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2 JOB TITLE/DATE: SUGAR 1/13/93
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1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
2 DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA,
a Florida Agricultural Cooperative Marketing
4 Association; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and
WEDGEWORTH FARMS, INC.,
5 and
FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; UNITED STATES
6 SUGAR CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC.,
and
7 FLORIDA FRUIT and VEGETABLE ASSOCIATION,
LEWIS POPE FARMS, W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC.,
8 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., Case Nos: 92-3038
92-3039
9 Petitioners, 92-3040
-against-
10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT,
an Agency of the State of Florida
11 Respondent,
and
12 THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, MICCOSUKEE TRIBE
OF INDIANS, the FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL
13 REGULATION, the FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, et al.
Respondent - Intervenors.
14 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
An Administrative Heating held at Tompkins
15
County Courthouse, Ithaca, New York, on the 13th day
16
of January, 1993, commencing at 9:25 AM.
17
18 BEFORE: CZERENDA COURT REPORTING, INC
164 Court Street
19 Binghamton, New York 13901
BARBARA L. HEURING
20 Shorthand Reporter
Notary Public
21 Binghamton - (607) 723-5820
(800) 633-9149
22
23
WITNESS: DOUGLAS HAITH
24
2
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3 HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS; 123 South Calhoun
4 Street, PO Box 6526, Tallahassee, Florida 32314;
5 Counsel for Sugar Can growers Copperative of
6 FLorida, Roth Farms, Inc, and Wedgeworth Farms, Inc;
7 GARY V. PERKO, ESQ, of Counsel.
8
9 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE,
10 Environment & Natural Resources Division, General
11 Litigation Section; PO Box 663, Washington, DC
12 20044-0663; Counsel for United States;
13 STEPHEN BARTELL, ESQ, of Counsel; GEOFFREY GARVER,
14 ESQ, of Counsel.
15
16
17 S T I P U L A T I O N S
18
19 It is stipulated by and between the parties
20 hereto that the filing of the deposition is waived;
21 that the deposition may be signed before any Notary
22 Public; and that all objections, except as to the
23 form of the question, are reserved to the time of
24 the trial.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 3
1 D O U G L A S H A I T H, having been called as
2 a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows:
3 EXAMINATION BY
4 MR. GARVER:
5 Q. Good morning. Would you please state
6 your name and address for the record?
7 A. My name is Douglas A. Haith. My address
8 is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
10 Q. Dr. Haith, my name is Geoff Garver, I
11 represent the United States in this proceeding,
12 which is the Sugar Cane Cooperative of Florida, et
13 al, versus the United States -- I'm sorry, versus
14 South Florida Water Management District, Florida
15 Department of Administrative Hearing, cases 92-3038,
16 92-3039 and 92-3040. With me today is Stephen
17 Bartell, who's also with the United States
18 Department of Justice. Dr. Haith, have you ever
19 been deposed before?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Basically, what this deposition will
22 involve is I will be asking you a series of
23 questions to try and find out information you may
24 have on facts that are at issue in this proceeding.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 4
1 You should give me your honest and complete answers
2 to my questions. And if you don't understand any
3 question I ask, which is not at all unlikely, given
4 the nature of this deposition, just please let me
5 know and I'll try to rephrase my question and get
6 back on track.
7 Dr. Haith, you've been designated by the
8 Sugar Cane Cooperative as an expert witness who will
9 testify on nonpoint source pollution models, water
10 resource and environmental modeling and
11 environmental and agricultural systems analysis, is
12 that consistent with your understanding?
13 A. Yes. Although I guess I understood I was
14 a potential witness, but yes.
15 Q. Other than the areas I just mentioned,
16 are there any other areas as to which you may be or
17 are a potential witness in this proceeding?
18 A. Not that I know of.
19 Q. Have you ever been an expert witness in a
20 legal proceeding before?
21 A. No -- no, I haven't.
22 Q. Have you ever given live sworn testimony
23 in a court of a legal proceeding?
24 A. Not that I remember, seems like the sort
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 5
1 of thing I would remember, I don't think so.
2 Q. What have you done to prepare for this
3 deposition?
4 A. I reviewed the documents that I had
5 sent -- well, my reports I had sent to the
6 attorneys, read through my notes again and looked
7 over the two principal documents, which I've
8 reviewed the IFAS it's referred to, and another
9 report they'd done, a literature review they had
10 done, I looked over those documents.
11 Q. Have you read the amended renotice of
12 taking deposition for your deposition?
13 A. I don't know. I got a -- let's see, I
14 got a notice about the deposition where it would be
15 in Florida, is that the one you're referring to?
16 Q. I'm referring actually to the one that
17 said that the deposition would be here in Ithaca.
18 A. No, I have not seen that.
19 Q. You've not seen that.
20 MR. PERKO: For the record, I
21 discussed it with Dr. Haith on the phone,
22 we basically used the one that was
23 originally sent in the deposition in
24 Florida, and he sent all the documents to
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 6
1 me and I sent them to you.
2 Q. Are you familiar with the list of
3 documents that were requested in connection with
4 this deposition?
5 A. Yes. I think you did fax me that list,
6 yes, I saw that list of documents.
7 Q. Have you produced all the documents you
8 have in your possession that were responsive to that
9 list of documents?
10 A. I think so.
11 Q. I just would like --
12 A. It was a very inclusive list, and
13 literally what I did, I went to my files and I found
14 everything that I thought could be related to it,
15 that's why I say I think so. I was trying to get as
16 many as I could find.
17 Q. I'd just like to briefly go through this
18 list, and if you could just tell me in general what
19 documents you can recall producing under each
20 category?
21 A. You'd actually like the names of the
22 documents or the general description of the
23 documents?
24 Q. A general description is fine, if I want
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 7
1 more detail I'll let you know. The first category
2 is all documents that describe, explain or relate to
3 nonpoint source pollution models that the witness
4 has developed, relied upon or utilized in
5 investigating, studying, analyzing the Everglades
6 protection area or Everglades agricultural area.
7 Can you just describe what documents fit under that
8 category?
9 A. I'm trying to be a little bit careful
10 with the reading. I guess that is pretty broad.
11 Yeah, I sent documents that describe models that I
12 had constructed, so there were, for example, journal
13 articles that describe a model, phase in the soil
14 and number of models on water sheds. I also sent a
15 document with area manuals showing certain models
16 that had been developed for watershed studies.
17 Also, a report, a PA report that had models in it
18 that we had developed for analyzing nonpoint source
19 pollution problems.
20 Q. In what way did you rely on the documents
21 you just referred to in investigating, studying or
22 analyzing the Everglades protection area or
23 Everglades agricultural area?
24 A. I think the only extent I relied on those
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 8
1 particular documents was in my recommendations that
2 modeling studies should be done to evaluate the best
3 management practices. And as much I was aware what
4 models could do and had been done since I developed
5 those kind of models, I used that kind of general
6 recommendations to make the recommendations that
7 modeling should be done.
8 Q. The second set of documents was all
9 documents that describe, explain or relate to water
10 resource and/or environmental modeling the witness
11 has performed, including but not limited to such
12 modeling the witness has performed with respect to
13 the Everglades agricultural area or Everglades
14 protection area. And I guess I'll qualify this
15 category in that by agreement with counsel for the
16 co-op we agree we were only looking for documents
17 relating to water resource or environmental modeling
18 relied upon or utilized in investigating, studying
19 or analyzing Everglades areas.
20 A. Yeah. I understand that correctly. I
21 don't have any documents like that, I don't think I
22 sent any documents, I think that's correct.
23 Q. Again, with the same qualification on
24 this next category, we're only looking for documents
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 9
1 relating to that you relied on or utilized in
2 investigating, analyzing or studying the Everglades
3 protection area or Everglades agricultural area.
4 The next category was documents that explain, relate
5 to environmental agricultural systems analysis the
6 witness has performed.
7 A. I think probably in that category I sent
8 notes or the courses which I teach which deal in a
9 broad way with both environmental and agricultural
10 systems analysis, and really they were describing my
11 general knowledge, the general -- not specific to
12 the Everglades, but my general knowledge in those
13 areas, and those were areas which I would drew upon.
14 Q. The next category was all documents
15 regarding Lake Okeechopee water quality or water
16 quantity including but not limited to those issues
17 raised in this proceeding.
18 A. I didn't send anything there, although in
19 retrospect, I see the two reports that we brought
20 today, the IFAS report and so on which I had in my
21 possession, of course, that you deal with that
22 subject area.
23 Q. The next category was any and all
24 documents utilized or relied upon in preparing,
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 10
1 formulating, developing, authoring, co-authoring,
2 reviewing anticipated expert in this action?
3 A. That was just my notes and correspondence
4 in those two reports.
5 MR. PERKO: I'd just like to
6 clarify for the record, Dr. Haith has
7 been listed as a potential rebuttal
8 witness, so it's not clear at this time
9 what testimony, if any, he will provide.
10 These documents that he's referring to to
11 response to number five are documents
12 that he's prepared thus far, there may be
13 further documents prepared in the future.
14 If that's the case, we'll provide them to
15 you.
16 MR. GARVER: For the record, it
17 still escapes me how this witness can be
18 a rebuttal witness when your clients are
19 the ones that filed the petition raising
20 any issues, but we don't need to take
21 that up here.
22 Q. Dr. Haith, how are you presently
23 employed?
24 A. I'm a professor of agricultural and
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 11
1 biological engineering at Cornell University.
2 Q. How long have you been employed in that
3 capacity?
4 A. Well, I've been a faculty member at
5 Cornell since 1971. I've been a full professor
6 there since 19 -- I don't know, '83, '81, something
7 like that.
8 Q. What were your positions before you
9 became a full professor?
10 A. Well, I was an associate professor before
11 that at Cornell and assistant professor, and then
12 there were positions prior to being at Cornell.
13 Q. Sticking with your processes at Cornell,
14 could you recall what periods during which you were
15 an assistant professor and then an associate
16 professor?
17 A. I think the assistant professor is '71
18 through '77, and I think I was an associate
19 professor '77 through '83. I'm not completely sure
20 about that, it could be '84 -- I'm pretty sure it's
21 '83.
22 Q. What's involved in making the transition
23 from assistant to associate professor and associate
24 professor to full professor?
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 12
1 A. When promoted from assistant professor to
2 associate professor, the main thing that's involved
3 there at Cornell is that's the point which you
4 obtain tenure. And obtaining tenure means -- well,
5 it means you essentially have a permanent job as
6 long as you continue to perform your duties, so
7 that's the significance of that promotion. The
8 promotion from associate professor to professor is a
9 promotion in which you've essentially demonstrated
10 your superior research as a teacher, so on and so
11 forth, and that's the most you can say about that.
12 You're an expert in your subject you teach and do
13 research, and you're a productive teacher and
14 researcher.
15 Q. Who makes the decision to make promotions
16 from associate to assistant and assistant to
17 professor (sic)?
18 A. There's a faculty committee first and
19 department chairman approves, and then there is an
20 external committee, external to the department that
21 has to prove, then the dean of the college approves
22 of it and then the president and board of trustees
23 of the university.
24 Q. Are you a faculty member in the
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 13
1 engineering college?
2 A. Yes. It's a -- yes, I am.
3 Q. And are you also a professor in the
4 college of agriculture and life sciences?
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. How does that dual faculty position work?
7 A. It is complicated. The department that
8 I'm in, the department of agricultural engineering
9 actually sits in two different colleges. Partly the
10 title is agricultural, but because we offer
11 engineering degrees, we're also in the engineering
12 department, so it follows we're faculty members in
13 both colleges, both in agriculture and engineering.
14 Q. Is there a particular department in the
15 college of engineering that you're associated with?
16 A. Well, actually, yeah. There is, first of
17 all, departments of agriculture and biological
18 engineering, because of an engineering degree we are
19 part of the college of engineering. I am, however,
20 also associated with the college or school of civil
21 and environmental engineering, which is just an
22 engineering department. So, that's just an
23 engineering department, not even to associate to
24 agriculture. Cornell is an interesting institution.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 14
1 It is part private -- you went to Cornell part
2 private, part state, so we have this administrative
3 structure from Cornell, they're almost unique. You
4 can be in a couple different colleges, couple
5 different departments.
6 Q. What were your duties during the period
7 when you were an assistant professor at Cornell?
8 A. I taught several different courses on
9 what we called systems analysis, water resource
10 systems analysis, environmental modeling, I advised
11 undergraduate students, I supervised graduate
12 students and did research for different agencies,
13 note papers, published reports.
14 Q. What agencies did you conduct research
15 for?
16 A. At that time, we did some research for
17 the Environmental Protection Agency, little bit
18 difficult to remember, Environmental Protection
19 Agency, certainly '71 through '77. US Department of
20 Interior, Rockerfeller Foundation, Department of
21 Agriculture. I'm sure there's others, but actually
22 I can't really remember anymore at that period of
23 time.
24 Q. What research were you conducting for the
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 15
1 Environmental Protection Agency during that period?
2 A. Part of that has to do with evaluating
3 soil and water conservation practices in determining
4 how effective they were in controlling nonpoint
5 source pollution. Although the time I was an
6 assistant professor, that was just the beginning of
7 that research. That research went on to into an
8 associate professor, but we were just starting that
9 research at that time.
10 Q. Was there any other research you did for
11 the EPA?
12 A. I don't think so. It is complicated,
13 though, because our research program over a number
14 of years has many, many sponsors and you're always
15 writing proposals and always trying to get money,
16 and I'd be hard pressed to remember all the sponsors
17 I have, but I think that is the only EPA-sponsored
18 research at that time.
19 Q. Do you recall what research you were
20 conducting for the interior department?
21 A. One thing I do remember was a study of
22 the impact of different land uses on nitrogen and
23 phosphorus in stream flow. Then I think that
24 agency -- again, this is at the end of the time I
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 16
1 was assistant professor. I was also organizing -- I
2 had a big project from them relating to developing
3 different types of nonpoint source models, models
4 having to do with nutrients, and I think that
5 started at that time, too.
6 Q. Any others for the Interior Department
7 that you can recall?
8 A. Not that I can remember.
9 Q. Do you recall what research you were
10 conducting for the Rockerfeller Site Foundation
11 Institution? I forgot what you said.
12 A. Rockerfeller Foundation. That was a
13 large interdisciplinary project we had at Cornell to
14 evaluate the role of nutrients, nitrogen,
15 phosphorous, relationship between those and
16 agriculture and pollution. I think particularly
17 nitrification, but it seems we were doing other
18 pollution problems, sort of a big umbrella project
19 to determine how agriculture was contributing these
20 nutrients to pollution problems and whatever. It
21 was economics and had to do with animal waste, some
22 of it had to do with crops and watersheds and so on.
23 Q. Do you recall what research you conducted
24 for the US Department of Agriculture during your
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 17
1 assistant professorship?
2 A. That's a little bit tougher because what
3 the Department of Agriculture does is, it provides
4 money to institutions like Cornell to fund a whole
5 series of small areas of projects, that professors
6 have you develop these small research projects and
7 you apply for funding throughout that mechanism, but
8 throughout my career I've dozens of those little
9 projects and I'm trying to remember -- I just
10 started doing those when I was assistant professor.
11 I think there was one that had to do with modeling
12 of nutrients on dairy farms. That may have been the
13 only one that I had at that point. Yeah, I think
14 so, modeling nutrients on dairy farms, I think that
15 was it.
16 Q. During your assistant professorship, did
17 any of the research you conducted involve any
18 agriculture or relate to any agriculture operations
19 in southern Florida?
20 A. No. At least I can't remember any. No,
21 I don't think so.
22 Q. I believe you stated you taught a course
23 in systems analysis at that time. What is involved
24 in systems analysis?
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 18
1 A. Boy, I should be able to explain that,
2 shouldn't I? Basically, it's the use of
3 mathematical models to try to evaluate alternative
4 solutions to problems, that's sort of a generic
5 description of it.
6 Q. And in the courses you taught during when
7 you were an assistant professor, was there any
8 particular types of problems or types of solutions
9 that your course related to?
10 A. Most of them were environmental problems.
11 And probably -- you see, what we did there were
12 systems analysis courses, but there was systems
13 analysis applied to and, in general, environmental
14 problems. Also, a substantial number of them,
15 though, were environmental problems in agriculture,
16 so probably those were the most common examples that
17 we would use in courses, dairy farms, for example;
18 watersheds that controlled nutrients going into
19 lake, for example, that kind of example.
20 Q. When you became an associate professor,
21 what were your responsibilities during the time you
22 were an associate professor?
23 A. They were essentially the same as the
24 responsibilities as assistant professor. There were
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 19
1 different directions in the research, there were
2 some new areas, different sponsors in the research,
3 still the same courses were taught.
4 Q. What were the new areas of research you
5 became involved in as associate professor?
6 A. We started doing research related to
7 things like sewage sludge, for example, waste water
8 treatment, pesticides. I hadn't worked in
9 pesticides as assistant professor, mostly nutrients,
10 but we expanded to work in pesticides. I think
11 those are the major areas.
12 Q. What type of research did you conduct
13 relating to sewage sludge?
14 A. Mainly had to do with the applying sewage
15 sludge to agriculture lands and evaluation of
16 whether or not these would cause pollution problems,
17 how they would affect plants and so on.
18 Q. What type of research did you conduct
19 with respect to waste water treatment?
20 A. Developing models that engineers could
21 use to determine what's the most effective waste
22 water treatment for a given water pollution problem.
23 Q. What types of factors are involved in
24 deciding what type of waste water treatment to use
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 20
1 for a particular pollution problem?
2 A. Well, the types of things we did mainly
3 had to do with dissolved oxygen problems in a river,
4 so the issue would be what is the desired level of
5 dissolved oxygen in the stream, and then under what
6 conditions does that have to be present. Those
7 determines in the standard you'd look at the sewage
8 treatment possibilities and what kind of processes
9 could effect the oxygen, the processes that would
10 move BOD and look at the relative economics of those
11 and relative efficiencies of those and see what
12 combinations give you the most economical treatment
13 to treat that specific oxygen standard, for example.
14 Q. That treatment with waste water
15 treatment, did that relate to waste water from
16 sewage treatment plants?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was it only sewage treatment plant waste
19 water?
20 A. In terms of waste water, yes. We've
21 always done related to animal manures, animal
22 wastes, but not those in terms of waste water. But
23 basically we're dealing with semi-solid material and
24 also not in terms of treatment of that other people
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 21
1 at Cornell that did work related to treatment,
2 but -- I'm sorry, I guess the answer to your
3 question is yes, that's the only waste water we did
4 research on.
5 Q. What research were you conducting with
6 respect to pesticides?
7 A. We were concerned with the quantities of
8 pesticides and runoff from agriculture lands, so at
9 that time we developed a model that would allow one
10 to be able to predict how much pesticide is lost in
11 runoff under different situations.
12 Q. What was involved in creating that model,
13 the pesticides model you just referred to?
14 A. That's a fairly complicated area. What
15 was basically involved is, first of all, developing
16 an understanding of these processes and these
17 processes related to both water, because it's the
18 water that works off the pesticides, so there's an
19 analysis and model -- well, first of all, how often
20 it rains, and when it rains how much runoff is
21 produced, how wet the soil becomes. And there's an
22 analysis of the properties of the pesticide, how
23 fast does it decay, to what point does it dissolve
24 the soil compounds, and basically it's a model of a
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 22
1 model that would estimate the pesticides that were
2 lost in any given situation.
3 Q. What type of information or data is
4 necessary to build the type of pesticide model you
5 just described?
6 MR. PERKO: I'm going to object
7 to relevance, I think we're straying away
8 from the issues of this case.
9 MR. GARVER: You can answer.
10 A. Do you mean the data to construct the
11 models or data to run the models?
12 Q. Let's start what data is necessary to
13 construct the models?
14 A. That's a little bit tricky because it
15 isn't so much -- I'm trying to think. It isn't so
16 much data you need to construct the models as it is
17 the understanding of the basic principles that's
18 involved. You need data, here's what you need, you
19 need data in order to test the models because as you
20 construct them, you need to know whether or
21 not -- whether they're working. So, you need to
22 have some measurements of pesticides in runoff so
23 you can tell whether or not your models work. A set
24 of data you need is somebody collected pesticide
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 23
1 data from fields from runoff.
2 Q. What data do you need to run the model?
3 A. To run the model, you need basic weather
4 data, daily temperatures and precipitation, you need
5 to know the properties of pesticide, half life and
6 something called the partition co-efficient of the
7 pesticide, you need to know soil properties, you
8 need to know when pesticides are applied.
9 Q. Have you constructed similar models
10 relating to nutrients?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Nutrients discharged from agriculture
13 lands?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do those models rely on the same or
16 require the same type of data to run?
17 A. Not exactly. Because for example,
18 pesticides degrade in the soil, so the concept of a
19 half life is very important for pesticides, but
20 nutrients behave quite a bit differently. For
21 example, nitrogen is depleted from the soil, but
22 it's depleted because plants take up the nitrogen or
23 nitrogen leaks through the soil or something like
24 that. Phosphorus is depleted, again, in a different
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 24
1 way in pesticides, so you need data to describe
2 that, but it is a very different type of data.
3 Q. With respect to phosphorus, what type of
4 data is required to show when you're running the
5 model what's happening to the phosphorus?
6 A. Well, several different things. One
7 thing that is very important in phosphorus is the
8 partitioning of it into dissolved and absorbed
9 forms, so you either need in a given situation the
10 actual measurement of those absorption parameters or
11 other parameters which you could then use to predict
12 the absorption. An example being pH in the soil and
13 with phosphorus there are problems related to the
14 change from organic to inorganic forms and
15 mineralization of it, so you need parameters
16 describing that type of phenomenon.
17 Q. During the time you were an associate
18 professor, who did you conduct -- who were you
19 conducting research for?
20 A. The sponsors.
21 Q. I'm sorry?
22 A. Continued the sponsorship with the
23 Environmental Protection Agency; and then the
24 National Science Foundation, supported some of that;
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 25
1 continued sponsorship with the Department of
2 Interior, associate professor, again; big research
3 project with New York State Department of
4 Environmental Conservation; continued support
5 through Department of Agriculture and Wildlife;
6 Norcross Wildlife Foundation, began some support of
7 research. Those are all that I remember.
8 Q. What research was the New York State
9 Department of Environmental Conservation sponsoring?
10 A. They were sponsoring research related to
11 phosphorus and nitrogen in stream flow from large
12 watersheds. Their sponsorship led us to develop a
13 fairly large-scale watershed model that would
14 account for all sources of nitrogen and phosphorus
15 draining into stream flow from a large watershed.
16 Q. Did that model have a particular name?
17 A. Yeah, it's called GWLF is the name of the
18 model.
19 Q. What research was Norcross Wildlife
20 sponsoring at that time?
21 A. They were sponsoring mainly the continued
22 research in pesticide runoff. We continued that
23 type of research, improving the pesticide models,
24 applying them in different situations, trying to see
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 26
1 how many regional variations there were in pesticide
2 runoff, how different types of pesticides produced
3 different amount of runoff, so on.
4 Q. What were your responsibilities when you
5 became a full professor up to the present?
6 A. It really was still -- still taught the
7 same courses, basically it's just more graduate
8 students, more committees, somewhat less --
9 everything stayed just about the same except more,
10 more of it.
11 Q. Did you conduct any new research during
12 the time you were full professor?
13 A. Well, yeah, there always has been new
14 research. The newest stuff, now, the stuff that
15 I've -- I guess new areas are continuing with sewage
16 sludge, but now looking at the impact of sewage
17 sludge applied to forest lands, impacts of global
18 warming on water resources and pollution, the
19 controlled urban runoff and kind of estimate the
20 quantity of pollutants in urban runoff, further
21 development of watershed models, water supply
22 studies. We started doing a bunch of water supply
23 research effects on different land uses, on the
24 quantities of water and stream flow and how that
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 27
1 could vary if you changed land uses.
2 Q. Have any of those areas of research you
3 just described involved modeling related to
4 agriculture pollution or agriculture runoff?
5 A. Yes, because, for example, the water
6 supply study, although that doesn't sound like
7 that's agricultural, what we did do is what would
8 happen in watersheds, if the land use situation
9 became more agricultural or less or more, more or
10 less, and we were interested in what that would do
11 to the water supply. Similarly in the global
12 warming, if you had an agriculture watershed as
13 opposed to your balance watershed, would there be a
14 different impact on the effect on the watershed on
15 the effect of global warming.
16 Q. What types of global warming impacts have
17 been involved in your research?
18 A. Basically, what we do with this research
19 is we take the results that cosmologists develop in
20 what are called general circulation models, they run
21 models of the global atmosphere and predict over a
22 period of time how temperatures and precipitation
23 might change. So, we take those precipitation and
24 temperatures they've come up with and run them with
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 28
1 the models, with crop lands and watersheds, and see
2 what would happen with this precipitation and
3 temperature.
4 Q. Has any of the research you've conducted
5 since becoming an associate professor involved
6 agriculture lands, agriculture systems in South
7 Florida?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What professor degrees do you have?
10 A. Bachelor's degree and masters degree in
11 civil engineering from MIT and PhD in civil
12 engineering from Cornell.
13 Q. You got your bachelor's in 1964, is that
14 right?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. What type of coursework, if you can
17 recall to the best of your memory, was involved in
18 getting your bachelor's civil engineering?
19 A. There was what you call a standard civil
20 engineering program. You start out with a broad
21 base of courses in calculus, chemistry, physics, and
22 that's basically your first two years. And then you
23 take courses in specific areas of civil engineering.
24 For example, you take a course in hydraulics and
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 29
1 fluid mechanics, courses in structural analysis,
2 courses in soil mechanics, there was just a general
3 civil engineering degree, to sort of cover all areas
4 of civil engineering.
5 Q. Did you have any courses in modeling to
6 get your bachelor's?
7 A. Yes, I did. What I did at that point is
8 I took several graduate courses when I was an
9 undergrad, they weren't undergraduate courses, but I
10 think I took modeling courses when I was an
11 undergraduate.
12 Q. Do you recall what the subject matter
13 was?
14 A. First one was introductory course linear
15 programming basic course. In linear programming,
16 which is an optimization technique -- the other two
17 courses were water resource systems analysis,
18 application of systems analysis to water resources
19 problems.
20 Q. Did you take any coursework in
21 agriculture systems?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Other than the environmental, the water
24 resource courses you just described, did you take
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 30
1 any other courses relating to environmental systems?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you take any other courses other than
4 what you mentioned relating to pollution control?
5 A. No. As a bachelor's degree?
6 Q. I'm talking about bachelor's.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Did you take any courses in nonpoint
9 source pollution?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You received your masters in 1966, is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was involved in getting your
15 masters?
16 A. Masters degree I was specializing now in
17 a particular area within civil engineering, and also
18 had to write a masters thesis, do research, and the
19 area I was specializing in was hydrodynamics, and
20 that also was the area in which I wrote a thesis in
21 the masters degree.
22 Q. What is hydrodynamics?
23 A. Well, it's basically the flow of fluids
24 and water and gases, pipes through the atmosphere,
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 31
1 whatever.
2 Q. What was the specific topic of your
3 masters thesis?
4 A. It had to do with the design of sewers,
5 it was an optimization of sewers, I guess that's the
6 best way to phrase it.
7 Q. What type of coursework did you take in
8 getting your masters?
9 A. It was really various courses related to
10 fluid mechanics, ocean engineering, hydraulic,
11 sediment transport, advanced fluid mechanics, open
12 channel flow.
13 Q. Did any of that coursework involve
14 modeling?
15 A. Now that you say that, I have to make a
16 correction. Those water resource systems courses
17 that I told you about earlier, they weren't taken at
18 the bachelor's degree, they were taken for my
19 masters degree. I'm sorry, ask me your question
20 again. You asked me the question, I was trying to
21 think of a modeling course that was during the
22 masters degree, those two courses on modeling were
23 taken during the masters degree, the water resource
24 systems courses.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 32
1 Q. Were there any other modeling courses?
2 A. I'm pretty sure that's right. Are there
3 any other modeling courses? I don't think so.
4 Q. Did any of your coursework to get your
5 masters involve agriculture systems?
6 A. Some. I think there was some application
7 in irrigation in the water systems resource course.
8 Q. Do you recall what relating to irrigation
9 was involved in that course?
10 A. I think it had to do what are the optimal
11 allocations of water, how much water do you allocate
12 to agriculture uses for irrigation, but it's really
13 quite vague.
14 Q. Do you recall what in general -- what
15 kind of issues are involved in determining optimal
16 allocation of water for irrigation?
17 A. Do you want -- that's a subject I know a
18 lot more about now because of lots of subsequent
19 work, but do you want to know at the time of my
20 masters degree, are you asking the question what it
21 was in that course it was about or what I know now?
22 Q. Let me ask you if you recall what was
23 involved in the coursework to get your masters?
24 A. I think at that level it was a simple
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 33
1 question, you could allocate water to irrigation and
2 make money raising crops, or you can allocate it to
3 municipal water supply. And certain dollar
4 benefits -- in industry, there are certain dollar
5 benefits, so I think it's a simple question of which
6 would produce more in monetary benefits.
7 Q. Since getting your masters, what type of
8 work have you done involving optimal allocation of
9 water for irrigation?
10 A. In some courses which I have taught, we
11 use the example of optimization in allocating water
12 to irrigation. We've gotten into it in quite a bit
13 more detail. For example, we look at the timing of
14 plant needs for water, in other words, does it need
15 water at this season or this season or this season,
16 where's the most critical time for it to get water.
17 Also, look at it from the point of view of actually
18 modeling the moisture in the soil. Another factor
19 we consider are the different types of crops and
20 different types of needs. For example, one crop may
21 be very stressed during one period of its
22 development, another crop may not need water during
23 that particular month. So, if you make a proper
24 mixture of that, when plants need it and what the
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 34
1 value of the plant is, and you can get very
2 complicated in order to get the most economical use
3 of the water.
4 Q. Have you ever investigated or applied
5 optimization of irrigation water allocation to
6 agriculture systems in South Florida?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you have any teaching or research
9 assistantships when you were getting your masters?
10 A. Yes. I was a teaching assistant the
11 entire time.
12 Q. What courses were you assisting to teach
13 at that time?
14 A. Mainly courses in advanced fluid
15 mechanics, but also courses in hydrology, courses in
16 ocean engineering, those are the ones I remember.
17 Q. You received your PhD in 1971, is that
18 correct?
19 A. Mm-mm.
20 Q. What was involved in getting your PhD?
21 A. In general, at Cornell you have a major
22 in one particular area, in my case it was water
23 resource systems, and then you need to have a minor
24 in two different areas, which in my case was
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 35
1 operations research and then hydraulics, I think it
2 was called. I completed coursework in those three
3 areas and then had to write a PhD thesis.
4 Q. What coursework did you take relating to
5 water resource systems?
6 A. Boy, I'm drawing a blank here. What I'm
7 trying to do is think of the different courses and
8 how they were categorized. For example, in the area
9 of water resource systems at Cornell, what you're
10 supposed to do is develop skills in a number of
11 different areas. So, for example, I had to take an
12 advanced economics course, a course in advanced
13 probability, a course in applications of water of
14 systems analysis to environmental or to -- yeah, I
15 guess that one was environmental applications.
16 Water resources planning, a seminar course in
17 applications of models to water resources, things
18 like that, it's a little bit vague. There was an
19 advanced mathematics course, too, things like that.
20 Q. What was the topic of your dissertation?
21 A. I think it was called political
22 evaluation of alternative water resources plans, but
23 I may be misremembering that, that may be the title
24 of a technical report after that, but I think it's
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 36
1 something like that.
2 Q. What was involved in your putting
3 together your dissertation?
4 A. Well, the PhD dissertations you're
5 supposed to develop a new and original area of
6 research, make a new and original contribution to
7 that area. My particular one had to do how our
8 different water resources plans evaluated, how do
9 people decide which water resources plan is better
10 than another, and in my particular case it was
11 investigating both the chemical and political
12 issues, political science issues related to that
13 sort of question.
14 Q. Can you describe the research you
15 conducted to get your dissertation, to do your
16 dissertation?
17 A. Yeah, sort of. The basic issues, you
18 have two different water resources areas for an
19 area, it could be development reservoirs. If you
20 have a couple of different ones, they will say needs
21 for different groups of people. And the question is
22 which one of those plans is better. So, what I had
23 to first do is look at the traditional economic
24 literature, which is literature and research. I
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 37
1 want to look at the economic cost and benefits and
2 add up all the benefits, add up all the costs and
3 determine which of the two is better, and then
4 there's a whole other body of literature that comes
5 out of the decision theory, comes out of management
6 economics. If you have competing objectives like,
7 for example, being water quality and economic
8 development, are there ways you can look at the
9 relative values of the competing values and
10 comparing them. So, there's a bunch of mathematics
11 and theory developed in that body of work, so I had
12 to look at all that.
13 But the third body of work that was
14 important in this case was looking at political
15 theory, so what has to go back a long time, theories
16 of Locke and Stowe, one had to look at the early
17 philosiphers of political theory to determine how
18 political decisions are made and somehow take all
19 that business of political theory, take the economic
20 theory, take the decision theory, mold it all
21 into -- it's kind of embarrassing, a bunch of
22 equations, that sounds impossible, I'm not sure it
23 was, but it got me my PhD, it was kind of fun.
24 Q. Did your research involve any agriculture
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 38
1 systems modeling?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did it involve environmental systems
4 modeling?
5 A. A little bit.
6 Q. In what way did it involve environmental
7 systems modeling?
8 A. In the extent when we looked at
9 alternative water resources plans, usually one of
10 the objectives of those plans was related to the
11 environment, water quality enhancement, enhancement
12 of the scenery, things like that, but it was usually
13 one of the objectives that were involved.
14 Q. Did you have any teaching or research
15 assistantships while getting your PhD?
16 A. No, I guess it was all fellowships.
17 Q. Did you do any teaching at all when you
18 were earning your PhD?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Since you've received your PhD, have you
21 directed any graduate research?
22 A. Yeah, enormous. Yes, I have.
23 Q. How many PhDs have you directed?
24 A. That I don't know. I just looked at a
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 39
1 list the other day and I had 41 graduate students
2 who have completed their degrees with me, but I'm
3 really hard pressed to remember how many were PhDs
4 and masters degrees and so on. Plus, there's a
5 number of others that I directed that had yet to
6 finish their degrees but did not. I just don't
7 know.
8 Q. What types of subject matter have been
9 involved in the graduate research you've directed?
10 A. Almost every -- that's not a good answer.
11 A lot of it has to do with development and testing
12 of models of nonpoint source pollution. Some of it
13 has had to do with irrigation modeling, although
14 most of that, that's been mostly pollution
15 associated with irrigation and that is often
16 solidity questions. Watershed models, the graduate
17 student research pretty much follows that earlier
18 discussion of the type of research that I have done.
19 For example, I have told you I did research in
20 sewage sludge and application to crop lands. Well,
21 at least three of the graduate students did that
22 research, worked on that research. Another graduate
23 student worked on development of sewage treatment
24 processes, another one on dairy farm pollution, one
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 40
1 on modeling of crops and how they respond to water,
2 several on pesticide models, pretty much the same
3 cross section of problems that I was describing
4 earlier.
5 Q. Did any of the graduate research you've
6 directed involve agricultural systems in South
7 Florida?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Have you had other jobs since you got
10 your bachelor's other than your employment at
11 Cornell?
12 A. Yeah. I worked for a year for a
13 consulting engineering firm as a project manager.
14 Q. Was that at the same time you were a
15 professor at Cornell?
16 A. Well, actually -- in a sense, but
17 actually took leave at Cornell to work at that job
18 full time.
19 Q. When was that?
20 A. '73, I think it was.
21 Q. Was that Krohler & Mitusky?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was the nature of your
24 responsibilities when you were with Krohler &
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 41
1 Mitusky?
2 A. I also worked for that firm earlier
3 before I got my PhD, but this time when I was
4 working for them in '73 and '74, I was supervising
5 projects related to water pollution, water quality
6 in rivers, development of sewage treatment plant
7 systems and also having to do with waste heat, but
8 it was also managing different projects related to
9 environmental pollution.
10 Q. Did any of those projects involve
11 nonpoint source pollution?
12 A. Yes. The particular one having to do
13 with waste water treatment, because as part of that
14 project we had to evaluate the contribution of
15 nonpoint source pollution to a river system.
16 Q. What did you do in order to -- how was
17 nonpoint source pollution involved in that project?
18 A. Well, its involvement was when you're
19 determining the level of sewage treatment in the
20 river you had to account for any other sources of
21 pollution, so you knew what extent you had to treat
22 the pollution and to what extent the pollution was
23 due to some other source. What we were concerned
24 with what was the total contribution of nonpoint
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 42
1 sources to the pollution of the river.
2 Q. How did you account for nonpoint
3 pollution sources in that project?
4 A. That's a good question. This was in the
5 early days when people were working on nonpoint
6 source pollution, '73, '74, and no real techniques
7 had been developed at that time. It's a good
8 question, I got to remember how we did do it, I
9 don't honestly remember.
10 Q. I probably forgot to mention earlier.
11 Any time you would like to take a break for any
12 reason, let me know. I might beat you to it at some
13 point.
14 When were you first approached to provide
15 consulting, it was in connection with legal
16 proceedings relating to water quality in the
17 Everglades?
18 A. Best I recollect, I think it was the end
19 of April of last year. I think that's right.
20 Q. Who approached you?
21 A. Bill Green.
22 Q. What?
23 A. I correct that, wait a minute, that isn't
24 how it happened at all. Just a minute. Correction.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 43
1 I worked with another firm, a firm called Tetratech
2 and an individual I worked with at Tetratech asked
3 me if it was all right if they gave my name to Bill
4 Green, as someone they might be able to contact with
5 whatever. So, the first thing I heard about was
6 from this firm was is it all right if we give your
7 name to so and so to give information on best
8 sources management, and I got a call subsequently
9 from Bill Green.
10 Q. Who at Tetratech?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Was it Steve Gharini, G-H-A-R-I-N-I?
13 A. No. I think they have an office in
14 Virginia, I think it was someone from there. I
15 don't think it was someone I worked with but still
16 it's vague.
17 Q. Do you recall when you were contacted by
18 Tetratech?
19 A. It was, to the best of my knowledge, very
20 shortly before I was contacted by Bill Green.
21 Q. What were you asked to do in general in
22 connection with water quality in the Everglades?
23 A. Specifically to -- well, there were two
24 different requests, the first request was to take a
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 44
1 look at a report, I guess what we're calling the
2 IFAS report or report describing experiments that
3 had been done, and I'm trying to think of exactly
4 how that was worded. Basically, to have a look at
5 that report and see if that report supported, I
6 think, a contention that there were several
7 practices that would remove certain percents of
8 phosphorus or reduce the levels of phosphorus from
9 drainage, I think, in irrigated lands.
10 Q. Do you recall what practices and what
11 levels you were asked to investigate?
12 A. Yeah. There were three specific
13 practices that were in what I understood was a rule
14 proposed at that time. One was -- and my memory may
15 be wrong, fertilizer tests, another one was
16 management of water table levels, and third one was
17 minimization of fertilizer spills and I think the
18 specifics -- and again, I'm not sure of the
19 percentage, but I think the question was, did this
20 report provide supporting documentation that those
21 practices could remove 25 percent of the phosphorus
22 in drainage waters.
23 Q. I'm sorry, what percentage?
24 A. I think 25, that those practices were
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 45
1 capable of moving 25 percent of the phosphorus in
2 drainage waters.
3 Q. Is the report you're referring to the
4 report you brought in today entitled --
5 A. No -- I'm sorry, I'm anticipating your
6 question.
7 Q. One I have in my hands right now is 1992
8 report entitled, Everglades Agriculture Area Water
9 Soil Crop and Environmental Management. That's not
10 the one?
11 A. No, that's not the report.
12 Q. You brought some additional documents?
13 A. Yes. It is, yeah, right in there.
14 Q. It's the report, 1987 report entitled,
15 "The Effect of On-farm Agriculture Practices and
16 Organic Soils of EEA of Nitrogen and Phosphorus
17 Transport Screening BMPs for Process of Unloading
18 and Reductions"?
19 A. No. There, I think.
20 Q. It's this one, August 1991 final report
21 entitled, "The Effects of On-farm Agriculture
22 Practices on Nitrogen and Phosphorus Transport
23 Screening BMPs for Process for us Loading and
24 Reductions" by FT Izuno, I-Z-U-N-O, and AB Bottcher,
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 46
1 B-O-T-T-C-H-E-R?
2 A. Yes, that's the one.
3 Q. With respect to the first request you
4 received to conduct some review, what specifically
5 did you do?
6 A. Really the nature of that first request
7 was, did I think -- there were two requests, what
8 was the fist request and second request, but
9 basically what I did in this first request was to
10 take a fairly rapid overview of that report, go
11 through it, skim through it, somewhat skimming it,
12 reading it as much as I could understand and try to
13 draw some conclusion about whether or not the basic
14 issue is open to question. In other words, was
15 there questions about whether or not the report had
16 actually shown that those particular practices could
17 remove the 25 percent. At that time, I didn't have
18 time to draw any conclusions about whether or not it
19 was really true, they did or did not show it, but
20 really whether or not it was really an open
21 question. So, that's basically what I was doing,
22 taking a look at that report just to come up with
23 that sort of overview.
24 Q. What specifically were you looking for as
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 47
1 you reviewed this report, this 1991 IFAS report?
2 A. In this first go-round, I was looking for
3 a description of the research in there that was
4 related to those three practices, calibration of
5 fertilizer tests; the spillage, spillage of
6 fertilizer spills; watershed drainage and
7 experiments related to those specific things, and to
8 see what kinds of conclusions they've drawn from
9 those type of experiments.
10 Q. Just generally at this point, do you
11 recall what conclusions or impressions you had when
12 you completed that first task?
13 A. That first go-around, I -- I mean, it
14 didn't seem to me that there was research, they're
15 very closely related to those three practices.
16 Q. Do you recall when you completed your
17 review of that first task you described?
18 A. I don't know the exact date, it was
19 probably early in May, somewhere around there.
20 Q. And subsequently you performed additional
21 tasks, is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What additional requests did you receive?
24 A. Basic request was to take a more thorough
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 48
1 look at that. As I said, I had just been going
2 through it rather quickly to see if there was
3 evidence in there supporting the practices and so
4 on. Subsequent request was to provide a more
5 thorough evaluation of that, actually look at the
6 experiments that went on, see what types of
7 conclusions that were drawn, also to look at
8 supporting material, supporting material being this
9 report right here, which is a literature review and
10 people in Florida also did.
11 Q. You're referring to a 1992 report by
12 Bottcher and as you know, again, entitled,
13 Everglades Agriculture Area Water Drop Soil and
14 Environmental Management?
15 A. Yes, that report.
16 Q. Did you look at any other supporting
17 information?
18 A. Well, I looked at earlier what the actual
19 proposed rule was, which is -- well, just that
20 supporting rule, and then there was -- I can't
21 remember, there is -- I did bring along a rule, I
22 looked at that. And then there may have been --
23 that's all related to the rule. There was a draft,
24 which I hadn't realized, I dug this out the other
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 49
1 day, a draft of an extension publication that,
2 although I looked at it, I couldn't find much in it
3 there, so that was another thing that I actually did
4 look at.
5 Q. What do you recall, you couldn't find
6 much in it?
7 A. Well, what do you mean by that? I guess
8 I couldn't find much information supporting those --
9 the question I had been asked to answer, what is the
10 supporting basis for the 20 percent or 25 percent
11 reduction.
12 MR. PERKO: For the record, could
13 you state the title of the document you
14 were just referring to?
15 Q. And you're referring now to the -- a
16 document entitled, "Best Management Practices for
17 the Everglades Agriculture Area (How is the Percent
18 Removal of Phosphorus Determined for the Settlement)
19 by Bottcher, is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That does not appear here to have a date
22 other than a fax date, which I don't believe is
23 relevant. Were there any other documents?
24 A. There is one more in there which is --
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 50
1 actually I don't know if I read this. This document
2 here -- I'm not sure I read that, yes, I did, I
3 looked through it. It was a description of the
4 university, of how they were -- I don't actually
5 remember that much about what that's about.
6 Q. This is a November 1987 --
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. -- report entitled, Final Report, The
9 Effects of On-Farm Agricultural Practices in the
10 Organic Practices on EEA on Nitrogen and Phosphorus
11 Transport, colon, Phase Two, by Izuno and Bottcher
12 also?
13 A. Yes. I must say I wasn't asked to
14 comment on those reports, though, I only was asked
15 to comment on the extent to which the research is in
16 support of those percentages.
17 Q. In conducting the more in-depth review in
18 connection with this second request, what
19 specifically did you do?
20 A. Well, first thing I did was this report I
21 read fairly carefully because this report
22 actually --
23 Q. This report meaning 1992 report?
24 A. 1992 report. It actually explained how
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 51
1 the irrigation systems worked there, they explained
2 what was meant by how the farmers operated their
3 water, the pump, when they had to apply the
4 irrigation, how they had to drain it with irrigation
5 ditches, had to explain the hydraulics of the
6 situation. It explained an awful lot about the
7 nature of the soils in the area. When I originally
8 read this report.
9 Q. When you say this report --
10 A. When I originally read the 19 -- 1991
11 report as opposed to 1992 report, many things
12 weren't clear to me how actually irrigation worked,
13 and how they were actually growing the sugar cane,
14 and how the agriculture was functioning in that
15 report, and this report explained a lot of that.
16 Q. 1992 report?
17 A. So then, after reading that I could read
18 the descriptions and experiments again and now
19 actually understand much better why they were doing
20 certain things, in other words, why the water had to
21 be sprayed one part of the year and had to be
22 irrigated another part of the year and so on. So,
23 the first thing I tried to do was get a much more
24 complete knowledge of the problem of sugar cane and
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 52
1 irrigation and phosphorus, mainly from that report.
2 Then I went back and I wrote the experiments much
3 more carefully to see how they had been designed and
4 so on, and tried to then see if there wasn't some
5 specific connection between those experiments and
6 the, again, those three practices.
7 And the other thing I was asked to do is
8 if I thought there was any other things that I
9 thought should be done in terms of evaluating best
10 management practices, and then specifically whether
11 or not I had said that I thought that models
12 probably was an approach that should be used in
13 that, so I was asked to clarify that and to actually
14 specify what I meant by what should be done with
15 models.
16 Q. In general, at this point, did you come
17 to any conclusions as to whether the three best
18 management practices you were looking at, the
19 calibrated soil tests, water table management and
20 prevention of fertilizer spills, whether there was a
21 basis for determining that they could achieve a 25
22 percent reduction in phosphorus in the EAA?
23 A. My conclusion was that the research in
24 the 1991 report did not support that.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 53
1 Q. Does that remain your opinion today?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have you completed your task of the
4 review task you described as the second task?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When did you complete that task?
7 A. Early May, early to middle May.
8 Q. Since completing that second task, have
9 you conducted any additional reviews or
10 investigations or analysis relating to Everglades
11 water quality issues?
12 A. Not until I found out about this
13 deposition and reviewed the documents as I told you
14 earlier about how I prepared for this deposition.
15 Q. Prior to conducting and responding to
16 these two requests relating to the water quality
17 issues, have you done any work at all relating to
18 agricultural systems in South Florida?
19 A. The only connection I can think of is
20 that we -- it was part of one of our EPA projects a
21 number of years ago, we went to a couple of
22 different states and actually developed workshop
23 presentations for the extension and soil water
24 conservation people within that state on best
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 54
1 management practices for agriculture, and one of the
2 states that we did do it for was Florida. So, we
3 put on a workshop in Gainesville, which that is, I
4 think, the only item of work I can remember.
5 Q. How did that EPA project, how did that
6 involve agriculture systems in South Florida?
7 A. To the best of my knowledge, I don't
8 think it did. Specifically what it involved were
9 the general principles of best management practices,
10 what are best management practices. This was in
11 maybe the early '80s when people were just beginning
12 to talk about this. I think it was done at a very
13 elementary level, what's the best management
14 practice, what is pollution, how do we control it,
15 that type of thing.
16 Q. Do you recall just generally what general
17 principles you talked about during the presentation
18 in Gainesville?
19 A. I was basically dealing with water
20 balances, nutrients, as well as why are nutrients --
21 what kind of pollution problems they can cause, how
22 are nutrients used in agriculture, it was at that
23 level.
24 Q. In general, what kind of pollution
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 55
1 problems did you attribute to nutrients?
2 MR. PERKO: Objection as to
3 characterization of the testimony.
4 A. Could you ask that again?
5 Q. I believe in discussing general
6 principles, you mentioned that you had talked about
7 the pollution problems relating to nutrients, is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What types of pollution problems were you
11 referring to?
12 A. I don't remember for sure, but it would
13 almost have to be the case of nitrogen, it was
14 probably a concern with groundwater contamination
15 and toxicity of nitrate, we were very worried about
16 that at that time. And phosphorus probably had to
17 do with nitrification.
18 Q. As far as you're aware, is nitrification
19 a generally accepted result of phosphorous
20 pollution?
21 MR. PERKO: Objection as to form.
22 A. That's -- are you saying nitrification
23 generally results -- I mean, when phosphorus is
24 discharged or are you saying there's
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 56
1 nitrification -- I'm sorry.
2 Q. I believe you stated that with respect to
3 phosphorous, the pollution problem you generally
4 described was nitrification, is that corrected?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Can you explain to me more specifically
7 how phosphorous contributed to nitrification?
8 MR. PERKO: I'm going to object
9 to relevance, it's beyond the scope of
10 any testimony Dr. Haith provided in the
11 hearing.
12 A. In general, our concern about phosphorous
13 is at accessive levels. It stimulates aquatic
14 growth, and overstimulation of aquatic growth, the
15 material can then die. After it dies, it can
16 deplete the absolved oxygen in waterways. That's my
17 understanding of why we're concerned.
18 Q. With phosphorous?
19 A. Well, with any form of nitrification, but
20 that's fair, generally my understanding why were
21 concerned with phosphorus in waterways, yes.
22 Q. Do you have plans at this point to do any
23 additional work relating to the Everglades or
24 Everglades agriculture area?
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 57
1 A. No.
2 Q. Are you currently performing any work
3 relating to the Everglades or Everglades agriculture
4 area?
5 A. No.
6 MR. GARVER: Would this be a good
7 time for everyone to take a little break?
8 (Whereupon a short break was
9 taken)
10 BY MR. GARVER:
11 Q. Dr. Haith, are you familiar with the
12 March 1992 Everglades SIM plan, service improvement
13 and management plan for the Everglades?
14 A. I don't think so. Other than in a
15 general way. Is that the one -- March 1992, I don't
16 think I have --
17 Q. Are you familiar with any version of the
18 SIM plan, of the Everglades SIM plan?
19 A. There was a -- I don't know. Maybe the
20 best way to answer that is I have certainly read
21 things in the New York Times and things like that in
22 general about the Everglades and about the plans,
23 but I can't really place anything very specific
24 about it. And I do remember reading when I started
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 58
1 this work about the rule, or I think it was a rule,
2 that had to do with the practices, those three
3 specific practices, and then I remember reading
4 about the agreements or general agreements that have
5 been made regarding things like -- well, I guess
6 just a general knowledge, but I'm trying to think in
7 my mind what I know specifically about this. And I
8 don't think I know about the very specifics about
9 it.
10 Q. What was your general understanding of
11 the water quality issues in the Everglades?
12 A. My general understanding is that there
13 was a court case that there was an agreement reached
14 between -- I think it was the federal government and
15 the state, about how pollution would be controlled
16 in the Everglades. And furthermore, that there was
17 the agricultural area of the Everglades, there was a
18 plan, agreement, rule, whatever, to control certain
19 amounts of the phosphorus coming out of the
20 agricultural area. And what I remember was best
21 management practices, those three earlier best
22 management practices that I referred to earlier, the
23 expectation that they would control 25 percent and
24 other percentage of that actual storm -- of
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 59
1 stormwater, routing of wetlands, I don't remember
2 what exactly they're called, but to reapply certain
3 amounts of phosphorus, I read about that clearly.
4 Q. Are you familiar with the term stormwater
5 treatment areas?
6 A. Yeah, I think so. That's what they were
7 called, I think.
8 Q. Are you familiar at all with the proposal
9 to construct stormwater treatment areas in the
10 Everglades agriculture area?
11 A. Yes. I have read about it, yes.
12 Q. What is your understanding of the
13 proposal for construction of stormwater treatment
14 areas in the EAA?
15 A. It's my understanding that these are
16 wetland type areas that will -- that will be put in
17 place to remove portions of the phosphorous.
18 Q. Have you done any reviews, studies or
19 analysis relating to the proposal to construct STAs
20 in the EAA?
21 A. No, EAA, that's Everglades agriculture
22 area?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And STA is stormwater treatment area?
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 60
1 A. No.
2 Q. Have you done any reviews, studies or
3 investigation of any wetland treatment systems?
4 A. I think so. Some wetland treatment
5 systems have been proposed here in Ithaca for either
6 treatment of sewage or treatment of landfill
7 leachates and we've done several presentations of
8 this, and those presentations were made a year or
9 two ago, I spent some time trying to investigate --
10 not really investigate, but discussions with people
11 who were doing the research and so on to try to
12 determine how these systems worked, and actually how
13 they worked. But that's pretty much the extent of
14 it, I've never done any research on it myself.
15 Q. Don't go into any great detail on this,
16 but can you just describe in general the wetland
17 treatments that you just mentioned in Ithaca?
18 A. Well, my understanding of them is they
19 were systems in which one was growing specific types
20 of plants, I think they were cattails, if I remember
21 right, some type of plant like that where one would
22 pass the waste water through and quantities of the
23 nutrients would be removed either by taking up in
24 the plants or by filtration. I think they were
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 61
1 either being grown in crushed stone or some
2 combination of crushed stone and earth so nutrients
3 would be filled out along with organic material.
4 Q. Did you find a comment or review of those
5 proposals?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I believe you mentioned earlier the
8 generalized watershed loading functions?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Can you describe what the generalized
11 water loading functions is in general?
12 A. It is a model that we developed to
13 estimate the amounts of nitrogen and phosphorous in
14 stream flow from complex watersheds, I guess you
15 would say. Watershed with varying land uses, urban,
16 agriculture and so on.
17 Q. Can you just describe how the generalized
18 watershed loading function model works?
19 A. Yes. It uses input, daily weather data,
20 and what it does, through a series of equations, it
21 computes on each day what happens to the water in
22 the watershed, how much of it infiltrates the soil,
23 how much of it evaporates, how much of it runs into
24 the stream, and then it also through a series of
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 62
1 equations, describes how much nitrogen and
2 phosphorous will enter into that water and be
3 transported with either the stream or groundwater.
4 That's about it.
5 Q. Have you applied the generalized
6 watershed loading functions model in any way to the
7 Everglades agriculture area or the Everglades?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Is that a model that in your opinion
10 would be applicable to the Everglades agriculture
11 area and the Everglades?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. What would you need to know in order to
14 know whether you could determine the generalized
15 loading function shed model to the EAA or the
16 Everglades?
17 A. I think I would have to know more about
18 the general nature of hydraulics in the whole area,
19 how much stream flow in that case consists of runoff
20 versus discharge from the groundwater, what is
21 evaporations like in the area, things like this.
22 Q. In the models you've developed or
23 utilized to describe nonpoint source agriculture
24 pollution or controls of nonpoint source pollution,
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 63
1 are irrigated lands treated differently from
2 non-irrigated lands?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How are irrigated lands and non-irrigated
5 lands treated differently in those models?
6 A. I guess maybe we should back up a little
7 bit. Well, maybe not. The thing that probably
8 differs most in the irrigated versus non-irrigated
9 land is the drainage problem. And when we use any
10 models to model the irrigated land, most of those
11 lands would have drainage associated with them, and
12 when they have drainage associated with them, either
13 drainage in the form of ditches or drainage in the
14 form of actual constructed pipe drapes, tube drains
15 in the fields, that changes the hydraulic of the
16 land, and so it changes the speed with which the
17 water drains out of the soil, it changes the speed
18 the way runoff occurs. And so when that occurs, you
19 have to put different parameters in the models for
20 those lands than you otherwise would. So, I think
21 that would be the major difference, is dealing with
22 drainage.
23 Q. What different parameters would you have
24 to put in for irrigated lands?
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 64
1 A. Well, an example would be when you
2 compute runoff from the soil, the runoff is usually
3 based on properties of the soil as it exists in a
4 field, a certain type of soil we know has certain
5 drainage characteristics, but that's the natural
6 drainage characteristics to the soil. If you
7 artificially drain the soil, that means that the
8 properties that one would normally expect that soil
9 to have are no longer there. So, an example would
10 be the permeability and infiltration rates, the soil
11 is drained, the infiltration rates would increase
12 and runoff would be so you would have to change
13 parameters related to infiltration. Another
14 parameter relates to the speed with which the water
15 drains into a stream. If the soils are artificially
16 drained, they would drain more rapidly into the
17 stream.
18 Q. Are you familiar with what infiltration
19 rates, drainage rates and other soil parameters that
20 would be different in irrigated lands would relate
21 to the Everglades agricultural area?
22 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
23 A. Are you saying do I know what the
24 properties, those properties would be in the
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 65
1 Everglades or are you asking do I know what types of
2 property might be different?
3 Q. Well, do you know what types of property
4 might be different in the Everglades agriculture
5 area?
6 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
7 A. Basically a guess, but there are
8 properties related to high organic matter content
9 that would certainly be different in the Everglades
10 than at least in other places, but I don't know the
11 exact nature of those differences.
12 Q. Are you familiar with how agriculture
13 producers in the Everglades agriculture area manage
14 water?
15 A. Only in a very general way.
16 Q. What is your general understanding of how
17 EAA agriculture producers manage water?
18 A. In general, I understand that there are
19 wet and dry periods of the year and that it is
20 necessary in order to grow their crops at certain
21 times of year to drain the soil, drain the water
22 table down to avoid its flooding or to plant the
23 crops or whatever, or to have reasonable
24 agricultural operations. And I understand there are
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 66
1 other times of the year where there is not enough
2 water, so although they drained it earlier, now
3 water must be applied in irrigation to supplement
4 the water it feeds for the crop. And in both cases
5 there is that drainage water, that management of
6 water table, needs to eliminate the excess water in
7 order for the crops to grow, that's really my
8 general understanding, they have to manage the water
9 table in order to actually grow the crops there, and
10 water table management is the key element of crop
11 production.
12 Q. Are the characteristics of the water
13 management in the EAA that you're familiar with,
14 would they require special consideration or
15 treatment in a model of EAA nutrients discharge or
16 runoff?
17 MR. PERKO: Object to the form.
18 A. I would think so.
19 Q. What special consideration or treatment
20 would be required?
21 A. I think it's pretty much what I said
22 earlier, you have to pay attention to that drainage
23 character, the fact that the drainage is going on
24 and the fact that that water table is interacting
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 67
1 with the soils as they go up and down -- I mean, as
2 the water table goes up and down.
3 Q. Specifically, how would you treat the
4 drainage patterns in water table patterns in
5 constructing a model of EAA water management?
6 A. I'm not very sure, I don't really know
7 how I would do that at this point.
8 Q. In general, how would you develop a
9 program of best management practices for agriculture
10 production in the EAA?
11 MR. PERKO: Object to the form
12 and relevancy, it's beyond Douglas
13 Haith's area of potential testimony.
14 MR. GARVER: I'm a little
15 confused, Mr. Perko, how you can object
16 to relevance when you don't know what
17 he's going to testify to at this point.
18 I think this is a pretty wide open point
19 of discovery.
20 MR. PERKO: He can answer if he
21 knows.
22 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
23 Q. How would you develop a program of the
24 best program practices in the Everglade agriculture
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 68
1 area?
2 A. I don't honestly know.
3 Q. Have you reviewed proposals for best
4 management practices program for agriculture
5 production in the EAA?
6 A. I've reviewed the recommendations for
7 best management practices in both the '91 and '92
8 reports, plus those earlier recommendations, I
9 guess, in the rule, those -- for those three
10 practices you referred to earlier, is that what you
11 mean? I'm not quite sure what you were asking, did
12 you ask did I review a program or did I review
13 practices?
14 Q. I asked if you reviewed a program.
15 A. Yes. I have not reviewed a program but I
16 have reviewed specific recommended practices as they
17 are in these two reports.
18 Q. You have reviewed a rule requiring
19 implementation of best management practices in the
20 EAA, isn't that correct?
21 A. I think that is what I reviewed. The
22 terminology leads me a little bit -- rule.
23 Q. Whatever rule or program or practices
24 that you reviewed, have you perused them and the
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 69
1 documents?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the first document in this is appears
4 to be a rule number 40 E-63 South Florida management
5 district rule, is that correct? I'm looking at this
6 April 1992 document.
7 A. Yes. Are you asking is that the rule
8 that the document that I reviewed?
9 Q. Yes, have you reviewed this?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In your opinion, is this a -- is this
12 rule a reasonable rule?
13 MR. PERKO: Objection as to form.
14 A. I guess I don't have an opinion on that,
15 I was mainly focusing on those three recommended
16 BMPs.
17 Q. Have you drawn or reached any opinions
18 regarding the three BMPs? I believe you're
19 referring to calibrated soil test water, table
20 management and prevention of fertilizer spills?
21 MR. PERKO: Objection, asked and
22 answered.
23 A. It was the same conclusion I stated
24 earlier that those -- there was not support for
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 70
1 those practices in the research document that I
2 reviewed.
3 Q. In what way were those best management
4 practices unsupported?
5 A. The 1991 report, which is what I was
6 referring to, the research described in there
7 investigated those three specific practices, it
8 looked at different practices than those.
9 Q. Are you aware of any best management
10 practices, other than those that were described in
11 the Izuno and Bottcher reports that you reviewed,
12 that might be applicable to the Everglades
13 agricultural area?
14 A. No, I don't think so.
15 MR. GARVER: Ms. Court Reporter,
16 could you please mark this as Haith
17 Exhibit 1?
18 (Whereupon Haith Exhibit 1 was
19 marked for identification)
20 BY MR. GARVER:
21 Q. Dr. Haith, I'm handing you what's been
22 marked as Haith Exhibit 1. Do you recognize this
23 document?
24 A. Yes.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 71
1 Q. Could you identify it, please?
2 A. That was the response I sent to the first
3 assignment.
4 Q. I'd like you to refer to the second page
5 of this exhibit, which is the first page of a
6 letter. At the bottom of the first full
7 paragraph -- well, let me back up, this is a letter
8 you wrote, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At the bottom of that first paragraph,
11 your study was complicated, and I can't say I
12 understand everything that was done. In what way
13 did you find the study you're referring to there
14 complicated?
15 A. I did not understand at that time when I
16 was reading in really how irrigation -- how the
17 irrigation and drainage patterns actually functioned
18 in the sugar cane, hence it was difficult for me to
19 understand in their experiments why they did certain
20 things.
21 Q. When you responded to the second request
22 and studied the additional materials, did some of
23 that confusion go away?
24 A. Yes, I dealt with it at that time.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 72
1 Q. Why were calibrated soil tests,
2 fertilizer spill prevention and practices for
3 minimizing water table fluctuation the only
4 practices that you were looking at?
5 A. Because it was my understanding that
6 those were the practices that had been specified in
7 the rule that we referred to earlier.
8 Q. On the third page of this exhibit, which
9 is the second page of the letter, the third to the
10 last paragraph states that: "The case for
11 management of water tables is more closely related
12 to the experiments because reasonable evidence was
13 presented that P loads are very much a drainage
14 phenomenon. Furthermore, it seems intuitive that
15 minimization of drying/wetting cycles of these
16 cycles will reduce P mineralization. However, the
17 nature of such management seems speculative, and I
18 could find no basis for the statement in the
19 executive summary that, quote, 'drainage rate and
20 volume BMPs could be responsible for about a 20
21 percent P loading reduction,'" end quote. In that
22 paragraph, why it did it seem intuitive of
23 drying/wetting cycles of these soils will reduce P
24 minimization?
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 73
1 A. It was my understanding or it is my
2 understanding that phosphorous is mineralized in
3 these organic soils. First of all, when the soil is
4 dry and dry is exposed to oxygen, exposed to the
5 atmosphere and soil itself starts to change its
6 nature. And when you wet those soils again, you
7 provide either additional environment for the
8 microorganisms to do the mineralization or you leach
9 out the nitrogen that already has been mineralized.
10 Q. Do you also leach out the phosphorous
11 that has been mineralized?
12 A. I'm sorry, I meant to say phosphorous
13 that has been mineralized.
14 Q. In the next sentence you state, "however,
15 the nature of such management seems speculative."
16 Do you recall what you meant when you wrote that?
17 A. Yes. What I meant was we don't actually
18 know how much phosphorus is going to be mineralized
19 or is going to be leached in the soil as a function
20 of making -- what's the best way to say it --
21 advising the water table up and down. In other
22 words, we don't know the nature of the manipulation
23 of the water table and phosphorous.
24 Q. When you say, we don't know about the
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 74
1 relationship, is that primarily a provo
2 quanification?
3 A. I think so.
4 Q. The next paragraph after the one I just
5 read, you state, "this was an excellent set of field
6 experiments that should contribute significantly to
7 our understanding of P loads from organic soils."
8 Can you explain in more detail what you meant by
9 that?
10 A. I think basically what I meant, it seems
11 to me they did a good job on their research. They
12 had measured things carefully, they had documented
13 what they did, they had measured the actual levels
14 of phosphorous that were coming out of these sites
15 under conditions of drainage and they were providing
16 a lot of useful information, part of what I was
17 saying was it was good research.
18 Q. In the remainder of that paragraph, you
19 make some conclusions regarding the usefulness of
20 the experiments in that report. Are the conclusions
21 you provided in that paragraph, have you changed
22 those in any way since writing this letter?
23 A. No.
24 MR. GARVER: Ms. Court Reporter,
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 75
1 please mark this next exhibit as Haith
2 Exhibit 2.
3 (Whereupon Haith Exhibit 2 was
4 marked for identification)
5 BY MR. GARVER:
6 Q. Dr. Haith, I'm handing you what's been
7 marked as Haith Exhibit 2. Can you identify this
8 document, please?
9 A. That's the report I sent as a result of
10 the completion of a second request for assignment.
11 Q. I'd like to refer you to the fourth page
12 of this exhibit, which is the third page of the
13 letter, section entitled, issues and questions.
14 Have you ever received any answers to the questions
15 you list in that section?
16 A. No.
17 Q. On the following page, which is page five
18 of the exhibit, fourth page of the letter, there's a
19 section entitled possible additional studies. And
20 first sentence under that section it states, "it is
21 relatively easy to conclude that the proposed BMPs
22 for management of EAA P loads have not been
23 scientifically proven to be effective." Is that
24 still your opinion today?
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 76
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What basis do you have for that opinion?
3 A. Basis for that opinion is the 1991 report
4 which did research on BMPs and also the 1992
5 literature survey which summarized other research on
6 BMPs and Everglades. I do have to add a
7 qualification. Perhaps I should say I have not seen
8 any evidence they have scientifically proven to be
9 effective. There may be research I know nothing
10 about, for example, might prove effective, but I'm
11 not aware of any resesarch that's proven to be
12 effective.
13 Q. In what respect is the evidence that you
14 have revised defficient in scientifically proving
15 the proposed BMPs to be effective?
16 A. I did not find any experimental work -- I
17 did not find experimental work that had been done
18 specifically on those BMPs. With the -- I did not
19 find scientific work that had been done on the
20 effectiveness of the calibrated soil tests for the
21 fertilizer spill BMPs. There was research done on
22 the water table management, but not research that
23 would demonstrate the actual effectiveness of the
24 water table management, field studies of specific
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 77
1 practices.
2 Q. What did the field studies relating to
3 the water table management BMP demonstrate, if
4 anything?
5 A. There were really two different field
6 studies related to it, one was a field study of fast
7 drainage versus slow drainage, drinking the water
8 table down quickly versus bringing the water table
9 down slowly. Those results produced some
10 conflicting information. When you drain the water
11 table rapidly, you got higher phosphorous loads than
12 when you drained the water table slowly. However,
13 the concentrations in the drainage water were
14 actually higher with the slow drainage rate.
15 So, the investigator suggested that --
16 what did they suggest? Well, the investigators
17 were -- I think the way they studied it, at the --
18 were frankly puzzled by these results, in other
19 words, they did not -- they weren't able to conclude
20 specifically how to manage the water table to
21 actually achieve any level of phosphorus reduction.
22 The other field experiment was one in
23 which there was both drained lands and sugar cane is
24 being grown on, and drainage on land that sugar cane
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 78
1 is between being grown on, and to try to determine
2 if in both cases if there was a big difference of
3 phosphorus in the drainage water and the conclusion
4 was no, there wasn't. And the effect of that study
5 was to show that the drainage, per se, was an
6 important determinant of the phosphorous load, so
7 both those studies had to do with drainage and water
8 table management.
9 Q. Further down in the paragraph, I was just
10 referring to -- you stated, "short-term field
11 studies are inherently limited as vehicles of
12 demonstrating the effectiveness of best management
13 practices." Can you explain to me why you believe
14 that sentence is true?
15 A. The agriculture nonpoint source pollution
16 problems really result from a combination of
17 factors, one of which is weather. As the weather
18 varies from year to year, the agriculture has to be
19 managed in different ways and you have a very wet
20 year, you have to have more drainage than a dry year
21 and conversely the growing season is very, very dry.
22 So, you have to use more water. So every year in
23 agriculture production situations really quite
24 differ mainly due to the weather.
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 79
1 Now, what that means is the particular
2 combination of phosphorous loads, for example, that
3 might come out of any area are going to certainly be
4 different from year to year due to the differences
5 in the weather, and if you're going to study the
6 effect of the practice, and you have a field study
7 and the practice, perhaps, is shown to reduce the
8 phosphorous load by a certain percentage in one
9 year, it may not do that the following year because
10 the weather is quite different. So, the actual
11 effectiveness of the practice would vary from year
12 to year depending on the weather. Unless you looked
13 at the practice for a range of different weather
14 conditions, it would be very difficult to draw
15 scientific conclusions. In fact, scientifically it
16 would really be quite impossible to draw general
17 conclusions.
18 Q. Does the explanation you just provided
19 apply regardless of whether you're looking at annual
20 effects or seasonal effects or whatever time period
21 you're looking at?
22 A. Yes, it does, because the annual effects
23 will be the sum of the seasonal or daily effects, so
24 it's certainly quite possible that the annual
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 80
1 quantity of nutrients of an area would be very, very
2 different from year to year, also from season to
3 season.
4 Q. In the next paragraph after the one I was
5 just referring to, the second sentence states,
6 "certainly in this case no one could reasonably
7 argue that we should wait for ten years of research
8 before beginning reducing the EAA's P load to the
9 Everglades." Can you explain what you meant by that
10 sentence?
11 A. It's my understanding that the Everglades
12 pollution problem, whatever it is, is a very serious
13 one and the Everglades, it's a national treasure to
14 the nation and to the state, so I certainly wouldn't
15 think that anybody would argue we have to wait
16 forever before we do something about cleaning up the
17 Everglades. It's really in that context, it wasn't
18 a scientific statement, it's a citizen of the US
19 type statement.
20 Q. At the bottom of this page we've been
21 looking at, you list components of a modeling study
22 that would provide evidence of the long-term
23 effectiveness of alternatives. I'd just like to go
24 through those components and have you provide a
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 81
1 little more detail about them. The first component
2 you provide is selections or development of an
3 appropriate model. Can you explain to me what's
4 involved in that component of a modeling study?
5 A. Basically, one would compare the problem
6 that one wants to solve with the capabilities of
7 existing models. Do the models describe what we are
8 concerned with, for example, phosphorous, do they
9 describe important elements of that problem, do they
10 describe elements of that problem that might be
11 unique to this situation that you're doing. If so,
12 then one can select the model that already exists.
13 If there do not appear to be any models that meet
14 that requirement, then one would have to develop new
15 models or modify existing models until they do meet
16 the needs of the particular problem.
17 Q. Are you aware of any models that have --
18 that exist or are being developed for showing the
19 long-term effectiveness of BMP alternatives for the
20 EAA?
21 A. I am aware of a model that could be used
22 for that purpose, the model I refer to in that
23 letter and is referred to in the 1991 report. I'm
24 not aware that it has been used for that purpose or
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 82
1 is being used for that purpose, but it could be used
2 for that purpose.
3 Q. Which model are you referring to?
4 A. The end of the letter there's Bottcher,
5 in their report they refer to a model in their
6 report of soil phosphorous they've developed through
7 the Everglades, agriculture area.
8 Q. Have you done a review of that model?
9 A. Not really, all I have said is what they
10 have said in their model, so no, I haven't done a
11 review of it.
12 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether
13 their model is appropriate or not?
14 A. They have said and what they write is
15 that their model is capable of analyzing phosphorous
16 loads from irrigated land in this area, so I am
17 accepting what they have said. I have not analyzed
18 or looked at their model to know whether that is the
19 case or not, but they have said that is the
20 capability of their model.
21 Q. The second component you list is testing
22 and validation the model using field data?
23 A. One would actually have to have
24 experimental set-ups in the Everglades agriculture
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 83
1 area in which the phosphorous loads would be
2 measured. And one would model those situations and
3 see whether or not the model actually predicted the
4 same requirements as to what was measured, and if
5 the results were reasonably consistent, you'd say I
6 have a model that would describe the behavior well.
7 Q. All right. In the third component,
8 estimation of model parameters for alternative BMPS,
9 what's involved in that component?
10 A. One would have to look at how any
11 proposed BMPs would change the conditions in the
12 field. For example, a drainage, one might result in
13 lowering the water table more rapidly or more
14 slowly, all right? And then you would look at the
15 input parameters that you can adjust in the model,
16 and you would adjust one or more parameters to
17 account for that more rapid or slower drainage and
18 observe what happens, so it's essentially adjusting
19 the model input models to respond to the best
20 management practice.
21 Q. How would you go about determining what
22 specific adjustments to make to the model
23 parameters?
24 A. I would have to look very carefully to
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 84
1 the parameters of the model. There are parameters
2 to adjust to every model, sometimes many, sometimes
3 small. I'd have to look to the parameters, what BMP
4 is being proposed. I would want to do that first of
5 all. The next step would be how you then feel this
6 BMP would change one or more of these parameters, is
7 it going to increase the parameters to 30 percent,
8 20 percent, 10 percent? Is it going to change a
9 basic property of the soil, for example, the
10 hydraulic conductives, is that what we change in the
11 model? And then we would go ahead and make that
12 change. It would actually have to be done with more
13 than one individual, it would have to be done with
14 individuals who feel quite knowledgeable about the
15 specific soils, specific practices and so on.
16 Q. How would you go about determining which
17 parameters needed adjustment?
18 A. I think that's similar to the previous
19 question. I'd have to analyze the BMP, analyze the
20 model and see where the connections are. Example
21 might be the hydraulic conductives. If the BMP is a
22 water table management change, it might change the
23 hydraulic productivity, might not, too, but you ask
24 the same question about other parameters, is this
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 85
1 BMP likely to change this component.
2 Q. Moving on to the fourth component, what
3 would be involved in the selection of appropriate
4 scenerios?
5 A. Scenerios would involve a crop of
6 interest, be it sugar cane, be it vegetable
7 production, whatever, be it sugar cane followed by
8 rice, so you don't actually choose the type of crop
9 situations in which one would want to study. The
10 location of those situations, is there a predominant
11 soil, are there several predominant soils that are
12 best studied, so you wouldn't have to select those
13 things. One would have to select a certain type of
14 drainage program, a management program, a certain
15 way of growing the crops, a certain level of
16 fertilization. Perhaps all those things should
17 presumably correspond to the existing practices in
18 the area, and then you would also want to specify
19 what weather situations to examine, and there's
20 different ways of doing that, the best way of saying
21 we're going to simulate the situation for many, many
22 different weather patterns. So, we might take 50
23 different years of possible weather patterns and
24 simulate practices for all 50 different years, but
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 86
1 that would mean by scenario, picking 50 different
2 years of scenario, picking whatever seems most
3 consistent for the need.
4 Q. And final component, conduct a simulation
5 experiment, parenthesis, you state run the models,
6 statistically evaluate the results. What is more
7 specifically involved in that component of a
8 modeling study?
9 A. You would take a specific BMP and you
10 would model the situation both with and without the
11 BMP. And from that, you would have two sets of
12 simulation results, one would say if we do not put
13 the BMP in this, is the level of phosphorous coming
14 out. Second one, if you do install the BMP, this is
15 the level of phosphorous coming out the drainage.
16 We would have many different years of that
17 information. Suppose we did do the 50 years of the
18 simulation, 50 different years of annual evaluation
19 in two cases, so you'd have to compare those. And
20 the way you would compare that, some sort of
21 statistical test, annual average and ask the
22 question, are the two annual averages statistically
23 different. You might look at extreme cases, are
24 they statistically different in the dryest years or
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 87
1 wettest years and apply statistical tests, is the
2 mean different, and so on.
3 Q. I believe you stated you would look at
4 different BMPs. Is that different than looking when
5 you were conducting the simulation experiment, is
6 that different than looking at BMP scenerios?
7 A. Scenario might imply something other than
8 the BMPs. It implies what are the conditions under
9 which you want to evaluate BMPs, what farming
10 conditions, what weather conditions, what soils and
11 so on.
12 MR. GARVER: Ms. Court Reporter,
13 I'd like you to mark this next exhibit as
14 Haith Exhibit 3.
15 (Whereupon Haith Exhibit 3 was
16 marked for identification)
17 BY MR. GARVER:
18 Q. Dr. Haith, I'm handing you what's been
19 marked as Haith Exhibit 3, can you identify that
20 document, please?
21 A. These were the notes that I put together
22 as I was reading the documents to help me remember
23 what was in them.
24 Q. Do you recall when you produced this
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 88
1 document or when you wrote it?
2 A. It would have been over a period of a few
3 days in early May of 1992.
4 Q. Do you recall whether this was in
5 conjunction with the first task you were asked to do
6 or second task?
7 A. No, I don't, but I think I would have
8 begun the notes with the first task and finished
9 them with the second task.
10 Q. I'd like you to turn to page three of
11 this exhibit, at the bottom of the page under the
12 heading section on best management practices, you
13 write: "This section is bizarre. BMP
14 recommendations which are not remotely supported by
15 the field study." Can you explain what you meant by
16 that statement?
17 A. What I meant is exactly what I say there,
18 actually, the section on BMP did not relate to the
19 actual research that was done in the study.
20 Q. In that statement, the field studies,
21 does that refer to the study that's reported in the
22 1991 Izuno/Bottcher report?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did the 1992 Izuno/Bottcher report
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 89
1 provide some support for the BMP recommendations
2 that you're referring to in this statement I just
3 read?
4 A. It provides support for the practices,
5 but not for the percentage removals associated with
6 the practices. In other words, it provided evidence
7 that these might be reasonable practices, but didn't
8 provide support for the specific levels of removal
9 that might be achieved by the practices.
10 Q. When you say it didn't provide support,
11 do you mean that it provides no support whatsoever
12 or insufficient support for the percentage removals?
13 A. It provided insufficient support for the
14 percentage removals.
15 Q. In what way did it provide some support
16 for the percentage removals?
17 A. Maybe I misunderstood. I don't think it
18 provided any support for the percentage removals, I
19 think what it did provide support for was that
20 these -- maybe I just said no, it provided no
21 support for the percentage removals.
22 Q. Did it provide support for some removal
23 of phosphorous?
24 A. It provided support that these might be
Douglas Haith by Mr. Garver 90
1 reasonable practices. I think that's maybe the best
2 way to put it, or these were promising practices or
3 potential practices.
4 Q. On the next page of the Exhibit Number 3,
5 under the heading introduction, the first one says,
6 "excessive wet season followed