92
1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
2
SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )
3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and )
WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )
4 Petitioners, )
vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038
5 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
6 of Florida; et al., )
Respondents. )
7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., )
8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )
and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )
9 Petitioners, )
vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039
10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
11 of Florida; et al., )
Respondents. )
12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
13 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )
W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )
14 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, )
15 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
16 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
of Florida; et al., )
17 Respondents. )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
18 100 Southeast 2nd Street
Miami, Florida
19 February 7, 1994
9:25 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.
20
DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. JONES
21 VOLUME II - P.M. SESSION
22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered
23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for
24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of
25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause.
93
1 APPEARANCES
2 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS SUGAR CANE GROWERS
COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, ROTH FARMS, INC. AND
3 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC.
4 HOPPING BOYD GREEN & SAMS
123 South Calhoun Street
5 Tallahassee, Florida 32314
BY: GARY P. SAMS, ESQ.
6
7 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE
LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and
8 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC.
9 EARL BLANK KAVANAUGH & STOTTS, P.A.
One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636
10 Two South Biscayne Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33131
11 BY: ROBERT H. BLANK, ESQ.
WILLIAM L. HYDE, ESQ.
12
13 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT SOUTH FLORIDA WATER
MANAGEMENT DISTRICT
14
STANLEY J. NIEGO, ESQ.
15 South Florida Water Management District
3301 Gun Club Road
16 West Palm Beach, Florida 33406
17
ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR
18 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
19 SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, ESQ.
Assistant United States Attorney
20 99 Northeast 4th Street
Miami, Florida 33132
21
PRESENT:
22 TRUMAN E. DUNCAN
JOSEPH HARRIS
23 B.J. PRESLEY
24
25
94
1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 1:15 p.m.
3 MR. HYDE: Back on the record.
4 BY MR. HYDE:
5 Q. Dr. Jones, this next group of documents
6 that I have here, it is Bates number 1171153 through
7 117464, it is well over a hundred pages, and
8 according to my consultants --
9 A. Excuse me a moment, 117464?
10 Q. Yes. According to my consultants these
11 documents appear to relate to respiration experiments
12 that you may have done to determine the effect of
13 phosphorus concentrations on ammonium respiration in
14 the soil.
15 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to the
16 form of the question.
17 A. You said ammonium respiration?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I don't believe that would be correct.
20 MR. NIEGO: Did we give this a number?
21 MR. HYDE: Not yet, I was just trying to
22 generally identify what they are.
23 MS. PONZOLI: Why don't you just ask.
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. Do you know what they are?
95
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. PONZOLI: Why don't you take a few
3 minutes and look through it.
4 THE WITNESS: It is a fairly thick
5 document, yes.
6 MS. PONZOLI: This will be Jones what
7 number?
8 MR. HYDE: Jones Exhibit 20.
9 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 20 was marked
10 for identification)
11 (Pause)
12 BY MR. HYDE:
13 Q. What are these documents, if you know?
14 A. It is a series of files from Dr. Jose
15 Amador's files that pertains to a number of different
16 just odds and ends of a particular project that we
17 were doing on soil respiration. This is the file
18 essentially that generated one of the publications
19 that were in my documents when the documents were
20 turned over.
21 Q. Could you identify that publication by
22 reference to your CV?
23 A. In all likelihood, I could.
24 (Pause)
25 A. It would probably be Amador and Jones
96
1 1993, Nutrient Limitations on Microbial Respiration
2 in Peat Soils with Different Total Phosphorus
3 Content, Soil Biology and Biochemistry, Volume 25,
4 pages No. 793 through 801.
5 That does not mean that the information
6 contained within this is all contained within that
7 particular paper.
8 Q. But this information all relates to that
9 paper?
10 A. Relates to that, yes, and perhaps other
11 papers that we may put out in the future.
12 Q. Are the analyses that you performed and
13 the conclusions and data that you relied on, the
14 conclusions you derived and the data you relied on
15 expressed in that paper?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would like you to turn now to the next
18 group of documents, we will label this Jones Exhibit
19 21. It is Bates number 1169747 through 1169815.
20 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 21 was marked
21 for identification)
22 BY MR. HYDE:
23 Q. What is that?
24 A. Again, it is a composite of a number of
25 different folders or portions thereof, some of which
97
1 we have already had introduced.
2 Q. Do these documents relate at all to
3 Exhibit 20 and the study that was conducted there
4 with Jose Amador?
5 A. Some of the figures in likelihood do. But
6 these are figures from a number of studies.
7 Q. We may come back to this particular
8 document at some later time. That's all I am going
9 to ask you about it at the moment.
10 (Pause)
11 MR. HYDE: The next document which we will
12 label Exhibit 22 begins with Bates number 1168479.
13 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 22 was marked
14 for identification)
15 BY MR. HYDE:
16 Q. Do you recognize that document?
17 A. Can you tell me how far it goes?
18 MR. HYDE: Off the record a minute.
19 (Discussion off the record)
20 MR. HYDE: I will come back to these
21 documents, too.
22 MS. PONZOLI: When you say you are going
23 to come back, are you referring to the pile that
24 begins 1168479 but not the one that begins 1169758?
25 MR. HYDE: Correct.
98
1 THE WITNESS: 1169758.
2 MS. PONZOLI: That is a separate paper
3 clip.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't have a separate
5 paper clip.
6 MS. PONZOLI: Yours are all different.
7 MR. HYDE: The next one has the same
8 problem too so let me come back to these at a later
9 time.
10 MS. PONZOLI: Both piles?
11 MR. HYDE: Yes. We will consider that to
12 be Composite Exhibit 22.
13 MS. PONZOLI: The two groups together
14 ending with one that is 1168520?
15 MR. HYDE: Right.
16 BY MR. HYDE:
17 Q. The next batch should be a fairly good
18 size one beginning with 1171624, is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If you would take a moment to review this
21 rather large batch of documents.
22 MS. PONZOLI: Are you referring, Mr. Hyde,
23 to the full two to three inches or just to the little
24 pile on top?
25 MR. HYDE: Actually I was referring to the
99
1 full thing but let's just take a look at the full
2 group.
3 MS. PONZOLI: Through 1171531?
4 MR. HYDE: Right.
5 BY MR. HYDE:
6 Q. Can you review these documents and
7 ascertain whether they apply to a given experiment
8 that you may have been conducting, and if so, what
9 that experiment is?
10 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form.
11 Do you understand there are two pending
12 questions, Dr. Jones?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 A. This is an incomplete portion of another
15 one of Dr. Amador's files.
16 MR. HYDE: We will mark that as No. 23.
17 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 23 was marked
18 for identification)
19 A. It is out of context from the way it was
20 in my files so I have a difficulty placing it into
21 which -- I can not tell you which publication this
22 data is now represented because, I don't have it in
23 the proper context.
24 Q. Would that be true of the entire group
25 that is through Bates number 1171531?
100
1 A. Yes. It appears to represent a single
2 experiment amongst many experiments leading towards
3 the final result of a publication, but I know from
4 looking at this that this is not the way that it was
5 that I have it in my files.
6 MR. HYDE: Let's move on to the next batch
7 beginning with Bates number 1171016 which will be
8 Jones No. 24. The first page reads Phosphate PO4
9 Loading Cell-Formulas and it goes on from there.
10 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 24 was marked
11 for identification)
12 MS. PONZOLI: Up through 1171131?
13 MR. HYDE: Yes.
14 BY MR. HYDE:
15 Q. Can you tell us what this is?
16 A. Again, this is a portion of a file and in
17 this case it would have been Dr. Jose Amador and Ms.
18 Grace Richany who was a graduate student in my
19 laboratory and this represents mostly output from the
20 nutrient analyzer and then the reloading of that data
21 into a spreadsheet to make some additional
22 calculations. And again it is out of context. Not
23 seeing it with the file folder and the heading on the
24 file folder I can't tell you again which publication
25 this resulted in.
101
1 Q. Is this information electronically
2 formatted?
3 A. This information at one time was
4 electronically formatted. Once we publish the papers
5 we keep a paper copy of it. In fact, it would be in
6 literally dozens of individual files as the stuff
7 gets foldered. If this resulted in published work
8 but I don't know which one of them because it is in a
9 very unusual --
10 Q. Does that mean that you don't keep your
11 electronically stored data once you finish or
12 published a document?
13 A. Most of the time we just don't have enough
14 space on our disks and whatever to hold on to stuff
15 like that. We keep a hard copy just in case somebody
16 would raise a question as to, you know, are you sure
17 that that curve is correct or whatever else like that
18 and then we will go and do that. Once it has been
19 through peer review and been published, I fill my
20 offices with nothing but reams of paper full of, sort
21 of numbers that, you know, have been generated
22 themselves into final format.
23 Q. Just to be clear, you keep the hard copy
24 and you throw away the electrical?
25 A. The electronic -- it goes on a disk and,
102
1 generally on the hard disk and when we are done with
2 that experiment we will either put it on disks -- in
3 the case of a paper that is still under the context
4 of production or whatever else like that we will have
5 all of the stuff still in its electronic form.
6 I wouldn't even keep this if it wouldn't
7 be for the fact that this was the litigation. I
8 would have only kept the final form. You just can't
9 keep your laboratory full of every piece of
10 information that comes off your nutrient analyzer.
11 Q. The next batch of information begins with
12 Bates number 1168507, this will be number 25.
13 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 25 was marked
14 for identification)
15 Q. What is this information here?
16 A. One moment, please.
17 (Pause)
18 MS. PONZOLI: This is 507 running
19 through --
20 MR. HYDE: 1168476.
21 MS. PONZOLI: What is wrong with this
22 picture?
23 MR. HYDE: It is backwards.
24 MS. PONZOLI: Is the whole thing
25 backwards, really?
103
1 MR. HYDE: I think it is jumbled again. I
2 think they are all the same thing, and they have been
3 grouped together for that purpose. They all appear
4 to be the same type of thing.
5 A. Again, without going back to the original
6 material, I do not know whether this is a complete
7 set. I do, however, have enough information from
8 this to tell you which two publications were
9 generated with it.
10 BY MR. HYDE:
11 Q. Identify first for me what the
12 publications are that it relates to.
13 A. May I have a copy of my CV, please?
14 (Pause)
15 A. There are a number of abstracts too but I
16 am just going to tell you the hard copy scientific
17 publications.
18 (Pause)
19 A. This would have represented itself in a
20 paper by Amador, Richany and Jones, 1992, Factors
21 Affecting Phosphate Uptake by Peat Soils of the
22 Florida Everglades, Soil Science, Volume 153, 463 to
23 470, and then a paper by Jones and Amador, 1992,
24 Removal of Total Phosphorus and Phosphate by Peat
25 Soils of the Florida Everglades, Canadian Journal of
104
1 Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, Volume 49, page 577
2 through 583.
3 Again, I am not saying this is the
4 complete set of data used for that but that is to the
5 best of my knowledge what this information was
6 utilized for.
7 Q. So all the conclusions and analyses are
8 reflected in those two studies?
9 A. I wouldn't want to limit everything I am
10 ever going to say about what was allowed in the
11 limited journal space.
12 Q. What do these particular pages indicate?
13 They reflect something specific, don't they?
14 A. Yes. This is essentially output from the
15 scintillation counter looking at the radioactive
16 counts of radio labeled phosphorus that we used in
17 labeling experiments.
18 Q. Where was the data collected?
19 A. Where was it collected?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. At FIU in my laboratory.
22 Q. Is this from samples taken from the field?
23 A. Yes. These are samples taken from
24 Everglades National Park.
25 (Pause)
105
1 A. All of this would appear to come from
2 Everglades National Park with the exception of the
3 last document in here, which has Bates number 1168474
4 on it and goes to 1168476, and has the designation
5 marl at the top of it. And without going back to see
6 where exactly I collected that marl, it may have been
7 in the area not yet incorporated into Everglades
8 National Park. But I can not remember.
9 Q. Are you referring to the East Everglades
10 area?
11 A. I would refer to the area that is now
12 included within Everglades National Park but was not
13 at the time of collection. It would have been the
14 acquisition lands, I believe they refer to it.
15 Q. The sample sites, were they south of the
16 12 structures?
17 A. In Everglades National Park, wherever you
18 would see a sample labeled like control, it would
19 definitely be south of the structure. Where the
20 other sites are depends upon which particular sample
21 you might be asking about.
22 Q. Do you have different samples then for,
23 different sample sites for different tests or
24 different sequences here?
25 A. We sampled different areas within
106
1 Everglades National Park as indicated in the
2 publications that I noted.
3 Q. Would that publication reflect where the
4 sample sites were located?
5 A. Yes, it would also include a map.
6 Q. Would it correspond to the numbers of
7 these documents?
8 A. It would correspond to something in these
9 documents. I can't tell you exactly what it would
10 be. For instance, if we take the first page here, it
11 says, NDS sediment, that would have been nutrient
12 dosing site, okay. So that would have been, would
13 have given me the idea of where that sample was
14 collected from. By it saying sawgrass, it also tells
15 me exactly where the location was.
16 Q. I would like you to examine the next group
17 of documents which begins with Bates number 1171611,
18 and again is an irregularly paginated document but
19 the last one of the grouping should be 1171149. That
20 will be Jones Exhibit 26.
21 (Deposition Jones Exhibit 26 was marked
22 for identification)
23 BY MR. HYDE:
24 Q. Can you tell me generally what these refer
25 to?
107
1 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Hyde, the documents are
2 becoming more jumbled and the questions the same.
3 MR. HYDE: I am trying to get through
4 these in a summary fashion to see what they relate
5 to.
6 MS. PONZOLI: It is a pretty thick stack
7 of documents, not quite an inch of not sequential
8 numbers. So I will let him answer the best way he
9 can. Generally it all relates to something in the
10 Everglades.
11 (Pause)
12 A. This material was all kept in notebooks,
13 actually labeled and sequentially put into things.
14 This, I don't know whether it came from
15 one notebook, three notebooks or four notebooks. I
16 see things that indicate it came from at least three
17 different places, a number of different types of
18 experiments, all dealing with phosphorus
19 incorporation by Everglades soils.
20 But again as with the prior documents, I
21 can't -- I know some of this has resulted in
22 publications. I just don't know -- I don't know how
23 attribute it to the various things.
24 MR. HYDE: The next document we will label
25 Exhibit 27 is Bates number 1192369 through 371.
108
1 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 27 was marked
2 for identification)
3 MS. PONZOLI: I am sorry. I'm looking at
4 the wrong one. There is a DRJ number and 369 is the
5 original number, and goes through 659? At the end --
6 MR. HYDE: No, 371, just three pages.
7 MS. PONZOLI: I am sorry. I am with you.
8 Thank you.
9 BY MR. HYDE:
10 Q. This appears to represent some EPA water
11 samples, would that be correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Do you know where they were taken in the
14 EPA?
15 A. No. This EPA refers to Environmental
16 Protection Agency, the real one.
17 Q. You don't know where --
18 A. I don't know where they were taken, yes.
19 Sorry about that. I just didn't want to let you --
20 Q. Where were they taken?
21 A. A number of canal stations, 50 canal
22 stations from Lake Okeechobee all the way down to
23 Florida Bay, and without the grid map and station
24 designations I can't tell you exactly which sample
25 was taken where.
109
1 Q. Which grid map are you referring to? Can
2 you just generically describe it for me?
3 A. This would have been in a document
4 produced for the EPA mercury study.
5 Q. So these, the numbers here under H20
6 Bottle ID would correspond to the numbers provided in
7 that grid in the mercury study?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Who collected this information to your
10 knowledge?
11 A. We did the analyses, the samples were
12 collected by a work team sent down by the
13 Environmental Protection Agency.
14 Q. Do you know what analytical methods were
15 employed here?
16 A. Yes. We did the analysis so they were the
17 same analyses that we were using.
18 Q. What did you do here?
19 A. Total phosphorus and total organic carbon
20 analysis.
21 Q. What does it mean by nonpurgeable organic
22 carbon? I am not familiar with that term.
23 A. Purgeable would be something that could be
24 purged out with a stream of air or argon or something
25 like that. So anything that is not purgeable by that
110
1 mechanism.
2 Q. What was the date these samples were
3 taken?
4 A. Last fall. Again, there was a specific
5 set of dates. I just don't, I can't tell you without
6 looking back at the thing. And it would vary
7 depending on which number you have here. It was a
8 seven day period.
9 MR. HYDE: The next one, No. 28. This
10 would be Bates number 1169842 through 1169850.
11 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 28 was marked
12 for identification)
13 BY MR. HYDE:
14 Q. Do you know what these documents are, Dr.
15 Jones?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Please describe them.
18 A. It is a series of samples from the
19 National Bureau of Standards when it used to be
20 called that, and a series of our own leaves that we
21 ground up and were running a number of, it looks like
22 total phosphorus analyses on all of them just to get
23 an idea of what kind of a benchmark figure we could
24 put on the data, the values for our particular
25 samples.
111
1 Q. Do you know where these samples were
2 taken?
3 A. The CL samples are, I have no idea, that
4 stands for citrus leaves. And they were collected in
5 some orchard somewhere by somebody in the federal
6 government and ground up and they distribute these to
7 laboratories all over the world as standard reference
8 material.
9 The L1, L2 and L3, are the L samples, were
10 a sample of Anona which is commonly referred to as
11 pond apple, that we collected south of S-12, if I am
12 not mistaken, and have dried and ground up and made
13 for our own reference material rather than using
14 something that doesn't grow in the Everglades.
15 Q. Is the date reflected on these documents
16 the date of collection or the date of analysis?
17 A. It would have to be the date of analysis
18 because this material was collected sometime -- I
19 mean, I don't remember when we collected the Anona
20 leaves. The citrus leaves were collected, who knows
21 when. I am not even sure it is on the bottle.
22 Q. For what purpose did you obtain this
23 information?
24 A. This is what is referred to as standard
25 reference material, and this is one of the ways of
112
1 checking to see whether your analytical laboratory is
2 performing to the level that the National Bureau of
3 Standards --
4 Q. Okay. Were you doing a test to conform?
5 A. No, it is not a test as much as it is a,
6 you always want to know how close you are to whatever
7 the benchmark that is established by a reference
8 organization.
9 Q. What analytical methods did you employ
10 here?
11 A. These would have been the same methodology
12 that we were using for the previous analysis for
13 total phosphorus analysis of water and soils.
14 MR. HYDE: We will label the next one 29,
15 Exhibit 29 is a two-page document Bates number
16 1169840 through 841.
17 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 29 was marked
18 for identification)
19 BY MR. HYDE:
20 Q. Again, is this another one of those
21 standard citrus tests?
22 A. Citrus and Anona leaves.
23 Q. Again, the date reflected would be the
24 date of analysis?
25 A. Yes.
113
1 Q. Where do you obtain these samples from again?
2 A. I am sorry?
3 Q. Where did you obtain these samples from?
4 A. It used to be referred to as the National
5 Bureau of Standards, it is the same people who tell
6 you how long a meter is and how much a kilogram
7 weighs and all of that type of thing.
8 National Institute of Testing, they
9 changed, NITS. I can not remember what they changed
10 their name to right now. Sorry.
11 MR. HYDE: Let's label the next one page
12 document No. 30 and that is 1169839.
13 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 30 was marked
14 for identification)
15 BY MR. HYDE:
16 Q. Dr. Jones, is that the same type of
17 document as you have been referring to, just a
18 different test?
19 A. Just on May 25, right.
20 MR. HYDE: The next one we will label 31,
21 it is a one-page document, 1169838.
22 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 31 was marked
23 for identification)
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. What is this document here?
114
1 A. Total phosphorus on Everglades water
2 samples. The only thing that I can recognize
3 offhand, it is out of context, in other words, it is
4 a single document that really belongs with a group of
5 other documents. And the only thing I can recognize
6 on it are the last six which say S-333 which
7 represents the South Florida Water Management
8 District, the Corps of Engineers structure I guess,
9 S-333 which is at the Tamiami Trail and entrance of
10 Everglades National Park.
11 Q. Does this reflect water samples that you
12 or your lab took?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were they taken on January 9, 1990 or
15 analyzed on that day?
16 A. I don't know, sorry, not without seeing
17 this in the context of the other documents, I can not
18 tell you that.
19 Q. So this is just total phosphorus
20 measurements of these locations?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know where these other sample sites
23 are, 3A-1 through 3A-9?
24 A. I am, sorry, I can't -- if I had the
25 context I could tell you. I know that this document
115
1 had additional material with it including a map. And
2 without that I can't remember.
3 MR. HYDE: We will label the next one 32,
4 it is Bates numbered 1171150 through 152.
5 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 32 was marked
6 for identification)
7 BY MR. HYDE:
8 Q. What is this document?
9 A. I believe it is incorrectly labeled on the
10 top as Audubon samples. That must have just not been
11 erased or it could be Audubon samples but I just
12 don't remember them ever sending me 16 sawgrass
13 samples. Again, I think it is out of context in that
14 it would have been in a folder with additional
15 information. Because if I am not mistaken it is from
16 a transect south of S-12C looking at the nitrogen and
17 carbon content of sawgrass leaves as you proceed
18 along the transect in a southerly direction from
19 S-12D into Everglades National Park.
20 Q. Are the handwritten notes at the far right
21 averages again?
22 A. My understanding from looking at this
23 would be that is correct.
24 Q. So the 7.9, the first mention of 7.9-N
25 would be the average of the nitrogen?
116
1 A. Yes, I would think so, without going
2 through the calculation I am assuming that is what
3 that means.
4 Q. Conversely the C would stand for the
5 carbon?
6 A. Carbon, correct.
7 Q. Do you have any idea where these samples
8 were taken?
9 A. If they are the samples I think they are,
10 and again without seeing it in the particular folder,
11 I collected the samples, so, yes, they were taken
12 where I said along the transect.
13 MR. HYDE: We will label the next one
14 Jones 33, that is 1171582 through, it is 1171582
15 through 1171592 and then 1171566 through 1171577.
16 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 33 was marked
17 for identification)
18 BY MR. HYDE:
19 Q. These documents all appear to be
20 reflecting the same type of information. Could you
21 describe for me what they are?
22 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form.
23 I would like you to ask him the two
24 separate questions separately, Mr. Hyde. I don't
25 think you did it on purpose. First ask him if they
117
1 reflect the same information and then whatever it is.
2 I would like it done separately.
3 MR. HYDE: Form over substance.
4 MS. PONZOLI: No, I don't necessarily
5 agree with that. I haven't seen what you are going
6 to do with all of this.
7 BY MR. HYDE:
8 Q. Dr. Jones, what does all of this
9 represent?
10 A. They represent two different tests that
11 were done. The first series beginning with 1171582
12 and ending with 1171592 represents the
13 alkali-releasable phosphate from impacted soil, that
14 is on this document, and the second series beginning
15 with 1171566 and proceeding on to 1171577 represents
16 the acid-releasable phosphate from impacted soil.
17 Q. Were these taken from samples from given
18 locations?
19 A. Yes, they were.
20 Q. Where were those locations?
21 A. Again, this is another document that is
22 out of context, not in order. I am assuming that the
23 impacted area that we were examining was either south
24 of S-12D or S-12C in South Florida Water
25 Management -- the Everglades National Park.
118
1 Q. Concerning the first series of documents
2 relating to alkali-releasable phosphate, what
3 sampling procedures did you employ there?
4 A. This is not representing a sampling
5 procedure.
6 Q. What about the analytical methodology
7 employed there?
8 A. The analytical methodology here depends on
9 which parameter you are talking about on this thing.
10 This represents the results of an experiment.
11 Q. What are the different steps of this
12 experiment, then?
13 A. You asked.
14 Soil is taken into the laboratory, placed
15 in a profusion column and then profused with a
16 solution at different pHs, under the first set it
17 would have been an alkaline solution. And then the
18 phosphorus loss, the amount of phosphorus that was
19 leached off of the column or removed from the column
20 was measured with time via the same analytical
21 techniques we have used in the past.
22 Q. For what purpose did you run this test?
23 MS. PONZOLI: Were you finished, Dr.
24 Jones?
25 MR. HYDE: I thought he was.
119
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MS. PONZOLI: That's fine. I am sorry.
3 A. It is of interest to people like myself
4 who would like to know the impacts of phosphorus into
5 what forms are present in the environment and under
6 what conditions do they become available, more
7 available, less available. And this is just one of
8 the many things that we did to gain some insight into
9 that.
10 Q. What did you learn from this particular
11 experiment?
12 A. You presented me here with the raw data
13 from this, not with the publication or a graphic or
14 anything that represents this. I am not sure where
15 this material is at the moment.
16 If I am not mistaken this is in a paper
17 that we are still thinking about publishing and have
18 not yet had the time to do so. Dr. Amador and I,
19 when I say we.
20 Q. Will this information form the basis of
21 any opinion that you are planning on offering at a
22 final hearing?
23 A. This information graphically represented
24 may very well be utilized in that. So I would have
25 to say at this time I can't really tell you it is or
120
1 isn't because of the format in which you are
2 presenting it to me.
3 Q. Would that graphic depiction of the
4 information be contained in some other document that
5 you provided to us?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know what that document is?
8 A. Well, we may very well have seen it in
9 some of the graphics that you said we would be
10 returning to at some later time.
11 Q. Is the second series of documents
12 beginning with Bates number 1171569 essentially the
13 same except it looks at acid-releasable phosphate?
14 A. 66, correct?
15 Q. You are right, 66.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. HYDE: The next series of documents
18 begins with Bates number 1168658 and they all appear
19 to be documents from Engineers-Scientists Laboratory,
20 Inc. even though they are not all consecutively
21 numbered. This will be No. 34.
22 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 34 was marked
23 for identification)
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. Do you recognize these documents?
121
1 A. I know what they are but I don't have the
2 faintest idea what they are. I mean, it is a report
3 from ESL.
4 MR. HYDE: The next series of documents is
5 Bates number 1169888 through 891, that will be No.
6 35.
7 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 35 was marked
8 for identification)
9 BY MR. HYDE:
10 Q. First of all, do you recognize this
11 document?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What is it?
14 A. Once again, it is another document pulled
15 out of context and out of a series of other documents
16 that would have allowed me to say a lot more about
17 it.
18 They appear to be total nitrogen and
19 carbon samples. Unfortunately, I can't read the last
20 column. It looks like it says micrograms of P/G
21 carbon, grams of carbon. But I don't know. I can't
22 read that.
23 Q. Is this a document that you or your lab
24 would have generated?
25 A. Yes, it is definitely a document that was
122
1 generated, in fact, at least some of these numbers
2 look like they were written by myself.
3 Q. Do you know where the sampling locations
4 were?
5 A. Not in this context. I can tell you what
6 the E and S stand for and that's the only thing I can
7 tell you. E is Eleocharis or open water areas and S
8 is sawgrass, sawgrass areas.
9 And I need to see it in its appropriate
10 context to be able to define which one of these are.
11 Q. What if it is neither E nor S? Look at 13
12 through 15.
13 A. Yes.
14 I am sorry, I can't -- I know when I see
15 E's and S's what that is because that is something
16 I've always done. When we have some combined sites,
17 very often they may have been from somewhere else.
18 And these numbers would be on a map. You have a map
19 somewhere in my document production that has all of
20 this stuff on it.
21 MR. HYDE: The next series of documents
22 begins with Bates number 1171635 and that's going to
23 be Exhibit 36.
24 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 36 was marked
25 for identification)
123
1 BY MR. HYDE:
2 Q. Do Jones, do you recognize this document?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. What is it?
5 A. It is again another document that has been
6 taken out of the appropriate folder and sort of mixed
7 in with everything else. But luckily I do remember
8 because of some of the analyses that we had done at
9 Cornell nutrient analysis laboratory for the purpose
10 of both confirming our work and doing some analyses
11 which we do not routinely do in our laboratory such
12 as iron and aluminum.
13 Q. Why did you send this to Cornell instead
14 of doing it yourself?
15 A. We have several instruments that are very
16 time consuming to set up and in fact if I remember
17 correctly we actually did do it ourselves and then we
18 sent it off to Cornell anyway just because the
19 particular technician who was running the machine was
20 not well versed in how to do these particular
21 analyses in soil. So we felt it was good to send
22 them off to a laboratory that does that routinely
23 because we needed this information for publication.
24 Q. Did your staff then do the sampling?
25 A. Yes.
124
1 Q. Do you know where the field sampling was
2 conducted?
3 A. You would have to look at the publication.
4 Q. Do you recall which publication it is
5 referring to?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 (Pause)
8 A. The first place that it would be
9 represented would be in Amador, Richany and Jones
10 1992, Factors Affecting Phosphate Uptake by Peat
11 Soils of the Florida Everglades, Soil Science, Volume
12 153, pages 463 through 470.
13 It is also represented in subsequent
14 articles referring to any kind of baseline
15 information.
16 MR. HYDE: The next group begins with
17 Bates number 1169763 and it is a series of graphs.
18 MS. PONZOLI: It goes how far, Mr. Hyde?
19 MR. HYDE: It should be 1169763 through
20 769, and 1169755 and then 1169770 through 773. Then
21 there is a free agent out there, 1169745.
22 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 37 was marked
23 for identification)
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. Let me just ask you about the first
125
1 document here. First of all, did you prepare this
2 document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What sampling locations are reflected
5 here?
6 A. In the very, very first figure.
7 MS. PONZOLI: Excuse me, are we talking
8 about only the first figure?
9 MR. HYDE: The first figure.
10 MS. PONZOLI: 1169763, that is what we are
11 talking about.
12 Q. Correct?
13 A. Water Conservation Area 3A samples, north
14 of S-12C.
15 Q. Are they specifically delineated
16 somewhere, what these sampling locations are?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where would that be reflected?
19 A. There is again a map around, coordinates,
20 all sorts of things. I believe we have seen them in
21 one of the documents we produced.
22 Q. Let's turn to the next document, 1169764.
23 What is this document?
24 A. It is a figure, we may very well have used
25 this, a figure in one of the papers. It is
126
1 essentially a model fit component versus a carbon
2 nitrogen ratio. That's as good as you are going to
3 get with this piece of paper.
4 Q. The next document, 1169765 relating to the
5 Everglades National Park.
6 MS. PONZOLI: What is your question?
7 Q. First of all, did you do this document?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Where are these data points, I guess,
10 let's put it that way.
11 A. Located?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. On the transect south of S-12C.
14 Q. In line with your other previous
15 transects?
16 A. Yes. Again the spacing on this, this is
17 an extremely early version of the plotting. I was
18 just really happy to see the stuff come up and drawn
19 a line let alone worrying about whether it was eleven
20 kilometers or eleven and a half. Actually these are
21 station numbers 0 through 11. There is no real
22 substance on the bottom.
23 Q. The next document, 1169768, seems to be
24 entitled Observed Ecological Effect. Did you prepare
25 this document?
127
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. What does it represent?
3 A. We used this in preparation and as one of
4 the exhibits for the settlement agreement between the
5 United States, the State of Florida and in the
6 federal litigation. This was my first cut at
7 conceptualizing that exhibit.
8 Q. The left-hand margin indicates the word
9 Resolution and then an upward pointing arrow. What
10 is that depicting?
11 A. Resolution is in the strictest sense, is a
12 term that is used in microscopy. And it tells you
13 the ability to distinguish two individual points at a
14 various magnification or whatever. So it has the
15 same thing to do with, I guess, this type of an
16 instance, your ability to pick out a real effect from
17 background.
18 Q. The top line indicates time so I guess
19 that is over time that you are measuring there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I guess from the way you have it drawn
22 that it would indicate that you would notice elevated
23 water concentrations first and wildlife impacts last,
24 is that what this is depicting?
25 A. That's a fairly simplistic, but fairly
128
1 correct observation.
2 Q. I like simplistic correct things, I
3 understand them.
4 A. Fairly simplistic, fairly correct.
5 Q. Is there something inaccurate about what I
6 have said?
7 A. You are not taking into account the
8 meanings of the word resolution and then the line
9 drawn, level of perception. So perception and
10 resolution work together in defining things.
11 Q. Can you explain to me how they do?
12 A. I can give you an example. And that would
13 be you might be able to measure a particular
14 component in the water column only after it has
15 caused a significant impact and so the ability to
16 resolve that analytically is not the same as your
17 ability to perceive that visually as a change or an
18 impact to an environment.
19 Q. Let's move now to the last document in
20 this series, 1169745. Do you recognize this
21 document, Dr. Jones?
22 A. I have to think this is a Florida Bay
23 document, but I am not -- I mean, you are presenting
24 it to me in an extremely hard way for me to judge
25 what it really is.
129
1 MR. HYDE: We will label the next document
2 No. 38, and it is Bates number 1169833 through 837.
3 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 38 was marked
4 for identification)
5 BY MR. HYDE:
6 Q. Dr. Jones, do you recognize this document?
7 A. I recognize it as being one of my
8 documents produced of Loxahatchee samples, total
9 nitrogen and total carbon analysis.
10 Q. Let me ask about the sample sites here.
11 What does Lox 1-1A mean for the first one?
12 A. This is again another document, without
13 the base map I will make the assumption based on my
14 recollection that this is an additional transect in
15 Loxahatchee.
16 Q. Is this the east-west transect you were
17 referring to earlier?
18 A. This is my -- no, I believe this is not
19 the east-west transect. I believe this is the
20 transverse transect going from northwest to
21 southeast. But I again, without -- there are field
22 notes that you have that would tell me more. And
23 there are more than just Loxahatchee samples here,
24 there are Water Conservation Area 2A and Everglades
25 National Park.
130
1 Q. What was this an analysis of? I know it
2 is carbon and nitrogen but what were you analyzing,
3 soil?
4 A. Soil.
5 Q. How deep was your sample?
6 A. Top ten centimeters.
7 Q. Again, is this date reflecting the date of
8 collection or the date of analysis?
9 A. I am sorry, I can't tell you that without
10 the field notes.
11 Q. The fourth page appears to be referring to
12 something other than Loxahatchee. Would that be
13 correct?
14 A. Yes. I indicated before I think that you
15 go to the third page even, and the bottom ones are
16 representing what I assume is 2A, meaning Water
17 Conservation Area 2A, and then on the fourth page,
18 where it says 3B, representing Water Conservation
19 Area 3B, when I was in a bad mood and decided to
20 mislabel it.
21 Q. Then the EAA obviously referring to the
22 Everglades Agricultural Area?
23 A. Actually, that is not true. It was a
24 sample in Loxahatchee on the western, the western
25 boundary approaching the EAA, if I am not mistaken.
131
1 I don't remember.
2 Q. What does ENF stand for?
3 A. That should be ENP, I think just bad
4 xeroxing.
5 3B, I can't believe it.
6 MR. HYDE: The next one we will label No.
7 39. This is 1169816 through 828.
8 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 39 was marked
9 for identification)
10 BY MR. HYDE:
11 Q. Is this some work you or your staff
12 performed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. To your recollection is that the date of
15 analysis or date of collection?
16 A. I can't tell you. Same reasons as before.
17 Q. Does that final column of handwritten
18 numbers indicate an average of the previous or the
19 two connective numbers?
20 A. It would appear to.
21 Q. Were these soil samples as well?
22 A. Yes, they would be.
23 Q. And were they likewise for a ten
24 centimeter depth?
25 A. That would be pretty much standard.
132
1 Q. What would the sample sites correspond to
2 in terms of a document that would indicate where they
3 are located?
4 A. Again, the map and the consequent labeling
5 and also the field notes that would have again the
6 date, time and the Loran coordinates.
7 Q. When you take a soil sample are all your
8 depths ten centimeters?
9 A. Generally they are ten centimeters. We
10 have gone through a number of different sampling
11 regimes.
12 Q. Instead of my asking you specifically
13 whether something is ten centimeters or how deep it
14 is, tell me if it is something different than ten
15 centimeters.
16 MS. PONZOLI: He can try but I don't want
17 him bound to that. This is going on pretty long. We
18 are going through a very large number of documents.
19 I wouldn't want you to impeach him later because
20 somehow he forgot to remember there was an additional
21 question tacked on each time.
22 MR. HYDE: The next one I guess is number
23 40, 1169829 through 8932.
24 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 40 was marked
25 for identification)
133
1 BY MR. HYDE:
2 Q. Do you recognize this document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you prepare it?
5 A. Again, is this date a collection date or
6 date of analysis date?
7 A. I am sorry, I can't tell you without the
8 notes.
9 Q. Does this refer to a soil sample?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is the depth of the soil sample ten
12 centimeters?
13 A. When you refer to the depth of the soil
14 sample, I must, I guess I should point out when I say
15 ten centimeters I am referring to a sample that is a
16 composite from zero to ten centimeters, not the ten
17 centimeter increment in the soil column.
18 Q. I understood that.
19 MR. HYDE: The next one is No. 41, Bates
20 number 1169791 through 1169815.
21 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 41 was marked
22 for identification.
23 BY MR. HYDE:
24 Q. Do you recognize this document?
25 A. Yes, I do.
134
1 Q. What is this document?
2 A. It is again total phosphorus samples from
3 a number of transects within the EPA.
4 Q. Are these soil samples too?
5 A. Yes, they are.
6 Q. Are they ten centimeter depth soil
7 samples --
8 A. Zero to ten?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Right, yes.
11 Q. The next group is a group of I guess
12 miscellaneous data sheets and I guess the only
13 question I have that really relates to them is
14 whether the dates reflected there are the date of
15 collection or date of analysis.
16 A. On this whole series?
17 Q. Yes. Would you know the answer to that?
18 A. Well, they have the data sheets but in
19 fact you indeed have some of the things which
20 indicate the information, further information that is
21 found on the raw data sheets.
22 Q. Would you explain that to me again?
23 A. 1169852, for example, indicates to me that
24 there were two dates of sample collection, 1/8/91 and
25 1/9/91, along with some station numbers and then some
135
1 data there, and those appear to be GPS coordinates or
2 perhaps Loran coordinates but one of the two, along
3 with some distances and things. So that is one of
4 the sheets of paper that put in the right place would
5 tell us a lot.
6 MR. HYDE: We will label that No. 42, the
7 first page is 1171012, and they are out of sequence.
8 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 42 was marked
9 for identification)
10 MR. HYDE: Let's take a break here. I
11 have one other group of notes but I have to wait
12 until I get some information before I question on
13 them. I think we will be finished with this exercise
14 for the day and we can now move on to a more
15 substantive line of questioning.
16 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
17 after which the following proceedings
18 were had)
19 MR. HYDE: Back on the record.
20 Jones Deposition Exhibit 43, Bates number
21 1193341 through 344.
22 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 43 was marked
23 for identification)
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. Dr. Jones, can you identify Exhibit 43 for
136
1 me, please?
2 MS. PONZOLI: 43 goes 41 through 43?
3 MR. HYDE: No, 44.
4 MS. PONZOLI: I am sorry, 44.
5 A. These are my field notes from the League's
6 entry into Everglades National Park.
7 Q. Can you see at the top of the page, a date?
8 A. 1/22/93. Is that possible? Yes. That
9 long ago.
10 Q. And to the right of that it says ENP
11 nutrient --
12 A. Dosing site.
13 Q. Dosing site.
14 Are these all notes that are related to
15 the League's entry and access to the Park?
16 A. To the Park and Big Cypress. There were a
17 few stations that they did in Big Cypress.
18 Q. And you said these were your notes?
19 A. These are my notes, that's correct.
20 Q. The next document we will label No. 44,
21 that's Bates number 1168654 through 656.
22 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 44 was marked
23 for identification)
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. Can you identify this document for me?
137
1 A. It is a document outlining the production
2 belts in the EAA, I believe. It is not my document.
3 It was in my files. I didn't prepare this document.
4 Q. Who is Mr. Hirschhorn, to your knowledge?
5 A. I do not have any idea. It says he is a
6 certified public accountant.
7 Q. Have you relied on this document for any
8 purpose?
9 A. Utilized it in preparing our request for
10 entry and access into the EAA.
11 Q. The next document we will label No. 45,
12 that's Bates number 1168774 through 777.
13 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 45 was marked
14 for identification
15 BY MR. HYDE:
16 Q. Can you identify this document for me.
17 A. This is a document sent to me by Mr. Brian
18 Rood from the University of Florida indicating where
19 they would like to collect, would like to have
20 collected samples for their mercury analysis in
21 Everglades National Park and it looks like a number
22 of other stations up through the Water Conservation
23 Areas. But again this is not my document, it was
24 sent to me for informational purposes.
25 Q. Who is Mr. Rood, other than the fact that
138
1 he is at the University of Florida?
2 A. I don't want to misrepresent who he is so
3 to the best of my understanding Mr. Rood is a
4 graduate student of Joe Delfino at the University of
5 Florida.
6 Q. Are these sites at which Mr. Rood or his
7 associates wanted to take samples?
8 A. Where they wanted to take samples?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. I believe that that's what this indicates
11 on his cover note to me.
12 MR. HYDE: The next exhibit we will label
13 as 46, it is a one-page document, Bates number
14 1192388.
15 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 46 was marked
16 for identification)
17 BY MR. HYDE:
18 Q. Do you recognize this document?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. What is it?
21 A. It is a sampling grid that a geology
22 student who -- I am in the department of biology and
23 she's in the department of geology so she can't be my
24 student from that standpoint but she is working on
25 her project in my laboratory so for all intents and
139
1 purposes she is my student.
2 This is a grid that we set up to look at
3 the spatial distribution of mercury in Water
4 Conservation Area 3A.
5 Q. What is the name of that student?
6 A. Cleone Arfsdrom.
7 Q. Could you spell that name?
8 A. C L E O N E, A R F S D R O M.
9 Q. Was this in Water Conservation Area 3A?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Do you know whether this study is under
12 way?
13 A. We are nearly complete with it, although
14 we did not analyze every one of those little dots on
15 the map.
16 Q. Are you a participant in that particular
17 study?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Which study is this?
20 A. This is one, Cleone is doing this for her
21 master's thesis under my direction.
22 Q. Why is a geology student doing a master's
23 thesis under a biology professor's tutelage?
24 A. I am a biogeochemist. I do as much with
25 geology and chemistry as I do with biology. So
140
1 distribution of species like mercury or phosphorus or
2 anything has a lot to do -- just its simple presence
3 would be something a geologist would be interested in
4 and I am interested in that also.
5 MR. HYDE: Moving on now to the next
6 document we will label No. 47, Bates number 1170662
7 through 1170664.
8 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 47 was marked
9 for identification)
10 BY MR. HYDE:
11 Q. Do you recognize this document, Dr. Jones?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What is it?
14 A. It is a grid network that we went out to
15 sample in Everglades National Park and Water
16 Conservation Area 3A to look at a number of
17 parameters, specifically total phosphorus in the
18 water, alkaline phosphatase activity and
19 conductivity, temperature, types of things that we
20 recorded.
21 Q. Is this an excerpt from some larger
22 document?
23 A. This is the remaining document after an
24 earlier document production that is between myself
25 and the copiers and when I received the documents
141
1 back this was the only thing that was left so it is
2 either lost in my files or somewhere else, there is
3 some very, very nice data at Kinko's or someplace.
4 Q. This appears to refer only to
5 conductivity, at least that's what I seem to
6 indicate.
7 A. That is the very, very disappointing thing
8 about the fact this is three pages out of probably
9 15.
10 Q. But to your knowledge it was concerned
11 with other data points as well?
12 A. Most certainly.
13 Q. Do you know where this was taken, where
14 these sample sites were located?
15 A. Yes. They are indicated on the map on the
16 final page.
17 Q. What are the units of measurement for the
18 conductivity?
19 A. A micromhos.
20 MR. HYDE: Next document, No. 48, Bates
21 number 1169775 through 780.
22 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 48 was marked
23 for identification)
24 BY MR. HYDE:
25 Q. Do you recognize this rather poor copy of
142
1 whatever it is?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. What is it?
4 A. These are Dan Scheidt's field notes from
5 one of our sampling trips from along the transects
6 that I ran in, I think we went -- I am not sure if we
7 went up to Loxahatchee, yes, from Loxahatchee to
8 Water Conservation Area 2A to Water Conservation Area
9 3A and then on into Everglades National Park.
10 Q. You conducted transects in all of those
11 different areas?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were those transacts unique to this study?
14 A. To this represented here?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No. When I refer to these transects,
17 these transects were occupied on a number of
18 different occasions during a number of different
19 studies. The transects are universal to a large body
20 of the research we did.
21 Q. So when you are referring to a transect in
22 2A you are referring to a specific one?
23 A. I'm referring to the transect in 2A that
24 we operated.
25 Q. And similarly with the Loxahatchee Refuge?
143
1 A. There were two transects in Loxahatchee
2 but depending on the -- for instance the east-west
3 one is a transect in Loxahatchee.
4 Q. And the Park one is south of the S-12C
5 structures?
6 A. That's correct.
7 MR. HYDE: We will label the next document
8 Exhibit Jones No. 49. It is actually two documents
9 that seem to have become separated, Bates 1169734 and
10 1169735.
11 THE WITNESS: They are two separate
12 documents.
13 MR. HYDE: They are?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, just for the lack of
15 staples.
16 MR. HYDE: Okay, No. 49 will be 1169734.
17 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 49 was marked
18 for identification)
19 BY MR. HYDE:
20 Q. Would you identify that document for me?
21 A. This is a page out of Dan Scheidt's notes
22 indicating three transects, three short transects,
23 different from the S-12C transect that I have
24 referred to earlier, that we ran in Everglades
25 National Park south of a number of culverts in the
144
1 area.
2 Q. So all of these are culverts, not S-12C?
3 A. The culverts indicated on this you can see
4 indicated by little, if you will, boxes. You see a
5 T1, then it indicates a box. That would be a culvert
6 entering from the old Tamiami Canal into Everglades
7 National Park.
8 Q. How big are these culverts approximately?
9 A. (Indicating) you know, maybe three feet in
10 diameter. I mean, that's -- you know.
11 Q. They are not very large, they are not
12 huge?
13 A. No, we are not talking like the S-12
14 structures, we are talking about regular culverts
15 that go underneath a road type of a thing.
16 Q. What was Mr. Scheidt measuring here?
17 A. He was measuring nothing. He was just
18 indicating where these particular transects were.
19 If I am not mistaken, the reason for T1,
20 T2 and T3 were based on some previous work that had
21 been done either vegetatively or something else in
22 Everglades National Park by some researchers prior to
23 my doing this and so there was some historical
24 information based on these particular culverts.
25 Q. Was some information taken on these
145
1 transects?
2 A. Yes, yes. Again, this is a document that
3 is taken out of, that should have been with the data
4 that was collected at those particular locations.
5 And we may have seen it in here.
6 Q. Do you recall what that data was?
7 A. It would have been total phosphorus in the
8 soils, probably total phosphorus in the water,
9 alkaline phosphatase, perhaps some vegetative
10 sampling.
11 Q. How far into the Park did these transects
12 extend?
13 A. I am sorry, I can't answer that. Again,
14 there is a set of detailed notes with the Loran
15 coordinates and a number of other things.
16 Q. Do those notes have any other
17 distinguishing characteristics so that I could
18 recognize them if I saw them?
19 A. They would look like this (indicating).
20 Q. Would they contain specific reference to
21 these box culverts or whatever they are?
22 A. It would have T1, T2 and T3 listed on
23 that.
24 Q. Did you collect any of these samples or
25 was it Mr. Scheidt?
146
1 A. I collected all of the samples.
2 Q. How were your soil samples taken?
3 A. The same manner as previous.
4 Q. The top ten centimeters?
5 A. The top ten centimeters.
6 Q. Did you take tissue samples of plants?
7 A. This is -- that's a good question. I
8 don't remember particularly on these.
9 Q. You think you did take samples of water
10 concentration?
11 A. If there was water present, whenever there
12 is water present I take a water sample, whether it
13 was analyzed is the question.
14 But I am assuming I would have water and
15 soil samples for these transects at a minimum.
16 Q. Did you draw any conclusions or notice any
17 trends concerning this data?
18 A. Yes. But without seeing that again
19 graphically represented or the particular data, I
20 would be pressed to say exactly what that was, from
21 these particular transects.
22 Q. Do you recall generally what it reflected?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What is that?
25 A. That there tends to be a scalloping
147
1 effect, in other words, the nutrient edge is very
2 scalloped, wherever there is a input structure you
3 see the damage in the Park due to the elevated
4 phosphorus.
5 Q. Did this scalloping effect extend very far
6 into the Park?
7 A. It depends on where you are and how much
8 water was going through the structure.
9 Q. Did some of the culverts have I guess more
10 water flow than others?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Which, if you recall, had more and which
13 had less?
14 A. I do not recall.
15 Q. How did those water flows compare, for
16 example, to the S-12 structures?
17 A. You have to understand the way that the
18 S-12s function and the structure of the canals up
19 along the Tamiami Trail to adequately determine how
20 water is moving into the Park.
21 Q. Let me repeat my question, then. How do
22 these compare to the S-12 structures in terms of
23 their water related impacts?
24 A. It depends on which one of the S-12s we
25 are talking about. Some of the S-12s have very
148
1 direct openings into the slough. Others of them have
2 a little sill up in the front of them. In all cases
3 they cut across the old Tamiami Canal so the water
4 tends to flow not only through the structures but
5 also laterally to the east and west along the old
6 Tamiami Canal and then enter in through the culverts.
7 So I am not a hydrologist. I know that the amount of
8 water coming through the S-12 structures is generally
9 greater than the amount of water simply because they
10 are much wider than these individual culverts. But I
11 don't know what percentage actually goes through an
12 individual culvert compared to what goes through a
13 particular S-12 structure.
14 Q. Just to be clear then, the water goes
15 first through the S-12 structures, then it goes
16 through the culverts underneath the Tamiami Trail?
17 A. No. It can go through the S-12 structures
18 directly into the Park.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. Or it can move laterally, the S-12
21 structures are transected or bisected across, I won't
22 say the center but they are bisected at a certain
23 level with the old Tamiami Canal which allows a
24 certain amount of that water to go to, in lateral
25 directions.
149
1 Q. East and west?
2 A. East and west.
3 Q. As some of the water goes through the S-12
4 structures and then some of it would also filter down
5 east or west and go through these culverts into the
6 Park?
7 A. That's correct.
8 MR. HYDE: We will label the next document
9 50, Bates number 1169735.
10 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 50 was marked
11 for identification)
12 BY MR. HYDE:
13 Q. Dr. Jones, what is Exhibit 50?
14 A. This is a site location of the South
15 Florida Water Management District Everglades National
16 Park FIU water quality monitoring network for Florida
17 Bay and the lower West Coast, from Whitewater Bay to
18 Lostmans River.
19 Q. Are these data collection points depicted
20 by fat periods?
21 A. They are depicted by little red dots which
22 you can tell by the color rendition here.
23 Q. Is this part of an ongoing study to
24 monitor the water quality in Florida Bay?
25 A. Yes, it is.
150
1 MR. HYDE: We will label the next one 51,
2 Bates number 1169858 through 862.
3 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 51 was marked
4 for identification)
5 BY MR. HYDE:
6 Q. Let me back up for a moment. When you
7 were talking about the transects that ran south of
8 the culverts, you used the term scallop.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When I think of the term scallop I think
11 of it as something sort of scooping something out.
12 Are you referring to it in that sense, causing some
13 erosion, or did you have some other distinctive
14 meaning that you were attaching to that term?
15 A. I have another distinctive meaning.
16 Q. Could you explain what that is?
17 A. I was thinking more of a scalloped edge to
18 a dress or whatever, where you have that meaning
19 scalloping (indicating), not a feature in the
20 sediment or the soil.
21 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit 51. Do you
22 recognize this document?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Did you prepare it?
25 A. No, I did not.
151
1 Q. Do you know what this document depicts?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. What is that?
4 A. This represents the sampling, peat
5 sampling that we did, the soil sampling that we did
6 on February 7, 1989.
7 Q. This was a soil sampling within the Park?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And these are two transects south of the
10 S-12C and S-12D structures?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Are there any other transects being run
13 there? It looks like there might be but I can't
14 tell.
15 A. No. There are some individual samples
16 taken near two of these culverts, sample 13 and
17 samples 14 and 15 were collected in a lateral from
18 the, between S-12D and S-12D.
19 Q. For what purpose were those two lateral
20 samples taken?
21 A. To look at some of this scalloping that I
22 had indicated. One of the samples which I can't tell
23 you without looking at the data or I believe it is
24 probably in the field notes that are attached, which
25 one was within one of the vegetatively damaged
152
1 scallops and which one was outside of it or which set
2 of samples. These just represent sample locations,
3 it does not represent that's where I took an
4 individual sample.
5 Q. But you were performing those two
6 particular samples to test or see what the scalloping
7 effect was having?
8 A. Not really to test what effect it was
9 having. It was something that we had noticed when we
10 were flying over in the helicopter. We had
11 predominantly thought we were going to look at the
12 effects of the S-12 structures and it turned out that
13 there was significant damage associated with the
14 culverts also.
15 Q. Did you take 20 samples then I take it
16 from these numbers, 20?
17 A. There were 20 stations. We took many more
18 samples than 20.
19 Q. How would one determine the location of
20 these stations?
21 A. I believe that if you look at the
22 additional pages, that have 1s, 2s, 3s on there,
23 these are Dan Scheidt's field notes again, that there
24 would be a series of coordinates from the Loran
25 indicating what the location was.
153
1 Q. What did you learn as a result of
2 performing this work?
3 A. This was one of the earlier transects that
4 we ran and it generated some of the figures that we
5 have already spoken about today or already identified
6 today. The data was used, I should say, the data
7 from this sample collection was used along with data
8 from subsequent sample collections in preparing a
9 number of those graphs.
10 Q. Do you recall how far this transect south
11 of the S-12C structure went into the Park?
12 A. Approximately 16 kilometers. I won't, you
13 know, without going back again, there is a series of,
14 I know we have already seen them and identified them
15 today as, here were the locations and here's how many
16 kilometers they were south of the S-12 structure. So
17 approximately 16 kilometers.
18 Q. Were you trying to determine whether there
19 was a nutrient gradient south of the structures?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What did you determine in that regard?
22 A. There is a nutrient gradient south of the
23 structures.
24 Q. Do you recall how far that nutrient
25 gradient extended into the Park?
154
1 A. Based on this particular sampling?
2 Q. Yes. Just on this sampling first.
3 A. No, there is no cut of data that I can
4 remember that says exactly on this. But with
5 subsequent sampling.
6 Q. What subsequent sampling are you referring
7 to?
8 A. We have run this transect, I have run this
9 transect a number of times. I am sorry I can't be
10 more defined than a number of. I would have to try
11 and somehow go back and count every time that we were
12 on there, but it is probably approaching a dozen
13 times now that we have run this transect.
14 Q. Is that nutrient front graphically
15 depicted anywhere?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is that in your documents somewhere?
18 A. We have already gone through it once
19 today.
20 Q. I don't recall a graphic depiction of it.
21 Can you describe what it would have looked like?
22 A. You asked me the question about the
23 triangles and solid circles.
24 Q. That's what you meant by graphic?
25 A. Yes.
155
1 Q. As opposed to not a map or anything that
2 show zones of influence or anything?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay.
5 I take it that the following pages are,
6 that you alluded to earlier, just Mr. Scheidt's field
7 notes?
8 A. Field notes and observations, yes.
9 MR. HYDE: The next document will be No.
10 52, it is Bates number 1169869 through 876.
11 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 52 was marked
12 for identification)
13 BY MR. HYDE:
14 Q. Do you recognize this document, Dr. Jones?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. The first page appears to be nothing more
17 than a cover fax to you. Whose notes are these in
18 the subsequent pages?
19 A. Dan Scheidt's.
20 Q. Are they field notes?
21 A. Yes, they are.
22 Q. Do you know what they are field notes of?
23 A. Yes, they are a sampling along one of the
24 transects.
25 I would think it would be into Everglades
156
1 National Park but without actually looking up the
2 coordinates and seeing where they map out to be, I
3 can't really say. The only indication would be that
4 there were 16 stations, and being that that is a
5 number of samples along the S-12C transects, that
6 would indicate to me that that would be that
7 particular location.
8 Q. Are these Loran coordinates that are
9 indicated at each of these stations?
10 A. Yes, at this time the only thing available
11 was Loran.
12 Q. Was this part of that ongoing series of
13 studies that you have been engaging in?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Bates page 1169870, the top of the page,
16 is that 8/6/90?
17 A. Yes, it looks like it.
18 Q. That's the documents for a while.
19 MR. HYDE: Off the record.
20 (Discussion off the record)
21 MR. HYDE: On the record.
22 BY MR. HYDE:
23 Q. Dr. Jones, as I am sure you well know, you
24 are going to be an expert witness on behalf of the
25 United States in the Everglades SWIM Plan proceeding,
157
1 and certainly the primary purpose of this deposition
2 is for me to ascertain what expert opinions you
3 intend to testify about at that final hearing.
4 And you have previously prepared a couple
5 of documents or at least assisted in the preparation
6 of a couple of documents and I would like to first
7 identify them and get into them in a more substantive
8 way.
9 Let's label this one as 53.
10 (Jones Deposition Exhibit 53 was marked
11 for identification)
12 BY MR. HYDE:
13 Q. Dr. Jones, do you recognize what has been
14 labeled Exhibit No. 53?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. What is that?
17 A. That is a declaration that was prepared
18 for a motion for summary judgment, I believe.
19 Q. Is that your signature on page 11 of that
20 document?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. This document was prepared a couple of
23 years ago in 1990, correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. This document sets forth a series of
158
1 opinions that you have. Have you abandoned any of
2 the opinions that are set forth in this document?
3 A. No, I have not.
4 Q. Have you updated or modified them in any
5 way?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 MR. HYDE: I think that I would like to
8 label the next document 54, the top of the page says,
9 Dr. Ronald D. Jones, Supplemental Summary of
10 Testimony/Opinions. I think what everyone has in
11 their file is a former document that looked just like
12 that. So why don't we label that one 54, the old one.
13 MS. PONZOLI: You have Government Exhibit
14 8 C you want labeled as Jones 54?
15 MR. HYDE: Yes.
16 MS. PONZOLI: The one we gave you this
17 morning with some editorial changes you want as Jones
18 what?
19 MR. HYDE: 55.
20 MS. PONZOLI: Do you have copies of that
21 for us?
22 MR. HYDE: Yes, I am just about to pass
23 them out.
24 (Jones Deposition Exhibits 54 and 55 were
25 marked for identification)
159
1 MS. PONZOLI: I think you should know, Mr.
2 Hyde, that to the extent that the petitioners intend
3 to make mercury cycling in the Everglades an issue in
4 this litigation and to the extent that they make
5 chemical treatment for phosphorus removal an issue in
6 this litigation, the United States will reserve its
7 right to elicit opinions from Dr. Jones on those
8 issues also.
9 MR. HYDE: I understand. You probably
10 should have directed that more to Mr. Sams than to
11 me, however.
12 MS. PONZOLI: I don't want someone to say
13 I can not use this witness for those purposes because
14 it wasn't made clear, so from the beginning I want to
15 be clear on that point.
16 BY MR. HYDE:
17 Q. Dr. Jones, would you identify Exhibit 54,
18 please?
19 A. It is supplemental summary of testimony
20 and opinions of Dr. Ronald D. Jones.
21 Q. Do you recall when that was prepared,
22 roughly?
23 A. I am sorry, I do not.
24 MS. PONZOLI: Dr. Jones has revealed to me
25 when I showed this to him in preparation for this
160
1 deposition that he does not recall ever having seen
2 this document and that is why you have one with some
3 editorial changes to it.
4 Q. Would you then identify for me what has
5 been labeled as Exhibit No. 55?
6 A. 55 is the version of what is marked
7 Government Exhibit 8 C or Jones 54, and it is a
8 version after I reviewed Jones 54 and made some
9 editorial changes, no substantial changes --
10 substantive changes.
11 Q. I hurriedly went through it today. I
12 think I found the changes that you are referring to.
13 I wanted to make sure that I had seen the same
14 things.
15 But in the third paragraph, third indented
16 paragraph, I think you have changed the phosphorus
17 gradient to extend from 8 kilometers to 6 kilometers,
18 would that be correct?
19 A. That's correct, there was a typographical
20 error in there which said 8 kilometers.
21 Q. That is the only change I see in that
22 paragraph.
23 The next paragraph you deleted the phrase
24 "do not" and before the phrase "cannot" in the first
25 line. That's the only change I see in that
161
1 paragraph.
2 MS. PONZOLI: I think there are more, Mr.
3 Hyde, in both of those. Shall I just have him tell
4 you what we believe they are?
5 MR. HYDE: Sure.
6 BY MR. HYDE:
7 Q. If you can could do that that would be
8 helpful.
9 A. There is a change in the first paragraph,
10 where it says, "phosphorus is the limiting factor" in
11 the Jones 54, in Jones 55 it says, "phosphorus is the
12 key limiting factor."
13 There must be a typo, spelling, or that
14 excess is back. The word "impacts," "as a result of
15 excess phosphorus," in the third paragraph down, it
16 now says, "as a result of excess phosphorus" rather
17 than, "as a result of excess phosphorus impacts."
18 Q. So it should be "excess phosphorus
19 impacts" or just "excess phosphorus"?
20 A. Whatever is in Jones 55 is what it should
21 be. I am just trying to point out the changes
22 between Jones 54 and Jones 55.
23 Q. I got you.
24 A. And I am sorry, because going back and
25 forth, I edited by cutting words out and sometimes
162
1 adding them back in in different places.
2 Damage was removed from macrophyte, what
3 we had was, "altered periphyton, macrophytes,
4 invasion of," eliminated "exotics," it was "invasion
5 of cattails and other nutrient tolerant macrophytes,"
6 so the word exotics was eliminated from there.
7 Then the only other change was the 6
8 kilometers as you pointed out, the 8 goes to 6.
9 And then again, the "do not and" was
10 eliminated to read just, "cannot account for all of
11 the displacement" under the fourth bullet.
12 And the words "all of" were replaced after
13 "for."
14 In the fifth bullet, "phosphorus cycling"
15 was removed as the first two words making the new
16 sentence start with "bacteria."
17 There was an additional change in that the
18 last sentence now reads, "This opinion is based on
19 AP," or alkaline phosphatase, "analysis of Everglades
20 water and review of the scientific literature," and
21 the remainder of the material has been eliminated
22 from that sentence.
23 Q. Dr. Jones, would you regard Exhibits 53
24 and 55 to be a fairly comprehensive summary of your
25 basic opinions?
163
1 A. I don't think I would use it as, in my
2 meaning of the word comprehensive, in that there are
3 other opinions since the preparation of this,
4 particularly 53, there are other processes I have
5 examined, particularly with respect to mercury, I
6 have done a considerably greater amount of research
7 in the EAA and in the EPA which have, they bolster
8 some of the opinions and then there are also
9 additional opinions.
10 Q. Can you summarize for me what these
11 additional opinions would be? I want you to leave
12 mercury aside for the minute. But you said you did
13 other EAA and EPA research. Is that correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And you intend to offer some expert
16 opinions on the basis of that or as a result of that
17 research, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And those opinions are not necessarily
20 reflected in either Exhibit 53 or Exhibit 55?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Can we enumerate what those opinions would
23 be?
24 A. Not from these particular two documents, I
25 don't think.
164
1 Q. Is there some other document that you
2 would like to refer to?
3 A. The designation of expert witness
4 probably. If I am not mistaken there are more.
5 Q. What are those other areas?
6 A. They are listed all in here as individual
7 statements but things such as the biological nature
8 of the Everglades ecosystem. I would be prepared to
9 offer opinions on that, but that's a very broad
10 topic.
11 MR. HYDE: Let me interrupt here for a
12 second.
13 Suzan, is this from your original witness
14 designation in this matter?
15 MS. PONZOLI: Yes, it is.
16 MR. HYDE: Maybe we should just attach
17 that as an exhibit too.
18 MS. PONZOLI: This one is mine and has my
19 notes on it. You can just refer to page 7 of the
20 United States' original designation.
21 MR. HYDE: That would be fine.
22 BY MR. HYDE:
23 Q. Would there be any other broad categories
24 of opinion besides those listed here on page 7 of the
25 United States' designation, Exhibit 53 or Exhibit 55?
165
1 MS. PONZOLI: And the ones that I have
2 listed today, the mercury cycling and the chemical
3 treatment to the extent the petitioners include those
4 in these proceedings which is frankly not altogether
5 clear to the United States what you intend to do.
6 MR. HYDE: Okay.
7 BY MR. HYDE:
8 Q. With that qualification are there any
9 other broad categories that you intend to offer any
10 testimony about?
11 A. To the best of my knowledge, this sums up
12 to this point what I have been asked to do. Whether
13 there are between now and trial additional things I
14 am requested to consider or examine, I don't know.
15 Q. But to the best of your knowledge, that's
16 it for now?
17 A. At the moment, this pretty well sums it
18 up.
19 Q. Let's begin with Exhibit 55. The first
20 opinion listed there is that phosphorus is the key
21 limiting factor in the Everglades system, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. What do you mean by that phrase?
24 MS. PONZOLI: I think we should be clear
25 that these are, while these are, he has edited these
166
1 opinions, they were obviously drafted by someone
2 else. So let's be honest about that.
3 MR. HYDE: I understand.
4 BY MR. HYDE:
5 Q. Do you differ with that or do you take
6 issue with that phrase?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. What does that mean to you, then?
9 A. It means to me that of all of the
10 environmental factors present in the Everglades at
11 the moment, and I would distinguish here from
12 geologic factors that sort of define the Everglades,
13 meaning, say, for instance, hydrology or the fact
14 that it is a very flat area and it has so many feet
15 per mile type of a slope to it or anything like that,
16 that the key feature meaning the feature that really
17 makes the Everglades unique is that it is a
18 phosphorus, extremely phosphorus limited system.
19 Q. What are the other limiting factors that
20 are present in the Everglades ecosystem?
21 A. Limiting factors?
22 Q. Yes. You said this one is the key one.
23 What are the other ones?
24 A. That depends a little bit on a person's
25 definition of what is limiting and what organisms we
167
1 are talking about. If you were talking about wading
2 birds, for instance, a key limiting factor may very
3 well be the abundance of small fishes for them to
4 feed on. So it is a very broad type of an analogy
5 here.
6 Q. Bear with me for a moment. What are the
7 other general limiting factors for the Everglades
8 ecosystem? You have identified one, prey species for
9 wading birds. What are some of the other major ones
10 that come to mind?
11 A. There would be, other parameters that have
12 to relate are availability of nutrient, other
13 nutrients in the system which have been less well
14 defined that we don't know about, for instance,
15 silicon or iron or maybe even nitrogen under some
16 circumstances.
17 Q. So those might also be limiting factors,
18 correct?
19 A. They might be. There is very, very little
20 evidence that indicates that of the nutrients that
21 anything other than phosphorus is a limiting factor
22 at the moment in the Everglades.
23 Q. What about non-chemical limiting factors?
24 MS. PONZOLI: I am going to object to his
25 offering opinions on things that are not the opinion
168
1 he intends to offer at trial.
2 MR. HYDE: Suzan, he said phosphorus is
3 the key limiting factor which by his own admission is
4 only one of many. It is the primary one, I take him
5 to be saying. So I am just trying to figure out what
6 the other ones are.
7 A. I don't believe there are very many. I
8 would not consider, for instance, hydroperiod to be a
9 limiting factor in the Everglades.
10 Q. Why not?
11 A. The system in the Everglades is very, very
12 adept at what naturally occurs. We have dry seasons
13 and we have wet seasons and things like this and the
14 plant communities, animal communities are quite able
15 to respond to changes in water depth.
16 Q. Isn't there a more or less regular cycle
17 of hydroperiod, though, in the Everglades?
18 A. Yes, but that doesn't necessarily put it
19 in the same category as limiting factor. Limiting
20 factor is quite different than a normal cycle and how
21 you alter that cycle. That does not place a
22 limitation on the system like a nutrient or a key
23 component of the system.
24 Q. Would you define for me what you mean when
25 you say limiting factor?
169
1 A. In this particular case I would be
2 referring to something that limits the biological
3 production, productivity of the Everglades system.
4 Q. Would that be a generally accepted
5 scientific definition of that term in this context?
6 A. I believe so.
7 Q. Doesn't hydroperiod have some relationship
8 to the biological productivity of that system?
9 A. Not necessarily.
10 Q. You mean if you don't have a drought you
11 are not or if you do have a drought you are going to
12 have some impacts on biological productivity?
13 A. You may very well increase the
14 productivity of one species while you decrease the
15 productivity of another.
16 Q. Might that not also be true of phosphorus
17 as well?
18 A. I am sorry?
19 Q. Isn't that true about phosphorus as well?
20 A. You are going to have to put that -- I
21 don't --
22 Q. Couldn't phosphorus both increase and
23 decrease biological productivity?
24 A. An increasing level of phosphorus might
25 decrease biological productivity?
170
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. It would be very unlikely, I can't think
3 of a situation where that would be the case unless
4 phosphorus was already so high that the system were
5 saturated. So under a very highly polluted condition
6 you may not see an increase or an additional
7 increase.
8 Q. Isn't the United States saying or aren't
9 the government agencies saying that the, that
10 phosphorus has resulted in a decrease in density and
11 diversity of benthic macroinvertebrates?
12 A. That is a small component of the thing,
13 and that is looking at a particular number of
14 invertebrates at certain places.
15 When we talk about basic ecosystem
16 function here or ecosystem fertility, you can't just
17 make a direct comparison on up, up or down the food
18 chain, if you will.
19 Q. Then when you say something is a limiting
20 factor, what is it limiting?
21 A. Generally under the circumstances that we
22 talk about for ecosystem productivity or whatever we
23 are talking about, its primary ability to limit how
24 carbon is cycled in the system.
25 Q. How does phosphorus limit how carbon is
171
1 cycled?
2 A. Without phosphorus being a key element,
3 organisms, if they don't have phosphorus are unable
4 to utilize carbon as an energy source, so they can be
5 limited. Plants would be unable to utilize the
6 energy from the sun and produce carbon so they would
7 be limited.
8 Q. How does phosphorus specifically act as a
9 limiting factor in the Everglades? Can you break
10 this down by species, for example?
11 A. I do this in about three weeks of
12 lectures. I don't know that you want --
13 MS. PONZOLI: Mr. Hyde, your experts said
14 phosphorus was a limiting factor. I don't really
15 understand what our debate is about here. In Dr.
16 Richardson's deposition and in his supported
17 scientists, you may go on and do this but it would
18 seem that we have four days to do Dr. Jones and we
19 are spending time on things that there doesn't seem
20 to be a lot of dispute about.
21 MR. HYDE: That may be, there is no
22 dispute about phosphorus being a limiting factor, but
23 he obviously has engaged in some sort of comparative
24 analyses here when he says there is a key limiting
25 factor which means he compared it to something else
172
1 or some other things. And I am just trying to get a
2 good handle on what he means by limiting factor so I
3 can understand how he determined it was a key
4 limiting factor. That's what I am driving at.
5 I am not disputing the fact that some
6 people may be in general agreement about phosphorus
7 being a limiting factor in the Everglades ecosystem.
8 I am just trying to figure out what he meant by its
9 being the key limiting factor as opposed to others.
10 But this is my deposition. If I want to
11 waste my own time, let me waste my time the way I
12 want to.
13 MS. PONZOLI: I just don't want to come to
14 the end of four days and people say they didn't have
15 time to ask questions.
16 So the pending question is, what does he
17 mean by key or what does he mean by comparison? What
18 is the pending question, Mr. Hyde?
19 BY MR. HYDE:
20 Q. I believe you stated a few moments ago
21 that limiting factor had a relationship to the, I
22 guess, biological productivity of the system.
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And so when you say something acts as a
25 limiting factor it is limiting in some way that
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1 biological productivity, correct?
2 A. It places a control on it.
3 Q. What is the control that phosphorus places
4 on the Everglades ecosystem?
5 A. I think I just answered that in that it
6 seems to be the controlling factor in the manner in
7 which carbon is cycled in the system.
8 Q. I seem to be going maybe in circles or we
9 appear to be going in circles to me.
10 It limits how carbon is cycled, but again,
11 so what? It limits how carbon is cycled. What is
12 the significance of that?
13 A. Carbon is the, it is the energy source of
14 everything else. The system, the ecosystem is based
15 on a number of interrelated components, and carbon is
16 the sort of one key or universal thing between all of
17 the different trophic levels in an ecosystem.
18 And if phosphorus or any other nutrient
19 were to change the way or alter the amount of carbon
20 that is available for cycling within that system,
21 then that component would be key to determining the,
22 if you will, the basic trophic dynamics of that
23 system.
24 Q. How does phosphorus limit carbon in this
25 ecosystem?
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1 A. On a number of levels. Again, I already
2 pointed this out, that is first off it can limit the
3 amount of carbon from the atmosphere, inorganic
4 carbon in the form of CO2 that can be incorporated by
5 plants, and it can also limit the rate of
6 decomposition, microbial decomposition of that
7 carbon, how it is cycled once the plants die and
8 decay in the system.
9 Q. How does it limit atmospheric carbon
10 dioxide?
11 A. The same way it would in a corn field, if
12 you didn't put any fertilizer on it and had the soil
13 fertility very low, if you didn't put any phosphorus,
14 nitrogen in there, the plants would be unable to take
15 full advantage of the photosynthetic energy and fix
16 carbon from the atmosphere.
17 Q. So phosphorus makes plants better carbon
18 fixers?
19 A. Phosphorus is a fertilizer, it is a form
20 of things that we use in fertilizer.
21 Q. Does it make them a better carbon fixer
22 then?
23 A. It has a potential to do that.
24 Q. How does phosphorus impact upon microbial
25 decomposition?
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1 A. Again, if the microorganisms are limited
2 by the phosphorus availability, if there is not
3 enough phosphorus for them to do their task as
4 remineralizers or function in their niche in the
5 environment, then it would affect the rate at which
6 those particular microbial processes are taking
7 place.
8 Q. Your opinion in this regard is founded
9 apparently on certain information which is reflected
10 on Exhibit 55.
11 The first thing indicated here is data
12 reflected in the study examination of phosphorus
13 cycling in the Shark River Slough, is that correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. The second category is, I assume that
16 means to refer to your CV for more information about
17 that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The second general category is work on
20 nitrogen at prior positions.
21 Could you give me in brief summary what
22 that work was?
23 A. My career prior to reentering Florida
24 predominantly dealt with nitrogen as a limiting
25 factor of ecosystem development, carbon cycling, et
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1 cetera. And so when I first came to the State of
2 Florida, returned to the State of Florida and started
3 working in the Everglades system, I was under the
4 assumption or my working hypothesis was that nitrogen
5 was a key limiting nutrient in the Everglades
6 ecosystem.
7 After spending a number of, it didn't take
8 very long, a number of weeks studying nitrogen levels
9 in the Everglades system, came to the realization
10 that there were ample quantities of nitrogen around
11 and that indeed we were looking at everything that
12 would make the Everglades a classically phosphorus
13 limited system.
14 Q. As opposed to a nitrogen limited system?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Are you continuing to analyze or ponder
17 the issue of whether nitrogen itself is a limiting
18 factor in the Everglades?
19 A. I am continuing to analyze the role of
20 nitrogen in the Everglades. The only places where
21 nitrogen appears to be a limiting nutrient in the
22 Everglades are in the areas that