STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS CASE NOs. 92-3038 92-3039 92-3040 SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF FLORIDA, INC., ROTH FARMS, INC., and WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC., and FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC., UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION, and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC., and FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS, W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and HUNDLEY FARMS, INC., Petitioners, vs. SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT, Respondent, and MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION, Intervenors. _____________________________________________________________ DEPOSITION OF DR. WILLIAM G. BOGGESS _____________________________________________________________ ACCURATE REPORTING A/K/A MACDONALD COURT REPORTING SERVICE 204 West University Ave., Suite 7, Gainesville FL 32601 (904) 373-1126 ù (800) 329-1133 ù FAX (904) 375-6249 Pursuant to due notice, the deposition of the above- named witness was taken by the Petitioners, Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative of Florida, Roth Farms, Inc., and Wedgworth Farms, Inc., before Mary Macdonald, Court Reporter and Notary Public, State at Large, at 204 West University Avenue, Gainesville, Florida, on Wednesday, January 6, 1993, commencing at 11:00 a.m. APPEARANCES: DONNA H. STINSON, Esquire, Post Office Box 6526, Tallahassee, Florida 32314, of counsel for Petitioners Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative of Florida, Roth Farms, Inc., and Wedgworth Farms, Inc.; KEITH E. SAXE, Esquire, United States Department of Justice, Environment & Natural Resources Division, General Litigation Section, Post Office Box 663, Washington, D.C. 20044; ROBERT ROSENBERG, Esquire, Assistant U.S. Attorney, Miami Ave, Suite 600, Miami, Florida 33132. MR. SAXE: Just a couple of notes on the documents here. We have some unusual circumstances because of the short lead time, as one of the reasons, and I'll explain. We have had basically five working days, on the notice, to get these together. What we have not been able to do is pull all of the publications referenced in the Document Attachment to the Notice in the category listed on the C.V. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: Because there's a nine-page list of documents. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: I have here a selection of documents, that Dr. Boggess was able to pull in the short time, that pertains directly to South Florida, but as far as the balance of documents on that list, do you want to consider some narrowing of the volume of material that you're interested in getting copies of, with an eye toward doing it reciprocally with respect to Dr. Lysrick's as well. MS. STINSON: Sure. I didn't have the opportunity to look through his article list and I can do that today, maybe in his deposition, and ask him what the articles are about, and all I want are the ones that are going to be reasonably relevant. MR. SAXE: All right. Then I think that certainly will be a lot less burdensome to address and we can take that up as it comes up today. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: The other thing is, what I've been able to do here is bring a set of responsive documents and one copy, but we're not ready to provide a copy yet for purposes of either attachment as exhibits to the deposition or for your use to take away from the deposition, for the reason that we do a number control on the documents and we need to put Bates numbers on the bottom of each of these documents and we just have not been able to do that in the quick spin-off time we have had. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: So what I propose is that the set of documents that we've been provided today can be used as a working copy for the purposes of the deposition, you can mark any that you would be inclined to do so, for purposes of attachment to the deposition transcript, but then what we have to do is take the physical documents back with us, get them number controlled, Bates numbered, and then return them to you and/or the court reporter, depending on whether they're marked as exhibits or whether you just want to take copies. MS. STINSON: Okay. We can work that out as I see what it is that I want. Now, if there are any that are not too long that we want to attach to the deposition, I presume we can just make copies today. MR. SAXE: Well, the thing is, you see, they won't be number controlled. You'll be making copies of them without the Bates numbers on the bottom, and before they become part of the record, without that number control, our procedure is to put those Bates numbers on them. That's the thing that we normally do and we didn't have an opportunity to do it in this short lead time. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: What we can do is we can take a photocopy of the front page and the number of pages involved in the document, if you wanted it for control purposes, and then we'll just turn around in a few days and get them back. MS. STINSON: Okay. Well, now, I need a few minutes to look through them before we begin. MR. SAXE: All right. (Thereupon, a short recess was had; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) Thereupon, DR. WILLIAM G. BOGGESS, being first duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. STINSON: Q Would you please state your name and business address. A William Glen Boggess and it's 1105 McCarty Hall, University of Florida, Gainesville. Q Okay. What is your occupation? A I'm a professor. Q Of? A Food and Resource Economics. Q In what department? A That is the department, Food and Resource Economics Department. Q Is that different from the Department of Agriculture? Is that a separate department? A That's a department in the College of Agriculture. Q I see. A And the College of Agriculture is a part of IFAS. Q Okay. A So if you hear IFAS that's the Institute for Food and Agricultural Sciences, I guess. Q Okay. A All I know is IFAS. Q Okay. A Anyway, we're a department within that. Q Okay. A We're in that institute/college. Q Okay. How long have you been associated with the University of Florida? A Since 1979. Q I have here what I believe is a copy of your r‚sum‚. A Yes. Q Since we can't attach this to the deposition, if you would identify that and tell me if that's your r‚sum‚. MR. SAXE: If it's okay, I don't see why this could not be marked as exhibits. MS. STINSON: Okay. Let's do that. MR. SAXE: And then what I'll do, after we have quickly turned them around to put the Bates number at the bottom of each page, I'll just send the exhibits to the reporter and send these other documents that haven't been introduced, but selected by you, directly to you. MS. STINSON: Okay. Then let's mark it then. THE WITNESS: This is my r‚sum‚, in response to your question. MS. STINSON: All right. We'll mark that as No. 1. (Dr. Boggess' r‚sum‚ so marked as Petitioners' Exhibit No. 1.) BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. Within your field do you specialize? A Yes, I do. Q What do you consider your specialty? A My specialty is in production economics and sort of the interaction between production, agriculture and the environment. Q Okay. A Which, I guess, would be considered a branch of resource economics, that environmental aspect. . . Q Okay. A . . .is sometimes considered part of resource economics. Q Okay. Tell me what production economics means. A Okay. Production economics focuses on sort of the production side of industry, business, agriculture. So cost production, technological change, production functions, sort of the production side as opposed to consumption or market demand or marketing being another major branch. Q Okay. Have you testified as an expert witness in proceedings before? A No, I have not. Q Okay. I notice you got your Bachelor's at Iowa State and your Ph.D. there as well? A That's correct. Q Without the intervening Master's degree? A That's correct. I was admitted directly into the Ph.D. program. Q Okay. What did you do your Ph.D. work in? A It's from the Department of Economics and my degree reads Agricultural Economics. Q Did you have a thesis topic? A Yes. Dissertation was "A National Interregional Analysis of Agricultural Policy and Its Conservation Policy", sort of interactions between income policies and conservation policies. Q Okay. Would you say that that's related to what you consider as one of your current specialties, the relationship between production and environment? A Yes. Q Within this are there any branches of agriculture which you specialize in? I notice there was a lot of work on soybeans and. . . A By commodity branches? Q Right. A No, I haven't really. There has been, at different times, different commodities that I worked on, but I have no assigned commodity responsibilities within the department. Q Nor do you personally focus on any one branch? A No. Q Okay. You also specialize, to some respect, in computer system software; is that correct, the application to agriculture? A That is correct. Q Have you developed software? A Yes. Q I notice here there was a grant you worked on for IBM for agricultural software development. A Yes. Q What was that for? A IBM negotiated a major contract with the University of Florida and within that it had several subcontracts with different departments to develop specialized software for microcomputers and Co-PI, and who actually took the lead on that project, Dick Levins, who's listed there. He and I got a subcontract to develop some basically management software for agricultural purposes. Q When you say management software. . A Some programs to help calculate cost of production, decisions to evaluate loan repayment, just a series of sort of spreadsheet type application packages. Q Are there any other major pieces of agricultural software that you have developed, other than what I presume you may need on a particular instance? A The only other one that I was instrumental in would be the computer model that was used in my dissertation. Q What did that do? A Well, it was part of a ÄÄ when I was at the Center for Agricultural and World Development, at Iowa State University, they had a long history of developing large scale models of U.S. agriculture and using them to analyze different policies of various types and my contribution to that was to develop sort of a new version of one of those large national models that was used in my dissertation to do the particular analysis that I did, looking at the interaction between the conservation policy and traditional agricultural income policies. So that model, to my knowledge, is no longer being used in its present format. It was part of the Center and I didn't bring it with me. Q Okay. Is that something that you use on a regular basis? A Not anymore. Q Okay. Are there major pieces of software that you use on a regular basis, particularly in your work on the relationship between production and environment? Are there standard software programs or particular ones that you use? A I guess the major analyses now are being done with spreadsheets. So we use Lotus 1-2-3 and develop templates to do whatever the particular task ÄÄ that's probably the major one. Q Okay. A Another software package used in my work, technicians do the actual computer work, is on Geographic Information Systems, or GIS. Q What is that? A Geographic Information Systems are sort of a buzz word for a combination of computer hardware and software that allow you to do database management ÄÄ traditional database management, like you might be familiar with it in a dBase program or database management system, but have that geo- referenced to map coordinates, so that that database can be linked to specific locations and you can create maps that show that at this particular location what the soil type is, what crop is being produced, and you can do a lot of geo- referencing. Q Okay. A You know, how far is that from a lake or how far is that from town, or what have you, and that software has sort of burst on the scene over the last decade or so and there's quite a bit of work being done now using it to analyze. Q Okay. Going through Exhibit 1, I notice also a grant or contract with the South Florida Water Management District, "Biogeochemical Behavior and Transport of Phosphorus in the Lake Okeechobee Basin." Were there any reports or documents, which you produced as a result of that work? A There is a completion report on that, I'm not even sure my name is on that, that's part of ÄÄ that contract was in the neighborhood of a two million dollar contract, across multiple disciplines, at the university and this sub-section was ÄÄ fifty thousand was sent to our department to help with one area, three of that larger project. Q What piece did you work on? A We were looking at sort of the materials balance aspects of phosphorus coming into and out of the basin. So there was. . . Q Okay. A I'll explain that. Q Okay. A There was actually a graduate student who did the work and the leader for Area 3 was Dr. Fluck in ag engineering and we were sort of cooperators with him on that, but the main thing they did there was take all the various agricultural enterprises in the Lake Okeechobee basin and materials balance ÄÄ you could say that if you have an element coming in, in this case they were concerned about phosphorus going into the lake, so the idea was to find out all the sources of phosphorus that are brought into that area, in the form of feeds or fertilizers or detergents, whatever other phosphorus-containing material. You account for all the materials coming in and then you account for all the materials that leave the region, in the way of milk or beef or oranges or any other product that may be exported, and then the difference has to be going someplace within that region, it either has to stored in the soil or it has to be leaving, you know, either through runoff or some other means. So we were responsible for doing the initial assessment, comparing dairies to beef cow/calf operations to various types of industries that were in the Lake Okeechobee basin and doing sort of an overall assessment of what the materials balance flows looked like. Q Did you get involved in the economics of that issue at all? A We do. That report did not do any economic assessment of it, it was purely a materials balance. Q Okay. A I was going to say, the rest of that whole project was looking at phosphorus flows in the soils. I mean, like I said, it was a very large project and we had a very small piece. Q Right. A The major focus of that biogeochemical behavior and transport was what was the biogeochemical behavior of phosphorus. So it's primarily a biochemistry and hydrologic, so most of the money was spent on those other processes and materials balance was just sort of an add-on. Q Is there some kind of major report from IFAS on that? A Stacks. Q Okay. A I can get you a copy of the final report from Area 3, which is the part that I worked on. If you would want it. It's probably like that (indicating). Q What does Area 3 mean? I mean, is that a geographical area? A No. Q A subject matter? A A subject matter area that overall contracted, as I remember, it had three areas and I forget what the other two were. One of them would have been the biochemical part and the other would probably have been the transport part, or whatever. Q Okay. A And then there was this regional materials balance. Q Okay. A And there are copies of all the reports from all that were available, either from IFAS or from the district. Q Okay. A I would think. I mean, that has been completed now a few years. Q Okay. There's also what looks like perhaps some related work, a grant from the South Florida Water Management District: "Comparative Assessment of BMPs and Phosphorus Control Strategies for the Lake Okeechobee Basin." A Yes. Q Is there some kind of a document that was produced as a result of that work? A There's only two ÄÄ well, there's several things, I guess. There are two papers that we provided in that pile that came out of that work. Q Okay. A This is where we used ÄÄ began using the GIS system and that contract was the basis for ÄÄ you'll see, like in this particular one, you'll see reference to LOADSS Model, Lake Okeechobee Agricultural Decision Support System. Q Okay. A This contract was for us to develop that system. Q Okay. I'll be going through these, too. A Okay. Q So we can cross-reference here. A Okay. Q Other than what you provided to me today, are there other documents as a result of that work? A There are interim sub ÄÄ I guess you would call them task reports, things like that, that were submitted to the district periodically. Q But you. . . A There's no final report on that yet, because there's another contract that you'll come to. Q Okay. A Or that you probably already noted, and that was an extension of this particular study and it's been extended one more time. So we still haven't hit final deadline on that yet. Q Okay. A So there's no final summary report. Q The next one, ERS, USDA. What is ERS? A The ERS is Economic Research Service, which is a branch of USDA. Q Okay. "Agriculture and Water Quality: An Area Study of a Multicounty Site in Florida/Georgia." What area was that? A It was sort of the panhandle area, Jackson County, and then the corresponding counties in southwest Georgia. Q Peanuts and soybeans. A Yeah, peanuts and soybeans dominate up there. Q What did you look at in that study? A That was a study that was done by a graduate student of mine, while she was an intern with the Economic Research Service, and they were wanting primarily sort of a background study on what the issues are in that area and sort of a comparative assessment of the environmental agencies and laws and so forth and how they compare between Florida and Georgia and Alabama, since they all sort of shared that area, but they have vastly different departments and different rules and so forth. Q Okay. A So that sort of lays out the lay of the land. There was no formal analysis. Q Okay. Let me back up for a minute. I noticed also that you were a visiting person with ERS, USDA, '85 to '86. A Yes. Q What is NRED? A NRED stands for Natural Resource Economics Division. Q Of the ERS, USDA? A It's a sub-branch. ERS is broken down by subject matter areas. They have a policy area, they have a resource area and so forth. Q Okay. A That was the resource economics branch. Q When you did that, were you still located in Gainesville? A No, I was in Washington, D.C. Q What work did you do while you were there? A I worked on the implementation of the conservation provisions at the 1985 ÄÄ Security Act, and particularly the Conservation Reserve Program. Q Okay. A Or CRP, oftentimes referred to. Q Okay. Am I correct in understanding that that is a program to set aside land? A Yes, set aside program. Q Okay. A grant from Dairy Farmers, Inc.: "The Economic Impact of Dairy Rule in Okeechobee County, Florida." I noticed in the documents there's some information on that. A Yes. Q Have you provided me the report that you did as a result of that? A Yes, I did. Q Okay. And South Florida Water Management District: "Graphic Interface for Water Quality and Hydraulic Data in LOADSS." Have you provided me the documents? A As I indicated, that's part of the follow-up, on the follow-up contracts to that earlier South Florida Comparative Assessment of BMPs. Q And do you have documents as a result of that? A We have a user's manual, that's really a software package, so it was a draft user's manual that's been provided to the district, and we can provide you with a copy of that, if you would like. I have not provided that. Q Okay. A But it's available and that activity will all sort of be summarized in the final report. Q And when is that due? A That's due in, I think, the end of March. Q Okay. A There's actually ÄÄ I have an update, so there's actually another contract that was written this fall that takes us through March. Q All right. A And that's basically enhancement of that model and verification and validations. . . MR. SAXE: Excuse me. Is this the document that you want to collect from a list to have a copy provided to you? MS. STINSON: I'm not sure yet. MR. SAXE: Oh, fine, we'll re-visit that. MS. STINSON: Yes. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. What did you do in this contract? Did you develop software or did you draw some economic conclusions, or what was your. . . A Our primary task has been to develop software. Q Okay. A The district has spent I don't know how many millions of dollars studying Lake Okeechobee and how to solve the problem, Lake Okeechobee, and when they first negotiated with us to do the initial contract, what they were wanting from us was for us to develop this GIS database management system that would allow them to sort of organize all the studies and all the research that had been done and allow them to make some comparisons and do some analyses of alternative ways of reducing the phosphorus load to the lake. Q Okay. A So our major effort has been to design that system and get that system programmed and then load in the information that had been developed under various other contractors' reports, by the district, from whatever source information was available to put it in the system, and then they anticipate using that to do the actual analysis and draw the conclusions about how they might want to proceed with the SWIM Plan. So we have not done any of the actual analyses or alternatives or drawn any conclusion. Q The SWIM Plan, you mean the Okeechobee. . . A Okeechobee SWIM Plan. Q SWIM Plan. A Correct. Q All right. Does that program contain or have provision for analyzing economic information? A Yes, it has. The databases are set up to store and allow you to manipulate sort of the cost of implementing different BMPs. Q Okay. Going through publication, when you co- authored on "Agriculture and Water Quality: Where Are We and Why." A Yes. Q If you can, tell me if there's anything pertinent or specifically relevant to the Everglades area in that chapter. A No, that's ÄÄ I can get you a copy of that, that's a general book and Dr. Lynne and I were asked to sort of write this introductory chapter on sort of the lay of the land, just interactions between agriculture and water quality. So it's generic, sort of the U.S. and, to some extent, the book has an international perspective. Q Okay. A So there's nothing specific with respect to Florida or the AA. Q Okay. "Decision Support Systems for Sustainable Agriculture." Tell me what that means. Is this a computer issue or. . . A This is ÄÄ let's see. Doctor Jones is the lead on that. Decision support systems are sort of another buzz word, it's a little like GIS in academia. There's sort of a new buzz word that goes around every now and then. Q Okay. A But decision support systems are using computer systems that are designed to manipulate information that allows the decision maker to analyze, you know, some specific decision more effectively. Q Okay. MR. SAXE: I'm sorry, which entry are we on in Chapters in Books? MS. STINSON: The third from the bottom. THE WITNESS: Jones and Bowen. MR. SAXE: Thanks. BY MS. STINSON: Q The next one obviously has some Florida tilt to it. A Yes. Q Rather than ask you about it, I'll ask you if you would provide that. A It's in what I've provided. Q Okay. That's "Florida's Experience with Managing Nonpoint Source Phosphorus Runoff into Lake Okeechobee." A Correct. Q Okay. The top of page 3 of your r‚sum‚, "Importance, Causes and Management Responses to Farm Risks: Evidence from Florida and Alabama." A Yes. Q What is that about? A That's a summary of a joint survey effort that was done by myself and Dr. Hanson, it was at Auburn at the time. Kwabena Anaman was a graduate student. We surveyed farmers again in Jackson County and an adjoining county in Alabama, basically had them sort of rank relative importance of different sources of risk in their farming operations and also asked them what sort of decisions or mechanisms they used to ameliorate the impacts of that risk. Q What types of risks, for example? A An example, it would be price variability, variation in interest rates, climate, weather, pests, pressures, there's also concerns about labor availability. So it's sort of a whole list of possible factors that might be uncertain. Q And what you did was just analyze the results of the survey? A Yes, we summarized, basically, the response to that survey. Q Summarized. A Yes. Q Okay. A And we tried to lay out what they thought was most important and what sort of management responses they took to ameliorate the impacts. Q Okay. Halfway down, "Agricultural Nonpoint Pollution: A Regulatory Dilemma." Is that related to your work on Lake Okeechobee? A No, that predates that. I would have to pull that out to see. . . Q What it's about? A What it's about. Roy was the lead author there, so that means that he probably did the first drafting on it. Q Okay. A To be honest with you, I don't know what case we were making in that one, but that was prior to my involvement with Okeechobee. Q Okay. How about the next one, "The Implications of Reliability Theory for Environmental Institutional Design and Decision Making"? Explain that to me. A That was an invited paper that Dr. Milon and I worked on. Reliability theory is a theory of decision making under uncertainty and that we basically explored the implications of that theory for decision making and how it might relate to policy makers, who were having to design environmental policies when there was considerable uncertainty about the impacts of the policies or the implications of it. Q Okay. A So that's sort of a theoretical exploration on how that theory might be useful. Q I would like a copy of that, please. A Okay. MR. SAXE: Excuse me. Are you going to keep a list of the ones that you would like a copy of, or would you like us to make an indication, because. . . MS. STINSON: I'll tell you what. When I finish running through this I'll go back and list which ones I do want. MR. SAXE: Okay. That's fine. BY MS. STINSON: Q All right. The next one, "Coordination of Public and Private Action: A Case Study of Lake Restoration." Is that a Florida based. . . A That looks like Apopka, near Orlando. Q Okay. Skipping down to "FinARS: A Financial Analysis Review System." A Yes, I see it. Q Third from the bottom. A Yes. Q That's a review system to financially analyze what? A That's a little computer package that uses expert system softwear to ÄÄ it works much like a doctor diagnosing a firm's financial health. You feed the program certain key financial information and it calculated ratios and sort of like takes a temperature of the business and the blood pressure and indicates whether or not there's serious concerns that you might want to look at. Q Is this specifically related to an agricultural business or can it be applied generically? A We tried to write that one to be generic, so it doesn't get very specific. That's one of the problems. If you were going to use it in oranges in Florida versus corn production in Iowa, you would want it to do slightly different things. So we used it much like a doctor would do an initial diagnosis. If you have a bad fever it's probably something you ought to look at, regardless where the fever came from. Q Okay. A We use it primarily in teaching applications. Q Okay. A To get the student to understand how to do financial ratio analyses. Q Okay. On page 4, the third from the bottom, "Farm Risks: Their Importance, Their Causes and Farmers' Responses." A Yes. Q Is that the same work that was published. . . A Yes. Q . . .regarding the Jackson, Alabama? A That's an abstract of an earlier version of that paper that was presented at that meeting. Q Okay. On page 5, about halfway down there's an abstract for sugar cane seminar, "Use of Expert Systems to Enhance Agricultural Financial Decisions." A Yes. Q Is that a paper that you gave at a seminar? A Yes, and that relates back to that FinARS package. Q Okay. The last one, under Abstracts, "Integrating Economics and Environmental Considerations into the Fertilizer Decision Process." Tell me what that involves. A That is part of Mr. Mentonelli's thesis research and basically we looked at sort of procedurally how ÄÄ well, traditionally a lot of fertilizer decision analysis in economics would be looking at sort of what is the optimal level of fertilization from a profitability standpoint. Q Okay. A And we wanted to sort of expand that to take into account the environmental concerns that you might also be worried about, potential leaching or runoff of nutrients, and so giving an analytical framework, which you could sort of look at, the profitability dimensions as well as an initial estimation of what the potential environmental impact might be. Q Did you look at the experiments in the Lake Okeechobee area of the Everglades' agricultural area in there? A This was not specific to those areas, in fact, the data he used was from some corn production, corn experiments in Jackson County. Q Okay. Then on page 7, next to the last thing. A Yes. Q That sounds like the same work, a different paper on the same work. A That's correct. Q Okay. Turning to page 9, the fourth one down, "Agricultural and Water Quality in the Southeastern Coastal Plains: A Descriptive Analysis." A Yes. Q Tell me what that is. A That's a report that was prepared under that one contract that you asked me about that was the multicounty site in Florida and Alabama. Q Okay. A Do you want to go back to that ERS, "Agriculture and Water Quality: An Area Study of Multicounty Site in Florida/Georgia"? Q Okay. A That was a staff paper that Ms. Purvis, a student of mine, prepared part of that contract. Q But it did not address the Everglades' area. A No, it's in the southeastern coastal plains, which is that area that runs through Alabama, north Florida, Georgia, where they have the peanuts and soybeans. Q Okay. Let me back up and tell you what I want. MR. SAXE: Let's check them off on this copy. THE WITNESS: Okay. BY MS. STINSON: Q If you have already given them to me, just let me know that they're in here. A Okay. Q Because I forgot what you told me you have given me. The documents that you have, with respect to the biogeochemical behavior, et cetera, the grant for the South Florida Water Management. A Okay. I'm not even sure they're on here. Q Well, it's under Grants and Contracts, rather than under. . . A Yeah, but I don't think those reports are listed as a publication, but I can get those for you. Q Okay. A So you want the final reports. Q Okay. I think you indicated that number eight, under Grants and Contracts, you have given me "Comparative Assessment of BMPs and Phosphorus Control Strategies for the Lake Okeechobee Basin." That's something that's in this pile? A Right. Q Okay. A There are two papers that relate to that work. Q Okay. Similarly, number twelve, under Grants and Contracts, is in here, the LOADSS information? A Well, number eight actually was the main grant that LOADSS was developed under. Q Okay. A And number twelve was another contract to add dimension to the LOADSS model, this "Graphic Interface" is one aspect of that. Q Okay. A So the two papers that I have in there describe the whole system that has the graphic interface part of the LOADSS system. Q Okay. A There is a user's guide ÄÄ draft user's guide available for that, called the Log-In, Lake Okeechobee Graphic Interface, something like that. Q Okay. A The first thing you do, when you do computer modeling, is you come up with an acronym. Q Right. A But there is a draft user's guide for that, if you would be interested, and it's designed for someone to sit down and make sure you hit this key and this is what's going to happen here. Q All right. A And that can be provided, if you're curious. Q Yes, please, the User's Manual. Okay. The chapter on "Florida's Experience with Managing Nonpoint Source Phosphorus Runoff into Lake Okeechobee." A That's been provided. Q Okay. Looking now on page 3, "The Implications of Reliability Theory for Environmental Institutional Design and Decision Making." A Yes. Q I would like a copy of that. A Okay. Q I think that does it on the copies. Were both your Bachelor's and Ph.D. within the economics departments? A My Bachelor's was a double major and agricultural business was sort of the primary one, which was administered through the economics department. Q Okay. A I also got a joint major in farm operation, they called it at that time, which was more practical, a multidisciplinary one, but I was advised, through the economics department, because of my agricultural business primary major and also Ph.D. was from the economics department. It was a joint department there at Iowa State. Q Okay. Let me next go through these documents, and some of these you have already explained to me. Okay. I have one here titled, "GIS Based Decision Support System for Regional Environmental Planning." Is that work that you did in conjunction with South Florida Water Management District? A That's correct. MR. SAXE: Let me take a look at what you're looking at. BY MS. STINSON: Q All right. The one right under it is called, "Lake Okeechobee Agricultural Decision Support System." Are these pretty much the same document? A This was, I forget the date on that one, but this was done two years ago, this was an earlier report on the model, and this was just completed in December. Q Okay. A And it's sort of an update of this model. Q So the one. . . A They're very similar, but this one is the more recent, the more up-to-date. Q Okay. So that the record will understand, you say the more up-to-date is the one titled, "A GIS Based Decision Support System. . ." et cetera? A Correct. Q Okay. MR. SAXE: Have you already tagged these or otherwise indicated that these are the ones that you want copies of? MS. STINSON: I have. MR. SAXE: All right. Fine. MS. STINSON: I'm just identifying and confirming some things here. MR. SAXE: All right. BY MS. STINSON: Q The one entitled "Florida's Experience with Managing Nonpoint Source Phosphorus Runoff," you did in conjunction for your work with the water management district; is that correct? A That work was not a part of the formal contract. That was done for ÄÄ as sort of an invited contribution to a regional research committee. Q Is it based on the work that you did for the South Florida Water Management District? A Some of it and some of it is based on work that was done for Dairy Farmers, Incorporated, on the Dairy Rule. Q Okay. A So it's really more of a historical, you know, for people who hadn't lived twenty years down there: Here's what happened. Q Okay. A Background. Q Okay. A This was not a contractual product. Q All right. The document entitled "The Economic Impact of the Dairy Rule. . ." et cetera, that was funded by the Florida Dairy Industry; is that correct? A That's correct. Q Okay. I was told recently that you were quoted in the most recent Florida Trend. Is that related to the work that you did for the Florida Dairy Industry? A Yes, that's correct. Q Okay. And that work would be reflected in this paper I just showed you? A Yes. Q Okay. MR. SAXE: Clarification. Your question was, that the work would be reflected in that paper? MS. STINSON: My question was, was the interview that he had with Florida Trend relative to the work he did for the Florida Dairy Industry. MR. SAXE: Okay. MS. STINSON: Which is the work ÄÄ the work he did for the Dairy Industry is reflected in the paper titled "The Economic Impact of the Dairy Rule on Dairies in the Lake Okeechobee Drainage Basin." BY MS. STINSON: Q Is that correct? A Yes, that's correct. MR. SAXE: Thank you. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. A There's a companion report that I did not author, that that report refers to, that Mulkey and Clouser. Q Okay. A That was all part of that one contract. Q There's a document here, relatively new, June 1992, entitled "On the Use of Marketable Emission Credits to Help Preserve the Everglades: Observations and Suggestions." A Yes. Q Can you tell me the background for this work? A That was written in response to Dr. Hahn's proposal to use emission credits in the Everglades and I received a copy of his proposal and decided that it would be useful to provide some background on marketable emission permits and sort of, to some extent, critique that proposal and add some additional options that they might want to consider. Q Okay. A So that's where that came about. Q Is this work funded through a grant with the water management district? A No. Q Or anyone? A No. Q Simply used at the University of Florida. A With an interest in that area. Q Did anyone in particular request that you review Dr. Hahn or. . . A No, I just happened to get a copy and thought it was an interesting idea and decided I would write about it. Q Is this paper going to be published or is it published anywhere? A No. As it indicates, it's a staff paper, which is circulated without formal review. Q Okay. A And there's no follow-up plans to publish it. Q Have you made any presentations based on this work? A I participated in ÄÄ what do they call it ÄÄ it's district organized, a workshop, and invited Dr. Hahn and Dr. Dendy and myself down, I believe it was in September. Q Okay. A And we sort of had an informal discussion of the concept and took questions from the audience and that part of my comments at that meeting were based on this work and some additional thinking and review that I had in preparation for that meeting. Q Okay. There's a report here called "Cost and Returns for Rice Production on Muck Soils in Florida in 1992." Was this done through any grant or contract? A That's Dr. Alvarez' work, not mine. Q Correct. Is he in your department? A He's an economist and he's stationed at Belle Glade. Q Okay. A Technically he's been reassigned to the Belle Glade station. Previously he was part of the department. Q Okay. A But I think formal, administratively, he reports to the Belle Glade station and not to the chairman. Q Okay. A But he's tenured in our department. Q Okay. Do you know if this work was done pursuant to any contract or grant or. . . A I don't know. Q Or why it was done? A I know it was done, through reading the preface, because he was being asked a lot of questions about the cost of rice production. . . Q Okay. A . . .by various consultants and government officials. Q Okay. A I only know what he states in the comments about why he did that. Q Does that mean then that you had no role in developing this document? A No, no role. Q Okay. Similarly, a much older document, "Effective Prior Rice Culture on Sugar Cane Yields in Florida," did you have any role in that document? A No, I did not. Q Okay. Here's a document entitled "The Economic Impact of the Dairy Industry in Okeechobee County, Florida," by Mulkey and Clouser. Was that related to your work on that same issue? A Right, that was a companion report that was prepared under the Dairy Farmer's contract. Q Okay. Mulkey and Clouser are also professors in your department? A That's correct. Q Okay. Another document by Dr. Alvarez, "Cost and Returns for Sugar Cane Production on Muck Soils in Florida in 1991." Do you have any role in that document? A No, I didn't. MS. STINSON: Off the record. (Thereupon, a discussion was had off record; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) BY MS. STINSON: Q A document entitled "The Economic Impact of the Florida Sugar Industry," by Mulkey and Clouser. Did you have any role in the preparation of that document? A No, I didn't. Q Okay. MR. SAXE: Let me locate where you are in the copies back here. (Thereupon, a discussion was had off record; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. There are a series of what looks like newsletters, "Food and Resource Economics: Sugar Policy Series." Is that a regularly produced document? A I think that's a complete set of those. Q Okay. A You know, that I'm aware of anyway, and it was fairly regular there for a while, but I don't know if they're still continuing it or not. Q Did you have any role in the production of these documents? A No, I did not. Q But, to your knowledge, that is no longer ongoing? A The last one here that I know of is July '92. Q Okay. A So I don't know of any since then. Q Okay. A But. . . Q Well, I notice the one before that, number seven was July '92 and number six is May '91. Am I correct in assuming that there wasn't one between May '91 and July '92? A To my knowledge there wasn't one. Q Okay. There's a document entitled, "Supply Response of the Florida Cane Sugar Industry and Related Policy Implications." Did you have any role in that document? A No, I did not. Q You did not have any role in the depositions. A No. Q Okay. Here's, stapled together, a series of graphs and what looks like might be papers for overhead presentation. The first graph says, "CST Response for Hypothetical Crop." Can you tell me what that document is? A I'm not exactly sure. This was or this is part of an analysis of BMPs. Q Did you do the work? A I didn't do the work. This was provided to me and I'm trying to remember who provided it and I'm not sure whose work it is. Q Is it somebody within IFAS? MR. SAXE: May I see the original. It's possible that these were broken off from something else in the copying process. MS. STINSON: It was on top of that. MR. SAXE: Right. Okay, thank you. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. A I think, just looking at it, I'm not sure, but I think it's part of the voucher that Bottcher and Izuno ÄÄ they're both people in IFAS. Q Okay. A But it doesn't say who did it, but that would be my best educated guess at this moment. Q Okay. The next document is similarly a series of graphs and perhaps something for overhead slides, entitled "Individual Event Concentration PZ," is that your document? A No. Q Do you know what it is? A I believe it's a companion document to the one we just talked about. Q Okay. When you indicated that you thought those two graph compilations were part of Bottcher and Izuno's work, is that related to "The Procedural Guide for the Development of Farm Level Best Management Practice Plans. . ." et cetera, by Bottcher and Izuno? A To the best of my knowledge, yes, that's all part of that same effort. Q Okay. A There may be multiple contracts, I'm not quite sure what the arrangements were with the district. Q Did you have any participation in that one? A No. Q Did you have any involvement in the development, review or analysis of the BMP Rule? And when I say that, do you know what I'm talking about? A Not for sure, no. Q Okay. Rule of the water management district relating to the reduction in the emission of phosphorus off of the EAA. A No. MR. SAXE: A limited objection. This question may exceed the scope of discovery to the extent it inquires into work that Dr. Boggess has done as a non-testifying expert consultant for the United States. Dr. Boggess has been listed, for protective purposes, in the event that economic impact issues are determined to be relevant in the proceeding by the hearing officer, but absent a ruling to that effect, it's presently the United States' position that there are no economic impact issues in the case. So at this juncture the United States neither expects nor intends to present any testimony through Dr. Boggess concerning the matters for which he has been retained as an expert consultant. So I'm going to instruct the witness to answer the question only to the extent that he can do so outside the context of his work as a non-testifying expert consultant, based either on work done before he was retained, work done independent of the consultancy or any information that you might present to him in a hypothetical form today. MS. STINSON: Okay. You've confused me. Okay. I only asked if he was involved in the development or review of the BMP Rule. MR. SAXE: I understand. MS. STINSON: And I think he's already answered and said no. MR. SAXE: No. MS. STINSON: Let me. . . BY MS. STINSON: Q Is that correct, you were not involved? A I was not involved in the development of the rule. Q Okay. Were you involved in analyzing or reviewing that rule? A Prior to its implication? Q Anytime. When it was being developed or afterwards, did you talk to people at the water management district about the BMP practices for the EAA? A No, no interaction outside the scope of discussions with counsel. Q Okay. I just want to know what involvement you had, if any, not the substance of any discussion you may have had with counsel, but your last answer leads me to believe that you have had some participation, you have looked at that rule and you have had discussions about your analysis of the BMP Rule; is that correct? MR. SAXE: Object to the form. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. You can answer. A Yes, we have had ÄÄ we have talked about the essence of the BMP Rule. Q Okay. A And what some of the implications may be. Q Okay. You say "we," you mean who? A Counsel. Q For the United States? A For the Justice Department. Q Okay. So that I'm clear, your review would be from an economic or was that from an economic standpoint? MR. SAXE: Objection. I have instructed the witness not to answer concerning his activities as a non-testifying expert litigation consultant and I'm instructing the witness to answer only to the extent that he can do so based on work done independently of his work, as a non-testifying expert litigation consultant, for the United States. MS. STINSON: Well, let me ask you a question. Is this a non-testifying litigation consultant in these DOAH proceedings that we're here on the deposition here today? MR. SAXE: Absolutely. MS. STINSON: Okay. BY MS. STINSON: Q Let me ask you this, Dr. Boggess. Your review and comments or opinions on the impact of the BMP Rule, are those related to economic or potential economic impact of the Everglades' Restoration Program, the Everglades' SWIM Plan? MR. SAXE: Do you understand the question? THE WITNESS: Sort of, but I don't know how to proceed. MR. SAXE: Could you restate the question. MS. STINSON: Okay. BY MS. STINSON: Q Let's see if I can do it in a more direct way. You answered a previous question by saying you have had discussions about the implications of the BMP Rule. A Yes. Q Do those implications affect or could they affect the economic consequences of the Everglades' Restoration Program? A Yes, I would say that it was the nature of those discussions. MS. STINSON: Okay. In that case, Mr. Saxe, he has been identified to speak about the economic impacts of the Everglades' Restoration Program, so insofar as the BMP Rule affects the economic impacts of the Everglades' Restoration Program, I think I'm entitled to inquire as to that relationship. MR. SAXE: Okay. Let me explain my objection. I'll address that. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: It's a prematurity problem and perhaps ultimately an entire relevancy problem, but because the matter is pending before the hearing officer now, it's most easily, I think, discussed as a prematurity problem. Our position is that Dr. Boggess is listed on the United States' witness list for protective purposes, in the event that matters now pending before the hearing officer are determined in such a way that economic impact issues are determined relative. MS. STINSON: Correct. MR. SAXE: At this juncture, Dr. Boggess is not a testifying expert witness, in the sense that the United States neither expects nor intends to present any testimony to Dr. Boggess on those issues. So at this juncture, in that capacity, he is a non-testifying expert consultant and not subject to discovery in the line of questions that you may be pursuing. That is the line that I'm trying to draw here. What I've suggested is ÄÄ my instruction to the witness not to answer a question, based on the scope of discovery, is limited to the witness' work, if any, as a non-testifying expert consultant. So to the extent that Dr. Boggess can answer any question you ask, based on the work he did before he was retained or work he's done since, independent of his expert consultancy or information that you might present to him today in the form of a hypothetical, then that would be outside of my instruction to the witness not to answer. Anything else would be within the instruction not to answer. MS. STINSON: Okay. Are you telling me then, for example, that if you asked him to look at the Hezen and Sawyer report and tell you what he thought of it, that I'm not entitled to inquire into that, unless he had done it independently of this litigation? MR. SAXE: Not quite, but close. I won't say that you're not entitled to inquire into the fact of that relationship. MS. STINSON: But the substance. MR. SAXE: But the substance, yes. MS. STINSON: So. . . MR. SAXE: Any opinions formed, materials considered, grounds for opinions, would all fall, at the present time, under the rule brick of facts, opinions and grounds of a non-testifying expert consultant retained in anticipation of litigation under the Florida Rules of Civil Procedure. MS. STINSON: So, if, in fact, the hearing officer rules that economic issues are relevant, and I understand it's your position that they are not. . . MR. SAXE: Right. MS. STINSON: . . .then I need to come back and redepose Dr. Boggess to get the substance of his opinions on the economic effects of the Everglades' Restoration Program, because you are not going to let him tell me what those opinions are now. MR. SAXE: Well, I won't say that you would need to come back and redepose him, that certainly would be your exercise of discretion, but I will not presently instruct him ÄÄ I will instruct him presently not to answer the question that you just described. MS. STINSON: Okay. And you acknowledge that if those issues are made relevant, by order of the hearing officer, that I am entitled then to come back and depose him on what his opinions are on the economic impacts of the Everglades' Restoration Program, because you're not allowing him now to testify to get his opinions developed for this litigation. MR. SAXE: Yes. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: Let me clarify that. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: To the extent that it would fall within the scope of his expected or intended testimony as an expert witness, and that's defined by the characterization in the United States' supplemental witness list designation, and to the extent it was within the scope of discovery, certainly that material would be fair material for discovery. MS. STINSON: But at this point it is not. MR. SAXE: At this point it is ÄÄ like I said, it's either premature or it's never going to be, depending on the determination of the hearing officer. MS. STINSON: Okay. For future references, I presume that will be the United States' position on all your economic witnesses. MR. SAXE: United States' position concerning economics, as articulated in the briefing rounds and arguments to date, has been that there's a very limited relevancy of economics. We have identified several arguable economic elements that are properly addressed in these proceedings and that is the presence in the SWIM Plan of a reasonable estimate of actual costs and the presence in the SWIM Plan of an adequate identification of sources of funding, but beyond that, in terms of economic impact issues, cost justification issues, et cetera, et cetera, the United States' position is that those matters are not properly at issue, they're not relevant in these proceedings, and that does apply to all the witnesses that you might characterize as economic experts listed by the United States. They all have been listed in their protective conditional format for that reason. MS. STINSON: Okay. Let me just state on the record that as this is discovery, and pending resolution of those issues by the hearing officer, it's my position that I should be entitled to discover in the event those become part of this proceeding, and that should the economic issues become part of this proceeding that I would intend to ask for attorney's fees for the cost of redeposing Dr. Boggess. MR. SAXE: I understand your position. I don't agree with it. MS. STINSON: Obviously. Okay. Just so you know. I've probably said this ten times, but I want it real clear on the record. Your position is, at this point, that you will object to any questions from me to Dr. Boggess, instruct him not to answer, as to his opinions developed for this litigation on the subject of economic impacts of the Everglades' Restoration Program, because at this point you say he is a non- testifying expert. . . MR. SAXE: I will object to any questions that inquire into the opinions held by Dr. Boggess in preparation for these proceedings in anticipation of litigation, period, because he sits here today as really not a testifying expert witness, subject to discovery under the Rules of Civil Procedure. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: But because we have the difficulty of a pending motion and the coordination between the timing, the deadline requirements for listing witnesses, when there is pending ÄÄ the question of the proper scope of discovery, we have a coordination problem, and this is one of the reasons I suggest to you that the efficiency of this discovery is going to be well-served if we revisit the timing question of these economics expert depositions. MS. STINSON: We may revisit it with the hearing officer. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. Just back with questions on the documents, Dr. Boggess. There are two publications here from the USDA. One entitled, "Latin America's Big Three Sugar Producers in Transition: Cuba, Mexico and Brazil." The other one, "The World Sugar Market Government Intervention and Multilateral Policy Reform." Did you have any role in the preparation of either of these documents? A No, I didn't. Q Okay. Have you used them in any work that you have done? A No, I haven't. Q Actually, there's a third one, "Sugar Background for 1990 Farm Legislation." Did you have any role in that document? A No. Q Again, there's a stack in a rubber band called "Agriculture Outlook Conference of the USDA," various papers on sugar and sweeteners. A Yes. Q Did you have any role in that conference? A No, I did not. Q Can you tell me why you have these documents? A They were given to me. Q Why would they be given to you? Let me ask you, who gave them to you? A Ron Buznell ÄÄ Pete Buznell gave them to me. Q Who is he? A He's the author on some of them. He's with ERS-USDA. Q Okay. A In the sugar branch. Q Do you know why he gave them to you? A Well, I was collecting information on sugar. Q Is that in conjunction with your work in this litigation? A Correct. Q Okay. Okay. You have here what I call the Hezen and Sawyer report. A Yes. Q Have you reviewed that report? A Yes, I have. Q And I understand your attorney will instruct you not to answer if I ask you if you have any opinions on it or what your opinions are, but let me ask you this: Have you formed opinions with regard to the work done in the Hezen and Sawyer report? MR. SAXE: Same objection and same instruction. I don't think that's a proper inquiry of a non-testifying expert consultant, even whether the expert has opinions. MS. STINSON: Well, we'll be back. MR. SAXE: Counsel, it's not my intent to frustrate your questions and so I did indicate, and let me repeat that, to the extent that the witness has opinions or can testify to facts or information or other matters outside the context of his expert consultancy, I'm not going to instruct him not to answer, based on the scope of discovery, and that would include, as I see it, the ability to present information to him as an expert, in the form of a hypothetical question, should you desire to do so, as well as, as I indicated, any and all work he's done before he was retained, his background. MS. STINSON: Well, it's real difficult to form hypotheticals if I don't know what it is he's formed opinions on. I would be shooting in the dark. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. There's correspondence in here to you from the Environmental Defense Funding, enclosing their analysis and suggested modification of the South Florida Sugar Cane League's proposal to remedy the Everglades' pollution problem. How is it that you came to be sent that information? A I believe that was sent to me when the Environmental Defense Fund found out about the workshop that the district had set up and they invited Dr. Hahn and myself and Dr. Dendy, and that arrived in the mail with a couple of letters saying: Here's our position, we hope you have a chance to look at it before the workshop on Tuesday. It was sort of unsolicited. Q Okay. There's also a series of documents clipped together, the first page: "Marketable Permit Issues for Discussion." It looks like they were printed up to be overhead. Is this something that you prepared? A Yes. Q Was that for that September meeting that you just mentioned? A That's correct. Q Okay. The next one, the document called "Marketable Permit Issue for Discussions." Is that also notes that you prepared for that meeting? A That's correct. That's an outline. Q That document is dated September 28th, 1992. Is that the date of the meeting? A I'm not exactly sure what date the meeting was. It was near there. Q Okay. A You know, give or take a day or two. Q Okay. There's a document from Dr. Hahn to Tom McVickor, enclosing a response to your analysis of his proposal, correct? A That's correct. Q And there are some handwritten notes in the margin. Are those your notes? A That's correct. Q And the document entitled "A Market Base Approach for Preserving the Everglades," by Robert W. Hahn. Is that the proposal that you reviewed? A Yes. Q And that proposal and your review were discussed in the September '92 meeting? A Actually I believe that one is the overheads off Dr. Hahn's proposal. Q Okay. A That he presented at that same meeting. Q Okay. A And there was one stuck on the back. Q Right. A Okay. Q Dr. Boggess, apart from your consulting work in connection with the challenge to the SWIM Plan, the litigation involving the challenge to the SWIM Plan, have you done any work in reviewing the SWIM Plan or the economic analysis of the SWIM Plan or the projects proposed to allegedly restore the Everglades? A I have not done anything with respect to reviewing the SWIM Plan itself. I did meet with Dr. Johns when she first began her work. She came up to Gainesville and met with a number of us in the department to discuss a plan of work, how she anticipated going about it, gathering up publications that might be relevant. Q Okay. Did you meet with Dr. Johns? A Yes. Q And can you tell me the substance of her discussions, the best you can recall, and how much time you spent? A We spent two or three hours. She had ÄÄ that time she had a series of overheads that she had been using to go around and talk with various groups to explain what her tasks were and how she anticipated going about achieving those tasks, and so she went through those as a way of sort of briefing us on what she had planned and soliciting any suggestions we might have on key people she should talk to or data sources or references, or what have you. So she was asking for input on how best to proceed. Q And after that meeting, did you have any involvement with her in the development of their review? A I was instrumental in her obtaining the Flipsim computer model. Q Okay. Was it you that suggested that she use the model in the analysis? A That had been used in the Okeechobee study and they inquired about it. We discussed sort of the pluses and minuses of using it. Q When you say instrumental in helping her get that model, what did you have to do to get it? A Initially we suggested that she call Dr. Richardson and see if he wanted to be involved. He said he was too busy at the time to be directly involved, but that we had the model there at Florida, we being Dr. Holt, who worked with Dr. Richardson and myself. Q Identify for me Dr. Richardson. A James Richardson, Texas A&M University. Q Okay. You say it had been used in the Okeechobee work. Did you use it in conjunction with your work? A Yes, I did. Q And you discussed the pluses and minuses of using it for Dr. Johns' work. Can you tell me what the pluses and minuses of using that model are? A The biggest minus is that it's not directly designed to do what she needed to have done and it's a fairly data-intensive and somewhat awkward model to use. It uses the old Fortran punch card style of data entry. You don't actually use punch cards anymore, but the input form that you create is eighty characters long, like the punch cards were, and different columns have ones and zeros and stuff in them, and so it's ÄÄ I told her that it takes a lot of effort to, you know, to run that model and I wasn't sure that it was worthwhile, given what they were wanting to do with it. So that was the biggest minus. Q Okay. A She was lucky, she has Chris Meline, who's a crack computer programmer, so they felt that they could handle that part of it. Q Okay. A The plus side, and I think one of the reasons she considered it, was that she didn't have to worry about writing her own spreadsheet or other computer package to do what she wanted done and then worry about all the verification and checking that needs to be done anytime you create your own analytical package. Q Okay. A So that was the nature of the discussions. Q You say one of the biggest minuses was that it was not directly designed to do what she wanted to do. What was it designed to do, as compared to what she wanted it to do? A Flipsim is designed to simulate a specific farm, where you have data about that farm's specific financial situation; its enterprises, the actual acreage of each of those enterprises; particular financial situation of the farms, as far as in terms of debt, insurance rate, specific tax information relative to type of business entity, whether it's private, sole proprietorship or corporation, or whatever it is. So it's designed to simulate an individual farm with specified characteristics. Q Okay. Are you saying that because she was doing an area-wide assessment that it didn't really fit? MR. SAXE: I'm going to renew my standing objection and standing instruction, with the understanding that the witness is only instructed not to answer with respect to facts, grounds and opinions developed in the context of the expert non-testifying consultancy, and is otherwise not instructed not to answer. MS. STINSON: Okay. It's my understanding that this is some involvement he had prior to being involved in the litigation. MR. SAXE: I think your initial question certainly did qualify itself so that it was limited to his work outside the context of the consultancy, but we're now verging into opinions and views concerning Flipsim, et cetera, and there may be some fine line drawing there concerning material that predates Dr. Boggess' retention on this case and work done since he was retained. MS. STINSON: Okay. Let me clarify then. BY MS. STINSON: Q Dr. Boggess, when were you retained by Justice to be involved in this litigation? A I don't know the exact date, but it was late August. MS. STINSON: If you could answer that. MR. SAXE: I won't testify for the witness and. . . MS. STINSON: Sure, but if you can help me out. Was it late August, do you know? MR. SAXE: I really am not in a position to say. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. A I don't know the exact date, but late August. Q Late August? A Or early September, somewhere in there. Q And when did you meet with Dr. Johns? A Again, I'm not sure, but it was probably in March. Q Okay. Prior to the time you were retained? A Right, correct. Q And at that time, when you talked to Dr. Johns, you talked about the pluses and minuses of the Flipsim model. A Yes. Q So at that time you knew what it was designed to do, because you had used it before. A Right. Q And you knew what she intended to do. A Right. Q Okay. Back to my question. You indicated that it was designed to be used on a farm-specific basis. My question was, you're saying then that it wasn't designed to do what she wanted it to do, because she was doing an area-wide analysis; is that correct? A That's correct. Q Now, when you used it on your Okeechobee work, were you doing a farm-specific analysis? A That's correct. Q Okay. Did you have discussions ÄÄ I presume you did, with Dr. Johns, between the time of your meeting in March and the time the report was prepared? I don't know when it was, it's in here somewhere. MR. SAXE: Are you asking about conversations with Dr. Johns after Dr. Boggess was retained as an expert consultant? MS. STINSON: No. BY MS. STINSON: Q Prior to the time you were retained and in conjunction with your work at the University in providing information to Dr. Johns, did you have discussions with her after March? A We had, I don't know how many, but a few phone conversations. We didn't meet in person. . . Q Okay. A . . .after that time. She would occasionally call up and ask some question, you know, of one sort or another and ask if I knew the answer or who might have some information or how she might proceed. Q Okay. Did she provide to you any preliminary drafts of her report for you to review? A Yes, she did. Q Did you review and comment on those drafts? A I did a real quick review. I set up a seminar for her to come up and present it to the faculty. Q When was that, do you recall? A That would have been in middle to late July, I believe. Q Okay. A And she came and presented it to some of the faculty and graduate students in the department, but I was on vacation so I was unable to attend that, nor was I able to give her informal feedback on the report, because I left about the time she was getting to that point. Q Okay. Did you provide to her before then any comments or suggestions on a draft, preliminary draft? A No, I did not. Q Do you have a preliminary draft that she provided to you with comments that she may have made? A No, I don't. Q You say you did that, but. . . A I did, I had a preliminary draft, but I don't have it anymore. I got tired of carrying them all around. Q Okay. A So when I got the final I decided to get rid of the original. Q Did you send to her your comments at any time? A No. Q Did anyone, to your knowledge, at the University send her comments on. . . A I think the extent of the feedback, and I'm just surmising now, but as I understand it, she came up and gave a seminar and there was oral feedback at the seminar, discussion about it; but, to my knowledge, there was no written feedback, but she may have received something from someone who was there, but. . . Q Okay. Can you tell me, from the University, who was at that meeting? A No. Q Was there any record of that meeting? A I think Dr. Lynne was instrumental in actually making the final arrangement, because they had reschedule it after I left and, to my knowledge, he was the one who handled that. Q Okay. A Dr. Johns would obviously know as well who she talked about it with after I left. Q Okay. Prior to your retention by the Justice Department, did you form any opinions with regard to the methodology you used or the findings in the Hezen and Sawyer report? A No, I did not. Q Okay. When you met with her in March you say you talked about key people, data sources and references. Now, do you recall if there were people you suggested she talk to? A Yes. I can't remember everybody, but I remember ÄÄ and she already had most of the people on the list. I suggested Dr. Alvarez, who is sort of our sugar expert in Belle Glade. Q Okay. A I suggested that she talk to Dr. Mulkey and Clouser, since they had done earlier work on the economic impact with the sugar industry. Q Okay. A I referred her to Dr. Bottcher and Izuno, because I knew they had been doing some work on BMPs. Q Okay. Anyone else you recall? A Not that I recall. Q Okay. What about data sources? A Again, we talked about the cost of production survey work that USDA does. We also ÄÄ I mentioned in the context Dr. Alvarez, the work he does on the sugar production costs. I also suggested that she talk to Dr. Taylor. Q Who is he? A He's also in the department and he sort of coordinates the survey on cost returns on vegetables in various regions over the state and he has a series of publications on vegetable costs and production. Q Okay. A So I referred to those documents and to him, to talk about how they're collected. Q How about references, any other references? A No. The references would be to publications that I just talked about. Q Okay. Other than in your capacity as an expert retained by the Justice Department, have you done any work or do you have any opinions on the economic impact or effect of the Everglades' Restoration Project? A No, I haven't. Q Okay. MS. STINSON: Mr. Saxe, you told me you will object to even an answer or will not allow him to answer a question even if he has formed such opinions in his capacity; is that your position? MR. SAXE: I'm not sure that's what I said. I said, if I recall, in the context in which it arose, I said I would object to questions concerning whether he has formed opinions in his capacity as a non-testifying expert consultant. MS. STINSON: Well, will you allow him to ÄÄ I'll try it, I mean, this is beating around the bush. BY MS. STINSON: Q Have you, in your capacity as an expert retained by the Justice Department, formed any opinions with respect to the Hezen and Sawyer report? MR. SAXE: I'm going to object and instruct the witness not to answer the question. MS. STINSON: That's what I thought you told me. Okay. For the record, let me certify the question. BY MS. STINSON: Q Additionally, let me ask this follow-up question. Tell me what opinions you have with respect to the Hezen and Sawyer report. MR. SAXE: Objection, beyond the scope of discovery to the extent that it inquires into Dr. Boggess' work as a non-testifying expert consultant for the United States. Dr. Boggess has been listed by the United States for protective purposes only, in the event that the hearing officer determines that economic impacts are relevant in this proceedings. Absent a ruling to the contrary, the United States' position is that there are no economic impact issues in this proceeding. So at this juncture the United States neither expects nor intends to present Dr. Boggess' testimony or opinions concerning the matters regarding which he has been retained as a non-testifying expert consultant. The witness is instructed to answer only to the extent that he can do so outside the context of his work as a non-testifying expert consultant, based on either his work before he was retained, work independent of his consultancy, or any information that might be provided to him today in the form of a hypothetical. Please include that in the marked portion. MS. STINSON: Are you instructing him not to answer? MR. SAXE: I. . . MS. STINSON: I don't know if that was part of that speech or not. MR. SAXE: That was my instruction. MS. STINSON: Okay. BY MS. STINSON: Q Dr. Boggess, have you. . . MS. STINSON: Let's go off the record. (Thereupon, a discussion was had off record; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) BY MS. STINSON: Q Dr. Boggess, have you, in your capacity as an expert in this litigation, determined the extent of any economic impacts of the Everglades' Restoration Program? MR. SAXE: Same objection, same instruction. BY MS. STINSON: Q Have you, in that same capacity, reviewed or analyzed the methodology, assumptions, determinations and conclusions of the South Florida Water Management District or its designate concerning such impact? MR. SAXE: Same objection, same instruction. BY MS. STINSON: Q Dr. Boggess, in any capacity, other than as an expert retained by the Justice Department, have you determined the extent of any economic impacts of the Everglades' Restoration Program or made any assessments of the methodology, assumptions, determinations and conclusions of the South Florida Water Management District on that issue? A The only opinion that I would have on that would be in the initial discussions that I had with Grace. We had sort of a general agreement over the basic methodology that she proposed at that time. Q Okay. A So part of those discussions, but since then, no. (Thereupon, a short recess was had; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) MS. STINSON: Before we get back in the questioning, I forgot to say something at the beginning and I would like to put it on the record. Rick Burgess had planned to be here, his flight was cancelled, due to weather conditions throughout the state and there was no reasonable ÄÄ even the Orlando airport was closed he says. He will be sending out a letter, but he wanted me to put that on the record, that he didn't mind it going forward, but conceivably he could have to renotice at some point. MR. SAXE: Did he have a flight last night or this morning? MS. STINSON: This morning, which is why we set it at eleven, to accommodate for that. He tried to get a later flight, but the Orlando airport was closed. MR. SAXE: There's always a weather risk when you leave the flight until the morning of the deposition. BY MS. STINSON: Q Dr. Boggess, let me ask you some more questions about your pre-retention involvement in the Hezen and Sawyer report. You indicated that you were instrumental in getting the Flipsim model for Dr. Johns. Were you or the university compensated for giving her that program? A Yes. Q Was it you or the university? A The university was compensated. Q How much? A I think it was either twenty-five hundred or three thousand dollars. There was an agreement there. Q An agreement between the university and Hezen and Sawyer? A That's correct. Q I would like to get a copy of that as well. A Okay. MR. SAXE: Why don't you make a note on that list? BY MS. STINSON: Q Do you know what version of Flipsim she obtained? A No. Q Are there a number of versions? A Not that I know of. She has the version that we received from Dr. Richardson. Q Do you know when you received it from Dr. Richardson? A There's a date on this one publication that will tell me. Q Okay. A It would have been, I believe, sometime in the spring of '91. Q All right. And you obtained that in connection with your Okeechobee work, your dairy work? A Yeah, it was obtained as part of the Okeechobee work, but also there was a visiting professor from Texas A&M, who worked with Dr. Richardson, who was here doing some sabbatical work and he was using Flipsim at the same time. Q Who was that? A Dr. Bud Swart. Q Okay. Prior to transferring Flipsim to Hezen and Sawyer, did you obtain a release from Dr. Richardson or Texas A&M, or anyone there? A Dr. Holt, who is a colleague of mine, who spent a year working with Dr. Richardson and working with Dr. Swart when he was here. Q Okay. A Handled the negotiations with Dr. Richardson. Q Specifically before transferring it to Hezen and Sawyer? A That's my understanding. Q Okay. Was it you who suggested the use of Flipsim to Dr. Johns? A I don't remember exactly. I believe she inquired about it in the context of how we used it in the Okeechobee study. Q How would she have known that, do you know? A I don't know. She might have had copies of the publications on the Okeechobee work. Q Do those publications refer to Flipsim? A Yes. Q Okay. Did you know Grace Johns prior to involvement with her in the Hezen and Sawyer report? A Yes, I did. Q How was that? A She was a student in the department. Q When was that? A It would have been in the early or mid-'80s. She got a Bachelor's and a Master's degree. Q Were you her advisor on any committees that reviewed her work? A No, I was not. Q Had she been a student of yours? A Again, I would have to look to be sure. She might have taken my undergraduate class. I believe she took it. Q But you didn't know her? A I knew her, yes. Q Had you maintained contact with her over the years after she left the university? A Not really. Q Okay. You indicated that from March until the time you were retained by Justice that you had a few discussions with her about the report. You said she called with some questions. Do you remember what questions? A The nature of the questions were more on the lines of specific ways of running Flipsim, not with respect to the analysis or the reports. So the agreement was that we would provide the model and sort of troubleshooting. Q Is that written in the agreement between UF and Hezen and Sawyer? A Yes. Q Was that compensation then to cover some time in consulting on the use of the Flipsim model? A Essentially, yes. Q Did you speak with anyone at Hezen and Sawyer, beside Grace Johns? A Chris Meline. Q How often did you speak with him? A Once or twice a month, something like that, maybe. Q What was the nature of those discussions? A Again, they were specific with respect to the operation of Flipsim. Q All right. Do you know whether there is any written agreement between the University of Florida and Texas A&M regarding Flipsim? A Not to my knowledge. Q Was any of the compensation received by UF then sent on to Texas A&M? A No. To my knowledge, no. Q Approximately how much time did you spend between March. . . Well, approximately how much time did you spend consulting with Hezen and Sawyer, in the use of Flipsim, for the report they did? MR. SAXE: For clarification. Before retention? MS. STINSON: Well, whether before or after, but in conjunction with his work at the University of Florida, in consulting with Hezen and Sawyer. MR. SAXE: Thank you. BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. A I'll try to add it up. It was probably a total of two or three working days, total. Q And do you know how much time other members of your department or graduate students spent consulting with Hezen and Sawyer? A No. Q Did other people. . . A Other people did. Q All right. Specifically how many, do you know? A Dr. Holt spent some time meeting with them and also handled some of the phone questions. Q Okay. A And Rom Alderman, who was our systems programmer at the time, also spent some time specifically on issues, answering. . . Q Would there be any records, which would indicate the amount of time spent by members of the university in consulting on that report? A The only record that I know of would be a phone log that would indicate ÄÄ I have to keep a phone log of whoever I call, so it would be. . . Q It would not indicate if she called you or. . . A No, and no indication of how long. So it would be hard to say whether it was with respect to Flipsim or some other issue. That's the only paper trail that I know of. Q Do you know if there's any correspondence or any other documentation between the members of the university, Rom Alderman or Dr. Holt, or anyone else, on Hezen and Sawyer, with respect to the report? A Not to my knowledge. Q Okay. If those people had correspondence with Hezen and Sawyer, would you likely know, would you have been copied or. . . A I would expect I would have known. Q Okay. And you don't know of any. A I don't know of any. Q Did you have discussions with third parties, that is, not university, not Hezen and Sawyer people, about the Hezen and Sawyer work or the Flipsim model, apart from Justice's counsel? A Would you repeat the question? Q Maybe I can make it more clear. You indicated that you had talked to the people at Hezen and Sawyer and I presume you also talked with Dr. Holt and Rom Alderman about the work being done, correct? A Correct. Q Did you talk to anyone else about the work being done by Hezen and Sawyer? A I guess the only other conversations would have been in setting up with Dr. Lynne to have the seminar. Q Okay. A There I indicated to him that they had been doing this work. Q Dr. Lynne is with the university, correct? A Yes. Q Okay. Did you do any work in tracking down data sources or further information to provide to Grace Johns or anyone at Hezen and Sawyer? A No, I did not. Q Other than the compensation for the use of Flipsim, was the university or were any individuals at the university compensated in any way for the work done, with respect to the Hezen and Sawyer report? A No, not to my knowledge. Q You said you understood that Dr. Holt handled the negotiations with Dr. Richardson on Flipsim; is that correct? A That's correct. Q How did you come to have that understanding? A When we ÄÄ Dr. Holt met with Dr. Johns, Chris and I were there the first days she came up and he was in that part of the meeting and the issue of Flipsim came up at that meeting and at that time we suggested that she contact Dr. Richardson directly about Flipsim, but he indicated that he wouldn't have time and suggested that she work through us, and at that time I talked to Dr. Holt and he and I discussed it, since he worked with Dr. Richardson on sabbatical and knew him well, so he said: "I'll call Jim and talk to him about it." (Thereupon, a short recess was had; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) MS. STINSON: Where was I? MR. SAXE: Would you read the question and the answer, please? (Thereupon, last question and answer so read by reporter.) BY MS. STINSON: Q Okay. A I guess when I was hearing it, Doctor ÄÄ we had a meeting between Dr. Holt, Dr. Johns, Chris Meline and I, at least were all at that meeting, when the first issue of Flipsim came up. Q Okay. A We suggested, Dr. Holt and I suggested, to Dr. Johns, that she contact Dr. Richardson directly. Some time after that she indicated that Dr. Richardson had indicated his schedule was too busy to work directly with her and that she work back through the university, because we had a copy of the Flipsim model. At that time Dr. Holt and I discussed it and he was going to call Dr. Richardson and talk to him about our use of Flipsim in this particular situation. That's the extent of my understanding of that negotiation. Q Okay. At some point then I presume Dr. Holt came to you and said: I've talked to him and everything is okay. A Well. . . Q Who actually executed the agreement between Hezen and Sawyer and the university on Flipsim? A I guess ÄÄ my signature is on that, so technically it was between me and the department chairman. I can't remember exactly what else may be on there. Q Okay. A I did most of the negotiations with Dr. Johns. Q Okay. But at some point Dr. Holt came to you and said: I've talked to Jim Richardson and everything is fine. Or was there any correspondence on that? I mean. . . A I don't know of any correspondence. I think ÄÄ I'm trying to remember exactly ÄÄ to the best of my recollection, it would have been, since our offices are next door, we just had some discussions about it. I told him what they wanted to do and he indicated that that would be fine. Q Okay. Subsequent to your retention as an expert by the United States, but apart from that relationship, have you had any involvement with Hezen and Sawyer regarding the economic impact of the SWIM Plan or any involvement generally regarding the economic impact of the Everglades' Restoration Project? A No. Q Now, you indicated to me and provided to me documents regarding a meeting in September of '92, regarding a Dr. Hahn's proposal. A Yes. Q Can you explain to me that proposal? A Clarification of the content of the proposal? Q Yes. A The subject matter? Q Both. I mean ÄÄ yes. I don't know what it is, you tell me what it is. A Dr. Hahn had written a small ÄÄ a short paper that basically outlined how the concept of marketable permits or marketable emission credits could be used as a policy means of implementing the settlement agreement as an alternative to the way the settlement agreement was actually written, and he laid out this alternative approach in that proposal. Q Let me interrupt, make sure the record is clear. When you say settlement agreement, you mean the agreement between the United States Government and the State of Florida regarding the Everglades' Restoration Project and the federal lawsuit. A That's correct. Q Okay. A I'm not exactly clear on what is in the SWIM Plan and what's in the settlement agreement. Q Okay. A So I wouldn't want to argue about whether it was in one or the other, but basically it was a way of implementing that, he had an alternative approach that he proposed. Q Okay. And you got a copy of this proposal and because of your own interest and the work that you do at the university, you reviewed that and analyzed that, correct? A That's correct. Q Okay. And then in September there was a meeting with the water management district? A That's correct. Q Okay. A The water management district sponsored that meeting. Q Okay. I believe you indicated to me that you were not compensated by anyone in any way, other than your regular compensation through the university for the work that you did in reviewing that report; is that correct? A That's correct. Q And, for example, when you traveled to West Palm for the meeting, who paid those expenses? A It came out of one of my accounts. Q At the university? A At the university. Q You have different accounts? A Yes, from various ÄÄ if you have a contract you have an account for that. I get overhead money that is left over and I can use that to travel and things like that. Q Was this through any contract budget or. . . A I think this one was actually paid for out of the existing contract that I had with the water management district, because I met with the contracting agent while I was down there. Q All right. A In West Palm, anyway, so. . . I'm not sure on that. It may just have come out of my state allocation. I would have to go look and see. Q Okay. Do you know whether there are any minutes or any recording of that meeting? A There was no videotaping of the meeting. There was some. . . Q Was there audiotaping or. . A No, I don't believe there was any taping at all. Pete Rhodes supervised the meeting and he would have any records. The only record I know of is the copy of my overhead and Dr. Hahn's overhead and then I believe there's a summary of the public comment questioning round. I think someone took some notes on that. Q Okay. And though I have seen, obviously I have not had time to review, your analysis of Dr. Hahn's proposal, can you tell me generally what your analysis was, what your opinions are on that proposal? A My general opinion was that the concept is a useful concept that we have been promoting, concept of using market mechanisms for environmental pollution situations and we have been trying to get DER and the water management district to consider those. Q "We" being? A The University of Florida and my colleagues there in the economics department. So that spawned by interest when I saw this proposal, my decision to write on it. My initial reaction to Dr. Hahn's proposal was that it was not complete enough to really lay out all the pros and cons or advantages and disadvantages, and I wrote that sort of to add some additional issues that might need to be considered to debate on the concept, and then also came up with some suggestions based on my knowledge of the EAA about how I thought this particular proposal might be approved and might be implemented in that specific concept. Those were the major thrusts of that. Q And those suggestions and recommendations are somewhere in this documentation that you have given me today? A The one staff paper that you have, I think it's dated April of '92, the one on marketable permits, lays out my reaction, the pros and cons, and also lays out the outlines of my suggestions on how it might be implemented within the EAA. Q Okay. Have you reviewed the economic impact or effects of some kind of marketable emissions credits type system, as compared to what is currently in the SWIM Plan or settlement agreement? MR. SAXE: Clarification? BY MS. STINSON: Q As part of your work at the university, apart from being an expert. . . A No, I haven't. Q Did you, in reviewing Dr. Hahn's proposal, did you look at the economic effects of that proposal? A I looked at the ÄÄ he had some tables in there, and I'm trying to remember what is in there, that had some economic dimensions to it. You know, I looked at what he had in his report, but did no other calculations on my own. Q Okay. Did your analysis in that work include any comparison of either the costs or any economic effects of Dr. Hahn's proposal, as compared to the costs or economic effects of the SWIM Plan? A No. Q Dr. Boggess, what have you been retained by Justice to do? A I have been retained to provide peer review and expert consulting on the economic impact study done by Hezen and Sawyer. Q What do you mean by peer review in this instance? A As a professional economist, basically reviewing it from a peer review standard, whether or not accepted theoretical constructs and appropriate methodologies. MR. SAXE: Would you mark this section, please, of the transcript. (Thereupon, a short recess was had; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) BY MS. STINSON: Q All right. A Can I expand on that? Q Sure. A In the current scope of work that I have been retained under, I have been asked to provide consulting on any economic dimension of the settlement agreement or the SWIM Plan, which I have professional expertise, and that includes possible testimony. Q Have you been asked to do an independent analysis of the economic effect of the SWIM Plan? MR. SAXE: Objection ÄÄ same objection and same instruction. I think, counsel, you can ask about the general contours of the scope of his retention, but when you get into specific tasks I think you're in work product territory and attorney/client territory and I'm going to have to instruct the witness that until he is a testifying expert on those matters there's a scope of discovery problem with him being questioned on what he's doing in his capacity as a non-testifying expert consultant. MS. STINSON: Even with respect to the scope of his work? MR. SAXE: Like I said, the general contours of the scope of his work, the subject matter, that's one thing. But specific tasks I'm going to lodge that objection to, with respect to questions on specific tasks. MS. STINSON: And when I ask him if he's been asked to do an independent analysis of the economic effects of the SWIM Plan, you say that's a specific task? MR. SAXE: Yes. MS. STINSON: You're instructing him not to answer? MR. SAXE: Yes. MS. STINSON: Certify that question. BY MS. STINSON: Q Dr. Boggess, have you been provided with documentation or information with respect to your work as an expert, retained by the Justice Department, that you have not provided me today? MR. SAXE: Let me interject. Privileged work product, or otherwise protected material, has been pulled from this, pursuant to the discovery order in the case and the standing practice in the case, and you will be provided a privileged list of those documents, as provided by the discovery order and mutual agreement of all parties. I just wanted to clarify that. I'm sorry. Go ahead and you can answer that question. Would you repeat the question? Off the record. (Thereupon, a discussion was had off record; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) REPORTER: "Dr. Boggess, have you been provided with documentation or information with respect to your work as an expert, retained by the Justice Department, that you have not provided me today?" ANSWER BY WITNESS: Yes. MS. STINSON: Okay. Counselor, are the documents that he has not provided to me going to be on your privileged list? MR. SAXE: Yes. MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: Let me clarify. The witness, Dr. Boggess, was instructed to pull out all responsive documents to your Document Attachment to the Notice to Deposition. MS. STINSON: Right. MR. SAXE: From that universe of documents, certain documents were culled as privileged material, which will be included in a privileged list that you will be provided with in due course. I can't say that Dr. Boggess has found every responsive document, on the assumption that I believe Dr. Boggess made a careful search. So I just want to clarify that there are no documents that I am aware of that are responsive to your attachment, which will not be either provided today or listed on the privileged list. MS. STINSON: Or those few that we went through on his C.V. that he'll get to me soon, those articles. MR. SAXE: Well, some of them are not responsive documents. All the ones on here are, but you did also request another matter than we had not initially identified as responsive and I'm not prepared to say that it is responsive, but you've asked for it and he's going to pull a copy and I'll take a look to see if it's privileged, and otherwise we'll produce it to you. MS. STINSON: All right. Let me ask you this question. Have you pulled, as privileged, documents which if economics are relevant to this proceeding you will not consider privileged, or are they matters that would be privileged, in your opinion, under. . . MR. SAXE: There are likely instances of both categories, both documents that would be privileged regardless of a ruling that economic impacts are relevant in this proceeding, and documents whose privileged status would be altered by such a ruling. MS. STINSON: Okay. (To reporter) Would you mark that exchange between Mr. Saxe and myself as well. MR. SAXE: I would like to record for the record a limited objection to the Document Attachment to the Notice of Deposition, that I think the record responds to the thrust of your last question. The Document Attachment did refer to documents, considered consultant or otherwise, underlining Dr. Boggess' opinion, since Dr. Boggess' opinion right now is a matter that is not subject of discovery, under the view that he's a non-testifying expert consultant whose facts, grounds and opinions are not discoverable. That aspect of the attachment is objectionable and no responsive documents have been provided. . . MS. STINSON: Okay. MR. SAXE: . . .for that category of requests. BY MS. STINSON: Q Dr. Boggess, have you generically explained to me what it is you have been retained to do as an expert? As I recall, your answer was that you were retained to provide peer review and expert consulting with respect to the Hezen and Sawyer analysis of the economic impact of the SWIM Plan. A In addition to that I added that ÄÄ after the break ÄÄ that the scope of my work that I had been retained to do had been expanded to other issues of economic ÄÄ potential economic import in the SWIM Plan or settlement agreement. MS. STINSON: And, Mr. Saxe, is that as narrow as you will allow him to respond to that question of what he's been retained to do? MR. SAXE: Yes. MS. STINSON: Okay. (To reporter) Mark that, too. (Thereupon, a discussion was had off record; whereupon, the following proceedings were held:) MS. STINSON: I don't have any other questions. MR. SAXE: No questions. (Thereupon, the witness was excused and the deposition adjourned.) STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF ALACHUA I, Mary Macdonald, Court Reporter and Notary Public, State at Large, do hereby certify that the witness: DR. WILLIAM G. BOGGESS, was first duly sworn by me to testify the whole truth; that the foregoing deposition given by said witness was reported by me in stenograph, reduced to typewriting under my direct supervision; that the foregoing pages numbered 1 through 101, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate transcription of said proceedings. I further certify that the deposition was taken at 204 West University Avenue, Gainesville, Florida, on Wednesday, January 6, 1993, commencing at 11:00 a.m. I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for any of the parties; nor a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel connected herewith; nor am I financially interested in the event of the cause. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto affixed my hand and seal this 22nd day of January, 1993. ________________________________ Mary Macdonald Macdonald Court Reporting Service I N D E X SWORN TESTIMONY OF: PAGE: DR. WILLIAM G. BOGGESS Direct Examination by Ms. Stinson 7 EXHIBIT (attached): Petitioners' Exhibit No. 1 Dr. Boggess' r‚sum‚ 9 MARKED QUESTIONS: Page 47, line 10 Page 49, line 8 Page 60, line 7 Page 66, line 18 Page 75, line 2 Page 75, line 14 Page 77, line 7 Page 77, line 14 Page 95, line 24 Page 98, line 7 Page 100, line 23