2 STATE OF FLORIDA

DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE

4 OF FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural CASE NOS. 92-3038

Cooperative Marketing Association; 92-3039

5 ROTH FARMS, INC.; and WEDGWORTH 92-3040

FARMS, INC.,

6 and

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.;

7 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION;

and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC.,

8 and

FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE

9 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS;

W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC.;

10 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC.,

11 Petitioners,

12 vs.

13 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT

DISTRICT, an Agency of the State

14 of Florida,

15 Respondent,

16 and

17 MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF

FLORIDA; the UNITED STATES OF

18 AMERICA; and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT

OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and

19 the FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION,

20 Intervenors.

__________________________________/

22 DEPOSITION OF ANDREW DZURIK

100 Salem Court

25 Tallahassee, Florida 32301

904/878-2221

5 ___________________________________________________________

6 DEPOSITION OF: ANDREW DZURIK

TAKEN AT THE INSTANCE OF: Intervenor FDER

9 DATE: Thursday, February 18, 1993

TIME: Commenced at 10:00 a.m.

11 Concluded at 4:25 p.m.

LOCATION: Dept. of Environmental Reg.

13 2600 Blair Stone Road

Tallahassee, Florida

15 REPORTED BY: TERRY WILHELMI, CSR

Notary Public in and for the

16 State of Florida at Large

___________________________________________________________

1 APPEARANCES:

REPRESENTING THE FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE,

3 UNITED STATES SUGAR, and NEW HOPE SOUTH:

4 WILLIAM L. HYDE, ESQUIRE

Peeples, Earl & Blank

5 2l5 South Monroe Street

Suite 350

6 Tallahassee, Florida 32301

REPRESENTING THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER

8 MANAGEMENT DISTRICT:

9 PATRICK S. COUSINS, ESQUIRE

Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, Ltd.

10 4100 One Centrust Financial Center

100 S.E. Second Street

11 Miami, Florida 33l3l

REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

STEPHEN G. BARTELL, ESQUIRE

14 U.S. Department of Justice

60l Pennsylvania Avenue N.W.

15 Fifth Floor, Room 56l3

Washington, D.C. 20004

17 REPRESENTING THE DEPARTMENT OF

ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION:

KEITH C. HETRICK, ESQUIRE

19 DONNA LAPLANTE, ESQUIRE

Florida Dept. of Environmental Regulation

20 2600 Blair Stone Road

Tallahassee, Florida 32399-2400

22 * * * * *

I N D E X

WITNESS PAGE

ANDREW DZURIK

Direct Examination by Mr. Cousins 5

6 Cross Examination by Mr. Bartell 152

10 E X H I B I T S

11 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE

12 Dzurik l Curriculum Vitae 16

Dzurik 2 Dzurik's Opinion of SWIM Plan 26

13 Dzurik 3 9/2/83 Letter from A.J. Salem 154

18 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 157

1 STIPULATIONS

2 The following deposition of ANDREW DZURIK was taken

3 on oral examination, pursuant to notice, for purposes of

4 discovery, and for use as evidence, and for other uses and

5 purposes as may be permitted by the applicable and

6 governing rules. All objections, except as to the form of

7 the question, are reserved until final hearing in this

8 cause; and reading and signing is not waived.

9 * * *

10 Thereupon,

11 ANDREW DZURIK

12 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was

13 examined and testified as follows:

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. COUSINS:

16 Q Good morning, sir, my name is Patrick St. George

17 Cousins, I'm from the law firm of Popham, Haik, Schnobrich

18 & Kaufman, in Miami, Florida. Today we are going to go

19 through an exercise that's called a deposition and I would

20 first like to ask you whether you have ever been deposed

21 before?

22 A Um-hum, yes.

23 Q In light of that, I'm going to ask you some

24 questions later on about those depositions, but I'm going

25 to tell you what I call my rules for a deposition, which is

1 similar to any other activity, like baseball or football,

2 you have rules. I'm going to ask you questions and

3 hopefully you are going to give me answers. If for some

4 reason you don't have an answer to the question, just tell

5 me you don't have an answer. If I ask a question and you

6 don't understand it, tell me that and I will try to

7 rephrase the question. You may want to wait a brief second

8 before answering, because on occasion your attorney might

9 have an objection, which I hope he wouldn't, but he might,

10 and he needs to get that on the record. You also need to

11 remember, as you probably do know from your past deposition

12 experience, that you need to answer audibly, you need to

13 say yes or no, because the court reporter, even though she

14 is probably very good, is not often quick enough to catch

15 nods of heads or um-hums or huh-uhs. Do you understand

16 that, sir?

17 A Yes.

18 MR. HETRICK: Before we begin, at the outset

19 the Department would just like to place an objection

20 on the record.

21 Bill, we appreciate you supplying the opinions

22 of Mr. Dzurik and hopefully I'll be able to look

23 through these today and be able to adequately ask

24 questions on these, but we haven't -- I haven't had

25 time, I just got both of these documents this morning

1 and haven't had time to review them in much detail or

2 formulate any questions over them yet, so I'm going to

3 reserve the right on the record that to the extent

4 that we are not able to cover questions in this

5 deposition on these documents, that I can recall Mr.

6 Dzurik on specific questions on these documents having

7 to do with his opinions formulated.

8 MR. HYDE: Let me just note for the record that

9 I didn't actually obtain these documents myself until

10 yesterday afternoon at approximately 2:00 and at that

11 point I immediately instructed my secretary to start

12 faxing them to the various parties and I do believe

13 that we did get it faxed over yesterday afternoon and

14 I did try to call you to make sure that you did in

15 fact receive them. I apologize for the inconvenience

16 that was occasioned by this but, again, we were just

17 trying to get this over at the earliest possible

18 opportunity and I didn't receive it myself until

19 yesterday afternoon.

20 I would further note, too, that I think that a

21 review of the document that I provided to you is

22 really in essence a summary of the opinions that Mr.

23 Dzurik will be offering today at this proceeding.

24 It's not in the nature of what you would call original

25 data or anything like that and it's been provided to

1 everyone primarily as an aid in assisting in the

2 preparation of their questions and to give some focus

3 and format to this proceeding.

4 I understand your need to reserve your

5 objections and if there is any problem with that, we

6 will discuss what, if any, remedy we need to propose.

7 MR. COUSINS: Also for the record, I would also

8 like to note -- this is Patrick Cousins -- that I

9 received the documents roughly, I would say 6:00

10 yesterday evening, and I did have a conversation with

11 Mr. Hyde regarding the content of it before I received

12 it. He made the same statements that he made on

13 record earlier, but obviously it does pose a problem

14 in taking a deposition, even if the documents that

15 Attorney Hyde speak of are readily understandable,

16 there still wasn't time to adequately prepare to go

17 over that document.

18 Now, if we are done with that, we will get back

19 to our questioning.

20 MR. HYDE: One thing we might do, if at any

21 point you feel you need additional time, we have two

22 days scheduled for this, we could take a break or you

23 could just use the deposition itself as the way to

24 educate yourself about these documents. I think they

25 are fairly straight forward and I hope we can

1 accomplish it in that fashion but, again, I'll let you

2 all decide how best to handle this. We can address

3 the problems as they may arise.

4 I would also like to note for the record that I

5 have not unfortunately prepared a privilege list, but

6 there is only one document that would be on it anyway

7 and I will note for the record it is a December 10,

8 1992 letter from me to Mr. Dzurik, which basically

9 constitutes a letter agreement for the provision of

10 his professional services to the League. We believe

11 it to be attorney work product.

12 I had not even noticed until last night that the

13 District's notice of taking deposition wanted such a

14 document, at least the previous notices by other

15 parties haven't requested that, but in any event we

16 still believe it's a privileged document and will not

17 be providing it to you at this time. I think this is

18 a position that's consistent with that that's been

19 advanced by the United States, in that they are not

20 providing their contracts either.

21 I will, however, allow you to inquire into the

22 terms of the relationship, professional relationship,

23 between Mr. Dzurik and the League. For example, you

24 could ask, you know, rates of compensation, things of

25 that nature, what his kind of work is, but the

1 document goes beyond that in terms of outlining what

2 the relationship is between the law firm and Mr.

3 Dzurik.

4 MR. COUSINS: Okay, thank you.

5 BY MR. COUSINS:

6 Q Sir, could you please state your name for the

7 record?

8 A Andrew Albert Dzurik.

9 Q What is your address, sir?

10 A Home address is 209 Lakeshore Drive,

11 Tallahassee, Florida.

12 Q What is your professional address, sir?

13 A I am a professor at Florida A & M and Florida

14 State University College of Engineering.

15 Q Would that be the full mailing address, sir?

16 A Full mailing address would be Department of

17 Civil Engineering, P.O. Box 2175, Tallahassee 32316-2175.

18 Q I'm going to focus my initial questions towards

19 your curriculum vitae and what I would like, I know you are

20 very learned and you have many accomplishments here listed,

21 I'm going to go through the pattern and ask you so we can

22 have a clear record, let me ask you questions that will

23 relate to a broad area, but you might be able to just give

24 me highlights in those areas. For instance, if I ask you

25 about education, I don't need to know about grade school

1 and high school, just highlights.

2 Starting with that, what schools or training

3 courses have you attended?

4 A Bachelor's degree in civil engineering at

5 Valparaiso University, Master's in civil engineering at

6 Case Western Reserve, PhD in regional planning at Cornell.

7 Q Is that the extent of your educational

8 background?

9 A Formal education, yes. I have attended various

10 workshops and things of that sort.

11 Q Can you list for us maybe three main workshops

12 that you have attended?

13 A One by the American Society of Civil Engineers

14 on, I'm trying to think, it was roughly owning and managing

15 a consulting engineering business. A workshop at Colorado

16 State University on design of constructed wetlands for

17 wastewater treatment. Workshop at Georgia Tech on

18 experimental design. Probably more of the other workshops

19 I have been involved is on the teaching side of the thing,

20 rather than being a student.

21 Q Sir, you mentioned a workshop regarding the

22 wetlands, was that at Georgia Tech you said?

23 A Colorado State.

24 Q Colorado State, I'm sorry. Do you recall when

25 that was?

1 A Yes, summer of last year, '92.

2 Q What was your reason for going to that workshop?

3 A To learn about design of small wetlands for

4 wastewater treatment as part of my teaching and design of

5 water quality facilities, so essentially learning new

6 material or learning more about it.

7 Q Did you learn anything from that seminar that

8 would assist you in your deposition testimony today?

9 MR. HYDE: I would just like to note for the

10 record that Mr. Dzurik is not being offered as an

11 expert witness for wetlands generally or wastewater to

12 wetlands types of issues. He is offered as an expert

13 in basically water resources planning and his

14 testimony will be as to whether the Everglades SWIM

15 plan is an example of good planning as that term is

16 commonly understood within the profession. Mr. Dzurik

17 will not be offering testimony, for example, as to

18 treatment efficiencies of the storm water treatment

19 areas proposed in the plan or generally anything about

20 the storm water treatment area other than the fact of

21 their existence.

22 I just note that for the record in case that

23 might help you in framing your questions.

24 A My short answer would have been no, it didn't

25 really affect what I'm doing here.

1 BY MR. COUSINS:

2 Q What on-the-job training have you received?

3 A No on-the-job other than going to these

4 workshops, which is not really on-the-job.

5 Q Have you had occasion to be involved in actually

6 managing projects that you lecture or teach about?

7 A No. My experience has been in consulting or

8 taking a year off at different times to do things which I

9 might then refer to in teaching as an example, but very

10 indirect, not a direct relationship between my teaching and

11 that type of activity.

12 Q Do you have any special licenses or any special

13 certificates?

14 A I am a registered professional engineer in the

15 state of Florida.

16 Q Anything else?

17 A No.

18 Q Has your accreditation ever been questioned,

19 investigated or suspended?

20 A No.

21 Q Have you ever been sued?

22 A No.

23 Q You stated earlier that you have been deposed in

24 the past. What occasioned you to be deposed in the past?

25 A There's two that I have been involved with.

1 One was personal, just a divorce case in my own

2 situation, a deposition.

3 The other was not, as I think back, was not

4 really a deposition. I was involved in an administrative

5 hearing as an expert, but I don't recall that we had a

6 deposition in that.

7 Q What was the nature of that hearing?

8 A That was a medical waste, small medical waste

9 incinerator that I had done some work on, which actually

10 was a permit application at DER for an air quality permit.

11 Q How much of your present income is derived from

12 testifying or preparing for litigation?

13 A Prior to this case, none other than that air

14 pollution one.

15 Q How about since this case, sir?

16 A Percent of annual income?

17 Q Roughly.

18 A Five percent probably. That would be high

19 maybe.

20 Q How did you get involved in this particular

21 case?

22 A I was called as far as a possibility of being an

23 expert in water resources planning. I think that came

24 through a referral system of just knowing different people

25 in the university or different people knowing me.

1 Q Who contacted you?

2 A Mr. Hyde.

3 Q When did he contact you?

4 A Let's say perhaps October of '92, maybe

5 November.

6 Q What did he orally ask you to do at that time?

7 A Review the SWIM documents, SWIM plans with

8 regard to the planning procedure, the opinion whether it's

9 a good or bad water resources planning as far as my

10 expertise on planning.

11 Q Have you ever published any original work

12 regarding the topic that you are going to give deposition

13 testimony on today?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Could you give me the title of that work or

16 those works?

17 A The easiest one to identify is a book I had

18 written called Water Resources Planning.

19 MR. HYDE: Just note for the record that his

20 publications are listed on his C.V.

21 A Do you want more details, publisher, date, that

22 sort of thing?

23 BY MR. COUSINS:

24 Q Just a date, sir.

25 A 1990 publication date.

1 Q Could you briefly describe what that book

2 entails?

3 A A general overview of the water resources

4 planning process. It includes concepts of hydrology, water

5 quality, water supply, water resources law and

6 administration, planning itself as an activity, process of

7 planning, mathematical modeling as applied to water

8 resources planning, and then various applied aspects of

9 water resources planning, such as water supply, navigation,

10 river basin management, various topics that might come up

11 in planning.

12 Q Dr. Dzurik, are there any other documents that

13 you have published that are going to bear on your testimony

14 today?

15 A No. If any it would be just marginal, I had

16 written some articles related to the book, same types of

17 material just showing up as articles. I believe those are

18 listed on my C.V.

19 MR. COUSINS: I would like to have Dr. Dzurik's

20 C.V. marked as Dzurik Exhibit 1. I just have one copy

21 myself.

22 THE WITNESS: I have an extra copy.

23 (Dzurik Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)

24 BY MR. COUSINS:

25 Q Dr. Dzurik, you just handed me a copy of your

1 curriculum vitae and we just marked that as Dzurik Exhibit

2 No. 1. Could you please turn to the publication section of

3 your curriculum vitae, I'm sure you are familiar with it,

4 but for my benefit could you point to the publications that

5 are going to have a bearing on your presentation today?

6 A Towards the bottom of the page, Water Resources

7 Planning.

8 Q Which page are you referring to, sir?

9 A Page 3, the one that says Publications Since

10 1980.

11 Q Okay.

12 A The section on books, third item down, Water

13 Resources Planning, a chapter in a book published by the

14 American Society of Civil Engineers.

15 Then just below that, an article called

16 Socio-economic Considerations in Water Resources Planning

17 and the second article in that same listing is Legal

18 Aspects of Water Resources.

19 Those would be the only ones -- oh, go to the

20 next page under Articles, third item down, an article

21 called Evolution of Planning Theory and Practice. I would

22 say that's it. They are all very much related, same type

23 of information, same type of writing.

24 Q Excuse me, Doctor, when you say they are all

25 very much related, are you talking about the Evolution of

1 Planning Theory and Practice article being the one?

2 A Well, all of the ones I mentioned. The book

3 that I have, Water Resources Planning, incorporates a good

4 bit of what I had done there as individual articles.

5 Q So far you have listed four, three books and one

6 article, that assisted in forming the basis of your

7 testimony today?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Did you bring those documents along with you,

10 sir?

11 A I brought the book along. I did not bring the

12 articles because, as I said, essentially the book covers --

13 in my mind covers whatever would have been in there.

14 Q When you said you brought the book along, I

15 think I'm seeing three books?

16 A I'm sorry, the book that I wrote called Water

17 Resources Planning, the top of that list on Publications

18 Since 1980.

19 Q Now, is that the same book that's referenced as

20 the third item on books?

21 A No.

22 Q Did you bring -- which books have you brought,

23 Water Resources Planning?

24 A This is the book that I had written, I wrote the

25 whole book. The other articles are just chapters I had

1 written that are in somebody else's books.

2 Q Did you bring those books along with you?

3 A No. I don't even have the books, as a matter of

4 fact. I have copies of the individual articles, my drafts

5 of them.

6 MR. COUSINS: I would like to request from your

7 attorney --

8 MR. HYDE: We will be glad to provide them. It

9 had been my understanding prior to coming here today

10 that the testimony that Dr. Dzurik will be giving will

11 be based on what has been cited in this material that

12 I have given to you. Certainly any time you deal with

13 an expert, you deal with all of the opinions and all

14 the knowledge they have acquired over a lifetime of

15 work, but I think that the specific documents that he

16 will be relying upon are those which are cited in this

17 summary of testimony and summary of opinions and the

18 documents that are excerpted and attached to that, if

19 that is of any assistance to you. We will be glad to

20 provide you with copies of any of these articles, too.

21 MR. COUSINS: I appreciate it.

22 MR. HYDE: Which one did you want, the third

23 one?

24 MR. COUSINS: The third and the fourth under

25 books and then the third article that's listed.

1 That would be, for the record, Water Resources

2 Planning, Chapter 12 of the Urban Planning Guide,

3 American Society of Civil Engineers, 1986.

4 Next item would be Socio-economic Considerations

5 in Water Resources Planning, and The Legal Aspects of

6 Water Resources, in Y. Muljevic and G. Macesich,

7 Yugoslav-American Studies.

8 The article would be authored by A. Dzurik and

9 R. Feldhaus, Evolution of Planning Theory and

10 Practice, Journal of Urban Planning and Development.

11 MR. HYDE: That's fine.

12 A Let me follow up on Bill's comments. I did not

13 look back on those articles at all. As we say, that's just

14 an accumulation that might be related, but I didn't look

15 back at those.

16 BY MR. COUSINS:

17 Q What I am going to do is eventually I'm going to

18 get to the documents that your attorney presented to us

19 that you had prepared recently and that will be an exhibit

20 and I will go through that systematically, point by point,

21 and ask you at that time to explain to us what you have

22 written and what sources you have relied on. These

23 preliminary questions, even though I do understand that any

24 expert will bring the benefit of his background and I would

25 hope that he would, to any testimony, I just wanted to make

1 sure that I wasn't missing out on some of your knowledge in

2 being able to better understand you and your opinions.

3 With that, we'll go back to the questions.

4 I briefly touched on before whether or not you

5 had ever done any research relevant to the topic that you

6 have been designated as being an expert providing an

7 opinion on today, have you ever done any research in the

8 areas that you have discussed?

9 A I would say writing these articles in these

10 books involves a lot of research. I never had a research

11 contract that specifically dealt with that topic.

12 Q When you say that topic, which topic are you

13 referring to?

14 A The water resources planning. In fact, I don't

15 know of anybody that has had such a thing. I have done

16 research on various aspects of water resources planning,

17 contracts on that.

18 Q Could you please tell me about some of the

19 research that you have done regarding the water resources

20 planning and, if you could, before you answer, if you could

21 also just give me the dates and the areas that you have,

22 areas of the country that you went about doing this

23 research?

24 A Water use, I did a study in northwest Florida

25 probably '84 through '86.

1 Q Maybe we can do this, Dr. Dzurik, you can list

2 all of the research that's relevant to your testimony today

3 or helped form the basis of your opinion, then we will go

4 back and systematically discuss just the highlights of

5 those research projects.

6 MR. HYDE: I think maybe I can help clarify this

7 picture for us. The research that's relevant to the

8 testimony that's to be given today and at a final

9 hearing is that which is specifically referenced in

10 this summary of opinions that I have provided to you.

11 Now I think you are asking for another set of

12 documents, too, as to what kind of research has he

13 done generally in the area of water resources planning

14 and you can certainly inquire into that area if you so

15 desire, but I think it's important to separate the two

16 for purposes of the eliciting what his expert

17 testimony is and the basis for his opinions.

18 MR. COUSINS: Now, I thought my question was

19 pretty clear. If the witness didn't understand it,

20 for instance, if I asked a question and he does not

21 have any research which does not relate to the

22 opinions that he is going to render, I guess he would

23 say no, I don't have any other than documents that I

24 provided.

25 MR. HYDE: Perhaps the confusion is just in my

1 mind really more than Dr. Dzurik's, but I think that

2 it would be -- I think that the questions being asked

3 are a bit ambiguous in that regard as to what

4 precisely you are going after and I was hoping that we

5 could focus it a bit more on things that specifically

6 relate to his testimony that is the bases for the

7 testimony and the activity he may have done.

8 That's just a suggestion.

9 MR. COUSINS: How is my question ambiguous when

10 I said to the witness to please give me all research

11 that relate to anything that's going to form the basis

12 of your opinion, how is that ambiguous?

13 MR. HYDE: Perhaps I'm just trying to clarify

14 what that is.

15 You may go ahead and ask your questions.

16 BY MR. COUSINS:

17 Q Do you understand my question, Dr. Dzurik?

18 A Yeah. The problem I have, though, is that it's

19 hard to sort out what's related to my testimony here and

20 what's not in terms of years of accumulation of doing

21 different projects. None of them very direct, it's just

22 part of an education process.

23 Q Why don't we do this then. List three or four

24 projects for me and I'm going to go through them, I'm

25 trying to make sure I get as clear and as organized a

1 record as I can and then when we do get to the documents

2 that you presented, at that point you can tell me how those

3 opinions that you have come up with relate to different

4 research projects that you have done. Is that fair?

5 A Okay, we will try to pursue that and see how it

6 works.

7 Q You had said the northwest Florida project, 1984

8 to 1986?

9 A Yeah. That dealt with water demand and water

10 policies, pricing policies. Frankly, I think that's a very

11 tangential relationship, if any.

12 Q What would be the next research project that you

13 were involved with?

14 A Research relating to the article on Evolution of

15 Planning Theory and Practice. A general literature search

16 in the general trend in planning and how it relates to

17 actual planning processes and practice of planning. That

18 deals with what different people say are appropriate

19 procedures in planning, what works, what doesn't work.

20 Q Now, don't feel a need, Doctor, to go ahead and

21 list all research off your C.V. just to list it, I'm really

22 just trying to -- it's the first time I'm meeting you, I'm

23 trying to get a feel for who you are, what you do, where

24 you have been, that's the purpose here.

25 Could you give me the date for that last

1 research project?

2 A '85, '86.

3 Q Where was that project done?

4 A That was at FSU.

5 Q Were the results of those two projects

6 published?

7 A Yes, published as articles.

8 Q Even though it might be in your C.V., what were

9 the dates respectively for the publications of each of

10 those research results?

11 A The last one on Evolution of Planning Theory and

12 Practice, December of '86.

13 Water Use and Public Policy is 1984.

14 One other that I think might be most related and

15 this also is tangential, is a consulting report I had done

16 for the Corps of Engineers' Mobile district.

17 Q Was that 1983, sir?

18 A Which one?

19 Q The report for the Corps of Engineers.

20 A Oh, no, that's 1980. The title of that is a

21 series of reports called the Northwest Florida Water

22 Resources Study.

23 Q Dr. Dzurik, did you prepare a proposal in 1983

24 for the Jacksonville Corps of Engineers for a project?

25 A No, never proposed anything for Jacksonville.

1 Q Do you belong to any professional organizations,

2 Dr. Dzurik?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Which organizations are those?

5 A American Society of Civil Engineers, American

6 Water Resources Association, Association of Environmental

7 Engineering Professors.

8 Q You are reading from your C.V., Dr. Dzurik, you

9 have not joined any new organizations since the printing of

10 this C.V.?

11 A No.

12 Q Along those lines, is this curriculum vitae

13 current and accurate?

14 A To my knowledge, it is, yes.

15 Q Have you ever had any of your privileges or

16 memberships suspended or removed for any reason?

17 A No, I haven't.

18 Q Now we are going to get to the document that you

19 produced.

20 MR. COUSINS: I would like to have this document

21 marked as Dzurik Exhibit 2.

22 (Dzurik Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)

23 BY MR. COUSINS:

24 Q Dr. Dzurik, I'm going to hand you documents

25 which have been marked as Dzurik Exhibit Number 2 and I

1 want you to please identify those documents for me.

2 A The first set is what I had written giving my

3 evaluation or opinion of the SWIM plan, as requested by the

4 attorney.

5 Attached to that are excerpts from seven books

6 that I referenced in my opinion. Those excerpts are

7 essentially the title page and the copy of a page or two

8 that was directly related to what I had written in my

9 testimony, or in my opinion, rather.

10 Q Dr. Dzurik, when did you prepare the written

11 portion?

12 A The written portion over the past two weeks, but

13 I actually finished it up Tuesday night.

14 Q Dr. Dzurik, when did you become aware that you

15 would be giving deposition testimony on the 18th and 19th

16 of February, 1993?

17 A I don't recall specifically when those dates

18 were given, perhaps mid-January, I really don't know for

19 sure.

20 Q At that time did you know that you were to

21 provide all documents that you were going to rely on?

22 A No, I didn't.

23 Q When did you come to find that out, sir, that

24 you needed to provide documents?

25 A Speaking of those that you have in your hand?

1 Q Or any documents.

2 A All of these supporting documents, just in the

3 past two days.

4 Q How did you come to that knowledge?

5 A Through Mr. Hyde.

6 Q Was this written portion of, I guess we can call

7 this the "Opinion of Everglades SWIM Plan", as it's titled,

8 by A. Dzurik, dated 2/93, was this prepared specifically

9 for this deposition?

10 A Yes.

11 MR. HYDE: Let me just make a statement for the

12 record here. When I received the notice of taking

13 deposition, which was dated February 1st, and even

14 prior to that time, we had not intended to produce any

15 information relating to Dr. Dzurik's deposition

16 because there was nothing to produce. In talking to

17 Dr. Dzurik last week and as a result of my prior

18 experience in depositions, I felt that it would be

19 helpful to provide a report for the deposition that

20 would help better focus just what the testimony would

21 be about. When Dr. Dzurik prepared that report for me

22 and discussed the things that he would be putting in

23 it, I recognized that it would be -- there would be

24 some texts being cited and I felt at that point it

25 would be very good to get a copy of excerpts from the

1 texts so that everybody could at least have them

2 available to them. Again, the scope of that testimony

3 was not even determined until last week and Dr. Dzurik

4 labored mightily to get me a report and he did in fact

5 get me a report which we got yesterday afternoon.

6 That's when I took the immediate steps to transmit it

7 to all the affected parties for their review.

8 It's intended really to be a summary of what his

9 testimony is. One could easily have just said there

10 is nothing to report or nothing to produce and just

11 let you ask questions about it and he could have told

12 you what his opinions are. I think this was really

13 just intended as an aid for the testimony rather than

14 a document that really needed to be produced. Ideally

15 it could have been produced at a much earlier date,

16 but it wasn't even determined until relatively

17 recently that a report of this nature was even

18 necessary for this deposition.

19 BY MR. COUSINS:

20 Q Dr. Dzurik, the excerpts from the seven books as

21 you have testified to that accompany your opinion, written

22 opinion, do you have the copies of those publications?

23 A Yes, I do.

24 Q Do you have them with you presently?

25 A Yes, I do.

1 Q Could you please take them out, sir?

2 A (Witness complies.)

3 Q Would this be the extent of all the documents

4 that you would rely on and have based your opinion on?

5 A Yes. Other than the SWIM plan documents.

6 Q Were there any records that you wanted to look

7 at but didn't have an opportunity to take a look at?

8 A No.

9 Q Did you feel that you had adequate time to

10 prepare your opinion in this matter?

11 A I honestly think there is never adequate time.

12 Q Needless to say, you feel comfortable today with

13 presenting your opinion?

14 A Yes.

15 MR. HYDE: His opinions are final, we are not

16 equivocating on anything. There have been some

17 witnesses that have been deposed so far that have not

18 reached all of their opinions, the U.S. has deposed

19 some and I think we may have actually deposed some,

20 too, and there's going to be a need to depose them at

21 a later date to deal with those things, but for

22 purposes of this deposition and purposes of the final

23 hearing, Dr. Dzurik's opinions are indeed final.

24 BY MR. COUSINS:

25 Q Did you rely on any kind of oral information,

1 for instance, speaking with colleagues --

2 A No.

3 Q -- regarding coming up with your opinion?

4 A No.

5 Q Dr. Dzurik, I understand you probably can

6 anticipate my question, but for the court reporter

7 sometimes it's difficult for her to try to get the two of

8 us down at once, so if you can just wait until I finish.

9 Sometimes I may not speak very quickly, but I want to make

10 sure she gets everything down and you understand my

11 question.

12 What I would like to do then is to head right

13 towards your opinion and take a look at it. Let's take a

14 one minute break off the record.

15 (Record paused briefly.)

16 BY MR. COUSINS:

17 Q Dr. Dzurik, could you just go ahead and list the

18 seven books, the titles of those books that you relied on

19 the excerpts?

20 A What I'm going to do is just read them off as I

21 have them in front of me.

22 Q Also when you do that, could you try to give as

23 complete of a bibliography as you can, for instance, title,

24 publisher, date?

25 A Um-hum. Water Management Technology and

1 Institutions, by Warren Viessman, Jr. and Claire Welty,

2 Harper & Row, Publishers, 1985.

3 Principles of Water Resources Planning, by Alvin

4 S. Goodman, published by Prentice-Hall, 1984.

5 Water Resources Planning, by Neil S. Grigg,

6 published by McGraw-Hill, 1985.

7 Water Resource Planning and Development, by

8 Margaret S. Petersen, published by Prentice-Hall, 1984.

9 Water Resources Planning and Management, by Otto

10 J. Helweg, published by John Wiley & Sons in 1985.

11 Water Resources Planning, by Andrew Dzurik,

12 published by Rowman & Littlefield in 1990.

13 Last, Environmental Planning and Decision

14 Making, by Leonard Ortolano, published by John Wiley &

15 Sons, 1984.

16 Q Thank you, Dr. Dzurik.

17 Do you consider these documents, these books

18 that you have listed, as authoritative, useful and

19 persuasive?

20 A Yes, yes, I do.

21 Q And generally relied upon in the industry?

22 A I hope so, yes.

23 Q Do you know of any publications that are out

24 there right now and that are presently in print, that you

25 might have had an opportunity to read the manuscript, that

1 you find to be authoritative in this subject?

2 A To my knowledge, these are all the books on

3 water resources planning in the past decade, other than

4 more specific types which deal with mathematical modeling

5 or water resources in Australia, something like that. I

6 don't think those things are relevant.

7 Q There's not a lot of books?

8 A No.

9 Q We might have touched on this before, but just

10 so I can get a clear record of this answer, what was the

11 task that you were asked to do?

12 A For this case?

13 Q Right, for this case.

14 A Review the SWIM plan with regards to its

15 adequacy or quality in terms of the planning process from a

16 planning standpoint.

17 Q According to your attorney, you have finished

18 that and your opinions are going to be final?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Did you have occasion to go beyond what you were

21 requested to do?

22 A No, not to my knowledge.

23 Q Now, in an analysis of the SWIM plan and

24 comparison, I gather that you had occasion to review the

25 SWIM plan?

1 A Yes.

2 Q Do you recall how many hours you spent on

3 reviewing this SWIM plan? The SWIM plan I'm referring to

4 is the Surface Water Improvement and Management Plan for

5 the Everglades, Planning Document, March 13, 1992.

6 A I would say at least 25 to 30 hours.

7 Q Dr. Dzurik, you would say you are pretty

8 comfortable then with the content of that plan as it

9 relates to your testimony today?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Dr. Dzurik, from looking at the document you

12 provided to us through your attorney yesterday evening,

13 there's some note there that you had occasion to look, as I

14 believe, at earlier SWIM plans, is that true, did you have

15 opportunity to look at earlier drafts of the SWIM plan?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Which drafts did you have occasion to look at?

18 A 1990.

19 Q Did you review the -- I'm referring back now to

20 the March 13, 1992 plan, you said you spent roughly 25

21 hours on it, did you review the entire plan, even though it

22 might not have complete relevance to your testimony?

23 A Pretty much so. Parts of it I just skimmed

24 through, that I was not much concerned with as far as

25 planning aspects.

1 Q Did you have opportunity, Dr. Dzurik, to look

2 through the supporting information documents and also the

3 appendices to the March 13, 1992 Surface Water Improvement

4 and Management Plan for the Everglades?

5 A Yes.

6 Q So at the time that you reference, would that be

7 inclusive of reviewing all the three documents that I

8 mentioned?

9 A That's right.

10 Q In that time period were you able to go through

11 each of the three documents to your satisfaction to render

12 your opinion today?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Why don't you give me the benefit of your

15 knowledge as to district regulatory programs?

16 MR. HYDE: I would object to the form of the

17 question. Are you speaking generically as to what he

18 knows about what the water management does or are you

19 talking about regulatory rules?

20 MR. COUSINS: I'll rephrase it.

21 BY MR. COUSINS:

22 Q Let me first start off with this question. Do

23 you know what a district regulatory program is?

24 A That phrase as such, no.

25 Q Is it the way I'm phrasing it or is it you just

1 don't have any knowledge of those words put together?

2 A I don't know of something called a district

3 regulatory program.

4 Q So you have never been involved in one?

5 A No.

6 Q Do you have any knowledge regarding an EAA

7 regulatory program?

8 MR. HYDE: I'm going to object to the form of

9 the question. You're asking him EAA, in fact, that

10 should be Everglades Agricultural Area. Some of us

11 are not as familiar with the jargon as others.

12 BY MR. COUSINS:

13 Q Are you familiar with the Everglades

14 Agricultural Area regulatory program?

15 A No.

16 Q Just so you will understand, Dr. Dzurik, I'm

17 just really going through to make sure, even though I know

18 your attorney said that you are going to testify and give

19 opinions on certain areas, I just want to exclude certain

20 areas so then we will not have to visit them later on. I'm

21 not trying to quiz you on things and then go back and say I

22 thought you didn't know that.

23 Have you ever heard of the term best management

24 plan?

25 A Best managing?

1 Q Best management plan.

2 A No, not best management plan. I have heard of

3 best management practices.

4 Q Have you ever heard of best management

5 practices?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Have you ever heard of it referred to as BMP?

8 A Yes.

9 Q What is your knowledge of BMP's?

10 A My knowledge is that I interpret it as a set of

11 procedures, rules, how resources are managed, directed

12 towards improving or maintaining water quality.

13 Q What is your basis of that knowledge?

14 A Partly through like teaching, partly through

15 working with people working at DER that would talk to my

16 classes.

17 MR. HYDE: May I ask for a clarification as to

18 what you intend by the term BMP? BMP is a rather

19 generic term that can apply to a host of different

20 situations or are we talking about BMP specifically

21 relating to the Everglades Agricultural Area?

22 MR. COUSINS: What I want to do, first of all,

23 if the doctor had never heard of the term at all, I

24 wasn't going to continue, but since he has, my next

25 questions are going to be more focused towards how or

1 whether he has had any involvement with BMP as it

2 relates to the EAA.

3 BY MR. COUSINS:

4 Q You now understand what the EAA is?

5 A (Witness nods head affirmatively.)

6 Q I'm sorry, had you finished what you were saying

7 before?

8 A Yes. Generally my interpretation of BMP's is

9 ways to do things best to minimize any kind of negative

10 effects on water quality. Just a very, very loose or vague

11 term as I have heard it used.

12 Q You said your experience has been through

13 teaching and then I didn't catch what you said?

14 A People at DER, employees here who would give

15 guest lectures in my classes and mention BMP's.

16 Q I want to delve into a little bit about the

17 teaching area. How through your teaching have you become

18 aware of BMP's, other than the lectures that you might have

19 sat in on that were presented by DER?

20 A Reading literature on water quality, water

21 management. I have taught courses in water planning, water

22 resources planning, where this term would come up.

23 Q Who were the guest speakers, if you can recall,

24 from DER who spoke?

25 A Eric Livingston.

1 Q Who is Mr. Livingston?

2 A He is the -- I think his position is head of the

3 storm water section.

4 Q Why was Mr. Livingston speaking to your class

5 regarding BMP's?

6 A It was a class dealing with storm water runoff,

7 with detention, retention basins. He talked about that in

8 the context of managing storm water.

9 Q Do you recall when that lecture was?

10 A The most recent I would say was September '92.

11 Q You use the term most recent, so I gather that

12 Dr. Livingston, Mr. Livingston, I'm not sure if he is a

13 doctor, has had occasion to speak to your class on more

14 than one occasion?

15 A Um-hum.

16 Q How many times roughly?

17 A I think twice. Same course, two different

18 times, essentially the same material two different times.

19 Q Have you ever been involved in the preparation

20 of any BMP standards?

21 A No.

22 Q I picked up this term water resource planning

23 concepts and I'm thinking I picked that up from documents I

24 received in trying to prepare for this deposition, are you

25 familiar with that term, water resource planning concepts?

1 A I'm familiar with the term water resources

2 planning.

3 Q Do you know what a water resource planning

4 concept is or are? I know it sounds like a big, broad

5 question?

6 A As I interpret it, I like to think that I do,

7 yes.

8 Q Well, that really reads up to my next question

9 is have you ever been involved in the planning of any water

10 resource planning concepts?

11 A With the planning -- I don't understand your

12 question.

13 Q You seem to be stuck on the word planning, let

14 me see if I can ask it again and see if you understand

15 that, if not, we'll move on.

16 Have you ever been involved in the planning of

17 water resource concepts?

18 A No.

19 Q In the documents that you have provided that we

20 have listed here as Dzurik Exhibit 2, do you discuss

21 remedies?

22 MR. HYDE: I'm going to object to the form

23 unless there is some definition of what you mean by

24 remedies.

1 BY MR. COUSINS:

2 Q If you have a basis of understanding how to

3 answer that, go ahead.

4 A I don't think I use the word, I don't recall

5 using the word remedies.

6 Q I know, Doctor, that you have listed the seven

7 books that you relied on in forming your opinion and also

8 we discussed your C.V. and some of your background. Did

9 anyone else assist in the preparation of this document that

10 is marked Dzurik Exhibit Number 2?

11 A No.

12 Q When you say no, this goes quick.

13 This is something I would like you to do, and

14 keep in mind throughout the deposition, when we start

15 getting into this document, if there are terms just as I in

16 error used the term EAA without describing what that meant,

17 or BMP, if there is anything in here that might just be

18 specific to the area that you are most knowledgeable in and

19 there might be some confusion to a lay person like myself

20 as to what that term means, you might want to highlight

21 that for me. I'll be going through and asking you

22 questions, not to ask you as to the type of words you use,

23 but maybe its meaning in the context of your opinion.

24 I haven't had an occasion to look through those

25 books, but were there any photographs or any clippings from

1 newspapers or anything other than written work that you

2 reviewed in that document that you relied on?

3 A No.

4 Q Your knowledge of the EAA and the areas involved

5 in this SWIM plan, is that basically from -- let me strike

6 that.

7 Your knowledge of the EAA and the areas involved

8 in the Everglades SWIM plan, is that based from your

9 reading of the SWIM plan and supporting documents, and

10 specifically what I'm talking about is the geographical

11 location?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did you type this up yourself, referring to

14 Dzurik Number 2?

15 A Of course.

16 Q And your attorney stated and I just want you to

17 state for the record if it's so, that you did not do any

18 independent empirical research or gathered any data in

19 preparation for your opinion?

20 A That's right.

21 Q Dr. Dzurik, again it sounds like we are trying

22 to beat this thing to death, but many experts at times will

23 use various different areas and means to come up with their

24 opinions, I just want to make sure that there is nothing

25 else that you have done, I'll give you a moment to think

1 about it, no assistance from anyone, you haven't looked at

2 any documents or done any experiments or anything other

3 than what you have presented here, to come up with your

4 opinion?

5 A I think that's an accurate statement.

6 Q All right, we're at Dzurik Number 2, I want you

7 to, after I ask you questions on it, to help us go through

8 this. It's roughly -- the pages aren't numbered, but I

9 counted 11 pages, if I counted properly, maybe you can go

10 ahead and count them for us. For the rest of the

11 deposition and except for some cleanup questions that I may

12 have at the end, we are going to go through your opinion

13 and I want you to describe in as much detail as you can,

14 your opinion, and I will ask you questions as to what you

15 based it on, what documents here specifically relate to

16 certain parts of your opinion, if any, just have you teach

17 class, tell me about what you think about the Everglades

18 SWIM plan as it relates to your designated area of

19 testimony?

20 A I count 10 pages.

21 MR. HYDE: That's what I count, too. In fact,

22 for ease of communication and for the purpose of the

23 record, it might be useful for all of us to just

24 number the pages. I'm sorry, we could have done that

25 and didn't do it previously.

1 BY MR. COUSINS:

2 Q Could you look at this, Dr. Dzurik, Exhibit

3 Number 2 and make sure that my copy is in the same order as

4 your copy?

5 A (Witness complies.) Yes, they are in the same

6 order.

7 Q Thank you.

8 Could you please state for me what your opinion

9 or opinions are. I'm asking you this in this form because

10 I want to list them out first and then I actually want to

11 go through each page of this with you to determine how you

12 have reached those opinions.

13 A Could you clarify that question? Do you want me

14 to essentially summarize what I have written here as far as

15 what my opinions are?

16 Q Right. Just list, if there is a place here

17 where you can point to these are my opinions as listed or

18 just go ahead and list them for me. Again, most of this is

19 just due to, even though it's not a long document, I just

20 want to make sure that in my reading of this at twilight

21 last night, I picked up on what I gather to be your

22 opinions.

23 A Looking first at the set of books, my opinion is

24 there's a fairly consistent pattern of water resources

25 planning as far as the steps in the planning process. One

1 that I focused on with regard to the SWIM plan is

2 identification of the problem and formulation of

3 alternatives.

4 Q Dr. Dzurik, are you making reference to a

5 publication based upon your first opinion or is this a

6 continuation of your first opinion?

7 A It's a continuation, I'm not referring to any

8 one publication.

9 Q Just so I am accurate here, so far you have said

10 there's a fairly consistent pattern of water resources

11 planning and then that's when I thought you started to

12 refer to a publication, so if you can just continue.

13 A Consistent pattern of water resources planning

14 process. In particular, I looked at problem identification

15 and formulation of alternatives. With regard to the SWIM

16 plan, I see those as the major shortcomings. I also

17 identify lack of an environmental impact statement.

18 Q Dr. Dzurik, not to cut you off, but would this

19 be a second opinion?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Lack of environmental impact statement?

22 A Um-hum.

23 Q You have referred to that in your document as

24 EIS?

25 A Yes.

1 Q Is EIS the way that this is normally referred to

2 in publications?

3 A Yes, it is. Those are in summary the findings

4 that I deal with throughout this document that I prepared.

5 Q So, Dr. Dzurik, if I am correct, you have listed

6 two opinions?

7 A Yes. A third one which follows from that is

8 essentially the idea, I use a phrase here, putting the cart

9 before the horse in coming up with solutions, but this

10 stems from not adequately identifying the problem or

11 formulating alternatives.

12 Q Because this is very important for me and for

13 the record, I'm going to attempt to list as I have written

14 down here quickly, what you have stated as your opinion,

15 and then if I, when I speak to you regarding those

16 opinions, have made an error, tell me and I'll clarify it,

17 because this is going to be the basis for the rest of our

18 deposition time today.

19 Your first opinion started off almost, I gather,

20 as a statement. There is a fairly consistent pattern of

21 water resources planning process regarding the problem of

22 identification and formulation of alternatives to the SWIM

23 plan. Have I stated that accurately, Doctor?

24 A I think you need to put a period after

25 consistent pattern of water resources planning process,

1 period. Maybe I should elaborate before we get to the next

2 one, because depending on which book you read or which

3 article, there might be eight or nine or 10 different steps

4 in the planning process. I focused on those two there,

5 problem identification and alternatives as the ones that

6 are relevant to my opinions about the SWIM plan.

7 Q Let me try it again then. So your opinion is

8 that there is a fairly consistent pattern of water

9 resources planning process?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Would that be a colon?

12 A Period.

13 Q Then the next sentence would be?

14 A If you want to make a complete sentence, within

15 that planning process, two steps are especially relevant.

16 Those are --

17 Q Those are?

18 A Problem identification and formulation of

19 alternatives.

20 Q The first time you mentioned it, I think you

21 used the word SWIM plan, but we're not going to use that

22 now? I think the way I had it first was a fairly

23 consistent pattern of water resources planning process

24 regarding problem identification and formulation of

25 alternatives in the SWIM plan. I don't need to have it

1 there, but I just want to make sure.

2 MR. HYDE: I think he said earlier these were

3 the major problems with the Everglades SWIM plan.

4 That's, I think, the relationship of that phrase to

5 what he has offered as his general opinions.

6 BY MR. COUSINS:

7 Q Your first opinion then reads, a fairly

8 consistent pattern of water resources planning process.

9 Within that planning process, two steps are especially

10 relevant. These are problem identification and formulation

11 of alternatives.

12 A Yes, relevant to my opinion about the SWIM plan.

13 That's what relevance we are talking about.

14 Q Let's try the second one. What I wrote down,

15 and again this is definitely subject to your correction, is

16 that there is a lack of environmental impact statement?

17 A That's right.

18 Q Would that be -- is there any more elaboration

19 you want to put on that or is it lack of environmental

20 impact statement in the SWIM plan?

21 A On the SWIM plan, lack of environmental impact

22 statement on the SWIM plan.

23 Q The third opinion was what you said really

24 flowed from the prior two was, I guess it's kind of a quote

25 I read there on the first page, putting the cart before the

1 horse, not adequately identifying the problem before

2 formulating alternatives?

3 A (Witness nods head affirmatively.)

4 Q I know you know what that means, but could you

5 explain that in layman's terms for me? I mean, that may be

6 too layman