1 changes is the construction of the Central and 2 South Florida Flood Control District system. 3 This document describes the 4 rationale for the design of that system for 5 the location of levees and location of 6 agricultural areas and water conservation 7 areas. So it's an important document in 8 describing how the system came to be. 9 Q. Did you use the document, of which 10 Exhibit 111 is a portion, in conjunction with 11 your preparation of the map in Exhibit 100, 12 assuming the map in Exhibit 100 was a 13 topographic map? 14 A. Yes, that's the large map that we 15 had laid out on the table yesterday. Yes, 16 this document includes a topographic map. 17 Q. I would like you to turn to Page 7 18 of this Soil Conservation Service report in 19 Exhibit 111. The paragraph that begins at the 20 bottom of Page 7 refers to five maps. 21 Which, if any, of the maps discussed 22 in that paragraph have you relied on in 23 creating the map in Exhibit 100? 24 A. One of the maps described in the 25 sentence which reads, "An index to this map, a 212 1 generalized land-capability map, a map showing 2 the drainage districts and other organizations 3 for water control in the region and in a map 4 showing recommended water-control improvements 5 are printed on one sheet, each on a scale of 6 one inch equals approximately eight miles." 7 And one of those maps contains the 8 topographic information that was used. I am 9 not sure which one. 10 Q. There is a map attached as the last 11 page of Exhibit 111. Does that map on the 12 last page of Exhibit 111 form the basis of any 13 of the work you did in creating the map in 14 Exhibit 100? 15 A. This is not a complete copy of the 16 map. It doesn't show the whole thing, but it 17 appears to be the map that I am referring to. 18 Q. I understood your testimony to be 19 that the description of vegetation contained 20 in this report in Exhibit 111 indicates that 21 sawgrass was not dominant in the area around 22 the S-10 structures historically; is that 23 correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Can you locate, in Exhibit 111, the 213 1 discussion that indicates that sawgrass was 2 not historically dominant in the area of the 3 S-10 structures? 4 A. If the exhibit was complete, I 5 could, but the information appears on the 38 6 maps which are described as issued as 7 accompanying maps, one shows physical land 8 conditions including soil depths, depths of 9 the peat moss soils and capability of the 10 various land types for cropping and other 11 uses. 12 The sheet which describes -- or the 13 sheet which accompanies those -- I am sorry -- 14 it goes on to say this is on a scale of one 15 inch equals one mile and it's printed on 38 16 sheets. 17 Those sheets, if you read the 18 description for those sheets that also 19 accompanies those sheets, provides a key in a 20 numerical code which describes vegetation 21 types. 22 And that code is included on the 23 individual maps which show the area north and 24 south of the S-10 structures in great detail 25 and indicates, if you read the code, what the 214 1 vegetation is in those areas. 2 NOTE: It was here agreed by all 3 parties present that the court reporter is to 4 copy the first and last pages of all exhibits 5 that were marked during the course of the 6 deposition, with the exception of Exhibit 100, 7 a large topographic map which is to be 8 retained by Mr. Garver, and attach those to 9 all copies of the deposition. 10 (A lunch break was here had). 11 MR. GARVER: I would like this next 12 document marked as Larsen Exhibit 112. 13 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 112 14 was here marked for identification purposes by 15 the court reporter). 16 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you 17 have been handed what has been marked as 18 Larsen Exhibit No. 112. Can you identify that 19 exhibit, please. 20 A. This is a declaration of Paul Larsen 21 and comprises some nine pages of typed 22 material. 23 Q. Is this your declaration? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 Q. On the first page there is some 215 1 handwriting on the top and there is a number 2 on the right, 709, and handwriting. That is 3 not your handwriting, is it? 4 A. It's not my handwriting. 5 Q. And you prepared this declaration; 6 is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. The signature on Page 9 is your 9 signature; is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. On the first page in the first 12 paragraph at the bottom of the page, the first 13 sentence states: "I am an environmental 14 engineer with expertise in the environmental 15 factors affecting the Everglades ecosystem." 16 What environmental factors were you 17 referring to in that sentence? 18 A. All environmental factors. 19 Q. I am on the second page, Paragraph 20 2, the last sentence refers to numerous 21 seminars you have attended on wetland policy 22 and water quality in the Everglades ecology. 23 Do you recall any of those seminars 24 specifically? 25 A. Excuse me -- I don't find what you 216 1 are referring to. 2 Q. Page two, the last sentence in 3 Paragraph No. 2 on Page 2, the sentence 4 states: "In addition, I have attended 5 numerous seminars on wetland policy, water 6 quality and Everglades ecology." 7 A. I certainly don't recall all of 8 them, however, I do recall attending 9 Everglades coalition meetings and 10 presentations by various people, either in 11 front of the board of the water management 12 district or at the building of the water 13 management district, but I don't recall 14 specifically a list of such seminars. 15 Q. One of the reasons I was asking is 16 that on your resume', your resume' states that 17 you had attended short courses on wetland 18 policy, water quality and other matters. I 19 just wanted to clarify whether seminar meant 20 the same thing as short courses as you use 21 that term on your resume'? 22 A. It may or it may not. I don't 23 recall. 24 Q. On Page 3 in Paragraph 5, the first 25 few sentences of that paragraph state: "At 217 1 this time I am unable, for several reasons, to 2 offer an opinion evaluating the allegations 3 set forth by the United States. 4 "It appears that the Government's 5 primary allegation is that nutrients from the 6 Everglades agricultural area are the primary 7 cause of ecological damage to the Loxahatchee 8 National Wildlife Refuge and Everglades 9 National Park. 10 "At this time I cannot offer an 11 opinion on the validity of this allegation." 12 Can you now offer an opinion on the 13 validity of the allegations in the sentence 14 that I just read? 15 A. As I mentioned, as you questioned me 16 on the first page, concerning an environmental 17 engineer with expertise in environmental 18 factors affecting the Everglades ecosystem, 19 that expertise is of varying degrees 20 associated with different topics affecting the 21 Everglandes. 22 As an environmental engineer, I have 23 to be able to assimilate a lot of different 24 factors, some of these topics are related to 25 experience that I have had, readings that I 218 1 have had that are related to specific 2 training. 3 It is my opinion, although I am not 4 an expert in detailed mechanisms associated 5 with nutrients and soil uptake of those 6 nutrients, that there are many factors 7 associated with changes in the Loxahatche area 8 and Everglades National Park, and it's my 9 opinion that there are many factors of which 10 nutrients may be one, that are the cause of 11 so-called ecological damage to the Loxahatchee 12 Park and Everglades National Park. 13 Q. I would like you to turn now to Page 14 8 of Exhibit 112. In Paragraph 13 on Page 8 15 you refer to macrofactors and regional 16 macro-factors. What do you mean by the term, 17 "macro-factors"? 18 A. Those macro-factors would be the 19 interrelationship of water quantity and water 20 quality, how they affect areas of concern 21 which, as I understand it, are conservation 22 areas in Everglades National Park. 23 Macro-factors would include an 24 overview of the entire system and some sort of 25 an assessment about what was possible 219 1 concerning efforts to improve ecological 2 conditions in the conservation areas in 3 Everglades National Park tempered by what was 4 required to maintain further populations in 5 the agricultural regions. 6 In my opinion, that big picture, to 7 look at the situation, is necessary in order 8 to protect the public interest which involves 9 many diverse factors and includes all aspects 10 of environmental and social conditions. 11 Q. Do you have an understanding of how 12 the authorization and establishment of 13 Everglades National Park was taken into 14 account in the designing and construction of 15 the federal project? 16 A. It is certainly considered in the 17 initial documents associated with the 18 establishment of the Central and South Florida 19 Flood Control District. As I also mentioned, 20 there has been an evolutionary development of 21 that project. 22 So I am not sure I understand at 23 what point in time you are asking me about. 24 If it's 1948, that's one thing, if it's 1968, 25 that's another, and so forth. 220 1 Q. Has the evolutionary process that 2 you just mentioned included an evolution in 3 the consideration of Everglades National Park 4 in the construction and operation of the 5 federal project by the Corp of Engineers? 6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Will you read that 7 back? 8 (The court reporter here read back 9 the requested material as recorded). 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Can you describe to 12 me, generally, what the evolution in that 13 consideration of Everglades National Park has 14 been. 15 A. Our knowledge of the entire 16 ecosystem of Southeast Florida has expanded 17 greatly since 1948, and I believe that 18 experience in operating the system has been a 19 good teacher, as well. 20 And I think that in that expanding 21 base of knowledge relating to water quantity 22 and water quality, that there is an evolution 23 and improvement in our general ability to 24 operate and consider the system. 25 In terms of providing you with a 221 1 step-by-step of all of those factors off the 2 top of my head in a chronology with dates on 3 it, I couldn't do that at this time. 4 Q. Do I understand you correctly then 5 that part of the evolutionary process has been 6 to address problems as they have come to 7 light? 8 A. The answer, of course, is yes, and, 9 of course, that has to be acknowledged, the 10 fact that the original planning of the system 11 did not accommodate or envision such things as 12 the population explosion in Southeast 13 Florida. 14 So there were things that happened 15 that were not envisioned at the time the 16 system was designed, and I think the Corp of 17 Engineers has wisely adopted a process that 18 allows the design and operation of the system 19 to evolve over time. 20 THE WITNESS: Could we just take a 21 couple of minutes here? 22 MR. GARVER: Sure. 23 (A brief recess was here had). 24 MR. GARVER: I would like this next 25 next one marked as Larsen Exhibit 113. 222 1 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 113 2 was here marked for identification purposes by 3 the court reporter). 4 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you 5 have just been handed what has been marked as 6 Larsen Exhibit 113. Can you identify this 7 document, please. 8 A. This is the front page of a copy of 9 a card from Mr. Bernard Goode, G-o-o-d-e, and 10 it contains a chronology of the Corp of 11 Engineers regulatory program, as stated at the 12 top of the second page. 13 And then this document provides a 14 letter that Mr. Goode wrote to President Bush. 15 And it provides an analysis of litigation 16 memorandums of agreement dated January, 1990. 17 And there is also included a paper 18 on 404 litigation, which is dated 1989, and 19 this provides, also, a curriculum vitae of 20 Mr. Goode, is the last two pages. 21 Q. Have you relied on the document in 22 Exhibit No. 113 in developing and preparing 23 your anticipated testimony in this proceeding? 24 A. No. 25 MR. GARVER: I would like this next 223 1 one marked as Larsen Exhibit 114. 2 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 114 3 was here marked for identification purposes by 4 the court reporter). 5 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you 6 have been handed what's been marked in this 7 deposition as Larsen Exhibit No. 114. Can you 8 identify this exhibit, please. 9 A. I have reviewed the document. 10 Q. Can you please tell me what this 11 document is. 12 A. Well, the last six pages of this 13 document comprise a fax that I sent to 14 a Mr. Jerry Qualls. The other pages in this 15 document are unfamiliar to me. 16 Q. Do you recall why you sent this fax 17 to Mr. Qualls? 18 A. No. And, in fact, right now, I 19 can't remember who Mr. Qualls is. 20 Q. Do you recall a Mr. Qualls who 21 worked with the Duke Wetlands Center? 22 A. I got lost between the question and 23 answer there. I believe you asked me if I 24 knew who Mr. Qualls was and whether he was 25 associated with the Duke Wetlands Center. 224 1 Q. Something like that. 2 A. I don't ever recall meeting 3 Mr. Qualls right now. I can't picture what he 4 looks like. I notice it's area code 919, 5 which I think sounds like it's one of the 6 Carolinas. And apparently I did send this to 7 Mr. Qualls because that's my handwriting on 8 the fax sheet. 9 Q. It appears that you are requesting 10 him to review the materials in the fax here; 11 is that correct? 12 A. It says, "Please review the relative 13 changes on your transects." He may have 14 talked about seeing some changes or 15 observations that he made on certain transects 16 and he wanted to see what I had found 17 earlier. 18 If you notice, this is a couple of 19 years or so -- my report is dated July 21st, 20 1989, and this is February 11th, 1991, so it's 21 like it's a year and a half later. 22 So he may have been able to track -- 23 he may have done some transects and he wanted 24 to see if his transects were different than my 25 transects, but I can't remember any of the 225 1 details of this. 2 Q. The last five pages of Exhibit 114 3 appear to be a preliminary report that you 4 prepared; is that correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Do you recall what your purpose was 7 in preparing this report? 8 A. As we described yesterday, or the 9 day before, this was a vegetation study that I 10 carried out from a helicopter in Conservation 11 Area 2. 12 Q. I would like you to turn to the 13 first page after the title page of this 14 report, which actually has the page No. 5 at 15 the bottom and says Figure 2 at the top. 16 Can you describe to me what is 17 depicted on this page. 18 A. These are helicopter flight lines. 19 Q. And these are the helicopter flight 20 lines that was involved in the vegetation 21 mapping work that you were involved in 22 Conservation Area 2-A that we discussed two 23 days ago; is that right? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Can you explain to me how the survey 226 1 limits line that is depicted on this page were 2 determined. 3 A. I recall that we had two botanists 4 in the back seat and that we attempted to 5 delineate an area beyond which there were 6 essentially no cattails from an area where 7 there were some cattails. 8 I would have to review the report to 9 see what the criteria was. I believe there 10 was a criteria, and it may have been that 11 beyond that line there was less than one 12 percent cattails. It may have been some other 13 criteria. 14 Q. Do the dots which are connected by a 15 line along the survey limits line have any 16 significance? 17 A. They represent loran coordinates. 18 Q. I would like you to turn to the next 19 page of this exhibit which is another figure, 20 Figure 3, labeled, "Vegetation Observations 21 for Transects 5 and 6." 22 It appears that for this species 23 listed in the percent cover, listed for any 24 particular citement of this figure, the 25 percent covers, in most cases, add up to 227 1 greater than 100 percent; is that correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Can you explain to me why this is. 4 A. I was as surprised as you were when 5 the botanists gave me listings of percentages 6 that added up to more than a hundred percent. 7 It was explained to me that this 8 represented overlap in that when the canopy of 9 one species overlayed perhaps and understory 10 species. Under that canopy, then, the 11 percentages of each were not split in half so 12 that you would wind up with a hundred percent. 13 You would list the percent cover as 14 one percent covering the other as a total, 15 thus resulting, in most cases, the percentages 16 that had added up to more than a hundred 17 percent. 18 Q. Looking at Line 5, it appears that 19 there is a point labeled "1," and another 20 point labled "2," and then another point 21 labeled "3." Between the point lableled 1 and 22 the point labeled 2, there are a list of 23 species and then a list of percent covers; is 24 that correct? 25 A. That's correct. 228 1 Q. Does the information represented by 2 the lists of species in the percent cover 3 apply to the entire area between point 1 and 4 point 2? 5 A. Yes, as I described yesterday, the 6 helicopter would start at a point and proceed 7 to a second point, that second point being 8 determined by the botanists' judgment that 9 vegetation associations had changed. 10 The helicopter would then stop, 11 hover, and the botanists would read to me the 12 species that they had observed and their 13 estimates, by eye, of cover by those species. 14 That was then recorded in the field 15 book, along with the loran reading, and then 16 the process continued again. 17 So based on that, that is the 18 estimates of cover and description of 19 vegetation as provided to me by botanists who 20 were directly observing conditions under the 21 helicopter. 22 MR. GARVER: Let's go off the record 23 for a second. 24 (A brief off-the-record discussion 25 was here had). 229 1 (Larsen Deposition Composite Exhibit 2 No. 115 was here marked for identification 3 purposes by the court reporter). 4 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, we are 5 about to start dealing with Larsen Exhibit 6 No. 115, which is a composite exhibit 7 consisting of a series of photographs that 8 begin with Bates No. DPL 0017012 and ending 9 with Bates No. DPL 0017036, and those are 10 continuous. 11 There are some Bates numbers -- 12 there were other photographs with Bates 13 numbers included in that range that I would 14 not be including. 15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Why don't you go 16 ahead and read them into the record then, the 17 actual Bates numbers that apply. 18 MR. GARVER: Okay. The actual Bates 19 numbers are, and I will give you the last five 20 digits, and all of them started with DPL. 21 MR. KOBELINSKI: The last three are 22 all that I think you probably need, right? 23 MR. GARVER: Right -- the last two, 24 in fact. 25 MR. KOBELINSKI: Super. 230 1 MR. GARVER: Beginning with DPL 2 0017012, the next one 13, next one is 15, next 3 one is 16, next one is 17, next one is 20, 4 next one is 21, next one is 23, next one is 5 24, next one is 30, next one is 32, next one 6 is 33, next one is 34, and next one is 35 and 7 the last one is 36. 8 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, I am 9 handing you those photographs. Could you just 10 go through these photographs and explain to me 11 what they depict. 12 A. Photo No. 12 shows Jim Owens and 13 Keith Schnars setting up a GPS receiver over 14 what I believe to be a benchmark, which is on 15 a concrete headwall of structure S-10. 16 Photo No. 13 shows the same set-up 17 with the GPS receiver, as well as a hand-held 18 GPS receiver. It shows Mr. Jim Owens of of 19 Keith and Schnars holding, apparently, a field 20 book in which he is making notes. 21 Photo No. 15 shows an airboat trail 22 that is likely to be in Conservation Area 2-A. 23 Q. Let me just stop you there for a 24 second. Do you know where in 2-A the area 25 depicted in picture 15 is? 231 1 A. Not exactly. 2 Q. Do you know approximately where it 3 is? 4 A. I believe this is in the north end 5 of 2-A, but I don't know for sure. 6 Q. Did you take these photographs? 7 A. I believe these photos were taken 8 with my camera. However, the next photo, 9 which is No. 16, is a picture of me, so, 10 obviously, I didn't take it. I may have taken 11 these others. 12 Q. Can you identify the vegetation 13 that's depicted in No. 15? 14 A. That appears to be cattail. 15 Q. And you obviously did not take the 16 next photo, which is 16, because you are in 17 it? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Can you tell me what is depicted in 20 photo 16. 21 A. This is a photo of me standing in 22 the water holding my hand at what appears to 23 be a high-water mark. 24 Q. Do you know what the location of the 25 area depicted in photo No. 16 is? 232 1 A. I am not exactly sure. However, I 2 think it was in the north end of Conservation 3 Area 2-A. 4 Q. Could you describe to me the 5 vegetation that's depicted in photo No. 16. 6 A. It appears to be a mixture of 7 sawgrass and cattail. This is the sawgrass 8 down here. 9 Q. You are talking about the upper 10 right-hand corner? 11 A. That's correct. And then there is 12 other vegetation shown, as well, which is in 13 the vicinity of my hand on this photo, and I 14 can't identify that. 15 Also there appears to be some willow 16 trees in the background, but I can't be sure. 17 Q. Do you know what the bottom -- just 18 to the left of center on the bottom of the 19 photo there is a some white object with a 20 lattice-type configuration on it. Do you know 21 what that is? 22 A. That's the grasscatcher on the 23 airboat. Photo No. 17 shows a benchmark 24 installation, most probably in Conservation 25 Area 2-A, showing the iron pipe, a stand for 233 1 the tripod which would hold the GPS receiver 2 and a PVC tripod holding a flag, which is a 3 signal to assist in finding the location. 4 Q. Do you know where the area depicted 5 in photo No. 17 is located? 6 A. Not exactly. In general, it was 7 somewhere in the northern portion of 8 Conservation Area 2-A, but I don't know where 9 exactly. 10 Q. Can you describe to me the 11 vegetation that's depicted in photo No. 17. 12 A. This vegetation appears to be a 13 mixture of sawgrass and cattail and open 14 water. It appears that the vegetation is 15 predominantly sawgrass. 16 Q. And the next photo? 17 A. The next photo is photo 20. It also 18 shows one of our benchmarks, our tripod 19 stands, and a PVC signal and flag. 20 Q. And do you know where the area 21 depicted in photo No. 20 is located? 22 A. Somewhere in Conservation Area 2-A. 23 I don't know exactly where. Most probably 24 it's in the northern portion of that 25 conservation area. 234 1 Q. Can you describe to me the 2 vegetation that's depicted in photo No. 20. 3 A. This is a low, sparse stand of 4 sawgrass and a certain amount of open water, 5 but it's generally a sawgrass area. 6 Q. And the next photo? 7 A. This is a gauging station in 8 Conservation Area 2-A, but it does not appear 9 to be gauge 217. It appears to be a different 10 gauge. 11 Q. What number is that? 12 A. This is photo No. 21. I can't 13 recall, at this time, the location of that 14 gauge. 15 Q. Would that also be in the northern 16 portion of Water Conservation Area 2-A? 17 A. It may be. I don't recall which 18 gauge this is, other than it's not based on 19 the configuration of the stand, the gauge that 20 I referred to elsewhere as 217. 21 Q. Can you describe to me the 22 vegetation depicted in photo No. 21. 23 A. This is generally a sawgrass area. 24 The gauge itself is in predominantly open 25 water area with certain floating aquatic 235 1 vegetation that I can't identify for sure. 2 Q. And the next photograph? 3 A. The next photo is No. 23. This is 4 an airboat trail in Conservation Area 2-A. 5 Q. Do you recall where in Conservation 6 Area 2-A this airboat trail depicted photo 7 No. 23 is located? 8 A. In appears to be an airboat trail in 9 the northern portion of Conservation Area 2-A, 10 based completely on recall and no coding or 11 navigation. But this looks like one of the 12 airboat trails in the north end of 2-A. 13 Q. Can you describe to me the 14 vegetation depicted in photo No. 23? 15 A. There is certain aquatic vegetation 16 fringing either side of the canal. There 17 appears to be cattails on the right and left 18 foreground on either side of the canal, and 19 vegetation in the background that I can't 20 identify, except that it looks like there is 21 some willow in the background. 22 Q. And the next photograph? 23 A. This is photo No. 24, and this photo 24 shows the conditions on the south side of the 25 canal which receives water from the S-10 236 1 structures. 2 This photo shows the somewhat high 3 bank along the south side of that canal which 4 appears to be a berm which may be a remnant of 5 the demucking process involved in the 6 construction of the canal. The vegetation on 7 the canal bank is reeds. 8 Q. Did you ever have occasion to do a 9 study of the flow over the bank of the south 10 side of the canal that's depicted in photo 11 No. 24? 12 A. I did not do a study of the flow. I 13 did a reconnaissance study of the elevation of 14 certain points along that berm. 15 Q. What was the purpose of that 16 reconnaissance trip? 17 A. I was with surveyors from Keith and 18 Schnars, and the purpose was to look at the 19 berm, to make certain preliminary measurements 20 and photographs to see if it existed, and to 21 attempt to arrive at a method to carry out 22 subsequent measurements of the height and 23 extent of that berm. 24 Q. Why were you interested in knowing 25 whether that berm existed? 237 1 A. The general assumption by most 2 people, including myself, was that water from 3 the S-10 structures flowed as a sheet from 4 that canal over the land to the south. 5 I, in observing that berm on some 6 occasions, was always curious as to whether or 7 not that berm would not cause water to flow as 8 a sheet across the land to the south. 9 And the canal appeared wide and 10 deep, and by observing things floating in the 11 canal, I could see that it had a substantial 12 velocity inflow to the east. 13 And so, therefore, it was logical to 14 conclude that some portion of the water coming 15 through the S-10 structure never became sheet 16 flow, but, instead, flowed down that canal to 17 the east and then became over-land flow to the 18 south along the north/south levee that 19 comprise the eastern boundary of Conservation 20 Area 2. 21 Q. Do you intend to continue 22 investigating the berm on the south side of 23 the canal depicted in the photo on No. 24? 24 A. I have not, however, Keith and 25 Schnars has made certain profile measurements 238 1 of that berm. 2 Q. Are you familiar with the results of 3 the Keith and Schnars profile of that berm? 4 A. I have seen preliminary plots of 5 that work. 6 Q. And beyond what you just told me 7 with regard to the eastward diversion of water 8 in the canal depicted in photo No. 24, as a 9 result of that berm, have you drawn any 10 conclusions as a result of Keith and Schnars' 11 preliminary plots? 12 A. Based on a very brief review and 13 recall of that, it appears that the berm is 14 one to two feet, or possibly more in some 15 locations, higher than the land that's to the 16 south. 17 Q. What does the existence of that berm 18 increase in elevation over land to the south 19 with respect to flow of the S-10? 20 A. In my opinion, it means that a 21 portion of the water that comes through the 22 S-10 structure did not become sheet flow to 23 the south, but becomes canal flow to the east 24 where it flows into the corner of the 25 northeast corner of Conservation Area 2-A at 239 1 which point it then becomes sheet flow, but I 2 haven't studied the nature of that sheet flow 3 from the corner of that conservation area. 4 Q. Have you done any study of what 5 porportion of the S-10 flow is diverted to 6 sheet flow out of the northeast corner? 7 A. No, I have not. 8 Q. Did the Keith and Schnars study 9 cover the entire length of the berm along the 10 southern side of the canal depicted in photo 11 No. 24? 12 A. I recall that it consisted of 10 or 13 11, maybe 12, individual transects across the 14 berm perpendicular to the axis of the berm. 15 So, to the extent that they were spaced more 16 or less evenly apart, they represent 17 conditions along the entire length of the 18 berm. 19 However, they did not do a profile 20 along the top of the berm parallel to the axis 21 of the berm. 22 Q. What was the distance, or do you 23 know what the distance was between the 24 perpendicular transects Keith and Schnars 25 investigated? 240 1 A. Approximately a half a mile, but I 2 would have to look at their study to recall 3 exactly. 4 Q. How about the next photo? 5 A. This is a photo of a water level 6 staff located in the vicinity of one of the 7 S-10 structures on the downstream side of the 8 structure. I could be wrong, but it looks 9 like a water level staff near S-10-D, but it 10 might be one of the others. That was photo 11 30. 12 Q. And the next photo? 13 A. This is photo 32. This is, again, 14 one of the water level staffs which is near 15 one of the S-10 structures, I can't recall 16 which one. And it is also located on the 17 downstream side of that structure. 18 Q. And the next photo? 19 A. This is photo No. 33 and this shows 20 one of our benchmark tripod stands and PVC 21 signals and flags. I don't recall which one. 22 Q. Do you know where the area depicted 23 in photo 33 is located? 24 A. This is located somewhere in 25 Conservation Area 2-A, but I don't recall 241 1 exactly where. 2 Q. And can you tell me what the 3 vegetation depicted in photo No. 33 is. 4 A. It appears to be an area that's 5 predominantly sawgrass with some cattail, 6 certain aquatic plants, and some vegetation 7 that has been matted down by the airboat. 8 Q. And the next photo? 9 A. This next photo is No. 34, and this 10 again shows one of the our benchmarks and 11 tripod stands and PVC signal standing in an 12 open water area. I can't tell you where this 13 is other than it's somewhere, most likely, in 14 Conservation Area 2-A, and that the vegetation 15 in the foreground is cattail. 16 Q. And the next photo? 17 A. The next photo is No. 35. This 18 again shows one of our benchmarks, tripod 19 stands, PVC signals in an area which is 20 predominantly sparse sawgrass. You can see in 21 the background on the right-hand side an open 22 water slough. 23 This photo was taken somewhere in 24 Conservation Area 2-A, however, I can't locate 25 the site as being in either the northern half 242 1 portion of the conservation area. 2 Q. And the next photo? 3 A. This last photo is labeled No. 36, 4 and again shows one of our benchmarks, tripod 5 stands, and PVC signals and flags in an area 6 which is a sparse sawgrass area with some open 7 water. 8 Q. That's also in Water Conservation 9 Area 2-A? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Do you recall when the photos in 12 Exhibit No. 115 were taken? 13 A. I think they were taken in December 14 or January, but I can't recall. 15 Q. December or January of 1992/1993? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Were they all taken on the same day, 18 to your knowledge? 19 A. To the best of my recollection, they 20 were. 21 Q. Did you take those photographs in 22 conjunction with some project you did? 23 A. I believe I did. 24 MR. GARVER: I would like this to be 25 marked as Larsen Exhibit No. 116. 243 1 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 116 2 was here marked for identification purposes by 3 the court reporter). 4 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you 5 have been handed what's been marked as Larsen 6 Exhibit No. 116. Can you identify this 7 document, please. 8 A. This is titled, "Dissolved Oxygen 9 Budgets in the Everglades WCA-2-A," by Thomas 10 Belanger, B-e-l-a-n-g-e-r, and it's dated 11 August, 1986. 12 Q. Did you rely on this document in 13 preparing your anticipated testimony for the 14 final hearing in this proceeding? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Are the handwritten notes on the 17 first page of Exhibit 116 your handwriting? 18 A. Yes, it is. 19 Q. Have you read the document in 20 Exhibit No. 116? 21 A. It appears that I have in that the 22 notes on the first page refer to different 23 pages in this document. However, my review of 24 this particular document was probably more 25 than a year ago. And so, therefore, I don't 244 1 have an immediate recall of what is contained 2 in it. 3 Q. I would like you to turn to page 4 Roman Numeral VI of the document in Exhibit 5 No. 116. It's the abstract. 6 A. I see page Roman Numeral VI. 7 Q. The first two sentences of the 8 abstract being, "Three areas of Water 9 Conservation Area 2-A in the Florida 10 Everglades were investigated in order to 11 quantify the sources of dissolved oxygen. 12 "The northern section, characterized 13 by nutrients with water and dominated by 14 cattails exhibit different oxygen dynamics 15 than pristine sawgrass stands at intermittant 16 sloughs." 17 Is the second sentence that I just 18 read consistent with the dissolved oxygen work 19 you have conducted in Water Conservation Area 20 2-A? 21 A. I think I indicated the last time we 22 talked about my dissolved oxygen work that I 23 was not commenting on the quality of the data 24 and not interpreting the data. 25 And so, therefore, I haven't made an 245 1 analysis of the information. That analysis 2 will be made by others. 3 Q. But it has not been made yet; is 4 that correct? 5 A. I haven't made it. 6 Q. Have you seen any such analysis? 7 A. No, I have not. 8 Q. So then is it correct, then, that 9 you don't know whether the dissolved oxygen 10 data that you collected are consistent with 11 the second sentence in the section of the 12 abstract that I just read? 13 A. That's correct. I have not analyzed 14 the data as to its relationship with other 15 data. I have only made an analysis of the 16 quality of the information. 17 Q. I would like you to turn to the next 18 page of Exhibit No. 116, which states, 19 "Introduction," at the top of the page, and 20 the first two sentences of the second 21 paragraph on that page reads: "Within the 22 zone of impact the addition of nutrients to 23 wetlands -- 24 A. Excuse me -- I don't see where you 25 are reading. 246 1 Q. The beginning of the second 2 paragraph, "Within the zone of impact the 3 addition of nutrients to the wetlands has 4 markedly changed emergent macrophyte and 5 periphyton plant communities. Sawgrass wet 6 prairies, tree islands, and aquatic sloughs 7 are gradually being replaced by the large 8 uniform stands of cattails." 9 Based on your experience in the 10 Everglades and your review of documents 11 relating to the Everglades, do you agree with 12 the two sentences I just read? 13 A. The only way I can review that is on 14 a sentence-by-sentence or perhaps even a 15 phrase-by-phrase basis. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. The zone of impact is not defined 18 and it states that the additions of nutrients 19 to the wetlands has markedly changed 20 macrophyte and periphyton plant communities, 21 it appears that it concludes that the only 22 reason that macrophyte and periphyton plant 23 communities has changed is due to the single 24 factor of nutrient addition. I disagree with 25 that. I think there are many factors 247 1 associated with that change. 2 Then it goes on and states, 3 "Sawgrass wet prairies, tree islands and 4 aquatic sloughs are gradually being replaced 5 by large uniform stands of cattails." 6 It is my understanding that large 7 portions of areas that he may consider to be 8 within the zone of impact were never sawgrass 9 wet prairies. That area may have included 10 many tree islands which were destroyed by 11 water management practices of the Corp of 12 Engineers and the Water Management District. 13 And the aquatic sloughs in that area 14 may have been seriously perturbed by 15 overdrying and then flooding. So I disagree, 16 for those reasons, with those two sentences. 17 Q. Are you familiar with any areas 18 within the water conservation area or 19 Everglades National Park in which sawgrass wet 20 prairies and tree islands or aquatic sloughs 21 are gradually being replaced by large uniform 22 stands of cattail? 23 A. I am familiar with areas where there 24 are large uniform stands of cattail and that 25 those areas may have been aquatic sloughs and 248 1 tree islands at some point in the past. 2 I am not certain as to the rate at 3 which such conversion may still be proceeding 4 as indicated in that statement, that they are 5 gradually being replaced indicates that it's 6 an ongoing phenomenon, and so I don't know 7 what he means by gradually. 8 Q. Can you tell me all the places in 9 the water conservation areas in Everglades 10 National Park that you have observed large 11 uniform stands of cattail. 12 A. (No response). 13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form 14 of the question to the extent you would have 15 to define what you mean by "large," whether 16 that means the size of this room, which I 17 would guess is approximately 20 by 30 or a 18 smaller or larger area. 19 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) I mean large 20 uniform stands of cattail in the way that you 21 used that term in your last answer when you 22 said you were familiar with large uniform 23 stands of cattail. 24 A. My last answer referred to a 25 situation where the size would be measured in 249 1 many hundreds of feet. So, given that, I am 2 not aware of any such stands in Everglades 3 National Park. 4 However, my only ability to observe 5 such stands would have been from like the 6 Shark River, Shark Valley Tram Tour, or the 7 Pahokee Lookout Station. I haven't made any 8 other such observation trips into the park. 9 There may be large cattail stands 10 there, but, if so, I am not aware of it. 11 There are large cattail stands 12 associated with various canals in Conservation 13 Area 3. 14 There is large cattail stands in 15 southern flooded portions of Conservation 16 Areas 1 and the southern flooded area of 17 Conservation Area 2-A. 18 There is a large cattail stand in 19 the area south of the S-10 structures. 20 In addition, there is a large 21 cattail stand west of the S-9 structure in 22 Conservation Area 3-A. 23 And there may be others that I have 24 overlooked in giving you a verbal list. 25 Q. Mr. Larsen, you included in the 250 1 documents that you produced, in connection 2 with the deposition notice for this 3 deposition, four video tapes. I don't intend 4 to watch those with you, but we have copies of 5 those tapes. 6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are those Bates 7 numbered also, Jeff? 8 MR. GARVER: Yes. 9 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Your tapes contain 10 Bates Nos. DPL 0016988, 0016989, 00016990, and 11 0016991. 12 Can you just identify for me by the 13 labels on these where the videotapes are? 14 A. Bates No. 001266988 is a tape that I 15 made on December 21st, 1992, which shows field 16 and possibly office operations associated with 17 deployment of dissolved oxygen meters. 18 Bates No. 0016989 was taken on 19 December 21st and December 22nd, 1992, and 20 assuming that these labels are the same as the 21 labels that I had on the originals, they 22 depict mainly field and some office operations 23 associated with the Hydrolab dissolved oxygen 24 meters. 25 Q. Was that in Water Conservation Area 251 1 2-A? 2 A. I believe it was. 3 MR. KOBELINSKI: If you don't mind 4 my asking, would it say on the tape in the 5 editorial, if you talked on the tape. 6 THE WITNESS: It may. 7 A. The next tape is Bates No. 0016990, 8 labeled WCA-3-A topo WCA-2-A-S-10. This video 9 shows operations when I was in the field with 10 representatives of Keith and Schnars and 11 describes some of the field operations 12 associated with the topographic survey. 13 The video tape labeled 0016991, if 14 it's labeled properly, is an edited version of 15 material from Bates No. 0016990, and it shows 16 about five minutes of footage associated with 17 the berm south of the S-10 structures. 18 Q. Have you ever shown any of those 19 video tapes at a SAGE meeting or distributed 20 it for viewing by members of the SAGE 21 Committee? 22 A. No, I have not. 23 Q. Did you, at some point, intend to 24 submit any of your video tapes for the SAGE 25 Committee members? 252 1 A. At one point I thought I might, but 2 then I decided not to. 3 MR. GARVER: Off the record. 4 (A brief off-the-record discussion 5 was here had). 6 MR. GARVER: I would ask that these 7 video tapes be marked as a composite exhibit, 8 Larsen Exhibit No. 117. 9 (Larsen Deposition Composite Exhibit 10 No. 117 was here marked for identification 11 purposes by the court reporter). 12 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would note for 13 the record that while we assume these are 14 exact copies of the tapes that were produced 15 by Mr. Larsen, Mr. Larsen hasn't had an 16 opportunity to review them. And, as such, we 17 would just reserve any objections as to 18 whether or not they are an exact and true 19 correct reproduction of the tapes that were 20 provided: 21 If for no other reason, just 22 because, for instance, you could have the 23 tapes in different packages, et cetera. But, 24 again, I don't think there is anything wrong 25 with them, but he hasn't really looked at them 253 1 so that was my comment. 2 MR. GARVER: Do you want to get 3 something on the record with regard to 4 terminating the deposition? 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Mr. Larsen has 6 requested that the deposition be terminated 7 early today, given the fact that he needs to 8 be deposed on another occasion. 9 In any event, as such, he has asked 10 that the deposition be terminated at 3:30 and 11 it's coming up on 3:30 and I understand from 12 Mr. Garver that he is about to go into an 13 entirely new section or new set of documents. 14 It's our understanding that we will 15 be terminating for the day, and that would be 16 my little speech. Let's go off the record for 17 a moment. 18 (A brief off-the-record conversation 19 was here had). 20 MR. KOBELINSKI: The petitioners 21 would also note for the record an objection to 22 the continuation of this deposition beyond the 23 date scheduled. 24 We would note that this deposition 25 is made solely on the basis that the district 254 1 -- that the deposition of Steve Davis has 2 objected to the continuation of the deposition 3 solely on the basis that the deposition went 4 beyond the days noticed. 5 We do not believe that this is the 6 agreement of the parties or that this should 7 be the position taken, however, if the 8 District continues on with this position, we 9 will object to all depostions that go beyond 10 the date that is specified in the notice of 11 deposition. 12 Pending the District's review of 13 that, we will maintain this deposition. If 14 that is withdrawn by the District, we will be 15 withdrawing it from any depositions noted. 16 MR. GARVER: It's the understanding 17 of the United States that there are witnesses 18 for parties represented by both respondent and 19 intervenors and petitioners where 20 follow-up or continued depositons will be 21 necessary, therefore the United States 22 reserves the right to make arguments in 23 opposition to the League's objection at the 24 appropriate time. 25 MR. COUSINS: For the record, the 255 1 District has not been able to ask any 2 questions during this particular deposition, 3 so that is a factor that goes into why this 4 deposition needs to be continued anyway. 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would note, just 6 in response, that Bill Green had argued at the 7 termination of Mr. Davis' deposition, or at 8 the end of it, that he had had no opportunity 9 to ask any questions, but Mr. Nettleton, on 10 behalf of the District still maintained 11 further depositions would not be allowed. 12 MR. GARVER: I would just note -- I 13 am sorry to do this -- but, I would just note 14 that regardless of the outcome of those 15 objections in other depositions, there was a 16 special circumstances connected with this 17 deposition in that unanticipated weather 18 conditions necessitated a one-day delay in the 19 beginning of this deposition. 20 (The deposition was here concluded). 21 22 23 24 25 256 1 2 ______________________________ 3 PAUL LARSEN 4 5 6 7 8 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 9 ) ss. 10 COUNTY OF DADE ) 11 12 13 14 15 Subscribed and sworn to before me 16 17 this______day of______________, 1993. 18 19 20 21 _________________________________ 22 Notary Public, State of Florida 23 24 My commission expires_____________. 25 257 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 State of Florida ) 3 ) ss. 4 County of Dade ) 5 6 I, Phil Berglan, a Notary Public 7 within and for the State of Florida, do 8 certify that there came before me, Paul 9 Larsen, persuant to notice at the offices of 10 Jack Besoner & Associates, Museum Tower, PH 11 II, Suite 2900 150 West Flagler Street, Miami, 12 Florida, 33130, that he was examined and his 13 examination reduced to writing in stenotypy 14 and that such examination has been correctly 15 transcribed under my supervision by computer, 16 and is fully and accurately set forth in the 17 preceding pages; and that said statement was 18 taken on the day and at the place in that 19 behalf aforesaid. 20 21 22 And said deposition is herewith 23 returned. 24 25 258 1 I do further certify that I am not 2 counsel, attorney or relative of either party, 3 or clerk or stenographer of either party or of 4 the attorney of either party, or likewise 5 interested in the event of this suit. 6 7 8 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereinto 9 set my hand and affixed my seal at my office 10 in Miami, Florida, Dade County, Florida, this 11 25th day of March, 1993. 12 13 14 15 Notary Public, State of Florida 16 My commission expires 11-7-93 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25