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1
1 STATE OF FLORIDA
DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
2
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF)
3 FLORIDA, INC., ROTH FARMS, INC., )
and WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )
4 )
and )
5 )
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., )
6 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION )
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )
7 )
and )
8 )
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
9 ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS )
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and)
10 HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
)
11 Petitioners, )
)
12 v. )
)
13 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, )
14 )
Respondent, )
15 )
and )
16 )
MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF )
17 FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF )
AMERICA, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT )
18 OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and )
FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, )
19 )
Intervenors. )
20
21 ----------------------------------------------------
ORAL DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D.
22 VOLUME I
TAKEN ON MARCH 1, 1993
23 ----------------------------------------------------
24
25
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
800-521-9125
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 MS. DONNA H. STINSON
Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams
3 123 South Calhoun Street
P. O. Box 6526
4 Tallahasee, Florida 32301
5 COUNSEL FOR SUGAR CANE GROWERS
COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, ET AL.
6
7
8 MR. RICK J. BURGESS
Peeples, Earl & Blank
9 One Biscayne Tower
Suite 3636
10 Two South Biscayne Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33131
11
COUNSEL FOR FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
12 LEAGUE, INC.
13
14
15 MR. KEITH E. SAXE
United States Department of Justice
16 Environmental & Natural Resources Division
General Litigation Section
17 601 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Room 879
18 Washington, D.C. 20004
19 COUNSEL FOR UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
20
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
2 PAGE
3 AGREEMENTS OF COUNSEL. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
4 EXAMINATION OF RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., VOLUME I
5 BY MS. STINSON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
6 WITNESS' SIGNATURE PAGE. . . . . . . . . . . . 74
7 CORRECTION SHEET . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
8 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE . . . . . . . . . . . . 77
9
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25
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 E X H I B I T S
2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
3 1 Memorandum to G. Johns from R. Lacewell
dtd 5/21/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36
4
5 2 Memorandum to G. Johns from R. Lacewell,
L. Jones and T. Ozuna dtd 6/3/92 . . . . 37
6
3 Letter to G. Johns from Peterson Consulting
7 dtd 7/31/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47
8 4 Handwritten Notes - 20-Year Analysis . . 59
9 5 Handwritten Notes . . . . . . . . . . . 70
10 6 Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones
dtd 10/23/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90
11
7 Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones and
12 R. Lacewell dtd 8/28/92 . . . . . . . . 91
13 8 Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones
dtd 8/4/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102
14
8-A Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones. . .
15
9 Handwritten Notes to S. Ponzoli . . . . 112
16
10 Fax to S. Ponzoli dtd 1/22/93 . . . . . 112
17
11 Florida Sugar Cane League Summary of
18 Hazen & Sawyer's Potential Economic
Impacts Analysis . . . . . . . . . . . . 164
19
12 Economic Effects of the SWIM Plan on
20 Sugarcane Production in the Everglades
Agricultural Area of Florida . . . . . . 174
21
13 Memorandum to K. Saxe from R. Lacewell
22 dtd 6/16/92. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 284
23 14 Letter to R. Rosenberg from I. Hirschhorn
dtd 5/21/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
24
25
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 E X H I B I T S
2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
3 15 Florida Sugar Cane League Summary of
Hazen & Sawyer's Potential . . . . . . .
4
16 Notes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
5
17 Letter to G. Johns from L. Jones . . . .
6
18 Agricultural Property Tax Assessment in
7 the EAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
8 19 Review of World Price Situation. . . . .
9 20 Review of World Price Situation. . . . .
10 21 Letter to G. Johns to Peterson Consulting
dtd 7/31/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
11
22 Debt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
12
23 The Validity of Benefits Transfers:
13 The Case of the Florida Everglades . . .
14 24 Issues Related to the Profitability of
Farming in the EAA Draft 6/15/92 . . . .
15
25 Memorandum to K. Saxe from T. Ozuna
16 dtd 7/30/92. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
17
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25
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 A G R E E M E N T S
2 DEPOSITION AND ANSWERS of RONALD D. LACEWELL,
3 Ph.D., VOLUME I, who resides in Bryan, Brazos
4 County, Texas, taken herein by Counsel for
5 PETITIONERS, before Lori A. Belvin, a Certified
6 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
7 State of Texas, on March 1, 1993, between the hours
8 of 3:15 P.M. to 5:00 P.M. at the Hilton Hotel,
9 Conference Room IV, located at 801 University Drive
10 East, College Station, Brazos County, Texas,
11 pursuant to NOTICE and the following stipulations
12 and agreements:
13 IT WAS AGREED by and between counsel for the
14 Petitioners and Respondent, in the above-numbered
15 and styled cause, that all formalities specifically
16 waived and that the oral deposition of
17 RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., VOLUME I, may be taken
18 herein forthwith before Lori A. Belvin, a Certified
19 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
20 State of Texas, said deposition being taken with the
21 same force and effect as though all the requirements
22 of the statutes and rules had been fully complied
23 with.
24 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that no objections need be
25 made by any party at the time of taking said
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 deposition, except objections as to the form of the
2 question or the responsiveness of the answer, which
3 if not made during the deposition are waived; but if
4 and when said deposition, or any portion thereof, is
5 offered in evidence on the trial of this cause by
6 any party hereto, it shall be subject to any and all
7 other legal objections, such objections to be made
8 at the time of the tender, the same as though the
9 witness were on the stand personally testifying.
10 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that the witness shall
11 sign the deposition transcript before any notary
12 public or official authorized to administer oaths;
13 and, at such time, the witness has the privilege of
14 reading over said transcript and making any
15 corrections that he finds to be necessary such
16 corrections to be made in accordance with the Rules
17 of Civil Procedure.
18 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that in the event the
19 original deposition transcript is not signed by the
20 witness within 20 days of receipt and filed at the
21 time of trial or any hearing, that the original or a
22 certified copy of said transcript may be filed in
23 court and used herein as though the witness had
24 signed said original transcript.
25 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that after said deposition
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 transcript has been returned to the deposition
2 officer along with changes, if any, made by the
3 witness in accordance with the Rules of Civil
4 Procedure, that the original deposition transcript,
5 together with copies of all exhibits, will be
6 delivered to MS. DONNA H. STINSON for safekeeping
7 and use in trial.
8 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that after said deposition
9 transcript has been returned to counsel in
10 accordance with these stipulations and agreements,
11 it will be treated by the parties hereto and may be
12 used herein with the same force and effect as though
13 all statutes and rules relating to the taking and
14 returning into court of depositions had been fully
15 complied with.
16 * * * * *
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 * * *
3 THE REPORTER: Ladies and gentlemen,
4 we're on the record; and I don't know
5 if y'all are following any certain
6 stipulations or anything like that;
7 but a lot of times if you'll just make
8 a quick short statement in the record,
9 it makes it real clear for everybody.
10 MS. STINSON: I presume --
11 MR. BURGESS: I think we've been
12 reserving all objections other than as
13 to form.
14 * * *
15 RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D.,
16 having been first duly cautioned and sworn upon
17 his oath to tell the truth, the whole truth
18 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows,
19 to wit:
20 * * *
21 E X A M I N A T I O N
22 * * *
23 BY MS. STINSON:
24 Q. Would you please state your name and
25 address.
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 A. My name is Ronald D. Lacewell. My address
2 is 3513 Parkway Terrace, Bryan, Texas.
3 Q. Is that your home address?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What is your business address?
6 A. Department of Agricultural Economics,
7 Texas A & M University, College Station, Texas.
8 Q. How long have you been with Texas A & M?
9 A. January 1970.
10 Q. Would you go through, please, for me
11 briefly your educational background and your
12 professional experience?
13 A. Educational background would be high school
14 degree from Lockney, Texas; Bachelor's Degree, B.S.
15 in Agricultural Economics from Texas Tech
16 Univerisity; Master of Science from Texas Tech
17 University in Lubbock, Texas; Ph.D. in Agricultural
18 Economics from Oklahoma State University.
19 Q. And you have been with Texas A & M since
20 you received your Ph.D.?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Back in 1970?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I take it you're a Professor of
25 Agricultural Economics; is that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have any particular subspecialty or
3 expertise within that field?
4 A. The areas that I specialize in are farm
5 management, production economics, and resource
6 economics -- natural resource economics.
7 Q. What was the second one of those things?
8 A. Production economics.
9 Q. Can you describe briefly for me, please,
10 those three areas, what they consist of?
11 A. Farm management would be the allocation of
12 resources at the farm firm, levels of production,
13 farm organization.
14 Production economics is many of the same
15 traits. They use production economic theory for
16 allocation resources. It can get to a more
17 aggregate level. So you might want to work on a
18 regional level.
19 And resource economics would have to do
20 with the use of natural resources, such as, water,
21 land, how it impacts air, things like this, just the
22 use of the resources.
23 Q. Do you do consulting in addition to your
24 work at the university, private consulting?
25 A. Yes.
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 Q. And I take it you have been retained by the
2 U.S. to provide your expertise in what I'll call the
3 Everglades litigation; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. I have been retained by the U.S.
5 government relative to agriculture in the EAA.
6 Q. What agency with the U.S. government has
7 retained you?
8 A. Justice Department.
9 Q. When were you retained?
10 A. I don't know the exact date. I would
11 approximate the spring of '92.
12 Q. And who contacted you?
13 A. The principal contact from the U.S. Justice
14 was Keith Saxe.
15 Q. And what is it that you've been asked to do
16 with respect to economics in the EAA?
17 A. The primary purpose of the relationship to
18 this point is to look at the work that's going on
19 and be -- to look at the work that's going on and
20 react to it, to evaluate its appropriateness, what
21 it looks like, is it being done correctly, a
22 review.
23 Q. When you say "look at the work being done,"
24 by whom?
25 A. By anyone that's working on the agriculture
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 in the EAA.
2 Q. And that would include, I presume,
3 Hazen & Sawyer?
4 A. It would include Hazen & Sawyer.
5 Q. Did you work with Hazen & Sawyer or provide
6 input to them when they were doing their tenure
7 analysis?
8 A. We interacted with Hazen & Sawyer and met
9 with Hazen & Sawyer.
10 Q. Do you recall when and during what period
11 of time?
12 A. Again, I don't know the exact dates; but it
13 would be the period in the spring -- beginning in
14 the spring.
15 Q. Prior to their draft final report?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you meet with Grace Johns or anyone
18 else from Hazen & Sawyer prior to that draft report?
19 A. We have met with her, yeah.
20 Q. Prior to that draft final?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times?
23 A. It's once or twice before the draft
24 report. It was one or two. I don't recall which.
25 Q. Do you recall how many since then?
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 A. Excuse me?
2 Q. How many times have you met with her or
3 someone from Hazen & Sawyer since then?
4 A. Since then twice, I believe. Again, I'm
5 not exactly positive. Twice is what I would say.
6 Q. Did Grace Johns or anyone from
7 Hazen & Sawyer contact you and ask you to review
8 their work in progress before the report was
9 written? How did that work?
10 A. We contacted her, indicating that we would
11 be interested in reviewing the work; and she said
12 that she would be extremely pleased to have people
13 look at the work.
14 She then provided us documents that we
15 would review, and we'd have feedback on those
16 documents then of our input, our ideas, our
17 reactions, which she then could take or not take as
18 she saw fit.
19 Q. So you reviewed preliminary drafts and
20 commented on them before they were incorporated into
21 the final work?
22 A. One preliminary draft, I recall.
23 Q. Did Ms. Johns or Hazen & Sawyer incorporate
24 any of your comments or suggestions into the final
25 draft?
PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC.
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1 A. That's a tougher answer, in that she was
2 getting input from several different directions at
3 the same time. So ours was only one voice, and I
4 would have to look at the draft that we reviewed and
5 the final draft; and I've never laid those down side
6 by side.
7 We had input to her at each point and then,
8 generally, just went on. So I can't tell you that
9 she made a change based on our input.
10 And if she made a change, I'm not sure it
11 was based on our input; but she got our input and
12 she's really a very, very good economist. She
13 reacted to that in the way she felt appropriate.
14 Q. Have you been asked to or have you done any
15 independent analysis of the economics in the EAA,
16 apart from reviewing other people's work?
17 A. We have done an analysis using the
18 Sugar & Sweetner Report.
19 Q. You say "we." Who do you mean?
20 A. Dr. Jones and I.
21 Q. Has that been presented anywhere?
22 A. Dr. Jones presented it to the funding
23 council, I believe. I'm not sure who he presented
24 it to, but he presented it in Florida.
25 Q. Recently or do you know when?
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1 A. June -- time out. What's this, January?
2 Q. March.
3 A. February.
4 Q. Of '93?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. This last month?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. You worked on that with him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In the three areas of -- or subareas of
11 expertise, which you've described to me, you did not
12 mention impact analysis. Do you consider yourself
13 an expert in that field?
14 A. No.
15 Q. On a list of projects that you have
16 provided, you indicate you conducted a "National
17 Analysis of Boll Weevil Eradication with Results
18 that were Unpopular with the USDA Cotton Farmers,"
19 et cetera.
20 When did you do that, and by whom were you
21 retained to do that?
22 A. The directors of the Southern Agriculture
23 Experiment Stations asked us to do that. I don't
24 remember the date.
25 Q. Year?
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1 A. It's been many years ago.
2 Q. Many years.
3 A. In the 70's.
4 Q. What about the "Economic Analysis of
5 Ethanol Production," when did you do that?
6 A. We did that study, as I recall, during --
7 we began those during the energy crisis of the 70's,
8 I believe, the late 70's.
9 Q. You indicate here that was also unpopular
10 with certain persons, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 MR. SAXE: Can I see the document
13 you're referring to, Counsel?
14 MS. STINSON: Sure.
15 MR. SAXE: Thank you.
16 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) You indicate you have
17 participated in hearings in Washington, as well as
18 Texas, several times.
19 Can you tell me what hearings?
20 A. In Texas --
21 Q. What types of hearings, first of all?
22 A. Legislative hearings. And Texas was one,
23 and then racehorse -- the racing commission hearings
24 on licensing racetracks.
25 Q. In Texas?
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1 A. In Texas.
2 Q. And what was your testimony?
3 A. The one for legislative hearings had to do
4 with the gasohol issue where we presented our
5 results.
6 The racing commission related to
7 feasibility studies that we had done on particular
8 tracks and whether they looked economically viable
9 or not.
10 Q. Was this testimony in a judicial-type forum
11 or a congressional-type forum? Do you understand my
12 question?
13 A. Yeah. Congressional would be the gasohol
14 issue. Both would be congressional; I believe, it's
15 not judicial. The racing commission was only
16 bringing hearings to decide whether to issue a
17 license or not.
18 Q. And what about in Washington D.C.?
19 A. I can't give you specifics, but I testified
20 at the request of the chancellor of A & M and some
21 other administrators on new production systems,
22 integrated pest management for crop production,
23 irrigation technology, issues like that.
24 Q. Have you done that on a regular basis or
25 how often?
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1 A. Irregular basis.
2 Q. Before whom?
3 A. These would be committees, congressional
4 committees.
5 Q. Have you ever provided expert testimony in
6 a litigation or judicial-type forum?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell me where and what?
9 A. There was a lawsuit in Arkansas that I was
10 retained as an expert witness that related to a
11 dairyman and a feed mill.
12 So I worked for a law firm in Arkansas.
13 Q. What was the substance of your testimony?
14 A. It related to the economic well-being of a
15 dairyman.
16 Q. What do you mean by "economic well-being"?
17 A. Whether or not he was in a position of
18 bankruptcy or not bankruptcy.
19 Q. By whom were you retained?
20 A. By the insurance company that was insuring
21 some equipment that the dairyman bought.
22 Q. And when was that?
23 A. Several years ago.
24 Q. Okay. Do you recall, were you qualified as
25 an expert witness at any hearing or at trial?
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1 A. This went through deposition, and I was an
2 expert witness. It was settled before trial.
3 Q. Any other instances that you have testified
4 in a judicial-type forum?
5 A. Not that I recall.
6 Q. What courses do you teach?
7 A. I teach a graduate class in Production
8 Economics.
9 Q. That's all?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Lucky.
12 A. That's enough.
13 Q. Do you, also, do research on behalf of the
14 university?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And are you currently working on research
17 on behalf of the university?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What research?
20 A. That's a broad question. I have several
21 projects that I am the project investigator --
22 principal investigator on that involve both research
23 sponsored by the university and contract research.
24 Q. You mean that you do privately?
25 A. No. I mean, contracts that are brought to
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1 the university.
2 Q. Can you tell me what projects you're
3 working on?
4 A. Contracts that I currently have would be
5 one with the Soil Conservation Service in
6 Washington. That's to do farm level analysis to
7 address resource issues of land and water
8 conservation.
9 Q. In Texas or generally --
10 A. United States.
11 MR. BURGESS: I'm sorry. For land and
12 water?
13 THE WITNESS: Conservation.
14 A. I've got two contracts with the State Soil
15 Conservation Service. One is to evaluate best
16 management practices for dairy waste management.
17 The other is a cooperative contract through
18 them and the Corps of Engineers to evaluate drainage
19 in the lower Rio Grande Valley.
20 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Evaluate it how?
21 A. Benefits of agricultural drainage.
22 Q. The question is whether land should be
23 drained, or what's the question?
24 A. The question is: What are the benefits and
25 costs of a project in the lower Rio Grande Valley.
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1 And so you have to evaluate and estimate
2 the benefits for agricultural and urban and then
3 compare it to the costs for a project that's
4 sponsored by the Corps of Engineers.
5 Q. Is this a proposed project?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. A particular proposed project?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. There's others.
11 Q. Can you tell me what they are?
12 A. The United States Geological Survey is a
13 cooperative project with Purdue to evaluate the
14 impact of farmer practices on surface water
15 quality.
16 Q. In what area?
17 A. The White River of Indiana. Through the
18 Texas Water Resources Institute, again, with
19 U.S.G.S.
20 I have a project to look at the impact of
21 farmer practices on groundwater quality on the
22 Seymour Acquifer of Texas.
23 A university-funded research, I don't
24 recall the contract at this second. The
25 university-funded contracts will include some work
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1 on economic impacts of integrated pest management
2 for pecan production.
3 Q. For what production?
4 A. Pecan production. Often we are issuing
5 strategies for irrigation for the
6 Ogallala Acquifer, O-g-a-l-l-a-l-a.
7 That's all I recall at this point.
8 Q. We have a stack of documents here that I'd
9 like to start going through, anyway. Some of
10 these -- I don't know how we'll do it, if I want to
11 put something in, but we'll look at them
12 MR. BURGESS: Aim for it.
13 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion
14 off the record.)
15 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) I'll just go through them
16 in numeric order here. A document -- it's a table
17 from something, "Farms with Sales of 10,000 or
18 more."
19 Can you tell me, if you recall, what it's
20 from and why you have that, what you used it for?
21 A. This is from a Census of Agriculture,
22 provides 1982 and 1987 results; and it's from
23 Florida. I'm fairly sure this is
24 Palm Beach County. And this was for general
25 information that I Xeroxed this to just begin to get
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1 some overview of agriculture in
2 Palm Beach County Florida.
3 Q. Are there any specific numbers in here that
4 you've used that you know of?
5 A. Not a one.
6 Q. Here's some handwritten notes titled,
7 "Palm Beach County 1987 Census of Ag."
8 Can you tell me what that is and what those
9 numbers represent?
10 A. Again, this is some of that information.
11 This was taken before that information.
12 Q. When you say "that," you mean the last
13 document?
14 A. Yeah. Right. So this came from the
15 Census of Agriculture, pulled these numbers.
16 I wanted more information than this to see
17 what else was there, so that's when I just Xeroxed
18 the information, the census. I did not use this
19 information for any particular purpose.
20 Q. Do you know whose handwriting that is?
21 A. It's a student worker of mine.
22 Q. So what you told me is the first document I
23 showed you has more information than the handwritten
24 one?
25 A. Yes, it is.
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1 Q. You also apparently have in your files an
2 article by Dr. Ozuna and Dr. Stahl, "The
3 Significance of Data Collection and Econometric
4 Methods." Did you use that article for any
5 particular purpose?
6 A. No, I didn't use that for any purpose.
7 Q. Particular or not, right?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Here's a document entitled, "Proposal to
10 Evaluate the Economic Impact of Implementing the
11 Marjory Stoneman Douglas Everglades Restoration Act
12 and U.S. versus SFWMD Settlement Agreement."
13 The proposal has a date of December 20 on
14 it. I noticed it was faxed to you on April 2, '92.
15 Can you tell me when, in relation to the
16 time you were retained, you received that document,
17 if that would help you remember when you were first
18 contacted.
19 A. As I recall, this document preceded the
20 point when I was retained and --
21 Q. Had you had preliminary conversations at
22 that point?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. BURGESS: I'm sorry. Did you
25 identify the fax date as the date
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1 which preceded your attention or the
2 document report date?
3 THE WITNESS: The fax date.
4 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Did you make or have any
5 comments on the proposal to evaluate the economic
6 impact?
7 A. I didn't have a response relative to
8 whether it was a good proposal or a bad proposal.
9 Q. Did you have any response relative to
10 whether it covered the items that should be covered;
11 or was it a factor that should be looked at?
12 A. No, I didn't address that.
13 Q. You have, also, in your files a document
14 entitled, "Everglades Restoration, A Progress Report
15 February '92."
16 Are you familiar with that document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall when you received that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you reviewed it?
21 A. I've read it.
22 Q. Have you made any comments, either written
23 or oral, on that document?
24 A. No.
25 Q. A handwritten document entitled,
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1 "Everglades Planning Document."
2 Is that your handwriting?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What is that document?
5 A. These are notes I took as I read through
6 the Everglades Planning Document that points out
7 points in the document.
8 Q. When you say "Everglades Planning
9 Document," do you mean the SWIM plan?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall when you made these notes?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, let's see if we can -- did you
14 provide these notes to anyone or these comments?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. You have, "SPA 319 million
17 construction/land purchase."
18 Is that a number you got out of the
19 SWIM plan?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. "$700 per acre of agriculture land." Is
22 that what that says?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know what that refers to?
25 A. I don't know if that's from the SWIM plan
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1 or something I calculated. I really haven't been
2 back to this. I went through it one time, reading
3 it.
4 Q. The numbers at the bottom, the 312, 2.6,
5 et cetera, do you recall whether those numbers are
6 out of the SWIM document?
7 A. As I recall these numbers, these were the
8 numbers that were in the document and the amount
9 that applied to each one of these items. And I
10 wrote them down straight out of that document.
11 Q. Okay. Another handwritten document --
12 A. I was busy, wasn't I?
13 Q. -- called, "Budgets for Rice," and then it
14 says, "Alvarez 1992."
15 Can you tell me, are those your notes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell me what they reflect?
18 A. These notes are very analogous to the ones
19 you just looked at, in that I reviewed a publication
20 from IFAS that talked about rice; and these are
21 points I took directly out of that document, that
22 would be in the document.
23 Q. Do you recall the name of the document or
24 the publication?
25 A. You should have a copy of the document
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1 somewhere in those records.
2 Q. All right. Maybe we'll get to it.
3 In these notes, do you draw any
4 conclusions; or they're simply writing down what was
5 in the document?
6 A. Only writing down what the documents say.
7 Q. We've got another one, "turf grass, sod,
8 IFAS" -- and then something on the --
9 "Haydu & Cisar," I think.
10 Can you tell me what that document is?
11 A. Haydu & Cisar. This is an IFAS Report,
12 economic report, ER '92, I believe, March 1992.
13 And, again, this is the same thing. I was
14 reviewing these articles and I was writing down
15 specific points out of these different reports and
16 that's all that is, is a duplication of notes that
17 are in those reports.
18 Q. You have, also, in your files a letter and
19 proposal from Burns & McDonald on the Everglades
20 protection project.
21 Did you review and comment on that at all?
22 A. I didn't review; I read it and didn't
23 comment on it.
24 Q. More notes. It first says, "How are costs
25 of SWIM allocated."
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1 Can you tell me what these notes are from?
2 A. These notes came from -- I believe these
3 came from a report by the Wilderness Society; and
4 the title, I don't know. You should have a copy of
5 that report somewhere. And this, again, was reading
6 through that report writing down notes that I took
7 out of that report.
8 Q. We may get to it. If we don't, do you
9 recall if the author of that was Craig Diamond?
10 A. Diamond was the author of a report or
11 reports I read; but whether that's exactly it, I'm
12 not positive. Likely.
13 Q. It appears on this document regarding the
14 Wilderness Society report that you make some
15 comments that may not be straight out of the
16 document.
17 Let me ask you. You say here, "What
18 percent of the South Florida projects can be
19 allocated to Ag and what part to urban"? Is that a
20 question you had in reading the document or --
21 A. There's no answer in this document. I
22 don't know the answer to that question.
23 Q. Then you have, "1.75 million acres
24 benefitted by projects, 726,000 new acres," I guess,
25 and "530,000 in EAA."
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1 Is that out of the document?
2 A. It's out of some document, but I wouldn't
3 swear that it's out of the Wilderness Society
4 document. But it's out of a document, and I didn't
5 notate exactly where I picked those up.
6 Q. There's another question here, "Does SFWMD
7 accept Wilderness Society O & M Distribution."
8 What was that?
9 A. That was a question that I had when I went
10 through it. Boy, let me think about what was -- I
11 was visiting with some people; and Craig Diamond, on
12 this report, had raised an issue about whether the
13 District approved that report or not or like that
14 report. And so that was a question I wanted to
15 follow up on.
16 Q. Did you ever get an answer?
17 A. No. I'm not sure I ever asked the point
18 blank question, to tell you the truth, to anyone at
19 the District relative to that particular report.
20 Q. A comment here, "Sugar program involves
21 Government cost, but true cost is cost to consumers
22 of high market price compared to world price."
23 Is that your own comment or something out
24 of the document?
25 A. No. That's the comment -- I believe that's
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1 in both places.
2 Q. Both places being --
3 A. Being that --
4 Q. -- what two places?
5 A. -- there is a cost, in my mind, from the
6 sugar program to U.S. consumers; and I can't tell
7 you if that's in the document or not. I don't
8 know.
9 Q. That may just be your own note --
10 A. It very well could be.
11 Q. -- or thought. Okay.
12 You have -- third page of notes is dated
13 4/27/92. It begins, "50,000 live in EAA, 14,000 of
14 50,000 employed, quality of input data major
15 issue." Are these notes from a document, or do you
16 recall?
17 A. This page right here, to the best of my
18 knowledge, was a conversation that I had with
19 Grace Johns fairly early; and when she had -- fairly
20 early in the analysis when she was grabbing things.
21 And I think this is just a set of notes
22 that I was taking as we visited on the telephone.
23 Q. Is that information you obtained from her
24 or information you were providing to her or both?
25 A. Primarily obtained from her. It would be
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1 what she was beginning to develop.
2 Q. The numbers that you have in the column one
3 says, "U.S. sugar." I'm not sure what the next one
4 says. What are those numbers?
5 A. Again, my recall is that these are the
6 acres in the EAA that are owned or farmed by those
7 entities.
8 Q. Was that information you obtained from
9 Ms. Johns?
10 A. I didn't obtain that information myself.
11 Q. Here's a phone memo from Lynch.
12 Do you recall who he is and what you talked
13 to him about or her? I reckon it's a him.
14 A. Lynch wrote a report on the cost of BMP's.
15 Q. Did you talk to him about that?
16 A. I called him and asked him for a copy of
17 the report, which he subsequently sent to me.
18 Q. Did you review that report and analysis?
19 A. I read it, yes.
20 Q. Did you make comments on that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Another telephone memo, David Legg, I
23 believe. Do you recall who he is, and what you
24 talked to him about?
25 A. He was with the Soil Conservation Service,
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1 and I visited with him about a soil survey for
2 Palm Beach County; and he said he would provide one
3 for $15.50. And I said, "Okay."
4 Q. What does that survey show?
5 A. The soil survey is a soil survey of the
6 county that shows the different soils across
7 Palm Beach County, primary productivity.
8 Soil surveys are developed for every county
9 in the United States.
10 Q. Did you use that information in some way?
11 A. I didn't use it. I reviewed over some
12 discussions of the soils, to get an idea of what the
13 soils were like.
14 Q. What about a conversation with
15 Dale Bocher?
16 A. Bocher, yes, I talked to Dale.
17 Q. What did you speak with Mr. Bocher about,
18 if you recall?
19 A. Best management practices and the work that
20 he was doing relative to best management practices
21 on farm for control of phosphorus discharge.
22 Q. Were you also at one point -- well, have
23 you looked at the cost of BMP's and analyzed or
24 reviewed people's work regarding BMP's?
25 A. I read the Lynch report and the work that
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1 Bocher has done.
2 Q. Have you provided commentary on that to
3 anyone as part of your work?
4 A. No.
5 Q. John Haydu, University of Florida?
6 A. Haydu.
7 Q. Haydu?
8 A. Yes. I called him and asked for a report
9 on turf grass and sod, which he mailed to me.
10 Q. Is that report some kind of official
11 application?
12 A. IFAS report.
13 Q. George Strain, Corps of Engineers?
14 A. Corps of Engineers, yes.
15 Q. When did you speak with him?
16 A. What's the date on that?
17 Q. 5/13.
18 A. Oh, that's early. Jacksonville. I was
19 interested in determining what the Corps of
20 Engineers expenditures were relative to the
21 South Florida Water Management Flood Control
22 Project.
23 Q. Did you get that information?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Why not?
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1 MR. SAXE: Objection to the form.
2 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) You can answer, anyway.
3 A. I'm not sure why I didn't get that
4 information, primarily, because it's not assimilated
5 in a way that it's convenient to provide.
6 No more phone messages?
7 Q. Not yet.
8 MS. STINSON: I'll put this one in.
9 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion
10 off the record; and
11 Exhibit No. 1 was marked
12 for identification.)
13 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Would you identify
14 Deposition Exhibit 1, please.
15 A. May 21. This is a letter I wrote to
16 Grace Johns where I was just conveying some thoughts
17 as a result of discussions in review of some
18 materials I'd looked at to see if it might be of
19 help to her.
20 Q. Did you make her aware that you were acting
21 on behalf of the U.S. Justice Department?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. SAXE: Objection to form.
24 What do you mean by, "acting on
25 behalf of the U.S. Department
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1 Justice"?
2 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Have been retained by the
3 U.S. Department Justice?
4 A. I told her that we were retained by the
5 Justice Department, and our objective was to review
6 anything that she'd like for us to review and to
7 help her have as good a study as she could do, with
8 anything we could do to help her.
9 Q. Did you have any conversations with her
10 regarding Exhibit 1; or did you get feedback from
11 her on it, either oral or written?
12 A. Again, as I recall, she did call back and
13 indicated that she already had the Lynch report and
14 was considering most of these ideas anyway.
15 But that it was, "Thanks. I appreciate
16 your help." That's all.
17 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion
18 off the record; and
19 Exhibit No. 2 was marked
20 for identification.)
21 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) If you'd identify
22 Exhibit 2, please.
23 A. This is a fax that was sent by me,
24 Lonnie, and Teofilo Ozuna on 6/3/92 to Grace Johns.
25 Q. What does it represent, and why was it
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1 sent?
2 A. At this point, Dr. Johns was working on her
3 first draft, I believe of the report; and we had
4 visited with her and her with us. And she indicated
5 some pieces were being completed and we said, "We'd
6 be glad to look at some of those."
7 And she said, "Which ones?"
8 And we said, "Then, we'll write down some
9 things that if you can provide these to us, we'll be
10 glad to review them in a very quick turnaround-type
11 approach."
12 And she said, "Well, send me a copy."
13 We did, and this is them (indicating).
14 Q. These are the items that you were
15 requesting that she send you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. To look at?
18 A. (Witness nods head.)
19 Q. Did she send those things?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did she send any of them?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know why not?
24 A. No. We talked on the telephone and she
25 indicated how she was going to handle some different
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1 things and how she was doing some of these, but she
2 didn't provide us hard copy of any of this in
3 response to this fax. But she did call back.
4 Q. Did you discuss those items with her?
5 A. A few of them, and I don't recall which
6 ones or what points.
7 Q. Okay. Item 1 says, "Crop enterprise
8 budgets: Each crop separately." And there are some
9 other subparts.
10 Do you know whether she had that
11 information?
12 A. She did. She used the IFAS budgets exactly
13 like we would have done. Yes, she did that like any
14 production economist would.
15 Q. You say here, "For current conditions and
16 with SWIM over the 20-year planning horizon."
17 At that point, was she doing a 20-year
18 look?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know why it changed to a 10-year
21 analysis?
22 A. No.
23 Q. "GIS Reports for the EAA." What is GIS?
24 A. Geographic Information Systems, and it's
25 database that gives you -- if they have been
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1 developed -- detail relative to slope soils and
2 things of this nature.
3 Q. Did you obtain those reports?
4 A. The question was: Are there reports?
5 And I don't believe the GIS database has
6 been developed for the EAA as detailed.
7 Q. What is your note by "Point E"?
8 Can you read that?
9 A. "Owner patterns; anything on ownership of
10 land and EAA." That is just what are you doing on
11 ownership.
12 Q. Okay. 3.3 is "soil subsidence."
13 Did you obtain any information on soil
14 subsidence?
15 A. There is a journal article in some of the
16 material you have that's generic that talks about
17 soil subsidence from Muck soils, and there's an
18 IFAS report that she already had that talked about
19 soil subsidence in the EAA.
20 She had the material that we had located
21 already.
22 Q. Point 4, "Taxes paid and reduction by
23 deleting the acres in STA's from the tax base."
24 Did you obtain that information?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Did Dr. Johns have that information?
2 A. She did include that, yes.
3 Q. No. 5, "Economic model formulation." And
4 you have some subparts under that.
5 What are you talking about? Do you recall?
6 A. That's a good question. These were
7 questions that we were interested in knowing how she
8 was going to handle farm policy, is there a water
9 availability restriction, what was she planning to
10 do about costs.
11 So primarily these were issues that we were
12 saying, "How are you going to build these things,
13 and what are you going to use?"
14 So we didn't have for her a
15 recommendation. We were saying, "What are you going
16 to do?"
17 Q. "How are you going to build these," you
18 mean the model?
19 A. We were asking her what kind of cost prices
20 model she was going to do, yes.
21 Q. 6, "Strategy for reducing the economic
22 impacts as gleaned from other areas." Did you
23 obtain any feedback from her on that?
24 A. She did have some people call the Northwest
25 and California and different places; and that's
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1 included in her final report, which is litigation.
2 Q. "Methodology selected for valuing the
3 Everglades." Does that refer to the so-called
4 "benefit report" as opposed to the "impact report"?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Points 8 and 9 also have to do with the
7 benefit report, do they not?
8 A. Yes, 8 does.
9 Q. 9 also?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. 10, "Information on the input/output model
12 chosen." Did you obtain that information from her?
13 A. The question was: What was she going to
14 use? She did tell us that she had visited with
15 Mulkey at the University of Florida IFAS; and she
16 was going to use the RIMSII multipliers.
17 Q. Did you have any feedback to her on that?
18 Did you comment to her?
19 A. It's a good decision.
20 Q. "A summary of the results of a survey of
21 local suppliers conducted last month".
22 Who did the survey? Do you know what
23 survey?
24 A. I don't recall that exactly, but I believe
25 that that was a Hazen & Sawyer survey.
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1 Q. Okay. Is that information contained in the
2 report?
3 A. I don't know. I'm not sure she got a
4 response.
5 Q. Okay. It says EEA -- I presume it's
6 supposed to be EAA -- "Employment and personal
7 income data by sector." Did you have that
8 information?
9 A. We didn't have that information. We wanted
10 to know what she was going to use.
11 Q. Did you find out?
12 A. Yes, eventually.
13 Q. Did you comment on that information?
14 A. I don't think there's any reason for a
15 comment on that.
16 Q. "Cost data on mill operations per ton of
17 cane." Did she provide to you that information or
18 did you obtain it?
19 A. Our question was: Where are you going to
20 get that information? What is that information?
21 At that point, we didn't realize that was
22 published information in the USDA Sugar & Sweetner
23 Report.
24 Q. "Construction and operation data for STA's
25 in terms of employment and earnings." What was the
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1 question here, whether she had the data or --
2 A. What was she was going to do.
3 Q. Is that information in the final report?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you receive it before the final report
6 and comment on it?
7 MR. SAXE: Objection to form.
8 A. We did look at her draft report before the
9 final report.
10 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Specifically with regard
11 to the construction and operation data for STA's, do
12 you recall whether you had any comments or --
13 A. I can't recall whether that was a comment
14 we had or not, specifically.
15 Q. A document production request. "All
16 information collected on State and local taxes."
17 Did you obtain from her that information or
18 determine that she had correct information?
19 A. She has that in her final report. So she
20 took care of that.
21 Q. 16 and 17 are sort of catchalls. As I
22 gather, any drafts or other information she has.
23 Did you obtain any other documentation or
24 information from Dr. Johns?
25 A. She didn't send us any of this material.
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1 We had visited about some things on the telephone
2 that she would have some issue she wanted to talk
3 about.
4 Now, whether she fed some things to
5 Dr. Ozuna or Dr. Jones, that I was not part of the
6 cycle. I don't know.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MS. STINSON: Can we take a break?
9 MR. SAXE: Yeah. Five minutes.
10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
11 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Moving right along. I
12 have another telephone messenger. Eric Roche or
13 Roach. Do you recall the message?
14 A. Corps of Engineers?
15 Q. Yeah.
16 A. Same thing. I was wanting to get the cost
17 of operating Corps of Engineers' expenditures for
18 this project and was still unsuccessful.
19 Q. Xerox copies of photographs, which don't
20 tell me a whole lot. Can you tell me if you took
21 these, what they represent, why you took them.
22 A. These are photographs that would be around
23 Loxahatchee Refuge and coming around the Southern
24 part and Western part of the EAA.
25 Q. Did you take them?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Why did you take them?
3 A. To have a photographic history or
4 representation of some of the area that all of this
5 issue is evolving in.
6 Q. Is there anything particular about the
7 areas you photographed that's meaningful to your
8 work?
9 A. Construction on STA's, Everglades Nutrient
10 Removal.
11 Q. When were they taken?
12 A. The photographs were dated 7/17, so it
13 would have been slightly before that.
14 Q. I take it you made a trip to view the
15 scene?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many such trips have you taken?
18 A. To view the scene?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. One.
21 Q. The one that these pictures represent?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The next document is a copy of a letter to
24 Dr. Johns from Peterson Consulting that has some
25 margin notes. Can you tell me if the margin notes
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1 are yours?
2 A. That one is (indicating); that one is
3 (indicating); some of those are; that one is
4 (indicating); that one is (indicating).
5 Q. So are you saying some are and some are
6 not?
7 A. There's a couple in there that are not.
8 The bold is not mine.
9 MR. BURGESS: This is off the record.
10 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion
11 off the record; and
12 Exhibit No. 3 was marked
13 for identification.)
14 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) If you would, tell me
15 what your margin notes say. Explain them.
16 A. Well, the first note says, "Land values
17 decrease and changes hands, but analysis okay."
18 Q. What do you mean?
19 A. Let's see what they said. This is a letter
20 from Peterson to Grace Johns. Yes. The note from
21 Peterson relative to the draft report of
22 Hazen & Sawyer says that, "The draft report is
23 predicated on farmers in the EAA having no long-term
24 debt or any debt on machinery and equipment."
25 Then they make a long statement next to a
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1 bullet about, "assuming no intermediate or long-term
2 debt." And they want to run some projections
3 assuming debt ranges from 15 to 7 percent of total
4 assets. What was your question?
5 Q. What does your note mean? What are you
6 saying?
7 A. What I've got is, "Land values decrease and
8 changes hands, but the analysis is okay."
9 My note simply indicates that I think that
10 the analysis of Hazen & Sawyer, relative to this
11 point, is probably still valid and their analysis
12 wouldn't change based on these suggestions.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. The next one.
15 Q. The next one.
16 A. The next note is "Wow."
17 Q. What does that refer to, and what are you
18 saying?
19 A. This is "Under implementation of rice."
20 Peterson's response is that, "The draft report
21 assumes that growers will grow rice on more than
22 60,000 acres of fallow lands and that rice will
23 provide net returns to the growers."
24 This particular bullet from Peterson is a
25 long statement. It talks about, "rice is a
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1 break-even enterprise. There's a limited milling
2 capacity in the EAA," et cetera, et cetera.
3 And I'm reasonably sure that the "Wow" just
4 means, this is a really long statement and I didn't
5 mean any connotations of agree, disagree or anything
6 else.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. Page 6, Increased sugar production
9 efficiency, is the point Peterson's commenting on
10 under the second bullet. Let me read it and see if
11 it's worth talking about.
12 In this case -- I'm going to read this to
13 keep it straight. "The projection of historical
14 mill efficiencies to future periods may not be
15 appropriate for numerous reasons. Most mill
16 efficiencies are gained by expanding mill capacity.
17 Mill expansion requires increased acreage.
18 Decreases in acreage will negatively impact mill
19 efficiency. Also, the expansion to mechanical
20 harvesting is expected to negatively impact mill
21 efficiency in the near term."
22 The comment I made on that is, "Close some
23 mills and increase size of others -- cotton, gin,
24 for example."
25 What I meant by that is that all mills
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1 don't have to become inefficient, and that there are
2 examples in Ag and non-Ag where there are changes
3 that take place and they're adjustments that take
4 place. And there are some survivors; and those that
5 do survive, become more efficient, generally larger,
6 and that you don't necessarily have a decrease in
7 efficiency of all mills that exist.
8 The same page, Peterson --
9 Q. Let me ask you about that one.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. For that adjustment to occur, that some
12 mills would close and others would become more
13 efficient, would take some period of time, would it
14 not?
15 A. It could take some time, yes.
16 Q. Are you suggesting that that would
17 immediately happen as soon as some land went out of
18 production?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know how much land would have to go
21 out of production to make a mill close down, a sugar
22 mill?
23 A. I don't know the answer to that. With the
24 increases in sugar acreage, it would depend upon how
25 much acreage is coming in while some is going out.
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1 So what's the net change? I don't know the answer
2 to that, no.
3 Q. Do you know whether or not it is important
4 whether location of the field is related to the
5 location of the mills is an important factor?
6 A. I don't have a quantification of how that
7 affects cost, no. Is that all?
8 Q. Go on.
9 A. Assessment rates is the next issue that
10 Peterson Consulting addresses. And the comment they
11 made is that, " "We recommend that assessments above
12 $100 per acre also be presented for evaluation.
13 "Evaluation of assessments in excess of $100
14 is necessary given the fact that both the Everglades
15 SWIM plan and U.S. vs. SFWMD Settlement Agreement,
16 provided for enlargement of the STA's if the
17 presently proposed STA's do not function to reduce
18 nutrient concentrations in the target levels."
19 My comment is, "But all does not have to be
20 paid by farmers." And the only question I had there
21 is: How are they going to eventually allocate the
22 cost of the SWIM plan among South Florida or
23 whoever?
24 Q. Have you answered that question?
25 A. Absolutely not. Do you know anyone that
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1 has? I'm sorry. You're asking me questions.
2 Q. Right. Point well taken.
3 A. Let's see. The next question is still
4 under "Assessment Rates." The point is -- "The
5 report overstates revenues by assuming multiple
6 harvest of certain vegetable crops. This assumption
7 is not consistent with grower practices in the EAA.
8 This assumption may be consistent with California
9 practices but is not applicable to the EAA."
10 My comment is, "So any decline is less than
11 estimated." And the point of that is that if they
12 used less harvest for vegetables, they'd have less
13 gross revenue and any change would be less than
14 estimated by Hazen & Sawyer of going from less gross
15 output.
16 The next point is ", Destruction of
17 Economic Value According to Peterson Consulting."
18 The bullet, in this case is, "These
19 conditions, in addition to other factors, cause
20 destruction of economic value which is not fully
21 addressed in the report.
22 "Destruction Of economic value is an
23 important economic impact that should be addressed
24 in the report."
25 The comment I made is, "But is there also
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1 creation of economic value?" And that's an
2 unanswered question, perhaps, of: Are there other
3 trade-offs that you create something of value and
4 you don't simply destroy it?
5 Our last comment I have here is, the bullet
6 says, by Peterson, "Numerous businesses and vendors
7 and their manufacturers and suppliers impacted by
8 the above."
9 I'm not sure what that relates to, but my
10 comment is that "These are covered in indirect
11 impacts." My assumption is that Peterson Consulting
12 is saying that Hazen & Sawyer report did not
13 adequately evaluate the impact on business vendors
14 and manufacturers.
15 Q. And you disagree with Peterson?
16 A. I disagree with that.
17 Q. Another document with writing both on the
18 front and back. Is that writing yours?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What about on the back?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Then, I won't ask you about it.
23 Do you know whose it is?
24 A. The writing?
25 Q. Yes.
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1 A. I can guess, but I don't know whose it is,
2 no.
3 Q. Go ahead and guess.
4 A. Carl Woelche.
5 Q. Do you know why you would have a document
6 with Carl Woelche's notes on it?
7 MR. SAXE: Objection to form.
8 A. Yeah. Carl Woelche provided this to us, as
9 a matter of fact; and he didn't have a clean copy.
10 He had taken notes on a copy somewhere, and that's
11 what he had relative to that.
12 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Are you telling me the
13 notes are incidental? I mean, that he gave you the
14 document and just happened to have his notes?
15 A. That's right. He didn't have a clean
16 copy.
17 Q. Okay. Here's the same document with
18 different handwriting. Are those your notes?
19 A. No. And I don't even have a guess on those
20 are, but it was in my file.
21 Q. Apparently. Another document entitled,
22 "Implications of GATT Agreement for World Commodity
23 Markets, '93 to '98" by FARPI. Have you reviewed
24 that document?
25 A. No, ma'am. If I did anything, it was just
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1 a cursory look at it. I didn't review it.
2 Q. "Agenda for the Everglades Restoration
3 Council on Funding Policy, August 7."
4 Did you attend that meeting?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Another telephone message.
7 A. I can tell by looking at the filled in --
8 Q. Do you do that?
9 A. Yeah. That's a message to me.
10 Q. From Carl Woelche?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you speak with Carl Woelche?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On or about August 25th?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall what the conversation was
17 about?
18 A. We discussed the Hazen & Sawyer Report.
19 Q. Can you elaborate, please, and tell me the
20 substance of the conversation?
21 A. I don't remember the details. He had an
22 agenda, and I reacted to his agenda. I don't
23 remember the details. It had to do with my
24 impression of it and the quality of the work.
25 Q. Okay. We'll go into that in more detail
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1 later.
2 Here's a document. Can you just tell me
3 what it is and how you came to have it?
4 A. I can't tell you exactly who or where I got
5 this. What's the date on it, the 12th?
6 Q. Does it contain any information that you
7 have used in any fashion?
8 A. No, I haven't used any of it. I don't
9 recall exactly who gave me that. I folded it.
10 Q. "An Agenda for an Economic Impact Analysis
11 Meeting with League Economist, December 16."
12 Did you attend that meeting?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Another agenda with some handwritten
15 notes. Are those your notes?
16 A. Those are my notes.
17 Q. Did you provide those notes to anyone
18 either orally or in writing?
19 A. If I did, it was orally talking about this
20 agenda.
21 Q. With whom?
22 A. Here we go. Grace Johns.
23 Q. Okay. Did you work with her to develop the
24 agenda for that meeting?
25 A. No. I believe that agenda, if you look on
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1 the front page, was developed by League economists.
2 Q. Did you provide your comments on the
3 League's agenda to Dr. Johns?
4 A. Verbally.
5 Q. I know where you stayed and where you
6 went.
7 A. I've got a very good research assistant
8 that tries very hard to keep me straight when I hit
9 the road.
10 Q. Oh, boy, this one's going to be fun.
11 A. Oh, my gosh.
12 Q. Are these your notes, and what are they
13 (indicating)?
14 A. Oh, yes, these are my notes.
15 Q. What are they notes of?
16 A. These are notes that I took in the
17 deposition of Carl Woelche, trying to put down the
18 questions and his response in every case.
19 Q. Just basically writing down what went on?
20 A. Exactly. You started the questioning and
21 there will be a place in here that I'll have
22 switched to the Florida Sugarcane League questioning
23 and it starts here (indicating).
24 Q. Could I have these typed up so I don't have
25 to do it myself?
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1 A. No. I tell you what you can do is you can
2 get the proceedings of the deposition, and you'll
3 have a lot better copy.
4 Q. Right. Let me back up on your CV again.
5 You worked for the USDA for a period of
6 time; is that right?
7 A. That's true.
8 Q. What did you do?
9 A. I worked for the Economic Research
10 Service. I was stationed in Stillwater, Oklahoma;
11 and I developed a model to estimate the benefits of
12 small watershed projects.
13 Q. Did you do that while you were in school?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Notes entitled, "20-Year analysis," what
16 are those notes of?
17 A. This is thinking out loud to myself, when
18 it was decided by someone to extend or redo the
19 Hazen & Sawyer analysis and go to 20 years rather
20 than 10 years. These were points that I wanted to
21 keep in my mind that would be important.
22 Q. You just sat down somewhere and jotted
23 those notes; it was not based on a conversation?
24 A. I did this in a hotel room by myself. It's
25 not inclusive.
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1 MS. STINSON: Let me have this marked,
2 if I could.
3 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit No. 4
4 was marked for identification.)
5 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) These are issues, though,
6 that you have listed out that you feel should be
7 addressed in the 20-year analysis generally?
8 A. Let me look at them.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. That's exactly what some of the points are
11 that I think that we need to have brought up.
12 Q. In the 20-year analysis?
13 A. For the 20-year analysis.
14 Q. Okay. You have a sort of side note here
15 that says, "Boggess, Grace talked to Boggess and
16 find out why H & S is lower than USDA on pie."
17 What is pie?
18 A. Pie stands for profit. It is an
19 abbreviation.
20 Q. First of all, do you know that
21 Hazen & Sawyer is lower than USDA on profit?
22 A. (Witness nods head.)
23 Q. What are you basing that comment on?
24 A. That comment would be based on an adjusted
25 profit across EAA for the acres, and if you
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1 accumulate them for her 1994 base run, you would get
2 less than you'd get if you developed a profit value
3 from the Sugar & Sweetner Report and multiply it
4 times the acres of sugar in the EAA.
5 Q. Do you know why there is that difference?
6 Have you found out what the explanation is?
7 A. I haven't totally resolved that, but
8 partially it may be that Grace Johns begins
9 inflating costs; and by the time she gets to 1994,
10 she's inflated costs up to the point that if you
11 inflated the Sugar & Sweetner Report cost side, you
12 might be at the some point.
13 So my inclination at this point is that
14 inflation is affecting net of cost.
15 Q. That would be appropriate, would it not,
16 considering the effects of inflation?
17 A. You should consider that along with several
18 other things.
19 Q. Have you talked to Boggess about this
20 issue?
21 A. I asked him about that, and he didn't have
22 a resolution at the time and hadn't pursued it very
23 far.
24 Q. Do you recall approximately when these
25 notes were developed?
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1 A. Those were here sometime in December. And
2 I believe that's when they started the 20-year
3 analysis -- or the decision was made to do the
4 20-year analysis.
5 Q. When did you learn of that decision?
6 A. In December.
7 Q. From whom did you?
8 A. Probably Carl Woelche or Grace Jones. I
9 don't know.
10 Q. Did you speak with them on a regular basis
11 about the economic analysis?
12 A. Not on a regular basis, no.
13 Q. Do you recall, did one of them just call
14 you up and say, "Hey, did you know Hazen & Sawyer is
15 doing a 20-year analysis," or do you recall how you
16 learned?
17 A. I suspect tha
