1 1 STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS 2 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF) 3 FLORIDA, INC., ROTH FARMS, INC., ) and WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 4 ) and ) 5 ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., ) 6 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) 7 ) and ) 8 ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) 9 ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and) 10 HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) ) 11 Petitioners, ) ) 12 v. ) ) 13 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, ) 14 ) Respondent, ) 15 ) and ) 16 ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) 17 FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF ) AMERICA, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT ) 18 OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) 19 ) Intervenors. ) 20 21 ---------------------------------------------------- ORAL DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D. 22 VOLUME I TAKEN ON MARCH 1, 1993 23 ---------------------------------------------------- 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 MS. DONNA H. STINSON Hopping, Boyd, Green & Sams 3 123 South Calhoun Street P. O. Box 6526 4 Tallahasee, Florida 32301 5 COUNSEL FOR SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, ET AL. 6 7 8 MR. RICK J. BURGESS Peeples, Earl & Blank 9 One Biscayne Tower Suite 3636 10 Two South Biscayne Boulevard Miami, Florida 33131 11 COUNSEL FOR FLORIDA SUGAR CANE 12 LEAGUE, INC. 13 14 15 MR. KEITH E. SAXE United States Department of Justice 16 Environmental & Natural Resources Division General Litigation Section 17 601 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Room 879 18 Washington, D.C. 20004 19 COUNSEL FOR UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 20 21 22 23 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 3 1 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S 2 PAGE 3 AGREEMENTS OF COUNSEL. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 EXAMINATION OF RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., VOLUME I 5 BY MS. STINSON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 WITNESS' SIGNATURE PAGE. . . . . . . . . . . . 74 7 CORRECTION SHEET . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75 8 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE . . . . . . . . . . . . 77 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 4 1 E X H I B I T S 2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 1 Memorandum to G. Johns from R. Lacewell dtd 5/21/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 4 5 2 Memorandum to G. Johns from R. Lacewell, L. Jones and T. Ozuna dtd 6/3/92 . . . . 37 6 3 Letter to G. Johns from Peterson Consulting 7 dtd 7/31/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47 8 4 Handwritten Notes - 20-Year Analysis . . 59 9 5 Handwritten Notes . . . . . . . . . . . 70 10 6 Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones dtd 10/23/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90 11 7 Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones and 12 R. Lacewell dtd 8/28/92 . . . . . . . . 91 13 8 Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones dtd 8/4/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102 14 8-A Memorandum to K. Saxe from L. Jones. . . 15 9 Handwritten Notes to S. Ponzoli . . . . 112 16 10 Fax to S. Ponzoli dtd 1/22/93 . . . . . 112 17 11 Florida Sugar Cane League Summary of 18 Hazen & Sawyer's Potential Economic Impacts Analysis . . . . . . . . . . . . 164 19 12 Economic Effects of the SWIM Plan on 20 Sugarcane Production in the Everglades Agricultural Area of Florida . . . . . . 174 21 13 Memorandum to K. Saxe from R. Lacewell 22 dtd 6/16/92. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 284 23 14 Letter to R. Rosenberg from I. Hirschhorn dtd 5/21/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 5 1 E X H I B I T S 2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 15 Florida Sugar Cane League Summary of Hazen & Sawyer's Potential . . . . . . . 4 16 Notes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 17 Letter to G. Johns from L. Jones . . . . 6 18 Agricultural Property Tax Assessment in 7 the EAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 19 Review of World Price Situation. . . . . 9 20 Review of World Price Situation. . . . . 10 21 Letter to G. Johns to Peterson Consulting dtd 7/31/92 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 22 Debt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 23 The Validity of Benefits Transfers: 13 The Case of the Florida Everglades . . . 14 24 Issues Related to the Profitability of Farming in the EAA Draft 6/15/92 . . . . 15 25 Memorandum to K. Saxe from T. Ozuna 16 dtd 7/30/92. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 6 1 A G R E E M E N T S 2 DEPOSITION AND ANSWERS of RONALD D. LACEWELL, 3 Ph.D., VOLUME I, who resides in Bryan, Brazos 4 County, Texas, taken herein by Counsel for 5 PETITIONERS, before Lori A. Belvin, a Certified 6 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 7 State of Texas, on March 1, 1993, between the hours 8 of 3:15 P.M. to 5:00 P.M. at the Hilton Hotel, 9 Conference Room IV, located at 801 University Drive 10 East, College Station, Brazos County, Texas, 11 pursuant to NOTICE and the following stipulations 12 and agreements: 13 IT WAS AGREED by and between counsel for the 14 Petitioners and Respondent, in the above-numbered 15 and styled cause, that all formalities specifically 16 waived and that the oral deposition of 17 RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., VOLUME I, may be taken 18 herein forthwith before Lori A. Belvin, a Certified 19 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 20 State of Texas, said deposition being taken with the 21 same force and effect as though all the requirements 22 of the statutes and rules had been fully complied 23 with. 24 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that no objections need be 25 made by any party at the time of taking said PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 7 1 deposition, except objections as to the form of the 2 question or the responsiveness of the answer, which 3 if not made during the deposition are waived; but if 4 and when said deposition, or any portion thereof, is 5 offered in evidence on the trial of this cause by 6 any party hereto, it shall be subject to any and all 7 other legal objections, such objections to be made 8 at the time of the tender, the same as though the 9 witness were on the stand personally testifying. 10 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that the witness shall 11 sign the deposition transcript before any notary 12 public or official authorized to administer oaths; 13 and, at such time, the witness has the privilege of 14 reading over said transcript and making any 15 corrections that he finds to be necessary such 16 corrections to be made in accordance with the Rules 17 of Civil Procedure. 18 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that in the event the 19 original deposition transcript is not signed by the 20 witness within 20 days of receipt and filed at the 21 time of trial or any hearing, that the original or a 22 certified copy of said transcript may be filed in 23 court and used herein as though the witness had 24 signed said original transcript. 25 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that after said deposition PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 8 1 transcript has been returned to the deposition 2 officer along with changes, if any, made by the 3 witness in accordance with the Rules of Civil 4 Procedure, that the original deposition transcript, 5 together with copies of all exhibits, will be 6 delivered to MS. DONNA H. STINSON for safekeeping 7 and use in trial. 8 IT WAS FURTHER AGREED that after said deposition 9 transcript has been returned to counsel in 10 accordance with these stipulations and agreements, 11 it will be treated by the parties hereto and may be 12 used herein with the same force and effect as though 13 all statutes and rules relating to the taking and 14 returning into court of depositions had been fully 15 complied with. 16 * * * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 9 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 * * * 3 THE REPORTER: Ladies and gentlemen, 4 we're on the record; and I don't know 5 if y'all are following any certain 6 stipulations or anything like that; 7 but a lot of times if you'll just make 8 a quick short statement in the record, 9 it makes it real clear for everybody. 10 MS. STINSON: I presume -- 11 MR. BURGESS: I think we've been 12 reserving all objections other than as 13 to form. 14 * * * 15 RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., 16 having been first duly cautioned and sworn upon 17 his oath to tell the truth, the whole truth 18 and nothing but the truth, testified as follows, 19 to wit: 20 * * * 21 E X A M I N A T I O N 22 * * * 23 BY MS. STINSON: 24 Q. Would you please state your name and 25 address. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 10 1 A. My name is Ronald D. Lacewell. My address 2 is 3513 Parkway Terrace, Bryan, Texas. 3 Q. Is that your home address? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is your business address? 6 A. Department of Agricultural Economics, 7 Texas A & M University, College Station, Texas. 8 Q. How long have you been with Texas A & M? 9 A. January 1970. 10 Q. Would you go through, please, for me 11 briefly your educational background and your 12 professional experience? 13 A. Educational background would be high school 14 degree from Lockney, Texas; Bachelor's Degree, B.S. 15 in Agricultural Economics from Texas Tech 16 Univerisity; Master of Science from Texas Tech 17 University in Lubbock, Texas; Ph.D. in Agricultural 18 Economics from Oklahoma State University. 19 Q. And you have been with Texas A & M since 20 you received your Ph.D.? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Back in 1970? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I take it you're a Professor of 25 Agricultural Economics; is that correct? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 11 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you have any particular subspecialty or 3 expertise within that field? 4 A. The areas that I specialize in are farm 5 management, production economics, and resource 6 economics -- natural resource economics. 7 Q. What was the second one of those things? 8 A. Production economics. 9 Q. Can you describe briefly for me, please, 10 those three areas, what they consist of? 11 A. Farm management would be the allocation of 12 resources at the farm firm, levels of production, 13 farm organization. 14 Production economics is many of the same 15 traits. They use production economic theory for 16 allocation resources. It can get to a more 17 aggregate level. So you might want to work on a 18 regional level. 19 And resource economics would have to do 20 with the use of natural resources, such as, water, 21 land, how it impacts air, things like this, just the 22 use of the resources. 23 Q. Do you do consulting in addition to your 24 work at the university, private consulting? 25 A. Yes. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 12 1 Q. And I take it you have been retained by the 2 U.S. to provide your expertise in what I'll call the 3 Everglades litigation; is that correct? 4 A. Yes. I have been retained by the U.S. 5 government relative to agriculture in the EAA. 6 Q. What agency with the U.S. government has 7 retained you? 8 A. Justice Department. 9 Q. When were you retained? 10 A. I don't know the exact date. I would 11 approximate the spring of '92. 12 Q. And who contacted you? 13 A. The principal contact from the U.S. Justice 14 was Keith Saxe. 15 Q. And what is it that you've been asked to do 16 with respect to economics in the EAA? 17 A. The primary purpose of the relationship to 18 this point is to look at the work that's going on 19 and be -- to look at the work that's going on and 20 react to it, to evaluate its appropriateness, what 21 it looks like, is it being done correctly, a 22 review. 23 Q. When you say "look at the work being done," 24 by whom? 25 A. By anyone that's working on the agriculture PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 13 1 in the EAA. 2 Q. And that would include, I presume, 3 Hazen & Sawyer? 4 A. It would include Hazen & Sawyer. 5 Q. Did you work with Hazen & Sawyer or provide 6 input to them when they were doing their tenure 7 analysis? 8 A. We interacted with Hazen & Sawyer and met 9 with Hazen & Sawyer. 10 Q. Do you recall when and during what period 11 of time? 12 A. Again, I don't know the exact dates; but it 13 would be the period in the spring -- beginning in 14 the spring. 15 Q. Prior to their draft final report? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you meet with Grace Johns or anyone 18 else from Hazen & Sawyer prior to that draft report? 19 A. We have met with her, yeah. 20 Q. Prior to that draft final? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times? 23 A. It's once or twice before the draft 24 report. It was one or two. I don't recall which. 25 Q. Do you recall how many since then? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 14 1 A. Excuse me? 2 Q. How many times have you met with her or 3 someone from Hazen & Sawyer since then? 4 A. Since then twice, I believe. Again, I'm 5 not exactly positive. Twice is what I would say. 6 Q. Did Grace Johns or anyone from 7 Hazen & Sawyer contact you and ask you to review 8 their work in progress before the report was 9 written? How did that work? 10 A. We contacted her, indicating that we would 11 be interested in reviewing the work; and she said 12 that she would be extremely pleased to have people 13 look at the work. 14 She then provided us documents that we 15 would review, and we'd have feedback on those 16 documents then of our input, our ideas, our 17 reactions, which she then could take or not take as 18 she saw fit. 19 Q. So you reviewed preliminary drafts and 20 commented on them before they were incorporated into 21 the final work? 22 A. One preliminary draft, I recall. 23 Q. Did Ms. Johns or Hazen & Sawyer incorporate 24 any of your comments or suggestions into the final 25 draft? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 15 1 A. That's a tougher answer, in that she was 2 getting input from several different directions at 3 the same time. So ours was only one voice, and I 4 would have to look at the draft that we reviewed and 5 the final draft; and I've never laid those down side 6 by side. 7 We had input to her at each point and then, 8 generally, just went on. So I can't tell you that 9 she made a change based on our input. 10 And if she made a change, I'm not sure it 11 was based on our input; but she got our input and 12 she's really a very, very good economist. She 13 reacted to that in the way she felt appropriate. 14 Q. Have you been asked to or have you done any 15 independent analysis of the economics in the EAA, 16 apart from reviewing other people's work? 17 A. We have done an analysis using the 18 Sugar & Sweetner Report. 19 Q. You say "we." Who do you mean? 20 A. Dr. Jones and I. 21 Q. Has that been presented anywhere? 22 A. Dr. Jones presented it to the funding 23 council, I believe. I'm not sure who he presented 24 it to, but he presented it in Florida. 25 Q. Recently or do you know when? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 16 1 A. June -- time out. What's this, January? 2 Q. March. 3 A. February. 4 Q. Of '93? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. This last month? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. You worked on that with him? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In the three areas of -- or subareas of 11 expertise, which you've described to me, you did not 12 mention impact analysis. Do you consider yourself 13 an expert in that field? 14 A. No. 15 Q. On a list of projects that you have 16 provided, you indicate you conducted a "National 17 Analysis of Boll Weevil Eradication with Results 18 that were Unpopular with the USDA Cotton Farmers," 19 et cetera. 20 When did you do that, and by whom were you 21 retained to do that? 22 A. The directors of the Southern Agriculture 23 Experiment Stations asked us to do that. I don't 24 remember the date. 25 Q. Year? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 17 1 A. It's been many years ago. 2 Q. Many years. 3 A. In the 70's. 4 Q. What about the "Economic Analysis of 5 Ethanol Production," when did you do that? 6 A. We did that study, as I recall, during -- 7 we began those during the energy crisis of the 70's, 8 I believe, the late 70's. 9 Q. You indicate here that was also unpopular 10 with certain persons, correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 MR. SAXE: Can I see the document 13 you're referring to, Counsel? 14 MS. STINSON: Sure. 15 MR. SAXE: Thank you. 16 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) You indicate you have 17 participated in hearings in Washington, as well as 18 Texas, several times. 19 Can you tell me what hearings? 20 A. In Texas -- 21 Q. What types of hearings, first of all? 22 A. Legislative hearings. And Texas was one, 23 and then racehorse -- the racing commission hearings 24 on licensing racetracks. 25 Q. In Texas? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 18 1 A. In Texas. 2 Q. And what was your testimony? 3 A. The one for legislative hearings had to do 4 with the gasohol issue where we presented our 5 results. 6 The racing commission related to 7 feasibility studies that we had done on particular 8 tracks and whether they looked economically viable 9 or not. 10 Q. Was this testimony in a judicial-type forum 11 or a congressional-type forum? Do you understand my 12 question? 13 A. Yeah. Congressional would be the gasohol 14 issue. Both would be congressional; I believe, it's 15 not judicial. The racing commission was only 16 bringing hearings to decide whether to issue a 17 license or not. 18 Q. And what about in Washington D.C.? 19 A. I can't give you specifics, but I testified 20 at the request of the chancellor of A & M and some 21 other administrators on new production systems, 22 integrated pest management for crop production, 23 irrigation technology, issues like that. 24 Q. Have you done that on a regular basis or 25 how often? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 19 1 A. Irregular basis. 2 Q. Before whom? 3 A. These would be committees, congressional 4 committees. 5 Q. Have you ever provided expert testimony in 6 a litigation or judicial-type forum? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell me where and what? 9 A. There was a lawsuit in Arkansas that I was 10 retained as an expert witness that related to a 11 dairyman and a feed mill. 12 So I worked for a law firm in Arkansas. 13 Q. What was the substance of your testimony? 14 A. It related to the economic well-being of a 15 dairyman. 16 Q. What do you mean by "economic well-being"? 17 A. Whether or not he was in a position of 18 bankruptcy or not bankruptcy. 19 Q. By whom were you retained? 20 A. By the insurance company that was insuring 21 some equipment that the dairyman bought. 22 Q. And when was that? 23 A. Several years ago. 24 Q. Okay. Do you recall, were you qualified as 25 an expert witness at any hearing or at trial? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 20 1 A. This went through deposition, and I was an 2 expert witness. It was settled before trial. 3 Q. Any other instances that you have testified 4 in a judicial-type forum? 5 A. Not that I recall. 6 Q. What courses do you teach? 7 A. I teach a graduate class in Production 8 Economics. 9 Q. That's all? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Lucky. 12 A. That's enough. 13 Q. Do you, also, do research on behalf of the 14 university? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. And are you currently working on research 17 on behalf of the university? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What research? 20 A. That's a broad question. I have several 21 projects that I am the project investigator -- 22 principal investigator on that involve both research 23 sponsored by the university and contract research. 24 Q. You mean that you do privately? 25 A. No. I mean, contracts that are brought to PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 21 1 the university. 2 Q. Can you tell me what projects you're 3 working on? 4 A. Contracts that I currently have would be 5 one with the Soil Conservation Service in 6 Washington. That's to do farm level analysis to 7 address resource issues of land and water 8 conservation. 9 Q. In Texas or generally -- 10 A. United States. 11 MR. BURGESS: I'm sorry. For land and 12 water? 13 THE WITNESS: Conservation. 14 A. I've got two contracts with the State Soil 15 Conservation Service. One is to evaluate best 16 management practices for dairy waste management. 17 The other is a cooperative contract through 18 them and the Corps of Engineers to evaluate drainage 19 in the lower Rio Grande Valley. 20 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Evaluate it how? 21 A. Benefits of agricultural drainage. 22 Q. The question is whether land should be 23 drained, or what's the question? 24 A. The question is: What are the benefits and 25 costs of a project in the lower Rio Grande Valley. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 22 1 And so you have to evaluate and estimate 2 the benefits for agricultural and urban and then 3 compare it to the costs for a project that's 4 sponsored by the Corps of Engineers. 5 Q. Is this a proposed project? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. A particular proposed project? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. There's others. 11 Q. Can you tell me what they are? 12 A. The United States Geological Survey is a 13 cooperative project with Purdue to evaluate the 14 impact of farmer practices on surface water 15 quality. 16 Q. In what area? 17 A. The White River of Indiana. Through the 18 Texas Water Resources Institute, again, with 19 U.S.G.S. 20 I have a project to look at the impact of 21 farmer practices on groundwater quality on the 22 Seymour Acquifer of Texas. 23 A university-funded research, I don't 24 recall the contract at this second. The 25 university-funded contracts will include some work PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 23 1 on economic impacts of integrated pest management 2 for pecan production. 3 Q. For what production? 4 A. Pecan production. Often we are issuing 5 strategies for irrigation for the 6 Ogallala Acquifer, O-g-a-l-l-a-l-a. 7 That's all I recall at this point. 8 Q. We have a stack of documents here that I'd 9 like to start going through, anyway. Some of 10 these -- I don't know how we'll do it, if I want to 11 put something in, but we'll look at them 12 MR. BURGESS: Aim for it. 13 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion 14 off the record.) 15 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) I'll just go through them 16 in numeric order here. A document -- it's a table 17 from something, "Farms with Sales of 10,000 or 18 more." 19 Can you tell me, if you recall, what it's 20 from and why you have that, what you used it for? 21 A. This is from a Census of Agriculture, 22 provides 1982 and 1987 results; and it's from 23 Florida. I'm fairly sure this is 24 Palm Beach County. And this was for general 25 information that I Xeroxed this to just begin to get PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 24 1 some overview of agriculture in 2 Palm Beach County Florida. 3 Q. Are there any specific numbers in here that 4 you've used that you know of? 5 A. Not a one. 6 Q. Here's some handwritten notes titled, 7 "Palm Beach County 1987 Census of Ag." 8 Can you tell me what that is and what those 9 numbers represent? 10 A. Again, this is some of that information. 11 This was taken before that information. 12 Q. When you say "that," you mean the last 13 document? 14 A. Yeah. Right. So this came from the 15 Census of Agriculture, pulled these numbers. 16 I wanted more information than this to see 17 what else was there, so that's when I just Xeroxed 18 the information, the census. I did not use this 19 information for any particular purpose. 20 Q. Do you know whose handwriting that is? 21 A. It's a student worker of mine. 22 Q. So what you told me is the first document I 23 showed you has more information than the handwritten 24 one? 25 A. Yes, it is. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 25 1 Q. You also apparently have in your files an 2 article by Dr. Ozuna and Dr. Stahl, "The 3 Significance of Data Collection and Econometric 4 Methods." Did you use that article for any 5 particular purpose? 6 A. No, I didn't use that for any purpose. 7 Q. Particular or not, right? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Here's a document entitled, "Proposal to 10 Evaluate the Economic Impact of Implementing the 11 Marjory Stoneman Douglas Everglades Restoration Act 12 and U.S. versus SFWMD Settlement Agreement." 13 The proposal has a date of December 20 on 14 it. I noticed it was faxed to you on April 2, '92. 15 Can you tell me when, in relation to the 16 time you were retained, you received that document, 17 if that would help you remember when you were first 18 contacted. 19 A. As I recall, this document preceded the 20 point when I was retained and -- 21 Q. Had you had preliminary conversations at 22 that point? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. BURGESS: I'm sorry. Did you 25 identify the fax date as the date PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 26 1 which preceded your attention or the 2 document report date? 3 THE WITNESS: The fax date. 4 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Did you make or have any 5 comments on the proposal to evaluate the economic 6 impact? 7 A. I didn't have a response relative to 8 whether it was a good proposal or a bad proposal. 9 Q. Did you have any response relative to 10 whether it covered the items that should be covered; 11 or was it a factor that should be looked at? 12 A. No, I didn't address that. 13 Q. You have, also, in your files a document 14 entitled, "Everglades Restoration, A Progress Report 15 February '92." 16 Are you familiar with that document? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you recall when you received that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Have you reviewed it? 21 A. I've read it. 22 Q. Have you made any comments, either written 23 or oral, on that document? 24 A. No. 25 Q. A handwritten document entitled, PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 27 1 "Everglades Planning Document." 2 Is that your handwriting? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is that document? 5 A. These are notes I took as I read through 6 the Everglades Planning Document that points out 7 points in the document. 8 Q. When you say "Everglades Planning 9 Document," do you mean the SWIM plan? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall when you made these notes? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Well, let's see if we can -- did you 14 provide these notes to anyone or these comments? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. You have, "SPA 319 million 17 construction/land purchase." 18 Is that a number you got out of the 19 SWIM plan? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. "$700 per acre of agriculture land." Is 22 that what that says? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you know what that refers to? 25 A. I don't know if that's from the SWIM plan PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 28 1 or something I calculated. I really haven't been 2 back to this. I went through it one time, reading 3 it. 4 Q. The numbers at the bottom, the 312, 2.6, 5 et cetera, do you recall whether those numbers are 6 out of the SWIM document? 7 A. As I recall these numbers, these were the 8 numbers that were in the document and the amount 9 that applied to each one of these items. And I 10 wrote them down straight out of that document. 11 Q. Okay. Another handwritten document -- 12 A. I was busy, wasn't I? 13 Q. -- called, "Budgets for Rice," and then it 14 says, "Alvarez 1992." 15 Can you tell me, are those your notes? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you tell me what they reflect? 18 A. These notes are very analogous to the ones 19 you just looked at, in that I reviewed a publication 20 from IFAS that talked about rice; and these are 21 points I took directly out of that document, that 22 would be in the document. 23 Q. Do you recall the name of the document or 24 the publication? 25 A. You should have a copy of the document PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 29 1 somewhere in those records. 2 Q. All right. Maybe we'll get to it. 3 In these notes, do you draw any 4 conclusions; or they're simply writing down what was 5 in the document? 6 A. Only writing down what the documents say. 7 Q. We've got another one, "turf grass, sod, 8 IFAS" -- and then something on the -- 9 "Haydu & Cisar," I think. 10 Can you tell me what that document is? 11 A. Haydu & Cisar. This is an IFAS Report, 12 economic report, ER '92, I believe, March 1992. 13 And, again, this is the same thing. I was 14 reviewing these articles and I was writing down 15 specific points out of these different reports and 16 that's all that is, is a duplication of notes that 17 are in those reports. 18 Q. You have, also, in your files a letter and 19 proposal from Burns & McDonald on the Everglades 20 protection project. 21 Did you review and comment on that at all? 22 A. I didn't review; I read it and didn't 23 comment on it. 24 Q. More notes. It first says, "How are costs 25 of SWIM allocated." PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 30 1 Can you tell me what these notes are from? 2 A. These notes came from -- I believe these 3 came from a report by the Wilderness Society; and 4 the title, I don't know. You should have a copy of 5 that report somewhere. And this, again, was reading 6 through that report writing down notes that I took 7 out of that report. 8 Q. We may get to it. If we don't, do you 9 recall if the author of that was Craig Diamond? 10 A. Diamond was the author of a report or 11 reports I read; but whether that's exactly it, I'm 12 not positive. Likely. 13 Q. It appears on this document regarding the 14 Wilderness Society report that you make some 15 comments that may not be straight out of the 16 document. 17 Let me ask you. You say here, "What 18 percent of the South Florida projects can be 19 allocated to Ag and what part to urban"? Is that a 20 question you had in reading the document or -- 21 A. There's no answer in this document. I 22 don't know the answer to that question. 23 Q. Then you have, "1.75 million acres 24 benefitted by projects, 726,000 new acres," I guess, 25 and "530,000 in EAA." PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 31 1 Is that out of the document? 2 A. It's out of some document, but I wouldn't 3 swear that it's out of the Wilderness Society 4 document. But it's out of a document, and I didn't 5 notate exactly where I picked those up. 6 Q. There's another question here, "Does SFWMD 7 accept Wilderness Society O & M Distribution." 8 What was that? 9 A. That was a question that I had when I went 10 through it. Boy, let me think about what was -- I 11 was visiting with some people; and Craig Diamond, on 12 this report, had raised an issue about whether the 13 District approved that report or not or like that 14 report. And so that was a question I wanted to 15 follow up on. 16 Q. Did you ever get an answer? 17 A. No. I'm not sure I ever asked the point 18 blank question, to tell you the truth, to anyone at 19 the District relative to that particular report. 20 Q. A comment here, "Sugar program involves 21 Government cost, but true cost is cost to consumers 22 of high market price compared to world price." 23 Is that your own comment or something out 24 of the document? 25 A. No. That's the comment -- I believe that's PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 32 1 in both places. 2 Q. Both places being -- 3 A. Being that -- 4 Q. -- what two places? 5 A. -- there is a cost, in my mind, from the 6 sugar program to U.S. consumers; and I can't tell 7 you if that's in the document or not. I don't 8 know. 9 Q. That may just be your own note -- 10 A. It very well could be. 11 Q. -- or thought. Okay. 12 You have -- third page of notes is dated 13 4/27/92. It begins, "50,000 live in EAA, 14,000 of 14 50,000 employed, quality of input data major 15 issue." Are these notes from a document, or do you 16 recall? 17 A. This page right here, to the best of my 18 knowledge, was a conversation that I had with 19 Grace Johns fairly early; and when she had -- fairly 20 early in the analysis when she was grabbing things. 21 And I think this is just a set of notes 22 that I was taking as we visited on the telephone. 23 Q. Is that information you obtained from her 24 or information you were providing to her or both? 25 A. Primarily obtained from her. It would be PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 33 1 what she was beginning to develop. 2 Q. The numbers that you have in the column one 3 says, "U.S. sugar." I'm not sure what the next one 4 says. What are those numbers? 5 A. Again, my recall is that these are the 6 acres in the EAA that are owned or farmed by those 7 entities. 8 Q. Was that information you obtained from 9 Ms. Johns? 10 A. I didn't obtain that information myself. 11 Q. Here's a phone memo from Lynch. 12 Do you recall who he is and what you talked 13 to him about or her? I reckon it's a him. 14 A. Lynch wrote a report on the cost of BMP's. 15 Q. Did you talk to him about that? 16 A. I called him and asked him for a copy of 17 the report, which he subsequently sent to me. 18 Q. Did you review that report and analysis? 19 A. I read it, yes. 20 Q. Did you make comments on that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Another telephone memo, David Legg, I 23 believe. Do you recall who he is, and what you 24 talked to him about? 25 A. He was with the Soil Conservation Service, PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 34 1 and I visited with him about a soil survey for 2 Palm Beach County; and he said he would provide one 3 for $15.50. And I said, "Okay." 4 Q. What does that survey show? 5 A. The soil survey is a soil survey of the 6 county that shows the different soils across 7 Palm Beach County, primary productivity. 8 Soil surveys are developed for every county 9 in the United States. 10 Q. Did you use that information in some way? 11 A. I didn't use it. I reviewed over some 12 discussions of the soils, to get an idea of what the 13 soils were like. 14 Q. What about a conversation with 15 Dale Bocher? 16 A. Bocher, yes, I talked to Dale. 17 Q. What did you speak with Mr. Bocher about, 18 if you recall? 19 A. Best management practices and the work that 20 he was doing relative to best management practices 21 on farm for control of phosphorus discharge. 22 Q. Were you also at one point -- well, have 23 you looked at the cost of BMP's and analyzed or 24 reviewed people's work regarding BMP's? 25 A. I read the Lynch report and the work that PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 35 1 Bocher has done. 2 Q. Have you provided commentary on that to 3 anyone as part of your work? 4 A. No. 5 Q. John Haydu, University of Florida? 6 A. Haydu. 7 Q. Haydu? 8 A. Yes. I called him and asked for a report 9 on turf grass and sod, which he mailed to me. 10 Q. Is that report some kind of official 11 application? 12 A. IFAS report. 13 Q. George Strain, Corps of Engineers? 14 A. Corps of Engineers, yes. 15 Q. When did you speak with him? 16 A. What's the date on that? 17 Q. 5/13. 18 A. Oh, that's early. Jacksonville. I was 19 interested in determining what the Corps of 20 Engineers expenditures were relative to the 21 South Florida Water Management Flood Control 22 Project. 23 Q. Did you get that information? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Why not? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 36 1 MR. SAXE: Objection to the form. 2 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) You can answer, anyway. 3 A. I'm not sure why I didn't get that 4 information, primarily, because it's not assimilated 5 in a way that it's convenient to provide. 6 No more phone messages? 7 Q. Not yet. 8 MS. STINSON: I'll put this one in. 9 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion 10 off the record; and 11 Exhibit No. 1 was marked 12 for identification.) 13 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Would you identify 14 Deposition Exhibit 1, please. 15 A. May 21. This is a letter I wrote to 16 Grace Johns where I was just conveying some thoughts 17 as a result of discussions in review of some 18 materials I'd looked at to see if it might be of 19 help to her. 20 Q. Did you make her aware that you were acting 21 on behalf of the U.S. Justice Department? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. SAXE: Objection to form. 24 What do you mean by, "acting on 25 behalf of the U.S. Department PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 37 1 Justice"? 2 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Have been retained by the 3 U.S. Department Justice? 4 A. I told her that we were retained by the 5 Justice Department, and our objective was to review 6 anything that she'd like for us to review and to 7 help her have as good a study as she could do, with 8 anything we could do to help her. 9 Q. Did you have any conversations with her 10 regarding Exhibit 1; or did you get feedback from 11 her on it, either oral or written? 12 A. Again, as I recall, she did call back and 13 indicated that she already had the Lynch report and 14 was considering most of these ideas anyway. 15 But that it was, "Thanks. I appreciate 16 your help." That's all. 17 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion 18 off the record; and 19 Exhibit No. 2 was marked 20 for identification.) 21 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) If you'd identify 22 Exhibit 2, please. 23 A. This is a fax that was sent by me, 24 Lonnie, and Teofilo Ozuna on 6/3/92 to Grace Johns. 25 Q. What does it represent, and why was it PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 38 1 sent? 2 A. At this point, Dr. Johns was working on her 3 first draft, I believe of the report; and we had 4 visited with her and her with us. And she indicated 5 some pieces were being completed and we said, "We'd 6 be glad to look at some of those." 7 And she said, "Which ones?" 8 And we said, "Then, we'll write down some 9 things that if you can provide these to us, we'll be 10 glad to review them in a very quick turnaround-type 11 approach." 12 And she said, "Well, send me a copy." 13 We did, and this is them (indicating). 14 Q. These are the items that you were 15 requesting that she send you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. To look at? 18 A. (Witness nods head.) 19 Q. Did she send those things? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did she send any of them? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you know why not? 24 A. No. We talked on the telephone and she 25 indicated how she was going to handle some different PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 39 1 things and how she was doing some of these, but she 2 didn't provide us hard copy of any of this in 3 response to this fax. But she did call back. 4 Q. Did you discuss those items with her? 5 A. A few of them, and I don't recall which 6 ones or what points. 7 Q. Okay. Item 1 says, "Crop enterprise 8 budgets: Each crop separately." And there are some 9 other subparts. 10 Do you know whether she had that 11 information? 12 A. She did. She used the IFAS budgets exactly 13 like we would have done. Yes, she did that like any 14 production economist would. 15 Q. You say here, "For current conditions and 16 with SWIM over the 20-year planning horizon." 17 At that point, was she doing a 20-year 18 look? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know why it changed to a 10-year 21 analysis? 22 A. No. 23 Q. "GIS Reports for the EAA." What is GIS? 24 A. Geographic Information Systems, and it's 25 database that gives you -- if they have been PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 40 1 developed -- detail relative to slope soils and 2 things of this nature. 3 Q. Did you obtain those reports? 4 A. The question was: Are there reports? 5 And I don't believe the GIS database has 6 been developed for the EAA as detailed. 7 Q. What is your note by "Point E"? 8 Can you read that? 9 A. "Owner patterns; anything on ownership of 10 land and EAA." That is just what are you doing on 11 ownership. 12 Q. Okay. 3.3 is "soil subsidence." 13 Did you obtain any information on soil 14 subsidence? 15 A. There is a journal article in some of the 16 material you have that's generic that talks about 17 soil subsidence from Muck soils, and there's an 18 IFAS report that she already had that talked about 19 soil subsidence in the EAA. 20 She had the material that we had located 21 already. 22 Q. Point 4, "Taxes paid and reduction by 23 deleting the acres in STA's from the tax base." 24 Did you obtain that information? 25 A. No. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 41 1 Q. Did Dr. Johns have that information? 2 A. She did include that, yes. 3 Q. No. 5, "Economic model formulation." And 4 you have some subparts under that. 5 What are you talking about? Do you recall? 6 A. That's a good question. These were 7 questions that we were interested in knowing how she 8 was going to handle farm policy, is there a water 9 availability restriction, what was she planning to 10 do about costs. 11 So primarily these were issues that we were 12 saying, "How are you going to build these things, 13 and what are you going to use?" 14 So we didn't have for her a 15 recommendation. We were saying, "What are you going 16 to do?" 17 Q. "How are you going to build these," you 18 mean the model? 19 A. We were asking her what kind of cost prices 20 model she was going to do, yes. 21 Q. 6, "Strategy for reducing the economic 22 impacts as gleaned from other areas." Did you 23 obtain any feedback from her on that? 24 A. She did have some people call the Northwest 25 and California and different places; and that's PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 42 1 included in her final report, which is litigation. 2 Q. "Methodology selected for valuing the 3 Everglades." Does that refer to the so-called 4 "benefit report" as opposed to the "impact report"? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Points 8 and 9 also have to do with the 7 benefit report, do they not? 8 A. Yes, 8 does. 9 Q. 9 also? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. 10, "Information on the input/output model 12 chosen." Did you obtain that information from her? 13 A. The question was: What was she going to 14 use? She did tell us that she had visited with 15 Mulkey at the University of Florida IFAS; and she 16 was going to use the RIMSII multipliers. 17 Q. Did you have any feedback to her on that? 18 Did you comment to her? 19 A. It's a good decision. 20 Q. "A summary of the results of a survey of 21 local suppliers conducted last month". 22 Who did the survey? Do you know what 23 survey? 24 A. I don't recall that exactly, but I believe 25 that that was a Hazen & Sawyer survey. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 43 1 Q. Okay. Is that information contained in the 2 report? 3 A. I don't know. I'm not sure she got a 4 response. 5 Q. Okay. It says EEA -- I presume it's 6 supposed to be EAA -- "Employment and personal 7 income data by sector." Did you have that 8 information? 9 A. We didn't have that information. We wanted 10 to know what she was going to use. 11 Q. Did you find out? 12 A. Yes, eventually. 13 Q. Did you comment on that information? 14 A. I don't think there's any reason for a 15 comment on that. 16 Q. "Cost data on mill operations per ton of 17 cane." Did she provide to you that information or 18 did you obtain it? 19 A. Our question was: Where are you going to 20 get that information? What is that information? 21 At that point, we didn't realize that was 22 published information in the USDA Sugar & Sweetner 23 Report. 24 Q. "Construction and operation data for STA's 25 in terms of employment and earnings." What was the PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 44 1 question here, whether she had the data or -- 2 A. What was she was going to do. 3 Q. Is that information in the final report? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you receive it before the final report 6 and comment on it? 7 MR. SAXE: Objection to form. 8 A. We did look at her draft report before the 9 final report. 10 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Specifically with regard 11 to the construction and operation data for STA's, do 12 you recall whether you had any comments or -- 13 A. I can't recall whether that was a comment 14 we had or not, specifically. 15 Q. A document production request. "All 16 information collected on State and local taxes." 17 Did you obtain from her that information or 18 determine that she had correct information? 19 A. She has that in her final report. So she 20 took care of that. 21 Q. 16 and 17 are sort of catchalls. As I 22 gather, any drafts or other information she has. 23 Did you obtain any other documentation or 24 information from Dr. Johns? 25 A. She didn't send us any of this material. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 45 1 We had visited about some things on the telephone 2 that she would have some issue she wanted to talk 3 about. 4 Now, whether she fed some things to 5 Dr. Ozuna or Dr. Jones, that I was not part of the 6 cycle. I don't know. 7 Q. Okay. 8 MS. STINSON: Can we take a break? 9 MR. SAXE: Yeah. Five minutes. 10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 11 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Moving right along. I 12 have another telephone messenger. Eric Roche or 13 Roach. Do you recall the message? 14 A. Corps of Engineers? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. Same thing. I was wanting to get the cost 17 of operating Corps of Engineers' expenditures for 18 this project and was still unsuccessful. 19 Q. Xerox copies of photographs, which don't 20 tell me a whole lot. Can you tell me if you took 21 these, what they represent, why you took them. 22 A. These are photographs that would be around 23 Loxahatchee Refuge and coming around the Southern 24 part and Western part of the EAA. 25 Q. Did you take them? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 46 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Why did you take them? 3 A. To have a photographic history or 4 representation of some of the area that all of this 5 issue is evolving in. 6 Q. Is there anything particular about the 7 areas you photographed that's meaningful to your 8 work? 9 A. Construction on STA's, Everglades Nutrient 10 Removal. 11 Q. When were they taken? 12 A. The photographs were dated 7/17, so it 13 would have been slightly before that. 14 Q. I take it you made a trip to view the 15 scene? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How many such trips have you taken? 18 A. To view the scene? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. One. 21 Q. The one that these pictures represent? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The next document is a copy of a letter to 24 Dr. Johns from Peterson Consulting that has some 25 margin notes. Can you tell me if the margin notes PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 47 1 are yours? 2 A. That one is (indicating); that one is 3 (indicating); some of those are; that one is 4 (indicating); that one is (indicating). 5 Q. So are you saying some are and some are 6 not? 7 A. There's a couple in there that are not. 8 The bold is not mine. 9 MR. BURGESS: This is off the record. 10 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion 11 off the record; and 12 Exhibit No. 3 was marked 13 for identification.) 14 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) If you would, tell me 15 what your margin notes say. Explain them. 16 A. Well, the first note says, "Land values 17 decrease and changes hands, but analysis okay." 18 Q. What do you mean? 19 A. Let's see what they said. This is a letter 20 from Peterson to Grace Johns. Yes. The note from 21 Peterson relative to the draft report of 22 Hazen & Sawyer says that, "The draft report is 23 predicated on farmers in the EAA having no long-term 24 debt or any debt on machinery and equipment." 25 Then they make a long statement next to a PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 48 1 bullet about, "assuming no intermediate or long-term 2 debt." And they want to run some projections 3 assuming debt ranges from 15 to 7 percent of total 4 assets. What was your question? 5 Q. What does your note mean? What are you 6 saying? 7 A. What I've got is, "Land values decrease and 8 changes hands, but the analysis is okay." 9 My note simply indicates that I think that 10 the analysis of Hazen & Sawyer, relative to this 11 point, is probably still valid and their analysis 12 wouldn't change based on these suggestions. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. The next one. 15 Q. The next one. 16 A. The next note is "Wow." 17 Q. What does that refer to, and what are you 18 saying? 19 A. This is "Under implementation of rice." 20 Peterson's response is that, "The draft report 21 assumes that growers will grow rice on more than 22 60,000 acres of fallow lands and that rice will 23 provide net returns to the growers." 24 This particular bullet from Peterson is a 25 long statement. It talks about, "rice is a PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 49 1 break-even enterprise. There's a limited milling 2 capacity in the EAA," et cetera, et cetera. 3 And I'm reasonably sure that the "Wow" just 4 means, this is a really long statement and I didn't 5 mean any connotations of agree, disagree or anything 6 else. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. Page 6, Increased sugar production 9 efficiency, is the point Peterson's commenting on 10 under the second bullet. Let me read it and see if 11 it's worth talking about. 12 In this case -- I'm going to read this to 13 keep it straight. "The projection of historical 14 mill efficiencies to future periods may not be 15 appropriate for numerous reasons. Most mill 16 efficiencies are gained by expanding mill capacity. 17 Mill expansion requires increased acreage. 18 Decreases in acreage will negatively impact mill 19 efficiency. Also, the expansion to mechanical 20 harvesting is expected to negatively impact mill 21 efficiency in the near term." 22 The comment I made on that is, "Close some 23 mills and increase size of others -- cotton, gin, 24 for example." 25 What I meant by that is that all mills PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 50 1 don't have to become inefficient, and that there are 2 examples in Ag and non-Ag where there are changes 3 that take place and they're adjustments that take 4 place. And there are some survivors; and those that 5 do survive, become more efficient, generally larger, 6 and that you don't necessarily have a decrease in 7 efficiency of all mills that exist. 8 The same page, Peterson -- 9 Q. Let me ask you about that one. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. For that adjustment to occur, that some 12 mills would close and others would become more 13 efficient, would take some period of time, would it 14 not? 15 A. It could take some time, yes. 16 Q. Are you suggesting that that would 17 immediately happen as soon as some land went out of 18 production? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know how much land would have to go 21 out of production to make a mill close down, a sugar 22 mill? 23 A. I don't know the answer to that. With the 24 increases in sugar acreage, it would depend upon how 25 much acreage is coming in while some is going out. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 51 1 So what's the net change? I don't know the answer 2 to that, no. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not it is important 4 whether location of the field is related to the 5 location of the mills is an important factor? 6 A. I don't have a quantification of how that 7 affects cost, no. Is that all? 8 Q. Go on. 9 A. Assessment rates is the next issue that 10 Peterson Consulting addresses. And the comment they 11 made is that, " "We recommend that assessments above 12 $100 per acre also be presented for evaluation. 13 "Evaluation of assessments in excess of $100 14 is necessary given the fact that both the Everglades 15 SWIM plan and U.S. vs. SFWMD Settlement Agreement, 16 provided for enlargement of the STA's if the 17 presently proposed STA's do not function to reduce 18 nutrient concentrations in the target levels." 19 My comment is, "But all does not have to be 20 paid by farmers." And the only question I had there 21 is: How are they going to eventually allocate the 22 cost of the SWIM plan among South Florida or 23 whoever? 24 Q. Have you answered that question? 25 A. Absolutely not. Do you know anyone that PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 52 1 has? I'm sorry. You're asking me questions. 2 Q. Right. Point well taken. 3 A. Let's see. The next question is still 4 under "Assessment Rates." The point is -- "The 5 report overstates revenues by assuming multiple 6 harvest of certain vegetable crops. This assumption 7 is not consistent with grower practices in the EAA. 8 This assumption may be consistent with California 9 practices but is not applicable to the EAA." 10 My comment is, "So any decline is less than 11 estimated." And the point of that is that if they 12 used less harvest for vegetables, they'd have less 13 gross revenue and any change would be less than 14 estimated by Hazen & Sawyer of going from less gross 15 output. 16 The next point is ", Destruction of 17 Economic Value According to Peterson Consulting." 18 The bullet, in this case is, "These 19 conditions, in addition to other factors, cause 20 destruction of economic value which is not fully 21 addressed in the report. 22 "Destruction Of economic value is an 23 important economic impact that should be addressed 24 in the report." 25 The comment I made is, "But is there also PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 53 1 creation of economic value?" And that's an 2 unanswered question, perhaps, of: Are there other 3 trade-offs that you create something of value and 4 you don't simply destroy it? 5 Our last comment I have here is, the bullet 6 says, by Peterson, "Numerous businesses and vendors 7 and their manufacturers and suppliers impacted by 8 the above." 9 I'm not sure what that relates to, but my 10 comment is that "These are covered in indirect 11 impacts." My assumption is that Peterson Consulting 12 is saying that Hazen & Sawyer report did not 13 adequately evaluate the impact on business vendors 14 and manufacturers. 15 Q. And you disagree with Peterson? 16 A. I disagree with that. 17 Q. Another document with writing both on the 18 front and back. Is that writing yours? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What about on the back? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Then, I won't ask you about it. 23 Do you know whose it is? 24 A. The writing? 25 Q. Yes. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 54 1 A. I can guess, but I don't know whose it is, 2 no. 3 Q. Go ahead and guess. 4 A. Carl Woelche. 5 Q. Do you know why you would have a document 6 with Carl Woelche's notes on it? 7 MR. SAXE: Objection to form. 8 A. Yeah. Carl Woelche provided this to us, as 9 a matter of fact; and he didn't have a clean copy. 10 He had taken notes on a copy somewhere, and that's 11 what he had relative to that. 12 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Are you telling me the 13 notes are incidental? I mean, that he gave you the 14 document and just happened to have his notes? 15 A. That's right. He didn't have a clean 16 copy. 17 Q. Okay. Here's the same document with 18 different handwriting. Are those your notes? 19 A. No. And I don't even have a guess on those 20 are, but it was in my file. 21 Q. Apparently. Another document entitled, 22 "Implications of GATT Agreement for World Commodity 23 Markets, '93 to '98" by FARPI. Have you reviewed 24 that document? 25 A. No, ma'am. If I did anything, it was just PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 55 1 a cursory look at it. I didn't review it. 2 Q. "Agenda for the Everglades Restoration 3 Council on Funding Policy, August 7." 4 Did you attend that meeting? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Another telephone message. 7 A. I can tell by looking at the filled in -- 8 Q. Do you do that? 9 A. Yeah. That's a message to me. 10 Q. From Carl Woelche? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you speak with Carl Woelche? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. On or about August 25th? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall what the conversation was 17 about? 18 A. We discussed the Hazen & Sawyer Report. 19 Q. Can you elaborate, please, and tell me the 20 substance of the conversation? 21 A. I don't remember the details. He had an 22 agenda, and I reacted to his agenda. I don't 23 remember the details. It had to do with my 24 impression of it and the quality of the work. 25 Q. Okay. We'll go into that in more detail PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 56 1 later. 2 Here's a document. Can you just tell me 3 what it is and how you came to have it? 4 A. I can't tell you exactly who or where I got 5 this. What's the date on it, the 12th? 6 Q. Does it contain any information that you 7 have used in any fashion? 8 A. No, I haven't used any of it. I don't 9 recall exactly who gave me that. I folded it. 10 Q. "An Agenda for an Economic Impact Analysis 11 Meeting with League Economist, December 16." 12 Did you attend that meeting? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Another agenda with some handwritten 15 notes. Are those your notes? 16 A. Those are my notes. 17 Q. Did you provide those notes to anyone 18 either orally or in writing? 19 A. If I did, it was orally talking about this 20 agenda. 21 Q. With whom? 22 A. Here we go. Grace Johns. 23 Q. Okay. Did you work with her to develop the 24 agenda for that meeting? 25 A. No. I believe that agenda, if you look on PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 57 1 the front page, was developed by League economists. 2 Q. Did you provide your comments on the 3 League's agenda to Dr. Johns? 4 A. Verbally. 5 Q. I know where you stayed and where you 6 went. 7 A. I've got a very good research assistant 8 that tries very hard to keep me straight when I hit 9 the road. 10 Q. Oh, boy, this one's going to be fun. 11 A. Oh, my gosh. 12 Q. Are these your notes, and what are they 13 (indicating)? 14 A. Oh, yes, these are my notes. 15 Q. What are they notes of? 16 A. These are notes that I took in the 17 deposition of Carl Woelche, trying to put down the 18 questions and his response in every case. 19 Q. Just basically writing down what went on? 20 A. Exactly. You started the questioning and 21 there will be a place in here that I'll have 22 switched to the Florida Sugarcane League questioning 23 and it starts here (indicating). 24 Q. Could I have these typed up so I don't have 25 to do it myself? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 58 1 A. No. I tell you what you can do is you can 2 get the proceedings of the deposition, and you'll 3 have a lot better copy. 4 Q. Right. Let me back up on your CV again. 5 You worked for the USDA for a period of 6 time; is that right? 7 A. That's true. 8 Q. What did you do? 9 A. I worked for the Economic Research 10 Service. I was stationed in Stillwater, Oklahoma; 11 and I developed a model to estimate the benefits of 12 small watershed projects. 13 Q. Did you do that while you were in school? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Notes entitled, "20-Year analysis," what 16 are those notes of? 17 A. This is thinking out loud to myself, when 18 it was decided by someone to extend or redo the 19 Hazen & Sawyer analysis and go to 20 years rather 20 than 10 years. These were points that I wanted to 21 keep in my mind that would be important. 22 Q. You just sat down somewhere and jotted 23 those notes; it was not based on a conversation? 24 A. I did this in a hotel room by myself. It's 25 not inclusive. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 59 1 MS. STINSON: Let me have this marked, 2 if I could. 3 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit No. 4 4 was marked for identification.) 5 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) These are issues, though, 6 that you have listed out that you feel should be 7 addressed in the 20-year analysis generally? 8 A. Let me look at them. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. That's exactly what some of the points are 11 that I think that we need to have brought up. 12 Q. In the 20-year analysis? 13 A. For the 20-year analysis. 14 Q. Okay. You have a sort of side note here 15 that says, "Boggess, Grace talked to Boggess and 16 find out why H & S is lower than USDA on pie." 17 What is pie? 18 A. Pie stands for profit. It is an 19 abbreviation. 20 Q. First of all, do you know that 21 Hazen & Sawyer is lower than USDA on profit? 22 A. (Witness nods head.) 23 Q. What are you basing that comment on? 24 A. That comment would be based on an adjusted 25 profit across EAA for the acres, and if you PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 60 1 accumulate them for her 1994 base run, you would get 2 less than you'd get if you developed a profit value 3 from the Sugar & Sweetner Report and multiply it 4 times the acres of sugar in the EAA. 5 Q. Do you know why there is that difference? 6 Have you found out what the explanation is? 7 A. I haven't totally resolved that, but 8 partially it may be that Grace Johns begins 9 inflating costs; and by the time she gets to 1994, 10 she's inflated costs up to the point that if you 11 inflated the Sugar & Sweetner Report cost side, you 12 might be at the some point. 13 So my inclination at this point is that 14 inflation is affecting net of cost. 15 Q. That would be appropriate, would it not, 16 considering the effects of inflation? 17 A. You should consider that along with several 18 other things. 19 Q. Have you talked to Boggess about this 20 issue? 21 A. I asked him about that, and he didn't have 22 a resolution at the time and hadn't pursued it very 23 far. 24 Q. Do you recall approximately when these 25 notes were developed? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 61 1 A. Those were here sometime in December. And 2 I believe that's when they started the 20-year 3 analysis -- or the decision was made to do the 4 20-year analysis. 5 Q. When did you learn of that decision? 6 A. In December. 7 Q. From whom did you? 8 A. Probably Carl Woelche or Grace Jones. I 9 don't know. 10 Q. Did you speak with them on a regular basis 11 about the economic analysis? 12 A. Not on a regular basis, no. 13 Q. Do you recall, did one of them just call 14 you up and say, "Hey, did you know Hazen & Sawyer is 15 doing a 20-year analysis," or do you recall how you 16 learned? 17 A. I suspect that was at Carl Woelche's 18 deposition when it came up. 19 Q. That's when you learned -- 20 A. Grace Johns didn't call me and say, 21 "There's a 20-year analysis taking place." 22 Q. You believe you learned about it at Carl's 23 deposition? 24 A. Yes. 25 MS. STINSON: Off the record. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 62 1 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion 2 off the record.) 3 MS. STINSON: Back on the record. 4 THE WITNESS: On the record, all dates 5 are approximate that I might give. 6 MR. BURGESS: On the record, 7 assuming that Carl Woelche's 8 deposition was in January, does that 9 change your testimony as to when you 10 learned that it was a 20-year versus a 11 10-year study? 12 THE WITNESS: No. The best of my 13 recollection is I learned it at his 14 deposition. 15 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) It wouldn't have been 16 December, then, correct? 17 A. It wouldn't have been December. That was 18 wrong. 19 Q. You have another side note that says, 20 "Pub., Polopolus IFAS Report for 2/3/93 meeting, in 21 West Palm, provides insight into industry, health in 22 future." What report are you referring to? 23 A. There is an IFAS report that I don't know 24 the number of that was published in '92 based on 25 some work by a graduate student. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 63 1 And in this report there is some statements 2 relative to the opportunities for improving 3 efficiencies of the mills. 4 Q. Is that a report authored by Polopolus? 5 A. Yes, and others. 6 Q. Have you reviewed that report? 7 A. I've read that report. 8 Q. Another side note. If you would, read it 9 to me, please. I'm not sure I can. 10 A. This is a side note against a point called 11 "subsidence," and my bullet says, "SCS cannot help." 12 Q. What is SCS? 13 A. Soil Conservation Service, United States 14 Department of Agriculture. They do the soil 15 surveys. Beneath that, I've got a note that says, 16 "Wedgworth deposition, strong support for not 17 including subsidence as a major issue." 18 Q. Have you reviewed Mr. Wedgworth's 19 deposition? 20 A. I have read his deposition, yes. 21 Q. Next side note says, "next best use on 22 land, sugar on vegetable and sod land-pasture 23 replaces sugar." Can you tell me what you mean by 24 that note? 25 A. This is not a conclusion. But as I begin PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 64 1 to try to think of what kind of sequencing would 2 happen in the EAA, the question is: Would sugar be 3 able to move on vegetable land? And then after 4 sugar is uneconomic with sod then, go in the sugar 5 land in the last crop in the EAA, perhaps it would 6 be pasture or any other sequencing. 7 Q. Have you reached any conclusions on those 8 issues? 9 A. No. Not on that, no. 10 Q. The next side note says, "Productivity of 11 sod and vegetables must be produced." Does that 12 relate to what you just said, or is that a separate 13 side note? Can you explain it to me? 14 A. That's a separate side note. I don't know 15 why I used the word "produced." But the issue I've 16 got there relates to Hazen & Sawyer locking yields 17 for vegetables and sod and locking prices for 18 vegetables and sod, and I'm curious if there's not 19 any evidence relative to the increase in 20 productivity. 21 Q. Do you have an answer to that question? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Would you read me the last two side notes 24 on that page, if you can, and tell me what you're 25 saying. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 65 1 A. The first of the last two side notes is, 2 "Spreadsheet basis of Hazen & Sawyer model." 3 The second side note is, "Profit by Woelche 4 vs. USDA." What's your question on those? 5 Q. What are you saying and explain those. 6 A. The first is just a statement that 7 Hazen & Sawyer's analysis is really based on a 8 spreadsheet analysis. It's a point. 9 Q. Is that as opposed to a FLIPSIM analysis or 10 in addition to or what are you saying? 11 A. Analogous to. 12 Q. Analogous to? 13 A. "Profit by Woelche versus USDA," relates to 14 some numbers that Carl Woelche had generated with 15 the Sugar & Sweetner Report; and that is a question 16 I had when he talked about that in his deposition 17 and does it compare favorably with the 18 Sugar & Sweetner Report values. 19 Q. The same issue you had a note on before 20 relating to Boggess? 21 A. It's the same type of point. But in this 22 case, Carl Woelche used the Sugar & Sweetner Reports 23 to generate the numbers; and he got numbers that are 24 very close to Sugar & Sweetner's numbers then. 25 So the question I had is: For me to go PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 66 1 take a look at what he did versus what was in that 2 Sugar & Sweetner Report. 3 Q. Have you done that? 4 A. Yeah, they compare favorably. 5 Q. Meaning -- 6 A. They're approximately the same. 7 Q. The top of the third page you have a 8 heading called "Exercises." 9 What do you mean by that, or what are those 10 things described under "Exercises"? 11 A. Still, really a continuation of points that 12 I was making before, and it's -- in many cases just 13 ideas and thought processes; and what in the world 14 do we do next, what should be considered here, what 15 are some issues to be resolved, what is a logical 16 best way to approach this to get the best possible 17 answer that one could make on a 20-year analysis. 18 And these are just thoughts in passing of, how would 19 these fit, how do these type things fit. 20 Q. Have you provided this outline or these 21 comments to Grace Johns or anyone working on the 22 analysis? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you provided them to anyone other than 25 your Counsel and in production of documents? PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 67 1 A. No. 2 Q. Have you discussed orally basically these 3 issues with Dr. Johns or -- 4 A. I have discussed some specific points on 5 some of the issues with Dr. Johns, but not a general 6 discussion of that from beginning to end. 7 Q. Okay. Under "Exercises," you have 8 "concentration." What do you mean by that? 9 A. Concentration relates to acres per 10 landowner, and do we have more acres farmed by less 11 people. Is each farm getting bigger or smaller. 12 Q. Tell me the relevance of that question. 13 A. As you get larger, you can have economies 14 of size, which can make you more efficient. You can 15 spread fixed costs over more acres. 16 Q. You have another comment "integration." 17 What does that mean? 18 A. Integration in this case means integrating 19 the different services so that a particular business 20 entity may be involved in the farming operations; 21 they may own the supplying firms that supply them 22 their business, and they may own the mills. 23 And integration is a phenomenon that we're 24 observing in agriculture at this point in time where 25 they become vertically integrated, and they PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 68 1 integrate into the other sectors so that they're not 2 just farming, that they're also suppliers and 3 processors. 4 Q. "Factors of production and amount of each," 5 what do you mean by that? 6 A. Factors of production have to do with what 7 you're going to use to produce the crops. So a good 8 example would be, how much nutrients do you put on 9 the crop and what's the cost of each. 10 Q. "Processing characteristics and changes"? 11 A. It's a general question; how do they 12 process, how's it changing, and what's the likely 13 evolution in that business. 14 Q. Is this document simply your notes of 15 Mr. Wedgworth's deposition? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. BURGESS: Would you read that 18 question back. I'm sorry. 19 (WHEREUPON, the requested 20 portion of the record was read 21 by the court reporter.) 22 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Another document -- I 23 can't read the top line, but it does say "Woelche" 24 at the top. 25 A. You're really doing quite well reading PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 69 1 these. 2 Q. What is this document of notes? 3 A. This is notes to myself. 4 Q. Regarding what? 5 A. Regarding, one, I was very curious of how 6 either Carl Woelche or the South Florida Water 7 Management District felt about anything; and that's 8 a few of the points that I wanted to recall, 9 primarily listening to his deposition. And this was 10 prior to the deposition that I made these notes and 11 it was points that I was going to try to listen for 12 to see if I could get any insight relative to where 13 anybody felt about anything. 14 Q. Did you talk to Carl Woelche, individually, 15 about any of these questions? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You say, "Opinion of hatchet job on 18 Grace Johns." What hatchet job are you speaking of? 19 A. Now, some of these things are knee-jerk 20 reactions, Donna. 21 Q. I understand, but what are you referring 22 to? 23 A. I'm referring to very specifically 24 Dr. Polopolus' first rebuttal of her study. 25 Q. Have you, other than listening to PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 70 1 Carl Woelche's deposition, done any research or 2 talking to try to get answers to these questions? 3 A. No. No, I haven't. Let me look at the 4 questions. I say I haven't. I'm pretty sure I 5 haven't. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I have asked Grace Johns if she's looked at 8 the possibility of sugarcane acreage inside and 9 outside the EAA increasing, and she said that was 10 something she was going to think about. She didn't 11 have an opinion or data. 12 No, I haven't talked to anybody 13 specifically about those within the South Florida 14 Water Management District or anywhere else; and, 15 again, that was things I was hoping to get some 16 insight on from his deposition. 17 MS. STINSON: Would you mark this as 18 Exhibit 5, please. 19 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit No. 5 20 was marked for identification.) 21 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Real good information. 22 A. Golly, I am sorry about that. 23 MR. SAXE: Off the record. 24 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion 25 off the record.) PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 71 1 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) A document called, 2 "Everglades Restoration Council on Funding Policy." 3 Do you know where you got that document? 4 A. That was just in the files. I can't tell 5 you a date where or anything about it. 6 Q. Okay. A document entitled, "Florida Sugar 7 Industry, Its Evolution and Future Prospects." 8 Are those your notes at the very top? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know whose they are? 11 A. "Draft, Dr. Grace Johns, H.S., 12 Hazen & Sawyer." No, they're not mine. 13 Q. Do you know when this article was written 14 and whether it is a draft? 15 A. It is a draft. 16 MR. SAXE: Objection to form. 17 Whether this piece of paper, 18 whether this document is a draft? 19 MS. STINSON: Right. Correct. 20 MR. SAXE: Okay. 21 A. This particular document is a draft. I 22 can't tell you if the final looks exactly like it or 23 not, but that came out before the final was 24 published. 25 Q. (By Ms. Stinson) Did you comment on the PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 72 1 draft? Did you supply your comments to the authors? 2 A. Yes, I did comment on it, but I'm not sure 3 where they went. 4 Q. Do you have written comments somewhere? 5 A. They may be "to Counsel period." If you've 6 got -- it depends on what you've got. 7 Q. A document that consists of graphs and 8 charts, can you tell me what that is? 9 A. This particular document relates to work by 10 Bocher on BMP's. BMP's means "Best Management 11 Practices." 12 Q. Another document with bar graphs, do you 13 know where that came from, or is it something you 14 developed? 15 A. I did not develop this, and I don't know 16 where this came from. But this was set on top of my 17 stack of mail at some point when I came back in the 18 office. It doesn't even say that this is 19 South Florida. Oh, it does there, "Florida 20 sugarcane acreage." I can't give you the source of 21 that. 22 23 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 73 1 MS. STINSON: Off the record. 2 (WHEREUPON, there was discussion 3 off the record; and at the hour of 4 5:00 P.M., the deposition was 5 concluded.) 6 * * * 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 74 1 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS 2 I, RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., solemnly swear or 3 affirm under the pains and penalties of perjury that 4 the foregoing pages contain a true and correct 5 transcript of the testimony given by me at the time 6 and place stated with the corrections, if any, and 7 the reasons therefor noted on a separate sheet of 8 paper and attached hereto, and that I am signing 9 this before a Notary Public. 10 11 ____________________________ RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D. 12 13 STATE OF T E X A S * 14 COUNTY OF _______________ * 15 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME by 16 RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., on this, the 17 _______________ day of ________________, A.D., 18 1993. 19 _____________________________ 20 Notary Public, State of Texas 21 22 23 My Commission Expires: __________________________ 24 25 Job 1SUGA.FLOR00/0385 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 75 1 C O R R E C T I O N S T O T H E 2 D E P O S I T I O N O F 3 RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D. 4 PAGE/LINE ** READS ** SHOULD READ ** REASON 5 __________________________________________________ 6 __________________________________________________ 7 __________________________________________________ 8 __________________________________________________ 9 __________________________________________________ 10 __________________________________________________ 11 __________________________________________________ 12 __________________________________________________ 13 __________________________________________________ 14 __________________________________________________ 15 __________________________________________________ 16 __________________________________________________ 17 __________________________________________________ 18 __________________________________________________ 19 __________________________________________________ 20 __________________________________________________ 21 __________________________________________________ 22 __________________________________________________ 23 __________________________________________________ 24 ___________________________________ RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D. 25 Job 1SUGA.FLOROO/0385 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 76 1 STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF HARRIS * 3 I, LORI A. BELVIN, a Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby 5 certify pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil 6 Procedure and/or agreement of the parties present to 7 the following: 8 That this deposition transcript is a true record 9 of the proceedings held and the testimony given by 10 RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D., the witness named herein, 11 on March 1, 1993, after said witness was duly sworn 12 by me. 13 CERTIFIED TO BY me in Houston, Harris County, 14 Texas, on this, the ______ day of ____________, 15 A.D., 1993. 16 17 18 __________________________________ LORI A. BELVIN 19 Certified Shorthand Reporter Notary Public, The State of Texas 20 Cert. No.: 2572 Exp.: 12/31/93 21 LOONEY & COMPANY 8 Greenway Plaza, Suite 920 22 Houston, Texas 77046 (713) 621-8572 23 24 25 Job 1SUGA.FLOR00/0385 PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 77 1 STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS 2 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF) 3 FLORIDA, INC., ROTH FARMS, INC., ) and WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 4 ) and ) 5 ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., ) 6 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) 7 ) and ) 8 ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) 9 ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and) 10 HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) ) 11 Petitioners, ) ) 12 v. ) ) 13 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, ) 14 ) Respondent, ) 15 ) and ) 16 ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) 17 FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF ) AMERICA, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT ) 18 OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) 19 ) Intervenors. ) 20 21 --------------------------------------------------- REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE/FILING CERTIFICATE 22 DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. LACEWELL, Ph.D. VOLUME I 23 TAKEN ON MARCH 1, 1993 --------------------------------------------------- 24 25 I, Lori A. Belvin, a Certified Shorthand PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125 78 1 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby 2 certify pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil 3 Procedure and/or agreement of the parties present to 4 the following: 5 That the deposition transcript is a 6 true record of the testimony given by RONALD D. 7 LACEWELL, Ph.D., the witness named herein, on 8 March 1, 1993, after said witness was duly 9 sworn/affirmed by me. 10 That $______________ is the charge for 11 the preparation of the completed deposition 12 transcript, and any copies of exhibits charged 13 to MS. DONNA H. STINSON, Attorney for the 14 Petitioners; 15 That the original signature page and 16 correction sheet were sent to MR. KEITH E. SAXE, 17 along with their ordered copy of the deposition 18 transcript, for examination and signature by the 19 witness and return to Looney & Company by 20 ____________________, 19__. 21 That the original transcript 22 ______ was/ ______ was not returned to the 23 deposition officer by the witness. 24 That the original deposition transcript, 25 or a copy thereof, together with copies of all PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING OF FLORIDA, INC. 800-521-9125