1 1 2 STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS 3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE 4 OF FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural CASE NOS. 92-3038 Cooperative Marketing Association; 92-3039 5 ROTH FARMS, INC.; and WEDGWORTH 92-3040 FARMS, INC., 6 and FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; 7 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., 8 and FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE 9 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC.; 10 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., 11 Petitioners, 12 vs. 13 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, an Agency of the State 14 of Florida, 15 Respondent, 16 and 17 MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA; the UNITED STATES OF 18 AMERICA; and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and 19 the FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, 20 Intervenors. __________________________________/ 21 22 DEPOSITION OF ANDREW DZURIK 23 24 100 Salem Court 25 Tallahassee, Florida 32301 904/878-2221 2 1 2 3 4 5 ___________________________________________________________ 6 DEPOSITION OF: ANDREW DZURIK 7 TAKEN AT THE INSTANCE OF: Intervenor FDER 8 9 DATE: Thursday, February 18, 1993 10 TIME: Commenced at 10:00 a.m. 11 Concluded at 4:25 p.m. 12 LOCATION: Dept. of Environmental Reg. 13 2600 Blair Stone Road Tallahassee, Florida 14 15 REPORTED BY: TERRY WILHELMI, CSR Notary Public in and for the 16 State of Florida at Large ___________________________________________________________ 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 APPEARANCES: 2 REPRESENTING THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, 3 UNITED STATES SUGAR, and NEW HOPE SOUTH: 4 WILLIAM L. HYDE, ESQUIRE Peeples, Earl & Blank 5 2l5 South Monroe Street Suite 350 6 Tallahassee, Florida 32301 7 REPRESENTING THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER 8 MANAGEMENT DISTRICT: 9 PATRICK S. COUSINS, ESQUIRE Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, Ltd. 10 4100 One Centrust Financial Center 100 S.E. Second Street 11 Miami, Florida 33l3l 12 REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: 13 STEPHEN G. BARTELL, ESQUIRE 14 U.S. Department of Justice 60l Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. 15 Fifth Floor, Room 56l3 Washington, D.C. 20004 16 17 REPRESENTING THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION: 18 KEITH C. HETRICK, ESQUIRE 19 DONNA LAPLANTE, ESQUIRE Florida Dept. of Environmental Regulation 20 2600 Blair Stone Road Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400 21 22 * * * * * 23 24 25 4 1 2 I N D E X 3 WITNESS PAGE 4 ANDREW DZURIK 5 Direct Examination by Mr. Cousins 5 6 Cross Examination by Mr. Bartell 152 7 8 9 10 E X H I B I T S 11 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 12 Dzurik l Curriculum Vitae 16 Dzurik 2 Dzurik's Opinion of SWIM Plan 26 13 Dzurik 3 9/2/83 Letter from A.J. Salem 154 14 15 16 17 18 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 157 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 STIPULATIONS 2 The following deposition of ANDREW DZURIK was taken 3 on oral examination, pursuant to notice, for purposes of 4 discovery, and for use as evidence, and for other uses and 5 purposes as may be permitted by the applicable and 6 governing rules. All objections, except as to the form of 7 the question, are reserved until final hearing in this 8 cause; and reading and signing is not waived. 9 * * * 10 Thereupon, 11 ANDREW DZURIK 12 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was 13 examined and testified as follows: 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. COUSINS: 16 Q Good morning, sir, my name is Patrick St. George 17 Cousins, I'm from the law firm of Popham, Haik, Schnobrich 18 & Kaufman, in Miami, Florida. Today we are going to go 19 through an exercise that's called a deposition and I would 20 first like to ask you whether you have ever been deposed 21 before? 22 A Um-hum, yes. 23 Q In light of that, I'm going to ask you some 24 questions later on about those depositions, but I'm going 25 to tell you what I call my rules for a deposition, which is 6 1 similar to any other activity, like baseball or football, 2 you have rules. I'm going to ask you questions and 3 hopefully you are going to give me answers. If for some 4 reason you don't have an answer to the question, just tell 5 me you don't have an answer. If I ask a question and you 6 don't understand it, tell me that and I will try to 7 rephrase the question. You may want to wait a brief second 8 before answering, because on occasion your attorney might 9 have an objection, which I hope he wouldn't, but he might, 10 and he needs to get that on the record. You also need to 11 remember, as you probably do know from your past deposition 12 experience, that you need to answer audibly, you need to 13 say yes or no, because the court reporter, even though she 14 is probably very good, is not often quick enough to catch 15 nods of heads or um-hums or huh-uhs. Do you understand 16 that, sir? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. HETRICK: Before we begin, at the outset 19 the Department would just like to place an objection 20 on the record. 21 Bill, we appreciate you supplying the opinions 22 of Mr. Dzurik and hopefully I'll be able to look 23 through these today and be able to adequately ask 24 questions on these, but we haven't -- I haven't had 25 time, I just got both of these documents this morning 7 1 and haven't had time to review them in much detail or 2 formulate any questions over them yet, so I'm going to 3 reserve the right on the record that to the extent 4 that we are not able to cover questions in this 5 deposition on these documents, that I can recall Mr. 6 Dzurik on specific questions on these documents having 7 to do with his opinions formulated. 8 MR. HYDE: Let me just note for the record that 9 I didn't actually obtain these documents myself until 10 yesterday afternoon at approximately 2:00 and at that 11 point I immediately instructed my secretary to start 12 faxing them to the various parties and I do believe 13 that we did get it faxed over yesterday afternoon and 14 I did try to call you to make sure that you did in 15 fact receive them. I apologize for the inconvenience 16 that was occasioned by this but, again, we were just 17 trying to get this over at the earliest possible 18 opportunity and I didn't receive it myself until 19 yesterday afternoon. 20 I would further note, too, that I think that a 21 review of the document that I provided to you is 22 really in essence a summary of the opinions that Mr. 23 Dzurik will be offering today at this proceeding. 24 It's not in the nature of what you would call original 25 data or anything like that and it's been provided to 8 1 everyone primarily as an aid in assisting in the 2 preparation of their questions and to give some focus 3 and format to this proceeding. 4 I understand your need to reserve your 5 objections and if there is any problem with that, we 6 will discuss what, if any, remedy we need to propose. 7 MR. COUSINS: Also for the record, I would also 8 like to note -- this is Patrick Cousins -- that I 9 received the documents roughly, I would say 6:00 10 yesterday evening, and I did have a conversation with 11 Mr. Hyde regarding the content of it before I received 12 it. He made the same statements that he made on 13 record earlier, but obviously it does pose a problem 14 in taking a deposition, even if the documents that 15 Attorney Hyde speak of are readily understandable, 16 there still wasn't time to adequately prepare to go 17 over that document. 18 Now, if we are done with that, we will get back 19 to our questioning. 20 MR. HYDE: One thing we might do, if at any 21 point you feel you need additional time, we have two 22 days scheduled for this, we could take a break or you 23 could just use the deposition itself as the way to 24 educate yourself about these documents. I think they 25 are fairly straight forward and I hope we can 9 1 accomplish it in that fashion but, again, I'll let you 2 all decide how best to handle this. We can address 3 the problems as they may arise. 4 I would also like to note for the record that I 5 have not unfortunately prepared a privilege list, but 6 there is only one document that would be on it anyway 7 and I will note for the record it is a December 10, 8 1992 letter from me to Mr. Dzurik, which basically 9 constitutes a letter agreement for the provision of 10 his professional services to the League. We believe 11 it to be attorney work product. 12 I had not even noticed until last night that the 13 District's notice of taking deposition wanted such a 14 document, at least the previous notices by other 15 parties haven't requested that, but in any event we 16 still believe it's a privileged document and will not 17 be providing it to you at this time. I think this is 18 a position that's consistent with that that's been 19 advanced by the United States, in that they are not 20 providing their contracts either. 21 I will, however, allow you to inquire into the 22 terms of the relationship, professional relationship, 23 between Mr. Dzurik and the League. For example, you 24 could ask, you know, rates of compensation, things of 25 that nature, what his kind of work is, but the 10 1 document goes beyond that in terms of outlining what 2 the relationship is between the law firm and Mr. 3 Dzurik. 4 MR. COUSINS: Okay, thank you. 5 BY MR. COUSINS: 6 Q Sir, could you please state your name for the 7 record? 8 A Andrew Albert Dzurik. 9 Q What is your address, sir? 10 A Home address is 209 Lakeshore Drive, 11 Tallahassee, Florida. 12 Q What is your professional address, sir? 13 A I am a professor at Florida A & M and Florida 14 State University College of Engineering. 15 Q Would that be the full mailing address, sir? 16 A Full mailing address would be Department of 17 Civil Engineering, P.O. Box 2175, Tallahassee 32316-2175. 18 Q I'm going to focus my initial questions towards 19 your curriculum vitae and what I would like, I know you are 20 very learned and you have many accomplishments here listed, 21 I'm going to go through the pattern and ask you so we can 22 have a clear record, let me ask you questions that will 23 relate to a broad area, but you might be able to just give 24 me highlights in those areas. For instance, if I ask you 25 about education, I don't need to know about grade school 11 1 and high school, just highlights. 2 Starting with that, what schools or training 3 courses have you attended? 4 A Bachelor's degree in civil engineering at 5 Valparaiso University, Master's in civil engineering at 6 Case Western Reserve, PhD in regional planning at Cornell. 7 Q Is that the extent of your educational 8 background? 9 A Formal education, yes. I have attended various 10 workshops and things of that sort. 11 Q Can you list for us maybe three main workshops 12 that you have attended? 13 A One by the American Society of Civil Engineers 14 on, I'm trying to think, it was roughly owning and managing 15 a consulting engineering business. A workshop at Colorado 16 State University on design of constructed wetlands for 17 wastewater treatment. Workshop at Georgia Tech on 18 experimental design. Probably more of the other workshops 19 I have been involved is on the teaching side of the thing, 20 rather than being a student. 21 Q Sir, you mentioned a workshop regarding the 22 wetlands, was that at Georgia Tech you said? 23 A Colorado State. 24 Q Colorado State, I'm sorry. Do you recall when 25 that was? 12 1 A Yes, summer of last year, '92. 2 Q What was your reason for going to that workshop? 3 A To learn about design of small wetlands for 4 wastewater treatment as part of my teaching and design of 5 water quality facilities, so essentially learning new 6 material or learning more about it. 7 Q Did you learn anything from that seminar that 8 would assist you in your deposition testimony today? 9 MR. HYDE: I would just like to note for the 10 record that Mr. Dzurik is not being offered as an 11 expert witness for wetlands generally or wastewater to 12 wetlands types of issues. He is offered as an expert 13 in basically water resources planning and his 14 testimony will be as to whether the Everglades SWIM 15 plan is an example of good planning as that term is 16 commonly understood within the profession. Mr. Dzurik 17 will not be offering testimony, for example, as to 18 treatment efficiencies of the storm water treatment 19 areas proposed in the plan or generally anything about 20 the storm water treatment area other than the fact of 21 their existence. 22 I just note that for the record in case that 23 might help you in framing your questions. 24 A My short answer would have been no, it didn't 25 really affect what I'm doing here. 13 1 BY MR. COUSINS: 2 Q What on-the-job training have you received? 3 A No on-the-job other than going to these 4 workshops, which is not really on-the-job. 5 Q Have you had occasion to be involved in actually 6 managing projects that you lecture or teach about? 7 A No. My experience has been in consulting or 8 taking a year off at different times to do things which I 9 might then refer to in teaching as an example, but very 10 indirect, not a direct relationship between my teaching and 11 that type of activity. 12 Q Do you have any special licenses or any special 13 certificates? 14 A I am a registered professional engineer in the 15 state of Florida. 16 Q Anything else? 17 A No. 18 Q Has your accreditation ever been questioned, 19 investigated or suspended? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you ever been sued? 22 A No. 23 Q You stated earlier that you have been deposed in 24 the past. What occasioned you to be deposed in the past? 25 A There's two that I have been involved with. 14 1 One was personal, just a divorce case in my own 2 situation, a deposition. 3 The other was not, as I think back, was not 4 really a deposition. I was involved in an administrative 5 hearing as an expert, but I don't recall that we had a 6 deposition in that. 7 Q What was the nature of that hearing? 8 A That was a medical waste, small medical waste 9 incinerator that I had done some work on, which actually 10 was a permit application at DER for an air quality permit. 11 Q How much of your present income is derived from 12 testifying or preparing for litigation? 13 A Prior to this case, none other than that air 14 pollution one. 15 Q How about since this case, sir? 16 A Percent of annual income? 17 Q Roughly. 18 A Five percent probably. That would be high 19 maybe. 20 Q How did you get involved in this particular 21 case? 22 A I was called as far as a possibility of being an 23 expert in water resources planning. I think that came 24 through a referral system of just knowing different people 25 in the university or different people knowing me. 15 1 Q Who contacted you? 2 A Mr. Hyde. 3 Q When did he contact you? 4 A Let's say perhaps October of '92, maybe 5 November. 6 Q What did he orally ask you to do at that time? 7 A Review the SWIM documents, SWIM plans with 8 regard to the planning procedure, the opinion whether it's 9 a good or bad water resources planning as far as my 10 expertise on planning. 11 Q Have you ever published any original work 12 regarding the topic that you are going to give deposition 13 testimony on today? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Could you give me the title of that work or 16 those works? 17 A The easiest one to identify is a book I had 18 written called Water Resources Planning. 19 MR. HYDE: Just note for the record that his 20 publications are listed on his C.V. 21 A Do you want more details, publisher, date, that 22 sort of thing? 23 BY MR. COUSINS: 24 Q Just a date, sir. 25 A 1990 publication date. 16 1 Q Could you briefly describe what that book 2 entails? 3 A A general overview of the water resources 4 planning process. It includes concepts of hydrology, water 5 quality, water supply, water resources law and 6 administration, planning itself as an activity, process of 7 planning, mathematical modeling as applied to water 8 resources planning, and then various applied aspects of 9 water resources planning, such as water supply, navigation, 10 river basin management, various topics that might come up 11 in planning. 12 Q Dr. Dzurik, are there any other documents that 13 you have published that are going to bear on your testimony 14 today? 15 A No. If any it would be just marginal, I had 16 written some articles related to the book, same types of 17 material just showing up as articles. I believe those are 18 listed on my C.V. 19 MR. COUSINS: I would like to have Dr. Dzurik's 20 C.V. marked as Dzurik Exhibit 1. I just have one copy 21 myself. 22 THE WITNESS: I have an extra copy. 23 (Dzurik Exhibit 1 marked for identification.) 24 BY MR. COUSINS: 25 Q Dr. Dzurik, you just handed me a copy of your 17 1 curriculum vitae and we just marked that as Dzurik Exhibit 2 No. 1. Could you please turn to the publication section of 3 your curriculum vitae, I'm sure you are familiar with it, 4 but for my benefit could you point to the publications that 5 are going to have a bearing on your presentation today? 6 A Towards the bottom of the page, Water Resources 7 Planning. 8 Q Which page are you referring to, sir? 9 A Page 3, the one that says Publications Since 10 1980. 11 Q Okay. 12 A The section on books, third item down, Water 13 Resources Planning, a chapter in a book published by the 14 American Society of Civil Engineers. 15 Then just below that, an article called 16 Socio-economic Considerations in Water Resources Planning 17 and the second article in that same listing is Legal 18 Aspects of Water Resources. 19 Those would be the only ones -- oh, go to the 20 next page under Articles, third item down, an article 21 called Evolution of Planning Theory and Practice. I would 22 say that's it. They are all very much related, same type 23 of information, same type of writing. 24 Q Excuse me, Doctor, when you say they are all 25 very much related, are you talking about the Evolution of 18 1 Planning Theory and Practice article being the one? 2 A Well, all of the ones I mentioned. The book 3 that I have, Water Resources Planning, incorporates a good 4 bit of what I had done there as individual articles. 5 Q So far you have listed four, three books and one 6 article, that assisted in forming the basis of your 7 testimony today? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did you bring those documents along with you, 10 sir? 11 A I brought the book along. I did not bring the 12 articles because, as I said, essentially the book covers -- 13 in my mind covers whatever would have been in there. 14 Q When you said you brought the book along, I 15 think I'm seeing three books? 16 A I'm sorry, the book that I wrote called Water 17 Resources Planning, the top of that list on Publications 18 Since 1980. 19 Q Now, is that the same book that's referenced as 20 the third item on books? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you bring -- which books have you brought, 23 Water Resources Planning? 24 A This is the book that I had written, I wrote the 25 whole book. The other articles are just chapters I had 19 1 written that are in somebody else's books. 2 Q Did you bring those books along with you? 3 A No. I don't even have the books, as a matter of 4 fact. I have copies of the individual articles, my drafts 5 of them. 6 MR. COUSINS: I would like to request from your 7 attorney -- 8 MR. HYDE: We will be glad to provide them. It 9 had been my understanding prior to coming here today 10 that the testimony that Dr. Dzurik will be giving will 11 be based on what has been cited in this material that 12 I have given to you. Certainly any time you deal with 13 an expert, you deal with all of the opinions and all 14 the knowledge they have acquired over a lifetime of 15 work, but I think that the specific documents that he 16 will be relying upon are those which are cited in this 17 summary of testimony and summary of opinions and the 18 documents that are excerpted and attached to that, if 19 that is of any assistance to you. We will be glad to 20 provide you with copies of any of these articles, too. 21 MR. COUSINS: I appreciate it. 22 MR. HYDE: Which one did you want, the third 23 one? 24 MR. COUSINS: The third and the fourth under 25 books and then the third article that's listed. 20 1 That would be, for the record, Water Resources 2 Planning, Chapter 12 of the Urban Planning Guide, 3 American Society of Civil Engineers, 1986. 4 Next item would be Socio-economic Considerations 5 in Water Resources Planning, and The Legal Aspects of 6 Water Resources, in Y. Muljevic and G. Macesich, 7 Yugoslav-American Studies. 8 The article would be authored by A. Dzurik and 9 R. Feldhaus, Evolution of Planning Theory and 10 Practice, Journal of Urban Planning and Development. 11 MR. HYDE: That's fine. 12 A Let me follow up on Bill's comments. I did not 13 look back on those articles at all. As we say, that's just 14 an accumulation that might be related, but I didn't look 15 back at those. 16 BY MR. COUSINS: 17 Q What I am going to do is eventually I'm going to 18 get to the documents that your attorney presented to us 19 that you had prepared recently and that will be an exhibit 20 and I will go through that systematically, point by point, 21 and ask you at that time to explain to us what you have 22 written and what sources you have relied on. These 23 preliminary questions, even though I do understand that any 24 expert will bring the benefit of his background and I would 25 hope that he would, to any testimony, I just wanted to make 21 1 sure that I wasn't missing out on some of your knowledge in 2 being able to better understand you and your opinions. 3 With that, we'll go back to the questions. 4 I briefly touched on before whether or not you 5 had ever done any research relevant to the topic that you 6 have been designated as being an expert providing an 7 opinion on today, have you ever done any research in the 8 areas that you have discussed? 9 A I would say writing these articles in these 10 books involves a lot of research. I never had a research 11 contract that specifically dealt with that topic. 12 Q When you say that topic, which topic are you 13 referring to? 14 A The water resources planning. In fact, I don't 15 know of anybody that has had such a thing. I have done 16 research on various aspects of water resources planning, 17 contracts on that. 18 Q Could you please tell me about some of the 19 research that you have done regarding the water resources 20 planning and, if you could, before you answer, if you could 21 also just give me the dates and the areas that you have, 22 areas of the country that you went about doing this 23 research? 24 A Water use, I did a study in northwest Florida 25 probably '84 through '86. 22 1 Q Maybe we can do this, Dr. Dzurik, you can list 2 all of the research that's relevant to your testimony today 3 or helped form the basis of your opinion, then we will go 4 back and systematically discuss just the highlights of 5 those research projects. 6 MR. HYDE: I think maybe I can help clarify this 7 picture for us. The research that's relevant to the 8 testimony that's to be given today and at a final 9 hearing is that which is specifically referenced in 10 this summary of opinions that I have provided to you. 11 Now I think you are asking for another set of 12 documents, too, as to what kind of research has he 13 done generally in the area of water resources planning 14 and you can certainly inquire into that area if you so 15 desire, but I think it's important to separate the two 16 for purposes of the eliciting what his expert 17 testimony is and the basis for his opinions. 18 MR. COUSINS: Now, I thought my question was 19 pretty clear. If the witness didn't understand it, 20 for instance, if I asked a question and he does not 21 have any research which does not relate to the 22 opinions that he is going to render, I guess he would 23 say no, I don't have any other than documents that I 24 provided. 25 MR. HYDE: Perhaps the confusion is just in my 23 1 mind really more than Dr. Dzurik's, but I think that 2 it would be -- I think that the questions being asked 3 are a bit ambiguous in that regard as to what 4 precisely you are going after and I was hoping that we 5 could focus it a bit more on things that specifically 6 relate to his testimony that is the bases for the 7 testimony and the activity he may have done. 8 That's just a suggestion. 9 MR. COUSINS: How is my question ambiguous when 10 I said to the witness to please give me all research 11 that relate to anything that's going to form the basis 12 of your opinion, how is that ambiguous? 13 MR. HYDE: Perhaps I'm just trying to clarify 14 what that is. 15 You may go ahead and ask your questions. 16 BY MR. COUSINS: 17 Q Do you understand my question, Dr. Dzurik? 18 A Yeah. The problem I have, though, is that it's 19 hard to sort out what's related to my testimony here and 20 what's not in terms of years of accumulation of doing 21 different projects. None of them very direct, it's just 22 part of an education process. 23 Q Why don't we do this then. List three or four 24 projects for me and I'm going to go through them, I'm 25 trying to make sure I get as clear and as organized a 24 1 record as I can and then when we do get to the documents 2 that you presented, at that point you can tell me how those 3 opinions that you have come up with relate to different 4 research projects that you have done. Is that fair? 5 A Okay, we will try to pursue that and see how it 6 works. 7 Q You had said the northwest Florida project, 1984 8 to 1986? 9 A Yeah. That dealt with water demand and water 10 policies, pricing policies. Frankly, I think that's a very 11 tangential relationship, if any. 12 Q What would be the next research project that you 13 were involved with? 14 A Research relating to the article on Evolution of 15 Planning Theory and Practice. A general literature search 16 in the general trend in planning and how it relates to 17 actual planning processes and practice of planning. That 18 deals with what different people say are appropriate 19 procedures in planning, what works, what doesn't work. 20 Q Now, don't feel a need, Doctor, to go ahead and 21 list all research off your C.V. just to list it, I'm really 22 just trying to -- it's the first time I'm meeting you, I'm 23 trying to get a feel for who you are, what you do, where 24 you have been, that's the purpose here. 25 Could you give me the date for that last 25 1 research project? 2 A '85, '86. 3 Q Where was that project done? 4 A That was at FSU. 5 Q Were the results of those two projects 6 published? 7 A Yes, published as articles. 8 Q Even though it might be in your C.V., what were 9 the dates respectively for the publications of each of 10 those research results? 11 A The last one on Evolution of Planning Theory and 12 Practice, December of '86. 13 Water Use and Public Policy is 1984. 14 One other that I think might be most related and 15 this also is tangential, is a consulting report I had done 16 for the Corps of Engineers' Mobile district. 17 Q Was that 1983, sir? 18 A Which one? 19 Q The report for the Corps of Engineers. 20 A Oh, no, that's 1980. The title of that is a 21 series of reports called the Northwest Florida Water 22 Resources Study. 23 Q Dr. Dzurik, did you prepare a proposal in 1983 24 for the Jacksonville Corps of Engineers for a project? 25 A No, never proposed anything for Jacksonville. 26 1 Q Do you belong to any professional organizations, 2 Dr. Dzurik? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Which organizations are those? 5 A American Society of Civil Engineers, American 6 Water Resources Association, Association of Environmental 7 Engineering Professors. 8 Q You are reading from your C.V., Dr. Dzurik, you 9 have not joined any new organizations since the printing of 10 this C.V.? 11 A No. 12 Q Along those lines, is this curriculum vitae 13 current and accurate? 14 A To my knowledge, it is, yes. 15 Q Have you ever had any of your privileges or 16 memberships suspended or removed for any reason? 17 A No, I haven't. 18 Q Now we are going to get to the document that you 19 produced. 20 MR. COUSINS: I would like to have this document 21 marked as Dzurik Exhibit 2. 22 (Dzurik Exhibit 2 marked for identification.) 23 BY MR. COUSINS: 24 Q Dr. Dzurik, I'm going to hand you documents 25 which have been marked as Dzurik Exhibit Number 2 and I 27 1 want you to please identify those documents for me. 2 A The first set is what I had written giving my 3 evaluation or opinion of the SWIM plan, as requested by the 4 attorney. 5 Attached to that are excerpts from seven books 6 that I referenced in my opinion. Those excerpts are 7 essentially the title page and the copy of a page or two 8 that was directly related to what I had written in my 9 testimony, or in my opinion, rather. 10 Q Dr. Dzurik, when did you prepare the written 11 portion? 12 A The written portion over the past two weeks, but 13 I actually finished it up Tuesday night. 14 Q Dr. Dzurik, when did you become aware that you 15 would be giving deposition testimony on the 18th and 19th 16 of February, 1993? 17 A I don't recall specifically when those dates 18 were given, perhaps mid-January, I really don't know for 19 sure. 20 Q At that time did you know that you were to 21 provide all documents that you were going to rely on? 22 A No, I didn't. 23 Q When did you come to find that out, sir, that 24 you needed to provide documents? 25 A Speaking of those that you have in your hand? 28 1 Q Or any documents. 2 A All of these supporting documents, just in the 3 past two days. 4 Q How did you come to that knowledge? 5 A Through Mr. Hyde. 6 Q Was this written portion of, I guess we can call 7 this the "Opinion of Everglades SWIM Plan", as it's titled, 8 by A. Dzurik, dated 2/93, was this prepared specifically 9 for this deposition? 10 A Yes. 11 MR. HYDE: Let me just make a statement for the 12 record here. When I received the notice of taking 13 deposition, which was dated February 1st, and even 14 prior to that time, we had not intended to produce any 15 information relating to Dr. Dzurik's deposition 16 because there was nothing to produce. In talking to 17 Dr. Dzurik last week and as a result of my prior 18 experience in depositions, I felt that it would be 19 helpful to provide a report for the deposition that 20 would help better focus just what the testimony would 21 be about. When Dr. Dzurik prepared that report for me 22 and discussed the things that he would be putting in 23 it, I recognized that it would be -- there would be 24 some texts being cited and I felt at that point it 25 would be very good to get a copy of excerpts from the 29 1 texts so that everybody could at least have them 2 available to them. Again, the scope of that testimony 3 was not even determined until last week and Dr. Dzurik 4 labored mightily to get me a report and he did in fact 5 get me a report which we got yesterday afternoon. 6 That's when I took the immediate steps to transmit it 7 to all the affected parties for their review. 8 It's intended really to be a summary of what his 9 testimony is. One could easily have just said there 10 is nothing to report or nothing to produce and just 11 let you ask questions about it and he could have told 12 you what his opinions are. I think this was really 13 just intended as an aid for the testimony rather than 14 a document that really needed to be produced. Ideally 15 it could have been produced at a much earlier date, 16 but it wasn't even determined until relatively 17 recently that a report of this nature was even 18 necessary for this deposition. 19 BY MR. COUSINS: 20 Q Dr. Dzurik, the excerpts from the seven books as 21 you have testified to that accompany your opinion, written 22 opinion, do you have the copies of those publications? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q Do you have them with you presently? 25 A Yes, I do. 30 1 Q Could you please take them out, sir? 2 A (Witness complies.) 3 Q Would this be the extent of all the documents 4 that you would rely on and have based your opinion on? 5 A Yes. Other than the SWIM plan documents. 6 Q Were there any records that you wanted to look 7 at but didn't have an opportunity to take a look at? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you feel that you had adequate time to 10 prepare your opinion in this matter? 11 A I honestly think there is never adequate time. 12 Q Needless to say, you feel comfortable today with 13 presenting your opinion? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. HYDE: His opinions are final, we are not 16 equivocating on anything. There have been some 17 witnesses that have been deposed so far that have not 18 reached all of their opinions, the U.S. has deposed 19 some and I think we may have actually deposed some, 20 too, and there's going to be a need to depose them at 21 a later date to deal with those things, but for 22 purposes of this deposition and purposes of the final 23 hearing, Dr. Dzurik's opinions are indeed final. 24 BY MR. COUSINS: 25 Q Did you rely on any kind of oral information, 31 1 for instance, speaking with colleagues -- 2 A No. 3 Q -- regarding coming up with your opinion? 4 A No. 5 Q Dr. Dzurik, I understand you probably can 6 anticipate my question, but for the court reporter 7 sometimes it's difficult for her to try to get the two of 8 us down at once, so if you can just wait until I finish. 9 Sometimes I may not speak very quickly, but I want to make 10 sure she gets everything down and you understand my 11 question. 12 What I would like to do then is to head right 13 towards your opinion and take a look at it. Let's take a 14 one minute break off the record. 15 (Record paused briefly.) 16 BY MR. COUSINS: 17 Q Dr. Dzurik, could you just go ahead and list the 18 seven books, the titles of those books that you relied on 19 the excerpts? 20 A What I'm going to do is just read them off as I 21 have them in front of me. 22 Q Also when you do that, could you try to give as 23 complete of a bibliography as you can, for instance, title, 24 publisher, date? 25 A Um-hum. Water Management Technology and 32 1 Institutions, by Warren Viessman, Jr. and Claire Welty, 2 Harper & Row, Publishers, 1985. 3 Principles of Water Resources Planning, by Alvin 4 S. Goodman, published by Prentice-Hall, 1984. 5 Water Resources Planning, by Neil S. Grigg, 6 published by McGraw-Hill, 1985. 7 Water Resource Planning and Development, by 8 Margaret S. Petersen, published by Prentice-Hall, 1984. 9 Water Resources Planning and Management, by Otto 10 J. Helweg, published by John Wiley & Sons in 1985. 11 Water Resources Planning, by Andrew Dzurik, 12 published by Rowman & Littlefield in 1990. 13 Last, Environmental Planning and Decision 14 Making, by Leonard Ortolano, published by John Wiley & 15 Sons, 1984. 16 Q Thank you, Dr. Dzurik. 17 Do you consider these documents, these books 18 that you have listed, as authoritative, useful and 19 persuasive? 20 A Yes, yes, I do. 21 Q And generally relied upon in the industry? 22 A I hope so, yes. 23 Q Do you know of any publications that are out 24 there right now and that are presently in print, that you 25 might have had an opportunity to read the manuscript, that 33 1 you find to be authoritative in this subject? 2 A To my knowledge, these are all the books on 3 water resources planning in the past decade, other than 4 more specific types which deal with mathematical modeling 5 or water resources in Australia, something like that. I 6 don't think those things are relevant. 7 Q There's not a lot of books? 8 A No. 9 Q We might have touched on this before, but just 10 so I can get a clear record of this answer, what was the 11 task that you were asked to do? 12 A For this case? 13 Q Right, for this case. 14 A Review the SWIM plan with regards to its 15 adequacy or quality in terms of the planning process from a 16 planning standpoint. 17 Q According to your attorney, you have finished 18 that and your opinions are going to be final? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you have occasion to go beyond what you were 21 requested to do? 22 A No, not to my knowledge. 23 Q Now, in an analysis of the SWIM plan and 24 comparison, I gather that you had occasion to review the 25 SWIM plan? 34 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you recall how many hours you spent on 3 reviewing this SWIM plan? The SWIM plan I'm referring to 4 is the Surface Water Improvement and Management Plan for 5 the Everglades, Planning Document, March 13, 1992. 6 A I would say at least 25 to 30 hours. 7 Q Dr. Dzurik, you would say you are pretty 8 comfortable then with the content of that plan as it 9 relates to your testimony today? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Dr. Dzurik, from looking at the document you 12 provided to us through your attorney yesterday evening, 13 there's some note there that you had occasion to look, as I 14 believe, at earlier SWIM plans, is that true, did you have 15 opportunity to look at earlier drafts of the SWIM plan? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Which drafts did you have occasion to look at? 18 A 1990. 19 Q Did you review the -- I'm referring back now to 20 the March 13, 1992 plan, you said you spent roughly 25 21 hours on it, did you review the entire plan, even though it 22 might not have complete relevance to your testimony? 23 A Pretty much so. Parts of it I just skimmed 24 through, that I was not much concerned with as far as 25 planning aspects. 35 1 Q Did you have opportunity, Dr. Dzurik, to look 2 through the supporting information documents and also the 3 appendices to the March 13, 1992 Surface Water Improvement 4 and Management Plan for the Everglades? 5 A Yes. 6 Q So at the time that you reference, would that be 7 inclusive of reviewing all the three documents that I 8 mentioned? 9 A That's right. 10 Q In that time period were you able to go through 11 each of the three documents to your satisfaction to render 12 your opinion today? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Why don't you give me the benefit of your 15 knowledge as to district regulatory programs? 16 MR. HYDE: I would object to the form of the 17 question. Are you speaking generically as to what he 18 knows about what the water management does or are you 19 talking about regulatory rules? 20 MR. COUSINS: I'll rephrase it. 21 BY MR. COUSINS: 22 Q Let me first start off with this question. Do 23 you know what a district regulatory program is? 24 A That phrase as such, no. 25 Q Is it the way I'm phrasing it or is it you just 36 1 don't have any knowledge of those words put together? 2 A I don't know of something called a district 3 regulatory program. 4 Q So you have never been involved in one? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you have any knowledge regarding an EAA 7 regulatory program? 8 MR. HYDE: I'm going to object to the form of 9 the question. You're asking him EAA, in fact, that 10 should be Everglades Agricultural Area. Some of us 11 are not as familiar with the jargon as others. 12 BY MR. COUSINS: 13 Q Are you familiar with the Everglades 14 Agricultural Area regulatory program? 15 A No. 16 Q Just so you will understand, Dr. Dzurik, I'm 17 just really going through to make sure, even though I know 18 your attorney said that you are going to testify and give 19 opinions on certain areas, I just want to exclude certain 20 areas so then we will not have to visit them later on. I'm 21 not trying to quiz you on things and then go back and say I 22 thought you didn't know that. 23 Have you ever heard of the term best management 24 plan? 25 A Best managing? 37 1 Q Best management plan. 2 A No, not best management plan. I have heard of 3 best management practices. 4 Q Have you ever heard of best management 5 practices? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Have you ever heard of it referred to as BMP? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What is your knowledge of BMP's? 10 A My knowledge is that I interpret it as a set of 11 procedures, rules, how resources are managed, directed 12 towards improving or maintaining water quality. 13 Q What is your basis of that knowledge? 14 A Partly through like teaching, partly through 15 working with people working at DER that would talk to my 16 classes. 17 MR. HYDE: May I ask for a clarification as to 18 what you intend by the term BMP? BMP is a rather 19 generic term that can apply to a host of different 20 situations or are we talking about BMP specifically 21 relating to the Everglades Agricultural Area? 22 MR. COUSINS: What I want to do, first of all, 23 if the doctor had never heard of the term at all, I 24 wasn't going to continue, but since he has, my next 25 questions are going to be more focused towards how or 38 1 whether he has had any involvement with BMP as it 2 relates to the EAA. 3 BY MR. COUSINS: 4 Q You now understand what the EAA is? 5 A (Witness nods head affirmatively.) 6 Q I'm sorry, had you finished what you were saying 7 before? 8 A Yes. Generally my interpretation of BMP's is 9 ways to do things best to minimize any kind of negative 10 effects on water quality. Just a very, very loose or vague 11 term as I have heard it used. 12 Q You said your experience has been through 13 teaching and then I didn't catch what you said? 14 A People at DER, employees here who would give 15 guest lectures in my classes and mention BMP's. 16 Q I want to delve into a little bit about the 17 teaching area. How through your teaching have you become 18 aware of BMP's, other than the lectures that you might have 19 sat in on that were presented by DER? 20 A Reading literature on water quality, water 21 management. I have taught courses in water planning, water 22 resources planning, where this term would come up. 23 Q Who were the guest speakers, if you can recall, 24 from DER who spoke? 25 A Eric Livingston. 39 1 Q Who is Mr. Livingston? 2 A He is the -- I think his position is head of the 3 storm water section. 4 Q Why was Mr. Livingston speaking to your class 5 regarding BMP's? 6 A It was a class dealing with storm water runoff, 7 with detention, retention basins. He talked about that in 8 the context of managing storm water. 9 Q Do you recall when that lecture was? 10 A The most recent I would say was September '92. 11 Q You use the term most recent, so I gather that 12 Dr. Livingston, Mr. Livingston, I'm not sure if he is a 13 doctor, has had occasion to speak to your class on more 14 than one occasion? 15 A Um-hum. 16 Q How many times roughly? 17 A I think twice. Same course, two different 18 times, essentially the same material two different times. 19 Q Have you ever been involved in the preparation 20 of any BMP standards? 21 A No. 22 Q I picked up this term water resource planning 23 concepts and I'm thinking I picked that up from documents I 24 received in trying to prepare for this deposition, are you 25 familiar with that term, water resource planning concepts? 40 1 A I'm familiar with the term water resources 2 planning. 3 Q Do you know what a water resource planning 4 concept is or are? I know it sounds like a big, broad 5 question? 6 A As I interpret it, I like to think that I do, 7 yes. 8 Q Well, that really reads up to my next question 9 is have you ever been involved in the planning of any water 10 resource planning concepts? 11 A With the planning -- I don't understand your 12 question. 13 Q You seem to be stuck on the word planning, let 14 me see if I can ask it again and see if you understand 15 that, if not, we'll move on. 16 Have you ever been involved in the planning of 17 water resource concepts? 18 A No. 19 Q In the documents that you have provided that we 20 have listed here as Dzurik Exhibit 2, do you discuss 21 remedies? 22 MR. HYDE: I'm going to object to the form 23 unless there is some definition of what you mean by 24 remedies. 25 41 1 BY MR. COUSINS: 2 Q If you have a basis of understanding how to 3 answer that, go ahead. 4 A I don't think I use the word, I don't recall 5 using the word remedies. 6 Q I know, Doctor, that you have listed the seven 7 books that you relied on in forming your opinion and also 8 we discussed your C.V. and some of your background. Did 9 anyone else assist in the preparation of this document that 10 is marked Dzurik Exhibit Number 2? 11 A No. 12 Q When you say no, this goes quick. 13 This is something I would like you to do, and 14 keep in mind throughout the deposition, when we start 15 getting into this document, if there are terms just as I in 16 error used the term EAA without describing what that meant, 17 or BMP, if there is anything in here that might just be 18 specific to the area that you are most knowledgeable in and 19 there might be some confusion to a lay person like myself 20 as to what that term means, you might want to highlight 21 that for me. I'll be going through and asking you 22 questions, not to ask you as to the type of words you use, 23 but maybe its meaning in the context of your opinion. 24 I haven't had an occasion to look through those 25 books, but were there any photographs or any clippings from 42 1 newspapers or anything other than written work that you 2 reviewed in that document that you relied on? 3 A No. 4 Q Your knowledge of the EAA and the areas involved 5 in this SWIM plan, is that basically from -- let me strike 6 that. 7 Your knowledge of the EAA and the areas involved 8 in the Everglades SWIM plan, is that based from your 9 reading of the SWIM plan and supporting documents, and 10 specifically what I'm talking about is the geographical 11 location? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you type this up yourself, referring to 14 Dzurik Number 2? 15 A Of course. 16 Q And your attorney stated and I just want you to 17 state for the record if it's so, that you did not do any 18 independent empirical research or gathered any data in 19 preparation for your opinion? 20 A That's right. 21 Q Dr. Dzurik, again it sounds like we are trying 22 to beat this thing to death, but many experts at times will 23 use various different areas and means to come up with their 24 opinions, I just want to make sure that there is nothing 25 else that you have done, I'll give you a moment to think 43 1 about it, no assistance from anyone, you haven't looked at 2 any documents or done any experiments or anything other 3 than what you have presented here, to come up with your 4 opinion? 5 A I think that's an accurate statement. 6 Q All right, we're at Dzurik Number 2, I want you 7 to, after I ask you questions on it, to help us go through 8 this. It's roughly -- the pages aren't numbered, but I 9 counted 11 pages, if I counted properly, maybe you can go 10 ahead and count them for us. For the rest of the 11 deposition and except for some cleanup questions that I may 12 have at the end, we are going to go through your opinion 13 and I want you to describe in as much detail as you can, 14 your opinion, and I will ask you questions as to what you 15 based it on, what documents here specifically relate to 16 certain parts of your opinion, if any, just have you teach 17 class, tell me about what you think about the Everglades 18 SWIM plan as it relates to your designated area of 19 testimony? 20 A I count 10 pages. 21 MR. HYDE: That's what I count, too. In fact, 22 for ease of communication and for the purpose of the 23 record, it might be useful for all of us to just 24 number the pages. I'm sorry, we could have done that 25 and didn't do it previously. 44 1 BY MR. COUSINS: 2 Q Could you look at this, Dr. Dzurik, Exhibit 3 Number 2 and make sure that my copy is in the same order as 4 your copy? 5 A (Witness complies.) Yes, they are in the same 6 order. 7 Q Thank you. 8 Could you please state for me what your opinion 9 or opinions are. I'm asking you this in this form because 10 I want to list them out first and then I actually want to 11 go through each page of this with you to determine how you 12 have reached those opinions. 13 A Could you clarify that question? Do you want me 14 to essentially summarize what I have written here as far as 15 what my opinions are? 16 Q Right. Just list, if there is a place here 17 where you can point to these are my opinions as listed or 18 just go ahead and list them for me. Again, most of this is 19 just due to, even though it's not a long document, I just 20 want to make sure that in my reading of this at twilight 21 last night, I picked up on what I gather to be your 22 opinions. 23 A Looking first at the set of books, my opinion is 24 there's a fairly consistent pattern of water resources 25 planning as far as the steps in the planning process. One 45 1 that I focused on with regard to the SWIM plan is 2 identification of the problem and formulation of 3 alternatives. 4 Q Dr. Dzurik, are you making reference to a 5 publication based upon your first opinion or is this a 6 continuation of your first opinion? 7 A It's a continuation, I'm not referring to any 8 one publication. 9 Q Just so I am accurate here, so far you have said 10 there's a fairly consistent pattern of water resources 11 planning and then that's when I thought you started to 12 refer to a publication, so if you can just continue. 13 A Consistent pattern of water resources planning 14 process. In particular, I looked at problem identification 15 and formulation of alternatives. With regard to the SWIM 16 plan, I see those as the major shortcomings. I also 17 identify lack of an environmental impact statement. 18 Q Dr. Dzurik, not to cut you off, but would this 19 be a second opinion? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Lack of environmental impact statement? 22 A Um-hum. 23 Q You have referred to that in your document as 24 EIS? 25 A Yes. 46 1 Q Is EIS the way that this is normally referred to 2 in publications? 3 A Yes, it is. Those are in summary the findings 4 that I deal with throughout this document that I prepared. 5 Q So, Dr. Dzurik, if I am correct, you have listed 6 two opinions? 7 A Yes. A third one which follows from that is 8 essentially the idea, I use a phrase here, putting the cart 9 before the horse in coming up with solutions, but this 10 stems from not adequately identifying the problem or 11 formulating alternatives. 12 Q Because this is very important for me and for 13 the record, I'm going to attempt to list as I have written 14 down here quickly, what you have stated as your opinion, 15 and then if I, when I speak to you regarding those 16 opinions, have made an error, tell me and I'll clarify it, 17 because this is going to be the basis for the rest of our 18 deposition time today. 19 Your first opinion started off almost, I gather, 20 as a statement. There is a fairly consistent pattern of 21 water resources planning process regarding the problem of 22 identification and formulation of alternatives to the SWIM 23 plan. Have I stated that accurately, Doctor? 24 A I think you need to put a period after 25 consistent pattern of water resources planning process, 47 1 period. Maybe I should elaborate before we get to the next 2 one, because depending on which book you read or which 3 article, there might be eight or nine or 10 different steps 4 in the planning process. I focused on those two there, 5 problem identification and alternatives as the ones that 6 are relevant to my opinions about the SWIM plan. 7 Q Let me try it again then. So your opinion is 8 that there is a fairly consistent pattern of water 9 resources planning process? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Would that be a colon? 12 A Period. 13 Q Then the next sentence would be? 14 A If you want to make a complete sentence, within 15 that planning process, two steps are especially relevant. 16 Those are -- 17 Q Those are? 18 A Problem identification and formulation of 19 alternatives. 20 Q The first time you mentioned it, I think you 21 used the word SWIM plan, but we're not going to use that 22 now? I think the way I had it first was a fairly 23 consistent pattern of water resources planning process 24 regarding problem identification and formulation of 25 alternatives in the SWIM plan. I don't need to have it 48 1 there, but I just want to make sure. 2 MR. HYDE: I think he said earlier these were 3 the major problems with the Everglades SWIM plan. 4 That's, I think, the relationship of that phrase to 5 what he has offered as his general opinions. 6 BY MR. COUSINS: 7 Q Your first opinion then reads, a fairly 8 consistent pattern of water resources planning process. 9 Within that planning process, two steps are especially 10 relevant. These are problem identification and formulation 11 of alternatives. 12 A Yes, relevant to my opinion about the SWIM plan. 13 That's what relevance we are talking about. 14 Q Let's try the second one. What I wrote down, 15 and again this is definitely subject to your correction, is 16 that there is a lack of environmental impact statement? 17 A That's right. 18 Q Would that be -- is there any more elaboration 19 you want to put on that or is it lack of environmental 20 impact statement in the SWIM plan? 21 A On the SWIM plan, lack of environmental impact 22 statement on the SWIM plan. 23 Q The third opinion was what you said really 24 flowed from the prior two was, I guess it's kind of a quote 25 I read there on the first page, putting the cart before the 49 1 horse, not adequately identifying the problem before 2 formulating alternatives? 3 A (Witness nods head affirmatively.) 4 Q I know you know what that means, but could you 5 explain that in layman's terms for me? I mean, that may be 6 too layman, putting the cart before the horse, I'm not 7 quite sure I understand it. 8 A With respect to the SWIM plan or just in 9 general? 10 Q Right, just in stating your opinion like an 11 examination answer, make believe I'm the professor. If you 12 could just state to me, you say your third opinion is, I 13 have got it written down as putting the cart before the 14 horse, not adequately identifying the problem before 15 formulating alternatives. I would like you to -- 16 A I might rephrase that last line, not adequately 17 identifying the problem nor identifying alternatives. 18 To follow up on your question of explain the 19 cart before the horse, my reading of the SWIM plan is that 20 it comes up with solutions and prescriptions without having 21 adequately shown the problem identification or formulation 22 of alternatives that would lead to those solutions. It's 23 solutions with those other steps missing. 24 Q Dr. Dzurik, would it be fair for me to then say 25 that your third opinion would be that the SWIM plan comes 50 1 up with solutions without adequately identifying the 2 problem nor formulating alternatives? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. COUSINS: We have been here an hour and a 5 half, I don't know if you want to take a break. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I could use some coffee. 7 (Brief recess taken.) 8 BY MR. COUSINS: 9 Q Dr. Dzurik, going back on the record after 10 taking a short break, before we had taken a break we had 11 gone through listing what your opinions were and I went 12 back to double check to make sure that I had accurately 13 transcribed and understood what you said that your opinions 14 were. Now what I would like to do is to go through each of 15 those opinions starting with number one and for you to give 16 me the basis for those opinions. Now, I know that Dzurik 17 Exhibit Number 2 that you have here purports to do that 18 but, if you could, in conjunction with describing or 19 explaining to me the basis of that opinion, point to the 20 specific pages or sections in Dzurik Number 2 and also 21 point to the publications. I'm going to let you go and 22 explain it to me one at a time and then when I have 23 questions and I don't understand, I will interject after 24 you finish and ask you to clarify those areas. So if you 25 can start off with your first opinion by stating that 51 1 opinion once again and then explaining it for me? 2 A The first one was about having a consistent 3 planning process identified by a number of authors of books 4 and water resources planning. I think I followed up on 5 that by identifying problem identification and formulation 6 of alternatives as the steps that are inadequately treated 7 in the SWIM plan. Relating to that, I'll identify six 8 books here, these are all mentioned in pages 2, 3 and 4. 9 What I have done is to go into those books and just quote 10 or take small excerpts related to the planning process. 11 These are all books on water resources planning and they 12 give various authors' interpretations of how planning 13 should be done. 14 The first one I have identified is Otto Helweg, 15 Water Resources Planning and Management. It speaks in 16 Chapter 1 of the rational planning model, which is what he 17 followed in the whole book as far as setting up the format 18 for expounding further in writing his book. His table 1-1 19 in that book talks about a seven step process. First, 20 formulating goals and objectives. Secondly, completing a 21 plan of study. Third, collecting and analyzing data. Four, 22 formulating alternatives. Fifth, selecting a plan. Six, 23 implementing a plan. Seven, conducting post analysis. 24 Without going tediously one book at a time, 25 unless you want me to do it that way, I would quickly refer 52 1 to the other books on the same issue of the planning 2 process or planning model. 3 Q Before we do that, Doctor, maybe we can do 4 this. So far I think we are doing wonderful, but if we can 5 let me ask you some questions regarding the first book that 6 you have mentioned and maybe if you can pull that book and 7 maybe show me, for instance, you describe a table 1-1, if 8 you need to refer to it, since I don't know specifically 9 what the book says or have any true basis for formulating a 10 particular question, I'm going to ask you to describe what 11 a rational planning model is as you referred to earlier in 12 your testimony. You said that that model was the model 13 used by Helweg in his book, Water Resources Planning and 14 Management. 15 A The term rational planning model is a common 16 phrase used to identify an orderly and logical step in 17 planning. Realistically without referring to literature or 18 anything else, that plan is nothing more than using some 19 common sense in solving problems. Rational planning model 20 tries to formulate it in terms of a series of steps 21 identifying what it is you want to do by way of goals and 22 objectives, getting information on what the problems are 23 that you are addressing, setting out some solutions or 24 alternative solutions, and then evaluating that in terms of 25 making the decision on what is the best alternative to go 53 1 with. That's generally the concept of rational planning 2 model. 3 Q If I understand correctly rational planning 4 model, this is not a model that was particularly developed 5 by Mr. Helweg? 6 A No, right. 7 Q This is just, what would you call it, is it a 8 term of art or is it just a standard term in the industry? 9 A I would say it's just a standard term in the 10 planning industry. 11 Without relevance to our deposition, I have just 12 a few comments. There are other planning models, take the 13 extreme of socialism, whatever else, just different ways of 14 dealing with problems when they get called upon in the 15 planning literature, but that's not what we are talking 16 about here. 17 Q You made reference to table 1-1? 18 A Um-hum. 19 Q Is that a table of statistics and numbers or 20 what does that table comprise? 21 MR. HYDE: I think it's in the excerpts that you 22 have with you. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't have the table there. 24 MR. BARTELL: I can't seem to find it in ours. 25 MR. HYDE: He is saying it's actually not there, 54 1 I was mistaken in that regard. 2 A What I did, on page 2 of my opinion I have told 3 you what was extracted from table 1. Table 1 is just a 4 number of words that just tell us what the rational 5 planning model is as far as the planning model and steps in 6 the planning process. 7 BY MR. COUSINS: 8 Q You are referring to page 2 of Dzurik Number 2? 9 A Of my opinion, yes. 10 MR. HYDE: Did you want a copy of this? Page 2 11 is a restatement of what the table is. 12 BY MR. COUSINS: 13 Q Dr. Dzurik, is it a restatement verbatim as to 14 the table? 15 A It's part of it. The part that I left out is a 16 column that gives more words explaining what each of those 17 terms are. 18 MR. COUSINS: Yes, we can mark that during the 19 break. 20 BY MR. COUSINS: 21 Q Dr. Dzurik, you were in the process of 22 explaining the basis of your first opinion. You had 23 started off by talking about the books, six books that 24 related to it, which are found on pages 2, 3 and 4 on 25 Dzurik Number 2. You just discussed the rational planning 55 1 model and I don't want to ask you these questions to add to 2 confusion, but maybe through your process of explaining, if 3 you will pick up on just explaining these things, I may not 4 even have to ask you a question, but can you explain how 5 this relates, this rational planning model, how that 6 relates to the opinion that you have set forth here in this 7 document, Dzurik Number 2? 8 A Yes. The rational planning model in any of 9 these books and also as I use it, is my way of looking at 10 planning and planning documents that relates to the SWIM 11 plan in terms of my opinion of how that was done and what 12 is shown in the document as a plan. Do you want me to 13 expound further on that? 14 Q If you could. 15 A As far as those other opinions or conclusions 16 that I have drawn, the rational planning model is a logical 17 step and this is the way I and most water resources 18 planners would tend to do things or do plans, therefore I 19 look for plans to follow that set of procedures and if they 20 don't, then it seems to me that there is something missing 21 or maybe it was not done properly. 22 Q Your first opinion is a fairly consistent 23 pattern of water resources planning process. Within that 24 planning process, two steps are especially relevant. These 25 are problem identification and formulation of alternatives. 56 1 This, of course, is relevant to your opinion of the SWIM 2 plan. 3 The rational planning model has seven steps to 4 it? 5 A According to the Helweg table. 6 Q Is it your opinion, Doctor, that the parties 7 responsible for forming the SWIM plan did not use a 8 rational planning model? 9 A That's my opinion. 10 Q What do you base that on? 11 A What I have seen in the SWIM plan, 1992. 12 Q Specifically what did you see in the SWIM plan, 13 and if you need it to review, we have got it here. 14 A It's what I didn't see. I didn't see any 15 identification of alternatives or evaluation of 16 alternatives. 17 Q So your testimony is you didn't see two of the 18 steps that normally are involved in the rational planning 19 model? 20 A Right. 21 Q So is it also your testimony that you did see 22 goals -- 23 A Um-hum. 24 Q -- in the SWIM plan. You did see a plan in the 25 SWIM plan? 57 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you see empirical data in the SWIM plan? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You saw a process by which that plan would be 5 implemented in the SWIM plan? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you see any post analysis in the SWIM plan? 8 A I saw procedures laid out for doing post 9 analysis and post analysis in reality is doing something 10 after a plan is carried out. 11 Q Were you satisfied with the items that I have 12 just listed, the goals, the plans, the collecting the data, 13 implementing the plan, and post analysis, as described in 14 the SWIM plan? 15 A Am I satisfied with them as in SWIM plan? 16 Q Yes. 17 A To the extent I'm thinking of your question, 18 yes, I would say that's reasonable. 19 Q You also testified that in the SWIM plan there 20 was no identification of alternatives or evaluations of 21 such alternatives. Independent of the SWIM plan, have you 22 had occasion to look at alternatives or identify 23 alternatives? 24 A You are talking about other plans, totally 25 different documents? 58 1 Q Right. 2 A Yes, sure. 3 Q What are those? 4 A Depends on the project. 5 Q No, I'm specifically talking about the 6 Everglades. 7 A Oh, no. 8 Q I guess I'm trying to understand, Doctor,