1              DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
           DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
 2 
   
 3                CASE NOS. 92-3038
                            92-3039
 4                          92-3040
   
 5   SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF  )
     FLORIDA, et al.,                   )
 6                                      )
                      PETITIONERS,      )
 7                                      )
          v.                            )
 8                                      )
     SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT     )
 9   DISTRICT,                          )
                                        )
10                   RESPONDENT,        )
                                        )
11   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et al.,  )
                                        )
12                   INTERVENORS.       )
     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
13 
   
14                         150 West Flagler Street
                           Miami, Florida
15                         March 16, 1993
                           9:00 a.m.
16 
   
17 
                   DEPOSITION OF PAUL LARSEN
18 
   
19 
   
20             Taken before JACKIE JOHNSON, Professional
21   Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of
22   Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of Taking
23   Deposition filed in the above cause.
24                      - - - - - - -
25 

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 1 

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 1                    APPEARANCES
   
 2 
      ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS
 3 
           PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK
 4         Two South Biscayne Boulevard
           One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636
 5         Miami, Florida  33131
           BY:  Mark Kobelinkski, ESQ.
 6 
      ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT
 7 
           U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
 8         ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION
           P.O. Box  663
 9         Washington, D.C. 20044
           BY:  Geoffrey Garver, ESQ.
10 
       ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS
11 
           POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH & KAUFMAN, LTD.
12         4000 International Place
           100 S.E. Second Street
13         Miami, Florida  33131
           BY:  Patrick Cousins, ESQ.
14 

                                                 Page 3

 1                      INDEX
 2  Witness        Direct   Cross   Redirect   Recross
 3  PAUL LARSEN
 4    By Mr. Garver  3
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8                       EXHIBITS
 9                    NUMBER       PAGE
10                      1           [
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 

                                                 Page 4

 1  Thereupon --
 2                     PAUL LARSEN,
 3   was called as a witness and, having been first duly
 4   sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
 5             MR. GARVER:  We're here for the
 6        continuation of the deposition of Paul Larsen
 7        which commenced on October 15, 1992 and recessed
 8        on October 16, 1992.
 9                DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
10 BY MR. GARVER:
11       Q.    Mr. Larsen, the last time we convened for
12   your deposition, your deposition was limited to your
13   factual testimony regarding the history of the
14   Federal Project, and this deposition contains no such
15   limitation.  I am entitled to your answers regarding
16   all issues relevant to this proceeding, including
17   your anticipated expert testimony; is that consistent
18   with your understanding?
19       A.    Yes, it is.
20       Q.    Mr. Larsen, the witness description that
21   was filed with the Division of Administrative
22   Hearings for the Florida Sugar Cane League, et
23   al. states that the subject matter of your expected
24   testimony is the nature and history of the Central
25   and Southern Florida Flood Control Project (Federal

                                                 Page 5

 1   Project) Everglades hydroperiods, alterations,
 2   dissolved oxygen, sampling, topographic analysis,
 3   water level analysis, geographic and other features
 4   of the Federal Project.  Other areas of testimony may
 5   be added as issues in case develop.
 6             Does that still accurately describe the
 7   subject matter of your expected testimony in this
 8   proceeding?
 9       A.    Yes, it does.
10       Q.    With respect to other areas of testimony
11   that may be added as issues in case develop, have any
12   such additional areas of testimony been added to the
13   subject matter of your expected testimony?
14       A.    I'd have to look at the list again.
15       Q.    I am reading Section B.
16       A.    This is generally correct.  The only other
17   possibility is, I may do some limited description of
18   soils, which is not included on that.
19       Q.    Reading from this same witness description,
20   the substance of your expected testimony is described
21   as follows:  Analysis of alleged violations of DO
22   levels in the Everglades Protection Area, effect of
23   Federal Project design and operation, hydroperiods,
24   topography and water levels in the EPA.
25             Does that still accurately describe the

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 1   substance of your expected testimony?
 2       A.    With respect to dissolved oxygen, I will be
 3   testifying about data and its accuracy and, again,
 4   let me look at the list that you have got.
 5       Q.    I was just reading from Section 6C.
 6       A.    And I would add the word soils to the list
 7   hydroperiods, topography and water levels.
 8       Q.    Mr. Larsen, have you reached your final
 9   opinions with respect to your testimony that's
10   anticipated for final hearing in this proceeding?
11       A.    Yes, I have.
12       Q.    Have you read the second re-notice of your
13   deposition that requested production of documents in
14   addition to the documents you produced last Fall?
15       A.    I have read it.
16       Q.    Have you produced all the documents in your
17   possession that are responsive to the second
18   re-notice?
19       A.    Yes, I believe I have.
20       Q.    Do the documents that you produced include
21   documents related to your anticipated testimony
22   regarding soils?
23       A.    Yes.
24       Q.    Can you briefly describe to me what
25   documents you produced related to your anticipated

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 1   testimony regarding soils?
 2       A.    The 1948 Soil Conservation Service report
 3   as well as references to soils in other documents
 4   that I have produced that are general design
 5   memorandums and mass regulation manuals, etcetera.
 6       Q.    How many times have you been deposed
 7   before?
 8       A.    There's been a number of times.  I would
 9   estimate 30.
10       Q.    When were you first deposed?
11       A.    It was likely to have been in the mid '70's
12   in conjunction with my work on the Marco Island
13   project.
14       Q.    Have you had your deposition taken within
15   the last five years, other than the deposition I took
16   last Fall?
17       A.    I believe I have.
18       Q.    Can you recall specifically any depositions
19   that you had in the last probably five years?
20       A.    Not off the top of my head.
21       Q.    Have you been deposed before with respect
22   to issues relating to the Everglades?
23             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Other than in October,
24        Counsel?
25             MR. GARVER:  Yes.

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 1             THE WITNESS:  I may have been, but I can't
 2        recall them.
 3 BY MR. GARVER:
 4       Q.    Have you ever been an expert witness
 5   before?
 6       A.    Yes.
 7       Q.    How often have you served as an expert
 8   witness?
 9       A.    Possibly ten times.
10       Q.    Other than in connection with this
11   proceeding, in what subject areas have you served as
12   an expert witness?
13       A.    In the subject areas of environmental
14   engineering, dissolved oxygen, and although I can't
15   recall the specific cases, I believe in land use,
16   soil in water contamination, and there may be others
17   that I can't recall.
18       Q.    When did you serve as an expert witness in
19   the subject matter of dissolved oxygen?
20       A.    I was an expert in a Division of
21   Administrative Hearings rule challenge ten or more
22   years ago.
23       Q.    What was the nature of that Division of
24   Administrative Hearing rule challenge?
25       A.    That the State of Florida standard was

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 1   inappropriate.
 2       Q.    The State of Florida water quality standard
 3   for dissolved oxygen; is that correct?
 4       A.    That's correct.
 5       Q.    Did you provide expert testimony in an
 6   evidentiary hearing in that rule challenge?
 7       A.    Yes, I did.
 8       Q.    Can you just briefly describe for me the
 9   substance of your expert testimony?
10       A.    Again, it's been more than ten years, but I
11   recall that I provided a description of the mechanism
12   resulting in dissolved oxygen levels in water.  I
13   believe the testimony focused on dissolved oxygen in
14   estuaries and that I provided a description of the
15   dissolved oxygen mechanisms, but I provided data and
16   an analysis of dissolved oxygen data.
17       Q.    On whose behalf were you acting as an
18   expert witness in that rule challenge?
19       A.    I don't recall specifically, but it was a
20   rule challenge that was related to my work on the
21   Marco Island project.
22       Q.    Do you recall if it was a government entity
23   that you were providing testimony on behalf of?
24       A.    No.  I believe it was a private entity.
25       Q.    But you don't recall specifically what

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 1   entity that was; is that correct?
 2       A.    It was likely to have been the Deltona
 3   Corporation, but I don't recall for sure.
 4       Q.    Were you providing testimony in support of
 5   the proposed dissolved oxygen standard?
 6       A.    No.
 7             I believe I mentioned earlier that our
 8   position was that the standard was inappropriate.
 9       Q.    And for what reasons was it your position
10   that the dissolved oxygen standard was inappropriate?
11       A.    The standard was higher than natural
12   conditions.
13       Q.    Do you recall what mechanisms that relate
14   to dissolved oxygen in water you described in your
15   testimony in that administrative rule challenge?
16       A.    Again, it's been a long time, but the
17   mechanisms deal with the physical aeration process,
18   with biological processes in the water column and
19   with biological and chemical processes in the
20   underlying material, the benthic material.  They
21   relate to the physical stirring of water in the water
22   column, thereby relating to such things as velocity,
23   and it relates to the input of what's most easily
24   described as dead material from beyond the study area
25   itself.  It's generally described as an allochthonous

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 1   input being inputs of material from beyond the study
 2   area as well as what is called autoxithus or the
 3   input of material from biological activity within the
 4   estuary or within the water body.
 5       Q.    Do you recall what biological or chemical
 6   processes specifically you described with respect to
 7   dissolved oxygen in the water in that adminstrative
 8   rule challenge?
 9       A.    All of that was an attempt to describe to
10   the hearing officer that the dissolved oxygen
11   process, a number of factors lead to the level of
12   dissolved oxygen at any given time in a water body.
13       Q.    Specifically, what factors are you
14   referring to?
15       A.    All the ones I mentioned earlier, the
16   reaeration, which is a physical process, the stirring
17   or mixing within the water column, the inputs of live
18   material resulting from biological activity of live
19   material in the water column, dead material that's
20   imported from beyond and basically oxygen demand in
21   the substrate or the benthic material underneath the
22   water column, and all of those integrate and result
23   in a dissolved oxygen regime in the water column at
24   any given time.
25       Q.    Do you recall whether the dissolved oxygen

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 1   standard that was being challenged in that
 2   administrative rule challenge was adopted or not?
 3       A.    I don't recall the outcome.
 4       Q.    Will your testimony in this proceeding
 5   relating to dissolved oxygen in any way refute
 6   dissolved oxygen water quality standards?
 7             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will object to the
 8        form.  I don't know what you mean by refute.
 9 BY MR. GARVER:
10       Q.    Do you understand the question?
11       A.    Not really.
12       Q.    Are you familiar with dissolved oxygen
13   standards that are applicable to the Everglades
14   Protection Area?
15       A.    I haven't reviewed those recently.  So I
16   couldn't give you a recitation of exactly what those
17   standards are at this time.
18       Q.    Will your testimony in this proceeding in
19   any way challenge any dissolved oxygen standards
20   applicable to the Everglades?
21       A.    No.
22       Q.    Can you briefly describe to me what expert
23   witness services you produced in the area of soil and
24   water contamination in previous matters?
25       A.    I recall that it was in conjunction with an

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 1   eminent domain case and that the subject of soil
 2   and/or ground water contamination was a factor in the
 3   evaluation of the property.
 4       Q.    And what, specifically, was the nature of
 5   the expert witness services you provided in that
 6   matter?
 7       A.    I recall and, again, it's nothing that I
 8   have reviewed recently, that it had to do with a
 9   description of the nature of the contamination and
10   what it might cost to remedy the situation.
11       Q.    Do you recall what type of contamination
12   you were dealing with in that matter?
13       A.    I recall that it was contamination
14   associated with an underground storage tank,
15   gasoline, or some sort of petroleum product.
16       Q.    Who employed you as an expert witness in
17   the matter involving soil and water contamination?
18       A.    Again, I recall it was the law firm of
19   Broad & Casell, but I could be mistaken.
20       Q.    Do you recall who the client was?
21       A.    I believe the attorney was Marwin Casell.
22   The client I can't recall.
23       Q.    And when did you provide those expert
24   witness services relating to soil and water
25   contamination?

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 1       A.    I recall that it was more than two years
 2   ago, but the specific date, I don't recall.
 3       Q.    Other than this proceeding, can you tell me
 4   what other clients you provided expert witness
 5   services on behalf of?
 6       A.    The law firm of Bidell, Ditmar, Duvalt,
 7   Pillance and Gentry located in Jacksonville.  The
 8   client was Florida Rock Industries, and that was a
 9   lawsuit in U.S. Claims Court concerning a taking of
10   property pursuant to wetlands regulations.
11             I performed expert testimony on land use
12   for the U.S. Justice Department.  The attorney was
13   Mr. Fred Disheron, and the case was a Claims Court
14   taking case in Everglades City.  The name of the case
15   was something like Gentgen, G-E-N-T-G-E-N.
16             I believe I provided expert testimony for
17   the Law Firm of Earle & Patchen on behalf of South
18   Dade Growers Group and, again, this is off the top of
19   my head, but I think that the issues had to do with
20   water deliveries of the South Florida Water
21   Management District and the potential for flooding.
22             I provided testimony on behalf of a civic
23   association in the West Coast of Florida, Miaka
24   River, something or other concerning the impacts of
25   the Siwer Treatment Land Spreading operation on

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 1   nearby homeowners.  There are others.  I just at the
 2   moment can't recall.
 3       Q.    Can you describe to me the nature of the
 4   expert witness services you provided to on behalf of
 5   the United States Justice Department?
 6       A.    The developer claimed that all economic use
 7   of his property or a substantial portion of that use
 8   had been affected by a denial of a Corps fill permit
 9   to fill wetlands, and my testimony had to do with
10   alternate land uses that would have provided an
11   economic use.
12       Q.    Do you recall what alternate land uses you
13   provided testimony regarding in that proceeding?
14       A.    I developed a plan showing roads linking
15   upland islands and then a high density development on
16   the upland portion of the property.
17       Q.    Do you recall what the outcome was of that
18   case that you provided testimony or expert witness
19   services for the Justice Department?
20       A.    Yeah.
21             I believe the Justice Department prevailed.
22       Q.    Did you testify in court or in an
23   evidentary hearing in that Justice Department case?
24       A.    I recall it was a U.S. Claims Court
25   proceeding.

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 1       Q.    Did you actually provide testimony in court
 2   in that proceeding?
 3       A.    I recall that I did.
 4       Q.    Can you describe to me the nature of the
 5   expert witness services you provided on behalf of the
 6   South Dade Growers regarding South Florida Water
 7   Management District water deliveries?
 8       A.    I have very limited recall of that.  I
 9   remember the room.  I remember that I testified.  I
10   remember that Pete Rhoads also testified in that
11   matter, but I honestly don't recall any of the
12   details.
13       Q.    When did you provide that testimony on
14   behalf of the South Dade Growers?
15       A.    Again, I think it was more than seven years
16   ago.
17       Q.    And when did you provide expert witness
18   services for the United States Justice Department in
19   the Gentgen case?
20       A.    I believe it was around 1980, but the date
21   escapes me.  I don't know.
22       Q.    When did you provide expert witness
23   services on behalf of the civic group you described
24   on the West Coast of Florida?
25       A.    That was perhaps five years ago.

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 1       Q.    Can you describe to me the nature of the
 2   expert witness services you provided in that matter?
 3       A.    I believe that the question dealt with the
 4   long-term uptake of nutrients by grasslands that were
 5   to be irrigated with treated affluent, and that the
 6   homeowners were concerned that the treatment would
 7   not be adequate at all times of the year and that
 8   then the runoff from that facility which was upstream
 9   of their subdivision would affect them in a negative
10   way.
11       Q.    And you were providing services on behalf
12   of those homeowners; is that correct?
13       A.    That's correct.
14       Q.    And what specifically did you do in
15   connection with their concerns?
16       A.    I reviewed the literature associated with
17   the uptake of nutrients.  I provided testimony
18   concerning that literature.  I provided maps of the
19   facility, and I recall that we determined that the
20   basis which the engineering firm that had designed
21   the facility had used was inappropriate.
22       Q.    Were you deposed in that proceeding?
23       A.    I don't recall.  I may have been, but I
24   don't recall.
25       Q.    In that proceeding, did you do any work

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 1   relating to the impact on homeowners of the affluent
 2   or the discharge runoff from the grasslands?
 3       A.    I don't recall the specifics, other than as
 4   I mentioned, we found an error in the work by the
 5   engineering company that had designed the facility.
 6       Q.    Do you recall what that error was?
 7       A.    They had relied on a literature source that
 8   did not exist.
 9       Q.    Do you recall what the outcome of that
10   matter was?
11       A.    I recall that the homeowners were
12   successful.
13       Q.    Do you recall what the engineering firm was
14   in that matter?
15       A.    I recall that it was Reynolds, Smith and
16   Hicks from Jacksonville, but I am not sure.
17       Q.    Mr. Larsen, since the last deposition in
18   October, have you been out into the Everglades
19   Protection Area, any portion of it?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    What parts have you visited since October?
22       A.    Conservation Area 2A and portions of 3A.
23       Q.    How many times have you been to
24   Conservation Area 2A since October?
25       A.    2 or 3.  I don't recall the exact number.

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 1       Q.    And do you recall when you were out in the
 2   Conservation Area 2A since October?
 3       A.    Not exactly.  I don't remember the dates.
 4       Q.    Do you recall roughly when it was?
 5       A.    During December and January.
 6       Q.    What was the purpose of your visits to
 7   Conservation Area 2A?
 8       A.    To organize and coordinate work associated
 9   with topographic surveys and to videotape and observe
10   work associated with dissolved oxygen measurements.
11       Q.    In connection with the topo survey, do you
12   recall what portions of Conservation Area 2A you
13   visited since October?
14       A.    An area generally between Gate S-11C and
15   Gate S-10A along the canal serves discharge waters
16   from all the S-10 structures, except S-10D or S-10E.
17   I think that's up in the northwest corner.  I'd have
18   to check my records to find out exactly where I was,
19   but in general, that's what I recall.
20       Q.    Were you in the interior of Conservation
21   Area 2A between 11C and the S-10's; is that correct?
22       A.    Yes.
23       Q.    And in connection with videotaping
24   dissolved oxygen measurements, what portions of
25   Conservation Area 2A did you visit since October?

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 1       A.    I recall that it was a location near Gauge
 2   217 which is in the middle, essentially, in the
 3   center of Conservation Area 2A.  It's specifically at
 4   a location known as ESP1 and 2, but this is strictly
 5   by recall and not by way of reviewing my records.
 6       Q.    Is the area near Gauge 217 and ESP Station
 7   1 and 2, is that the same location or is that a
 8   different location?
 9       A.    Two different locations, but they are close
10   to each other.
11       Q.    What does ESP stand for?
12       A.    Environmental Services and Permitting.
13       Q.    Do you know how far those two locations
14   that you just mentioned, Gauge 217 and ESP Stations 1
15   and 2 are from the S-10 structures?
16       A.    Six or seven miles, but the location is
17   approximately in the center of Conservation Area 2A.
18       Q.    To get to Gauge 217 and ESP Stations 1 and
19   2, how did you travel?
20       A.    By airboat.
21       Q.    Where did you embark on the airboat?
22       A.    At a launching ramp near S-11C.
23       Q.    Can you describe to me the extent of
24   cattail coverage in the two locations you described
25   as Gauge 217 and ESP Stations 1 and 2?

                                                 Page 21

 1             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Objection as to what time
 2        frame.
 3 BY MR. GARVER:
 4       Q.    In your visit since October?
 5       A.    The vicinity of 217 may have very sparse
 6   cattails.  One of the stations, ESP 1 and 2, is a
 7   large area of cattails surrounded by open water, and
 8   the other one is a large area of sawgrass surrounded
 9   by open water.
10       Q.    How close to each other are those large
11   areas of cattail and large areas of sawgrass that you
12   just mentioned?
13       A.    Approximately a quarter of a mile.
14       Q.    The cattails you observed around 217, are
15   the cattails in that area evenly distributed?
16       A.    They are very sparse, if at all.
17             I recall seeing a few, but the area is not
18   predominantly in any fashion a cattail area.  There
19   may be a few.
20       Q.    I believe in your last deposition you
21   testified that overall you have been to Water
22   Conservation Area 2A between 20 and 30 times; do you
23   recall that?
24       A.    Yes.  I mean, that would sound about right.
25       Q.    And during those 20 to 30 visits, have you

                                                 Page 22

 1   at any time had occasion to visit any portion of Area
 2   2A immediately south of the S-10's going down roughly
 3   10 miles?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    Can you describe to me the vegetation you
 6   observed in that region of Area 2A south of the
 7   S-10's?
 8       A.    There are areas of open water, areas of
 9   dense cattail, areas of dense sawgrass and areas
10   which are associations of species that are not either
11   cattail or sawgrass.
12       Q.    Where have you observed areas of dense
13   cattails in the part of Area 2A south of the S-10's?
14       A.    There's a zone of dense cattails which
15   stretches east and west generally south of the S-10
16   structures, and that zone of cattails varies in width
17   from a few hundred yards to two or three miles.
18       Q.    How far downstream of the S-10's have you
19   observed these large areas of dense cattails?
20       A.    Again, could you repeat that question?
21                  (The question referred to was
22                  thereupon read by the reporter as
23                  above recorded.)
24             THE WITNESS:  Again, in general, two or
25        three miles.

                                                 Page 23

 1 BY MR. GARVER:
 2       Q.    Have you observed cattails beyond that zone
 3   going down two or three miles from the S-10's?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    Can you describe the cattail growth you
 6   have observed beyond that two to three mile zone
 7   downstream of the S-10's?
 8       A.    It becomes less dense and more patchy.
 9       Q.    Is the cattail growth in that zone
10   downstream of that two to three mile zone where you
11   have observed patchy cattail growth, is the cattail
12   in that area uniformally distributed?
13       A.    No.
14       Q.    Are there areas in that zone that's
15   downsteam of the two to three mile zone in which the
16   cattail growth is uniformally distributed?
17             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Over what aerial extent?
18        Also, objection as to form.
19             THE WITNESS:  I think that that's a
20        difficult question to answer, because we are not
21        defining what you mean by, you know, the size of
22        the patch or the density of the cattails.  So,
23        you know, using the general description of the
24        area being patchy, to me, that indicates that
25        it's not uniform.

                                                 Page 24

 1             Perhaps if you looked at an area that was
 2        ten feet by ten feet, the vegetation within that
 3        would be uniform, but if you looked at an area
 4        that was one hundred feet by one hundred feet,
 5        it might not be.  So that's why I am having
 6        difficulty responding to your question.
 7 BY MR. GARVER:
 8       Q.    When you say patchy, what do you mean?
 9       A.    That there are basically patches of
10   cattails and patches of other vegetation.
11       Q.    What do you mean by patch?
12       A.    Clumps, and I haven't done any measurements
13   to define the size of a patch.  So I really can't
14   respond in a scientific way.
15       Q.    Have you made any visual observations of
16   the size of a patch?
17       A.    Yes, I have been there several times.
18       Q.    Based on your visual observations, how
19   large are the patches you're describing?
20             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Objection to the form.
21        As to what vegetation, cattail or the other
22        vegetation the witness has mentioned?
23             MR. GARVER:  He has only mentioned cattail
24        patches, Counsel.
25             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  He stated there's a patch

                                                 Page 25

 1        of cattail and other vegetation.
 2             MR. GARVER:  I am talking about cattail
 3        patches.
 4             THE WITNESS:  Different sizes.  Some of
 5        them may be very small, and others may be large,
 6        but again, I haven't made any specific
 7        measurements of those areas.
 8 BY MR. GARVER:
 9       Q.    When you say very small, what do you mean?
10       A.    Perhaps something like ten feet by ten
11   feet.
12       Q.    And when you say large, what do you mean?
13       A.    Something with dimensions like five or six
14   hundred feet.
15       Q.    Are the cattail patches you're describing
16   patches in which only cattails are growing?
17       A.    No.
18       Q.    Within these patches you're describing, are
19   the cattail plants evenly distributed within the
20   patches?
21       A.    Generally, yes.
22       Q.    What kind of vegetation have you observed
23   between these cattail patches you're describing?
24       A.    Sawgrass, open water willows, vines, and
25   the open water areas may have floating aquatic

                                                 Page 26

 1   plants.
 2       Q.    Have you observed any cattail plants in the
 3   areas between these patches of cattails you
 4   described?
 5       A.    Yes.
 6       Q.    And are the cattails that you have observed
 7   between these cattail patches uniformally
 8   distributed?
 9       A.    No.
10       Q.    Is there a point going downstream from the
11   S-10's after which you no longer see or have seen
12   these cattail patches during your visits to Area 2A?
13             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Object to the form, no
14        definition of what is meant by downstream.
15 BY MR. GARVER:
16       Q.    By downstream, I mean going in the
17   direction of water flow, the general direction of
18   water flow on a two-way side of the S-10's?
19       A.    There's an area in the middle in the center
20   portion of 2A which is relatively free of cattails,
21   but then there's, again, cattails along the southern
22   portion of 2A, and there's cattails along the
23   east/west canal that is located generally in the
24   southern end one-third of 2A.  In addition, there are
25   cattails along the western side of 2A, and I recall a

                                                 Page 27

 1   certain amount of cattails along the eastern side of
 2   2A.
 3             MR. GARVER:  Mr. Kobelinkski, I'd
 4        appreciate if you don't whisper in the witness'
 5        ear while he is answering the question.
 6             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I am sorry.  I thought
 7        you were finished.  Since you were speaking with
 8        Mr. Maffei, I thought you were finished, but
 9        since there was a pause and you started talking
10        to Mr. Maffei, I likewise talked to Mr. Larsen.
11             MR. GARVER:  Please don't presume when I am
12        listening or not listening.
13             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  It has nothing to do with
14        your listening.  I just assumed the witness was
15        done.
16             MR. GARVER:  Can you repeat the question.
17                  (The question referred to was
18                  thereupon read by the reporter as
19                  above recorded.)
20 BY MR. GARVER:
21       Q.    How far downstream of the S-10's have you
22   gone towards the middle of 2A before you stop seeing
23   cattail patches?
24       A.    I can't give you an exact distance, only
25   general distance.  I think that --

                                                 Page 28

 1             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will instruct the
 2        witness not to speculate.
 3             THE WITNESS:  So my answer is, I can't tell
 4        you in, you know, exact distance in miles or
 5        meters.
 6 BY MR. GARVER:
 7       Q.    Do you know approximately how many miles?
 8       A.    I would guess five or six miles.
 9       Q.    During your visits to Area 2A, have you
10   been in any areas in which you observed a sulferous
11   or rotten egg type odor?
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    And in what areas of Area 2A have you
14   detected such a sulferous or rotten egg type odor?
15       A.    Basically, anyplace where I have had or
16   inadvertently disturbed the underlying soil column or
17   where I had occasion to take a soil sample.  The
18   underlying soils seem to be -- although I haven't
19   done any particular study -- anaerobic which would
20   then lead to a smell of sulfer, hydrogen sulfer.
21       Q.    Have you only detected the sulferous or
22   rotten egg type odor when you have disturbed or
23   sampled soils?
24       A.    There may have been times when I was in an
25   area which had very low water when the soils would be

                                                 Page 29

 1   either at the surface or very close to the surface
 2   when similar odors were detected.
 3       Q.    Have you been in any areas in the
 4   Everglades Protection Area where you have not
 5   detected a sulferous or rotten egg type odor when you
 6   have had disturbed or sampled soils?
 7       A.    Yes.
 8       Q.    And in what areas of the Everglades
 9   Protection Area have you not detected sulferous or
10   rotten egg type odor when you have disturbed or
11   sampled soils?
12       A.    Basically, there have been times when I
13   have observed in all the areas that I have been where
14   sometimes you smell a hydrogen sulfide and sometimes
15   you don't.
16       Q.    Are there any areas of the Everglades
17   Protection Area in which, based on your observations
18   and experience in making field trips, it is more
19   common to observe sulferous or rotten egg type odors?
20       A.    I haven't made a study of that QUE sulfer
21   smell phenomena, and these are observations that were
22   not part of the reason I was there.  It was things
23   that I happened to notice.  So I honestly can't
24   answer the question in any scientific fashion.
25       Q.    Can you answer that question in any

                                                 Page 30

 1   fashion?
 2       A.    Could you repeat the question, please?
 3                  (The question referred to was
 4                  thereupon read by the reporter as
 5                  above recorded.)
 6             THE WITNESS:  I don't believe I can answer
 7        the question.
 8 BY MR. GARVER:
 9       Q.    Are you aware of anyone who is doing any
10   study of hydrogen sulfide in soils or waters of the
11   Everglades Protection Area?
12       A.    Not to my knowledge.  There may be.
13       Q.    Since October, what portions of Water
14   Conservation Area 3A have you visited?
15       A.    Only the area in the vicinity of the S-9
16   pump station.
17       Q.    Have you been in the interior of Water
18   Conservation Area 3A?
19       A.    Yes, I have.
20       Q.    Since October you have?
21       A.    Yes.
22       Q.    Where have you been in the interior of
23   Water Conservation Area 3A?
24       A.    In an area which is west of S9 and probably
25   within five miles of S9.

                                                 Page 31

 1       Q.    Can you describe to me the vegetation you
 2   have observed in the portion of Area 3A you have
 3   visited since October?
 4       A.    There's a large area of cattails
 5   immediately west of S9 which becomes less dense as
 6   you are at a distance of one or two miles from S9,
 7   and then it becomes an area of open water sawgrass
 8   and cattails, and then towards the western portion of
 9   the area it becomes predominantly sawgrass and open
10   water.
11       Q.    How far west of the S9 Structure did you go
12   before you reached the area that is predominantly
13   sawgrass and open water?
14       A.    Again, by recall and not looking at a map,
15   it seems it was about two miles.
16       Q.    What was your purpose for going to Area 3A
17   since October?
18       A.    I believe that I videotaped a dissolved
19   oxygen procedure in that location, but I am not sure.
20   I also observed and videotaped some of the procedures
21   associated with topographic mapping.
22       Q.    Is there an ESP sampling station in Water
23   Conservation Area 3A west of S9?
24       A.    Yes, there is.
25       Q.    And where is that sampling station located?

                                                 Page 32

 1       A.    I recall that it's one and-a-half or two
 2   miles west of the S9 Station but, again, I am not
 3   looking at a map.
 4       Q.    Does it have a number associated with it?
 5       A.    I believe that it's called 8, 9 and 10.
 6             THE WITNESS:  Can we take a two minute
 7        break?
 8                  (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
 9                  after which the following proceedings
10                  were had:)
11 BY MR. GARVER:
12       Q.    Mr. Larsen, I believe you testified that
13   when you were at or near Gauge 217 in 2A since
14   October, that the cattail growth in that area was
15   sparse; is that correct?
16             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Object to the
17        mischaracterization.
18             THE WITNESS:  I believe I did say that.
19             MR. GARVER:  How did I mischaracterize
20        that, Mr. Kobelinkski?
21             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Would you read that back.
22                  (The question referred to was
23                  thereupon read by the reporter as
24                  above recorded.)
25             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  In none of your prior

                                                 Page 33

 1        questions as to cattail distribution did you ask
 2        him as to whether this was subsequent to October
 3        of 1992.  You had asked no particular date.  So
 4        to the extent that he did not provide one, I
 5        would say your adding a date to it as a
 6        mischaracterization of the prior testimony.
 7             MR. GARVER:  I guess the Record speaks for
 8        itself.  I don't think you're right.
 9 BY MR. GARVER:
10       Q.    Even though the cattail growth was sparse
11   in the area of 217, were the cattails uniformally
12   distributed in that area when you were there since
13   October?
14       A.    My observation is that there may have been
15   a sprig or tuft a blade or a plant of cattail in the
16   area of 217, but that in the immediate vicinity of
17   217, the cattails were sparse.  They were rare, but
18   they were not necessarily absent.
19       Q.    Mr. Larsen, you obtained your Bachelors of
20   Science and Civil Engineering from the University of
21   Illinois in 1963; is that correct?
22       A.    That's correct.
23       Q.    Can you briefly describe to me the course
24   requirements for your degree in civil engineering?
25       A.    Civil engineers at that time took courses

                                                 Page 34

 1   in hydraulics, hydrology, structures, pavements,
 2   strength of materials, economics and then general
 3   courses in physics, chemistry, math, social sciences.
 4   I think that the courses that I took were typical of
 5   civil engineering curricula at the time.
 6       Q.    If you can recall -- I realize it's been a
 7   while -- but do you recall what was covered in your
 8   course or courses on hydrology?
 9       A.    I think that the courses covered rainfall
10   evaporation, the topic of the hydrologic cycle, which
11   is relationship between rainfall runoff, evaporation
12   transpiration and then how that would translate into
13   stream flow, how it was affected by weather patterns,
14   geographic locations and seasonality.  Beyond that, I
15   don't recall specifically what was included.
16       Q.    While you were obtaining your Bachelors,
17   did you take any courses in ecology?
18       A.    The answer is no.  In 1958 through 1963
19   when I went to school, it was not something that was
20   available.
21       Q.    Did you take any biology courses?
22       A.    No.
23       Q.    Did you take any courses dealing with
24   topography or topographic analysis?
25       A.    Yes.

                                                 Page 35

 1       Q.    What kind of course work did you do
 2   relating to topography or topographic analysis?
 3       A.    I took one year of courses in surveying at
 4   a summer camp for approximately six weeks, which is
 5   located near the town of Black Duck, Minnesota.
 6       Q.    In obtaining your Bachelors, did you do any
 7   course work relating to dissolved oxygen or dissolved
 8   oxygen testing?
 9       A.    Only as it would have been related to
10   courses in sewer treatment facilities.
11       Q.    Did you, in obtaining your Bachelors, do
12   any course work involving vegetation mapping?
13       A.    That would have been included in the
14   mapping portions of my surveying courses creating
15   topographic maps which was included in that
16   curriculum.
17       Q.    Did you, in obtaining your Bachelors, do
18   any course work relating to water level analysis?
19       A.    Yes.  That would have been part of the
20   hydraulics and hydrology curriculum relative to
21   treatment and lake gauging, and it would have been
22   part of the surveying curriculum on hydrography.
23       Q.    And did you, in obtaining your Bachelors,
24   do any course work relating to wetlands?
25       A.    Possibly, as it related to the hydrology

                                                 Page 36

 1   course on rainfall evapotranspiration relationships
 2   and possibly in the surveying course where it related
 3   to mapping of the lake and its surrounding areas.
 4       Q.    And you obtained your Masters in ocean
 5   engineering from the University of Miami in 1971; is
 6   that correct?
 7       A.    That's correct.
 8       Q.    Can you briefly describe to me what course
 9   work requirements were involved in getting your
10   Masters?
11       A.    The course work consisted of a series of
12   what they called core courses in the areas of
13   biologic, geologic, physical and chemical
14   oceanography which were the courses taken by all
15   students at the marine labs, and then there were
16   specific courses related to ocean engineering which
17   related to measurements, mapping and ocean
18   structures.  Again, it's been more than 20 years
19   since I completed that work.  So I don't recall all
20   the courses that I took.
21       Q.    When you say ocean structures, is that
22   structures that are placed in the ocean?
23       A.    Yeah.
24             It could deal with like an oil rig in the
25   ocean or a buoy and its mooring system.

                                                 Page 37

 1       Q.    Did you do any course work in obtaining
 2   your Masters related to ecology?
 3       A.    The core courses which I took in 1968 and
 4   1969 interrelated the effect of land mass on the
 5   estuaries on the ocean and the relationships of
 6   biological, physical, chemical and geological
 7   parameters, but I don't know that the word ecology
 8   was in vogue at the time, but those are some of the
 9   subject matters of ecology.  I don't know that the
10   courses were called ecology courses.
11       Q.    Did you study any particular estuarine
12   systems in obtaining your Masters?
13       A.    After I got my degree, I continued to work
14   at the Rosensteele School for two years as a research
15   associate.  Either before I got my degree or after, I
16   worked on estuarine circulation problems in the
17   Bahamas and also did work for the EPA in conjunction
18   with their Big Cypress study, but I can't remember if
19   that work was done before or after I got my degree.
20       Q.    In obtaining your Masters, did you do any
21   course work involving to topography or topographic
22   analysis?
23       A.    Did you say involving my course work?
24       Q.    Yeah, any course work involving topography
25   or topographic analysis?

                                                 Page 38

 1       A.    I recall that we went over the process of
 2   mapping in the ocean and in estuaries, mapping
 3   topography, and I recall that I may have taught that
 4   segment because of my experience with the coast and
 5   geodetic survey.
 6       Q.    In obtaining your Masters, did you do any
 7   course work involving dissolved oxygen or dissolved
 8   oxygen testing?
 9       A.    I believe it was necessarily covered in the
10   section on physical and chemical oceanography, but I
11   don't have exact recall of how it was covered.
12       Q.    In obtaining your Masters, did you do any
13   course work involving water level analysis?
14       A.    I believe that the topic and the various
15   methods of conducting water level analysis were
16   included in the course content and would have been a
17   part of any discussion of tides or of mapping in
18   estuarine areas.
19       Q.    Did you write a Masters thesis?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    What was the topic of your Masters thesis?
22       A.    As I recall, it was an analysis of various
23   times of ocean buoys.
24       Q.    What was involved in the analysis of ocean
25   buoys you did for your Masters thesis?

                                                 Page 39

 1       A.    I believe that I looked at different shapes
 2   and different materials, and the shapes were oriented
 3   towards providing lift in currents and the materials
 4   looked at the possibility of building them out of
 5   cement materials.
 6       Q.    Did you have any research or teaching
 7   assistantships while get your Masters?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    Can you describe those, please?
10       A.    I recall that I graded papers for a
11   Professor Chang for either a senior level or graduate
12   level course in structural engineering and that I did
13   work for a professor by the name of John Maselle in
14   various estuary projects in the Miami area and
15   possibly in the Bahamas, but again, I am not clear as
16   to what I did before I got my degree and what I did
17   after I got my degree when I was working as a
18   research associate, but I do recall one task which
19   was definitely associated with my assistantship which
20   was for at least one semester grading papers for a
21   course taught by Professor Chang.
22       Q.    When you were obtaining your Bachelors that
23   you received at Illinois, did you have any particular
24   emphasis on -- was there any particular area of civil
25   engineering that you focused on?

                                                 Page 40

 1       A.    Yeah.  Everyone is required to select a
 2   major, and for me it was the field of structures.
 3       Q.    Your resume lists several short courses.  I
 4   just want a brief description of those.
 5             One is a short course you list relating to
 6   wetlands policy; can you describe what that short
 7   course was?
 8       A.    At this moment, I don't recall.
 9       Q.    Do you recall any short courses you took
10   relating to environmental auditing?
11       A.    I have lectured on the topic of
12   environmental auditing, and I may have taken a course
13   at the Treo Center in Gainesville, but I don't recall
14   in specific.
15       Q.    What is environmental auditing?
16       A.    It's a process of assessing the
17   contamination status of land.
18       Q.    Do you recall taking any short courses on
19   water quality?
20       A.    I may have.  I don't recall at this time.
21       Q.    Do you recall any short courses that you
22   have taken since you got your Masters?
23       A.    I may have.  I don't recall the specifics
24   of any one at this time.
25       Q.    You are a licensed professional engineer;

                                                 Page 41

 1   is that correct?
 2       A.    That's correct.
 3       Q.    When did you obtain your professional
 4   engineering license?
 5       A.    1973, I believe.
 6       Q.    What were the requirements to obtain a PE
 7   license in Florida?
 8       A.    I believe it was a completion of an
 9   engineer in training exam, which is typically taken
10   in your senior year of college, completion of a
11   written exam, which was an engineer professional
12   engineers exam.  The most important criteria, as I
13   understand it, is a listing of at least five years of
14   experience in the field of engineering between or
15   prior to taking the engineers written exam.  You had
16   to be able to prove that, and at the time I don't
17   believe there was a requirement for a degree lower.
18   In other words, it was possible to be allowed to take
19   the exam if you could prove sufficient experience in
20   the field of engineering.
21       Q.    Are there any continuing education
22   requirements connected to your professional
23   engineering license?
24       A.    No.
25       Q.    I am going to turn now to your employment

                                                 Page 42

 1   history.
 2             Were you employed after you obtained your
 3   Bachelors and before you commenced your Masters work?
 4       A.    Yes.
 5       Q.    What did you do during that period?
 6       A.    I was accepted into the office or training
 7   program for the Coast and Geodetic Survey, which I
 8   completed, and then I served as a commissioned
 9   officer in the Coast and Geodetic Survey for
10   approximately five years.
11       Q.    What were your responsibilities as a
12   commissioned officer in the Coast and Geodetic
13   Survey?
14       A.    That's easiest to describe in terms of the
15   three basic different jobs that I had.  The first job
16   was as an officer in the crew of a ship called the
17   pioneer, which was a 300-foot vessel with a crew of
18   approximately 120 people.  It was a deep sea
19   oceanographic vessel, and on that vessel I served as
20   a deck officer doing bridge watches as well as
21   working on various other research activities on the
22   vessel.
23             I participated in an oceanographic cruise
24   to the Alucian Islands in Hawaii as well as a six
25   month -- as part of the International Indian Ocean

                                                 Page 43

 1   expedition, I was the navigation officer, meaning
 2   that I was in charge of the ship's navigation.  I
 3   believe I was the supply officer, and I was in charge
 4   of certain survey technicians doing data collection.
 5   There was an effort made to allow the junior officers
 6   to participate in the scientific program on the
 7   vessel as well as learning and gaining experience in
 8   the actual operation of the vessel.
 9             I was sent to the navy diving school and
10   became a navy qualified scuba diver with a one month
11   course in Key West.  I served then as the diving
12   officer on the vessel in charge of two other divers
13   beyond myself.  We had a decompression chamber and
14   full diving capabilities.
15             I could elaborate more, but I don't think
16   you want all this detail.  So on to the next general
17   job where I was transferred to become the executive
18   officer of a two ship two vessel operation where I
19   was the captain of the operation.  I was in charge of
20   one vessel, and I was the captain executive officer
21   of the operation but captain of the second vessel.
22   This operation was called the wire drag boats, the
23   Hillguard and Waynerite, and our job was to locate
24   wrecks up and down the East Coast and the Gulf Coast
25   of the United States.

                                                 Page 44

 1             The general technique was to drag a wire
 2   between the two vessels which would snag on an
 3   underwater obstruction, and then as a diver, I would
 4   go back and swim along the wire until we located what
 5   it was and could identify it.  This involved very
 6   precise navigation, because we were physically
 7   clearing channels for navigation which then would
 8   appear on the charts as an area where essentially the
 9   United States Government guarantee that they wouldn't
10   hit anything.  This is typically used for the
11   entrance channels to major ports.
12             In that operation, I was also in charge of
13   processing the data at the end of the year by
14   returning to the home port in Norfolk, Virginia and
15   working with full-time data processors there so that
16   there was a smooth flow of information which we had
17   collected to the people who would be creating the
18   finished product which would then be incorporated
19   into the charts.
20             After I think approximately a year
21   and-a-half in that operation, I was transferred to a
22   vessel called the Oceanographer, and I was part of
23   the new ship construction staff of that vessel.  By
24   that time, I had been promoted to a full lieutenant,
25   and as I recall, I was initially the fifth officer on

                                                 Page 45

 1   the vessel.
 2             Again, I was the diving officer and in
 3   charge of the survey technicians.  My duties on the
 4   vessel were to, again, spend approximately half of my
 5   time standing bridge watches and approximately half
 6   of my time participating in the scientific program in
 7   the vessel and supervising the technicians as well as
 8   to run the divers program on the vessel.
 9             The ship was commissioned in Jacksonville,
10   and the first shakedown cruise was to observe a solar
11   eclipse off Buenes Aires, and then we came back,
12   finished the vessel and then embarked on a nine month
13   cruise around the world.
14             I returned to Seattle and was then
15   transferred to the last operation, which was to work
16   on a cooperative venture with the Coast Guard to
17   place lightweight buoys in the deep ocean to serve as
18   weather stations and was able to moor one of these
19   lightweight buoys near Bermuda in approximately three
20   miles of water and to have it survive a major storm.
21             I left the Coast Survey in 1968 to go to
22   school at the University of Miami, but then they
23   hired me back as a consultant the next Summer to put
24   out another one of these buoys, again, from a Coast
25   Guard vessel between Greenland and Labrador which

                                                 Page 46

 1   also survived a major storm for about four months.
 2             So I believe your question was to track
 3   what happened in the five years between college and
 4   going back to the University of Miami.
 5       Q.    That sounds like a pretty rich five years.
 6       A.    It was great.
 7       Q.    Can you just briefly describe to me the
 8   research activities that were going on when you were
 9   stationed on the Pioneer in the first part of those
10   five years?
11       A.    Well, the activities were a full spectrum
12   associated with the Indian National Oceanographic
13   expedition of geologic biological oceanographic
14   measurement.
15             For example, I had extensive experience in
16   doing Winkler dissolved oxygen analyses which were
17   done on water analysis samples collected in Anson
18   bottles.  We took cores of the ocean bottom which
19   were supervised by Ph.D. level geologists.  We towed
20   plankton nets and had, you know, biologists aboard,
21   biological oceanographists.  We had representatives
22   from the U.S. Weather Bureau taking continuous
23   weather readings.
24             It's interesting that on our trip to India
25   we did not have electronic navigation.  This was in

                                                 Page 47

 1   1964, and I remember one period of time when it was
 2   cloudy for a week, and we became hopelessly lost,
 3   because the only navigation in the Bay of Bengal was
 4   by way of Sexton.  So we had to steam over to the
 5   Coast of India to find out where we were.
 6       Q.    Other than your Summer position back with
 7   the Coast Survey after your first year in the Masters
 8   program, did you have any other employment during the
 9   years that you obtained your Masters?
10       A.    Yes.
11             I was hired as a consultant by the
12   International Nickle Company to spend a Summer
13   looking for maganese nodules off a vessel they
14   chartered.  It left from San Diego.  I carried out
15   the work using T.V. cameras and dredges in the
16   Pacific between San Diego and Honolulu and then into
17   Honolulu.
18       Q.    Did you have any other employment while you
19   were obtaining your Masters?
20       A.    I mentioned those Summer jobs.  Then I had
21   an assistantship and a scholarship to the University
22   of Miami, but I think I have covered it all.  I could
23   have left something out.
24       Q.    And what did you do after obtaining your
25   Masters?  I believe you testify you continued as a

                                                 Page 48

 1   research associate?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    How long did you do that?
 4       A.    From 1971 through 1973.
 5       Q.    What were your responsibilities during that
 6   period from 1971 to 1973?
 7       A.    I was basically involved in carrying out
 8   field work associated with a project that the
 9   University of Miami was doing in South Florida and in
10   the Bahamas.
11             I believe it was during that time that I
12   did the work for the EPA.  We would have contracted
13   out, as I understand it, through the University.
14             I recall that I wound up spending almost
15   all my time working on projects associated with the
16   estuaries around Marco Island, the Deltona
17   Corporation having hired the University of Miami to
18   carry out that work.
19       Q.    What specifically was involved in the
20   projects that you were involved in around Marco
21   Island during this period from '71 to '73?
22       A.    I recall that I was in charge of installing
23   and operating a network of water level recorders
24   around Marco Island, and that meant that I had to
25   supervise their installation, and then I had to make

                                                 Page 49

 1   at least weekly visits to each of the stations.  I
 2   believe there were eight different water level
 3   recorders -- it could have been twice a week.  I
 4   can't recall -- to monitor the performance, collect
 5   data, install new tapes, carry out maintenance of
 6   those recorders and then work on processing the data.
 7       Q.    When you say water level recorders around
 8   Marco Island, does that mean on land or in the water
 9   around the island?
10       A.    No.
11             Another word for a water level recorder is
12   a tide gauge, and these were located on docks on
13   Coast Guard navigation structures, sometimes on
14   stands that we would build ourselves, but they were
15   in the water and on the water.
16             The tide gauge consisted of a rather
17   cumbersome apparatus that would record water levels
18   on a punch paper tape in response to a float that
19   would go up and down with the tide in what was called
20   a stilling well.
21       Q.    So those were continuous recorders?
22       A.    Continuous in that they made a reading
23   every six minutes.
24       Q.    And what did you do after you left the
25   Rosensteele School?

                                                 Page 50

 1       A.    As I mentioned, I discovered that I was
 2   working full-time on projects related to the Marco
 3   Island issue, and so I got a job directly with the
 4   Deltona Corporation to continue doing the same work,
 5   but for them directly instead of through the
 6   University.
 7       Q.    And that was in 1973?
 8       A.    That's correct.
 9       Q.    How long did you continue to work on the
10   San Marco project for Deltona?
11       A.    It's Marco Island, not San Marco.  There's
12   a different island called San Marco.
13       Q.    I am sorry.  Excuse me.
14       A.    I continued as an employee of the Deltona
15   Corporation until 1977.
16       Q.    And for that entire period, were you
17   working on the Marco Island project?
18       A.    Almost exclusively.
19       Q.    What other responsibilities, other than
20   those in connection with the Marco Island project,
21   did you have with Deltona?
22       A.    Deltona had other communities around the
23   state, and I may have worked briefly on some of the
24   environmental problems relating to those communities,
25   but that work would have been minor in comparison to

                                                 Page 51

 1   the work on the Marco Island issue.  I recall getting
 2   involved in an issue of lake levels in a community
 3   called Deltona.
 4       Q.    Excuse me?
 5       A.    A community called Deltona which was
 6   located north of Orlando.
 7       Q.    What kind of a business is Deltona?
 8       A.    Deltona was a land development company and
 9   were in the business of creating new towns, selling
10   land, selling houses, but they were a Florida
11   development company and had eight or so different
12   communities around the state that they began from
13   scratch and were building.
14       Q.    Why did Deltona need to do the tide level
15   work that you were doing on Marco Island?
16       A.    The issue at Marco Island -- one of the
17   issues at Marco Island had to do with water quality
18   and stay standards in man-made canals, and the water
19   level measurements were necessary in conjunction with
20   mathematical modeling of water quality in canals.
21       Q.    Were there any particular water quality
22   standards in the canal that were of interest
23   to Deltona during the time that you were working
24   there?
25       A.    I'd say that Deltona and the State of

                                                 Page 52

 1   Florida were mutually interested in the dissolved
 2   oxygen standard as a primary focus.  There may have
 3   been others, but the dissolved oxygen issue was of
 4   major importance, as I recall it.
 5       Q.    Other than the tide level gauging work that
 6   you did that you have already described, did you have
 7   any other responsibilities in connection with the
 8   Marco Island project when you were with Deltona?
 9       A.    Oh, yes.
10       Q.    What other responsibilities did you have?
11       A.    I was in charge of their ecology lab which
12   was headed up by a Ph.D. biologist and a staff of ten
13   or so other people, most of whom were college degree
14   ecologists, had a college degree ecology background.
15   However, I was not in charge of the day-to-day
16   operations.
17             Doctor Harmic was a resident at Marco
18   Island, and I was the person in Miami who company
19   management would look to whenever they had issues to
20   do with the ecology lab.  So I interfaced with the
21   company management and also with Doctor Harmic.
22       Q.    What kind of projects was the ecology lab
23   involved with during the time that you were at
24   Deltona?
25       A.    It was a full scale program dealing with

                                                 Page 53

 1   biology, Creole studies, sediments, dissolved oxygen,
 2   other water quality parameters besides dissolved
 3   oxygen, as well as coordinating work done by outside
 4   consultants for Deltona, environmental issues.
 5             For example, the University of Miami, many,
 6   many of the staff members at the Rosensteele School
 7   were involved in doing research projects, such as
 8   Doctor Wayneless in Geology and Doctor Carpenter who
 9   was the chairman of the Chemical Oceanography
10   Department, Doctor Vandekreigen from the Ocean
11   Engineering Department, Doctor Rosser from the
12   Biology Department, Doctor Heald and others such that
13   it was a research effort that involved an on-site
14   ecology lab, on-site staff and then the University of
15   Miami and other consultants who would carry out
16   specific studies and be assisted by the staff in the
17   Ecology Lab.
18       Q.    What was the nature of the dissolved oxygen
19   studies that Deltona undertook at Marco Island while
20   you were there?
21       A.    It was a long-term over many months program
22   to visit specific stations over and over at different
23   times of the day to record dissolved oxygen values,
24   both, in natural areas and in existing man-made
25   canals.

                                                 Page 54

 1       Q.    And what was your role, if any, in those
 2   dissolved oxygen studies?
 3       A.    My role was, to a limited degree, to
 4   participate in them directly, but I was not living in
 5   Marco Island.  So that was somewhat limited.  But my
 6   job description was environmental coordinator for the
 7   corporation.  So I was in charge of ensuring that the
 8   data was collected in a fashion that was acceptable
 9   to the consultants for the University of Miami that
10   were also working on the project and not to say that
11   I was simply an intermediary between them in the
12   Ecology Lab.  We all worked on them together.  But my
13   job was to coordinate the process and get the job
14   done using all the resources available.
15       Q.    Can you describe to me the dissolved oxygen
16   sampling and testing methodology that was used in
17   connection with the Marco Island project?
18       A.    We used a combination of YSI dissolved
19   oxygen meters and actual samples, water samples which
20   are analyzed using the Winkler method.
21       Q.    Were, both, the YSI dissolved oxygen meters
22   and the Winkler method used?
23       A.    The Winkler method is generally accepted as
24   a calibration standard, and so the YSI meters which
25   were electronic dissolved oxygen meters were

                                                 Page 55

 1   calibrated on a daily basis against the Winkler
 2   method, both, in the laboratory and in the field.
 3       Q.    More precisely, how were the YSI meters
 4   calibrated to the Winkler method?
 5       A.    The YSI meter, in general, would be used to
 6   measure dissolved oxygen in -- as I recall, and again
 7   it's been 20 years or so -- a location, and then a
 8   water sample would be selected from that same
 9   location and then analyzed.  There's more of a check.
10             The actual calibration was done in a pail
11   of water that had been saturated.  That means air had
12   been bubbled through the water in the pail such that,
13   in theory, the dissolved oxygen had reached its
14   saturation point, which is like as much dissolved
15   oxygen as the water can hold without giving off
16   dissolved oxygen.
17             Then as I recall -- and again, it's been 20
18   years -- the samples from that pail would be analyzed
19   using the Winkler method, which is a chemical process
20   that's accepted as a standard calibration standard.
21   So I think I have been responsive to your question.
22   I am not sure.
23       Q.    When you say the Winkler method is
24   generally accepted as a calibration method or
25   standard, I forget what you called it, who is it

                                                 Page 56

 1   generally accepted by?
 2       A.    The EPA.
 3       Q.    Just so I understand the calibration that
 4   was done.
 5             The saturated sample in the bucket would be
 6   tested?  A sample from that would be tested with the
 7   Winkler method; is that correct?
 8       A.    I think so, but I don't remember.  We had
 9   an elaborate protocol that we went through, and I
10   can't remember what specifically the steps were.
11       Q.    During the time that you were at Deltona,
12   were you involved with any topographic analysis?
13       A.    I recall that I was involved in
14   hydrographic analysis, which is the topography
15   features under water, but I don't think it was in a
16   major way.
17       Q.    Well, while you were obtaining your
18   Bachelors or Masters, did you do any course work
19   relating to soils?
20       A.    At the undergraduate level, I would have
21   dealt with soils in courses on foundations, and at
22   the graduate level, in courses on geology and
23   sediments, you would be evaluating cores from under
24   water.
25       Q.    When you left -- you left Deltona in 1977;

                                                 Page 57

 1   is that correct?
 2       A.    That's correct.
 3       Q.    And what did you do after you left Deltona
 4   in 1977?
 5       A.    I formed my own company, Larsen &
 6   Associates and continued basically to work for
 7   Deltona as an independent contractor instead of as an
 8   employee.
 9       Q.    For how long did you continue working for
10   Deltona after you formed Larsen & Associates?
11       A.    With a gradually diminished role, over a
12   course of four or five years.
13       Q.    What kind of business is Larsen &
14   Associates?
15       A.    We're environmental engineers.
16       Q.    And how many other employees are there?
17       A.    Six others.
18       Q.    What are the duties and responsibilities of
19   those other employees, briefly?
20       A.    Kevin Plute is a draftsman and CAD and our
21   GIS operator, and I believe he has an Associates
22   degree from a school in Illinois, Joliet College.
23             Mark McKuen is a chemical engineer from a
24   school in North Carolina.  It's either Duke or the
25   school in Raleigh.  I can't recall which one at the

                                                 Page 58

 1   moment.  Mark works mainly in the area of evaluating
 2   and cleaning up sites that are contaminated.
 3             Glen Homeyer has a degree in construction
 4   management and has extensive experience in carrying
 5   out field work.  He is the kind of guy that can build
 6   anything and do anything.
 7             Then I have three secretaries.
 8       Q.    Where is Larsen & Associates' office
 9   located?
10       A.    In One Biscayne Tower in Miami, Florida.
11       Q.    Do you have a laboratory at Larsen &
12   Associates?
13       A.    No.
14       Q.    Does Larsen & Associates own any water
15   quality sampling or monitoring equipment?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    What kind of equipment, water quality
18   sampling and monitoring equipment does Larsen &
19   Associates own?
20       A.    We have water level recorders, YSI
21   dissolved oxygen meters, hydrolab dissolved oxygen
22   meters which also measure other chemical parameters,
23   physical parameters.  We have various other equipment
24   we use to ascertain PH and conductivity in
25   conjunction with water level samples from monitor

                                                 Page 59

 1   wells.  We have surveying equipment we use to
 2   sustained levels and locations and various other
 3   assorted field equipment, such as devices for
 4   collecting sediment samples.  I think that's a
 5   somewhat complete list, but I could have left
 6   something out.
 7       Q.    At the present time, how many ongoing
 8   projects does the Larsen & Associates have?
 9       A.    At this moment, maybe 15.
10       Q.    How many of those are you involved in?
11       A.    Five or so.
12       Q.    Can you briefly describe to me what these
13   projects are?
14       A.    I represent a coalition of rock mining
15   companies in their effort to have a concept for a
16   lake belt west of Miami become sort of a general
17   permit and to define the land use for that area which
18   encompasses some 80 square miles.
19             In that regard, the state legislature
20   created a lake belt implementation committee which is
21   chaired by Alan Milledge who is the former chairman
22   of the Water Management District.
23             The Corps of Engineers is preparing an
24   environmental impact statement on the concept, and
25   Dade County DERM is cooperating in facilitating a

                                                 Page 60

 1   biological study of the area, and I understand that
 2   the EPA will be doing water quality studies.
 3             I am also doing individual permitting work
 4   for Vulcan Materials Corporation and Florida Rock
 5   Industries, associated with their quarry operations
 6   in both Dade and Broward County.
 7             I am working on a contaminated soil project
 8   on the Miami River, a project called Aimco Scrap Yard
 9   where after over 50 years of scrap operations, the
10   soils have become contaminated with lead, and we're
11   designing and securing approval for a plan to
12   remediate that contamination by solidifying the soils
13   with cement.  And of course, I am working on this
14   project.  There may be others, but those are the
15   major ones that come to mind at this moment.
16             I am also doing individual permitting work
17   for Tarmac of Florida, Inc., which is also a rock
18   mining company.
19       Q.    Your resume states that you have extensive
20   experience dealing with Army Corps of Engineers,
21   Florida Department of Environmental Regulation, and
22   the South Florida Water Management District, Dade
23   County DERM and the Dade County Building and Zoning
24   Department.
25             Can you describe the experience you have

                                                 Page 61

 1   had dealing with the Corps of Engineers?
 2       A.    The Corps of Engineers was heavily involved
 3   in the Marco Island issue, and as the federal agency
 4   which has permitting authority over wetlands and
 5   starting with the Deltona project and in all the
 6   projects for rock mining off other land development,
 7   Corps of Engineers has been involved in, and I have
 8   worked with them through the Jacksonville office in
 9   permitting matters.  So my involvement with the Corps
10   started in approximately 1973 and has continued until
11   now.
12       Q.    What experience have you had dealing with
13   the Florida Department of Environmental Regulation?
14       A.    Again, starting with the Marco Island
15   project, the Florida DER or its predecessor agency
16   was in charge of water quality certification, and
17   they were the agency that had to certify the quality
18   of the water in the proposed canals.  So my work with
19   DER started in 1973 and continues to the present day
20   in that they are involved in providing wetland
21   permits for many of my clients, and that involves
22   water quality certification.
23       Q.    And what experience do you have dealing
24   with the South Florida Water Management District?
25       A.    I have worked on a few consumptive use

                                                 Page 62

 1   permits, well permits which you have to obtain from
 2   the Water Management District.  The Water Management
 3   District is involved in the lake belt plan in that it
 4   is considered to be one of the, what they call, a
 5   facility which has potential for conserving water and
 6   reducing the quantity of water that is required to be
 7   supplied to urban areas by the Conservation Areas.  I
 8   have been working very closely with people in their
 9   planning staff on that project.
10       Q.    Your resume also states that you have done
11   some lectures for the University of Florida Center
12   for Training Research.
13             Can you describe to me what lecturing you
14   have done for that organization?
15       A.    I recall two specific times, one on the
16   issue of environmental auditing and the other on a
17   seminar that they presented on being an expert
18   witness.  I could be wrong.  It's strictly by recall,
19   but I recall specifically the one on being an expert
20   witness.
21       Q.    When did you do that lecturing?
22       A.    Within the last five or six years, but I
23   don't recall the date.
24       Q.    Other than your work in connection with the
25   proceeding we are involved in, have you done any

                                                 Page 63

 1   project for or on behalf of the Florida Sugar Cane
 2   League?
 3       A.    Not other than this general area that we're
 4   dealing with, no.
 5       Q.    Have you done any project other than the
 6   proceeding that we are involved in for United States
 7   Sugar Corporation?
 8       A.    Not that I can recall.
 9       Q.    Other than the proceeding project relating
10   to the proceedings we are involved in, have you done
11   any project for New Hope South, Incorporated?
12       A.    Not that I can recall.
13       Q.    Other than in relationship to the
14   proceeding we are involved in, have you done any
15   project for the Cities of Belle Glade or Clewiston?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    What work have you done for the Cities of
18   Belle Glade or Clewiston?
19       A.    I believe that my early involvement in this
20   issue starting in approximately 1989 was done for
21   Belle Glade and Clewiston.
22       Q.    What did your work on behalf of Belle Glade
23   and Clewiston involve?
24       A.    I know that I attended some meetings and I
25   reviewed materials for their attorneys, but

                                                 Page 64

 1   specifically, I would not be able to sort out exactly
 2   what I did for them as opposed to what I have done
 3   for others in this case.
 4       Q.    Did you do any field work on behalf of
 5   Belle Glade or Clewiston?
 6       A.    I may have.
 7       Q.    When you say you're unable to sort out what
 8   you did for Belle Glade and Clewiston from other work
 9   you have done, why is that?
10       A.    My primary contact in this case has been
11   through the Law Firm of Peeples, Earl & Blank, and
12   actually my bills were submitted to the law firm.  So
13   I had limited contact with any of the clients
14   directly involved.  So from a recall, it's kind of a
15   blur in terms of -- I have been working on this
16   project, but specifically which particular tasks were
17   for which particular clients are not available to me
18   through recall.
19       Q.    Were you paid separately for the work you
20   did for Belle Glade and Clewiston or work you did for
21   other entities?
22       A.    I believe I was.
23       Q.    Are you still doing work on behalf of Belle
24   Glade and Clewiston?
25       A.    I don't believe I am, no.  I haven't

                                                 Page 65

 1   recently, anyway.
 2       Q.    Was the rate that you charged for Belle
 3   Glade and Clewiston the same rate that you charge for
 4   your work for other entities?
 5       A.    I believe it was.
 6       Q.    What was that rate?
 7       A.    A hundred dollars an hour.
 8       Q.    Do you charge an additional amount for or a
 9   higher amount for court appearances or giving sworn
10   testimony?
11       A.    No.
12       Q.    Other than in relationship with the
13   proceeding we are involved in, have you done any
14   project for any agricultural interests in South
15   Florida?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    And what projects were those?
18       A.    I have done work for a group called the
19   South Dade Land Corporation, I believe the Florida
20   Lime and Avocado Growers and possibly another group
21   called the South Dade Farm Bureau, but I am not sure.
22       Q.    What did you do on behalf of the Lime and
23   Avocado Growers?
24       A.    They asked me to do a hydrologic analysis
25   of the effect of a major storm event which flooded

                                                 Page 66

 1   several of their facilities, their groves four or
 2   five years ago.
 3       Q.    And the two South Dade farming interests
 4   you mentioned, what project have you done for them?
 5       A.    Again, I recall testifying on their behalf
 6   in a hearing which, again, I recall was associated
 7   with the water levels associated with changing the
 8   deliveries to Everglades Park.  For the South Dade
 9   Land Corporation, I did an environmental audit of the
10   area called the Frog Pond.
11             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Mr. Garver, if you're not
12        going to break for lunch soon --
13                  (Discussion off the record.)
14 BY MR. GARVER:
15       Q.    For the work that you did on behalf of
16   Belle Glade and Clewiston, were you hired to provide
17   expert testimony in any judicial or other evidentiary
18   proceedings?
19       A.    I may have been.  I don't recall that that
20   either was or was not a specific objective at the
21   time that I did the work.
22             MR. GARVER:  All right.  Let's take a lunch
23        break.
24                  (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
25                  after which the following proceedings

                                                 Page 67

 1                  were had:)
 2 BY MR. GARVER:
 3       Q.    Mr. Larsen, I believe you testified that
 4   you began working in 1989 on projects related to the
 5   proceeding we are now involved in; is that correct?
 6       A.    To the best of my recollection, yes.
 7             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will object to the
 8        form.
 9             Counsel, just so I make sure -- the witness
10        is confused, when you refer to the proceeding we
11        are now involved in, are you also including in
12        that the federal litigation between the United
13        States and the South Florida Water Management
14        District?
15             MR. GARVER:  As a proceeding related to
16        this proceeding, yes.
17             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  That's fine.
18 BY MR. GARVER:
19       Q.    And I believe you testified that your work
20   beginning in 1989 was done, in part, for Belle Glade
21   and Clewiston; is that correct?
22       A.    Yes.
23       Q.    Were there any other entities that you
24   performed projects with related to this proceeding or
25   related proceedings starting in 1989?

                                                 Page 68

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    What other entities?
 3       A.    I believe they are listed on your request
 4   for my deposition, New Hope.
 5       Q.    Is it New Hope South, Incorporated,
 6   U.S. Sugar Corporation and Florida Sugar Cane League?
 7       A.    I believe so.
 8       Q.    Other than Belle Glade, Clewiston and the
 9   Florida Sugar Cane League, New Hope South and
10   U.S. Sugar, were there any other entities on whose
11   behalf you have been doing projects related to this
12   proceeding or related proceedings?
13       A.    You might consider that my participation in
14   the SAGE Committee was somehow related to this, in
15   which case that work was done for Flo Sun.
16       Q.    Who contacted you in 1989 to start working
17   on projects related to this proceeding and other
18   related proceedings?
19       A.    I don't recall specifically, but it was
20   most probably Mr. Earl.
21       Q.    And do you recall when you were first
22   contacted?
23       A.    I don't recall the date.
24       Q.    What were you asked to do when you were
25   first contacted in 1989?

                                                 Page 69

 1       A.    I recall that I was asked to assist the
 2   attorneys, but I can't remember specific tasks.
 3       Q.    Starting in 1989 when you were first
 4   contacted and going into the present, I want to try
 5   and get a chronology of the projects that you worked
 6   on related to this proceeding or the federal
 7   litigation, the related federal litigation.
 8             Do you recall what the first project you
 9   worked on was starting in 1989?
10             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Let me just impose an
11        objection to the extent that this question seeks
12        information, for instance, beyond, for example,
13        the comment if he was requested to assist
14        counsel in preparing for deposition.
15             I will not allow the witness to testify as
16        to the specific conversations and/or manner in
17        which he has assisted in non testifying matters.
18        So to the extent you're just looking for general
19        areas, that's fine, testifying areas.  Obviously
20        you're allowed to explore more, but work product
21        where it's not related to his testimony where he
22        was just assisting counsel in the litigation, I
23        will instruct him that that is work product
24        privileged information.  Other than describing
25        in broad catergories, you can go ahead and

                                                 Page 70

 1        respond.
 2 BY MR. GARVER:
 3       Q.    Yeah, do you recall what my question was?
 4       A.    I believe you asked me for a chronology of
 5   things that I have done associated with this matter
 6   starting in 1989 and continuing to the present.
 7       Q.    Right.
 8       A.    And if that's correct, I can possibly give
 9   you an outline.
10       Q.    Please do that.
11       A.    I was asked to look into the possibility of
12   using satellite imagery to detect changes in
13   vegetation, and pursuant to that, I eventually worked
14   with a company called ERIN and worked with them in
15   their attempts to analyze vegetation changes.
16       Q.    What timeframe were you involved in the
17   satellite imagery work?
18       A.    I recall that it was during 1990, but I
19   don't recall the specifics or the exact dates.
20       Q.    In what area were you going to be looking --
21   geographically, what area were you going to be
22   looking at for vegetative changes with satellite
23   imagery?
24       A.    The Water Conservation Areas.
25       Q.    Was that satellite imagery work ever done?

                                                 Page 71

 1       A.    A substantial amount of work was done, but
 2   the results proved inconclusive.
 3       Q.    In what regard were the results
 4   inconclusive from that satellite imagery work?
 5             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will object to the
 6        question to the extent that Mr. Larsen is not a
 7        witness as to satellite mapping.
 8             ERIN is not listed as an expert witness.
 9        To the extent that they are a non testifying
10        expert that was consulted, I will not allow the
11        witness to testify about that matter since
12        that's privileged.
13             MR. GARVER:  You're considering all that
14        satellite imagery work to be priveleged work
15        product?
16             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I don't believe I have
17        any expert testifying about it.  So it would be
18        a non testifying expert that was consulted.
19             MR. GARVER:  You're instructing Mr. Larsen
20        not to answer my question at all; is that
21        correct?
22             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  If you will read back the
23        last question, I will instruct him not to
24        respond.
25                  (The question referred to was

                                                 Page 72

 1                  thereupon read by the reporter as
 2                  above recorded.)
 3             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Again, I will instruct
 4        the witness not to respond as to privileged
 5        communications with a non testifying expert,
 6        yes.
 7 BY MR. GARVER:
 8       Q.    Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my
 9   question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instruction?
10       A.    Yes, I do.
11       Q.    Was there any field work involved in the
12   work involving ERIN and satellite imagery?
13             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Same privileged grounds.
14        I will instruct the witness not to respond to
15        that question.
16 BY MR. GARVER:
17       Q.    Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my
18   question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instruction?
19       A.    Yes, I refuse.
20       Q.    And I understand you're going in
21   chronological order starting in 1989.  Then you
22   mentioned this ERIN satellite imagery work.  Am I
23   correct in assuming you're going in chronological
24   order?
25       A.    I'm attempting to do it in chronological

                                                 Page 73

 1   order.  However, I may get things slightly out of
 2   order, but it was an early effort.
 3       Q.    What other projects have you been involved
 4   with related to this proceeding or related
 5   proceedings?
 6       A.    I worked on preparing a vegetation map of
 7   Conservation Area 2A.
 8       Q.    And during what time period were you
 9   involved in doing vegetation mapping with
10   Conservation Area 2A?
11       A.    I recall it was in 1989 and possibly early
12   1990.
13             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I'd like to take a short
14        break and talk to my witness.
15                  (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
16                  after which the following proceedings
17                  were had:)
18 BY MR. GARVER:
19       Q.    Mr. Larsen, I want to back up a second just
20   a little bit here.
21             In the work that you did involving
22   satellite imagery and ERIN, were there any other
23   people involved in that project?
24       A.    Other than?
25       Q.    Other than ERIN?

                                                 Page 74

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    Who were those people?
 3       A.    I believe that Mike Dennis accompanied me
 4   on a helicopter ride of the Conservation Areas along
 5   with a representative of their's.
 6       Q.    Any other people?
 7       A.    Not that I can recall.
 8       Q.    Was Curtis Richardson at all involved in
 9   that work involving ERIN and satellite imagery?
10       A.    I think he was aware of it but didn't
11   participate in any fashion.
12       Q.    Were you looking for any particular
13   vegetative changes in the satellite imagery work that
14   you were doing?
15             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will instruct the
16        witness not to respond on the previously stated
17        privilege.
18 BY MR. GARVER:
19       Q.    Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my
20   question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instruction?
21       A.    Yes, I do.
22       Q.    Can you describe to me the methodology that
23   was employed in conducting the satellite imagery work
24   with ERIN?
25             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will instruct the

                                                 Page 75

 1        witness not to respond based upon the previously
 2        stated privilege.
 3 BY MR. GARVER:
 4       Q.    Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my
 5   question based on Mr. Kobelinski's instructions?
 6       A.    Yes.
 7       Q.    Can you tell me what kinds of data, if any,
 8   you gathered during your work involving satellite
 9   imagery with ERIN?
10             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will instruct the
11        witness not to respond based upon previously
12        stated privilege.
13 BY MR. GARVER:
14       Q.    Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my
15   question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instructions?
16       A.    Yes.
17       Q.    Mr. Larsen, can you describe to me what
18   kind of equipment was used in conducting the
19   satellite imagery work that you mentioned?
20             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will instruct the
21        witness not to respond based upon previously
22        stated privilege.
23 BY MR. GARVER:
24       Q.    Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my
25   question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instructions?

                                                 Page 76

 1       A.    Yes.
 2       Q.    Prior to the work you conducted on
 3   satellite imagery in connection with this proceeding
 4   or related proceedings, have you been involved in any
 5   other satellite imagery work?
 6       A.    Is the question prior to 1989?
 7       Q.    Prior to 1989, yes.
 8       A.    Only to the extent that we used satellite
 9   imagery to delineate mangrove areas in the Marco
10   Island case.
11       Q.    What was your involvement in using
12   satellite imagery to identify mangrove areas in the
13   Marco Island case?
14       A.    Simply to use hard copies of the satellite
15   imagery upon which mangrove areas are fairly easy to
16   distinguish from other vegetation zones to map the
17   extent of mangroves on the southwest coast of
18   Florida.
19       Q.    Did you, yourself, do the photo
20   interpretation of the mapping based on the satellite
21   imagery in the Marco Island case?
22       A.    Yes.
23       Q.    In your work with Marco Island, how did you
24   know how to identify mangroves on satellite images?
25       A.    Their signature on the photo was very easy

                                                 Page 77

 1   to distinguish from other adjacent vegetation, and so
 2   I was able to utilize that signature change from
 3   areas that I knew and locations that I knew and
 4   transfer it to other areas along the southwest coast.
 5       Q.    How were you familiar with the signature
 6   for mangroves on those satellite images?
 7       A.    It was visually apparent that there was
 8   vegetation discontinuity on the photo.  In large
 9   measure, mangrove areas would give way to prairies,
10   and there was a substantial change in the color and
11   the texture in the photo as you crossed from a
12   mangrove area into a non mangrove area.
13       Q.    Have you ever taken any course work or
14   other training in interpreting satellite images for
15   vegetative changes?
16       A.    I may have attended a seminar, but I don't
17   recall, other than that possibily, that I received
18   any training.
19       Q.    When was the work that you were involved in
20   with ERIN involving satellite imagery in this
21   proceeding or the related proceedings completed?
22       A.    I don't recall exactly, but I believe it
23   was early in 1991.
24       Q.    Can you describe to me any reports or
25   documentation that there are of that work involving

                                                 Page 78

 1   satellite imagery?
 2             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I am sorry.  Could you
 3        read that back.
 4                  (The question referred to was
 5                  thereupon read by the reporter as
 6                  above recorded.)
 7             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Just so I understand,
 8        Counsel, you're asking for the contents of the
 9        reports or just a description of whether there
10        are reports, just so I understand your question?
11             MR. GARVER:  Well, actually, I'd like to
12        know whether there are any reports or
13        documentation and what the contents are.
14             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  If you ask them
15        separately, I will allow the witness to respond
16        as to whether there are any reports.
17             As to the contents of them, I will not be
18        allowing the witness to respond.
19 BY MR. GARVER:
20       Q.    Are there any reports or documentation of
21   the work that you performed in roughly 1990 to 1991
22   involving satellite imagery, including photographs?
23       A.    Reports were prepared.
24       Q.    How many reports were prepared?
25       A.    Only one, to my knowledge.

                                                 Page 79

 1       Q.    And who prepared that report?
 2       A.    I believe it was prepared by ERIN.
 3       Q.    When was that report prepared?
 4       A.    I am sorry?
 5       Q.    When was that report prepared by ERIN?
 6       A.    I recall that it was in 1991.
 7       Q.    You don't recall when in 1991 that report
 8   was prepared; is that right?
 9       A.    No.  My recollection of the timeframe is
10   approximate.
11       Q.    And did you read that report?
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    Can you describe to me what that report
14   said?
15             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  I will instruct the
16        witness not to respond under the previously
17        stated privilege.
18 BY MR. GARVER:
19       Q.    Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my
20   question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instructions?
21       A.    Yes, I do.
22       Q.    I believe the next project you stated you
23   were involved in was vegetation mapping of
24   Conservation Area 2A; is that correct?
25       A.    That's correct.

                                                 Page 80

 1       Q.    When was that vegetation mapping work
 2   performed?
 3       A.    I recall it was in 1989.
 4       Q.    What portions of the Water Conservation
 5   Area 2A were mapped during that work?
 6       A.    The northern portion.
 7       Q.    When you say northern portion, can you be
 8   more specific about what portion of 2A you're
 9   describing?
10       A.    Perhaps the northeast portion.
11       Q.    Does that include the portion of
12   Conservation Area 2A immediately downstream of the
13   S-10 structures?
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    Do you recall on whose behalf the
16   vegetation mapping work was done?
17       A.    I recall that it was done at the request of
18   the law firm.  The specific client involved, as I
19   mentioned before, I don't recall.
20       Q.    You don't remember whether you billed the
21   law firm, whether you charged Belle Glade or
22   Clewiston for that work or whether you charged
23   another entity for that?
24       A.    I don't recall.
25       Q.    Were any other people involved in that

                                                 Page 81

 1   vegetation mapping?
 2       A.    Yes.
 3       Q.    And who were they?
 4       A.    I recall there was a botanist from
 5   Environmental Services and Permitting and a botanist
 6   from Breedlove, Dennis and Associates, and I believe
 7   that there was a botanist from one other firm that I
 8   can't recall.
 9       Q.    Was John Davis involved at all in that
10   vegetation mapping work?
11       A.    No, other than as the boss of whoever it
12   was from his firm that was the botanist that
13   accompanied me.
14       Q.    His firm is ESP?
15       A.    That's correct.
16       Q.    Was Bill Patrick involved at all in that
17   vegetative mapping work?
18       A.    No.
19       Q.    Was Curtis Richardson involved in that
20   vegetation mapping work?
21       A.    No.
22       Q.    Was Chris Craft involved at all in that
23   vegetation mapping work?
24       A.    No, not in the work itself.
25       Q.    Were any of the people that I mentioned,

                                                 Page 82

 1   John Davis, Bill Patrick, Curtis Richardson, Chris
 2   Craft involved in reviewing any of the vegetation
 3   mapping work?
 4       A.    Not prior to the completion of a report.
 5       Q.    What was the purpose of the vegetation
 6   mapping you performed in Conservation Area 2A?
 7       A.    To delineate vegetation associations south
 8   of the 10 structures.
 9       Q.    I am sorry.  To delineate vegetation
10   associations?
11       A.    Associations south of the 10 structures.
12       Q.    What do you mean by vegetation
13   associations?
14       A.    For example, areas that are an association
15   of different plants, but where one plant may
16   predominate as opposed to a different area where
17   other plants may be more numerous.
18       Q.    Can you describe to me how the vegetation
19   mapping work was carried out?
20       A.    Yes.
21       Q.    Please do that.
22       A.    The location of the helicopter was
23   determined by Loran, and the procedure was to fly
24   along a line until the botanists who were sitting in
25   the back of the helicopter with the doors off and had

                                                 Page 83

 1   an unobstructed view would tell me that the
 2   associations had changed significantly.
 3             At that time the helicopter would stop and
 4   whoever the botanist is would read off the list of
 5   major plant species and their estimation of percent
 6   cover by each of those species.  I would record in a
 7   field book the Loran position and the list of species
 8   and their percent covered, and then the helicopter
 9   would proceed further along the line until another
10   change in vegetation association was noted, at which
11   time we'd stop and repeat the procedure.
12       Q.    Did you fly several transects south of the
13   S-10 structures?
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    How many transects did you fly?
16       A.    I recall that there were perhaps ten, maybe
17   more, maybe less, but approximately ten.
18       Q.    For each transect, how did you determine
19   when to stop flying?  In other words, how did you
20   determine the end point of the transect?
21       A.    When we were in an area that was more than
22   99-percent sawgrass.
23       Q.    Do you recall when these helicopter flights
24   were made for the vegetation mapping?
25       A.    I recall it was 1989.

                                                 Page 84

 1       Q.    Do you recall more specifically when in
 2   1989 it was done?
 3       A.    My recollection is it's the Fall.
 4       Q.    Do you still have your field notes from
 5   that vegetation mapping overflight work?
 6       A.    Yes.
 7       Q.    Do you have any other documentation of the
 8   helicopter overflight portion of the vegetation
 9   mapping work other than your field notes?
10       A.    Yes.
11       Q.    What other documentation?
12       A.    I prepared a report and maps summarizing
13   information.
14       Q.    Did you have a work plan or a study plan
15   prior to conducting the helicopter overflights, a
16   written study plan or work plan?
17       A.    I don't think so.
18             MR. GARVER:  Mr. Kobelinkski, to the extent
19        that the subject documentation wasn't covered by
20        our notice, I guess we would ask for all
21        documents related to Mr. Larsen's vegetation
22        mapping work.  I will follow-up this with a
23        request for production.
24             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  If you file a written
25        request, there probably wouldn't be any problem

                                                 Page 85

 1        producing them to you.  I haven't taken a look
 2        at them, but there probably shouldn't be any
 3        problem.
 4 BY MR. GARVER:
 5       Q.    Other than the Loran that was used with the
 6   helicopter, was there any other instrumentation used
 7   in conducting the vegetation mapping work?
 8       A.    No.
 9       Q.    Other than the helicopter work, was there
10   any other field work involved in doing the vegetation
11   mapping?
12       A.    Not that I can recall.
13       Q.    Do you have any photographs documenting the
14   helicopter overflight portion of the vegetation
15   mapping work?
16       A.    I don't think so.  I was too busy to take
17   pictures.
18       Q.    Can you tell me, do you recall the names of
19   the botanists for ESP, Breedlove, and I believe you
20   mentioned one other botanist that was involved in the
21   vegetation mapping?
22       A.    I remember a name, Mike Drummond, but the
23   names of the botanists are included in the field
24   notes.
25       Q.    Prior to the vegetation mapping work you

                                                 Page 86

 1   just described in 1989, have you been involved in
 2   other vegetation mapping projects?
 3       A.    Yes.
 4       Q.    And how many other such projects?
 5       A.    Two.
 6       Q.    And when were those projects done?
 7       A.    In the same time period, 1989, 1991.
 8       Q.    Can you describe those other vegetation
 9   mapping projects to me, please?
10       A.    One of them was in conjunction with the
11   ERIN work, and the other was to map, using similar
12   procedures, the southern portion of Conservation Area
13   1.
14       Q.    Other than the people you mentioned earlier
15   that were involved in the satellite imagery work with
16   ERIN, were there any other people involved in doing
17   vegetative mapping in connection with the ERIN work?
18       A.    I think I mentioned that Mike Dennis may
19   have participated in that work.
20       Q.    In the vegetation mapping portion of the
21   ERIN work; is that right?
22       A.    Yes.
23             I am assuming that you are -- in terms of
24   all this, you're saying as it relates to this case,
25   any vegetation mapping?  In other words, I have

                                                 Page 87

 1   worked on vegetation mapping in the Marco Island case
 2   and in others.
 3       Q.    Actually, I had not limited my question.
 4   So I was asking for experience in vegetation mapping
 5   outside of this case when I asked earlier.  We can
 6   clarify that right now.
 7             Other than work relating to this proceeding
 8   or related proceedings, when else have you conducted
 9   vegetation mapping?
10       A.    In conjunction with the Marco Island case,
11   and in 1990 and 1991 I prepared a vegetation map of
12   the area associated with the Dade County Lake Belt
13   Plan for different clients, and there may have been
14   other projects that involved vegetation mapping in
15   conjunction with Environmental Permitting.
16             In fact, I now recall another fairly
17   detailed vegetation map that I worked on for Tarmac,
18   and I guess that almost every wetland permitting case
19   that I have worked on would involve a map showing
20   vegetation as it relates to wetland permitting
21   issues.
22       Q.    In any of the vegetation mapping work you
23   have done, have you ever, yourself, delineated the
24   vegetation associations?
25       A.    I mainly work with a botanist, and unless

                                                 Page 88

 1   the vegetation classifications are exceedingly
 2   simple, in other words, black and white between areas
 3   that are melaleuca and easy to distinguish, I would
 4   typically use a professional botanist to work with me
 5   to identify the plant associations.  The
 6   responsibilities would generally be his, the
 7   botanist's, to delineate the associations, and my
 8   responsibility would be to prepare the map.
 9       Q.    In the vegetation mapping work that you
10   have done in the Everglades, have you always relied
11   on professional botanists to delineate the vegetation
12   associations?
13       A.    That's correct.
14       Q.    When did you conduct vegetation mapping of
15   the southern portion of Water Conservation Area 1?
16       A.    I believe it was in 1990.
17       Q.    Did anyone assist you in conducting
18   vegetation mapping in Water Conservation Area 1?
19       A.    I was assisted by a helicopter pilot and
20   botanists.
21       Q.    Do you recall who the botanists were?
22       A.    They would be in the field notes, but I
23   don't recall at this time.
24       Q.    What was the purpose of the mapping you
25   conducted in Water Conservation Area 1?

                                                 Page 89

 1       A.    To delineate the extent of cattails.
 2       Q.    Please describe to me the methodology used
 3   in conducting the vegetation mapping in Water
 4   Conservation Area 1.
 5       A.    It would be the same as described earlier.
 6       Q.    And where did you begin your flight
 7   transect when you did the vegetation mapping in Water
 8   Conservation Area 1?
 9       A.    Over the Hillsboro levee.
10       Q.    How did you determine the end point of the
11   flight transect when you were doing vegetation
12   mapping in Water Conservation Area 1?
13       A.    I don't recall the specific criteria, but
14   it was definitely when we were beyond the area of
15   heavy cattail coverage.
16       Q.    Would your field notes reflect a specific
17   criteria that were used to determine the end point?
18       A.    They may.
19       Q.    Do you have any reports, photographs or
20   other documentation of the vegetation mapping in the
21   Water Conservation Area 1?
22       A.    I recall preparing a report.
23       Q.    Just one report?  Is that all of the
24   documentation, other than the field notes, from the
25   Water Conservation Area 1 vegetation mapping?

                                                 Page 90

 1       A.    As I recall.
 2       Q.    When you did your flight transect in Water
 3   Conservation Area 2A and Water Conservation Area 1,
 4   how high were you flying above ground?
 5       A.    Probably between 10 feet and 500 feet.
 6       Q.    So your flight transects were not all taken
 7   at the same height above ground level?
 8       A.    No.
 9       Q.    What criteria were used to determine how
10   high you would fly during your flight transect?
11       A.    The criteria is sufficient so that the
12   botanist could identify plant associations.
13       Q.    Did you ever touch down in the marsh itself
14   during your vegetation mapping work?
15       A.    In Conservation Area 2A, yes.  In the
16   Loxahatchee, no.
17       Q.    Do you recall under what circumstances it
18   was necessary to fly at ten feet above ground level?
19       A.    When the botanists wanted a closer look.
20       Q.    Do you know what criteria the botanists
21   were using to determine when they would want to go
22   down to ten feet?
23       A.    I guess it was a judgment call on their
24   part so that they were able to confidently delineate
25   the point at which vegetation associations changed.

                                                 Page 91

 1       Q.    Were you ever as low as ten feet above
 2   ground level during your overflights of Water
 3   Conservation Area 1?
 4       A.    I don't recall the actual elevations.
 5       Q.    Do you recall how long your longest
 6   transect was in Water Conservation Area 1?
 7       A.    It may have been a mile or more.
 8       Q.    In the vegetation mapping work you did in
 9   Conservation Area 2A, do you recall how far apart the
10   outermost flight transects were?
11       A.    Five or six miles.  That's an estimate.
12       Q.    And do you recall in your vegetation
13   mapping in Water Conservation Area 1 how far apart
14   your outermost flight transects were?
15       A.    Twelve miles.
16       Q.    Does the report you prepared documenting
17   vegetation mapping of Water Conservation Area 1
18   include a map?
19       A.    Yes, it does.
20       Q.    Did you map any other areas in Water
21   Conservation Area 1 other than the area along the
22   Hillsboro Canal?
23       A.    No.
24       Q.    Why were you looking at or interested in
25   mapping cattails in Water Conservation Area 1?

                                                 Page 92

 1       A.    It seemed that cattails were a major issue,
 2   and so therefore it was useful to have a general idea
 3   of where they were.
 4       Q.    From doing your cattail mapping in Water
 5   Conservation Area 1, were you able to calculate or
 6   estimate an acreage over which you observed cattail
 7   coverage in the area that you mapped?
 8       A.    Yes.
 9       Q.    What acreage did you calculate or estimate?
10       A.    I don't recall.
11       Q.    Excuse me?
12       A.    I don't recall.
13       Q.    Does your report say what acreage?
14       A.    Yes.
15       Q.    Have you participated in doing any Duke
16   Wetlands Center project in the Everglades?
17       A.    I have visited their site, but I have had
18   no participation in their work.  I may have been
19   along on a field trip when they collected samples,
20   but I had no involvement in collecting those samples.
21       Q.    What was your purpose for visiting their
22   site or coming along during the field trips?
23       A.    Background information.
24       Q.    Have you reviewed any of the Duke Wetlands
25   Center projects in the Everglades?

                                                 Page 93

 1       A.    I reviewed --
 2             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Can you read that back?
 3                  (The question referred to was
 4                  thereupon read by the reporter as
 5                  above recorded.)
 6             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Reports or --
 7             MR. GARVER:  Yeah, let me clarify.
 8 BY MR. GARVER:
 9       Q.    Have you reviewed any reports of any Duke
10   Wetlands Center project in the Everglades?
11       A.    Yes.
12       Q.    What reports have you reviewed?
13       A.    I believe that they have prepared annual
14   reports outlining the progress, and I have read
15   those.
16       Q.    Did you provide comments on those annual
17   reports?
18       A.    No.
19       Q.    Have you ever conducted any tours for any
20   Duke Wetlands Center personnel in the Everglades?
21       A.    I have been on tours with people from Duke,
22   but I haven't conducted tours for people from Duke.
23       Q.    What tours have you been on with Duke
24   Wetlands Center personnel?
25       A.    I don't recall all of the times, but I

                                                 Page 94

 1   remember that I was along with Doctor Richardson and
 2   Doctor Craft at one time, and we visited Conservation
 3   Area 2A when it was very dry, and there were other
 4   people along, as well.
 5       Q.    Was this by some kind of land or water
 6   transport or were you in the air when you conducted
 7   that tour?
 8       A.    I recall it was by helicopter.
 9       Q.    Do you have a general opinion of the
10   quality of the Duke Wetlands Center work in the
11   Everglades?
12       A.    Yes.
13       Q.    What is that opinion?
14       A.    It's very good.
15             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Can we take a quick two
16        minute recess.
17                  (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
18                  after which the following proceedings
19                  were had:)
20 BY MR. GARVER:
21       Q.    Mr. Larsen, we were more or less proceeding
22   chronologically, and we had come up to the vegetation
23   mapping work that you have done in the Water
24   Conservation Areas.
25             What other projects have you worked on

                                                 Page 95

 1   related to this proceeding or the federal litigation?
 2       A.    I have been involved in collecting
 3   dissolved oxygen data in the Conservation Area 2A and
 4   3A.
 5       Q.    When did you start doing your dissolved
 6   oxygen work in Water Conservation Area 2A and 3A?
 7       A.    I think I started in the Fall of 1990, but
 8   it might have been the Fall of 1991.
 9       Q.    And have you completed your dissolved
10   oxygen work in Water Conservation Area 2A and 3A?
11       A.    Essentially completed, yeah.
12       Q.    Essentially completed; is that right?
13       A.    Yes.
14       Q.    Have you finished your field work?
15       A.    Yes.
16       Q.    Other than the dissolved oxygen work you
17   just described in Area 2A and 3A, are there any other
18   parts of the Everglades that you have ever done any
19   dissolved oxygen work?
20       A.    No, not that I can recall.
21       Q.    What remains to be done with your dissolved
22   oxygen work in the Conservation Areas?
23       A.    I believe that certain information from the
24   last set of readings which was collected in December
25   has to be added to the quality assurance/quality

                                                 Page 96

 1   control section.
 2       Q.    The quality assurance/quality control
 3   section of what?
 4       A.    Of our materials that we prepare in
 5   conjunction with the collection of data.
 6       Q.    What kind of materials are you referring
 7   to?
 8       A.    Summaries, calibration data, insertion of
 9   field notes in specific binders and so forth.
10       Q.    Other than the projects that we have
11   already discussed, are there any other projects that
12   you have conducted in connection with this proceeding
13   or related proceedings?
14       A.    I have been working on a topographic map
15   since approximately November of 1992 for other
16   clients, and I understand that now that work will be
17   used in conjunction with this matter.
18       Q.    What other clients were you doing
19   topographic work for?
20       A.    Mr. Parsons.
21       Q.    Mr. Parsons?
22       A.    Correct.
23       Q.    And who does he work for?
24       A.    He is an attorney that represents some of
25   the same clients, as I understand it, as the Peeples,

                                                 Page 97

 1   Earl and Blank law firm.  But the work that I did for
 2   him, it was not anticipated that it be used in the
 3   context of this hearing.
 4       Q.    And is that topographic map and the work
 5   involved in preparing that, is that completed?
 6       A.    No.
 7       Q.    What remains to be done in connection with
 8   that project?
 9       A.    It's work in progress, and there's
10   substantial editing and coordination of different
11   data sets that needs to be carried out before we
12   arrive at a final map.
13       Q.    Have you provided all the documentation of
14   your topographic work related to the creation of that
15   map that you have to me?
16       A.    Yeah.  As of the date when we provided it,
17   as I mentioned, it's ongoing.  So it may be being
18   worked on as we sit here today.
19       Q.    And do you know when you will complete your
20   work on that topographic map?
21       A.    We're scheduled to have a first draft ready
22   in mid April.
23       Q.    Do you know why Mr. Parson's wanted this
24   topographic work done?
25       A.    I think it was in conjunction with a

                                                 Page 98

 1   presentation to the Board of the Water Management
 2   District, but I am not sure.
 3       Q.    Do you know the subject matter of that
 4   presentation by Mr. Parsons?
 5       A.    No, I don't.
 6       Q.    Other than the things we have mentioned so
 7   far, are there any other projects that you have done
 8   related to this proceeding or related proceedings?
 9       A.    I have been asked by the attorneys to
10   review historical documents associated with and
11   related to the Central and South Florida Flood
12   Control District Project, and those documents are
13   comprised mainly of what are called general design
14   memorandums, the Corps of Engineers Master Regulation
15   Manuals prepared by the Corps of Engineers, and
16   various house documents prepared by the Corps of
17   Engineers, and recent environmental impact statements
18   which have been prepared by the Corps of Engineers in
19   conjunction with recent additions to the general
20   design memorandum series.
21       Q.    What's the purpose of your review of those
22   historical documents and environmental impact
23   statements and the documents you just described?
24       A.    To understand the evolution of the project
25   and the thinking of the people who were designing it

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 1   and building it.
 2       Q.    From your review of historical documents,
 3   what is your understanding of the evolution of the
 4   federal project?
 5             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Objection, calls for a
 6        narrative answer.
 7 BY MR. GARVER:
 8       Q.    If you can just describe briefly.
 9       A.    I guess I can give you either a simple
10   answer or very complicated answer, and I will start
11   with a simple answer.
12             The project was designed to remedy a
13   situation that existed in approximately 1950, and
14   that remedy was based on a body of work by federal
15   and state agencies that had been ongoing since
16   approximately 1910.  That project evolved in response
17   to changing in knowledge that was acquired as the
18   project proceeded.  So it was created somewhat
19   according to the original plans and somewhat as an
20   evolutionary process.
21       Q.    Well, I think I will get into more detail
22   and draw your longer answer a little bit later on.
23             Can you describe to me what you have
24   discerned as to the thinking of the people who
25   designed the Federal Project?

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 1             MR. KOBELINKSKI:  Same objection, it call
 2        for a narrative answer.
 3             THE WITNESS:  The project was essentially a
 4        compromise among a number of basically
 5        conflicting goals and criteria.
 6             I hope that's responsive to your question.
 7 BY MR. GARVER:
 8       Q.    Is that your answer?
 9       A.    Yes.
10       Q.    Very briefly, what conflicting goals does
11   the Federal Project represent a compromise of?
12       A.    There was a strong element of environmental
13   considerations of wildlife habitat, vegetation and
14   soils which conflicted with some of the water supply
15   and flood control purposes of the project.
16       Q.    With which water supply and flood control
17   purposes did the environmental considerations
18   conflict?
19       A.    There's a general need, for water supply
20   purposes, to retain as much water as possible in the
21   system from the wet season for use later in the dry
22   season, and this can conflict with the maintenance of
23   natural fluctuations in areas that are used for
24   storage of water compared to what they were
25   historically.

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 1       Q.    I believe you said they can conflict; is
 2   that correct?
 3       A.    They do generally conflict.
 4       Q.    Do they necessarily conflict?
 5       A.    In my opinion, yes.
 6       Q.    And why is that?
 7       A.    In general, the size of marsh areas has
 8   been cut in hal, f and former marsh areas have been
 9   diverted both to agriculture and urban purposes, and
10   as a result, the natural balance between water and
11   land has been seriously affected.
12       Q.    And that explains why certain water supply
13   and flood control purposes conflict with
14   environmental considerations?
15       A.    I am not sure I understand.
16             The original system behaved vastly
17   different than the present system, and the historical
18   system functioned in response to historical
19   conditions, and the modern system functions in
20   response to modern conditions which are required to
21   be different than the historical conditions in order
22   for the modern system to function.
23       Q.    And other than the reduction in the amount
24   of the size of the marsh, what differences are there
25   between what you described as modern conditions and

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 1   what you said were historic conditions?
 2       A.    The entire balance of water, the timing,
 3   duration, flow, depth of water throughout the system
 4   has changed.
 5       Q.    Are those changes from the historic
 6   conditions in conflict with environmental
 7   considerations?
 8       A.    They entail a change in historical
 9   conditions, and as such, they will inevitably lead to
10   changes in what's left the natural or undeveloped
11   system, because the remaining system is fragile.
12       Q.    And what changes in what's remaining of the
13   natural system will be changes from the historic
14   conditions inevitably lead to?
15       A.    Changes in soils, changes in vegetation,
16   changes in the topography, changes in the timing and
17   distribution of flow of water and their delivery out
18   the bottom end of the system as well as through the
19   system.
20       Q.    What changes in soils will the changes from
21   historical conditions inevitably lead to?
22       A.    If the soils are maintained as they were
23   and allowed to dry out more than they did
24   historically, the soils will subside, and the method
25   of delivery of water from areas conversed to other

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 1   purposes to areas that have not been so converted may
 2   change the chemical character of the soils.
 3       Q.    Would an example of that be water from the
 4   Everglades Agricultural Area entering into Water
 5   Conservation Areas?
 6       A.    An example would be when a historical area
 7   is affected by a levee and a gate and the timing and
 8   distribution and depth and quantity of water
 9   delivered to some areas has been vastly increased and
10   to other areas has been vastly decreased.
11       Q.    And that change in the delivery causes soil
12   subsidence?
13       A.    It can cause change in soil chemistry.
14       Q.    What changes in soil chemistry would those
15   kind of changes cause?
16       A.    I didn't hear the question.
17       Q.    What kind of changes in soil chemistry do
18   the changes in the delivery that you just described
19   cause?
20       A.    It can cause changes, among others, in soil
21   phosphorus.
22       Q.    And what changes in soil phosphorus can
23   result from the changes in delivery that you just
24   described?
25       A.    The changes can be relative to historic

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 1   conditions.
 2       Q.    And relative to historic conditions,