96 1 Division of Administrative Hearings 2 Department of Administration, State of Florida 3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE ) of FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and, ) 4 WEDGEWORTH FARMS, INC., ) Petitioners, ) 5 V ) DOAH SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) Case 92-3038 6 DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) of Florida; et al., ) 7 Respondents. ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) 8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) 9 Petitioners, ) V ) DOAH 10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) Case 92-3039 DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) 11 of Florida; et al., ) Respondents. ) 12 FLORIDA FRUIT and VEGETABLE ) ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; ) 13 W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) 14 Petitioners, ) V ) DOAH 15 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) Case 92-3040 DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) 16 of Florida; et al., ) Respondents. ) 17 VOLUME II 18 Deposition of Ronald Mierau 19 Taken before April Y. Sapp, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at 20 large, pursuant to notice of taking deposition filed by the Petitioners in the above cause. 21 - - - Thursday June 24, 1993 22 319 Clematis Street, 5th Floor West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 23 9:17 - 11:40 a.m. 1:05 - 3:10 p.m. 24 - - - 97 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of the Petitioners Florida Sugar 3 Cane League, Inc., United State Sugar Corp., and New South Hope, Inc.: 4 Peeples, Earl & Blank, P.A. One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636 5 Two South Biscayne Boulevard Miami, Florida 33131 6 By: MARK T. KOBELINSKI, ESQUIRE 7 On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD: South Florida Water Management District 8 3301 Gun Club Road West Palm Beach, Florida 33406 9 By: JACQUELYN WATERS BIRCH, ESQUIRE 10 11 - - - 98 1 - - - 2 I N D E X 3 - - - 4 5 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 6 Ronald Mierau 7 BY MR. KOBELINSKI 99 8 9 - - - 10 E X H I B I T S - - - 11 NUMBER PAGE 12 EXB. NO. 1 224 13 Memorandum to Ron Bearzotti from Ron Mierau dated 12-5-91 14 EXB. NO. 2 229 15 Map dated 5-10-93 16 99 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 - - - 3 CONTINUED DIRECT (Ronald Mierau) 4 THE WITNESS: I have two corrections for my 5 testimony from yesterday. 6 (Discussion held off the record.) 7 MR. KOBELINSKI: Why don't we go on and put 8 that on the record. 9 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 10 Q. Good morning Mr. Mierau. I would remind 11 you that you're under oath. We'll be proceeding as 12 we did yesterday. 13 Based on a brief discussion we just had 14 prior to going on the record, I understand there's 15 two corrections you'd like to make with regard to 16 yesterday's testimony. Since you did it so 17 eloquently a few moments ago I'll let you proceed to 18 tell us. 19 A. Yesterday I referred to the structures -- 20 structure that takes L-1 to the EAA as G-156. That 21 should be G-136. And the location of G-150 is -- was 22 incorrectly stated as being between L-2 and L-3. In 23 fact, it's much closer to the boundary between L-1 24 and L-2. 25 Q. So G-156 should be? 100 1 A. G-136. Looks similar. 2 Q. And you stated that the -- before I do 3 that, let me get my map out here because I'll 4 flounder. 5 And G-150 which yesterday, if I'm not 6 mistaken, you had stated connected the L-2 borrow 7 ditch with the L-3 borrow ditch? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, you're testifying that it is closer to 10 what location, sir? 11 A. L-1 and L-2. Further north. 12 Q. Is there a structure that does connect the 13 L-2 borrow ditch with the L-3 borrow ditch? 14 A. There's no structure there. 15 Q. What is the purpose or function of the 16 G-150 structure, then? 17 A. G-150 keeps -- when the water is high in 18 L-2 and L-3 it keeps it from going backwards to L-1. 19 Q. Is G-150 actually located along the L-2 or 20 L-1? Do you know specifically or no? 21 A. I'm not sure exactly where the boundary of 22 L-1 and L-2 is. 23 Q. If I understand yesterday and today's 24 corrected testimony, that structure, the G-150, would 25 still -- would not provide any type of egress or 101 1 ingress for water within the EAA? 2 A. Has no effect on the water in the EAA. 3 Q. Yesterday in the discussions of how water 4 flows into the -- out of the EAA you had explained 5 that there the S-6 and S-5A and S-5AS all provide 6 inflows into Water Conservation Area 1, is that 7 correct? 8 A. That's possible. 9 Q. What other inflows are there or inflow 10 structures are there into Water Conservation Area 1 11 from any water basin, from any surrounding area? 12 A. There's a pump from the ENR to Water 13 Conservation Area 1 which isn't yet functional. 14 Q. Anything else? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Is there anything along the L-4 levee? 17 A. You mean a connection between the EAA 18 and -- 19 Q. No. I'm talking about any means by which 20 water comes into Water Conservation Area 1 whether 21 from the EAA or any other source. 22 A. From L-4. 23 Q. I'm not looking at L-4 specifically. I'm 24 saying: Is there any other means for water to enter 25 Water Conservation Area 1? I'm not restricting it to 102 1 the EAA. From any source. 2 A. Along L-40 there's some possible 3 connections to Lake Worth Drainage District on the 4 east side. Has nothing to do with the EAA. 5 Q. Are those pumps or culverts -- what type of 6 structures are those? 7 A. They are culverts. Normally they take 8 water out of Conservation Area 1. 9 Q. Those are gated culverts? 10 A. Overflow culverts. Flashboard so the water 11 flows over the top of them. Normally, the Lake Worth 12 Drainage District has not permitted water into the 13 conservation area that way. It's -- those are there 14 for irrigation purposes. If they were operated 15 differently there might be a chance of putting water 16 into the conservation area. 17 Q. Who regulates the flow of water out of 18 WCA-1 through these Lake Worth Drainage District 19 culverts? 20 A. Lake Worth Drainage District. 21 Q. Do they own the culverts? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Who owns the culverts? 24 A. The District owns the culverts. 25 Q. Are the culverts set up so they can 103 1 literally regulate the flow of water or is it they 2 are just stationary culverts such as a particular 3 point in time water will flow into Lake Worth 4 Drainage District? 5 A. They're controlled to restrict the flow 6 through those culverts. There's a control over that 7 that restricts the flow. 8 Q. Is that with flashboards? 9 A. Yeah. Flows over the top of the gate like 10 flashboards. 11 Q. Is it a gate that raises and lowers like we 12 were discussing yesterday? 13 A. Like flashboards where you drop the top 14 down and let the water run over the top. 15 Q. Does the District provide any input to Lake 16 Worth Drainage District as to how much water they can 17 take out of the Refuge? 18 A. They have got a permit. 19 Q. Is -- that permit is through whom? 20 A. Through Water Management District. 21 Q. So they regulate the flow out of WCA-1 22 through those culverts pursuant to a Water Management 23 permit? 24 A. Consumptive use restriction. 25 Q. And those restrictions are contained within 104 1 the permit, though? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know approximately how much water 4 flows out of those culverts on a number basis? 5 A. I'm not -- I don't know the figures 6 offhand. 7 Q. Does someone measure those flows? 8 A. Lake Worth Drainage District reports them 9 on a routine basis. 10 Q. Does anyone else measure them besides Lake 11 Worth Drainage District? 12 A. Not to my knowledge. 13 Q. Do you know how they measure those flows? 14 A. No. 15 Q. How often do they report those 16 measurements? 17 A. I'm guessing monthly. I'm not sure about 18 that. 19 Q. I believe you stated earlier -- and I'm not 20 trying to tie you down to any particular words. What 21 I had written down is water does not normally flow 22 into WCA-1 through these culverts. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Are there circumstances where water does 25 flow into WCA-1? 105 1 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 Q. To your knowledge has water ever flowed 3 into WCA-1 through these culverts? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Are there any structures other than those 6 we discussed, then, that allow water to either 7 enter -- that allow water to enter Water Conservation 8 Area 1? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Are there any other structures along the 11 L-40 levee in that regard? 12 A. No. 13 Q. I may be wrong, but that's, of course, why 14 I'm asking questions. I appreciate that. But I 15 thought that Acme pump -- or Acme Drainage District's 16 pump that pumped water into WCA-1 from the L-40. 17 A. I lumped those along with the Lake Worth 18 Drainage District. There is a culvert that provides 19 access for Acme to pump and the water from there does 20 go into Water Conservation Area 1. Thank you. 21 That's immediately north of the Lake Worth Drainage 22 District pump. 23 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could you read that back, 24 please? 106 1 (Thereupon, a portion of the record 2 was read by the reporter.) 3 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 4 Q. When you say Lake Worth Drainage District 5 pump -- 6 A. Lake Worth Drainage District culvert. 7 Q. Thank you. 8 (Discussion held off the record.) 9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Going back on. 10 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 11 Q. Who owns the Acme Drainage District 12 culvert? 13 A. The District owns that. 14 Q. Who owns the pump or is there more than one 15 pump? 16 A. Acme owns the pump. 17 Q. Is there more than one pump or just one 18 pump? 19 A. I'm not sure. I believe there's two, but 20 I'm not sure about that. 21 Q. Now, is the culvert and pump complex, does 22 that provide flow in both directions or is that 23 normally only one direction? 24 A. It's -- normally it's drainage set up for 25 drainage. It's possible it does take irrigation or 107 1 supplemental water out of there also. I'm not sure 2 whether it's used for that or not. 3 Q. When you say out of there -- 4 A. I have to check the permit. 5 Q. When you say out of there -- 6 A. Through that culvert. 7 Q. But as opposed to the -- if I understand 8 what you said before, as opposed to the Lake Worth 9 Drainage District, this culvert is used to actually 10 put water into Water Conservation Area 1, is that 11 correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Who measures the flow through that culvert? 14 A. I believe Acme does. Acme reports their 15 pumping to us. I'm not sure if that flow is reported 16 or not other than the time they turn the pump on. 17 Q. Do they also report approximately on a 18 monthly basis to the best of your knowledge? 19 A. I don't know. I can't answer that. 20 Q. Do you know whether there's any gravity 21 flow through the Acme culvert in either direction? 22 A. As I stated, I believe the -- I believe 23 that's mostly pump flow. The primary purpose for 24 their station there is to pump, to provide flood 25 protection to the Acme area and they do that by 108 1 turning on the pump and pumping it to Conservation 2 Area 1. There may be some supplemental water taken 3 out of there but I -- for water use purposes but I am 4 not -- I'm just guessing on that. I don't know 5 whether they have a permit for that or not. 6 Q. Is there -- if there was gravity flow and 7 head differential such normal gravity flow would be 8 from Conservation Area 1 into the Acme district? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Are there any other structures that you can 11 think of that allow water to flow into Water 12 Conservation Area 1? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. Other than the structures we've already 15 discussed what structures are there that allow water 16 to flow out of the water conservation area? 17 A. The primary outlets for Conservation Area 1 18 are S-10A, S-10C and S-10D. 19 Q. I always wondered. Do you know why there's 20 no S-10B or why that letter was skipped? 21 A. I don't know. If I would have named the 22 structures I would have named them differently. 23 Q. Those structures, if I understand 24 correctly, allow flow to go from the water 25 conservation area into 2A, is that correct? 109 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. What other structures are there, again 3 other than the S-6 which we stated could be used on 4 occasion to siphon water, S-5A South, would be Lake 5 Worth Drainage District's, S-10A, C and D which would 6 allow water to be taken out of the water conservation 7 area? 8 A. There's also S-10E which belongs to the 9 District; was put in later for environmental reasons 10 and it also takes water from Conservation Area 1 to 11 Conservation Area 2A. 12 Q. Who do S-10A, C and D belong to? 13 A. The Corps of Engineers. 14 Q. Any other structures we've missed, then, 15 that allow for water to flow out of Water 16 Conservation Area 1 or where water can be pumped out 17 of Water Conservation Area 1? 18 A. Water can flow out of Water Conservation 19 Area 1 through S-39. 20 Q. Where would that water go? 21 A. Goes to the Hillsboro Canal. 22 Q. Any other structures? 23 A. Not to my knowledge. 24 Q. I don't recall from yesterday's testimony. 25 Is S-5A used to siphon water or is that typically the 110 1 water is taken out through S-5AS south? 2 A. Water is taken out S-5AS south. I don't 3 think S-5A has ever served as a siphon. 4 Q. Who operates S-10A, C and D? 5 A. Corps of Engineers operates it and -- what 6 would you say? The U.S. Corps of Engineers operates 7 gate changes and the District implements those 8 changes and is reimbursed for that by the Corps of 9 Engineers. 10 Q. So essentially the Corps operates the 11 structures and pays the District to open or close the 12 gates? 13 A. Yes. They also pay us for opening S-10E. 14 Q. Their structure belongs to the District, I 15 believe you said? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. But they operate it? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Do you have any independent authority to 20 operate S-10E? You meaning the District. 21 A. I imagine we could fight about it if we 22 wanted to. There's never been a disagreement on that 23 one. 24 Q. Who operates the S-5A complex? 25 A. The District operates S-5A complex and in 111 1 some cases the Corps may reimburse us for using S-5A 2 to provide regulatory flow from -- for Lake 3 Okeechobee. 4 Q. Who regulates or operates the S-39 5 structure? 6 A. The District operates S-39. 7 Q. Who owns that structure? 8 A. The District owns S-39. 9 Q. What type of structure was that? I don't 10 believe we discussed that, S-39. 11 A. S-39 is a spillway, gravity spillway. 12 Q. Is that again some sort of a gate that goes 13 up and down regulating the amount of gravity spill? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. If I recall yesterday's testimony the 16 District owns and operates S-6, is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. Again, with a stipulation 18 if S-6 is used for regulation of Lake Okeechobee 19 water levels, the District may have the right to ask 20 for reimbursement. 21 Q. Does the District normally ask for 22 reimbursement when S-6 and S-5A are used for 23 regulatory flows? 24 A. That's all -- its only happened once and we 25 haven't yet received -- we haven't yet billed the 112 1 Corps for that. 2 Q. When you say that's only happened once, its 3 only happened once during the time you've been 4 Director or only happened once since the project has 5 been put into use? 6 A. Its only happened once since the project 7 has been put into use. 8 Q. And, just to clarify, we're talking about 9 used for regulating the water level in Lake 10 Okeechobee, is that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Is the District seeking reimbursement or 13 does the District intend to seek reimbursement? 14 A. The District intends to seek reimbursement. 15 Q. When was this one event? 16 A. It began January of 1993 and terminated 17 April or May. 18 Q. Do you know when in January? 19 A. Close to the beginning of the month. 20 Q. Giving the fact you are saying April or 21 May, I assume that was towards the end of April or 22 early part of May? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. May be jumping ahead of myself. Were S-7 25 and S-8 also used for those purposes during the same 113 1 period? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How will the District determine what to 4 charge the Corps for that service? 5 A. We haven't worked that out yet. 6 Q. Is there a way of -- a means of measuring 7 the flow through those structures attributable to 8 Lake Okeechobee regulation? 9 MS. BIRCH: Object to relevancy and beyond 10 the scope of this witness's expertise. 11 THE WITNESS: It's not my field of 12 expertise, how to bill the Corps for their water 13 control. 14 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 15 Q. I actually was not referring to billing the 16 Corps. 17 Is there a means of determining what flow 18 through the S-5A, 6 and 7 -- S-5A, S-6, S-7 and S-8 19 were attributable to flow from Lake Okeechobee? 20 A. That definition is somewhat arbitrary and 21 something that has to be negotiated. 22 Q. Was there a particular reason for this 23 event? 24 A. Lake Okeechobee was high and to prevent 25 damaging discharges to the estuaries, the water 114 1 was -- as much water was diverted south as was 2 possible, feasible. The water diverted south has 3 additional benefit of adding additional water to 4 Florida Bay, which was environmentally beneficial as 5 well as decreasing environmentally harmful discharges 6 to the St. Lucie and Caloosahatchee estuaries. 7 Q. What are the normal means of regulating the 8 water level in Lake Okeechobee? 9 A. The primary outlet for Lake Okeechobee has 10 traditionally been the Caloosahatchee River and 11 Caloosahatchee Canal. The next most important one 12 would be the St. Lucie Canal and then the combination 13 of what we call the ag area canals in addition to 14 that. Traditionally that's been a rather small 15 amount because water hadn't been pumped south; just 16 gone south by gravity. 17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could you read that back? 18 (Thereupon, a portion of the record 19 was read by the reporter.) 20 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 21 Q. With regard to this particular regulatory 22 release -- and I'm still referring to the one that 23 commenced in early January and went through 24 approximately April-May of this year -- that was 25 still just gravity flow, wasn't it? 115 1 A. As I said, we used S-5A, S-6, S-7, S-8 2 pumps also. 3 Q. So when you are talking about pumping, you 4 are talking about down on the bottom of the EAA, you 5 are not talking about pumping from Lake Okeechobee 6 into the canals; North New River, the Miami, the West 7 Palm Beach? 8 A. As I stated yesterday, S-2 and S-3 doesn't 9 pump into the ag area canals, pumps into Lake 10 Okeechobee. 11 Q. If I recall yesterday's testimony 12 correctly, the only gravity flows for water out of 13 the EAA into the Water Conservation Area 1 would be 14 through the S-7 spillway and the S-8 spillway, is 15 that correct? 16 A. That's correct. You -- there -- it's also 17 possible to take some through S-5A West and S-5A 18 South if water levels are appropriate. 19 Q. I recognize that's possible but does that 20 normally occur? 21 A. No. 22 Q. To your knowledge, has that ever occurred? 23 A. I think it's occurred on occasion. 24 Q. Has it occurred during your tenure as 25 Director? 116 1 A. No. 2 Q. Since the -- 3 A. S-150 is also a gravity flow structure that 4 can take water from there. 5 Q. S-351, S-352 and S-354 are the three large 6 gravity flow structures that allow water to come out 7 of Lake Okeechobee into the EAA, is that correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. During the normal course of the year those -- 10 if we have to go structure by structure please let me 11 know -- are those normally kept open or closed or is 12 there really no set pattern to that? 13 A. They are normally closed except for water 14 supply releases. 15 Q. How often do water supply releases occur? 16 A. Quite frequently. 17 Q. If I recall correctly -- and I might be 18 recalling incorrectly -- S-351, 352, 354 are owned 19 and operated by the District. 20 A. They're operated by the District for water 21 supply purposes. The Corps resolves (sic) right 22 ownership -- maintains ownership rights for all the 23 structures around Lake Okeechobee. 24 Q. When you refer to water supply purposes for 25 S-351, 352 and 354 is that water supply -- what is 117 1 that water supply for? 2 A. Primary for the EAA. There's also some 3 water supply to the lower east coast. Primary via 4 the Miami Canal. 5 Q. And when you say east coast, you are 6 referring to the east coast urban areas? 7 A. East coast urban areas, correct. 8 Q. In the normal course -- 9 A. Water could go also to Everglades National 10 Park for water supply purposes from Lake Okeechobee 11 via those structures. 12 Q. When you say could, does it normally do so 13 or is that just a possibility given the structure of 14 the project? 15 A. If there's not sufficient water in the 16 conservation areas to meet minimum flow requirements 17 it comes from Lake Okeechobee. 18 Q. Would I be correct, then, that S-351, 352 19 and 354 are normally kept closed for most of the 20 rainy season? 21 A. That's correct. Today S-351 and 352 are 22 open. We've had -- it's been dry for the last few 23 days. When we have short dry spells we also use that 24 for -- to provide irrigation water. 25 Q. Is the EAA a net producer or consumer of 118 1 water on an annual basis? 2 MS. BIRCH: Object to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm afraid you'll have to ask 4 somebody that's more current on the water budget 5 then I am. 6 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 7 Q. Where does the lower east coast get its 8 water supply from? 9 A. Part of it comes from local rainfall; part 10 of it comes from conservation areas and part of it 11 comes from Lake Okeechobee. 12 Q. Prior to this year, as I understand your 13 testimony, the part that came from Lake Okeechobee 14 was a small portion, is that correct? 15 A. Not necessarily. 16 Q. Okay. Gravity flow then through from Lake 17 Okeechobee prior to this year? 18 A. We were saying -- what I said before was 19 gravity flow for our regulatory flows comes from Lake 20 Okeechobee; regulatory flows, not water supply flows. 21 Regulatory flows to our flows to maintain water 22 levels below certain limits in Lake Okeechobee. 23 Those have been relatively small over the last year. 24 Q. I was confusing the two. 25 A. Yes. 119 1 Q. Is there a permit or a some sort of 2 regulatory device which controls the level of Lake 3 Okeechobee? 4 A. There's a regulation schedule for Lake 5 Okeechobee. 6 Q. Who sets that regulation schedule? 7 A. The Corps of Engineers sets the regulation 8 schedule. 9 Q. Now, is there -- within that regulation 10 schedule, does it discuss or provide as to how the 11 water is to be either -- for instance, if the lake 12 needs to be lowered, does it regulate as to how 13 discharges or the lowering of the lake is to occur? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And is that also within the regulation 16 schedule? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How is that specified to be done? 19 A. There's generally a region in which it says 20 all maximum releases to be made through all possible 21 outlets. That's when the lake is very much above the 22 desired levels. When it's at moderate levels then it 23 says levels not to exceed such and such, which are 24 essentially non-damaging discharges and there's some 25 levels below that which provide for a more natural 120 1 hydrograph releases which are less damaging to the 2 estuaries. 3 Q. What would be -- 4 A. Also, it also states in order of priority 5 for those. 6 Q. What would be the more natural hydrograph 7 of these releases? 8 A. More natural hydrograph would be rather 9 than having a large discharge for a short period of 10 time to gradually increase the water levels more or 11 up to a peak and then break them back down again over 12 a time period. Something that a hydrologist would 13 refer to as a high runoff hydrograph. 14 Q. Does it prioritize the exit points for 15 discharges? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And what is that priority or -- 18 A. For Lake Okeechobee, there's -- the limits 19 from the Caloosahatchee are the largest limits. From 20 the St. Lucie Canal are also specified and says 21 maximum possible releases through the agricultural 22 canals under almost all regulatory conditions. 23 That's been interpreted differently over the last 24 year then it has in the past. 25 Q. When you say all possible releases through 121 1 the agricultural area -- 2 A. Maximum possible. 3 Q. -- are you referring to the EAA there? 4 A. Yes. Specifically S-351, 352, 354. 5 Q. What -- prior to this year how was that 6 interpreted? 7 A. Prior to this year that was interpreted as 8 rather conservative gravity flow releases. 9 Q. Whose interpretation was that? 10 A. The District's interpretation with the 11 Corps' concurrence. 12 (Discussion held off the record.) 13 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 14 Q. I believe where we left off we were 15 discussing the regulatory releases from Lake 16 Okeechobee. And again, just as I understand your 17 testimony, essentially prior to this year it was 18 interpreted by the District with the Corps' 19 concurrence that the maximum possible releases 20 through the EAA structures S-351, 352 and 354 21 essentially meant gravity releases through the EAA 22 relative to the conservative ones? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You are the Director of Operations so 25 obviously you had that understanding prior to this 122 1 year, is that correct? 2 A. We didn't have the opportunity prior to 3 this year. We were not above regulation schedule 4 until this year. 5 Q. Prior to this year have you ever been above 6 regulation schedule? By that I mean has the District 7 ever been above regulation schedule for the lake 8 while you were the Director of Operations? 9 A. No. 10 Q. My question was going towards -- or where I 11 was leading with this was: How is it that you 12 believe that that was the -- with the Corps' 13 concurrence? How do you -- 14 A. The Corps determines what the regulatory 15 releases are from Lake Okeechobee and have -- what 16 the capacity of those channels are is coordinated 17 closely between the Corps of Engineers and Water 18 Management District. 19 Q. When you state the Corps makes a 20 determination of the regulatory releases, are you 21 saying as to the amount of water released or actually 22 through what structure the water will be released? 23 A. Well, through what structure and to some 24 extent -- well, through the Caloosahatchee and 25 St. Lucie Canal in particular. They operate those 123 1 structures, so they almost totally determine that. 2 We can ask them to do something else, but they have a 3 final say. 4 Q. If I recall correctly they are the ones who 5 are directing you how to open or close the 351, 352 6 and 354 structures, is that correct? 7 A. For the -- during regulation times. As I 8 said, they delegate that responsibility for water 9 supply. 10 Q. Were you involved in the -- I don't really 11 recall -- reinterpretation of how water would be 12 released for regulatory releases out of Lake 13 Okeechobee? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When did that occur? 16 A. We have been talking about -- there's been 17 some discussion of that over the period of time since 18 I became the division Director of Operations. 19 Q. Who would -- 20 A. One of the things that made that 21 possibility realistic was the hump removal in the 22 Miami Canal, the hump removal in the North New River 23 Canal and better monitoring and control of water 24 levels in the EAA in general. 25 Q. The hump removal you're referring to was 124 1 part of the IAP, the Interim Action Plan? 2 A. No. 3 Q. When did the hump removal occur? 4 A. Late 80s. 5 Q. When was the Interim Action Plan again? 6 A. I'm not sure. I believe it was 1979. 7 Somewhere in that area. Late 70s or early 80s. 8 Q. Why were the humps removed in the canals? 9 A. To improve conveyance and we had a 10 willing -- some of that was done by free digging 11 contracts so there was a contractor that was willing 12 to do the work for relatively modest sums. We needed -- 13 we could use the flow capacity. The Interim Action 14 Plan was one of the reasons for that. The way the 15 system worked before, before the Interim Action Plan, 16 there was a high area in these, in the North New 17 River, the Miami Canal approximately at the mid point 18 and the water north of that area went to Lake 19 Okeechobee and the water south went to the 20 conservation areas. With the establishment of the 21 Interim Action Plan we were attempting to divert as 22 much water as possible away from the lake which would 23 mean we'd have to take some of the water that would 24 normally have gone easily towards Lake Okeechobee and 25 force it down towards the conservation areas. It 125 1 wasn't possible to do a lot of that without the hump 2 removal. The hump removal wasn't part of the IAP 3 plan. IAP was a philosophy for how to move water. 4 Q. Did the IAP contemplate the hump removal? 5 A. I don't believe so. I wasn't involved in 6 negotiations. 7 Q. Were the -- was the hump removal done in 8 anticipation of a reinterpretation of how regulatory 9 releases would be made out of Lake Okeechobee? 10 A. No. One of the major emphasis for the hump 11 removal was Miami Canal was used to supply water to 12 south Dade County and when Lake Okeechobee is very 13 low, it is difficult to get water down there. And 14 one of the reasons dating way back was, particularly 15 in the Miami Canal, to see if we couldn't work out a 16 way to improve the capacity so we could deliver water 17 for water supply purposes at low lake stages. 18 Q. Now, if I understand your testimony, there 19 was a hump in the Miami River and the North New River 20 Canal? 21 A. Yeah. Miami Canal was a major concern; 22 North New River. 23 Q. Miami Canal, excuse me. 24 Was there a hump in the Hillsboro Canal? 25 A. I think there was some there also. We also 126 1 released some free digging contracts there. 2 Q. And what about the West Palm Beach Canal? 3 A. No. 4 Q. When you say free digging contracts, were 5 these people who essentially wanted whatever the hump 6 was made of? I'm just trying to understand. 7 A. They wanted the dirt. 8 Q. They wanted the dirt. Okay. 9 Worked out well for everyone then? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who was involved in the discussions, which 12 I assume, was between the District and Corps, with 13 regard to reinterpretation of regulatory releases 14 from Lake Okeechobee? 15 A. Carol White. I'm not sure. Prior to when 16 I joined the District I'm not sure what negotiations 17 or what discussions went on. Negotiations I think is 18 too strong a word. Carol White was my counterpart in 19 the Corps of Engineers at the time I took my current 20 position and we had several philosophical discussions 21 on how operations could be improved. 22 Q. And that occurred over the last essentially 23 two or three years? 24 A. Yes. 25 Carol White retired last year. 127 1 Q. So discussions essentially occurred from 2 1990 through '92? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When you say Carol White, I believe you 5 used the term counterpart. 6 A. Uh huh. 7 Q. Is he then the person that used to be in 8 charge of opening and closing the gates as you put it 9 for the Corps? 10 A. That's correct. Out of the Jacksonville 11 office. 12 Q. Do you deal with any other office of the 13 Corps for purposes of operating the -- 14 A. Since Carol White's retired, his 15 replacement is a guy named Jim Vearil. 16 Q. Do you deal with any other office other 17 than the Jacksonville office with regard to the 18 operation of the project? 19 A. The Corps also has an office in Clewiston 20 and from time to time we ask them to make changes or 21 request them to make changes for the -- to the 22 culverts around -- miscellaneous culverts around Lake 23 Okeechobee. 24 Q. The Lake Okeechobee regulation schedule, as 25 I understand it, is being contemplated being lowered; 128 1 is that correct? 2 A. We're currently under interim lowering for 3 the Lake Okeechobee regulation schedule. That's 4 commonly referred to as Run 25B I think and the Corps 5 is doing some additional studies on lake regulation 6 schedules; raising Lake Okeechobee as well as 7 lowering it. 8 Q. Is there a proposed new regulation schedule 9 for Lake Okeechobee that's being considered? 10 A. It's part of an environmental impact 11 statement. It's a complex process. 12 Q. This Run 25, what is its purpose? 13 A. Essentially provides for the pulse releases 14 that we talked about at -- when there's a danger of 15 Lake Okeechobee going over the previous regulation 16 schedule. In order to prevent environmentally 17 damaging discharges to the St. Lucie and 18 Caloosahatchee estuaries, there's a provision for 19 these natural hydrograph releases that I spoke about 20 and concurrent with those maximum feasible releases 21 to the south to the EAA canals. 22 Q. So the regulatory releases from January 23 through April or May through the EAA have been part 24 of Run 25? 25 A. Yes. 129 1 Q. And -- 2 A. That was authorized by our Board of 3 Directors last year. 4 Q. And, as I understand from what you just 5 said, there are proposed regulation schedules for 6 Lake Okeechobee currently pending that would both 7 raise and lower the regulation schedule, is that 8 correct? 9 A. Not at the same time. Different regulation 10 schedules are being considered for Lake Okeechobee. 11 Q. How many different ones? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Are you involved at all in that? 14 A. On peripheral discussions. That's all. I 15 know we asked them to consider a lower regulation 16 schedule and they were of the opinion at that time 17 they also had to consider some higher regulation 18 schedules. 19 Q. When you say you asked them to consider a 20 lower regulation schedule I assume you're referring 21 to the District. 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Why would the District want a lower 24 regulation schedule for Lake Okeechobee? 25 A. There was environmental pressure to lower 130 1 Lake Okeechobee stages. 2 Q. Would lowering Lake Okeechobee have any 3 impact upon water supply for the area south of the 4 lake? 5 A. I think you'd have to ask the people that 6 are doing the modeling for that. That's also part of 7 the EIS that the Corps is working on. 8 Q. Well, with regard to your opening and 9 closing gates and moving water around when the lake 10 stages are lower, does that impact your transferring 11 water or providing water supply to areas south of the 12 lake? 13 A. When Lake Okeechobee is low enough it 14 impacts it. In the current stages it has no effect. 15 Q. When you say current stages are you 16 referring to now or current stages meaning current 17 regulation schedule? 18 A. Whenever we're at or above regulation 19 schedule there's no impact. We're restricted by 20 other conveyance capabilities to the south, not Lake 21 Okeechobee stages. Lake Okeechobee stages come into 22 play in limiting discharges through those structures 23 for water supply releases when Lake Okeechobee is 24 low. 25 Q. Under the -- are you familiar with the 131 1 regulation schedule that the District has requested 2 of the Corps for Lake Okeechobee? 3 A. We asked them to officially adopt Run 25 or 4 some version like that and to consider an even 5 further lowering of that. Further than that I am not 6 very -- not real conversive (sic) with the exact 7 details. 8 Q. Well, would the levels proposed by the 9 District impact water supply for areas south of the 10 lake? 11 A. Like I said, that takes some detailed 12 modeling and some analysis and I'm not prepared to 13 make that statement. 14 Q. Have you been consulted with regard to that 15 or the Operation Department been consulted with 16 regard to that? 17 A. With regard to whether it would -- 18 Q. Whether lowering the Lake Okeechobee 19 regulation schedule as proposed by the District would 20 impact water supply for areas south of the lake? 21 A. I can't make that statement. No, I haven't 22 been consulted on whether -- whether there would be 23 that direct impact. Naturally, when you -- as I 24 stated before, when you have very low stages, stages 25 on the order of 10 or 11 feet in GVD, it's more 132 1 difficult to get water out of Lake Okeechobee and 2 Lake Okeechobee levels influence how much water we 3 can get out of Lake Okeechobee. That is not entirely 4 obvious whether changing the regulation schedule 5 would increase the frequency of those low stages in 6 Lake Okeechobee. 7 Q. Wouldn't a lower regulation schedule 8 exacerbate the impacts of a drought? 9 MS. BIRCH: Objection. It's outside the 10 expertise of this witness. 11 THE WITNESS: I haven't studied that 12 situation. 13 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 14 Q. Well -- 15 A. That takes a detailed modeling analysis. 16 If you lower the regulation schedule by a half foot, 17 doesn't mean you would experience a half foot lower 18 conditions under all scenarios. 19 Q. Who at the District would have the most 20 knowledge as to its impact on water supply? 21 A. Our Planning Department is conducting 22 studies in that regard and, as I said, the Corps of 23 Engineers is also preparing an environmental impact 24 statement for Lake Okeechobee regulation schedules. 25 Q. Do you know who at the Planning Department 133 1 would be looking at that? 2 A. I imagine it would be under Sharon Trost. 3 Q. Do you know who specifically or is it 4 Sharon Trost? 5 A. I don't know who specifically. 6 Q. Have they been consulting with anyone from 7 your department on that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. But that is something to your knowledge 10 that is being done? 11 A. My division. I'm not sure about my 12 department. 13 Q. Division is what I asked. Thank you. 14 Under the new interpretation of regulatory 15 releases for Lake Okeechobee is it anticipated that 16 more water will flow through the EAA into the Water 17 Conservation Areas? 18 A. If water is above regulation, more water 19 will flow through the EAA into the conservation areas 20 than would without our new interpretation of what 21 maximum feasible flows through the EAA are. 22 Q. I guess my question, which was probably 23 answered with that, is that this January to April or 24 May was not a one time event, unique event that will 25 likely not occur again in the future? 134 1 MS. BIRCH: Object to form. 2 THE WITNESS: You're asking for conjecture. 3 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 4 Q. Well, no. I'm asking since you are the 5 person who regulates how things operate, are you 6 going back to the old interpretation or is this new 7 interpretation something you are proceeding forthwith 8 into the future? 9 I thought you were referring to whether 10 Lake Okeechobee would ever get above regulation. 11 Q. No. 12 MS. BIRCH: What's the question? 13 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 14 Q. The question is: Was this reinterpretation 15 which resulted in the increase in regulatory releases 16 from Lake Okeechobee through the EAA into the water 17 conservation areas or is that a one time event or is 18 that interpretation -- reinterpretation, if I may, 19 will that continue into the future? 20 A. In terms of what the discharge capacity of 21 those -- the ag area canals are, currently I believe 22 we're not going to go back to some more conservative 23 interpretation of what that capacity is. In terms of 24 what regulatory releases are made from Lake 25 Okeechobee to the south may be influenced by further 135 1 proceedings in regard to quality of water that goes 2 into conservation areas, that hasn't been discussed 3 to my knowledge. 4 Q. Just so I understand what you just said, 5 are you saying that that may, in other words, you are 6 guessing that could happen or that's currently being 7 discussed that may change the reinterpretation? 8 A. I'm guessing that may happen. 9 Q. But you are not aware of any discussions in 10 that regard right now? 11 A. (Shakes Head.) 12 Q. Does the reinterpretation of the manner by 13 which regulatory releases are made from Lake 14 Okeechobee, i.e. more of them made through the EAA, 15 impact water supply for the water conservation areas, 16 the Park and the lower east coast? 17 A. No. Not normally. 18 Q. Why not? 19 A. When those large releases are being made 20 we're not normally under water supply conditions. 21 Q. What conditions would you be under? 22 A. Well when Lake Okeechobee is above 23 regulation scheduling, usually we've got more water 24 than we need. 25 Q. Everywhere, I guess. 136 1 A. Generally. Generally speaking. That's not 2 always true, but as a general rule, that holds pretty 3 well. 4 Q. You had mentioned that the water from this 5 water release regulatory release from January through 6 April or May had the added benefit of getting more 7 water down to Florida Bay. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How? If you could take me from Lake 10 Okeechobee, explain to me how it gets down there. 11 A. Regardless of which conservation area you 12 put it into, when the conservation areas are at 13 regulation, all that water ends up in Conservation 14 Area 3A. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. From 3A it's released through the S-12 17 structures as a primary outlet into Everglades 18 National Park. 19 Q. Who operates the 12 structures? 20 A. Corps of Engineers operates the 12 21 structures very similar to the procedure I described 22 for the S-10 structures. They pay us to go out and 23 open the gates. 24 Q. Okay. Is there a -- are you familiar with 25 what they use or what plan they use for opening and 137 1 closing the 12 structures? 2 A. It's commonly referred to as Rainfall 3 Driven Plan. 4 Q. How does increasing the amount of water 5 that essentially that's in Water Conservation 3A 6 increase the water in Florida Bay if the 12 7 structures are operated under the Rainfall Driven 8 Plan? 9 A. When the regulation schedule in 10 Conservation Area 3A is above the upper limit then 11 maximum discharges are made through the S-12 and S-3 12 structures and S-33 and that's been the case all 13 spring. 14 Q. With regard to the regulatory releases you 15 have these increased ones you've made from Lake 16 Okeechobee. Where were they primarily made? How did 17 they get through the EAA? Did they essentially go 18 equally through the Miami Canal, North New River 19 Canal, the Hillsboro Canal and the West Palm Beach 20 Canal or did they take a specific route? 21 A. We used all of those. Most of the water 22 went through the Miami and North New River canals and 23 a fair amount went through the Hillsboro Canal and 24 lesser amount went through the West Palm Beach Canal. 25 Q. Those -- the water that went through the 138 1 Hillsboro and the West Palm Beach would then have 2 gone into Water Conservation Area 1? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Okay. They would have exited from what, 5 the S-10A, C and D structures? 6 A. That's correct. S-10E was also open. 7 Q. From there how would they proceed to 3A? 8 A. Then they would go through S-11 structures, 9 S-11A, B and C. 10 Q. Okay. Is there a canal along I guess what 11 appears to be L-68A? 12 A. There's a borrow ditch on the western side 13 of the L -- 14 L-68A or L-67A? 15 Q. No. 8A. 16 A. Where's L-68? 17 Q. That's right down below the S-11 18 structures. 19 A. Okay. L-68A. Yeah. There's somewhat -- 20 there's a borrow ditch along on the conservation area 21 side of L-68A. 22 Q. Is that where most of the water that comes 23 out of 11 goes into? 24 A. Would work its way down to. Also flows 25 over land into that area. 139 1 Q. Into the Miami Canal, then? 2 A. Into the Miami Canal or could be 3 intercepted by L-67A. L-67A goes on past S-151. 4 Q. The L-67A has a borrow ditch on the 5 northwest side? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. At what point are releases made through 8 S-144, 145, 146 into -- from Conservation Area 2A and 9 2B? 10 A. If Conservation Area 2B is low enough then 11 we open those and if Conservation Area 2A is above 12 schedule we open those until Conservation Area 2B is 13 filled up and then we close them. 14 Q. How often does that occur? 15 A. Normally it occurs whenever Conservation 16 Area 2A is high. That was the case all spring. We 17 closed those structures early because we had some 18 problems with -- for environmental reasons. We had 19 some problems with deer getting too wet in 20 Conservation Area 2B so we closed those earlier than 21 we normally would have. 22 Q. Who owns the S-144, 145, 146 structures? 23 A. The Corps of Engineers. 24 Q. Who operates them? 25 A. Corps of Engineers operates them also and 140 1 they pay us to move the gates for them. 2 Q. Where does water go once it gets into 2B? 3 Is there a particular release? Do you make releases 4 from 2B? 5 A. We don't make releases from 2B. 6 Q. We did it for Water Conservation Area 1 in 7 the EAA. What are the means by which water exits 2A? 8 A. Water -- the primary exit for 2A is S-11A, 9 B and C. 10 Q. Those are owned and operated by whom? 11 A. By the Corps of Engineers. 12 Q. Do they likewise pay you to actually do the 13 manual opening and closing of the structures? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. All right. What other structures are 16 there? We also discussed S-144, 145 and 146? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Anything else? 19 A. That's the primary way of getting water out 20 of Conservation Area 2A. 21 Q. Are there any other secondary means or 22 other means of doing so? 23 A. Not really. 24 Q. S-39, if I recall, was a means of drawing 25 water from Water Conservation Area 1 into the 141 1 Hillsboro Canal, is that correct? 2 A. (Nods.) 3 Q. Does that allow water from Conservation 4 Area 2 out? 5 A. No. You can take water from Conservation 6 Area 2A into North New River Canal through S-34. 7 There's a little complex I'm not sure we want to talk 8 about that connects Conservation Area 2A with S-34. 9 It also goes into Conservation Area 3A there, so 10 there's a little complex that doesn't really make a 11 difference operationally. 12 Q. Is that used much to take water out of 2A 13 into the North New River Canal? 14 A. We use that for water supply purposes of 15 the North New River Canal. 16 Q. Who owns that structure and operates it? 17 A. Which one, S-34? 18 Q. S-34, yeah. 19 A. S-34 is owned and operated by the District. 20 Q. Is that operated pursuant to a regulation 21 schedule? 22 A. No. 23 Q. I see also on my map S-143. What would 24 that be? 25 A. S-143. Oh. S-143 is one of those culverts 142 1 that controls interchange of water between 2 Conservation Area 2A and that area between the levees 3 that separate -- there's two levees -- several levees 4 that separates Conservation Area 2B from the 5 interior. Another one that separates Conservation 6 Area 3A from that joint there. There's a canal that 7 goes in between those that goes down to S-34. So you 8 can take water from 2A between those two levees 9 through S-34 and there's S-142 is also related to 10 that interchange of water that way so we can divert 11 water into Conservation Area 3A or into North New 12 River Canal through that complex. 13 Q. What about S-141? 14 A. 141 is a very small structure that connects 15 Conservation Area 2B and we can use it for overflow 16 in 2B but it's not a primary outlet. 17 Q. Okay. What is S-124? 18 A. S-124 controls seepage out of the L-35A 19 levee to the North New River Canal. There's a borrow -- 20 on the east side of L-35A levee there's a borrow 21 canal and S-124 controls stages in that canal. 22 Q. S-38A, what is that? 23 A. Oh. S-38A is -- let me point that out to 24 counsel. 25 Q. Somewhere around there, (indicating.) 143 1 A. This area here, (indicating.) S-38A is in 2 the borrow ditch for L-36 and that controls water 3 levels, primary seepage into L-36 borrow from 4 Conservation Area 2A and controls how much of that 5 can get into C-14. 6 Q. And the borrow ditch for the L-36 -- yeah. 7 L-36 is on the east side? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. What is S-38? 10 A. S-38 is a means of taking water from 11 Conservation Area 2A into C-14 for water supply 12 purposes. 13 Q. Is that used? 14 A. It's used for water supply purposes. 15 Q. What is S-39A? 16 A. S-39A is another structure in that borrow 17 canal in the L-36 borrow canal that allows taking 18 water from the Hillsboro Canal into L-36 borrow or 19 conversely bringing it the other way into the 20 Hillsboro Canal. 21 Q. S-38B? 22 A. That's another one that just controls water 23 levels in L-36 borrow. 24 Q. It does not allow water to come into or go 25 out of Conservation Area 2A? 144 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. District owns and operates S-39A, S-38B and 3 S-38A? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Does the District monitor the releases 6 through S-38A? 7 A. We monitor gate openings, yeah. 8 Q. Following down below the 11 structures 9 along the L-67A borrow canal what is S-151? 10 A. S-151 is a structure from the -- what's 11 labeled Miami Canal on your map down. It allows 12 water to go from Conservation Area 3A into 13 Conservation Area 3B. It's currently the only way of 14 getting water there. 15 Q. Is that normally opened or closed? 16 A. Normally closed. When Conservation Area 3A 17 is above regulation schedule, I'll open that 18 structure and put water into Conservation Area 3B 19 similar to the relationship between 2A and 2B. It's 20 also used when water supply is necessary to the south 21 Dade conveyance system from Lake Okeechobee or to the 22 east coast for water supply purposes. 23 Q. How is it used for that purpose? 24 A. If you open S-151 and S-337 you can get 25 water to go from Conservation Area 3B down south 145 1 along the L-30 and into the south Dade conveyance 2 system. You can also open S-32 and put water into 3 the Miami Canal which brings water to some Dade 4 County well fields along the Miami Canal. 5 Q. S-151 does not regulate the flow of water 6 in the Miami Canal itself, does it? 7 A. Well, Miami Canal continues through S-151 8 so in that sense it does. If you close 151 there's 9 no water moving in the Miami Canal from Conservation 10 Area 3A into 3B. 11 Q. Okay. I'm afraid you lost me. 12 Is 151 -- S-151 normally kept opened or 13 closed? 14 A. It's opened for water supply and for 15 regulation of Conservation Area 3A. It's been opened 16 for a long time this year. 17 Q. When it's closed does the Miami Canal dry 18 out, then? 19 A. Miami Canal -- which portion of the Miami 20 Canal? 21 Q. Down east of S-151. 22 A. The portion of the water levels in Miami 23 Canal between S-151 and S-32 are dependent in that 24 case on the stages in Conservation Area 3B. 25 Q. What about east of S-32? 146 1 A. East of S-32 currently we call the Miami 2 Canal C-6 in that area. There's plenty of water in 3 C-6 of -- due to local ground water conditions and 4 rainfall in the area. During water supply conditions 5 we bring the water in that area to that area, but it 6 doesn't mean that Miami Canal is going to dry up if 7 we shut off that structure. 8 Q. Do you bring water into that area through 9 S-151? 10 A. Yes. Among other structures. 11 Q. How else would you get water to that 12 structure? 13 A. To? 14 Q. Down to S-32, what you are referring to the 15 C-6 for water supply purposes. 16 A. If you take it from conservation area to 17 S-32 the only way to get it there is through 151. If 18 you want to get it into C-6, you would open S-32 19 also. So you would take and open S-151 and S-32 and 20 bring the water down that way. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. S-31. I'm sorry. S-31 is on the Miami 23 Canal. S-32 controls water level in L-33 -- controls 24 the water going from L-33 into C-6. 25 Q. The L-33 borrow ditch is on the east side? 147 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. What is the S-9 structure for? 3 A. S-9 provides drainage for the western part 4 of C-11. 5 Q. Is that a pump or is that a gated 6 structure? 7 A. S-9 is a pump. 8 Q. And in which direction does it pump? 9 A. It pumps from C-11 into Conservation Area 10 3A. 11 Q. Does the District own and operate S-9? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And what -- S-9 pumps into 3A or 3B? 14 A. 3A. 15 Q. Who monitors the flow in S-9? 16 A. The District monitors pumping at S-9. 17 Q. Anyone else? 18 A. No. 19 Q. How often is that in use? 20 A. Very frequently. 21 Q. How does water get into and out of Water 22 Conservation Area 3A? I believe we discussed 23 starting at the upper left-hand corner a culvert that 24 comes from L-3 which escapes me. What number is 25 that? 148 1 A. G-89. 2 Q. Going? 3 A. Going which way? 4 Q. From L-3 borrow ditch into Water 5 Conservation Area 3. 6 A. G-155. 7 Q. East of that you have S-8? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Then you have the Holey Land? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Proceeding further along you come to S-150, 12 S-7 and I believe there's also an S-7 spillway. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Are you talking about all the conservation 16 areas? 17 Q. No. Just referring to 3A, so it would be 18 S-150 is the only one? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Proceeding down L-38 west there are no 21 structures along that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Proceeding then down south we have S-11A, B 24 and C which we have discussed. S-142, if I recall 25 correctly, allowed water to flow into 3A from 149 1 essentially a canal that receives water at L-35B? 2 A. Right. I guess you could say that. 3 There's a canal in between that connects Conservation 4 Area 2A with S-34 and that runs in between 5 Conservation Area 2A, 2B and 3A and it's that canal 6 that ties S-352 into -- S-352 ties that canal into 7 Conservation Area 3A. 8 Q. The canal that we're referring that runs 9 between 2B and 3A is that actually the North New 10 River Canal? 11 A. I'm not sure what the designation of that 12 is. I guess you could probably say that. 13 Q. Okay. I mean it's not a small borrow 14 ditch, it's a true canal? 15 A. It's a pretty good size. 16 Q. Then proceeding then further down south -- 17 have I missed any structures yet? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Proceeding further down south along the 20 L-68A, is the next structure that allows water to 21 come into 3A S-9? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. All right. Proceeding then further south 24 we come to S-151 is the next structure that allows 25 water? 150 1 A. To go out. 2 Q. S-151 allows water to go out not in? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. There are no other structures on L-67A? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Although there are some contemplated in the 7 Modified Water GDM for the Shark River Slough, is 8 that correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Proceeding on down L-67A we're coming to an 11 area we have not discussed yet which I believe the 12 first structure would be the S-333? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. What does that do? 15 A. S-333 allows water to go from Conservation 16 Area 3A into L-29. 17 Q. For what purpose? 18 A. Primary purpose for that is to take water 19 into the northeast Shark River Slough and goes under 20 Tamiami Trail. L-29 borrow is north of Tamiami Trail 21 and south of Conservation Area 2B. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Water goes under the road into the portion 24 of the Park known as northeast Shark River Slough. 25 Q. When you say a portion of the Park, that's 151 1 the portion that will be added to the Park? 2 A. That's correct. I think the Park already 3 has partial ownership. 4 Q. Okay. And the -- are those culverts 5 underneath the Tamiami Trail then? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are those gated or controlled by any means 8 or are they just opened culverts? 9 A. They're open culverts. 10 Q. Does it require a particular level in the 11 L-29? Is there a borrow canal along L-29? 12 A. Yes. Borrow canal is on the south side of 13 L-29 level and on the north side of Tamiami Trail. 14 Q. Does it require any particular level with 15 the L-29 borrow canal for water to flow into that 16 east Shark River Slough area? 17 A. I'm not sure exactly at what level the 18 water would stop flowing out of that canal but, yes, 19 if the water was low enough it would go out. 20 Q. Is the L-29 borrow canal also used for 21 water supply to any of the urban areas or any other 22 area other than the shark -- east Shark River Slough 23 area? 24 A. As part of the south Dade conveyance 25 system. Alternate route for the south Dade 152 1 conveyance system, rather than taking the water from 2 Conservation Area 3 down L-30 is to use L-29 by S-333 3 and S-334 to bring it to L-31 North. 4 Q. Why would you use one or the other? 5 A. Normally you use L-30. Use L-29 and that 6 way there's a lot of losses that goes into that -- we 7 lose a lot of water in Shark River Slough because of 8 the uncontrolled culverts under Tamiami Trail. We 9 contemplated using that at times and, as a matter of 10 fact, we have historically opened 334 and brought it 11 down that way occasionally. It's not a common 12 occurrence. I was thinking of using it for that 13 purpose last year, but decided not to. 14 Q. Just so I understand, as far as getting 15 water to the C-4, how would you do that, getting 16 water to C-4? 17 A. Well, C-4 isn't -- is not the primary route 18 for south Dade conveyance system. South Dade 19 conveyance system would either take water from L-30 20 or L-29 and put it into L-31 North which goes north 21 and south south of that junction. 22 Q. Okay. Well, how would you get it down to 23 L-31 North then? 24 A. From which one? 25 Q. Well -- 153 1 A. From L-29 you'd open S-334 and go around 2 the corner there. 3 Q. All right. If you were getting it from, 4 for instance, the Miami Canal or wouldn't that 5 normally be -- 6 A. You don't get it -- oh. If you get it from 7 the northern route through S-151 -- the primary route 8 we currently use is we open 151, we open S-337, 9 S-338. 10 Q. 338. Okay. Is there then a borrow canal 11 on the western side of L-30? 12 A. That's -- no. The eastern side of L-30. 13 Q. Okay. So that's actually outside of 14 Conservation Area 3B? 15 A. That's correct. 337 takes it from the 16 inside of Conservation Area 3B to the outside. 17 Q. What does 336 do? 18 A. That allows some water to go into C-4 but 19 C-4 has very limited capacity on the back end. You 20 can't really get very much water in that one. 21 Q. Heading back towards -- actually we got a 22 bit sidetracked when we hit S-333. 23 Conservation Area 3A, why don't you 24 proceed, then, west of S-333. Explain to me what 25 structures there are there. 154 1 A. We've got -- the primary outflow structures 2 from Conservation Area 3A are S-12D, S-12C, S-12B and 3 S-12A. 4 Q. Okay. And -- 5 A. Those four structures are primary outlets 6 for Conservation Area 3A. All regulatory flow goes 7 that way except for 333. 8 Q. What type of structures are those? 9 A. They're spillway structures. 10 Q. What is S-12F? 11 A. That's a little -- that's a small canal 12 that -- small structure that controls water levels 13 between a small borrow ditch on the north side of 14 Tamiami Trail down to the south side. Doesn't have a 15 lot of capacity. Doesn't make a lot of difference 16 whether it's opened or closed. 17 Q. But that goes from 3A? 18 A. From north of -- no. It goes -- there's a 19 borrow canal on the south side of -- on the north 20 side of Tamiami Trail and it goes from the north side 21 of Tamiami Trail to the south side of Tamiami Trail. 22 Q. So S-12F would be actually inside of the 23 Park? 24 A. I guess I would say, yeah, outside the 25 conservation area. 155 1 Q. Is there a borrow ditch or canal along 2 L-29? 3 A. The eastern portion of L-29. 4 Q. I'm sorry. Western portion of L-29? 5 A. Western portion of L-29 is defined in our 6 maps as on the conservation area side. There is a 7 road ditch on the north side and south side of 8 Tamiami Trail. Water goes across there. 9 Q. Well, is the Tamiami Trail in Water 10 Conservation Area 3A or in the Park? 11 A. Outside the conservation area. 12 Q. Proceeding along, then, what is west of 13 12A? 14 A. West of 12A you don't have to worry about 15 S-14. That's just blocks -- blocks of ditch there. 16 There's three water control culverts called 343A and 17 B and 344. They allow water to go from Conservation 18 Area 3A into Big Cypress Preserve which is 19 immediately on the west side of L-28. 20 Q. Are those owned and operated by the 21 District? 22 A. They're owned and operated by Corps of 23 Engineers. 24 Q. Are they manually operated by the District 25 on behalf of the Corps? 156 1 A. Yes. They're open when Conservation Area 2 3A is above regulation. 3 Q. Who measures flows through S-33? 4 A. District measures flows through S-33. 5 Q. Probably asked this, but what type of 6 structure was S-33, just a gated structure? 7 A. S-333? 8 Q. 333. I'm sorry. 9 A. It's a gated structure. 10 Q. Does anybody else measure the flows through 11 S-333? 12 A. I believe U.S.G.S. also measures that. 13 Q. Who measures the flows through S-12A, B, C 14 and D? 15 A. The Corps -- the U.S.G.S. measures that for 16 the Corps of Engineers. 17 Q. Anyone else? 18 A. We measure gate openings. 19 Q. Do you measure also, then, the water levels 20 on both sides? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is this the same method you use -- 23 A. We don't compute the flows there. We let 24 the U.S.G.S. do that. 25 Q. Who measures the flows through S-334 -- 157 1 excuse me. 2 A. 343A. 3 Q. Who measures the flows through S-343A, B 4 and 344? 5 A. To my knowledge nobody measures the flows 6 there. We can get rough estimates on how much goes 7 through it. Not a whole lot. 8 Q. Are they normally kept opened or closed? 9 A. Normally closed except when Conservation 10 Area 3A is above regulation then they're fully opened 11 except when there's problems with flooding in the 12 loop road area which is immediately south of Tamiami 13 Trail. 14 Q. Are they opened any time that there are 15 regulatory releases made through S-12A, B, C and D? 16 A. Yes. Except when there's flooding problems 17 along the loop road. 18 Q. Then does anyone measure what flow there is 19 through the gap there at the L-28 tieback? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Is there an exchange of flow there in one 22 direction or the other? 23 A. Flow there would normally be into the 24 conservation area. 25 Q. Had there been any research or study as to 158 1 what that flow is? 2 A. There was some early attempts at estimating 3 that flow. 4 Q. When you say early, when was that? 5 A. 1960s, 1970s. 6 Q. Anything more recent? 7 A. Not to my knowledge. There's not a lot of 8 interchange there. It's very difficult to make those 9 estimates also. 10 Q. That doesn't impact your water control -- 11 A. No. 12 Q. -- or operation of the system? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Proceeding, then, up to the L-28 north of 15 the gap, what are the structures along either ingress 16 or egress from Water Conservation 3A? 17 A. S-140 is a pump station that provides 18 drainage for the area west of L-28 primary to the 19 Indian reservation. Pumps into Conservation Area 3A. 20 Q. Who owns and controls that structure? 21 A. The District owns and operates that 22 structure. 23 Q. Who measures the flows at that structure? 24 A. The District measures of the flows; keeps 25 pumping records at that station and also estimates 159 1 flow from those pumping records. 2 Q. Similar to what you do for S-3, S-2 -- or 3 excuse me -- S-7, S-8? 4 A. That's true except the U.S.G.S. is not 5 involved in that. 6 Q. What is the C-60? 7 A. That's a get away channel for S-140. 8 Q. What? 9 A. What you call get away channel. If you 10 just pump straight into the conservation areas then 11 water would build up right immediately downstream 12 because it doesn't flow across the marsh easily. 13 They built all the channels so the water can get away 14 from S-140. 15 Q. Are there any additional structures up 16 above S-140 before we hit G-155? 17 A. There's a possibility of taking some water 18 from L-3 through G-89 into the L-28 borrow so it can 19 be pumped by S-140. That happens very, very rarely. 20 Q. But it would still have to go through 21 S-140? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That -- have we then covered essentially 24 all of the ingress and egress points into 3A? 25 A. Yes. 160 1 Q. Going back down to the Park, then, what are 2 S-346 and 347? And I'm looking at the L-67 3 extension. 4 A. They are structures that block the borrow 5 ditch for L-67 extension. 6 Q. What side of the L-67 is the borrow ditch 7 on? 8 A. The borrow ditch is on the west side of 9 that levee. 10 Q. Who owns and operates the S-346 and S-347? 11 A. The District owns S-346, 347. Nobody 12 operates them. 13 Q. Are they -- 14 A. They have been closed ever since they were 15 put there. 16 Q. Were they intended to be closed ever since 17 they were put in? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What is their purpose? 20 A. Their purpose is if for -- rather than 21 putting in a dirt plug, if we ever wanted to move 22 additional water down that canal, we could open those 23 structures theoretically and allow more water to go 24 down L-67 extension. As you're aware, the Everglades 25 National Park feels L-67 extension, the borrow ditch, 161 1 is unnecessary and they'd like to fill that in as 2 part of the modified delivery plan. 3 Q. Okay. Who asked for the L-67 extension? 4 Was that a Park request? 5 A. I'm not sure about that. The purpose -- 6 the major purpose for putting L-67 in was to allow 7 larger discharges through the S-12 structures. 8 Q. How will the L-67 extension allow greater 9 discharge through the 12 structures? 10 A. It allows -- once the water passes through 11 the 12 structures allows the water to move rapidly 12 south. It tends to pile up behind those structures 13 then with the amount of water that can go through the 14 S-12F. That borrow ditch isn't there. In the case 15 of L-67 extension the purpose for that levee was not 16 to hold water on the east side. It was to provide 17 conveyance for the water. It's really the ditch, 18 what they were looking for. 19 Q. Sort of the opposite of most, I gather? 20 A. What can I say? I didn't name those 21 things. 22 Q. All right. 23 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 24 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 25 Q. Do you know approximately how many 162 1 acre-feet of water were involved in this regulatory 2 release from Lake Okeechobee that occurred through 3 the EAA from approximately January through April-May? 4 A. It was on the order of 600,000 acre-feet. 5 Q. Now, you had stated that whether you take 6 that through the Miami, North New River, Hillsboro or 7 the West Palm, no matter how you route the water, 8 ultimately the water will end up in Conservation Area 9 3A in the bottom of Conservation Area 3A. 10 A. Uh huh. 11 Q. However, I assume, we're not talking about 12 the equivocal length 600,000 acre-feet? 13 A. There's probably some losses in that. You 14 have to realize 600,000 acre-feet is more water than 15 normally flows through the S-12 structures. 16 Q. In a year? 17 A. In a year. 18 Q. So -- but I mean there are losses as a 19 result of ET, where you siphon water off through the 20 Hillsboro Canal, North New River Canal -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. -- into the urban areas? 23 A. No. But there's -- Conservation Area 3A is 24 still above schedule and we haven't totaled all the 25 flow going through the S-12 structures yet. How much 163 1 of that actually made it down there -- 2 Q. Still remains to be seen? 3 A. -- still remains to be seen. It hasn't 4 been totaled up. All I can say is how much I took 5 out of Lake Okeechobee right now. 6 Q. Well, the only -- if I understand what 7 we've been talking about -- actually we better talk 8 about two other things before I make this conjecture. 9 What is the S-339 and S-340? What are 10 those structures? 11 A. S-339, S-340? 12 Q. (Indicates.) 13 A. Those are environmentally motivated 14 structures that were put in to prevent over draining 15 the north end of Conservation Area 3A. 16 Q. Are those often referred to as spreader 17 structures or spreader -- what do they do? 18 A. I haven't heard that term before. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. What it does is we hold water behind S-39, 21 force it out over the marsh rather than under normal 22 conditions. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Under water supply conditions we might -- 25 normally we'd open those so that we'd have a better 164 1 route down the Miami Canal over to the east coast. 2 Q. C-4 and the L-31 North? 3 A. Right. In recent years we've had them 4 closed. We were pumping S-8 and we had these -- I 5 was worried if we were pumping S-8 and had those 6 structures open it provided a very direct route for 7 the water to get down to the S-12 structures and we 8 might have water quality problems down S-12. So I 9 kept those closed and forced the water out over the 10 marsh during the time I was moving this water. 11 Q. Now you are talking about back to the 12 regulatory? 13 A. Yes. Also be easier to get away from the 14 S-8 structure to open those, to reduce my pumping 15 costs a little bit and pumping it down that. I 16 didn't to that. I chose to pump against that 17 additionally and force the water in that marsh. That 18 was the secondary purpose of those structures. 19 Original intent was to keep those closed when we had 20 dry conditions so we wouldn't over drain the water to 21 the conservation areas. 22 Q. Going back, then, to my question, the only 23 direct routes for water to get from Lake Okeechobee 24 to the urban areas, okay, would be -- for Miami -- 25 would be -- and by direct I'm saying through a canal 165 1 as opposed to going over a marsh -- would be through 2 the Miami Canal, through S-151 down the L-30 borrow 3 into L-31 North or through S-151 through S-32, is it, 4 into the Miami Canal? 5 A. Well, you wouldn't use S-32 in that route, 6 but you are correct in 1990 we delivered water by 7 means of that route. Rather then using the Miami 8 Canal, we used S-150 and -- 9 Q. Wait. It took me opposite? 10 A. North New River Canal used S-150 and 11 brought it down through L-38 West. 12 Q. Can you point out L-38 West? 13 A. I'll show you on the map. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. We brought water down through S-150. 16 Here's L-38 West. Down L-38 West and across L-38A 17 down to S-151 and then out this way, (indicating.) 18 Q. But that route still takes water across the 19 marsh, doesn't it? 20 A. Well, we used the -- when we were doing 21 that we used the fact that there's a borrow ditch 22 along the inside of this canal so we don't have an 23 awful lot of loss. It's -- 24 Q. Along the L-68A there's a borrow ditch? 25 A. Yes. 166 1 Q. Is that on the east or west side? 2 A. On the west side. We talked about that 3 before. 4 Q. All right. All right. So you just 5 essentially took it down the North New River through 6 the 11 structures? 7 A. No. 8 Q. No? 9 A. Through S-150 and then I took it on the 10 western side of S-11 structures. 11 Q. Oh. Okay. So there's a borrow ditch on 12 the west side of L-38 West? 13 A. Both sides. 14 Q. So you took it through S-150 down that 15 borrow ditch or canal? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Essentially past the 11 structures down 18 L-68A through S-151 and then either into the Miami 19 Canal or down to the L-31 North? 20 A. Right. And I also used the S-7 spillway 21 and put some into Conservation Area 2A at that time 22 and used S-11 structures to help out in that process. 23 Q. Now, when you put it through S-7 is there a 24 borrow canal along L-38 East? 25 A. Yes. 167 1 Q. Is that on the east or west side? 2 A. Conservation Area 2A side. 3 Q. So that's also relatively direct flow to 4 the 11 structures? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. How do you get water to the Fort Lauderdale 7 area? 8 A. Fort Lauderdale area we would use S-38 to 9 bring it into C-14. We use S-34 to bring it into the 10 North New River. Occasionally we'll siphon S-9 and 11 bring it into C-11 and we use -- that's essentially 12 the major routes. We can also use S-39A, S-30 and 13 use the conveyance capabilities of L-36 borrow to 14 bring it down from the Hillsboro Canal into the Fort 15 Lauderdale area. 16 Q. Okay. Is the Hillsboro Canal used for 17 water supply in that area? 18 A. Hillsboro Canal is used for water supply in 19 the northern part of Broward and southern part of 20 Palm Beach County. 21 Q. And essentially that's water coming from 22 Water Conservation Area 1, is that correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. What about the West Palm Beach area? 25 A. The West Palm Beach area water supply comes 168 1 down L-8 and -- 2 Q. That's outside on the east side of L-8? 3 A. Right. The L-8 borrow on the outside. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. And we also put water through S-5A East 6 into C-51. 7 Q. That's -- again, S-5A East takes water from 8 that L-8 borrow? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. We can supplement that from Conservation 12 Area 1 water through S-5AS if stages are proper. 13 Q. If I recall correctly, you don't -- there's 14 really not a feasible means given typical head 15 differentials of taking water through the L-10 and 16 bringing it to the C-51? 17 A. Normally that doesn't happen. 18 Q. So for Miami the Miami Canal itself, and 19 I'm talking about the C-123 portion, is actually not 20 the primary route for water supply to the Miami area? 21 A. In the past it has been. Since we didn't 22 want to use -- I didn't want to open S-339 and S-340 23 because of water quality considerations to the Park 24 when I was making releases through S-8. I used the 25 alternate route through S-150 and S-7. 169 1 Q. I just want to clarify. 2 A. In the past it has been. 3 Q. I wasn't right now really talking about 4 this regulatory release from January to April. 5 A. Also water supply. 6 Q. I was talking about water supply, for 7 instance, for the last three years you've been 8 operating. 9 Has the primary route, then, been along 10 this North New River Canal route which brings it 11 down, as we described, through S-151 or has it been 12 along the Miami Canal. 13 A. For the last three years it's been along 14 the North New River Canal. Prior to that time the 15 Miami Canal was the prior route. 16 Q. When were the S-339, S-340 put in? 17 A. I'm not sure. I think it was late 70s or 18 early 80s. 19 Q. There is a roughly triangular piece of what 20 must be water Conservation Area 3B that is just west 21 of L-33 and L-37 south of S-9 and north of the S-32. 22 Do you see what I'm referring to? 23 A. This area in here, that's part of 24 Conservation Area 3B. 25 Q. Are there structures that feed into that 170 1 area? 2 A. No. 3 You are talking about this area? 4 Q. I'm talking about what would be referred to -- 5 would be west of the L-33 and that portion of the 6 L-37 that's below the S-9 structure and is bordered 7 on the left side by the northeastern portion of 8 L-67C. 9 A. And north of C-304? 10 Q. Exactly. 11 A. There's no -- the only connection between 12 anything there, hydrologic connection is across 13 C-304. There's a canal. Essentially there's a line 14 there. That's just a canal that goes through the 15 middle of the marsh. There's no inlets or outlets on 16 the north side of that. 17 Q. Okay. 18 (Discussion held off the record.) 19 (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken.) 20 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 21 Q. Just to clarify a prior point, you had 22 mentioned that the regulatory releases from January 23 through April-May were in the area of 600,000 24 acre-feet? 25 A. Uh huh. 171 1 Q. And was that 600,000 acre-feet that you had 2 pumped or is that 600,000 acre-feet that came through 3 the 351, 352 and 354 structures? 4 A. I used the lake structures S-351, 352, 354 5 to come up with that approximate figure. 6 Q. Is there -- have you determined at all or 7 would you be able to give an estimate as to what then 8 the difference in the reinterpretation of the means 9 by which regulatory releases were to be made, what 10 impact that had? 11 Do you understand what I'm asking? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Well, there always were some releases made 14 through the EAA, essentially gravity releases 15 through, depending upon how large, how wide the gates 16 were open. There were always some releases through 17 the EAA. What impact did the reinterpretation that 18 you referred to earlier have which resulted in 19 600,000 acre-feet? What incremental difference was 20 there as a result of that? 21 A. We haven't computed that. 22 Q. But do you believe it will be substantial 23 or is the 600,000 close to what would have been 24 released through gravity? 25 MS. BIRCH: Object to form. 172 1 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, it's 2 substantial. 3 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 4 Q. Is someone from your department working on 5 computing that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Who is, do you know? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know who is working on I guess what 10 would be computing the amount to be charged to the 11 corporation -- to the Army Corps? 12 A. We haven't worked that out yet, what type 13 of computations are going to be used for that. We'll 14 get together with the Corps and discuss that prior to 15 sending them the bill. 16 Q. Since we discussed yesterday that there 17 really is no means of pumping water from Lake 18 Okeechobee into the EAA -- it was all gravity flow -- 19 A. Uh huh. 20 Q. -- how were you able to increase that 21 gravity flow after determining with the Corps that 22 regulatory discharges should take place south of the 23 lake as opposed to St. Lucie and Caloosahatchee to 24 the extent possible? 25 A. Well, if we hadn't pumped the south ends of 173 1 the agricultural canals then if we got much water out 2 of Lake Okeechobee, that would have flooded the 3 farmers in the EAA. 4 Q. With regard to the regulatory releases that 5 were made through the S-5A structure was any means 6 used to insure that that water essentially did not 7 penetrate the interior marsh? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Is there a means of pumping such that the 10 water would keep to the exterior in the borrow canals 11 and avoid penetration of the interior marsh? 12 A. No. Not at high conservation area stages. 13 When the stages in conservation areas are real low, 14 it's possible if you keep it all in the borrow stages -- 15 say the conservation areas -- canal stages are below 16 12 which doesn't happen very often, then at those 17 stages the marsh is pretty well isolated from the 18 ditch. 19 Q. It's all a function of what the water 20 levels are of Conservation Area 1? 21 A. Normally there's some interchange. You can 22 expect that. 23 Q. It -- if the lower Lake Okeechobee 24 regulatory schedule that the District has proposed is 25 adopted will that increase the likelihood of more 174 1 regulatory releases through the EAA? 2 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Calls for 3 speculation. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 5 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 6 Q. What factors would influence that? 7 A. Well, you would need some modeling to 8 determine that. 9 Q. What would you be modeling to determine 10 that? 11 A. Well, you'd have to model the inflows and 12 outflows from Lake Okeechobee and to do that you need 13 demands -- a demand structure also. 14 Q. Okay. Under the District's proposed new 15 regulatory scheduling, lowering the regulatory 16 schedule for Lake Okeechobee, will you be operating 17 the system differently such that the inflows will 18 change or where you will be shunting water from Lake 19 Okeechobee before it reaches that? 20 A. Will you repeat that? 21 Q. With regard to the District's Lake 22 Okeechobee regulation schedule, lower schedule, is it 23 the intent that you'll be operating the -- 24 essentially the portion of the project up above or 25 north of Lake Okeechobee in a different manner such 175 1 that you will be shunting water away from Lake 2 Okeechobee before it even reaches the lake? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So inflows will essentially stay the same? 5 Whatever they happen to be, it will not impact 6 inflows, is that correct? 7 A. The regulation -- the changes in the 8 regulation schedule won't impact inflows. Other 9 things may, but other than change in regulation 10 schedule. 11 Q. What other things would impact inflows? 12 A. Development; Kissimmee River restoration 13 influence, at least the timing and perhaps the 14 volume, to some extent. 15 Q. Has the Kissimmee River restoration, the 16 impact it will have on the water supply to Lake 17 Okeechobee, been studied by anyone? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. By whom? 20 A. Kissimmee River restoration people. 21 Q. The District people or -- 22 A. Corps of Engineers. 23 Q. Has anyone from the District studied it? 24 A. We had a consultant that studied some 25 aspects of that. 176 1 Q. Who was that? 2 A. Dr. Shen out of University of Southern 3 California I believe. 4 Q. What was his conclusions -- what were his 5 conclusions? 6 A. He studied some aspects of the Kissimmee 7 River restoration. He didn't study, if any, reduced 8 changes in inflow to Lake Okeechobee as a result of 9 that. He did some modeling -- hydrologic modeling 10 and hydrodynamic modeling on lake -- on the Kissimmee 11 River restoration. 12 Q. Have you seen what the Corps' results of 13 that study was? 14 A. No. I've heard confirmed reports that the 15 impact may not be too large but I don't have a 16 number. 17 Q. Other than the St. Lucie, the 18 Caloosahatchee and the EAA what are the other means 19 of regulatory releases from Lake Okeechobee? 20 A. Those, St. Lucie, Caloosahatchee and EAA 21 are the regulatory -- account for all the regulatory 22 capability of Lake Okeechobee. 23 Q. Had the District's proposed lower 24 regulatory schedule for Lake Okeechobee been adopted 25 five years ago, would it have resulted in greater 177 1 regulatory releases? 2 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Calls for 3 conjecture and speculation. 4 THE WITNESS: I said I couldn't answer that 5 without a model. You asked that one before. 6 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 7 Q. Well, have there been regulatory releases 8 in the past five years that you're aware? 9 A. Regulatory releases from Lake Okeechobee, 10 yes. 11 Q. As a matter of fact, I guess -- I believe 12 you said the only one you were involved with thus far 13 has been this one from January through April-May? 14 A. Uh huh. There was a small amount last 15 summer. 16 Q. And were those regulatory releases based 17 on, then, the existing Lake Okeechobee regulatory 18 schedule or on the proposed District one which is 19 lower? 20 A. We always work on the existing one. 21 Q. Well, would the lower one, then, the 22 District is proposing, would it have influenced the 23 amount that was released from January through April 24 of this year? 25 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Calls for 178 1 speculation. 2 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. 3 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 4 Q. Why not? 5 A. Because the water conditions weren't the 6 same. If we had started with lower water levels or 7 higher water levels it would influence that. 8 Q. Okay. How would you have started with 9 lower water levels? 10 A. How long has the regulation been in effect? 11 If you've got -- there's a lot of things to consider 12 there. 13 Q. Perhaps let me back up. 14 Is Lake Okeechobee, the lake itself -- 15 ignoring its inputs and outputs; I'm talking about 16 the lake as if you shut off everything coming in, 17 shut off everything coming out -- is it a net 18 producer or consumer of water? 19 A. More water comes out of Lake Okeechobee 20 than comes in. 21 Q. That's not exactly what I was asking. Did 22 you understand what I was asking? 23 A. No. I thought that's what you were asking. 24 Q. Maybe it was, but I don't understand the 25 answer. 179 1 A. You are talking about surface water inflows 2 coming in plus rainfall. 3 Q. Right. 4 What I was saying -- 5 A. We normally take out and the water doesn't 6 go away. So there's at least the amount of water we 7 take out comes back to the previous level. Following 8 that line of reasoning, there's -- 9 Q. Rainfall is greater than ET? 10 A. Rainfall plus the amount of water coming in 11 is greater than ET. 12 Q. Okay. I guess my question was: Really is 13 rainfall itself greater than ET? 14 A. Most parts of registered rainfall is 15 greater than ET. 16 Q. What about on Lake Okeechobee? 17 A. I haven't -- I haven't done -- I'm not up 18 to date on the water budget for Lake Okeechobee. I 19 suggest to get -- 20 Q. What's your understanding of that? 21 A. -- an expert witness. 22 Like I said, there's -- normally, there's 23 water available. You can figure there's water 24 available in Lake Okeechobee. We take water out of 25 Lake Okeechobee and use it for water supply and it 180 1 doesn't dry up the lake, right? 2 Q. You tell me. 3 A. It doesn't. If you want an answer, it 4 doesn't dry out the lake. How much water you can 5 take out is a different question. 6 Q. Okay. What other factors than that 7 influence regulatory releases? 8 A. How high the water level is. 9 Q. If it's just merely a question of how high 10 the water level is, then why do you need to model it 11 if you're talking about lowering the level of 12 regulation schedule to determine whether that would 13 increase your regulatory releases? 14 A. Well, I'm -- you know, I'm not a modeler, 15 but if you start from a lower lake level and go 16 through an identically shaped regulation schedule 17 you're working under, why would it change the inflows 18 and outflows? 19 Q. How do you get down to that lower lake 20 level? 21 A. Well, first time you implement the 22 schedule, you take it down half a foot so you lose a 23 half a foot forever until you raise it back up again. 24 That's the simplified way of looking at it. It is 25 more complex than that. 181 1 Q. But, in other words, that is a possibility 2 that it will result in a one time lowering but will 3 have no other influence upon regulatory releases? 4 A. It is more complicated than that. Because 5 you've got a nonlinear stage storage relationship in 6 the lake and since you've got a large literal zone it 7 could affect evapotranspiration in the lake also. 8 I'm not prepared to give you an answer on that. 9 That's why you need somebody else. 10 Q. Now I know some of the factors. All right. 11 Did the regulatory releases made from 12 January through April-May increase the risk of 13 flooding in the EAA? 14 A. Because of the additional monitoring, 15 because of the monitoring capabilities we had there 16 we felt that the risk of the EAA was minimal. It was 17 acceptable. 18 Q. It raised the risk but within acceptable 19 limits? 20 A. Well -- 21 MS. BIRCH: Object to form. 22 THE WITNESS: It's within acceptable 23 limits. Before we had the monitoring that we 24 had now, the risk of flooding was higher, so we 25 lowered the risk of flooding because we have 182 1 better monitoring. 2 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 3 Q. What new monitoring did you put in? 4 A. Well, we have a microwave telemetry system 5 that allows us to watch 24 hours a day what the water 6 levels are at S-8 at all the major structures and at 7 intermediate points on the ag area canals. 8 Q. Do you also monitor the rainfall in the EAA 9 or no? 10 A. We don't monitor the rainfall but we do -- 11 Q. I might have said monitor. I'll repeat the 12 question then. 13 Do you monitor the rainfall in the EAA? 14 A. Yes, we do. 15 Q. How do you do that? 16 A. Also through our microwave telemetry system 17 so we get a real tight estimate of rainfall. 18 Q. How many rain stations do you have within 19 the EAA? 20 A. We've got one at each of the major 21 structures and several intermediate points. So half 22 a dozen I would guess more or less. 23 Q. Has the District put any new rain monitors 24 in within the last year? 25 A. No. 183 1 Q. Does it have any plans to do so? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When will that be occurring? 4 A. I'm not sure when but there's some new 5 rainfall that will probably be associated with the 6 ENR Project and if the STA concept is realized we'll 7 probably need additional monitoring too. Some of the 8 additional monitoring will likely be rainfall. 9 Q. How will the STAs impact your operation of 10 the system? 11 A. That's difficult to say because I am not 12 sure what the configuration is going to be yet. 13 Q. Have you looked at any of the 14 configurations already? 15 A. Before I analyze the effects on the system 16 I would like a more solid definition of what the 17 objectives are and where they are and all are going 18 to be. 19 Q. Have you ever viewed the prior WMAs, Water 20 Management Areas, that were contemplated by the prior 21 drafts of the SWIM Plan? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Going back to my prior question, which I'm 24 not sure if you quite understood what I was asking. 25 I might not have phrased it correctly. 184 1 That is have you studied at all or looked 2 at at all at this point in time what impact the STAs 3 would have upon your operation of the system? 4 MS. BIRCH: Object to relevancy and form. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 7 Q. Has anyone from your department considered 8 what impact the STAs would have on operation of this 9 system? 10 A. Not in specific terms. Of course, it's 11 going to make it more difficult; going to make it 12 more complicated, put some additional controls on 13 there, but further than that, not really. 14 Q. I'm not looking for specific terms. I was 15 just looking to see whether that was considered by 16 anyone in the Operations Department and exactly what 17 additional operational steps would that entail by the 18 STAs? 19 MS. BIRCH: Same objection to relevancy and 20 form and outside the expertise of the 21 designation of Mr. Mierau. 22 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. 23 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 24 Q. You don't know if anyone has considered 25 that in your department? 185 1 A. In my division or in my department? 2 Q. I'm sorry. Division. I used the wrong 3 term. 4 A. No one in my division has analyzed that. 5 Q. I'm not asking for analysis. I'm asking 6 has anyone discussed or even considered, gosh, will 7 the STAs have any impact upon the operation of the 8 system? 9 MS. BIRCH: Object to form. 10 THE WITNESS: As I stated previously, we've 11 had some discussion that say most likely that's 12 going to be more complex, but we can't say how 13 yet until we get a more definitive answer on 14 what the configuration is going to be. 15 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 16 Q. Why would the STAs make it more complex? 17 A. If you place additional criteria on when 18 and where you can move water it's going to make 19 moving that water more complex. 20 Q. Who at the District is responsible for 21 essentially considering impacts of water supply as a 22 result of SWIM Plan programs? 23 MS. BIRCH: Read that question back, April. 24 (Thereupon, a portion of the record 25 was read by the reporter.) 186 1 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Outside the 2 designation of the expertise of Mr. Mierau and 3 object to form. 4 THE WITNESS: No one in my division is 5 doing that. 6 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 7 Q. I wasn't asking that. I was asking who at 8 the District is looking at the water supply impacts 9 of the SWIM programs, do you know? 10 A. I would presume someone in the Planning 11 Department. 12 Q. And that would be -- Planning Department 13 has a number of divisions, is that right? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Do you have any idea what division that 16 would be? 17 A. I rather not speculate. 18 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm 19 asking to the best of your knowledge. 20 A. I said the Planning Department to the best 21 of my knowledge. 22 Q. Who's in charge of the Planning Department? 23 A. Jack Dempsey. 24 Q. Do you know who at the District typically 25 looks at water supply issues? 187 1 MS. BIRCH: Object to form. 2 THE WITNESS: Planning Department. 3 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 4 Q. Any particular division? 5 A. I -- before I mentioned Sharon Trost is a 6 possible person that may be up to speed on our water 7 planning -- our water supply planning. 8 Q. In Water Conservation Area 1 is ET or 9 rainfall greater on an annual or average basis? 10 A. I think I mentioned previously that in most 11 cases within the District rainfall is greater than 12 ET. 13 Q. So in -- 14 A. But I don't have any specific indication 15 that the conservation area would be any different. 16 Q. But in your operation of the system and 17 operation of the water conservation areas for water 18 supply, you work on the assumption that the water 19 conservation areas themselves will generate water for 20 water supply, is that correct? 21 A. That's not necessarily a requirement. 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. I work with the water levels and the 24 demands at the time we're making releases. It's not 25 necessary for me to determine where the water is 188 1 coming from. 2 Q. Okay. Well, looking at a different matter, 3 when you're making releases or providing for water 4 supply for the lower east coast or the Park, how far 5 back do you have to move? 6 A. We take it from the closest source I can. 7 Q. Even if it drops that area below its 8 regulation schedule? 9 A. Well, normally, if you've got high water 10 supply demands your Lake Okeechobee and conservation 11 areas are going to be below their regulation 12 schedule. Regulation schedule defines the maximum 13 desirable water levels, not normal or minimum water 14 supply levels. 15 Q. Are there normally, not during a drought 16 period, just during a normal operation of the system, 17 does the -- do east coast urban areas get water from 18 the water conservation areas or is that only during a 19 drought? 20 A. Usually get some. 21 Q. And in that instance do you just look to 22 the closest source? 23 A. Correct. Yeah. The closest source 24 that's -- has water. If we've got some restrictions 25 for environmental reasons or whatever, or if for some 189 1 other reasons, we'll maintain -- for example, we've 2 got what we call a floor level in Conservation Area 3 1. We've agreed not to take water out of 4 Conservation Area 1 when the stage in Conservation 5 Area 1 is below 11 without bringing in water to 6 makeup for that. 7 Q. And why is that floor there? 8 A. To -- I believe it's to help for 9 environmental considerations. 10 Q. Is there a floor in 2A or 3A? 11 A. There's a floor elevation in 3A, which I am 12 not so sure is based on environmental considerations. 13 The main complaints that I've seen when we fell down 14 to those low levels is the Indians that use the 15 southern area have some problems with those low water 16 levels. They've had a boating accident, that sort of 17 thing. 18 Q. I guess my questions are leading toward I'm 19 trying to understand how you operate the system and 20 is it just that, you know, oh, Miami needs water so 21 I'll just take from here and then a week later, you 22 know, 2A needs water; I'll take it from here or is it 23 actually more? If I'm taking water here I have to 24 plan ahead and consider what's happening up in Lake 25 Okeechobee and start opening more than just this one 190 1 valve but planning for water over a period of time? 2 Or is it just literally we focus on one particular 3 area and turn whatever valve we can? 4 A. Normally, if -- we'll say Miami needs 5 water. We'll take it out Conservation Area 3 first. 6 First of all, it's closest and Conservation Area 3 7 also is a less efficient storage area than Lake 8 Okeechobee is. 9 Q. Okay. So -- 10 A. So, essentially, the rule of thumb you take 11 it from the closest place is usually a pretty good 12 rule. 13 Q. Then do you have to makeup that water or 14 just take it where it happens to be? 15 A. Normally you take it until you need some 16 other type; need to meet some kind of limitation 17 where you need to bring water in to makeup for that 18 water that you're taking out. You have to realize 19 that if we're going to take -- supply water to Miami; 20 take it out of a conservation area, whether it's out 21 of Conservation 3A, regardless of whether you bring 22 it in -- make it up with water from Lake Okeechobee. 23 Q. Why -- 24 A. Got to come through 3A. It's the only way 25 to get there. 191 1 Q. I understand that. I guess my question is: 2 Is it just merely a reactionary system where you -- 3 just wherever water is needed you turn it on where 4 you can, given whatever restrictions, but you don't 5 attempt to plan on bringing water here at particular 6 times and making sure it's available and not at other 7 times reducing it? Is it just merely if water 8 happened to be there, turn the crank; if it's not, 9 find it from another place? 10 A. The general rule of thumb you take it from 11 the closest place, you know, is valid. When you 12 start to run out of water, you know, when water gets 13 low in the pot you look for other places to get it 14 from. Common sense. 15 Q. I understand that. Can you just, for 16 instance -- 17 A. We don't wait until Conservation Area 3 is 18 dry before we start looking other places. 19 Q. Maybe I'm just not asking the right 20 question. I'm trying to understand how you operate 21 the system. I anticipated or envisioned it was 22 something other than, well, we need water, we'll turn 23 a crank at the closest place and if it's not there, 24 we'll find the next closest place and turn the crank. 25 I somehow anticipated that there was some plan that 192 1 went on. 2 A. At home, you go to the kitchen sink and 3 turn on a faucet. Do you think about whether it's 4 coming from Lake Okeechobee or what? 5 Q. Let me ask you about the water regulation 6 schedules. Who sets those? 7 MS. BIRCH: Asked and answered. 8 THE WITNESS: I said that before. 9 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 10 Q. It's the Corps for all the conservation 11 areas? 12 A. The Corps establishes regulation schedule 13 for the conservation area and Lake Okeechobee and 14 upper chain lakes. 15 Q. Does the District have any input on that 16 water regulation schedule? 17 A. Certainly. 18 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Asked and answered. 19 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 20 Q. Do you participate in that? 21 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Asked and answered. 22 MR. KOBELINSKI: You can keep that up. 23 MS. BIRCH: So can you. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 193 1 Q. Have you ever had input on the water 2 regulation schedule for Water Conservation Area 2A? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever had input on the regulation 5 schedule for Water Conservation Area 1? 6 A. No. 7 Q. What water regulation schedules have you 8 had input on? 9 A. We've had some discussion about the 10 regulation schedule on Lake Okeechobee. 11 Q. Okay. Any others? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And what was your view on the water 14 regulation schedule of Lake Okeechobee? 15 A. I was there as an observer and not as an 16 active participant and we went to talk to the Corps 17 of Engineers as a result of the Board requesting us 18 to look for alternative schedules for Lake Okeechobee 19 which would be more environmentally attractive. 20 Q. When you say the Board asked you or asked 21 us are you referring to your particular division? 22 A. Staff. Our particular department, 23 Operations and Maintenance Department. 24 Q. You are just a division within that 25 department? 194 1 A. I'm a division within that department. 2 Q. Did your division participate in that? 3 A. As I said, I went along as a participant. 4 Q. What considerations were there then that 5 the District was considering for the release schedule 6 for Lake Okeechobee? 7 A. We tried to get the Corps to hurry up the 8 process. It's a long, complicated, drawn out 9 process. 10 Q. As I understand what you are telling me, 11 the Board asked the Operations and Management 12 Department -- 13 A. Maintenance Department. 14 Q. Maintenance, excuse me. 15 -- Maintenance Department to consider 16 options for the water regulation schedule of Lake 17 Okeechobee. 18 A. They requested the Corps to study, to look 19 more at environmentally attractive regulation 20 schedules for Lake Okeechobee. 21 Q. Was the department involved in proposing a 22 schedule? 23 A. There was -- Run 25B was adopted by the 24 Board last year as an interim action and that was one 25 of the proposals that we wanted the Corps to evaluate 195 1 on a more long term basis. We got it effective on an 2 interim basis. Associated with that analysis we 3 asked the Corps also to test the lower schedule. 4 Q. Did your department -- 5 A. As I said yesterday, the Corps also wanted 6 to test some higher schedules. 7 Q. Was your department involved in developing 8 Run 25? 9 A. No. My division was not. 10 Q. Was your department involved? 11 A. I can't speak for the department. 12 Q. That's -- 13 A. They may have made some suggestions. I -- 14 you know, I wasn't involved in that. 15 Q. That's what I'm trying to find out. 16 Perhaps I misunderstood what you said earlier, which 17 was the Board asked your department, not division, to 18 study other water regulation schedules for Lake 19 Okeechobee for more environmentally sound purposes. 20 A. No. To ask the Corps to do that. 21 Q. But, in that process, you also were 22 requesting the Corps to consider the lower ones. 23 My question is: Who at the District was 24 making a determination that a lower one would be more 25 economically valid or sound? 196 1 A. We didn't do that. We asked -- as I 2 stated, many times, we asked the Corps to evaluate 3 these schedules. We didn't ask the Corps to go to a 4 lower schedule or higher schedule. We asked them to 5 evaluate the effects of lower and higher schedules. 6 Q. No one at the District considered what the 7 effects would be prior to asking the Corps to do so? 8 A. I'm sure there are people that have 9 opinions, but I'm not aware of any specifics in that 10 regard. 11 Q. Okay. So -- but you are not aware of any 12 particular study or division or department that has 13 been asked to study on the District's side what we 14 think would be best? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. There was -- several years ago there was 18 some modeling runs done on a wide variety of 19 regulation schedule scenarios and this Run 25, which 20 we adopted on a temporary basis, was one of those. 21 Q. Okay. When you say you're referring to 22 adopting Run 25, since you don't set the regulation 23 schedule for Lake Okeechobee, how can you adopt a 24 run? What does Run 25 do? 25 MS. BIRCH: Asked and answered. 197 1 THE WITNESS: It was somewhat lower -- what 2 it did was it provided for pulse releases for 3 Lake Okeechobee at somewhat lower levels than 4 our previous regulation schedule called for. 5 That was motivated to protect the estuaries from 6 large damaging discharges. 7 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 8 Q. I understand what the purpose was. I guess 9 that -- you were allowed to do that within the set 10 regulation schedule? 11 A. We asked the Corps of Engineers to do that 12 on a temporary basis because it wasn't felt to be a 13 large deviation from current schedules so they could 14 do that without a large environmental impact 15 statement; could do that rather rapidly in what they 16 in their process called a statement of going back. 17 Q. So, again as I understand it now, this Run 18 25 was adopted by the Board, but also with the 19 consent of or the agreement of the Corps? 20 A. Exactly. We can't do that unilaterally. 21 Q. Okay. Is the District considering 22 alternative criteria for operating the canals within 23 the EAA? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Has soil subsidence within the EAA 198 1 impacted the criteria for operating the canal levels 2 for protection as to flooding and water supply? 3 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Lack of foundation. 4 THE WITNESS: Will you repeat that? 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Sure. 6 Ask you to read it back. 7 (Thereupon, a portion of the record 8 was read by the reporter.) 9 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Outside of the 10 expertise of Mr. Mierau. 11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could you read back the 12 question? I believe counsel didn't hear it. 13 Read it a third time. 14 MS. BIRCH: I heard the question. He 15 hasn't given any expert opinion or been asked to 16 give an expert opinion as to soil subsidence. 17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Read it back, please. 18 (Thereupon, a portion of the record 19 was read by the reporter.) 20 MS. BIRCH: I don't have a problem with the 21 last part of the question. The first part I 22 still do. 23 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 24 Q. Do you understand the question? 25 A. I'm -- I don't understand what the 199 1 objection is. 2 Q. Neither do I. 3 Go ahead and respond to the question. 4 MS. BIRCH: If you understand the question 5 you can answer it. 6 THE WITNESS: I understand there's been 7 some soil subsidence, though I'm not an expert 8 on soil subsidence and that necessitates more 9 careful control of water levels in the EAA and 10 to that extent it affects how we pump those 11 canals somewhat. 12 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 13 Q. Who sets the -- 14 A. In terms of the criteria changing, there 15 hasn't been a formal change in criteria that I'm 16 aware of. 17 Q. Who sets -- 18 A. Certainly not since I've been in charge of 19 the division. 20 Q. Who sets the criteria for the canals within 21 the EAA? 22 A. The Corps of Engineers set the original 23 criteria for the water levels in the EAA and the 24 water levels the pumps were designed to pump in, 25 that's a function of designing the system. 200 1 Q. Okay. Do these criteria also entail when 2 pumping will occur? 3 A. It doesn't specify exactly the water levels 4 that you have to turn on the pumps at. It does say 5 you can't pump water levels below certain levels but 6 otherwise it could be dangerous to the pumps. 7 Q. Is the District, then, considering changing 8 those criteria or asking the Corps to change the 9 criteria so that takes into account any soil 10 subsidence in the EAA? 11 A. We have asked -- as a part of the IAP plan, 12 Interim Action Plan, we've asked that we be able to 13 change that criteria slightly so that we don't cause 14 damaging water levels at the upper end of the north 15 end of the EAA canals, particularly S-2 and S-3. 16 Q. And where does that stand at this point, do 17 you know? 18 A. There's been no ruling on that. 19 Q. Do you know when the request was made? 20 A. Probably 1990. Something like that. 21 Q. Is that something your division or 22 department are working on? 23 A. I was involved in making that request; 24 drafting that request. 25 Q. Has there been a response as yet to that? 201 1 A. No. 2 Q. Will the implementation of the -- are you 3 familiar with the BMPs under the EAA Rule and 4 referred to in the SWIM Plan? 5 MS. BIRCH: Objection. Outside of the 6 designation of the expertise of Mr. Mierau. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm not familiar in detail 8 with BMPs. Only what I read in the papers. 9 BY MR. KOBELINSKI: 10 Q. I'm not asking for detail. Are you 11 familiar with the pumping practices wherein it's 12 estimated there would be a 20 percent reduction in 13 water supply? 14 A. As I understand it, in general, there's -- 15 they're trying to limit, to use less pumping; both 16 less irrigation withdrawals and less pumping by 17 holding water a little longer. 18 Q. Will that holding of more water on the farm 19 land or in the farm land, will that impact the 20 operation of the system at all? 21 A. Initially I objected to that practice on 22 the grounds that it would cause more pumping at S-2 23 and S-3. 24 Q. When did you make that objection? 25 A. When the agricultural interests asked for -- 202 1 were asking for a permit to do that for that process. 2 I believe that was last year o