STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF ) FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural ) Cooperative Marketing Association, ) CASE NOS. 92-3038 ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040 ) and ) ) FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; ) UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; ) and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., ) ) and ) FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, ) W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and ) OF HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., ) ) CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT Petitioners, ) ) vs. ) ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT, an Agency of the State ) of Florida, ) ) Respondent, ) ) and ) ) MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF ) FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF ) AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and the ) FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, ) ) Intervenors. ) ___________________________________) AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA DECEMBER 7, 1992 - 9:00 A.M. REPORTED BY: PAMELA S. LILES CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 107 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PETITIONERS: MR. RICK BURGESS MR. WILLIAM H. GREEN PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS ONE BISCAYNE TOWER 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET SUITE 3636 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314 MAIMI, FLORIDA 33131 TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000 TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500 FOR THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR: MS. SUZAN HILL PONZOLI MR. PAUL L. NETTLETON ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH & SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA KAUFMAN, LTD. 155 SOUTH MIAMI AVENUE 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL SUITE 627 CENTER MIAMI, FLORIDA 33130 100 SE SECOND STREET MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131 TELEPHONE: (305) 536-4425 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050 FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY: MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN KING, WALKER, LAMBE & CRABTREE SUITE 100, 3708 MAYFAIR STREET POST OFFICE BOX 51549 DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA 27717-1549 TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411 ALSO PRESENT: DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON DUKE UNIVERSITY MR. RONALD D. JONES, Ph.D. FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY MR. JIM GRIMSHAW, Ph.D. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT MR. MARK D. MAFFEI, Ph.D. U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE MR. SAM ELSWICK ASPEN SYSTEMS CORPORATION DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 108 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X DEPONENT - CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT - 12/7-8/92 EXAMINATION BY: PAGES MS. PONZOLI 109-454 MR. NETTLETON 454-550 MR. BURGESS 550-554 MR. NETTLETON 554-555 MR. BURGESS 555-556 ------------------------------------------------------- E X H I B I T S I N D E X NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED (NO EXHIBITS WERE MARKED DURING THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF DR. CRAFT ON DECEMBER 7-8, 1992.) ------------------------------------------------------- SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT 557 CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER 558 DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 109 ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR, THE DEPOSITION OF DR. CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR AROUND 9:00 A.M. ON DECEMBER 7, 1992, AT THE HILTON HOTEL, HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE WALKER SUITE, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY PUBLIC. THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED. - - - - - - - - - - - WHEREUPON, CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI: Q. SIR, WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE? A. CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT. Q. ALL RIGHT. DR. CRAFT, WE ACTUALLY BEGAN YOUR DEPOSITION SOME WEEKS AGO WHERE WE RECEIVED YOUR DOCUMENTS, AND THEN WE SAID THAT WE WOULD BE RETURNING TODAY TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT SOME OR ALL OF THOSE DOCUMENTS. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 110 A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND YOU OF SOME OF THE INSTRUCTIONS WE GAVE YOU LAST TIME, THAT IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND A QUESTION THAT I ASK -- AND I'LL REMIND YOU THAT I AM NOT A SCIENTIST, I AM A LAWYER -- THEN, PLEASE LET ME KNOW AND I WILL TRY TO FASHION A BETTER AND MORE APPROPRIATE QUESTION FOR YOU. OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE DEALING WITH THIS MATERIAL ON DIFFERENT LEVELS SO WE HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN BETWEEN US. I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN TODAY, DR. CRAFT, QUESTIONING YOU ON DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE -- CRAFT NUMBER FIVE, WHICH IS A COMPOSITE EXHIBIT MAINLY INVOLVING A MANUSCRIPT ENTITLED, "PEAT ACCRETION AND NITROGEN, PHOSPHORUS AND ORGANIC CARBON ACCUMULATED IN NUTRIENT ENRICHED AND UNENRICHED EVERGLADES PEATLANDS," AUTHORED BY CRAFT AND RICHARDSON FROM THE DUKE UNIVERSITY WETLAND CENTER. AND I THINK I'VE GIVEN YOU A COPY OF YOUR EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE. MS. PONZOLI: AND THERE ARE A FEW EXTRA COPIES THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TABLE, I BELIEVE. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IF I UNDERSTAND THE COMPOSITE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 111 EXHIBIT, THIS PUBLICATION HAS BEEN ACCEPTED IN ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. AND IT WILL BE COMING OUT IN PRINT, WHEN? A. SOMETIME IN 1993. Q. OKAY. I GUESS WE CAN BEGIN FIRST, DR. CRAFT, WITH THE LETTER THAT YOU FORWARDED TO DR. GORHAM REGARDING THE PUBLICATION. I JUST HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ON THAT LETTER. A. OKAY. Q. YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE ADDRESSED REVIEWER COMMENTS IN SEVERAL FASHIONS. AND, AS I RECALL, YOU HAD DISCARDED THOSE REVIEWER COMMENTS PRIOR TO OUR REQUESTING YOUR DOCUMENTS. IS THAT CORRECT? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. WHAT WERE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE REVIEWER COMMENTS? A. BASICALLY -- ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THIS LETTER DATED SEPTEMBER 9TH, HERE? Q. NO. I'M REALLY TALKING MORE GLOBALLY AS TO ALL REVIEWER COMMENTS THAT YOU RECEIVED AT THAT TIME. HOW MANY ITERATIONS DID YOU GO THROUGH -- LET ME ASK YOU -- STRIKE THAT QUESTION, AND LET ME ASK DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 112 YOU A SECOND QUESTION. HOW MANY ITERATIONS OF THIS MANUSCRIPT DID YOU GO THROUGH BEFORE IT WAS ACCEPTED? A. OKAY. YOU MEAN BY "ITERATIONS" WITH THE JOURNAL REVIEWERS, OR DO YOU MEAN--- Q. YES, SIR. WITH THE JOURNAL REVIEWER. A. I THINK IT WAS TWO, MAYBE THREE. Q. ALL RIGHT. IN YOUR FIRST ROUND OF COMMENTS, DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THOSE WERE? A. SOME OF THEM. THE CESIUM DATA WAS NOT PRESENTED IN A GRAPHICAL FORMAT, AND SO WE WENT BACK AND PRESENTED SOME OF IT AS GRAPHS. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. WE DIDN'T INCLUDE ANY DATA ON ORGANIC CARBON ACCUMULATION, AND SO WE ADDED THAT TO IT. THOSE ARE ABOUT THE TWO MAIN THINGS. I REALLY CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE. THOSE WERE THE TWO BIG THINGS. Q. DID YOU HAVE THREE REVIEWERS? A. I THINK SO. Q. IS THAT CUSTOMARY THAT THERE WOULD BE THREE? A. SOMETIMES IT'S TWO, SOMETIMES IT'S THREE, OCCASIONALLY IT'S FOUR. Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHO ANY OF YOUR REVIEWERS DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 113 WERE? A. NO. THEY MAKE THAT ANONYMOUS USUALLY. THAT'S SORT OF STANDARD PRACTICE. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU ADDED THE CESIUM DATA GRAPHICALLY AND THE ORGANIC CARBON, AND THEN YOU WENT THROUGH ANOTHER ITERATION. DO YOU RECALL WHY YOU WENT THROUGH THE SECOND ITERATION? A. JUST TO, YOU KNOW, IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF THE MANUSCRIPT. AND, BASICALLY, THAT'S I THINK WHAT THIS SEPTEMBER 9TH LETTER ADDRESSES: SHORTENING THE TITLE; MAKING IT MORE INFORMATIVE; REDUCING THE LENGTH OF THE ABSTRACT; TRYING TO RELATE TO CESIUM INVENTORIES IN THE SOIL TO WHAT THE DEPOSITION RATE FROM THE ATMOSPHERE IS. Q. ALL RIGHT. THERE'S A QUESTION IN NUMBER FOUR REGARDING THE ORIGINALITY OF THE RESEARCH. WHAT WAS THAT ISSUE? A. BASICALLY, I CITED SOME OF THE WORK OF DR. REDDY IN THE MANUSCRIPT AND THEIR CONCERN WAS THAT, WELL, IF THIS WORK HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE, WHY SHOULD WE PUBLISH IT. AND I THINK I ADDRESSED THAT IN THE LETTER AS OUR WORK STARTED EARLIER THAN HIS -- ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THAT MATTERS; I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHO GET IT OUT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 114 FIRST -- AND THE SCOPE OF OUR WORK IN TERMS OF THE GEOGRAPHICAL AREA COVERED WAS MUCH LARGER THAN WHAT DR. REDDY COVERED. Q. OKAY. YOU SEEM TO EXPRESS SOME CONCERN BETWEEN THE LAG OF SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION. DO YOU RECALL WHAT THAT LAG WAS? A. IN TERMS OF THE TIME INTERVAL? Q. SURE. A. I DON'T KNOW. IT SEEMS LIKE FOUR OR FIVE MONTHS. I MEAN, IT -- GENERALLY, I THINK IT MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN FIVE OR SIX MONTHS. THEY GENERALLY TRY TO TURN IT AROUND TO YOU IN A THREE OR FOUR MONTH PERIOD. Q. OKAY. YOU SAY IN YOUR POSTSCRIPT "THAT NET PRIMARY PRODUCTION OF EVERGLADES MACROPHYTES PROBABLY IS SUBSTANTIALLY HIGHER THAN VEGETATION OF NORTHERN PEATLANDS." MR. BURGESS: I'M SORRY, IS THERE A PAGE NUMBER? MS. PONZOLI: IT'S THE POSTSCRIPT. IT'S THE SECOND PAGE OF THE LETTER, I ASSUME. I MEAN, I HAVE A--- MR. BURGESS: OKAY. MS. PONZOLI: ---PAGE THAT SAYS P.S. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 115 IS THAT ACCURATE? WITNESS: YES. MR. BURGESS: (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL -- WAS THIS POSTSCRIPT ATTACHED TO THE LETTER? A. OH, YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THE "NET PRIMARY" -- WHY IS THIS SO, DR. CRAFT? A. WELL, YOU JUST -- YOU HAVE A LONGER GROWING SEASON IN SUBTROPICAL AREAS, SO YOU TEND TO HAVE HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY. AND A LOT OF ECOSYSTEMS IS SHOWN TO HAVE A LATITUDINAL COMPONENT. IT'S HIGHER AS YOU MOVE TOWARDS THE TROPICS. Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY IN THE EVERGLADES IS THE SAME THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES? A. NO. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE COMMUNITY -- YOU KNOW, ON THE TYPE OF PLANT COMMUNITY. Q. CAN YOU JUST GENERALLY TELL ME WHERE YOU THINK IT WOULD BE HIGHER? A. WELL, I WOULD THINK THAT PROBABLY THE EMERGENT MARSHES HAVE A HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY THAN TREE ISLANDS, AND CERTAIN EMERGENT PLANTS SPECIES ARE MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN OTHERS. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 116 Q. CATTAILS BEING MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN SAWGRASS? A. THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT. NOT MY DATA, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE LITERATURE SEEMS TO SUGGEST. Q. DO YOU THINK THAT'S ACCURATE? A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I HAVEN'T, YOU KNOW, MEASURED IT, AT LEAST IN THAT CONTEXT. Q. DO YOU THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT TO UNDERSTAND? A. I THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHETHER THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN PRODUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE TWO SPECIES, YEAH. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DESIGNING ANY STUDIES, OR ARE ANY OF YOUR STUDIES ADDRESSING THAT ISSUE? A. NOT DIRECTLY. Q. HOW ARE THEY ADDRESSING IT INDIRECTLY? A. THE FERTILIZER STUDY IS ADDRESSING THE EFFECTS OF N AND P ADDITIONS ON GROWTH OF EVERGLADES VEGETATION, AND ALTHOUGH IN SOME WAYS THE MAIN FOCUS WAS TO TRY TO DETERMINE IF FERTILIZER ADDITIONS CAUSED THE CHANGE IN THE SPECIES COMPOSITION. Q. SO, IT WASN'T REALLY LOOKING AT NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY REALLY? A. NO -- WELL, INDIRECTLY, IT IS LOOKING AT THAT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 117 BECAUSE WE ARE INTERESTED IN THE FERTILIZER RESPONSE -- THE RESPONSE TO FERTILIZER ADDITIONS, AND ONE OF THOSE MIGHT BE A CHANGE IN PRODUCTIVITY. Q. OKAY. YOU SORT OF IMPLIED THAT YOU MIGHT QUESTION THE LITERATURE ON WHETHER CATTAIL HAD A HIGHER NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY THAN SAWGRASS. IS THERE A REASON? A. NO, I'M NOT QUESTIONING IT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---I JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, SINCE I HAVE NOT DONE ANY WORK DIRECTLY RELATED TO THAT. Q. BUT YOU DO THROUGHOUT YOUR PAPER ACCEPT THE WORK OF OTHERS, AND APPEAR AT LEAST -- AND I BELIEVE IT'S PROBABLY ACCURATE -- THAT YOU CONCUR WITH A LOT OF THAT. DO YOU HAVE REASON TO DOUBT THE NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY OF CATTAIL IS GREATER? A. NO, NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY. Q. OKAY. OKAY. A. AND, IF I RECALL, I THINK STEVE DAVIS DID FIND CATTAIL WAS MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN SAWGRASS IN THOSE ENRICHED AREAS. Q. OKAY. I THINK I'M JUST GOING TO BEGIN WITH THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 118 ABSTRACT, DR. CRAFT, AND WORK MY WAY THROUGH IT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LOT OF CONCEPTS HERE I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND BETTER. YOU SAY THAT THESE VARIOUS PARAMETERS WERE MEASURED IN EVERGLADE SOILS TO CHARACTERIZE THE EFFECTS OF ALTERED HYDROPERIOD AND NUTRIENT REGIMES ON THE NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY OF THE EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEM. AND I THINK A NUMBER OF EITHER THE CHAPTERS OF THE ANNUAL REPORTS OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, OR THIS PAPER, AND EVEN I THINK YOUR CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER SIXTEEN, WHICH IS A DRAFT MANUSCRIPT THAT I UNDERSTAND IT HAS NOT BEEN SUBMITTED FOR PUBLICATION YET, AND LOOKS AT A EUTROPHICATION GRADIENT IN THE NORTHERN EVERGLADES, ARE LOOKING AT THE CONCEPT OF NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY. AND I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHY? WHY ARE YOU LOOKING AT THIS NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY? A. WELL, THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS. ONE IS, WETLANDS, FIRST, ARE GENERALLY SINKS FOR NUTRIENTS. AND THAT'S BECAUSE THEY TEND TO OCCUPY THE LOWEST PART OF THE LANDSCAPE. THEY'RE IN THE DEPTH -- THEY'RE IN THE AREAS THAT TEND TO RECEIVE STUFF. ONE THING THAT WE ARE INTERESTED IN IS CARBON ACCUMULATION. WETLANDS ARE POTENTIALLY DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 119 IMPORTANT SINKS IN THE GLOBAL CARBON CYCLE, AND PERHAPS YOU MAY SEE CHANGES IN CARBON STORAGE IN RESPONSE TO NUTRIENT AND HYDROPERIOD ALTERATIONS WHICH COULD HAVE A BIG IMPACT ON GLOBAL WARMING AND THAT SORT OF THING. THE OTHER POTENTIAL THING, WHICH IS PROBABLY MORE OBVIOUS, IS THIS PROBLEM OF PHOSPHORUS AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT IN THE EVERGLADES. Q. OKAY. IS -- I -- AND, NOW, I'M NOT TRYING TO BE STUPID HERE, BUT I THINK I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS -- WITH UNDERSTANDING WHY THE FOCUS IS ON STORAGE CAPACITY. A. BECAUSE -- OKAY. NUTRIENT STORAGE IS AN IMPORTANT ECOSYSTEM PROCESS. AND ANY KIND OF CHANGE IN NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION RATES COULD POTENTIALLY CHANGE THE ECOSYSTEM. SO, I MEAN, THIS IS JUST SORT OF A BASIC PROCESS THAT IS SUBJECT TO BEING CHANGED FROM ALTERATION BY HUMANS, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO DETERMINE IF THIS IS A -- YOU KNOW, HOW IT CHANGES -- IF IT DOES CHANGE -- AND IF SO, HOW. Q. OKAY. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH PHOSPHORUS IN THE EVERGLADES? A. IT SEEMS TO BE -- IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY A LOT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 120 OF PEOPLE THAT PHOSPHORUS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR CHANGES IN EVERYTHING FROM THE PLANT COMMUNITIES, TO THE PERIPHYTON COMMUNITY, TO -- I MEAN, EVERYTHING FROM PRODUCTIVITY TO CHANGES IN SPECIES COMPOSITION; POTENTIAL CHANGES IN THE FOOD WEB; AND WHAT WE WERE INTERESTED IN HERE IS LOOKING AT HOW ENRICHMENT AFFECTS -- WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT CHANGES IN COMMUNITIES AND TROPHIC GROUPS, THAT'S SORT OF AT THE COMMUNITY LEVEL, AT THE ORGANISM LEVEL. WE WERE INTERESTED IN SOME OF THESE HIGHER ORDER PROCESSES, THESE ECOSYSTEM PROCESSES, LIKE HOW PEAT BUILDS UP AND HOW NUTRIENTS ARE SEQUESTERED. Q. DO YOU -- DOES YOUR RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES SUPPORT THE CONCEPT THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN ALTERED BY THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT? A. I THINK THAT THE FERTILIZER STUDY, THE FIRST YEAR DATA DOES SUGGEST THAT THERE ARE SOME CHANGES THAT OCCUR IN RESPONSE TO FERTILIZER ADDITIONS. Q. DO YOU FIND THEM IN THE PERIPHYTON? A. WELL, DR. VYMAZAL DID THAT WORK, AND I THINK HE DID NOTE SOME CHANGES, BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THAT TO REALLY -- I'M NOT A PERIPHYTON PERSON, SO I DON'T REALLY FEEL LIKE I'M DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 121 QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT THOSE CHANGES. Q. YOU ARE TAKING OVER THE PERIPHYTON WORK AT THE DOSING STUDY, ARE YOU NOT? A. NO. Q. THAT'S DR. RADER, I'M SORRY. EXCUSE ME--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---IT'S DR. RADER WHO'S DOING THAT. A. YEAH. Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT CHANGES IN THE COMMUNITIES OF MACROPHYTES? A. I FEEL LIKE I KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT. THAT'S WHAT I'M LOOKING AT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU FOUND CHANGES IN THE MACROPHYTE COMMUNITIES AS A RESULT OF NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT? A. SOME CHANGES, YES. Q. WHAT ARE THEY? A. WE SEE AN INCREASE IN PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE BY MOST OF THE MACROPHYTES THAT WE LOOKED AT. Q. AND? A. AND WE SAW A DECREASE IN -- A DECLINE IN THE STANDING CROP BIOMASS OF THIS UTRICULARIA- PERIPHYTON COMPLEX. Q. AND? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 122 A. THOSE WERE THE TWO THINGS THAT WE HAVE SEEN THUS FAR. Q. AND YOU COULD MAKE NO OTHER CONCLUSIONS REGARDING THE COMMUNITY CHANGES RELATED TO, LET'S SAY, THE CATTAIL OR THE DENSE MACROPHYTE ENCROACHMENT? A. AFTER ONE YEAR, WE DIDN'T SEE THAT YET, YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T SEE IT, SO. Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU HAVE BEEN DOING RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES FOR THREE YEARS? A. THREE AND A HALF. Q. THREE AND A HALF YEARS? A. YES. Q. SO, BASED ON THREE AND A HALF YEARS WORK IN THE EVERGLADES, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD MAKE SOME OF THOSE CONCLUSIONS REGARDING CHANGES IN THE MACROPHYTE COMMUNITIES? A. WELL, WITH REFERENCE TO THE TWO THINGS I JUST MENTIONED, I THINK, YEAH, THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT THERE IS AN INCREASE IN PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE BY MACROPHYTES, AND THERE IS A DECREASE IN THIS STANDING CROP BIOMASS OF THE UTRICULARIA-PERIPHYTON. Q. AND AFTER THREE AND A HALF YEARS OF RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES, THAT'S THE SUM TOTAL OF THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 123 MACROPHYTE CHANGES THAT YOU--- A. AT THIS POINT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---BECAUSE THERE IS A TIME LAG FROM WHEN YOU COLLECT THE DATA TO WHEN YOU FINALLY GET IT ANALYZED AND START LOOKING AT IT STATISTICALLY. Q. HAVE YOU COLLECTED DATA FROM WHICH YOU COULD POTENTIALLY DRAW--- A. YES--- Q. ---CONCLUSIONS? A. ---WELL, NO. I HAVE COLLECTED DATA, BUT I DON'T -- I'M NOT ABLE TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS YET BECAUSE WE ARE STILL IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO ANALYZE THE DATA, LOOK AT THE NUMBERS. Q. WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU WILL HAVE THAT ANALYSIS DONE? A. IT WILL BE IN -- TWO YEARS OF FERTILIZER DATA WILL BE IN NEXT YEAR'S ANNUAL REPORT. Q. SO, BY THE END OF THIS SUMMER, NEXT FALL, YOU WOULD HAVE TWO YEARS--- A. UH-HUH. I WOULD HAVE TWO YEARS INTERPRETED AND WRITTEN UP. Q. WHEN WOULD YOU HAVE IT INTERPRETED, BUT NOT WRITTEN UP? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 124 A. PROBABLY ABOUT IN MAY OR JUNE. Q. OKAY. A. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS KIND OF AN ITERATIVE ONGOING THING. YOU CAN GO OUT IN ONE WEEK AND COLLECT ENOUGH DATA TO SPEND A YEAR IN THE LAB TRYING TO ANALYZE. Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE THAT MUCH DATA COLLECTED? A. I WENT OUT IN A WEEK THIS SUMMER AND I'VE GOT ABOUT A YEAR'S WORTH OF DATA TO TRY TO PUT TOGETHER. Q. OKAY. AND ARE YOU TRYING TO PUT THEM TOGETHER TO DO THAT TYPE OF ANALYSIS OF MACROPHYTE COMMUNITY CHANGES? A. SURE. Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF THE CHANGES THAT YOU HAVE SEEN? A. MAYBE YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION; I DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND IT. Q. WELL, HAVE YOU SEEN ECOLOGICAL CHANGES DUE TO NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT? A. IN THESE FERTILIZER PLOTS, YES. Q. ONLY IN THE FERTILIZER PLOTS? A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE IN THE FIELD IF YOU CAN DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 125 RELATE -- YOU HAVE TO START AT TIME ZERO AND LOOK AND SEE HOW THINGS CHANGE. I CAN GO OUT THERE TODAY AND SAY, YEAH, THERE'S CATTAIL EVERYWHERE. BUT SINCE I WASN'T THERE TEN YEARS AGO, I DON'T KNOW -- YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW THINGS CHANGE OVER TIME AND THAT'S WHY I THINK THE FERTILIZER STUDY WILL BE USEFUL SINCE WE STARTED AT TIME ZERO AND CAN FOLLOW THIS OVER A TWO, THREE, FOUR, OR FIVE YEAR PERIOD. Q. HAVE YOU MADE ANY EFFORT TO RELATE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT TO THE CATTAIL AREA? A. MAYBE REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q. WELL, YOU'VE DONE STUDIES ALONG A NUTRIENT GRADIENT, IS THAT RIGHT--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---IN 2B? A. RIGHT. Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE TAKEN PHOSPHORUS LEVELS ALONG THAT NUTRIENT GRADIENT. IS THAT RIGHT? A. CORRECT. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY RELATIONSHIP OF THE PHOSPHORUS LEVELS YOU FOUND IN THE PORE WATER AND THE SURFACE WATER WITH THE PLANT COMMUNITIES THAT YOU SAW ALONG THE NUTRIENT GRADIENT? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 126 A. NO. I DON'T THINK I'VE DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT. Q. OKAY. WHY NOT? A. I JUST DON'T -- I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED INTO THAT SORT OF THING. Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE A VALID FORM OF ANALYSIS? A. WELL, I'M NOT QUITE SURE I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, SO MAYBE LET'S BACK UP AND--- Q. OKAY. WELL--- A. ---MAKE IT CLEARER TO ME. Q. SURE. SURE. AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND I'M A LAYMAN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THIS FROM A LAYMAN'S PERSPECTIVE. YOU HAVE ENRICHED AREAS THAT YOU TALK ABOUT ALONG THE NUTRIENT AND GRADIENT MOVING INTO WHAT YOU CALL UNENRICHED AREAS--- A. OKAY. Q. ---IS THAT RIGHT? A. YES. Q. AND YOU HAVE TAKEN MEASUREMENTS ALL ALONG THAT GRADIENT. IS THAT TRUE? A. YES. Q. AND HAVE YOU DONE VEGETATIVE COUNTS ALONG THAT GRADIENT? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 127 A. YES. Q. HAVE YOU TRIED TO RELATE TO SEE IF THERE IS SOME RELATIONSHIP THAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU IN WHAT YOU'RE SEEING? A. YOU MEAN IN TERMS OF, AS YOU WOULD SAY, TRY TO RELATE PORE WATER CONCENTRATIONS TO WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE MACROPHYTES? Q. THAT'S RIGHT. A. WE HAVEN'T DONE THAT. AND MY WORK IS RELATED TO THE MACROPHYTES. DR. QUALLS HAS DONE THE PORE WATER WORK. AND AT THIS POINT WE JUST HAVEN'T PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER TO TRY TO, YOU KNOW, COMBINE THE DATA AND LOOK AT THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. Q. IS THERE ANY REASON WHY? A. WE JUST HAVEN'T HAD THE TIME. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT -- THERE HAS BEEN TALK OF TRYING TO SORT OF SYNTHESIZE AND BRING EVERYTHING TOGETHER, BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND EACH OF US, WE WORK SEMI-INDEPENDENTLY, IN TERMS OF EACH OF US TAKES THE LEAD IN A CERTAIN FACET OF THE STUDY. AND, SO, MY FOCUS IS ON MACROPHYTES AND ON PEAT BUILDUP. DR. QUALLS HAS FOCUSED MORE ON THE WATER QUALITY WORK, AND THE PORE WATERS, AND THOSE KIND DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 128 OF THINGS. Q. SO, THE ONLY SYNTHESIZER, THEN, IS DR. RICHARDSON, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. WELL, I'D SAY HE CERTAINLY DOES MORE SYNTHESIZING THAN WE DO, IN TERMS OF BRINGING ALL THE PIECES TOGETHER, YES. Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU EVER SIT AROUND, ALL OF YOU, AND TALK ABOUT SYNTHESIZING YOUR VARIOUS STUDIES? A. WE -- YEAH, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT. THERE IS THE TIME CONSTRAINT PROBLEM THAT SEEMS TO BE THE BIGGEST THING. Q. AND HAVE YOU EVER HAD DISCUSSIONS REGARDING SYNTHESIZING DR. QUALLS' WORK WITH YOUR WORK, WITH DR. RADER'S WORK, WITH DR. VYMAZAL'S WORK? A. YEAH, WE'VE JUST MENTIONED THAT WE NEED TO TRY TO DO THAT. Q. BUT YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT? A. NO, NOT REALLY. Q. OKAY. IS THIS CONCEPT OF NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY, IS THIS A MANAGEMENT CONCEPT? A. IT HAS MANAGEMENT APPLICATIONS, YES. Q. OKAY. HOW SO? A. WELL, PEOPLE USE WETLANDS -- OR ARE USING THEM IN A LOT OF PLACES, TO TRY AND IMPROVE WATER QUALITY. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 129 AND INFORMATION LIKE THIS CAN BE USED, PERHAPS, TO TRY TO DETERMINE HOW THESE SYSTEMS MIGHT WORK, TO PROVIDE BACKGROUND INFORMATION TO DETERMINE, YOU KNOW, HOW THESE SYSTEMS MIGHT WORK IN TERMS OF PEAT BUILDUP, OR SOIL ADSORPTION, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. WELL, IN LOOKING AT YOUR WORK IN THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS, AND IN THE EVERGLADES, ARE YOU LOOKING AT MANAGING THESE AREAS TOWARD THE GOAL OF IMPROVING WATER QUALITY FOR THE EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK, FOR EXAMPLE? A. THAT WASN'T REALLY A GOAL IN THE PAPER, BUT IT COULD BE POTENTIALLY USED FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. WERE YOU LOOKING AT EXAMINING THESE WETLAND SYSTEMS TOWARD IMPROVING WATER QUALITY FOR THE SYSTEMS THEMSELVES? A. FOR MAYBE THE CONSERVATION AREAS. Q. YOU WERE LOOKING AT WHAT THE NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY WAS SO THAT YOU COULD IMPROVE THE WATER QUALITY FOR THE WATER CONSERVATION AREA THEMSELVES? A. IT COULD BE USED FOR THAT. Q. OKAY. HOW? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 130 A. BY DETERMINING HOW THESE THINGS RESPOND TO NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT. IF YOU DO SEE AN INCREASE IN NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO RELATE THINGS LIKE LOADING TO STORAGE AND THAT SORT OF THING. Q. SO, IF YOU REDUCE LOADING TO "X" POINT, THEN THE STORAGE WOULD MAINTAIN A CERTAIN EQUILIBRIUM, IS THAT AN ACCURATE STATEMENT? NO? A. I DON'T THINK SO, BUT I'M NOT QUITE SURE--- Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HOW WOULD YOU -- HOW WOULD YOU USE THE INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE GATHERING TO HELP THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS THEMSELVES IN WATER QUALITY? MR. BURGESS: THIS IS -- YOU'RE ASKING A HYPOTHETICAL? Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, DR. RADER? A. DR. CRAFT. Q. DR. CRAFT, I APOLOGIZE. A. THAT'S OKAY. WITNESS: REPEAT THE QUESTION ONE MORE TIME. MR. PONZOLI: OKAY. READ IT BACK PLEASE. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 131 (THEREUPON, THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWER APPEARING ON PAGE 130, LINES 7-14, WERE REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) A. OKAY. I THINK YOU COULD USE IT -- WELL, I'M AWARE, AS LONG -- AS MOST EVERYBODY ELSE IN SOUTH FLORIDA, THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT IS THINKING ABOUT, OR TRYING TO DESIGN THESE CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS TO FILTER PHOSPHORUS. AND I THINK OUR WORK HAS DIRECT APPLICATIONS IN HELPING DESIGN THOSE--- Q. OKAY. IS--- A. ---IN TERMS OF SUPPLYING INFORMATION ON THAT. Q. FINE. THEN, IS THAT, IN FACT, THE GOAL OF A LOT OF THIS WORK IS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DESIGN CLEANUP AREAS FOR THE WATER? A. NO, IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT THE PRIMARY GOAL. THE PRIMARY GOAL IS TO UNDERSTAND HOW, INITIALLY, THE ECOSYSTEM PROCESSES, SUCH AS, PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION ARE AFFECTED BY THE ENRICHMENT PROCESS. AND THEN, OF COURSE, THIS HAS A, YOU KNOW, AN APPLICATION TO DESIGNING THESE TYPE OF AREAS. Q. DO YOU THINK THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A CAN BE USED AS A MODEL FOR HOW A MARSH CAN REMOVE AND DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 132 STORE PHOSPHORUS? A. I THINK IF YOU'RE GOING TO CONSTRUCT A MARSH TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS BY PEAT ACCUMULATION, IT CAN BE USED, IF PEAT ACCRETION IS THE PRIMARY MECHANISM BY WHICH PHOSPHORUS IS STORED. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT THERE ARE OTHER PARAMETERS THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED? A. OH, CERTAINLY. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE THEY? A. I THINK -- LET'S SAY YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO UTILIZE PEAT ACCRETION AS YOUR MECHANISM; YOU KNOW, THERE'S CHEMICAL PROCESSES, SUCH AS, SORPTION, PRECIPITATION WITH IRON AND ALUMINUM AND CALCIUM THAT YOU COULD USE OR COULD UNDERSTAND TO HELP IN TERMS OF DESIGNING THESE AREAS. IT SORT OF DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU WANT TO GO WITH A PEAT BASED WETLAND FOR PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL OR WHETHER YOU WANT TO USE SOME KIND OF MINERAL SOIL WETLAND, AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE OTHER PROCESSES WHICH WOULD BE EVEN IMPORTANT IN DETERMINING HOW MUCH PHOSPHORUS CAN BE REMOVED. Q. DR. CRAFT, YOU JUST LOST ME. HOW WOULD WE BUILD MINERAL SOIL WETLANDS IN FLORIDA? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 133 A. WELL, YOU HAVE TO START WITH MINERAL SOIL. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT--- Q. THAT'S WHERE I'M HAVING MY PROBLEM. A. WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU GET UP INTO CENTRAL FLORIDA, OR YOU GO RIGHT NORTH -- AT LEAST IF I LOOK AT SOIL MAPS OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, YOU GET INTO THESE SANDY-TYPE SOILS, YOU KNOW, AND YOU COULD BUILD A WETLAND THERE. I THINK -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT -- NOT ALL WETLANDS ARE PEAT BASED, YOU KNOW. MANY OF THE BIG ONES ARE, BUT--- Q. YOU'RE LOSING ME. WOULD WE SEND THE WATER NORTH, CLEAN IT UP, AND THEN SOMEHOW BRING IT SOUTH BY THE--- A. WELL, NO. ALL I'M SAYING IS, IS I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE DESIGN OF THESE THINGS TO DETERMINE WHAT -- EXACTLY HOW THE PHOSPHORUS IS GOING TO BE REMOVED. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE GOING TO RELY ON PEAT BUILDUP, OR WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO RELY ON PRECIPITATION WITH CALCIUM AND IRON OR ALUMINUM. SO, I'M SORT OF LIMITED BY -- THEY MAY RELY ON A COMBINATION OF BOTH. I DON'T KNOW. Q. YOU HAVE FOUND, AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR PAPER, THAT THERE ARE CHANGES IN PEAT ACCRETION DUE TO DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 134 PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT, RIGHT? A. I THINK SO, YES. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. A. THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT. Q. OKAY. AND THEN, JUST BASICALLY, WHAT ARE THESE CHANGES? A. ENRICHMENT SEEMS TO ENHANCE THE RATE OF PEAT BUILDUP. Q. SEPARATELY AND APART FROM HYDROPERIOD? A. WELL, WE CAN'T -- I REALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE THE TWO. THE PROBLEM WITH CONSERVATION AREA 2A IS THERE'S A LOT OF PHOSPHORUS COMING IN, AND THERE'S A LOT OF NITROGEN, TOO, BUT THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF WATER THAT CARRIES ALL THAT IN. AND MY FEELING IS, IS YOU'D REALLY NEED TO DO SOME KIND OF CONTROLLED STUDIES WHERE YOU COULD SEPARATE THOSE TWO THINGS OUT TO DETERMINE THE RELATIVE ROLE OF NUTRIENTS VERSUS HYDROPERIOD. Q. UNLESS I'VE MISSED SOMETHING, I DON'T THINK THAT RESEARCH IS BEING DONE, IS IT? A. YEAH, I'M NOT AWARE OF IT. Q. OKAY. SO, NO ONE FROM DUKE WETLAND CENTER, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS DOING THAT SEPARATING OUT? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 135 A. NO. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU TALK HERE ABOUT PEAT ACCRETION IS RELATED TO HYDROPERIOD AND TO PHOSPHORUS LOADING. AND YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT YOU DON'T THINK THEY CAN BE SEPARATED OUT AT THIS POINT, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THE HYDROPERIOD -- GOOD ENOUGH HYPROPERIOD DATA TO SEPARATE IT OUT. YOU KNOW, I DON'T -- I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A FAIR STATEMENT. IT'S -- I DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT; I DON'T THINK I COULD SEPARATE IT OUT. Q. OKAY. WHAT KIND OF HYDROPERIOD DATA WOULD YOU NEED IN ORDER TO SEPARATE IT OUT, IN YOUR OPINION? A. IF YOU HAD SOMETHING LIKE DAILY OR WEEKLY WATER LEVEL DATA AT THE SITES WHERE YOU TOOK YOUR SAMPLES. AND THEN YOU ALSO COLLECTED SAMPLES FROM AREAS THAT YOU KNEW WERE RECEIVING NUTRIENT ENRICHMENTS, SO YOU WOULD HAVE GOOD HYDROPERIOD DATA THERE, BUT YOU WOULD ALSO SAMPLE SITES THAT WOULD HAVE A LONG HYDROPERIOD BUT WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE FLOW -- TO THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT PROCESS. Q. I THINK YOU'RE SUGGESTING A RATHER MASSIVE SCALE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 136 PROJECT, ARE YOU NOT? A. NOT NECESSARILY. I ALMOST THINK -- IT WOULD BE HARD TO DO. THE --- I THINK THE SHORTAGE OF DATA IS GOOD WATER LEVEL DATA FOR SITES WHERE SOILS ARE COLLECTED AND WHERE PEAT ACCUMU -- YOU KNOW, WHERE WE MEASURE PEAT ACCUMULATION. Q. SO, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS AT THE SITES -- LET'S SAY, THE ONE, TWO THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX -- THE SEVEN SITES THAT YOU BASED THIS MANUSCRIPT ON, CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO HAVE HYDROPERIOD DATA EACH OF THOSE SITES? A. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GREAT. Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU? A. BECAUSE IT WOULD INVOLVE GOING OUT AND SETTING UP A TIDE -- WELL, NOT A TIDE GAUGE, BUT A WATER LEVEL RECORDER AT EACH OF THE SITES, AND TRYING TO CONTINUOUSLY MEASURE IT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---OR HAVE SOMEBODY GO OUT THERE ONCE A WEEK FOR THE NEXT TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THE PEAT ACCRETION IS A TWENTY-FIVE YEAR PERIOD, AND WHAT YOU REALLY NEED IS TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF WATER LEVEL DATA AT EACH OF THOSE SITES. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 137 Q. OKAY. AND HOW LONG A PERIOD DO YOU THINK IT WOULD TAKE TO HAVE THE KIND OF DATA THAT YOU THINK WOULD BE NECESSARY TO SEPARATE THE HYDROPERIOD FROM THE NUTRIENT? WOULD YOU NEED TWENTY-FIVE YEARS? A. I WOULD FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF DATA. Q. OKAY. CAN YOU TELL ME -- IS THAT THE REASON WHY NOBODY IS SEPARATING OUT HYDROPERIOD FROM THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT--- A. I THINK--- Q. ---BECAUSE YOU NEED A TWENTY-FIVE YEAR STUDY? A. ---I THINK THE -- YEAH, THE DATA JUST DOES NOT EXIST, OR THERE'S NOT A LOT OF GOOD DATA. TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AGO, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE WERE THINKING ABOUT THESE SORTS OF THINGS AND SO--- Q. OKAY. AND WHAT KIND OF HYDROPERIOD DATA DID YOU HAVE FOR THIS PARTICULAR CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE? A. WELL, AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE FIGURE HERE, THAT IS DATA THAT WAS TAKEN FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT FROM THE SWIM PLAN. IT'S A FIGURE -- WHY? WE DESIGNED THE FIGURE. BUT THE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 138 WATER LEVEL DATA THERE SHOWING THE SHADING IS TAKEN FROM THEM, AND I THINK IT'S BASED ON THEIR HYDROLOGY MODEL. AND I BELIEVE EVEN IN THE TEXT, THEY SAY THESE ARE AREAS THAT THEY BELIEVE ARE WETTER THAN THEY HISTORICALLY WERE, AND THESE OTHER AREAS THEY BELIEVE ARE DRYER THAN THEY HISTORICALLY WERE. THAT'S THE BEST DATA I COULD FIND. AND IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY GOOD, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S ADEQUATE TO REALLY QUANTITATIVELY ADDRESS THE DIFFERENCE. Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FIGURE 1 TO YOUR CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, AND IT SAYS AN OVERDRAINED AREA, AND AN AREA OF EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD, YOU'RE SAYING THAT THIS CAME FROM THE '92 SWIM PLAN? A. WELL, I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK. IF IT -- WHETHER IT COMES FROM '92, OR -- THIS IS ACTUALLY FROM '90, BUT IT MAY ALSO BE IN THE '92 SWIM PLAN. Q. SURE. OKAY. FROM THE '90 SWIM PLAN. AND ESSENTIALLY THEY DEFINE OVERDRAINED -- THESE AREAS AS BEING OVERDRAINED AS HAVING LESS WATER THAN THEY BELIEVE THEY HISTORICALLY HAD, AND THE AREAS OF EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD ARE AREAS THAT HAVE MORE WATER THAN HISTORICALLY? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 139 A. YES. Q. OKAY. BUT THERE'S NO QUANTIFICATION BEYOND--- A. NO. Q. ---THAT? A. NO. HUH-UH (NO). Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU BASE YOUR CONCLUSIONS UPON WAS THAT, THAT DELINEATION? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. OKAY. I GUESS THE OBVIOUS QUESTION THAT A LOT OF US ON THIS SIDE OF THE TABLE ARE THINKING IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU DO IN THE SHORT TERM TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM OF PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION VERSUS HYDROPERIOD? A. I THINK -- AND THIS WOULD COST SOME MONEY ALSO -- WOULD TO BE TRY TO SET UP SOME MESOCOSMS, OR SOME KIND OF MAYBE THREE METER BY THREE METER CONCRETE CONTAINERS AND GROW PLANTS UNDER, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU CAN ACTUALLY REGULATE THE FLOODING, AND YOU CAN ALSO REGULATE THE AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO ADD TO THE SYSTEM; AND PLANT IT WITH EMERGENT VEGETATION; AND TRY TO FOLLOW PEAT BUILDUP OVER A THREE, OR FIVE, OR TEN YEAR PERIOD. YOU KNOW, A YEAR OF DATA WOULD NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH. I WOULD THINK THREE WOULD BE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 140 MINIMUM, AND I'M NOT EVEN SURE IF THAT WOULD ENOUGH. BUT YOU COULD PUT A -- YOU KNOW, IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT LIKE THAT, YOU COULD PUT A MARK ON THE CONCRETE WALL AS TO WHERE THE SOIL SURFACE IS AT TIME ZERO, AND MAYBE, YOU KNOW, OVER THREE GROWING SEASONS TRY TO DETERMINE SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES. Q. OKAY. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A GREENHOUSE EXPERIMENT THAT WOULD -- THE MESOCOSM WOULD SIMULATE WHAT GOES ON IN THE--- A. OR AN OUTDOOR. YOU COULD DO IT OUTSIDE DOWN THERE EVEN, I THINK. Q. OH, OKAY. ALL RIGHT. A MESOCOSM OUTDOORS. AND I GUESS MY CONCERN IS HOW DO YOU SIMULATE ALL THE EVERGLADES IN A THREE BY THREE METER AREA. A. WELL, YOU DO THE BEST YOU CAN. I MEAN, YOU GIVE UP SOME OF THE REALISM WITH SOMETHING THAT SMALL, BUT YOU GET A LOT GREATER CONTROL OVER THE HYDROPERIOD AND THE NUTRIENT LOADING. Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF HYDROPERIOD DATA FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT HAS? A. SOME. I THINK THEY HAVE A 217 GAUGE. I'M NOT SURE IF THAT'S THE CORRECT NUMBER, BUT I KNOW THEY DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 141 HAVE A PERMANENT -- ONE PERMANENT LOCATION OUT THERE, YEAH. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY EFFORT TO CORRELATE THAT WATER LEVEL DATA WITH YOUR NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT DATA? A. WE'VE JUST -- I'VE JUST LOOKED AT IT, BUT I HAVEN'T REALLY TRIED. I JUST FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, ONE POINT LOCATED SIX OR EIGHT MILES AWAY FROM MY SAMPLING POINTS, I JUST -- YOU JUST CAN'T -- I DON'T THINK YOU CAN GET A GOOD RELIABLE ESTIMATE; I THINK THERE'S PROBLEMS THERE. Q. OKAY. A. THAT'S GOOD DATA FOR THAT LOCATION, AND I THINK IT'S GOOD DATA FOR THE TWENTY-FIVE YEAR PERIOD FOR THAT LOCATION. BUT IF YOU HAD MEASURED PEAT ACCRETION THERE, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO RELATE SOMETHING TO IT. Q. ALL RIGHT. I -- IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A DRIES FROM NORTH TO SOUTH? IF IT DRIES OUT, HOW DOES IT DRY? OR WHEN IT DRIES -- DURING DROUGHT PERIODS, HOW DOES IT DRY? A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. Q. OKAY. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. CAN YOU -- AND I GUESS DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 142 THIS IS SORT OF A GENERIC TYPE QUESTION, BUT IT'S SORT OF CENTRAL TO UNDERSTANDING A LOT OF THE WORK. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT AN ENRICHED AREA VERSUS AN UNENRICHED AREA, CAN YOU QUANTIFY THAT FOR ME, DR. CRAFT? A. I CAN QUANTIFY IN TERMS OF WHEN I SPEAK OF ENRICHED, IT'S AN AREA THAT RECEIVES N AND P ENRICHED WATER. Q. OKAY. IT'S ENRICHED OVER WHAT? WHAT'S YOUR BASELINE? A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK THROUGH THE PAPER AS TO WHAT THE BASELINE WOULD BE. AREAS -- BY UNENRICHED AREAS, THAT DO NOT RECEIVE N AND P ENRICHED AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE. I THINK THE CENTRAL PART OF CONSERVATION AREA 3A WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, AN AREA THAT HASN'T RECEIVED ENRICHMENT. Q. OKAY. BUT HOW DO WE KNOW AS -- LET'S SAY WE'RE JUST STOMPING THROUGH 2A -- YOU KNOW, I'M JUST A LITTLE FIELD RESEARCHER STOMPING THROUGH THE MARSH, AND I'M NOT LOOKING AT THE MACROPHYTES OR THE PERIPHYTON TO TRY AND DECIDE IF I'M IN AN ENRICHED AREA OR NOT, I'M JUST MOVING THROUGH TESTING SOIL AND WATER. WHERE DO I DECIDE THAT I DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 143 HAVE COME TO AN UNENRICHED SITE? WHAT WILL I FIND AT THAT UNENRICHED SITE NUMERICALLY? A. WELL, YOU WOULD FIND -- IF YOU'RE TROMPING ALONG AND TAKING SAMPLES PERIODICALLY, YOU'LL REACH A POINT WHERE -- LET'S SAY YOU'RE MEASURING SURFACE -- PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN THE SURFACE SOIL--- Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. ---IT LEVELS OFF, OR, YOU KNOW, IT DECLINES AS YOU MOVE AWAY FROM THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND AT SOME POINT IT KIND OF LEVELS OFF. Q. OH, SO, WHEN I REACH A LEVELING OFF POINT, YOU BELIEVE THAT WOULD BE UNENRICHED? A. WELL, BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP FOLLOWING YOUR LINE AND MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T COME BACK UP AGAIN, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE--- Q. OKAY. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT VIRTUALLY ALL OF 2A WOULD BE ENRICHED? A. IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT I DON'T THINK SO. Q. WHY? A. JUST FROM THE DATA THAT WE -- THAT I'VE COLLECTED, I REACH A POINT WHERE WE SEEM TO REACH THESE BACKGROUND PHOSPHORUS LEVELS IN THE SOIL, AND THEY'RE COMPARABLE TO WHAT WE SEE IN CONSERVATION DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 144 AREA 3A. Q. OKAY. SO, YOU'RE JUDGING THE BACKGROUND IN 2A BY WHAT YOU FIND IN 3A? A. NOT -- NO, NOT NECESSARILY, BUT I THINK THAT IS ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT CAN BE USED. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE THOSE CONCENTRATION RANGES? A. WE SEE -- AT LEAST FOR TOTAL SOIL PHOSPHORUS, IT SEEMS -- BACKGROUND SEEMS TO BE AROUND LESS THAN SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, OR FIVE TO SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM. AND THIS IS JUST BASED ON TOTAL SOIL PHOSPHORUS, NOW. Q. YOU'RE SAYING SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS? A. FIVE TO SIX HUNDRED. Q. FIVE TO SIX HUNDRED? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. AND IS THAT THE SAME IN 3A? A. THAT SEEMS TO BE SIMILAR. THESE ARE IN THE SURFACE SOILS, NOW. Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT PORE? A. I HAVEN'T DONE ANY OF THAT KIND OF WORK, SO. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU BEEN ANYWHERE, OTHER THAN 3A, WHERE YOU WOULD JUDGE A BACKGROUND AREA? A. 2B. BUT THE SOILS ARE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT THERE, DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 145 AND, SO, IT'S A LITTLE BIT HARDER TO COMPARE THEM. AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE MORE MINERAL MATERIAL IN THEM. Q. ARE THEY MORE MARLY PEAT IN 2B? A. THERE IS MORE MARL. THERE'S STILL PEAT, BUT THEY ARE SHALLOWER -- THE PEATS ARE SHALLOWER THERE, AND THERE'S A LITTLE BIT -- THERE SEEMS TO BE MORE MINERAL MATERIAL. Q. DOES THAT AFFECT THE PHOSPHORUS LEVELS? A. IT CAN, YEAH. Q. DO YOU THINK IT DOES? A. YEAH, I THINK THE MINERAL CONTENT DOES. IT IS ONE DETERMINATE OF PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION -- CAN BE A DETERMINATE. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU BEEN ANYWHERE ELSE THAT YOU COULD JUDGE A BACKGROUND LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS? A. NO. Q. OKAY. WILL YOU BE LOOKING AT THE DATA THAT'S COLLECTED IN THE PARK AND THE REFUGE AND COMPARING IT? A. IF I EVER GET TO GO INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE TO TAKE SAMPLES, I'M SURE I WOULD, BUT--- Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE THAT PEOPLE WILL BE GOING INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 146 A. I AM, NOW. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU HELPED DESIGN THOSE STUDIES IN THE PARK AND THE REFUGE? A. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IT, AND IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY FALL FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS, WE TALK ABOUT IT AND THEN NOTHING EVER HAPPENS, SO--- Q. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT EVEN AS WE SPEAK, DR. CRAFT, THERE ARE PEOPLE MARCHING INTO THE REFUGE PULLING SAMPLES. A. IS THIS TRUE? Q. YES. A. WELL, GOOD. Q. NOW--- A. OF COURSE, I WOULD FEEL BETTER, IF I'M GOING TO BE DOING THE ANALYSIS, THAT I'M INVOLVED TO SOME EXTENT IN THAT. BUT WE'LL SEE. Q. OH, SO, YOU DO NOT KNOW IF YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THESE COLLECTIONS? A. WELL, IF THEY'RE COLLECTING NOW, I DON'T THINK YOU-ALL ARE GOING TO ALLOW ME TO PARTICIPATE, SO. I JUST FEEL LIKE IF I AM INVOLVED IN THE ANALYSIS, I LIKE TO BE INVOLVED IN THE SAMPLE COLLECTION TO MAKE SURE THAT THINGS ARE DONE UP TO MY EXPECTATIONS. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 147 Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF WHO'S DOING THE SAMPLE COLLECTIONS? A. NO. THIS IS NEWS TO ME, SO--- Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE ASKED TO ANALYZE THOSE SAMPLE COLLECTIONS? A. NOT AT THIS POINT. Q. OKAY. A. I MEAN, THIS IS -- I WILL SAY, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS OFF AND ON FOR TWO YEARS AND NOTHING EVER HAPPENS, SO. Q. I AM WELL AWARE OF THE HISTORY. I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU WHO THE "WE" IS? A. ME AND DR. RICHARDSON--- Q. OKAY. A. ---AND I THINK DR. QUALLS. YOU KNOW, ALL THREE OF US HAS TALKED ABOUT IT AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER, BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE AN INTEREST--- Q. OKAY. A. ---CAUSE WE HAVE, LIKE, PIECES OF THE EVERGLADES, BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE WHOLE -- THE WHOLE FRUITCAKE, SO TO SPEAK. Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DESIGNED THE COLLECTION OF THE FRUITCAKE? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 148 A. NO, I HAVEN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN DESIGN -- I MEAN, WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ON A BLACKBOARD LIKE OF WHERE WE THINK WE WOULD LIKE TO SAMPLE, AND HOW MANY SAMPLES WE WOULD LIKE TO TAKE, BUT WE NEVER REALLY FORMULATED A GAME PLAN. Q. OKAY. WHAT ASPECTS OF COLLECTION ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT IN CORE SAMPLING? MR. BURGESS: IN -- I'M SORRY, IS THIS IN GENERAL OR WITH RESPECT TO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE? MS. PONZOLI: THIS IS -- HE SAID HE WOULD LIKE TO BE THERE; IF HE WERE GOING TO ANALYZE IT, HE WOULD LIKE TO COLLECT IT. Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WASN'T THAT RIGHT? A. RIGHT. MR. BURGESS: SO, THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION, IF HE WAS INVOLVED, WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO HIM. MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION? WITNESS: I THINK SO. MS. PONZOLI: OKAY, YOU CAN ANSWER IT. WITNESS: OKAY. A. I WOULD JUST LIKE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CORE IS DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 149 TAKEN IN WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER A REPRESENTATIVE SORT OF LOCATION RELATIVE TO OUR PREVIOUS CORES; MAKING SURE WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH COMPACTION OF THE CORE WHEN WE TAKE IT; MAKING SURE WE GET A WHOLE CORE; AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. Q. OKAY. WHAT IS A REPRESENTATIVE LOCATION? SIMILAR TO -- WELL, YOU SAID RELATIVE TO YOUR PRIOR LOCATIONS? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. OKAY. A. MAINLY IN SAWGRASS MARSHES, OR IN EMERGENT VEGETATION, AS OPPOSED TO, LIKE, TAKING CORES IN SLOUGHS. BECAUSE ALL OUR WORK UP TILL NOW HAS FOCUSED IN THESE AREAS WHERE THE MACROPHYTES ARE GROWING. AND I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY A DIFFERENCE IN PEAT BUILDUP BETWEEN SLOUGHS AND MACROPHYTE COMMUNITIES. Q. IF IT WERE A MACROPHYTE COMMUNITY THAT WAS HEAVILY CATTAIL, WOULD THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE? A. YEAH. WE WOULD TAKE SAMPLES IN THOSE, THOUGH, I MEAN. AND, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S A MONOTYPIC STAND OF CATTAIL OR ESSENTIALLY A MIXED OR FULL STAND OF CATTAIL. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 150 Q. WOULD THOSE BE COMPARABLE TO YOUR SAWGRASS MARSHES THAT YOU TOOK BEFORE? A. THEY WOULD BE COMPARABLE TO THE CATTAIL SITES THAT WE SAMPLED IN 2A. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THEN ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT REPRESENTATIVE LOCATIONS THAT YOU WOULD THINK WOULD BE IMPORTANT? A. NO. I THINK THAT'S -- THAT I CAN THINK OF, THAT'S IT. Q. YOU MEAN LIKE YOU WOULD WANT TO LOOK AT, LIKE, DENSE CATTAIL TO DENSE CATTAIL, OR MAYBE SOME RELATIVE MIX OF SAWGRASS/CATTAIL TO SAWGRASS/CATTAIL FROM BEFORE? IS THAT ACCURATE? AM I UNDERSTANDING YOU ACCURATELY? A. NO, NOT SO MUCH THERE, JUST MORE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T SAMPLE ON THE EDGE OF A SLOUGH. Q. OKAY. A. A LOT OF TIMES WHEN YOU'RE OUT IN THE FIELDS, IT'S VERY -- THE EASIEST SAMPLE TO GET IS THE ONE RIGHT THERE IN THESE OPEN AREAS, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY'RE ENTIRELY REPRESENTATIVE. YOU'VE GOT TO WALK INTO THE GRASS SOME AND THEN TAKE YOUR SAMPLE. Q. OKAY. OKAY. THE COMPACTION OF THE CORE -- JUST DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 151 SO I UNDERSTAND IT -- WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE COMPACTION OF THE CORE? A. IT COMPRESSES SOMETIMES AS YOU PUSH THE CORE INTO THE SOIL. Q. RIGHT. A. AND YOU DEFINITELY WANT TO MINIMIZE OR AVOID THAT. Q. OKAY. SO, THERE'S SOME ART IN USING THE DEVICE THAT PULLS THE CORE SAMPLE OUT? A. WELL, AND YOU HAVE TO SOMETIMES TAKE -- YOU KNOW, DISCARD ONE CORE AND GO TAKE IT, YOU KNOW, A FEW FEET AWAY BECAUSE YOU HAD SOME COMPACTION. YOU DON'T JUST, WELL, THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH AND, YOU KNOW, THROW IT IN. AND THERE ARE MANY TIMES WHEN WE TAKE THREE OR FOUR TO GET ONE THAT WE FEEL LIKE WE'RE HAPPY WITH, SO--- Q. ALL RIGHT. AND IF I UNDERSTOOD, THE TECHNIQUE THE WETLAND CENTER USES IS ONE THAT DR. RICHARDSON HAS DEVISED. IT'S A THREE-SIDED DEVICE--- A. YES. Q. ---THAT YOU SORT OF, LIKE, SLIP DOWN INTO THE SOIL, AND THEN YOU SLIP THE LAST SIDE DOWN--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---AND THEN LIFT THE WHOLE THING OUT, IS THAT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 152 ACCURATE? A. RIGHT. YES. Q. OKAY. AND WHAT IS THIS CONCEPT OF THE WHOLE CORE? A. DEPENDING ON -- THIS CORE CAN TAKE A FIFTY TO SIXTY CENTIMETER LONG CORE, AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT -- IT'S BETTER TO GET AN EXTRA LONG CORE THAN TO FIND OUT THAT YOU ONLY TOOK A TWENTY-FIVE CENTIMETER CORE AND FOUND OUT THAT THAT WASN'T -- YOU DIDN'T GO DOWN DEEP ENOUGH. SO, I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE PROBABLY A FIFTY CENTIMETER LONG CORE. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S MORE WORK INVOLVED DOING THAT, BUT -- AND IT TAKES LONGER -- BUT IT WILL SAVE YOU TIME IN THE LONG RUN BACK AT THE LAB. Q. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU ONE MORE QUESTION. CAN YOU SPLIT THESE CORES? IS IT POSSIBLE TO SPLIT THEM SO THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, VARIOUS SIDES COULD DO THEIR OWN ANALYSIS? LIKE, LET'S SAY IF ONE GROUP WANTED TO DO ITS ANALYSIS, AND THEN AN OPPOSING GROUP SAID, WELL, YOUR RESULTS ARE SORT OF FUNNY, WE WANT TO DO OUR OWN ANALYSIS. CAN YOU SPLIT THESE CORES? A. I'VE NOT TRIED IT. I MEAN, I THINK CONCEIVABLY DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 153 YOU COULD. YOU WOULD HAVE TO FREEZE IT, AND THEN PROBABLY CUT IT DOWN THE MIDDLE WITH A BAND SAW OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THE LIMITATION IS, IS THIS CORE IS ONLY ABOUT THIS BIG AROUND--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---AND IF YOU SPLIT IT, YOU MAY NOT END UP WITH ENOUGH MATERIAL TO DO THE ANALYSIS. BUT, I DON'T KNOW; THAT WOULD DEPEND. Q. HAVE YOU EVER -- HAVE YOU EVER, IN THE EVERGLADES, DUG A PIT AND COMPARED THE SOIL PIT PROFILE TO, LIKE, A CORE PROFILE OUT THERE? A. NO, I'VE NEVER DONE THAT. Q. ME EITHER. WHY -- WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT AN EMERGENT MARSH SITE BEING REPRESENTATIVE. WHY IS AN EMERGENT MARSH SITE MORE REPRESENTATIVE THAN, LIKE, THAT EDGE OF THE SLOUGH YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT? A. WELL, FROM THE LITERATURE, AND ALSO FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN OUT THERE, IS SAWGRASS IS THE DOMINANT PLANT COMMUNITY IN THE EVERGLADES. AND SO IT WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE, AT LEAST WHEN YOU'RE FIRST STARTING TO TAKE SAMPLES, IS TO FOCUS ON THE AREA THAT OCCUPIES THE BIGGEST -- THE GREATEST EXTENT OF ACREAGE. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 154 Q. OKAY. OKAY. GOING BACK TO THE SOIL CORES, HOW DO YOU EVALUATE COMPACTION? A. YOU CAN SEE, AS YOU PUSH IT IN, WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE -- WHETHER YOU ARE GETTING COMPACTION. AND ONE NICE THING ABOUT THE THREE-SIDED CORE IS IT TENDS TO HAVE LESS COMPACTION THAN OTHER CORES. AND, ALSO, BY HAVING THE THIRD SIDE OPEN, YOU CAN SEE WHETHER YOU'RE HAVING A PROBLEM WITH COMPACTION OR NOT. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, PULL IT BACK OUT AND GO TRY TO TAKE A SAMPLE ELSEWHERE. THAT'S THE BEST THING ABOUT IT, IS YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE WHAT'S GOING ON. Q. AND HOW MANY REPLICATES DO YOU BELIEVE YOU NEED? A. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION; I REALLY DON'T KNOW. THE MORE, THE BETTER, IS GENERALLY WHAT WE SAY IN SCIENCE, BUT YOU'RE CONSTRAINED AT SOME POINT BY THE PRACTICAL ASPECTS--- Q. OKAY. SO, MONEY AND TIME--- A. ---A MINIMUM OF TWO, YOU KNOW--- Q. ---BECOME LIMITING FACTORS? A. YEAH, SURE. Q. OKAY. OKAY. RETURNING TO YOUR MANUSCRIPT, ON PAGE 1, YOU INDICATE AT THE BOTTOM THAT NUTRIENT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 155 ENRICHMENT OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A IS -- VIA RAINFALL AND SURFACE FLOW WERE SIX TO EIGHT TIMES HIGHER THAN INPUTS TO THE UNENRICHED PART OF 2A. YOU'RE NOT IMPLYING THAT RAINFALL HAS INCREASED SIX TO EIGHT TIMES, ARE YOU? A. NO, NO. I JUST MEAN THE OVERALL INPUT--- Q. OKAY. A. ---OF PHOSPHORUS TO THE SYSTEM. Q. ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU DONE ANY COMPARISON OF THE INCREASE OF PHOSPHORUS IN RAINFALL? A. NO. THAT DATA, I HAVE TAKEN FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT SWIM PLAN. Q. SO, YOU JUST TAKE WHATEVER THE RAINFALL PHOSPHORUS INPUT THAT'S REFLECTED IN THE SWIM PLAN, THAT'S THE PHOSPHORUS INPUT THAT YOU'RE--- A. THAT'S WHAT I HAVE USED IN HERE, YES. Q. OKAY. OKAY. I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT WERE IN THIS PAPER, OR IN CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER SIXTEEN, BUT I THINK YOU INDICATED THAT THE PHOSPHORUS IN METRIC TONS TO -- WAS IT 2A -- WAS FIFTY-FOUR METRIC TONS? A. THAT, IF I'M CORRECT, IS THE AMOUNT THAT COMES THROUGH THE GATES INTO 2A. Q. OKAY. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 156 A. IT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE RAINFALL. Q. AND THE RAINFALL PUTS IT UP TO SIXTY-ONE? A. I THINK SO. THAT -- I MEAN, THAT SOUNDS CORRECT. Q. THAT SOUNDS RIGHT? A. UH-HUH (YES). Q. OKAY. AND THE DIFFERENCE YOU GOT FROM FIFTY-FOUR TO SIXTY-ONE WAS JUST FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---SWIM PLAN? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT PAGE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL IS LOWER IN THE ENRICHED SITE, WHICH IS EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT, YOU SAY, THAN AT THE UNENRICHED LOCATION -- WHICH IS A HUNDRED PERCENT. GIVE ME A MOMENT HERE. THE EFFICIENCY CONCEPT IS IMPORTANT IN THIS PAPER, ISN'T THAT TRUE? I'M HAVING TROUBLE WITH YOUR EFFICIENCY CONCEPT, AND SO THAT'S WHY I'M HAVING TROUBLE. I HAVE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING IT, AND I'M HAVING TROUBLE FRAMING MY QUESTIONS. SO, JUST GIVE ME SOME TIME--- A. OKAY. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 157 Q. ---AND I THINK I SEE SOME, AT LEAST FROM MY VIEW, SOME DIFFERENCE IN WHAT YOU SAID IN YOUR ABSTRACT AND YOUR CONCLUSIONS, IF I UNDERSTAND THIS, SO JUST GIVE ME A SECOND HERE. EXPLAIN TO ME -- WHY DON'T WE START -- WHY DON'T I JUST HAVE YOU EDUCATE ME AS TO WHAT YOU ARE MEANING WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT EFFICIENCY AND THAT MAY HELP ME FRAME MY QUESTIONS BETTER. WHAT IS YOUR CENTRAL CONCEPT THROUGHOUT THIS PAPER ON THE EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL IN THE ENRICHED SITES AND THE UNENRICHED SITES? WHY DON'T WE START WITH THAT. A. NOW I'M CONFUSED. Q. I CAN DO IT TO ANYONE. A. OKAY. REPEAT THE QUESTION AGAIN. I THOUGHT I KNEW WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, BUT NOW I'M NOT SO SURE. Q. OKAY. EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL IN AN UNENRICHED VERSUS ENRICHED SITE IS AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT IN THIS MANUSCRIPT, IS IT NOT? A. YES, BUT IT'S NOT ESSENTIAL; IT'S NOT -- I THINK YOU MAY BE OVERSTATING THE IMPORTANCE OF IT--- Q. ISN'T IT--- A. ---I MEAN, IT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT I TALK DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 158 ABOUT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S ONE OF THE -- IT'S NOT A CENTRAL CONCEPT TO THE PAPER. Q. OKAY. WELL, EVEN IF IT'S A SECONDARY CONCEPT--- A. OKAY. Q. ---I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS GOING ON IN EFFICIENCY? A. EFFICIENCY ALLOWS YOU TO KIND OF COMPARE -- IT'S A RELATIVE SORT OF THING. AS AN EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY YOU HAVE TWO DIFFERENT WETLANDS EACH OF WHICH STORE, SAY, ONE GRAM OF PHOSPHORUS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR. IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE TWO NUMBERS, THEY'RE THE SAME. AND YOU WOULD SAY, WELL, THE TWO WETLANDS ARE THE SAME. BUT LET'S SAY ONE WETLAND HAS A MUCH HIGHER INPUT OF PHOSPHORUS TO THE SYSTEM -- YOU KNOW, IT HAS TEN TIMES AS MUCH PHOSPHORUS COMING INTO THE SYSTEM THAN THE OTHER ONE. SO, THIS ALLOWS YOU TO SORT OF COMPARE THE RELATIVE, HOW IT FUNCTIONS, IN TERMS OF THIS ECOSYSTEM PROCESS OF PHOSPHORUS STORAGE OR NUTRIENT STORAGE. AM I MAKING SENSE HERE? Q. I THINK SO. SO -- JUST SO I'M CLEAR, THOUGH -- I MEAN, I HAVE TO GET THIS CONCEPT STRAIGHT, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT IT IS AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT, THAT AT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 159 LEAST OTHER PEOPLE WILL WALK AWAY FROM YOUR MANUSCRIPT WITH, WHATEVER IMPORTANCE YOU PLACED ON IT. OKAY? A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.) Q. ARE YOU SAYING THAT -- LIKE AT THE TOP OF 2A -- THAT IT IS VERY EFFICIENT IN THE ENRICHED AREAS BECAUSE IT'S PULLING OUT MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PHOSPHORUS? A. WELL, IN TERMS OF THIS, THE WAY I REFER TO EFFICIENCY, IT'S ACTUALLY LESS EFFICIENT, BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH PHOSPHORUS COMING INTO THE SYSTEM THAT PERHAPS IT CAN'T ASSIMILATE ALL OF IT. WELL, HERE EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT (87%) OF WHAT'S COMING IN IS BEING REMOVED, BUT THAT MEANS THIRTEEN PERCENT (13%) OF WHATEVER IS COMING IN IS NOT BEING STORED. Q. RIGHT. BUT THERE'S SO MUCH COMING IN--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---VERSUS WHAT'S COMING IN, LET'S SAY, TO THE BOTTOM OF -- WELL, YOUR--- A. WELL, THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT EFFICIENCY IN TERMS OF THIS RELATIVE SORT OF THING. Q. OKAY. LET'S TAKE AT THE BOTTOM OF 10D, YOUR DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 160 SIXTH--- A. OKAY. Q. ---SITE LOCATION AT THE BOTTOM OF 10D. A. OKAY. Q. WHAT ARE THE SURFACE WATER CONCENTRATIONS COMING IN AT YOUR FIRST SITE ALONG 10D, JUST BELOW THESE STRUCTURES? A. I DON'T REALLY HAVE THAT NUMBER. AGAIN, THAT'S DR. QUALLS' WORK. BUT, SUFFICE IT TO SAY, IT'S HIGHER AT D1 THAN AT D6. Q. SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER--- A. YES. Q. ---THAN D6? A. YEAH. Q. OKAY. D1 IS PULLING OUT A LOT OF PHOSPHORUS BECAUSE IT'S DEPOSITING ALONG THE GRADIENT, IS IT NOT? A. RIGHT. Q. OKAY. A. IT'S REMOVING MORE THAN D6. D1 TAKES OUT MORE PHOSPHORUS PER -- IN GRAMS, PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR THAN D6 DOES. Q. OKAY. BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S LESS EFFICIENT THAN D6, IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR STATEMENT HERE? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 161 A. WELL, THIS IS MORE -- THIS -- I'M REFERRING HERE MORE NOT SO MUCH NOT SO MUCH IN TERMS OF THINKING OF THESE THINGS AS NUTRIENT -- AS A FILTER SO MUCH, BUT MORE THE ECOLOGICAL APPLICATION. IN TERMS OF -- THIS SORT OF SUGGESTS THAT MAYBE PHOSPHORUS IS SOMEWHAT LIMITING AT THESE AREAS WHEN -- IF IT REMOVES A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE PHOSPHORUS, THEN THAT TELLS YOU THAT MAYBE THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PHOSPHORUS FOR THE ORGANISMS THERE, AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE SUCKING IT ALL OUT. OR ELSE THERE'S SO LITTLE COMING INTO THE SYSTEM, AND IT IS LIMITING, THAT THEY ARE SUCKING IT OUT. WHEREAS, UP HERE, AT EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT, SURE THERE IS A LOT COMING IN, AND THERE'S PROBABLY A LOT MORE COMING IN THAN THE COMMUNITY NEEDS TO GROW, OR EVOLVE, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. Q. THAT SUPPORTS THE WELL -- THE WELL-DOCUMENTED AND WIDELY HELD BELIEF THAT PHOSPHORUS IS THE LIMITING FACTOR, DOESN'T IT? A. OH, YES, I THINK SO. Q. OKAY. OKAY. SO, IN REALITY, THIS EFFICIENCY CONCEPT, FROM A LAYMAN'S STANDPOINT, IS ALMOST THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU REALLY THINK IT MEANS? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 162 A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD SAY THAT. MAYBE REPHRASE YOUR QUESTION; I DON'T REALLY FOLLOW YOU HERE. Q. WELL, I THINK I UNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU SAID, AND I -- YOU KNOW, YOU'RE SAYING THAT THAT IS LESS EFFICIENT AT THE TOP, AT D1 THAN AT D6. BUT THAT ONLY MEANS THAT THE SYSTEM IS NOT HUNGRY AT D1. THE SYSTEM IS ALREADY, LET'S SAY, PHOSPHORUS SATURATED, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. I THINK WE ARE USING EFFICIENCY IN TWO DIFFERENT -- I VIEW IT KIND OF AS ONE DEFINITION, AND YOU VIEW IT AS ANOTHER, IN TERMS OF--- Q. OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME YOUR DEFINITION OF EFFICIENCY? I THINK I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE, BUT GIVE ME YOUR DEFINITION OF EFFICIENCY. A. I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT I'M -- WHAT -- I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED RIGHT NOW. SO, COULD YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION? I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOU MEAN HERE. Q. WELL, I WANT YOU TO DEFINE EFFICIENCY FOR ME. A. EFFICIENCY HERE IS -- ONE HUNDRED PERCENT EFFICIENT WOULD REMOVE IT ALL. IT IF REMOVES LESS THAN ONE HUNDRED PERCENT, IT'S A -- IT'S A DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 163 RELATIVE SORT OF NUMBER. IT'S SORT OF A PERCENTAGE OF, YOU KNOW, THE INPUT VERSUS THE STORAGE. Q. OKAY. OKAY. RETURNING TO THE CORE SAMPLES, THERE'S A QUESTION. CAN YOU EVER COMPLETELY ELIMINATE COMPACTION EFFECTS WHEN YOU TAKE A CORE SAMPLE? A. YOU MAY HAVE A -- YOU CAN NEVER BE ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAIN, BUT YOU CAN BE NINETY-FIVE TO NINETY-NINE PERCENT CERTAIN. IF YOU TAKE A CORE AND YOU LOOK AND YOU SEE THAT THE SOIL ELEVATION INSIDE THE CORE IS AT THE SAME LEVEL AS OUTSIDE THE CORE, THEN YOU'VE DONE A GOOD JOB. IF YOU SEE, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S HAPPENED INSIDE THE CORE DROPPED TWO INCHES, THEN YOU KNOW YOU HAVE PROBLEMS, AND YOU HAVE TO PRETTY MUCH PULL YOUR CORE OUT AND GO TAKE ANOTHER CORE. Q. IS THERE SOME LEARNING CURVE FOR HOW TO DO THESE CORE SAMPLINGS IN THE EVERGLADES? A. WELL, I THINK IT'S LIKE ANYTHING ELSE, THE MORE YOU DO IT, THE BETTER YOU GET. YOU REACH SOME ASYMPTOTE, THOUGH, WHERE -- YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I'VE TAKEN A LOT OF CORES, I WON'T SAY I'M AN -- YOU KNOW, I JUST -- I'M PROBABLY A PRETTY GOOD FIELD DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 164 GRUNT OUT THERE; I'VE TAKEN A LOT OF SOIL CORES, SO. AND I'VE WORKED IN OTHER PEAT BASED WETLANDS TOO, SO. Q. IS THERE ANY WAY YOU COULD -- IS IT JUST A PERSONAL THING WHEN YOU LEARN TO DO THIS APPROPRIATELY OR NOT? I MEAN, THERE'S NO TIME -- THERE'S NO TIME -- IT DOESN'T TAKE, LIKE, SEVERAL FIELD TRIPS--- A. NO, NO. Q. ---OR SOME PEOPLE DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO LEARN FOR A WHILE, IS THAT ACCURATE? A. RIGHT. IT'S SORT OF LIKE PROBABLY DIGGING A POST HOLE. YOU KNOW, YOU GET IT DEEP ENOUGH THE FIRST TIME, OR -- I MEAN, IT'S LIKE ANYTHING ELSE. IT'S PHYSICAL LABOR, AND YOU USE YOUR EYES AND YOUR BRAIN A LITTLE BIT, AND YOU CAN TAKE A PRETTY GOOD CORE. Q. DOES COMPACTION TEND TO OVER OR UNDERESTIMATE ACCRETION RATE? A. COMPACTION WILL TEND TO UNDERESTIMATE THE ACCRETION RATE; IT WILL MAKE IT LESS. Q. IS THERE ANY WAY TO SORT THAT OUT WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT YOUR DATA TO KIND OF FIGURE OUT IF YOU DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 165 HAD THAT GOING ON OVER THE COURSE OF YOUR CORE SAMPLES? A. NO. YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN THE FIELD TO MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE CORE RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. I MEAN, THAT'S THE REAL KEY IS, IT'S SOMETHING YOU WANT TO, YOU KNOW, DO RIGHT -- CORRECTLY THE FIRST TIME--- Q. OKAY. A. ---OR -- YOU KNOW, IN THE FIELD. Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU STATE AT THE END OF YOUR ABSTRACT, ON PAGE 2, THAT YOUR FINDINGS -- OR OUR FINDINGS -- I GUESS REFERRING TO -- IS THAT YOURS AND DR. RICHARDSON'S, OR REALLY THE WHOLE DUKE WETLAND CENTER'S FINDINGS? A. WELL, HERE SINCE WE'RE THE COAUTHORS, IT REALLY MORE REFERS TO US. Q. OKAY. A. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, THE UNDER INVESTIGATION REFERS TO THE ENTIRE PROJECT, YOU KNOW. Q. OKAY. A. AND, ACTUALLY, IT REFERS TO OTHER PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, IT COULD REFER TO THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT AND PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING SIMILAR TYPES OF RESEARCH. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 166 Q. OKAY. OUR FINDINGS SUGGESTS THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHED AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE HAS CONTRIBUTED TO INCREASED RATES OF PEAT ACCRETION AND PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION IN AREAS OF THE NORTHERN EVERGLADES THAT HAVE BEEN RECEIVING AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE FOR THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE TO THIRTY YEARS. HOW DOES NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT DO THIS? A. IT ADDS THE N AND THE P. IT ADDS THE NUTRIENTS, WHICH ENABLE -- WELL, I'M NOT QUITE SURE -- AGAIN, CAN YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION? DO YOU WANT TO KNOW THE MECHANISM BY WHICH THIS OCCURS, OR--- Q. I WANT TO KNOW HOW NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR INCREASING--- A. OKAY. Q. ---PEAT ACCRETION AND PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION--- A. OKAY. Q. ---AND IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE THE MECHANISM, THEN EXPLAIN THE MECHANISM. MR. BURGESS: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THE STATEMENT SAYS CONTRIBUTED TO, NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR. MS. PONZOLI: YOU MAY ANSWER. HE DOESN'T REPRESENT YOU. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 167 MR. BURGESS: I CAN OBJECT FOR THE RECORD, THOUGH, CAN'T I? MS. PONZOLI: I CAN'T STOP YOU. MR. BURGESS: THAT'S RIGHT. A. OKAY. I THINK THAT -- NOW, THIS IS MY OPINION AS TO HOW I THINK THIS OCCURS -- THAT THE N AND P IN THE WATER IS TAKEN UP BY THE PLANTS; THE PLANTS GROW MORE; THEY DIE -- OR AS THEY SENESCENCE, THEY DEPOSIT MORE PEAT, AND SO YOU SEE AN ENHANCEMENT IN PEAT BUILDUP. AND, IN ADDITION, THE PLANTS ARE TAKING UP MORE NUTRIENTS WHILE THEY'RE GROWING MORE, SO YOU GET THIS PHOSPHORUS ENRICHED PEAT ACCUMULATING OVER TIME. THAT'S WHAT I THINK IS HOW THIS OCCURS. Q. YOU GO ON TO SAY THAT "THE AFFECTED AREA" -- I ASSUME WE'RE -- I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ENRICHED AREA OF 2A? A. RIGHT. Q. "HAS FUNCTIONED AS A PHOSPHORUS SINK PRIMARILY DUE TO INCREASED ORGANIC PHOSPHORUS STORAGE." AND A SINK, CAN YOU DEFINE THAT FOR ME, DR. CRAFT? A. IT'S A SINK; JUST AN AREA WHERE MATERIAL ACCUMULATES. Q. AND DOESN'T MOVE ON, OR NOT? DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 168 A. WELL, YOU KNOW, A BATHTUB -- A SINK HAS A DRAIN IN IT, SO--- Q. OKAY. A. ---I MEAN, IT COULD OR IT COULD NOT. Q. OKAY. IS THAT THE CONCEPT OF EQUILIBRIUM, IT WILL, SORT OF -- LIKE SAND, IT WILL BUILD AND THEN IT WILL KIND OF TUMBLE ALONG, AND BUILD AND TUMBLE ALONG--- A. I DON'T REALLY--- Q. ---IS THAT AN ACCURATE ANALOGY? A. ---I REALLY DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T FEEL QUALIFIED OR HAVE ENOUGH GOOD INFORMATION TO SAY WHETHER IT'S THERE FOR PERPETUITY, OR WHETHER IT MAY MOVE ON OVER TIME. NOTHING LASTS FOREVER. WE ALL KNOW THAT. Q. I'VE HEARD THAT STATEMENT A FEW TIMES. IN THIS CONCEPT OF THINGS NOT LASTING OR STAYING THERE, THOUGH, IN THE DRAFT OF THE MANUSCRIPT -- AND I KNOW IT'S A DRAFT, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND THAT CONCEPT--- A. OKAY. Q. ---IN CRAFT NUMBER SIXTEEN, THOUGH, YOU TALK ABOUT PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATING IN THE ENRICHED AREA IS PERMANENTLY SEQUESTERED IN THE PEAT DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 169 MATRIX, AND UNDER CURRENT CONDITIONS IS UNLIKELY TO BE RELEASED BACK INTO THE WATER COLUMN AND EXPORTED DOWNSTREAM. WHAT DOES THAT PERMANENTLY MEAN? A. MAY I LOOK AT THAT, PLEASE? Q. OH, SURE. LET -- I THINK I HAVE A COPY; I CAN GIVE YOU A COPY. AND I -- IT'S NOT A NUMBERED PAGE, BUT IT'S ABOUT THAT FAR BACK. A. OKAY. Q. I HAVE ONLY A COUPLE OF MORE COPIES DOWN HERE. I DON'T HAVE--- MR. McCAUGHAN: I HAVE ONE. Q. ---SIXTEEN. I DON'T KNOW WHO NEEDS ONE. A. CAN YOU GO TO, LIKE, A PREVIOUS PAGE AND SEE WHAT -- WHAT'S THE HEADING ON--- Q. YEAH. IT'S PHOSPHORUS STORAGE EFFICIENCY IN 2A. A. OKAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: IT'S UNNUMBERED. Q. IT'S UNNUMBERED, I'M SORRY. BUT IF YOU GO TO PHOSPHORUS STORAGE EFFICIENCY IN 2A, IT'S THE NEXT PAGE BACK--- A. OKAY. Q. ---YOU'RE A LITTLE -- I MEAN, IT'S A LITTLE FURTHER BACK. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 170 MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY. YOU'VE FOUND IT, YEAH, OKAY. A. WHAT I MEAN HERE -- AND THIS IS BASED, TO A GREAT EXTENT, ON SOME OF THE WORK OF DR. QUALLS -- THAT I CITE RIGHT ABOVE THERE IN THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE. THAT HE HAS DONE SOME PHOSPHORUS FRACTIONATION WORK. AND, AGAIN, HE'S THE -- YOU KNOW, HE KNOWS A LOT MORE ABOUT THIS THAN ME, BUT HE FOUND THAT OVER EIGHTY FIVE PERCENT -- I'LL READ IT RIGHT OUT OF THE TEXT -- OF THE SOIL PEAT IN THE ENRICHED AREA EXISTS AS REFRACTORY COMPOUNDS SUCH AS LOW SOLUBILITY ORGANIC P IN CALCIUM PHOSPHATES AND IRON AND ALUMINUM. AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT PHOSPHORUS IN THE SOIL, THESE FORMS ARE GENERALLY CONSIDERED TO BE VERY LOW SOLUBILITY. THEY ARE NOT -- IF YOU TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT MAY BE AD -- PHOSPHORUS THAT IS ADSORBED, IT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE DESORBED UNDER THE RIGHT KIND OF CONDITIONS. Q. UH-HUH (YES). A. BUT THESE SORTS OF COMPOUNDS HERE ARE ACTUALLY TIED UP IN A CRYSTAL AND MATRIX, AT LEAST THE CALCIUM, IRON AND ALUMINUM. THE ORGANIC P COMPONENT WAS DIGESTIBLE ONLY IN HOT NITRIC DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 171 PERCHLORIC ACID, AND MEANING THAT, YOU KNOW, UNDER JUST MOST NORMAL CONDITIONS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PULL IT OUT INTO SOLUTION. SO, HERE, PERMANENTLY REFERS -- AGAIN, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT FOREVER, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, BUT JUST RELATIVE TO SOME OF THESE MORE LABILE FORMS THAT MAY COME BACK IN THE SOLUTION, OR THAT ARE AVAILABLE FOR PLANTS TO TAKE UP. Q. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT PERMANENTLY MIGHT MEAN IN TEMPORAL TERMS? A. I THINK ON THE ORDER OF YEARS, PROBABLY. AND, YOU KNOW, PERHAPS LONGER. I DON'T KNOW. Q. OKAY. TWO TO FIVE YEARS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT? A. MAYBE ONE TO TEN YEARS. Q. OKAY. A. BUT THIS ALSO ASSUMES THAT CONDITIONS DO NOT CHANGE IN TERMS OF FLOODING AND FIRE AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS. Q. THIS IS ASSUMING THE NUTRIENT UN-MANAGEMENT, OR NUTRIENT REGIME THAT PRESENTLY EXISTS CONTINUING IN A SIMILAR WAY? A. WELL, TO SOME EXTENT. I MEAN, IT'S HARD TO TALK ABOUT A -- IF YOU HAD A CATASTROPHIC FIRE, CERTAINLY SOME OF THAT PHOSPHORUS WOULD -- OR A DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 172 LOT OF THAT PHOSPHORUS COULD COME BACK OUT. Q. OKAY. WELL, LET'S TAKE TWO SCENARIOS. LET'S SAY YOU HAD, FOR SOME HORRIBLE REASON, INCREASING PHOSPHORUS COMING IN. WOULD THAT AFFECT THIS PERMANENTLY? A. I DON'T THINK IT WOULD AFFECT WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN STORED HERE--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---WHAT MIGHT OCCUR IS SINCE MORE IS COMING IN--- Q. RIGHT. A. ---THEN MORE WILL PROBABLY COME OUT AT THE OTHER END. Q. OKAY. A. SO, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD AFFECT THIS -- THE MATERIAL THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN STORED, BUT THE POTENTIAL EXISTS FOR THE PHOSPHORUS COMING IN, THAT MAYBE LESS OF THAT MIGHT BE STORED. SINCE YOU'RE--- Q. OKAY. A. ---YOU START TALKING ABOUT EFFICIENCY AGAIN, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q. OKAY. IT WOULD TRAVEL FURTHER DOWNSTREAM TO BE TAKEN UP? A. YEAH, IT COULD BE. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 173 Q. OKAY. WHAT IF YOU DECREASED THE PHOSPHORUS COMING IN BY, LET'S SAY, THE STA'S? A. AGAIN, I THINK THIS STUFF WOULD PROBABLY STAY PRETTY MUCH WHERE IT IS. YOU WOULDN'T -- I DON'T THINK THAT THAT WOULD REALLY CHANGE WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN STORED. I MEAN, THERE'S ALWAYS POTENTIAL, I THINK, FOR A LITTLE BIT OF THIS MATERIAL TO COME BACK INTO SOLUTION, BUT I THINK THESE COMPOUNDS HERE THAT DR. QUALLS BROKE OUT, THESE ARE REALLY PRETTY INSOLUBLE FORMS OF PHOSPHORUS, AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE RELEASED READILY BACK INTO THE SYSTEM. Q. AND YOU'RE THINKING THAT IT WOULD STAY THERE SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE OF ONE TO TEN YEARS? A. PERHAPS LONGER. I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S--- Q. AND YOU'D JUST MONITOR IT TO SEE IF IT BEGAN TO BE RELEASED OR NOT? A. I THINK MOST OF -- YOU COULD DO THAT. BUT MY FEELING IS, THIS PEAT BUILDUP IS SOMETHING THAT IF THE PLANTS CAN CONTINUE TO GROW AND TO TAKE UP NUTRIENTS, THERE'S NO REASON WHY -- AT LEAST IF YOU DON'T OVERLOAD THE SYSTEM WITH HIGHER AMOUNTS OF NUTRIENTS -- THAT IT -- THAT STUFF -- IT CAN'T -- IT COULD CONTINUE TO KEEP TAKING DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 174 MATERIAL UP, AND CONTINUE TO STORE IT. Q. OKAY. FURTHER DOWN ON THE PAGE, YOU INDICATE, HOWEVER -- ARE YOU WITH ME -- SORT OF LIKE A LITTLE PAST HALFWAY IN THAT PARAGRAPH? A. I THINK SO. Q. HOWEVER, OUR STUDY ON LONG-TERM PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION IN WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A SUGGESTS THAT IN AREAS SUBSTANTIALLY LARGER THAN THIRTEEN THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED HECTARES WOULD BE NEEDED TO EFFECTIVELY AND PERMANENTLY REMOVE THE PHOSPHORUS IN AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE. SO, THAT PERMANENTLY, AGAIN, IS A--- A. IT'S A -- IT COULD BE--- Q. ---RELATIVE TERM? A. ---YEARS, IT COULD MAYBE EVEN BE DECADES. I JUST DON'T THINK ANYBODY CAN SAY. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD STICK THEIR NECK OUT AND SAY THAT IT WILL BE THERE FOREVER. Q. SURE. SURE. SO, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF UNKNOWNS? A. OH, CERTAINLY. Q. OKAY. AND THESE UNKNOWNS CANNOT BE SORTED OUT, IS THAT ACCURATE? I MEAN, THEY CAN BE SORTED OUT, BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE SORTED OUT IN ANY VERY DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 175 SHORT-TERM PERIOD? A. I'M SORRY, COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION? I'VE GOT COMMUNI--- Q. YOU'RE GETTING NOTES LIKE I AM. MS. PONZOLI: YOU'RE GETTING NOTES LIKE I AM. I DON'T THINK THAT'S CRICKET, GUYS. I THINK I'M ALLOWED TO GET NOTES; I DON'T THINK YOU ARE. WITNESS: AREN'T I ALLOWED TO GET NOTES? MS. PONZOLI: NO, NO, THIS IS A ONE-SIDED GAME. THEY DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT? WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN BELIEVE YOU, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH. MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK RALPH WILL TELL YOU, IT'S A ONE-SIDED GAME. WITNESS: I'M GOING TO GET YOU GUYS ON MY PLAYING FIELD SOME DAY. MR. McCAUGHAN: LET'S HAVE A -- IF WE CAN TAKE A BREAK, THEN, I WANT TO TALK TO HIM. MS. PONZOLI: DO YOU NEED TO TAKE A BREAK? MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH. DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 176 WITNESS: I'D LIKE TO TAKE A BREAK, PLEASE. MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH. MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. MR. McCAUGHAN: CAN WE GO OFF THE RECORD? MS. PONZOLI: ALL RIGHT. BUT I WOULD LIKE THE CANDOR OF MY WITNESS TO CONTINUE--- MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH, SURE--- MS. PONZOLI: ---FOLLOWING THE BREAK. MR. McCAUGHAN: ---NO, NO, I'LL JUST -- OKAY. (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED BY THE COURT REPORTER, AND A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES: Q. OKAY. YOUR FINAL SENTENCE IN THE ABSTRACT, DR. CRAFT, IS THAT THE EFFECTS OF NUTRIENT LOADING, ESPECIALLY PHOSPHORUS, ON A LONG-TERM STABILITY OF THE EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEM, AND ON THE LONG-TERM PHOSPHORUS STORAGE POTENTIAL OF EVERGLADES PEATS ARE POORLY UNDERSTOOD, AND ARE DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 177 CURRENTLY UNDER INVESTIGATION. LET'S BREAK THAT OUT INTO TWO PARTS -- OF THE LONG-TERM STABILITY AND THE LONG-TERM PHOSPHORUS STORAGE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY LONG-TERM STABILITY? A. THESE CHANGES IN THE COMMUNITIES--- Q. OKAY. OKAY. A. ---ARE WHAT I'M REFERRING TO. Q. OKAY. THE COMMUNITY CHANGES, YOU SAY, ARE POORLY UNDERSTOOD. ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS THE INVESTIGATION THAT'S LOOKING AT COMMUNITY CHANGES? A. YOU MEAN IN THE CONTEXT OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, OR JUST--- Q. YES, SIR. A. WELL, THE FERTILIZER STUDY, AND THE DOSING STUDY, AND DR. RADER'S WORK IN CONSERVATION AREA 2A. Q. OKAY. IS THE DOSING STUDY DESIGNED TO SORT OUT THE COMMUNITY CHANGES OCCURRING AS A RESULT OF NUTRIENT LOADING? A. I'M REALLY NOT -- I'M NOT INVOLVED IN THE DOSING STUDY, SO I'M NOT QUITE SURE I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT IT TO BE ABLE TO ANSWER THOSE -- THE QUESTIONS RELATING TO THAT. I MEAN, MY UNDERSTANDING IS, IT'S RELATING -- TRYING TO DETERMINE AT WHAT CONCENTRATION OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE WATER COLUMN DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 178 YOU START TO SEE CHANGES -- OR THESE CHANGES OCCUR. Q. CHANGES IN THE MICROBIAL COMMUNITIES, THE PERIPHYTON COMMUNITIES, AND THE MACROPHYTE COMMUNITIES--- A. RIGHT. Q. ---IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING? A. RIGHT. AND THE SOIL. Q. OKAY. DID YOU HELP DESIGN THE DOSING STUDY? A. NO. I REALLY HAVEN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN IT. Q. WILL YOU BE DOING ANY DATA COLLECTION AT THE DOSING STUDY? A. I KIND OF HOPE NOT. I DON'T THINK SO. AT THIS POINT, I WON'T BE. NO. I'M IN CHARGE OF THE FERTILIZER STUDY, AND THAT KEEPS ME SUFFICIENTLY BUSY. Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD YOU, PERSONALLY, SET UP A DOSING STUDY TO SEE WHAT PHOSPHORUS DOES FOR COMMUNITY CHANGES? A. WELL, NOT KNOWING A WHOLE LOT ABOUT IT, I THINK THE DESIGN AS SET UP BY CURT AND DR. QUALLS AND THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IS A GOOD WAY TO APPROACH IT. Q. SO, YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO STEP INTO THAT EVERGLADES PEAT TO DESIGN A DOSING STUDY OF YOUR DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 179 OWN? A. I JUST -- YEAH, I JUST DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT IT. I HAVE NOT BEEN INTIMATELY INVOLVED WITH THAT, SO. Q. OKAY. IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON YOU WEREN'T INVOLVED WITH THAT PROJECT? A. YEAH, I HAVE ENOUGH STUFF GOING ON WITHOUT GETTING INVOLVED IN THE DOSING STUDY. Q. ALL RIGHT. WELL, LET ME ASK YOU, THEN, JUST SO I'M CLEAR, EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE PRESENTLY WORKING ON. TELL ME THE PROJECTS THAT YOU ARE CURRENTLY DOIN