102 1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA 2 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE ) 3 OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC.; and ) WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 4 Petitioners, ) vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3038 5 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) 6 of Florida; et al., ) Respondents. ) 7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., ) 8 UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) 9 Petitioners, ) vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3039 10 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) 11 of Florida; et al., ) Respondents. ) 12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) 13 ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., ) 14 and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) Petitioners, ) 15 vs. )DOAH Case No. 92-3040 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) 16 DISTRICT, an agency of the State ) of Florida; et al., ) 17 Respondents. ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x 18 100 Southeast 2nd Street Miami, Florida 19 March 16, 1994 9:10 a.m. - 6:20 p.m. 20 CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS 21 VOLUME II 22 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, Registered 23 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for 24 the State of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of 25 Taking Deposition filed in the above cause. 103 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORP., and 4 NEW SOUTH HOPE, INC. 5 EARL BLANK KAVANAUGH & STOTTS , P.A. 6 One Biscayne Tower - Suite 3636 Two South Biscayne Boulevard 7 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: MARK T. KOBELINSKI, ESQ. 8 9 ON BEHALF OF THE REPSONDENT SOUTH FLORIDA WATER 10 MANAGEMENT DISTRICT 11 POPHAM HAIK SCHNOBRICH KAUFMAN 12 International Place - 40th Floor 100 Southeast 2nd Street 13 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: PAUL L. NETTLETON, ESQ. 14 15 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR 16 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 17 KATHY A. STARK, ESQ. 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 99 Northeast 4th Street 19 Third Floor Miami, Florida 33132 20 21 PRESENT: 22 THOMAS ARMENTANO 23 24 25 104 1 INDEX 2 3 Witness Direct 4 WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS 5 By Mr. Nettleton: 105 6 7 EXHIBITS 8 9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 10 3 Map entitled 1993 Extent of 197 11 Cattails in Everglades 12 Conservation Areas 13 14 4 Rutchey September 1992 Report 232 15 16 5 Jensen et al. Report 232 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 1 WILLIAM MICHAEL DENNIS, resumed. 2 THE COURT REPORTER: Dr. Dennis, I remind 3 you you are still under oath. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 6 BY MR. NETTLETON: 7 Q. Dr. Dennis, when we left off yesterday we 8 were talking about some of the Duke wetlands studies 9 that were going on and your knowledge concerning 10 those. I would just like to pick up there with some 11 of the matters we had not yet discussed. 12 You had also mentioned a fractionation of 13 phosphorus study that Duke was involved in. Do you 14 recall that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is your understanding of that study? 17 A. It is my understanding that basically the 18 addressed the various forms of phosphorus, how they 19 occurred, where they they occurred, the relationships 20 between them in the sediment. 21 Q. Do you know if that study is completed at 22 this date? 23 A. I believe it is, but I am not absolutely 24 certain. 25 Q. Do you know where that research project 106 1 was being conducted? 2 A. No, I don't recall. 3 Q. Was that a field study? 4 MR. KOBELINSKI: Counsel, to the extent 5 you would like to show him some of the Duke reports 6 he has turned over in his document production, you 7 can refresh his recollection. Also I know you are 8 deposing Curtis in about a week and a half. Perhaps 9 it would speed up Mike's deposition by reserving 10 Curtis questions for Curtis Richardson. 11 MR. NETTLETON: Thank you. 12 BY MR. NETTLETON: 13 Q. You can still answer. 14 A. I really don't recall the details of the 15 study more than that. I believe it was reported on 16 in one of the annual reports. 17 Q. What is your understanding of the results 18 of the macroinvertebrate study that was conducted by 19 Duke? 20 A. That they found populations of 21 macroinvertebrates in areas identified as 22 nutrient-impacted areas. 23 Basically this was work done principally I 24 believe by Russ Rader, and he sampled 25 macroinvertebrates in areas that are termed impacted 107 1 and found and reported on the types, numbers and 2 densities of macroinvertebrates in that area. 3 Q. Do you recall what results or conclusions 4 they reached as a result of that study? 5 A. I believe the general conclusions were 6 that they found a good number of different species, 7 and in good quantities. 8 Q. Where? 9 A. In the nutrient -- areas that are termed 10 impacted or the nutrient-impacted areas as they are 11 referred to. 12 Q. Do you know if they looked in any, as to 13 the macroinvertebrate communities in 14 non-nutrient-impacted areas? 15 A. I believe they did. Again, I haven't 16 reviewed these reports in detail in some time. I 17 could give you a better account of my understanding 18 of them if I could see a copy of it to refresh myself 19 on it. 20 Q. What is your understanding of the results 21 of the gradient study that was done by Duke wetlands? 22 A. As I recall, this was related to transect 23 in the northern part of 2A in which they generally 24 found a gradient of soil phosphorus concentrations 25 which were higher near the Hillsborough Canal and the 108 1 10 structures and became less going south from those 2 structures. 3 Q. What is your understanding of the distance 4 the gradient continues to move south? 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form of 6 the question. 7 MR. NETTLETON: I will rephrase it. 8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Thanks. 9 BY MR. NETTLETON: 10 Q. What is your understanding of the distance 11 south of the S-10s that the nutrient gradient 12 continues to exist from high to low before it levels 13 off? 14 MR. KOBELINSKI: Is this in reference to 15 Curtis Richardson's transect or just generally? 16 MR. NETTLETON: His understanding of the 17 system. 18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Generally. 19 A. Again I believe that those numbers are 20 clearly presented in his papers and annual reports. 21 And I don't recall the exact distances. 22 Q. Again, with the understanding that you are 23 not looking at the report right now, and again, I am 24 not necessarily referring only to Curt Richardson's 25 report at this stage, do you have an understanding of 109 1 approximately the distance south of the S-10s that 2 the nutrient gradient exists within the soils? 3 MR. KOBELINSKI: I will object to the form 4 of the question, just to the extent that you are 5 talking about three structures and you are giving 6 south as the exact direction. 7 Q. You can still answer. 8 (Pause) 9 A. As I recall, there is irregular area south 10 of the 10 structures so that the distances vary. And 11 if I had any of those documents here I could give you 12 a good answer on that. 13 As I sit here and try and recall those, it 14 is in the order of magnitude of five, six, seven 15 miles, I believe. It may be a little less, it may be 16 a little bit more. 17 I am not trying to not give you an answer, 18 I just don't carry those numbers around in my head 19 all the time. 20 Q. Yesterday you told us about a number of 21 tasks that were assigned to you by your client. The 22 first one was to investigate the cattail occurrence 23 and spread in the area 1 and 2A around the S-10s, is 24 that correct? 25 A. Yes. 110 1 Q. And then the second thing you mentioned 2 was working with your clients in addressing the 3 concerns that had been raised in the press about the 4 rapid spread of cattails throughout the Everglades. 5 Would I be correct in assuming that those 6 two tasks somewhat merged together in your work? 7 A. They were interrelated, yes. 8 Q. Given that the first one is what you 9 mentioned you were first asked to investigate, can 10 you tell me chronologically to the extent you can 11 keep things chronologically straight over the years 12 as they have occurred, what exactly you and BDA did 13 to address this task of investigating the occurrence 14 and spread of cattail in the Everglades Protection 15 Area? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 As I recall, I was first asked to look at 18 and become familiar with a helicopter survey that had 19 been conducted by Paul Larsen with several botanists 20 that had been conducted in the northern part of 2A 21 south of the 10 structures. 22 So I inspected by helicopter that area 23 south of the 10 structures to become familiar with 24 what had been done in that study and the extent of 25 the cattails south of the 10 structures. 111 1 I next was asked to investigate the 2 occurrence and distribution of cattail immediately 3 north of the 10 structures in the southern part of 4 Water Conservation Area 1. 5 So I served as one of the botanists on 6 that investigation. 7 For clarification, are you asking me to 8 chronology all of the events, that was in 1989 to 9 early '90, are you asking me to chronology the events 10 since then? 11 Q. I will keep prompting you as we move 12 through this. 13 I think it would be easier, I will come 14 back and ask you a couple of more questions about 15 these but I would like to kind of take us through to 16 where we get to today. 17 If you can tell me after you did this 18 investigation north of the S-10s, what was the next 19 activity that you undertook to address these tasks? 20 A. We at some point investigated the area 21 again south of the 10 structures in the northern part 22 of 2A to determine cattail extent. 23 Q. Was that again by helicopter? 24 A. The investigation was primarily by 25 helicopter with some selective ground truthing. 112 1 In that general time period we were also 2 asked to provide assistance in ground truthing and 3 reviewing training stations for a remote sensing 4 analysis that was being performed. 5 Q. When you say that time period, what time 6 period are we into at this stage? 7 A. 1990. 8 Q. Who was performing the remote sensing 9 analysis? 10 A. A group called ERIM, E R I M. 11 Q. What does ERIM stand for? 12 A. I don't recall. It is a group out of 13 Michigan, I believe, that performs, among other 14 things, remote sensing type studies. 15 Q. Do you recall the principal investigator 16 for ERIM? 17 A. I don't recall the name of the designated 18 principal investigator on the study. 19 Q. Do you recall the name of any of the 20 investigators from ERIM? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What are those names? 23 A. The person that I coordinated with was one 24 of their team that worked on the study, Jackie Ott. 25 Q. Anybody else you recall? 113 1 A. That was my primary source of contact. I 2 met some of the other ERIM people but I don't recall 3 their names. 4 Q. Was ERIM under contract with the League or 5 with their attorneys, to your knowledge? 6 A. I believe that's the case. 7 Q. This is in the 1990 time period. What was 8 the next activity you undertook to address the task 9 of investigating the occurrence and spread of cattail 10 in the EPA? 11 A. The next activity of, I guess, some focus 12 was an effort that began probably late 1990, extended 13 through 1991, essentially, in which we attempted to 14 map the distribution of cattail throughout the Water 15 Conservation Areas. 16 Q. When you say we, who are you referring to? 17 A. Myself and other scientists at Breedlove, 18 Dennis & Associates. 19 Q. Other than scientists at BDA, were there 20 any other persons involved in this activity? 21 A. Not directly. 22 Q. What about indirectly? 23 A. During that time period if other 24 scientists had, based on work that they may have been 25 doing or experience in the Water Conservation Areas, 114 1 found or heard of location of cattail, they would 2 report that to us. 3 So during that time we were attempting to 4 gather what information we could on where cattail 5 actually occurred. That -- 6 Q. What -- excuse me. Go ahead. 7 A. I -- 8 Q. All right. 9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Why don't you pose a 10 question. 11 MR. NETTLETON: I was planning to. 12 BY MR. NETTLETON: 13 Q. Following this activity, what was the next 14 activity that you or others at BDA undertook to 15 address the task of the cattail occurrence in the 16 EPA? 17 A. The next primary task in that regard was 18 mapping of the extent cattail that we conducted in 19 1993. 20 Q. When you say conducted, you mean the 21 actual physical mapping that you did was in 1993? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Was this mapping based upon your 24 activities in late 1990 through 1991, the ground 25 truthing that you referred to? 115 1 A. We built on the information and knowledge 2 that we acquired in the development of the cattail 3 mapping in the '90-'91 and early '92 time frame. 4 Q. When you say in 1993 you were mapping the 5 extent of the cattail, are you referring to 6 physically putting the pen on the paper and drawing a 7 map, is that what you are referring to by mapping? 8 A. That was included, yes. 9 Q. Were you also doing site investigation 10 during 1993? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 MR. KOBELINSKI: Paul, I think we are 13 operating on a little misconception. Just so you are 14 aware of it,a map similar to that for 1991 was 15 produced a year ago for his deposition, the 1991 16 cattail map, same size, et cetera. Just so -- 17 MR. NETTLETON: Do you have that? 18 MS. STARK: I have never seen it 19 MR. NETTLETON: I don't have it. 20 MR. KOBELINSKI: It was Bates numbered and 21 it was produced. 22 MR. NETTLETON: Do you have a copy back at 23 your office you could bring to us tomorrow? 24 Seriously, Mark, I don't have it. 25 MR. KOBELINSKI: That one I know was 116 1 produced. I was there physically when it was 2 produced, when the Dennis documents were produced. I 3 will see if he can we can get another one. 4 MR. NETTLETON: To whom was it produced? 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I believe it was Alberto 6 who got over for the Dennis documents. 7 MS. STARK: We got transect maps. 8 MR. KOBELINSKI: Something that looks a 9 lot like that. But as I said, I was the one who was 10 physically there. 11 MR. NETTLETON: I appreciate your 12 clarification. 13 BY MR. NETTLETON: 14 Q. Am I correct, Dr. Dennis, that the 15 activity you described previously from late 1990 16 through '91 involved the actual construction of a 17 vegetative map for that general time period? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And then the activity that you just 20 described of mapping the cattails that was conducted 21 in 1993, that was a subsequent map that was 22 developed? 23 A. Yes, sir. There were two maps. 24 Q. Since the activity that you conducted in 25 1993 of mapping the extent of cattail, have you 117 1 undertaken any additional work to address the 2 specific task of investigating the occurrence of 3 cattail in the EPA? 4 A. We have not conducted any field, 5 additional field studies or produced any cattail 6 distribution maps since the 1993 map. 7 Q. Other than conducting field studies or 8 additional mapping, have you undertaken any activity 9 in order to confirm or in any other way address the 10 task of investigating the occurrence of cattail in 11 the EPA? 12 A. The only other thing that we had done 13 specifically in that regard, as I recall, since the 14 production of the '93 cattail map is review of other 15 cattail maps that have been produced or other 16 vegetation maps that have been produced. 17 Q. What other vegetation maps have you 18 reviewed? 19 A. I recall seeing and reviewing the, I 20 believe it was the 1991 time frame, satellite map 21 produced by the Water Management District. 22 Q. That would be by Ken Rutchey, et al.? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Any other vegetation maps that you 25 reviewed? 118 1 A. There was recently a series of satellite 2 maps produced by Dr. Jensen that I have seen. 3 Q. Any other vegetation maps that you have 4 seen? 5 A. I believe those are the only recent ones 6 in the last six months or so that I have reviewed. 7 Q. The work that you did in late '90 through 8 '91, that mapping effort, what date do you put on 9 that map? Is that a 1991 map, just so we can discuss 10 it? 11 A. For nomenclatural purposes I believe we 12 refer to that as the 1991 cattail map. 13 Q. For purposes of developing the 1991 map 14 did you review any other vegetation maps? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which maps did you review in that effort? 17 A. We reviewed the vegetation map that was 18 produced by the co-op unit at the University of 19 Florida. I think that is referred to as Work Order 20 32. 21 We also reviewed the cattail maps that 22 were produced in the Larsen reports. 23 And as a matter of general information we 24 reviewed certain historical vegetation maps and 25 accounts of the Everglades. 119 1 Q. Do you recall what historical maps and 2 accounts you reviewed? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you tell me what they are? 5 A. We reviewed the John Henry Davis 1943 6 vegetation map which describes the overall vegetation 7 of the South Florida area. 8 There were some specific maps of other 9 areas of the Everglades contained in Work Order 32 10 and also some of the various reports concerning the 11 Loxahatchee Wildlife Refuge or WCA-1. There was a 12 map in the fifties, another one in the sixties. 13 Q. These are in reports relating to the 14 Loxahatchee? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Any other historical maps or accounts that 17 you recall reviewing? 18 A. I believe there was a map and certainly 19 there were accounts of vegetation by Loviss. 20 There was data that existed concerning 21 vegetation in Everglades National Park but, but I'm 22 not sure that I ever saw that data in a form and 23 fashion for a length of time to really review it 24 sufficiently. 25 There are probably others, but those are 120 1 certainly the primary ones that I can recall right 2 now. 3 Q. Other than the ones you just mentioned, 4 did you review any vegetation maps during your 5 activity of developing the 1993 map? 6 A. I believe the list I have given you 7 includes the primary maps and information that was 8 used for both of those. 9 Q. The first thing you mentioned was a 10 helicopter survey done by Paul Larsen and some 11 botanists in the northern area of 2A. 12 Who does Paul Larsen work for? 13 A. I believe he works for himself. 14 Q. Was his survey being done pursuant to 15 contract with the League or their attorneys, to your 16 knowledge? 17 A. I assume so, but I have no direct 18 knowledge of his contractual relationships. 19 Q. Who were the other botanists other than 20 Paul Larsen who were involved in that survey to your 21 knowledge? 22 A. I believe those names are reported in his 23 '89 report, and I don't recall their names. 24 I believe one of them was from Dames & 25 Moore and the other from ESP. 121 1 MR. KOBELINSKI: Counsel, that was covered 2 in detail in Paul Larsen's deposition a couple of 3 weeks ago. 4 MR. NETTLETON: I wasn't there. 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: I recognize that. 6 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record a second. 7 (Discussion off the record) 8 BY MR. NETTLETON: 9 Q. In becoming familiar with the survey 10 conducted by Paul Larsen, did you have any direct 11 discussions with Paul Larsen about that survey? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Can you give me a rough estimate of how 14 many times you have spoken with Paul Larsen 15 concerning that survey? 16 A. Over what time frame? 17 Q. You aren't going to say it was only one or 18 two times, it sounds like from 1989 forward. 19 A. I don't know how many times. 20 Q. Can you tell me what the substance of your 21 discussions with Paul Larsen was about as they 22 related to that particular survey? 23 A. Yes. Generally, as I recall, I first 24 discussed with Paul Larsen the methodology that was 25 used in conducting that survey, what he did, where he 122 1 did it, the conditions under which it was conducted. 2 And he provided, or it was provided to me 3 through counsel, I don't recall which, the maps that 4 showed the extent of cattail, and then also the 5 report that detailed the methodology and the results. 6 Over the next five years we may have had 7 discussions relative to the results of that survey in 8 general discussions about the cattail distribution 9 and occurrence. 10 I believe we also discussed generally that 11 survey when we were preparing to conduct the 12 additional helicopter surveys with Paul Larsen. 13 That's the general nature of the 14 conversations concerning that. 15 Q. What was the time period of Paul Larsen's 16 survey as reflected in the 1989 report? 17 A. I believe that he conducted his first 18 helicopter survey in the summer of 1989, and then the 19 subsequent surveys were conducted, I don't recall 20 whether it was late '89, 1990, that time frame. 21 Q. Are the results of all of his surveys set 22 forth in the '89 report that you referred to? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did he issue subsequent reports concerning 25 his later surveys? 123 1 A. I am sorry, I didn't hear the question. 2 Q. Did he issue subsequent reports reflecting 3 his later surveys? 4 A. Yes. I believe all those reports that I 5 had were turned over to you. 6 Q. In your discussions with Paul Larsen 7 concerning his methodologies of what he did, where he 8 did it and the conditions under which it was done, 9 were those discussions prompted by a concern on your 10 part about that methodology? 11 A. No. They were prompted by an interest and 12 need to know what was done and how it was done. 13 Q. Why was there a need to know that on your 14 part? 15 A. One of the most immediate needs was that 16 we were about to use a similar methodology to look at 17 the amount of and distribution of cattail in the 18 southern part of WCA-1. 19 Q. You stated in the 1989 to 1990 period that 20 you inspected by helicopter the area south of the 21 S-10s to become familiar with what was done in the 22 Larsen study and in that area, what was in that area. 23 Did Paul Larsen accompany you on those 24 helicopter surveys? 25 A. Yes, he did. 124 1 Q. Can you describe the general purpose of or 2 the specific purpose of the helicopter overflights 3 that were undertaken again at this first step when 4 you were investigating the areas south of the S-10s? 5 Was it simply a familiarization or were you actually 6 collecting data at that time? 7 A. As I recall, we conducted reconnaisance 8 investigations to become familiar with the area 9 before we began actually recording, collecting any 10 quantifiable data. 11 Q. Do you recall generally the approximate 12 geographic area that you covered in that initial or 13 initial helicopter overflights? 14 A. As I recall, it was generally the area of 15 Water Conservation Area 2. We may have flown over 16 other parts of the conservation areas going or coming 17 to that, but as I recall, our initial primary focus 18 was WCA-2A. 19 Q. And did your reconnaissance cover the 20 entire area of 2A? 21 A. It was a general reconnaissance of 2A. 22 Q. During that general reconnaissance did you 23 obtain an understanding of the extent of the cattail 24 occurrence in area 2A south of the S-10 structures? 25 A. Generally, yes. 125 1 Q. What understanding did you receive as far 2 as the geographic extent of the cattail coverage 3 south of the S-10 structures? 4 A. Generally that the largest area of rather 5 dense cattail occurred in the northern part of 3A 6 generally south of the 10 structures. 7 Q. You said 3A, did you mean 2A? 8 A. I am sorry, thank you, 2A. 9 Q. Do you recall approximately how many acres 10 or hectares were covered with cattail or mixed 11 communities of cattail and sawgrass south of the 12 S-10s at that time? 13 A. I was not able to determine that from the 14 reconnaissance. 15 Q. Do you recall how many miles or kilometers 16 south of the S-10s the cattail existed? 17 A. It was generally in the northern -- in 18 thinking about a map of 2A, the denser cattail was 19 generally in the northern quarter, more or less, of 20 the whole conservation area. And then there was an 21 area of mixed cattail and sawgrass that same, perhaps 22 encompassing the top third, more or less. 23 Q. Other than in the northern area of 24 Conservation Area 2A, did you find any significant 25 cattail stands or mixed communities of cattail and 126 1 sawgrass in other areas of Water Conservation Area 2A 2 during this general reconnaissance flight or flights 3 that we are discussing? 4 A. There were some other areas that we found 5 cattail in. I don't know how you want me to define 6 significant. 7 Q. What other areas of 2A did you visually 8 observe cattail during this reconnaissance? 9 A. As I recall, there were perhaps some small 10 patches of cattail in close proximity to the levee 11 and canal that separates WCA-2A from 2B, and some 12 cattail along the levee that marks the western 13 boundary of WCA-2A. 14 Q. When you say small patches of cattail near 15 the levee and canal between 2A and 2B, can you give 16 me some rough estimation of the acreage that was 17 involved, if it was to that extent? 18 A. I can't from that reconnaissance flight. 19 There were just some small patches of, or bands 20 associated with or in close approximity to those 21 canals or levees. 22 Q. Were they directly adjacent to the levees? 23 A. Some of them were. 24 Q. How far generally north of the levees did 25 you observe cattails during this reconnaissance? 127 1 A. As I recall on that reconnaissance, which 2 was just that, a reconnaissance flight, the 3 impression I had was that they were in pretty close 4 proximity to the canals or the levees at the southern 5 and western part. 6 Q. Pretty close proximity, would that be less 7 than a kilometer? 8 A. Generally, yes. 9 Q. How many reconnaissance flights, was there 10 more than one that were taken in this particular time 11 period when you were familiarizing yourself with the 12 area? 13 A. In that initial time period, as I recall, 14 there was more than one, and I would say there were 15 several. Several would be one to three, somewhere in 16 that neighborhood. 17 Q. Generally were they over a short time span 18 that you took these reconnaissance flights? 19 (Pause) 20 Q. Let me rephrase that. Do you recall what 21 the time frame was over which these one or several 22 flights occurred? 23 A. The initial reconnaissance flights were 24 over a period of one to a few months. 25 Q. Do you recall what time of year it was? 128 1 A. Fall 1989, and then moving forward from 2 there. 3 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what the 4 water levels were in the southern area of 2A where 5 you observed the cattails in these reconnaissance 6 flights in 1989, the fall of 1989? 7 MR. KOBELINSKI: During the time period he 8 actually took the flights? 9 MR. NETTLETON: Right. 10 A. To the extent that I made any notes of 11 those, I probably noted water level impressions with 12 regard to conditions in those notes. As I recall, 13 the water levels fluctuated. And I have seen it when 14 there has been standing water throughout and then 15 times when it has been relatively dry. I 16 don't -- 17 Q. I am referring specifically to the time 18 during your reconnaissance flights in the fall of 19 1989. Do you know what the water levels were at that 20 time? 21 A. I don't specifically know what they were. 22 Q. During these reconnaissance flights did 23 you ever touch down with the helicopter in any areas 24 of 2A? 25 A. I believe we did. Generally what we did 129 1 on those flights was fly over at various altitudes, 2 beginning higher to get an overall view and 3 perspective, and then as we saw something that we 4 wanted to look closer at we would fly down closer and 5 inspect it. 6 And we may have set down on those 7 reconnaissance flights. 8 I am having a hard time separating out in 9 my mind exactly what was done on each of the flights, 10 whether it was one of the reconnaissance flights or 11 one of the later survey flights. 12 But to try to be responsive and give you a 13 good idea on what we would do on those reconnaissance 14 flights, that's essentially what we would do. 15 Q. During this reconnaissance flight were you 16 actually collecting water level data at any location 17 or collecting data on vegetative communities? 18 A. No, no detailed data. We were only 19 becoming familiar with the area and the system. We 20 may have made note of vegetation or water condition. 21 Q. Who would have made those notes? Would 22 that have been you or someone else in the helicopter? 23 A. It could have been any of the people in 24 the helicopter. I often made notes on some but not 25 all of the helicopter surveys. 130 1 Q. I believe you indicated during 2 approximately this same time period of the fall of 3 1989 into 1990 that you began investigating the 4 occurrence and distribution of cattail north of the 5 S-10s in Area 1, is that correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. I believe you said you served as one of 8 the botanists on that investigation. Who were the 9 other botanists? 10 A. As I recall, Dr. Bill Grey of our office 11 assisted in that investigation. 12 Q. You said Bill Grey? 13 A. Bill Grey. 14 Q. Anybody else 15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you referring to 16 botanists? 17 MR. NETTLETON: Right now, yes. 18 MR. KOBELINSKI: That was your initial 19 question, that's why I am asking. 20 A. Dr. Grey and I were the ones who were 21 taking the or making the determination on the 22 botanical aspects of that survey. 23 Q. Who else other than yourself and Bill Grey 24 was involved in that inspection north of the S-10s in 25 the fall 1989-1990 time period? 131 1 A. Of course there was the helicopter pilot 2 and those were the only ones actively involved in the 3 investigation. And I believe those were the only 4 ones in the helicopter. There may have been someone 5 else that came along for familiarization since we had 6 helicopter time and we were out there. 7 But as I recall, certainly the principal 8 people conducting that survey were Paul Larsen, Dr. 9 Grey and myself. 10 Q. Am I correct that this flight over the 11 area north of the S-10s in Conservation Area 1 was 12 not simply a reconnaissance flight, that you were 13 actually doing some collecting of data? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. First of all, how many flights were there 16 over the area north of the S-10s during this time 17 period? 18 A. There was one investigation, I can't 19 remember whether we conducted it over one day or two 20 days. It was no more than two days and it may have 21 all been done in one day. 22 Q. Do you recall the approximate date of 23 those one or two days? 24 A. I could refer to my field notes and get 25 the exact day or the Larsen report and get the exact 132 1 day. 2 It was either in the latter part of 1989 3 or the very first part of 1990. 4 Q. Can you describe the geographic area that 5 was covered in this one or two day investigation? 6 A. Generally it was the extreme southern end 7 of Water Conservation Area 1 and extending for a 8 distance approximately a third to a half north along 9 the eastern and western canals that formed the 10 boundary of WCA-1. 11 Q. When you say one third to one half, are 12 you referring to one third or one half of the 13 conservation area? 14 A. Of the eastern or western boundary of the 15 conservation area, yes, sir. 16 Q. Other than the boundaries, were you 17 looking at any of the interior sections of 18 Conservation Area 1? 19 A. No. 20 Q. How wide a berth, if you will, of the 21 boundaries were you looking at or investigating? 22 A. From the perimeter canal and levee several 23 miles. 24 Q. What data were you collecting during the 25 one or two day investigation? 133 1 A. We were collecting data on the occurrence 2 of cattail and other species associated with areas 3 where it was growing. 4 Q. Where cattail is growing? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. What other data were you collecting? 7 A. Data on their location. 8 Q. Any other data that was collected? 9 A. Location, species, estimate of percent 10 cover and a verification of or calibration of the 11 Loran unit that was in the helicopter. 12 Q. Was there any water level data collected 13 during this investigation? 14 A. No specific water level data, no, sir. 15 Q. Was there any water quality data collected 16 during this investigation? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Am I correct you were utilizing a Loran to 19 determine location? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. What were you doing to calibrate the 22 Loran? 23 A. Paul Larsen actually calibrated the Loran 24 and took the measurements on location. 25 Q. How were you identifying species? 134 1 A. Visually. 2 Q. Were these visual identifications done 3 from the helicopter? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Was there any touchdowns within Area 1 6 during this one or two day investigation? 7 A. No. As I recall, the only touchdown, and 8 I don't recall whether we specifically actually 9 touched down or hovered but it was on a fixed or a 10 known location in the bend of the levees that 11 separate Water Conservation Area 1 and 2, that Paul 12 Larsen knew the location of and used that to 13 calibrate the Loran. 14 Q. What height were you flying at while you 15 were making the visual identifications of the 16 species? 17 A. I was in the back seat looking out the 18 side of the helicopter so I couldn't see the 19 altimeter. I don't know exactly what height we were 20 flying at. 21 We were flying at various altitudes. I 22 mean, the helicopter was going up and down. 23 Q. Do you recall approximately what range of 24 heights you were flying at when you were recording 25 your observations? 135 1 A. Generally it would have been several 2 hundred feet, several hundreds of feet. 3 Q. How were you recording the information or 4 data that you were collecting with regard to species 5 identification and/or percent cover? 6 A. We were flying a series of north-south 7 transect, aerial transect lines that began at the 8 levee between 1 and 2 and we would fly until we noted 9 a vegetation change. And at that point we would 10 hover and Paul Larsen would record the location on 11 the Loran reading of that vegetation change. And we 12 would estimate the percent cover of the species that 13 occurred in that zone. It was a visual estimate of 14 general percent cover. 15 Q. In the zone, are you referring to the zone 16 that you would have just flown over? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. How wide were these transects that you 19 were flying or visually observing? 20 A. The transect essentially consisted of the 21 area that we could immediately see east and west 22 outside of the helicopter. So we were looking down 23 at an approximately 45 degree angle or so and trying 24 to give an accurate characterization of the 25 vegetation within that band. 136 1 Q. Do you know the approximate width that 2 band would be? 3 A. This is just an estimate as I sit here, 4 but I would say it would be in the order of a 5 thousand feet plus or minus. 6 Q. You indicated you were flying north to 7 south transects. You said you began the transects at 8 the levee between 1 and 2. Would you be flying south 9 to north transects? Was that how it was being 10 conducted? 11 A. It was essentially south to north. I 12 don't recall whether we then flew over and flew north 13 to south. I think it was essentially south to north. 14 Q. Did you fly more than one transect on, 15 say, the eastern side of Area 2A -- I am sorry, Area 16 1, or was there only a single transect that you ran 17 along the perimeter? 18 MR. KOBELINSKI: Paul, again, I will 19 object to the line only to the extent the report 20 literally has the Loran coordinates and transects 21 drawn on to the Water Conservation Area 1 figure 22 along with all the notes, et cetera. 23 If you just look at the report, it has 24 answers to all these questions. So I would either 25 just let him look at the report if you want to 137 1 refresh his recollection or just look at the report 2 itself for the answers. 3 MR. NETTLETON: This is in the Larsen 4 report? 5 MR. KOBELINSKI: Yes. 6 BY MR. NETTLETON: 7 Q. How were you going about determining the 8 estimate of percent cover of a particular area? 9 A. Visually. 10 Q. When you say a percent cover, are you 11 referring to percent cover of a particular species or 12 percent cover of vegetation over the given area? 13 A. We were trying to characterize the general 14 percent cover of the species over the area. 15 Q. What species were you identifying? 16 A. As I mentioned, we were primarily 17 interested in determining the geographic extent and 18 density of cattail, so that was the primary focus. 19 And we were looking at cattail. As we saw other 20 species that were associated within that band or that 21 occurred within that band, we would record those. 22 Again, all of that is indicated in the 23 report. There would be sawgrass, pickerelweed, 24 Sagittaria. 25 Q. These other species were also recorded as 138 1 a percent of coverage for the area? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Was there any subsequent ground truthing 4 of any form to verify the percent coverage that you 5 estimated from your visual observations? 6 A. Not within WCA-1 that was associated with 7 that study. 8 Q. And the results of this particular 9 investigation are set forth in a report, is that 10 correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Are you one of the authors of that report? 13 A. I believe that Paul Larsen authored those 14 reports. 15 Q. Do you recall the approximate date of the 16 report for this particular investigation? 17 A. It would have either been late 1989 or 18 early 1990. 19 Q. What was your involvement if any in 20 preparing that report? 21 A. I assisted in the field determinations and 22 Paul Larsen prepared the report. 23 Q. Did you review any drafts of the report? 24 A. No. 25 MR. KOBELINSKI: Could we take a five 139 1 minute mid-morning break? 2 MR. NETTLETON: Sure. 3 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 4 after which the following proceedings 5 were had) 6 BY MR. NETTLETON: 7 Q. The next activity that you mentioned to 8 perform the task of looking at the cattail occurrence 9 was investigating the northern area of 2A again to 10 determine cattail extent. 11 Can you tell me approximately when that 12 occurred? 13 A. I believe that would have been in the 14 early part of 1990. 15 Q. You said this was primarily by helicopter 16 with some selective ground truthing, is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. So this particular investigation did 19 involve collection of data, is that correct, in Area 20 2A? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Approximately how many days were involved 23 in this investigation, field investigation? 24 A. As I recall, it was a one to two day 25 event. 140 1 Q. In proximity to your investigation in Area 2 1, proximity of time, how long after your 3 investigation of Area 1 was this, approximately, 4 again? 5 A. It was within the next half year after 6 that, as I recall. 7 Q. Who other than yourself was involved in 8 this investigation in Area 2A? 9 A. I believe Dr. Bill Grey again. 10 Q. Anybody else? 11 A. Paul Larsen. 12 Q. What data was collected during this 13 investigation of northern Area 2A? 14 A. Essentially the same data that we 15 described and just went over in the southern part of 16 1A -- I mean the southern part of 1. 17 Q. So on this investigation you collected 18 data on what species, estimate of percent cover and 19 data for calibration of the Loran? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. What type of flight patterns were used in 22 this particular investigation? Were transects flown 23 again? 24 A. Essentially north-south transects 25 extending from the levee between Water Conservation 141 1 Area 1 and 2 and extending south. 2 Q. How far south did you run your transects 3 approximately? 4 A. Approximately five or ten miles. 5 Q. Was the recordation of data essentially 6 the same as that which you described for Area 1 7 investigation? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You mentioned that in this particular 10 investigation there was some selective ground 11 truthing. What ground truthing was involved? 12 A. Either in this survey or in other 13 reconnaissance or helicopter surveys in this general 14 time period, if we were not able to tell for certain 15 what the species was from the air, we would fly down 16 very close and on occasion we would land to check a 17 species identification. 18 Q. Were species identification again done by 19 visual observation? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Other than these times when you would 22 hover down lower or actually land, were you generally 23 making these visual observations from the same 1 to 24 200 feet altitude? 25 A. I don't recall saying 1 to 200 feet but 142 1 several hundred feet. 2 Q. Okay, several hundred feet. 3 A. To lower. It varied. 4 Q. And the percent cover again was determined 5 by visual observation? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Was there any ground truthing involved in 8 verifying the percent coverage data? 9 A. No. 10 Q. During this investigation into the 11 northern area of 2A in early 1990, was any data 12 collected on water quality? 13 A. No, not associated with this study. 14 Q. Was any data collected during this 15 investigation as to water levels? 16 A. Not that I specifically recall. If we did 17 happen to land, we may have recorded the area is dry 18 or particular water depth but it would have been an 19 incidental notation. 20 Q. The transects that were flown in this 21 particular investigation, did they join together to 22 cover the entire northern boundary of Area 2A? 23 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form of 24 the question to the extent, I don't know what you 25 mean by joined together. 143 1 Q. Did the transects that you ran for this 2 investigation result in coverage of the entire 3 geographic area of northern 2A down five to ten miles 4 south of that northern boundary? 5 A. The transects were located and the length 6 of the transects were determined by the area in which 7 cattail occurred. Once we ran out of any significant 8 presence of cattail we essentially terminated the 9 transect. 10 Q. So flying south you would terminate the 11 transect at the end of any significant cattail, is 12 that correct? 13 A. That's correct. We would fly first beyond 14 that just to assure ourselves that we were out of the 15 area where there was any cattail occurrence other 16 than occasional or sporadic. 17 Q. How far south would you go beyond the end 18 of the transect to insure that you had actually 19 reached the end of the cattail coverage? 20 A. We probably flew at or in some instances 21 beyond the midpoint north-south of WCA-2A. 22 Q. Would the same be true from a generally 23 east-west direction on starting your transects, that 24 you went to wherever you saw the end of the cattail, 25 significant cattail coverage, and that was the last 144 1 transect that you would run? 2 A. I am sorry, would you repeat that 3 question? 4 Q. How many transects were run north to south 5 approximately? 6 A. I don't recall. I believe that they are 7 listed in the report. 8 It would have been a similar spacing to 9 what was done in the survey of WCA-1 and that was 10 done in the July 1989 original Larsen helicopter 11 survey. It would have been more than 6, less than 12 12 or 15, in that magnitude. 13 Q. What was, if you recall, the westernmost 14 transect that was run? 15 MR. KOBELINSKI: Locationwise? 16 MR. NETTLETON: Location. 17 Q. Was it run along the western boundary of 18 Area 2A? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Was there a transect run along the eastern 21 boundary of Area 2A? 22 A. Generally, yes. 23 Q. The results of this particular 24 investigation are contained in a report by Paul 25 Larsen, is that correct? 145 1 A. Either a report or a map of those results, 2 I believe. 3 Q. Do you recall whether or not there was an 4 actual report prepared? 5 A. I believe there was, but I am not 6 absolutely certain. 7 Q. Do you recall seeing a report which 8 contained information concerning the methodologies 9 and the process that you went through in collecting 10 the data for this particular investigation? 11 A. The methodology that we followed in this 12 one was the same as we reported for Loxahatchee. 13 Q. I understand that, but my question is do 14 you recall seeing a report specifically related to 15 this investigation in 2A which laid out that same 16 information? 17 A. I believe there was, but I am not 18 absolutely sure about that. 19 Q. Would I be correct that you would not have 20 been involved in preparing any such report if it 21 exists, the actual report itself? 22 MR. KOBELINSKI: Only a report that didn't 23 exist. 24 A. I did not prepare any report that didn't 25 exist. 146 1 Q. And how do you know that? 2 MR. KOBELINSKI: Isn't it true that you 3 don't know that. 4 A. Paul Larsen recorded the data for these 5 series of investigations and any reports that were 6 prepared were prepared by Paul Larsen, and my 7 involvement was in the visual estimates of the extent 8 of cattail. 9 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times 10 it was necessary to touch down for purposes of 11 specifically identifying species? 12 A. Infrequently. 13 Q. What species were generally involved where 14 you were required to touchdown? 15 A. As I recall, it was not possible from the 16 air to determine the specific species of smartweed, 17 as an example, and we would have touched down to 18 perhaps look at it. There may have been others, but 19 that's an example. 20 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record. 21 (Discussion off the record) 22 BY MR. NETTLETON: 23 Q. The next activity that you mentioned, Dr. 24 Dennis, was assisting with some ground truthing for 25 remote sensing analysis being performed by ERIM. 147 1 Am I correct that occurred in 2 approximately 1990? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Can you describe for me what your 5 involvement was in that activity? 6 A. It was principally to assist ERIM in the 7 review and picking of verifiable training stations 8 for their remote sensing analysis. 9 Q. What do you mean by training stations? 10 A. In conducting satellite imagery analysis, 11 one of the steps that is typically gone through is to 12 pick specific known points and sites on the ground 13 and determine what is there and then you have a known 14 vegetation type. And this you use in conducting your 15 overall vegetation analysis and classification going 16 through the standard satellite image classification 17 procedures. 18 Q. How many training stations were used or 19 chosen? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Do you recall approximately? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You said you were involved in assisting 24 them in picking these training stations. How did you 25 go about assisting them in that regard? 148 1 A. What we -- this involves my involvement 2 with them. They may have done other things that I 3 was not involved in. 4 But my involvement was to go out with them 5 and pick areas that were representative of a specific 6 vegetation type. So we would, for instance, pick an 7 area that was essentially a solid sawgrass area and 8 we would record the Loran coordinates on that. 9 Then we would pick an area that was 10 predominantly cattail and record the location on 11 that. 12 So we would go to different vegetation 13 stands and vegetation communities to give them data 14 on what species were occurring there so they can use 15 that in their analysis. 16 Q. And it was a Loran that was used to 17 determine location, is that correct? 18 A. Yes. As I recall, Paul Larsen was also 19 along on those and he basically would record the 20 Loran readings. 21 I was essentially a back seat helicopter 22 person. 23 Q. Were these Loran coordinates recorded from 24 the air? 25 A. As I recall, they were typically recorded 149 1 by hovering in the air. 2 Q. What was the approximate size or dimension 3 of the training stations that were defined by this 4 activity? 5 A. We would try to pick as large an area as 6 we could that had a consistent vegetation type in it. 7 So we were interested in finding areas that were at 8 least 10 or more acres in size, as large an area as 9 we could that was homogeneous. 10 Q. Was there any guidelines you were 11 following as far as actually defining the size of a 12 particular training station that you were locating? 13 A. I don't recall. ERIM may have had that 14 information. I don't recall there being a specific 15 size requirement given to us. 16 Q. The training stations that you were 17 locating with the Loran, was there only a single 18 Loran coordinate recorded for a particular station? 19 A. I don't recall. My involvement was to 20 visually pick the areas and verify the vegetation 21 from the helicopter. And I was not working with the 22 maps or whatever sources that were being used for 23 verifying or picking the spot. 24 Q. Other than locating areas of homogeneous 25 cattail or sawgrass, did you locate any other types 150 1 of vegetative cover areas for training stations? 2 A. As I recall, we were trying to locate 3 primarily homogeneous stands of species and we may 4 have located some others or they may have recorded 5 some others. Again, my involvement was to assist in 6 picking areas that were generally homogeneous, and 7 those were the two species that I recall that were of 8 primary interest. 9 There may have been in other areas that 10 they recorded and took data on that we discussed or 11 said, this area is composed of this or that, but I 12 don't recall any others specifically. 13 Q. What about, were any training stations 14 located in areas of mixed cattail and sawgrass where 15 you would estimate the percentage cover? 16 A. There may have been but I don't recall 17 specifically. 18 Q. So you don't actually recall defining such 19 an area during this activity? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Approximately how long or how many trips 22 were involved in this activity where you were 23 assisting ERIM? 24 A. In total there may have been a half a 25 dozen, more or less. 151 1 Q. A half a dozen trips? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Approximately how many days were involved? 4 A. All or parts of half a dozen, more or 5 less, days. 6 Q. Were they sequential in the sense that 7 this was all done in approximately a one week period? 8 A. No. The total number of trips that I gave 9 you was probably over a longer period of time than 10 that which extended from when they began their study 11 to when they were producing their final draft maps. 12 Q. When did they produce their final draft 13 maps approximately? 14 A. In 1990, I believe. 15 Q. Do you recall any given month, season? 16 A. The closest that I can come right now is 17 mid to late 1990. 18 Q. When did they begin their work on this 19 matter? 20 A. As I recall, it was in the earlier part of 21 1990. 22 Q. Do you know what the dates of the remotely 23 sensed data was? 24 A. Again, I haven't reviewed that information 25 in some time. I don't recall specifically. 152 1 Q. Have you seen the remotely sensed data 2 prior to your activity in assisting them in ground 3 truthing activities, or, excuse me, in locating 4 training stations? 5 A. I am not sure I understand your question. 6 Q. Had you seen the remotely sensed data 7 prior to going out in the field with ERIM 8 representatives as you have described? 9 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you talking about 10 data, a bunch of numbers, or a map? 11 MR. NETTLETON: Any data. 12 A. During the time period in which I assisted 13 ERIM I saw some satellite scenes and classifications. 14 Q. Other than your assistance in locating the 15 training stations as you have discussed, were you or 16 anyone else at BDA involved in any other type of 17 ground truthing activities with regard to ERIM's 18 work? 19 A. During the latter stages of their study 20 when they had some draft maps produced we assisted 21 them in ground truthing those draft maps. 22 Q. Do you recall whether the draft maps were 23 altered as a result of the ground truthing that was 24 conducted? 25 A. I would assume that the final maps were 153 1 produced taking into account the results of the 2 ground truthing that was done. 3 Q. This ground truthing that occurred 4 subsequent to the draft maps being produced, was that 5 done by helicopter? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Approximately how many trips were involved 8 that you are aware of that you were involved in? 9 A. That would have been within the same 10 number that I previously gave you. 11 Q. Who else other than yourself was involved 12 in any of these ground truthing activities relating 13 to the ERIM remote sensing data. 14 A. It was principally Paul Larsen and myself. 15 There may have been a day that I couldn't attend and 16 someone else from our company accompanied them. But 17 I don't recall specifically if that is the case. 18 Principally it was my involvement and Paul Larsen's 19 involvement. 20 Q. Was Jackie Ott also present during these 21 activities? 22 A. Yes, she was the ERIM person that we 23 coordinated with that was responsible for that part 24 of the investigation. 25 Q. Do you recall how many categories the 154 1 final ERIM map laid out? 2 A. No, I don't. 3 Q. What is the geographic scope of the ERIM 4 map? 5 A. I believe that it generally covered the 6 Water Conservation Areas. 7 Q. All three Water Conservation Areas? 8 A. That's my recollection. 9 Q. Did it include the Park? 10 A. I was trying remember as you were asking 11 me the other question whether it did or not. I know 12 we did not conduct any aerial reconnaissance or 13 inspections of the Park, I didn't, as associated with 14 it. 15 Whether or not the Park was included on 16 the final maps, I don't specifically recall. I am 17 inclined to think that it covered principally the 18 three Water Conservation Areas. 19 Q. During these six or so trips that you made 20 in ground truthing as well as locating training 21 stations, did any of those activities occur in area 3 22 or 3A? 23 A. As I recall, we did look at some areas in 24 Water Conservation Area 3. 25 Q. Did this activity also include ground 155 1 truthing or locating training stations in Area 1? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Am I correct then that any of the 4 activities related to locating training stations or 5 ground truthing subsequent to the production of the 6 draft maps occurred in Areas 2 and 3? 7 A. I am sorry, would you repeat the question? 8 MR. NETTLETON: Read it back, please 9 (The question referred to was 10 thereupon read by the reporter 11 as above recorded) 12 A. ERIM personnel picked and selected their 13 training stations. And I don't know, and I don't 14 believe I have ever seen the results of their 15 specific training station locations. 16 Q. My question is directed to your activity. 17 A. Okay. I couldn't tell from your question, 18 I want to make sure that -- 19 Q. Okay. I am referring to the six trips, 20 approximately six trips that you mentioned where you 21 were assisting them in locating training stations and 22 in ground truthing subsequent to the development of 23 the draft maps. Were all of those activities 24 conducted in Areas 2 and 3? 25 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 156 1 Q. Were any of those activities conducted in 2 areas 2B or 3B? 3 A. We may have looked at sites in 2B and 3B. 4 As I recall the process that we followed was 5 generally to fly around Water Conservation Area 2 and 6 3, including 2A -- I mean 2B and 3B and look at 7 possible training sites. 8 Q. During these six or so trips where you 9 were assisting ERIM, was there any water quality data 10 collected? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was there any water level data collected? 13 A. If it was it was an incidental field note 14 and not part of the primary mission. 15 Q. Do you have any specific recollection of 16 collecting any water level or other hydrology type 17 data during these trips? 18 A. No. 19 MR. NETTLETON: Off the record. 20 (Discussion off the record) 21 BY MR. NETTLETON: 22 Q. Did you have any input into the drafting 23 or revisions of any drafts of ERIM's report? 24 A. No, I did not. 25 Q. Did you provide any comments on any of the 157 1 draft ERIM reports other than the data you might have 2 collected in the ground truthing exercise? 3 A. To ERIM? 4 Q. Right. 5 A. I don't recall providing any direct 6 written comments to ERIM. 7 Q. How about oral comments? 8 A. Only to the extent that we may have been 9 discussing selection of their training stations or 10 ground truthing of their draft maps or they may have 11 called on occasion to ask for clarification on some 12 data or notation that they had made during our field 13 visits. 14 Q. Did you engage in any analysis of the 15 methodology utilized by ERIM in developing their 16 vegetation maps from any remotely sensed data? 17 A. For ERIM? 18 Q. For anybody. 19 A. I reviewed their methodology and discussed 20 the methodology with counsel. 21 Q. What conclusions did you reach with regard 22 to the methodology being used by ERIM? 23 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, would you read 24 that question back. 25 (The question referred to was 158 1 thereupon read by the reporter 2 as above recorded) 3 A. As I discussed with counsel? 4 Q. No, I am just asking whether you discussed 5 it with counsel or not, I am not asking for your 6 actual communications. 7 I am asking what conclusions you reached 8 as a result of your review of ERIM's methodology, 9 whether or not you discussed them with counsel. 10 A. In general I felt that the logic and 11 general methodology that they were employing was 12 sound. 13 I had a question concerning the ability to 14 discern from the satellite image the specific 15 vegetation species as they might occur in different 16 parts of their growth stages. 17 And I also believed there was a limitation 18 on the resolution of the areas that they were able to 19 discern and map in their study. 20 Q. What was the resolution being used? 21 A. Basically it was the resolution of 22 Landsat, as I recall, Landsat photography. 23 Q. Do you recall what the resolution was? 24 A. Basically the issue was how small an area 25 could be adequately mapped, what resolution was ERIM 159 1 using in its mapping exercise, what area was its 2 smallest area of resolution. 3 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you asking for pixel 4 size? 5 MR. NETTLETON: Thanks. 6 BY MR. NETTLETON: 7 Q. What were the pixel sizes? 8 A. I believe that the Landsat pixel sizes are 9 in the neighborhood of 60 meters or so. 10 Q. 60 by 60 meters? 11 A. Yes. That's my recollection. I might 12 need to go back and verify that. 13 Q. What was your concern about the ability to 14 discern the specific vegetative species that might 15 occur during different parts of the growth stage? 16 A. Depending on the year and the time of 17 year, the amount of water present on the particular 18 Landsat scene, cattail could be in a new growth 19 phase, an existing mature growth phase, you could 20 have areas where there was senescent cattails 21 present, and you could have cattails in differing 22 densities. 23 And those are all factors that need to be 24 taken into account in mapping of cattail. 25 Q. Were those factors taken into account by 160 1 ERIM when they prepared their map? 2 A. I think they took those into account as 3 best they could, and they certainly were aware of 4 those factors. And they took them into account, I 5 believe, to the best of their ability given inherent 6 limitations on the format in which they were working. 7 Q. Other than homogeneous stands of cattail 8 or sawgrass, were other categories of vegetation 9 included on ERIM's map? 10 A. As I recall, they primarily depicted areas 11 of cattail. 12 Q. And the areas of cattail that were 13 depicted, were they limited to homogeneous 14 communities of cattails? 15 A. As I recall, they depicted areas of 16 cattail. I don't recall whether they specifically 17 provided any different classes. 18 Q. In reviewing the draft and final maps 19 prepared by ERIM is it your recollection that there 20 were only essentially two categories depicted on the 21 maps, cattail and non-cattail? 22 A. That's my general recollection. 23 Q. Do you recall the percentage or 24 approximate percentage cattail cover that would be 25 necessary in order to be categorized as cattail on 161 1 the ERIM map? 2 A. It would have been the areas of denser 3 cattail or areas dominated principally by cattail 4 that were depicted. 5 Q. Am I correct that the areas depicted then 6 would not include areas that were, say, less than 50 7 percent cattail in coverage? 8 A. I don't recall whether 50 percent was used 9 and I don't recall if they described a particular 10 percentage. 11 Q. Based on your review of the draft and 12 final maps produced by ERIM, what was the approximate 13 acreage or hectares of cattail that were found in 14 Area 2A? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Do you recall the approximate area of 17 coverage, meaning in terms of rough estimate of 18 percentage of Area 2A that showed cattail coverage on 19 the ERIM map? 20 A. It was generally as I recall in the 21 northern part of 2A. Beyond that I don't recall. It 22 has been a long time since I have looked at the 23 details of that report. 24 Q. Do you recall whether there were cattail 25 depicted on the map in the southern area of 2A? 162 1 A. I don't recall the specifics of those maps 2 beyond what I have already disclosed to you. 3 Q. Were there cattail on the maps depicted in 4 Area 3? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Were there cattails on the map depicted in 7 Area 1? 8 A. I believe they were in the southern part 9 of 1. 10 Q. The next activity you described was the 11 mapping activity that you went through which 12 ultimately led to development of the 1991 vegetative 13 map. 14 Can you generally describe for me what 15 activities you and others at BDA engaged in in order 16 to develop that 1991 map? 17 MR. KOBELINSKI: Paul, just briefly, it is 18 five to twelve. 19 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record. 20 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 21 after which the following proceedings 22 were had) 23 MR. NETTLETON: I think I had a pending 24 question. 25 (The question referred to was 163 1 thereupon read by the reporter 2 as above recorded) 3 BY MR. NETTLETON: 4 Q. Let me not just limit it to BDA if others 5 were involved in that activity too. Just give me a 6 general description of what activities were 7 undertaken to develop that map. 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 We essentially did the following: We 10 obtained color infrared aerial photography and we 11 conducted helicopter surveys, airboat surveys and 12 sought the input of others on where have they seen 13 cattail growing. 14 And we compiled that information in a GIS 15 format. 16 Q. Was the first activity undertaken the 17 obtaining of the color infrared aerial photography? 18 A. That was among the first. 19 Q. Can you describe how the photography was 20 obtained, what type of aircraft was utilized? 21 A. An airplane. 22 Q. What type of airplane? 23 A. I don't recall the specific type of 24 airplane. 25 Q. What type of camera was utilized? 164 1 A. It was a nine by nine format aerial 2 camera. 3 Q. When you say nine by nine, what does that 4 refer to? 5 A. That is the size, nine inch by nine inch 6 format. 7 Q. What types of lenses were used? 8 A. I don't recall the specifics of the 9 lenses. 10 Q. Were any filters used during the 11 photography? 12 A. I believe they were but I don't recall 13 what lens-filter combination they used. That work 14 was contracted out and I believe that we may have 15 provided information on that. I just don't have it 16 in my head right now. 17 Q. Who did you contract with to conduct the 18 aerial photography? Let me strike that. 19 Who conducted the aerial photography? 20 (Pause) 21 A. I will have to go back and check. I know 22 Aerial Cartographics of America conducted the 1993 23 photography. 24 And I know that's not the question you 25 asked. I will have to go back and check to see 165 1 whether they are the ones that conducted the '91-'92 2 photography or whether there was another group. 3 Q. Did you or anyone at BDA have any input 4 into the methodologies utilized by whoever it was who 5 conducted the aerial photography? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What was your input? 8 A. We specified the area of coverage and the 9 scale, the type of photography and specifications 10 concerning cloud cover and time of year. 11 Q. Was that the extent of your input? 12 A. That was generally what we asked for. 13 Q. Was the aerial photographer under contract 14 with BDA? 15 A. I am not sure. I remember Paul Larsen I 16 believe being involved and to some degree obtaining 17 that initial set of photography, and I don't recall 18 specifically whether they were contracted with us or 19 with Paul. 20 Again, I believe that information has been 21 provided and I can go through the documents and 22 probably find answers to those questions for you. 23 Q. Did the aerial photographer understand the 24 purpose of what the photography was going to be used 25 for? 166 1 A. I believe they did, yes. 2 Q. Were there discussions between yourself 3 and the aerial photographer concerning the 4 appropriate methodology to be used for obtaining 5 appropriate photographs? 6 A. I believe so, yes. We discussed that the 7 purpose was for vegetation mapping. 8 Q. Were there any written specifications or 9 anything similar to that that were provided to the 10 aerial photographer by you or someone else at BDA or 11 Paul Larsen? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. And those would have included the areas 14 that you just mentioned? 15 A. I believe so. 16 Q. What was the area of coverage for the '91 17 map? 18 A. Again, I believe that the map with the 19 flight lines has been provided that would give you 20 the exact area of coverage. 21 Q. Do you recall what it was? 22 A. Generally I recall that it was, covered 23 Water Conservation Area 1, 2B, parts of 3. 24 Q. Any parts of the Park? 25 A. No. 167 1 Q. What was the scale that was specified? 2 A. Let me clarify, if there was any part of 3 the Park included, it was as an overlap of one of the 4 photographs. The Park was not specifically flown. 5 The scale was in the order of 1 to 36,000. 6 And again I don't recall whether, exactly which set 7 of photography I am recalling that on. If it varied 8 from that it was still in that general range of a 9 scale. 10 Q. Is that 36,000 feet? 11 A. It is 1 to 36,000 which -- 12 Q. It doesn't matter. 13 One foot would equal 36,000 feet, is 14 that -- 15 A. No. 16 Q. Explain what that means. 17 A. One inch would equal 3,000 feet on the 18 image, if it is 1 to 36,000 scale. You essentially 19 divide the scale by 12. 20 Q. What type of photography was specified? 21 A. Color infrared. 22 Q. Was that used for all of the photography 23 that was taken? 24 A. That's the only type we had flown. 25 Q. What were the specifications concerning 168 1 cloud cover? 2 A. We had a minimum, or a maximum cloud cover 3 specified in the request. I don't recall what the 4 specific cloud cover was. 5 Q. How was that quantified? 6 A. Less than a certain percent. 7 Q. What was the time of year specified? 8 A. Generally whenever they could get good 9 cloud-free flying conditions in the early winter 10 months. I believe some of the photography was taken 11 in February and perhaps some of it in early March. 12 Q. Would this be in February and March of 13 1991? 14 A. I believe that most of the photography was 15 flown in I believe February of 1991 and there may 16 have been some portions, smaller portions that were 17 flown in March of 1992. 18 Q. In March of '92? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What was the reason for having some 21 portions flown in March of 1992? 22 A. As I recall, we didn't get all of the 23 coverage flown in 1991 that we had wanted. 24 Q. The areas that were photographed in March 25 1992, were those also photographed in February 1991? 169 1 A. I believe they were in addition to the 2 areas in February of 1991. The best information for 3 that is for us to review the flight lines. 4 Q. Do you recall the areas that were 5 photographed in March 1992? 6 A. Not specifically 7 I might also add that that photography has 8 been produced as part of the production of documents. 9 So we can go back and look at the particular aerial 10 photographs and determine what the exact dates were 11 and what the exact coverage was. 12 Q. What were the purposes of the helicopter 13 surveys that you mentioned? 14 A. Basically to ground truth, if you will, 15 the aerial photograph signatures and also to record 16 observations and locations of cattail. 17 Q. Would that also be the purpose of the 18 airboat surveys that you mentioned with regard to -- 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Can you describe for me generally how you 21 went about or what methodology you utilized in ground 22 truthing the aerial photography signatures, aerial 23 photo signatures? 24 A. You say I did or are you asking me? I am 25 sorry, I didn't understand. 170 1 Q. I believe you just mentioned that you used 2 the helicopter surveys and airboat surveys to ground 3 truth the aerial photography signatures. 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. I am asking what methodology or criteria 6 did you use for determining where to go for the 7 ground truthing. 8 A. We conducted general reconnaissance 9 overflights to assist us in locating where cattail 10 was growing. We did this in conjunction with a 11 photointerpretation of the aerial photographs. 12 So we would -- it was an iterative 13 process. We would look at aerials and we would find 14 areas where we thought the signatures indicated 15 cattail was growing. We would by helicopter or 16 airboat fly out to those areas and confirm our 17 photointerpretation. 18 As we were flying those missions we would 19 also pay attention to whether there were other areas 20 where cattail was occurring, and if we found other 21 areas of cattail occurrence, then we would come back 22 and look at the aerial photographs and identify the 23 signatures on those aerial photographs. 24 And that was done likewise with the 25 airboat. So we would go back and forth in an attempt 171 1 to try to capture and identify all the areas where we 2 would find cattail growing. 3 Q. Is it your belief that you actually 4 physically flew over every area that reflected 5 cattail growth based on the aerial photography? 6 A. We certainly attempted to, and I believe 7 we, as accurately as we could at that time, captured 8 the essence of the distribution of cattail. 9 Q. Were you during this 1991 mapping 10 activity, were you categorizing cattail by percentage 11 cover? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How was that percentage cover determined? 14 A. That process evolved as we were producing 15 or as we were identifying cattail occurrence and 16 distribution. 17 We began by identifying areas where either 18 we personally knew cattail was growing or we had 19 reports that cattail was growing. And we initially 20 went out and began to characterize those areas as 21 high, moderate or low density. 22 As the mapping effort proceeded that year 23 we began to refine those estimates of high, moderate 24 and low and attempted to put some percentages on 25 them. 172 1 So there was an evolving process of trying 2 to accurately depict the location and the general 3 density of cattail. 4 Q. In the final map that you produced from 5 this 1991 activity, does it break down cattail 6 coverage into three different densities or is there 7 more than that? 8 A. Actually, there is more than that. 9 Q. How were the percentages of cattail 10 distribution or density in a given area determined? 11 A. Visually. 12 Q. How many people other than yourself were 13 involved in visually observing these areas and 14 determining percentage cattail density? 15 A. It was done principally by Dr. Joe Birch 16 in our office or myself. There may have been some 17 others that assisted to some extent. But it was 18 generally the effort of Dr. Joe Birch and I. 19 Q. Did the areas that you personally were 20 determining cattail coverage density overlap to any 21 extent with areas that -- is Dr. or Mr. Birch? 22 A. Dr. Birch. 23 Q. -- that Dr. Birch was identifying? In 24 other words, did you both on separate occasions 25 happen to look at the same areas and determine 173 1 cattail coverage? 2 A. We would both, during the process of that 3 year, more or less, we both looked at the same 4 cattail areas, sometimes independently, if that is 5 your question. 6 Q. Let me try to rephrase the question. 7 For instance, did you take a specific 8 geographic area of the mapped area as kind of your 9 area to go out and do and then did Dr. Birch take 10 another area? 11 A. No. 12 Q. How was it determined which areas which of 13 you were looking at? 14 A. Dr. Birch was assigned the primary 15 responsibility for the entire cattail mapping 16 exercise, if you will. 17 Q. How much were you involved personally in 18 that particular identification? 19 A. My involvement essentially fell into these 20 areas. 21 I coordinated with Dr. Birch on the scope 22 of what we were trying to accomplish in the '91 23 cattail map, the methods, general methods that we 24 would use. 25 I would assist as he requested and from 174 1 time to time on my own review in looking at the 2 aerial photography and the particular delineations or 3 percent cover estimates that were developed. 4 I would report back areas where I had seen 5 cattail growing, give some general information on how 6 much was there, whether it was a large area, sparse, 7 generally, high density, whatever it might have been. 8 And I was involved in discussions 9 concerning the scale and type of aerial photography 10 and the coverage of the aerial photography, and then 11 general collaboration with Dr. Birch as the map was 12 being produced or the data was being gathered and put 13 in the GIS format. 14 And then I was involved in generally 15 reviewing the the mapped product with Dr. Birch to 16 assure myself that the procedures, methodologies that 17 we had discussed were implemented and followed and 18 that to the best of our collective abilities we had 19 produced a map that generally depicted the locations 20 and densities of cattail as we understood them during 21 that period of time. 22 Q. Am I correct, what you just described was 23 in essence your total involvement in the mapping 24 process that occurred in 1991? I think you went a 25 little beyond what my original question was. I just 175 1 want to make sure -- 2 A. I probably did and I apologize. 3 Q. That is all right. 4 A. I apologize to both counsel. 5 Q. I would like to go back to just clarify 6 one thing, and then we can break. 7 I am trying to get a feel for other than 8 Dr. Birch, were you actually involved in going out in 9 the field and reporting back your determination of 10 percentage of cattail coverage in a specific 11 geographic area that was ultimately included on the 12 map? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You mentioned other than Joe Birch and 15 yourself others may have assisted. How would these 16 others have assisted in this particular task of 17 determining cattail density in a given area? 18 A. They may have collaborated with Dr. Birch 19 in looking at a particular aerial photograph and 20 saying that this area looks like cattail or this area 21 doesn't, and here's what I think the percentage was. 22 It is typical to have that kind of 23 intraoffice collaboration going on. 24 The responsibility for assigning the 25 percentage value rested with Dr. Birch. 176 1 Q. Did he personally observe all of the areas 2 that were ultimately assigned any percentage value of 3 cattail? 4 A. Yes, he would have observed them either on 5 the aerial photography or in the field. 6 Q. Am I correct then that Dr. Birch did not 7 visually observe in the field all of the areas that 8 were assigned some percentage of cattail coverage on 9 the map? 10 A. Define for me areas. 11 Q. Any area depicted on your 1991 map which 12 indicates there is some percentage of cattail 13 coverage. 14 A. I may be suffering from a semantics issue. 15 Q. What don't you understand? 16 A. Dr. Birch reviewed on the aerials and in 17 the field all of the areas where cattail were mapped. 18 He undoubtedly did not inspect in detail each 19 specific meter on the ground of where they were 20 mapped. 21 Q. Or -- 22 A. That is that. 23 Q. -- in a helicopter overflight? 24 A. Or in a helicopter overflight. He would 25 have reviewed all of the areas either on the ground 177 1 or in an overflight. 2 Maybe I am splitting hairs, but trying to 3 make sure that you understand, he reviewed all -- 4 there were no areas where cattail were mapped in this 5 part of the conservation area or up here or there 6 that weren't ground truthed either from the ground or 7 the air. But I can't tell you that each square foot 8 of ground was actually detail inspected. 9 Is that clarification clear? 10 Q. To some extent. 11 Let me ask just one more question. You 12 have heard that before, haven't you. 13 Was there any verification exercises 14 performed on the ground to verify the accuracy of Dr. 15 Birch's determinations from his visual observations 16 of percent coverage of cattail in a given area? 17 MR. KOBELINSKI: When you say visual, you 18 are talking about his photointerpretation? 19 Q. My understanding of your testimony is that 20 Dr. Birch through visual observation determined 21 percentage of cattail density in a given area. Is 22 that not correct? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. That is correct. That's what I thought. 25 My question is was there ever any 178 1 verification exercises performed on the ground to 2 verify his determination of the percentage of cattail 3 coverage? 4 A. There were constant checks on the 5 vegetation cover estimates that were performed 6 throughout the year long, plus or minus, mapping 7 process. 8 I am not sure I understand the source of 9 your -- 10 Q. Let me give you another example. 11 MS. STARK: Off the record. 12 (Discussion off the record) 13 MR. KOBELINSKI: Are you saying was there 14 ground truthing on the ground truthing done? You are 15 losing me also. 16 MR. NETTLETON: No. 17 BY MR. NETTLETON: 18 Q. Let me give you an example of what I am 19 thinking about. 20 As a verification did anyone go to a 21 particular geographic area that was labeled, for 22 example, 50 percent cattail coverage and take any 23 size plot out of that area and do a vegetative count 24 of the amount of cattail or a biomass determination 25 of cattail versus other vegetation or anything of 179 1 that nature? 2 A. There may have been some incidental 3 analyses of that nature done but, no, that was not a 4 part of the verification. 5 Q. You said there were constant checks, 6 though. What checks were made? 7 A. We would identify an area from the aerial 8 photographs. We would map it, assign a cover value. 9 And then we would -- and initially high, moderate or 10 low value may have been assigned, and then we had to 11 go back and put some coverage estimates on that. 12 So one thing we were working out during 13 that '91 mapping effort was how to best describe the 14 percentages of cattail. 15 And so we would go back to an area that we 16 mapped and we looked and said, okay, here's what we 17 mapped it, do we still think that is correct. That 18 is the kind of check. 19 Q. Who would be involved in those kind of 20 checks? Would that again be Dr. Birch? 21 A. Principally Dr. Birch. 22 MR. NETTLETON: Why don't we break 23 (Luncheon recess) 24 25 180 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 1:20 p.m. 3 BY MR. NETTLETON: 4 Q. Dr. Dennis, with regard to the 1991 aerial 5 photography, were photographs taken of the entire 6 area mapped or only selected sections of the area 7 mapped? 8 A. I believe that there were areas that were 9 mapped that were not covered by the photography. 10 Q. Do you recall just generally 11 percentagewise how much of the area mapped, which 12 would be essentially the EPAs without the Park, what 13 percentage of that was not photographed? 14 A. I don't know that percentage. 15 Q. Was less than 50 percent of the area 16 mapped photographed? 17 A. More. 18 Q. Do you know what altitude the photographs 19 were taken at? 20 A. That would have been in the documentation. 21 I don't recall the altitude. 22 Q. Do you recall generally what it was within 23 hundreds of feet or anything? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you recall whether the altitude 181 1 remained constant for all the photographs that were 2 taken for the 1991 mapping? 3 A. All the '91 photography was shot at as 4 near the same altitude as the pilot could maintain. 5 Q. And the precise data concerning locations, 6 altitude and so forth would be contained in the 7 documentation from the aerial photographer? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Over your lunch break did it happen to 10 occur to you maybe who that aerial photographer was 11 for the 1991 mapping? 12 A. No, it didn't. 13 Q. For the 1991 mapping were you looking at 14 any species of vegetation other than cattail? Maybe 15 I should clarify my question. 16 Were you mapping any species of vegetation 17 other than cattail? 18 A. For the 1991 cattail map, no. 19 Q. Did you collect data concerning other 20 vegetative species during your 1991 mapping 21 activities which were simply not used in developing 22 the map itself? 23 A. You are referring to the 1991 cattail map? 24 Q. Right. 25 A. No, unless it was incidental notations or 182 1 information. 2 Q. Was there any water quality data collected 3 in conjunction with your 1991 mapping activities? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Was there any water level data collected 6 in conjunction with your 1991 mapping activities? 7 A. If it was, it was incidental notations. 8 Q. What precipitated the activity undertaken 9 to map for 1993? Why were you asked to go out and do 10 another mapping exercise of the conservation areas in 11 1993? 12 A. We noted some areas where cattail was 13 occurring in the latter '92 early '93 time period and 14 therefore we felt that to get an up-to-date 15 representation of the extent of cattail it would be 16 necessary to remap the area. 17 Q. Again, could you describe for me what 18 activities were undertaken in order to complete the 19 1993 mapping? 20 A. Yes. The 1993 map was produced by 21 obtaining an updated 1993 set of aerial photography 22 and conducting aerial and ground control and ground 23 truthing surveys from airboats, again taking the data 24 and entering it into a GIS format. 25 Q. Were any of these specifications and/or 183 1 methodology utilized for the aerial photography 2 changed between 1991 and 1993? 3 A. The general types and specifications were 4 the same or similar. The geographic area was 5 somewhat different. 6 Q. The 1993 mapping used color infrared 7 aerial photography, is that right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Was a nine by nine format aerial camera 10 used as well? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. The photography for the 1993 mapping was 13 conducted by Aerial Cartographers of America, is that 14 right? 15 A. Aerial Cartographics of America. 16 Q. Where is Aerial Cartographics located, 17 their business operation? 18 A. They have various localities or offices 19 throughout the United States, I believe. 20 Q. Which office were you dealing with? 21 A. The Orlando office. 22 Q. Who were the principal persons from that 23 office that were involved in the actual taking of the 24 photography? 25 A. I don't know. 184 1 Q. Did you use have any direct dealings with 2 them, discussions of any sort? 3 A. Not that I recall. 4 Q. Did Aerial Cartographics have a contract 5 with BDA to perform this 1993 aerial photography? 6 A. I believe so. 7 Q. Do you know what types of lenses or 8 filters were used in the 1993 photography? 9 A. Not specifically. 10 Q. Were you or anyone at BDA involved in 11 specifying the appropriate lenses or filters to use? 12 A. There are various filters that can be used 13 with color infrared aerial photography, and we may 14 have had general discussions with ACA concerning what 15 film-filter combinations were providing the best 16 clarification and resolution of vegetation based on 17 their recent experience and our experience. 18 Q. Based upon your experience what is the 19 best combination of film and filter to be used with 20 color infrared aerial photography for the best 21 resolution for vegetative mapping purposes, as was 22 this exercise? 23 A. The type that we ultimately decided to use 24 on this mission. The aerial photography that we got 25 back in 1993 was excellent. I don't recall what the 185 1 exact specifications were. 2 Q. Without specific regard to what was or 3 what was not used in either the 1991 or 1993 aerial 4 photography, can you just tell me from your 5 experience what is an appropriate if not the best 6 combination of film, filter or lenses to be used for 7 this type of an exercise? 8 A. I can tell you what lens and filters I 9 have used taking small format color infrared aerial 10 photography that typically work very well. 11 Q. Tell me what those combinations are. 12 A. Using a Hassalblad 70 millimeter camera, 13 we will often use a 40 millimeter Distagon lens with 14 either a Wratten 12 or a Wratten 15 filter. 15 Q. Any particular speed of film? 16 A. We use a particular Kodak color infrared 17 film and I don't recall the exact number on that film 18 right now. 19 Q. You said you have used this in small 20 format, is that what you referred to? 21 (Pause) 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What does small format mean? 24 A. Either 35 millimeter or 70 millimeter 25 aerial photography as opposed to the standard nine by 186 1 nine mapping cameras. 2 Q. Prior to the mapping done in 1991 or 1993 3 had you ever utilized nine by nine equipment before? 4 MR. KOBELINSKI: I object to the form of 5 the question to the extent you are saying utilized. 6 Does that mean has he operated, has he ever used film 7 taken from a nine by nine? 8 MR. NETTLETON: The latter, for purposes 9 of developing vegetation maps, or analyzing 10 vegetation. 11 A. I have never taken nine by nine aerial 12 photography personally. 13 We very commonly routinely use nine by 14 nine color infrared aerial photography in vegetation 15 mapping. 16 Q. Other than possible discussions on the 17 appropriate film-filter combinations and so forth, 18 did you or anyone else at BDA provide any other input 19 to ACA concerning the appropriate methodology to be 20 utilized for the aerial photography for the 1993 21 mapping exercise? 22 A. As I recall, there were discussions 23 concerning the use of a motion compensating camera 24 which they had, and also their use or ability to 25 locate the center of the photographic image with GPS 187 1 equipment located in the airplane. 2 Q. Was the motion compensating camera used in 3 the 1993 mapping? 4 A. Yes, I believe so. 5 Q. Was a motion compensating camera used in 6 the 1991 mapping? 7 A. I don't believe so, but I am not 8 absolutely sure. 9 Q. What were the nature of the discussions 10 concerning the ability to locate the center of the 11 photograph with GIS equipment in the airplane? 12 A. As I recall, they made that information 13 and knowledge available to us, that they had that 14 capacity. 15 Q. Was that capacity utilized? 16 A. I believe it was but I would have to go 17 back and double check. 18 Q. GPA, is that what we were referring to? 19 A. Yes. 20 THE COURT REPORTER: Counsel, did you say 21 GPA? 22 MR. NETTLETON: Yes. 23 A. I am sorry. I wasn't listening carefully 24 enough. I thought you said GPS. 25 Q. What is the GPS equipment in the airplane, 188 1 what does it do? 2 A. It is a global positioning system which 3 allows location determinations in real space. 4 Q. Was GPS equipment used in the 1991 5 mapping? 6 A. During the latter stages of the process, 7 yes, it was. 8 Q. Let me revert back to the 1991 mapping. 9 How was GPS utilized in the latter stages of the 10 process? 11 A. We used GPS to locate certain cattail 12 locations as a navigation and field identification 13 tool. 14 Q. Who operated the GPS equipment for the 15 1991 mapping? 16 A. Dr. Joe Birch. 17 Q. Was GPS used for the entire 1991 mapping? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What was used for those areas that did not 20 use GPS? 21 A. Either aerial photography or Loran. 22 Q. What mechanism was used again for the 1991 23 mapping for determining the location of the aerial 24 photography? 25 A. I am sorry, would you repeat the question? 189 1 Q. How was the location of a particular 2 photograph determined for the 1991 mapping? 3 A. By identifying some particular feature 4 such as levees, control structures, those types of 5 readily identifiable physical features. 6 Q. If that exercise were being used would 7 that indicate that there was no GPS equipment 8 utilized in the airplane used in the 1991 mapping? 9 A. We obtained GPS equipment sometime within 10 the time frame of constructing the 1991 cattail map 11 and when we obtained it and we began using it. 12 Q. Am I correct the GPS equipment was not 13 utilized in conjunction with or concurrently with the 14 taking of the aerial photographs? 15 A. I don't believe so. 16 Q. Again, still referring to the 1991 mapping 17 activity, you had also indicated that as part of that 18 activity you sought input from others on where they 19 saw cattail growing. Can you describe in a little 20 more detail what you meant by that, what input and 21 how you reacted to that input? 22 A. There were other scientists that were 23 conducting various investigations in the EPA during 24 that time period, and when there would be meetings in 25 which those scientists would be present it was not 190 1 uncommon for them to indicate that they had seen 2 cattail in this area or that area or the other area. 3 And we would take that information and see if we had 4 indeed mapped cattail in that area and captured it on 5 that map. 6 Q. If your looking at the map had suggested 7 that you had not mapped cattail, what would you do? 8 A. We would investigate that area and map it. 9 Q. Did that occur at any time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall how many times? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you recall how many areas that you 14 visited or approximately how many areas you visited 15 as a result of input from other scientists which 16 suggested cattail existed in a location which you had 17 not originally mapped as containing cattail? 18 A. No. And if I could clarify your question, 19 it might have been that it wasn't either mapped or we 20 hadn't investigated that area yet to map it. 21 Q. Am I correct there were some occasions 22 when you were advised by scientists working in the 23 EPA that certain areas contained cattails where your 24 map at that time did not indicate there were cattails 25 in that area following your mapping of that 191 1 particular area? 2 A. Yes, I believe that occurred on some 3 occasions. 4 Q. Do you recall of those occurrences what 5 the largest area of cattail you subsequently 6 discovered as a result of input from these other 7 scientists working in the area? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. Do you have any general range of what the 10 areas generally acreagewise were? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was there any generality to the percent 13 cover of cattail in the areas that you were directed 14 to by other scientists working in the area? 15 A. Would you rephrase that question, please? 16 Q. Did you find any similarity in the 17 coverage, percent coverage or density of the cattail 18 in the areas that you were referred to by scientists 19 working in the area? 20 A. Not that I recall. 21 Q. You have mentioned I think for both the 22 1991 map and the 1993 map that you compiled the 23 information into a GIS format, is that correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Can you describe for me what a GIS format 192 1 is? What does that mean? 2 A. GIS is geographic information system, and 3 it is a computer-based system for locating either a 4 point, a line or a polygon in real space and 5 capturing data associated with that line, point or 6 polygon. 7 Q. What do you mean by capturing data? 8 A. You can enumerate or list various 9 attributes to those locations. 10 Q. For instance, cattail coverage, is that 11 what you are referring to? 12 A. That would be a for instance. 13 Q. Does this computer based system then 14 essentially outline your geographic areas within the 15 map for whatever the given data is you are looking to 16 map? 17 A. Would you rephrase that question? 18 Q. Excuse my naivete. 19 Explain to me how the GIS format is 20 utilized in this exercise to develop a map. 21 A. The GIS format is one in which you can 22 enter either mapped data or tabular data into the 23 particular software system that forms the basis for 24 the particular GIS system. 25 That allows that capture of mapped 193 1 information or tabular information for then the 2 production of maps or tables from that data and it 3 allows for query of the information that's contained 4 in it to ask specific questions. 5 So the GIS system is a very powerful 6 relatively recently developed system which allows not 7 only the capture of data and the making of maps but 8 the asking of questions and analysis of the data. 9 Q. Give me an example of what you mean by 10 asking questions. 11 A. Sure. If you were interested in 12 determining the population estimate within a certain 13 distance of a particular road intersection, if you 14 had a map of the road grid and you had population 15 data for the area that was recorded geographically, 16 and you had those two data layers in your GIS system, 17 you could query the data base and say, or the system 18 and say, how many people live within five miles of 19 the intersection of Oak and Pine Street. And the 20 computer would go through its machinations and give 21 you the answer. 22 Q. So with regard to the information that you 23 collected and utilized in this exercise, you could 24 ask how many acres of cattail exist within Area 2A 25 and it would give you the answer? 194 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You mentioned that the 1993 mapping 3 covered a different geographic area. What was the 4 difference in the area from the 1991 mapping? 5 A. If I recall correctly, I believe I 6 indicated that the aerial photography covered a 7 different area. 8 Q. Okay. What was the difference in the 9 area? 10 A. The aerial photography that was taken in 11 1993 was not as extensivive as that taken in the 12 previous time period. 13 Q. Why was that? 14 A. Cost and prior knowledge. 15 Q. On a rough estimate would you say that 16 less than 50 percent of the area mapped in 1993 was 17 aerial photographed? 18 A. I think it was probably still more than 50 19 percent. Again, I would refer you to the flight 20 lines of exact aerial coverage. 21 Q. The ground truthing that was done for the 22 1993 mapping, was that again done by helicopter and 23 airboat? 24 A. And airplane. 25 Q. And airplane. 195 1 Was the ground truthing essentially the 2 same as what you described occurred for the 1991 3 mapping activity? 4 A. It included those activities. 5 Q. What additional activities were included 6 in the 1993 ground truthing? 7 A. As part of the 1993 cattail map 8 development and in a sense part of the ground 9 truthing, because we have been using ground truthing 10 in a rather broad generic sense, there was another 11 procedure that we implemented in performing the 1993 12 map that we had not utilized or utilized very 13 extensively in the 1991 map. 14 Q. What was that procedure? 15 A. That procedure was to fly in fixed wing 16 aircraft or record data while moving in an airboat on 17 cattail occurrence and density by recording that data 18 in a GPS data logger. 19 Q. Starting with the activity on an airboat, 20 describe for me how that was accomplished. 21 A. We would travel in an airboat and have a 22 GPS unit set up in the airboat and travel on certain 23 transects and record with a pen and bar code system 24 what the percentage estimate of cattail coverage was. 25 Each time an entry was made, it would 196 1 automatically record the latitude and longitude of 2 that notation. 3 Q. How was the percentage of cattail coverage 4 determined? 5 A. Visually. 6 Q. What do you mean by a pen and bar code 7 system, what is that? 8 A. Without getting into the esoteric 9 technical aspects of how it works, essentially there 10 is a GPS unit which you can attach or utilize with 11 bar codes, the same type of bar code system that is 12 used at your grocery store when you buy groceries and 13 you go through the checkout line and they go zip, 14 zip, zip, zip, and they go across all those little 15 bars and record how much each item cost. 16 Well, there is a system in which you can 17 develop your bar codes and specify this bar code will 18 be for 90 to 100 percent cattail, this bar code will 19 be for some other percentage cattail. 20 And then as you are actually conducting 21 the transect in the field you make your visual 22 observations, and as you make them, rather than 23 having to stop and record off of a GPS unit that only 24 reads out the latitude and longitude once you stop, 25 you can continue moving and make your visual 197 1 observation, make the pen notation across the 2 appropriate bar code for the percentage coverage that 3 you estimate. 4 That automatically records that point in 5 terms of its location and that data in terms of its 6 coverage in the GPS unit. 7 Q. How many different percentage coverage bar 8 codes were there for the 1993 mapping? 9 A. They are indicated on the 1993 cattail map 10 here. 11 MR. KOBELINSKI: Off the record. 12 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 13 after which the following proceedings 14 were had) 15 MR. NETTLETON: Let's go ahead and mark 16 this. 17 (Dennis Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked 18 for identification) 19 BY MR. NETTLETON: 20 Q. Dr. Dennis, referring to Exhibit 3, does 21 that refresh your recollection as to the number of 22 bar code categories there were for percent cattail 23 coverage for the 1993 mapping? 24 A. Yes, it does. 25 Q. What was the number? 198 1 A. Nine. 2 Q. Could you just for the record read out the 3 various categories? 4 A. Yes. They extend from a high of 90 to 100 5 percent and go in decreasing order as follows: 75 to 6 less than 90 percent, 50 to less than 75 percent, 25 7 to less than 50 percent, 10 to less than 25 percent, 8 5 to less than 10 percent, 1 to less than 5 percent, 9 .1 to less than 1 percent, and less than .1 percent. 10 Q. Am I correct that the determination of 11 which bar code to input into the GPS system on the 12 airboat was made by visual observation as you were 13 moving through the area? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Who was actually involved in doing these 16 visual observations and inputting the appropriate 17 cattail coverage into the system? 18 A. Dr. Joe Birch. 19 Q. Was anyone else involved in that activity? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you accompany Dr. Birch when he was 22 engaged in this activity? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How fast would the airboat be moving 25 during this exercise? 199 1 A. At various speeds depending on the density 2 of the vegetation and the depth of the water. 3 Q. Do you have a range of speeds it was 4 generally being done at? 5 A. There was no specific speed range that I 6 am aware of. It depended on the type of vegetation, 7 the density of the vegetation. 8 Q. You mentioned a similar activity was 9 undertaken by airplane, is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Were the same bar codes utilized for the 12 airplane visual observations? 13 A. The same categories, yes. 14 Q. Who conducted those activities from the 15 airplane, that is, determining a percentage? 16 A. Dr. Joe Birch. 17 Q. Do you know what type of airplane it was? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. What type was it? 20 A. It was a Cessna 180 Skywagon. 21 Q. Going back to the airboat activity in this 22 regard, was there a set parameter as far as distance 23 between inputs into percentage categories? In other 24 words, did you travel a given distance and then input 25 another percentage category or was it randomly chosen 200 1 as you moved down the transect? 2 A. There was not a fixed interval used. 3 Q. Was there an attempt to your knowledge 4 made to input a new bar code each time there was a 5 change from one of the nine categories to another as 6 you moved down the transect? 7 A. I don't understand the question. 8 Q. In other words, if Dr. Bi