DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 230
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. DR. CRAFT, I WANT TO ASK YOU A FEW MORE QUESTIONS
ON THE CESIUM DATA. FIRST, I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT
THE APPENDIX ONE THAT APPEARS AT THE BEGINNING OF
THE COMPOSITE EXHIBIT FIVE. IT SAYS APPENDIX ONE
CONTINUED. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT'S CONTINUED
FROM?
A. THERE SHOULD BE ANOTHER PAGE THAT SAYS -- IT --
THE APPENDIX ONE WAS TWO PAGES, ESSENTIALLY---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---AND THIS IS THE SECOND PAGE OF IT.
Q. OKAY. DO---
A. IT'S PROBABLY IN HERE SOMEWHERE.
Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. I THINK THAT'S WHAT DR. MAFFEI IS
INDICATING TO ME. IS THIS -- OKAY, THE VERY LAST
PAGE, OR NEXT TO THE LAST PAGE IN THIS COMPOSITE
EXHIBIT IS -- SAYS APPENDIX ONE, ALSO.
A. OKAY.
Q. AND THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST PAGE OF APPENDIX ONE,
AND THIS IS THE SECOND PAGE---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---OF APPENDIX ONE?
A. RIGHT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. NORMALLY -- AREN'T THERE NORMALLY TWO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 231
PEAKS IN CESIUM DATING?
A. THERE CAN BE, BUT NOT -- I DON'T THINK NORMALLY
THERE ARE TWO PEAKS.
Q. NORMALLY, THERE'RE NOT. WHAT ARE THOSE TWO TIME
PERIODS?
A. OH, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT. YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT ONE PEAK OCCURS IN 1964, WHICH IS -- WELL,
'63-'64---
Q. SURE.
A. ---THE PERIOD OF MAXIMUM PRODUCTION OF CESIUM 137
FROM WEAPONS TESTING. BUT SOME PEOPLE USE A '54
PEAK, WHICH WAS WHEN THE FIRST WEAPONS TESTING
OCCURRED. SO, THAT'S WHEN CESIUM FIRST APPEARS
IN THE PROFILE.
Q. OKAY. JUST BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, HOW WOULD YOU
KNOW WHICH CESIUM PEAK YOU'RE LOOKING AT?
A. WELL, THE '63 PEAK WAS BY FAR MUCH BIGGER. SO,
THAT'S THE ONE YOU WOULD KNOW; THE BIGGEST PEAK
WOULD CORRESPOND TO THAT. AND THE SECOND ONE --
REALLY IT'S NOT TWO PEAKS, YOU LOOK FOR THE
PEAK---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---FROM '63, '64, THE PERIOD OF MAXIMUM
DEPOSITION. BUT THE '54 PERIOD YOU'RE TALKING
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 232
ABOUT IS WHEN YOU FIRST SEE CESIUM IN THE PROFILE,
WHEN IT FIRST -- JUST WHEN IT FIRST SHOWS UP---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---CAUSE PRIOR TO '54, THERE WAS NO ABOVEGROUND
WEAPONS TESTING, OR NO SIGNIFICANT ABOVEGROUND
WEAPONS TESTING.
Q. SO, THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST MARKER THAT YOU WOULD
FIND. IT WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE A PEAK?
A. RIGHT. IT'S WHEN IT SHOULD FIRST SHOW UP, WHEN
YOU FIRST SEE IT IN THE PROFILE.
Q. OKAY. NOW, MY NEXT QUESTION IS, YOU INDICATE IN
YOUR LIST OF FIGURES -- YOU SAY FIGURE ONE AND YOU
TALK ABOUT IT, AND THEN YOU SAY FIGURE TWO AND YOU
TALK ABOUT IT -- THAT THE DEPTH DISTRIBUTION OF
CESIUM IN REPRESENTATIVE SOIL CORES COLLECTED FROM
THE NORTHERN AND CENTRAL EVERGLADES. HOW DID YOU
KNOW WHICH WERE REPRESENTATIVE?
A. ALL I MEANT BY REPRESENTATIVE WAS, OF ALL THE
CESIUM DATA WE COLLECTED---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---I COULD NOT VERY WELL -- OR I DON'T THINK THE
JOURNAL WOULD ACCEPT TWENTY OR EIGHTEEN CESIUM
PROFILES. SO, I PULLED OUT WHAT I CONSIDERED WERE
REPRESENTATIVE PROFILES TO SHOW IN GRAPHICAL FORM,
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 233
AND THEN THE OTHER DATA IS IN THE TABLE. SO,
THAT'S ALL THAT MEANS IS---
Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THE "OTHER DATA IS IN THE
TABLE," TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN.
A. IN APPENDIX ONE.
Q. OH, OKAY. SO, ALL THE DATA APPEARS IN APPENDIX
ONE, BUT YOUR GRAPHS ONLY GRAPH ONES THAT ARE---
A. NO, THE DATA APPEARS IN THAT FIGURE AND IN
APPENDIX ONE. INSTEAD OF JUST -- SEE, THE
REVIEWERS WANTED TO SEE WHAT THE PROFILES LOOKED
LIKE---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---SO, I PICKED OUT EIGHT OF THEM AND GRAPHED
THEM AND SHOWED THEM. THE OTHER ONES, I JUST LEFT
IN APPENDIX ONE, RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, GIVE THEM
EIGHTEEN FIGURES SHOWING CESIUM PROFILES. BECAUSE
THEY PROBABLY WOULD NOT -- YOU KNOW, IT TAKES UP A
LOT OF SPACE IN THE TEXT, AND FIGURES ARE MORE
EXPENSIVE TO WORK UP AND, YOU KNOW, THEY JUST
COST -- IT INCREASES THE COST OF THE PAPER IN
TERMS OF PAGE CHARGES.
Q. OKAY. IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THESE GRAPHS THAT
YOU DID FOR THE EIGHT, THEY DON'T LOOK THAT
SIMILAR, AT LEAST TO A LAYMAN. OR CERTAINLY THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 234
TWO FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, UNENRICHED, DO
NOT LOOK THAT SIMILAR, WOULD YOU AGREE?
A. YEAH, I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.
Q. OKAY. HOW DID YOU HANDLE THESE DIFFERENCES?
A. I BASICALLY JUST AVERAGED. SINCE I TOOK MORE THAN
ONE CORE AT EACH SITE, I REFERRED TO THE DATA
PRIMARILY AS THE AVERAGE FOR EACH SITE, BE IT THE
MEAN OF TWO CORES OR THE MEAN OF THREE CORES.
Q. YOU DID NOT HANDLE THEM IN SOME STATISTICALLY
SIGNIFICANT WAY?
A. NO. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ENOUGH DATA POINTS TO
REALLY ANALYZE STATISTICALLY. WITH A MEAN OF TWO
YOU HAVE ONE DEGREE OF FREEDOM.
Q. OKAY.
A. IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A WHOLE LOT LEFT TO WORK
WITH.
Q. SO, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH DATA FOR STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS, IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. YEAH, I WOULD SAY SO.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LOOKING AT THE SECOND PAGE OF
APPENDIX ONE, WHICH IS IN THE FRONT OF THAT
COMPOSITE EXHIBIT, YOU HAVE A COUNTING ERROR,
LET'S SAY UNDER ALLIGATOR ALLEY NUMBER TWO.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 235
Q. COUNTING ERROR OF .25. DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU
COULD ADD OR SUBTRACT .25 TO YOUR PEAK, WHICH WAS
AT 3.92 AND THEN YOUR LINE WOULD GO UP OR DOWN, IS
THAT ACCURATE?
A. IT'S ANALOGOUS, BUT NOT THE EXACT SAME AS A
STANDARD ERROR. IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF -- IT,
YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE THE AVERAGE OR THE COUNT.
THE NUMBER OF PICOCURIES IS 3.92, BUT BASED ON THE
INSTRUMENT IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, .25 LESS THAN
THAT. IT DOESN'T -- YOU CAN'T EXACTLY DRAW THE
LINE, BUT IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF HOW RELIABLE --
OR HOW MUCH VARIATION YOU HAVE.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DIDN'T DO STANDARD ERROR ANALYSIS?
A. THIS IS ANALOGOUS TO A STANDARD ERROR FOR COUNTING
STATISTICS. THIS IS WHAT RADIOCHEMISTS USE. THIS
IS -- IT'S BASED ON THE NUMBER OF CHANNELS THAT
YOU MAKE THE COUNTS IN. BECAUSE YOU DON'T -- WHEN
YOU -- YOU GET A BELL-SHAPED CURVE OF COUNTS, AND
EACH ONE CORRESPONDS TO A CHANNEL; IT'S NOT JUST
ONE CHANNEL. I DON'T KNOW IF I'M MAKING MYSELF
CLEAR, BUT---
Q. I THINK YOU'RE TRYING. I THINK I UNDERSTAND YOUR
ANSWER.
A. I MEAN, IT'S NOT CALCULATED EXACTLY LIKE A
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 236
STANDARD ERROR, BUT IT IS ANALOGOUS TO A STANDARD
ERROR.
Q. OKAY. IS THERE A REASON YOU DIDN'T USE STANDARD
ERROR?
A. NO. THIS IS -- THIS IS WHAT IS TRADITIONALLY --
THIS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS RADIOCHEMISTRY
TYPE WORK DO. THIS IS THE NUMBER.
Q. OH, THIS IS WHAT -- THIS IS -- YOU SAY THE
COUNTING ERROR IS WHAT PEOPLE WHO USE CESIUM---
A. YEAH, OR---
Q. ---DATA WOULD USE?
A. YEAH, OR ANY OF THIS RADIOCHEMISTRY TYPE STUFF;
LEAD 210, YOU COULD CALCULATE A COUNTING ERROR FOR
IT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LOOKING AT RESULTS AND
DISCUSSION ON PAGE 9, YOU INDICATE THE NUMBER OF
CORES THAT YOU PULLED, AND I THINK YOU'VE
INDICATED THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH TO DO STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS. DO YOU THINK THIS IS AN ADEQUATE SAMPLE
SIZE TO DRAW THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU'VE ACTUALLY
DRAWN?
A. I THINK SO. AND APPARENTLY THE REVIEWERS THINK SO
TOO, SINCE IT HAS BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE JOURNAL OF
ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 237
Q. DID ANYONE QUESTION THE SAMPLE SIZE, DR. CRAFT?
A. NO. THAT -- THEY QUESTIONED SOME THINGS, BUT THAT
DIDN'T HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THEM.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU TALK ABOUT TAILING, WOULD
YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT TAILING IS?
A. THAT IS WHERE YOU SEE A -- WELL, LET'S LOOK AT
MAYBE THAT FIGURE TWO, THAT MIGHT SHOW A GOOD
EXAMPLE OF TAILING. IN FACT, I MIGHT -- IF YOU
LOOK AT THE FIGURE WITH THE CESIUM PROFILES, AN
EXAMPLE OF WHAT I WOULD CALL TAILING IS THAT --
IT'S A SECOND -- IT'S IN THE SECOND COLUMN DOWN
AND THE ONE ON THE RIGHT.
Q. OKAY.
A. WHERE YOU SEE CESIUM ALL THE WAY DOWN AT
TWENTY-FOUR CENTIMETERS BELOW THE SURFACE.
Q. INSTEAD OF, LIKE, IN THE LEFT COLUMN THREE DOWN
WHERE IT STARTS TO HUG THE LEFT?
A. YEAH, OR ANY -- OR THE ONE IN THE SECOND COLUMN.
BUT THE ONE TO THE LEFT YOU DON'T REALLY SEE --
YOU SEE SOME TAILING, BUT NOT LIKE IN THE ONE I'M
REFERRING TO, 2A UNENRICHED NUMBER TWO.
Q. OKAY. WHY IS THERE TAILING?
A. THAT JUST MEANS THAT CESIUM -- AND CESIUM IS NOT
HELD. IT IS HELD TO SOME EXTENT BY THE SOIL, BUT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 238
IT'S NOT HELD A HUNDRED PERCENT. AND THIS IS WHY
YOU SEE SOME CESIUM AT DEPTH, WHEN YOU KNOW FOR A
FACT OR YOU'RE PRETTY SURE THAT THERE WAS NO
CESIUM DEPOSITED THERE. CESIUM IS -- CESIUM IS
MOBILE TO SOME EXTENT IN THE SOIL, AND THAT'S WHY
IN SOME---
Q. YOU MEAN IF IT WERE OVERTURNED OR SOMETHING, YOU
COULD -- WE COULD DISTURB THE PROFILE, OR WHAT DO
YOU MEAN?
A. I MEAN THAT CESIUM IS A CATION, IT'S POSITIVELY
CHARGED.
Q. RIGHT.
A. SO, IT IS SORBED -- OR ADSORBED ON THE NEGATIVELY
CHARGED SITES. AND IF YOU HAVE A LOT OF
NEGATIVELY CHARGED SITES, OR -- IT WILL BE HELD
VERY TIGHTLY.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. OR LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE DEALING WITH
LIKE A METAL CATION THAT HAS A TRIVALENT CHARGE,
IT WILL BE HELD VERY, VERY TIGHT. CESIUM JUST HAS
A PLUS ONE CHARGE, AND FOR THIS REASON IT'S NOT
HELD AS TIGHT AS A METAL, LIKE LEAD OR CALCIUM OR
MAGNESIUM. AND SO THIS TAILING OCCURS, AND IT'S
REALLY SEEN PRETTY COMMONLY IN MOST STUDIES THAT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 239
HAVE USED THE CESIUM TECHNIQUE.
Q. OKAY. IF YOU SEE TOO MUCH TAILING, DOES THAT SORT
OF INVALIDATE YOUR USE OF THE CESIUM OR NOT?
A. NO, NO, IT DOESN'T INVALIDATE IT, BUT IT JUST
TELLS YOU THAT IT'S NOT HELD AS TIGHTLY AS YOU
MIGHT HOPE.
Q. OKAY. I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE EFFECT OF
FIRE ON YOUR CESIUM MARKER -- OR ON YOUR CESIUM
PEAK. WHAT IS THAT EFFECT?
A. I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE EXTENT OF THE BURN. A
VERY -- A SURFACE BURN THAT DOESN'T BURN THE PEAT,
YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT SEE ANY EFFECT ON THE CESIUM
PROFILE. BUT IF IT -- OBVIOUSLY, IF THE FIRE
BURNS A FOOT OF PEAT, THEN THE CESIUM PROFILE
THAT'S IN THAT ONE FOOT, THE PEAK IS GOING TO MOVE
DOWN INTO THE ASH LAYER. BUT THAT WOULD BE TRUE
OF ANYTHING, LEAD, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING IF YOU HAD A
BURN LIKE THAT.
Q. LEAD, OR THE POLLEN, ANY OF YOUR MARKERS?
A. YEAH, THE POLLEN, TOO, SURE.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHERE YOU DID NOT -- YOU SAID
THERE WAS ONE CORE SAMPLE WHERE YOU DID NOT FIND
CESIUM BELOW THE SURFACE, WERE YOU ABLE TO
CORRELATE THAT TO A BURN?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 240
A. WE KIND OF LOOKED INTO IT, BUT WE COULDN'T REALLY
RELATE IT TO ANYTHING. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THAT
SITE IS JUST LOCATED IN AN AREA THAT HAS BEEN
DRIER, AND THUS HAS NOT HAD ANY SIGNIFICANT
ACCRETION, OR IT COULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO SOME
KIND OF A BURN. THAT CORE HAS BEEN THE TOPIC OF A
LOT OF DISCUSSION.
Q. WELL---
A. BUT I STILL INCLUDE IT IN THE PAPER---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A REAL PHENOMENA THERE
THAT WE SEE. THAT THE PEAK IS AT THE SURFACE, I
THINK.
Q. YOU CAN'T QUITE ACCOUNT FOR WHY THE PEAK IS AT THE
SURFACE? WHY THERE WAS A LOSS OF---
A. IT COULD BE FIRE, OR IT COULD BE THAT SITE JUST
HAS NOT HAD ANY ACCRETION OVER THE PAST
TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, BUT I CAN'T -- I DON'T HAVE ANY
INFORMATION TO PULL THAT OUT.
Q. THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, THERE'S BEEN NO ACCRETION
IN TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, DOES IT?
A. WELL, IF IT'S ON A HIGH SPOT OR A DRY SPOT IN THE
EVERGLADES, IT IS POSSIBLE.
Q. WHAT WOULD BE THE EFFECT OF DROUGHT ON THE CESIUM
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 241
PEAK?
A. THE PEAK WOULDN'T CHANGE, BUT YOU WOULDN'T GET ANY
ACCRETION IF YOU HAD A DROUGHT. OR IF YOU HAD
SOME SUBSIDENCE, IT COULD TEND TO BRING THE -- YOU
KNOW, IF YOU HAD OXIDATION OF THE SURFACE PEAK, IT
COULD TEND TO BRING THE PEAK CLOSER TO THE
SURFACE. BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE, YOU KNOW,
THIS QUESTION OF FIRE, I JUST DON'T KNOW THE ROLE
AND HOW IT AFFECTS THE LOCATION OF THE PEAK.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE ROLE OF OXIDATION ON
THE PEAT ACCRETION THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES?
A. NO, THAT'S ANOTHER THING, AND THAT'S WHERE GOOD
HYDROLOGY DATA WOULD, I THINK, HELP PROVIDE SOME
INFORMATION ON THAT.
Q. OKAY. BUT, AT PRESENT, THE WAY YOU'RE GOING ABOUT
THE HYDROLOGY DATA IS TO LOOK AT THE POLLEN
MARKINGS?
A. WELL, TO TRY TO. I MEAN, THERE'S NO GUARANTEE
THAT IT WILL PROVIDE ANY MORE INFORMATION THAN WE
ALREADY HAVE, BUT THAT'S JUST PART OF THE WORK.
YOU DON'T KNOW TILL YOU START LOOKING.
Q. YOU INDICATE THAT CESIUM WAS USED UNSUCCESSFULLY
IN OMBROTROPHIC BOGS WHERE THE PEATS WERE STRONGLY
ACIDIC. IS THAT -- NOW, I'M READING, SO I'M SURE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 242
IT'S ACCURATE.
A. RIGHT. I SEE IT, PAGE 10.
Q. RIGHT, ON PAGE 10. BUT YOU SAY THAT YOUR
EVERGLADES CORES ALSO EXHIBITED SOME MOVEMENT. I
GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS
YOU HAD IN WORKING WITH THE CESIUM?
A. WELL, IN THE EVERGLADES NOT REALLY. I THINK IT
WORKS REALLY PRETTY WELL IN THE EVERGLADES, WHICH
IS, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF -- THE PROBLEM IS THAT
CESIUM HAS BEEN TRIED IN NORTHERN PEATLANDS, IN
CANADA AND MINNESOTA, AND IT HAS NOT -- THEY HAVE
NOT HAD SUCCESS WITH IT.
Q. BECAUSE OF ACIDIC SOILS?
A. THAT'S MY THEORY. THAT'S WHY, I THINK. BECAUSE
THERE CESIUM IN AN ACIDIC SOIL IS COMPETING WITH
ALUMINUM, WHICH IS TRIVALENT AND IS HELD VERY
TIGHTLY. WHEREAS, IN THE EVERGLADES THERE IS VERY
LITTLE ALUMINUM. CESIUM WOULD BE COMPETING WITH
CALCIUM WHICH IS DIVALENT, AND WOULD ALSO BE
COMPETING WITH THINGS LIKE POTASSIUM AND SODIUM.
Q. WHY HAVEN'T YOU TAKEN ANY CORES AT THE 217 GAUGE
IN 2A, WHERE THERE IS SOME PRETTY GOOD HYDROLIC --
HYDROLOGIC DATA?
A. I'VE NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED IT. I JUST HAVEN'T
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 243
THOUGHT ABOUT IT.
Q. OKAY.
A. IT MIGHT BE A GOOD THING TO DO FOR SOMEBODY,
THOUGH.
Q. OVER ON PAGE 12, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
THERMOFACTORS, NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, HIGHER NET
PRIMARY PRODUCTION OF CATTAIL AS COMPARED TO
SAWGRASS. AN INCREASED HYDROPERIOD MAY EXPLAIN
THE HIGHER ACCRETION RATE AT THE ENRICHED SITE.
GIVEN THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WETLANDS, WHAT IS
THE MECHANISM THAT HYDROPERIOD AFFECTS PEAT
ACCRETION?
A. HOW DOES HYDROPERIOD AFFECT ACCRETION?
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. OKAY. AS AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU GO OUT HERE IN THE
FRONT YARD WHERE THE FESCUE IS GROWING, THERE IS
NO HYDROPERIOD THERE; IT'S AN UPLAND AREA. AND
BECAUSE IT'S VERY SELDOM WET, EXCEPT DURING A RAIN
OR AFTERWARDS, YOU DON'T ANY KIND OF PEAT
ACCUMULATION. PEAT ONLY FORMS IN THESE
DEPOSITIONAL AREAS THAT ARE WET MOST, IF NOT ALL,
OF THE TIME. SO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THIS WETNESS
FACTOR TO GET PEAT TO BUILD UP.
Q. OKAY. BUT THAT'S A WETLAND. WE'RE IN A WETLAND.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 244
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT---
A. BUT I'M SAYING -- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A WETLAND
THAT'S ONLY WET THREE MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR, IT
WOULD QUALIFY AS A WETLAND. YOU PROBABLY WOULD
NOT HAVE SIGNIFICANT PEAT ACCUMULATION. NO, IF
IT'S WET DURING THE GROWING SEASON, IT WOULD BE A
WETLAND. BUT IF YOU HAVE A WETLAND THAT'S WET
NINE TO TWELVE MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR, YOU WOULD
MORE THAN LIKELY HAVE PEAT STARTING TO BUILDUP.
IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE PLANT SPECIES, TOO, THOUGH.
Q. YOU'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THINGS GROW MORE IF THEY
GET ENOUGH WATER AND FERTILIZER?
A. NO, IT'S THE -- IT'S THAT THE DECOMPOSITION IS
SLOWED BY THE WETLANDS.
Q. OKAY. FURTHER ON DOWN YOU SAY THAT THESE LARGE
ADDITIONS OF NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS MAY INCREASE
NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY. ARE YOU WITH ME?
A. WHAT LINE? NO, I'M NOT WITH YOU. OH, I SEE IT
NOW.
Q. FOURTEEN, FIFTEEN.
A. OKAY.
Q. OF EMERGENT VEGETATION, THEREBY INCREASING THE
AMOUNT OF DETRITUS POTENTIALLY AVAILABLE AS PEAT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 245
THIS NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS POTENTIALLY
INCREASING NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY OF EMERGENT
VEGETATION, IS THIS COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS
EUTROPHICATION?
A. IT COULD BE, BUT I DON'T THINK IT ALWAYS WOULD BE
SO. WELL, LARGE ADDITIONS MIGHT IMPLY
EUTROPHICATION, THAT'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT I'M
IMPLYING HERE, THOUGH.
Q. NOT EXACTLY?
A. OR -- NO, I'M NOT REALLY NECESSARILY THINKING
ABOUT THE IDEA OF EUTROPHICATION. I'M THINKING OF
A FERTILIZER EFFECT, ADDING A LIMITING NUTRIENT
AND STIMULATING GROWTH.
Q. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE EUTROPHICATION AT THE UPPER
END OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. I WOULD SAY IT'S NUTRIENT ENRICHED; THERE'S NO
QUESTION OF THAT.
Q. AND DO YOU EQUATE NUTRIENT ENRICHED WITH
EUTROPHICATION?
A. WELL, I'D HAVE TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF
EUTROPHICATION TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. I MEAN, I
THINK I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS, BUT I'M NOT READY JUST
TO COME OUT AND SAY THAT THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Q. WELL, THE TITLE OF CRAFT NUMBER SIXTEEN IS "PEAT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 246
ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION ALONG A
EUTROPHICATION GRADIENT IN THE NORTHERN
EVERGLADES."
A. WELL, I GUESS THERE I AM REFERRING TO
EUTROPHICATION, SO.
Q. SO, WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
A. I GUESS NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, EUTROPHICATION,
PROBABLY MEAN AT LEAST HERE, THE SAME -- I'M USING
THEM TO MEAN THE SAME THING.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND, IN GENERAL, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE
HAPPENS TO AN ECOSYSTEM WHEN YOU ADD FERTILIZER?
A. YOU GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH, AMONG OTHER THINGS.
Q. WITH OR WITHOUT HYDROPERIODS?
A. YEAH, YOU WOULD GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH WITH OR
WITHOUT HYDROPERIOD.
Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER THINGS CHANGE?
A. REPHRASE THE QUESTION OR BE MORE SPECIFIC.
Q. WOULD OTHER THINGS CHANGE WHEN YOU ADD FERTILIZER
TO A SYSTEM?
A. YOU MAY SEE CHANGES IN COMMUNITY COMPOSITION,
CHANGES IN PLANT COMMUNITIES, AND THAT SORT OF
THING.
Q. AT THE VARIOUS LEVELS---
A. RIGHT. RIGHT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 247
Q. ---MICROBIAL, PERIPHYTON---
A. SURE.
Q. ---MACROPHYTES, ETCETERA. OKAY. AT THE BOTTOM OF
THE PAGE, YOU INDICATE THAT INCREASED HYDROPERIOD
ALSO MAY ENHANCE PEAT ACCUMULATION BY REDUCING
AEROBIC DECOMPOSITION. WHAT ABOUT INCREASED
ANAEROBIC DECOMPOSITION, WHAT HAPPENS THERE?
A. WELL, YOU MAY SEE AN INCREASE ANAEROBIC
DECOMPOSITION, BUT AEROBIC DECOMPOSITION IS MUCH
MORE EFFICIENT, AND YOU GET GREATER DECOMPOSITION
UNDER AEROBIC CONDITIONS GENERALLY THAN UNDER
ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS. IT'S A MORE ENERGY
EFFICIENT PROCESS.
Q. WHAT IS THE ROLE OF METHANE IN CARBON CYCLING IN
MOST WETLANDS?
A. IT'S ONE OF THOSE -- IT INDICATES HIGHLY REDUCED
CONDITIONS IS WHEN YOU START TO SEE METHANE
PRODUCTION.
Q. YOU TALK AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 12 AND AT THE
BEGINNING OF 13 THAT THE NUTRIENT ENRICHED SITE --
I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 2A, AREN'T WE --
YEAH---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---2A RECEIVES AN AVERAGE -- AND YOU GIVE THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 248
FIGURE OF WATER EACH YEAR -- AND THUS, TENDS TO BE
WETTER THAN THE UNENRICHED SITE IN THE INTERIOR OF
2A. HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR DR. RADER'S REFLECTION
IN HIS WORK THAT THAT AREA GOES DRY THREE TO SIX
WEEKS, WHILE THE UNENRICHED SITES FURTHER DOWN
STAY WET? ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT I'M TALKING
ABOUT?
A. NOT REALLY, BUT -- BUT MY UNENRICHED LOCATIONS ARE
NOT THE SAME AS HIS UNENRICHED LOCATIONS.
Q. OKAY. YOUR UNENRICHED BEING NEAR THE 217 GAUGE,
AND HIS BEING STRAIGHT DOWN---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---WHAT, ON 10D?
A. RIGHT. MINE ARE MORE TO THE SOUTH AND THE WEST OF
THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND HIS ARE DUE SOUTH.
Q. OKAY. YOUR ENRICHED LOCATION IS THE SAME, THOUGH,
IS IT NOT?
A. IN THE SAME GENERAL AREA, SURE.
Q. OKAY.
A. I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, I STARTED COLLECTING
SAMPLES IN 1989, AND THIS WAS BEFORE DR. RADER
CAME TO WORK, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS---
Q. OKAY. OKAY. SO, THINGS HAVE GONE DRY SINCE THEN
OR WHAT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 249
A. I DON'T KNOW. BUT JUST IF YOU LOOK AT THE
ELEVATION OF THE SOIL SURFACE ON MAPS THERE, OUR
UNENRICHED SITE SITS HIGHER THAN THESE AREAS DUE
SOUTH.
Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU'VE INDICATED AT THE BEGINNING --
IF YOU REMEMBER, WE STARTED AT THE BEGINNING OF
THE DAY, AND I ASKED YOU WHAT YOUR HYDROPERIOD
DATA WAS. AND YOU SAID THAT IT WAS AS REFLECTED
IN THE SWIM PLAN. YOU HAD EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD
VERSUS OVERDRAINED, AND IT WAS SORT OF LIKE A
GROSS---
A. UH-HUH (YES). RIGHT.
Q. ---HYDROPERIOD DATA. NOW, YOU REALLY SEEM TO BE
GOING TO A DIFFERENT TYPE OF HYDROPERIOD
INFORMATION. WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM?
A. AGAIN, THIS IS INFORMATION FROM THE SWIM PLAN.
LET'S SEE WHO I CITE HERE.
Q. YOU CITE THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WATER GOES IN AT
THE TOP, BUT YOU DON'T CITE WHERE YOU FIND THAT
IT'S WETTER THAN YOUR UNENRICHED SITE.
A. ALL I DO IS LOOK AT THIS MAP SHOWING THE ELEVATION
OF THE SURFACE PEAT IN 2A, AND IT SHOWS THAT AREA
TO THE SOUTH AND WEST BEING ONE FOOT, OR MAYBE A
LITTLE BIT MORE, HIGHER THAN THOSE AREAS DUE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 250
SOUTH.
Q. OKAY. YOU HAVE A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP?
A. IT WAS A FIGURE OUT OF THE SWIM PLAN. I'D HAVE TO
GO BACK AND SEE IF I COULD FIND---
Q. BUT YOU LOOKED AT A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP OF 2A, AND
THEN YOU INFERRED THAT IT WOULD BE---
A. RIGHT, I INFERRED, CERTAINLY.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU CORROBORATE THAT FROM WATER LEVELS,
OR SOMETHING WITHIN THERE?
A. NO, NOPE.
Q. YOU JUST LOOKED AT THE TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP AND
DECIDED THAT ONE AREA WAS WETTER THAN THE OTHER?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. GOING DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF 13, YOU
INDICATE THAT, "PEAT ACCRETION IS GREATEST IN
AREAS THAT ARE EXPOSED TO EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD
(12A, 12C AND/OR NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT) WATER
CONSERVATION 2A ENRICHED." WHICH APPEARS TO BE
MORE CONTROLLING, DR. CRAFT?
A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. IF I KNEW THE ANSWER TO
THAT, I'D PROBABLY BE A WEALTHY GUY, AND THE
PROBLEM WOULD BE RESOLVED, BUT---
Q. DON'T COUNT ON IT.
A. ---I MIGHT NOT BE WEALTHY, BUT THE PROBLEM MIGHT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 251
BE CLOSER TO BEING RESOLVED.
Q. YOU HAVE NOT IN YOUR OWN MIND MADE SOME VALUE
JUDGMENT AS TO WHICH IS CONTRIBUTING MORE TO PEAT
ACCRETION?
A. NO, NO. I THINK THEY BOTH PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT
ROLE, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK SOMEBODY SHOULD BE
DOING WORK TO TRY TO SEPARATE THOSE OUT.
Q. BUT THEY'RE NOT?
A. I DON'T KNOW. AS FAR AS I KNOW, YOU KNOW, I'M
NOT; I DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE.
Q. OKAY. AT THE TOP OF 14, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
THESE SOIL ELEVATIONS, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
TOPOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION YOU FOUND IN THE SWIM
PLAN?
A. YES. ACTUALLY I'M TALKING -- I CITE WORTH AND A
PAPER BY WALTERS, ET AL.
Q. BUT ARE THOSE SITES THAT WERE IN THE SWIM PLAN, OR
DID YOU GO TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FOR YOUR---
A. WORTH IS A DISTRICT TECHNICAL REPORT, AND WALTERS
IS A PAPER THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN ECOLOGICAL
APPLICATIONS THIS YEAR.
Q. BUT YOU MADE YOUR ASSUMPTIONS BASED UPON THE
TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP, IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. WELL, AND ALSO THESE TWO.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 252
Q. YOU FORGOT THEM?
A. RIGHT. SURE. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT I
HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THIS PAPER IN THREE OR FOUR
MONTHS, SO.
Q. YOU DIDN'T REVIEW YOUR PAPER BEFORE COMING TODAY?
A. NO, I HAVE TOO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO, AND THIS
IS NOT THE HIGHEST OF MY PRIORITIES.
Q. DO YOU THINK THAT PHOSPHORUS CAN ACCELERATE PEAT
ACCRETION IN AN AREA OF STABLE HYDROPERIOD?
A. WE'RE REFERRING TO THE EVERGLADES?
Q. YES.
A. I THINK SO. I THINK IT PROBABLY CAN.
Q. OKAY. THAT BEING SO, THEN WHY WOULDN'T YOU THINK
THAT PHOSPHORUS WOULD BE THE MORE CONTRIBUTING
FACTOR?
A. WELL, I THINK THAT IF YOU ENHANCED -- UNDER LEVEL
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS, YOU COULD ENHANCE PEAT
ACCRETION BY INCREASING HYDROPERIOD, TOO, THOUGH.
Q. DO YOU REALLY? IF YOU HAD THE SAME LEVEL OF
PHOSPHORUS COMING IN AND YOU INCREASE THE WATER,
YOU THINK THAT YOU WOULD AUTOMATICALLY INCREASE
THE PEAT ACCRETION?
A. I THINK YOU COULD, YEAH.
Q. COULD OR WOULD?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 253
A. I THINK YOU COULD.
Q. DO YOU THINK IF YOU HAD STABLE HYDROPERIOD AND YOU
ADDED INCREASED PHOSPHORUS, WOULD YOU INCREASE THE
PEAT ACCRETION -- ACCELERATE IT?
A. DIDN'T YOU JUST ASK ME THIS QUESTION, AND I
SAID---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---YES.
Q. BUT WOULD YOU?
A. I THINK YOU COULD.
Q. BUT YOU AREN'T MORE CERTAIN ABOUT THAT ONE?
A. I'VE SAID IT FIVE OR SIX TIMES.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THE WITNESS HAS
ANSWERED THE QUESTION THREE OR FOUR TIMES.
LET'S MOVE ON.
WITNESS: THANK YOU, RALPH.
MS. PONZOLI: I'VE BEEN VERY COURTEOUS,
MR. McCAUGHAN.
MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M JUST -- I'M --
HE'S ANSWERED IT, AND HE'S ANSWERED IT, AND
YOU KEEP ASKING AND ASKING.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK---
MR. McCAUGHAN: SO, ALL I'M SAYING IS
LET'S MOVE ON---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 254
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK IT'S A
VERY---
MR. McCAUGHAN: ---IF WE'RE EVER GOING
TO FINISH THIS.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, WE'RE GOING TO
FINISH TOMORROW, WE'RE NOT GOING TO FINISH
TODAY. AND, YOU KNOW, IT JUST GETS SLOWER
WHEN IT GETS DIFFICULT.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OVER ON 16, DR. CRAFT, YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT NITROGEN REMOVAL OR NITROGEN
RETAINED IN THE MARSH, AND YOU SAY, IN CONTRAST
SEVENTY-EIGHT PERCENT OF THE PHOSPHORUS ENTERING
WATER CONSERVATION 2A IS REMOVED BY THIS
IMPOUNDMENT. WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER AN IMPOUNDMENT,
DR. CRAFT?
A. I WOULD CONSIDER CONSERVATION AREA 2A AN
IMPOUNDMENT.
Q. IS IT A TYPICAL IMPOUNDMENT?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT A TYPICAL IMPOUNDMENT IS. IT
HAS BEEN DIKED; IT HAS SIDES; IT HAS CANALS AROUND
THE PERIMETER.
Q. ALL RIGHT. IT HAS WATER COMING IN AND WATER GOING
OUT---
A. RIGHT. BUT---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 255
Q. ---IS THAT RIGHT?
A. ---BUT IT'S NOT FREELY MOVING AS IT PROBABLY -- AS
IT ONCE WAS.
Q. AND SO WHEN SOMETHING IS NOT FREELY MOVING THAT
MAKES IT AN IMPOUNDMENT?
A. I -- THAT'S MY VIEW OF IT, YES.
Q. OKAY. ON PAGE 17 WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
RETENTION OF PHOSPHORUS IN EVERGLADES SURFACE
SOILS. IT SUGGESTS THAT PHOSPHORUS IS EFFICIENTLY
RECYCLED, A TREND OFTEN FOUND IN ECOSYSTEMS WHERE
PHOSPHORUS MAY LIMIT PRODUCTIVITY. DOES THIS
SUGGEST THAT PHOSPHORUS IS A LIMITING FACTOR IN
THIS SYSTEM?
A. WELL, IT CERTAINLY SUGGESTS IT, YES.
Q. OKAY. AT THE BOTTOM YOU'RE COMPARING, "EVERGLADES
SOILS ARE SEQUESTERING ORGANIC CARBON AT RATES
THAT ARE HIGHER THAN PEATLANDS IN COOLER CLIMATES,
AND SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN PEATLANDS IN WARM, HIGHLY
PRODUCTIVE ENVIRONMENTS." CAN YOU REALLY COMPARE
THESE WETLANDS -- THESE EVERGLADES WETLANDS WITH
TEMPERATE WETLANDS?
A. WELL, YOU CAN COMPARE THEM IN THE CONTEXT OF THE
ROLE OF WETLANDS WORLDWIDE IN CARBON STORAGE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT pH?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 256
A. WHAT ABOUT pH?
Q. WAS pH THE SAME IN BOTH OF THEM, IN THE TEMPERATE?
A. I DON'T KNOW THE -- THAT I DON'T KNOW. THAT WOULD
DEPEND ON THE WETLANDS. CERTAINLY MICHIGAN HAS
SOME CIRCUMNEUTRAL pH WETLANDS, AND I'M SURE THERE
ARE OTHER ONES WORLDWIDE.
Q. OKAY. DO MOST TROPICAL AND SUBTROPICAL SYSTEMS
ACCUMULATE CARBON?
A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T WORKED MUCH
IN THOSE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER WETLANDS SYSTEMS HAVE YOU WORKED
IN?
A. SALT WATER MARSHES, BRACKISH WATER MARSHES, AND
FRESHWATER MARSHES.
Q. WHERE?
A. NORTH CAROLINA.
Q. ALL IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. OKAY. AND HOW WOULD YOU CATEGORIZE THOSE WETLANDS
VERSUS THE EVERGLADES?
A. SOME OF THEM ARE PEAT-BASED, AND I SEE SOME
SIMILARITIES. AND THEN SOME OF THEM ARE NOT
PEAT-BASED, AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE AS
COMPARABLE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 257
Q. WHAT ABOUT THE CLIMATE?
A. IT'S A LITTLE BIT COOLER, BUT, AGAIN, MY INTEREST
IS NOT SO MUCH IN COMPARING WETLANDS IN NORTH
CAROLINA AND FLORIDA, BUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND
JUST HOW WETLANDS SEQUESTER MATERIALS IN A GENERAL
SORT OF WAY.
Q. ON 18 YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NITROGEN FIXATION BY
PERIPHYTON MAY ACCOUNT FOR THE ADDITIONAL
AMOUNT -- I'M NOT GOING TO READ THE NUMBER -- THAT
ACCUMULATES ANNUALLY IN INTERIOR LOCATIONS.
MR. BURGESS: COULD YOU JUST GIVE
THE LINE NUMBER ON THAT?
MS. PONZOLI: OH, I'M SORRY, SURE.
THIRTEEN, FOURTEEN AND FIFTEEN.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO EVERGLADES PERIPHYTON
ACTUALLY FIX NITROGEN?
A. I DON'T KNOW; I'VE NEVER MEASURED IT, BUT I WOULD
THINK THERE ARE A LOT BLUE-GREEN ALGAE, AND I
WOULD THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME NITROGEN FIXERS IN
THERE.
Q. YOU COULDN'T GIVE ME ANY RATES?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY.
A. NOW, RON HERE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU SOME
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 258
RATES.
Q. HIS DEPO'S NOT BEING TAKEN, YET. ALL RIGHT.
THERE'S A CONCEPT ON 19, ON LINES NINE THROUGH
SIXTEEN, THAT I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT. YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT, "THE ENRICHED AREA RECEIVING SIX
TIMES AS MUCH PHOSPHORUS AND EIGHT TIMES AS MUCH
NITROGEN AS THE UNENRICHED AREA. AND AS A RESULT
THE EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL AT THE
ENRICHED LOCATION WAS LESS, AS COMPARED TO THE
UNENRICHED, SUGGESTING THAT THE ENRICHED AREA MAY
BE APPROACHING SATURATION WITH RESPECT TO
PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION." WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
SATURATION?
A. THAT IT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO STORE ANY MORE ON A PER
ANNUAL BASIS. THAT IT MAY HAVE REACHED SOME SORT
OF, YOU KNOW, CRITICAL ACCUMULATION RATE. WHEREAS
IF YOU ADD MORE TO THE SYSTEM THAN THAT AMOUNT, IT
WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STORE IT.
Q. AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN?
A. IT WILL PROBABLY MOVE ON DOWNSTREAM.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW CLOSE TO A SATURATION
THAT AREA IS?
A. NO. AGAIN, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE VERY
USEFUL INFORMATION, I THINK.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 259
Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S AT
SATURATION?
A. I'M REALLY NOT SURE HOW TO DO THAT.
Q. DO YOU JUST MONITOR TO SEE IF IT'S MOVING
DOWNSTREAM?
A. SURE, THAT'S ONE WAY TO DO IT.
Q. AND YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE FRONT IS --
THEORETICAL FRONT IS MOVING?
A. AND SET UP PERMANENT PLOTS AND SEE HOW THE
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION CHANGES OVER TIME AND THE
SURFACE WATER.
Q. OKAY. YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE AT THE
UNENRICHED SITE A HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND
THIRTY-THREE PERCENT EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS
REMOVAL.
A. I SEE IT.
Q. OKAY. HOW DO YOU GET A HUNDRED AND THIRTY-THREE
PERCENT EFFICIENCY?
A. WELL, I HAVE TO GO TO TABLE 3 AND SEE WHAT THE
NUMBERS COME OUT TO BE. WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE
INPUT RATE, WHICH IS -- ARE WE TALKING THE
UNENRICHED AREA -- .06 GRAMS P PER METER SQUARED
PER YEAR, WHICH WE ASSUME IS COMING IN IN
RAINFALL, AND THE ACCUMULATION RATE IS .06 TO .08.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 260
SO, YOU JUST DIVIDE THOSE AND YOU COME UP WITH ONE
HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND THIRTY-THREE PERCENT.
BUT AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THIS IS SORT OF
WITHIN THE REALM OF WHAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT IN
SCIENCE. A RANGE OF -- IT'S PRETTY GOOD
AGREEMENT, I WOULD SAY.
Q. I'M NOT A SCIENTIST, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE YOU MIGHT
HAVE A THIRTY-THREE PERCENT ERROR THERE.
A. OH, CERTAINLY. WELL, MAYBE THE RAINFALL
INPUT'S -- YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT'S .07 OR .08. WE
MAY BE OFF A LITTLE BIT ON OUR ACCUMULATION RATE
DATA. BUT, AGAIN, THIS PAPER HAS BEEN ACCEPTED BY
A JOURNAL, AND THE REVIEWERS HAVE SEEN IT, AND
THEY MUST -- THEY'VE DONE THIS SORT OF WORK, I
PRESUME, AND IT'S NOT -- AGAIN, IT'S IN THE
BALLPARK.
Q. OKAY. SO, THOSE ARE THE TWO VARIABLES THAT YOU
THINK MIGHT BE OFF, THE ACCUMULATION RATE OR THE
RAINFALL?
A. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE OFF. THEY DON'T MATCH UP
A HUNDRED PERCENT. BUT IN -- IT'S AN IMPERFECT
WORLD, AND THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS YOU FIND.
Q. PAGE 21, LINES 13, 14, 15, "THE LOW RATES OF
PHOSPHORUS STORAGE IN UNENRICHED EVERGLADES SOIL
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 261
PROBABLY REFLECT THE HISTORICALLY LOW INPUTS OF
PHOSPHORUS TO THIS SYSTEM." HOW DO YOU DEFINE A
LOW INPUT, DR. CRAFT?
A. I DON'T KNOW HOW I DEFINE IT. HERE I DEFINE IT AS
AROUND THAT -- PROBABLY LESS THAN A TENTH OF GRAM
PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR, SINCE THE NUMBERS ARE
.06 TO .08.
Q. OKAY.
A. AGAIN, THESE ARE BALLPARK KINDS OF NUMBERS.
Q. PAGE 22, "ECOLOGICAL APPLICATION," YOU INDICATE,
"THE NUTRIENT ENRICHED AREA HAS FUNCTIONED
EFFECTIVELY" -- LINES 9 AND 10 -- "AS A PHOSPHORUS
SINK FOR THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS." AND YOU'VE
ALSO INDICATED, "THAT IT MAY BE REACHING
SATURATION." THEN YOU GO ON TO TALK ABOUT HOW
MUCH WOULD BE NEEDED IF WE WERE TO BUILD A
FLOW-THROUGH OR AN STA. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
BY A FLOW-THROUGH -- A FLOWWAY---
A. SURE.
Q. ---OR AN STA?
A. RIGHT. SURE.
Q. TO HANDLE THE -- WHAT DO YOU HAVE HERE, FORTY-FIVE
METRIC TONS? I THINK WE HAD SAID BEFORE IT WAS
FIFTY-FOUR METRIC TONS, HADN'T WE---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 262
A. I DON'T---
Q. ---COMING INTO WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. I DON'T SEE THE NUMBER YOU'RE REFERRING TO.
MR. BURGESS: TWENTY-ONE.
MR. RICHARDSON: TWENTY-ONE.
Q. TWENTY-ONE, LINE TWENTY-ONE.
A. WELL, THAT'S IF BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES CAN
REDUCE---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---THE INPUT BY FORTY-FIVE METRIC TONS.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOUR ASSUMPTIONS HAVE BEEN MADE
BASED ON WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, IS THAT
ACCURATE?
A. SURE.
Q. OKAY. IS WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A MANAGED FOR
NUTRIENTS?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I THINK -- MY UNDERSTANDING
IS IT'S MANAGED FOR WATER SUPPLY AND FLOOD
CONTROL, IS MY UNDERSTANDING.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WERE TO MANAGE AN STA OR
A FLOWWAY SYSTEM, COULDN'T IT BE SIZED DOWN?
A. YEAH, CONCEIVABLY. IF YOU IMPLEMENTED THE RIGHT
MANAGEMENT PRACTICES, YOU COULD -- THE ACREAGE
COULD CHANGE, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 263
Q. OKAY. SO, YOUR LARGER ACREAGE -- JUST SO WE'RE
BOTH CLEAR WITH ONE ANOTHER -- YOUR LARGER ACREAGE
IS BASED UPON AN UNMANAGED SYSTEM COMPARABLE TO
2A?
A. RIGHT. IF THEY WANT TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS AS --
THROUGH PEAT ACCUMULATION UNDER THESE KIND OF
CONDITIONS, THIS IS PROBABLY WHAT THEY WOULD SEE.
Q. OKAY. WHEN WE COME TO YOUR CONCLUSIONS YOU
INDICATE THAT DENITRIFICATION MAY BE IMPORTANT IN
REMOVING NITROGEN IN AREAS RECEIVING AGRICULTURAL
DRAINAGE, BUT AT THIS TIME THERE'S NO INFORMATION
TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS. COULD YOU DO A SIMPLE MASS
BALANCE CALCULATION TO DO THAT?
A. I DON'T THINK IT -- I THINK WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS
TO GO OUT AND MEASURE DENITRIFICATION.
Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT?
A. WELL, I THINK -- AGAIN, I'M NOT AN EXPERT AT THIS;
I'M NOT SURE IF THERE'S SOME SORT OF ACETYLENE
REDUCTION TECHNIQUE OR SOMETHING. I REALLY DON'T
KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT DENITRIFICATION TO GO OUT AND
MEASURE IT.
Q. OKAY. IF WE TAKE YOUR STATEMENT ON PAGE 23,
EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN AND TWENTY, "THAT REDUCED
HYDROPERIOD IN INTERIOR PARTS OF 2A AND 3A AND THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 264
NORTHERN PART OF 3A HAVE GENERALLY RESULTED IN
REDUCED RATES OF PEAT ACCRETION," CAN WE SAY THE
CONVERSE?
MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M SORRY, SUZAN,
EXCUSE ME. WHAT LINE?
MS. PONZOLI: EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN AND
TWENTY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY, THANKS.
MS. PONZOLI: ON PAGE 23.
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY, THANKS.
A. THAT ENHANCED HYDROPERIOD---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---COULD INCREASE?
Q. RIGHT.
A. YEAH, I THINK IT COULD DO THAT.
Q. OKAY. THAT'S YOUR BELIEF IS THAT THAT WOULD
HAPPEN, THAT'S WHAT WE HAD DISCUSSED JUST A LITTLE
WHILE AGO?
A. WELL, I THINK IT COULD HAPPEN, BUT I THINK YOU CAN
ALSO ADD TOO MUCH WATER AND KILL THE PLANTS---
Q. SURE.
A. ---AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. AND, AGAIN, THIS
IS -- I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT COULD BE
DONE RELATING TO THIS QUESTION.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 265
Q. DR. CRAFT, I'D LIKE TO MOVE ONTO EXHIBIT NUMBER
SIXTEEN. DO YOU HAVE A MORE RECENT DRAFT OF THIS,
THAN SIXTEEN?
A. YOU-ALL HAVE MY LATEST INFORMATION, SO, YEAH.
Q. OKAY.
A. I'D LOVE TO HAVE A MORE RECENT DRAFT, BUT I'M TOO
BUSY DEALING WITH YOU-ALL, I'M AFRAID, AND
TEACHING A CLASS.
MR. McCAUGHAN: SUZAN, IS THAT THE
MOST -- IS THAT THE ONE THAT YOU HAD THE
LIMITED NUMBER---
MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES).
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY.
MS. PONZOLI: BUT I DID PASS OUT
SEVERAL.
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. CRAFT, YOU'VE INDICATED
SEVERAL TIMES THAT WE'RE TAKING UP A LOT OF YOUR
TIME. ARE YOU DOING OTHER THINGS RELATED TO THIS
LITIGATION, OTHER THAN GETTING YOUR DOCUMENTS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 266
TOGETHER AND COMING TO DEPOSITIONS?
A. NO.
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. I JUST WANTED TO BE CLEAR THAT---
A. I MEAN, BUT I'M TEACHING; I SUPERVISE STUDENTS; I
TRY TO DO RESEARCH; AND I HAVE A FAMILY, SO, IT
EATS INTO MY TIME, SO.
Q. I FOUND IN SOME OF YOUR DOCUMENTS SOME MATERIALS
THAT HAD BEEN FORWARDED TO YOU BY A MR. PAUL
LARSON. HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY
MEETINGS WITH MR. LARSON?
A. NO. HE WAS INVOLVED -- THE FIRST DAY ON THE JOB
WE WENT OUT AND TOOK SAMPLES, AND HE WAS WITH US,
AND HE PROVIDED ACTUALLY THE LORAN-C COORDINATES
FOR OUR LOCATIONS.
Q. HAVE YOU MET WITH HIM SINCE THAT TIME?
A. I DON'T THINK SO. I MIGHT HAVE MET HIM AT A
MEETING, BUT -- IN KEY LARGO, BUT I DON'T EXACTLY
REMEMBER, BUT---
Q. WAS THIS AN EVERGLADES COALITION TYPE MEETING?
A. THIS WAS A SYMPOSIUM ON THE EVERGLADES---
Q. OH.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 267
A. ---YOU MAY HAVE BEEN THERE, I DON'T KNOW, SO.
Q. I WAS THERE. SO WERE A LOT OF US.
A. RIGHT. THAT GOES WITHOUT SAYING.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DO YOU TEACH? YOU INDICATED YOU
TEACH.
A. A COURSE IN APPLIED ECOLOGY.
Q. JUST THE ONE COURSE, AND THAT WAS WITH THE SIXTY
SOMETHING STUDENTS?
A. RIGHT AND TWO LABS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT TEXTBOOKS DO YOU USE FOR THE
ECOLOGY COURSE?
A. WE USE THIS BOOK BY WALT WESTMAN, I CAN'T THINK OF
THE EXACT TITLE OF IT.
Q. OKAY.
A. BUT SOMETHING LIKE RESOURCE ECOLOGY AND
MANAGEMENT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT CRAFT
NUMBER SIXTEEN. YOU'RE STILL DEALING WITH THIS
CONCEPT OF PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT
ACCUMULATION, AND IF I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY,
INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH THESE SEVEN SITES THAT
WERE IN FIGURE -- I THINK IT WAS ONE ATTACHED TO
CRAFT NUMBER FIVE, YOU'RE DEALING WITH YOUR
NUTRIENT GRADIENT, IS THAT RIGHT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 268
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU FINDING THE SAME CONCLUSIONS FROM
THAT WORK THAT YOU FOUND IN YOUR OTHER WORK SPREAD
ACROSS THE EVERGLADES?
A. THE SAME GENERAL CONCLUSIONS.
Q. OKAY. AND THOSE GENERAL CONCLUSIONS ARE?
A. THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT SEEMS TO ENHANCE PEAT
ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION. THIS PAPER
HERE DOES NOT REALLY ADDRESS HYDROPERIOD---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---SO---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---I MEAN, THE FIRST PAPER SORT OF ALLOWED US TO
FIGURE OUT WHERE WE NEED TO HONE IN AND LOOK MORE
IN-DEPTH AT THE ENRICHMENT PROBLEM. AND SO THIS
PAPER GOES TO THAT AREA, THE NORTHERN PART OF
CONSERVATION AREA 2A.
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU CHOSE NOT TO LOOK AT HYDROPERIOD,
IS THAT RIGHT?
A. WELL, AGAIN, WE JUST -- THE DATA DOES NOT EXIST
FOR THESE POINTS -- FOR THESE LOCATIONS. AGAIN,
TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF HYDROPERIOD DATA AT THESE
EIGHTEEN POINTS WOULD BE GREAT, BUT IT'S JUST NOT
THERE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 269
Q. SO, YOU JUST WENT TO THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT
BECAUSE THAT YOU CAN PULL DATA ON, IS THAT
ACCURATE?
A. YEAH, TO SOME EXTENT. IT'S CERTAINLY EASIER TO
ACCESS THAN HYDROPERIOD OVER THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS.
Q. OKAY. YOU SAID THE SAME GENERAL CONCLUSIONS.
IMPLICITLY THERE ARE SOME DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS,
WHAT ARE THOSE?
A. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PAPER.
Q. OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A SECOND AND TELL ME.
A. AND I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT BOTH PAPERS, AND I
REALLY -- AM I BEING ASKED TO PERFORM HERE, OR CAN
YOU JUST ASK THE QUESTIONS?
Q. NO, I JUST WANT YOU TO TELL ME GENERALLY WHAT'S
THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE YOU'RE
FINDING IN YOUR GRADIENT WORK VERSUS YOUR---
A. I DON'T -- I DON'T SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENCES. WE
SEE ENHANCED PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT
ACCUMULATION, ESSENTIALLY.
Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU SAID THE SAME GENERAL
CONCLUSIONS, YOU WERE NOT IMPLYING THAT THERE WERE
DIFFERENCES?
A. WELL, I DON'T WANT TO COME OUT AND, YOU KNOW, JUST
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 270
SPEAK THAT I KNOW A HUNDRED PERCENT OF, YOU KNOW,
WHAT I SAID IN HERE WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT. SO,
I'M KIND OF HEDGING A LITTLE BIT IN CASE YOU COME
BACK AND SAY, WELL, A MINUTE AGO YOU SAID THIS,
BUT NOW YOU'RE SAYING THIS.
Q. OKAY. I THINK---
A. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Q. IT WASN'T A TRICK QUESTION; I WASN'T LOOKING TO
TRICK YOU. SO, I'M JUST GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU
THINK YOU'RE COMING TO THE SAME BASIC CONCLUSIONS,
AND IF YOU FIND SOMETHING DIFFERENT THEN WE'LL
DISCUSS IT WHEN YOU COME TO IT---
A. OKAY. SURE, THAT'S GREAT.
Q. ---THAT SEEMS FAIR. OKAY, IN THIS PAPER YOU LOOK
AT SIX LOCATIONS ALONG THREE TRANSECTS, AND YOU'RE
MEASURING CESIUM BULK DENSITY AND NUTRIENT
CONTENT, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. YOUR SIX LOCATIONS, ARE THEY -- IS THERE A
CHART IN HERE, THAT I DON'T RECALL, THAT SHOWS ME
WHERE THEY ARE?
A. THIS IS IT, THESE -- HERE ARE THE THREE TRANSECTS
AND THE SIX POINTS ON THE THREE.
Q. OKAY. YOU DID SIX ON EACH ONE?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 271
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY.
A. SO, A TOTAL OF EIGHTEEN POINTS.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU CHOSE THESE SITES; WERE YOU THE ONE
WHO CHOSE TO GO TO THOSE?
A. I THINK DR. RICHARDSON AND I CHOSE THEM.
Q. OKAY. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU CONSIDERED IN
CHOOSING THOSE SITES?
A. WELL, WE WANTED TO RUN EACH TRANSECT SOUTH OF A
WATER CONTROL STRUCTURE. SO, THAT'S HOW WE
ORIENTED THE LINES, AND THEN THE TRANSECT POINTS
ARE ESSENTIALLY EVENLY-SPACED, JUST TO TRY TO
DETERMINE THE EFFECTS OF ENRICHMENT ON PEAT
ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, AND ALSO HOW
FAR DOWNSTREAM THE ENRICHMENT, YOU KNOW, EXTENDS.
Q. OKAY. ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS YOU TALK ABOUT,
"SODIUM ENRICHMENT OF THE SOIL WAS EVIDENT ONLY
WITHIN ONE POINT FIVE KILOMETERS OF THE HILLSBORO
CANAL." WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS?
A. WELL, WE THOUGHT THAT SODIUM MIGHT PLAY A ROLE IN
THE ENCROACHMENT OF CATTAIL INTO SAWGRASS AREAS.
AND WE HAD SOME PRELIMINARY DATA THAT SUGGESTED
THAT SODIUM ENRICHMENT WAS OCCURRING IN AREAS
BELOW THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND THAT WAS THE MAIN
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 272
REASON WE LOOKED AT SODIUM.
Q. BUT YOU DIDN'T FIND THAT IT WAS THERE?
A. WELL, ONLY VERY CLOSE TO THE CANAL. IT CERTAINLY
DIDN'T EXTEND THAT FAR DOWNSTREAM.
Q. AND YOU COULDN'T ESTABLISH ANY RELATIONSHIP TO THE
ENCROACHMENT OF THE CATTAIL?
A. NO, I MEAN, WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY TRY TO, BUT WE
JUST DIDN'T SEE THE EXTENT OF SODIUM ENRICHMENT AS
WE SAW WITH PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT.
Q. OKAY.
A. THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT IS MUCH MORE WIDESPREAD
THAN THE SODIUM ENRICHMENT.
Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU CHOSE YOUR SITES, HOW DID YOU KNOW
HOW FAR THE ENRICHMENT EXTENDED?
A. WE DIDN'T KNOW. THAT'S WHY WE RAN THE LINES AND
THE SIX POINTS TO TRY TO DETERMINE THAT.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW DID YOU DETERMINE HOW FAR IT WENT?
A. WE LOOKED AT PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN THE
SOIL---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. ---AND PEAT DEPOSITED IN THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN HOW DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOU HAD
COME TO THE END OF THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 273
A. WHEN THE CONCENTRATION OF TOTAL P IN THE SOIL
LEVELED OFF, REACHED KIND OF A LEVEL, YOU KNOW,
THE VALUES WERE SIMILAR FROM ONE POINT TO THE
NEXT.
Q. OKAY. IN THAT GREENHOUSE EXPERIMENT THAT'S BEING
DONE BY THE GRADUATE STUDENT WE HAD DISCUSSED
EARLIER TODAY, WHAT IS THE FOCUS OF THAT WORK?
A. AGAIN, IT WAS RELATED TO DETERMINE IF SODIUM HAD A
ROLE IN CATTAIL ENCROACHMENT INTO SAWGRASS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHO SET UP THE DESIGN OF THAT
EXPERIMENT?
A. I HELPED AND JANE RAIKES, WHO'S THE STUDENT, YOU
KNOW, DID THE LION'S SHARE OF THE WORK.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE HYPOTHESIS OF IT?
A. AGAIN, SINCE I HAVEN'T SEEN IT RECENTLY, THE
HYPOTHESIS WAS THAT -- I THINK SHE HAD TWO. ONE,
THAT SODIUM LEVELS WOULD ENABLE -- OR ENHANCED
SODIUM LEVELS WOULD ENABLE CATTAIL TO MAYBE OUT
COMPETE OR TO OUT PERFORM SAWGRASS. NOT SO MUCH
MAYBE THAT -- YOU KNOW, SHE DIDN'T KNOW -- WE
DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER CATTAIL WOULD RESPOND MORE TO
SODIUM, OR WHETHER SAWGRASS WOULD RESPOND
ADVERSELY TO SODIUM---
Q. OKAY.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 274
A. ---SO, WE JUST WANTED TO SEE IF THERE WAS A SHIFT.
Q. RIGHT. AND THEN THE OTHER ONE?
A. SHE LOOKED AT THE EFFECT OF WATER LEVEL TO -- TWO
DIFFERENT WATER LEVELS. AND THAT -- THE
HYPOTHESIS THERE IS THAT CATTAIL -- SINCE THE DATA
SUGGESTS THAT CATTAIL SEEMS TO DO BETTER IN DEEPER
WATER THAN SAWGRASS, THAT DEEPER WATER LEVELS
WOULD ALLOW CATTAIL TO, AGAIN, OUT PERFORM
SAWGRASS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT CONCLUSIONS DID SHE COME TO?
A. SHE FOUND NO EFFECT OF SALT ON THE GROWTH OF
EITHER ONE.
Q. OKAY.
A. AND SHE DID FIND THAT SAWGRASS PRODUCED
SIGNIFICANTLY MORE DRY MATTER -- ABOVEGROUND DRY
MATTER -- IN THE SHALLOW FLOODED TREATMENTS AS
COMPARED TO CATTAIL, AND THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THE TWO IN THE DEEPER FLOODED.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. AND IF I
UNDERSTAND, MR. McCAUGHAN, ACCURATELY, THIS
WILL BE SUPPLIED TO US ONCE IT'S A FINAL
PAPER?
MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH, I HAVE NO PROBLEM,
AS SOON AS SHE -- SHE'S GOT NOW PUTTING THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 275
FINISHING TOUCHES ON IT.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: IT SHOULD BE READY THE
FIRST OF THE YEAR.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. AND THEN EITHER
WITH OR WITHOUT THE PRODUCTION AT
DR. RICHARDSON'S DEPOSITION---
MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH, I DON'T MIND
SENDING IT TO YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: ---IF I WANTED TO---
MR. McCAUGHAN: IF HE WANTED YOU---
MS. PONZOLI: ---ASK HIM FURTHER ABOUT
IT, I COULD ASK HIM AT THAT TIME?
MR. McCAUGHAN: SURE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SURE,
YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH DR. RICHARDSON HAS TO DO
WITH THE ACTUAL PAPER, OR THE SUPERVISION OF
IT, I'M NOT AWARE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE YOU HER SUPERVISING
PROFESSOR, OR IS DR. RICHARDSON?
A. HE IS -- ON PAPER HE IS THE MAN WHO APPROVES IT,
AND SIGNS OFF, AND ALLOWS HER TO GRADUATE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 276
Q. WHO'S HER SUPERVISING PROFESSOR, YOU?
A. PROBABLY ME, THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE A FAIR
ASSESSMENT, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY SODIUM WORK DONE
ACTUALLY IN THE EAA?
A. NO. NO.
Q. SO, YOU'VE HEARD OF NO DATA THAT WOULD REFLECT
ELEVATED LEVELS OF SODIUM IN THE EAA?
A. NO, JUST OUR DATA. PRELIMINARY DATA SUGGESTED
SODIUM MIGHT HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY, AND SO THAT'S
WHY WE UNDERTOOK -- WE MEASURED IT IN THIS
EXPERIMENT, AND WHY WE SET UP THE GREENHOUSE
EXPERIMENT.
Q. HAVE YOU ANY DATA FROM THE HILLSBORO CANAL THAT
INDICATES ELEVATED SODIUM LEVELS?
A. I DON'T HAVE ANY. I'M SURE THAT THERE IS DATA ON
IT, BUT I DON'T HAVE IT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THESE PAGES ARE DIFFICULT
BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T NUMBERED THEM.
A. RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A DRAFT.
Q. OKAY. I KNOW, I KNOW. DO YOU STILL THINK THAT
SODIUM PLAYS A ROLE, DR. CRAFT?
A. I DON'T REALLY THINK SO ANYMORE. I THOUGHT IT
MIGHT, BUT I THINK THE EXTENT OF ENRICHMENT HERE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 277
IS NOT THAT GREAT, AND ALSO I THINK THE GREENHOUSE
STUDY, YOU KNOW, REALLY SHOWED THAT NEITHER
SPECIES RESPONDED, YOU KNOW, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER TO
THE SALINITY -- TO THE SODIUM SALINITY TREATMENTS.
Q. SO, WE'VE ELIMINATED AT LEAST ONE PARAMETER WE CAN
WORRY ABOUT?
A. WELL, I -- I'M NOT SAYING RULE IT OUT COMPLETELY,
BUT I'M NOT SO INTERESTED IN IT ANYMORE. I MEAN,
I---
Q. OKAY. ON THE NEXT PAGE -- WE'RE JUST GOING TO
HAVE TO BE PRETTY CAREFUL AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS --
ON THE NEXT PAGE, I AM -- ABOUT IN THE LOWER
MID-HALF AFTER THE AERIAL EXTENT, IT SAYS,
"PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION ALONG THE GRADIENT IS A
FUNCTION OF SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION
DECREASING AS SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS DECREASES."
OKAY. IS THAT YOUR BELIEF THAT THIS HAPPENS?
A. WELL, I JUST THINK BASED ON THE SURFACE WATER
CHEMISTRY -- SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATIONS, AS IT GOES DOWN WITH DISTANCE, THE
ACCUMULATION RATE GOES DOWN. SO, THE DATA
SUPPORTS THAT OR SUGGESTS THAT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT SENTENCE SAYS THAT, "THESE
FINDINGS SUGGESTS THAT AS INFLOW PHOSPHORUS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 278
CONCENTRATIONS DECREASE, PROGRESSIVELY LARGER
WETLAND AREAS WILL BE NEEDED TO REMOVE THE SAME
AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS THAT IS SEQUESTERED IN A
SMALLER WETLAND EXPOSED TO HIGHER INPUT PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATIONS." I THINK THIS IS AN IMPORTANT
CONCEPT, I NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE DEALING
WITH. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PERCENTAGE OF
DECREASE?
A. NO, NO, JUST LIKE GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER
YEAR.
Q. WHEN YOU GO -- LET ME JUST -- SO, I UNDERSTAND
THESE CONCEPTS. WHEN YOU GO FROM, LET'S SAY, A
HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION TO FIFTY PARTS
PER BILLION -- IF YOU WERE TRYING TO REDUCE THE
TOTAL PHOSPHORUS SURFACE WATER CONCENTRATIONS
COMING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS -- THE
AMOUNT OF LAND THAT YOU WOULD NEED, ARE YOU SAYING
THAT IF YOU WANTED TO GO FROM FIFTY PARTS PER
BILLION DOWN TO, LET'S SAY, TEN, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE
YOU GOING TO NEED AN INCREASINGLY LARGE AMOUNT OF
LAND, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
A. TO REMOVE -- LET'S SAY YOU WANT TO REMOVE TEN
METRIC TONS OF PHOSPHORUS, AND YOU HAVE AN INFLOW
CONCENTRATION OF FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 279
Q. OKAY.
A. AND THEN -- BUT YOU ALSO -- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE
ANOTHER WETLAND THAT YOU WANT TO REMOVE TEN METRIC
TONS ALSO, BUT THE INFLOW CONCENTRATION THERE IS
ONLY TEN PARTS PER BILLION. I THINK THAT YOU'LL
NEED A LARGER AMOUNT OF AREA AT THAT -- TO REMOVE
THE SAME TEN METRIC TONS FOR THAT ONE THAT
RECEIVES TEN PARTS PER BILLION.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE RELATIONSHIP, AS YOU GO
FROM, LET'S SAY, FIFTY DOWN TO TEN, IS LINEAR?
A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, I DON'T KNOW.
Q. OKAY. I AM ADVISED THAT I NEED TO RETURN TO
CONCENTRATIONS AND NOT LOADING. SO, LET'S TRY IT
AGAIN AND SEE SO I CAN UNDERSTAND. I'M SURE THEY
ALL DO, BUT I NEED TO. IF WE GO FROM ONE FIFTY,
WHICH IS LARGELY WHAT'S COMING OFF THE EAA, DOWN
TO FIFTY -- FIFTY PPB CONCENTRATION TOTAL
PHOSPHORUS, LET'S SAY WE'VE SHIFTED, NOW WE WANT
TO -- IN A PERFECT WORLD, NOW WE WANT TO GO FROM
FIFTY PPB DOWN TO TEN, WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE
DIFFERENCE IN THE AMOUNT OF LAND? CONCENTRATION,
WE'RE LOOKING AT GETTING CONCENTRATIONS.
A. AGAIN, I'M JUST TALKING HERE ABOUT IF YOU WANT TO
MOVE THE SAME TONNAGE, OR, YOU KNOW, MASS, THEN IF
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 280
THE CONCENTRATION IS VERY HIGH YOU'LL ACHIEVE MORE
REMOVAL IN GROUNDS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR THAN
IF YOU -- OR TONS, THAN IF YOU HAVE A MUCH LOWER
CONCENTRATION, BUT YOU WANT TO REMOVE THAT SAME
AMOUNT.
Q. SO, YOU ARE -- ALL OF YOUR STATEMENTS REFER ONLY
TO LOADING---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. RIGHT.
Q. SO, YOUR STATEMENTS ARE NOT APPLICABLE IF YOU'RE
LOOKING AT CONCENTRATIONS---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---COMING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---AREA?
A. THIS PAPER, AS FAR AS I WOULD KNOW -- I WOULD HAVE
TO LOOK AT IT IN-DEPTH -- DOES NOT REALLY ADDRESS
THE CONCENTRATION QUESTION.
Q. OKAY. BUT LET ME ASK YOU, SINCE YOU'VE WORKED IN
THIS AREA, WHAT YOUR OPINION IS IN THAT REGARD.
A. OKAY. IF YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION OR SAY
IT AGAIN.
Q. WELL, WHAT I'M TRYING TO ASK YOU, ARE YOU GOING TO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 281
NEED INCREASING AMOUNTS OF LAND TO GET
INCREASINGLY LOWER CONCENTRATIONS?
A. IF YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE SAME AMOUNT---
Q. NO, NOT -- LET'S LEAVE THE LOAD ALONE, LET'S JUST
TALK ABOUT THE CONCENTRATION, CAN YOU DO IT THAT
WAY?
A. NOT -- NO. I MEAN, MAYBE IF I THOUGHT ABOUT IT
FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS I COULD, BUT RIGHT NOW, YOU
KNOW, I DON'T -- I CAN'T ADDRESS THE QUESTION.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE THAT WE'VE
JUST BEEN ON, YOU SAY, "INPUT RATES EXCEEDING THIS
LOADING COULD RESULT IN AN EXPANSION OF THE ELEVEN
THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES UNTIL A NEW
EQUILIBRIUM SIZE IS REACHED." DO YOU BELIEVE THAT
EQUILIBRIUM CAN BE HANDLED THROUGH MANAGEMENT
TECHNIQUES?
A. I THINK UP TO A POINT IT COULD BE -- TO SOME
EXTENT, CERTAINLY.
Q. WHAT WOULD THE POINT BE?
A. THAT I CANNOT -- I DON'T KNOW, I MEAN---
Q. YOU MEAN -- DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SITUATIONS
WHERE YOU SIMPLY COULDN'T MANAGE IT THROUGH
MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES?
A. SURE. I MEAN, IF IT WAS RECEIVING, SAY, TWO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 282
HUNDRED METRIC TONS OF P PER YEAR, I'M NOT SURE
ANY KIND OF MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES WOULD, YOU KNOW,
WOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP IT---
Q. OKAY. BECAUSE OF THIS---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---BECAUSE OF THE SIZE---
A. BUT, I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE---
Q. ---I MEAN, IT'S JUST INADEQUATE SIZING?
A. ---SOME TECHNIQUES THAT COULD BE POTENTIALLY BE
USED TO, YOU KNOW, TO KEEP IT -- TO HAVE IT
CONTINUE STORING PHOSPHORUS AND TO KEEP IT AT THE
SAME SIZE.
Q. OKAY. SUCH AS?
A. WELL, YOU CAN REMOVE THE VEGETATION, WHICH IS
SOMETHING EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT, BUT IT'S NOT
PRACTICAL, SO.
Q. WHY?
A. WELL, I CAN'T SEE ANYBODY GETTING INTO THOSE
PEAT-BASED WETLANDS AND TRYING TO CUT DOWN ALL
THAT SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL AND CARRYING IT OFF THE
SITE. I MEAN, YOU COULD DO IT, THE CORPS OF
ENGINEERS COULD DO IT, BUT THE COST WOULD JUST BE
OUT OF THIS WORLD. MAYBE SOME WATER LEVEL
MANIPULATION, YOU KNOW, COULD ENHANCE, OR, YOU
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 283
KNOW, BY INCREASING THE HYDROPERIOD SOME, MAYBE
ENHANCE THE BUILDUP OF PEAT AND PHOSPHORUS
STORAGE. AND THEN THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO FEEL
THAT DIFFERENT PLANT SPECIES REMOVE DIFFERENT
AMOUNTS OF PEAT, AND THAT MAYBE---
Q. DO YOU SUPPORT THAT BELIEF?
A. I THINK -- YEAH, BUT I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, YOU
KNOW, WHICH SPECIES DO BETTER THAN OTHERS, AND I
HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT SOME OF THAT TYPE OF WORK,
YOU KNOW, OR THOSE SORTS OF IDEAS.
Q. WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION?
A. WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT BECAUSE CATTAIL
IS MORE PRODUCTIVE YOU CAN SEQUESTER MORE
PHOSPHORUS. BUT MY EXPERIENCE IN THE FIELD IS IS
THAT IT MAY HAVE MORE PRODUCTIVITY, BUT I DON'T
THINK CATTAIL PRODUCES THE HIGH QUALITY RESISTANT
PEAT THAT SAWGRASS PRODUCES. I THINK CATTAIL
PROBABLY DECOMPOSES MORE QUICKLY THAN SAWGRASS,
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, BY MAYBE REPLACEMENT OF,
YOU KNOW, PUTTING CATTAIL IN TO ENHANCE
PRODUCTIVITY YOU MAY HAVE AN INCREASE IN
DECOMPOSITION THAT WILL OFFSET ANY INCREASE IN
PRODUCTION.
Q. IS THERE A GENERAL PRINCIPAL OF THINGS THAT GROW
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 284
FASTER ROT FASTER?
A. I DON'T KNOW, I'VE NOT HEARD THAT. BUT CATTAIL
HAS THIS AERENCHYMA TISSUE, AIRSPACES IN IT, AND
SAWGRASS HAS A LOT OF SILICA IN IT, WHICH IS VERY
RESISTANT. WELL, IT DOESN'T DECOMPOSE, IT'S
ESSENTIALLY LIKE QUARTZ ROCK, SO.
Q. IS ANYONE DOING ANY RESEARCH ON WHAT WOULD REMOVE
MORE AND HOLD IT LONGER?
A. NO, NO. NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE USEFUL FOR THESE ISSUES THAT
WE'RE LOOKING AT?
A. I THINK SO, YEAH.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY NO ONE'S LOOKING AT THAT?
A. HUH-UH (NO), I DON'T.
Q. OKAY.
A. SO MUCH TO DO; SO LITTLE TIME.
Q. UH-HUH (YES). JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, ARE YOU
IMPLYING THAT THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED
HECTARES IS CURRENTLY STABLE?
A. WHAT I'M IMPLYING -- AND IMPLY IS THE GOOD WORD, I
THINK, TO USE -- IS THAT IF IT'S CONTINUED TO LOAD
WITH ABOUT FIFTY METRIC TONS PER YEAR, WHICH IS
APPROXIMATELY THE STORAGE RATE, THEN IT
PROBABLY -- IT MAY WELL BE AN EQUILIBRIUM. BUT IF
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 285
YOU EXCEED THAT TO, SAY, EIGHTY METRIC TONS A YEAR
FOR ONE YEAR, YOU KNOW, I HAVE SOME CONCERNS AS TO
WHETHER IT WILL, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT WILL STAY AN
EQUILIBRIUM OR WHETHER IT'LL EXPAND, AND I SAY
THAT, SO.
Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. BUT WHAT WAS THE CONCEPT OF
SATURATION WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, HOW DOES THAT
FACTOR INTO THIS?
A. WELL, I THINK IT MAY BE AT FIFTY TO FIFTY-FIVE
METRIC TONS PER YEAR. ONE THING ABOUT PEAT
ACCRETION IS YOU DON'T SATURATE IT LIKE YOU WOULD
SATURATE A SOIL EXCHANGE COMPLEX WHERE YOU GET SO
MUCH PHOSPHORUS -- YOU KNOW, YOU FILL ALL THE
EXCHANGE SITES WITH PHOSPHORUS. REMEMBER, PEAT IN
THE EVERGLADES HAS BUILT UP OVER FIVE THOUSAND
YEARS, AND IN SOME PLACES WE HAVE THREE, FOUR
METERS OF PEAT. AND SO EVERY YEAR YOU CAN GET A
LITTLE BIT MORE INCREMENT OF PEAT BUILDING UP.
SO, I MEAN, IN TERMS OF SATURATION, I'M NOT
EXACTLY SURE IF THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE WAY TO
LOOK AT IT.
Q. IT WAS YOUR IDEA, WASN'T IT, THE SATURATION
CONCEPT?
A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT I SAID.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 286
Q. WELL, DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT NOW?
A. SURE.
Q. CAUSE I THOUGHT YOU SAID IT, I DIDN'T BRING IT UP.
APPROACHING SATURATION WAS ON PAGE 19. YOU SAID
THAT -- ON PAGE 19, STARTING ON LINE NINE THROUGH
SIXTEEN---
A. NOW, IS THIS PREVIOUS -- THIS IS NUMBER FIVE?
Q. CRAFT FIVE, RIGHT, RIGHT. I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND
IT, BUT I'M BEGINNING TO KNOW YOUR PAPERS.
A. AND WHAT LINE?
Q. PAGE 19, LINES NINE THROUGH SIXTEEN, YOU TALK
ABOUT, "THE ENRICHED AREA MAY BE APPROACHING
SATURATION WITH RESPECT TO PHOSPHORUS
ACCUMULATION."
A. AND I DO SAY IT MAY BE APPROACHING SATURATION.
AND YOU ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS PRELIMINARY
WORK THAT WAS DONE BEFORE THIS WORK WAS PERFORMED.
Q. OH, SO, IN OTHER WORDS, CRAFT NUMBER FIVE IS
PRELIMINARY DATA, YOU BELIEVE THAT CRAFT NUMBER
SIXTEEN IS MORE COMPREHENSIVE DATA?
A. WELL, FOR THE ENRICHED AREA, NO QUESTION. THERE'S
NO QUESTION. THIS HAS TWO CORES FROM THE ENRICHED
AREA AND THIS HAS EIGHTEEN. SO -- AND THIS IS
PART OF THE ITERATIVE PROCESS. YOU GET SOME
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 287
INFORMATION, AND YOU TRY TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF
IT, AND YOU GO BACK TO THESE AREAS OF INTEREST AND
YOU COLLECT MORE INFORMATION.
Q. SO, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF
REGARDING THE ENRICHED AREA, THE ELEVEN THOUSAND
FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES IN THE TOP OF WATER
CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. I AM NOT READY TO SAY THAT IT'S IN EQUILIBRIUM; I
THINK MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE. LIKE ANY
GOOD SCIENTIST WOULD SAY.
Q. IS THIS CALLED JOB SECURITY?
A. NO, IT'S JUST I'M NOT GOING TO STEP OUT ON A LIMB,
BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. I
THINK I HAVE SOME; SOME INFORMATION THAT POINTS US
IN CERTAIN DIRECTIONS, BUT I DON'T CLAIM TO HAVE
ALL THE ANSWERS TO THIS.
Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD WE KNOW? WHAT RESEARCH WOULD WE
DO TO DECIDE IF 2A, THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE
HUNDRED HECTARES, IS IN EQUILIBRIUM?
A. I THINK THE CONTINUED MONITORING OF PERMANENT
PLOTS TO SEE WHETHER THE FRONT IS MOVING SOUTH.
BUT I THINK TO DO THAT, AND TO DETERMINE WHETHER
IT HAS STABILIZED, YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE
LOADING RATE DOESN'T EXCEED THIS FIFTY TO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 288
FIFTY-FIVE METRIC TONS. YOU WOULD HAVE TO KEEP
THE LOADING RATE CONSTANT FROM YEAR TO YEAR, AND,
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO DO.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE IT'S GOING TO
INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY?
A. I DON'T KNOW; I JUST DON'T KNOW.
Q. OKAY. I GUESS IT WAS OUR HOPE THAT IT WAS GOING
IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.
A. IT MAY HAVE STABILIZED, I JUST DON'T KNOW.
Q. HOW MUCH DATA WOULD YOU NEED BEFORE YOU COULD
DETERMINE IF IT WERE STABILIZED?
A. OH, WELL, I'M GOING TO RETIRE IN ABOUT TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS. SO, I THINK WE NEED ABOUT TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS WORTH OF DATA TO---
Q. SERIOUSLY, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THIS A
VERY SERIOUS CONCEPT, WHETHER IT IS IN EQUILIBRIUM
OR NOT, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE WE NEED
MORE DATA BEFORE WE MAKE THAT TYPE OF A
CONSIDERATION. SO, I'M ASKING YOU HOW MUCH DATA
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD NEED?
A. I THINK -- WELL, LET'S SAY HYPOTHETICALLY YOU
COULD LIMIT THE LOADING OF PHOSPHORUS TO THIS AREA
TO FIFTY METRIC TONS A YEAR FOR THE NEXT FIVE
YEARS AND MONITOR THESE PERMANENT LOCATIONS, AND I
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 289
THINK IF YOU DON'T SEE AN ADVANCE OF THE FRONT,
THAT WOULD BE SOME PRETTY STRONG EVIDENCE TO
SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT IT HAS STABILIZED.
Q. OKAY. NOW -- ALL RIGHT. LET'S ASSUME THAT WE
DON'T SEE THE FRONT ADVANCING, THINGS JUST STAY
STABLE. THEN WE START TO SEE SOME LITTLE CHANGES.
HOW DO WE DECIDE WHEN THE FRONT IS ADVANCING?
A. WELL, THAT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT YOU WOULD MEASURE,
SURFACE WATER, PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION, MIGHT BE
ONE THING. I THINK RON HERE HAS DONE THE ALKALINE
PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY AS A POTENTIAL INDICATOR. I
FIND THAT MACROPHYTES TAKE UP PHOSPHORUS PRETTY
DANG QUICKLY, AND I THINK IF YOU COULD MONITOR THE
PHOSPHORUS CONTENT OF THE VEGETATION AND SEE IF IT
STARTS TO INCREASE, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.
Q. PORE WATER, WOULD YOU MONITOR PORE WATER?
A. YOU COULD, BUT MY FEELING IS, IS I DON'T THINK IT
IS AS GOOD OF AN INDICATOR AS SOME OF THESE OTHER
THINGS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU WOULD MONITOR SURFACE WATER FIRST.
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT FIRST, MAYBE ALTOGETHER.
Q. OKAY. YOU WOULD LOOK AT SURFACE WATER, YOU WOULD
LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION IN THE
MACROPHYTES, AND YOU WOULD LOOK AT ALKALINE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 290
PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY?
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE ALKALINE
PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY, BUT I HAVE HEARD ENOUGH TO
WHERE IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING TO USE AS A WAY TO
DETERMINE THE---
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU GOING TO DO ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE
ACTIVITY AT THE DOSING STUDY?
A. I DON'T KNOW, SINCE I'M NOT INVOLVED IN IT, AND
THAT'S -- THAT'S MORE A MICROBIOLOGIST'S
TECHNIQUE, AND I'M NOT A MICROBIOLOGIST, SO.
Q. AND WHEN YOU START TO -- LET'S JUST -- GOING BACK
TO MY HYPOTHETICAL -- WHEN YOU STARTED TO SEE
SHIFTS IN THE SURFACE WATER AND THE PHOSPHORUS
ACCUMULATION IN THE MACROPHYTES AND, LET'S SAY,
IF WE DID ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE, WE SAW
INCREASE/DECREASE -- WHATEVER -- HOW WOULD YOU
DETERMINE WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAD A FRONT SHIFTING
DOWNSTREAM?
A. WELL, I GUESS IF YOU SAW AN INCREASE IN THE
SURFACE WATER P AND THE UPTAKE BY THE MACROPHYTES,
THAT WOULD SUGGEST -- AND I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE
ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY, SO.
Q. PUT THAT ASIDE, THAT'S OKAY. IF YOU SAW AN
INCREASE IN THE OTHERS THAT WOULD INDICATE THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 291
FRONT WAS MOVING?
A. AND YOU MAY HAVE TO ACTUALLY -- I MEAN, AS MUCH AS
IS AT STAKE AT THIS, YOU MAY HAVE TO SET UP A LOT
OF PERMANENT PLOTS AND TRY TO DO SOME STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT IS A
STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE. AS YOU CAN
SEE, FIELD DATA HAS QUITE A BIT OF VARIABILITY.
Q. SO, YOU WOULD WANT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT
CHANGES IN THE READINGS?
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD WANT -- THIS, AGAIN,
IS HYPOTHETICAL AND THIS MIGHT BE AN APPROPRIATE
WAY TO GO ABOUT IT. AND THERE ARE PROBABLY OTHER
PARAMETERS YOU CAN MEASURE---
Q. SURE.
A. ---BUT I'M -- AGAIN, I'M -- I DON'T KNOW, THIS
ISN'T MY LIVELIHOOD IN TERMS OF TRYING TO
DETERMINE THIS AREA.
Q. WHAT IS AT STAKE? YOU SAID, "CONSIDERING WHAT'S
AT STAKE HERE," WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE?
A. WELL, I JUST THINK THAT THE WHOLE IDEA OF TRYING
TO SETTLE THE ISSUE OF PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT OF
THE EVERGLADES, AND WHO PAYS. AND -- I MEAN, I
READ THE NEWSPAPERS, AND I KNOW THAT THEY WANT TO
SPEND FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 292
($400,000,000.00) TO BUILD THESE STORMWATER
TREATMENT AREAS, AND AS A TAXPAYER IN FLORIDA, I
WOULD -- YOU KNOW, THAT'S NO SMALL CHANGE, SO.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT WHAT IT COST TO CLEANUP
SUPERFUND SITES?
A. WELL, I THINK THEY'VE GOT BILLIONS EARMARKED, I
KNOW THAT, SO.
Q. YEAH, I KNOW.
A. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH, BUT IT'S A LOT.
Q. YEAH, AND LANDFILL SITES, HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT
THE FIGURES FOR WHAT IT COSTS TO DO LANDFILL
SITES?
A. (NODS NEGATIVELY.)
Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU INDICATED THE EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT
EFFICIENCY FOR PHOSPHORUS, DOES THAT INDICATE THAT
YOU THINK THIS AREA IS IN EQUILIBRIUM, THE
UNENRICHED AREA, UP THROUGH THE ENRICHED?
A. I DON'T---
Q. I'M SORRY, STRIKE THE QUESTION, STRIKE THE
QUESTION. YOU INDICATED EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT FOR
THE ENRICHED AREA, DIDN'T YOU, EIGHTY-SEVEN
PERCENT EFFICIENCY?
A. RIGHT.
Q. DOES THAT INDICATE THAT IT'S IN EQUILIBRIUM?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 293
A. I DON'T KNOW. I THINK I RECALL THAT THERE, SINCE
IT WAS LESS THAN A HUNDRED PERCENT, THAT IT WOULD
SUGGEST THAT MAYBE -- I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN IT'S
HARD TO SAY, EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT IS NOT TOO FAR
OFF OF ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. AND IN THIS KIND OF
WORK THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IT MAY BE WITHIN THE REALM
OF THE ERRORS.
Q. OKAY. IT COULD INDICATE THAT THE FRONT IS MOVING,
OR IT COULD INDICATE THAT IT'S STABLE?
A. I DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT SAYING -- TALKING ABOUT
THAT IN TERMS OF -- SINCE IT'S BASED ON TWO SOIL
CORES FROM THAT AREA. AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE THIS IS
A MORE IN-DEPTH TREATMENT OF THAT AREA.
Q. OKAY. HOW MANY CORES IS THIS BASED ON?
A. THIS IS BASED ON EIGHTEEN.
Q. AND THEN HOW MANY REPLICATES DID YOU TAKE?
A. WELL, ESSENTIALLY WE DIDN'T TAKE ANY REPLICATES,
EXCEPT FOR CESIUM ANALYSIS.
Q. OKAY. AND FOR THAT YOU TOOK VARYING NUMBERS?
A. WELL, AT LIKE FOUR LOCATIONS, WE -- WE NEVER TOOK
TRUE REPLICATES. WE WENT OUT AND RAN THE THREE
TRANSECTS AND TOOK THE CORES, AND WE DID THE
CESIUM PROFILES. AND WE FOUND AT SOME SITES THE
CESIUM PROFILES WERE NOT THAT GOOD. SO, WE WENT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 294
BACK TO THOSE SITES A YEAR LATER AND TOOK SOME
ADDITIONAL CORES TO TRY TO SEE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER
THE NUMBERS JUST -- THE SITES HAD POOR CESIUM
PROFILES, OR JUST TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON IT.
BUT THOSE AREN'T TRUE REPLICATES, SINCE THEY'RE
COLLECTED A YEAR APART.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU TOOK FOR THIS GRADIENT STUDY ONE
CORE PER SITE AT THE EIGHTEEN SITES?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN FOR THE CESIUM, JUST -- I'M SORRY,
YOU KNOW, I LOSE IT SOMETIMES. YOU TOOK CESIUM AT
WHICH OF THESE SITES?
A. IT'S IN THE TEXT IN THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION, I
SAY THAT WE WENT BACK TO, I DON'T KNOW, I THINK C1
WAS ONE SITE AND MAYBE C5 WAS A SITE. IT SAYS
HERE -- WELL, TOO BAD, I DON'T HAVE PAGE NUMBERS.
IT'S THE FIRST PAGE OF THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION.
Q. OKAY.
A. BUT WE WENT BACK FOR CESIUM AT---
Q. WHERE ARE WE NOW---
A. THE VERY -- YEAH.
Q. ---I'M NOT WITH YOU.
A. GO THROUGH THE INTRO AND THE MATERIALS AND METHODS
TO THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 295
Q. OKAY.
A. YOU'VE GOT SIX OR EIGHT PAGES TO GO THROUGH.
Q. OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THAT'S IT THERE.
Q. I'M AT IT, YEAH.
A. OKAY. AND IT'S IN THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH ABOUT
SEVEN LINES DOWN WHERE -- WELL, ACTUALLY, THE
SECOND -- THE THIRD SENTENCE. WE COLLECTED
ADDITIONAL CORES FROM 10A2, 10C1, AND 10C5 IN JUNE
1991 TO VERIFY THE LOCATION OF CESIUM PEAKS AT
THESE SITES. AND THEN IN THE NEXT SENTENCE, WE
BASICALLY TAKE THE AVERAGE OF THE TWO CORES, AND
THERE'S REALLY PRETTY GOOD AGREEMENT CONSIDERING
THEY'RE A YEAR APART.
Q. IS THERE A REASON YOU DIDN'T DO REPLICATES?
A. NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF. CESIUM -- THESE ARE
ALL -- YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, IT'S NOT -- WHEN
YOU TAKE ONE CORE, IT'S NOT ONE SAMPLE. YOU
HAVE TO SLICE IT INTO DEPTH INCREMENTS, AND SO
YOU END UP WITH, LIKE, FIFTEEN TO TWENTY TO
THIRTY SAMPLES FOR EACH CORE. SO, IN TERMS OF
NUMBERS OF SAMPLES, YOU KNOW, ONE CORE YIELDS,
YOU KNOW, TWENTY TO THIRTY SAMPLES. AND SO WHEN
YOU MULTIPLY THAT BY EIGHTEEN, YOU START GETTING
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 296
UP THERE IN THE, YOU KNOW, THE HUNDREDS OF
SAMPLES, THREE HUNDRED SAMPLES AFTER NOT TOO
LONG.
Q. I HEAR YOU. ON THE SECOND PAGE, YOU TALK ABOUT --
THE BOTTOM OF THE FIRST FULL PARAGRAPH THAT YOU'VE
BEEN TALKING ABOUT -- THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT,
AND THEN YOU SAY, "CONCURRENT WITH THE ENRICHMENT
AND ENHANCED SURFACE FLOW HAVE BEEN A SHIFT IN
PLANT SPECIES COMPOSITION FROM A COMMUNITY
DOMINATED BY SAWGRASS AND SLOUGH SPECIES TO ONE
CONSISTING PRIMARILY OF CATTAIL."
A. ARE WE -- SECOND PAGE OF THE INTRODUCTION, IS THIS
RIGHT?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. OKAY, I SEE IT.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT? I THINK
YOU WROTE IT, DIDN'T YOU?
A. YES. BUT YOU CAN SEE I CITE THREE DIFFERENT
PEOPLE AND, I MEAN, I THINK I PROBABLY AGREE WITH
IT, BUT I HAVEN'T PERSONALLY -- I WASN'T
PERSONALLY OUT THERE IN THE 1970'S TO SEE WHAT THE
VEGETATION WAS THEN AND WHAT IT IS NOW. SO, YEAH,
I MEAN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THESE PEOPLE SAW IT,
AND---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 297
Q. YOU HAVE NO DATA TO DISAGREE WITH IT?
A. NO, HUH-UH (NO).
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT DOES ENHANCED SURFACE FLOW
MEAN?
A. AN INCREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF WATER FLOWING ACROSS
THE SITE.
Q. INCREASE OVER WHAT?
A. OVER PROBABLY WHAT IT WAS IN THE HISTORICAL DAYS.
Q. WAS THAT -- OKAY, THAT'S JUST YOUR EXTENDED
HYDROPERIOD CONCEPT OUT OF THE SWIM PLAN?
A. YEAH, I THINK SO. I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE SAME
SORT OF THING.
Q. AND THAT'S THE SOURCE OF YOUR INFORMATION FOR
THAT?
A. ACTUALLY, I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE
REFERENCES TO SEE WHETHER THAT---
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. ON THE NEXT PAGE -- WE ARE NOW
THREE PAGES INTO YOUR INTRODUCTION -- YOU TALK
ABOUT IN THE -- "ALTHOUGH CHANGES IN COMMUNITY
STRUCTURE HAVE OCCURRED IN RESPONSE TO ALTERATIONS
IN WATER FLOWS AND NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, THE
EFFECTS OF AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE ON ECOSYSTEM
LEVEL PROCESSES, SUCH AS NUTRIENT STORAGE
CAPACITY, HAVE NOT BEEN QUANTIFIED." CAN YOU
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 298
DEFINE THE ROLE OF THE WATER FLOW VERSUS THE
NUTRIENTS?
A. AGAIN, THAT'S, TO ME, THE BIG QUESTION, IS TRY TO
SEPARATE THOSE OUT. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. I DON'T
THINK I -- YOU KNOW, IF I COULD HAVE MADE A STAB
AT IT, I THINK I WOULD HAVE DONE IT.
Q. OKAY. THEN YOU GO ON TO SAY, "NUTRIENT
ENRICHMENT, ESPECIALLY PHOSPHORUS, MAY STIMULATE
NET PRIMARY PRODUCTION OF EVERGLADES MACROPHYTES
RESULTING IN AN INCREASE IN PEAT ACCRETION IN
ENRICHED AREAS AS COMPARED TO UNIMPACTED AREAS
THAT DO NOT RECEIVE AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE." WHERE
ARE THESE UNIMPACTED AREAS?
A. OKAY. THESE ARE IN THAT AREA IN 2A, TO THE
SOUTHWEST OF THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND CERTAINLY IN
CONSERVATION AREA 3A, IN THAT INTERIOR AREA.
Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU CONSIDER THE FURTHERMOST POINTS OF
10D, 10C, AND 10A, YOUR GRADIENTS, THAT YOU
CONSIDER THOSE UNIMPACTED AREAS?
A. NO, THIS IS -- SEE, WHEN YOU WRITE THE
INTRODUCTION, YOU DON'T BRING IN ANY OF THE DATA
IN THE CURRENT PAPER. THIS IS BASED ON THE PAPER
THAT WE TALKED ABOUT THIS MORNING, THE DATA FROM
IT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 299
Q. UH-HUH (YES). OH, YOU MEAN FROM YOUR SEVEN SITES,
WHEN YOU FIRST DID YOUR RESEARCH?
A. RIGHT. FROM NUMBER FIVE, RIGHT.
Q. AND THOSE ARE THE 3A SITE AND THE UNENRICHED SITE
NEAR THE 217 GAUGE?
A. YES. AND PERHAPS 2B, TOO, ALTHOUGH THAT AREA HAS
A DIFFERENCE IN HYDROPERIOD, OR AT LEAST IT'S
BELIEVED TO HAVE A DIFFERENCE IN HYDROPERIOD.
Q. ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU ESSENTIALLY CONCEDING,
DR. CRAFT, THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHED AGRICULTURAL
DRAINAGE IS IMPACTING THE EVERGLADES?
A. I WOULD SAY THAT THE -- YEAH, THERE ARE SOME
CHANGES THAT SEEM TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE
PHOSPHORUS ADDITION, SURE.
Q. AND THESE ARE COMMUNITY SHIFTS AND THE OTHER
CHANGES THAT WE'VE DISCUSSED OVER THE COURSE OF
THE DAY?
A. AND THERE SEEMS TO BE AN INCREASE IN PEAT
ACCRETION TO SOME EXTENT.
Q. OKAY. YOU TALK ABOUT THE FRONT ON THE FINAL PAGE
OF YOUR INTRODUCTION, "ALTHOUGH THE ENRICHED
AREA" -- ARE YOU WITH ME?
A. YES.
Q. "ALTHOUGH THE ENRICHED AREA HAS FUNCTIONED
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 300
EFFECTIVELY AS A SINK FOR PHOSPHORUS FOR THE PAST
TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, THERE IS CONCERN THAT THE
EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL WILL DECREASE
OVER TIME RESULTING IN A FRONT OF PHOSPHORUS
ENRICHMENT PENETRATING FURTHER SOUTH INTO THE
EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEM, AND EVENTUALLY REACHING
EVERGLADES NATIONAL PARK." I GUESS, I HAVE TWO --
A QUESTION. THERE ARE TWO CONCERNS IN THIS PAPER.
ONE IS THIS CONCEPT OF THE FRONT AND THE THREAT TO
THE PARK, IS THAT RIGHT?
A. WELL, OR JUST THE -- YEAH, THE POTENTIAL INCREASE
IN THE SIZE OF THIS AREA OF ENRICHMENT.
Q. AND THE SECOND IS THE DESIGN OF THE STA'S, WHAT
INFORMATION COULD BE EXTRAPOLATED TO BE APPLIED TO
STA'S?
A. POTENTIALLY, SURE.
Q. IS THAT THE GOAL OF THE RESEARCH?
A. NO. BECAUSE YOU SEE THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE HERE ON
THE PREVIOUS PAGE IS JUST TO CHARACTERIZE THE
RECENT RATES OF ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT
ACCUMULATION ALONG THIS GRADIENT. AND THEN THERE
ARE ADDITIONAL OBJECTIVES THAT DO HAVE SOME OF
THESE MANAGEMENT IMPLICATIONS.
Q. WELL, I THINK WHAT I'VE BEEN DRIVING AT, I GUESS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 301
ALMOST FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS MORNING WAS, ARE
WE REALLY LOOKING AT CONCEPTS THAT WILL AID US IN
MANAGEMENT. IS THAT WHAT -- IS THAT THE GOAL OF
THIS RESEARCH?
A. SURE, I THINK TO SOME -- YEAH, TO A LARGE EXTENT,
IT IS. IT'S APPLIED SORT OF RESEARCH TO DETER --
TO TRY TO USE INFORMATION THAT EXISTS IN THIS
AREA, TO TRY TO SOLVE SOME OF THE PROBLEMS IN THE
EVERGLADES.
Q. SO, WHEN YOU SAT DOWN AND DID YOUR DESIGNS, YOU
WERE LOOKING AT ECOLOGICAL MANAGEMENT CONCEPTS?
A. RIGHT. BUT AT THAT TIME, WE WEREN'T -- YOU KNOW,
I DON'T EVEN THINK I KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE
STA'S. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THESE CORES WERE
COLLECTED TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. THEY MAY
HAVE HAD SOMETHING WITH THE SWIM PLAN, WATER
MANAGEMENT AREAS OR SOMETHING. THE NAME CHANGES
ALL THE TIME, SO.
Q. BUT YOU WERE FAMILIAR WITH THE CONCEPT OF
FLOWWAYS---
A. SURE.
Q. ---OR WHATEVER THEY'RE CALLED THROUGHOUT THE
LITERATURE?
A. I'VE WORKED IN CONSTRUCTIVE WETLANDS FOR TEN
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 302
YEARS, SO I'M NOT, YOU KNOW, UNAWARE OF
CONSTRUCTIVE WETLANDS TO REMOVE NUTRIENTS, I
MEAN---
Q. AND IT'S AN EFFECTIVE TECHNIQUE, IS THAT RIGHT?
A. IT CAN WORK. I THINK -- YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A HUGE
ADVOCATE OF GOING OUT AND BUILDING WETLANDS
EVERYWHERE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT WILL ALWAYS
WORK.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. IT JUST -- I THINK IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH -- WHAT
THE INPUT, HOW MUCH -- WHAT THE CONCENTRATION OF
THE INFLOW IS, WHAT'S THE MASS LOADING, HOW THE
WETLAND IS GOING TO FUNCTION. YOU HAVE TO DO A
LOT OF THINGS TO GET -- YOU'VE GOT TO GET IT TO
WORK LIKE A WETLAND, FIRST. YOU'VE GOT TO GET
THE HYDROLOGY RIGHT; YOU'VE GOT TO GET THE SOILS
TO FUNCTION AS WETLAND SOILS; THOSE KIND OF
THINGS.
Q. HAVE YOU AT THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER LOOKED INTO
HOW TO GET THE HYDROLOGY RIGHT TO MAKE A FLOWWAY,
OR A CONSTRUCTED WETLAND WORK SO THAT IT WOULD
REMOVE THE MOST PHOSPHORUS?
A. I HAVEN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I
MEAN, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE IDEAS OF, YOU KNOW,
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 303
TRYING TO CONSTRUCT WETLANDS TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS.
I MEAN, DR. RICHARDSON HAS BEEN WORKING WITH
WETLANDS AND PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL FOR FIFTEEN YEARS,
SO, YOU KNOW.
Q. HAS HE ACTUALLY HELPED DESIGN WETLAND CLEANUP
AREAS?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF HE BELIEVES THAT THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL
TECHNIQUES?
A. AGAIN, THAT'S SOMETHING I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE
TO ASK HIM. I DON'T REALLY -- I MEAN, I THINK HE
MAY BE LIKE ME -- I THINK THEY CAN WORK, BUT I
DON'T -- YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY DON'T WORK. YOU
KNOW, YOU JUST HAVE TO---
Q. SURE. IN ORDER FOR THEM TO WORK IN THE
EVERGLADES, WHAT TYPE OF RESEARCH DO YOU THINK
NEEDS TO BE DONE TO DETERMINE HOW THEY WOULD WORK,
OR HOW THEY COULD WORK, OR HOW THEY NEED TO BE
DESIGNED?
A. AGAIN, I THINK THE INFORMATION IN THIS PAPER
PROVIDES SOME INFORMATION ON RELATING THE
CONCENTRATIONS -- YOU KNOW, SURFACE WATER
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS TO REMOVAL RATES. IF
THEY'RE -- ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 304
DESIGN A PEAT BASED CONSTRUCTIVE WETLAND.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER WORKED WITH A WETLAND SYSTEM
THAT DIDN'T WORK?
A. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SYSTEMS THAT MAY WORK
INITIALLY, BUT THEN THEY SEEM TO QUIT WORKING.
Q. OKAY. AND WHY DID THEY QUIT WORKING?
A. WELL, THAT, NOBODY -- THAT WAS NEVER REALLY
ADDRESSED, OR THEY'RE TRYING TO LOOK AT THOSE
SORTS OF THINGS NOW. THEY TEND TO BE MORE MINERAL
BASED SOILS, AND THE MECHANISMS FOR PHOSPHORUS
REMOVAL ARE DIFFERENT IN THOSE.
Q. OKAY. TELL ME HOW JUST YOU WOULD TAKE YOUR
INFORMATION AND LIFT THIS AND PUT IT INTO THE
DESIGN OF A FLOWWAY, OR A WETLAND TREATMENT
SYSTEM, OR AN STA, WHATEVER WE WANT TO CALL THIS
CLEANUP WETLAND.
A. I THINK WE FIND THAT THESE PEAT BASED WETLANDS ON
AN ANNUAL BASIS JUST DON'T REMOVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF
PHOSPHORUS. THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT THE AVERAGE
ACCUMULATION RATE IN THESE ENRICHED AREAS IS
AROUND A HALF A GRAM PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR.
AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT NUMBER, AND LET'S SAY YOU
WANT TO MOVE -- REMOVE "X" NUMBER OF TONS, THEN
YOU CAN SAY, WELL, IF WE'RE GOING TO REMOVE A HALF
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 305
A GRAM PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR WITH THESE PEAT
BASED SYSTEMS, THEN WE NEED, YOU KNOW, "X" NUMBER
OF ACRES TO DO THAT.
Q. OKAY. THEN IS IT JUST A MATTER OF SIZING THEM
APPROPRIATELY?
A. NO. I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT YOU MAY WANT TO TRY
DIFFERENT TYPES OF PLANT SPECIES, SOME THAT MAY
HAVE HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY, BUT ALSO PRODUCE WHAT I
CONSIDER THIS HIGH QUALITY PEAT. THE KEY IS, IS
TO GET THE -- TO GET THE THING LEVEL, TO GET THE
GROUND ELEVATIONS RIGHT SO THAT THEY'RE NICE AND
SMOOTH AND FLAT SO YOU GET ESSENTIALLY EVEN FLOW.
AND ALSO TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE OPTIMUM WATER
LEVEL IN IT AND FLOW RATE IS TO GET TO THE OPTIMUM
PLANT GROWTH. YOU KNOW, YOU DUMP THREE FEET OF
WATER INTO SOME OF THE THINGS AND I THINK YOU'LL
KILL THE PLANTS, DEPENDING ON HOW LONG YOU LEAVE
IT IN FOR. I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE SOME THINGS
YOU CAN DO TO -- OTHER THAN SIZING IT.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU NEED TO GET THE GROUND LEVEL
STRAIGHT, AND YOU NEED TO GET THE OPTIMUM WATER
LEVEL STRAIGHT---
A. YEAH.
Q. ---IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 306
A. CHOOSE YOUR RIGHT MIX OF VEGETATION---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---AND FIGURE OUT WHAT YOUR, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOUR
INFLOW P CONCENTRATION IS GOING TO BE AND HOW
FAST IT'S GOING TO MOVE THROUGH THE SYSTEM. IF
YOU PUMP IT THROUGH TOO FAST, IT MAY NOT BE THERE
LONG ENOUGH TO GET MAXIMUM STORAGE OR MAXIMUM
UPTAKE.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT YOUR RETENTION
RATE. OKAY. AND WHAT ELSE?
A. FLOW RATE, RETENTION RATE.
Q. OKAY.
A. I DON'T KNOW, I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE RIGHT
OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.
Q. IS DUKE WETLAND CENTER DOING THIS? ARE YOU DOING
THIS TYPE OF RESEARCH?
A. I'M NOT INVOLVED IN ANYTHING LIKE THAT, AND I
DON'T REALLY -- I DON'T KNOW -- NONE OF MY
COWORKERS IS.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHY?
A. NO, I DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHY. I GUESS WE
HAVEN'T BEEN HIRED TO DO THAT.
Q. WHAT ARE YOU HIRED TO DO?
A. BASICALLY TO PERFORM RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 307
AND TRY TO DETERMINE THE RELATIVE ROLE OF
ENRICHMENT AND HYDROPERIOD ON THESE CHANGES,
DETERMINE WHAT THE CHANGES ARE AND HOW THEY'RE
AFFECTED BY THE ENRICHMENT PROCESS AND BY
HYDROPERIOD.
MS. PONZOLI: WOULD YOU READ ME THE
ANSWER BACK AGAIN?
(THEREUPON, THE ANSWER APPEARING
ON PAGE 306, LINE 25 AND PAGE
307, LINES 2-6, INCLUSIVE, WAS
REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OKAY. AND YOU'VE BEEN
RESEARCHING FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS, RIGHT?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. WHAT CHANGES HAVE YOU FOUND?
A. WELL, AGAIN THE FERTILIZER STUDY, WHICH I TALKED
ABOUT THIS MORNING, SHOWS AN INCREASE IN
PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE BY THE VEGETATION AND A DECLINE
IN THE STANDING CROP BIOMASS OF THIS UTRICULARIA-
PERIPHYTON COMPLEX.
Q. AND WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT THE RELATIVE
ROLE OF HYDROPERIOD AND NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT?
A. OH, IT SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT BOTH ENHANCED
HYDROPERIOD AND NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT CAUSE AN
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 308
INCREASE IN PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT
ACCUMULATION. BUT, AGAIN, THIS IS MORE
OBSERVATIONAL DATA AND NOT PERFORMED UNDER
CONTROLLED EXPERIMENTS, SO I DON'T FEEL I CAN
SAY -- BE AS CONFIDENT ABOUT THAT AS THE OTHER
INFORMATION.
Q. OKAY. DID ANYONE EVER GIVE YOU A TIME FRAME
WITHIN WHICH IT MIGHT BE ADVANTAGEOUS TO COME UP
WITH ANSWERS?
A. NOT -- NOBODY'S EVER TALKED TO ME ABOUT ANY KIND
OF TIME LINES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. ONE THING,
TO DO A GOOD JOB WITH SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, YOU
CAN'T JUST CRANK IT OUT, YOU KNOW, IN THREE WEEKS
OR HOWEVER LONG YOU WANT TO TRY TO DO IT.
Q. OKAY. SO, IN THREE AND A HALF YEARS, YOU'VE
REACHED THOSE RELATIVELY FOUR CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU
GAVE ME?
A. I WOULD SAY SO, YEAH. THERE ARE SOME OTHER
CONCLUSIONS. SODIUM ENRICHMENT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE
A PROBLEM.
Q. OKAY. THAT'S FIVE. ARE YOUR CLIENTS PRETTY WELL
HAPPY WITH THE PACE AT WHICH YOU'RE PRODUCING
ANSWERS TO THEM?
A. YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK DR. RICHARDSON ABOUT THAT, I
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 309
DON'T -- THEY DON'T GET ME ON THE PHONE,
FORTUNATELY, AND ASK ME, YOU KNOW.
Q. DON'T YOU THINK YOU WOULD HEAR IF THEY WEREN'T
HAPPY?
A. PROBABLY THROUGH HIM, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. SO, WE CAN ASSUME THEY'RE HAPPY?
A. AGAIN, I DEFER TO HIM ON -- I GUESS THEY'RE FAIRLY
HAPPY. THEY HAVEN'T CUT OFF THE FUNDING SO.
Q. OKAY. IF YOU WERE TO DETER -- IF YOU WERE TRYING
TO DETERMINE THE RELATIVE ROLES OF ENRICHMENT IN
HYDROPERIOD -- I GUESS TO RETURN TO THE QUESTION
THAT I'VE ASKED YOU SEVERAL TIMES -- WHY DIDN'T
YOU USE THAT INFORMATION THAT WAS AVAILABLE AT
THE 217 GAUGE, WHERE YOU HAD WATER LEVEL
INFORMATION?
A. I DON'T KNOW. AND AT THE TIME WE STARTED THIS
WORK, I DIDN'T -- I WOULDN'T KNOW THE 217 GAUGE,
YOU KNOW, IF IT -- IF I RAN INTO IT ON A BOAT OR
SOMETHING.
Q. WHEN DID YOU BECOME AWARE THAT THERE WAS WATER
LEVEL INFORMATION AVAILABLE AT 217?
A. I THINK PROBABLY ABOUT -- I DON'T KNOW -- IN THE
PAST TWO YEARS. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. BUT,
GENERALLY, WHEN YOU START TRYING TO WRITE THIS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 310
UP IS WHEN YOU START LOOKING FOR THE INFORMATION
TO SEE HOW THE EXISTING LITERATURE CAN -- CAN
HELP, YOU KNOW, HELP SUPPORT OR REFUTE YOUR
CONCLUSIONS.
Q. OKAY. OF THE VARIOUS STUDIES THAT YOU DESIGNED,
OR YOU KNOW THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER HAS DESIGNED,
HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE ACTUALLY EXAMINED
HYDROPERIOD?
A. WE HAVE ONE -- DR. RICHARDSON'S IN CHARGE OF ONE
STUDY RELATING -- LOOKING AT THE EFFECTS OF
HYDROPERIOD AND PHOSPHORUS AND DISTURBANCE.
Q. IS THIS ONE THAT'S LOCATED NEAR THE FERTILIZER
STUDY IN 2B?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT'S THE HYPOTHESIS OF THAT?
A. I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE, AGAIN, THAT'S -- I'M
NOT REALLY -- I'M NOT INVOLVED IN THAT STUDY,
SO---
Q. OKAY. AND HOW MANY OTHER STUDIES HAS THE DUKE
WETLAND CENTER DEVISED?
A. TO LOOK AT THE EFFECTS OF HYDROPERIOD?
Q. NO. YOU SAID THAT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT'S BEEN DONE
FOR HYDROPERIOD.
A. WELL, LET ME BACK UP, THE TWO GREENHOUSE STUDIES
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 311
DID ADDRESS -- TRY TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF
HYDROPERIOD.
Q. OKAY. BY THE GRADUATE STUDENTS?
A. RIGHT.
Q. SO, NOW YOU'VE DONE THE FERTILIZER STUDY, YOU'VE
DONE THE GRADIENT STUDY, YOU'VE DONE THIS STUDY
WHERE YOU WENT ALL OVER -- WELL, THIS ONE WHERE
YOU WENT ALL OVER THE EVERGLADES---
A. AND THE FERTILIZER STUDY IN A KIND OF A
CIRCUMSTANTIAL WAY IS AMENABLE TO LOOKING AT
HYDROPERIOD, BUT IT'S NOT A CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT
IN TERMS OF LIKE MANIPULATING HYDROPERIOD.
Q. IT'S NOT CONTROLLED, AND IT'S AN AREA THAT HAS NO
FLOW. IS THAT RIGHT?
A. WELL, IT HAS A LIMITED FLOW IS MY UNDERSTANDING.
Q. DO YOU KNOW IF IT HAS FLOW IN 2B?
A. I KNOW THAT THEY WERE PUMPING WATER INTO IT THIS
FALL.
Q. YOU SAW THE WATER BEING PUMPED INTO 2B?
A. YEAH, THE GATES WERE OPEN, SO.
Q. OKAY. WHEN THE GATES ARE OPEN, YOU CONSIDER THAT
PUMPED WATER?
A. WELL, IT -- OR IT'S GRAVITY FLOW PUSHING IT INTO
THERE. I DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 312
ACTUALLY -- I MEAN, IT'S PUMPED SOMEWHERE UP THE
LINE.
Q. OKAY. SO, HOW MANY STUDIES ALL TOGETHER HAS
THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER DONE -- SEPARATE
STUDIES?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, THE GRADIENT STUDY IS A BIG
STUDY, BUT IT COULD BE BROKEN DOWN INTO FOUR OR
FIVE DIFFERENT THINGS: THE PEAT ACCRETION WORK,
WHICH I'VE LOOKED AT; DR. QUALLS' WORK ON SURFACE
AND PORE WATER CHEMISTRY; CHANGES IN VEGETATION
THERE, WHICH I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN, BUT WHICH IS
NOT A REALLY HIGH-POWERED STUDY; DR. RADER'S DONE
WORK THERE. THAT'S IN THE GRADIENT.
THE FERTILIZER STUDY CAN ACTUALLY BE BROKEN
DOWN INTO TWO STUDIES, THE EFFECTS ON THE
MACROPHYTES AND THE WORK DR. VYMAZAL DID LOOKING
AT THE PERIPHYTON.
THERE'S THE HYDROPERIOD PHOSPHORUS
DISTURBANCE STUDY THAT DR. RICHARDSON'S INVOLVED
IN.
THE DOSING STUDY, OF COURSE, WHICH IS TRYING
TO ADDRESS THESE, I GUESS, THRESHOLD
CONCENTRATIONS.
AND THEN THE TWO GREENHOUSE STUDIES.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 313
AND, THEN, I DON'T WANT TO EXCLUDE THE
NUMBER FIVE, HERE, WHICH WAS SORT OF A PRELIMINARY
STUDY JUST TO GET A HANDLE ON WHAT BACKGROUND
RATES THE PEAT ACCRETION ARE, AND WHAT BACKGROUND
RATES THE NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION ARE, SORT OF OVER
THE ENTIRE AREA -- OVER CONSERVATION AREAS 2
AND 3, SO.
Q. OKAY. LOOKING AT -- IS THAT ALL? THOSE ARE THE
VARIOUS STUDIES?
A. THAT I CAN THINK OF.
Q. SURE. INTRODUCTION -- ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR --
FIVE PAGES IN -- WHERE IT SAYS, "TOTAL NITROGEN,
PHOSPHORUS, ORGANIC, CARBON, CALCIUM AND SODIUM
WERE MEASURED IN EACH DEPTH INCREMENT. WE CHOSE
THESE NUTRIENTS BECAUSE PRELIMINARY DATA SUGGEST
THAT THESE ELEMENTS WERE ACCUMULATING AT HIGHER
RATES IN AREAS RECEIVING ADD DRAINAGE THAN IN
AREAS THAT DO NOT RECEIVE NUTRIENT ENRICHED
DRAINAGE." WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE SODIUM, DO
YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THIS IS TRUE?
A. I CAN'T EVEN FIND THE PAGE. IS IT IN THE
INTRODUCTION, OR IS IT IN THE METHODS?
Q. THE METHODS.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THE SECOND PAGE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 314
WITNESS: OKAY. I SEE. AND THE
QUESTION WAS?
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE
SODIUM, DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THIS IS TRUE --
THESE NUTRIENTS -- PRELIMINARY DATA HAD SUGGESTED
THEY WERE ACCUMULATING?
A. WELL, EVEN THE SODIUM IS ACCUMULATING AT HIGHER
RATES, BUT IT'S NOT WIDESPREAD LIKE WE THOUGHT IT
MIGHT BE.
Q. OKAY.
A. AND THE REASON, REALLY, THOSE OTHER ONES ARE
ACCUMULATING AT HIGHER RATES, NITROGEN, CARBON,
CALCIUM, AND MAYBE -- WELL, NOT SO MUCH SODIUM --
ARE ACCUMULATING AT HIGHER RATES ONLY BECAUSE THE
RATE OF PEAT ACCRETION HAS BEEN ENHANCED.
Q. AND THE PEAT ACCRETION, WE'VE GOT -- WE'VE GONE
THROUGH THAT, WHY WE THINK IT'S---
A. RIGHT. SO, I MEAN, JUST, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GET AN
INCREASE IN PEAT ACCRETION, YOU'RE -- YOU KNOW,
YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO GET AN INCREASE IN CARBON
ACCUMULATION.
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T HAVE MUCH MORE ON
THIS, DR. CRAFT. LET ME JUST LOOK THROUGH.
MR. McCAUGHAN: BREAK?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 315
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER, AND
A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. I DON'T HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS ON CRAFT NUMBER
SIXTEEN, DR. CRAFT. I'D LIKE TO DO A COUPLE OF
THINGS HERE IN THE REMAINING TIME THIS AFTERNOON.
I'D LIKE TO DO YOUR CV, AND I'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU
EXPLAIN TO ME YOUR SETUP OF EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN OF
THE FERTILIZER STUDY. YOU DID DO THAT DESIGN, DID
YOU NOT?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T WE DO YOUR CV, FIRST,
AND THEN WE'LL BEGIN -- BECAUSE THE FERTILIZER
WILL CARRY OVER TILL TOMORROW. I HAVE SOME MORE I
WANT TO DO WITH SOME OF THE INFORMATION AND THE
WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE THERE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO
GET IT SET UP TODAY. ON YOUR CV -- IT'S CRAFT
NUMBER TWO. DID SAM LEAVE THE COPIES HERE? WELL,
DO YOU NEED A COPY OF IT, DR. CRAFT?
A. IF I HAVE QUESTIONS, I CAN LOOK AT YOURS. HOW
ABOUT THAT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 316
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE YOU TO JUST BRIEFLY
REVIEW FOR ME YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND.
A. CHRONOLOGICALLY, I GRADUATED FROM UNC-ASHEVILLE,
IN 1980 WITH A B.A. IN BIOLOGY. I THINK I GOT A
DISTINCTION IN BIOLOGY; I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT
MEANS, BUT, I THINK IT'S GOOD. I GRADUATED FROM
THE UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE, KNOXVILLE, IN 1983
WITH A MASTER'S DEGREE IN ECOLOGY---
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
A. ---AFTER THE UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE, I ATTENDED
NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY -- GO WOLFPACK --
AND GRADUATED THERE IN 1987 WITH A Ph.D. IN SOIL
SCIENCE.
Q. OKAY. AND YOUR ECOLOGY DEGREE -- YOUR COURSE WORK
FOCUSED ON WHAT?
A. IT WAS MAINLY RELATED TO NUTRIENT CYCLING -- THE
COURSE WORK WAS -- AND ALSO SOME STATISTICS.
Q. YOU TOOK A FAIR NUMBER OF COURSES IN NUTRIENT
CYCLING, DR. CRAFT?
A. I'VE TAKEN A FEW OVER THE COURSE OF MY BACKGROUND,
SURE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 317
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WERE THE NAMES OF THESE COURSES?
A. I TOOK A COURSE AT TENNESSEE THAT WAS CALLED
NUTRIENT CYCLING. AND AT NORTH CAROLINA STATE,
I TOOK A COURSE -- WELL, IT HAD A NUTRIENT --
WELL, ANY KIND OF SOILS WORK, I VIEW AS NUTRIENT
CYCLING -- A COURSE IN SOIL CHEMISTRY, SOIL
PHYSICS, SOIL FERTILITY.
Q. THAT'S REALLY WHAT I WAS THINKING MORE IN TERMS OF
SOIL CHEMISTRY, SOIL PHYSICS---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---THOSE ARE THE NAMES OF THE COURSES.
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND YOUR MASTER'S WORK, WHICH OF THOSE
COURSES DID YOU TAKE?
A. IN MY MASTER'S LEVEL, I ACTUALLY DIDN'T TAKE A LOT
OF SOILS COURSES. I TOOK A SOIL CHEMISTRY COURSE
THERE. I TOOK A COURSE IN FOREST SOILS AND ONE IN
MORPHOLOGY AND GENESIS OF SOILS.
Q. DID YOU DO ANY WETLAND?
A. NO, NOT AT TENNESSEE.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU DO ANY WETLAND WORK IN YOUR WORK AT
NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY?
A. YES, THAT WAS WHERE I WAS INVOLVED IN LOOKING AT
NUTRIENT CYCLING IN CREATED AND NATURAL WETLANDS.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 318
Q. AND THOSE COURSES -- THE NAMES OF THOSE COURSES?
A. AGAIN, ANOTHER COURSE IN SOIL CHEMISTRY, ONE
IN SOIL PHYSICS, ONE IN SOIL FERTILITY, ONE IN
SOIL MORPHOLOGY, GENESIS AND CLASSIFICATION;
THAT'S JUST ONE COURSE. A WETLANDS ECOLOGY
COURSE, TAUGHT AT UNC-CHAPEL HILL. AND A COURSE
IN APPLIED COASTAL ECOLOGY, TAUGHT AT NORTH
CAROLINA STATE. AND I TOOK A COURSE IN -- I TOOK
GEOCHEMISTRY AT NORTH CAROLINA STATE, ALSO.
Q. OKAY. WHAT WAS YOUR MASTER'S THESIS?
A. IT WAS ON THE EFFECTS OF ACID RAIN, BACK WHEN THAT
WAS A HOT TOPIC, ON FOREST FLOOR INVERTEBRATES.
THAT WAS AT TENNESSEE.
Q. HAS THAT PROBLEM BEEN RESOLVED?
A. I DON'T THINK -- IT'S JUST PUT ON THE BACK BURNER.
I DON'T THINK IT'S BEEN RESOLVED. I DON'T THINK
IT'S AS SERIOUS OF AN ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEM AS WE
ALL THOUGHT IT WAS TEN YEARS AGO. AGAIN, I THINK
MORE RESEARCH PROBABLY IS NEEDED, TOO.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT WAS YOUR DISSERTATION?
A. OKAY, THIS IS AT N.C. STATE?
Q. YES, SIR. YOU DIDN'T DO A DISSERTATION AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE?
A. NO, THAT WAS A MASTER'S THESIS; SOMETIMES PEOPLE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 319
CALL THEM THESIS, SOMETIMES DISSERTATION. MY
Ph.D. DISSERTATION WAS ON BASICALLY A COMPARISON
OF NUTRIENT CYCLING IN THE NATURAL VERSUS CREATED
OR CONSTRUCTED OR TRANSPLANTED OR MAN INITIATED
WETLANDS.
Q. CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT?
A. WE -- MY SUPERVISOR -- MY MAJOR PROFESSOR HAS
BEEN INVOLVED IN CREATING COASTAL WETLANDS SINCE
THE LATE 1960'S AND THEY'VE DEVELOPED THE
TECHNOLOGY TO DO REALLY A GOOD JOB OF CREATING A
WETLAND AND ALSO MAKING IT PERSIST, YOU KNOW,
THAT IT WILL -- AFTER TEN YEARS, YOU CAN GO BACK
AND IT'S STILL A WETLAND. BUT NOBODY HAD REALLY
LOOKED AT HOW THESE SYSTEMS FUNCTIONED COMPARED TO
NATURAL MARSHES. AND WE KNEW THAT THE VEGETATION
GROWS AND IT LOOKS LIKE A WETLAND, BUT NOBODY
REALLY KNEW HOW THESE SYSTEMS FUNCTIONED IN
TERMS OF NUTRIENT CYCLING, AND THAT IS WHAT I
LOOKED AT. ONE OF THE SPECIFIC THINGS WAS I
LOOKED AT RATES OF SOIL ORGANIC MATTER AND
NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION IN NATURAL VERSUS CREATED
WETLANDS. I LOOKED AT THE ROLE OF THESE CREATED
WETLANDS IN REMOVING N AND P FROM THE WATER
COLUMN, AND ALSO IN TERMS OF -- AS POTENTIAL
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 320
SOURCES OF NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS AND ORGANIC
CARBON TO THE ESTUARY.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THE WORK THAT WAS DONE IN
CREATING COASTAL WETLANDS, WAS THIS BY WAY OF
MITIGATION WORK?
A. THIS WAS TWO THINGS, MITIGATION, BUT ALSO THE
ORIGINAL IMPETUS WAS RELATED TO TRY TO MINIMIZE OR
REDUCE EROSION ON ERODING SHORELINES AND ALSO TO
STABILIZE DREDGE SPOIL. AND THAT WAS FUNDED --
BOTH OF THOSE WERE FUNDED BY THE CORPS OF
ENGINEERS WHO HAD A VESTED INTEREST IN, YOU KNOW,
IN THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.
Q. I REALIZE THIS IS SORT OF A GLOBAL QUESTION, BUT
WHAT WAS THAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN NATURAL
WETLANDS, NUTRIENT CYCLING, AND CREATED WETLANDS?
A. HOW DID THEY DIFFER OR WERE THEY---
Q. RIGHT. RIGHT.
A. WHAT WE BASICALLY FOUND WAS IS THAT CREATED
WETLANDS INITIALLY HAVE VERY LITTLE ORGANIC
MATTER AND NUTRIENTS, PARTICULARLY IF YOU CONVERT
AN UPLAND AREA TO A WETLAND, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO
EXCAVATE DOWN, REMOVE ALL THAT TOPSOIL TO GET THE
ELEVATION DOWN LOW ENOUGH TO WHERE YOU CAN GET
WATER IN THERE AND FLOOD IT. SO, INITIALLY, THERE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 321
WAS A BIG DISCREPANCY THAT CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS
DID NOT HAVE THESE LARGE AMOUNTS OF ORGANIC MATTER
IN NUTRIENTS AND PEAT THAT YOU SEE IN A LOT OF
THESE NATURAL WETLANDS, LIKE THE EVERGLADES. AND
THAT WAS THE DOWNSIDE. BUT THE UPSIDE TO IT IS
THAT WE MEASURED RATES OF NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION IN
THESE WETLANDS AND WE FOUND THAT ALTHOUGH THEY
DIFFER IN TERMS OF THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF ORGANIC
MATTER IS THAT THE RATES OF ORGANIC MATTER IN
NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION APPEAR TO BE SIMILAR BETWEEN
THE TWO MARSHES, SO THAT WHILE THEY DIFFER, THE
PROCESSES RESPONSIBLE FOR ORGANIC MATTER
ACCUMULATION AND PEAT ACCUMULATION ARE WORKING AT
THE SAME LEVEL IN BOTH WETLAND TYPES.
Q. ANY OTHER DIFFERENCES OR SIMILARITIES?
A. IN TERMS OF WATER QUALITY, ONE THING WE FOUND WAS
THAT CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS, THE ONES WE WORKED IN
WERE JUST SUCKING UP NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS FROM
THE WATER COLUMN. AND, AGAIN, WE THINK THEY'RE
TAKING IT OUT OF THE WATER COLUMN AND WE THINK
THAT THIS WAS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THERE WAS VERY
LITTLE N AND P THERE TO BEGIN WITH, AND THEY'RE
HAVING TO RELY ON THESE INPUTS OF NITROGEN AND
PHOSPHORUS TO SUSTAIN THE PRODUCTIVITY. AS YOU
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 322
BUILD UP ORGANIC MATTER OVER TIME, YOU DEVELOP
THIS RESERVOIR OF NUTRIENTS IN THE SYSTEM THAT
ALLOWS IT TO RECYCLE SO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO RELY SO
MUCH ON WHAT COMES IN IN THE WATER.
Q. OKAY. IF YOU WERE TO APPLY THOSE GENERAL CONCEPTS
TO CONSTRUCTIVE WETLANDS FOR THE EVERGLADES FOR
WATER QUALITY IMPROVEMENT, WHICH OF THOSE WOULD
YOU APPLY?
A. I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION.
Q. WELL, WHAT -- YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES
AND SIMILARITIES IN HOW CONSTRUCTED AND NATURAL
WETLANDS FUNCTION. IF YOU WERE CONSTRUCTING
WETLANDS FOR THE EVERGLADES, HOW WOULD YOU GO
ABOUT IT?
A. THE ONE THING IS THEY ARE CERTAINLY DIFFERENT THAN
THE WET -- THE EVERGLADES IS DIFFERENT FROM THE
WETLANDS IN NORTH CAROLINA. WE DON'T HAVE THE
UNDERLYING LIMESTONE THAT IS FOUND IN SOUTH
FLORIDA, SO WE DEAL WITH SANDY SUBSTRATES
UNDERLYING IT. AGAIN, I THINK IN TERMS OF OUR
KIND OF WORK, THE CONSTRUCTIVE WETLANDS, YOU KNOW,
IF YOU DESIGN THEM RIGHT, GET THE WATER, GET THEM
FLAT, GET THE HYDROLOGY RIGHT, PLANT THE
VEGETATION, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD SUGGEST FROM OUR
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 323
WORK IN NORTH CAROLINA THAT THESE CONSTRUCTIVE
WETLANDS CAN FUNCTION SIMILARLY TO NATURAL
WETLANDS. BUT IT'S A LOT EASIER TO SAY, I CAN
CONSTRUCT THE WETLAND. IT'S REALLY PRETTY
DIFFICULT TO GET THOSE KIND OF THINGS RIGHT, TO
GET THEM GRADED CORRECTLY AND GET THE FLOODING
REGIME RIGHT. I MEAN, IT'S REALLY -- NOT ANY JOE
CAN JUST GO OUT AND DO THAT.
Q. DO YOU HAVE PARTICULAR REASONS TO THINK THAT THEY
WOULD NOT WORK IN THE EVERGLADE SITUATION?
A. NO, NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT THEY WOULDN'T WORK.
Q. OKAY.
A. I THINK IF YOU DESIGN IT RIGHT, THEY PROBABLY --
YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO REASON THAT THEY CAN'T WORK
IF WE GO BACK, OF COURSE, TO THESE IDEAS ABOUT
MAKING SURE THAT YOU DON'T OVERLOAD IT, YOU KNOW,
WITH NUTRIENTS, YOU KNOW, YOU DEFINITELY WANT --
YOU DON'T WANT TO JUST PUSH SO MUCH THROUGH THE
SYSTEM THAT IT CAN'T ASSIMILATE IT.
Q. YOU MENTIONED THAT IDEA BEFORE, THE OVERLOADING;
THAT SEEMS TO BE AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT TO YOU.
IS THAT BECAUSE YOU THINK THAT THERE IS A FAIRLY
SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS COMING INTO THE
EVERGLADES COMPARED TO WHAT APPEAR TO BE THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 324
BACKGROUND LEVELS THE EVERGLADES IS ACCUSTOMED TO
RECEIVING?
A. NO. I JUST REFER TO IT IN TERMS OF, I GUESS
NUMBER SIXTEEN, THAT WE SEE THAT THE SYSTEM OR
THAT ELEVEN THOUSAND PLUS HECTARE AREA CAN
ASSIMILATE ABOUT FIFTY METRIC TONS PER YEAR.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. BUT MY CONCERN IS THAT IF YOU DOUBLE THAT, I DON'T
THINK -- OR IF YOU INCREASE IT ABOVE THAT FIFTY
METRIC TONS PER YEAR, I'M NOT SURE THAT IT CAN
ASSIMILATE -- RESTORE IT, BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE
WHAT IT'S REMOVING AT THIS TIME. YOU MAY BE ABLE
TO ADD SOME MORE AND IT CAN ASSIMILATE IT, BUT I
THINK THAT'S SOMETHING YOU NEED TO BE CONCERNED
ABOUT.
Q. I'M SORRY TO BE SO SLOW TODAY, BUT I DON'T KNOW
WHY YOU KEEP WORRYING ABOUT INCREASING IT, SO
PLEASE EXPLAIN.
A. WELL, I THINK THERE'S PROBLEMS YEAR TO YEAR WITH
RAIN -- YOU KNOW, RAINFALL IS NOT THE SAME AMOUNT,
IT DOESN'T COME AT THE SAME TIME EVERY YEAR DOWN
THERE. AND I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE, AND IT MAY
EVEN BE LIKELY THAT IN ONE WET YEAR, INSTEAD OF
HAVING FIFTY METRIC TONS FLOWING THROUGH THOSE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 325
GATES OR SIXTY, YOU MAY HAVE A YEAR WHERE IT'S
EIGHTY OR A HUNDRED METRIC TONS. AND THOSE ARE
THE YEARS WHERE I THINK THERE'S CAUSE FOR CONCERN
OF HAVING THAT AREA EXPAND.
Q. YOU THINK THE RAINFALL ALONE WOULD ACCOUNT FOR
THAT TYPE OF INCREASED LOAD?
A. NO, NOT THE RAINFALL, BUT JUST THE INCREASE IN
WATER. I MEAN, I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR, I THINK
MY UNDERSTANDING WITH THESE WCA'S IS THEY'RE
MANAGED FOR WATER SUPPLY AND FLOOD CONTROL, AND
THOSE ARE THE PRIORITIES, AND THEN MAYBE THE
PHOSPHORUS INPUT IS SORT OF A SECONDARY PROBLEM,
OR SOMETHING THAT I DON'T THINK A LOT PEOPLE IN
SOUTH FLORIDA WOULD BE AMENABLE TO THE IDEA OF
RESTORING THE HYDROPERIOD TO THE EVERGLADES AND
HAVING THEIR YARDS UNDER THREE FEET OF WATER AFTER
A BIG RAIN OR AFTER A HURRICANE.
Q. HAS ANYONE EVER CONVEYED TO YOU THAT THERE ARE
SOME PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM FUNCTION AS
MORE NATURAL EVERGLADES---
A. TO SEE---
Q. ---THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS?
A. NOBODY HAS ACTUALLY SAID THAT TO ME, BUT I THINK A
LOT OF ENVIRONMENTALIST AND PEOPLE ASSOCIATED WITH
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 326
THE ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS CERTAINLY WOULD LIKE TO
SEE THAT.
Q. HAS ANYONE EVER CONVEYED TO YOU THAT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT MIGHT HAVE CERTAIN IDEAS ABOUT WATER
CONSERVATION AREA 1?
A. I DON'T THINK SO, I MEAN, I'M NOT AWARE OF -- I'M
NOT QUITE SURE WHAT THAT QUESTION IS.
Q. OKAY. THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MIGHT WISH TO
SEE WATER CONSERVATION AREA 1 OR LOXAHATCHEE
NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE FUNCTION AS A MORE
NATURAL EVERGLADE SYSTEM?
A. I CAN SEE WHERE THEY WOULD LIKE THAT, SINCE IT
IS A, YOU KNOW, A WILDLIFE REFUGE. I MEAN, I CAN
UNDERSTAND THAT.
Q. I GUESS NO ONE'S POINTED OUT TO YOU THE "SAVE OUR
EVERGLADES" PROGRAM OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA THAT'S
BEEN UNDER THE LAST THREE GOVERNORS?
A. I THINK I'VE HEARD OF IT, BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF THE
INTRICATE DETAILS OF IT.
Q. YOU JUST SAW THAT PRESIDENT BUSH GAVE THE GOVERNOR
AN AWARD FOR IT OR SOMETHING?
A. NO, NOT EVEN THAT. BUT IT MAY BE JUST AT SOME OF
THESE PROFESSIONAL MEETINGS WHERE SOME OF THESE
PEOPLE ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE AUDUBON SOCIETY.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 327
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OTHER THAN YOUR LOOKING AT PEAT
ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, IS IT FAIR TO
SAY, DR. CRAFT, THAT YOU HAVEN'T APPLIED THIS
PARTICULAR SKILL THAT YOU HAVE IN -- OR STUDY THAT
YOU'VE DONE IN CONSTRUCTING WETLANDS TO THE
EVERGLADES SITUATION?
A. HAVE I APPLIED MY---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---EXPERTISE OR WHATEVER?
Q. YES, SIR, YOUR EXPERTISE.
A. MAINLY, I'VE JUST APPLIED MY UNDERSTANDING OF HOW
ORGANIC MATTER ACCUMULATES TO IT, NOT SO MUCH THE
CONSTRUCTION PHASE. I'VE NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN
CONSTRUCTION OF WETLANDS OTHER THAN THE ACTUAL
PLANTING OF THE VEGETATION, BUT I'VE WORKED ON
ENOUGH SITES AND HAVE BEEN AROUND PEOPLE WHO HAVE
DONE THIS TO GAIN AN UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO GO
ABOUT DOING IT RIGHT. BUT I DO WANT TO POINT
OUT THAT THESE -- WHAT CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS I'VE
WORKED IN -- ARE NOT NEAR AS LARGE AS I THINK WHAT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 328
HAS BEEN PURPOSED FOR THE EVERGLADES; YOU KNOW,
WE'RE TALKING FIVE ACRE, TEN ACRE SITES AS THE
LARGEST SO.
Q. THE SCALE IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.
A. CERTAINLY. BUT I DO THINK THE PROCESSES OPERATE
SIMILARLY IN A, YOU KNOW, FIVE ACRE PEAT BASED
WETLAND VERSUS, YOU KNOW, A TEN THOUSAND ACRE
PEAT BASED WETLAND IN THE SAME -- SUBJECT TO
THE SAME KIND OF CLIMATE AND HYDROLOGY
CONDITIONS.
Q. DID YOU TELL ME YOUR DISSERTATION SUBJECT? I
THINK YOU DID, DIDN'T YOU?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND YOUR WORK EXPERIENCE HAS
GENERALLY BEEN WHAT?
A. I'VE BEEN A POST-DOC MOST OF MY CAREER AFTER
GRADUATE SCHOOL, WHICH IS LIKE A RESEARCH
ASSOCIATE AT A UNIVERSITY.
Q. IS THAT WHAT YOU PRESENTLY ARE?
A. NO. RECENTLY, I'M A RESEARCH ASSISTANT PROFESSOR.
I WAS PROMOTED THIS SUMMER.
Q. IS THAT A TENURED POSITION?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. IT MEANS YOU TEACH AND YOU DO RESEARCH?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 329
A. RIGHT.
Q. IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. IS IT A YEAR-TO-YEAR CONTRACT?
A. IT'S -- CURRENTLY, IT'S A TWO-YEAR CONTRACT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHERE ARE YOU IN THAT CYCLE?
A. I'M, I GUESS, ABOUT SIX MONTHS INTO IT, SO.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOUR POSTDOCTORATE RESEARCH HAS
BEEN ON WHAT?
A. AGAIN, LOOKING AT SOME OF THESE CREATED WETLANDS,
CONTINUING THE WORK, AT LEAST AT NORTH CAROLINA
STATE, ON LOOKING MORE IN-DEPTH AT SOME OF THE
NUTRIENT CYCLING ATTRIBUTES, PORE WATER CHEMISTRY,
SOIL, SOILS EVOLUTION, SOIL GENESIS, AND ALSO
INVESTIGATING THE RESPONSE OF COASTAL WETLANDS TO
RISING SEA LEVEL TO DETERMINE IF THEY CAN KEEP
PACE WITH THE CURRENT RATE OF SEA LEVEL RISE. THE
INTEREST IS THAT GLOBAL WARMING WILL CAUSE A RISE
IN SEA LEVEL AND A LOT OF THESE COASTAL WETLANDS
WILL BE INUNDATED AND SUBMERGED.
Q. IS THERE A LOT OF RESEARCH BEING FUNDED IN GLOBAL
WARMING IN THIS AREA?
A. THERE SEEMS TO BE. I'M NOT A RECIPIENT OF ANY OF
IT, BUT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 330
Q. BUT THERE DO SEEM TO BE FUNDS AVAILABLE FOR THIS
TYPE OF RESEARCH?
A. OH, YES, YES. THAT'S, I THINK, THE ENVIRONMENTAL
RESEARCH OF THE 90'S IS THIS ISSUE OF GREENHOUSE
GASES AND GLOBAL WARMING.
Q. OKAY. ON YOUR STATEMENT OF RESEARCH INTERESTS,
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT APPLIED ENVIRONMENTAL
PROBLEMS. DO YOU SEE YOUR RESEARCH IN THE
EVERGLADES AS AN APPLIED ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH?
A. YEAH, TO A GREAT EXTENT. I ALSO THINK THAT I
HAVE SOME OPPORTUNITY TO DO BASIC RESEARCH,
TOO, RELATING TO THINGS LIKE POLLEN ANALYSIS
AND LEAD 210 AND THOSE SORT OF THINGS. BUT
EVEN THEY HAVE AN APPLIED KIND OF -- THEY CAN
BE APPLIED ALSO.
Q. JUST SO I'M VERY CLEAR, YOUR APPLIED RESEARCH IN
THE EVERGLADES, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT IS TO BE
APPLIED TO THE RESOLUTION OF THE EVERGLADES
PROBLEMS?
A. WELL, I THINK THE DATA THAT WE SPENT MOST OF THE
DAY TALKING ABOUT HAS POTENTIAL APPLICATIONS TO
DETERMINING HOW MUCH PHOSPHORUS THESE STA'S CAN
REMOVE. I MEAN, I THINK IT DOES PROVIDE SOME
USEFUL INFORMATION TO THAT END.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 331
Q. OKAY. YOU SAY THAT YOUR PARTICULAR INTEREST IN
THE ROLE OF WETLANDS IN WATER QUALITY AND IN
GLOBAL BIOGEOCHEMICAL CYCLES. CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO
ME BIOGEOCHEMICAL CYCLES?
A. THAT'S JUST KIND OF A CATCH-ALL WORD THAT WE
ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENTISTS USE NOW. IT BASICALLY
MEANS THAT WE WANT TO LOOK AT THE FLUX OF
NUTRIENTS THROUGH ABOUT EVERY POSSIBLE COMPONENT
THAT WE CAN MEASURE -- AIR, WATER, PLANTS, SOIL,
GROUNDWATER.
Q. I PUT IT IN A PLEADING ONCE, BUT I WASN'T SURE IT
WAS A REAL WORD, BUT I GUESS IT IS.
A. IT'S AN ENVIRONMENTAL BUZZWORD RIGHT NOW.
Q. OKAY. I THINK YOUR LISTING HERE LOOKS LIKE PRETTY
MUCH WHAT YOU'VE TOLD ME, BUT LET ME JUST READ
THROUGH IT.
A. OKAY.
(THEREUPON, MS. PONZOLI REVIEWS DOCUMENT.)
Q. OKAY. I'D LIKE TO MOVE ON, DR. CRAFT, TO THE
FERTILIZER STUDY AND ASK YOU, ARE YOU THE
PRINCIPAL ARCHITECT OF THE FERTILIZER STUDY?
A. YES. I WOULD SAY SO.
Q. OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU BEGIN DESIGNING THIS
STUDY?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 332
A. I WOULD SAY THE SPRING OF 1990 IS WHEN WE SAT DOWN
AND STARTED TO TRY TO JUST WRITE A PROPOSAL, OR
NOT A -- WELL, A PLAN OF WORK. NOT SO MUCH -- IT
IS KIND OF A PROPOSAL, BUT IT'S MORE OF A PLAN OF
WORK.
Q. DID YOU HAVE TO PRESENT IT TO SOMEBODY BEFORE IT
WAS FUNDED?
A. NO. IT WAS -- IT WAS -- I THINK IT WAS FUNDED AND
I JUST HAD TO WRITE IT UP AND PRESENT IT TO
DR. RICHARDSON AND SEE WHETHER HE THOUGHT -- YOU
KNOW, WHAT HE THOUGHT OF IT.
Q. OKAY. HOW DID YOU DO YOUR EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN?
EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU DID THE EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN
FOR THE FERTILIZER STUDY.
A. WELL, WE WANTED TO LOOK AT DIFFERENT EVERGLADES
PLANT COMMUNITIES, SO WE CHOSE A PURE SAWGRASS
STAND, WHICH, AS YOU KNOW, IS THE ONE OF THE --
THE DOMINANT VEGETATION COMPONENT OF THE
EVERGLADES. WE CHOSE A SITE THAT HAD A MIXTURE OF
SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL, ALTHOUGH IT WAS GENERALLY
STILL ABOUT EIGHTY PERCENT SAWGRASS. YOU KNOW,
THE KEY TO THIS STUDY IS TO SET IT UP IN PLOTS
THAT HAVE NOT BEEN EXPOSED -- IN AN AREA THAT HAS
NOT RECEIVED NUTRIENT ENRICHED WATER, SINCE WE ARE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 333
ADDING N AND P, AND WE WANT TO SEE HOW THE PLANTS
RESPOND. AND THEN THE THIRD COMMUNITY WERE THESE
SHALLOW WATER, OPEN WATER SLOUGHS.
Q. SO, YOU WANTED AN UNENRICHED SITE, IS THAT RIGHT?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. OKAY. AND YOU CHOSE -- HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT
CHOOSING YOUR LOCATION?
A. CONSERVATION AREA 2B, WE LOOKED AT SOME OF THE --
WELL, ONE, WE NEEDED A SITE THAT WAS ACCESSIBLE
WITH THE VEHICLE, BECAUSE I DID NOT WANT TO BE --
HAVE TO DEPEND ON SOMEBODY TO TAKE ME OUT IN AN
AIR BOAT. SO, CONSERVATION AREA 2B FIT THAT
BILL.
Q. YOU COULD WALK TO YOUR SITES, IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. RIGHT. YOU CAN DRIVE DOWN ONE OF THE DIKES AND
THEN WALK OUT TO THEM.
Q. OKAY.
A. THE SECOND THING WAS, IS CONSERVATION AREA 2B, IT
WAS ACCESSIBLE. THE DATA THAT WE HAD FROM THE
CANAL BETWEEN 2A AND 2B INDICATED THAT PHOSPHORUS
ENRICHMENT OR NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT HAD NOT
PENETRATED THAT FAR SOUTH YET. AND THE OTHER
THING WAS IS THE SWIM PLAN STATED THAT THERE WAS
NO REGULATION SCHEDULE FOR CONSERVATION AREA 2B,
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 334
SO THAT WE WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE UPS AND
DOWNS OF THE WATER LEVELS, AND ALSO THAT IF IT IS
NOT SUBJECT TO A REGULATION SCHEDULE, IT MIGHT BE
MORE MIMIC -- IT MIGHT MIMIC MORE OF THE
HISTORICAL EVERGLADES IN TERMS OF RELYING ON
PRECIPITATION -- RAINFALL -- FOR MOST OF ITS
WATER.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU DO BACKGROUND LEVELS OF ENRICHMENT
BEFORE YOU CHOSE YOUR SITE?
A. WE HAD SOME PRE-TREATMENT. YEAH, WE COLLECTED
SOME SOIL SAMPLES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT DID THEY SHOW?
A. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE -- GO LOOK AT THE
DATA. I CAN'T STATE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.
Q. DID EACH OF YOUR SITES INDICATE THAT IT WAS AN
UNENRICHED SITE, BY WHATEVER STANDARDS YOU APPLIED
AT THAT TIME?
A. OH, I THINK SO. I MEAN, AGAIN, I'D HAVE TO LOOK
AT THE NUMBERS.
Q. WOULD YOU KNOW WHERE YOU COULD LOCATE THEM? ARE
THEY IN THE '91 ANNUAL REPORT OR THE '92 ANNUAL
REPORT?
A. I'M NOT SURE. I MEAN, I CAN'T SAY OFF THE TOP OF
MY HEAD. I MEAN, I COULD TRY TO FIND THEM BY
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 335
TOMORROW SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT.
Q. COULD YOU SORT OF LOCATE WHAT THE PRE-TREATMENT,
YOU KNOW---
A. OKAY.
Q. ---YOU MEASURED WHAT -- DID YOU MEASURE SURFACE
WATER?
A. NO. WE JUST MEASURED SOIL, NITROGEN AND
PHOSPHORUS.
Q. YOU MEASURED N AND P AND THE PORE WATER, OR JUST
THE SOIL?
A. IN THE SOIL.
Q. OKAY. AND CAME UP WITH WHAT YOU THOUGHT WERE
UNENRICHED. EVEN AT THE MIXED SAWGRASS/CATTAIL
SITE?
A. AT ALL THREE SITES, WE TOOK SOIL SAMPLES AND
MEASURED TOTAL NITROGEN AND TOTAL PHOSPHORUS.
Q. SO, YOU CHOSE IT FOR ACCESSIBILITY. IT DIDN'T
HAVE A REGULATION SCHEDULE. SO, IT DEPENDED,
YOU FELT, MORE ON RAINFALL THAN REGULATION
FLOWS. WERE THERE ANY OTHER FACTORS THAT YOU
CONSIDERED?
A. WELL, OF COURSE, WE HAD -- YOU KNOW, WE
SUBJECTIVELY TRIED TO PICK AREAS THAT WERE
UNIFORM SAWGRASS STANDS WHERE WE COULD PUT OUR
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 336
PLOTS IN, AND ALSO STANDS THAT HAD A MIXTURE OF --
A FAIRLY EVEN MIXTURE OF SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL,
SO, THAT WE COULD MAKE SURE, FOR EXAMPLE, AT THE
MIXED SITE, EACH PLOT HAD SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL IN
IT.
Q. AND WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR AT THE SLOUGH?
A. AGAIN, THERE, JUST A MORE UNIFORM COVER.
ELEOCHARIS SEEMED TO BE AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT,
SO WE MADE SURE WE HAD THAT IN THE PLOTS, AND, OF
COURSE, THE UTRICULARIA-PERIPHYTON MAT. AND AT
ALL SITES, WE HAD TO TRY TO AVOID THE AIR BOAT
TRAILS, WHICH SEEMED TO BE KIND OF A PROBLEM IN
PLACES OUT THERE -- AIR BOAT TRAFFIC.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU EVALUATE THE VEGETATION IN ANY
QUANTITATIVE MANNER, I MEAN, OTHER THAN JUST SORT
OF EYEBALLING IT AND DECIDING THAT IT WAS HALF
CATTAIL, HALF SAWGRASS?
A. NO, WE EYEBALLED IT TO PUT THE PLOTS IN. BUT
THEN WE TOOK PRE-TREATMENT -- WE CLIPPED PLOTS
BEFORE WE STARTED THE STUDY BETWEEN OUR --
ACTUALLY, OUR SAMPLE PLOTS TO GET AN IDEA OF WHAT
THE PLANT COMMUNITY WAS LIKE AT TIME ZERO, BUT
WE DID NOT SAMPLE THE PLOTS BEFORE WE STARTED
FERTILIZING.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 337
Q. OKAY. WHAT TYPE OF A DESIGN DID YOU USE?
A. WE USED A -- WELL, LET ME BACKUP TO MAKE SURE --
YOU CAN VIEW THIS AS ONE BIG EXPERIMENT, BUT YOU
CAN ALSO VIEW IT AS THREE EXPERIMENTS, ONE AT THE
SAWGRASS SITE, ONE AT THE MIXED SITE, ONE AT THE
SLOUGH. BUT EACH HAD THE SAME EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN
AND WE USED A RANDOMIZED COMPLETE BLOCK DESIGN
WITH THREE REPLICATES, AND A TOTAL OF NINE
TREATMENTS, I THINK.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU CONSIDER THE APPROPRIATENESS OF A
RANDOMIZED DESIGN FOR WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A
HETEROGENEOUS SYSTEM?
A. I DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION.
Q. DO YOU SEE THE EVERGLADES AS A HETEROGENEOUS
SYSTEM?
A. SURE, IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL BIG PATTERN, YES.
Q. SURE. OKAY. IS A RANDOMIZED DESIGN APPROPRIATE
IN THAT TYPE OF A SYSTEM?
A. WELL, THAT'S WHY WE STRATIFIED IT BY VEGETATION
TYPE, SO WE WENT TO THE PURE SAWGRASS STAND, SO WE
FILTERED OUT ANY PROBLEMS. THERE WAS NO CATTAIL
AT ANY -- YOU KNOW, WE MADE SURE THAT THERE WAS NO
CATTAIL IN ANY OF THOSE PLOTS, OR EVEN NEAR ANY OF
THOSE PLOTS. SO, IN ONE WAY, YOU COULD SAY WE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 338
STRATIFIED WHERE WE SET OUR PLOTS UP BY
VEGETATION, SAWGRASS, MIXED, SAWGRASS, CATTAIL,
SLOUGH.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU FEEL ANY NEED TO HAVE A PURE
CATTAIL SITE?
A. WELL, THE PROBLEM WITH THAT WAS WE COULDN'T SEEM
TO FIND A PURE CATTAIL SITE IN CONSERVATION
AREA 2B.
Q. HAVE YOU DONE ANY QUANTIFICATION OF THE VEGETATION
FROM THE TIME YOU STARTED, TO NOW, IN THE AREAS
SURROUNDING YOUR FERTILIZER STUDY?
A. NO. WE HAVEN'T SAMPLED OUTSIDE OF THE PLOTS SINCE
THOSE PRE-TREATMENT SAMPLES.
Q. OKAY. YOU'VE ONLY SAMPLED INSIDE?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO YOU HAVE YOUR RANDOMIZED
DESIGN. I THINK YOU MENTIONED EARLIER TODAY THAT
THE PEAT IN 2B IS MARLY. IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. IT'S NOT AS DEEP, AS THICK AS IN 2A---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---AND IT SEEMS TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE MINERAL
MATERIAL IN IT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DID THAT CONCERN YOU IN REGARD
TO YOUR DESIGN?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 339
A. NOT SO MUCH, BECAUSE ALL OUR PLOTS HAD THE SAME
KIND OF -- YOU KNOW, THEY ALL HAD SIMILAR AMOUNTS
OF THIS MINERAL MATERIAL. THEY HAD SIMILAR CARBON
CONCENTRATIONS, I THINK, ORGANIC CARBON.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE OVERALL
EVERGLADES HAS THAT TYPE OF SOIL TYPE?
A. NO, I DON'T KNOW. BUT I DO KNOW THAT AS YOU MOVE
SOUTH INTO 3A, THE SOILS DO GET THINNER AND THEY
DO BECOME MUCH -- 2B IS REALLY PROBABLY MORE
REPRESENTATIVE OF CONSERVATION AREA 3, YOU KNOW,
BUT THAT AGAIN ENCOMPASSES ABOUT FIFTY PERCENT OF
THE EVERGLADES SO.
Q. OF ALL -- OF ALL OF THREE, TO THE BEST OF YOUR
KNOWLEDGE?
A. WELL, JUST FROM WHERE WE SAMPLED, WE FOUND THAT
THE PEATS WERE MUCH THINNER IN 3A THAN IN 2A. AND
MY UNDERSTANDING WHEN YOU GO INTO THE LOXAHATCHEE,
THE PEATS ARE EVEN DEEPER AND THEY'RE ALSO OF A
DIFFERENT NATURE.
Q. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN YOUR DESIGN?
A. NO. I MEAN, WE RANDOMIZED THE TREATMENTS, YOU
KNOW, WITHIN EACH REPLICATE, OF COURSE, WHICH IS
WHAT YOU DO -- THIS IS WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU SET UP
A STATISTICAL DESIGN.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 340
Q. DID THE SOIL THAT LORI SUTTER USE COME FROM THIS
SITE?
A. IT CAME FROM NEARBY. IT DID COME FROM 2B, YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHO COLLECTED IT?
A. I BELIEVE BOB JOHNSON AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE
WERE INVOLVED IN THAT.
Q. DO YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHERE IN 2B IT CAME FROM?
A. I KNOW THAT IT CAME WITHIN PROBABLY A QUARTER OF A
MILE OF OUR SAWGRASS SITE. WE COULD PROBABLY GO
BACK AND FIND WHERE IT WAS DUG OUT EVEN. BUT, I
MEAN, IT WOULD TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME.
Q. YEAH. IF THERE ARE HOLES THERE, STILL?
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. AND WHERE IS THE HYDROLOGY EXPERIMENT
LOCATED IN RELATION TO THE SAWGRASS?
A. THE HYDROLOGY EXPERIMENT IS LOCATED BETWEEN THESE
TWO, BUT IT'S ADJACENT TO THE SAWGRASS SITE.
Q. IT'S CLOSER TO THE SAWGRASS CATTAIL MIXTURE?
A. NO, IT'S ADJACENT---
Q. OH, CLOSER. I'M SORRY. IT'S CLOSER TO THE
SAWGRASS?
A. ---I MEAN, IT'S JUST TWENTY METERS AWAY, IF
THAT -- TWENTY, FIFTY METERS. IT'S JUST RIGHT
NEXT TO IT. SO, THAT, AGAIN, YOU CAN -- IF
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 341
SOMEBODY NEEDS TO DO WORK IN ONE SITE AND SOMEBODY
IN ANOTHER SITE, YOU CAN PULL UP TO THE SAME PLACE
AND---
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU TOLD ME HERE EARLIER WHEN I
ASKED YOU IF THERE WERE FLOW IN 2B, I THINK, YOU
SAID THERE WAS NO FLOW, BUT THAT THERE WERE GATED
RELEASES. WAS THAT ACCURATE?
A. WHAT -- WHEN WE ORIGINALLY SET IT UP, THE SWIM
PLAN SAID THAT -- WHAT HAPPENED WAS IN THE 60'S,
2A AND 2B WERE ONE BIG AREA. AND APPARENTLY 2B
HAD LEAKY -- THE ROCK BENEATH IT WAS LEAKY AND DID
NOT HOLD WATER. SO, SOMETIME IN THE 60'S, THEY
RAN A DIKE TO SEPARATE 2A FROM 2B, BECAUSE THEY
WERE NOT ABLE TO HOLD WATER DOWN THERE. AND, SO,
AT THAT TIME -- AND THEN, OF COURSE, IN THE TEXT,
THEY SAID THAT THERE WAS NO REGULATION SCHEDULE
SET UP FOR THAT, BUT AS I'VE SAID NOW, THIS
SUMMER, APPARENTLY WHEN WATER LEVELS GET REALLY
HIGH IN 2A, THEY DO RELEASE SOME WATER INTO 2B---
Q. IS THERE---
A. ---BUT, THEY DON'T TRY TO MAINTAIN THE LEVEL IN
THERE.
Q. OKAY. IS THERE SIGNIFICANT SEEPAGE INTO 2B, TO
YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 342
A. I DON'T KNOW. I'M SURE THERE'S SOME SEEPAGE
THROUGH -- UNDER THE DIKE, I MEAN, ESPECIALLY IF
THERE'S A HEAD -- A HYDROSTATIC HEAD AND THE
WATER'S HIGHER IN 2A THAN IN 2B.
Q. UH-HUH (YES). OKAY. SO, YOU DID YOUR
PRE-TREATMENTS AND YOU SET UP YOUR RANDOMIZED
DESIGN, YOU DID YOUR REPLICATES. TELL ME HOW IT'S
CONSTRUCTED.
A. IT'S ESSENTIALLY A -- AT EACH SITE, THERE ARE
TWENTY-SEVEN PLOTS AND EACH PLOT IS TWO METERS ON
EACH SIDE. IT'S ESSENTIALLY A -- WELL, ALMOST A
SIX FOOT BY SIX FOOT SQUARE. IT'S A LITTLE BIT
BIGGER THAN THAT.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. WE USED THIS PLEXIGLASS OR PLASTIC SIDING THAT WAS
JOINED AT THE CORNERS WITH WOODEN STAKES, AND THE
STAKES WERE POINTED, AND ONE PERSON GOT AT EACH
CORNER AND WE PUSHED IT INTO THE GROUND. FIRST,
WE HAD TO USE A SHOVEL TO DIG A LITTLE TRENCH TO
GET THE SIDE TO GO INTO THE SOIL. SO, THEY WERE
PUSHED AROUND TWENTY CENTIMETERS INTO THE PEAT
SURFACE.
Q. SO, THEY EXTEND TWENTY CENTIMETERS DOWN INTO THE
PEAT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 343
A. APPROXIMATELY, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. SIX FOOT BY SIX FOOT, OR TWO METERS BY TWO
METERS.
A. YEAH.
Q. YOU HAD SOME PROBLEMS WITH MAINTAINING THE WATER
INSIDE THEM, DID YOU NOT?
A. NOT WITH MAINTAINING THE WATER -- THEY'RE NOT LEAK
FREE, AND WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY WANT THEM TO BE
LEAK FREE BECAUSE WE ALSO WANT TO HAVE SOME
EXCHANGE OF WATER TO BE MORE SIMILAR TO THE
EVERGLADES. THE WATER WOULD STAGNATE IF THEY
WERE, YOU KNOW, IF THERE WAS NO SEEPAGE.
Q. DID YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH LEAKAGE?
A. THERE WERE TIMES INITIALLY WHERE WE'D THINK WE
WERE LOSING SOME OF THE FERTILIZER OUT OF THE
CORNERS OF THE PLOTS.
Q. OKAY. WHAT LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT?
A. WE HAD -- WE PUT SOME BROMIDE INTO SOME OF THE
PLOTS TO SEE HOW LONG IT WAS RETAINED; AND WE ALSO
SAMPLED AT EACH OF THE FOUR CORNERS OUTSIDE THE
PLOTS TO MEASURE FOR BROMIDE. AND WE FOUND SMALL
AMOUNTS OF BROMIDE IN THE CORNERS; AND WE ALSO
FOUND THAT THE BROMIDE DIDN'T STAY IN THE PLOTS AS
LONG AS WE MIGHT HAVE LIKED IT TO.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 344
Q. OKAY. THE BROMIDE BEING A TRACER THAT YOU---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---COULD TELL---
A. IT'S NOT TAKEN UP.
Q. OKAY. OKAY. AND IT WOULD ESCAPE TOO RAPIDLY?
A. RIGHT, OR IT WOULD ESCAPE FASTER THAN WE THOUGHT
IT WOULD, SO.
Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A. SO, WE TOOK -- WE CUT LITTLE PIECES OF INSULATION,
ESSENTIALLY FOAM -- THE PROBLEM WAS THE SIDING
WAS WAVY, IT WAS NOT A FLAT SMOOTH SIDE, IT WAS --
THERE WERE LITTLE -- I'M NOT SURE HOW YOU -- WHAT
YOU CALL IT -- BUT IT'S WAVY, IT GOES LIKE THIS
(WITNESS MOTIONING).
Q. CORRUGATED?
A. CORRUGATED WOULD BE GOOD. I THINK THAT MIGHT --
SO, WE PUT FOAM IN EACH OF THE LITTLE CORRUGATION
PARTS WHERE THERE WAS A LITTLE OPENING -- MAYBE
THAT BIG -- TO TRY TO INHIBIT OR RESTRICT THE
MOVEMENT OF WATER OUT OF THE PLOTS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. FROM THE TIME YOU STARTED YOUR
EXPERIMENT UP WOULD HAVE BEEN WHEN, DO YOU
REMEMBER THE DATE?
A. AUGUST OF '90.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 345
Q. OKAY. AUGUST OF '90. AND YOU DISCOVERED THAT
YOUR BROMIDE -- DID YOU USE THE BROMIDE FROM THE
BEGINNING, THE TRACER?
A. NO. WE DID THAT IN NOVEMBER---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---AFTER IT HAD BEEN GOING FOR THREE MONTHS.
Q. OKAY. OKAY. SO, IN NOVEMBER, YOU USE YOUR
BROMIDE, YOU DISCOVER YOUR TRACER -- THROUGH YOUR
TRACER THAT YOU'RE HAVING MORE LEAKAGE THAN YOU
WANTED. IS THAT FAIR?
A. CERTAINLY, CERTAINLY, YEAH.
Q. SO, YOU FOAM UP THIS PROBLEM?
A. YEAH.
Q. WHEN DO YOU BEGIN COLLECTING DATA AGAIN?
A. WELL, WE COLLECTED DATA UP UNTIL THAT TIME, AND
THEN I THINK WE HAD A LULL. WE PUT THE FOAM IN
AND THEN WE STARTED COLLECTING DATA AGAIN IN APRIL
OF '91. SO, WE WENT THROUGH ABOUT A THREE OR FOUR
MONTH PERIOD THERE IN THE WINTER -- THREE
MONTHS -- WHERE WE DIDN'T DO ANY SAMPLE
COLLECTION---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---AND ALL THIS INVOLVED WAS JUST WATER SAMPLING
IN THE PLOTS.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 346
Q. THE EARLY DATA WAS JUST WATER SAMPLING?
A. RIGHT. WE MEASURED WATER LEVELS, AND WE WOULD
TAKE WATER SAMPLES TO MEASURE NITROGEN AND
PHOSPHORUS, BASICALLY.
Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU DID YOUR FINAL ANALYSIS, DID YOU
ELIMINATE THIS DATA AS DATA YOU CONSIDERED FOR
YOUR CONCLUSIONS OR WHATEVER YOU'VE DRAWN FROM
YOUR FERTILIZER STUDY -- THIS FIRST?
A. NO, WE DIDN'T ELIMINATE IT.
Q. WHY NOT?
A. WELL, I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY
ELIMINATING DATA. WHICH OF THE DATA?
Q. I'M TAKING ABOUT THOSE FIRST MONTHS BETWEEN
AUGUST AND NOVEMBER WHEN YOU HAD MORE LEAKAGE
THAN YOU HAD ANTICIPATED YOU WOULD HAVE FROM THE
SITES.
A. WE HAVE THAT DATA, BUT WE'VE NEVER WRITTEN IT UP.
I'VE JUST NOT GOTTEN AROUND TO WRITING UP THE
WATER CHEMISTRY DATA. THIS IS SOMETHING I HOPE TO
DO IN THE NEXT SIX MONTHS, AND WILL BE IN NEXT
YEAR'S ANNUAL REPORT.
Q. OKAY. LET ME DIVERT FOR ONE SECOND. I HAVE BEEN
TOLD RECENTLY THAT THE '92 ANNUAL REPORT IS A
DRAFT. IS THAT ACCURATE?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 347
A. THE CHAPTER ON THE FERTILIZER STUDY, OR THE WHOLE
THING?
Q. THE WHOLE THING IS WHAT I WAS TOLD, THAT IT WAS A
DRAFT.
A. I THINK THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD ASSESSMENT, YEAH, IT
IS A DRAFT.
Q. OKAY. IT DOESN'T SAY DRAFT. IN FAIRNESS.
A. I KNOW.
Q. OKAY.
A. BUT, I THINK -- WELL, DR. RICHARDSON CAN'T SAY
ANYTHING. BUT, I THINK WE DID REACH AN AGREEMENT
THAT -- THERE WERE A LOT OF TYPOS, AND THERE WERE
SOME ERRORS IN THERE THAT WE FELT LIKE WE NEEDED
TO CORRECT, AND THEN TO PUT OUT A NEW EDITION OF
IT.
Q. OKAY. WHEN WILL WE SEE A NEW EDITION OF THE
ANNUAL REPORT?
A. I WOULD SAY PROBABLY IN EARLY JANUARY. I THINK
WITHIN THE NEXT FOUR TO SIX WEEKS, CERTAINLY.
IT'S NOT THAT FAR FROM BEING CORRECTED.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHICH CHAPTERS HAD TYPOS OR
ERRORS?
A. ALL OF THEM.
Q. ALL OF THEM?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 348
A. YEAH. WELL, I CAN'T -- I KNOW THAT MINE HAD SOME,
SO -- AND I THINK MOST EVERYBODY ELSE DID ALSO.
Q. IN YOUR WORK, WHAT WERE THE ERRORS?
A. IN THE FERTILIZER STUDY, I KNOW I MISIDENTIFIED A
FERN THAT WE'VE CORRECTED. I THINK THERE WERE
TYPOS. IN THE GRADIENT STUDY THAT WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT, THE BULK DENSITIES ON THE 10A TRANSECT WERE
NOT CALCULATED CORRECTLY, SO, I HAD TO GO BACK AND
MAKE SURE THEY WERE -- AND RECALCULATE THEM, AND
MAKE SURE THEY WERE CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. WHO POINTED THESE ERRORS OUT?
A. JOHN ZAHINA TOLD ME ABOUT THE FERN. AND I THINK I
WAS GOING BACK THROUGH THE GRADIENT STUDY TRYING
TO GET IT SET UP, YOU KNOW, TO SEND TO A JOURNAL
AND I REALIZED -- I WAS GOING BACK LOOKING AT THE
RAW DATA AND REALIZING THAT THE NUMBERS WEREN'T
CALCULATED RIGHT ON THE "A" LINE -- THE BULK
DENSITIES WERE NOT.
Q. OKAY. ANY OTHER ERRORS IN YOUR WORK?
A. I'M SURE THERE WERE SOME TYPOS. BUT THOSE WERE
THE MAJOR THINGS, CERTAINLY.
Q. OKAY.
A. YOU KNOW, THE CONCLUSIONS DON'T CHANGE OR ANYTHING
LIKE THAT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 349
Q. OKAY. WHAT WERE THE OTHER ERRORS IN OTHER
PEOPLE'S WORK?
A. I DON'T KNOW. BUT I KNOW THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF
TYPOGRAPHIC, MISSPELLED WORDS AND THAT SORT OF
THING. AND I THINK OCCASIONALLY MAYBE A SENTENCE
HAD BEEN LEFT OUT.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU PUT A DOCUMENT TOGETHER THAT
IS THIS BIG AND YOU'RE -- YOU KNOW, YOU'RE KIND OF
IN A HURRY TO DO IT AND YOU HAVE A DEADLINE -- HAD
WE HAD MORE TIME, I THINK WE COULD HAVE DONE A
BETTER JOB, BUT THAT'S WHY WE'RE WORKING ON IT
NOW.
Q. OKAY. IS THE APPENDICES -- WILL THAT COME OUT
AHEAD OF THE FINAL DRAFT OF THE '92 ANNUAL
REPORT?
A. I THINK IT WILL COME OUT AFTERWARDS. IT WILL COME
OUT AFTERWARDS, BECAUSE WE FEEL LIKE THE TEXT AND
THE INTERPRETATION OF THE DATA IS MORE IMPORTANT
AT THIS POINT THAN THE RAW NUMBERS.
Q. BUT, IF THE TEXT AND THE INTERPRETATION ONLY NEED
MINOR TYPOGRAPHICAL CORRECTIONS, WHAT'S THE
PROBLEM WITH GETTING THE APPENDICES OUT, SO WE'D
HAVE THE DATA?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 350
A. WE JUST WANT TO GET IT OUT FIRST, I THINK, IS TO
PUT OUT THE REVISED COPY OF THE ANNUAL REPORT. I
DON'T KNOW. THAT, TO ME, AND I THINK TO EVERYBODY
ELSE, IS A HIGHER PRIORITY.
Q. DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE EARLY JANUARY?
A. I THINK SO. AND, AGAIN, MAYBE YOU SHOULD TALK TO
SOMEBODY OFF THE RECORD WHO HAS A BETTER
UNDERSTANDING OF WHEN IT WILL COME OUT. IT'S NOT
FAR AWAY -- I MEAN, I DON'T THINK.
Q. ARE ALL OF YOU WORKING ON GETTING IT FINALIZED?
A. WE ARE TRYING TO---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---I HOPE TO FINISH MINE UP NEXT WEEK.
Q. IS THERE A DEADLINE THAT'S BEEN SET FOR WHEN THE
DIFFERENT CHAPTERS HAVE TO BE SUBMITTED TO
WHOMEVER IS COORDINATING THIS?
A. I DON'T THINK SO---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---BUT, OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU PUT SOMETHING OUT AND
YOU FIND A FAR NUMBER OF TYPOS AND MISSPELLINGS
AND THAT SORT OF THING, YOU WANT TO GO BACK AND
THEN FIX IT AND JUST GET IT BACK OUT AS SOON AS
POSSIBLE, BUT YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S DONE
RIGHT THE SECOND TIME.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 351
Q. DID THE '91 GO THROUGH THIS SAME PROCESS, THE '91
ANNUAL REPORT?
A. I DON'T KNOW. IF IT DID, NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT
THIS ONE HAS---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---WE ALL WEREN'T UNDER THE MAGNIFYING GLASS IN
1991, SO.
Q. MAYBE YOU ONLY THOUGHT YOU WEREN'T. BUT, YOU DID
NOT DO A SECOND DRAFT OF THE '91?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T RECALL. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. HOW ABOUT THE PRELIMINARY ASSESSMENT THAT YOU DID
THE PRIOR YEAR IN---
A. AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I DON'T THINK SO FOR THAT
ONE. IT SEEMS LIKE -- ONE THING IS, THE FIRST
YEAR, THERE WERE FEWER PEOPLE, SO THERE WERE LESS
THINGS TO CORRECT. THE SECOND YEAR, THERE WERE
MORE PEOPLE, SO THERE WERE POTENTIAL THINGS, YOU
KNOW. AND THEN THIS YEAR, IT'S A VERY THICK
REPORT AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE QUITE A FEW
TYPOGRAPHIC ERRORS AND SENTENCES MISSING, AND
THAT SORT OF THING.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU REVIEW EACH OTHERS CHAPTERS?
A. THEY ALL HAD SOME DEGREE OF REVIEW, BUT I DID
NOT REVIEW EVERYBODY'S CHAPTERS. I REVIEWED
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 352
DR. VYMAZAL'S -- ONE OF HIS CHAPTERS. AND I
REVIEWED -- WELL, I THINK THAT MAY HAVE BEEN THE
ONLY ONE I REVIEWED. I REVIEWED PART OF ONE OF
DR. QUALLS' CHAPTERS.
Q. OKAY. WHO REVIEWED YOURS?
A. I THINK DR. RICHARDSON WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO
REVIEWED MINE.
Q. DOES DR. RICHARDSON REVIEW ALL OF THE CHAPTERS?
A. YES, I THINK SO.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. BUT JUST SO I'M CLEAR, WE WILL
BE ONLY SEEING TYPOGRAPHICAL CHANGES AND MAYBE A
FEW CORRECTIONS IN DATA ANALYSIS?
A. RIGHT. I THINK SO. I MEAN, I'M MAINLY SPEAKING
FROM MY TWO CHAPTERS, NOW. BUT I DON'T THINK
ANYBODY ELSE HAD ANY REALLY SERIOUS PROBLEMS.
YOU KNOW, IT'S MORE JUST THESE -- BUT IF YOU'RE
READING TEXT AND THERE'S A SENTENCE MISSING,
THERE'S SOME PROBLEMS THERE, YOU KNOW, YOU
DON'T -- THE CONTINUITY IS LOST, YOU DON'T KNOW
WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, SO.
Q. WILL LORI SUTTER'S CHAPTER BE INCLUDED, TO YOUR
KNOWLEDGE?
A. I THINK SHE LOOKED BACK OVER HERS, AND SHE MAY
HAVE HAD A FEW TYPOGRAPHIC AREAS, BUT I THINK
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 353
HERS WILL REMAIN, PROBABLY, NINETY-FIVE,
NINETY-EIGHT, NINETY-NINE PERCENT INTACT, AS
ALMOST ALL OF THEM WILL. I THINK THEY ALL -- YOU
KNOW, THE CHANGE WILL BE LESS THAN FIVE PERCENT,
CERTAINLY. AND I THINK MOST OF THE TIME LESS
THAN ONE PERCENT.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. CAN WE GO
OFF THE RECORD A SECOND?
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
MS. PONZOLI: WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING
WHETHER OR NOT THIS REVISED DRAFT OF THE
ANNUAL REPORT WOULD BE COMPLETED PRIOR
TO DR. RICHARDSON'S DEPOSITION, WHICH IS
PRESENTLY SCHEDULED TO BEGIN ON THE 11TH,
AND THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN ADVISED THAT
NO FIRM REPRESENTATION CAN BE MADE AS TO WHEN
THE REVISED ANNUAL REPORT WILL BE COMPLETED.
I GUESS ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT IF THERE ARE
CHANGES THAT APPEAR TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE,
THEN THAT MIGHT CALL IN TO NEED THE
REQUIREMENT TO QUESTION DR. RICHARDSON ON
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 354
THOSE CHANGES, I SUPPOSE AT A SUBSEQUENT
DEPOSITION, WHICH WILL BE NECESSARY, IN
ANY EVENT, BECAUSE OF THE QUALIFICATION OF
HIS OPINIONS NOT BEING TOTALLY FINAL UNTIL
ENTRY IS COMPLETED. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE
TO DO.
MR. McCAUGHAN: WELL, I THINK THAT
THE TERM REVISED IS NOT AS ACCURATE AS
FINAL, BECAUSE IT WAS PRESENTED AS -- AT
THE SAGE -- I BELIEVE S-A-G-E -- CONFERENCE.
AND, THEN, REALIZING THAT HE HAD NOT STAMPED
IT "DRAFT" -- AND MINE AND ALL THE OTHERS --
I WAS SURPRISED WHEN IT WASN'T BECAUSE MINE
WAS STAMPED "DRAFT" -- HE NOTIFIED, I
BELIEVE, EVERYBODY THAT GOT A COPY THAT IT
WAS A DRAFT. AND SO THIS WOULD BE NOT A
REVISED, BUT RATHER A FINAL VERSION OF THE
REPORT.
MS. PONZOLI: I DON'T WANT TO QUIBBLE
WITH YOU, MR. McCAUGHAN. I -- WE HAD ALWAYS
THOUGHT IT WAS FINAL. BUT YOU SAY IT'S
DRAFT, SO IT'S DRAFT. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA
IN WHAT TIME FRAME THE APPENDICES WILL
FOLLOW?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 355
MR. McCAUGHAN: I THINK BOTH WILL BE
COMPLETED IN JANUARY.
MS. PONZOLI: SO, BY THE END OF
JANUARY, WE WOULD HAVE BOTH?
MR. McCAUGHAN: EXACTLY, YES.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. I CAN'T MAKE YOU
WRITE ANY FASTER OR PUBLISH ANY FASTER THAN
YOU ARE. I THINK IT WOULD BE USEFUL TO THE
UNITED STATES AND WOULD CERTAINLY FACILITATE
OUR ABILITY TO HAVE A THOROUGH UNDERSTANDING
HAD WE HAD THE FINAL DRAFT AND HAD WE HAD THE
APPENDICES AVAILABLE FOR DR. RICHARDSON'S
DEPOSITION.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THAT'S NOTED. AND IN
ALL -- I DO WANT TO POINT OUT THAT IT IS MY
CLEAR UNDERSTANDING THAT EVERYONE THAT GOT A
COPY OF THIS WAS NOTIFIED IMMEDIATELY
THEREAFTER, WHEN HE REALIZED IT HAD NOT BEEN
STAMPED -- BECAUSE HE RUSHED IT TO GET TO
THIS SAGE CONFERENCE -- THAT IT WAS, IN FACT,
A DRAFT. SO, IF THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING
ON THE PART OF THE COPY THAT YOU HAVE, I
DON'T KNOW THE SOURCE -- YOUR SOURCE OF THE
DOCUMENT. BUT I KNOW THAT THOSE THAT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 356
RECEIVED THAT ORIGINAL DISTRIBUTION FROM
DR. RICHARDSON WERE NOTIFIED IMMEDIATELY, IN
WRITING, THAT IT WAS, IN FACT, A DRAFT.
MS. PONZOLI: I'M ALWAYS THE LAST TO
HEAR.
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. OKAY. YOU BEGIN IN NOVEMBER, YOU SAID, DR. CRAFT,
WITH THE BROMIDE, NOW, I SUPPOSE REFLECTING THAT
YOUR NUTRIENT ADDITIONS WERE STAYING WITHIN YOUR
PLOTS IN THE FERTILIZER STUDY, SO YOU BEGAN
COLLECTING DATA AT THAT TIME?
A. AGAIN, YES.
Q. AGAIN COLLECTING DATA. OKAY. TELL ME THE TYPES
OF DATA THAT IN NOVEMBER OF 1990 YOU BEGAN
COLLECTING IN THOSE SITES.
A. WELL, OKAY, LET ME CLARIFY. WE COLLECTED DATA
FROM AUGUST TO NOVEMBER, AND THEN WE DID THE
BROMIDE WORK AND PUT THE FOAM IN THE PLOTS AND WE
ACTUALLY CURTAILED OUR SAMPLING UNTIL, I THINK,
THE FOLLOWING APRIL---
Q. OH, I'M SORRY, OKAY.
A. ---SO, IN THE WINTERTIME, WE DIDN'T REALLY COLLECT
ANY DATA.
Q. OKAY.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 357
A. AND THEN IN APRIL, WE STARTED IN EARNEST DOING
SOME PRETTY -- MAKING MEASUREMENTS AND STICKING TO
A TIME TABLE AT THAT POINT.
Q. OKAY. LET ME JUST RETURN TO THE SITE YOU CHOSE
WITH ONE MORE QUESTION REGARDING THE SITE. ARE
YOU AWARE OF ANY PARTICULAR BURN PROBLEM AT THAT
SITE?
A. WHICH SITE? ALL THREE OF THEM, OR JUST THE ONE?
Q. WELL, ALL THREE OF THEM IN 2B.
A. WE ALMOST HAD A -- THE SLOUGH SITE ALMOST BURNED
UP THE FOLLOWING SUMMER. WE HAD A FIRE WITHIN
ABOUT A HALF A MILE OF US, BUT IT EITHER GOT
EXTINGUISHED OR PUT OUT, OR SOMETHING, SO, WE FELT
PRETTY FORTUNATE. BECAUSE ONCE WE HAVE A BURN,
THE PLOTS BECOME USELESS. I'M SURE THEY'RE JUST
MOLTEN PLASTIC AFTER THAT, SO.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY HISTORY OF PRIOR BURNS THERE---
A. NO, NO.
Q. ---THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF?
A. NO, NO.
Q. OKAY. OKAY. SO, THE SLOUGH SITE CAME CLOSE TO
BURNING DOWN. DID ANY OF THE OTHER SITES HAVE
FIRE PROBLEMS?
A. NO.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 358
Q. OKAY. SO, IN APRIL OF '91, YOU BEGAN TREATING
THEM IN THE WAY YOU HAD INTENDED IN THE COURSE OF
YOUR DESIGN?
A. RIGHT.
Q. WHICH WAS WHAT?
A. WE TRIED TO FERTILIZE EVERY TWO MONTHS. SOMETIMES
WE WOULD GET BEHIND SCHEDULE AND WE WOULD HAVE TO
DOUBLE UP. EVERY MONTH, WE TOOK WATER LEVEL
MEASUREMENTS.
Q. WHEN YOU SAY YOU WOULD DOUBLE UP, WHAT DOES THAT
MEAN?
A. INSTEAD -- IF WE MISSED A MONTH FERTILIZING, WE
WOULD -- THE NEXT TIME WHEN IT WAS TIME, WE WOULD
FERTILIZE WITH TWICE AS MUCH, SO.
Q. SERIOUSLY?
A. YES. BUT THE WHOLE IDEA OF THIS STUDY IS TO LOOK
AT THE PLANT RESPONSE, AND WE CONTROLLED -- WE
APPLIED THE SAME AMOUNT EACH YEAR. SEE, WHAT WE
WERE INTERESTED IN WAS AN ANNUAL RATE AND NOT, YOU
KNOW, A MONTHLY RATE. SO, THE SUM AMOUNT WAS THE
SAME AT THE END OF THE YEAR AS IF WE WERE ABLE TO
STAY ON SCHEDULE.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT FORMS OF FERTILIZER
DID YOU USE?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 359
A. WE USED AMMONIUM CHLORIDE AS OUR NITROGEN SOURCE
AND WE USED SUPERPHOSPHATE AS OUR PHOSPHORUS
SOURCE.
Q. IS SUPERPHOSPHATE IN A GRANULAR FORM?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. DOES THAT -- WHAT IS THE WORD WHEN IT
LIQUIFIES?
A. DISSOLVES.
Q. DISSOLVES, OKAY. DOES THAT DISSOLVE IN AN EVEN
FASHION?
A. I THINK IF YOU APPLY IT EVENLY IT WILL DISSOLVE IN
A RELATIVELY EVEN FASHION.
Q. DID YOU JUST TOSS IT IN BY HAND?
A. THAT'S RIGHT. WHEN YOU HAVE EIGHTY-ONE PLOTS TO
FERTILIZE, YOU DO WHAT YOU CAN.
Q. I'VE HAD A FAMILY TO FEED, I GUESS I CAN RELATE.
EIGHTY-ONE PLOTS, YOU GO AROUND TOSSING THE
FERTILIZER IN BY HAND. DO YOU MEASURE IT, OR YOU
JUST GRAB A HANDFUL OR---
A. OH, NO. IT'S PRE -- WE MEASURE IT IN THE LAB, AND
WE MIX IN ONE HUNDRED GRAMS OF SAND TO GET ENOUGH
VOLUME SO THAT WE CAN HAVE ENOUGH SOLID MATERIAL
TO SPREAD IT EVENLY OVER THE PLOT. AND THEN, OF
COURSE, SO WE PUT A HUNDRED GRAMS OF SAND IN THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 360
BAG AND WE ADD THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF
FERTILIZER, WE LABEL THE BAGS, ZIP IT UP, MIX IT
UP, AND THEN TAKE IT OUT TO THE SITE. IT'S NOT AS
HAPHAZARD AS YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT, SO.
Q. OKAY. WAS THE AMMONIUM CHLORIDE IN A GRANULAR
FORM?
A. YES. IT'S A SOLID GRANULAR, CRYSTALLINE ALMOST.
Q. SO, THEY WERE BOTH MIXED IN THE SAME BAG?
A. IF IT WAS AN ADDITION THAT HAD BOTH NITROGEN AND
PHOSPHORUS APPLIED TO THE PLOT, YES.
Q. OKAY. AND WHO DID THESE APPLICATIONS?
A. I'VE DONE MOST OF THEM. DR. RICHARDSON HAS DONE
SOME. BOB JOHNSON HAS APPLIED IT ON OCCASION. I
THINK THAT'S PRETTY MUCH IT. AND LORI SUTTER AND
I HAVE APPLIED IT, TOO.
Q. OKAY. AND FOR WHAT PERIOD OF TIME FROM APRIL, '91
DID YOU APPLY -- YOU GO FOR ONE YEAR?
A. FOR -- WELL, IT'S CONTIN -- UP TILL NOW. WE'VE
APPLYING THEM UP UNTIL AUGUST OF THIS YEAR, SO.
AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO KEEP FERTILIZING THESE
PLOTS.
Q. FOR HOW LONG?
A. I THINK AS LONG AS WE CAN GET THE FUNDING TO DO
IT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 361
Q. IT NEEDS MORE RESEARCH?
A. WELL, I THINK THIS STUDY TRULY NEEDS MORE
RESEARCH -- (EVERYONE LAUGHING) NO, I'M
SERIOUS -- BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATING
THIS AREA BELOW THE HILLSBORO CANAL THAT HAS
RECEIVED AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE FOR TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS, AND I THINK IF WE WANT TO TRY TO
INVESTIGATE THE MECHANISMS CAUSING THESE CHANGES
OVER THAT TIME PERIOD, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN APPLY
FERTILIZER FOR A YEAR AND SEE CATTAIL TAKE OVER
ALL YOUR PLOTS. IN FACT, WE DIDN'T SEE THAT. SO,
I THINK THE LONGER YOU CAN KEEP A STUDY LIKE THIS
GOING, THE BETTER. AND EVEN IF THE WORK WINDS
DOWN, IT'S VERY EASY, IT'S NOT TERRIBLY LABOR
INTENSIVE TO GO OUT AND APPLY FERTILIZER, SO, EVEN
IF NOBODY IS COLLECTING INFORMATION, I HOPE
SOMEBODY WILL CONTINUE TO APPLY FERTILIZER TO
THESE PLOTS. BECAUSE THE LONGER THE EXPERIMENT
GOES, I THINK THE MORE USEFUL INFORMATION THAT CAN
COME OUT OF IT.
Q. OKAY. IS THIS LIKE A LOADING INTO THESE DIFFERENT
PLOTS?
A. I THINK LOADING IS THE WAY TO PUT IT, IT'S A MASS
LOADING. IT IS NOT A DOSING STUDY.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 362
Q. OKAY. RIGHT. OKAY. AND IS THE LOADING DESIGNED
TO APPROXIMATE THE LOADING THAT YOU THINK PARTS OF
THE EVERGLADES HAVE RECEIVED?
A. SOME OF THE TREATMENTS DO APPROXIMATE IT, BUT SOME
OF THEM ARE SOMEWHAT HIGHER THAN THAT, BECAUSE WE
WERE CONCERNED, WE WANTED TO APPLY ENOUGH
FERTILIZER TO SEE A RESPONSE, OR TO HOPEFULLY SEE
A RESPONSE.
Q. DID YOU HAVE A TIME FRAME IN MIND THAT YOU THOUGHT
YOU MIGHT SEE A RESPONSE?
A. I THINK THREE YEARS IS WHEN WE THOUGHT WE SHOULD
DEFINITELY START TO SEE SOME THINGS. BUT,
AGAIN, I THINK REALLY THE LONGER IT GOES THE
BETTER.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WERE THE LEVELS AT WHICH YOU WERE
DOSING?
A. THE PHOSPHORUS WAS .6 GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER
YEAR, WHICH IS SIMILAR TO WHAT THE ACCUMULATION
RATE IS IN THAT ENRICHED AREA OF CONSERVATION
AREA 2. 1.2 GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR, AND
4.8 GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR.
Q. .6, 1.2 AND 4.8?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 363
A. THE NITROGEN RATES ARE 5.6, AND I THINK 22.4 GRAMS
PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR.
Q. JUST 2?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN THAT'S IT---
A. AND THEN---
Q. ---AND THEN YOU HAD THE MIXTURES?
A. ---AND THEN WE HAVE TWO CONTROLLED PLOTS.
Q. OKAY.
A. ONE IS JUST THE SAME AS ALL THE OTHER PLOTS, IT
HAS SIDES, AND WE ADD A ONE HUNDRED GRAMS OF SAND
TO IT, JUST IN CASE FOR SOME REASON THE SAND MIGHT
HAVE AN EFFECT, BUT. AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE
CONTROLLED PLOTS THAT DON'T HAVE THE SIDES,
BECAUSE WE WERE CONCERNED THAT THE SIDING MIGHT
HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE GROWTH OF THE PLANTS.
Q. HAVE YOU FOUND THAT THE SIDING DID, BY SHADING OR
WHATEVER?
A. AT THE SAWGRASS SITE, THEIR DOSING -- AT THE
SAWGRASS SITE, STATISTICALLY, THERE IS AN EFFECT
OF THE SIDES.
Q. SPECIFICALLY THERE IS?
A. RIGHT. IN THAT THE SIDES DO SEEM TO REDUCE THE
PRODUCTIVITY, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S A SHADING
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 364
EFFECT. I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IS WHEN YOU DIG
THAT TRENCH, YOU CUT THE ROOTS, BUT I'M NOT
CONVINCED THAT -- BECAUSE IT IS A STATISTICALLY
SIGNIFICANT EFFECT, I DON'T THINK IN REALITY IT
IS AN EFFECT, BECAUSE AT THE MIXED SITE, WE ALSO
SEE A DIFFERENCE. BUT THE PLOTS THAT HAVE SIDES
HAVE MORE PRODUCTION THAN THE PLOTS THAT DON'T
HAVE SIDES. SO, IT'S LIKE THE REVERSE AT THE TWO
SITES.
Q. DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANY EFFECT OF THIS SIDING
OTHER THAN LIKE SHADING, I MEAN, AS TO WATER
MOVEMENT?
A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH
ABOUT IT TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS HOW THAT WOULD
AFFECT BY MAYBE INHIBITING WATER MOVEMENT, HOW
THAT MIGHT AFFECT IT. BUT, AGAIN, THE CONTROLLED
PLOTS WITHOUT THE SIDES SHOULD ALLOW YOU TO
ASCERTAIN WHETHER THERE'S A DIFFERENCE THERE OR
NOT.
Q. ARE YOU AWARE THEY HAVE BEEN CALLED, LIKE,
SWIMMING POOLS WITHOUT BOTTOMS?
A. IN REFERENCE TO MY PLOTS?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. NO, I HAVEN'T HEARD THAT. THEY'RE ONLY SIX FEET
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 365
BY SIX FEET, SO THEY'RE MORE LIKE BATHTUBS WITHOUT
BOTTOMS, SO.
Q. BATHTUBS WITHOUT BOTTOMS?
A. YEAH.
Q. OKAY. WE'VE NOW GOT -- OKAY. WAS THE MEDIUM
PHOSPHORUS LOADING 1.2 OR 2.4 GRAMS PER METER
SQUARED PER YEAR?
A. I THINK THAT WAS 1.2. AND THE NITROGEN, I -- NO,
NO, FORGET THAT.
Q. WHAT?
A. NO, IT'S JUST I WAS THINKING THE NITROGEN WAS 2.4,
BUT IT'S 5.6.
Q. OKAY. WERE THE WATER LEVELS MEASURED IN THE
ENCLOSURES OR OUTSIDE THE ENCLOSURES?
A. INSIDE THE ENCLOSURE OF EVERY PLOT.
Q. OKAY.
A. AND ONE REASON WE KNOW THAT THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO
BE A LOT OF INHIBITION OF WATER IS THAT THE WATER
LEVEL OUTSIDE THE PLOT IS THE SAME AS IT IS INSIDE
THE PLOT.
Q. DID YOU EXPECT IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT?
A. NO, I DIDN'T THINK SO. BUT I THINK IT JUST
SUPPORTS THE IDEA. I MEAN, THESE THINGS ARE NOT
LEAK, YOU KNOW, LEAK TIGHT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 366
Q. OKAY. DID YOU BEGIN THE BROMIDE AGAIN ONCE YOU
HAD FOAM?
A. WE DID IT IN JANUARY, YES.
Q. WHAT DID YOU FIND?
A. WE FOUND THAT IT STAYED IN THE PLOTS LONGER THAN
IT DID ORIGINALLY.
Q. IT STAYED IN LONGER?
A. UP TO FOUR DAYS.
Q. WAS THAT THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT YOU EXPECTED THAT
THE BROMIDE SHOULD HAVE BEEN STILL AT THE LEVELS
YOU THOUGHT IT SHOULD BE?
A. NOT SO MUCH THAT, BUT WE THOUGHT THAT THE
FERTILIZER WOULD BE ASSIMILATED WITHIN ABOUT A
FOUR OR FIVE DAY PERIOD, ESPECIALLY IF PHOSPHORUS
IS AS LIMITING AS IT IS, YOU WOULD EXPECT IT TO BE
SUCKED UP VERY QUICKLY.
Q. IS IT?
A. WE THINK SO. BUT, I MEAN, I HAVEN'T DONE ANY KIND
OF STUDIES TO LOOK AT -- I DO HAVE SOME DATA THAT
SUGGESTS THAT AFTER ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE DAYS
IT'S -- MOST OF IT'S TAKEN UP.
Q. WHICH SUPPORTS THE CONCEPT THAT WE HAVE
DISCUSSED ALL DAY, THAT PHOSPHORUS IS A LIMITING
FACTOR?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 367
A. YES, I THINK SO.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU CONDUCT BROMIDE TRACER STUDIES AT
ALL THREE SITES?
A. YES.
Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, WHAT ARE YOUR CONCLUSIONS -- WELL,
FIRST, TELL ME YOUR HYPOTHESIS. I DON'T THINK I
EVER HAD YOU GIVE ME YOUR HYPOTHESIS FOR THE
FERTILIZER STUDY.
A. I THINK OUR HYPOTHESIS -- I THINK WE KIND OF
HEDGED ON OUR HYPOTHESIS FOR THIS PARTICULAR
STUDY. WE WANTED -- IT HAD BEEN SUGGESTED FROM
THE LITERATURE THAT PHOSPHORUS WAS LIMITING, SO
WE DEFINITELY WANTED TO ADD IT TO SEE SPECIFIC
RESPONSES IN THE THREE COMMUNITIES. THE NITROGEN,
WE DID HAVE A HYPOTHESIS, NOT SO MUCH THAT THERE'D
BE A RESPONSE, BUT THE PREVIOUS STUDIES HAD ALWAYS
USED NITRATE AS THE NITROGEN SOURCE AND NOT
AMMONIUM. AND WETLANDS, GENERALLY, AMMONIUM IS
THE DOMINANT FORM OF NITROGEN, SO WE WANTED TO ADD
AMMONIUM AS THE NITROGEN SOURCE TO SEE IF PERHAPS
MAYBE WE WOULD SEE A RESPONSE WITH THAT SINCE, YOU
KNOW, SINCE PEOPLE HADN'T SEEN A RESPONSE WITH
NITRATE.
Q. DID YOU?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 368
A. NO, WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY RESPONSE OF NITROGEN
ADDITIONS.
Q. WHY DID YOU HEDGE ON YOUR HYPOTHESIS IN REGARD TO
PHOSPHOROUS?
A. I DON'T KNOW. I JUST -- SINCE IT HADN'T GONE
OUT TO A JOURNAL OR ANYTHING, THERE WAS NO NEED
TO FORMULATE A HYPOTHESIS IN TERMS OF SOMETHING
LIKE THAT. WE ADOPTED THE WAIT AND SEE ATTITUDE,
WE WANTED TO SEE WHETHER THERE WAS A RESPONSE OR
NOT.
Q. DR. CRAFT, ARE YOU PUTTING ME ON?
A. NO, I'M SERIOUS.
Q. DID YOU THINK THAT THIS WORK WAS GOING TO BE
SUBJECTED TO SOME SCRUTINY DOWNSTREAM?
A. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU THINK THAT YOUR FERTILIZER
STUDY, AT THE TIME YOU DESIGNED IT, WOULD BE
SUBJECTED TO SCRUTINY DOWNSTREAM BY PEOPLE WHO
WERE INTERESTED IN THE RESULTS AND THOUGHT THE
RESULTS HAD IMPLICATIONS FOR RESOLUTION OF
PROBLEMS?
A. WELL, DOWNSTREAM, ARE YOU SAYING THAT -- AGAIN, I
DON'T -- YOU MEAN BY THE RESULTS, WOULD THEY BE OF
USE TO SOMEBODY?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 369
Q. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)
A. WELL, SURE, I THINK THEY WOULD BE INTERESTING TO
DETERMINE. SINCE AMMONIUM HAD NEVER REALLY BEEN
LOOKED AT AS A NITROGEN SOURCE, IT WOULD HELP
DETERMINE WHETHER NITROGEN WAS SOMETHING THAT
REALLY NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED OR NOT.
Q. DR. CRAFT, I'M NOT A SCIENTIST BUT ISN'T IT COMMON
IN SCIENTIFIC STUDIES THAT YOU WOULD HAVE A
HYPOTHESIS WHEN YOU BEGAN?
A. YES, YOU CAN DO THAT. BUT NOT ALL STUDIES HAVE
HYPOTHESIS.
Q. IS IT YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT RESEARCH IS FUNDED
WITHOUT FORMULATING FIRST A HYPOTHESIS?
A. NO, RESEARCH IS FUNDED WITHOUT FORMULATING A
HYPOTHESIS IN MANY CASES.
Q. BY UNIVERSITIES?
A. YES, I THINK SO.
Q. OKAY.
A. I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER
YOU HAVE A HYPOTHESIS OR NOT. THAT DOESN'T
DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF YOUR FINDINGS. WHAT YOU
FIND IS WHAT YOU FIND.
Q. AND WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND, DR. CRAFT?
MR. BURGESS: ASK AND ANSWERED. IS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 370
THIS THE FERTILIZER STUDY?
MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES).
MR. BURGESS: THIS WILL BE THE
THIRD TIME HE'S GIVEN THIS.
A. WELL, YES, WE FIND THAT AFTER ONE YEAR OF
FERTILIZER APPLICATIONS, WE SEE AN INCREASE IN
PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE BY MACROPHYTES AND WE SEE A
DECREASE IN THE STANDING CROP BIOMASS OF THE
UTRICULARIA-PERIPHYTON MAT.
Q. AND THAT'S IT?
A. AND WE DO SEE AN INCREASE IN PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE BY
THE UTRICULARIA-PERIPHYTON, ALSO.
Q. OKAY. DOING BACK TO YOUR DESIGN, WHAT IS YOUR
EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN TRYING TO TEST?
A. TO TEST THE RESPONSE OF MACROPHYTES TO FERTILIZER
ADDITIONS, TO N ALONE, P ALONE, AND N AND P IN
COMBINATION.
Q. SO, WHAT DO YOU ANTICIPATE LONG TERM THAT THIS
FERTILIZER STUDY IS GOING TO TELL US ABOUT THE
EVERGLADES, OTHER THAN THOSE TWO CONCLUSIONS THAT
YOU'VE GIVEN US?
A. I THINK IF IT'S CONTINUED LONG ENOUGH, YOU'LL BE
ABLE TO -- A STORY WILL UNFOLD AS TO WHAT CHANGES
OCCUR FIRST, AND HOW THINGS CHANGE OVER TIME.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 371
THAT IS WHAT I THINK WILL COME OUT OF IT. AND
THAT IN THE FIRST YEAR, FERTILIZER ADDITIONS DO
NOT TRANSLATE INTO AN INCREASE IN PRODUCTIVITY IN
MACROPHYTES, BUT IT DOES RESULT IN AN INCREASE IN
PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE.
Q. ARE ANY OF YOUR FINDINGS IN THE FERTILIZER STUDY
BEING APPLIED TO THE DOSING STUDY SITE?
A. NO, I DON'T THINK SO.
Q. IS THERE ANY REASON WHY NOT?
A. WELL, AGAIN, WE'RE LOOKING AT A LOADING AND
THEY'RE LOOKING AT A CONCENTRATION, BECAUSE THAT
STUDY FOLLOWS A CONCENTRATION EFFECT. OURS IS
MORE OF A NUTRIENT LIMITATION STUDY, THAT IS THE
MAIN FOCUS. IS IT N, IS IT P, IS IT BOTH, IS IT
NEITHER.
Q. WHY DID YOU LOOK AT BELOWGROUND BIOMASS CHANGES IN
YOUR PLOTS?
A. COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION? I CAN'T HEAR.
Q. WHY DID YOU LOOK AT BELOWGROUND BIOMASS CHANGES IN
YOUR PLOTS?
A. WELL, ROOTS ARE A VERY IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF THE
PLANT COMMUNITY, SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO
DETERMINE WHETHER THERE IS A CHANGE IN ROOT
BIOMASS AND ALSO WHETHER YOU SEE AN INCREASE IN
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 372
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN THE ROOTS. IT'S VERY
IMPORTANT, BUT IT'S ALSO REALLY DIFFICULT TO DO.
MS. PONZOLI: OFF THE RECORD.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IS THERE ANY CONFLICT, DR.
CRAFT, FROM YOUR BIOMASS RESULTS WITH ANY OF THE
OTHER EXPERIMENTS, SUCH AS THE LABORATORY OR
GREENHOUSE EXPERIMENTS THAT THE DUKE WETLAND
CENTER HAS DONE?
A. AT THIS POINT, THERE'S NOT. BUT, AGAIN, I DON'T
HAVE THIS SECOND YEAR OF DATA ANALYZED, SO I CAN'T
SAY. I CAN SAY AFTER ONE YEAR, THERE DOESN'T SEEM
TO BE ANY BIG CONTRADICTION BETWEEN THE TWO. BUT,
AGAIN, I DON'T HAVE THE SECOND YEAR OF DATA
ANALYZED.
Q. IN COMPARISON TO SUTTER'S WORK AND YOURS, YOU
DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY CONTRADICTION OR CONFLICT
BETWEEN THE DATA RESULTS?
A. WELL, IN TERMS OF BIOMASS, SHE DID NOT SEE ANY
BIOMASS RESPONSE, AND I DIDN'T SEE IT AFTER ONE
YEAR. BUT, AGAIN, I SAY, FROM WHAT I'M LOOKING AT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 373
THE DATA NOW, I THINK THERE PROBABLY IS A BIOMASS
RESPONSE AFTER TWO YEARS. BUT, AGAIN, I HAVE TO
WAIT UNTIL THE DATA IS ANALYZED.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. THAT'S ALL I HAVE
FOR TODAY. I DON'T THINK WE WILL GO MORE
THAN A FEW HOURS IN THE MORNING.
WITNESS: OKAY.
MS. PONZOLI: I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS
WITH COUNSEL THE EXPERT WITNESS DOCUMENTS
THOUGH, IF YOU DON'T MIND STAYING FOR A
LITTLE WHILE.
WITNESS: HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WILL
GO TOMORROW?
MR. PONZOLI: I ONLY THINK WE WILL GO A
COUPLE OF HOURS -- A HALF A DAY, MAX.
WITNESS: OKAY, GREAT. THAT SOUNDS
GREAT.
MS. PONZOLI: A HALF A DAY, MAX.
WITNESS: GREAT. THANK YOU.
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(THEREUPON, THE DEPOSITION WAS ADJOURNED AT 4:32 P.M.
AND WAS RESUMED ON DECEMBER 8, 1992 AT 10:26 A.M.)
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