1

1 Division of Administrative Hearings

2 Department of Administration, State of Florida

3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )

of FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and, )

4 WEDGEWORTH FARMS, INC., )

Petitioners, )

5 V ) DOAH

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) Case 92-3038

6 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

of Florida; et al., )

7 Respondents. )

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; )

8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )

and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )

9 Petitioners, )

V ) DOAH

10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) Case 92-3039

DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

11 of Florida; et al., )

Respondents. )

12 FLORIDA FRUIT and VEGETABLE )

ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )

13 W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )

and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

14 Petitioners, )

V ) DOAH

15 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) Case 92-3040

DISTRICT, an agency of the State )

16 of Florida; et al., )

Respondents. )

VOLUME I

18 Deposition of Ronald Mierau

19 Taken before April Y. Sapp, Court Reporter

and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at

20 large, pursuant to notice of taking deposition filed

by the Petitioners in the above cause.

21 - - -

Wednesday June 23, 1993

22 319 Clematis Street, 5th Floor

West Palm Beach, Florida 33401

23 1:13 - 4:25 p.m.

- - -

1 APPEARANCES:

On behalf of the Petitioners Florida Sugar

3 Cane League, Inc., United State Sugar Corp.,

and New South Hope, Inc.:

4 Peeples, Earl & Blank, P.A.

One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636

5 Two South Biscayne Boulevard

Miami, Florida 33131

6 By: MARK T. KOBELINSKI, ESQUIRE

7 On behalf of the Respondent SFWMD:

South Florida Water Management District

8 3301 Gun Club Road

West Palm Beach, Florida 33406

9 By: JACQUELYN WATERS BIRCH, ESQUIRE

10 On behalf of the Intervenor United States of America:

Assistant U.S. Attorney

11 Department of Justice

155 South Miami Avenue, Suite 600

12 Miami, Florida 33130-1693

By: MAUREEN DONLAN, ESQUIRE

14 - - -

1 - - -

2 I N D E X

3 - - -

5 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

6 Ronald Mierau

BY MR. KOBELINSKI 4

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 - - -

3 Thereupon,

4 Ronald Mierau,

5 being by the undersigned Notary Public first duly

6 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

7 THE WITNESS: I so affirm.

8 DIRECT (Ronald Mierau)

9 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you state your

11 name, please and address.

12 A. Ronald Mierau and I currently reside at

13 xxxxxxxxxxxxxx My name -- my last

14 name is spelled M-i-e-r-a-u. It was spelled wrong on

15 the notice. I almost didn't come.

16 (Discussion held off the record.)

17 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

18 Q. Mr. Mierau, have you ever been deposed

19 before?

20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. As you're probably aware a deposition is a

22 means by which parties to litigation and, in this

23 case, administrative proceedings have opportunities

24 to ask questions of individuals under oath to find

25 out what facts or, in your case, expert opinions they

1 may have that relate to the issues in the case.

2 I will be asking you questions throughout

3 today and perhaps tomorrow. I'd like you to answer

4 them truthfully as you are under oath.

5 Also, if at any time you don't understand a

6 question, please simply state so or if you don't know

7 or don't remember an answer to a question I don't

8 know and I don't remember would be the accurate

9 answers. If you feel compelled to speculate

10 or are assuming facts simply state so just to keep

11 the record straight. All right?

12 A. (Nods.)

13 Q. For the court reporter's benefit, we all

14 have a tendency to either nod or say uh huh. It

15 always has to be yes or no or a somewhat articulated

16 response.

17 Mr. Mierau, are you aware that you have

18 been designated as an expert witness in this action?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. And as -- on behalf of the South Florida

21 Water Management District?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'll be referring to them as the District

24 from hereafter.

25 Could you tell me -- or let me start

1 differently.

2 Reading from the expert witness designation

3 of the District it states that the subject matter of

4 your expected testimony is quote, operation of the

5 Central and Southern Florida flood control system.

6 And is that a correct assessment of your

7 expert testimony?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Are there any additional areas that you

10 anticipate testifying about?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Before we get into your expert testimony,

13 if you could just very briefly go through your

14 background and in that regard --

15 (Discussion held off the record.)

16 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

17 Q. Mr. Mierau, if you could, briefly take me

18 from college forward in education.

19 A. Okay. I had -- I got my bachelor's from

20 the University of Florida in civil engineering in

21 1966. I spent five years in Viet Nam after that time

22 working in water resources projects. I came back to

23 the United States in 1971 and spent 1971 through 1973

24 at Colorado State University getting a master's

25 degree in water resource engineering.

1 Q. Do you have any additional degrees, sir?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And I perhaps don't know the correct term

4 for it, but I believe there's some sort of licensing

5 or certification here in Florida for engineers, is

6 that correct?

7 A. I have a professional engineer license in

8 the State of Colorado and the State of Florida.

9 Q. From 1973 forward, again, perhaps in

10 summary fashion, if you could just take me through

11 your work experience, please.

12 A. I came to work in 1973 with the District as

13 we're referring to it.

14 Q. That was summary enough.

15 A. I came to work as, I believe, it was a

16 civil engineer. I believe it was civil engineer

17 water resources. I kind of forget. It was entry

18 level position. I progressed through the engineering

19 status and became involved in management. Gosh, that

20 was -- I forget what year that was. I'll have to

21 look that up. It's been five or six years. In 1970

22 I assumed my current role as a Director of Operations

23 Division.

24 Q. That was in what, sir?

25 A. 1970 -- 1980. I'm sorry. 1990.

1 Q. I better cut you off or otherwise --

2 A. 2000.

3 Q. That was next.

4 A. It's 1990. It's been three years.

5 Q. That was Director of Operations?

6 A. That's correct. Director of Operations

7 Division. That's within the Operations and

8 Maintenance Department.

9 Q. I assume prior to 1990 you were already

10 involved in management, is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were you always in the Operations Division

13 or were you in the Operations Division prior to 1990?

14 A. No. When -- my first managerial position

15 was in Data Management Division. I also spent a

16 short time as acting Director of our Water Quality

17 Division.

18 Q. That was for less than a year, is that

19 correct, sir?

20 A. About a year.

21 Q. Okay. And subsequent to that?

22 A. Subsequent to that time I had my current

23 position.

24 Q. What exactly are the duties of a Director

25 of Operations at the District?

1 A. I like to tell people I open the gates when

2 it rains.

3 Q. Who closes them?

4 A. I also close them.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. And turn on the pumps. Actually, I don't

7 do that physically. I issue orders to do that.

8 Q. Approximately how many people are employed

9 or are under you in the Operations Division?

10 A. I've got 14 people.

11 Q. And who is your superiors?

12 A. I report to Joe Schweigart is Department

13 Director for Operations and Maintenance and his

14 assistant Alan Hall.

15 Q. Could you spell Schweigart to make sure I

16 have take that correct?

17 A. S-c-h-w-e-i-g-a-r-t.

18 Q. What was Mr. Hall's first name?

19 A. Alan.

20 Q. Do Mr. Hall or Mr. Schweigart participate

21 in the decisions, as you put it, of opening and

22 closing the gates and, you know, turning on and off

23 the pumps?

24 A. They have delegated that authority to

25 myself. Occasionally, you know, if they happen to be

1 there, they'll add their opinions.

2 Q. Okay. Have you reached final opinions with

3 regard to your expert testimony in these Everglades

4 SWIM proceedings?

5 A. This is the first proceeding I've testified

6 in.

7 Q. I meant have you reached final opinions

8 that you intend to testify to at the final hearing?

9 A. I don't have any agenda in this regard. I

10 answer questions.

11 Q. Okay. Do you know what your testimony will

12 be at the final hearing?

13 A. I presume it will relate to the operation

14 of water control facilities within the District.

15 Q. Are there any specific aspects of the

16 operation of the Water Management District's

17 facilities that you'll be testifying to?

18 A. If whatever they ask me relates to the

19 Everglades project I'll be willing to answer.

20 Q. Have you already discussed with them what

21 your testimony will be?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Have you participated at all in the

24 drafting of or in the development of the SWIM Plan

25 that is the subject matter of the current

1 administrative proceedings?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Has anyone in your division or department

4 done so?

5 A. Not in my division. I can't speak for

6 department.

7 Q. Very briefly refresh my recollection as to

8 how the division, department all of that breaks out.

9 A. Divisions are under the department.

10 Q. What's over the departments?

11 A. Executive Office.

12 Q. Okay. So it goes department, division and

13 then is there anything underneath that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Mr. Schweigart, then, was the head of the

16 department?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Did you participate at all in the

19 settlement of the federal lawsuit against the state

20 with regard to water quality? Are you familiar with

21 that lawsuit?

22 A. I read about it in the papers.

23 Q. Did you participate at all in that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you --

1 A. I take that back. I made some -- I think I

2 was a witness in regard to data management or

3 something in those regards.

4 Q. Other than that did you participate in the

5 settlement agreements or anything like that?

6 A. (Shakes head.)

7 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)

8 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

9 Q. Mr. Mierau, what I'd like to do -- and I

10 know you probably could have done this without a map

11 but for the rest of us -- I'd like to go through with

12 you the various means --

13 A. I like to use a map too.

14 Q. I don't see a point in making -- this is

15 dated September 1985.

16 MS. BIRCH: It's the same.

17 MR. KOBELINSKI: I don't see the point

18 making this an exhibit but I think it will be

19 useful for all of us to be looking at this and

20 let the record reflect that we're looking at

21 their map.

22 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

23 Q. I'd like to go through how water moves into

24 and out of the Everglades Agricultural Area which

25 I'll refer to as the EAA.

1 Are you familiar with the EAA?

2 A. Yes.

3 Maybe we ought to say exactly what I'm

4 referring to in referring to the EAA.

5 Q. That's fine.

6 A. That's the area bounded by L-8, Lake

7 Okeechobee works its way down to the L-1 and down

8 conservation areas and back up to L-8.

9 Do you follow that?

10 Q. Back up to where?

11 A. Back up to L-8. I started here at this

12 point, L-8 and conservation area, up along L-8 around

13 the southern boundary of Lake Okeechobee, down to L-1

14 and then around the conservation area.

15 Q. Sounds fine. And that will do for our

16 purposes of this area of questioning.

17 I will take a stab at saying that it

18 probably would be easiest if we started from Lake

19 Okeechobee or from the north end and move down. If

20 you think there's a better way to do it, I am open to

21 suggestions.

22 A. Whatever you like.

23 Q. How does water from Lake Okeechobee move

24 from Lake Okeechobee into the EAA if it does at all?

25 A. Water from Lake Okeechobee, there's a

1 structure starting on the west side along the south

2 shore of Lake Okeechobee. There's a structure that's

3 labeled S-3 and HG-3. There's two of them side by

4 side on the Miami Canal. The HG-3 is no longer in

5 existence. There's -- that's been replaced by a

6 structure that's called S-354.

7 Q. And does the S-354 structure differ from

8 the HG-3, the prior HG-3?

9 A. The HG-3 structure was designed as a

10 navigation lock and it was later modified so it only

11 had one pair of what we call mitering gates which

12 open out towards Lake Okeechobee. They come together

13 and two leads come out and they close like this,

14 (indicating.) The new structure is vertical lift

15 gates. That's more efficient and easier to operate.

16 Q. Is that --

17 A. Doesn't allow navigation. Navigation

18 hasn't been common there for many years.

19 Q. The S-354 gate, is that electronically or

20 remotely operated or is that manually?

21 A. Not at the current time. We monitor the

22 situation. We don't operate it remotely.

23 Q. So, any openings or closings, it would be

24 done by sending someone to the gate itself?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. All right.

2 A. That particular structure remains under the

3 jurisdiction of the Corps of Engineers.

4 Q. And when you say that structure, are you

5 still referring to S-354?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Okay. What about S-3?

8 A. S-3 is a pump station.

9 Q. And under whose jurisdiction?

10 A. That's -- we operate that pump station and

11 that pumps from Miami Canal into Lake Okeechobee so

12 that doesn't relate directly to your question. Your

13 question was how you get water out of Lake

14 Okeechobee.

15 Q. Well, before we move on, we can go back and

16 forth, but it might be easier just at every structure

17 to follow up with a few questions.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. You mentioned that S-354 is under the

20 jurisdiction of Army Corps of Engineers which I'll

21 refer to as just the Corps.

22 Does the Corps itself operate it or do you

23 operate it on their behalf?

24 A. We operate it on their behalf for

25 regulation of Lake Okeechobee.

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. There is another purpose for that and

3 that's to supply irrigation water to the EAA,

4 Everglades Agricultural Area. In that case they have

5 delegated that responsibility to us for that purpose.

6 Q. Now, the when you said that's under the

7 jurisdiction of the Corps, are you referring the

8 structure itself is owned by the Corps?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Okay. With regard to S-3, which is a pump

11 station, who owns that structure?

12 A. I believe we own that structure.

13 Q. You mean the District?

14 A. I mean the District.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. And we also maintain that structure.

17 Q. Now, the pump, the S-3 pump station, does

18 that pump work in both directions; i.e., can it pump

19 water in either direction or just pump water in one

20 particular direction?

21 A. As I stated it pumps water from the Miami

22 Canal to Lake Okeechobee.

23 Q. There's no way to operate the pump in

24 reverse, then, pump water from Lake Okeechobee into

25 the Miami Canal?

1 A. Not pump it.

2 Q. Okay. Is there a means of leaving the S-3

3 pump open or allowing water just to flow through the

4 S-3 structure without pumping?

5 A. There's a procedure that's known as

6 siphoning that we can make water flow from Lake

7 Okeechobee into the Miami Canal. You have to prime

8 the pump first and then some water can go by gravity

9 from Lake Okeechobee to the Miami Canal if the water

10 levels are appropriate. We used that procedure

11 during the time we were replacing HG-3 with the new

12 structure for irrigation purposes.

13 Q. Would there have to be a proper head

14 differential between Lake Okeechobee and the EAA to

15 allow for siphoning?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. As I understand S-354 is just a gravity

18 structure.

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. In other words, you open the gate and,

21 depending upon where the water is higher, it will

22 flow one direction or the other, is that correct?

23 A. That's correct. Normally, it would flow

24 from Lake Okeechobee into the Miami Canal.

25 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any instance where

1 the flow went the other way by gravity, in other

2 words, from the EAA into the Miami Canal into Lake

3 Okeechobee?

4 A. From that -- I'm not sure that that

5 structure was complete at the time, but one of the

6 gravity flow structures at that location has on

7 occasion run from the Miami Canal to Lake Okeechobee.

8 Q. Okay. And that -- when you're saying the

9 gravity flow structure, you are referring to HG-3 or

10 current S-354?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. I believe you probably mentioned it, but

13 approximately when was HG-3 replaced by S-354?

14 A. I believe it was about 1990. Fairly

15 recent.

16 Q. Given the current configuration of S-3 and

17 S-354 -- and I'm drawing your attention now to the --

18 using the S-3 structure to siphon water from Lake

19 Okeechobee into the EAA -- would there ever have been

20 a time where the S-354 gravity flow, the head

21 differential between the Miami Canal and Lake

22 Okeechobee was such that you would not be able to

23 have a gravity flow from Lake Okeechobee into the

24 Miami Canal, however, you could siphon water from

25 Lake Okeechobee into the Miami Canal using S-3?

1 A. Highly unlikely. There would have to be

2 something wrong with S-354. S-354 is a much more

3 efficient means for taking water from Lake Okeechobee

4 down then siphoning.

5 Q. So, in other words, S-354 is set up such if

6 the head differential between Lake Okeechobee and the

7 Miami Canal is such that you can siphon, you can

8 automatically gravity flow water through S-354?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. If the gate will open.

12 Q. Right.

13 Assuming it is operating?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Moving, then, perhaps east of S-354, what

16 would be the next means by which water enters into

17 the EAA?

18 A. That would be S-351 on your map. That's

19 again the replacement for HG-4.

20 Q. HG stands for hurricane gate, is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. There's some other maps that refer to

23 that as HGS-4, but this map says HG-4.

24 Q. What would HGS stand for?

25 A. Hurricane gate structure.

1 Q. All right. Was HG-4 replaced by S-351

2 approximately also in 1990?

3 A. That occurred prior to that. About a year

4 prior, I believe.

5 Q. Okay. About 1989?

6 A. I'm not sure of the exact date, but

7 somewhere around there.

8 Q. S-351 is the same as S-354 as far as size

9 of gate and the main means by which it operates?

10 A. S-351 is a larger structure; has three

11 gates instead of two.

12 Q. And S-351 services the flow from Lake

13 Okeechobee through -- S-351 services what canals?

14 A. The Hillsboro and North New River canals.

15 On these maps they're designated as L-14, L-15, L-20,

16 L-19 and L-18.

17 Q. Okay. As long as we're at that geographic

18 location, S-2, how does that compare with S-3 as far

19 as structure?

20 A. S-2 is a pump station which corresponds and

21 functions very similar to what S-3 does. S-2 serves

22 the Hillsboro/North New River basins rather than

23 Miami.

24 Q. Is it a larger pump station than S-3?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Does the District own and operate S-2?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And S-351, who owns that structure?

4 A. The Corps owns that structure.

5 Q. Okay. And do you operate it on behalf of

6 the Corps?

7 A. For irrigation drainage purposes, again

8 they have delegated -- for irrigation purposes they

9 have delegated that function to Water Management

10 District. For flood control purposes or rather

11 regulation of Lake Okeechobee, they still maintain

12 primary control. In that case we operate it at their

13 instructions.

14 Q. Keeping our movement eastward -- unless

15 there's any additional structures we need to discuss

16 right in that immediate geographic area --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- eastward and at this point we seem to be

19 moving also northward, what would be the next

20 structure?

21 A. The next structure on this map is HG-5.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. We currently refer to that -- that's also

24 been replaced by a structure we call S-352.

25 Q. And when was that replaced by S-352, sir?

1 A. That was prior to S-351, but I'm not sure

2 of the year.

3 Q. Sometime prior to 1989, then?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You mentioned that the next structure on

6 this map was HG-5. Are there any additional

7 structures that are not identified on this map that

8 allow the flow of water from Lake Okeechobee into the

9 EAA?

10 A. There's several lake culverts, culverts

11 through the levee that serve primarily as irrigation

12 for local interests adjacent to the lake.

13 Q. Approximately how many of those culverts,

14 sir?

15 A. I'm not sure how many there are that

16 function in that range. Perhaps a half dozen.

17 Q. Who owns and operates those or who owns

18 those culverts?

19 A. The Corps owns those culverts. They also

20 operate those culverts.

21 Q. Are there pumps -- any type of pumping

22 structures that work with regard to these culverts

23 that you're mentioning?

24 A. There's some local farm pumps that utilize

25 that as a way to get the water through the levee.

1 There's no pumps that pump directly over the top of

2 the levee and those culverts are the only means by

3 which local farm pumps that pump directly to the lake

4 have access to the lake.

5 Q. Okay. Now, the pumps in the culverts you

6 mentioned in between S-2 -- excuse me -- S-351 and

7 S-352, those only allow for pumping from the EAA into

8 Lake Okeechobee?

9 A. They allow for that. There's also there's

10 no pumps that work the other way. There is some

11 gravity flow, though, from Lake Okeechobee into that

12 area.

13 Q. Would that gravity flow be through

14 siphoning similar to what we discussed with S-3 or is

15 that just through the culverts themselves?

16 A. Normally that would be through the

17 culverts.

18 Q. Okay. The pumps that you refer to, those

19 are owned by the farming interests?

20 A. By farming interests, correct.

21 Q. Any other structures, then, along the lake

22 that allow water to flow from Lake Okeechobee into

23 the EAA?

24 A. That -- at the terminus of L-8 at Lake

25 Okeechobee there's one of those culverts, the largest

1 of those culverts and that's referred to as culvert

2 10A. Connects Lake Okeechobee with a borrow ditch

3 from L-8.

4 Q. Is that just a gravity flow structure?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Is that similar in nature where you have a

7 gate that literally slides up and down?

8 A. One of them slides up and down. Two more

9 have a flap gate.

10 Q. There are three, then, gates at the culvert

11 10A?

12 A. Uh huh. That also belongs to the Corps of

13 Engineers. We don't operate that structure.

14 Q. Is there a pump associated or anywhere in

15 the vicinity of culvert 10A?

16 A. There's some pumps that pump into L-8 and

17 that would -- that would -- water would normally go

18 to Lake Okeechobee providing the stages were proper

19 at least.

20 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the last.

21 A. Provided Lake Okeechobee wasn't too high,

22 the water would go from L-8 to Lake Okeechobee after

23 the local farm pumps pumped it into L-8.

24 Q. Who owns those pumps?

25 A. Local farming interests.

1 Q. Are these pumps you're referring to that

2 merely pump into L-8 or are they pumps that actually

3 pump through the levee?

4 A. No. There's no pumps that pump through the

5 levee except S-2, S-3 within the EAA.

6 Q. Have we then reached the northern terminus

7 or northeastern terminus of the EAA at least where it

8 borders Lake Okeechobee?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Are there any other means by which water

11 from Lake Okeechobee enters the EAA that we have not

12 discussed?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Perhaps I should qualify that or it might

15 not make a difference.

16 Are there any other means through

17 structures -- via structures that water enters the

18 EAA from Lake Okeechobee?

19 A. There are no other structures.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. There may be a little bit of seepage that

22 comes through there.

23 Q. Does seepage go both ways?

24 A. Normally, Lake Okeechobee is higher than

25 the land elevation in the EAA, so seepage would go

1 downhill from Lake Okeechobee to the EAA.

2 Q. Okay. You had stated, if I recall

3 correctly, there may be a little bit of seepage. Is

4 there any -- have there ever been any studies or

5 research to determine the amount of seepage, if any,

6 from Lake Okeechobee to the EAA?

7 A. Yes. There's been several studies done

8 and --

9 Q. Any done by the District?

10 A. There was a study done early by the -- I'm

11 not sure what year that was -- that was done by the

12 U.S.G.S. in cooperation with the District. The Corps

13 of Engineers has done some independent studies. Some

14 of these studies were done over a period of time and

15 the results of those studies indicate that seepage

16 across into the EAA has decreased over time. It may

17 no longer be very relevant.

18 Q. When was the U.S.G.S. and District joint

19 study, approximately?

20 A. About 20 years ago. I think there was

21 another one in the late 50s but I'm not positive

22 exactly of the time scale there.

23 Q. Would that be another one by the District

24 and U.S.G.S. in late 50s?

25 A. No. That one was done by the Corps of

1 Engineers.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. The -- most of this stuff -- most of these

4 studies are summarized in survey review report, a

5 report that the Corps of Engineers has in draft form.

6 I think it's Seepage Through -- or Lake Okeechobee

7 Levee Study or something like that. I forget the

8 exact name of it. It refers to seepage through that

9 levee and possible piping problems in the levee

10 region that we're referring to.

11 Q. Do you recall approximately when this draft

12 report was released or prepared?

13 A. It's currently under review.

14 Q. Were there any recent studies done in

15 conjunction with this draft report?

16 A. No. That draft report is proposing some

17 additional studies.

18 Q. Oh. What are the factors that would affect

19 seepage through the levee from Lake Okeechobee to the

20 EAA?

21 A. It would have to do with the soil

22 conditions in the levee, immediately under the levee

23 and water levels on both sides.

24 Q. Soil conditions. I assume you are dealing

25 with some sort of density as to allowing water to

1 pass through?

2 A. In layman's terms, yeah.

3 Q. That's the best I'm going to go, so --

4 Has -- you had mentioned earlier soil

5 subsidence in the EAA and not in relation to this

6 question. Would soil subsidence in the EAA over time

7 affect seepage at all?

8 A. In -- not directly but it could have some

9 effect because as the soil subsides, generally you

10 are going to need lower water level or you'll have to

11 control the water levels lower in order to make

12 agriculture feasible and thus lowering the water

13 levels inside the EAA would have some difference in

14 the -- what we call the hydraulic head across the

15 levee. In other words, Lake Okeechobee, the water

16 level in Lake Okeechobee in reference to the water

17 levels controlled in the EAA may be somewhat larger,

18 presuming that the water levels in Lake Okeechobee

19 would be constant.

20 Q. Does the District intend to participate or

21 has it been invited to participate at all in the

22 Corps' study that's contemplated with regard to this

23 draft report we were discussing?

24 A. Not to my knowledge.

25 Q. Do you know who, if anyone at the Corps, is

1 involved with that?

2 A. I'm not sure who the project manager is.

3 Q. Do you know anyone else who's involved with

4 it or what department would be?

5 A. That's the Corps of -- geotechnical people

6 are taking the lead on it.

7 Q. Is that -- are they looking at the entire

8 Herbert Hoover Dike all the way around Lake

9 Okeechobee or just to a particular section of it, do

10 you know?

11 A. The entire Herbert Hoover Dike.

12 Q. Any other portions or just the dike itself?

13 A. That particular -- that report references

14 primarily the dike and makes some secondary reference

15 to the culverts through that dike.

16 Q. All right. Where we left off was at

17 culvert 10A which would be approximately the north --

18 northern or northeastern terminus of where the EAA or

19 L-8 reaches Lake Okeechobee. If I'm correct, that is

20 the farthest point where you have water exchange

21 between Lake Okeechobee and the EAA, is that correct?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. And then moving down, I guess heading south

24 or southeast on levee 8, if you could again take me

25 to the next place where you will have a water

1 interchange, be it out of or into the EAA.

2 A. Well, there's several pumps. There's what

3 we referred to as a borrow ditch on the outside of

4 the L-8. It's to the north and east of the L-8

5 levee.

6 Q. Is that outside the EAA?

7 A. As we define the EAA that borrow ditch

8 would be outside of the EAA.

9 Q. That's to the north and east of levee 8?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Immediately adjacent to levee 8.

13 Q. Have you ever read the SWIM Plan?

14 A. No.

15 Q. If you would give me a minute, I'd like to

16 see if definitions of the EAA that we're using is the

17 same as that used in the SWIM Plan.

18 A. Feel free.

19 (Discussion held off the record.)

20 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

21 Q. Using again the L-8, then, as the boundary

22 of the EAA, you were referring a few moments ago to a

23 borrow ditch that is to the north and east of L-8.

24 That would then be outside of the EAA?

25 A. By our definition, right.

1 Q. And you had mentioned that in response to a

2 question regarding means by which water either enters

3 or exits the EAA.

4 How does this borrow ditch result in either

5 an entrance or egress of water from the EAA?

6 A. There's some farm pumps that pump water

7 from inside from the EAA into that borrow ditch on

8 the outside through L-8 proper.

9 Q. I assume, though, through culverts or how

10 is that done?

11 A. I believe at least in one instance those

12 are through direct connection. I think some of those

13 may be through culverts. I'm not exactly sure what

14 the designation of the -- whether those are project

15 culverts or whether those are local farm culverts.

16 Q. L-8 is actually a levee, is that right?

17 A. The way we're defining it L-8 is a levee.

18 Q. It's a mound or dike?

19 A. Big pile of dirt.

20 Q. Big pile of dirt that stretches off to the

21 horizon?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I mean we have a choice here of piping it

24 through the levee which would remain in the pipe or

25 something buried in the levee or over the levee?

1 A. It doesn't go over the levee. It goes

2 through the levee. The question is whether the pumps

3 pump through with a pipe through the levee or whether

4 they pump into a project culvert to get into the

5 levee and I think the second case is proper.

6 Q. This borrow ditch -- which I assume you are

7 calling it a ditch as opposed to a canal for a reason --

8 where does it go or where does it empty out?

9 A. It connects through culvert 10A to Lake

10 Okeechobee and it goes into the -- what I'll refer to

11 as the S-5A complex, just north of Conservation Area

12 1.

13 Q. So this borrow ditch stretches essentially

14 the entire length of L-8?

15 A. It stretches the entire length of L-8.

16 Q. And it is referred to as a borrow ditch or

17 could be referred to a canal. Literally it was

18 formed by taking the dirt there to create the levee.

19 Is that essentially the theory?

20 A. That's exactly correct.

21 Q. You had mentioned the agricultural

22 interests pump through that L-8 levee into the borrow

23 ditch. Are there any District or Corps pumps that

24 are operated through that L-8 levee?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Anything other than private pumps?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Following down L-8 --

4 Before I do that, do you recall

5 approximately how many pumps?

6 A. I don't know how many pumps there are.

7 Q. Following down L-8, then, what would be the

8 next structure other than these farm pumps which

9 would result in either an entrance or egress of water

10 from the EAA?

11 A. Following down that path from L-8 borrow we

12 get to S-5A complex. There's several structures

13 associated with that complex. There's a confluence

14 of several canals and conservation areas there at

15 that complex.

16 Q. Backing up for one moment, with regard to

17 the borrow canal along L-8 and pumps pumping from EAA

18 into that borrow canal, is there any flow from that

19 borrow canal into the EAA or is it just out of the

20 EAA into the borrow canal?

21 A. I believe there's some irrigation

22 withdrawals from that borrow canal also.

23 Q. So it goes both directions?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Might as well do the S-5A

1 complex now.

2 What are the different structures involved

3 in the confluence of the various canals there?

4 A. Okay. The -- facing south from the L-8

5 borrow canal on your left you have a culvert that's

6 called S-5A East.

7 Q. Facing -- or left would mean to the east,

8 is that right?

9 A. To the east, right.

10 Q. What is 5AE or East?

11 A. There's two culverts at S-5A East that

12 connect the L-8 borrow to C-51 or West Palm Beach

13 Canal.

14 Q. Okay. Those are just gravity culverts

15 or --

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Are they gated or just open culverts?

18 A. No. They're gated culverts.

19 Q. Who owns and operates those culverts?

20 A. We own and operate those culverts. We the

21 District.

22 Q. Okay. Next aspect of that complex?

23 A. On the south end of that complex is S-5AS.

24 That connects the L-8 borrow to Conservation Area 1.

25 Q. What type of structure is that?

1 A. That's a gated spillway structure.

2 Q. Just one gate or --

3 A. Two gates.

4 Q. You had stated gated spillway structure. I

5 think perhaps this might be the first time you used

6 the term, "spillway." Is that somehow different than

7 a gravity structure?

8 A. Different than a culvert structure.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. The culvert structure we had at S-5A East

11 is totally enclosed by some sort of a conduit.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. And the spillway structure is essentially

14 open on the top and just has a gate that goes down to

15 the bottom of the canal and you can lift the gate up

16 to make water go.

17 Q. Similar, then, to perhaps the S-351 and

18 others?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Except there you lift those up as opposed

21 to lowering them down, is that right?

22 A. Very similar to the S-351 and S-354.

23 Q. All right. There's no pump associated with

24 S-5AS?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. There's no pump associated with S-5AE?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And I believe you had mentioned that S-5AS

4 is owned and operated by the District?

5 A. I don't know if I mentioned that but that

6 is true.

7 Q. All right. What is the next component?

8 A. On the west side of that complex is S-5A

9 West.

10 Q. And what is that structure, sir?

11 A. S-5A West is very similar to S-5A East.

12 It's two gated culverts that connect L-8 borrow with

13 L-13 or L-12 or L-7.

14 Q. Excuse me?

15 A. There's three canals that come together

16 there and I'm not sure right now exactly what the

17 numerical designation for that piece is. If you look

18 on the map there's L-13, L-7 extension and L-12 all

19 come together at that point.

20 Q. Well, would water flowing from the L-8

21 borrow or through the gated culverts, would that

22 water essentially be able to move into the L-12, L-13

23 or L-7?

24 A. That's correct. It could if the water

25 levels were appropriate.

1 Q. Were appropriate. All right.

2 Now, L-7 is actually a levee, is that

3 correct?

4 A. L-7 is a levee, right.

5 Q. There's a canal associated with L-7 or a

6 borrow ditch?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. That's what we're talking about, that --

10 that reach where those three canals come together and

11 tie into that complex is right there.

12 Q. Okay. On which side of the levee is the

13 borrow ditch?

14 A. North side of the levee.

15 Q. So it would be on the EAA side of the

16 levee?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And that would be all the way along down

19 L-7 to the S-6 structure?

20 A. I would rather refer to that a little bit

21 differently.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. We don't operate it like that. The borrow

24 ditch for L-7 proper as it interfaces between the EAA

25 and the conservation area proper is on the

1 conservation area side, not on the EAA side.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Just here on the north piece where we call

4 it L-7 extension it's on the EAA side.

5 Q. Just so I understand water passing from the

6 L-8 borrow ditch through S-5A West would stay within

7 the EAA, would not go into -- unless it went through,

8 for instance, another structure -- the water

9 conservation area, is that correct?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Okay. Is that -- are those all the

12 structures in the S-5A complex?

13 A. No. There's one more.

14 Q. All right. Which?

15 A. That's the primary one.

16 Q. Can't miss that.

17 A. The primary one is S-5A. S-5A is the big

18 pump station.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. S-5A is a big pump station immediately west

21 of S-5A West.

22 Q. Immediately what of S-5A West? I didn't

23 here that. Immediately south?

24 A. Immediately west.

25 Q. Oh. Immediately west. Okay.

1 A. It pumps from the EAA into Conservation

2 Area 1.

3 Q. Okay. And it pumps from the EAA. From

4 what source would that be getting water?

5 A. Primary source of water is from L-10, L-12.

6 Q. Does that have --

7 A. Some water also comes in from L-13.

8 Q. Does L-10, L-12 have another name?

9 A. Sometimes it's called the West Palm Beach

10 Canal.

11 Q. It also -- some water also comes through

12 the S-5A through the cross canal or L-13 canal?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Any other sources?

15 A. That's all.

16 Q. Now the S-5A you referred to as a pump

17 station. Is that structure set up to allow pumping

18 in either direction?

19 A. No. It pumps only into the conservation

20 area, Conservation Area 1, I guess.

21 Q. Can you use the same type of a siphoning

22 technique that we were referring to when we discussed

23 S-3 to siphon water from WCA-1 into the EAA?

24 A. To my knowledge that's never occurred.

25 Q. Are there means of gaining water from WCA-1

1 into the EAA?

2 A. The primary means of getting water from

3 Conservation Area 1 into the EAA would be through

4 S-5AS into the L-8 borrow and then into -- through

5 S-5A West into the EAA.

6 MS. BIRCH: Would you read that back,

7 April? Maybe the question was: What are the

8 primary means?

9 (Thereupon, a portion of the record

10 was read by the reporter.)

11 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

12 Q. That's right, right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Okay. Now, for water to flow from WCA-1 or

15 Water Conservation Area 1 through S-5AS into the L-8

16 borrow you would need a higher head or higher water

17 level in the water conservation area than in the

18 borrow canal, is that corrects?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And, likewise, for it to flow from the L-8

21 borrow through S-5A West into the EAA, you would

22 again need a higher water level in the borrow canal

23 than in the EAA?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. How often is water then transferred from

1 Water Conservation Area 1 into the EAA using that

2 means?

3 A. It's been done on occasion. Not real

4 often.

5 Q. Do you recall the last time it was done?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Has it been done since you've become

8 Director of Operations?

9 A. I'm not sure. It's not a primary route.

10 We've taken water through S-5A West into the EAA, but

11 I believe most of that water originated in the L-8

12 area. Wasn't coming from the conservation area at

13 that time.

14 Q. You had -- in response to my question on

15 how to get water from WCA-1 into the EAA, you had

16 stated the primary means -- again this is what we

17 just discussed -- taking water through S-5AS into L-8

18 borrow and then through S-5AW into the EAA. Is there

19 another means that we haven't discussed? Because you

20 had said primary that's the only reason I'm asking.

21 A. Seepage.

22 Q. Okay. Seepage would be then through the

23 L-7 canal?

24 A. Yes. Also the possibility of siphoning

25 through S-6.

1 Q. We haven't gotten down to S-6?

2 A. No. But that's possible.

3 Q. Got you.

4 How does water get from the EAA into the

5 C-51 or West Palm Beach Canal?

6 A. West Palm Beach Canal you are referring to

7 C-51?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. You asked me about L-10 and L-12 and I also

10 identified that as sometimes being called the West

11 Palm Beach Canal.

12 Q. Right. Okay. Well, how would -- if you

13 take water in the EAA, be it from the cross canal or

14 whatever area, how would it get into the West Palm

15 Beach Canal.

16 A. Oh. Okay. From there --

17 Q. Let me withdraw that question.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. I just want you -- L-10 and L-12 is often

20 referred to as the West Palm Beach Canal, is that

21 correct?

22 A. Locally referred to as the West Palm Beach

23 Canal.

24 Q. As is C-51?

25 A. As is C-51.

1 Q. However the two of them are not free

2 flowing, there is a structure dividing L-12 from

3 C-51, is that correct?

4 A. There's two structures.

5 Q. All right. What structures divide L-12

6 from C-51?

7 A. S-5A West and S-5A East.

8 Q. Which we've already discussed?

9 A. We've discussed.

10 Q. So to get water from the EAA, be it from

11 L-12 or elsewhere into the C-51, what are the various

12 means of doing so?

13 A. You could open S-5A West and S-5A East if

14 the water levels in L-8 borrow -- water levels

15 between those three water bodies were proper, you

16 could flow water in that direction.

17 Q. Okay. Based upon prior discussions, you

18 could also presumably pump water from the EAA through

19 the L-8 levee into the L-8 borrow canal and then let

20 it flow through S-5AE, is that correct?

21 A. You could pump water from the EAA through

22 S-5A East or through S-5A, then let it flow back

23 through S-5A South and then S-5A East.

24 Q. Is that -- what's the normal way of getting

25 water from the EAA into the C-51 Canal?

1 A. That's a very rare occasion that we do

2 that. It doesn't happen often.

3 Q. All right. Where does the C-51 Canal get

4 its water?

5 A. We get irrigation water -- for C-51 I

6 presume you're talking about?

7 Q. Right.

8 A. Normally, you take irrigation water from

9 C-51 either from the L-8 borrow --

10 Q. Uh huh.

11 A. -- if the water levels are high there or

12 you take it from Conservation Area 1 through S-5A

13 South and S-5A West and bring it down to C-51.

14 MR. KOBELINSKI: Read that back, please.

15 (Thereupon, a portion of the record

16 was read by the reporter.)

17 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

18 Q. Why don't you start over?

19 A. Scratch that one.

20 MS. BIRCH: Read the question back. Let's

21 take a minute to think about it.

22 MR. KOBELINSKI: That sounds fine.

23 THE WITNESS: C-51 -- we could take

24 irrigation water for C-51 from L-8 through S-5A

25 East. We can also get irrigation water for C-51

1 from Conservation Area 1 through S-5AS and S-5A

2 East.

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Read that second half

4 back.

5 (Thereupon, a portion of the record

6 was read by the reporter.)

7 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

8 Q. Does that complete all the structures

9 located at the S-5A complex?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And moving down along the L-7

12 levee is there any water interchange between the EAA

13 and the Water Conservation Area 1?

14 A. There was a temporary pump established that

15 pumped water from Conservation Area 1 into ENR --

16 what we call the ENR Project.

17 Q. Is that pump already in operation?

18 A. That pump was in operation. It's been

19 discontinued now. We have a new set of pumps that

20 will be used to control water in the ENR area.

21 Q. All right. Where would those pumps be

22 getting their water?

23 A. There's -- there's a canal from L-13.

24 Well, from that area where L-13, L-12 and L-7

25 extension join together down to the north part of the

1 ENR which runs parallel to L-7 on the EAA side. At

2 the southern terminus of that canal there's a pump

3 station that pumps into the ENR and we haven't

4 started using that yet but we will.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. The ENR was designed to clean up nutrients

7 in the water that's being diverted away from S-5A and

8 there's another pump station at the southern terminus

9 of the ENR that can pump the water back into

10 Conservation Area 1 or can pump; not back into.

11 Q. No longer back into because that was a

12 temporary pump.

13 Has that pump been used as yet?

14 A. Not yet. Just for test purposes.

15 Q. What about seepage in L-7?

16 A. There's seepage from -- there is seepage

17 through L-7. Normally that would go from Water

18 Conservation Area 1 into the EAA. Of course on the

19 northern edge of L-7 that's now intercepted by ENR

20 and the conveyance canal down to the ENR.

21 Q. Have there been any studies to determine

22 what that seepage would be or historically what it

23 was?

24 A. Historically there were some studies done

25 on that. I don't recall what the figures were.

1 Q. Do you recall who did the studies?

2 A. Corps of Engineers did the studies.

3 Q. Do you recall approximately when?

4 A. It was a long time ago. I'm guessing it

5 was 1950s sometime.

6 Q. Has the District ever studied that?

7 A. I think there were some additional seepage

8 studies done in association with the ENR, but I

9 haven't reviewed those. Quantitatively speaking,

10 seepage is fairly high through L-7.

11 Q. After the structure at the southern

12 terminus of the ENR Project are there any structures

13 prior to S-6?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What is, then, if you would go on to

16 describe the S-6 structure?

17 A. S-6 is a pump station that pumps from the

18 ENR into Conservation Area 1. Not from the ENR. For

19 the EAA. I'm sorry.

20 Q. Is that solely a pump station and no other

21 associated structures?

22 A. Just the pump station.

23 Q. Does that pump work in only one direction

24 or both directions?

25 A. It pumps from the EAA into Water

1 Conservation Area 1. On occasion we have used

2 siphoning at that structure to take water from

3 Conservation Area 1 into L-15.

4 Q. How often?

5 A. Infrequent.

6 Q. Approximately how many times since 1990

7 when you became Director of Operations?

8 A. I believe we did it last year. Possibly in

9 1991 also.

10 Q. When you say you did it last year, was that

11 a continuous operation or just for a period of time?

12 A. Just for a short period of time.

13 Q. Approximately how long?

14 A. Several days.

15 Q. Moving then along L-6, are there any

16 structures between S-6 and S-7?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Is there seepage of any sort in the L-6

19 levee?

20 A. Possibly seepage across L-6 levee, yeah.

21 We don't normally think of that as pronounced as it

22 is across L-7. One of the reasons is the water

23 levels in Conservation Area 2A are lower.

24 Q. Would seepage generally flow from 2A into

25 EAA or EAA out of -- into 2A through L-6

1 seepage-wise?

2 A. Normally from 2A into the conservation area

3 or into the EAA. I'm sorry.

4 Q. Do you recall whether there have been any

5 studies with regard to that seepage?

6 A. Not to my knowledge.

7 Q. Coming up then to S-7, what type of

8 structure is that?

9 A. S-7 is a pump station that pumps from the

10 EAA into Conservation Area 2A. There's also a

11 spillway associated with S-7 to allow gravity flow

12 under proper conditions.

13 Q. A spillway to allow gravity flow from

14 where?

15 A. From the EAA into Conservation Area 2A

16 primarily.

17 Q. Is that --

18 A. On rare occasions it's been used for

19 irrigation withdrawals from Conservation Area 2A into

20 the EAA.

21 Q. Does that spillway have a structure name?

22 A. S-7 spillway.

23 Q. Is the S-7 spillway, that's just a simple

24 gated structure?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. And is it used primarily to move water from

2 the EAA into WCA-2A or from 2A into the EAA?

3 A. Primarily from the EAA into 2A.

4 Q. But you said on occasion it is used in the

5 opposite direction?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Given the fact that there's a spillway, the

8 S-7 spillway, there is a head differential at that

9 location. Is the S-7 location normally higher in the

10 L-18 canal than it is in the conservation area, the

11 water in the L-18 canal?

12 A. Normally, there's not a lot of difference.

13 There is times. As I say, normally when we have that

14 spillway opened, it's -- water level is higher in

15 L-18.

16 Q. But there's no, for instance, S-6 spillway?

17 A. There's no spillway at S-6.

18 Q. Why not? Is there a difference between the

19 two?

20 A. I didn't design it. I'm sorry.

21 Q. Okay. Moving then westward of S-7, any

22 additional structures in that vicinity?

23 A. There's S-150 which is a gated culvert

24 structure which normally would take water from the

25 EAA into Conservation Area 3A. Notice this goes into

1 3A instead of 2A.

2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Read that back, please.

3 (Thereupon, a portion of the record

4 was read by the reporter.)

5 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

6 Q. Is that also used to take water from 3A

7 back into the EAA?

8 A. To my knowledge we've never operated it for

9 that purpose.

10 Q. I have to go back for a moment.

11 S-6, who owns and operates that?

12 A. The District operates S-6.

13 Q. And who owns it?

14 A. The District also owns it.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Now, on occasion, it's possible that the

17 Corps of Engineers may ask us to operate S-6 for our

18 regulation of water levels in Lake Okeechobee. That

19 also holds true for S-5A, S-7 and S-8.

20 Q. Who owns and operates S-7?

21 A. The District operates and owns S-7.

22 Q. And the S-7 spillway?

23 A. And the S-7 spillway, yes.

24 Q. Who owns and operates S-150?

25 A. The District owns and operates S-150.

1 Q. Perhaps -- I'll ask this, but am I correct

2 in my understanding that it is your department and

3 the people under you and under your command that are

4 operating essentially all of the structures we've

5 been discussing?

6 A. That's correct except for the culverts on

7 Lake Okeechobee which we said the Corps operates.

8 Q. You send your men to do the manual

9 operation, but the operation of the structures are

10 given by the Corps? I thought you said even with the

11 S -- let me go back in my notes for a moment.

12 My understanding with regard to S-352,

13 S-351 and S-354 the Corps owns and operates them but

14 actually it is your people who are going and

15 literally manually operating these structures?

16 A. That's correct. In addition to that,

17 there's miscellaneous culverts that we spoke of that

18 go through the levee and in between there the Corps

19 operates -- physically goes out and changes those

20 gates also.

21 Q. Okay. I had forgotten those. Sorry.

22 Moving then west of S-150, are there any

23 structures between the S-150 and the S-8 pump

24 station?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What would those be?

2 A. There's a project we call the Holey Land

3 that's nestled in between L-5 and L-23.

4 Q. All right.

5 A. Associated with that there's three culverts

6 that go from the Holey Land through L-5 into

7 Conservation Area 3A.

8 Q. Are those gated culverts?

9 A. They are culverts with flashboard risers.

10 Q. Anything other than those three culverts

11 prior to arriving at S-8?

12 A. There's a small seepage pump station in the

13 seepage ditch external to the Holey Land and that

14 pumps water from that seepage ditch, returns it back

15 into the Holey Land and from there the water may come

16 in through those culverts that we just spoke of that

17 connect the Holey Land to Conservation Area 3A.

18 Q. But that water would not go into 3A, rather

19 it would be going back into the Holey Land which may

20 or may not make its way into the culverts, is that

21 correct?

22 A. That's correct. It's pretty close to the

23 south end. That's the reason I brought it up.

24 Q. Moving along, then, is there anything else

25 between S-150 and S-8?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Arriving at S-8, that is a pump station?

3 A. It is a pump station and spillway at S-8.

4 Q. And that must be called the S-8 spillway,

5 is that correct?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. The pump station pumps water from the EAA

8 into WCA-3A?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Is that one directional pump again only in

11 that direction from the EAA into 3A?

12 A. That's right. From EAA into Conservation

13 Area 3A.

14 Q. Does the District use siphoning to take

15 water from 3A through S-8 into the EAA?

16 A. That's very unusual since the spillway

17 structure is there. It's inadvertently happened once

18 to my knowledge.

19 Q. When was that, during your tenure? Just

20 kidding.

21 The spillway, which direction was water

22 primarily flowing through the spillway?

23 A. Normally the water would come from L-23

24 into the EAA into Conservation Area 3A.

25 Q. Has the spillway been used to take water

1 from 3A back into the EAA?

2 A. It has been. That's rather rare.

3 Q. Are there any other structures associated

4 there with that site?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I'm not sure if I've asked this, but is

7 there any seepage in the L-5 levee?

8 A. We don't normally consider that.

9 Theoretically, I suppose it's possible, but it would

10 be a small amount because the head difference across

11 is fairly small.

12 Q. Perhaps in the Holey Land would there be

13 greater seepage?

14 A. There's those two structures that control

15 water there.

16 Q. Okay. Proceeding, then, west of the S-8

17 structure, what would be the next structure which

18 allows either access or egress of water from the EAA?

19 A. Again, if we define L-3 and -- L-3, L-2 in

20 a similar manner as we did the L-8, the borrow ditch

21 on the outside of the EAA, so there's --

22 Q. On the west side, in other words?

23 A. On the west side. There's a spillway with

24 a culvert with risers that we refer to as G-88. I

25 believe it's G-88. It's either G-88 or 89. There's

1 three structures that confluence between L-3 and L-4

2 and L-28 and Conservation Area 3A. One of those

3 structures connects L-3 to L-4 and from L-4 water

4 could get to L-8 and --

5 Q. L-28 you mean? I'm sorry. Let me break

6 this apart because you're losing me a little bit.

7 Proceeding west of S-8 along the L-4 levee

8 is there any structure along the L-4 levee itself?

9 A. At the junction of the L-4 levee and L-3

10 levee there's a structure I referred to as G-88.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Normally there's no water or no interchange

13 of water there.

14 Q. Now, that structure is solely for the

15 purposes of allowing water, if it was used, to flow

16 from the L-3 borrow ditch to the L-4 borrow ditch?

17 A. That's correct. Normally the way that

18 structure would work, if we have excess capacity at

19 L-8, if we have flooding conditions in L-3 and L-8

20 has additional pumping capacity that we wouldn't use

21 for the EAA, we can open G-88 and pump, relieve some

22 of the flooding conditions in the L-3 area.

23 Q. Where is the L-4 borrow ditch?

24 A. L-4 borrow ditch is on the EAA side of L-4

25 levee.

1 Q. Can water flow from the L-23 into the L-4

2 borrow ditch?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The L-3 borrow ditch is on the outside of

5 the EAA. I guess that would be the southeast side of

6 L-3, is that correct?

7 A. Borrow ditch is on the southwest -- west

8 side of L-3.

9 Q. Outside of the EAA, L-3?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. As I understand, then, G-88 or G-89 where

12 L-3, L-4 connect, it can be used to allow water to

13 flow from the EAA into the L-3 borrow ditch?

14 A. That doesn't go that way. It goes the

15 other way.

16 Q. Okay. It can be used to allow water from

17 the L-3 borrow ditch into the L-4 borrow ditch?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. So normally when it's used at all it would

20 be allowing water into the EAA?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. How often does that occur?

23 A. We've used it last year when we had

24 flooding conditions in the L-3 area and we had excess

25 pumping capacity to L-8. We relieved that flooding

1 by taking water through there and pumping it from L-4

2 into through S-8 into the Conservation Area 3A.

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could you read that back.

4 (Thereupon, a portion of the record

5 was read by the reporter.)

6 THE WITNESS: Last year we relieved

7 flooding conditions in the L-3 drainage area by

8 taking water from G-88 -- from L-3 through G-88

9 into the conservation area via S-3 -- S-8. I'm

10 sorry.

11 MS. BIRCH: S-8 as opposed to L-8 that you

12 stated?

13 THE WITNESS: That's S-8 as opposed to L-8

14 that I stated earlier.

15 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

16 Q. How often does that occur? I know it

17 happened last year. Is that annual, biannual or is

18 that just a very rare occurrence?

19 A. It doesn't happen every year, but it's not

20 that uncommon.

21 Q. All right. Moving then --

22 Is there much seepage in the L-4 canal, L-4

23 levee -- through the L-4 levee?

24 A. We don't consider seepage a major factor

25 there.

1 Q. What about L-3?

2 A. Or seepage through L-3 is not considered a

3 major factor either.

4 Q. What about L-2?

5 A. No. The same for L-2 and L-1. L-1

6 probably a little more seepage through L-1 than L-2,

7 L-3. Also not a major consideration.

8 Q. Have there been any studies with regard to

9 those levees?

10 A. Not to my knowledge.

11 Q. Other than that G-88 or G-89 structure

12 which you stated was at the juncture of the L-3, L-4

13 levee, are there any other structures along the L-3

14 levee?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What would those structures be?

17 A. There's another one at G-89 that connects

18 L-3 with L-28.

19 Q. L-3 with?

20 A. L-28 runs along the western boundary of

21 Conservation Area 3 north and south. The borrow

22 canal for L-28 is on the western side of that levee

23 and would take water down to S-140 where it would be

24 pumped into Conservation Area 3A.

25 Q. Okay. We're not attaching this map as an

1 exhibit, so I'm going to try and be somewhat

2 descriptive here.

3 L-3, where does L-3 commence?

4 A. L-23 -- L-3 terminates at L-4, L-28 and a

5 conduit that leads into Conservation Area 3A. That

6 doesn't have a name to my knowledge.

7 Q. Okay. So --

8 A. That's approximately at the county line.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Three counties come together; Hendry, Palm

11 Beach and Broward County come together near that

12 corner.

13 Q. I guess my question is it does not appear

14 that L-3 connects at all or stretches as far as the

15 L-28. Is that correct?

16 A. It joins L-28 at that corner, at the same

17 place, very close to the same place where L-4 is.

18 Q. So L-28 then, which runs primarily north

19 and south, actually does bend off to the west to meet

20 up with L-3?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Are there two levees then running there,

23 L-4 or L-28 or just one and they're called the same

24 thing?

25 A. No. There's two of them.

1 Q. Oh.

2 A. That's sometimes called confusion corner.

3 (Discussion held off the record.)

4 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

5 Q. You have, sir, mentioned two structures,

6 the G-88 and G-89.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. G-88 connected L-4 with L-3 or the borrow

9 ditches?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. G-89 connects L-3 with L-28?

12 A. Borrow ditches, right.

13 Q. The borrow ditches.

14 And you had also mentioned a conduit, I

15 believe, you said from L-28 into 3A or perhaps it was

16 L-3 into 3A.

17 A. From L-3 into 3A.

18 Q. That is G-89 or is that a different type?

19 A. Something else. It's one more structure

20 that we didn't talk about yet.

21 Q. Okay. Let me finish with G-89 before we go

22 on to that.

23 By the way, are G-88 and G-89 in close

24 proximity to each other?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Essentially right next to each or within --

2 A. A stone's throw.

3 Q. Okay. Does water -- how does water flow

4 through G-89 normally?

5 A. Normally there's no flow across G-89.

6 Again, that's a culvert with flashboards and when

7 water does go there, it goes from L-3 into L-28 and

8 then is subsequently pumped at S-140 into

9 Conservation Area 3A

10 Q. All right. And you had mentioned that a

11 culvert from L-3 into Conservation Area 3A or is that

12 L-28 into 3A?

13 A. No. L-3 into Conservation Area 3A. This

14 is a fairly large structure. That's the primary

15 outlet for L-3 because that culvert structure --

16 Q. What is it called?

17 A. G-155.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. That's not on the map also. That's in

20 between L-28 and L-4 levees is where they run

21 parallel.

22 Q. Is that a gated culvert or --

23 A. It's a culvert -- several culverts with

24 flashboards.

25 Q. You had stated that there is typically not

1 much flow through the G-88 or G-89. Is there

2 typically flow through the G-155?

3 A. 155 is the primary outlet for the L-3 area.

4 Q. Does that mean that there is typically flow

5 through there?

6 A. Yes. That's also a gravity flow structure,

7 of course, so when there's excess water available in

8 that basin that would go into Conservation Area 3A

9 via that structure. That structure is not open all

10 the time. There's times when we have the flashboards

11 in there to save water in the L-8 basin for

12 agricultural purposes so the land isn't over drained.

13 Q. Did you say the L-8 basin?

14 A. I'm sorry.

15 Q. Is that the S-8 basin?

16 A. No. L-3 basin.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. BIRCH: Should we take about a 15

19 minute break?

20 THE WITNESS: We've getting too many

21 numbers.

22 MR. KOBELINSKI: No problem.

23 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)

24 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

25 Q. I believe we completed the L-3.

1 Is there a structure connecting or

2 otherwise dividing the L-2 borrow ditch with the L-3

3 borrow ditch?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what is that, sir?

6 A. It's called G-150.

7 Q. What type of structure is that?

8 A. It's a culvert with a gate.

9 Q. Gated culvert?

10 A. Yes. It's normally open.

11 Q. The L-2 borrow ditch is also on the west

12 side outside the EAA, is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Flow is normally from the L-2 borrow ditch

15 into the L-3 borrow ditch?

16 A. That's correct. When it wants to go the

17 other way we close it.

18 Q. Are there any structures north of the G-150

19 along the L-2?

20 A. Up closer to the corner, close to L-1 we've

21 got a structure called G-156.

22 Q. Is that right at the corner there?

23 A. Very close to the corner.

24 Q. Is that where L-2 and L-1 connect?

25 A. No. It's north of there. I think it's

1 close to the L-1. I don't think there's any

2 structure there. Yeah. Very close, goes off this

3 way, (indicating). Takes water from L-1 into the

4 EAA.

5 Q. That was culvert G-1 --

6 A. -- 56.

7 Q. You say that allows water to flow from the

8 L-1 borrow ditch into the EAA?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. What type of -- that's a gated culvert?

11 A. It's a flashboard spillway. Culvert with

12 flashboard.

13 Q. Do you ever have any flow from the EAA out

14 G-156 into the L-1 borrow ditch?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Are there any other culverts or --

17 excuse me. Not culverts. Any other types of

18 structures allowing water into or out of the EAA

19 along the L-1 levee?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What about seepage along the L-1 levee?

22 A. I don't think it's very substantial.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. I don't know of any seepage investigation

25 that has been carried out there.

1 Q. I believe you stated that the seepage along --

2 was it L-2 was greater than that along L-3 or they're

3 all pretty unsubstantial?

4 A. To my knowledge there's been no seepage

5 studies but I would guess L-2 and L-3 would be less

6 than L-1.

7 Q. Okay. Then, at least according to this

8 map, there are no levees, then, on the northwest

9 border of the EAA, is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Is there any flow or interchange of water

12 along that gap between Lake Okeechobee and L-1 levee?

13 A. Possibly but it's not well documented.

14 Q. Are there --

15 A. We don't really consider it a major

16 interchange there.

17 Q. Are there any canals in that area?

18 A. There's farm ditches in that area. That's

19 why I say the water may work its way around in there,

20 but we don't consider that a major interchange across

21 that area.

22 Q. Drawing your attention up to Lake

23 Okeechobee above L-1 there's station S-4. What does

24 that station do?

25 A. S-4 is a pump station that provides

1 drainage to City of Clewiston and some of the

2 agricultural areas in that vicinity.

3 Q. Okay. That then pumps water from the south

4 of the lake into the lake?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. All right. Are there any other type of

7 structures there?

8 A. There's no spillway associated with S-4.

9 There's some project culverts similar to what we

10 had -- what we described within the EAA proper that

11 go through the levee into -- between the land side of

12 the lake. They're owned and operated by the Corps of

13 Engineers.

14 Q. And those allow water to flow from the lake

15 into that area?

16 A. That would be the normal direction.

17 Q. Are there any pumps pumping the opposite

18 direction?

19 A. No. There's a pump noted on your map as

20 S-236.

21 Q. Where does that pump?

22 A. That pumps from some private land into Lake

23 Okeechobee.

24 Q. That is within the EAA?

25 A. That's outside the boundaries as we define

1 the EAA.

2 Q. What is the S-310 structure?

3 A. S-310 is a lock structure that provides

4 access between Lake Okeechobee and the industrial

5 canal that is open when lake stages are below 15

6 inches. Right now it's wide open so boats can go in

7 and out. When Lake Okeechobee is high, then that

8 structure is operated for navigation.

9 Q. What is the industrial canal?

10 A. Industrial canal is a little canal that

11 runs north/south. It provides boating access to the

12 marina on the inside of the levee and also provides

13 agricultural irrigation and drainage to agriculture

14 interests in that area. Industrial canal doesn't

15 show up on this map. Sorry.

16 Q. How far south does it go from the lake?

17 A. Several miles.

18 Q. For instance, it does not go all the way

19 down to where the L-1 is?

20 A. No. It would not be connected with L-1.

21 Q. Does it go that far down south parallel?

22 A. No. Not quite that far.

23 Q. Does it connect at all with the Miami

24 Canal?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Have we then, to your knowledge, discussed

2 all of the means by which water either flows into or

3 out of the EAA, be it through seepage or structure or

4 otherwise?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who owns G-150 and 156?

7 A. The District.

8 Q. I may have asked before but my notes don't

9 reflect it. Are G-88 and G-89 owned and operated by

10 the District?

11 A. Yes. They're owned and operated by the

12 District.

13 Q. Have you ever been involved in preparing a

14 water budget for the EAA?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. Early 80s. I believe it was 1981-'82.

18 That work has since been superseded and incorporated

19 into another publication or updated publication.

20 Q. Were you involved at all in the review of

21 that more recent publication?

22 A. I read it.

23 Q. Did you provide any comments on it?

24 A. It was a good report. I didn't. I don't

25 think it required comments. It was a good job.

1 Q. Do you recall what report it is that you're

2 referring to?

3 A. I forgot the title of it now.

4 Q. Do you recall who the authors were?

5 A. I believe Shawn Sculley was involved in it.

6 Q. Approximately how long ago was this?

7 A. Three years ago probably. Something like

8 that. I think that's when I read the draft. I'm not

9 sure when the final -- I think there was some delay

10 in publishing, but I'm not really sure.

11 Q. Have you been involved in any of the

12 computer modeling of the water flows through the EAA?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'm going to try to rapidly go through the

15 structures you've referred to. Tell me whether or

16 not the District monitors the flow of the various

17 structures.

18 Starting back at S-3, does the District

19 monitor the water flow through S-3?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How so?

22 A. We monitor the upstream and downstream

23 water levels and pumping records. The U.S.G.S. also

24 monitors that. I think we have a role in funding

25 that U.S.G.S. role, although I'm not directly

1 involved with that.

2 Q. Is it dual monitoring then?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Has the District always monitored that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On a continuous basis for approximately how

7 long?

8 A. 30 years.

9 Q. S-354, does the District monitor the flows

10 through S-354?

11 A. The parameters from which you could compute

12 the flows, yes. The water levels on both sides of

13 the structure and the gate opening.

14 Q. And the what?

15 A. And the gate opening. We don't measure

16 flow directly.

17 Q. How accurate is that?

18 MS. BIRCH: Object to the form.

19 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that I'm in a

20 position to answer that. I could make some

21 rough approximation.

22 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

23 Q. Have you ever looked at the accuracy of the

24 measurements of flow going through S-354?

25 MS. BIRCH: Object to form.

1 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

2 Q. She'll object to a number of questions and

3 it's to record her objections which she may or may

4 not raise to the judge later on but does not impact

5 your answer unless she instructs you not to respond.

6 A. It's outside the scope of what -- of

7 operation of the canal system.

8 Q. Okay. I was actually just asking if you

9 had ever reviewed it before.

10 A. S-354?

11 Q. Yeah.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Does anyone else measure S-354?

14 A. The District measures S-154. I think we

15 also --

16 Q. Excuse me. 354?

17 A. S-354, the District, as I said, measures

18 water levels on both sides of the structure and the

19 gate openings.

20 Q. Does anyone else measure the flow through

21 S-354?

22 A. The U.S.G.S. I believe also does that in

23 conjunction with their monitoring S-2 -- S-3. I'm

24 sorry.

25 Q. How long has the -- skip that.

1 Does the District monitor flows through

2 HG-3?

3 A. That we also monitor the water levels on

4 both sides of HG-3 and we weren't real successful in

5 monitoring what the gate openings were at HG-3.

6 There was some problem in computing those flows.

7 Q. Did U.S.G.S. used to monitor the flows

8 through HG-3?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know whether or not they were

11 experiencing the same difficulty in measuring the

12 flow through HG-3?

13 A. I can't speak for the U.S.G.S.

14 Q. Does the U.S.G.S. currently measure the

15 flow through S-354 in the same method as the District

16 does?

17 A. I'm not sure of their methodology.

18 Q. Do you use those flow measurements in your

19 decisions on what gates to open and close?

20 A. Which measurements?

21 Q. The measurements for flow through S-354.

22 A. The ones by U.S.G.S. or --

23 Q. Which do you use, if any?

24 A. In order to make operational decisions we

25 have some rough -- some rough flow charts from which

1 we determine what our -- what the maximum allowable

2 gate openings are and what the flow through those

3 structures are. We've got our own approximate

4 method. We don't record what it is. We just -- we

5 don't operate on the basis of those flows normally,

6 put it that way.

7 Q. So you actually don't use those flows,

8 either U.S.G.S. or the District?

9 A. For day to day operational decisions,

10 that's correct.

11 Q. What department within the -- or division

12 within the District does the flow measurements?

13 A. Our Data Management Division.

14 Q. Do you know who specifically would be in

15 charge of that for S-354?

16 A. Robb Startzman is Director of our Data

17 Management Division.

18 Q. Do you know if there's a particular

19 individual underneath him who does the measurements

20 themselves or would have the most knowledge regarding

21 those measurements?

22 A. I'm not sure who that would be.

23 Q. Would he have the most knowledge, Robb

24 Startzman, to your knowledge, of the flows through

25 all the structures that connect Lake Okeechobee with

1 EAA?

2 A. Someone working for him would be in charge

3 of that.

4 Q. I believe you stated you have your own flow

5 charts that you use for estimating the flow for

6 operational decisions, is that correct?

7 A. Uh huh.

8 Q. Why don't you use the Data Division's

9 measurements? Is there a particular reason? Lag

10 time or something?

11 A. Lag time exactly.

12 Q. Moving along, then, who measures flows

13 through S-2?

14 A. There's -- our Data Management Division

15 also and the U.S.G.S. also monitor flow and water

16 levels and gate status in a similar manner that

17 occurs at S-3 and S-354.

18 Q. Okay. Do you use -- whose data do you use

19 for flows through S-3, going back to S-3 for a

20 moment, for your day to day operational decisions?

21 A. Who --

22 Would you repeat that?

23 Q. Actually, we were talking previously about

24 S-354. Whose data do you use for S-3 in making day

25 to day operational decisions?

1 A. We also use an approximate relationship for

2 our day to day decisions.

3 Q. Is that essentially based upon the amount

4 of time the pump was running, head differential,

5 etc.?

6 A. We don't even use head differential. It's

7 very approximate. How long the pump is running makes --

8 gives us some idea how much flow went through the

9 structure.

10 Q. Does the District and U.S.G.S. also measure

11 the flow through S-351?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Has the District measured the flow through

14 HG-4 prior to the installation of S-351?

15 A. The same situation as the Miami Canal

16 situation, S-354. Those are --

17 Q. It was measured but it was not -- there's a

18 question as to the accuracy of the measurements?

19 A. That's correct. The reliability of flow

20 estimates through S-351 should be much better than

21 the ones through the hurricane gate.

22 Q. Is there a record of the amount of gate

23 opening or the measurement of the gate opening into

24 the past last 30 years or shorter period?

25 A. Where?

1 Q. For instance for HG-4.

2 A. There is some record of that gate opening,

3 yeah. There's some question with how well it was

4 measured.

5 Q. As I recall, you stated there's some

6 culverts between S-351 and S-352.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Approximately a half dozen or so culverts.

9 Does the District monitor -- excuse me.

10 A. I don't think there's that many between.

11 There's approximately a half dozen on the south side

12 of the lake within the EAA. There's not that many

13 between 351 and 352.

14 Q. Are there any culverts west of S-351 within

15 the EAA?

16 A. Yes. I believe there's also some culverts

17 west of S-351. Half dozen includes that whole south

18 shore.

19 Q. Okay. So there are, for instance, culverts

20 between S-354 and S-351?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I had not understood that previously.

23 Are the culverts, these half dozen along

24 the south shore bordering the EAA and Lake

25 Okeechobee, are they monitored, the flows monitored

1 by the District?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Does anyone monitor the flows through those

4 culverts?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Has the District ever done any type of

7 study or research to estimate what the flow will be?

8 A. We've made some estimates what that flow

9 would be.

10 Q. When you say, "we" do you know who within

11 the District has done that?

12 A. I can't say that for certain. Corps of

13 Engineers has an estimate of those in their water

14 budget. I know that. They keep a water budget for

15 that area.

16 Q. Do you agree with the Corps' estimate?

17 Have you ever reviewed that estimate?

18 A. Pretty rough.

19 Q. You stated the District also has done some

20 study of it. Does the District study agree with the

21 Corps' estimate?

22 A. I believe there's places where there's some

23 differences.

24 Q. Is it with regard to your culverts or just

25 overall?

1 A. Overall. I would think that inflows from

2 the exchange through the culverts is fairly minor

3 when you consider the EAA as a whole.

4 Q. Okay. Did the Corps come to the same

5 conclusion?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. With regard to the District study was there

8 anyone from your department that did that study?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you recall approximately how long ago it

11 was done?

12 A. No. I'm not sure it was ever published.

13 Q. When you say it's relatively minor do you

14 have any idea with regard to the amount? Is that a

15 plus as in there's more water flowing into the EAA

16 through these culverts or is it a negative?

17 A. That would be pure speculation. There's

18 probably water going both ways, but that would be

19 pure speculation as to which over long term would be

20 greater, the inflows or outflows.

21 Q. What would you consider a minor factor when

22 concerning the EAA as a whole?

23 A. Five or ten percent of total inflows/

24 outflows.

25 Q. Do you have an idea as to the approximate

1 percentage of inflows and outflows that seepage would

2 be?

3 A. Seepage is minor, minor in our water

4 budget.

5 Q. I'm talking about seepage around the entire

6 border of the EAA not just Lake Okeechobee.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you be able to put a percentage on

9 it?

10 A. Less than ten percent.

11 Q. And, overall seepage, in your opinion,

12 would that be positive or negative to the water

13 budget in the EAA? Positive meaning water coming

14 into the EAA and negative meaning water flowing out

15 of the EAA.

16 A. I would imagine probably positive.

17 Q. Who, if anyone, measures the flow at S-352?

18 A. S-352 flow is estimated by the U.S.G.S.

19 Q. Does the District also measure S-352?

20 A. We -- for operational reasons we keep, use

21 a similar procedure to what we do at S-354, 351.

22 Q. But Data Management itself does not

23 measure?

24 A. I can't speak for that. I haven't examined

25 those records. I don't think they do that.

1 Q. You have not seen their --

2 A. No.

3 Q. -- measurements?

4 Did the District used to measure the flows

5 at HG-5?

6 A. I don't believe the District did.

7 Q. Did --

8 A. U.S.G.S. did, yes.

9 Q. How accurate, to your knowledge --

10 You were stating previously that the

11 District and U.S.G.S. had some difficulties with

12 HG-3, HG-4. Are the same difficulties experienced in

13 HG-5 by U.S.G.S.?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does anyone measure the flows at culvert

16 10A?

17 A. Not immediately at culvert 10A. The

18 U.S.G.S. has a station at the highway, the highway --

19 I don't remember what the highway number is now.

20 There's a highway that runs right along Lake

21 Okeechobee somewhat downstream of the culvert.

22 Q. So it would be between the lake and the

23 culvert?

24 A. No. The -- culvert 5A is on the lake and

25 that would be east of there. The highway is east of

1 there about half, quarter mile maybe.

2 Q. Is that a flow measurement or is this a

3 water level measurement?

4 A. They are currently attempting to measure

5 the flow there.

6 Q. Are they being successful in doing so?

7 A. I can't speak for them.

8 Q. Do you know how long they have been doing

9 that?

10 A. They put in a velocity meter to help

11 quantify those flows several years ago and I don't

12 believe they have got -- they have a satisfactory

13 calibration in that meter yet.

14 Q. Has the District been reviewing that data?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have they turned the data over to the

17 District?

18 A. I don't know. I haven't been reviewing the

19 data, let's put it that way.

20 Q. Do you know whether they turned the data

21 over to the District?

22 A. To my knowledge they haven't turned the

23 data over to the District. They haven't turned it

24 over to me. I'm not involved with reviewing that.

25 Q. Then going east and south of culvert 12A

1 you mentioned there were a number of farm pumps that

2 pump water through the L-8 levee.

3 A. Uh huh.

4 Q. Are there any measurements of those flows?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You had also stated that you believed there

7 may have been a Corps culvert in there. Is that --

8 A. Associated with those pumps, yes.

9 Q. Do you know whether or not the Corps

10 measures the flows?

11 A. The Corps doesn't measure anything.

12 Q. Do you know whether or not U.S.G.S.

13 measures the flows?

14 A. The U.S.G.S. doesn't measure the flows

15 there.

16 Q. Has the District done any type of study to

17 estimate the measurement of those flows?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know if anyone else has?

20 A. I don't believe -- to my knowledge, nobody

21 else has.

22 Q. Does the District receive pumping records

23 for those pumps?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you have any idea what percentage of the

1 water budget flows through that levee would be?

2 A. I would imagine it would be pretty small.

3 Q. Percentage wise, less than ten percent?

4 A. Less than ten percent.

5 Q. Do you have any other --

6 A. I rather not. Probably much less than ten

7 percent but I rather not narrow that down.

8 Q. Reviewing the S-5A complex as a whole, does

9 the District measure all the various components, the

10 flow through of various components of that? That

11 would be S-5A East, S-5A South, S-5A West and S-5A.

12 A. The District monitors, again, water levels,

13 pumping records and gate openings. The U.S.G.S.

14 computes flow at that station also and they have for

15 many years.

16 Q. Has the District monitored that for many

17 years?

18 A. The U.S.G.S. has been using the official

19 archive on those records.

20 Q. Which measurements do you use in your

21 operations?

22 A. Normally, again, I'll take those rough

23 estimates like we did at Lake Okeechobee. I can't

24 wait for U.S.G.S. to come back and give me their

25 estimates. There's a time factor involved also, so

1 normally my requirements aren't that precise where I

2 have to have it to five or ten percent and I'll make

3 more of an approximation off of these rough

4 guidelines that I have.

5 Q. Do you use historical data and, by

6 historical, I mean the more specific data provided by

7 either the U.S.G.S. or the District Data Management --

8 A. Data Management.

9 Q. -- Data Management Division in your

10 operations at all or you essentially use the

11 estimates that your own division prepares?

12 A. Usually use our own estimates.

13 Q. Is there any portion of your operations

14 where you do use either the District's data

15 management or the U.S.G.S.?

16 A. If for some reason we would be asked to do

17 some detailed water budget study, I go to our

18 official archive records or to the U.S.G.S. rather

19 than using my rough estimates.

20 Q. Okay. Have you been asked to do that any

21 time in the last three years?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So essentially since you've been director

24 you've been using your own rough estimates for

25 operations?

1 A. For day to day decisions, yes.

2 Q. Are there non day to day decisions where

3 you've looked at the other?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Anyone other than U.S.G.S. and the District

6 that measures flows through the S-5A complex?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Proceeding further down to S-6, who

9 measures flows through the S-6?

10 A. The U.S.G.S. and again we measure the pump.

11 We keep pump records and measure water levels on both

12 sides.

13 Q. Is that the same way the U.S.G.S. does it?

14 A. I believe the U.S.G.S. has the UVM meter

15 installed and that's supposedly a more reliable index

16 of flow, then, and certainly an independent estimate

17 of the flow.

18 Q. What does UVM stand for?

19 A. Ultrasonic velocity meter.

20 Q. How long have they been using that?

21 A. Several years. I -- they installed it

22 several years ago. I'm not sure they're using it for

23 their flow measurements. There's a calibrating

24 problem.

25 Q. Same calibrating problem you referred to

1 earlier along the L-8?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is U.S.G.S. taking any parallel

4 measurements other than the UVM water measurement

5 method?

6 A. For what?

7 Q. For flow through the S-6.

8 A. Not to the my knowledge.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. At one time they measured the -- they also

11 measured water levels, but I don't think they are

12 doing that now.

13 Q. S-7, who measures flows through S-7 and the

14 S-7 spillway?

15 A. Again, it's U.S.G.S. measures that and we

16 also measure that.

17 Q. Is the U.S.G.S. measuring that with UVM?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are they also measuring flows through the

20 S-7 spillway?

21 A. They are measuring the combined flow.

22 Q. How does the District measure?

23 A. UVM is in the channel adjacent to it so it

24 measures it. The District measures the parameter

25 that can be used to compute the flow through there,

1 which would be the gate opening at the spillway, the

2 pump records and the water levels on both sides.

3 Q. Who is measuring the flow from the Holey

4 Land into 3A?

5 A. The District is measuring that.

6 Q. How so?

7 A. I'm not sure how that flow is being

8 measured.

9 Q. Would --

10 A. Again, I think there are measuring

11 parameters that are used to compute the flow rather

12 than measuring flow directly.

13 Q. Would Robb Startzman again be the person

14 that would have the most knowledge?

15 A. Some of his people certainly would. He's

16 in charge of that operation.

17 Q. Okay. Who measures flows of S-8?

18 A. U.S.G.S. and Water Management District.

19 The dual role of U.S.G.S. and Water Management

20 District around the EAA is -- has been -- is -- due

21 to the importance of the water budget in the EAA and

22 the flows to Lake Okeechobee and the flows to the

23 conservation areas, we've decided to take a role in

24 funding independent observations or estimates of

25 those flows so we can get the best possible quality

1 data.

2 Q. Who measures the flows through G-88 and

3 G-89?

4 A. The District estimates the flows through

5 G-88 and G-89.

6 Q. How does it do so?

7 A. In the past we did that from infrequent

8 water level measurements and the records of structure

9 operations.

10 Q. And present?

11 A. Present we tried to improve those flows and

12 I'm not sure exactly what process is being used.

13 Q. Who would know that?

14 A. Our Data Management Division.

15 Q. Again the person to speak with would be

16 Mr. Startzman or someone in his division?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Do you use any of those measurements for

19 your operations?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What about the S-140?

22 What about -- culvert G-155 was the one I

23 was referring to. Who measures the flows in that

24 one?

25 A. Data Management Division.

1 Q. How are those measured?

2 A. Again, you'd have to ask Data Management.

3 Q. Who measures the flows through G-150?

4 A. I think Data Management also gives some

5 estimates of that, the flow going through there. I'm

6 not sure that's measured directly. That's a rather

7 secondary structure.

8 Q. Who measures the flow through G-156?

9 A. Data Management.

10 Q. And do you know how they do that?

11 A. On all of -- on all of the G-88, G-89,

12 G-155, G-156 we get an estimate on a daily basis of

13 what water levels are. We also know what the

14 structure operations are so we have some estimate of

15 what the flow going through those structures are at

16 all, if there is any. Data Management Division

17 computes flow through those structures for our

18 official records and I'm not sure exactly what

19 process they use for that.

20 Q. So you have no knowledge as to the accuracy

21 of that?

22 MS. BIRCH: Object to form.

23 THE WITNESS: I can't speak for the

24 accuracy of that.

25 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

1 Q. I believe you had stated the District does

2 not measure the flow through the gap between L-1 and

3 the lake, is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. I think that completes the circuit of the

6 EAA.

7 How do you make the decision when to pump

8 at S-3, S-2? When to pump at S-2, S-3, what governs

9 that?

10 A. We have a permit to operate those pumps

11 from DER and the rules under which we operate

12 currently are called IAP for Interim Action Plan.

13 Involved in that is a point system when we consider

14 rainfall and water levels and other pertinent factors

15 in determining whether we turn those pumps on. The

16 objective is to minimize the use of those pump

17 stations, S-2, S-3.

18 Q. Were you involved in the Interim Action

19 Plan or design of it?

20 A. No.

21 (Discussion held off the record.)

22 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

23 Q. Director of Operations, what exactly is the

24 geographic area that you open and close the gates

25 for?

1 A. South Florida Water Management District

2 Project begins at the north roughly at Kissimmee.

3 Q. Entire project -- or excuse me -- for the

4 entire District?

5 A. For the entire district, yes, with the

6 exception of the west coast here.

7 Q. Okay. Have you been involved in the

8 Modified Water GDM process down to the Park?

9 A. Not directly.

10 You mean to what extent?

11 Q. Reviewing the Modified Water GDM for the

12 District or making recommendations, etc.

13 A. I've recently become involved in reviewing

14 those plans, yes.

15 Q. Have you been involved in -- have you

16 studied the impacts of the SWIM Plan programs or what

17 impacts it would have on water supply for the Water

18 Conservation Areas, the Park and the urban areas

19 along the east coast?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the immediate plan or

22 the proposed amendment to the SWIM Plan which

23 includes certain water supply and hydroperiod

24 aspects?

25 A. No.

1 Q. So you have not studied what impacts it

2 would have upon the operation of the system?

3 A. No.

4 MS. BIRCH: What proposed amendment to the

5 SWIM Plan?

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Just the report from -- is

7 it Galen Miller?

8 MS. BIRCH: Oh.

9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Perhaps -- I don't really

10 care how it's identified. They had hydroperiod

11 changes.

12 BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

13 Q. Are you involved in the review of the

14 change in the Lake Okeechobee regulation schedule?

15 A. I've sat in on some of the meetings, yes.

16 (Discussion held off the record.)

17 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)

18 (Witness excused.)

19 (Thereupon, at 4:25 p.m.,

20 the deposition was concluded.)

1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH

The State of Florida )

3 County of Palm Beach. )

I, the undersigned authority, certify that

5 Ronald Mierau personally appeared before me and was

duly sworn.

WITNESS my hand and official seal this ___

7 day of ________, 1993.

________________________________

9 April Y. Sapp

Notary Public - State of Florida

10 Expires: August 3, 1993

1 C E R T I F I C A T E

The State of Florida )

3 County of Palm Beach. )

I, April Y. Sapp, Court Reporter, do hereby

5 certify that I was authorized to and did report said

deposition in stenotype; and that the foregoing

6 pages, numbered from 1 to ____, inclusive, are a true

and correct transcription of my shorthand notes of

7 said deposition.

8 I further certify that I am not attorney or

counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or

9 employee of any attorney or counsel or party

connected with the action, nor am I financially

10 interested in the action.

11 The foregoing certification of this

transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the

12 same by any means unless under the direct control

and/or direction of the certifying reporter.

Dated this ____ day of ______, 1993.

________________________________

16 April Y. Sapp

The State of Florida )

19 County of Palm Beach. )

The foregoing certificate was acknowledged

21 before me this ____ day of _______, 1993 by

April Y. Sapp, who is personally known to me.

________________________________

24 Notary Public - State of Florida

My Commission expires: