48 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 1:45 p.m. 3 BY MR. HYDE: 4 Q. Let's go back to page 19 of Exhibit 3. 5 Again, looking to the summary on the 6 bottom of page 19 of Exhibit 3, under item 1, you say 7 that the "alga taxa in periphyton differs 8 considerably from site to site in the southern 9 Everglades." 10 Can you attribute certain characteristics 11 of certain sites or certain types of sites, is there 12 some uniformity there that you noticed? 13 A. Well, there are certain sites, I guess, 14 like Site A is distinctive from the others, and then 15 there's sort of a gradation between one site to the 16 other. 17 Q. Let me ask the question a little bit 18 differently. Why are they different, where do they 19 differ from site to site? 20 A. Well, I think the environmental conditions 21 differ from site to site, that's why they differ. 22 And in the analyses that we were talking about, it 23 looks like there's some other analyses here in the 24 body of the text that suggested to me that 25 hydroperiod was an important factor in determining 49 1 the difference, so that was one of the reasons why 2 they were different. 3 Q. Hydroperiods differ from site to site? 4 A. Correct. 5 And phosphorus stood out to be another 6 factor that made them different from site to site. 7 Q. It would that be generally true of other 8 areas? 9 A. Well, I only did this analysis in this 10 area. David Swift looked at periphyton in the 11 conservation areas. He did the same analysis that I 12 did, but he did find the relationship of I believe 13 the proportion of blue-greens inversely correlated 14 with water depth: the deeper the water, the less the 15 blue-greens. 16 I think I mentioned that someplace else. 17 Q. Have you ever done any studies in the 18 northern portions of the water conservation areas? 19 A. No. 20 Q. All your studies have been generally in 21 the areas you described earlier, around the 22 Everglades National Park? 23 A. Right, where this is shown. 24 Q. Can you extrapolate your opinions to the 25 northern portions of the water conservation areas? 50 1 MS. STARK: Objection to the question. 2 MR. McGRATH: I join in the objection. 3 BY MR. HYDE: 4 Q. You may go ahead and answer if you 5 understand the question. 6 A. Well, in the synthesis, I didn't try to 7 extrapolate, I used David Swift's observations and I 8 used Pat Gleason's observations. 9 Q. You stated earlier, though, that in your 10 work, that conditions differed -- well, the taxa 11 differed from site to site because of environmental 12 conditions. Would you expect that general principle 13 to hold true in other areas, not just the Everglades 14 Park area? 15 A. Yes. 16 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 17 question. 18 BY MR. HYDE: 19 Q. Your answer was yes. Is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So would it then be appropriate to examine 22 site-specific conditions when one is examining 23 periphyton communities? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Item No. 2 under the summary reads, and I 51 1 quote: "Blue-green algae make up 90 percent or more 2 of the algal volume in periphyton at many southern 3 Everglades locations." The predominant genus, making 4 up 50 percent or more of volume at most sites, is 5 Scytonema." 6 Addressing the first sentence first in 7 that quote, do you regard the fact that these 8 blue-green algae make up 90 percent or more of the 9 algal volume as being indicative or an indicator of 10 some disturbance in the environmental conditions at 11 those sites in the southern Everglades? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What would you normally expect to find, 14 say, in a more or less pristine or undisturbed or 15 background condition? 16 A. A higher percentage of diatoms maybe, 15 17 to 20 percent or more. 18 Q. Just diatoms? 19 A. Particularly diatoms. You might also 20 expect to find some greens, particularly desmids, at 21 an undisturbed site. 22 Q. Item 4 indicates that "Desmids are a 23 relatively minor component of southern Everglades 24 periphyton." 25 Would you still think they would, even in 52 1 a pristine background area, be a relatively 2 unimportant factor? 3 A. I think they would be more important in a 4 pristine environment. 5 Q. But would you still think that blue-greens 6 would predominate, more than 50 percent? 7 A. Possibly. 8 Q. Have you examined any areas that you would 9 consider background or pristine or whatever in your 10 mind would represent a typical mix of blue-greens, 11 greens and diatoms and desmids? 12 A. Well, I think that Site VIII might have 13 been more typical, and I think that the C-111 area 14 might be more typical. Let me see if I have that. 15 (Pause) 16 A. Yes. Site XVII. 17 Q. What page were you referring to there? Is 18 that 92? 19 A. Probably. I think I was looking at 93 -- 20 yes, 93, because XVII is not on 92. In that 21 particular quarter, we had not yet added Sites XIII 22 through XVII. 23 Q. So at Site VIII, the percent of 24 blue-greens was 38.66 percent? 25 A. Yes. 53 1 Q. And green, 16.53 percent, and diatoms, 2 44.80 percent, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And XIII, did you say XIII -- no, XVII? 5 A. XVII, right. 6 Q. XVII was 39.36 percent blue-greens, 6.95 7 percent greens, and 53.69 percent diatoms? 8 A. Right. Site XIII also might be one of 9 those more typical sites. 10 Q. Would you regard these relative 11 proportions as being more indicative then of more 12 natural or undisturbed areas of the southern 13 Everglades? 14 A. More natural, longer hydroperiod. 15 Q. Would you expect to find the same relative 16 proportions in the northern Everglades as are 17 indicated here? 18 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 19 question. 20 MR. McGRATH: Objection. 21 MS. STARK: You may answer if you know. 22 THE WITNESS: Probably. You can look at 23 David Swift's work, though, to get an idea because he 24 did that. 25 BY MR. HYDE: 54 1 Q. So you think David Swift's work would 2 indicate something along the same lines in an 3 understand disturbed area as to the relative mixture 4 of greens and blue-greens to diatoms? 5 A. Some of it, yes. 6 Q. Let's compare Site XVII to, for example, 7 Site XVI, the line above. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. There's quite a bit of difference there in 10 terms of mixtures. Do you regard those different 11 relative proportions as being indicative of some 12 species imbalance at Site XVI? 13 A. Well, they reflect a certain species 14 imbalance, an overdominance of blue-green algae. 15 Q. Have you ever been asked to examine the 16 Department of Environmental Regulations' water 17 quality standards? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Have you ever reviewed them independently? 20 A. No, I haven't. 21 Q. Does the term "imbalance" have any meaning 22 to you as a scientist? 23 A. Well, there can be imbalance in a lot of 24 different ways. 25 Q. Does it have any particular meaning to you 55 1 in terms of evaluating periphyton communities? 2 A. I never used the term in anything I have 3 ever written. 4 Q. The reason I'm mentioning this is one of 5 the administrative rules that governs the case speaks 6 to an imbalance in species of flora and fauna. 7 A. In the community. 8 Q. Yes, and I'm just wondering if that term 9 has some meaning in the scientific sense of 10 evaluating communities in this instance like 11 periphyton? 12 A. Well, there are very specific terms for 13 measuring diversity and quantifying it, and none of 14 those terms are "imbalance," but they sort of would 15 be sort of synonymous perhaps with "imbalance." 16 Q. Are you referring to something like the 17 Shannon Weaver Index? 18 A. Yes, that's one of them. That's another 19 term. 20 Q. Something like the Shannon Weaver Index to 21 compare and contrast these relative proportions of 22 blue-greens, greens and diatoms? 23 A. It might be interesting to do that. 24 Q. Is that something that someone would 25 usually do? 56 1 A. Well, I don't know. I haven't seen it 2 done, but it wouldn't have been appropriate in our 3 case because we weren't defining all the species. 4 Q. Why does the lack of defining species 5 impact on that? 6 A. Well, generally when you do that, you are 7 doing it at the species level. 8 Q. Going back to page 19, the fifth item 9 reads: "Other green algae are important at a few 10 locations." 11 Can you explain to me the significance of 12 that statement? 13 A. They made up an important part of the 14 volume apparently at only a few places, other algae. 15 Q. So you are only speaking here to volume? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are you speaking at all to the role and 18 function of the ecosystem? 19 A. No, I'm not, I am only speaking of volume. 20 Q. Turn to the next page, 20. 21 Item 6 reads, and I quote: "A succession 22 keyed to hydroperiod appears to occur. Blue-green 23 algae become reestablished in an area very quickly 24 upon reflooding following drying. Several months of 25 continuous flooding are required for diatoms and 57 1 green algae to become fully reestablished after an 2 area has dried. Probably for this reason, 3 hydroperiod is a very important factor in determining 4 algal composition of periphyton." 5 Do you still agree with that statement? 6 A. I think so. 7 Q. The statement is somewhat qualified by the 8 use of terms such as "appears to occur" and "could," 9 things like that, and do you mean it to have that 10 kind of qualification, or do you mean this statement 11 in more of an affirmative sense that a succession 12 keyed to hydroperiod is occurring? 13 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 14 question. You can answer it. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, science has always 16 been seeking the truth, and you try, you are always 17 working toward getting what the truth is, but there's 18 always some subjectivity to it, to understanding 19 what's going on. 20 BY MR. HYDE: 21 Q. Would you say you are satisfied with this 22 conclusion to a reasonable degree of scientific 23 certainty? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You said that the "blue-green algae become 58 1 reestablished in an area very quickly upon reflooding 2 following drying." What kind of blue-green algae? 3 A. Well, the Scytonema and Schizothrix. 4 Q. What about microcoleus? 5 A. I really don't know very much about 6 microcoleus. 7 Q. Why do you think the Scytonema and 8 Schizothrix become reestablished so quickly? 9 A. I think they are resistant to desiccation, 10 and they have akenes also that are resistant to 11 desiccation, and they can come back very quickly 12 after that. 13 Q. Would you spell akenes for me. 14 A. A K E N E S. 15 Q. Are there any green algae? 16 A. They have gelatinous -- 17 MS. STARK: Wait until a question is 18 pending. 19 Q. Go ahead. 20 A. They have gelatinous sheaths around them 21 to help prevent them from drying. 22 Q. Can they withstand a drought or a drying 23 period almost indefinitely? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Have you made any observations generally 59 1 about how long they can last in these situations? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are there any green periphyton that are 4 similarly tough in terms of drought conditions, 5 resistance? 6 A. I don't think so. 7 Q. What about diatoms? 8 A. I think they can be sometimes resistant. 9 Q. Are there a specific species or set of 10 species that fall into that category? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Are you aware of any literature or studies 13 that might indicate what they are? 14 A. Nancy Maynard is an expert on diatoms. 15 Q. Are you using diatoms and green algaes 16 synonymously or in a separate category? 17 A. Separate category. 18 Q. Item 7 reads, and I quote: "Soil organic 19 matter appears to affect algal composition of 20 periphyton, possibly by reducing the diurnal 21 variation in pH. (Large diurnal fluctuations in pH, 22 dissolved oxygen and temperature favor blue-green 23 algae, according to other studies.)" 24 Addressing the first sentence first in 25 that statement, how would a reduction in the diurnal 60 1 variation in pH affect algal composition of 2 periphyton? 3 A. Well, for instance, if a type of 4 periphyton needed certain type of water conditions, 5 like desmids need soft water conditions, relatively 6 low pH, and if the pH is going high and low within 7 the day regularly, they might exclude the desmids. 8 Q. What environmental conditions might cause 9 radical fluctuations in pH concentration? 10 A. Well, photosynthesis causes diurnal 11 variation in pH and dissolved oxygen. 12 Q. Let's address the second sentence then. 13 You say that blue-green algae are favored by these 14 large diurnal fluctuations in pH. Why? 15 A. Because they can tolerate them and some of 16 the other algae can't. 17 Q. Green periphyton cannot, would that be a 18 fair statement? 19 A. Well, desmids cannot. 20 Q. Well, is it the blue-green algae that's 21 causing the fluctuations in pH or is the pH creating 22 the conditions that are conducive to the blue-green 23 algae? 24 A. I guess all of the algae are creating the 25 fluctuation in pH, it depends on how much is there. 61 1 Also it depend on the bicarbonate concentration of 2 the water, that changes. 3 Q. Are the blue-green algae also influencing 4 the fluctuations in dissolved oxygen concentrations? 5 A. Yes, all the algae that are there now. 6 Q. That would be the same with greens and 7 desmids and diatoms? 8 A. Right, and the emergent plants that die 9 fall no the water, they are also affecting the oxygen 10 content because when they decompose, they take up 11 oxygen. 12 Q. I guess I'm a little bit confused here 13 with the statement because it seems to be saying on 14 the one hand that diurnal fluctuations in pH and 15 dissolved oxygen affect favorably green algae, and 16 yet you are also saying that all of the periphyton 17 influences fluctuations in pH and dissolved oxygen. 18 A. Influencing it, whether it favors them or 19 not. 20 MS. STARK: There's no question pending 21 yet. 22 BY MR. HYDE: 23 Q. Maybe you had anticipated my question, but 24 I am just asking you how are they influencing them 25 and at what point -- strike that. 62 1 Is there a threshold, if you will, above 2 which blue-green algae are favored over, say, green 3 algaes or the others? 4 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of that 5 question. You can answer. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 7 BY MR. HYDE: 8 Q. Well, you would expect, wouldn't you, 9 there to be fluctuation in the pH and dissolved 10 oxygen? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So above some certain point in that 13 fluctuation, you will have conditions that favor 14 blue-greens over the other types of periphyton. 15 Would that be correct? 16 A. This is something that I say according to 17 other studies, and, unfortunately, I don't cite those 18 other studies, and it has been so long ago that I 19 don't know how to go back to them and look and see 20 what they say. 21 Q. Do you recall what those studies are and 22 the authors? 23 A. That's what I'm saying, I don't. 24 Q. Moving on now to item 8 which reads: 25 "Changing the hydroperiod of an area has two effects 63 1 on taxonomic composition of periphyton: a direct 2 immediate effect and an indirect effect caused by the 3 change in percent soil organic matter in bottom 4 sediment, which is hydroperiod-related." 5 Explain to me, if you will, what the 6 direct immediate effect is. 7 A. The direct immediate effect is that 8 there's a long period of being dry without any water 9 on the surface of the soil, that's an immediate 10 effect. 11 Q. What's the indirect effect? 12 A. That would be when you have conditions 13 like that, you get a deposition of calcite, so your 14 soil is going to change. 15 Q. What does it change to? 16 A. Well, if it was highly organic soil, it 17 will change to a calcitic soil on top. I don't mean 18 organic soil will be replaced by calcitic soil, but, 19 rather, that the calcitic soil will deposit on top of 20 the organic soil. 21 Q. What's the significance of that calcitic 22 soil deposition? 23 A. Well, presumably that could affect the 24 chemistry in the water color above it. 25 Q. How would it affect that water chemistry? 64 1 A. There might be more calcium available in 2 the water if it dissolved into the water. 3 Q. What affects would that have? 4 A. Well, then the algae could precipitate. 5 Q. It sounds sort of circular? 6 A. Yes. You can have calcite precipitation 7 because the calcite in the soil provided the calcium 8 to precipitate. 9 Q. What ecological impact is this going to 10 have if we start going down the track towards this 11 calcitic deposition? 12 A. Well, I think that would take some 13 thought. 14 Q. Have you done any analysis in that regard? 15 A. No, no, I haven't. 16 Q. Item 9 states: "Salinity may inhibit some 17 major blue-green algal species in southern Everglades 18 periphyton." 19 Why would that occur? 20 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 21 question. 22 THE WITNESS: I honestly don't know. I 23 don't know why I made that statement. There's no 24 reference, so I can't look into it. 25 BY MR. HYDE: 65 1 Q. Item 10 discusses feeding and growth 2 experiments with one Everglades organism. 3 Were these experiments that you conducted 4 yourself? 5 A. They were experiments that some 6 contractors did for me. 7 Q. What was the organism utilized for the 8 purposes of those studies? 9 A. Hyla squirella. 10 Q. What is that? 11 A. It is a squirrel tree frog. 12 Q. Is this the tadpole stage of the tree 13 frog? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Do you know how that study or experiment 16 was set up? 17 A. There's a report on it and we could look 18 at it. It has been a while since I looked at it, but 19 it was set up in a series of aquaria. 20 Q. Well, relate to me, if you will, your 21 understanding of how that experiment was conducted, 22 just in a thumbnail sketch. 23 A. May I refer to the papers? 24 Q. Sure. 25 A. It has been quite a while. 66 1 Approximately 450 small tadpoles were 2 collected from a roadside ditch, and they were all 3 approximately the same size. 4 Q. What document are you referring to, by the 5 way? 6 A. Comparison of Laboratory Growth of Hyla 7 Squirella Tadpoles on Everglades Periphyton. 8 MR. HYDE: Why don't we attach this to the 9 deposition as Exhibit 4. 10 (Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked for 11 identification) 12 BY MR. HYDE: 13 Q. What page were you referring to in Exhibit 14 4? 15 A. Page 3, next to the last paragraph. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. They were held for one day without any 18 feeding to clear their digestive tracts. Then 90 19 were harvested in two groups and put in frozen 20 storage, so they were sacrificed, to get pretrial 21 weights. 22 The remaining were divided into eight 23 groups of approximately 45 each for placement in 24 separate aquaria, and then four different rations 25 were fed to them, one ration fed to each aquaria. And 67 1 the rations came from the sites that we discussed in 2 the previous study. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And one ration came from a high blue-green 5 site, one came from a high diatom site, and the other 6 from a high green site, and then there was a Carolina 7 ration, a commercial ration, Carolina Biological 8 Supply tadpole feed, and that's how it was set up. 9 Q. What results did that study yield? 10 A. Well, they were fed for 10 days, and then 11 they were allowed to empty their stomachs for a day, 12 and then harvested and placed in frozen storage and 13 then weighed. First they were dried and then 14 weighed, and they got an average tadpole weight for 15 each set. 16 And they found that the frogs gained the 17 most weight on the Carolina feed, but the diatom-rich 18 periphyton was significantly greater than growth 19 rates on either the rich-green or rich blue-green 20 algae periphyton. They had negative growth on the 21 high blue-green periphyton. 22 Q. You mean they lost weight? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. What species of blue-green algae were 25 utilized in that experiment? 68 1 A. This was taken from a site in Taylor 2 Slough, I think that was Site 4, and it was probably 3 mainly Scytonema and Schizothrix. 4 Q. Do you regard those tadpoles as being good 5 indicators of how species would utilize periphyton as 6 a food source? 7 A. Yes, they are one indicator, I think a 8 good one. 9 Q. Might other species utilize the periphyton 10 in a different way? For example, could other 11 species, say, find the blue-greens more or better 12 food source than, say, the greens or the desmids, 13 blue diatoms? 14 A. It is certainly conceivable. We have 15 another study that suggests that several different 16 organisms seem to select diatoms. 17 Q. What would those organisms be? 18 A. Gambusia, Mosquitofish. 19 Q. Anything else, by the common name? 20 A. Crayfish, Least Killifish. 21 Q. Have you seen any studies which suggest 22 that species diversity and density of benthic 23 macroinvertebrates is greater in areas predominated 24 by blue-green algae? 25 A. I haven't seen that information. 69 1 Q. Would that necessarily surprise you if 2 that were true? 3 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 4 question. 5 You may answer. 6 THE WITNESS: You will have to go back and 7 tell me that again. 8 BY MR. HYDE: 9 Q. Well, it is a proposition I guess that's a 10 hypothetical, that species density and diversity of 11 benthic macroinvertebrates is greater in areas 12 predominated by blue-green algae. It is a 13 hypothetical. 14 Assuming that to be true, would that 15 surprise you? 16 MS. STARK: Same objection. 17 MR. McGRATH: Join. 18 BY MR. HYDE: 19 Q. You may answer. 20 MS. STARK: You can answer. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't have any data. I 22 haven't read anything. 23 BY MR. HYDE: 24 Q. If you have no opinion or no answer, 25 that's fine, just say so. 70 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. Is that your answer, that you don't have 3 an opinion? 4 A. I think the diversity would be lower. 5 Q. I guess you would tend to disagree with 6 that hypothesis? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I would like to turn your attention back 9 to page 16. 10 MS. STARK: Is that on Exhibit 3? 11 MR. HYDE: Yes. 12 BY MR. HYDE: 13 Q. The bottom of the page under the 14 subheading "Discussion." 15 The first sentence reads, and I quote: 16 "Soil and hydrologic conditions appear to be the 17 overriding factors influencing the taxonomic 18 composition of Everglades periphyton." 19 Do you still agree with that statement? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. The next paragraph reads: "Not only are 22 percent soil organic matter and hydroperiod suggested 23 as the major factors controlling taxonomic 24 composition of southern Everglades periphyton, but 25 the relationship between these two factors, which is 71 1 reflected in the correlation results, is very strong. 2 Percent soil organic matter is a product 3 of the long-term hydroperiod of an area, because 4 flooding inhibits decomposition, which is primarily a 5 microbial process limited by available oxygen and 6 accelerated by exposure to air." Than you cite 7 Browder and Volk, 1978? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you still subscribe to that 10 observation? 11 A. Yes. I want to add one thing, though, 12 that the top sediment can be changed, as I mentioned 13 before. You can lay down calcite on top of soil 14 organic matter if you change the hydroperiod. 15 Q. How would that fact influence a change of 16 this observation here? 17 A. I guess I would add another sentence to 18 it. 19 Q. How would you propose that other sentence? 20 A. I would say that a change in hydroperiod 21 can result in accumulation of calcite soil on top of 22 organic soil. 23 Q. Back to your contractor's or 24 subcontractor's animal experiments with the tadpoles. 25 Do you regard the tadpole as being a representative 72 1 species in terms of evaluating whether changes in 2 periphyton composition were impacting upon various 3 species that utilize an ecosystem? 4 A. Well, I think it was a good species, it is 5 one you would expect to see frequently in the aquatic 6 environment in the Everglades. 7 Q. Can you think of any other species that 8 might be good indicators? 9 A. How broad do you want me to be? 10 Q. On the small side. 11 A. Gambusia. 12 Q. The species you indicated earlier? 13 A. Some of those species, yes, the Crayfish. 14 Q. Killifish? 15 A. Least Killifish, that's right. 16 MS. STARK: Can we take a short break now? 17 MR. HYDE: Sure, about five, 10 minutes. 18 (Recess) 19 BY MR. HYDE: 20 Q. Let's turn now to the document that's 21 Periphyton in the Everglades: Spatial Variation, 22 Environmental Correlates, and Ecological 23 Implications, 1991. 24 Let's mark this as Exhibit 5. 25 (Deposition Exhibit 5 was marked for 73 1 identification) 2 BY MR. HYDE: 3 Q. I assume you were the author of this 4 particular paper. Is that correct? 5 A. There's three authors. 6 Q. You are one of the three authors? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Were you the primary one? 9 A. I was the first author, yes. 10 Q. Does "first" mean the same as primary? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who commissioned this study? 13 A. It wasn't commissioned exactly, there was 14 a symposium on the Everglades held in Key Largo in 15 1989, and I was invited to present a paper on 16 periphyton at that symposium. I was specifically 17 asked to write a paper with David Swift and Pat 18 Gleason, and to be the principal author. 19 Q. Who invited you to do that? 20 A. Steve Davis and John Ogden, they were the 21 symposium organizers. 22 Q. Did you conduct any new experiments to 23 write this paper? 24 A. No. 25 Q. It was, for lack of a better term, a 74 1 literature review for studies previously done? 2 A. Yes, a review and synthesis. 3 Q. Was the study that we discussed earlier, 4 Exhibit 3, a primary source for this later paper? 5 A. Yes, one primary source. 6 Q. In analyzing your earlier paper, did you 7 arrive at any conclusions that were divergent from 8 the views expressed in your earlier paper? 9 A. I can't think of any that were divergent. 10 I think I arrived at more conclusions in looking at 11 that information in relation to other information. 12 Q. Did you write specific portions of this 13 paper here? 14 A. I wrote most of it. There are some 15 sections that Pat Gleason wrote. 16 Q. Do you recall which sections he wrote? 17 A. The sections probably having a great deal 18 of detail related to his work or his observations 19 Q. What about David Swift? 20 A. I think there might have been a paragraph 21 or two dealing with his work that he provided the 22 wording for. 23 Q. You are speaking about Mr. Gleason or Mr. 24 Swift? 25 A. Swift. And I used both their published 75 1 and unpublished work extensively. 2 Q. The date on this document is November 3 15th, 1991, yet it says below after "Chapter accepted 4 for publication in Proceedings of Everglades 5 Symposium, Key Largo, Florida, October 11-15-1889"? 6 A. This was the date of the symposium. 7 Q. Well, was this paper presented to the 8 symposium? 9 A. A presentation was made to the symposium, 10 but the paper was not. 11 Q. So this was prepared after? 12 A. Completely written, right. Just a nucleus 13 of the information in the paper was prepared by that 14 time. 15 Q. Turn to page 2, I guess, the abstract 16 portion of your presentation paper. About halfway 17 down the first paragraph, there's a sentence which 18 begins with the words: "At least three environmental 19 gradients -- hydroperiod-water depth, phosphorus 20 concentration, and aspects of water chemistry 21 involving the major ions, especially calcium -- 22 affect the toxonomic composition, growth 23 characteristics, structure, and extent of calcite 24 encrustation of Everglades periphyton." 25 I would like you just to explain a few 76 1 components of that statement before I get into any 2 substance of questions. What do you mean by the 3 phrase "encrustation"? 4 A. That's the calcite incorporated in the 5 periphyton. 6 Q. What are the major ions other than 7 calcium? 8 A. Magnesium, sodium, but there wasn't much 9 sodium in any of these samples. 10 Q. Was there any appreciable amount of 11 magnesium? 12 A. I don't know, we have to look at David 13 swift's paper to see this. 14 Q. Your sentence begins with the phrase "At 15 least." Does that mean that there are other 16 environmental gradients which may affect taxonomic 17 composition, etc., of Everglades periphyton? 18 A. Well, it leaves the possibility open that 19 there could be. 20 Q. Do you regard these three as being the 21 primary, if you will, gradients? 22 A. I think so. 23 Q. We discussed already how hydroperiod and 24 water depth and phosphorus concentration can affect 25 Everglades periphyton. How do the major ions affect 77 1 Everglades periphyton? 2 A. Well, where you have high concentrations 3 of calcium, you don't get the desmids, you don't get 4 high concentrations of desmids like were found in 5 Conservation Area 1. 6 Q. So the more major ions there are, the 7 fewer desmids there will be? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Why can't the desmids tolerate that higher 10 calcium water? 11 A. I think it has to do with the pH and what 12 the ions are associated with. 13 Q. By the way, do you still agree with the 14 gist of this statement here that I quoted? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You discussed three different types of 17 effects here, one is taxonomic composition, the 18 second is growth characteristics -- actually there 19 are four -- the third is structure, and the fourth is 20 extent of calcite encrustation. 21 How does hydroperiod-water depth affect 22 growth characteristics? 23 A. Well, only at a certain depth you will see 24 an algal mat. There's an exact depth given in here, 25 60. 78 1 Q. I think you are right, I think it is 60 2 centimeters. 3 Why is that? 4 A. Well, it is probably because the 5 conditions of the bottom of the water column are not 6 conducive to precipitation of calcite. 7 Q. What conditions are those? 8 A. Well, the degree of saturation with 9 respect to calcium carbonate, and that would be 10 affected by carbon dioxide in the water column. That 11 would be affected, as I mentioned earlier, by water 12 depth and possibly an amount of organic material 13 decomposing. 14 Q. What do you mean by the term "structure" 15 in the context of this sentence? 16 A. I think I mean the fine structure, whether 17 or not it is layered, a distinct layered structure or 18 if it is an amorphous structure. 19 Q. By "amorphous" you mean unconsolidated? 20 A. Indistinct, not layered. 21 Q. Can you perhaps be a little more 22 descriptive for me? I'm having trouble -- 23 A. Periphyton can look like sheets of 24 material laid down on top of each other. Actually, 25 whether it is a ream or a mat, if you slice through 79 1 the cylinder, it has structure, it will stay 2 together, and looking at it from the top and down, 3 you can see sort of that it is layered; an amorphous 4 periphyton would be not that way. 5 Q. Would this be sort of a filmy mass of 6 algae? 7 A. Yes, a glob. 8 Q. Is there any significance to that, that 9 differentiation between a layered periphyton and, 10 say, an amorphous periphyton? 11 A. I don't know. It is distinctive. 12 Q. Is it, to your knowledge, having any 13 adverse impact on hightrophic species? 14 A. Not that I know of. 15 Q. Does it have any adverse impact on the 16 habitat values of the periphyton? 17 A. Not that I know of. 18 Q. Well, let me ask you the general question. 19 Are these observed changes in taxonomic composition, 20 growth characteristics, structure and calcite 21 encrustation having any adverse impact, to your 22 knowledge, on that ecosystem habitat? 23 A. Well, I think that the taxonomic 24 composition influences the animals, the animal 25 community in the habitat and their food supply. 80 1 Q. You are speaking simply of food supply 2 there? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What about just looking at periphyton 5 habitat as opposed to a food source, is there any 6 adverse impact to periphyton in its function as 7 habitat? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. How is the phosphorus concentration 10 affecting taxonomic composition? 11 A. Well, there's a higher amount of 12 microcoleus where you have high phosphorus. 13 Q. The microcoleus is the periphyton that's 14 associated with the soil? 15 A. No, it is periphyton, it is a blue-green 16 algal that's associated with eutrophic conditions. 17 Q. You said it was associated, but does that 18 mean it was caused by? 19 A. Apparently. I think so. 20 Q. You are not sure? 21 A. Well, it was not my work, it was David's 22 work, and I think it is correct. 23 Q. You are relying on his opinion for that? 24 A. Yes, on his work. 25 Q. How is phosphorus affecting the structure 81 1 of the Everglades periphyton? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't 4 know." 5 A. That's good. 6 Q. I always find it refreshing when 7 scientists say that. Most scientists I deal with 8 have opinions about everything, including areas they 9 have no knowledge of whatsoever. 10 Is phosphorus having any impact on the 11 calcite encrustation phenomenon? 12 A. I really don't know that either. 13 Microcoleus does precipitate calcite according to the 14 literature. 15 Q. Are the major ions impacting taxonomic 16 composition? 17 A. I think they are a factor influencing. 18 Q. How so? 19 A. Well, when it is not complicated by 20 hydroperiod, I think it influences taxonomy. 21 Q. You said when it is not complicated by 22 hydroperiod it is influencing taxonomy? 23 A. Right. I think the hydroperiod influences 24 the water chemistry, actually, in a way that I have 25 explained. 82 1 Q. What if you have both together, that is, 2 short hydroperiod and phosphorus? 3 MS. STARK: I will object to the form of 4 the question. 5 You can answer. 6 THE WITNESS: I think phosphorus is a 7 limiting nutrient, so it is causing growth in 8 emergent plants and algae. When you have a short 9 hydroperiod, it inhibits that; when the hydroperiod 10 is longer, the phosphorus has more opportunity to 11 act. 12 BY MR. HYDE: 13 Q. So it would be fair to say in the shorter 14 hydroperiod, the phosphorus has lesser opportunity to 15 act? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. The longer the hydroperiod, it has more 18 opportunity to act? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In the latter instance, it is having more 21 effect than the former? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Phosphorus is a fertilizer, isn't it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Does it fertilize all types of periphyton? 83 1 A. Probably. 2 Q. Why aren't greens and diatoms and the 3 desmids able to take up phosphorus just like the 4 blue-greens are? 5 A. Well, perhaps microcoleus grows so fast 6 that the others don't get the opportunity to get the 7 light and so forth. There are desmids -- I mean 8 there are diatoms that are favored by eutrophic 9 conditions. 10 Q. Can you give me any representative 11 examples of those types of desmids or diatoms? 12 A. They are listed in here. 13 Q. What page, can you tell me? 14 A. If you look in Table 1 on page, on 15 continued No. 3. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. It would actually be on No. 4, continued 18 4. 19 Q. Okay. Thank you. 20 Can you separate out which of these three 21 environmental gradients is the more significant or 22 more influential 23 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 24 question. 25 BY MR. HYDE: 84 1 Q. I'm talking about in terms of causing 2 these impacts on Everglades periphyton communities. 3 A. The hydroperiod can overrule the other 4 two, does overrule the other two. 5 Q. I would like you to turn to page 26 of 6 Exhibit 5. I am looking now at the paragraph that 7 cites to the Swift and Nicholas report. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. The last sentence reads: "These 10 relationships seemed secondary to the effect of water 11 chemistry on taxonomic composition in the WCAs." 12 When I first read this, I assumed that Mr. 13 Swift and Nicholas were disagreeing with you at least 14 in some respects in terms of your observations 15 expressed in the previous paragraph? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is that true? 18 A. Their hydroperiod wasn't changing, their 19 water depth may have changed, but their hydroperiod 20 wasn't changing. 21 Q. What's the significance of that fact? 22 A. There was no effect of hydroperiod in 23 their study. 24 Q. They were only looking at other factors in 25 terms of having impacts on the periphyton community? 85 1 A. Right, including water depth. 2 Q. Did you think their analysis was going to 3 be appreciably altered if hydroperiod can come into 4 play as well? 5 MR. McGRATH: Objection to the form. 6 BY MR. HYDE: 7 Q. You may answer. 8 A. I think that the result, that the 9 hydroperiod could have come into play if some of 10 their sites had had short hydroperiods. If they had 11 the gradient of the hydroperiod, we may have seen a 12 difference. 13 Q. Turn now to page 44. Toward the bottom of 14 the page, you state: "hydroperiod and water depth 15 can affect, 1, the rate of organic matter production 16 by aquatic plants, and, 2, the rate of decomposition 17 of organic matter." 18 Can you explain to me how hydroperiod and 19 water depth affect, first, the rate of organic matter 20 production by aquatic plants? 21 A. Well, water isn't limiting and they can 22 grow faster, they won't be limited in their growth by 23 lack of water. 24 Q. How does hydroperiod -- well, were you 25 speaking of the hydroperiod then? 86 1 A. Well, I guess -- yes, I am speaking of the 2 hydroperiod. 3 Q. How does water depth affect the rate of 4 organic matter production? 5 A. If the water gets too or very high, you 6 won't have emergent plant growth, you will have 7 submerged plants growing. 8 Q. You mean like water lilies, something like 9 that? 10 A. Yes or waterworts. 11 Q. You also postulate that hydroperiod and 12 water depth affect the rate of decomposition of 13 organic matter. How does hydroperiod do that? 14 A. Well, if you have a short hydroperiod, you 15 get decomposition outside of the water. 16 Q. It oxidizes? 17 A. Right, and so you have less to decompose 18 when it is flooded. 19 Q. How does water depth by itself affect the 20 rate of decomposition? 21 A. It affects oxygen supply to the bottom, 22 and oxygen is a factor influencing oxidation for 23 decomposition. 24 Q. Can you relate that to me in terms of the 25 depth of the water, the less oxygen there is? 87 1 A. Yes, but it is influenced, complicated by 2 what's growing on the bottom in the light and 3 producing oxygen, but also uptaking oxygen. 4 Q. Lower concentrations of oxygen slow down 5 the rate of decomposition? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And there are various factors that can 8 attribute to lower or higher dissolved oxygen 9 concentrations in the water? 10 A. Photosynthesis can affect it, water depth. 11 Q. Any other factors? 12 A. The amount of organic matter since it uses 13 it up in its decomposition. 14 Q. Can you think of any other factors that 15 might influence it? 16 A. Influence the decomposition? 17 Q. Yes, or influence the dissolved oxygen 18 concentration which affects the decomposition rate? 19 A. Nutrients can affect the growth of plants, 20 which would affect both photosynthesis and can affect 21 the emergent plant material growth and dropping of 22 organic material into the water column. 23 Q. Turning now to page 60. "As Belanger and 24 Platko in 1986 have pointed out, the periphyton 25 community makes an important DO contribution to 88 1 shallow Everglades waters. Periphyton may be as 2 important for its role in providing oxygenated 3 habitat for aquatic animals as for its role in the 4 food web." 5 Do all periphytons play the same role in 6 contributing to the water columns? 7 A. I think so. 8 Q. Does that statement hold equally true for 9 the blue-greens and greens and desmids and diatoms? 10 A. Right. I think it is important where the 11 periphyton are growing or, for instance, periphyton 12 growing on the bottom will contribute more oxygen 13 throughout the water column than phytoplankton 14 growing within the water column, or something growing 15 like a coating, a slime or something on top of the 16 water column. 17 Q. What about the periphyton mat that's 18 typically found in the Everglades? 19 A. That's going to produce oxygen that's 20 going to bubble up throughout the water column, 21 supersaturated. 22 Q. Would you expect to see different 23 dissolved oxygen concentrations between one 24 environment that is predominantly with blue-greens 25 and another environment that was heavily predominated 89 1 -- let's say it has less blue-greens and more of the 2 greens and the diatoms? 3 A. Not because of the composition of the 4 periphyton, the biomass could make a difference. 5 Q. The biomass of the periphyton? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How can the biomass, distinct from the 8 composition, affect the dissolved oxygen 9 concentration? 10 A. Potentially, the greater the biomass, the 11 greater the photosynthesis. 12 Q. In other words, if you have -- 13 A. Unless you are photosynthesizing at 14 different rates by taxonomy, and I don't have any 15 information on that. 16 Q. So if you have a lot of periphyton in 17 there, you can have more photosynthesis and more 18 dissolved oxygen? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And, correspondingly, if you have little 21 in terms of biomass, lesser dissolved oxygen? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Turn to the last page, figure 16 of this 24 report. This graph indicates on the left-hand margin 25 or left-hand side dissolved oxygen in terms of 90 1 milligrams per liter. And then in the right, it is 2 over time, and you see fluctuations here, high 3 fluctuations in terms of the nonenriched site, and a 4 lower overall dissolved oxygen concentration in 5 dampened fluctuations in the enriched site. 6 Would you suppose from this graph and 7 based on what you just told me, that the enriched 8 site had a lower biomass of periphyton? 9 A. Either it had a lower biomass of 10 periphyton or it had an enormous additional biomass 11 of decomposing material. 12 Q. And that decomposing material, like dead 13 plants, would be pulling dissolved oxygen out of the 14 water? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. I want you to examine what was also 17 produced in 1991 entitled: Quantitative Comparison 18 of Periphyton as Food for Aquatic Animals in the 19 Southern Everglades. 20 That's Exhibit 6. 21 (Deposition Exhibit 6 was marked for 22 identification) 23 BY MR. HYDE: 24 Q. Were you again the primary author of this 25 document? 91 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who are Robert Pope and Peter Schroeder, 3 were they assistants of yours? 4 A. They were assisting me in the study, yes. 5 Q. For what purpose was this paper prepared? 6 A. It was sort of an update of an analysis of 7 data that I had collected earlier, in the early 8 1980s. 9 Q. Were you utilizing the same data then? 10 A. Yes, I was. 11 Q. Do you regard this paper as being 12 consistent with your earlier analysis, particularly 13 as it relates to periphyton as a food source? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you reach any different conclusions as 16 a result of this paper than were expressed in your 17 previous paper, I think of 1981? 18 A. I would say no, I didn't. 19 Q. In the abstract of this paper, which is 20 the second page of the document, you state: 21 "Blue-green algae were less well represented in 22 digestive tracts than in the environment; and diatoms 23 and green algae, particularly desmids, were better 24 represented in the digestive tracts than in the 25 environment." 92 1 Was this just a restatement of the results 2 that were in your earlier paper? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Similarly, the last paragraph of the 5 abstract reads: "Pilot-study results have water 6 management implications because previous studies have 7 suggested that shortened hydroperiods of nutrient 8 enrichment lead to near monocultures of blue-green 9 algae --" 10 A. I'm sorry, what page is that on? 11 Q. This is the abstract page. 12 A. The first page? 13 Q. Yes, the second full paragraph. 14 A. That "of" should be an "or." 15 Q. "That shortened hydroperiod or," okay. 16 So the phrase should read: "Pilot-study 17 results have water management implications because 18 previous studies have suggested that shortened 19 hydroperiods or nutrient enrichment leads to near 20 monocultures of blue-green algae, reducing the 21 proportion of diatoms and green algae in 22 periphyton."? 23 A. Yes. When I refer to "nutrient 24 enrichment," I am referring to David Swift's work. 25 Q. Other than David Swift's work, do you have 93 1 any basis for making that conclusion? 2 A. Well, I did, I believe I do have a 3 regressional relationship in my study that also 4 includes that. 5 Q. Where you have both a shortened 6 hydroperiod and nutrient enrichment, which has the 7 more dramatic impact on producing these monocultures 8 of blue-green algae? 9 MR. McGRATH: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: Shall I answer the question? 11 MR. HYDE: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: A shortened hydroperiod will 13 suppress the effect of the phosphorus, the nutrient 14 enrichment. 15 BY MR. HYDE: 16 Q. The next document I would like you to look 17 at is titled at the top of the page: Affidavit - 18 J.A. Browder. 19 That will be Exhibit 7. 20 (Deposition Exhibit 7 was marked for 21 identification) 22 BY MR. HYDE: 23 Q. Did you prepare this affidavit? 24 A. Would you let me read it, please? 25 Q. Sure. 94 1 (Pause) 2 A. I don't honestly remember the reason for 3 writing this, but I'm sure I did write it, and I 4 certainly signed it. 5 Q. Was this prepared for litigation? 6 A. I don't know. It doesn't say why it was 7 prepared, why I was asked to do it. 8 Q. The next document is Comments of Joan A. 9 Browder, Southeast Fisheries Center, and I gather it 10 to be a comments and recommendations concerning the 11 Everglades Nutrient Removal Project. 12 Do you recognize this document? This 13 should be Exhibit 8. 14 (Deposition Exhibit 8 was marked for 15 identification) 16 A. This cover sheet looks strange to me. I 17 wonder if this was written by somebody else from a 18 talk I gave. 19 Q. It could be. I think the cover page is 20 just a dividing section of a larger part, but do you 21 recognize the document which begins on the second 22 page? 23 A. I believe this is a talk that I gave, a 24 presentation I gave at a meeting in West Palm Beach. 25 Q. On page 3 of the document, you list 95 1 factors influential on periphyton photosynthesis 2 and/or calcite precipitation, and those factors are: 3 Water chemistry, water depth, hydroperiod, macrophyte 4 species, current and fire. 5 I think we have discussed the first 6 several, but we haven't discussed macrophyte species. 7 How do macrophyte species affect periphyton 8 photosynthesis? 9 A. They appear to affect the presence or 10 absence of periphyton, and there are some species 11 that seem to have periphyton associated with them and 12 a few species that seem to not have periphyton 13 associated with them, and those are listed in this 14 document here, No. 6. (Indicating) 15 Q. Exhibit 6? 16 A. Exhibit 6. 17 Q. Can you tell me where they appear in 18 Exhibit 6? 19 A. No, that's the wrong one, I don't mean 20 Exhibit 6, I mean Exhibit 5, and at the bottom of 21 page 11 is where it starts. 22 Q. This begins with the subheading: 23 Association with Macrophytes at the bottom of page 24 11? 25 A. Right. It mentions three species that are 96 1 not normally encrusted at the end of that paragraph. 2 Q. Bladderwort? 3 A. Yellow-flowered bladderwort -- 4 Q. Yellow-flowered bladderwort, pipewort, and 5 white water lily. 6 A. The purple-flowered bladderwort is 7 encrusted. 8 Q. The previous sentence indicates that 9 sawgrass, among others, is readily coated by 10 periphyton. What about cattails? 11 A. I think not. Very dense sawgrass and very 12 dense cattails probably would not be encrusted 13 because of the shading effect and maybe other 14 effects, but shading alone could cause it. 15 Q. Would you expect to find periphyton on 16 cattails? 17 A. Not dense cattails. 18 Q. What about the occasional cattail? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. But you still wouldn't expect to find it 21 on dense stands of any macrophyte? 22 A. Any emergent macrophyte. 23 Q. What do you mean by an "emergent 24 macrophyte"? 25 A. One that sticks its leaves up out of the 97 1 water. 2 Q. That's all due to the vegetative shading? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When you are talking about macrophytes as 5 being influential in periphyton photosynthesis, at 6 least in terms of sawgrass and cattails, you are 7 talking primarily about whether they are so dense 8 that they shade out the periphyton. Is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is there any other aspect of either 11 sawgrass or cattails that influences periphyton? 12 A. Not that I know of directly. 13 Q. Are there any indirect effects? 14 A. Not any effects of the macrophyte itself 15 on the periphyton itself that I know of. 16 Q. On page 3 of Exhibit 8 under the 17 subheading Macrophyte Species, the phrase "Ability to 18 extract CO2 from HC03." 19 What did you mean by that? 20 A. Let me come up to date where you are. I 21 don't see that. 22 MS. STARK: Page 3. 23 BY MR. HYDE: 24 Q. Subheading: Macrophyte Species, Exhibit 25 8. 98 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. What does that phrase "Ability to extract 3 CO2 from HCO3" mean? 4 A. Well, they will be affecting the water 5 chemistry, some species could affect the water 6 chemistry and the calcite precipitation. 7 Q. What species do that? 8 A. Blue-green algae. 9 Q. I think we are in a different period. I 10 think you are looking at the hydroperiod section. 11 A. Yes, I am, I am confused. 12 Q. I'm under the Macrophyte Section which is 13 just below it. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Then the third line below the Macrophyte 16 Species, the subheading is "Ability to extract CO2 17 from HCO3." 18 A. Right. This would be speaking of 19 submergent macrophytes. 20 Q. Well, how does this phenomenon occur then 21 with them? 22 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 23 question. 24 BY MR. HYDE: 25 Q. Let me see if I can ask the question in a 99 1 different way then. 2 You have indicated here that macrophyte 3 species influence periphyton photosynthesis and/or 4 calcite precipitation in a variety of factors under 5 the subheading? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Density, biomass, production, senescence 8 rate, growth form, and the third one is ability to 9 extract CO2 from HCO3. 10 A. Well, all the plants need CO2 to make 11 sugar in photosynthesis. Some plants are able to 12 take their CO2, extract it from the bicarbonate, 13 HCO3, in the water, so they have an additional source 14 of CO2 to make their sugars, and they affect the 15 water chemistry because extracting the CO2 from the 16 bicarbonate affects the water chemistry. 17 Q. And thereby affects the periphyton because 18 of the calcite? 19 A. Because of the calcite precipitation. 20 Q. What about that fourth category, 21 "production and release of soluble compounds by 22 living plants and decaying parts"? 23 A. Well, this is something I have been 24 talking about before. Emergent plants take their CO2 25 out of the air, and then they fall in the water and 100 1 decompose and release CO2. So they are having a very 2 different effect on the chemistry of the water than 3 the plants that grow in the water and extract their 4 CO2 from the water and release it to the water. The 5 emergents are adding CO2 to the water column 6 permanently. 7 Q. The next category beneath Macrophyte 8 Species is Current. 9 How does current influence periphyton 10 photosynthesis? 11 A. Well, it can move one set of water with 12 one set of properties from one place to another 13 place, and in that way, something could happen at the 14 second place that wouldn't ordinarily happen there 15 just with the water that was ordinarily on top of it. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. And that's really all I know about that. 18 Q. The last category there is Fire: Timing 19 and Intensity. 20 How does that affect periphyton 21 photosynthesis? 22 A. Well, my only information is from Van 23 Meter-Kasanof, and she observed that calcareous 24 blue-green periphyton colonized an area of Shark 25 Slough that had recently burned during a drought, and 101 1 before that, she had only found calcareous green 2 periphyton. So the fire seemed to cause colonization 3 by blue-greens. 4 Q. On page 7, there's a subheading called 5 Grazing? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Which I assume to mean feeding on the 8 periphyton by tadpoles and other small creature? 9 A. Feeding, yes. 10 Q. And the first sentence suggests that 11 "Fundamental ecological principles suggest that, in a 12 balanced ecosystem, grazing will promote rather than 13 retard periphyton coverage, photosynthesis, and 14 calcite precipitation because it will stimulate 15 energy flow through the system," citing Odum 1983? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Do you agree with that proposition? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is there any reason to disagree with the 20 proposition? 21 A. Well, the only qualifying factor is they 22 ate it all up. 23 Q. Good point. 24 If more grazing is occurring as a result 25 of, say, benthic invertebrates, tadpoles, you would 102 1 expect periphyton coverage, photosynthesis, and 2 calcite precipitation to be increased? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. HYDE: Let's take five or 10 minutes. 5 (Recess) 6 BY MR. HYDE: 7 Q. Doctor, my notes indicate that you have 8 developed a model for community dynamics of 9 periphyton in the Everglades. Have you done that? 10 A. Well, it is in here. (Indicating) 11 Q. Which document are you referring to? 12 A. This is No. 5. 13 Q. Could you point out to me where you have 14 discussed that in this paper? 15 A. Okay, let me, first of all, show you the 16 picture. 17 The picture is Figure 8, and let's see 18 where I discuss it. 19 Q. Maybe you could just describe to me how 20 this model works. I like models, they are readily 21 understandable to me. 22 A. Good. It is referred to on page 51, but I 23 think that's not the only place it is referred to. 24 Page 46, Classification of Periphyton 25 Types, that section I think is where the model is. I 103 1 am looking at two factors, what we could call the 2 dependent factors here, and one is the periphyton 3 composition and the other is the extent of 4 calcification, calcite encrustation of periphyton. 5 And this is to show how the three factors, 6 hydroperiod, hydroperiod and water depth being 7 correlates, and the degree of calcium carbonate 8 saturation in a phosphorus arrangement can affect the 9 composition of the periphyton and the degree of 10 encrustation, whether it is encrusted or not. 11 So up at the top we have the low-calcite 12 precipitation, down at the bottom we have the 13 calcareous, and calcareous periphyton is promoted by 14 short hydroperiods, a high degree of calcium 15 carbonate saturation, and low phosphorus enrichment, 16 low percent phosphorus. 17 Up at the top of the chart, it is 18 low-calcite precipitation, which is favored by long 19 hydroperiod or high phosphorus enrichment or a low 20 degree of calcium carbonate saturation, and I show 21 where on this chart you might find these different 22 dominated situations, with microcoleus dominating in 23 the phosphorus enriched situation of the higher 24 hydroperiod, longer hydroperiods, and there would be 25 no mat. 104 1 And the green-rich calcareous mat-forming 2 in periphytons could occur at intermediate degrees of 3 calcium carbonate saturation and hydroperiod, and the 4 same with the diatom-rich calcareous mat-forming 5 material. 6 Then the high dominated, Scytonema 7 dominated calcareous mat-forming algae promoted by 8 the short hydroperiods, a high degree of calcium 9 carbonate saturation. 10 Q. So you wouldn't associate Scytonema, for 11 example, with a high degree of phosphorus enrichment? 12 A. No, I wouldn't, but like I said before, I 13 think if you have a very short hydroperiod, it could 14 be phosphorus enriched or not and you wouldn't notice 15 it. 16 Q. Because the hydroperiod is masking 17 whatever the impacts are of the phosphorus? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Between the hydroperiod and depth and 20 phosphorus enrichment, you have "no mat" there. Why 21 is there no mat there? 22 A. For the microcoleus? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Because I think you have so much CO2 in 25 the water column, that you are not getting mat 105 1 formation. 2 Q. So too much CO2 is preventing the mat from 3 forming? 4 A. Yes, I think so. 5 Q. Why is that? 6 A. Because it is affecting the calcium 7 carbonate degree of saturation. 8 Q. Affecting the calcium carbonate formation? 9 A. Degree of saturation, the degree of 10 saturation with respect to calcium carbonate. 11 Q. What is causing the higher CO2 in that 12 circumstance? 13 A. It could be a high amount of organic 14 material decomposing on the bottom. 15 Q. Does the depth of the water have any 16 relationship to that as well? 17 A. Well, it could, yes. 18 Q. To that as well? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How? 21 A. Because it would retard the release, the 22 diffusion of the CO2, and it would be promoting the 23 growth of the emergent vegetation. 24 Q. Such as sawgrass and cattails? 25 A. Right. 106 1 Q. In that circumstance, it doesn't really 2 matter whether it is sawgrass or cattails, would that 3 be correct? 4 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 5 question. 6 You may answer it. 7 THE WITNESS: If it is dense emergent 8 vegetation, that alone might be causing that 9 situation. It is possible that cattails, though, 10 decomposes more readily than sawgrass, and I believe 11 that's the case. 12 BY MR. HYDE: 13 Q. Do you have an opinion as to what the 14 causative agent is for cattails predominating in an 15 area as opposed to, say, sawgrass? 16 A. I have material that we presented in this 17 document about the occurrence of sawgrass in the 18 upper portion of Conservation Area 2 A that suggests 19 that the cattails stands were related to the high 20 phosphorus concentration in the canal water. 21 Q. Do you consider yourself an expert in 22 cattail physiology? 23 A. No, I don't. 24 Q. So in that respect, you were relying on 25 whatever information that's been provided to you? 107 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Where in this model would you place a 3 background Everglades National Park area? 4 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 5 question. 6 BY MR. HYDE: 7 Q. Do you understand my question? 8 A. A background area? 9 Q. Yes, that is, a relatively pristine, 10 natural background area in terms of where it would 11 fit in this model? 12 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 13 question. 14 BY MS. HYDE: 15 Q. You may answer. Figure 8, I think. 16 A. Along here. (Indicating) 17 Q. Basically at the middle of the page, over 18 by the notation "Green-rich Calcareous Mat-forming" 19 and "Diatom-rich Calcareous Mat-forming"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And doing your research for your 1981 22 study, did you find areas that were characteristic of 23 some of these other categories, such as the top of 24 the page, "Desmid-rich No Mat"? 25 A. No, I didn't. That would be the one that 108 1 the research by Pat Gleason shows. My work was 2 basically from this middle of the page down. 3 (Indicating) 4 Q. I see. 5 Do you know where Mr. Gleason's work was 6 concentrated? 7 A. In Conservation Area 1. 8 Q. That's the South Florida environment? 9 A. In the middle of it, in the middle of 10 Conservation Area 1. 11 Q. He didn't find a periphyton mat there? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. Do you know whether he was examining 14 nutrient-enriched waters, or, for lack of a better 15 term, background -- 16 A. Background. 17 Q. Background water, okay. 18 Where would Dave Swift's work fit on this 19 model? 20 A. It would fit from the middle of the page 21 up. Swift didn't look at the desmid-rich 22 environment, he would be looking at these other two 23 items. (Indicating) 24 Q. So he would be looking at hydroperiod and 25 depth and phosphorus enrichment gradients, I guess? 109 1 In other words, he was looking at phosphorus 2 enrichment? 3 A. I may be wrong, excuse me. He may have 4 looked at that desmid-rich site. 5 (Pause) 6 A. I believe he might have because he had the 7 list of species for different types of environments. 8 Let me see. 9 (Pause) 10 A. Yes, he covered all of it. 11 MR. HYDE: This should be Exhibit 9. 12 (Deposition Exhibit 9 was marked for 13 identification) 14 BY MR. HYDE: 15 Q. I would like to call your attention to a 16 document labeled Exhibit 9, which is a letter dated 17 December 22, 1989 to John Wodraska from you with some 18 attachments as well. 19 First of all, do you recognize this 20 letter? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you prepared it, I take it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. On the fourth page of this document -- 25 A. They are not numbered. 110 1 Q. No, they don't appear to be. 2 The numbered paragraph 1 reads: "Water 3 quality problems are interrelated with water quantity 4 problems, and water quantity problems and solutions 5 must be addressed in the SWIM Plan." 6 When you made this comment, were you 7 referring to earlier drafts of the SWIM Plan, and by 8 that I mean prior to the adopted one? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you regard those earlier drafts 11 failures to address water quantity as being a 12 problem? 13 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 14 question. 15 You can answer. 16 BY MR. HYDE: 17 Q. Or shortcomings. 18 MR. McGRATH: I join in it. 19 BY MR. HYDE: 20 Q. Let me back up and start over. 21 Did the earlier drafts of the SWIM Plan 22 deal with water quantity as well as water quality? 23 A. I think it did deal with water quantity 24 some in the establishment of the buffer areas. 25 Q. Did you regard those earlier draft 111 1 treatments of water quantity to be inadequate? 2 A. This was a good element. It has been a 3 long time since I reviewed this, and it is very hard 4 for me to answer these questions. 5 Q. Well, my reading of this statement here 6 implies to me at least that you felt that there was 7 some shortcomings in the drafts that were in 8 existence at that time in terms of how they addressed 9 water quantity problems. Is that a fair surmise on 10 my part? 11 A. It may be, but it also could be that I am 12 reinforcing something about the plan, and I'm not 13 certain because I think I would have to look at the 14 plan again to tell you. 15 Q. Have you examined in any detail the 16 adopted Everglades SWIM Plan? 17 A. I have looked at it. 18 Q. Do you know whether it examines or 19 addresses these issues of water quantity? 20 A. I don't think it addresses water quantity. 21 Q. Do you regard that omission as a 22 shortcoming in the plan? 23 A. You know, before I can comment on the 24 plan, I would want to go back and read it. 25 MR. McGRATH: I would object. Obviously 112 1 the deposition is not a quiz of this witness's memory 2 of something that we haven't even established how 3 long ago she may have looked at it or with what 4 degree of thoroughness she looked at it. So if the 5 plan is here, if you want to ask her questions about 6 it, let her review it. 7 MR. HYDE: I guess we could do that, but 8 as you all know, this is a very long document and we 9 could spend the next three days sitting in here while 10 you read it. It has taken me days to read it. I am 11 just simply trying to find out what her knowledge is 12 about something, and if she doesn't feel comfortable 13 with answering the question, that's fine, but I 14 thought it was a fair question. 15 She did indicate that she had read it, and 16 she did indicate also that it didn't appear to 17 address water quantity, and I am just asking a 18 follow-up to that, whether that's a shortcoming. 19 MS. STARK: Is there a question on the 20 floor? 21 BY MR. HYDE: 22 Q. The question is, is that a shortcoming in 23 your mind? 24 MS. STARK: I will object to the form of 25 the question. 113 1 BY MR. HYDE: 2 Q. If you don't want to answer it or care not 3 to answer it, just tell me why and that's fine, we 4 will go on to something else. 5 A. I think water quantity is an important 6 question and an important thing to solve. 7 Q. Turning to the first page of your specific 8 comments, the page after your signature. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. On the top of the page, Specific Comments, 11 which relates to page 59 paragraph 3, is the 12 statement: "In this paragraph it should be stated 13 that water quality is strongly affected by the 14 management of water quantity, and water quality 15 problems cannot be adequately addressed in the 16 Everglades SWIM Plan without addressing water 17 quantity management." 18 Do you continue to subscribe to that view? 19 MS. STARK: Let me object to the form of 20 the question and request that you show her page 59, 21 paragraph 3. 22 MR. McGRATH: I would join. 23 MR. HYDE: I don't have the document with 24 me. We can take a break and get it, but I don't 25 think it is necessary. I'm just asking her if she 114 1 agrees. I don't think it is necessary that I pull 2 out the document. 3 MS. STARK: I think it is critical because 4 the first part of this question is "In this 5 paragraph, it should be stated." So I think she has 6 to review the paragraph. 7 MR. McGRATH: I would object. It would 8 tend to be misleading or confusing without knowing 9 the context in which this comment was written. 10 MR. HYDE: Okay. We will take a break. 11 (Recess) 12 BY MR. HYDE: 13 Q. I will ask the question independent of the 14 SWIM Plan. 15 Do you believe that water quality is 16 affected by the management of water quantity? 17 A. I think -- yes, I do. 18 Q. Do you think that water quality problems 19 can be addressed if you don't address water quantity 20 management? 21 A. Yes, I think you can address it. 22 Q. You think you can adequately address them? 23 MR. McGRATH: Objection to form. 24 THE WITNESS: Shall I go ahead? 25 MS. STARK: If you understand the 115 1 question. It was a little confusing. 2 THE WITNESS: To some extent you can 3 address water quality by where you direct the water, 4 whether you direct it in overland flow or whether you 5 direct it down canal, because over land, vegetation 6 will take up contaminants and nutrients, and in the 7 canal, they won't, or they will do so less, so how 8 you direct the water affects water quality. 9 And if you do solve water quantity 10 problems and make longer hydroperiods, you will have 11 probably more effect of nutrients, of phosphorus, 12 more eutrophication expressed because the short 13 hydroperiods are controlling the expression of 14 eutrophication. 15 I mentioned before that if water is 16 limiting, then putting in a limiting nutrient isn't 17 affecting it because it is already affected by not 18 having water, and also in the shorter hydroperiod 19 environment, you get more calcite precipitation and 20 phosphorus precipitating with the calcite. 21 BY MR. HYDE: 22 Q. Is it fair to say that water quantity and 23 water quality are inextricably intertwined? 24 A. They are intertwined. 25 MR. HYDE: There should be a document 116 1 around here, a letter dated April 9, 1993, I think it 2 was one of the documents that I got this morning. 3 MS. STARK: Systems model -- 4 MR. HYDE: No, this is it, April 9th, 5 1993. 6 This will be Exhibit 10. 7 (Deposition Exhibit 10 was marked for 8 identification) 9 BY MR. HYDE: 10 Q. Do you recognize the document that's been 11 labeled Exhibit 10? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you prepare Exhibit 10? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. For what purpose did you prepare it? 16 A. I was asked to attend a SAGE meeting to 17 answer questions, and after the questions I had time 18 to think of them, so I wrote Peter this note. 19 Q. The second full paragraph, the first 20 sentence indicates as follows: Brown and Caldwell 21 may have underestimated the filtration capacity 22 needed to reduce phosphorus concentrations to 23 allowable levels in waters released to the WCAs." 24 What were you referring to there? 25 A. I was referring to their presentation of 117 1 the chemical filtration, of technology that they 2 reviewed. 3 Q. Was this being proposed as a possible 4 alternative to the storm water treatment area 5 concept? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. Why do you think they underestimated that 8 filtration capacity? 9 A. I think they may have assumed that the 10 phosphorus concentrations were constant regardless of 11 the flow rate, and they can vary according to flow 12 rate, particularly when organic soils are involved. 13 Q. Were you able to determine whether they 14 did make that assumption? 15 A. No, I never had any response to my letter. 16 Q. What would be wrong about the analysis if 17 they did, indeed, make such an assumption? 18 A. Well, the very times they would be 19 bypassing the filtration capacity would be the times 20 when they would have the higher phosphorus 21 concentrations, and they wouldn't be producing water 22 with the phosphorus concentrations that they estimate 23 that would meet standards. 24 Q. In the second page, the third full 25 paragraph, you question whether the direct filtration 118 1 process might introduce new contaminants while 2 removing phosphorus? 3 A. Right, because I don't know what 4 impurities might be -- they didn't know, I don't 5 think, and I just asked them to look into what 6 impurities might be present with this ferric iron 7 that they might get from DuPont. 8 Q. Was there any concern about whether this 9 filtration process might also remove needed 10 constituents in the water as well as phosphorus? 11 A. That was proposed by someone else, by Ron 12 Jones, I believe. 13 Q. Do you have any views in that regard? 14 A. Well, I don't know enough about it to 15 comment on it. 16 Q. Now, my document seems to be missing a 17 page. 18 A. Which one? 19 Q. This exhibit -- 20 A. Yes, my exhibit is missing a page, page 4 21 is missing. 22 MS. STARK: That's the way we got it. 23 MR. HYDE: To make the record complete, do 24 you think you can try to find the full page and 25 provide it to Ms. Stark? 119 1 THE WITNESS: Sure, I better have it. 2 MR. HYDE: I'm not sure there's anything 3 that would concern me, but I just want to have a 4 complete record. 5 BY MR. HYDE: 6 Q. Dr. Browder, were you ever a member of a 7 body known as the SWIM Advisory Committee? 8 A. For the Everglades? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. I think I was. 11 Q. What was the function of that committee? 12 A. To guide the development of the SWIM Plan. 13 Q. Were you an active participant in that 14 process? 15 A. I don't remember that committee very well. 16 Was that headed by Nat Reid? 17 Q. I don't know. 18 THE WITNESS: Do you know? 19 MS. STARK: You can't ask a question. 20 THE WITNESS: I can't? 21 MS. STARK: No. 22 THE WITNESS: That particular committee 23 was not very -- well, I don't remember. 24 BY MR. HYDE: 25 Q. What about a scientific advisory panel? 120 1 A. TAC? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Yes, I was a member of that. 4 Q. During what period of time? 5 A. I'm sorry. 6 Q. Do you remember roughly? 7 A. The mid-'80s. 8 MR. HYDE: Let's take about a five-minute 9 break, and I think we can finish up shortly. 10 MS. STARK: Okay. 11 (Recess) 12 BY MR. HYDE: 13 Q. I would like to ask you just a few more 14 questions about periphyton, however. During your 15 presentation to the Everglades symposium back in 1991 16 -- I think it was in '91? 17 A. '89. 18 MR. McGRATH: November '89. 19 BY MR. HYDE: 20 Q. Excuse me, the presentation to the 21 scientific advisory panel for the DNR project, you 22 were talking about periphyton and you made the 23 following observation: 24 "Periphyton plays several prominent roles 25 in the ecology of the Everglades. Along with the 121 1 detritus of higher plants, the algae and periphyton 2 form the base of the Everglades food chain. They 3 make up a large part of the diet of such creatures as 4 Crayfish, apple snails and grass shrimp, which feed 5 many other higher organisms, and this just gives you 6 an idea of the food web that leads to higher 7 organisms from the periphyton, leading -- going all 8 the way to wading birds and alligators and largemouth 9 bass. " 10 A. I had a picture and I was speaking -- 11 MS. STARK: Wait until there's a question. 12 BY MR. HYDE: 13 Q. Do you remember making comments to that 14 effect? And I can show you the transcript if you 15 would like to see it. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know what portion of the diet of 18 those creatures periphyton comprises? 19 A. Yes, roughly. 20 Q. Give me a ballpark figure. 21 MS. STARK: Objection to the form of the 22 question. You may answer. 23 THE WITNESS: Those particular are half to 24 all. 25 BY MR. HYDE: 122 1 Q. Do you know what kind of periphyton they 2 are eating? 3 A. Well, those are the ones that we did the 4 analyses that appeared to be eating more heavily on 5 the diatoms and the greens relative to their volume 6 and environment. 7 Q. Are there other creatures that dine more 8 heavily on the blue-greens, for example? 9 A. There were a few that we looked at that 10 didn't seem to select the diatoms and greens as 11 significantly. 12 Q. What studies or analyses reflect what the 13 eating habits are of these species of Crayfish, Apple 14 Snails and Grass Shrimp? 15 A. Which of my studies? 16 Q. Yes, do your studies address that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Which one is that? 19 A. I think it is item 6, Exhibit 6. 20 Q. Okay. 21 Q. What species of animals were examined in 22 this Exhibit 6 study in terms of the their feeding 23 habits? 24 A. I'm sure I have a list here somewhere. 25 The ones we caught were in Table 1, and we 123 1 looked into the stomachs of all of them, and they 2 were all eating some algae except Golden Topminnow, 3 Bluefin Killifish and Sunfish species. 4 All the others on this list were eating 5 some periphyton, and that would be Flagfish, Sailfin 6 Molly, Least Killifish, Crayfish, amphipods, Apple 7 Snails and the tadpoles. Apparently we didn't look 8 at the tadpole's stomach. Maybe for some reason it 9 was not possible, maybe it was empty, but we did look 10 at the tadpoles in that other study. So on page 2 -- 11 I mean Table 2, you can see which ones were eating 12 algae. 13 Q. Does Table 3 reflect in any respect how 14 much of the types of periphyton are being consumed by 15 these various species? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Where does that do so? 18 A. In the first column. 19 Q. For the Least Killifish at Site 1, 20 December -- this is in Table 3 -- the first page of 21 Table 3, the Least Killifish for blue-greens were 22 97.3? 23 A. That was in the environment. 24 Q. In the environment, I see. 25 A. In the gut -- 124 1 Q. Was 6.2? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Whereas in their environment, the green 4 was 0.2, yet it was 33.7 in the stomach? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That suggests to me even where there's 7 very small amounts, these Killifish are getting the 8 greens out of the environment, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, the Mosquitofish seems to eat a lot 11 of the blue-green, doesn't it? 12 A. In August. 13 Q. In August. 14 A. But in December it wasn't. It was eating 15 something different in December. 16 Q. Well, in December, the figures only add up 17 to 37 percent. 18 A. There must be an error there, there must 19 be an error. They don't necessarily have to add up 20 to exactly a hundred percent. 21 Q. Couldn't they be eating things other than 22 algae? 23 A. No, this is just the algae. 24 Q. I see. 25 A. This is an error, but they don't have to 125 1 add up to exactly a hundred percent because of 2 conversion errors, round-off and things like that, 3 but it shouldn't be that bad. I think that's 4 supposed to be -- well, I won't try to guess. 5 Q. It seems, though, at some times of the 6 year the Mosquitofish eat a lot of blue-greens and at 7 other times they don't? 8 A. That's right. I discussed that in my 9 text. 10 Q. I guess the same would be true of Flagfish 11 and Sailfin Mollies? 12 A. Well, I don't know. Yes -- well -- do I 13 have a Flagfish in both seasons? 14 Q. No, I guess not. 15 A. And do I have Sailfin Molly in both 16 seasons? 17 Q. Both for the Flagfish and Sailfin Molly, a 18 good bit of the periphyton in their guts was 19 blue-green, wasn't it? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Under the Crayfish listing, you have just 22 an X. Does that mean nothing? 23 A. Well, because what we saw was in their 24 stomachs, not in their gut. We separated the stomach 25 from the gut, and sometimes we had information for 126 1 both, sometimes there wasn't any information, nothing 2 in one or the other of them, so we just used what we 3 had. 4 Q. Well, when you look at the Crayfish, you 5 see about 73 percent, close to 74 percent of the 6 periphyton in their stomach was a blue-green stuff? 7 A. Right. 96 percent in the environment was 8 blue-green. 9 Q. But that would indicate to me that they 10 are thriving in that environment, on the blue-green, 11 correct? 12 A. Well, I don't know about "thriving," they 13 are eating it. 14 Q. And the last page, the Apple Snail 15 environment is 97.1 percent, and in their gut it was 16 89.5 percent? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. So they, too, were eating the blue-green? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. If fact, for all of these species, at 21 least for some point of their year, a part of their 22 diet is blue-green periphyton, isn't it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How do you account for the seasonal 25 variation? 127 1 A. The Mosquitofish probably have more 2 insects to eat in the summer than in December. 3 Q. I hope so. 4 A. And that affects, may affect what they 5 need for the rest of their diet. 6 Q. What about the Least Killifish, you have 7 two seasons there. There's a big fluctuation in 8 terms of the blue-green gut content? 9 A. Right, they seem to be really selecting 10 the desmids, eating a lot of desmids in December, but 11 not so much so -- there's two different sites, they 12 are doing something a little differently at the two 13 sites. 14 Q. Okay, I see. 15 Could that be because the desmids might be 16 relatively more abundant at one site? 17 A. Yes, apparently there were hardly any 18 desmids at one of the sites, it just says a trace. 19 Q. But even at the first site? 20 A. There weren't many. They seemed to be 21 going after them. 22 MR. HYDE: That's all. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 THE COURT REPORTER: Do you want to order 25 the transcript, counsel? 128 1 MR. HYDE: We will order the transcript. 2 MS. STARK: Yes, and we will reserve the 3 reading. 4 (Witness excused) 5 (Thereupon, at 5:00 p.m., 6 the deposition was concluded) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 1 EXCEPT FOR THE CORRECTION MADE 2 HEREIN BY ME, I CERTIFY THAT 3 THIS IS A TRUE AND 4 ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT 5 6 _______________________________ 7 JOAN A. BROWDER 8 9 STATE OF FLORIDA) 10 ) SS: 11 COUNTY OF DADE ) 12 13 Sworn and subscribed to before me, this 14 day of , 1992. _______ _________ 15 16 ___________________________ 17 Notary Public in and for 18 the State of Florida at 19 Large 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 2 3 The State of Florida ) 4 County of Dade ) 5 6 We, the undersigned authority, certify 7 that JOAN A. BROWDER personally appeared before us 8 and was duly sworn. 9 10 WITNESS our hands and official seal this 11 day of , 1993. 12 13 14 15 ________________________________ 16 BARNET I. ABRAMOWITZ, CSR-CM 17 Notary Public - State of Florida 18 My Commission No. CC 097881 19 Expires: April 10, 1995 20 21 THOMAS NEUMANN 22 Notary Public - State of Florida 23 24 25 131 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF DADE ) 3 We, Thomas Neumann and Barnet I. 4 Abramowitz, Professional court reporters, do hereby certify that we were authorized to and did report 5 said deposition in stenotype; and that the foregoing pages, numbered from 1 to 129, inclusive, are a true 6 and correct transcription of my shorthand notes of said deposition. 7 I further certify that we are not 8 attorneys or counsel of any of the parties, nor are we relatives or employees of any attorney or counsel 9 connected with the action, nor are we financially interested in the action. 10 The foregoing certification of this 11 transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means unless under the direct control 12 and/or direction of the certifying reporter. 13 Dated this day of , 1993. 14 _______________________ Barnet I. Abramowitz, CSR-CM 15 Thomas Neumann 16 The State of Florida) County of Dade ) 17 The foregoing certificate was acknowledged 18 before me this day of , 1993, _______ ________________ by Barnet I. Abramowitz and Thomas Neumann, who are 19 personally known to me. 20 _________________________ 21 Notary Public - State of Florida Commission No. CC 030636 22 My Commission expires: July 17, 1994 23 24 25 ??