1
1 DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION, STATE OF FLORIDA
2
3 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE )
OF FLORIDA; ROTH FARMS, INC., and )
4 WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., )
Petitioners, ) DOAH Case No. 92-3038
5 v. )
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
6 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
of Florida; et al., )
7 Respondents. )
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8 FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.; )
UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION; )
9 and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., )
Petitioners, )
10 v. ) DOAH Case No. 92-3039
SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
11 DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
of Florida; et al., )
12 Respondents. )
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13 FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE )
ASSOCIATION; LEWIS POPE FARMS; )
14 W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., )
and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., )
15 Petitioners, )
v. ) DOAH Case No. 92-3040
16 SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT )
DISTRICT, an agency of the State )
17 of Florida; et al., )
Respondents. )
18 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
100 S.E. 2nd Street
19 Miami, Florida
July 1, 1993
20 10:00 a.m. - 4:45 p.m.
21 DEPOSITION OF JOAN BROWDER
22 Taken before THOMAS R. NEUMANN and BARNET
I. ABRAMOWITZ, Registered Professional Reporter and
23 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at
Large, pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition filed
24 in the above cause.
- - - - - - -
25
2
1 APPEARANCES
2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF
3 KATHY STARK, ESQ.
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY
4 155 South Miami Avenue
Miami, Florida 33130
5
ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS CITY OF BELLE GLADE
6 AND CITY OF CLEWISTON
7 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK, P.A.
One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636
8 Two South Biscayne Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33131
9 BY: BILL HYDE, ESQ.
10 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT
11 POPHAM, HAIK, SCHNOBRICH & KAUFMANN, LTD.
4000 International Place
12 100 S.E. Second Street
Miami, Florida 33131
13 BY: DANIEL J. McGRATH, ESQ.
14 INDEX
Witness Direct Cross Redirect Recross
15 JOAN BROWDER
By Mr. Hyde 3
16
EXHIBITS
17 NUMBER PAGE
1 Notice of Taking Deposition 5
18 2 Dr. Browder's Curriculum Vitae 10
3 Report T-643 32
19 4 Comparison of Laboratory Growth 66
of Hyla Squirella Tadpoles on
20 Everglades Periphyton
5 Periphyton in the Everglades;Spacial 72
21 Variations, Environmental Correlates,
etc, 1991
22 6 Quantitative Comparison of Periphyton 90
in Food for Aquatic Animals in
23 Everglades
7 Affidavit of J.A. Browder 93
24 8 Comments of Browder Southeast Fish. 94
9 Letter dated 12/22/89 109
25 10 Letter dated 4/9/93 116
3
1 Thereupon --
2 JOAN BROWDER
3 was called as a witness and, having been first duly
4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. HYDE:
7 Q. Would you please state your name for the
8 record.
9 A. Joan Browder. Joan Arrington Browder is my
10 full name.
11 Q. Should it be Dr. Browder?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Dr. Browder, what is your current address?
14 A. 11550 Southwest 108th Court.
15 Q. Is that a residential address?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is your work address, please?
18 A. 75 Virginia Beach Drive.
19 Q. That's Miami, Florida?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Dr. Browder, by whom are you employed?
22 A. The Southeast Fishery Center of the
23 National Marine Fisheries Service, which is a part of
24 NOAA, which is a part of the U.S. Department of
25 Commerce.
4
1 Q. Dr. Browder, I'm going to be asking you a
2 series of questions concerning some litigation
3 pending before the division of administrative
4 hearings styled Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative of
5 Florida et al. versus the South Florida Water
6 Management District et al., specifically concerning
7 your involvement or knowledge of matters that are
8 related to that litigation?
9 MS. STARK: Not to break your flow, but the
10 United States would like to place on record the
11 fact Dr. Browder is not listed as an expert in
12 this case for any of the various things in that
13 litigation. So as you proceed we will be
14 watching for opinion type things that might
15 cause us a problem.
16 MR. HYDE: Your comment is so noted. We
17 have however listed her as a potential witness
18 for this proceeding.
19 BY MR. HYDE:
20 Q. If you don't understand any question that I
21 pose to you please tell me and I will try to rephrase
22 it. If you don't question my question then I'll
23 assume you understand what I'm asking you and that
24 you are attempting to be responsive to the question.
25 A. Okay.
5
1 Q. If Mr. McGrath or anyone else objects at
2 any point I suggest you stop talking at that moment
3 and let the attorneys work out the objection.
4 In most instances it will not mean that you
5 are precluded from answering any further. However,
6 there may be instances where Ms. Stark will instruct
7 you not to answer. Understood?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Dr. Browder, I would like to start off with
10 a couple of documents before you. I would like to
11 have them labeled Composite Exhibit 1. They are your
12 Notice of Taking Deposition Duces Tecum and attached
13 or next to it is a Renotice of Taking Deposition
14 Duces Tecum.
15 Have you seen these documents before?
16 (The documents referred to were thereupon
17 marked Exhibit 1 for Identification.)
18 A. I received a fax of one of these. They
19 look so similar. I don't know what the difference
20 is.
21 Q. I think the second one is just a variation
22 of the time.
23 I would like to call your attention to the
24 first one, the Notice of Taking Deposition and have
25 you turn to numbered page 7 of that document.
6
1 On this page beginning with numbered
2 paragraph 1 there is a category of documents to be
3 produced.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Have you reviewed this section of the
6 notice?
7 A. Yes, but briefly. Yes, I have.
8 Q. Did you go through these items one by one
9 to produce documents that were responsive to each of
10 these requests?
11 A. Well, I have already given my documents to
12 the U.S. Attorney's office, so they were on record.
13 Q. I understand that you may have given your
14 documents to the U.S. Attorneys office, but I would
15 like to take you through these numbered items here to
16 insure that we covered each and every one of them.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. I'm not going to read them out to you. I
19 would like you to read each one as we go through it
20 and you just simply tell me whether or not you
21 provided all of the documents responsive to that
22 particular item.
23 No. 1?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. No. 2?
7
1 A. Right. I don't think I have anything.
2 Q. Just for purposes of the record you should
3 probably say yes or no the court reporter. They
4 sometimes have difficulty ascertaining head shakes or
5 uh-huh?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. No. 3?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. No. 4?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. No. 5?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. No. 6?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. No. 7?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. No. 8?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. No. 9?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. 10?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Maybe just to speed this along, skim over
24 the remainder and tell me if you have done all of
25 these things?
8
1 A. I would say I have done everything for 12,
2 13 and 14.
3 I would say I never provided my raw field
4 notes and all the information data and so forth from
5 those old studies.
6 Q. Would those field notes be available?
7 A. Probably.
8 Q. I don't think I would question you about
9 them today.
10 Do you have any objection to producing them
11 for copying?
12 A. No, I don't. It's just a whole lot of
13 paper.
14 Q. Perhaps you can describe to me what these
15 field notes are?
16 A. Just the raw data, the data that was used
17 in the analysis and the reports or analysis of the
18 data.
19 Q. In what format are they kept?
20 A. Pencil. And I suppose there are some
21 computer discs with data on them also.
22 Q. Well, we would like to be able to examine
23 them if you could just put them together in a box or
24 two or however much it took so we can take a look at
25 them. Would that be okay?
9
1 A. Okay.
2 MR. HYDE: Do you have any problems with
3 that, Kathy?
4 MS. STARK: I don't think so. Obviously
5 subject to availability. Lots of reports are
6 from 1980, '81
7 MR. HYDE: I understand that. I'm talking
8 about documents currently in the files. You
9 can't produce what you don't have.
10 BY MR. HYDE:
11 Q. Did you check out items 15, 16, 17 on the
12 following pages?
13 A. Yes. I think I brought that.
14 Q. That would hold true for all three items?
15 A. Yes, that is right.
16 MR. HYDE: Off the record.
17 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken,
18 after which the following proceedings
19 were had.)
20 BY MR. HYDE:
21 Q. Dr. Browder, I would like to call your
22 attention to your CV dated April 1993. We will mark
23 that Exhibit 2?
24 I would like to take you first through your
25 educational experience beginning with your college
10
1 degree. Your CV indicates you obtained a BS in
2 Biology from Miami in 1970; is that correct?
3 (The document referred to was thereupon
4 marked Exhibit 2 for Identification.)
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was there some special concentration in
7 obtaining that degree?
8 A. Well, ecology.
9 Q. Wetlands ecology or ecology generally?
10 A. Ecology generally.
11 Q. What would an ecology specialization
12 entail? In obtaining such a degree what kind of
13 courses would you take?
14 A. If you turn over to page -- the last page,
15 maybe we might get an idea of that. The Ecology,
16 Evolution and Systematics, I took that. I took
17 Genetics. I took Ornithology, Plant Taxonomy. I
18 took Advanced Marine Ecology, Developmental Biology,
19 Biogeography, General Physiology.
20 Q. The remaining of those things listed there?
21 A. Yes. But I don't have it separated into
22 what I was taking for the courses I took for my
23 Master's work. So let's see if I can tell from the
24 numbers.
25 Probably the 500 and 600 numbers were the
11
1 ones for the Master's degree. It's a basic core
2 course in biology with perhaps some of them being
3 electives that I chose to take because of my
4 interests.
5 Q. Did you do a thesis in support of your B.S.
6 degree?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Tell me about your M.S. degree in biology
9 from the University of Miami, what did that entail?
10 A. Well, these courses, the 500 and 600, are
11 those courses and my Master's -- I did a Master's
12 thesis. It was on cattle egrets. It was a
13 statistical study relating the length of the bones of
14 cattle egrets to the foods in their stomachs.
15 Q. I'll let that one go by. What did you
16 conclude as a result of your thesis?
17 A. The larger birds were eating larger bugs --
18 not bugs. They were mainly eating grasshoppers and
19 wolf spiders, and I had a number of ancillary
20 conclusions about that. They were mainly feeding off
21 of cryptic grasshoppers.
22 The collection that I looked at had been
23 collected from Henry County, a wetland area in Henry
24 County.
25 Q. There is a three year gap between obtaining
12
1 your B.S. degree and your M.S. degree?
2 A. Two and a half.
3 Q. Is that a customary length of time for
4 obtaining an M.S. degree?
5 A. In biology.
6 Q. Were you also working at that time as a lab
7 assistant or otherwise?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. For whom did you work. Was it at the
10 university?
11 A. Yes. I was a lab assistant for the
12 developmental biology lab, and I was a lab assistant
13 for the general biology lab, I guess. I thought
14 maybe I could find the name here because I had to
15 take it myself.
16 Q. You subsequently, I guess, moved to
17 Gainesville and obtained a Ph.D. in Environmental
18 Engineering; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Describe that degree to me. What did it
21 entail?
22 A. It entailed taking courses, and those
23 courses are pretty much the courses that are listed
24 here under environmental engineering system, ecology
25 and modeling on page 14. It involved doing field
13
1 research and analysis in ecological modeling and
2 writing the dissertation.
3 Q. What was your dissertation?
4 A. Water wetlands and woodstorks.
5 Q. If you could, provide to me a summary
6 description of what "environmental engineering" is?
7 A. Well, let's see. It's in the curriculum in
8 the schools. It involves systems ecology and water
9 quality studies, analysis and studies, and
10 meteorology and hydrology and usually some analytical
11 courses, and there is a journal called Environmental
12 Engineering. It often takes up things like
13 restoration of wetland and cleaning effluent waters
14 like sewage water, waste water treatment of various
15 types. There is the type that's done in plants.
16 There is the type that's done using the landscape
17 vegetation managed systems.
18 Q. What school at the University of Florida
19 gave you your degree, then?
20 A. School of Engineering.
21 Q. Would this degree be something with which
22 you could obtain a professional engineering license
23 in the State of Florida?
24 A. Well, you take tests to get professional
25 engineering degrees and that was not my interest. So
14
1 I didn't pursue that route, but I could have, I
2 guess.
3 Q. Tell me a bit more about your thesis on
4 wetland and woodstorks. What did you conclude as a
5 result of that thesis?
6 A. I concluded that changing the hydrology of
7 the area of southwest Florida with a great many
8 canals influenced the reproductive success and
9 recruitment of the woodstork population that nested
10 at Corkscrew Swamp sanctuary.
11 Q. How did you go about conducting this study,
12 in general terms, of course?
13 A. Well, I did a water model and I did a
14 ecosystem model that was linked to the output of the
15 water model. My water model was under two
16 conditions. The first condition was the primitive
17 condition with none of the canals in the system. And
18 the other condition was the present condition with
19 all of the canals in the system. I used the same set
20 of rainfall, 20 years of rainfall. I think it was 25
21 years of rainfall.
22 The model was constructed so that there was
23 surface storage and ground storage. When the ground
24 storage filled up the surface storage filled up. As
25 the surface storage filled up based on a rough
15
1 approximate formation of the sort of generalized
2 contours of -- bottom contours, the basins filled up
3 and the water spread out over the land. And
4 evapotransporation took water away and caused the
5 water to decline. As the water filled up to certain
6 levels it spilled over to surface runoffs. It
7 infiltrated also and there was ground water flow.
8 Fresh water run-off to the estuaries was produced.
9 That took water away from the land.
10 I was primarily looking at the expansion
11 and contraction of water area. That drove my
12 ecosystem model and my -- the fish in the marsh, in
13 the ponds ate and grew and expanded over the marshes
14 when the area -- as the area became flooded the
15 fishes expanded in their biomass. And when the
16 surface water area shrank the fish became
17 concentrated, fish and macrovertibrates. The
18 woodstorks fed on them and I had an approximation of
19 when the woodstorks would breed, and then the
20 woodstorks would breed and they would eat, their
21 young would eat and they would raise their nestlings.
22 I had an output of the model which was the
23 number of nestlings produced each year. I had that
24 output for the primitive condition, the same set of
25 rainfall, and for the present condition which was
16
1 also using the same set of rainfall but with the
2 model with and without the canals.
3 I showed that the present recruitment
4 produced by the model was very similar to the actual
5 present recruitment for the past 25 years, which
6 there is a record of. And I showed a very different
7 recruitment produced by the primitive model. That
8 was the woodstorks that we would have had if there
9 had not been a canal system.
10 Q. How did the canal system that you have
11 identified impact upon the community of woodstorks in
12 southwest Florida?
13 A. It increased the fresh water runoff of the
14 system and decreased the area that was flooded and
15 the period of time of flooding that gave the fish the
16 opportunity to expand out over the marsh and
17 reproduce.
18 Q. That lessened the opportunities for greater
19 biomass?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. Did the canal system have anything to do
22 with, I guess what you would classify or characterize
23 as concentrating of fish in the periods of drydown?
24 A. There was not as much fish to concentrate
25 during drydown because not as much had been produced
17
1 because the carrying capacity wasn't as large. There
2 wasn't as much land for the fish to reproduce and
3 grow.
4 Q. Was the water regime of Corkscrew Swamp
5 otherwise adversely effected by changes in water
6 management practices such as the timing of the
7 delivery of waters?
8 A. The woodstorks don't feed very much. They
9 feed maybe some in Corkscrew Swamp or on the marsh
10 just north of Corkscrew Swamp, but they mainly feed
11 all over southwest Florida.
12 Q. Well, were there any other changes in the
13 water regime besides just the placement of the canals
14 themselves that serve to disrupt that cycle that you
15 referred to?
16 A. Not that I know of. There were just
17 canals. No levys or that sort of thing, just canals,
18 a lot of canals.
19 Q. What was your first position after you
20 obtained your Ph.D. from the University of Florida?
21 A. I had a short research position with the
22 Soil Department of the University of Florida from
23 which I produced a model of soil subsidence in the
24 Everglades.
25 Q. I see that you next became a system ecology
18
1 consultant again for a rather short period of time?
2 A. No. That was that position.
3 Q. Same thing?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I see two listing here --
6 A. I'm sorry, you are right. I came down to
7 the University of Miami and apparently before I
8 received the appointment as research assistant
9 professor for a while I was system ecology professor
10 for them, right.
11 Q. What did that position entail?
12 A. I had two projects. Both were related to
13 commercial -- no. The first was related to
14 commercial fishing, and I did a sort of a holistic
15 description of the King and Spanish mackerel fishery
16 of Florida. I traveled the keys and the southeast
17 coast of Florida and interviewed fishermen and
18 collected -- well, notes. Then I wrote a workshop
19 report and then there was a workshop that was held.
20 I did this work for a resource economist.
21 Q. Did you arrive at any conclusions as a
22 result of that study?
23 A. That the King and Spanish mackerel fishery
24 was growing very fast at that time. It had not been
25 a major fishery until about that time. We
19
1 characterized it. There was a descriptive study.
2 Q. When you say it was growing, you mean more
3 people were fishing for fish or that the fish
4 population were increasing?
5 A. There was more effort expended for fish.
6 Not necessarily more people, but probably more
7 people, but I didn't have any before and after
8 comparison. But the landings were increasing.
9 Q. Your next position was as a research
10 assistant professor at Rosenstiel. What was that
11 position in a nutshell?
12 A. It was a continuation of the same work. It
13 just was a matter of being appointed to the staff or
14 the faculty.
15 I did another project and it was on the
16 paying passenger fisheries of Florida.
17 Q. The what passenger?
18 A. Paying passenger fisheries of Florida.
19 That consists of charter boats, headboat or party
20 boat, guide boat fisheries. I did the work with
21 another person, and he took the west coast of Florida
22 north of Tampa. It was just the west coast.
23 He took the west coast of Florida just
24 north of Tampa and I took Tampa south to Key West. I
25 interviewed fishermen, I collected data and published
20
1 a report.
2 Q. Your next position was adjunct teaching
3 professor at FIU?
4 A. Right. That was really simultaneous with
5 my position at the University of Miami. Yes. I
6 taught water resources.
7 Q. Next position is adjunct assistant
8 professor at Rosenstiel. What was that, in a
9 nutshell?
10 MS. STARK: I think that's what she just
11 answered.
12 THE WITNESS: No. Actually this adjunct
13 professor, that was an appointment. That was
14 simultaneous with my new employment, full time,
15 at the department of commerce.
16 BY MR. HYDE:
17 Q. Was this adjunct assistant professor
18 position a teaching position or research position?
19 A. Research position.
20 Q. What was your assignment?
21 A. That was when I did the Everglades studies.
22 They had started when I was still working full time
23 at the Rosenstiel school and they continued beyond
24 that.
25 Q. The next position you have listed is
21
1 operations research analyst. What was that?
2 A. That was my original position at the
3 National Fishery Service. My first work when I went
4 to work for the National Fishery Service was in
5 writing fishery management plans, including the one
6 for costal palagic species which involve the Spanish
7 mackerel and one other fish.
8 Q. Now, your next position was as a research
9 ecologist again with the National Marine Fishery
10 Service. How did that position differ from the
11 operation research analyst position?
12 A. Well, I began to do other thing besides
13 just work fishery management plans. I did a research
14 project with NASA on the Callasieu marsh in
15 Louisiana. I did a model of -- probabilistic model
16 of the change in between land and water, the
17 interface between land and water as a function of
18 area of marsh and how it changed over time. Let's
19 see.
20 At sometime in there I began
21 working on a project in the 10,000 Islands funded by
22 the Corps of Engineers, South Florida Water
23 Management District?
24 Q. What were these studies?
25 A. These were studies of fish abundances and
22
1 ichthyoplankton concentrations in relation to the
2 Faka Union Bay to Pumpkin Bay. Faka Union Bay is
3 affected by the discharge from the Golden Gate Canal
4 system.
5 Q. Did you then move to was it Beaufort, North
6 Carolina?
7 A. No, I didn't. I worked from here, but I
8 was assigned to them.
9 Q. What did that position as a fishery
10 biologist in research entail?
11 A. Continuation of those projects. Plus I had
12 a project with NASA to apply my probabilistic model
13 of marsh disintegration to the marshes of Louisiana.
14 Q. It sounds to me during this period of time
15 you have been basically engaged in ongoing series of
16 activities and even though your job title may change
17 you are basically doing the same thing, would that be
18 a fair summation?
19 A. In a sense. You mean while I have been at
20 the Department of Commerce?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Although I have done a lot of different
23 things while I have been at the Department of
24 Commerce.
25 Q. Would it be fair to characterize these
23
1 changes and positions as perhaps being upgrades or
2 promotions?
3 A. Some of them were related to promotions to
4 grade increases.
5 Q. The final category I see here is fishery
6 biologist research for the National Marine Fishery
7 Service, which is what you have been doing since
8 October of 1987. Again, give me a thumbnail sketch
9 of that, what that entails?
10 A. That was -- I have been working -- after
11 this reassignment I continued work on my NASA project
12 and my 10,000 Island projects. To some extent I
13 began doing oceanic palagics research working with
14 marlin and blue fin tuna, yellow fin tuna, swordfish.
15 Q. And then I guess finally on page 2 of your
16 CV there is another position listed as adjunct
17 research assistant professor at Rosenstiel from July
18 1990 to the present.
19 A. Right. In that capacity I really haven't
20 done any research.
21 Q. It sounds from what you have told me that
22 you are really -- your expertise or field of
23 concentration is fisheries. Would that be a fair
24 characterization?
25 A. Yes.
24
1 Q. Do you consider yourself an expert in the
2 area of periphyton?
3 MS. STARK: Object to the form of the
4 question.
5 BY MR. HYDE:
6 Q. You may go ahead and answer the question.
7 A. I have done work on periphyton and I know
8 quite a lot about the Everglades periphyton through
9 my own work and through the work of two other people
10 that I have -- whose work I have read that I have
11 discussed and worked with on recent symposium
12 proceedings that sort of refreshed my memory and
13 knowledge of periphyton. It's restricted to the
14 Everglades.
15 Q. Whom do you consider to be the acknowledged
16 experts in the field of periphyton research?
17 A. Robert Wetzel.
18 Q. Anyone else?
19 A. I can't think of anybody at the moment.
20 Q. Do you know an individual named Dave Swift
21 who is employed by the South Florida Water Management
22 District?
23 A. Yes. He is an expert. Patrick Gleason is
24 an expert in Everglades periphyton.
25 Q. Any other people that you know that may not
25
1 necessarily be associated with studying periphyton in
2 south Florida that you would consider an expert in
3 the field besides Mr. Wetzel?
4 A. I believe there is an individual named
5 Brian Moss. This is just from memory. I really
6 can't think of anyone else. You could look in my
7 periphyton paper, the symposium paper, you might find
8 some names of people that might be considered
9 experts.
10 Q. Who is Brian Moss? Can you tell me
11 anything more about it? Do you know where he teaches
12 or anything like that?
13 A. No. Nancy Maynard is an expert in
14 periphyton. She worked with Wood -- Ferguson Wood at
15 the University of Miami. She did quite a lot of work
16 in the Everglades.
17 Q. Is she still there?
18 A. No. The last I heard she was a
19 consultant -- not a consultant but an advisor to a
20 scientific committee advising the White House. That
21 was during the Bush administration.
22 Q. Who was or is Ferguson Wood?
23 A. He was an expert in microorganisms
24 including bluegreen algae, and he was a professor at
25 the University of Miami Rosenstiel School. He was
26
1 from Australia. He is now deceased.
2 Q. Any other names spring to mind?
3 A. Well, Nancy Van Meter Kasnof did her
4 Master's work on the Everglades periphyton.
5 Q. Spell her last name?
6 A. K-a-s-n-o-f.
7 Q. Do you know where Mrs. Kasnof is currently
8 employed or located?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. You have mentioned some minutes ago some --
11 one of your positions as involving some early
12 research in the area of periphyton. This is back in
13 the 1978, '79 time frame?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell me how that came about?
16 A. Well, when I had a position at the
17 University of Miami I applied for a grant or a
18 contract, a competitive contract with Everglades
19 National Park.
20 Q. To whom did you apply?
21 A. The person that was in charge of the work
22 was their botanist -- their plant ecologist Lloyd
23 Loop.
24 MS. STARK: What was that last name?
25 THE WITNESS: Loop.
27
1 BY MR. HYDE:
2 Q. Is he the person who determined to give you
3 that award?
4 A. Yes, I think so.
5 Q. What was your assignment, if you will?
6 A. It's involved with looking at the
7 volumetric composition of the periphyton in terms of
8 the gross taxonomy, the higher taxonomy. That was
9 the bluegreens, the greens and the diatoms. They
10 also broke out the desmids, which are a type of green
11 algae different from the rest.
12 Q. Why were you doing that?
13 A. To determine how it varied around the
14 Everglades. If it varied spacially over wide areas,
15 or if there were differences between areas and to
16 look at what environment factors might be correlated
17 with the variation.
18 Q. Where were you studying in the Everglades?
19 Are you talking about the Everglades National Park
20 here?
21 A. Yes, and also the east Everglades.
22 Q. When you say the east Everglades, can you
23 be a little more particular in your description?
24 A. South Dade County, outside of the park.
25 Including the C-111 area, and including northeast
28
1 Shark Slough, and including the area just south of
2 Camp Owassa Bauer, I believe, the rock land part of
3 east Everglades, the rock ridge part of east
4 Everglades, south of there.
5 Q. Was any of this work done in the water
6 conservation areas?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How long did this study last?
9 A. The field work was about a year.
10 Q. Did you work with anyone?
11 A. Yes. I had several people working for me.
12 Q. Were they like research assistants?
13 A. Yes, or consultants.
14 Q. Were any of the people that you worked
15 with, for lack of a better term, supervising or major
16 contributors to that effort as opposed to being
17 merely, say, a research assistant?
18 A. Well, I guess there was sort of like a
19 field and lab manager that was the main person that
20 helped me with it. His name was Melvin Brown.
21 Q. How did you go about conducting that study?
22 A. We made collections in the field and then
23 we brought them to the lab and they were analyzed
24 under a microscope, and estimates of the volume of
25 each of the major types were made, and I had a group
29
1 of consultants doing that work.
2 Q. How was the periphyton collected in the
3 field?
4 A. It was collected from around the stems of
5 plants where it was growing, and it was put in a jar
6 in FAA and it was brought in.
7 Q. Did you just chop the plants and bring them
8 in or scrape it off the plant? What was the
9 methodology?
10 A. Just picked it off the plant.
11 Q. Did you insert them in any particular type
12 of container?
13 A. A jar that had FAA in it, which is a
14 preservative mixture of several things.
15 Q. Would that preservative have killed the
16 plant?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I guess it's a plant?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Once you brought it into the laboratory
21 what steps did you undertake to examine it? I know
22 you said you looked at it under a microscope. Is
23 that all you did?
24 A. Well, it was homogenized or stirred up. It
25 was stirred up and samples were taken and put on with
30
1 an eye dropper and put on a slide.
2 Q. Why was it stirred up?
3 A. So that we would have a sample that was
4 representative of the whole thing, not just
5 beginning, the outer layer or the middle layer.
6 Q. So once you prepared the slide what did you
7 do with it?
8 A. Put it in a microscope and used the
9 micrometer in the microscope to measure the length
10 and widths, and we used standard equations, geometric
11 equations to convert it from that volume.
12 Q. What is a micrometer?
13 A. It's just a little -- almost like cross
14 hairs in a microscope that you look at to measure
15 size.
16 Q. You mentioned that you use standard
17 equations. Can you give me and idea what they were?
18 A. Equation for a cone or a cylinder or a
19 sphere or a rectangle or a square.
20 Q. Maybe you can be more particular and say
21 you are looking at like a creel of some sort?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And if it's of certain widths then you are
24 assuming it's -- width is not the right word, but it
25 has a certain diameter then it has a width through
31
1 it, then you estimate what the volume would be from
2 that equations, is that essentially correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You have to forgive me. I'm not a
5 scientist. I want to make certain what you are
6 saying.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did this study result in a report?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it report T-643?
11 A. There were two reports.
12 Q. You should have them.
13 A. Yes. That was the one on the composition
14 of the periphyton.
15 Q. Report T-643 was the composition of the
16 periphyton?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was there a second report?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was that?
21 A. It was about the biomass of the periphyton
22 and biomass of macrophytes that were growing with the
23 periphyton. The macrophytes in a meter square area,
24 and we also estimated the biomass of the periphyton
25 in that meter square area based on smaller samples.
32
1 Q. Let's concentrate for a moment, if you
2 will, on report T-643 which we should mark as
3 Exhibit 3.
4 (The document referred to was thereupon
5 marked Exhibit 3 for Identification.)
6 BY MR. HYDE:
7 Q. You have before you a document that's
8 labeled Exhibit 3. Is that the report T-643 that we
9 have been discussing so far?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are you the primary author of that
12 document?
13 A. Yes, I am.
14 Q. I would like you to turn to page 19 of
15 Exhibit 3. Towards the bottom of the page there is a
16 section entitled, "Summary."
17 The first one reads, "The relative
18 importance (volume) of the major algal taxa in
19 periphyton differs considerably from site to site in
20 the southern Everglades. Composition can be
21 quantified with a precision that allows statistically
22 significant differences to be determined."
23 Can you describe to me or at least point me
24 to the portion of the report that explains how the
25 periphyton does differ from site to site in the
33
1 southern Everglades?
2 A. There is probably a table.
3 MS. STARK: Just so I'm clear, for the
4 differences we are talking now are we talking
5 composition differences?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 BY MR. HYDE:
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. There is a series of tables C-1 through
10 C-6. I notice here that there are five quarters of
11 sampling. Evidently some of the samples --
12 Q. Which page number are you referring to?
13 A. Sampled on the first quarter, but on the
14 fifth quarter there was a year total of field work at
15 each station.
16 Q. Can you tell me which page you are on?
17 A. Yes. 91 and 92 through 97.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Is there something that
19 identifies where these various stations are?
20 A. There is a map. It's on -- apparently
21 there are two maps, figure 1 and figure 2.
22 Q. Pages 24 and 25?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let's turn back to page 92. It seems that
25 from my untoward eye that the percent of bluegreens
34
1 is fairly high at all of the stations involved; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes, except for if you look at station 8, I
4 would not say it's high there. Although many of them
5 are 99 or 98 or something, some are low 90s and some
6 in the 80 percentages.
7 Q. To what do you attribute this generally
8 high percentage of bluegreens at the various stations
9 listed on appendix table C-1?
10 MS. STARK: Object to the form of the
11 question. You may answer.
12 THE WITNESS: Well, my analysis suggests
13 that the higher percentages of bluegreens were
14 associated with the shorter hydroperiods, and
15 the lower percentage of bluegreens were
16 associated with the longer hydroperiods.
17 BY MR. HYDE:
18 Q. When you say shorter and longer
19 hydroperiods, what do you mean by those two phrases?
20 What is a short hydroperiod?
21 A. Well, I guess seven months or less, and a
22 long hydroperiod would be nine or ten months or maybe
23 ten months or more. It's relative.
24 Q. You said they are associated with those
25 short hydroperiods. There is predominance of
35
1 bluegreens associated with the shorter hydroperiods.
2 Do you have any opinions as to what the cause is or
3 the connection is other than just the mere
4 correlation?
5 A. Well, in the later periphyton paper I made
6 some suggestions of why it might be correlated with
7 it. The bluegreen algae in the periphyton, one of
8 the species that is particularly predominant is
9 basically a soil algae by, you know, by evolution,
10 and it can withstand long periods of desiccation and
11 in fact bluegreen filaments, bluegreens are noted in
12 general and some of them withstanding long periods of
13 desiccation.
14 Q. By desiccation you mean drying out?
15 A. Drying out, yes.
16 Q. Can you identify the species that you said
17 was typically associated with soil?
18 A. Sytonema.
19 Q. Are there any other reasons why that would
20 be the case?
21 A. Well, short hydroperiods usually mean
22 shallow water, fairly shallow water. The shallower
23 the water the higher the temperature of the water.
24 The bluegreens are very tolerant of high water
25 temperatures, some species are.
36
1 Q. Other types of species like green --
2 A. They may not be. Well, they are not as
3 tolerant in general.
4 Q. Are there any other environmental factors
5 that might contribute to the relative abundance of
6 bluegreens versus other types of periphyton?
7 MS. STARK: Object to the form of the
8 question. You can answer it.
9 THE WITNESS: Water chemistry has an
10 influence, both in terms of the calcium
11 carbonate -- calcium concentration relative to
12 saturation and nutrients, nitrogen and
13 phosphorus have influence on the composition.
14 BY MR. HYDE:
15 Q. Let's address the calcium carbonate. How
16 do they influence those populations?
17 A. Actually I thought that the amount of
18 calcite associated with periphyton would be an
19 indicator of the proportions of bluegreen in the
20 periphyton. But I did an analysis and that was not
21 the case. That very definitely was not the case.
22 So it's not correlated. It's not
23 correlated. However, where you have very soft water,
24 lower ph water, you are going to get quite a lot of
25 desmids. That's according to Pat Gleason's work.
37
1 Q. Did you attempt to verify that thesis
2 yourself or are you just accepting his study?
3 A. I'm accepting that in terms of his
4 expertise concerning the desmids.
5 What we concluded as a group in writing our
6 periphyton report was that hydrology can overcome
7 water chemistry in terms of the calcite deposited.
8 So that's why you wouldn't get the correlation
9 between calcite and the amount of bluegreen algae.
10 The bluegreen algaes are the ones that would
11 precipitate calcite. But there are other factors
12 that influence that not just how much bluegreen algae
13 there is?
14 Q. How did the hydroperiod or how does
15 hydroperiod overcome that?
16 MS. STARK: Object to the form of the
17 question. You can answer it.
18 THE WITNESS: The hydroperiod affects the
19 amount of the partial pressure of CO2 in the
20 water column which influences the -- whether or
21 not a given amount of calcium will precipitate
22 as calcite.
23 BY MR. HYDE:
24 Q. Why does that occur? Is it just the sheer
25 weight of the water that causes that to occur?
38
1 A. No. It's both the hydroperiod influences
2 the length of time that the land stands where the
3 organic matter that's on the land is decomposing in
4 the air rather than in the water. So there is less
5 biomass to decompose under water and release CO2 when
6 you have shorter hydroperiods.
7 Q. Are there any other factors that come into
8 play?
9 A. The deeper the water the slower the CO2 is
10 to diffuse from the water.
11 Q. Would that have a function to do with the
12 weight or pressure of the water?
13 A. It's not the weight, but it's for distance
14 that the diffusion takes place.
15 Q. So just to make sure I understand. Part of
16 it is just having water there continuously, and part
17 of it is related to the depth of the water?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Are there any other factors?
20 A. There could be a factor of an influence on
21 the biomass, the growth rate and biomass of emergent
22 vegetation on the site, because the emergent
23 vegetation falling into the water and decomposing
24 releases a lot of CO2. The more you have growing and
25 decomposing into the water the more CO2 will be
39
1 released given all other factors.
2 Q. And as more CO2 is released you would have
3 more bluegreen algae?
4 A. You would have less calcite deposited.
5 Like I say, the amount of bluegreen algae
6 didn't seem to be related to the amount of calcite
7 deposited, because these other factors were playing a
8 role.
9 Q. Does water velocity come into play here at
10 all?
11 MS. STARK: Object to the form of the
12 question. You can answer if you understand it.
13 THE WITNESS: Water can move -- a given
14 quantity of water can move from one place to
15 another so the water chemistry could be
16 displaced some in space.
17 BY MR. HYDE:
18 Q. I'm just speaking purely about the flow
19 characteristics of water, fast moving water body
20 versus a slower, more tepid or almost stagnant water
21 body?
22 A. I didn't do any analysis related to
23 velocity.
24 Q. How did nutrients come into play here?
25 A. Well, nutrients are correlated with certain
40
1 types of bluegreen algae, microcoleus sometimes green
2 algae.
3 Q. What do you mean by correlated?
4 A. Well, the higher the nutrient level,
5 nutrient concentration, the higher the volume of the
6 algae proportionately.
7 Q. Do you regard correlation as establishing a
8 cause and effect relationship?
9 A. Well, it is some suggestion of a cause and
10 effect relationship. But you don't always know which
11 direction the cause and the effect are. There are
12 spurious correlations that occur. It's some
13 indication.
14 Q. Is this a spurious correlation or is it
15 some proof but not substantial proof?
16 A. It's a suggestion.
17 Q. Could it be merely an exacerbating factor?
18 Do you understand what I mean when I say that?
19 In other words, something else is the cause
20 and it merely contributes once that occurs?
21 MS. STARK: Object to the form of the
22 question. You can answer it.
23 THE WITNESS: I can't really get ahold of
24 that question very well. So perhaps I shouldn't
25 answer it.
41
1 BY MR. HYDE:
2 Q. Well, I think you also stated earlier that
3 bluegreens were associated with shorter hydroperiods,
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Correlated with shorter hydroperiods?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You are saying there is correlation with
9 higher nutrient concentrations also?
10 A. With some kinds of bluegreens, yes.
11 Q. With some kinds of bluegreens?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are all bluegreens associated with higher
14 nutrients or just some?
15 A. Just some.
16 Q. Have you made any attempt to allocate the
17 respective contributions of on the one hand a
18 hydroperiod that is short hydroperiods and on the
19 other hand higher nutrient concentrations in terms of
20 these bluegreen algaes?
21 A. Well, let's see. I think I did a
22 regression analysis that had several factors in it,
23 not just one.
24 Q. Which page are you referring to?
25 A. Let's see. This is appendix F, multiple
42
1 regressions are equations where I tried to take into
2 consideration several different factors at the same
3 time, and I looked at each quarter separately.
4 Q. Would you explain to this untoward mind
5 what a regression equation is and what its function
6 is?
7 A. Its function is to show the relationship of
8 a dependent variable which is on the left to
9 independent variables which are on the right.
10 Q. What did this regression analysis
11 demonstrate to you?
12 A. Well, it suggested relationships of the
13 dependent variable which was the proportionate
14 bluegreen algae to the proportion of sole organic
15 matter quarterly hydroperiod and the specific
16 conductance in this first equation, and then a
17 different equation showed that the bluegreen was
18 related to the inorganic nitrogen in the water, and
19 the total microphyte biomass. Here is something for
20 quarter two. The proportion of bluegreen algae was
21 related to the proportions of soil organics, the
22 specific conductance. The water depth and the time
23 since drought.
24 Q. Maybe you can take me through that
25 item-by-item. I presume you are on -- we are on
43
1 quarter 2 of Table F-1?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Just tell me the first line beginning with
4 the number .0724 minus and then -- et cetera. What
5 does all of that represent?
6 A. 0724 is the intercept.
7 Q. What is the intercept?
8 A. In a very simple linear regression which is
9 just one variable against another variable I can show
10 you. This is sort of multidimensional. I can't show
11 it, but I can show you this. This is percent
12 bluegreen and this is -- let me see if I have
13 everything here. Percent soil organic or something --
14 I'm just grabbing something fast, and intercept is
15 this place right here. That's where this regression
16 line in a linear regression intersects with zero on
17 the line of the independent variable. This is the
18 independent variable, and this is the dependent
19 variable.
20 Now, the next figure is 1.1139X1 the
21 proportion negatively related to the proportion of
22 soil organic matter. Then it says that the
23 proportions of bluegreen algae is positively related
24 to the specific conductance.
25 Q. That's also positively related to water
44
1 depth?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But negatively related to time since
4 drought?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it more related to water depth than to
7 specific conductance?
8 MS. STARK: Object to the form of the
9 question.
10 THE WITNESS: Shall I go on?
11 MS. STARK: Yes. You may answer.
12 THE WITNESS: You see the numbers in
13 parenthesis below and the stars -- the asterisks
14 that occur with them?
15 BY MR. HYDE:
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. The strongest factor in that particular
18 equation was specific conductance.
19 Q. What do you mean by the strongest factor?
20 A. Well, it was the mostly significant factor,
21 I guess, is what I should say. It was a highly
22 significant factor.
23 Q. When you say it was the most significant
24 factor, does that mean it was the best indicator?
25 A. No. That doesn't necessarily mean that.
45
1 But it could mean that.
2 Q. What does it mean? I don't understand what
3 you mean when you say highly significant?
4 A. Well, something can be -- you pick a level
5 for significance like say everything significant that
6 has a probability of less than or equal to .05 if
7 occurring by chance or .1 if occurring by chance. I
8 think I used .1 in this analysis. But statistical
9 programs give you information on what level that
10 would have been significant. It wouldn't have
11 occurred by chance at a significance of -- at a
12 probability of .001 or .0001. In this case with the
13 two stars it meant at a probability of less than or
14 equal to .05. That's on the back page.
15 Q. So in the example on page 107 specific
16 conductance was the most significant indicator, but
17 not the only indicator?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. I notice on some of the subsequent tables,
20 page 108, you are looking at different things here
21 such as salinity, alkalinity, nitrogen and hydro?
22 A. Let me explain. I'm not really -- well
23 maybe so. Maybe I'm looking at different ones.
24 Okay.
25 Q. I just wondered why you started looking at
46
1 these different factors as opposed to what you did in
2 quarter 2 which is soil organic specific conductance,
3 water depth and time since drought?
4 A. This was the linear regression that I was
5 doing. The data and the algorithms for linear
6 regression that is in the program determine what
7 variables come out in the final equation. I'm only
8 showing final equations.
9 Q. Let's go through that second table that I
10 just referred to. It's quarter 3, page 108, at the
11 top of the page. This one you are dealing with, I
12 guess, your dependent variable is proportions of
13 bluegreen algae and the independent variables were
14 proportions soil organic, hydro, is that hydrology?
15 A. Quarterly hydroperiod, I guess.
16 Q. Quarterly hydroperiod, salinity and
17 alkalinity and nitrogen?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, looking at the second line there above
20 I notice only one star or asterisk?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. The equation is apparently significant, but
23 only one of the variables that are loaded in that
24 equation is significant at the level of significance
25 of .1?
47
1 Q. That was the variable of salinity of this
2 one; is that correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 MS. STARK: It's 12:35. You said you
5 wanted to break.
6 MR. HYDE: Let's break right now. I just
7 wanted to get through that table to make sure I
8 understood it. Let's break now and come back at
9 1:45.
10 (Thereupon, the lunch recess was taken.)
11 (Continues on next page)
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