254 1 2 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA 3 CASE NOS. 92-3038 4 92-3039 92-3040 5 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF ) 6 FLORIDA, et. al., ) ) 7 Petitioners, ) ) 8 vs. ) ) 9 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, ) 10 ) Respondent. ) 11 ) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et. al.,) 12 ) Intervenors ) 13 14 99 Northeast 4th Street Miami, Florida 15 March 4, 1994 8:36 a.m. - 12:19 p.m. 16 17 18 Continued Deposition of Doctor Courtney T. Hackney 19 20 Taken before Stan Seplin, Certified Shorthand 21 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of 22 Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of Taking 23 Deposition filed in the above cause. 24 - - - - - - - 25 JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 255 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS: 4 Earl, Blank, Kavanaugh & Stotts, P.A. 5 Two South Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 3636 Miami, Florida 33131 6 BY: William L. Hyde, Esq. 7 ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES: 8 United States Department of Justice Environmental and Natural Resources Division 9 Post Office Box 663 Washington, D.C. 20044-0663 10 BY: Stephen G. Bartell, AUSA 11 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS: 12 Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, LTD. 100 Southeast 2nd Street, Suite 4000 13 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: Paul L. Nettleton, Esq. 14 15 - - - - - - - 16 I N D E X 17 WITNESS CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS Dr. C.T. Hackney 256 488 497 18 19 EXHIBITS Hackney 9 through 13 - Page 440 20 Hackney 14 - Page 441 Hackney 15 - Page 482 21 Hackney 16 - Page 492 22 23 24 25 JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 256 1 Thereupon: 2 Doctor Courtney T. Hackney, 3 was recalled as a witness by the United States, and 4 after being previously duly sworn, was examined and 5 testified under oath as follows: 6 CROSS EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. NETTLETON: 8 Q. Doctor Hackney, my name is Paul 9 Nettleton, representing the South Florida Water 10 Management District in this case. 11 Before we get started this morning, Mr. 12 Bartell has agreed to allow me to pick up at this 13 stage, and that he will finish up afterwards, if 14 that's acceptable with Mr. Hyde. 15 MR. HYDE: It is. 16 BY MR. NETTLETON: 17 Q. Doctor Hackney, I would like to go back 18 over specifically some of your opinions, and I'll 19 try to be as unrepetitive as possible, with the 20 understanding that there may be some repetition, 21 just to put things in context. 22 Specifically, what I would like to deal 23 with first, are the six or so areas that you 24 mentioned that you expect to be presenting testimony 25 or conclusions at trial. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 257 1 The first of those was the fungi 2 bacteria relationship to decomposition. 3 I'm going to skip that one now, and go 4 through the other ones. 5 The second one you mentioned, was 6 cattail and sawgrass growth. 7 Am I correct in that your opinion on 8 this particular area, is that nutrient and hydrology 9 are inseperable, as they affect cattail and sawgrass 10 growth? 11 A. I would say that those two, as well as 12 probably some other variables, all work 13 interactively. 14 Q. Can you tell me what you base that 15 opinion on, that they are not seperable? 16 A. Well, I can tell you-- I can give you a 17 couple of approaches that I would use. 18 I-- the first, and probably the most 19 compelling, is that the level of water over a soil, 20 over a plant, influences both the plant's 21 production, and influences the ability of that 22 particular plant to take up nutrients, for 23 instance. 24 It does it in a-- in many ways, 25 depending on the individual species, individual JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 258 1 circumstance, so forth. 2 I think the manner that is probably best 3 documented, is what happens to the soil when it's 4 flooded continuously and all the time, in that the 5 redox potential is typically different. The amount 6 of oxygenation in the soil is different, and those 7 nutrients are typically different, more available, 8 less available, etcetera. 9 Secondly, I would base it upon the 10 general literature, which typically finds that the 11 physical characteristics of the site, mostly 12 hydrology, nutrient availability, water quality-- 13 when I say that, composition of water, for instance, 14 acidic, basic, salty, less salty-- all those things 15 together, work synergistically to determine whether 16 a plant grows better or not as good. 17 Q. Anything else that you're basing that 18 on? 19 A. Yes. I would say that I'm also basing it 20 on some of the documents that you have seen, 21 documents like the Nancy Urban, et. al., study, in 22 which they looked at nutrients in a variety of ways, 23 and also attempted to look at some hydrologic 24 characteristics, and I would submit that if any of 25 those characteristics were working independently-- JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 259 1 hydrology, for instance, being the only one, or 2 nutrients, being the only characteristic, I think 3 that their ability to discriminate areas with high 4 nutrients, low nutrients or more water, less water-- 5 I think their ability would have been far greater 6 than it turned out to be. 7 Their statistics were less confusing to 8 them, as well as everyone else. 9 It wasn't anything unexpected, I don't 10 think. 11 I think what they saw from that 12 initial-- that initial experiment, was, in 13 retrospect, probably what one would expect. 14 I would have probably carried out 15 something similar to that, if it were me doing the 16 same kind of studies, from where they were at that 17 time. 18 The fact they didn't get something 19 fairly distinctive, suggests what one would expect, 20 they are interactive. 21 I think I also mentioned that that was 22 one of the areas in which I could see my opinion 23 changing, maybe dramatically, given the two 24 manuscripts that I mentioned, perhaps being 25 available sometime in the near future, and that was JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 260 1 the Newman, Grace lab study, also. 2 This is a lab study that may shed some 3 light on those interactions, and also the Kraft, 4 Richardson study, which would include all the years, 5 because the only one I have seen was one year, and 6 there are also some tidbits from some of the other 7 manuscripts. 8 I'm trying to recall exactly which ones 9 they were, in which people were looking at nutrient 10 effects on plant growth, looking at plant production 11 across the Everglades. 12 My recollection is that it was one of 13 Davis' papers, but I would have to sit down and go 14 through them. 15 Q. Referring to Steve Davis? 16 A. Yes, but as I said, there really, in my 17 opinion, has not been really a definitive study done 18 on that particular subject, and I'm hoping that some 19 of these will be a little more definitive than 20 what's happened in the past. 21 Q. When you say these, you're referring to 22 the Newman, Grace or Kraft, Richardson studies? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Can you think of any other bases that 25 you may be relying on to form this particular JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 261 1 opinion? 2 A. Well, I would say that my own 3 observations, too, would certainly be a part of the 4 way in which I look at that. 5 I would not use my own observations as 6 the sole source, particularly if there were good 7 documented studies that clearly demonstrate 8 something that appeared different than the 9 hypothesis one might develop being out there, but 10 they certainly have to influence-- 11 Q. Anything else that you may be basing 12 this opinion on? 13 Again, just so we're clear, what we're 14 talking about is the cattail and sawgrass growth, as 15 opposed to zonation, which is a different issue. 16 A. So we're just talking about growth now? 17 Q. That's what I understood your testimony 18 was related to. 19 Were you talking about that? 20 A. Yes. I think it's pretty difficult to 21 separate the two entirely. 22 I mean, I think that there are a number 23 of other studies. 24 If you're concentrating primarily on 25 growth, that demonstrates, for instance, that JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 262 1 cattail resonds to nutrients fairly quickly, fairly 2 rapidly, and sawgrass doesn't seem to respond as 3 rapidly, but clearly, from, again, my observations 4 and some of the data that are out there, is a 5 response from sawgrass, but it seems to be much more 6 reduced, in terms of how quickly it happens. 7 I-- the observations, for instance, in 8 the Loxahatchee. The most luxuriant stand of 9 sawgrass that I ever saw within the Loxahatchee, in 10 areas that have been reported to-- or you might 11 think would have somewhat higher phosphorus 12 exposure, but I don't know exactly how that affects 13 the plants. 14 I would have guessed, before starting to 15 read all this literature, that there was a-- there 16 would be a direct relationship between soil 17 phosphorus. 18 I'm not convinced that is true, and I 19 don't know why, but part of this may have have to do 20 with the mechanism by which one measures the 21 phosphorus in the soil, and most of them are total 22 phosphorus, and one would like to know what would be 23 available phosphorus, on sort of a short-term basis, 24 and there's reference to that in one of Richardson's 25 reports, looking at how you analyze phosphorus in JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 263 1 soil, and what's available and what's not. 2 Q. The testimony you just gave concerning 3 the literature that refers to cattail uptaking, if 4 that's the right word, phosphorus more, efficiently 5 than sawgrass-- would that relate more to the 6 question of the zonation? 7 A. No. It would relate more to 8 productivity. 9 Zonation is related to productivity at 10 some particular level. 11 For instance, if a plant is not doing 12 well enough under the set of physical conditions to 13 be able to continue to maintain itself. If it's 14 basically spending more money, more energy to stay 15 alive than it's making in photosynthesis, then 16 productivity is going to be related to the zonation, 17 because ultimately those plants are going to die, 18 and once that happens, there's a potential for 19 zonation, a shift in plant species, so there's a 20 minimum level at which the plants have to be growing 21 to maintain their position in the environment, so 22 yes, it is related to zonation, but extreme growth 23 is not necessarily related to zonation. 24 Q. I would like to back up, and the first 25 item that you mentioned, that-- JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 264 1 A. I'm-- 2 Q. I'm sorry? 3 A. No. Go ahead. I jumped ahead. I was 4 anticipating. I'm sorry. 5 Q. The first item that you mentioned as a 6 basis for this opinion, was that water over plant 7 affects the-- the water over the plant, affects the 8 plant production, and affects nutrient 9 availability-- I'm sorry, I guess nutrient uptake is 10 what you were talking about. 11 Can you tell me what you're relying on 12 for that opinion? 13 A. That's a pretty-- pretty large body of 14 literature. 15 The best developed body of literature on 16 that aspect, is-- comes from work with salt marshes, 17 in which the degree of flooding has been changed, 18 increased, and which the plants are having a 19 difficult time maintaining their status relative to 20 oxygenation of the soils. 21 You asked about the literature. Some of 22 the literature-- much of the literature comes from 23 Louisiana. In fact, I seem to recall the Irv 24 Mendelson study has been pretty heavily involved in 25 quite a bit of that. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 265 1 Some of it comes from looking at redox 2 potential across wetlands that are flooded, more or 3 less, in which the more it's flooded, the-- the more 4 it's flooded, the lower potential is to lower the 5 PH, which makes some nutrients unavailable. 6 The ability of a plant to maintain 7 itself, particularly under anaerobic conditions, is 8 greatly reduced when the plant does not have enough 9 energy to pump oxygen into its roots, so more 10 flooding covers more of the leaves, so they have 11 less photosynthetic time, photosynthetic ability. 12 I think I would also add that each 13 species typically has unique attributes to take up 14 nutrients, under a variety of conditions, and 15 although there are similarities between species, 16 there are often typically differences, too, that 17 relate to the seasons which they are likely to be 18 found. 19 That, in fact, relates to zonation. 20 Q. Are you saying that it's best to look at 21 each system individually, to determine how these 22 effects are occurring? 23 A. One needs probably to look at individual 24 species, and look at their nutrient uptake 25 capabilities, along gradients, for instance. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 266 1 Greenhouse experiments are fairly 2 universal for that. 3 But also, one has to look at the 4 interaction of the plant with the microbial 5 community, as well, and I mention the fungi as being 6 a potential employer in this, and I wouldn't go very 7 far out on a limb on that, because we simply don't 8 know very much about fungi and plants and wetlands 9 yet, but all of those variables can play towards who 10 is going to be where, in terms of which plant 11 species. 12 Q. This body of literature that you've 13 mentioned that discusses these various things, have 14 you made a particular effort to study that 15 particular body of literature for your testimony in 16 this case, or are you simply relying on your general 17 background? 18 A. I'm relying on my general background in 19 this area, because it's an area that I'm fairly 20 familiar with. 21 Salt marsh zonation is one of my main 22 interests, and also, one of my other interests is 23 the impact of sea level rise on coastal wetland, and 24 one of those impacts is increasing water over a 25 wetland, and so what happens to those wetland as JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 267 1 they get more flooded, is of interest to me, and how 2 it directly impacts the individual species of 3 interest, so I keep up with that general body of 4 literature. 5 I didn't particularly look at that in 6 terms of this testimony. I consider that for 7 background. 8 Q. Would you expect that there would be a 9 difference in the effects between a salt water 10 wetland and a freshwater wetland in this particular 11 area? 12 A. Well, I think that there will be-- 13 clearly there will be differences, because one 14 system is-- got more stuff in the water, it's more 15 saline, but in other ways, it-- there are going to 16 be similarities, too, particularly as it relates to 17 oxygen in the sediment. 18 That's primarily driven by the 19 difficulty that oxygen has moving through water, and 20 the high oxygen uptakes of decomposition in the 21 surface of the marsh soil which takes it up, and so 22 just a little bit of drainage, for instance, 23 oxidizes the soil. That can change PH, so forth, and 24 that can-- so the plant has the option to take it up 25 and change nutrient availability. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 268 1 Q. Have you, yourself, or in combination 2 with others, personally been involved in any 3 research in the Everglades, to specifically look at 4 the effects of water over plants on the production 5 and effects of nutrient uptake? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Are you aware of anyone that has 8 conducted that research? 9 A. I-- 10 Q. In the Everglades? 11 A. The only literature of which I'm aware 12 that I hope will address some of those points, and 13 I'm not sure if it's the way that I would approach 14 it, are the two studies that I mentioned earlier; 15 Newman, Grace, Richardson-- 16 Q. Kraft? 17 A. Kraft. 18 I know that at one time there was an 19 attempt to do a study on sawgrass and cattail in the 20 greenhouse, under different water levels, in-- under 21 different nutrient regimens, at Duke, and my 22 understanding was that they couldn't get cattails to 23 grow, as I recall. 24 That's all I remember about that 25 conversation, and-- and to the best of my knowledge, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 269 1 that was not finished, or if it was, that was 2 finished with just one species. 3 It was part of a masters thesis, as I 4 remember. 5 Q. Do you know who was doing that masters 6 thesis? 7 A. No. It was being done-- it may have 8 been one of Curt Richardson's students, or he was on 9 their committee. 10 I couldn't tell you for sure. 11 MR. HYDE: Paul, it was one of Curt's 12 graduate students, a young lady whose deposition was 13 taken by Susan Ponzoli in the first round. 14 MR. NETTLETON: I heard about it. 15 BY MR. NETTLETON: 16 Q. Did that not add enough phosphorus to 17 get the cattails growing? 18 A. Well, it's those kind of almost 19 anecdotal data that are always just a little bit 20 disturbing, and that's not an uncommon problem in 21 trying to grow wetland plants, some of which seem to 22 grow with wild abandon in the wild, and in the 23 greenhouse, under nice, neat, controlled conditions, 24 with wonderfully augmented soils, refuse to 25 cooperate, and it's that sort of information that JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 270 1 makes many of us wetland scientists think that there 2 are connections between the soil community and the 3 plants, themselves, and that's what probably is 4 going to make the teasing of these various 5 environmental factors that are related to plant 6 growth, potentially to zonation, difficult to figure 7 out in short terms, without really detailed 8 experiments that go for some period of time. 9 I would suggest it's going to be an 10 iterative process, and although I have high hopes 11 for the two studies I mentioned, I predict some of 12 what they are going to get, will be predictable in 13 other aspects, are going to be confusing, because of 14 those other variables that are hard to measure at 15 one time. 16 Q. Do you know what did go wrong with the 17 Duke greenhouse study? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Have you discussed that with anyone at 20 Duke? 21 A. No. 22 My conversation with Curt-- I think I 23 initiated it and called him, and asked him would he 24 consider or had he thought about designing a 25 greenhouse experiment to look at competition between JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 271 1 two species, who start out on an even plane, you 2 know, two in a pot, one of each, and we had a 3 conversation about that experiment that had been 4 started, because I think that was the initial idea. 5 Q. And did he tell you his view of why it 6 wasn't successful? 7 A. Not that I recall, no. 8 Q. When was the last time you have spoken 9 with Curt Richardson? 10 A. The last time I spoke with Curt 11 Richardson, was-- I think that was before June, '93. 12 Maybe even earlier than that-- at least 13 about this case. 14 I can't even remember speaking to him 15 since that time. I can't remember speaking to him 16 since I left BDA. 17 Q. Do you recall when the last time you 18 spoke with Chris Kraft was? 19 A. I-- 20 Q. If you've ever spoken with him? 21 A. Of course. I have spoken with Kraft a 22 number of times. 23 Most of the time when I was trying to 24 get a hold of Curt, I would get Chris. 25 I have known-- I don't know. I would JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 272 1 say it would be back in the same time frame when I 2 was back in BDA. 3 Q. Without a specific time frame on the 4 last time you spoke with either Chris Kraft or Curt 5 Richardson, do you recall discussing their dosing 6 study? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 I think I mentioned yesterday, I was in 9 charge of review of his article submitted to 10 wetland-- when I say in charge, I was the one who 11 was responsible for picking people to review it, and 12 so I communicated when that was returned to-- I'm 13 sure it went back to Chris. 14 I communicated with him, relative that 15 manuscript, but I don't believe I have talked with 16 him since I left BDA. 17 Q. And that manuscript, is that the one 18 that you're talking about, that contains the first 19 year of data? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have knowledge of whether data 22 was collected after that first year? 23 A. I have no direct knowledge. 24 In other words, I didn't see it 25 collected. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 273 1 My understanding was that that study was 2 ongoing, and was going to last multiple years. 3 Q. Where did you get that understanding 4 from? 5 A. It's either been from a conversation 6 with Curt or Chris, or it may be contained in the 7 manuscript, itself. 8 I just don't recall. 9 Q. Does that manuscript-- does that deal 10 with the dosing study? Is that right, or-- 11 A. That's the manuscript that I think I 12 wrote on. 13 Q. Are you familiar with the fertilizer 14 study that Curt Richardson is engaged in? 15 A. Was it-- can you tell me if it was in 16 one of the annual reports? 17 Q. I believe it was. 18 A. There were quite a few studies that were 19 initiated, in which the methods were reported in 20 those reports, and I recall seeing those, although I 21 couldn't swear under oath that that's what it was. 22 My recollection was that there were some 23 fertilizer studies going on, but that there hadn't 24 been any data produced up to the time I read those 25 reports. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 274 1 Q. I just want to clarify, the study, 2 though, you're referring to in your testimony, is 3 the dosing study that Curt Richardson and Chris 4 Kraft are engaged in? 5 A. The field study, as I recall. 6 But as I said yesterday, if there are 7 documents out there or studies going on that I have 8 not seen, or that are different than I was 9 anticipating, that yield information on interaction 10 between plants or how the plants respond to nutrient 11 or hydrology, they, too, would go into the big pool 12 of data, and hopefully, some wonderful synthesis 13 come out. 14 Q. Have you seen any date from the Duke 15 wetlands study, relating to this particular study, 16 since the manuscript? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What is the latest annual reports from 19 Duke wetlands that you have seen, if you can put a 20 date on it? 21 A. It would have been whatever was 22 available before I left BDA, so that would be spring 23 of '93, whatever was available then. 24 Q. Are you aware of any drafts of the '92, 25 '93 or '94 annual reports being circulated JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 275 1 anywhere? 2 A. I'm not aware of anything that was 3 available in terms of final form, after spring of 4 '93. 5 I have not reviewed any documents or any 6 drafts for Curt or anyone from Duke. 7 Q. Okay. My question isn't whether you 8 reviewed them, but my question is whether you are 9 aware of any being in existence. 10 A. Personally, I'm not aware of them. 11 I assume that they are coming, because 12 there have been sort of annual ones, but I'm not 13 aware that there are. 14 Q. Have you spoken with Jim Grace at all 15 about his study? 16 A. I have spoken with Jim Grace. 17 I-- 18 Q. Let me rephrase the question, then. 19 Have you spoken with Jim Grace, 20 specifically about the issues involved in this case? 21 A. Other than to say, "You're working on 22 this. I'm working on this. It's kind of a mess, 23 yes," and I think that was probably the extent of 24 our conversation, since he was involved with it and 25 I was involved with it, and I'm not sure what side JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 276 1 he's on, to be real honest with you. 2 Since he worked for a federal agency, we 3 just decided we weren't going to discuss it, which 4 was unfortunate, because I think we could both have 5 gained something. 6 Q. Am I correct, then, you have not 7 discussed the Grace, Newman study with Jim Grace at 8 all? 9 A. No. I would love to. 10 If you give me permission to talk to 11 him, I would love to. 12 Q. The second bases that you mentioned for 13 your opinion, was that flooding affects the redox in 14 such a way that it can affect the availability of 15 the nutrient. 16 Is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Again, what are you basing that position 19 on? 20 A. On a fairly large body of data, 21 including soil information from farming studies, 22 agricultural studies. 23 Much of it or many of the papers on 24 that, are generated by Bill Patrick and the group at 25 LSU. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 277 1 That is a fairly extensive set of 2 literature. 3 I cannot recall there being a study-- at 4 least I haven't seen one, or I would have surely had 5 it here and you would have seen it-- on exactly what 6 happens, reference in the Everglades, specifically, 7 or either of the two species that we're talking 8 about in their natural environment. 9 It's an obvious thing to do, perhaps, 10 but no one has done it. 11 Q. So as far as you know, you're not aware 12 of any research directed, specifically related to 13 this issue of redox from flooding, affecting 14 availability of nutrient, conducted in the 15 Everglades system? 16 A. There are some studies of redox 17 potential in the Everglades that I have seen, and I 18 have details of it. 19 I do remember looking at it and trying 20 to see whether there were some nice, neat patterns 21 that maybe jumped out at me, and I don't recall 22 there being any. 23 But I don't recall there being any 24 specific studies looking at the plants, per se, and 25 the nutrient availability, per se. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 278 1 I think there's some-- there's obviously 2 some indirect evidence that plants take up nutrients 3 in the Everglades, and Davis-- how phosphorus and 4 some other nutrients, in high nutrient, what they 5 call background sites-- there's evidence that the 6 plants take that up; I mean, good evidence, but how 7 that is influenced by hydrology, is not clear. 8 There's interesting factual information 9 in Urban's paper, where cattails disappear in years 10 of droughts, for instance, in the high nutrient 11 areas, that has some suggestions of maybe what's 12 happening relative the plant uptake of nutrient or 13 not uptake of nutrients, as it relate to hydrology, 14 but all those would be suppositions; I mean, just 15 little pieces of information that make you curious, 16 that don't really tell you anything, per se. 17 Q. Wouldn't you expect cattails to die out, 18 even in a high nutrient situation, if there's no 19 water? 20 A. I would expect them to be influenced by 21 hydrology, as I said earlier, as well as nutrients. 22 I find it a little bit surprising that 23 they disappear at low water. 24 There are a lot of places where sites 25 dry to some degree, and cattail species, including JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 279 1 domingensis, maintain themselves in the soil, 2 rhizomes and so forth. 3 Without being able to have seen exactly 4 how extensive that drying was; in other words, how 5 dry did the soil get, and maybe some other data, 6 it's hard to know what to make of that, other than 7 it responded to the dropping water levels. 8 A. You're referring to the Urban study? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The next thing you mentioned as a bases 11 for your opinion here, was the fact that the general 12 literature indicates that the physical 13 characteristics control the plant growth, and you 14 mentioned hydrology, nutrients and general water 15 quality. 16 Again, my question will be the same as 17 before. 18 Have you done any specific literature 19 analysis to support that opinion, or are you just 20 basing th at on your general background and 21 knowledge? 22 A. Could you read that back? 23 (Thereupon the referred to 24 question was read back by the 25 reporter as above recorded.) JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 280 1 THE WITNESS: You mean the influence of 2 the multiple variables, physical variables? 3 BY MR. BARTELL: 4 Q. Well, specifically, as I recall your 5 testimony, you indicated that the general literature 6 indicates that the physical characteristics which I 7 believe you defined as including hydrology, nutrient 8 and general water quality parameters, is the 9 dominant controlling factor of plant growth. 10 Is that correct? 11 A. The dominant factors-- all those 12 together, yes. 13 Q. My question is simply, have you done any 14 specific research into this area for purposes of 15 your testimony here? 16 A. The answer is no, for purposes of these 17 proceedings. 18 I recently completed a study with a 19 group of students in a tidal marsh, looking at 20 physical variables, multiple physical variables, and 21 how they affect plant communities, and in this 22 particular case, there was six distinct vegetative 23 communities along a number of gradients, a gradient 24 of flooding, a gradient of salinity, and a gradient 25 of differential reduction potential in soils, and JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 281 1 what we found basically, again, supports the general 2 literature, that no individual variable explained 3 the distribution of the plant zones, but when those 4 variables were combined, one could explain quite a 5 bit of the variation across all of the zones, except 6 two. 7 Two of the growth zones overlapped with 8 respect to their preference for physical variables. 9 There were two groups that overlapped, 10 and the rest of them were fairly distinct, and in 11 our analysis of our sites, we concluded that at 12 least one of the two zones which did overlap, we 13 could have separated with a number of physical 14 characteristics at the site. 15 Those data are not unusual. That is 16 sort of the norm as to what people find. 17 There's another study by Warren and 18 Gosley, or Gosley and Warren, from New England, 19 that's been submitted for publication, which 20 basically shows the same sort of phenomena, that a 21 multiple group of physical chemical variables, 22 influenced which species are going to be in a zone, 23 and their study goes even further. 24 It's a longer study done in an area 25 about which they knew a lot, and in that study, what JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 282 1 they found was that some communities were really 2 well defined by physical variables, but then there 3 were some communities that were in transition, in 4 which the physical variables, at least one or more, 5 had been exceeded in terms of the capacity of the 6 plant community to uptake, and show the plant 7 communities start dying, it's not-- and at that 8 point, the community undergoes a fairly dramatic and 9 rapid shift of one form to the other, and their 10 study also documents another phenomena that I guess 11 relates here, and that is that the plant community, 12 itself, has a high degree of resiliency, can sort of 13 hold out against the odds for quite a while, until 14 it just finally loses, and then there's a very rapid 15 and dramatic shift of one form of vegetation to 16 another, ultimately results in a stable zone of 17 another type of plant, and I would say that both of 18 those studies have relevancy in the generic sense, 19 in that that is the way that physical variables 20 typically work on wetland communities. 21 Q. Taking that from the generic sense to 22 the specific sense, are you aware of any similar 23 studies being conducted in the Everglades? 24 A. No. 25 It would be a straightforward thing to JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 283 1 do. 2 I'm a little bit surprised that it 3 hasn't been done. I'm not aware of any. 4 Q. With regard to the Urban study you 5 mentioned yesterday, I believe that a reviewer of 6 that paper had concluded that there was a 7 relationship between between hydrology and the 8 cattail, sawgrass dominance issue. 9 Do you recall that? 10 A. I recall that. 11 It may not have been a reviewer that 12 made those comments. 13 It may have been one of the co-authors, 14 as I recall, of-- the history of that document, was 15 that it was originally a report or something by 16 Nancy Urban, maybe Steve Davis-- I can't remember 17 the authorship-- and it went through a series of 18 what looked like in-house reviews, or maybe even out 19 of house reviews, too, and there were numerous 20 versions of it, and at some point in time, a third 21 author, who was a statistician, was added, and did 22 just what we discussed yesterday, that-- looked at 23 the data in lots of different ways. 24 And as I recall, there was some 25 statement in one of the comments, relating to the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 284 1 fact that there weren't nice, neat patterns of 2 phosphorus in cattail, and that the only patterns-- 3 and I cannot remember whether these were 4 statistically significant or whether they would have 5 been appropriate for publication, but the only 6 patterns that seemed to be emerging, had some 7 relationship to hydrology, which doesn't really 8 surprise me at all. 9 I-- that study probably would have 10 yielded a whole lot more universal information, if 11 they had really known-- if they were interested in 12 knowing something about hydrology, because they did 13 not measure hydrology between the two different 14 communities at each of their stations, and so some 15 of the ability to tease out hydrologic impact 16 probably was lost because of the methods they used. 17 I'm not critisizing their method. It was 18 probably appropriate for their space and time and-- 19 when they started it, and-- well, I guess I answered 20 your question. 21 Q. Well, you mentioned that there was a 22 pattern, and one of these authors or reviewers 23 mentioned a pattern. 24 Have you done any independent work to 25 look at that data and determine whether or not there JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 285 1 is a statistically significant relationship between 2 hydrology and cattail? 3 A. No, because I, as I said-- I don't think 4 they collected appropriate data. 5 Their measure of hydrology at each 6 station, was-- their method, in fact, in the paper, 7 is very misleading. 8 Their method in the paper, suggests that 9 they measured the elevation in each of the different 10 communities, and, in fact, what they did is they 11 measured 100 points around each station, some of 12 which were in cattail, some of which were in 13 sawgrass, and they used that as their elevation to 14 the site, and if, for instance, hydrology was 15 extremely important, and there was a difference 16 amongst stations, then when you're in a site with 17 mostly cattail and some sawgrass, your 18 interpretation of the elevation at which sawgrass is 19 growing, is going to be based upon any cattail 20 samples, and the opposite would be true at the other 21 end; in a site with little cattail and lots of 22 sawgrass, your analysis of water depth would be 23 based on random points of the sawgrass, rather than 24 the cattail stand, and what should have been done 25 was for them to have measured the elevation in their JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 286 1 cattail stand and in their sawgrass stand. 2 That would have given them some ability 3 to separate or to see and look at the interaction of 4 hydrology and phosphorus, but again, I don't think 5 that was their intent in the beginning. 6 Also, one of their stations, their water 7 level measurements actually came off of a permanent 8 water level core some distance away, so it was kind 9 of a different measure. 10 Q. What is the source of your understanding 11 of how they determined these elevation numbers? 12 A. From Nancy Urban, in her deposition. 13 Q. Did you attend her deposition? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. If you were to take the elevation data 16 at face value, the water level data at face value, 17 does-- would it reflect a statistically significant 18 relationship between hydrology and cattail 19 distribution? 20 A. What do you mean at face value? 21 Q. Well, I understood when I asked you a 22 similar question before, you said that you couldn't 23 do that, because the data had been collected not 24 within the plots, but on the outside, so it doesn't 25 reflect the true water elevation. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 287 1 My question is, if you assume the data 2 they did collect were in there-- and I understand 3 that is not the case, this is a hypothetical-- if 4 you assume that, would those numbers reflect a 5 statistically significant correlation between 6 hydrology and cattail? 7 A. I haven't looked at the numbers, myself. 8 I mean, that is certainly within the 9 realm of possibility, particularly if there's an 10 elevational gradient across that gradient, as well. 11 In other words, if the water is deeper 12 where cattails are more prevalent, and shallower 13 where sawgrass is more prevalent, then 14 theoretically, you would get that. 15 On the other hand, if the elevation were 16 something different, you might not get a 17 correlation. 18 You also find a real, nice neat 19 correlation, if you look at cattails distance from 20 edge of canals, so correlations are a little bit 21 suspect, as you, I'm sure, are aware. 22 Q. Well, do you recall whether, in fact, in 23 the Urban paper, itself, as finally released-- did 24 they make a conclusion concerning the question of 25 whether or not there was a statistically significant JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 288 1 relationship between hydrology and cattail 2 distribution? 3 A. In a final draft? 4 I think you would have to let me take a 5 look at that paper, and make sure I'm thinking of 6 the final draft. 7 What I recall most from that paper was 8 that there-- their bottom line relative to 9 phosphorus, was that phosphorus loading, as they 10 describe it, and how they explained their 11 information, was related to cattail growth. 12 I don't specifically recall them saying 13 there was a correlation in hydrology. 14 Q. Well, that was my question. 15 Do you recall them ever making that 16 particular finding? 17 A. Not in their final draft, and I said 18 earlier, what I recalled about the reviews, and so 19 forth, was that as part of their statistical 20 approach, looking at things in multiple ways, that 21 was one of the things that popped out and that they 22 paid some attention to. 23 That does not mean that there's a 24 statistically significant cause and effect 25 relationship that they found, or even if that's what JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 289 1 that was referring to. 2 I interpret that to be just what I find 3 when I do my own research, do my own statistics, is 4 that one looks at all of the relationships that you 5 see, and ask the kinds of questions we discussed 6 yesterday, does this make sense, does it not make 7 sense, are these correlations valid, in light of 8 what I know about my own data, and I presume that 9 they decided that it was not valid in light of their 10 own data. 11 I'm sure they were up and up scientists. 12 Q. Well, am I correct, then, Doctor 13 Hackney, that the Urban study would not support the 14 conclusion or collusions that there is a 15 statistically significant relationship between 16 hydrology and cattail distribution? 17 A. I think you would be correct if you were 18 to say that the Urban, et. al., paper, does not 19 directly answer the question of hydrology, and the 20 only thing it does say about hydrology, is that the 21 loading variable that they used, could be very 22 easily correlated with hydrology, but there's no way 23 to test that, because they are looking at water 24 coming through those-- the amount of phosphorus 25 coming into northern 2-A, as they are loading-- as JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 290 1 their loading variable, and that could very easily 2 be related to hydrology. 3 I wouldn't say that it is, but I also 4 wouldn't say it wasn't. 5 It would be what I would look at fairly 6 carefully. 7 It's unclear for me, how, for instance, 8 there could be a direct linear relationship between 9 phosphorus loading and availability of that 10 phosphorus at various points along that transect, 11 and I say that, because if you were to look at what 12 happens when water comes through those gates, if 13 there's just a little coming through, and the water 14 is real low, then much of the water is going to 15 travel differently, in terms of how it gets to the 16 plant, and if you have got very high water, and 17 there's the same amount of phosphorus coming 18 through. 19 Their assumption in that, and it's-- 20 it's an appropriate assumption, given that they 21 don't know anything more than they did, was that 22 there is a linear relationship, and as I recall, 23 that was their approach, that there is a linear 24 relationship along that gradient. 25 At least that's implied in the way they JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 291 1 did it, so I would say that it does not directly 2 answer the hydrology question. 3 Either way, it begs the question and 4 tantalizes one with some possibilities, and I think 5 that what we saw in some of the early drafts, was 6 that they are being tantalized by that, too, but 7 their study was not set up to look at hydrology. 8 Let me just add one last thing to that. 9 Their study does show, in effect, an effect of 10 hydrology, but not through the manner which we were 11 discussing. 12 We were-- at least I was thinking in 13 terms of statistical analysis. 14 They study does shows a pattern of 15 hydrology, related to the dry areas and wet areas, 16 and as you mentioned earlier, the cattails 17 disappeared when there was no water, and 18 disappeared-- much more than I would have 19 anticipated, assuming this was just a normal 20 dry-down, but not knowing what the soil did, one 21 doesn't know how the plants responded, but that does 22 say something about extreme hydrology. 23 It doesn't say anything about the 24 intermediate stages, perhaps. 25 Q. Well, does the latter part of your JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 292 1 answer, does that-- have you analyzed that data to 2 determine whether there's any statistical 3 relationship between the dry-downs and the cattail 4 distribution? 5 A. No, I haven't. 6 Q. Have you or to your knowledge, anyone 7 else-- 8 A. Can I stop you one second? 9 Let me-- I had some notes to myself. 10 I lost my-- I had some details at one 11 time, and I cannot recall if it was that, if it was 12 analysis by someone of their data, or not. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I'm trying to think of that. 15 It was something that I think Irv 16 Mendelson said last week, that prompted me to think 17 about that. 18 No, it was just that I wrote down, there 19 may be a way to analyze Urban's data. 20 Q. Before you put your note away, can you 21 tell me what those were? 22 A. Those were questions that I had for Irv 23 Mendelson last week. 24 MR. NETTLETON: Are they on your 25 privileged list, Bill? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 293 1 MR. HYDE: I don't think they are, but 2 they are pretty clearly things that would be work 3 product, because they were used as things-- an aid 4 to Mark Kobelinski to ask questions. 5 MR. NETTLETON: What I just looked at was 6 a question that I had written down to Mark 7 Kobelinski regarding potential things to do, in 8 terms of looking at some other data that might be 9 available. 10 MR. NETTLETON: Mr. Hyde, do you have an 11 objection if we have copies of those notes made-- 12 MR. HYDE: Let me examine them at a 13 break, and if there's no problem, I will turn them 14 over to you. 15 MR. NETTLETON: I think in light of the 16 fact Doctor Hackney has reviewed them for purposes 17 of refreshing his recollection, I think we're 18 looking at them. 19 BY MR. NETTLETON: 20 Q. Just following up on that a bit, Doctor 21 Hackney, what specifically were you suggesting or 22 what data were you suggesting should be statistcally 23 analyzed or looked at? 24 A. I couldn't figure it out from my own 25 notes. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 294 1 It had something to do with a data set 2 that apparently existed, and I didn't write enough 3 notes, to be honest with you, to figure out, at 4 least in the very short time I spent, what it was. 5 As you recall, I was busy trying to 6 develop questions to ask Irv Mendelson. 7 Q. I mean, were you specifically referring 8 to using the data collected in the Urban study? 9 A. No. I-- asked me, and I was trying to 10 give you an honest answer, as best I recollected it, 11 and it clicked something in my mind, and when I 12 looked at that, I realized it had absolutely nothing 13 to do with Urban's study. 14 Q. Well, do you know-- I think I started to 15 ask you, and I didn't finish-- have you, or to your 16 knowledge, anyone else, taken the data collected in 17 the Urban studies, and attempted to create any type 18 of statistical relationship between the water levels 19 or any aspect of hydrology, and the cattail 20 distribution? 21 A. I have not, and I do not know of anyone 22 else that has. 23 Q. Am I correct, in light of your 24 understanding of how the water level data is 25 reflected, that any such attempt to do that, would JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 295 1 essentially lead to invalid results, in any event? 2 A. Could you repeat that question? 3 (Thereupon the referred to 4 question was read back by the 5 reporter as above recorded.) 6 THE WITNESS: I think it would be 7 difficult to interpret the results in a very 8 straightforward fashion. 9 BY MR. NETTLETON: 10 Q. All right. 11 A. Again, referring to the statistical 12 analysis. 13 Q. Another document you made reference to 14 as a bases for your opinions, is, I believe you 15 said, one paper by Steve Davis. 16 Was there more than one, or is it just 17 one that you recall from Steve Davis that relates to 18 this issue? 19 A. Specifically which issue? 20 Q. The issue of the inability to separate 21 the variables of nutrient hydrology or other 22 variables, concerning the affect on cattail and 23 sawgrass growth. 24 A. I think the paper that I was referring 25 to, was probably the primary productivity paper. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 296 1 Q. How does that paper support your 2 opinion? 3 A. Well, it provides generic information-- 4 more than generic, but specific to the species in 5 question and individual populations in question. 6 As I recall, it shows that-- you really 7 need to-- before I would tell you details of what it 8 showed, I would just tell you that it shows that 9 cattails respond to nutrient, which tells me that 10 they are getting them under a certain set of 11 conditions. 12 And I would really ask, if you want a 13 lot of details on that, to let me sit down and go 14 through that, and tease out the parts that I would 15 consider significant. 16 Q. Well, based upon your recollection, if 17 you've indicated that there's something in there-- 18 what is your understanding of what the paper shows, 19 with the understanding that you are not looking at 20 it right now, but that would support your opinion 21 that the variables are inseperable? 22 A. You would have to let me take a look at 23 the manuscript, but I'm not sure if I've got the 24 experimental designs of the different studies that 25 he's participated in totally separate in my mind. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 297 1 I think I know what I'm going to tell 2 you, but if this is for the record, I would like to 3 be 100 percent sure, since I don't have the paper 4 here, that's why I'm asking you, with the 5 qualification that you may be speculating-- I'm just 6 trying to get an understanding of what you think is 7 in that paper, that would support the inseperability 8 of the variables. 9 A. Well, I would say that I would like to 10 have a break. 11 I realize I'm not thinking clearly right 12 now. 13 I know it's in my mind. I can't make it 14 come out. It's very fuzzy in terms of his two other 15 studies, whether he did it and the design. 16 MR. NETTLETON: Fine. Let's take a 17 break. 18 (Thereupon a recess was taken 19 in the deposition, after which 20 the deposition continued as follows:) 21 BY MR. NETTLETON: 22 Q. Doctor Hackney, coming back from the 23 break now, do you have a better recollection of what 24 in the Steve Davis paper, would support your opinion 25 that the nutrient hydrology and other variables are JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 298 1 inseperable, as they affect cattail and sawgrass 2 growth? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is that? 5 A. There's differential growth along the 6 the gradient, and the gradient that was selected, 7 going from what's considered a high nutrient to low 8 nutrient. 9 There is no clear indication of whether 10 there is a hydrologic gradient with that, as well. 11 Also, the data, again, comes with 12 nutrients, and knowing what I know about the loading 13 phenomena, how it affects water height along that 14 gradient, one would-- I would suspect that there is 15 an interactive effect. 16 The degree of that interactive effect, I 17 don't know. There's nothing definitive in that 18 study, though. 19 Q. Am I correct, then, that-- if I 20 understood you correctly, the Davis paper simply has 21 no information concerning whether or not there is 22 also a hydrology gradient that occurs with the 23 phosphorus gradient? 24 A. (No response.) 25 Q. Let me rephrase. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 299 1 A. I think I kind of just lost the first 2 part of it. 3 Q. Am I correct, then, that the Steve Davis 4 paper simply contains no information concerning 5 whether or not there is a hydroperiod gradient, 6 along the areas that were sampled for purposes of 7 that study? 8 A. The hypothesis that they used in setting 9 up their study, was directly related to phosphorus, 10 itself. 11 They did not have a mechanism for 12 separating hydrologic impacts, and having been in 13 that area, myself, and gone through how one would 14 set up a study, it's very clear why they did what 15 they did. 16 It would have been a lot more time 17 consuming to have done both. 18 So the answer is, they did not establish 19 their hypothesis to test that at all. 20 Q. And you mentioned your knowledge 21 concerning the hydrology in the area. 22 What are you referring to? 23 A. My knowledge is based upon, again, 24 observations, having been in the area, on the basic 25 rules of hydrology, that water flows downhill, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 300 1 things of that nature, but as I said yesterday, I 2 did not carry out any hydrologic measures in that 3 site or at any of Steve Davis' sites. 4 Q. Yesterday when we were discussing your 5 opinion on zonation in the Everglades, you had 6 mentioned that you had-- in regard to evidence of 7 hydrology's influence on the cattail, sawgrass 8 dominance question, that you observed cattail in 9 deeper water; is that correct? 10 A. Yes. As a general statement, that's 11 correct. 12 Q. And when you say as a general statement, 13 that means you didn't actually go out and measure 14 the water depth at any of these particular places? 15 A. I did not collect data and put it in a 16 notebook, on water depth, and many occasions, 17 particularly in my first couple of excursions into 18 the Everglades, I asked to stop wherever I saw 19 cattails, and did things, for instance, like walk 20 between-- walk the transition between sawgrass and 21 cattails. 22 My best example of this is in the lower 23 part, where cattails seemed to be invading many of 24 the slough areas, or at least the ends of the 25 slough, and when one steps off the sawgrass and JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 301 1 takes a step down ten centimeters or more, one is in 2 then in cattail, and the observation, that very 3 uniformly there was a gradient, elevational gradient 4 between the dense sawgrass stands and the not very 5 dense cattail stands. 6 I observed the same thing in background 7 sites in the Loxahatchee, in areas up near northern 8 2-A, where there are fairly dense stands of 9 cattails, with some stands of sawgrass remaining. 10 Q. When you started your answer, you made 11 reference to the lower part where they were invading 12 slough areas. 13 Lower part of what? 14 A. WCA 2-A. 15 Q. Did you observe this same phenomena of 16 cattail growing in deeper water, in areas other than 17 2-A and the Loxahatchee? 18 A. I, personally, did not observe it, no, 19 not that I could see-- not where I actually 20 measured, no, I could not. 21 Q. And these places-- in these places where 22 you've observed the cattail growing in the deeper 23 water, did you collect any data to determine what 24 the phosphorus levels were in the surface water in 25 those areas? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 302 1 A. No, I did not. 2 Q. Did you collect any data in those areas, 3 as to the phosphorus levels in either the soil or 4 the interstitial water in those areas? 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. Would it surprise you to find out that 7 the phosphorus levels were elevated in those areas? 8 A. In some areas, it would surprise me. 9 In other areas, it would not. 10 I took your elevated, to mean something 11 above background. 12 Q. In what areas would you not expect to 13 see elevated phosphorus, where you saw cattail 14 growing in deeper water? 15 A. In some of the areas that were further 16 from the canals. 17 The areas that were further from the 18 canals, in the southern part, getting towards the 19 middle part. 20 Q. In which area? 21 A. WCA 2-A. 22 There were areas in the Loxahatchee-- 23 and again, I would have to look at the data that 24 were provided to you today, the phosphorus data, and 25 look back at some of the field notes in which there JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 303 1 were cattails growing in areas that were close to 2 what we were calling background-- but we did not 3 have cores from the cattail stands, per se, and that 4 could have been different from the areas where we 5 collected the cores, so I couldn't say for sure that 6 it was background. 7 Q. In the 2-A area where you saw cattail 8 growing in deeper water in this background location, 9 what was the circumstance which created the deeper 10 water? 11 A. They appeared to be sloughs, just 12 natural deeper bodies. 13 I did not take cores there. 14 It wouldn't have surprised me, if, in 15 fact, in those cores, I found, for instance, 16 evidence of past burns. 17 Again, I know that area had dried out at 18 one time, and there were fairly extensive fires, but 19 I don't have any maps showing where the areas were 20 and how deep a burn, so would it not surprise me 21 that some of those areas were as a result of fires, 22 and also resulted from alligator holes. 23 There are a number of hypotheses 24 concerning the deeper areas. 25 Q. Yesterday I believe you testified that-- JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 304 1 consistently that-- you mentioned burns and 2 alligator holes as the areas where you saw cattails 3 growing in deeper water. 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Would you agree, Doctor Hackney, in 6 areas where there's been burns or where alligator 7 holes existed, that you would expect to find 8 elevated phosphorus levels? 9 A. I would agree with that statement. 10 Q. And in these background areas, such as 11 an alligator hole where you have cattails growing, 12 do you see the cattail expanding spacially, outward 13 from the hole over time, historically? 14 A. I can't say what would happen with 15 time. 16 Obviously I didn't follow a particular 17 site for a long period of time. 18 In the instance or instances, one 19 could-- one could suppose expansion, if you looked 20 at the distribution of individual colonies, and the 21 general pattern was up in the-- adjacent to the 22 sawgrass, there would be the most typha colonies 23 growing. 24 These were not real dense, compared to 25 the high nutrient, and as one gets into deeper JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 305 1 water, into the slough, the density of the cattail 2 would drop off, ultimately, for example, if the 3 water was real deep, and at the other end of the 4 gradient, in the sawgrass stand, there would 5 frequently be very little overlap of the two, so 6 nice, neat dividing line, for the most part. 7 I couldn't say that that was the result 8 of a temporal expansion or contraction. 9 Q. Are you aware of any evidence to suggest 10 that cattails have expanded in any significant 11 fashion in background areas, where they have been 12 introduced or established in areas, such as 13 alligator holes? 14 A. I am not aware of specific studies that 15 have followed the expansion of cattails, per se, 16 into a specific area. 17 I am aware of a cattail map that shows 18 the distribution of cattails, and whether you 19 consider that a study or not, I don't know. 20 That expansion is in areas that are 21 outside of what is normally considered the high 22 nutrient areas. 23 Q. Whose cattail map is this? 24 A. This is the cattail map produced by BDA, 25 the '93 cattail map. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 306 1 Q. Are you relying on that map to support 2 any of your opinions? 3 A. My answer is no. Nothing I have said is 4 dealing, with-- again, I looked at that map for the 5 first time, the finalized version of that map, 6 Wednesday, so I really haven't had a chance to sort 7 of track my personal observations with that map, but 8 no, I'm not really relying on that at this time. 9 I intend to look at it and see if it 10 changes my views, and look at it fairly carefully. 11 MR. HYDE: Paul, this map is being 12 prepared for the deposition of Mike Dennis, so you 13 should have it in reasonably short order, but it's 14 not something that Courtney Hackney is relying on. 15 I just showed it to him the other day 16 when we were standing in the hall. 17 MR. NETTLETON: See what you're doing-- 18 what happens when you do that? 19 THE WITNESS: We're attempting to be as 20 honest and forthright as we can. 21 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record. 22 (Dicussion off the record.) 23 MR. NETTLETON: Before we move on to my 24 next area, just during the break, Mr. Hyde, you had 25 a chance to look at the notes that Doctor Hackney JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 307 1 had looked at during his earlier testimony, and am I 2 correct, it's your position still that those are 3 protected work product, and you will not turn them 4 over? 5 MR. HYDE: Yes. That is my position. 6 They reflect almost exclusively, they 7 were proposed questions that Doctor Hackney had 8 prepared for Mark Kobelinski during the Irv 9 Mendelson deposition. 10 I'm not going to preclude you from 11 asking any questions you feel you need to follow up 12 on your earlier line of questions, but I do not wish 13 at this time to turn over the document. 14 I think you have covered everything that 15 you needed to on this matter. 16 MR. NETTLETON: Just for the record, we 17 believe that the document is discoverable, and we 18 don't believe there's a work product privilege 19 attached to a testifying expert in this situation, 20 and secondly, the fact that he used it to refresh 21 his recollection, to some degree, would make it 22 discoverable, in any event. 23 MR. HYDE: Well, I think he used it to 24 refresh his recollection in response to your 25 questioning. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 308 1 MR. NETTLETON: I understand that. 2 THE WITNESS: You had asked me something 3 about whether I was aware of it, and before I could 4 say no, I had to find out if that had anything at 5 all to do with your question, because I just could 6 not remember whether it had anything to do with that 7 or not, so again, trying to be forthright and honest 8 in the answer to your question, to the best of my 9 ability. 10 BY MR. NETTLETON: 11 Q. And you found it necessary to review 12 that document, in order to refresh your 13 recollection, to, in fact, answer that question the 14 way you did, which was no? 15 A. I couldn't remember whether it had 16 anything to do-- there were so many topics at that 17 deposition, and one of them involved looking at some 18 information, data, reanalyze it, and I couldn't 19 remember what that reanalysis was, what data set was 20 involved. 21 Q. Yesterday during your deposition, you 22 stated that in your opinion, there is an imbalance 23 in the Everglades ecosystem occurring, and that it 24 will continue to occur. 25 Do you recall that testimony? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 309 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. And you made specific reference to 3 exotic species introduction. 4 Is that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And the exotic species you mentioned, 7 were the maleluca, and possibly exotic fish and bird 8 species, as well? 9 A. Potentially. 10 Q. Can you tell me what the cause is, in 11 your opinion, of the introduction of these exotic 12 species to the Everglades system? 13 A. What is the cause? 14 They were brought in. 15 Q. By-- 16 A. Someone-- some human being, 17 inadvertently or intentionally, moved them into this 18 habitat. 19 Those are the ones that I would consider 20 exotic, from a differential standpoint. 21 One could probably make the argument, 22 some of the ones could find their way here by 23 themselves, but to my definition, they wouldn't be. 24 Q. Other than the introduction of exotics 25 into the Everglades system, do you believe that JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 310 1 there is any other imbalance that the Everglades 2 ecosystem is currently experiencing? 3 A. I think that the Everglades ecosystem is 4 doing what the Everglades ecosystem has historically 5 done, to the extent that what has occurred in the 6 Everglades, is not outside of its normal maximum 7 range of change, and that is that the Everglades 8 ecosystem is attempting to store organics to bring 9 itself back in line with the idealized, or the 10 present hydrologic regimen. 11 The presence of more water, I would say, 12 is the driving force. 13 The lack of water in the past, has also 14 done exactly the same thing. 15 The system has attempted to reach 16 equilibrium. 17 I would say that the addition of 18 phosphorus or any other nutrient, is going to 19 probably drive that force faster. 20 In other words, if there's more nutrient 21 and more growth, the plant community is going to 22 respond more rapidly, accumulating sediment, 23 organics at a faster rate, attempting to heal 24 itself, if you will, to reach that equilibrium 25 again. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 311 1 I would not consider that an imbalance. 2 Q. You answered my next question. 3 Am I correct, Doctor Hackney, other than 4 the introduction of exotics into the system, you do 5 not believe that the Everglades system is currently 6 experiencing any other type of imbalance? 7 A. As I stated earlier, I think there may 8 well be some imbalance in portions of the 9 Everglades. 10 I, for instance, looked at some maleluca 11 stands, and it is very difficult to suggest that 12 vegetative community that we know as the maleluca, 13 has any of the characteristics that are normal for 14 the Everglades. 15 It's a different species. Its mode of 16 productivity is different. Its shading of the 17 surface of the marsh is different. 18 I would suspect that its accumulation of 19 organics is different. 20 Its ability to be consumed by organisms, 21 to be decayed by organisms, you would expect to be 22 different. 23 I consider that a major imbalance. 24 I observed fishermen in one of the 25 canals, catching a fish known as the common Oscar, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 312 1 astronautus ocellatus. 2 This is a cyclette from a tropical 3 system. There are many cyclettes that have been 4 noted as being in South Florida, some of which have 5 clearly found their way into some of the canals, and 6 as I also stated yesterday, disturbances are the 7 normal avenues by which exotics typically get 8 established in these systems, and the changes are 9 probably a wonderful avenue for many of those 10 introduced fishes. 11 Q. Let me try to rephrase my question, 12 then. 13 Is it your opinion that with the 14 exception of anything related to exotic species, if 15 we take those out of the picture-- is it your 16 opinion that the Everglades system is not suffering 17 from any other type of imbalance in any area? 18 A. Yes. That would be my opinion. 19 Q. So am I correct, then, that you do not 20 believe that either phosphorus or hydrology, is 21 currently causing any type of imbalance in the 22 Everglades ecosystem, again, excepting out anything 23 related to exotics? 24 A. I think that increased phosphorus and 25 increased hydrology, both lead towards certain kinds JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 313 1 of vegetative communities, that are a natural part 2 of the ecosystem of the Everglades, and I would say 3 that within the history of the Everglades, that have 4 been times and spaces where both hydrology that's 5 experienced in many of those areas we're discussing, 6 and phosphorus levels, have been at those levels in 7 the past, and that the process of returning to 8 whatever the hydrology is dictating, is one-- is 9 somewhat normal. 10 Q. Are you familiar with the expansion of 11 cattails in the area of 2-A, over the last 25 to 30 12 years? 13 A. I have seen the maps. I'm familiar with 14 the report of the expansion. 15 Q. Do you have any knowledge or 16 understanding of any similar expanse of cattails-- I 17 mean spacial, by expanse-- monocultures or mixed 18 stand of cattails, historically in the Everglades, 19 more than-- going back more than 30 years? 20 A. No. 21 Q. When you said that the Everglades has 22 historically had instances of phosphorus levels 23 similar to those being experienced at the present 24 time, what are you referring to? 25 A. I'm referring to the impact of fires and JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 314 1 what the soils look like after fires, in terms of 2 nutrient concentrations, in terms of phosphorus 3 concentration, specifically. 4 Q. Do you have any data to establish what 5 the phosphorus levels were during those historic 6 fire events? 7 A. Not for the historic fire events, no. 8 Q. And am I correct that these historic 9 fire events, would be somewhat localized? 10 A. I think that there would be different 11 degrees, because there are clearly different cycles 12 that are operating at different time spans. 13 There certainly are in many large 14 wetlands, like the wetlands-- the Okeefenokee-- 15 there certainly are periods of time in which there 16 are extreme dry conditions and fairly large burns, 17 typically in most of those fires, although the first 18 fire is extensive-- the peat burns, typically are 19 localized from spot to spot. 20 It's not a uniform burn that burns the 21 whole thing down X-centimeters or X-inches. 22 How large those areas would be, I don't 23 know. 24 Q. What is your understanding of the 25 current levels of phosphorus entering the Everglades JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 315 1 protection area from the EAA? 2 A. They are fairly high. 3 Q. Can you quantify that a bit closer? 4 A. I would have to put out the same 5 documents that you were to look at. 6 I have seen the Urban study, which shows 7 the loading, the total quantity of units over time 8 and over different areas, and it's substantial. 9 Q. And it's your understanding that that 10 number, whatever it is, is substantially similar to 11 what kind of phosphorus you would see in a peat 12 burn, historically? 13 A. It's my understanding that the levels 14 that are found throughout many of the high nutrient 15 stands in the soil, itself, are within the range of 16 what would be expected from a large peat fire. 17 Q. Go back for a minute on the imbalance 18 issue. 19 When you discuss exotics constituting an 20 imbalance, in your opinion, can you tell us what 21 your definition of an imbalance is? 22 A. My definition of an imbalance, are 23 substansive-- are changes that are substantive 24 enough to alter the way in which energy moves 25 through the system, or accumulated through the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 316 1 system, so something that would shift or change the 2 food chain dramatically, something that would alter 3 the way in which decaying plant matter was available 4 to detritivors, something that would be outside of 5 the normal food chain, that would be expected in the 6 Everglades. 7 The example that I will give you, is in 8 areas, for instance, that undergo on a normal cycle, 9 significant drying during the year. 10 The populations of invertebrates 11 within-- that fit that, that are feeding on the 12 detritivors, and so forth, would be of a certain 13 community. 14 If there's a period of time which water 15 level is higher, for instance, those invertebrate 16 communities would be subjected to much higher 17 predation pressures from movement of predacious 18 fishes, bass and so forth, into those areas, and 19 there would be a dramatic shift in that food chain. 20 Again, that's a fairly common thing. 21 I would not consider that an imbalance, 22 because the organisms involved in that shift are 23 still part of the natural community, itself. 24 The other extreme could also be to an 25 extreme drying, in which many of the aquatic JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 317 1 organisms in an area, might be replaced by insect 2 larvae that are not as adapted to flooding. 3 In the food chain and the manner which 4 energy is moving through that food chain, is-- do 5 not change, in terms of the norm for the Everglades, 6 somewhere, then I would consider it an imbalance by 7 some strict definition. 8 There is probably a constant imbalance 9 in any millimeter squared in the whole Everglades, 10 because things are not exactly the way they were the 11 year before, so would I look for clear changes from 12 the normal experience in the Everglades. 13 Q. Doctor Hackney, I got a little lost in 14 your answer, so let me back up a little bit. 15 Am I correct, what you-- you indicated 16 that if you dried out an area that was historically 17 wet so that your community types change from aquatic 18 communities to dryer community types, whether they 19 are fauna or macroinvertebrates or macrophytes, or 20 flora of any kind, as long as the conversion in the 21 community was a natural area in that no exotics were 22 introduced, you would not consider that an 23 imbalance? 24 A. That's correct. 25 As long as the species involved in that JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 318 1 community, are part of the natural faunal, floral 2 assemblage, I would not consider it an imbalance. 3 Q. And what type of spacial area do you use 4 to define what is the natural population for a 5 particular area? 6 A. Well, I think given the fact that the 7 Everglades, or at least a good part of the 8 Everglades, has been converted to shallow 9 reservoirs, there is, I guess, a discontinuity in 10 the Everglades today, which probably exacerbates 11 changes between these different cells, and so forth, 12 between areas like the Everglades National Park, but 13 I would submit that within the memory of the 14 Everglades, there have been fairly dramatic shifts 15 in vegetation from time to time, due to things like 16 sea level rise, sea level fall, so I would include 17 in my assemblage of the Everglades, all of the 18 natural communities that are typically used to 19 exist, from the edge of the Okeechobee, right down 20 to Florida Bay. 21 I mean, they are all part of the natural 22 assemblage. 23 A continual rise in sea level, for 24 instance, is pushing the mangrove fringes in. 25 Again, that's what you naturally expect, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 319 1 but it hasn't caused an imbalance where that's 2 occurring. 3 These are just natural species, moving 4 in response to changes in the physical environment. 5 Q. Do you make a distinction in changes 6 that occur naturally, versus those that are 7 anthropogenic, caused by anthropogenic activities? 8 A. I'm not making a distinction in this 9 case, and what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter 10 from a faunal and floral standpoint, if you go out 11 and dig out a foot of peat out of an area, or 12 whether some natural process removes that peat. 13 The plant and animals don't really 14 care. 15 Q. Again, returning to my-- as an example 16 for discussion, the northern area of 2-A, where the 17 cattails currently exist, do you believe that the 18 shift in those communities from sawgrass to cattail 19 over the 30 years, has shifted how the energy moves 20 through that system, in that particular area? 21 A. Again, confining ourselves to the 22 northern area of 2-A, excepting for the moment your 23 interpretation of that area having been occupied 24 over 30 years by cattail, I would say that there has 25 been a continuing change in how the energy has been JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 320 1 apportioned in that particular area of the 2 Everglades. 3 I recall, and in Steve Davis' 4 deposition, he talked about the fires which 5 destroyed the stands of willow in northern 2-A, 6 which was then consequently invaded by typha, 7 cattail, and I would say that that was clearly a 8 change in how the energy was apportioned. 9 It clearly changed the-- I would expect 10 it to have changed the faunal component, that peat 11 fire almost certainly lowered the water-- or the 12 elevation. 13 The willow stand, for instance, provides 14 shading, probably habitat for roosting birds, a 15 variety of other things. 16 The subsequent invasion of that burned 17 willow stand by the cattail, caused there to be a 18 change in the dominant fauna and flora, and probably 19 the microbes, so-- woody tissue definitely acts 20 differently than herbaceous tissue, so the answer is 21 yes, I do think cattails do apportion energy 22 differently than does willow. 23 Q. If I understand your answer correctly, 24 you have indicated-- well, let me just ask the 25 question. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 321 1 The change in the community from its 2 historic condition to the cattail conditions that 3 exist there presently, is it your understanding that 4 that would also-- that it has also affected the food 5 web in that particular area? 6 A. I would expect it to cause some changes 7 in the dominant species. 8 I would expect it to have changed the 9 apportionment of production as to where it's going. 10 By that, I would anticipate that there 11 was probably less energy being stored as carbon and 12 peat from the willow stand, versus the cattail 13 stands. 14 And the only variable that I-- I don't 15 feel very comfortable about discussion, is the 16 impact of the canals on that system, because 17 although deeper areas are probably natural in the 18 Everglades, most of the flow of water in the 19 Everglades was probably sheet flow, except for some 20 major sloughs, and the insertion of the canals with 21 the ground water, may have produced some subtle 22 shifts in elevation, so forth. 23 With that exception, I would say that 24 this is still part of the natural process of the 25 historic Everglades, understanding and reacting to-- JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 322 1 Q. I understand that, and again, I'm not 2 discussing any causative factors at this stage, but 3 my question is simply, is it your understanding that 4 the cattail community that exists presently in the 5 northern areas of 2-A, as distinguished from the 6 community types that existed, again, referring to 7 macrophytes principally, that existed more than 30 8 years or 40 years ago-- that that-- there has been a 9 change in the food web within that area? 10 A. You're referring to a shift from the 11 willow to the cattail? 12 Yes. I would say there probably has been 13 some shifts in the food chain, food web. 14 That would be my guess, yes, and my 15 understanding of what would normally be expected. 16 Q. Would I also be correct, you would be of 17 the view that there would be a change in the food 18 source for detritivors? 19 A. There certainly would be expected to be 20 a shift going from woody species to herbaceous 21 species, in their quality of the organic matter 22 produced, and that-- that could have-- could cause a 23 change in the base of the food chain, in terms of 24 detritivors. 25 Most of the detritivors are fairly JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 323 1 general in terms of their ability to utilize 2 detritus coming from a variety of sources. 3 I would suspect that the biggest impact 4 on that system, would probably have to be structural 5 change, going from a slightly forested type of 6 system, to a herbaceous system. 7 Q. What is your understanding of the extent 8 of the willow community that existed more than 30 9 years ago, before the cattails came in? 10 A. My understanding was that the willow 11 community was along the canal, but I haven't been 12 able to ascertain how far from a canal it extended. 13 So I do not know-- I couldn't tell you 14 accurately. I couldn't tell you how far along the 15 canal it existed. 16 I simply don't know that. 17 Q. Let me back up a little bit. 18 If you assume for purposes of my 19 question that the current area in northern 2-A which 20 contains the cattails and both monoculture and mixed 21 stands, was previously a sawgrass area, at least in 22 part, would the shift in the area from sawgrass to 23 cattail, monoculture or mixed stands, create, in 24 your view, a change in the food web? 25 A. Well, I think there would be-- there are JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 324 1 some differences in the quality of the leaves of the 2 two species. 3 There are also some differences in the 4 way in which the cones of each of those species are 5 on the surface of the marsh. 6 The data that I have, suggests that 7 there isn't a big shift in fungi or bacteria from 8 one to the other. 9 Some of the data from the Davis 10 decomposition study, show that cattails decomposed a 11 little more quickly in high nutrient areas, but some 12 of those characteristics are also connected to 13 hydrology, how much they are wet, whether they are 14 buried in the soil, so forth. 15 I would expect that there could be some 16 changes in some of the components that are likely to 17 be found there, not so much related to the quality 18 or quantity of detrital material, but related to 19 other characteristics of the habitat, that are 20 different between cattail and sawgrass, such things 21 as cover. 22 Q. Again, not based upon any particular 23 studies or research, but just from your background, 24 as a general ecologist, wetland ecologist, would you 25 expect that a change in a sawgrass community to a JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 325 1 cattail community, would lead to change in the food 2 web, as well as the food source for detritivors? 3 A. In a detrital system, as I said earlier, 4 most of the species involved in the food chain, are 5 fairly general. 6 They are very generalized, and the axiom 7 is that most animals involved in these types of food 8 chains, eat whatever is most energetically valuable 9 for them, from-- in terms of protein, and what is 10 easiest to catch. 11 I can't see a real major shift based 12 upon energetics, alone. 13 I would expect things like distance to 14 water holes, distance to canals, degree of flooding, 15 degree of detrital loading, how much material is 16 being added to peat, as being more important than 17 the quality and quantity of detritus, itself, given 18 the assumption that you provided me. 19 MR. HYDE: I understood that to be a 20 hypothetical question, correct? 21 MR. NETTLETON: It was a hypothetical 22 question, in anticipation of establishing the facts 23 at trial, obviously through our witnesses. 24 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record. 25 (Off the record discussion.) JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 326 1 THE WITNESS: I would also, just as a 2 last point related to your question-- I would expect 3 that if that situation occurred, to see a fairly 4 high variant on spacial scale. 5 BY MR. NETTLETON: 6 Q. High variant in what respect? 7 A. In components, both numbers, and 8 particularly related to the numbers of individuals 9 in the species. 10 Q. Are you talking about concerning-- are 11 you talking about variants in the species, in 12 establishing what the food web is? 13 A. Well, they are the food web. The 14 individual species are a part of the food web. 15 The reason I say that is because some 16 species, by their life habits, influence other 17 species. These aren't independent entities that are 18 placed there and don't interact. 19 An individual crayfish, for example, in 20 an individual square meter, influences what's around 21 it, without influencing the food chain, as a whole. 22 Q. And bear with me, because I think I may 23 be asking the same question again with different 24 language, but-- 25 A. Okay. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 327 1 Q. And tell me if I am. 2 Am I correct in-- or assuming, again, 3 that a sawgrass wetland community in northern 2-A 4 has changed to a cattail community-- 5 MR. HYDE: Does the question assume a 6 complete transition from a hundred percent sawgrass 7 to a hundred percent cattail, or varying degrees? 8 THE WITNESS: Would your assumption 9 include a mechanism for change? 10 MR. NETTLETON: No. Let me-- let's 11 restate my question. 12 BY MR. NETTLETON: 13 Q. Assuming a shift from a sawgrass 14 community, a dominant sawgrass community, in 15 northern 2-A, to a mixture of monoculture cattail, 16 and mixture-- a mixture between monoculture cattail, 17 and mixed stands of cattail, sawgrass, would you 18 expect from your background in wetland ecology, to 19 see a shift of how the energy moves through the 20 system? 21 MR. HYDE: Objection to the form of the 22 question, because it leaves undefined the term 23 dominant. 24 Does that mean 51 percent, or something 25 else? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 328 1 THE WITNESS: You need to define for me 2 several other variables, including the water depth. 3 Are these-- we have to-- if you give me 4 a scenario of exactly the same water depth, that 5 will give-- yield a different answer than what I 6 would expect there to be, and that would be a slight 7 difference, at least in the two stands. 8 BY MR. NETTLETON: 9 Q. All right. First answer the question 10 with regard to assuming the same water depth. 11 A. What was the question? 12 Relative to food chains? Is that-- 13 Q. No. This is the same question, whether 14 you would expect to see a shift in how the energy 15 moves through the system. 16 A. Given the same water depth? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. I would not expect there to be a 19 dramatic difference, based on what you've given me, 20 in the two communities. 21 Q. Let me change the hypothetical, to a 22 shift to a-- higher water depths, since we are 23 moving to cattails. 24 Would that change your answer? Would you 25 expect, then, to see a shift in how energy moves JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 WEST FLAGLER STEET, MIAMI, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 329 1 through the system? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Then can you tell my why you would 4 expect to see that? 5 A. I would expect there to b