1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA

3 CASE NOS. 92-3038

92-3039

4 92-3040

5 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF )

FLORIDA, et al., )

6 )

PETITIONERS, )

7 )

v. )

8 )

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

9 DISTRICT, )

)

10 RESPONDENT, )

)

11 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et al., )

)

12 INTERVENORS. )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

14 150 West Flagler Street

Miami, Florida

15 March 16, 1993

9:00 a.m.

DEPOSITION OF PAUL LARSEN

20 Taken before JACKIE JOHNSON, Professional

21 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of

22 Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of Taking

23 Deposition filed in the above cause.

24 - - - - - - -

Page 1

Page 2

1 APPEARANCES

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS

PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK

4 Two South Biscayne Boulevard

One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636

5 Miami, Florida 33131

BY: Mark Kobelinkski, ESQ.

ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

8 ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIVISION

P.O. Box 663

9 Washington, D.C. 20044

BY: Geoffrey Garver, ESQ.

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS

POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH & KAUFMAN, LTD.

12 4000 International Place

100 S.E. Second Street

13 Miami, Florida 33131

BY: Patrick Cousins, ESQ.

Page 3

1 INDEX

2 Witness Direct Cross Redirect Recross

3 PAUL LARSEN

4 By Mr. Garver 3

8 EXHIBITS

9 NUMBER PAGE

10 1 [

Page 4

1 Thereupon --

2 PAUL LARSEN,

3 was called as a witness and, having been first duly

4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

5 MR. GARVER: We're here for the

6 continuation of the deposition of Paul Larsen

7 which commenced on October 15, 1992 and recessed

8 on October 16, 1992.

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED

10 BY MR. GARVER:

11 Q. Mr. Larsen, the last time we convened for

12 your deposition, your deposition was limited to your

13 factual testimony regarding the history of the

14 Federal Project, and this deposition contains no such

15 limitation. I am entitled to your answers regarding

16 all issues relevant to this proceeding, including

17 your anticipated expert testimony; is that consistent

18 with your understanding?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Mr. Larsen, the witness description that

21 was filed with the Division of Administrative

22 Hearings for the Florida Sugar Cane League, et

23 al. states that the subject matter of your expected

24 testimony is the nature and history of the Central

25 and Southern Florida Flood Control Project (Federal

Page 5

1 Project) Everglades hydroperiods, alterations,

2 dissolved oxygen, sampling, topographic analysis,

3 water level analysis, geographic and other features

4 of the Federal Project. Other areas of testimony may

5 be added as issues in case develop.

6 Does that still accurately describe the

7 subject matter of your expected testimony in this

8 proceeding?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. With respect to other areas of testimony

11 that may be added as issues in case develop, have any

12 such additional areas of testimony been added to the

13 subject matter of your expected testimony?

14 A. I'd have to look at the list again.

15 Q. I am reading Section B.

16 A. This is generally correct. The only other

17 possibility is, I may do some limited description of

18 soils, which is not included on that.

19 Q. Reading from this same witness description,

20 the substance of your expected testimony is described

21 as follows: Analysis of alleged violations of DO

22 levels in the Everglades Protection Area, effect of

23 Federal Project design and operation, hydroperiods,

24 topography and water levels in the EPA.

25 Does that still accurately describe the

Page 6

1 substance of your expected testimony?

2 A. With respect to dissolved oxygen, I will be

3 testifying about data and its accuracy and, again,

4 let me look at the list that you have got.

5 Q. I was just reading from Section 6C.

6 A. And I would add the word soils to the list

7 hydroperiods, topography and water levels.

8 Q. Mr. Larsen, have you reached your final

9 opinions with respect to your testimony that's

10 anticipated for final hearing in this proceeding?

11 A. Yes, I have.

12 Q. Have you read the second re-notice of your

13 deposition that requested production of documents in

14 addition to the documents you produced last Fall?

15 A. I have read it.

16 Q. Have you produced all the documents in your

17 possession that are responsive to the second

18 re-notice?

19 A. Yes, I believe I have.

20 Q. Do the documents that you produced include

21 documents related to your anticipated testimony

22 regarding soils?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you briefly describe to me what

25 documents you produced related to your anticipated

Page 7

1 testimony regarding soils?

2 A. The 1948 Soil Conservation Service report

3 as well as references to soils in other documents

4 that I have produced that are general design

5 memorandums and mass regulation manuals, etcetera.

6 Q. How many times have you been deposed

7 before?

8 A. There's been a number of times. I would

9 estimate 30.

10 Q. When were you first deposed?

11 A. It was likely to have been in the mid '70's

12 in conjunction with my work on the Marco Island

13 project.

14 Q. Have you had your deposition taken within

15 the last five years, other than the deposition I took

16 last Fall?

17 A. I believe I have.

18 Q. Can you recall specifically any depositions

19 that you had in the last probably five years?

20 A. Not off the top of my head.

21 Q. Have you been deposed before with respect

22 to issues relating to the Everglades?

23 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Other than in October,

24 Counsel?

25 MR. GARVER: Yes.

Page 8

1 THE WITNESS: I may have been, but I can't

2 recall them.

3 BY MR. GARVER:

4 Q. Have you ever been an expert witness

5 before?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How often have you served as an expert

8 witness?

9 A. Possibly ten times.

10 Q. Other than in connection with this

11 proceeding, in what subject areas have you served as

12 an expert witness?

13 A. In the subject areas of environmental

14 engineering, dissolved oxygen, and although I can't

15 recall the specific cases, I believe in land use,

16 soil in water contamination, and there may be others

17 that I can't recall.

18 Q. When did you serve as an expert witness in

19 the subject matter of dissolved oxygen?

20 A. I was an expert in a Division of

21 Administrative Hearings rule challenge ten or more

22 years ago.

23 Q. What was the nature of that Division of

24 Administrative Hearing rule challenge?

25 A. That the State of Florida standard was

Page 9

1 inappropriate.

2 Q. The State of Florida water quality standard

3 for dissolved oxygen; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Did you provide expert testimony in an

6 evidentiary hearing in that rule challenge?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Can you just briefly describe for me the

9 substance of your expert testimony?

10 A. Again, it's been more than ten years, but I

11 recall that I provided a description of the mechanism

12 resulting in dissolved oxygen levels in water. I

13 believe the testimony focused on dissolved oxygen in

14 estuaries and that I provided a description of the

15 dissolved oxygen mechanisms, but I provided data and

16 an analysis of dissolved oxygen data.

17 Q. On whose behalf were you acting as an

18 expert witness in that rule challenge?

19 A. I don't recall specifically, but it was a

20 rule challenge that was related to my work on the

21 Marco Island project.

22 Q. Do you recall if it was a government entity

23 that you were providing testimony on behalf of?

24 A. No. I believe it was a private entity.

25 Q. But you don't recall specifically what

Page 10

1 entity that was; is that correct?

2 A. It was likely to have been the Deltona

3 Corporation, but I don't recall for sure.

4 Q. Were you providing testimony in support of

5 the proposed dissolved oxygen standard?

6 A. No.

7 I believe I mentioned earlier that our

8 position was that the standard was inappropriate.

9 Q. And for what reasons was it your position

10 that the dissolved oxygen standard was inappropriate?

11 A. The standard was higher than natural

12 conditions.

13 Q. Do you recall what mechanisms that relate

14 to dissolved oxygen in water you described in your

15 testimony in that administrative rule challenge?

16 A. Again, it's been a long time, but the

17 mechanisms deal with the physical aeration process,

18 with biological processes in the water column and

19 with biological and chemical processes in the

20 underlying material, the benthic material. They

21 relate to the physical stirring of water in the water

22 column, thereby relating to such things as velocity,

23 and it relates to the input of what's most easily

24 described as dead material from beyond the study area

25 itself. It's generally described as an allochthonous

Page 11

1 input being inputs of material from beyond the study

2 area as well as what is called autoxithus or the

3 input of material from biological activity within the

4 estuary or within the water body.

5 Q. Do you recall what biological or chemical

6 processes specifically you described with respect to

7 dissolved oxygen in the water in that adminstrative

8 rule challenge?

9 A. All of that was an attempt to describe to

10 the hearing officer that the dissolved oxygen

11 process, a number of factors lead to the level of

12 dissolved oxygen at any given time in a water body.

13 Q. Specifically, what factors are you

14 referring to?

15 A. All the ones I mentioned earlier, the

16 reaeration, which is a physical process, the stirring

17 or mixing within the water column, the inputs of live

18 material resulting from biological activity of live

19 material in the water column, dead material that's

20 imported from beyond and basically oxygen demand in

21 the substrate or the benthic material underneath the

22 water column, and all of those integrate and result

23 in a dissolved oxygen regime in the water column at

24 any given time.

25 Q. Do you recall whether the dissolved oxygen

Page 12

1 standard that was being challenged in that

2 administrative rule challenge was adopted or not?

3 A. I don't recall the outcome.

4 Q. Will your testimony in this proceeding

5 relating to dissolved oxygen in any way refute

6 dissolved oxygen water quality standards?

7 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will object to the

8 form. I don't know what you mean by refute.

9 BY MR. GARVER:

10 Q. Do you understand the question?

11 A. Not really.

12 Q. Are you familiar with dissolved oxygen

13 standards that are applicable to the Everglades

14 Protection Area?

15 A. I haven't reviewed those recently. So I

16 couldn't give you a recitation of exactly what those

17 standards are at this time.

18 Q. Will your testimony in this proceeding in

19 any way challenge any dissolved oxygen standards

20 applicable to the Everglades?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can you briefly describe to me what expert

23 witness services you produced in the area of soil and

24 water contamination in previous matters?

25 A. I recall that it was in conjunction with an

Page 13

1 eminent domain case and that the subject of soil

2 and/or ground water contamination was a factor in the

3 evaluation of the property.

4 Q. And what, specifically, was the nature of

5 the expert witness services you provided in that

6 matter?

7 A. I recall and, again, it's nothing that I

8 have reviewed recently, that it had to do with a

9 description of the nature of the contamination and

10 what it might cost to remedy the situation.

11 Q. Do you recall what type of contamination

12 you were dealing with in that matter?

13 A. I recall that it was contamination

14 associated with an underground storage tank,

15 gasoline, or some sort of petroleum product.

16 Q. Who employed you as an expert witness in

17 the matter involving soil and water contamination?

18 A. Again, I recall it was the law firm of

19 Broad & Casell, but I could be mistaken.

20 Q. Do you recall who the client was?

21 A. I believe the attorney was Marwin Casell.

22 The client I can't recall.

23 Q. And when did you provide those expert

24 witness services relating to soil and water

25 contamination?

Page 14

1 A. I recall that it was more than two years

2 ago, but the specific date, I don't recall.

3 Q. Other than this proceeding, can you tell me

4 what other clients you provided expert witness

5 services on behalf of?

6 A. The law firm of Bidell, Ditmar, Duvalt,

7 Pillance and Gentry located in Jacksonville. The

8 client was Florida Rock Industries, and that was a

9 lawsuit in U.S. Claims Court concerning a taking of

10 property pursuant to wetlands regulations.

11 I performed expert testimony on land use

12 for the U.S. Justice Department. The attorney was

13 Mr. Fred Disheron, and the case was a Claims Court

14 taking case in Everglades City. The name of the case

15 was something like Gentgen, G-E-N-T-G-E-N.

16 I believe I provided expert testimony for

17 the Law Firm of Earle & Patchen on behalf of South

18 Dade Growers Group and, again, this is off the top of

19 my head, but I think that the issues had to do with

20 water deliveries of the South Florida Water

21 Management District and the potential for flooding.

22 I provided testimony on behalf of a civic

23 association in the West Coast of Florida, Miaka

24 River, something or other concerning the impacts of

25 the Siwer Treatment Land Spreading operation on

Page 15

1 nearby homeowners. There are others. I just at the

2 moment can't recall.

3 Q. Can you describe to me the nature of the

4 expert witness services you provided to on behalf of

5 the United States Justice Department?

6 A. The developer claimed that all economic use

7 of his property or a substantial portion of that use

8 had been affected by a denial of a Corps fill permit

9 to fill wetlands, and my testimony had to do with

10 alternate land uses that would have provided an

11 economic use.

12 Q. Do you recall what alternate land uses you

13 provided testimony regarding in that proceeding?

14 A. I developed a plan showing roads linking

15 upland islands and then a high density development on

16 the upland portion of the property.

17 Q. Do you recall what the outcome was of that

18 case that you provided testimony or expert witness

19 services for the Justice Department?

20 A. Yeah.

21 I believe the Justice Department prevailed.

22 Q. Did you testify in court or in an

23 evidentary hearing in that Justice Department case?

24 A. I recall it was a U.S. Claims Court

25 proceeding.

Page 16

1 Q. Did you actually provide testimony in court

2 in that proceeding?

3 A. I recall that I did.

4 Q. Can you describe to me the nature of the

5 expert witness services you provided on behalf of the

6 South Dade Growers regarding South Florida Water

7 Management District water deliveries?

8 A. I have very limited recall of that. I

9 remember the room. I remember that I testified. I

10 remember that Pete Rhoads also testified in that

11 matter, but I honestly don't recall any of the

12 details.

13 Q. When did you provide that testimony on

14 behalf of the South Dade Growers?

15 A. Again, I think it was more than seven years

16 ago.

17 Q. And when did you provide expert witness

18 services for the United States Justice Department in

19 the Gentgen case?

20 A. I believe it was around 1980, but the date

21 escapes me. I don't know.

22 Q. When did you provide expert witness

23 services on behalf of the civic group you described

24 on the West Coast of Florida?

25 A. That was perhaps five years ago.

Page 17

1 Q. Can you describe to me the nature of the

2 expert witness services you provided in that matter?

3 A. I believe that the question dealt with the

4 long-term uptake of nutrients by grasslands that were

5 to be irrigated with treated affluent, and that the

6 homeowners were concerned that the treatment would

7 not be adequate at all times of the year and that

8 then the runoff from that facility which was upstream

9 of their subdivision would affect them in a negative

10 way.

11 Q. And you were providing services on behalf

12 of those homeowners; is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And what specifically did you do in

15 connection with their concerns?

16 A. I reviewed the literature associated with

17 the uptake of nutrients. I provided testimony

18 concerning that literature. I provided maps of the

19 facility, and I recall that we determined that the

20 basis which the engineering firm that had designed

21 the facility had used was inappropriate.

22 Q. Were you deposed in that proceeding?

23 A. I don't recall. I may have been, but I

24 don't recall.

25 Q. In that proceeding, did you do any work

Page 18

1 relating to the impact on homeowners of the affluent

2 or the discharge runoff from the grasslands?

3 A. I don't recall the specifics, other than as

4 I mentioned, we found an error in the work by the

5 engineering company that had designed the facility.

6 Q. Do you recall what that error was?

7 A. They had relied on a literature source that

8 did not exist.

9 Q. Do you recall what the outcome of that

10 matter was?

11 A. I recall that the homeowners were

12 successful.

13 Q. Do you recall what the engineering firm was

14 in that matter?

15 A. I recall that it was Reynolds, Smith and

16 Hicks from Jacksonville, but I am not sure.

17 Q. Mr. Larsen, since the last deposition in

18 October, have you been out into the Everglades

19 Protection Area, any portion of it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What parts have you visited since October?

22 A. Conservation Area 2A and portions of 3A.

23 Q. How many times have you been to

24 Conservation Area 2A since October?

25 A. 2 or 3. I don't recall the exact number.

Page 19

1 Q. And do you recall when you were out in the

2 Conservation Area 2A since October?

3 A. Not exactly. I don't remember the dates.

4 Q. Do you recall roughly when it was?

5 A. During December and January.

6 Q. What was the purpose of your visits to

7 Conservation Area 2A?

8 A. To organize and coordinate work associated

9 with topographic surveys and to videotape and observe

10 work associated with dissolved oxygen measurements.

11 Q. In connection with the topo survey, do you

12 recall what portions of Conservation Area 2A you

13 visited since October?

14 A. An area generally between Gate S-11C and

15 Gate S-10A along the canal serves discharge waters

16 from all the S-10 structures, except S-10D or S-10E.

17 I think that's up in the northwest corner. I'd have

18 to check my records to find out exactly where I was,

19 but in general, that's what I recall.

20 Q. Were you in the interior of Conservation

21 Area 2A between 11C and the S-10's; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in connection with videotaping

24 dissolved oxygen measurements, what portions of

25 Conservation Area 2A did you visit since October?

Page 20

1 A. I recall that it was a location near Gauge

2 217 which is in the middle, essentially, in the

3 center of Conservation Area 2A. It's specifically at

4 a location known as ESP1 and 2, but this is strictly

5 by recall and not by way of reviewing my records.

6 Q. Is the area near Gauge 217 and ESP Station

7 1 and 2, is that the same location or is that a

8 different location?

9 A. Two different locations, but they are close

10 to each other.

11 Q. What does ESP stand for?

12 A. Environmental Services and Permitting.

13 Q. Do you know how far those two locations

14 that you just mentioned, Gauge 217 and ESP Stations 1

15 and 2 are from the S-10 structures?

16 A. Six or seven miles, but the location is

17 approximately in the center of Conservation Area 2A.

18 Q. To get to Gauge 217 and ESP Stations 1 and

19 2, how did you travel?

20 A. By airboat.

21 Q. Where did you embark on the airboat?

22 A. At a launching ramp near S-11C.

23 Q. Can you describe to me the extent of

24 cattail coverage in the two locations you described

25 as Gauge 217 and ESP Stations 1 and 2?

Page 21

1 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Objection as to what time

2 frame.

3 BY MR. GARVER:

4 Q. In your visit since October?

5 A. The vicinity of 217 may have very sparse

6 cattails. One of the stations, ESP 1 and 2, is a

7 large area of cattails surrounded by open water, and

8 the other one is a large area of sawgrass surrounded

9 by open water.

10 Q. How close to each other are those large

11 areas of cattail and large areas of sawgrass that you

12 just mentioned?

13 A. Approximately a quarter of a mile.

14 Q. The cattails you observed around 217, are

15 the cattails in that area evenly distributed?

16 A. They are very sparse, if at all.

17 I recall seeing a few, but the area is not

18 predominantly in any fashion a cattail area. There

19 may be a few.

20 Q. I believe in your last deposition you

21 testified that overall you have been to Water

22 Conservation Area 2A between 20 and 30 times; do you

23 recall that?

24 A. Yes. I mean, that would sound about right.

25 Q. And during those 20 to 30 visits, have you

Page 22

1 at any time had occasion to visit any portion of Area

2 2A immediately south of the S-10's going down roughly

3 10 miles?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you describe to me the vegetation you

6 observed in that region of Area 2A south of the

7 S-10's?

8 A. There are areas of open water, areas of

9 dense cattail, areas of dense sawgrass and areas

10 which are associations of species that are not either

11 cattail or sawgrass.

12 Q. Where have you observed areas of dense

13 cattails in the part of Area 2A south of the S-10's?

14 A. There's a zone of dense cattails which

15 stretches east and west generally south of the S-10

16 structures, and that zone of cattails varies in width

17 from a few hundred yards to two or three miles.

18 Q. How far downstream of the S-10's have you

19 observed these large areas of dense cattails?

20 A. Again, could you repeat that question?

21 (The question referred to was

22 thereupon read by the reporter as

23 above recorded.)

24 THE WITNESS: Again, in general, two or

25 three miles.

Page 23

1 BY MR. GARVER:

2 Q. Have you observed cattails beyond that zone

3 going down two or three miles from the S-10's?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you describe the cattail growth you

6 have observed beyond that two to three mile zone

7 downstream of the S-10's?

8 A. It becomes less dense and more patchy.

9 Q. Is the cattail growth in that zone

10 downstream of that two to three mile zone where you

11 have observed patchy cattail growth, is the cattail

12 in that area uniformally distributed?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Are there areas in that zone that's

15 downsteam of the two to three mile zone in which the

16 cattail growth is uniformally distributed?

17 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Over what aerial extent?

18 Also, objection as to form.

19 THE WITNESS: I think that that's a

20 difficult question to answer, because we are not

21 defining what you mean by, you know, the size of

22 the patch or the density of the cattails. So,

23 you know, using the general description of the

24 area being patchy, to me, that indicates that

25 it's not uniform.

Page 24

1 Perhaps if you looked at an area that was

2 ten feet by ten feet, the vegetation within that

3 would be uniform, but if you looked at an area

4 that was one hundred feet by one hundred feet,

5 it might not be. So that's why I am having

6 difficulty responding to your question.

7 BY MR. GARVER:

8 Q. When you say patchy, what do you mean?

9 A. That there are basically patches of

10 cattails and patches of other vegetation.

11 Q. What do you mean by patch?

12 A. Clumps, and I haven't done any measurements

13 to define the size of a patch. So I really can't

14 respond in a scientific way.

15 Q. Have you made any visual observations of

16 the size of a patch?

17 A. Yes, I have been there several times.

18 Q. Based on your visual observations, how

19 large are the patches you're describing?

20 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Objection to the form.

21 As to what vegetation, cattail or the other

22 vegetation the witness has mentioned?

23 MR. GARVER: He has only mentioned cattail

24 patches, Counsel.

25 MR. KOBELINKSKI: He stated there's a patch

Page 25

1 of cattail and other vegetation.

2 MR. GARVER: I am talking about cattail

3 patches.

4 THE WITNESS: Different sizes. Some of

5 them may be very small, and others may be large,

6 but again, I haven't made any specific

7 measurements of those areas.

8 BY MR. GARVER:

9 Q. When you say very small, what do you mean?

10 A. Perhaps something like ten feet by ten

11 feet.

12 Q. And when you say large, what do you mean?

13 A. Something with dimensions like five or six

14 hundred feet.

15 Q. Are the cattail patches you're describing

16 patches in which only cattails are growing?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Within these patches you're describing, are

19 the cattail plants evenly distributed within the

20 patches?

21 A. Generally, yes.

22 Q. What kind of vegetation have you observed

23 between these cattail patches you're describing?

24 A. Sawgrass, open water willows, vines, and

25 the open water areas may have floating aquatic

Page 26

1 plants.

2 Q. Have you observed any cattail plants in the

3 areas between these patches of cattails you

4 described?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And are the cattails that you have observed

7 between these cattail patches uniformally

8 distributed?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is there a point going downstream from the

11 S-10's after which you no longer see or have seen

12 these cattail patches during your visits to Area 2A?

13 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Object to the form, no

14 definition of what is meant by downstream.

15 BY MR. GARVER:

16 Q. By downstream, I mean going in the

17 direction of water flow, the general direction of

18 water flow on a two-way side of the S-10's?

19 A. There's an area in the middle in the center

20 portion of 2A which is relatively free of cattails,

21 but then there's, again, cattails along the southern

22 portion of 2A, and there's cattails along the

23 east/west canal that is located generally in the

24 southern end one-third of 2A. In addition, there are

25 cattails along the western side of 2A, and I recall a

Page 27

1 certain amount of cattails along the eastern side of

2 2A.

3 MR. GARVER: Mr. Kobelinkski, I'd

4 appreciate if you don't whisper in the witness'

5 ear while he is answering the question.

6 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I am sorry. I thought

7 you were finished. Since you were speaking with

8 Mr. Maffei, I thought you were finished, but

9 since there was a pause and you started talking

10 to Mr. Maffei, I likewise talked to Mr. Larsen.

11 MR. GARVER: Please don't presume when I am

12 listening or not listening.

13 MR. KOBELINKSKI: It has nothing to do with

14 your listening. I just assumed the witness was

15 done.

16 MR. GARVER: Can you repeat the question.

17 (The question referred to was

18 thereupon read by the reporter as

19 above recorded.)

20 BY MR. GARVER:

21 Q. How far downstream of the S-10's have you

22 gone towards the middle of 2A before you stop seeing

23 cattail patches?

24 A. I can't give you an exact distance, only

25 general distance. I think that --

Page 28

1 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will instruct the

2 witness not to speculate.

3 THE WITNESS: So my answer is, I can't tell

4 you in, you know, exact distance in miles or

5 meters.

6 BY MR. GARVER:

7 Q. Do you know approximately how many miles?

8 A. I would guess five or six miles.

9 Q. During your visits to Area 2A, have you

10 been in any areas in which you observed a sulferous

11 or rotten egg type odor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in what areas of Area 2A have you

14 detected such a sulferous or rotten egg type odor?

15 A. Basically, anyplace where I have had or

16 inadvertently disturbed the underlying soil column or

17 where I had occasion to take a soil sample. The

18 underlying soils seem to be -- although I haven't

19 done any particular study -- anaerobic which would

20 then lead to a smell of sulfer, hydrogen sulfer.

21 Q. Have you only detected the sulferous or

22 rotten egg type odor when you have disturbed or

23 sampled soils?

24 A. There may have been times when I was in an

25 area which had very low water when the soils would be

Page 29

1 either at the surface or very close to the surface

2 when similar odors were detected.

3 Q. Have you been in any areas in the

4 Everglades Protection Area where you have not

5 detected a sulferous or rotten egg type odor when you

6 have had disturbed or sampled soils?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in what areas of the Everglades

9 Protection Area have you not detected sulferous or

10 rotten egg type odor when you have disturbed or

11 sampled soils?

12 A. Basically, there have been times when I

13 have observed in all the areas that I have been where

14 sometimes you smell a hydrogen sulfide and sometimes

15 you don't.

16 Q. Are there any areas of the Everglades

17 Protection Area in which, based on your observations

18 and experience in making field trips, it is more

19 common to observe sulferous or rotten egg type odors?

20 A. I haven't made a study of that QUE sulfer

21 smell phenomena, and these are observations that were

22 not part of the reason I was there. It was things

23 that I happened to notice. So I honestly can't

24 answer the question in any scientific fashion.

25 Q. Can you answer that question in any

Page 30

1 fashion?

2 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

3 (The question referred to was

4 thereupon read by the reporter as

5 above recorded.)

6 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I can answer

7 the question.

8 BY MR. GARVER:

9 Q. Are you aware of anyone who is doing any

10 study of hydrogen sulfide in soils or waters of the

11 Everglades Protection Area?

12 A. Not to my knowledge. There may be.

13 Q. Since October, what portions of Water

14 Conservation Area 3A have you visited?

15 A. Only the area in the vicinity of the S-9

16 pump station.

17 Q. Have you been in the interior of Water

18 Conservation Area 3A?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Since October you have?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where have you been in the interior of

23 Water Conservation Area 3A?

24 A. In an area which is west of S9 and probably

25 within five miles of S9.

Page 31

1 Q. Can you describe to me the vegetation you

2 have observed in the portion of Area 3A you have

3 visited since October?

4 A. There's a large area of cattails

5 immediately west of S9 which becomes less dense as

6 you are at a distance of one or two miles from S9,

7 and then it becomes an area of open water sawgrass

8 and cattails, and then towards the western portion of

9 the area it becomes predominantly sawgrass and open

10 water.

11 Q. How far west of the S9 Structure did you go

12 before you reached the area that is predominantly

13 sawgrass and open water?

14 A. Again, by recall and not looking at a map,

15 it seems it was about two miles.

16 Q. What was your purpose for going to Area 3A

17 since October?

18 A. I believe that I videotaped a dissolved

19 oxygen procedure in that location, but I am not sure.

20 I also observed and videotaped some of the procedures

21 associated with topographic mapping.

22 Q. Is there an ESP sampling station in Water

23 Conservation Area 3A west of S9?

24 A. Yes, there is.

25 Q. And where is that sampling station located?

Page 32

1 A. I recall that it's one and-a-half or two

2 miles west of the S9 Station but, again, I am not

3 looking at a map.

4 Q. Does it have a number associated with it?

5 A. I believe that it's called 8, 9 and 10.

6 THE WITNESS: Can we take a two minute

7 break?

8 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

9 after which the following proceedings

10 were had:)

11 BY MR. GARVER:

12 Q. Mr. Larsen, I believe you testified that

13 when you were at or near Gauge 217 in 2A since

14 October, that the cattail growth in that area was

15 sparse; is that correct?

16 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Object to the

17 mischaracterization.

18 THE WITNESS: I believe I did say that.

19 MR. GARVER: How did I mischaracterize

20 that, Mr. Kobelinkski?

21 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Would you read that back.

22 (The question referred to was

23 thereupon read by the reporter as

24 above recorded.)

25 MR. KOBELINKSKI: In none of your prior

Page 33

1 questions as to cattail distribution did you ask

2 him as to whether this was subsequent to October

3 of 1992. You had asked no particular date. So

4 to the extent that he did not provide one, I

5 would say your adding a date to it as a

6 mischaracterization of the prior testimony.

7 MR. GARVER: I guess the Record speaks for

8 itself. I don't think you're right.

9 BY MR. GARVER:

10 Q. Even though the cattail growth was sparse

11 in the area of 217, were the cattails uniformally

12 distributed in that area when you were there since

13 October?

14 A. My observation is that there may have been

15 a sprig or tuft a blade or a plant of cattail in the

16 area of 217, but that in the immediate vicinity of

17 217, the cattails were sparse. They were rare, but

18 they were not necessarily absent.

19 Q. Mr. Larsen, you obtained your Bachelors of

20 Science and Civil Engineering from the University of

21 Illinois in 1963; is that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Can you briefly describe to me the course

24 requirements for your degree in civil engineering?

25 A. Civil engineers at that time took courses

Page 34

1 in hydraulics, hydrology, structures, pavements,

2 strength of materials, economics and then general

3 courses in physics, chemistry, math, social sciences.

4 I think that the courses that I took were typical of

5 civil engineering curricula at the time.

6 Q. If you can recall -- I realize it's been a

7 while -- but do you recall what was covered in your

8 course or courses on hydrology?

9 A. I think that the courses covered rainfall

10 evaporation, the topic of the hydrologic cycle, which

11 is relationship between rainfall runoff, evaporation

12 transpiration and then how that would translate into

13 stream flow, how it was affected by weather patterns,

14 geographic locations and seasonality. Beyond that, I

15 don't recall specifically what was included.

16 Q. While you were obtaining your Bachelors,

17 did you take any courses in ecology?

18 A. The answer is no. In 1958 through 1963

19 when I went to school, it was not something that was

20 available.

21 Q. Did you take any biology courses?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you take any courses dealing with

24 topography or topographic analysis?

25 A. Yes.

Page 35

1 Q. What kind of course work did you do

2 relating to topography or topographic analysis?

3 A. I took one year of courses in surveying at

4 a summer camp for approximately six weeks, which is

5 located near the town of Black Duck, Minnesota.

6 Q. In obtaining your Bachelors, did you do any

7 course work relating to dissolved oxygen or dissolved

8 oxygen testing?

9 A. Only as it would have been related to

10 courses in sewer treatment facilities.

11 Q. Did you, in obtaining your Bachelors, do

12 any course work involving vegetation mapping?

13 A. That would have been included in the

14 mapping portions of my surveying courses creating

15 topographic maps which was included in that

16 curriculum.

17 Q. Did you, in obtaining your Bachelors, do

18 any course work relating to water level analysis?

19 A. Yes. That would have been part of the

20 hydraulics and hydrology curriculum relative to

21 treatment and lake gauging, and it would have been

22 part of the surveying curriculum on hydrography.

23 Q. And did you, in obtaining your Bachelors,

24 do any course work relating to wetlands?

25 A. Possibly, as it related to the hydrology

Page 36

1 course on rainfall evapotranspiration relationships

2 and possibly in the surveying course where it related

3 to mapping of the lake and its surrounding areas.

4 Q. And you obtained your Masters in ocean

5 engineering from the University of Miami in 1971; is

6 that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Can you briefly describe to me what course

9 work requirements were involved in getting your

10 Masters?

11 A. The course work consisted of a series of

12 what they called core courses in the areas of

13 biologic, geologic, physical and chemical

14 oceanography which were the courses taken by all

15 students at the marine labs, and then there were

16 specific courses related to ocean engineering which

17 related to measurements, mapping and ocean

18 structures. Again, it's been more than 20 years

19 since I completed that work. So I don't recall all

20 the courses that I took.

21 Q. When you say ocean structures, is that

22 structures that are placed in the ocean?

23 A. Yeah.

24 It could deal with like an oil rig in the

25 ocean or a buoy and its mooring system.

Page 37

1 Q. Did you do any course work in obtaining

2 your Masters related to ecology?

3 A. The core courses which I took in 1968 and

4 1969 interrelated the effect of land mass on the

5 estuaries on the ocean and the relationships of

6 biological, physical, chemical and geological

7 parameters, but I don't know that the word ecology

8 was in vogue at the time, but those are some of the

9 subject matters of ecology. I don't know that the

10 courses were called ecology courses.

11 Q. Did you study any particular estuarine

12 systems in obtaining your Masters?

13 A. After I got my degree, I continued to work

14 at the Rosensteele School for two years as a research

15 associate. Either before I got my degree or after, I

16 worked on estuarine circulation problems in the

17 Bahamas and also did work for the EPA in conjunction

18 with their Big Cypress study, but I can't remember if

19 that work was done before or after I got my degree.

20 Q. In obtaining your Masters, did you do any

21 course work involving to topography or topographic

22 analysis?

23 A. Did you say involving my course work?

24 Q. Yeah, any course work involving topography

25 or topographic analysis?

Page 38

1 A. I recall that we went over the process of

2 mapping in the ocean and in estuaries, mapping

3 topography, and I recall that I may have taught that

4 segment because of my experience with the coast and

5 geodetic survey.

6 Q. In obtaining your Masters, did you do any

7 course work involving dissolved oxygen or dissolved

8 oxygen testing?

9 A. I believe it was necessarily covered in the

10 section on physical and chemical oceanography, but I

11 don't have exact recall of how it was covered.

12 Q. In obtaining your Masters, did you do any

13 course work involving water level analysis?

14 A. I believe that the topic and the various

15 methods of conducting water level analysis were

16 included in the course content and would have been a

17 part of any discussion of tides or of mapping in

18 estuarine areas.

19 Q. Did you write a Masters thesis?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the topic of your Masters thesis?

22 A. As I recall, it was an analysis of various

23 times of ocean buoys.

24 Q. What was involved in the analysis of ocean

25 buoys you did for your Masters thesis?

Page 39

1 A. I believe that I looked at different shapes

2 and different materials, and the shapes were oriented

3 towards providing lift in currents and the materials

4 looked at the possibility of building them out of

5 cement materials.

6 Q. Did you have any research or teaching

7 assistantships while get your Masters?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe those, please?

10 A. I recall that I graded papers for a

11 Professor Chang for either a senior level or graduate

12 level course in structural engineering and that I did

13 work for a professor by the name of John Maselle in

14 various estuary projects in the Miami area and

15 possibly in the Bahamas, but again, I am not clear as

16 to what I did before I got my degree and what I did

17 after I got my degree when I was working as a

18 research associate, but I do recall one task which

19 was definitely associated with my assistantship which

20 was for at least one semester grading papers for a

21 course taught by Professor Chang.

22 Q. When you were obtaining your Bachelors that

23 you received at Illinois, did you have any particular

24 emphasis on -- was there any particular area of civil

25 engineering that you focused on?

Page 40

1 A. Yeah. Everyone is required to select a

2 major, and for me it was the field of structures.

3 Q. Your resume lists several short courses. I

4 just want a brief description of those.

5 One is a short course you list relating to

6 wetlands policy; can you describe what that short

7 course was?

8 A. At this moment, I don't recall.

9 Q. Do you recall any short courses you took

10 relating to environmental auditing?

11 A. I have lectured on the topic of

12 environmental auditing, and I may have taken a course

13 at the Treo Center in Gainesville, but I don't recall

14 in specific.

15 Q. What is environmental auditing?

16 A. It's a process of assessing the

17 contamination status of land.

18 Q. Do you recall taking any short courses on

19 water quality?

20 A. I may have. I don't recall at this time.

21 Q. Do you recall any short courses that you

22 have taken since you got your Masters?

23 A. I may have. I don't recall the specifics

24 of any one at this time.

25 Q. You are a licensed professional engineer;

Page 41

1 is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. When did you obtain your professional

4 engineering license?

5 A. 1973, I believe.

6 Q. What were the requirements to obtain a PE

7 license in Florida?

8 A. I believe it was a completion of an

9 engineer in training exam, which is typically taken

10 in your senior year of college, completion of a

11 written exam, which was an engineer professional

12 engineers exam. The most important criteria, as I

13 understand it, is a listing of at least five years of

14 experience in the field of engineering between or

15 prior to taking the engineers written exam. You had

16 to be able to prove that, and at the time I don't

17 believe there was a requirement for a degree lower.

18 In other words, it was possible to be allowed to take

19 the exam if you could prove sufficient experience in

20 the field of engineering.

21 Q. Are there any continuing education

22 requirements connected to your professional

23 engineering license?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I am going to turn now to your employment

Page 42

1 history.

2 Were you employed after you obtained your

3 Bachelors and before you commenced your Masters work?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you do during that period?

6 A. I was accepted into the office or training

7 program for the Coast and Geodetic Survey, which I

8 completed, and then I served as a commissioned

9 officer in the Coast and Geodetic Survey for

10 approximately five years.

11 Q. What were your responsibilities as a

12 commissioned officer in the Coast and Geodetic

13 Survey?

14 A. That's easiest to describe in terms of the

15 three basic different jobs that I had. The first job

16 was as an officer in the crew of a ship called the

17 pioneer, which was a 300-foot vessel with a crew of

18 approximately 120 people. It was a deep sea

19 oceanographic vessel, and on that vessel I served as

20 a deck officer doing bridge watches as well as

21 working on various other research activities on the

22 vessel.

23 I participated in an oceanographic cruise

24 to the Alucian Islands in Hawaii as well as a six

25 month -- as part of the International Indian Ocean

Page 43

1 expedition, I was the navigation officer, meaning

2 that I was in charge of the ship's navigation. I

3 believe I was the supply officer, and I was in charge

4 of certain survey technicians doing data collection.

5 There was an effort made to allow the junior officers

6 to participate in the scientific program on the

7 vessel as well as learning and gaining experience in

8 the actual operation of the vessel.

9 I was sent to the navy diving school and

10 became a navy qualified scuba diver with a one month

11 course in Key West. I served then as the diving

12 officer on the vessel in charge of two other divers

13 beyond myself. We had a decompression chamber and

14 full diving capabilities.

15 I could elaborate more, but I don't think

16 you want all this detail. So on to the next general

17 job where I was transferred to become the executive

18 officer of a two ship two vessel operation where I

19 was the captain of the operation. I was in charge of

20 one vessel, and I was the captain executive officer

21 of the operation but captain of the second vessel.

22 This operation was called the wire drag boats, the

23 Hillguard and Waynerite, and our job was to locate

24 wrecks up and down the East Coast and the Gulf Coast

25 of the United States.

Page 44

1 The general technique was to drag a wire

2 between the two vessels which would snag on an

3 underwater obstruction, and then as a diver, I would

4 go back and swim along the wire until we located what

5 it was and could identify it. This involved very

6 precise navigation, because we were physically

7 clearing channels for navigation which then would

8 appear on the charts as an area where essentially the

9 United States Government guarantee that they wouldn't

10 hit anything. This is typically used for the

11 entrance channels to major ports.

12 In that operation, I was also in charge of

13 processing the data at the end of the year by

14 returning to the home port in Norfolk, Virginia and

15 working with full-time data processors there so that

16 there was a smooth flow of information which we had

17 collected to the people who would be creating the

18 finished product which would then be incorporated

19 into the charts.

20 After I think approximately a year

21 and-a-half in that operation, I was transferred to a

22 vessel called the Oceanographer, and I was part of

23 the new ship construction staff of that vessel. By

24 that time, I had been promoted to a full lieutenant,

25 and as I recall, I was initially the fifth officer on

Page 45

1 the vessel.

2 Again, I was the diving officer and in

3 charge of the survey technicians. My duties on the

4 vessel were to, again, spend approximately half of my

5 time standing bridge watches and approximately half

6 of my time participating in the scientific program in

7 the vessel and supervising the technicians as well as

8 to run the divers program on the vessel.

9 The ship was commissioned in Jacksonville,

10 and the first shakedown cruise was to observe a solar

11 eclipse off Buenes Aires, and then we came back,

12 finished the vessel and then embarked on a nine month

13 cruise around the world.

14 I returned to Seattle and was then

15 transferred to the last operation, which was to work

16 on a cooperative venture with the Coast Guard to

17 place lightweight buoys in the deep ocean to serve as

18 weather stations and was able to moor one of these

19 lightweight buoys near Bermuda in approximately three

20 miles of water and to have it survive a major storm.

21 I left the Coast Survey in 1968 to go to

22 school at the University of Miami, but then they

23 hired me back as a consultant the next Summer to put

24 out another one of these buoys, again, from a Coast

25 Guard vessel between Greenland and Labrador which

Page 46

1 also survived a major storm for about four months.

2 So I believe your question was to track

3 what happened in the five years between college and

4 going back to the University of Miami.

5 Q. That sounds like a pretty rich five years.

6 A. It was great.

7 Q. Can you just briefly describe to me the

8 research activities that were going on when you were

9 stationed on the Pioneer in the first part of those

10 five years?

11 A. Well, the activities were a full spectrum

12 associated with the Indian National Oceanographic

13 expedition of geologic biological oceanographic

14 measurement.

15 For example, I had extensive experience in

16 doing Winkler dissolved oxygen analyses which were

17 done on water analysis samples collected in Anson

18 bottles. We took cores of the ocean bottom which

19 were supervised by Ph.D. level geologists. We towed

20 plankton nets and had, you know, biologists aboard,

21 biological oceanographists. We had representatives

22 from the U.S. Weather Bureau taking continuous

23 weather readings.

24 It's interesting that on our trip to India

25 we did not have electronic navigation. This was in

Page 47

1 1964, and I remember one period of time when it was

2 cloudy for a week, and we became hopelessly lost,

3 because the only navigation in the Bay of Bengal was

4 by way of Sexton. So we had to steam over to the

5 Coast of India to find out where we were.

6 Q. Other than your Summer position back with

7 the Coast Survey after your first year in the Masters

8 program, did you have any other employment during the

9 years that you obtained your Masters?

10 A. Yes.

11 I was hired as a consultant by the

12 International Nickle Company to spend a Summer

13 looking for maganese nodules off a vessel they

14 chartered. It left from San Diego. I carried out

15 the work using T.V. cameras and dredges in the

16 Pacific between San Diego and Honolulu and then into

17 Honolulu.

18 Q. Did you have any other employment while you

19 were obtaining your Masters?

20 A. I mentioned those Summer jobs. Then I had

21 an assistantship and a scholarship to the University

22 of Miami, but I think I have covered it all. I could

23 have left something out.

24 Q. And what did you do after obtaining your

25 Masters? I believe you testify you continued as a

Page 48

1 research associate?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How long did you do that?

4 A. From 1971 through 1973.

5 Q. What were your responsibilities during that

6 period from 1971 to 1973?

7 A. I was basically involved in carrying out

8 field work associated with a project that the

9 University of Miami was doing in South Florida and in

10 the Bahamas.

11 I believe it was during that time that I

12 did the work for the EPA. We would have contracted

13 out, as I understand it, through the University.

14 I recall that I wound up spending almost

15 all my time working on projects associated with the

16 estuaries around Marco Island, the Deltona

17 Corporation having hired the University of Miami to

18 carry out that work.

19 Q. What specifically was involved in the

20 projects that you were involved in around Marco

21 Island during this period from '71 to '73?

22 A. I recall that I was in charge of installing

23 and operating a network of water level recorders

24 around Marco Island, and that meant that I had to

25 supervise their installation, and then I had to make

Page 49

1 at least weekly visits to each of the stations. I

2 believe there were eight different water level

3 recorders -- it could have been twice a week. I

4 can't recall -- to monitor the performance, collect

5 data, install new tapes, carry out maintenance of

6 those recorders and then work on processing the data.

7 Q. When you say water level recorders around

8 Marco Island, does that mean on land or in the water

9 around the island?

10 A. No.

11 Another word for a water level recorder is

12 a tide gauge, and these were located on docks on

13 Coast Guard navigation structures, sometimes on

14 stands that we would build ourselves, but they were

15 in the water and on the water.

16 The tide gauge consisted of a rather

17 cumbersome apparatus that would record water levels

18 on a punch paper tape in response to a float that

19 would go up and down with the tide in what was called

20 a stilling well.

21 Q. So those were continuous recorders?

22 A. Continuous in that they made a reading

23 every six minutes.

24 Q. And what did you do after you left the

25 Rosensteele School?

Page 50

1 A. As I mentioned, I discovered that I was

2 working full-time on projects related to the Marco

3 Island issue, and so I got a job directly with the

4 Deltona Corporation to continue doing the same work,

5 but for them directly instead of through the

6 University.

7 Q. And that was in 1973?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. How long did you continue to work on the

10 San Marco project for Deltona?

11 A. It's Marco Island, not San Marco. There's

12 a different island called San Marco.

13 Q. I am sorry. Excuse me.

14 A. I continued as an employee of the Deltona

15 Corporation until 1977.

16 Q. And for that entire period, were you

17 working on the Marco Island project?

18 A. Almost exclusively.

19 Q. What other responsibilities, other than

20 those in connection with the Marco Island project,

21 did you have with Deltona?

22 A. Deltona had other communities around the

23 state, and I may have worked briefly on some of the

24 environmental problems relating to those communities,

25 but that work would have been minor in comparison to

Page 51

1 the work on the Marco Island issue. I recall getting

2 involved in an issue of lake levels in a community

3 called Deltona.

4 Q. Excuse me?

5 A. A community called Deltona which was

6 located north of Orlando.

7 Q. What kind of a business is Deltona?

8 A. Deltona was a land development company and

9 were in the business of creating new towns, selling

10 land, selling houses, but they were a Florida

11 development company and had eight or so different

12 communities around the state that they began from

13 scratch and were building.

14 Q. Why did Deltona need to do the tide level

15 work that you were doing on Marco Island?

16 A. The issue at Marco Island -- one of the

17 issues at Marco Island had to do with water quality

18 and stay standards in man-made canals, and the water

19 level measurements were necessary in conjunction with

20 mathematical modeling of water quality in canals.

21 Q. Were there any particular water quality

22 standards in the canal that were of interest

23 to Deltona during the time that you were working

24 there?

25 A. I'd say that Deltona and the State of

Page 52

1 Florida were mutually interested in the dissolved

2 oxygen standard as a primary focus. There may have

3 been others, but the dissolved oxygen issue was of

4 major importance, as I recall it.

5 Q. Other than the tide level gauging work that

6 you did that you have already described, did you have

7 any other responsibilities in connection with the

8 Marco Island project when you were with Deltona?

9 A. Oh, yes.

10 Q. What other responsibilities did you have?

11 A. I was in charge of their ecology lab which

12 was headed up by a Ph.D. biologist and a staff of ten

13 or so other people, most of whom were college degree

14 ecologists, had a college degree ecology background.

15 However, I was not in charge of the day-to-day

16 operations.

17 Doctor Harmic was a resident at Marco

18 Island, and I was the person in Miami who company

19 management would look to whenever they had issues to

20 do with the ecology lab. So I interfaced with the

21 company management and also with Doctor Harmic.

22 Q. What kind of projects was the ecology lab

23 involved with during the time that you were at

24 Deltona?

25 A. It was a full scale program dealing with

Page 53

1 biology, Creole studies, sediments, dissolved oxygen,

2 other water quality parameters besides dissolved

3 oxygen, as well as coordinating work done by outside

4 consultants for Deltona, environmental issues.

5 For example, the University of Miami, many,

6 many of the staff members at the Rosensteele School

7 were involved in doing research projects, such as

8 Doctor Wayneless in Geology and Doctor Carpenter who

9 was the chairman of the Chemical Oceanography

10 Department, Doctor Vandekreigen from the Ocean

11 Engineering Department, Doctor Rosser from the

12 Biology Department, Doctor Heald and others such that

13 it was a research effort that involved an on-site

14 ecology lab, on-site staff and then the University of

15 Miami and other consultants who would carry out

16 specific studies and be assisted by the staff in the

17 Ecology Lab.

18 Q. What was the nature of the dissolved oxygen

19 studies that Deltona undertook at Marco Island while

20 you were there?

21 A. It was a long-term over many months program

22 to visit specific stations over and over at different

23 times of the day to record dissolved oxygen values,

24 both, in natural areas and in existing man-made

25 canals.

Page 54

1 Q. And what was your role, if any, in those

2 dissolved oxygen studies?

3 A. My role was, to a limited degree, to

4 participate in them directly, but I was not living in

5 Marco Island. So that was somewhat limited. But my

6 job description was environmental coordinator for the

7 corporation. So I was in charge of ensuring that the

8 data was collected in a fashion that was acceptable

9 to the consultants for the University of Miami that

10 were also working on the project and not to say that

11 I was simply an intermediary between them in the

12 Ecology Lab. We all worked on them together. But my

13 job was to coordinate the process and get the job

14 done using all the resources available.

15 Q. Can you describe to me the dissolved oxygen

16 sampling and testing methodology that was used in

17 connection with the Marco Island project?

18 A. We used a combination of YSI dissolved

19 oxygen meters and actual samples, water samples which

20 are analyzed using the Winkler method.

21 Q. Were, both, the YSI dissolved oxygen meters

22 and the Winkler method used?

23 A. The Winkler method is generally accepted as

24 a calibration standard, and so the YSI meters which

25 were electronic dissolved oxygen meters were

Page 55

1 calibrated on a daily basis against the Winkler

2 method, both, in the laboratory and in the field.

3 Q. More precisely, how were the YSI meters

4 calibrated to the Winkler method?

5 A. The YSI meter, in general, would be used to

6 measure dissolved oxygen in -- as I recall, and again

7 it's been 20 years or so -- a location, and then a

8 water sample would be selected from that same

9 location and then analyzed. There's more of a check.

10 The actual calibration was done in a pail

11 of water that had been saturated. That means air had

12 been bubbled through the water in the pail such that,

13 in theory, the dissolved oxygen had reached its

14 saturation point, which is like as much dissolved

15 oxygen as the water can hold without giving off

16 dissolved oxygen.

17 Then as I recall -- and again, it's been 20

18 years -- the samples from that pail would be analyzed

19 using the Winkler method, which is a chemical process

20 that's accepted as a standard calibration standard.

21 So I think I have been responsive to your question.

22 I am not sure.

23 Q. When you say the Winkler method is

24 generally accepted as a calibration method or

25 standard, I forget what you called it, who is it

Page 56

1 generally accepted by?

2 A. The EPA.

3 Q. Just so I understand the calibration that

4 was done.

5 The saturated sample in the bucket would be

6 tested? A sample from that would be tested with the

7 Winkler method; is that correct?

8 A. I think so, but I don't remember. We had

9 an elaborate protocol that we went through, and I

10 can't remember what specifically the steps were.

11 Q. During the time that you were at Deltona,

12 were you involved with any topographic analysis?

13 A. I recall that I was involved in

14 hydrographic analysis, which is the topography

15 features under water, but I don't think it was in a

16 major way.

17 Q. Well, while you were obtaining your

18 Bachelors or Masters, did you do any course work

19 relating to soils?

20 A. At the undergraduate level, I would have

21 dealt with soils in courses on foundations, and at

22 the graduate level, in courses on geology and

23 sediments, you would be evaluating cores from under

24 water.

25 Q. When you left -- you left Deltona in 1977;

Page 57

1 is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And what did you do after you left Deltona

4 in 1977?

5 A. I formed my own company, Larsen &

6 Associates and continued basically to work for

7 Deltona as an independent contractor instead of as an

8 employee.

9 Q. For how long did you continue working for

10 Deltona after you formed Larsen & Associates?

11 A. With a gradually diminished role, over a

12 course of four or five years.

13 Q. What kind of business is Larsen &

14 Associates?

15 A. We're environmental engineers.

16 Q. And how many other employees are there?

17 A. Six others.

18 Q. What are the duties and responsibilities of

19 those other employees, briefly?

20 A. Kevin Plute is a draftsman and CAD and our

21 GIS operator, and I believe he has an Associates

22 degree from a school in Illinois, Joliet College.

23 Mark McKuen is a chemical engineer from a

24 school in North Carolina. It's either Duke or the

25 school in Raleigh. I can't recall which one at the

Page 58

1 moment. Mark works mainly in the area of evaluating

2 and cleaning up sites that are contaminated.

3 Glen Homeyer has a degree in construction

4 management and has extensive experience in carrying

5 out field work. He is the kind of guy that can build

6 anything and do anything.

7 Then I have three secretaries.

8 Q. Where is Larsen & Associates' office

9 located?

10 A. In One Biscayne Tower in Miami, Florida.

11 Q. Do you have a laboratory at Larsen &

12 Associates?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Does Larsen & Associates own any water

15 quality sampling or monitoring equipment?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What kind of equipment, water quality

18 sampling and monitoring equipment does Larsen &

19 Associates own?

20 A. We have water level recorders, YSI

21 dissolved oxygen meters, hydrolab dissolved oxygen

22 meters which also measure other chemical parameters,

23 physical parameters. We have various other equipment

24 we use to ascertain PH and conductivity in

25 conjunction with water level samples from monitor

Page 59

1 wells. We have surveying equipment we use to

2 sustained levels and locations and various other

3 assorted field equipment, such as devices for

4 collecting sediment samples. I think that's a

5 somewhat complete list, but I could have left

6 something out.

7 Q. At the present time, how many ongoing

8 projects does the Larsen & Associates have?

9 A. At this moment, maybe 15.

10 Q. How many of those are you involved in?

11 A. Five or so.

12 Q. Can you briefly describe to me what these

13 projects are?

14 A. I represent a coalition of rock mining

15 companies in their effort to have a concept for a

16 lake belt west of Miami become sort of a general

17 permit and to define the land use for that area which

18 encompasses some 80 square miles.

19 In that regard, the state legislature

20 created a lake belt implementation committee which is

21 chaired by Alan Milledge who is the former chairman

22 of the Water Management District.

23 The Corps of Engineers is preparing an

24 environmental impact statement on the concept, and

25 Dade County DERM is cooperating in facilitating a

Page 60

1 biological study of the area, and I understand that

2 the EPA will be doing water quality studies.

3 I am also doing individual permitting work

4 for Vulcan Materials Corporation and Florida Rock

5 Industries, associated with their quarry operations

6 in both Dade and Broward County.

7 I am working on a contaminated soil project

8 on the Miami River, a project called Aimco Scrap Yard

9 where after over 50 years of scrap operations, the

10 soils have become contaminated with lead, and we're

11 designing and securing approval for a plan to

12 remediate that contamination by solidifying the soils

13 with cement. And of course, I am working on this

14 project. There may be others, but those are the

15 major ones that come to mind at this moment.

16 I am also doing individual permitting work

17 for Tarmac of Florida, Inc., which is also a rock

18 mining company.

19 Q. Your resume states that you have extensive

20 experience dealing with Army Corps of Engineers,

21 Florida Department of Environmental Regulation, and

22 the South Florida Water Management District, Dade

23 County DERM and the Dade County Building and Zoning

24 Department.

25 Can you describe the experience you have

Page 61

1 had dealing with the Corps of Engineers?

2 A. The Corps of Engineers was heavily involved

3 in the Marco Island issue, and as the federal agency

4 which has permitting authority over wetlands and

5 starting with the Deltona project and in all the

6 projects for rock mining off other land development,

7 Corps of Engineers has been involved in, and I have

8 worked with them through the Jacksonville office in

9 permitting matters. So my involvement with the Corps

10 started in approximately 1973 and has continued until

11 now.

12 Q. What experience have you had dealing with

13 the Florida Department of Environmental Regulation?

14 A. Again, starting with the Marco Island

15 project, the Florida DER or its predecessor agency

16 was in charge of water quality certification, and

17 they were the agency that had to certify the quality

18 of the water in the proposed canals. So my work with

19 DER started in 1973 and continues to the present day

20 in that they are involved in providing wetland

21 permits for many of my clients, and that involves

22 water quality certification.

23 Q. And what experience do you have dealing

24 with the South Florida Water Management District?

25 A. I have worked on a few consumptive use

Page 62

1 permits, well permits which you have to obtain from

2 the Water Management District. The Water Management

3 District is involved in the lake belt plan in that it

4 is considered to be one of the, what they call, a

5 facility which has potential for conserving water and

6 reducing the quantity of water that is required to be

7 supplied to urban areas by the Conservation Areas. I

8 have been working very closely with people in their

9 planning staff on that project.

10 Q. Your resume also states that you have done

11 some lectures for the University of Florida Center

12 for Training Research.

13 Can you describe to me what lecturing you

14 have done for that organization?

15 A. I recall two specific times, one on the

16 issue of environmental auditing and the other on a

17 seminar that they presented on being an expert

18 witness. I could be wrong. It's strictly by recall,

19 but I recall specifically the one on being an expert

20 witness.

21 Q. When did you do that lecturing?

22 A. Within the last five or six years, but I

23 don't recall the date.

24 Q. Other than your work in connection with the

25 proceeding we are involved in, have you done any

Page 63

1 project for or on behalf of the Florida Sugar Cane

2 League?

3 A. Not other than this general area that we're

4 dealing with, no.

5 Q. Have you done any project other than the

6 proceeding that we are involved in for United States

7 Sugar Corporation?

8 A. Not that I can recall.

9 Q. Other than the proceeding project relating

10 to the proceedings we are involved in, have you done

11 any project for New Hope South, Incorporated?

12 A. Not that I can recall.

13 Q. Other than in relationship to the

14 proceeding we are involved in, have you done any

15 project for the Cities of Belle Glade or Clewiston?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What work have you done for the Cities of

18 Belle Glade or Clewiston?

19 A. I believe that my early involvement in this

20 issue starting in approximately 1989 was done for

21 Belle Glade and Clewiston.

22 Q. What did your work on behalf of Belle Glade

23 and Clewiston involve?

24 A. I know that I attended some meetings and I

25 reviewed materials for their attorneys, but

Page 64

1 specifically, I would not be able to sort out exactly

2 what I did for them as opposed to what I have done

3 for others in this case.

4 Q. Did you do any field work on behalf of

5 Belle Glade or Clewiston?

6 A. I may have.

7 Q. When you say you're unable to sort out what

8 you did for Belle Glade and Clewiston from other work

9 you have done, why is that?

10 A. My primary contact in this case has been

11 through the Law Firm of Peeples, Earl & Blank, and

12 actually my bills were submitted to the law firm. So

13 I had limited contact with any of the clients

14 directly involved. So from a recall, it's kind of a

15 blur in terms of -- I have been working on this

16 project, but specifically which particular tasks were

17 for which particular clients are not available to me

18 through recall.

19 Q. Were you paid separately for the work you

20 did for Belle Glade and Clewiston or work you did for

21 other entities?

22 A. I believe I was.

23 Q. Are you still doing work on behalf of Belle

24 Glade and Clewiston?

25 A. I don't believe I am, no. I haven't

Page 65

1 recently, anyway.

2 Q. Was the rate that you charged for Belle

3 Glade and Clewiston the same rate that you charge for

4 your work for other entities?

5 A. I believe it was.

6 Q. What was that rate?

7 A. A hundred dollars an hour.

8 Q. Do you charge an additional amount for or a

9 higher amount for court appearances or giving sworn

10 testimony?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Other than in relationship with the

13 proceeding we are involved in, have you done any

14 project for any agricultural interests in South

15 Florida?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what projects were those?

18 A. I have done work for a group called the

19 South Dade Land Corporation, I believe the Florida

20 Lime and Avocado Growers and possibly another group

21 called the South Dade Farm Bureau, but I am not sure.

22 Q. What did you do on behalf of the Lime and

23 Avocado Growers?

24 A. They asked me to do a hydrologic analysis

25 of the effect of a major storm event which flooded

Page 66

1 several of their facilities, their groves four or

2 five years ago.

3 Q. And the two South Dade farming interests

4 you mentioned, what project have you done for them?

5 A. Again, I recall testifying on their behalf

6 in a hearing which, again, I recall was associated

7 with the water levels associated with changing the

8 deliveries to Everglades Park. For the South Dade

9 Land Corporation, I did an environmental audit of the

10 area called the Frog Pond.

11 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Mr. Garver, if you're not

12 going to break for lunch soon --

13 (Discussion off the record.)

14 BY MR. GARVER:

15 Q. For the work that you did on behalf of

16 Belle Glade and Clewiston, were you hired to provide

17 expert testimony in any judicial or other evidentiary

18 proceedings?

19 A. I may have been. I don't recall that that

20 either was or was not a specific objective at the

21 time that I did the work.

22 MR. GARVER: All right. Let's take a lunch

23 break.

24 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

25 after which the following proceedings

Page 67

1 were had:)

2 BY MR. GARVER:

3 Q. Mr. Larsen, I believe you testified that

4 you began working in 1989 on projects related to the

5 proceeding we are now involved in; is that correct?

6 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.

7 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will object to the

8 form.

9 Counsel, just so I make sure -- the witness

10 is confused, when you refer to the proceeding we

11 are now involved in, are you also including in

12 that the federal litigation between the United

13 States and the South Florida Water Management

14 District?

15 MR. GARVER: As a proceeding related to

16 this proceeding, yes.

17 MR. KOBELINKSKI: That's fine.

18 BY MR. GARVER:

19 Q. And I believe you testified that your work

20 beginning in 1989 was done, in part, for Belle Glade

21 and Clewiston; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were there any other entities that you

24 performed projects with related to this proceeding or

25 related proceedings starting in 1989?

Page 68

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What other entities?

3 A. I believe they are listed on your request

4 for my deposition, New Hope.

5 Q. Is it New Hope South, Incorporated,

6 U.S. Sugar Corporation and Florida Sugar Cane League?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. Other than Belle Glade, Clewiston and the

9 Florida Sugar Cane League, New Hope South and

10 U.S. Sugar, were there any other entities on whose

11 behalf you have been doing projects related to this

12 proceeding or related proceedings?

13 A. You might consider that my participation in

14 the SAGE Committee was somehow related to this, in

15 which case that work was done for Flo Sun.

16 Q. Who contacted you in 1989 to start working

17 on projects related to this proceeding and other

18 related proceedings?

19 A. I don't recall specifically, but it was

20 most probably Mr. Earl.

21 Q. And do you recall when you were first

22 contacted?

23 A. I don't recall the date.

24 Q. What were you asked to do when you were

25 first contacted in 1989?

Page 69

1 A. I recall that I was asked to assist the

2 attorneys, but I can't remember specific tasks.

3 Q. Starting in 1989 when you were first

4 contacted and going into the present, I want to try

5 and get a chronology of the projects that you worked

6 on related to this proceeding or the federal

7 litigation, the related federal litigation.

8 Do you recall what the first project you

9 worked on was starting in 1989?

10 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Let me just impose an

11 objection to the extent that this question seeks

12 information, for instance, beyond, for example,

13 the comment if he was requested to assist

14 counsel in preparing for deposition.

15 I will not allow the witness to testify as

16 to the specific conversations and/or manner in

17 which he has assisted in non testifying matters.

18 So to the extent you're just looking for general

19 areas, that's fine, testifying areas. Obviously

20 you're allowed to explore more, but work product

21 where it's not related to his testimony where he

22 was just assisting counsel in the litigation, I

23 will instruct him that that is work product

24 privileged information. Other than describing

25 in broad catergories, you can go ahead and

Page 70

1 respond.

2 BY MR. GARVER:

3 Q. Yeah, do you recall what my question was?

4 A. I believe you asked me for a chronology of

5 things that I have done associated with this matter

6 starting in 1989 and continuing to the present.

7 Q. Right.

8 A. And if that's correct, I can possibly give

9 you an outline.

10 Q. Please do that.

11 A. I was asked to look into the possibility of

12 using satellite imagery to detect changes in

13 vegetation, and pursuant to that, I eventually worked

14 with a company called ERIN and worked with them in

15 their attempts to analyze vegetation changes.

16 Q. What timeframe were you involved in the

17 satellite imagery work?

18 A. I recall that it was during 1990, but I

19 don't recall the specifics or the exact dates.

20 Q. In what area were you going to be looking --

21 geographically, what area were you going to be

22 looking at for vegetative changes with satellite

23 imagery?

24 A. The Water Conservation Areas.

25 Q. Was that satellite imagery work ever done?

Page 71

1 A. A substantial amount of work was done, but

2 the results proved inconclusive.

3 Q. In what regard were the results

4 inconclusive from that satellite imagery work?

5 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will object to the

6 question to the extent that Mr. Larsen is not a

7 witness as to satellite mapping.

8 ERIN is not listed as an expert witness.

9 To the extent that they are a non testifying

10 expert that was consulted, I will not allow the

11 witness to testify about that matter since

12 that's privileged.

13 MR. GARVER: You're considering all that

14 satellite imagery work to be priveleged work

15 product?

16 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I don't believe I have

17 any expert testifying about it. So it would be

18 a non testifying expert that was consulted.

19 MR. GARVER: You're instructing Mr. Larsen

20 not to answer my question at all; is that

21 correct?

22 MR. KOBELINKSKI: If you will read back the

23 last question, I will instruct him not to

24 respond.

25 (The question referred to was

Page 72

1 thereupon read by the reporter as

2 above recorded.)

3 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Again, I will instruct

4 the witness not to respond as to privileged

5 communications with a non testifying expert,

6 yes.

7 BY MR. GARVER:

8 Q. Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my

9 question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instruction?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Was there any field work involved in the

12 work involving ERIN and satellite imagery?

13 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Same privileged grounds.

14 I will instruct the witness not to respond to

15 that question.

16 BY MR. GARVER:

17 Q. Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my

18 question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instruction?

19 A. Yes, I refuse.

20 Q. And I understand you're going in

21 chronological order starting in 1989. Then you

22 mentioned this ERIN satellite imagery work. Am I

23 correct in assuming you're going in chronological

24 order?

25 A. I'm attempting to do it in chronological

Page 73

1 order. However, I may get things slightly out of

2 order, but it was an early effort.

3 Q. What other projects have you been involved

4 with related to this proceeding or related

5 proceedings?

6 A. I worked on preparing a vegetation map of

7 Conservation Area 2A.

8 Q. And during what time period were you

9 involved in doing vegetation mapping with

10 Conservation Area 2A?

11 A. I recall it was in 1989 and possibly early

12 1990.

13 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I'd like to take a short

14 break and talk to my witness.

15 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,

16 after which the following proceedings

17 were had:)

18 BY MR. GARVER:

19 Q. Mr. Larsen, I want to back up a second just

20 a little bit here.

21 In the work that you did involving

22 satellite imagery and ERIN, were there any other

23 people involved in that project?

24 A. Other than?

25 Q. Other than ERIN?

Page 74

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who were those people?

3 A. I believe that Mike Dennis accompanied me

4 on a helicopter ride of the Conservation Areas along

5 with a representative of their's.

6 Q. Any other people?

7 A. Not that I can recall.

8 Q. Was Curtis Richardson at all involved in

9 that work involving ERIN and satellite imagery?

10 A. I think he was aware of it but didn't

11 participate in any fashion.

12 Q. Were you looking for any particular

13 vegetative changes in the satellite imagery work that

14 you were doing?

15 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will instruct the

16 witness not to respond on the previously stated

17 privilege.

18 BY MR. GARVER:

19 Q. Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my

20 question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instruction?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Can you describe to me the methodology that

23 was employed in conducting the satellite imagery work

24 with ERIN?

25 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will instruct the

Page 75

1 witness not to respond based upon the previously

2 stated privilege.

3 BY MR. GARVER:

4 Q. Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my

5 question based on Mr. Kobelinski's instructions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me what kinds of data, if any,

8 you gathered during your work involving satellite

9 imagery with ERIN?

10 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will instruct the

11 witness not to respond based upon previously

12 stated privilege.

13 BY MR. GARVER:

14 Q. Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my

15 question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instructions?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Larsen, can you describe to me what

18 kind of equipment was used in conducting the

19 satellite imagery work that you mentioned?

20 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will instruct the

21 witness not to respond based upon previously

22 stated privilege.

23 BY MR. GARVER:

24 Q. Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my

25 question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instructions?

Page 76

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Prior to the work you conducted on

3 satellite imagery in connection with this proceeding

4 or related proceedings, have you been involved in any

5 other satellite imagery work?

6 A. Is the question prior to 1989?

7 Q. Prior to 1989, yes.

8 A. Only to the extent that we used satellite

9 imagery to delineate mangrove areas in the Marco

10 Island case.

11 Q. What was your involvement in using

12 satellite imagery to identify mangrove areas in the

13 Marco Island case?

14 A. Simply to use hard copies of the satellite

15 imagery upon which mangrove areas are fairly easy to

16 distinguish from other vegetation zones to map the

17 extent of mangroves on the southwest coast of

18 Florida.

19 Q. Did you, yourself, do the photo

20 interpretation of the mapping based on the satellite

21 imagery in the Marco Island case?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your work with Marco Island, how did you

24 know how to identify mangroves on satellite images?

25 A. Their signature on the photo was very easy

Page 77

1 to distinguish from other adjacent vegetation, and so

2 I was able to utilize that signature change from

3 areas that I knew and locations that I knew and

4 transfer it to other areas along the southwest coast.

5 Q. How were you familiar with the signature

6 for mangroves on those satellite images?

7 A. It was visually apparent that there was

8 vegetation discontinuity on the photo. In large

9 measure, mangrove areas would give way to prairies,

10 and there was a substantial change in the color and

11 the texture in the photo as you crossed from a

12 mangrove area into a non mangrove area.

13 Q. Have you ever taken any course work or

14 other training in interpreting satellite images for

15 vegetative changes?

16 A. I may have attended a seminar, but I don't

17 recall, other than that possibily, that I received

18 any training.

19 Q. When was the work that you were involved in

20 with ERIN involving satellite imagery in this

21 proceeding or the related proceedings completed?

22 A. I don't recall exactly, but I believe it

23 was early in 1991.

24 Q. Can you describe to me any reports or

25 documentation that there are of that work involving

Page 78

1 satellite imagery?

2 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I am sorry. Could you

3 read that back.

4 (The question referred to was

5 thereupon read by the reporter as

6 above recorded.)

7 MR. KOBELINKSKI: Just so I understand,

8 Counsel, you're asking for the contents of the

9 reports or just a description of whether there

10 are reports, just so I understand your question?

11 MR. GARVER: Well, actually, I'd like to

12 know whether there are any reports or

13 documentation and what the contents are.

14 MR. KOBELINKSKI: If you ask them

15 separately, I will allow the witness to respond

16 as to whether there are any reports.

17 As to the contents of them, I will not be

18 allowing the witness to respond.

19 BY MR. GARVER:

20 Q. Are there any reports or documentation of

21 the work that you performed in roughly 1990 to 1991

22 involving satellite imagery, including photographs?

23 A. Reports were prepared.

24 Q. How many reports were prepared?

25 A. Only one, to my knowledge.

Page 79

1 Q. And who prepared that report?

2 A. I believe it was prepared by ERIN.

3 Q. When was that report prepared?

4 A. I am sorry?

5 Q. When was that report prepared by ERIN?

6 A. I recall that it was in 1991.

7 Q. You don't recall when in 1991 that report

8 was prepared; is that right?

9 A. No. My recollection of the timeframe is

10 approximate.

11 Q. And did you read that report?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you describe to me what that report

14 said?

15 MR. KOBELINKSKI: I will instruct the

16 witness not to respond under the previously

17 stated privilege.

18 BY MR. GARVER:

19 Q. Mr. Larsen, do you refuse to answer my

20 question based on Mr. Kobelinkski's instructions?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. I believe the next project you stated you

23 were involved in was vegetation mapping of

24 Conservation Area 2A; is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 80

1 Q. When was that vegetation mapping work

2 performed?

3 A. I recall it was in 1989.

4 Q. What portions of the Water Conservation

5 Area 2A were mapped during that work?

6 A. The northern portion.

7 Q. When you say northern portion, can you be

8 more specific about what portion of 2A you're

9 describing?

10 A. Perhaps the northeast portion.

11 Q. Does that include the portion of

12 Conservation Area 2A immediately downstream of the

13 S-10 structures?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall on whose behalf the

16 vegetation mapping work was done?

17 A. I recall that it was done at the request of

18 the law firm. The specific client involved, as I

19 mentioned before, I don't recall.

20 Q. You don't remember whether you billed the

21 law firm, whether you charged Belle Glade or

22 Clewiston for that work or whether you charged

23 another entity for that?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. Were any other people involved in that

Page 81

1 vegetation mapping?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And who were they?

4 A. I recall there was a botanist from

5 Environmental Services and Permitting and a botanist

6 from Breedlove, Dennis and Associates, and I believe

7 that there was a botanist from one other firm that I

8 can't recall.

9 Q. Was John Davis involved at all in that

10 vegetation mapping work?

11 A. No, other than as the boss of whoever it

12 was from his firm that was the botanist that

13 accompanied me.

14 Q. His firm is ESP?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Was Bill Patrick involved at all in that

17 vegetative mapping work?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was Curtis Richardson involved in that

20 vegetation mapping work?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was Chris Craft involved at all in that

23 vegetation mapping work?

24 A. No, not in the work itself.

25 Q. Were any of the people that I mentioned,

Page 82

1 John Davis, Bill Patrick, Curtis Richardson, Chris

2 Craft involved in reviewing any of the vegetation

3 mapping work?

4 A. Not prior to the completion of a report.

5 Q. What was the purpose of the vegetation

6 mapping you performed in Conservation Area 2A?

7 A. To delineate vegetation associations south

8 of the 10 structures.

9 Q. I am sorry. To delineate vegetation

10 associations?

11 A. Associations south of the 10 structures.

12 Q. What do you mean by vegetation

13 associations?

14 A. For example, areas that are an association

15 of different plants, but where one plant may

16 predominate as opposed to a different area where

17 other plants may be more numerous.

18 Q. Can you describe to me how the vegetation

19 mapping work was carried out?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please do that.

22 A. The location of the helicopter was

23 determined by Loran, and the procedure was to fly

24 along a line until the botanists who were sitting in

25 the back of the helicopter with the doors off and had

Page 83

1 an unobstructed view would tell me that the

2 associations had changed significantly.

3 At that time the helicopter would stop and

4 whoever the botanist is would read off the list of

5 major plant species and their estimation of percent

6 cover by each of those species. I would record in a

7 field book the Loran position and the list of species

8 and their percent covered, and then the helicopter

9 would proceed further along the line until another

10 change in vegetation association was noted, at which

11 time we'd stop and repeat the procedure.

12 Q. Did you fly several transects south of the

13 S-10 structures?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many transects did you fly?

16 A. I recall that there were perhaps ten, maybe

17 more, maybe less, but approximately ten.

18 Q. For each transect, how did you determine

19 when to stop flying? In other words, how did you

20 determine the end point of the transect?

21 A. When we were in an area that was more than

22 99-percent sawgrass.

23 Q. Do you recall when these helicopter flights

24 were made for the vegetation mapping?

25 A. I recall it was 1989.

Page 84

1 Q. Do you recall more specifically when in

2 1989 it was done?

3 A. My recollection is it's the Fall.

4 Q. Do you still have your field notes from

5 that vegetation mapping overflight work?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have any other documentation of the

8 helicopter overflight portion of the vegetation

9 mapping work other than your field notes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What other documentation?

12 A. I prepared a report and maps summarizing

13 information.

14 Q. Did you have a work plan or a study plan

15 prior to conducting the helicopter overflights, a

16 written study plan or work plan?

17 A. I don't think so.

18 MR. GARVER: Mr. Kobelinkski, to the extent

19 that the subject documentation wasn't covered by

20 our notice, I guess we would ask for all

21 documents related to Mr. Larsen's vegetation

22 mapping work. I will follow-up this with a

23 request for production.

24 MR. KOBELINKSKI: If you file a written

25 request, there probably wouldn't be any problem

Page 85

1 producing them to you. I haven't taken a look

2 at them, but there probably shouldn't be any

3 problem.

4 BY MR. GARVER:

5 Q. Other than the Loran that was used with the

6 helicopter, was there any other instrumentation used

7 in conducting the vegetation mapping work?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Other than the helicopter work, was there

10 any other field work involved in doing the vegetation

11 mapping?

12 A. Not that I can recall.

13 Q. Do you have any photographs documenting the

14 helicopter overflight portion of the vegetation

15 mapping work?

16 A. I don't think so. I was too busy to take

17 pictures.

18 Q. Can you tell me, do you recall the names of

19 the botanists for ESP, Breedlove, and I believe you

20 mentioned one other botanist that was involved in the

21 vegetation mapping?

22 A. I remember a name, Mike Drummond, but the

23 names of the botanists are included in the field

24 notes.

25 Q. Prior to the vegetation mapping work you

Page 86

1 just described in 1989, have you been involved in

2 other vegetation mapping projects?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how many other such projects?

5 A. Two.

6 Q. And when were those projects done?

7 A. In the same time period, 1989, 1991.

8 Q. Can you describe those other vegetation

9 mapping projects to me, please?

10 A. One of them was in conjunction with the

11 ERIN work, and the other was to map, using similar

12 procedures, the southern portion of Conservation Area

13 1.

14 Q. Other than the people you mentioned earlier

15 that were involved in the satellite imagery work with

16 ERIN, were there any other people involved in doing

17 vegetative mapping in connection with the ERIN work?

18 A. I think I mentioned that Mike Dennis may

19 have participated in that work.

20 Q. In the vegetation mapping portion of the

21 ERIN work; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 I am assuming that you are -- in terms of

24 all this, you're saying as it relates to this case,

25 any vegetation mapping? In other words, I have

Page 87

1 worked on vegetation mapping in the Marco Island case

2 and in others.

3 Q. Actually, I had not limited my question.

4 So I was asking for experience in vegetation mapping

5 outside of this case when I asked earlier. We can

6 clarify that right now.

7 Other than work relating to this proceeding

8 or related proceedings, when else have you conducted

9 vegetation mapping?

10 A. In conjunction with the Marco Island case,

11 and in 1990 and 1991 I prepared a vegetation map of

12 the area associated with the Dade County Lake Belt

13 Plan for different clients, and there may have been

14 other projects that involved vegetation mapping in

15 conjunction with Environmental Permitting.

16 In fact, I now recall another fairly

17 detailed vegetation map that I worked on for Tarmac,

18 and I guess that almost every wetland permitting case

19 that I have worked on would involve a map showing

20 vegetation as it relates to wetland permitting

21 issues.

22 Q. In any of the vegetation mapping work you

23 have done, have you ever, yourself, delineated the

24 vegetation associations?

25 A. I mainly work with a botanist, and unless

Page 88

1 the vegetation classifications are exceedingly

2 simple, in other words, black and white between areas

3 that are melaleuca and easy to distinguish, I would

4 typically use a professional botanist to work with me

5 to identify the plant associations. The

6 responsibilities would generally be his, the

7 botanist's, to delineate the associations, and my

8 responsibility would be to prepare the map.

9 Q. In the vegetation mapping work that you

10 have done in the Everglades, have you always relied

11 on professional botanists to delineate the vegetation

12 associations?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. When did you conduct vegetation mapping of

15 the southern portion of Water Conservation Area 1?

16 A. I believe it was in 1990.

17 Q. Did anyone assist you in conducting

18 vegetation mapping in Water Conservation Area 1?

19 A. I was assisted by a helicopter pilot and

20 botanists.

21 Q. Do you recall who the botanists were?

22 A. They would be in the field notes, but I

23 don't recall at this time.

24 Q. What was the purpose of the mapping you

25 conducted in Water Conservation Area 1?

Page 89

1 A. To delineate the extent of cattails.

2 Q. Please describe to me the methodology used

3 in conducting the vegetation mapping in Water

4 Conservation Area 1.

5 A. It would be the same as described earlier.

6 Q. And where did you begin your flight

7 transect when you did the vegetation mapping in Water

8 Conservation Area 1?

9 A. Over the Hillsboro levee.

10 Q. How did you determine the end point of the

11 flight transect when you were doing vegetation

12 mapping in Water Conservation Area 1?

13 A. I don't recall the specific criteria, but

14 it was definitely when we were beyond the area of

15 heavy cattail coverage.

16 Q. Would your field notes reflect a specific

17 criteria that were used to determine the end point?

18 A. They may.

19 Q. Do you have any reports, photographs or

20 other documentation of the vegetation mapping in the

21 Water Conservation Area 1?

22 A. I recall preparing a report.

23 Q. Just one report? Is that all of the

24 documentation, other than the field notes, from the

25 Water Conservation Area 1 vegetation mapping?

Page 90

1 A. As I recall.

2 Q. When you did your flight transect in Water

3 Conservation Area 2A and Water Conservation Area 1,

4 how high were you flying above ground?

5 A. Probably between 10 feet and 500 feet.

6 Q. So your flight transects were not all taken

7 at the same height above ground level?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What criteria were used to determine how

10 high you would fly during your flight transect?

11 A. The criteria is sufficient so that the

12 botanist could identify plant associations.

13 Q. Did you ever touch down in the marsh itself

14 during your vegetation mapping work?

15 A. In Conservation Area 2A, yes. In the

16 Loxahatchee, no.

17 Q. Do you recall under what circumstances it

18 was necessary to fly at ten feet above gro