121 1 2 ( NO HIATUS) . 3 Q. Dr. Hackney, can you tell me what 4 you intend to testify about at trial? 5 A. I assume that I will answer whatever 6 questions are asked of me. 7 Q. Do you have any specific areas that 8 you intend to offer conclusions about at trial? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you or would you please tell me 11 what those areas are? 12 A. I am prepared to answer questions 13 relating to fungi and bacteria as it relates to 14 decomposition. 15 I am prepared to answer questions 16 about cattail and sawgrass growth. 17 I am prepared to offer testimony 18 relating to facets that influence cattail and 19 sawgrass eliminations, sawgrass zonation. 20 I am prepared to offer opinions as 21 to how a lot of the variables relating to the 22 Everglades fit together and relate to plant and 23 and natural communities, assuming someone asked 24 me. 25 I am prepared to answer questions JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 122 1 about the hydrologic alterations relative to 2 what it could do in the general sense of things, 3 in some cases maybe specific. 4 I am prepared to offer opinions 5 relative to successional ideas. Some of the 6 thoughts are parts of others that I have given 7 you. 8 It seems that I have forgotten 9 something and I can't quite remember what I 10 didn't say. 11 Could you read my answer back. 12 (Thereupon answer was read back as 13 reported.) 14 I would say that my testimony is 15 going to likely center around my two areas that 16 I consider my primary expertise. One relates to 17 energetics wetlands systems, many of the 18 components that I have mentioned. 19 The second relates to community 20 dynamics. Again that is also included in some 21 of the details. 22 Q. So those are the two areas of 23 specific expertise, but they may encompass some 24 of the other areas that you mentioned? 25 A. Well, some of the things that I JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 123 1 mentioned earlier are contained within those, 2 and in fact I would say that is primary to what 3 I will be dealing with relative to those subject 4 areas. 5 I mean those are descriptions of 6 topics that could be extremely broad ranging. 7 But my opinions would primarily be 8 related to those areas as they relate to 9 energetics and community dynamics/ interaction, 10 and I would include in that influences of 11 disturbance for both of those as again subject 12 components. 13 Q. When you say that you are prepared 14 to answer questions related to some of these 15 specific areas, for those areas, do you have 16 opinions that you have generated regarding these 17 topics or are you just willing to answer 18 questions? 19 A. Well, both, to the best of my 20 ability. 21 Some of my answers to specific 22 questions would likely be "I don't know", and 23 some would be probably qualified by the quantity 24 of data available and others might be simply 25 speculation, if that is what was requested. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 124 1 Q. I am going to go through these and 2 ask you some more specific questions on these. 3 The first area that you intend to 4 offer conclusions to, as you said, and I am of 5 course just paraphrasing what you said, but 6 answering questions relating to fungi and 7 bacteria as it relates to decomposition. 8 Would that encompass more than what 9 is set forth in your reports, your draft reports 10 or does that primarily encompass your 11 conclusions in this area? 12 A. I think it encompasses some of the 13 data, some of background documents in terms of 14 references that I have used and so forth. 15 And that document will, to some 16 degree or the other, also attempt to put the 17 phenominum, the fine scale phenominum into a 18 bigger prospective. 19 Q. Do you have any conclusions as to 20 this fungi and bacteria as it relates to 21 decomposition? 22 Do you have any conclusions as to 23 this area that are not set forth in that report? 24 A. There are none. I will not, let me 25 say based on what I have done to now, the answer JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 125 1 is no. 2 But as I told you, I am still again 3 looking and going through those data and going 4 to be again comparing to what other people have 5 done and I envision there will be a change, it 6 could be less robust interpretation, it could be 7 more. 8 Plus there are two documents that I 9 am hoping to get to see sometime before anyone 10 is asking me this question again. 11 Q. What are those two documents? 12 A. Those two documents relate to -- I 13 am not sure that I have the names correct here, 14 the one is the Kraft Richardson dosing studies 15 in which all that I have seen is the first year. 16 I have seen the report and I have 17 seen a draft submitted publication. 18 The second would be the Newman and 19 Grace study which hopefully will be available 20 fairly soon. There may be others. 21 The two documents that I have seen 22 since you asked for my documents last week, for 23 instance, were additional information, 24 additional views, additional since they say the 25 Chapter 15 and 16 from the Everglades. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 126 1 And I would say as new information 2 becomes available, I would be constantly looking 3 at those data to see whatever they were and 4 reformulating the information that I have, plus 5 my interpretation of how other peoples data fits 6 into the patterns that I think are there. 7 Q. How much time do you anticipate 8 spending over the next several months on this 9 project? 10 A. I really couldn't tell you because I 11 do not know how much of that information is 12 going to be available and how much more is going 13 to be available. 14 I can tell you that based upon the 15 manuscript, that is one little paper that you 16 have, I am probably going to spend another 40, 17 50 hours just working with you and much of that 18 is going to be what I would say, fine scale 19 rewriting, making sure that every part of the 20 manuscript is clear and concise following the 21 general format for journals. 22 Q. How did you get a draft copy of the 23 Kraft Richardson dosing study? 24 A. Well, I haven't seen a draft copy, 25 except for the first year. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 127 1 Other than I have had a conversation 2 with I think it was Chris Kraft or it might have 3 been Curt Richardson asking them whether the 4 study was still ongoing and that's been probably 5 a year ago. 6 Q. How did you get a copy of the study 7 for the first year? 8 A. The study for the first year -- I 9 think that I have seen several different kinds. 10 One time was as an editor of the General 11 Wetlands when it was submitted for publication. 12 At that time I mean I know I saw it 13 and went through it pretty carefully and I know 14 that I also saw it in several of the 15 depositions. I think I have Mendelsohn's, 16 probably the latest one and I have probably seen 17 it maybe with the Davis documents too. 18 I just can't recall but I have seen 19 it several times. 20 Q. Was that document produced in 21 response to my notice? 22 A. I don't remember if it was the first 23 time. I don't recall it being produced the 24 second time. 25 No, I don't believe, and again I JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 128 1 would have to check with what was produced the 2 first time. 3 I don't remember if that was with my 4 documents or not. 5 Q. If there wasn't, is there any 6 particular reason why you wouldn't have produced 7 that. 8 MR. HYDE: It is a document that is 9 generally available. I don't know if it is 10 encumbent for us to produce documents that the 11 other sides has. 12 These are documents that both 13 Doctors Richardson and Kraft have talked about 14 in a lot of different forms and I have seen 15 copies of it floating around in a lot of the 16 different contexts. 17 MR. NETTLETON: It is not a question 18 of being available. It is a question of knowing 19 what he is relying on, so we would be prepared 20 to ask the questions. 21 MR. HYDE: Well, I don't know that 22 he even said that he was relying on it at this 23 point. 24 He said that he had reviewed the 25 first year on it. That is different than JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 129 1 relying on it. 2 THE WITNESS: Let me clarify this 3 conversation that you all are having. 4 I think I mentioned this document 5 because it is one that when it gets to the stage 6 in which there is a reasonable amount of 7 information, the design of study is such that it 8 should clarify some of the relationships that 9 heretofore are ambiguous, confused, et cetera 10 between hydrology and nutrients. 11 At least that would be my hope. 12 Q. Did you say that you were the editor 13 for the Journal of Wetlands? 14 A. I am an associate editor. 15 Q. How long have you been in that 16 position? 17 A. I was associate editor from 1982 18 through 1987. 19 Then from 1987 through 1990 I was 20 the technical editor. 21 Then from 1993 through present I am 22 an associate editor again. 23 Q. How does the Kraft Richardson study 24 or the Newman and Grace study relate to how 25 fungi and bacteria relate to decomposition? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 130 1 A. Well, they relate to how the plant 2 is responding to sets of conditions. I am 3 hoping that those two studies will give me some 4 understanding of how that relates with changes 5 in hydrology and changes in nutrients. 6 As I said, I also don't know what 7 other information is going to be in there. 8 What I do know is that there is 9 almost no information, experimental in nature, 10 that was developed I guess before this whole 11 litigation began that does a clear and clear job 12 of looking at those two variables. 13 I am waiting to see what those two 14 documents say about it. 15 Q. How does the Kraft Richardson study 16 do a clear comparison between the effects of 17 nutrients and hydrology? 18 A. I don't know; I haven't seen the 19 final version yet. 20 Q. What leads you to believe that it 21 would? 22 MR. HYDE: I think he said he was 23 hopeful it would. 24 A. I do not know that it will. 25 As I recall, and I do not remember JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 131 1 the details of the design, but I recall that 2 there were going to be dosing experiments in 3 which responsive cattails and sawgrass -- I lost 4 my train of thought. 5 There were going to be dosing 6 studies where cattails and sawgrass were part of 7 the experimental design. 8 As I said, I did not base my 9 testimony up to now on what has come out of that 10 study. It was just one of the documents that 11 might be extremely interesting in reformulating 12 opinions. 13 I have listed those two because 14 those are two that I am aware of. There maybe 15 others that you know about that I don't know 16 about, and if I see them, they go into the big 17 pool of data and understanding and maybe change 18 things and maybe not. 19 Q. Do you think dosing studies are 20 valuable for studying the effects of nutrient 21 systems on the ecosystem. 22 MR. HYDE: Object to the form of 23 question. It calls for speculation and doesn't 24 identify what dosing studies are? 25 A. It is a very broad question. Under JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 132 1 some constraints it can give you part of the 2 picture, a facet. 3 As I stated earlier, there have been 4 very few studies that were done in which there 5 was an attempt to weed out the components of 6 potential interests. 7 Q. What constraints? 8 A. You would have to -- I said that was 9 a very general question and one can design 10 experiments in which you set up experimental 11 conditions and attempt then to evaluate the 12 influence of those experiments, whatever the 13 experiment happens to be. 14 The experiment can be in a green 15 house, it can be in the field. 16 And each type of experiment carries 17 its own limitations and carries its own 18 advantages. 19 Q. Have you reached a final opinion 20 then relating to the issue of fungi and bacteria 21 as it relates to decomposition? 22 A. I do have an opinion now. It may 23 not be my final opinion. My opinion again may 24 change depending on what I see between now and 25 then. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 133 1 I don't believe that my data is 2 going to alter my opinion substantially one way 3 or the other. 4 Someone else could provide me with 5 the data that could. 6 Q. Is there a specific date by which 7 you have been told to have a final opinion? 8 A. No. 9 MR. HYDE: I would like to interject 10 just a moment for the record here. 11 Dr. Hackney is ready to give his 12 opinions. I think that Dr. Hackney is saying 13 something that many of the other experts in this 14 case are saying, and that is that they are not, 15 after the deposition is over, turning off their 16 brains. 17 They continue to look at things and 18 will continue to look at things for weeks to 19 come. 20 But I think that he has opinions, is 21 ready to give his testimony about what his 22 opinions will be. 23 But I don't think that he is telling 24 you that we are playing some game with you and 25 we are hiding them from you. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 134 1 The opinions are ready now. We just 2 don't -- nobody turns off their brains after the 3 deposition is over and new information becomes 4 available that could affect things. 5 But I think that is what everybody 6 has been saying. 7 MR. BARTELL: I appreciate that 8 comment. 9 MR. HYDE: I think the best thing to 10 do is ask him if he has an opinion. I think 11 that he told you that he does. 12 Why don't you ask him about it, ask 13 him the basis for it and we can take it if 14 there. Certainly if something changes between 15 now and then, we will have to address that if 16 and when it does occur. 17 But that is something that could 18 occur with any and all of our expert witnesses. 19 I don't anticipate any bold changes of direction 20 from anybody at this point. 21 Q. Just to clarify, is there any 22 specific date by by which you intend to be 23 finished? 24 A. When I'm dead. 25 Let me give you several points of JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 135 1 time which might be of interest to you. 2 As I said, I intend to have this 3 manuscript ready for peer review at the end of 4 March sometime. 5 At that point in time, I think it 6 will reflect my best understanding of this 7 particular facet of what you are interested in. 8 There are other facets that relate to it which 9 are probably more than the big picture that we 10 have been discussing that I suspect are going to 11 continue to develop and change as I see more 12 information. 13 I have not, for instance, seen the 14 now Duke report. I presume there is one coming 15 sometime. There has been an annual report for 16 sometime. I haven't seen that at all and I have 17 no idea what could be in it. 18 There may be documents in it that 19 various agencies are producing which could 20 influence my overall view of things and how I 21 interpret them. But I don't know when they will 22 be. 23 I am constantly looking at documents 24 any time anyone sends them to me. Feel free to 25 send me documents if you wish. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 136 1 Q. Do you intend to write any reports 2 or put any other opinions onto paper other than 3 the one draft report pertaining to the fungi 4 bacteria as it relates to decomposition? 5 A. Not relative to the Everglades. 6 Q. Relative to this case? 7 A. That is the only document that I 8 anticipate delevoping relative to fungi and 9 bacteria. 10 Q. Do you intend to generate or draft 11 any other documents pertaining to any of these 12 other approximately six to eight areas that you 13 mentioned that you would be prepared to offer 14 opinions at trial? 15 A. No, I have not been asked to produce 16 any such except these. 17 Q. You indicated another area that you 18 would be offering your conclusions or opinions 19 or questions relating to cattail and sawgrass 20 growth. 21 Can you tell me more specifically 22 what conclusions and opinions that you would 23 offer with regard to this area? 24 A. I would say they would probably 25 relate to the variables that influence JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 137 1 combinations of one or the other. 2 Q. Variables such as what? 3 A. Such as hydrology, nutrient loading, 4 however you want to look at that, potential 5 competition. 6 Q. With regard to the nutrient loading, 7 what is your opinion regarding nutrient loading 8 as it relates to cattail and sawgrass growth? 9 A. My opinion is that it is 10 inextricably connected to hydrology and my 11 opinion is that the data connecting growth of 12 cattails and sawgrass to phosphorous is very 13 confusing in terms of the direct relationship 14 that I would have anticipated. 15 Q. What would you have anticipated? 16 A. I think that as a working 17 hypothosis, I would have anticipated that there 18 would have been more direct relationships 19 between let's say soil phosphorous and cattail 20 growth in some of the studies that have been 21 done than were shown. 22 The Urban study, for instance, I 23 thought was provided in an anonmoulous data set 24 in that I really expected there to be, just 25 looking at the design and how it was carried JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 138 1 out, I really would have anticipated their 2 statistical procedures and analysis to have 3 addressed the relationship of cattail production 4 and Sawgrass production to soil phosphorous and 5 phosphorous in the water, for instance, and it 6 didn't as well as I might have suspected. 7 As I said, that is one of the 8 reasons that I am very interested in waiting to 9 see some of the experimental work because that 10 is what it is designed to do. 11 Q. Do you have evidence of any direct 12 relationship between hydrology and cattail 13 and/or sawgrass dominance? 14 A. There are several facets of evidence 15 that I would probably use. 16 One comes from the Urban paper and I 17 can't recall the draft of this. There was one 18 draft for instance where the reviewers -- this 19 was a reviewed draft-- I shouldn't say 20 reviewers, I am not sure who wrote this, it says 21 the only statistical relationship they could 22 find was due to hydrology. 23 The final manuscript which was 24 published independent, used phosphorous loading 25 as the only variable that had a relationship to JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 139 1 cattail sawgrass growth. 2 And the way that variable is 3 generated could very well be a hydrologic -- 4 could have a hydrologic characteristic. I 5 couldn't use that alone, but it was an 6 interesting side line. 7 I would also say that my 8 observations having been out in the Everglades, 9 walked around in waders is they were just about 10 to flood in the winter time, leading me to 11 conclude that within small scale variation, that 12 for a large portion, or the time the cattail 13 would be in water, that was 10, 15, 20 14 centimeters deep where they were existing in 15 solid stands. 16 And in areas in which I would see 17 cattail growing, even in background cites, the 18 water level tended to be somewhat higher. 19 Again that is not a big surprise to 20 anyone I think. 21 I will stop there. I am sure there 22 is possibly something else. 23 Q. The question is what evidence of 24 direct relationship between hydrology and 25 cattail or sawgrass dominance and you mentioned JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 140 1 there were several facets of evidence, one of 2 which was this Urban paper, one of which was 3 your time spent in the Everglades. 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Is there any other examples? 6 A. Yes. I think in some of the areas 7 where there had been some burns and there were 8 alligator holes, I guess I am not sure whether 9 that is a proper term in these cases, but where 10 there was depression, where the water was 11 deeper, the cattails were clearly dominant and 12 under on the edges, sawgrass was clearly 13 dominant. 14 Q. This was from your own observations? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Were these areas that you personally 17 made observations in the Everglades near canals 18 or other sources of nutrients loading or let's 19 say man's activities as opposed to way off in 20 the wilderness. 21 Could you sort of describe where the 22 different areas are? 23 A. I would say they would be all of the 24 above, clearly any disturbed areas, cattails are 25 a major component of the community and disturbed JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 141 1 in this case is referring to canals for 2 instance, areas where there had been fires. 3 Q. What other kind of disturbances 4 could there be up there? 5 A. Those are the two that I can think 6 of right now. 7 There were also some cites that were 8 close to levees on the side of a levee, I guess 9 that would be 2-B for instance, where there was 10 not a canal, but the proximity of a levee was 11 such that I would guess there probably would 12 have been some disturbance while the levee was 13 constructed near some of gates for instance on 14 some islands or what had apparently been tree 15 islands at one time. 16 Q. Doctor, going back to the question, 17 were any of these places far from any of these 18 structures or canals? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Can you tell me where some of these 21 other locations were where you made these type 22 of observations? 23 A. There were some in Loxahatchee. 24 Q. Can you be more specific and I don't 25 mean latitude; I mean interior along the edges? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 142 1 A. There were some on what I believe 2 were transectionals A and B, the Loxahatchee 3 entry. 4 These were-- oh, I'm sorry, they 5 are not shown on this figure. 6 Q. The figure that you are refering to 7 is where? 8 A. Is figure one. In that document I 9 had included a number of transections on the 10 Loxahatchee and some were ergosterol data. 11 And there is none in these in what 12 we would be considering as far as the background 13 transectionals as far as the Loxahatchee. 14 So there were some there. There 15 were some in areas that are in the lower part of 16 2-A that were far away from the entrance of-- 17 the phosphorous entrance of 2-A. 18 Q. Were they far away from the 19 perimeters of 2-A? 20 A. They were not in the center of 2-A. 21 They were reasonably close to the canal. 22 I don't know what that means, but 23 they were definitely influenced by water that 24 came off the canal versus water flowing across 25 2-A. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 143 1 Q. How many days did you spend in the 2 Everglades actually in the field? 3 A. You are asking me to real time 4 again. Let me think. 5 I think as part of this project, 6 these studies, I guess, probably about five 7 individual trips with multiple days plus an 8 aerial survey at another time a little bit 9 farther of the Everglades. 10 In terms of total number of days, 11 probably average maybe thirty-five days per 12 trip, something like that. 13 Q. What times of the year? 14 A. I was there in August. I was there 15 I guess at the end of the summer, through the 16 fall and I know I was there in the winter time. 17 I remember that clearly. 18 I think that probably my trips down 19 there. I think the last time that I was there 20 as part of this was in March, early March. 21 Q. Over how many years did these visits 22 span? 23 A. For this projects. It has been 24 since August of '92. 25 Q. Do you intend to offer any opinions JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 144 1 relating to cattail growth vis-a-vis any other 2 species in the Everglades such as elio ocrus? 3 A. No. Elio ocrus the word and the 4 answer is not specific, other than in a generic 5 sense of community dynamics. 6 Q. Other than those different variables 7 that go into cattails and sawgrass growth, this 8 is still within the second area of testimony 9 that you maybe giving opinions on, is there 10 anything else that you might add that you might 11 be offering opinions about? 12 A. Let me make sure that you are clear 13 that these two are not totally separate areas. 14 Microbials of the soil affects whether or not 15 some nutrients are available to the plants for 16 growth. 17 So these two or disparite entities 18 are connected. They are also probably related 19 to the imbalance issue. 20 Q. Is there or can you just summarize 21 your conclusions regarding the imbalance issue? 22 A. There is an imbalance-- in my 23 opinion there is an imbalance in the Everglades 24 ecosystem which is occurring now and is going to 25 continue to occur. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 145 1 Q. What is that imbalance? 2 A. That imbalance is caused by invasion 3 of exotic species. 4 Q. What is causing exotic species to 5 invade the Everglades? 6 A. Their introduction would be the 7 first answer, meaning they obviously weren't 8 there before they were introduced. 9 Q. So you think any species that 10 migrates the Everglades without man having 11 introduced them? 12 A. Let me kind of finish that line of 13 thought. 14 In most cases introduction of exotic 15 species are not successful in terms of their 16 establishment. 17 What frequently is involved with 18 their establishment is disturbance, big scale, 19 small scale, but some facet of disturbance is 20 always important in the success of exotics. 21 Q. Okay. Then returning back to my 22 last question, do you feel any of these species 23 have migrated the Everglades without man's 24 involvement? 25 A. Of the ones that I am thinking about JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 146 1 in terms of the ones that could have an impact, 2 they were brought to this area by people. 3 Q. What species are we talking about 4 that caused an imbalance? 5 A. I think the Maleluka is clearly one. 6 I think the potential for exotic fish species is 7 a second and perhaps even exotic birds. 8 Q. Do you think the Maleluka needs a 9 disturbance to become established in the 10 Everglades? 11 A. I think that the Maleluka probably 12 could go anywhere it damn well pleases, but I 13 think that its movement is probably enhanced by 14 disturbance, it spreads. 15 The second facet of introduction in 16 the Everglades is the fact that this is a 17 subtropical system which has been inhabited by 18 predominantly temperate species, particularly 19 fish and larger animals. 20 So there could be pretty good 21 theoretical arguments to be made for the fact 22 that some tropical species, if introduced, could 23 displace the temperate counter parts, even 24 without a huge amount of disturbance. 25 The disturbance could probably be JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 147 1 most important but there would be some areas 2 that wouldn't be absolutely totally necessary. 3 Q. The third area that you talked about 4 was zonation. 5 Could you describe what conclusions 6 or opinions that you would offer regarding the 7 zonation of cattail and sawgrass? 8 A. My opinions regarding zonation are 9 that relatively small changes in physical 10 variables, and I would include hydrology and 11 nutrients, water quality, and when I say water 12 quality, I am not just talking about nutrients, 13 I am also including in that changes in salts, 14 for instance, increases in sodium chlorides, 15 small changes in those variables working 16 independently and synergisticly, can lead to a 17 variety of different communities in a relatively 18 small landscape. 19 Q. Is that the conclusion that you 20 would be offering those for your opinion? 21 It seems to me that you have just 22 described what zonation is, but do you have any 23 opinion as to what that means as far as the 24 Everglades in this case? 25 A. My opinion would be that within JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 148 1 certain ranges for all those variables, the 2 common types would be expected to persist 3 without disturbance. 4 With disturbance, one could predict 5 maybe fairly rapid replacements of one zone by 6 another. 7 Q. What are those ranges? 8 A. I don't know. I know that within 9 for instance 15 centimeters of variations in 10 flooding, that you can find six clear vegetative 11 zones that are within a very small hydrologic 12 change, understanding that there are other 13 physical variables that are influencing which 14 zone given species or group of species occupies. 15 Q. You are saying with no other changes 16 to any other parameters of the environmental 17 disturbance? 18 A. I thought you asked me that before, 19 is it a disturbance. 20 It is one of the physical variables 21 that could influence the zonation or where a 22 species might be found. 23 Q. So it is a variable that could lead 24 to a disturbance? 25 A. If for instance a plant grows faster JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 149 1 and grows better in a particular cite and it has 2 more energy available, then what that allows a 3 plant to do is to expand some of that additional 4 energy getting additional nutrients, getting 5 more oxygen to its roots and so forth. 6 So with the influence of a nutrient, 7 that system could allow a species to move 8 slightly one way or the other in its natural 9 zone were it to get the opportunity. 10 Q. But you wouldn't characterize it in 11 and of itself as a disturbance? 12 A. I am using disturbance and I think I 13 now understand why you keep coming to this 14 disturbance and I keep having a hard time 15 understanding what you are dealing with. 16 Because in ecological succession we 17 separate influences in the environment into two 18 really categories. 19 One, we talk about a limitation 20 which primarily deals with soils and nutrients. 21 And the second is we talk about 22 succession that is influenced by disturbance 23 such as fire and wind and so forth that are not 24 related to soils. 25 Soils and the water that are moving JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 150 1 over systems tends to be in separate categories 2 from those that are dealt with in more 3 disturbances. 4 Again you see how I am separating 5 the two, and the influence of adding fertilizers 6 to an area, for instance, is not going to have 7 the same effect. 8 Q. The fourth subject category, 9 whatever it is that you said that you maybe 10 offering opinions or conclusions regarding, 11 talks about how variables relating to plants and 12 animal communities fit together in the 13 Everglades. 14 Again I may not be stating that 15 exactly as you phrased it. 16 Can you explain what opinions or 17 conclusion that you would offer regarding this 18 area? 19 A. Well, I think what I would offer is 20 the fact that with the body of information, the 21 technical information that is available, there 22 are a number of hypothoses that can explain the 23 zonation that we see. 24 There are multiple variants that 25 could influence zonation and that the available JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 151 1 signs has not conclusively separated any of them 2 out as evidence that I would suggest that if you 3 were to do a corrolation of cattail abundance 4 and sodium chloride in the water salt, you would 5 find a very high corrolation in northern 2-A. 6 You also can find probably pretty 7 good corrolations between distance from the 8 canals and cattail density. 9 What I am saying is that the data 10 that we have available to us now that I have had 11 available, and I presume you have the same 12 mostly the same data set, are not conclusive 13 enough to separate many of the variables that 14 are normally a part of what dries a wetland 15 community in terms of zonation. 16 The difficulty of what we are doing 17 is that we are trying to come up with generic 18 understandings of what is a fairly large system 19 which is different across many of the areas that 20 we are really discussing. 21 Many of the papers that I have read 22 have attempted to ignore one of the basic, the 23 basic premise by which we understand wetland 24 functions and that is that there are three 25 important things in determining wetlands JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 152 1 functions and species composition. 2 Those things are hydrology, 3 hydrology and hydrology. In other words, 4 hydrology and the geology of an area are the two 5 components that typically one looks at first. 6 Secondarily, one looks at salinity 7 of the soil or water or nutrients available and 8 they typically are important, but the ability of 9 the plant to use nutrients is heavily influenced 10 by how much water it is flooded by, how long the 11 soil stays anaerobic. 12 Q. All those things are interconnected? 13 A. I guess if there is a theme to what 14 I am saying is that there are multiple 15 variables, each of which would be expected to be 16 important, but almost all of them are tied into 17 hydrology in some way. 18 And I don't see a body of 19 information available to lead me to an absolute 20 certain conclusion as to what is doing it. 21 Q. You mentioned these corrolations of 22 cattail and salt, distance from canals and 23 cattails. 24 Would you expect to see a 25 corrolation between the level of phosohorous and JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 153 1 levels of phosphorous in the water? 2 A. I did, and that is why I am 3 surprised that the Nancy Urban study didn't show 4 that. 5 I am still amazed everytime I think 6 of it. That is the kind of thing that I am 7 sort of hoping the dosing study would shed some 8 light on. 9 Q. You also mentioned that you might 10 expect to answer questions on hydrologic 11 alterations relative to what it could do in a 12 general sense. Could you explain what your 13 conclusions or opinions would be on this 14 subject? 15 A. Okay. Increasing flooding type of a 16 wetland soil for instance, influences the length 17 of time that the soil is anaerobic which can 18 have a great deal to do with nutrients 19 undertaken by plants. 20 It could have a great deal to do 21 with germination of seedlings, survival of the 22 plant itself. 23 Hydrology is an extremely important 24 variable in all facets of wetlands plants, and 25 when I say hydrology, I am including-- I am JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 154 1 using that term in the very broadest sense to 2 include not just length of flooding, but 3 duration of flooding, how long in years is it 4 flooded, and I would even expand it more to 5 include the larger cycles that exist in all the 6 wetlands. 7 In other words, not just the day 8 night cycle but the long term cycles that exist 9 in the Everglades and in many other systems of 10 decades of years. 11 Q. Lastly you mentioned that you may 12 have opinions relative to successional ideas-- I 13 am having trouble with my handwriting. 14 Can you expand upon what this last 15 area is that you mentioned? 16 A. The term that I was looking for 17 earlier was disclimax from disturbances like 18 hurricanes versus a climax in the biotic sense 19 as a community that persists indefinitely given 20 no change in the basic environmental parameters. 21 It is considered a steady state that is 22 reached in community. 23 Climaxes are an important community 24 type because it can represent the end point of 25 community change. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 155 1 Most areas, when they are first 2 vegetated before there is any soil or anything, 3 will go through a series of communities, 4 ultimately ending in a stable community that is 5 self maintained, persistent over long periods of 6 time to climax. 7 Succession in the biotics of 8 succession as we understand it, is a sequential 9 movement towards a climax community. 10 In wetlands, however, there is 11 tremendous debate as to whether the biotics 12 succession phenominum really does occur. 13 Our understanding of wetlands, and 14 this is generic including the Everglades, our 15 understanding is that wetlands will move towards 16 a steady state or a balance with respect to 17 their position relative to flooding, and that 18 position is maintained by the loss of organic 19 matter from the soil when it dries during parts 20 of the year, mineralization I think is the best 21 term, and the accumulation rate of organics. 22 So when systems reach a steady state 23 over long periods of time, what you basically 24 have is the accumulation sediments or pieces or 25 whatever we are talking about reaching zero. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 156 1 The communities that are existing in 2 that steady state are fairly stable persisting 3 long periods of times. 4 When you alter the steady state and 5 that alteration can be purely natural, it can be 6 human induced, there are lots of things that can 7 cause it; you could, for instance, increase the 8 water level or decrease the water level, then 9 what basically happens is that the potential for 10 a shift of the community, doesn't mean it is 11 going to happen. 12 It can mean that it can happen, 13 frequently climaxed communities will persist 14 even after there have been some fairly major 15 environmental changes, increased flooding, 16 increased or decreased nutrients, just about 17 anything that I would want to add to that, these 18 communities will persist in some form or 19 fashion. 20 I have seen them persist for 30 or 21 40 years after dramatic alterations with very 22 little change and then frequently either the 23 change becomes so great that the plants simply 24 cannot survive or something else happens to 25 disturb them, fire, hurricane, a freeze, almost JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 157 1 anything that would impact plants already 2 stressed. 3 Then there is effectively a dramatic 4 community shift, sometimes a little farther over 5 a few years going from one dominant community 6 type to another. 7 This is basically what is referred 8 to as a Gleasonian approach to succession in 9 that it is the environmental conditions that are 10 determining what species of plants are there or 11 not, but there is no organized sequence of 12 things that will follow one another. 13 Q. Do you think that is applicable to 14 the Everglades? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. You said in the wetlands there is a 17 debate on whether this sequential moment occurs. 18 What is your opinion? 19 A. I think that for some situations 20 there is clearly some successional development 21 that occurs and that is probably in wetlands 22 that is becoming newly extracted in which 23 hurricanes leaves a sand bar, a sand bar where 24 there was none before. 25 It probably occurred in many kinds JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 158 1 of new habitats. 2 However, once there is some steady 3 state in the physical structure of the 4 environment, what seems to be the case is the 5 species that gets there first and can grow under 6 that set of conditions, then persist for fairly 7 long periods of times until something comes 8 along to disturb them. 9 Then there can be a change and that 10 could be natural or hyper-energetic. 11 Q. From looking at your CV it appears 12 that you have done a lot of work in costal 13 wetlands. 14 Would you describe what work you 15 have done in fresh water wetland areas? 16 A. Many of the wetlands that I work in 17 are wetlands that are transitions from fresh 18 water to saline wetlands. 19 Much of my work now is what we refer 20 to as oligohaline, very low salinity, or would 21 be in costal plane wetlands which would include 22 coastlines. 23 Q. Would you characterize the 24 Everglades as Oligohaline? 25 A. Parts of it. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 159 1 Q. How about the area around the water 2 conservation areas? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Would you consider those fresh water 5 wetlands? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Would you tell me of any other 8 research that you have done on fresh water 9 wetlands that are not Oligohaline or coastal or 10 influenced by salt water merging with fresh 11 water? 12 A. I have worked in the sub-borrial 13 forests pete system in Wisconsin, those are pete 14 based. 15 I have worked in the wetlands in 16 Illinois, both isolated, what are called I think 17 intermediate primary wetlands and wetlands 18 associated with extreme drainages, riparian type 19 of wetlands. 20 I have worked in wetlands in upstate 21 New York which had colonized former primarily 22 glavca. 23 I have worked in pete based Atlantic 24 white sea wetlands in New Jersey. 25 I have worked in fresh water swamps JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 160 1 in Louisiana. I have worked two different kinds 2 in Louisiana, one was the bottom hard wood swamp 3 in northwestern Louisiana. 4 Another was a lowland wetland swamp 5 in southern Louisiana. 6 I worked in -- now some of these it 7 depends on your definition of costal, I have 8 worked in fresh water marshes in Louisiana. 9 I have worked in swamps in the upper 10 Mobile basin. 11 I have worked on the outer coastal 12 peninsula of North Carolina. 13 I have worked on wetlands on Barrier 14 Islands. Do you want me to keep going? 15 Q. How do you define a wetland? 16 MR. HYDE: Ask the Corps of 17 Engineers. 18 A. I would define a wetland as a system 19 whose soil characteristics are heavily 20 influenced by the presence of water for a long 21 enough periods of time to cause anaerobic 22 metabolism in the soil. 23 Q. Have you ever worked with cattails 24 in fresh water? 25 A. Yes. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 161 1 Q. Where was that? 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Is this going to be an extensive 4 list? 5 A. It is, and the reason is that 6 cattails are an important component in many 7 wetlands ecosystems, especially those that have 8 had disturbances of some type. 9 It frequently is an early invader 10 into disturbed wetlands, sometimes invading 11 farming needs, for instance, in the bottoms of 12 the furrows. 13 It is also a fairly important 14 component in tidal wetlands where it is 15 important along the upper land wetland fringe. 16 The wetland that I remember 17 extremely well that was dominated by that type 18 was in Upstate New York which was the dominant 19 species. 20 It is frequently in drained 21 wetland. It is frequently a component of the 22 drainage ditches on the edges of canals in 23 places where they throw spoiled material. 24 The Corp of Engineers no longer 25 calls it spoil. It is dredge material and often JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 162 1 it is an important species of those disturbed 2 areas. 3 I am saying disturbed, but there are 4 many situations in which Cattails are a very 5 normal part, another sequence of species that 6 occupies a wetland, particularly after a 7 disturbance. 8 And their role often is one in which 9 they invade disturbed cites, they create large 10 quantities of the biomass, they are highly 11 productive, these can be highly productive. 12 They are capable of producing lots 13 of biomass and very quickly regenerating holes 14 and if you want to think of any day a 15 disturbance like a fire in which it burns out a 16 piece of pete and leaves a deeper area, 17 Cattails are frequently the species that end up 18 in deeper areas like that. 19 And the later role in the sequence 20 of things is to accumulate organic material 21 which they can do fairly rapidly. 22 And in doing so bringing the 23 community back into balance, if you want to 24 think of it that way, getting the depositional 25 environment to where deposition minus oxydation JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 163 1 or mineralization are equal to zero. 2 They are important in that role. 3 Q. So cattails can help bring a system 4 into balance? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Even if they are not native? 7 A. Most wetland ecosystems are driven 8 by what happens with mineral accumulation or 9 organic accumulation, pete sediment, again 10 related towards hydrology. 11 Q. Have you found evidence of a hybrid 12 species of cattails in any of these wetlands? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In fresh waser? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where was that? 17 A. In New York. 18 Q. How do you know it was a hybrid 19 species? 20 A. It is a documented hybrid, I think 21 Florida glavca is a hybrid between two species, 22 I don't remember which ones, but between two 23 species. 24 Q. In your opinion has there been an 25 increase of cattails in the Everglades over the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 164 1 last 20 years? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What would you attribute that to? 4 A. I would attribute it to a number of 5 factors. 6 The first I would attribute it to 7 and maybe I shouldn't put these in orders, the 8 two important ones in my opinion are 9 disturbances in hydrology and you may have 10 somewhat of a difficult time separating those 11 two because they are clearly related. 12 The effect of drying the Everglades 13 for some period of time, that absolutely had to 14 influence the loss of organic material from the 15 surface of the Everglades. 16 The natural zonation alone would 17 remove a fair bit of that and you could see what 18 was in some of the EAA area where it has been 19 drained and you can see the lost organics. 20 Fires, of course, can have very 21 quick removal of organics, especially lowering 22 the surface of the marsh or the swamp or 23 whatever. 24 Effectively what is going on is that 25 the ecosystem is attempting to come into balance JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 165 1 with its hydrological regiment that has been 2 imposed on it. 3 There are periods of time for many 4 areas that there was a lower water table. 5 Following that, there was an 6 increase in water in which the system is going 7 to again attempt to come to equilibrium. So 8 that is a disturbance. 9 The fire is a disturbance and again 10 how you interpret a disturbance can vary, but 11 the levees themselves, by backing water up at 12 particular places, has almost certainly caused 13 there to be an alteration of hydrology and other 14 things too, including nutrients. 15 Q. In your opinion will disturbances 16 always lead to an increase in available 17 phosphorous? 18 A. Not all kinds of disturbances. 19 Q. What types wouldn't? 20 A. A hurricane for instance that 21 destroyed many of the islands for instance which 22 blew all the trees over, maybe produced higher 23 water tables, that might not lead to any 24 increases in nutrients. 25 Increases in water levels, for JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 166 1 instance, over long periods of time would 2 probably tend to remove nutrients from the 3 system. 4 They would certainly remove nitrogen 5 through the process of denitrofication. 6 They could very well remove other 7 types of nutrients that would be precipitated 8 out or included in the organic material that is 9 burried, all dead plant material, pete and so 10 forth contain nutrients. 11 So the act of production of pete 12 removes nutrients -- removes available nutrients 13 from the system to one degree or the another and 14 the nutrients vary a lot depending on their 15 sizes also. 16 Q. With regard to disturbances that do 17 cause an increase in phosphorous--, let me 18 restate that. 19 The disturbances that are currently 20 ongoing in the water conservation areas, are 21 they causing an increase in phosphorous? 22 A. That are currently going on. 23 The disturbance ending up in WCA2A I 24 would say no. 25 What is actually going on in that JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 167 1 cite itself, I would say that the plant responds 2 to disturbance is in fact removing phosphorous. 3 Q. So would you expect over time for 4 levels of phosphorous to decrease in water 5 conservation area 2-A if present conditions 6 remained unchanged. 7 MR. HYDE: Object to the form of the 8 question, increase why, where? The water and or 9 in the soil. 10 MR. BARTELL: Let's start with in 11 the water. 12 A. If we are just talking about 2-A and 13 we are talking about an isolated system in which 14 the inputs and outputs are rain fall-- . 15 Q. I am talking about if present 16 conditions remain unchanged as far as how 17 hydrology of water conservation area 2-A 18 currently exists, would you expect over time, 19 over the near future or over a long-term for 20 phosphorous levels to start decreasing? 21 A. Phosphorous where? 22 Q. In the water. 23 MR. HYDE: Just for clarification, 24 is this assuming the same limit of hypergenetic 25 source that maybe continuing into those areas? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 168 1 MR. BARTELL: Yes. 2 MR. HYDE: And natural ones such as 3 from the atmospheric composition. 4 MR. NETTLETON: Say everything being 5 the same? 6 A. I am not sure what the same means. 7 Given the continued movement of phosphorous into 8 the system, into WCA2A, what is anticipated, the 9 big picture is that the system will continue to 10 accumulate phosphorous. 11 It is going to accumulate that 12 phosphorous in the soil as part of the pete and 13 as individual minerals probably does deposit 14 within the pete and that accumulation is going 15 to occur until the system reaches an equilibrium 16 with the hydrology. 17 When that occurs, then the system 18 will stop storing phosphorous and basically pass 19 the phosphorous through. 20 Q. While it is in this process of 21 storing it until it reaches its equilibrium, is 22 phosphorous increasing or decreasing? 23 A. Where? 24 Q. We are still in the water. 25 A. I think the water phosphorous JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 169 1 concentration in the water right now is highly 2 variable spacially. 3 I mean clearly phosphorous gets 4 removed from the water through a whole variety 5 of means. I would anticipate that one would 6 continue to have a gradient just as one does 7 right now. 8 Q. What do you mean by hydrologic 9 equilibrium? 10 A. When the accumulation of organic 11 material reaches the point where accumulation 12 minus oxydation equals zero, there is no net 13 increase in pete. 14 At that point in time, assuming 15 everything else stays the same, the rain fall 16 pattern stays the same, the amount of water 17 going in there stays the same, at that point in 18 time, then the net loading of the pete is going 19 to cease. 20 Q. With regard to these questions that 21 I have just asked you, I limited that to the 22 phosphorous levels in the water. 23 How would your answers change 24 regarding phosphorous levels in the soil? 25 A. That is clearly the location of JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 170 1 phosphorous in terms of its storage. That is 2 clearly where it is going to be stored. 3 Q. So is it currently increasing from 4 today until next week, is phosphorous levels in 5 the soil increasing or decreasing in 2-A? 6 A. Well, big picture, just generically 7 it is going to be increasing. 8 Q. We went through when I asked you 9 what areas that you anticipated testifying at 10 trial and you listed six areas. 11 Then you said you would be focusing 12 on two areas of specialty, energetics wetlands 13 system, what do you mean by that? 14 A. Energetics is the manner through 15 which energy moves through the tropic levels of 16 an ecosystem. 17 Q. Can you explain to the people what 18 that means? 19 A. When a plant captures sunlight, it 20 basically takes the energy that is in that 21 photon of light energy and it transfers it to a 22 chemical form. 23 The total quantities of energy 24 captured in an ecosystem dictates basically how 25 the ecosystem functions, what kinds of JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 171 1 organisims they are going to be in that 2 ecosystem, how big they are, how stable 3 populations are, et cetera. 4 The energetics is basically looking 5 at those combinations between tropic levels, 6 between species. 7 Clear enough? 8 Q. That helps. Do you consider 9 yourself an expert in this area? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You also mentioned community 12 dynamics slash interaction. 13 Is that stuff that we have already 14 discussed or is this something more? I 15 understand that there are some overlapping among 16 these areas? 17 A. Yes, there are. 18 Q. Is there anything specifically you 19 can add to the conclusions that you may have 20 regarding community dynamics or interaction? 21 A. I think that we have discussed many 22 of the facets. 23 Our discussion of succession and how 24 individual communities respond to the 25 environmental attributes of a typical cite, I JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 172 1 would include that in community dynamics, how a 2 species influences other species and that can be 3 in terms of competition, it can be in terms of 4 grazing, gradiation. 5 I would include all of those facets 6 under that umbrella. 7 Again many of those we have already 8 explored to some degree. 9 Q. My understanding or based on going 10 through these questions with you, it seems that 11 I have covered or you have explained to me all 12 the areas that you anticipate giving testimony 13 about or any conclusions that you have to date 14 which may come up in this case. 15 Is there anything else that you 16 might add that you think that you might be 17 offering opinions about or conclusions on at 18 trial? 19 A. Well, I think that some of the 20 central issues of imbalance are included in the 21 energetics as I would discuss it and I think 22 those are the only details that we probably 23 haven't explored very thoroughly that I can 24 think of. 25 Q. This is the central issue of JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 173 1 imbalance within the energetics. That wasn't 2 the question that I asked. Could you explain to 3 me what you mean? 4 A. Well, shifts in energy availability 5 or quantity and quality can effect the types of 6 species that are going to be supported in that 7 community. 8 For instance, shifting from an 9 aqueous environment like the more flooded 10 prairie situation to a less flooded situation, 11 would and could change the species that are 12 likely to be using the energy produced by the 13 plants. 14 Q. What are other examples of shifts 15 that you would calls shifts in energy available 16 besides for instance water levels? 17 A. Well, the removal of large 18 quantities of energy from the available energy 19 pool through pete deposition for instance. 20 The replacement of a species of a 21 primary procedure by another one that was more 22 or less palatable and those are the kinds of 23 things that could professionally lead to changes 24 in species composition. 25 What I would sort of say about that JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 174 1 is again, what you are really looking at depends 2 a lot on scale. 3 If you took any meters squared in 4 just about any ecosystem, you could probably 5 find shifts in the species that are there over 6 some time scale due to purely natural things or 7 due to other things going on. 8 So from a standpoint of species 9 shift, I think you have to look at the whole 10 system. 11 You can't isolate one square meter 12 of cattail or sawgrass and say that's what is 13 going on and, therefore, there is an imbalance. 14 So one has to look at the entire 15 system and see if the system has changed. 16 The example for the Everglades that 17 I will give you, which is a clear example, is a 18 shift from orbaceous species in parts of the 19 Everglades to woody species occupying the same 20 facilities of a hydrologic regimen. 21 Q. What do you think is causing that? 22 A. A change in primary producers from 23 sawgrass, Typha and all the other species that 24 we have discussed, the Maleluka for instance. 25 That clearly is a significant change JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 175 1 in the way in which energy is moving through the 2 system. 3 MR. BARTELL: Let's take a little 4 recess. 5 (Recess taken.) 6 Q. I ask you to please mark this as 7 Exhibit 3. 8 ( Thereupon exhibit 3 was marked for 9 identification). 10 MR. BARTELL: Let the record reflect 11 that we have just had exhibit number three or an 12 exhibit marked as exhibit number three which is 13 Dr. Hackney's draft report and Dr. Hackney is 14 going to make a statement regarding this 15 exhibit. 16 THE WITNESS: For the record, this 17 is a partial draft of a document that will have 18 this title and was not ready for distribution. 19 BY MR. BARTELL: 20 Q. Dr. Hackney I am showing you what 21 has been marked as exhibit number three. 22 Would you please identify this 23 document to the extent that we have not 24 already. 25 A. Why that is the document that was JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 176 1 provided to you per your duces tecum. 2 Q. Is this the first draft of this 3 document? 4 A. It would depends on what you call a 5 draft. 6 I think right now my computer shows 7 that there has been 30 some drafts, but each 8 time someone walks into my office or at some 9 point in time where I stop and I save it, that 10 constitutes a computer draft. 11 That doesn't constitute what I call 12 a draft. 13 I would say this is a preliminary 14 draft. 15 Q. Is this the latest draft? 16 A. I am sure-- I know there are several 17 updates on the computer of this since this was 18 sent, probably at least one or two a day. 19 Q. Are any of those significant 20 changes? 21 A. I am not sure what the word 22 significant--- none of them change any of the 23 points of the documents, but some of the points 24 are not completed in this document. 25 So those changes are going towards JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 177 1 completing some of those ideas, some of which 2 are totally undeveloped in this. 3 Q. As we going through this document 4 and we aren't going to be going through it word 5 by words, would you please if you see an area 6 that has some changes, indentify them. 7 I would like to ask you to turn to 8 Page 3. I don't see a Page 2 to the document. 9 A. There should be a Page 2. There 10 should be because there is an abstract somewhere 11 for this. There is an abstract of Page 2 that 12 was provided. 13 I think there is an abstract on the 14 document that now exists that was on that 15 document. 16 But I would also tell you that I had 17 a nightmare getting that off the computer and it 18 was a matter of it coming off the computer, 19 putting that paper clip on there with that note 20 that you all notice and shipping it to you all. 21 I did not review that document when 22 it came off the computer so I could not swear 23 there was an abstract with it. 24 Q. According to the Bate Stamp there is 25 not a missing page so it seems from what I have JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 178 1 now is how it was provided to us. 2 Nonetheless could I ask that this 3 second page be provided to us? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. HYDE: No problem. 6 Q. Referring or I would like to ask you 7 to refer to Page 3. 8 In the first paragraph about halfway 9 through this first paragraph there is a sentence 10 that starts " when water levels in wetlands are 11 higher -- I will just read the sentence,"When 12 water levels are higher than normal, organic 13 materials accumulates and when lower than normal 14 decomposition increases and there is a net 15 annual loss of organic matter". 16 But what I would like to ask you is 17 how do you know this. Where did this conclusion 18 come from? 19 A. This conclusion comes from the basic 20 paradigms of how wetlands grow and develop. 21 If you wanted to review this in 22 detail, I would refer you to Mithchell 23 Groslings 1986 book titled Wetlands and it may 24 very well be there. I know that I added a 25 number of additional references, preliminary JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 179 1 draft articles. 2 I normally draft-- it starts out 3 with an introductory set of materials, much of 4 which I then go back and add the reference, the 5 backup statements, like that one. 6 I can't remember if that has been 7 done for this or not. 8 Q. I would like to ask you to turn to 9 page four and just put on the record that page 10 four is 1261768 which is Earl Blank's Bate stamp 11 number. 12 I would like to ask you to refer to 13 the last paragraph and I am looking at the last 14 two sentences which set forth what the study 15 sets out to do. 16 Doctor, I would like to ask you to 17 read those seven answers and then again I am 18 going to ask you to explain to me what this 19 proves or what this is attempting to 20 demonstrate? 21 A. Okay. Would you like me to read 22 these. 23 Q. You can read them to yourself. 24 A. All right. 25 Q. I just want you to understand what JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 180 1 we are talking about. These are the last two 2 sentences on page four. 3 MR. HYDE: It might be clear for 4 record to read them into the record. 5 A. Okay. The first sentence states 6 "This study examined the concentration of fungi 7 in surface pete across the Everglades in areas 8 subjected to increase flooding and nutrient 9 loading and in the areas less impacted by 10 nutrients". 11 This refers to the examination of 12 the quantification of fungi through ergosterol 13 measures in the course that we've discussed 14 earlier. 15 The second sentence goes into the 16 importance of fungi in decomposition of Typha 17 and Cladium leaves was examined under both high 18 and low nutrient conditions in WCA-2A, and this 19 relates to our discussion on respiration 20 earlier. 21 Q. Is that a pretty concise summary of 22 what it is that you were trying to accomplish or 23 what this study does? 24 A. Yes. It doesn't elaborate on all 25 the facets of those. It doesn't discuss the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 181 1 real importance of fungi and bacteria in the 2 decomposition but yeah, it summarizes them. 3 Q. What I would like to ask you to do, 4 I am going to scuffle to do is if you could, try 5 to explain to me what this would demonstrate or 6 what this demonstrates. 7 I have read your reports and I have 8 to confess I still don't understand what it is 9 that this shows. 10 Can you explain that to me in lay 11 persons terms where I might be able to 12 understand it? 13 A. Okay. Let's start from the 14 beginning. 15 The first thing it shows is that 16 fungi are a component of the soil/pete/root 17 complex within the Everglades and that they are 18 found in both Typha and sawgrass stands, that 19 they are found under high nutrient and low 20 nutrient conditions and that there is a 21 reasonable amount of spacial variation. 22 Q. Between what? 23 A. Between the presence or absence of 24 quantities. 25 In other words, there is not an even JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 182 1 amount scattered everywhere. There is a fair 2 bit of variation within each species and across 3 the Everglades, and the data also show that 4 there does not appear to be any relationship 5 between quantities of fungi and soil phosphorous 6 or nearness to the EEA. 7 Q. Is that the conclusion? 8 A. That is what the study basically 9 shows. 10 Q. That there is no relationship 11 between-- would you fill that in for me? 12 A. There is no relationship between the 13 biomass of fungi as demonstrated through 14 ergosterol measures and one species of plants or 15 others, or with respect to phosphorous quantity 16 and soil or with respect to nearness to the EAA 17 and that measure was basically using latitude 18 and longitude. 19 Q. Now I understand what this report 20 has done and what the conclusion that is reached 21 is. Now what does that mean. 22 So there is no relationship. What 23 does that tell you? What does that have to do 24 with the Everglades? 25 A. There are several questions there. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 183 1 From a purely scientific standpoint, it is 2 purely fascinating. 3 From the standpoint of your 4 interest, what it says, what it says to me is 5 that it addresses what I would call my working 6 hypothesis. 7 And that working hyphothesis was 8 whether different species of plants, for 9 instance, would have different relationships to 10 fungi and whether increased growth of plants in 11 the high nutrient area alter the quantities of 12 fungi in those areas. 13 The cells could have been in either 14 direction. It could have been that more 15 nutrient availability for instance would fuel 16 more plant growth which would make the habitat 17 better for fungi or it could have been the other 18 way and made it worse for fungi. 19 What I have was an interest in 20 knowing whether there was a changed area in 21 which there appeared to be an identical primary 22 conductive activity. 23 Q. Forgive me but I am trying to 24 understand what is the difference if there is 25 fungi or not. What does that demonstrate? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 184 1 MR. HYDE: I think that is the 2 point, that tjere isn't a difference. 3 BY MR. BARTELL: 4 Q. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but I 5 mean, so what? What is that showing us? 6 A. It is showing us if for instance 7 let's take the two possible alternatives that we 8 could have seen, one, we could have seen that 9 there was for instance a loss of fungi from the 10 soils under it, increased nutrients, that could 11 tell us something about the impact the nutrients 12 were having on the plants themselves. 13 That could influence the manner in 14 which nutrients are sequestered. It could 15 influence the way pete was accumulating. 16 It would tell us a lot about why one 17 species could maybe have a competitive advantage 18 in terms of soil interactions. 19 On the other hand, if there is no 20 difference between the two, it basically is 21 suggesting that there has not been a major shift 22 in the soil transition from high nutrient to low 23 nutrient. 24 As I said earlier, these studies 25 were designed as first approved to explore some JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 185 1 of the potential hyphotheses that one might 2 develop when thinking about a replacement of one 3 community by another or, two, to increase 4 nutrients versus the more natural or stayed away 5 from nutrients. 6 Q. So is it fair to say this study then 7 demonstrates that measuring fungi will not 8 enable you to reach conclusions regarding the 9 change from one species to another, cattail and 10 sawgrass? 11 A. No I don't think that is what it 12 means at all. 13 I think what it means is that if I 14 were trying to allocate funding to understand 15 how increased nutrients or how this one area of 16 the Everglades which is close to the nutrients 17 imputs different than background areas, what it 18 tells me is that there isn't likely to be any 19 information gleaned by looking at the fungi 20 components because that doesn't seem to have 21 changed. 22 So if I have limited resources, then 23 I am probably going to spend it on something 24 else. 25 One of the interests in this whole JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 186 1 case is in trying to understand the relationship 2 of cattail and sawgrass to a set of physical 3 parameters, hydrology, nutrients and so forth 4 but also affecting plant species relationships 5 or biotic interactions. 6 And those can be influenced by 7 hydrology through the soil and eliminating the 8 organisms that might be adding oxygen to the 9 soil itself and could be an extremely important 10 component to understanding, and I guess bottom 11 line is, I guess there doesn't seem to have been 12 a shift. 13 Q. So then there wasn't a change in the 14 quantity, but does that necessarily mean that 15 there was not necessarily a change in the 16 composition of fungi communicated? 17 A. I would say that based upon what we 18 know now, both hyphotheses would probably have 19 equal weight. 20 One, that there could be a fungi 21 change. For instance one hyphothesis is that 22 each of these species of plants has a fungal 23 associate that is different that would be with 24 it. 25 So in other words, you wouldn't find JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 187 1 the same species of fungi associated with 2 cattail that you would find with sawgrass. 3 It might do the same thing but it 4 would still be a different species. 5 That is a hypothesis, a 6 workinghyphothesis that is dismissed by this. 7 The other side of that, that fungi 8 that can invade and live in anerobic soils seems 9 to be fairly limited in the numbers of species 10 that can do it. 11 From that standpoint, you could make 12 a valid argument that we are probably dealing 13 with the same species or closely related 14 species. I would say both of those 15 hyphotheses would be valid. 16 Q. Who designed this experiment? Is 17 it fair to call this an experiment or a study? 18 Which is more appropriate? 19 A. I would say a study is more 20 appropriate. 21 Q. Who designed this study? 22 A. I guess I designed it in terms of I 23 was the one asking for data to be collected. 24 The initial approach was to look at 25 as much different areas in the Everglades as I JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 188 1 possibly could that were under as many different 2 sets of conditions including hydrology, nutrient 3 loading that we could probably find. 4 So the intent was to get the maximum 5 difference that I could find within the 6 Everglades. 7 Q. Were you able to follow through with 8 that intent as far as the sampling? 9 A. I would say that this was a 10 preliminary study, preliminary in terms of the 11 number of samples. 12 I would have liked to obviously had 13 a whole lot more samples and had this study 14 done, and I would have probably not pursued this 15 tact any further, even with this size of data 16 set simply because the data that I got basically 17 suggested that there were maybe other hypotheses 18 to work on, not in relation of cattail and 19 sawgrass to fungi. 20 Q. Do you think the same would hold 21 true for bacterial communities? 22 A. I would anticipate and I would say 23 based upon some of the documents that I have 24 seen in terms of Pete accumulation and in terms 25 of the decomposition studies, I would anticipate JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 189 1 that there would be some different bacteria 2 involved in the decomposition process, and in 3 fact maybe some lower rates of decompsoition in 4 some cites, particularly those areas that tend 5 to have more water piled on them. 6 If they are flooded more frequently, 7 they are going to have lower oxygenation and so 8 decomposition then in the sediment is more 9 likely to be carried out by facultated anerobics 10 or even anerobics themselves. 11 So the hydrology, the degree of 12 drying of a particular cite is going to have a 13 great deal to do with the community of micros. 14 I wouldn't expect if you did a 15 speculating study where you just looked at what 16 was there and indentified it, I wouldn't expect 17 to see a difference in the individual species 18 present. 19 I would expect to see a difference 20 in the contribution of each species or group, 21 however you wanted to use that taxonomy, 22 depending upon the degree of flooding and oxygen 23 tension. 24 That is why Pete accumulates faster 25 under more flooding conditions. There is less JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 190 1 decomposition. 2 Q. You said you are the one who 3 designed the study. Did you write a proposal 4 for the study? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Where is that proposal? 7 A. Well, I wrote a proposal to do a 8 great deal of this. 9 Q. Where is that proposal? 10 A. It was supplied to you in that 11 first round of documents that you got from me. 12 I saw it on the list of ones that had been sent 13 to you. 14 You actually have my draft with my 15 handwritten scribbles, which you probably 16 couldn't, read, and a typed draft. 17 Q. So you did have a proposal. There 18 is a handwritten and a typed draft of that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. I understand it was 21 supplied and we should be getting take tomorrow 22 morning. 23 Nonetheless, to discuss that 24 proposal, was that proposal peer reviewed? 25 A. You want to define peer. It was JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 191 1 reviewed by some of my colleagues at BDA. 2 To that extent it was peer reviewed. 3 Q. Did the proposal go through the 4 university where you are employed? 5 A. No, this was at a time when I was 6 not at the university. 7 Q. Were the statistical tests that were 8 going to be used, and I may not be using my 9 phrase correctly, the statistical analysis that 10 were going to be used in this test, formulated 11 prior to the sampling? 12 A. The individual information that was 13 required for the sampling protocol was evaluated 14 and a determination made as to what data would 15 be required before a sample size was determined, 16 and in fact that is what the pilot study was set 17 to be. 18 Q. Then you just transferred the same 19 data from the pilot study and tried to use that 20 to accomplish what the study itself was going to 21 do? 22 A. That is a fair assessment, 23 understanding that what it meant was that data 24 would be more limited, and probably less 25 extensive. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 192 1 In not knowing what the pilot data 2 was going to be, it is was hard to anticipate 3 what that would mean. 4 Part of that study as I recall, and 5 this is vague in my memory as well, is that I 6 wanted to repeat part of what Steve Davis had 7 done with respect to decomposition. 8 I wanted to add the components that 9 he did not do and that was to look at the fungi 10 bacterial interactions so that I would have a 11 handle on how to interpret some of the 12 information that he had from liter bags and 13 relate it to quantification of bacteria and 14 fungi involved in that decomposition. 15 Q. Did he look at the fungi bacterial 16 issue? 17 A. In the paper that I am referring to, 18 he was looking at what happened to the nutrients 19 in the liter as it decomposed, and he was 20 looking at mass loss rates, how fast the 21 materials were disappearing from litter bags. 22 I was interested in adding some more 23 information to that. 24 Q. So it is my understanding that not 25 only-- that you weren't really trying-- you JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 193 1 didn't run the same test as he did? 2 A. I was going to run many of them. I 3 was going to be doing some of the same and size 4 of nutrients that he did and I was going to also 5 be looking at fungi versus bacterial components. 6 The attempt was to duplicate part of 7 his experiment in some other places as I recall 8 and also to add some additional components. 9 Q. Is the only reason that you didn't 10 do everything that you planned was because of 11 the lack of funding? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Who approved this proposal? 14 A. It was not approved. 15 Q. Who approved the proposal to do the 16 initial core study? 17 MR. HYDE: You mean the pilot 18 study? 19 Q. Excuse me, the pilot study. 20 A. That was done under previous 21 contract looking at the imbalance issue and what 22 that meant, what the various components of 23 imbalance could possibly be as part of an 24 exploration of what potential imbalance could 25 there be. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 194 1 Q. Has anybody paid for you to do the 2 rest of this study? 3 A. Not yet. 4 Q. Do you anticipate that somebody will 5 be paying you for this additional work? 6 A. I have no funding at the present 7 time and no one has promised any funding. 8 Q. Did you do this because you were 9 curious? 10 A. I think that the impetus for 11 engaging in this facet of research had to do 12 with my background, work that I had done 13 previously with my knowledge of and emerging 14 understanding of wetlands and how plants related 15 to the wetland environment relevant to fungi. 16 And because it fit in amazingly well 17 with some of questions being generated by both 18 sides of controversy. 19 Q. I would like to ask you to turn to 20 page five of your report and this-- I guess my 21 question is going to be referring to the cite 22 selection. 23 I guess this would also be relative 24 to page 18 which is the station locations for 25 the soil report as well as pages 20 and 21 which JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 195 1 refer to an actual map showing the study areas. 2 My question is who selected the study 3 cites? 4 A. I did. 5 Well let me go back. I selected the 6 LN&L study cites. 7 Q. What other cites are there? 8 A. The other cites on there are either 9 in the location Loxahatchee on page 18 or there 10 are other parts of the Everglades and these 11 cites, the location that is cited were selected 12 because those are the only ones the federal 13 government would let me sample in the 14 Loxahatchee. 15 The other cites were selected 16 because they offer, as I said before, the 17 maximum variation and potential cites within the 18 Everglades. 19 My request to my field crew who was 20 out doing, selecting courses, looking at 21 phosphorous was that I wanted samples that where 22 both cattail and sawgrass were growing pretty 23 close together in as many different types of 24 habitats as possible, greatly flooded, close to 25 canals, away from canals. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 196 1 Q. Other than the Loxahatchee cite 2 which I understand that you didn't have any 3 choice regarding, all of these other cites, and 4 I am looking at the map at the end of your 5 report, all seem to be very close to the 6 perimeters of the water conservation areas and 7 very close to the canals. 8 My question to you is why were there 9 no cites at interiors locations, for instance, 10 right in the middle of water conservation areas? 11 A. Well, those would have been the 12 kinds of cites that I would have used had I had 13 greater funding. 14 There were some cites that I saw in 15 2-A for instance and even the Loxahatchee where 16 I would have, had I been given free access to 17 Loxahatchee and so forth and so on, I would have 18 chosen as my cites because both species were 19 present. 20 Q. Who collect the soil cores? 21 A. George Carlson and Joe Birch. 22 Q. Who are they employed by? 23 A. BDA. 24 Q. Are they still employed at BDA? 25 A. To the best of my knowledge. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 197 1 Q. Did you demonstrate to them how you 2 wanted these soil cores collected? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was there anybody with them when 5 they selected these soil cores? 6 A. I am sure there was. It was not me. 7 I am sure there was an operator. I have seen 8 where there was an operator handling an air 9 boat or whatever they used to get there. 10 I think on one case they used-- I am 11 not sure what the term is but I think a tread 12 vehicle I seem to recall. 13 Q. When you selected the high and low 14 nutrient cites, what criteria did you use to 15 determine those cites? 16 A. Well, I was looking for cites that 17 had both cattail and sawgrass. I was looking 18 for cites that had the maximum amount of 19 background information available. 20 So my preference would have been, 21 for instance, cites that had water 22 qualifications in which there have been lot of 23 data selected by presumably a cite that would 24 give me the information, but anything quite 25 frankly would have fit the bill. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 198 1 That was sort of why I think the 2 station, the high nutrient station was selected. 3 The low nutrients station was 4 selected to get basically maximum distance from 5 the other cite. 6 I also tried to have comparable 7 stations in terms of distance from canals. They 8 both obviously had to have cattails and I was 9 trying to match as closely as possible water 10 depth. 11 Q. How did you determine water depth? 12 A. I would say I determined water depth 13 by the old fashion method of depth relative to 14 my waders on a particular day. 15 There was no attempt to look at 16 depth of water relative to a gauge. My primary 17 interest was in picking cites that had similar 18 water depths on two different days. 19 The first was sort of a preliminary 20 look at the area and the second was the date in 21 which we initiated the experiment in January. 22 Q. You said the level on your wader, 23 does that mean literally standing there and 24 seeing where it came up to on your legs? 25 A. Not on the legs, on the chest. One JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 199 1 could have, for instance, very easily used a 2 measuring device of some sort. 3 In fact that was done as we were 4 initially setting up the cites. But what I was 5 more than anything interested in was the entire 6 vegetative cite itself because the intent was to 7 have leaves, plants from the entire cite, not 8 just one spot and cite. 9 And since it was extremely difficult 10 to measure elevation without something relative, 11 there was two attempts made to develop a big 12 data set on the depth of flooding. 13 Q. There are some numbers set forth for 14 dissolved oxygen PH. 15 Who figured these numbers? 16 A. These are from Bud Smart and I would 17 know that there is a conductance of 5.8 that is 18 not right there. I remember that was one thing 19 that I caught in looking through the draft. 20 Q. Do you recall what the correct 21 number is? 22 A. Under five hundred something, like 23 four seventy. 24 You will see that in the next draft 25 because it will be corrected. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES 150 West Flagler Street (305) 371-1537 200 1 Q. Who is Bud Smart? 2 A. I should say Dr. Myles Smart. He is 3 a scientist who was working on Periphyton at the 4 time that I was doing this. 5 Q. Where is he employed? 6 A. I think he is now self-employed in 7 North Carolina. He has his own consulting 8 company now. 9 Q. I may have missed something in your 10 answer, forgive me if I am repeating something. 11 Was he out there in the Everglades. Did he do 12 some research? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. HYDE: Doctor Smart is a 15 Periphyton expert. He is one of the listed 16 witnesses. 17 Q. Why did you use cites with a mixture 18 of cattails and cattails and sawgrass instead of 19 pure stands of each? 20 A. Well, they were pure stands of each 21 within the area they occurred, and for both of 22 them effectively there was a stand of 23 significant size, such that it was clearly 24 recognizable from an air boat, b