DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 230 EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. DR. CRAFT, I WANT TO ASK YOU A FEW MORE QUESTIONS ON THE CESIUM DATA. FIRST, I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT THE APPENDIX ONE THAT APPEARS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE COMPOSITE EXHIBIT FIVE. IT SAYS APPENDIX ONE CONTINUED. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT'S CONTINUED FROM? A. THERE SHOULD BE ANOTHER PAGE THAT SAYS -- IT -- THE APPENDIX ONE WAS TWO PAGES, ESSENTIALLY--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND THIS IS THE SECOND PAGE OF IT. Q. OKAY. DO--- A. IT'S PROBABLY IN HERE SOMEWHERE. Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. I THINK THAT'S WHAT DR. MAFFEI IS INDICATING TO ME. IS THIS -- OKAY, THE VERY LAST PAGE, OR NEXT TO THE LAST PAGE IN THIS COMPOSITE EXHIBIT IS -- SAYS APPENDIX ONE, ALSO. A. OKAY. Q. AND THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST PAGE OF APPENDIX ONE, AND THIS IS THE SECOND PAGE--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---OF APPENDIX ONE? A. RIGHT. Q. ALL RIGHT. NORMALLY -- AREN'T THERE NORMALLY TWO DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 231 PEAKS IN CESIUM DATING? A. THERE CAN BE, BUT NOT -- I DON'T THINK NORMALLY THERE ARE TWO PEAKS. Q. NORMALLY, THERE'RE NOT. WHAT ARE THOSE TWO TIME PERIODS? A. OH, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ONE PEAK OCCURS IN 1964, WHICH IS -- WELL, '63-'64--- Q. SURE. A. ---THE PERIOD OF MAXIMUM PRODUCTION OF CESIUM 137 FROM WEAPONS TESTING. BUT SOME PEOPLE USE A '54 PEAK, WHICH WAS WHEN THE FIRST WEAPONS TESTING OCCURRED. SO, THAT'S WHEN CESIUM FIRST APPEARS IN THE PROFILE. Q. OKAY. JUST BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW WHICH CESIUM PEAK YOU'RE LOOKING AT? A. WELL, THE '63 PEAK WAS BY FAR MUCH BIGGER. SO, THAT'S THE ONE YOU WOULD KNOW; THE BIGGEST PEAK WOULD CORRESPOND TO THAT. AND THE SECOND ONE -- REALLY IT'S NOT TWO PEAKS, YOU LOOK FOR THE PEAK--- Q. OKAY. A. ---FROM '63, '64, THE PERIOD OF MAXIMUM DEPOSITION. BUT THE '54 PERIOD YOU'RE TALKING DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 232 ABOUT IS WHEN YOU FIRST SEE CESIUM IN THE PROFILE, WHEN IT FIRST -- JUST WHEN IT FIRST SHOWS UP--- Q. OKAY. A. ---CAUSE PRIOR TO '54, THERE WAS NO ABOVEGROUND WEAPONS TESTING, OR NO SIGNIFICANT ABOVEGROUND WEAPONS TESTING. Q. SO, THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST MARKER THAT YOU WOULD FIND. IT WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE A PEAK? A. RIGHT. IT'S WHEN IT SHOULD FIRST SHOW UP, WHEN YOU FIRST SEE IT IN THE PROFILE. Q. OKAY. NOW, MY NEXT QUESTION IS, YOU INDICATE IN YOUR LIST OF FIGURES -- YOU SAY FIGURE ONE AND YOU TALK ABOUT IT, AND THEN YOU SAY FIGURE TWO AND YOU TALK ABOUT IT -- THAT THE DEPTH DISTRIBUTION OF CESIUM IN REPRESENTATIVE SOIL CORES COLLECTED FROM THE NORTHERN AND CENTRAL EVERGLADES. HOW DID YOU KNOW WHICH WERE REPRESENTATIVE? A. ALL I MEANT BY REPRESENTATIVE WAS, OF ALL THE CESIUM DATA WE COLLECTED--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---I COULD NOT VERY WELL -- OR I DON'T THINK THE JOURNAL WOULD ACCEPT TWENTY OR EIGHTEEN CESIUM PROFILES. SO, I PULLED OUT WHAT I CONSIDERED WERE REPRESENTATIVE PROFILES TO SHOW IN GRAPHICAL FORM, DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 233 AND THEN THE OTHER DATA IS IN THE TABLE. SO, THAT'S ALL THAT MEANS IS--- Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THE "OTHER DATA IS IN THE TABLE," TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN. A. IN APPENDIX ONE. Q. OH, OKAY. SO, ALL THE DATA APPEARS IN APPENDIX ONE, BUT YOUR GRAPHS ONLY GRAPH ONES THAT ARE--- A. NO, THE DATA APPEARS IN THAT FIGURE AND IN APPENDIX ONE. INSTEAD OF JUST -- SEE, THE REVIEWERS WANTED TO SEE WHAT THE PROFILES LOOKED LIKE--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---SO, I PICKED OUT EIGHT OF THEM AND GRAPHED THEM AND SHOWED THEM. THE OTHER ONES, I JUST LEFT IN APPENDIX ONE, RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, GIVE THEM EIGHTEEN FIGURES SHOWING CESIUM PROFILES. BECAUSE THEY PROBABLY WOULD NOT -- YOU KNOW, IT TAKES UP A LOT OF SPACE IN THE TEXT, AND FIGURES ARE MORE EXPENSIVE TO WORK UP AND, YOU KNOW, THEY JUST COST -- IT INCREASES THE COST OF THE PAPER IN TERMS OF PAGE CHARGES. Q. OKAY. IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THESE GRAPHS THAT YOU DID FOR THE EIGHT, THEY DON'T LOOK THAT SIMILAR, AT LEAST TO A LAYMAN. OR CERTAINLY THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 234 TWO FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, UNENRICHED, DO NOT LOOK THAT SIMILAR, WOULD YOU AGREE? A. YEAH, I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. Q. OKAY. HOW DID YOU HANDLE THESE DIFFERENCES? A. I BASICALLY JUST AVERAGED. SINCE I TOOK MORE THAN ONE CORE AT EACH SITE, I REFERRED TO THE DATA PRIMARILY AS THE AVERAGE FOR EACH SITE, BE IT THE MEAN OF TWO CORES OR THE MEAN OF THREE CORES. Q. YOU DID NOT HANDLE THEM IN SOME STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT WAY? A. NO. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ENOUGH DATA POINTS TO REALLY ANALYZE STATISTICALLY. WITH A MEAN OF TWO YOU HAVE ONE DEGREE OF FREEDOM. Q. OKAY. A. IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A WHOLE LOT LEFT TO WORK WITH. Q. SO, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH DATA FOR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. YEAH, I WOULD SAY SO. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LOOKING AT THE SECOND PAGE OF APPENDIX ONE, WHICH IS IN THE FRONT OF THAT COMPOSITE EXHIBIT, YOU HAVE A COUNTING ERROR, LET'S SAY UNDER ALLIGATOR ALLEY NUMBER TWO. A. UH-HUH (YES). DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 235 Q. COUNTING ERROR OF .25. DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU COULD ADD OR SUBTRACT .25 TO YOUR PEAK, WHICH WAS AT 3.92 AND THEN YOUR LINE WOULD GO UP OR DOWN, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. IT'S ANALOGOUS, BUT NOT THE EXACT SAME AS A STANDARD ERROR. IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF -- IT, YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE THE AVERAGE OR THE COUNT. THE NUMBER OF PICOCURIES IS 3.92, BUT BASED ON THE INSTRUMENT IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, .25 LESS THAN THAT. IT DOESN'T -- YOU CAN'T EXACTLY DRAW THE LINE, BUT IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF HOW RELIABLE -- OR HOW MUCH VARIATION YOU HAVE. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DIDN'T DO STANDARD ERROR ANALYSIS? A. THIS IS ANALOGOUS TO A STANDARD ERROR FOR COUNTING STATISTICS. THIS IS WHAT RADIOCHEMISTS USE. THIS IS -- IT'S BASED ON THE NUMBER OF CHANNELS THAT YOU MAKE THE COUNTS IN. BECAUSE YOU DON'T -- WHEN YOU -- YOU GET A BELL-SHAPED CURVE OF COUNTS, AND EACH ONE CORRESPONDS TO A CHANNEL; IT'S NOT JUST ONE CHANNEL. I DON'T KNOW IF I'M MAKING MYSELF CLEAR, BUT--- Q. I THINK YOU'RE TRYING. I THINK I UNDERSTAND YOUR ANSWER. A. I MEAN, IT'S NOT CALCULATED EXACTLY LIKE A DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 236 STANDARD ERROR, BUT IT IS ANALOGOUS TO A STANDARD ERROR. Q. OKAY. IS THERE A REASON YOU DIDN'T USE STANDARD ERROR? A. NO. THIS IS -- THIS IS WHAT IS TRADITIONALLY -- THIS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS RADIOCHEMISTRY TYPE WORK DO. THIS IS THE NUMBER. Q. OH, THIS IS WHAT -- THIS IS -- YOU SAY THE COUNTING ERROR IS WHAT PEOPLE WHO USE CESIUM--- A. YEAH, OR--- Q. ---DATA WOULD USE? A. YEAH, OR ANY OF THIS RADIOCHEMISTRY TYPE STUFF; LEAD 210, YOU COULD CALCULATE A COUNTING ERROR FOR IT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LOOKING AT RESULTS AND DISCUSSION ON PAGE 9, YOU INDICATE THE NUMBER OF CORES THAT YOU PULLED, AND I THINK YOU'VE INDICATED THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH TO DO STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. DO YOU THINK THIS IS AN ADEQUATE SAMPLE SIZE TO DRAW THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU'VE ACTUALLY DRAWN? A. I THINK SO. AND APPARENTLY THE REVIEWERS THINK SO TOO, SINCE IT HAS BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE JOURNAL OF ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 237 Q. DID ANYONE QUESTION THE SAMPLE SIZE, DR. CRAFT? A. NO. THAT -- THEY QUESTIONED SOME THINGS, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THEM. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU TALK ABOUT TAILING, WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT TAILING IS? A. THAT IS WHERE YOU SEE A -- WELL, LET'S LOOK AT MAYBE THAT FIGURE TWO, THAT MIGHT SHOW A GOOD EXAMPLE OF TAILING. IN FACT, I MIGHT -- IF YOU LOOK AT THE FIGURE WITH THE CESIUM PROFILES, AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I WOULD CALL TAILING IS THAT -- IT'S A SECOND -- IT'S IN THE SECOND COLUMN DOWN AND THE ONE ON THE RIGHT. Q. OKAY. A. WHERE YOU SEE CESIUM ALL THE WAY DOWN AT TWENTY-FOUR CENTIMETERS BELOW THE SURFACE. Q. INSTEAD OF, LIKE, IN THE LEFT COLUMN THREE DOWN WHERE IT STARTS TO HUG THE LEFT? A. YEAH, OR ANY -- OR THE ONE IN THE SECOND COLUMN. BUT THE ONE TO THE LEFT YOU DON'T REALLY SEE -- YOU SEE SOME TAILING, BUT NOT LIKE IN THE ONE I'M REFERRING TO, 2A UNENRICHED NUMBER TWO. Q. OKAY. WHY IS THERE TAILING? A. THAT JUST MEANS THAT CESIUM -- AND CESIUM IS NOT HELD. IT IS HELD TO SOME EXTENT BY THE SOIL, BUT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 238 IT'S NOT HELD A HUNDRED PERCENT. AND THIS IS WHY YOU SEE SOME CESIUM AT DEPTH, WHEN YOU KNOW FOR A FACT OR YOU'RE PRETTY SURE THAT THERE WAS NO CESIUM DEPOSITED THERE. CESIUM IS -- CESIUM IS MOBILE TO SOME EXTENT IN THE SOIL, AND THAT'S WHY IN SOME--- Q. YOU MEAN IF IT WERE OVERTURNED OR SOMETHING, YOU COULD -- WE COULD DISTURB THE PROFILE, OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? A. I MEAN THAT CESIUM IS A CATION, IT'S POSITIVELY CHARGED. Q. RIGHT. A. SO, IT IS SORBED -- OR ADSORBED ON THE NEGATIVELY CHARGED SITES. AND IF YOU HAVE A LOT OF NEGATIVELY CHARGED SITES, OR -- IT WILL BE HELD VERY TIGHTLY. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. OR LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE DEALING WITH LIKE A METAL CATION THAT HAS A TRIVALENT CHARGE, IT WILL BE HELD VERY, VERY TIGHT. CESIUM JUST HAS A PLUS ONE CHARGE, AND FOR THIS REASON IT'S NOT HELD AS TIGHT AS A METAL, LIKE LEAD OR CALCIUM OR MAGNESIUM. AND SO THIS TAILING OCCURS, AND IT'S REALLY SEEN PRETTY COMMONLY IN MOST STUDIES THAT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 239 HAVE USED THE CESIUM TECHNIQUE. Q. OKAY. IF YOU SEE TOO MUCH TAILING, DOES THAT SORT OF INVALIDATE YOUR USE OF THE CESIUM OR NOT? A. NO, NO, IT DOESN'T INVALIDATE IT, BUT IT JUST TELLS YOU THAT IT'S NOT HELD AS TIGHTLY AS YOU MIGHT HOPE. Q. OKAY. I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE EFFECT OF FIRE ON YOUR CESIUM MARKER -- OR ON YOUR CESIUM PEAK. WHAT IS THAT EFFECT? A. I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE EXTENT OF THE BURN. A VERY -- A SURFACE BURN THAT DOESN'T BURN THE PEAT, YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT SEE ANY EFFECT ON THE CESIUM PROFILE. BUT IF IT -- OBVIOUSLY, IF THE FIRE BURNS A FOOT OF PEAT, THEN THE CESIUM PROFILE THAT'S IN THAT ONE FOOT, THE PEAK IS GOING TO MOVE DOWN INTO THE ASH LAYER. BUT THAT WOULD BE TRUE OF ANYTHING, LEAD, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING IF YOU HAD A BURN LIKE THAT. Q. LEAD, OR THE POLLEN, ANY OF YOUR MARKERS? A. YEAH, THE POLLEN, TOO, SURE. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHERE YOU DID NOT -- YOU SAID THERE WAS ONE CORE SAMPLE WHERE YOU DID NOT FIND CESIUM BELOW THE SURFACE, WERE YOU ABLE TO CORRELATE THAT TO A BURN? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 240 A. WE KIND OF LOOKED INTO IT, BUT WE COULDN'T REALLY RELATE IT TO ANYTHING. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THAT SITE IS JUST LOCATED IN AN AREA THAT HAS BEEN DRIER, AND THUS HAS NOT HAD ANY SIGNIFICANT ACCRETION, OR IT COULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO SOME KIND OF A BURN. THAT CORE HAS BEEN THE TOPIC OF A LOT OF DISCUSSION. Q. WELL--- A. BUT I STILL INCLUDE IT IN THE PAPER--- Q. YEAH. A. ---BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A REAL PHENOMENA THERE THAT WE SEE. THAT THE PEAK IS AT THE SURFACE, I THINK. Q. YOU CAN'T QUITE ACCOUNT FOR WHY THE PEAK IS AT THE SURFACE? WHY THERE WAS A LOSS OF--- A. IT COULD BE FIRE, OR IT COULD BE THAT SITE JUST HAS NOT HAD ANY ACCRETION OVER THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, BUT I CAN'T -- I DON'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION TO PULL THAT OUT. Q. THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, THERE'S BEEN NO ACCRETION IN TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, DOES IT? A. WELL, IF IT'S ON A HIGH SPOT OR A DRY SPOT IN THE EVERGLADES, IT IS POSSIBLE. Q. WHAT WOULD BE THE EFFECT OF DROUGHT ON THE CESIUM DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 241 PEAK? A. THE PEAK WOULDN'T CHANGE, BUT YOU WOULDN'T GET ANY ACCRETION IF YOU HAD A DROUGHT. OR IF YOU HAD SOME SUBSIDENCE, IT COULD TEND TO BRING THE -- YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD OXIDATION OF THE SURFACE PEAK, IT COULD TEND TO BRING THE PEAK CLOSER TO THE SURFACE. BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE, YOU KNOW, THIS QUESTION OF FIRE, I JUST DON'T KNOW THE ROLE AND HOW IT AFFECTS THE LOCATION OF THE PEAK. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE ROLE OF OXIDATION ON THE PEAT ACCRETION THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES? A. NO, THAT'S ANOTHER THING, AND THAT'S WHERE GOOD HYDROLOGY DATA WOULD, I THINK, HELP PROVIDE SOME INFORMATION ON THAT. Q. OKAY. BUT, AT PRESENT, THE WAY YOU'RE GOING ABOUT THE HYDROLOGY DATA IS TO LOOK AT THE POLLEN MARKINGS? A. WELL, TO TRY TO. I MEAN, THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THAT IT WILL PROVIDE ANY MORE INFORMATION THAN WE ALREADY HAVE, BUT THAT'S JUST PART OF THE WORK. YOU DON'T KNOW TILL YOU START LOOKING. Q. YOU INDICATE THAT CESIUM WAS USED UNSUCCESSFULLY IN OMBROTROPHIC BOGS WHERE THE PEATS WERE STRONGLY ACIDIC. IS THAT -- NOW, I'M READING, SO I'M SURE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 242 IT'S ACCURATE. A. RIGHT. I SEE IT, PAGE 10. Q. RIGHT, ON PAGE 10. BUT YOU SAY THAT YOUR EVERGLADES CORES ALSO EXHIBITED SOME MOVEMENT. I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS YOU HAD IN WORKING WITH THE CESIUM? A. WELL, IN THE EVERGLADES NOT REALLY. I THINK IT WORKS REALLY PRETTY WELL IN THE EVERGLADES, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF -- THE PROBLEM IS THAT CESIUM HAS BEEN TRIED IN NORTHERN PEATLANDS, IN CANADA AND MINNESOTA, AND IT HAS NOT -- THEY HAVE NOT HAD SUCCESS WITH IT. Q. BECAUSE OF ACIDIC SOILS? A. THAT'S MY THEORY. THAT'S WHY, I THINK. BECAUSE THERE CESIUM IN AN ACIDIC SOIL IS COMPETING WITH ALUMINUM, WHICH IS TRIVALENT AND IS HELD VERY TIGHTLY. WHEREAS, IN THE EVERGLADES THERE IS VERY LITTLE ALUMINUM. CESIUM WOULD BE COMPETING WITH CALCIUM WHICH IS DIVALENT, AND WOULD ALSO BE COMPETING WITH THINGS LIKE POTASSIUM AND SODIUM. Q. WHY HAVEN'T YOU TAKEN ANY CORES AT THE 217 GAUGE IN 2A, WHERE THERE IS SOME PRETTY GOOD HYDROLIC -- HYDROLOGIC DATA? A. I'VE NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED IT. I JUST HAVEN'T DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 243 THOUGHT ABOUT IT. Q. OKAY. A. IT MIGHT BE A GOOD THING TO DO FOR SOMEBODY, THOUGH. Q. OVER ON PAGE 12, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THERMOFACTORS, NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, HIGHER NET PRIMARY PRODUCTION OF CATTAIL AS COMPARED TO SAWGRASS. AN INCREASED HYDROPERIOD MAY EXPLAIN THE HIGHER ACCRETION RATE AT THE ENRICHED SITE. GIVEN THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WETLANDS, WHAT IS THE MECHANISM THAT HYDROPERIOD AFFECTS PEAT ACCRETION? A. HOW DOES HYDROPERIOD AFFECT ACCRETION? Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. OKAY. AS AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU GO OUT HERE IN THE FRONT YARD WHERE THE FESCUE IS GROWING, THERE IS NO HYDROPERIOD THERE; IT'S AN UPLAND AREA. AND BECAUSE IT'S VERY SELDOM WET, EXCEPT DURING A RAIN OR AFTERWARDS, YOU DON'T ANY KIND OF PEAT ACCUMULATION. PEAT ONLY FORMS IN THESE DEPOSITIONAL AREAS THAT ARE WET MOST, IF NOT ALL, OF THE TIME. SO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THIS WETNESS FACTOR TO GET PEAT TO BUILD UP. Q. OKAY. BUT THAT'S A WETLAND. WE'RE IN A WETLAND. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 244 A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT--- A. BUT I'M SAYING -- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A WETLAND THAT'S ONLY WET THREE MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR, IT WOULD QUALIFY AS A WETLAND. YOU PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE SIGNIFICANT PEAT ACCUMULATION. NO, IF IT'S WET DURING THE GROWING SEASON, IT WOULD BE A WETLAND. BUT IF YOU HAVE A WETLAND THAT'S WET NINE TO TWELVE MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR, YOU WOULD MORE THAN LIKELY HAVE PEAT STARTING TO BUILDUP. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE PLANT SPECIES, TOO, THOUGH. Q. YOU'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THINGS GROW MORE IF THEY GET ENOUGH WATER AND FERTILIZER? A. NO, IT'S THE -- IT'S THAT THE DECOMPOSITION IS SLOWED BY THE WETLANDS. Q. OKAY. FURTHER ON DOWN YOU SAY THAT THESE LARGE ADDITIONS OF NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS MAY INCREASE NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY. ARE YOU WITH ME? A. WHAT LINE? NO, I'M NOT WITH YOU. OH, I SEE IT NOW. Q. FOURTEEN, FIFTEEN. A. OKAY. Q. OF EMERGENT VEGETATION, THEREBY INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF DETRITUS POTENTIALLY AVAILABLE AS PEAT. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 245 THIS NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS POTENTIALLY INCREASING NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY OF EMERGENT VEGETATION, IS THIS COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS EUTROPHICATION? A. IT COULD BE, BUT I DON'T THINK IT ALWAYS WOULD BE SO. WELL, LARGE ADDITIONS MIGHT IMPLY EUTROPHICATION, THAT'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT I'M IMPLYING HERE, THOUGH. Q. NOT EXACTLY? A. OR -- NO, I'M NOT REALLY NECESSARILY THINKING ABOUT THE IDEA OF EUTROPHICATION. I'M THINKING OF A FERTILIZER EFFECT, ADDING A LIMITING NUTRIENT AND STIMULATING GROWTH. Q. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE EUTROPHICATION AT THE UPPER END OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A? A. I WOULD SAY IT'S NUTRIENT ENRICHED; THERE'S NO QUESTION OF THAT. Q. AND DO YOU EQUATE NUTRIENT ENRICHED WITH EUTROPHICATION? A. WELL, I'D HAVE TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF EUTROPHICATION TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. I MEAN, I THINK I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS, BUT I'M NOT READY JUST TO COME OUT AND SAY THAT THAT'S WHAT IT IS. Q. WELL, THE TITLE OF CRAFT NUMBER SIXTEEN IS "PEAT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 246 ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION ALONG A EUTROPHICATION GRADIENT IN THE NORTHERN EVERGLADES." A. WELL, I GUESS THERE I AM REFERRING TO EUTROPHICATION, SO. Q. SO, WHAT DOES IT MEAN? A. I GUESS NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, EUTROPHICATION, PROBABLY MEAN AT LEAST HERE, THE SAME -- I'M USING THEM TO MEAN THE SAME THING. Q. ALL RIGHT. AND, IN GENERAL, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE HAPPENS TO AN ECOSYSTEM WHEN YOU ADD FERTILIZER? A. YOU GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH, AMONG OTHER THINGS. Q. WITH OR WITHOUT HYDROPERIODS? A. YEAH, YOU WOULD GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH WITH OR WITHOUT HYDROPERIOD. Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER THINGS CHANGE? A. REPHRASE THE QUESTION OR BE MORE SPECIFIC. Q. WOULD OTHER THINGS CHANGE WHEN YOU ADD FERTILIZER TO A SYSTEM? A. YOU MAY SEE CHANGES IN COMMUNITY COMPOSITION, CHANGES IN PLANT COMMUNITIES, AND THAT SORT OF THING. Q. AT THE VARIOUS LEVELS--- A. RIGHT. RIGHT. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 247 Q. ---MICROBIAL, PERIPHYTON--- A. SURE. Q. ---MACROPHYTES, ETCETERA. OKAY. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, YOU INDICATE THAT INCREASED HYDROPERIOD ALSO MAY ENHANCE PEAT ACCUMULATION BY REDUCING AEROBIC DECOMPOSITION. WHAT ABOUT INCREASED ANAEROBIC DECOMPOSITION, WHAT HAPPENS THERE? A. WELL, YOU MAY SEE AN INCREASE ANAEROBIC DECOMPOSITION, BUT AEROBIC DECOMPOSITION IS MUCH MORE EFFICIENT, AND YOU GET GREATER DECOMPOSITION UNDER AEROBIC CONDITIONS GENERALLY THAN UNDER ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS. IT'S A MORE ENERGY EFFICIENT PROCESS. Q. WHAT IS THE ROLE OF METHANE IN CARBON CYCLING IN MOST WETLANDS? A. IT'S ONE OF THOSE -- IT INDICATES HIGHLY REDUCED CONDITIONS IS WHEN YOU START TO SEE METHANE PRODUCTION. Q. YOU TALK AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 12 AND AT THE BEGINNING OF 13 THAT THE NUTRIENT ENRICHED SITE -- I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 2A, AREN'T WE -- YEAH--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---2A RECEIVES AN AVERAGE -- AND YOU GIVE THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 248 FIGURE OF WATER EACH YEAR -- AND THUS, TENDS TO BE WETTER THAN THE UNENRICHED SITE IN THE INTERIOR OF 2A. HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR DR. RADER'S REFLECTION IN HIS WORK THAT THAT AREA GOES DRY THREE TO SIX WEEKS, WHILE THE UNENRICHED SITES FURTHER DOWN STAY WET? ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT? A. NOT REALLY, BUT -- BUT MY UNENRICHED LOCATIONS ARE NOT THE SAME AS HIS UNENRICHED LOCATIONS. Q. OKAY. YOUR UNENRICHED BEING NEAR THE 217 GAUGE, AND HIS BEING STRAIGHT DOWN--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---WHAT, ON 10D? A. RIGHT. MINE ARE MORE TO THE SOUTH AND THE WEST OF THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND HIS ARE DUE SOUTH. Q. OKAY. YOUR ENRICHED LOCATION IS THE SAME, THOUGH, IS IT NOT? A. IN THE SAME GENERAL AREA, SURE. Q. OKAY. A. I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, I STARTED COLLECTING SAMPLES IN 1989, AND THIS WAS BEFORE DR. RADER CAME TO WORK, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS--- Q. OKAY. OKAY. SO, THINGS HAVE GONE DRY SINCE THEN OR WHAT? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 249 A. I DON'T KNOW. BUT JUST IF YOU LOOK AT THE ELEVATION OF THE SOIL SURFACE ON MAPS THERE, OUR UNENRICHED SITE SITS HIGHER THAN THESE AREAS DUE SOUTH. Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU'VE INDICATED AT THE BEGINNING -- IF YOU REMEMBER, WE STARTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY, AND I ASKED YOU WHAT YOUR HYDROPERIOD DATA WAS. AND YOU SAID THAT IT WAS AS REFLECTED IN THE SWIM PLAN. YOU HAD EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD VERSUS OVERDRAINED, AND IT WAS SORT OF LIKE A GROSS--- A. UH-HUH (YES). RIGHT. Q. ---HYDROPERIOD DATA. NOW, YOU REALLY SEEM TO BE GOING TO A DIFFERENT TYPE OF HYDROPERIOD INFORMATION. WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM? A. AGAIN, THIS IS INFORMATION FROM THE SWIM PLAN. LET'S SEE WHO I CITE HERE. Q. YOU CITE THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WATER GOES IN AT THE TOP, BUT YOU DON'T CITE WHERE YOU FIND THAT IT'S WETTER THAN YOUR UNENRICHED SITE. A. ALL I DO IS LOOK AT THIS MAP SHOWING THE ELEVATION OF THE SURFACE PEAT IN 2A, AND IT SHOWS THAT AREA TO THE SOUTH AND WEST BEING ONE FOOT, OR MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE, HIGHER THAN THOSE AREAS DUE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 250 SOUTH. Q. OKAY. YOU HAVE A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP? A. IT WAS A FIGURE OUT OF THE SWIM PLAN. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND SEE IF I COULD FIND--- Q. BUT YOU LOOKED AT A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP OF 2A, AND THEN YOU INFERRED THAT IT WOULD BE--- A. RIGHT, I INFERRED, CERTAINLY. Q. OKAY. DID YOU CORROBORATE THAT FROM WATER LEVELS, OR SOMETHING WITHIN THERE? A. NO, NOPE. Q. YOU JUST LOOKED AT THE TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP AND DECIDED THAT ONE AREA WAS WETTER THAN THE OTHER? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. GOING DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF 13, YOU INDICATE THAT, "PEAT ACCRETION IS GREATEST IN AREAS THAT ARE EXPOSED TO EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD (12A, 12C AND/OR NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT) WATER CONSERVATION 2A ENRICHED." WHICH APPEARS TO BE MORE CONTROLLING, DR. CRAFT? A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. IF I KNEW THE ANSWER TO THAT, I'D PROBABLY BE A WEALTHY GUY, AND THE PROBLEM WOULD BE RESOLVED, BUT--- Q. DON'T COUNT ON IT. A. ---I MIGHT NOT BE WEALTHY, BUT THE PROBLEM MIGHT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 251 BE CLOSER TO BEING RESOLVED. Q. YOU HAVE NOT IN YOUR OWN MIND MADE SOME VALUE JUDGMENT AS TO WHICH IS CONTRIBUTING MORE TO PEAT ACCRETION? A. NO, NO. I THINK THEY BOTH PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK SOMEBODY SHOULD BE DOING WORK TO TRY TO SEPARATE THOSE OUT. Q. BUT THEY'RE NOT? A. I DON'T KNOW. AS FAR AS I KNOW, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT; I DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE. Q. OKAY. AT THE TOP OF 14, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THESE SOIL ELEVATIONS, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TOPOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION YOU FOUND IN THE SWIM PLAN? A. YES. ACTUALLY I'M TALKING -- I CITE WORTH AND A PAPER BY WALTERS, ET AL. Q. BUT ARE THOSE SITES THAT WERE IN THE SWIM PLAN, OR DID YOU GO TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FOR YOUR--- A. WORTH IS A DISTRICT TECHNICAL REPORT, AND WALTERS IS A PAPER THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS THIS YEAR. Q. BUT YOU MADE YOUR ASSUMPTIONS BASED UPON THE TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. WELL, AND ALSO THESE TWO. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 252 Q. YOU FORGOT THEM? A. RIGHT. SURE. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THIS PAPER IN THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, SO. Q. YOU DIDN'T REVIEW YOUR PAPER BEFORE COMING TODAY? A. NO, I HAVE TOO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO, AND THIS IS NOT THE HIGHEST OF MY PRIORITIES. Q. DO YOU THINK THAT PHOSPHORUS CAN ACCELERATE PEAT ACCRETION IN AN AREA OF STABLE HYDROPERIOD? A. WE'RE REFERRING TO THE EVERGLADES? Q. YES. A. I THINK SO. I THINK IT PROBABLY CAN. Q. OKAY. THAT BEING SO, THEN WHY WOULDN'T YOU THINK THAT PHOSPHORUS WOULD BE THE MORE CONTRIBUTING FACTOR? A. WELL, I THINK THAT IF YOU ENHANCED -- UNDER LEVEL PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS, YOU COULD ENHANCE PEAT ACCRETION BY INCREASING HYDROPERIOD, TOO, THOUGH. Q. DO YOU REALLY? IF YOU HAD THE SAME LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS COMING IN AND YOU INCREASE THE WATER, YOU THINK THAT YOU WOULD AUTOMATICALLY INCREASE THE PEAT ACCRETION? A. I THINK YOU COULD, YEAH. Q. COULD OR WOULD? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 253 A. I THINK YOU COULD. Q. DO YOU THINK IF YOU HAD STABLE HYDROPERIOD AND YOU ADDED INCREASED PHOSPHORUS, WOULD YOU INCREASE THE PEAT ACCRETION -- ACCELERATE IT? A. DIDN'T YOU JUST ASK ME THIS QUESTION, AND I SAID--- Q. YEAH. A. ---YES. Q. BUT WOULD YOU? A. I THINK YOU COULD. Q. BUT YOU AREN'T MORE CERTAIN ABOUT THAT ONE? A. I'VE SAID IT FIVE OR SIX TIMES. MR. McCAUGHAN: THE WITNESS HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION THREE OR FOUR TIMES. LET'S MOVE ON. WITNESS: THANK YOU, RALPH. MS. PONZOLI: I'VE BEEN VERY COURTEOUS, MR. McCAUGHAN. MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M JUST -- I'M -- HE'S ANSWERED IT, AND HE'S ANSWERED IT, AND YOU KEEP ASKING AND ASKING. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK--- MR. McCAUGHAN: SO, ALL I'M SAYING IS LET'S MOVE ON--- DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 254 MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK IT'S A VERY--- MR. McCAUGHAN: ---IF WE'RE EVER GOING TO FINISH THIS. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, WE'RE GOING TO FINISH TOMORROW, WE'RE NOT GOING TO FINISH TODAY. AND, YOU KNOW, IT JUST GETS SLOWER WHEN IT GETS DIFFICULT. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OVER ON 16, DR. CRAFT, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NITROGEN REMOVAL OR NITROGEN RETAINED IN THE MARSH, AND YOU SAY, IN CONTRAST SEVENTY-EIGHT PERCENT OF THE PHOSPHORUS ENTERING WATER CONSERVATION 2A IS REMOVED BY THIS IMPOUNDMENT. WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER AN IMPOUNDMENT, DR. CRAFT? A. I WOULD CONSIDER CONSERVATION AREA 2A AN IMPOUNDMENT. Q. IS IT A TYPICAL IMPOUNDMENT? A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT A TYPICAL IMPOUNDMENT IS. IT HAS BEEN DIKED; IT HAS SIDES; IT HAS CANALS AROUND THE PERIMETER. Q. ALL RIGHT. IT HAS WATER COMING IN AND WATER GOING OUT--- A. RIGHT. BUT--- DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 255 Q. ---IS THAT RIGHT? A. ---BUT IT'S NOT FREELY MOVING AS IT PROBABLY -- AS IT ONCE WAS. Q. AND SO WHEN SOMETHING IS NOT FREELY MOVING THAT MAKES IT AN IMPOUNDMENT? A. I -- THAT'S MY VIEW OF IT, YES. Q. OKAY. ON PAGE 17 WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE RETENTION OF PHOSPHORUS IN EVERGLADES SURFACE SOILS. IT SUGGESTS THAT PHOSPHORUS IS EFFICIENTLY RECYCLED, A TREND OFTEN FOUND IN ECOSYSTEMS WHERE PHOSPHORUS MAY LIMIT PRODUCTIVITY. DOES THIS SUGGEST THAT PHOSPHORUS IS A LIMITING FACTOR IN THIS SYSTEM? A. WELL, IT CERTAINLY SUGGESTS IT, YES. Q. OKAY. AT THE BOTTOM YOU'RE COMPARING, "EVERGLADES SOILS ARE SEQUESTERING ORGANIC CARBON AT RATES THAT ARE HIGHER THAN PEATLANDS IN COOLER CLIMATES, AND SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN PEATLANDS IN WARM, HIGHLY PRODUCTIVE ENVIRONMENTS." CAN YOU REALLY COMPARE THESE WETLANDS -- THESE EVERGLADES WETLANDS WITH TEMPERATE WETLANDS? A. WELL, YOU CAN COMPARE THEM IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ROLE OF WETLANDS WORLDWIDE IN CARBON STORAGE. Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT pH? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 256 A. WHAT ABOUT pH? Q. WAS pH THE SAME IN BOTH OF THEM, IN THE TEMPERATE? A. I DON'T KNOW THE -- THAT I DON'T KNOW. THAT WOULD DEPEND ON THE WETLANDS. CERTAINLY MICHIGAN HAS SOME CIRCUMNEUTRAL pH WETLANDS, AND I'M SURE THERE ARE OTHER ONES WORLDWIDE. Q. OKAY. DO MOST TROPICAL AND SUBTROPICAL SYSTEMS ACCUMULATE CARBON? A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T WORKED MUCH IN THOSE. Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER WETLANDS SYSTEMS HAVE YOU WORKED IN? A. SALT WATER MARSHES, BRACKISH WATER MARSHES, AND FRESHWATER MARSHES. Q. WHERE? A. NORTH CAROLINA. Q. ALL IN NORTH CAROLINA? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. AND HOW WOULD YOU CATEGORIZE THOSE WETLANDS VERSUS THE EVERGLADES? A. SOME OF THEM ARE PEAT-BASED, AND I SEE SOME SIMILARITIES. AND THEN SOME OF THEM ARE NOT PEAT-BASED, AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE AS COMPARABLE. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 257 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE CLIMATE? A. IT'S A LITTLE BIT COOLER, BUT, AGAIN, MY INTEREST IS NOT SO MUCH IN COMPARING WETLANDS IN NORTH CAROLINA AND FLORIDA, BUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND JUST HOW WETLANDS SEQUESTER MATERIALS IN A GENERAL SORT OF WAY. Q. ON 18 YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NITROGEN FIXATION BY PERIPHYTON MAY ACCOUNT FOR THE ADDITIONAL AMOUNT -- I'M NOT GOING TO READ THE NUMBER -- THAT ACCUMULATES ANNUALLY IN INTERIOR LOCATIONS. MR. BURGESS: COULD YOU JUST GIVE THE LINE NUMBER ON THAT? MS. PONZOLI: OH, I'M SORRY, SURE. THIRTEEN, FOURTEEN AND FIFTEEN. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO EVERGLADES PERIPHYTON ACTUALLY FIX NITROGEN? A. I DON'T KNOW; I'VE NEVER MEASURED IT, BUT I WOULD THINK THERE ARE A LOT BLUE-GREEN ALGAE, AND I WOULD THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME NITROGEN FIXERS IN THERE. Q. YOU COULDN'T GIVE ME ANY RATES? A. NO. Q. OKAY. A. NOW, RON HERE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU SOME DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 258 RATES. Q. HIS DEPO'S NOT BEING TAKEN, YET. ALL RIGHT. THERE'S A CONCEPT ON 19, ON LINES NINE THROUGH SIXTEEN, THAT I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, "THE ENRICHED AREA RECEIVING SIX TIMES AS MUCH PHOSPHORUS AND EIGHT TIMES AS MUCH NITROGEN AS THE UNENRICHED AREA. AND AS A RESULT THE EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL AT THE ENRICHED LOCATION WAS LESS, AS COMPARED TO THE UNENRICHED, SUGGESTING THAT THE ENRICHED AREA MAY BE APPROACHING SATURATION WITH RESPECT TO PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION." WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SATURATION? A. THAT IT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO STORE ANY MORE ON A PER ANNUAL BASIS. THAT IT MAY HAVE REACHED SOME SORT OF, YOU KNOW, CRITICAL ACCUMULATION RATE. WHEREAS IF YOU ADD MORE TO THE SYSTEM THAN THAT AMOUNT, IT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STORE IT. Q. AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN? A. IT WILL PROBABLY MOVE ON DOWNSTREAM. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW CLOSE TO A SATURATION THAT AREA IS? A. NO. AGAIN, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE VERY USEFUL INFORMATION, I THINK. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 259 Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S AT SATURATION? A. I'M REALLY NOT SURE HOW TO DO THAT. Q. DO YOU JUST MONITOR TO SEE IF IT'S MOVING DOWNSTREAM? A. SURE, THAT'S ONE WAY TO DO IT. Q. AND YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE FRONT IS -- THEORETICAL FRONT IS MOVING? A. AND SET UP PERMANENT PLOTS AND SEE HOW THE PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION CHANGES OVER TIME AND THE SURFACE WATER. Q. OKAY. YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE AT THE UNENRICHED SITE A HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND THIRTY-THREE PERCENT EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL. A. I SEE IT. Q. OKAY. HOW DO YOU GET A HUNDRED AND THIRTY-THREE PERCENT EFFICIENCY? A. WELL, I HAVE TO GO TO TABLE 3 AND SEE WHAT THE NUMBERS COME OUT TO BE. WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE INPUT RATE, WHICH IS -- ARE WE TALKING THE UNENRICHED AREA -- .06 GRAMS P PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR, WHICH WE ASSUME IS COMING IN IN RAINFALL, AND THE ACCUMULATION RATE IS .06 TO .08. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 260 SO, YOU JUST DIVIDE THOSE AND YOU COME UP WITH ONE HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND THIRTY-THREE PERCENT. BUT AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THIS IS SORT OF WITHIN THE REALM OF WHAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT IN SCIENCE. A RANGE OF -- IT'S PRETTY GOOD AGREEMENT, I WOULD SAY. Q. I'M NOT A SCIENTIST, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE YOU MIGHT HAVE A THIRTY-THREE PERCENT ERROR THERE. A. OH, CERTAINLY. WELL, MAYBE THE RAINFALL INPUT'S -- YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT'S .07 OR .08. WE MAY BE OFF A LITTLE BIT ON OUR ACCUMULATION RATE DATA. BUT, AGAIN, THIS PAPER HAS BEEN ACCEPTED BY A JOURNAL, AND THE REVIEWERS HAVE SEEN IT, AND THEY MUST -- THEY'VE DONE THIS SORT OF WORK, I PRESUME, AND IT'S NOT -- AGAIN, IT'S IN THE BALLPARK. Q. OKAY. SO, THOSE ARE THE TWO VARIABLES THAT YOU THINK MIGHT BE OFF, THE ACCUMULATION RATE OR THE RAINFALL? A. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE OFF. THEY DON'T MATCH UP A HUNDRED PERCENT. BUT IN -- IT'S AN IMPERFECT WORLD, AND THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS YOU FIND. Q. PAGE 21, LINES 13, 14, 15, "THE LOW RATES OF PHOSPHORUS STORAGE IN UNENRICHED EVERGLADES SOIL DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 261 PROBABLY REFLECT THE HISTORICALLY LOW INPUTS OF PHOSPHORUS TO THIS SYSTEM." HOW DO YOU DEFINE A LOW INPUT, DR. CRAFT? A. I DON'T KNOW HOW I DEFINE IT. HERE I DEFINE IT AS AROUND THAT -- PROBABLY LESS THAN A TENTH OF GRAM PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR, SINCE THE NUMBERS ARE .06 TO .08. Q. OKAY. A. AGAIN, THESE ARE BALLPARK KINDS OF NUMBERS. Q. PAGE 22, "ECOLOGICAL APPLICATION," YOU INDICATE, "THE NUTRIENT ENRICHED AREA HAS FUNCTIONED EFFECTIVELY" -- LINES 9 AND 10 -- "AS A PHOSPHORUS SINK FOR THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS." AND YOU'VE ALSO INDICATED, "THAT IT MAY BE REACHING SATURATION." THEN YOU GO ON TO TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH WOULD BE NEEDED IF WE WERE TO BUILD A FLOW-THROUGH OR AN STA. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY A FLOW-THROUGH -- A FLOWWAY--- A. SURE. Q. ---OR AN STA? A. RIGHT. SURE. Q. TO HANDLE THE -- WHAT DO YOU HAVE HERE, FORTY-FIVE METRIC TONS? I THINK WE HAD SAID BEFORE IT WAS FIFTY-FOUR METRIC TONS, HADN'T WE--- DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 262 A. I DON'T--- Q. ---COMING INTO WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A? A. I DON'T SEE THE NUMBER YOU'RE REFERRING TO. MR. BURGESS: TWENTY-ONE. MR. RICHARDSON: TWENTY-ONE. Q. TWENTY-ONE, LINE TWENTY-ONE. A. WELL, THAT'S IF BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES CAN REDUCE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---THE INPUT BY FORTY-FIVE METRIC TONS. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOUR ASSUMPTIONS HAVE BEEN MADE BASED ON WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. SURE. Q. OKAY. IS WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A MANAGED FOR NUTRIENTS? A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I THINK -- MY UNDERSTANDING IS IT'S MANAGED FOR WATER SUPPLY AND FLOOD CONTROL, IS MY UNDERSTANDING. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WERE TO MANAGE AN STA OR A FLOWWAY SYSTEM, COULDN'T IT BE SIZED DOWN? A. YEAH, CONCEIVABLY. IF YOU IMPLEMENTED THE RIGHT MANAGEMENT PRACTICES, YOU COULD -- THE ACREAGE COULD CHANGE, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 263 Q. OKAY. SO, YOUR LARGER ACREAGE -- JUST SO WE'RE BOTH CLEAR WITH ONE ANOTHER -- YOUR LARGER ACREAGE IS BASED UPON AN UNMANAGED SYSTEM COMPARABLE TO 2A? A. RIGHT. IF THEY WANT TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS AS -- THROUGH PEAT ACCUMULATION UNDER THESE KIND OF CONDITIONS, THIS IS PROBABLY WHAT THEY WOULD SEE. Q. OKAY. WHEN WE COME TO YOUR CONCLUSIONS YOU INDICATE THAT DENITRIFICATION MAY BE IMPORTANT IN REMOVING NITROGEN IN AREAS RECEIVING AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE, BUT AT THIS TIME THERE'S NO INFORMATION TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS. COULD YOU DO A SIMPLE MASS BALANCE CALCULATION TO DO THAT? A. I DON'T THINK IT -- I THINK WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS TO GO OUT AND MEASURE DENITRIFICATION. Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT? A. WELL, I THINK -- AGAIN, I'M NOT AN EXPERT AT THIS; I'M NOT SURE IF THERE'S SOME SORT OF ACETYLENE REDUCTION TECHNIQUE OR SOMETHING. I REALLY DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT DENITRIFICATION TO GO OUT AND MEASURE IT. Q. OKAY. IF WE TAKE YOUR STATEMENT ON PAGE 23, EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN AND TWENTY, "THAT REDUCED HYDROPERIOD IN INTERIOR PARTS OF 2A AND 3A AND THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 264 NORTHERN PART OF 3A HAVE GENERALLY RESULTED IN REDUCED RATES OF PEAT ACCRETION," CAN WE SAY THE CONVERSE? MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M SORRY, SUZAN, EXCUSE ME. WHAT LINE? MS. PONZOLI: EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN AND TWENTY. MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY, THANKS. MS. PONZOLI: ON PAGE 23. MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY, THANKS. A. THAT ENHANCED HYDROPERIOD--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---COULD INCREASE? Q. RIGHT. A. YEAH, I THINK IT COULD DO THAT. Q. OKAY. THAT'S YOUR BELIEF IS THAT THAT WOULD HAPPEN, THAT'S WHAT WE HAD DISCUSSED JUST A LITTLE WHILE AGO? A. WELL, I THINK IT COULD HAPPEN, BUT I THINK YOU CAN ALSO ADD TOO MUCH WATER AND KILL THE PLANTS--- Q. SURE. A. ---AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. AND, AGAIN, THIS IS -- I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT COULD BE DONE RELATING TO THIS QUESTION. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 265 Q. DR. CRAFT, I'D LIKE TO MOVE ONTO EXHIBIT NUMBER SIXTEEN. DO YOU HAVE A MORE RECENT DRAFT OF THIS, THAN SIXTEEN? A. YOU-ALL HAVE MY LATEST INFORMATION, SO, YEAH. Q. OKAY. A. I'D LOVE TO HAVE A MORE RECENT DRAFT, BUT I'M TOO BUSY DEALING WITH YOU-ALL, I'M AFRAID, AND TEACHING A CLASS. MR. McCAUGHAN: SUZAN, IS THAT THE MOST -- IS THAT THE ONE THAT YOU HAD THE LIMITED NUMBER--- MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES). MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY. MS. PONZOLI: BUT I DID PASS OUT SEVERAL. MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. CRAFT, YOU'VE INDICATED SEVERAL TIMES THAT WE'RE TAKING UP A LOT OF YOUR TIME. ARE YOU DOING OTHER THINGS RELATED TO THIS LITIGATION, OTHER THAN GETTING YOUR DOCUMENTS DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 266 TOGETHER AND COMING TO DEPOSITIONS? A. NO. MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. A. NO. Q. OKAY. I JUST WANTED TO BE CLEAR THAT--- A. I MEAN, BUT I'M TEACHING; I SUPERVISE STUDENTS; I TRY TO DO RESEARCH; AND I HAVE A FAMILY, SO, IT EATS INTO MY TIME, SO. Q. I FOUND IN SOME OF YOUR DOCUMENTS SOME MATERIALS THAT HAD BEEN FORWARDED TO YOU BY A MR. PAUL LARSON. HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY MEETINGS WITH MR. LARSON? A. NO. HE WAS INVOLVED -- THE FIRST DAY ON THE JOB WE WENT OUT AND TOOK SAMPLES, AND HE WAS WITH US, AND HE PROVIDED ACTUALLY THE LORAN-C COORDINATES FOR OUR LOCATIONS. Q. HAVE YOU MET WITH HIM SINCE THAT TIME? A. I DON'T THINK SO. I MIGHT HAVE MET HIM AT A MEETING, BUT -- IN KEY LARGO, BUT I DON'T EXACTLY REMEMBER, BUT--- Q. WAS THIS AN EVERGLADES COALITION TYPE MEETING? A. THIS WAS A SYMPOSIUM ON THE EVERGLADES--- Q. OH. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 267 A. ---YOU MAY HAVE BEEN THERE, I DON'T KNOW, SO. Q. I WAS THERE. SO WERE A LOT OF US. A. RIGHT. THAT GOES WITHOUT SAYING. Q. OKAY. WHAT DO YOU TEACH? YOU INDICATED YOU TEACH. A. A COURSE IN APPLIED ECOLOGY. Q. JUST THE ONE COURSE, AND THAT WAS WITH THE SIXTY SOMETHING STUDENTS? A. RIGHT AND TWO LABS. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT TEXTBOOKS DO YOU USE FOR THE ECOLOGY COURSE? A. WE USE THIS BOOK BY WALT WESTMAN, I CAN'T THINK OF THE EXACT TITLE OF IT. Q. OKAY. A. BUT SOMETHING LIKE RESOURCE ECOLOGY AND MANAGEMENT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT CRAFT NUMBER SIXTEEN. YOU'RE STILL DEALING WITH THIS CONCEPT OF PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, AND IF I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY, INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH THESE SEVEN SITES THAT WERE IN FIGURE -- I THINK IT WAS ONE ATTACHED TO CRAFT NUMBER FIVE, YOU'RE DEALING WITH YOUR NUTRIENT GRADIENT, IS THAT RIGHT? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 268 A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU FINDING THE SAME CONCLUSIONS FROM THAT WORK THAT YOU FOUND IN YOUR OTHER WORK SPREAD ACROSS THE EVERGLADES? A. THE SAME GENERAL CONCLUSIONS. Q. OKAY. AND THOSE GENERAL CONCLUSIONS ARE? A. THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT SEEMS TO ENHANCE PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION. THIS PAPER HERE DOES NOT REALLY ADDRESS HYDROPERIOD--- Q. OKAY. A. ---SO--- Q. OKAY. A. ---I MEAN, THE FIRST PAPER SORT OF ALLOWED US TO FIGURE OUT WHERE WE NEED TO HONE IN AND LOOK MORE IN-DEPTH AT THE ENRICHMENT PROBLEM. AND SO THIS PAPER GOES TO THAT AREA, THE NORTHERN PART OF CONSERVATION AREA 2A. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU CHOSE NOT TO LOOK AT HYDROPERIOD, IS THAT RIGHT? A. WELL, AGAIN, WE JUST -- THE DATA DOES NOT EXIST FOR THESE POINTS -- FOR THESE LOCATIONS. AGAIN, TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF HYDROPERIOD DATA AT THESE EIGHTEEN POINTS WOULD BE GREAT, BUT IT'S JUST NOT THERE. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 269 Q. SO, YOU JUST WENT TO THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT BECAUSE THAT YOU CAN PULL DATA ON, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. YEAH, TO SOME EXTENT. IT'S CERTAINLY EASIER TO ACCESS THAN HYDROPERIOD OVER THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. Q. OKAY. YOU SAID THE SAME GENERAL CONCLUSIONS. IMPLICITLY THERE ARE SOME DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS, WHAT ARE THOSE? A. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PAPER. Q. OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A SECOND AND TELL ME. A. AND I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT BOTH PAPERS, AND I REALLY -- AM I BEING ASKED TO PERFORM HERE, OR CAN YOU JUST ASK THE QUESTIONS? Q. NO, I JUST WANT YOU TO TELL ME GENERALLY WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE YOU'RE FINDING IN YOUR GRADIENT WORK VERSUS YOUR--- A. I DON'T -- I DON'T SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENCES. WE SEE ENHANCED PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, ESSENTIALLY. Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU SAID THE SAME GENERAL CONCLUSIONS, YOU WERE NOT IMPLYING THAT THERE WERE DIFFERENCES? A. WELL, I DON'T WANT TO COME OUT AND, YOU KNOW, JUST DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 270 SPEAK THAT I KNOW A HUNDRED PERCENT OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT I SAID IN HERE WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT. SO, I'M KIND OF HEDGING A LITTLE BIT IN CASE YOU COME BACK AND SAY, WELL, A MINUTE AGO YOU SAID THIS, BUT NOW YOU'RE SAYING THIS. Q. OKAY. I THINK--- A. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Q. IT WASN'T A TRICK QUESTION; I WASN'T LOOKING TO TRICK YOU. SO, I'M JUST GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU THINK YOU'RE COMING TO THE SAME BASIC CONCLUSIONS, AND IF YOU FIND SOMETHING DIFFERENT THEN WE'LL DISCUSS IT WHEN YOU COME TO IT--- A. OKAY. SURE, THAT'S GREAT. Q. ---THAT SEEMS FAIR. OKAY, IN THIS PAPER YOU LOOK AT SIX LOCATIONS ALONG THREE TRANSECTS, AND YOU'RE MEASURING CESIUM BULK DENSITY AND NUTRIENT CONTENT, RIGHT? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. YOUR SIX LOCATIONS, ARE THEY -- IS THERE A CHART IN HERE, THAT I DON'T RECALL, THAT SHOWS ME WHERE THEY ARE? A. THIS IS IT, THESE -- HERE ARE THE THREE TRANSECTS AND THE SIX POINTS ON THE THREE. Q. OKAY. YOU DID SIX ON EACH ONE? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 271 A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. A. SO, A TOTAL OF EIGHTEEN POINTS. Q. OKAY. DID YOU CHOSE THESE SITES; WERE YOU THE ONE WHO CHOSE TO GO TO THOSE? A. I THINK DR. RICHARDSON AND I CHOSE THEM. Q. OKAY. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU CONSIDERED IN CHOOSING THOSE SITES? A. WELL, WE WANTED TO RUN EACH TRANSECT SOUTH OF A WATER CONTROL STRUCTURE. SO, THAT'S HOW WE ORIENTED THE LINES, AND THEN THE TRANSECT POINTS ARE ESSENTIALLY EVENLY-SPACED, JUST TO TRY TO DETERMINE THE EFFECTS OF ENRICHMENT ON PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, AND ALSO HOW FAR DOWNSTREAM THE ENRICHMENT, YOU KNOW, EXTENDS. Q. OKAY. ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS YOU TALK ABOUT, "SODIUM ENRICHMENT OF THE SOIL WAS EVIDENT ONLY WITHIN ONE POINT FIVE KILOMETERS OF THE HILLSBORO CANAL." WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS? A. WELL, WE THOUGHT THAT SODIUM MIGHT PLAY A ROLE IN THE ENCROACHMENT OF CATTAIL INTO SAWGRASS AREAS. AND WE HAD SOME PRELIMINARY DATA THAT SUGGESTED THAT SODIUM ENRICHMENT WAS OCCURRING IN AREAS BELOW THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND THAT WAS THE MAIN DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 272 REASON WE LOOKED AT SODIUM. Q. BUT YOU DIDN'T FIND THAT IT WAS THERE? A. WELL, ONLY VERY CLOSE TO THE CANAL. IT CERTAINLY DIDN'T EXTEND THAT FAR DOWNSTREAM. Q. AND YOU COULDN'T ESTABLISH ANY RELATIONSHIP TO THE ENCROACHMENT OF THE CATTAIL? A. NO, I MEAN, WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY TRY TO, BUT WE JUST DIDN'T SEE THE EXTENT OF SODIUM ENRICHMENT AS WE SAW WITH PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT. Q. OKAY. A. THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT IS MUCH MORE WIDESPREAD THAN THE SODIUM ENRICHMENT. Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU CHOSE YOUR SITES, HOW DID YOU KNOW HOW FAR THE ENRICHMENT EXTENDED? A. WE DIDN'T KNOW. THAT'S WHY WE RAN THE LINES AND THE SIX POINTS TO TRY TO DETERMINE THAT. Q. OKAY. AND HOW DID YOU DETERMINE HOW FAR IT WENT? A. WE LOOKED AT PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN THE SOIL--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---AND PEAT DEPOSITED IN THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. Q. OKAY. AND THEN HOW DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOU HAD COME TO THE END OF THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 273 A. WHEN THE CONCENTRATION OF TOTAL P IN THE SOIL LEVELED OFF, REACHED KIND OF A LEVEL, YOU KNOW, THE VALUES WERE SIMILAR FROM ONE POINT TO THE NEXT. Q. OKAY. IN THAT GREENHOUSE EXPERIMENT THAT'S BEING DONE BY THE GRADUATE STUDENT WE HAD DISCUSSED EARLIER TODAY, WHAT IS THE FOCUS OF THAT WORK? A. AGAIN, IT WAS RELATED TO DETERMINE IF SODIUM HAD A ROLE IN CATTAIL ENCROACHMENT INTO SAWGRASS. Q. OKAY. AND WHO SET UP THE DESIGN OF THAT EXPERIMENT? A. I HELPED AND JANE RAIKES, WHO'S THE STUDENT, YOU KNOW, DID THE LION'S SHARE OF THE WORK. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE HYPOTHESIS OF IT? A. AGAIN, SINCE I HAVEN'T SEEN IT RECENTLY, THE HYPOTHESIS WAS THAT -- I THINK SHE HAD TWO. ONE, THAT SODIUM LEVELS WOULD ENABLE -- OR ENHANCED SODIUM LEVELS WOULD ENABLE CATTAIL TO MAYBE OUT COMPETE OR TO OUT PERFORM SAWGRASS. NOT SO MUCH MAYBE THAT -- YOU KNOW, SHE DIDN'T KNOW -- WE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER CATTAIL WOULD RESPOND MORE TO SODIUM, OR WHETHER SAWGRASS WOULD RESPOND ADVERSELY TO SODIUM--- Q. OKAY. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 274 A. ---SO, WE JUST WANTED TO SEE IF THERE WAS A SHIFT. Q. RIGHT. AND THEN THE OTHER ONE? A. SHE LOOKED AT THE EFFECT OF WATER LEVEL TO -- TWO DIFFERENT WATER LEVELS. AND THAT -- THE HYPOTHESIS THERE IS THAT CATTAIL -- SINCE THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT CATTAIL SEEMS TO DO BETTER IN DEEPER WATER THAN SAWGRASS, THAT DEEPER WATER LEVELS WOULD ALLOW CATTAIL TO, AGAIN, OUT PERFORM SAWGRASS. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT CONCLUSIONS DID SHE COME TO? A. SHE FOUND NO EFFECT OF SALT ON THE GROWTH OF EITHER ONE. Q. OKAY. A. AND SHE DID FIND THAT SAWGRASS PRODUCED SIGNIFICANTLY MORE DRY MATTER -- ABOVEGROUND DRY MATTER -- IN THE SHALLOW FLOODED TREATMENTS AS COMPARED TO CATTAIL, AND THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IN THE DEEPER FLOODED. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. AND IF I UNDERSTAND, MR. McCAUGHAN, ACCURATELY, THIS WILL BE SUPPLIED TO US ONCE IT'S A FINAL PAPER? MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH, I HAVE NO PROBLEM, AS SOON AS SHE -- SHE'S GOT NOW PUTTING THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 275 FINISHING TOUCHES ON IT. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: IT SHOULD BE READY THE FIRST OF THE YEAR. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. AND THEN EITHER WITH OR WITHOUT THE PRODUCTION AT DR. RICHARDSON'S DEPOSITION--- MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH, I DON'T MIND SENDING IT TO YOU. MS. PONZOLI: ---IF I WANTED TO--- MR. McCAUGHAN: IF HE WANTED YOU--- MS. PONZOLI: ---ASK HIM FURTHER ABOUT IT, I COULD ASK HIM AT THAT TIME? MR. McCAUGHAN: SURE. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH DR. RICHARDSON HAS TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL PAPER, OR THE SUPERVISION OF IT, I'M NOT AWARE. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE YOU HER SUPERVISING PROFESSOR, OR IS DR. RICHARDSON? A. HE IS -- ON PAPER HE IS THE MAN WHO APPROVES IT, AND SIGNS OFF, AND ALLOWS HER TO GRADUATE. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 276 Q. WHO'S HER SUPERVISING PROFESSOR, YOU? A. PROBABLY ME, THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE A FAIR ASSESSMENT, YEAH. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY SODIUM WORK DONE ACTUALLY IN THE EAA? A. NO. NO. Q. SO, YOU'VE HEARD OF NO DATA THAT WOULD REFLECT ELEVATED LEVELS OF SODIUM IN THE EAA? A. NO, JUST OUR DATA. PRELIMINARY DATA SUGGESTED SODIUM MIGHT HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY, AND SO THAT'S WHY WE UNDERTOOK -- WE MEASURED IT IN THIS EXPERIMENT, AND WHY WE SET UP THE GREENHOUSE EXPERIMENT. Q. HAVE YOU ANY DATA FROM THE HILLSBORO CANAL THAT INDICATES ELEVATED SODIUM LEVELS? A. I DON'T HAVE ANY. I'M SURE THAT THERE IS DATA ON IT, BUT I DON'T HAVE IT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THESE PAGES ARE DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T NUMBERED THEM. A. RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A DRAFT. Q. OKAY. I KNOW, I KNOW. DO YOU STILL THINK THAT SODIUM PLAYS A ROLE, DR. CRAFT? A. I DON'T REALLY THINK SO ANYMORE. I THOUGHT IT MIGHT, BUT I THINK THE EXTENT OF ENRICHMENT HERE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 277 IS NOT THAT GREAT, AND ALSO I THINK THE GREENHOUSE STUDY, YOU KNOW, REALLY SHOWED THAT NEITHER SPECIES RESPONDED, YOU KNOW, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER TO THE SALINITY -- TO THE SODIUM SALINITY TREATMENTS. Q. SO, WE'VE ELIMINATED AT LEAST ONE PARAMETER WE CAN WORRY ABOUT? A. WELL, I -- I'M NOT SAYING RULE IT OUT COMPLETELY, BUT I'M NOT SO INTERESTED IN IT ANYMORE. I MEAN, I--- Q. OKAY. ON THE NEXT PAGE -- WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO BE PRETTY CAREFUL AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS -- ON THE NEXT PAGE, I AM -- ABOUT IN THE LOWER MID-HALF AFTER THE AERIAL EXTENT, IT SAYS, "PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION ALONG THE GRADIENT IS A FUNCTION OF SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION DECREASING AS SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS DECREASES." OKAY. IS THAT YOUR BELIEF THAT THIS HAPPENS? A. WELL, I JUST THINK BASED ON THE SURFACE WATER CHEMISTRY -- SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS, AS IT GOES DOWN WITH DISTANCE, THE ACCUMULATION RATE GOES DOWN. SO, THE DATA SUPPORTS THAT OR SUGGESTS THAT. Q. ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT SENTENCE SAYS THAT, "THESE FINDINGS SUGGESTS THAT AS INFLOW PHOSPHORUS DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 278 CONCENTRATIONS DECREASE, PROGRESSIVELY LARGER WETLAND AREAS WILL BE NEEDED TO REMOVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS THAT IS SEQUESTERED IN A SMALLER WETLAND EXPOSED TO HIGHER INPUT PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS." I THINK THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT, I NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PERCENTAGE OF DECREASE? A. NO, NO, JUST LIKE GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR. Q. WHEN YOU GO -- LET ME JUST -- SO, I UNDERSTAND THESE CONCEPTS. WHEN YOU GO FROM, LET'S SAY, A HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION TO FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION -- IF YOU WERE TRYING TO REDUCE THE TOTAL PHOSPHORUS SURFACE WATER CONCENTRATIONS COMING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS -- THE AMOUNT OF LAND THAT YOU WOULD NEED, ARE YOU SAYING THAT IF YOU WANTED TO GO FROM FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION DOWN TO, LET'S SAY, TEN, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE YOU GOING TO NEED AN INCREASINGLY LARGE AMOUNT OF LAND, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? A. TO REMOVE -- LET'S SAY YOU WANT TO REMOVE TEN METRIC TONS OF PHOSPHORUS, AND YOU HAVE AN INFLOW CONCENTRATION OF FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 279 Q. OKAY. A. AND THEN -- BUT YOU ALSO -- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE ANOTHER WETLAND THAT YOU WANT TO REMOVE TEN METRIC TONS ALSO, BUT THE INFLOW CONCENTRATION THERE IS ONLY TEN PARTS PER BILLION. I THINK THAT YOU'LL NEED A LARGER AMOUNT OF AREA AT THAT -- TO REMOVE THE SAME TEN METRIC TONS FOR THAT ONE THAT RECEIVES TEN PARTS PER BILLION. Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE RELATIONSHIP, AS YOU GO FROM, LET'S SAY, FIFTY DOWN TO TEN, IS LINEAR? A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, I DON'T KNOW. Q. OKAY. I AM ADVISED THAT I NEED TO RETURN TO CONCENTRATIONS AND NOT LOADING. SO, LET'S TRY IT AGAIN AND SEE SO I CAN UNDERSTAND. I'M SURE THEY ALL DO, BUT I NEED TO. IF WE GO FROM ONE FIFTY, WHICH IS LARGELY WHAT'S COMING OFF THE EAA, DOWN TO FIFTY -- FIFTY PPB CONCENTRATION TOTAL PHOSPHORUS, LET'S SAY WE'VE SHIFTED, NOW WE WANT TO -- IN A PERFECT WORLD, NOW WE WANT TO GO FROM FIFTY PPB DOWN TO TEN, WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE AMOUNT OF LAND? CONCENTRATION, WE'RE LOOKING AT GETTING CONCENTRATIONS. A. AGAIN, I'M JUST TALKING HERE ABOUT IF YOU WANT TO MOVE THE SAME TONNAGE, OR, YOU KNOW, MASS, THEN IF DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 280 THE CONCENTRATION IS VERY HIGH YOU'LL ACHIEVE MORE REMOVAL IN GROUNDS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR THAN IF YOU -- OR TONS, THAN IF YOU HAVE A MUCH LOWER CONCENTRATION, BUT YOU WANT TO REMOVE THAT SAME AMOUNT. Q. SO, YOU ARE -- ALL OF YOUR STATEMENTS REFER ONLY TO LOADING--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---IS THAT ACCURATE? A. RIGHT. Q. SO, YOUR STATEMENTS ARE NOT APPLICABLE IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT CONCENTRATIONS--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---COMING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---AREA? A. THIS PAPER, AS FAR AS I WOULD KNOW -- I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN-DEPTH -- DOES NOT REALLY ADDRESS THE CONCENTRATION QUESTION. Q. OKAY. BUT LET ME ASK YOU, SINCE YOU'VE WORKED IN THIS AREA, WHAT YOUR OPINION IS IN THAT REGARD. A. OKAY. IF YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION OR SAY IT AGAIN. Q. WELL, WHAT I'M TRYING TO ASK YOU, ARE YOU GOING TO DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 281 NEED INCREASING AMOUNTS OF LAND TO GET INCREASINGLY LOWER CONCENTRATIONS? A. IF YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE SAME AMOUNT--- Q. NO, NOT -- LET'S LEAVE THE LOAD ALONE, LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THE CONCENTRATION, CAN YOU DO IT THAT WAY? A. NOT -- NO. I MEAN, MAYBE IF I THOUGHT ABOUT IT FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS I COULD, BUT RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, I DON'T -- I CAN'T ADDRESS THE QUESTION. Q. ALL RIGHT. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE THAT WE'VE JUST BEEN ON, YOU SAY, "INPUT RATES EXCEEDING THIS LOADING COULD RESULT IN AN EXPANSION OF THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES UNTIL A NEW EQUILIBRIUM SIZE IS REACHED." DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EQUILIBRIUM CAN BE HANDLED THROUGH MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES? A. I THINK UP TO A POINT IT COULD BE -- TO SOME EXTENT, CERTAINLY. Q. WHAT WOULD THE POINT BE? A. THAT I CANNOT -- I DON'T KNOW, I MEAN--- Q. YOU MEAN -- DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE YOU SIMPLY COULDN'T MANAGE IT THROUGH MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES? A. SURE. I MEAN, IF IT WAS RECEIVING, SAY, TWO DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 282 HUNDRED METRIC TONS OF P PER YEAR, I'M NOT SURE ANY KIND OF MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES WOULD, YOU KNOW, WOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP IT--- Q. OKAY. BECAUSE OF THIS--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---BECAUSE OF THE SIZE--- A. BUT, I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE--- Q. ---I MEAN, IT'S JUST INADEQUATE SIZING? A. ---SOME TECHNIQUES THAT COULD BE POTENTIALLY BE USED TO, YOU KNOW, TO KEEP IT -- TO HAVE IT CONTINUE STORING PHOSPHORUS AND TO KEEP IT AT THE SAME SIZE. Q. OKAY. SUCH AS? A. WELL, YOU CAN REMOVE THE VEGETATION, WHICH IS SOMETHING EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT, BUT IT'S NOT PRACTICAL, SO. Q. WHY? A. WELL, I CAN'T SEE ANYBODY GETTING INTO THOSE PEAT-BASED WETLANDS AND TRYING TO CUT DOWN ALL THAT SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL AND CARRYING IT OFF THE SITE. I MEAN, YOU COULD DO IT, THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS COULD DO IT, BUT THE COST WOULD JUST BE OUT OF THIS WORLD. MAYBE SOME WATER LEVEL MANIPULATION, YOU KNOW, COULD ENHANCE, OR, YOU DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 283 KNOW, BY INCREASING THE HYDROPERIOD SOME, MAYBE ENHANCE THE BUILDUP OF PEAT AND PHOSPHORUS STORAGE. AND THEN THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT DIFFERENT PLANT SPECIES REMOVE DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF PEAT, AND THAT MAYBE--- Q. DO YOU SUPPORT THAT BELIEF? A. I THINK -- YEAH, BUT I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, YOU KNOW, WHICH SPECIES DO BETTER THAN OTHERS, AND I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT SOME OF THAT TYPE OF WORK, YOU KNOW, OR THOSE SORTS OF IDEAS. Q. WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION? A. WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT BECAUSE CATTAIL IS MORE PRODUCTIVE YOU CAN SEQUESTER MORE PHOSPHORUS. BUT MY EXPERIENCE IN THE FIELD IS IS THAT IT MAY HAVE MORE PRODUCTIVITY, BUT I DON'T THINK CATTAIL PRODUCES THE HIGH QUALITY RESISTANT PEAT THAT SAWGRASS PRODUCES. I THINK CATTAIL PROBABLY DECOMPOSES MORE QUICKLY THAN SAWGRASS, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, BY MAYBE REPLACEMENT OF, YOU KNOW, PUTTING CATTAIL IN TO ENHANCE PRODUCTIVITY YOU MAY HAVE AN INCREASE IN DECOMPOSITION THAT WILL OFFSET ANY INCREASE IN PRODUCTION. Q. IS THERE A GENERAL PRINCIPAL OF THINGS THAT GROW DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 284 FASTER ROT FASTER? A. I DON'T KNOW, I'VE NOT HEARD THAT. BUT CATTAIL HAS THIS AERENCHYMA TISSUE, AIRSPACES IN IT, AND SAWGRASS HAS A LOT OF SILICA IN IT, WHICH IS VERY RESISTANT. WELL, IT DOESN'T DECOMPOSE, IT'S ESSENTIALLY LIKE QUARTZ ROCK, SO. Q. IS ANYONE DOING ANY RESEARCH ON WHAT WOULD REMOVE MORE AND HOLD IT LONGER? A. NO, NO. NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF. Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE USEFUL FOR THESE ISSUES THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT? A. I THINK SO, YEAH. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY NO ONE'S LOOKING AT THAT? A. HUH-UH (NO), I DON'T. Q. OKAY. A. SO MUCH TO DO; SO LITTLE TIME. Q. UH-HUH (YES). JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES IS CURRENTLY STABLE? A. WHAT I'M IMPLYING -- AND IMPLY IS THE GOOD WORD, I THINK, TO USE -- IS THAT IF IT'S CONTINUED TO LOAD WITH ABOUT FIFTY METRIC TONS PER YEAR, WHICH IS APPROXIMATELY THE STORAGE RATE, THEN IT PROBABLY -- IT MAY WELL BE AN EQUILIBRIUM. BUT IF DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 285 YOU EXCEED THAT TO, SAY, EIGHTY METRIC TONS A YEAR FOR ONE YEAR, YOU KNOW, I HAVE SOME CONCERNS AS TO WHETHER IT WILL, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT WILL STAY AN EQUILIBRIUM OR WHETHER IT'LL EXPAND, AND I SAY THAT, SO. Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. BUT WHAT WAS THE CONCEPT OF SATURATION WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, HOW DOES THAT FACTOR INTO THIS? A. WELL, I THINK IT MAY BE AT FIFTY TO FIFTY-FIVE METRIC TONS PER YEAR. ONE THING ABOUT PEAT ACCRETION IS YOU DON'T SATURATE IT LIKE YOU WOULD SATURATE A SOIL EXCHANGE COMPLEX WHERE YOU GET SO MUCH PHOSPHORUS -- YOU KNOW, YOU FILL ALL THE EXCHANGE SITES WITH PHOSPHORUS. REMEMBER, PEAT IN THE EVERGLADES HAS BUILT UP OVER FIVE THOUSAND YEARS, AND IN SOME PLACES WE HAVE THREE, FOUR METERS OF PEAT. AND SO EVERY YEAR YOU CAN GET A LITTLE BIT MORE INCREMENT OF PEAT BUILDING UP. SO, I MEAN, IN TERMS OF SATURATION, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE IF THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE WAY TO LOOK AT IT. Q. IT WAS YOUR IDEA, WASN'T IT, THE SATURATION CONCEPT? A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT I SAID. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 286 Q. WELL, DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT NOW? A. SURE. Q. CAUSE I THOUGHT YOU SAID IT, I DIDN'T BRING IT UP. APPROACHING SATURATION WAS ON PAGE 19. YOU SAID THAT -- ON PAGE 19, STARTING ON LINE NINE THROUGH SIXTEEN--- A. NOW, IS THIS PREVIOUS -- THIS IS NUMBER FIVE? Q. CRAFT FIVE, RIGHT, RIGHT. I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND IT, BUT I'M BEGINNING TO KNOW YOUR PAPERS. A. AND WHAT LINE? Q. PAGE 19, LINES NINE THROUGH SIXTEEN, YOU TALK ABOUT, "THE ENRICHED AREA MAY BE APPROACHING SATURATION WITH RESPECT TO PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION." A. AND I DO SAY IT MAY BE APPROACHING SATURATION. AND YOU ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS PRELIMINARY WORK THAT WAS DONE BEFORE THIS WORK WAS PERFORMED. Q. OH, SO, IN OTHER WORDS, CRAFT NUMBER FIVE IS PRELIMINARY DATA, YOU BELIEVE THAT CRAFT NUMBER SIXTEEN IS MORE COMPREHENSIVE DATA? A. WELL, FOR THE ENRICHED AREA, NO QUESTION. THERE'S NO QUESTION. THIS HAS TWO CORES FROM THE ENRICHED AREA AND THIS HAS EIGHTEEN. SO -- AND THIS IS PART OF THE ITERATIVE PROCESS. YOU GET SOME DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 287 INFORMATION, AND YOU TRY TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF IT, AND YOU GO BACK TO THESE AREAS OF INTEREST AND YOU COLLECT MORE INFORMATION. Q. SO, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF REGARDING THE ENRICHED AREA, THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES IN THE TOP OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A? A. I AM NOT READY TO SAY THAT IT'S IN EQUILIBRIUM; I THINK MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE. LIKE ANY GOOD SCIENTIST WOULD SAY. Q. IS THIS CALLED JOB SECURITY? A. NO, IT'S JUST I'M NOT GOING TO STEP OUT ON A LIMB, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. I THINK I HAVE SOME; SOME INFORMATION THAT POINTS US IN CERTAIN DIRECTIONS, BUT I DON'T CLAIM TO HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS TO THIS. Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD WE KNOW? WHAT RESEARCH WOULD WE DO TO DECIDE IF 2A, THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES, IS IN EQUILIBRIUM? A. I THINK THE CONTINUED MONITORING OF PERMANENT PLOTS TO SEE WHETHER THE FRONT IS MOVING SOUTH. BUT I THINK TO DO THAT, AND TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT HAS STABILIZED, YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE LOADING RATE DOESN'T EXCEED THIS FIFTY TO DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 288 FIFTY-FIVE METRIC TONS. YOU WOULD HAVE TO KEEP THE LOADING RATE CONSTANT FROM YEAR TO YEAR, AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO DO. Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE IT'S GOING TO INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY? A. I DON'T KNOW; I JUST DON'T KNOW. Q. OKAY. I GUESS IT WAS OUR HOPE THAT IT WAS GOING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION. A. IT MAY HAVE STABILIZED, I JUST DON'T KNOW. Q. HOW MUCH DATA WOULD YOU NEED BEFORE YOU COULD DETERMINE IF IT WERE STABILIZED? A. OH, WELL, I'M GOING TO RETIRE IN ABOUT TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. SO, I THINK WE NEED ABOUT TWENTY-FIVE YEARS WORTH OF DATA TO--- Q. SERIOUSLY, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THIS A VERY SERIOUS CONCEPT, WHETHER IT IS IN EQUILIBRIUM OR NOT, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE WE NEED MORE DATA BEFORE WE MAKE THAT TYPE OF A CONSIDERATION. SO, I'M ASKING YOU HOW MUCH DATA DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD NEED? A. I THINK -- WELL, LET'S SAY HYPOTHETICALLY YOU COULD LIMIT THE LOADING OF PHOSPHORUS TO THIS AREA TO FIFTY METRIC TONS A YEAR FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS AND MONITOR THESE PERMANENT LOCATIONS, AND I DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 289 THINK IF YOU DON'T SEE AN ADVANCE OF THE FRONT, THAT WOULD BE SOME PRETTY STRONG EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT IT HAS STABILIZED. Q. OKAY. NOW -- ALL RIGHT. LET'S ASSUME THAT WE DON'T SEE THE FRONT ADVANCING, THINGS JUST STAY STABLE. THEN WE START TO SEE SOME LITTLE CHANGES. HOW DO WE DECIDE WHEN THE FRONT IS ADVANCING? A. WELL, THAT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT YOU WOULD MEASURE, SURFACE WATER, PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION, MIGHT BE ONE THING. I THINK RON HERE HAS DONE THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY AS A POTENTIAL INDICATOR. I FIND THAT MACROPHYTES TAKE UP PHOSPHORUS PRETTY DANG QUICKLY, AND I THINK IF YOU COULD MONITOR THE PHOSPHORUS CONTENT OF THE VEGETATION AND SEE IF IT STARTS TO INCREASE, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. Q. PORE WATER, WOULD YOU MONITOR PORE WATER? A. YOU COULD, BUT MY FEELING IS, IS I DON'T THINK IT IS AS GOOD OF AN INDICATOR AS SOME OF THESE OTHER THINGS. Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU WOULD MONITOR SURFACE WATER FIRST. A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT FIRST, MAYBE ALTOGETHER. Q. OKAY. YOU WOULD LOOK AT SURFACE WATER, YOU WOULD LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION IN THE MACROPHYTES, AND YOU WOULD LOOK AT ALKALINE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 290 PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY? A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY, BUT I HAVE HEARD ENOUGH TO WHERE IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING TO USE AS A WAY TO DETERMINE THE--- Q. OKAY. ARE YOU GOING TO DO ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY AT THE DOSING STUDY? A. I DON'T KNOW, SINCE I'M NOT INVOLVED IN IT, AND THAT'S -- THAT'S MORE A MICROBIOLOGIST'S TECHNIQUE, AND I'M NOT A MICROBIOLOGIST, SO. Q. AND WHEN YOU START TO -- LET'S JUST -- GOING BACK TO MY HYPOTHETICAL -- WHEN YOU STARTED TO SEE SHIFTS IN THE SURFACE WATER AND THE PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION IN THE MACROPHYTES AND, LET'S SAY, IF WE DID ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE, WE SAW INCREASE/DECREASE -- WHATEVER -- HOW WOULD YOU DETERMINE WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAD A FRONT SHIFTING DOWNSTREAM? A. WELL, I GUESS IF YOU SAW AN INCREASE IN THE SURFACE WATER P AND THE UPTAKE BY THE MACROPHYTES, THAT WOULD SUGGEST -- AND I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY, SO. Q. PUT THAT ASIDE, THAT'S OKAY. IF YOU SAW AN INCREASE IN THE OTHERS THAT WOULD INDICATE THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 291 FRONT WAS MOVING? A. AND YOU MAY HAVE TO ACTUALLY -- I MEAN, AS MUCH AS IS AT STAKE AT THIS, YOU MAY HAVE TO SET UP A LOT OF PERMANENT PLOTS AND TRY TO DO SOME STATISTICAL ANALYSIS TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT IS A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE. AS YOU CAN SEE, FIELD DATA HAS QUITE A BIT OF VARIABILITY. Q. SO, YOU WOULD WANT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN THE READINGS? A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD WANT -- THIS, AGAIN, IS HYPOTHETICAL AND THIS MIGHT BE AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT. AND THERE ARE PROBABLY OTHER PARAMETERS YOU CAN MEASURE--- Q. SURE. A. ---BUT I'M -- AGAIN, I'M -- I DON'T KNOW, THIS ISN'T MY LIVELIHOOD IN TERMS OF TRYING TO DETERMINE THIS AREA. Q. WHAT IS AT STAKE? YOU SAID, "CONSIDERING WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE," WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE? A. WELL, I JUST THINK THAT THE WHOLE IDEA OF TRYING TO SETTLE THE ISSUE OF PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT OF THE EVERGLADES, AND WHO PAYS. AND -- I MEAN, I READ THE NEWSPAPERS, AND I KNOW THAT THEY WANT TO SPEND FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 292 ($400,000,000.00) TO BUILD THESE STORMWATER TREATMENT AREAS, AND AS A TAXPAYER IN FLORIDA, I WOULD -- YOU KNOW, THAT'S NO SMALL CHANGE, SO. Q. HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT WHAT IT COST TO CLEANUP SUPERFUND SITES? A. WELL, I THINK THEY'VE GOT BILLIONS EARMARKED, I KNOW THAT, SO. Q. YEAH, I KNOW. A. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH, BUT IT'S A LOT. Q. YEAH, AND LANDFILL SITES, HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT THE FIGURES FOR WHAT IT COSTS TO DO LANDFILL SITES? A. (NODS NEGATIVELY.) Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU INDICATED THE EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT EFFICIENCY FOR PHOSPHORUS, DOES THAT INDICATE THAT YOU THINK THIS AREA IS IN EQUILIBRIUM, THE UNENRICHED AREA, UP THROUGH THE ENRICHED? A. I DON'T--- Q. I'M SORRY, STRIKE THE QUESTION, STRIKE THE QUESTION. YOU INDICATED EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT FOR THE ENRICHED AREA, DIDN'T YOU, EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT EFFICIENCY? A. RIGHT. Q. DOES THAT INDICATE THAT IT'S IN EQUILIBRIUM? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 293 A. I DON'T KNOW. I THINK I RECALL THAT THERE, SINCE IT WAS LESS THAN A HUNDRED PERCENT, THAT IT WOULD SUGGEST THAT MAYBE -- I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN IT'S HARD TO SAY, EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT IS NOT TOO FAR OFF OF ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. AND IN THIS KIND OF WORK THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IT MAY BE WITHIN THE REALM OF THE ERRORS. Q. OKAY. IT COULD INDICATE THAT THE FRONT IS MOVING, OR IT COULD INDICATE THAT IT'S STABLE? A. I DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT SAYING -- TALKING ABOUT THAT IN TERMS OF -- SINCE IT'S BASED ON TWO SOIL CORES FROM THAT AREA. AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE THIS IS A MORE IN-DEPTH TREATMENT OF THAT AREA. Q. OKAY. HOW MANY CORES IS THIS BASED ON? A. THIS IS BASED ON EIGHTEEN. Q. AND THEN HOW MANY REPLICATES DID YOU TAKE? A. WELL, ESSENTIALLY WE DIDN'T TAKE ANY REPLICATES, EXCEPT FOR CESIUM ANALYSIS. Q. OKAY. AND FOR THAT YOU TOOK VARYING NUMBERS? A. WELL, AT LIKE FOUR LOCATIONS, WE -- WE NEVER TOOK TRUE REPLICATES. WE WENT OUT AND RAN THE THREE TRANSECTS AND TOOK THE CORES, AND WE DID THE CESIUM PROFILES. AND WE FOUND AT SOME SITES THE CESIUM PROFILES WERE NOT THAT GOOD. SO, WE WENT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 294 BACK TO THOSE SITES A YEAR LATER AND TOOK SOME ADDITIONAL CORES TO TRY TO SEE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THE NUMBERS JUST -- THE SITES HAD POOR CESIUM PROFILES, OR JUST TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON IT. BUT THOSE AREN'T TRUE REPLICATES, SINCE THEY'RE COLLECTED A YEAR APART. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU TOOK FOR THIS GRADIENT STUDY ONE CORE PER SITE AT THE EIGHTEEN SITES? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. AND THEN FOR THE CESIUM, JUST -- I'M SORRY, YOU KNOW, I LOSE IT SOMETIMES. YOU TOOK CESIUM AT WHICH OF THESE SITES? A. IT'S IN THE TEXT IN THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION, I SAY THAT WE WENT BACK TO, I DON'T KNOW, I THINK C1 WAS ONE SITE AND MAYBE C5 WAS A SITE. IT SAYS HERE -- WELL, TOO BAD, I DON'T HAVE PAGE NUMBERS. IT'S THE FIRST PAGE OF THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION. Q. OKAY. A. BUT WE WENT BACK FOR CESIUM AT--- Q. WHERE ARE WE NOW--- A. THE VERY -- YEAH. Q. ---I'M NOT WITH YOU. A. GO THROUGH THE INTRO AND THE MATERIALS AND METHODS TO THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 295 Q. OKAY. A. YOU'VE GOT SIX OR EIGHT PAGES TO GO THROUGH. Q. OKAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: THAT'S IT THERE. Q. I'M AT IT, YEAH. A. OKAY. AND IT'S IN THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH ABOUT SEVEN LINES DOWN WHERE -- WELL, ACTUALLY, THE SECOND -- THE THIRD SENTENCE. WE COLLECTED ADDITIONAL CORES FROM 10A2, 10C1, AND 10C5 IN JUNE 1991 TO VERIFY THE LOCATION OF CESIUM PEAKS AT THESE SITES. AND THEN IN THE NEXT SENTENCE, WE BASICALLY TAKE THE AVERAGE OF THE TWO CORES, AND THERE'S REALLY PRETTY GOOD AGREEMENT CONSIDERING THEY'RE A YEAR APART. Q. IS THERE A REASON YOU DIDN'T DO REPLICATES? A. NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF. CESIUM -- THESE ARE ALL -- YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, IT'S NOT -- WHEN YOU TAKE ONE CORE, IT'S NOT ONE SAMPLE. YOU HAVE TO SLICE IT INTO DEPTH INCREMENTS, AND SO YOU END UP WITH, LIKE, FIFTEEN TO TWENTY TO THIRTY SAMPLES FOR EACH CORE. SO, IN TERMS OF NUMBERS OF SAMPLES, YOU KNOW, ONE CORE YIELDS, YOU KNOW, TWENTY TO THIRTY SAMPLES. AND SO WHEN YOU MULTIPLY THAT BY EIGHTEEN, YOU START GETTING DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 296 UP THERE IN THE, YOU KNOW, THE HUNDREDS OF SAMPLES, THREE HUNDRED SAMPLES AFTER NOT TOO LONG. Q. I HEAR YOU. ON THE SECOND PAGE, YOU TALK ABOUT -- THE BOTTOM OF THE FIRST FULL PARAGRAPH THAT YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT -- THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT, AND THEN YOU SAY, "CONCURRENT WITH THE ENRICHMENT AND ENHANCED SURFACE FLOW HAVE BEEN A SHIFT IN PLANT SPECIES COMPOSITION FROM A COMMUNITY DOMINATED BY SAWGRASS AND SLOUGH SPECIES TO ONE CONSISTING PRIMARILY OF CATTAIL." A. ARE WE -- SECOND PAGE OF THE INTRODUCTION, IS THIS RIGHT? Q. YES, SIR. A. OKAY, I SEE IT. Q. OKAY. DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT? I THINK YOU WROTE IT, DIDN'T YOU? A. YES. BUT YOU CAN SEE I CITE THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND, I MEAN, I THINK I PROBABLY AGREE WITH IT, BUT I HAVEN'T PERSONALLY -- I WASN'T PERSONALLY OUT THERE IN THE 1970'S TO SEE WHAT THE VEGETATION WAS THEN AND WHAT IT IS NOW. SO, YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THESE PEOPLE SAW IT, AND--- DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 297 Q. YOU HAVE NO DATA TO DISAGREE WITH IT? A. NO, HUH-UH (NO). Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT DOES ENHANCED SURFACE FLOW MEAN? A. AN INCREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF WATER FLOWING ACROSS THE SITE. Q. INCREASE OVER WHAT? A. OVER PROBABLY WHAT IT WAS IN THE HISTORICAL DAYS. Q. WAS THAT -- OKAY, THAT'S JUST YOUR EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD CONCEPT OUT OF THE SWIM PLAN? A. YEAH, I THINK SO. I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE SAME SORT OF THING. Q. AND THAT'S THE SOURCE OF YOUR INFORMATION FOR THAT? A. ACTUALLY, I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE REFERENCES TO SEE WHETHER THAT--- Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ON THE NEXT PAGE -- WE ARE NOW THREE PAGES INTO YOUR INTRODUCTION -- YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE -- "ALTHOUGH CHANGES IN COMMUNITY STRUCTURE HAVE OCCURRED IN RESPONSE TO ALTERATIONS IN WATER FLOWS AND NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, THE EFFECTS OF AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE ON ECOSYSTEM LEVEL PROCESSES, SUCH AS NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY, HAVE NOT BEEN QUANTIFIED." CAN YOU DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 298 DEFINE THE ROLE OF THE WATER FLOW VERSUS THE NUTRIENTS? A. AGAIN, THAT'S, TO ME, THE BIG QUESTION, IS TRY TO SEPARATE THOSE OUT. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. I DON'T THINK I -- YOU KNOW, IF I COULD HAVE MADE A STAB AT IT, I THINK I WOULD HAVE DONE IT. Q. OKAY. THEN YOU GO ON TO SAY, "NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, ESPECIALLY PHOSPHORUS, MAY STIMULATE NET PRIMARY PRODUCTION OF EVERGLADES MACROPHYTES RESULTING IN AN INCREASE IN PEAT ACCRETION IN ENRICHED AREAS AS COMPARED TO UNIMPACTED AREAS THAT DO NOT RECEIVE AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE." WHERE ARE THESE UNIMPACTED AREAS? A. OKAY. THESE ARE IN THAT AREA IN 2A, TO THE SOUTHWEST OF THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND CERTAINLY IN CONSERVATION AREA 3A, IN THAT INTERIOR AREA. Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU CONSIDER THE FURTHERMOST POINTS OF 10D, 10C, AND 10A, YOUR GRADIENTS, THAT YOU CONSIDER THOSE UNIMPACTED AREAS? A. NO, THIS IS -- SEE, WHEN YOU WRITE THE INTRODUCTION, YOU DON'T BRING IN ANY OF THE DATA IN THE CURRENT PAPER. THIS IS BASED ON THE PAPER THAT WE TALKED ABOUT THIS MORNING, THE DATA FROM IT. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 299 Q. UH-HUH (YES). OH, YOU MEAN FROM YOUR SEVEN SITES, WHEN YOU FIRST DID YOUR RESEARCH? A. RIGHT. FROM NUMBER FIVE, RIGHT. Q. AND THOSE ARE THE 3A SITE AND THE UNENRICHED SITE NEAR THE 217 GAUGE? A. YES. AND PERHAPS 2B, TOO, ALTHOUGH THAT AREA HAS A DIFFERENCE IN HYDROPERIOD, OR AT LEAST IT'S BELIEVED TO HAVE A DIFFERENCE IN HYDROPERIOD. Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU ESSENTIALLY CONCEDING, DR. CRAFT, THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHED AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE IS IMPACTING THE EVERGLADES? A. I WOULD SAY THAT THE -- YEAH, THERE ARE SOME CHANGES THAT SEEM TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE PHOSPHORUS ADDITION, SURE. Q. AND THESE ARE COMMUNITY SHIFTS AND THE OTHER CHANGES THAT WE'VE DISCUSSED OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAY? A. AND THERE SEEMS TO BE AN INCREASE IN PEAT ACCRETION TO SOME EXTENT. Q. OKAY. YOU TALK ABOUT THE FRONT ON THE FINAL PAGE OF YOUR INTRODUCTION, "ALTHOUGH THE ENRICHED AREA" -- ARE YOU WITH ME? A. YES. Q. "ALTHOUGH THE ENRICHED AREA HAS FUNCTIONED DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 300 EFFECTIVELY AS A SINK FOR PHOSPHORUS FOR THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, THERE IS CONCERN THAT THE EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL WILL DECREASE OVER TIME RESULTING IN A FRONT OF PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT PENETRATING FURTHER SOUTH INTO THE EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEM, AND EVENTUALLY REACHING EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK." I GUESS, I HAVE TWO -- A QUESTION. THERE ARE TWO CONCERNS IN THIS PAPER. ONE IS THIS CONCEPT OF THE FRONT AND THE THREAT TO THE PARK, IS THAT RIGHT? A. WELL, OR JUST THE -- YEAH, THE POTENTIAL INCREASE IN THE SIZE OF THIS AREA OF ENRICHMENT. Q. AND THE SECOND IS THE DESIGN OF THE STA'S, WHAT INFORMATION COULD BE EXTRAPOLATED TO BE APPLIED TO STA'S? A. POTENTIALLY, SURE. Q. IS THAT THE GOAL OF THE RESEARCH? A. NO. BECAUSE YOU SEE THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE HERE ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE IS JUST TO CHARACTERIZE THE RECENT RATES OF ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION ALONG THIS GRADIENT. AND THEN THERE ARE ADDITIONAL OBJECTIVES THAT DO HAVE SOME OF THESE MANAGEMENT IMPLICATIONS. Q. WELL, I THINK WHAT I'VE BEEN DRIVING AT, I GUESS DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 301 ALMOST FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS MORNING WAS, ARE WE REALLY LOOKING AT CONCEPTS THAT WILL AID US IN MANAGEMENT. IS THAT WHAT -- IS THAT THE GOAL OF THIS RESEARCH? A. SURE, I THINK TO SOME -- YEAH, TO A LARGE EXTENT, IT IS. IT'S APPLIED SORT OF RESEARCH TO DETER -- TO TRY TO USE INFORMATION THAT EXISTS IN THIS AREA, TO TRY TO SOLVE SOME OF THE PROBLEMS IN THE EVERGLADES. Q. SO, WHEN YOU SAT DOWN AND DID YOUR DESIGNS, YOU WERE LOOKING AT ECOLOGICAL MANAGEMENT CONCEPTS? A. RIGHT. BUT AT THAT TIME, WE WEREN'T -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T EVEN THINK I KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE STA'S. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THESE CORES WERE COLLECTED TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. THEY MAY HAVE HAD SOMETHING WITH THE SWIM PLAN, WATER MANAGEMENT AREAS OR SOMETHING. THE NAME CHANGES ALL THE TIME, SO. Q. BUT YOU WERE FAMILIAR WITH THE CONCEPT OF FLOWWAYS--- A. SURE. Q. ---OR WHATEVER THEY'RE CALLED THROUGHOUT THE LITERATURE? A. I'VE WORKED IN CONSTRUCTIVE WETLANDS FOR TEN DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 302 YEARS, SO I'M NOT, YOU KNOW, UNAWARE OF CONSTRUCTIVE WETLANDS TO REMOVE NUTRIENTS, I MEAN--- Q. AND IT'S AN EFFECTIVE TECHNIQUE, IS THAT RIGHT? A. IT CAN WORK. I THINK -- YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A HUGE ADVOCATE OF GOING OUT AND BUILDING WETLANDS EVERYWHERE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT WILL ALWAYS WORK. Q. WHY NOT? A. IT JUST -- I THINK IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH -- WHAT THE INPUT, HOW MUCH -- WHAT THE CONCENTRATION OF THE INFLOW IS, WHAT'S THE MASS LOADING, HOW THE WETLAND IS GOING TO FUNCTION. YOU HAVE TO DO A LOT OF THINGS TO GET -- YOU'VE GOT TO GET IT TO WORK LIKE A WETLAND, FIRST. YOU'VE GOT TO GET THE HYDROLOGY RIGHT; YOU'VE GOT TO GET THE SOILS TO FUNCTION AS WETLAND SOILS; THOSE KIND OF THINGS. Q. HAVE YOU AT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER LOOKED INTO HOW TO GET THE HYDROLOGY RIGHT TO MAKE A FLOWWAY, OR A CONSTRUCTED WETLAND WORK SO THAT IT WOULD REMOVE THE MOST PHOSPHORUS? A. I HAVEN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I MEAN, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE IDEAS OF, YOU KNOW, DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 303 TRYING TO CONSTRUCT WETLANDS TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS. I MEAN, DR. RICHARDSON HAS BEEN WORKING WITH WETLANDS AND PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL FOR FIFTEEN YEARS, SO, YOU KNOW. Q. HAS HE ACTUALLY HELPED DESIGN WETLAND CLEANUP AREAS? A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE BELIEVES THAT THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL TECHNIQUES? A. AGAIN, THAT'S SOMETHING I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK HIM. I DON'T REALLY -- I MEAN, I THINK HE MAY BE LIKE ME -- I THINK THEY CAN WORK, BUT I DON'T -- YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY DON'T WORK. YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HAVE TO--- Q. SURE. IN ORDER FOR THEM TO WORK IN THE EVERGLADES, WHAT TYPE OF RESEARCH DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO DETERMINE HOW THEY WOULD WORK, OR HOW THEY COULD WORK, OR HOW THEY NEED TO BE DESIGNED? A. AGAIN, I THINK THE INFORMATION IN THIS PAPER PROVIDES SOME INFORMATION ON RELATING THE CONCENTRATIONS -- YOU KNOW, SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS TO REMOVAL RATES. IF THEY'RE -- ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 304 DESIGN A PEAT BASED CONSTRUCTIVE WETLAND. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER WORKED WITH A WETLAND SYSTEM THAT DIDN'T WORK? A. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SYSTEMS THAT MAY WORK INITIALLY, BUT THEN THEY SEEM TO QUIT WORKING. Q. OKAY. AND WHY DID THEY QUIT WORKING? A. WELL, THAT, NOBODY -- THAT WAS NEVER REALLY ADDRESSED, OR THEY'RE TRYING TO LOOK AT THOSE SORTS OF THINGS NOW. THEY TEND TO BE MORE MINERAL BASED SOILS, AND THE MECHANISMS FOR PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL ARE DIFFERENT IN THOSE. Q. OKAY. TELL ME HOW JUST YOU WOULD TAKE YOUR INFORMATION AND LIFT THIS AND PUT IT INTO THE DESIGN OF A FLOWWAY, OR A WETLAND TREATMENT SYSTEM, OR AN STA, WHATEVER WE WANT TO CALL THIS CLEANUP WETLAND. A. I THINK WE FIND THAT THESE PEAT BASED WETLANDS ON AN ANNUAL BASIS JUST DON'T REMOVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS. THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT THE AVERAGE ACCUMULATION RATE IN THESE ENRICHED AREAS IS AROUND A HALF A GRAM PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR. AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT NUMBER, AND LET'S SAY YOU WANT TO MOVE -- REMOVE "X" NUMBER OF TONS, THEN YOU CAN SAY, WELL, IF WE'RE GOING TO REMOVE A HALF DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 305 A GRAM PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR WITH THESE PEAT BASED SYSTEMS, THEN WE NEED, YOU KNOW, "X" NUMBER OF ACRES TO DO THAT. Q. OKAY. THEN IS IT JUST A MATTER OF SIZING THEM APPROPRIATELY? A. NO. I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT YOU MAY WANT TO TRY DIFFERENT TYPES OF PLANT SPECIES, SOME THAT MAY HAVE HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY, BUT ALSO PRODUCE WHAT I CONSIDER THIS HIGH QUALITY PEAT. THE KEY IS, IS TO GET THE -- TO GET THE THING LEVEL, TO GET THE GROUND ELEVATIONS RIGHT SO THAT THEY'RE NICE AND SMOOTH AND FLAT SO YOU GET ESSENTIALLY EVEN FLOW. AND ALSO TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE OPTIMUM WATER LEVEL IN IT AND FLOW RATE IS TO GET TO THE OPTIMUM PLANT GROWTH. YOU KNOW, YOU DUMP THREE FEET OF WATER INTO SOME OF THE THINGS AND I THINK YOU'LL KILL THE PLANTS, DEPENDING ON HOW LONG YOU LEAVE IT IN FOR. I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE SOME THINGS YOU CAN DO TO -- OTHER THAN SIZING IT. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU NEED TO GET THE GROUND LEVEL STRAIGHT, AND YOU NEED TO GET THE OPTIMUM WATER LEVEL STRAIGHT--- A. YEAH. Q. ---IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU--- DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 306 A. CHOOSE YOUR RIGHT MIX OF VEGETATION--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND FIGURE OUT WHAT YOUR, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOUR INFLOW P CONCENTRATION IS GOING TO BE AND HOW FAST IT'S GOING TO MOVE THROUGH THE SYSTEM. IF YOU PUMP IT THROUGH TOO FAST, IT MAY NOT BE THERE LONG ENOUGH TO GET MAXIMUM STORAGE OR MAXIMUM UPTAKE. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT YOUR RETENTION RATE. OKAY. AND WHAT ELSE? A. FLOW RATE, RETENTION RATE. Q. OKAY. A. I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE RIGHT