1

 1           DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
       DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
 2 
   
 3   SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE     )
     OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC., and  )
 4   WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC.,             )
                      Petitioners,      ) DOAH Case No. 92-3038
 5        v.                            )
     SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT     )
 6   DISTRICT, an agency of the State   )
     of Florida; et al.,                )
 7                    Respondents.      )
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
 8   FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.;   )
     UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION;   )
 9   and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC.,          )
                      Petitioners,      )
10        v.                            ) DOAH Case No. 92-3039
     SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT     )
11   DISTRICT, an agency of the State   )
     of Florida; et al.,                )
12                    Respondents.      )
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
13   FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE        )
     ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;     )
14   W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC.,      )
     and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC.,           )
15                    Petitioners,      )
          v.                            ) DOAH Case No. 92-3040
16   SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT     )
     DISTRICT, an agency of the State   )
17   of Florida; et al.,                )
                      Respondents.      )
18  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
                          100 S.E. 2nd Street
19                        Miami, Florida
                          February 10, 1993
20                        9:12 a.m. - 5:15 p.m.
   
21                DEPOSITION OF DAVID LEAN
   
22             Taken before THOMAS R. NEUMANN, Registered
     Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for
23   the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of
     Taking Deposition filed in the above cause.
24                          - - - - - - -

                                                 2

 1                       APPEARANCES
   
 2    ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR
      UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
 3 
           KATHY STARK, ESQ.
 4         ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY
           99 N.E. 4th Street
 5         Miami, Florida  33132
   
 6    ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
      LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and
 7    NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC.
   
 8         EARL, BLANK, KAVANAUGH & STOTTS P.A.
           One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636
 9         Two South Biscayne Boulevard
           Miami, Florida  33131
10         BY:  MARK T. KOBELINSKI, ESQ.
   
11    ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS SUGAR CANE GROWERS
      COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC., AND
12    WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC.
   
13         HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS
           123 South Calhoun Street
14         P.O. Box 6526
           Tallahassee, Florida  32314
15         BY:  GARY V. PERKO, ESQ.
                GARY P. SAMS, ESQ.
16 
      SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT.
17 
           POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH & KAUFMAN, LTD.
18         4000 International Place
           100 S.E. 2nd Street
19         Miami, Florida
           BY:  PAUL NETTLETON, ESQ.

                                                 3

 1 
 2                              INDEX
 3   Witness          Direct    Cross    Redirect   Recross
 4   DAVID LEAN
 5   By Mr. Kobelinski:  4
 6   By Mr. Perko:
 7 
 8                            EXHIBITS
 9 
10          NUMBER             BATES NO.          PAGE
11 
12            1            0001570-0001619         20
13            2            0001399-0001409         116
14            3            0001410-0001418         116
15            4            0001440-0001449         116
16            5            0001749-0001761         169

                                                 4

 1  Thereupon --
 2                       DAVID LEAN
 3  was called as a witness and, having been first duly
 4  sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
 5                   DIRECT EXAMINATION
 6   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 7       Q.    Good morning, Dr. Lean.  Could you, as we
 8   typically start out, give your name and address for
 9   the record?
10       A.    Yes.  My name is David Lean and I live in a
11   little town called Apsley, Ontario, Canada.
12       Q.    Enjoying our weather?
13       A.    Yes.
14       Q.    Have you ever been deposed before?
15       A.    No, I haven't.
16       Q.    Well, I have to admit that I'm a little bit
17   naive of the judicial system you have up in Canada.
18   But down here, a deposition is an opportunity for the
19   parties who do litigation, whether that is in a
20   formal lawsuit or in this case an administrative
21   proceeding, to ask questions of individuals under
22   oath, find out what facts they may have regarding the
23   issues in the case.
24             In your case, the deposition will go beyond
25   that.  You have been designated as an expert witness.

                                                 5

 1   We are going to be also exploring opinions you may
 2   have with regard to those issues.  All right?
 3       A.    Sure.
 4       Q.    I'll be asking a number of questions.  I
 5   would like you to answer verbally.  The court
 6   reporter can't take down nods.  Answer yes or no or
 7   whatever the answer is appropriate.
 8             If at any point in time you don't
 9   understand a question, I ask you to please state so.
10   I'll rephrase it.  If you don't know the answer or
11   are assuming or don't remember an answer, just say "I
12   don't know."  "I don't remember."
13             Please do not assume facts.  If you feel
14   compelled to do so, just let us know that you are
15   basing your answer upon an assumption of some sort.
16   Okay?
17       A.    Sure.
18       Q.    Dr. Lean, do you understand that you have
19   been designated as an expert witness in these
20   proceedings?
21       A.    Yes.
22       Q.    Are you familiar with what areas of
23   testimony you will be testifying about?
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    What are those general areas?

                                                 6

 1       A.    It's written down, if I can refer to that.
 2       Q.    You are referring to your witness
 3   disclosure; is that right?
 4             MS. STARK:  I'm not sure I have that.
 5             THE WITNESS:  Grounds for expert opinions;
 6        substance of expected testimony, occurrence of
 7        cultural eutrophication, fundamental processes,
 8        related cultural eutrophication of Everglades
 9        ecosystem, phosphorus limitation of plant
10        growth, assessment of SWIM Plan remedies.
11             And so that's the areas.
12             MS. STARK:  I would also just add to that
13        Dr. Lean may, in fact, be used in a rebuttal
14        capacity concerning mercury.  However, he has no
15        opinions on mercury at this time.
16   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
17       Q.    Let me see if I got all of those because I
18   also didn't bring that with me.  I have it back at my
19   office.
20             I'm probably a lot slower than the court
21   reporter here.  I know I am.
22             Occurrence of cultural eutrophication,
23   cultural eutrophication of the Everglades, phosphorus
24   limitation of plant growth  -- and was there an
25   additional one?

                                                 7

 1       A.    Yes.  Assessment of SWIM plan remedies.
 2       Q.    And that's it?
 3       A.    That's enough.
 4       Q.    That's a full plate?
 5       A.    Yes.
 6       Q.    Have you come to all of your opinions with
 7   regard to those four areas?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    Your counsel just mentioned that you may be
10   doing some rebuttal testimony with regard to a
11   mercury or mercury issues.
12             Have you done any work with regard to that
13   as yet?
14       A.    I haven't done any work -- I haven't
15   published any work on the Everglades or wetlands
16   ever.
17       Q.    Well, with regard to this lawsuit, have you
18   addressed the issue of mercury as yet?
19       A.    Yes.
20       Q.    Other than mercury, then, are there any
21   other areas of expert testimony that you intend to be
22   providing at the final hearing at this time?
23             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
24        question, other than mercury and the other list.

                                                 8

 1   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 2       Q.    The other list we just went through.
 3             MS. STARK:  You can answer.
 4             THE WITNESS:  If someone wants to ask me
 5        about certain aspects of other contaminants, I
 6        can handle that.  I'm competent to handle that.
 7        But it would require some further study.
 8             You know, if someone wanted to talk about
 9        pesticides I'll talk to them, but we have no
10        plans at this point.
11   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
12       Q.    Just --
13       A.    You have seen --
14             MS. STARK:  There is no question pending.
15   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
16       Q.    Just so you know, there are times when your
17   counsel sitting next to you there, Ms. Stark, will be
18   raising objections.  Those are just essentially
19   preserved objections for later determination, if at
20   all, by a hearing officer.  They really should not be
21   influencing your answer or stopping you from
22   responding.  It's only when she directs you not to
23   respond to a question that you are not to respond.
24             With regard to cultural eutrophication,
25   which I understand is the first area you mentioned,

                                                 9

 1   do you have opinions as to whether or not there is
 2   cultural eutrophication occurring in the Everglades
 3   protection area?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    Are you familiar with the term "Everglades
 6   Protection Area?
 7       A.    Yes.  It's defined in the SWIM plan.
 8       Q.    What is your understanding of the
 9   definition of "Everglades Protection Area?  And for
10   the purpose of this deposition we will just refer to
11   it as the EPA.
12             What is your understanding of the
13   geographic area of EPA?
14       A.    Right.  I should say that a lot of the
15   abbreviated and internal kind of short forms, I can
16   get confused on those.
17       Q.    If you prefer, I can keep referring to it
18   as the Everglades Protection Area.
19       A.    I know what EPA is, I think, but it
20   includes both.  EAA and water conservation areas as
21   well as Everglades National Park.
22       Q.    For the purpose of this deposition, I
23   believe the SWIM Plan is also in accord with that.
24   The EAA may not be part of the EPA.
25             When I refer to Everglades Protection Area,

                                                 10

 1   I'm referring to the water conservation area and
 2   Everglades National Park.  All right?
 3       A.    Yes.
 4       Q.    Where is cultural eutrophication occurring
 5   within the EPA?
 6       A.    It's a matter of degree.  At this point
 7   should I give a complete answer to this or just a
 8   direct answer to your question?
 9             At the top end where the phosphorous
10   concentration is the highest is where the greatest
11   amount of eutrophication is occurring.  Then it
12   diminishes as you approach Everglades National Park.
13   But there is still problems of eutrophication in the
14   northern reaches of the park, around the S-12
15   structures.
16       Q.    Let's just for the sake of my
17   understanding, what do you mean by "cultural
18   eutrophication"?
19       A.    Okay.  The term is cultural eutrophication
20   from the belief that -- particularly in lakes -- they
21   evolve from a rather pristine state and accumulate
22   nutrients over time and, as a result, move from this
23   very nutrient pure state to an even richer state.
24   This process was thought to take thousands of years.
25             So along came man and started to build

                                                 11

 1   cities and speeded up the process.  Instead of
 2   thousands of years, as soon as you get a few hundred
 3   thousand people on a lake, it became enriched very
 4   quickly.  So the word cultural eutrophication has
 5   something to do with man's activity.
 6             And historically -- I should also mention
 7   that the concept of the "natural enriching process"
 8   is debated in some circles.  It doesn't necessarily
 9   follow water bodies proceed in this manner.
10   Sometimes, in fact, the reverse is the case.  After
11   you start putting nutrients in, some of them recover.
12             Anyhow in the traditional societies that
13   man lived, the places where he lived and places where
14   he got his food were the same, and so there was a
15   more complete cycling of elements under those
16   conditions.  But now we displaced the people.  We
17   have them in cities.  We have food production
18   elsewhere.
19             In order to grow food, quite often we
20   require fertilizers.  So in the particular case of
21   the Everglades, of course in order to have good sugar
22   production or good plant production, it's necessary
23   to use nutrients to supplement the fact that we don't
24   have a lot of people out there recycling elements
25   onto that particular ecosystem.

                                                 12

 1             And so most of the fertilizers used to
 2   enhance plant growth on the EAA but a tiny little bit
 3   of it comes down the canals, and that tiny little bit
 4   happens to be a whole lot when it comes to assessing
 5   the level that's traditionally been in the water
 6   conservation areas, particularly.
 7       Q.    With regard to the ENP, you mentioned that
 8   there is cultural eutrophication in the -- northeast
 9   of the ENP by the 12 structures.  Do you have an
10   opinion as to how far down that cultural
11   eutrophication is occurring in the park?
12             By that I mean how far down from the 12
13   structures?
14       A.    Yes.  The paper of Broad and Jones goes
15   into that in some detail.  These were also summarized
16   by the Nearhoof review paper.  So my opinion would be
17   as a result of reading those papers.
18       Q.    Have you ever reviewed those papers?
19       A.    Yes.
20       Q.    So approximately how far do you believe
21   then, in your opinion, cultural eutrophication
22   extended from south of the S-12s?
23       A.    I have to dig them up.  But if you would
24   like me to try and remember, it falls off in degrees.
25             When I first went to the Everglades in the

                                                 13

 1   mid '80s, there was very little cattail and willow
 2   growth along the Tamiami Trail, but now it proceeds
 3   down at least a kilometer.
 4             Ron has measured and others have measured
 5   phosphorus content in the same alkaline phosphatase
 6   activity show this gradient falling off in the
 7   distance, corresponding now to changes in the native
 8   community.
 9       Q.    What is the source of the cultural
10   eutrophication, in your opinion, south of S-12?
11       A.    It comes out of the canals.
12       Q.    I assume that's excess nutrients coming out
13   of the canal.
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    Is there a particular nutrient that you
16   believe is causing the eutrophication?
17       A.    Phosphorous.
18       Q.    Do you know what is the cause of
19   phosphorous coming through the S-12s?
20       A.    I can only assume it's the same source
21   going through the Everglades.
22       Q.    What's that source?
23       A.    EAA.
24       Q.    On what do you base the opinion, that it
25   has to be the EAA?

                                                 14

 1       A.    By the water budgets, the phosphorous
 2   budgets that have been made.  It's in the SWIM Plan.
 3             Concentrations are the other.  I use the
 4   terminology 200 micrograms per liter, whereas other
 5   people might use .2 milligrams per liter or PPD.  It
 6   starts off in the 200 region.  And I think the SWIM
 7   Plan says something like two and a half per liter is
 8   all that's left by the time it gets to the Everglades
 9   park.
10             But that still is too high, and so the
11   damage is caused by the residual amount of phosphorus
12   still in the water that comes down all the way
13   through the canal system.
14       Q.    In your opinion, what is the natural or
15   background level of phosphorous in the water at
16   approximately where the S-12s are, the northern
17   portion of the park?
18       A.    They had referred to reports that Bill
19   Walker has prepared trying to summarize a lot of the
20   monitoring data.  And generally they are around 10,
21   rarely over 20, in that region.
22       Q.    Is that the natural background?
23       A.    The natural background, you have to go into
24   the pristine Everglades areas.  That's more like four
25   to seven micrograms per liter.

                                                 15

 1       Q.    Would that be parts per million?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    And how far down into the ENP -- I'm
 4   referring to Everglades National Park.
 5       A.    I got that one.
 6       Q.    How far down into ENP would you have to go
 7   to establish these natural backgrounds?
 8       A.    Certainly seven kilometers would be enough.
 9       Q.    Are you familiar at all with water
10   conservation area 3A?
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    Do you believe there are any portions of
13   water conservation area 3A that are still pristine?
14       A.    It appears so, but I'll qualify that.  When
15   I say I am familiar, I glanced at some survey
16   documents months ago.  It's encouraging to see that,
17   yes.  Some of it looks pretty good.  I flew over it
18   in a helicopter once.
19       Q.    When was that helicopter flight?
20       A.    Time flies when you are having fun.  That
21   was a year ago, I guess.
22       Q.    What is your understanding of what the
23   pristine water quality is in water conservation area
24   3A?
25       A.    In what sense?

                                                 16

 1       Q.    Well, I believe you stated it was four to
 2   seven parts per billion in Everglades National Park.
 3   If you go seven kilometers down from S-12 in the
 4   pristine water conservation area, what is your
 5   understanding what the pristine water quality is?
 6       A.    I have no way of measuring it from a
 7   helicopter.  The summary data doesn't stick in my
 8   mind.  I'm not a hydrologist, either, but I think 3A
 9   has maintained it's state in part.
10             I shouldn't say that because it's not
11   something that I looked into.
12       Q.    Is it your understanding that four to seven
13   parts per billion would be the natural background or
14   pristine water quality throughout the EPA but for any
15   type of man's manipulation?
16       A.    I see what you mean.  Yes, that would be
17   reasonable.
18       Q.    So we go all the way from Lake Okeechobee
19   down to the mangrove swamps?
20       A.    That's tough.  Certainly there would be
21   fluctuations associated with drying cycles, that sort
22   of thing.  There would be seasonal effects.  There
23   would be effects of fire, all of that sort of thing.
24             A guess is no good.
25       Q.    I wasn't asking for a guess, I was asking

                                                 17

 1   whether or not it's your understanding that you would
 2   find a four to seven parts per billion as the natural
 3   background throughout the Everglades but for man's
 4   intervention.
 5       A.    I would guess it would be.
 6       Q.    I need to go into a bit more detail, but
 7   just with regard to your opinion that there is
 8   cultural eutrophication within the Everglades
 9   National Park, on what do you base that opinion?
10       A.    I have a personal opinion.  The plants that
11   you see in these areas are associated with high
12   nutrient conditions.  Personally I observed that.
13       Q.    Personal observation of vegetation, would
14   that be an accurate description?
15       A.    Yes, that would be.  Correct.
16       Q.    Anything else?
17       A.    Certainly one of the nicest reviews is the
18   Nearhoof review I mentioned before.
19       Q.    The Nearhoof review that is part of the
20   SWIM Plan?
21       A.    No, I turned it in as one of my documents.
22   It's a summary report.  The SWIM Plan also provides
23   concentrations, vegetative distributions.  So it's
24   reliable enough.
25             Also in my documents I gave some

                                                 18

 1   information from -- that the District developed in
 2   the recent publication about types of plant
 3   communities related to nutrients.  I think this is
 4   almost a gimme, you know.  It has been pretty firmly
 5   established.  I think it was probably why people were
 6   alarmed in the first place.
 7       Q.    I'm afraid unfortunately you lost me a
 8   little bit on the gimme.
 9             I wasn't sure to what exactly you were
10   referring to was a gimme.  Was it vegetation of some
11   sort?
12       A.    High nutrient levels.
13       Q.    Understand, Doctor, what I'm attempting to
14   do is establish what the basis of your opinion is.
15   What I have down thus far, I believe we probably need
16   to flush it out a bit, is visual observation of
17   vegetation in the ENP Nearhoof review.
18       A.    Wait now, what are we talking about?
19       Q.    We are talking about cultural
20   eutrophication within the Everglades National Park.
21             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
22        question.  You asked about EPA.
23             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Yes.  Let me apologize.  I
24        think for the sake of argument we will just
25        ignore what you told me.

                                                 19

 1   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 2       Q.    What I would like to do is break down the
 3   EPA so I understand if the basis of your opinion
 4   changes based upon the area.
 5             What is the basis of your opinion that
 6   there is cultural eutrophication within the
 7   Everglades National Park?
 8       A.    The visual one, first of all.  I have
 9   walked the area south of the S-12s, flown over it in
10   helicopters.  I have reviewed Ron Jones' papers on
11   that and Bill Walker's reports on nutrient
12   concentrations in that area in which he summarizes
13   the District data.
14       Q.    Just so I understand what I have down,
15   then, as a basis for your opinion of cultural
16   eutrophication in Everglades National Park,
17   observation of vegetation in the park, Ron Jones's
18   papers and Bill Walker's reports on phosphorous
19   concentrations in the water?
20       A.    That is right.
21       Q.    What are the specific Jones papers that you
22   are referring to?  Are they part of the papers you
23   produced to us, sir?
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    Then I think it may be easiest if we pull

                                                 20

 1   those out.  I don't know if we need to mark them now.
 2       A.    For the Nearhoof review, that would also
 3   give the tables and graphs.
 4       Q.    If I understand correctly, they were
 5   produced to us in this order.  I don't know if that
 6   helps you.
 7             If you glance through there perhaps you can
 8   point out what papers.
 9             While you are doing that, let me ask you,
10   you have mentioned Nearhoof.  You likewise believe
11   that the Nearhoof report is -- you are relying upon
12   that as part of your opinion with regard to cultural
13   eutrophication of the park?
14       A.    Yes.  This is the one.  Two things.
15       Q.    Perhaps what we should do, first of all
16   identify what this is that you have selected for us.
17   This is the Nearhoof report that you mentioned a few
18   moments ago?
19       A.    Yes.
20             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Let's mark this as
21        Exhibit 1.
22          (The document referred to was thereupon
23           marked Exhibit 1 for Identification.)
24             MR. KOBELINSKI:  While he is marking this,
25        if you could continue to look through and see if

                                                 21

 1        you can identify the Ron Jones papers that you
 2        are relying upon with regard to the park.
 3             For the record, while Dr. Lean is going
 4        through the other documents, I have marked as
 5        Lean Exhibit 1 to this deposition a document
 6        which bears the title, "Nutrient-induced Impacts
 7        and Water Quality Violations in the Florida
 8        Everglades" by Frank L. Nearhoof, Water Quality
 9        Technical Series, Volume 3, No. 24, Bates
10        Nos. 1195781 through 1195829.
11             I would just note this is a two-sided
12        document.  Also it has some handwriting on it.
13             MR. NETTLETON:  Date?
14             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Draft, April 1992.
15             THE WITNESS:  I didn't put in the Jones
16        paper with the information in there, but it's
17        cited.  The Jones papers that are here relate to
18        another thing that I thought you might be asking
19        me about.
20   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
21       Q.    All right.  If you would, then, in going
22   through Lean Exhibit 1, refer us to the papers of Ron
23   Jones you believe you will be using as your --
24   relying upon for your opinions as for cultural
25   eutrophication in the park.

                                                 22

 1             What I would like you to do, Doctor, I
 2   believe you mentioned that the papers that you are
 3   relying upon of Dr. Jones for your opinion as to
 4   cultural eutrophication of the park are cited to in
 5   Lean Exhibit 1, the Nearhoof draft of the report.
 6             If you could go through there and identify
 7   the papers of Ron Jones that you will be relying
 8   upon.  Perhaps I misunderstood what you said a few
 9   moments ago.
10       A.    Fair enough.  This one is shown.  It shows
11   the soil phosphorus falling of at a distance.  Then
12   there is an alkaline phosphatase graph that has been
13   repeated in places also showing similar trends.
14             This one here shows alkaline phosphatase
15   with select phosphorous as falling off.  So you could
16   change this scale to alkaline phosphatase and cite
17   the same information.
18             But nearest the S-12 -- excuse me, it's the
19   other way around, nearest the S-12 there is a lot of
20   soil phosphorous, low alkaline phosphatase activity.
21   And then as you move out, alkaline phosphatase
22   activity increases such that when soil phosphorus is
23   low, phosphatase is high.  These are things that are
24   interrelated.
25             So my opinion is that eutrophication has

                                                 23

 1   occurred in the Everglades National Park, has
 2   occurred sometimes from the soil phosphorus
 3   concentration and alkaline phosphatase activity.
 4             MR. KOBELINSKI:  For the record, Dr. Lean
 5        was referring to two pages in Lean Exhibit 1.
 6        One bears Bates 1195819.  And if I'm correct,
 7        this is the chart that Dr. Lean referred to with
 8        regard to soil phosphorous.
 9             MR. PERKO:  For the record, could we refer
10        to the figure?
11             MR. KOBELINSKI:  That would be Figure 14
12        that -- it's in handwriting, but that's what's
13        there.  The other chart or graphic that Dr. Lean
14        referred to is Bates page 1195821 and the
15        handwriting has Figure 16.
16             I would also note that apparently there are
17        two sets of Bates numbers on this.  Counsel, I
18        see yours does not have both.
19             MR. PERKO:  We can refer to the DDL Bates
20        numbers.
21             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Fine.  For the record,
22        this is Lean Exhibit 1, Bates No. 0001570
23        through 0001618, and the two pages referred to
24        are 00001608 and 0001610.
25             Making a record is what this is called.

                                                 24

 1   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 2       Q.    Dr. Lean, are you able to identify -- are
 3   there other papers of Dr. Jones that, in fact, you
 4   are relying upon for your opinion as to cultural
 5   eutrophication in Everglades National Park other than
 6   these two charts?
 7       A.    The other papers were more about
 8   mechanisms.
 9       Q.    Do you recall what those papers are?
10       A.    They are here.  Do you want them
11   identified?
12       Q.    I'm just looking for the basis of your
13   opinion as to there being cultural eutrophication in
14   the Everglades National Park.
15             I'm not sure the papers you are relying
16   upon from Dr. Jones are not in the stack that you are
17   reviewing or are -- I got a little lost as to what
18   the basis was there.
19       A.    Yes.  I'm sure it's out, but I don't have
20   it here.  I have brought -- it's got to be one of
21   those, probably the first one I have seen the
22   results, but I wasn't --
23       Q.    Have you actually reviewed, then, the paper
24   or, for instance, what you have referred to me as on
25   Bates page DDL 00001591, Jones RD, relationship

                                                 25

 1   between alkaline phosphatase activity and soil total
 2   phosphorus in the Florida Everglades?  Is that a
 3   paper you actually reviewed?
 4       A.    I don't remember the form of the paper, but
 5   yes, I have read it.  So I can't say what journal,
 6   what author.  I can't remember.  I'm sorry.
 7       Q.    You have cited us to two figures within
 8   this Exhibit 1, the Nearhoof report.  Is there any
 9   other data you are relying upon with regard to your
10   opinion there being cultural eutrophication within
11   the Everglades National Park?
12       A.    Yes.  I mentioned before Bill Walker's
13   review, phosphorous concentrations.
14       Q.    Which review is that that you are referring
15   to, is that a particular date or paper that you are
16   referring to?
17       A.    Yes.  For some reason I didn't send that
18   along.  I was asked my opinion on it.  I read it and
19   it wasn't in the paper that I could find, but -- so
20   it's not here.
21       Q.    Do you recall approximately the date of
22   that report?
23       A.    '92.
24       Q.    Was it your understanding from reading Bill
25   Walker's report that he had come to the conclusion

                                                 26

 1   that the phosphorous in the water passing through the
 2   S-12 was traceable to the EAA?
 3       A.    That's an opinion of an opinion, I think.
 4       Q.    I'm just asking for your understanding.
 5       A.    Did he say the phosphorous came from EAA?
 6       Q.    Is it your understanding that Bill Walker,
 7   either in that report or elsewhere, stated that the
 8   phosphorus passing through the S-12 originates in the
 9   EAA?
10             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
11        question.  He can answer, if he remembers what
12        the paper says.  I'm not going to have him
13        testify about Bill Walker's opinion today.
14             MR. KOBELINSKI:  You can go ahead and
15        respond.
16             THE WITNESS:  The concentration gradient as
17        you move from EAA gets less.  In other words,
18        not the gradient gets less, the concentration
19        gets less as you move away from the EAA.
20             But whether any molecule that shows up at
21        Everglades National Park is, in fact, fertilizer
22        or it fell out of the air, nobody can say that.
23        That's not necessarily what I learned from his
24        paper.  But you can't distinguish one molecule
25        of phosphorous from another.

                                                 27

 1             Certainly it suggests, looking at the
 2        concentration and how it changes with distance,
 3        that the elevated concentration originated in
 4        the EAA.
 5   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 6       Q.    And is the basis of that opinion solely by
 7   looking at what you are referring to as this
 8   phosphorous gradient?
 9       A.    Phosphorous gradient from the time you
10   leave the EAA to Everglades National Park, yes.
11       Q.    And the gradient you are referring to, what
12   is that a gradient of?
13       A.    They have both total phosphorus and
14   reactive phosphorous.
15       Q.    Where would I be looking for this gradient?
16             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
17        question because I have no idea what you are
18        talking about.  You can answer if you
19        understand.
20             THE WITNESS:  It's also summarized in the
21        review paper.  May I just have a moment to
22        refresh my memory?
23             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Sure.
24             THE WITNESS:  You asked me where I saw the
25        concentrations that were given that I'm

                                                 28

 1        referring to as a gradients.  That would be --
 2             MS. STARK:  Let him rephrase the question.
 3             MR. KOBELINSKI:  He can finish the answer.
 4   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 5       Q.    Go ahead, Doctor.
 6       A.    Would you repeat the question, then?
 7       Q.    Let me ask you -- or perhaps rephrase my
 8   question.
 9             Where physically would this gradient be in
10   the EPA?
11       A.    Okay.  People have attempted to put
12   together a substance budget for nutrients.  So they
13   would combine the hydrology for all of the water
14   flows, how it gets from the top end to the bottom
15   end, so to speak.  And along that course they would
16   measure phosphorous.  And these data have been
17   measured by the District labs and summarized in a
18   number of reports, and many of them included in SWIM
19   Plan documents.
20             But I think my opinion is largely from
21   looking at summary documents Bill Walker has
22   prepared.  So as the water flows along, the
23   concentration gets less and less to the point where
24   at the top end, to make a long story short, you are
25   looking at concentrations in the 200 region.  And at

                                                 29

 1   the bottom end it's 10 to 20 -- usually much less
 2   than 20.
 3       Q.    The gradients you are referring to, perhaps
 4   I can pick or narrow this to your focus, is this in
 5   the marsh water?
 6       A.    There are marsh stations, but generally the
 7   path water is flowing and it's a convoluted one, as
 8   you know.  So some are marsh stations and some are
 9   canal stations.  I think most of the samplings done
10   on structures of one form or another tend to make
11   life a little easier.
12       Q.    Would there be any other sources of
13   phosphorus?  What are other sources other than the
14   EAA of the phosphorous flowing through the S-12
15   structures?
16       A.    Rain.
17       Q.    Anything else?
18       A.    Urban activities.
19       Q.    Anything else?
20       A.    There is a potential source.
21       Q.    I didn't hear what you said.
22       A.    I said people often think -- to complete
23   the picture, you would have to say "urban
24   activities," but that has been, I believe, dealt with
25   separately.

                                                 30

 1             So in the SWIM Plan, it does give some
 2   summary bits of information of the total phosphorous
 3   and water budgets, but I'm not prepared to discuss
 4   that in detail.
 5       Q.    Well, is it your understanding that other
 6   than the EAA the other sources of phosphorous going
 7   through the S-12 would be rain and urban activity?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    Does the Tamiami Trail affect the
10   phosphorus going through the S-12 at all?
11       A.    You have to appreciate that this isn't my
12   full time job.
13       Q.    I understand that.
14       A.    It's also really not my turf.  I come down
15   to consult from time to time, but I preface my answer
16   by saying I would be -- I haven't given it a lot of
17   thought.
18             With what the Tamiami Trail does, and what
19   all of man's activity has done is channel water flow
20   as opposed to the sheet flow condition that existed
21   earlier.  It certainly acts as a barrier to the
22   original flowing conditions.
23       Q.    But it does not provide a source of
24   phosphorous to any extent?
25       A.    No.  The same document I referred to, I

                                                 31

 1   apologize for not having that here, they look at
 2   similar gradients to the north of Tamiami Trail.  If
 3   the trail was the source of phosphorus, then you
 4   would see a similar gradient on both sides and you
 5   don't see that.  It's only in the directional flow.
 6             You are looking for phosphorous coming off
 7   the road essentially are you, and it doesn't appear
 8   to be significant.
 9       Q.    You say that if the Tamiami Trail was a
10   source of phosphorous you would have gradients going
11   from both sides, is that what you said?
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    It would even go upstream against the flow?
14       A.    Not in the canal itself, but in the wetland
15   where the flow is very small.  If there was a
16   gradient due to the trail, you would see it expanding
17   up into 3A, and you don't see that.
18       Q.    Where would the pristine -- where is your
19   understanding there are pristine areas of 3A?
20       A.    I can't answer that.  I don't know.
21       Q.    Are they above or north of the S-12?
22       A.    I don't know.
23       Q.    Is it your understanding that all of 3A is
24   north of the S-12s?
25       A.    I believe so.

                                                 32

 1       Q.    So if there are pristine areas, by
 2   necessity they had to be north of the S-12 in the
 3   park?
 4       A.    Maybe we should have a map.
 5       Q.    I'm sure we can find one, if necessary.
 6   There is the S-12 and there is 3A?
 7       A.    What was the question?
 8       Q.    The question is, if there are pristine
 9   areas in 3A, they would be north of the S-12; is that
10   correct?
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    You had mentioned that when you were giving
13   the source of phosphorous going through the S-12, the
14   urban activities have been dealt with separately.
15   How have they been dealt with?
16       A.    My information comes from, I guess, SWIM
17   Plan summaries and that sort of thing, and I haven't
18   spent a lot of time on it.
19       Q.    Would your opinion with regard to there
20   being cultural eutrophication of the park change if
21   it turned out that the phosphorous passing through
22   the S-12 was not from the EAA?
23       A.    What was the question again?
24       Q.    If the source of the phosphorus passing
25   through the S-12 was not from the EAA, would that

                                                 33

 1   change your opinion as to whether or not there was
 2   cultural eutrophication in the park?
 3       A.    You have to say that again.  There is an
 4   interesting twist to it.  I'm not sure if I'm hearing
 5   it correctly.
 6       Q.    If the source of the phosphorous passing
 7   through the S-12 was not the EAA --
 8       A.    Phosphorous is phosphorous.  It doesn't
 9   matter where it comes from.
10       Q.    -- then your opinion that there is a
11   cultural eutrophication in the park is not dependent
12   upon the source of that phosphorous being the EAA?
13       A.    That is right.
14       Q.    Do you have a specific opinion that the
15   source of the phosphorous going through the S-12 is
16   the EAA?
17       A.    Yes.
18       Q.    What portion of that phosphorous -- as I
19   understand it, you said 4 to 7 would be background?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    And what is the phosphorous concentrate
22   going through the S-12, to your understanding?
23       A.    Again, what can you remember from a graph
24   you looked at a year ago?  Bill Walker's graph showed
25   me, I would say, that rarely is it much over 15 and

                                                 34

 1   generally between 8 to 15.
 2       Q.    If background is 4 to 7 and the average is
 3   8 to 15 going through the S-12s, what portion of that
 4   additional phosphorus do you believe comes from urban
 5   activity?
 6       A.    I have no way of knowing that.
 7       Q.    Do you know what portion comes from rain?
 8       A.    I know what the SWIM Plan had said, it
 9   comes from rain.  It's my opinion that's an over
10   estimate by a considerable amount.
11       Q.    Do you have an opinion as to that that you
12   will be testifying to at trial?
13       A.    I don't know.
14       Q.    Has someone asked you?
15       A.    I'm interested in calculating rain.  It's a
16   tough thing to do right.
17       Q.    Is any portion of the difference between
18   the 4 to 7 background that you have stated and the 8
19   to 15 pass through the S-12 attributable to rain?
20       A.    Very little.
21       Q.    What would be very little.  We are not
22   dealing with a large difference?
23       A.    Oh, I think that what rain contributes is
24   less than what the SWIM Plan suggests.  They give a
25   number of something like 40% to some parts of the

                                                 35

 1   Everglades, and I think that's high.
 2       Q.    Well, at the S-12 of 8 to 16 or 8 to 15
 3   parts per billion going through, what portion of that
 4   would be from rain?
 5       A.    A trivial amount.
 6       Q.    What portion would be from the EAA?
 7       A.    It's my opinion that most of it.
 8       Q.    Most, being 80%, 90%?
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    Is there a percentage that you would --
11       A.    Most of it.
12       Q.    I assume when you talk about background
13   being 4 to 7 and the amount passing through the S-12
14   being 8 to 15, that really the excess phosphorous is
15   between 1 and 8 parts per billion; is that correct?
16             MR. NETTLETON:  Objection to the form.
17             MR. KOBELINSKI:  You can essentially ignore
18        them.  I typically do.
19             THE WITNESS:  The thing to keep in mind, we
20        start off concentrations of 200.  And it's only
21        a small amount that makes it down to the other
22        end.
23             And most of it is deposited along the way
24        causing increases in soil phosphorous and the
25        associated changes which occur as a result of

                                                 36

 1        increased soil phosphorous concentrations in
 2        terms of changes in vegetation and the like.
 3             The residual that you see seems pretty
 4        small, but that residual is sufficient to cause
 5        the changes which we have observed, I think.
 6   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 7       Q.    All right.  I'm just trying to determine
 8   what that residual is.  If there was not an EAA,
 9   let's say it was just a marsh out there, a natural
10   marsh.  Would you have 4 to 7 parts per billion
11   going through the S-12s?
12       A.    I would have no way of knowing, but I think
13   that it would be.  I mean, if there is no human
14   activity in Florida, any pristine marsh, the water
15   concentration is very low.
16       Q.    There is human activity.  Let me perhaps
17   change my question to you, Doctor.
18             Let's say instead of pumping water into the
19   Everglades Protection Area, all of the water from EAA
20   was pumped into Lake Okeechobee so no water was sent
21   south.
22             What would you anticipate the
23   concentrations going to S-12 would be?
24       A.    The water has to go somewhere.  You can't
25   just pile it up forever.  You got to send it either

                                                 37

 1   to the ocean --
 2       Q.    They do that a lot.  What would you believe
 3   the phosphorous concentration passing through the
 4   S-12 would be if EAA water was not sent south?
 5       A.    That's an impossible question.  I cannot
 6   answer.
 7       Q.    Do you believe it would be background?
 8             MS. STARK:  Objection.  He answered your
 9        question.
10   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
11       Q.    You can go ahead.
12       A.    Do we have canals?
13       Q.    Yes, we still do.  We have all of those
14   canals there.
15       A.    If there was no EAA there at all?
16       Q.    The EAA is there.  We are pumping all the
17   water north to Lake Okeechobee.
18       A.    You can't do that.  That's a hypothetical
19   question.
20       Q.    It's exactly that, it's hypothetical.  If
21   the EAA did not contribute water to the Everglades
22   Protection Area, what would the concentration in your
23   opinion be passing through the S-12?
24             MR. NETTLETON:  Objection, unless you are
25        advising him where the water is coming from.

                                                 38

 1             THE WITNESS:  We could have a closed loop
 2        of the EAA to reuse the waste water, so that
 3        what you use is --
 4             MS. STARK:  Don't change the hypothetical,
 5        just answer the question.
 6   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 7       Q.    I'm just trying to figure out what would
 8   come through the S-12 if there was no EAA input.
 9       A.    I don't know.
10       Q.    I guess my question, going back to what
11   portion of the elevated phosphorus is going through
12   the S-12, which -- 4 to 7 background and 8 to 15 is
13   the approximate average that you are working with
14   passing through the S-12, what portion is
15   attributable to the EAA.
16       A.    I answered that before.
17       Q.    80%?
18       A.    Greater than 80%.
19       Q.    So approximately an area of 7 to 8 parts
20   per billion?
21             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
22        question.  Would that be correct?
23             THE WITNESS:  The question really has no
24        bearing on -- you are asking me to interpolate
25        how thousands of acres of marsh would respond

                                                 39

 1        and I can't do that.
 2             You are asking me if phosphorous exported
 3        from EAA could be reduced to very low levels
 4        what would the concentration be in Everglades
 5        National Park.
 6             That's -- nobody can answer that.  I think
 7        they would be foolish to try.
 8   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 9       Q.    You had earlier stated that vegetative
10   change as a result of increased phosphorous input was
11   a gimme, if I understood that comment earlier.  What
12   vegetations were you referring to?
13       A.    I think any change from the native
14   vegetation is the concern.
15       Q.    You had stated that you had both walked and
16   flown the area south of the S-12; is that correct?
17       A.    Yes.
18       Q.    Approximately how many times have you
19   visited that on the ground?
20       A.    South of the S-12, included the dosing
21   site.
22       Q.    Let's deal with the dosing site a little
23   bit later.  I'll broaden my question.
24             How many times have you been to Everglades
25   National Park on the ground?

                                                 40

 1       A.    About five.
 2       Q.    Could you tell me when those times were?
 3       A.    That's tough.  The first time was about
 4   '86.  Yes.  About every year or so since.
 5       Q.    1986 was approximately the first time you
 6   visited the park?
 7       A.    Yes.  It might have been '87.
 8       Q.    That area?
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    Do you recall where in the park you
11   visited?
12       A.    The dosing site.
13       Q.    Did you also visit the area within five
14   kilometers south of the S-12s?
15       A.    The first trip was in an airboat, so we saw
16   it.  We went down from Shark River Slough and went by
17   airboat.
18       Q.    You visited the area south of the S-12s?
19       A.    Yes.
20       Q.    Next time would be approximately a year
21   later?
22       A.    Something like that.
23       Q.    On this first trip, who did you visit the
24   park with?
25       A.    Ron Jones.

                                                 41

 1       Q.    Anyone else other than an airboat driver,
 2   unless it happened to be some sort of scientist?
 3       A.    There was a hydrologist.  I didn't talk to
 4   him.  He was doing his thing.
 5       Q.    What was the purpose of your visit?
 6       A.    Get warm.
 7       Q.    I gather this was in wintertime?
 8       A.    Yes.  I was working with another colleague
 9   of Ron Jones, Bill Cooper.  So Ron had read my papers
10   and he said, "I have some questions for you," and he
11   said come and take a look.  And so we formed an
12   association at that time that we maintained ever
13   since.
14       Q.    You are speaking of Ron Jones, not Bill
15   Cooper?
16       A.    Yes.  I published papers with Bill Cooper.
17       Q.    Was the purpose of this first visit, then,
18   to visit the dosing site?
19       A.    No.  I knew about the dosing site.  The
20   original scientist that did it had come to Canada and
21   consulted with me, Mark Flora.  So I knew about the
22   problem as early as 1980 and had helped them in the
23   experimental design.  So it was a pleasant surprise.
24             Mark didn't even send me a post card about
25   how it turned out.  So it was a pleasant surprise to

                                                 42

 1   go and actually see the experiment after it was over.
 2       Q.    The purpose was not to visit the dosing
 3   site, what was the purpose of that first trip?
 4       A.    To talk about the phosphorous cycling
 5   mechanism in the Everglades National Park.  As I say,
 6   the purpose of my visit was not to do that.  It was
 7   at that time that Ron formed a -- Ron and I formed a
 8   discussion group about the problems of studying
 9   phosphorous cycling, even the ecosystem.
10       Q.    Who was in that discussion?
11       A.    Just he and I.
12       Q.    A group of two?
13       A.    Yes.
14       Q.    The next time that you were down in the
15   park was approximately a year later; is that correct?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    That would be putting you in '87 or '88?
18       A.    Yes.
19       Q.    Is there a particular -- the first trip you
20   made, it sounds like it was in the winter.
21       A.    They are all in the winter.
22       Q.    Your deposition happens to be set during
23   winter.
24       A.    Yes.
25       Q.    Approximately the next year would be '87 or

                                                 43

 1   '88.  Where did you visit in the park?
 2       A.    Two places.  South of the S-12s.  And I
 3   remember going to the dosing site periodically from
 4   '87 to -- I guess '92 was the last time.
 5       Q.    Not to confuse the issue, but to go back to
 6   your initial trip, was that a one-day trip?
 7       A.    No.  I came down to write a paper that Bill
 8   Cooper and I had done work in Canada.
 9       Q.    Perhaps -- nothing to do with phosphorous?
10             I believe -- perhaps I didn't phrase my
11   question correctly.  Your visit to the park itself,
12   the airboat, was that a one-day trip?
13       A.    That one was, yes.
14       Q.    Did you conduct any testing or research on
15   that trip?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    This was in '86, your initial trip?
18       A.    It was more likely '87, as I think about it
19   now.
20       Q.    No testing or research done in '86?
21       A.    The first trip might have been '87.
22       Q.    What testing did you do in 1987?
23       A.    We sampled some water.  Ron sampled some
24   soils and I introduced him to radio tracer
25   phosphorous kinetics, the use of radioactive

                                                 44

 1   phosphorous.  He certainly was able to do this sort
 2   of work independent of me.  But since I have done so
 3   much in the past, he said let's do it.
 4       Q.    Did you actually do any water or soil
 5   sampling?
 6       A.    I was along.
 7       Q.    Who was doing the sampling?
 8       A.    Ron was.
 9       Q.    Who did then the lab work on those samples?
10       A.    We both did.
11       Q.    At what lab?
12       A.    His, at FIU.
13       Q.    Do you recall approximately how many water
14   samples you took?
15       A.    Basically it was a method evaluation, and
16   so we were interested in only a few water samples,
17   two or three.
18       Q.    What methods were you evaluating?
19       A.    We were evaluating the rate of phosphorous
20   turnover time in the open water.  In other words,
21   I'll define turnover time as the time required for
22   the pool of PO4 to be taken up and replaced.  That
23   time was less than a minute.
24       Q.    And you are saying that time was less than
25   a minute based upon that sampling that you took?

                                                 45

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    And that was two to three water samples, as
 3   I recall you stated?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    Where were those water samples drawn?
 6       A.    Pristine Everglades.
 7       Q.    Do you recall approximately how far down
 8   from the S-12 that would be?
 9       A.    No.
10       Q.    Was that the dosing site?
11       A.    No.  But I would say partly in between.
12       Q.    Did you do any other water quality testing
13   or sampling?
14       A.    I did total phosphorous.
15       Q.    Anything else?
16       A.    He had some mud, but I don't know what he
17   did with it.
18       Q.    And perhaps that gets to my next question.
19   What soil sampling did you do?
20       A.    He took some mud samples.  I wasn't part of
21   that.
22       Q.    You did not participate in any lab analysis
23   of that?
24       A.    No.
25       Q.    Did you review any of the results of that

                                                 46

 1   sampling?
 2       A.    No, it was method evaluation.
 3       Q.    What method evaluation was this?
 4       A.    For the radio tracer.
 5       Q.    The soil was also for that?
 6       A.    No, water.
 7       Q.    The soil was not method evaluation?
 8       A.    No.
 9       Q.    Did you do any radio tracer phosphorous
10   kinetics work while you were there or you just
11   explained the process to him?
12       A.    We brought the sample back and did it at
13   FIU.
14       Q.    Do I understand you, this radio tracer,
15   phosphorous kinetics is used to determine this turn
16   over that you were talking about?
17       A.    Yes.
18       Q.    Any other data sampling or analysis?
19       A.    No.
20       Q.    Moving on, then, to the following year,
21   which is 1988, to the best of your recollection --
22       A.    I can't put any dates on it.
23       Q.    Approximately a year later?
24       A.    Ron and I talk on the phone two or three
25   times a year.  He sends me occasional papers to look

                                                 47

 1   at.  He asks me for comments from time to time.  I
 2   have sent students to his labs because it's a good
 3   place to learn things.
 4       Q.    Do you recall, then, the next time you
 5   visited, which as I believe you said was
 6   approximately a year later?
 7       A.    I have come down a number of times since
 8   '82 to '87 to the present time.
 9       Q.    The next trip I believe you stated you went
10   south of the S-12s to the dosing site?
11       A.    We went to the dosing site for sure.
12       Q.    So the following trip was to the dosing
13   site?
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    South of the S-12 dosing site.  Anyplace
16   else?
17       A.    No.
18       Q.    Did you do any data collection or sampling
19   during this trip?
20       A.    I think Ron did some, but I wasn't part of
21   it.
22       Q.    Did you participate at all in the
23   laboratory analysis of the samples?
24       A.    No.
25       Q.    What did you do with regards to that trip?

                                                 48

 1   Just visual observation, drove around in the
 2   airboat?
 3       A.    Nice to see the dosing site which I was
 4   interested in.
 5       Q.    Anything else other than that observation?
 6       A.    No.
 7       Q.    Was that again a one-day trip?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    By that, I mean the airboat?
10       A.    Yes.
11       Q.    The following trip was approximately a year
12   later?
13       A.    Listen, I don't know where you are going.
14   But other than to say I think it was 1987 when I went
15   the first time, and I know my first trip out was by
16   airboat.  And all the other trips were by helicopter.
17   That's all I can say.  I'm not trying to stonewall
18   you.
19       Q.    What you just told me in a nutshell was
20   what I was interested in exactly pretty much what you
21   have been doing.
22             With regards to the helicopter trips, of
23   the trips subsequent to '87 have you done any type of
24   sample as you did on the first trip?
25       A.    As I said in the beginning, I have done

                                                 49

 1   almost no work on the Everglades.
 2       Q.    So other than that same knowledge on the
 3   first trip, have you done any sampling?
 4       A.    No.
 5       Q.    When is the last trip you made to the park?
 6       A.    The last trip to the park was just after
 7   Andrew.  I was asked to help them on a scientific
 8   evaluation on the effects of Andrew, but their
 9   timetable didn't fit with mine.
10             I was down in Florida and made a trip out
11   partly for my own benefit to see if I wanted to be
12   involved.  So I just drove down the road towards
13   Flamingo and stopped at a few places to make a
14   personal assessment to decide if I wanted to be
15   involved in that study or not.
16             They wanted more of my time than was
17   available, so I declined.
18       Q.    When is the last time you have been to the
19   area, whether by air or boat or foot or otherwise,
20   south of the S-12s?
21       A.    Dosing site, was a meeting at Everglades
22   National Park headquarters when a number of experts
23   were invited in preparation for the lawsuit, and a
24   group of us went to the dosing site at that time.  So
25   that would have been in '92, I would think.

                                                 50

 1       Q.    Would you have gone to the area south of
 2   the S-12s?  By that I mean the first kilometer south
 3   of the S-12s?
 4       A.    We went straight to the dosing site then.
 5   But on a previous trip we did drive along with
 6   another scientist who was also Canadian, Richard
 7   Carrignan.  He does work in Argentina, so the three
 8   of us went to work in that area.
 9       Q.    With regard to the trip to the dosing site,
10   who were the other scientists involved in that?
11       A.    Everyone that was at the meeting at
12   Everglades National Park was involved.  Some of the
13   lawyers at the time.  The EDAW.  They do some of
14   the -- they were part of the meeting.  The specific
15   role is -- they were just people that I was
16   introduced to.
17             It strikes me that there was another
18   half-dozen scientists that were commenting on it at
19   the meeting at the Everglades National Park.
20       Q.    Was Ron Jones involved in that group?
21       A.    He didn't go.  He had plenty of helicopter
22   visits.  He has been to the park enough times.
23       Q.    Do you recall any other scientists that
24   participated in that?
25       A.    Yes, but I can't remember his name, the

                                                 51

 1   English guy that worked with us for a while.
 2       Q.    You, then, recall no names of any of the
 3   scientists that participated in that meeting?
 4       A.    No.  I'm not good at remembering names.
 5       Q.    Is Maltbe the English gentleman?
 6       A.    Maltbe.  He had worked on the dosing site,
 7   too.
 8       Q.    And who were the people that you visited
 9   the S-12s with by car?
10       A.    Ron Jones, myself and Richard Carrignan.
11   He is from Quebec.
12       Q.    Who is EDAW, is that an abbreviation for
13   something?
14       A.    They were just people that I met.  They
15   were part of the meeting.  These are people from
16   EDAW, how do you do.
17       Q.    Do you know what that stands for?
18       A.    I think it's an acronym, maybe a company or
19   something like that.
20       Q.    Do you know what they do?
21             MS. STARK:  I'm going to object to the
22        question as completely irrelevant.  You don't
23        have to answer.  He said he doesn't remember.
24   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
25       Q.    Do you remember what they do?

                                                 52

 1       A.    I know what they did with me.  They would
 2   ask me questions and I would answer questions.  One
 3   of the great difficulties for a scientist is to speak
 4   in English that people can understand, and so they
 5   assist in preparation.  Scientists I suppose for
 6   court hearings.
 7       Q.    What are the vegetative -- on your visits
 8   south of the S-12s structures, what are the
 9   vegetative changes that you have seen there?
10       A.    I'm not a botanist so don't expect to get
11   Latin names.  But the difference is so striking that
12   anybody could recognize it.  The sort of changes that
13   one sees instead of the low level, three feet high or
14   so, four feet high of sawgrass.  You initially see
15   sawgrass twice as high, and then changes in the
16   community to other plants which I can't name.
17             But the ultimate change in the community is
18   towards the willow and cattail.  So from a distance
19   you would say we moved from a highly diversive system
20   with a lot of different plants towards a much more
21   lower diversity of plants which are dominated by the
22   cattails with occasional willow.
23       Q.    You have visited this area south of the
24   S-12s from approximately '86 and '87 forward.  Did
25   you see a change in that?

                                                 53

 1       A.    Yes, I did.
 2       Q.    I'll rephrase it.  You visited that area
 3   south of the S-12s from '86.  I believe you stated
 4   your last trip was '92.  Have you seen a change in
 5   that area south of the S-12s?
 6       A.    Yes.  It's hard to believe, but I have.
 7       Q.    What is that change you have seen?
 8       A.    The one I just referred to that -- the
 9   height of the plants is much greater and a switch to
10   the presence of cattails and willow.
11             And to illustrate why I'm so sure about
12   this, is we tried to land a helicopter where they had
13   landed in the past and we couldn't.  It was high
14   enough to hit the helicopter blades.
15       Q.    What was high enough?
16       A.    The height of some of the plants.
17       Q.    Would that be the sawgrass?
18       A.    No, we are talking about a mixed community
19   which includes cattails and willow.
20       Q.    And so as I understand it, then, the area
21   got larger from '86 to '92; is that correct?
22       A.    I didn't say larger.  But in the spots that
23   we had visited you asked me had I observed a change
24   and I said yes, I have.
25       Q.    Let me ask you this.  Has the area of

                                                 54

 1   vegetative impact gotten larger from your observation
 2   from '86 to '92?
 3       A.    I can't document that in any way.
 4       Q.    Has the vegetation changed within that
 5   impacted area from '86 to '92 other than getting
 6   larger, taller?
 7       A.    Yes.  As I said, you can see these cattails
 8   stand with willows south of the S-12s.
 9       Q.    Were those there in '86?
10       A.    Not to the same extent, certainly.  I'm
11   not -- I just would avoid saying that.  In '86 there
12   may have been one or two plants, you know.  I didn't
13   see them.  My visual observation is they weren't an
14   important part of the vegetation back then.  They are
15   now.
16       Q.    In '86, then, do you recall whether you saw
17   any vegetative impact south of the S-12s?
18       A.    I was essentially a tourist.  I didn't plan
19   to be involved, so I wasn't paying particular
20   attention.  It was all pretty new to me.
21       Q.    I understand that.  I understand how that
22   can affect your recollection.  My question is, do you
23   recall whether or not you saw any vegetative impact
24   south of the S-12s in '86?
25       A.    At the time I wouldn't know what an impact

                                                 55

 1   was.  But my visual recollection is that it's
 2   considerably different now than it was then.
 3       Q.    And do you have an opinion as to how far
 4   down the vegetative impact extend into the park south
 5   of the S-12s?
 6       A.    I can't answer that.  My field involves
 7   phosphorous mechanisms of how it moves around.  I
 8   preface this part by saying I'm not a botanist.  I
 9   can't identify any of the plants.
10       Q.    Do you see vegetative impact north of the
11   S-12s?
12       A.    I can't comment on that.
13       Q.    Do you believe there is cultural
14   eutrophication north of the S-12s?
15             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
16        question.  You mean directly north or do you
17        mean somewhere north?
18   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
19       Q.    Within the first kilometer north of the
20   S-12s, do you believe there is cultural
21   eutrophication within conservation area 3A?
22       A.    Certainly there is a lot of cattails.
23       Q.    Does that mean there is cultural
24   eutrophication there?
25       A.    Yes, it does.

                                                 56

 1       Q.    Approximately how far north of the S-12s
 2   does the cultural eutrophication extend?
 3       A.    I don't know.
 4       Q.    Do you have an opinion as to that?
 5       A.    No.
 6       Q.    Do you equate the presence of cattails with
 7   cultural eutrophication?
 8       A.    They wouldn't grow in a pristine wetland
 9   unless it's at a bird rookery or an alligator hole or
10   something like that that tends to concentrate
11   nutrients, and then you will see it.
12       Q.    On what do you base that opinion?
13       A.    I have seen it.
14       Q.    That's based upon personal observation?
15       A.    A lot has been written about it by people
16   more qualified than I.  You will find cattails in
17   rookeries, you will find cattails at alligator holes.
18       Q.    You stated that you are not a botanist.
19   Does that mean you are not an expert in botany?
20       A.    Yes.  That follows.
21       Q.    You have also stated that your expertise
22   lies more in the area of -- chemical nature of
23   phosphorus cycles; is that correct?
24       A.    No.  I would say I'm an ecologist.  I'm
25   interested in the interaction between chemical

                                                 57

 1   processes and community response.  Too often people
 2   get interested in a species list and lose sight of
 3   the bigger picture.
 4       Q.    Is it your opinion, that the cattails
 5   located south of the S-12s are caused by nutrients
 6   from the EAA?
 7       A.    We had some discussion on that earlier,
 8   didn't we?  You were asking me to say how much of the
 9   contribution of the higher phosphorous levels was due
10   to the EAA, and I said most of it.  And the elevated
11   phosphorous levels I think was responsible for the
12   vegetative changes.  Aren't we going around in a
13   circle?
14       Q.    I don't think so.  You are the expert.  You
15   would possibly know.  Are the cattails then north of
16   the S-12s caused by increased nutrients?
17       A.    I think you can say that plants grow where
18   they are the best suited.  So you find certain
19   species growing where the physical, chemical and
20   other properties are best suited to them.  They take
21   over.  So where you find cattails, you can be sure
22   the right conditions exist for their growth,
23   otherwise they wouldn't be there.
24       Q.    Are there cattails growing in non-eutrified
25   lakes in Canada?

                                                 58

 1       A.    No.
 2       Q.    Do cattails only grow in eutrophic areas?
 3       A.    It would require some definition of what's
 4   eutrophic and what isn't.  But a lot of people are
 5   involved in looking at a diversity of pristine
 6   wetlands in Canada and are alarmed at the same sort
 7   of problems that you see anywhere else, that with
 8   even modest levels of nutrient enrichment you moved
 9   from a highly diverse ecosystems to monocultures of a
10   few species.  And cattails are a very common plant
11   that seem to dominate.
12       Q.    How would you define eutrophic for the
13   Everglades?
14       A.    I don't know.  I would have to -- what we
15   are specially interested in is not a definition so
16   much as what are the essential features of pristine
17   Everglades and what happens to that with nutrient
18   enrichment.
19             Most wetland ecologists wouldn't believe
20   that such high oxygen conditions exist as they do in
21   the Everglades.  Most wetland ecologists work in
22   soils that have zero oxygen in them, so most wetland
23   ecologists don't have the privilege to work in such
24   clean systems.
25             So I think they are biased in that sense.

                                                 59

 1       Q.    Well, you have given an opinion as to there
 2   is cultural eutrophication in the ENP and EPA.
 3             For that matter, what do you consider to
 4   be an eutrophic state for the ENP?
 5       A.    You probably heard this many times, but if
 6   you grab some soil from the pristine Everglades and
 7   smell it, pick it up, you don't find it
 8   objectionable.  It smells like fresh soil.
 9             Now, if you take some of the enriched soil
10   or just by walking through it, it smells like rotten
11   eggs.  It stinks and you don't want to go near it.
12             So this is a feature of eutrified
13   conditions that dramatically change the pristine
14   nature of the Everglades through nutrient enrichment.
15       Q.    I don't mean it sarcastically, I'm sure you
16   are not proposing a smell test be used to determine
17   for eutrophication?
18       A.    No, it's one that you can identify with.
19   Measuring hydrogen sulfide is the way to quantify the
20   amount of rotten egg gas produced.  Or measuring
21   methane production is another indicator that the
22   soils have moved from oxygenated to a reducing state
23   or reduced state.
24       Q.    Well, is there any other way or do you have
25   any other opinion as to what a eutrophic condition

                                                 60

 1   for the ENP is or Everglades National Park?
 2       A.    Yes.  The best is to look at oxygen
 3   profiles.
 4       Q.    Is there such a thing as nutrient
 5   eutrophication?
 6       A.    All of it is nutrient.
 7       Q.    Is there -- was there a particular level,
 8   then, of oxygen within the soils that would indicate
 9   this is eutrophic and this is non-eutrophic?
10       A.    Yes.
11       Q.    Non-eutrophic I assume would mean
12   unimpacted or pristine area?
13       A.    Yes.
14       Q.    What is that level of oxygen that would be
15   indicative of eutrophication?
16       A.    Not much changes.  If you have enough, you
17   got enough.  But as you move down towards zero,
18   things change very quickly.  So there is a big
19   difference between .5 and .2.
20             The big difference is milligrams per liter
21   of oxygen.  When oxygen is totally used up, then
22   organisms start getting oxygen from other substrates.
23   They use the oxygen from carbon dioxide and give you
24   back methane.  Instead of CO2 they give you CH4.
25             Similarly by reducing sulfate, SO4, they

                                                 61

 1   can give you back H2S, which is rotten egg gas which
 2   you say, "Oh, this stinks.  I want out of here."
 3             Those are conditions which exist as a
 4   result of eutrophication of the soils.
 5       Q.    Where between zero and .5 would you
 6   consider eutrophic to be that would be an impacted or
 7   eutrophic area for the Everglades National Park?
 8             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
 9        question.
10             MR. KOBELINSKI:  I didn't hear the
11        objection.
12             MS. STARK:  I just object to the form.
13             THE WITNESS:  I think it's not productive
14        to establish these gradients.  And it's in many
15        ways like saying how much cyanide will kill you.
16        A little bit you wouldn't get sick, a little bit
17        more and you might.  Then a little bit more, you
18        might die.  So I wouldn't put a limit on it.  I
19        have answered the question.
20   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
21       Q.    Okay.  Have you established that there is
22   cultural eutrophication to the ENP based upon data
23   you reviewed with regard to differences in oxygen
24   profiles in the soil?
25       A.    Yes.

                                                 62

 1       Q.    And whose work was that?
 2       A.    That's Ron Jones.
 3       Q.    Is that part of the Nearhoof report we
 4   marked as Exhibit 1?
 5       A.    I think they give some oxygen profiles in
 6   the sediments.  I think more importantly, too, in the
 7   other papers that are provided.
 8             For example, my document was labeled as 21
 9   C, potential rates of methanogenesis in sawgrass
10   marshes with peat and moss soils.  That one, you took
11   pristine soils and added phosphorous to it and you
12   could simulate the conditions that you find in
13   eutrified systems.  He could generate production of
14   methane.  So that's rather telling.
15       Q.    Would this allow you, then, to determine a
16   particular measurement for eutrophication?
17       A.    No.  I wouldn't put a -- I went through
18   that.  There is no sharp cut off between good and
19   bad.
20       Q.    Are there other means of determining a
21   measurement for a pristine as compared to a eutrophic
22   area?
23       A.    Yes.  A lot of people use what's called EH,
24   which is a measure of how reduced the sediments are.
25       Q.    When you say reduced sediments are, in what

                                                 63

 1   manner reduced?
 2       A.    After you use up oxygen, then there is a
 3   electrical potential which can be measured which
 4   tells you how short of oxygen they are.  And if you
 5   got a value of plus 200 millivolts, these are
 6   reasonably oxidized sediments.  Minus 200 means they
 7   are significantly reduced.
 8             This is a technique that's commonly used by
 9   a lot of people looking at sediments.
10       Q.    What are the factors that impact the oxygen
11   profiles in the soils in ENP?
12       A.    What are the factors that influence oxygen
13   profiles in the soils?
14       Q.    Yes.
15       A.    The most profound one is the presence of
16   phosphorous.  As I pointed out just a moment ago, all
17   Ron had to do is add phosphorous to pristine soils
18   and he could generate production of methane.
19             In other words, the peat that's buried out
20   there is phosphorous limited, and so the
21   micro-organisms can't break down the carbons there
22   because they lack the nutrients to do it.  If you add
23   the nutrients, they are turned over.
24       Q.    Other than phosphorous, are there any other
25   factors that influence the oxygen profiles on EP

                                                 64

 1   soils?
 2       A.    The other, depth of water, probably.
 3       Q.    Anything else?
 4       A.    Well, the amount of decaying vegetation
 5   that's on them.  I suppose organic loading, if that
 6   existed.
 7       Q.    Organic loading?  I'm sorry, I don't know
 8   what you mean by that.
 9       A.    Organic loading could be from sewage
10   treatment plants.  For example, if someone dumped a
11   truck of manure into the Everglades, it would have
12   that effect.  Or any easily metabolizable substrate.
13             Sugar, for example, would be good food for
14   micro-organisms, as is simple amino acids or that
15   sort of thing.
16       Q.    To your knowledge, is manure or sugar added
17   to the park?  Is that one of the --
18       A.    Oh, no.  I gave you what is an organic
19   substrate.
20       Q.    Are there any organic substrates or organic
21   loads that are impacting the oxygen profiles in the
22   park?
23       A.    I don't think so.
24       Q.    So, to your knowledge, the factors are
25   phosphorous, depth of water on the surface?

                                                 65

 1       A.    You were asking what factors could affect
 2   oxygen profiles in general.
 3       Q.    I was talking about the park.
 4       A.    No.  I gave you an answer initially which
 5   was that the pristine Everglades had oxygen in the
 6   sediment profiles.  This is rather unusual.
 7             The explanation of why there is oxygen
 8   there is that the decomposition mechanisms of the
 9   organics that's buried there are phosphorous limited.
10   This was demonstrated by Ron in his papers where he
11   added phosphorous to isolated soils and was able to
12   generate methane production as a consequence.
13             So that was only adding one particular
14   substrate, and I think that's the critical one.
15       Q.    Are there any other factors, then, with
16   regard to the park this time, so you understand, that
17   impact the oxygen profiles in the soils?
18       A.    Water depth, perhaps.
19       Q.    When you say perhaps, do you have an
20   opinion as to whether or not water depth does impact
21   that?
22       A.    No, I don't really.
23       Q.    Do you know whether or not Ron Jones
24   studied that?
25       A.    No, I don't.

                                                 66

 1       Q.    Do you know if anyone studied that?
 2       A.    Sure.
 3       Q.    Who has?
 4       A.    I would say that a lot of people study
 5   wetlands.  If they are bone dry, you have one effect.
 6   And if they are flooded, you have another.
 7       Q.    Has anyone studied that with regard to the
 8   park?
 9       A.    I don't believe so.  No.
10       Q.    Do you believe until such study is done you
11   can't come to the opinion that phosphorous is the
12   most important impact?
13             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
14        question.
15             THE WITNESS:  Do you want to rephrase the
16        question?
17   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
18       Q.    Sure.  Until such a study is done with
19   regard to hydrologic changes to the park, do you
20   believe that you can come to an opinion that
21   phosphorus is the primary causal factor of changes in
22   oxygen profiles in soil?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    Have you looked to see whether or not there
25   have been any changes in the hydrology of Everglades

                                                 67

 1   National Park?
 2       A.    Not me.  Others have.
 3       Q.    Have you read their works?
 4       A.    Not in any detail, no.
 5       Q.    Do you know whether or not there have been
 6   changes to the hydrology of the park?
 7       A.    There is always a persistent worry that the
 8   park has been dried up, you need more water.  But
 9   that's third hand.
10       Q.    Do you know if there are any times when the
11   park is flooded?
12       A.    Sure.  It's part of the natural cycle.
13       Q.    Do you know whether or not there are times
14   that the park is flooded, at times when it naturally
15   would not be?
16       A.    I suppose.  I don't know.
17             I think it's well --
18             MS. STARK:  There is no question pending,
19        Doctor.
20   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
21       Q.    What is your understanding of inputting of
22   water to the park?
23       A.    It's regulated.
24       Q.    Other than rainfall, that is?
25       A.    Yes.

                                                 68

 1       Q.    Do you know whether that regulation
 2   schedule echoes what naturally would have occurred if
 3   there was no project, if there was no man --
 4             MS. STARK:  I object to this line of
 5        questioning.  This is not his area of expertise.
 6             He has not been listed as an expert in
 7        hydrology.  He can answer this question, but I'm
 8        going to cut it off pretty soon.
 9             THE WITNESS:  What was the question?
10   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
11       Q.    The question is whether or not the flows
12   through the S-12s echoes what naturally would have
13   occurred, the amount of water that would be flowing
14   through that area --
15             MS. STARK:  Same objection.
16             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Wait until I finish the --
17        question.
18   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
19       Q.    -- absent man's intervention?
20             MS. STARK:  Same objection.
21             THE WITNESS:  I think people would like to
22        move in that direction, but I have no way of
23        knowing how successful they have been.
24   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
25       Q.    You have stated that there have been

                                                 69

 1   studies in other wetlands with regard to the impact
 2   of water depth on the oxygen profiles on the soil; is
 3   that correct?
 4             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
 5        question.  Mischaracterization of the testimony.
 6   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 7       Q.    Go ahead and respond.
 8       A.    Water depth is a factor.  And it becomes an
 9   important factor in soils that are enriched, but it's
10   less in pristine wetland soils.  If you don't have
11   the metabolic activity, it doesn't matter really how
12   deep the water is.  But it does matter in the
13   enriched soils where diffusion can play a role, such
14   as in conservation area 2A.
15       Q.    Have you read any studies regarding the
16   impacts of water depth to the oxygen profiles of
17   wetland soils?
18       A.    Yes.
19       Q.    Have you read any studies of the impact of
20   water depth on the oxygen profiles of Everglades
21   soils?
22       A.    Everglades National Park soils?
23       Q.    Let's extend that to the Everglades
24   Protection Area.
25       A.    Yes.  I read Richardson's earlier report.

                                                 70

 1       Q.    Curtis Richardson?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    Did you agree with his conclusions?
 4             MR. NETTLETON:  Object to the form.
 5             THE WITNESS:  I didn't agree with the
 6        intent of making any kind of conclusion.  I just
 7        read it to see what was going on.
 8             MS. STARK:  Same objection.
 9   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
10       Q.    Do you recall what his report said?
11       A.    No, not in detail.  I have read it two
12   years ago or something like that.  But you never
13   isolate any environmental variable from everything
14   else that is necessary to sustain the health of
15   organisms or ecosystems.
16       Q.    That's true with following rules also,
17   right?
18       A.    Yes.  I mean phosphorous, hydrology,
19   sunlight, the works.
20       Q.    With regard to your comment regarding other
21   wetlands, you have read studies regarding impacts of
22   water depth on the oxygen profiles of the soils.
23             Are the Everglades unique in their oxygen
24   profiles of the soils?
25       A.    "Unique" is a strong word.  I'm sure there

                                                 71

 1   are other similar systems perhaps in most parts of
 2   the world, but almost without exception they have all
 3   been justified to the point where they have already
 4   been degraded, and so it's a rare occurrence to have
 5   flooded soils with such high oxygen levels.
 6       Q.    Have you ever read any reports dealing with
 7   the water depth on wetland soils where you did have a
 8   high oxygen profile?
 9       A.    You have to ask it again.
10       Q.    Sure.  I'm trying to understand your
11   understanding of how water depth impacts high oxygen
12   wetland soils.
13       A.    Well, I think if you are taking a course in
14   soils, that flooded soils have a different oxygen
15   diffusion rate than non-flooded soils.
16             A porous substrate will allow diffusion of
17   oxygen faster than a wet sponge.
18       Q.    Fair enough.  But going back to my
19   question, have you read any studies of wetland soils
20   that have high oxygen profiles and the study of the
21   impacts of change in water depth upon those oxygen
22   profiles?
23       A.    I read Curtis Richardson's report.
24       Q.    Other than that one?
25       A.    No.

                                                 72

 1       Q.    Are you able to come to an opinion as to
 2   what role the water depth or changes in water depths
 3   have on the oxygen profiles --
 4             MS. STARK:  Objection.
 5             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Wait until I finish the
 6        question.  That's the second time.
 7   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 8       Q.    Do you have an opinion as to what role
 9   water depth plays on the oxygen profiles of
10   Everglades soil?
11             MS. STARK:  Objection to the form of the
12        question and instruct you not to answer.  He has
13        not been listed as a hydrology expert.  He has
14        not been listed as an expert in water depths.
15             MR. KOBELINSKI:  You are instructing him
16        not to answer that?
17             MS. STARK:  I am.
18             MR. PERKO:  Basis, counsel?
19             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Yes.
20             MS. STARK:  The basis is that you have the
21        list of things that he is to give an opinion on.
22        It does not include hydrology.
23             MR. KOBELINSKI:  I'll play this through
24        quickly.
25             The doctor stated oxygen profiles are what

                                                 73

 1        he would consider the best means of determining
 2        cultural eutrophication.  I'm now exploring what
 3        factors impact that.
 4             If you are saying I can't explore
 5        hydrology, how it impacts cultural
 6        eutrophication, that's fine.  We can finish
 7        today by lunchtime.
 8             Are you going to let him answer the
 9        question?
10             MS. STARK:  You should rephrase the
11        question.
12             MR. KOBELINSKI:  Read the question back.
13                  (The question referred to was thereupon
14                  read by the reporter as above recorded.)
15             MR. KOBELINSKI:  No need to rephrase it.
16        Your instruction not to answer still stands?
17             MS. STARK:  He can answer questions
18        regarding the oxygen levels in the soils.  He is
19        not going to answer questions regarding
20        hydrology.
21             If he can answer the question with that
22        caveat, then he can answer the question.
23             MR. KOBELINSKI:  I don't think it was a
24        question about hydrology.
25   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

                                                 74

 1       Q.    Go ahead, Doctor.
 2       A.    My analogy was that a porous substrate will
 3   allow oxygen diffusion faster than a wet sponge.  So
 4   an oxygen profile is maintained by presence or
 5   absence of metabolic activity.
 6             If the metabolic activity is high and the
 7   diffusion rate is low, oxygen is going to be used up.
 8   So in soils where the metabolic rate is low, it
 9   doesn't matter if the water is there or not there.
10   Nothing is using up the oxygen, so you maintain
11   oxygen levels.  But when the diffusion rate is low
12   and the metabolic rate is high, as it would be with
13   phosphorous enrichment, oxygen will be used up under
14   those conditions.
15             So water depth is important only in cases
16   where oxygen diffusion to the sites of metabolic
17   activity is critical.
18       Q.    In a pristine area of the Everglades is
19   there a difference in the oxygen profile in the soil
20   during the rainy season as compared to the wet
21   season -- wet season compared to the dry season?
22       A.    I honestly can't answer that because I
23   haven't even reviewed the data that have been
24   collected on that.
25             What Ron has told me is that he has

                                                 75

 1   measured oxygen in the soils out there and it's
 2   there.  He has published papers where he adds
 3   phosphorous to it and it goes away.
 4             So I'm more interested in mechanisms,
 5   whereas you are asking me to summarize what would be
 6   a very expensive survey.  Then you get into this
 7   messy business of 94 stations visited every two weeks
 8   and this course where you measure oxygen.  And I have
 9   just counted for 20,000 measurements -- which not
10   only breaks the bank but it doesn't tell you anything
11   about mechanisms or what's going on.
12       Q.    I'm just trying to understand, we are using
13   oxygen profiles as a characterization of cultural
14   eutrophication?
15       A.    Yes.
16       Q.    Are there seasonable variations in oxygen
17   profiles of pristine Everglades soils?
18       A.    Yes.  Also changes over 24 hours.
19       Q.    Why would there be changes in the oxygen
20   profiles of pristine Everglades soil?
21       A.    Things die and things grow.  Whenever
22   something grows, it results in oxygen production.
23   When it dies, it results in some oxygen consumption.
24       A.    So all of those things are related.
25       Q.    Other than plant growth, does the seasonal

                                                 76

 1   change have any impact upon the oxygen profile of
 2   Everglades soils?
 3       A.    I have no -- I'm only a visitor.  It's not
 4   my main line of research.
 5       Q.    Does water depth and duration of water
 6   influence the phosphorous in the soil?
 7       A.    Say that again.
 8       Q.    Does water depth and the duration it stays
 9   there influence the amount of phosphorous in the
10   soil?
11             MR. NETTLETON:  Objection to the form.
12             MR. KOBELINSKI:  You want to explain that
13        one?
14             MR. NETTLETON:  I don't think you have
15        given enough information in your question as to
16        what's in the water.
17   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
18       Q.    Go ahead and answer, Doctor.
19       A.    I'll have to rephrase the question.
20       Q.    Feel free.  Give me a better one.
21             MR. NETTLETON:  You see, I told you.
22             MR. KOBELINSKI:  You trained him.
23             THE WITNESS:  We never spoke.
24             MR. KOBELINSKI:  I'm kidding.
25             THE WITNESS:  What you are asking me is

                                                 77

 1        what factors affect diffusion rate of nutrients
 2        out of muds.  Wet is wet.  You can't have more
 3        than wet.
 4             In other words, if the water is sufficient
 5        to cause a soil sample to be saturated, it
 6        doesn't matter if twice as much water is on
 7        there.  It still -- the soil itself will be
 8        saturated.
 9             Unsaturated soil conditions, one finds
10        higher concentrations in the deeper soil
11        profiles because of the concentration gradient
12        that's the driving force for the rate of
13        transports out of the muds.
14             And so water depth is not a factor once
15        it's wet.  On the other hand, if it's dry, then
16        it can't go anywhere anyhow.
17             Now, I think what you are driving at is
18        kind of a classical interpretation of
19        phosphorous and its association with soils.  And
20        I think that that has very little bearing on
21        what we are talking about -- in sedimentology
22        101 they would be talking about redox conditions
23        and oxygen interaction and this sort of thing.
24             I don't think it has any bearing on what we
25        are talking about now, so I'll avoid boring you

                                                 78

 1        with that.
 2   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 3       Q.    Does the duration of water have an impact
 4   upon the amount of phosphorous in the soils?
 5             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
 6        question, duration.
 7   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 8       Q.    Do you know what "duration" means, Doctor?
 9       A.    I would rephrase it.  I think I know what
10   you are getting at.
11             MS. STARK:  Don't rephrase the question.
12        Let him rephrase the question.
13             THE WITNESS:  Does water velocity over
14        soils --
15             MS. STARK:  Doctor, let him rephrase it.
16   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
17       Q.    Does the amount of time the water is on the
18   soils --
19       A.    I see what you mean.
20       Q.    Actually you are correct, velocity.  If you
21   slow down the velocity, you have greater duration
22   contact time for soils.
23             Does that impact the amount of phosphorus
24   in the soils?
25       A.    In the soils?

                                                 79

 1       Q.    Yes.
 2       A.    That could mean a lot of things.  It could
 3   mean does it affect the rate the soil become -- it
 4   could affect the rate the soil becomes phosphorous
 5   enriched.  But it could also relate to the rate of
 6   phosphorous transport out of the soils.
 7             In its present form I can't give you a
 8   simple answer.
 9       Q.    What about duration of flooding?  Does
10   duration of flooding have an impact upon the amount
11   of phosphorous in the soils?
12             MS. STARK:  Objection to the form of the
13        question.  You can answer if you can.
14             THE WITNESS:  What you are getting at, if
15        one has stagnant water over a particular
16        sediment column, would the phosphorous level be
17        higher than if it was moving away, something
18        like that, is that what you are asking?
19   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
20       Q.    No.  Let me move away from that for a
21   moment because I think we are getting confused there.
22       A.    Yes.  There is a whole bunch of variables
23   that could be involved.
24       Q.    With regards to the measurements of the
25   oxygen profiles in the soils in Everglades National

                                                 80

 1   Park, these are profiles done by Ron Jones; is that
 2   correct?
 3       A.    The ones I know of have been, but others
 4   I'm sure have done it.  I think you would accept
 5   oxygen levels are higher in pristine Everglades
 6   soils.  I think again this Nearhoof review gives some
 7   values for that.
 8       Q.    Is this a paper that actually addresses the
 9   various oxygen profiles?
10       A.    No.  Not to my knowledge.  I'm sure there
11   is.
12       Q.    Have you seen a set of data which reflects
13   that?
14       A.    As I mentioned before, I'm not interested
15   in these huge surveys so much as mechanisms, because
16   surveys are expensive and they tell you very little
17   about what's really going on.
18       Q.    Do you know how far down south of the S-12s
19   you would have an impacted area of oxygen profiles in
20   the soils?
21       A.    Not really, no.
22       Q.    With regard to the measurements done by Ron
23   Jones for the oxygen profiles of the park soils, do
24   you know what time of day those were taken?
25       A.    During working hours.  And the dosing site,

                                                 81

 1   I have seen results of that.  They were measured
 2   every two hours over 24 hours.
 3       Q.    Are you relying upon any of that data for
 4   your opinion as to cultural eutrophication?
 5       A.    Sure.  But if you look at Figure 22, that
 6   provides some of that.  Do you want to see it?
 7       Q.    Yes.
 8       A.    Can I go to the men's room?
 9       Q.    The way we play this, unless there is a
10   question pending, if you need to take a break you are
11   not to hold up your hand, just tell us.  All right?
12       A.    I'm ready for one.
13             MR. KOBELINSKI:  I'll look at this and we
14        can go back.
15             MS. STARK:  Five minutes.
16                  (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
17                  after which the following proceedings
18                  were had:)
19   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
20       Q.    Doctor, referring to Exhibit 1, Bates
21   0001616 -- and Dr. Lean, Figure 22 you are referring
22   me to, this is with regard to water conservation area
23   2A, right?
24       A.    It doesn't matter.
25       Q.    If I understand this correctly --

                                                 82

 1       A.    Can I go back?  You asked me a question
 2   about patterns of oxygen, so I couldn't answer it.
 3   This tells -- you were saying does it change.  I'm
 4   saying look at Figure 22 and you will see yes, it
 5   changes.  It changes every 24 hours.  And you can see
 6   what sort of changes occur.
 7             Now you can ask your question.
 8       Q.    Now we will try that.
 9             This Figure 22 deals with DO and water
10   columns?
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    How does that compare with DO in the -- or
13   oxygen in the oxygen profile of soil?
14       A.    We were talking about diffusion of oxygen
15   and the overlying water is at the end of diffusion,
16   loop diffusion gradient.  So what you have at the
17   outside is this.
18             So rates of diffusion of oxygen into the
19   muds is driven in part by the concentration of the
20   water.  So before you can appreciate the factors
21   affecting concentration in the muds themselves you
22   have to recognize these sorts of changes occur.
23       Q.    Does the oxygen profile in the soils in a
24   pristine or background area of the Everglades, does
25   it ever go down to zero?

                                                 83

 1             MS. STARK:  Could he read back that
 2        question?
 3             I don't think he was listening.
 4             THE WITNESS:  I got it.
 5             MS. STARK:  He has it.  It's all right.
 6             THE WITNESS:  I could even give it back
 7        again.  Does the oxygen level in pristine water
 8        go to zero?
 9             I'll give you an example, it goes to near
10        zero during night fall.
11   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
12       Q.    I was talking about in the soil, the soil
13   profile, does the oxygen profile go to zero at any
14   point?
15       A.    It may, but the general pattern is no, it
16   doesn't.
17       Q.    Do you know approximately what it does go
18   to?
19       A.    No.
20       Q.    I believe you said the range is somewhere
21   between zero and .5. That's not the range for the
22   pristine, but you were talking about just ranges of
23   oxygen profiles in the soils?
24       A.    No, we were talking about -- you were
25   asking me questions about how reduced the soils were,

                                                 84

 1   at what point do you start to get these critical
 2   levels, where you could say, yes, this is a eutrified
 3   system or not.  I was giving values of .5 .2 and
 4   essentially zero in the context of how reduced the
 5   sediments were.
 6       Q.    Now, just again so I understand, .5 .2, are
 7   those oxygen profile numbers?
 8       A.    Yes.  But rarely do you see these low
 9   levels of pristine soils, as far as I know.
10       Q.    What would you expect to see in the
11   pristine soils?
12       A.    Closer to saturation.
13       Q.    Which is?
14       A.    Around 8 milligrams per liter.
15       Q.    That would be 8 or .8?
16       A.    8.
17       Q.    What time of the day would you expect that?
18       A.    In the soils themselves, they are pretty
19   constant.  It doesn't change.
20       Q.    I have to go back over this, but I
21   misunderstood some earlier testimony where you said
22   that there were diurnal changes in the soil?
23       A.    The water column.
24       Q.    What are the impacts other than the
25   vegetative changes, other than the cultural

                                                 85

 1   eutrophication south of S-12?
 2       A.    What are what?
 3       Q.    What are the impact of cultural
 4   eutrophication other than the vegetative changes you
 5   testified regarding south of the 12 structures?
 6       A.    The word impact, of course, is a function
 7   of how you perceive it.  If you were living in the
 8   mud it would be quite different than if you are just
 9   looking at it.  And so there is a whole range of
10   chemical changes which occur which alter the habitat
11   for organisms that try to live there.
12       Q.    I don't mean to skip around, but a couple
13   of more questions arose with regard to the
14   phosphorous -- the oxygen profiles.
15             Again, trying to understand a pristine
16   area, what I would be looking for, you have 8
17   milligrams per liter.
18             Is that a correct measurement, by the way?
19       A.    8 is saturation.
20       Q.    In flooded soils in a pristine area?
21       A.    Generally, yes.
22       Q.    What do you base that opinion on or -- yes,
23   opinion?
24       A.    Some conversations that I have had with
25   Ron.

                                                 86

 1       Q.    Anything else?
 2       A.    No.  That's what makes, I think, pristine
 3   Everglades so unique.
 4       Q.    On what do you base your opinion that there
 5   are no diurnal changes in the oxygen profile soils in
 6   the Everglades?
 7       A.    What causes diurnal changes anywhere.  It's
 8   due to atrophic organisms, so-called primary
 9   producers that produce oxygen.  They don't live in
10   the dark so there is no effect of sun light if you
11   are in the mud.
12       Q.    Does the diurnal changes in the water
13   column have any impact upon the soil?
14       A.    Very slowly.
15       Q.    Flipping back, then, to cultural
16   eutrophication impact south of the S-12s, we
17   discussed vegetation.
18             What would be the soil impact, if any?
19       A.    The word "soil impact" doesn't mean
20   anything to me.
21       Q.    Well, would you expect there to be any
22   changes in the soils of the Everglades --
23       A.    Certainly.
24       Q.    -- in what you are referring to as a
25   cultural eutrophication impact area?

                                                 87

 1       A.    Yes, phosphorous content per unit weight.
 2       Q.    Anything else?
 3       A.    The metabolism that is associated with the
 4   nutrient increases.
 5       Q.    Did you say metabolism?  What would that
 6   be?
 7       A.    The activity of heterotrophic
 8   microorganisms.
 9       Q.    Anything else?
10       A.    No, but that brings with it a whole range
11   of effects, that's not just a single effect.
12       Q.    What would that range of effects be?
13       A.    In the extreme it's methane production,
14   hydrogen sulfide production.
15       Q.    Are there any effects prior to that extreme
16   of methane production and hydrogen sulfide
17   production?
18       A.    Yes.
19       Q.    What are they?
20       A.    Increased microbial activity and declining
21   oxygen concentrations.
22       Q.    Anything else?
23       A.    No.
24       Q.    Other than these impacts or changes to the
25   soils, and the vegetation change that we discussed

                                                 88

 1   earlier, are there any other changes or impacts from
 2   the cultural eutrophication process south of the
 3   S-12s?
 4       A.    That's a pretty wide sweeping question.
 5   Can you refine it a little bit so that I can deal
 6   with it?
 7       Q.    Okay.  We have eliminated -- we discussed
 8   vegetative changes caused by cultural eutrophication
 9   south of the S-12s.
10             Now we discussed what it impacted upon, the
11   soil of the Everglades south of S-12s.
12             Are there any other areas that are impacted
13   as a result of the cultural eutrophication?
14       A.    There are huge amounts of things that
15   happen.  It's very difficult to refine that into a
16   simple sentence, but the diversity of the periphyton
17   is profoundly reduced.  As a consequence, the entire
18   food chain is dependent on it.
19       Q.    There is a change in periphyton diversity,
20   and that has an impact upon the food chain?
21       A.    Yes.
22       Q.    Anything else?
23       A.    That's what makes the Everglades.  The
24   Everglades is a consequence of changes in periphyton
25   production.  Most of the food changes is dependent on

                                                 89

 1   healthy periphyton production.
 2             So when you say anything else, I could go
 3   on for the rest of the day.  Don't under estimate.
 4   When I say changes in periphyton production, don't
 5   just say anything else, because it's really
 6   everything.
 7       Q.    We are trying to narrow it down more and
 8   more?  We just started with a broad statement,
 9   cultural eutrophication.  We are trying to break it
10   apart.
11             With regard to changes in periphyton
12   diversity, is that a function of the excess nutrients
13   passing through the S-12s?
14       A.    It would appear so, yes.
15       Q.    On what do you base that opinion?
16       A.    The dosing site was, I think, one bit of
17   evidence.  And patterns that are observed at other
18   enriched sites, other areas in water conservation
19   areas.
20       Q.    Is it your opinion, then, that water at 8
21   to 15 parts per billion will result in a change of
22   periphyton diversity?
23             MS. STARK:  Objection.  You are referring.
24        To 8 to 15 phosphorus rather than oxygen?
25             MR. KOBELINSKI:  That's a good point.

                                                 90

 1        Maybe 8 to 15 of oxygen would, too.  I'll
 2        rephrase the question.
 3   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 4       Q.    Is it your opinion that phosphorous in the
 5   range of 8 to 15 parts per billion in the water
 6   column will have an impact upon periphyton adversity?
 7       A.    Nothing like 200 micrograms per liter
 8   would.
 9       Q.    Okay.  But going back to my question, will
10   phosphorous at levels of 8 to 15 parts per billion in
11   the water column have an impact on the periphyton
12   diversity?
13       A.    Yes.  Did you read the threshold study?
14             MS. STARK:  You answer the questions.  You
15        don't ask them.
16             THE WITNESS:  I can't answer the question
17        simply.  There is not an easy black and white.
18        I think, as I said before, anything less than
19        200 is better than 200.
20             But if you are trying to make a distinction
21        between 8 and 12, why that's pretty tough.  But
22        I think it should be kept in mind that the
23        concentration at the S-12s have always been
24        pretty low.  So it gives us a feel for how we go
25        about ultimately to protect wetlands in general.

                                                 91

 1   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 2       Q.    Have the periphyton in the park, have their
 3   adversity been impacted by the water quality coming
 4   through the S-12s?
 5       A.    Only within a kilometer or so.  Maybe two
 6   or three kilometers.
 7       Q.    On what do you base that opinion?
 8       A.    You could say that all my information
 9   directly or indirectly comes through Ron Jones and
10   Bill Walker, with occasional other reports from
11   district scientists.
12       Q.    Is there a particular study that Ron Jones
13   has done with regard to impacts on periphyton
14   diversity in the park that you are relying upon?
15       A.    Also we should include, of course, the
16   results from the dosing site.  That was an example
17   where on a smaller scale, more controlled scale, one
18   could study diversity, but a number of other people
19   have been looking at periphyton diversity.  It's a
20   big area.  It's not one that I'm intimately
21   associated with.  I just know that periphyton
22   diversity has changed very dramatically with nutrient
23   enrichment.
24       Q.    Did the dosing site, to your recollection,
25   show changes in periphyton diversity at water column

                                                 92

 1   phosphorus levels of 8 to 15 parts per billion?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    That's part of the basis for your opinion?
 4       A.    Part.
 5       Q.    Has hydrology had any impact on the
 6   periphyton diversity in the park?
 7       A.    Yes.  When it's dry, it doesn't grow.
 8       Q.    Anything other than that?
 9       A.    No, I don't think so.
10       Q.    With regard to periphyton, you are not a
11   paraphytologist?  Is that a correct term, para --
12       A.    Periphyton taxonomist.
13       Q.    Thank you.  Periphyton taxonomist?
14       A.    No.  I can look at a microscope and go
15   uh-huh.
16       Q.    What is the basis of your statement that
17   changes in periphyton diversity in the park have
18   impacted the food chain?
19       A.    Say that question again.
20       Q.    What was the basis for your opinion that
21   changes in periphyton diversity have impacted the
22   food chain?
23       A.    The periphyton is the principal energy
24   source for the invertebrates that are an important
25   energy source for bird life and small fishes.  These

                                                 93

 1   are the critical elements of the Everglades food
 2   chain.  This has been discussed in SWIM Plan
 3   documents.
 4             You look across the Everglades, you see
 5   trees and grass.  But nothing is eating the trees and
 6   grasses.  So what's fueling the ecosystem is what's
 7   being eaten, which is periphyton.  And so the
 8   microscopic plants is food for the invertebrates, is
 9   food for the bird and small fishes.  Then that's the
10   critical food web of the Everglades.
11       Q.    Is it your understanding that the
12   phosphorous enriched area in the Everglades will have
13   a lower diversity of macro invertebrates?
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    Will it also have smaller population?
16       A.    Macro invertebrates generally, yes.
17       Q.    On what do you base that or where did you
18   receive that understanding?
19       A.    If there is no periphyton production you
20   can't avert anything living on the periphyton.
21   Wading bird numbers are very low in areas where the
22   periphyton has been removed.  So there is probably --
23   I remember seeing some papers and textbooks on them,
24   but I can't cite it for you.  I don't remember the
25   names exactly.

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 1       Q.    With regard to changes in the diversity of
 2   periphyton, is it your understanding that there is a
 3   change in the periphyton or the diatoms?
 4       A.    With eutrophication?
 5       Q.    Yes.
 6       A.    Yes.
 7       Q.    Is it your understanding that the higher
 8   elements of the food changes, the macro invertebrates
 9   and the like will not feed upon the changes, diatoms
10   or periphyton?
11       A.    I think in general any change is usually a
12   change for the worse.  In other words, communities
13   evolve and when particular components are altered,
14   then this is reflected in higher eutrophic levels.
15       Q.    Other than your belief that any change is
16   typically a change for the worse, have you reviewed
17   any study or did you have any data upon which to
18   support the belief that the higher chain -- higher
19   food change, the macro invertebrate, will not eat or
20   digest the changes in periphyton caused by
21   eutrophication?
22             MR. NETTLETON:  Object to the form.
23             THE WITNESS:  I have no way of knowing.
24   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
25       Q.    Is the periphyton diversity impacted by

                                                 95

 1   other water quality parameters other than phosphorous
 2   in the Everglades?
 3       A.    Yes.
 4       Q.    What would those parameters be?
 5       A.    Nitrogen in some cases.
 6       Q.    Anything other than nitrogen and
 7   phosphorous?
 8       A.    Pardon me?
 9       Q.    Anything other than nitrogen and
10   phosphorous?
11       A.    Perhaps if I thought about it.
12       Q.    Do you believe that the cultural
13   eutrophication in the Everglades Protection Area,
14   EPA, had an impact upon the higher eutrophic levels,
15   the vertebrate levels?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    In what manner?
18       A.    You asked me if I believed that it had and
19   I said yes, but I don't profess to be an expert in
20   this area.
21       Q.    Let me ask you this, will you be offering
22   an opinion at the final hearing as to impacts of
23   cultural eutrophication upon the higher eutrophic
24   levels?
25       A.    No.

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 1       Q.    Will you be offering an opinion at the
 2   final hearing as to impact of cultural eutrophication
 3   on the periphyton?
 4       A.    Qualitatively, yes.
 5       Q.    Qualitatively meaning what?
 6       A.    Does it affect it, yes.  It's one of the
 7   consequences of nutrient changes, certainly.
 8       Q.    Have you done any testing out there with
 9   regard to the periphyton?  I'm talking about the
10   entire Everglades Protection Area.
11       A.    No, I haven't.
12       Q.    Have you studied to see what the changes to
13   the periphyton mat are from cultural eutrophication?
14       A.    I know the results of the dosing example,
15   and I know in the enriched area the periphyton is
16   altered.
17       Q.    Altered from what to what?
18       A.    Usually there is less periphyton
19   production, and the diversity has been reduced with
20   nutrient enrichment.
21       Q.    Are there any particular species of
22   periphyton that are reduced or disappear?
23       A.    I don't want to talk about species.
24       Q.    Have you in coming to your opinion that
25   cultural eutrophication has impacted upon the

                                                 97

 1   periphyton had taken into consideration other
 2   factors?
 3             MS. STARK:  Objection to the form of the
 4        question.
 5             THE WITNESS:  I don't know what you mean.
 6             MR. KOBELINSKI:  I withdraw that.
 7   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 8       Q.    Are there other factors that are occurring
 9   that are impacting on the periphyton mat, cultural
10   factors, using "cultural" as you defined it as mat
11   induced?
12       A.    There may be.  I haven't considered it.
13       Q.    Have you considered whether or not the
14   changes in the periphyton mat that you are
15   attributing phosphorus to are influenced or caused by
16   other cultural factors?
17       A.    I don't know.
18       Q.    With regard to changes in the phosphorous
19   content of soils, will you be offering an opinion at
20   the final hearing as to the results in the changes of
21   content?
22       A.    I didn't hear that.
23             MR. KOBELINSKI:  I was speaking very low.
24             At this point, let's break for lunch.
25   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:

                                                 98

 1       Q.    Are you going to be offering an opinion at
 2   trial as to what impact cultural eutrophication have
 3   upon changes in the phosphorous contents of soils?
 4             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
 5        question.  You can answer it.
 6             THE WITNESS:  I don't know what I'll be
 7        testifying on at that point.
 8   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
 9       Q.    Is that part of your area --
10       A.    Soils certainly are altered when you add
11   phosphorous to a system.
12             MR. KOBELINSKI:  We will go to lunch on
13        that thought.
14                  (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken,
15                  after which the following proceedings
16                  were had:)
17   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
18       Q.    Dr. Lean, I guess we will continue on.  I
19   would remind you you are under oath.
20             We were talking before we broke for lunch
21   about the various impacts or changes that occur as a
22   result of cultural eutrophication.  We were speaking
23   of that specifically in the context of Everglades
24   National Park.
25             If I understand what you had said

                                                 99

 1   correctly, you would not be testifying about cultural
 2   eutrophication impacts upon the food chain and upper
 3   vertebrates; is that correct?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    With regard to changes in periphyton
 6   diversity, as I understood it, I believe, the phrase,
 7   you were just going to make a qualitative statement
 8   that there were impacts to the periphyton mat or the
 9   diversity of the periphyton species, but you were not
10   going to be discussing that in depth and what the
11   other impacts or causes for those chains were; is
12   that correct?
13       A.    Correct.
14       Q.    To appreciate the reason I'm doing it, so --
15   to help narrow this, we are trying to keep you within
16   two days.  I'm not here on a fishing trip.  Actually,
17   I'm trying to avoid just that.
18             With regard to the processes or changes
19   brought about by cultural eutrophication, which of
20   those changes or processes do you intend to provide
21   opinions on?
22       A.    Which of what?
23       Q.    Which of the changes or processes that
24   occur as a result of cultural eutrophication will you
25   be providing opinions on?

                                                 100

 1       A.    The changes in the lower eutrophic levels,
 2   periphyton heterotrophic organisms, periphyton
 3   productivity.
 4       Q.    With regard to heterotrophic levels, what
 5   are the heterotrophic levels?
 6       A.    They are bacteria and the organisms that
 7   eat bacteria.
 8       Q.    Are those typically referred to as
 9   microorganisms?
10       A.    They are all microorganisms.  Anything that
11   small of a diameter, say .5 to maybe 100 microns
12   would be a microorganism.
13       Q.    You are actually breaking it down more
14   specifically?
15       A.    Yes.  You see -- okay, you ask the
16   questions.
17       Q.    She's going to say no question's pending.
18             With regard to periphyton activity, was
19   that correct?
20       A.    I think I said periphyton production.
21       Q.    What's your opinion as to the impact of
22   cultural eutrophication upon periphyton
23   production in the Everglades National Park?
24       A.    What is my opinion?
25       Q.    As to the impact of cultural eutrophication

                                                 101

 1   on periphyton production in the Everglades National
 2   Park.
 3       A.    It's changed.
 4       Q.    How so?
 5       A.    The species in abundance has altered,
 6   production is reduced.
 7       Q.    In what area, sir?
 8             MS. STARK:  Object to the form of the
 9        question.
10             THE WITNESS:  What area -- you mean what
11        location?
12   BY MR. KOBELINSKI:
13       Q.    This impact upon periphyton production,
14   what geographic area has it happened or occurred?
15       A.    It occurs wherever phosphorous changes
16   occurred.
17       Q.    Now, with regard to phosphorous changes,
18   are you referring to phosphorous changes in the water
19   phosphorous or soil phosphorous?
20       A.    The two generally follow each other.
21       Q.    Dos one affect the change in periphyton
22   productivity or do both?
23       A.    They are all tied together.
24       Q.    How does soil phosphorous have an impact
25   upon periphyton productivity -- or production, I

                                                 102

 1   guess, is the term?
 2       A.    As I said, they are all tied together.  You
 3   have higher water concentrations, you have higher
 4   soil concentrations.  And both of these are
 5   coincident with changes in periphyton abundance and
 6   productivity.
 7       Q.    Do the periphyton interact with the soil
 8   phosphorous in some manner?
 9       A.    I think that's irrelevant to my answer.
10       Q.    Why would that be irrelevant to your
11   answer?
12       A.    Because you are asking is there a -- are
13   they deriving their nutrients from the water column
14   or from the sediments.  The arrows join all of these
15   groups together, so it's not a question I can answer.
16       Q.    Well, what are the mechanisms, then, of how
17   phosphorus impacts periphyton production?
18       A.    I don't think mechanisms matter.  What
19   matters is the correlation of one to the other.  If
20   you have this, then you have that.
21             And if I could make an analogy, I suppose
22   if you are exposed to a particular toxin and you get
23   sick, you say what's the mechanism of getting sick.
24   The mechanism doesn't matter.  You get sick.  Was it
25   liver failure, was it heart failure.  That doesn't

                                                 103

 1   matter.  The correlation is between a concentration
 2   and a response.
 3       Q.    Is there a particular concentration that
 4   results in a response in the periphyton production?
 5       A.    I wouldn't describe any concentration
 6   level.  I think that's not important to the
 7   discussion.  If you change the concentration you will
 8   get a response.
 9       Q.    Change concentration from what to what?
10       A.    If you change it from an ambient level to a
11   level different from ambient levels.
12       Q.    Any change over what you are referring to
13   as ambient levels will have an impact on periphyton
14   production?
15       A.    It will change periphyton production.
16       Q.    Will it change it adversely?
17       A.    It depends which way you go.  You may be
18   reducing phosphorous, in which case it might be
19   beneficial.  But the answer to the detail question
20   that you are pursuing, I don't think it's known.
21             Each site would be site specific.  I'm
22   talking about general patterns that have been
23   observed by researchers working in many shallow water
24   systems internationally.  There is an integral
25   relationship between phosphorous and periphyton.

                                                 104

 1       Q.    You made the statement that the mechanism
 2   doesn't matter as the correlation.  Is correlation
 3   the equivalent of causation?
 4       A.    No.
 5       Q.    If it's not the equivalent, then how do you
 6   know it's the phosphorous that's resulting in the
 7   impact?
 8       A.    You never do.  If the correlation can
 9   predict a response with a high degree of
10   predictability, then it's a useful one.
11       Q.    Wouldn't knowing the causal mechanisms
12   likewise be useful?
13       A.    Those are words you never use in science.
14   You never really know anything.  You only develop
15   hypotheses and you do experiments to disprove or
16   prove the hypotheses.
17       Q.    Then develop a theory of causation?
18       A.    I never used the word "causation" in
19   anything I have ever published.  Someone would be a
20   fool to try it.
21       Q.    You have opined elevated phosphorous has an
22   impact or has caused changes in periphyton
23   production?
24       A.    I would say that there is a correlation
25   between phosphorous changes and periphyton changes.

                                                 105

 1       Q.    So you would not say that one caused the
 2   other, it's just that there is a high --
 3       A.    I never used the word "cause."
 4       Q.    I believe earlier you had testified -- and
 5   again correct me if I'm wrong or misstating that --
 6   you have not studied the impacts or correlations
 7   between hydrologic changes and periphyton production;
 8   is that correct?
 9       A.    One always considers all of the variables
10   that are impinging on the process.
11       Q.    Have you considered all the variables
12   impinging on the periphyton production in the
13   national park?
14       A.    I haven't, no.
15       Q.    Do you know if anyone has?
16       A.    It has been a very actively researched
17   area.
18       Q.    Are you basing your opinion on any
19   particularly search?
20       A.    No, but probably 35 publications have done
21   that periphyton is related to nutrients.
22       Q.    What 35 publications would those be?
23       A.    I don't know them off hand.
24       Q.    Have you ever read any studies dealing with
25   changes in periphyton productivity with