STATE OF FLORIDA

DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF )

FLORIDA, a Florida Agricultural )

Cooperative Marketing Association,) CASE NOS. 92-3038

ROTH FARMS, INC., and ) 92-3039

WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., ) 92-3040

)

and )

)

FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; )

UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )

and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )

)

and )

FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ) DEPOSITION

ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, )

W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and ) OF

HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )

) CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT

Petitioners, )

)

vs. )

)

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )

DISTRICT, an Agency of the State )

of Florida, )

)

Respondent, )

)

and )

)

MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF )

FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF )

AMERICA, and FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF )

ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and the )

FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, )

)

Intervenors. )

___________________________________)

AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA

DECEMBER 7, 1992 - 9:00 A.M.

REPORTED BY: PAMELA S. LILES

CAROLYN Y. HALL & ASSOCIATES

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 107

APPEARANCES:

FOR THE PETITIONERS:

MR. RICK BURGESS MR. WILLIAM H. GREEN

PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK HOPPING, BOYD, GREEN & SAMS

ONE BISCAYNE TOWER 123 SOUTH CALHOUN STREET

SUITE 3636 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32314

MAIMI, FLORIDA 33131

TELEPHONE: (305) 358-3000 TELEPHONE: (904) 222-7500

FOR THE RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR:

MS. SUZAN HILL PONZOLI MR. PAUL L. NETTLETON

ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH &

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA KAUFMAN, LTD.

155 SOUTH MIAMI AVENUE 4100 ONE CENTRUST FINANCIAL

SUITE 627 CENTER

MIAMI, FLORIDA 33130 100 SE SECOND STREET

MIAMI, FLORIDA 33131

TELEPHONE: (305) 536-4425 TELEPHONE: (305) 530-0050

FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY:

MR. RALPH L. McCAUGHAN

KING, WALKER, LAMBE & CRABTREE

SUITE 100, 3708 MAYFAIR STREET

POST OFFICE BOX 51549

DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA 27717-1549

TELEPHONE: (919) 493-8411

ALSO PRESENT:

DR. CURTIS J. RICHARDSON

DUKE UNIVERSITY

MR. RONALD D. JONES, Ph.D.

FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY

MR. JIM GRIMSHAW, Ph.D.

SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT

MR. MARK D. MAFFEI, Ph.D.

U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE

MR. SAM ELSWICK

ASPEN SYSTEMS CORPORATION

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 108

T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S

E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X

DEPONENT - CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT - 12/7-8/92

EXAMINATION BY: PAGES

MS. PONZOLI 109-454

MR. NETTLETON 454-550

MR. BURGESS 550-554

MR. NETTLETON 554-555

MR. BURGESS 555-556

-------------------------------------------------------

E X H I B I T S I N D E X

NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED

(NO EXHIBITS WERE MARKED DURING

THE TAKING OF THE DEPOSITION OF

DR. CRAFT ON DECEMBER 7-8, 1992.)

-------------------------------------------------------

SIGNATURE PAGE FOR DEPONENT 557

CERTIFICATION OF COURT REPORTER 558

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 109

ON MOTION OF COUNSEL FOR THE

RESPONDENT-INTERVENOR, THE DEPOSITION OF DR.

CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT MAY BE TAKEN BEGINNING AT OR

AROUND 9:00 A.M. ON DECEMBER 7, 1992, AT THE HILTON

HOTEL, HILLSBOROUGH ROAD, THE WALKER SUITE, DURHAM,

NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE PAMELA S. LILES, A NOTARY

PUBLIC.

THE SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS TO THE TRANSCRIPT OF

HIS TESTIMONY IS HEREBY REQUIRED.

- - - - - - - - - - -

WHEREUPON,

CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT,

HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN,

WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED

AS FOLLOWS:

EXAMINATION BY MS. PONZOLI:

Q. SIR, WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD,

PLEASE?

A. CHRISTOPHER B. CRAFT.

Q. ALL RIGHT. DR. CRAFT, WE ACTUALLY BEGAN YOUR

DEPOSITION SOME WEEKS AGO WHERE WE RECEIVED YOUR

DOCUMENTS, AND THEN WE SAID THAT WE WOULD BE

RETURNING TODAY TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT

SOME OR ALL OF THOSE DOCUMENTS.

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 110

A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)

Q. I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND YOU OF SOME OF THE

INSTRUCTIONS WE GAVE YOU LAST TIME, THAT IF YOU

DON'T UNDERSTAND A QUESTION THAT I ASK -- AND

I'LL REMIND YOU THAT I AM NOT A SCIENTIST, I AM

A LAWYER -- THEN, PLEASE LET ME KNOW AND I WILL

TRY TO FASHION A BETTER AND MORE APPROPRIATE

QUESTION FOR YOU. OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE DEALING WITH

THIS MATERIAL ON DIFFERENT LEVELS SO WE HAVE TO DO

THE BEST WE CAN BETWEEN US.

I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN TODAY, DR. CRAFT,

QUESTIONING YOU ON DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NUMBER

FIVE -- CRAFT NUMBER FIVE, WHICH IS A COMPOSITE

EXHIBIT MAINLY INVOLVING A MANUSCRIPT ENTITLED,

"PEAT ACCRETION AND NITROGEN, PHOSPHORUS AND

ORGANIC CARBON ACCUMULATED IN NUTRIENT ENRICHED

AND UNENRICHED EVERGLADES PEATLANDS," AUTHORED BY

CRAFT AND RICHARDSON FROM THE DUKE UNIVERSITY

WETLAND CENTER. AND I THINK I'VE GIVEN YOU A COPY

OF YOUR EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE.

MS. PONZOLI: AND THERE ARE A FEW

EXTRA COPIES THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE

TABLE, I BELIEVE.

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) IF I UNDERSTAND THE COMPOSITE

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 111

EXHIBIT, THIS PUBLICATION HAS BEEN ACCEPTED IN

ECOLOGICAL APPLICATIONS, IS THAT ACCURATE?

A. THAT'S CORRECT.

Q. AND IT WILL BE COMING OUT IN PRINT, WHEN?

A. SOMETIME IN 1993.

Q. OKAY. I GUESS WE CAN BEGIN FIRST, DR. CRAFT, WITH

THE LETTER THAT YOU FORWARDED TO DR. GORHAM

REGARDING THE PUBLICATION. I JUST HAVE A COUPLE

OF QUESTIONS ON THAT LETTER.

A. OKAY.

Q. YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE ADDRESSED REVIEWER

COMMENTS IN SEVERAL FASHIONS. AND, AS I RECALL,

YOU HAD DISCARDED THOSE REVIEWER COMMENTS PRIOR

TO OUR REQUESTING YOUR DOCUMENTS. IS THAT

CORRECT?

A. RIGHT.

Q. OKAY. WHAT WERE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE REVIEWER

COMMENTS?

A. BASICALLY -- ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THIS LETTER

DATED SEPTEMBER 9TH, HERE?

Q. NO. I'M REALLY TALKING MORE GLOBALLY AS TO ALL

REVIEWER COMMENTS THAT YOU RECEIVED AT THAT TIME.

HOW MANY ITERATIONS DID YOU GO THROUGH -- LET ME

ASK YOU -- STRIKE THAT QUESTION, AND LET ME ASK

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 112

YOU A SECOND QUESTION. HOW MANY ITERATIONS OF

THIS MANUSCRIPT DID YOU GO THROUGH BEFORE IT WAS

ACCEPTED?

A. OKAY. YOU MEAN BY "ITERATIONS" WITH THE JOURNAL

REVIEWERS, OR DO YOU MEAN---

Q. YES, SIR. WITH THE JOURNAL REVIEWER.

A. I THINK IT WAS TWO, MAYBE THREE.

Q. ALL RIGHT. IN YOUR FIRST ROUND OF COMMENTS, DO

YOU REMEMBER WHAT THOSE WERE?

A. SOME OF THEM. THE CESIUM DATA WAS NOT PRESENTED

IN A GRAPHICAL FORMAT, AND SO WE WENT BACK AND

PRESENTED SOME OF IT AS GRAPHS.

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

A. WE DIDN'T INCLUDE ANY DATA ON ORGANIC CARBON

ACCUMULATION, AND SO WE ADDED THAT TO IT. THOSE

ARE ABOUT THE TWO MAIN THINGS. I REALLY CAN'T

THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE. THOSE WERE THE TWO BIG

THINGS.

Q. DID YOU HAVE THREE REVIEWERS?

A. I THINK SO.

Q. IS THAT CUSTOMARY THAT THERE WOULD BE THREE?

A. SOMETIMES IT'S TWO, SOMETIMES IT'S THREE,

OCCASIONALLY IT'S FOUR.

Q. OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHO ANY OF YOUR REVIEWERS

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 113

WERE?

A. NO. THEY MAKE THAT ANONYMOUS USUALLY. THAT'S

SORT OF STANDARD PRACTICE.

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU ADDED THE CESIUM DATA GRAPHICALLY

AND THE ORGANIC CARBON, AND THEN YOU WENT THROUGH

ANOTHER ITERATION. DO YOU RECALL WHY YOU WENT

THROUGH THE SECOND ITERATION?

A. JUST TO, YOU KNOW, IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF THE

MANUSCRIPT. AND, BASICALLY, THAT'S I THINK WHAT

THIS SEPTEMBER 9TH LETTER ADDRESSES: SHORTENING

THE TITLE; MAKING IT MORE INFORMATIVE; REDUCING

THE LENGTH OF THE ABSTRACT; TRYING TO RELATE TO

CESIUM INVENTORIES IN THE SOIL TO WHAT THE

DEPOSITION RATE FROM THE ATMOSPHERE IS.

Q. ALL RIGHT. THERE'S A QUESTION IN NUMBER FOUR

REGARDING THE ORIGINALITY OF THE RESEARCH. WHAT

WAS THAT ISSUE?

A. BASICALLY, I CITED SOME OF THE WORK OF DR. REDDY

IN THE MANUSCRIPT AND THEIR CONCERN WAS THAT,

WELL, IF THIS WORK HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE, WHY

SHOULD WE PUBLISH IT. AND I THINK I ADDRESSED

THAT IN THE LETTER AS OUR WORK STARTED EARLIER

THAN HIS -- ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THAT

MATTERS; I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHO GET IT OUT

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 114

FIRST -- AND THE SCOPE OF OUR WORK IN TERMS OF

THE GEOGRAPHICAL AREA COVERED WAS MUCH LARGER THAN

WHAT DR. REDDY COVERED.

Q. OKAY. YOU SEEM TO EXPRESS SOME CONCERN BETWEEN

THE LAG OF SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION. DO YOU

RECALL WHAT THAT LAG WAS?

A. IN TERMS OF THE TIME INTERVAL?

Q. SURE.

A. I DON'T KNOW. IT SEEMS LIKE FOUR OR FIVE MONTHS.

I MEAN, IT -- GENERALLY, I THINK IT MAY HAVE EVEN

BEEN FIVE OR SIX MONTHS. THEY GENERALLY TRY TO

TURN IT AROUND TO YOU IN A THREE OR FOUR MONTH

PERIOD.

Q. OKAY. YOU SAY IN YOUR POSTSCRIPT "THAT NET

PRIMARY PRODUCTION OF EVERGLADES MACROPHYTES

PROBABLY IS SUBSTANTIALLY HIGHER THAN VEGETATION

OF NORTHERN PEATLANDS."

MR. BURGESS: I'M SORRY, IS THERE A

PAGE NUMBER?

MS. PONZOLI: IT'S THE POSTSCRIPT.

IT'S THE SECOND PAGE OF THE LETTER, I

ASSUME. I MEAN, I HAVE A---

MR. BURGESS: OKAY.

MS. PONZOLI: ---PAGE THAT SAYS P.S.

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 115

IS THAT ACCURATE?

WITNESS: YES.

MR. BURGESS: (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU RECALL -- WAS THIS

POSTSCRIPT ATTACHED TO THE LETTER?

A. OH, YES.

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THE "NET PRIMARY" -- WHY IS

THIS SO, DR. CRAFT?

A. WELL, YOU JUST -- YOU HAVE A LONGER GROWING SEASON

IN SUBTROPICAL AREAS, SO YOU TEND TO HAVE HIGHER

PRODUCTIVITY. AND A LOT OF ECOSYSTEMS IS SHOWN TO

HAVE A LATITUDINAL COMPONENT. IT'S HIGHER AS YOU

MOVE TOWARDS THE TROPICS.

Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NET PRIMARY

PRODUCTIVITY IN THE EVERGLADES IS THE SAME

THROUGHOUT THE EVERGLADES?

A. NO. IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE COMMUNITY -- YOU KNOW,

ON THE TYPE OF PLANT COMMUNITY.

Q. CAN YOU JUST GENERALLY TELL ME WHERE YOU THINK IT

WOULD BE HIGHER?

A. WELL, I WOULD THINK THAT PROBABLY THE EMERGENT

MARSHES HAVE A HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY THAN TREE

ISLANDS, AND CERTAIN EMERGENT PLANTS SPECIES ARE

MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN OTHERS.

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 116

Q. CATTAILS BEING MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN SAWGRASS?

A. THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT. NOT MY DATA, BUT, YOU

KNOW, WHAT THE LITERATURE SEEMS TO SUGGEST.

Q. DO YOU THINK THAT'S ACCURATE?

A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I HAVEN'T, YOU KNOW,

MEASURED IT, AT LEAST IN THAT CONTEXT.

Q. DO YOU THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT TO

UNDERSTAND?

A. I THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHETHER

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN PRODUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE

TWO SPECIES, YEAH.

Q. OKAY. ARE YOU DESIGNING ANY STUDIES, OR ARE ANY

OF YOUR STUDIES ADDRESSING THAT ISSUE?

A. NOT DIRECTLY.

Q. HOW ARE THEY ADDRESSING IT INDIRECTLY?

A. THE FERTILIZER STUDY IS ADDRESSING THE EFFECTS

OF N AND P ADDITIONS ON GROWTH OF EVERGLADES

VEGETATION, AND ALTHOUGH IN SOME WAYS THE MAIN

FOCUS WAS TO TRY TO DETERMINE IF FERTILIZER

ADDITIONS CAUSED THE CHANGE IN THE SPECIES

COMPOSITION.

Q. SO, IT WASN'T REALLY LOOKING AT NET PRIMARY

PRODUCTIVITY REALLY?

A. NO -- WELL, INDIRECTLY, IT IS LOOKING AT THAT

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 117

BECAUSE WE ARE INTERESTED IN THE FERTILIZER

RESPONSE -- THE RESPONSE TO FERTILIZER ADDITIONS,

AND ONE OF THOSE MIGHT BE A CHANGE IN

PRODUCTIVITY.

Q. OKAY. YOU SORT OF IMPLIED THAT YOU MIGHT QUESTION

THE LITERATURE ON WHETHER CATTAIL HAD A HIGHER NET

PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY THAN SAWGRASS. IS THERE A

REASON?

A. NO, I'M NOT QUESTIONING IT---

Q. OKAY.

A. ---I JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT IT

IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, SINCE I HAVE NOT DONE ANY

WORK DIRECTLY RELATED TO THAT.

Q. BUT YOU DO THROUGHOUT YOUR PAPER ACCEPT THE WORK

OF OTHERS, AND APPEAR AT LEAST -- AND I BELIEVE

IT'S PROBABLY ACCURATE -- THAT YOU CONCUR WITH A

LOT OF THAT. DO YOU HAVE REASON TO DOUBT THE NET

PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY OF CATTAIL IS GREATER?

A. NO, NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY.

Q. OKAY. OKAY.

A. AND, IF I RECALL, I THINK STEVE DAVIS DID FIND

CATTAIL WAS MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN SAWGRASS IN THOSE

ENRICHED AREAS.

Q. OKAY. I THINK I'M JUST GOING TO BEGIN WITH THE

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 118

ABSTRACT, DR. CRAFT, AND WORK MY WAY THROUGH IT,

BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LOT OF CONCEPTS HERE I WOULD

LIKE TO UNDERSTAND BETTER. YOU SAY THAT THESE

VARIOUS PARAMETERS WERE MEASURED IN EVERGLADE

SOILS TO CHARACTERIZE THE EFFECTS OF ALTERED

HYDROPERIOD AND NUTRIENT REGIMES ON THE NUTRIENT

STORAGE CAPACITY OF THE EVERGLADES ECOSYSTEM.

AND I THINK A NUMBER OF EITHER THE CHAPTERS OF THE

ANNUAL REPORTS OF THE DUKE WETLAND CENTER, OR THIS

PAPER, AND EVEN I THINK YOUR CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER

SIXTEEN, WHICH IS A DRAFT MANUSCRIPT THAT I

UNDERSTAND IT HAS NOT BEEN SUBMITTED FOR

PUBLICATION YET, AND LOOKS AT A EUTROPHICATION

GRADIENT IN THE NORTHERN EVERGLADES, ARE LOOKING

AT THE CONCEPT OF NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY.

AND I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHY? WHY ARE

YOU LOOKING AT THIS NUTRIENT STORAGE CAPACITY?

A. WELL, THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS. ONE IS,

WETLANDS, FIRST, ARE GENERALLY SINKS FOR

NUTRIENTS. AND THAT'S BECAUSE THEY TEND TO OCCUPY

THE LOWEST PART OF THE LANDSCAPE. THEY'RE IN THE

DEPTH -- THEY'RE IN THE AREAS THAT TEND TO RECEIVE

STUFF. ONE THING THAT WE ARE INTERESTED IN IS

CARBON ACCUMULATION. WETLANDS ARE POTENTIALLY

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 119

IMPORTANT SINKS IN THE GLOBAL CARBON CYCLE, AND

PERHAPS YOU MAY SEE CHANGES IN CARBON STORAGE IN

RESPONSE TO NUTRIENT AND HYDROPERIOD ALTERATIONS

WHICH COULD HAVE A BIG IMPACT ON GLOBAL WARMING

AND THAT SORT OF THING.

THE OTHER POTENTIAL THING, WHICH IS PROBABLY

MORE OBVIOUS, IS THIS PROBLEM OF PHOSPHORUS AND

WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT IN THE EVERGLADES.

Q. OKAY. IS -- I -- AND, NOW, I'M NOT TRYING TO BE

STUPID HERE, BUT I THINK I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH

THIS -- WITH UNDERSTANDING WHY THE FOCUS IS ON

STORAGE CAPACITY.

A. BECAUSE -- OKAY. NUTRIENT STORAGE IS AN IMPORTANT

ECOSYSTEM PROCESS. AND ANY KIND OF CHANGE IN

NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION RATES COULD POTENTIALLY

CHANGE THE ECOSYSTEM. SO, I MEAN, THIS IS JUST

SORT OF A BASIC PROCESS THAT IS SUBJECT TO BEING

CHANGED FROM ALTERATION BY HUMANS, AND IT'S

IMPORTANT TO DETERMINE IF THIS IS A -- YOU KNOW,

HOW IT CHANGES -- IF IT DOES CHANGE -- AND IF SO,

HOW.

Q. OKAY. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH PHOSPHORUS IN THE

EVERGLADES?

A. IT SEEMS TO BE -- IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY A LOT

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 120

OF PEOPLE THAT PHOSPHORUS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR

CHANGES IN EVERYTHING FROM THE PLANT COMMUNITIES,

TO THE PERIPHYTON COMMUNITY, TO -- I MEAN,

EVERYTHING FROM PRODUCTIVITY TO CHANGES IN SPECIES

COMPOSITION; POTENTIAL CHANGES IN THE FOOD WEB;

AND WHAT WE WERE INTERESTED IN HERE IS LOOKING AT

HOW ENRICHMENT AFFECTS -- WHEN YOU START TALKING

ABOUT CHANGES IN COMMUNITIES AND TROPHIC GROUPS,

THAT'S SORT OF AT THE COMMUNITY LEVEL, AT THE

ORGANISM LEVEL. WE WERE INTERESTED IN SOME OF

THESE HIGHER ORDER PROCESSES, THESE ECOSYSTEM

PROCESSES, LIKE HOW PEAT BUILDS UP AND HOW

NUTRIENTS ARE SEQUESTERED.

Q. DO YOU -- DOES YOUR RESEARCH IN THE EVERGLADES

SUPPORT THE CONCEPT THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN

ALTERED BY THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT?

A. I THINK THAT THE FERTILIZER STUDY, THE FIRST YEAR

DATA DOES SUGGEST THAT THERE ARE SOME CHANGES THAT

OCCUR IN RESPONSE TO FERTILIZER ADDITIONS.

Q. DO YOU FIND THEM IN THE PERIPHYTON?

A. WELL, DR. VYMAZAL DID THAT WORK, AND I THINK HE

DID NOTE SOME CHANGES, BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE I

KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THAT TO REALLY -- I'M NOT A

PERIPHYTON PERSON, SO I DON'T REALLY FEEL LIKE I'M

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 121

QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT THOSE CHANGES.

Q. YOU ARE TAKING OVER THE PERIPHYTON WORK AT THE

DOSING STUDY, ARE YOU NOT?

A. NO.

Q. THAT'S DR. RADER, I'M SORRY. EXCUSE ME---

A. RIGHT.

Q. ---IT'S DR. RADER WHO'S DOING THAT.

A. YEAH.

Q. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT CHANGES IN THE COMMUNITIES OF

MACROPHYTES?

A. I FEEL LIKE I KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

THAT'S WHAT I'M LOOKING AT.

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU FOUND CHANGES IN THE

MACROPHYTE COMMUNITIES AS A RESULT OF NUTRIENT

ENRICHMENT?

A. SOME CHANGES, YES.

Q. WHAT ARE THEY?

A. WE SEE AN INCREASE IN PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE BY MOST OF

THE MACROPHYTES THAT WE LOOKED AT.

Q. AND?

A. AND WE SAW A DECREASE IN -- A DECLINE IN THE

STANDING CROP BIOMASS OF THIS UTRICULARIA-

PERIPHYTON COMPLEX.

Q. AND?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 122

A. THOSE WERE THE TWO THINGS THAT WE HAVE SEEN THUS

FAR.

Q. AND YOU COULD MAKE NO OTHER CONCLUSIONS REGARDING

THE COMMUNITY CHANGES RELATED TO, LET'S SAY, THE

CATTAIL OR THE DENSE MACROPHYTE ENCROACHMENT?

A. AFTER ONE YEAR, WE DIDN'T SEE THAT YET, YOU KNOW,

WE DIDN'T SEE IT, SO.

Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU HAVE BEEN DOING RESEARCH IN

THE EVERGLADES FOR THREE YEARS?

A. THREE AND A HALF.

Q. THREE AND A HALF YEARS?

A. YES.

Q. SO, BASED ON THREE AND A HALF YEARS WORK IN THE

EVERGLADES, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD MAKE

SOME OF THOSE CONCLUSIONS REGARDING CHANGES IN THE

MACROPHYTE COMMUNITIES?

A. WELL, WITH REFERENCE TO THE TWO THINGS I JUST

MENTIONED, I THINK, YEAH, THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT

THERE IS AN INCREASE IN PHOSPHORUS UPTAKE BY

MACROPHYTES, AND THERE IS A DECREASE IN THIS

STANDING CROP BIOMASS OF THE

UTRICULARIA-PERIPHYTON.

Q. AND AFTER THREE AND A HALF YEARS OF RESEARCH IN

THE EVERGLADES, THAT'S THE SUM TOTAL OF THE

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 123

MACROPHYTE CHANGES THAT YOU---

A. AT THIS POINT---

Q. OKAY.

A. ---BECAUSE THERE IS A TIME LAG FROM WHEN YOU

COLLECT THE DATA TO WHEN YOU FINALLY GET IT

ANALYZED AND START LOOKING AT IT STATISTICALLY.

Q. HAVE YOU COLLECTED DATA FROM WHICH YOU COULD

POTENTIALLY DRAW---

A. YES---

Q. ---CONCLUSIONS?

A. ---WELL, NO. I HAVE COLLECTED DATA, BUT I

DON'T -- I'M NOT ABLE TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS YET

BECAUSE WE ARE STILL IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO

ANALYZE THE DATA, LOOK AT THE NUMBERS.

Q. WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU WILL HAVE THAT ANALYSIS

DONE?

A. IT WILL BE IN -- TWO YEARS OF FERTILIZER DATA WILL

BE IN NEXT YEAR'S ANNUAL REPORT.

Q. SO, BY THE END OF THIS SUMMER, NEXT FALL, YOU

WOULD HAVE TWO YEARS---

A. UH-HUH. I WOULD HAVE TWO YEARS INTERPRETED AND

WRITTEN UP.

Q. WHEN WOULD YOU HAVE IT INTERPRETED, BUT NOT

WRITTEN UP?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 124

A. PROBABLY ABOUT IN MAY OR JUNE.

Q. OKAY.

A. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS KIND OF AN

ITERATIVE ONGOING THING. YOU CAN GO OUT IN ONE

WEEK AND COLLECT ENOUGH DATA TO SPEND A YEAR IN

THE LAB TRYING TO ANALYZE.

Q. OKAY. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE THAT MUCH DATA

COLLECTED?

A. I WENT OUT IN A WEEK THIS SUMMER AND I'VE GOT

ABOUT A YEAR'S WORTH OF DATA TO TRY TO PUT

TOGETHER.

Q. OKAY. AND ARE YOU TRYING TO PUT THEM TOGETHER TO

DO THAT TYPE OF ANALYSIS OF MACROPHYTE COMMUNITY

CHANGES?

A. SURE.

Q. OKAY. HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE ECOLOGICAL

EFFECTS OF THE CHANGES THAT YOU HAVE SEEN?

A. MAYBE YOU COULD REPHRASE THE QUESTION; I DON'T

QUITE UNDERSTAND IT.

Q. WELL, HAVE YOU SEEN ECOLOGICAL CHANGES DUE TO

NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT?

A. IN THESE FERTILIZER PLOTS, YES.

Q. ONLY IN THE FERTILIZER PLOTS?

A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE IN THE FIELD IF YOU CAN

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 125

RELATE -- YOU HAVE TO START AT TIME ZERO AND LOOK

AND SEE HOW THINGS CHANGE. I CAN GO OUT THERE

TODAY AND SAY, YEAH, THERE'S CATTAIL EVERYWHERE.

BUT SINCE I WASN'T THERE TEN YEARS AGO, I DON'T

KNOW -- YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW THINGS

CHANGE OVER TIME AND THAT'S WHY I THINK THE

FERTILIZER STUDY WILL BE USEFUL SINCE WE STARTED

AT TIME ZERO AND CAN FOLLOW THIS OVER A TWO,

THREE, FOUR, OR FIVE YEAR PERIOD.

Q. HAVE YOU MADE ANY EFFORT TO RELATE PHOSPHORUS

ENRICHMENT TO THE CATTAIL AREA?

A. MAYBE REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

Q. WELL, YOU'VE DONE STUDIES ALONG A NUTRIENT

GRADIENT, IS THAT RIGHT---

A. RIGHT.

Q. ---IN 2B?

A. RIGHT.

Q. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE TAKEN PHOSPHORUS LEVELS

ALONG THAT NUTRIENT GRADIENT. IS THAT RIGHT?

A. CORRECT.

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY RELATIONSHIP OF THE

PHOSPHORUS LEVELS YOU FOUND IN THE PORE WATER AND

THE SURFACE WATER WITH THE PLANT COMMUNITIES THAT

YOU SAW ALONG THE NUTRIENT GRADIENT?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 126

A. NO. I DON'T THINK I'VE DONE ANYTHING LIKE

THAT.

Q. OKAY. WHY NOT?

A. I JUST DON'T -- I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED INTO THAT

SORT OF THING.

Q. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE A VALID FORM OF

ANALYSIS?

A. WELL, I'M NOT QUITE SURE I UNDERSTAND THE

QUESTION, SO MAYBE LET'S BACK UP AND---

Q. OKAY. WELL---

A. ---MAKE IT CLEARER TO ME.

Q. SURE. SURE. AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND I'M A

LAYMAN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THIS FROM A LAYMAN'S

PERSPECTIVE. YOU HAVE ENRICHED AREAS THAT YOU

TALK ABOUT ALONG THE NUTRIENT AND GRADIENT MOVING

INTO WHAT YOU CALL UNENRICHED AREAS---

A. OKAY.

Q. ---IS THAT RIGHT?

A. YES.

Q. AND YOU HAVE TAKEN MEASUREMENTS ALL ALONG THAT

GRADIENT. IS THAT TRUE?

A. YES.

Q. AND HAVE YOU DONE VEGETATIVE COUNTS ALONG THAT

GRADIENT?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 127

A. YES.

Q. HAVE YOU TRIED TO RELATE TO SEE IF THERE IS SOME

RELATIONSHIP THAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU IN WHAT

YOU'RE SEEING?

A. YOU MEAN IN TERMS OF, AS YOU WOULD SAY, TRY TO

RELATE PORE WATER CONCENTRATIONS TO WHAT'S GOING

ON WITH THE MACROPHYTES?

Q. THAT'S RIGHT.

A. WE HAVEN'T DONE THAT. AND MY WORK IS RELATED TO

THE MACROPHYTES. DR. QUALLS HAS DONE THE PORE

WATER WORK. AND AT THIS POINT WE JUST HAVEN'T

PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER TO TRY TO, YOU KNOW,

COMBINE THE DATA AND LOOK AT THOSE SORTS OF

THINGS.

Q. IS THERE ANY REASON WHY?

A. WE JUST HAVEN'T HAD THE TIME. WE'VE TALKED

ABOUT -- THERE HAS BEEN TALK OF TRYING TO SORT

OF SYNTHESIZE AND BRING EVERYTHING TOGETHER,

BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND EACH OF US, WE WORK

SEMI-INDEPENDENTLY, IN TERMS OF EACH OF US TAKES

THE LEAD IN A CERTAIN FACET OF THE STUDY. AND,

SO, MY FOCUS IS ON MACROPHYTES AND ON PEAT

BUILDUP. DR. QUALLS HAS FOCUSED MORE ON THE WATER

QUALITY WORK, AND THE PORE WATERS, AND THOSE KIND

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 128

OF THINGS.

Q. SO, THE ONLY SYNTHESIZER, THEN, IS DR. RICHARDSON,

IS THAT ACCURATE?

A. WELL, I'D SAY HE CERTAINLY DOES MORE SYNTHESIZING

THAN WE DO, IN TERMS OF BRINGING ALL THE PIECES

TOGETHER, YES.

Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU EVER SIT AROUND, ALL OF YOU,

AND TALK ABOUT SYNTHESIZING YOUR VARIOUS STUDIES?

A. WE -- YEAH, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT. THERE IS THE

TIME CONSTRAINT PROBLEM THAT SEEMS TO BE THE

BIGGEST THING.

Q. AND HAVE YOU EVER HAD DISCUSSIONS REGARDING

SYNTHESIZING DR. QUALLS' WORK WITH YOUR WORK, WITH

DR. RADER'S WORK, WITH DR. VYMAZAL'S WORK?

A. YEAH, WE'VE JUST MENTIONED THAT WE NEED TO TRY TO

DO THAT.

Q. BUT YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT?

A. NO, NOT REALLY.

Q. OKAY. IS THIS CONCEPT OF NUTRIENT STORAGE

CAPACITY, IS THIS A MANAGEMENT CONCEPT?

A. IT HAS MANAGEMENT APPLICATIONS, YES.

Q. OKAY. HOW SO?

A. WELL, PEOPLE USE WETLANDS -- OR ARE USING THEM IN

A LOT OF PLACES, TO TRY AND IMPROVE WATER QUALITY.

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 129

AND INFORMATION LIKE THIS CAN BE USED, PERHAPS, TO

TRY TO DETERMINE HOW THESE SYSTEMS MIGHT WORK, TO

PROVIDE BACKGROUND INFORMATION TO DETERMINE, YOU

KNOW, HOW THESE SYSTEMS MIGHT WORK IN TERMS OF

PEAT BUILDUP, OR SOIL ADSORPTION, OR SOMETHING

LIKE THAT.

Q. WELL, IN LOOKING AT YOUR WORK IN THE WATER

CONSERVATION AREAS, AND IN THE EVERGLADES, ARE YOU

LOOKING AT MANAGING THESE AREAS TOWARD THE GOAL OF

IMPROVING WATER QUALITY FOR THE EVERGLADES

NATIONAL PARK, FOR EXAMPLE?

A. THAT WASN'T REALLY A GOAL IN THE PAPER, BUT IT

COULD BE POTENTIALLY USED FOR SOMETHING LIKE

THAT.

Q. WERE YOU LOOKING AT EXAMINING THESE WETLAND

SYSTEMS TOWARD IMPROVING WATER QUALITY FOR THE

SYSTEMS THEMSELVES?

A. FOR MAYBE THE CONSERVATION AREAS.

Q. YOU WERE LOOKING AT WHAT THE NUTRIENT STORAGE

CAPACITY WAS SO THAT YOU COULD IMPROVE THE WATER

QUALITY FOR THE WATER CONSERVATION AREA

THEMSELVES?

A. IT COULD BE USED FOR THAT.

Q. OKAY. HOW?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 130

A. BY DETERMINING HOW THESE THINGS RESPOND TO

NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT. IF YOU DO SEE AN INCREASE IN

NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO RELATE

THINGS LIKE LOADING TO STORAGE AND THAT SORT OF

THING.

Q. SO, IF YOU REDUCE LOADING TO "X" POINT, THEN THE

STORAGE WOULD MAINTAIN A CERTAIN EQUILIBRIUM, IS

THAT AN ACCURATE STATEMENT? NO?

A. I DON'T THINK SO, BUT I'M NOT QUITE SURE---

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HOW WOULD YOU -- HOW WOULD YOU

USE THE INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE GATHERING TO HELP

THE WATER CONSERVATION AREAS THEMSELVES IN WATER

QUALITY?

MR. BURGESS: THIS IS -- YOU'RE

ASKING A HYPOTHETICAL?

Q. (BY MS. PONZOLI) DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION,

DR. RADER?

A. DR. CRAFT.

Q. DR. CRAFT, I APOLOGIZE.

A. THAT'S OKAY.

WITNESS: REPEAT THE QUESTION ONE

MORE TIME.

MR. PONZOLI: OKAY. READ IT BACK

PLEASE.

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 131

(THEREUPON, THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWER

APPEARING ON PAGE 130, LINES 7-14,

WERE REPEATED BY THE COURT REPORTER.)

A. OKAY. I THINK YOU COULD USE IT -- WELL, I'M

AWARE, AS LONG -- AS MOST EVERYBODY ELSE IN SOUTH

FLORIDA, THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT

DISTRICT IS THINKING ABOUT, OR TRYING TO DESIGN

THESE CONSTRUCTED WETLANDS TO FILTER PHOSPHORUS.

AND I THINK OUR WORK HAS DIRECT APPLICATIONS IN

HELPING DESIGN THOSE---

Q. OKAY. IS---

A. ---IN TERMS OF SUPPLYING INFORMATION ON THAT.

Q. FINE. THEN, IS THAT, IN FACT, THE GOAL OF A LOT

OF THIS WORK IS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DESIGN

CLEANUP AREAS FOR THE WATER?

A. NO, IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT THE PRIMARY GOAL. THE

PRIMARY GOAL IS TO UNDERSTAND HOW, INITIALLY, THE

ECOSYSTEM PROCESSES, SUCH AS, PEAT ACCRETION AND

NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION ARE AFFECTED BY THE

ENRICHMENT PROCESS. AND THEN, OF COURSE, THIS

HAS A, YOU KNOW, AN APPLICATION TO DESIGNING THESE

TYPE OF AREAS.

Q. DO YOU THINK THAT WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A CAN

BE USED AS A MODEL FOR HOW A MARSH CAN REMOVE AND

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 132

STORE PHOSPHORUS?

A. I THINK IF YOU'RE GOING TO CONSTRUCT A MARSH TO

REMOVE PHOSPHORUS BY PEAT ACCUMULATION, IT CAN BE

USED, IF PEAT ACCRETION IS THE PRIMARY MECHANISM

BY WHICH PHOSPHORUS IS STORED.

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT THERE

ARE OTHER PARAMETERS THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE

CONSIDERED?

A. OH, CERTAINLY.

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE THEY?

A. I THINK -- LET'S SAY YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO UTILIZE

PEAT ACCRETION AS YOUR MECHANISM; YOU KNOW,

THERE'S CHEMICAL PROCESSES, SUCH AS, SORPTION,

PRECIPITATION WITH IRON AND ALUMINUM AND CALCIUM

THAT YOU COULD USE OR COULD UNDERSTAND TO HELP IN

TERMS OF DESIGNING THESE AREAS. IT SORT OF

DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU WANT TO GO WITH A PEAT

BASED WETLAND FOR PHOSPHORUS REMOVAL OR WHETHER

YOU WANT TO USE SOME KIND OF MINERAL SOIL WETLAND,

AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE OTHER PROCESSES WHICH

WOULD BE EVEN IMPORTANT IN DETERMINING HOW MUCH

PHOSPHORUS CAN BE REMOVED.

Q. DR. CRAFT, YOU JUST LOST ME. HOW WOULD WE BUILD

MINERAL SOIL WETLANDS IN FLORIDA?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 133

A. WELL, YOU HAVE TO START WITH MINERAL SOIL. SO,

YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT---

Q. THAT'S WHERE I'M HAVING MY PROBLEM.

A. WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU GET UP INTO CENTRAL FLORIDA,

OR YOU GO RIGHT NORTH -- AT LEAST IF I LOOK AT

SOIL MAPS OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE, YOU GET INTO THESE

SANDY-TYPE SOILS, YOU KNOW, AND YOU COULD BUILD A

WETLAND THERE. I THINK -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A

LOT -- NOT ALL WETLANDS ARE PEAT BASED, YOU KNOW.

MANY OF THE BIG ONES ARE, BUT---

Q. YOU'RE LOSING ME. WOULD WE SEND THE WATER NORTH,

CLEAN IT UP, AND THEN SOMEHOW BRING IT SOUTH BY

THE---

A. WELL, NO. ALL I'M SAYING IS, IS I DON'T KNOW

ENOUGH ABOUT THE DESIGN OF THESE THINGS TO

DETERMINE WHAT -- EXACTLY HOW THE PHOSPHORUS IS

GOING TO BE REMOVED. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE

GOING TO RELY ON PEAT BUILDUP, OR WHETHER

THEY'RE GOING TO RELY ON PRECIPITATION WITH

CALCIUM AND IRON OR ALUMINUM. SO, I'M SORT OF

LIMITED BY -- THEY MAY RELY ON A COMBINATION OF

BOTH. I DON'T KNOW.

Q. YOU HAVE FOUND, AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR PAPER, THAT

THERE ARE CHANGES IN PEAT ACCRETION DUE TO

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 134

PHOSPHORUS ENRICHMENT, RIGHT?

A. I THINK SO, YES.

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT.

A. THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT.

Q. OKAY. AND THEN, JUST BASICALLY, WHAT ARE THESE

CHANGES?

A. ENRICHMENT SEEMS TO ENHANCE THE RATE OF PEAT

BUILDUP.

Q. SEPARATELY AND APART FROM HYDROPERIOD?

A. WELL, WE CAN'T -- I REALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT,

BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE THE TWO. THE

PROBLEM WITH CONSERVATION AREA 2A IS THERE'S A LOT

OF PHOSPHORUS COMING IN, AND THERE'S A LOT OF

NITROGEN, TOO, BUT THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF WATER

THAT CARRIES ALL THAT IN. AND MY FEELING IS, IS

YOU'D REALLY NEED TO DO SOME KIND OF CONTROLLED

STUDIES WHERE YOU COULD SEPARATE THOSE TWO THINGS

OUT TO DETERMINE THE RELATIVE ROLE OF NUTRIENTS

VERSUS HYDROPERIOD.

Q. UNLESS I'VE MISSED SOMETHING, I DON'T THINK THAT

RESEARCH IS BEING DONE, IS IT?

A. YEAH, I'M NOT AWARE OF IT.

Q. OKAY. SO, NO ONE FROM DUKE WETLAND CENTER, TO

YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS DOING THAT SEPARATING OUT?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 135

A. NO.

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. YOU TALK HERE ABOUT PEAT

ACCRETION IS RELATED TO HYDROPERIOD AND TO

PHOSPHORUS LOADING. AND YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT

YOU DON'T THINK THEY CAN BE SEPARATED OUT AT THIS

POINT, IS THAT ACCURATE?

A. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THE HYDROPERIOD -- GOOD

ENOUGH HYPROPERIOD DATA TO SEPARATE IT OUT. YOU

KNOW, I DON'T -- I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A FAIR

STATEMENT. IT'S -- I DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT; I

DON'T THINK I COULD SEPARATE IT OUT.

Q. OKAY. WHAT KIND OF HYDROPERIOD DATA WOULD YOU

NEED IN ORDER TO SEPARATE IT OUT, IN YOUR

OPINION?

A. IF YOU HAD SOMETHING LIKE DAILY OR WEEKLY WATER

LEVEL DATA AT THE SITES WHERE YOU TOOK YOUR

SAMPLES. AND THEN YOU ALSO COLLECTED SAMPLES FROM

AREAS THAT YOU KNEW WERE RECEIVING NUTRIENT

ENRICHMENTS, SO YOU WOULD HAVE GOOD HYDROPERIOD

DATA THERE, BUT YOU WOULD ALSO SAMPLE SITES THAT

WOULD HAVE A LONG HYDROPERIOD BUT WOULD NOT BE

SUBJECT TO THE FLOW -- TO THE NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT

PROCESS.

Q. I THINK YOU'RE SUGGESTING A RATHER MASSIVE SCALE

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 136

PROJECT, ARE YOU NOT?

A. NOT NECESSARILY. I ALMOST THINK -- IT WOULD BE

HARD TO DO. THE --- I THINK THE SHORTAGE OF DATA

IS GOOD WATER LEVEL DATA FOR SITES WHERE SOILS ARE

COLLECTED AND WHERE PEAT ACCUMU -- YOU KNOW, WHERE

WE MEASURE PEAT ACCUMULATION.

Q. SO, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS AT THE SITES -- LET'S

SAY, THE ONE, TWO THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX -- THE

SEVEN SITES THAT YOU BASED THIS MANUSCRIPT ON,

CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN

USEFUL TO HAVE HYDROPERIOD DATA EACH OF THOSE

SITES?

A. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GREAT.

Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU?

A. BECAUSE IT WOULD INVOLVE GOING OUT AND SETTING UP

A TIDE -- WELL, NOT A TIDE GAUGE, BUT A WATER

LEVEL RECORDER AT EACH OF THE SITES, AND TRYING TO

CONTINUOUSLY MEASURE IT---

Q. OKAY.

A. ---OR HAVE SOMEBODY GO OUT THERE ONCE A WEEK FOR

THE NEXT TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER,

THE PEAT ACCRETION IS A TWENTY-FIVE YEAR PERIOD,

AND WHAT YOU REALLY NEED IS TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF

WATER LEVEL DATA AT EACH OF THOSE SITES.

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 137

Q. OKAY. AND HOW LONG A PERIOD DO YOU THINK IT

WOULD TAKE TO HAVE THE KIND OF DATA THAT YOU THINK

WOULD BE NECESSARY TO SEPARATE THE HYDROPERIOD

FROM THE NUTRIENT? WOULD YOU NEED TWENTY-FIVE

YEARS?

A. I WOULD FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OF

DATA.

Q. OKAY. CAN YOU TELL ME -- IS THAT THE REASON WHY

NOBODY IS SEPARATING OUT HYDROPERIOD FROM THE

NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT---

A. I THINK---

Q. ---BECAUSE YOU NEED A TWENTY-FIVE YEAR STUDY?

A. ---I THINK THE -- YEAH, THE DATA JUST DOES NOT

EXIST, OR THERE'S NOT A LOT OF GOOD DATA.

TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AGO, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE

WERE THINKING ABOUT THESE SORTS OF THINGS AND

SO---

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT KIND OF HYDROPERIOD DATA DID YOU

HAVE FOR THIS PARTICULAR CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER

FIVE?

A. WELL, AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE FIGURE HERE, THAT IS

DATA THAT WAS TAKEN FROM THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER

MANAGEMENT DISTRICT FROM THE SWIM PLAN. IT'S A

FIGURE -- WHY? WE DESIGNED THE FIGURE. BUT THE

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 138

WATER LEVEL DATA THERE SHOWING THE SHADING IS

TAKEN FROM THEM, AND I THINK IT'S BASED ON THEIR

HYDROLOGY MODEL. AND I BELIEVE EVEN IN THE TEXT,

THEY SAY THESE ARE AREAS THAT THEY BELIEVE ARE

WETTER THAN THEY HISTORICALLY WERE, AND THESE

OTHER AREAS THEY BELIEVE ARE DRYER THAN THEY

HISTORICALLY WERE. THAT'S THE BEST DATA I COULD

FIND. AND IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY GOOD,

BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S ADEQUATE TO REALLY

QUANTITATIVELY ADDRESS THE DIFFERENCE.

Q. OKAY. SO, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FIGURE 1 TO

YOUR CRAFT EXHIBIT NUMBER FIVE, AND IT SAYS AN

OVERDRAINED AREA, AND AN AREA OF EXTENDED

HYDROPERIOD, YOU'RE SAYING THAT THIS CAME FROM

THE '92 SWIM PLAN?

A. WELL, I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK. IF IT -- WHETHER IT

COMES FROM '92, OR -- THIS IS ACTUALLY FROM '90,

BUT IT MAY ALSO BE IN THE '92 SWIM PLAN.

Q. SURE. OKAY. FROM THE '90 SWIM PLAN. AND

ESSENTIALLY THEY DEFINE OVERDRAINED -- THESE AREAS

AS BEING OVERDRAINED AS HAVING LESS WATER THAN

THEY BELIEVE THEY HISTORICALLY HAD, AND THE AREAS

OF EXTENDED HYDROPERIOD ARE AREAS THAT HAVE MORE

WATER THAN HISTORICALLY?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 139

A. YES.

Q. OKAY. BUT THERE'S NO QUANTIFICATION BEYOND---

A. NO.

Q. ---THAT?

A. NO. HUH-UH (NO).

Q. OKAY. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU BASE YOUR CONCLUSIONS

UPON WAS THAT, THAT DELINEATION?

A. RIGHT.

Q. OKAY. OKAY. I GUESS THE OBVIOUS QUESTION THAT A

LOT OF US ON THIS SIDE OF THE TABLE ARE THINKING

IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU DO IN THE SHORT TERM TO

ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM OF PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION

VERSUS HYDROPERIOD?

A. I THINK -- AND THIS WOULD COST SOME MONEY ALSO --

WOULD TO BE TRY TO SET UP SOME MESOCOSMS, OR SOME

KIND OF MAYBE THREE METER BY THREE METER CONCRETE

CONTAINERS AND GROW PLANTS UNDER, YOU KNOW, WHERE

YOU CAN ACTUALLY REGULATE THE FLOODING, AND YOU

CAN ALSO REGULATE THE AMOUNT OF PHOSPHORUS THAT,

YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO ADD TO THE SYSTEM; AND PLANT

IT WITH EMERGENT VEGETATION; AND TRY TO FOLLOW

PEAT BUILDUP OVER A THREE, OR FIVE, OR TEN YEAR

PERIOD. YOU KNOW, A YEAR OF DATA WOULD NOT BE

GOOD ENOUGH. I WOULD THINK THREE WOULD BE

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 140

MINIMUM, AND I'M NOT EVEN SURE IF THAT WOULD

ENOUGH. BUT YOU COULD PUT A -- YOU KNOW, IN A

CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT LIKE THAT, YOU COULD PUT A

MARK ON THE CONCRETE WALL AS TO WHERE THE SOIL

SURFACE IS AT TIME ZERO, AND MAYBE, YOU KNOW, OVER

THREE GROWING SEASONS TRY TO DETERMINE SOMETHING

ALONG THOSE LINES.

Q. OKAY. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A GREENHOUSE

EXPERIMENT THAT WOULD -- THE MESOCOSM WOULD

SIMULATE WHAT GOES ON IN THE---

A. OR AN OUTDOOR. YOU COULD DO IT OUTSIDE DOWN THERE

EVEN, I THINK.

Q. OH, OKAY. ALL RIGHT. A MESOCOSM OUTDOORS. AND I

GUESS MY CONCERN IS HOW DO YOU SIMULATE ALL THE

EVERGLADES IN A THREE BY THREE METER AREA.

A. WELL, YOU DO THE BEST YOU CAN. I MEAN, YOU GIVE

UP SOME OF THE REALISM WITH SOMETHING THAT SMALL,

BUT YOU GET A LOT GREATER CONTROL OVER THE

HYDROPERIOD AND THE NUTRIENT LOADING.

Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF HYDROPERIOD DATA FOR WATER

CONSERVATION AREA 2A THAT THE SOUTH FLORIDA WATER

MANAGEMENT DISTRICT HAS?

A. SOME. I THINK THEY HAVE A 217 GAUGE. I'M NOT

SURE IF THAT'S THE CORRECT NUMBER, BUT I KNOW THEY

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 141

HAVE A PERMANENT -- ONE PERMANENT LOCATION OUT

THERE, YEAH.

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DONE ANY EFFORT TO CORRELATE THAT

WATER LEVEL DATA WITH YOUR NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT

DATA?

A. WE'VE JUST -- I'VE JUST LOOKED AT IT, BUT I

HAVEN'T REALLY TRIED. I JUST FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW,

ONE POINT LOCATED SIX OR EIGHT MILES AWAY FROM MY

SAMPLING POINTS, I JUST -- YOU JUST CAN'T -- I

DON'T THINK YOU CAN GET A GOOD RELIABLE ESTIMATE;

I THINK THERE'S PROBLEMS THERE.

Q. OKAY.

A. THAT'S GOOD DATA FOR THAT LOCATION, AND I THINK

IT'S GOOD DATA FOR THE TWENTY-FIVE YEAR PERIOD FOR

THAT LOCATION. BUT IF YOU HAD MEASURED PEAT

ACCRETION THERE, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO RELATE

SOMETHING TO IT.

Q. ALL RIGHT. I -- IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT

WATER CONSERVATION AREA 2A DRIES FROM NORTH TO

SOUTH? IF IT DRIES OUT, HOW DOES IT DRY? OR WHEN

IT DRIES -- DURING DROUGHT PERIODS, HOW DOES IT

DRY?

A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.

Q. OKAY. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. CAN YOU -- AND I GUESS

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 142

THIS IS SORT OF A GENERIC TYPE QUESTION, BUT IT'S

SORT OF CENTRAL TO UNDERSTANDING A LOT OF THE

WORK. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT AN ENRICHED AREA VERSUS

AN UNENRICHED AREA, CAN YOU QUANTIFY THAT FOR ME,

DR. CRAFT?

A. I CAN QUANTIFY IN TERMS OF WHEN I SPEAK OF

ENRICHED, IT'S AN AREA THAT RECEIVES N AND P

ENRICHED WATER.

Q. OKAY. IT'S ENRICHED OVER WHAT? WHAT'S YOUR

BASELINE?

A. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK THROUGH THE PAPER

AS TO WHAT THE BASELINE WOULD BE. AREAS -- BY

UNENRICHED AREAS, THAT DO NOT RECEIVE N AND P

ENRICHED AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE. I THINK THE

CENTRAL PART OF CONSERVATION AREA 3A WOULD BE,

YOU KNOW, AN AREA THAT HASN'T RECEIVED

ENRICHMENT.

Q. OKAY. BUT HOW DO WE KNOW AS -- LET'S SAY WE'RE

JUST STOMPING THROUGH 2A -- YOU KNOW, I'M JUST A

LITTLE FIELD RESEARCHER STOMPING THROUGH THE

MARSH, AND I'M NOT LOOKING AT THE MACROPHYTES OR

THE PERIPHYTON TO TRY AND DECIDE IF I'M IN AN

ENRICHED AREA OR NOT, I'M JUST MOVING THROUGH

TESTING SOIL AND WATER. WHERE DO I DECIDE THAT I

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 143

HAVE COME TO AN UNENRICHED SITE? WHAT WILL I FIND

AT THAT UNENRICHED SITE NUMERICALLY?

A. WELL, YOU WOULD FIND -- IF YOU'RE TROMPING ALONG

AND TAKING SAMPLES PERIODICALLY, YOU'LL REACH

A POINT WHERE -- LET'S SAY YOU'RE MEASURING

SURFACE -- PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION IN THE SURFACE

SOIL---

Q. UH-HUH (YES).

A. ---IT LEVELS OFF, OR, YOU KNOW, IT DECLINES AS YOU

MOVE AWAY FROM THE HILLSBORO CANAL, AND AT SOME

POINT IT KIND OF LEVELS OFF.

Q. OH, SO, WHEN I REACH A LEVELING OFF POINT, YOU

BELIEVE THAT WOULD BE UNENRICHED?

A. WELL, BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP FOLLOWING YOUR LINE AND

MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T COME BACK UP AGAIN, YOU KNOW,

BECAUSE---

Q. OKAY. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT VIRTUALLY ALL OF 2A

WOULD BE ENRICHED?

A. IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT I DON'T THINK SO.

Q. WHY?

A. JUST FROM THE DATA THAT WE -- THAT I'VE COLLECTED,

I REACH A POINT WHERE WE SEEM TO REACH THESE

BACKGROUND PHOSPHORUS LEVELS IN THE SOIL, AND

THEY'RE COMPARABLE TO WHAT WE SEE IN CONSERVATION

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 144

AREA 3A.

Q. OKAY. SO, YOU'RE JUDGING THE BACKGROUND IN 2A BY

WHAT YOU FIND IN 3A?

A. NOT -- NO, NOT NECESSARILY, BUT I THINK THAT IS

ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT CAN BE USED.

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT ARE THOSE CONCENTRATION RANGES?

A. WE SEE -- AT LEAST FOR TOTAL SOIL PHOSPHORUS, IT

SEEMS -- BACKGROUND SEEMS TO BE AROUND LESS THAN

SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM, OR FIVE TO SIX

HUNDRED MICROGRAMS PER GRAM. AND THIS IS JUST

BASED ON TOTAL SOIL PHOSPHORUS, NOW.

Q. YOU'RE SAYING SIX HUNDRED MICROGRAMS?

A. FIVE TO SIX HUNDRED.

Q. FIVE TO SIX HUNDRED?

A. (NODS AFFIRMATIVELY.)

Q. AND IS THAT THE SAME IN 3A?

A. THAT SEEMS TO BE SIMILAR. THESE ARE IN THE

SURFACE SOILS, NOW.

Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT PORE?

A. I HAVEN'T DONE ANY OF THAT KIND OF WORK, SO.

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU BEEN ANYWHERE, OTHER

THAN 3A, WHERE YOU WOULD JUDGE A BACKGROUND

AREA?

A. 2B. BUT THE SOILS ARE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT THERE,

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 145

AND, SO, IT'S A LITTLE BIT HARDER TO COMPARE THEM.

AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE MORE MINERAL MATERIAL IN

THEM.

Q. ARE THEY MORE MARLY PEAT IN 2B?

A. THERE IS MORE MARL. THERE'S STILL PEAT, BUT THEY

ARE SHALLOWER -- THE PEATS ARE SHALLOWER THERE,

AND THERE'S A LITTLE BIT -- THERE SEEMS TO BE MORE

MINERAL MATERIAL.

Q. DOES THAT AFFECT THE PHOSPHORUS LEVELS?

A. IT CAN, YEAH.

Q. DO YOU THINK IT DOES?

A. YEAH, I THINK THE MINERAL CONTENT DOES. IT IS ONE

DETERMINATE OF PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION -- CAN BE

A DETERMINATE.

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU BEEN ANYWHERE ELSE THAT YOU COULD

JUDGE A BACKGROUND LEVEL OF PHOSPHORUS?

A. NO.

Q. OKAY. WILL YOU BE LOOKING AT THE DATA THAT'S

COLLECTED IN THE PARK AND THE REFUGE AND COMPARING

IT?

A. IF I EVER GET TO GO INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE

TO TAKE SAMPLES, I'M SURE I WOULD, BUT---

Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE THAT PEOPLE WILL BE GOING

INTO THE PARK AND THE REFUGE?

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 146

A. I AM, NOW.

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU HELPED DESIGN THOSE STUDIES IN THE

PARK AND THE REFUGE?

A. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IT, AND IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY

FALL FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS, WE TALK ABOUT IT AND

THEN NOTHING EVER HAPPENS, SO---

Q. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT EVEN AS WE SPEAK, DR. CRAFT,

THERE ARE PEOPLE MARCHING INTO THE REFUGE PULLING

SAMPLES.

A. IS THIS TRUE?

Q. YES.

A. WELL, GOOD.

Q. NOW---

A. OF COURSE, I WOULD FEEL BETTER, IF I'M GOING TO BE

DOING THE ANALYSIS, THAT I'M INVOLVED TO SOME

EXTENT IN THAT. BUT WE'LL SEE.

Q. OH, SO, YOU DO NOT KNOW IF YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO

PARTICIPATE IN THESE COLLECTIONS?

A. WELL, IF THEY'RE COLLECTING NOW, I DON'T THINK

YOU-ALL ARE GOING TO ALLOW ME TO PARTICIPATE, SO.

I JUST FEEL LIKE IF I AM INVOLVED IN THE ANALYSIS,

I LIKE TO BE INVOLVED IN THE SAMPLE COLLECTION

TO MAKE SURE THAT THINGS ARE DONE UP TO MY

EXPECTATIONS.

DR. CRAFT VOLUME II PAGE 147

Q. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF WHO'S DOING THE SAMPLE

COLLECTIONS?

A. NO. THIS IS NEWS TO ME, SO---

Q. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE

GOING TO BE ASKED TO ANALYZE THOSE SAMPLE

COLLECTIONS?

A. NOT AT THIS POINT.

Q. OKAY.

A. I MEAN, THIS IS -- I WILL SAY, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT

THIS OFF AND ON FOR TWO YEARS AND NOTHING EVER

HAPPENS, SO.

Q. I AM WELL AWARE OF THE HISTORY. I'D LIKE TO ASK

YOU WHO THE "WE" IS?

A. ME AND DR. RICHARDSON---

Q. OKAY.

A. ---AND I THINK DR. QUALLS. YOU KNOW, ALL THREE

OF US HAS TALKED ABOUT IT AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER,

BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE AN INTEREST---

Q. OKAY.

A. ---CAUSE WE HAVE, LIKE, PIECES OF THE EVERGLADES,

BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE WHOLE -- THE WHOLE

FRUITCAKE, SO TO SPEAK.

Q. OKAY. HAVE YOU DESIGNED THE COLLECTION OF THE

FRUITCAKE?