DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 230
EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI CONTINUES:
Q. DR. CRAFT, I WANT TO ASK YOU A FEW MORE QUESTIONS
ON THE CESIUM DATA. FIRST, I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT
THE APPENDIX ONE THAT APPEARS AT THE BEGINNING OF
THE COMPOSITE EXHIBIT FIVE. IT SAYS APPENDIX ONE
CONTINUED. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT'S CONTINUED
FROM?
A. THERE SHOULD BE ANOTHER PAGE THAT SAYS -- IT --
THE APPENDIX ONE WAS TWO PAGES, ESSENTIALLY---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---AND THIS IS THE SECOND PAGE OF IT.
Q. OKAY. DO---
A. IT'S PROBABLY IN HERE SOMEWHERE.
Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. I THINK THAT'S WHAT DR. MAFFEI IS
INDICATING TO ME. IS THIS -- OKAY, THE VERY LAST
PAGE, OR NEXT TO THE LAST PAGE IN THIS COMPOSITE
EXHIBIT IS -- SAYS APPENDIX ONE, ALSO.
A. OKAY.
Q. AND THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST PAGE OF APPENDIX ONE,
AND THIS IS THE SECOND PAGE---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---OF APPENDIX ONE?
A. RIGHT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. NORMALLY -- AREN'T THERE NORMALLY TWO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 231
PEAKS IN CESIUM DATING?
A. THERE CAN BE, BUT NOT -- I DON'T THINK NORMALLY
THERE ARE TWO PEAKS.
Q. NORMALLY, THERE'RE NOT. WHAT ARE THOSE TWO TIME
PERIODS?
A. OH, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT. YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT ONE PEAK OCCURS IN 1964, WHICH IS -- WELL,
'63-'64---
Q. SURE.
A. ---THE PERIOD OF MAXIMUM PRODUCTION OF CESIUM 137
FROM WEAPONS TESTING. BUT SOME PEOPLE USE A '54
PEAK, WHICH WAS WHEN THE FIRST WEAPONS TESTING
OCCURRED. SO, THAT'S WHEN CESIUM FIRST APPEARS
IN THE PROFILE.
Q. OKAY. JUST BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, HOW WOULD YOU
KNOW WHICH CESIUM PEAK YOU'RE LOOKING AT?
A. WELL, THE '63 PEAK WAS BY FAR MUCH BIGGER. SO,
THAT'S THE ONE YOU WOULD KNOW; THE BIGGEST PEAK
WOULD CORRESPOND TO THAT. AND THE SECOND ONE --
REALLY IT'S NOT TWO PEAKS, YOU LOOK FOR THE
PEAK---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---FROM '63, '64, THE PERIOD OF MAXIMUM
DEPOSITION. BUT THE '54 PERIOD YOU'RE TALKING
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 232
ABOUT IS WHEN YOU FIRST SEE CESIUM IN THE PROFILE,
WHEN IT FIRST -- JUST WHEN IT FIRST SHOWS UP---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---CAUSE PRIOR TO '54, THERE WAS NO ABOVEGROUND
WEAPONS TESTING, OR NO SIGNIFICANT ABOVEGROUND
WEAPONS TESTING.
Q. SO, THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST MARKER THAT YOU WOULD
FIND. IT WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE A PEAK?
A. RIGHT. IT'S WHEN IT SHOULD FIRST SHOW UP, WHEN
YOU FIRST SEE IT IN THE PROFILE.
Q. OKAY. NOW, MY NEXT QUESTION IS, YOU INDICATE IN
YOUR LIST OF FIGURES -- YOU SAY FIGURE ONE AND YOU
TALK ABOUT IT, AND THEN YOU SAY FIGURE TWO AND YOU
TALK ABOUT IT -- THAT THE DEPTH DISTRIBUTION OF
CESIUM IN REPRESENTATIVE SOIL CORES COLLECTED FROM
THE NORTHERN AND CENTRAL EVERGLADES. HOW DID YOU
KNOW WHICH WERE REPRESENTATIVE?
A. ALL I MEANT BY REPRESENTATIVE WAS, OF ALL THE
CESIUM DATA WE COLLECTED---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---I COULD NOT VERY WELL -- OR I DON'T THINK THE
JOURNAL WOULD ACCEPT TWENTY OR EIGHTEEN CESIUM
PROFILES. SO, I PULLED OUT WHAT I CONSIDERED WERE
REPRESENTATIVE PROFILES TO SHOW IN GRAPHICAL FORM,
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 233
AND THEN THE OTHER DATA IS IN THE TABLE. SO,
THAT'S ALL THAT MEANS IS---
Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THE "OTHER DATA IS IN THE
TABLE," TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN.
A. IN APPENDIX ONE.
Q. OH, OKAY. SO, ALL THE DATA APPEARS IN APPENDIX
ONE, BUT YOUR GRAPHS ONLY GRAPH ONES THAT ARE---
A. NO, THE DATA APPEARS IN THAT FIGURE AND IN
APPENDIX ONE. INSTEAD OF JUST -- SEE, THE
REVIEWERS WANTED TO SEE WHAT THE PROFILES LOOKED
LIKE---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---SO, I PICKED OUT EIGHT OF THEM AND GRAPHED
THEM AND SHOWED THEM. THE OTHER ONES, I JUST LEFT
IN APPENDIX ONE, RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, GIVE THEM
EIGHTEEN FIGURES SHOWING CESIUM PROFILES. BECAUSE
THEY PROBABLY WOULD NOT -- YOU KNOW, IT TAKES UP A
LOT OF SPACE IN THE TEXT, AND FIGURES ARE MORE
EXPENSIVE TO WORK UP AND, YOU KNOW, THEY JUST
COST -- IT INCREASES THE COST OF THE PAPER IN
TERMS OF PAGE CHARGES.
Q. OKAY. IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THESE GRAPHS THAT
YOU DID FOR THE EIGHT, THEY DON'T LOOK THAT
SIMILAR, AT LEAST TO A LAYMAN. OR CERTAINLY THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 234
TWO FOR WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, UNENRICHED, DO
NOT LOOK THAT SIMILAR, WOULD YOU AGREE?
A. YEAH, I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.
Q. OKAY. HOW DID YOU HANDLE THESE DIFFERENCES?
A. I BASICALLY JUST AVERAGED. SINCE I TOOK MORE THAN
ONE CORE AT EACH SITE, I REFERRED TO THE DATA
PRIMARILY AS THE AVERAGE FOR EACH SITE, BE IT THE
MEAN OF TWO CORES OR THE MEAN OF THREE CORES.
Q. YOU DID NOT HANDLE THEM IN SOME STATISTICALLY
SIGNIFICANT WAY?
A. NO. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ENOUGH DATA POINTS TO
REALLY ANALYZE STATISTICALLY. WITH A MEAN OF TWO
YOU HAVE ONE DEGREE OF FREEDOM.
Q. OKAY.
A. IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A WHOLE LOT LEFT TO WORK
WITH.
Q. SO, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH DATA FOR STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS, IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. YEAH, I WOULD SAY SO.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LOOKING AT THE SECOND PAGE OF
APPENDIX ONE, WHICH IS IN THE FRONT OF THAT
COMPOSITE EXHIBIT, YOU HAVE A COUNTING ERROR,
LET'S SAY UNDER ALLIGATOR ALLEY NUMBER TWO.
A. UH-HUH (YES).
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 235
Q. COUNTING ERROR OF .25. DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU
COULD ADD OR SUBTRACT .25 TO YOUR PEAK, WHICH WAS
AT 3.92 AND THEN YOUR LINE WOULD GO UP OR DOWN, IS
THAT ACCURATE?
A. IT'S ANALOGOUS, BUT NOT THE EXACT SAME AS A
STANDARD ERROR. IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF -- IT,
YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE THE AVERAGE OR THE COUNT.
THE NUMBER OF PICOCURIES IS 3.92, BUT BASED ON THE
INSTRUMENT IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, .25 LESS THAN
THAT. IT DOESN'T -- YOU CAN'T EXACTLY DRAW THE
LINE, BUT IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF HOW RELIABLE --
OR HOW MUCH VARIATION YOU HAVE.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU DIDN'T DO STANDARD ERROR ANALYSIS?
A. THIS IS ANALOGOUS TO A STANDARD ERROR FOR COUNTING
STATISTICS. THIS IS WHAT RADIOCHEMISTS USE. THIS
IS -- IT'S BASED ON THE NUMBER OF CHANNELS THAT
YOU MAKE THE COUNTS IN. BECAUSE YOU DON'T -- WHEN
YOU -- YOU GET A BELL-SHAPED CURVE OF COUNTS, AND
EACH ONE CORRESPONDS TO A CHANNEL; IT'S NOT JUST
ONE CHANNEL. I DON'T KNOW IF I'M MAKING MYSELF
CLEAR, BUT---
Q. I THINK YOU'RE TRYING. I THINK I UNDERSTAND YOUR
ANSWER.
A. I MEAN, IT'S NOT CALCULATED EXACTLY LIKE A
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 236
STANDARD ERROR, BUT IT IS ANALOGOUS TO A STANDARD
ERROR.
Q. OKAY. IS THERE A REASON YOU DIDN'T USE STANDARD
ERROR?
A. NO. THIS IS -- THIS IS WHAT IS TRADITIONALLY --
THIS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS RADIOCHEMISTRY
TYPE WORK DO. THIS IS THE NUMBER.
Q. OH, THIS IS WHAT -- THIS IS -- YOU SAY THE
COUNTING ERROR IS WHAT PEOPLE WHO USE CESIUM---
A. YEAH, OR---
Q. ---DATA WOULD USE?
A. YEAH, OR ANY OF THIS RADIOCHEMISTRY TYPE STUFF;
LEAD 210, YOU COULD CALCULATE A COUNTING ERROR FOR
IT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. LOOKING AT RESULTS AND
DISCUSSION ON PAGE 9, YOU INDICATE THE NUMBER OF
CORES THAT YOU PULLED, AND I THINK YOU'VE
INDICATED THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH TO DO STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS. DO YOU THINK THIS IS AN ADEQUATE SAMPLE
SIZE TO DRAW THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU'VE ACTUALLY
DRAWN?
A. I THINK SO. AND APPARENTLY THE REVIEWERS THINK SO
TOO, SINCE IT HAS BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE JOURNAL OF
ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 237
Q. DID ANYONE QUESTION THE SAMPLE SIZE, DR. CRAFT?
A. NO. THAT -- THEY QUESTIONED SOME THINGS, BUT THAT
DIDN'T HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THEM.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU TALK ABOUT TAILING, WOULD
YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT TAILING IS?
A. THAT IS WHERE YOU SEE A -- WELL, LET'S LOOK AT
MAYBE THAT FIGURE TWO, THAT MIGHT SHOW A GOOD
EXAMPLE OF TAILING. IN FACT, I MIGHT -- IF YOU
LOOK AT THE FIGURE WITH THE CESIUM PROFILES, AN
EXAMPLE OF WHAT I WOULD CALL TAILING IS THAT --
IT'S A SECOND -- IT'S IN THE SECOND COLUMN DOWN
AND THE ONE ON THE RIGHT.
Q. OKAY.
A. WHERE YOU SEE CESIUM ALL THE WAY DOWN AT
TWENTY-FOUR CENTIMETERS BELOW THE SURFACE.
Q. INSTEAD OF, LIKE, IN THE LEFT COLUMN THREE DOWN
WHERE IT STARTS TO HUG THE LEFT?
A. YEAH, OR ANY -- OR THE ONE IN THE SECOND COLUMN.
BUT THE ONE TO THE LEFT YOU DON'T REALLY SEE --
YOU SEE SOME TAILING, BUT NOT LIKE IN THE ONE I'M
REFERRING TO, 2A UNENRICHED NUMBER TWO.
Q. OKAY. WHY IS THERE TAILING?
A. THAT JUST MEANS THAT CESIUM -- AND CESIUM IS NOT
HELD. IT IS HELD TO SOME EXTENT BY THE SOIL, BUT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 238
IT'S NOT HELD A HUNDRED PERCENT. AND THIS IS WHY
YOU SEE SOME CESIUM AT DEPTH, WHEN YOU KNOW FOR A
FACT OR YOU'RE PRETTY SURE THAT THERE WAS NO
CESIUM DEPOSITED THERE. CESIUM IS -- CESIUM IS
MOBILE TO SOME EXTENT IN THE SOIL, AND THAT'S WHY
IN SOME---
Q. YOU MEAN IF IT WERE OVERTURNED OR SOMETHING, YOU
COULD -- WE COULD DISTURB THE PROFILE, OR WHAT DO
YOU MEAN?
A. I MEAN THAT CESIUM IS A CATION, IT'S POSITIVELY
CHARGED.
Q. RIGHT.
A. SO, IT IS SORBED -- OR ADSORBED ON THE NEGATIVELY
CHARGED SITES. AND IF YOU HAVE A LOT OF
NEGATIVELY CHARGED SITES, OR -- IT WILL BE HELD
VERY TIGHTLY.
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. OR LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE DEALING WITH
LIKE A METAL CATION THAT HAS A TRIVALENT CHARGE,
IT WILL BE HELD VERY, VERY TIGHT. CESIUM JUST HAS
A PLUS ONE CHARGE, AND FOR THIS REASON IT'S NOT
HELD AS TIGHT AS A METAL, LIKE LEAD OR CALCIUM OR
MAGNESIUM. AND SO THIS TAILING OCCURS, AND IT'S
REALLY SEEN PRETTY COMMONLY IN MOST STUDIES THAT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 239
HAVE USED THE CESIUM TECHNIQUE.
Q. OKAY. IF YOU SEE TOO MUCH TAILING, DOES THAT SORT
OF INVALIDATE YOUR USE OF THE CESIUM OR NOT?
A. NO, NO, IT DOESN'T INVALIDATE IT, BUT IT JUST
TELLS YOU THAT IT'S NOT HELD AS TIGHTLY AS YOU
MIGHT HOPE.
Q. OKAY. I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE EFFECT OF
FIRE ON YOUR CESIUM MARKER -- OR ON YOUR CESIUM
PEAK. WHAT IS THAT EFFECT?
A. I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE EXTENT OF THE BURN. A
VERY -- A SURFACE BURN THAT DOESN'T BURN THE PEAT,
YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT SEE ANY EFFECT ON THE CESIUM
PROFILE. BUT IF IT -- OBVIOUSLY, IF THE FIRE
BURNS A FOOT OF PEAT, THEN THE CESIUM PROFILE
THAT'S IN THAT ONE FOOT, THE PEAK IS GOING TO MOVE
DOWN INTO THE ASH LAYER. BUT THAT WOULD BE TRUE
OF ANYTHING, LEAD, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING IF YOU HAD A
BURN LIKE THAT.
Q. LEAD, OR THE POLLEN, ANY OF YOUR MARKERS?
A. YEAH, THE POLLEN, TOO, SURE.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHERE YOU DID NOT -- YOU SAID
THERE WAS ONE CORE SAMPLE WHERE YOU DID NOT FIND
CESIUM BELOW THE SURFACE, WERE YOU ABLE TO
CORRELATE THAT TO A BURN?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 240
A. WE KIND OF LOOKED INTO IT, BUT WE COULDN'T REALLY
RELATE IT TO ANYTHING. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THAT
SITE IS JUST LOCATED IN AN AREA THAT HAS BEEN
DRIER, AND THUS HAS NOT HAD ANY SIGNIFICANT
ACCRETION, OR IT COULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO SOME
KIND OF A BURN. THAT CORE HAS BEEN THE TOPIC OF A
LOT OF DISCUSSION.
Q. WELL---
A. BUT I STILL INCLUDE IT IN THE PAPER---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A REAL PHENOMENA THERE
THAT WE SEE. THAT THE PEAK IS AT THE SURFACE, I
THINK.
Q. YOU CAN'T QUITE ACCOUNT FOR WHY THE PEAK IS AT THE
SURFACE? WHY THERE WAS A LOSS OF---
A. IT COULD BE FIRE, OR IT COULD BE THAT SITE JUST
HAS NOT HAD ANY ACCRETION OVER THE PAST
TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, BUT I CAN'T -- I DON'T HAVE ANY
INFORMATION TO PULL THAT OUT.
Q. THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, THERE'S BEEN NO ACCRETION
IN TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, DOES IT?
A. WELL, IF IT'S ON A HIGH SPOT OR A DRY SPOT IN THE
EVERGLADES, IT IS POSSIBLE.
Q. WHAT WOULD BE THE EFFECT OF DROUGHT ON THE CESIUM
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 241
PEAK?
A. THE PEAK WOULDN'T CHANGE, BUT YOU WOULDN'T GET ANY
ACCRETION IF YOU HAD A DROUGHT. OR IF YOU HAD
SOME SUBSIDENCE, IT COULD TEND TO BRING THE -- YOU
KNOW, IF YOU HAD OXIDATION OF THE SURFACE PEAK, IT
COULD TEND TO BRING THE PEAK CLOSER TO THE
SURFACE. BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE, YOU KNOW,
THIS QUESTION OF FIRE, I JUST DON'T KNOW THE ROLE
AND HOW IT AFFECTS THE LOCATION OF THE PEAK.
Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE ROLE OF OXIDATION ON
THE PEAT ACCRETION THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES?
A. NO, THAT'S ANOTHER THING, AND THAT'S WHERE GOOD
HYDROLOGY DATA WOULD, I THINK, HELP PROVIDE SOME
INFORMATION ON THAT.
Q. OKAY. BUT, AT PRESENT, THE WAY YOU'RE GOING ABOUT
THE HYDROLOGY DATA IS TO LOOK AT THE POLLEN
MARKINGS?
A. WELL, TO TRY TO. I MEAN, THERE'S NO GUARANTEE
THAT IT WILL PROVIDE ANY MORE INFORMATION THAN WE
ALREADY HAVE, BUT THAT'S JUST PART OF THE WORK.
YOU DON'T KNOW TILL YOU START LOOKING.
Q. YOU INDICATE THAT CESIUM WAS USED UNSUCCESSFULLY
IN OMBROTROPHIC BOGS WHERE THE PEATS WERE STRONGLY
ACIDIC. IS THAT -- NOW, I'M READING, SO I'M SURE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 242
IT'S ACCURATE.
A. RIGHT. I SEE IT, PAGE 10.
Q. RIGHT, ON PAGE 10. BUT YOU SAY THAT YOUR
EVERGLADES CORES ALSO EXHIBITED SOME MOVEMENT. I
GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS
YOU HAD IN WORKING WITH THE CESIUM?
A. WELL, IN THE EVERGLADES NOT REALLY. I THINK IT
WORKS REALLY PRETTY WELL IN THE EVERGLADES, WHICH
IS, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF -- THE PROBLEM IS THAT
CESIUM HAS BEEN TRIED IN NORTHERN PEATLANDS, IN
CANADA AND MINNESOTA, AND IT HAS NOT -- THEY HAVE
NOT HAD SUCCESS WITH IT.
Q. BECAUSE OF ACIDIC SOILS?
A. THAT'S MY THEORY. THAT'S WHY, I THINK. BECAUSE
THERE CESIUM IN AN ACIDIC SOIL IS COMPETING WITH
ALUMINUM, WHICH IS TRIVALENT AND IS HELD VERY
TIGHTLY. WHEREAS, IN THE EVERGLADES THERE IS VERY
LITTLE ALUMINUM. CESIUM WOULD BE COMPETING WITH
CALCIUM WHICH IS DIVALENT, AND WOULD ALSO BE
COMPETING WITH THINGS LIKE POTASSIUM AND SODIUM.
Q. WHY HAVEN'T YOU TAKEN ANY CORES AT THE 217 GAUGE
IN 2A, WHERE THERE IS SOME PRETTY GOOD HYDROLIC --
HYDROLOGIC DATA?
A. I'VE NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED IT. I JUST HAVEN'T
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 243
THOUGHT ABOUT IT.
Q. OKAY.
A. IT MIGHT BE A GOOD THING TO DO FOR SOMEBODY,
THOUGH.
Q. OVER ON PAGE 12, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
THERMOFACTORS, NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, HIGHER NET
PRIMARY PRODUCTION OF CATTAIL AS COMPARED TO
SAWGRASS. AN INCREASED HYDROPERIOD MAY EXPLAIN
THE HIGHER ACCRETION RATE AT THE ENRICHED SITE.
GIVEN THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WETLANDS, WHAT IS
THE MECHANISM THAT HYDROPERIOD AFFECTS PEAT
ACCRETION?
A. HOW DOES HYDROPERIOD AFFECT ACCRETION?
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. OKAY. AS AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU GO OUT HERE IN THE
FRONT YARD WHERE THE FESCUE IS GROWING, THERE IS
NO HYDROPERIOD THERE; IT'S AN UPLAND AREA. AND
BECAUSE IT'S VERY SELDOM WET, EXCEPT DURING A RAIN
OR AFTERWARDS, YOU DON'T ANY KIND OF PEAT
ACCUMULATION. PEAT ONLY FORMS IN THESE
DEPOSITIONAL AREAS THAT ARE WET MOST, IF NOT ALL,
OF THE TIME. SO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THIS WETNESS
FACTOR TO GET PEAT TO BUILD UP.
Q. OKAY. BUT THAT'S A WETLAND. WE'RE IN A WETLAND.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 244
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT---
A. BUT I'M SAYING -- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A WETLAND
THAT'S ONLY WET THREE MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR, IT
WOULD QUALIFY AS A WETLAND. YOU PROBABLY WOULD
NOT HAVE SIGNIFICANT PEAT ACCUMULATION. NO, IF
IT'S WET DURING THE GROWING SEASON, IT WOULD BE A
WETLAND. BUT IF YOU HAVE A WETLAND THAT'S WET
NINE TO TWELVE MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR, YOU WOULD
MORE THAN LIKELY HAVE PEAT STARTING TO BUILDUP.
IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE PLANT SPECIES, TOO, THOUGH.
Q. YOU'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THINGS GROW MORE IF THEY
GET ENOUGH WATER AND FERTILIZER?
A. NO, IT'S THE -- IT'S THAT THE DECOMPOSITION IS
SLOWED BY THE WETLANDS.
Q. OKAY. FURTHER ON DOWN YOU SAY THAT THESE LARGE
ADDITIONS OF NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS MAY INCREASE
NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY. ARE YOU WITH ME?
A. WHAT LINE? NO, I'M NOT WITH YOU. OH, I SEE IT
NOW.
Q. FOURTEEN, FIFTEEN.
A. OKAY.
Q. OF EMERGENT VEGETATION, THEREBY INCREASING THE
AMOUNT OF DETRITUS POTENTIALLY AVAILABLE AS PEAT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 245
THIS NITROGEN AND PHOSPHORUS POTENTIALLY
INCREASING NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY OF EMERGENT
VEGETATION, IS THIS COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS
EUTROPHICATION?
A. IT COULD BE, BUT I DON'T THINK IT ALWAYS WOULD BE
SO. WELL, LARGE ADDITIONS MIGHT IMPLY
EUTROPHICATION, THAT'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT I'M
IMPLYING HERE, THOUGH.
Q. NOT EXACTLY?
A. OR -- NO, I'M NOT REALLY NECESSARILY THINKING
ABOUT THE IDEA OF EUTROPHICATION. I'M THINKING OF
A FERTILIZER EFFECT, ADDING A LIMITING NUTRIENT
AND STIMULATING GROWTH.
Q. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE EUTROPHICATION AT THE UPPER
END OF WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. I WOULD SAY IT'S NUTRIENT ENRICHED; THERE'S NO
QUESTION OF THAT.
Q. AND DO YOU EQUATE NUTRIENT ENRICHED WITH
EUTROPHICATION?
A. WELL, I'D HAVE TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF
EUTROPHICATION TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. I MEAN, I
THINK I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS, BUT I'M NOT READY JUST
TO COME OUT AND SAY THAT THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Q. WELL, THE TITLE OF CRAFT NUMBER SIXTEEN IS "PEAT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 246
ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION ALONG A
EUTROPHICATION GRADIENT IN THE NORTHERN
EVERGLADES."
A. WELL, I GUESS THERE I AM REFERRING TO
EUTROPHICATION, SO.
Q. SO, WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
A. I GUESS NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT, EUTROPHICATION,
PROBABLY MEAN AT LEAST HERE, THE SAME -- I'M USING
THEM TO MEAN THE SAME THING.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND, IN GENERAL, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE
HAPPENS TO AN ECOSYSTEM WHEN YOU ADD FERTILIZER?
A. YOU GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH, AMONG OTHER THINGS.
Q. WITH OR WITHOUT HYDROPERIODS?
A. YEAH, YOU WOULD GET AN INCREASE IN GROWTH WITH OR
WITHOUT HYDROPERIOD.
Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER THINGS CHANGE?
A. REPHRASE THE QUESTION OR BE MORE SPECIFIC.
Q. WOULD OTHER THINGS CHANGE WHEN YOU ADD FERTILIZER
TO A SYSTEM?
A. YOU MAY SEE CHANGES IN COMMUNITY COMPOSITION,
CHANGES IN PLANT COMMUNITIES, AND THAT SORT OF
THING.
Q. AT THE VARIOUS LEVELS---
A. RIGHT. RIGHT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 247
Q. ---MICROBIAL, PERIPHYTON---
A. SURE.
Q. ---MACROPHYTES, ETCETERA. OKAY. AT THE BOTTOM OF
THE PAGE, YOU INDICATE THAT INCREASED HYDROPERIOD
ALSO MAY ENHANCE PEAT ACCUMULATION BY REDUCING
AEROBIC DECOMPOSITION. WHAT ABOUT INCREASED
ANAEROBIC DECOMPOSITION, WHAT HAPPENS THERE?
A. WELL, YOU MAY SEE AN INCREASE ANAEROBIC
DECOMPOSITION, BUT AEROBIC DECOMPOSITION IS MUCH
MORE EFFICIENT, AND YOU GET GREATER DECOMPOSITION
UNDER AEROBIC CONDITIONS GENERALLY THAN UNDER
ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS. IT'S A MORE ENERGY
EFFICIENT PROCESS.
Q. WHAT IS THE ROLE OF METHANE IN CARBON CYCLING IN
MOST WETLANDS?
A. IT'S ONE OF THOSE -- IT INDICATES HIGHLY REDUCED
CONDITIONS IS WHEN YOU START TO SEE METHANE
PRODUCTION.
Q. YOU TALK AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 12 AND AT THE
BEGINNING OF 13 THAT THE NUTRIENT ENRICHED SITE --
I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 2A, AREN'T WE --
YEAH---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---2A RECEIVES AN AVERAGE -- AND YOU GIVE THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 248
FIGURE OF WATER EACH YEAR -- AND THUS, TENDS TO BE
WETTER THAN THE UNENRICHED SITE IN THE INTERIOR OF
2A. HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR DR. RADER'S REFLECTION
IN HIS WORK THAT THAT AREA GOES DRY THREE TO SIX
WEEKS, WHILE THE UNENRICHED SITES FURTHER DOWN
STAY WET? ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT I'M TALKING
ABOUT?
A. NOT REALLY, BUT -- BUT MY UNENRICHED LOCATIONS ARE
NOT THE SAME AS HIS UNENRICHED LOCATIONS.
Q. OKAY. YOUR UNENRICHED BEING NEAR THE 217 GAUGE,
AND HIS BEING STRAIGHT DOWN---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---WHAT, ON 10D?
A. RIGHT. MINE ARE MORE TO THE SOUTH AND THE WEST OF
THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND HIS ARE DUE SOUTH.
Q. OKAY. YOUR ENRICHED LOCATION IS THE SAME, THOUGH,
IS IT NOT?
A. IN THE SAME GENERAL AREA, SURE.
Q. OKAY.
A. I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, I STARTED COLLECTING
SAMPLES IN 1989, AND THIS WAS BEFORE DR. RADER
CAME TO WORK, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS---
Q. OKAY. OKAY. SO, THINGS HAVE GONE DRY SINCE THEN
OR WHAT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 249
A. I DON'T KNOW. BUT JUST IF YOU LOOK AT THE
ELEVATION OF THE SOIL SURFACE ON MAPS THERE, OUR
UNENRICHED SITE SITS HIGHER THAN THESE AREAS DUE
SOUTH.
Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU'VE INDICATED AT THE BEGINNING --
IF YOU REMEMBER, WE STARTED AT THE BEGINNING OF
THE DAY, AND I ASKED YOU WHAT YOUR HYDROPERIOD
DATA WAS. AND YOU SAID THAT IT WAS AS REFLECTED
IN THE SWIM PLAN. YOU HAD EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD
VERSUS OVERDRAINED, AND IT WAS SORT OF LIKE A
GROSS---
A. UH-HUH (YES). RIGHT.
Q. ---HYDROPERIOD DATA. NOW, YOU REALLY SEEM TO BE
GOING TO A DIFFERENT TYPE OF HYDROPERIOD
INFORMATION. WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM?
A. AGAIN, THIS IS INFORMATION FROM THE SWIM PLAN.
LET'S SEE WHO I CITE HERE.
Q. YOU CITE THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WATER GOES IN AT
THE TOP, BUT YOU DON'T CITE WHERE YOU FIND THAT
IT'S WETTER THAN YOUR UNENRICHED SITE.
A. ALL I DO IS LOOK AT THIS MAP SHOWING THE ELEVATION
OF THE SURFACE PEAT IN 2A, AND IT SHOWS THAT AREA
TO THE SOUTH AND WEST BEING ONE FOOT, OR MAYBE A
LITTLE BIT MORE, HIGHER THAN THOSE AREAS DUE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 250
SOUTH.
Q. OKAY. YOU HAVE A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP?
A. IT WAS A FIGURE OUT OF THE SWIM PLAN. I'D HAVE TO
GO BACK AND SEE IF I COULD FIND---
Q. BUT YOU LOOKED AT A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP OF 2A, AND
THEN YOU INFERRED THAT IT WOULD BE---
A. RIGHT, I INFERRED, CERTAINLY.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU CORROBORATE THAT FROM WATER LEVELS,
OR SOMETHING WITHIN THERE?
A. NO, NOPE.
Q. YOU JUST LOOKED AT THE TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP AND
DECIDED THAT ONE AREA WAS WETTER THAN THE OTHER?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. GOING DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF 13, YOU
INDICATE THAT, "PEAT ACCRETION IS GREATEST IN
AREAS THAT ARE EXPOSED TO EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD
(12A, 12C AND/OR NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT) WATER
CONSERVATION 2A ENRICHED." WHICH APPEARS TO BE
MORE CONTROLLING, DR. CRAFT?
A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. IF I KNEW THE ANSWER TO
THAT, I'D PROBABLY BE A WEALTHY GUY, AND THE
PROBLEM WOULD BE RESOLVED, BUT---
Q. DON'T COUNT ON IT.
A. ---I MIGHT NOT BE WEALTHY, BUT THE PROBLEM MIGHT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 251
BE CLOSER TO BEING RESOLVED.
Q. YOU HAVE NOT IN YOUR OWN MIND MADE SOME VALUE
JUDGMENT AS TO WHICH IS CONTRIBUTING MORE TO PEAT
ACCRETION?
A. NO, NO. I THINK THEY BOTH PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT
ROLE, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK SOMEBODY SHOULD BE
DOING WORK TO TRY TO SEPARATE THOSE OUT.
Q. BUT THEY'RE NOT?
A. I DON'T KNOW. AS FAR AS I KNOW, YOU KNOW, I'M
NOT; I DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE.
Q. OKAY. AT THE TOP OF 14, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
THESE SOIL ELEVATIONS, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
TOPOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION YOU FOUND IN THE SWIM
PLAN?
A. YES. ACTUALLY I'M TALKING -- I CITE WORTH AND A
PAPER BY WALTERS, ET AL.
Q. BUT ARE THOSE SITES THAT WERE IN THE SWIM PLAN, OR
DID YOU GO TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FOR YOUR---
A. WORTH IS A DISTRICT TECHNICAL REPORT, AND WALTERS
IS A PAPER THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN ECOLOGICAL
APPLICATIONS THIS YEAR.
Q. BUT YOU MADE YOUR ASSUMPTIONS BASED UPON THE
TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP, IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. WELL, AND ALSO THESE TWO.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 252
Q. YOU FORGOT THEM?
A. RIGHT. SURE. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT I
HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THIS PAPER IN THREE OR FOUR
MONTHS, SO.
Q. YOU DIDN'T REVIEW YOUR PAPER BEFORE COMING TODAY?
A. NO, I HAVE TOO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO, AND THIS
IS NOT THE HIGHEST OF MY PRIORITIES.
Q. DO YOU THINK THAT PHOSPHORUS CAN ACCELERATE PEAT
ACCRETION IN AN AREA OF STABLE HYDROPERIOD?
A. WE'RE REFERRING TO THE EVERGLADES?
Q. YES.
A. I THINK SO. I THINK IT PROBABLY CAN.
Q. OKAY. THAT BEING SO, THEN WHY WOULDN'T YOU THINK
THAT PHOSPHORUS WOULD BE THE MORE CONTRIBUTING
FACTOR?
A. WELL, I THINK THAT IF YOU ENHANCED -- UNDER LEVEL
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATIONS, YOU COULD ENHANCE PEAT
ACCRETION BY INCREASING HYDROPERIOD, TOO, THOUGH.
Q. DO YOU REALLY? IF YOU HAD THE SAME LEVEL OF
PHOSPHORUS COMING IN AND YOU INCREASE THE WATER,
YOU THINK THAT YOU WOULD AUTOMATICALLY INCREASE
THE PEAT ACCRETION?
A. I THINK YOU COULD, YEAH.
Q. COULD OR WOULD?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 253
A. I THINK YOU COULD.
Q. DO YOU THINK IF YOU HAD STABLE HYDROPERIOD AND YOU
ADDED INCREASED PHOSPHORUS, WOULD YOU INCREASE THE
PEAT ACCRETION -- ACCELERATE IT?
A. DIDN'T YOU JUST ASK ME THIS QUESTION, AND I
SAID---
Q. YEAH.
A. ---YES.
Q. BUT WOULD YOU?
A. I THINK YOU COULD.
Q. BUT YOU AREN'T MORE CERTAIN ABOUT THAT ONE?
A. I'VE SAID IT FIVE OR SIX TIMES.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THE WITNESS HAS
ANSWERED THE QUESTION THREE OR FOUR TIMES.
LET'S MOVE ON.
WITNESS: THANK YOU, RALPH.
MS. PONZOLI: I'VE BEEN VERY COURTEOUS,
MR. McCAUGHAN.
MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M JUST -- I'M --
HE'S ANSWERED IT, AND HE'S ANSWERED IT, AND
YOU KEEP ASKING AND ASKING.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK---
MR. McCAUGHAN: SO, ALL I'M SAYING IS
LET'S MOVE ON---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 254
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, I THINK IT'S A
VERY---
MR. McCAUGHAN: ---IF WE'RE EVER GOING
TO FINISH THIS.
MS. PONZOLI: WELL, WE'RE GOING TO
FINISH TOMORROW, WE'RE NOT GOING TO FINISH
TODAY. AND, YOU KNOW, IT JUST GETS SLOWER
WHEN IT GETS DIFFICULT.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) OVER ON 16, DR. CRAFT, YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT NITROGEN REMOVAL OR NITROGEN
RETAINED IN THE MARSH, AND YOU SAY, IN CONTRAST
SEVENTY-EIGHT PERCENT OF THE PHOSPHORUS ENTERING
WATER CONSERVATION 2A IS REMOVED BY THIS
IMPOUNDMENT. WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER AN IMPOUNDMENT,
DR. CRAFT?
A. I WOULD CONSIDER CONSERVATION AREA 2A AN
IMPOUNDMENT.
Q. IS IT A TYPICAL IMPOUNDMENT?
A. I DON'T KNOW WHAT A TYPICAL IMPOUNDMENT IS. IT
HAS BEEN DIKED; IT HAS SIDES; IT HAS CANALS AROUND
THE PERIMETER.
Q. ALL RIGHT. IT HAS WATER COMING IN AND WATER GOING
OUT---
A. RIGHT. BUT---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 255
Q. ---IS THAT RIGHT?
A. ---BUT IT'S NOT FREELY MOVING AS IT PROBABLY -- AS
IT ONCE WAS.
Q. AND SO WHEN SOMETHING IS NOT FREELY MOVING THAT
MAKES IT AN IMPOUNDMENT?
A. I -- THAT'S MY VIEW OF IT, YES.
Q. OKAY. ON PAGE 17 WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
RETENTION OF PHOSPHORUS IN EVERGLADES SURFACE
SOILS. IT SUGGESTS THAT PHOSPHORUS IS EFFICIENTLY
RECYCLED, A TREND OFTEN FOUND IN ECOSYSTEMS WHERE
PHOSPHORUS MAY LIMIT PRODUCTIVITY. DOES THIS
SUGGEST THAT PHOSPHORUS IS A LIMITING FACTOR IN
THIS SYSTEM?
A. WELL, IT CERTAINLY SUGGESTS IT, YES.
Q. OKAY. AT THE BOTTOM YOU'RE COMPARING, "EVERGLADES
SOILS ARE SEQUESTERING ORGANIC CARBON AT RATES
THAT ARE HIGHER THAN PEATLANDS IN COOLER CLIMATES,
AND SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN PEATLANDS IN WARM, HIGHLY
PRODUCTIVE ENVIRONMENTS." CAN YOU REALLY COMPARE
THESE WETLANDS -- THESE EVERGLADES WETLANDS WITH
TEMPERATE WETLANDS?
A. WELL, YOU CAN COMPARE THEM IN THE CONTEXT OF THE
ROLE OF WETLANDS WORLDWIDE IN CARBON STORAGE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT pH?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 256
A. WHAT ABOUT pH?
Q. WAS pH THE SAME IN BOTH OF THEM, IN THE TEMPERATE?
A. I DON'T KNOW THE -- THAT I DON'T KNOW. THAT WOULD
DEPEND ON THE WETLANDS. CERTAINLY MICHIGAN HAS
SOME CIRCUMNEUTRAL pH WETLANDS, AND I'M SURE THERE
ARE OTHER ONES WORLDWIDE.
Q. OKAY. DO MOST TROPICAL AND SUBTROPICAL SYSTEMS
ACCUMULATE CARBON?
A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T WORKED MUCH
IN THOSE.
Q. OKAY. WHAT OTHER WETLANDS SYSTEMS HAVE YOU WORKED
IN?
A. SALT WATER MARSHES, BRACKISH WATER MARSHES, AND
FRESHWATER MARSHES.
Q. WHERE?
A. NORTH CAROLINA.
Q. ALL IN NORTH CAROLINA?
A. UH-HUH (YES).
Q. OKAY. AND HOW WOULD YOU CATEGORIZE THOSE WETLANDS
VERSUS THE EVERGLADES?
A. SOME OF THEM ARE PEAT-BASED, AND I SEE SOME
SIMILARITIES. AND THEN SOME OF THEM ARE NOT
PEAT-BASED, AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE AS
COMPARABLE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 257
Q. WHAT ABOUT THE CLIMATE?
A. IT'S A LITTLE BIT COOLER, BUT, AGAIN, MY INTEREST
IS NOT SO MUCH IN COMPARING WETLANDS IN NORTH
CAROLINA AND FLORIDA, BUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND
JUST HOW WETLANDS SEQUESTER MATERIALS IN A GENERAL
SORT OF WAY.
Q. ON 18 YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NITROGEN FIXATION BY
PERIPHYTON MAY ACCOUNT FOR THE ADDITIONAL
AMOUNT -- I'M NOT GOING TO READ THE NUMBER -- THAT
ACCUMULATES ANNUALLY IN INTERIOR LOCATIONS.
MR. BURGESS: COULD YOU JUST GIVE
THE LINE NUMBER ON THAT?
MS. PONZOLI: OH, I'M SORRY, SURE.
THIRTEEN, FOURTEEN AND FIFTEEN.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO EVERGLADES PERIPHYTON
ACTUALLY FIX NITROGEN?
A. I DON'T KNOW; I'VE NEVER MEASURED IT, BUT I WOULD
THINK THERE ARE A LOT BLUE-GREEN ALGAE, AND I
WOULD THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME NITROGEN FIXERS IN
THERE.
Q. YOU COULDN'T GIVE ME ANY RATES?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY.
A. NOW, RON HERE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU SOME
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 258
RATES.
Q. HIS DEPO'S NOT BEING TAKEN, YET. ALL RIGHT.
THERE'S A CONCEPT ON 19, ON LINES NINE THROUGH
SIXTEEN, THAT I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT. YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT, "THE ENRICHED AREA RECEIVING SIX
TIMES AS MUCH PHOSPHORUS AND EIGHT TIMES AS MUCH
NITROGEN AS THE UNENRICHED AREA. AND AS A RESULT
THE EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL AT THE
ENRICHED LOCATION WAS LESS, AS COMPARED TO THE
UNENRICHED, SUGGESTING THAT THE ENRICHED AREA MAY
BE APPROACHING SATURATION WITH RESPECT TO
PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION." WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
SATURATION?
A. THAT IT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO STORE ANY MORE ON A PER
ANNUAL BASIS. THAT IT MAY HAVE REACHED SOME SORT
OF, YOU KNOW, CRITICAL ACCUMULATION RATE. WHEREAS
IF YOU ADD MORE TO THE SYSTEM THAN THAT AMOUNT, IT
WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STORE IT.
Q. AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN?
A. IT WILL PROBABLY MOVE ON DOWNSTREAM.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW CLOSE TO A SATURATION
THAT AREA IS?
A. NO. AGAIN, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE VERY
USEFUL INFORMATION, I THINK.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 259
Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S AT
SATURATION?
A. I'M REALLY NOT SURE HOW TO DO THAT.
Q. DO YOU JUST MONITOR TO SEE IF IT'S MOVING
DOWNSTREAM?
A. SURE, THAT'S ONE WAY TO DO IT.
Q. AND YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE FRONT IS --
THEORETICAL FRONT IS MOVING?
A. AND SET UP PERMANENT PLOTS AND SEE HOW THE
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION CHANGES OVER TIME AND THE
SURFACE WATER.
Q. OKAY. YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE AT THE
UNENRICHED SITE A HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND
THIRTY-THREE PERCENT EFFICIENCY OF PHOSPHORUS
REMOVAL.
A. I SEE IT.
Q. OKAY. HOW DO YOU GET A HUNDRED AND THIRTY-THREE
PERCENT EFFICIENCY?
A. WELL, I HAVE TO GO TO TABLE 3 AND SEE WHAT THE
NUMBERS COME OUT TO BE. WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE
INPUT RATE, WHICH IS -- ARE WE TALKING THE
UNENRICHED AREA -- .06 GRAMS P PER METER SQUARED
PER YEAR, WHICH WE ASSUME IS COMING IN IN
RAINFALL, AND THE ACCUMULATION RATE IS .06 TO .08.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 260
SO, YOU JUST DIVIDE THOSE AND YOU COME UP WITH ONE
HUNDRED TO A HUNDRED AND THIRTY-THREE PERCENT.
BUT AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THIS IS SORT OF
WITHIN THE REALM OF WHAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT IN
SCIENCE. A RANGE OF -- IT'S PRETTY GOOD
AGREEMENT, I WOULD SAY.
Q. I'M NOT A SCIENTIST, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE YOU MIGHT
HAVE A THIRTY-THREE PERCENT ERROR THERE.
A. OH, CERTAINLY. WELL, MAYBE THE RAINFALL
INPUT'S -- YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT'S .07 OR .08. WE
MAY BE OFF A LITTLE BIT ON OUR ACCUMULATION RATE
DATA. BUT, AGAIN, THIS PAPER HAS BEEN ACCEPTED BY
A JOURNAL, AND THE REVIEWERS HAVE SEEN IT, AND
THEY MUST -- THEY'VE DONE THIS SORT OF WORK, I
PRESUME, AND IT'S NOT -- AGAIN, IT'S IN THE
BALLPARK.
Q. OKAY. SO, THOSE ARE THE TWO VARIABLES THAT YOU
THINK MIGHT BE OFF, THE ACCUMULATION RATE OR THE
RAINFALL?
A. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE OFF. THEY DON'T MATCH UP
A HUNDRED PERCENT. BUT IN -- IT'S AN IMPERFECT
WORLD, AND THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS YOU FIND.
Q. PAGE 21, LINES 13, 14, 15, "THE LOW RATES OF
PHOSPHORUS STORAGE IN UNENRICHED EVERGLADES SOIL
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 261
PROBABLY REFLECT THE HISTORICALLY LOW INPUTS OF
PHOSPHORUS TO THIS SYSTEM." HOW DO YOU DEFINE A
LOW INPUT, DR. CRAFT?
A. I DON'T KNOW HOW I DEFINE IT. HERE I DEFINE IT AS
AROUND THAT -- PROBABLY LESS THAN A TENTH OF GRAM
PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR, SINCE THE NUMBERS ARE
.06 TO .08.
Q. OKAY.
A. AGAIN, THESE ARE BALLPARK KINDS OF NUMBERS.
Q. PAGE 22, "ECOLOGICAL APPLICATION," YOU INDICATE,
"THE NUTRIENT ENRICHED AREA HAS FUNCTIONED
EFFECTIVELY" -- LINES 9 AND 10 -- "AS A PHOSPHORUS
SINK FOR THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS." AND YOU'VE
ALSO INDICATED, "THAT IT MAY BE REACHING
SATURATION." THEN YOU GO ON TO TALK ABOUT HOW
MUCH WOULD BE NEEDED IF WE WERE TO BUILD A
FLOW-THROUGH OR AN STA. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
BY A FLOW-THROUGH -- A FLOWWAY---
A. SURE.
Q. ---OR AN STA?
A. RIGHT. SURE.
Q. TO HANDLE THE -- WHAT DO YOU HAVE HERE, FORTY-FIVE
METRIC TONS? I THINK WE HAD SAID BEFORE IT WAS
FIFTY-FOUR METRIC TONS, HADN'T WE---
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 262
A. I DON'T---
Q. ---COMING INTO WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. I DON'T SEE THE NUMBER YOU'RE REFERRING TO.
MR. BURGESS: TWENTY-ONE.
MR. RICHARDSON: TWENTY-ONE.
Q. TWENTY-ONE, LINE TWENTY-ONE.
A. WELL, THAT'S IF BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES CAN
REDUCE---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---THE INPUT BY FORTY-FIVE METRIC TONS.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOUR ASSUMPTIONS HAVE BEEN MADE
BASED ON WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A, IS THAT
ACCURATE?
A. SURE.
Q. OKAY. IS WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A MANAGED FOR
NUTRIENTS?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I THINK -- MY UNDERSTANDING
IS IT'S MANAGED FOR WATER SUPPLY AND FLOOD
CONTROL, IS MY UNDERSTANDING.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WERE TO MANAGE AN STA OR
A FLOWWAY SYSTEM, COULDN'T IT BE SIZED DOWN?
A. YEAH, CONCEIVABLY. IF YOU IMPLEMENTED THE RIGHT
MANAGEMENT PRACTICES, YOU COULD -- THE ACREAGE
COULD CHANGE, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 263
Q. OKAY. SO, YOUR LARGER ACREAGE -- JUST SO WE'RE
BOTH CLEAR WITH ONE ANOTHER -- YOUR LARGER ACREAGE
IS BASED UPON AN UNMANAGED SYSTEM COMPARABLE TO
2A?
A. RIGHT. IF THEY WANT TO REMOVE PHOSPHORUS AS --
THROUGH PEAT ACCUMULATION UNDER THESE KIND OF
CONDITIONS, THIS IS PROBABLY WHAT THEY WOULD SEE.
Q. OKAY. WHEN WE COME TO YOUR CONCLUSIONS YOU
INDICATE THAT DENITRIFICATION MAY BE IMPORTANT IN
REMOVING NITROGEN IN AREAS RECEIVING AGRICULTURAL
DRAINAGE, BUT AT THIS TIME THERE'S NO INFORMATION
TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS. COULD YOU DO A SIMPLE MASS
BALANCE CALCULATION TO DO THAT?
A. I DON'T THINK IT -- I THINK WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS
TO GO OUT AND MEASURE DENITRIFICATION.
Q. AND HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT?
A. WELL, I THINK -- AGAIN, I'M NOT AN EXPERT AT THIS;
I'M NOT SURE IF THERE'S SOME SORT OF ACETYLENE
REDUCTION TECHNIQUE OR SOMETHING. I REALLY DON'T
KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT DENITRIFICATION TO GO OUT AND
MEASURE IT.
Q. OKAY. IF WE TAKE YOUR STATEMENT ON PAGE 23,
EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN AND TWENTY, "THAT REDUCED
HYDROPERIOD IN INTERIOR PARTS OF 2A AND 3A AND THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 264
NORTHERN PART OF 3A HAVE GENERALLY RESULTED IN
REDUCED RATES OF PEAT ACCRETION," CAN WE SAY THE
CONVERSE?
MR. McCAUGHAN: I'M SORRY, SUZAN,
EXCUSE ME. WHAT LINE?
MS. PONZOLI: EIGHTEEN, NINETEEN AND
TWENTY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY, THANKS.
MS. PONZOLI: ON PAGE 23.
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY, THANKS.
A. THAT ENHANCED HYDROPERIOD---
Q. RIGHT.
A. ---COULD INCREASE?
Q. RIGHT.
A. YEAH, I THINK IT COULD DO THAT.
Q. OKAY. THAT'S YOUR BELIEF IS THAT THAT WOULD
HAPPEN, THAT'S WHAT WE HAD DISCUSSED JUST A LITTLE
WHILE AGO?
A. WELL, I THINK IT COULD HAPPEN, BUT I THINK YOU CAN
ALSO ADD TOO MUCH WATER AND KILL THE PLANTS---
Q. SURE.
A. ---AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. AND, AGAIN, THIS
IS -- I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT COULD BE
DONE RELATING TO THIS QUESTION.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 265
Q. DR. CRAFT, I'D LIKE TO MOVE ONTO EXHIBIT NUMBER
SIXTEEN. DO YOU HAVE A MORE RECENT DRAFT OF THIS,
THAN SIXTEEN?
A. YOU-ALL HAVE MY LATEST INFORMATION, SO, YEAH.
Q. OKAY.
A. I'D LOVE TO HAVE A MORE RECENT DRAFT, BUT I'M TOO
BUSY DEALING WITH YOU-ALL, I'M AFRAID, AND
TEACHING A CLASS.
MR. McCAUGHAN: SUZAN, IS THAT THE
MOST -- IS THAT THE ONE THAT YOU HAD THE
LIMITED NUMBER---
MS. PONZOLI: UH-HUH (YES).
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY.
MS. PONZOLI: BUT I DID PASS OUT
SEVERAL.
MR. McCAUGHAN: OKAY.
(THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN
OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION
WHICH WAS NOT REPORTED
BY THE COURT REPORTER.)
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DR. CRAFT, YOU'VE INDICATED
SEVERAL TIMES THAT WE'RE TAKING UP A LOT OF YOUR
TIME. ARE YOU DOING OTHER THINGS RELATED TO THIS
LITIGATION, OTHER THAN GETTING YOUR DOCUMENTS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 266
TOGETHER AND COMING TO DEPOSITIONS?
A. NO.
MR. BURGESS: OBJECT TO THE FORM
OF THE QUESTION.
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. I JUST WANTED TO BE CLEAR THAT---
A. I MEAN, BUT I'M TEACHING; I SUPERVISE STUDENTS; I
TRY TO DO RESEARCH; AND I HAVE A FAMILY, SO, IT
EATS INTO MY TIME, SO.
Q. I FOUND IN SOME OF YOUR DOCUMENTS SOME MATERIALS
THAT HAD BEEN FORWARDED TO YOU BY A MR. PAUL
LARSON. HAVE YOU EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY
MEETINGS WITH MR. LARSON?
A. NO. HE WAS INVOLVED -- THE FIRST DAY ON THE JOB
WE WENT OUT AND TOOK SAMPLES, AND HE WAS WITH US,
AND HE PROVIDED ACTUALLY THE LORAN-C COORDINATES
FOR OUR LOCATIONS.
Q. HAVE YOU MET WITH HIM SINCE THAT TIME?
A. I DON'T THINK SO. I MIGHT HAVE MET HIM AT A
MEETING, BUT -- IN KEY LARGO, BUT I DON'T EXACTLY
REMEMBER, BUT---
Q. WAS THIS AN EVERGLADES COALITION TYPE MEETING?
A. THIS WAS A SYMPOSIUM ON THE EVERGLADES---
Q. OH.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 267
A. ---YOU MAY HAVE BEEN THERE, I DON'T KNOW, SO.
Q. I WAS THERE. SO WERE A LOT OF US.
A. RIGHT. THAT GOES WITHOUT SAYING.
Q. OKAY. WHAT DO YOU TEACH? YOU INDICATED YOU
TEACH.
A. A COURSE IN APPLIED ECOLOGY.
Q. JUST THE ONE COURSE, AND THAT WAS WITH THE SIXTY
SOMETHING STUDENTS?
A. RIGHT AND TWO LABS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT TEXTBOOKS DO YOU USE FOR THE
ECOLOGY COURSE?
A. WE USE THIS BOOK BY WALT WESTMAN, I CAN'T THINK OF
THE EXACT TITLE OF IT.
Q. OKAY.
A. BUT SOMETHING LIKE RESOURCE ECOLOGY AND
MANAGEMENT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT CRAFT
NUMBER SIXTEEN. YOU'RE STILL DEALING WITH THIS
CONCEPT OF PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT
ACCUMULATION, AND IF I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY,
INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH THESE SEVEN SITES THAT
WERE IN FIGURE -- I THINK IT WAS ONE ATTACHED TO
CRAFT NUMBER FIVE, YOU'RE DEALING WITH YOUR
NUTRIENT GRADIENT, IS THAT RIGHT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 268
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU FINDING THE SAME CONCLUSIONS FROM
THAT WORK THAT YOU FOUND IN YOUR OTHER WORK SPREAD
ACROSS THE EVERGLADES?
A. THE SAME GENERAL CONCLUSIONS.
Q. OKAY. AND THOSE GENERAL CONCLUSIONS ARE?
A. THAT NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT SEEMS TO ENHANCE PEAT
ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION. THIS PAPER
HERE DOES NOT REALLY ADDRESS HYDROPERIOD---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---SO---
Q. OKAY.
A. ---I MEAN, THE FIRST PAPER SORT OF ALLOWED US TO
FIGURE OUT WHERE WE NEED TO HONE IN AND LOOK MORE
IN-DEPTH AT THE ENRICHMENT PROBLEM. AND SO THIS
PAPER GOES TO THAT AREA, THE NORTHERN PART OF
CONSERVATION AREA 2A.
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU CHOSE NOT TO LOOK AT HYDROPERIOD,
IS THAT RIGHT?
A. WELL, AGAIN, WE JUST -- THE DATA DOES NOT EXIST
FOR THESE POINTS -- FOR THESE LOCATIONS. AGAIN,
TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF HYDROPERIOD DATA AT THESE
EIGHTEEN POINTS WOULD BE GREAT, BUT IT'S JUST NOT
THERE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 269
Q. SO, YOU JUST WENT TO THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT
BECAUSE THAT YOU CAN PULL DATA ON, IS THAT
ACCURATE?
A. YEAH, TO SOME EXTENT. IT'S CERTAINLY EASIER TO
ACCESS THAN HYDROPERIOD OVER THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS.
Q. OKAY. YOU SAID THE SAME GENERAL CONCLUSIONS.
IMPLICITLY THERE ARE SOME DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS,
WHAT ARE THOSE?
A. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PAPER.
Q. OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A SECOND AND TELL ME.
A. AND I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT BOTH PAPERS, AND I
REALLY -- AM I BEING ASKED TO PERFORM HERE, OR CAN
YOU JUST ASK THE QUESTIONS?
Q. NO, I JUST WANT YOU TO TELL ME GENERALLY WHAT'S
THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE YOU'RE
FINDING IN YOUR GRADIENT WORK VERSUS YOUR---
A. I DON'T -- I DON'T SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENCES. WE
SEE ENHANCED PEAT ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT
ACCUMULATION, ESSENTIALLY.
Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN YOU SAID THE SAME GENERAL
CONCLUSIONS, YOU WERE NOT IMPLYING THAT THERE WERE
DIFFERENCES?
A. WELL, I DON'T WANT TO COME OUT AND, YOU KNOW, JUST
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 270
SPEAK THAT I KNOW A HUNDRED PERCENT OF, YOU KNOW,
WHAT I SAID IN HERE WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT. SO,
I'M KIND OF HEDGING A LITTLE BIT IN CASE YOU COME
BACK AND SAY, WELL, A MINUTE AGO YOU SAID THIS,
BUT NOW YOU'RE SAYING THIS.
Q. OKAY. I THINK---
A. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Q. IT WASN'T A TRICK QUESTION; I WASN'T LOOKING TO
TRICK YOU. SO, I'M JUST GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU
THINK YOU'RE COMING TO THE SAME BASIC CONCLUSIONS,
AND IF YOU FIND SOMETHING DIFFERENT THEN WE'LL
DISCUSS IT WHEN YOU COME TO IT---
A. OKAY. SURE, THAT'S GREAT.
Q. ---THAT SEEMS FAIR. OKAY, IN THIS PAPER YOU LOOK
AT SIX LOCATIONS ALONG THREE TRANSECTS, AND YOU'RE
MEASURING CESIUM BULK DENSITY AND NUTRIENT
CONTENT, RIGHT?
A. CORRECT.
Q. OKAY. YOUR SIX LOCATIONS, ARE THEY -- IS THERE A
CHART IN HERE, THAT I DON'T RECALL, THAT SHOWS ME
WHERE THEY ARE?
A. THIS IS IT, THESE -- HERE ARE THE THREE TRANSECTS
AND THE SIX POINTS ON THE THREE.
Q. OKAY. YOU DID SIX ON EACH ONE?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 271
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY.
A. SO, A TOTAL OF EIGHTEEN POINTS.
Q. OKAY. DID YOU CHOSE THESE SITES; WERE YOU THE ONE
WHO CHOSE TO GO TO THOSE?
A. I THINK DR. RICHARDSON AND I CHOSE THEM.
Q. OKAY. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU CONSIDERED IN
CHOOSING THOSE SITES?
A. WELL, WE WANTED TO RUN EACH TRANSECT SOUTH OF A
WATER CONTROL STRUCTURE. SO, THAT'S HOW WE
ORIENTED THE LINES, AND THEN THE TRANSECT POINTS
ARE ESSENTIALLY EVENLY-SPACED, JUST TO TRY TO
DETERMINE THE EFFECTS OF ENRICHMENT ON PEAT
ACCRETION AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, AND ALSO HOW
FAR DOWNSTREAM THE ENRICHMENT, YOU KNOW, EXTENDS.
Q. OKAY. ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS YOU TALK ABOUT,
"SODIUM ENRICHMENT OF THE SOIL WAS EVIDENT ONLY
WITHIN ONE POINT FIVE KILOMETERS OF THE HILLSBORO
CANAL." WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS?
A. WELL, WE THOUGHT THAT SODIUM MIGHT PLAY A ROLE IN
THE ENCROACHMENT OF CATTAIL INTO SAWGRASS AREAS.
AND WE HAD SOME PRELIMINARY DATA THAT SUGGESTED
THAT SODIUM ENRICHMENT WAS OCCURRING IN AREAS
BELOW THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND THAT WAS THE MAIN
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 272
REASON WE LOOKED AT SODIUM.
Q. BUT YOU DIDN'T FIND THAT IT WAS THERE?
A. WELL, ONLY VERY CLOSE TO THE CANAL. IT CERTAINLY
DIDN'T EXTEND THAT FAR DOWNSTREAM.
Q. AND YOU COULDN'T ESTABLISH ANY RELATIONSHIP TO THE
ENCROACHMENT OF THE CATTAIL?
A. NO, I MEAN, WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY TRY TO, BUT WE
JUST DIDN'T SEE THE EXTENT OF SODIUM ENRICHMENT AS
WE SAW WITH PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT.
Q. OKAY.
A. THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT IS MUCH MORE WIDESPREAD
THAN THE SODIUM ENRICHMENT.
Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU CHOSE YOUR SITES, HOW DID YOU KNOW
HOW FAR THE ENRICHMENT EXTENDED?
A. WE DIDN'T KNOW. THAT'S WHY WE RAN THE LINES AND
THE SIX POINTS TO TRY TO DETERMINE THAT.
Q. OKAY. AND HOW DID YOU DETERMINE HOW FAR IT WENT?
A. WE LOOKED AT PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN THE
SOIL---
Q. UH-HUH (YES).
A. ---AND PEAT DEPOSITED IN THE PAST TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN HOW DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOU HAD
COME TO THE END OF THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 273
A. WHEN THE CONCENTRATION OF TOTAL P IN THE SOIL
LEVELED OFF, REACHED KIND OF A LEVEL, YOU KNOW,
THE VALUES WERE SIMILAR FROM ONE POINT TO THE
NEXT.
Q. OKAY. IN THAT GREENHOUSE EXPERIMENT THAT'S BEING
DONE BY THE GRADUATE STUDENT WE HAD DISCUSSED
EARLIER TODAY, WHAT IS THE FOCUS OF THAT WORK?
A. AGAIN, IT WAS RELATED TO DETERMINE IF SODIUM HAD A
ROLE IN CATTAIL ENCROACHMENT INTO SAWGRASS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHO SET UP THE DESIGN OF THAT
EXPERIMENT?
A. I HELPED AND JANE RAIKES, WHO'S THE STUDENT, YOU
KNOW, DID THE LION'S SHARE OF THE WORK.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THE HYPOTHESIS OF IT?
A. AGAIN, SINCE I HAVEN'T SEEN IT RECENTLY, THE
HYPOTHESIS WAS THAT -- I THINK SHE HAD TWO. ONE,
THAT SODIUM LEVELS WOULD ENABLE -- OR ENHANCED
SODIUM LEVELS WOULD ENABLE CATTAIL TO MAYBE OUT
COMPETE OR TO OUT PERFORM SAWGRASS. NOT SO MUCH
MAYBE THAT -- YOU KNOW, SHE DIDN'T KNOW -- WE
DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER CATTAIL WOULD RESPOND MORE TO
SODIUM, OR WHETHER SAWGRASS WOULD RESPOND
ADVERSELY TO SODIUM---
Q. OKAY.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 274
A. ---SO, WE JUST WANTED TO SEE IF THERE WAS A SHIFT.
Q. RIGHT. AND THEN THE OTHER ONE?
A. SHE LOOKED AT THE EFFECT OF WATER LEVEL TO -- TWO
DIFFERENT WATER LEVELS. AND THAT -- THE
HYPOTHESIS THERE IS THAT CATTAIL -- SINCE THE DATA
SUGGESTS THAT CATTAIL SEEMS TO DO BETTER IN DEEPER
WATER THAN SAWGRASS, THAT DEEPER WATER LEVELS
WOULD ALLOW CATTAIL TO, AGAIN, OUT PERFORM
SAWGRASS.
Q. OKAY. AND WHAT CONCLUSIONS DID SHE COME TO?
A. SHE FOUND NO EFFECT OF SALT ON THE GROWTH OF
EITHER ONE.
Q. OKAY.
A. AND SHE DID FIND THAT SAWGRASS PRODUCED
SIGNIFICANTLY MORE DRY MATTER -- ABOVEGROUND DRY
MATTER -- IN THE SHALLOW FLOODED TREATMENTS AS
COMPARED TO CATTAIL, AND THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THE TWO IN THE DEEPER FLOODED.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. AND IF I
UNDERSTAND, MR. McCAUGHAN, ACCURATELY, THIS
WILL BE SUPPLIED TO US ONCE IT'S A FINAL
PAPER?
MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH, I HAVE NO PROBLEM,
AS SOON AS SHE -- SHE'S GOT NOW PUTTING THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 275
FINISHING TOUCHES ON IT.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: IT SHOULD BE READY THE
FIRST OF THE YEAR.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY. AND THEN EITHER
WITH OR WITHOUT THE PRODUCTION AT
DR. RICHARDSON'S DEPOSITION---
MR. McCAUGHAN: YEAH, I DON'T MIND
SENDING IT TO YOU.
MS. PONZOLI: ---IF I WANTED TO---
MR. McCAUGHAN: IF HE WANTED YOU---
MS. PONZOLI: ---ASK HIM FURTHER ABOUT
IT, I COULD ASK HIM AT THAT TIME?
MR. McCAUGHAN: SURE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SURE,
YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH DR. RICHARDSON HAS TO DO
WITH THE ACTUAL PAPER, OR THE SUPERVISION OF
IT, I'M NOT AWARE.
MS. PONZOLI: OKAY.
Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) ARE YOU HER SUPERVISING
PROFESSOR, OR IS DR. RICHARDSON?
A. HE IS -- ON PAPER HE IS THE MAN WHO APPROVES IT,
AND SIGNS OFF, AND ALLOWS HER TO GRADUATE.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 276
Q. WHO'S HER SUPERVISING PROFESSOR, YOU?
A. PROBABLY ME, THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE A FAIR
ASSESSMENT, YEAH.
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY SODIUM WORK DONE
ACTUALLY IN THE EAA?
A. NO. NO.
Q. SO, YOU'VE HEARD OF NO DATA THAT WOULD REFLECT
ELEVATED LEVELS OF SODIUM IN THE EAA?
A. NO, JUST OUR DATA. PRELIMINARY DATA SUGGESTED
SODIUM MIGHT HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY, AND SO THAT'S
WHY WE UNDERTOOK -- WE MEASURED IT IN THIS
EXPERIMENT, AND WHY WE SET UP THE GREENHOUSE
EXPERIMENT.
Q. HAVE YOU ANY DATA FROM THE HILLSBORO CANAL THAT
INDICATES ELEVATED SODIUM LEVELS?
A. I DON'T HAVE ANY. I'M SURE THAT THERE IS DATA ON
IT, BUT I DON'T HAVE IT.
Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THESE PAGES ARE DIFFICULT
BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T NUMBERED THEM.
A. RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A DRAFT.
Q. OKAY. I KNOW, I KNOW. DO YOU STILL THINK THAT
SODIUM PLAYS A ROLE, DR. CRAFT?
A. I DON'T REALLY THINK SO ANYMORE. I THOUGHT IT
MIGHT, BUT I THINK THE EXTENT OF ENRICHMENT HERE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 277
IS NOT THAT GREAT, AND ALSO I THINK THE GREENHOUSE
STUDY, YOU KNOW, REALLY SHOWED THAT NEITHER
SPECIES RESPONDED, YOU KNOW, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER TO
THE SALINITY -- TO THE SODIUM SALINITY TREATMENTS.
Q. SO, WE'VE ELIMINATED AT LEAST ONE PARAMETER WE CAN
WORRY ABOUT?
A. WELL, I -- I'M NOT SAYING RULE IT OUT COMPLETELY,
BUT I'M NOT SO INTERESTED IN IT ANYMORE. I MEAN,
I---
Q. OKAY. ON THE NEXT PAGE -- WE'RE JUST GOING TO
HAVE TO BE PRETTY CAREFUL AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS --
ON THE NEXT PAGE, I AM -- ABOUT IN THE LOWER
MID-HALF AFTER THE AERIAL EXTENT, IT SAYS,
"PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION ALONG THE GRADIENT IS A
FUNCTION OF SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION
DECREASING AS SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS DECREASES."
OKAY. IS THAT YOUR BELIEF THAT THIS HAPPENS?
A. WELL, I JUST THINK BASED ON THE SURFACE WATER
CHEMISTRY -- SURFACE WATER PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATIONS, AS IT GOES DOWN WITH DISTANCE, THE
ACCUMULATION RATE GOES DOWN. SO, THE DATA
SUPPORTS THAT OR SUGGESTS THAT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT SENTENCE SAYS THAT, "THESE
FINDINGS SUGGESTS THAT AS INFLOW PHOSPHORUS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 278
CONCENTRATIONS DECREASE, PROGRESSIVELY LARGER
WETLAND AREAS WILL BE NEEDED TO REMOVE THE SAME
AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS THAT IS SEQUESTERED IN A
SMALLER WETLAND EXPOSED TO HIGHER INPUT PHOSPHORUS
CONCENTRATIONS." I THINK THIS IS AN IMPORTANT
CONCEPT, I NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE DEALING
WITH. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PERCENTAGE OF
DECREASE?
A. NO, NO, JUST LIKE GRAMS PER METER SQUARED PER
YEAR.
Q. WHEN YOU GO -- LET ME JUST -- SO, I UNDERSTAND
THESE CONCEPTS. WHEN YOU GO FROM, LET'S SAY, A
HUNDRED AND FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION TO FIFTY PARTS
PER BILLION -- IF YOU WERE TRYING TO REDUCE THE
TOTAL PHOSPHORUS SURFACE WATER CONCENTRATIONS
COMING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS -- THE
AMOUNT OF LAND THAT YOU WOULD NEED, ARE YOU SAYING
THAT IF YOU WANTED TO GO FROM FIFTY PARTS PER
BILLION DOWN TO, LET'S SAY, TEN, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE
YOU GOING TO NEED AN INCREASINGLY LARGE AMOUNT OF
LAND, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
A. TO REMOVE -- LET'S SAY YOU WANT TO REMOVE TEN
METRIC TONS OF PHOSPHORUS, AND YOU HAVE AN INFLOW
CONCENTRATION OF FIFTY PARTS PER BILLION.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 279
Q. OKAY.
A. AND THEN -- BUT YOU ALSO -- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE
ANOTHER WETLAND THAT YOU WANT TO REMOVE TEN METRIC
TONS ALSO, BUT THE INFLOW CONCENTRATION THERE IS
ONLY TEN PARTS PER BILLION. I THINK THAT YOU'LL
NEED A LARGER AMOUNT OF AREA AT THAT -- TO REMOVE
THE SAME TEN METRIC TONS FOR THAT ONE THAT
RECEIVES TEN PARTS PER BILLION.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE RELATIONSHIP, AS YOU GO
FROM, LET'S SAY, FIFTY DOWN TO TEN, IS LINEAR?
A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, I DON'T KNOW.
Q. OKAY. I AM ADVISED THAT I NEED TO RETURN TO
CONCENTRATIONS AND NOT LOADING. SO, LET'S TRY IT
AGAIN AND SEE SO I CAN UNDERSTAND. I'M SURE THEY
ALL DO, BUT I NEED TO. IF WE GO FROM ONE FIFTY,
WHICH IS LARGELY WHAT'S COMING OFF THE EAA, DOWN
TO FIFTY -- FIFTY PPB CONCENTRATION TOTAL
PHOSPHORUS, LET'S SAY WE'VE SHIFTED, NOW WE WANT
TO -- IN A PERFECT WORLD, NOW WE WANT TO GO FROM
FIFTY PPB DOWN TO TEN, WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE
DIFFERENCE IN THE AMOUNT OF LAND? CONCENTRATION,
WE'RE LOOKING AT GETTING CONCENTRATIONS.
A. AGAIN, I'M JUST TALKING HERE ABOUT IF YOU WANT TO
MOVE THE SAME TONNAGE, OR, YOU KNOW, MASS, THEN IF
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 280
THE CONCENTRATION IS VERY HIGH YOU'LL ACHIEVE MORE
REMOVAL IN GROUNDS PER METER SQUARED PER YEAR THAN
IF YOU -- OR TONS, THAN IF YOU HAVE A MUCH LOWER
CONCENTRATION, BUT YOU WANT TO REMOVE THAT SAME
AMOUNT.
Q. SO, YOU ARE -- ALL OF YOUR STATEMENTS REFER ONLY
TO LOADING---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---IS THAT ACCURATE?
A. RIGHT.
Q. SO, YOUR STATEMENTS ARE NOT APPLICABLE IF YOU'RE
LOOKING AT CONCENTRATIONS---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---COMING INTO THE WATER CONSERVATION---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---AREA?
A. THIS PAPER, AS FAR AS I WOULD KNOW -- I WOULD HAVE
TO LOOK AT IT IN-DEPTH -- DOES NOT REALLY ADDRESS
THE CONCENTRATION QUESTION.
Q. OKAY. BUT LET ME ASK YOU, SINCE YOU'VE WORKED IN
THIS AREA, WHAT YOUR OPINION IS IN THAT REGARD.
A. OKAY. IF YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION OR SAY
IT AGAIN.
Q. WELL, WHAT I'M TRYING TO ASK YOU, ARE YOU GOING TO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 281
NEED INCREASING AMOUNTS OF LAND TO GET
INCREASINGLY LOWER CONCENTRATIONS?
A. IF YOU WANT TO REMOVE THE SAME AMOUNT---
Q. NO, NOT -- LET'S LEAVE THE LOAD ALONE, LET'S JUST
TALK ABOUT THE CONCENTRATION, CAN YOU DO IT THAT
WAY?
A. NOT -- NO. I MEAN, MAYBE IF I THOUGHT ABOUT IT
FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS I COULD, BUT RIGHT NOW, YOU
KNOW, I DON'T -- I CAN'T ADDRESS THE QUESTION.
Q. ALL RIGHT. AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE THAT WE'VE
JUST BEEN ON, YOU SAY, "INPUT RATES EXCEEDING THIS
LOADING COULD RESULT IN AN EXPANSION OF THE ELEVEN
THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES UNTIL A NEW
EQUILIBRIUM SIZE IS REACHED." DO YOU BELIEVE THAT
EQUILIBRIUM CAN BE HANDLED THROUGH MANAGEMENT
TECHNIQUES?
A. I THINK UP TO A POINT IT COULD BE -- TO SOME
EXTENT, CERTAINLY.
Q. WHAT WOULD THE POINT BE?
A. THAT I CANNOT -- I DON'T KNOW, I MEAN---
Q. YOU MEAN -- DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SITUATIONS
WHERE YOU SIMPLY COULDN'T MANAGE IT THROUGH
MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES?
A. SURE. I MEAN, IF IT WAS RECEIVING, SAY, TWO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 282
HUNDRED METRIC TONS OF P PER YEAR, I'M NOT SURE
ANY KIND OF MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES WOULD, YOU KNOW,
WOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP IT---
Q. OKAY. BECAUSE OF THIS---
A. RIGHT.
Q. ---BECAUSE OF THE SIZE---
A. BUT, I MEAN, I THINK THERE ARE---
Q. ---I MEAN, IT'S JUST INADEQUATE SIZING?
A. ---SOME TECHNIQUES THAT COULD BE POTENTIALLY BE
USED TO, YOU KNOW, TO KEEP IT -- TO HAVE IT
CONTINUE STORING PHOSPHORUS AND TO KEEP IT AT THE
SAME SIZE.
Q. OKAY. SUCH AS?
A. WELL, YOU CAN REMOVE THE VEGETATION, WHICH IS
SOMETHING EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT, BUT IT'S NOT
PRACTICAL, SO.
Q. WHY?
A. WELL, I CAN'T SEE ANYBODY GETTING INTO THOSE
PEAT-BASED WETLANDS AND TRYING TO CUT DOWN ALL
THAT SAWGRASS AND CATTAIL AND CARRYING IT OFF THE
SITE. I MEAN, YOU COULD DO IT, THE CORPS OF
ENGINEERS COULD DO IT, BUT THE COST WOULD JUST BE
OUT OF THIS WORLD. MAYBE SOME WATER LEVEL
MANIPULATION, YOU KNOW, COULD ENHANCE, OR, YOU
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 283
KNOW, BY INCREASING THE HYDROPERIOD SOME, MAYBE
ENHANCE THE BUILDUP OF PEAT AND PHOSPHORUS
STORAGE. AND THEN THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO FEEL
THAT DIFFERENT PLANT SPECIES REMOVE DIFFERENT
AMOUNTS OF PEAT, AND THAT MAYBE---
Q. DO YOU SUPPORT THAT BELIEF?
A. I THINK -- YEAH, BUT I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, YOU
KNOW, WHICH SPECIES DO BETTER THAN OTHERS, AND I
HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT SOME OF THAT TYPE OF WORK,
YOU KNOW, OR THOSE SORTS OF IDEAS.
Q. WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION?
A. WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT BECAUSE CATTAIL
IS MORE PRODUCTIVE YOU CAN SEQUESTER MORE
PHOSPHORUS. BUT MY EXPERIENCE IN THE FIELD IS IS
THAT IT MAY HAVE MORE PRODUCTIVITY, BUT I DON'T
THINK CATTAIL PRODUCES THE HIGH QUALITY RESISTANT
PEAT THAT SAWGRASS PRODUCES. I THINK CATTAIL
PROBABLY DECOMPOSES MORE QUICKLY THAN SAWGRASS,
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, BY MAYBE REPLACEMENT OF,
YOU KNOW, PUTTING CATTAIL IN TO ENHANCE
PRODUCTIVITY YOU MAY HAVE AN INCREASE IN
DECOMPOSITION THAT WILL OFFSET ANY INCREASE IN
PRODUCTION.
Q. IS THERE A GENERAL PRINCIPAL OF THINGS THAT GROW
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 284
FASTER ROT FASTER?
A. I DON'T KNOW, I'VE NOT HEARD THAT. BUT CATTAIL
HAS THIS AERENCHYMA TISSUE, AIRSPACES IN IT, AND
SAWGRASS HAS A LOT OF SILICA IN IT, WHICH IS VERY
RESISTANT. WELL, IT DOESN'T DECOMPOSE, IT'S
ESSENTIALLY LIKE QUARTZ ROCK, SO.
Q. IS ANYONE DOING ANY RESEARCH ON WHAT WOULD REMOVE
MORE AND HOLD IT LONGER?
A. NO, NO. NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.
Q. OKAY. WOULD THAT BE USEFUL FOR THESE ISSUES THAT
WE'RE LOOKING AT?
A. I THINK SO, YEAH.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY NO ONE'S LOOKING AT THAT?
A. HUH-UH (NO), I DON'T.
Q. OKAY.
A. SO MUCH TO DO; SO LITTLE TIME.
Q. UH-HUH (YES). JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, ARE YOU
IMPLYING THAT THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED
HECTARES IS CURRENTLY STABLE?
A. WHAT I'M IMPLYING -- AND IMPLY IS THE GOOD WORD, I
THINK, TO USE -- IS THAT IF IT'S CONTINUED TO LOAD
WITH ABOUT FIFTY METRIC TONS PER YEAR, WHICH IS
APPROXIMATELY THE STORAGE RATE, THEN IT
PROBABLY -- IT MAY WELL BE AN EQUILIBRIUM. BUT IF
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 285
YOU EXCEED THAT TO, SAY, EIGHTY METRIC TONS A YEAR
FOR ONE YEAR, YOU KNOW, I HAVE SOME CONCERNS AS TO
WHETHER IT WILL, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT WILL STAY AN
EQUILIBRIUM OR WHETHER IT'LL EXPAND, AND I SAY
THAT, SO.
Q. RIGHT. RIGHT. BUT WHAT WAS THE CONCEPT OF
SATURATION WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, HOW DOES THAT
FACTOR INTO THIS?
A. WELL, I THINK IT MAY BE AT FIFTY TO FIFTY-FIVE
METRIC TONS PER YEAR. ONE THING ABOUT PEAT
ACCRETION IS YOU DON'T SATURATE IT LIKE YOU WOULD
SATURATE A SOIL EXCHANGE COMPLEX WHERE YOU GET SO
MUCH PHOSPHORUS -- YOU KNOW, YOU FILL ALL THE
EXCHANGE SITES WITH PHOSPHORUS. REMEMBER, PEAT IN
THE EVERGLADES HAS BUILT UP OVER FIVE THOUSAND
YEARS, AND IN SOME PLACES WE HAVE THREE, FOUR
METERS OF PEAT. AND SO EVERY YEAR YOU CAN GET A
LITTLE BIT MORE INCREMENT OF PEAT BUILDING UP.
SO, I MEAN, IN TERMS OF SATURATION, I'M NOT
EXACTLY SURE IF THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE WAY TO
LOOK AT IT.
Q. IT WAS YOUR IDEA, WASN'T IT, THE SATURATION
CONCEPT?
A. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT I SAID.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 286
Q. WELL, DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT NOW?
A. SURE.
Q. CAUSE I THOUGHT YOU SAID IT, I DIDN'T BRING IT UP.
APPROACHING SATURATION WAS ON PAGE 19. YOU SAID
THAT -- ON PAGE 19, STARTING ON LINE NINE THROUGH
SIXTEEN---
A. NOW, IS THIS PREVIOUS -- THIS IS NUMBER FIVE?
Q. CRAFT FIVE, RIGHT, RIGHT. I MAY NOT UNDERSTAND
IT, BUT I'M BEGINNING TO KNOW YOUR PAPERS.
A. AND WHAT LINE?
Q. PAGE 19, LINES NINE THROUGH SIXTEEN, YOU TALK
ABOUT, "THE ENRICHED AREA MAY BE APPROACHING
SATURATION WITH RESPECT TO PHOSPHORUS
ACCUMULATION."
A. AND I DO SAY IT MAY BE APPROACHING SATURATION.
AND YOU ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS PRELIMINARY
WORK THAT WAS DONE BEFORE THIS WORK WAS PERFORMED.
Q. OH, SO, IN OTHER WORDS, CRAFT NUMBER FIVE IS
PRELIMINARY DATA, YOU BELIEVE THAT CRAFT NUMBER
SIXTEEN IS MORE COMPREHENSIVE DATA?
A. WELL, FOR THE ENRICHED AREA, NO QUESTION. THERE'S
NO QUESTION. THIS HAS TWO CORES FROM THE ENRICHED
AREA AND THIS HAS EIGHTEEN. SO -- AND THIS IS
PART OF THE ITERATIVE PROCESS. YOU GET SOME
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 287
INFORMATION, AND YOU TRY TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF
IT, AND YOU GO BACK TO THESE AREAS OF INTEREST AND
YOU COLLECT MORE INFORMATION.
Q. SO, AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY, WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF
REGARDING THE ENRICHED AREA, THE ELEVEN THOUSAND
FIVE HUNDRED HECTARES IN THE TOP OF WATER
CONSERVATION AREA 2A?
A. I AM NOT READY TO SAY THAT IT'S IN EQUILIBRIUM; I
THINK MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE. LIKE ANY
GOOD SCIENTIST WOULD SAY.
Q. IS THIS CALLED JOB SECURITY?
A. NO, IT'S JUST I'M NOT GOING TO STEP OUT ON A LIMB,
BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. I
THINK I HAVE SOME; SOME INFORMATION THAT POINTS US
IN CERTAIN DIRECTIONS, BUT I DON'T CLAIM TO HAVE
ALL THE ANSWERS TO THIS.
Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD WE KNOW? WHAT RESEARCH WOULD WE
DO TO DECIDE IF 2A, THE ELEVEN THOUSAND FIVE
HUNDRED HECTARES, IS IN EQUILIBRIUM?
A. I THINK THE CONTINUED MONITORING OF PERMANENT
PLOTS TO SEE WHETHER THE FRONT IS MOVING SOUTH.
BUT I THINK TO DO THAT, AND TO DETERMINE WHETHER
IT HAS STABILIZED, YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE
LOADING RATE DOESN'T EXCEED THIS FIFTY TO
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 288
FIFTY-FIVE METRIC TONS. YOU WOULD HAVE TO KEEP
THE LOADING RATE CONSTANT FROM YEAR TO YEAR, AND,
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO DO.
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE IT'S GOING TO
INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY?
A. I DON'T KNOW; I JUST DON'T KNOW.
Q. OKAY. I GUESS IT WAS OUR HOPE THAT IT WAS GOING
IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.
A. IT MAY HAVE STABILIZED, I JUST DON'T KNOW.
Q. HOW MUCH DATA WOULD YOU NEED BEFORE YOU COULD
DETERMINE IF IT WERE STABILIZED?
A. OH, WELL, I'M GOING TO RETIRE IN ABOUT TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS. SO, I THINK WE NEED ABOUT TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS WORTH OF DATA TO---
Q. SERIOUSLY, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THIS A
VERY SERIOUS CONCEPT, WHETHER IT IS IN EQUILIBRIUM
OR NOT, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE WE NEED
MORE DATA BEFORE WE MAKE THAT TYPE OF A
CONSIDERATION. SO, I'M ASKING YOU HOW MUCH DATA
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD NEED?
A. I THINK -- WELL, LET'S SAY HYPOTHETICALLY YOU
COULD LIMIT THE LOADING OF PHOSPHORUS TO THIS AREA
TO FIFTY METRIC TONS A YEAR FOR THE NEXT FIVE
YEARS AND MONITOR THESE PERMANENT LOCATIONS, AND I
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 289
THINK IF YOU DON'T SEE AN ADVANCE OF THE FRONT,
THAT WOULD BE SOME PRETTY STRONG EVIDENCE TO
SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT IT HAS STABILIZED.
Q. OKAY. NOW -- ALL RIGHT. LET'S ASSUME THAT WE
DON'T SEE THE FRONT ADVANCING, THINGS JUST STAY
STABLE. THEN WE START TO SEE SOME LITTLE CHANGES.
HOW DO WE DECIDE WHEN THE FRONT IS ADVANCING?
A. WELL, THAT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT YOU WOULD MEASURE,
SURFACE WATER, PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION, MIGHT BE
ONE THING. I THINK RON HERE HAS DONE THE ALKALINE
PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY AS A POTENTIAL INDICATOR. I
FIND THAT MACROPHYTES TAKE UP PHOSPHORUS PRETTY
DANG QUICKLY, AND I THINK IF YOU COULD MONITOR THE
PHOSPHORUS CONTENT OF THE VEGETATION AND SEE IF IT
STARTS TO INCREASE, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.
Q. PORE WATER, WOULD YOU MONITOR PORE WATER?
A. YOU COULD, BUT MY FEELING IS, IS I DON'T THINK IT
IS AS GOOD OF AN INDICATOR AS SOME OF THESE OTHER
THINGS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. YOU WOULD MONITOR SURFACE WATER FIRST.
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT FIRST, MAYBE ALTOGETHER.
Q. OKAY. YOU WOULD LOOK AT SURFACE WATER, YOU WOULD
LOOK AT PHOSPHORUS ACCUMULATION IN THE
MACROPHYTES, AND YOU WOULD LOOK AT ALKALINE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 290
PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY?
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE ALKALINE
PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY, BUT I HAVE HEARD ENOUGH TO
WHERE IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING TO USE AS A WAY TO
DETERMINE THE---
Q. OKAY. ARE YOU GOING TO DO ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE
ACTIVITY AT THE DOSING STUDY?
A. I DON'T KNOW, SINCE I'M NOT INVOLVED IN IT, AND
THAT'S -- THAT'S MORE A MICROBIOLOGIST'S
TECHNIQUE, AND I'M NOT A MICROBIOLOGIST, SO.
Q. AND WHEN YOU START TO -- LET'S JUST -- GOING BACK
TO MY HYPOTHETICAL -- WHEN YOU STARTED TO SEE
SHIFTS IN THE SURFACE WATER AND THE PHOSPHORUS
ACCUMULATION IN THE MACROPHYTES AND, LET'S SAY,
IF WE DID ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE, WE SAW
INCREASE/DECREASE -- WHATEVER -- HOW WOULD YOU
DETERMINE WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAD A FRONT SHIFTING
DOWNSTREAM?
A. WELL, I GUESS IF YOU SAW AN INCREASE IN THE
SURFACE WATER P AND THE UPTAKE BY THE MACROPHYTES,
THAT WOULD SUGGEST -- AND I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE
ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE ACTIVITY, SO.
Q. PUT THAT ASIDE, THAT'S OKAY. IF YOU SAW AN
INCREASE IN THE OTHERS THAT WOULD INDICATE THE
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 291
FRONT WAS MOVING?
A. AND YOU MAY HAVE TO ACTUALLY -- I MEAN, AS MUCH AS
IS AT STAKE AT THIS, YOU MAY HAVE TO SET UP A LOT
OF PERMANENT PLOTS AND TRY TO DO SOME STATISTICAL
ANALYSIS TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT IS A
STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE. AS YOU CAN
SEE, FIELD DATA HAS QUITE A BIT OF VARIABILITY.
Q. SO, YOU WOULD WANT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT
CHANGES IN THE READINGS?
A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD WANT -- THIS, AGAIN,
IS HYPOTHETICAL AND THIS MIGHT BE AN APPROPRIATE
WAY TO GO ABOUT IT. AND THERE ARE PROBABLY OTHER
PARAMETERS YOU CAN MEASURE---
Q. SURE.
A. ---BUT I'M -- AGAIN, I'M -- I DON'T KNOW, THIS
ISN'T MY LIVELIHOOD IN TERMS OF TRYING TO
DETERMINE THIS AREA.
Q. WHAT IS AT STAKE? YOU SAID, "CONSIDERING WHAT'S
AT STAKE HERE," WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE?
A. WELL, I JUST THINK THAT THE WHOLE IDEA OF TRYING
TO SETTLE THE ISSUE OF PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT OF
THE EVERGLADES, AND WHO PAYS. AND -- I MEAN, I
READ THE NEWSPAPERS, AND I KNOW THAT THEY WANT TO
SPEND FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 292
($400,000,000.00) TO BUILD THESE STORMWATER
TREATMENT AREAS, AND AS A TAXPAYER IN FLORIDA, I
WOULD -- YOU KNOW, THAT'S NO SMALL CHANGE, SO.
Q. HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT WHAT IT COST TO CLEANUP
SUPERFUND SITES?
A. WELL, I THINK THEY'VE GOT BILLIONS EARMARKED, I
KNOW THAT, SO.
Q. YEAH, I KNOW.
A. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH, BUT IT'S A LOT.
Q. YEAH, AND LANDFILL SITES, HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED AT
THE FIGURES FOR WHAT IT COSTS TO DO LANDFILL
SITES?
A. (NODS NEGATIVELY.)
Q. OKAY. WHEN YOU INDICATED THE EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT
EFFICIENCY FOR PHOSPHORUS, DOES THAT INDICATE THAT
YOU THINK THIS AREA IS IN EQUILIBRIUM, THE
UNENRICHED AREA, UP THROUGH THE ENRICHED?
A. I DON'T---
Q. I'M SORRY, STRIKE THE QUESTION, STRIKE THE
QUESTION. YOU INDICATED EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT FOR
THE ENRICHED AREA, DIDN'T YOU, EIGHTY-SEVEN
PERCENT EFFICIENCY?
A. RIGHT.
Q. DOES THAT INDICATE THAT IT'S IN EQUILIBRIUM?
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 293
A. I DON'T KNOW. I THINK I RECALL THAT THERE, SINCE
IT WAS LESS THAN A HUNDRED PERCENT, THAT IT WOULD
SUGGEST THAT MAYBE -- I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN IT'S
HARD TO SAY, EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT IS NOT TOO FAR
OFF OF ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. AND IN THIS KIND OF
WORK THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IT MAY BE WITHIN THE REALM
OF THE ERRORS.
Q. OKAY. IT COULD INDICATE THAT THE FRONT IS MOVING,
OR IT COULD INDICATE THAT IT'S STABLE?
A. I DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT SAYING -- TALKING ABOUT
THAT IN TERMS OF -- SINCE IT'S BASED ON TWO SOIL
CORES FROM THAT AREA. AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE THIS IS
A MORE IN-DEPTH TREATMENT OF THAT AREA.
Q. OKAY. HOW MANY CORES IS THIS BASED ON?
A. THIS IS BASED ON EIGHTEEN.
Q. AND THEN HOW MANY REPLICATES DID YOU TAKE?
A. WELL, ESSENTIALLY WE DIDN'T TAKE ANY REPLICATES,
EXCEPT FOR CESIUM ANALYSIS.
Q. OKAY. AND FOR THAT YOU TOOK VARYING NUMBERS?
A. WELL, AT LIKE FOUR LOCATIONS, WE -- WE NEVER TOOK
TRUE REPLICATES. WE WENT OUT AND RAN THE THREE
TRANSECTS AND TOOK THE CORES, AND WE DID THE
CESIUM PROFILES. AND WE FOUND AT SOME SITES THE
CESIUM PROFILES WERE NOT THAT GOOD. SO, WE WENT
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 294
BACK TO THOSE SITES A YEAR LATER AND TOOK SOME
ADDITIONAL CORES TO TRY TO SEE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER
THE NUMBERS JUST -- THE SITES HAD POOR CESIUM
PROFILES, OR JUST TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON IT.
BUT THOSE AREN'T TRUE REPLICATES, SINCE THEY'RE
COLLECTED A YEAR APART.
Q. OKAY. SO, YOU TOOK FOR THIS GRADIENT STUDY ONE
CORE PER SITE AT THE EIGHTEEN SITES?
A. RIGHT.
Q. OKAY. AND THEN FOR THE CESIUM, JUST -- I'M SORRY,
YOU KNOW, I LOSE IT SOMETIMES. YOU TOOK CESIUM AT
WHICH OF THESE SITES?
A. IT'S IN THE TEXT IN THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION, I
SAY THAT WE WENT BACK TO, I DON'T KNOW, I THINK C1
WAS ONE SITE AND MAYBE C5 WAS A SITE. IT SAYS
HERE -- WELL, TOO BAD, I DON'T HAVE PAGE NUMBERS.
IT'S THE FIRST PAGE OF THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION.
Q. OKAY.
A. BUT WE WENT BACK FOR CESIUM AT---
Q. WHERE ARE WE NOW---
A. THE VERY -- YEAH.
Q. ---I'M NOT WITH YOU.
A. GO THROUGH THE INTRO AND THE MATERIALS AND METHODS
TO THE RESULTS AND DISCUSSION.
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 295
Q. OKAY.
A. YOU'VE GOT SIX OR EIGHT PAGES TO GO THROUGH.
Q. OKAY.
MR. McCAUGHAN: THAT'S IT THERE.
Q. I'M AT IT, YEAH.
A. OKAY. AND IT'S IN THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH ABOUT
SEVEN LINES DOWN WHERE -- WELL, ACTUALLY, THE
SECOND -- THE THIRD SENTENCE. WE COLLECTED
ADDITIONAL CORES FROM 10A2, 10C1, AND 10C5 IN JUNE
1991 TO VERIFY THE LOCATION OF CESIUM PEAKS AT
THESE SITES. AND THEN IN THE NEXT SENTENCE, WE
BASICALLY TAKE THE AVERAGE OF THE TWO CORES, AND
THERE'S REALLY PRETTY GOOD AGREEMENT CONSIDERING
THEY'RE A YEAR APART.
Q. IS THERE A REASON YOU DIDN'T DO REPLICATES?
A. NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF. CESIUM -- THESE ARE
ALL -- YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, IT'S NOT -- WHEN
YOU TAKE ONE CORE, IT'S NOT ONE SAMPLE. YOU
HAVE TO SLICE IT INTO DEPTH INCREMENTS, AND SO
YOU END UP WITH, LIKE, FIFTEEN TO TWENTY TO
THIRTY SAMPLES FOR EACH CORE. SO, IN TERMS OF
NUMBERS OF SAMPLES, YOU KNOW, ONE CORE YIELDS,
YOU KNOW, TWENTY TO THIRTY SAMPLES. AND SO WHEN
YOU MULTIPLY THAT BY EIGHTEEN, YOU START GETTING
DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 296
UP THERE IN THE, YOU KNOW, THE HUNDREDS OF
SAMPLES, THREE HUNDRED SAMPLES AFTER NOT TOO
LONG.
Q. I HEAR YOU. ON THE SECOND PAGE, YOU TALK ABOUT --
THE BOTTOM OF THE FIRST FULL PARAGRAPH THAT YOU'VE
BEEN TALKING ABOUT -- THE PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT,
AND THEN YOU SAY, "CONCURRENT WITH THE ENRICHMENT
AND ENHANCED SURFACE FLOW HAVE BEEN A SHIFT IN
PLANT SPECIES COMPOSITION FROM A COMMUNITY
DOMINATED BY SAWGRASS AND SLOUGH SPECIES TO ONE
CONSISTING PRIMARILY OF CATTAIL."
A. ARE WE -- SECOND PAGE OF THE INTRODUCTION, IS THIS
RIGHT?
Q. YES, SIR.
A. OKAY, I SEE IT.
Q. OKAY. DO YOU AGREE WITH TH