233 1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA 2 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE ) 3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and ) WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 4 Petitioners, ) vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038 5 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) 6 of Florida; et al., ) Respondents. ) 7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., ) 8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) 9 Petitioners, ) vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039 10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) 11 of Florida; et al., ) Respondents. ) 12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) 13 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) 14 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) Petitioners, ) 15 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) 16 DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) of Florida; et al., ) 17 Respondents. ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x 18 100 Southeast 2nd Street Miami, Florida 19 February 8, 1994 9:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. 20 DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. JONES 21 VOLUME III - A.M. SESSION 22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered 23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for 24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of 25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause. 234 1 APPEARANCES 2 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC. AND 3 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC. 4 HOPPING BOYD GREEN & SAMS 123 South Calhoun Street 5 Tallahassee, Florida 32314 BY: GARY P. SAMS, ESQ. 6 7 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and 8 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC. 9 EARL BLANK KAVANAUGH & STOTTS, P.A. One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636 10 Two South Biscayne Boulevard Miami, Florida 33131 11 BY: ROBERT H. BLANK, ESQ. WILLIAM L. HYDE, ESQ. 12 13 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT 14 STANLEY J. NIEGO, ESQ. 15 South Florida Water Management District 3301 Gun Club Road 16 West Palm Beach, Florida 33406 17 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR 18 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 19 SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, ESQ. Assistant United States Attorney 20 99 Northeast 4th Street Third Floor 21 Miami, Florida 33132 22 PRESENT: JOHN A. DAVIS 23 TRUMAN E. DUNCAN B.J. PRESLEY 24 CURTIS J. RICHARDSON 25 235 1 INDEX 2 Witness Direct 3 RONALD DEAN JONES 4 By Mr. Hyde: 236 5 EXHIBITS 6 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 7 56 Bates No. 1169750 258 57 Map dated 7/7/93 340 8 58 Bates No. 1170829 463 59 Bates No. 1168686 463 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 236 1 RONALD D. JONES, resumed. 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 3 BY MR. HYDE: 4 Q. Dr. Jones, I would just like to remind you 5 that you are still under oath from yesterday. 6 When we broke company yesterday, we were 7 talking about the opinions expressed in your 8 Supplemental Summary of Testimony/Opinions which I 9 believe is Jones Exhibit No. 55. I would like to 10 return to that now. 11 In the third bullet point on the first 12 page of that document you indicate that your opinion 13 is founded on several items, the first being the 14 transect south of the S-12C structure. 15 In the prior sentence, however, you opine 16 that this impact is reflected in the decreasing total 17 phosphorus gradient in soils south of the S-12 water 18 delivery structures, in other words, in that sentence 19 you refer to the plural whereas in the following 20 sentence you speak only of a transect south of the 21 12C structure. 22 Is there any incompatibility there? Can 23 you rationalize those two references, one to the 24 plural and one to the singular? 25 MS. PONZOLI: I would ask you to remember, 237 1 Mr. Hyde, Dr. Jones didn't draft this and hadn't seen 2 it. He made some editorial changes to it. You would 3 probably do better to ask Dr. Jones his opinion and 4 what they are based on but if you prefer to go about 5 it this way, you are certainly free to, but I would 6 like the record to reflect you would do better to ask 7 him his opinions than picking through wording that 8 someone else did. 9 Q. Is there some difference there, Dr. Jones? 10 A. The S-12 structures in the sentence 11 preceding the structure where it specifically says 12 S-12C, I would probably, given the fact that in the 13 prior sentence it says at least six kilometers into 14 the Park, I would utilize, I would put an S-12C in 15 front of that. 16 Q. Okay. You then go on to state in the 17 final sentence of that bullet point the other 18 factors, the second being field observation, third 19 being overflights of the area, fourth being 20 statistical analysis of the data. What statistical 21 analysis are you referring to there? 22 A. A very rudimentary analysis of the total 23 phosphorus levels and the alkaline phosphatase 24 activities from the data collected on the S-12C 25 transect along with some additional statistical 238 1 analysis that was conducted by Bob Doren and myself 2 based on vegetation. 3 Q. Does that statistical analysis find 4 expression in any documents that you provided to us? 5 A. The vegetative portion of it does. 6 Q. Where would that be found? 7 A. It would be in a paper or a draft of a 8 paper by, I don't know for sure what the authors are, 9 but it would be a Doren, Jones, Armentano, perhaps, 10 publication. 11 Q. Would it help you to refer you to your CV. 12 A. It would not. It is in my documents, it 13 is not in my CV. It is in preparation. 14 Q. It is a document in preparation, okay. Is 15 it identified as such in your documents as a document 16 in preparation? 17 A. I believe so. It would probably have the 18 word draft. 19 Q. Does it have a working item? 20 A. I do not know. I assume it does but I 21 don't refer to it as that. 22 Q. Do you recall whether the draft has a date 23 associated with it? 24 A. There are several drafts, all of which 25 have been produced. 239 1 Q. Do you recall anything about the title or 2 the working thesis of that document that would help 3 me identify what it is? 4 A. It has to do with vegetative changes along 5 transects in the EPA. 6 Q. So those transects include areas other 7 than just the Park? 8 A. That's correct. 9 (Robert Blank, John Davis and Curtis 10 Richardson entered the room) 11 Q. I believe you just said one of the other 12 authors was Doren. Was there a third person? 13 A. I believe Dr. Tom Armentano is on this. 14 He may not be on this particular draft. 15 Q. The next category under the factors that 16 support this opinion is knowledge of water flow 17 patterns. Dr. Jones, what do you mean by your 18 knowledge of water flow patterns there? 19 A. Just a general understanding of the 20 direction of water flow in the particular areas 21 associated with the S-12 structures, the culverts and 22 the northern portion of Everglades National Park. 23 Q. What does that general knowledge of water 24 flow patterns in that Park reflect? 25 A. That the water flows through the 240 1 structures and generally heads in a southerly 2 direction. 3 Q. Is that the extent of it? 4 A. There are some more subtleties but you 5 would have to ask me some more specific questions. 6 Q. Are the water flow patterns in that area 7 affected by man-made improvements to the system such 8 as canals or structures in the area? 9 A. Man-made structures, improvements is your 10 word, not mine. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Obviously, yes, they are. 13 Q. How is that done? 14 A. Water is allowed to enter into Everglades 15 National Park, as I described to you yesterday, 16 through a series of S-12 structures. It also flows 17 laterally along the old Tamiami Canal and then enters 18 through a series of culverts along the northern 19 boundary. 20 Q. Are the subtleties as you referred to a 21 few moments ago connected with those man-made 22 structures? 23 A. Some of them. 24 Q. Could you enumerate for me what they are? 25 MS. PONZOLI: I am sorry, I don't 241 1 understand the question. 2 MR. HYDE: He said there are some 3 subtleties associated with those structures and I am 4 asking him to tell me what they are. 5 MS. PONZOLI: I am not sure that was his 6 answer. 7 But, Dr. Jones, do you understand? 8 MR. HYDE: It that -- 9 MS. PONZOLI: I thought you said there 10 were subtleties with the water flows, not with the 11 structures. 12 MR. HYDE: We can read it back but -- 13 MS. PONZOLI: Why don't you read it back. 14 I think that would be helpful. 15 I would also like the record to reflect 16 the gentlemen who have entered the room. 17 (The portion referred to was 18 thereupon read by the reporter 19 as above recorded) 20 MR. HYDE: I think there was another 21 question related to subtleties. Let me say we are 22 wasting time. 23 BY MR. HYDE: 24 Q. Dr. Jones, are these, quote, subtleties 25 connected with the man-made structures in the Park? 242 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What are they? 3 A. Because of the nature of certain of the 4 structures they are associated with downstream 5 conditions, if you will, and the geology of the area, 6 water exiting the S-12 structures, whether it be D, 7 C, B or A, all has sort of a specific flow pattern 8 that is associated with it. 9 Q. Is that specific flow pattern common to 10 all four of the structures or is it differentiating 11 between them or are they all different? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 13 A. They all have some difference. 14 Q. Let's start with structure A. What 15 subtlety do you detect with the flow pattern from 16 that structure? 17 A. Structure S-12A is in a region of the Park 18 that is slightly higher in elevation. The water 19 tends to move from that structure in a more 20 easterly-southeasterly direction. 21 Q. Is that the extent of that difference 22 associated with S-12A? 23 A. That's the major difference. 24 Q. How does that fact itself affect the 25 impacts that the Park is receiving as a result of 243 1 excess phosphorus by your lights? 2 MS. PONZOLI: You mean the subtlety of the 3 flow pattern? 4 MR. HYDE: Yes. 5 MS. PONZOLI: I think you are assuming 6 something that is not necessarily in evidence. I 7 object to the form of the question. 8 You have assumed that the flow patterns 9 affects the changes that you see. 10 MR. HYDE: He said that it did. It says 11 it right here, Suzan, I don't know how you can 12 belabor the obvious. But I would like Dr. Jones to 13 testify and not you. 14 MS. PONZOLI: I am not testifying. 15 BY MR. HYDE: 16 Q. Dr. Jones, how do the matters that you 17 just described concerning S-12A, that is its higher 18 elevation, affect the flow patterns associated with 19 the structure and as the next step, how it affects 20 the adverse impacts resulting from phosphorus? 21 MS. PONZOLI: Please ask him one question 22 at time, Mr. Hyde. Separate them out, ask him one, 23 he will answer that one, then ask the next one, he 24 will answer that. 25 Do you want him to answer the first one 244 1 first? 2 Q. Dr. Jones, how does that increased 3 elevation at S-12A affect flow patterns in the Park? 4 A. I just answered that. 5 Q. How does that fact impact upon these 6 alleged adverse phosphorus impacts in the Park? 7 A. At structure S-12A I haven't done an in 8 depth study as to what the affects of phosphorus 9 impacts are. 10 Q. So you don't know what they are? 11 A. I have only made observations from, from 12 the overflights for that particular area and a 13 limited number of ground observations and maybe 14 several, two, three measurements of phosphorus. 15 Q. What does this limited analysis tell you? 16 A. That there is some damage south of the 17 S-12A structure. 18 Q. How is that associated with the flow 19 patterns that emanate from that structure? 20 A. I have no knowledge of that. 21 Q. Did you make any measurements of 22 phosphorus in the soils at S-12A? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where is that data? 25 A. It is in some of the documents that were 245 1 produced yesterday. 2 Q. Can you identify what those documents are? 3 A. It was one of the composite exhibits that 4 came from, you know, one of the ones that you 5 referred to I believe that we would have to come back 6 to. 7 Q. Let's move on now to S-12B. What is 8 characteristic about the flow patterns associated 9 with S-12B? 10 A. S-12B I have not spent -- I spent very, 11 very little time examining that. 12 Q. So you have formed no opinion about the 13 flow patterns associated with that structure? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Let's move on now to S-12C. What is 16 unique or what is characteristic about that 17 particular structure? 18 A. S-12C is one of the structures which has 19 had a lot of water delivered through it. It is in an 20 area that is lower elevation than A or B. It is 21 water that tends to head, probably of all of the 22 structures, at least to my knowledge and 23 understanding of this particular area, that water 24 from that particular structure tends to head 25 generally in a southerly direction, maybe slightly to 246 1 the east. 2 Q. I believe you just stated that a lot of 3 water is delivered through the S-12C structure. Are 4 you referring to some specific measurements or is 5 that a seat of the pants type of hunch? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think 7 the pejorative on the measurement is not necessary. 8 Q. Dr. Jones, how do you know that there is a 9 lot of water that goes through the S-12C structure? 10 A. Looking at the water deliveries to the 11 Everglades National Park. 12 Q. Who keeps those records? 13 A. I believe the USGS is actually responsible 14 for validating those numbers. I have seen them in 15 the Park's records and in South Florida Water 16 Management District records. 17 Q. You also stated that you felt that the 18 S-12C structure had a lower elevation. How do you 19 know that? 20 A. Not the S-12C structure, the Park, the 21 surface of the rock, if you will, is lower in that 22 particular area. 23 Q. So the lands that are south of the S-12C 24 structure is what you are referring to? 25 A. Immediately south of the S-12C structure. 247 1 Q. How do you know that they have a lower 2 elevation? 3 A. Once again, from reviewing documents at 4 Everglades National Park and discussions with Bob 5 Johnson. 6 Q. What documents are you referring to at the 7 Park? 8 A. I really can't be specific on that. There 9 are a number of reports that are out and I don't 10 remember which one in particular that I reviewed. 11 Q. Have you seen any topographic maps of that 12 area? 13 A. I am sure I have. 14 Q. Do you recall which ones or where you saw 15 them? 16 A. I am sorry, no. 17 Q. Have you seen any surveys of that area? 18 A. Geodetic surveys or what? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. I am not sure if I have seen anything for 21 that particular area. 22 Q. What did Mr. Johnson tell you in this 23 regard, just generically that there was a lower 24 elevation there? 25 A. We had a number of discussions over the 248 1 years and I would be, it would be very impossible for 2 me to tell you specifically what he told me on any 3 one occasion. Anything more in general; I think I 4 have gone as much as I can in the generality. 5 Q. Did he provide you with any documentation 6 to this end? 7 A. I already had the documentation for the 8 most part and he just referred me to specific things 9 which I had already read, and I am also familiar with 10 the publications of Mr. Johnson. 11 Q. Does the amount of water, is the amount of 12 water flowing through the S-12C gate dependent on 13 elevation or upon whether the gates are open or 14 closed? 15 A. Both. 16 Q. I believe you also stated that the water 17 in the area of the S-12C structure flowed in a 18 generally southerly direction and maybe a little bit 19 to the east. How do you know that? 20 A. Again, discussions with other Everglades 21 researchers, my own personal observations from being 22 in the field. 23 Q. Who are these other researchers? 24 A. Bob Johnson, Dan Scheidt, Bill Loftus, a 25 number of other people from Everglades National Park. 249 1 But predominantly those three individuals. 2 Q. You also stated that you had some personal 3 observations that supported that conclusion as well? 4 A. I have spent a considerable amount of time 5 in the field in that particular area. I have 6 observed water flows. 7 Q. How do you know it is heading in a 8 southerly direction maybe a little bit to the east, 9 then? 10 A. In my flight suit I always have a little 11 compass. I tend to know which direction is south and 12 which direction is east out there. 13 Q. To my knowledge that water in that area 14 can flow very slowly, can it not? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that would be particularly slow if you 17 were away from the structures, correct? 18 A. Your definition of slow and my definition 19 of slow may not be the same. 20 Q. How can you be certain just from visual 21 observation that the flow that you are seeing is in a 22 truly southerly direction as opposed to east or 23 southeast or southwest? 24 A. Since southerly is a fairly broad term, I 25 don't know the exact nautical definition of southerly 250 1 but it is several points off of true south in either 2 direction. So I am not saying that it was flowing 3 due south. 4 Q. You also indicate here that your AP 5 analysis is another factor that comes into play. 6 What is that? 7 A. Alkaline phosphatase analysis. 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I am sorry, you asked me what AP was. 10 Q. Let me just back up for a second. 11 Are your observations about the direction 12 of water flow in the Park recorded in any of your 13 field notes? 14 A. No. 15 Q. The next factor listed here in support of 16 your analysis in this regard is your AP analysis. 17 What is that? 18 A. Measurement of alkaline phosphatase in the 19 water column along this S-12C transect in this case. 20 Q. Let me ask you some general questions 21 about alkaline phosphatase. I will refer to it as AP 22 from now on. 23 What is the role of AP in an ecosystem 24 such as the Everglades? 25 MS. PONZOLI: Do you understand the 251 1 question, Dr. Jones? I am not sure I understand it, 2 but if you do, that is fine. 3 A. It is an overly broad question from the 4 standpoint that alkaline phosphatase is a microbial 5 level in the way I am examining it. So to go to its 6 role in the Everglades ecosystem is a leap that I 7 wouldn't make. 8 Q. What kind of organisms have alkaline 9 phosphatase enzymes? 10 A. All organisms have alkaline phosphatase. 11 Q. What is the difference between an alkaline 12 phosphatase and an acid phosphatase? 13 A. The pH at which they function optimally. 14 Q. What is the differentiation between the 15 two? 16 A. Alkaline phosphatase functions in an 17 alkaline environment, acid phosphatase functions in 18 an acidic environment. 19 Q. Is there a breaking point as measured in 20 terms of pH, say, at 7 or something like that that 21 would indicate one is one category and not the other? 22 A. It depends on which organism particular 23 code of the gene for the alkaline phosphatase that is 24 present. And it is a broad range that the 25 phosphatase functions in. It happens simply to be 252 1 defined more as acidic conditions or alkaline 2 conditions, especially in the extracellular AP. 3 Q. What sorts of things or factors inhibit AP 4 activity? 5 A. Where? 6 Q. Generally. 7 A. Alkaline phosphatase, it is one, if you 8 were to go to the hospital with a liver problem, one 9 of the things that they would measure or even if you 10 go to your doctor's office and have a series of blood 11 tests, one of the things they are going to measure is 12 alkaline phosphatase activity in your serum. 13 So when you say something like alkaline 14 phosphatase, this is what I was getting at, it is 15 overly broad. I am not dealing with it as an 16 ecosystem, just dealing with it as an enzyme. We all 17 have it, everybody has it, and the factors that 18 affect it in your body are not the same. 19 Q. Let's be more specific then. What sorts 20 of things inhibit alkaline phosphatase activity in 21 the Everglades? 22 A. Alkaline phosphatase activity in plant 23 tissues or extracellular from bacteria? In the 24 manner I use alkaline phosphatase? What? You have 25 to define it. 253 1 Q. Let's say first in the manner in which you 2 use alkaline phosphatase. 3 A. Okay. The major controlling factor for 4 alkaline phosphatase activity in the way that I use 5 it would be the availability of phosphorus in the 6 environment. 7 Q. So do you use alkaline phosphatase as a 8 way to monitor phosphorus enrichment? 9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 10 A. I would say no. 11 Q. Then what is its relationship to 12 phosphorus? 13 A. It is a way of measuring phosphorus 14 availability in the system. 15 Q. What happens if there is more phosphorus 16 available in the system in terms of alkaline 17 phosphatase activity? 18 A. You have a decrease. 19 Q. And if there is less phosphorus available? 20 A. You have an increase. 21 Q. So if you have a decreased AP activity 22 then you would conclude that there is more phosphorus 23 in the system? 24 A. That there is more available phosphorus in 25 the system. 254 1 Q. So AP is a way to monitor phosphorus 2 enrichment then, isn't it? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 4 question. I think you asked him that and he answered 5 it. 6 A. I had a problem with perhaps a differing 7 in the use of enrichment because I can think of forms 8 of phosphorus that you could enrich an environment 9 with that would not result in a change in alkaline 10 phosphatase activity. 11 Q. What kinds of phosphorus are we confronted 12 with in the Everglades that do result in this 13 decrease in AP activity? 14 A. The forms of phosphorus in the forms of 15 phosphate or orthophosphate, commonly referred to as 16 soluble reactive phosphate would be one form. 17 A number of organic forms of phosphorus 18 which we routinely lump together in the term, 19 quote-unquote, total phosphorus or total dissolved 20 phosphorus. 21 Q. Do you find alkaline phosphatase activity 22 in Everglades soils? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Would you find that activity there even if 25 there were no living organisms present? 255 1 A. No. 2 Q. Why? 3 A. Alkaline phosphatase is a biologically 4 produced fairly highly genetically, or it is 5 controlled very heavily in its production and it does 6 not have a very long half life in an environment. It 7 is produced by living organisms. 8 Q. I believe you stated yesterday that the 9 Everglades generally is phosphorus limited, is that 10 correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. If that is correct, then why are 13 blue-green algae so common? 14 A. Blue-green algae are a very diverse group 15 of microorganisms. They are found in a number of 16 both polluted and oligotrophic environments. 17 Q. Are you able to differentiate between 18 historic levels of phosphatase activity in Everglades 19 soils versus current levels of alkaline phosphatase 20 activity? 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 22 A. In soils? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. I do not do much alkaline phosphatase in 25 soils. 256 1 Q. What do you do it in, then? 2 A. Generally in the water column. 3 Q. Is there any connection between the number 4 of bacteria or other microbes in a sample and the 5 measured enzyme activity that you detect in that 6 sample? 7 A. Referring to alkaline phosphatase? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Not necessarily. 10 Q. Would you expect to find a higher biomass 11 if the phosphorus were more available to the 12 microbes? 13 A. Biomass of microbes? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I would expect that would be the case if 16 phosphorus was limiting their production. 17 Q. Was that what you find? 18 A. I haven't examined that in the Everglades 19 ecosystem. 20 Q. What level of AP activity do you consider 21 normal for the soils of the, first of all, the Park? 22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 23 A. Soils? 24 Q. Strike that. 25 For the water in the Park. 257 1 A. I would have to go back and look at the 2 numbers that we have generated. It is a relative 3 type of a terminology and so I would have to look at 4 some of the graphs that were produced yesterday to 5 give you an idea of that. 6 Q. Did you not look at AP activity in the 7 soils at all in the Park? 8 A. Yes, we have looked at it in the Park. 9 Q. Where is the data that reflects those 10 measurements? 11 A. Somewhere in one of the files. It would 12 have been in the folder from Richany and Jones and 13 Amador of which you presented a very small portion to 14 me yesterday in the production. 15 Q. What is your method for measuring AP 16 activity in water as opposed to soils? 17 A. I believe it is based off of -- you are 18 asking me to do this without a reference paper in 19 front of me. I believe it is a Perry 1974 method 20 using, as I pointed out yesterday, 21 3-orthomethylfluoroscene, phosphate and fluorometric 22 detection. 23 Q. What is the detection limit in that test? 24 A. Offhand, I can't tell you. 25 Q. Do you recall what the holding time was of 258 1 your samples? 2 A. They are analyzed generally within -- they 3 are analyzed within an hour of return to the 4 laboratory and that can depend on whether we are 5 sampling, you know, say, starting 9 in the morning 6 and maybe returning at 2 or 3 in the afternoon so 7 that the holding time would be that period of time. 8 They are analyzed the same day. 9 Q. I would like to show you a document we 10 will label as Exhibit No. 56. 11 MS. PONZOLI: Have we already seen this 12 one, Mr. Hyde? 13 MR. HYDE: I think you probably have. 14 MS. PONZOLI: Do you have copies for us? 15 MR. HYDE: No, I just pulled it out. It 16 is Bates No. 1169750. It has some handwritten notes 17 on them. I don't even know if they are his notes. 18 Take a look at it. 19 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 56 was marked 20 for identification) 21 MS. PONZOLI: I believe these are Dr. 22 Richardson's handwritten notes on the document. Is 23 that accurate, Mr. Hyde? 24 MR. HYDE: I believe so. 25 BY MR. HYDE: 259 1 Q. Dr. Jones, is this one of your documents? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. Was this a document you were referring to 4 earlier as being some evidence of AP activity in the 5 Park? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Is this measuring AP activity in the soils 8 or in the water column? 9 A. In the water column. 10 Q. What does this graph indicate to you? 11 A. It indicates that there is an increasing 12 alkaline phosphatase activity as you proceed in a 13 southerly direction from S-12C. 14 Q. What is the significance of that 15 conclusion? 16 A. It would indicate that the communities are 17 less phosphorus limited, perhaps not phosphorus 18 limited, the microbial communities, near the S-12C 19 structure, and that as you proceed down to a distance 20 of approximately 12 kilometers that the communities 21 are more phosphorus limited, the microbial 22 communities are more phosphorus limited. 23 Q. You said this was in the water column? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know what kind of soil conditions 260 1 it was associated with? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What was that? 4 A. Depending upon where you are in the 5 transect they vary from organic peat, sawgrass peat 6 soils to marl soils. 7 Q. How do the soils affect the alkaline 8 phosphatase activity, if at all? 9 A. In the water column it didn't seem to have 10 much effect. 11 Q. How would it affect it in the soils, if 12 you know? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Is AP production by microbes, for lack of 15 a better term, an ephemeral process? Do you know 16 what I mean when I say ephemeral process? 17 MS. PONZOLI: Could you read the question 18 back to me, please. 19 (The question referred to was 20 thereupon read by the reporter 21 as above recorded) 22 MS. PONZOLI: I certainly don't. 23 MR. HYDE: I am asking Dr. Jones, not you. 24 MS. PONZOLI: I understand that, but I am 25 going to object to the question since I don't 261 1 understand. 2 A. I would prefer you use a different word 3 than ephemeral, if you could, because I don't use 4 that in the context of microbiology or science. It 5 is more of a term in a novel. 6 Q. Can alkaline phosphatase activity be 7 depressed in a very short period of time? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Does temperature have any effect on the 10 alkaline phosphatase activity? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How does it have an effect on it? 13 A. The general effect would be that if you 14 incubate the samples at a lower temperature alkaline 15 phosphatase activity would be somewhat depressed 16 depending upon the characteristics of the particular 17 enzyme, at a higher temperature it would be faster. 18 Q. Do you know at what soil phosphorus level 19 we see a change in AP activity? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What about in the water column, at what 22 water phosphorus level do you see a change in AP 23 activity? 24 A. I have the data necessary to make that 25 determination but I have not graphically produced 262 1 that and run any statistics on it at this time. 2 Q. So you just have the raw data, then? 3 A. I have, yes, the raw data. 4 Q. Have you done anything beyond just having 5 the data available to you to derive any meaning from 6 it? 7 A. I looked at it generally, decided it would 8 make an interesting paper and then tried to continue 9 that, and that is, was the reason for those, the 10 series of grid sampling that we did within Everglades 11 National Park and the Water Conservation Area. 12 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Hyde, I sort have been 13 waiting, I didn't want to interrupt your flow of 14 questions but you look like you are getting ready to 15 go on to something new. I want to be clear about 16 Jones No. 56. 17 If you wish to use something like that at 18 trial I am going to ask you to go back to the one 19 that is Dr. Jones' that does not have Dr. 20 Richardson's information written all over it because 21 this is really not Dr. Jones' document any longer, it 22 is sort of a hybrid of our two experts. 23 And so I would move to strike it or to 24 exclude it. So if you need that exhibit for trial 25 for your questions let's locate it right now and 263 1 attach it as 56 A or something. 2 MR. HYDE: Suzan, this is a deposition, 3 this is a deposition exhibit. That's all it is 4 intended for. 5 I don't need to be instructed about how to 6 use exhibits at trial. I think if I wanted to use it 7 with Dr. Richardson's writing on it I could do that 8 too. 9 MS. PONZOLI: I am not waiving my 10 objections to exclude it at that time and I don't 11 want to sandbag you in that way so I made it very 12 clear at this time I object to you using something 13 that is no longer Dr. Jones'. 14 MR. HYDE: Fine, your objection is noted. 15 MS. PONZOLI: So I just move to strike it 16 here, and include the one that really is his, which 17 is already in the record somewhere. 18 BY MR. HYDE: 19 Q. Dr. Jones, when you are looking at AP 20 values in an area can you find totally different AP 21 values from one day to the next? 22 A. I have not observed that in these 23 particular locations. 24 There are some other areas where we look 25 at AP such as Florida Bay, areas that have tidal 264 1 influence where there are drastic changes in the 2 water column and there the answer would be yes. 3 Q. Didn't you agree with my question earlier 4 that AP activity can be depressed within a matter of 5 hours? 6 A. I don't believe you said matter of hours 7 but you said very rapidly or something like that. 8 But I agreed with that, yes. 9 Q. Would you agree that it could be depressed 10 in a matter of hours? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Then wouldn't you agree that you could get 13 decidedly different AP values from one day to the 14 next? 15 A. No, I wouldn't. I mean, what you could do 16 in a pure culture in a laboratory is a lot different 17 than what happens in the field. 18 Q. Would rainfall cause any change in AP 19 activity? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. What about when it is a hot day? 22 A. It shouldn't. 23 Q. Are there any compounds present in the 24 water of the Everglades National Park that would 25 inhibit AP activity? 265 1 A. AP activity is measured in the waters of 2 Everglades National Park. If I were to take and 3 extract the enzyme alkaline phosphatase and place it 4 under ideal laboratory conditions, then there may 5 very well likely be parameters in the water that 6 affect the activity of AP. 7 You are asking questions about AP and I am 8 showing you data about alkaline phosphatase activity. 9 Q. I understand that. My question was simply 10 whether there are any compounds present in the water 11 in the Everglades National Park that would inhibit AP 12 activity. 13 A. Meaning that if I were to go to Sigma 14 Science and buy a bottle of alkaline phosphatase from 15 bovine liver extract, that if I were to place it into 16 Everglades National Park water would that be 17 inhibited by certain compounds? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. There is a possibility. 20 Q. Do you know what I mean when I ask whether 21 AP activity is subject to inhibition? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What does that mean? 24 A. Depending on what type of inhibition you 25 are referring to, whether it be competitive 266 1 inhibition or suicidal inhibition or a number of 2 things like that, it generally means it inhibits its 3 activity. 4 Q. Do heavy metals have any effect on AP 5 activity? 6 A. Certain heavy metals can inhibit alkaline 7 phosphatase activity. 8 Q. Which ones? 9 A. Mercury at a certain percentage level will 10 do it, zinc in very high levels, cadmium I know for 11 sure. I don't know of any other heavy metals, those 12 are just ones that have been used in laboratory 13 analysis. 14 Q. Going back to phosphorus concentration in 15 the water column again, have you made any 16 determinations as to what the phosphorus 17 concentration should be in order to see a change in 18 AP activity? 19 A. I believe I indicated that I have a series 20 of data, I know I saw it yesterday, and that I 21 haven't gone through and analyzed that yet. 22 Q. Is AP activity turned on when periphyton 23 need phosphorus? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't 25 understand your question. 267 1 Do you understand it, Dr. Jones? 2 A. I understand periphyton, but I can't 3 answer that question because of the fact that 4 periphyton is a nondescript term. 5 Q. Why do you say it is nondescript? 6 A. It is a community of a number of different 7 organisms and if you want to be very precise you have 8 to tell me which particular components of the 9 periphyton. I am assuming community is what you are 10 referring to when you say periphyton. 11 Q. Phytoplankton. 12 A. Phytoplankton, alkaline phosphatase 13 activity, there is a debate as to whether 14 phytoplankton have the ability to produce 15 extracellular alkaline phosphatase. The evidence 16 would indicate they can not. 17 Q. Are there other types of periphyton that 18 can engage in this activity? 19 A. Cyanobacteria perhaps, fungi which may be 20 associated with the periphyton and certainly the 21 bacteria. 22 Q. Let's assume that people or researchers 23 have found high AP activity in water bodies receiving 24 high phosphorus concentrations. What does this mean 25 to you? 268 1 A. It would mean nothing to me until I saw 2 the papers. 3 Q. Does it mean perhaps that other local 4 conditions might be coming into play? 5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. He 6 answered it. It means nothing to him so he can't 7 speculate beyond that. He has to see the papers. 8 MR. HYDE: I am asking if other local 9 conditions might come into play in influencing that 10 activity. 11 MS. PONZOLI: But he has already said he 12 can't answer without seeing your original premise and 13 he doesn't accept your original premise until he sees 14 the papers. 15 Q. Assume my original premise to be true. Do 16 local -- 17 MS. PONZOLI: I don't think he has to 18 assume a fact that he has no knowledge of or 19 understanding of. I don't really think that's what 20 he has to do in this deposition, Mr. Hyde. 21 MR. HYDE: Suzan, I am asking a 22 hypothetical question. It is perfectly admissible. 23 MS. PONZOLI: I don't think your 24 hypothetical question is framed properly, Mr. Hyde. 25 MR. HYDE: Are you instructing him not to 269 1 answer? 2 MS. PONZOLI: Is that a situation that you 3 have any knowledge of, Dr. Jones? 4 THE WITNESS: I have seen papers that have 5 purported that, and under those circumstances the 6 papers have not been talking about alkaline 7 phosphatase in the context that we are speaking of 8 alkaline phosphatase. 9 BY MR. HYDE: 10 Q. In what context are they referring to it? 11 A. They are generally referring to whole cell 12 alkaline phosphatase activity. 13 Q. How does that differ from the current 14 context that we are discussing? 15 A. It would be in the same context that if I 16 were to determine your alkaline phosphatase level I 17 would have to grind up your cells and so therefore 18 how you would respond to excess phosphorus is 19 different than the way bacteria's extracellular 20 alkaline phosphatase responds. 21 MR. GAINES: Why don't we take a five 22 minute break. 23 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 24 after which the following proceedings 25 were had) 270 1 MR. HYDE: Back on the record. 2 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Hyde, would you let the 3 record reflect what we have agreed to? 4 MR. HYDE: We have inserted into the 5 record as substitute Exhibit 56 for Jones, it is 6 simply a clean copy of Bates number 1169750. 7 MS. PONZOLI: Thank you. 8 BY MR. HYDE: 9 Q. Dr. Jones, would you agree that an 10 increase in AP activity is really an indicator of 11 phosphorus deficiency in the system? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Why not? 14 A. Because of the terminology deficiency, 15 what you mean by that. You have to define 16 deficiency. 17 Q. A lack of. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you think that AP values would be 20 significantly different depending on the season? 21 A. There are some seasonal trends in alkaline 22 phosphatase. 23 Q. How would they differ, say, from summer to 24 winter, for example? 25 A. It depends on where you are. 271 1 Q. So location does play a role in what the 2 activity, AP activity is? 3 A. Sure. In northern Canada it is probably 4 pretty low in the winter. 5 Q. Let's confine our comments for now to the 6 Everglades. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. What differences do you see in the 9 Everglades between, say, winter and summer in terms 10 of the AP activity? 11 A. We haven't looked at this particular data 12 set with seasonality. We have other data sets for 13 Florida Bay that we have looked at with seasonality. 14 Q. What does your Florida Bay data reveal to 15 you? 16 A. There is a very minor change between 17 summer and winter. 18 Q. Is there more in the summer or less in the 19 summer? 20 A. It tends to be slightly elevated in the 21 summer. 22 Q. Would you expect that to be true for the 23 Everglades National Park? 24 A. This is alkaline phosphatase in the water? 25 Q. Yes. 272 1 A. The primary controlling factor there would 2 be whether there is water in the winter. 3 Q. Assuming water were present would you 4 expect the AP activity to be greater or lesser as 5 compared to the summer? 6 A. My recollection from the numbers that we 7 have, alkaline phosphatase over a number of seasons, 8 I don't believe that we would find a significant 9 difference because of the size of the data set. 10 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions 11 about your sampling methodology for your AP 12 measurements. 13 A. Certainly. 14 Q. I would like to take you from the field to 15 the laboratory. First of all, tell me how you take 16 the samples in the field. 17 A. The samples are collected by hand in the 18 field. We take a 125 milliliter polyethylene bottle 19 used specifically for the microbiological parameters 20 and the total phosphorus and the total nitrogen, 21 those types of parameters, and collect a bottle by 22 first opening the bottle underneath the water column, 23 rinsing it several times with sample and then moving 24 slowly through the marsh collecting a water sample 25 just below the surface, trying to avoid incorporating 273 1 fish or chunks of periphyton into the sample. 2 Q. Once you have obtained the water sample 3 that you wish to have, what do you do then? 4 A. First off, we obtain generally a minimum 5 of duplicate and generally triplicate of samples, 6 they are then placed in an ice chest cooler at 7 ambient temperature, meaning they are not placed on 8 ice or anything which would alter the microbial 9 activity, and transport it to the laboratory. 10 Q. Do you measure the temperature of the 11 sample in the field? 12 A. The temperature is recorded, the 13 temperature of the water. 14 Q. What happens when you take it back to the 15 laboratory? 16 A. A portion of that sample is distributed 17 into a number of cuvettes which are a device placed 18 under a sampling, a container placed into the 19 spectrofluorometer. The 3-orthomethylfluoroscene 20 along with a buffer called TRIS is added. Samples 21 are incubated generally at 25 degrees centigrade for 22 a period of two hours and then the alkaline 23 phosphatase activity is measured and recorded. 24 Q. Do you measure the temperature of the 25 sample when you get back to the laboratory? 274 1 A. No, we do not. 2 Q. Why do you incubate it at 25 degrees? 3 A. To eliminate any kind of variation 4 introduced by temperature. It is a fairly standard 5 assay technique. 6 Q. How many data sets did you take from the 7 Park regarding this AP activity? 8 A. I don't know for sure. I think somewhere 9 between three and five, in that range. 10 Q. You mean three to five samples? 11 A. No, three to five sampling periods. 12 Q. Of how many sampling stations? 13 A. That would depend upon how much water was 14 in the system at the time. 15 Q. Going back to your lab work, once you have 16 incubated the samples at 25 degrees what do you do 17 then? 18 A. I put them in the fluorometer and measure 19 the orthomethylfluoroscene that has been released. 20 Q. Once you have done that measurement, is 21 that a visual measurement? 22 A. Oh, no, it is done in a 23 spectrofluorometer. 24 Q. How is that measurement reflected in terms 25 of data or computer information? 275 1 A. We get a printout from the machine which 2 is in relative fluorescence units which we have 3 calibrated based on an orthomethylfluoroscene 4 standard. 5 Q. Are those measurements reflected in any of 6 the documents that you provided to us? 7 A. Yes. We saw some yesterday. 8 Q. Are you familiar with a Dr. Lane or Lean, 9 however he says it, L E A N? 10 A. Dr. Lean, yes. 11 Q. Is Dr. Lean associated with the United 12 States team in this litigation? 13 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 14 Q. What is Dr. Lean's specialty? 15 A. Dr. Lean is a remarkable individual. He 16 has a broad background in, I would just have to say 17 aquatic ecology. He has published in a number of 18 areas. 19 Q. Do you consider him an expert in AP 20 activity or, excuse me, AP analysis and data 21 interpretation? 22 A. He and his wife have certainly done a 23 number of alkaline phosphatase measurements. 24 Q. Have you ever discussed your AP analyses 25 in this case with him? 276 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What does he think of them? 3 A. I think you would be better off asking him 4 what he thinks of them. 5 My impression is that he is favorable. 6 Q. Does he agree with you that AP is a 7 reliable indicator of phosphorus? 8 A. In the Everglades system? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In reference to your phosphatase activity 12 graphs, what are the units of measurement that you 13 are discussing there? 14 A. I answered that yesterday. 15 Q. Could you just refresh my recollection? 16 A. In relative fluorescence units. 17 Q. Can they be expressed in terms of 18 micromolers? 19 A. No, because that would be the 20 inappropriate unit. 21 Q. Why is it inappropriate? 22 A. Micromolers, micromoles is a quantity but 23 you have to talk about an activity, you have to have 24 some expression of time or whatever. 25 Q. Could it be expressed in terms of 277 1 micromoles per liter per hour? 2 A. Micromoles of? It could be. Those are a 3 unit minus a distinguishing character like of 4 phosphorus release per liter per hour, certainly. 5 Q. But you haven't chosen to do that? 6 A. I do with all of the other stuff. This 7 stuff is produced in 1990. 8 Q. So the information you have produced since 9 that time is in that other format? 10 A. You could take this information and 11 multiply it by a number and come up with that. I 12 mean, they are relative fluorescence units, the same 13 calibration has been used throughout. 14 Q. Returning now to Exhibit 55 and the bullet 15 points under the heading, specifically the third 16 bullet point, the final factor in that third bullet 17 point is cattail expansion along the L-67 extension. 18 What are you referring to there? 19 A. The L-67 extended is a canal heading south 20 along the or from the Tamiami Trail into the interior 21 of Shark River Slough. And there are cattails that 22 have invaded in that particular area. 23 Q. How have they invaded, along the canal 24 banks? 25 A. I wouldn't call it a bank. There is a 278 1 bank on one side, a levee on one side that is high 2 enough to drive down and on the other side where the 3 water flows out of the L-67 the cattails have invaded 4 in that particular area. 5 Q. Is the invasion just along the courses or 6 along the course of the canal or is it away from the 7 canal as well? 8 A. It is also in some appreciable distance 9 west from the boundary of the canal. 10 Q. How far? 11 A. I can't answer that. 12 Q. Is it more than just a few feet, say more 13 than 50 feet, for example? 14 A. In some instances, yes. 15 Q. In most instances, no? 16 A. I don't care to guess at what that is. I 17 mean, there is photography available that would show 18 that. 19 Q. Is this information garnered from your own 20 personal observation of the area? 21 A. It is from my own personal observation of 22 the area along with examination of various low level 23 photographs, airplane photography, whatever. 24 Q. Is it based on any vegetative mapping of 25 that area? 279 1 A. No. 2 Q. Moving down now to the fourth point there, 3 which reads, hydroperiod variations can not account 4 for all of the displacement of native species and the 5 damage to the periphyton and macrophyte communities 6 throughout the EPA. 7 I note in the first line that you say that 8 hydroperiod variations can not account for all of the 9 displacement. Does that mean that hydroperiod 10 variations do account for some of the displacement? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you quantify that? 13 A. An example I can give you would be the 14 flooding of hardwood hammock tree islands and the 15 change in vegetation that occurs when you flood out 16 these more upland species. 17 Q. Can hydroperiod variations account for 18 other changes that have occurred in these vegetative 19 communities in the EPA? 20 A. I am sure they can. 21 Q. Do hydroperiod variations assist at all in 22 the establishment of a cattail community? 23 A. They could. 24 MS. PONZOLI: I think that has been asked 25 and answered. 280 1 Q. Let me back up just for a moment to the 2 L-67 canal. 3 Do you recall how close the cattail 4 communities are to the structures? 5 A. Which structures? 6 Q. 12C structures. 7 A. Well, 12C is quite far away, a couple of 8 miles at least. 9 Q. Are the cattail communities that you find 10 in the Park generally closer to the structures and 11 the disturbed areas? 12 A. Closer to the structures? 13 Q. Yes. 14 MS. PONZOLI: And the disturbed areas? 15 A. And the disturbed areas. 16 MS. PONZOLI: It is a multiple question. 17 A. Not necessarily. 18 Q. What would be an example of a not 19 necessarily? 20 A. The end of the L-67 extended. 21 Q. Is that an area of disturbance, though, 22 just from the construction of the canal system there? 23 A. I don't believe it is but I am not certain 24 of that. 25 Q. Let's refer to the following sentence in 281 1 that bullet point here, you say that this is founded 2 on data collections and analysis from ENP and LNWR 3 transects. 4 Are those the same transects that we were 5 discussing yesterday or are they different ones? 6 A. They are the same. 7 Q. The second category is WCA-3A data 8 analysis. I believe that is a new category. What 9 are you referring to there? 10 A. The transect into Water Conservation Area 11 3A, also a number of maybe, just a single document 12 from the South Florida Water Management District 13 discussing the hydrologic impacts in Water 14 Conservation Area 3A. 15 Q. Do you recall who the author of that 16 document is? 17 A. I am sorry, I do not. 18 Q. Do you recall the title of that document? 19 A. I do not. 20 Q. This transect into 3A, is this something 21 that you performed? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where was it performed within that Water 24 Conservation Area? 25 A. North of the S-12C structure. 282 1 Q. What was the purpose of locating that 2 transect there? 3 A. I answered that yesterday. 4 Q. I don't recall that we discussed it in any 5 great detail but if you could just refresh my 6 recollection as to why you located it in that area. 7 A. To examine the potential effects of 8 disturbance by the construction of the Tamiami Trail 9 and associated canals. 10 Q. What did that transect reveal to you? 11 Reveal? 12 A. That there was little or very limited 13 damage due to nutrients north into Water Conservation 14 Area 3A. 15 Q. When you speak of damage, what were you 16 referring to? 17 A. Elevated soil levels, decreased alkaline 18 phosphatase activity and vegetative changes. 19 Q. What kind of vegetative changes? 20 A. In this case both the presence of cattails 21 and other species that tend to do well in high 22 phosphorus and also morphological changes in the 23 sawgrass and the other more common native species. 24 Q. In the course of doing your transects did 25 you see any evidence of any disturbances up there 283 1 such as fire, drought or anything else that might 2 have caused a perturbation in that area? 3 A. During this time that entire area has 4 burnt. There have been frosts, we have had droughts, 5 we have had flooded periods. I think the whole gamut 6 of natural disturbances has occurred in this area. 7 Q. Did you see evidence of burning along your 8 transect? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What kind of burn was it, just a small 11 localized burn or part of a bigger more regionwide 12 area? 13 A. During the drought period we had some very 14 extensive burns throughout the Water Conservation 15 Areas and Everglades National Park. Since then there 16 have been smaller burns. Prior to that there were 17 smaller burns. So I think again the types of fires 18 that have been experienced in this particular area 19 ranged the whole gamut. 20 Q. And you saw no evidence of any 21 displacement of or transition in the macrophyte 22 communities as a result of those burns? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 24 A. Where? 25 Q. Along your transect lines. 284 1 A. In 3A? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No. 4 Q. You are also referring to here data 5 derived from Refuge bird rookeries and field 6 observations. 7 Do you intend those to be two separate 8 things or data derived from -- does that mean data 9 derived from LNWR bird rookeries and then field 10 observations related to those rookeries or two 11 separate categories? 12 A. They would be two separate categories. 13 Q. Let's deal with the first category then. 14 What data did you derive from the Refuge bird 15 rookeries? 16 A. An examination was made to look at the 17 effects of bird rookeries on vegetation, total 18 phosphorus in the soil, alkaline phosphatase activity 19 in the water and total phosphorus levels in the water 20 associated with bird rookeries within Loxahatchee 21 National Wildlife Refuge. 22 Q. Is this the data that we discussed 23 yesterday? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 Q. What did this reveal to you? 285 1 A. That in the absence of or in areas that 2 have similar hydrology, in the absence of a source of 3 phosphorus such as a bird rookery there are not 4 elevated levels of phosphorus or decreased levels of 5 alkaline phosphatase associated with downstream areas 6 of bird or -- of islands in Loxahatchee. 7 Q. Isn't that sort of a tautology in terms of 8 just looking at the elevated soil phosphorus 9 concentrations, in other words, wouldn't you expect 10 there to be elevated soil concentrations of 11 phosphorus next to a bird rookery? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So there is nothing particularly 14 surprising about that conclusion? 15 A. Oh, no. 16 Q. Then I am having a hard time understanding 17 what significance you draw from that fact? 18 A. That's in the control areas where there 19 were no elevated levels of phosphorus, there were no 20 cattails. 21 Q. How does your information regarding AP 22 activity relate to that study? 23 A. Alkaline phosphatase activity was 24 decreased closer to the source of phosphorus and 25 increased further away, further downstream. 286 1 Q. Dr. Jones, have you done any experiments 2 yourself in the Everglades ecosystem? 3 A. I don't know what you mean by an 4 experiment. 5 Q. Field experiments. 6 A. Such as? 7 Q. Such as a dosing study or anything like 8 that. 9 A. No. 10 Q. Your final category here is field 11 observations. Can you just elucidate for me in 12 summary fashion what these field observations are? 13 A. I spent a considerable amount of time on 14 the ground, in my airboat, flying over the Everglades 15 just examining the system. And one of the things 16 that I noticed, actually one of the things that I 17 didn't notice before all this came about was I didn't 18 notice cattails in this system. It is almost an 19 inconspicuous portion of the Everglades system. 20 So one of the things that you then become 21 attuned to is wherever you see a cattail you would 22 try and notice what is it associated with. And it 23 turns out that a lot of these vegetative changes 24 including the periphyton and other macrophytes tend 25 to be associated with elevated phosphorus levels in 287 1 the soil or areas that you would assume to have 2 elevated phosphorus levels in the soil and not 3 necessarily representing different hydroperiods. 4 Q. Do you see cattails everywhere that you 5 find elevated levels of phosphorus in the soils? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do cattails require elevated levels of 8 phosphorus in the soil to survive in that ecosystem? 9 A. It depends on whether we are talking 10 survive or thrive. 11 Q. Let's say thrive. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. They require elevated levels of phosphorus 14 in the soil to thrive? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can you identify for me any areas where 17 cattails currently thrive in the Everglades ecosystem 18 that are not also characterized by some man-made 19 disturbance? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you identify what those are? 22 A. Bird rookeries, alligator holes, areas 23 where there have been, areas generally immediately 24 downstream of streak muck fires where, say, for 25 instance, a tree island has been burnt out, there has 288 1 been evidence of cattails in those particular areas. 2 Mostly some sort of a natural disturbance. 3 Q. But the cattail in all these regards 4 except for, say, the bird islands are all associated 5 with some form of disturbance, would that be correct? 6 A. They are all associated with elevated 7 levels of phosphorus. 8 Q. Let me ask the question from a different 9 perspective, then. 10 Identify for me areas that are, where 11 cattails thrive that are not characterized both by 12 elevated soil phosphorus and by disturbance in some 13 form. 14 A. I am not aware of any. I take that back. 15 I could think of the example perhaps along the 16 estuarine margin where the marine environment meets 17 the freshwater Everglades. There is an ability of 18 certain species of cattail to outcompete sawgrass or 19 some of the other freshwater organisms in the 20 presence of high salt. They usually also have higher 21 levels of phosphorus associated with or higher levels 22 of available phosphorus associated with them also but 23 there is an estuarine fringe in this environment 24 also. 25 Q. That is somewhat removed from our 289 1 discussion? 2 A. It is somewhat removed, that's why I 3 didn't bring it in to begin with but that does exist 4 in the Everglades. 5 Q. The next bullet point reads, "Bacteria are 6 the first to show measurable effects of nutrient 7 loading and any alteration of the bacterial community 8 will cause adverse changes in the rate/type of 9 processes occurring in the ecosystem." 10 Why are bacteria the first to show these 11 measurable effects? 12 A. Mainly because of their ability to respond 13 rapidly. Their growth times can be, I think the 14 record now is a cell dividing in two and a half 15 minutes so they can respond very rapidly. 16 Q. When we are talking about bacteria here 17 what specifically are we referring to? 18 A. That is a big question. Bacteria are a 19 whole group of organisms to themselves, a whole 20 kingdom, if you will, of organisms. By numbers, they 21 are the dominant organism in the world. 22 Q. You also say that any alteration of the 23 bacterial community will cause adverse changes in the 24 rate and type of processes occurring in the 25 ecosystem. 290 1 What do you mean by alteration in that 2 context? 3 A. In this it is also the alteration of the 4 bacterial community, not saying the alteration of a 5 specific group of bacteria but rather the community 6 of bacteria. We touched on that a little bit 7 yesterday with the shift, say, for instance, again 8 aerobic and anaerobic metabolism and that is what I 9 am referring to in this circumstance or similar types 10 of shifts. 11 Q. So you would admit that the bacterial 12 community naturally goes through some rather severe 13 fluctuations and that's not the sort of thing that 14 you are referring to here? 15 A. I would say that that is an area that is 16 under a great deal of study at the moment. 17 Microbiology and that aspect is not well defined. It 18 is very, very difficult to study these organisms on 19 an autecology level where you study the individuals 20 because of their size. We have been talking about 21 microscopic organisms. You can't tag them and count 22 them. 23 Q. But what you are really looking to here is 24 a shift from aerobic to anaerobic as opposed to just 25 shifts within the compositions of the bacterial 291 1 community? 2 A. Well, not necessarily. If a critical 3 component or any component of this bacterial 4 community that has a role in carbon cycling is 5 altered and that role is changed, it is going to have 6 a trickle up effect or trickle down, whichever way 7 you want to look at it. 8 Q. We have identified in the course of this 9 deposition this transition from aerobic to anaerobic 10 bacteria. What other transitions might there be 11 occurring in this bacterial community that are having 12 these adverse changes? 13 A. Utilization of different forms of carbon. 14 Q. How is that occurring? 15 A. Certain forms of carbon become more 16 available in the presence of higher levels of 17 phosphorus. 18 Q. Is that another way of saying you will 19 have increased biomass as a result of increased 20 levels of phosphorus? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Explain to me the significance of these 23 increased levels of carbon. 24 A. I said the way carbon is cycled, I didn't 25 say increase the carbon. 292 1 Q. Okay, the way it is cycled. 2 A. A carbon compound that contains no 3 phosphorus in the absence of phosphorus would not be 4 able to be utilized by these microorganisms. 5 Therefore, if you add the phosphorus they would then 6 be able to utilize that form of carbon. 7 Q. What is the significance of that fact? 8 A. It is very significant. 9 Q. So they can utilize this carbon, what does 10 that mean? 11 A. I guess the simplest example would be if 12 microorganisms weren't capable of utilizing cellulose 13 we would be up to our, we would be up at the top of 14 this building buried in cellulose. 15 Q. I am trying to determine how this, these 16 kinds of changes are having adverse impacts in this 17 Everglades ecosystem. So could you relate that to 18 how these changes other than the transition from 19 aerobic to anaerobic are having some adverse impacts 20 on the Everglades ecosystem? 21 A. The ecosystem is defined by its base, from 22 this standpoint, aside from whether it is a wetland 23 or whether, what its geology is or anything else like 24 that but from its true ecological considerations the 25 base of almost all ecosystems, and probably all 293 1 ecosystems are their microbial communities. And so 2 any change that you make in that changes fundamental 3 components of the system. 4 Q. That sounds to me like a rather grand 5 biological theory. I would like to know how 6 specifically changes in the Everglades bacterial 7 community other than this shift from aerobic to 8 anaerobic bacteria is having an adverse change in 9 that ecosystem. 10 MS. PONZOLI: Objection, argumentative. 11 A. I am sorry to sound grandiose or whatever, 12 but that's just the fact of the matter. 13 Q. Is there any specific evidence of these 14 adverse impacts? What are the symptoms? 15 A. You go from an anaerobic to -- or aerobic 16 to anaerobic system; you have different forms of 17 carbon available to cycle throughout the rest of the 18 system, therefore you have a whole different system 19 developing under those circumstances. 20 Q. I understand that. We discussed at length 21 the shift from aerobic to anaerobic. What other 22 types of shifts are occurring? 23 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered, Mr. 24 Hyde. 25 MR. HYDE: It has been asked repeatedly, 294 1 it has not been answered. 2 MS. PONZOLI: We have a difference of 3 opinion. I already object to you arguing with the 4 witness. He can continue to try to answer but I 5 think you will reach badgering at some point. 6 Q. Are there any specific symptoms that you 7 see occurring in the Everglades ecosystem that are 8 associated with bacterial community changes other 9 than this shift from aerobic to anaerobic bacteria? 10 MS. PONZOLI: I think your question 11 presumes that you can separate that out and looking 12 at the symptoms. 13 A. I view that shift as a fundamental basic 14 change in the system. It is my opinion that a system 15 based on aerobic metabolism of carbon compound and a 16 system that is based on the anaerobic metabolism of 17 carbon compounds are not the same system. 18 Q. So I guess the long and short of it is 19 that you are not able to point out to me any other 20 changes? 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 22 question. That doesn't mean your question can be 23 answered the way you keep asking it. You are just 24 assuming it can be answered. 25 Q. Dr. Jones, I think you said earlier that 295 1 there were other alterations in the bacterial 2 community other than shifts from aerobic to 3 anaerobic. Is that correct or not? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. What are these other shifts? 6 A. I indicated to you that a lot of these 7 shifts have to do with the way carbon is cycled in 8 the system, the way nitrogen is cycled in the system, 9 the way sulfur is cycled in the system, the way iron 10 is cycled in the system. 11 Q. Didn't you connect those changes to the 12 shift from aerobic to anaerobic bacteria? 13 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to the 14 whole line of questioning, Mr. Hyde. As I am 15 understanding your questions and his answers, you 16 want to separate out parts of this system that can 17 not be separated out and observe changes. So your 18 questions can not really be answered the way you want 19 them answered and you continue to ask them in the 20 same way. 21 Q. Can you answer my question? 22 A. No, I can not. 23 Q. Dr. Jones, are anaerobic conditions normal 24 in the Everglades? 25 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 296 1 A. If you ask me that in its most simplistic 2 way the answer is yes. 3 Q. Do you need anaerobic conditions to build 4 up peat? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Are anaerobic bacteria not found in the 7 Everglades normally during the wet season? 8 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 9 A. Anaerobic bacteria are found everywhere in 10 the Everglades. 11 Q. That would be true of so-called enriched 12 areas as opposed to unenriched areas? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You state that this opinion in this regard 15 is based on AP analysis of Everglades water and 16 review of the scientific literature. 17 In your previous supplemental summary, I 18 believe that was Exhibit 54, you also included, and 19 soil samples there, is that correct? 20 MS. PONZOLI: You have to look at 54. 21 MR. NIEGO: I object to the form. He 22 stated that he didn't prepare it and you said "you 23 also included." 24 (Pause) 25 A. That sentence was a very awkward sentence 297 1 and the major change I made was the word soil 2 samples. It was sufficient to say AP because as I 3 have indicated earlier, the alkaline phosphatase 4 activity is predominantly a water column measurement. 5 Q. So soil samples don't really play any 6 basis in the foundation for this opinion? 7 A. Not my particular soil samples, no. 8 Q. Someone else's soil samples? 9 A. The literature. 10 Q. Which literature are you referring to? 11 A. There are a number of scientific 12 publications that deal with effects of soil alkaline 13 phosphatase and acid phosphatase activities. 14 Q. Are there some authors that you could 15 point me out to? 16 A. Not at the moment. Going back looking at 17 the paper on alkaline phosphatase. 18 Q. Would they be referenced in your paper? 19 A. They would be referenced in a number of 20 publications. 21 Q. Would they be referenced in any of your 22 particular publications? 23 A. They are referenced in at least one 24 document that was produced with my stuff. I don't 25 remember if it was produced as an exhibit. 298 1 Q. A while ago I asked you a series of 2 questions about how you went about measuring AP 3 activity in the water column. I would like to ask 4 you some specific questions now about how you measure 5 phosphorus in the soil. 6 First of all, do you consider yourself a 7 soil scientist? 8 A. Soil is a terminology that is generally 9 applied to a more agrarian, agronomic type of study. 10 I deal a lot with sediments. A number of people have 11 corrected me on that because if you want to do things 12 like drain the Everglades apparently you can plant 13 sugar cane on them and therefore they are soils. I 14 prefer to think of the Everglades containing 15 sediments but it is a matter of semantics at that 16 time. 17 So I would consider myself to be a 18 biogeochemist or aquatic ecologist, and the sediment 19 or soil fraction of that is an important thing but I 20 wouldn't define myself in the traditional sense as a 21 soil scientist because that is an agronomic term. I 22 am having more to do with those types of areas. 23 Q. I would like you to take me through the 24 same process we went through before, that is how you 25 take a sample of, a soil sample that you are going to 299 1 measure for phosphorus in the field, take it through 2 the laboratory process, okay? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. First of all, what do you do you when you 5 go out to the field to take your sample? 6 A. We generally go out by helicopter, land in 7 an area. 8 I sampled predominantly two different 9 types of areas when they were present, those would be 10 open water areas which as I indicated yesterday have 11 an E usually associated with them, and sawgrass 12 dominated areas which have an S associated with them. 13 Go out and collect a series of samples, 14 either using two inch PVC cores or collected by hand, 15 composite a collection of between three and five 16 cores or grab samples, mix those samples in a 17 container to homogenize them to some extent, picking 18 out plant roots, snails, rocks, various types of 19 debris that would alter the -- that are not 20 representative of the soil, place those, a portion of 21 that into a polyethylene specimen cup and repeat that 22 between two and three times for each of the 23 particular areas within that site for both the open 24 water and the sawgrass areas. 25 Then transport them back to the 300 1 laboratory. 2 Q. Let's back up just for a moment. How 3 specifically do you collect soil samples of soil that 4 is under the water? Does the fact of the water have 5 any, come to affect at all your collection effort? 6 A. It makes it difficult. 7 Q. What if there are plants there as well, do 8 you pull them out of the way or what do you try to do 9 to ensure you are just getting a good sample of soil 10 as opposed to other things like plants or other 11 vegetative matter that doesn't really belong there? 12 A. The plant density is not generally, except 13 for in the impacted areas as, so dense that you can't 14 find areas between tricomes where you can collect a 15 sample without coring through a plant. 16 Q. What do you do with the soil samples once 17 you -- do you put them in a cooler to take them back 18 to the lab? 19 A. Yes, they are placed in a cooler. 20 Q. Is that kept at ambient temperatures? 21 A. They are kept at ambient temperature. 22 Q. And then I presume at that point you take 23 them back to a lab? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How quickly do you do your lab test after 301 1 you have done your field sampling? 2 A. The samples are immediately placed into a 3 drying oven so as soon as we get back to the 4 laboratory they are dried at 80 degrees centigrade. 5 Q. What happens at that point? 6 A. They take them out of the oven, allow them 7 to cool, grind them, grind the entire sample, mix it 8 and then take an aliquot of that or a portion of that 9 and put it into a glass scintillation vial where it 10 is labeled, cataloged and stored and then we do the 11 various analyses from that homogenized sample. 12 Q. How do you grind the soil? 13 A. We use what is referred to as a Wiley 14 mill. 15 Q. Could you describe for me what a Wiley 16 mill is? 17 A. It is a very expensive meat grinder. 18 Sorry, there. 19 It is another one of these scientific 20 instruments that costs an awful lot more than it 21 should. 22 It is nothing more than a grinder, a 23 spinning blade that, and a screen that will grind a 24 sample to various mesh sizes. 25 Q. How do you differentiate between soil 302 1 samples or sediment samples, whatever you want to 2 call them that are based on PVC cores and those which 3 are based on your hand samples? 4 A. We did a number of different studies to 5 see what the top -- we have done cores throughout the 6 whole column and looked at phosphorus with depth and 7 a number of those. 8 But we initially collected all of our 9 samples by the two inch course. And the time 10 involved in collecting those types of samples and 11 compositing them became prohibitive in trying to get 12 20 or 30 stations done in a days. So we did an 13 experiment where we compared coring with grabbed 14 samples and found no significant difference. In 15 fact, we found no difference at all mathematically 16 significant between the two different techniques. 17 We have continued to still collect core 18 samples on occasion when we can and we use grab 19 samples when that is not available. 20 Q. Can you describe for me the process by 21 which you collect a hand sample? 22 A. Sure. Generally going out into the 23 environment and simply grabbing a handful of 24 sediment, placing it into the plastic container and 25 repeating that between three and five times, mixing 303 1 up the sample. 2 It is very often you will see in the 3 literature where people have referred to grab samples 4 versus core samples and that's essentially all they 5 are referring to. 6 Q. You referred a moment ago to I guess a 7 test that you or your associates ran to ensure that 8 the hand samples were the same as the PVC samples. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is there any data for that comparison 11 process? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. Where is that data? 14 A. I believe it was produced. I am not sure 15 it was in these documents. Again, it was in one of 16 those folders. I also have data from the entry to 17 the EAA where we did both cores and grab samples and 18 I also have grab samples compared to the cores taken 19 by the Sugar Cane League's entry into the Park. 20 Q. Did you engage in any statistical analysis 21 when you were comparing these two types of sampling 22 methodologies? 23 A. Yes. It was rather unnecessary, though. 24 Q. In doing your hand samples how do you 25 determine bulk density? 304 1 A. We don't utilize bulk density to a great 2 extent. We have determined bulk density on the soils 3 on different occasions utilizing samples collected 4 using cored samples. Bulk density when you are using 5 the term as we have done it as micrograms per gram is 6 not a consideration. 7 Q. This data comparing the two methods of 8 sampling, is it found in the documents that were 9 turned over about a year ago as well as the documents 10 that you turned over, say, a week or so ago? 11 A. It would have been in the documents a year 12 ago. 13 Q. A year ago, okay. 14 Could you describe that documentation, how 15 I might find it or how I might identify it? 16 A. I believe there is the word core on top of 17 a number of the sheets. 18 Q. Does that information have any other 19 distinguishing characteristics? 20 A. I don't believe so. 21 Q. If it does not say core, is it safe to 22 assume that you just got a hand sample? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Then how do you differentiate between the 25 two? 305 1 A. I would believe Dan Scheidt's field notes 2 may very well indicate those because I know that the 3 first series of samples collected along the transect 4 were all done with cores. 5 Q. When you are doing your sampling whether 6 by core or by hand, how do you know where your sample 7 is taken? Do you keep records of that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Does the soil vary from place to place 10 along a gradient that you might be taking there? 11 A. I am sorry, I am unclear. 12 Q. I am unclear too. Let me think. 13 Does soil vary along a gradient? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 15 A. I am sorry, I am still having problems 16 with, I don't know what you mean, along the gradient. 17 Q. Does soil vary from place to place? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So it is very important to keep precise 20 records of where you took the data? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. In terms of your analytical methods, that 23 is not the right term but in terms of your laboratory 24 analyses, what type of digestion process do you 25 utilize? 306 1 A. We use a modification of a method from the 2 manual for analysis of soils and a paper in limnology 3 and oceanography and I can't think of the name of the 4 authors right offhand. It would be in one of my 5 references, the methodology is described in a paper 6 that you have and actually is in later on in these 7 exhibits. But it is essentially a high temperature 8 ashing and then a hydrolysis of the resulting 9 orthophosphate and then using standard methods to 10 analyze that orthophosphate. 11 Q. When you say standard methods, what are 12 you referring to? 13 A. There is a manual actually called Standard 14 Methods of Water and Wastewater Analysis or EPA's 15 manual and we are essentially using the same type of 16 techniques outlined in those manuals. 17 Q. Does your lab have a QA/QC program? 18 A. It has a QA/QC protocol for our 19 laboratory. 20 Q. What is that? Is it found in a particular 21 document? 22 A. We have a document that we produced. 23 Generally analytical laboratories at the university 24 level don't undergo the same type of procedures that 25 the contract laboratories in the State of Florida or 307 1 anywhere else do for certification. It is not very, 2 it is not important that our results are comparable 3 with the sewage treatment plant in Fort Pierce. 4 It is important that our results are 5 comparable with the other scientists in the community 6 throughout the world. And we tend to use a different 7 type of protocol. We tend to be much stricter than 8 the contract laboratories would be. 9 Q. Have you produced for us that QA/QC 10 protocol for your lab? 11 A. I am certain it was amongst my documents. 12 Q. How would it have been identified other 13 than by those terms? 14 A. I believe that would be pretty 15 characteristic of what it says it is. 16 Q. Would that have been produced with your 17 previous production back in 1993? 18 A. I believe so. 19 Q. Have you been certified in this area? 20 A. Again, certification is a characteristic 21 that is used for the contract laboratories. We are 22 in the process now of doing some projects under the 23 SWIM plan which will require us to have a DEP 24 approved plan and we are in the process of preparing 25 that document at the moment. For the work that I 308 1 have done in the past, certification is not required, 2 although my laboratory has operated under both EPA 3 certification and DER certification in the past for 4 certain analyses that we have made. We do not 5 routinely keep that status running because by law 6 being an official agency of the State of Florida we 7 are not supposed to be competing with CH2M Hill or 8 John's company for business to do routine water 9 quality analysis. 10 MR. HYDE: Why don't we take another short 11 break here. 12 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 13 after which the following proceedings 14 were had) 15 MR. HYDE: Back on the record. 16 BY MR. HYDE: 17 Q. Dr. Jones, I would like to ask you a few 18 cleanup questions about your sampling methodology. 19 I believe you stated a while ago that you 20 did not measure bulk density when doing so, is that 21 correct? 22 A. No, I said we measured bulk density using 23 samples collected from cores. 24 Q. But you don't use bulk density when it 25 comes to your hand samples, is that correct? 309 1 A. I am not saying that we don't -- I am 2 saying -- what I said was that the representation of 3 total phosphorus in micrograms per gram is not a unit 4 that takes into account bulk density. I did not say 5 we did not measure bulk density. 6 Q. Do you measure bulk density at all with 7 your hand samples? 8 A. We have measured relative density of the 9 sample. I would hesitate to call it bulk density 10 because of the specific terminology that that invokes 11 in especially the soil scientist's mind. Density on 12 the other hand of the soils we did measure. I just 13 would not use the term bulk density because of its 14 specific nature to the soil scientists. 15 Q. How do you compare different soil types 16 then between your hand samples and your core samples? 17 A. Between a hand sample and a core sample 18 the soil type is the same. 19 Q. How would you compare a hand sample of 20 marl to a hand sample of peat? 21 A. That comparison is a comparison that we 22 have not made at the moment. We have distinguished 23 between samples that contain peat which are 24 predominantly peat soils versus soils which are 25 predominantly marl and we have left that distinction 310 1 separate because it's a apples comparing with oranges 2 type of a scenario. 3 Q. You said you engage in some sort of 4 density determination in your hand samples, maybe not 5 a bulk density one but still a density type of 6 determination, is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. How do you do this? I would like you to 9 be as specific as possible. 10 A. The volume of the sample collected ends up 11 being in a cup of a sample of a known volume, that's 12 measured, weighed and upon drying it is weighed 13 again. And the difference would be the density of 14 that particular sample per unit, per unit volume. 15 Q. So you take your hand sample, whatever it 16 is and then stick it in this cup up to a certain 17 level and that's the unit of measurement for you? 18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. That 19 wasn't his answer, Mr. Hyde, not at all. 20 A. The cups are graduated and we make a 21 measurement off of what is on them, by the 22 graduations on there and get an estimate of what the 23 density is. It is not a figure that we have or it is 24 not a calculation that we have used to a great 25 extent. 311 1 There are certain analyses where it is 2 very important to know what the bulk density is. 3 This particular analysis is not one of those. 4 Q. When you place the matter in this 5 measuring cup, do you just drop it in loose or do you 6 densely pack it? 7 A. It is just dropped in, it is not packed in 8 any way, shape or form. 9 Q. So you don't tamp it down? 10 A. I wouldn't call it tamping down. It is 11 placed in the cup and again bulk density is not 12 something, density is not something that we would pay 13 a lot of attention to. 14 Q. When you engage in the act of picking up 15 the sample by hand wouldn't you necessarily squeeze 16 the soil a bit and thereby changes its density? 17 A. You can make some minor changes. The 18 calculations that we have compared to where we made 19 actual bulk density changes versus these, those would 20 be in, the changes in density would, if my memory 21 serves me, would be in the range of somewhere between 22 two or four percent, the difference between the two 23 types of samples. 24 Q. I believe you stated yesterday that you 25 sampled to a depth of ten centimeters, is that 312 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How do you know that you have achieved a 4 ten centimeter depth when you are just employing your 5 hand sampling modality? 6 A. The reason the ten centimeters was 7 determined was actually based when we sampled with 8 cores we would sample at every two centimeter 9 intervals. By taking a ruler, I am the person who 10 has done all the soil samples myself, I collected 11 every soil sample analyzed under these circumstances, 12 so it is basically knowing what ten centimeters is, 13 is that (indicating), and that's why I said zero to 14 ten centimeters. But that's based also on 15 comparison, the cores were actually sectioned between 16 one and two centimeter intervals. 17 Q. I would like to refer now to Exhibit No. 18 53, that is your declaration. 19 (Pause) 20 Q. Just as a final series of questions about 21 your hand sampling, what percentage of recovery do 22 you get from your soil phosphorus analysis? 23 A. Percentage recovery of phosphorus that 24 would be in the soil? 25 Q. Yes. 313 1 A. You can't base that on the soil itself but 2 comparing it to, again, like I said I don't believe 3 what NBS turned into, National Bureau of Standards, 4 comparing it to reference materials it would appear 5 our sampling recovery is somewhere between 98 and 102 6 percent. 7 Q. Now do you know that? 8 A. By digesting these reference materials in 9 the same manner or by spiking a sample with a known 10 quantity of the reference material and determining 11 what you recover from it. 12 Q. What standards again do you say that you 13 employ here? 14 A. Under this circumstance we would be using 15 the NBS orchard leaves which are the citrus leaves 16 and then we also use our referenced material which 17 were the Anona leaves that I talked about yesterday. 18 Q. Referring now to Exhibit No. 53, I believe 19 it is safe to say that a lot of the opinions that are 20 expressed in this document are really the same as 21 those that were already expressed in your 22 supplemental summary. So I am going to try to just 23 focus on those areas that appear to be different in 24 Exhibit 53. 25 I would like you to turn to page 3 of that 314 1 document, numbered paragraph 5. In the first 2 sentence it reads, "All ecosystems have an intrinsic 3 capacity to handle fluctuations in phosphorus levels 4 which depends on many factors, such as water flow, 5 sediment composition, historical phosphorus loads 6 and, most important, microbial mineralization and 7 remineralization processes." 8 Can you describe generally what you mean 9 by that expressed opinion there? 10 (Pause) 11 A. Could you be a little more specific about, 12 I read this sentence and to me it seems 13 self-explanatory and so therefore I really would 14 prefer to have the more specific questions, if you 15 could. 16 Q. I will try that. Are fluctuations in 17 phosphorus levels a natural part of just about any 18 ecosystem? 19 A. Static situations are very rare in natural 20 systems. Sometimes the fluctuations are at levels 21 where our analytical capabilities are pressed to 22 their limits. So what may appear to be a stasis or a 23 static level is actually an artifact of the ability 24 to analyze for that particular component. 25 Q. How does water flow affect an ecosystem's 315 1 capacity to handle fluctuations in phosphorus levels? 2 A. I think the best example would be to use 3 something like a river where if the flow -- if you 4 have a constant concentration of phosphorus in the 5 water column and the flow of that is very, very rapid 6 across a surface, you would have, the surface would 7 take up that phosphorus in a different manner than it 8 would if the flow were relatively slow across that 9 same surface. 10 Q. Let's direct your attention in this regard 11 to the Park. If you know, how would water flow into 12 the Park affect that ecosystem's capacity to handle 13 fluctuations and phosphorus levels? 14 A. In this case, the Park water would be both 15 the delivery and removal mechanism for phosphorus in 16 the system. 17 Q. Does the volume of water in the system 18 have any impact on the system's capacity to handle 19 these phosphorus fluctuations? 20 A. In that the volume and flow are related 21 and volume and the total quantity or mass of 22 phosphorus in the system are related, the answer 23 would be yes. 24 Q. Does the depth of the water in that 25 ecosystem have any bearing upon that ecosystem's 316 1 capacity to handle fluctuations in phosphorus levels? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How so? 4 A. It would effectively limit, there could 5 limit or there could be a constraining factor, an 6 amount of contact time or could be a factor of 7 contact time of sediment of the water face, if the 8 water column is deeper it may have less contact time. 9 Q. In other words, it would simply flow by as 10 opposed to being taken up by the soil? 11 A. It may never come in contact with the 12 soil. 13 Q. What about just the fluctuation of the 14 water flow itself from wet season highs to dry season 15 lows in the Park? Does that have any impact on 16 phosphorus levels? 17 A. Could you, I am sorry, I missed something 18 on that question. 19 MS. PONZOLI: Read it back. 20 THE WITNESS: Read it back. 21 Q. Let me just rephrase it, I think it will 22 be easier. 23 You would agree, wouldn't you, that there 24 is a seasonal fluctuation in water deliveries to the 25 Park under naturally occurring events? 317 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't 2 really know what you are talking about. 3 What time frame are you talking about, Mr. 4 Hyde? 5 MR. HYDE: Seasonal, annual basis. 6 MS. PONZOLI: You are talking about now, 7 present day? 8 MR. HYDE: Yes. 9 A. I would not use the word deliveries in 10 that statement. 11 Q. Let me see if I can rephrase it. 12 Does the Park go through dry and wet 13 seasons? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Does that characteristic of the Park, that 16 is going from dry to wet seasons on a recurring 17 basis, have any impact upon that ecosystem's capacity 18 to handle phosphorus fluctuations? 19 A. It has an impact on the mechanisms by 20 which the system handles fluctuations in phosphorus. 21 Q. How does it impact those mechanisms? 22 A. A static pool of water sitting during the 23 dry season is going to have significantly different 24 characteristics than sheet flow going down through 25 the slough. 318 1 Q. Does that fluctuation in water levels on a 2 seasonal basis have anything to do with releasing 3 phosphorus from the soils? 4 A. Research that we have done would indicate 5 that there is a possibility that there is an 6 additional increase or that there is an increase 7 during the dry season in these pools. But at the 8 same time that would be virtually impossible to 9 extract from the fact that there are also 10 concentration effects in that you have taken a fairly 11 large quantity of water, evaporated off the water and 12 remain with phosphorus and everything else 13 concentrated in those pools along with fishes and a 14 number of other organisms which would tend to 15 increase the level of phosphorus in those particular 16 sites. 17 Q. The next factor that you have listed here 18 is sediment composition. How does that affect the 19 ecosystem's intrinsic capacity to handle phosphorus 20 fluctuations? 21 A. Under this circumstance I was 22 predominantly concerned with the marl versus peat 23 soil type of thing in the Park. There are obviously 24 other general sediment compositional characteristics 25 but for the Everglades the marl and peat scenario 319 1 would be most critical. 2 Q. What is different about those two soil 3 types in terms of their impact upon the ecosystem's 4 ability to handle these fluctuations? 5 A. Mostly their physicochemical 6 characteristics are significantly different, one 7 being a mineral type of a soil, if you will, 8 particularly the carbonate minerals -- 9 Q. That's the marl? 10 A. That would be the marl, and the other 11 being a predominantly organic matrix type of soil 12 which would be the peat. 13 Q. Given those differences in the 14 physicochemical properties of the soils, how do they 15 differ in their capacity to handle these 16 fluctuations? 17 A. That's one of the areas that we are 18 continuing to research. We have just recently done a 19 series of initial studies using the marl soils. We 20 have fairly extensively characterized the peat soils. 21 So I can tell you that there are differences that we 22 have found. The extent and what those differences 23 are, is still under experimentation at this time. 24 Q. What differences have you found to date? 25 A. That the marl soils tend to have a higher 320 1 absorptive capacity for orthophosphate but they tend 2 to saturate more quickly than the peat soils. 3 Q. Is that the same thing as saying that the 4 phosphate binds more readily to the carbonate soils? 5 A. The characteristics of binding and the 6 extent of, I should say the characteristics of 7 sorption and the extent of that are different in the 8 two. We will start getting into a discussion of 9 certain modeling parameters if we are not careful 10 here. 11 Q. Would it be fair to say that the marl type 12 soils have a better short term uptake of the 13 phosphorus whereas the peat soils may not be as good 14 in the short term but may have longer term effects? 15 A. That term, when you say short term and 16 long term, again I would have to say that these are 17 talking about what I think universally we would all 18 consider to be short term so if one is in the shorter 19 term the marl has, in the hours to days type of a 20 time frame your statement is true. 21 Q. How does that relate to the peat, then? 22 What time periods are we talking about there? 23 A. The same time periods. There are some 24 long-term characteristics that the particular studies 25 that I am doing do not address at the moment. 321 1 Q. Why is the capacity of the marl type soils 2 to absorb phosphorus more quickly used up? I am 3 using a layman's term of that describing that 4 situation, if you will bear with me. 5 A. Remember we are talking orthophosphate 6 here, not total phosphorus, there is a difference 7 between the two. It is the predominance of the type 8 of reactions, if you will, that the orthophosphate is 9 having with the matrix of the marl soils versus the 10 type of binding or absorption that occurs in the peat 11 soils that makes it -- there are sites that take it 12 up more rapidly but there are fewer sites available. 13 Q. You differentiated in the context of your 14 previous answer between orthophosphate and total 15 phosphorus. Why did you do so? 16 A. Because I have become nervous when people 17 just talk about phosphorus as if phosphorus is an 18 element and what we have is phosphate in the 19 environment, we have a nondescript term such as total 20 phosphorus which includes everything from 21 microorganisms to, well, you could be considered a 22 form of total phosphorus if you want to come to the 23 lab and let me digest you. 24 It is just sort of a nervousness. I want 25 to make sure we are discussing the same thing. So 322 1 when you say phosphorus I want to make sure that we 2 know we are talking the same form of phosphorus or 3 forms of phosphorus. 4 Q. Are the marl type soils not able to absorb 5 these other types of phosphorus? 6 A. We have not done the experimentation in 7 that area yet. 8 Q. So your experimentation just relates to 9 orthophosphate at this point? 10 A. No, the experimentation with marls only 11 has worked with orthophosphate at this point. 12 Q. Has your experimentation with peat type 13 soils dealt with any other parameters than 14 orthophosphate? 15 A. We have also looked at the total 16 phosphorus fraction and its various components. 17 Q. The next factor listed here is historical 18 phosphorus loads. 19 Why are you looking here at historical 20 phosphorus loads versus historical phosphorus 21 concentrations? 22 A. Concentration in load can be confusing 23 terms. 24 As I testified yesterday, at certain 25 concentrations it would not matter what load you had 323 1 because if the community could not take it up or the 2 system was below the abilities of the community to 3 see that concentration, you could have any load. And 4 so under this circumstance talking about specifically 5 soils, under this particular paragraph, or under this 6 scenario here, the load would be sort of the 7 long-term interest greater, rather than the 8 concentration. We could talk about concentrations in 9 the soil also. 10 Q. The next two factors are microbial 11 mineralization and remineralization processes. 12 Specifically how does microbial 13 mineralization impact upon this systems's capacity to 14 handle phosphorus fluctuations? 15 A. Microorganisms are generally the sort of 16 front line organisms that will remove phosphorus in 17 its various forms from the water column and take it 18 into the soil matrix or to the sediment matrix and 19 they facilitate that. That is not to say that 20 chemical processes and physical binding processes 21 don't occur also. 22 Q. How does remineralization affect it? 23 A. Remineralization is generally more of a, 24 we generally refer to that more in the terms of a 25 release of phosphorus. So that would be one of the 324 1 things that microorganisms are capable of doing. 2 Q. So based on this statement, that is the 3 first sentence in paragraph 5 of Exhibit 53, would 4 you agree that in looking at the Everglades' 5 abilities to handle fluctuations in phosphorus levels 6 you have to look at factors beyond simply historic 7 phosphorus loading? 8 A. I think that we are taking one sentence 9 and taking it out of context of sort of the whole 10 declaration. I would hesitate to make that -- to 11 affirm to what you just said based on this one 12 particular sentence without taking it in the context 13 of this entire declaration. 14 Q. You would agree, wouldn't you, that these, 15 all these other factors come into play when looking 16 at an ecosystem's ability to handle phosphorus 17 fluctuations? 18 MS. PONZOLI: It has been asked and 19 answered, Mr. Hyde. 20 Q. Yes or no? 21 A. Yes, I would. 22 Q. I would like to call your attention now to 23 paragraph 9 which is on page 5 of the document. I am 24 not going to read the whole thing out but I would 25 like you to just refresh your recollection by reading 325 1 that paragraph again. 2 (Pause) 3 Q. At this point I would like to call your 4 attention to the second to last sentence which reads, 5 these concentrations were five to ten times higher 6 than TP levels in the soil at a point 16 kilometers 7 south of S-12C which averaged 166 parts per million. 8 A. 186. 9 Q. 186, excuse me. 10 Do you still agree with that statement? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Since you made that statement you have 13 gone into the Park and taken other samples of total 14 phosphorus in the sediment, have you not? 15 A. Yes, I have. 16 Q. Was some of that data turned over to us as 17 a result of the entry and access program that the 18 League conducted in the Park? 19 A. I am not certain. 20 Q. Let me just call your attention to Jones 21 Exhibit 16 from yesterday. I would like you to turn 22 to the page that is entitled Everglades Park samples 23 total phosphorus sediments samples. 24 A. All right. 25 Q. Can you tell me which of those are the 12C 326 1 samples? 2 A. No. 3 Q. I would like you to just accept for the 4 moment my statement that it is 15A through 21B as 5 being the phosphorus samples south of 12. 6 How do those numbers compare to what you 7 have noted here in your declaration which is Exhibit 8 53, in particular the average you posit at being 186 9 parts per million? 10 A. These are not my samples, these were 11 samples that were collected with the entry by the 12 Sugar Cane League into the Park. 13 I neither agreed with where their samples 14 were being taken nor selected those locations. 15 Q. Are these concentration determinations 16 those which were made by you? 17 A. These were the results of my analysis upon 18 those particular samples, if indeed that's what these 19 1 through 21A and B represent. 20 Q. So 15A, for example, by your 21 determinations had a phosphorus concentration of 22 1,095.18, correct? 23 A. Yes? 24 Q. That would be true with the remainder, 25 correct? 327 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. But you said just a moment ago that you 3 disagreed with some of the sampling sites. 4 A. No, I said I neither agreed nor disagreed, 5 I believe were my words. 6 Q. I would like you to accept for the moment 7 that sites 21A and 21B were at the end of the 8 transect. 9 A. Whose transect? 10 Q. The League's transect. Do you know how 11 far from the 12C structure that was located? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. Do you know whether those two samples were 14 taken from what you would consider to be a pristine 15 or background area? 16 A. It is not. 17 Q. You were there at the time, weren't you? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You just don't recall what that sample 20 site looked like? 21 A. No, I don't recall that. I remember 22 people looking around saying let's land over there, 23 let's land over here and I don't know what the 24 reasoning behind that was. 25 Q. If these two sample sites were more or 328 1 less 16 kilometers south of the C structure, that 2 would indicate a considerable difference between your 3 186 parts per million and the somewhat in excess of 4 500 parts that we have listed here, correct? 5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. You can 6 testify, if you want, or you can put a witness on to 7 show the difference between the two. But I think he 8 has already indicated that he had no say in the 9 choosing of the sites and he neither agreed nor 10 disagreed, Mr. Hyde. I think you are doing apples 11 and oranges here, unless you can do something better 12 than distance. 13 Q. I would like you to assume that they are 14 approximately the same distance as your samples that 15 were 16 kilometers south of 12C. Assuming that to be 16 correct, how do you account for the difference 17 between 186 parts per million measured by your 18 studies and these figures here which are 19 approximately 517 and 556? 20 MS. PONZOLI: Did I miss something? I 21 think his declaration says 6 kilometers and yours is 22 significantly further, 16 kilometers, isn't that 23 right? The sites you are trying to compare? Am I 24 wrong? If I am wrong just tell me 25 MR. HYDE: No, that is correct. 329 1 MS. PONZOLI: I don't see any comparison, 2 I am sorry, you are talking about very different 3 sites. You are presenting a hypothesis that has no 4 foundation in fact. You are talking about a 10 5 kilometer difference. 6 MR. HYDE: No, you are saying 16 7 kilometers here, Suzan, and I am saying 16 8 kilometers. 9 MS. PONZOLI: I am sorry, I thought his 10 said 6 kilometers into the Park, oh, 16, you are 11 right. My objection would still stand as to his not 12 having anything to do with the selection of the sites 13 and 16 kilometers unless you can provide some basis 14 that your point 16 kilometers is somewhat similar to 15 his point 16 kilometers. I am not sure you have the 16 type of factual foundation you need. 17 MR. HYDE: I am trying to account for the 18 differences between the two. 19 MS. PONZOLI: Why don't you just ask him 20 how he would account for the differences. 21 MR. HYDE: That's what I have been trying 22 to ask. 23 A. They are not the same samples, I have no 24 idea of what the matrix was here. These were not 25 along my transect. 16 kilometers south of the Park, 330 1 in the Park, you could find a variety of total 2 phosphorus. 3 Q. How do you know that your transect is any 4 more representative of Park conditions than this 5 tra