1 changes is the construction of the Central and

2 South Florida Flood Control District system.

3 This document describes the

4 rationale for the design of that system for

5 the location of levees and location of

6 agricultural areas and water conservation

7 areas. So it's an important document in

8 describing how the system came to be.

9 Q. Did you use the document, of which

10 Exhibit 111 is a portion, in conjunction with

11 your preparation of the map in Exhibit 100,

12 assuming the map in Exhibit 100 was a

13 topographic map?

14 A. Yes, that's the large map that we

15 had laid out on the table yesterday. Yes,

16 this document includes a topographic map.

17 Q. I would like you to turn to Page 7

18 of this Soil Conservation Service report in

19 Exhibit 111. The paragraph that begins at the

20 bottom of Page 7 refers to five maps.

21 Which, if any, of the maps discussed

22 in that paragraph have you relied on in

23 creating the map in Exhibit 100?

24 A. One of the maps described in the

25 sentence which reads, "An index to this map, a

212

1 generalized land-capability map, a map showing

2 the drainage districts and other organizations

3 for water control in the region and in a map

4 showing recommended water-control improvements

5 are printed on one sheet, each on a scale of

6 one inch equals approximately eight miles."

7 And one of those maps contains the

8 topographic information that was used. I am

9 not sure which one.

10 Q. There is a map attached as the last

11 page of Exhibit 111. Does that map on the

12 last page of Exhibit 111 form the basis of any

13 of the work you did in creating the map in

14 Exhibit 100?

15 A. This is not a complete copy of the

16 map. It doesn't show the whole thing, but it

17 appears to be the map that I am referring to.

18 Q. I understood your testimony to be

19 that the description of vegetation contained

20 in this report in Exhibit 111 indicates that

21 sawgrass was not dominant in the area around

22 the S-10 structures historically; is that

23 correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Can you locate, in Exhibit 111, the

213

1 discussion that indicates that sawgrass was

2 not historically dominant in the area of the

3 S-10 structures?

4 A. If the exhibit was complete, I

5 could, but the information appears on the 38

6 maps which are described as issued as

7 accompanying maps, one shows physical land

8 conditions including soil depths, depths of

9 the peat moss soils and capability of the

10 various land types for cropping and other

11 uses.

12 The sheet which describes -- or the

13 sheet which accompanies those -- I am sorry --

14 it goes on to say this is on a scale of one

15 inch equals one mile and it's printed on 38

16 sheets.

17 Those sheets, if you read the

18 description for those sheets that also

19 accompanies those sheets, provides a key in a

20 numerical code which describes vegetation

21 types.

22 And that code is included on the

23 individual maps which show the area north and

24 south of the S-10 structures in great detail

25 and indicates, if you read the code, what the

214

1 vegetation is in those areas.

2 NOTE: It was here agreed by all

3 parties present that the court reporter is to

4 copy the first and last pages of all exhibits

5 that were marked during the course of the

6 deposition, with the exception of Exhibit 100,

7 a large topographic map which is to be

8 retained by Mr. Garver, and attach those to

9 all copies of the deposition.

10 (A lunch break was here had).

11 MR. GARVER: I would like this next

12 document marked as Larsen Exhibit 112.

13 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 112

14 was here marked for identification purposes by

15 the court reporter).

16 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you

17 have been handed what has been marked as

18 Larsen Exhibit No. 112. Can you identify that

19 exhibit, please.

20 A. This is a declaration of Paul Larsen

21 and comprises some nine pages of typed

22 material.

23 Q. Is this your declaration?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. On the first page there is some

215

1 handwriting on the top and there is a number

2 on the right, 709, and handwriting. That is

3 not your handwriting, is it?

4 A. It's not my handwriting.

5 Q. And you prepared this declaration;

6 is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. The signature on Page 9 is your

9 signature; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. On the first page in the first

12 paragraph at the bottom of the page, the first

13 sentence states: "I am an environmental

14 engineer with expertise in the environmental

15 factors affecting the Everglades ecosystem."

16 What environmental factors were you

17 referring to in that sentence?

18 A. All environmental factors.

19 Q. I am on the second page, Paragraph

20 2, the last sentence refers to numerous

21 seminars you have attended on wetland policy

22 and water quality in the Everglades ecology.

23 Do you recall any of those seminars

24 specifically?

25 A. Excuse me -- I don't find what you

216

1 are referring to.

2 Q. Page two, the last sentence in

3 Paragraph No. 2 on Page 2, the sentence

4 states: "In addition, I have attended

5 numerous seminars on wetland policy, water

6 quality and Everglades ecology."

7 A. I certainly don't recall all of

8 them, however, I do recall attending

9 Everglades coalition meetings and

10 presentations by various people, either in

11 front of the board of the water management

12 district or at the building of the water

13 management district, but I don't recall

14 specifically a list of such seminars.

15 Q. One of the reasons I was asking is

16 that on your resume', your resume' states that

17 you had attended short courses on wetland

18 policy, water quality and other matters. I

19 just wanted to clarify whether seminar meant

20 the same thing as short courses as you use

21 that term on your resume'?

22 A. It may or it may not. I don't

23 recall.

24 Q. On Page 3 in Paragraph 5, the first

25 few sentences of that paragraph state: "At

217

1 this time I am unable, for several reasons, to

2 offer an opinion evaluating the allegations

3 set forth by the United States.

4 "It appears that the Government's

5 primary allegation is that nutrients from the

6 Everglades agricultural area are the primary

7 cause of ecological damage to the Loxahatchee

8 National Wildlife Refuge and Everglades

9 National Park.

10 "At this time I cannot offer an

11 opinion on the validity of this allegation."

12 Can you now offer an opinion on the

13 validity of the allegations in the sentence

14 that I just read?

15 A. As I mentioned, as you questioned me

16 on the first page, concerning an environmental

17 engineer with expertise in environmental

18 factors affecting the Everglades ecosystem,

19 that expertise is of varying degrees

20 associated with different topics affecting the

21 Everglandes.

22 As an environmental engineer, I have

23 to be able to assimilate a lot of different

24 factors, some of these topics are related to

25 experience that I have had, readings that I

218

1 have had that are related to specific

2 training.

3 It is my opinion, although I am not

4 an expert in detailed mechanisms associated

5 with nutrients and soil uptake of those

6 nutrients, that there are many factors

7 associated with changes in the Loxahatche area

8 and Everglades National Park, and it's my

9 opinion that there are many factors of which

10 nutrients may be one, that are the cause of

11 so-called ecological damage to the Loxahatchee

12 Park and Everglades National Park.

13 Q. I would like you to turn now to Page

14 8 of Exhibit 112. In Paragraph 13 on Page 8

15 you refer to macrofactors and regional

16 macro-factors. What do you mean by the term,

17 "macro-factors"?

18 A. Those macro-factors would be the

19 interrelationship of water quantity and water

20 quality, how they affect areas of concern

21 which, as I understand it, are conservation

22 areas in Everglades National Park.

23 Macro-factors would include an

24 overview of the entire system and some sort of

25 an assessment about what was possible

219

1 concerning efforts to improve ecological

2 conditions in the conservation areas in

3 Everglades National Park tempered by what was

4 required to maintain further populations in

5 the agricultural regions.

6 In my opinion, that big picture, to

7 look at the situation, is necessary in order

8 to protect the public interest which involves

9 many diverse factors and includes all aspects

10 of environmental and social conditions.

11 Q. Do you have an understanding of how

12 the authorization and establishment of

13 Everglades National Park was taken into

14 account in the designing and construction of

15 the federal project?

16 A. It is certainly considered in the

17 initial documents associated with the

18 establishment of the Central and South Florida

19 Flood Control District. As I also mentioned,

20 there has been an evolutionary development of

21 that project.

22 So I am not sure I understand at

23 what point in time you are asking me about.

24 If it's 1948, that's one thing, if it's 1968,

25 that's another, and so forth.

220

1 Q. Has the evolutionary process that

2 you just mentioned included an evolution in

3 the consideration of Everglades National Park

4 in the construction and operation of the

5 federal project by the Corp of Engineers?

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Will you read that

7 back?

8 (The court reporter here read back

9 the requested material as recorded).

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Can you describe to

12 me, generally, what the evolution in that

13 consideration of Everglades National Park has

14 been.

15 A. Our knowledge of the entire

16 ecosystem of Southeast Florida has expanded

17 greatly since 1948, and I believe that

18 experience in operating the system has been a

19 good teacher, as well.

20 And I think that in that expanding

21 base of knowledge relating to water quantity

22 and water quality, that there is an evolution

23 and improvement in our general ability to

24 operate and consider the system.

25 In terms of providing you with a

221

1 step-by-step of all of those factors off the

2 top of my head in a chronology with dates on

3 it, I couldn't do that at this time.

4 Q. Do I understand you correctly then

5 that part of the evolutionary process has been

6 to address problems as they have come to

7 light?

8 A. The answer, of course, is yes, and,

9 of course, that has to be acknowledged, the

10 fact that the original planning of the system

11 did not accommodate or envision such things as

12 the population explosion in Southeast

13 Florida.

14 So there were things that happened

15 that were not envisioned at the time the

16 system was designed, and I think the Corp of

17 Engineers has wisely adopted a process that

18 allows the design and operation of the system

19 to evolve over time.

20 THE WITNESS: Could we just take a

21 couple of minutes here?

22 MR. GARVER: Sure.

23 (A brief recess was here had).

24 MR. GARVER: I would like this next

25 next one marked as Larsen Exhibit 113.

222

1 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 113

2 was here marked for identification purposes by

3 the court reporter).

4 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you

5 have just been handed what has been marked as

6 Larsen Exhibit 113. Can you identify this

7 document, please.

8 A. This is the front page of a copy of

9 a card from Mr. Bernard Goode, G-o-o-d-e, and

10 it contains a chronology of the Corp of

11 Engineers regulatory program, as stated at the

12 top of the second page.

13 And then this document provides a

14 letter that Mr. Goode wrote to President Bush.

15 And it provides an analysis of litigation

16 memorandums of agreement dated January, 1990.

17 And there is also included a paper

18 on 404 litigation, which is dated 1989, and

19 this provides, also, a curriculum vitae of

20 Mr. Goode, is the last two pages.

21 Q. Have you relied on the document in

22 Exhibit No. 113 in developing and preparing

23 your anticipated testimony in this proceeding?

24 A. No.

25 MR. GARVER: I would like this next

223

1 one marked as Larsen Exhibit 114.

2 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 114

3 was here marked for identification purposes by

4 the court reporter).

5 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you

6 have been handed what's been marked in this

7 deposition as Larsen Exhibit No. 114. Can you

8 identify this exhibit, please.

9 A. I have reviewed the document.

10 Q. Can you please tell me what this

11 document is.

12 A. Well, the last six pages of this

13 document comprise a fax that I sent to

14 a Mr. Jerry Qualls. The other pages in this

15 document are unfamiliar to me.

16 Q. Do you recall why you sent this fax

17 to Mr. Qualls?

18 A. No. And, in fact, right now, I

19 can't remember who Mr. Qualls is.

20 Q. Do you recall a Mr. Qualls who

21 worked with the Duke Wetlands Center?

22 A. I got lost between the question and

23 answer there. I believe you asked me if I

24 knew who Mr. Qualls was and whether he was

25 associated with the Duke Wetlands Center.

224

1 Q. Something like that.

2 A. I don't ever recall meeting

3 Mr. Qualls right now. I can't picture what he

4 looks like. I notice it's area code 919,

5 which I think sounds like it's one of the

6 Carolinas. And apparently I did send this to

7 Mr. Qualls because that's my handwriting on

8 the fax sheet.

9 Q. It appears that you are requesting

10 him to review the materials in the fax here;

11 is that correct?

12 A. It says, "Please review the relative

13 changes on your transects." He may have

14 talked about seeing some changes or

15 observations that he made on certain transects

16 and he wanted to see what I had found

17 earlier.

18 If you notice, this is a couple of

19 years or so -- my report is dated July 21st,

20 1989, and this is February 11th, 1991, so it's

21 like it's a year and a half later.

22 So he may have been able to track --

23 he may have done some transects and he wanted

24 to see if his transects were different than my

25 transects, but I can't remember any of the

225

1 details of this.

2 Q. The last five pages of Exhibit 114

3 appear to be a preliminary report that you

4 prepared; is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Do you recall what your purpose was

7 in preparing this report?

8 A. As we described yesterday, or the

9 day before, this was a vegetation study that I

10 carried out from a helicopter in Conservation

11 Area 2.

12 Q. I would like you to turn to the

13 first page after the title page of this

14 report, which actually has the page No. 5 at

15 the bottom and says Figure 2 at the top.

16 Can you describe to me what is

17 depicted on this page.

18 A. These are helicopter flight lines.

19 Q. And these are the helicopter flight

20 lines that was involved in the vegetation

21 mapping work that you were involved in

22 Conservation Area 2-A that we discussed two

23 days ago; is that right?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Can you explain to me how the survey

226

1 limits line that is depicted on this page were

2 determined.

3 A. I recall that we had two botanists

4 in the back seat and that we attempted to

5 delineate an area beyond which there were

6 essentially no cattails from an area where

7 there were some cattails.

8 I would have to review the report to

9 see what the criteria was. I believe there

10 was a criteria, and it may have been that

11 beyond that line there was less than one

12 percent cattails. It may have been some other

13 criteria.

14 Q. Do the dots which are connected by a

15 line along the survey limits line have any

16 significance?

17 A. They represent loran coordinates.

18 Q. I would like you to turn to the next

19 page of this exhibit which is another figure,

20 Figure 3, labeled, "Vegetation Observations

21 for Transects 5 and 6."

22 It appears that for this species

23 listed in the percent cover, listed for any

24 particular citement of this figure, the

25 percent covers, in most cases, add up to

227

1 greater than 100 percent; is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Can you explain to me why this is.

4 A. I was as surprised as you were when

5 the botanists gave me listings of percentages

6 that added up to more than a hundred percent.

7 It was explained to me that this

8 represented overlap in that when the canopy of

9 one species overlayed perhaps and understory

10 species. Under that canopy, then, the

11 percentages of each were not split in half so

12 that you would wind up with a hundred percent.

13 You would list the percent cover as

14 one percent covering the other as a total,

15 thus resulting, in most cases, the percentages

16 that had added up to more than a hundred

17 percent.

18 Q. Looking at Line 5, it appears that

19 there is a point labeled "1," and another

20 point labled "2," and then another point

21 labeled "3." Between the point lableled 1 and

22 the point labeled 2, there are a list of

23 species and then a list of percent covers; is

24 that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

228

1 Q. Does the information represented by

2 the lists of species in the percent cover

3 apply to the entire area between point 1 and

4 point 2?

5 A. Yes, as I described yesterday, the

6 helicopter would start at a point and proceed

7 to a second point, that second point being

8 determined by the botanists' judgment that

9 vegetation associations had changed.

10 The helicopter would then stop,

11 hover, and the botanists would read to me the

12 species that they had observed and their

13 estimates, by eye, of cover by those species.

14 That was then recorded in the field

15 book, along with the loran reading, and then

16 the process continued again.

17 So based on that, that is the

18 estimates of cover and description of

19 vegetation as provided to me by botanists who

20 were directly observing conditions under the

21 helicopter.

22 MR. GARVER: Let's go off the record

23 for a second.

24 (A brief off-the-record discussion

25 was here had).

229

1 (Larsen Deposition Composite Exhibit

2 No. 115 was here marked for identification

3 purposes by the court reporter).

4 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, we are

5 about to start dealing with Larsen Exhibit

6 No. 115, which is a composite exhibit

7 consisting of a series of photographs that

8 begin with Bates No. DPL 0017012 and ending

9 with Bates No. DPL 0017036, and those are

10 continuous.

11 There are some Bates numbers --

12 there were other photographs with Bates

13 numbers included in that range that I would

14 not be including.

15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Why don't you go

16 ahead and read them into the record then, the

17 actual Bates numbers that apply.

18 MR. GARVER: Okay. The actual Bates

19 numbers are, and I will give you the last five

20 digits, and all of them started with DPL.

21 MR. KOBELINSKI: The last three are

22 all that I think you probably need, right?

23 MR. GARVER: Right -- the last two,

24 in fact.

25 MR. KOBELINSKI: Super.

230

1 MR. GARVER: Beginning with DPL

2 0017012, the next one 13, next one is 15, next

3 one is 16, next one is 17, next one is 20,

4 next one is 21, next one is 23, next one is

5 24, next one is 30, next one is 32, next one

6 is 33, next one is 34, and next one is 35 and

7 the last one is 36.

8 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, I am

9 handing you those photographs. Could you just

10 go through these photographs and explain to me

11 what they depict.

12 A. Photo No. 12 shows Jim Owens and

13 Keith Schnars setting up a GPS receiver over

14 what I believe to be a benchmark, which is on

15 a concrete headwall of structure S-10.

16 Photo No. 13 shows the same set-up

17 with the GPS receiver, as well as a hand-held

18 GPS receiver. It shows Mr. Jim Owens of of

19 Keith and Schnars holding, apparently, a field

20 book in which he is making notes.

21 Photo No. 15 shows an airboat trail

22 that is likely to be in Conservation Area 2-A.

23 Q. Let me just stop you there for a

24 second. Do you know where in 2-A the area

25 depicted in picture 15 is?

231

1 A. Not exactly.

2 Q. Do you know approximately where it

3 is?

4 A. I believe this is in the north end

5 of 2-A, but I don't know for sure.

6 Q. Did you take these photographs?

7 A. I believe these photos were taken

8 with my camera. However, the next photo,

9 which is No. 16, is a picture of me, so,

10 obviously, I didn't take it. I may have taken

11 these others.

12 Q. Can you identify the vegetation

13 that's depicted in No. 15?

14 A. That appears to be cattail.

15 Q. And you obviously did not take the

16 next photo, which is 16, because you are in

17 it?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Can you tell me what is depicted in

20 photo 16.

21 A. This is a photo of me standing in

22 the water holding my hand at what appears to

23 be a high-water mark.

24 Q. Do you know what the location of the

25 area depicted in photo No. 16 is?

232

1 A. I am not exactly sure. However, I

2 think it was in the north end of Conservation

3 Area 2-A.

4 Q. Could you describe to me the

5 vegetation that's depicted in photo No. 16.

6 A. It appears to be a mixture of

7 sawgrass and cattail. This is the sawgrass

8 down here.

9 Q. You are talking about the upper

10 right-hand corner?

11 A. That's correct. And then there is

12 other vegetation shown, as well, which is in

13 the vicinity of my hand on this photo, and I

14 can't identify that.

15 Also there appears to be some willow

16 trees in the background, but I can't be sure.

17 Q. Do you know what the bottom -- just

18 to the left of center on the bottom of the

19 photo there is a some white object with a

20 lattice-type configuration on it. Do you know

21 what that is?

22 A. That's the grasscatcher on the

23 airboat. Photo No. 17 shows a benchmark

24 installation, most probably in Conservation

25 Area 2-A, showing the iron pipe, a stand for

233

1 the tripod which would hold the GPS receiver

2 and a PVC tripod holding a flag, which is a

3 signal to assist in finding the location.

4 Q. Do you know where the area depicted

5 in photo No. 17 is located?

6 A. Not exactly. In general, it was

7 somewhere in the northern portion of

8 Conservation Area 2-A, but I don't know where

9 exactly.

10 Q. Can you describe to me the

11 vegetation that's depicted in photo No. 17.

12 A. This vegetation appears to be a

13 mixture of sawgrass and cattail and open

14 water. It appears that the vegetation is

15 predominantly sawgrass.

16 Q. And the next photo?

17 A. The next photo is photo 20. It also

18 shows one of our benchmarks, our tripod

19 stands, and a PVC signal and flag.

20 Q. And do you know where the area

21 depicted in photo No. 20 is located?

22 A. Somewhere in Conservation Area 2-A.

23 I don't know exactly where. Most probably

24 it's in the northern portion of that

25 conservation area.

234

1 Q. Can you describe to me the

2 vegetation that's depicted in photo No. 20.

3 A. This is a low, sparse stand of

4 sawgrass and a certain amount of open water,

5 but it's generally a sawgrass area.

6 Q. And the next photo?

7 A. This is a gauging station in

8 Conservation Area 2-A, but it does not appear

9 to be gauge 217. It appears to be a different

10 gauge.

11 Q. What number is that?

12 A. This is photo No. 21. I can't

13 recall, at this time, the location of that

14 gauge.

15 Q. Would that also be in the northern

16 portion of Water Conservation Area 2-A?

17 A. It may be. I don't recall which

18 gauge this is, other than it's not based on

19 the configuration of the stand, the gauge that

20 I referred to elsewhere as 217.

21 Q. Can you describe to me the

22 vegetation depicted in photo No. 21.

23 A. This is generally a sawgrass area.

24 The gauge itself is in predominantly open

25 water area with certain floating aquatic

235

1 vegetation that I can't identify for sure.

2 Q. And the next photograph?

3 A. The next photo is No. 23. This is

4 an airboat trail in Conservation Area 2-A.

5 Q. Do you recall where in Conservation

6 Area 2-A this airboat trail depicted photo

7 No. 23 is located?

8 A. In appears to be an airboat trail in

9 the northern portion of Conservation Area 2-A,

10 based completely on recall and no coding or

11 navigation. But this looks like one of the

12 airboat trails in the north end of 2-A.

13 Q. Can you describe to me the

14 vegetation depicted in photo No. 23?

15 A. There is certain aquatic vegetation

16 fringing either side of the canal. There

17 appears to be cattails on the right and left

18 foreground on either side of the canal, and

19 vegetation in the background that I can't

20 identify, except that it looks like there is

21 some willow in the background.

22 Q. And the next photograph?

23 A. This is photo No. 24, and this photo

24 shows the conditions on the south side of the

25 canal which receives water from the S-10

236

1 structures.

2 This photo shows the somewhat high

3 bank along the south side of that canal which

4 appears to be a berm which may be a remnant of

5 the demucking process involved in the

6 construction of the canal. The vegetation on

7 the canal bank is reeds.

8 Q. Did you ever have occasion to do a

9 study of the flow over the bank of the south

10 side of the canal that's depicted in photo

11 No. 24?

12 A. I did not do a study of the flow. I

13 did a reconnaissance study of the elevation of

14 certain points along that berm.

15 Q. What was the purpose of that

16 reconnaissance trip?

17 A. I was with surveyors from Keith and

18 Schnars, and the purpose was to look at the

19 berm, to make certain preliminary measurements

20 and photographs to see if it existed, and to

21 attempt to arrive at a method to carry out

22 subsequent measurements of the height and

23 extent of that berm.

24 Q. Why were you interested in knowing

25 whether that berm existed?

237

1 A. The general assumption by most

2 people, including myself, was that water from

3 the S-10 structures flowed as a sheet from

4 that canal over the land to the south.

5 I, in observing that berm on some

6 occasions, was always curious as to whether or

7 not that berm would not cause water to flow as

8 a sheet across the land to the south.

9 And the canal appeared wide and

10 deep, and by observing things floating in the

11 canal, I could see that it had a substantial

12 velocity inflow to the east.

13 And so, therefore, it was logical to

14 conclude that some portion of the water coming

15 through the S-10 structure never became sheet

16 flow, but, instead, flowed down that canal to

17 the east and then became over-land flow to the

18 south along the north/south levee that

19 comprise the eastern boundary of Conservation

20 Area 2.

21 Q. Do you intend to continue

22 investigating the berm on the south side of

23 the canal depicted in the photo on No. 24?

24 A. I have not, however, Keith and

25 Schnars has made certain profile measurements

238

1 of that berm.

2 Q. Are you familiar with the results of

3 the Keith and Schnars profile of that berm?

4 A. I have seen preliminary plots of

5 that work.

6 Q. And beyond what you just told me

7 with regard to the eastward diversion of water

8 in the canal depicted in photo No. 24, as a

9 result of that berm, have you drawn any

10 conclusions as a result of Keith and Schnars'

11 preliminary plots?

12 A. Based on a very brief review and

13 recall of that, it appears that the berm is

14 one to two feet, or possibly more in some

15 locations, higher than the land that's to the

16 south.

17 Q. What does the existence of that berm

18 increase in elevation over land to the south

19 with respect to flow of the S-10?

20 A. In my opinion, it means that a

21 portion of the water that comes through the

22 S-10 structure did not become sheet flow to

23 the south, but becomes canal flow to the east

24 where it flows into the corner of the

25 northeast corner of Conservation Area 2-A at

239

1 which point it then becomes sheet flow, but I

2 haven't studied the nature of that sheet flow

3 from the corner of that conservation area.

4 Q. Have you done any study of what

5 porportion of the S-10 flow is diverted to

6 sheet flow out of the northeast corner?

7 A. No, I have not.

8 Q. Did the Keith and Schnars study

9 cover the entire length of the berm along the

10 southern side of the canal depicted in photo

11 No. 24?

12 A. I recall that it consisted of 10 or

13 11, maybe 12, individual transects across the

14 berm perpendicular to the axis of the berm.

15 So, to the extent that they were spaced more

16 or less evenly apart, they represent

17 conditions along the entire length of the

18 berm.

19 However, they did not do a profile

20 along the top of the berm parallel to the axis

21 of the berm.

22 Q. What was the distance, or do you

23 know what the distance was between the

24 perpendicular transects Keith and Schnars

25 investigated?

240

1 A. Approximately a half a mile, but I

2 would have to look at their study to recall

3 exactly.

4 Q. How about the next photo?

5 A. This is a photo of a water level

6 staff located in the vicinity of one of the

7 S-10 structures on the downstream side of the

8 structure. I could be wrong, but it looks

9 like a water level staff near S-10-D, but it

10 might be one of the others. That was photo

11 30.

12 Q. And the next photo?

13 A. This is photo 32. This is, again,

14 one of the water level staffs which is near

15 one of the S-10 structures, I can't recall

16 which one. And it is also located on the

17 downstream side of that structure.

18 Q. And the next photo?

19 A. This is photo No. 33 and this shows

20 one of our benchmark tripod stands and PVC

21 signals and flags. I don't recall which one.

22 Q. Do you know where the area depicted

23 in photo 33 is located?

24 A. This is located somewhere in

25 Conservation Area 2-A, but I don't recall

241

1 exactly where.

2 Q. And can you tell me what the

3 vegetation depicted in photo No. 33 is.

4 A. It appears to be an area that's

5 predominantly sawgrass with some cattail,

6 certain aquatic plants, and some vegetation

7 that has been matted down by the airboat.

8 Q. And the next photo?

9 A. This next photo is No. 34, and this

10 again shows one of the our benchmarks and

11 tripod stands and PVC signal standing in an

12 open water area. I can't tell you where this

13 is other than it's somewhere, most likely, in

14 Conservation Area 2-A, and that the vegetation

15 in the foreground is cattail.

16 Q. And the next photo?

17 A. The next photo is No. 35. This

18 again shows one of our benchmarks, tripod

19 stands, PVC signals in an area which is

20 predominantly sparse sawgrass. You can see in

21 the background on the right-hand side an open

22 water slough.

23 This photo was taken somewhere in

24 Conservation Area 2-A, however, I can't locate

25 the site as being in either the northern half

242

1 portion of the conservation area.

2 Q. And the next photo?

3 A. This last photo is labeled No. 36,

4 and again shows one of our benchmarks, tripod

5 stands, and PVC signals and flags in an area

6 which is a sparse sawgrass area with some open

7 water.

8 Q. That's also in Water Conservation

9 Area 2-A?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Do you recall when the photos in

12 Exhibit No. 115 were taken?

13 A. I think they were taken in December

14 or January, but I can't recall.

15 Q. December or January of 1992/1993?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Were they all taken on the same day,

18 to your knowledge?

19 A. To the best of my recollection, they

20 were.

21 Q. Did you take those photographs in

22 conjunction with some project you did?

23 A. I believe I did.

24 MR. GARVER: I would like this to be

25 marked as Larsen Exhibit No. 116.

243

1 (Larsen Deposition Exhibit No. 116

2 was here marked for identification purposes by

3 the court reporter).

4 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Mr. Larsen, you

5 have been handed what's been marked as Larsen

6 Exhibit No. 116. Can you identify this

7 document, please.

8 A. This is titled, "Dissolved Oxygen

9 Budgets in the Everglades WCA-2-A," by Thomas

10 Belanger, B-e-l-a-n-g-e-r, and it's dated

11 August, 1986.

12 Q. Did you rely on this document in

13 preparing your anticipated testimony for the

14 final hearing in this proceeding?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Are the handwritten notes on the

17 first page of Exhibit 116 your handwriting?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Have you read the document in

20 Exhibit No. 116?

21 A. It appears that I have in that the

22 notes on the first page refer to different

23 pages in this document. However, my review of

24 this particular document was probably more

25 than a year ago. And so, therefore, I don't

244

1 have an immediate recall of what is contained

2 in it.

3 Q. I would like you to turn to page

4 Roman Numeral VI of the document in Exhibit

5 No. 116. It's the abstract.

6 A. I see page Roman Numeral VI.

7 Q. The first two sentences of the

8 abstract being, "Three areas of Water

9 Conservation Area 2-A in the Florida

10 Everglades were investigated in order to

11 quantify the sources of dissolved oxygen.

12 "The northern section, characterized

13 by nutrients with water and dominated by

14 cattails exhibit different oxygen dynamics

15 than pristine sawgrass stands at intermittant

16 sloughs."

17 Is the second sentence that I just

18 read consistent with the dissolved oxygen work

19 you have conducted in Water Conservation Area

20 2-A?

21 A. I think I indicated the last time we

22 talked about my dissolved oxygen work that I

23 was not commenting on the quality of the data

24 and not interpreting the data.

25 And so, therefore, I haven't made an

245

1 analysis of the information. That analysis

2 will be made by others.

3 Q. But it has not been made yet; is

4 that correct?

5 A. I haven't made it.

6 Q. Have you seen any such analysis?

7 A. No, I have not.

8 Q. So then is it correct, then, that

9 you don't know whether the dissolved oxygen

10 data that you collected are consistent with

11 the second sentence in the section of the

12 abstract that I just read?

13 A. That's correct. I have not analyzed

14 the data as to its relationship with other

15 data. I have only made an analysis of the

16 quality of the information.

17 Q. I would like you to turn to the next

18 page of Exhibit No. 116, which states,

19 "Introduction," at the top of the page, and

20 the first two sentences of the second

21 paragraph on that page reads: "Within the

22 zone of impact the addition of nutrients to

23 wetlands --

24 A. Excuse me -- I don't see where you

25 are reading.

246

1 Q. The beginning of the second

2 paragraph, "Within the zone of impact the

3 addition of nutrients to the wetlands has

4 markedly changed emergent macrophyte and

5 periphyton plant communities. Sawgrass wet

6 prairies, tree islands, and aquatic sloughs

7 are gradually being replaced by the large

8 uniform stands of cattails."

9 Based on your experience in the

10 Everglades and your review of documents

11 relating to the Everglades, do you agree with

12 the two sentences I just read?

13 A. The only way I can review that is on

14 a sentence-by-sentence or perhaps even a

15 phrase-by-phrase basis.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. The zone of impact is not defined

18 and it states that the additions of nutrients

19 to the wetlands has markedly changed

20 macrophyte and periphyton plant communities,

21 it appears that it concludes that the only

22 reason that macrophyte and periphyton plant

23 communities has changed is due to the single

24 factor of nutrient addition. I disagree with

25 that. I think there are many factors

247

1 associated with that change.

2 Then it goes on and states,

3 "Sawgrass wet prairies, tree islands and

4 aquatic sloughs are gradually being replaced

5 by large uniform stands of cattails."

6 It is my understanding that large

7 portions of areas that he may consider to be

8 within the zone of impact were never sawgrass

9 wet prairies. That area may have included

10 many tree islands which were destroyed by

11 water management practices of the Corp of

12 Engineers and the Water Management District.

13 And the aquatic sloughs in that area

14 may have been seriously perturbed by

15 overdrying and then flooding. So I disagree,

16 for those reasons, with those two sentences.

17 Q. Are you familiar with any areas

18 within the water conservation area or

19 Everglades National Park in which sawgrass wet

20 prairies and tree islands or aquatic sloughs

21 are gradually being replaced by large uniform

22 stands of cattail?

23 A. I am familiar with areas where there

24 are large uniform stands of cattail and that

25 those areas may have been aquatic sloughs and

248

1 tree islands at some point in the past.

2 I am not certain as to the rate at

3 which such conversion may still be proceeding

4 as indicated in that statement, that they are

5 gradually being replaced indicates that it's

6 an ongoing phenomenon, and so I don't know

7 what he means by gradually.

8 Q. Can you tell me all the places in

9 the water conservation areas in Everglades

10 National Park that you have observed large

11 uniform stands of cattail.

12 A. (No response).

13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Object to the form

14 of the question to the extent you would have

15 to define what you mean by "large," whether

16 that means the size of this room, which I

17 would guess is approximately 20 by 30 or a

18 smaller or larger area.

19 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) I mean large

20 uniform stands of cattail in the way that you

21 used that term in your last answer when you

22 said you were familiar with large uniform

23 stands of cattail.

24 A. My last answer referred to a

25 situation where the size would be measured in

249

1 many hundreds of feet. So, given that, I am

2 not aware of any such stands in Everglades

3 National Park.

4 However, my only ability to observe

5 such stands would have been from like the

6 Shark River, Shark Valley Tram Tour, or the

7 Pahokee Lookout Station. I haven't made any

8 other such observation trips into the park.

9 There may be large cattail stands

10 there, but, if so, I am not aware of it.

11 There are large cattail stands

12 associated with various canals in Conservation

13 Area 3.

14 There is large cattail stands in

15 southern flooded portions of Conservation

16 Areas 1 and the southern flooded area of

17 Conservation Area 2-A.

18 There is a large cattail stand in

19 the area south of the S-10 structures.

20 In addition, there is a large

21 cattail stand west of the S-9 structure in

22 Conservation Area 3-A.

23 And there may be others that I have

24 overlooked in giving you a verbal list.

25 Q. Mr. Larsen, you included in the

250

1 documents that you produced, in connection

2 with the deposition notice for this

3 deposition, four video tapes. I don't intend

4 to watch those with you, but we have copies of

5 those tapes.

6 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are those Bates

7 numbered also, Jeff?

8 MR. GARVER: Yes.

9 Q. (BY MR. GARVER) Your tapes contain

10 Bates Nos. DPL 0016988, 0016989, 00016990, and

11 0016991.

12 Can you just identify for me by the

13 labels on these where the videotapes are?

14 A. Bates No. 001266988 is a tape that I

15 made on December 21st, 1992, which shows field

16 and possibly office operations associated with

17 deployment of dissolved oxygen meters.

18 Bates No. 0016989 was taken on

19 December 21st and December 22nd, 1992, and

20 assuming that these labels are the same as the

21 labels that I had on the originals, they

22 depict mainly field and some office operations

23 associated with the Hydrolab dissolved oxygen

24 meters.

25 Q. Was that in Water Conservation Area

251

1 2-A?

2 A. I believe it was.

3 MR. KOBELINSKI: If you don't mind

4 my asking, would it say on the tape in the

5 editorial, if you talked on the tape.

6 THE WITNESS: It may.

7 A. The next tape is Bates No. 0016990,

8 labeled WCA-3-A topo WCA-2-A-S-10. This video

9 shows operations when I was in the field with

10 representatives of Keith and Schnars and

11 describes some of the field operations

12 associated with the topographic survey.

13 The video tape labeled 0016991, if

14 it's labeled properly, is an edited version of

15 material from Bates No. 0016990, and it shows

16 about five minutes of footage associated with

17 the berm south of the S-10 structures.

18 Q. Have you ever shown any of those

19 video tapes at a SAGE meeting or distributed

20 it for viewing by members of the SAGE

21 Committee?

22 A. No, I have not.

23 Q. Did you, at some point, intend to

24 submit any of your video tapes for the SAGE

25 Committee members?

252

1 A. At one point I thought I might, but

2 then I decided not to.

3 MR. GARVER: Off the record.

4 (A brief off-the-record discussion

5 was here had).

6 MR. GARVER: I would ask that these

7 video tapes be marked as a composite exhibit,

8 Larsen Exhibit No. 117.

9 (Larsen Deposition Composite Exhibit

10 No. 117 was here marked for identification

11 purposes by the court reporter).

12 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would note for

13 the record that while we assume these are

14 exact copies of the tapes that were produced

15 by Mr. Larsen, Mr. Larsen hasn't had an

16 opportunity to review them. And, as such, we

17 would just reserve any objections as to

18 whether or not they are an exact and true

19 correct reproduction of the tapes that were

20 provided:

21 If for no other reason, just

22 because, for instance, you could have the

23 tapes in different packages, et cetera. But,

24 again, I don't think there is anything wrong

25 with them, but he hasn't really looked at them

253

1 so that was my comment.

2 MR. GARVER: Do you want to get

3 something on the record with regard to

4 terminating the deposition?

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Mr. Larsen has

6 requested that the deposition be terminated

7 early today, given the fact that he needs to

8 be deposed on another occasion.

9 In any event, as such, he has asked

10 that the deposition be terminated at 3:30 and

11 it's coming up on 3:30 and I understand from

12 Mr. Garver that he is about to go into an

13 entirely new section or new set of documents.

14 It's our understanding that we will

15 be terminating for the day, and that would be

16 my little speech. Let's go off the record for

17 a moment.

18 (A brief off-the-record conversation

19 was here had).

20 MR. KOBELINSKI: The petitioners

21 would also note for the record an objection to

22 the continuation of this deposition beyond the

23 date scheduled.

24 We would note that this deposition

25 is made solely on the basis that the district

254

1 -- that the deposition of Steve Davis has

2 objected to the continuation of the deposition

3 solely on the basis that the deposition went

4 beyond the days noticed.

5 We do not believe that this is the

6 agreement of the parties or that this should

7 be the position taken, however, if the

8 District continues on with this position, we

9 will object to all depostions that go beyond

10 the date that is specified in the notice of

11 deposition.

12 Pending the District's review of

13 that, we will maintain this deposition. If

14 that is withdrawn by the District, we will be

15 withdrawing it from any depositions noted.

16 MR. GARVER: It's the understanding

17 of the United States that there are witnesses

18 for parties represented by both respondent and

19 intervenors and petitioners where

20 follow-up or continued depositons will be

21 necessary, therefore the United States

22 reserves the right to make arguments in

23 opposition to the League's objection at the

24 appropriate time.

25 MR. COUSINS: For the record, the

255

1 District has not been able to ask any

2 questions during this particular deposition,

3 so that is a factor that goes into why this

4 deposition needs to be continued anyway.

5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I would note, just

6 in response, that Bill Green had argued at the

7 termination of Mr. Davis' deposition, or at

8 the end of it, that he had had no opportunity

9 to ask any questions, but Mr. Nettleton, on

10 behalf of the District still maintained

11 further depositions would not be allowed.

12 MR. GARVER: I would just note -- I

13 am sorry to do this -- but, I would just note

14 that regardless of the outcome of those

15 objections in other depositions, there was a

16 special circumstances connected with this

17 deposition in that unanticipated weather

18 conditions necessitated a one-day delay in the

19 beginning of this deposition.

20 (The deposition was here concluded).

256

2 ______________________________

3 PAUL LARSEN

8 STATE OF FLORIDA )

9 ) ss.

10 COUNTY OF DADE )

15 Subscribed and sworn to before me

17 this______day of______________, 1993.

21 _________________________________

22 Notary Public, State of Florida

24 My commission expires_____________.

257

1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2 State of Florida )

3 ) ss.

4 County of Dade )

6 I, Phil Berglan, a Notary Public

7 within and for the State of Florida, do

8 certify that there came before me, Paul

9 Larsen, persuant to notice at the offices of

10 Jack Besoner & Associates, Museum Tower, PH

11 II, Suite 2900 150 West Flagler Street, Miami,

12 Florida, 33130, that he was examined and his

13 examination reduced to writing in stenotypy

14 and that such examination has been correctly

15 transcribed under my supervision by computer,

16 and is fully and accurately set forth in the

17 preceding pages; and that said statement was

18 taken on the day and at the place in that

19 behalf aforesaid.

22 And said deposition is herewith

23 returned.

258

1 I do further certify that I am not

2 counsel, attorney or relative of either party,

3 or clerk or stenographer of either party or of

4 the attorney of either party, or likewise

5 interested in the event of this suit.

8 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereinto

9 set my hand and affixed my seal at my office

10 in Miami, Florida, Dade County, Florida, this

11 25th day of March, 1993.

15 Notary Public, State of Florida

16 My commission expires 11-7-93