233
1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
2
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )
3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and )
WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )
4 Petitioners, )
vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038
5 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
6 of Florida; et al., )
Respondents. )
7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., )
8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )
9 Petitioners, )
vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039
10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
11 of Florida; et al., )
Respondents. )
12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
13 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )
14 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, )
15 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
16 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
of Florida; et al., )
17 Respondents. )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
18 100 Southeast 2nd Street
Miami, Florida
19 February 8, 1994
9:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.
20
DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. JONES
21 VOLUME III - A.M. SESSION
22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered
23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for
24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of
25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause.
234
1 APPEARANCES
2 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS SUGAR CANE GROWERS
COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC. AND
3 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC.
4 HOPPING BOYD GREEN & SAMS
123 South Calhoun Street
5 Tallahassee, Florida 32314
BY: GARY P. SAMS, ESQ.
6
7 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and
8 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC.
9 EARL BLANK KAVANAUGH & STOTTS, P.A.
One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636
10 Two South Biscayne Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33131
11 BY: ROBERT H. BLANK, ESQ.
WILLIAM L. HYDE, ESQ.
12
13 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT
14
STANLEY J. NIEGO, ESQ.
15 South Florida Water Management District
3301 Gun Club Road
16 West Palm Beach, Florida 33406
17
ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR
18 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
19 SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, ESQ.
Assistant United States Attorney
20 99 Northeast 4th Street
Third Floor
21 Miami, Florida 33132
22 PRESENT:
JOHN A. DAVIS
23 TRUMAN E. DUNCAN
B.J. PRESLEY
24 CURTIS J. RICHARDSON
25
235
1
INDEX
2
Witness Direct
3 RONALD DEAN JONES
4 By Mr. Hyde: 236
5
EXHIBITS
6
NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
7 56 Bates No. 1169750 258
57 Map dated 7/7/93 340
8 58 Bates No. 1170829 463
59 Bates No. 1168686 463
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
236
1 RONALD D. JONES, resumed.
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
3 BY MR. HYDE:
4 Q. Dr. Jones, I would just like to remind you
5 that you are still under oath from yesterday.
6 When we broke company yesterday, we were
7 talking about the opinions expressed in your
8 Supplemental Summary of Testimony/Opinions which I
9 believe is Jones Exhibit No. 55. I would like to
10 return to that now.
11 In the third bullet point on the first
12 page of that document you indicate that your opinion
13 is founded on several items, the first being the
14 transect south of the S-12C structure.
15 In the prior sentence, however, you opine
16 that this impact is reflected in the decreasing total
17 phosphorus gradient in soils south of the S-12 water
18 delivery structures, in other words, in that sentence
19 you refer to the plural whereas in the following
20 sentence you speak only of a transect south of the
21 12C structure.
22 Is there any incompatibility there? Can
23 you rationalize those two references, one to the
24 plural and one to the singular?
25 MS. PONZOLI: I would ask you to remember,
237
1 Mr. Hyde, Dr. Jones didn't draft this and hadn't seen
2 it. He made some editorial changes to it. You would
3 probably do better to ask Dr. Jones his opinion and
4 what they are based on but if you prefer to go about
5 it this way, you are certainly free to, but I would
6 like the record to reflect you would do better to ask
7 him his opinions than picking through wording that
8 someone else did.
9 Q. Is there some difference there, Dr. Jones?
10 A. The S-12 structures in the sentence
11 preceding the structure where it specifically says
12 S-12C, I would probably, given the fact that in the
13 prior sentence it says at least six kilometers into
14 the Park, I would utilize, I would put an S-12C in
15 front of that.
16 Q. Okay. You then go on to state in the
17 final sentence of that bullet point the other
18 factors, the second being field observation, third
19 being overflights of the area, fourth being
20 statistical analysis of the data. What statistical
21 analysis are you referring to there?
22 A. A very rudimentary analysis of the total
23 phosphorus levels and the alkaline phosphatase
24 activities from the data collected on the S-12C
25 transect along with some additional statistical
238
1 analysis that was conducted by Bob Doren and myself
2 based on vegetation.
3 Q. Does that statistical analysis find
4 expression in any documents that you provided to us?
5 A. The vegetative portion of it does.
6 Q. Where would that be found?
7 A. It would be in a paper or a draft of a
8 paper by, I don't know for sure what the authors are,
9 but it would be a Doren, Jones, Armentano, perhaps,
10 publication.
11 Q. Would it help you to refer you to your CV.
12 A. It would not. It is in my documents, it
13 is not in my CV. It is in preparation.
14 Q. It is a document in preparation, okay. Is
15 it identified as such in your documents as a document
16 in preparation?
17 A. I believe so. It would probably have the
18 word draft.
19 Q. Does it have a working item?
20 A. I do not know. I assume it does but I
21 don't refer to it as that.
22 Q. Do you recall whether the draft has a date
23 associated with it?
24 A. There are several drafts, all of which
25 have been produced.
239
1 Q. Do you recall anything about the title or
2 the working thesis of that document that would help
3 me identify what it is?
4 A. It has to do with vegetative changes along
5 transects in the EPA.
6 Q. So those transects include areas other
7 than just the Park?
8 A. That's correct.
9 (Robert Blank, John Davis and Curtis
10 Richardson entered the room)
11 Q. I believe you just said one of the other
12 authors was Doren. Was there a third person?
13 A. I believe Dr. Tom Armentano is on this.
14 He may not be on this particular draft.
15 Q. The next category under the factors that
16 support this opinion is knowledge of water flow
17 patterns. Dr. Jones, what do you mean by your
18 knowledge of water flow patterns there?
19 A. Just a general understanding of the
20 direction of water flow in the particular areas
21 associated with the S-12 structures, the culverts and
22 the northern portion of Everglades National Park.
23 Q. What does that general knowledge of water
24 flow patterns in that Park reflect?
25 A. That the water flows through the
240
1 structures and generally heads in a southerly
2 direction.
3 Q. Is that the extent of it?
4 A. There are some more subtleties but you
5 would have to ask me some more specific questions.
6 Q. Are the water flow patterns in that area
7 affected by man-made improvements to the system such
8 as canals or structures in the area?
9 A. Man-made structures, improvements is your
10 word, not mine.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Obviously, yes, they are.
13 Q. How is that done?
14 A. Water is allowed to enter into Everglades
15 National Park, as I described to you yesterday,
16 through a series of S-12 structures. It also flows
17 laterally along the old Tamiami Canal and then enters
18 through a series of culverts along the northern
19 boundary.
20 Q. Are the subtleties as you referred to a
21 few moments ago connected with those man-made
22 structures?
23 A. Some of them.
24 Q. Could you enumerate for me what they are?
25 MS. PONZOLI: I am sorry, I don't
241
1 understand the question.
2 MR. HYDE: He said there are some
3 subtleties associated with those structures and I am
4 asking him to tell me what they are.
5 MS. PONZOLI: I am not sure that was his
6 answer.
7 But, Dr. Jones, do you understand?
8 MR. HYDE: It that --
9 MS. PONZOLI: I thought you said there
10 were subtleties with the water flows, not with the
11 structures.
12 MR. HYDE: We can read it back but --
13 MS. PONZOLI: Why don't you read it back.
14 I think that would be helpful.
15 I would also like the record to reflect
16 the gentlemen who have entered the room.
17 (The portion referred to was
18 thereupon read by the reporter
19 as above recorded)
20 MR. HYDE: I think there was another
21 question related to subtleties. Let me say we are
22 wasting time.
23 BY MR. HYDE:
24 Q. Dr. Jones, are these, quote, subtleties
25 connected with the man-made structures in the Park?
242
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What are they?
3 A. Because of the nature of certain of the
4 structures they are associated with downstream
5 conditions, if you will, and the geology of the area,
6 water exiting the S-12 structures, whether it be D,
7 C, B or A, all has sort of a specific flow pattern
8 that is associated with it.
9 Q. Is that specific flow pattern common to
10 all four of the structures or is it differentiating
11 between them or are they all different?
12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.
13 A. They all have some difference.
14 Q. Let's start with structure A. What
15 subtlety do you detect with the flow pattern from
16 that structure?
17 A. Structure S-12A is in a region of the Park
18 that is slightly higher in elevation. The water
19 tends to move from that structure in a more
20 easterly-southeasterly direction.
21 Q. Is that the extent of that difference
22 associated with S-12A?
23 A. That's the major difference.
24 Q. How does that fact itself affect the
25 impacts that the Park is receiving as a result of
243
1 excess phosphorus by your lights?
2 MS. PONZOLI: You mean the subtlety of the
3 flow pattern?
4 MR. HYDE: Yes.
5 MS. PONZOLI: I think you are assuming
6 something that is not necessarily in evidence. I
7 object to the form of the question.
8 You have assumed that the flow patterns
9 affects the changes that you see.
10 MR. HYDE: He said that it did. It says
11 it right here, Suzan, I don't know how you can
12 belabor the obvious. But I would like Dr. Jones to
13 testify and not you.
14 MS. PONZOLI: I am not testifying.
15 BY MR. HYDE:
16 Q. Dr. Jones, how do the matters that you
17 just described concerning S-12A, that is its higher
18 elevation, affect the flow patterns associated with
19 the structure and as the next step, how it affects
20 the adverse impacts resulting from phosphorus?
21 MS. PONZOLI: Please ask him one question
22 at time, Mr. Hyde. Separate them out, ask him one,
23 he will answer that one, then ask the next one, he
24 will answer that.
25 Do you want him to answer the first one
244
1 first?
2 Q. Dr. Jones, how does that increased
3 elevation at S-12A affect flow patterns in the Park?
4 A. I just answered that.
5 Q. How does that fact impact upon these
6 alleged adverse phosphorus impacts in the Park?
7 A. At structure S-12A I haven't done an in
8 depth study as to what the affects of phosphorus
9 impacts are.
10 Q. So you don't know what they are?
11 A. I have only made observations from, from
12 the overflights for that particular area and a
13 limited number of ground observations and maybe
14 several, two, three measurements of phosphorus.
15 Q. What does this limited analysis tell you?
16 A. That there is some damage south of the
17 S-12A structure.
18 Q. How is that associated with the flow
19 patterns that emanate from that structure?
20 A. I have no knowledge of that.
21 Q. Did you make any measurements of
22 phosphorus in the soils at S-12A?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where is that data?
25 A. It is in some of the documents that were
245
1 produced yesterday.
2 Q. Can you identify what those documents are?
3 A. It was one of the composite exhibits that
4 came from, you know, one of the ones that you
5 referred to I believe that we would have to come back
6 to.
7 Q. Let's move on now to S-12B. What is
8 characteristic about the flow patterns associated
9 with S-12B?
10 A. S-12B I have not spent -- I spent very,
11 very little time examining that.
12 Q. So you have formed no opinion about the
13 flow patterns associated with that structure?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Let's move on now to S-12C. What is
16 unique or what is characteristic about that
17 particular structure?
18 A. S-12C is one of the structures which has
19 had a lot of water delivered through it. It is in an
20 area that is lower elevation than A or B. It is
21 water that tends to head, probably of all of the
22 structures, at least to my knowledge and
23 understanding of this particular area, that water
24 from that particular structure tends to head
25 generally in a southerly direction, maybe slightly to
246
1 the east.
2 Q. I believe you just stated that a lot of
3 water is delivered through the S-12C structure. Are
4 you referring to some specific measurements or is
5 that a seat of the pants type of hunch?
6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think
7 the pejorative on the measurement is not necessary.
8 Q. Dr. Jones, how do you know that there is a
9 lot of water that goes through the S-12C structure?
10 A. Looking at the water deliveries to the
11 Everglades National Park.
12 Q. Who keeps those records?
13 A. I believe the USGS is actually responsible
14 for validating those numbers. I have seen them in
15 the Park's records and in South Florida Water
16 Management District records.
17 Q. You also stated that you felt that the
18 S-12C structure had a lower elevation. How do you
19 know that?
20 A. Not the S-12C structure, the Park, the
21 surface of the rock, if you will, is lower in that
22 particular area.
23 Q. So the lands that are south of the S-12C
24 structure is what you are referring to?
25 A. Immediately south of the S-12C structure.
247
1 Q. How do you know that they have a lower
2 elevation?
3 A. Once again, from reviewing documents at
4 Everglades National Park and discussions with Bob
5 Johnson.
6 Q. What documents are you referring to at the
7 Park?
8 A. I really can't be specific on that. There
9 are a number of reports that are out and I don't
10 remember which one in particular that I reviewed.
11 Q. Have you seen any topographic maps of that
12 area?
13 A. I am sure I have.
14 Q. Do you recall which ones or where you saw
15 them?
16 A. I am sorry, no.
17 Q. Have you seen any surveys of that area?
18 A. Geodetic surveys or what?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I am not sure if I have seen anything for
21 that particular area.
22 Q. What did Mr. Johnson tell you in this
23 regard, just generically that there was a lower
24 elevation there?
25 A. We had a number of discussions over the
248
1 years and I would be, it would be very impossible for
2 me to tell you specifically what he told me on any
3 one occasion. Anything more in general; I think I
4 have gone as much as I can in the generality.
5 Q. Did he provide you with any documentation
6 to this end?
7 A. I already had the documentation for the
8 most part and he just referred me to specific things
9 which I had already read, and I am also familiar with
10 the publications of Mr. Johnson.
11 Q. Does the amount of water, is the amount of
12 water flowing through the S-12C gate dependent on
13 elevation or upon whether the gates are open or
14 closed?
15 A. Both.
16 Q. I believe you also stated that the water
17 in the area of the S-12C structure flowed in a
18 generally southerly direction and maybe a little bit
19 to the east. How do you know that?
20 A. Again, discussions with other Everglades
21 researchers, my own personal observations from being
22 in the field.
23 Q. Who are these other researchers?
24 A. Bob Johnson, Dan Scheidt, Bill Loftus, a
25 number of other people from Everglades National Park.
249
1 But predominantly those three individuals.
2 Q. You also stated that you had some personal
3 observations that supported that conclusion as well?
4 A. I have spent a considerable amount of time
5 in the field in that particular area. I have
6 observed water flows.
7 Q. How do you know it is heading in a
8 southerly direction maybe a little bit to the east,
9 then?
10 A. In my flight suit I always have a little
11 compass. I tend to know which direction is south and
12 which direction is east out there.
13 Q. To my knowledge that water in that area
14 can flow very slowly, can it not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that would be particularly slow if you
17 were away from the structures, correct?
18 A. Your definition of slow and my definition
19 of slow may not be the same.
20 Q. How can you be certain just from visual
21 observation that the flow that you are seeing is in a
22 truly southerly direction as opposed to east or
23 southeast or southwest?
24 A. Since southerly is a fairly broad term, I
25 don't know the exact nautical definition of southerly
250
1 but it is several points off of true south in either
2 direction. So I am not saying that it was flowing
3 due south.
4 Q. You also indicate here that your AP
5 analysis is another factor that comes into play.
6 What is that?
7 A. Alkaline phosphatase analysis.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I am sorry, you asked me what AP was.
10 Q. Let me just back up for a second.
11 Are your observations about the direction
12 of water flow in the Park recorded in any of your
13 field notes?
14 A. No.
15 Q. The next factor listed here in support of
16 your analysis in this regard is your AP analysis.
17 What is that?
18 A. Measurement of alkaline phosphatase in the
19 water column along this S-12C transect in this case.
20 Q. Let me ask you some general questions
21 about alkaline phosphatase. I will refer to it as AP
22 from now on.
23 What is the role of AP in an ecosystem
24 such as the Everglades?
25 MS. PONZOLI: Do you understand the
251
1 question, Dr. Jones? I am not sure I understand it,
2 but if you do, that is fine.
3 A. It is an overly broad question from the
4 standpoint that alkaline phosphatase is a microbial
5 level in the way I am examining it. So to go to its
6 role in the Everglades ecosystem is a leap that I
7 wouldn't make.
8 Q. What kind of organisms have alkaline
9 phosphatase enzymes?
10 A. All organisms have alkaline phosphatase.
11 Q. What is the difference between an alkaline
12 phosphatase and an acid phosphatase?
13 A. The pH at which they function optimally.
14 Q. What is the differentiation between the
15 two?
16 A. Alkaline phosphatase functions in an
17 alkaline environment, acid phosphatase functions in
18 an acidic environment.
19 Q. Is there a breaking point as measured in
20 terms of pH, say, at 7 or something like that that
21 would indicate one is one category and not the other?
22 A. It depends on which organism particular
23 code of the gene for the alkaline phosphatase that is
24 present. And it is a broad range that the
25 phosphatase functions in. It happens simply to be
252
1 defined more as acidic conditions or alkaline
2 conditions, especially in the extracellular AP.
3 Q. What sorts of things or factors inhibit AP
4 activity?
5 A. Where?
6 Q. Generally.
7 A. Alkaline phosphatase, it is one, if you
8 were to go to the hospital with a liver problem, one
9 of the things that they would measure or even if you
10 go to your doctor's office and have a series of blood
11 tests, one of the things they are going to measure is
12 alkaline phosphatase activity in your serum.
13 So when you say something like alkaline
14 phosphatase, this is what I was getting at, it is
15 overly broad. I am not dealing with it as an
16 ecosystem, just dealing with it as an enzyme. We all
17 have it, everybody has it, and the factors that
18 affect it in your body are not the same.
19 Q. Let's be more specific then. What sorts
20 of things inhibit alkaline phosphatase activity in
21 the Everglades?
22 A. Alkaline phosphatase activity in plant
23 tissues or extracellular from bacteria? In the
24 manner I use alkaline phosphatase? What? You have
25 to define it.
253
1 Q. Let's say first in the manner in which you
2 use alkaline phosphatase.
3 A. Okay. The major controlling factor for
4 alkaline phosphatase activity in the way that I use
5 it would be the availability of phosphorus in the
6 environment.
7 Q. So do you use alkaline phosphatase as a
8 way to monitor phosphorus enrichment?
9 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.
10 A. I would say no.
11 Q. Then what is its relationship to
12 phosphorus?
13 A. It is a way of measuring phosphorus
14 availability in the system.
15 Q. What happens if there is more phosphorus
16 available in the system in terms of alkaline
17 phosphatase activity?
18 A. You have a decrease.
19 Q. And if there is less phosphorus available?
20 A. You have an increase.
21 Q. So if you have a decreased AP activity
22 then you would conclude that there is more phosphorus
23 in the system?
24 A. That there is more available phosphorus in
25 the system.
254
1 Q. So AP is a way to monitor phosphorus
2 enrichment then, isn't it?
3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the
4 question. I think you asked him that and he answered
5 it.
6 A. I had a problem with perhaps a differing
7 in the use of enrichment because I can think of forms
8 of phosphorus that you could enrich an environment
9 with that would not result in a change in alkaline
10 phosphatase activity.
11 Q. What kinds of phosphorus are we confronted
12 with in the Everglades that do result in this
13 decrease in AP activity?
14 A. The forms of phosphorus in the forms of
15 phosphate or orthophosphate, commonly referred to as
16 soluble reactive phosphate would be one form.
17 A number of organic forms of phosphorus
18 which we routinely lump together in the term,
19 quote-unquote, total phosphorus or total dissolved
20 phosphorus.
21 Q. Do you find alkaline phosphatase activity
22 in Everglades soils?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you find that activity there even if
25 there were no living organisms present?
255
1 A. No.
2 Q. Why?
3 A. Alkaline phosphatase is a biologically
4 produced fairly highly genetically, or it is
5 controlled very heavily in its production and it does
6 not have a very long half life in an environment. It
7 is produced by living organisms.
8 Q. I believe you stated yesterday that the
9 Everglades generally is phosphorus limited, is that
10 correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. If that is correct, then why are
13 blue-green algae so common?
14 A. Blue-green algae are a very diverse group
15 of microorganisms. They are found in a number of
16 both polluted and oligotrophic environments.
17 Q. Are you able to differentiate between
18 historic levels of phosphatase activity in Everglades
19 soils versus current levels of alkaline phosphatase
20 activity?
21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.
22 A. In soils?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I do not do much alkaline phosphatase in
25 soils.
256
1 Q. What do you do it in, then?
2 A. Generally in the water column.
3 Q. Is there any connection between the number
4 of bacteria or other microbes in a sample and the
5 measured enzyme activity that you detect in that
6 sample?
7 A. Referring to alkaline phosphatase?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Not necessarily.
10 Q. Would you expect to find a higher biomass
11 if the phosphorus were more available to the
12 microbes?
13 A. Biomass of microbes?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I would expect that would be the case if
16 phosphorus was limiting their production.
17 Q. Was that what you find?
18 A. I haven't examined that in the Everglades
19 ecosystem.
20 Q. What level of AP activity do you consider
21 normal for the soils of the, first of all, the Park?
22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.
23 A. Soils?
24 Q. Strike that.
25 For the water in the Park.
257
1 A. I would have to go back and look at the
2 numbers that we have generated. It is a relative
3 type of a terminology and so I would have to look at
4 some of the graphs that were produced yesterday to
5 give you an idea of that.
6 Q. Did you not look at AP activity in the
7 soils at all in the Park?
8 A. Yes, we have looked at it in the Park.
9 Q. Where is the data that reflects those
10 measurements?
11 A. Somewhere in one of the files. It would
12 have been in the folder from Richany and Jones and
13 Amador of which you presented a very small portion to
14 me yesterday in the production.
15 Q. What is your method for measuring AP
16 activity in water as opposed to soils?
17 A. I believe it is based off of -- you are
18 asking me to do this without a reference paper in
19 front of me. I believe it is a Perry 1974 method
20 using, as I pointed out yesterday,
21 3-orthomethylfluoroscene, phosphate and fluorometric
22 detection.
23 Q. What is the detection limit in that test?
24 A. Offhand, I can't tell you.
25 Q. Do you recall what the holding time was of
258
1 your samples?
2 A. They are analyzed generally within -- they
3 are analyzed within an hour of return to the
4 laboratory and that can depend on whether we are
5 sampling, you know, say, starting 9 in the morning
6 and maybe returning at 2 or 3 in the afternoon so
7 that the holding time would be that period of time.
8 They are analyzed the same day.
9 Q. I would like to show you a document we
10 will label as Exhibit No. 56.
11 MS. PONZOLI: Have we already seen this
12 one, Mr. Hyde?
13 MR. HYDE: I think you probably have.
14 MS. PONZOLI: Do you have copies for us?
15 MR. HYDE: No, I just pulled it out. It
16 is Bates No. 1169750. It has some handwritten notes
17 on them. I don't even know if they are his notes.
18 Take a look at it.
19 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 56 was marked
20 for identification)
21 MS. PONZOLI: I believe these are Dr.
22 Richardson's handwritten notes on the document. Is
23 that accurate, Mr. Hyde?
24 MR. HYDE: I believe so.
25 BY MR. HYDE:
259
1 Q. Dr. Jones, is this one of your documents?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Was this a document you were referring to
4 earlier as being some evidence of AP activity in the
5 Park?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Is this measuring AP activity in the soils
8 or in the water column?
9 A. In the water column.
10 Q. What does this graph indicate to you?
11 A. It indicates that there is an increasing
12 alkaline phosphatase activity as you proceed in a
13 southerly direction from S-12C.
14 Q. What is the significance of that
15 conclusion?
16 A. It would indicate that the communities are
17 less phosphorus limited, perhaps not phosphorus
18 limited, the microbial communities, near the S-12C
19 structure, and that as you proceed down to a distance
20 of approximately 12 kilometers that the communities
21 are more phosphorus limited, the microbial
22 communities are more phosphorus limited.
23 Q. You said this was in the water column?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know what kind of soil conditions
260
1 it was associated with?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was that?
4 A. Depending upon where you are in the
5 transect they vary from organic peat, sawgrass peat
6 soils to marl soils.
7 Q. How do the soils affect the alkaline
8 phosphatase activity, if at all?
9 A. In the water column it didn't seem to have
10 much effect.
11 Q. How would it affect it in the soils, if
12 you know?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Is AP production by microbes, for lack of
15 a better term, an ephemeral process? Do you know
16 what I mean when I say ephemeral process?
17 MS. PONZOLI: Could you read the question
18 back to me, please.
19 (The question referred to was
20 thereupon read by the reporter
21 as above recorded)
22 MS. PONZOLI: I certainly don't.
23 MR. HYDE: I am asking Dr. Jones, not you.
24 MS. PONZOLI: I understand that, but I am
25 going to object to the question since I don't
261
1 understand.
2 A. I would prefer you use a different word
3 than ephemeral, if you could, because I don't use
4 that in the context of microbiology or science. It
5 is more of a term in a novel.
6 Q. Can alkaline phosphatase activity be
7 depressed in a very short period of time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does temperature have any effect on the
10 alkaline phosphatase activity?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How does it have an effect on it?
13 A. The general effect would be that if you
14 incubate the samples at a lower temperature alkaline
15 phosphatase activity would be somewhat depressed
16 depending upon the characteristics of the particular
17 enzyme, at a higher temperature it would be faster.
18 Q. Do you know at what soil phosphorus level
19 we see a change in AP activity?
20 A. No.
21 Q. What about in the water column, at what
22 water phosphorus level do you see a change in AP
23 activity?
24 A. I have the data necessary to make that
25 determination but I have not graphically produced
262
1 that and run any statistics on it at this time.
2 Q. So you just have the raw data, then?
3 A. I have, yes, the raw data.
4 Q. Have you done anything beyond just having
5 the data available to you to derive any meaning from
6 it?
7 A. I looked at it generally, decided it would
8 make an interesting paper and then tried to continue
9 that, and that is, was the reason for those, the
10 series of grid sampling that we did within Everglades
11 National Park and the Water Conservation Area.
12 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Hyde, I sort have been
13 waiting, I didn't want to interrupt your flow of
14 questions but you look like you are getting ready to
15 go on to something new. I want to be clear about
16 Jones No. 56.
17 If you wish to use something like that at
18 trial I am going to ask you to go back to the one
19 that is Dr. Jones' that does not have Dr.
20 Richardson's information written all over it because
21 this is really not Dr. Jones' document any longer, it
22 is sort of a hybrid of our two experts.
23 And so I would move to strike it or to
24 exclude it. So if you need that exhibit for trial
25 for your questions let's locate it right now and
263
1 attach it as 56 A or something.
2 MR. HYDE: Suzan, this is a deposition,
3 this is a deposition exhibit. That's all it is
4 intended for.
5 I don't need to be instructed about how to
6 use exhibits at trial. I think if I wanted to use it
7 with Dr. Richardson's writing on it I could do that
8 too.
9 MS. PONZOLI: I am not waiving my
10 objections to exclude it at that time and I don't
11 want to sandbag you in that way so I made it very
12 clear at this time I object to you using something
13 that is no longer Dr. Jones'.
14 MR. HYDE: Fine, your objection is noted.
15 MS. PONZOLI: So I just move to strike it
16 here, and include the one that really is his, which
17 is already in the record somewhere.
18 BY MR. HYDE:
19 Q. Dr. Jones, when you are looking at AP
20 values in an area can you find totally different AP
21 values from one day to the next?
22 A. I have not observed that in these
23 particular locations.
24 There are some other areas where we look
25 at AP such as Florida Bay, areas that have tidal
264
1 influence where there are drastic changes in the
2 water column and there the answer would be yes.
3 Q. Didn't you agree with my question earlier
4 that AP activity can be depressed within a matter of
5 hours?
6 A. I don't believe you said matter of hours
7 but you said very rapidly or something like that.
8 But I agreed with that, yes.
9 Q. Would you agree that it could be depressed
10 in a matter of hours?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then wouldn't you agree that you could get
13 decidedly different AP values from one day to the
14 next?
15 A. No, I wouldn't. I mean, what you could do
16 in a pure culture in a laboratory is a lot different
17 than what happens in the field.
18 Q. Would rainfall cause any change in AP
19 activity?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. What about when it is a hot day?
22 A. It shouldn't.
23 Q. Are there any compounds present in the
24 water of the Everglades National Park that would
25 inhibit AP activity?
265
1 A. AP activity is measured in the waters of
2 Everglades National Park. If I were to take and
3 extract the enzyme alkaline phosphatase and place it
4 under ideal laboratory conditions, then there may
5 very well likely be parameters in the water that
6 affect the activity of AP.
7 You are asking questions about AP and I am
8 showing you data about alkaline phosphatase activity.
9 Q. I understand that. My question was simply
10 whether there are any compounds present in the water
11 in the Everglades National Park that would inhibit AP
12 activity.
13 A. Meaning that if I were to go to Sigma
14 Science and buy a bottle of alkaline phosphatase from
15 bovine liver extract, that if I were to place it into
16 Everglades National Park water would that be
17 inhibited by certain compounds?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. There is a possibility.
20 Q. Do you know what I mean when I ask whether
21 AP activity is subject to inhibition?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What does that mean?
24 A. Depending on what type of inhibition you
25 are referring to, whether it be competitive
266
1 inhibition or suicidal inhibition or a number of
2 things like that, it generally means it inhibits its
3 activity.
4 Q. Do heavy metals have any effect on AP
5 activity?
6 A. Certain heavy metals can inhibit alkaline
7 phosphatase activity.
8 Q. Which ones?
9 A. Mercury at a certain percentage level will
10 do it, zinc in very high levels, cadmium I know for
11 sure. I don't know of any other heavy metals, those
12 are just ones that have been used in laboratory
13 analysis.
14 Q. Going back to phosphorus concentration in
15 the water column again, have you made any
16 determinations as to what the phosphorus
17 concentration should be in order to see a change in
18 AP activity?
19 A. I believe I indicated that I have a series
20 of data, I know I saw it yesterday, and that I
21 haven't gone through and analyzed that yet.
22 Q. Is AP activity turned on when periphyton
23 need phosphorus?
24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't
25 understand your question.
267
1 Do you understand it, Dr. Jones?
2 A. I understand periphyton, but I can't
3 answer that question because of the fact that
4 periphyton is a nondescript term.
5 Q. Why do you say it is nondescript?
6 A. It is a community of a number of different
7 organisms and if you want to be very precise you have
8 to tell me which particular components of the
9 periphyton. I am assuming community is what you are
10 referring to when you say periphyton.
11 Q. Phytoplankton.
12 A. Phytoplankton, alkaline phosphatase
13 activity, there is a debate as to whether
14 phytoplankton have the ability to produce
15 extracellular alkaline phosphatase. The evidence
16 would indicate they can not.
17 Q. Are there other types of periphyton that
18 can engage in this activity?
19 A. Cyanobacteria perhaps, fungi which may be
20 associated with the periphyton and certainly the
21 bacteria.
22 Q. Let's assume that people or researchers
23 have found high AP activity in water bodies receiving
24 high phosphorus concentrations. What does this mean
25 to you?
268
1 A. It would mean nothing to me until I saw
2 the papers.
3 Q. Does it mean perhaps that other local
4 conditions might be coming into play?
5 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. He
6 answered it. It means nothing to him so he can't
7 speculate beyond that. He has to see the papers.
8 MR. HYDE: I am asking if other local
9 conditions might come into play in influencing that
10 activity.
11 MS. PONZOLI: But he has already said he
12 can't answer without seeing your original premise and
13 he doesn't accept your original premise until he sees
14 the papers.
15 Q. Assume my original premise to be true. Do
16 local --
17 MS. PONZOLI: I don't think he has to
18 assume a fact that he has no knowledge of or
19 understanding of. I don't really think that's what
20 he has to do in this deposition, Mr. Hyde.
21 MR. HYDE: Suzan, I am asking a
22 hypothetical question. It is perfectly admissible.
23 MS. PONZOLI: I don't think your
24 hypothetical question is framed properly, Mr. Hyde.
25 MR. HYDE: Are you instructing him not to
269
1 answer?
2 MS. PONZOLI: Is that a situation that you
3 have any knowledge of, Dr. Jones?
4 THE WITNESS: I have seen papers that have
5 purported that, and under those circumstances the
6 papers have not been talking about alkaline
7 phosphatase in the context that we are speaking of
8 alkaline phosphatase.
9 BY MR. HYDE:
10 Q. In what context are they referring to it?
11 A. They are generally referring to whole cell
12 alkaline phosphatase activity.
13 Q. How does that differ from the current
14 context that we are discussing?
15 A. It would be in the same context that if I
16 were to determine your alkaline phosphatase level I
17 would have to grind up your cells and so therefore
18 how you would respond to excess phosphorus is
19 different than the way bacteria's extracellular
20 alkaline phosphatase responds.
21 MR. GAINES: Why don't we take a five
22 minute break.
23 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
24 after which the following proceedings
25 were had)
270
1 MR. HYDE: Back on the record.
2 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Hyde, would you let the
3 record reflect what we have agreed to?
4 MR. HYDE: We have inserted into the
5 record as substitute Exhibit 56 for Jones, it is
6 simply a clean copy of Bates number 1169750.
7 MS. PONZOLI: Thank you.
8 BY MR. HYDE:
9 Q. Dr. Jones, would you agree that an
10 increase in AP activity is really an indicator of
11 phosphorus deficiency in the system?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Because of the terminology deficiency,
15 what you mean by that. You have to define
16 deficiency.
17 Q. A lack of.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you think that AP values would be
20 significantly different depending on the season?
21 A. There are some seasonal trends in alkaline
22 phosphatase.
23 Q. How would they differ, say, from summer to
24 winter, for example?
25 A. It depends on where you are.
271
1 Q. So location does play a role in what the
2 activity, AP activity is?
3 A. Sure. In northern Canada it is probably
4 pretty low in the winter.
5 Q. Let's confine our comments for now to the
6 Everglades.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. What differences do you see in the
9 Everglades between, say, winter and summer in terms
10 of the AP activity?
11 A. We haven't looked at this particular data
12 set with seasonality. We have other data sets for
13 Florida Bay that we have looked at with seasonality.
14 Q. What does your Florida Bay data reveal to
15 you?
16 A. There is a very minor change between
17 summer and winter.
18 Q. Is there more in the summer or less in the
19 summer?
20 A. It tends to be slightly elevated in the
21 summer.
22 Q. Would you expect that to be true for the
23 Everglades National Park?
24 A. This is alkaline phosphatase in the water?
25 Q. Yes.
272
1 A. The primary controlling factor there would
2 be whether there is water in the winter.
3 Q. Assuming water were present would you
4 expect the AP activity to be greater or lesser as
5 compared to the summer?
6 A. My recollection from the numbers that we
7 have, alkaline phosphatase over a number of seasons,
8 I don't believe that we would find a significant
9 difference because of the size of the data set.
10 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions
11 about your sampling methodology for your AP
12 measurements.
13 A. Certainly.
14 Q. I would like to take you from the field to
15 the laboratory. First of all, tell me how you take
16 the samples in the field.
17 A. The samples are collected by hand in the
18 field. We take a 125 milliliter polyethylene bottle
19 used specifically for the microbiological parameters
20 and the total phosphorus and the total nitrogen,
21 those types of parameters, and collect a bottle by
22 first opening the bottle underneath the water column,
23 rinsing it several times with sample and then moving
24 slowly through the marsh collecting a water sample
25 just below the surface, trying to avoid incorporating
273
1 fish or chunks of periphyton into the sample.
2 Q. Once you have obtained the water sample
3 that you wish to have, what do you do then?
4 A. First off, we obtain generally a minimum
5 of duplicate and generally triplicate of samples,
6 they are then placed in an ice chest cooler at
7 ambient temperature, meaning they are not placed on
8 ice or anything which would alter the microbial
9 activity, and transport it to the laboratory.
10 Q. Do you measure the temperature of the
11 sample in the field?
12 A. The temperature is recorded, the
13 temperature of the water.
14 Q. What happens when you take it back to the
15 laboratory?
16 A. A portion of that sample is distributed
17 into a number of cuvettes which are a device placed
18 under a sampling, a container placed into the
19 spectrofluorometer. The 3-orthomethylfluoroscene
20 along with a buffer called TRIS is added. Samples
21 are incubated generally at 25 degrees centigrade for
22 a period of two hours and then the alkaline
23 phosphatase activity is measured and recorded.
24 Q. Do you measure the temperature of the
25 sample when you get back to the laboratory?
274
1 A. No, we do not.
2 Q. Why do you incubate it at 25 degrees?
3 A. To eliminate any kind of variation
4 introduced by temperature. It is a fairly standard
5 assay technique.
6 Q. How many data sets did you take from the
7 Park regarding this AP activity?
8 A. I don't know for sure. I think somewhere
9 between three and five, in that range.
10 Q. You mean three to five samples?
11 A. No, three to five sampling periods.
12 Q. Of how many sampling stations?
13 A. That would depend upon how much water was
14 in the system at the time.
15 Q. Going back to your lab work, once you have
16 incubated the samples at 25 degrees what do you do
17 then?
18 A. I put them in the fluorometer and measure
19 the orthomethylfluoroscene that has been released.
20 Q. Once you have done that measurement, is
21 that a visual measurement?
22 A. Oh, no, it is done in a
23 spectrofluorometer.
24 Q. How is that measurement reflected in terms
25 of data or computer information?
275
1 A. We get a printout from the machine which
2 is in relative fluorescence units which we have
3 calibrated based on an orthomethylfluoroscene
4 standard.
5 Q. Are those measurements reflected in any of
6 the documents that you provided to us?
7 A. Yes. We saw some yesterday.
8 Q. Are you familiar with a Dr. Lane or Lean,
9 however he says it, L E A N?
10 A. Dr. Lean, yes.
11 Q. Is Dr. Lean associated with the United
12 States team in this litigation?
13 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
14 Q. What is Dr. Lean's specialty?
15 A. Dr. Lean is a remarkable individual. He
16 has a broad background in, I would just have to say
17 aquatic ecology. He has published in a number of
18 areas.
19 Q. Do you consider him an expert in AP
20 activity or, excuse me, AP analysis and data
21 interpretation?
22 A. He and his wife have certainly done a
23 number of alkaline phosphatase measurements.
24 Q. Have you ever discussed your AP analyses
25 in this case with him?
276
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What does he think of them?
3 A. I think you would be better off asking him
4 what he thinks of them.
5 My impression is that he is favorable.
6 Q. Does he agree with you that AP is a
7 reliable indicator of phosphorus?
8 A. In the Everglades system?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In reference to your phosphatase activity
12 graphs, what are the units of measurement that you
13 are discussing there?
14 A. I answered that yesterday.
15 Q. Could you just refresh my recollection?
16 A. In relative fluorescence units.
17 Q. Can they be expressed in terms of
18 micromolers?
19 A. No, because that would be the
20 inappropriate unit.
21 Q. Why is it inappropriate?
22 A. Micromolers, micromoles is a quantity but
23 you have to talk about an activity, you have to have
24 some expression of time or whatever.
25 Q. Could it be expressed in terms of
277
1 micromoles per liter per hour?
2 A. Micromoles of? It could be. Those are a
3 unit minus a distinguishing character like of
4 phosphorus release per liter per hour, certainly.
5 Q. But you haven't chosen to do that?
6 A. I do with all of the other stuff. This
7 stuff is produced in 1990.
8 Q. So the information you have produced since
9 that time is in that other format?
10 A. You could take this information and
11 multiply it by a number and come up with that. I
12 mean, they are relative fluorescence units, the same
13 calibration has been used throughout.
14 Q. Returning now to Exhibit 55 and the bullet
15 points under the heading, specifically the third
16 bullet point, the final factor in that third bullet
17 point is cattail expansion along the L-67 extension.
18 What are you referring to there?
19 A. The L-67 extended is a canal heading south
20 along the or from the Tamiami Trail into the interior
21 of Shark River Slough. And there are cattails that
22 have invaded in that particular area.
23 Q. How have they invaded, along the canal
24 banks?
25 A. I wouldn't call it a bank. There is a
278
1 bank on one side, a levee on one side that is high
2 enough to drive down and on the other side where the
3 water flows out of the L-67 the cattails have invaded
4 in that particular area.
5 Q. Is the invasion just along the courses or
6 along the course of the canal or is it away from the
7 canal as well?
8 A. It is also in some appreciable distance
9 west from the boundary of the canal.
10 Q. How far?
11 A. I can't answer that.
12 Q. Is it more than just a few feet, say more
13 than 50 feet, for example?
14 A. In some instances, yes.
15 Q. In most instances, no?
16 A. I don't care to guess at what that is. I
17 mean, there is photography available that would show
18 that.
19 Q. Is this information garnered from your own
20 personal observation of the area?
21 A. It is from my own personal observation of
22 the area along with examination of various low level
23 photographs, airplane photography, whatever.
24 Q. Is it based on any vegetative mapping of
25 that area?
279
1 A. No.
2 Q. Moving down now to the fourth point there,
3 which reads, hydroperiod variations can not account
4 for all of the displacement of native species and the
5 damage to the periphyton and macrophyte communities
6 throughout the EPA.
7 I note in the first line that you say that
8 hydroperiod variations can not account for all of the
9 displacement. Does that mean that hydroperiod
10 variations do account for some of the displacement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you quantify that?
13 A. An example I can give you would be the
14 flooding of hardwood hammock tree islands and the
15 change in vegetation that occurs when you flood out
16 these more upland species.
17 Q. Can hydroperiod variations account for
18 other changes that have occurred in these vegetative
19 communities in the EPA?
20 A. I am sure they can.
21 Q. Do hydroperiod variations assist at all in
22 the establishment of a cattail community?
23 A. They could.
24 MS. PONZOLI: I think that has been asked
25 and answered.
280
1 Q. Let me back up just for a moment to the
2 L-67 canal.
3 Do you recall how close the cattail
4 communities are to the structures?
5 A. Which structures?
6 Q. 12C structures.
7 A. Well, 12C is quite far away, a couple of
8 miles at least.
9 Q. Are the cattail communities that you find
10 in the Park generally closer to the structures and
11 the disturbed areas?
12 A. Closer to the structures?
13 Q. Yes.
14 MS. PONZOLI: And the disturbed areas?
15 A. And the disturbed areas.
16 MS. PONZOLI: It is a multiple question.
17 A. Not necessarily.
18 Q. What would be an example of a not
19 necessarily?
20 A. The end of the L-67 extended.
21 Q. Is that an area of disturbance, though,
22 just from the construction of the canal system there?
23 A. I don't believe it is but I am not certain
24 of that.
25 Q. Let's refer to the following sentence in
281
1 that bullet point here, you say that this is founded
2 on data collections and analysis from ENP and LNWR
3 transects.
4 Are those the same transects that we were
5 discussing yesterday or are they different ones?
6 A. They are the same.
7 Q. The second category is WCA-3A data
8 analysis. I believe that is a new category. What
9 are you referring to there?
10 A. The transect into Water Conservation Area
11 3A, also a number of maybe, just a single document
12 from the South Florida Water Management District
13 discussing the hydrologic impacts in Water
14 Conservation Area 3A.
15 Q. Do you recall who the author of that
16 document is?
17 A. I am sorry, I do not.
18 Q. Do you recall the title of that document?
19 A. I do not.
20 Q. This transect into 3A, is this something
21 that you performed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where was it performed within that Water
24 Conservation Area?
25 A. North of the S-12C structure.
282
1 Q. What was the purpose of locating that
2 transect there?
3 A. I answered that yesterday.
4 Q. I don't recall that we discussed it in any
5 great detail but if you could just refresh my
6 recollection as to why you located it in that area.
7 A. To examine the potential effects of
8 disturbance by the construction of the Tamiami Trail
9 and associated canals.
10 Q. What did that transect reveal to you?
11 Reveal?
12 A. That there was little or very limited
13 damage due to nutrients north into Water Conservation
14 Area 3A.
15 Q. When you speak of damage, what were you
16 referring to?
17 A. Elevated soil levels, decreased alkaline
18 phosphatase activity and vegetative changes.
19 Q. What kind of vegetative changes?
20 A. In this case both the presence of cattails
21 and other species that tend to do well in high
22 phosphorus and also morphological changes in the
23 sawgrass and the other more common native species.
24 Q. In the course of doing your transects did
25 you see any evidence of any disturbances up there
283
1 such as fire, drought or anything else that might
2 have caused a perturbation in that area?
3 A. During this time that entire area has
4 burnt. There have been frosts, we have had droughts,
5 we have had flooded periods. I think the whole gamut
6 of natural disturbances has occurred in this area.
7 Q. Did you see evidence of burning along your
8 transect?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What kind of burn was it, just a small
11 localized burn or part of a bigger more regionwide
12 area?
13 A. During the drought period we had some very
14 extensive burns throughout the Water Conservation
15 Areas and Everglades National Park. Since then there
16 have been smaller burns. Prior to that there were
17 smaller burns. So I think again the types of fires
18 that have been experienced in this particular area
19 ranged the whole gamut.
20 Q. And you saw no evidence of any
21 displacement of or transition in the macrophyte
22 communities as a result of those burns?
23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.
24 A. Where?
25 Q. Along your transect lines.
284
1 A. In 3A?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. No.
4 Q. You are also referring to here data
5 derived from Refuge bird rookeries and field
6 observations.
7 Do you intend those to be two separate
8 things or data derived from -- does that mean data
9 derived from LNWR bird rookeries and then field
10 observations related to those rookeries or two
11 separate categories?
12 A. They would be two separate categories.
13 Q. Let's deal with the first category then.
14 What data did you derive from the Refuge bird
15 rookeries?
16 A. An examination was made to look at the
17 effects of bird rookeries on vegetation, total
18 phosphorus in the soil, alkaline phosphatase activity
19 in the water and total phosphorus levels in the water
20 associated with bird rookeries within Loxahatchee
21 National Wildlife Refuge.
22 Q. Is this the data that we discussed
23 yesterday?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. What did this reveal to you?
285
1 A. That in the absence of or in areas that
2 have similar hydrology, in the absence of a source of
3 phosphorus such as a bird rookery there are not
4 elevated levels of phosphorus or decreased levels of
5 alkaline phosphatase associated with downstream areas
6 of bird or -- of islands in Loxahatchee.
7 Q. Isn't that sort of a tautology in terms of
8 just looking at the elevated soil phosphorus
9 concentrations, in other words, wouldn't you expect
10 there to be elevated soil concentrations of
11 phosphorus next to a bird rookery?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So there is nothing particularly
14 surprising about that conclusion?
15 A. Oh, no.
16 Q. Then I am having a hard time understanding
17 what significance you draw from that fact?
18 A. That's in the control areas where there
19 were no elevated levels of phosphorus, there were no
20 cattails.
21 Q. How does your information regarding AP
22 activity relate to that study?
23 A. Alkaline phosphatase activity was
24 decreased closer to the source of phosphorus and
25 increased further away, further downstream.
286
1 Q. Dr. Jones, have you done any experiments
2 yourself in the Everglades ecosystem?
3 A. I don't know what you mean by an
4 experiment.
5 Q. Field experiments.
6 A. Such as?
7 Q. Such as a dosing study or anything like
8 that.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Your final category here is field
11 observations. Can you just elucidate for me in
12 summary fashion what these field observations are?
13 A. I spent a considerable amount of time on
14 the ground, in my airboat, flying over the Everglades
15 just examining the system. And one of the things
16 that I noticed, actually one of the things that I
17 didn't notice before all this came about was I didn't
18 notice cattails in this system. It is almost an
19 inconspicuous portion of the Everglades system.
20 So one of the things that you then become
21 attuned to is wherever you see a cattail you would
22 try and notice what is it associated with. And it
23 turns out that a lot of these vegetative changes
24 including the periphyton and other macrophytes tend
25 to be associated with elevated phosphorus levels in
287
1 the soil or areas that you would assume to have
2 elevated phosphorus levels in the soil and not
3 necessarily representing different hydroperiods.
4 Q. Do you see cattails everywhere that you
5 find elevated levels of phosphorus in the soils?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do cattails require elevated levels of
8 phosphorus in the soil to survive in that ecosystem?
9 A. It depends on whether we are talking
10 survive or thrive.
11 Q. Let's say thrive.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. They require elevated levels of phosphorus
14 in the soil to thrive?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you identify for me any areas where
17 cattails currently thrive in the Everglades ecosystem
18 that are not also characterized by some man-made
19 disturbance?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you identify what those are?
22 A. Bird rookeries, alligator holes, areas
23 where there have been, areas generally immediately
24 downstream of streak muck fires where, say, for
25 instance, a tree island has been burnt out, there has
288
1 been evidence of cattails in those particular areas.
2 Mostly some sort of a natural disturbance.
3 Q. But the cattail in all these regards
4 except for, say, the bird islands are all associated
5 with some form of disturbance, would that be correct?
6 A. They are all associated with elevated
7 levels of phosphorus.
8 Q. Let me ask the question from a different
9 perspective, then.
10 Identify for me areas that are, where
11 cattails thrive that are not characterized both by
12 elevated soil phosphorus and by disturbance in some
13 form.
14 A. I am not aware of any. I take that back.
15 I could think of the example perhaps along the
16 estuarine margin where the marine environment meets
17 the freshwater Everglades. There is an ability of
18 certain species of cattail to outcompete sawgrass or
19 some of the other freshwater organisms in the
20 presence of high salt. They usually also have higher
21 levels of phosphorus associated with or higher levels
22 of available phosphorus associated with them also but
23 there is an estuarine fringe in this environment
24 also.
25 Q. That is somewhat removed from our
289
1 discussion?
2 A. It is somewhat removed, that's why I
3 didn't bring it in to begin with but that does exist
4 in the Everglades.
5 Q. The next bullet point reads, "Bacteria are
6 the first to show measurable effects of nutrient
7 loading and any alteration of the bacterial community
8 will cause adverse changes in the rate/type of
9 processes occurring in the ecosystem."
10 Why are bacteria the first to show these
11 measurable effects?
12 A. Mainly because of their ability to respond
13 rapidly. Their growth times can be, I think the
14 record now is a cell dividing in two and a half
15 minutes so they can respond very rapidly.
16 Q. When we are talking about bacteria here
17 what specifically are we referring to?
18 A. That is a big question. Bacteria are a
19 whole group of organisms to themselves, a whole
20 kingdom, if you will, of organisms. By numbers, they
21 are the dominant organism in the world.
22 Q. You also say that any alteration of the
23 bacterial community will cause adverse changes in the
24 rate and type of processes occurring in the
25 ecosystem.
290
1 What do you mean by alteration in that
2 context?
3 A. In this it is also the alteration of the
4 bacterial community, not saying the alteration of a
5 specific group of bacteria but rather the community
6 of bacteria. We touched on that a little bit
7 yesterday with the shift, say, for instance, again
8 aerobic and anaerobic metabolism and that is what I
9 am referring to in this circumstance or similar types
10 of shifts.
11 Q. So you would admit that the bacterial
12 community naturally goes through some rather severe
13 fluctuations and that's not the sort of thing that
14 you are referring to here?
15 A. I would say that that is an area that is
16 under a great deal of study at the moment.
17 Microbiology and that aspect is not well defined. It
18 is very, very difficult to study these organisms on
19 an autecology level where you study the individuals
20 because of their size. We have been talking about
21 microscopic organisms. You can't tag them and count
22 them.
23 Q. But what you are really looking to here is
24 a shift from aerobic to anaerobic as opposed to just
25 shifts within the compositions of the bacterial
291
1 community?
2 A. Well, not necessarily. If a critical
3 component or any component of this bacterial
4 community that has a role in carbon cycling is
5 altered and that role is changed, it is going to have
6 a trickle up effect or trickle down, whichever way
7 you want to look at it.
8 Q. We have identified in the course of this
9 deposition this transition from aerobic to anaerobic
10 bacteria. What other transitions might there be
11 occurring in this bacterial community that are having
12 these adverse changes?
13 A. Utilization of different forms of carbon.
14 Q. How is that occurring?
15 A. Certain forms of carbon become more
16 available in the presence of higher levels of
17 phosphorus.
18 Q. Is that another way of saying you will
19 have increased biomass as a result of increased
20 levels of phosphorus?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Explain to me the significance of these
23 increased levels of carbon.
24 A. I said the way carbon is cycled, I didn't
25 say increase the carbon.
292
1 Q. Okay, the way it is cycled.
2 A. A carbon compound that contains no
3 phosphorus in the absence of phosphorus would not be
4 able to be utilized by these microorganisms.
5 Therefore, if you add the phosphorus they would then
6 be able to utilize that form of carbon.
7 Q. What is the significance of that fact?
8 A. It is very significant.
9 Q. So they can utilize this carbon, what does
10 that mean?
11 A. I guess the simplest example would be if
12 microorganisms weren't capable of utilizing cellulose
13 we would be up to our, we would be up at the top of
14 this building buried in cellulose.
15 Q. I am trying to determine how this, these
16 kinds of changes are having adverse impacts in this
17 Everglades ecosystem. So could you relate that to
18 how these changes other than the transition from
19 aerobic to anaerobic are having some adverse impacts
20 on the Everglades ecosystem?
21 A. The ecosystem is defined by its base, from
22 this standpoint, aside from whether it is a wetland
23 or whether, what its geology is or anything else like
24 that but from its true ecological considerations the
25 base of almost all ecosystems, and probably all
293
1 ecosystems are their microbial communities. And so
2 any change that you make in that changes fundamental
3 components of the system.
4 Q. That sounds to me like a rather grand
5 biological theory. I would like to know how
6 specifically changes in the Everglades bacterial
7 community other than this shift from aerobic to
8 anaerobic bacteria is having an adverse change in
9 that ecosystem.
10 MS. PONZOLI: Objection, argumentative.
11 A. I am sorry to sound grandiose or whatever,
12 but that's just the fact of the matter.
13 Q. Is there any specific evidence of these
14 adverse impacts? What are the symptoms?
15 A. You go from an anaerobic to -- or aerobic
16 to anaerobic system; you have different forms of
17 carbon available to cycle throughout the rest of the
18 system, therefore you have a whole different system
19 developing under those circumstances.
20 Q. I understand that. We discussed at length
21 the shift from aerobic to anaerobic. What other
22 types of shifts are occurring?
23 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered, Mr.
24 Hyde.
25 MR. HYDE: It has been asked repeatedly,
294
1 it has not been answered.
2 MS. PONZOLI: We have a difference of
3 opinion. I already object to you arguing with the
4 witness. He can continue to try to answer but I
5 think you will reach badgering at some point.
6 Q. Are there any specific symptoms that you
7 see occurring in the Everglades ecosystem that are
8 associated with bacterial community changes other
9 than this shift from aerobic to anaerobic bacteria?
10 MS. PONZOLI: I think your question
11 presumes that you can separate that out and looking
12 at the symptoms.
13 A. I view that shift as a fundamental basic
14 change in the system. It is my opinion that a system
15 based on aerobic metabolism of carbon compound and a
16 system that is based on the anaerobic metabolism of
17 carbon compounds are not the same system.
18 Q. So I guess the long and short of it is
19 that you are not able to point out to me any other
20 changes?
21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the
22 question. That doesn't mean your question can be
23 answered the way you keep asking it. You are just
24 assuming it can be answered.
25 Q. Dr. Jones, I think you said earlier that
295
1 there were other alterations in the bacterial
2 community other than shifts from aerobic to
3 anaerobic. Is that correct or not?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. What are these other shifts?
6 A. I indicated to you that a lot of these
7 shifts have to do with the way carbon is cycled in
8 the system, the way nitrogen is cycled in the system,
9 the way sulfur is cycled in the system, the way iron
10 is cycled in the system.
11 Q. Didn't you connect those changes to the
12 shift from aerobic to anaerobic bacteria?
13 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to the
14 whole line of questioning, Mr. Hyde. As I am
15 understanding your questions and his answers, you
16 want to separate out parts of this system that can
17 not be separated out and observe changes. So your
18 questions can not really be answered the way you want
19 them answered and you continue to ask them in the
20 same way.
21 Q. Can you answer my question?
22 A. No, I can not.
23 Q. Dr. Jones, are anaerobic conditions normal
24 in the Everglades?
25 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.
296
1 A. If you ask me that in its most simplistic
2 way the answer is yes.
3 Q. Do you need anaerobic conditions to build
4 up peat?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Are anaerobic bacteria not found in the
7 Everglades normally during the wet season?
8 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered.
9 A. Anaerobic bacteria are found everywhere in
10 the Everglades.
11 Q. That would be true of so-called enriched
12 areas as opposed to unenriched areas?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You state that this opinion in this regard
15 is based on AP analysis of Everglades water and
16 review of the scientific literature.
17 In your previous supplemental summary, I
18 believe that was Exhibit 54, you also included, and
19 soil samples there, is that correct?
20 MS. PONZOLI: You have to look at 54.
21 MR. NIEGO: I object to the form. He
22 stated that he didn't prepare it and you said "you
23 also included."
24 (Pause)
25 A. That sentence was a very awkward sentence
297
1 and the major change I made was the word soil
2 samples. It was sufficient to say AP because as I
3 have indicated earlier, the alkaline phosphatase
4 activity is predominantly a water column measurement.
5 Q. So soil samples don't really play any
6 basis in the foundation for this opinion?
7 A. Not my particular soil samples, no.
8 Q. Someone else's soil samples?
9 A. The literature.
10 Q. Which literature are you referring to?
11 A. There are a number of scientific
12 publications that deal with effects of soil alkaline
13 phosphatase and acid phosphatase activities.
14 Q. Are there some authors that you could
15 point me out to?
16 A. Not at the moment. Going back looking at
17 the paper on alkaline phosphatase.
18 Q. Would they be referenced in your paper?
19 A. They would be referenced in a number of
20 publications.
21 Q. Would they be referenced in any of your
22 particular publications?
23 A. They are referenced in at least one
24 document that was produced with my stuff. I don't
25 remember if it was produced as an exhibit.
298
1 Q. A while ago I asked you a series of
2 questions about how you went about measuring AP
3 activity in the water column. I would like to ask
4 you some specific questions now about how you measure
5 phosphorus in the soil.
6 First of all, do you consider yourself a
7 soil scientist?
8 A. Soil is a terminology that is generally
9 applied to a more agrarian, agronomic type of study.
10 I deal a lot with sediments. A number of people have
11 corrected me on that because if you want to do things
12 like drain the Everglades apparently you can plant
13 sugar cane on them and therefore they are soils. I
14 prefer to think of the Everglades containing
15 sediments but it is a matter of semantics at that
16 time.
17 So I would consider myself to be a
18 biogeochemist or aquatic ecologist, and the sediment
19 or soil fraction of that is an important thing but I
20 wouldn't define myself in the traditional sense as a
21 soil scientist because that is an agronomic term. I
22 am having more to do with those types of areas.
23 Q. I would like you to take me through the
24 same process we went through before, that is how you
25 take a sample of, a soil sample that you are going to
299
1 measure for phosphorus in the field, take it through
2 the laboratory process, okay?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. First of all, what do you do you when you
5 go out to the field to take your sample?
6 A. We generally go out by helicopter, land in
7 an area.
8 I sampled predominantly two different
9 types of areas when they were present, those would be
10 open water areas which as I indicated yesterday have
11 an E usually associated with them, and sawgrass
12 dominated areas which have an S associated with them.
13 Go out and collect a series of samples,
14 either using two inch PVC cores or collected by hand,
15 composite a collection of between three and five
16 cores or grab samples, mix those samples in a
17 container to homogenize them to some extent, picking
18 out plant roots, snails, rocks, various types of
19 debris that would alter the -- that are not
20 representative of the soil, place those, a portion of
21 that into a polyethylene specimen cup and repeat that
22 between two and three times for each of the
23 particular areas within that site for both the open
24 water and the sawgrass areas.
25 Then transport them back to the
300
1 laboratory.
2 Q. Let's back up just for a moment. How
3 specifically do you collect soil samples of soil that
4 is under the water? Does the fact of the water have
5 any, come to affect at all your collection effort?
6 A. It makes it difficult.
7 Q. What if there are plants there as well, do
8 you pull them out of the way or what do you try to do
9 to ensure you are just getting a good sample of soil
10 as opposed to other things like plants or other
11 vegetative matter that doesn't really belong there?
12 A. The plant density is not generally, except
13 for in the impacted areas as, so dense that you can't
14 find areas between tricomes where you can collect a
15 sample without coring through a plant.
16 Q. What do you do with the soil samples once
17 you -- do you put them in a cooler to take them back
18 to the lab?
19 A. Yes, they are placed in a cooler.
20 Q. Is that kept at ambient temperatures?
21 A. They are kept at ambient temperature.
22 Q. And then I presume at that point you take
23 them back to a lab?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How quickly do you do your lab test after
301
1 you have done your field sampling?
2 A. The samples are immediately placed into a
3 drying oven so as soon as we get back to the
4 laboratory they are dried at 80 degrees centigrade.
5 Q. What happens at that point?
6 A. They take them out of the oven, allow them
7 to cool, grind them, grind the entire sample, mix it
8 and then take an aliquot of that or a portion of that
9 and put it into a glass scintillation vial where it
10 is labeled, cataloged and stored and then we do the
11 various analyses from that homogenized sample.
12 Q. How do you grind the soil?
13 A. We use what is referred to as a Wiley
14 mill.
15 Q. Could you describe for me what a Wiley
16 mill is?
17 A. It is a very expensive meat grinder.
18 Sorry, there.
19 It is another one of these scientific
20 instruments that costs an awful lot more than it
21 should.
22 It is nothing more than a grinder, a
23 spinning blade that, and a screen that will grind a
24 sample to various mesh sizes.
25 Q. How do you differentiate between soil
302
1 samples or sediment samples, whatever you want to
2 call them that are based on PVC cores and those which
3 are based on your hand samples?
4 A. We did a number of different studies to
5 see what the top -- we have done cores throughout the
6 whole column and looked at phosphorus with depth and
7 a number of those.
8 But we initially collected all of our
9 samples by the two inch course. And the time
10 involved in collecting those types of samples and
11 compositing them became prohibitive in trying to get
12 20 or 30 stations done in a days. So we did an
13 experiment where we compared coring with grabbed
14 samples and found no significant difference. In
15 fact, we found no difference at all mathematically
16 significant between the two different techniques.
17 We have continued to still collect core
18 samples on occasion when we can and we use grab
19 samples when that is not available.
20 Q. Can you describe for me the process by
21 which you collect a hand sample?
22 A. Sure. Generally going out into the
23 environment and simply grabbing a handful of
24 sediment, placing it into the plastic container and
25 repeating that between three and five times, mixing
303
1 up the sample.
2 It is very often you will see in the
3 literature where people have referred to grab samples
4 versus core samples and that's essentially all they
5 are referring to.
6 Q. You referred a moment ago to I guess a
7 test that you or your associates ran to ensure that
8 the hand samples were the same as the PVC samples.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is there any data for that comparison
11 process?
12 A. I believe so, yes.
13 Q. Where is that data?
14 A. I believe it was produced. I am not sure
15 it was in these documents. Again, it was in one of
16 those folders. I also have data from the entry to
17 the EAA where we did both cores and grab samples and
18 I also have grab samples compared to the cores taken
19 by the Sugar Cane League's entry into the Park.
20 Q. Did you engage in any statistical analysis
21 when you were comparing these two types of sampling
22 methodologies?
23 A. Yes. It was rather unnecessary, though.
24 Q. In doing your hand samples how do you
25 determine bulk density?
304
1 A. We don't utilize bulk density to a great
2 extent. We have determined bulk density on the soils
3 on different occasions utilizing samples collected
4 using cored samples. Bulk density when you are using
5 the term as we have done it as micrograms per gram is
6 not a consideration.
7 Q. This data comparing the two methods of
8 sampling, is it found in the documents that were
9 turned over about a year ago as well as the documents
10 that you turned over, say, a week or so ago?
11 A. It would have been in the documents a year
12 ago.
13 Q. A year ago, okay.
14 Could you describe that documentation, how
15 I might find it or how I might identify it?
16 A. I believe there is the word core on top of
17 a number of the sheets.
18 Q. Does that information have any other
19 distinguishing characteristics?
20 A. I don't believe so.
21 Q. If it does not say core, is it safe to
22 assume that you just got a hand sample?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Then how do you differentiate between the
25 two?
305
1 A. I would believe Dan Scheidt's field notes
2 may very well indicate those because I know that the
3 first series of samples collected along the transect
4 were all done with cores.
5 Q. When you are doing your sampling whether
6 by core or by hand, how do you know where your sample
7 is taken? Do you keep records of that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does the soil vary from place to place
10 along a gradient that you might be taking there?
11 A. I am sorry, I am unclear.
12 Q. I am unclear too. Let me think.
13 Does soil vary along a gradient?
14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.
15 A. I am sorry, I am still having problems
16 with, I don't know what you mean, along the gradient.
17 Q. Does soil vary from place to place?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So it is very important to keep precise
20 records of where you took the data?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In terms of your analytical methods, that
23 is not the right term but in terms of your laboratory
24 analyses, what type of digestion process do you
25 utilize?
306
1 A. We use a modification of a method from the
2 manual for analysis of soils and a paper in limnology
3 and oceanography and I can't think of the name of the
4 authors right offhand. It would be in one of my
5 references, the methodology is described in a paper
6 that you have and actually is in later on in these
7 exhibits. But it is essentially a high temperature
8 ashing and then a hydrolysis of the resulting
9 orthophosphate and then using standard methods to
10 analyze that orthophosphate.
11 Q. When you say standard methods, what are
12 you referring to?
13 A. There is a manual actually called Standard
14 Methods of Water and Wastewater Analysis or EPA's
15 manual and we are essentially using the same type of
16 techniques outlined in those manuals.
17 Q. Does your lab have a QA/QC program?
18 A. It has a QA/QC protocol for our
19 laboratory.
20 Q. What is that? Is it found in a particular
21 document?
22 A. We have a document that we produced.
23 Generally analytical laboratories at the university
24 level don't undergo the same type of procedures that
25 the contract laboratories in the State of Florida or
307
1 anywhere else do for certification. It is not very,
2 it is not important that our results are comparable
3 with the sewage treatment plant in Fort Pierce.
4 It is important that our results are
5 comparable with the other scientists in the community
6 throughout the world. And we tend to use a different
7 type of protocol. We tend to be much stricter than
8 the contract laboratories would be.
9 Q. Have you produced for us that QA/QC
10 protocol for your lab?
11 A. I am certain it was amongst my documents.
12 Q. How would it have been identified other
13 than by those terms?
14 A. I believe that would be pretty
15 characteristic of what it says it is.
16 Q. Would that have been produced with your
17 previous production back in 1993?
18 A. I believe so.
19 Q. Have you been certified in this area?
20 A. Again, certification is a characteristic
21 that is used for the contract laboratories. We are
22 in the process now of doing some projects under the
23 SWIM plan which will require us to have a DEP
24 approved plan and we are in the process of preparing
25 that document at the moment. For the work that I
308
1 have done in the past, certification is not required,
2 although my laboratory has operated under both EPA
3 certification and DER certification in the past for
4 certain analyses that we have made. We do not
5 routinely keep that status running because by law
6 being an official agency of the State of Florida we
7 are not supposed to be competing with CH2M Hill or
8 John's company for business to do routine water
9 quality analysis.
10 MR. HYDE: Why don't we take another short
11 break here.
12 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
13 after which the following proceedings
14 were had)
15 MR. HYDE: Back on the record.
16 BY MR. HYDE:
17 Q. Dr. Jones, I would like to ask you a few
18 cleanup questions about your sampling methodology.
19 I believe you stated a while ago that you
20 did not measure bulk density when doing so, is that
21 correct?
22 A. No, I said we measured bulk density using
23 samples collected from cores.
24 Q. But you don't use bulk density when it
25 comes to your hand samples, is that correct?
309
1 A. I am not saying that we don't -- I am
2 saying -- what I said was that the representation of
3 total phosphorus in micrograms per gram is not a unit
4 that takes into account bulk density. I did not say
5 we did not measure bulk density.
6 Q. Do you measure bulk density at all with
7 your hand samples?
8 A. We have measured relative density of the
9 sample. I would hesitate to call it bulk density
10 because of the specific terminology that that invokes
11 in especially the soil scientist's mind. Density on
12 the other hand of the soils we did measure. I just
13 would not use the term bulk density because of its
14 specific nature to the soil scientists.
15 Q. How do you compare different soil types
16 then between your hand samples and your core samples?
17 A. Between a hand sample and a core sample
18 the soil type is the same.
19 Q. How would you compare a hand sample of
20 marl to a hand sample of peat?
21 A. That comparison is a comparison that we
22 have not made at the moment. We have distinguished
23 between samples that contain peat which are
24 predominantly peat soils versus soils which are
25 predominantly marl and we have left that distinction
310
1 separate because it's a apples comparing with oranges
2 type of a scenario.
3 Q. You said you engage in some sort of
4 density determination in your hand samples, maybe not
5 a bulk density one but still a density type of
6 determination, is that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. How do you do this? I would like you to
9 be as specific as possible.
10 A. The volume of the sample collected ends up
11 being in a cup of a sample of a known volume, that's
12 measured, weighed and upon drying it is weighed
13 again. And the difference would be the density of
14 that particular sample per unit, per unit volume.
15 Q. So you take your hand sample, whatever it
16 is and then stick it in this cup up to a certain
17 level and that's the unit of measurement for you?
18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. That
19 wasn't his answer, Mr. Hyde, not at all.
20 A. The cups are graduated and we make a
21 measurement off of what is on them, by the
22 graduations on there and get an estimate of what the
23 density is. It is not a figure that we have or it is
24 not a calculation that we have used to a great
25 extent.
311
1 There are certain analyses where it is
2 very important to know what the bulk density is.
3 This particular analysis is not one of those.
4 Q. When you place the matter in this
5 measuring cup, do you just drop it in loose or do you
6 densely pack it?
7 A. It is just dropped in, it is not packed in
8 any way, shape or form.
9 Q. So you don't tamp it down?
10 A. I wouldn't call it tamping down. It is
11 placed in the cup and again bulk density is not
12 something, density is not something that we would pay
13 a lot of attention to.
14 Q. When you engage in the act of picking up
15 the sample by hand wouldn't you necessarily squeeze
16 the soil a bit and thereby changes its density?
17 A. You can make some minor changes. The
18 calculations that we have compared to where we made
19 actual bulk density changes versus these, those would
20 be in, the changes in density would, if my memory
21 serves me, would be in the range of somewhere between
22 two or four percent, the difference between the two
23 types of samples.
24 Q. I believe you stated yesterday that you
25 sampled to a depth of ten centimeters, is that
312
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How do you know that you have achieved a
4 ten centimeter depth when you are just employing your
5 hand sampling modality?
6 A. The reason the ten centimeters was
7 determined was actually based when we sampled with
8 cores we would sample at every two centimeter
9 intervals. By taking a ruler, I am the person who
10 has done all the soil samples myself, I collected
11 every soil sample analyzed under these circumstances,
12 so it is basically knowing what ten centimeters is,
13 is that (indicating), and that's why I said zero to
14 ten centimeters. But that's based also on
15 comparison, the cores were actually sectioned between
16 one and two centimeter intervals.
17 Q. I would like to refer now to Exhibit No.
18 53, that is your declaration.
19 (Pause)
20 Q. Just as a final series of questions about
21 your hand sampling, what percentage of recovery do
22 you get from your soil phosphorus analysis?
23 A. Percentage recovery of phosphorus that
24 would be in the soil?
25 Q. Yes.
313
1 A. You can't base that on the soil itself but
2 comparing it to, again, like I said I don't believe
3 what NBS turned into, National Bureau of Standards,
4 comparing it to reference materials it would appear
5 our sampling recovery is somewhere between 98 and 102
6 percent.
7 Q. Now do you know that?
8 A. By digesting these reference materials in
9 the same manner or by spiking a sample with a known
10 quantity of the reference material and determining
11 what you recover from it.
12 Q. What standards again do you say that you
13 employ here?
14 A. Under this circumstance we would be using
15 the NBS orchard leaves which are the citrus leaves
16 and then we also use our referenced material which
17 were the Anona leaves that I talked about yesterday.
18 Q. Referring now to Exhibit No. 53, I believe
19 it is safe to say that a lot of the opinions that are
20 expressed in this document are really the same as
21 those that were already expressed in your
22 supplemental summary. So I am going to try to just
23 focus on those areas that appear to be different in
24 Exhibit 53.
25 I would like you to turn to page 3 of that
314
1 document, numbered paragraph 5. In the first
2 sentence it reads, "All ecosystems have an intrinsic
3 capacity to handle fluctuations in phosphorus levels
4 which depends on many factors, such as water flow,
5 sediment composition, historical phosphorus loads
6 and, most important, microbial mineralization and
7 remineralization processes."
8 Can you describe generally what you mean
9 by that expressed opinion there?
10 (Pause)
11 A. Could you be a little more specific about,
12 I read this sentence and to me it seems
13 self-explanatory and so therefore I really would
14 prefer to have the more specific questions, if you
15 could.
16 Q. I will try that. Are fluctuations in
17 phosphorus levels a natural part of just about any
18 ecosystem?
19 A. Static situations are very rare in natural
20 systems. Sometimes the fluctuations are at levels
21 where our analytical capabilities are pressed to
22 their limits. So what may appear to be a stasis or a
23 static level is actually an artifact of the ability
24 to analyze for that particular component.
25 Q. How does water flow affect an ecosystem's
315
1 capacity to handle fluctuations in phosphorus levels?
2 A. I think the best example would be to use
3 something like a river where if the flow -- if you
4 have a constant concentration of phosphorus in the
5 water column and the flow of that is very, very rapid
6 across a surface, you would have, the surface would
7 take up that phosphorus in a different manner than it
8 would if the flow were relatively slow across that
9 same surface.
10 Q. Let's direct your attention in this regard
11 to the Park. If you know, how would water flow into
12 the Park affect that ecosystem's capacity to handle
13 fluctuations and phosphorus levels?
14 A. In this case, the Park water would be both
15 the delivery and removal mechanism for phosphorus in
16 the system.
17 Q. Does the volume of water in the system
18 have any impact on the system's capacity to handle
19 these phosphorus fluctuations?
20 A. In that the volume and flow are related
21 and volume and the total quantity or mass of
22 phosphorus in the system are related, the answer
23 would be yes.
24 Q. Does the depth of the water in that
25 ecosystem have any bearing upon that ecosystem's
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1 capacity to handle fluctuations in phosphorus levels?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How so?
4 A. It would effectively limit, there could
5 limit or there could be a constraining factor, an
6 amount of contact time or could be a factor of
7 contact time of sediment of the water face, if the
8 water column is deeper it may have less contact time.
9 Q. In other words, it would simply flow by as
10 opposed to being taken up by the soil?
11 A. It may never come in contact with the
12 soil.
13 Q. What about just the fluctuation of the
14 water flow itself from wet season highs to dry season
15 lows in the Park? Does that have any impact on
16 phosphorus levels?
17 A. Could you, I am sorry, I missed something
18 on that question.
19 MS. PONZOLI: Read it back.
20 THE WITNESS: Read it back.
21 Q. Let me just rephrase it, I think it will
22 be easier.
23 You would agree, wouldn't you, that there
24 is a seasonal fluctuation in water deliveries to the
25 Park under naturally occurring