
11 Q. I have marked the documents that you
12 produced to us earlier today as Numbers 1 through 6. And
13 I have the originals here which I will return to you so
14 you can keep those as you've requested.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. I have marked copies of them. If at any
17 point during the deposition it becomes clear that
18 something about the original is crucial for our
19 understanding, I would ask that we get a color Xerox or
20 another copy of the original, but I don't expect that
21 that's going to be a problem